# LIV Golf



## MarkT (Feb 22, 2022)

Phil the Thrill is stepping away from the game for a while

The below is an interesting read from Alan Shipnuck whose interview/biography chat with Mickelson derailed the Saudi Golf League

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition/


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2022)

He took z punt on a horse - pity it turned out to be lame.

However some his comments on the PGA ought not to be written off to quickly.


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## 4LEX (Feb 23, 2022)

His behaviour on and off the course has been bizarre for a few years now. All that 'Fireside with Phil' stuff and his huge money matches. His ego is writing cheques his golf can't cash and he had his head turned by easy money. He won't win another major or play in a Ryder Cup so he had nothing to lose.


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## howbow88 (Feb 23, 2022)

No Ryder Cup captaincy for him though, and the possibility of being banned from PGA Tour/Champions Tour for a period of time. Some are saying that this 'break' is actually a ban. That's what happened to DJ a few years back too, when he had some 'personal' issues to deal with. 

I have no sympathy for him at all. He tried to manipulate the PGA Tour for his own financial benefit, and did it in a very sneaky way. Unfortunately for him, he couldn't keep his mouth shut about it when talking to the journalist and now it has backfired hugely.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2022)

Dropped by long term sponser KPMG..
Thanks for the short game thrills Phil but....see ya.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Feb 23, 2022)

I am quite intrigued by Shipnuck's book. I've always found Phil a hard one to judge - exciting player, seems very positive with the fans and generous with tips but on the other hand there were the FIGJAM comments, insider trading, gambling, throwing Watson under the bus, this and some penalty issues.

I appreciate all of us aren't perfect, but I've never quite know whether he's one to warm to or be wary of.

Edited to add - definitely suspended by tour i reckon, we'll see him back at the Masters.


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## Depreston (Feb 23, 2022)

drdel said:



			He took z punt on a horse - pity it turned out to be lame.

However some his comments on the PGA ought not to be written off to quickly.
		
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like what ? The made up 20 billion they’re hiding … the way they nastily own his image rights so they can sell the product to tv


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 23, 2022)

Smacks of self protection https://www.skysports.com/golf/news...ments-and-says-he-is-taking-a-break-from-golf and trying to placate everyone he's upset without actually coming out and being totally sorry. There are lots of rumours that he's upset a lot of fellow pros and that he's got a lot of issues off the course (gambling debts). I don't think too many fellow pros will give him too much support and perhaps a break and dealing with whatever is clearly going on behind the scenes isn't a bad idea and then perhaps focus on the senior tour


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## evemccc (Feb 23, 2022)

Am I right in thinking if Shipnuck hadn’t released PM’s comments then the SGL would have had the 20 big names to launch and to torpedo the PGA Tour?

Is this all about Phil vs the Tour re: NFT’s? And did he have no intention of leaving, just wanted ‘leverage’ in NFT negotiations with the Tour?

If so, then surely it’s the SGL-committed 20 named who’d be hacked off with him, why would any other pros be?


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## Slab (Feb 23, 2022)

Dunno why but all the stuff he's coming out with put me in mind of a Del Boy/Trigger combo


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## BiMGuy (Feb 23, 2022)

It’s pathetic. 

He tries to paint himself as the hero, only apologies to the people he needs money from and the Saudis. Blames someone else for his comments. Then tries to paint himself as the hero and he was only thinking of others. Before blaming mental health issues. It’s the easiest cop out.

He was getting a ban, and this is his way of trying to save face.

He’s showing his true colours, and what was behind that fake smile for all these years.


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## phillarrow (Feb 23, 2022)

He's a funny one Mickelson. That languid walk, the miracle short game, always being the underdog against Tiger, all these things paint a picture of a people's champion. However, he just doesn't come across as very likeable. For me, the stuff he can't out with about Tom Watson was worse that this - legends of the game deserve more respect than public criticism. 
Mickelson is just an odd fish! 

The only thing I would say in his 'defence' is that I would hate to live my life in the spotlight the way he has, and it surprises me that more players don't end up stuffing things up like this.


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## sweaty sock (Feb 23, 2022)

This is a clear as day ban from pga.  

PR guys will have some work ahead...


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## Bazzatron (Feb 23, 2022)

Will somebody please think of the children of the other 19 players, they're struggling to be fed after all...


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2022)

Overplayed his hand rather a bit. I think a lot of people found Mickelson's comments about greed to be rather hypocritical. Isn't he the guy who got into, ahem, some difficulties with some rather colourful people involved in the gambling business? And who has been sanctioned more than once by the Tour for gambling? He has scooped up a ton of money from the Tour and ought to be very thankful. Mickelson has always had a reputation for being two-faced, smiling to the cameras and then a barsteward off them. The Don Johnson character in Tin Cup was thought to be inspired by him, and his nickname on Tour used to be FIGJAM, which means, paraphrasing, Flip, I'm Good, Just Ask Me. I would not miss him if he disappeared off to the Saudi Tour and their Trump courses. 

The Saudi Tour looks like it is only going to get players who can't really cut it any more on the PGA Tour. The reality is that Poulter, Westwood, Mickelson, Stenson and the like are probably never going to win again, so may as well cash in. The biggest US name still seemingly attached, after Mickelson, is Jason Kokrak, and he is planning a money grab and early retirement.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 23, 2022)

Depreston said:



			like what ? The made up 20 billion they’re hiding … the way they nastily own his image rights so they can sell the product to tv
		
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Most sporting bodies hold the image rights for the players - it’s pretty standard 

In regards Mickleson- most people have thought that he hid his true colours

He had no issue with the PGA when they gave him millions for social media Interactions 

No issues if he isn’t seen on the tour again


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## JamesR (Feb 23, 2022)

With the Saudi League scuppered, who's going to grow the game now?


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## evemccc (Feb 23, 2022)

Irrespective of anything else, I would be happy to see the current iteration of the PGA Tour taken down a peg or two. Would it not be desirable to see golf be like the ATP Tennis tour, which, relative to golf is truly global?

Instead of all its events in the US, wouldn’t it be good to see a few in Europe, SE Asia, Japan, Middle East as well as Mexico and North America. The Asian Tour, European Tour, and US Tour (Korn Ferry) could be feeder tours for the global PGA Tour

Obvs never going to happen!


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## phillarrow (Feb 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Irrespective of anything else, I would be happy to see the current iteration of the PGA Tour taken down a peg or two. Would it not be desirable to see golf be like the ATP Tennis tour, which, relative to golf is truly global?

Instead of all its events in the US, wouldn’t it be good to see a few in Europe, SE Asia, Japan, Middle East as well as Mexico and North America. The Asian Tour, European Tour, and US Tour (Korn Ferry) could be feeder tours for the global PGA Tour

Obvs never going to happen!
		
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100% yes in my opinion. I'd love to see this too... but you're right, it won't happen.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Irrespective of anything else, I would be happy to see the current iteration of the PGA Tour taken down a peg or two. Would it not be desirable to see golf be like the ATP Tennis tour, which, relative to golf is truly global?

Instead of all its events in the US, wouldn’t it be good to see a few in Europe, SE Asia, Japan, Middle East as well as Mexico and North America. The Asian Tour, European Tour, and US Tour (Korn Ferry) could be feeder tours for the global PGA Tour

Obvs never going to happen!
		
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Really? I think that is precisely what is going to happen. The PGA Tour has been trying to grow their brand, and have done deals with various Tours recently to support that.


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## MikeF86 (Feb 23, 2022)

Can't stand the bloke. Also came across (to me anyway) as selfish & egotistical. Chatting in a whatapp group about it yesterday and I found some messages from last year where i'd say he was my least liked golfer. Had his head turned by money when he's in a position to not need anymore. His 'apology' is just to try and save face which won't work. Loved how Rory ripped into him too.


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## pendodave (Feb 23, 2022)

A slight tangent from the Phil discussion, but I seem to remember that Shipnuck has history wrt taking off-the-record/overheard comments and stitching people up. There's something a bit smelly about him. Could just be that if you're an  investigative hack you don't end up with many friends I guess.
This is not intended as a defence of Phil btw!


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## sweaty sock (Feb 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Irrespective of anything else, I would be happy to see the current iteration of the PGA Tour taken down a peg or two. Would it not be desirable to see golf be like the ATP Tennis tour, which, relative to golf is truly global?

Instead of all its events in the US, wouldn’t it be good to see a few in Europe, SE Asia, Japan, Middle East as well as Mexico and North America. The Asian Tour, European Tour, and US Tour (Korn Ferry) could be feeder tours for the global PGA Tour

Obvs never going to happen!
		
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Selfishly, I'm quite happy with the events being 100% in America.  Means it's on TV in the evening. Golf tournaments in europe, I'm at work, and in asia I'm asleep.   If I'm not watching it, its has literally no meaning to me....


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 23, 2022)

Shooter McGavin.


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## rksquire (Feb 23, 2022)

'Stepping away from the game' is most likely code similar to DJs stepping away a few years back - everyone knew it was a sanction, just no-one officially said it.

There was an inevitability to this statement given how candid the pros were with their comments at the Genesis, people like Thomas surprised me and the repetition of certain words (egotistical) would indicate there had been behind the scenes discussion with the PGA essentially co-coordinating a strong public front.  Have to say, a great strategic move.

Couple of things standout though, he remains like Madrid or Juventus from the football Super League, offering to keep his toe in whilst at the same time suggesting it was for the good of the game and to stimulate change for the benefit of the players.  In terms of sanctions, I'd like to know what rules he broke (Disrepute?)

Coming out of it, the PGA looks stronger than ever, not so sure about the European Tour.  Commercially, and I know sponsors have left Phil, but the comeback will be bigger than the set back and milked by all parties. Would not surprise me if he has a 3 month sanction, lifted just in time for participation at the US Open with a chance at redemption in the form of completing the clean sweep.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 23, 2022)

I never really understand the media furore in such things, and the idea a golfer has to step away from the game to reflect on his behaviour. At the end of the day, he voiced his opinion at the time, lots of people didn't like it. Fair enough. However, he can stand by it, or he can apologise and/or say it was taken out of context, and thus clarify his position. He has done that. So, why not just get on with things? Stepping away from the game just intensifies it further.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Feb 23, 2022)

pendodave said:



			A slight tangent from the Phil discussion, but I seem to remember that Shipnuck has history wrt taking off-the-record/overheard comments and stitching people up. There's something a bit smelly about him. Could just be that if you're an  investigative hack you don't end up with many friends I guess.
This is not intended as a defence of Phil btw!
		
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I think he's willing to not sit on the fence and print a story even if not popular. 

He had the pushback from the Euro team regarding his bad take on US dominating the Ryder Cup before Paris, but generally on twitter the comments from other journalists say he's pretty meticulous on approach. Sounds to me that he'll be releasing confirmation that Phil clearly new it wasn't off the record.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2022)

I've never got this "on the record" or "off the record"
If you've said it, you've said it.....if you don't want it to be repeated..don't say it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I've never got this "on the record" or "off the record"
If you've said it, you've said it.....if you don't want it to be repeated..don't say it.
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496231307436859392


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## pendodave (Feb 23, 2022)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			I think he's willing to not sit on the fence and print a story even if not popular. 

He had the pushback from the Euro team regarding his bad take on US dominating the Ryder Cup before Paris, but generally on twitter the comments from other journalists say he's pretty meticulous on approach. Sounds to me that he'll be releasing confirmation that Phil clearly new it wasn't off the record.
		
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 Fair enough. It wasn't the Ryder cup thing I was thinking of. But what with recent events and that as well, searching the internet with his name is not helpful.
Unlike him, I'm just going on fading memory of an unverified source... not quite sure that meets any particular journo standards!


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## The Fader (Feb 23, 2022)

Whilst he (as have all pro's)  benefitted financially from "The Tiger Effect"  IMO he in his own mind suffered greatly. In any other era he would have been the main man, the world's best.

The only thing he has over Tiger - is oldest major winner and keeping that title is by no means certain.

I don't think he ever came to terms with that and this has led to his ever more erratic behaviour in recent years. Couple that with his gambling instincts and his inherent greed - its a dangerous mix.

But in all this, I do wonder whether he is over-valuing this media rights and has burnt his reputation and legacy on a false premise? Is there actually a vibrant market for Golfing NFT'S? 

I think the PGA tour is very much a case of the sum being greater than all the parts. They shouldn't forget this and all the other cases on his rap sheet (especially the unnecessary public slating of Tom Watson) and should tell him to take the Saudi money, if it's still available. But they won't unfortunately.

The biggest public sanction he will get will be being overlooked for the Ryder Cup captaincy.

Terrific golfer, badly flawed human being.


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## Depreston (Feb 23, 2022)

The Fader said:



			Whilst he (as have all pro's)  benefitted financially from "The Tiger Effect"  IMO he in his own mind suffered greatly. In any other era he would have been the main man, the world's best.

The only thing he has over Tiger - is oldest major winner and keeping that title is by no means certain.

I don't think he ever came to terms with that and this has led to his ever more erratic behaviour in recent years. Couple that with his gambling instincts and his inherent greed - its a dangerous mix.

*But in all this, I do wonder whether he is over-valuing this media rights and has burnt his reputation and legacy on a false premise? Is there actually a vibrant market for Golfing NFT'S?*

I think the PGA tour is very much a case of the sum being greater than all the parts. They shouldn't forget this and all the other cases on his rap sheet (especially the unnecessary public slating of Tom Watson) and should tell him to take the Saudi money, if it's still available. But they won't unfortunately.

The biggest public sanction he will get will be being overlooked for the Ryder Cup captaincy.

Terrific golfer, badly flawed human being.
		
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20 billion in digital assets! 20 billion man he's off his rocker


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## Region3 (Feb 23, 2022)

rksquire said:



			'
In terms of sanctions, I'd like to know what rules he broke (Disrepute?)
		
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Apparently was a part of the group that wrote the rules (for want of a better word) for the SGL. There’s probably other stuff as well but that’s definitely a no no.


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## howbow88 (Feb 23, 2022)

No Laying Up suggested any rule breaking would fall under 'Conduct Unbecoming'.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2022)

He has bit the hand that has fed him for many a year. He never engaged his brain before he opened his cakehole. His loss to the PGA tour is the PGAs gain. He will not be missed.


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## evemccc (Feb 23, 2022)

So apart from DJ and Bryson pledging allegiance to the PGA Tour, what has actually been said or has happened to make the whole SGL a non-starter?

Has Greg Norman or whoever is headed this thing said anything to admit defeat? And has PM decided to stick with the PGA Tour for definite (post-suspension)?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			So apart from DJ and Bryson pledging allegiance to the PGA Tour, what has actually been said or has happened to make the whole SGL a non-starter?

Has Greg Norman or whoever is headed this thing said anything to admit defeat? And has PM decided to stick with the PGA Tour for definite (post-suspension)?
		
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What I will find interesting is how other pros that are thinking of joining will view the backlash of what Phil is getting.


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## Jason.H (Feb 23, 2022)

How he threw Tom Lehman under the bus.


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## howbow88 (Feb 24, 2022)

evemccc said:



			So apart from DJ and Bryson pledging allegiance to the PGA Tour, what has actually been said or has happened to make the whole SGL a non-starter?

Has Greg Norman or whoever is headed this thing said anything to admit defeat? And has PM decided to stick with the PGA Tour for definite (post-suspension)?
		
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Bryson's statement was a little bit non-committal when you really analyse it, but let's put that to one side right now. 

There was a lot of talk about the SGL announcing all of their grand plans once they had 20 golfers signed up to it. Just over a week ago now, they hit that magic number and were ready to go, but then Shipnuck released the quotes from Mickleson. Those quotes were actually on a phone conversation from back in November. 

So it looks like Shipnuck was waiting on the perfect time to drop this bomb, and decided to do it before the official SGL coming out party... It's certainly been effective for publicising his book, but also in stopping the SGL in their tracks. 

Based on what was said, it looks like at the very least DJ and BDC decided not to jump ship, and maybe Phil was even told that he wasn't wanted any longer by the SGL? I cannot imagine that Saudi leaders would be happy with him being involved now. 

This whole saga has had more twists and turns than an episode of Breaking Bad. 

But is it over? Maybe for now. But if thee SGL really had 20 players signed up, and we'll take it that DJ, BDC, and Phil were 3 of them, what about the other 17 guys? Are they just going to quietly forget about it all and hope that everyone else does too?


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## Crazyface (Feb 24, 2022)

Hi, what's going on? Have I missed something? Can some pop a link up so save me an hours trawling the net please.


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## MarkT (Feb 24, 2022)

Personally I’ve written Mickelson off a handful of times eg crappy comments to Phil Price (before losing!), Shinnecock, The Match was horrific etc etc but keep coming back to quite liking him. He’s one of those mates you don’t really want to be mates with but wouldn’t mind a pint once in a blue moon. You wonder how many people have truly followed all this and that the more general public will lap him up again (if he gets to play Augusta/defend his PGA crown..)
His timing is horrific, you could argue his popularity has never been greater than last year with the PGA win and Tiger being out)


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## Hoganman1 (Feb 24, 2022)

I used to really like Phil, but he's gone off the rails. I was shocked that he was actually  willing to overlook all the terrible things the Saudis do to enrich himself. Then when he recieved pushback, his "apology" was an attempt to paint himself as a hero for his fellow PGA Tour members. It's  a shame that he has totally destroyed his so carefully crafted legacy.


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## howbow88 (Feb 24, 2022)

Judging by Norman's recent statement, this isn't going away. 

Perhaps someone should start an SGL thread?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Judging by Norman's recent statement, this isn't going away.

Perhaps someone should start an SGL thread?
		
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Pretty full on from the Great White Shark 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496893459172634626


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Personally I’ve written Mickelson off a handful of times eg crappy comments to Phil Price (before losing!), Shinnecock, The Match was horrific etc etc but keep coming back to quite liking him. He’s one of those mates you don’t really want to be mates with but wouldn’t mind a pint once in a blue moon. You wonder how many people have truly followed all this and that the more general public will lap him up again (if he gets to play Augusta/defend his PGA crown..)
His timing is horrific, you could argue his popularity has never been greater than last year with the PGA win and Tiger being out)
		
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I don't like him and haven't for a good while. I suspect he is someone for whom the saying 'everyone loves him, until they get to know him' applies.


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## Crow (Feb 24, 2022)

I've never been a fan, he plays some astonishing shots but his creepy cap-peak touch to acknowledge the applause really grates with me, and that's the totally illogical reason that I don't like him.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

Crow said:



			I've never been a fan, he plays some astonishing shots but his creepy cap-peak touch to acknowledge the applause really grates with me, and that's the totally illogical reason that I don't like him.
		
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I think what winds me up a little is how the US pundits on PGA Tour seem to absolutely adore him, and love to tell the whole world what a great guy he is. How he signs so many autographs. So what, I'm sure many players do. However, I'm sure they kept bringing that up, knowing Tiger probably didn't spend so much time doing autographs, so that they could manufacture a rivalry between them both.


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 24, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Selfishly, I'm quite happy with the events being 100% in America.  Means it's on TV in the evening. Golf tournaments in europe, I'm at work, and in asia I'm asleep.   If I'm not watching it, its has literally no meaning to me....
		
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Ha! This is how I feel too. The open is the major I see the least of!


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## Jimaroid (Feb 24, 2022)

Malice and stupidity are easily confused. I’m not sure what I think about Phil.

I’ve never liked him all that much but out of all the tour players I’ve ever met in the flesh he’s the only one who stopped to say thanks when we wished him a good game. Seemed like a nice guy, maybe he’s just a bit dim and he gets badly advised.


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 24, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pretty full on from the Great White Shark 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496893459172634626

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I don’t have an issue with the challenge to the PGA tour, the Saudi element is the problem. 

Norman / mickleson or whoever else might well have valid points, but I don’t listen to them because of the challenger is even more abhorrent (by an exponential multiple).


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Malice and stupidity are easily confused. I’m not sure what I think about Phil.

I’ve never liked him all that much but out of all the tour players I’ve ever met in the flesh he’s the only one who stopped to say thanks when we wished him a good game. Seemed like a nice guy, maybe he’s just a bit dim and he gets badly advised.
		
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Yes, strikes me that he’s got a valid axe to grind with the tour, but he’s getting into bed with the devil with the Saudi thing.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I don’t have an issue with the challenge to the PGA tour, the Saudi element is the problem.

Norman / mickleson or whoever else might well have valid points, but I don’t listen to them because of the challenger is even more abhorrent (by an exponential multiple).
		
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Agreed!
Norman certainly seems to have a valid point imo. Commissioner's rant seemed like classic restriction of trade admission to me. The apparent additional $100M of funding magically appearing (from an $800M reserve) seems dodgy too!
It's only the Saudi element that puts me off.
To me, even though there's a lot to dislike about the guy, Mickelson's rant was entirely justified!


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## 4LEX (Feb 25, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pretty full on from the Great White Shark 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496893459172634626

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That is utterly embarrassing and sounds like a 12 year old has written it. Far from running scared, I suspect the PGA Tour will be laughing their heads off. They've got it locked down for another decade minimum. All Norman has done is mess up their one and only chance.

I wonder whether they'll invest in the future stars and get them onboard early or stick with washed up has beens....


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2022)

Greg Norman is a big friend of Trump. There are plans to put some of these events on Trump courses. Trump has a beef with the PGA Tour since they moved an event from Doral after he said some stuff of a rather suspect nature. Trump is also friendly with some dodgy monied foreign elements. This is not a play to liberate players from the grasp of the PGA Tour. The whole thing stinks and only players whose PGA tour career is in decline will contemplate this.


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## AussieKB (Feb 25, 2022)

Norman is also friends with Clinton, so what does that prove ? I would love to see the pro's play at Doral and Cypress Point plus othergreat courses but the Woke PGA are against that, about time someone shook them up a a bit.

The Caddy's cannot wear advertising other than the pro they are working for, must wear bib provided by PGA, keep saying they are private contractors till it goes against PGA belief.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Norman is also friends with Clinton, so what does that prove ? I would love to see the pro's play at Doral and Cypress Point plus othergreat courses but the Woke PGA are against that, about time someone shook them up a a bit.

The Caddy's cannot wear advertising other than the pro they are working for, must wear bib provided by PGA, keep saying they are private contractors till it goes against PGA belief.
		
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Clinton doesn't own any golf courses nor was he rebuffed by the PGA Tour, so utterly irrelevant. 

"The Woke PGA". You must be joking.


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## AussieKB (Feb 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Clinton doesn't own any golf courses nor was he rebuffed by the PGA Tour, so utterly irrelevant.

"The Woke PGA". You must be joking.
		
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Then tell me why they stopped playing at Cypress Point ?


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			...
The Caddy's _cannot_ wear advertising other than the pro they are working for...
		
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Demonstrably wrong! Steve Williams wore his sponsor's logo (Valvoline) many times while caddying for both Woods and Adam Scott
Cypress Point was dropped from PGA Tour because its membership clashed with PGA Tour's anti-discrimination policy.


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2022)

not even Thursday night men's league is safe


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## AussieKB (Feb 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Demonstrably wrong! Steve Williams wore his sponsor's logo (Valvoline) many times while caddying for both Woods and Adam Scott
Cypress Point was dropped from PGA Tour because its membership clashed with PGA Tour's anti-discrimination policy.
		
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They dropped Cypress Point because they did not have a black member, there response was they can go on the waiting list like everyone else, 9 year wait....

Since then, they do have black members, Condy Rice for one, but they are in no hurry to host an event.
This past week at Pebble Beach a lot of the star pro's went and played Cypress Point and quite a few of the celebs are Members there, so why haven't the PGA sanctioned them ? just a WOKE organisation.

So who misses out ? the Pro's because they rate the course highly (rated No.2 in US) and general public seeing a great course.

As for Steve Williams you should remember that after Tigger holed the last putt to win another tournament he would rip the bib off on the green after replacing the flag.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			They dropped Cypress Point because they did not have a black member, there response was they can go on the waiting list like everyone else, 9 year wait....

Since then, they do have black members, Condy Rice for one, but they are in no hurry to host an event.
		
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So everyone's happy!


AussieKB said:



			...
This past week at Pebble Beach a lot of the star pro's went and played Cypress Point and quite a few of the celebs are Members there, so why haven't the PGA sanctioned them ? just a WOKE organisation.
...
		
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Because they have no control over their (independent contractor) members outside their PGA obligations. Similar applies to the celebs!
So, legal requirements aside, not an actively 'woke organisation'!


AussieKB said:



			As for Steve Williams you should remember that after Tigger holed the last putt to win another tournament he would rip the bib off on the green after replacing the flag.
		
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 Plenty of pics of him with Valvoline logo showing while wearing bib with both Tiger or Scott!


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## phillarrow (Feb 26, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			They dropped Cypress Point because they did not have a black member, there response was they can go on the waiting list like everyone else, 9 year wait....

Since then, they do have black members, Condy Rice for one, but they are in no hurry to host an event.
This past week at Pebble Beach a lot of the star pro's went and played Cypress Point and quite a few of the celebs are Members there, so why haven't the PGA sanctioned them ? just a WOKE organisation.

So who misses out ? the Pro's because they rate the course highly (rated No.2 in US) and general public seeing a great course.

As for Steve Williams you should remember that after Tigger holed the last putt to win another tournament he would rip the bib off on the green after replacing the flag.
		
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So the fact that the PGA felt it was wrong that by 1990 some of these private courses had no black members, means that the PGA is woke? Are you for real? 

As for why the PGA haven't sanctioned players for playing there, it wasn't an official event so why would they? That would be like sanctioning someone for playing in their mate's back yard! And if they had sanctioned them - wouldn't that be even more woke? Or cancel culture? Or whatever childish phrase you want to hide your prejudice behind?


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## Imurg (Feb 26, 2022)

Mickelson rapidly running out of sponsorships.....Workday and Callaway re-evaluating their relationships.....
Seems the sponsors don't like the way it's panning out....


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## AussieKB (Feb 26, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			So the fact that the PGA felt it was wrong that by 1990 some of these private courses had no black members, means that the PGA is woke? Are you for real?

As for why the PGA haven't sanctioned players for playing there, it wasn't an official event so why would they? That would be like sanctioning someone for playing in their mate's back yard! And if they had sanctioned them - wouldn't that be even more woke? Or cancel culture? Or whatever childish phrase you want to hide your prejudice behind?
		
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Where is my prejudice ? I play on a regular basis with black people, stay at their house and they come an spend weekends with me, take overseas golf holidays that I arrange. If my club has a waiting list of 9 years then why does anyone get to jump the queue on what ever colour you are ?


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## Italian outcast (Feb 26, 2022)

Dando said:



			not even Thursday night men's league is safe







Click to expand...

Classic scene setting opening statement from CPG


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## Dando (Feb 26, 2022)

Italian outcast said:



			Classic scene setting opening statement from CPG
		
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Who doesn’t like taking a dump in the ladies toilets 🤣🤣🤣


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## phillarrow (Feb 26, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Where is my prejudice ? I play on a regular basis with black people, stay at their house and they come an spend weekends with me, take overseas golf holidays that I arrange. If my club has a waiting list of 9 years then why does anyone get to jump the queue on what ever colour you are ?
		
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I can't be racist, some of my best friends are black. As hilarious as it is tragic. 

If you have to ask why an exclusively white members club, that stays exclusively white for many years after all others around it become diverse, should allow black people to  'jump the queue'  (because 1990 would represent a rapid rise for black people wouldn't it?!?!) , then you're not worth the time it would take to discuss this issue with. 👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Mickelson rapidly running out of sponsorships.....Workday and Callaway re-evaluating their relationships.....
Seems the sponsors don't like the way it's panning out....
		
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I think most if not all will distance themselves from Mickleson sooner rather than later. He is going to find himself very alone wherever he plays his golf


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## AussieKB (Feb 26, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I can't be racist, some of my best friends are black. As hilarious as it is tragic.

If you have to ask why an exclusively white members club, that stays exclusively white for many years after all others around it become diverse, should allow black people to  'jump the queue'  (because 1990 would represent a rapid rise for black people wouldn't it?!?!) , then you're not worth the time it would take to discuss this issue with. 👍
		
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Is that like an Only Men's Golf Club now allowing Women to join is OK ?
Anyway we are off topic, bye and good golfing.


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## Dando (Feb 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think most if not all will distance themselves from Mickleson sooner rather than later. He is going to find himself very alone wherever he plays his golf
		
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He’s on the reserve list for H4H


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## Tashyboy (Feb 27, 2022)

Dando said:



			He’s on the reserve list for H4H
		
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I hope he is with the whippersnappers then 😳😁


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 27, 2022)

Dando said:



			He’s on the reserve list for H4H
		
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Not sure he'd understand the banter but as long he bid for the auction items and got a beer in


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## Backsticks (Mar 3, 2022)

jamiebellingham said:



			Anyone else seeing how the pros are hitting bombs with the Taylor Made Stealth Driver?
		
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Yes, I see that. It seems to suffer little if any distance penalty compared to titanium drivers.


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## Hoganman1 (Mar 10, 2022)

Just to clarify for everyone: the PGA and the PGA Tour are two separate organizations. The PGA Tour controls the Players, The FedEx Cup and all the regulat Tour events. The PGA controls the PGA Championship, The Ryder Cup and The President's Cup. Augusta National controls The Masters, The Royal and Ancient controls The Open Championship and the USGA controls The US Open.


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## IainP (Mar 16, 2022)

May be some merit in @MarkT renaming this thread (Super League or whatever).
GM fbook has put out a number of posts today.

London in June apparently...


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## Imurg (Mar 16, 2022)

It'll be interesting to see who they get.......
Might go along to watch and put my clubs in the car just in case...


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## MarkT (Mar 16, 2022)

Just been thinking would I be tempted to go and watch? Think I would just out of curiosity more than anything


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Just been thinking would I be tempted to go and watch? Think I would just out of curiosity more than anything
		
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If it's a tournament with top pro's playing in it then why not? Does it matter to Joe Punter who the 'tour' running it is? It might matter to the US tour as they have the most to lose but to the average golf viewer it doesn't matter.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it's a tournament with top pro's playing in it then why not? Does it matter to Joe Punter who the 'tour' running it is? It might matter to the US tour as they have the most to lose but to the average golf viewer it doesn't matter.
		
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Especially if it's at courses not normally used by the pro's and thus easier to get to for the public.


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## Barking_Mad (Mar 16, 2022)

Depends on your views of Saudi Arabia I suppose.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2022)

I think this is going to be a flop, with mediocre players at mediocre courses. Presumably they have a TV deal signed, haven't seen who will be carrying it.


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## Dando (Mar 16, 2022)

First knock is at centurion so might try and pop along for it


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

I see that they are only 3 day events.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

Have they said who is actually playing in any of the events. What PGA/ET event do they clash with


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have they said who is actually playing in any of the events. What PGA/ET event do they clash with
		
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TBH, does that really matter if the cost of entry for the public is reasonable? Many go watch the good amateurs, so why not lower level pro's playing for some serious money?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			TBH, does that really matter if the cost of entry for the public is reasonable? Many go watch the good amateurs, so why not lower level pro's playing for some serious money?
		
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Sorry I was just asking if they have announced what players are actually playing at the events 🤷‍♂️ Not sure the relevance of your reply to what I asked ?


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I was just asking if they have announced what players are actually playing at the events 🤷‍♂️ Not sure the relevance of your reply to what I asked ?
		
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My point was, would it matter who the players were to the paying/watching public?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My point was, would it matter who the players were to the paying/watching public?
		
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Ok - but I was wanting to know if any players had been announced that were playing , nothing to do with paying public 🤷‍♂️


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 16, 2022)

Norman sent out another email to players saying "we're a start up company" but you'll soon be wanting to join. Very bullish message

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/gr...tm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow


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## badgergm (Mar 16, 2022)

$25M purse, $5M more than the Players. Staggering. Who’s going to Play?


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2022)

If they can get it through the first 2 years, they'll  have something to really challenge the PGA Tour. And the reaction from that body suggests that it's about time!


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## Jason.H (Mar 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I was just asking if they have announced what players are actually playing at the events 🤷‍♂️ Not sure the relevance of your reply to what I asked ?
		
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PGA players won’t want to put their names out there just yet look what happened a while back. I think players will be queuing up for it if the money is there and well payed even when missing the cut ect.


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## Junior (Mar 17, 2022)

NLU said that they were playing for 70% of the yearly PGA purse across 8 events.  Interesting to see who chases the Saudi money whist the best players have turned their backs.  One of the events is at a Trump course too.  Saudi's + Trump, quite the misogynistic duo.


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## evemccc (Mar 17, 2022)

Aside from anything else, NLU have a vested interest in the continuation of the predominance of the PGA Tour as it is - in terms of their access, content etc


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 17, 2022)

I wouldn't say the take up has been slow but you can enter on Golf Empire ....


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## Mel Smooth (Mar 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I see that they are only 3 day events.
		
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This is the connection between Performance 54 - they are 54 hole events, and the name of the series LIV - 54 in Roman numerals.

You've probably all seen that Rick Shiels company is part owned by performance 54, plus a few other influencers.


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## Mel Smooth (Mar 17, 2022)

By the way, I like the concept, and I like that the PGA tour is being challenged - although I'm dissapointed that they've staged so many events in the USA.

I don't like the fact that the money is coming from Saudi, but then, as we are now seeing with the Oligarchs in Russia, the wealthiest people on the planet have their fingers in many western pies, and there's a very good chance that a lot of prize money on the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour etc, come from pretty dirty origins.


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## DaveR (Mar 17, 2022)

badgergm said:



			$25M purse, $5M more than the Players. Staggering. Who’s going to Play?
		
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✋️


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			By the way, I like the concept, and I like that the PGA tour is being challenged - although I'm dissapointed that they've staged so many events in the USA.

I don't like the fact that the money is coming from Saudi, but then, as we are now seeing with the Oligarchs in Russia, the wealthiest people on the planet have their fingers in many western pies, and there's a very good chance that a lot of prize money on the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour etc, come from pretty dirty origins.
		
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The Saudis have a initiative called Vision 2030 whereby they want to diversify their economy and essentially reduce their reliance on oil money.

To do this they are using public/state money such as the PIF to invest in or start up companies overseas to give themselves a presence and foothold in international markets. The investment in Newcastle, LIV golf and other investments in/ start up companies are all examples of this.


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			By the way, I like the concept, and I like that the PGA tour is being challenged - although I'm dissapointed that they've staged so many events in the USA.

I don't like the fact that the money is coming from Saudi, but then, as we are now seeing with the Oligarchs in Russia, the wealthiest people on the planet have their fingers in many western pies, and there's a very good chance that a lot of prize money on the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour etc, come from pretty dirty origins.
		
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I agree with the sentiments of the first paragraph and your point about Saudi. But sponsorship of Golf (or Tennis etc) tournaments by companies is far more visible than the sort of dodgy dealing that I believe is/has been involved with Russian corporate manouvering. Public companies, at least in UK, US and other Western countries have far too much to lose by being associated with companies controlled by oligarchs imo. That's not to say that there won't be investment by 'bad' folk/oganisations in those, supposedly clean, companies, just not in order to control/get control of them.


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## rksquire (Mar 17, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think this is going to be a flop, with mediocre players at mediocre courses. Presumably they have a TV deal signed, haven't seen who will be carrying it.
		
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badgergm said:



			$25M purse, $5M more than the Players. Staggering. Who’s going to Play?
		
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This is the test for sure - mediocre players at mediocre courses earning in excess of the best players at the best courses on a tougher schedule..... I can easily see a situation where a number of heads get turned, if not at the start, certainly after a few tournaments.  If I'm, for example, Andy Sullivan, Matt Wallace, Jamie Donaldson, Brendt Snedeker, Victor Dubuisson etc. I'm definitely thinking I'd have a great chance at winning millions and not having to beat the best to do it.  However, if I'm Lee Westwood or Sergio Garcia seeing these guys win guaranteed prize money, much in excess of my own, even if I make the Cut, then I am going to be thinking "that's not fair".  Of course you'd have to park all your moral values and outrage at the funding source & human rights issues, but I suspect many will find a suitable narrative especially as they can see they are guaranteed money at every event both as an individual and as a team.

After the initial eight events, if heads haven't been turned, I'll be quite (pleasantly) surprised.


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2022)

If they still haven't announced who's in it, I think it's safe to assume that nobody we've heard of is going to be in it.


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## IanM (Mar 17, 2022)

Let's not go the way of boxing and darts.

I say this as the World Champion of the IanM Golf World Tour!


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2022)

rksquire said:



			This is the test for sure - mediocre players at mediocre courses earning in excess of the best players at the best courses on a tougher schedule..... I can easily see a situation where a number of heads get turned, if not at the start, certainly after a few tournaments.  If I'm, for example, Andy Sullivan, Matt Wallace, Jamie Donaldson, Brendt Snedeker, Victor Dubuisson etc. I'm definitely thinking I'd have a great chance at winning millions and not having to beat the best to do it.  However, if I'm Lee Westwood or Sergio Garcia seeing these guys win guaranteed prize money, much in excess of my own, even if I make the Cut, then I am going to be thinking "that's not fair".  Of course you'd have to park all your moral values and outrage at the funding source & human rights issues, but I suspect many will find a suitable narrative especially as they can see they are guaranteed money at every event both as an individual and as a team.

After the initial eight events, if heads haven't been turned, I'll be quite (pleasantly) surprised.
		
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It looks suited to the early 40s player whose game is fading a bit and who may not want to play the Champions Tour (assuming the PGA Tour ban covers that) but wants to retire into after-dinner, business or course design with a soft landing.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 17, 2022)

Centurion not far away from me. Will I go watch it? Nope. Unfortunately I think @rksquire has hit the nail on the head of how it will play out. Lesser known/ranked players starting it off, and the big boys working together with their PR people on how to spin the narrative so they can jump on it as they don't want to miss out on the money.

Like Shane Lowry probably will put it: He's got to provide for his family...


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## evemccc (Mar 17, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It looks suited to the early 40s player whose game is fading a bit and who may not want to play the Champions Tour (assuming the PGA Tour ban covers that) but wants to retire into after-dinner, business or course design with a soft landing.
		
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Sounds perfect for me, I want that soft landing 😁😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2022)

Is it being televised? Have they announced a TV deal?


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## timd77 (Mar 19, 2022)

Interesting podcast with Greg Norman here. 3 things that I picked up on.

1, they still don’t have players. 
2, low ranked players are likely to be the winners in this.
C, he’s burying his head regarding the murderous Saudi regime.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunkered-golf-podcast/id1525619563


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## Mel Smooth (Mar 19, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Interesting podcast with Greg Norman here. 3 things that I picked up on.

1, they still don’t have players.
2, low ranked players are likely to be the winners in this.
*C, he’s burying his head regarding the murderous Saudi regime.*

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunkered-golf-podcast/id1525619563

Click to expand...

Why shouldn't he, there's a World Cup in Qatar this year that everybody seems Ok with. If the world of football can turn a blind eye to medieval religous governemnt practices, then there's no reason for Mr Norman to take a political viewpoint over the same.


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## timd77 (Mar 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn't he, there's a World Cup in Qatar this year that everybody seems Ok with. If the world of football can turn a blind eye to medieval religous governemnt practices, then there's no reason for Mr Norman to take a political viewpoint over the same.
		
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And we all know how Qatar won that bid. And I think everybody’s far from being ok with it unless you’re on the receiving end of a few quid.


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## Golfnut1957 (Mar 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn't he, there's a World Cup in Qatar this year that everybody seems Ok with. If the world of football can turn a blind eye to medieval religous governemnt practices, then there's no reason for Mr Norman to take a political viewpoint over the same.
		
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For a bit of context. The BBC published a league table of executions by nations earlier this week. Saudi Arabia were 4th, the United States were 5th.

This week a 2008 report from the Central Intelligence Agency's own inspector general was declassified. It describes how one post-9/11 detainee, Ammar al-Baluchi, was used as a "living prop" in a CIA black site to train torturers how to bounce detainees off walls. It happened with such vigour and regularity that al-Baluchi developed significant brain damage . After two decades in Guantanamo Bay he is still awaiting trial.

All hail the PGA Tour.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn't he, there's a World Cup in Qatar this year that everybody seems Ok with. If the world of football can turn a blind eye to medieval religous governemnt practices, then there's no reason for Mr Norman to take a political viewpoint over the same.
		
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Actually, I think there are plenty of people not happy with a World Cup in Qatar, for numerous reasons. However, the comparison is not quite the same, as the World Cup is just a one off each time, rotated from country to country. The Saudi Golf is about pulling players away from an already successful tour, thus damaging that tour. 

A better comparison might be comparing the Premier League and the proposed European Super League, and we know what the reaction to that was.


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## timd77 (Mar 19, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			For a bit of context. The BBC published a league table of executions by nations earlier this week. Saudi Arabia were 4th, the United States were 5th.

This week a 2008 report from the Central Intelligence Agency's own inspector general was declassified. It describes how one post-9/11 detainee, Ammar al-Baluchi, was used as a "living prop" in a CIA black site to train torturers how to bounce detainees off walls. It happened with such vigour and regularity that al-Baluchi developed significant brain damage . After two decades in Guantanamo Bay he is still awaiting trial.

All hail the PGA Tour.
		
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You’ve lost me. What’s that got to do with the pga tour? And am I wrong in thinking that the Saudi tour will be backed by the state?


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## Golfnut1957 (Mar 19, 2022)

timd77 said:



			You’ve lost me. What’s that got to do with the pga tour? And am I wrong in thinking that the Saudi tour will be backed by the state?
		
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Don't worry about it.


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## sunshine (Mar 20, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			For a bit of context. The BBC published a league table of executions by nations earlier this week. Saudi Arabia were 4th, the United States were 5th.

This week a 2008 report from the Central Intelligence Agency's own inspector general was declassified. It describes how one post-9/11 detainee, Ammar al-Baluchi, was used as a "living prop" in a CIA black site to train torturers how to bounce detainees off walls. It happened with such vigour and regularity that al-Baluchi developed significant brain damage . After two decades in Guantanamo Bay he is still awaiting trial.

All hail the PGA Tour.
		
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Is the PGA Tour owned and funded by the CIA?


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## Mel Smooth (Mar 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Is the PGA Tour owned and funded by the CIA?
		
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I think the point is that the USA also execute people for committing crimes, and have some questionable practices as stated in the case above, but no quetions are ever raised over it when we are discussing sporting integrity in the country, unlike Saudi and the other Arab nations.

The PGA Tour is fundamentally a US based and funded tour.


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## sunshine (Mar 20, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it's a tournament with top pro's playing in it then why not? Does it matter to Joe Punter who the 'tour' running it is? It might matter to the US tour as they have the most to lose but to the average golf viewer it doesn't matter.
		
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What if the Centurion tournament was name the Osama bin Laden Memorial tournament, would that change your view?
What if Vladimir Putin was funding it?

The way Newcastle fans have celebrated the arrival of Saudi money shows that a lot of people just don’t care. $$$ before morals.


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## sunshine (Mar 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think the point is that the USA also execute people for committing crimes, and have some questionable practices as stated in the case above, but no quetions are ever raised over it when we are discussing sporting integrity in the country, unlike Saudi and the other Arab nations.

The PGA Tour is fundamentally a US based and funded tour.
		
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Yes. But you can’t tar the whole USA, based on the actions of the CIA. Similarly you can’t blame ordinary Saudi citizens for the actions of the murderous state, but you can look at state backed organisations as an extension of the state.


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## sunshine (Mar 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn't he, there's a World Cup in Qatar this year that everybody seems Ok with. If the world of football can turn a blind eye to medieval religous governemnt practices, then there's no reason for Mr Norman to take a political viewpoint over the same.
		
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I guess everyone needs to make their own decisions. 

Just because FIFA have no morals it doesn’t provide an excuse for everyone else. 

I once saw someone steal a pair of trainers from a sports shop and get away with it. I didn’t decide to join them and also steal some shoes just because I could.


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## Mel Smooth (Mar 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Yes. But you can’t tar the whole USA, based on the actions of the CIA. Similarly you can’t blame ordinary Saudi citizens for the actions of the murderous state, but you can look at state backed organisations as an extension of the state.
		
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Ok, were going down a political dead end here, but as you've mentioned not tarring the whole of the USA, the homicide rate there is 5 per 100,000. In Saudi, it's 0.9 per 100,000.

So in terms of  murders, the Americans have some catching up to do on the Saudis.

I'm not trying to defend the Saudis here - I agree it's a very relevant factor in the proposed LIV tour, and whether it will succeed, I'm just trying to highlight that we all seem to be ambivelant to all the issues in other countries that host golf tournaments, when perhaps we shouldn't be.


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## sunshine (Mar 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, were going down a political dead end here, but as you've mentioned not tarring the whole of the USA, the homicide rate there is 5 per 100,000. In Saudi, it's 0.9 per 100,000.

So in terms of  murders, the Americans have some catching up to do on the Saudis.

I'm not trying to defend the Saudis here - I agree it's a very relevant factor in the proposed LIV tour, and whether it will succeed, I'm just trying to highlight that we all seem to be ambivelant to all the issues in other countries that host golf tournaments, when perhaps we shouldn't be.
		
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You’re right. Every country has skeletons in the closet. 

I guess my point is that the PGA Tour itself doesn’t torture people (apart from Brandel Chamblee’s commentary) and is not funded by organisations which do either.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 1, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509854154709258246
They are not exactly going to the stunning courses


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## Imurg (Apr 1, 2022)

Have they announced any players yet?


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## JamesR (Apr 1, 2022)

Might be worth booking tee times for when the events are supposed to be taking place.
Once the cancellations take place they may offer reduced rates, just to get people on the courses.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2022)

sunshine said:



			You’re right. Every country has skeletons in the closet.

I guess my point is that *the PGA Tour itself doesn’t torture people (apart from Brandel Chamblee’s commentary)* and is not funded by organisations which do either.
		
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That will have me grinning for the rest of the day, thank you.


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## Beezerk (Apr 1, 2022)

Bugger, it’s only 30 minutes from my house but I’m away in the lakes that weekend 🙈


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## Jason.H (Apr 1, 2022)

I don’t think they will be short of players. I think announcements will come closer to the 1st event  8 LIV events with a 25 million dollar purse at each one. If the big names turn it down good luck to the others that get in. Hoping to go to the Centurion it’s a short walk for me.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2022)

I wonder who they'll get to play. Slaley is a decent enough course


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## IainP (Apr 12, 2022)

This quote is doing the rounds -
" *two former World No.1 golfers and Ryder Cup stars "*

Westwood & Donald ?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 12, 2022)

IainP said:



			This quote is doing the rounds -
" *two former World No.1 golfers and Ryder Cup stars "*

Westwood & Donald ?

Click to expand...

Langer and Woosnam


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## IainP (Apr 12, 2022)

Rose & Kaymer


Duval 😁


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## Bazzatron (Apr 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Langer and Woosnam
		
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Rather watch them two than Westwood.


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2022)

Bubba Watson, Poulter, Westwood and Kevin Na mentioned in reasonably plausible rumours so far.


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## Backsticks (Apr 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Bubba Watson, Poulter, Westwood and Kevin Na mentioned in reasonably plausible rumours so far.
		
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So more of a contender to the Seniors tour really.


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## evemccc (Apr 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So more of a contender to the Seniors tour really.
		
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With Langer, Olazabel, Lyle and Couples and usually Phil, it’s no more so than the US Masters 😜


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So more of a contender to the Seniors tour really.
		
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A lot of players seem to go into the doldrums in their later 40s waiting for the Champions Tour. This might be a way of supplementing their pensions, but I wonder if "an understanding" has been reached with the Champions Tour. Westwood and Poulter would want to play in the Senior majors, at least. The Senior (British) Open is still available to them, but some of the others might not if they are banned by the PGA Tour.


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## phillarrow (Apr 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Bubba Watson, Poulter, Westwood and Kevin Na mentioned in reasonably plausible rumours so far.
		
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Surely Poulter - and maybe Westwood too - wouldn't take the chance in being banned from ever being Ryder Cup captain?


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Surely Poulter - and maybe Westwood too - wouldn't take the chance in being banned from ever being Ryder Cup captain?
		
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You would think, but making a load of easy money may be turning their heads. They might also think that it will all calm down in a couple of years and the bans will be revoked.

Luke Donald is an interesting case too. I think he has missed out on RC Captain (although could be back if Westwood and Poulter are out of the picture), he isn't really competitive on the PGA Tour now, so what does he do?


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## evemccc (Apr 13, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Surely Poulter - and maybe Westwood too - wouldn't take the chance in being banned from ever being Ryder Cup captain?
		
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression Poulter gives is of the original Flash Boy.…pretty sure some Middle Eastern sunshine and a few millions to buy a gold Lamborghini and some jazzy trousers would be welcomed


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression Poulter gives is of the original Flash Boy.…pretty sure some Middle Eastern sunshine and a few millions to buy a gold Lamborghini and some jazzy trousers would be welcomed
		
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He does come across like that but the Ryder Cup oozes from every pore of Poulter...I'd be amazed if he'd risk not getting the Captaincy


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## phillarrow (Apr 13, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression Poulter gives is of the original Flash Boy.…pretty sure some Middle Eastern sunshine and a few millions to buy a gold Lamborghini and some jazzy trousers would be welcomed
		
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Imurg said:



			He does come across like that but the Ryder Cup oozes from every pore of Poulter...I'd be amazed if he'd risk not getting the Captaincy
		
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What he said! 👍

I just think the Ryder Cup means more to Poulter than literally anything else in golf, including money. 

I hope I'm right by the way because I'd love to see him win it as a captain... although the strength of American golf right now makes it a tougher task than it's been for many years and I wouldn't be surprised if we have a very lean spell over the next 10 - 20 years. 😬


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## woofers (Apr 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You would think, but making a load of easy money may be turning their heads. They might also think that it will all calm down in a couple of years and the bans will be revoked.

Luke Donald is an interesting case too. I think he has missed out on RC Captain (although could be back if Westwood and Poulter are out of the picture), he isn't really competitive on the PGA Tour now, *so what does he do*?
		
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Well he, (and Poulter and Westwood), could do whatever was available before the Saudi dollars became available. One of the Seniors Tours perhaps, or ‘put something back into the game’ that has rewarded them so well. Let’s face it, none of them need the money to ‘put food on the table’, I suspect they are all wealthy enough not to worry about paying bills for the rest of their lives, a position 99.9% of the worlds population would relish. The terms ‘comfortable’ and ‘content’ appear not to be in the vocabulary of the rich.
Of course, if they get very bored, may I suggest they get their bank to bring their wealth round in one dollar bills, or pound coins, and they can spend a few days counting out just how rich they already are….


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## Trojan615 (Apr 13, 2022)

I think kaymer and Donald…. Although was Westwood world number 1? If so he lives near Staley so a good shout….


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## Patrick Reeds rules book. (Apr 13, 2022)

I think more Europeans would be up for it than yanks….. I wonder if some might see it as a ster up from the European tour… Simon dyson / Robert rock?


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2022)

Patrick Reeds rules book. said:



			I think more Europeans would be up for it than yanks….. I wonder if some might see it as a ster up from the European tour… Simon dyson / Robert rock?
		
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Dyson would love the chance, i'm sure... but he retired three years ago (I get your point though)


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## fundy (Apr 13, 2022)

Slab said:



			Dyson would love the chance, i'm sure... but he retired three years ago (I get your point though)
		
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Made a winning appearance on one of the junior tours the other day


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2022)

fundy said:



			Made a winning appearance on one of the junior tours the other day
		
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Did not know that. Retirement must've disagreed with him (& his wrist must've improved)


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## Imurg (Apr 19, 2022)

It appears that the well known, multi-tournament winner( well, 1) and regular atop leaderboards....or not.....Robert Garrigus is the first PGA player to apply for permission to play the first of these events...
This is the quality of player they want..?
Good luck to them.


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## IainP (Apr 19, 2022)

I thought the rhetoric had moved on - not who they want, but who they start with..

“Quite honestly, it doesn't matter who plays, we're going to put the event on,” Norman told the Telegraph.

“There's a $4 million first prize. I hope a kid who’s 350th in the world wins. It’ll change his life, his family’s life."

"And then a few of our events will go by and the top players will see someone winning $6 million, $8 million, and say, ‘Enough is enough, I know I can beat these guys week in, week out with my hands tied behind my back.’”


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2022)

IainP said:



			I thought the rhetoric had moved on - not who they want, but who they start with..

“Quite honestly, it doesn't matter who plays, we're going to put the event on,” Norman told the Telegraph.

“There's a $4 million first prize. I hope a kid who’s 350th in the world wins. It’ll change his life, his family’s life."

"And then a few of our events will go by and the top players will see someone winning $6 million, $8 million, and say, ‘Enough is enough, I know I can beat these guys week in, week out with my hands tied behind my back.’”
		
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I agree with Norman's comments. Though I think the PGA Tour will hold out in general. Some of the players on the cusp of retiring may be tempt for a last hurrah, or (other) ones no longer competitive - perhaps even like Mickelson - might go for it.
It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. I don't think PGA Tour's monopolistic attitude to 'competition' is a good one though.


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## Ethan (Apr 19, 2022)

Imurg said:



			It appears that the well known, multi-tournament winner( well, 1) and regular atop leaderboards....or not.....Robert Garrigus is the first PGA player to apply for permission to play the first of these events...
This is the quality of player they want..?
Good luck to them.
		
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I have played golf with Robert, just around the time he got his PGA Tour card. Lovely guy and can hit a long ball.

He is one of those players, of whom there are quite a few, who could have stepped up to another level and been a leaderboard regular, but it didn't quite happen for him, and he lost his card, got it back and so on. I am not surprised that he sees his career outside that ping-pong. Maybe a few years playing Saudi golf, rake in some dough and then retire to a club pro position somewhere nice? Can't blame the fella. He is in his early 40s, and chances of making a PGA Tour breakthrough now receding, not going to get any easy access to Champions Tour either. 

And he is clearly not the quality of player they want, but as Norman says, when middle ranking PGA Tour players see some Korn Ferry Tour players pulling in some serious cash, may turn their heads too. I am no fan of the Saudi Tour, but it could work.


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## howbow88 (Apr 19, 2022)

The real concern is that in normal business, if you have a competitor paying miles above market value for assets, then you hold out and be patient. Eventually the competitor will end up overspending, making losses, and then they'll probably run out of money and you'll win in the long run. 

But here, the competitor is a government that is not engaging in this business to make money from the golf, but purely to try and make foreigners think less badly of their dreadful country. And it is a government with a huge amount of cash, that can outspend the PGA Tour for a very long time.

This is a real long game for Saudi Arabia. They know that in 40 years time (probably sooner), they will not be making money from oil and so they have to make changes. They've seen what has happened with UAE and tourism, and they want a piece of that pie. The golf league is just a small part of a long term plan - Newcastle, F1, ownership of other things like Twitter - Saudi Arabia trying to show the world that they're not a barbaric, backwards nation.


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## MarkT (Apr 20, 2022)

The Telegraph says that 'a handful' of European players and a minimum of one American have submitted release applications – claims that up to six DP World Tour players have contacted Wentworth HQ seeking permission to sign up for the series.

Maybe they'll wheel Gary Player out to play in the first few!


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## AussieKB (Apr 20, 2022)

Gary Player would still be playing The Masters if they let him.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Gary Player would still be playing The Masters if they let him.
		
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They do let him!


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## Ethan (Apr 20, 2022)

MarkT said:



			The Telegraph says that 'a handful' of European players and a minimum of one American have submitted release applications – claims that up to six DP World Tour players have contacted Wentworth HQ seeking permission to sign up for the series.

Maybe they'll wheel Gary Player out to play in the first few!
		
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Any inside info on who the Euro players are? It might suit players in their 40s who have some profile but whose Euro Tour career is probably on the slide, Jamie Donaldson, for example.


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## MarkT (Apr 20, 2022)

Only what I've read so no. Poulter is the one that I can't get my head around but, then again, he's top to tail in advertising so probably wouldn't be that big a shock.


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## AussieKB (Apr 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			They do let him!
		
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Just the tee off, not playing in the competition like a few old guys who should also miss out and their spot given to someone who could win.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 20, 2022)

Pretty sure they just want anyone at the moment, I think their strategy is for someone like Robert Garrigus to walk away after 5 events $10M richer, and the Spieths and Thomas's of the world to figure out just how much they would like that sort of money for beating up on euro tour has beens....


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Pretty sure they just want anyone at the moment, I think their strategy is for someone like Robert Garrigus to walk away after 5 events $10M richer, and the Spieths and Thomas's of the world to figure out just how much they would like that sort of money for beating up on euro tour has beens....
		
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Pretty much the approach so it seems:

_Norman hopes top players will see lesser lights cashing in and will then be swayed to give his project a go. "A few of our events will go by," he told the Telegraph._

_"And the top players will see someone winning $6m, $8m and say 'enough is enough, I know I can beat these guys week in week out with my hands tied behind my back'."_

It will definintely appeal to many towards the end of their career, those not really at the sharp end each week. Over time, others will follow. How many is to be seen but if it is effectively free money to better players then many will jump.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Just the tee off, not playing in the competition like a few old guys who should also miss out and their spot given to someone who could win.
		
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Past champions get a lifetime exemption to the tournament. If Gary Player decided he was desperate to play in the main event, I'm not sure who is going to stop him. If there were people trying to stop them, at what point will they tell Olazabal, Lyle, Singh, Mize, Couples and Langer (all who played this years event) to stop playing?


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Just the tee off, not playing in the competition like a few old guys who should also miss out and their spot given to someone who could win.
		
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He's entitled to play, just like any other past champion.
You are looking at the tournament the wrong way imo.
It's an invitation event, with very strict criteria for the invite. There's plenty of space for elderly past champions, who only play 2 rounds anyway. There'd be plenty of space for 'loosening' the criteria for the invite while still allowing past champs to play. But part of the reason it's 'a major' is the exclusivity of selection criteria for possible winners.

Anyway....Back to the Saudi Super League!


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## Ethan (Apr 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Past champions get a lifetime exemption to the tournament. If Gary Player decided he was desperate to play in the main event, I'm not sure who is going to stop him. If there were people trying to stop them, at what point will they tell Olazabal, Lyle, Singh, Mize, Couples and Langer (all who played this years event) to stop playing?
		
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They have lifetime playing rights, but following a couple of 90+ scores by Doug Ford in the early noughts, the Committee started to write to certain players to ask them not to play once they became truly uncompetitive.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			They have lifetime playing rights, but following a couple of 90+ scores by Doug Ford in the early noughts, the Committee started to write to certain players to ask them not to play once they became truly uncompetitive.
		
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I wish the Committee of the Premier League wrote a similar letter to Man United


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## Bazzatron (Apr 20, 2022)

Got no issue with some of the poorer players going and making a living, it's when the top players start going on about feeding their families after they've earned 20m+ already I find annoying.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Got no issue with some of the poorer players going and making a living, it's when the top players start going on about feeding their families after they've earned 20m+ already I find annoying.
		
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There will come a point where a career high earner not necessarily a large number of tournament wins to their name decides to join. Are they trying to get more wins or are they simply on a gravy train for even more money. Do they really need any more? I get about providing for your family but some of these guys could put the whole neighbourhood through college and university


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## Bazzatron (Apr 20, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			There will come a point where a career high earner not necessarily a large number of tournament wins to their name decides to join. Are they trying to get more wins or are they simply on a gravy train for even more money. Do they really need any more? I get about providing for your family but some of these guys could put the whole neighbourhood through college and university
		
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I don't care what they do, but don't insult my intelligence when people are struggling to feed their kids that you're making a decision for your kids future, like they'll ever have to struggle anyway. Just say you want to be even more rich than you are now and go.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			I don't care what they do, but don't insult my intelligence when people are struggling to feed their kids that you're making a decision for your kids future, like they'll ever have to struggle anyway. Just say you want to be even more rich than you are now and go.
		
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I agree but hard to put that into a good PR spin.


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## Barking_Mad (Apr 21, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well he, (and Poulter and Westwood), could do whatever was available before the Saudi dollars became available. One of the Seniors Tours perhaps, or ‘put something back into the game’ that has rewarded them so well. Let’s face it, none of them need the money to ‘put food on the table’, I suspect they are all wealthy enough not to worry about paying bills for the rest of their lives, a position 99.9% of the worlds population would relish. The terms ‘comfortable’ and ‘content’ appear not to be in the vocabulary of the rich.
Of course, if they get very bored, may I suggest they get their bank to bring their wealth round in one dollar bills, or pound coins, and they can spend a few days counting out just how rich they already are….
		
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Indeed, poor old Robert Garrigus only has career earnings of $15m. 

Let's hope a win can help him cover his electric bill increase. 

#KeepTheLightsOn


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## sunshine (Apr 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Indeed, poor old Robert Garrigus only has career earnings of $15m.

Let's hope a win can help him cover his electric bill increase.

#KeepTheLightsOn
		
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$15m over, what, 25 years? So $600k per year. But he has to pay caddy, agent, coaches etc out of that, so more like $400k. Then travel expenses will be very high, these guys need to pay for flights and hotels every week, and for their caddy too. Easily another $100k without private jets or luxury houses. Probably more, because flying economy would be a false economy (!) if you want to turn up fresh and ready to win. Then tournament entry fees, PGA Tour subscriptions etc, and his earnings before tax might “only” be $250k on average.

 I’m just guessing, it would be really interesting to get some proper insight into how much it costs to play on tour (golf monthly editors, there’s an idea for a feature!). 

A missed cut must hit the pocket hard for the journeyman pro. I guess this is why sponsorships are so important to these guys.


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## IainP (Apr 21, 2022)

Not exactly as asked but...
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/i-...y-pocket-than-when-i-started-tour-pro-reveals


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## Swango1980 (Apr 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Indeed, poor old Robert Garrigus only has career earnings of $15m. 

Let's hope a win can help him cover his electric bill increase. 

#KeepTheLightsOn
		
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Isn't this just life? I'm sure many of us are lucky enough to live comfortable enough lives, not worrying too much about the electric bill. However, we may fight for a promotion or pay rise at work, or change jobs that give us a bit more money. Do the poorest in society criticise us, or is there a specific wage limit at which we should no longer look for a pay rise?

We all learn to live by our means, and I'm sure many of us who live comfortably would be unhappy to get paid less, especially if we struggle to pay for the lifestyle / house we've come accustomed to.

Pro golfers at the top of the game can earn a lot. The very best golfers can probably be fairly confident their future is going to be fairly stable, so long as they stay fit. No idea what Garrigus is up to these days, but probably one of those guys who cannot guarantee keeping (or getting back) his PGA Tour card. So, the chance to get millions in Saudi Arabia is surely very appealing.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if many of us would buy a ticket to Saudi Arabia to earn millions for a game of golf, especially if we felt our own careers were uncertain. Sadly, none of us will get that chance (although would be funny if this Saudi League had no interest in professional golf, and ended up being amateur golfers with handicaps up to 24.0)


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## Cherry13 (Apr 21, 2022)

Not sure if this should go here or in the footie thread, but Majed Al Souror was at the Newcastle game again last night.  He is the CEO of Saudi golf and was pictured with DJ, Jared Kushner and Yasir Al Rumayyan (NUFC Chairman) at the recent Saudi event.  Continued rumours that one of the proposed future sponsors for NUFC will be Saudi Golf.  Not necessarily LIV/Saudi Golf League, but the links are pretty obvious.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2022)

Cherry13 said:



			Not sure if this should go here or in the footie thread, but Majed Al Souror was at the Newcastle game again last night.  He is the CEO of Saudi golf and was pictured with DJ, Jared Kushner and Yasir Al Rumayyan (NUFC Chairman) at the recent Saudi event.  Continued rumours that one of the proposed future sponsors for NUFC will be Saudi Golf.  Not necessarily LIV/Saudi Golf League, but the links are pretty obvious.
		
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Interesting. They are having a tournament at Slaley, do you think they may pile in there and make it a base or is that purely a host course? Am I adding 2 + 2 and making 5?


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## sunshine (Apr 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sadly, none of us will get that chance (although would be funny if this Saudi League had no interest in professional golf, and ended up being amateur golfers with handicaps up to 24.0)
		
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Steady on, I think you’re getting a bit carried away here. I would set the handicap limit at 18.


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## MarkT (May 4, 2022)

See Westwood and Bland have asked for requests to play in the LIV Golf events - and here begins the Saudi golf bingo

I'll start the bidding with..... Independent contractor


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## Bazzatron (May 4, 2022)

"Doing what's right for me and my family."


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## pauljames87 (May 4, 2022)

MarkT said:



			See Westwood and Bland have asked for requests to play in the LIV Golf events - and here begins the Saudi golf bingo

I'll start the bidding with..... Independent contractor
		
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Fair play to them, 

Don't see why they should be tied to one tour 

I would love to see tiger ask to play because I doubt they would dare so no to him.

It's a different format, sounds interesting and fun to watch 

They have made them not clash with any big events 

No harm


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## rulefan (May 4, 2022)

And now they seem to be inviting amateurs to play and get $140000 for coming last


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## Liverpoolphil (May 4, 2022)

MarkT said:



			See Westwood and Bland have asked for requests to play in the LIV Golf events - and here begins the Saudi golf bingo

I'll start the bidding with..... Independent contractor
		
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Guess that’s Westwoods Ryder Cup career over


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2022)

rulefan said:



			And now they seem to be inviting amateurs to play and get $140000 for coming last 

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How do they get round the 'amateur' rules?


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess that’s Westwoods Ryder Cup career over
		
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It shouldn't be - but likely will be.


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## Imurg (May 4, 2022)

I can understand Blandy going for it.
He's been around a long time and "only" won 7.6 million euro....which sounds a lot but when you add in tax, travel, caddy fees etc etc etc it doesn't leave a huge amount. 
He's setting himself up for a happy retirement because he knows he hasn't got long left at the top table.
Westy I'm quite disappointed with...he's made his millions (approx £50 million from both Tours) he's still earning on the Tours..why does he want to risk the RC Captaincy?


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## Mel Smooth (May 4, 2022)

Good for Westwood. He's fronted up to the questions put to him. Hopefully more follow suit and it gives the PGA and The DP World Tour a shake up.

We all know the Saudis do bad things to people - and we can all get principled about the source of the funding for the LIV tour, but we don't have to look very far to start questioning lots of other moral values throughout sport.


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## BiMGuy (May 4, 2022)

Potential RC captaincy or another £20mil? Tough choice.


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I can understand Blandy going for it.
He's been around a long time and "only" won 7.6 million euro....which sounds a lot but *when you add in tax*,...
		
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Speaking of tax...
Latest WRX email has an article mentioning the tax Tiger pays....$65000.............per day!
Oh to be in such a position!


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## MarkT (May 4, 2022)

Aside from the prestige of being a RC captain what sort of figures do you think you could make in the space of say five years, before and after, a Ryder Cup captaincy? Obviously Westwood/Poulter's stock is pretty high already but what would you guess they could make for future projects eg course design, books, sponsorship, after dinners?


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## rulefan (May 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			How do they get round the 'amateur' rules? 

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They don't. The player becomes a pro and immediately earns more than he would on the Tours.


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## Foxholer (May 4, 2022)

rulefan said:



			They don't. The player becomes a pro and immediately earns more than he would on the Tours.
		
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For how long though. It'll eventually (2-3 yrs?) become mainstream and there'll be selection/qualification - so only top guys will get in.
Still, a million or so a year for a few years will set players up nicely.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2022)

Is Westwood likely to be a captain? I think his is strange as he's still competitive on the two tours, more so on the DP obviously. Will the decision impact his ability to play on the PGA seniors tour which would seem to have been the more likely gravy train. Bland has found a new lease of life and did way at the recent matchplay event so can match it with the guys from the PGA tour. I can see why he'd want a few big pay day but while you're in the form of your life would you not want to ride that out and see where it takes you and jump aboard the Saudi pay days down the line?


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## Imurg (May 4, 2022)

Westwood is/was a cast iron certainty to be RC Captain at some point in the next few years


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## Backsticks (May 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			why does he want to risk the RC Captaincy?
		
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Because it is a loss of nothing. Career wise it is worth nothing, despite the trumpeting of it at the time. The team effectively picks itself, and we could all book some celeb motivational speaker to gee them up before it, then drive around in a cart 'supporting' players and saying 'you can do it Rory. And bringing in our buddies as vice captains to make it a great weak and tee one uf them up for the job the next time. Moneywise it is , or was, something. And that has been the main interest in Ryder Cup captaincy - a sort of European Tour testimonial gig. But now they have no need for it - make multiples of that thanks to Saudi oil instead.


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## Oddsocks (May 4, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Potential RC captaincy or another £20mil? Tough choice.
		
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100%! 20mil will set up another generation of westwoods, a RC captaincy is only something that generation can brag about in the pub over a pint.

Good on westy.


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## fundy (May 4, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			100%! 20mil will set up another generation of westwoods, a RC captaincy is only something that generation can brag about in the pub over a pint.

Good on westy.
		
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how many generations of Westys need setting up?


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## Oddsocks (May 4, 2022)

fundy said:



			how many generations of Westys need setting up?
		
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In my opinion as many as he feels he can,


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## Depreston (May 4, 2022)

If they’re happy to take the bomesaw league money so be it 

I won’t be watching


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## Lilyhawk (May 4, 2022)

Trying my best not to be provoked by people putting forward the “wouldn’t you change job if you made X amount more”-argument. Lee Westwood have made 38 million € on the DP Tour and 24 million $ on the PGA Tour. Add on another, what, 20 million $ in endorsement? 

“What’s best for me”. He’s quite right. It is indeed what is best for him. This is what actual true greed look like. If you ask me. 

Bloody disgusting. In this case quite literally bloody.


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## Oddsocks (May 4, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Trying my best not to be provoked by people putting forward the “wouldn’t you change job if you made X amount more”-argument. Lee Westwood have made 38 million € on the DP Tour and 24 million $ on the PGA Tour. Add on another, what, 20 million $ in endorsement?

“What’s best for me”. He’s quite right. It is indeed what is best for him. This is what actual true greed look like. If you ask me.

Bloody disgusting. In this case quite literally bloody.
		
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He’s does make a valid point about being release by bodies to play Saudi events in the past with no objection.

This is not trolling by any means before that’s a thought, but do you hold the same level of disgust for anyone who has competed in a Saudi event? If it’s blood money we shouldn’t be holding and pro sport events there golf or otherwise.


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## Lilyhawk (May 4, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			He’s does make a valid point about being release by bodies to play Saudi events in the past with no objection.

This is not trolling by any means before that’s a thought, but do you hold the same level of disgust for anyone who has competed in a Saudi event? If it’s blood money we shouldn’t be holding and pro sport events there golf or otherwise.
		
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I agree. No sporting events should be held there. But to answer your other question. No, I don’t hold the same level of disgust for all people. I reserve it for those who have already made more money than any “normal” human would or will ever be able to and whose families are already set for life for generations to come. 

And before anyone goes “what do you know about his/their private finances?”. Spare me.


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## larmen (May 4, 2022)

rulefan said:



			And now they seem to be inviting amateurs to play and get $140000 for coming last 

Click to expand...

Is there a certain standard I, ahm they, need to have? I would spend £500 on golf balls, the rest is profit pre tax ;-)

Not following this much. Are they struggling to fill a field, or are they selling themselves as giving opportunities to people like us? We see in other tournaments that amateurs usually struggle. The last one I remember having a decent result was Bryson the year before turning pro.


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## 4LEX (May 4, 2022)

This basically the pre Seniors Tour, Tour. A load of has beens playing who have no chance of winning majors or playing in the Ryder Cup. Pretty obscene and a terrible event to watch. The viewing figures would be lower than a snakes belly.

But if anyone of us were past their peak in their field of employment and a start up offered you 5 times the salary who would say no? There lies the issue.

Unless the European Tour get tough and ban anyone who plays, it'll give future events credibility and more players will sign up.


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2022)

Another 'interloper' (re)appears!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61328221


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## howbow88 (May 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			He’s does make a valid point about being release by bodies to play Saudi events in the past with no objection.
		
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Bodies and Saudi in the same sentence doesn't usually mean PGA and European Tour


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## howbow88 (May 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Another 'interloper' (re)appears!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61328221

Click to expand...

The last mention I heard of them would have been on the NLU podcast, a few months ago. I think the general consensus was that they would work with the PGA Tour, and run WGC style events a few times a year with ridiculous purses. I think their funding originally was oil money too, but they have since changed that...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 5, 2022)




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## Lilyhawk (May 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 42475

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Quite clearly someone with an awful agent who haven’t taught him that there isn’t such thing as obscene amount of money. No matter what your position in life is, more money is always good.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 5, 2022)

Fancy someone finding contentment. Richest pro golfer in the world based on that quote (deep moment there )


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## Ethan (May 5, 2022)

Good for McIntyre, but he is at an entirely different place in his career than Bland. McIntyre has the potential to break through as a global figure, and has yet to play in many majors. In 20-odd years when he has racked up millions of air miles, and he has a family and his joints are a bit more creaky, maybe his putting is getting twitchy and he has lost distance to the young bucks, he may have a different view, and retiring on a soft pile of cash might be attractive.


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## sweaty sock (May 5, 2022)

Devils advocate mode...

Is any one of us not supporting the saudi regime every day...

The list of companies they are heavily invested in is enormous 
BP
Facebook
Marriot
Newcastle Utd
Citibank
Boeing
Disney
Shell
Pfizer
Starbucks

The list goes on, and those are only the easy to find ones.  How many of us are going to turn our back on all those companies and their benefits as a stand against the saudi regime?

Devils advocate mode off.

If Robert MacIntyre is flush and happy, could he send his next few cheques my way? They'd really help...


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## Ethan (May 5, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Devils advocate mode...

Is any one of us not supporting the saudi regime every day...

The list of companies they are heavily invested in is enormous
BP
Facebook
Marriot
Newcastle Utd
Citibank
Boeing
Disney
Shell
Pfizer
Starbucks

The list goes on, and those are only the easy to find ones.  How many of us are going to turn our back on all those companies and their benefits as a stand against the saudi regime?

Devils advocate mode off.

If Robert MacIntyre is flush and happy, could he send his next few cheques my way? They'd really help...
		
Click to expand...

The PGA Tour would be just as unhappy if a rival global golf tour was set up in Texas. The fact it is bankrolled by the Saudi state is an additional issue that bothers some people but not others, but is probably not the primary one. 

As for Saudi being heavily invested in those other companies, investing in publicly traded companies is a bit different from bankrolling a new golf tour. I don't like the Saudi regime, but don't plan to boycott Pfizer or Marriott products, although I never much liked Newcastle Utd and don't like them any more since the Saudis got involved.


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Good for McIntyre, but he is at an entirely different place in his career than Bland. McIntyre has the potential to break through as a global figure, and has yet to play in many majors. In 20-odd years when he has racked up millions of air miles, and he has a family and his joints are a bit more creaky, maybe his putting is getting twitchy and he has lost distance to the young bucks, he may have a different view, and retiring on a soft pile of cash might be attractive.
		
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Is it the enjoyment for the game at the moment that is outshining the lure of a big pay cheque.

But I 100% agree, him and westy have are at the opposite ends of the spectrum and as such have completely opposite opinions.  Isn’t it funny how the big earners(Rory example) dismissed it but others who have never really been at the elite earning end have considered or in west us case moved.  Wouldn’t surprise me to see Donald there, once a number one but limited shelf life.

When people like Rory are signing huge deals (example the nike deal), asking for appearance money , attending events with but purses and so on, this will always come from big money sources and a percentage of this will be from similar sources as the Saudi league.  More attitudes like  bob macs will mean less requirement of big sponsors


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## Mel Smooth (May 5, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Devils advocate mode...

Is any one of us not supporting the saudi regime every day...

The list of companies they are heavily invested in is enormous
BP
Facebook
Marriot
Newcastle Utd
Citibank
Boeing
Disney
Shell
Pfizer
Starbucks

The list goes on, and those are only the easy to find ones.  How many of us are going to turn our back on all those companies and their benefits as a stand against the saudi regime?

Devils advocate mode off.

If Robert MacIntyre is flush and happy, could he send his next few cheques my way? They'd really help...
		
Click to expand...

The Uk - namely BAE - have sold over 20 billion pounds worth of arms to the Saudi's in the last 8 years. Those weapons have been used to kill people.


I'm pretty sure that of all the people that work for the company, some play golf.
I'm pretty sure some people will have investments with BAE systems in the form of shares.

Do we blackball all these people as well?


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## r0wly86 (May 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Is it the enjoyment for the game at the moment that is outshining the lure of a big pay cheque.

But I 100% agree, him and westy have are at the opposite ends of the spectrum and as such have completely opposite opinions.  Isn’t it funny how the big earners(Rory example) dismissed it but others who have never really been at the elite earning end have considered or in west us case moved.  Wouldn’t surprise me to see Donald there, once a number one but limited shelf life.

When people like Rory are signing huge deals (example the nike deal), asking for appearance money , attending events with but purses and so on, this will always come from big money sources and a percentage of this will be from similar sources as the Saudi league.  More attitudes like  bob macs will mean less requirement of big sponsors
		
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Westwood is worth $40m, he is the all time leading money maker on the European Tour with E38m, I am presuming that he has invested some of that fortune, he has no need to ever work again he could completely retire and live a life of luxury. Just because McIlroy and other stars are earning more doesn't mean it isn't greed to look past the human rights abuses to earn more millions, when you are already comfortable in the top 0.1% of earners in the UK


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

Greed or an opportunity? The only time you can block the liv / Saudi league on this basis is to block all Saudi based events which the bodies have not done to date.

You can’t expect athletes (loose term) to work by a separate set of rules as sanctioning bodies who are still prepared to host events there, it’s double standards


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## r0wly86 (May 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Greed or an opportunity? The only time you can block the liv / Saudi league on this basis is to block all Saudi based events which the bodies have not done to date.

You can’t expect athletes (loose term) to work by a separate set of rules as sanctioning bodies who are still prepared to host events there, it’s double standards
		
Click to expand...

Of course I can expect athletes to act according to their own set of ethics and morals, as I do with any individual person. Any person deciding to play on the Saudi Tour is essentially saying to their world that for enough money they do not care about supporting a country that routinely commits human rights abuses. This is greed pure and simple, especially as the likes of Westwood and Norman are already rich beyond most people's dreams, to support this regime which is what essentially sports washing does, legitimises are country's regime, for even more money beyond their already vast fortune is greed


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Of course I can expect athletes to act according to their own set of ethics and morals, as I do with any individual person. Any person deciding to play on the Saudi Tour is essentially saying to their world that for enough money they do not care about supporting a country that routinely commits human rights abuses. This is greed pure and simple, especially as the likes of Westwood and Norman are already rich beyond most people's dreams, to support this regime which is what essentially sports washing does, legitimises are country's regime, for even more money beyond their already vast fortune is greed
		
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So on that merit, why are tours still hosting events in them regions and accepting sponsors alike?

Again I say how can we expect athletes to work on ethics if the sanctioning body’s do not lead by example?

For me the body’s need to set a standard and stand by it, in this case it should be “ we will not support, promote or issue a release to any events in the regions of X/Y/Y.  Any release to events on these regions will come at the cost of a lifetime ban from both tours “

Others sports have done the same with Russia …


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## r0wly86 (May 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So on that merit, why are tours still hosting events in them regions and accepting sponsors alike?

Again I say how can we expect athletes to work on ethics if the sanctioning body’s do not lead by example?

For me the body’s need to set a standard and stand by it, in this case it should be “ we will not support, promote or issue a release to any events in the regions of X/Y/Y.  Any release to events on these regions will come at the cost of a lifetime ban from both tours “

Others sports have done the same with Russia …
		
Click to expand...

Because everyone has their own morals, to defer your morals to a governing body is the same argument as "I was just following orders" 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree with organisations dealing with Saudi Arabia and other like countries, but every player has the ability to make a decision on whether to play or not. Lots of people refuse or resign in protest of decisions made by governments or companies, if enough golfers took a principled stand the tour organisers would stop going there


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

I agree that everyone has their own morals, but the most powerful voice is a united one.  

Should every player on tour refuse to play Saudi (and alike) events in protest? They can’t because they have sponsorship responsibilities to represent at all events.


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2022)

The entire European Tour is sponsored by a company in a country that has sub-standard human rights, so any criticism of this new tour should also apply to the European Tour!
Oh and P&O is owned by the same company, so another reason to boycott them!
Mind you, a fair amount of London property, financial and commerce markets would suffer if that happened!


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The entire European Tour is sponsored by a company in a country that has sub-standard human rights, so any criticism of this new tour should also apply to the European Tour!
Oh and P&O is owned by the same company, so another reason to boycott them!
Mind you, a fair amount of London property, financial and commerce markets would suffer if that happened!
		
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This is exactly my point!  Thank you.

The euro tour should not be sanctioning events in this region, it’s should be accepting sponsorship from this reason, and if people choose to play the LIV events they officially align themselves to LIV events only and accept the career ban from PGA events.

The sanctioning bodies have to be just as open to public criticism as the players.


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## Foxholer (May 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			...
... and if people choose to play the LIV events they officially align themselves to LIV events only and *accept the career ban from PGA events*.
..
		
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The issue I see with that approach is that any ban by PGA (for example) is not on the grounds of humanitarianism, but on pure self-interest! Maintaining the duopoly (well almost monopoly) is all that's important to them!
And, as I described, The Euro Tour is in absolutely no position to argue anything but self-interest!


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## Imurg (May 5, 2022)

Maybe GMac will get a run at the Captaincy after all......


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## Oddsocks (May 5, 2022)

Just seen on twitter sergio blowing a fuse at an official hinting he is off too!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522303897397866496


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## Mel Smooth (May 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Just seen on twitter sergio blowing a fuse at an official hinting he is off too!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522303897397866496

Click to expand...

And the Tour admit they were wrong.....

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/sergio-garcia-ruling-heated-incident-mistake-pga-tour/


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522379898270236672


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## Mel Smooth (May 6, 2022)

Quite clearly, the LIV tour is going to take something away from the PGA and The European Tours, unless of course both those organisations take the logical decision to allow players the dispensation to play in whatever events they want.

Just read a few tweets from Brandon Chamblee - and he's mentioning the "worst regime on earth" in his justification to his opposition of the series - but it's quite clear he wants to protect what he sees as the number 1 tour, and is using the Saudi backing to the foundation of his argument.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 6, 2022)

Garcia going is perhaps one of the most significant losses to date. Still competitive on the PGA tour.


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## Oddsocks (May 6, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Garcia going is perhaps one of the most significant losses to date. Still competitive on the PGA tour.
		
Click to expand...

I’d say on current form quite comparable to westy


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## HomerJSimpson (May 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I’d say on current form quite comparable to westy
		
Click to expand...

Think on PGA form Garcia edges it but I get your point.


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## Ethan (May 6, 2022)

Garcia has always had a love-hate, mostly hate, relationship with PGA Tour galleries. He has his major now, his RC run is probably coming to an end, like Poulter, and he probably does not have the mental energy left to wait it out until the Champions Tour, so a couple of years hoovering up dough in Saudi and he heads back to Spain to buy a lower league football team as his late career/hobby.


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## Oddsocks (May 6, 2022)

I think the big targets are going to be those hovering between 20-40 in the world rankings, still good enough on their day to scoop a big pay cheque but should earn pretty well at most events as an average,


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## sweaty sock (May 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Garcia has always had a love-hate, mostly hate, relationship with PGA Tour galleries. He has his major now, his RC run is probably coming to an end, like Poulter, and he probably does not have the mental energy left to wait it out until the Champions Tour, so a couple of years hoovering up dough in Saudi and he heads back to Spain to buy a lower league football team as his late career/hobby.
		
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Doesnt he already own one?

Edit : no he doesnt  he has been president of one though...


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## Imurg (May 6, 2022)

The thing that annoys me most about Sergio's outburst is this...
Mate..you don't HAVE to be on this Tour anyway...if you don't like it then leave.....
But only when your multi million deal with LIV kicks in though......wouldn't want you going hungry....

Another player rapidly dropping down in my estimations........


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## Bazzatron (May 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The thing that annoys me most about Sergio's outburst is this...
Mate..you don't HAVE to be on this Tour anyway...if you don't like it then leave.....
But only when your multi million deal with LIV kicks in though......wouldn't want you going hungry....

Another player rapidly dropping down in my estimations........
		
Click to expand...

Made out like he's being held hostage and forced to make 54m all these years.


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## Lilyhawk (May 6, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Made out like he's being held hostage and forced to make 54m all these years.
		
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Gotta feel for the poor fella. He deserves a proper pay day to make sure he’ll be able to put food on the table.


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## Imurg (May 6, 2022)

MarkT said:



			See Westwood and Bland have asked for requests to play in the LIV Golf events - and here begins the Saudi golf bingo

I'll start the bidding with..... Independent contractor
		
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Is there a little bit of Karma going on right now as both the aforementioned appear to be missing the cut this week..?


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## Imurg (May 8, 2022)

The former #1 that Norman has been boasting about having signed up to his picnic appears to be Kaymer..


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## Lord Tyrion (May 8, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The former #1 that Norman has been boasting about having signed up to his picnic appears to be Kaymer..
		
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Not sure that will terrify the other tours too much. It goes along with the theme of older players, past their best.


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## Mel Smooth (May 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure that will terrify the other tours too much. It goes along with the theme of older players, past their best.
		
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Like Tiger - who dominates golf media whenever he turns up at a golf course?

I think the LIV series might surprise a few people, and I think the PGA and journos that are up it's backside know it.

Shotgun starts, team drafts, team colours, shorter and more engaging golf which will suit the viewing public. 

If Sergio and Westy were playing in any torunament, I'd still be drawn to watch them over some of the younger players, so there's no reason why they won't pull in the crowds for the LIV events. It will be interesting to see how the TV deal pans out - if it's accesible and not overly expensive, then people will tune in.


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## Blue in Munich (May 8, 2022)

Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?

And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?


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## Mel Smooth (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?

And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?
		
Click to expand...

Ideed, and Shell, who have a huge interest in Saudi Oil, used to sponsor a PGA Tour event. The hypocrisy is quite remarkable.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Like Tiger - who dominates golf media whenever he turns up at a golf course?

I think the LIV series might surprise a few people, and I think the PGA and journos that are up it's backside know it.

Shotgun starts, team drafts, team colours, shorter and more engaging golf which will suit the viewing public.

If Sergio and Westy were playing in any torunament, I'd still be drawn to watch them over some of the younger players, so there's no reason why they won't pull in the crowds for the LIV events. It will be interesting to see how the TV deal pans out - if it's accesible and not overly expensive, then people will tune in.
		
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I think they have binned off the team idea, it will be standard stroke play comps. 

Are you suggesting the names mentioned so far come anywhere near Tiger in creating media interest 🤭. Come on. They are pretty much all guys who no longer challenge, who are close to the seniors tour. All very good golfers, but on the decline from where they have been. It will get some interest, no question, but the public are not stupid and know a second rate competition. I'm not against this tour but so far the names don't challenge.


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## Mel Smooth (May 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think they have binned off the team idea, it will be standard stroke play comps.

Are you suggesting the names mentioned so far come anywhere near Tiger in creating media interest 🤭. Come on. They are pretty much all guys who no longer challenge, who are close to the seniors tour. All very good golfers, but on the decline from where they have been. It will get some interest, no question, but the public are not stupid and know a second rate competition. I'm not against this tour but so far the names don't challenge.
		
Click to expand...

These are the same names that we'd be mentioning when talking about Ryder Cup selesctions, one of the greatest sporting events there is. 

Have you any info on the team event being binned off, I've not see that myself and it still appears to be on the official website of the tour - infact it seems to be the backbone of the competition.

Nobody is suggesting this tour will usurp the majors, but it will certainly be more interesting to watch than a mundane 4 day tour. with very little action from the actual golf course.


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## Lilyhawk (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?

And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?
		
Click to expand...

I like you Rich, but the comparison of us peasants somehow try and source our own petrol is not a great argument (I think). Not picking out individual names, but the bigger picture, is there never a point when those that have it “all” can say: you know what, there’s a lot of things in this world that is wrong that we still do, but when this is directly sponsored by a regime that is chopping up journalists and stand for everything that is wrong then I don’t want to be a part of it. Money from golf has bought me that freedom, and this is simply a line that I don’t want to cross.

I understand that the money they’re paying is so good so it’s hard for a lot, or even most people to turn down, but there’s still plenty of those that could turn it down, simply because it’s the right thing to do, and who’s life won’t change one bit cause they already have all the money they need.

Where do you draw the line on what and where to play and/or buy or somehow support something inadvertently that is wrong? I don’t know exactly, but surely this has to be one of those things where, if you have the means, is one of them where you’d be looking yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what is it that I’m “supporting” by taking part?

For me, “I’m just a golfer” isn’t a valid argument. At the same time I understand that a lot of people who hasn’t set themselves and their families for generations to come to jump at this? Would I? Hell yes I would, but that is because at the end of the month I’m happy if I’ve got £200 to put into my savings. Sometimes I’m on overdraft with my account before the next pay check comes, so the money on the line would be truly life changing in my case.

As said. Money buys you freedom. For me, it’s just dissapointing that there aren’t more people like Bob McIntyre and Rory who says it so directly that they have a great life, and an extra few milllions that they’ve been blessed and worked hard for already just simply isn’t right given who is standing behind this.

On the topic of why it is acceptable for the European tour to accept money from Saudi previously. For me it isn’t. I don’t think they ever should’ve taken money from them, but as a corporation I somehow understand why. My girlfriend works for a well known clothing brand and in September she’s being put on a plane to go to Saudi Arabia for work. Neither I or her likes that, but we don’t have the financial means to say “to hell with that” as we’ve got a mortgage to pay. I’d love to tell her “you’re not going there” and we’ll sort it, but we simply aren’t in that position where we could do that.


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?

And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?
		
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Well you could switch to EV, get some solar then wouldn't have to worry 

However the point with the ET and this LIV tour is spot on tbh ..


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## woofers (May 8, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Where do you draw the line on what and where to play and/or buy or somehow support something inadvertently that is wrong? I don’t know exactly, but surely this has to be one of those things where, if you have the means, is one of them where you’d be looking yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what is it that I’m “supporting” by taking part?
		
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And doesn’t that apply beyond the players? 
What is it that any host club, sponsors, TV coverage, caterers, franchises, etc are “supporting” by signing up to do business with LIV?
As far as I’m concerned this also extends to anyone turning up to The Centurion Club as a paying spectator or corporate guest.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			These are the same names that we'd be mentioning when talking about Ryder Cup selesctions, one of the greatest sporting events there is.

Have you any info on the team event being binned off, I've not see that myself and it still appears to be on the official website of the tour - infact it seems to be the backbone of the competition.

Nobody is suggesting this tour will usurp the majors, but it will certainly be more interesting to watch than a mundane 4 day tour. with very little action from the actual golf course.
		
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Ryder Cup selections from yesteryear, when did Kaymer last play? Westwood had surely played his last, Donald (no confirmation there) isn't relevant. Only Garcia could potentially still play out of those mentioned and even he is on the cusp.

I haven't looked at their website, it was something I'd read. You could well be right 🤷


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## Blue in Munich (May 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



*Well you could switch to EV, get some solar then wouldn't have to worry*

However the point with the ET and this LIV tour is spot on tbh ..
		
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You were saying?

https://imaginethat.org/stories/how-much-oil-is-in-an-electric-vehicle/ 

What makes an EV (Electric Vehicle) run?
Oil and natural gas.
True fact.  They’re in every EV – every Chevy Bolt, every Toyota Prius, every Tesla anything.
Not in the form of fuel, no.  In the form of high-performance, engineered polymers (a fancy way to say “modern plastics”) made from petrochemicals, which come from oil and natural gas.  (And just for the record, many of those same polymers are also in non-EV cars and trucks.)


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
Have you any info on the team event being binned off, I've not see that myself and it still appears to be on the official website of the tour - infact it seems to be the backbone of the competition.
...
		
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Team comp (only) would make it dull for me.


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You were saying?

https://imaginethat.org/stories/how-much-oil-is-in-an-electric-vehicle/
What makes an EV (Electric Vehicle) run?
Oil and natural gas.
True fact.  They’re in every EV – every Chevy Bolt, every Toyota Prius, every Tesla anything.
Not in the form of fuel, no.  In the form of high-performance, engineered polymers (a fancy way to say “modern plastics”) made from petrochemicals, which come from oil and natural gas.  (And just for the record, many of those same polymers are also in non-EV cars and trucks.)

Click to expand...

Yet they are in all cars .. so once you get past the initial use of plastics etc you are down to what you put in to go


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You were saying?

https://imaginethat.org/stories/how-much-oil-is-in-an-electric-vehicle/
What makes an EV (Electric Vehicle) run?
Oil and natural gas.
True fact.  They’re in every EV – every Chevy Bolt, every Toyota Prius, every Tesla anything.
Not in the form of fuel, no.  In the form of high-performance, engineered polymers (a fancy way to say “modern plastics”) made from petrochemicals, which come from oil and natural gas.  (And just for the record, many of those same polymers are also in non-EV cars and trucks.)

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Gotta start somewhere!
Nobody, sensible, is saying EVs are 'environmentally friendly'. Just significantly less bad compared to Oil base fuelled ones.


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## woofers (May 8, 2022)

Maybe you could take the EV discussion elsewhere………please


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## Lilyhawk (May 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			And doesn’t that apply beyond the players?
What is it that any host club, sponsors, TV coverage, caterers, franchises, etc are “supporting” by signing up to do business with LIV?
As far as I’m concerned this also extends to anyone turning up to The Centurion Club as a paying spectator or corporate guest.
		
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I fully agree on all of it, but same thing applies there as well for me. If the cater job goes to a small company and this job comes in and it would mean that they would secure the survival of the company for the next few years I’d understand it, but if it came to, say Gordon Ramsay, just as an example, then I’d question it. I personally wouldn’t attend Centurion when they host it even if someone gave me a ticket and handed me £1,000 to do it.


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## Jason.H (May 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			And doesn’t that apply beyond the players?
What is it that any host club, sponsors, TV coverage, caterers, franchises, etc are “supporting” by signing up to do business with LIV?
As far as I’m concerned this also extends to anyone turning up to The Centurion Club as a paying spectator or corporate guest.
		
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Does this apply to the Saudi backed men’s and ladies European tour events?


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## Mel Smooth (May 8, 2022)

Ok, if you want to take a moral view, you're going to have to give up golf.

Performance 54 are partly owned by Sanabil investements.
Sanabil Investments are owned by the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia - the bad guys.
Performance 54 work with Titleist, Footjoy, Flightscope, Rick  Shiels - the list goes on.

They even worked with England Golf on launching the new WHS.


Sorry guys, better take up tiddlywinks or summat.

(I think this point has already been made a few times on this thread, but just thought it needed re-stating)


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## pauljames87 (May 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			Maybe you could take the EV discussion elsewhere………please
		
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Maybe however if fuel is going to be brought into the debate about if its moral etc then it's a choice we can make 

However I really don't think their is much wrong with the new tour 

Money all over the world is dirty 

The only reason this is an issue is because the PGA is making noise about their tour being under attack from potential talent stealing 

Their is room for both tours along with the DP tour


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## woofers (May 8, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Does this apply to the Saudi backed men’s and ladies European tour events?
		
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Yep, I’ve previously posted that I initially respected Paul Casey for not attending due to his UNICEF ambassador role and then my disappointment when he took the Saudi money in later events.
It would be so powerful if any of the sporting authorities, golf, F1, motoGP, etc were to say NO to the middle east countries and decided not to hold any events there.
Essential trade is one thing, politics and diplomacy can usually find a way to deal with these even if you have to hold your nose, but sport is not necessary and just tries to “legitimise“ the regimes.


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## HeftyHacker (May 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			Yep, I’ve previously posted that I initially respected Paul Casey for not attending due to his UNICEF ambassador role and then my disappointment when he took the Saudi money in later events.
It would be so powerful if any of the sporting authorities, golf, F1, motoGP, etc were to say NO to the middle east countries and decided not to hold any events there.
Essential trade is one thing, politics and diplomacy can usually find a way to deal with these even if you have to hold your nose, but sport is not necessary and just tries to “legitimise“ the regimes.
		
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The flipside of that is that by these international sports holding events in these countries it casts a spotlight on them and may play a role in dragging them into the modern world.

For clarity I work for a Saudi owned company and work with a number of Saudi men and women and find the vast majority of them to be really decent, intelligent and articulate individuals. 

People who have worked for the company longer than I have noticed a big change over quite a small period of time in Saudi culture as it becomes more westernised. So it may be that the change required actually comes from within. Sports events like this will give the Saudi nationals more exposure to a more Liberal way of life and may accelerate this change.


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## Oddsocks (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?

And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?
		
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Ive been saying this all along.


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## Foxholer (May 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can someone explain to me why it is, or was, acceptable for the European Tour to accept Saudi money to sponsor European tour events, but not acceptable for individual golfers to accept Saudi money from a Saudi tour as I'm struggling a little with the distinction here?
...
		
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See posts 219-221


Blue in Munich said:



			...
And given that our cars are probably all running on petrol distilled from Saudi oil, do we all need to start walking to the golf club before we start pointing fingers?
		
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Pretty much a necessity for a while. As is the continuation of import of Russian oil (18% of UK's Diesel consumption 8% overall; 0% Petrol; 5% of Jet Fuel) though there's been a commitment to phase that out within a year, and Gas (4% 'not dependent on it; exploring options to reduce this further'). 
By far the majority of UK imports  of both Oil and Gas come from Norway (13,1M tonnes) and US (11.45M Tonnes - Oil only).


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## BiMGuy (May 9, 2022)

Why was there not widespread condemnation of the people competing in the recent Winter Olympics? Where is the difference?* Or for playing in the US which itself is no stranger to human rights issues. The US might not be as bad as the Saudis but China is.

You’ll all turn a blind eye as long as your pension is doing well and you can buy cheap stuff from China.






* Money


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## Depreston (May 9, 2022)

There's more Newcastle fans on this board than i first thought


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## Golfnut1957 (May 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why was there not widespread condemnation of the people competing in the recent Winter Olympics? Where is the difference?* Or for playing in the US which itself is no stranger to human rights issues. The US might not be as bad as the Saudis but China is.

You’ll all turn a blind eye as long as your pension is doing well and you can buy cheap stuff from China.






* Money
		
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This all day long. Let's all condemn a golfer, but we'll turn a blind eye to the Saudi Air force which has the third-largest fleet of F15s in the world, a fleet of Tornados and will soon own a fleet of Typhoons. I wonder where they got that lot from.

I'm no lover of tyrannical governments, but while the world continues to do business with them, including individuals working in these countries, then I find this condemnation of these individual golfers all very hypocritical.

Chinas ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs is a fact, but the best golfers in the world regularly turn up there, and as for the (most corrupt organisation in the world) IOC, they practically condoned it.


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## Barking_Mad (May 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			This all day long. Let's all condemn a golfer, but we'll turn a blind eye to the Saudi Air force which has the third-largest fleet of F15s in the world, a fleet of Tornados and will soon own a fleet of Typhoons. I wonder where they got that lot from.

I'm no lover of tyrannical governments, but while the world continues to do business with them, including individuals working in these countries, then I find this condemnation of these individual golfers all very hypocritical.

Chinas ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs is a fact, but the best golfers in the world regularly turn up there, and as for the (most corrupt organisation in the world) IOC, they practically condoned it.
		
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This is all well and good, and true - but following this logic there's just zero personal responsiblity for anyone (in this case very rich golfers) because "everyone else is ignoring something worse". I mean that's a pretty handy free pass to do what you want. Westwood can't control what weapons are sold to Saudi, but he can take a personal decision on whether he should accept money from them. He's done that and will be judged for it. Im sure he'll sleep like a baby.

Edited to add: I can watch F1 and not point out the hypocrisy, but it doesn't change the fact bad stuff is happening and people are taking money from repressive regimes. These same people would have made excuses for apartheid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2022)

Good on Bob MacIntyre calling this out for what it is…

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf...obscene-money-to-be-throwing-at-sport-3680460


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## Liverpoolphil (May 11, 2022)




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## Newtonuti (May 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 42561

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Here we go then! This is going to court ALOT quicker then I thought it would.


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

So reading that, I'd say the PGA are going to get absolutely shafted by the lawyers.


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## howbow88 (May 11, 2022)

What makes you say that? There seems to be this really strange view recently that the PGA Tour have no control over who can and cannot play in their tournaments, but they really do. 

This letter is effectively saying 'if you go and play at a rival competition, you risk your chance of playing with us again.' And I have to say that to me, that doesn't sound particularly unreasonable. If you went to your boss and asked if you could take a couple of weeks off to go and work at a rival firm, I'm sure that they would deny that request. 

Now whilst the players aren't employees of the PGA Tour, that same principle applies. Saudi Golf is effectively trying to kill/devalue the PGA Tour and if any golfer is helping them to accomplish this, there clearly needs to be some sort of public deterrent in place to warn them and anyone else considering jumping ship.


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			What makes you say that? There seems to be this really strange view recently that the PGA Tour have no control over who can and cannot play in their tournaments, but they really do.

This letter is effectively saying 'if you go and play at a rival competition, you risk your chance of playing with us again.' And I have to say that to me, that doesn't sound particularly unreasonable. If you went to your boss and asked if you could take a couple of weeks off to go and work at a rival firm, I'm sure that they would deny that request.

Now whilst the players aren't employees of the PGA Tour, that same principle applies. Saudi Golf is effectively trying to kill/devalue the PGA Tour and if any golfer is helping them to accomplish this, there clearly needs to be some sort of public deterrent in place to warn them and anyone else considering jumping ship.
		
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Well their press release states that players can't be released to play events in North America. The players have requested a relase to play in North London. 

Hopefully there's more in the conracts that tie the players to the PGA than what is in that press release, because if there isn't, then they are going to get hammered by the legal teams of the LIV series.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 11, 2022)

Greg Norman gives an extended interview and still trying to justify the money https://www.skysports.com/golf/news...-tour-and-dismisses-links-to-saudi-government


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## howbow88 (May 11, 2022)

They have a massive handbook - probably not too dissimilar to ones found in most workplaces - and I imagine that there will be a section on rival tours and releases. The PGA Tour has seen off rival bids in the past pretty easily, but the issue here is that of money - the Saudis have a pretty much unlimited supply compared to the PGA Tour. But in terms of denying players releases, I don't think that they're doing anything wrong. 

I think this will be a long drawn out battle and I don't see who wins in the long term. The Saudis can bankroll it for a long time, but if in 5 years time their biggest stars are still just the like of Westwood and Poulter, I think they'll pull the plug.


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			They have a massive handbook - probably not too dissimilar to ones found in most workplaces - and I imagine that there will be a section on rival tours and releases. The PGA Tour has seen off rival bids in the past pretty easily, but the issue here is that of money - the Saudis have a pretty much unlimited supply compared to the PGA Tour. But in terms of denying players releases, I don't think that they're doing anything wrong.

I think this will be a long drawn out battle and I don't see who wins in the long term. The Saudis can bankroll it for a long time, but if in 5 years time their biggest stars are still just the like of Westwood and Poulter, I think they'll pull the plug.
		
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I expect it will have been resolved before 5 years is up, either the PGA accomodate the request for releases, or the guys who want to go to the LIV series won't renew their contracts with the PGA. Lets be honest, less work for more money - and more family time will appeal to plenty of them.

The PGA want to move to 12 hole courses I believe, golf is about to change one way or the other.


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## Barking_Mad (May 11, 2022)

Here come the internet lawyers 😁


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## IainP (May 11, 2022)

Have 'PGA Tour' players had to make these requests to play on what was the European tour, or was there some in place agreement?


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## Imurg (May 11, 2022)

IainP said:



			Have 'PGA Tour' players had to make these requests to play on what was the European tour, or was there some in place agreement?
		
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I could be wrong but as long as the requested event doesn't directly conflict with a PGA event ..ie another event in USA/Canada then the request is normally granted.
The problem with the Saudi League is that it's a series of events, half of which are in the USA and will directly conflict with the PGA.
Hence the denial 
If the Centurion event was standalone then it wouldn't have been an issue.


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Here come the internet lawyers 😁
		
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Not at all, but in their own statement they've admitted the event can't be in North America - it isn't, and that they've allowed it before. 

If you were making a judgement on whether the PGA can refuse to release players, you'd want a bit more reasoning than that.


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## Jason.H (May 11, 2022)

It could be a case of playing LIV and falling back in with DP World events if PGA are going to be so devisive.


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## AussieKB (May 11, 2022)

Think the PGA must be worried, can see the Lawyers eyeing a big pay day.


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## Slab (May 11, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			It could be a case of playing LIV and falling back in with DP World events if PGA are going to be so devisive.
		
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Do you reckon with the PGA declining first, the European Tour will follow the PGA lead and decline release because of their 'special relationship'


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## Depreston (May 11, 2022)

What even is the format going to be


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## Jason.H (May 11, 2022)

Slab said:



			Do you reckon with the PGA declining first, the European Tour will follow the PGA lead and decline release because of their 'special relationship'
		
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Hope not. Saudi golf  already involved with some women’s European events.


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## MarkT (May 11, 2022)

Has anyone heard whether women can play in this? If they can't get the PGA Tour players and they're already onto the amateurs then would it not be a good fit to go after some of the leading women?


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Has anyone heard whether women can play in this? If they can't get the PGA Tour players and they're already onto the amateurs then would it not be a good fit to go after some of the leading women?
		
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Get onto Greg now. Clever idea 

(no sarcasm there by the way, it's a good idea)


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## IanM (May 11, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Has anyone heard whether women can play in this? If they can't get the PGA Tour players and they're already onto the amateurs then would it not be a good fit to go after some of the leading women?
		
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Not been mentioned,  but would certainly be a differentiator!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Has anyone heard whether women can play in this? If they can't get the PGA Tour players and they're already onto the amateurs then would it not be a good fit to go after some of the leading women?
		
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From the interview Norman gave on R4Today this morning it sounds like he isnt - he said they had offered but they Ladies PGA and LET had both turned the offer down.  Of course that doesn’t mean they won’t make individual offers to women.


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## AddisonRoad (May 11, 2022)

In the long run, I don't believe the Saudi golf league will be viable. They can't replicate the allure of the PGA and the various majors on offer (from a fan's perspective). This isn't similar to a mega league in another sport - there aren't multiple leagues with star-studded players that are already competing against one another (LIV isn't attempting to poach the best players from various leagues, they just want all the PGA's players). Everyone seems to think they'll just bankroll it at a loss for five years. Whereas I honestly think it will be over after this series.

From an in-person spectator's position, they're already pricing their tickets way above the European Tour - and for a less appealing product. I don't understand how they haven't made tickets £10 for the inaugural event. Expensive tickets with a limited lineup is looking unlikely to produce a crowd worth talking about.


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## HeftyHacker (May 11, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			From an in-person spectator's position, they're already pricing their tickets way above the European Tour - and for a less appealing product. I don't understand how they haven't made tickets £10 for the inaugural event. Expensive tickets with a limited lineup is looking unlikely to produce a crowd worth talking about.
		
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Rick Shiels said the same on his podcast. Who is going to pay £70 for a ticket when they don't even know who will be playing? As you say they should be £10 a ticket and try to drum up a decent crowd. Its not like they can't afford it given the sums being bandied about as prize money.

£70 quid a ticket isn't going to get 10,000 punters through the gates in a weekend whereas £10 might get 70,000 through given its proximity to London etc.


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## Jason.H (May 11, 2022)

I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick Shiels  would attend and get a you tube video on it. Love or hate the idea of the LIV tour there’s a lot of people talking about it around the world


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## 4LEX (May 11, 2022)

They've gone about this in the wrong way totally.

They should've at first sponsored two flagship events on the PGA and DP World Tours and had an incredible first prize like £5m. This would've attracted the best fields and both tours are so greedy anyway, they would've been happy to have a wealthy sponsor, regardless of the spectre of sportwashing. You give it 4-5 years and these events become like unofficial majors. Over that time you can gradually influence people and poach key non playing personnel from both tours. Then if you really want a new World Golf Tour you make a move and set up a mini one that doesn't clash with any other big event on both tours. Gradually increasing the prize money and within another few years they would be in a fantastic position to do what they wanted.

The reality is they've rushed in and appointed two of the worst possible faces for it in Player and Norman. As a result they've acted in a flash, arrogant and shameful manner which has got everyones backs up. Throw in the Mickelson debacle and it's off to about the worst start possible.

I couldn't think of anything worse than watching grinders like Bland or Poulter around a soulless members only venue and being charged £70 for it


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## IainP (May 11, 2022)

Slab said:



			Do you reckon with the PGA declining first, the European Tour will follow the PGA lead and decline release because of their 'special relationship'
		
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Yep, they did earlier.

Guess it is a 'who blinks first' situation now.


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## IainP (May 11, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			In the long run, I don't believe the Saudi golf league will be viable. They can't replicate the allure of the PGA and the various majors on offer (from a fan's perspective). 
...
		
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It may be 'majors' could be a big influence on the end game. Also the world ranking system.
Notionally the majors allocate (or invite) players who play on all sorts of tours. And the world rankings are influenced by the field ranking.


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Rick Shiels said the same on his podcast. Who is going to pay £70 for a ticket when they don't even know who will be playing? As you say they should be £10 a ticket and try to drum up a decent crowd. Its not like they can't afford it given the sums being bandied about as prize money.

£70 quid a ticket isn't going to get 10,000 punters through the gates in a weekend whereas £10 might get 70,000 through given its proximity to London etc.
		
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If they'd charged a tenner, they'd have been accussed of cheap tickets to influence the favour of the fans over the source of the funding.. aka - Sportswashing. 

£70 just outside London, seems like a decent price to me - I'm guessing you could even get the train up there from London Central?

You can go to the Scottish Open for £25 if you want to save a few quid, but by the time you've paid for fuel and accomodation, it's gonna be way more than £70


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## fundy (May 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If they'd charged a tenner, they'd have been accussed of cheap tickets to influence the favour of the fans over the source of the funding.. aka - Sportswashing.

£70 just outside London, seems like a decent price to me - I'm guessing you could even get the train up there from London Central?

You can go to the Scottish Open for £25 if you want to save a few quid, but by the time you've paid for fuel and accomodation, it's gonna be way more than £70
		
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£70 to watch a few has been and a few never will be golfers round Centurion is a decent price? Each to their own I guess. Especially when you try and buy food and drink there

Seems awful compared to walking inside the ropes for final open qualifying at st andrews, st annes, hollinwell or princes. Field will have better depth in final open qualifying too lol


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## Ethan (May 11, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Rick Shiels said the same on his podcast. Who is going to pay £70 for a ticket when they don't even know who will be playing? As you say they should be £10 a ticket and try to drum up a decent crowd. Its not like they can't afford it given the sums being bandied about as prize money.

£70 quid a ticket isn't going to get 10,000 punters through the gates in a weekend whereas £10 might get 70,000 through given its proximity to London etc.
		
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Maybe they are trying the old 'price it high and people will think it is quality' trick?


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## Mel Smooth (May 11, 2022)

fundy said:



			£70 to watch a few has been and a few never will be golfers round Centurion is a decent price? Each to their own I guess. Especially when you try and buy food and drink there

Seems awful compared to walking inside the ropes for final open qualifying at st andrews, st annes, hollinwell or princes. Field will have better depth in final open qualifying too lol
		
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Well you don't know who will be there yet, but Poulter, Mickelson, Sergio and Westwood are all class players that have won a number of events/majors and fought in god knows how many Ryder Cups - they've also got a bit of "spunk" about them, which will add to the appeal. Get Patrick Reed in there as well, the guy everybody loves to hate, and you're starting to get something waaaay more interesting than some pointless PGA event in Canada. 

And the final day is on a Saturday. Hallelulah.


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## fundy (May 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well you don't know who will be there yet, but Poulter, Mickelson, Sergio and Westwood are all class players that have won a number of events/majors and fought in god knows how many Ryder Cups - they've also got a bit of "spunk" about them, which will add to the appeal. Get Patrick Reed in there as well, the guy everybody loves to hate, and you're starting to get something waaaay more interesting than some pointless PGA event in Canada.

And the final day is on a Saturday. Hallelulah.
		
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enjoy your day out, shouldnt be too crowded


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## Imurg (May 11, 2022)

DP World Tour is reported to have denied requests too...


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## sunshine (May 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I couldn't think of anything worse than watching grinders like Bland or Poulter around a soulless members only venue and being charged £70 for it 

Click to expand...

Season ticket at St James Park?


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			...
I couldn't think of anything worse than watching grinders like Bland or Poulter around a soulless members only venue and being charged £70 for it 

Click to expand...

Centurion is hardly a soulless course imo. Some really rather good holes - starting with the 1st. And plenty of variety of style as well.
Price is definitely too much though.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 11, 2022)

fundy said:



			£70 to watch a few has been and a few never will be golfers round Centurion is a decent price? Each to their own I guess. Especially when you try and buy food and drink there

Seems awful compared to walking inside the ropes for final open qualifying at st andrews, st annes, hollinwell or princes. Field will have better depth in final open qualifying too lol
		
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Have to agree. Been to a couple of final qualifiers and seen former tour winners, ex Ryder Cup players and an ex-major champion. A far better field than has been announced. I really can't see this being more than an expensive fairground peep show for a few years, the players then having to serve some sort of ban and going back to their respective tours with their tails between their legs or loiter for the champions tours and hope serving a few years in the wilderness gets them in


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## HeftyHacker (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If they'd charged a tenner, they'd have been accussed of cheap tickets to influence the favour of the fans over the source of the funding.. aka - Sportswashing.

£70 just outside London, seems like a decent price to me - I'm guessing you could even get the train up there from London Central?

You can go to the Scottish Open for £25 if you want to save a few quid, but by the time you've paid for fuel and accomodation, it's gonna be way more than £70
		
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I used London as an example of a large market for punters. I'm actually in Lancashire so roughly equidistant for the Scottish Open and this event. For me, currently it would be a no brainer given the strength of the field that generally turns up for the Scottish Open and the price difference... plus i also much prefer Edinburgh to London.

I think no matter what this tour does it would be accused of sportswashing so they may as well accept that and offer the cheap tickets to generate a bit of buzz at the event itself.


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Has anyone heard whether women can play in this? If they can't get the PGA Tour players and they're already onto the amateurs then would it not be a good fit to go after some of the leading women?
		
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Unfortunately, the Ladies game simply doesn't have the crowd-pulling clout that Men's golf does! Same applies/No different to Women's Football and Women's Rugby currently.
Any move to allow/attract the top Ladies, at this stage, would be seen as an admission of weakness of the concept/proposal and a 'victory for the PGA' imo, so is highly unlikely to happen imo.
As for the cost of tickets, it's probably about twice the price I would consider appropriate - certainly at this stage of the Tour.


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## howbow88 (May 12, 2022)

The £70 is laughable. One way to put pressure on the PGA Tour and European Tour, and also tv companies to start showing these events, would be if the golfing public started getting behind it. If over the next few years Saudi Golf became a travelling circus, getting huge gate numbers, then that would help them. Most golf people I know wouldn't be interested in going to this event, but could have their arm twisted if the cost represented great value. 

Spin it however you want - £70 a ticket is not good value.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, the Ladies game simply doesn't have the crowd-pulling clout that Men's golf does! Same applies/No different to Women's Football and Women's Rugby currently.
*Any move to allow/attract the top Ladies, at this stage, would be seen as an admission of weakness *and a 'victory for the PGA' imo, so is highly unlikely to happen imo.
As for the cost of tickets, it's probably about twice the price I would consider appropriate - certainly at this stage of the Tour.
		
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I can't believe in 2022, attitudes like this still exist!!

Really?


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I can't believe in 2022, attitudes like this still exist!!

Really?
		
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Who's - and what - attitudes are you calling out?
I'm not talking about attitudes to Ladies golf btw. I'm talking about a change of tack in the nature of the event, that would be seen, or at least deemed, an admission of failure by opponents. Nothing to do with attitudes to Ladies golf per se.
FWIW, I've been to more top level Ladies tournaments than I have Mens ones.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Who's - and what - attitudes are you calling out?
I'm not talking about attitudes to Ladies golf btw. I'm talking about a change of tack in the nature of the event, that would be seen, or at least deemed, an admission of failure by opponents. Nothing to do with attitudes to Ladies golf per se.
FWIW, I've been to more top level Ladies tournaments than I have Mens ones.
		
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I'm calling out anybody that thinks a move to attract top ladies would be seen as a position of weakness. The LIV series has stated quite clearly it wants to grow the game - having women involved with the males would definitely take the game in a direction it has struggled with for far too long.


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm calling out anybody that thinks a move to attract top ladies would be seen as a position of weakness. The LIV series has stated quite clearly it wants to grow the game - having women involved with the males would definitely take the game in a direction it has struggled with for far too long.
		
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Perhaps. But it's *the fact of a change *of tack that would be seen/pushed as weakness, *not what the change* of tack was. Same would apply to a change of pricing of ticket to a more appropriate (imo) value.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps. But it's the fact of a change of tack that would be seen/pushed as weakness, not what the change of tack was. Same would apply to a change of pricing of ticket to a more appropriate (imo) value.
		
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Well personally I'd love to see a mixed event - there's no reason why it couldn't happen, and it would definitely add some extra dimensions and interest. If people see that as "weakness", then I'd question their attitudes.


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## IainP (May 12, 2022)

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/li...ces-free-kids-tickets-and-on-site-experiences


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

IainP said:



https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/li...ces-free-kids-tickets-and-on-site-experiences

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This is welcome news, I wouldn't be able to attend the London event myself, but was looking around yesterday to see if there was any info on prices for kids. Looks like they are putting on quite a lot of attractions for them.


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## Slab (May 12, 2022)

If the PGA are ‘nervous’ about this then the ET must be cacking it. Theirs must be the more at risk tour to any new venture and (despite being a fan) the ET seems just as diluted/poor relation this year

As usual the R2D is headed by players who’ll barely play more than a couple of ET events all year and yesterday Rory get voted player of the month for April (public vote) 
April !! he didn’t even play in an ET event. 
Not his fault of course but why was he (& Lowry (2nd) even on the list to vote for? Their only ‘contribution’ to the ET in April was to play in the US Masters which is co-sanctioned in name only (& Rory only had one round in the 60’s) That’s it. And the pair scooped well over 50% of the vote between them
I can only think his (terrific) hole out on the 18th on Sunday was enough to gazump anything done by the guys playing a proper ET schedule. The ET players must all be hoping to break through on the PGA or that the LIV takes off, if that’s all the recognition they can expect from the ET  

(I really hope the ET can turn things around but they don’t help themselves with nonsense like this)


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## howbow88 (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The LIV series has stated quite clearly it wants to grow the game
		
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Hahahaha, do you seriously believe that rubbish?

You can defend the concept, defend where the money is coming from, defend the crazy ticket price, fine. But you cannot seriously believe that the Saudis just want to 'grow the game'


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## HomerJSimpson (May 12, 2022)

Interesting https://www.skysports.com/golf/news...mans-liv-andrew-coltart-saga-will-drag-on-yet


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## Golfnut1957 (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well personally I'd love to see a mixed event - there's no reason why it couldn't happen, and it would definitely add some extra dimensions and interest. If people see that as "weakness", then I'd question their attitudes.
		
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You can question people's attitudes all you want, but it is a fact that people are less interested in women's sport than they are in men's sport, a fact backed up by both attendance and viewing figures. I would never knock the quality or the standard of the product but then I couldn't as I never watch any of it, I have no interest in it at all bar the occasional LPGA event when there is nothing else on.


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## Lilyhawk (May 12, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Hahahaha, do you seriously believe that rubbish?

You can defend the concept, defend where the money is coming from, defend the crazy ticket price, fine. But you cannot seriously believe that the Saudis just want to 'grow the game' 

Click to expand...

You’re such a cynic! Why would you not believe these fine altruistic Saudis? 🤣


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## larmen (May 12, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			You can question people's attitudes all you want, but it is a fact that people are less interested in women's sport than they are in men's sport, a fact backed up by both attendance and viewing figures. I would never knock the quality or the standard of the product but then I couldn't as I never watch any of it, I have no interest in it at all bar the occasional LPGA event when there is nothing else on.
		
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There is something tennis must have been doing right/different compared to all other sports. Maybe whatever they did needs to be replicated.


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## Golfnut1957 (May 12, 2022)

larmen said:



			There is something tennis must have been doing right/different compared to all other sports. Maybe whatever they did needs to be replicated.
		
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Shoot me for my message, but I don't think it's that odd. Traditional women's sports such as tennis, gymnastics, golf etc, have always been relatively well-supported. I don't watch any tennis, but I understand that many people prefer ladies tennis to men's, for its subtleties.
I think the problem arises when people start to look for equality with established men's sports and introduce competing leagues such a football and rugby. It might for all I know be a quality product, but my sports viewing time is finite, and I'm going to spend it watching the North London derby. There's a pecking order and women's football is quite some way down it, although it probably comes above any Scottish football


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Hahahaha, do you seriously believe that rubbish?

You can defend the concept, defend where the money is coming from, defend the crazy ticket price, fine. But you cannot seriously believe that the Saudis just want to 'grow the game' 

Click to expand...

The concept of the LIV series is new, and it will offer a different experience to how people view golf, making it easier and more exciting to watch.
Can you explain to me how that doesn’t potentially grow the game?


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

larmen said:



			There is something tennis must have been doing right/different compared to all other sports. Maybe whatever they did needs to be replicated.
		
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Women's Tennis has always been a 'different game' to the Men's one, but the 'battle' is just as compelling. Men v Women (Singles) at the top level just simply wouldn't work.


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## Swango1980 (May 12, 2022)

larmen said:



			There is something tennis must have been doing right/different compared to all other sports. Maybe whatever they did needs to be replicated.
		
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I think the big difference with tennis is that both Men and Women play simultaneously within the same overall tournament. So, someone tunes in to watch Wimbledon, US Open, etc. they could just as easily be watching a mens match or womens match when they tune in. You could argue the same with athletics. When we tune in to watch the Olympics, there will be both male and female events. In tennis, it is also probably harder for the viewer to distinguish between the physical advantages men have over women. Maybe they do in serving, but powerful serves and aces probably are not overly appealing for viewers anyway.

However, with other sports men and women do not play together. Perhaps if, for example, Masters weekend had both the mens event and womens event (along with all other big tournaments), then the ladies game would get more exposure. However, probably unlikely due to the length of time it takes to play golf (and the fact the tournament is only 4 days), and no one would want them to played completely in parallel as they'd be competing for viewing time. Could maybe do it for football easier. The World Cup could feature both the mens and womens game during the month. No doubt the mens game would still be more popular (certainly to begin with), but I'm sure more would also tune in to watch some of the ladies games, and it could grow from there.


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## JamesR (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The concept of the LIV series is new, and* it will offer a different experience to how people view golf, making it easier and more exciting to watch*.
Can you explain to me how that doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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How will it?


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

JamesR said:



			How will it?
		
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There’s enough information on that within this thread mate. Or you could just go on the LIV website to decide for yourself.


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## Lilyhawk (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The concept of the LIV series is new, and it will offer a different experience to how people view golf, making it easier and more exciting to watch.
Can you explain to me how that doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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You’re moving the goalposts as you go along. Will it grow the game? Maybe, maybe not. You don’t know, I don’t know. But that wasn’t the starting point of this. What will happen is a separate thing to what the purpose of it is. You take their word for it that the reason for this new series coming about is to “grow the game”. That’s somewhat, naive, shall we say - me thinks.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			You’re moving the goalposts as you go along. Will it grow the game? Maybe, maybe not. You don’t know, I don’t know. But that wasn’t the starting point of this. What will happen is a separate thing to what the purpose of it is. You take their word for it that the reason for this new series coming about is to “grow the game”. That’s somewhat, naive, shall we say - me thinks.
		
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Nothing naive about it. 

Can you explain to me how a new format of golf that will appeal to more people doesn’t potentially grow the game?


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## Lilyhawk (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nothing naive about it.

Can you explain to me how a new format of golf that will appeal to more people doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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It might do, it may not. As I said in last my reply to you already. But that wasn’t the question from how this discussion started. It was the purpose of why it’s starting.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			It might do, it may not. As I said in last my reply to you already. But that wasn’t the question from how this discussion started. It was the purpose of why it’s starting.
		
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Do you know why it’s starting?
The common view is sportswashing, and personally I’ve no reason to disbelieve that. 
It doesn’t change the fact that golf needs to change, and move forwards - and the LIV series is a great opportunity to do that. 
If I was in the uk in June, I’d absolutely be going down the M1 to check it out.


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## Lilyhawk (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you know why it’s starting?
The common view is sportswashing, and personally I’ve no reason to disbelieve that.
It doesn’t change the fact that golf needs to change, and move forwards - and the LIV series is a great opportunity to do that.
If I was in the uk in June, I’d absolutely be going down the M1 to check it out.
		
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Do I know? No, I don’t. I can make a fairly educated guess I believe, but none of that would include an actual interest in “growing the game”. To get a wider acceptance for Saudi Arabia by using the worlds best golfers as poster boys for LIV, and in the end become the number 1 golf tour on the planet would be my guess.

That golf HAS to change is nothing but your opinion. I don’t necessarily agree, and in particular not by the help from LIV.


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## Depreston (May 12, 2022)

Wonder what the teams will be … the team event on the PGA tour is a bit crap as it’s just normally 2 randoms playing with each other 

Team golf can be great but I need something to root for


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## AussieKB (May 12, 2022)

What is wrong with having more Golf Tournaments being played at the same time ?
PGA members then can earn more money which as a Union is a good thing.

What are they afraid about ? and what happens when the lawyers get involved ?
Will the PGA suspend Phil and stop him defending his PGA title, would look pretty silly and petty.


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## ColchesterFC (May 12, 2022)

Greg Norman has defended the Saudis by saying that "we all make mistakes". I can well remember that time I went out with some mates for a couple of beers and ended up chopping up a journalist that I disagreed with. We've all done it. Just told the police "we all make mistakes" and they sent me on my way.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Do I know? No, I don’t. I can make a fairly educated guess I believe, but none of that would include an actual interest in “growing the game”. To get a wider acceptance for Saudi Arabia by using the worlds best golfers as poster boys for LIV, and in the end become the number 1 golf tour on the planet would be my guess.

That golf HAS to change is nothing but your opinion. I don’t necessarily agree, and in particular not by the help from LIV.
		
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Of course, it’s purely my opinion but golf doesn’t appeal


AussieKB said:



			What is wrong with having more Golf Tournaments being played at the same time ?
PGA members then can earn more money which as a Union is a good thing.

What are they afraid about ? and what happens when the lawyers get involved ?
Will the PGA suspend Phil and stop him defending his PGA title, would look pretty silly and petty.
		
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Exactly, the LIV tour could easily run in conjunction with the other tours, but the PGA have decided they want all the slices of the pie, the DP tour pretty much following their lead.

Mind you, it’s representative of the ‘change is bad’ outdated attitudes that resonate in golf.


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## Swango1980 (May 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Wonder what the teams will be … the team event on the PGA tour is a bit crap as it’s just normally 2 randoms playing with each other

Team golf can be great but I need something to root for
		
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Agreed. You've got to have a sense of attachment for a team. Whether you support a club or country. It is why the Ryder Cup works so well, as it is a genuinely engrossing team format of golf where we all know who we support. 

Even at club level, I'm sure we'd all support our own club doing well in team events to some degree or another. Whereas, we couldn't care less what "team" wins the summer pairs (outside the pair we are actually in), as it is just a bunch of random pairs, even if a few have played together for years.

So, the last events I ever think of watching are the pair events on the PGA Tour (or any Tour). They are just gimmicky and I really have no care in the world who wins. Even if you have a favourite golfer playing, their performance is diluted by the fact they are playing with someone else, who may be dragging them down or carrying them.


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## Depreston (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course, it’s purely my opinion but golf doesn’t appeal


Exactly, the LIV tour could easily run in conjunction with the other tours, but the PGA have decided they want all the slices of the pie, the DP tour pretty much following their lead.

Mind you, it’s representative of the ‘change is bad’ outdated attitudes that resonate in golf.
		
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It could have but it's a two way street also ... from what i've heard is that there was no real communication between the LIV tour and PGA tour tbf the whole process sound like it's been an absolute mess


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



			It could have but it's a two way street also ... from what i've heard is that there was no real communication between the LIV tour and PGA tour tbf the whole process sound like it's been an absolute mess
		
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Well Gregg Norman is on record as saying he doesn’t want to compete with the other tours, clearly, they don’t feel the same way.


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## Depreston (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well Gregg Norman is on record as saying he doesn’t want to compete with the other tours, clearly, they don’t feel the same way.
		
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he certainly hasn't shown an cooperation to get the two tours to work in harmony either 

The whole LIV tour has been an absolute fiasco of course the PGA Tour aren't just going to release the best players at their whim Norman went about it completely the wrong way and now he's crying that he's pissed them all off


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## peld (May 12, 2022)

As has been said, sadly, the ET is very very much the poor mans tour now, and unless you are a young guy just starting off, I can see why you'd want to go and play the LIV tour for some decent money


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## howbow88 (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well Gregg Norman is on record as saying he doesn’t want to compete with the other tours, clearly, they don’t feel the same way.
		
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It sounds like you would believe in the tooth fairy if Saudi golf told you it was a real thing.


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## Crow (May 12, 2022)

If this forum is anything to go by, the Saudi Super League has generated a huge amount of interest.


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## Golfnut1957 (May 12, 2022)

Crow said:



			If this forum is anything to go by, the Saudi Super League has generated a huge amount of interest.
		
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It is probably the hottest topic in golf at the moment. Sky are all over it, it is being covered by the BBC, GolfWRX have a 41 page thread, and it is constantly top of the forum here. Which is all very strange for a concept for which I can buy expensive tickets to watch I know not whom yet. Even stranger is the fact that at this moment in time it doesn't look as if I will be able to watch it on TV. Looking on their site there is very little information about anything other than tickets.

 So we can discuss it to our hearts content, but I doubt many of us will be watching, whether we want to or not.


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## IanM (May 12, 2022)

£70?  No thanks.


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## Imurg (May 12, 2022)

Apparently we all make mistakes.....so says Greg....😳


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## Liverpoolphil (May 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Apparently we all make mistakes.....so says Greg....😳
		
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Is that inbetween his crying about not being given an exemption to The Open


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## IanM (May 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Apparently we all make mistakes.....so says Greg....😳
		
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He'd know


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			...
That golf HAS to change is nothing but your opinion. I don’t necessarily agree, and in particular not by the help from LIV.
		
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So you're happy that it continues, at least in Europe, unchanged - primarily supported by a regime with an equally poor attitude to human rights, such as to the P&O workers its' subordinate company illegally terminated?
FWIW, it doesn't seem right for the PGA to call its players 'independent contractors', then prevent them from playing elsewhere, or to punish them - supposedly 'for life' - if they do so. Seems rather monopolisistic to me!


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## Imurg (May 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that inbetween his crying about not being given an exemption to The Open
		
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He was answering a question about chopping up journalists.....


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## sunshine (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The concept of the LIV series is new, and it will offer a different experience to how people view golf, making it easier and more exciting to watch.
Can you explain to me how that doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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It would be helpful if you could call out the key things that make the series really appealing to you? Would help me understand how this could be a good idea. 

I’m struggling to see how it’s different enough from what exists already. 
thanks.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Lots of people on here falling for the msm narrative rather than doing a little research of their own I see.


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## ColchesterFC (May 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW, it doesn't seem right for the PGA to call its players 'independent contractors', then prevent them from playing elsewhere, or to punish them - supposedly 'for life' - if they do so. Seems rather monopolisistic to me!
		
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Was it the PGA or Norman that first suggested that players were "independent contractors"? If they are independent contractors that have signed up to only play on the PGA tour and not on any competing tours then they can't play in the LIV. If they are independent contractors that are allowed to play on other tours then does the PGA tour have to actively ban them or can they simply stop inviting the independent contractors to play in their events? Could the PGA tour make it clear that if as an independent contractor you choose to play on the LIV then you will not be invited to take part in the US Open or US PGA? And possibly also come to some kind of agreement with Augusta and the R&A to do the same for the Masters and Open?


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## sunshine (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lots of people on here falling for the msm narrative rather than doing a little research of their own I see.
		
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ok but what does that mean? Stating you have a different opinion is fine, explaining it is even better 🤷‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lots of people on here falling for the msm narrative rather than doing a little research of their own I see.
		
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What narrative are you falling for?


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			ok but what does that mean? Stating you have a different opinion is fine, explaining it is even better 🤷‍♂️
		
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Have you watched the Norman interview mate, I've watched what I thought was most of it, and there's no part where, when asked about Kashogi, Norman says "we all make mistakes"

He does say "It's absolutely reprehensible what happened with Kashogi"

But the MSM haven't been reporting that, they've been twisting his words.,and clearly, people are taking that as gospel


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What narrative are you falling for?
		
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I think I've taken a broad view. 
Westwood, Sanibal Investments, Performance 54, Garcia and the way he was hung out at the weekend, the Norman interview.

And of course the msm. Sky, the media aligned with the PGA, etc.


The concept of the LIV has legs, but the "establishment" re doing ther utmost to kick those legs from under it imho.


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Was it the PGA or Norman that first suggested that players were "independent contractors"? If they are independent contractors that have signed up to only play on the PGA tour and not on any competing tours then they can't play in the LIV. If they are independent contractors that are allowed to play on other tours then does the PGA tour have to actively ban them or can they simply stop inviting the independent contractors to play in their events? Could the PGA tour make it clear that if as an independent contractor you choose to play on the LIV then you will not be invited to take part in the US Open or US PGA? And possibly also come to some kind of agreement with Augusta and the R&A to do the same for the Masters and Open?
		
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I believe it was the PGA and unrelated to LIV.
The rest comes down to their contractual arrangements. But it doesn't really seem that they are 'truly' independent contractors if they have to seek permission to play elsewhere. And I believe the term 'entitled' has been bandied around, not 'invited', which is more a Masters term.
And as th PGA Tour does not actually run either the US Open (run by USA)or US PGA  (unsurprisingly run by US PGA) they don't specifcally have that say!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ikebra...the-pga-handicap-its-golfers/?sh=775c2b2e784c


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## sunshine (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you watched the Norman interview mate, I've watched what I thought was most of it, and there's no part where, when asked about Kashogi, Norman says "we all make mistakes"

He does say "It's absolutely reprehensible what happened with Kashogi"

But the MSM haven't been reporting that, they've been twisting his words.,and clearly, people are taking that as gospel
		
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Whoa. I’m not going into the human rights issues now. 
I just was interested to know what you thought was so innovative and exciting about the LIV series.


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## IanM (May 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Whoa. I’m not going into the human rights issues now.
I just was interested to know what you thought was so innovative and exciting about the LIV series.
		
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I got bored reading half way through their website.

Something about a Draft, something about teams and 54 holes.  More cash for less Play?  I'm sure I'll watch on tv depending on who is playing.


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## Mel Smooth (May 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Whoa. I’m not going into the human rights issues now.
I just was interested to know what you thought was so innovative and exciting about the LIV series.
		
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Fair enough, quite a few posters commenting about "making mistakes" and "chopping up journalists". I  was referring to those kind of comments in my earlier reply about the msm narrative which you quoted. 

So to address your point. 54 holes, with shotgun starts, team camardarie - I suspect we will see a more personal side to the players, playing under less intensity to be the winner of tournament. 

The easy comparison is to compare it to playing in the monthly medal at your own club, to playing a texas scramble. 

One is serious, the other is serious but fun.


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## Swango1980 (May 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Fair enough, quite a few posters commenting about "making mistakes" and "chopping up journalists". I  was referring to those kind of comments in my earlier reply about the msm narrative which you quoted. 

So to address your point. 54 holes, with shotgun starts, team camardarie - I suspect we will see a more personal side to the players, playing under less intensity to be the winner of tournament. 

The easy comparison is to compare it to playing in the monthly medal at your own club, to playing a texas scramble. 

One is serious, the other is serious but fun.
		
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Might be jolly for them. But I wouldn't want to watch a jolly Texas Scramble or something similar. I quite like watching sport when it is competitive, and a lot riding on the players. Watch them under pressure.

Also, surely the prize money on offer puts more pressure on winning, not less? If players are doing it for the money, which presumably they are.


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## fundy (May 12, 2022)

yet still you cant actually articulate what they are actually bringing to golf that is different, innovative, exciting and various other adjectives youve used. everyone else is wrong and you are right in defending the liv series and its saudi owners

rather than pointing us all to look into it more why not try and share your wisdom?


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## IainP (May 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			It would be helpful if you could call out the key things that make the series really appealing to you? Would help me understand how this could be a good idea.

I’m struggling to see how it’s different enough from what exists already.
thanks.
		
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I was thinking about this the other day, I actually quite like how golf is currently  - but I acknowledge I'm not a youngster any more. I probably won't like what they are doing. 
One thing I did think was when I've been to tournaments in the past, as the last groups come in the crowds that were all over the course combine onto those last few holes making spectating tricky. The shotgun will potentially change this, no idea if for the better. It may also suit those who want to watch golf for a few hours, and then watch a band or something.
I guess I'm trying to keep an open-ish mind for a bit.


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## fundy (May 12, 2022)

IainP said:



			I was thinking about this the other day, I actually quite like how golf is currently  - but I acknowledge I'm not a youngster any more. I probably won't like what they are doing.
One thing I did think was when I've been to tournaments in the past, as the last groups come in the crowds that were all over the course combine onto those last few holes making spectating tricky. The shotgun will potentially change this, no idea if for the better. It may also suit those who want to watch golf for a few hours, and then watch a band or something.
I guess I'm trying to keep an open-ish mind for a bit.
		
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the thing is they arent actually doing anything that different are they?. all they have to do is look at club golf to see all the different comp options that they could pursue, mix the mens and womens games etc but thy are just recreating the same wheel. why not:

set up a whole course as a risk reward course, 6 par 5s, 6 short par 4s and 6 par 3s
play some mixed formats with 6 holes of 4somes, 6 of greensomes and 6 better ball 
play a mixed strokeplay/matchplay format where day 1 the top 16 qualify then they play matchplay for the rest
change the max number of clubs allowed to make it suit shot makers more


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2022)

fundy said:



			the thing is they arent actually doing anything that different are they?. all they have to do is look at club golf to see all the different comp options that they could pursue, mix the mens and womens games etc but thy are just recreating the same wheel. why not:

set up a whole course as a risk reward course, 6 par 5s, 6 short par 4s and 6 par 3s
play some mixed formats with 6 holes of 4somes, 6 of greensomes and 6 better ball
play a mixed strokeplay/matchplay format where day 1 the top 16 qualify then they play matchplay for the rest
change the max number of clubs allowed to make it suit shot makers more
		
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That might be fun for the participants, but not what I believe true followers are after. The current approach - finding the Golfer that needed th fewest shot - works fine as it is.
What clubs do is fine for _clubs_, not just about the golf. But tournament golf is about finding the best golfer for the event.
I'm happy if LIV provides other entertainment that attracts more spectators, but the main pupose of the tournament, for me, is to find 'the champion golfer'.


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## Crow (May 12, 2022)

If they rolled back the technology, used wooden woods, simple blades and a ball that behaved like a balata then I'd be very interested.  
See true shot shaping and ball control.

That would be bringing something different, rather than new, to the public and it would make a whole lot more great courses available that are now too short for modern professional golf.


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## AussieKB (May 13, 2022)

If the PGA will not release players for LIV then I suppose they now must not release players for the DP Tour, so no more PGA Players for the Scottish Irish Opens etc.

As for Rory and Justin Thomas to carry on is a joke, both play in Saudi UAE etc, and also they take appearance money as well, how does that help the average Pro trying to make a living.

I remember when the Press had a go at Nicklaus for receiving appearance money in Australia, he said he would just add it to the pot, then went out and won the tournament anyway.


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## JamesR (May 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If the PGA will not release players for LIV then I suppose they now must not release players for the DP Tour, so no more PGA Players for the Scottish Irish Opens etc.

As for Rory and Justin Thomas to carry on is a joke, both play in Saudi UAE etc, and also they take appearance money as well, how does that help the average Pro trying to make a living.

I remember when the Press had a go at Nicklaus for receiving appearance money in Australia, he said he would just add it to the pot, then went out and won the tournament anyway.
		
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The DP tour doesn’t play in North America, which the LIV tour will.

The Scottish Open is a joint sanctioned event with the PGA tour.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

You can tell how desperate the PGA and it's supporters are.

This is how low they will go.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524830280334266368


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That might be fun for the participants, but not what I believe true followers are after. The current approach - finding the Golfer that needed th fewest shot - works fine as it is.
What clubs do is fine for _clubs_, not just about the golf. But tournament golf is about finding the best golfer for the event.
I'm happy if LIV provides other entertainment that attracts more spectators, but the main pupose of the tournament, for me, is to find 'the champion golfer'.
		
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If they are really trying to grow the game then they should surely be looking at some new ideas. "True golf followers" already have the two main tours providing what they want. By simply doing the same or similar things to the other tours they are competing for the same audiences. Maybe implementing some of Fundy's ideas would attract new audiences and actually grow the game.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			If they are really trying to grow the game then they should surely be looking at some new ideas. "True golf followers" already have the two main tours providing what they want. By simply doing the same or similar things to the other tours they are competing for the same audiences. Maybe implementing some of Fundy's ideas would attract new audiences and actually grow the game.
		
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They do seem to be providing some different approaches wrt specttor/attendee participation. But keeping the basic format of the Golf tournament is fundamental imo. Otherwise, it's a circus.


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			They do seem to be providing some different approaches wrt specttor/attendee participation. But keeping the basic format of the Golf tournament is fundamental imo. Otherwise, it's a circus.
		
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I'm more thinking of different formats rather than putting windmills and clown heads on the green for them putt through. All they are doing is stroke play golf over 54 holes. I'm thinking proper golf formats not a circus but maybe a tournament of mixed foursomes, a four ball better ball pairs tournament, mixed stroke play etc. I can't see how churning out more men's stroke play golf is going to grow the game. It's simply providing more of what's already on offer and is very unlikely to attract new people to watch or attend.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			They do seem to be providing some different approaches wrt specttor/attendee participation. But keeping the basic format of the Golf tournament is fundamental imo. Otherwise, it's a circus.
		
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Maybe they are trying to tap in to people who suddenly found 20:20 interesting and find a 72 stroke play event dull? Perhaps the regular market is already maxed out and they want to tap into people who are not golf obsessives.


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## Swango1980 (May 13, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm more thinking of different formats rather than putting windmills and clown heads on the green for them putt through. All they are doing is stroke play golf over 54 holes. I'm thinking proper golf formats not a circus but maybe a tournament of mixed foursomes, a four ball better ball pairs tournament, mixed stroke play etc. I can't see how churning out more men's stroke play golf is going to grow the game. It's simply providing more of what's already on offer and is very unlikely to attract new people to watch or attend.
		
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Give pro's handicaps based on WHS, and play Stableford  .


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm more thinking of different formats rather than putting windmills and clown heads on the green for them putt through. All they are doing is stroke play golf over 54 holes. I'm thinking proper golf formats not a circus but maybe a tournament of mixed foursomes, a four ball better ball pairs tournament, mixed stroke play etc. I can't see how churning out more men's stroke play golf is going to grow the game. It's simply providing more of what's already on offer and is very unlikely to attract new people to watch or attend.
		
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I can't see them doing any of that - at least not for the main tournaments. Those formats are likely to deter 'new' spectators/TV audiences rather than attract them! The 'grow the game' phrase is just a faff expression anyway. They'll drop/redefine it soon enough.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maybe they are trying to tap in to people who suddenly found 20:20 interesting and find a 72 stroke play event dull? Perhaps the regular market is already maxed out and they want to tap into people who are not golf obsessives.
		
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No. They are trying to gain legitimacy by throwing money at sport. No different to any commercial (sponsorship) exercise. Though this time, for  new product/endevour.


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## Bdill93 (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No. They are trying to gain legitimacy by throwing money at sport. No different to any commercial (sponsorship) exercise. Though this time, for  new product/endevour.
		
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I agree to an extent.. but they are trying to do something different to just another 4 days of 18 holes stroke play.

I dont know viewing figures, Im no expert at all, but really who is watching the Thursday and Friday of your average PGA tour event? Me and my friends certainly dont.

I also like the concept of "team play" - how that comes into play, I dont know. But I think it would be a cool concept to have team Taylormade going down the stretch 3 points behind team Callaway and pulling back the win on the 18th - Gives players who are out of the individual competition something to play for thats still entertaining for fans.

Saudi/ Emirate money in sport is sadly going nowhere. To name a few examples:

Newcastle United
Man City
PSG
F1
Boxing
They're in Golf already too... The European tour/ DP World Tour

Not to say I agree with it, but theres no denying that theyre taking over slowly.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No. They are trying to gain legitimacy by throwing money at sport. No different to any commercial (sponsorship) exercise. Though this time, for  new product/endevour.
		
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I don't dispute that but I was replying to the point about having to keep the format the same. They don't, they want to attract new people or people who are half interested. I am not saying that is their sole purpose, it absolutely is not, but altering the format may well interest people in the same way 20:20 has or the mini race for qualifying in F1 (I don't watch F1 but I think that happens on occasions now)


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			...
I also like the concept of "team play" - how that comes into play, I dont know. But I think it would be a cool concept to have team Taylormade going down the stretch 3 points behind team Callaway and pulling back the win on the 18th - Gives players who are out of the individual competition something to play for thats still entertaining for fans.
...
		
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The only 'team' format I can imagine is one within the main singles comp. Where, say, 4 players make up a team and lowest total of the sum wins. Still basically strokeplay, but gives even those out of rankings (but still with a huge payday) something else to play for.
As I've posted before, the 'growing the game' is just faff to provide some legitimacy!


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

There’s plenty of info on how the team element will work on the LIV website

Essentially it’s 12 teams of 4 players picked from a draft. 2 best scores to count on days 1 and 2
3 scores to count on day three. 
So you’ll have 48 players out on the course all at the same time, which will culminate in them all finishing around the same time. its going to be totally different as a team with an easy finishing run of holes could move rapidly up the order - something you don’t get in conventional tournament format.
A bit like watching Steve Redgrave and chums in the Olympics, one team will edge in front, then drop back while others are having a good run.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			...
Saudi/ Emirate money in sport is sadly going nowhere. To name a few examples:
...
		
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It would be a mistake to bundle Saudi Arabia and UAE together for many/most areas.


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## Bdill93 (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			It would be a mistake to bundle Saudi Arabia and UAE together for many/most areas.
		
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LOL

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location...IRATES 2021,to health was partially fulfilled.


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## woofers (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A bit like watching Steve Redgrave and chums in the Olympics, one team will edge in front, then drop back while others are having a good run.
		
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Not quite, with Steve Redgrave and chums all the action is in front of you, you can actually see who’s in front and dropping back etc.
Whereas the shotgun start element of the golf event probably means the only way to ‘see’ who’s in front and dropping back will be via screens / leaderboards around the course, or an App?
My experience of shotgun starts is that you never know who’s won until all the cards are returned. I really can’t see the benefit of a shotgun start.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			Not quite, with Steve Redgrave and chums all the action is in front of you, you can actually see who’s in front and dropping back etc.
Whereas the shotgun start element of the golf event probably means the only way to ‘see’ who’s in front and dropping back will be via screens / leaderboards around the course, or an App?
My experience of shotgun starts is that you never know who’s won until all the cards are returned. I really can’t see the benefit of a shotgun start.
		
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You mean like the great big leaderboards that they’ve used for donkeys years at golf tourneys?I’m sure for those in attendance, will be kept updated of the scores, but for people watching via television etc, the shotgun start will add to the climax / interest imo.


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## woofers (May 13, 2022)

From the LIV Golf website:

_The team event is where the scoring gets even more exciting. Over the *first two rounds, the* *best two *stroke play scores will count for each team. For the *third and final round, the best three* scores will count, with the lowest overall team score after 54 holes being named the team winner. 

LIV Golf Invitational Series will feature 12 teams of four players each. Since each event will be made up of a different field, teams will be decided via a draft the week of each event. Each team will have a LIV appointed team captain who will select their 3 open team positions via a snake draft format. *The captain will* be one of the four starting players but will also have the responsibility to set the lineup each week, *choose the scores that will count* and act as an on- and off-course captain for the team. _

Well that’s cleared that up then !
Who’s providing the coverage for people watching via television, etc ?


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			LOL
		
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Re-read the post!
FWIW https://assets.publishing.service.g...trade-and-investment-factsheet-2022-05-04.pdf


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## Bdill93 (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Re-read the post!
FWIW https://assets.publishing.service.g...trade-and-investment-factsheet-2022-05-04.pdf

Click to expand...

Dont need to.

My point was that the issues people have with The Saudis are also present in UAE but no one seems to care about their poor record of human rights etc? 

Or it is one rule for one, and one rule for another?


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			...
My point was that the issues people have with The Saudis are also present in UAE but no one seems to care about their poor record of human rights etc?
...
		
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I don't disagree with that. The difference, in that area is that there's progress being made in UAE. Saudi hasn't even signed up to any HR protocols. I'm not stating they are good btw, just 'not as bad' and improving (unlike, seemingly, Saudi) - exactly what I infered in the OP and refered back to, so nothing more to add.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2022)

@woofers it is going to be shown live via YouTube. Taps into a younger market who watch a lot of content this way.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I don't disagree with that. The difference, in that area is that there's progress being made in UAE. Saudi hasn't even signed up to any HR protocols. I'm not stating they are good btw, just 'not as bad' and improving (unlike, seemingly, Saudi) - exactly what I infered in the OP and refered back to, so nothing more to add.
		
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The Americans executed a 66 year old blind fella yesterday. Now as a UK citizen, I think that is barbaric, just keep the fella locked up for the rest of his life. 

Funnily enough, you won't see much in the media about the human rights of american prisoners on death row.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 13, 2022)

Still can't see this working. Shotgun, team format or whatever it is still a sub-standard product in comparison to the PGA and I'd argue the DP as at least they have players working hard to improve and look for their opportunity on the PGA, in majors and WGC events


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## Barking_Mad (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nothing naive about it.

Can you explain to me how a new format of golf that will appeal to more people doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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Well, it's not on TV for start, so how would someone not knowing about golf choose to pay over the odds to attend a golf event they'd not usually give a second thought to?


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Well, it's not on TV for start, so how would someone not knowing about golf choose to pay over the odds to attend a golf event they'd not usually give a second thought to?
		
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According to Lord Tyron, it's on You Tube - which I'd imagine could be correct as that seems to be the way broadcasting is going - certainly a lot of the womens events are broadcast this way

Now if it is on You Tube, you will be able to watch it literally anywhere you want - for free. It's no wonder the PGA are throwing as much dirt as they possibly can.


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## woofers (May 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



@woofers it is going to be shown live via YouTube. Taps into a younger market who watch a lot of content this way.
		
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Who’s feeding it to YouTube?


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			Who’s feeding it to YouTube?
		
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The same people that do the PGA


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## IainP (May 13, 2022)

Renta-camera-person 😄

PS, don't search for  LIV You Tube 🤣😂


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2022)

woofers said:



			Who’s feeding it to YouTube?
		
Click to expand...

No idea. They just announced where it could be seen. Who does the feed is a level of detail that Joe Public doesn't usually ask about and isn't mentioned.

I guess the really interesting bit, unless you are in the broadcasting trade in which case your question is, is who will be doing commentary, co commentary etc. Could be some new voices, chance to make a career leap.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Renta-camera-person 😄

PS, don't search for  LIV You Tube 🤣😂
		
Click to expand...



https://www.golfchannel.com/news/liv-golf-outlines-plans-next-two-years-after-2-billion-investment#:~:text=LIV Golf announced Tuesday that,to another $2 billion investment.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No idea. They just announced where it could be seen. Who does the feed is a level of detail that Joe Public doesn't usually ask about and isn't mentioned.

I guess the really interesting bit, unless you are in the broadcasting trade in which case your question is, is who will be doing commentary, co commentary etc. Could be some new voices, chance to make a career leap.
		
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Faldo has been hooking up with Shiels, as has Sophie Walker. 2 potential candidates there.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
Can you explain to me how a *new format* of golf that *will appeal to more people* doesn’t potentially grow the game?
		
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How do you know that it *will* appeal to more people. Agreed, it might, but at the prices of tickets,  seriously doubt the 'will appeal to more people' statement. The basic product hasn't changed.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			How do you know that it *will* appeal to more people. Agreed, it might, but at the prices of tickets,  seriously doubt the 'will appeal to more people' statement. The basic product hasn't changed.
		
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It will be funky, faster, music playing, more banter with the players, more jeapordy (money if you like), and if it's going to be streamed to the world for free, millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally. 

You have to stop looking at it in from a traditional golfers point of view, and look at it with an open mind - and how the exisiting game can be amended to make it more interesting to a wider audience.


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## howbow88 (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lots of people on here falling for the msm narrative rather than doing a little research of their own I see.
		
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 Alright Matt Le Tissier


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## Lilyhawk (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It will be funky, faster, music playing, more banter with the players, more jeapordy (money if you like), and if it's going to be streamed to the world for free, millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally.

You have to stop looking at it in from a traditional golfers point of view, and look at it with an open mind - and how the exisiting game can be amended to make it more interesting to a wider audience.
		
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Lol. This is escalating in such way that I’m almost starting to suspect that LIV have hired regular golf peasants to sing their gospel. 🧐😁


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Lol. This is escalating in such way that I’m almost starting to suspect that LIV have hired regular golf peasants to sing their gospel. 🧐😁
		
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A guy asked me a question and I answered it pal.
There's no need to be rude.


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## Barking_Mad (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Americans executed a 66 year old blind fella yesterday. Now as a UK citizen, I think that is barbaric, just keep the fella locked up for the rest of his life.

Funnily enough, you won't see much in the media about the human rights of american prisoners on death row.
		
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There's plenty on a semi regular basis. It's grotesque, but a major difference is the US Government isn't funding the PGA Tour. The Saudi government is funding LIV.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It will be funky, faster, music playing, more banter with the players, more jeapordy (money if you like), and if it's going to be streamed to the world for free, millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally.

You have to stop looking at it in from a traditional golfers point of view, and look at it with an open mind - and how the exisiting game can be amended to make it more interesting to a wider audience.
		
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Yeah...Riiight!


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## Barking_Mad (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			According to Lord Tyron, it's on You Tube - which I'd imagine could be correct as that seems to be the way broadcasting is going - certainly a lot of the womens events are broadcast this way

Now if it is on You Tube, you will be able to watch it literally anywhere you want - for free. It's no wonder the PGA are throwing as much dirt as they possibly can.
		
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But why would 12 year old Tina from Leeds watch it over Minecraft videos or Fortnite? 'Growing the game' is just empty rhetoric.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			There's plenty on a semi regular basis. It's grotesque, but a major difference is the US Government isn't funding the PGA Tour. The Saudi government is funding LIV.
		
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True, the Saudis do fund the US Government though, and a lot of US based businesses - some of which will be connected back to the PGA tour in one way or another.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			But why would 12 year old Tina from Leeds watch it over Minecraft videos or Fortnite? 'Growing the game' is just empty rhetoric.
		
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Well I've just explained it to 12 year old Jamie from near Leeds who said he'd watch it. He also said conventional tournament golf was boring - which I tend to agree with.


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well I've just explained it to 12 year old Jamie from near Leeds who said he'd watch it. He also said conventional tournament golf was boring - which I tend to agree with.
		
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Are you being compensated for such promotion?


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## Golfnut1957 (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A guy asked me a question and I answered it pal.
There's no need to be rude.
		
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The guy had a point. You are making a lot of assumptions while not providing a lot of substance.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			The guy had a point. You are making a lot of assumptions while not providing a lot of substance.
		
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Such as?


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## Foxholer (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
You have to stop looking at it in from a traditional golfers point of view, and look at it with an open mind - and how the exisiting game can be amended to make it more interesting to a wider audience.
		
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Why? As a 'traditional golfer', though still with an open mind, I'm happy enough for here to be competition for existing tours primarily simply on the existing basis. The proposed new style simply seem to be unnecessary 'product differentiation' that could even turn it into a bit of a circus.
If it's not aimed to encompass, at least initially, traditional golfers, then it's starting with an initial audience of zero!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Faldo has been hooking up with Shiels, as has Sophie Walker. 2 potential candidates there.
		
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I can't believe Faldo would jeopardise his US gig by jumping ship. He has created a very nice role for himself in America, why risk it for something that may not work long term. The others.......Worth a punt


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## JamesR (May 13, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525093610038956033
Sums it up well for me


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## Golfnut1957 (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Such as?
		
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You are just trolling now. Even you can't really believe half of the shite you're coming out with.


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## Mel Smooth (May 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can't believe Faldo would jeopardise his US gig by jumping ship. He has created a very nice role for himself in America, why risk it for something that may not work long term. The others.......Worth a punt
		
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Yeah I agree, although he has links to performance 54  with his Faldo series.
He has spoken out against the LIV before though.


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## SteveJay (May 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally.
		
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I'd like to know the basis for that statement.....can't see that its going to be as big as you think (or want it to be based on your avid defence of LIV).


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			I'd like to know the basis for that statement.....can't see that its going to be as big as you think (or want it to be based on your avid defence of LIV).
		
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Well it might not, we don't know the full details of who is playing, maybe Phil Mickelson announcing he is not defending his PGA title has some relevance - but honestly, I have no idea.

But, there is now a huge interest in the series - generated ironically by the PGA and the people that support it. Coupled with the indication that it's going to be available on You Tube - it opens it up to millions of people across the world who wouldn't normaly watch a televised golf comp - which are all, in the main, on subscription TV.


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## Imurg (May 14, 2022)

Where do you get that millions are going to tune in to watch it from.?
Available to millions -yes....but why is Golf suddenly going to prise people away from their TV or their other YouTube subscriptions to watch 40/50 year old men take 5 hours to hit a ball around a field?
The RC and the Masters only got 120k views each day.
Admittedly they were available on TV but if 2 of the biggest events in golf can barely muster half a million views each over 3 or 4 days then what chance has a new venture got of pulling in significant numbers?


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Where do you get that millions are going to tune in to watch it from.?
Available to millions -yes....but why is Golf suddenly going to prise people away from their TV or their other YouTube subscriptions to watch 40/50 year old men take 5 hours to hit a ball around a field?
The RC and the Masters only got 120k views each day.
Admittedly they were available on TV but if 2 of the biggest events in golf can barely muster half a million views each over 3 or 4 days then what chance has a new venture got of pulling in significant numbers?
		
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CBS reported that 10 million people watched The Masters - it peaked at nearly 13 million. 

Rick Shiels video with Lee Westwood has already had almost a million views in just 4 days.

So I can easlily see there being an interest in the LIV, by millions of viewers.


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## MarkT (May 14, 2022)

Mickelson is gone isn't he. There's a very good podcast with Shipnuck with No Laying Up which paints a pretty balanced picture of Mickelson


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			CBS reported that 10 million people watched The Masters - it peaked at nearly 13 million.

Rick Shiels video with Lee Westwood has already had almost a million views in just 4 days.

So I can easlily see there being an interest in the LIV, by millions of viewers.
		
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I very much doubt there will be millions of people tuning in to watch the event at centurion- there are no big name golfers that bring the viewers in playing ,

you don’t get millions watching the main tour events apart from the Majors so why would millions watch the LIV event ?


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Where do you get that millions are going to tune in to watch it from.?
Available to millions -yes....but why is Golf suddenly going to prise people away from their TV or their other YouTube subscriptions to watch 40/50 year old men take 5 hours to hit a ball around a field?
*The RC and the Masters only got 120k views each day.*
Admittedly they were available on TV but if 2 of the biggest events in golf can barely muster half a million views each over 3 or 4 days then what chance has a new venture got of pulling in significant numbers?
		
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H'mm...A bit more than that!...https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/04/12/masters-tv-ratings-surge-sunday-augusta-national/#:~:text=According to CBS, the final,percent increase over last year.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally.
...
		
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SteveJay said:



			I'd like to know the basis for that statement.....can't see that its going to be as big as you think (or want it to be based on your avid defence of LIV).
		
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Mel Smooth said:



			...

Rick Shiels video with Lee Westwood has already had almost a million views in just 4 days.

So I can easlily see there being an interest in the LIV, by millions of viewers.
		
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Btw. Which video? Surel not this one (with 34k views on FB and 88k on his channel) ? 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1923737547796485



Or this one 



 with 43k views?


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## howbow88 (May 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt there will be millions of people tuning in to watch the event at centurion- there are no big name golfers that bring the viewers in playing ,

you don’t get millions watching the main tour events apart from the Majors so why would millions watch the LIV event ?
		
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Because Mel has said so.


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Why do people have such an issue with my views and seem intent to discredit them. 
I’m just offering opinions and fact based evidence chaps…..


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why do people have such an issue with my views and seem intent to discredit them.
I’m just offering opinions and fact based evidence chaps…..






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Sorry but what does that have to do with the Saudi League ?

Where is your “fact based evidence” ?


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Jesus wept😂


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Jesus wept😂
		
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Is that the answer ? 

What is your “fact based evidence” that millions are going to watch the LIV Tour event?


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the answer ?

What is your “fact based evidence” that millions are going to watch the LIV Tour event?
		
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That video has 953,000 views in 4 days buddy. It would seem Foxholer had attempted to dispute my view that ‘almost a million people’ had watched a Rick Shiels video featuring Westwood. I’m just demonstrating that there is a huge market for golf, via You Tube.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That video has 953,000 views in 4 days buddy. It would seem Foxholer had attempted to dispute my view that ‘almost a million people’ had watched a Rick Shiels video featuring Westwood. I’m just demonstrating that there is a huge market for golf, via You Tube.
		
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So because 900k watch some part of a 50 min video that means the same people will watch an event at Centurion? 

And how many of those 900k are clicks from adverts people get on their feeds ? 900k “views” will never be a true number of people who actually sit and watch it 

There has always been a huge market for golf on You Tube - the “golf vloggers” have been doing it for years now with various levels of actions from tips , club reviews , matches - even the ET use it for 15 club challenge etc

But that doesn’t equate to people willing to sit in front of you tube watch under Robert Garrigus or Kokrak hack round the Centurion


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what does that have to do with the Saudi League ?

Where is your “fact based evidence” ?
		
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I think it's a reply/evidence about his 'almost a million views of his video' - nothing more. The fact that he has over 2 million subscribers might have an influence on those numbers. LIV hasn't even got a channel, as far as I can see, yet. So plenty of inertia to overcome!


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That video has 953,000 views in 4 days buddy. It would seem Foxholer had attempted to dispute my view that ‘almost a million people’ had watched a Rick Shiels video featuring Westwood. I’m just demonstrating that there is a huge market for golf, via You Tube.
		
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I've never 'disputed' the numbers - simply asked where they came from/which vid. You didn't actually specify, and I couldn't find any *LIV related *one that had anywhere near that number. The LIV related ones show only about 5% of his YT Channel numbers!


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why do people have such an issue with my views and seem intent to discredit them.
I’m just offering opinions and fact based evidence chaps…..
		
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Perhaps because your views/opinions are unbelievable and your 'fact based evidence' is 99.9% irrelevant!


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## howbow88 (May 14, 2022)

If this was Twitter, then by now I would be pretty sure that Mel was a bot. But seeing as he has been on here for several years, that probably isn't the case. 

However, the 'fact based evidence' is surely signs of someone on a wind up. And if so, fair play - you hooked me in.


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:




Perhaps because your views/opinions are unbelievable and your 'fact based evidence' is 99.9% irrelevant!
		
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Mate, I think a Rick Shiels video with nigh on a million views, shows there are plenty of people wanting to watch a different kind of golf - you might think it's irrelevant, but I don't, and I suspect performance 54 are feeding all that data back to Sanabil, to show them that there is a market for there product.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Mate, I think a Rick Shiels video with nigh on a million views, shows there are plenty of people wanting to watch a different kind of golf - you might think it's irrelevant, but I don't, and I suspect performance 54 are feeding all that data back to Sanabil, to show them that there is a market for there product.
		
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Or that about half the number of his subscribers take a peek at some of his vids - the ones involving Tour players (or St Andrews) significantly more than others. Most of his vids have far smaller, though not insignificant, counts.
Again, I ask the question that you didn't reply to earlier....Are you being compensated for all this 'promotion'? You appear to have more 'insider knowledge' about the setup/relationships than would normally be expected.


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Or that about half the number of his subscribers take a peek at some of his vids - the ones involving Tour players (or St Andrews) significantly more than others. Most of his vids have far smaller, though not insignificant, counts.
Again, I ask the question that you didn't reply to earlier....Are you being compensated for all this 'promotion'? You appear to have more 'insider knowledge' about the setup/relationships than would normally be expected.
		
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It's not insider knowledge at all, it's all out there on the internet if anybody wants to spend a little time having a look around. - I find it quite intriguing tbh, hence the amount of time I've spent on this paricular thread. 


And my services to the Greg are all gratis ;-)


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## Swango1980 (May 14, 2022)

Wow, this has dragged on. Can we not just leave it that Mel thinks it will attract millions, and others do not. Then, once it finally happens, someone can come back and say "I told you so". 

Personally, I reckon it will be a damp squib. There'll be interest in the first one just because it is the first one and all the hype. However, with pretty much none of the best players in the world playing at it,  then it is going to take a hell of a lot more that a few changes to the format to keep people interested.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Wow, this has dragged on. Can we not just leave it that Mel thinks it will attract millions, and others do not. Then, once it finally happens, someone can come back and say "I told you so".

Personally, I reckon it will be a damp squib. There'll be interest in the first one just because it is the first one and all the hype. However, with pretty much none of the best players in the world playing at it,  then it is going to take a hell of a lot more that a few changes to the format to keep people interested.
		
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Well, with the next 3 scheduled for US sites and PGA Tour stating they won't give releases, I do wonder what will happen - even if the Centurion one is a success, which actually I hope it will be.


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## Mel Smooth (May 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Well, with the next 3 scheduled for US sites and PGA Tour stating they won't give releases, I do wonder what will happen - even if the Centurion one is a success, which actually I hope it will be.
		
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The players will play anyway, the PGA can't actually prevent them from doing so, but they can take retrospective action I beleive. If they do, then potentially players will be more relctant to commit to PGA contracts in the future.

Don't get me wrong, the younger lads who are serious Major contenders will stick with the PGA, but there will be plenty who will see the LIV tour as an easier way to earn more money - and when it comes down to basics, that will appeal to a lot of people.


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## BiMGuy (May 14, 2022)




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## JamesR (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The players will play anyway, *the* *PGA* *can't* *actually* *prevent* them from doing so, but they can take retrospective action I beleive. If they do, then potentially players will be more relctant to commit to PGA contracts in the future.

Don't get me wrong, the younger lads who are serious Major contenders will stick with the PGA, but there will be plenty who will see the LIV tour as an easier way to earn more money - and when it comes down to basics, that will appeal to a lot of people.
		
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I believe the fact they’ve signed contracts which prevent playing another tour in the USA means that the players can’t play the LIV tour.


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## Foxholer (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The players will play anyway, the PGA can't actually prevent them from doing so, but they can take retrospective action I beleive....
		
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Not 'retrospective' action, but consequential action!


JamesR said:



			I believe the fact they’ve signed contracts which prevent playing another tour in the USA means that the players can’t play the LIV tour.
		
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Players can request permission to play on a conflicting Tour - as has been done by a sizeable number of players to play LIV events. The PGA Tour doesn't need to acceed to that/those request(s) - and they have declined them. 
Unless injunctions are obtained, only 'consequential' action - such as sanction for breach of contract, which might result in ejection from The Tour - can be applied.

That (the first LIV event in US) will be the time when players will have to decide which tour they are going to commit to. The Centurion event is merely a warm-up!


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## sunshine (May 14, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I believe the fact they’ve signed contracts which prevent playing another tour in the USA means that the players can’t play the LIV tour.
		
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I guess the point is that the PGA Tour is not going to physically stop them playing. Garcia etc can turn up at Centurion, earn a shed load of Saudi money, then give the PGA Tour the finger when they get banned.


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## sunshine (May 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It will be funky, faster, music playing, more banter with the players, more jeapordy (money if you like), and if it's going to be streamed to the world for free, millions are going to sit down and watch it that wouldn't normally.

You have to stop looking at it in from a traditional golfers point of view, and look at it with an open mind - and how the exisiting game can be amended to make it more interesting to a wider audience.
		
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Have you been to many tour events? Most of the off course entertainment listed is all stuff I’ve typically seen at every event I’ve been to in the last 10 years. 

What I’m hearing is :
- 3 days instead of 4 (that won’t  change anything)
- Team event with a draft (artificially generated teams that nobody cares about adds nothing)
- Shotgun start obviously gets everyone on the course together, so there will be a lot of action simultaneously and it will be harder to follow live or on tv. On the plus side there is a lot of dead time for the last few holes in a traditional tournament so this could be a bonus. 
- stroke play format like any other tournament. 

Bottom line, I’m not really seeing anything that moves the dial, it’s just too similar to the week in week out golf already on show. 

In my opinion the golf sixes , also at Centurion, was far more innovative and also had teams representing their own country, which generated more passion for the players and spectators.


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## AussieKB (May 15, 2022)

Where is the Players Union in all this, surely they would be supporting their members earning more money ?
plus with members playing in a LIV event that opens up more spots on the PGA for their members, a win win situation.


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## sunshine (May 16, 2022)

I wonder if the LIV golfers will have to wear the Newcastle (away) kit to demonstrate their support for the sponsors


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## Lilyhawk (May 16, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I wonder if the LIV golfers will have to wear the Newcastle (away) kit to demonstrate their support for the sponsors
		
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As long as it comes in a hoodie version so it can grow the game then I’m all for it.


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## sunshine (May 16, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			As long as it comes in a hoodie version so it can grow the game then I’m all for it.
		
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More likely a burqa than a hoodie. 

You need to Google the Newcastle kit 😉


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## Lilyhawk (May 16, 2022)

sunshine said:



			More likely a burqa than a hoodie.

You need to Google the Newcastle kit 😉
		
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I’ve unfortunately already seen it. The classic white/green Newcastle combo.


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## Depreston (May 16, 2022)

Yeah the format seems poor


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## Backsticks (May 18, 2022)

I am wondering how it sees making itself relevant.

It wants established names, not newbies. So at the moment seems to be limited to attracting has beens, names of the past, and some middle ranking 50-150 OWGR level golfer. So a sort of Seniors tour,  and some younger non stars of the Garrigus type. The money is irrelevant to us the spectator, so us really only offering a sort of Masters tournament with all the good golfers who would make it a credible competition, not there.

Without a very significant cohort of world top 10 and top 50 joining it en masse, it is just a bit of demonstration or pro-am invitational golf.

Could they get Gary Player and Ben Crenshaw or someone as honorary starters maybe ?


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## MarkT (May 18, 2022)

Not the biggest news or surprise but Bland definitely playing at Centurion, ban or no ban. 

In other/even more news on the Saudi league Shipnuck said this: “A prominent Tour agent recently confided that he is hearing Norman is on the outs with the Saudis, which would be another wild development in this saga. If a leadership change is imminent with LIV Golf, that would be all the more reason for Mickelson to pass on the PGA Championship and take more time to assess a chaotic situation.” 

So maybe Phil will be the new face of it all despite the crazy moth....


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

It would not be a huge surprise if Norman was ousted. He has been very confrontational and the Saudi's may want a softer approach going forwards.


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## need_my_wedge (May 18, 2022)

Had an email from our club today, passing on an email from the Centurion asking if anyone wants to volunteer to help out at the LIV Golf event, and/or the ARAMCO TEAM Series the week after.


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## Swango1980 (May 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am wondering how it sees making itself relevant.

It wants established names, not newbies. So at the moment seems to be limited to attracting has beens, names of the past, and some middle ranking 50-150 OWGR level golfer. So a sort of Seniors tour,  and some younger non stars of the Garrigus type. The money is irrelevant to us the spectator, so us really only offering a sort of Masters tournament with all the good golfers who would make it a credible competition, not there.

Without a very significant cohort of world top 10 and top 50 joining it en masse, it is just a bit of demonstration or pro-am invitational golf.

Could they get Gary Player and Ben Crenshaw or someone as honorary starters maybe ?
		
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Although they want big names, maybe it really doesn't matter. If they have the money, they can just splash it into the pot. Whether it is has beens, journeymen, elite amateurs or even rubbish golfers like us, they win thousands, if not millions if they win the event. No different to something like "Who Want's to be a Millionaire" I suppose, in that winners get showered with money and it becomes a bit of a game, rather than purely elite competitive sport. After it has run a while, either it will die out due to boredom, or the money will run out. Or, better and better golfers might start to think "I fancy a piece of that". I don't know, if players like Hunter Mahan, Jeff Overton, Martin Kaymer (just thinking of has beens, not that they have actually confirmed) start winning millions, someone like Rickie Fowler or Danny Willet could be tempted, fancying their chances. And, if they start doing well, players like Matthew Fitzpatrick or Patrick Reed may fancy a go. And, then the likes of Bryson DeChambeau / Brooks Koepka could fancy a go, and so on.

In other words, I'd expect many of the top players to remain loyal with the PGA, at least for now. However, I can see a lot of players who would be considered middle of the pack to be tempted. If that drags them away from PGA, that could leave an uncompetitive gab between the best players on the PGA and the ones in behind them. As time goes on, more and more from the PGA would be tempted across, until not even the most loyal PGA servant could be persuaded to avoid the alternative.

It seems to have potential to shake up golf. If it does, clearly it would be all about the money, as there is no other reason why elite golfers would want to compete away from the PGA (i.e. missing out on prestigious golf events against their fellow best players, and missing out on good world ranking points).


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Although they want big names, maybe it really doesn't matter. If they have the money, they can just splash it into the pot. Whether it is has beens, journeymen, elite amateurs or even rubbish golfers like us, they win thousands, if not millions if they win the event. No different to something like "Who Want's to be a Millionaire" I suppose, in that winners get showered with money and it becomes a bit of a game, rather than purely elite competitive sport. After it has run a while, either it will die out due to boredom, or the money will run out. Or, better and better golfers might start to think "I fancy a piece of that". I don't know, if players like Hunter Mahan, Jeff Overton, Martin Kaymer (just thinking of has beens, not that they have actually confirmed) start winning millions, someone like Rickie Fowler or Danny Willet could be tempted, fancying their chances. And, if they start doing well, players like Matthew Fitzpatrick or Patrick Reed may fancy a go. And, then the likes of Bryson DeChambeau / Brooks Koepka could fancy a go, and so on.

In other words, I'd expect many of the top players to remain loyal with the PGA, at least for now. However, I can see a lot of players who would be considered middle of the pack to be tempted. If that drags them away from PGA, that could leave an uncompetitive gab between the best players on the PGA and the ones in behind them. As time goes on, more and more from the PGA would be tempted across, until not even the most loyal PGA servant could be persuaded to avoid the alternative.

It seems to have potential to shake up golf. If it does, clearly it would be all about the money, as there is no other reason why elite golfers would want to compete away from the PGA (i.e. missing out on prestigious golf events against their fellow best players, and missing out on good world ranking points).
		
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Is money not the driving force outside of the big majors anyway? Is it not more prestigious to win a national open on the European Tour than the John Deere Classic in wherever? Players go to the PGA tour now because of the riches involved, not because winning a tournament in Arkansas means anything.


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## fundy (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is money not the driving force outside of the big majors anyway? Is it not more prestigious to win a national open on the European Tour than the John Deere Classic in wherever? Players go to the PGA tour now because of the riches involved, not because winning a tournament in Arkansas means anything.
		
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Think theres a nuance to this theory imo. They go to the US tour also for the higher ranking points available which bolsters their world ranking and gets them entry to the biggest tournaments (Majors and WGCs), which in turn makes it even easier to earn ranking points and thus more money  . Much harder to get higher up the rankings without playing a lot on the US tour (currently 34th ranked Pieters the highest I think without PGA tour rights?)


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## AussieKB (May 18, 2022)

Most golfers are in it for the money, when you get to the elite status then it's about the majors, so let's just be honest about this.


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## Swango1980 (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is money not the driving force outside of the big majors anyway? Is it not more prestigious to win a national open on the European Tour than the John Deere Classic in wherever? Players go to the PGA tour now because of the riches involved, not because winning a tournament in Arkansas means anything.
		
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That is my point. As others pointed out, it is why most, if not all, of the best players in the world play on the PGA Tour. However, they won't immediately move across the the Saudi run events simply because of the money, because they risk out on their long term financial security (the PGA is already very lucrative, especially to the best and most consistent players), missing out on the prestigious events and, importantly for them, world ranking points.

However, if some of the lower ranked golfers start to trickle across, because it really does make financial sense for them, it would probably create some momentum in dragging more and more top golfers across. So, money will be the only real factor in attracting players to it. As more and more do, the PGA events will seem less and less prestigious due to weakened fields, whilst LIV becomes more and more prestigious due to stronger fields. This could be the excuse the best players make if they finally hop across, although ultimately the money is the driving force. And, it usually is in all walks of life.


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## AussieKB (May 18, 2022)

Money talks losers walk


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## IainP (May 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am wondering how it sees making itself relevant.

It wants established names, not newbies. So at the moment seems to be limited to attracting has beens, names of the past, and some middle ranking 50-150 OWGR level golfer. .....
		
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If accurate, seems there have been attempts 
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/alex-fitzpatrick-turns-down-dollar2m-to-join-saudi-league


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## IainP (May 18, 2022)

fundy said:



			Think theres a nuance to this theory imo. They go to the US tour also for the higher ranking points available which bolsters their world ranking and gets them entry to the biggest tournaments (Majors and WGCs), which in turn makes it even easier to earn ranking points and thus more money  . Much harder to get higher up the rankings without playing a lot on the US tour (currently 34th ranked Pieters the highest I think without PGA tour rights?)
		
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I'd posted previously that the owgr may hold an important key in recognising anything new.

The rankings points for a tournament are based on the field strength. So _if _higher ranking players did play on LIV that would earn a field strength, and potentially some PGA Tour events would reduce - hence this high stakes stand off 

‐‐-----------------
Strength of Field

The Strength of Field for each tours event is determined by using the World Rating and Home Tour Rating.

The World Rating is based on the number of Top-200 World Ranked players competing in the event and a value is allocated to the position within the Top 200.

The Home Tour Rating is based on the number of Top-30 Ranked players using each tours end of year final ranking with a value allocated to the position within the Top 30 Ranked players. Exception - Web.com Tour Home Tour Rating is based on the number of Top-30 Ranked players prior to the Hybrid Events.

The World and Home Rating* using the values in the charts below are added together to produce the Strength of Field rating. The number of points** allocated to an event is then determined by the "Points Breakdown" and which band the total Strength of Field rating falls into.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That is my point. As others pointed out, it is why most, if not all, of the best players in the world play on the PGA Tour. However, they won't immediately move across the the Saudi run events simply because of the money, because they risk out on their long term financial security (the PGA is already very lucrative, especially to the best and most consistent players), missing out on the prestigious events and, importantly for them, world ranking points.

However, if some of the lower ranked golfers start to trickle across, because it really does make financial sense for them, it would probably create some momentum in dragging more and more top golfers across. So, money will be the only real factor in attracting players to it. As more and more do, the PGA events will seem less and less prestigious due to weakened fields, whilst LIV becomes more and more prestigious due to stronger fields. This could be the excuse the best players make if they finally hop across, although ultimately the money is the driving force. And, it usually is in all walks of life.
		
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Imagine the top 10 left for this tour .. I'm sure the PGA would then change its tune 

As it stands they could play 3/4 majors if they left 

This is only what the PGA did to the European tour years ago with money only thing is the "dirty" money side .. which I'm sure the pgas is whiter than white...


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## IainP (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Imagine the top 10 left for this tour .. I'm sure the PGA would then change its tune

As it stands they could play 3/4 majors if they left

This is only what the PGA did to the European tour years ago with money only thing is the "dirty" money side .. which I'm sure the pgas is whiter than white...
		
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Why only 3?

My understanding is the PGA Tour came about as a breakaway from the PGA of America.


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## Backsticks (May 18, 2022)

Presumably they want people to watch it though, and that requires some sporting credibility. Prize money in itself, no matter how big, doesnt bring that.
Take Matt Fitzpatrick for example. Doing well, but hasnt really hit the big time. If he moved, and won a handful of tournaments beating Phil, Garrigus, Bland and the likes, he would be richer, but it would have no credibility. No one would care to watch him do it, and it would be in the same class as wins in 'sports' such as red bull gimmick sports or wrestling.
Golf already has an established second division in the DP tour. There is no opening in the market.


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## Backsticks (May 18, 2022)

And, I would have thought the ladies game would have been a much easier in to crack in golf. It has scope for more tournaments, money, and taking it beyond the USA more. But women wearing short skirts may not go down well with those behind the venture.


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## Dando (May 18, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			Had an email from our club today, passing on an email from the Centurion asking if anyone wants to volunteer to help out at the LIV Golf event, and/or the ARAMCO TEAM Series the week after.
		
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I’d rather volunteer at the aramco. 

I was actually thinking of popping over to watch it as the tickets are pretty cheap


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## Swango1980 (May 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Presumably they want people to watch it though, and that requires some sporting credibility. Prize money in itself, no matter how big, doesnt bring that.
Take Matt Fitzpatrick for example. Doing well, but hasnt really hit the big time. If he moved, and won a handful of tournaments beating Phil, Garrigus, Bland and the likes, he would be richer, but it would have no credibility. No one would care to watch him do it, and it would be in the same class as wins in 'sports' such as red bull gimmick sports or wrestling.
Golf already has an established second division in the DP tour. There is no opening in the market.
		
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They want people to watch it. However, if they are money rich, then having people watch it initially probably is not a major concern. They just need to get the ball rolling, and throw money at participants, even if no one watched it at all. Their big goal would be to slowly (well, the quicker the better) encourage better and better players to participate. They'll not necessarily participate because it is what all the fans are watching, rather they'll join to try and earn millions, and the fact that more and more of their peers are playing in it. If that happens, sooner or later more and more fans will watch it instead of the PGA. I rarely ever watch European Tour events anymore. However, if they ever get a big name like McIlroy, Bryson, Tiger, etc then I am much more likely to watch some of it. So, LIV will ultimately want at least 2 or 3 big time players to play in their events, and it will probably get fans watching.


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## IainP (May 18, 2022)

Quite interesting from the guy mentioned in post #1

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-championship-2022-ask-alan-shipnuck-phil-mickelson


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## Mel Smooth (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Imagine the top 10 left for this tour .. I'm sure the PGA would then change its tune

As it stands they could play 3/4 majors if they left

This is only what the PGA did to the European tour years ago with money only thing is the "dirty" money side .. which I'm sure the pgas is whiter than white...
		
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If the top players leave, there's no way on earth the PGA would shut them out - they can't afford to.  

And how is the winner at the Canadian Open ($85 a ticket btw), going to feel when they look at their cheque for 1.4 mill, and then see somebody who may be well below them in the WGR walking away with 3 times that amount from Centurion.

There's been a bit of a smear campaign going on as far as Norman and the LIV is concerned, but from what I can see, a lot of people are taking a realistic view to the source of the funding, and are looking forward to the 1st LIV event.


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## Depreston (May 19, 2022)

Brad Faxon going in two footed on Phil


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## Mel Smooth (May 19, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Brad Faxon going in two footed on Phil
		
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You wouldn't expect anything less - he's a mediocre golfer that has strung a good career out of golf, and part of that is commentating on the PGA Tour. He's now working for Sky, who appear to be nowhere near the LIV tour when it comes to broadcasting the action. 

It was never going to be an impartial view.

Let's remember, none of us really know Phil Mickelson, but if he has lost 40 million to a gambling habit (addiction), shoud people rally be sticking the boot into him?


This from Faxon just follows on from a lot of the other sensationalised opinion that we've geen hearing from the PGA Tour guys.


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## woofers (May 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth : You wouldn't expect anything less - *he's a mediocre golfer that has strung a good career out of golf,* and part of that is commentating on the PGA Tour. He's now working for Sky, who appear to be nowhere near the LIV tour when it comes to broadcasting the action.
As are the majority of the golfers on any tour, and most likely those who will play in the LIV events.
It was never going to be an impartial view.
Well, generally speaking when someone gives an opinion on something, it’s going to be their opinion and therefore unlikely to be impartial - otherwise it’s going to be a bland non statement. We can infer that your constant defensive of the LIV events isn’t impartial.
Let's remember, none of us really know Phil Mickelson, but if he has lost 40 million to a gambling habit (addiction), shoud people rally be sticking the boot into him?
Really, seriously ? Should we be feeling sorry for him then ? His choice to piss away 40 million. Addictions can be treated but may be he chose not to ?
This from Faxon just follows on from a lot of the other sensationalised opinion that we've geen hearing from the PGA Tour guys.PGA tour guys can have their opinions, just like the LIV guys can, if and when we know who they are and aren’t clamped by NDA’s.


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## Mel Smooth (May 19, 2022)

woofers said:



			Mel Smooth : You wouldn't expect anything less - *he's a mediocre golfer that has strung a good career out of golf,* and part of that is commentating on the PGA Tour. He's now working for Sky, who appear to be nowhere near the LIV tour when it comes to broadcasting the action.
As are the majority of the golfers on any tour, and most likely those who will play in the LIV events.
It was never going to be an impartial view.
Well, generally speaking when someone gives an opinion on something, it’s going to be their opinion and therefore unlikely to be impartial - otherwise it’s going to be a bland non statement. We can infer that your constant defensive of the LIV events isn’t impartial.
Let's remember, none of us really know Phil Mickelson, but if he has lost 40 million to a gambling habit (addiction), shoud people rally be sticking the boot into him?
Really, seriously ? Should we be feeling sorry for him then ? His choice to piss away 40 million. Addictions can be treated but may be he chose not to ?
This from Faxon just follows on from a lot of the other sensationalised opinion that we've geen hearing from the PGA Tour guys.PGA tour guys can have their opinions, just like the LIV guys can, if and when we know who they are and aren’t clamped by NDA’s.

Click to expand...

It's a forum mate. It's all about opinions - I was just pointing out why he was sticking the boot in. Compare that to some of the players, who have been much more balanced and respectful towards Phil with their comments - they know their paths will cross again somewhere in the future, maybe on the PGA Tour, maybe elsewhere - we will see.


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## Imurg (May 29, 2022)

Well....less than 2 weeks and it'll be all over at Centurion.....
Any idea who's playing yet?
It all seems to have gone a bit quiet


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## Dando (May 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well....less than 2 weeks and it'll be all over at Centurion.....
Any idea who's playing yet?
It all seems to have gone a bit quiet

Click to expand...

The rate they’re going @PhilTheFragger will be getting a phone call


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## Oddsocks (May 29, 2022)

Dando said:



			The rate they’re going @PhilTheFragger will be getting a phone call
		
Click to expand...

His 13w is non conforming so he’ll need an equipment sponsor first.


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## Imurg (May 29, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			His 13w is non conforming so he’ll need an equipment sponsor first.
		
Click to expand...

Not equipment but there's an Indian FinTech start-up called Slice....I wonder if they'd be interested


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## PhilTheFragger (May 29, 2022)

Oi
Leave the Ladywood out of this😂😂


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## Depreston (May 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well....less than 2 weeks and it'll be all over at Centurion.....
Any idea who's playing yet?
It all seems to have gone a bit quiet

Click to expand...

No field 
No tv deal

All a bit of a farce tbh


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## Lilyhawk (May 30, 2022)

Depreston said:



			No field
No tv deal

All a bit of a farce tbh
		
Click to expand...

You’re just narrow minded.

LIV is the future! All hail the great leader Norman!


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## Mel Smooth (May 30, 2022)

Pretty sure it's already been stated on here that it will be broadcast on YouTube, and that the same company that televise the PGA Tour events, are televising the LIV series. ;-)


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## IainP (May 30, 2022)

Journos loving this...

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/05/29/eamon-lynch-pga-tour-nanny-approach-players-liv-golf-saudi/


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## AussieKB (May 30, 2022)

Not just Journos....lawyers can see a huge pay day coming.


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## abjectplop (May 30, 2022)

Just had an email about tickets for Centurion event....first 100 tickets free using code *hdidlondon22ga25

https://tickets.livgolf.com/2022-lo...25_london22_p54&discount_code=tm2london22ga25*


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## doublebogey7 (May 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'd posted previously that the owgr may hold an important key in recognising anything new.

The rankings points for a tournament are based on the field strength. So _if _higher ranking players did play on LIV that would earn a field strength, and potentially some PGA Tour events would reduce - hence this high stakes stand off

‐‐-----------------
Strength of Field

The Strength of Field for each tours event is determined by using the World Rating and Home Tour Rating.

The World Rating is based on the number of Top-200 World Ranked players competing in the event and a value is allocated to the position within the Top 200.

The Home Tour Rating is based on the number of Top-30 Ranked players using each tours end of year final ranking with a value allocated to the position within the Top 30 Ranked players. Exception - Web.com Tour Home Tour Rating is based on the number of Top-30 Ranked players prior to the Hybrid Events.

The World and Home Rating* using the values in the charts below are added together to produce the Strength of Field rating. The number of points** allocated to an event is then determined by the "Points Breakdown" and which band the total Strength of Field rating falls into.
		
Click to expand...

Except the LIV is not on the eligible tour list for WGR,  so ranking points will not be available no matter who turns up.


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## Mel Smooth (May 30, 2022)

abjectplop said:



			Just had an email about tickets for Centurion event....first 100 tickets free using code *hdidlondon22ga25*

*https://tickets.livgolf.com/2022-lo...25_london22_p54&discount_code=tm2london22ga25*

Click to expand...

Some more detail about the discounts available to certain professions and age groups as well in that link. 👍


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## AussieKB (May 30, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Except the LIV is not on the eligible tour list for WGR,  so ranking points will not be avilable no matter who turns up.
		
Click to expand...

So like Wimbledon then....


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## Bobthesock (May 30, 2022)

abjectplop said:



			Just had an email about tickets for Centurion event....first 100 tickets free using code *hdidlondon22ga25*

*https://tickets.livgolf.com/2022-lo...25_london22_p54&discount_code=tm2london22ga25*

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing 👍. Let's you get a 3 day one as well. If it even goes ahead that is


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## IainP (May 30, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Except the LIV is not on the eligible tour list for WGR,  so ranking points will not be available no matter who turns up.
		
Click to expand...

Hence the 1st paragraph. 
I recall reports that the application had gone in, but hadn't seen it had been rejected.  Do you have a link?


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## Mel Smooth (May 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Hence the 1st paragraph.
I recall reports that the application had gone in, but hadn't seen it had been rejected.  Do you have a link?
		
Click to expand...

I think they've accepted they won't get it through in time for Centurion, but are hopeful for the next round in Portland. That's all I'm finding on Google.


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## doublebogey7 (May 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Hence the 1st paragraph. 
I recall reports that the application had gone in, but hadn't seen it had been rejected.  Do you have a link?
		
Click to expand...

I don't, but given the main tours are the main signatories  to the WGR I don't see them getting on the list for the foreseeable.


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## Barking_Mad (May 31, 2022)

If it's reasonably successful then it will divide the game and water down the attraction, with top players split between two tours. That's not good for golf as you want the best players in the same event. I suspect the European Tour might be more worried about players leaving but I've not seen much mention of any leaving?


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## BrianM (Jun 1, 2022)

https://www.livgolf.com/teams-players

Not to shabby a line up with DJ being the headline act.....


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2022)

Where's Phil..?


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## BrianM (Jun 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Where's Phil..?
		
Click to expand...

There is still 6 players I think to be announced and Phil will be one of them....


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

BrianM said:



https://www.livgolf.com/teams-players

Not to shabby a line up with DJ being the headline act.....
		
Click to expand...

For the 1st event, that's a decent crop of players. 

Give it a few events and plenty more will get onboard.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			If it's reasonably successful then it will divide the game and water down the attraction, with top players split between two tours. That's not good for golf as you want the best players in the same event. I suspect the European Tour might be more worried about players leaving but I've not seen much mention of any leaving?
		
Click to expand...

If the tours behave and let players come and go it won't really because they aren't suppose to clash with wgcs or majors so the tours would still get their players


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

LIV Golf Invitational Series will feature 12 teams of 4 players each. Each event will be made up of a different field, so teams will be decided via a draft. Each team will have a team captain who will select the 3 open positions via a snake draft format.

that format will change over time surely ? It’s nonsense


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			LIV Golf Invitational Series will feature 12 teams of 4 players each. Each event will be made up of a different field, so teams will be decided via a draft. Each team will have a team captain who will select the 3 open positions via a snake draft format.

that format will change over time surely ? It’s nonsense
		
Click to expand...

Why?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			LIV Golf Invitational Series will feature 12 teams of 4 players each. Each event will be made up of a different field, so teams will be decided via a draft. Each team will have a team captain who will select the 3 open positions via a snake draft format.

that format will change over time surely ? It’s nonsense
		
Click to expand...

Why is it? This is the entire point golf needs more different events 

If the tour fails but the PGA takes on a few diff events a year like these formats then it's a successful idea


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## OntheteeGavin (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it? This is the entire point golf needs more different events

If the tour fails but the PGA takes on a few diff events a year like these formats then it's a successful idea
		
Click to expand...

P


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## OntheteeGavin (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If the tours behave and let players come and go it won't really because they aren't suppose to clash with wgcs or majors so the tours would still get their players
		
Click to expand...

Look at the state of boxing, with so many belts. You want golf like that?


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it? This is the entire point golf needs more different events

If the tour fails but the PGA takes on a few diff events a year like these formats then it's a successful idea
		
Click to expand...

Which would be fine if LIV had went all in on the team aspect

They don’t seem to have though it’s a singles strokeplay event masquerading as team golf


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm amazed by DJ jumping ship. That is a huge coup for the tour. I know his form has dropped recently but even so, that will surely shock the PGA.


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## AussieKB (Jun 1, 2022)

Can see the PGA banning him even though they say he is an individual contractor, let the lawsuits begin, should be fun.,


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## fenwayrich (Jun 1, 2022)

The website says 'Teams to root for. Colors to wear. Cheers and jeers welcome'.

It's clear who they are trying to attract. Not people who love the game because it promotes old fashioned values of integrity, courtesy and respect.

I'm surprised Sam Horsfield is playing. He's got the game to be a future major winner.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Which would be fine if LIV had went all in on the team aspect

They don’t seem to have though it’s a singles strokeplay event masquerading as team golf
		
Click to expand...

The teams isn't the entire change of format .. it's more that 72 holes of golf isn't the be all and end all

3 day tournament, shot gun start so get to see more action at once 

Easier to watch from the off and be over in 5-6 hours a day .. 

A nice break from the norm.


OntheteeGavin said:



			Look at the state of boxing, with so many belts. You want golf like that?
		
Click to expand...

The majors will still exist. The world number 1 will still exist.. there is no extra list .. 

This isn't at all like boxing.

If players play the Liv tour then back to PGA or dp world tour for the next week like it should work there won't be an issue ..but the PGA don't like not getting to call the shots.



AussieKB said:



			Can see the PGA banning him even though they say he is an individual contractor, let the lawsuits begin, should be fun.,
		
Click to expand...

Don't think they can ban him from majors bar the PGA


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

No Phil Mickleson?


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## MarkT (Jun 1, 2022)

Other than Kaymer not that big a fan of any of these, surprised by likes of Canter, Wiesberger and definitely Horsfield and delighted likes of Fleetwood and Lowry not on the list (for now)

You’d imagine the last six will be pretty big names

The current field list in full (42 of 48 players announced):
Oliver Bekker, South Africa
Richard Bland, England
Laurie Canter, England
Ratchanon Chantananuwat (amateur), Thailand
Hennie Du Plessis, South Africa
Oliver Fisher, England
Sergio Garcia, Spain
Talor Gooch, USA
Branden Grace, South Africa
Justin Harding, South Africa
Sam Horsfield, England
Dustin Johnson, USA
Matt Jones, Australia
Sadom Kaewkanjana, Thailand
Martin Kaymer, Germany
Phachara Khongwatmai, Thailand
Sihwan Kim, USA
Ryosuke Kinoshita, Japan
Chase Koepka, USA
Jinichiro Kozuma, Japan
Pablo Larrazabal, Spain
Graeme McDowell, Northern Ireland
Jediah Morgan, Australia
Kevin Na, USA
Shaun Norris, South Africa
Andy Ogletree, USA
Louis Oosthuizen, South Africa
Wade Ormsby, Australia
Adrian Otaegui, Spain
Turk Pettit, USA
James Piot (amateur), USA
Ian Poulter, England
David Puig (amateur), Spain
JC Ritchie, South Africa
Charl Schwartzel, South Africa
Hudson Swafford, USA
Hideto Tanihara, Japan
Peter Uihlein, USA
Scott Vincent, Zimbabwe
Lee Westwood, England
Bernd Wiesberger, Austria
Blake Windred, Australia


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 1, 2022)

Almost choked with laughter reading this gold nugget from Norman. Got to love a bit of proper PR-language in the morning. 



Cash. You dangled cash in front of them. "Empathic belief in our model".


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## fenwayrich (Jun 1, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Other than Kaymer not that big a fan of any of these, surprised by likes of Canter, Wiesberger and definitely Horsfield and delighted likes of Fleetwood and Lowry not on the list (for now)

You’d imagine the last six will be pretty big names

The current field list in full (42 of 48 players announced):
Oliver Bekker, South Africa
Richard Bland, England
Laurie Canter, England
Ratchanon Chantananuwat (amateur), Thailand
Hennie Du Plessis, South Africa
Oliver Fisher, England
Sergio Garcia, Spain
Talor Gooch, USA
Branden Grace, South Africa
Justin Harding, South Africa
Sam Horsfield, England
Dustin Johnson, USA
Matt Jones, Australia
Sadom Kaewkanjana, Thailand
Martin Kaymer, Germany
Phachara Khongwatmai, Thailand
Sihwan Kim, USA
Ryosuke Kinoshita, Japan
Chase Koepka, USA
Jinichiro Kozuma, Japan
Pablo Larrazabal, Spain
Graeme McDowell, Northern Ireland
Jediah Morgan, Australia
Kevin Na, USA
Shaun Norris, South Africa
Andy Ogletree, USA
Louis Oosthuizen, South Africa
Wade Ormsby, Australia
Adrian Otaegui, Spain
Turk Pettit, USA
James Piot (amateur), USA
Ian Poulter, England
David Puig (amateur), Spain
JC Ritchie, South Africa
Charl Schwartzel, South Africa
Hudson Swafford, USA
Hideto Tanihara, Japan
Peter Uihlein, USA
Scott Vincent, Zimbabwe
Lee Westwood, England
Bernd Wiesberger, Austria
Blake Windred, Australia
		
Click to expand...

Five of the last six will be taken from the Asian Tour money list. Presumably spot number 6 is reserved for Phil Mickelson if he wants it.


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## AussieKB (Jun 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Almost choked with laughter reading this gold nugget from Norman. Got to love a bit of proper PR-language in the morning.
View attachment 42864


Cash. You dangled cash in front of them. "Empathic belief in our model". 

Click to expand...

At the end of the day....cash talks.


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## AussieKB (Jun 1, 2022)

From the PGA website.

*How are players schedules determined? *
Each PGA TOUR member is an independent contractor and therefore sets his own individual schedule of events. 

So how can they ban players ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2022)

I keep thinking of Kerry Packer in cricket.
Not sure how that played out long term but it certainly changed cricket.


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			From the PGA website.

*How are players schedules determined? *
Each PGA TOUR member is an independent contractor and therefore sets his own individual schedule of events.

So how can they ban players ?
		
Click to expand...

Assuming cause they have a contract with the PGA Tour, which prohibits certain things, under certain circumstances. One of those being playing on another tour, as an example. But I'm sure we'll be seeing a legal battle commencing very soon. The linked article should be of help. 

https://golfdigestme.com/can-player...e-pga-tour-for-joining-the-super-golf-league/


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Assuming cause they have a contract with the PGA Tour, which prohibits certain things, under certain circumstances. One of those being playing on another tour, as an example. But I'm sure we'll be seeing a legal battle commencing very soon. The linked article should be of help.

https://golfdigestme.com/can-player...e-pga-tour-for-joining-the-super-golf-league/

Click to expand...

Yet they can play the DP world tour at same time


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet they can play the DP world tour at same time
		
Click to expand...

If you want to lecture the PGA Tour on their rules I suggest you write a letter to Mr J Monahan on what you find weird about them.


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## Jordanti9 (Jun 1, 2022)

No interest in the events at all, mainly because of the names in it.


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## AussieKB (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm interested in watching golf period, am looking forward to them playing the Blue Monster at Doral with all the new changes, has been ages since the pro's have played there, due to political crap, hopefully they play at Cypress Point as well.


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## Ethan (Jun 1, 2022)

BrianM said:



			There is still 6 players I think to be announced and Phil will be one of them....
		
Click to expand...

I think Phil wanted to see the supporting cast announced first, then with a triumphant roll of the drums, the star player.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think Phil wanted to see the supporting cast announced first, then with a triumphant roll of the drums, the star player.
		
Click to expand...

He wouldn't be now DJ is there would he? A younger player who still is very much challenging .. I know Phil won a major recently but DJ has his career ahead of him not behind (well did before this gamble)


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## louise_a (Jun 1, 2022)

I do not watch golf , but I do look at the scores, I have only heard of 16 of those players and most of those have been going quite a long time, so isit just mainly players coming to the end of their careers looking for a last big payday


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## woofers (Jun 1, 2022)

Be interesting to see if play really is quicker, given that one of the reasons for “deliberateness“ on the tours is the fact that each shot potentially “costs“ so much. With even more money at stake, surely more care will be taken ?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I do not watch golf , but I do look at the scores, I have only heard of 16 of those players and most of those have been going quite a long time, so isit just mainly players coming to the end of their careers looking for a last big payday
		
Click to expand...

The fact you do not watch golf, but just look at the scores, probably means that the players you recognise have been about a long time, so that may give you a slightly misleading impression. However, given the controversy and possible sanctions on players, it was generally always going to attract either big name players approaching the twilight of their career (thus not much to lose), or younger players who are likely to struggle, or have been struggling to establish themselves on the PGA or DP Tours (i.e. worth the risk). In fact, if some of these unestablished players manage to do well early on in this new tour, it could put them on the map and actually help their career on the other main tours (as I think it could backfire on the PGA Tour if they just ban anyone playing in this rival tour. After all, I can imagine it being difficult to tell Dustin Johnson to stay away from the PGA Tour, as he is still a fan favourite to many fans)


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## AliMc (Jun 1, 2022)

louise_a said:



			I do not watch golf , but I do look at the scores, I have only heard of 16 of those players and most of those have been going quite a long time, so isit just mainly players coming to the end of their careers looking for a last big payday
		
Click to expand...

Same for me Louise, i've little interest in watching others playing golf as I find it incredibly boring, wouldn't go to the end of my garden to watch Garcia, Westwood, Poulter etc tbh but appreciate that others will go and watch them


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I keep thinking of Kerry Packer in cricket.
Not sure how that played out long term but it certainly changed cricket.
		
Click to expand...

It worked out very well for Kerry Packer, he picked up the broadcasting rights for cricket in Australia and revolutionised how tv broadcast the game, for the better. Players got paid much more, team branding came in plus other changes. Greg Norman can only dream that he impacts golf as Packer did.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			From the PGA website.

*How are players schedules determined? *
Each PGA TOUR member is an independent contractor and therefore sets his own individual schedule of events.

So how can they ban players ?
		
Click to expand...

I have a number of independent contractors working for me. In their contract it states that whilst working for our company they can’t work for a competitor at the same time. If we found out they had been they would be gone immediately.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

I wonder if we'll see night time golf on the LIV Tour. Perhaps captivate prime time evening TV viewing in the States with floodlit courses and maybe all the glamour that goes with it. Fireworks when the winning put goes in, or the player lifts the trophy.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Be interesting to see if play really is quicker, given that one of the reasons for “deliberateness“ on the tours is the fact that each shot potentially “costs“ so much. With even more money at stake, surely more care will be taken ?
		
Click to expand...

I think the idea is the event is quicker so it’s more spectator friendly, 3 days, simultaneously playing from a shotgun start.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Which would be fine if LIV had went all in on the team aspect

They don’t seem to have though it’s a singles strokeplay event masquerading as team golf
		
Click to expand...

They’ve covered both aspects, the team format will be a great addition.


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## Beezerk (Jun 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I'm interested in watching golf period, am looking forward to them playing the Blue Monster at Doral with all the new changes, has been ages since the pro's have played there, due to political crap, hopefully they play at Cypress Point as well.
		
Click to expand...

Imagine if they play Turnberry 😂


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’ve covered both aspects, the team format will be a great addition.
		
Click to expand...

Why? The teams are meaningless. Artificial. With no raison d'etre, affiliation to any region, country, city, history, club. Its one of the more ludicrous 'innovations' in this whole venture and shows how out of touch those behind it are.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Why? The teams are meaningless. Artificial. With no raison d'etre, affiliation to any region, country, city, history, club. Its one of the more ludicrous 'innovations' in this whole venture and shows how out of touch those behind it are.
		
Click to expand...

People will build an affiliation to a team, might be based on the players, the team colours, the manner in which they play or even just the name. It also adds another aspect to the betting markets which are massive globally. 
I think the ones that are out of touch are those that can’t see there’s a gap in the golf market which the LIV series is attempting to fill.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			People will build an affiliation to a team, might be based on the players, the team colours, the manner in which they play or even just the name. It also adds another aspect to the betting markets which are massive globally.
I think the ones that are out of touch are those that can’t see there’s a gap in the golf market which the LIV series is attempting to fill.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously? Are the teams not random every time an event is played? If so, how does anyone build an affiliation with a team? You really think fans will build an affiliation because, for example, they like the colour blue. Or they love the name Big Bertha Bashers?

Is your real name Greg Norman?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			People will build an affiliation to a team, might be based on the players, the team colours, the manner in which they play or even just the name. It also adds another aspect to the betting markets which are massive globally.
I think the ones that are out of touch are those that can’t see there’s a gap in the golf market which the LIV series is attempting to fill.
		
Click to expand...

You joking ? 

Build an “affiliation” to a made up team that won’t be the same again 🤷‍♂️

What “gap” do you think needs filling ?


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## woofers (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think the idea is the event is quicker so it’s more spectator friendly, 3 days, simultaneously playing from a shotgun start.
		
Click to expand...

From the website…..
“The first seven regular season events will consist of three 18-hole rounds for a total of 54 holes, with no cut, and _shotgun starts to ensure a faster and more exciting pace of play._”

I‘m not sure that with an individual comp and team comp where the number of counting scores changes as the event progresses, running concurrently, and the amount of money on offer, will really generate an “exciting pace of play”, however I may be wrong.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You joking ?

Build an “affiliation” to a made up team that won’t be the same again 🤷‍♂️

What “gap” do you think needs filling ?
		
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The gap is for people who find 72 holes of individual strokeplay repetitive and dull. Whether it works or not is another matter but if it offers something different then it may draw some new people in. I don't expect non golfers to watch but golfers who find week after week of standard strokeplay dull may well tune in.


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

Be like the constructors championship in F1 

Who really cares ?

can just see it DJ needs a 3 for his team bonesaw united to secure the win … or a 4 to secure the singles event and pick up an extra *insert obscene amount* will he take on that tucked flag to get the win … OH THE DRAMA no he’s hit it middle away from the trouble he will have 40 foot for birdie 

But shotgun starts


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The gap is for people who find 72 holes of individual strokeplay repetitive and dull. Whether it works or not is another matter but if it offers something different then it may draw some new people in. I don't expect non golfers to watch but golfers who find week after week of standard strokeplay dull may well tune in.
		
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It’s going to be 54 holes of strokeplay with the players not giving a monkeys about the team


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The gap is for people who find 72 holes of individual strokeplay repetitive and dull. Whether it works or not is another matter but if it offers something different then it may draw some new people in. I don't expect non golfers to watch but golfers who find week after week of standard strokeplay dull may well tune in.
		
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The same gap they tried to fill with the “6’s” and ended up being a damp squid because the majority actually prefer to watch the individual format ? 

Or the mixed format which did the same 

Is golf on a decline somewhere that means we need to find an alternative format ? Are we really struggling at the moment ? 

When the British Masters comes around do they struggle to sell the tickets - same with the PGA , The Open ? 

There always seems to be their small minority that have this narrative that we must find something new and different - is it because cricket did something new ? 

I could sort of understand if the sport was struggling badly and people just weren’t watching but that’s not the case

People imo want to watch good golf from the top players regardless of the format 

The Saudi thing isn’t about “growing the game” or “bringing excitement” into the sport - it’s just rich oil barons sport washing and wanting to use their money to start ti dominate sport - that’s all it is

The minute the PGA and ET ban players from entering their tournaments will the best thing for the sport - spreading it out amongst multiple tours fighting for the riches  is not good for the sport or the spectators


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			It’s going to be 54 holes of strokeplay *with the players not giving a monkeys about the team*

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I get that but as Mel pointed out it does draw in the betting markets, I don't bet but the market is huge, and viewers may buy into it. 

As a shotgun start it is also a days golf compressed into 4-5 hours rather than a whole day and there will be no dead time whilst the last few groups take 10 minutes to decide a shot as the director can move to any hole and find a group playing. On Sunday in the PGA Scheffler played one hole and one shot in a spell of 45 minutes. I don't think it was his fault but how can that be good tv?

Let's face it, if they did more of the same then there is nothing to differentiate it from the US or European tours. It might be gimmicky but then perhaps it needs a bit of that to make ripples. If we go back to the Packer analogy, cricketers playing in pyjama's, what is that about? Roll on all these years..........


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## fundy (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but as Mel pointed out it does draw in the betting markets, I don't bet but the market is huge, and viewers may buy into it.

As a shotgun start it is also a days golf compressed into 4-5 hours rather than a whole day and there will be no dead time whilst the last few groups take 10 minutes to decide a shot as the director can move to any hole and find a group playing. On Sunday in the PGA Scheffler played one hole and one shot in a spell of 45 minutes. I don't think it was his fault but how can that be good tv?

Let's face it, if they did more of the same then there is nothing to differentiate it from the US or European tours. It might be gimmicky but then perhaps it needs a bit of that to make ripples. If we go back to the Packer analogy, cricketers playing in pyjama's, what is that about? Roll on all these years..........
		
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Id be pretty certain that there will be next to no volume bet on the team events, it will be bet on the individual winner, because thats what the bookies know, thats what the punters know and thats what will be offered with any liquidity on the betting sites

Hard to bet on the teams when no one knows whos in which teams until close to the off too

Over time this may change slightly but certainly wont happen overnight, the betting will follow not lead on the team event being a success


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but as Mel pointed out it does draw in the betting markets, I don't bet but the market is huge, and viewers may buy into it.

As a shotgun start it is also a days golf compressed into 4-5 hours rather than a whole day and there will be no dead time whilst the last few groups take 10 minutes to decide a shot as the director can move to any hole and find a group playing. On Sunday in the PGA Scheffler played one hole and one shot in a spell of 45 minutes. I don't think it was his fault but how can that be good tv?

Let's face it, if they did more of the same then there is nothing to differentiate it from the US or European tours. It might be gimmicky but then perhaps it needs a bit of that to make ripples. If we go back to the Packer analogy, cricketers playing in pyjama's, what is that about? Roll on all these years..........
		
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if the PGA came up with this proposal i'd be just as critical though because it's just scattergun. There was potential to really develop a good team event ok the teams and how to get people invested was always going to be difficult but this is just a 54 hole individual strokeplay event. There's a gap sure but the LIV have filled it with sand.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

fundy said:



			Id be pretty certain that there will be next to no volume bet on the team events, it will be bet on the individual winner, because thats what the bookies know, thats what the punters know and thats what will be offered with any liquidity on the betting sites

Hard to bet on the teams when no one knows whos in which teams until close to the off too

Over time this may change slightly but certainly wont happen overnight, the betting will follow not lead on the team event being a success
		
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Every journey begins with a first step . I'm sure they are not expecting everything to fall into place in the first tournament. It will take time to grow, or flop within a year of course.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			if the PGA came up with this proposal i'd be just as critical though because it's just scattergun. There was potential to really develop a good team event ok the teams and how to get people invested was always going to be difficult but this is just a 54 hole individual strokeplay event. There's a gap sure but the LIV have filled it with sand.
		
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I don't disagree with your comments. I suspect they are prepared to be flexible though and change how they do things to improve and engage. The point is, they are not tied to 72 hole strokeplay, same system week after week.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but as Mel pointed out it does draw in the betting markets, I don't bet but the market is huge, and viewers may buy into it.

As a shotgun start it is also a days golf compressed into 4-5 hours rather than a whole day and there will be no dead time whilst the last few groups take 10 minutes to decide a shot as the director can move to any hole and find a group playing. On Sunday in the PGA Scheffler played one hole and one shot in a spell of 45 minutes. I don't think it was his fault but how can that be good tv?

Let's face it, if they did more of the same then there is nothing to differentiate it from the US or European tours. It might be gimmicky but then perhaps it needs a bit of that to make ripples. If we go back to the Packer analogy, cricketers playing in pyjama's, what is that about? Roll on all these years..........
		
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There are disadvantages with the shotgun start. Personally, as an event develops currently, the leaders emerge from the pack. And I enjoy watching the lions share of their rounds, and see how they cope under the pressure as they get to the finishing line. With a shotgun start, there will be so much going on, inevitably we will see a lot of footage of players not in contention. If big name players like Dustin are not in contention, undoubtedly we'll still see their shots, which will take away some time from the leaders. Not just watching their actual shots, but also the time the commentators have to build up the difficulty of a particular shot they have to play, or praise an excellent shot they just played under pressure. Furthermore, if there are any stand out holes on the course, like driveable par 4's, then the broadcasters may feature those more simply because there are always players on them. Especially early in the rounds, even on the final day. Again, some might say that is great as we see more of a feature hole, but then it may take away from watching some of the leaders playing other holes at any given time.

I wonder what it will be like for fans at the event. Yes, there will be more action to watch as you get to the end of the day. However, currently we know that the ultimate winning putt will be on the 18th green. With a shotgun start, it could be impossible to know where that glory moment will be, especially if scores are tight. I can imagine fans frantically trying to get from one part of the course to another to see that winning moment. Inevitably, there will be fewer fans for the winning player to celebrate that moment, as the fans will be spread over the course.

On balance, I think shotgun starts can be good at club level, when you want everyone finished about the same time so that food can be served and presentation completed. But, I don't think it will enhance golf from a fans perspective when watching the professional game.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You joking ?

Build an “affiliation” to a made up team that won’t be the same again 🤷‍♂️

What “gap” do you think needs filling ?
		
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Phil, there are people who I’m sure the current golf model fully satisfies there needs, maybe you’re one of them. But, there are loads of people who have no interest in watching 4 days of tournament golf, played over what, 45 hours approx? The whole Liv weekend will be a 3rd of that,


Liverpoolphil said:



			The same gap they tried to fill with the “6’s” and ended up being a damp squid because the majority actually prefer to watch the individual format ?

Or the mixed format which did the same

Is golf on a decline somewhere that means we need to find an alternative format ? Are we really struggling at the moment ?

When the British Masters comes around do they struggle to sell the tickets - same with the PGA , The Open ?

There always seems to be their small minority that have this narrative that we must find something new and different - is it because cricket did something new ?

I could sort of understand if the sport was struggling badly and people just weren’t watching but that’s not the case

People imo want to watch good golf from the top players regardless of the format

The Saudi thing isn’t about “growing the game” or “bringing excitement” into the sport - it’s just rich oil barons sport washing and wanting to use their money to start ti dominate sport - that’s all it is

The minute the PGA and ET ban players from entering their tournaments will the best thing for the sport - spreading it out amongst multiple tours fighting for the riches  is not good for the sport or the spectators
		
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You think they’ll ban DJ? 
He’s part of the reason sponsors pump good money into the tour. Trust me, there’ll be a lot of the top players on the PGA looking at the LIV series a little differently today.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			if the PGA came up with this proposal i'd be just as critical though because it's just scattergun. There was potential to really develop a good team event ok the teams and how to get people invested was always going to be difficult but this is just a 54 hole individual strokeplay event. There's a gap sure but the LIV have filled it with sand.
		
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Agreed. Even if the team event was a bit like F1, where you had manufacturer teams like Callaway, Titleist, PING etc and some non-golf manufacturer teams like Red Bull, Adidas, Nike, it could make it more interesting from a team perspective. Golfers would sign up for that team, and then it would be a partnership while they were contracted to that team.

However, just random teams every week is a complete turn off. Unless the team actually represents something (e.g Ryder Cup), who cares. I watch the Pro-Am at Pebble Beach each year on the TV. Mainly because I like the course, and it is interesting to see the odd celebrity hit a shot (even though I don't know most of them). I have zero interest in the team scores though. And, I have absolutely no interest in watching any PGA event when they occasionally have pros playing as pairs. I have zero attachment to any team, even if I am a big fan of any of the individual players. I'd love to see McIlroy or Woods win another major (or any big event), but if McIlroy and Woods played as a pair in an event, regardless of prize money, I really don't care too much if they win or not.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Saturday evening, few beers, bets on, sat in the garden watching the LIV event draw to a conclusion as multiple players and teams fight for a MASSIVE prize, or late Sunday night/early hours of Monday morning, trying to stay awake to watch the Canadian Open stumble to an end.
Oh yeah, and one of them is free to watch without paying any subscriptions or breaking any laws.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, there are people who I’m sure the current golf model fully satisfies there needs, maybe you’re one of them. But, there are loads of people who have no interest in watching 4 days of tournament golf, played over what, 45 hours approx? The whole Liv weekend will be a 3rd of that,
		
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Loads ? So they want to watch 3 days instead ? And how come they didn’t go and watch the 6’s ? 

Why did that not suceed ? Why don’t people flock to see the par 3 champs ? 



			You think they’ll ban DJ?
He’s part of the reason sponsors pump good money into the tour. Trust me, there’ll be a lot of the top players on the PGA looking at the LIV series a little differently today.
		
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Yes they will ban him - he will already be losing sponsers over it

The PGA tour will have no issues going at this


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## fundy (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Loads ? So they want to watch 3 days instead ? And how come they didn’t go and watch the 6’s ?

Why did that not suceed ? Why don’t people flock to see the par 3 champs ?


*Yes they will ban him - he will already be losing sponsers over it*

The PGA tour will have no issues going at this
		
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He will when one of his main sponsors is sponsoring the Canadian Open thats on at the same time!


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2022)

The pace of play will be exactly the same as ever.
There may be fewer players all starting at the same time but it'll take the usual amount of time to get round...
An issue with going to watch a shotgun start is that you have 5 hours to get to see whoever you want..
And it's not that stellar a field really..apart from DJ and a few others it's mainly a bunch of has-beens or never will be's...
DJ doesn't care about legacies and traditions.. he's making his money so he can retire and make more babies with Paulina..
I don't see the need for this series.. the changing teams bit seems odd... what's the point of that?
No plans to tune in or follow...


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Loads ? So they want to watch 3 days instead ? And how come they didn’t go and watch the 6’s ?

Why did that not suceed ? Why don’t people flock to see the par 3 champs ?


Yes they will ban him - he will already be losing sponsers over it

The PGA tour will have no issues going at this
		
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I think you’re underestimating the influence of the Saudi money. 
The reason this will succeed is because it has huge financial backing, and, it does appeal to many many golf fans.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think you’re underestimating the influence of the Saudi money.
The reason this will succeed is because it has huge financial backing, and, it does appeal to many many golf fans.
		
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I think you are in for a shock

They can’t even sell tickets to it at the moment to the point they are giving them away 

There is no real coverage and non of the main stream media channels will touch it 

It won’t be a success with no one watching it


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## IainP (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			....
If players play the Liv tour then back to PGA or dp world tour for the next week like it should work there won't be an issue ..but the PGA don't like not getting to call the shots.


Don't think they can ban him from majors bar the PGA
		
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I've quoted this, but applies to several posts.
The PGA *Tour* and the US PGA (who run the major) are different things.

As Wayne fired at Greg ...
"I have 2 comments. Will you stop referring to it as the PGA. It's the PGA Tour. Secondly from someone who has known Greg for 50 years. Greg is only about Greg," wrote Grady.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Consider cycling. There are teams, but even in a sport where working as a team has a genuine influence on how a rider can do, nobody cares about the teams, or supports them. Its still all about the individual. With golf there isnt even a player cooperation dynamic for the good of theteam. Even F1 has some element of that. But in golf it is irrelevant and simply a major misjudgement. It sounds like an idea from corporate suits who dont actually know anything about sport.
They may as well just pick a random group of players every week, and give them a bonus. Fans, even if they are watching the individual element, wont give a monkeys. Its a nothing.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think you are in for a shock

They can’t even sell tickets to it at the moment to the point they are giving them away

There is no real coverage and non of the main stream media channels will touch it

It won’t be a success with no one watching it
		
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How many times!!
it’s on YoubTube, the infrastructure for broadcasting it is already going in. Basically, if you have a phone and an internet connection, you can watch it anywhere on the planet.

One feels like one is banging one’s head against a brick wall here 😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How many times!!
it’s on YoubTube, the infrastructure for broadcasting it is already going in. Basically, if you have a phone and an internet connection, you can watch it anywhere on the planet.

One feels like one is banging one’s head against a brick wall here 😂
		
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If it was on twitter they would be fine 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How many times!!
it’s on YoubTube, the infrastructure for broadcasting it is already going in. Basically, if you have a phone and an internet connection, you can watch it anywhere on the planet.

One feels like one is banging one’s head against a brick wall here 😂
		
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So what if it’s on you tube ? People still won’t watch it - do you even understand the golf market and the people that watch the comps ?

you are dreaming if you think this is going to be a success - money doesn’t buy everything and not all sportswashing works


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Saturday evening, few beers, bets on, sat in the garden watching the LIV event draw to a conclusion as multiple players and teams fight for a MASSIVE prize,* or late Sunday night/early hours of Monday morning, trying to stay awake to watch the Canadian Open stumble to an end.
Oh yeah, and one of them is free to watch without paying any subscriptions or breaking any laws.
		
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Cool lifestyle dude, you have me convinced. All round your place for the highlight of the year.


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## IainP (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm amazed by DJ jumping ship. That is a huge coup for the tour. I know his form has dropped recently but even so, that will surely shock the PGA.
		
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Wonder if still a little baggage from his  "PGA Tour ban", that wasn't a ban 😉
Also wouldn't be surprised if some extra $ have been promised to cover sponsorship drops etc.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The reason this will succeed is because.... it does appeal to many many golf fans.
		
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What is 'it' that appeals ?

54 holes ? Big deal. Nobody is obliged to watch 4 days anyway. Most drop in and out as suits
Team ? That is a nothing.
Guaranteed big money for the players ? Thats a nothing for spectators.
Bigger money ? Thats a nothing for spectators.
Shotgunstart ? Yes, that could provide some interest.
Saudi involvement ? Of interest only to those keen on sportswashing a very dodgy and backwards regime.
Missing most if yhe worlds best players ? That has to be a negative in everyones book.

Some players may have indeed issues with the running of, and financial structure and distribution of money on the PGA Tour. But that is of zero relevance to spectators. Spectators, or Golf in its overall sense, are not looking for a solution, that LIV purports to solve


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Cool lifestyle dude, you have me convinced. All round your place for the highlight of the year.
		
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Welcome to watch it from the inflatable recliner in our pool my man. ;-)


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## woofers (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Saturday evening, few beers, bets on, sat in the garden watching the LIV event draw to a conclusion as multiple players and teams fight for a MASSIVE prize, or late Sunday night/early hours of Monday morning, trying to stay awake to watch the Canadian Open stumble to an end.
Oh yeah, and one of them is free to watch without paying any subscriptions or breaking any laws.
		
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Well, you could do both, but I’d have thought that given your enthusiasm, you would actually be at this inaugural ground breaking, innovative, supercharged, reinvigorating, cutting edge piece of entertainment ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what if it’s on you tube ? People still won’t watch it - do you even understand the golf market and the people that watch the comps ?

you are dreaming if you think this is going to be a success - money doesn’t buy everything and not all sportswashing works
		
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I’d say I’ve a better understanding of the golf market than somebody who can’t recognise that fans want more of the 17th at TPC, more of the 16th at Arizona, more of the competitiveness and excitement that we say all day of each day of The Ryder Cup.
The culture in the USA is beers, music, and laughs on the golf course. The US fans will love the concept of the LIV, aside from the dyed in the wool PGA Tour traditionalists. 
Why the objection to something different? The LIV has taken nothing away from the other tours, and offers something different.
It strikes me that you want golf to be on your terms, the way you like it, and everybody else has to like it or lump it?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well, you could do both, but I’d have thought that given your enthusiasm, you would actually be at this inaugural ground breaking, innovative, supercharged, reinvigorating, cutting edge piece of entertainment ?
		
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If I lived in the uk, and not in Spain, I’d be there - 100%


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## PieMan (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If I lived in the uk, and not in Spain, I’d be there - 100%
		
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Shame as Hemel Hempstead is a cracking night out........!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d say I’ve a better understanding of the golf market than somebody who can’t recognise that fans want more of the 17th at TPC, more of the 16th at Arizona, more of the competitiveness and excitement that we say all day of each day of The Ryder Cup.
The culture in the USA is beers, music, and laughs on the golf course. The US fans will love the concept of the LIV, aside from the dyed in the wool PGA Tour traditionalists.
Why the objection to something different? The LIV has taken nothing away from the other tours, and offers something different.
It strikes me that you want golf to be on your terms, the way you like it, and everybody else has to like it or lump it?
		
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so you think what golf needs is more drunk people throwing cans and beer all over the course and the players ? Fans wants to see the golfers being shouted and screamed “mashed potato” at them as they take shots ? - you think that fans want to see more like football crowds than traditional golf crowds ? 

And here they have it at a golf club that the general public can’t play 🤷‍♂️

And the excitement from the ryder cup comes down to the rivalry between the US and the European - have you ever watched a Presidents Cup and seen how damp it is ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			so you think what golf needs is more drunk people throwing cans and beer all over the course and the players ? Fans wants to see the golfers being shouted and screamed “mashed potato” at them as they take shots ? - you think that fans want to see more like football crowds than traditional golf crowds ?

And here they have it at a golf club that the general public can’t play 🤷‍♂️

And the excitement from the ryder cup comes down to the rivalry between the US and the European - have you ever watched a Presidents Cup and seen how damp it is ?
		
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Just because it’s not to your taste, doesn’t mean it’s not to others. 
For the record, I don’t see the point of throwing beer around on a golf course, but, that kind of atmosphere is very very rare in golf, so why can’t we have a series where it’s expected, rather than frowned upon? Different strokes for different folks.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d say I’ve a better understanding of the golf market than somebody who can’t recognise that fans want more of the 17th at TPC, more of the 16th at Arizona, more of the competitiveness and excitement that we say all day of each day of The Ryder Cup.
The culture in the USA is beers, music, and laughs on the golf course. The US fans will love the concept of the LIV, aside from the dyed in the wool PGA Tour traditionalists.
Why the objection to something different? The LIV has taken nothing away from the other tours, and offers something different.
It strikes me that you want golf to be on your terms, the way you like it, and everybody else has to like it or lump it?
		
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What is actually different about it, apart from the lower quality fields, that actually matters to fans ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			What is actually different about it, apart from the lower quality fields, that actually matters to fans ?
		
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Mate, the differences have been talked about at length in this thread.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Mate, the differences have been talked about at length in this thread.
		
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I agree. But a lower quality field and a shotgun start doesnt sound like a game changer fans havent been clamouring for. So in sum, it offers them less than they already have. Hardly a recipe for LIV success then.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I agree. But a lower quality field and a shotgun start doesnt sound like a game changer fans havent been clamouring for. So in sum, it offers them less than they already have. Hardly a recipe for LIV success then.
		
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It's been said that year 1 doesn't need to be a big success

Even if only some top 200 players came it's the beta testing year 

It's next year they aiming for 

Now, they have DJ along with 14 other top 100 players , that's pretty good with 6 more players to be announced

I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it live and then after the season into next year

No point all the judging a book by it's cover

It could be great but also it could be god awful, I'd rather give it a chance than blindly refuse to even entertain it


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## Ethan (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			He wouldn't be now DJ is there would he? A younger player who still is very much challenging .. I know Phil won a major recently but DJ has his career ahead of him not behind (well did before this gamble)
		
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Phil's ego is much bigger than DJ's, though. DJ has also called off a bit lately and dropped out of the top 10. I bet Phil thinks he could take him.


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## rksquire (Jun 1, 2022)

It's certainly divisive, but it's going to happen and is definitely not "dead in the water".  It might be short lived and no threat like the XFL (although the Rock did recently buy this).

Impossible as it may be to separate the two - ie the Golf and the Saudi backers - the discussions / debates for the 'Golf' have some merit; the discussions / debate for the Saudi aspect less so (basically, there can be argument for their human rights argument, treatment of women, sexuality etc. but there's a lot of nose holding while the DP World throw money to the ET, Newcastle have new owners and there's a World Cup in Qatar at Christmas.  It's hard not to conflate the issues but if we were to consider just the golfing element would we all feel the same?

The PGA Tour has reached the summit to the detriment of the ET.  Now that it is there, there's no way they want to have a rival organisation threaten their power.  But similarly, surely competition and an alternative is a good thing?  

I don't for one second think everything LIV are proposing will work.  But in a game often described as stale and too 'traditional', why not think outside the box and see what happens? If you think the format is ridiculous you've nothing to worry about as it will help lead to its failure.  If there's some successful elements, maybe others will have to adapt to survive.  Competition is good (right?) and players surely have the right to decide what career path is right for them?  Moral questions regarding human rights etc., obviously come at a price but for the majority it's a price worth paying (Tennis, F1, WWE, Boxing etc.).  Sure, there's a minority of individuals who stay true to their principles, but I suspect most, in the end, will find a way to justify it.

Being broadcast on Youtube is interesting; I consume a lot of golf content on Youtube and know the golf 'influencers' have been present at Tournaments in Dubai and Phoenix etc., and marketing companies are loving it. Much like the early days of digital streaming it has to start somewhere (Movie studios were quite vociferous in their opposition to Netflix's output but when the 'contractors' signed deals to star in the movies they've had to change their model to suit). I've tuned in for the Trilby Tour so I'll will be checking it out.

The lack of ticket sales - it'll be interesting to see how todays announcement of players changes this.  I'd pay to watch Westwood, DJ, GMac and Poulter if it was on my doorstep.

I listened to Carters interview with Norman and it really was quite a condescending, dismissive interview..... I suspect he felt, and still feels, it won't be a success.  The BBC had such an attitude with the UFC in terms of its coverage, preferring to extol Boxing; ultimately this has changed and is now a bedfellow with Bellator in order to remain relevant in the MMA world.  The sustainability of the LIV venture is dependent on attracting star power and it's of to a good start with DJ; but with the money on offer, and the target audience, it has the ability to make unknown people into stars.


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

I don’t think


rksquire said:



			It's certainly divisive, but it's going to happen and is definitely not "dead in the water".  It might be short lived and no threat like the XFL (although the Rock did recently buy this).

Impossible as it may be to separate the two - ie the Golf and the Saudi backers - the discussions / debates for the 'Golf' have some merit; the discussions / debate for the Saudi aspect less so (basically, there can be argument for their human rights argument, treatment of women, sexuality etc. but there's a lot of nose holding while the DP World throw money to the ET, Newcastle have new owners and there's a World Cup in Qatar at Christmas.  It's hard not to conflate the issues but if we were to consider just the golfing element would we all feel the same?

The PGA Tour has reached the summit to the detriment of the ET.  Now that it is there, there's no way they want to have a rival organisation threaten their power.  But similarly, surely competition and an alternative is a good thing? 

I don't for one second think everything LIV are proposing will work.  But in a game often described as stale and too 'traditional', why not think outside the box and see what happens? If you think the format is ridiculous you've nothing to worry about as it will help lead to its failure.  If there's some successful elements, maybe others will have to adapt to survive.  Competition is good (right?) and *players surely have the right to decide what career path is right for them?*  Moral questions regarding human rights etc., obviously come at a price but for the majority it's a price worth paying (Tennis, F1, WWE, Boxing etc.).  Sure, there's a minority of individuals who stay true to their principles, but I suspect most, in the end, will find a way to justify it.

Being broadcast on Youtube is interesting; I consume a lot of golf content on Youtube and know the golf 'influencers' have been present at Tournaments in Dubai and Phoenix etc., and marketing companies are loving it. Much like the early days of digital streaming it has to start somewhere (Movie studios were quite vociferous in their opposition to Netflix's output but when the 'contractors' signed deals to star in the movies they've had to change their model to suit). I've tuned in for the Trilby Tour so I'll will be checking it out.

The lack of ticket sales - it'll be interesting to see how todays announcement of players changes this.  I'd pay to watch Westwood, DJ, GMac and Poulter if it was on my doorstep.

I listened to Carters interview with Norman and it really was quite a condescending, dismissive interview..... I suspect he felt, and still feels, it won't be a success.  The BBC had such an attitude with the UFC in terms of its coverage, preferring to extol Boxing; ultimately this has changed and is now a bedfellow with Bellator in order to remain relevant in the MMA world.  The sustainability of the LIV venture is dependent on attracting star power and it's of to a good start with DJ; but with the money on offer, and the target audience, it has the ability to make unknown people into stars.
		
Click to expand...

Talked about the other stuff earlier 

the bit in bold.... Absolutely fine if they accept that they won't be invited to PGA Tour events/DP Tour events and Majors if the organisations don't wish to offer them an invite sadly they'll want their cake and eat it


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 1, 2022)

Can't wait for the NRA AR-15 Classic in Sandy Hook and the inaugural Putin Invitational Series to be announced. Would be great with some more competition to get those dinosaurs at the PGA Tour to wake up.


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## fundy (Jun 1, 2022)

Anyone want to guess what DJs appearance money is? Some fun numbers being rumoured lol


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## rksquire (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I don’t think


Talked about the other stuff earlier

the bit in bold.... Absolutely fine if they accept that they won't be invited to PGA Tour events/DP Tour events and Majors if the organisations don't wish to offer them an invite sadly they'll want their cake and eat it
		
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I think with the money they'll make they'll have plenty of cake so I don't see tour events being of any consequence.  Monahan may wish that to be a bargaining tool but I just don't see it.  Majors on the other hand is an issue, depending on the ambitions of the players.  However, if they create their own successful breakaway tournaments and create 'stars' in the Golf world, you may find the interest in inviting these guys to the Majors increases..... even as an attempt to discredit their ability against bonafide golfers still plying their trade under Monahan.   Poulter, Westwood and GMAC are unlikely to win Majors again but they have a Ryder Cup legacy and future captaincies that they've just, quite happily, put in jeopardy.  Same for Horsfield and his future endeavours.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Can't wait for the NRA AR-15 Classic in Sandy Hook and the inaugural Putin Invitational Series to be announced. Would be great with some more competition to get those dinosaurs at the PGA Tour to wake up.
		
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Nothing like a bit of whataboutary and sensationalism


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I don’t think


Talked about the other stuff earlier

the bit in bold.... Absolutely fine if they accept that they won't be invited to PGA Tour events/DP Tour events and Majors if the organisations don't wish to offer them an invite sadly they'll want their cake and eat it
		
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does DJ need to be invited to the Masters or the US Open? he won both so meets the entry requirements 

Id love to see tiger go across just to see what the PGA would then do.. because they wouldnt dare ban tiger from their tour


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2022)

fundy said:



			Anyone want to guess what DJs appearance money is? Some fun numbers being rumoured lol
		
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$125 million I saw reported...that sort of cash is hard to turn down no matter where it comes from


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## Swango1980 (Jun 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			$125 million I saw reported...that sort of cash is hard to turn down no matter where it comes from
		
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It's a lot of money. They'll be kicking themselves if they find out he would have done it for $120 million.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 1, 2022)

The greed of the human being is hard to understand.
People with more money than they will ever need,for some reason just want more.
If DJ does sign I’m sure other big names will follow and it could actually take off.


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			does DJ need to be invited to the Masters or the US Open? he won both so meets the entry requirements

Id love to see tiger go across just to see what the PGA would then do.. because they wouldnt dare ban tiger from their tour
		
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The masters is literally an invitational 

US Open is an interesting one I guess we will get to find out soon


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## Depreston (Jun 1, 2022)

rksquire said:



			I think with the money they'll make they'll have plenty of cake so I don't see tour events being of any consequence.  Monahan may wish that to be a bargaining tool but I just don't see it.  Majors on the other hand is an issue, depending on the ambitions of the players.  However, if they create their own successful breakaway tournaments and create 'stars' in the Golf world, you may find the interest in inviting these guys to the Majors increases..... even as an attempt to discredit their ability against bonafide golfers still plying their trade under Monahan.   Poulter, Westwood and GMAC are unlikely to win Majors again but they have a Ryder Cup legacy and future captaincies that they've just, quite happily, put in jeopardy.  Same for Horsfield and his future endeavours.
		
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How do they get the OWGR ranking points to get into the tournaments ? None for LIV events I believe and the Asia tour will be low? 

This is more a Gooch and Horsfield problem

is the Asia tour/LIV the future ? 

Will the Saudis Chuck billions to create a world tour?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			The masters is literally an invitational

US Open is an interesting one I guess we will get to find out soon
		
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yes it is however the PGA has nothing to do with who can be invited

DJ is qualified after winning it..


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## rksquire (Jun 1, 2022)

Depreston said:



			How do they get the OWGR ranking points to get into the tournaments ? None for LIV events I believe and the Asia tour will be low?

This is more a Gooch and Horsfield problem

is the Asia tour/LIV the future ?

Will the Saudis Chuck billions to create a world tour?
		
Click to expand...

Masters is invitational, the Opens are 'open' so players could qualify.  The ranking points system has changed over time, the PGA didn't always recognize it yet players still played in Majors.  Things change.  Low points for the Asia tour has partly to do with the quality of the field.  Golf can't be a closed shop to only the established partners - I'm not saying this is the answer but alot of the posturing is self-preservation and posturing.  

Will the Saudi's use their billions to create a World Tour.... they're splashing plenty, so hard to see why they wouldn't.  It's very interesting, I'm not (yet) in favour of it but I find the commentary to be enlightening - BBC reports Nicklaus turned vast sums, but conveniently forgets to mention he already took Saudi cash to design for them, and was delighted to do so.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Masters is invitational, the Opens are 'open' so players could qualify.  The ranking points system has changed over time, the PGA didn't always recognize it yet players still played in Majors.  Things change.  Low points for the Asia tour has partly to do with the quality of the field.  Golf can't be a closed shop to only the established partners - I'm not saying this is the answer but alot of the posturing is self-preservation and posturing. 

Will the Saudi's use their billions to create a World Tour.... they're splashing plenty, so hard to see why they wouldn't.  It's very interesting, I'm not (yet) in favour of it but I find the commentary to be enlightening - BBC reports Nicklaus turned vast sums, but conveniently forgets to mention he already took Saudi cash to design for them, and was delighted to do so.
		
Click to expand...


I suspect the more obtuse the PGA Tour become about releasing players, the more the Saudis will be happy to fund a tour that could potentially challenge the Americans. Personally, I'd love to see it.


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## louise_a (Jun 1, 2022)

$125 million is just obscene!


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but as Mel pointed out it does draw in the betting markets, I don't bet but the market is huge, and viewers may buy into it.

As a shotgun start it is also a days golf compressed into 4-5 hours rather than a whole day and there will be no dead time whilst the last few groups take 10 minutes to decide a shot as the director can move to any hole and find a group playing. On Sunday in the PGA Scheffler played one hole and one shot in a spell of 45 minutes. I don't think it was his fault but how can that be good tv?

Let's face it, if they did more of the same then there is nothing to differentiate it from the US or European tours. It might be gimmicky but then perhaps it needs a bit of that to make ripples. If we go back to the Packer analogy, cricketers playing in pyjama's, what is that about? Roll on all these years..........
		
Click to expand...

The issue for me is watering down events by spreading more players thinly over all of them. People mention cricket but it's telling that Test and domestic cricket, has fallen behind 20/20 and the IPL in terms of a spectacle and quality. IPL and 20/20 are a spectacle, but they're like chewing gum. Fun whilst it lasts but ultimately unmemorable entertainment without long term value. Of course TV and sponsors don't care. They get big TV figures etc on a rinse and repeat cycle. 

Golf could go the same way with SL.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I suspect the more obtuse the PGA Tour become about releasing players, the more the Saudis will be happy to fund a tour that could potentially challenge the Americans. Personally, I'd love to see it.
		
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Unless it crushes the PGA Tour then golf will lose as the sport will be diluted between numerous events. You want to watch the best players in one place compete? Forget it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

louise_a said:



			$125 million is just obscene!
		
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Just a drop in the oil ocean for them though - just sports washing 

Some will just ignore where the money is coming from


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d say I’ve a better understanding of the golf market than somebody who can’t recognise that fans want more of the 17th at TPC, more of the 16th at Arizona, more of the competitiveness and excitement that we say all day of each day of The Ryder Cup.
The culture in the USA is beers, music, and laughs on the golf course. The US fans will love the concept of the LIV, aside from the dyed in the wool PGA Tour traditionalists.
Why the objection to something different? The LIV has taken nothing away from the other tours, and offers something different.
It strikes me that you want golf to be on your terms, the way you like it, and everybody else has to like it or lump it?
		
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The lowest common denominator isn't always the best.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Unless it crushes the PGA Tour then golf will lose as the sport will be diluted between numerous events. You want to watch the best players in one place compete? Forget it.
		
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If it crushes the PGA Tour, then so be it. The majors will still exist, maybe we'll see golf become truly global instead of focussed on America. Lets be honest, is there really any noteable concern over who wins in most of the tour events, be it PGA or DP World. I don't think it will end the PGA Tour by the way, but hopefully it will kick start some change within how the organisation is run, and presents itself to the rest of the golfing world.
Aside from Antarctica, every continent should have either a major, or a competetion that stands up as being one of the highlights of the golfing calendar. As it stands, next year, 3 of them are in America and the other is in Liverpool. That needs to change for the global welfare of golf.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

louise_a said:



			$125 million is just obscene!
		
Click to expand...

The money is irrelevant to the spectator. LIV are trying to present it as a draw, but it is only an indication of what they reckon it will take to attract top golfers. And it seems it hasnt even done that. Most spectators dont know nor care what the prize money is.
In short, it seems like LIV will offer a lower quality field, fewer golfers, playing fewer holes.
Beats me how anyone can try to dress this up as a game changer fans have been looking for from pro golf.


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## OntheteeGavin (Jun 1, 2022)

Still wondering what the PGA & European tours (DP) have done so so wrong to the players who earn above an average salary! Nothing it's pure greed. 

Some of the pro comments are laughable, must be on a %.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The money is irrelevant to the spectator. LIV are trying to present it as a draw, but it is only an indication of what they reckon it will take to attract top golfers. And it seems it hasnt even done that. Most spectators dont know nor care what the prize money is.
In short, it seems like LIV will offer a lower quality field, fewer golfers, playing fewer holes.
Beats me how anyone can try to dress this up as a game changer fans have been looking for from pro golf.
		
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What gets the bigger crowd at the Olympics, the 10,000 metres or the 4 x 100 relay?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If it crushes the PGA Tour, then so be it. The majors will still exist, maybe we'll see golf become truly global instead of focussed on America. Lets be honest, is there really any noteable concern over who wins in most of the tour events, be it PGA or DP World. I don't think it will end the PGA Tour by the way, but hopefully it will kick start some change within how the organisation is run, and presents itself to the rest of the golfing world.
Aside from Antarctica, every continent should have either a major, or a competetion that stands up as being one of the highlights of the golfing calendar. As it stands, next year, 3 of them are in America and the other is in Liverpool. *That needs to change for the global welfare of golf.*

Click to expand...

Says who ?

The global welfare of golf appears to be very strong ?

Each continent has its top competition already



Mel Smooth said:



			What gets the bigger crowd at the Olympics, the 10,000 metres or the 4 x 100 relay?
		
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Not sure how that’s comparable 

How about this 

What got bigger crowds 

The British Masters at Woburn 

Or the Golf 6’s at Centurion 

Both golf events 

one the standard 72 hole strokeplay 

Guess which one sold out


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2022)

The funniest thing is DJ's agent saying the offer was "too compelling to pass up"
Yeah right 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
Just be honest and say I'm doing it for the money.....


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If it crushes the PGA Tour, then so be it. The majors will still exist, maybe we'll see golf become truly global instead of focussed on America. Lets be honest, is there really any noteable concern over who wins in most of the tour events, be it PGA or DP World. 
Aside from Antarctica, every continent should have either a major, or a competetion that stands up as being one of the highlights of the golfing calendar. As it stands, next year, 3 of them are in America and the other is in Liverpool. That needs to change for the global welfare of golf.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be doubtful that it will be crushed to the point where LIV rules the roost and turns the PGA Tour into its current European Tour equivalent. I'm not massively keen on the PGA Tour being quite dogmatic about pushing the game in different directions, but at the same time it has made golf a strong brand which is at risk of being diluted down in the name of 'progressing the game'. People should be careful for what they wish for. 👍


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What gets the bigger crowd at the Olympics, the 10,000 metres or the 4 x 100 relay?
		
Click to expand...

I dont know, but presumably the 10000m. Not sure how that is relevant to golf though.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont know, but presumably the 10000m. Not sure how that is relevant to golf though.
		
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It's not, but it's relevant to the point made that there is less to watch in the LIV series, there's less racing in a 4x100 relay, but it is in the top three viewd track and field events.

Sometimes less is more. ;-)


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## BrianM (Jun 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The funniest thing is DJ's agent saying the offer was "too compelling to pass up"
Yeah right 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
Just be honest and say I'm doing it for the money.....
		
Click to expand...

This is the thing though, it’s their job, they are playing golf for a living, it’s irrelevant what they have or haven’t in the bank in my opinion.
We would all take a pay rise if we were offered I’m sure.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 1, 2022)

Does it really matter which country the money is coming from?
Is it just people getting uppity or showing others they give a toss.
China I suspect makes 99% of clubs


Liverpoolphil said:



			Just a drop in the oil ocean for them though - just sports washing

Some will just ignore where the money is coming from
		
Click to expand...

Have you looked where your clubs are made?
And mine,and most on here.
Your the google expert 
Try China atrocities


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Average world ranking of the players named so far : 304

Top 10 - 0
Top 20 - 2
Top 50 - 4
Top 100 - 16


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

BrianM said:



			This is the thing though, it’s their job, they are playing golf for a living, it’s irrelevant what they have or haven’t in the bank in my opinion.
We would all take a pay rise if we were offered I’m sure.
		
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Depends who is offering the payrise..


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Average world ranking of the players named so far : 304

Top 10 - 0
Top 20 - 2
Top 50 - 4
Top 100 - 16
		
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As Rory said - there are Real Tournaments going on this week at the Memorial and next Week at the Canadian Open where the fields are strong


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532028128264069120


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Average world ranking of the players named so far : 304

Top 10 - 0
Top 20 - 2
Top 50 - 4
Top 100 - 16
		
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It's the first event, I still think the field is impressive enough.

Even Rory stating now that the LIV series players shouldn't be harshly punished, so that's him re-opening the door to a big appearance fee from Gregg


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's the first event, I still think the field is impressive enough.

Even Rory stating now that the LIV series players shouldn't be harshly punished, so that's him re-opening the door to a big appearance fee from Gregg
		
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Personally I wouldn't shell out the entrance fee to go watch, even if I wanted to. I'm sure some will enough to be a successful turnout? I've no clue.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Personally I wouldn't shell out the entrance fee to go watch, even if I wanted to. I'm sure some will enough to be a successful turnout? I've no clue.
		
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That's your personal choice, and I expect the 1st event will be fairly low key so they can iron a few things out, but I suspect by the time they are into the US events there'll be plenty of fans on the course - adding to the atmosphere.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Does it really matter which country the money is coming from?
Is it just people getting uppity or showing others they give a toss.
China I suspect makes 99% of clubs


Have you looked where your clubs are made?
And mine,and most on here.
Your the google expert
Try China atrocities
		
Click to expand...

The masters with its history of treatment of players of colour aswell.. 

we turn a blind eye when it suits ..

for some its a genuine moral issue.. for most they are using that because they dont like change.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 1, 2022)

The PGA Tour rejected requests for waivers from players who want to play and reiterated its earlier threat to ban those that flout the rules.

"Members who violate the tournament regulations are subject to disciplinary action," read a PGA Tour statement.

"As communicated to our entire membership on 10 May, PGA Tour members have not been authorized to participate in the Saudi Golf League's London event, under PGA Tour tournament regulations."

The DP World Tour, which has also rejected waiver requests, told BBC Sport it has no comment to make at present.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The masters with its history of treatment of players of colour aswell..

we turn a blind eye when it suits ..

for some its a genuine moral issue.. for most they are using that because they dont like change.
		
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Who is turning a blind eye on the Masters history ? It’s been a discussion on here many times - And is a history that they are doing their best to change even slowly - Saudi are doing nothing to change their attitude towards -women , LGBQT community , human rights issue and even there on going war with Yemen and of course the state sponsered murder

I have no interest in any event staged by the Saudi regime whether that be football , F1 , Boxing or anything else they have tried to buy

Everything about the whole thing disgusts many people - including the man at the head of it and many of the statements he has come out with.

People can use whataboutary if they want to but doesn’t make peoples point about sport washing irrelevant - morals will be playing a big part in it for many

I live 15 mins from Centurion and been offered free tickets - turned down as have many of the people I know and all for the same reason . Currently they are begging clubs in the area for help - not getting much uptake for that help.

It’s the same for Aramaco Series


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 1, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Can't wait for the NRA AR-15 Classic in Sandy Hook and the inaugural Putin Invitational Series to be announced. Would be great with some more competition to get those dinosaurs at the PGA Tour to wake up.
		
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You will need to explain the relevance of a reference to a massacre of children in a thread discussing a golf tournament, I can't see one.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Unless it crushes the PGA Tour then golf will lose as the sport will be diluted between numerous events. You want to watch the best players in one place compete? Forget it.
		
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I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money.


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## Bobthesock (Jun 1, 2022)

Read on the golf channel website that the top 5 from the Asian tour event at slaley hall this week qualify, is this right? Then maybe Phil and that's the field complete?


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## pokerjoke (Jun 1, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money.
		
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Very very good point.


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## IainP (Jun 1, 2022)

I was having a general reflect - us weekend chompers, we pay an entry fee for comps and if we do well we may win more back.
This carries on into the smaller tours (e.g  Jamega,  Clutch Pro) - the pros pay to enter hoping to win more.
At some point the tournaments become a money making event in their own right - they become 'entertainment'.

The main attraction to LIV is for the players  - guaranteed money, shorter week away from home. More predictable working times.
Whether that can tick the entertainment box remains the big unknown.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money.
		
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This with bells on is the big point for me. The PGA don't like having done to them what they did to the ET back in day


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## evemccc (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The masters with its history of treatment of players of colour aswell..

we turn a blind eye when it suits ..

for some its a genuine moral issue.. for most they are using that because they dont like change.
		
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Disagree with the last bit…that people or groups of people ‘don’t like change’ is often said…I think what’s more pertinent is that the PGA Tour, connected businesses and US golf media are very fearful of losing out

They were pretty much at ease with the changes, in the power balance between the US PGA Tour vs. the European Tour and Asian tours from the 1980s to present day, which saw the PGA Tour increase its dominance


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 1, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money.
		
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I don’t think it’s as simple as that 

Faldo gave a good chat about it a while back and it was more than just money for players 

A lot of moved to help them gain entry into the majors and they believed it gave them a better chance to compete in those US based majors - and it was prob a big reason why Monty didn’t grab one because he stayed n the ET more. They were going to be playing on year round courses 

He also mentioned being based in the US ( Florida where most went ) helped them with getting established with sponsers to get into events etc 

And then the key was the ranking points were always higher for the US players - chicken and egg scenario 

The money came after but getting a PGA Tour card is what moved the likes of Rose , McDowell , Poulter , Donald etc forward 

Gaining a future for them will of course be in their mind when young and looking to establish themselves in the sport 

DJ getting £100mil to play in 6 events is just down to money , and same with the others at the later stages of their career - it seems nothing but money driven , it will give them a big balance in their account - and if that’s their sole aim now then it’s perfect for them. 

What LIV should have done is joined with ET and worked through it that way to try and be on par with PGA


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## Imurg (Jun 1, 2022)

RBC have dropped DJ and GMac as ambassadors 

And so it begins.....


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532033066067173384


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532033066067173384

Click to expand...

If that's true that's a bit pathetic ..


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## Dando (Jun 1, 2022)

I guess the reported £100m DJ has banked will keep his Mrs in nose candy for a while


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## Bratty (Jun 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			RBC have dropped DJ and GMac as ambassadors

And so it begins.....
		
Click to expand...

Well, if RBC are sponsoring them as ambassadors, and the players then don't turn up to play in their event, I think RBC have made the right call.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If that's true that's a bit pathetic ..
		
Click to expand...

Obviously, it could be untrue, but if that's the consequences they face, then I doubt many of the LIV defectees are too concerned. 


3 day week, guaranteed million a year if they come bog last in every comp - alll 8 of them, and 3 months off over Christmas.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Obviously, it could be untrue, but if that's the consequences they face, then I doubt many of the LIV defectees are too concerned.


3 day week, guaranteed million a year if they come bog last in every comp - alll 8 of them, and 3 months off over Christmas.







Click to expand...

It would be litterally not wanting to lose face. A trivial ban


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 1, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			You will need to explain the relevance of a reference to a massacre of children in a thread discussing a golf tournament, I can't see one.
		
Click to expand...

No, I actually really don’t need to.


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## woofers (Jun 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Does it really matter which country the money is coming from?
		
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Barking_Mad said:



			Depends who is offering the payrise..
		
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Well yeah, I think that’s the crux of the matter for a lot of folk. The money is coming from a state that appears to be trying to ingratiate itself into the western world but without accepting, or refusing to accept, many of the western worlds ways, i.e not carrying out mass beheadings, murdering and cutting up journalists, equal rights for women, gender and sexual recognition of minorities etc etc.
I suspect if Greg and his buddies had obtained funding from Switzerland or Australia for example there wouldn’t be such a ruckus…….but it’s coming from a rather dodgy regime with an appalling human rights record, who seem to think they can buy their way into legitimacy. Perhaps they can these days, as ethics, morals and fair play seem to be dwindling across many aspects of not just sport, but life in general.


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## Backsticks (Jun 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well yeah, I think that’s the crux of the matter for a lot of folk. The money is coming from a state that appears to be trying to ingratiate itself into the western world but without accepting, or refusing to accept, many of the western worlds ways, i.e not carrying out mass beheadings, murdering and cutting up journalists, equal rights for women, gender and sexual recognition of minorities etc etc.
I suspect if Greg and his buddies had obtained funding from Switzerland or Australia for example there wouldn’t be such a ruckus…….but it’s coming from a rather dodgy regime with an appalling human rights record.
		
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I'm not sure about that. I think the questionable moral issue is one that has been just put in there to muddy the water. We all buy Saudi oil. Its impossible to separate your life from lots of unpleasant tangles, whether political, environmental, child labour, and so on. Is everyone in Newcastle going to stop going to games now ?

The real issue here is that the PGA Tour is being challenged. If everyone jumped lock stock and barrel to LIV, and they were playing proper 4 round tournament golf without any of the pathetic attempts to 'refresh' golf or bring it added razzmatazz, I would be fine with it, and simply keep tuning in and following it. But its the Mickey Mouse modifications which add up to nothing, and a rift which means we can end up with a split golfing world boxing style, that makes it messy. I dont care who gets the money at the end of the day as an organisation. I dont care what the players are paid - whatever it is, if it comes from sponsors, TV rights, and , merchandising, etc. I dont even know what they get for a win these days. The OWGR are the rankings that matter. The Fedex even lists itself as some sort of differential, which I presume is based on money at the root of it, but I dont know how it works. If DJ and co are excluded from the proper tourneys now, whatever he wins on LIV will count for nothing, and whatever the rest win on the PGA will be devalued. Who is the best any more ? Who knows.
Finger crossed it falls flat on its face. The indicators are that other than have plenty of $, LIV doesnt know what it is doing.


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## RRidges (Jun 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well yeah, I think that’s the crux of the matter for a lot of folk. The money is coming from a state that appears to be trying to ingratiate itself into the western world but without accepting, or refusing to accept, many of the western worlds ways, i.e not carrying out mass beheadings, murdering and cutting up journalists, equal rights for women, gender and sexual recognition of minorities etc etc.
I suspect if Greg and his buddies had obtained funding from Switzerland or Australia for example there wouldn’t be such a ruckus…….but it’s coming from a rather dodgy regime with an appalling human rights record, who seem to think they can buy their way into legitimacy. Perhaps they can these days, as ethics, morals and fair play seem to be dwindling across many aspects of not just sport, but life in general.
		
Click to expand...

I think that's simply an excuse from the anti-LIV folk and an essential part of the reason the funding is so massive. After all, the European Tour's headline sponsor is UAR based DP World, and little is heard about the similar, if not quite so severe, human rights issues in that part of the world.
It hasn't prevented Newcastle FC from being bought by a consortium that includes the Saudi PIF!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I think that's simply an excuse from the anti-LIV folk and an essential part of the reason the funding is so massive. After all, the European Tour's headline sponsor is UAR based DP World, and little is heard about the similar, if not quite so severe, human rights issues in that part of the world.
		
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Not to mention the outrageous behaviour of them with the P&O situation which everyone condemned ..


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 2, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well yeah, I think that’s the crux of the matter for a lot of folk. The money is coming from a state that appears to be trying to ingratiate itself into the western world but *without accepting, or refusing to accept, many of the western worlds ways*, i.e not carrying out mass beheadings, murdering and cutting up journalists, equal rights for women, gender and sexual recognition of minorities etc etc.
I suspect if Greg and his buddies had obtained funding from Switzerland or Australia for example there wouldn’t be such a ruckus…….but it’s coming from a rather dodgy regime with an appalling human rights record, who seem to think they can buy their way into legitimacy. Perhaps they can these days, as ethics, morals and fair play seem to be dwindling across many aspects of not just sport, but life in general.
		
Click to expand...

The country is ruled by Sharia Law - the law prevents them from accepting the many of the western worlds ways - it's literally written into their laws!
I know it sounds batshit crazy to us, but it's no different to the laws that allow kids to buy guns in america, at an age when they can't buy beer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



*The greed* of the human being is hard to understand.
People with more money than they will ever need,for some reason just want more.
If DJ does sign I’m sure other big names will follow and it could actually take off.
		
Click to expand...

That plus the nature of the Saudi regime are what completely turns me off.  That for many it seems such things don‘t matter is no great surprise, but purely on matters of principle it’s not for me.


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## SteveJay (Jun 2, 2022)

If DJ and the like are being paid mega millions as appearance money, will they even bother too much about how they play in the event. They clearly don't need to compete for the prize money as its small change, even given their personal greed, and there is little "professional glory and status" attached to these events given the field (unlike the majors etc.).
Would be quite funny (and quite possible in my view) that DJ and co are nowhere near the leaderboard.........hopefully


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think it’s as simple as that

Faldo gave a good chat about it a while back and it was more than just money for players

A lot of moved to help them gain entry into the majors and they believed it gave them a better chance to compete in those US based majors - and it was prob a big reason why Monty didn’t grab one because he stayed n the ET more. They were going to be playing on year round courses

He also mentioned being based in the US ( Florida where most went ) helped them with getting established with sponsers to get into events etc

And then the key was the ranking points were always higher for the US players - chicken and egg scenario

The money came after but getting a PGA Tour card is what moved the likes of Rose , McDowell , Poulter , Donald etc forward

Gaining a future for them will of course be in their mind when young and looking to establish themselves in the sport

DJ getting £100mil to play in 6 events is just down to money , and same with the others at the later stages of their career - it seems nothing but money driven , it will give them a big balance in their account - and if that’s their sole aim now then it’s perfect for them.

What LIV should have done is joined with ET and worked through it that way to try and be on par with PGA
		
Click to expand...

That will explain why McIlroy is not playing in the Irish Open but is playing in the JP McManus Pro Am the following day, to get more world ranking points and move himself forward.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			That will explain why McIlroy is not playing in the Irish Open but is playing in the JP McManus Pro Am the following day, to get more world ranking points and move himself forward.
		
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How is that relevant to people moving the PGA Tour ? Rory always has a different schedule and ranking points at his stage of the career aren’t going to be an issue for him . 

JP McManus has done a lot of good for Irish golf especially with getting the Ryder Cup to Adare Manor and the Pro Am where JP uses it to raise over £100mil for local charities since it started ( 20 years ago ) and a lot of the Pros are more than happy to help out raise the money 

But I guess you can’t see pass the belief that Rory is just doing it for his own personal wealth gain 🙄


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How is that relevant to people moving the PGA Tour ? Rory always has a different schedule and ranking points at his stage of the career aren’t going to be an issue for him .

JP McManus has done a lot of good for Irish golf especially with getting the Ryder Cup to Adare Manor and the Pro Am where JP uses it to raise over £100mil for local charities since it started ( 20 years ago ) and a lot of the Pros are more than happy to help out raise the money

But I guess you can’t see pass the belief that Rory is just doing it for his own personal wealth gain 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Nothing at all to do with the accumulation of wealth and everything to do with Rory not supporting the European Tour, which of course, was my original point.


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## sunshine (Jun 2, 2022)

Yeah they’ve pulled it out of the bag this week. Looks like a decent field. I’m guessing a few weeks ago they only had a few has beens, and then PIF stepped in and threw more money at it to save it from being embarrassing to the Saudi sportswashing project


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## AussieKB (Jun 2, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			If DJ and the like are being paid mega millions as appearance money, will they even bother too much about how they play in the event. They clearly don't need to compete for the prize money as its small change, even given their personal greed, and there is little "professional glory and status" attached to these events given the field (unlike the majors etc.).
Would be quite funny (and quite possible in my view) that DJ and co are nowhere near the leaderboard.........hopefully 

Click to expand...

Is that like Tiger who commanded 1 million US dollars for appearance money for many years, to play in Australia New Zealand Asia and the Middle East as well ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 2, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Is that like Tiger who commanded 1 million US dollars for appearance money for many years, to play in Australia New Zealand Asia and the Middle East as well ?
		
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It's fine. Everything the PGA tour has done that was questionable is fine and the DP world tour aswell, so long as the money doesn't come in from the Saudis 

Oh wait....


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## AussieKB (Jun 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's fine. Everything the PGA tour has done that was questionable is fine and the DP world tour aswell, so long as the money doesn't come in from the Saudis

Oh wait....
		
Click to expand...

And of course Rory would never play in the Middle East.......and accept their money.


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## rksquire (Jun 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As Rory said - there are Real Tournaments going on this week at the Memorial and next Week at the Canadian Open where the fields are strong


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532028128264069120

Click to expand...

Fields are strong but the rewards are less.  This is exactly the reason why temptation will be hard to resist for many - guaranteed riches without competing against the best.

Rory, much as I love him, is really struggling with his narrative and position on this.  It's not 'dead in the water'.  DJ has flip flopped.  McIlroys not jumping up & down about the field, yet it contains his mentor, mates and Ryder Cup stalwarts - his defence of his PGA Tour (where was that loyalty for the ET when it needed him?) is flimsy and putting him in a difficult personal situation.  If he wasn't defending champion I doubt very much if he'd be at Canada next week.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 2, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for proving my point. 👍😉


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## rksquire (Jun 2, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Average world ranking of the players named so far : 304

Top 10 - 0
Top 20 - 2
Top 50 - 4
Top 100 - 16
		
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That's interesting - 4 Players inside the Top 50.  Without a ball being hit, LIV is already surpassing an established tour - a tour that the PGA Tour managed to destroy due to the promise of riches in the USA.  The ET tour this week has managed to attract ONE player inside the Top 50.  I know Jack's competition is up against it, but let's be honest the field for 80% of ET events is shocking.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 2, 2022)

rksquire said:



			That's interesting - 4 Players inside the Top 50.  Without a ball being hit, LIV is already surpassing an established tour - a tour that the PGA Tour managed to destroy due to the promise of riches in the USA.  The ET tour this week has managed to attract ONE player inside the Top 50.  I know Jack's competition is up against it, but let's be honest the field for 80% of ET events is shocking.
		
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There are only a few events on the ET that hold much interest for the majority, it's essentially a feeder tour for the PGA Tour these days.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There are only a few events on the ET that hold much interest for the majority, it's essentially a feeder tour for the PGA Tour these days.
		
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It always had been.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Nothing at all to do with the accumulation of wealth and everything to do with Rory not supporting the European Tour, which of course, was my original point.
		
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Rory has supported the ET many times including hosting the Irish Open a number of times - this time he is choosing to support charities 

And your original point was talking about just looking for money as opposed to “supporting a tour”


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Fields are strong but the rewards are less.  This is exactly the reason why temptation will be hard to resist for many - guaranteed riches without competing against the best.

Rory, much as I love him, is really struggling with his narrative and position on this.  It's not 'dead in the water'.  DJ has flip flopped.  McIlroys not jumping up & down about the field, yet it contains his mentor, mates and Ryder Cup stalwarts - his defence of his PGA Tour (where was that loyalty for the ET when it needed him?) is flimsy and putting him in a difficult personal situation.  If he wasn't defending champion I doubt very much if he'd be at Canada next week.
		
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If you’re only looking at rewards in terms of money then yes the Centurion event will offer that

But it doesn’t offer potential entry into the US Open , The Open , WGC events , give someone a tour exemption card etc - all which for a lot of golfers may well be a higher reward 

I don’t think Rory is struggling at all - he has been very consistent in his beliefs about the tour and not intending of entertaining it at all.


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## rksquire (Jun 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you’re only looking at rewards in terms of money then yes the Centurion event will offer that

But it doesn’t offer potential entry into the US Open , The Open , WGC events , give someone a tour exemption card etc - all which for a lot of golfers may well be a higher reward

I don’t think Rory is struggling at all - he has been very consistent in his beliefs about the tour and *not intending of entertaining it at all*.
		
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I don’t disagree at all, I always think he is honest in the moment.  He was honest when he was ‘not entertaining at all’ about the Olympics; about the Ryder Cup; both of which he now fully endorses.  He is of course also in a position of privilege, authority and leadership on the PGA Tour so to be saying anything differently currently would be ‘politically’ damaging.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 2, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It always had been.
		
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I'd disagree tbh, I remember as a kid going to watch the Car Care Plan International at Moortown in the mid 80's, I remember seeing Faldo, Howard Clark, Lyle, Torrance, Woosnam, Mark James could have been there, a lot of the big names in European golf, who are still household names today - a few major winners amongst them 

There's not a chance in hell players of that calibre would be entering that event if it were still running, they'd be over in the States playing in whatever comp was running on the same weekend.


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## Backsticks (Jun 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd disagree tbh, I remember as a kid going to watch the Car Care Plan International at Moortown in the mid 80's, I remember seeing Faldo, Howard Clark, Lyle, Torrance, Woosnam, Mark James could have been there, a lot of the big names in European golf, who are still household names today - a few major winners amongst them

There's not a chance in hell players of that calibre would be entering that event if it were still running, they'd be over in the States playing in whatever comp was running on the same weekend.
		
Click to expand...

And so they should be. The PGA tour is the first division. The World tour the second division. Its a very clear pecking order and works fine. The US has the Cornferry or whatever its called this year as a more localised feeder for US player. Those who graduate from the DP have no need to come back unless their form drops, they lose their cards, or they like to play their own country's open. That why the LIV is a meaningless mix that doesnt fit in with that first tier, second tier system. Lower rank players no longer really cutting it on the top division, those killing time until the seniors tour, and those who arent really interested in competition or achievement in itself, but simply earning maximum cash. Which is fine. To some its very much a job, so you turn up and hit the ball for the highest bidder. Others still want to achieve something and play against the best, so they will stay on the PGA tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And so they should be. The PGA tour is the first division. The World tour the second division. Its a very clear pecking order and works fine. The US has the Cornferry or whatever its called this year as a more localised feeder for US player. Those who graduate from the DP have no need to come back unless their form drops, they lose their cards, or they like to play their own country's open. That why the LIV is a meaningless mix that doesnt fit in with that first tier, second tier system. Lower rank players no longer really cutting it on the top division, those killing time until the seniors tour, and those who arent really interested in competition or achievement in itself, but simply earning maximum cash. Which is fine. To some its very much a job, so you turn up and hit the ball for the highest bidder. Others still want to achieve something and play against the best, so they will stay on the PGA tour.
		
Click to expand...

The reason the best players play on the PGA Tour is because of the money, not the prestige - granted that doesn't apply to some of the majors. If the LIV tour are prepared to offer enough money, for ong enough, they will draw plenty of those players over from the PGA Tour, just like the PGA Tour has done to what was the European Tour.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 2, 2022)

Not sure there's much to argue about any more, we're going to get a front row seat.  It'll all be played out in the next couple of years then we'll know whats important to the worlds best players.


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## evemccc (Jun 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And so they should be. The PGA tour is the first division. The World tour the second division. Its a very clear pecking order and works fine. The US has the Cornferry or whatever its called this year as a more localised feeder for US player. Those who graduate from the DP have no need to come back unless their form drops, they lose their cards, or they like to play their own country's open. That why the LIV is a meaningless mix that doesnt fit in with that first tier, second tier system. Lower rank players no longer really cutting it on the top division, those killing time until the seniors tour, and those who arent really interested in competition or achievement in itself, but simply earning maximum cash. Which is fine. To some its very much a job, so you turn up and hit the ball for the highest bidder. Others still want to achieve something and play against the best, so they will stay on the PGA tour.
		
Click to expand...

The only ‘prestige’ in golf is in the Majors….certainly no pre-teen is on the putting green dreaming of one day winning the Waste Management…. 🤣

Its clearly money that’s the motivating factor for pro golfers. Didn’t Phil and Tiger want appearance fees for the Ryder Cup years ago?

If money wasn’t the primary motivator outside of the Majors, then historically important events like the Italian Open, French Open etc would get better turnouts


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rory has supported the ET many times including hosting the Irish Open a number of times - this time he is choosing to support charities

And your original point was talking about just looking for money as opposed to “supporting a tour”
		
Click to expand...

No. I said this.......

_"I used to enjoy watching the best players playing on the European tour, but they all left for the PGA Tour..................for money"._

No mention of Rory there. If you could point me in the direction of where I specifically mention Rory and money I'd appreciate it.


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## 4LEX (Jun 2, 2022)

Another issue with the Saudi's is how eager the women were to gobble up prize money for the Aramco events when it was only a few years ago women were even allowed to drive there! Very little said about human rights, equality or sportwashing by the ladies. All they cared about was getting more money for themselves.

The bottom line here is everyone is a hypocrite and money talks. The field for the LIV event is better than expected but they've clearly thrown money at everyone to avoid total disaster. For those that are in, it's a great chance to bank even more with a small field. I won't watch it but it'll be interesting to see the fall out for those that tee it up. If it's a feeble 3 month ban then every single player will play in it next year, if theres long term bans it'll be amazing to see the legal battles and potentially a total split....


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The only ‘prestige’ in golf is in the Majors….certainly no pre-teen is on the putting green dreaming of one day winning the Waste Management…. 🤣

Its clearly money that’s the motivating factor for pro golfers. Didn’t Phil and Tiger want appearance fees for the Ryder Cup years ago?

If money wasn’t the primary motivator outside of the Majors, then historically important events like the Italian Open, French Open etc would get better turnouts
		
Click to expand...

Seve was the first player to want appearance money, and did not play one Ryder Cup because none was given, over time the reason was changed to say he was injured, now the players are allocated funds to be donated to their chosen charity, think that started in the 90's and Seve also supported the ET against a lot of pressure from the PGA Tour.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd disagree tbh, I remember as a kid going to watch the Car Care Plan International at Moortown in the mid 80's, I remember seeing Faldo, Howard Clark, Lyle, Torrance, Woosnam, Mark James could have been there, a lot of the big names in European golf, who are still household names today - a few major winners amongst them

There's not a chance in hell players of that calibre would be entering that event if it were still running, they'd be over in the States playing in whatever comp was running on the same weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Faldo Lyle and Woosnam spent most of their careers on the PGA tour.

Clark and James were hardly world superstars.
Torrance flip flopped between the two tours.
Those three were Major virgins.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 3, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Faldo Lyle and Woosnam spent most of their careers on the PGA tour.

Clark and James were hardly world superstars.
Torrance flip flopped between the two tours.
Those three were Major virgins.
		
Click to expand...

So my point stands then, if Faldo Woosnam and Lyle spent most of their careers on the PGA Tour, but still made the effort to appear at a relatively low key event in the UK, surely that demonstrates how over time the PGA tour has swallowed up the market for profesional golf, at the expense of the European Tour?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 3, 2022)

Faldo, Woosnam and Lyle only played the US Tour when they became superstars and not most of their careers.


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Faldo, Woosnam and Lyle only played the US Tour when they became superstars and not most of their careers.
		
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Superstars ????? maybe Faldo


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## BiMGuy (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Superstars ????? maybe Faldo
		
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Woosnam is a hall of famer. I’d say that made him a superstar of his day.


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## Crow (Jun 3, 2022)

And Lyle was one of the greatest iron strikers ever.


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Woosnam is a hall of famer. I’d say that made him a superstar of his day.
		
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2 wins on the PGA tour.....was a great player but superstar ? 
as for the Hall of Fame, that place is full of people who should not be there. e.g. George W Bush


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			2 wins on the PGA tour.....was a great player but superstar ?
as for the Hall of Fame, that place is full of people who should not be there. e.g. George W Bush
		
Click to expand...

He won 50 times on the European Tour and had 50 weeks as world number 1 - ranked 9th of all time!!

Be interesting to know what your parameters of golf superstar actually are ;-)


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He won 50 times on the European Tour and had 50 weeks as world number 1 - ranked 9th of all time!!

Be interesting to know what your parameters of golf superstar actually are ;-)
		
Click to expand...

At least 2 majors......minimum


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			At least 2 majors......minimum
		
Click to expand...

How convenient. 
😂


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## BiMGuy (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			At least 2 majors......minimum
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying at least means minimum.

One of the majors should have to be the Masters though!


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How convenient.
😂
		
Click to expand...

As Jack said anyone can win 1 but to win a second......
and I did say they were Great players but Super Star.....Really
so what do call someone who has won 4 or more....a Super Super Star ?


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Thanks for clarifying at least means minimum.

One of the majors should have to be the Masters though!
		
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The Masters has the weakest field of all 4


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			As Jack said anyone can win 1 but to win a second......
and I did say they were Great players but Super Star.....Really
so what do call someone who has won 4 or more....a Super Super Star ?
		
Click to expand...

So you class Harrington as a golfing superstar?


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you class Harrington as a golfing superstar?
		
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Mel Smooth said:



			So you class Harrington as a golfing superstar?
		
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No.....Great but not Super Star, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## Backsticks (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you class Harrington as a golfing superstar?
		
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Triple the suoerstar that Woosnam was at least. Succesfully retainin a major, and winning consecutive ones in a year, adds further distinction that eluded Woosnam.

Andy North will always be regarded as a bigger star than him too I guess.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 3, 2022)

Well at least we’ve concluded that Gregg Norman is a golfing superstar, and we can get back on topic.


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well at least we’ve concluded that Gregg Norman is a golfing superstar, and we can get back on topic.
		
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Agree with that....


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Agree with that....
		
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Sorry, I meant to say he is not, Australian but not World Superstar I my humble opinion.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Sorry, I meant to say he is not, Australian but not World Superstar I my humble opinion.
		
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2 majors, 331 weeks at number 1, 88 career wins (20 on PGA tour) 7 second place in majors

he was pretty good


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## evemccc (Jun 3, 2022)

Seve, Faldo, and Norman - the only golf superstars of that generation IMO


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			2 majors, 331 weeks at number 1, 88 career wins (20 on PGA tour) 7 second place in majors

he was pretty good
		
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Bleeding hacker!


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## AussieKB (Jun 3, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			2 majors, 331 weeks at number 1, 88 career wins (20 on PGA tour) 7 second place in majors

he was pretty good
		
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Yes he was great, but under achieved with his talents, should have won at least 2 more majors, 
a real Super Star would have achieved at least that.


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## evemccc (Jun 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Yes he was great, but under achieved with his talents, should have won at least 2 more majors,
a real Super Star would have achieved at least that.
		
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I’d take Greg Norman’s golfing achievements, ability, and brand presence with Great White Shark as evidence over his ‘golf superstardom’ > Koepka’s, or Padraig’s

Not all majors are created equal
An Open win at TOC or Muirfield, and winning at Augusta > a PGA at Bellerive


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 4, 2022)

Quite an interesting interview here from one of the lesser known players that will be taking part.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2022)

Looks like the new tour will become an 'early' seniors tour for at least a few years.
Not a bad idea to break through.
Cannot see the backers getting any return for their money, but do they care?


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## IainP (Jun 4, 2022)

I can imagine the shotgun start will likely add pressure to the practice areas with all the players trying to prepare at similar times - some large spaces may be needed


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## Slab (Jun 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			I can imagine the shotgun start will likely add pressure to the practice areas with all the players trying to prepare at similar times - some large spaces may be needed
		
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I wouldn't think so given the size of the field


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## Imurg (Jun 4, 2022)

Bet there's not room for 48 players, 48 caddies and 48 coaches on Centurion's range or putting green.....


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## Slab (Jun 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Bet there's not room for 48 players, 48 caddies and 48 coaches on Centurion's range or putting green.....
		
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Must be a goat track, we do 80 player shotgun no problem 🤣🤣


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## Imurg (Jun 4, 2022)

Kevin Na resigns from the PGA Tour.....


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## sweaty sock (Jun 4, 2022)

I wonder what resigning means, assume he still has enough points etc to gain membership, can he just re-apply for membership?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 4, 2022)

With just 8 events confirmed this year he's going to spend a lot of time doing nothing.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 4, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			I wonder what resigning means, assume he still has enough points etc to gain membership, can he just re-apply for membership?
		
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It means he can still play in the US Open without any interference from the PGA, unless of course the USGA want to take into account any disciplinary proceedings instigated by the PGA Tour. Given that he's no longer a member of the PGA Tour, that is more difficult.


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## Beedee (Jun 4, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			With just 8 events confirmed this year he's going to spend a lot of time doing nothing.
		
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He already does.  The average round time of the PGA tour has just improved dramatically.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			I wonder what resigning means, assume he still has enough points etc to gain membership, can he just re-apply for membership?
		
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what it does mean is that PGA Events will now be a lot quicker


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 4, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			With just 8 events confirmed this year he's going to spend a lot of time doing nothing.
		
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8 events plus the majors is a full year's schedule for Rory.


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## Imurg (Jun 4, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			8 events plus the majors is a full year's schedule for Rory.
		
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Mmm...12 Majors per year then coz he averages 20 events a season......


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## Bdill93 (Jun 4, 2022)

Just got 6 tickets for free for the first LIV event next week 😂 now do I go??


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Just got 6 tickets for free for the first LIV event next week 😂 now do I go??
		
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They are having to give out loads now but no one is buying them 😂


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 4, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Just got 6 tickets for free for the first LIV event next week 😂 now do I go??
		
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You might get a game....


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## evemccc (Jun 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are having to give out loads now but no one is buying them 😂
		
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That’s basically no difference to the Hundred or many ‘sold out’ boxing events


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## fundy (Jun 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are having to give out loads now but no one is buying them 😂
		
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turned down a free ticket to Lords yesterday and a free ticket today to Epsom. Holding out for the centurion one here


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			That’s basically no difference to the Hundred or many ‘sold out’ boxing events
		
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🤷‍♂️ Sorry not sure the point ?

the event at Centurion isn’t anywhere near being sold out


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## Bazzatron (Jun 4, 2022)

fundy said:



			turned down a free ticket to Lords yesterday and a free ticket today to Epsom. Holding out for the centurion one here 

Click to expand...

Plenty of the scabs are giving codes out to get money off on twitter. You might get one if you're lucky, you might get two if you're unlucky.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

saving_par said:



			You might get a game....
		
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Funny you should say that... ;-)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533093451650170880


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## IainP (Jun 5, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			With just 8 events confirmed this year he's going to spend a lot of time doing nothing.
		
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Clearly none of us know what's going on in the background,  but I can see some merit in his approach  - taking control and suggesting ,'you can't ban me'.
I wouldn't be surprised if he, with his heritage, has invites to play across Asia & Oceania which may not have fit the usual schedule. If raking in big $ from the liv thing then maybe playing for a small pot somewhere you've wanted to visit might appeal. But who know with Na, wonder if he'll play the Open this year.


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

A right problem with the shotgun start has been pointed out which I hadnt previously seen mentioned - players will not know the state of play everywhere as they finish out. No knowing what is needed. No knowing whether a putt is for the win, a playoff, or someone else has just holed a putt and cannot be caught. No victory fist pump or cheer from the crowd for a dramatic winner. Rather, a flat, maybe that will win or maybe it wont, from both player and patrons.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			A right problem with the shotgun start has been pointed out which I hadnt previously seen mentioned - players will not know the state of play everywhere as they finish out. No knowing what is needed. No knowing whether a putt is for the win, a playoff, or someone else has just holed a putt and cannot be caught. No victory fist pump or cheer from the crowd for a dramatic winner. Rather, a flat, maybe that will win or maybe it wont, from both player and patrons.
		
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Yeah, but there is a team aspect, and some teams might he wearing your favourite colour, which will really help you connect to them. That is what is important


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

Has there been any word at all on what the team basis will be. Is that not part of this weeks event ? 
How can they have teams when players participating is in flux ?
Will it be by nation, continent, alphabetical, random draw, or like the USPGA does, 'themed' by world ranking, majors holders, or a 'fat' team like they did with Lowry and I forget the couple that were with him that time.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Has there been any word at all on what the team basis will be. Is that not part of this weeks event ?
How can they have teams when players participating is in flux ?
Will it be by nation, continent, alphabetical, random draw, or like the USPGA does, 'themed' by world ranking, majors holders, or a 'fat' team like they did with Lowry and I forget the couple that were with him that time.
		
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Snake draft, so captains 1-12 pick a player, then captains 12-1 pick a player. That will take place on Wednesday night which I guess wil become part of the regular coverage.


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

What ? So a different team every week ? Which is effectively random. Thats not a team at all. Zero sporting relevance credibility then.  Maybe the strategy is to move towards gimmick reality TV type show rather than sport ?  Have they a fan vote yet, where a phone in can remove a shot from a player of their choice ? Or a celeb who has to hit one of each players shots on the 18th on the third day ? Mushroom power ups where you can move your drive 50 yards further ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			What ? So a different team every week ? Which is effectively random. Thats not a team at all. Zero sporting relevance credibility then.  Maybe the strategy is to move towards gimmick reality TV type show rather than sport ?  Have they a fan vote yet, where a phone in can remove a shot from a player of their choice ? Or a celeb who has to hit one of each players shots on the 18th on the third day ? Mushroom power ups where you can move your drive 50 yards further ?
		
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The most popular sport on the planet has a team that can change from week to week. Over time, the players change completely, but people still support that team.

The LIV team concpet is similair to that, but just condensed into a shorter time frame.


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

I doubt LIV would seriously make such a pathetic argument. They are seriously struggling for sporting credibility, and unless those in charge really have no feeling for sport, I couldnt see them making themselves look so clueless. It would make it look more and more like Redbull 'sport' and just pure showbiz.


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## PieMan (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Maybe the strategy is to move towards gimmick reality TV type show rather than sport ?
		
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LIV Island..............


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## Depreston (Jun 5, 2022)

James Wiltshire will be a host of the YouTube coverage


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I doubt LIV would seriously make such a pathetic argument. They are seriously struggling for sporting credibility, and unless those in charge really have no feeling for sport, I couldnt see them making themselves look so clueless. It would make it look more and more like Redbull 'sport' and just pure showbiz.
		
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I get it, it's not for you. "Redbull Sport", is incredibly popular - especially with young people, exactly what golf is in desperate need of.


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## PieMan (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Snake draft, so captains 1-12 pick a player, then captains 12-1 pick a player. That will take place on Wednesday night which I guess wil become part of the regular coverage.
		
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So basically like school playground football where the fat, ginger kid was picked last and forced to go in goal? I LOVE that idea! 

So the sh!ttiest player gets picked last with the captain rolling his eyes whilst muttering "feck" followed by "OK I'll take this fella. No idea who he is"!!!

I hope the draw takes place in a pub after 8 pints - quality TV!!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

PieMan said:



			So basically like school playground football where the fat, ginger kid was picked last and forced to go in goal? I LOVE that idea! 

So the sh!ttiest player gets picked last with the captain rolling his eyes whilst muttering "feck" followed by "OK I'll take this fella. No idea who he is"!!!

I hope the draw takes place in a pub after 8 pints - quality TV!! 

Click to expand...

Yep, that's pretty much it. Should be some quality banter between the players as they get down to the last few. 

Imagine then if the last pick has a storming weekend and helps his team win a few million. 

Sounds crap doesn't it ;-)


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## fundy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yep, that's pretty much it. Should be some quality banter between the players as they get down to the last few.

Imagine then if the last pick has a storming weekend and helps his team win a few million.

Sounds crap doesn't it ;-)
		
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genuine question? how much are they paying you and how many other forums are you active on doing the same?


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## fundy (Jun 5, 2022)

PieMan said:



			So basically like school playground football where the fat, ginger kid was picked last and forced to go in goal? I LOVE that idea! 

So the sh!ttiest player gets picked last with the captain rolling his eyes whilst muttering "feck" followed by "OK I'll take this fella. No idea who he is"!!!

I hope the draw takes place in a pub after 8 pints - quality TV!! 

Click to expand...


did you play well in goal Pieman


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## PieMan (Jun 5, 2022)

fundy said:



			did you play well in goal Pieman 

Click to expand...



Mate I was the greatest, fattest playground goalkeeper in the world!!


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## fundy (Jun 5, 2022)

PieMan said:





Mate I was the greatest, fattest playground goalkeeper in the world!!
		
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haha brilliant


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

fundy said:



			genuine question? how much are they paying you and how many other forums are you active on doing the same?
		
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I've signed an NDA so couldn't possibly say.


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## PieMan (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yep, that's pretty much it. Should be some quality banter between the players as they get down to the last few.

Imagine then if the last pick has a storming weekend and helps his team win a few million.

Sounds crap doesn't it ;-)
		
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Only if the last pick is Carl the Greenkeeper from Caddyshack............


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I get it, it's not for you. "Redbull Sport", is incredibly popular - especially with young people, exactly what golf is in desperate need of.
		
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Popular debatebly. But it is live action advertising, and not sport . But maybe that squares with a sportswashing agenda. Mickey Mouse sport, but when the motive is to get a message across and influence thinking, maybe thats what LIV is after.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The most popular sport on the planet has a team that can change from week to week. Over time, the players change completely, but people still support that team.

The LIV team concpet is similair to that, but just condensed into a shorter time frame.
		
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Can you even comprehend how people get connected to a football team ? It’s a team sport as opposed to golf being an individual sport - the only time people get connected to a team in golf is through geography 


Mel Smooth said:



			I get it, it's not for you. "Redbull Sport", is incredibly popular - especially with young people, exactly what golf is in desperate need of.
		
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1. What is “red bull sport”

2. In what way is golf “desperately” in need of it ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Popular debatebly. But it is live action advertising, and not sport . But maybe that squares with a sportswashing agenda. Mickey Mouse sport, but when the motive is to get a message across and influence thinking, maybe thats what LIV is after.
		
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Sportswashing isn't new and isn't going anywhere

Some of the world's top sports are corrupt to the core 

FIFA and uefa two prime examples 

Only last season Adidas dropped zouma (rightly) for kicking his cat but are fine and dandy with sponsoring the world cup in a place with awful human rights record

Dodgy money been propping up sports for years

Russian funded football teams

 Saudi funded events on the ET

only reason this is a step too far is because the PGA tour is putting out vibes that it will wreck golf, ban players etc

If they had all worked together and agreed release for 8 events, whoever wanted to play you would prob have 30 of top 50 playing and only a few mentions of funds.


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## Imurg (Jun 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Sportswashing isn't new and isn't going anywhere

Some of the world's top sports are corrupt to the core

FIFA and uefa two prime examples

Only last season Adidas dropped zouma (rightly) for kicking his cat but are fine and dandy with sponsoring the world cup in a place with awful human rights record

Dodgy money been propping up sports for years

Russian funded football teams

Saudi funded events on the ET

only reason this is a step too far is because the PGA tour is putting out vibes that it will wreck golf, ban players etc

If they had all worked together and agreed release for 8 events, whoever wanted to play you would prob have 30 of top 50 playing and only a few mentions of funds.
		
Click to expand...

So...because it's happening elsewhere makes it ok .....
A dozen wrongs don't make a right.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Popular debatebly. But it is live action advertising, and not sport . But maybe that squares with a sportswashing agenda. Mickey Mouse sport, but when the motive is to *get a message across and influence thinking*, maybe thats what LIV is after.
		
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You could argue the PGA Tour have done exactly the same thing in order to try and protect their own tour. 

If the Saudis wanted to draw people away from the topic of their human rights, they've failed miserably. Everybody that's gone over to the LIV series has been asked the question by one journo or another.

The LIV series being funded by Saudi money is no different to the billons of dollars the Saudis pump into international business, some of which ironically ends up in the coffers of the PGA Tour, in various different ways.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So...because it's happening elsewhere makes it ok .....
A dozen wrongs don't make a right.
		
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I agree, what brand golf shoes do you wear, what brand clubs do you use?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So...because it's happening elsewhere makes it ok .....
A dozen wrongs don't make a right.
		
Click to expand...

It only matters when it suits the agenda. Our entire government is funded by Russia but that's fine and dandy.


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## Imurg (Jun 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It only matters when it suits the agenda. Our entire government is funded by Russia but that's fine and dandy.
		
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I refer the Honourable Member for Havering to my previous statement......


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I refer the Honourable Member for Havering to my previous statement......
		
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Wouldn't quote him he is on bail banned from parliament ATM..


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So...because it's happening elsewhere makes it ok .....
A dozen wrongs don't make a right.
		
Click to expand...

It’s standard whataboutary trying to justify sportswashing


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Sportswashing isn't new and isn't going anywhere

Some of the world's top sports are corrupt to the core

FIFA and uefa two prime examples

Only last season Adidas dropped zouma (rightly) for kicking his cat but are fine and dandy with sponsoring the world cup in a place with awful human rights record

Dodgy money been propping up sports for years

Russian funded football teams

Saudi funded events on the ET

only reason this is a step too far is because the PGA tour is putting out vibes that it will wreck golf, ban players etc

If they had all worked together and agreed release for 8 events, whoever wanted to play you would prob have 30 of top 50 playing and only a few mentions of funds.
		
Click to expand...

I have no issue with the sportswashing element per se, and agree it is part of the world landscape of intertwining sports and politics.

But it only works when it maintains a sporting credibility. In moving towards Mickey Mouse sorting gimmickry, LIV has got this one wrong. The teams, being relagated to Youtube, conflict and forking with the wider pro golf world. No one believes it is for the good of golf, but dont expect it to be either. The likes of it claiming to be, again, just harm the credibility of its publicity, highlighting its nonsense as a sporting venture.
Serious question : why did they just not do a mega deal with the European tour instead of DP World ? Buy themselves a ready made tour, and then throw money at it to attract top 100 golfers and raise its level from the second division it is today.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I have no issue with the sportswashing element per se, and agree it is part of the world landscape of intertwining sports and politics.

But it only works when it maintains a sporting credibility. In moving towards Mickey Mouse sorting gimmickry, LIV has got this one wrong. The teams, being relagated to Youtube, conflict and forking with the wider pro golf world. No one believes it is for the good of golf, but dont expect it to be either. The likes of it claiming to be, again, just harm the credibility of its publicity, highlighting its nonsense as a sporting venture.
Serious question : why did they just not do a mega deal with the European tour instead of DP World ? Buy themselves a ready made tour, and then throw money at it to attract top 100 golfers and raise its level from the second division it is today.
		
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I think the DP tour would have been a better option but this is what we got now

They have aligned with the Asia tour no? So a 3rd division ready and they will invest in that 

I don't see YouTube as a demotion, YouTube is where things are going. It's huge. It's free to use and a money spinner 

Sky is great but it's behind a pay wall, free to air YouTube really makes it available to the masses 

How many people have smart TVs or ways to watch YouTube on TV now?

Their target audience does


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## JamesR (Jun 5, 2022)

fundy said:



			genuine question? how much are they paying you and how many other forums are you active on doing the same?
		
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If they are paying him, shouldn’t he be treated as all the other advertisers, and have his posts deleted?


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## sweaty sock (Jun 5, 2022)

Jumping back to another point from earlier.  I think the shotgun start could have its good points.  Every good player (sic) on the course at once, a true live leaderboard.  In theory everyone teeing off on the last with there opponents score known and the ability to gaige their scoring possibilities depending what hole they are on.  Potentially even heartbreaking / heartwarming cheers and groans from across the course to add to the pressure.  I can see it being a positive...


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Jumping back to another point from earlier.  I think the shotgun start could have its good points.  Every good player (sic) on the course at once, a true live leaderboard.  In theory everyone teeing off on the last with there opponents score known and the ability to gaige their scoring possibilities depending what hole they are on.  Potentially even heartbreaking / heartwarming cheers and groans from across the course to add to the pressure.  I can see it being a positive...
		
Click to expand...

Very much looking forward to how it pans out

Wonder what it would be like live .. shotgun start everyone finishing roughly same time.. great entertainment


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Very much looking forward to how it pans out

Wonder what it would be like live .. shotgun start everyone finishing roughly same time.. great entertainment
		
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As the series develops, spectators will no doubt follow their favourite team on the course, but throw in the aspect of a rival team on another hole with the potential to take the win, you could have two sets of "fans" cheering and jeering against each other. I know it doesn't conform to the golf narrative, but I think it could be absolutely bloody brilliant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Jumping back to another point from earlier.  I think the shotgun start could have its good points.  Every good player (sic) on the course at once, a true live leaderboard.  In theory everyone teeing off on the last with there opponents score known and the ability to gaige their scoring possibilities depending what hole they are on.  Potentially even heartbreaking / heartwarming cheers and groans from across the course to add to the pressure.  I can see it being a positive...
		
Click to expand...

The queue for the bar will be long once they all finish together -😁 

I wonder how the pros will view it , they normally like to have targets to aim for when playing , 

Also guess there will be a few gaps as there isn’t enough players to fill each tee 

The one thing Centurion does have is a great finishing hole but with the shotgun start you will lose that and also the potential final hole drama etc and not knowing who has won etc 

They are ok in a club environment where you want to get as many into the club house after the comp etc but I’m not sure in a pro event. Going to be tough to keep up the scoring and for the players to have their bearings. It will though reduce it to being 5 and half hours ( well Na is playing )


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As the series develops, spectators will no doubt follow their favourite team on the course, but throw in the aspect of a rival team on another hole with the potential to take the win, you could have two sets of "fans" cheering and jeering against each other. I know it doesn't conform to the golf narrative, but I think it could be absolutely bloody brilliant.
		
Click to expand...

You can’t manufacture team support and rivalry - especially in a sport where it’s dominated by individuals 

You aren’t going to have “rival” teams and fans 

It’s not a team sport regardless of much they will try and force it


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## Bazzatron (Jun 5, 2022)

Come on, absolutely nobody is going to care what a "rival team" is doing.


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## Imurg (Jun 5, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Come on, absolutely nobody is going to care what a "rival team" is doing.
		
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Especially when that rival team changes every event....


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## Bazzatron (Jun 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Especially when that rival team changes every event....
		
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I was over the Ryder Cup result an hour after it finished, and I've lived here nearly 40 years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Come on, absolutely nobody is going to care what a "rival team" is doing.
		
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How the heck are they going to get a “rival” team - even more so when the teams change every event 

People don’t even get attached when they used to do the World Cup of Golf 

and even more so when 90% of the team members will be unknown 

And finally I don’t see there being too many roars that will be heard over the noise of the M1


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## JamesR (Jun 5, 2022)

LIV golf, it’s golf but … ?
I don’t see how it’s different, except it’s got a poor field who’ve been payed to be there.
& just like Mel Smooth, they’ve been told what to say to advertise it!


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## PieMan (Jun 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can’t manufacture team support and rivalry - especially in a sport where it’s dominated by individuals 

You aren’t going to have “rival” teams and fans 

It’s not a team sport regardless of much they will try and force it
		
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Introduce free beer and get the "rival" fans to have a punch up!!

LIV Golf meets the Football Factory!!!

And all streamed on YouTube - awesome!


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## HeftyHacker (Jun 5, 2022)

I think the shotgun start will make for a great broadcasting spectacle but as a paying spectator it would be pretty frustrating losing that ability to guarantee seeing the winning putt drop on the 18th.

How will the groups be drawn for the final day? Will it be the leaders teeing off on the 1st so that they finish on the 18th? or will they be in their "teams"?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Introduce free beer and get the "rival" fans to have a punch up!!

LIV Golf meets the Football Factory!!!

And all streamed on YouTube - awesome!
		
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Get a bunch of the Millwall and West Ham firms there - get one team in Claret and one team in White and they can smash up Leverstock Green - prob make a £1mil worth of improvements


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## larmen (Jun 5, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I think the shotgun start will make for a great broadcasting spectacle but as a paying spectator
		
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Westwood and Poulter have tweeted out free ticket codes, and that’s just the 2 I have seen. Anyone knows if there are actually paying supporters?


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## Backsticks (Jun 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder how the pros will view it , they normally like to have targets to aim for when playing
		
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They won't care. Those who are interested in real competition and golfing goals won't be there, they will be on the US Tour. Anyone playing the LIV is just there for the paycheck, making it an exhibition event rather than a win of golfing worth. Which is fine for them, but also the reason it has no relevance to sports fans.


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## IainP (Jun 6, 2022)

Many pages ago, I stated that this format likely isn't for me.  However I acknowledge that people like myself, in the UK, probably don't hold they key to success or otherwise.
Certainly our friends in the USA seem to have a different relationship with teams and support.

Rory being candid as ever here.
Outside of the majors you do wonder about the rest of it.
https://www.financial-world.org/amp...sed-everyone-my-main-motive-is-money-no-but-/

Have never really liked the FexEx Cup concept myself.


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## evemccc (Jun 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Popular debatebly. But it is live action advertising, and not sport . But maybe that squares with a sportswashing agenda. Mickey Mouse sport, but when the motive is to get a message across and influence thinking, maybe thats what LIV is after.
		
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Although many things about this LIV golf sound pretty woeful to me, I wish some on here would apply their same critical gaze to their sainted PGA Tour — the status quo is very far from an ideal and should be deserving of scorn —- PIP anyone? FedEx? Players walking round as billboards and obligatory caps and the US coverage IS wall to wall advertising - as any listener to NLU from 2017 or so would testify 

It strikes me as similar to the football breakaway thing of the richest 14(?) clubs last year…..sounds pretty awful and anti-competitive and a big case of ‘pull the ladder up’ from the current richest clubs

And all the holier-than-thou criticism ignoring that UEFA’s Champs League has already evolved - and will evolve further - into something so far from the European Cup and equally deserving of criticism


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## Swango1980 (Jun 6, 2022)

I always felt the top of the game should be global. Maybe a bit like F1, where the Tour is played in a different country each week. Maybe an event every 2 weeks rather than every one week to give players more time to practice, travel, etc. On the week off, maybe play a lower tour event, or alternate with the ladies game week in, week out, so there is always something to watch. 

I suppose having a global tour wouldn't suit me so much, as it works well being in the US as it is televised in the prime time evening slot for me. But still reckon it would be better for the game.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 6, 2022)

Still trying to decide whether to go or not... If anyone else is tempted and wants a free ticket, drop me a DM, I have a few spare - cheers Poulter!


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## Junior (Jun 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			Westwood and Poulter have tweeted out free ticket codes, and that’s just the 2 I have seen. Anyone knows if there are actually paying supporters?
		
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Richard Bland and James Wiltshire were giving 100 tickets free aswell.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 6, 2022)

Junior said:



			Richard Bland and James Wiltshire were giving 100 tickets free aswell.
		
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So theyre all at it! 

Its free, might as well go watch!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			So theyre all at it!

Its free, might as well go watch! 

Click to expand...

How many opportunities are you going to get to see Garcia, DJ, Poults, Westwood, Oostihuizen etc, all for free?

If you can get there, and have tickets, just go.


By the time it comes round again next year, I suspect any freebies will be much more difficult to get hold of.


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

Yes, if you have free tickets and are in the area, worth going along. Its like a pro-am or golf clinic, the only reason to watch it is if you are on the spot, which is why anyone watching it is likely to be there rather than on a screen. Still worth seeing those guys hit a ball even if it isnt really a tournament, but the appeal will be very limited.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 6, 2022)

If I was nearby id go.  It'll be near indistinguishable from any other golf tournament, you walk around abit, see some players you think you know hit ball, then find a spot you like and watch some famous players go by.  All this with nearly zero appreciation if whats going on in the tournament as a whole.

If you care whats going on, watch on you tube, if you want to see live sport and better appreciate the foibles of the course, go to the venue.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, if you have free tickets and are in the area, worth going along. Its like a pro-am or golf clinic, the only reason to watch it is if you are on the spot, which is why anyone watching it is likely to be there rather than on a screen. Still worth seeing those guys hit a ball even if it isnt really a tournament, but the appeal will be very limited.
		
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I've obviously taken a keen interest in this series, been across it on loads of social media platforms, and I've seen loads of people commenting in it, and there is a HUGE interest in it. Granted it's going to get off to a slower start than they'd probably hoped, but by the time they've held a few events over in America, I expect the organisers will be finding their feet, and dialling out the problems, and we will be seeing plenty of people showing up at the events as well as watching on TV.

It's still very much a tournament, with a very worthwhile prize. Just because the field isn't stacked full of the the best crop of current golfers, doesn't mean it won't be competetive.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I've obviously taken a keen interest in this series, been across it on loads of social media platforms, and I've seen loads of people commenting in it, and there is a HUGE interest in it. Granted it's going to get off to a slower start than they'd probably hoped, but by the time they've held a few events over in America, I expect the organisers will be finding their feet, and dialling out the problems, and we will be seeing plenty of people showing up at the events as well as watching on TV.

It's still very much a tournament, with a very worthwhile prize. Just because the field isn't stacked full of the the best crop of current golfers, doesn't mean it won't be competetive.
		
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So much interest they are having to give away tickets because no one is buying them 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So much interest they are having to give away tickets because no one is buying them 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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Hence why I said, "it's getting off to a slower start than they'd probably hoped"


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## sweaty sock (Jun 6, 2022)

To be honest, we're probably a bit protected in the uk.  The only real tournaments we have are the open and recently the british masters, which are established and well supported.  Though the british masters was giving away tickets for a few years too.

If you look at the average day to day pga tour event, its pretty clear gate reciepts aren't paying anybodies appearance fees...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So much interest they are having to give away tickets because no one is buying them 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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There may be little interest or maybe they pitched the pricing way too high, they did imo.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2022)

I have sat back and watched this develop with interest and have reached the conclusion that neither side of this are ideal. As others have said, I would love to see high level golf played in a competition across the world. There are too many great courses and too many countries with an avid golf fanbase to think that a majority of the important events or events with high end fields should be limited to one country or even one continent. As such, the protectionist approach of the PGA that has ensured that other national tours remian in the shadows is not something that I am keen on. At present, everything else is a feeder tour for the PGA tour and that is not an ideal situation. That said, the source of funding and backing of the new tour is always going to be a concern that would make it difficult to support this new endeavour morally. That then begs the question as to who else could even fund a potential breakaway tour. Not sure any country or individual willing to back it with the funding necessary would be morally clean. 

It is a tough situation but i do feel that something needs to be done if people are to see golf played at the highest level globally.


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## Springveldt (Jun 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So much interest they are having to give away tickets because no one is buying them 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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To be fair, for a new start-up who everyone keeps saying is flush with money they really dropped the ball trying to charge people £65 to get in. They should have been giving them away for free from the get go to drum up interest.

Also, I've seen a fair few people say "there's no tv coverage, it's only on YouTube" like that's a bad thing. Broadcasting for free on YouTube is a massive plus in my eyes. Not stuck behind the SKY Sports paywall while giving instant access to everyone. YouTube is massive, it's a great place to get people interested in your product.

If it's true that the Saudi's have committed to this for 10 years and they keep targeting the top talent coming out of the US college system (like they have the US Amateur champion this year), it might be interesting in a 5 years time or so as they will have pinched 10-15 of the top talent coming through. If I was coming out of college and LIV are offering me $250K per start in a 48 man field with $3M for the winner or the PGA where offering me a couple of exemptions and a year on the Korn Ferry I know which one I would be taking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 6, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			To be fair, for a new start-up who everyone keeps saying is flush with money they really dropped the ball trying to charge people £65 to get in. They should have been giving them away for free from the get go to drum up interest.

Also, I've seen a fair few people say "*there's no tv coverage, it's only on YouTube"* like that's a bad thing. Broadcasting for free on YouTube is a massive plus in my eyes. Not stuck behind the SKY Sports paywall while giving instant access to everyone. YouTube is massive, it's a great place to get people interested in your product.

If it's true that the Saudi's have committed to this for 10 years and they keep targeting the top talent coming out of the US college system (like they have the US Amateur champion this year), it might be interesting in a 5 years time or so as they will have pinched 10-15 of the top talent coming through. If I was coming out of college and LIV are offering me $250K per start in a 48 man field with $3M for the winner or the PGA where offering me a couple of exemptions and a year on the Korn Ferry I know which one I would be taking.
		
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Those people, and there are plenty, clearly know little about viewing habits of the u'25's in particular, maybe even u'30's. It also ignores your point about not being stuck behind a paywall. Anyone can watch. people just need to adapt their mindset, as the young have already done.


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## Jason.H (Jun 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I have sat back and watched this develop with interest and have reached the conclusion that neither side of this are ideal. As others have said, I would love to see high level golf played in a competition across the world. There are too many great courses and too many countries with an avid golf fanbase to think that a majority of the important events or events with high end fields should be limited to one country or even one continent. As such, the protectionist approach of the PGA that has ensured that other national tours remian in the shadows is not something that I am keen on. At present, everything else is a feeder tour for the PGA tour and that is not an ideal situation. That said, the source of funding and backing of the new tour is always going to be a concern that would make it difficult to support this new endeavour morally. That then begs the question as to who else could even fund a potential breakaway tour. Not sure any country or individual willing to back it with the funding necessary would be morally clean.

It is a tough situation but i do feel that something needs to be done if people are to see golf played at the highest level globally.
		
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It’s a shame the European tour has turned into a PGA feeder. I went to the British Masters on the Thursday and it was so quiet. Great as a spectator getting close to the action. Such a popular sport in the uk but people need to attend and support it.


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## GB72 (Jun 6, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			It’s a shame the European tour has turned into a PGA feeder. I went to the British Masters on the Thursday and it was so quiet. Great as a spectator getting close to the action. Such a popular sport in the uk but people need to attend and support it.
		
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The problem as I see it is that the old stalwarts of these events are now past their prime and there is nobody playing in Europe to replace them to attract the crowds. The big names are all on the PGA tour now and clearly the PGA tour is not willing to share for the good of the global game.


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## Springveldt (Jun 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Those people, and there are plenty, clearly know little about viewing habits of the u'25's in particular, maybe even u'30's. It also ignores your point about not being stuck behind a paywall. Anyone can watch. people just need to adapt their mindset, as the young have already done.
		
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Agreed. My kids don't watch TV, they only watch streaming services, especially on their phone or iPad. My daughter has a TV bed with a 32" LG 1080p TV in it but lies in bed watching Netflix or Disney+ on her iPhone.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Those people, and there are plenty, clearly know little about viewing habits of the u'25's in particular, maybe even u'30's. It also ignores your point about not being stuck behind a paywall. Anyone can watch. people just need to adapt their mindset, as the young have already done.
		
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Even beyond that, I’m 51 and everything I watch is on You Tube, phone, laptop or through the Firestick on the TV. I know of plenty of people from my generation who do similar.
It’s been said before but You Tube is the future. They’re even trying to pass a bill in Canada to make it difficult for creators to air their content. You can guarantee that’s been instigated by the tv broadcasters.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 6, 2022)

I have to say I'm surprised how clean the pga have come out of this, they strip players from every tour, using money.  America's human rights record is hardly exemplary though admittedly slightly better than saudi..., and the way they've swallowed up the euro tour is frankly despicable.  They've plundered money from regimes worse than Saudis behind a laughable grow the game banner.   Anybody remember the 20 year deal they have with china that landed them in tax trouble given there charity status.... no? I wonder why....

I'm no supporter of the LIV.  But cant help feeling I'm only getting one side of the story here...


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## sweaty sock (Jun 6, 2022)

Just saw a potentially made up fact on facebook.

If the pga tour members are not allowed to play on LIV, then it may be impossible to classify them as independent contractors, meaning PGA tour would become liable for employee tax... 

As i say, facebook science so could be cobblers...


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			The problem as I see it is that the old stalwarts of these events are now past their prime and there is nobody playing in Europe to replace them to attract the crowds. The big names are all on the PGA tour now and clearly the PGA tour is not willing to share for the good of the global game.
		
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Too much of a disconnect between the real thing we watch on TV, which also has the advantage of being evening viewing for us, and  the lower division players on offer on the DP now. When the field quality was top drawer, in the days of Seve, Monty, Langer, Faldo, Woosnam etc, it was a different prospect. So DP up against it. Cant blame the PGA Tour for that though. They have their thing and are going to protect it. Tiger was the unstoppable trump card that ended it as any contest between the two tours. PGA Tour has no responsibility to the global game - no should they. And not sure that the global game, whatever that really is, is affected one way or another by its geographical concentration in the US. If anything, I prefer the time zone advantage and get to watch more of it at a time that suits me.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Just saw a potentially made up fact on facebook.

If the pga tour members are not allowed to play on LIV, then it may be impossible to classify them as independent contractors, meaning PGA tour would become liable for employee tax...

As i say, facebook science so could be cobblers...
		
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There is nothing stopping players playing in LIV events as independent contractors. Just they won’t be allowed to play on the PGA Tour again. 

The players signed up to the rules set out by the various tours. They know the consequences for breaking them. That’s their choice as an independent contractor!


The ONLY reason any of them are playing the LIV event is for the money. They wouldn’t be anywhere near it otherwise. I have no problem with that, in fact I’d probably do the same for the sums on offer. It’s the 🐂💩 reasons they are coming out with that I don’t like.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			There is nothing stopping players playing in LIV events as independent contractors. Just they won’t be allowed to play on the PGA Tour again.

The players signed up to the rules set out by the various tours. They know the consequences for breaking them. That’s their choice as an independent contractor!


*The ONLY reason any of them are playing the LIV event is for the money*. They wouldn’t be anywhere near it otherwise. I have no problem with that, in fact I’d probably do the same for the sums on offer. It’s the 🐂💩 reasons they are coming out with that I don’t like.
		
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Isnt that why they all turn pro and play golf though? Its always about the money... Yes some silverware along the way but the average tour pro doesnt win often do they!


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## pokerjoke (Jun 6, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Just saw a potentially made up fact on facebook.

If the pga tour members are not allowed to play on LIV, then it may be impossible to classify them as independent contractors, meaning PGA tour would become liable for employee tax...

As i say, facebook science so could be cobblers...
Potentially more reliable than this forum for true facts
		
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## Springveldt (Jun 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Isnt that why they all turn pro and play golf though? Its always about the money... Yes some silverware along the way but the average tour pro doesnt win often do they!
		
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Of course not. It's not about the money, they all just love to "compete". It's this competing that they love and the millions upon millions are just an afterthought. /s

I'd love to hear the real thoughts of the guys that are 90-125 on the tour every year scrapping for their cards. I bet they would love some silverware simply because it comes with a couple of million dollars and a 2 year exemption.


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## Depreston (Jun 6, 2022)

Was anyone up at Slayley Hall for that event?

shocked at the scores looks like it was tough!


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## BiMGuy (Jun 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The final leaderboard yesterday was practically all American. That isn’t good for golf, and if the PGA are trying to widen their net, there isn’t much evidence of it as yet.
		
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7 of the top 20 were from other countries. That’s not what I would call practically all American. 

There is nothing to stop anyone trying to gain a PGA tour card, is there? 

The PGA tour must be the most watched and recognised tour on the planet. Is it perfect, probably not. Is any sport organised perfectly? He’ll no.

And they play all over the continent. Which is about the same as the European tour playing in different European countries.


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## Jason.H (Jun 6, 2022)

Look at the LPGA there wasn’t many Americans in the top 20. The mens side is strong more to do with their college systems I guess


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## Bdill93 (Jun 6, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Look at the LPGA there wasn’t many Americans in the top 20. The mens side is strong more to do with their college systems I guess
		
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Son of my clubs owners is heading over to the states soon to start his US Golf College Scholarship. When talking to him, considering hes off +1ish currently, I think hes one of the "worse" players in his team. Insanely high standards of golf in the US college system


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## Jason.H (Jun 6, 2022)

Well there’s a big difference in that the USGA properly invest whereas England golf look and admire.


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## woofers (Jun 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



_*The ONLY reason any of them are playing the LIV event is for the money*_. They wouldn’t be anywhere near it otherwise. I have no problem with that, in fact I’d probably do the same for the sums on offer. It’s the 🐂💩 reasons they are coming out with that I don’t like.
		
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Of course it is, (Norman is saying it is a big money event that could change a young golf pro's life), and for most of the worlds population everything is ultimately about the money, it's why we go to work and how we spend.
Some of us though, care about where the money is coming from, others don't give a toss so long as its the right colour and denomination.
What next, The Columbian Series played at Medellin and Bogota Golf and Country Clubs, proudly supported by The Gulf Clan and friends of Escobar, in a guise to grow the game in South America?


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## HeftyHacker (Jun 6, 2022)

woofers said:



			What next, The Columbian Series played at Medellin and Bogota Golf and Country Clubs, proudly supported by The Gulf Clan and friends of Escobar, in a guise to grow the game in South America?
		
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DJ would be all over that!


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:
The final leaderboard yesterday was practically all American. That isn’t good for golf, and if the PGA are trying to widen their net, there isn’t much evidence of it as yet.
		
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BiMGuy said:



			7 of the top 20 were from other countries. That’s not what I would call practically all American.
		
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It makes no difference to golf how many are American. It is the elite of the elite of the professional game and has no effect on wider golf. And while it is not practically all American as observed, nor ever is - golf must be one of the most globally represented sports in the world - what it clearly is, is the best. Whoever can make it into that top division, and whoever can put themselves on the top of the leaderboard, has the opportunity to do so. So sporting credibility that they are the best of the best is unarguable. Which is the crucial hole below the waterline in the LIV venture. It is part second division, part players over the hill who are proven to no longer cut it at the summit, and a few others lured by the money. A grande melange of Kornferry/Champions/Unknowns/NeverMadeItOnThePGATour. Everyone knows, the real golf is elsewhere.


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

And spin it as they might, there is no question but that playing through Youtube is low rent stuff. Effectively shunned by the mainstream media, whether due to cost (hardly - it would seem they are turning down what would be free), political hot potato, not wanting to sour relationships with the established tours when they have no beef with them to begin with, or, just recognising that it isnt a genuinely competitive credible sporting proposition.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And spin it as they might, there is no question but that playing through Youtube is low rent stuff. Effectively shunned by the mainstream media, whether due to cost (hardly - it would seem they are turning down what would be free), political hot potato, not wanting to sour relationships with the established tours when they have no beef with them to begin with, or, just recognising that it isnt a genuinely competitive credible sporting proposition.
		
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I think most of the "spin" is coming from the pro PGA stance tbh.

If being able to watch golf anywhere on the planet on any device, is going to be framed as a negative to beat the series with, then they will never win some naysayers over.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 6, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Was anyone up at Slayley Hall for that event?

shocked at the scores looks like it was tough!
		
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@Maninblack4612  was there. Hopefully he will give his views.


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## garyinderry (Jun 6, 2022)

I was surprised to see an ad for LIV golf during the golf on sky.


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## Imurg (Jun 6, 2022)

Apparently there will be an imminent announcement that Phil and Rickie will be joining LIV...
Obviously not surprised by Phil and Rickie taking the money and running makes sense for him as he misses more cuts than he makes these days...


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## IainP (Jun 6, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			I was surprised to see an ad for LIV golf during the golf on sky.
		
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I was initially,  but then thought advertising is about who's willing to pay. Plus might be looking for options down the line.


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## Maninblack4612 (Jun 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



@Maninblack4612  was there. Hopefully he will give his views.
		
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Conditions were ideal, little wind, fine weather. It's a good test. Not surprised nobody really burnt it up. I think 65 was the best score.


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## Imurg (Jun 6, 2022)

Tiger, reportedly,  offered "high 9 digits" to join LIV 
He's turned it down....
The whole thing is just vulgar now........


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The whole thing is just vulgar now........

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Why ? I see nothing wrong with it at all. It is competition for the services of sportsmen between two bodies. On the one hand they will earn a fortune, play competitive golf, and have the chance to write themselves into the history of great golfers. On the other, earn an even greater and more secure fortune, simply have to hit the ball without any pressure or concern for their form or score, but forsake the thrill and drive to be true sportsmen and win. Some prefer one, some the other. To each his own. As long as the genuinely top rank golfers stay with the former, there is no disruption to the serious golf world, and the Harlem Globe Trotters/BuffaloBillWildWest circus can do its thing.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 6, 2022)

Welcome to the Fun Tour Phil.


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## Junior (Jun 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Tiger, reportedly,  offered "high 9 digits" to join LIV 
He's turned it down....
The whole thing is just vulgar now........

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If DJ was paid $150m (reportedly) then Tiger would have been way more given the pull he has.


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## PieMan (Jun 6, 2022)

How much does Phil owe the Saudi bookmakers????


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## Swango1980 (Jun 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Tiger, reportedly,  offered "high 9 digits" to join LIV 
He's turned it down....
The whole thing is just vulgar now........

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I doubt Tiger is looking for a big pay day. Hasn't done for years. Even when he was fit, he was very conservative about what events he played 

He has massively more money than he will ever need, and his brand is likely to continue making loads of money after he retires.

What is important to him will be his legacy, given how much he has won on the PGA Tour and all his Major wins. So, I can't see how any amount of money would make him potentially tarnish that legacy.


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## IainP (Jun 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I doubt Tiger is looking for a big pay day. Hasn't done for years. Even when he was fit, he was very conservative about what events he played

He has massively more money than he will ever need, and his brand is likely to continue making loads of money after he retires.

What is important to him will be his legacy, given how much he has won on the PGA Tour and all his Major wins. So, I can't see how any amount of money would make him potentially tarnish that legacy.
		
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Agree with the 'hasn't done for years' qualification. He was a bit of a leader back in the day...

"As with so many other aspects of golf, Woods probably settled that argument back in 2000 when he played in the Deutsche Bank-SAP Open TPC of Europe in Hamburg, Germany. Woods played for a reported $1 million fee, probably the first seven-figure appearance fee in golf history."

More than double the winners prize at the time.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 6, 2022)

Phil Mickleson confirmed, and reportedly given 200 million. Talking of Tiger, that is more than Tiger has won in his career on the PGA Tour (according to the reporter on Sky)


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2022)

Lots of talk about penalties/punishments for players that play in the LIV event. The flip side being people are claiming that if the players are punished/banned from the PGA tour then they are employees rather than contractors and as a result they would have to get employee rights. 

As I understand it, players sign up to play on the PGA tour, and as part of that they agree not to play on any competing tours. If a player plays on a rival tour then they have breached that part of their contract and are no longer part of the PGA tour. As such they wouldn't need to be banned as they would no longer be eligible for the PGA tour events. Or is there something that I'm missing?


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## Backsticks (Jun 6, 2022)

There is no way there is anything to see from Phil now that is worth a fraction of that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2022)




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## IainP (Jun 6, 2022)

Think most are missing the _big_ questions 😉
Will pros be able to play in shorts?
Can they use laser rangefinders?
😁


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## Crow (Jun 6, 2022)

IainP said:



			Think most are missing the _big_ questions 😉
Will pros be able to play in shorts?
Can they use laser rangefinders?
😁
		
Click to expand...

Will castle tees be allowed?
Will iron covers be allowed?


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## AussieKB (Jun 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Son of my clubs owners is heading over to the states soon to start his US Golf College Scholarship. When talking to him, considering hes off +1ish currently, I think hes one of the "worse" players in his team. Insanely high standards of golf in the US college system
		
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Their handicaps are mostly false, a player from our club in Australia went to Alabama, he had the worst handicap of the team but played number one, told me that most could not break par but were all plus handicaps.


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## AussieKB (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Tiger, reportedly,  offered "high 9 digits" to join LIV
He's turned it down....
The whole thing is just vulgar now........

Click to expand...

So it is OK for him to charge $1 million for appearance fees to play outside of the US, that's showcasing the game.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Great opportunity here now for the DP World Tour - or some of the others - to bolster their positions by picking up the players that have gone to the LIV series and are quitting the PGA Tour.

I guess they will all now play (alongside the LIV) as and when it suits them, when either the appearance money, or the prize money on offer is enough to tempt them.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Great opportunity here now for the DP World Tour - or some of the others - to bolster their positions by picking up the players that have gone to the LIV series and are quitting the PGA Tour.

I guess they will all now play (alongside the LIV) as and when it suits them, when either the appearance money, or the prize money on offer is enough to tempt them.
		
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Opportunity is there, but I doubt the big players will be turning up, the travel is horrendous.  Theyll be happy with the 7 in us, 4 majors, maybe WGC?

Smaller field fillers have no option, if the pga stick by their guns then you'd assume the pga is a closed door - saying that, it's a bit of a grind getting to the pga anyway if your outside the top 50...

I think given the demographic of the top players, a US base is too big an advantage to overcome...


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Opportunity is there, but I doubt the big players will be turning up, the travel is horrendous.  Theyll be happy with the 7 in us, 4 majors, maybe WGC?

Smaller field fillers have no option, if the pga stick by their guns then you'd assume the pga is a closed door - saying that, it's a bit of a grind getting to the pga anyway if your outside the top 50...

I think given the demographic of the top players, a US base is too big an advantage to overcome...
		
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Maybe, but the series will generate it's own stars in it's own right, these guys might be more than happy to pop up on other tours, instead of the PGA where they have been blackballed.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Maybe, but the series will generate it's own stars in it's own right, these guys might be more than happy to pop up on other tours, instead of the PGA where they have been blackballed.
		
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Thats a few years down the line, at the moment it looks very much like the BDO vs the PDC.  For the foreseeable future the LIV world champion will be a PGA also ran....


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Thats a few years down the line, at the moment it looks very much like the BDO vs the PDC.  For the foreseeable future the LIV world champion will be a PGA also ran....
		
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I just hope a relative unknown wins it, I want to see some random caddy walking away with more money than everybdody finishing outside the top ten in Canada.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I just hope a relative unknown wins it, I want to see some random caddy walking away with more money than everybdody finishing outside the top ten in Canada. 

Click to expand...

Interesting point about caddies. People are hung up on the greed of the players by playing in LIV. As has been pointed out, this is probably not true for many players, as they are not guaranteed having success on PGA Tour anyway.

However, for those more successful players, who have already earned a good amount, being on the LIV could be life changing for their caddies (and maybe others they enploy). So, some may not he making an overly selfish decision, but thinking of those they work with. If a caddy gets 10%, I think they are guaranteed anything from $25,000 to $400,000.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting point about caddies. People are hung up on the greed of the players by playing in LIV. As has been pointed out, this is probably not true for many players, as they are not guaranteed having success on PGA Tour anyway.

However, for those more successful players, who have already earned a good amount, being on the LIV could be life changing for their caddies (and maybe others they enploy). So, some may not he making an overly selfish decision, but thinking of those they work with. If a caddy gets 10%, I think they are guaranteed anything from $25,000 to $400,000.
		
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Of course, we tend to focus on the huge figures on offer for the top players - but some of these other guys will have had massive support from friends and family to get them into this position. I'm sure a lot of them are looking forward to being able to reward that debt of gratitude once the pay checks start coming through for them.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I just hope a relative unknown wins it, I want to see some random caddy walking away with more money than everybdody finishing outside the top ten in Canada. 

Click to expand...

Why?


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## SteveJay (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course, we tend to focus on the huge figures on offer for the top players - but some of these other guys will have had massive support from friends and family to get them into this position.* I'm sure a lot of them are looking forward to being able to reward that debt of gratitude once the pay checks start coming through for them*.
		
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Yea right


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why?
		
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Why not - plenty was made of how much Steve Williams made while carrying the bag for Tiger - it's a great story and good on him for making a fantastic living out of the industry. Some of the players on the LIV will only dream of making that kind of money - and they are playing - not caddying, so yeah, if a caddy who perhaps might be just about scraping a living can pick up a few hundred grand this weekend - then I'm all for that.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Yea right 

Click to expand...

Did you watch the interview I posted about Andy Ogletree earlier buddy. They aren't all the soulless mercenaries the media want you to believe.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Yea right 

Click to expand...

I think it is a fair point. Probably difficult for any of us to.put ourselves in their shoes. But, if I was a pro golfer then I'd spend nearly every week with my caddy. There would probably be a very strong relationship between us both, probably really good friends. A lot of the time a pro is interviewed about how they played, they often use "we" rather than "I".

If I was a very wealthy pro, I'd still think that if I went on the LIV Tour, that extra money may not be needed by me, but I'd feel guilty if I denied my good friend (caddy) the chance to earn a life changing amount. I'm sure any player will have discussed their decision to play or not play with all the people around them, especially their caddy.


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2022)

Right now, it seems there are two types of player involved. One is the player in their 40s who is no longer really competitive and is happy to cash in and see how the land lies in a few years when they get to Champions Tour age. The other is the young player who hasn't yet got their PGA Tour card and sees this as a faster route to big bucks. Whether that makes for an interesting blend or not, we'll have to see. I am not sure a battle between Kevin Na and Andy Ogletree is going to draw in the audiences.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Right now, it seems there are two types of player involved. One is the player in their 40s who is no longer really competitive and is happy to cash in and see how the land lies in a few years when they get to Champions Tour age. The other is the young player who hasn't yet got their PGA Tour card and sees this as a faster route to big bucks. Whether that makes for an interesting blend or not, we'll have to see. I am not sure a battle between Kevin Na and Andy Ogletree is going to draw in the audiences.
		
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And then there is a 3rd type of player. Dustin Johnson


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Did you watch the interview I posted about Andy Ogletree earlier buddy. They aren't all the soulless mercenaries the media want you to believe.
		
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I did. It was complete BS. The sense of entitlement was comical and was exactly what I referred to earlier about players making up their justification for joining liv. I’d much rather they were all honest and said they just want loads more money.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I did. It was complete BS. The sense of entitlement was comical and was exactly what I referred to earlier about players making up their justification for joining liv. I’d much rather they were all honest and said they just want loads more money.
		
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The guy has made 38 grand in his career, he'll make 3 times that amount guaranteed at the weekend. Loads MORE money? Mmm, maybe he just wants to earn SOME money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Thats a few years down the line, at the moment it looks very much like the BDO vs the PDC.  For the foreseeable future the LIV world champion will be a PGA also ran....
		
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It will stay that way - players looking to gain quick money and players who’s career in on the way down

The events will miss a key ingredient for many of the current top golfers - ranking points , the ranking points that get golfers into the majors and WGCs etc.

And I don’t see that changing much - also don’t think it will take long for the USGA and R&A to find ways to stop the players entering The Open or US Open



Mel Smooth said:



			The guy has made 38 grand in his career, he'll make 3 times that amount guaranteed at the weekend. Loads MORE money? Mmm, maybe he just wants to earn SOME money.
		
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He could have done that on the PGA tour - but he wasn’t good enough 🤷‍♂️


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The guy has made 38 grand in his career, he'll make 3 times that amount guaranteed at the weekend. Loads MORE money? Mmm, maybe he just wants to earn SOME money.
		
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He's only played 13 events and missed 9 cuts. If he wants a guaranteed income then he can either get good or get another job.

Edit: The amount of money in golf is obscene, but at least it's easy to see who is the best. With LIV, not so much as even flat last at an invitational event will be earning decent money.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It will stay that way - players looking to gain quick money and players who’s career in on the way down

The events will miss a key ingredient for many of the current top golfers - ranking points , the ranking points that get golfers into the majors and WGCs etc.

And I don’t see that changing much - also don’t think it will take long for the USGA and R&A to find ways to stop the players entering The Open or US Open



He could have done that on the PGA tour - but he wasn’t good enough 🤷‍♂️
		
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You are not good enough to win money on the PGA Tour either. Forgetting complications with Amateur status, if you were asked to play on LIV tour and get a minimum of £250,000, would you say yes?


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are not good enough to win money on the PGA Tour either. Forgetting complications with Amateur status, if you were asked to play on LIV tour and get a minimum of £250,000, would you say yes?
		
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Yes I would, and that would also highlight what a crock it is, if they are having comparative hackers on their tour.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Yes I would, and that would also highlight what a crock it is, if they are having comparative hackers on their tour.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. As a fan, I think it will be very much a gimmick to begin with. I certainly don't think the team format, shotgun start or 54 holes will have much impact on viewers.

However, what will be interesting is if they can fund it longer term. Right now, of course virtually all the best players in world will he loyal to PGA Tour, although there may be a gradual trickle across once players like DJ get pulled over. Longer term though, players retire, new blood comes in. Young elite amateurs will not have same loyalty to PGA Tour. Sure, many will still play in PGA Tour as that is where the best players still play. But, some will also go to LIV, some of who may prove to become top players. It would make the LIV tour more legitimate in terms of having quality golfers. Then the PGA Tour would have an even bigger fight on its hands. Especially as the LIV Tour will have had a few years to iron out the format, and some of the changes compared to the PGA Tour may actually end up working well.

After that, even longer terms, what happens? Presumably Saudi money can't fund it forever, and it will need to become self sustaining? Will it be able to compete, and beat the PGA Tour in terms of broadcasting and sponsorship money? I guess so, I'm sure China might start getting interested.


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And then there is a 3rd type of player. Dustin Johnson
		
Click to expand...

I think he is making a play to join the first group. Down 12 places in the OWGR since the end of 2021.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			He's only played 13 events and missed 9 cuts. If he wants a guaranteed income then he can either get good or get another job.

Edit: The amount of money in golf is obscene, but at least it's easy to see who is the best. With LIV, not so much as even flat last at an invitational event will be earning decent money.
		
Click to expand...

2019 US Open Amateur champion, played in the Masters, and no doubt devoted his life to golf. I'm pretty sure he's trying to get better, but if you were in his position, would you persevere through a tough spell, or would you sack it off to go and work elsewhere?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a play to join the first group. Down 12 places in the OWGR since the end of 2021.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but he is still only 37 years old and he is 15th best player in the world. More than likely he is just going through one of those spells of poor form, or maybe he is carrying a minor injury.  However, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he is no longer going to be competitive (and he certainly isn't in his 40's, which would rule him out of your 1st group for the next few years anyway).


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Grace, Sergio. Luis and schwartzel resign from PGA tour 

Can't be blocked from majors this year they have qualified

Sergio , Phil DJ qualified masters for life 

The tour has the us amateur champ in it 

This isn't going to die a death as quick as people want


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## sweaty sock (Jun 7, 2022)

The amatuer thing is a strong point currently, if i was the a top amateur and had the choice of playing for 250k last place, or 135k going to first place, with the last place getting more tv better sponsorship and better recognition... well the kornferry stands no chance really does it... imagine if morikawa, hovland, zalatoris, burns etc etc had dodged the kornferry and went straight to LIV, itd be a real competitor already....


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

What is the situation regarding world ranking points? Will there be any points available (albeit smaller than on PGA due to quality of the field), or are there none available at all?


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## garyinderry (Jun 7, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			The amatuer thing is a strong point currently, if i was the a top amateur and had the choice of playing for 250k last place, or 135k going to first place, with the last place getting more tv better sponsorship and better recognition... well the kornferry stands no chance really does it... imagine if morikawa, hovland, zalatoris, burns etc etc had dodged the kornferry and went straight to LIV, itd be a real competitor already....
		
Click to expand...


That option will only be available when theres room.  48 at present.  Once more bottom rung pros join plus more higher ranking men, the opportunities for those amateurs coming through will dry up.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 7, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			That option will only be available when theres room.  48 at present.  Once more bottom rung pros join plus more higher ranking men, the opportunities for those amateurs coming through will dry up.
		
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They can solve that though, currently the pga actively prevent good college and amateur players getting to the pga, the routes massively favour those already there.  The kornferry takes atleast a year and is so competitive its nowhere near a breeze even for the best amatuers.  It means the talent in the feeder tour is almost as good as the main tour, look at performances right out of the gate by Zalatoris, Periera.

LIV could literally phone a top college player, and they could be a millionaire tour player the next day.  They could do the same to a promising KF tour player.  In that future its the PGA that ages out not the LIV.


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It will stay that way - players looking to gain quick money and players who’s career in on the way down

The events will miss a key ingredient for many of the current top golfers - ranking points , the ranking points that get golfers into the majors and WGCs etc.
		
Click to expand...

I can see a lot of the top amateur/college players wanting to opt for the LIV option before going onto the PGA to earn money. (can the PGA ban you if you're not a member and have never played on it?) When you have LIV offering you guaranteed money or the PGA offering you a few exemptions to try and get a card before having to go to Q School for the Korn Ferry which you have to finance yourself it just makes sense to go to LIV. Also, if you are good enough to earn your card in 6 starts, imagine just how much money you could earn playing on LIV for a couple of seasons.



Liverpoolphil said:



			And I don’t see that changing much - also don’t think it will take long for the USGA and R&A to find ways to stop the players entering The Open or US Open
		
Click to expand...

Kinda defeats the point of being them being "Opens". Are they going to ban players who played in LIV events from entering qualifiers?



Liverpoolphil said:



			He could have done that on the PGA tour - but he wasn’t good enough 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

True but who's to say he still won't develop into a better player once he doesn't have to worry about money anymore?


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think he is making a play to join the first group. Down 12 places in the OWGR since the end of 2021.
		
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Not unless he has some sort of injury that will affect his career. He's just too good to not bounce back.


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## fenwayrich (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Grace, Sergio. Luis and schwartzel resign from PGA tour

Can't be blocked from majors this year they have qualified

Sergio , Phil DJ qualified masters for life

The tour has the us amateur champ in it

This isn't going to die a death as quick as people want
		
Click to expand...

The Masters is an Invitational tournament, so the people in charge can decide to 'amend' their criteria every year. Having said that, the history of the Masters reeks of inequality and a lack of moral compass, so there would e an element of hypocrisy in denying an invitation on the grounds that the Saudi regime denies vast swathes of people basic human rights.

I just hope this whole LIV business fails miserably. Every aspect of it, from a golfing and moral perspective, sickens me to the core.


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## rksquire (Jun 7, 2022)

Circular arguments aside, I'm actually looking forward to it starting - then we'll have something more solid to debate.  Despite the criticism of the field, the only interest I have in the Canadian Open is that McIlroy is playing; I've no interest in the Mixed Scandi Open (what a stellar field!) so as far as my weekend golf interests go LIV is top of the list (for positive & negative reasons).

From reading through the forum pages, it is quite interesting that it seems it only presents a threat (or otherwise) to the PGA Tour - the DP World Tour is of no consequence it seems to anyone.  Certainly looking at the scoreboard on Sunday afternoon past all the criticism of LIVs field could be easily pointed towards the DPWT.

I'm sure there's a way to know viewing figures, but I'd be interested to know how many viewers the DPWT gets Thursdays through Sunday - maybe a few hundred thousand? Good Good probably averages around 500k every 2 to 3 days for their Youtube content; Rick Shields close to 1m for course vlogs.  I've no issue whatsoever that the upstarts are using Youtube as a platform.  In fact, the BBC should have offered their broadcast capabilities.

Criticism of the field for LIV is understandable but hypocritical - a while back suggestions that Garcia, Poulter and Westwood were also rans and had no business playing the PGA Tour would have been staunchly argued, by some of the same people now asking why anyone would take a free ticket to watch to watch the likes of GMac, Poulter, Bland, Phil, DJ, Westwood, Garcia, Oosthuizen, Wiesberger, Schwarztel, Kaymer etc.

This Sunday, the 'winners' at each event (Scandinavian Mixed, Canadian Open & LIV) will be *$333k, $1.5m and $4m* richer respectively. Making the cut (if you have to) will mean the 'last' person to earn prizemoney will get *$4.6k, $19k and $120k* respectively.  Around 140 players will miss the cut at these events and earn *$0**.*

Of course only 2 of these events award ranking points..... but why would players not earning these points care? We've been told those taking part in LIV are nobodies so have no chance of winning Majors and the WGC events are really about money - the increased prizemoney compared to other events and the FED EX points (a sideshow that is about how much more money the highest earning players that year can get!).

Imagine Horsfield or Fisher or GMac (fingers crossed) winning.  What do you think, genuinely, with $4m banked before team shares are added, and with another 7 equally rich events to come, will be going through their head?  I'm pretty sure it won't be "I've made a terrible mistake.  I've won the Barracuda Open and this is where I've ended up, what have I done?".


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What is the situation regarding world ranking points? Will there be any points available (albeit smaller than on PGA due to quality of the field), or are there none available at all?
		
Click to expand...

There are no ranking points available


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## PieMan (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are no ranking points available
		
Click to expand...

Which will see DJ tumble down the rankings seeing as he's resigned from the PGA Tour!!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Circular arguments aside, I'm actually looking forward to it starting - then we'll have something more solid to debate.  Despite the criticism of the field, the only interest I have in the Canadian Open is that McIlroy is playing; I've no interest in the Mixed Scandi Open (what a stellar field!) so as far as my weekend golf interests go LIV is top of the list (for positive & negative reasons).

From reading through the forum pages, it is quite interesting that it seems it only presents a threat (or otherwise) to the PGA Tour - the DP World Tour is of no consequence it seems to anyone.  Certainly looking at the scoreboard on Sunday afternoon past all the criticism of LIVs field could be easily pointed towards the DPWT.

I'm sure there's a way to know viewing figures, but I'd be interested to know how many viewers the DPWT gets Thursdays through Sunday - maybe a few hundred thousand? Good Good probably averages around 500k every 2 to 3 days for their Youtube content; Rick Shields close to 1m for course vlogs.  I've no issue whatsoever that the upstarts are using Youtube as a platform.  In fact, the BBC should have offered their broadcast capabilities.

Criticism of the field for LIV is understandable but hypocritical - a while back suggestions that Garcia, Poulter and Westwood were also rans and had no business playing the PGA Tour would have been staunchly argued, by some of the same people now asking why anyone would take a free ticket to watch to watch the likes of GMac, Poulter, Bland, Phil, DJ, Westwood, Garcia, Oosthuizen, Wiesberger, Schwarztel, Kaymer etc.

This Sunday, the 'winners' at each event (Scandinavian Mixed, Canadian Open & LIV) will be *$333k, $1.5m and $4m* richer respectively. Making the cut (if you have to) will mean the 'last' person to earn prizemoney will get *$4.6k, $19k and $120k* respectively.  Around 140 players will miss the cut at these events and earn *$0**.*

Of course only 2 of these events award ranking points..... but why would players not earning these points care? We've been told those taking part in LIV are nobodies so have no chance of winning Majors and the WGC events are really about money - the increased prizemoney compared to other events and the FED EX points (a sideshow that is about how much more money the highest earning players that year can get!).

Imagine Horsfield or Fisher or GMac (fingers crossed) winning.  What do you think, genuinely, with $4m banked before team shares are added, and with another 7 equally rich events to come, will be going through their head?  I'm pretty sure it won't be "I've made a terrible mistake.  I've won the Barracuda Open and this is where I've ended up, what have I done?".
		
Click to expand...

The sooner the DP Tour get's on board with the LIV series the better it will be for their future. 

Let's all be brutally honest here now. The LIV series has knocked the DP tour into 3rd place in terms of interest. Right now, this week, the LIV is dominating the game.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The sooner the DP Tour get's on board with the LIV series the better it will be for their future.

Let's all be brutally honest here now. The LIV series has knocked the DP tour into 3rd place in terms of interest. Right now, this week, *the LIV is dominating the game*.
		
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It's dominating the news, but not the game


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Which will see DJ tumble down the rankings seeing as he's resigned from the PGA Tour!!
		
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Just seen that breaking news. It could start to make the PGA Tour look a bit Mickey Mouse. If DJ starts to show the top form he likely still possesses, the very fact he is not allowed (or felt he had to resign due to consequences) to play on the PGA Tour just diminishes from the quality of the field they like to boast about. It becomes an even bigger problem if other players start showing some quality golf on the LIV Tour.

Just seen that if a player finishes last in all 7 events of the LIV Tour, they are still guaranteed prize money of $1.5 million. I bet there are a few PGA golfers getting very twitchy at the moment, especially if they miss a few cuts in a row on the PGA.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It's dominating the news, but not the game
		
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Ok, Lets see where we are on Friday evening when the PGA Tour has an event running, and the LIV series has an event running.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The sooner the DP Tour get's on board with the LIV series the better it will be for their future.

Let's all be brutally honest here now. The LIV series has knocked the DP tour into 3rd place in terms of interest. *Right now, this week, the LIV is dominating the game.*

Click to expand...

Need to capitalise on this though. 

Event needs to run without a hiccup along the way and practise what they've been preaching!

I think World ranking points will come in time.. give it a year or so!


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## IainP (Jun 7, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Which will see DJ tumble down the rankings seeing as he's resigned from the PGA Tour!!
		
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https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/saudi-super-league.111261/post-2506019

Having seen the list of tours/events included in the rankings currently, if it doesn't make it into then that would perhaps suggest the committee isn't that independent


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Need to capitalise on this though.

Event needs to run without a hiccup along the way and practise what they've been preaching!

I think World ranking points will come in time.. give it a year or so!
		
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I think there are guaranteed hiccups and glitches, bound to happen in the 1st event. 
It will make for interesting viewing - player conversartions picked up on the broadcast, completely different format to what we are used to. 
Hopefully a few unknowns showing they have some serious talent.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think there are *guaranteed hiccups and glitches*, bound to happen in the 1st event.
It will make for interesting viewing - player conversartions picked up on the broadcast, completely different format to what we are used to.
Hopefully a few unknowns showing they have some serious talent.
		
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Cant be the GB news of the golf world though. 

With this level of investment id want the event running as smooth as a Rolls Royce 

I am certainly looking forward to attending the event!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

I'm going to try and contact one of these unknown players playing on LIV, see if they need a caddy for the weekend. I am only too happy to offer my services, even if they are likely to come last. As long as I get my 10%.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just seen that breaking news. It could start to make the PGA Tour look a bit Mickey Mouse. If DJ starts to show the top form he likely still possesses, the very fact he is not allowed (or felt he had to resign due to consequences) to play on the PGA Tour just diminishes from the quality of the field they like to boast about. It becomes an even bigger problem if other players start showing some quality golf on the LIV Tour.

Just seen that if a player finishes last in all 7 events of the LIV Tour, they are still guaranteed prize money of $1.5 million. I bet there are a few PGA golfers getting very twitchy at the moment, especially if they miss a few cuts in a row on the PGA.
		
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How would DJ showing form make the PGA look bad?

If he doesn’t win the the first event by a  good margin he’s going to look a bit silly.

And if he does win? Well, he beat a load of players that couldn’t even qualify for the KF tour. Well done!


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, Lets see where we are on Friday evening when the PGA Tour has an event running, and the LIV series has an event running.
		
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Ok  - I'll be watching the PGA tour

& for that matter, I'll watch on thurday, saturday & sunday as well.
HTH


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How would DJ showing form make the PGA look bad?

If he doesn’t win the the first event by a  good margin he’s going to look a bit silly.

And if he does win? Well, he beat a load of players that couldn’t even qualify for the KF tour. Well done!
		
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Because, if DJ shows he is still one of the world's best players, then the PGA Tour have effectively closed the door on one of the best players in the world playing on their tour. He doesn't necessarily need to win the first event. No player in the world is guaranteed to win the event if they were in the field. Great players can have poor to average weekends, poor players can have spectacular weekends. However, if he shows solid golf throughout, consistently high finishes and maybe wins the odd event, I'm sure many fans will not be so quick to rule him out as being one of the worlds best players still.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How would DJ showing form make the PGA look bad?

*If he doesn’t win the the first event by a  good margin he’s going to look a bit silly.*

And if he does win? Well, he beat a load of players that couldn’t even qualify for the KF tour. Well done!
		
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A bit harsh, anyone can win a golf comp! Its becoming more common on the PGA tour that prizes are spreading around a bit.


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## Redtraveller (Jun 7, 2022)

Is this actually on the tv anywhere? Or does no-one want to watch it?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			2019 US Open Amateur champion, played in the Masters, and no doubt devoted his life to golf. I'm pretty sure he's trying to get better, but if you were in his position, would you persevere through a tough spell, or would you sack it off to go and work elsewhere?
		
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People 'devote their lives' to many things greater than hitting a ball round a field, but don't get paid much either. Golfers win the US Amateur, play in the Masters and disappear into the 'golfing background' on a regular basis. Personally I like to persevere at things I like doing as the personal reward makes it worthwhile, but I suppose if the 'tough spell' so early on means he's just going to give up and chase the money, then it perhaps suggests he's not really after hte glory, just the cash - which is his prerogative.

I note Alex Fitzpatrick was offered a lot of money ($2m) , but after speaking to his brother and family turned it down. Fair play to him.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/alex-fitzpatrick-turns-down-dollar2m-to-join-saudi-league




			Matt Fitzpatrick's brother Alex has turned down more than $2m in guaranteed prize money to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series over the next two years, a Telegraph report states.

The younger Fitzpatrick brother, who attends Wake Forest University in North Carolina, was one of six of the world's best amateurs to be invited to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series, with the Englishman being offered starts in all eight events this year as well as 10 tournaments in 2023.
Guaranteed prize money for finishing in last place is $125,000, meaning he'd earn $2.25m at the very least, and likely significantly more, from the 18 tournaments if he did say yes.

His brother Matt, the World No.18, told the Telegraph that is was a "hell of a dilemma" and he is "pleased" Alex didn't accept the invites after discussions within the Fitzpatrick family.

“I’m pleased Alex did say no,” Fitzpatrick told the Telegraph. “It was a hell of a dilemma for him. He chatted to our parents and then to me. It was a big offer and, to be honest, difficult to refuse.

“It would have been easy to take it. We don’t come from a background where there was ever money like that. So tempting. But he looked at it, where the finance was coming from and what could happen, and decided to stick to the original plan.

“He’ll turn pro when it’s the right time for him and, if his ranking improves just a bit in these next weeks on the college circuit, he will go straight to the Korn Ferry Tour. I’m glad about that. It would have been weird if he was on that league, after I’d turned it down.”
Matt also confirmed that he turned down an offer to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series, which gets underway next month at the Centurion Club. “I didn’t even play in the Saudi events when they were on the European Tour. I’m happy with where the game is and where I am in my profession. You know, you have these ambitions and dreams, if you like. That’s all that inspires me.”
		
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Fair play to them.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Redtraveller said:



			Is this actually on the tv anywhere? Or does no-one want to watch it?
		
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You Tube
Facebook
LivGolf.com


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Redtraveller said:



			Is this actually on the tv anywhere? Or does no-one want to watch it?
		
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It's on YouTube where all the cool kids will be. Apparently.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What is the situation regarding world ranking points? Will there be any points available (albeit smaller than on PGA due to quality of the field), or are there none available at all?
		
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Last I read it hadn't been decided. Article here from mid-May, leaving it a bit fine, but then $$$$ so im sure they dont care.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-series-reveals-world-ranking-points-application


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

Youtube works for me (not a 'cool kid', far from it nearly 50 and as far from cool as you can get). Got a small Smart TV in the garage bar. Woudl not pay for an extra Sky or BT subscription to watch them in there but can easily cast my phone on to the TV and watch golf over the weekend. The more sport on subcription or ther services that I already have the better as do not watch enough to warrant the cost of BT or Sky Sport.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			It's on YouTube where all the cool kids will be. Apparently.
		
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i'd get distracted by recommended videos


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			A bit harsh, anyone can win a golf comp! Its becoming more common on the PGA tour that prizes are spreading around a bit.
		
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Not really given the depth of the field. 

This should be as exciting at watching a tennis tournament where realistically 3 or 4 people have a chance at winning. 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/gol...-2022-dustin-johnson/szucnnlb5gctqxc6vuspbfhc


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Perhaps, but he is still only 37 years old and he is 15th best player in the world. More than likely he is just going through one of those spells of poor form, or maybe he is carrying a minor injury.  However, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he is no longer going to be competitive (and he certainly isn't in his 40's, which would rule him out of your 1st group for the next few years anyway).
		
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It's interesting to see the ages of the top 20 players in the world at the moment....Rory oldest in the top 10 by 3 years.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

I wonder how many DP Tour players they approached before they asked Oliver Fisher ranked 979 in the world?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not really given the depth of the field.

This should be as exciting at watching a tennis tournament where realistically 3 or 4 people have a chance at winning.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/gol...-2022-dustin-johnson/szucnnlb5gctqxc6vuspbfhc

Click to expand...

Im sure people will turn in out of curiosity, but I dont watch many PGA events due to the field, so I certainly wont be watching this one. Which goes back to my point about LIV having to succeed by demolishing the PGA Tour's stranglehold on the game, or it failing completely. Otherwise, the result is just to water down the value of golf by some degree due to it splitting the player base.


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, Lets see where we are on Friday evening when the PGA Tour has an event running, and the LIV series has an event running.
		
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There may be an initial novelty value. Give it a few events and see how durable the interest in LIV events is.


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## rksquire (Jun 7, 2022)

As someone mentioned a few pages ago... they were surprised to see Sky run a LIV advert.  The monocle has well & truly fallen now that the banner at the top of this page is proudly advertising the anti-golf LIV tournament!  Golf Monthly has just exposed itself - happy to accept Saudi money, doesn't care about Golf integrity, only appeals to people who no longer have anything to offer to the Golf Monthly community, sold out just for money etc. etc.  

Only joking, it's still a fine publication and forum.  Probably.  Unlike DJ and the other rebels.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

Dustin Johnson resigns from PGA Tour.



			"Obviously at this time it’s hard to speak on what the consequences will be, but for right now I resigned my membership from the Tour," he said. "I’m going to play here, for now. That’s the plan. But what the consequences are going to be, obviously I can’t comment on how the Tour is going to handle it."

Johnson said he still plans on playing in the majors unless he hears otherwise. 

Johnson was apparently lured away from the Tour by an appealing offer. According to The Telegraph last week, Johnson signed a $125 million deal – although the length of that deal was not immediately known.
		
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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Well the team names are out and even I'm prepared to admit they're asboslutely shite.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the team names are out and even I'm prepared to admit they're asboslutely shite. 

Click to expand...

What are they?


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534141999498027008
Team names 🤣


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## PieMan (Jun 7, 2022)

If this event is on YouTube then surely LIV have missed a trick with not having Shiels and Finch in the field?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534141999498027008
Team names 🤣
		
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The "Cleeks" should be popular on here ;-)


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Sihwan Kim's new nickname - Hulk


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## PieMan (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534141999498027008
Team names 🤣
		
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Oh dear...........!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Redtraveller said:



			Is this actually on the tv anywhere? Or does no-one want to watch it?
		
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YouTube, which is free to watch and almost all the country have access to I believe 

Whilst sky is paid for and people can't afford it at least this is viewable for anyone with internet and a smart TV


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

Jesus H Christ.......is that really the best they could come up with?
Need to fund a decent marketing department...sod the golfers.......


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

This whole thing has to be an elaborate joke 🤣

Just need Ant and Dec to reveal themselves now.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The "Cleeks" should be popular on here ;-)
		
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being a large hook ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

I think they will hit their target audience nicely.. I guess their target audience isn't a load of people so keen on golf already they spend all day on forums talking about it 

🤷


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

What were the numbers like back in 2018(?) when the USPGA championship was shown online?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			being a large hook ?
		
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Play on words, some often say this forum can be a little cliquey - but let's not go there. People get upset.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			What were the numbers like back in 2018(?) when the USPGA championship was shown online?
		
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You had to sign up to that , to a rubbish provider who couldn't cope 

YouTube already shows sports for free, can handle it and people know it


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## Beezerk (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I think they will hit their target audience nicely.. I guess their target audience isn't a load of people so keen on golf already they spend all day on forums talking about it 

🤷
		
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What’s YouTube? 👀


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How would DJ showing form make the PGA look bad?

*If he doesn’t win the the first event by a  good margin he’s going to look a bit silly.*

And if he does win? Well, he beat a load of players that couldn’t even qualify for the KF tour. Well done!
		
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C'mon. Golf is hard. 

It's only 3 rounds as well. There are multiple people in the field who are capable of shooting 3 good rounds.


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## Backsticks (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			This whole thing has to be an elaborate joke 🤣

Just need Ant and Dec to reveal themselves now.

View attachment 42933

Click to expand...

That's pathetic. The sad thing is, the people behind this probably don't even recognise what a nonsense it is. It's like a corporate day team building bit of fluff.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That's pathetic. The sad thing is, the people behind this probably don't even recognise what a nonsense it is. It's like a corporate day team building bit of fluff.
		
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How many young people watch golf? Who are the future of the game 

When I was under 25 I found golf so boring I never watched 

Apart from keen golfers how many will watch it?

This isn't to appeal to the likes of the people on here who love golf, love the game. It's to appeal to the mass market who are indifferent


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## Backsticks (Jun 7, 2022)

That's why it is so revealing of how out of touch they are - "Let's have a team and call them The Crushers. That's really cool, and will transform golf's appeal. They kids will love it!".


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			People 'devote their lives' to many things greater than hitting a ball round a field, but don't get paid much either. Golfers win the US Amateur, play in the Masters and disappear into the 'golfing background' on a regular basis. Personally I like to persevere at things I like doing as the personal reward makes it worthwhile, but I suppose if the 'tough spell' so early on means he's just going to give up and chase the money, then it perhaps suggests he's not really after hte glory, just the cash - which is his prerogative.
		
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Maybe he needs to chase the cash to allow him a run at the glory? Mini tour players don't make that much and often rely on sponsors etc. The "tough spell" early on kills a lot of careers as people need money to live.



Barking_Mad said:



			I note Alex Fitzpatrick was offered a lot of money ($2m) , but after speaking to his brother and family turned it down. Fair play to him.
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/alex-fitzpatrick-turns-down-dollar2m-to-join-saudi-league
Fair play to them.
		
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I guess it's easier to do when you have a multi millionaire brother no doubt willing to help you out. He'll get a load of sponsorship offers just because he's Matt's brother.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many young people watch golf? Who are the future of the game

When I was under 25 I found golf so boring I never watched

Apart from keen golfers how many will watch it?

This isn't to appeal to the likes of the people on here who love golf, love the game. It's to appeal to the mass market who are indifferent
		
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I think inside the PGA Tour ideas like this (but executed better) would be a welcome change. On its own, I'm far from convinced it will work.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			I think inside the PGA Tour ideas like this (but executed better) would be a welcome change. On its own, I'm far from convinced it will work.
		
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For me if out of this it forces the PGA to change and host a few fun events like this.. more relaxed .. diff atmosphere etc along side their serious events .. why not?


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That's why it is so revealing of how out of touch they are - "Let's have a team and call them The Crushers. That's really cool, and will transform golf's appeal. They kids will love it!".


Click to expand...

Dunno about The Crushers but I love the Majesticks. 

These team names are so cheesy they might actually work. Getting complete Dodgeball vibes with these names, just need the teams to come running out to the first tee through a tunnel filled with smoke and all start jumping around high fiving each other.


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

I am guessing that this is not paid for in any way to watch on youtube. If so, seems odd to me that we have golf on a free to air medium that most people can access and that is seen as a negative point. I remember the outrage when free to air golf left terrestrial TV and how that was going to be a disaster for the uptake of the game, especially amongst the younger generation. Now we have free to air golf on a medium more likely to be used by the younger generation and that is a bad thing. 

I will watch it simply because I do not watch enough golf to justify a Sky subscription for it so this is perfect. May even motivate me to get back out on the course again.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			For me if out of this it forces the PGA to change and host a few fun events like this.. more relaxed .. diff atmosphere etc along side their serious events .. why not?
		
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I know a guy based in Florida who is adamant the PGA are looking to introduce 12 hole events.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am guessing that this is not paid for in any way to watch on youtube. If so, seems odd to me that we have golf on a free to air medium that most people can access and that is seen as a negative point. I remember the outrage when free to air golf left terrestrial TV and how that was going to be a disaster for the uptake of the game, especially amongst the younger generation. Now we have free to air golf on a medium more likely to be used by the younger generation and that is a bad thing.

I will watch it simply because I do not watch enough golf to justify a Sky subscription for it so this is perfect. May even motivate me to get back out on the course again.
		
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YouTube is huge I mean how much money does a (let's be honest) average club pro in shiels make from being on YouTube? He has cleaned up. I'm not talking millionaire but he makes a good wage and employs others 

Now imagine an event like this? Adverts .. sponsors etc 

So much money to be made 

Like you say.. free to air.. brilliant


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## r0wly86 (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am guessing that this is not paid for in any way to watch on youtube. If so, seems odd to me that we have golf on a free to air medium that most people can access and that is seen as a negative point. I remember the outrage when free to air golf left terrestrial TV and how that was going to be a disaster for the uptake of the game, especially amongst the younger generation. Now we have free to air golf on a medium more likely to be used by the younger generation and that is a bad thing.

I will watch it simply because I do not watch enough golf to justify a Sky subscription for it so this is perfect. May even motivate me to get back out on the course again.
		
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Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534141999498027008
Team names 🤣
		
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Is this genuine. I see nothing on the LIV website, and I saw the exact same screenshot on twitter, but by an unknown person tagging LIV


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			YouTube is huge I mean how much money does a (let's be honest) average club pro in shiels make from being on YouTube? He has cleaned up. I'm not talking millionaire but he makes a good wage and employs others

Now imagine an event like this? Adverts .. sponsors etc

So much money to be made

Like you say.. free to air.. brilliant
		
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Think he made £1.3M from YouTube last year alone. He's making more than most on the DP World Tour.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this genuine. I see nothing on the LIV website, and I saw the exact same screenshot on twitter, but by an unknown person tagging LIV
		
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I don't know, but Mel Smooth appears to be on the payroll, and he thinks the names are crap.
Also, Dan Rapaport is a known and respected golf journo'. So don't imagine he's made it up.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
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Just look at the 2 million Rick shiels followers who watch every single one of his videos

How many of them watch the golf? Aged under 30s a lot of them


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Think he made £1.3M from YouTube last year alone. He's making more than most on the DP World Tour.
		
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Wow. Didn't realise it was that much.. fair play tho he spotted a gap in the market, was laughed at by a lot (a lot on here aswell) and makes a good living for himself


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## LincolnShep (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this genuine. I see nothing on the LIV website, and I saw the exact same screenshot on twitter, but by an unknown person tagging LIV
		
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No idea if they're real or not but I can't see the team aspect of this taking off at all.  The team members will be different every time so no opportunity to build rivalries.  It's an odd part of the programme and I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with it.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Just look at the 2 million Rick shiels followers who watch every single one of his videos

How many of them watch the golf? Aged under 30s a lot of them
		
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He's right though 

i'm sure there'll be thousands of viewers on youtube but it will be substantially less than if it was on terrestrial tele


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
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Most people have smart TV's nowadays or a Firestick stuck in it. I've got 1 TV in the house (out of 5) that can actually tune into terrestrial TV and it's never used since that TV also has a Firestick in it. I'm betting there are loads of households just like mine. The Firestick is the defacto TV now, it has all the streaming apps on the homepage. YouTube is probably the most used app in the house.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534141387368812548


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Wow. Didn't realise it was that much.. fair play tho he spotted a gap in the market, was laughed at by a lot (a lot on here aswell) and makes a good living for himself
		
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Dont forget the podcast channel which now brings in additional viewers every week. 

Podcast avaliable via other methods too - all money to add to the larger pot!

Shiels will be doing very well for himself!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine there are less and less people who use TV that way now? When I was younger, sure, I would flick channels if there was nothing better on. I only had, at most, 5 channels to hop through. Now, however, I no longer do that. There are so many channels now, I don't even bother channel hoping. Either I know what is on and make a point of watching it (or recording it), or I miss it. Or, I just go on youtube and just start watching random videos. I'm sure many will also turn the Playstation or Xbox on, There are so many options out there to people, that just having some free to air sporting event on the BBC is unlikely to attract the same volume of people that it might have done 20-30 years ago.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			He's right though

i'm sure there'll be thousands of viewers on youtube but it will be substantially less than if it was on terrestrial tele
		
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Maybe that would be the real revolutionary thing to do. Give the hosting rights to national broadcasters. That would really screw the status quo if the Beeb etc were gifted the right to show live golf, and thr likes of Sky would have to reconsider their model.


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## LincolnShep (Jun 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
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Turning on YouTube on my telly is as easy as turning on BBC1, and I'm far from a tech junkie!


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Most people have smart TV's nowadays or a Firestick stuck in it. I've got 1 TV in the house (out of 5) that can actually tune into terrestrial TV and it's never used since that TV also has a Firestick in it. I'm betting there are loads of households just like mine. The Firestick is the defacto TV now, it has all the streaming apps on the homepage. YouTube is probably the most used app in the house.
		
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they do but most people will still find it easier to tune in via traditional means 

i'm sure if its successful they'll get a tv deal would be great if it was still free to air


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			He's right though

i'm sure there'll be thousands of viewers on youtube but it will be substantially less than if it was on terrestrial tele
		
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The Google-owned video service is on the cusp of overtaking the BBC as the dominant media source for 16- to 34-year-olds in the UK, with the average adult internet user watching 46 minutes of YouTube per day.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Dont forget the podcast channel which now brings in additional viewers every week.

Podcast avaliable via other methods too - all money to add to the larger pot!

Shiels will be doing very well for himself!
		
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Hats off to him. I like his work


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The Google-owned video service is on the cusp of overtaking the BBC as the dominant media source for 16- to 34-year-olds in the UK, with the average adult internet user watching 46 minutes of YouTube per day.
		
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I have youtube on all day, as I listen to music through it at my desk


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
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I thnk that is a slightly outdated view on how media is consumed. As an example, most people I know do not just switch on the TV and put something on. They watch something pre-recorded and saved on a planner. Cannot remember the last time I watched live TV, I even lag sporting events to forward through ad breaks.  Also, Youtube does not need you to go and find something. If the person has even shown a slightest interest in golf, it will probably show up on the front page of recommendations. I also suspect that it will be promoted and be a top of the page selection. Yes, there was an impact when BBC was one of 3 channels and so people would put it on to pass the time but I suspect that rarely happens now.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I have youtube on all day, as I listen to music through it at my desk
		
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How many years ago would people have said YouTube / steaming services would replace radio and buying CDs / iPods


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## Slab (Jun 7, 2022)

As a lifelong Iron Heads fan I'm looking forward to the weekend 


Gooooo IRON HEADS !!


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many years ago would people have said YouTube / steaming services would replace radio and buying CDs / iPods
		
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I've not bought a cd in about 10 years


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd imagine there are less and less people who use TV that way now? When I was younger, sure, I would flick channels if there was nothing better on. I only had, at most, 5 channels to hop through. Now, however, I no longer do that. There are so many channels now, I don't even bother channel hoping. Either I know what is on and make a point of watching it (or recording it), or I miss it. Or, I just go on youtube and just start watching random videos. I'm sure many will also turn the Playstation or Xbox on, There are so many options out there to people, that just having some free to air sporting event on the BBC is unlikely to attract the same volume of people that it might have done 20-30 years ago.
		
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This in spades. Most kids won’t even turn on a TV. They will watch on a phone/tablet/laptop, whichever is closest at the time.

We’ve 3 TVs. Only one has an aerial plugged in. They only one who watches any terrestrial TV is the wife. And that is only a couple of times a week. 

I can’t remember the last time I sat down to watch something on terrestrial tv at a specific time other than an England game.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I've not bought a cd in about 10 years
		
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I listen to Google podcasts in the car or Amazon music if I'm out of podcasts 

Again I can't even remember when I last bought a cd 

I threw my CDs away when I moved in 2014


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

we will find out anyway youtube shows the viewer numbers i'd be shocked if it hits over 50k


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			This in spades. Most kids won’t even turn on a TV. They will watch on a phone/tablet/laptop, whichever is closest at the time.

We’ve 3 TVs. Only one has an aerial plugged in. They only one who watches any terrestrial TV is the wife. And that is only a couple of times a week.

I can’t remember the last time I sat down to watch something on terrestrial tv at a specific time other than an England game.
		
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Same - but Love Islands back so thats me at 9pm for the foreseeable


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			This in spades. Most kids won’t even turn on a TV. They will watch on a phone/tablet/laptop, whichever is closest at the time.

We’ve 3 TVs. Only one has an aerial plugged in. They only one who watches any terrestrial TV is the wife. And that is only a couple of times a week.

I can’t remember the last time I sat down to watch something on terrestrial tv at a specific time other than an England game.
		
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Even what I watch on "normal" TV is via iPlayer or more 4 

Except live sport


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			they do but most people will still find it easier to tune in via traditional means

i'm sure if its successful they'll get a tv deal would be great if it was still free to air
		
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YouTube is the "traditional means" to the younger generation though. My 16 year old daughter wouldn't even know how to work terrestrial TV (and I've not had SKY in for about 5 years now either). She would be shocked if she had to remember channel numbers, she can't even remember her own phone number.

I WFH and I've got YouTube running in the background for a good part of the day most days. Well either that or golf podcasts.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			we will find out anyway youtube shows the viewer numbers i'd be shocked if it hits over 50k
		
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50k? really? 

I think it'll do that on day 1! Globally there has got to be more than 50k people who are intrigued enough to watch a few holes or to see how the start works etc!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			we will find out anyway youtube shows the viewer numbers i'd be shocked if it hits over 50k
		
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I'd be shocked if it's under 200k


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			we will find out anyway youtube shows the viewer numbers i'd be shocked if it hits over 50k
		
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I think you'll be surprised tbf.


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I've not bought a cd in about 10 years
		
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I don't even buy video game disks anymore. Purposely got the digital only version of the PS5. Last Blu-ray I bought was probably 12 years ago and I honestly can't remember the last CD I bought.

Only time I've used terrestrial TV in the last 5 years was to tune into Boris lying to all of us about lockdowns and how we were all in it together while he was getting pished every weekend.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

There is a live youtube test run on the Liv Golf channel. It currently has 13 viewers


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			YouTube is the "traditional means" to the younger generation though. My 16 year old daughter wouldn't even know how to work terrestrial TV (and I've not had SKY in for about 5 years now either). She would be shocked if she had to remember channel numbers, she can't even remember her own phone number.

I WFH and I've got YouTube running in the background for a good part of the day most days. Well either that or golf podcasts.
		
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Ozzie at work, his kids have never watched normal TV. He said it's great no adverts for him so never ask for the latest toy 

He says Netflix , YouTube kids and iPlayer


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## LincolnShep (Jun 7, 2022)

!!! Go NIBLICKS !!! 
I've been a *massive* fan of them ever since they were formed (about 20 minutes ago).


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd be shocked if it's under 200k
		
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That would be a good number i reckon i'll deffo keep an eye on it mind i could be well off on this. 

i still think it would get more eyes on tv though


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I don't even buy video game disks anymore. Purposely got the digital only version of the PS5. Last Blu-ray I bought was probably 12 years ago and I honestly can't remember the last CD I bought.

Only time I've used terrestrial TV in the last 5 years was to tune into Boris lying to all of us about lockdowns and how we were all in it together while he was getting pished every weekend.
		
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When I got my gaming laptop It had no cd drive I was panicking then remembered I don't own a single cd or even dvds now .. I spent a long week copying all my dvds to a data stick then gave them to charity


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			He's right though

i'm sure there'll be thousands of viewers on youtube but it will be substantially less than if it was on terrestrial tele
		
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I doubt that. They only have to stream to one service and the entire world can watch. Put it on TV and you limit the audience.


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I doubt that. They only have to stream to one service and the entire world can watch. Put it on TV and you limit the audience.
		
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Add to that people who can now have it on at work, drop in whilst they are out and about etc and it is a far easier method of watching.


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I don't even buy video game disks anymore. Purposely got the digital only version of the PS5. Last Blu-ray I bought was probably 12 years ago and I honestly can't remember the last CD I bought.

Only time I've used terrestrial TV in the last 5 years was to tune into Boris lying to all of us about lockdowns and how we were all in it together while he was getting pished every weekend.
		
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I've never owned a games console


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I've never owned a games console
		
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I'm still a geek at heart. Couldn't be without at least 1 gaming device.


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## Springveldt (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			There is a live youtube test run on the Liv Golf channel. It currently has 13 viewers
		
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I wonder if they will be brave enough to turn on the live chat for the streams.

That might be more entertaining than the event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many young people watch golf? Who are the future of the game

When I was under 25 I found golf so boring I never watched

Apart from keen golfers how many will watch it?

This isn't to appeal to the likes of the people on here who love golf, love the game. It's to appeal to the mass market who are indifferent
		
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Why do you think it’s going to attract young people and also people who don’t watch golf 🤷‍♂️

Who is this “mass market” that’s untapped


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

So the decent PGA tour events normally get around 3-4 million in the US alone for the final round 

do we reckon the first or final round will be anywhere near that on youtube of this event bearing in mind the hype and news stories etc


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you think it’s going to attract young people and also people who don’t watch golf 🤷‍♂️

Who is this “mass market” that’s untapped
		
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How many people watch events like the Ryder cup but not normal events ? Shorter formats. Easier viewing.

I watch 5-6 events a year 

4 majors 
Players
Ryder cup 

And I love golf 

I will be watching this.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			So the decent PGA tour events normally get around 3-4 million in the US alone for the final round

do we reckon the first or final round will be anywhere near that on youtube of this event bearing in mind the hype and news stories etc
		
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How many viewers would you consider a success?


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you think it’s going to attract young people and also people who don’t watch golf 🤷‍♂️

Who is this “mass market” that’s untapped
		
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I guess the same untapped market that many claimed were being abandonned when the Open went on to Sky thus depriving us of the next generation of young golfers who would have been weaned on the game on the BBC. Point is that I do not get the argument. This weekend there is more golf on various media, some on a media that is available to a large majority of people and that anyone, golfer, non golfer, fan or not, young or old have access to. Not really sure how that is in any way a bad thing.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many viewers would you consider a success?
		
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anything over 100k i reckon 

i have absolutely no idea tbh its hard to gauge with it being in the UK... it starts 9am ET over in America so not a great time for viewership over there


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you think it’s going to attract young people and also people who don’t watch golf 🤷‍♂️

Who is this “mass market” that’s untapped
		
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I go to T20 cricket once or twice a year but never been or will go to a test match.

Its that same market but in golf. Those that want a quick hit of entertainment with sport at the centre of it, but not something that drags on for days.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			anything over 100k i reckon

i have absolutely no idea tbh its hard to gauge with it being in the UK... it starts 9am ET over in America so not a great time for viewership over there
		
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I wouldn't be surprised if it's followed not just live but watched on YouTube after the event say a 30 min sum up


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I go to T20 cricket once or twice a year but never been or will go to a test match.

Its that same market but in golf. Those that want a quick hit of entertainment with sport at the centre of it, but not something that drags on for days.
		
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then create a 9 hole course with every hole a 330 yard par 4 and holes the size of basketball hoops 

T20 and Test cricket are completely different versions of the game with shorter boundaries fielding restrictions etc 

this is still the same sport that will take 4-5 hours i reckon for 3 days


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			then create a 9 hole course with every hole a 330 yard par 4 and holes the size of basketball hoops

T20 and Test cricket are completely different versions of the game with shorter boundaries fielding restrictions etc

this is still the same sport that will take 4-5 hours i reckon for 3 days
		
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But it is shorter. It's not 72 holes it's 54

Very different


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534157156571824131
Was allowed back in without the bonesaw treatment thank god


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many people watch events like the Ryder cup but not normal events ? Shorter formats. Easier viewing.

I watch 5-6 events a year

4 majors
Players
Ryder cup

And I love golf

I will be watching this.
		
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So it’s still just golf fans then ? No “new” audience


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But it is shorter. It's not 72 holes it's 54

Very different
		
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So it drags on for 3 days rather than 4.....in the grand scheme of things that isn't a milestone...if it was a one day thing then that would equate to the difference between Test Cricket and T20...


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So it drags on for 3 days rather than 4.....in the grand scheme of things that isn't a milestone...if it was a one day thing then that would equate to the difference between Test Cricket and T20...
		
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yeah more like t20 v ODI same game just an extra 60 overs


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But it is shorter. It's not 72 holes it's 54

Very different
		
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Does that make any difference to how it’s watched on TV? They can still only show one shot at a time, and it will still take 4 or 5 hours to complete each round.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

I’m just a bit shocked that Tiger isn’t teeing it up at 9am ET in the RBC Canadian Open 


I bet they asked


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Does that make any difference to how it’s watched on TV? They can still only show one shot at a time, and it will still take 4 or 5 hours to complete each round.
		
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5 hours to complete the entire field tho rather than how many hours normally?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s still just golf fans then ? No “new” audience
		
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Look if you want to have a reasonable debate leave the negative one sided already formed opinion at the door and come with an open mind and not loaded questions.

Otherwise feel free to explore the rest of the forum and leave others to enjoy something for once.


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Does that make any difference to how it’s watched on TV? They can still only show one shot at a time, and it will still take 4 or 5 hours to complete each round.
		
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I guess it will make some difference in that you will have a full course to show coverage of. That may help early and late in the rounds when a triaditional start may be struggling for coverage with only a few groups to show. It could, and I emphasise could, make for more exciting coverage more akin to the middle of a round in a traditional tournament when coverage can flip from one bit of action to another as things develop on the course. This could happen from the start to the finish rather than just in the middle when the course is full in a traditional tournament.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I guess it will make some difference in that you will have a full course to show coverage of. That may help early and late in the rounds when a triaditional start may be struggling for coverage with only a few groups to show. It could, and I emphasise could, make for more exciting coverage more akin to the middle of a round in a traditional tournament when coverage can flip from one bit of action to another as things develop on the course. This could happen from the start to the finish rather than just in the middle when the course is full in a traditional tournament.
		
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And the end of a major last few holes when you see endless repeats of tigers chip or adverts constantly because the players are all but finished and it takes time to walk to a ball 

There will always be a shot going on


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## Bdill93 (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I guess it will make some difference in that you will have a full course to show coverage of. That may help early and late in the rounds when a triaditional start may be struggling for coverage with only a few groups to show. It could, and I emphasise could, make for more exciting coverage more akin to the middle of a round in a traditional tournament when coverage can flip from one bit of action to another as things develop on the course. This could happen from the start to the finish rather than just in the middle when the course is full in a traditional tournament.
		
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Exactly this. From 2pm until around 6.30pm there will be golf on every hole on the course. Thats a tiny window in comparison to the average tour event. 

You get to see people playing "the great holes" all the time, not just when the leading group get to it.

Very interesting to me anyway!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s still just golf fans then ? No “new” audience
		
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Every audience is always "new". With millions of golf fans, the overall audience is constantly refreshed. Some leave as they no longer enjoy the game, or pass away. New ones join, often younger people or people just getting into the sport. It is the cycle of life.

So, the question is, will LIV golf increase that audience more than it generally was already, do nothing or decrease it? I was certainly sceptical at first, with the novelty nature of it and lack of depth in the field. However, 48 pages into this thread, and it has certainly sparked a lot of interest amongst us. Even the ones that hate the idea feel interested enough to express that opinion, and in some respects any publicity is good publicity at this stage for it. Now that DJ has signed up, and some pretty big name "has beens", it certainly adds intrigue. The politics with the PGA is interesting, with the likes of DJ withdrawing their membership. I think this fight between the PGA and LIV could be brilliant for LIV, as it will keep them front page news on the golfing headlines.

Youtube could well make it more accessible to younger fans. They'll still need probably need to get that spark for golf from somewhere else, like their parents or family getting them into the game. But, once that happens, they can then just watch golf on youtube on their TV, phones, etc for free. Mind you, if LIV takes off, is it just a matter of time before the likes of Sky offer them millions to broadcast it?


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s still just golf fans then ? No “new” audience
		
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Bit lost here, can you clear up what the point is that you are making. Is it that golf coverage on a free to air media should not be tried as it will not attract new audiences. Is it that golf on a social media platform would not work in attracting new audiences so should not be tried. Is it that new formats of golf are bound to fail to attract new audiences so shoudl not be tried. Is it that golf should only be played on the recognised tours. 

From my point of view, there is golf on TV this weekend on a free to air medium that I can watch and that is good enough for me. I can see the argument about the funding source, hell I can even see an argument about diluting a product by removing elements from the main tour but from a pure viewing perspective, having a sport on any form of medium can only do more good than harm even if it only brings back lapsed golf watchers like me.


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## IainP (Jun 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			He's right though

i'm sure there'll be thousands of viewers on youtube but it will be substantially less than if it was on terrestrial tele
		
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Perhaps you are thinking about this with a 'UK lens' only? Many countries don't have terrestrial tv.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Questions:

1. Shotgun start: Whose opening drive will they choose to show? My money is on Dustin. Second option is Phil. They will probably ask Dustin to tee off first in his group, Phil 4th, so they can definitely show both. If they were both 1st to tee off, they'd have a dilemma on whose drive to show.

2. Do teams play in the same group (groups of 4). I'm guessing they will. Therefore, groups of 4 and probably longer rounds? (PGA is groups of 3 in opening days, groups of 2 at weekend)

3. If 2 or 3 players are tied going into the last hole, or close, will the broadcasters panic about whose shot they will show? You could have 2 or 3 players putting at the same time for the potential win. Commentators usually love to build the shot up, and discuss what is going through the players head as they walk down the fairway / circle the putt to size it up. There will probably be little of that with this happening with multiple golfers at the same time on different holes.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2022)

Should be fun watching everyone pile up behind Kevin Na


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Every audience is always "new". With millions of golf fans, the overall audience is constantly refreshed. Some leave as they no longer enjoy the game, or pass away. New ones join, often younger people or people just getting into the sport. It is the cycle of life.

So, the question is, will LIV golf increase that audience more than it generally was already, do nothing or decrease it? I was certainly sceptical at first, with the novelty nature of it and lack of depth in the field. However, 48 pages into this thread, and it has certainly sparked a lot of interest amongst us. Even the ones that hate the idea feel interested enough to express that opinion, and in some respects any publicity is good publicity at this stage for it. Now that DJ has signed up, and some pretty big name "has beens", it certainly adds intrigue. The politics with the PGA is interesting, with the likes of DJ withdrawing their membership. I think this fight between the PGA and LIV could be brilliant for LIV, as it will keep them front page news on the golfing headlines.

Youtube could well make it more accessible to younger fans. They'll still need probably need to get that spark for golf from somewhere else, like their parents or family getting them into the game. But, once that happens, they can then just watch golf on youtube on their TV, phones, etc for free. Mind you, if LIV takes off, is it just a matter of time before the likes of Sky offer them millions to broadcast it?
		
Click to expand...

I've been talking to a few today about it. Someone was and is still dead against it morally but he is at least past the bit of just shouting sportswashing in the debate (much like fake news) and was interested how it will play out. He is a golf purest so it's not really for him anyways 

Another I spoke to when he heard YouTube. Shot gun starts and 3 days he said wow that's going to make it so much easier to commit to following


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Perhaps you are thinking about this with a 'UK lens' only? Many countries don't have terrestrial tv.
		
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Aye true


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Should be fun watching everyone pile up behind Kevin Na
		
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Fair point well made. On the other hand, perhaps a chance for the rules officials on this tour to take this by the scruff of the neck and start enforcing time penalites. Great way to make a few positive headlines by taking the sort of action that the PGA tour have been asked to take for years.


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions:

1. Shotgun start: Whose opening drive will they choose to show? My money is on Dustin. Second option is Phil. They will probably ask Dustin to tee off first in his group, Phil 4th, so they can definitely show both. If they were both 1st to tee off, they'd have a dilemma on whose drive to show.

2. Do teams play in the same group (groups of 4). I'm guessing they will. Therefore, groups of 4 and probably longer rounds? (PGA is groups of 3 in opening days, groups of 2 at weekend)

3. If 2 or 3 players are tied going into the last hole, or close, will the broadcasters panic about whose shot they will show? You could have 2 or 3 players putting at the same time for the potential win. Commentators usually love to build the shot up, and discuss what is going through the players head as they walk down the fairway / circle the putt to size it up. There will probably be little of that with this happening with multiple golfers at the same time on different holes.
		
Click to expand...

The mention of the drives is interesting. What a potentially great start to the coverage having 18 drives to sow whilst the next golfer is getting ready. A reall opportunity for wall to wall coverage from the off rather than the traditionally slow strat oto tournament coverage. May work, may not but could be a differnt viewing experience.


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## Depreston (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Fair point well made. On the other hand, perhaps a chance for the rules officials on this tour to take this by the scruff of the neck and start enforcing time penalites. Great way to make a few positive headlines by taking the sort of action that the PGA tour have been asked to take for years.
		
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Zero chance of that happening


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions:

1. Shotgun start: Whose opening drive will they choose to show? My money is on Dustin. Second option is Phil. They will probably ask Dustin to tee off first in his group, Phil 4th, so they can definitely show both. If they were both 1st to tee off, they'd have a dilemma on whose drive to show.

2. Do teams play in the same group (groups of 4). I'm guessing they will. Therefore, groups of 4 and probably longer rounds? (PGA is groups of 3 in opening days, groups of 2 at weekend)

3. If 2 or 3 players are tied going into the last hole, or close, will the broadcasters panic about whose shot they will show? You could have 2 or 3 players putting at the same time for the potential win. Commentators usually love to build the shot up, and discuss what is going through the players head as they walk down the fairway / circle the putt to size it up. There will probably be little of that with this happening with multiple golfers at the same time on different holes.
		
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GB72 said:



			Fair point well made. On the other hand, perhaps a chance for the rules officials on this tour to take this by the scruff of the neck and start enforcing time penalites. Great way to make a few positive headlines by taking the sort of action that the PGA tour have been asked to take for years.
		
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Or because he already has been paid a fortune, and because it's best 2 scores from a team he might speed up because that shot isn't worth as much if he misses it


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## Sports_Fanatic (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			The mention of the drives is interesting. What a potentially great start to the coverage having 18 drives to sow whilst the next golfer is getting ready. A reall opportunity for wall to wall coverage from the off rather than the traditionally slow strat oto tournament coverage. May work, may not but could be a differnt viewing experience.
		
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Surely though players take 40 seconds to a minute to play a shot, so they just can't show those shots, perhaps two at best unless they solely show a player striking the ball and no other parts of it. Not sure I want the shots being shown that quickly.

I get to a degree shorter event but I struggle to think they'll show that much more so both at the course and on TV you're likely to see less. The only bit "interesting" is working out who is in contention if someone is at -3 but have got the easier holes upcoming vs -6 and about to play the bear pit for want of a better example. Who are the producers focusing on in that situation if their are multiple players and then can't fit it all in. Seems a challenge but then I expect they are pretty switched on at it.


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## evemccc (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Bit lost here, can you clear up what the point is that you are making. Is it that golf coverage on a free to air media should not be tried as it will not attract new audiences. Is it that golf on a social media platform would not work in attracting new audiences so should not be tried. Is it that new formats of golf are bound to fail to attract new audiences so shoudl not be tried. Is it that golf should only be played on the recognised tours.

From my point of view, there is golf on TV this weekend on a free to air medium that I can watch and that is good enough for me. I can see the argument about the funding source, hell I can even see an argument about diluting a product by removing elements from the main tour but from a pure viewing perspective, having a sport on any form of medium can only do more good than harm even if it only brings back lapsed golf watchers like me.
		
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Great post


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

Draft is a bit of a fix then....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534189508119433223


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Bit lost here, can you clear up what the point is that you are making. Is it that golf coverage on a free to air media should not be tried as it will not attract new audiences. Is it that golf on a social media platform would not work in attracting new audiences so should not be tried. Is it that new formats of golf are bound to fail to attract new audiences so shoudl not be tried. Is it that golf should only be played on the recognised tours.

From my point of view, there is golf on TV this weekend on a free to air medium that I can watch and that is good enough for me. I can see the argument about the funding source, hell I can even see an argument about diluting a product by removing elements from the main tour but from a pure viewing perspective, having a sport on any form of medium can only do more good than harm even if it only brings back lapsed golf watchers like me.
		
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I really enjoyed that match between tiger and Phil with Tom Brady and peyton Manning .. it was great to watch. It was a pure money spin, it was one round. It was gimmicky.. but hell it was fun


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2022)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			Surely though players take 40 seconds to a minute to play a shot, so they just can't show those shots, perhaps two at best unless they solely show a player striking the ball and no other parts of it. Not sure I want the shots being shown that quickly.

I get to a degree shorter event but I struggle to think they'll show that much more so both at the course and on TV you're likely to see less. The only bit "interesting" is working out who is in contention if someone is at -3 but have got the easier holes upcoming vs -6 and about to play the bear pit for want of a better example. Who are the producers focusing on in that situation if their are multiple players and then can't fit it all in. Seems a challenge but then I expect they are pretty switched on at it.
		
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This to me is the whole point though. We ae talking about how, it will be shown, how it will be covered, how we will understand the positions etc. Isn't it nice to have something a bit different to discuss in the buildup, something new to talk about during and after the tournament rather than the same old same old. May be awful but it is nice to actually have someting a little off from the norm to look at.


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## garyinderry (Jun 7, 2022)

It will be intresting to see how they keep up with play.  With so much golf going on at one time its impossible to show it all. 

Following proceedings could become quite difficult for the viewer. 

Time will tell.  The no names will probably get very little coverage unless they do something remarkable or are in contention.   Kinda like it is now.


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## rksquire (Jun 7, 2022)

Who's the target audience?  If the Forum advert is anything to go by, it's us (see screen grab below).

What constitutes success in terms of views? Some Golf output on Sky gets less than 100k viewers.  I would suggest any figure that matches any Sky viewing figure for any golf will be successful.


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## LincolnShep (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions:

1. Shotgun start: Whose opening drive will they choose to show? My money is on Dustin. Second option is Phil. They will probably ask Dustin to tee off first in his group, Phil 4th, so they can definitely show both. If they were both 1st to tee off, they'd have a dilemma on whose drive to show.

2. Do teams play in the same group (groups of 4). I'm guessing they will. Therefore, groups of 4 and probably longer rounds? (PGA is groups of 3 in opening days, groups of 2 at weekend)

3. If 2 or 3 players are tied going into the last hole, or close, will the broadcasters panic about whose shot they will show? You could have 2 or 3 players putting at the same time for the potential win. Commentators usually love to build the shot up, and discuss what is going through the players head as they walk down the fairway / circle the putt to size it up. There will probably be little of that with this happening with multiple golfers at the same time on different holes.
		
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They obviously can't show every shot live but, like with existing broadcasts, they can show with a slight delay if two events coincide.  If it's streaming online there is the opportunity to let viewers pick and choose a stream, favourite group or favourite hole for example.  Not expecting them to do that with the first tournament but they have the freedom to do it in the future if they're not beholden to a single channel broadcast partner.  I remember enjoying the BBC's red button coverage of the 2012 Olympics where you could pick and choose exactly what you wanted to watch, it was all available, all the time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Questions:

1. Shotgun start: Whose opening drive will they choose to show? My money is on Dustin. Second option is Phil. They will probably ask Dustin to tee off first in his group, Phil 4th, so they can definitely show both. If they were both 1st to tee off, they'd have a dilemma on whose drive to show.
		
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Lots of golf is shown pre recorded, whether by 30 seconds,  1 minute,  2 minutes etc. It's only the magic of television that makes us think it is live. That really won't be an issue.


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

I don't recall it being covered but there is one issue with the shotgun start.
I don't know the holes at Centurion so let's imagine it's being played at Augusta.
It's the last day and there are 3 players in contention, all on the same score.
One is playing the 10th, one is playing the 11th and one is playing the 2nd....
I know who my money's on.....
Having a difficult par 4 as your last hole vs a relatively easy par 5......not really a fair fight in my view..


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I don't recall it being covered but there is one issue with the shotgun start.
I don't know the holes at Centurion so let's imagine it's being played at Augusta.
It's the last day and there are 3 players in contention, all on the same score.
One is playing the 10th, one is playing the 11th and one is playing the 2nd....
I know who my money's on.....
Having a difficult par 4 as your last hole vs a relatively easy par 5......not really a fair fight in my view..
		
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All have played the same holes over the day tho


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			All have played the same holes over the day tho
		
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Indeed they have but they guy playing the 2nd has a huge advantage as it's a relatively easy birdie to get to -10...the others have a much tougher job making their birdie to force a playoff...
Not a huge thing but it makes a difference


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Indeed they have but they guy playing the 2nd has a huge advantage as it's a relatively easy birdie to get to -10...the others have a much tougher job making their birdie to force a playoff...
Not a huge thing but it makes a difference
		
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On the flip side the player who playing the other holes played the second earlier to get him in that position


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534201070536228864


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## Imurg (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			On the flip side the player who playing the other holes played the second earlier to get him in that position
		
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So what?
2 guys playing difficult finishing holes vs 1 guy playing an easy hole...what happened before is irrelevant 
The guy playing the par 5 has a huge advantage....simple as that.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2022)

Let’s be honest,given the chance to earn a shed load of easy cash we’d all jump at it.


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## timd77 (Jun 7, 2022)

When I’ve watched women’s golf on the skysports YouTube channel, the ‘watching’ figure has often been less than 1000 at any one time. Will be interested to see what this gets.

I’ve tried to find which YouTube channel it’s being shown on and can’t find it, maybe it’ll be a last minute thing.

Will be watching more out of morbid curiosity than anything else!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So what?
2 guys playing difficult finishing holes vs 1 guy playing an easy hole...what happened before is irrelevant
The guy playing the par 5 has a huge advantage....simple as that.
		
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But surely that’s just a mental thing & it’s up to the players to manage that.
I know where you’re coming from but they’ve all played the same holes.
I’d say it’s a bigger advantage/disadvantage when you’ve got morning v afternoon starters & the weather changes.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So what?
2 guys playing difficult finishing holes vs 1 guy playing an easy hole...what happened before is irrelevant
The guy playing the par 5 has a huge advantage....simple as that.
		
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It isn't irrelevant. If what happened before hadn't happened they wouldn't be where they are now.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

timd77 said:



			When I’ve watched women’s golf on the skysports YouTube channel, the ‘watching’ figure has often been less than 1000 at any one time. Will be interested to see what this gets.

I’ve tried to find which YouTube channel it’s being shown on and can’t find it, maybe it’ll be a last minute thing.

Will be watching more out of morbid curiosity than anything else!
		
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What does the ladies game get on sky for comparison?


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## timd77 (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What does the ladies game get on sky for comparison?
		
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I couldn’t tell you. Although looking at their YouTube channel they were getting 100k+ total views for their masters coverage. Not a fair comparison, and I’m not trying to make any sort of point here, I enjoy watching women’s golf. But I’ll be surprised if LIV gets anything like those sort of numbers.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

timd77 said:



			I couldn’t tell you. Although looking at their YouTube channel they were getting 100k+ total views for their masters coverage. Not a fair comparison, and I’m not trying to make any sort of point here, I enjoy watching women’s golf. But I’ll be surprised if LIV gets anything like those sort of numbers.
		
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Issue with the masters is it's up against sky and bbc last day

Only real option this week or should I say the big option


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Lots of golf is shown pre recorded, whether by 30 seconds,  1 minute,  2 minutes etc. It's only the magic of television that makes us think it is live. That really won't be an issue.
		
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Indeed it is. Which is easy when the field is spread out, players at different stages of their round, etc. However, everyone will be at the same stage of their round. When teeing off their 1st hole, everyone will be. So, they will need to be selective which few players they choose to show (easy enough with few big names in 1st field). However, never known a situation were 2, 3, 4, etc players could be potentially sinking the winning putt simultaneously. Who do they show live, who pre recorded? When we watch the live one, will we hear a huge roar on another part of the course? We get that a little at various stages of a round now, but it is likely to get a bit overbearing with a shotgun start.


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534201070536228864

Click to expand...

Kaymer is looking a bit middle aged, isn't he?


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## PieMan (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How many viewers would you consider a success?
		
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You and Mel Smooth..........!!! 😉


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534201070536228864

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Bravo.. well said


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

PieMan said:



			You and Mel Smooth..........!!! 😉
		
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We know I'm watching it anyways lol need a few more


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## yandabrown (Jun 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			A golfer can, and 99.9% most likely does, criticise human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. I'm sure eve
Indeed it is. Which is easy when the field is spread out, players at different stages of their round, etc. However, everyone will be at the same stage of their round. When teeing off their 1st hole, everyone will be. So, they will need to be selective which few players they choose to show (easy enough with few big names in 1st field). However, never known a situation were 2, 3, 4, etc players could be potentially sinking the winning putt simultaneously. Who do they show live, who pre recorded? When we watch the live one, will we hear a huge roar on another part of the course? We get that a little at various stages of a round now, but it is likely to get a bit overbearing with a shotgun start.
		
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Lots of split screen shots showing multiple things simultaneously perhaps?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Kaymer is looking a bit middle aged, isn't he?
		
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Yeah I thought that.
Think he’s about the same age as me,made me feel old 😬


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Lots of split screen shots showing multiple things simultaneously perhaps?
		
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Possibly. Not sure how I feel about that. They do it every so often now, and you are sort of distracted by both and unable to fully focus on the significance of either. I'm sure we will soon find out.


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## PieMan (Jun 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I don't know the holes at Centurion so let's imagine it's being played at Augusta.
		
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Any half decent tour pro needing a par at 17 to take the cash is going to be laughing.

But someone from the Asian Tour ranked 600 in the world might struggle 😉


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 7, 2022)

Not really read this thread but for me there is no stopping this Liv Golf Tour Juggernaut, more top players are going to switch and that will bring a tipping point for the top players still left on the PGA tour. 
It's only my opinion but I see a situation within 2 years (probably less) where most top players are on the LIV Tour and play the majors as Extra events. 
The majors can't be majors without the major players so I don't see them being banned from playing in them if the above happens.


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## IainP (Jun 7, 2022)

I would imagine the goal in time is to have the top players in, and everyone else jockeying to be included.

I was thinking, I wouldn't mind if only the majors were 72 hole tournaments  - separate them with the history & prestige. They've been struggling to match the prize money already, before the extra 💰  arrived.

No evidence,  but I felt the majors have had an uncomfortable relationship with PGA Tour for a while.


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## Backsticks (Jun 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			You had to sign up to that , to a rubbish provider who couldn't cope

YouTube already shows sports for free, can handle it and people know it
		
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It can. But it isnt the ease with which people can or will watch golf on Youtube that is the point here - it is the fact that LIV has had to resort to it for want of more mainstream platform. It would have preferred to have sold the rights to its tournaments to transmitters around the world. But clearly couldnt. So have had to give it away on the crowded platform competing with pop songs and piano-playing cats. No sports (yes, I use the term loosely in relation to LIV), voluntarily chooses youtube. It like people 'publishing' and selling their book as a pdf only on Amazon.


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## Backsticks (Jun 7, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Not really read this thread but for me there is no stopping this Liv Golf Tour Juggernaut, more top players are going to switch and that will bring a tipping point for the top players still left on the PGA tour.
It's only my opinion but I see a situation within 2 years (probably less) where most top players are on the LIV Tour and play the majors as Extra events.
The majors can't be majors without the major players so I don't see them being banned from playing in them if the above happens.
		
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If everyone moves that would be great. What matters is having an open field so that the best are clearly known and compete against each other. Where everyone looses is if there is a divide. At the moment, the PGA still looks like the serious tour for serious golfers. LIV the knockabout x-factor wannabe in the same basket as cliff diving and aeroplane acrobatic 'sports'. But maybe if they did rope in all the golfers that matter, they would drop the teams and 54 hole nonsense etc. Without world rankings points, no one will take it seriously. And there cant be two world rankings lists.

Also. Torn over my initial feeling the Crushers were my team. Feeling I might jump ship to Punch, purely based on the big star drawing power that Wade Ormsby brings.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 7, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Not really read this thread but for me there is no stopping this Liv Golf Tour Juggernaut, more top players are going to switch and that will bring a tipping point for the top players still left on the PGA tour.
It's only my opinion but I see a situation within 2 years (probably less) where most top players are on the LIV Tour and play the majors as Extra events.
The majors can't be majors without the major players so I don't see them being banned from playing in them if the above happens.
		
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I’m not so sure - more likely to trigger a bit of reform of the pga tour and then LIV being supplementary or failing altogether.

As it stands it’s mostly players with nothing to lose joining to fill their boots with cash. 

Maybe there is room for both though? IPL in cricket (and then all the other T20 super leagues) has managed to reform things without killing what was already there, maybe this could do the same?


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## Bazzatron (Jun 7, 2022)

They've released merchandise with the team names on. 🤣


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## Backsticks (Jun 7, 2022)

The thing is, now that we can all get our team's gear, will wearing a Punch shirt be allowed when I am on the course, or banned like a football one ? Is wearing a Cleeks baseball cap backwards OK ? Difficult times ahead for dress code committees.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s still just golf fans then ? No “new” audience
		
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I don't watch golf, I don't and wont pay to watch subscription Tv.

I am the new audience, and there are potentially millions more like me.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't watch golf, I don't and wont pay to watch subscription Tv.

I am the new audience, and there are potentially millions more like me.
		
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You don't count. You don't fit the pre determined agenda of the question


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## Junior (Jun 7, 2022)

Kevin Na advertising 100 free tickets now.  Wonder how many will be there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't watch golf, I don't and wont pay to watch subscription Tv.

I am the new audience, and there are potentially millions more like me.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			You don't count. You don't fit the pre determined agenda of the question
		
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Is this not all about “growing the game” and bringing a new audience to the game ? 

Expanding the sport to areas not seen before ? 

The sport desperately needing new people ?


You are both golfers - you watch golf  , you play golf - how is it growing the game ? 

what new people will it bring to the game - you two are not the new audience - you are already in the sport 

And just because it’s not on a subscription channel doesn’t mean it’s suddenly hugely accessible to people - there are still many people out there that don’t have tellys that connect to you tube , don’t have broadband at a level that makes streaming work , don’t want to sit in front of a PC watching something 

The biggest loss for golf was losing the majors ( mainly the Open ) from terrestrial Telly - the viewing numbers dropped dramatically, and even now the highlight shows get more viewers than the main shows on sky 

But people watch them because they are the pinnacle events of the sport , the events with all the best players in it , the ones that crown the best golfers in the world 

How many “new” audience do you really think are going to tune into YouTube on a Thursday during the day to watch some unknowns and the odd old stager play golf ?

Some may tune it because it’s a bit car crash and embarrassing and even the crowds at the event will mainly all be freebies now because they just can’t sell any tickets 

It’s all very similar to the Kerry Packer WSC - it may well force the PGA to make some changes but ultimately it’s going to fail


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## Swango1980 (Jun 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this not all about “growing the game” and bringing a new audience to the game ? 

Expanding the sport to areas not seen before ? 

The sport desperately needing new people ?


You are both golfers - you watch golf  , you play golf - how is it growing the game ? 

what new people will it bring to the game - you two are not the new audience - you are already in the sport 

And just because it’s not on a subscription channel doesn’t mean it’s suddenly hugely accessible to people - there are still many people out there that don’t have tellys that connect to you tube , don’t have broadband at a level that makes streaming work , don’t want to sit in front of a PC watching something 

The biggest loss for golf was losing the majors ( mainly the Open ) from terrestrial Telly - the viewing numbers dropped dramatically, and even now the highlight shows get more viewers than the main shows on sky 

But people watch them because they are the pinnacle events of the sport , the events with all the best players in it , the ones that crown the best golfers in the world 

How many “new” audience do you really think are going to tune into YouTube on a Thursday during the day to watch some unknowns and the odd old stager play golf ?

Some may tune it because it’s a bit car crash and embarrassing and even the crowds at the event will mainly all be freebies now because they just can’t sell any tickets 

It’s all very similar to the Kerry Packer WSC - it may well force the PGA to make some changes but ultimately it’s going to fail
		
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Maybe it will fail, but some of your views seem really outdated.

We live in a different world than we did 2 or 3 decades ago. As I said, we had limited channels, most of us no more than 4 or 5. We didn't have decent ways to record TV, nor any streaming services. So, watching TV was an event. We'd buy the Radio Times, highlight any movies or programmes we'd wanna watch during the week, then schedule our lives around that. I'd make a point of staying in for Friends and Frasier Friday night, Baywatch, Gladiators and MOTD Saturday. Things like It'll be All Right on the Night, Strike It Lucky, etc all got big viewing figures. Cos they were on prime time, and that is what most people did. During day, when TV was crap kids and adults would go out and do stuff, belong to a club of some sort, some of who would choose a golf club.

Life isn't like that now. No one cares when something is on TV. They can use Catch Up, or go on Netflix. We are also swamped with programs, that fewer and fewer become a must watch. Back.in the day, You've Been Framed was huge. If it was on today, no one would really care. Video Games have grown massively in popularity. People spend hours on smart phones playing Candy Crush, surfing facebook or going on forums to tell everyone their opinions. People don't have the time to join clubs, and hang about their premises all day like they used to. Too many other distractions. Not just golf. Where I'm from the yacht club is not like it was when I grew up.in the 80's, and I'm sure others have similar experiences in many club / sport types they grew up with.

So, golf being on terrestrial TV is not going to bring back the sort of viewing figures you seem to.be talking about from the good old days. I wouldn't be surprised if people who regularly watch terrestrial TV has fallen by more than 75%. Sky works in the sense that anyone who specifically is interested in the sport will subscribe, and then Sky can invest a lot of money to try and enhance and innovate the viewing experience.

However, the fact that LIV tour is on youtube will bring in a new audience compared to the current viewers we have. There are plenty of golfers out there that DON'T have Sky. So, suddenly all those people, who.already have an interest in playing the game will now be able to watch it. Also, depending on how well it is advertised, you could well have kids wasting their day on youtube, clicking on the link and then actually quite enjoying it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 8, 2022)

I’m very unsure of the business model here.
Throwing zillions of $ around attracting players in needs to be turned into a huge positive cash flow, otherwise it is unsustainable, even with the riches of the Saudi’s.

Revenue comes from
1 bums on seats
2 merchandising
3 advertising
4 TV revenue including internet, YouTube etc

I’m not seeing anywhere near enough money being generated to make it work.

Just me with my old Bank Manager hat on 👍


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2022)

Sounds like DJ sees this massive pay day as a way out of golf.
His life must really suck 🤦‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m very unsure of the business model here.
Throwing zillions of $ around attracting players in needs to be turned into a huge positive cash flow, otherwise it is unsustainable, even with the riches of the Saudi’s.

Revenue comes from
1 bums on seats
2 merchandising
3 advertising
4 TV revenue including internet, YouTube etc

I’m not seeing anywhere near enough money being generated to make it work.

Just me with my old Bank Manager hat on 👍
		
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It is definitely not sustainable. However, if they can throw the cash at it for long enough, they can hope in that time the money attract all the biggest players, the format can be refined and improved and the fans will start to enjoy it. If it works, the big broadcasting companies will want to invest in it and they will hope to get global sponsorship. 

Once they do, and it becomes established, as I said in an earlier post, then it would be interesting to see what happens between this and the might of the PGA Tour. By that time the PGA Tour could look very different. LIV could have attracted a lot of interest from huge economies like China.

It takes money to get pretty much anywhere in this world, and this is in full focus here. Question is, how long will this funding take to build up enough momentum? Not sure if it is similar to the Chelsea football club situation? Rich Russian buys club and throws money at them. Unsustainable. But, by doing so he builds the brand so that when he stops throwing his billions at them, they are still hugely more valuable than when he joined and started splashing that cash.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this not all about “growing the game” and bringing a new audience to the game ?


*And just because it’s not on a subscription channel doesn’t mean it’s suddenly hugely accessible to people *- there are still many people out there that don’t have tellys that connect to you tube , don’t have broadband at a level that makes streaming work , don’t want to sit in front of a PC watching something
		
Click to expand...


You tube has a daily watchtime of 1 BILLION hours.

I think that shows how accesible it is.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You tube has a daily watchtime of 1 BILLION hours.

I think that shows how accesible it is.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but how do you monetise it?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes, but how do you monetise it?
		
Click to expand...

Simple, 1000 subscribers, 4000 hrs watchtime on the channel, and it's monetised by You Tube.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes, but how do you monetise it?
		
Click to expand...

Ask Rick shiels. Someone said 1.3 million from YouTube last year?


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## howbow88 (Jun 8, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m very unsure of the business model here.
Throwing zillions of $ around attracting players in needs to be turned into a huge positive cash flow, otherwise it is unsustainable, even with the riches of the Saudi’s.

Revenue comes from
1 bums on seats
2 merchandising
3 advertising
4 TV revenue including internet, YouTube etc

I’m not seeing anywhere near enough money being generated to make it work.

Just me with my old Bank Manager hat on 👍
		
Click to expand...

This is the biggest misconception I am seeing about all of this. 

The Saudis are not doing this to make money from golf. They are involved so that they can use golf as a tool to slowly improve their pretty awful reputation in the Western World. They know that when oil is finished (less than 50 years), they're in big trouble unless they can make money in other ways, eg tourism, banking, etc.

They're going to continue chucking money at this project in the hope that they can take over pro golf, and then they will just slowly pump the messages out about how great Saudi Arabia is. It's already written in the LIV player's contracts that they have to do a certain amount of 'community work' around the events, but no one us quite sure what this means...


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## Marshy77 (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Simple, 1000 subscribers, 4000 hrs watchtime on the channel, and it's monetised by You Tube.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is the difference between golfers of a certain age and for the target audience. If it's not on sky then how can it be popular. It'll be on tiktok etc soon. 

I'd guess 1000 subscribers is also a massive understatement too. More viewers, more money. 

(This is purely a comment on the above and nothing to do with if I think it's right or not)


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			I think this is the difference between golfers of a certain age and for the target audience. If it's not on sky then how can it be popular. It'll be on tiktok etc soon.

I'd guess 1000 subscribers is also a massive understatement too. More viewers, more money.

(This is purely a comment on the above and nothing to do with if I think it's right or not)
		
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Yeah, people mentioning not having You Tube on their TV's, the majority of people who watch it won't be watching on a TV.

You Tube is absolutely massive now.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 8, 2022)

Some of the mugshots of the players aren't flattering are they!! Looks like most are checking out of rehab 🤣


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## Marshy77 (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, people mentioning not having You Tube on their TV's, the majority of people who watch it won't be watching on a TV.

You Tube is absolutely massive now.
		
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As a parent you learn things from your kids. My lad started a tiktok page putting together 10 second clips of his favourite gamer. Releases them and gets between 750k-1.2m views and earns himself £90 a month. Times that by X amount from a professional social media team and it starts to add up plus the revenue from other outlets. 

It's all phone watching now. Not TVs or laptops etc.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			As a parent you learn things from your kids. My lad started a tiktok page putting together 10 second clips of his favourite gamer. Releases them and gets between 750k-1.2m views and earns himself £90 a month. Times that by X amount from a professional social media team and it starts to add up plus the revenue from other outlets. 

It's all phone watching now. Not TVs or laptops etc.
		
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Beats sending him up a chimney


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You tube has a daily watchtime of 1 BILLION hours.

I think that shows how accesible it is.
		
Click to expand...

But what are those hours ?

Little snippets - interviews etc

How many sit down and watch 4/5 hours of sport in one go ?

And why will people who have never watched golf before decide to watch LIV golf - it’s still sitting there watching 4/5 hours of golf , just because it’s 3 days instead of 4 doesn’t change much - what’s the extra appeal that will get people to watch it when previously they had no interest?

Golf has tried to find a shorter format to get people in , add a bit of “razzmatazz” and it didn’t work

You aren’t watching the current best more relevant golfers , people know that any golfer that is playing is purely there because of the huge amount of money they are being given

The British Masters - 30k tickets sold out very quickly , same every year , LIV golf - they can’t give them away and it’s now got to the stage where they are offering postcodes 100 miles away free tickets.



PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m very unsure of the business model here.
Throwing zillions of $ around attracting players in needs to be turned into a huge positive cash flow, otherwise it is unsustainable, even with the riches of the Saudi’s.

Revenue comes from
1 bums on seats
2 merchandising
3 advertising
4 TV revenue including internet, YouTube etc

I’m not seeing anywhere near enough money being generated to make it work.

Just me with my old Bank Manager hat on 👍
		
Click to expand...

There is a budget of £6bn I believe for the first 4 years , that money is a drop in the ocean for them 

They won’t be looking to generate money for the first 4 years 

They need/want to attract all the best players but there will always be a key element missing - ranking points , the points that enable players to gain entry into the majors/Ryder cup etc 

Without those ranking points they can’t get into The Masters or The USPGA and for the two Opens they will need to qualify via local qualifying and then final qualifying etc 

And regardless of what money is thrown - those 4/5 events are the pinnacle of the sport - being given £100mil won’t enable them to enter a major 

It’s all just like the Kerry Packer WSC - someone else who wanted to change things and threw money at it - lasted 2 years


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## Slab (Jun 8, 2022)

Dunno why but after reading a fair bit of the online narrative from folks who are clearly anti LIV, and despite what they write I’m not convinced the Saudi thing isn’t just a convenient vehicle and they’d be just as anti LIV if it was backed by Grandma’s Teddy Bear Co

And now that kick off is imminent many of the ‘objections’ seem to be purely to get the count of ‘numbers of flaws up’ i.e 
problems with a shotgun start on final day; but its kinda obvious this will have been thought through, so we’ll likely see the final day leaders starting on hole 1 with those close behind on hole 2 etc etc so. So only rarely will the winning putt be on hole 7 or 13 etc. But is that really any different to the ET last week when the winner finished nearly 2 hours ahead of the final pairing 
The most boring golf to watch on TV is always the final of the WGC matchplay. Shotgun is the polar opposite, maybe its even too far, and maybe a 3 or 6 tee start works better, we’ll find out
Doesn’t a shotgun start eliminate one of the worst things about 156 guys rocking up to a tournament i.e the ‘luck of the draw’ (which btw is never a random draw) re the weather the players face. How many times have we seen half a field eliminated simply because conditions changed, even Majors have been decided that way

I read there will be cameras on every hole all the time so if a shot is worthy it can be shown. That’s not what happens now on a bog standard tour event, they pick and choose who/when to film and so many players don’t get any screen time for their play (or their sponsors) etc . That’s why there’s no footage of the very first par 4 hole-in-one on the main European tour, because the camera team weren’t even filming the players on that hole at that time (& in case anyone thinks that was in the dim and distant past when only a couple of cameras were on site, it was only achieved in 2015)

Weren’t a bunch of folks (even on this forum) totally against a 72 hole strokeplay format for golf in the Olympics, preferring innovation on format, teams, amateurs etc among other variations… now it seems 72 hole strokeplay is somehow sacrosanct when a new tournament want to give something else a go   

These alternatives to the status quo will be tried, tweaked and if it all fails then it fails but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted


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## Jason.H (Jun 8, 2022)

Moneys isn’t everything. Cantley didn’t break a smile when he won the FedEx 12+ million $. I on the other hand would be grinning like a Cheshire Cat.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But what are those hours ?

Little snippets - interviews etc

How many sit down and watch 4/5 hours of sport in one go ?

And why will people who have never watched golf before decide to watch LIV golf - it’s still sitting there watching 4/5 hours of golf , just because it’s 3 days instead of 4 doesn’t change much - what’s the extra appeal that will get people to watch it when previously they had no interest?

Golf has tried to find a shorter format to get people in , add a bit of “razzmatazz” and it didn’t work

You aren’t watching the current best more relevant golfers , people know that any golfer that is playing is purely there because of the huge amount of money they are being given

The British Masters - 30k tickets sold out very quickly , same every year , LIV golf - they can’t give them away and it’s now got to the stage where they are offering postcodes 100 miles away free tickets.



There is a budget of £6bn I believe for the first 4 years , that money is a drop in the ocean for them

They won’t be looking to generate money for the first 4 years

They need/want to attract all the best players but there will always be a key element missing - ranking points , the points that enable players to gain entry into the majors/Ryder cup etc

Without those ranking points they can’t get into The Masters or The USPGA and for the two Opens they will need to qualify via local qualifying and then final qualifying etc

And regardless of what money is thrown - those 4/5 events are the pinnacle of the sport - being given £100mil won’t enable them to enter a major

It’s all just like the Kerry Packer WSC - someone else who wanted to change things and threw money at it - lasted 2 years
		
Click to expand...

Rick Shiels put out a video last week, playing a 16 year old. 900,000 views. 

That's Rick Shields and a kid that most people will have NEVER heard of.

How you can't see the potential here is completely beyond me. Or perhaps you can, but can't concede the point.


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## Jason.H (Jun 8, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes, but how do you monetise it?
		
Click to expand...

.   Youtubers like Rick Shiels will be raking in millions. LIV golf will have the viewers it’s a global sport.


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## Jason.H (Jun 8, 2022)

YouTube is going to be popular this week


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## garyinderry (Jun 8, 2022)

There is countless hours of golf available to watch on YouTube.  The fact its live wont have that big a draw for non golf fans.  Live golf can and very often does be extremely boring for long periods of time. I'd say for the casual viewer, they would only get excited as it draws to its conclusion.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. From the challenge of covering and presenting this differnt format of golf to the possibility of it being a complete car crash.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			.   Youtubers like Rick Shiels will be raking in millions. LIV golf will have the viewers it’s a global sport.
		
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Not sure they are taking in “millions” - they get a lot of sponsorship and partnerships but it’s nowhere near millions or the sort of funds that help someone retire early


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## Marshy77 (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Beats sending him up a chimney 

Click to expand...

He still does that but posts it live on YouTube


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure they are taking in “millions” - they get a lot of sponsorship and partnerships but it’s nowhere near millions or the sort of funds that help someone retire early
		
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You would be surprised, plenty of people bringing in millions off yourtube ad revenue.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure they are taking in “millions” - they get a lot of sponsorship and partnerships but it’s nowhere near millions or the sort of funds that help someone retire early
		
Click to expand...

Just did a quick search, and quote following:

"The $1.76 million forecast is only based on YouTube advertising revenue. Meaning, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could actually be much higher. When we consider many income sources, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could be as high as $2.46 million."

This range of numbers seem to be quoted quite frequently. There are other sites that suggest he could have a net worth of tens of millions, although I probably don't trust that. Certainly not without researching more. However, the numbers seem to suggest you are probably plainly incorrect in saying "it's nowhere near millions". I also reckon I could retire on that sort of money.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 8, 2022)

The Saudis do not care about making money from this. They have more money than just about everyone else on the planet combined.

They could have the highest revenue generating channel on YT and it wouldn’t even register with them.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just did a quick search, and quote following:

"The $1.76 million forecast is only based on YouTube advertising revenue. Meaning, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could actually be much higher. When we consider many income sources, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could be as high as $2.46 million."

This range of numbers seem to be quoted quite frequently. There are other sites that suggest he could have a net worth of tens of millions, although I probably don't trust that. Certainly not without researching more. However, the numbers seem to suggest you are probably plainly incorrect in saying "it's nowhere near millions". I also reckon I could retire on that sort of money.
		
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He had 600 grand in the bank at the end of his 2020 accounts period, and hes grown massively since then.


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## larmen (Jun 8, 2022)

The LIV golf banners taking up a lot of screen space on this forum at the moment. It wasn't like this yesterday, I think.


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

larmen said:



			The LIV golf banners taking up a lot of screen space on this forum at the moment. It wasn't like this yesterday, I think.
		
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Mel or Paul from the marketing team must have had a word with the admin


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Absolutely scandalous 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534480298750226432


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Absolutely scandalous 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534480298750226432

Click to expand...


Canny that ha


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## Brads (Jun 8, 2022)

Week their advert takes up half my screen on my phone trying to read this thread so they aren’t half throwing the cash about it seems


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Absolutely scandalous 😂


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534480298750226432

Click to expand...

12 Handicap apparently be interesting what he scores haha


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

Great to see that Phil Mickelson after having “time to reflect“ during his absence from golf, is now back and presumably “the man he wants to be”……considerably richer and just as hypocritical. At least if anyone had any doubts about his morals and sincerity they can now be banished.


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## AussieKB (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this not all about “growing the game” and bringing a new audience to the game ?

Expanding the sport to areas not seen before ?

The sport desperately needing new people ?


You are both golfers - you watch golf  , you play golf - how is it growing the game ?

what new people will it bring to the game - you two are not the new audience - you are already in the sport

And just because it’s not on a subscription channel doesn’t mean it’s suddenly hugely accessible to people - there are still many people out there that don’t have tellys that connect to you tube , don’t have broadband at a level that makes streaming work , don’t want to sit in front of a PC watching something

The biggest loss for golf was losing the majors ( mainly the Open ) from terrestrial Telly - the viewing numbers dropped dramatically, and even now the highlight shows get more viewers than the main shows on sky

But people watch them because they are the pinnacle events of the sport , the events with all the best players in it , the ones that crown the best golfers in the world

How many “new” audience do you really think are going to tune into YouTube on a Thursday during the day to watch some unknowns and the odd old stager play golf ?

Some may tune it because it’s a bit car crash and embarrassing and even the crowds at the event will mainly all be freebies now because they just can’t sell any tickets

It’s all very similar to the Kerry Packer WSC - it may well force the PGA to make some changes but ultimately it’s going to fail
		
Click to expand...

WSC did not fail, just ask the players.


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## AussieKB (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But what are those hours ?

Little snippets - interviews etc

How many sit down and watch 4/5 hours of sport in one go ?

And why will people who have never watched golf before decide to watch LIV golf - it’s still sitting there watching 4/5 hours of golf , just because it’s 3 days instead of 4 doesn’t change much - what’s the extra appeal that will get people to watch it when previously they had no interest?

Golf has tried to find a shorter format to get people in , add a bit of “razzmatazz” and it didn’t work

You aren’t watching the current best more relevant golfers , people know that any golfer that is playing is purely there because of the huge amount of money they are being given

The British Masters - 30k tickets sold out very quickly , same every year , LIV golf - they can’t give them away and it’s now got to the stage where they are offering postcodes 100 miles away free tickets.



There is a budget of £6bn I believe for the first 4 years , that money is a drop in the ocean for them

They won’t be looking to generate money for the first 4 years

They need/want to attract all the best players but there will always be a key element missing - ranking points , the points that enable players to gain entry into the majors/Ryder cup etc

Without those ranking points they can’t get into The Masters or The USPGA and for the two Opens they will need to qualify via local qualifying and then final qualifying etc

And regardless of what money is thrown - those 4/5 events are the pinnacle of the sport - being given £100mil won’t enable them to enter a major

It’s all just like the Kerry Packer WSC - someone else who wanted to change things and threw money at it - lasted 2 years
		
Click to expand...

Lasted two years because he then won the TV rights.


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## AussieKB (Jun 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			Great to see that Phil Mickelson after having “time to reflect“ during his absence from golf, is now back and presumably “the man he wants to be”……considerably richer and just as hypocritical. At least if anyone had any doubts about his morals and sincerity they can now be banished.
		
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Agree with that, just like Rory Tiger etc all playing in China and Saudi, but does that make them hypocrites ?


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Agree with that, just like Rory Tiger etc all playing in China and Saudi, but does that make them hypocrites ?
		
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To an extent yes. 
Just looked at the parking arrangements and Guest Information on the LIV site. 15 minute shuttle bus ride and plenty of restrictions, especially bags, on what you can take into the event. Not sure how ‘Golf but louder’ will be any different to a tour event when the only noise encouraged is cheering?


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## theoneandonly (Jun 8, 2022)

I see GM have no qualms taking the Saudi coin, going by how little of my screen I can see because of  LIV golf ads.🤣😂🤣


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I see GM have no qualms taking the Saudi coin, going by how little of my screen I can see because of  LIV golf ads.🤣😂🤣
		
Click to expand...

Agree, it’s a right pain in the arse, and bigger than a ‘random irritation’ !! 😡


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## davidy233 (Jun 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			Agree, it’s a right pain in the arse, and bigger than a ‘random irritation’ !! 😡
		
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Doubt I'd ever be on here if I didn't use an ad blocker - I remember the putting up with horrendous ads days


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## fundy (Jun 8, 2022)

Sounds like Bryson and Pat Reed next on the gravy train..............


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## Springveldt (Jun 8, 2022)

Brads said:



			Week their advert takes up half my screen on my phone trying to read this thread so they aren’t half throwing the cash about it seems
		
Click to expand...

Do we boycott the forums now for taking the Saudi money?


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## LincolnShep (Jun 8, 2022)

Although I've been a Niblicks fan for as long as I can remember, the patriotic side of me wants to support the Majesticks.  I wonder if I can get a half and half scarf...


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## Springveldt (Jun 8, 2022)

If the Saudi's are in this for the long haul (like the 10 year plan it supposedly has) then I can see this going the same way as football.

Serie A used to be the best league as it had the money.
Then La Liga was the best as it had the money.
Now the Premier League is the best because, shookeroonie, it has the money.

It's just human nature, eventually people will follow the money. 

In 5 years time if LIV keep stealing the best young talent before they even get onto the PGA Tour, how does the Tour compete when they aren't getting the next Rahm, Spieth, JT, Morikawa, Hovland etc.


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## evemccc (Jun 8, 2022)

I am not a Phil fan and I don’t really care about Pro golfers…But I don’t understand something…

Phil said (something like) the Saudi’s were dangerous / crazy ‘dudes’ and that they killed Jamal Khashoggi…

Also that he was only using LIV to gain ‘leverage’ to enact changes to the PGA Tour..

And what else??

I have never understood what is so scandalous or outrageously heinous about this…


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Canny that ha
		
Click to expand...

Trump is 100 percent going to get a Pro-am gig at one of his venues -  I can already sense the outrage.


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## LincolnShep (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Trump is 100 percent going to get a gig at one of his venues -  I can already sense the outrage.

Click to expand...

It's a bit tacky, too much razzmattazz, all about the money, and morally questionable - of course Trump is involved!


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## Bazzatron (Jun 8, 2022)

Money ruined football, golf going the same way.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			It's a bit tacky, too much razzmattazz, all about the money, and morally questionable - of course Trump is involved!
View attachment 42960

Click to expand...

Apologies, I've not worded it well, I should have stated in the Pro Am's that take place on the Wednesday.

I'll edit the post.


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## slicer79 (Jun 8, 2022)

Not sure if it has been mentioned here previously, but I wonder did it cause any issues among members of the Centurion club?


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## Dando (Jun 8, 2022)

Apparently fatrick Reed and Bryson have signed up


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## Bazzatron (Jun 8, 2022)

Dando said:



			Apparently fatrick Reed and Bryson have signed up
		
Click to expand...

Both on team nobrot or whatever its called.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

By the way, if anybody needs the link to the LIV golf You tube account, here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuC-Is0pVH9RudfZJw-LSmw


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Dando said:



			Apparently fatrick Reed and Bryson have signed up
		
Click to expand...

If it carries on like this, Rory might actually win something this year.


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If it carries on like this, Rory might actually win something this year.
		
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I think we'll wait until someone ranked better than him jumps ship before worrying about that sort of thing...have you got anyone from the top 10 yet?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think we'll wait until someone ranked better than him jumps ship before worrying about that sort of thing...have you got anyone from the top 10 yet?
		
Click to expand...

No but Stenson, Fowler and Bubba are expected at the next one.


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## Imurg (Jun 8, 2022)

Purely hypothetical but...
Players like Horsefield, Canter etc are signed up for this.
What happens if the entire top 48 bang on Greg's door and want in...?
I guess the lesser players will just be paid off and discarded..
At the end of the day I don't really care what happens..I don't watch much PGA golf - it's mostly pretty dull.
I do watch some DPW golf and, if the big boys go and play by themselves, the DWP won't see much change. It may even attract more sponsorship from businesses that don't want to be involved with LIV and make DPW a better product than it is..

Just get rid of the goddamn advert!!!!


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## MarkT (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No but Stenson, Fowler and Bubba are expected at the next one.
		
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Think Stenson has signed a contract which means he can't play on a breakaway circuit, any captain does but the vice-captains don't have to


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No but Stenson, Fowler and Bubba are expected at the next one.
		
Click to expand...

Stenson won’t be there because of the Ryder Cup


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No but Stenson, Fowler and Bubba are expected at the next one.
		
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Stenson won;t as he's RC captain, Fowler is hardly a leading light anymore & Bubba's on one leg


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 8, 2022)

I think judging by the advert GM have taken the Saudi money......

Won't be long before mods are shutting this thread down if anyone is critical


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2022)

saving_par said:



			I think judging by the advert GM have taken the Saudi money......

Won't be long before mods are shutting this thread down if anyone is critical 

Click to expand...

& chopping off the hands of any infidels who dare question the regime


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

The Liv Tour website, on the Teams page, denotes 3 players as Amateurs (the wiki pages for them suggests one just turned pro, the other 2 are amateur). 

Question is, will they be allowed to win money? One of them is 15 years old, the one in Phil Mickleson's team (Ratchanon Chantananuwat)


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## D-S (Jun 8, 2022)

Bryson now confirmed via his agent.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534532355284779011


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## Oddsocks (Jun 8, 2022)

Dando said:



			Apparently fatrick Reed and Bryson have signed up
		
Click to expand...


Rumours are it’s under the agreement that if fatrick greed gets caught cheating, he’s beheaded!


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## Imurg (Jun 8, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Rumours are it’s under the agreement that if fatrick greed gets caught cheating, he’s beheaded!
		
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Better sharpen the axe then....


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## Oddsocks (Jun 8, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Better sharpen the axe then....

Click to expand...

Na’s doing it…. Could take a while 😂😂


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## Dando (Jun 8, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Rumours are it’s under the agreement that if fatrick greed gets caught cheating, he’s beheaded!
		
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it's worse than that mate, they'll make him use pink castle tees


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Rickie Fowler going for it as well


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 8, 2022)

Havnt really kept up with this but what are the courses like?
There not going to be Pebble Beach, Sawgrass etc.
Is it going to be a drive ,wedge fest?


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## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2022)

If any one of us was self employed, and a major purchaser to who we could sell our services to started imposing sanctions, what would be our reply?

I’m not interested in the morals of the argument dished out by some on here apart from to ask where were your moans when the European Tour, and the US PGA were having events/co-sanctioned events in the Middle East?

I don’t think this is anything to do with a moral argument, it’s the US PGA imposing restrictive practices. It will either stand or fall, and I’m not fussed either way as long as I get to see good golf played.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534557950521614338
😬😂😂😂


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

Hobbit, post: If any one of us was self employed, and a major purchaser to who we could sell our services to started imposing sanctions, what would be our reply?
First off, I’d check exactly what was in the contract between us when I started ‘selling‘ my services to them - what were my obligations and what were theirs.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			If the Saudi's are in this for the long haul (like the 10 year plan it supposedly has) then I can see this going the same way as football.

Serie A used to be the best league as it had the money.
Then La Liga was the best as it had the money.
Now the Premier League is the best because, shookeroonie, it has the money.

It's just human nature, eventually people will follow the money.

In 5 years time if LIV keep stealing the best young talent before they even get onto the PGA Tour, how does the Tour compete when they aren't getting the next Rahm, Spieth, JT, Morikawa, Hovland etc.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the LIV golf model, is it? Aren't they wanting to operate like the Champions League in football, or like the IPL in cricket, where they have a few events a year that the best in the world come and play? Who the best in the world is will still be determined by the PGA tour and European tour. Don't think they are seeking to replace the PGA Tour, they want to co-exist and supplement what is already there. Long-term, LIV golf only works if that happens and they get the best players in the world, the money alone isn't enough to make watching a field made up of a few of the top 20 and load of has beens interesting beyond an event or two.


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534557950521614338
😬😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

So, probably anywhere if the money is right then ! Get the Colombian Series supported by The Gulf Cartel and friends of Escobar up and running !! 😄


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I have youtube on all day, as I listen to music through it at my desk
		
Click to expand...

Top tip for mobile is to download Newpipe (for free) which is a YouTube client. It removes all the adverts from videos, allows you to listen with the screen turned off and download videos or rip the audio to your phone. 

👍


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## Dando (Jun 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			So, probably anywhere if the money is right then ! Get the Colombian Series supported by The Gulf Cartel and friends of Escobar up and running !! 😄
		
Click to expand...

DJ and Paulina will be all over that!


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Let’s be honest,given the chance to earn a shed load of easy cash we’d all jump at it.
		
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Yet plenty of golfers have turned it down.....


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Sounds like DJ sees this massive pay day *as a way out of golf.
His life mus*t really suck 🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Wherever DJ goes, DJ will be.


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## rksquire (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534557950521614338
😬😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...


The moral outrage by the journos on everyone's behalf is outrageous.... albeit slightly funny ironic, as all the gifs and memes are leading to greater promotion. England will play a World Cup in December - the softball questions to Southgate and Kane have been shocking.  Is there anywhere Kane wouldn't play for money?  The answer will be the same as GMacs -"we're not politicians, we play where we're told".  I would have no issue with the systematic onslaught if it was consistent.  The PGA Tour killed the ET, purely because of money.  Carters post-interview analysis of his interview with Norman is as ridiculous as it is unfair.  There's no impartiality going into these discussions.  Arguments about the cash are irrelevant - that ship sailed when the ET failed to crack down on those playing the majority of their golf in the USA.  Discussions about the source of the money and human rights records are relevant - as relevant for golf as it is for F1, Football, Tennis etc. Andy Murray can hold his head high.  But that's it.  Didn't we just have an Olympics and World Cup in Russia?  Despite Russia's abhorrent views on homosexuality etc.?  The double standards are shocking, imho.

For all the commentary about the line-up, LIVs is far better than DPWT's offering this weekend.  Had a look at the power rankings for the Canadian Open and in all honesty, if it wasn't for Scotty Shuffler, Thomas, Lowry, McIlroy, Hatton and Smith I'm not sure what interest I'd have in it.

As more names start to roll, as a 'product', I can't help but think that people like Beef Johnston, Andy Sullivan and even Justin Rose would be well served trying to get on board.  I'd tune in every week for Andy Sullivan alone.


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## Ethan (Jun 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			Hobbit, post: If any one of us was self employed, and a major purchaser to who we could sell our services to started imposing sanctions, what would be our reply?
First off, I’d check exactly what was in the contract between us when I started ‘selling‘ my services to them - what were my obligations and what were theirs.

Click to expand...

If I had a contract working for GSK developing a new drug for asthma, and Pfizer came along and signed me up to work on their similar drug for asthma, GSK would rightly be p'd off and terminate my contract, and possibly sue if I started the latter without telling them. 

I have declined work several times for precisely those reasons.


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## Ethan (Jun 8, 2022)

rksquire said:



*The moral outrage by the journos on everyone's behalf is outrageous.*... albeit slightly funny ironic, as all the gifs and memes are leading to greater promotion. England will play a World Cup in December - the softball questions to Southgate and Kane have been shocking.  Is there anywhere Kane wouldn't play for money?  The answer will be the same as *GMacs -"we're not politicians, *we play where we're told".  I would have no issue with the systematic onslaught if it was consistent.  The PGA Tour killed the ET, purely because of money.  Carters post-interview analysis of his interview with Norman is as ridiculous as it is unfair.  There's no impartiality going into these discussions.  Arguments about the cash are irrelevant - that ship sailed when the ET failed to crack down on those playing the majority of their golf in the USA.  Discussions about the source of the money and human rights records are relevant - as relevant for golf as it is for F1, Football, Tennis etc. Andy Murray can hold his head high.  But that's it.  Didn't we just have an Olympics and World Cup in Russia?  Despite Russia's abhorrent views on homosexuality etc.?  The double standards are shocking, imho.

For all the commentary about the line-up, LIVs is far better than DPWT's offering this weekend.  Had a look at the power rankings for the Canadian Open and in all honesty, if it wasn't for Scotty Shuffler, Thomas, Lowry, McIlroy, Hatton and Smith I'm not sure what interest I'd have in it.

As more names start to roll, as a 'product', I can't help but think that people like Beef Johnston, Andy Sullivan and even Justin Rose would be well served trying to get on board.  I'd tune in every week for Andy Sullivan alone.
		
Click to expand...

You prefer amoral outrage? 

I bet GMac would rethink his breezy dismissal if he was invited to take part in the Northern Ireland Open, accepted then discovered it was being sponsored by Sinn Fein.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just did a quick search, and quote following:

"The $1.76 million forecast is only based on YouTube advertising revenue. Meaning, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could actually be much higher. When we consider many income sources, Rick Shiels Golf's net worth could be as high as $2.46 million."

This range of numbers seem to be quoted quite frequently. There are other sites that suggest he could have a net worth of tens of millions, although I probably don't trust that. Certainly not without researching more. However, the numbers seem to suggest you are probably plainly incorrect in saying "it's nowhere near millions". I also reckon I could retire on that sort of money.
		
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It's a lot of money, but keep in mind that it has taken 12 years to do so. LIV isn't about to recoup its costs in a few events, far from it.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Yet plenty of golfers have turned it down.....
		
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For now. And, it will be because they are taking the safe option, not because of any moral issues. Many already have plenty of money, but they will also be aware that the PGA has been a stable tour for years, and in no way do they want to jeopardise their future, and sponsorship, and world ranking points, by going over to a brand new tour that may die a death in a year.

However, as more big name players get attracted to LIV, and if LIV continues on and becomes popular, then clearly more big names will be tempted. And, there will become a point where so many move across that everyone else will just follow. They might as well, no point in one or 2 decent players refusing to play in it, while all the other best players are earning millions on this new tour. That is, if it takes off like it wants to.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			It's a lot of money, but keep in mind that it has taken 12 years to do so. LIV isn't about to recoup its costs in a few events, far from it.
		
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To be fair, I wasn't trying to back up LIVs financial model. I was simply responding to Liverpoolphils comment that Rick Shiels has not made anywhere near millions from youtube.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534557950521614338
😬😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

This is why kids heroes should never be sporting figures. It inevitably leads to disappointment when it's revealed they're generally poor examples of human beings.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			For now. And, it will be because they are taking the safe option, not because of any moral issues. Many already have plenty of money, but they will also be aware that the PGA has been a stable tour for years, and in no way do they want to jeopardise their future, and sponsorship, and world ranking points, by going over to a brand new tour that may die a death in a year.

However, as more big name players get attracted to LIV, and if LIV continues on and becomes popular, then clearly more big names will be tempted. And, there will become a point where so many move across that everyone else will just follow. They might as well, no point in one or 2 decent players refusing to play in it, while all the other best players are earning millions on this new tour. That is, if it takes off like it wants to.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. Either way I personally won't watch it. As I've said before the only way golf will 'survive' as a (TV) sport is if one or the other tour wins outright. The compromise is that it splits the player base and you end up with many more competitions where the field is diluted one way or another. I'm not averse to changes in format and it's typical of the conservative nature of golf that the PGA Tour is stuck in its ways and lagging behind. It's just a shame the money has come from where it has done. As Lou Stagner said5on Mark Crossfield's podcast, "had it been Swiss money there wouldn't have been an outcry".


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2022)

rksquire said:



			The moral outrage by the journos on everyone's behalf is outrageous.... albeit slightly funny ironic, as all the gifs and memes are leading to greater promotion. England will play a World Cup in December - the softball questions to Southgate and Kane have been shocking.  Is there anywhere Kane wouldn't play for money?  The answer will be the same as GMacs -"we're not politicians, we play where we're told".  I would have no issue with the systematic onslaught if it was consistent.  The PGA Tour killed the ET, purely because of money.  Carters post-interview analysis of his interview with Norman is as ridiculous as it is unfair.  There's no impartiality going into these discussions.  Arguments about the cash are irrelevant - that ship sailed when the ET failed to crack down on those playing the majority of their golf in the USA.  Discussions about the source of the money and human rights records are relevant - as relevant for golf as it is for F1, Football, Tennis etc. Andy Murray can hold his head high.  But that's it.  Didn't we just have an Olympics and World Cup in Russia?  Despite Russia's abhorrent views on homosexuality etc.?  The double standards are shocking, imho.

For all the commentary about the line-up, LIVs is far better than DPWT's offering this weekend.  Had a look at the power rankings for the Canadian Open and in all honesty, if it wasn't for Scotty Shuffler, Thomas, Lowry, McIlroy, Hatton and Smith I'm not sure what interest I'd have in it.

As more names start to roll, as a 'product', I can't help but think that people like Beef Johnston, Andy Sullivan and even Justin Rose would be well served trying to get on board.  I'd tune in every week for Andy Sullivan alone.
		
Click to expand...

I just liked watching the squirm 😂😂
Not like Poulter to be lost for words 😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Maybe, maybe not. Either way I personally won't watch it. As I've said before the only way golf will 'survive' as a (TV) sport is if one or the other tour wins outright. The compromise is that it splits the player base and you end up with many more competitions where the field is diluted one way or another. I'm not averse to changes in format and it's typical of the conservative nature of golf that the PGA Tour is stuck in its ways and lagging behind. It's just a shame the money has come from where it has done. As Lou Stagner said5on Mark Crossfield's podcast, "had it been Swiss money there wouldn't have been an outcry".
		
Click to expand...

It wouldn't split the tour if the PGA didn't throw their toys out the pram.

Let them play the 8 events a year along with their PGA commitments and the tour would be fine.

They just want to be the be all and end all.


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## GGTTH (Jun 8, 2022)

Every single golfer that is taking part in this is an absolute dick. Make no bones about it.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It wouldn't split the tour if the PGA didn't throw their toys out the pram.

Let them play the 8 events a year along with their PGA commitments and the tour would be fine.

They just want to be the be all and end all.
		
Click to expand...

Business can be like that. 🤷


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## rksquire (Jun 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You prefer amoral outrage?

I bet GMac would rethink his breezy dismissal if he was invited to take part in the Northern Ireland Open, accepted then discovered it was being sponsored by Sinn Fein.
		
Click to expand...

I prefer balanced, impartial reporting and journalism, and let the people decide - but that's just me.  It's clear now that the parties starting to get involved are legitimizing it as a golf tournament / venture / spectacle.  The issue around gender equality, homosexuality, human right records however remain a massive issue and cannot be legitimized by throwing money at it.  Does this do that?  The outrage is the tokenism that has been thrown at it across other sports, and it will only be token notes in December whilst the World Cup is on, without the same anger being directed at, say, Lewis Hamilton, Harry Kane, Tyson Fury (WWE), etc.   

Apart from the fact that Sinn Fein is a political party and couldn't sponsor the NI Open, Sinn Fein is a perfectly legitimate party with no links or say in any other organization so see no reason why he wouldn't participate.  Sinn Fein, amongst others, have been very favorable and helpful in not only bringing the Irish Open to NI venues and helping secure funding for the NI Open but in bringing the Open to Portrush.  Maybe I'm missing something with regard to GMac and / or Sinn Fein?


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## Bazzatron (Jun 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534557950521614338
😬😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Not like Poulter not to have a smart arsed comment ready.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Business can be like that. 🤷
		
Click to expand...

Did they fell the same when they broke away from the PGA of America? Or when they set up events in China and hoovered up all the talent from the ET tour?

Their a bunch of hypocrites


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

GGTTH said:



			Every single golfer that is taking part in this is an absolute dick. Make no bones about it.
		
Click to expand...

And, I am sure they don't really care what people think anyway. After all, given they are in the public eye, they will be aware that "normal" people will always like to judge them and take the moral high ground, without ever meeting that golfer or being in a similar position where they had to make that decision as well. So, they probably have a thick skin. They will be making a huge sum of money, and can use that to make their families and future generations very comfortable indeed, and invest in their businesses / staff / charities they may be involved with off the golf course. Their families will still love them, and their mates will still be their mates, as they are in a much better position to judge them than us. And, they, their families and friends will all understand that they do not actually support human right violations, like the sensationalist media like us to believe. 

And, just to clarify, if DJ's or Phil's agent contacted me tonight and asked me to caddy for them, with me getting 10% of any prize money, I would be down their like a shot


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Did they fell the same when they broke away from the PGA of America? Or when they set up events in China and hoovered up all the talent from the ET tour?

Their a bunch of hypocrites
		
Click to expand...

Business can be like that 🤷


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## GGTTH (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And, I am sure they don't really care what people think anyway. After all, given they are in the public eye, they will be aware that "normal" people will always like to judge them and take the moral high ground, without ever meeting that golfer or being in a similar position where they had to make that decision as well. So, they probably have a thick skin. They will be making a huge sum of money, and can use that to make their families and future generations very comfortable indeed, and invest in their businesses / staff / charities they may be involved with off the golf course. Their families will still love them, and their mates will still be their mates, as they are in a much better position to judge them than us. And, they, their families and friends will all understand that they do not actually support human right violations, like the sensationalist media like us to believe.

And, just to clarify, if DJ's or Phil's agent contacted me tonight and asked me to caddy for them, with me getting 10% of any prize money, I would be down their like a shot 

Click to expand...

Says alot about your morals.


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## 4LEX (Jun 8, 2022)

Poulter would've played in Iraq under ISIS if it meant he could buy a few new Ferrari's and post some humblebrags on Insta. Funny seeing the colour drain from his face in that clip, even though the journalists have very little morals themselves!


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## pokerjoke (Jun 8, 2022)

This Liv golf could actually lead to the PGA and USPGA making tournaments more lucrative.
Maybe reaching 20 million for each tournament .
The rich will get richer .
At the end of the day the purse will be bigger and maybe deeper,giving lower placings more of the pie.
It makes me laugh when players like Rory say they don’t play for the money,and their morals and standards are higher,it’s all bs,most are greedy buggers.
Of course it’s not just golfers it’s in most sports.
I can’t remember there being this must condemnation when lesser known footballers were selling their soles to the Chinese football league for millions.
I’ve said it before on this thread ,human greed holds no bounds,it’s rife everywhere and will never stop.
Players saying they are doing it for their families when they are worth 30 million plus is just laughable.
Be honest and you will get more respect.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

GGTTH said:



			Says alot about your morals.
		
Click to expand...

Ok then. Do you not buy a single thing from China?

Where does your petrol / diesel come from? 

Just wondering how those stack up on the old morals


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Poulter would've played in Iraq under ISIS if it meant he could buy a few new Ferrari's and post some humblebrags on Insta. Funny seeing the colour drain from his face in that clip, even though the journalists have very little morals themselves!
		
Click to expand...

Rich Tory voter in likes money shocker 🙄


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

I’m not a big fan of the PGA Tour organisation, it strikes me as having some self serving, oily characters running it and isn’t exactly welcoming to newcomers, so I’m not defending here vis a vis the LIV setup.
However surely the big difference between golf and the F1 and football taking place in the Middle East is that the drivers / players are employees and most likely subject to contracts whereas the golfers are telling us they are independent contractors. Therefore they have a choice, to play or not, to partake in the series or not……and they’ve made it quite clear that the money talks over anything else.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

woofers said:



			I’m not a big fan of the PGA Tour organisation, it strikes me as having some self serving, oily characters running it and isn’t exactly welcoming to newcomers, so I’m not defending here vis a vis the LIV setup.
However surely the big difference between golf and the F1 and football taking place in the Middle East is that the drivers / players are employees and most likely subject to contracts whereas the golfers are telling us they are independent contractors. Therefore they have a choice, to play or not, to partake in the series or not……and they’ve made it quite clear that the money talks over anything else.
		
Click to expand...

That's a very good point. Also nice to see someone not worship the PGA like they are super clean


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

GGTTH said:



			Says alot about your morals.
		
Click to expand...

Not really. But it says a lot about how people like to judge others without having a clue about them. 

But again, what do I care if people on social media like to write their own story and context on what I believe? The people who know me have a better idea on what my morals are, and they would continue to do so if I accepted the bizarre phone call to be a caddy.

Furthermore, I know people who went to the Middle East for several years to earn much higher salaries. I must admit, I never judged them as being people who supported human rights abuses. I just assumed they did it to make more money. Saw no harm in that, still don't.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ok then. Do you not buy a single thing from China?

Where does your petrol / diesel come from?

Just wondering how those stack up on the old morals
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, there's a difference between the general public trying to navigate (ethically) the buying of necessities (or other much needed items) and directly taking $200m from the Saudi regime.


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## woofers (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ok then. Do you not buy a single thing from China?

Where does your petrol / diesel come from?

Just wondering how those stack up on the old morals
		
Click to expand...

1. I try not to, if I can see that I have a choice.
2. Don’t know where the diesel I got at Tesco’s yesterday came from, but don’t think I can be too choosy on that one?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To be fair, there's a difference between the general public trying to navigate (ethically) the buying of necessities (or other much needed items) and directly taking $200m from the Saudi regime.
		
Click to expand...

My second hand smart phone is made in South Korea BTW 😂


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Who here supporting LIV would do so if it was Putin funding it?


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

Love a bit of whataboutery


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To be fair, there's a difference between the general public trying to navigate (ethically) the buying of necessities (or other much needed items) and directly taking $200m from the Saudi regime.
		
Click to expand...

Bang on


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To be fair, there's a difference between the general public trying to navigate (ethically) the buying of necessities (or other much needed items) and directly taking $200m from the Saudi regime.
		
Click to expand...

How convenient


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## Ethan (Jun 8, 2022)

rksquire said:



			I prefer balanced, impartial reporting and journalism, and let the people decide - but that's just me.  It's clear now that the parties starting to get involved are legitimizing it as a golf tournament / venture / spectacle.  The issue around gender equality, homosexuality, human right records however remain a massive issue and cannot be legitimized by throwing money at it.  Does this do that?  The outrage is the tokenism that has been thrown at it across other sports, and it will only be token notes in December whilst the World Cup is on, without the same anger being directed at, say, Lewis Hamilton, Harry Kane, Tyson Fury (WWE), etc.

Apart from the fact that Sinn Fein is a political party and couldn't sponsor the NI Open, Sinn Fein is a perfectly legitimate party with no links or say in any other organization so see no reason why he wouldn't participate.  Sinn Fein, amongst others, have been very favorable and helpful in not only bringing the Irish Open to NI venues and helping secure funding for the NI Open but in bringing the Open to Portrush.  Maybe I'm missing something with regard to GMac and / or Sinn Fein?
		
Click to expand...

The point, which I am sure an erudite fellow like yourself will have easily got, is that it is easy to deflect criticism by saying 'I am not a politician' but is also rather disingenuous. My point is that it would not be hard to provoke a political response from GMac (who I guarantee is not a SF supporter) or any of the other golfers involved, despite all their protestations that they are just simple golfers plying their trade. Maybe they need a really important political issue like tax to respond, rather than state-sanctioned assassination.

I would have some respect for a player like Bland who admitted he was near the end of his peak powers, has been a journeyman for much of his career, and wants to cash in pronto. He hasn't been NetJetting all over the world like some of the others. Some of these others guys are very wealthy by any reasonable standards, and some, like Phil are just greedy people who will never have enough money, some of which is to pay off gambling debts to shady characters.

I think much of the reporting has been impartial and balanced, although you should beware thinking you would recognise it when you get it. They report stuff that Greg Norman says which is not very balanced, that isn't down to the media, and some of the press know more about the stories that have not come out yet.

I don't approve of the World Cup going to Qatar either.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Who here supporting LIV would do so if it was Putin funding it?
		
Click to expand...

Putin has been finding the UK government for years. I take it none of us vote Conservative?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			How convenient 

Click to expand...

Your attempt at moral equivalence is duly noted. 👌


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Love a bit of whataboutery
		
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what the term sportswashing is.. might aswell shout fake news in the debate.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Putin has been finding the UK government for years. I take it none of us vote Conservative?
		
Click to expand...

Admitting to that is fast becoming like trying to find someone who supported the invasion of Iraq. 😁


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 8, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Not really read this thread but for me there is no stopping this Liv Golf Tour Juggernaut, more top players are going to switch and that will bring a tipping point for the top players still left on the PGA tour.
It's only my opinion but I see a situation within 2 years (probably less) where most top players are on the LIV Tour and play the majors as Extra events.
The majors can't be majors without the major players so I don't see them being banned from playing in them if the above happens.
		
Click to expand...

Only took 2 days for my prediction to start happening. 
Today Bryson And Patrick. 
More will follow, nothing more certain. 
I expect more to announce they are playing in the 2nd event. 
Im predicting Brooks will be coming across soon. 

If PGA Tour bans them all, the players can just say OK, I'm fine here thanks and where does the PGA Tour go from there. 
Without the top players there is no PGA Tour.... 

The PGA Tour may have to change its stance to coexist to survive.. 

Going to be fascinating to see how this plays out..


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Who here supporting LIV would do so if it was Putin funding it?
		
Click to expand...

Clearly a situation that wouldn't happen given all the other obvious obstacles that would have that don't apply to Saudi Arabia at the moment.

Personally, I'm not supporting LIV, and initially felt it would fall flat. Now I am intrigued with the impact it may have longer term. 

If, in a weird hypothetical world it was Russian funded, I would be just as intrigued. And, if more and more top players played, might even enjoy it from a golfing perspective. However, I'd still confidently dislike Putin. I wouldn't start thinking he is a great guy because I enjoy the golf he funded.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 8, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Love a bit of whataboutery
		
Click to expand...

Ethics is interesting. Hypothetical questions are paramount in ethical discussion. "Whataboutery" seems to be a way of saying "My morals are questionable, so I'll avoid the question".

I mean it's fine to side with Saudi and Putin, maybe even Trump and his golf courses. It's just money and nothing really matters....


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Clearly a situation that wouldn't happen given all the other obvious obstacles that would have that don't apply to Saudi Arabia at the moment.

Personally, I'm not supporting LIV, and initially felt it would fall flat. Now I am intrigued with the impact it may have longer term.

If, in a weird hypothetical world it was Russian funded, I would be just as intrigued. And, if more and more top players played, might even enjoy it from a golfing perspective. However, I'd still confidently dislike Putin. I wouldn't start thinking he is a great guy because I enjoy the golf he funded.
		
Click to expand...

Makes me laugh how watching it will suddenly make us think those Saudis are a bit of alright you know


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The point, which I am sure an erudite fellow like yourself will have easily got, is that it is easy to deflect criticism by saying 'I am not a politician' but is also rather disingenuous. My point is that it would not be hard to provoke a political response from GMac (who I guarantee is not a SF supporter) or any of the other golfers involved, despite all their protestations that they are just simple golfers plying their trade. Maybe they need a really important political issue like tax to respond, rather than state-sanctioned assassination.

I would have some respect for a player like Bland who admitted he was near the end of his peak powers, has been a journeyman for much of his career, and wants to cash in pronto. He hasn't been nNetJetting all over the world like some of the others. Some of these others guys are very wealthy by any reasonable standards, and some, like Phil are just greedy people who will never have enough money, some of which is to pay off gambling debts to shady characters.

I think much of the reporting has been impartial and balanced, although you should beware thinking you would recognise it when you get it. They report stuff that Greg Norman says which is not very balanced, that isn't down to the media, and some of the press know more about the stories that have not come out yet.

I don't approve of the World Cup going to Qatar either.
		
Click to expand...

If you are suggesting Phil needs the money to pay off gambling debts to shady people, then he doesn't currently have enough money as it stands? Gambling addiction, I believe, is an illness. So maybe it is unfair to call him greedy, rather his addiction causes him to gamble his money away?

P.S. I don't know what Phil spends his money on, I just interpreted from your post that he has more money than he needs and is just greedy, yet implied he wants the extra money to pay off debts.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Makes me laugh how watching it will suddenly make us think those Saudis are a bit of alright you know
		
Click to expand...

I know. But some people like to.paint that picture, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves.

If anything, I reckon LIV will probably force Saudis hand over the years to clean up their act. After all, it puts these atrocities firmly in the limelight. Surely if we just ignored them, they'd more than likely just continue doing what they do, whilst building a bigger hatred towards the western world? I can't imagine the opposite is true where they think "oh good, Westwood has said yes to play in our golf event, let's go and murder another journalist as he clearly accepts our shady practices"


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## Imurg (Jun 8, 2022)

So.........Bryson and FatPat are in....

Who gets dumped back to the Pauper's table..?
Short-lived money-spinner for some.....


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So.........Bryson and FatPat are in....

Who gets dumped back to the Pauper's table..?
Short-lived money-spinner for some.....
		
Click to expand...

I reckon the amateurs will drop down.. but they won't be at this one?


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## larmen (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Makes me laugh how watching it will suddenly make us think those Saudis are a bit of alright you know
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t image transfer what sponsorship is about? Having a not nice brand aligning themselves with someone nicer for a benefit against some costs.

When is the last time you have ordered a Carling? ;-)


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## Backache (Jun 8, 2022)

The ranking of competitors goes quite low . I'm pretty sure I saw G1z1 on the list following his medal.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Backache said:



			The ranking of competitors goes quite low . I'm pretty sure I saw G1z1 on the list following his medal.
		
Click to expand...

He'll be hoping to hold onto that 26 handicap before it starts


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

I've heard the caddies are getting all travel costs covered, meals and lodgings covered 

No matter what happens maybe the PGA tour needs to look into how it looks after people.


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've heard the caddies are getting all travel costs covered, meals and lodgings covered 

No matter what happens maybe the PGA tour needs to look into how it looks after people.
		
Click to expand...

At least the lads at the PIF are looking after the caddies shame they don’t care about the kids in Yemen


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

Depreston said:



			At least the lads at the PIF are looking after the caddies shame they don’t care about the kids in Yemen
		
Click to expand...

Yet the PGA is funded by American money yes? Illegal wars over oil ..

Yeah cleaner than clean..

Those in glass houses.


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2022)

So, all those who moan about crazy low scores at every pga tournament, will they applaud when the duffers are only shooting 3 under 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To be fair, there's a difference between the general public trying to navigate (ethically) the buying of necessities (or other much needed items) and directly taking $200m from the Saudi regime.
		
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It’s all just whataboutary 

We all know the players are doing it for the money and that they don’t care where the money is coming from 

There will be some that will turn down the money because of where it’s coming from 

I have been offered jobs in Saudi working for BAE and turned it down - i wouldn’t want be anywhere near involved in the country for my own personal reasons and it includes their human rights issues 

I have no interest in any sporting event they are involved in and Imo it was wrong they were allowed to buy Newcastle 

We have also seen how hypocritical the LET is by getting into bed with the Saudis despite the way they treat women but they ignored that for the drop of a couple million

It’s not different to Qatar buying the World Cup that many were disgusted with 



Swango1980 said:



			I know. But some people like to.paint that picture, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves.

If anything, I reckon LIV will probably force Saudis hand over the years to clean up their act. After all, it puts these atrocities firmly in the limelight. Surely if we just ignored them, they'd more than likely just continue doing what they do, whilst building a bigger hatred towards the western world? I can't imagine the opposite is true where they think "oh good, Westwood has said yes to play in our golf event, let's go and murder another journalist as he clearly accepts our shady practices"
		
Click to expand...

Saudi is run by Sharia Law - they won’t change a thing just as Qatar or UAE haven’t changed a thing over the years - they will still treat homosexuality as a crime worthy of beheading , will still treat females as second class citizens. None of that will change because of a golf tour


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## Ethan (Jun 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you are suggesting Phil needs the money to pay off gambling debts to shady people, then he doesn't currently have enough money as it stands? Gambling addiction, I believe, is an illness. So maybe it is unfair to call him greedy, rather his addiction causes him to gamble his money away?

P.S. I don't know what Phil spends his money on, I just interpreted from your post that he has more money than he needs and is just greedy, yet implied he wants the extra money to pay off debts.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't really an illness for the great majority. Phil now says he is financially secure. His blew $40m on gambling at his peak, but his net worth is around 10 times that. He has also been caught up in an insider trading scheme, and buys lots of lavish stuff. The issue with the dodgy bookie was more illustrative of his recklessness.

He doesn't need Saudi money, he just likes money a lot.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet the PGA is funded by American money yes? Illegal wars over oil ..

Yeah cleaner than clean..

Those in glass houses.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2022)

I can’t believe Justin Rose hasn’t jumped on board.
Has Casey signed up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet the PGA is funded by American money yes? Illegal wars over oil ..

Yeah cleaner than clean..

Those in glass houses.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but which PGA events funded by illegal wars ? 

These are the PGA Tour partners - 

https://www.pgatour.com/company/omps.html

Which companies are run by the US Government?


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet the PGA is funded by American money yes? Illegal wars over oil ..

Yeah cleaner than clean..

Those in glass houses.
		
Click to expand...

and old Joe Biden is off to Saudi in the next few weeks,  "amid a shift in tone towards the Kingdom". Perhaps he will get the same treatment off the journo's that the golfers are getting, then again perhaps not.


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			and old Joe Biden is off to Saudi in the next few weeks,  "amid a shift in tone towards the Kingdom". Perhaps he will get the same treatment off the journo's that the golfers are getting, then again perhaps not.
		
Click to expand...

The forum would explode, were we allowed to talk about politics 😂😂😂


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## Depreston (Jun 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but which PGA events funded by illegal wars ? 

These are the PGA Tour partners - 

https://www.pgatour.com/company/omps.html

Which companies are run by the US Government?
		
Click to expand...


Would also be interested in knowing if any PGA owned planes had flew a few assassins to kill a journalist


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## BiMGuy (Jun 8, 2022)

I bet it’s crippling Phil’s fragile ego to know that Tiger was probably offered more than the rest of them combined to join up.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 8, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The forum would explode, were we allowed to talk about politics 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Good job we're talking about golf then


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534618024870825985


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## Canary Kid (Jun 8, 2022)

Can someone please get rid of this freakin’ banner advertising LIV at the bottom of the screen 😡😡


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534618024870825985

Click to expand...

Is that in the good old U S of A?
Asking for a friend.


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Is that in the good old U S of A?
Asking for a friend.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure the septics are fans of AK47s, they’re more AR15 types.


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## Canary_Yellow (Jun 8, 2022)

Being honest, I’d play in it if I could. But I’m talking from the perspective of someone that the prize money on offer from just one event would be life changing.

Hard to know how I’d feel if I was in poulter / DJ / mickelson / Westwood’s position.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 8, 2022)

Be interesting to see what happens over the next few months to players that have come out and defended playing the PGA and gone against LIV like Rory, Rahm, Morikawa etc. I'd guess also that the more experienced pros that play and move from the PGA to LIV that younger inexperienced players could potentially get the boot and have to try return to play the PGA more to possibly earn their cards and make a living. 

Interesting times over the next year. It looks like it will test the Ryder cup friendships and see if they are all buddies in the end.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534565956760047616


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## SyR (Jun 8, 2022)

The PGA have to change if they want to continue to be the dominant tour. If the money continues to flow into LIV Golf for the next few years, then the PGA will bleed more players.
I also find it interesting that morals are being brought up. Golf has had it's fair share of dodgy sponsors over the years, all the tobacco companies in the 80's, oil companies like ExxonMobil that have been linked to murder and torture in the Far East. We can't just pretend that LIV / Saudi Government are the first immoral sponsor in Golf. Also people mentioning Yemen, should also accept that UK / USA have been heavily involved in the Saudi operation there.


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## Jason.H (Jun 8, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Be interesting to see what happens over the next few months to players that have come out and defended playing the PGA and gone against LIV like Rory, Rahm, Morikawa etc. I'd guess also that the more experienced pros that play and move from the PGA to LIV that younger inexperienced players could potentially get the boot and have to try return to play the PGA more to possibly earn their cards and make a living.

Interesting times over the next year. It looks like it will test the Ryder cup friendships and see if they are all buddies in the end.
		
Click to expand...

That 1st interview about LIV with McIlroy he was totally against it, then the next one I seen he was more accepting about it I think because a lot of his friends are going.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 8, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			That 1st interview about LIV with McIlroy he was totally against it, then the next one I seen he was more accepting about it I think because a lot of his friends are going.
		
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Maybe he doesn't want to appear to be a judgemental so and so, and instead is trying to see it from other peoples perspective. He might have concluded that, although he decided against it himself, the guys who have joined up are probably not actually evil, arrogant, greedy human beings like some of us like to believe. He probably knows some of them quite well also, so is in a better position to know what they're like. 

And, let's be honest, when he first made his comments of course he was likely to show his loyalty to the PGA. He still does. And his decision to not join LIV demonstrated that. But, I am sure he is also aware things can change in life. If a time comes where every top pro is playing LIV, he doesn't want journalists throwing his past words in his face saying he'd never participate no matter what. If he could solely decide the future of golf by pressing a button, I'm sure he'd press the PGA button. But that decision won't really be in his control if everyone gets involved with LIV.


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			So, probably anywhere if the money is right then ! Get the Colombian Series supported by The Gulf Cartel and friends of Escobar up and running !! 😄
		
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So what is your take on the players who played in the Middle East the last few years and will be there later this year ?

or you just sweep that under the carpet ?


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

GGTTH said:



			Every single golfer that is taking part in this is an absolute dick. Make no bones about it.
		
Click to expand...

Just like Rory Tiger etc for playing in China and the Middle East or do they get a pass.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but which PGA events funded by illegal wars ?

*These are the PGA Tour partners -*

https://www.pgatour.com/company/omps.html

Which companies are run by the US Government?
		
Click to expand...

At least one of them has Saudi investement...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/16/saudi-sovereign-fund-discloses-stakes-in-citi-boeing-facebook.html


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## Oddsocks (Jun 9, 2022)

Ok, I’ll throw a swerve ball in here. 

We have to cast aside the source of money supporting this series as 95% of sporting disciplines accept sponsorship in some form from a Saudi source.

Is LIV/F1/boxing/football and other high profile events exactly what is needed to force change?  

When F1 went to Saudi there was a lot of media coverage around human rights including women’s rights and the discussion of change was at the forefront of most interviews with the media.  I haven’t followed boxing or football but again with other sports that I do follow I know they are always pushing the same “ must change “ drive.  

A high profile golf league just further highlights past events and rights and will hopefully force change to happen at a faster pace.

No one can change the past, but high profile sports with global followings may influence the future changes and the rate in which these changes happen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok, I’ll throw a swerve ball in here.

We have to cast aside the source of money supporting this series as 95% of sporting disciplines accept sponsorship in some form from a Saudi source.

Is LIV/F1/boxing/football and other high profile events exactly what is needed to force change? 

When F1 went to Saudi there was a lot of media coverage around human rights including women’s rights and the discussion of change was at the forefront of most interviews with the media.  I haven’t followed boxing or football but again with other sports that I do follow I know they are always pushing the same “ must change “ drive. 

A high profile golf league just further highlights past events and rights and will hopefully force change to happen at a faster pace.

No one can change the past, but high profile sports with global followings may influence the future changes and the rate in which these changes happen.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed 

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change 

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc


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## Jason.H (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc
		
Click to expand...

Strange not much is said of the Aramco Team series sanctioned by the Ladies European tour. The ladies seem to be very accepting of the Saudi money and no one even mentions that.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

Pressure was undoubtedly put on South Africas apartheid by not engaging in sport with the country, not by maintaining sporting links.

But I think the politics and morality are a red herring re LIV. Just being used by some to muddy the water, and by journalists to force headlineworthy comments from players. There is a lot of hypocrisy in the charges being levelled at the players.

The single, and key golfing issue that is a risk to the game - and I mean the professional gof as sporting entertainment, not the game as played by the other 99.99999% if us for whom pro golf is irrelevant - is the splitting of the worlds top golfer into two camps. There cannot be two world number ones. Field quality will be impaired. If players are excluded from it, the Ryder Cup is dead. If players are excluded from any majors, they would be dead, though I dont think it will come to that one - no major wants to commit sporting suicide.


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## BrianM (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed 

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change 

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc
		
Click to expand...

Have a day off, you’ve always got this Holier than thou attitude where if people don’t agree with you, their moral compass is below yours.
These guys do it for a living, it’s their job, they have a right to earn as much as possible (just like us), what they have or haven’t got monetary wise is irrelevant.


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## Jason.H (Jun 9, 2022)

So is it best for the global sport to be controlled by the PGA? There are so many great golfers across the world that will never get to earn money on the PGA because the field is so limited. Only half the field earn any money  and the regular winners FairPlay to them have a fortune.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

Nothing has changed in the middle east and nothing will change, even though changes have happened. There's a long way to go of course, but any step in the right direction is a positive.


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## HeftyHacker (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc
		
Click to expand...

I think you'd be surprised, the young Saudi's I deal with on a regular basis are much less Conservative. At some point that will filter upwards, the change in a generation is quite already quite stark according to those who have worked with them a long time.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			At least one of them has Saudi investement...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/16/saudi-sovereign-fund-discloses-stakes-in-citi-boeing-facebook.html

Click to expand...

And ofc the point was missed.. the money these sponsors make is it completely 100% ethical .. don't even think for a min any one of them is completely whiter than white 

Just doesn't happen.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Strange not much is said of the Aramco Team series sanctioned by the Ladies European tour. The ladies seem to be very accepting of the Saudi money and no one even mentions that.
		
Click to expand...

That's because it doesn't suit the agenda


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

So far, all the LIV has done with all its controversy and world headlines, is highlight to even more people what a shit country Saudi Arabia is. So much for sportswashing. Rights activists must delighted to watch this ongoing own goal by SA.


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## BrianM (Jun 9, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I think you'd be surprised, the young Saudi's I deal with on a regular basis are much less Conservative. At some point that will filter upwards, the change in a generation is quite already quite stark according to those who have worked with them a long time.
		
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I’d agree with this, I’ve worked with a lot of guys from the Middle East through oil and gas, my personal opinion is it’s easy to stereotype someone without really knowing.
I’ve also been on holiday almost every year since 2008 to the Middle East.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc
		
Click to expand...

There is a country where women's rights are being eroded, not protected. Which was 7th in the world on the league table of executions in 2018. Where racism abounds and the rights of black people are abused almost daily. Yes, welcome to America.

Guantánamo Bay, a prison on foreign soil where the US can and do torture and abuse prisoners without a trial.

A country whose external security arm regularly carry out human rights atrocities on behalf of their government. The CIA just don't get caught very often.

I'm guessing you missed the post as you didn't respond to it (he was quoting you), but Mr Smooth states above that some of those partners of the PGA Tour have Saudi money behind them. Some Tour events are sponsored by Saudi money.

I am not defending Saudi Arabia, but the hypocrisy in the media reporting and in this forum and others is staggering. As I said in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see what flak Joe Biden gets when he goes visiting Saudi.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So far, all the LIV has done with all its controversy and world headlines, is highlight to even more people what a shit country Saudi Arabia is. So much for sportswashing. Rights activists must delighted to watch this ongoing own goal by SA.
		
Click to expand...

It seems to be three camps on the thread..

Dead against the entire thing 

Interesting to see what happens

All for it

but all 3 of these camps are in agreement that SA isnt good... so its like have a day off.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing has changed at any of the Middle East states and nothing will change - they have been having sporting events there for decades and the society there beyond the rich hasn’t changed 

Their human rights there are shocking as is the treatment of females and of course the LGBQT community- that’s not going to change 

You only have to see social media and see how they react to Pride month and what happens when they see the rainbow flag etc
		
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed? Despite the fact I admit not being an expert on Saudi Arabian culture, I know women were finally permitted to drive. No doubt massive changes are still required, but to simply cry out nothing has changed seems ignorant to the extreme. Probably need to caveat those statements better.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’d agree with this, I’ve worked with a lot of guys from the Middle East through oil and gas, my personal opinion is it’s easy to stereotype someone without really knowing.
I’ve also been on holiday almost every year since 2008 to the Middle East.
		
Click to expand...

Don't admit to that. People will question your morals


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## evemccc (Jun 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have a day off, you’ve always got this Holier than thou attitude
		
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Well, he does support Liverpool FC…🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			There is a country where women's rights are being eroded, not protected. Which was 7th in the world on the league table of executions in 2018. Where racism abounds and the rights of black people are abused almost daily. Yes, welcome to America.

Guantánamo Bay, a prison on foreign soil where the US can and do torture and abuse prisoners without a trial.

A country whose external security arm regularly carry out human rights atrocities on behalf of their government. The CIA just don't get caught very often.

I'm guessing you missed the post as you didn't respond to it (he was quoting you), but Mr Smooth states above that some of those partners of the PGA Tour have Saudi money behind them. Some Tour events are sponsored by Saudi money.

I am not defending Saudi Arabia, but the hypocrisy in the media reporting and in this forum and others is staggering. As I said in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see what flak Joe Biden gets when he goes visiting Saudi.
		
Click to expand...

Why does everyone keep going 

But what about this sponser 

What about this country 

What about this 

What about that ? 

I can’t recall people stating that the PGA tour is 100% perfect - in fact we have had many topics over the years about the issues with the PGA tour 

Same when the ET became the DP world tour - people expressed issues 

Same with when the LET took the Saudi money 

I can’t see anyone saying how everything else is perfect apart from Saudi Arabia ?

But is that the only defence people have - what about … 

And the PGA gets sponsership from companies - LIV tour is sponsered directly from the state - a state that not so long ago murdered a journalist - I can’t recall any of the PGA tour sponsers killing people?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does everyone keep going

But what about this sponser

What about this country

What about this

What about that ?

I can’t recall people stating that the PGA tour is 100% perfect - in fact we have had many topics over the years about the issues with the PGA tour

Same when the ET became the DP world tour - people expressed issues

Same with when the LET took the Saudi money

I can’t see anyone saying how everything else is perfect apart from Saudi Arabia ?

But is that the only defence people have - what about …

And the PGA gets sponsership from companies - LIV tour is sponsered directly from the state - a state that not so long ago murdered a journalist - I can’t recall any of the PGA tour sponsers killing people?
		
Click to expand...

for crying out load not ONE person has said SA is perfect.. nobody at all. now you are making rubbish up to support your failing point

infact id say everyone has said their pretty bad.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does everyone keep going

But what about this sponser

What about this country

What about this

What about that ?

I can’t recall people stating that the PGA tour is 100% perfect - in fact we have had many topics over the years about the issues with the PGA tour

Same when the ET became the DP world tour - people expressed issues

Same with when the LET took the Saudi money

I can’t see anyone saying how everything else is perfect apart from Saudi Arabia ?

But is that the only defence people have - what about …

And the PGA gets sponsership from companies - LIV tour is sponsered directly from the state - a state that not so long ago murdered a journalist - I can’t recall any of the PGA tour sponsers killing people?
		
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And that's your best?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			And that's your best?
		
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give it 10 mins he needs to contact his groupies on the group chat to come back him up...

check back at half past.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			for crying out load not ONE person has said SA is perfect.. nobody at all. now you are making rubbish up to support your failing point

infact id say everyone has said their pretty bad.
		
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🤷‍♂️ Where did I say anyone said SA is perfect 🤷‍♂️

Any time someone posts something critical about the LIV tour the likes of you just post “whataboutary” - it’s as simple as that - hence why you started dribbling on about the PGA Tour sponsers or start going about people buying things from China etc etc - it’s just all whataboutary

Saudi Arabia is a disgusting regime and LIV Tour is directly funded by that regime - tbe players don’t care about that because they are being paid millions - the likes of Mickleson, Poulter and Co are happy to ignore the atrocities and human rights issues from the regime because they are making themselves very rich


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ Where did I say anyone said SA is perfect 🤷‍♂️

Any time someone posts something critical about the LIV tour the likes of you just post “whataboutary” - it’s as simple as that - hence why you started dribbling on about the PGA Tour sponsers or start going about people buying things from China etc etc - it’s just all whataboutary

Saudi Arabia is a disgusting regime and LIV Tour is directly funded by that regime - tbe players don’t care about that because they are being paid millions - the likes of Mickleson, Poulter and Co are happy to ignore the atrocities and human rights issues from the regime because they are making themselves very rich
		
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FAKE NEWS


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			And that's your best?
		
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I didn’t realise it was a competition

And what else was your purpose to bring in the US ? Apart from whataboutary? 


pauljames87 said:



			give it 10 mins he needs to contact his groupies on the group chat to come back him up...

check back at half past.
		
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why do you also need to post snidey comments ?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ Where did I say anyone said SA is perfect 🤷‍♂️

Any time someone posts something critical about the LIV tour the likes of you just post “whataboutary” - it’s as simple as that - hence why you started dribbling on about the PGA Tour sponsers or start going about people buying things from China etc etc - it’s just all whataboutary

Saudi Arabia is a disgusting regime and LIV Tour is directly funded by that regime - tbe players don’t care about that because they are being paid millions - the likes of Mickleson, Poulter and Co are happy to ignore the atrocities and human rights issues from the regime because they are making themselves very rich
		
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You are unbelievable at writing your own narrative. 

Those golfers have actively spoken out against human rights atrocities, yet tou say they ignore it.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are unbelievable at writing your own narrative.

Those golfers have actively spoken out against human rights atrocities, yet tou say they ignore it.
		
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doesnt suit the agenda.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are unbelievable at writing your own narrative.

Those golfers have actively spoken out against human rights atrocities, yet tou say they ignore it.
		
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Yet they are more than happy to take millions from them 🤷‍♂️ Maybe actions is more than the spoken word . 

Are they not there for the money then ?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet they are more than happy to take millions from them 🤷‍♂️ Maybe actions is more than the spoken word . 

Are they not there for the money then ?
		
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Indeed they are. And they have also admitted that as well.

However, your narrative directly links them earning money as part of their profession, and their attitude to human rights issues. It is a ridiculously simplistic argument from someone desperate to take the moral high ground.

As I said before, I wouldn't judge someone who wishes to go and work in the Middle East to make money, or go on holiday. I wouldn't be silly enough to assume such an act is a stain on their morals. 

And, you keep saying SA will never change anyway. Even if that were true (and you ignore all the counter arguments), then who cares whether a golfer plays or not? By your own argument, it makes no difference.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed they are. And they have also admitted that as well.

However, your narrative directly links them earning money as part of their profession, and their attitude to human rights issues. It is a ridiculously simplistic argument from someone desperate to take the moral high ground.

As I said before, I wouldn't judge someone who wishes to go and work in the Middle East to make money, or go on holiday. I wouldn't be silly enough to assume such an act is a stain on their morals.

And, you keep saying SA will never change anyway. Even if that were true (and you ignore all the counter arguments), then who cares whether a golfer plays or not? By your own argument, it makes no difference.
		
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the way he is banging on you would think that Phil has to do one of his famous flop shots but with peoples heads ...


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because it doesn't suit the agenda
		
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It’s a literal example of sportswashing 

But you’ll just scream FAKE NEWS again


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ Where did I say anyone said SA is perfect 🤷‍♂️

Any time someone posts something critical about the LIV tour the likes of you just post “whataboutary” - it’s as simple as that - hence why you started dribbling on about the PGA Tour sponsers or start going about people buying things from China etc etc - it’s just all whataboutary

Saudi Arabia is a disgusting regime and LIV Tour is directly funded by that regime - tbe players don’t care about that because they are being paid millions - the likes of Mickleson, Poulter and Co are happy to ignore the atrocities and human rights issues from the regime because they are making themselves very rich
		
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Just like Rory Tiger etc...who take appearance money to play there, but no comment on them, why is that I wonder ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			It’s a literal example of sportswashing

But you’ll just scream FAKE NEWS again
		
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As I have  stated. "sportswashing" is a myth. nobody is coming out of this thinking those saudis there alright you know. Its being used by people who are Anti LIV for reasons like not liking the format.. or change full stop and just suits the agenda to try and play a moral card...


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does everyone keep going

But what about this sponser

What about this country

What about this

What about that ?

I can’t recall people stating that the PGA tour is 100% perfect - in fact we have had many topics over the years about the issues with the PGA tour

Same when the ET became the DP world tour - people expressed issues

Same with when the LET took the Saudi money

I can’t see anyone saying how everything else is perfect apart from Saudi Arabia ?

But is that the only defence people have - what about …

And the PGA gets sponsership from companies - LIV tour is sponsered directly from the state - a state that not so long ago murdered a journalist - I can’t recall any of the PGA tour sponsers killing people?
		
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It seems to me that people start talking about "whataboutery" when they can't or don't want to respond to the points that were put to them.

I was simply pointing out the similarities between the USA and SA. The fact is the players on the LIV are playing on a tour supported by one barbaric country, Saudi Arabia. Rory is playing on a tour supported by two barbaric counties, the United States and Saudi Arabia.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			It seems to me that people start talking about "whataboutery" when they can't or don't want to respond to the points that were put to them.

I was simply pointing out the similarities between the USA and SA. The fact is the players on the LIV are playing on a tour supported by one barbaric country, Saudi Arabia. Rory is playing on a tour supported by two barbaric counties, the United States and Saudi Arabia.
		
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lets all jump on the Faux outrage bandwagon


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed they are. And they have also admitted that as well.

However, your narrative directly links them earning money as part of their profession, and their attitude to human rights issues. It is a ridiculously simplistic argument from someone desperate to take the moral high ground.

As I said before, I wouldn't judge someone who wishes to go and work in the Middle East to make money, or go on holiday. I wouldn't be silly enough to assume such an act is a stain on their morals.

And, you keep saying SA will never change anyway. Even if that were true (and you ignore all the counter arguments), then who cares whether a golfer plays or not? By your own argument, it makes no difference.
		
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It’s quite clear Imo - the money for the LIV is coming directly from the Saudi Regime , it’s not a private company , it’s state owned and the players know that yet are more than happy to take the coin - it is there choice but imo it also means they are happy to ignore the actions of that state including the state sponsered murder of a journalist which of course Norman called a “mistake”

It’s also why the players avoided the question yesterday and looked uncomfortable when asked is there anywhere they wouldn’t play for money


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s also why the players avoided the question yesterday and looked uncomfortable when asked is there anywhere they wouldn’t play for money
		
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which was pure whataboutary wasnt it...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Just like Rory Tiger etc...who take appearance money to play there, but no comment on them, why is that I wonder ?
		
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There has been plenty of comments in the past about many players taking appearance money from the likes of Saudi Arabia 



Golfnut1957 said:



			It seems to me that people start talking about "whataboutery" when they can't or don't want to respond to the points that were put to them.

I was simply pointing out the similarities between the USA and SA. The fact is the players on the LIV are playing on a tour supported by one barbaric country, Saudi Arabia. Rory is playing on a tour supported by two barbaric counties, the United States and Saudi Arabia.
		
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Sorry I didn’t realise that the PGA Tour was funded directly by the US Government 

Your points are valid if the conversation was about the state of the USA and the issues they have


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## Jimaroid (Jun 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534775352182157313
Worth a watch.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			As I have  stated. "sportswashing" is a myth. nobody is coming out of this thinking those saudis there alright you know. Its being used by people who are Anti LIV for reasons like not liking the format.. or change full stop and just suits the agenda to try and play a moral card...
		
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Sportswashing isn’t a myth at all 

Since Khashoggi got butchered Saudi Arabia have pumped billions into the world of sport to clean up their image with the end goal of  encouraging people to visit 

There will have been negativity around almost every initial play they’ve done 

Saudi events on the European tour/LET - like you say no one really mentions that - job done 

WWE - massive negative press around the initial deal it’s now just an accepted part of the schedule and for wrestling fans enjoyable 

Boxing - again massive complaints when Joshua was over there and Fury but people will soon accept it as the norm and probably start heading over there if Fury v Joshua fought

F1 - same thing bad press but it’ll soon be part of the F1 calendar and will barely get a headline 

LIVGolf the furore will die down and in a few years if successful it’ll be positive press from the sports writers 

Newcastle - massive press about the takeover when they win their first league it might get mentioned but 5 or 10 years and a few league titles and champions league campaigns like City… it’ll probably be talked up in a good light like all the positivity city group get around the investment in Manchester 

That is Sportswashing and all the Middle East countries have done it expertly with still questionable human right exercises 

People saying Sportswashing is a myth because all the negativity is brought to the front… yes but it soon becomes less noise and Saudi Arabia are left with great sporting events and a tourism boost and the tired journos have moved onto the next problem it doesn’t sit right with me that any country can use sport as a pawn in this way


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## BiMGuy (Jun 9, 2022)

I suspect there are a good few on here who quite admire the way that KSA is ruled.

Everyone but straight adult men are considered second class citizens and they don’t mind a bit of corporal and capital punishment.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I suspect there are a good few on here who quite admire the way that KSA is ruled.

Everyone but straight adult men are considered second class citizens and they don’t mind a bit of corporal and capital punishment.
		
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Well the majority of the country have that view in terms of the way they want their country run.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think the big difference with tennis is that both Men and Women play simultaneously within the same overall tournament. So, someone tunes in to watch Wimbledon, US Open, etc. they could just as easily be watching a mens match or womens match when they tune in. You could argue the same with athletics. When we tune in to watch the Olympics, there will be both male and female events. In tennis, it is also probably harder for the viewer to distinguish between the physical advantages men have over women. Maybe they do in serving, but powerful serves and aces probably are not overly appealing for viewers anyway.

However, with other sports men and women do not play together. Perhaps if, for example, Masters weekend had both the mens event and womens event (along with all other big tournaments), then the ladies game would get more exposure. However, probably unlikely due to the length of time it takes to play golf (and the fact the tournament is only 4 days), and no one would want them to played completely in parallel as they'd be competing for viewing time. Could maybe do it for football easier. The World Cup could feature both the mens and womens game during the month. No doubt the mens game would still be more popular (certainly to begin with), but I'm sure more would also tune in to watch some of the ladies games, and it could grow from there.
		
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Well I'm going to watch the England Ladies Euros at the Amex stadium on the 11th July!
Getting quite excited! 🏟️👍Football that is.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Just seen James Wiltshire’s uploaded a video of DJs practice or pro am round 110k views in 12 hours


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Just seen James Wiltshire’s uploaded a video of DJs practice or pro am round 110k views in 12 hours
		
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All of them kids, who've never watched golf before, but because it's on the interweb they now love it?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			All of them kids, who've never watched golf before, but because it's on the interweb they now love it?
		
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I was listening to Rick shiels podcast yesterday and he said something ive never even heard of or considered before. Just shows how much golf has changed.

There are people out there that consider themselves golfers, who have never set foot on a course. Own top clubs and just play at the range.. that to them is golf.. 

now I know purists wont see that as golf but its just how the game is evolving and changing.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There are people out there that consider themselves golfers, who have never set foot on a course. Own top clubs and just play at the range.. that to them is golf..
		
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That’s been the case in Japan and South Korea for decades. It’s not a new thing at all.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Just seen James Wiltshire’s uploaded a video of DJs practice or pro am round 110k views in 12 hours
		
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Which is 110k more views than the PGA Tour Pro Am got, just saying.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Which is 110k more views than the PGA Tour Pro Am got, just saying.
		
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Are we calling that a success as some said they wouldn't get 50k views


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Are we calling that a success as some said they wouldn't get 50k views
		
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yeah i think i'm way off on that prediction 

i'm more excited to see the stream numbers through the day than the actual golf


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## Jason.H (Jun 9, 2022)

The G1Z1 thread is much better 😂


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			The G1Z1 thread is much better 😂
		
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he's a helmet


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what is your take on the players who played in the Middle East the last few years and will be there later this year ?

or you just sweep that under the carpet ?
		
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The same, the money is right for them so they go. I wouldn‘t do so. They go because the tour chiefs have organised the tour in the middle east and for some it’s the only earnings they can get. Shame on the tour chiefs, they never get criticised. Judging by your post count you’re relatively new on here, so you won’t have seen my posts calling out Justin Rose for talking crap when he said it was an opportunity for them to experience and see for themselves the issues, or my posts applauding Paul Casey’s stance as UNICEF ambassador and doing the right thing, and then my disappointment at him for changing his mind and taking the saudi dollar.
So, not sweeping it under the carpet. OK?


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## rksquire (Jun 9, 2022)

They (the players) are there for the money.  They are greedy and selfish.  This was as true years ago when they (European contingent) all relocated to Florida etc. and structured their year around the PGA Tour calendar.  The fact they've jumped at the prospect of more cash should not be a surprise.  But I'm still interested.

The Saudi regime and their continued atrocities / views should be roundly condemned.  I have a hard time believing Golfers need to be sole instigators of this, or indeed receive the type of unbalanced media coverage they are getting when the likes of Eddie Howe (I'm just here to manage a football club, I couldn't answer to anything else), Kane, Southgate, Joshua, Fury, Hamilton etc. get an easier time.  Shouldn't Sky and the BBC stop reporting on Newcastle's matches?  Shouldn't those, as football supporters and golf fans, boycott Newcastle matches when their team is playing them, just as they're planning not to watch LIV?

I've no interest really in getting into a political row or any row with @Ethan , that's not really why I come on to the forum, and his comments contribute more more greatly to the forum than mine.  But I can't agree that the pressers have been 'balanced' - I believe hard questions had to be asked, but just like Eddie Howe, these guys aren't politicians.  They are independent contractors following the money.  They're not politicians.  They're greedy.  Seen Justin Thomas's interview yesterday, he was asked about LIV but I remember back to his homophobic slur and how quickly the media moved past this.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s quite clear Imo - the money for the LIV is coming directly from the Saudi Regime , it’s not a private company , it’s state owned and the players know that yet are more than happy to take the coin - it is there choice but imo it also means they are happy to ignore the actions of that state including the state sponsered murder of a journalist which of course Norman called a “mistake”

*It’s also why the players avoided the question yesterday and looked uncomfortable when asked is there anywhere they wouldn’t play for mone*y
		
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Dear me. Of course the players looked uncomfortable answering questions. They are golfers, not politicians. And, even politicians would be uncomfortable answering questions that are designed to make them feel....uncomfortable. This is the media age we live in.

Regardless of what answer they give, there will be people like you who will twist anything they say into your own agenda. They will criticise appalling human rights records, and then people like you will say they ignore human rights issues. Even better if they make a slip of the tongue, like the Greg Norman's mistake comment, and people in the media can have a field day. I didn't even watch that particular interview, but I am told he wasn't literally asked "what did you think of the murder of a journalist", and he directly answered "everyone makes mistakes". It was clear the point he was really trying to make is that we can all improve our ways going forward, whether as individuals or societies, and he was just clumsy in the way he did it. However, people like you no longer care about context. Just stick a few words or statements together, and suddenly you can rip someone's character to pieces without ever knowing them.

But hey, you have the moral high ground so I guess you can judge people as you please without any counter argument allowed.

Anyway, we can moan all day about the human rights record (which we all agree is terrible), but it makes no difference to the main debate. I'm more interested in the implications to how it impacts the game of golf. Is it here to stay? Will more top golfers join? Will the PGA play hard ball, or will they have to concede some ground? After all, as it stands, if they ban the likes of DJ, Bryson, Reed, Fowler along with the other big names, they seriously weaken their brand. When DJ joined, that seemed to be a huge turning point. Even then, some tried to dismiss it as he may well be a has been at the age of 37 and the fact he has had a quiet few months. That was probably clutching at straws. Now Bryson is getting involved, at 28 years old, that really stirs the pot. Like him or loath him, he has clearly been one of the biggest characters on tour in the last year or so. I wonder how much LIV offered him? Reportedly over $100 million. I think he has been robbed, relative to Phil Mickleson anyway who got $200 million. I'd have though Bryson would be a much bigger character to have on LIV based on the stage he is at with his career.


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

Given their opposition stance I've been pondering the question... Does the PGA Tour exist for the players or do the players exist for the PGA Tour?
(It doesn’t sound like it’s a partnership as I understand the term)


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			Given their opposition stance I've been pondering the question... Does the PGA Tour exist for the players or do the players exist for the PGA Tour?
(It doesn’t sound like it’s a partnership as I understand the term)
		
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the PGA only cares about its brand , it doesnt give a rats about the players only that they are the best they can get on board

they want to be the top tour and a monopoly. They dont want to share talent 

im glad the LIV is causing them a headache. maybe they will take note and change a bit


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

rksquire said:



			They (the players) are there for the money.  They are greedy and selfish.  This was as true years ago when they (European contingent) all relocated to Florida etc. and structured their year around the PGA Tour calendar.  The fact they've jumped at the prospect of more cash should not be a surprise.  But I'm still interested.

The Saudi regime and their continued atrocities / views should be roundly condemned.  I have a hard time believing Golfers need to be sole instigators of this, or indeed receive the type of unbalanced media coverage they are getting when the likes of Eddie Howe (I'm just here to manage a football club, I couldn't answer to anything else), Kane, Southgate, Joshua, Fury, Hamilton etc. get an easier time.  *Shouldn't Sky and the BBC stop reporting on Newcastle's matches? * Shouldn't those, as football supporters and golf fans, boycott Newcastle matches when their team is playing them, just as they're planning not to watch LIV?

I've no interest really in getting into a political row or any row with @Ethan , that's not really why I come on to the forum, and his comments contribute more more greatly to the forum than mine.  But I can't agree that the pressers have been 'balanced' - I believe hard questions had to be asked, but just like Eddie Howe, these guys aren't politicians.  They are independent contractors following the money.  They're not politicians.  They're greedy.  Seen Justin Thomas's interview yesterday, he was asked about LIV but I remember back to his homophobic slur and how quickly the media moved past this.
		
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No. However, people can exercise their right to not watch them. And, if enough people do so, I'm sure Sky and the BBC will act upon it to satisfy their viewers. However, if only a handful of people refuse to watch Newcastle games, BBC and Sky will go about their normal business. The world will still go round. Meanwhile, as the Saudi regime is on our doorstep, it will highlight even more the atrocities they commit. Whatever impact that will have on their regime in the long term, who knows? However, I can't believe a Saudi Arabian baby is born evil. They are brainwashed to be that way based on their culture (which of course, they do not see as being evil). However, the more they are exposed to western culture, and their criticism, the more likely it is that young Saudi Arabians will grow up wanting to have a better global image. This doesn't happen overnight. However, it is my belief that it is better this way around, rather than just shutting them off, giving them little to no exposure to our culture, and just letting them to continue doing what they do. 

Regarding Justin Thomas, he apologised for what he said. I can see how he did it. As I grew up as a kid, all sorts of phrases were used to express sudden emotions. Often words like "gay" were thrown around without any thought as to what you were really saying. I assume Thomas did a similar thing, where he instinctively said the word without thinking. I doubt it is because he is homophobic, but I don't know him personally so I can't say that for sure, but I'd say I have enough reasonable doubt to say his expression doesn't provide enough proof that he is. He apologised, move on. What else do we expect? Should the media slate him for at least a year, 2 years, the rest of his career? Should he be sacked and not allowed to play professional golf anymore? Should we send him to prison, maybe even behead him? I'm not generally a big fan of his (just in golfing terms, not really my opinion of his character), but I'm not the type that likes to sharpen my knife any time someone has a slip of the tongue and then apologises for the impression. He also suffered consequences, after all he lost sponsors such as Ralph Lauren and Woodford Reserve. May well have closed the door on future sponsors as well. So, I wouldn't get too worried on the media moving past this. There are always new stories for the media to cover (e.g. LIV tour), so you shouldn't expect them to continue talking about what Thomas said in January 2021.


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Just seen James Wiltshire’s uploaded a video of DJs practice or pro am round 110k views in 12 hours
		
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I was one of those 110K and I have to say that, from an entertainment perspective, I found the video as dull as ditch water.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Crow said:



			I was one of those 110K and I have to say that, from an entertainment perspective, I found the video as dull as ditch water.
		
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would you like to see them play with hickory clubs for one of the rounds?


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			the PGA only cares about its brand ,* it doesnt give a rats about the players only that they are the best they can get on board*

they want to be the top tour and a monopoly. They dont want to share talent

im glad the LIV is causing them a headache. maybe they will take note and change a bit
		
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So they don't pay players when they're injured (for years on end in some cases), and don't have a healthy pension plan in place for them when they retire?


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

So, moving on from the moral rights and wrongs as we have all pretty much said our piece and hopefully can agree to disagree on various stances as there is little to be gained from going round and round over the same ground.

The next questions are: if the big name latecomers who didn’t want the bother of flying over the Atlantic, now join the tour, who gives way? Is there a finite number who can sign up ? If there are only 48 players per event, are the tour numbers restricted to 48, or 60 for example ? And who decides from the 60, or ‘pool’, if they’re all ‘available’ who can play? Is there a waiting list to join the tour ? Could it be liking joining a golf club and finding you can’t get a game? Or does Greg say to the low ranking and amateurs who have bailed him out at Centurion “thanks guys, here’s your money, see you some time when you’re a bigger draw”?


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			So, moving on from the moral rights and wrongs as we have all pretty much said our piece and hopefully can agree to disagree on various stances as there is little to be gained from going round and round over the same ground.

The next questions are: if the big name latecomers who didn’t want the bother of flying over the Atlantic, now join the tour, who gives way? Is there a finite number who can sign up ? If there are only 48 players per event, are the tour numbers restricted to 48, or 60 for example ? And who decides from the 60, or ‘pool’, if they’re all ‘available’ who can play? Is there a waiting list to join the tour ? Could it be liking joining a golf club and finding you can’t get a game? Or does Greg say to the low ranking and amateurs who have bailed him out at Centurion “thanks guys, here’s you money, see you some time when you’re a bigger draw”?
		
Click to expand...

Theres space for 8 more entrants before people start being cut. Only 16 holes of the 18 are in play at any one time this weekend.


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			would you like to see them play with hickory clubs for one of the rounds?
		
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Not particularly, I'd just like to have seen something a little more interesting to watch.
This was like skulking in the background with a video camera.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Crow said:



			Not particularly, I'd just like to have seen something a little more interesting to watch.
This was like skulking in the background with a video camera.
		
Click to expand...

That's just what the kids like...it's new, innovative and dangerous


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			So they don't pay players when they're injured (for years on end in some cases), and don't have a healthy pension plan in place for them when they retire?
		
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so they should be praised for taking some of their prize money and putting it into a pension? 

players have to play 15 events and make the cut .. or finish 150th in the world .. they get deffered income as a pension


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Theres space for 8 more entrants before people start being cut. Only 16 holes of the 18 are in play at any one time this weekend.
		
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No, LIV have specifically stated that it’s 48 players, 12 teams at each event.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			So, moving on from the moral rights and wrongs as we have all pretty much said our piece and hopefully can agree to disagree on various stances as there is little to be gained from going round and round over the same ground.

The next questions are: if the big name latecomers who didn’t want the bother of flying over the Atlantic, now join the tour, who gives way? Is there a finite number who can sign up ? If there are only 48 players per event, are the tour numbers restricted to 48, or 60 for example ? And who decides from the 60, or ‘pool’, if they’re all ‘available’ who can play? Is there a waiting list to join the tour ? Could it be liking joining a golf club and finding you can’t get a game? Or does Greg say to the low ranking and amateurs who have bailed him out at Centurion “thanks guys, here’s your money, see you some time when you’re a bigger draw”?
		
Click to expand...

I think it will be a case of a pool of players ready with the best 48 selected each time

DJ might get injured or busy one week and someone gets drafted in

better tho have 60 players than bang on 48


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			So they don't pay players when they're injured (for years on end in some cases), and don't have a healthy pension plan in place for them when they retire?
		
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Brings an interesting dimension into the employees vs independent contractors discussion……


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I think it will be a case of a pool of players ready with the best 48 selected each time

DJ might get injured or busy one week and someone gets drafted in

better tho have 60 players than bang on 48
		
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So, you can sign up to this tour and not get a game then?
Mel, what’s the answer?


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			the PGA only cares about its brand , it doesnt give a rats about the players only that they are the best they can get on board

they want to be the top tour and a monopoly. They dont want to share talent

im glad the LIV is causing them a headache. maybe they will take note and change a bit
		
Click to expand...

I was just curious why the PGAT would choose the disciplinary route to punish players who rock up for an LIV event

Then I figured much like ‘protecting the field’ they’ll have a duty to keep all aspects of their tour as the No1 for all members… but that discipline will only work as a threat, once its actually administered the tour is retaining its members attendance by tacit force rather than willing participants

Might there even be an opportunity for the ET to seize the day and partner with LIV, offering the worlds best an alternative home Tour and end the (ever growing) PGAT dominance by ending the ‘special relationship’


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			Brings an interesting dimension into the employees vs independent contractors discussion……
		
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Don't start on that, IR35 is the pain in my arse!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			I was just curious why the PGAT would choose the disciplinary route to punish players who rock up for an LIV event

Then I figured much like ‘protecting the field’ they’ll have a duty to keep all aspects of their tour as the No1 for all members… but that discipline will only work as a threat, once its actually administered the tour is retaining its members attendance by tacit force rather than willing participants

Might there even be an opportunity for the ET to seize the day and partner with LIV, offering the worlds best an alternative home Tour and end the (ever growing) PGAT dominance by ending the ‘special relationship’  

Click to expand...

If they go too hard on punishment (like rumoured year ban) I think the players could stick their fingers up at the tour. Nobody likes being told what they can and can't do .. take the easy money and play when they want 

If they embraced this and said play your Liv tour but you still need to keep your card by doing X amount of events etc I think there is more than enough room


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			No, LIV have specifically stated that it’s 48 players, 12 teams at each event.
		
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Still space though isnt there


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			I was just curious why the PGAT would choose the disciplinary route to punish players who rock up for an LIV event

Then I figured much like ‘protecting the field’ they’ll have a duty to keep all aspects of their tour as the No1 for all members… but that discipline will only work as a threat, *once its actually administered the tour is retaining its members attendance by tacit force rather than willing participants*

Might there even be an opportunity for the ET to seize the day and partner with LIV, offering the worlds best an alternative home Tour and end the (ever growing) PGAT dominance by ending the ‘special relationship’  

Click to expand...

When, as independant contractors, they signed the PGA tour contracts, they agreed to whatever the PGA stated, willingly.


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If they go too hard on punishment (like rumoured year ban) I think the players could stick their fingers up at the tour. Nobody likes being told what they can and can't do .. take the easy money and play when they want

If they embraced this and said play your Liv tour but you still need to keep your card by doing X amount of events etc I think there is more than enough room
		
Click to expand...

The problem that could lead to is that, if the bigger names decided to play a minimum amount of PGA Tour events, played some lucrative LIV events and the Majors, sponsors, TV companies etc are going to get hacked off with reduced fields for a chunk of the year. That could result in tournaments disappearing or revenues being cut. As such, they have to stick to the curent mantra of PGA or nothing.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			When, as independant contractors, they signed the PGA tour contracts, they agreed to whatever the PGA stated, willingly.
		
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are these "independent" contractors allowed to play the ET anytime?


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			The G1Z1 thread is much better 😂
		
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I'm definitely staying away from that thread, and any others the OP cares to start.


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			are these "independent" contractors allowed to play the ET anytime?
		
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No....they have to ask for a release from the PGA....


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			are these "independent" contractors allowed to play the ET anytime?
		
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Yes, because it isn't going to play in North America.
They signed contracts to say they wouldn't play on tours based in the PGA's backyard.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No....they have to ask for a release from the PGA....
		
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has it ever been denied?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Yes, because it isn't going to play in North America.
They signed contracts to say they wouldn't play on tours based in the PGA's backyard.
		
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so why the objection to the one in "london" (hertfordshire)


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			has it ever been denied?
		
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Yes they have denied releases lot's of time, once they refused Greg Norman a release to play in the Australian Open, they finally relented and gave him a release.


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No....they have to ask for a release from the PGA....
		
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re releases:
It might be common knowledge to some but I only found out recently that a ‘release’ is usually used by the pgat as a bargaining tool (element of control )  
i.e if we say yes to a release then you need to commit to play x number of pgat events not previously played within the next x seasons 

its now clear to me why we see a big name randomly appear at an event where they normally wouldn’t get out of bed for


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			re releases:
It might be common knowledge to some but I only found out recently that a ‘release’ is usually used by the pgat as a bargaining tool (element of control ) 
i.e if we say yes to a release then you need to commit to play x number of pgat events not previously played within the next x seasons

its now clear to me why we see a big name randomly appear at an event where they normally wouldn’t get out of bed for
		
Click to expand...

So true, it is how they get the players to play certain events that are lacking star players.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			re releases:
It might be common knowledge to some but I only found out recently that a ‘release’ is usually used by the pgat as a bargaining tool (element of control ) 
i.e if we say yes to a release then you need to commit to play x number of pgat events not previously played within the next x seasons

its now clear to me why we see a big name randomly appear at an event where they normally wouldn’t get out of bed for
		
Click to expand...

I would have loved to see tiger turn up at LIV.. let him have a buggy and everything (will they be allowed shorts??) anyways imagine if he had gone... no way would the PGA ban him... without tiger the PGA wouldnt be what it is.


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## AussieKB (Jun 9, 2022)

This from the PGA website.
https://www.pgatour.com/news/2021/1...international-conflicting-event-releases.html


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			so why the objection to the one in "london" (hertfordshire)
		
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It's the tour, not the individual event


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I would have loved to see tiger turn up at LIV.. let him have a buggy and everything (will they be allowed shorts??) anyways imagine if he had gone... no way would the PGA ban him... without tiger the PGA wouldnt be what it is.
		
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Not allowed shorts on comp days but can wear them before the official tournament starts


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Not allowed shorts on comp days but can wear them before the official tournament starts
		
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Still backwards a bit then


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534858725755871236


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is it hypocrisy? Surely even you know the difference between “Club” not Course - I don’t like the ultra exclusive “clubs” - doesn’t make me stop wanting to play a good course - don’t like what’s happened at Wentworth but play the course.
		
Click to expand...

Found in the JCB thread after its come up again ...

It's almost like somebody can want to play golf and not be interested or agree with what's going on behind the scenes 

Sounds very familiar.....


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Skysports youtube showing the canadian open on youtube  1.6k watching 

when does the LIV coverage start?


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## timd77 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Skysports youtube showing the canadian open on youtube  1.6k watching

when does the LIV coverage start?
		
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Just seen this, interesting. Can’t recall them showing full men’s coverage for free before.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Just seen this, interesting. Can’t recall them showing full men’s coverage for free before.
		
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Do you reckon is in response to the Liv tour to keep people from switching their viewing over?

Edit then if you paid for sky it doesn't effect


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Just seen this, interesting. Can’t recall them showing full men’s coverage for free before.
		
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PGA probably gave Sky a ring


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Do you reckon is in response to the Liv tour to keep people from switching their viewing over?

Edit then if you paid for sky it doesn't effect
		
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absolutely.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

DP Tour first round coverage also streaming on Sky


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			DP Tour first round coverage also streaming on Sky 

Click to expand...

So Liv starts in 1 hour and already has had a postive effect on the PGA and the dp world tour?


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Only took 2 days for my prediction to start happening.
Today Bryson And Patrick.
More will follow, nothing more certain.
I expect more to announce they are playing in the 2nd event.
Im predicting Brooks will be coming across soon.

If PGA Tour bans them all, the players can just say OK, I'm fine here thanks and where does the PGA Tour go from there.
Without the top players there is no PGA Tour....

The PGA Tour may have to change its stance to coexist to survive..

Going to be fascinating to see how this plays out..
		
Click to expand...

Yep, it's human nature, they will follow the money.

If the 3 month ban that is rumoured is the actual punishment loads more will want to play in the events after the Open since most of the big names take a 3 month break away over the winter months.

Also, thanks for the Honma TW-X review on YouTube, your review is what convinced me to give them a go.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			So Liv starts in 1 hour and already has had a postive effect on the PGA and the dp world tour?
		
Click to expand...

The DP tour has been streamed before so has the lasses golf i've deffo watched them before , but yep PGA tour golf is a new one to my knowledge 

Rory and JT v the LIV Lads in the UK 2.3k watching be interesting to see if there's a drop when LIV tees off


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No....they have to ask for a release from the PGA....
		
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The tours allow cross membership 

Many players are members of both tours 

So most of the players that come and play in ET are members of the ET


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			The DP tour has been streamed before so has the lasses golf i've deffo watched them before , but yep PGA tour golf is a new one to my knowledge

Rory and JT v the LIV Lads in the UK 2.3k watching be interesting to see if there's a drop when LIV tees off
		
Click to expand...

If you could report back would be interesting to see


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Found in the JCB thread after its come up again ...

It's almost like somebody can want to play golf and not be interested or agree with what's going on behind the scenes

Sounds very familiar.....
		
Click to expand...

sorry but what’s the relevance 🤷‍♂️

You have gone digging through threads to find a post that has no relevance ?


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Matt Wolff and Bubba in the LIV Golf teaser vids

now thats a bit of marketing

NLU expecting them to be in the next wave


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry but what’s the relevance 🤷‍♂️

You have gone digging through threads to find a post that has no relevance ?
		
Click to expand...

The fact you don't see the relevance or try and deny there is any is hilarious


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The fact you don't see the relevance or try and deny there is any is hilarious
		
Click to expand...

What do ultra exclusive clubs have to do Saudi Arabia ? 

Here is a more relevant point for you 

I turned down a job with BAE working in Saudi - is that not more relevant than me deciding to play a golf course that I like even if the club is very exclusive and I can’t be a member ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do ultra exclusive clubs have to do Saudi Arabia ?

Here is a more relevant point for you

I turned down a job with BAE working in Saudi - is that not more relevant than me deciding to play a golf course that I like even if the club is very exclusive and I can’t be a member ?
		
Click to expand...

Ofc you did.. funny how you turned down something with no proof to back up


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry but what’s the relevance 🤷‍♂️

You have gone digging through threads to find a post that has no relevance ?
		
Click to expand...

Always a highlight of the GM forum when there's a "sorry" and a 🤷‍♂️ emoji on one line.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Crow said:



			Always a highlight of the GM forum when there's a "sorry" and a 🤷‍♂️ emoji on one line.
		
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Translated as I've been caught out and trying to backtrack


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do ultra exclusive clubs have to do Saudi Arabia ?

Here is a more relevant point for you

*I turned down a job with BAE working in Saudi* - is that not more relevant than me deciding to play a golf course that I like even if the club is very exclusive and I can’t be a member ?
		
Click to expand...

Just because you turned down a job in Saudi Arabia doesn't make you a hero. There are plenty of reasons for you to not do that, such as the fact that you quite like your life in the UK, you like being local to watching your football, you speak the English language, you don't really want to permanently live in another culture, etc. No one truly believe your sole reason was that you would have absolutely moved to Saudi Arabia, but didn't simply because you didn't like their human rights record. It was only your superior moral motive that made that decision.

Not comparable to golfers playing in the LIV tour at all. Their lives pretty much are unaffected, as they continue to travel from one golf course to another from week to week, mainly in western, English speaking nations. If anything, they probably feel it frees up more time for them, whilst earning so much more in the process. If they had been asked to play week in, week out, in Saudi Arabia all year round, maybe they'd have come to a different conclusion.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

So, less than 30 minutes before tee off, and I still see no sign of it live on youtube. Does it just begin at 2pm on the dot.

That is definitely one disappointment. I'm sure viewers would like to see a bit of the build up, and pundits chatting about it (whoever they are)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just because you turned down a job in Saudi Arabia doesn't make you a hero. There are plenty of reasons for you to not do that, such as the fact that you quite like your life in the UK, you like being local to watching your football, you speak the English language, you don't really want to permanently live in another culture, etc. No one truly believe your sole reason was that you would have absolutely moved to Saudi Arabia, but didn't simply because you didn't like their human rights record. It was only your superior moral motive that made that decision.

Not comparable to golfers playing in the LIV tour at all. Their lives pretty much are unaffected, as they continue to travel from one golf course to another from week to week, mainly in western, English speaking nations. If anything, they probably feel it frees up more time for them, whilst earning so much more in the process. If they had been asked to play week in, week out, in Saudi Arabia all year round, maybe they'd have come to a different conclusion.
		
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Take a step back there please , you are not required to analyse every single thing posted and most certainly not with the arrogance you display 

Nowhere did I state that I was a hero

And yes Saudi Arabia way of life including how they treated people after witnessing a number times when I had to work out there and how family members were treated was a key reason. 

It was highlighting that someone is willing to turn down more money all because of who is offering it 

People are allowed to have morals and use those morals when making their life choices instead of just looking at the riches offered


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Just seen James Wiltshire’s uploaded a video of DJs practice or pro am round 110k views in 12 hours
		
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I've been a subscriber to his channel for a few years. That' actually a pretty amazing number for him and it's less than a day. 140K now in 16 hours, a lot of his content barely breaks 20K views.


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			DP Tour first round coverage also streaming on Sky 

Click to expand...

Sweet, we have all 3 tours free on YouTube.

Like McDonalds, I'm loving this.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Take a step back there please , you are not required to analyse every single thing posted* and most certainly not with the arrogance you display

Nowhere did I state that I was a hero

And yes Saudi Arabia way of life including how they treated people after witnessing a number times when I had to work out there and how family members were treated was a key reason.

It was highlighting that someone is willing to turn down more money all because of who is offering it

People are allowed to have morals and use those morals when making their life choices instead of just looking at the riches offered
		
Click to expand...

You are doing the same to everyone else, apart from ignoring any statements that are actually good points.

My point is, you can't compare the fact you refused to take up a job in Saudi Arabia to golfers playing on the LIV tour when you are trying to make a moral argument. Firstly, no one is asking these players to pretty live in the Middle East to work. They are not being ask to completely change their way of life. I'm in a position were I'm pretty comfortable in life, and I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia to work, even if they doubled my salary. I'm too comfortable living in the UK, and I don't really fancy living in Saudi Arabia, before even considering their human rights record.

However, if I was asked to move to another place within the city I live, do the same job I do now but get paid double AND maybe a 3 day weekend instead of a 2 day weekend, I would do it. Even if the owners of the company were from Saudi Arabia, or China or wherever else.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are doing the same to everyone else, apart from ignoring any statements that are actually good points.

My point is, you can't compare the fact you refused to take up a job in Saudi Arabia to golfers playing on the LIV tour when you are trying to make a moral argument. Firstly, no one is asking these players to pretty live in the Middle East to work. They are not being ask to completely change their way of life. I'm in a position were I'm pretty comfortable in life, and I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia to work, even if they doubled my salary. I'm too comfortable living in the UK, and I don't really fancy living in Saudi Arabia, before even considering their human rights record.

However, if I was asked to move to another place within the city I live, do the same job I do now but get paid double AND maybe a 3 day weekend instead of a 2 day weekend, I would do it. Even if the owners of the company were from Saudi Arabia, or China or wherever else.
		
Click to expand...

because you steamed in you missed the point

someone tried to compare the Golfers playing in the Liv tour with me choosing to play a round at an exclusive club - no idea why he thought it was relevant but he did

I said that a more relevant comparison was me not working for a company who were working for the Saudi government - not just about living there etc , it was indirectly being paid by them to train and teach Saudi military

So yes I think it’s more relevant comparison to someone going on about exclusive golf clubs - I didn’t want to take money from a disgusting regime , the likes of Mickleson and Co have no issues taking that money

I guess could put you in the same bracket then if you don’t care where the money comes from


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

https://www.livgolf.com/how-to-watch

Seems its live on DAZN in the UK

Youtube for the US...

I stand mistaken - its now LIVE on YT


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## rksquire (Jun 9, 2022)

Here. We Go.  

Sky Sports Golf live broadcasting the Canadian Open AND the Scandinavian Open on Youtube as an alternative viewing choice.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I've been a subscriber to his channel for a few years. That' actually a pretty amazing number for him and it's less than a day. 140K now in 16 hours, a lot of his content barely breaks 20K views.
		
Click to expand...

11k watching Live at start time!

Now 15k


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## garyinderry (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



https://www.livgolf.com/how-to-watch

Seems its live on DAZN in the UK

Youtube for the US...

I stand mistaken - its now LIVE on YT
		
Click to expand...


The link I clicked on yourube said it had been shut down for copyright infringement by the PGA  haha


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			11k watching Live at start time!

Now 15k
		
Click to expand...

15K on LIV golf and 3K on PGA Tour streams


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			15K on LIV golf and 3K on PGA Tour streams
		
Click to expand...

21k on LIV


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

OHH WE'VE GOT TEAM CAPS

Thats me buying a new golf cap this weekend


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			21k on LIV
		
Click to expand...

22K on LIV, 3K on PGA and 196 on DP World tour.

The DP World Tour really, really should have partnered with LIV. Imagine how many of the top Euro players would have come back full time to the DP World Tour if they could have played 8 LIV events as well.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Think the LIV golf website feed is just youtube embedded


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			22K on LIV, 3K on PGA and 196 on DP World tour.

The DP World Tour really, really should have partnered with LIV. Imagine how many of the top Euro players would have come back full time to the DP World Tour if they could have played 8 LIV events as well.
		
Click to expand...

24k

To be fair, DPWT have hardly advertised a free event this weekend so its hard to compare it to LIV's first ever - but I see your point!


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Majestics till i die Arlo!


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

There's 6k on facebook also


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

This is my afternoon at work sorted. Tee off at 14:15, youtube coverage started at 14:00, 26,000 viewers on youtube so far and seemingly rising rapidly. No idea if that is good or not?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Think the LIV golf website feed is just youtube embedded
		
Click to expand...

 Same with fb?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			This is my afternoon at work sorted. Tee off at 14:15, youtube coverage started at 14:00, 26,000 viewers on youtube so far and seemingly rising rapidly. No idea if that is good or not?
		
Click to expand...

Gutted I left work at 13:00. Kids all afternoon

Hey I got tomorrow and Saturday


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

Fast to show the big guys!

DJ and Phil within 5 minutes!


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Audio is a bit ropey in the booth but tbf production seems slick


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## ger147 (Jun 9, 2022)

RAF flyover at the Liv Golf, someone will be ragin'!! 😂😂


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

42k on Youtube now!

Lets go MAJESTICKS


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## PieMan (Jun 9, 2022)

Watched about 5 mins and gave up after Phil being interviewed trying to big up the ability of 2 of his team he knows nothing about!!!! 😀

And some fella in the studio called Creme Brulee getting over emotional!!!


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Phil looks a bit rough like ha


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Lol crowd looks empty eh


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

51k....


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			OHH WE'VE GOT TEAM CAPS

Thats me buying a new golf cap this weekend 

Click to expand...

LIV Golf headgear:


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Still no idea how this team scoring works and is it a league over all events or what


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

Team logos on the caddy's overall is a touch of class


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## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Decent start to be fair. Production is better than I thought it would be and we have seen a load of shots already.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Decent start to be fair. Production is better than I thought it would be and we have seen a load of shots already.
		
Click to expand...


Literally don’t blink ha


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

bit spoiler alert there mind ffs Faldo did the same at the masters ffs


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			we will find out anyway youtube shows the viewer numbers i'd be shocked if it hits over 50k
		
Click to expand...

Are you shocked yet?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2022)

It's a handsome looking course. Have many on here played it?


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## upsidedown (Jun 9, 2022)

Enjoying it so far


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a handsome looking course. Have many on here played it?
		
Click to expand...

Played a number of times - it’s ok , bit of a mixture of the grove and Woburn but lacking a bit of character , lots of electric pile ons and a constant noise from the M1


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Still no idea how this team scoring works and is it a league over all events or what
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was rubbish. Streaming started 15 minutes before tee off, and they spent that time interviewing Greg Norman and a few players. Would have been nice if they came on earlier and spent time explaining the Liv Tour properly, players involved, team format, venues, etc.

I doubt they'll get a chance to tell us much about this during the live golf part, as they will be desperately flicking from one shot to the next with so much going on. I'm still a bit lost with this whole shot gun element. At least without a shot gun, the coverage has more time to spread it's coverage around the players throughout the day. This LIV golf feels very rushed.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

The sound effect when the names come on screen is getting on my nerves but that's all ive got to criticise the broadcast so far


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, that was rubbish. Streaming started 15 minutes before tee off, and they spent that time interviewing Greg Norman and a few players. Would have been nice if they came on earlier and spent time explaining the Liv Tour properly, players involved, team format, venues, etc.

I doubt they'll get a chance to tell us much about this during the live golf part, as they will be desperately flicking from one shot to the next with so much going on. I'm still a bit lost with this whole shot gun element. At least without a shot gun, the coverage has more time to spread it's coverage around the players throughout the day. This LIV golf feels very rushed.
		
Click to expand...

It does feel like its on speed yeah


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Is this being held during lockdown?


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you shocked yet?
		
Click to expand...

yeah got that wrong wonder what it settles at 100k?


----------



## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a handsome looking course. Have many on here played it?
		
Click to expand...

Twice, ages ago before they built the current clubhouse. Nice enough, fairly typical of modern courses. Holes 8,9 and 10 are bit “samey“ and unremarkable.


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## rksquire (Jun 9, 2022)

It is a bit random to look at viewers every few minutes..... but, youtube UK for live streams currently has

LIV - 55K+
PGA Canadian - under 3k
DPWT Mixed Scandi Open - a very specific 151 people.


----------



## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

rksquire said:



			It is a bit random to look at viewers every few minutes..... but, youtube UK for live streams currently has

LIV - 55K+
PGA Canadian - under 3k
DPWT Mixed Scandi Open - a very specific 151 people.
		
Click to expand...




rksquire said:



			It is a bit random to look at viewers every few minutes..... but, youtube UK for live streams currently has

LIV - 55K+
PGA Canadian - under 3k
DPWT Mixed Scandi Open - a very specific 151 people.
		
Click to expand...

worth noting i think the sky one will be uk specific but haven't got a vpn to try


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			It does feel like its on speed yeah
		
Click to expand...

Feels like a highlights program.


----------



## GB72 (Jun 9, 2022)

Just seen the press release from the PGA about suspending all LIV entrants who are tour members. The language used is pretty hardcore, nothing conciliatory in there at all.


----------



## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			yeah got that wrong wonder what it settles at 100k?
		
Click to expand...

I'd be surprised if it reaches that although a lot of the US are still in bed.

I think they will probably be happy with the 60K concurrent views for a 1st attempt. By the time you add in Facebook and their own website, the numbers aren't bad.

Think I've seen more shots already than 2 hours of Sky coverage.


----------



## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'd be surprised if it reaches that although a lot of the US are still in bed.

I think they will probably be happy with the 60K concurrent views for a 1st attempt. By the time you add in Facebook and their own website, the numbers aren't bad.

Think I've seen more shots already than 2 hours of Sky coverage.
		
Click to expand...

i think their website will be included in the youtube figures it looked like youtube embedded


----------



## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Massive putt from Brooks little brother and you could hear him say to someone in his group with a big smile on his face "told you your marker was alright".

Really liking the coverage.


----------



## Springveldt (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			The sound effect when the names come on screen is getting on my nerves but that's all ive got to criticise the broadcast so far
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it's quite annoying.

I've got it on my second screen while working and keep flicking my eyes over every time it goes off.


----------



## upsidedown (Jun 9, 2022)

Not so keen on the abbreviations for players names, they could shove it left a bit and use their full names


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 9, 2022)

Could do with the full names on the scoreboard not just the initials.
Loving the quick play though


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'd be surprised if it reaches that although a lot of the US are still in bed.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a way of getting the geographical breakdown of viewing figures then? How many viewing in the middle and far east ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534896980840833027


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Just seen the press release from the PGA about suspending all LIV entrants who are tour members. The language used is pretty hardcore, nothing conciliatory in there at all.
		
Click to expand...

Et said nothing 

Now let's see if they al jump to the ET tour to get ranking points thus boosting the et tour


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a handsome looking course. Have many on here played it?
		
Click to expand...

Haven't done so, but can get on via my club, so may do so sometime soon.


----------



## Ethan (Jun 9, 2022)

The video coverage is fine, usual golf camerawork and shot tracer. The commentary is very American, though, the concept of brief silences is rather foreign to them, and they obviously have the list of justifications for the concept ready. I would lose the constant scoreboard on the left side of the screen too, with the slightly annoying pings with every scoreboard change. 

I think the real test for this concept is after a few weeks, seeing whether the audience has grown or fallen, and how it is received when an event is played in the US. I might take a look at the event at Trump Bedminster because I worked for a company based in Bedminster and was over about 10 times on business. I asked the golfing CEO of the company if he had played there and he sniffed 'No chance, had the invite, didn't take it'.


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Et said nothing

Now let's see if they al jump to the ET tour to get ranking points thus boosting the et tour
		
Click to expand...

Not sure that it would ever happen as it would totally split the game of golf but imagine if the oher tours all went poaching PGA tour members allowing full access to the LIV events plus ranking points on their own tour.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

This is actually an interesting watch on a few levels 

Like the scoreboard, not with abbreviations but hey 

Coverage is quick and less filling from the pundits .. always welcome 

The fall out is  gonna be fun to follow aswell as they are suspended now


----------



## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534896980840833027

Click to expand...

The timing of this release is ”interesting”…….over to you Greg !


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			worth noting i think the sky one will be uk specific but haven't got a vpn to try
		
Click to expand...

I've just tried from UK with my VPN and yes it's UK only.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that it would ever happen as it would totally split the game of golf but imagine if the oher tours all went poaching PGA tour members allowing full access to the LIV events plus ranking points on their own tour.
		
Click to expand...

Would be great to be fair get the et on a bigger footing again


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 9, 2022)

Court cases galore in the future 
Lawyers rubbing their hands


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Why are we seeing an interview with Chase Kupcake?
I thought it'd be 5 hours of solid golf


----------



## larmen (Jun 9, 2022)

I quite like the format. Due to shotgun there is always something happening, no dead time. Also, all players are playing in the same weather. No-one gets an advantage of early or late start.
Can't be bothered about the teams.


----------



## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2022)

Quite like the format and vibe so far. Don't like the low definition picture quality or the large LIV Golf banner across the bottom of the screen. Also, there is plenty of space on the left in the scoring pane to add more of the names - 4 characters is very annoying!

Course is looking good - need another game here. It is far from an average course that many have alluded to. The main negatives being some pilons around the end of front 9 and the m25/m1 noise on a few holes in this part of the course.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Why are we seeing an interview with Chase Kupcake?
I thought it'd be 5 hours of solid golf
		
Click to expand...

Still have to walk between shots. A lot less padding that your average tour event.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

Many spectators turned up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

larmen said:



			I quite like the format. Due to shotgun there is always something happening, no dead time. Also, all players are playing in the same weather. No-one gets an advantage of early or late start.
Can't be bothered about the teams.
		
Click to expand...

Some guys at the club are watching

They are at the 18th green - waiting 15 mins so far and no one has got to the green 

Must be Kevin Na 😁


Barking_Mad said:



			Many spectators turned up?
		
Click to expand...


The official word is a sell out - many freebies but lads saying there are lots of spaces etc , it’s a decent crowd but not that big -


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## LincolnShep (Jun 9, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Don't like the [...] the large LIV Golf banner across the bottom of the screen.
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a banner across the bottom of my screen on YouTube - just on the GM forum!


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

I think most of the players had resigned their membership anyway, hadn't they? Either way they've been excluded so re-applying might be a climb down of large proportions.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Some guys at the club are watching

They are at the 18th green - waiting 15 mins so far and no one has got to the green*

Click to expand...

I hope you refuse to speak to them or play golf with them in the future. Disgraceful that they should go and watch this event, and effectively support the Saudi Arabian human rights record. Shame on them...


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some guys at the club are watching

They are at the 18th green - waiting 15 mins so far and no one has got to the green

Must be Kevin Na 😁



The official word is a sell out - many freebies but lads saying there are lots of spaces etc , it’s a decent crowd but not that big -
		
Click to expand...

Maybe because only 16 holes in play at once 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I hope you refuse to speak to them or play golf with them in the future. Disgraceful that they should go and watch this event, and effectively support the Saudi Arabian human rights record. Shame on them... 

Click to expand...

He wrote a strongly worded letter to the committee and 2 comp ban suggested


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Looks like "Come What May" has got off to a great start in the singles (I assume that is the English translation of his surname)


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

Woohoo, Just got home and put tellybox on and (being outside UK) my satellite provider has full coverage, so I don't have to use YouTube


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Pushing over 80,000 viewers now. I'm almost as interested in the viewing figure, to see if it his 100,000, as I am in the actual golf.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			Woohoo, Just got home and put tellybox on and (being outside UK) my satellite provider has full coverage, so I don't have to use YouTube
		
Click to expand...

Oh so outside the UK is TV? Interesting . So these watching is just the uk


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh so outside the UK is TV? Interesting . So these watching is just the uk
		
Click to expand...

I guess yeah, plus any other countries that didn't set up a TV deal with liv


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe because only 16 holes in play at once 🙄
		
Click to expand...





As they are the 18th they would expect to see at least 7 groups through before any short breaks.  Not the case

Going to be an even bigger gap for them later then


----------



## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			I don't have a banner across the bottom of my screen on YouTube - just on the GM forum!
		
Click to expand...

i went out and back in and it has now gone


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

Will be interesting to see the response from the DP World Tour. Eddie Pepperall was on the radio this morning and said that this would quite possibly "leave the DP Tour fighting for its life". I can't imagine they have much wriggle room due to their relationship with the PGA Tour.

Also I guess by resigning their membership of the PGA Tour the US players are also unable to play in the Ryder Cup as they get their USGPA membership by playing on the PGA Tour. So at present none of the LIV field for US players will be in the Ryder Cup.

Edit: As for Europe - it would be a bit rich of them to leave one tour for that money and then turn up at an event and play for free, 'for the honour'. For some it would be pretty hard to stomach Poulter thumping his chest with pride......


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As they are the 18th they would expect to see at least 7 groups through before any short breaks.  Not the case

Going to be an even bigger gap for them later then
		
Click to expand...

Na is doing up his shoe laces, be patient!


----------



## IainP (Jun 9, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i went out and back in and it has now gone 

Click to expand...

The banner I spotted was directing to the chat for a HD link

Unrelated but was trying the newpipe app that someone recommended,  I think those viewing figures will be on top of YT figures (think there are a few of these apps out there). Edit, actually may just be there are several feeds.


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

Had both streams open and continue to drift more towards the RBC… but that maybe down to Rory being on and playing well Fitzpatrick also 2 players I really like 

The flows a bit off for me more like a highlights package but it might be because I’m working and the pace of featured groups mean you can dip in and out 

That’s said they’ve pulled it off and I think if you had a class field with all the big names it could work really well … I’ll probably tune back in on Sunday if I’m not busy to see how it goes on the final day


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

This course looks a bit tighter than what we normally see on the PGA Tour. Seem to be a lot of dense trees and out of bounds, compared to wide open fields they can shoot towards on PGA Tour. Not sure if this is the case, or just my early perception.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 9, 2022)

It does seem that some players are mic'd up for some parts too!


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			That’s said they’ve pulled it off and I think if you had a class field with all the big names it could work really well … I’ll probably *tune back in on Sunday* if I’m not busy to see how it goes on the final day
		
Click to expand...

Good luck with that….🤣


----------



## PieMan (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I hope you refuse to speak to them or play golf with them in the future. Disgraceful that they should go and watch this event, and effectively support the Saudi Arabian human rights record. Shame on them... 

Click to expand...

Or they took advantage of all the free tickets being handed out............! 😉

A few of my golfing buddies have gone as they'd got hold of freebies. Initial reactions are it's great........as it's not busy so can get a good view of the players and the golf........although some of the golf is apparently pants! 😀


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Or they took advantage of all the free tickets being handed out............! 😉

A few of my golfing buddies have gone as they'd got hold of freebies. Initial reactions are it's great........as it's not busy so can get a good view of the players and the golf........although some of the golf is apparently pants! 😀
		
Click to expand...

and £10 for a beer


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			and £10 for a beer 

Click to expand...

In line with what the PGA champ was charging no?


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			and £10 for a beer 

Click to expand...

Thats just the South and not simply the venue


----------



## srixon 1 (Jun 9, 2022)

Watching whilst working. Phil looks like he forgot to bring his razor. Also, have Callaway and his other sponsors dropped him as there is not a logo in sight on his clothing?  I wonder which ball he is using?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Had both streams open and continue to drift more towards the RBC… but that maybe down to Rory being on and playing well Fitzpatrick also 2 players I really like

The flows a bit off for me more like a highlights package but it might be because I’m working and the pace of featured groups mean you can dip in and out

That’s said they’ve pulled it off and I think if you had a class field with all the big names it could work really well … I’ll probably tune back in on Sunday if I’m not busy to see how it goes on the final day
		
Click to expand...

Maybe tune back in Saturday...


----------



## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Or they took advantage of all the free tickets being handed out............! 😉

A few of my golfing buddies have gone as they'd got hold of freebies. Initial reactions are it's great........as it's not busy so can get a good view of the players and the golf........although some of the golf is apparently pants! 😀
		
Click to expand...

Who cares if it is free. Simply being there shows support for the event. Liverpoolphil wouldn't go there over his dead body, even if they paid him.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

Any ideas where to find the full live leaderboard?


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## Orikoru (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			and £10 for a beer 

Click to expand...

They should pop down to Costco in Bushey, you can get 12 bottles of beer for that.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Must say this has been an enjoyable watch.. it will be over by what half 6 .. 7 Ish ...so not bad for an entire event 

The next one will be even more interesting with bigger stars coming ... And it will start say 6 or something and be over by 11


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## pokerjoke (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			In line with what the PGA champ was charging no?
		
Click to expand...

About half price


----------



## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe tune back in Saturday...
		
Click to expand...

That's the one


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Some guys at the club are watching*

They are at the 18th green - waiting 15 mins so far and no one has got to the green

Must be Kevin Na 😁



The official word is a sell out - many freebies but lads saying there are lots of spaces etc , it’s a decent crowd but not that big -
		
Click to expand...

Not that old chestnut 😂😂

Just admit you’re watching it Phil 🤦‍♂️😂


----------



## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Liverpoolphil wouldn't go there over his dead body, even if they paid him.
		
Click to expand...

And neither would I. 
I don’t know you or Phil but the bickering and name calling is a bit childish, perhaps we can focus on the event?


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			And neither would I.
I don’t know you or Phil but the bickering and name calling is a bit childish, perhaps we can focus on the event?
		
Click to expand...

Been trying to do that for what a week? Just the same argument about the funding over and over .. draw a line under that we all agree on the funding 

Now the golf 

It's actually pretty good


----------



## PieMan (Jun 9, 2022)

Meanwhile over on the main tour, some really good golf being played by a better golfers 👍


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2022)

Well I was enjoying that but I'm out, we've just had the pgat nonsense calling it a flatstick!!
It's a putter, c'mon LIV get it together


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Been trying to do that for what a week? Just the same argument about the funding over and over .. draw a line under that we all agree on the funding

Now the golf

It's actually pretty good
		
Click to expand...

You can just not reply if the idea of people being upset about stoned to death homosexuals is a bit much for you.

Anyway, as you say, ignoring that slight issue, back to people knocking balls into a hole for $200m


----------



## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			And neither would I.
I don’t know you or Phil but the bickering and name calling is a bit childish, perhaps we can focus on the event?
		
Click to expand...

OK dad  , although I don't remember any name calling


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			OK dad  , although I don't remember any name calling
		
Click to expand...

Can't fully say what we think tho or we get fraggered


----------



## upsidedown (Jun 9, 2022)

Like we are seeing players we don't  normally see in regular coverage


----------



## timd77 (Jun 9, 2022)

Depreston said:



			The sound effect when the names come on screen is getting on my nerves but that's all ive got to criticise the broadcast so far
		
Click to expand...

Seriously, I’ll be hearing this when I’m trying to sleep later!


----------



## stefanovic (Jun 9, 2022)

Will you now be tempted to follow in Phil's footsteps here?

Just wondering.


----------



## larmen (Jun 9, 2022)

Do they actually have their 'tour trucks' there? Or, ff they break a club this round, do they have to pop into the pro shop to fix it?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2022)

Ignoring the fact that the money comes from Saudi, I've got no interest in watching it simply because it's not the elite players and I don't support anyone that is taking part. If I watch a sporting event live I want to either have a personal connection to it, such as knowing some of the players involved, supporting that team or it being the best in the world competing. I go to watch Colchester United live because I support the team. I might go down to watch Beccles Town CC v Swaffham CC in a couple of weeks because my brother is playing. I watch the Champions League to watch the best players in the world competing. I wouldn't go down to my local park to watch a football match played by two amateur teams unless I had a personal connection. At the minute the LIV golf isn't about being the best by competing against the best and if I'm going to give up my time to watch, that's what I want to see, like the golf majors.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Ignoring the fact that the money comes from Saudi, I've got no interest in watching it simply because it's not the elite players and I don't support anyone that is taking part. If I watch a sporting event live I want to either have a personal connection to it, such as knowing some of the players involved, supporting that team or it being the best in the world competing. I go to watch Colchester United live because I support the team. I might go down to watch Beccles Town CC v Swaffham CC in a couple of weeks because my brother is playing. I watch the Champions League to watch the best players in the world competing. I wouldn't go down to my local park to watch a football match played by two amateur teams unless I had a personal connection. At the minute the LIV golf isn't about being the best by competing against the best and if I'm going to give up my time to watch, that's what I want to see, like the golf majors.
		
Click to expand...

What about when byrson arrives?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What about when byrson arrives?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, still not interested. If they've got over 50% of the top 20 or 50 in the world rankings playing then I will probably give it a watch if I've got nothing else on (which is the same attitude I have with any regular PGA tour event - if I'm at home and it's on then I might watch it but I won't be setting an alarm or turning down other things purely to watch it). Other than that to me it would be like popping down to watch Grimsby v Chesterfield in the Vanarama National League. I've got no connection to either team and I'm clearly not watching the best players in the world so why am I watching when I've got many better things I could be doing.


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## weewullie (Jun 9, 2022)

I've not read all the thread so this may have already been asked but what happens when more than 48 guys want to play?


----------



## Golfnut1957 (Jun 9, 2022)

I've had it on in the background since it started. When I heard the PGA Tour was being streamed I was tempted to turn over, but then I thought about the 10 shots per hour they generally show during the early coverage which usually leaves me free to watch Idris Elba telling me how much I need Sky Movies. I didn't bother and stayed with LIV.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, still not interested. If they've got over 50% of the top 20 or 50 in the world rankings playing then I will probably give it a watch if I've got nothing else on (which is the same attitude I have with any regular PGA tour event - if I'm at home and it's on then I might watch it but I won't be setting an alarm or turning down other things purely to watch it). Other than that to me it would be like popping down to watch Grimsby v Chesterfield in the Vanarama National League. I've got no connection to either team and I'm clearly not watching the best players in the world so why am I watching when I've got many better things I could be doing.
		
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Yet now their banned and can't get points thus can't go up the Rankings does that not make the world rankings flawed as it doesn't include some of the best players in the world.


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## srixon 1 (Jun 9, 2022)

The leader board up the side is awful. It looks like they have borrowed it from NASCAR. Does it really need to make a noise every time it changes.


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			….does that not make the world rankings flawed as it doesn't include some of the best players in the world.
		
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Depends if you think the world rankings system was accurate in the first place. Like all ‘rankings’ it’s based on certain criteria which I can guarantee won’t have unanimous approval on here.I find it hard to believe Scottie S is the best player in the world, but according to the rankings he currently is. I think all the top players go in and out of form, the same way we have purple patches with our handicaps. The main impact on the world rankings is that numbers will be skewed and could exclude a new, upcoming player who has chosen LIV over established tours, but he presumably knew the risk before he signed up.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet now their banned and can't get points thus can't go up the Rankings does that not make the world rankings flawed as it doesn't include some of the best players in the world.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly does. Nobody is coming out unharmed from this war.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

weewullie said:



			I've not read all the thread so this may have already been asked but what happens when more than 48 guys want to play?
		
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Survival of the fittest. The nonamers in it at the moment will be jettisoned for upgrades as soon as they jump aboard.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Certainly does. Nobody is coming out unharmed from this war.
		
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Would love to see DJ win the us open or alike .. really p off the PGA


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Would love to see DJ win the us open or alike .. really p off the PGA
		
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The PGA tour don’t run the US Open.
He won’t get any FedEx points and it won’t really effect the PGA tour.


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Would love to see DJ win the us open or alike .. really p off the PGA
		
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Surely he won't play it as they're not offering him enough money...


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

In my opinion:

Positives:

Easy access for people to watch for free, and can watch on TV, Laptop, tablet or phone easier I guess.

Fair weather conditions for players with shotgun start, again doesn't impact me.

For me, that is it really, at the moment.

Negatives

Too many golf shots, especially from unknowns. I know some like this, but I don't really have much interest in them to care. Probably a reason we see little golf of the minor players on PGA Tour, unless they get into a decent position.

Feels like a highlights program. Sort of hard to follow the progress of the leaders, or provide any build up to the difficulties they are about to face. Maybe that will change by Day 3 when leaderboard takes shape.

Quality of field is just like, or worse than regular PGA event. I don't watch regular events for this reason, so probably similar with this once novelty wears off. The money is great for players, but doesn't motivate me as a fan to watch.

Even if all best players do play, what will the importance of it be? It won't have the esteem of Majors or WGCs, so would it still feel like a friendly football match to the fans? 

Team element is rubbish. No interest.

Other minor things, like silly sounds of leaderboard and found it impossible to find a full leaderboard anywhere online.

Summary:

I think a lot of changes will still be needed to get fans properly on board with it. And PGA Tour will do their best to provide a major obstacle (I see their point of view). If more big players come across, presumably there is a limit to field size due to shotgun starts and prize money distribution. So, I wonder how they deal with that? Kick out lesser known players who supported them from the start? 

The most captivating part of it all is the politics of it.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Will be interesting to see the response from the DP World Tour. Eddie Pepperall was on the radio this morning and said that this would quite possibly "leave the DP Tour fighting for its life". I can't imagine they have much wriggle room due to their relationship with the PGA Tour.
....
		
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LIV is no threat to the World Tour at all. It is going for the highest level players that the World Tour isn't really fishing in anyway. The European players that will make LIV level are only occasional Euro Tour gamers anyway. Its the PGA Tour that is being torpedoed here.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			The PGA tour don’t run the US Open.
He won’t get any FedEx points and it won’t really effect the PGA tour.
		
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It certainly would affect the PGA. Major winners - the guys who are the real draw in pro golf - missing from them will be very sore. And an undeniable downgrade to their offering. Over the hill major winners don't really matter. Phil. But a freshly minted major holder not being in their fold? Ouch !!!!


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## fenwayrich (Jun 9, 2022)

PGA Tour have acted quickly as expected by suspending the players connected to them. DP World Tour have so far remained silent and refused to make any comment. Isn't that a little strange, given the close ties that are supposed to exist between both entities? If I were world ranked 330 loyally playing in Sweden today, I might feel concerned that those DP Tour members who have taken the money will bank at least 120k and be eligible for the next tournament.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			PGA Tour have acted quickly as expected by suspending the players connected to them. DP World Tour have so far remained silent and refused to make any comment. Isn't that a little strange, given the close ties that are supposed to exist between both entities? If I were world ranked 330 loyally playing in Sweden today, I might feel concerned that those DP Tour members who have taken the money will bank at least 120k and be eligible for the next tournament.
		
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How many of those players in Sweden turned down the opportunity to play in the LIV series - there will be a few.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It certainly would affect the PGA. Major winners - the guys who are the real draw in pro golf - missing from them will be very sore. And an undeniable downgrade to their offering. Over the hill major winners don't really matter. Phil. But a freshly minted major hold not being in their fold? Ouch !!!!
		
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How many potential major winners are playing LIV?
DJ, Louis? That’s about it, the rest are nobody or has been.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

323,000 views on the You Tube channel, Oh ye of Little Faith. ;-)


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

Heard a couple of serious observers of the game on it today, and dress it up how LIV might, each identified the failure to nail a reputable broadcaster as their biggest failure. Youtube is a not wanted damage limitation action and they are desperate to jump to the mainstream sport media. Media companies not willing to risk controversy or relations with the established tours at the moment apparently until they see how it plays out.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			How many potential major winners are playing LIV?
DJ, Louis? That’s about it, the rest are nobody or has been.
		
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Bryson when he jumps..

Louis,DJ , horsefield is a future star , Phil won a major last year was it?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Heard a couple of serious observers of the game on it today, and dress it up how LIV might, each identified the failure to nail a reputable broadcaster as their biggest failure. Youtube is a not wanted damage limitation action and they are desperate to jump to the mainstream sport media. Media companies not willing to risk controversy or relations with the established tours at the moment apparently until they see how it plays out.
		
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Isn't it only on the YouTube in the UK? Who had it in the USA?


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Bryson when he jumps..

Louis,DJ , horsefield is a future star , Phil won a major last year was it?
		
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Horsefield🤣


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it only on the YouTube in the UK? Who had it in the USA?
		
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No, YouTube is a worldwide product. 
Apparently the kids are all watching it instead of telly.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it only on the YouTube in the UK? Who had it in the USA?
		
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I don't know. Mel ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			No, YouTube is a worldwide product.
Apparently the kids are all watching it instead of telly.
		
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@Slab had it on TV where he is


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Horsefield🤣
		
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Won on the dp world tour 3 times


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Slab had it on TV where he is
		
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That’s as maybe, it’s also on YouTube worldwide.


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## SteveW86 (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Slab had it on TV where he is
		
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Is slab a kid?


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Won on the dp world tour 3 times
		
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In star studded events?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Heard a couple of serious observers of the game on it today, and dress it up how LIV might, each identified the failure to nail a reputable broadcaster as their biggest failure. Youtube is a not wanted damage limitation action and they are desperate to jump to the mainstream sport media. Media companies not willing to risk controversy or relations with the established tours at the moment apparently until they see how it plays out.
		
Click to expand...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with using YouTube as a streaming service, but it will go to a broadcaster, there's absolutely no doubt about that.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I don't know. Mel ?
		
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Everywhere buddy, I watched it while fitting a shower screen in Cabo Roig, Spain. Just needed my phone and a 3G connection.


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## SteveW86 (Jun 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Everywhere buddy, I watched it while fitting a shower screen in Cabo Roig, Spain. Just needed my phone and a 3G connection.
		
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Thought you’d have been at the event, being on the payroll and all.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Thought you’d have been at the event, being on the payroll and all.
		
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I know, gutted I couldn't make it. Greg offered me a spot in  Club 54 - gratis, but I just had to get that shower screen installed instead.


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## Backsticks (Jun 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Everywhere buddy, I watched it while fitting a shower screen in Cabo Roig, Spain. Just needed my phone and a 3G connection.
		
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That wasn't the question. It was, is youtube the only medium world wide or has it some traditional channels in the USA or elsewhere in the world ?


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## PieMan (Jun 9, 2022)

weewullie said:



			I've not read all the thread so this may have already been asked but what happens when more than 48 guys want to play?
		
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Then the crap ones will be binned!! 😉


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That wasn't the question. It was, is youtube the only medium world wide or has it some traditional channels in the USA or elsewhere in the world ?
		
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No the question was ..."Isn't it only on the YouTube in the UK? Who had it in the USA?", and I answered "everywhere".

It was on You Tube everywhere, or Facebook, or the Liv website. That's the answer to any questions as to how it was broadcast.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No the question was ..."Isn't it only on the YouTube in the UK? Who had it in the USA?", and I answered "everywhere".

It was on You Tube everywhere, or Facebook, or the Liv website. That's the answer to any questions as to how it was broadcast.
		
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What I find strange is all companies have refused it thus far but are fine to broadcast any of the following

DP world tour in Saudi 
F1 including Saudi
Boxing In Saudi
WWE in Saudi 

But aren't happy to broadcast an event in England


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What I find strange is all companies have refused it thus far but are fine to broadcast any of the following

DP world tour in Saudi
F1 including Saudi
Boxing In Saudi
WWE in Saudi

But aren't happy to broadcast an event in England
		
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Have they refused it? I'm sure Norman has said somewhere that he has 9 parties interested in either direct broadcasting or over the top coverage, but I might be wrong. 


The commentary team were making a solid point about it being on You Tube today, maybe that's just part of the strategy. The guys paying for Sky, or the Golf channel etc will feel loyal to the PGA tour, because they are effectively in bed with them. I think we can see that resonating on here tbh.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What I find strange is all companies have refused it thus far but are fine to broadcast any of the following

DP world tour in Saudi 
F1 including Saudi
Boxing In Saudi
WWE in Saudi 

But aren't happy to broadcast an event in England
		
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I presume Sky are worried about upsetting the PGA, and the PGA refusing to sell their rights to them in future? Or, maybe there is something in their contract with the PGA to not have any conflicting interests?

Not sure about other broadcasters though? For example, could BT not have asked to show it? Or any freeview channel, with LIV Tour still offering to show it on youtube to get it off the ground.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it has all been a bit rushed, and maybe the speed of it has even surprised the organisers? The website is poor, I'd have thought there would be live leaderboards and all sorts of other content. Is there an App? If it takes off and fans are interested, the broadcasting companies will definitely get more interested.


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## DeanoMK (Jun 9, 2022)

Genuine question, where can you check the leaderboard? Nothing on the LIV Golf website, whatsoever, nothing on BBC or skysports either.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Matt Wolff and pat perez rumoured to be joining soon aswell

Byrson 
Fowler 
Wolff 
Perez 
Reed 

That's 5 more then already


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## woofers (Jun 9, 2022)

DeanoMK said:



			Genuine question, where can you check the leaderboard? Nothing on the LIV Golf website, whatsoever, nothing on BBC or skysports either.
		
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No idea, but they did say they’d be doing things differently…although not publicising the results is pushing it a bit.


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Matt Wolff and pat perez rumoured to be joining soon aswell

Byrson
Fowler
Wolff
Perez
Reed

That's 5 more then already
		
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Won't really miss any of them. Bryson is a freak show, Fowler is a busted flush, Wolff is heading that way too, Perez was never a major figure and Reed is ..... Reed.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 9, 2022)

DeanoMK said:



			Genuine question, where can you check the leaderboard? Nothing on the LIV Golf website, whatsoever, nothing on BBC or skysports either.
		
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It will be somewhere. Just Google LIV Tour Leaderboard. Although the fact its own website doesn't have one is schoolboy stuff.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383913691410698242
😂😂 oops


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Won't really miss any of them. Bryson is a freak show, Fowler is a busted flush, Wolff is heading that way too, Perez was never a major figure and Reed is ..... Reed.
		
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Byrson is one of the most interesting golfers on tour.


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## IainP (Jun 9, 2022)

DeanoMK said:



			Genuine question, where can you check the leaderboard? Nothing on the LIV Golf website, whatsoever, nothing on BBC or skysports either.
		
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https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/gol...-results-leaderboard/u10jqp8on5rqsrxxllk1bvkx


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Byrson is one of the most interesting golfers on tour.
		
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Not to an awful lot of golf fans who think he’s a knob


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## Depreston (Jun 9, 2022)

I enjoyed the smear piece in digest about Reed and Bryson even mentioned that weird Twitter account that is blatantly Reeds lass


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## larmen (Jun 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383913691410698242
😂😂 oops
		
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Maybe he tweeted it because he liked the idea?

Someone could print flyers for the next 2 days ;-)


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Not to an awful lot of golf fans who think he’s a knob
		
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Suggest those fans Do a bit of research and follow some of his socials as he is a decent bloke who's done more for growing the game recently than most.

Entering the long drive champ and bringing interest to them was big for them and got people interested.

But hey people don't like different or change ...summed up entirely by this thread.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Suggest those fans Do a bit of research and follow some of his socials as he is a decent bloke who's done more for growing the game recently than most.

Entering the long drive champ and bringing interest to them was big for them and got people interested.

But hey people don't like different or change ...summed up entirely by this thread.
		
Click to expand...

…and some people like change for change’s sake, without even knowing the details. As evidenced by this thread 👍


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Suggest those fans Do a bit of research and follow some of his socials as he is a decent bloke who's done more for growing the game recently than most.

Entering the long drive champ and bringing interest to them was big for them and got people interested.

But hey people don't like different or change ...summed up entirely by this thread.
		
Click to expand...

Also, DeChambeau is a bore.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			…and some people like change for change’s sake, without even knowing the details. As evidenced by this thread 👍
		
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Nothing wrong with innovation 

Without it we would still be living in caves and removing the pin.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Also, DeChambeau is a bore.
		
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In your opinion. Doesn't make it fact.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			In your opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
		
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Oh it does 👍


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing wrong with innovation

Without it we would still be living in caves and removing the pin.
		
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False equivalence I 🤔


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Not to an awful lot of golf fans who think he’s a knob
		
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So, interesting enough for that awful lot of golf fans to come to such a strong opinion on the guy? 

Sometimes fans tune in just so they can let off some steam and give their opinions on the pantomime villain. Whereas, fewer really care about the boring nice guys. I mean I doubt Scottie Scheffler has a bigger pull to fans than Bryson despite showing some great form and apparently a nice enough chap?


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, interesting enough for that awful lot of golf fans to come to such a strong opinion on the guy?

Sometimes fans tune in just so they can let off some steam and give their opinions on the pantomime villain. Whereas, fewer really care about the boring nice guys. I mean I doubt Scottie Scheffler has a bigger pull to fans than Bryson despite showing some great form and apparently a nice enough chap?
		
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Better to watch the no1 player than an overhyped Bluto


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## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2022)

Seems this thread has shown us there are a lot of knobs on here 😂


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## Swango1980 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Better to watch the no1 player than an overhyped Bluto
		
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Well, as individuals we all have our different tastes. I bet even Matthew Fitzpatrick has some devoted fans.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Seems this thread has shown us there are a lot of knobs on here 😂
		
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We have always known that to be fair


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Seems this thread has shown us there are a lot of knobs on here 😂
		
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the leccy car thread


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Reminds me of the leccy cat thread
		
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Those pesky plug in cats.

Much better to stick with the free range ones


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

Just watched the highlights on YouTube, thoughts:

Far too much of Phil shown
Schwartzel only popped up on the screen at the end (although I did skip a bit so he may have been on earlier)
As already mentioned, the leaderboard was annoying
Saw nothing of Westwood and only one clip of Poulter
My chosen team, the Cleeks, are rubbish
Will try and watch some live on Friday or Saturday, it might be better then.

Also, I've searched for a while but can't find a full leaderboard showing all the players anywhere.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Crow said:



			Just watched the highlights on YouTube, thoughts:

Far too much of Phil shown
Schwartzel only popped up on the screen at the end (although I did skip a bit so he may have been on earlier)
As already mentioned, the leaderboard was annoying
Saw nothing of Westwood and only one clip of Poulter
My chosen team, the Cleeks, are rubbish
Will try and watch some live on Friday or Saturday, it might be better then.

Also, I've searched for a while but can't find a full leaderboard showing all the players anywhere.
		
Click to expand...

https://dknation.draftkings.com/202...ndon-tournament-dustin-johnson-phil-mickelson

Scroll down


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Byrson is one of the most interesting golfers on tour.
		
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No, he really isn't. And he isn't a scientist, nor indeed a rationalist, either. He is a rather cynical brand.


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://dknation.draftkings.com/202...ndon-tournament-dustin-johnson-phil-mickelson

Scroll down
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, that explains why so little was shown of Westwood and Poulter.

I've only read the first couple of pages but the response Stateside seems to be more positive than I was expecting.
https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1881491-liv-golf-live-topic-moderated/


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2022)

Crow said:



			Thanks, that explains why so little was shown of Westwood and Poulter.

I've only read the first couple of pages but the response Stateside seems to be more positive than I was expecting.
https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1881491-liv-golf-live-topic-moderated/

Click to expand...

Doesn't surprise me, it was geared at the American market for sure 

Americans love making things louder


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://dknation.draftkings.com/202...ndon-tournament-dustin-johnson-phil-mickelson

Scroll down
		
Click to expand...

Well I can see why Ogletree took the money 😮


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Doesn't surprise me, it was geared at the American market for sure

Americans love making things louder
		
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I had to watch it on silent in the office.
In what way was it loud. The crowds?


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## AddisonRoad (Jun 9, 2022)

I went today as I picked up a free ticket from the code someone posted on the forum. Overall thoughts:

1. I would only go to this event again if it were free and if the crowd was as non-existent as it was today. There was barely anyone there, so it was cool to watch pros play from up close with no people in the way.

2. There wasn't anything spectacular going on. There was a putting contest to enter a draw to go to Miami for the final event of the series, as well as a bunker from which you could attempt to hit a stick for no prize. There were some food trucks and then some canned craft beers for sale (with other drinks). Now I don't particularly care about this element of the event, but I was expecting everything to be a bit more flash and absurd, considering how much they're trying to push the excesses of the new series.

3. I haven't been to a pro golf event recently, but the overall vibe of the day seemed very uncompetitive. It's basically an exhibition match with a bunch of golfers that looked unbothered.

4. I was shocked that there were a few people purchasing team shirts and walking around in them lol

Also, they had this absurdly loud drone following Mickelson's group. When I saw him putting on the third hole, the drone was so loud that I couldn't believe the golfers were okay with it. However, this might be something that happens at PGA events too.


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## srixon 1 (Jun 9, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Then the crap ones will be binned!! 😉
		
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The binned ones ought to be those with the least winnings.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			I went today as I picked up a free ticket from the code someone posted on the forum. Overall thoughts:

1. I would only go to this event again if it were free and if the crowd was as non-existent as it was today. There was barely anyone there, so it was cool to watch pros play from up close with no people in the way.

2. There wasn't anything spectacular going on. There was a putting contest to enter a draw to go to Miami for the final event of the series, as well as a bunker from which you could attempt to hit a stick for no prize. There were some food trucks and then some canned craft beers for sale (with other drinks). Now I don't particularly care about this element of the event, but I was expecting everything to be a bit more flash and absurd, considering how much they're trying to push the excesses of the new series.

3. I haven't been to a pro golf event recently, but the overall vibe of the day seemed very uncompetitive. It's basically an exhibition match with a bunch of golfers that looked unbothered.

4. I was shocked that there were a few people purchasing team shirts and walking around in them lol

Also, they had this *absurdly* *loud* *drone* following Mickelson's group. When I saw him putting on the third hole, the drone was so loud that I couldn't believe the golfers were okay with it. However, this might be something that happens at PGA events too.
		
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Well they do advertise it as golf , but loud. Now we know why!


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2022)

srixon 1 said:



			The binned ones ought to be those with the least winnings.
		
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Imagine binning Mickleson after paying him a truck load🤣


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## Crow (Jun 9, 2022)

A quick look at Centurion from MrShortGame Golf, whose YouTube channel I quite like anyway, showing some of the course and the club itself.

I played there several years back before the new clubhouse was built and I think I preferred the temporary clubhouse as it was, much more homely. The new clubhouse seems too corporate and the "Whisky Room" is gross!





,


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## sunshine (Jun 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The most popular sport on the planet has a team that can change from week to week. Over time, the players change completely, but people still support that team.

The LIV team concpet is similair to that, but just condensed into a shorter time frame.
		
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You’re embarrassing yourself now


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## AussieKB (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			No, he really isn't. And he isn't a scientist, nor indeed a rationalist, either. He is a rather cynical brand.
		
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Funny how Chamblee and co always waffling on about how innovative he was, now they will treat him like dirt, guess I know who butters their bread, ha ha


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Reminds me of the leccy car thread
		
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Ha ha, this x 10, some proper rudeness on show.
Oooh, is that me virtue signalling as well 🙈😂


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			Also, they had this *absurdly loud drone* following Mickelson's group. When I saw him putting on the third hole, the drone was so loud that I couldn't believe the golfers were okay with it. However, this might be something that happens at PGA events too.
		
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Was it somebody off here?


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## Slab (Jun 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That wasn't the question. It was, is youtube the only medium world wide or has it some traditional channels in the USA or elsewhere in the world ?
		
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I haven't checked worldwide but continent of Africa we can get it on telly through the local satellite provider. I assume some other countries will also have done broadcast deals but I totally get the confusion because all the UK based media/blogs etc kept saying its on YT/FB only... but never really qualified that by saying "in the UK"


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## Slab (Jun 10, 2022)

Not sure how much of a fan/supporter I'll be yet but certainly not anti-liv, enjoyed what I saw so far. The leader board will take a bit of adjusting but was same on motorsport when they started using it, but its still professional golf so I'm gonna watch
On the TV broadcast I had to really listen hard to even hear the 'tone' that played when a players name was highlighted, so that wasn't an issue for me (thankfully) 
Very pleased with how many shots we saw, like watching the 1 hour highlights from a 'regular' tour event except it wasn't just putts (which is the kind of sub-standard nonsense we've been fed so far if you don't watch live)

Will be watching to see how their application for awarding world ranking points goes, not sure on what grounds it might be declined given strength of field compared to some of the minor tours where points are already available   

Saw a few comments on size of crowds etc but for info... and maybe others saw the report on BBC that said, the attendance was _*capped *_at 8k per day 
That's obviously gonna look a little sparse on tv given the 16 hole shotgun start but I've no idea why there was a cap for this event, maybe course or local infrastructure


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383913691410698242
😂😂 oops
		
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Ouch. Self inflicted burns are the worst. 🤣. Also...

Sergio Garcia (+1), Graeme McDowell (+4), Lee Westwood (+5), Ian Poulter (+5)

Poulter delivering junk mail these days?


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Funny how Chamblee and co always waffling on about how innovative he was, now they will treat him like dirt, guess I know who butters their bread, ha ha
		
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If there was a playing benefit to one length clubs, more players would be doing it. But there really isn't, and there are disadvantages with short clubs. Testing and technical analysis of swings and shot outcomes are incredibly good these days. BdC also generated all sorts of nonsensical coverage about how he took all sorts of insignificant factors into account, and he reportedly tested his golf balls for balance, and rejected many. That may have been OK in Ben Hogan's days (who died the same) when balls had wound centres, but was laughable with modern sold manufacturing and tolerances. 

He liked this image of him as a scientist, so played to it. A basic degree in a science subject does not a scientist make. And his muscle building campaign - he gained muscle rather quickly, and I think some science, likely pharmacological, was involved. That would also explain the injuries that have resulted. Maybe LIV is more relaxed about testing players.


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If there was a playing benefit to one length clubs, more players would be doing it.
		
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Indeed. Its just an idea that one latches on to, but really is just cosmetic, or a mental crutch, like aimpoint, caddies eyeing putts flat on the ground, or lines on balls, and not really of any true physical benefit.
He is novelty though, and I think he has contributed to highlighting the distance problem, increasing pressure on the authorities to shorten the ball.
He is a loss to the main tour I think.


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## evemccc (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Won't really miss any of them. Bryson is a freak show, Fowler is a busted flush, Wolff is heading that way too, Perez was never a major figure and Reed is ..... Reed.
		
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Pretty sure Fowler and Bryson are two of the biggest names to advertisers, and both appeal to advertisers favourite demographic, the ‘yoof’


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If there was a playing benefit to one length clubs, more players would be doing it. But there really isn't, and there are disadvantages with short clubs. Testing and technical analysis of swings and shot outcomes are incredibly good these days. BdC also generated all sorts of nonsensical coverage about how he took all sorts of insignificant factors into account, and he reportedly tested his golf balls for balance, and rejected many. That may have been OK in Ben Hogan's days (who died the same) when balls had wound centres, but was laughable with modern sold manufacturing and tolerances. 

He liked this image of him as a scientist, so played to it. A basic degree in a science subject does not a scientist make. And his muscle building campaign - he gained muscle rather quickly, and I think some science, likely pharmacological, was involved. That would also explain the injuries that have resulted. Maybe LIV is more relaxed about testing players.
		
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Sounds like you don't like him due to false claims of him being a scientist. Hate to break it to you if you were a fan of Arnold Palmer, but I'm told he wasn't actually a King


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If there was a playing benefit to one length clubs, more players would be doing it. But there really isn't, and there are disadvantages with short clubs. Testing and technical analysis of swings and shot outcomes are incredibly good these days. BdC also generated all sorts of nonsensical coverage about how he took all sorts of insignificant factors into account, and he reportedly tested his golf balls for balance, and rejected many. That may have been OK in Ben Hogan's days (who died the same) when balls had wound centres, but was laughable with modern sold manufacturing and tolerances.

He liked this image of him as a scientist, so played to it. A basic degree in a science subject does not a scientist make. And his muscle building campaign - he gained muscle rather quickly, and I think some science, likely pharmacological, was involved. That would also explain the injuries that have resulted. Maybe LIV is more relaxed about testing players.
		
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Pros start playing very very young. When did one lengths become a proper alternative this time round what 2016? So you won't see many more pros coming through using them for a few more years yet .. 

I doubt a very good pro would change unless they are a "freak" like you say about Bryson


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sounds like you don't like him due to false claims of him being a scientist. Hate to break it to you if you were a fan of Arnold Palmer, but I'm told he wasn't actually a King
		
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Hold on does this mean tiger isn't a cat?????


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Indeed. Its just an idea that one latches on to, but really is just cosmetic, or a mental crutch, like aimpoint, caddies eyeing putts flat on the ground, or lines on balls, and not really of any true physical benefit.
He is novelty though, and I think he has contributed to highlighting the distance problem, increasing pressure on the authorities to shorten the ball.
He is a loss to the main tour I think.
		
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All of them are a loss to the tour, take away Bryson and you take away the rivalry with "Brooksy", and that's just one element. All these players, Phil, DJ, Sergio and his tantrums, Poulter and his trousers, Kevin Na and his slow play - it all generates talking points which add to the appeal. 

The PGA tour has lost out big time, and it's their own doing.

Unless the R&A, USGA, Masters and PGA of America come out and stand alongside the PGA Tour, these guys will in the main still get in to the some or all of the majors, so the PGA have left themselves with a bunch of events that make up the numbers, with a lot of the big names in golf banned by them, from participating in.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All of them are a loss to the tour, take away Bryson and you take away the rivalry with "Brooksy", and that's just one element. All these players, Phil, DJ, Sergio and his tantrums, Poulter and his trousers, Kevin Na and his slow play - it all generates talking points which add to the appeal.

The PGA tour has lost out big time, and it's their own doing.

Unless the R&A, USGA, Masters and PGA of America come out and stand alongside the PGA Tour, these guys will in the main still get in to the some or all of the majors, so the PGA have left themselves with a bunch of events that make up the numbers, with a lot of the big names in golf banned by them, from participating in.
		
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I see no point the masters banning people 

If they can't get points players won't get invites and the only ones that will get in will be past winners like DJ , Louis , Phil and Garcia 

Now what would banning achieve? Only DJ would be likely to even win


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I see no point the masters banning people

If they can't get points players won't get invites and the only ones that will get in will be past winners like DJ , Louis , Phil and Garcia

Now what would banning achieve? Only DJ would be likely to even win
		
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Yeah, personally I feel the PGA Tour have shown nothing but petulance all the way through this. They've actually fuelled the interest in LIV with their actions. 

There'll be pressure from the sponsors of the major to have the most interesting field possible available as well of course. And just like with the LIV series, money talks.


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All of them are a loss to the tour, take away Bryson and you take away the rivalry with "Brooksy", and that's just one element. All these players, Phil, DJ, Sergio and his tantrums, Poulter and his trousers, Kevin Na and his slow play - it all generates talking points which add to the appeal.

The PGA tour has lost out big time, and it's their own doing.

Unless the R&A, USGA, Masters and PGA of America come out and stand alongside the PGA Tour, these guys will in the main still get in to the some or all of the majors, so the PGA have left themselves with a bunch of events that make up the numbers, with a lot of the big names in golf banned by them, from participating in.
		
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I dont think they all are. Most of us havent heard of most of the golfers at Centurion. Even if the quality will uograde as they discard some of the temps.
But prume career majors challengers and holders are the key to both. Phil is no loss. Poults and the likes little loss too. But Reed would be. BdC would be. DJ is. They are the ones that define the quality of a field in any tournament, and why this weeks LIV at least, is a non tournament in a world golf sense. The quality of the field is abysmal.


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## AussieKB (Jun 10, 2022)

If Phil has life membership of the PGA are they going to rescind that now, very petty if they do, but I would not be surprised.


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## AddisonRoad (Jun 10, 2022)

Slab said:



			Not sure how much of a fan/supporter I'll be yet but certainly not anti-liv, enjoyed what I saw so far. The leader board will take a bit of adjusting but was same on motorsport when they started using it, but its still professional golf so I'm gonna watch
On the TV broadcast I had to really listen hard to even hear the 'tone' that played when a players name was highlighted, so that wasn't an issue for me (thankfully)
Very pleased with how many shots we saw, like watching the 1 hour highlights from a 'regular' tour event except it wasn't just putts (which is the kind of sub-standard nonsense we've been fed so far if you don't watch live)

Will be watching to see how their application for awarding world ranking points goes, not sure on what grounds it might be declined given strength of field compared to some of the minor tours where points are already available  

Saw a few comments on size of crowds etc but for info... and maybe others saw the report on BBC that said, the attendance was _*capped *_at 8k per day
That's obviously gonna look a little sparse on tv given the 16 hole shotgun start but I've no idea why there was a cap for this event, maybe course or local infrastructure
		
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In regards to them capping the event

1) I don't think there was anywhere near 8k there yesterday 

2) That seems like a convenient press release when they were literally giving away tickets for free. I assume this was because they had barely sold any, as most of the people I spoke to at the event were in the same boat as me - they got free tickets with a code online


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I see no point the masters banning people 

If they can't get points players won't get invites and the only ones that will get in will be past winners like DJ , Louis , Phil and Garcia 

Now what would banning achieve? Only DJ would be likely to even win
		
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NLU podcast claimed willet reached out to Augusta to gauge if they would let him play if he signed up 

You wouldn’t even be welcome on the property was the response 

Phil wearing a Masters gilet with the logo blacked out by marker pen on the 1st tee was odd yesterday also 

I think they’re the only major currently that would ban players but it’s a long time till the next masters


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## AussieKB (Jun 10, 2022)

Depreston said:



			NLU podcast claimed willet reached out to Augusta to gauge if they would let him play if he signed up

You wouldn’t even be welcome on the property was the response

Phil wearing a Masters gilet with the logo blacked out by marker pen on the 1st tee was odd yesterday also

I think they’re the only major currently that would ban players but it’s a long time till the next masters
		
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Augusta is a law onto themselves, so I would not listen to scuttlebutt at this stage, a lot of lawyers will be involved before the end of this year at least.


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

I cant see how the Master would care one way or another how players earn their money or what other tournaments they play. It is their closed shop. LIV is zero threat to them. They have no competitive conflict with each other. The Master will invite the worlds best golfers, full stop.


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## evemccc (Jun 10, 2022)

Aside from anything else, if Augusta did that, it would rightfully give those who say the US Masters isn’t a Major, more ammunition 


As an aside, as a big tennis fan, I think the Wimbledon ban on Russian and Belarusian players this summer is equally absurd


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## Slab (Jun 10, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			In regards to them capping the event

1) I don't think there was anywhere near 8k there yesterday

2) That seems like a convenient press release when they were literally giving away tickets for free. I assume this was because they had barely sold any, as most of the people I spoke to at the event were in the same boat as me - they got free tickets with a code online
		
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I think you said you were there so will certainly have a better feel for number of boots on the ground. I'm just suggesting that anyone that expected to see 20k-30k of punters on telly, then it was never gonna happen anyway
I think most ticket events have freebies, seems like there was plenty available for this judging by what folks are saying  

I wonder if the limited spectator cap might also offer a bit of an insight why ticket prices were initially set (too) high If the rocky build up had been smoother and the few marque names had committed earlier then interest/demand would've also been higher I guess


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Interestingly, the prices are the same at Portland, around the 70 dollar mark. Wages of course are hgher in the USA, so the price is cheaper realtively. 

I'd imagine there'll be bigger and more vocal crowds at the next one.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Slab said:



			I think you said you were there so will certainly have a better feel for number of boots on the ground. I'm just suggesting that anyone that expected to see 20k-30k of punters on telly, then it was never gonna happen anyway
I think most ticket events have freebies, seems like there was plenty available for this judging by what folks are saying  

I wonder if the limited spectator cap might also offer a bit of an insight why ticket prices were initially set (too) high If the rocky build up had been smoother and the few marque names had committed earlier then interest/demand would've also been higher I guess
		
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Mentioned yesterday, the course itself looked a lot tighter that your typical PGA event. Often it appeared one side of the fairway was just dense trees and out of bounds.

Would this be a reason for limited spectators? It is a lot easier for tens of thousands of spectators at huge courses and lots of areas for spectators to stand, coupled with many grandstands.

Furthermore, how many regular golf fans truly know much about it yet? We've talked about it to death in this forum, but outside of here it is not a regular big event fans know about for months, and plan their schedule in advance to attend. The guys in my golf whatsapp chat didn't know much about it, but sort of started asking questions a few days ago when it hit the main news headlines. When DJ entered it probably became big news, but not early enough for many to plan a visit.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

It needs packed courses, plenty of the top 10 players and paying spectators to be successful. TV isn't interested in paying big money for lower ranked players in front of empty galleries.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Mentioned yesterday, the course itself looked a lot tighter that your typical PGA event. Often it appeared one side of the fairway was just dense trees and out of bounds.

Would this be a reason for limited spectators? It is a lot easier for tens of thousands of spectators at huge courses and lots of areas for spectators to stand, coupled with many grandstands.

Furthermore, how many regular golf fans truly know much about it yet? We've talked about it to death in this forum, but outside of here it is not a regular big event fans know about for months, and plan their schedule in advance to attend. The guys in my golf whatsapp chat didn't know much about it, but sort of started asking questions a few days ago when it hit the main news headlines. When DJ entered it probably became big news, but not early enough for many to plan a visit.
		
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I've been talking about to a few golf friends and most weren't aware 

Some were interested by the format and liked how quick fire it was


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)




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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Pros start playing very very young. When did one lengths become a proper alternative this time round what 2016? So you won't see many more pros coming through using them for a few more years yet ..

I doubt a very good pro would change unless they are a "freak" like you say about Bryson
		
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Other flavours of one length, e.g. reduced change in length, have been around since at least the 80s. Adoption of new stuff is very fast these days. I doubt we will see any other serious players adopting them. They help what would otherwise have been longer clubs more, players don't use them so much, but they impair what would otherwise be shorter clubs and players use those clubs a lot more than they used to. 

Bryson is a brand, and he has chosen this scientist/beast as his brand. No doubt LIV will choose some courses that suit his style of play. Phil is 51, so his role is only to kickstart LIV, but someone is needed to carry it forward. DJ has no personality, so it won't be him, so BdC is the putative figurehead and he will have to win stuff in that role. Expect to see lots of connections to US betting and probably CBD and other stuff that is on-brand for the demographic they are targeting.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 10, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			In regards to them capping the event

1) I don't think there was anywhere near 8k there yesterday

2) That seems like a convenient press release when they were literally giving away tickets for free. I assume this was because they had barely sold any, as most of the people I spoke to at the event were in the same boat as me - they got free tickets with a code online
		
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Im going on Sat - what was the parking stuff like?

Food readily avaliable?


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534992729654149143


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Saw this on twitter. Yes the viewers are more but sky have this on TV so will be wrong

However Liv golf on YouTube has more subscription numbers than skygolf on YouTube


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## Bdill93 (Jun 10, 2022)

Still got a few tickets for tomorrow if anyone wants them!


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 42997
View attachment 42998


Saw this on twitter. Yes the viewers are more but sky have this on TV so will be wrong

However Liv golf on YouTube has more subscription numbers than skygolf on YouTube
		
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Was looking into the American viewing figures for pga tour events… Charles shwaab so bog standard event on the Calendar this year… on a Thursday 368k on the Golf Channel  

Rose to 2.43 million on the Sunday


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Was looking into the American viewing figures for pga tour events… Charles shwaab so bog standard event on the Calendar this year… on a Thursday 368k on the Golf Channel 

Rose to 2.43 million on the Sunday
		
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I don't think Liv will get above 250k this Saturday


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## Bdill93 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't think Liv will get above 250k this Saturday
		
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I agree! 150-200k max I imagine!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All of them are a loss to the tour, take away Bryson and you take away the rivalry with "Brooksy", and that's just one element. All these players, Phil, DJ, Sergio and his tantrums, Poulter and his trousers, Kevin Na and his slow play - it all generates talking points which add to the appeal.

The PGA tour has lost out big time, and it's their own doing.
		
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Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite 

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact 




			Unless the R&A, USGA, Masters and PGA of America come out and stand alongside the PGA Tour, these guys will in the main still get in to the some or all of the majors, so the PGA have left themselves with a bunch of events that make up the numbers, with a lot of the big names in golf banned by them, from participating in.
		
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The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC 

So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event


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## rksquire (Jun 10, 2022)

Waiting for this to start so that things become more clear has really only made things less so.

From the Canadian pressers on Wednesday and general chat it was clear the PGA Tour intended to wait until LIV had teed off to release their statement.  Not sure where I fall on that (strategic masterclass to take some attention of LIV during the event or actually just a bit petty and silly - consequences were well anticipated).

Streaming PGA vs LIV vs DPWT on Youtube was brave - as others have said, viewing numbers are pretty inconclusive except, I believe, in the case of the DPWT.  That tour is now essentially done and dusted - not just because they can only muster viewers in the 100s online, but because tickets are still available for attendance every day, the field and leaderboard is worse than LIVs, the stars are hard pushed to turn up for their own Opens (looking at you McIlroy) etc.

Everybody on course at the one time from the - great from a TV/online viewing perspective.  Some of the golf was really good.  Some, not so much... but the course certainly doesn't set up as a gift.  The motor racing style leaderboard is okay, needs some work in my opinion - as others mentioned, the 'noise' is annoying, incorporating the team logos into the individual leaderboard is F1-esque but I'm not used to that yet.  The commentary was alright.  The spectators using their phones to capture moments (when Phil was in a tight spot) - I imagine this will be actively encouraged to promote social media feeds etc.

Having listened to BBC Sounds podcast last night with people with alternative views to Carter (even quite soft with regard to the Asian tour chief), if I was in the DPWT I would be extremely worried.  The Asian Tour having accepted money and an alliance will greatly benefit and players interested in world ranking points and other tournament qualifications will clearly be joining the Asian Tour.  With enough money and power I'm sure they'll be thinking they can strengthen the field and therefore the points.  The PGA and DPWT clearly haven't closed all loopholes.  If I was the DPWT I'd be finding a way to live together - there's a good chance the riches of LIV combined with the DPWT schedule, ranking points and legitimacy could see the PGA Tour relegated to second best. 

Thomas and McIlroy, from their comments, also appear to think others will have a price.  BDC is a blow, Fowler not so much but he is marketable.  If Brooks goes... pretty sure others will follow.  The thing about LIV is that it's modern but manufactured; in time that will produce manufactured superstars but you won't necessarily know their quality.


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## AddisonRoad (Jun 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Im going on Sat - what was the parking stuff like?

Food readily avaliable?
		
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In terms of parking, you park at a showground and they shuttle you in on buses. Since the attendance was so low, this was entirely painless - the bus was immediately available and you didn't have to line up to leave (and we left pretty much right after the golf finished, so we were assuming we'd have to wait a bit).

In terms of food, there are plenty of independent food trucks in the main entertainment area, as well as scattered at a few other locations around the course. Again, you didn't need to wait long to be served. Also, if you're at one of the bars that's on an elevated platform looking at multiple holes, it will likely serve food (it doesn't look like these places serve food, but if you ask they have a menu and the food is actually decent).


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## rksquire (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact



The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC

*So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event*

Click to expand...

See my point above about the Asian Tour - it appears a 'loophole' exists and is being explored, they are expecting (or have received) applications to join an official Tour (a Tour that already feels badly let down by the DPWT and PGA moving into their territory).  The BBC has a podcast about LIV (released a day or so ago) and it is not good news for the DPWT.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact



The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC

So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event
		
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Phil, I quite specifically said that "these guys", as in the ones I'd mention, would in the main get in to some or all of the majors - by expemtion or invite. 
I know the lesser known players cant (at the moment) get OWGR ranking points on the LIV series, they can get them on other tours of course, even though they have less value than on the PGA Tour - so probably still not enough to qualify. Having said that, how many would qualify anyway - how many would even get on the PGA Tour - you've seen the cost of going through Q school I take it.

You are just judging the players value to the tour based on their ability, not their marketability, and at the end of the day - everything boils down to money - there will be PGA Tour sponsors right now asking the PGA Tour, "why have you binned off player x - he's part of the reason we fund your organisation"

Also, what happens when the LIV series starts creating high profile players on it's own merit. There's a couple of guys at the top of the leaderboard who are unknowns, if they beat DJ, Phil, Na, Louis etc, they haven't got lucky to beat them all, they've done it on merit, against high ranking players. 

The public, will then WANT to see them in the higher profile events, where they can go head to head with what the PGA Tour claims are the best players in the World.
The sponsors will want them involved too, and as I keep saying, money talks.


----------



## Bdill93 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact



The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC

So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event
		
Click to expand...


We've lost a good handful of top british talent from the PGA tour though. Thats significant.


AddisonRoad said:



			In terms of parking, you park at a showground and they shuttle you in on buses. Since the attendance was so low, this was entirely painless - the bus was immediately available and you didn't have to line up to leave (and we left pretty much right after the golf finished, so we were assuming we'd have to wait a bit).

In terms of food, there are plenty of independent food trucks in the main entertainment area, as well as scattered at a few other locations around the course. Again, you didn't need to wait long to be served. Also, if you're at one of the bars that's on an elevated platform looking at multiple holes, it will likely serve food (it doesn't look like these places serve food, but if you ask they have a menu and the food is actually decent).
		
Click to expand...

Cheers mate! Appreciate the response!

Looking forward to a walk around Centurion and to see the pros in real life! Might be a few cheeky bevs in there too


----------



## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Other flavours of one length, e.g. reduced change in length, have been around since at least the 80s. Adoption of new stuff is very fast these days. I doubt we will see any other serious players adopting them. They help what would otherwise have been longer clubs more, players don't use them so much, but they impair what would otherwise be shorter clubs and players use those clubs a lot more than they used to.

Bryson is a brand, and he has chosen this scientist/beast as his brand. No doubt LIV will choose some courses that suit his style of play. Phil is 51, so his role is only to kickstart LIV, but someone is needed to carry it forward. DJ has no personality, so it won't be him, so BdC is the putative figurehead and he will have to win stuff in that role. Expect to see lots of connections to US betting and probably CBD and other stuff that is on-brand for the demographic they are targeting.
		
Click to expand...

Works for Bryson though, does it not. Stiff shafts are not for everyone, flexible shafts are not for everyone. Some like thick grips, other thin grips. Bryson has a fairly unique golf swing and body shape. He has probably evaluated his own swing and the golf equipment he uses more than most other people, and I am almost certain he knows what works best for him better than you know what works for him. Fair play for him thinking outside the box and coming up with something unique.

If he had been some 28 handicap duffer at your club, I would be more likely to agree with you.


----------



## evemccc (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact



The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC

So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think Morikawa ‘moved the needle’ at all before summer of 2020 and Sam Burns, currently No. 2 in the FedEx Cup leaderboard doesn’t one move it one iota today 

Patrick Cantlay No. 4 in the FE Cup isn’t going to help many advertisers as nearly as much as Bryson, Phil, DJ, and Bubba…irrespective of rankings. The PGA Tour is controlled by money from advertisers. Sorry but this is a truism. And the No. 5 Justin Thomas, seemingly the ultimate ‘preppy country club spoilt kid’  has all the charisma of a wet fish 

The one thing however that could significantly help the PGA Tour is the Netflix  series


----------



## sunshine (Jun 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Losing Free to Air sport is disaster, there is quite a difference between having something aired on BBC1 for instance and something on YouTube. It is quite easy to stick on the TV and the golf come on, or there's not much good on and golf is the best option just have on in the background. YouTube may be free, but the person will have to deliberately go to the golf page in order to watch.

Are that many young people desperate to watch golf who cannot afford Sky that will watch it? I don't think so, the argument for losing free to air golf is that you lose the casual viewer who could potentially then become a fan
		
Click to expand...

My children don't watch TV channels, probably don't even know what BBC1 is. They watch everything on YouTube.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think you are going a touch overboard in regards how much the PGA Tour has currently lost - the only two that have any sort of impact are DJ and Phil Mickleson and even then DJ hasn’t been a highlight player for a year or so at the moment and Mickleson is very much marmite

If the likes of Rory , Morikawa , Smith , etc who are the future of golf moved across them it may well change things but until then the players going over won’t have too much of an impact



The R&A and USGA will allow anyone to qualify but without the ranking points the players will need to go through all stages of Qualfiying to gain entry - the Masters it’s normally top 50 world plus past winners and a few others , they don’t give out other invites so they won’t gain entry into The Masters unless a previous winner , the US PGA will work on ranking points again , same with WGC

So for the Tour to really get viable beyond a big pay day then it’s going to need to get ranking points but then the events are a different format so the level available might not be sufficient- until then it’s going to be as much mates said yesterday more like a very rich exhibition event
		
Click to expand...

I thought you said Rory would never go across,now you’re saying if.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I thought you said Rory would never go across,now you’re saying if.
		
Click to expand...


more u-turns than bojo


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			more u-turns than bojo
		
Click to expand...

Take a day off from the sniping comments - they add nothing to the thread but it’s becoming standard with you


----------



## Ethan (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Works for Bryson though, does it not. Stiff shafts are not for everyone, flexible shafts are not for everyone. Some like thick grips, other thin grips. Bryson has a fairly unique golf swing and body shape. He has probably evaluated his own swing and the golf equipment he uses more than most other people, and I am almost certain he knows what works best for him better than you know what works for him. Fair play for him thinking outside the box and coming up with something unique.

If he had been some 28 handicap duffer at your club, I would be more likely to agree with you.
		
Click to expand...

Am I upsetting you by not agreeing with all of your many, many posts on Saudi?

Bryson's golf swing is not unique. He pulls the club back and swings it at the ball. No more unique than any of the other leading players, precisely none of which use one length clubs. 

Since you are anxious to point out what you think I don't know, how do you know that BdC wouldn't perform better if he has conventional length wedges? How are you certain he has tested this and chosen it for performance rather than contrariness or brand? How do you know he has evaluated his swing more than most other people? I have seen quite a few examples on TV where his short game finesse was questionable, possibly because of the compensations needed to make his wedges the same length as his 4 iron. 

Thinking outside of the box is a trite cliche often used to explain odd and irrational behaviour. 

He can switch to a bag full of garden tools for all I care, but I won't conclude it must be due to a metaphysical elevation of consciousness to a higher astral plane that others have failed to achieve.


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## evemccc (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			He can switch to a bag full of garden tools for all I care, but I won't conclude it must be due to a metaphysical elevation of consciousness to a higher astral plane that others have failed to achieve.
		
Click to expand...

I think you’re missing the point - ‘it’s what works for him’ - and yes - I am 100% certain that someone who is an elite pro golfer (and has all the access to equipment and expertise that brings) does know what works for him 

He’s won a major, and several PGA Tour events, and earned millions — I don’t think he has to justify or prove anything about his equipment


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Am I upsetting you by not agreeing with all of your many, many posts on Saudi?

Bryson's golf swing is not unique. He pulls the club back and swings it at the ball. No more unique than any of the other leading players, precisely none of which use one length clubs.

Since you are anxious to point out what you think I don't know, how do you know that BdC wouldn't perform better if he has conventional length wedges? How are you certain he has tested this and chosen it for performance rather than contrariness or brand? How do you know he has evaluated his swing more than most other people? I have seen quite a few examples on TV where his short game finesse was questionable, possibly because of the compensations needed to make his wedges the same length as his 4 iron.

Thinking outside of the box is a trite cliche often used to explain odd and irrational behaviour.

He can switch to a bag full of garden tools for all I care, but I won't conclude it must be due to a metaphysical elevation of consciousness to a higher astral plane that others have failed to achieve.
		
Click to expand...

I don't even know why you mentioned the Saudis, completely irrelevant. Just throwing in a deflecting comment as you know you don't have much of a leg to stand on in the specific debate regarding Bryson's swing.

His swing is not unique because he pulls the club back and swings at the ball? That sentence in itself highlights you have no clue about the golf swing. It is about as true as saying the Ferrari F1 car is no different to a Ford Focus road car, because they both have 4 wheels and drive from one point to another. Ridiculous argument.

I know he has tested his swing more than most people, if you include all golfers including experts like yourself. Compared to other professionals, absolutely no idea. But, the fact he has tried something completely different would suggest a lot of work has gone on behind the scenes. I am also making a fairly reasonable assumption that he and his people want to ensure he is the best golfer he can possibly be, and seek marginal gains to compete with the other best players in the world. As I don't stand over his shoulder 24 hours a day, I am going to say that is a fair assumption. Maybe you have the benefit of being present when he does this, but I am going to rule that out as a possibility. 

I have seen plenty of professionals using standard length clubs who have a questionable short game, long game, mid game, etc. I'm not silly enough to believe that using the perfect fit clubs for an individual golfer will suddenly make them the perfect golfer in all aspects of their game. If regular sized clubs were better for his short game, why doesn't he use them? He could at least put a few regular wedges in his bag, along with all the same length irons for his full shots.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't even know why you mentioned the Saudis, completely irrelevant. Just throwing in a deflecting comment as you know you don't have much of a leg to stand on in the specific debate regarding Bryson's swing.

His swing is not unique because he pulls the club back and swings at the ball? That sentence in itself highlights you have no clue about the golf swing. It is about as true as saying the Ferrari F1 car is no different to a Ford Focus road car, because they both have 4 wheels and drive from one point to another. Ridiculous argument.

I know he has tested his swing more than most people, if you include all golfers including experts like yourself. Compared to other professionals, absolutely no idea. But, the fact he has tried something completely different would suggest a lot of work has gone on behind the scenes. I am also making a fairly reasonable assumption that he and his people want to ensure he is the best golfer he can possibly be, and seek marginal gains to compete with the other best players in the world. As I don't stand over his shoulder 24 hours a day, I am going to say that is a fair assumption. Maybe you have the benefit of being present when he does this, but I am going to rule that out as a possibility.

I have seen plenty of professionals using standard length clubs who have a questionable short game, long game, mid game, etc. I'm not silly enough to believe that using the perfect fit clubs for an individual golfer will suddenly make them the perfect golfer in all aspects of their game. If regular sized clubs were better for his short game, why doesn't he use them? He could at least put a few regular wedges in his bag, along with all the same length irons for his full shots.
		
Click to expand...

"Experts like yourself". That is a rather bitchy and unnecessary comment, especially when you are trying to show you have insight into the uniqueness of BdC's swing and the way he has rigorously tested it above all others. 

Anyway, I don't think you even understood what I said. The question is whether BdC has tested his swing more than his peers. It is imbecilic to compare him on that question to the average amateur golfer, such as me, and I didn't compare him to you either. If swings are unique, they are all unique, and in that regard BdC's swing is not some rare outlier in which the laws of physics are suspended, or that is so much different from his peers, yes peers, not me. And the physics of golf club design and golf ball launch mean that there is a reason why clubs have different lengths for different lofts and why there are drawbacks to one length clubs and therefore why no other leading player, all of whom have been analysed with lasers, slo-mo cameras and the like, use one length. 

"I'm not silly enough to believe that using the perfect fit clubs for an individual golfer will suddenly make them the perfect golfer in all aspects of their game." Well, you appear to be silly enough to think that someone, probably me, suggested otherwise. 

There will be no further replies.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Take a day off from the sniping comments - they add nothing to the thread but it’s becoming standard with you
		
Click to expand...





Apply to every thread


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			"Experts like yourself". That is a rather bitchy and unnecessary comment, especially when you are trying to show you have insight into the uniqueness of BdC's swing and the way he has rigorously tested it above all others.

Anyway, I don't think you even understood what I said. The question is whether BdC has tested his swing more than his peers. It is imbecilic to compare him on that question to the average amateur golfer, such as me, and I didn't compare him to you either. If swings are unique, they are all unique, and in that regard BdC's swing is not some rare outlier in which the laws of physics are suspended, or that is so much different from his peers, yes peers, not me. And the physics of golf club design and golf ball launch mean that there is a reason why clubs have different lengths for different lofts and why there are drawbacks to one length clubs and therefore why no other leading player, all of whom have been analysed with lasers, slo-mo cameras and the like, use one length.

"I'm not silly enough to believe that using the perfect fit clubs for an individual golfer will suddenly make them the perfect golfer in all aspects of their game." Well, you appear to be silly enough to think that someone, probably me, suggested otherwise.

*There will be no further replies.*

Click to expand...

Thank goodness


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Am I upsetting you by not agreeing with all of your many, many posts on Saudi?

Bryson's golf swing is not unique. He pulls the club back and swings it at the ball. No more unique than any of the other leading players, precisely none of which use one length clubs.

Since you are anxious to point out what you think I don't know, how do you know that BdC wouldn't perform better if he has conventional length wedges? How are you certain he has tested this and chosen it for performance rather than contrariness or brand? How do you know he has evaluated his swing more than most other people? I have seen quite a few examples on TV where his short game finesse was questionable, possibly because of the compensations needed to make his wedges the same length as his 4 iron.

Thinking outside of the box is a trite cliche often used to explain odd and irrational behaviour.

He can switch to a bag full of garden tools for all I care, but I won't conclude it must be due to a metaphysical elevation of consciousness to a higher astral plane that others have failed to achieve.
		
Click to expand...

Bryson has a very good short game? Every pro mucks up shots with every club 

He is also very underrated with his putter


----------



## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Well, it's got Alan Shipnucks approval.

https://firepitcollective.com/business-as-usual/


HEMEL HEMPSTEAD, England — In the end, it all felt so…routine? One of the most freighted days in the recent history of the sport began with trumpets blaring and was interrupted by a trans-Atlantic saber-rattling, but across the grounds at Centurion Club, a rather normal golf tournament broke out on Thursday. Poulter preened, Sergio pouted, Dustin strutted, Phil grinned and a surprisingly robust crowd spooned it all up. For all the angst created by LIV Golf—more specifically, by the taint of its Saudi money—and all the lip service paid to its (modest) innovations, the inaugural tournament felt pretty much like a run-of-the-mill event on the European or PGA Tour. 

For LIV, that has to be considered a monumental achievement.

“You could feel it’s different,” first-round leader Charl Schwartzel said of the much-ballyhooed shotgun start. “I was standing on the 3rd tee box for about 10 minutes, and there was nobody with me. And eventually I took my phone out and I was phoning Graeme [McDowell]. I said, ‘Graeme, mate, where are you? Am I on the right tee box?’ That made it very different for me than what you would be used to, being announced on the 1st tee. But then once you got going, it was just golf for me.”

At 2:15 p.m., just before the first shot was struck, a military flyover crowded the gunmetal-gray skies, but such theatrics were wholly unnecessary for one simple reason: Phil Mickelson was teeing it up again. It was his dalliance with LIV that had sent the Hall of Famer into a four-month exile. His return to public life began with an awkward but occasionally revealing pre-tournament press conference: It was significant and commendable that Mickelson spoke of his ongoing battle with a gambling addiction; the anecdotal evidence had long suggested he had a problem, but publicly taking ownership required courage and humility. He also walked back his previous callous comments about Saudi atrocities. Late-period Phil had become something of a cartoon character, with the aviator sunglasses, hair dye and all the crowing about his calves and the bombs he was hitting off the tee. Even with his carefully parsed press conference words, Mickelson displayed a little less hubris and a little more humanity. 

And during the first round, he seemed visibly relieved to re-enter his sanctuary between the ropes. On the first drive of the rest of his life, Mickelson roasted one down the middle, and he grinded with an intensity that belied the tournament’s lack of gravitas. Precise iron play overcame some sloppy driving and rusty putting, and Mickelson’s opening 69 put him in a tie for seventh, four strokes back of Schwartzel. Mickelson competed with the determination of a man who knows that how he will be remembered will depend in part on the success of a renegade tour he helped launch. Is his name destined to be spoken with reverence like Curt Flood’s, as an agent of change who reshaped the sports landscape? Or will this last act of Mickelson’s career evoke Jake LaMotta in Las Vegas, as a past-his-prime palooka serving as a curiosity for fans who are drawn by spectacle and not sport? When the round was over, Mickelson couldn’t hide his relief. (Deliverance was the overriding emotion of the day, as a couple of high-ranking Saudi dignitaries dispensed plenty of celebratory hugs throughout the round.) “I really enjoyed today,” Mickelson said. “It was fun for me to get back out playing. It’s a very cool energy here.” 

Mickelson’s group attracted by far the biggest gallery of the day, though it surely helped that he was playing alongside Dustin Johnson; at 15 in the OWGR, DJ is the highest-ranked player in the 48-man field. The crowd was unmoored, especially early in the round, with many fans simply ducking under the ropes to get closer to the action. In a shallow field, the more established players needed to deliver for LIV, and Johnson fought his way to a 69 despite push-slicing a drive O.B. on the 7th hole. Along with Mickelson and Schwartzel, that’s three Masters champions on the leaderboard. Meanwhile, the top eight spots at the PGA Tour’s concurrent Canadian Open are being held down by Wyndham Clark, Matt Fitzpatrick, Doug Ghim, Harold Varner, Mac Hughes, Lee Hodges, Tony Finau and some dude named McIlroy. The lack of starpower at the top of the leaderboard illustrates what a threat LIV has already become to the PGA Tour, so it was no surprise that an hour after the first round commenced in England, an email leaked in which Tour commissioner Jay Monahan informed his constituents he was suspending the 17 Tour members who teed it up for LIV. This is the first gambit in what promises to be a long, complicated, legalistic battle that threatens to blow up the world order of professional golf. The ex-communicated didn’t learn their fate until stepping off the course. Ian Poulter was among those who said he was ready to fight. “I’ve done nothing wrong,” he maintained.

When it comes to LIV, very little is black-and-white. But after more than a year of talk and speculation and misdirection, one thing is abundantly clear: This new renegade tour is the real thing.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Bryson has a very good short game? Every pro mucks up shots with every club

He is also very underrated with his putter
		
Click to expand...

Bryson - SG Around the Green

2017 - 109th
2018 - 78th
2019 - 115th
2020 - 111th
2021 - 146th
2022 - n/a

Bryson - SG Putting

2017 - 145th
2018 - 32nd
2019 - 28th
2020 - 10th
2021 - 20th
2022 - n/a


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Bryson - SG Around the Green

2017 - 109th
2018 - 78th
2019 - 115th
2020 - 111th
2021 - 146th
2022 - n/a

Bryson - SG Putting

2017 - 145th
2018 - 32nd
2019 - 28th
2020 - 10th
2021 - 20th
2022 - n/a
		
Click to expand...

What's his tee to green strokes gained? As more greens hit in reg means less shots round the green 

I mean he was leading eagles last year


----------



## Imurg (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, it's got Alan Shipnucks approval.

https://firepitcollective.com/business-as-usual/


HEMEL HEMPSTEAD, England — In the end, it all felt so…routine? One of the most freighted days in the recent history of the sport began with trumpets blaring and was interrupted by a trans-Atlantic saber-rattling, but across the grounds at Centurion Club, a rather normal golf tournament broke out on Thursday. Poulter preened, Sergio pouted, Dustin strutted, Phil grinned and a surprisingly robust crowd spooned it all up. For all the angst created by LIV Golf—more specifically, by the taint of its Saudi money—and all the lip service paid to its (modest) innovations, the inaugural tournament felt pretty much like a run-of-the-mill event on the European or PGA Tour.

For LIV, that has to be considered a monumental achievement.

“You could feel it’s different,” first-round leader Charl Schwartzel said of the much-ballyhooed shotgun start. “I was standing on the 3rd tee box for about 10 minutes, and there was nobody with me. And eventually I took my phone out and I was phoning Graeme [McDowell]. I said, ‘Graeme, mate, where are you? Am I on the right tee box?’ That made it very different for me than what you would be used to, being announced on the 1st tee. But then once you got going, it was just golf for me.”

At 2:15 p.m., just before the first shot was struck, a military flyover crowded the gunmetal-gray skies, but such theatrics were wholly unnecessary for one simple reason: Phil Mickelson was teeing it up again. It was his dalliance with LIV that had sent the Hall of Famer into a four-month exile. His return to public life began with an awkward but occasionally revealing pre-tournament press conference: It was significant and commendable that Mickelson spoke of his ongoing battle with a gambling addiction; the anecdotal evidence had long suggested he had a problem, but publicly taking ownership required courage and humility. He also walked back his previous callous comments about Saudi atrocities. Late-period Phil had become something of a cartoon character, with the aviator sunglasses, hair dye and all the crowing about his calves and the bombs he was hitting off the tee. Even with his carefully parsed press conference words, Mickelson displayed a little less hubris and a little more humanity.

And during the first round, he seemed visibly relieved to re-enter his sanctuary between the ropes. On the first drive of the rest of his life, Mickelson roasted one down the middle, and he grinded with an intensity that belied the tournament’s lack of gravitas. Precise iron play overcame some sloppy driving and rusty putting, and Mickelson’s opening 69 put him in a tie for seventh, four strokes back of Schwartzel. Mickelson competed with the determination of a man who knows that how he will be remembered will depend in part on the success of a renegade tour he helped launch. Is his name destined to be spoken with reverence like Curt Flood’s, as an agent of change who reshaped the sports landscape? Or will this last act of Mickelson’s career evoke Jake LaMotta in Las Vegas, as a past-his-prime palooka serving as a curiosity for fans who are drawn by spectacle and not sport? When the round was over, Mickelson couldn’t hide his relief. (Deliverance was the overriding emotion of the day, as a couple of high-ranking Saudi dignitaries dispensed plenty of celebratory hugs throughout the round.) “I really enjoyed today,” Mickelson said. “It was fun for me to get back out playing. It’s a very cool energy here.”

Mickelson’s group attracted by far the biggest gallery of the day, though it surely helped that he was playing alongside Dustin Johnson; at 15 in the OWGR, DJ is the highest-ranked player in the 48-man field. The crowd was unmoored, especially early in the round, with many fans simply ducking under the ropes to get closer to the action. In a shallow field, the more established players needed to deliver for LIV, and Johnson fought his way to a 69 despite push-slicing a drive O.B. on the 7th hole. Along with Mickelson and Schwartzel, that’s three Masters champions on the leaderboard. Meanwhile, the top eight spots at the PGA Tour’s concurrent Canadian Open are being held down by Wyndham Clark, Matt Fitzpatrick, Doug Ghim, Harold Varner, Mac Hughes, Lee Hodges, Tony Finau and some dude named McIlroy. The lack of starpower at the top of the leaderboard illustrates what a threat LIV has already become to the PGA Tour, so it was no surprise that an hour after the first round commenced in England, an email leaked in which Tour commissioner Jay Monahan informed his constituents he was suspending the 17 Tour members who teed it up for LIV. This is the first gambit in what promises to be a long, complicated, legalistic battle that threatens to blow up the world order of professional golf. The ex-communicated didn’t learn their fate until stepping off the course. Ian Poulter was among those who said he was ready to fight. “I’ve done nothing wrong,” he maintained.

When it comes to LIV, very little is black-and-white. But after more than a year of talk and speculation and misdirection, one thing is abundantly clear: This new renegade tour is the real thing.
		
Click to expand...

Is the same Alan Shipnuck that got thrown out of PhillyMick's presser by Greg's heavies later in the day...🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Is the same Alan Shipnuck that got thrown out of PhillyMick's presser by Greg's heavies later in the day...🤔
		
Click to expand...

The very same.


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## IainP (Jun 10, 2022)

I have no skin in the argument, just an observation.
From last year's PGA Tour PIP thingy if we exclude TW as he's not playing on any tour, then it is looking like 4 from 9 have or are jumping (for now)


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What's his tee to green strokes gained? As more greens hit in reg means less shots round the green

I mean he was leading eagles last year
		
Click to expand...

Bryson: SG Approach

2017 - 114th
2018 - 12th
2019 - 54th
2020 - 12th
2021 - 53rd
2022 - n/a


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

Bryson - SG Tee to Green

2017 - 65th
2018 - 11th
2019 - 37th
2020 - 19th
2021 - 5th
2022 - n/a


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

Bryson - GIR %

2017 - 105th
2018 - 25th
2019 - 113th
2020 - 55th
2021 - 63rd
2022 - n/a


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

@Barking_Mad thanks for those, interesting read


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Just remembered the LIV Tour second round is in progress, so put it on. The feed started an hour ago, Viewers are currently at around 38,000. The maximum I personally noticed it yesterday was just over 100,000, though that was probably between 4-5pm. Not sure what it went to after 5pm, as I went up to my club for a bit of practice.

Will be interesting to see if viewing figures get to same level today, or if yesterday was higher due to the initial hype.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just remembered the LIV Tour second round is in progress, so put it on. The feed started an hour ago, Viewers are currently at around 38,000. The maximum I personally noticed it yesterday was just over 100,000, though that was probably between 4-5pm. Not sure what it went to after 5pm, as I went up to my club for a bit of practice.

Will be interesting to see if viewing figures get to same level today, or if yesterday was higher due to the initial hype.
		
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I know a lot of people who only watch golf events the last 9 holes of an event as that's when the action starts 

I reckon prime viewing will be end of day 

America ones will get more views due to timing


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## rksquire (Jun 10, 2022)

Re: viewing figures - 100k plus for the Youtube UK channel, difficult to know if that's success or not.  Better than some predicted, but for the money involved, the global figures will be of more interest; like Netflix I suspect LIV will keep this quiet initially.  

I think a 2.15pm start on a Thursday and Friday is a hard sell to a UK audience; most golf fans (not all) will be at work and may not be able to access the coverage; Finishing on a Saturday also means some golf fans will miss out as they are playing golf.

As live streams go, Sky are offering the Curtis Cup, Scandi Mixed and the Canadian - total audience of 2.5k (2.1k + 200 + 200) vs 43k watching LIV.... although there could be a few 100k watching SKY on actual TV in the UK so the comparison isn't really like for like.   I think at this stage it appears as if there's room for both the PGA Tour and LIV without either throwing their toys out of the pram.  The Asian Tour will have more say in the coming months; the DPWT is probably done unless they decide to break their alliance with the PGA Tour and talk to LIV about memberships and releases.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Re: viewing figures - 100k plus for the Youtube UK channel, difficult to know if that's success or not.  Better than some predicted, but for the money involved, the global figures will be of more interest; like Netflix I suspect LIV will keep this quiet initially.
		
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I was hoping to see what the total viewers was over the entire broadcast. As I said, I saw over 100,000 live at any given time, but I'm not sure many came and went. Sadly, I don't think viewers can see the Total Viewing figure over the entire broadcast, or I've just not found it.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

Pat Perez allegedly signed for $10m.

That's nearly a third of his lifetime PGA Tour earnings.


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Re: viewing figures - 100k plus for the Youtube UK channel, difficult to know if that's success or not.  Better than some predicted, but for the money involved, the global figures will be of more interest; like Netflix I suspect LIV will keep this quiet initially.

I think a 2.15pm start on a Thursday and Friday is a hard sell to a UK audience; most golf fans (not all) will be at work and may not be able to access the coverage; Finishing on a Saturday also means some golf fans will miss out as they are playing golf.

As live streams go, Sky are offering the Curtis Cup, Scandi Mixed and the Canadian - total audience of 2.5k (2.1k + 200 + 200) vs 43k watching LIV.... although there could be a few 100k watching SKY on actual TV in the UK so the comparison isn't really like for like.   I think at this stage it appears as if there's room for both the PGA Tour and LIV without either throwing their toys out of the pram.  The Asian Tour will have more say in the coming months; the DPWT is probably done unless they decide to break their alliance with the PGA Tour and talk to LIV about memberships and releases.
		
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Is the Liv golf YouTube channel geo blocked? I reckon that will include US viewers too


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Pat Perez allegedly signed for $10m.

That's nearly a third of his lifetime PGA Tour earnings.
		
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Perez, byrson, Fowler , reed all signing I believe .. Wolff strongly rumoured aswell 

I doubt this is going to go anywhere within 5 years


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

Interesting article tackling the major issues that could come from LIV.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pa...sports-do-not-work-pga-tour-super-golf-league


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## Springveldt (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I see no point the masters banning people

If they can't get points players won't get invites and the only ones that will get in will be past winners like DJ , Louis , Phil and Garcia

Now what would banning achieve? Only DJ would be likely to even win
		
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You forgot Schwartzel and it looks like Bubba and PReed are on their way as well. Adam Scott has made murmurings of wanting to play in more international events.

Those past champions dinners are going to start looking a bit sparse.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

On the one hand majors dont want to dilute their field by banning top players. On the other they might like the direction golf is headed, they are traditionalists after all. I suspect there are elements of hedging their bets to see how it plays out before committing.

Still amazed there's been nothing from the DP World Tour. Is something afoot?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			On the one hand majors dont want to dilute their field by banning top players. On the other they might like the direction golf is headed, they are traditionalists after all. I suspect there are elements of hedging their bets to see how it plays out before committing.

Still amazed there's been nothing from the DP World Tour. Is something afoot?
		
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I would not be surprised in the slightest if do world tour aligned with them

Let's think about it for a min, they live in the shadow of the PGA .. aligning with Liv would get all these banned golfers playing their events .. DJ on the ET? that's a huge pull .

It could potentially push the ET tour to on a much better footing 

Notice players resigned from the PGA but nobody from the DP world?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Bryson now confirmed.


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson now confirmed.
		
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Big that always thought he wasn’t in it for the long haul with the body transformation make his money and win a couple majors then get out of dodge


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson now confirmed.
		
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A few more purests cry out in joy because he does things different they don't like him.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			A few more purests cry out in joy because he does things different they don't like him.
		
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Portland will be a different level to the Centurion with crowd engagement. This is a big, big signing for the LIV series.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson now confirmed.
		
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Who cares, I'm told he isn't very interesting. I'm sure the PGA won't lose much sleep


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## Springveldt (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Pat Perez allegedly signed for $10m.

That's nearly a third of his lifetime PGA Tour earnings.
		
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At what point do guys below the top 10 in the FedEx rankings start getting the "Fear of missing out" if LIV start pulling these signing on fees when they have enough guys? If they are paying Pat Perez $10M just to sign, think what they must be offering others.

Although some think these guys aren't a big miss to the PGA Tour, it s definitely weakening their fields. What happens when Rory, JT, Rahm etc take their usual 4 months off over Oct-Jan and you have LIV with Bryson, Phil, DJ, PReed, Bubba etc with more to follow before then no doubt. Some of the Tour fields are going to look horrible.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Talking to someone at work 



"I don't watch golf often , I find it boring , it's been the same for years same 72 hole format

This is a much better idea for me I can see myself watching this a few times"

Now there is the target audience.. people who don't watch normally


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## Slab (Jun 10, 2022)

Scott Vincent reminds me of a vampire day walker from the Blade films


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 10, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			At what point do guys below the top 10 in the FedEx rankings start getting the "Fear of missing out" if LIV start pulling these signing on fees when they have enough guys? If they are paying Pat Perez $10M just to sign, think what they must be offering others.

Although some think these guys aren't a big miss to the PGA Tour, it s definitely weakening their fields. What happens when Rory, JT, Rahm etc take their usual 4 months off over Oct-Jan and you have LIV with Bryson, Phil, DJ, PReed, Bubba etc with more to follow before then no doubt. Some of the Tour fields are going to look horrible.
		
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Actually although these guys are big names the majority have struggled for a few years. There's been a changing of the guard in the last few years with the likes of Morikawa, Thomas, Scheffler, Hovland etc to the fore. I wonder if the likes of Watson and Reid etc were challenging regularly in the majors and big tournaments they'd join. Liv have been very clever in who they've targeted because they've only really pulled 2 big names, both of which have a love hate relationship with the tour, but they've given the impression of a big name exodus. The other names are all has beens


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Actually although these guys are big names the majority have struggled for a few years. There's been a changing of the guard in the last few years with the likes of Morikawa, Thomas, Scheffler, Hovland etc to the fore. I wonder if the likes of Watson and Reid etc were challenging regularly in the majors and big tournaments they'd join. Liv have been very clever in who they've targeted because they've only really pulled 2 big names, both of which have a love hate relationship with the tour, but they've given the impression of a big name exodus. The other names are all has beens
		
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That was always going to be the case though. The most in form, biggest players on the PGA Tour were never going to be the first ones to be attracted to LIV. They would be taking the biggest risk, with the most to lose if LIV ends up falling flat. Therefore, LIV was always going to attract older fading players, big reputations but not much steam to last much longer on the PGA. And then fill the other slots up with golfers at the other end of the scale, trying to make money they could never dream off on PGA (they may even struggle to make a cut).

It gets interesting when more and more high profile players get attracted across, who do still have some longevity on the PGA. DJ was the first to make things really interesting, he could easily have another 10 years on the PGA. Bryson is likely in the prime of his career, so he is yet a bigger draw. In fact, before his injury, he was most likely one of the most talked about players going into any big tournament, certainly if Tiger wasn't playing.

So, the plot thickens. What happens next. Who will be the next PGA Pro to blink? Are the PGA going to have to backtrack on bans, or risk permanently diluting their brand (either way, they are in a tricky position). Will the Majors allow all players to compete? Will DP World Tour allow the banned players to compete on their tour?


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2022)

What a surprise: sports professionals looking to maximise their income. 

Good luck to them; every other profession does the same.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Pat Perez allegedly signed for $10m.

That's nearly a third of his lifetime PGA Tour earnings.
		
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drdel said:



			What a surprise: sports professionals looking to maximise their income.

Good luck to them; every other profession does the same.
		
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I can't imagine Pat Perez is one of the 48 golfers they want involved in the LIV series if it really takes off. He needs to be making his money over the first few events as otherwise he could've torpedoed his PGA career for $10 million and get dropped from the LIV after a few tournaments if some bigger names want in.


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2022)

What the heck is that putter Schwartzel is using, it's grotesque


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## Springveldt (Jun 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't imagine Pat Perez is one of the 48 golfers they want involved in the LIV series if it really takes off. He needs to be making his money over the first few events as otherwise he could've torpedoed his PGA career for $10 million and get dropped from the LIV after a few tournaments if some bigger names want in.
		
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Does it really matter though? They have just handed him $10M without even playing. He plays a few events this year, it could be $15M by the end of the year. That's half his life earnings right there. How much more was he going to earn? How many years on the Champions Tour for that?

He's basically set himself up for retirement within a couple of years.

edit: Also, he's a brilliant interview. I hope some of the podcasts get him back on soon.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't imagine Pat Perez is one of the 48 golfers they want involved in the LIV series if it really takes off. He needs to be making his money over the first few events as otherwise he could've torpedoed his PGA career for $10 million and get dropped from the LIV after a few tournaments if some bigger names want in.
		
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Perez is 46 though, so probably worth the gamble for him at this stage in his career. Probably not even a gamble. Been a pro for about 25 years and made just shy of $29 million. Then gets $10 million at the age of 46, and it is probably unlikely he'd earn that in the rest of his PGA Tour career or even Champions Tour (not sure how Champions Tour status is impacted by LIV?). Add to that $10 million any prize winnings he gets on LIV. Plays well, in a much weaker field than normal, he could rake in millions.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			A few more purests cry out in joy because he does things different they don't like him.
		
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I’m about as far from a golf purist as you’ll find on here and I think he’s a bell end. I won’t miss him.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Perez is 46 though, so probably worth the gamble for him at this stage in his career. Probably not even a gamble. Been a pro for about 25 years and made just shy of $29 million. Then gets $10 million at the age of 46, and it is probably unlikely he'd earn that in the rest of his PGA Tour career or even Champions Tour (not sure how Champions Tour status is impacted by LIV?). Add to that $10 million any prize winnings he gets on LIV. Plays well, in a much weaker field than normal, he could rake in millions.
		
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To be honest I knew nothing about him or how old he was. For someone in his position it's a no-brainer to take the money. But from my point of view he's the sort of player that is the reason that I've got no interest in watching it. I want to watch the best players compete if I'm going to sit down at home and watch a sport. Watching a tournament where most of the field is made up of players outside the top 100 just doesn't interest me.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			To be honest I knew nothing about him or how old he was. For someone in his position it's a no-brainer to take the money. But from my point of view he's the sort of player that is the reason that I've got no interest in watching it. I want to watch the best players compete if I'm going to sit down at home and watch a sport. Watching a tournament where most of the field is made up of players outside the top 100 just doesn't interest me.
		
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Give it a few months more top players will be over 

Now take the South Africans it's been raised that they normally pack a bag and don't go home for months. Now they can make more money, play 8 events and see their families. Can see why they jumped 

More players will see the benefits of the freedom of choice 

The PGA has to change or they will lose this battle. Maybe giving players their image rights .. they Own every shot on YouTube


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## LincolnShep (Jun 10, 2022)

68k watching YT at the minute.  Not sure who's interested but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Schwartzel took home $1.44m when he won at Augusta, looking at $4.75m if he wins in St Albans tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't imagine Pat Perez is one of the 48 golfers they want involved in the LIV series if it really takes off. He needs to be making his money over the first few events as otherwise he could've torpedoed his PGA career for $10 million and get dropped from the LIV after a few tournaments if some bigger names want in.
		
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Easily solved. Up the field by 6 with two more 3 balls 

If it gets bigger you can have a morning and afternoon event .. 48 players in each then swap them day 2 ..


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## LincolnShep (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Easily solved. Up the field by 6 with two more 3 balls

If it gets bigger you can have a morning and afternoon event .. 48 players in each then swap them day 2 ..
		
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Don't forget the team element.  They have a dozen teams of four.  If they increase the field it would need to be by a multiple of four and they'd need to create new teams.  I wouldn't expect them to do that mid-season.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Don't forget the team element.  They have a dozen teams of four.  If they increase the field it would need to be by a multiple of four and they'd need to create new teams.  I wouldn't expect them to do that mid-season.
		
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Sorry , they could  up to 64 and have 4 balls instead of 3.. still over 16 holes ..

Would create a lot more teams but could easily be next year

Go to 60 players and every team could pick one extra player


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Don't forget the team element.  They have a dozen teams of four.  If they increase the field it would need to be by a multiple of four and they'd need to create new teams.  I wouldn't expect them to do that mid-season.
		
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Who could forget the team element, that is the main attraction. Although I was hoping they'd all wear a full team outfit


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson now confirmed.
		
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Thats a big one. If a couple more of the meaningful golfers jump, then hopefully they all do lock stock. But really if more than one or two of the world top 20 left behind, then it would be disastrous. I think Rory can go. We know the change of heart on the Olympiad and the Ryder, so citing everyone is going and he wants to compete with the best, is an easy sell. It might prompt Tiger to call it a day, as likely to only play the majors now anyway.
The crunch question is whether LIV would ditch the garbage 'innovations' if they had the bulk of the players. PGA Tour could continue as the new second division, and the World Tour could retain its place as bringing golf to a course near you with third rate golfers for national opens and the likes.


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who cares, I'm told he isn't very interesting. I'm sure the PGA won't lose much sleep 

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No, I would say that things have taken a very bad turn for the PGA. Existential crisis just got real.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry , they could  up to 64 and have 4 balls instead of 3.. still over 16 holes ..

Would create a lot more teams but could easily be next year

Go to 60 players and every team could pick one extra player
		
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Would 4 balls make it a lot longer? Probably adding about another 65 to 75 shots in each group. Maybe longer than they want. And they'd have even more golf to try and cram in to show the viewers, or just decide to ignore more golfers entirely.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Would 4 balls make it a lot longer? Probably adding about another 65 to 75 shots in each group. Maybe longer than they want. And they'd have even more golf to try and cram in to show the viewers, or just decide to ignore more golfers entirely.
		
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I think they will just have reserve players tbh


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The PGA has to change or they will lose this battle.
		
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They have nothing to change. It just a whose has the biggest money gun shootout. And we know its the Saudis.
PGA tried the 'obscene money' and immorality of taking Saudi money (which is just American money paid for oil anyway) lines, but the hypocrisy of both arguments was shot through.
So its about money pure and simple, and they havent the fire power.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, I would say that things have taken a very bad turn for the PGA. Existential crisis just got real.
		
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When Fowler comes let's see if spieth and then JT follow (I know JT said he won't) but they are like all really close friends


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Would 4 balls make it a lot longer? Probably adding about another 65 to 75 shots in each group. Maybe longer than they want. And they'd have even more golf to try and cram in to show the viewers, or just decide to ignore more golfers entirely.
		
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I read on the BBC Sport website that it took 4 hours 45 minutes for them to get round as three balls yesterday. I can only imagine that if you made it four balls you'd quite easily be pushing six hours to get round.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They have nothing to change. It just a whose has the biggest money gun shootout. And we know its the Saudis.
PGA tried the 'obscene money' and immorality of taking Saudi money (which is just American money paid for oil anyway) lines, but the hypocrisy of both arguments was shot through.
So its about money pure and simple, and they havent the fire power.
		
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Money is one of the reasons but think it isn't just that for the players. Yes more money is great but on Liv they have more freedom of choice (opposed to a tour that bans) the image right issue with the PGA.. caddies are looked after 

That's all in the PGAs hands to change 

The event format is good why couldn't the PGA do this? Why does every single event have to be 72 holes .. could have a few different

Super League in football got uefa to take note 

PGA laughed it off arrogantly


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I read on the BBC Sport website that it took 4 hours 45 minutes for them to get round as three balls yesterday. I can only imagine that if you made it four balls you'd quite easily be pushing six hours to get round.
		
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Difference is the entire event was 4 hours 45 even with Kevin Na

PGA event time is what? 8 on TV?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Difference is the entire event was 4 hours 45 even with Kevin Na

PGA event time is what? 8 on TV?
		
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It is long. However, for many fans, I don't think golf is a sport they feel they need to watch start to finish. They can dip in and out. If you are about early in day watch some PGA  then, or later in day watch it then. Thursday and Friday high profile players spread throughout field, so usually decent golf to watch. Saturday and Sunday I reckon most just watch it as the leading few groups start to go out.

Whether a shot gun start or not, it takes same length of time for golfers to play a round of golf. So no real difference in viewing time for most people, it is just that a shotgun start will have all the golfers with rubbish scores still out on the course as the leader finishes their round.

So, I think shotgun start offers less viewing flexibility. I've no choice but to be available to watch it in the 4.5 hour window they play today. On PGA Tour, I could watch the early session, late session or somewhere in between.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is long. However, for many fans, I don't think golf is a sport they feel they need to watch start to finish. They can dip in and out. If you are about early in day watch some then, or later in day watch it then. Thursday and Friday high profile players spread throughout field, so usually decent golf to watch. Saturday and Sunday I reckon most just watch it as the leading few groups start to go out.

Whether a shot gun start or not, it takes same length of time for golfers to play a round of golf. So no real difference in viewing time for most people, it is just that a shotgun start will have all the golfers with rubbish scores still out on the course as the leader finishes their round.

So, I think shotgun start offers less viewing flexibility. I've no choice but to be available to watch it in the 4.5 hour window they play today. On PGA Tour, I could watch the early session, late session or somewhere in between.
		
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Have you looked at the LIV Golf YouTube page, there's a rapidly increasing content of videos on there, highlights, behind the scenes, player interviews. I appreciate your point about only having a 4.5 hour window to view, but, there is plenty to go back and watch at a later date, if you wanted to.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 10, 2022)

A couple of friends have gone down to watch for a day. 

Said its a great fan experience and atmosphere with loads of other entertainment as well as the golf to watch. They are staying tonight for the music concert. 

I have watched both days and I have to say I like the format. 
Easy to criticise anything new and innovative, they said the Premier League wouldn't work having extra entertainment, a bit of perzass, kick offs in the evening and Monday night football when it 1st started. 

Imagine the LivGolf format with all the best players in the world playing 🤔🤔🤔


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			A couple of friends have gone down to watch for a day.

Said its a great fan experience and atmosphere with loads of other entertainment as well as the golf to watch. They are staying tonight for the music concert.

I have watched both days and I have to say I like the format.
Easy to criticise anything new and innovative, they said the Premier League wouldn't work having extra entertainment, a bit of perzass, kick offs in the evening and Monday night football when it 1st started.

Imagine the LivGolf format with all the best players in the world playing 🤔🤔🤔
		
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Won't be long at this rate 

They said year one was a beta year and they didn't need big names they just needed to test how it went 

They had 15 of top 100 at event 1

Already more joining for event 2

That's huge


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

@Imurg I heard something about getting themsleves in last group 

Sounds like the leaders will start on 1, the next on 2 and so on


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## timd77 (Jun 10, 2022)

Finding it pretty uninspiring so far, don’t know why, maybe because I don’t normally watch tour events start to finish? The faux excitement perhaps? Not sure. Maybe tomorrow will be different. 

And I never thought I’d say this, but I miss Paul McGinley!


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## bradleywedge (Jun 10, 2022)

@pauljames87 Just seen your bag in your signature.

Thought I was looking at mine! 😂😂😂😂😂


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## Oddsocks (Jun 10, 2022)

Caught bits of it poolside and have to say I really enjoyed it, much more than normal coverage despite the lack of depth in the field.  

1) It’s great that you can watch a complete comp in around 5hr and not catch up on highlights before the 6 hour live coverage starts.

2) it keeps it interesting with the live shot leader board update (does remind me a bit of the movie death race)

3) it will highlight slow play with shotgun starts!

One thing I did find funny was the heavy hitters who cost big money are not in the running as expected.

Only downside is I find the team side a little pointless.  As other have said the teams change per event so impossible to follow a team although I thing it does relate to some club comps…. Maybe I am a fan after all.

Right off to get my morals checked out, need to make sure I’m clear ready for tomorrows stream.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

bradleywedge said:



@pauljames87 Just seen your bag in your signature.

Thought I was looking at mine! 😂😂😂😂😂
		
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I'm sure you use them to much more potential


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			A couple of friends have gone down to watch for a day.

Said its a great fan experience and atmosphere with loads of other entertainment as well as the golf to watch. They are staying tonight for the music concert.

I have watched both days and I have to say I like the format.
Easy to criticise anything new and innovative, they said the Premier League wouldn't work having extra entertainment, a bit of perzass, kick offs in the evening and Monday night football when it 1st started.

Imagine the LivGolf format with all the best players in the world playing 🤔🤔🤔
		
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It is interesting how people have differing views who have gone there - two groups I know have gone , one lot were bored stiff , the other had a good time , the second group where with a member and had a few drinks 😁

I can’t recall many saying the Premier League wouldn’t work - it was essential not much different than the previous version just with bigger sponsorship

it’s day two and I suspect it’s going to be very hard to judge it’s success now - BDC is the first interesting addition and he is very much a marmite character on the tour 

As others have said the ET haven’t said much right now and I’m wondering if they are working to join forces with the LiV tour - now that would be a game changer but where would the events be hosted. 

Saw a report comparing the situation to Boxing and the multiple different “belts” and how it’s diluted the sport - I still see the comparison with Kerry Packer but with a lot more money to back it up to keep it going a bit more 

There are some key hurdles ahead - the majors , ranking points and Ryder Cup points 

Will it ever settle down to having 3 tours working together - don’t think that will happen with one tour offering so much money just to play 

The one thing is surely for the money they are paying some players they will need to see the players who are being paid a lot step up and perform- won’t do them any favours if unknowns are winning


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

I find it interesting when big names join up to LIV, and you get so many people slagging them off and dismissing their appeal. DJ is a probable has been, Bryson is uninteresting and a knob, etc. Basically, trying to use any excuse as to why it isn't such a big deal. 

However, I've just looked at the world rankings. Outside of Tiger Woods, if any single US player joined LIV then I can imagine the same old excuses. Scottie Scheffler,  Cantlay, Thomas, etc. I can see the same old arguments. That player is boring, this one is a knob, etc. In this forum anyway, US fans may have different opinions. Realistically, I can only really see 2 players other than Woods who may be universally agreed to be big signings for LIV, McIlroy and Rahm. Probably largely to do with the fact we are European.

So, it seems like some of us are allowing our personal opinion on a player to get in the way of making an objective opinion on how big a signing any given player is for LIV.

Some may hate Bryson, but it is huge for LIV and a massive blow for PGA. Same as DJ. And, despite being at end of their careers, the likes of Phil, Westwood, Poulter, Garcia, Louis, etc were also big for LIV, simply because they are globally well recognised in golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 10, 2022)

DP World Tour, could and should be talking to LIV, and the other tours, and saying, "we're the 2nd biggest tour in the world, and this is our opportunity to be number one"
Amalgamate the top events from across the continents to provide a true world tour, and run alongside the LIV series. Other tours to support with opportunities to qualify for the main tour and LIV series.
Global sponsorsip opportunities for a global product, instead of an American tour, for American backers, and American golf fans.
It's a huge opportunity.


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## JamesR (Jun 10, 2022)

Well I’ve been on the course all afternoon…anyone creamed themselves to death over the latest LIV news?


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson now confirmed.
		
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That's huge, a lot of the new "younger" golfers I play with all aspire to BDC, he's the main man for them.
I was thinking of the biggest golfing moments for me over the last couple of years, Tiger winning the Masters after that I'm struggling but I clearly remember BDC with his drive at the Arnold Palmer


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I find it interesting when big names join up to LIV, and you get so many people slagging them off and dismissing their appeal. DJ is a probable has been, Bryson is uninteresting and a knob, etc. Basically, trying to use any excuse as to why it isn't such a big deal.

However, I've just looked at the world rankings. Outside of Tiger Woods, if any single US player joined LIV then I can imagine the same old excuses. Scottie Scheffler,  Cantlay, Thomas, etc. I can see the same old arguments. That player is boring, this one is a knob, etc. In this forum anyway, US fans may have different opinions. Realistically, I can only really see 2 players other than Woods who may be universally agreed to be big signings for LIV, McIlroy and Rahm. Probably largely to do with the fact we are European.

So, it seems like some of us are allowing our personal opinion on a player to get in the way of making an objective opinion on how big a signing any given player is for LIV.

Some may hate Bryson, but it is huge for LIV and a massive blow for PGA. Same as DJ. And, despite being at end of their careers, the likes of Phil, Westwood, Poulter, Garcia, Louis, etc were also big for LIV, simply because they are globally well recognised in golf.
		
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I think if Rory Rahm JT Spieth Scheffler Hovland Smith or Morikawa jumped ship then it’d be catastrophic they’re the golden children of the pga tour currently

Bryson has the fitness question mark over him also see Brooks if they went after him

2 year ago they’re the main men but there’s big question marks

make no mistake a fit Bryson is a huge pull I’m sure the wrists will heal and he’s a headliner up there only with Rory and Tiger when he’s firing

Also him and Reed appear to be nightmares to deal with if the smear stories are true


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 10, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535046014628864000


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			That's huge, a lot of the new "younger" golfers I play with all aspire to BDC, he's the main man for them.
I was thinking of the biggest golfing moments for me over the last couple of years, Tiger winning the Masters after that I'm struggling but I clearly remember BDC with his drive at the Arnold Palmer 

Click to expand...

This is the thing everyone looks at it from the tried and tested view on golf

Bryson like Liv appeal to different people


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			but on Liv they have more freedom of choice (opposed to a tour that bans)
		
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You do realise that they have to sign up to play all the LIV matches. They can't pick and choose. Not much flexibility really.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534992729654149143


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 10, 2022)

To me it's like 20/20 cricket. It's all a bit meaningless. Three rounds is different but I'm not sure how you can expect ranking points when there's 18 holes less to play. It's apples and oranges.


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## Backsticks (Jun 10, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I think if Rory Rahm JT Spieth Scheffler Hovland Smith or Morikawa jumped ship then it’d be catastrophic they’re the golden children of the pga tour currently
		
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If that group jumped, then the PGA Tour as it is is over. But come become a nice feeder world tour for bigger fields and second and third rankers, looking to graduate to LIV. How is LIV going to handle promotions, relagations ? But an LIV win will have little value as a sporting achievement. The Unified PGA DP US World Tour wins will be harder won.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Imurg I heard something about getting themsleves in last group

Sounds like the leaders will start on 1, the next on 2 and so on
		
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The leaders are grouped from starting on 16-18 and 1-3 to try to get the winner near to home vs out in the country.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To me it's like 20/20 cricket. It's all a bit meaningless. Three rounds is different but I'm not sure how you can expect ranking points when there's 18 holes less to play. It's apples and oranges.
		
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That's why they sync with the ET tour play that for points
T


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## 4LEX (Jun 10, 2022)

Gave it a watch today and really dire stuff. So many of the field over par, lacking quality and just a terrible advert for golf. If the future of golf is a load of has beens hacking it around an average golf course, watched by nobody but those on freebies and 60k on YouTube the game is finished.

Golf isn't a team sport apart from once every two years. Just look at the names of these teams....cringeworthy. A lot of players have tarnished their reputatation forever this week, especially G-Mac, Poulter and Westwood.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Gave it a watch today and really dire stuff. So many of the field over par, lacking quality and just a terrible advert for golf. If the future of golf is a load of has beens hacking it around an average golf course, watched by nobody but those on freebies and 60k on YouTube the game is finished.

Golf isn't a team sport apart from once every two years. Just look at the names of these teams....cringeworthy. A lot of players have tarnished their reputatation forever this week, especially G-Mac, Poulter and Westwood.
		
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But people moan about golf being too early and super low scores? So when the players are being beaten up by the course it's borin?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Gave it a watch today and really dire stuff. So many of the field over par, lacking quality and just a terrible advert for golf. If the future of golf is a load of has beens hacking it around an average golf course, watched by nobody but those on freebies and 60k on YouTube the game is finished.

Golf isn't a team sport apart from once every two years. Just look at the names of these teams....cringeworthy. A lot of players have tarnished their reputatation forever this week, especially G-Mac, Poulter and Westwood.
		
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Regarding team names, it is a bit like when I need to pick a fantasy football team name. I get round to creating a team and it suddenly gives me an option to pick a name. I panic, and with no real thought come up with something garbage, cos I can't be arsed thinking about it. Something like LoadsOfGoals Utd.

Point is, I reckon exactly the same effort went into LIV team names. Probably appointed team captains and then said "by the way, what is your team name". Given that their only thoughts had been about all the money they get and dealing with the fallout with PGA and media, this question was completely unexpected so they just said the first thing that came into their head.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But people moan about golf being too early and super low scores? So when the players are being beaten up by the course it's borin?
		
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I'm not overly convinced they were being beaten up by the course. They just aren't as good. If the worlds top 48 players were all playing, I'm sure we'd have seem lots of good scores. Probably wouldn't even be talking about any of the players over par at this stage, apart from if they were fighting to make the cut.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 10, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			To me it's like 20/20 cricket. It's all a bit meaningless. Three rounds is different but I'm not sure how you can expect ranking points when there's 18 holes less to play. It's apples and oranges.
		
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What happens to ranking points if a competition is shortened due to bad weather?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But people moan about golf being too early and super low scores? So when the players are being beaten up by the course it's borin?
		
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They aren’t being beaten up by the course - it’s not that tough there , the field isn’t a strong top of the tree field 

If it was the current top 40 in the world then 99% would be significantly under par


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not overly convinced they were being beaten up by the course. They just aren't as good. If the worlds top 48 players were all playing, I'm sure we'd have seem lots of good scores. Probably wouldn't even be talking about any of the players over par at this stage, apart from if they were fighting to make the cut.
		
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It was tough out there - a strong wind and they reduced par by 2. The rough was penal so easy to drop shots.


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			What happens to ranking points if a competition is shortened due to bad weather?
		
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it doesn’t matter OWGR have given ranking points for 54 hole events before 

Hero challenge 

The precedent is there


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 10, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Well I’ve been on the course all afternoon…anyone creamed themselves to death over the latest LIV news?
		
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Eh?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not overly convinced they were being beaten up by the course. They just aren't as good. If the worlds top 48 players were all playing, I'm sure we'd have seem lots of good scores. Probably wouldn't even be talking about any of the players over par at this stage, apart from if they were fighting to make the cut.
		
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Aren't some of the big names still over par? It's set up tough.. I mean more rough than the average pga event and tighter


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			It was tough out there - a strong wind and they reduced par by 2. The rough was penal so easy to drop shots.
		
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Not saying it was easy, but still doesn't get rid of the fact the quality of the field was nowhere near what you'd normally expect to see on the PGA.


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## Depreston (Jun 10, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Gave it a watch today and really dire stuff. So many of the field over par, lacking quality and just a terrible advert for golf. If the future of golf is a load of has beens hacking it around an average golf course, watched by nobody but those on freebies and 60k on YouTube the game is finished.

Golf isn't a team sport apart from once every two years. Just look at the names of these teams....cringeworthy. A lot of players have tarnished their reputatation forever this week, especially G-Mac, Poulter and Westwood.
		
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yeah they need to cut the field halfway through to avoid watching the out of form hack it about


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not saying it was easy, but still doesn't get rid of the fact the quality of the field was nowhere near what you'd normally expect to see on the PGA.
		
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Give it few events most of them will be over at this rate


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 10, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Golf isn't a team sport apart from once every two years. Just look at the names of these teams....cringeworthy. A lot of players have tarnished their reputatation forever this week, especially G-Mac, Poulter and Westwood.
		
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Think you are missing the point here - the model is the IPL where companies / wealthy individuals will sponsor / own teams and buy their players in a draft system. These franchises will operate year to year with an individual and team / league element.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Aren't some of the big names still over par? It's set up tough.. I mean more rough than the average pga event and tighter
		
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Yeah, big names. But big names can still play poorly, even World Number 1's. However, it you had a significant amount of the best in the world there, then although some would play bad, you'd expect quite a few to play well. So, for example, you may have Schwartzel mixed in at the top of the leaderboard with Rahm, Thomas, Cantlay, Morikawa, McIlroy etc. Maybe Spieth, Scheffler, Lowry have a bad day or 2. But it doesn't matter as our focus is on the cream rising to the top.

But, as we don't have all those players, more focus is placed on those that we'd normally consider to be under performing in a regular tournament


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, big names. But big names can still play poorly, even World Number 1's. However, it you had a significant amount of the best in the world there, then although some would play bad, you'd expect quite a few to play well. So, for example, you may have Schwartzel mixed in at the top of the leaderboard with Rahm, Thomas, Cantlay, Morikawa, McIlroy etc. Maybe Spieth, Scheffler, Lowry have a bad day or 2. But it doesn't matter as our focus is on the cream rising to the top.

But, as we don't have all those players, more focus is placed on those that we'd normally consider to be under performing in a regular tournament
		
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The rate players are coming it won't be long 

6 months ago Rory declared it was "dead in the water"

2 months ago people thought they might get 1 or 2 old players 

Couple weeks before people thought nobodies going 

First event 15 of top 100 show up.. including DJ 

Then Phil arrives 

Bryson jumps. Reed to follow (boo) more PGA pros have jumped .. Fowler on the verge 

Stenson been mentioned (imagine the current captain coming over)

This is only going one way and it's not the way the PGA hoped


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## garyinderry (Jun 10, 2022)

I've watched bits over the first two rounds and it's not really my cuppa tea. 
I dislike the shot gun start element. You don't really get a feel for a players round. The whole thing jumps about. The shots come thick and fast and its like watching a highlights reel. It's one look at the shot and that's it. Very little build up to shots unless its phil or dustin. 
The fact it's all over in 5 hours doesnt appeal either. I like the way the PGA tour sets up. Usually big names on the fri night coverage to see if they make the cut. The slower pace of coverage allow me to browse my phone or chat on WhatsApp while watching. The liv golf has a section called dont blink. Do and you will miss it. Haha
I'll miss the final round tomorrow as I'll be golfing. Will watch the highlights but overall I'm annoyed its going to interrupt the cream of golf competing on a single tour. Things may have to change in the future.  The PGA may eventually have to back down somewhat. 
It's all up in the air atm. Lots of unknowns. 8 tournaments this year. How many next etc? 
Guys cant be sharp playing such little golf. This story will run and run. 
I do feel it's a shame for the traditions and history of the game. 72 holes is a true test of your game. I'm sure some of the old greats are turning in their graves.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The rate players are coming it won't be long 

6 months ago Rory declared it was "dead in the water"

2 months ago people thought they might get 1 or 2 old players 

Couple weeks before people thought nobodies going 

First event 15 of top 100 show up.. including DJ 

Then Phil arrives 

Bryson jumps. Reed to follow (boo) more PGA pros have jumped .. Fowler on the verge 

Stenson been mentioned (imagine the current captain coming over)

This is only going one way and it's not the way the PGA hoped
		
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I agree, it certainly looks like more and more big players will be attracted across. Simply referring to the spectacle of this first event.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree, it certainly looks like more and more big players will be attracted across. Simply referring to the spectacle of this first event.
		
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Think it's surprising a lot of people in that it's not as bad as people thought or hoped in some cases


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The rate players are coming it won't be long

6 months ago Rory declared it was "dead in the water"

2 months ago people thought they might get 1 or 2 old players

Couple weeks before people thought nobodies going

First event 15 of top 100 show up.. including DJ

Then Phil arrives

Bryson jumps. Reed to follow (boo) more PGA pros have jumped .. Fowler on the verge

Stenson been mentioned (imagine the current captain coming over)

This is only going one way and it's not the way the PGA hoped
		
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All getting a bit carried away ?

15 of the worlds top 100 is not exactly shouting about it

Maybe it’s non of the top 10 , 1 of the top 20

looking at the players who have joined which are the players that would be considered one of the current top players - DJ and before his wrist injury BDC

Even the ones muted are still not part of the current cream of the game

Right now there is no real wow player that no one expected - all the players that moved have been rumoured over the past 12 months


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All getting a bit carried away ?

15 of the worlds top 100 is not exactly shouting about it

Maybe it’s non of the top 10 , 1 of the top 20

looking at the players who have joined which are the players that would be considered one of the current top players - DJ and before his wrist injury BDC

Even the ones muted are still not part of the current cream of the game
		
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Players fall down the ranking because of not playing for one. Bryson pre injury was top 10 player and DJ former number 1 ..

How many majors winners on Liv?

Point is people didn't think they would get any.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Think it's surprising a lot of people in that it's not as bad as people thought or hoped in some cases
		
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There are definitely more big names in the first one than I thought. A few months ago it seemed Phil was the only one who would do it, while every other big name pro let him fall on his sword. 

Then, suddenly you get big names signing up to it shortly before it starts.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			There are definitely more big names in the first one than I thought. A few months ago it seemed Phil was the only one who would do it, while every other big name pro let him fall on his sword.

Then, suddenly you get big names signing up to it shortly before it starts.
		
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I'd wager that when next year's events start there are many many more names from the world's top 100 in 

Let's see who stays loyal


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Players fall down the ranking because of not playing for one. Bryson pre injury was top 10 player and DJ former number 1 ..

How many majors winners on Liv?

Point is people didn't think they would get any.
		
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The players were rumoured for months - even looking at major winners you have players like Kaymer , McDowell , and Schwartzel who now struggle to get into any major 

There is not one player so far where you would look at think that’s someone who is part of the current crop of top players who are battling at the top of the game - DJ is the closet , the rest are all players whose career is on the downturn or at the later stages 

If the add in one of those Top 10 players whose trajectory is upwards like a Hovland , Smith, Schuaffle etc then people will take big notice.


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## Redtraveller (Jun 10, 2022)

not read every one of the 82 pages but this was an opportunity for US and European Tours to do something to stop the Liv tour but no joined up action from them, no statements and players still seem to be playing in their majors. Players will keep slipping away if they don’t do something. I prefer the 72 holes though. Nothing better than watching the leaders late on a Sunday afternoon. Watching it is like one of those ‘celeb’ events. The commentators (whoever they are) are over hyping it too. It’s quite obvious.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The players were rumoured for months - even looking at major winners you have players like Kaymer , McDowell , and Schwartzel who now struggle to get into any major

There is not one player so far where you would look at think that’s someone who is part of the current crop of top players who are battling at the top of the game - DJ is the closet , the rest are all players whose career is on the downturn or at the later stages

If the add in one of those Top 10 players whose trajectory is upwards like a Hovland , Smith, Schuaffle etc then people will take big notice.
		
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The PGA tour needs to address the situation and change.

It could easily avoid this mess.

Adopt the format for say 4 events a year to get people interested.

Give players their image rights for YouTube etc 

And pay the caddies expenses 

Adopt those changes and this would be a better and postive tour rather than a greedy tour that just responds by banning players making them look desperate and scared of an apparent lesser product


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The players were rumoured for months - even looking at major winners you have players like Kaymer , McDowell , and Schwartzel who now struggle to get into any major 

There is not one player so far where you would look at think that’s someone who is part of the current crop of top players who are battling at the top of the game - DJ is the closet , the rest are all players whose career is on the downturn or at the later stages 

If the add in one of those Top 10 players whose trajectory is upwards like a Hovland , Smith, Schuaffle etc then people will take big notice.
		
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I suspect people are already taking big notice. I mean, it put golf in the main news headlines


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I suspect people are already taking big notice. I mean, it put golf in the main news headlines
		
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The PGA has a lot of decisions to make 

Stand by their petty bans and face ruin 

Or find a way to co excist 

If the DP world tour align with Liv they will become the stronger tour as many will jump to keep their cards and play less events more money and get ranking points


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The PGA tour needs to address the situation and change.

It could easily avoid this mess.

Adopt the format for say 4 events a year to get people interested.

Give players their image rights for YouTube etc

And pay the caddies expenses

Adopt those changes and this would be a better and postive tour rather than a greedy tour that just responds by banning players making them look desperate and scared of an apparent lesser product
		
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🤷‍♂️ I’m not sure what that has to do with what I posted ?

And I’m sure the PGA Tour will be fine 

I’m not sure using greed is an appropriate message when the players on the PGA already earn significant amounts of money and the ones who have moved are doing so for guarentee significant amounts more money 

Why should the tour pay the expenses of the caddies ? 

And why adopt the format ? Just because you like it doesn’t mean it’s what makes needed


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ I’m not sure what that has to do with what I posted ?

And I’m sure the PGA Tour will be fine

I’m not sure using greed is an appropriate message when the players on the PGA already earn significant amounts of money and the ones who have moved are doing so for guarentee significant amounts more money

Why should the tour pay the expenses of the caddies ?

And why adopt the format ? Just because you like it doesn’t mean it’s what makes needed
		
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It's a popular format out of the normal golf viewers and with some current ones 

Fans have been crying out for diff formats to be put on along side the norm 

There is place for both the PGA and the Liv . However only the PGA is the one making sure they are only ways left.

By doing so they will end up losing talent and weakening their product 

Masters top 25 

Schwartzel 
DJ
Westwood 
Garcia 

PGA top 25 

Fowler 
Na 

These players are still very competitive on tour

Taking them away weakens the PGA


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## PieMan (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a popular format out of the normal golf viewers and with some current ones 

Fans have been crying out for diff formats to be put on along side the norm 

There is place for both the PGA and the Liv . However only the PGA is the one making sure they are only ways left.

By doing so they will end up losing talent and weakening their product 

Masters top 25 

Schwartzel 
DJ
Westwood 
Garcia 

PGA top 25 

Fowler 
Na 

These players are still very competitive on tour

Taking them away weakens the PGA
		
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None of those players have been competitive on the PGA Tour recently from memory!

Fowler can barely make a cut. Westwood has come back to the DP World Tour.

Na can barely make it round 18 holes in daylight.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a popular format out of the normal golf viewers and with some current ones

Fans have been crying out for diff formats to be put on along side the norm

There is place for both the PGA and the Liv . However only the PGA is the one making sure they are only ways left.

By doing so they will end up losing talent and weakening their product

Masters top 25

Schwartzel
DJ
Westwood
Garcia

PGA top 25

Fowler
Na

These players are still very competitive on tour

Taking them away weakens the PGA
		
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Still very competitive 🤷‍♂️

Schwartzel outside the World Top 100 , hasn’t won on Tour for over 6 years 

Fowler just inside the top 150 - 1/2 top ten in 2/3 years 

Westwood top 70 1/2 top ten in the last 2 years , a good number of missed cuts 

You can go through them all - even DJ hasn’t won on tour since the Saudi event 18 months ago 

Each players World ranking is on a downward

Right now the PGA has all the current players on form and no sign of them moving


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

In discussing the future strength of the PGA, maybe the more critical question is the future of LIV. 

Like it or not, I can't see it disappearing anytime soon. Too much money has been thrown at it for them to back down now. They are likely to make a huge effort for at least several years, throwing money at it and not worrying about making big losses.

In that time, more big name PGA players are bound to sign up. Maybe some lesser known players on LIV will suprise us and show some great quality. 

In that time, the PGA may well ban any player that plays LIV. Their decision. But all it does is severely weaken their brand.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			None of those players have been competitive on the PGA Tour recently from memory!

Fowler can barely make a cut. Westwood has come back to the DP World Tour.

Na can barely make it round 18 holes in daylight.
		
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Last season and then this season's big events thus far

DJ top 10 at the players

Louis top 5 at the open

DJ top 10 at open

Louis second us open

Reed top 10 masters

Phil won PGA

Louis 2nd PGA

Fowler 9th PGA

Westwood 2nd players

Bryson 3rd players

Garcia 9th players

These players are hardly not competing


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still very competitive 🤷‍♂️

Schwartzel outside the World Top 100 , hasn’t won on Tour for over 6 years

Fowler just inside the top 150 - 1/2 top ten in 2/3 years

Westwood top 70 1/2 top ten in the last 2 years , a good number of missed cuts

You can go through them all - even DJ hasn’t won on tour since the Saudi event 18 months ago

Each players World ranking is on a downward

Right now the PGA has all the current players on form and no sign of them moving
		
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Form is fickle and temporary


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## PieMan (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Last season 

DJ top 10 at the players 

Louis top 5 at the open 

DJ top 10 at open

Louis second us open 

Reed top 10 masters 

Phil won PGA

Louis 2nd PGA 

Fowler 9th PGA 

Westwood 2nd players 

Bryson 3rd players 

Garcia 9th players 

These players are hardly not competing
		
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What did they do for the rest of the season? Loads of wins they racked up between them! What are their world rankings?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			What did they do for the rest of the season? Loads of wins they racked up between them! What are their world rankings?
		
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Top 100 for a lot of them. So DJ was what top 15 only 14 players in the world better than him 

But hey why let these things get in the way of a good bash of something different because people don't like change or something new


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## PieMan (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Top 100 for a lot of them. So DJ was what top 15 only 14 players in the world better than him 

But hey why let these things get in the way of a good bash of something different because people don't like change or something new
		
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I don't mind different or something new. What I don't like is something being hyped as attracting top quality players when clearly it isn't.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Top 100 for a lot of them. So DJ was what top 15 only 14 players in the world better than him 

But hey why let these things get in the way of a good bash of something different because people don't like change or something new
		
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Was DJ not 1st or 2nd best player in world for a streak of 18 months to 2 years, which ended at end of summer last year. Think he was still in top 10, maybe 5th, in February this year?

I appreciate he has had a period of worse form, but it really wasn't that long ago he was unbelievable. And at 37, could easily find that form again. Not sure if people have short memories? Like a player could be king of the world for best part of 2 years, have 6 or so months of bad form and suddenly be a nobody?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			I don't mind different or something new. What I don't like is something being hyped as attracting top quality players when clearly it isn't.
		
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15 of the top 100 before Phil arrived so 16 out of 48 players in top 100

Bryson in that's 17
Reed coming that's 18 

If say 25 tee up next time is it then worth noticing?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Was DJ not 1st or 2nd best player in world for a streak of 18 months to 2 years, which ended at end of summer last year. Think he was still in top 10, maybe 5th, in February this year?

I appreciate he has had a period of worse form, but it really wasn't that long ago he was unbelievable. And at 37, could easily find that form again. Not sure if people have short memories? Like a player could be king of the world for best part of 2 years, have 6 or so months of bad form and suddenly be a nobody?
		
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Golf is full of short memories 

Unless your a Rory fan then he is unbelievable even when he hasn't won a major in 8 years etc 

Another point missed out is Americans love seeing Americans win events. A lot of players leaving are Americans I can see the likes of Rory and Fitzpatrick benefiting from it for one.. won't be as popular that side of pond


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## PieMan (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			15 of the top 100 before Phil arrived so 16 out of 48 players in top 100

Bryson in that's 17
Reed coming that's 18 

If say 25 tee up next time is it then worth noticing?
		
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Not until they sign up 1 or 2 of the top 10. Until then there signing top 100 players who aren't seriously contending most times they tee it up.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Not until they sign up 1 or 2 of the top 10. Until then there signing top 100 players who aren't seriously contending most times they tee it up.
		
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Problem is soon as they sign anyone they will drop out of the top 10 because of suspension 

DJ is a top 10 player as is Bryson


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## PieMan (Jun 10, 2022)

DJ was a top player and could be again, but hardly likely playing what, 9 events a year against mainly poor opposition.

Bryson who knows whether he will return fully fit from injury. Probably depends on how much heavy lifting he does in the gym..........or how much other medical assistance he gets.


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## 4LEX (Jun 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a popular format out of the normal golf viewers and with some current ones

Fans have been crying out for diff formats to be put on along side the norm

There is place for both the PGA and the Liv . However only the PGA is the one making sure they are only ways left.

By doing so they will end up losing talent and weakening their product

Masters top 25

Schwartzel
DJ
Westwood
Garcia

PGA top 25

Fowler
Na

These players are still very competitive on tour

*Taking them away weakens the PGA*

Click to expand...

It really doesn't. Theres talent coming through that are so much better than most of the players you listed, bar DJ. Who is a bit of a weird one in the sense he won't be hanging around in golf for long. He got his majors, peaked and has been on a downward trend for a while. The last Ryder Cup highlited the fact the old guard with big reps are finished.

Nothing against you personally Paul but you must be on the paroll of LIV


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## pauljames87 (Jun 10, 2022)

4LEX said:



			It really doesn't. Theres talent coming through that are so much better than most of the players you listed, bar DJ. Who is a bit of a weird one in the sense he won't be hanging around in golf for long. He got his majors, peaked and has been on a downward trend for a while. The last Ryder Cup highlited the fact the old guard with big reps are finished.

Nothing against you personally Paul but you must be on the paroll of LIV 

Click to expand...

I like innovation, new things and can't stand when organisations won't adapt just because they have what they want.

New talent coming through yes but how about the current us amateur champ? He's in there .. that's a massive coup .. up and coming

Also Bryson is one of the most interesting things to happen to golf in years to add a bit of abnormal.. that drive at bay hill was one of the best moments on tour last year.


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## garyinderry (Jun 10, 2022)

As a golf fan the new format does nothing for me. 

Less time playing. 5 hours
3 days instead of 4. 
No sunday golf. 

The team element is completely pointless. Means nothing to me in the slightest.  Money for old rope for the players. 

The players not having image rights. Couldn't care less. 
The caddies not getting their digs paid for. Not really my problem. Do think it's a good idea on the whole. The tour isnt short a few bob. 

The 54 hole thing is only a positive for the players. They get to bugger off home a day early. That and the obscene money is the big draw for the players. Does nothing for the viewer. 

The top players need to congregate on some tour. If it ends up a 54 hole sprint tour I will be gutted. RIP golf as we knew and loved.


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2022)

Just watched the highlights of day 2.

Entertaining but two points grated:
Again far too much of Phil shown.
But most annoying of all is that stupid ball rattle when putts dropped, it has to be dubbed and it really gets on my nerves. If they don't sort that soon, I'm OUT.


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## Slab (Jun 11, 2022)

I wonder if the player standing within world ranking might not be a bit of a red herring in the context of who's playing on which tour. Its the best we have so its really all we've got to go on but I think most will agree its not perfect... and maybe even flawed

'World' Points are weighted (dare I say biased) towards the pgat based on field strength/event status etc which is itself derived from that same unequal weighting. Shot for shot there are plenty of excellent players around the world who could easily compete on on the pgat on any given week... but they're not even in the field

The pgat is in itself weighted/biased in its qualification to join towards admitting US players (how else to explain the ratio of US players V's rest of the world, lots of whom will never be household names even in america)

The best players are on the pgat but there's lots making up the numbers who couldn't compete any better if playing on the ET or in Asia and all they need do is to play well once or twice a year and suddenly they're collecting more OWGR points than better players will in a whole season


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## Slab (Jun 11, 2022)

Despite the limited number of LIV events each year being viewed as a negative (grab the money & work less) its actually a pretty close number of events to what the top pgat players currently play in pgat run events last year
The like of Rory, Rahm & DJ etc only played a dozen pgat run events last year. The rest of their season was made up of Majors, WGC & ET 
So unless all these other organizing bodies follow the pgat tour in banning LIV players (very doubtful) then the LIV events will only be a part of their season, much like the pgat is now, so the strength of field and integrity of the other main events wont be impacted by LIV 

We may even see a change in how players can qualify for a Major/WGC so that winning a run of the mill pgat against a medium field doesn't open doors unequal to wins in Asia/Europe


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## Slab (Jun 11, 2022)

Dustin Johnson has applied for ET/DPWT membership


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2022)

Just an observation....

99% of the chat I've seen on here and on other socials is all about the money, the field, the format.....but barely anything about the golf itself.
I haven't watched any of it but I've been active on here and twitter...but I have no idea who is winning or what any of the scores are...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not that interested...but I'm surprised I've seen no mentions of who is atop the leaderboard.


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## IainP (Jun 11, 2022)

Maybe because the leaderboard positions are facts,  whereas people generally prefer to offer their opinions 🤔


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## evemccc (Jun 11, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Just an observation....

99% of the chat I've seen on here and on other socials is all about the money, the field, the format.....but barely anything about the golf itself.
I haven't watched any of it but I've been active on here and twitter...but I have no idea who is winning or what any of the scores are...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not that interested...but I'm surprised I've seen no mentions of who is atop the leaderboard.
		
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Maybe so, but that’s because IMO 1) most golf tournaments (outside of the Majors) are not that interesting and many people don’t engage….2) Who is coming to LIV and the politics of it all is constantly developing - and is pretty interesting 3) There’s equally no discussion on the PGA Tour event that’s going on right now (related to point 1)


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Maybe so, but that’s because IMO 1) most golf tournaments (outside of the Majors) are not that interesting and many people don’t engage….2) Who is coming to LIV and the politics of it all is constantly developing - and is pretty interesting 3) There’s equally no discussion on the PGA Tour event that’s going on right now (related to point 1)
		
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I haven't watched any of the RBC either but I know Rory and Fitz are T2 and Rory and JT needed a ruling as Rorys drive hit JT's ball and moved it...seen it on the socials.
From what I can see...LIV "GOLF" isn't important, it's a sideshow to the main event...Money.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

I don’t get the obsession with having players contending for wins on the PGA tour joining the Liv series at this stage. What the series needed in its early days was big names to help draw the crowds, and that’s exactly what they’ve got.

DJ is committed to a four year deal - I suspect a few others are doing the same sort of long term agreement. By then, the series will have either drawn in or found some of the best players in the world anyway.


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## upsidedown (Jun 11, 2022)

Crow said:



			Just watched the highlights of day 2.

Entertaining but two points grated:
Again far too much of Phil shown.
But most annoying of all is that stupid ball rattle when putts dropped, it has to be dubbed and it really gets on my nerves. If they don't sort that soon, I'm OUT.
		
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One of their greenkeepers tweeted that there are microphones in the cups and had a picture of them , I thought it was dubbed too.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			One of their greenkeepers tweeted that there are microphones in the cups and had a picture of them , I thought it was dubbed too.
		
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Dont they do that on the tour anyways?


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## upsidedown (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Dont they do that on the tour anyways?
		
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Thinking about it, makes sense, like the stump microphones


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## garyinderry (Jun 11, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			Thinking about it, makes sense, like the stump microphones
		
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First seen it at the us open at chambers bay.


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			One of their greenkeepers tweeted that there are microphones in the cups and had a picture of them , I thought it was dubbed too.
		
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They used to do a dubbed noise on early films so I suppose this is the next step, but they could have gone the whole hog and put a mini camera in there too!

Either way, it's still very annoying and unless they ditch it, I'm OUT.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			. What the series needed in its early days was big names to help draw the crowds, and that’s exactly what they’ve got.
		
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I think is is clear that it is exactly what they have NOT got. Giving away tickets, almost rentacrowd, and still only a fraction of an average PGA Tour crowd. There is no way you can spin that as a success. It is clear failure.

Your post strikes me as Trump style fake news or politian speak, where the statement has no relation to the facts. What is your interest in LIV ? Have you a personal stake in its succeeding ?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think is is clear that it is exactly what they have NOT got. Giving away tickets, almost rentacrowd, and still only a fraction of an average PGA Tour crowd. There is no way you can spin that as a success. It is clear failure.

Your post strikes me as Trump style fake news or politian speak, where the statement has no relation to the facts. What is your interest in LIV ? Have you a personal stake in its succeeding ?
		
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To be fair the free tickets is what they should have done from day 1

It's a money lose anyways this tour at the moment. Massive fees to get stars over 

Why not free tickets for the fans or £20 or something (but someone did mention unless that's what the course wanted, but surely they could cover that cost)

Then it would be look we trying something new come down see what you think


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			What happens to ranking points if a competition is shortened due to bad weather?
		
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True, but that's not planned in advance. Should 3 rounds be worth less ranking points than 4?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think is is clear that it is exactly what they have NOT got. Giving away tickets, almost rentacrowd, and still only a fraction of an average PGA Tour crowd. There is no way you can spin that as a success. It is clear failure.

Your post strikes me as Trump style fake news or politian speak, where the statement has no relation to the facts. What is your interest in LIV ? Have you a personal stake in its succeeding ?
		
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I don't know how much you spread yourself across Social Media, but trust me, it's been hugely popular. It will take time to build the crowdbase, but I suspect at the next event in the US, the crowd will be much more involved, especially given the addition of a couple more players.

Saying Phil and DJ are not big names is absolute rubbish,Phil is one of THE biggest names in golf, he's a journalists dream, there is ALWAYS a story to write about him.

I know you have a different opinion, but I also know a LOT of people would agree with mine.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But people moan about golf being too early and super low scores? So when the players are being beaten up by the course it's borin?
		
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I'm not sure if I'd marketed it as fast, fun, exciting golf I'd want 37 of the field over par and hacking it out of thick rough.


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## evemccc (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think is is clear that it is exactly what they have NOT got. Giving away tickets, almost rentacrowd, and still only a fraction of an average PGA Tour crowd. There is no way you can spin that as a success. It is clear failure.

Your post strikes me as Trump style fake news or politian speak, where the statement has no relation to the facts. What is your interest in LIV ? Have you a personal stake in its succeeding ?
		
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Completely disagree

The established US golf media and the newer media like NLU have literally said in the last few days that LIV is here to stay, and it’s not going away…they have literally said they underestimated the reality of the threat to the PGA Tour

Likewise NLU have generally praised the actual broadcasting of it - lack of adverts, no. of shots shown esp compared to the pathetic ad-heavy coverage of the PGA Tour etc etc

If I were LIV golf I would have done many, many things differently, including free tickets, with the ‘team’ concept compromised of mixed teams of men and women etc etc. And I don’t doubt that being at Centurion isn’t the exciting spectacle it’s PR claimed….but that blatantly wasn’t its key aims

LIV golf is has indisputably done well in it’s own aims so far, of being a disruptor and trying to usurp the PGA Tour


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## AliMc (Jun 11, 2022)

Average YouTube viewing figures from Apex Marketing 
Day 1 = 94k
Day 2 = 54k


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

It has done nothing well from a golf, competitive sport, or entertainment aspect. It has a single unbeatable strength - money. Which means it can buy some (and it is very meagre at the moment) top players, and the show is staged. But that is not a success in the wider sense. It is fake purchase of some of the superficial elements of success.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't know how much you spread yourself across Social Media, but trust me, it's been hugely popular. It will take time to build the crowdbase, but I suspect at the next event in the US, the crowd will be much more involved, especially given the addition of a couple more players.

Saying Phil and DJ are not big names is absolute horseshit, Phil is one of THE biggest names in golf, he's a journalists dream, there is ALWAYS a story to write about him.

I know you have a different opinion, but I also know a LOT of people would agree with mine.
		
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It may have been on the SM that you’ve looked at, but there is just as much negativity.

Phil and DJ are massive names and a real catch for LIV. The rest other than Bryson are a bit meah. 

It will be interesting to see who else jumps, but at the minute all the real superstars are are still on the PGA.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Completely disagree

The established US golf media and the newer media like NLU have literally said in the last few days that LIV is here to stay, and it’s not going away…they have literally said they underestimated the reality of the threat to the PGA Tour

Likewise NLU have generally praised the actual broadcasting of it - lack of adverts, no. of shots shown esp compared to the pathetic ad-heavy coverage of the PGA Tour etc etc

If I were LIV golf I would have done many, many things differently, including free tickets, with the ‘team’ concept compromised of mixed teams of men and women etc etc. And I don’t doubt that being at Centurion isn’t the exciting spectacle it’s PR claimed….but that blatantly wasn’t its key aims

LIV golf is has indisputably done well in it’s own aims so far, of being a disruptor and trying to usurp the PGA Tour
		
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Rome wasnt built in a day, its been a lot better than most guessed it would be. It has more players that I have heard of than I thought it would at this stage

they said that year one didnt matter its just a beta test really its next year they need to be good

if they continue to build on what they have done so far I cant see it disappearing


AliMc said:



			Average YouTube viewing figures from Apex Marketing
Day 1 = 94k
Day 2 = 54k
		
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Would be interested to know the difference in crowd numbers between the 2 days because people more likely to get out of work on a friday than a thursday


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

AliMc said:



			Average YouTube viewing figures from Apex Marketing
Day 1 = 94k
Day 2 = 54k
		
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Which is pathetic. So even for free, effectively nobody watched. There will have been more tuned into a monkey on a skateboard or something.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Which is pathetic. So even for free, effectively nobody watched. There will have been more tuned into a monkey on a skateboard or something.
		
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Didn't realise 50,000 was nobody

Doesn't include foreign TV coverage figures 

Like I said above how many went compared to Thursday?


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## Whydowedoit (Jun 11, 2022)

Why dont they shcedule their tournaments from September through to February? The FedEx Cup has finished, there are still opportunities to host in the US, plus over the world. That would make far more sense.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Whydowedoit said:



			Why dont they shcedule their tournaments from September through to February? The FedEx Cup has finished, there are still opportunities to host in the US, plus over the world. That would make far more sense.
		
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They have 15 events next year I suspect they will fill those gaps


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't know how much you spread yourself across Social Media, but trust me, it's been hugely popular. It will take time to build the crowdbase, but I suspect at the next event in the US, the crowd will be much more involved, especially given the addition of a couple more players.

Saying Phil and DJ are not big names is absolute horseshit, Phil is one of THE biggest names in golf, he's a journalists dream, there is ALWAYS a story to write about him.

I know you have a different opinion, but I also know a LOT of people would agree with mine.
		
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And on he question of your interest or disinterest in LIV ?


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## AussieKB (Jun 11, 2022)

From an Australian point of view I hope they schedule an Event here, only way for us to see top golf, the PGA could not care less about anyone but themselves, it can also be an opportunity for other Countries to get to see Events.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And on he question of your interest or disinterest in LIV ?
		
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All views are my own


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Which is pathetic. So even for free, effectively nobody watched. There will have been more tuned into a monkey on a skateboard or something.
		
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Day 1 highlights have had over half a million views on You Tube.
Is that also pathetic?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			From an Australian point of view I hope they schedule an Event here, only way for us to see top golf, the PGA could not care less about anyone but themselves, it can also be an opportunity for other Countries to get to see Events.
		
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Id hope they do as well, at least for know, the event in Thailand means you can watch via TV at a reasonable time of day.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Day 1 highlights have had over half a million views on You Tube.
Is that also pathetic?
		
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So many are desperate for this to fail.

Good viewing numbers 

Better pros than expected

It's funny how as soon as a player leaves their suddenly in decline, never that good anyways or just awful 

I wonder if Rory went they would all turn and say oh he never wins majors anymore anyways


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2022)

On the bus about to head to the course! Fingers crossed for a good day of golf at LIV Centurion!


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## Jimaroid (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't know how much you spread yourself across Social Media, but trust me, it's been hugely popular.
		
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I think you're unable to see that you're in an echo chamber of a vocal minority. A momentary disruptive event like this will always make a splash and generate an initial peak of interest but it's the long tail retention and engagement of the silent majority that actually matters. 

I disagree that the numbers are healthy. They are also almost impossible to interpret at this point in time because what will really matter is retention for growth over time.


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## AussieKB (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Id hope they do as well, at least for know, the event in Thailand means you can watch via TV at a reasonable time of day.
		
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Group of us (20-30) go every year to Thailand (Hua Hin) to play golf for two weeks except for the last 2 years (Covid) it is a fantastic country to visit, also cost wise, very cheap, so maybe I will be there when they have their event.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			On the bus about to head to the course! Fingers crossed for a good day of golf at LIV Centurion!
		
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Check your morals on the way out ofc

Be interested to hear what it's like


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## AussieKB (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I think you're unable to see that you're in an echo chamber of a vocal minority. A momentary disruptive event like this will always make a splash and generate an initial peak of interest but it's the long tail retention and engagement of the silent majority that actually matters.

I disagree that the numbers are healthy. They are also almost impossible to interpret at this point in time because what will really matter is retention for growth over time.
		
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And if no one challenges the PGA what will change ? will you see more golf outside of USA ? I think not, they take all the great golfers from other countries and give nothing back.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			And if no one challenges the PGA what will change ? will you see more golf outside of USA ? I think not, they take all the great golfers from other countries and give nothing back.
		
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Growing the game just means growing the PGA in relation to everything else 

Let's see what the dp world tour do in relation to djs application

They could suddenly find themselves on a level playing field with the PGA if more jump ship and join their tour to keep rankins


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## Jimaroid (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Day 1 highlights have had over half a million views on You Tube.
Is that also pathetic?
		
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For those that don't know this only means half a million people watched for at least 30 seconds.

A randomly picked comparison: a single Women's NBA basketball game in 2021 got 700K views on YouTube.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I think you're unable to see that you're in an echo chamber of a vocal minority. A momentary disruptive event like this will always make a splash and generate an initial peak of interest but it's the long tail retention and engagement of the silent majority that actually matters.

I disagree that the numbers are healthy. They are also almost impossible to interpret at this point in time because what will really matter is retention for growth over time.
		
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Well, I’d rather be on an echo chamber than have my head in the sand, all day, every day.
£20 to the charity of your choice that the viewing numbers at least double for the next event. Are we on?


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## AussieKB (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			For those that don't know this only means half a million people watched for at least 30 seconds.

A randomly picked comparison: a single Women's NBA basketball game in 2021 got 700K views on YouTube.
		
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What is your problem?


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## Jimaroid (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			And if no one challenges the PGA what will change ? will you see more golf outside of USA ? I think not, they take all the great golfers from other countries and give nothing back.
		
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Irrelevant to my point - I made no opinion on the PGA - I'm only stating the view of what constitutes great success in YouTube's audience.

50K peak concurrency in my profession is an abject failure when you consider that Z-list celebrities can get over 1 million peak concurrency just by unveiling a new Minecraft costume.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			What is your problem?
		
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People in general (not saying this is jimroids problem) want it to fail and will pick holes in it

Once the issue of money is put to one side as every single person agreed Saudi are dodgy and the funding is dodgy the actual event itself is interesting and different

But some people just don't want to see it succeed so will jump on any little negative to bash it


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			For those that don't know this only means half a million people watched for at least 30 seconds.

A randomly picked comparison: a single Women's NBA basketball game in 2021 got 700K views on YouTube.
		
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And for comparison, when McIlroy won the RBC Open in 2019, the highlights of his final winning round have had 775k views, in 3 years.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, I’d rather be on an echo chamber than have my head in the sand, all day, every day.
£20 to the charity of your choice that the viewing numbers at least double for the next event. Are we on?
		
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An echo chamber is nearly always wrong.

I'll take the bet provided we are measuring the same thing? So what will it be. Views of Round 1 highlights as it's observed on the following Saturday morning?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			An echo chamber is nearly always wrong.

I'll take the bet provided we are measuring the same thing? So what will it be. Views of Round 1 highlights as it's observed on the following Saturday morning?

View attachment 43022

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Total number of views from each days live stream.


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## PieMan (Jun 11, 2022)

Interesting that LIV golf highlights, with their 'big names' and massive reporting and hype across all media platforms, gets over 500k views.

And Rick Shiels' latest offering - "only" a YouTube golfer with literally no MSM coverage gets over 300k views.

Surely LIV should be dwarfing Rick and his contemporaries (Finch etc al)?

Watched both and enjoyed Rick's more.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Total number of views from each days live stream.
		
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Measured when and how for comparison? YouTube algorithm modifies the numbers after the livestream has ended and it's subject to how Liv Golf republish the stream.

For example - my highlight shows they've made some sort of republishing that's lost the livestream numbers for Day 1 so we can't make a fair bet. Hence my suggestion of something a little more specific.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Interesting that LIV golf highlights, with their 'big names' and massive reporting and hype across all media platforms, gets over 500k views.

And Rick Shiels' latest offering - "only" a YouTube golfer with literally no MSM coverage gets over 300k views.

Surely LIV should be dwarfing Rick and his contemporaries (Finch etc al)?

Watched both and enjoyed Rick's more.
		
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Liv golf has 87k followers
Rick has upwards of 2 million 

They should have got him on tour!

Thanks for reminding me to watch break 75


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I think you're unable to see that you're in an echo chamber of a vocal minority. A momentary disruptive event like this will always make a splash and generate an initial peak of interest but it's the long tail retention and engagement of the silent majority that actually matters.

I disagree that the numbers are healthy. They are also almost impossible to interpret at this point in time because what will really matter is retention for growth over time.
		
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I want to see it when it goes to the USA, let's face it, most UK based golf tournaments are a turn over bore fest, stuffy, silent galleries, crap weather, bland courses, and yes I include The Open on this.
Over the pond the crowds are louder, courses look mint and the golf just seems more exciting IMO.


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## fenwayrich (Jun 11, 2022)

Why is there an obsession with the game being LOUDER? I don't want to watch some drunken lout bellowing 'mashed potato', or a massive group of 'look at me' inebriates chucking beer onto the greens. My interest is in watching the participants, i.e the golfers, displaying their skills in a meaningful contest on a course that provides a thorough test of their ability.  

I appreciate that I am knocking on heaven's door, and therefore old fashioned. But if there is to be innovation, it should not revolve around allowing spectators freedom to become the centre of attention.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			And if no one challenges the PGA what will change ? will you see more golf outside of USA ? I think not, they take all the great golfers from other countries and give nothing back.
		
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I think this is a fair point and the PGA has invited this upon themselves with how US centric the preeminent tour is. I've always been in favour of the PGA major being permanently overseas as a bare minimum
Unfortunately I don't really see the Saudis motives as anything other than self serving (sportwashing) as well and I can't dissociate what they do as a country on human rights.


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## Anoetic (Jun 11, 2022)

It’s good to see a different format.  It didn’t harm cricket with the 20/20 format and there was a lot of scepticism when that started.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Check your morals on the way out ofc

Be interested to hear what it's like
		
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So far it’s awesome 😂 loads of people here


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			So far it’s awesome 😂 loads of people here
		
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Hope you have a good day 👍

I've been to two british masters and the open last year really enjoyed them

Think I'd enjoy being there today but helping out the coverage for the cause.... Keeps the wife happy. I'll make do with YouTube 

The entertain looks insane


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2022)

Methinks all these naysayers doth protest too much.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Interesting, just seen something on Twitter about how corrupt the PGA Tour and DP wOrld Tour are becoming,.

Monahan took a salary of 3.9 million dollars in 2017, which would have put him firmly into the top 20 of the money list on the tour. 
6500 for an entry into the Korn Ferry Q School. Approx 5 grand in total for anybody wanting to get into the EuropeanTour. Seniors Tour now a closed shop apparently. 

It isn't just the guys that have gone to the LIV that are in it for the money.


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## rulefan (Jun 11, 2022)

Anoetic said:



			It’s good to see a different format.  It didn’t harm cricket with the 20/20 format and there was a lot of scepticism when that started.
		
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Hasn't that ruined the England Test team's performance. I'm not a cricket fan but it seems batters (except Root) can no longer stay in and get decent scores.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting, just seen something on Twitter about how corrupt the PGA Tour and DP wOrld Tour are becoming,.

Monahan took a salary of 3.9 million dollars in 2017, which would have put him firmly into the top 20 of the money list on the tour.
6500 for an entry into the Korn Ferry Q School. Approx 5 grand in total for anybody wanting to get into the EuropeanTour. Seniors Tour now a closed shop apparently.

It isn't just the guys that have gone to the LIV that are in it for the money.
		
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 How does any of that make them corrupt?


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## PieMan (Jun 11, 2022)

It isn't just the guys that have gone to the LIV that are in it for the money.
		
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Surely anyone associated with the professional game is in it for the money, especially the players! If the players weren't they'd stay amateur!! 😉

What the LIV guys have chosen - especially those who are realising their best days are behind them - is to grab a piece of the vast sums on offer that are way above what they could earn on whatever tour they previously played on.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How does any of that make them corrupt?
		
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Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.


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## PieMan (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.
		
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How much is Greg taking from the Saudi's?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.
		
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Still not sure how that is corrupt.

As you seem to like a bit of whataboutery 

Have you had a look at the people funding the LIV tour? Even big Phil himself has been involved in actual corruption!


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## PieMan (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Have you had a look at the people funding the LIV tour? Even big Phil himself has been involved in actual corruption!
		
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What? Never! Not Phil, principled man of the people! 😉


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.
		
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Thank goodness we have the Saudi regime to stamp out the corruption at the top of golf.


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## AussieKB (Jun 11, 2022)

Everyone is in it for the money, that is why they are Professional, so neither side should be saying anything


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Everyone is in it for the money, that is why they are Professional, so neither side should be saying anything
		
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yeah much as the PGA is corrupt and DP world tour is a bit dodge at times I dont think Liv can be throwing stones in their glass house


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.
		
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I'm not here to defend him, but youre just making stuff up. Last published wage for him was $3.9m including incentives and bonuses. Covid saw him forgoe his salary completely.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Everyone is in it for the money, that is why they are Professional, so neither side should be saying anything
		
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It would be a pretty poor form if we didn’t discuss our opinions wouldn’t it 🤷🏼‍♂️

The problems, as always arise when people on either side aren’t able to engage in debate as sensible adults l.


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## howbow88 (Jun 11, 2022)

Anoetic said:



			It’s good to see a different format.  It didn’t harm cricket with the 20/20 format and there was a lot of scepticism when that started.
		
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A bit of strange comparison, but also fundamentally not true. Test Matches are slowly dying, with young cricketers now seeing the IPL as the pinnacle instead of 5 day internationals. Sad, but also understandable as the money is crazy. 

I like T20 (or whatever it is called) but it is harming test cricket. 

PS The 100 is arguably worse than LIV's preposterous teams thing. Except of course it isn't, because LIV's team thing is truly the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen in professional sports.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			I'm not here to defend him, but youre just making stuff up. Last published wage for him was $3.9m including incentives and bonuses. Covid saw him forgoe his salary completely.
		
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Indeed, and when was that last set of accounts dated?

Even then, the tax avoidance status, the charity donations, and the salary of the commisioner should all be questioned, shouldn't they?

How many events were played in the year he waived some of his salary?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Indeed, and when was that last set of accounts dated?
		
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2017 is the last official statement of earnings for him. I'm not arguing it's not more now, I'm saying your quote is unfounded. 




			Even then, the tax avoidance status, the charity donations, and the salary of the commisioner should all be questioned, shouldn't they?
		
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Sure. I'm not here to defend the PGA Tour, but you're on shaky ground trying to take the moral high ground here. 




			How many events were played in the year he waived some of his salary?
		
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No idea.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			A bit of strange comparison, but also fundamentally not true. Test Matches are slowly dying, with young cricketers now seeing the IPL as the pinnacle instead of 5 day internationals. Sad, but also understandable as the money is crazy.

I like T20 (or whatever it is called) but it is harming test cricket.

PS The 100 is arguably worse than LIV's preposterous teams thing. Except of course it isn't, because LIV's team thing is truly the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen in professional sports.
		
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It's sadly indicative of the times. Everything supposedly needs to happen quickly because more and more people don't have the time or concentration to watch longer events.

People will remember great test matches but nobody really remembers 20/20 cricket. It's bubblegum sport. Chew it, lose the flavour, spit it out and repeat. LIV golf has elements of that too.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.

The PGA Tour operates as a not for profit organisation - based on it's claims of it's charity work, and gets many tax breaks from the IRS because of this.

3% of the PGA Tours money goes to charities, around double of what the commisoner takes for himself.

Corrupt.
		
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To be honest, the PGA Tour has made the players very wealthy. But, it is not just about them. Clearly they are the key component. But take away everyone that runs the game, the admin, the legals, the sponsorship, the broadcasting, the venues, etc. the players would be nowhere near as rich as they are. They need the "boring" non golfers on the PGA to deal with all that rubbish. The golfers can then focus on playing golf and getting from A to B.

So, I have no problems with the top guys running the tour to make a lot of money. They probably work a lot harder than the players, we just don't see it. I have no idea what a reasonable salary would be, but if the top players are making millions and millions, then no issue with the very top people on PGA doing the same.

Not corrupt though. Unless he is claiming one salary, and then hiding a whole load extra under his bed?


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## BridgfordBlue (Jun 11, 2022)

I quite like the format and with a bit of tweaking I think the teams idea could work well too. Does need a better field though.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 11, 2022)

The only way the PGA Tour can keep these top players is to ban them from the majors. 
It's the only deterrent and I'm not sure legally whether they can do it. 

If you can play the Liv Tour and compete in the 4 majors then the floodgates will open with top players moving to Liv. 

The issue then is how do you qualify for the majors if Liv Tour events don't gain you World ranking points. 
If that conundrum gets sorted out the PGA Tour is on very shaky ground. 

I mean why wouldn't you play less events for SUBSTANTIALLY more money and still go chasing the majors ????? 

Dismiss the Liv Tour at your peril..


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The only way the PGA Tour can keep these top players is to ban them from the majors.
It's the only deterrent and I'm not sure legally whether they can do it.
.
		
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How can they do that ? The PGA Tour has no jurisdiction over the majors. They are run by four different and independent bodies.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

BridgfordBlue said:



			with a bit of tweaking I think the teams idea could work well too.
		
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How, and why ? Is it not just a random pick of four golfers and calling them this weeks team winners ? Its not a team game.
The teams element is the crowning of the nonsense, and shows how out of touch with golf as a sport the organisers are. I could imagine advertising or media types that come up with reality TV shows and the like thinking it was a good idea though.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Sam Horsfield currently in a position where he will win over double the amount today, than his total career earnings. Go on my son.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			How, and why ? Is it not just a random pick of four golfers and calling them this weeks team winners ? Its not a team game.
The teams element is the crowning of the nonsense, and shows how out of touch with golf as a sport the organisers are. I could imagine advertising or media types that come up with reality TV shows and the like thinking it was a good idea though.
		
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Im not so sure.. Drafts work well

so say your "team" is the aces.. this week you got DJ.. next week you could have bryson 

it keeps it interesting rather than having DJ always for the aces


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Sam Horsfield currently in a position where he will win over double the amount today, than his total career earnings. Go on my son.
		
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considering he has 3 wins on the DP world tour thats insane


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535612290527010817


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Im not so sure.. Drafts work well

so say your "team" is the aces.. this week you got DJ.. next week you could have bryson

it keeps it interesting rather than having DJ always for the aces
		
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Is it still not just four random players being declared the team winners though ? So there is no team really. Just the illusion of one. They are doing literally nothing as a team. Other than a made up name, no one will have any allegiance to a team or players. Its very poor. But does indicate how badly thought out this "innovation" is. Maybe there is a team concept for pro golf somwhere. But if this is the best they could come up with, they shouldnt have gone with it. It just makes them look stupid.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Sam Horsfield currently in a position where he will win over double the amount today, than his total career earnings. Go on my son.
		
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Its just money, and sports fans dont care about the money. Following golf for years, and I honestly dont know what the prize money is for the winner, down the field, or total fund is. Nor what their annual money list total is. All that matters there is the ranking. Fans are interested in winners, and this weekend's LIV will not count as a sporting win in any serious way, even if Horsfield were winning 100M£. Money does not a win make.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its just money, and sports fans dont care about the money. Following golf for years, and I honestly dont know what the prize money is for the winner, down the field, or total fund is. Nor what their annual money list total is. All that matters there is the ranking. Fans are interested in winners, and this weekend's LIV will not count as a sporting win in any serious way, even if Horsfield were winning 100M£. Money does not a win make.
		
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Ok Backsticks, are you going to pull apart everything I see with you're PGA Rosette emblazoned across your chest?


The winner today is the winner.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2022)

I'm more pro PGA Tour in this situation but only because of the way Norman and a lot of the players he's signed up have handled themselves. Norman is a bitter old man who has more chips on his shoulder than Binley Mega Chippy bangs out in a day. He only cares about money and getting one over on the PGA Tour, nothing else. Poulter and G-Mac don't care about growing the game, they care about growing their bank balance. Which is fine but have the bottle to say so. Telling lies and squirming in a press conference isn't a good look. Ditto Norman having a journalist thrown out and lying about it. Or the LIV players banning replies on social media. Just underhand and not the way you want to do things.

Theres no doubt the PGA Tour needed a shake up. I'd be in favour of the US PGA losing it's major status and it being granted to a major that travels around the world, to golf countries like Australia, Japan, China and other European countries. It's unfair all of the majors are in 2 countries. That would genuinely grow the game.

It'll be very interesting what the European Tour does and what the majors do. That will make or break the LIV Tour. If they back up the PGA Tour it'll be finished in a year or two. If the European Tour senses a weakness and a chance to grow themselves, then they could allow all the LIV players access to events which would increase the field quality, especially as more players switch. I think the majors will ban or make it very difficult for the LIV players to qualify next year though. Throw in the Ryder Cup and it's going to be a lively end to the year!

The plus point is this has raised the profile of golf and seen it make headlines on a daily basis again..


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

At present none of the American players in LIV are eligible for the Ryder Cup. To be honest if any of them on either side play I'll not watch.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

What surprises me is the amount of schadenfreude Americans especially have in the Saudis funneling billions into removing golf from their own country. Not that it shouldn't be as fixed as it is, but Twatter is full of flag flying, Americans actively wanting The PGA Tour to die on its arse. It's quite a thing to see. Too much Trump maybe? 😂


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I'm more pro PGA Tour in this situation but only because of the way Norman and a lot of the players he's signed up have handled themselves. Norman is a bitter old man who has more chips on his shoulder than Binley Mega Chippy bangs out in a day. He only cares about money and getting one over on the PGA Tour, nothing else. Poulter and G-Mac don't care about growing the game, they care about growing their bank balance. Which is fine but have the bottle to say so. Telling lies and squirming in a press conference isn't a good look. .
		
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Did you watch the full press conference. Both players said the money was a big influence. Poulter even pretty much admitted it was the main reason, with providing for his family number 1 priority.

Every press conference I saw, players were clear the money was a huge factor. So, I don't understand why some people have the impression they are pretending the money isn't important?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Poulter has earned $27m. It's a bit tiresome to keep hearing that they need the money. Not like they're queuing outside their local foodbank or wondering how to afford putting money in their electricity meter. 

Such is the protected bubble of top tier pro golf.


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2022)

How is that not anchoring the putter with Schwartzel 😱


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Meanwhile back in the real world.. 

"One community NHS worker said that the fuel price rise had outstripped the reimbursement they were given for petrol costs, so staff were now paying not just to get to work, but also to drive to patients’ houses to do their job"


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I'd be in favour of the US PGA losing it's major status and it being granted to a major that travels around the world, to golf countries like Australia, Japan, China and other European countries. It's unfair all of the majors are in 2 countries. That would genuinely grow the game.
		
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No one grants major status. You can call anything you like a major if you want. But they have acquired the status through the evolving history of golf. It isnt a franchise to be reassigned.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Poulter has earned $27m. It's a bit tiresome to keep hearing that they need the money. Not like they're queuing outside their local foodbank or wondering how to afford putting money in their electricity meter. 

Such is the protected bubble of top tier pro golf.
		
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Of course they are already incredibly wealthy. But, it is human nature. I imagine few to none of us are queuing outside food banks either? I am sure some of us are quite comfortable. But, if you had the chance to increase your salary multiple times over, and have an extra day or 2 off a week, I wouldn't negatively judge you for taking that new job. If you don't, someone else will just take it anyway.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Did you watch the full press conference. Both players said the money was a big influence. Poulter even pretty much admitted it was the main reason, with providing for his family number 1 priority.

Every press conference I saw, players were clear the money was a huge factor. So, I don't understand why some people have the impression they are pretending the money isn't important?
		
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I did and they mentioned it but it was talked about a level below the "growing the game" nonsense.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Poulter has earned $27m. It's a bit tiresome to keep hearing that they need the money. Not like they're queuing outside their local foodbank or wondering how to afford putting money in their electricity meter.

Such is the protected bubble of top tier pro golf.
		
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Its is a pitiful line many of them are trotting out. 'looking after my family' does sound good on the face of it. Of course we all sympathise with a father wanting to feed and clothe his kids. But these guys are multimillionaires already. Just say - 'I am very rich already, like it, and want even more money. These guys are offering bucket loads to me, so I signed.'.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course they are already incredibly wealthy. But, it is human nature. I imagine few to none of us are queuing outside food banks either? I am sure some of us are quite comfortable. But, if you had the chance to increase your salary multiple times over, and have an extra day or 2 off a week, I would negatively judge you for taking that new job. If you don't, someone else will just take it anyway.
		
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It's 100% human nature. I bring home a good wage but I don't turn down overtime to pay for extra holidays or golf clubs ..

If someone said double your salary, work half the time and no nights 

Where do I sign


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course they are already incredibly wealthy. But, it is human nature. I imagine few to none of us are queuing outside food banks either? I am sure some of us are quite comfortable. But, if you had the chance to increase your salary multiple times over, and have an extra day or 2 off a week, I wouldn't negatively judge you for taking that new job. If you don't, someone else will just take it anyway.
		
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I have no quibble with them signing for bigger and more secure money. But the 'Ive got mouths to feed and need to do this to put bread on the table' aroma is disingenuous.


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No one grants major status. You can call anything you like a major if you want. But they have acquired the status through the evolving history of golf. It isnt a franchise to be reassigned.
		
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The PGA Tour and media have been trying to give The Players major status over the last few years so you're right. Major status has been in place for so many decades it needs a shake up IMO. Totally wrong 3/4 majors are based in a single country.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I did and they mentioned it but it was talked about a level below the "growing the game" nonsense.
		
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I just watched it again, looked like it was the first thing Poulter said. Either way, they still said it, and the order things come out will largely be based on the journalists questions.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Meanwhile back in the real world..

"One community NHS worker said that the fuel price rise had outstripped the reimbursement they were given for petrol costs, so staff were now paying not just to get to work, but also to drive to patients’ houses to do their job"
		
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That petrol money that goes to Saudi to go to Phil. Nice. Phil thanks NHS worker.


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535640788754907136


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

Growing the game is just a line trotted out because it seems impossible to criticise, like feeding their hungry children huddled in rags in the background. It just opens them to more criticism. Some of them sound very badly advised, or simply arent thinking about what they are saying. There is a rabbits in the headlights vibe from  a lot of them, which does reveal they are very uneasy with what they are doing. But doing it nonetheless.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Depreston said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535640788754907136

Click to expand...

Hit him in the bum


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I have no quibble with them signing for bigger and more secure money. But the 'Ive got mouths to feed and need to do this to put bread on the table' aroma is disingenuous.
		
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That is your words, which is not what I heard once from any of them. I am sure they are not worried about putting bread on table.

Maybe he wants to ensure his immediate family have extremely comfortable lives. When his kids grow up, have the money to give them big houses, cars, the dream wedding, expensive university? Maybe he spreads the money to other family members? No idea how they all invest their money, but the more they make the more they can spread to their family.


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

Why kick him


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## 4LEX (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Hit him in the bum
		
Click to expand...

Punishable by death in Saudi


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course they are already incredibly wealthy. But, it is human nature. I imagine few to none of us are queuing outside food banks either? I am sure some of us are quite comfortable. But, if you had the chance to increase your salary multiple times over, and have an extra day or 2 off a week, I wouldn't negatively judge you for taking that new job. If you don't, someone else will just take it anyway.
		
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People keep perpetuating the myth that nobody has any morals or ethics and that we'd all accept £x much more to do the same job even regardless of who was paying. This has already been knocked back by professional golfers who haven't taken the money. Not everyone is driven by money. If they were the hospitals that look after you wouldn't have any nurses in them. 

I remember walking to work on the day I'd been paid and I had £20 to last me the month. I've also avoided jobs with companies and organisations I don't agree with. Your mileage may vary.


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## IainP (Jun 11, 2022)

Thought I'd watch a bit.
Seems Centurion has been a decent test and split the field (albeit small).
Bit surprised they haven't been pushing the 'team leaderboard' more as on last 9 holes. (Not that I'm especially interested in it)
Several South Africans always seem to regularly play well in blighty in summer.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			People keep perpetuating the myth that nobody has any morals or ethics and that we'd all accept £x much more to do the same job even regardless of who was paying. This has already been knocked back by professional golfers who haven't taken the money. Not everyone is driven by money. If they were the hospitals that look after you wouldn't have any nurses in them. 

I remember walking to work on the day I'd been paid and I had £20 to last me the month. I've also avoided jobs with companies and organisations I don't agree with. Your mileage may vary.
		
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The reason many have not yet left is because they find it too risky to their PGA Career. They have much more to lose. I am positive they are not sticking to the PGA because they think "I have more than enough money anyway".

Patrick Reed confirmed now


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

The most memorable moments of the LIV so far.?

Shipnuck calling out Norman after being escorted off the premises and him actually witnessing it 

Lad getting hit in the arse and going down like bishop brennan

I’ve enjoyed the off field antics more than the golf tbf absolutely love the fact they’re selling pimento cheese sandwiches also 🤣🤣


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The reason many have not yet left is because they find it too risky to their PGA Career. They have much more to lose. I am positive they are not sticking to the PGA because they think "I have more than enough money anyway".
		
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Maybe the case for some, but the idea that everyone would take the money is facile. 




			Patrick Reed confirmed now
		
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My only surprise was he didn't go earlier.

Captain Saudi?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

I’ve watched about half an hour of it now. 

It feels like watching a Europro event. If it wasn’t for the commentators reminding me every 30 seconds how exciting it was it would be pretty uninspiring. I did particularly enjoy being told how popular Patrick Reed is 🙄

There doesn’t look to be very many there. I’d seen reports that there were more people coming in for the concert with their free tickets than watched the golf yesterday.

Also the constant pushing of the team element. Does anyone really care about the team element? 

At least the shotgun format will give us an exciting finish to see who wins!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Maybe the case for some, but the idea that everyone would take the money is facile. 



My only surprise was he didn't go earlier.

Captain Saudi?
		
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True, I cannot speak for every single individual. But, generally, I am pretty sure the vast majority of pro's would happily earn significantly more money if there was little risk to their career. Which is why I am curious to see what happens as more big name players make the switch.

I'm sure the European Tour used to have some big players who earned a good living. However, in the last 10-20 years the lure of the PGA and the increased money was too great.


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## Backsticks (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Also the constant pushing of the team element. Does anyone really care about the team element?
		
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No. Literally, nobody.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve watched about half an hour of it now. 

It feels like watching a Europro event. If it wasn’t for the commentators reminding me every 30 seconds how exciting it was it would be pretty uninspiring. I did particularly enjoy being told how popular Patrick Reed is 🙄

There doesn’t look to be very many there. I’d seen reports that there were more people coming in for the concert with their free tickets than watched the golf yesterday.

Also the constant pushing of the team element. Does anyone really care about the team element? 

At least the shotgun format will give us an exciting finish to see who wins!
		
Click to expand...

Exciting finish? Only if Schwartzel blows his 5 shot lead on the back 9. Though no idea who has the easiest and hardest holes to play?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Exciting finish? Only if Schwartzel blows his 5 shot lead on the back 9. Though no idea who has the easiest and hardest holes to play?
		
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I was being sarcastic. We were told that the format would give us an exciting finish. Remember that Billy Horschel winning last week was considered boring.

On a separate note. Anyone who thinks it’s easy to hit a fairway by hitting an iron off the tee for safety, should really be watching this.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Who was it that said Andy Ogletree was unfairly treated by not being allowed to play on the KF?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

82222 watching it ATM

Not sure how the numbers work if that's just UK based


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

9/11 survivors group send letter to 11 US LIV Golfers

https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/




			“Given Saudi Arabia’s role in the death of our loved ones and those injured on 9/11—your fellow Americans—we are angered that you are so willing to help the Saudis cover up this history in their request for ‘respectability.’  When you partner with the Saudis, you become complicit with their whitewash, and help give them the reputational cover they so desperately crave—and are willing to pay handsomely to manufacture. The Saudis do not care about the deep-rooted sportsmanship of golf or its origins as a gentleman’s game built upon core values of mutual respect and personal integrity.  They care about using professional golf to whitewash their reputation, and they are paying you to help them do it.

More players are also expected to defect from the PGA Tour to LIV Golf, which is backed by the Public Investment Fund — the Saudi sovereign wealth fund headed by crown prince Mohammed bin Salman that is essentially bankrolling the series. MBS, as he is known, was behind the murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, in 2018, according to US intelligence.”

“We understand that some of you are hopeful that rule changes will be implemented to allow you to again represent America in the Ryder Cup, despite your betrayal of American interests in joining the Saudi ‘sports wash,'” Strada said in the letter. “It is absurd for any American who chooses Saudi oil money over the September 11 community to think that these exceptions should be made, and we will be sure to say so publicly should you pursue that path under the misguided notion that your betrayal will go unnoticed.”
		
Click to expand...


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			9/11 survivors group send letter to 11 US LIV Golfers

https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/

Click to expand...

They’re not allowed to criticise the disgusting human rights record of the Saudi lads as they’ve no doubt not led perfectly flawless lives … they’ve probs used an Uber or subscribed to Disney plus and their teles from China

Also the above means they can’t highlight that executing journalists is very bad because the pga tour denies the players use of their image rights iirc


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## OntheteeGavin (Jun 11, 2022)

Just enjoying watching the Curtis cup. Course looks lovely. 

Looking forward to the bonesaw tour growing the ladies game.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 11, 2022)

Just met Horsfields girlfriend whilst following him! One lucky boy 😂


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			How can they do that ? The PGA Tour has no jurisdiction over the majors. They are run by four different and independent bodies.
		
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I meant if the majors align with the PGA Tour and DP Tour..


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Patrick reed just joined 

Well just as it was looking promising it's taken a nose dive


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I meant if the majors align with the PGA Tour and DP Tour..
		
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How many current LIV players are eligible to play in the majors anyway? And with no ranking points on offer some of them will slide out of contention or further away from it.


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## IainP (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How many current LIV players are eligible to play in the majors anyway? And with no ranking points on offer some of them will slide out of contention or further away from it.
		
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Rumours of 'brown envelopes' winging to the OGWR committee perhaps... 😉🤫🤔


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Patrick Reed's LIV logo released.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Patrick Reed confirmed now
		
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Of course he has because........"I'm super excited. Just the thought of being part of an evolution and a change in golf for the better for me is unbelievable." Nothing to do with the boat load of dollars winging it's way into his bank account. Just be honest about why you are playing.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

Pat Perez confirmed and they just interviewws him. He admitted the only reason he got a call was because he is great mates with DJ, and DJ wanted him in his team.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 11, 2022)

Apparently Varner & Kokrac too.

14 events next year.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			How is that not anchoring the putter with Schwartzel 😱
		
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Because all golfers are honest so he can't be doing it 🙄. It's why Langer isn't penalised every week as well.


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## IainP (Jun 11, 2022)

Well played Charl & the saffers

Only watched a little on Thursday but it seemed the shots shown was a bit less today, maybe to focus more on the leaders. Even so I did like not seeing as much pacing, chatting, and huffing & puffing - just a personal preference. Of course the coverage is different from the tournament so that may change if a big US broadcaster takes over at some point but you'd think liv would want to keep some control to fit with the marketing.
Would have preferred the commentators to talk less about the $ but that is the world we are in I guess.


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## Harry Putter (Jun 11, 2022)

I've not read all 90 pages so sorry if it's come up before but the question is this... with more high ranking players joining and only (18 x 3) 54 players at each tournament for each start, how do people like Mr Ogletree..  number 1349 in the OWGR get a start?  Having committed themselves, how can they guarantee a place and therefore earnings every week?. Surely no place, no money?


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## PieMan (Jun 11, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			I've not read all 90 pages so sorry if it's come up before but the question is this... with more high ranking players joining and only (18 x 3) 54 players at each tournament for each start, how do people like Mr Ogletree..  number 1349 in the OWGR get a start?  Having committed themselves, how can they guarantee a place and therefore earnings every week?. Surely no place, no money?
		
Click to expand...

Caddying.


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## adam6177 (Jun 11, 2022)

Really enjoyed that 3 days of golf. Not sure if it's because it's the new novelty event, but I found that more watchable that your average weekly tour event.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Really enjoyed that 3 days of golf. Not sure if it's because it's the new novelty event, but I found that more watchable that your average weekly tour event.
		
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I know this will sound silly but the most interesting part of a golf event is the last day. Back 9 really

So after this could go watch the Canadian open tomorrow and won't affect the PGAs viewing figures for tomorrow


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## BridgfordBlue (Jun 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			How, and why ? Is it not just a random pick of four golfers and calling them this weeks team winners ? Its not a team game.
The teams element is the crowning of the nonsense, and shows how out of touch with golf as a sport the organisers are. I could imagine advertising or media types that come up with reality TV shows and the like thinking it was a good idea though.
		
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I think it’s got potential depending what they do with it. Currently I agree it’s pretty pointless.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How many current LIV players are eligible to play in the majors anyway? And with no ranking points on offer some of them will slide out of contention or further away from it.
		
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Grab your popcorn and watch plenty of them go in the next 3 weeks...


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## Crow (Jun 11, 2022)

Tied 9th is rubbish, they'd better up their game for the next one. 

(Schwartzel was using a cheat-stick, his win means nothing to me.)


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## larmen (Jun 11, 2022)

I missed today. How is the experience of shotgun start in the last round? Does it make it less exciting towards the end? I enjoyed that on the 1st 2 days because of the always action aspect.

And looking at the results, it seem the 'big guys' did decide right. None of their scores screams payday in a tour event.


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## srixon 1 (Jun 11, 2022)

With the next event taking place in The USA I would expect the viewing figures to be less as it will be taking place at the same time as the PGA event.


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## slicer79 (Jun 11, 2022)

I see that a group representing the families of 9/11 victims have written to the American players involved in the Liv tour expressing their disgust at their involvement, calling them traitors to America. Messy stuff


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

srixon 1 said:



			With the next event taking place in The USA I would expect the viewing figures to be less as it will be taking place at the same time as the PGA event.
		
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I expect them to be more 

More names signed up

US Soil , times suit them more. Americans will lap it up


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## Springveldt (Jun 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Pat Perez confirmed and they just interviewws him. He admitted the only reason he got a call was because he is great mates with DJ, and DJ wanted him in his team.
		
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As I said in an earlier post I’m really looking forward to a podcast getting him on soon. His last one on the Subpar podcast was brilliant. He was talking about the tour when he said “we’ve even got a guy out here now that wears two gloves. Not only does he wear two gloves he’s also slow as shit”. Had me in stitches.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			I see that a group representing the families of 9/11 victims have written to the American players involved in the Liv tour expressing their disgust at their involvement, calling them traitors to America. Messy stuff
		
Click to expand...

Yet their own government sell arms to the Saudis?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 11, 2022)

larmen said:



			I missed today. How is the experience of shotgun start in the last round? Does it make it less exciting towards the end? I enjoyed that on the 1st 2 days because of the always action aspect.

And looking at the results, it seem the 'big guys' did decide right. None of their scores screams payday in a tour event.
		
Click to expand...

No more exciting than usual. Last few holes, you still had a couple competing at top. Think it would only ever make a difference if players on different holes were fighting for win, as they'd finish at same time.


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## slicer79 (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet their own government sell arms to the Saudis?
		
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I haven't a clue if they do, I've zero interest in politics. 
But I can understand if a family member was killed as a result of Saudi people you might have difficulty understanding how a fellow American citizen could join this tour


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			I haven't a clue if they do, I've zero interest in politics.
But I can understand if a family member was killed as a result of Saudi people you might have difficulty understanding how a fellow American citizen could join this tour
		
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Saudi are the USA biggest foreign arms buyer .

So whilst I understand their anger their own country do far worse every single day


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## Redtraveller (Jun 11, 2022)

This arguement “if you were offered double pay and an extra days off you’d move jobs” is nonsense. I absolutely would. These fellas are multiple millionaires who can have whatever they want whenever they want and have as many days off as they want. The normal person isn’t so the comparison is nonsense.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2022)

So who won ? And what did they get for their money from the likes of Mickleson , DJ , Poulter , Westwood and McDowell


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How many current LIV players are eligible to play in the majors anyway? And with no ranking points on offer some of them will slide out of contention or further away from it.
		
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The past winners of the Masters will still be eligible of course 

Then Mickleson, ,Kaymer ,Na and Louis due to rankings and past winning 

Westwood and Bland due to ranking , Piot ( us Am ) 

The Open - Poulter and Weisburger are in 

The rest will need to qualify


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So who won ? And what did they get for their money from the likes of Mickleson , DJ , Poulter , Westwood and McDowell
		
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Schwartzel won by one shot.

They got huge amounts of publicity from those names for one, crucial at this stage of the tours evolution. As for how they played, it's one tournament. That needs to be judged at the end.


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Saudi are the USA biggest foreign arms buyer .

So whilst I understand their anger their own country do far worse every single day
		
Click to expand...

It’s good you can understand their points and recognise the Saudis are not a great bunch of lads even if they have made a golf product you enjoy watching


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## garyinderry (Jun 11, 2022)

The team thing was a complete damp squib. 

Quelle surprise


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2022)

There are courses to be played, and some players, I like or am interested to see.
But I don’t want to have to watch on my phone or office PC. So won’t get to see much. Plus there aren’t enough big names (top 10-20) to catch my interest.
As such I’ll stick to what sky show.
But I’ll reiterate my earlier statement; if LIV want to be truly innovative and encourage the youth, and grow the game, (plus piss off the PGA tour) they should be handing gratis coverage to national free to air broadcasters, like the beeb. Which is where I got into golf. Watching live events from Wentworth, the Open, Sunningdale,st Mellion, the Oxfordshire etc.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			There are courses to be played, and some players, I like or am interested to see.
But I don’t want to have to watch on my phone or office PC. So won’t get to see much. Plus there aren’t enough big names (top 10-20) to catch my interest.
As such I’ll stick to what sky show.
But I’ll reiterate my earlier statement; if LIV want to be truly innovative and encourage the youth, and grow the game, (plus piss off the PGA tour) they should be handing gratis coverage to national free to air broadcasters, like the beeb. Which is where I got into golf. Watching live events from Wentworth, the Open, Sunningdale,st Mellion, the Oxfordshire etc.
		
Click to expand...

Does your TV not have YouTube? 


Depreston said:



			It’s good you can understand their points and recognise the Saudis are not a great bunch of lads even if they have made a golf product you enjoy watching
		
Click to expand...

Have said from the start. Saudis no excusing. Won't stop me watching 

America is full of nutters and their gov deal with Saudis for arms (as do ours) still will watch their TV and enjoy holidays there


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			There are courses to be played, and some players, I like or am interested to see.
But I don’t want to have to watch on my phone or office PC. So won’t get to see much. Plus there aren’t enough big names (top 10-20) to catch my interest.
As such I’ll stick to what sky show.
But I’ll reiterate my earlier statement; if LIV want to be truly innovative and encourage the youth, and grow the game, (plus piss off the PGA tour) they should be handing gratis coverage to national free to air broadcasters, like the beeb. Which is where I got into golf. Watching live events from Wentworth, the Open, Sunningdale,st Mellion, the Oxfordshire etc.
		
Click to expand...

What makes you think the BBC, or similar want it? They barely want major coverage, why would they want to hand over a channel for 5-6 hours for an everyday tournament?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			So far it’s awesome 😂 loads of people here
		
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How was it in the end? Boring or interesting on the ground


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			There are courses to be played, and some players, I like or am interested to see.
But I don’t want to have to watch on my phone or office PC. So won’t get to see much. Plus there aren’t enough big names (top 10-20) to catch my interest.
As such I’ll stick to what sky show.
But I’ll reiterate my earlier statement; if LIV want to be truly innovative and encourage the youth, and grow the game, (plus piss off the PGA tour) they should be handing gratis coverage to national free to air broadcasters, like the beeb. Which is where I got into golf. Watching live events from Wentworth, the Open, Sunningdale,st Mellion, the Oxfordshire etc.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think that the BBC would clear their schedules for 3 days to show golf. They have no interest in golf above the odd highlight show for the Open and the Masters. Cleaverest move that the golf authorities made was convincing sky that there was widespread competition for rights to televise golf in the UK, there really isn't


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## Depreston (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			There are courses to be played, and some players, I like or am interested to see.
But I don’t want to have to watch on my phone or office PC. So won’t get to see much. Plus there aren’t enough big names (top 10-20) to catch my interest.
As such I’ll stick to what sky show.
But I’ll reiterate my earlier statement; if LIV want to be truly innovative and encourage the youth, and grow the game, (plus piss off the PGA tour) they should be handing gratis coverage to national free to air broadcasters, like the beeb. Which is where I got into golf. Watching live events from Wentworth, the Open, Sunningdale,st Mellion, the Oxfordshire etc.
		
Click to expand...

They don’t though they’re happy with all these people who will stick up for them across social media screaming what about this what about that because they’re giving them something new and shiny to watch


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What makes you think the BBC, or similar want it? They barely want major coverage, why would they want to hand over a channel for 5-6 hours for an everyday tournament?
		
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Do you think the beeb would turn down free content?


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Does your TV not have YouTube?


Have said from the start. Saudis no excusing. Won't stop me watching

America is full of nutters and their gov deal with Saudis for arms (as do ours) still will watch their TV and enjoy holidays there
		
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No. Otherwise I’d watch some before the pga event starts🤷🏻‍♂️


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2022)

Looks like there are more people round the 16th in Canada than the whole of the LIV tournament. 

The atmosphere looked properly good.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Do you think the beeb would turn down free content?
		
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Honestly, yes. Not sure many channels would give up their existing schedule to show 3 days of golf.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Do you think the beeb would turn down free content?
		
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I'm not sure but I don't think golf holds any interest for them or their schedule so I genuinely expect they would.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			No. Otherwise I’d watch some before the pga event starts🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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Does your TV not have apps? In 2022?? Or the ability to cast from your phone to the TV?

Is it colour?

Fire TV Stick Lite with Alexa Voice Remote Lite | HD streaming device (no TV controls) https://amzn.eu/d/dJtzLGg

YouTube Via one of them, not just for this ofx so many apps on it


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Does your TV not have apps? In 2022?? Or the ability to cast from your phone to the TV?

Is it colour?
		
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It’s a tv which works…there has been no reason to replace it.
I have to watch sport and little else.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It’s a tv which works…there has been no reason to replace it.
I have to watch sport and little else.
		
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Fire TV Stick Lite with Alexa Voice Remote Lite | HD streaming device (no TV controls) https://amzn.eu/d/dJtzLGg

I added this afters 

These add so many apps to your TV .. slots in the hdmi .. YouTube. Netflix 

What sky box do you have? If you have sky q it's on there I believe


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## fenwayrich (Jun 11, 2022)

McIlroy, Finau, Thomas and Burns top 4 in the Canadian Open as I write. Fine golfers in their prime. That's what I want to see, not some hyped up tournament offering little but a shed load of dodgy cash.

My opinion of course. Hopefully one to which I am entitled, living as I do in England, not Saudi Arabia.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Fire TV Stick Lite with Alexa Voice Remote Lite | HD streaming device (no TV controls) https://amzn.eu/d/dJtzLGg

I added this afters

These add so many apps to your TV .. slots in the hdmi .. YouTube. Netflix

What sky box do you have? If you have sky q it's on there I believe
		
Click to expand...

I watched some of it on YouTube. Out of curiosity. It was awful, unwatchable rubbish. The commentary was terrible, the presentation worse. Maybe they should have spent more of the budget on the package. It’s a sideshow, and not a very interesting one at that


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I watched some of it on YouTube. Out of curiosity. It was awful, unwatchable rubbish. The commentary was terrible, the presentation worse. Maybe they should have spent more of the budget on the package. It’s a sideshow, and not a very interesting one at that
		
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Are you English? Because I'm afraid that was very much aimed at the Americans 

It was like watching their sport coverage for basketball, NFL, baseball


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## Leftitshort (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Are you English? Because I'm afraid that was very much aimed at the Americans

It was like watching their sport coverage for basketball, NFL, baseball
		
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 It was aimed at idiots


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Fire TV Stick Lite with Alexa Voice Remote Lite | HD streaming device (no TV controls) https://amzn.eu/d/dJtzLGg

I added this afters

These add so many apps to your TV .. slots in the hdmi .. YouTube. Netflix

What sky box do you have? If you have sky q it's on there I believe
		
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Frankly I don’t have a clue about such things. Not my area of interest.
I watch what I can and don’t watch what I can’t .
Would rather be on the Course or in the bar.
TV is an added extra , not a necessity for me.


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## Springveldt (Jun 11, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			The team thing was a complete damp squib.

Quelle surprise
		
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Not for the South Africans who pocketed $750K each.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 11, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			True, but that's not planned in advance. Should 3 rounds be worth less ranking points than 4?
		
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Agreed - but there should be some for a 54 hole tournament.


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## Beezerk (Jun 12, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Do you think the beeb would turn down free content?
		
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The bbc have been anti LIV from the start, they’d rather burn in hell than show any of that content. Heck they aren’t even recognising it as a legitimate event on their website, no live coverage or leaderboard to be seen despite it being the biggest talking point in golf for a long time, only thing they have done is publish negative stories.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The bbc have been anti LIV from the start, they’d rather burn in hell than show any of that content. Heck they aren’t even recognising it as a legitimate event on their website, no live coverage or leaderboard to be seen despite it being the biggest talking point in golf for a long time, only thing they have done is publish negative stories.
		
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https://www.golfchannel.com/skysports/tours

Not much different to Sky then 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61771007

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf

They have plenty of reports and articles for it 

Did anyone have a live leaderboard? There wasn’t even one on the LiV website


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			What surprises me is the amount of schadenfreude Americans especially have in the Saudis funneling billions into removing golf from their own country. Not that it shouldn't be as fixed as it is, but Twatter is full of flag flying, Americans actively wanting The PGA Tour to die on its arse. It's quite a thing to see. Too much Trump maybe? 😂
		
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It rained today on the course....I BLAME DONALD, get over it.


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Poulter has earned $27m. It's a bit tiresome to keep hearing that they need the money. Not like they're queuing outside their local foodbank or wondering how to afford putting money in their electricity meter.

Such is the protected bubble of top tier pro golf.
		
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So when you earn a certain amount you have to stop ?
why do top players like Tiger and Rory still demand appearance money then, seems you only want to see things from one side of the fence.


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its is a pitiful line many of them are trotting out. 'looking after my family' does sound good on the face of it. Of course we all sympathise with a father wanting to feed and clothe his kids. But these guys are multimillionaires already. Just say - 'I am very rich already, like it, and want even more money. These guys are offering bucket loads to me, so I signed.'.
		
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So you would turn down more money to work somewhere else then ?


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The bbc have been anti LIV from the start, they’d rather burn in hell than show any of that content. Heck they aren’t even recognising it as a legitimate event on their website, no live coverage or leaderboard to be seen despite it being the biggest talking point in golf for a long time, only thing they have done is publish negative stories.
		
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Top of the page on BBC Sport website.


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			9/11 survivors group send letter to 11 US LIV Golfers

https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/

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Did they send one to all who have played in Saudi the last 10 years ?


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

slicer79 said:



			I haven't a clue if they do, I've zero interest in politics.
But I can understand if a family member was killed as a result of Saudi people you might have difficulty understanding how a fellow American citizen could join this tour
		
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But no preoblem a golfer accepting a $1 million appearance money to play there....Tiger


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## AussieKB (Jun 12, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			McIlroy, Finau, Thomas and Burns top 4 in the Canadian Open as I write. Fine golfers in their prime. That's what I want to see, not some hyped up tournament offering little but a shed load of dodgy cash.

My opinion of course. Hopefully one to which I am entitled, living as I do in England, not Saudi Arabia.
		
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Your choice....don't watch.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So when you earn a certain amount you have to stop ?
why do top players like Tiger and Rory still demand appearance money then, seems you only want to see things from one side of the fence.
		
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That is how Joe Public thinks. Joe Public can do what they like. They could have a lovely detached house. Be a member of a lovely golf course. Have 2 or 3 holidays a year. Have a nice car, or two. They have no worries about putting food on the table, and also no problem if a better job comes along and they get more money.

However, if Joe Public sees a sportsperson on TV who earns lots of money, they get mad. They don't see the sports person as a business professional.  They just see someone playing a game, not someone who is simply in a lucky position to have had a special talent and doing a job we'd all love, but don't have what it takes. So, if they earn even MORE money, suddenly Joe Public is furious and   suddenly it is greed (while Joe Public accepted a pay rise last year, about to go to Maldives on holiday, and they have no guilt that they can do that while some families genuinely struggle to eat).

Maybe the perception is different for business people? Elon Musk or Bill Gates don't need even more money, despite the fact they continue to innovate and add to.their business portfolios. Their wealth dwarfs and sports person. But, maybe because their profession isn't a sport or a game, and feels a bit boring or complicated, Joe Public is less inclined to show outrage when Musk earns another $50 billion.

I've no idea what the earning limit is for a sports person before Joe Public likes to be offended / disgusted to the point they call a sportsperson a knob. However, if there really was a good reason to.have this opinion, they should have called virtually all.major sportspeople knobs long before now. They have earned significant money long before now, and negotiated bigger and better deals for themselves over the years.


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## Depreston (Jun 12, 2022)

https://www.sportinglife.com/golf/n...on-saudi-arabia-backed-golf-tournament/201425

Excellent intro and ending to the article 

The bit in the middle I’ll let the Saudi sympathisers tell me how wrong he is on here


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## Dando (Jun 12, 2022)

I quite enjoyed it.

Let’s hope they ditch the presenters and replace them with Paige Spirinac


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2022)

I hadn't been paying close attention but did wonder how ended up with a couple of 'country teams'.  I'd assumed the teams would broadly stay the same for the year with a few individuals swapping in & out. Is an odd one.

Guess the Scottish open could be a key moment, being co-sanctioned. May give some clues to how this might all shake out.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Watched plenty of that, the first time in a long time I've been able to  - as I can't justify a Sky Sports package for the amount of TV I watch.
For the first event, I thought it was a success, the ending wasn't the cliffhanger some would have hoped, but even so, it did tighten up at the top near the end of the round. I'd like to see a course layout with a realtively difficult 18th finishing hole just to add some difficulty for the likely leaders - just to add the chance of them being caught by players on the 17th, 16th etc.
Schwartzel played well all weekend, deserved the win, and Louis picked a strong team - now I'm not sure how the draft will work next time, but Schwartzel, Grace and DuPlessis will obviously be the guys everybody wants, assuming it's a complete fresh start on the team drafts?


I'm looking forward to the next one now, and the new names that will be added between this event and Portland


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



https://www.sportinglife.com/golf/n...on-saudi-arabia-backed-golf-tournament/201425

Excellent intro and ending to the article

The bit in the middle I’ll let the Saudi sympathisers tell me how wrong he is on here
		
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That guy nailed his colours to the mast well in advance of this weekend, absolute bell end.


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## JamesR (Jun 12, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534189508119433223
Are Charl, Louis etc able to be picked?
This suggest they are already a team


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534189508119433223
Are Charl, Louis etc able to be picked?
This suggest they are already a team
		
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Fair enough, I wasn't sure myself. I guess as the events tick by, the teams will become more settled with an identity as is the case with Majestix, and Stinger.


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## Depreston (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That guy nailed his colours to the mast well in advance of this weekend, absolute bell end.
		
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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

....and worked a day less. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535696782650494979


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So you would turn down more money to work somewhere else then ?
		
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I have many times.

I turned down a ‘life changing’ salary after being approached to work for a Saudi developer. A good friend of mine works for them and loves it. I’ve also turned down other roles in that region paying a lot more than I was earning at the time.

A couple of months I turned down a job that would have been £10k pay rise, but would have lost all the flexibility I have with my current job.

I could easily earn more money than I do now. But I’ve chased the money before and as Rory said, it doesn’t always lead to better things. Not everyone is motivated by a few extra £


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



https://www.sportinglife.com/golf/n...on-saudi-arabia-backed-golf-tournament/201425

Excellent intro and ending to the article

The bit in the middle I’ll let the Saudi sympathisers tell me how wrong he is on here
		
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That article pretty much nailed it.


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## Beezerk (Jun 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Top of the page on BBC Sport website.
		
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Yes I see that, it’s the first article they have done on the event in a proper sports reporting manner.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			What surprises me is the amount of schadenfreude Americans especially have in the Saudis funneling billions into removing golf from their own country. Not that it shouldn't be as fixed as it is, but Twatter is full of flag flying, Americans actively wanting The PGA Tour to die on its arse. It's quite a thing to see. Too much Trump maybe? 😂
		
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On SM it does appear to be the MAGA lot in the US and red top readers over here that are lapping it up.


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## IanM (Jun 12, 2022)

I declined a job with a Saudi Bank back in the 90s for daft money.  Long story not appropriate for here.

Mind you, the PGA Tour are no saints either.

None of these golfers are kipping on park benches.  

I guess you have integrity or you don't


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## Imurg (Jun 12, 2022)

In a way I wish they'd stop saying that they "earned" $x zillion....
Not really sure they earned it....got paid it -yeah..but earned it🤔


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## Backsticks (Jun 12, 2022)

Depreston said:



https://www.sportinglife.com/golf/n...on-saudi-arabia-backed-golf-tournament/201425

Click to expand...

That sums it up very well. There is no need to link in the politics of SA. The world is a messy place.

But this LIV venture made a mess of pro golf on pro golf levels alone.

If I were a Saudi prince, I would not at all be impressed at the return Greg is giving me for my billions.
The whole event was farcical really.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Did they send one to all who have played in Saudi the last 10 years ?
		
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So for anyone to be justifiably upset by some sporting/political event, they not only have to have knowledge of every other sporting/political event, but also write a letter about all of them?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So when you earn a certain amount you have to stop ?
why do top players like Tiger and Rory still demand appearance money then, seems you only want to see things from one side of the fence.
		
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For the greedy man there is never enough. It's true.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			In a way I wish they'd stop saying that they "earned" $x zillion....
Not really sure they earned it....got paid it -yeah..but earned it🤔
		
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Could you not say that about all sports man? Their vastly overpaid for what they do


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 12, 2022)

This is well worth a watch. 
Very good description of where we are currently at with the Liv Golf Tour and it's impact.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2022)

Let’s look at this from the viewpoint of the venues.

Centurion has hosted a couple of experimental European Tour events, but has not broken into the top echelon of venues where regular events are held.

Possible candidate for future British Masters, but there are many more established venues in line.

So I can see why Centurion decided to host, ups their profile and could return next year. Not sure how the European tour will react to this.

I’ve looked at the rest of the schedule and the American venues are not ones that are familiar to me, therefore I deduce that they are not places where PGA events are played, but they want to up their profiles.

So by hosting LIV, they are burning their boats with any chance of holding a PGA event, which was probably unlikely anyway, 
And by hosting LIV they up their profile, 

Win win as far as I can see


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## Backsticks (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Could you not say that about all sports man? Their vastly overpaid for what they do
		
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Other sports don't bang on about the money in the commentary. We don't hear in every game what Salah is earning per weak, or what bonus for goals City pays Debruyne, what the rugby team gets if they win the six nations, or what Nadal gets if he wins this match. We know they are well paid. But the sporting narrative is enough, without the financials.
But the money is all LIV has. As sport, it is a pauper. So they have to push this point all the time. NOT like other sports.


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This is well worth a watch.
Very good description of where we are currently at with the Liv Golf Tour and it's impact.







Click to expand...

Pretty good, did seem to become confused to what suspended meant later on. Interesting take on the Masters, they must be pleased with their marketing.
We may never know the full facts, but Mickelson apparently skipping 2 majors by choice might be an indicator.
Always felt his thing was going to be of more interest to non native US players as the PGA T schedule pretty much forces you to take up a US base, so was intrigued to see how many US natives would jump. 
I hadn't previously clicked the Presidents cup was a PGA T money spinner. Do wonder if behind closed doors the top guys having to play RC or PC every year was an issue for some.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2022)

Just looked at the results for Centurion
There are 19 names I’ve never heard of.

What happens when more people join
At the moment 3 x 3 balls on a shotgun limits your field to 48

Andy Ogletree (who?) Came last with +24, does he now drop off to make way for Patrick Reid or do they increase the format to 4 balls.

If you are at the bottom of LIV with a chance of being relegated with no cushion of the PGA tour to fall back on, seems a bit precarious to me


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just looked at the results for Centurion
There are 19 names I’ve never heard of.

What happens when more people join
At the moment 3 x 3 balls on a shotgun limits your field to 48

Andy Ogletree (who?) Came last with +24, does he now drop off to make way for Patrick Reid or do they increase the format to 4 balls.

If you are at the bottom of LIV with a chance of being relegated with no cushion of the PGA tour to fall back on, seems a bit precarious to me
		
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Many of the players weren't on the PGA Tour beforehand. Wouldn't be surprised if several 'lesser' players are contracted to receive cash even if they don't play.
There was a 15 year old amateur at Centurion,  not sure how that worked.
Suspect there isxan amount of 'playing it by ear ' as the sign ons matrialise.
If they are attached to keeping teams then it limits options I think, divisible by 4 up to 72.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just looked at the results for Centurion
There are 19 names I’ve never heard of.

What happens when more people join
At the moment 3 x 3 balls on a shotgun limits your field to 48

Andy Ogletree (who?) Came last with +24, does he now drop off to make way for Patrick Reid or do they increase the format to 4 balls.

If you are at the bottom of LIV with a chance of being relegated with no cushion of the PGA tour to fall back on, seems a bit precarious to me
		
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They could increase to 54 by adding 2 more 3 balls but the team thing would be busted 

They could increase to 60.. add 1 member to every team and increase to 4 balls in the main


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## Imurg (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Could you not say that about all sports man? Their vastly overpaid for what they do
		
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I do.......


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## PNWokingham (Jun 12, 2022)

i watched some on all three days. Good and bad. Commentary sucks as does the picture quality and some of the camera work. I quite like the team format and the shotgun start - means all playesr get same conditions and keeps it very live. Clearly some of the field are a litle out of their depth and nowhere near the overall quality of the main tours. Also a shame that future golf events on all "3" tours will have less of the best players in any field.


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## woofers (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Could you not say that about all sports man? Their vastly overpaid for what they do
		
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Not all sports people, but a lot. And not just sports people, “celebrities” of all sorts and some top business people. Not arguing about amounts of money here, just the irritation of using the term “earned” as opposed to “paid” which for a lot of people is more acurate.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

woofers said:



			Not all sports people, but a lot. And not just sports people, “celebrities” of all sorts and some top business people. Not arguing about amounts of money here, just the irritation of using the term “earned” as opposed to “paid” which for a lot of people is more acurate.
		
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That's why I used the term sportsman

You don't get very many overpaid sportswomen


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Andy Ogletree (who?) Came last with +24, does he now drop off to make way for Patrick Reid or do they increase the format to 4 balls.
		
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He won the US amateur in 2019 I think. In some ways these guys are more damaging than the Richard Blands / Phil Michelsons as they represent the future. If LIV are targeting them then the PGA tour has a problem in the next 3 to 5 years.

I suspect a lot of these talented amateurs who turn pro after college, Walker Cup, National titles, etc really struggle to get starts on the Korn Ferry tour due to their low categorisation. The LIV series gives them a number of starts and helps them grow. Now if they form a 2 tier structure with promotion / relegation between 2 X LIV leagues I think the PGA tour could be toast.

The PGA tour main source of funds is TV and they have to have a high number of top world ranking players in their events to avoid penalties - they must be really concerned as each top 50 player defects.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

How is the LIV series going to grow the game?..........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535947808381050881


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How is the LIV series going to grow the game?..........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535947808381050881

Click to expand...

Having a concert after an event. How very forward thinking. I’m amazed no one thought of that before.

You do know many of the people there were so because of the free tickets and only went to the venue after the golf had finished! But I bet that wasn’t reported.


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## fundy (Jun 12, 2022)

As Jesse J would say: Its all about the money, money, money......................


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Having a concert after an event. How very forward thinking. I’m amazed no one thought of that before.

You do know many of the people there were so because of the free tickets and only went to the venue after the golf had finished! But I bet that wasn’t reported.
		
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Do you think it will fail?


Edit.

Actually, do you think it will fail, and, do you want it to fail?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How is the LIV series going to grow the game?..........


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535947808381050881

Click to expand...

A concert 🤷‍♂️ 

And most there because it was free and went after the actual golf was finished


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you think it will fail?


Edit.

Actually, do you think it will fail, and, do you want it to fail?
		
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What would failure look like? It’s never going to be a commercial success. As soon as the Saudi regime believe it to have served a purpose they will pull the funding.
I suspect the novelty will wear off and people won’t watch.
If you think it’s about growing the game then you’re a little misguided imo
I’d quite like it to fail. It would show there is still a place in sport for principal!


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you think it will fail?


Edit.

Actually, do you think it will fail, and, do you want it to fail?
		
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I’ve no idea whether it will fail or not as I don’t know what LIVs objectives are. Maybe as the LIV cheerleader on here you could tell us what they are?

To be honest I’m just amused at you blindly pushing everything associated with this event like it has been a monumental success. 

Yes it was the first LIV event, but the quality of golf and overall product is second rate compared to the Canadian Open.


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## Backsticks (Jun 12, 2022)

Yes, it has long been the goal of Saudi Arabia to grow the game of golf world wide. The love their golf there, it is every mans game, and has deep roots in Saudi sport and cluture. Now that they have billions to put to the good of humanity, they see how much of the world has, unlike them, been deprived of the joy of golf. And they want to right that wrong. Spread the world of golf around the globe so that it is not the preserve of rich Saudis.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A concert 🤷‍♂️

And most there because it was free and went after the actual golf was finished
		
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@Bdill93 was there and when he arrived he said there were loads of people .. even if free that's still foot traffic.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

[


BiMGuy said:



			I’ve no idea whether it will fail or not as I don’t know what LIVs objectives are. Maybe as the LIV cheerleader on here you could tell us what they are?

To be honest I’m just amused at you blindly pushing everything associated with this event like it has been a monumental success.

Yes it was the first LIV event, but the quality of golf and overall product is second rate compared to the Canadian Open.
		
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There are better golfers in the Canadian Open, and some of the golf at Centurion was exceptionally good - i watched a lot of it, as you obviously have?


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## Beezerk (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Bdill93 was there and when he arrived he said there were loads of people .. even if free that's still foot traffic.
		
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You’re wasting your time mate.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			[


There are better golfers in the Canadian Open, and some of the golf at Centurion was exceptionally good - i watched a lot of it, as you obviously have?
		
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I did watch a bit of the LIV. The quality of golf wasn’t exceptionally good at all. It was quite poor. But given the field it wasn’t a surprise.

I particularly enjoyed watching Blandy miss a long putt when he was already 9 over.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jun 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This is well worth a watch.
Very good description of where we are currently at with the Liv Golf Tour and it's impact.







Click to expand...

Interesting perspective from an American point of view. Left me wondering:

Can the PGA tour prevent players being selected for the rest of the world in the President Cup?
If all these guys join the Asian Tour why would the masters not consider them as they consider Asian Tour members currently? You don't have to be a member of the PGA tour to play in the Masters (do you?).
What about those players who have exemptions - not mentioned.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2022)

Guys
Please respect others opinions, even if they differ from yours

Ta


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I did watch a bit of the LIV. The quality of golf wasn’t exceptionally good at all. It was quite poor. But given the field it wasn’t a surprise.

I particularly enjoyed watching Blandy miss a long putt when he was already 9 over.
		
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I said some of it was exceptionally good.

Blandy is in the US Open next week, I expect you'll be hoping he misses a load of putts over there as well?


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## rksquire (Jun 12, 2022)

I was interested in it before it started, feeling some of the golf criticism was unfair (the funding source being fair game), and in the end quite enjoyed it.  By Saturday the team element had become more interesting as I understood it better and can see some weeks how that will mean even guys not in contention will still be relevant - a birdie here and there could change things and therefore impact team standings and prizes.  The course wasn't easy.  Some of the golf was really good.  I thought the crowds were fine - but then I seen the Canadian Open and thought that's more like how it should be.

I liked the shotgun start, and the fact it all wraps up at the same time.  They managed to present a golf product that didn't include pictures of people walking their dog, surfing, wildlife, flowers, a bridge etc.  But I also thought, this might be problematic in the future - there is something dramatic about contenders playing treacherous holes coming down the stretch; in this format, someone on a good run may already have played the treacherous holes.

There was maybe more drama of the course - PGA Tours announcement followed by LIVs unveiling of new members.

Also, The Canadian Open crowd is quite boisterous aren't they?  Maybe they always are, but I wonder is there a siege type mentality coming in?  And, absolutely, Sky, the crowd and I'm sure the PGA Tour are hoping for a McIlroy or Thomas win.  But just looking at the top 53 players currently on the leaderboard (as a comparison to LIVs field) - 22 of the 53 I've no idea who they are, and that includes some with a chance of winning.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Bdill93 was there and when he arrived he said there were loads of people .. even if free that's still foot traffic.
		
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The crowds were nowhere near the level of the as an example the British Masters at both Woburn and the Grove.

People went to the Centurion as it was a freebie and I suspect most were already golf fans

Then later in the evening they had a concert which someone highlights as “growing the game” but they were mainly freebies once again and people who arrived after the golf 

So at the end of the day it’s prob not “grown the game” - it’s made a good number of golfers richer regardless of how they played and it was just 54 holes instead of 72. 

Did you drive to go and watch it ? 

There appears to be from a section this desire to make a short sharp format - it’s been tried with a few events and not worked , the players are only going to these events because they are being paid handsomely. At some point they will stop paying those vast amounts and it will prob end up a Euro Pro level event. 

The only way it moves forward successfully is if they get those cream of the game right now whose career is on the up , do that and people will notice the events more for the golfers as opposed to the money being paid


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I said some of it was exceptionally good.

Blandy is in the US Open next week, I expect you'll be hoping he misses a load of putts over there as well?
		
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🙄


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, it has long been the goal of Saudi Arabia to grow the game of golf world wide. The love their golf there, it is every mans game, and has deep roots in Saudi sport and cluture. Now that they have billions to put to the good of humanity, they see how much of the world has, unlike them, been deprived of the joy of golf. And they want to right that wrong. Spread the world of golf around the globe so that it is not the preserve of rich Saudis.
		
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Thinking about it. LIV have missed a trick . If they really wanted to grow the game, buy some legitimacy & cause some real morality shockwaves, they could have bought the womens tour, or put on an event similar to that in Sweden. I suspect this would have been unpalatable for the backers however, wonder why?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The crowds were nowhere near the level of the as an example the British Masters at both Woburn and the Grove.

People went to the Centurion as it was a freebie and I suspect most were already golf fans

Then later in the evening they had a concert which someone highlights as “growing the game” but they were mainly freebies once again and people who arrived after the golf

So at the end of the day it’s prob not “grown the game” - it’s made a good number of golfers richer regardless of how they played and it was just 54 holes instead of 72.

Did you drive to go and watch it ?

There appears to be from a section this desire to make a short sharp format - it’s been tried with a few events and not worked , the players are only going to these events because they are being paid handsomely. At some point they will stop paying those vast amounts and it will prob end up a Euro Pro level event.

The only way it moves forward successfully is if they get those cream of the game right now whose career is on the up , do that and people will notice the events more for the golfers as opposed to the money being paid
		
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No I didn't drive to watch it. I worked and had it on in the background , it was a good first attempt

Sky have offered freebies in the past.

As I have stated many times the Liv tour have said year one doesn't need to be a massive hit in terms of stars etc it just is a beta testing year. I'm sure they will (like any beta tested product) learn and change from feedback.

It was a lot better than most assumed 

It's also growing in terms of players day by day


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's also growing in terms of players day by day
		
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Attracting more golfing mercenaries doesn’t = growing the game.


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## Imurg (Jun 12, 2022)

The amount of cash they're dishing out is certainly growing....


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Thinking about it. LIV have missed a trick . If they really wanted to grow the game, buy some legitimacy & cause some real morality shockwaves, they could have bought the womens tour, or put on an event similar to that in Sweden. I suspect this would have been unpalatable for the backers however, wonder why?
		
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You mean like this...

https://aramcoteamseries.com/


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## JamesR (Jun 12, 2022)

I’ll certainly miss watching Paddy Reed’s short game masterclass each week on the PGA tour.
The guy is a magician on & around the green.


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## howbow88 (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve no idea whether it will fail or not as I don’t know what LIVs objectives are. Maybe as the LIV cheerleader on here you could tell us what they are?
		
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It's definitely to grow the game. Definitely.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean like this...

https://aramcoteamseries.com/

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Yep like that. But it’s building on a pre existing tour event in Saudi. If they really wanted to disrupt the world of golf they could have bankrolled the LET. 
I should work for their marketing dept, for a small fortune I’d show them how to sports wash their blood soaked image 👍subject to my own moral compass


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

The LIV series You Tube channel, has now had a total of 3 million views, and people scoffed when I said millions would watch it. ;-)

What are we going for by the end of the final event, 100 million views?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Yep like that. But it’s building on a pre existing tour event in Saudi. If they really wanted to disrupt the world of golf they could have bankrolled the LET.
I should work for their marketing dept, for a small fortune I’d show them how to sports wash their blood soaked image 👍subject to my own moral compass
		
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I think they approached the ladies tours to offer an invite to the LIV series, but they turned it down. Personally I'd love to see a few female golfers resign from their tours and join the LIV series.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The LIV series You Tube channel, has now had a total of 3 million views, and people scoffed when I said millions would watch it. ;-)

What are we going for by the end of the final event, 100 million views?
		
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I don’t know how to break this to you, best you sit down…..3 million views doesn’t mean 3 million people. You and Paul could have watched it 1.5 million each


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think they approached the ladies tours to offer an invite to the LIV series, but they turned it down. Personally I'd love to see a few female golfers resign from their tours and join the LIV series.
		
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They will do if the moneys right. They can’t drive to the events though👍


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I don’t know how to break this to you, best you sit down…..3 million views doesn’t mean 3 million people. You and Paul could have watched it 1.5 million each
		
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You see the wink mate, that means, I know it doesn't mean three million people .


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You see the wink mate, that means, I know it doesn't mean three million people .
		
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Apologies, didn’t think irony was on the state funded script 👍


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## pokerjoke (Jun 12, 2022)

Always amazes me the people that have no interest in watching it or entertaining it comment the most.
People who believe it won’t increase the interest in golf might has well live with their head buried in the sand.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Always amazes me the people that have no interest in watching it or entertaining it comment the most.
People who believe it won’t increase the interest in golf might has well live with their head buried in the sand.
		
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I watched it until I couldn’t anymore, it was unwatchable. It won’t increase the interest in golf in a positive way. It will increase column inches but to the detriment of the game.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 12, 2022)

Centurion also have Saudi backed ladies tour event coming up - that will be a lot of days in the peak of golf season that members are not able to use the course - not sure how that will go down?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			They will do if the moneys right. They can’t drive to the events though👍
		
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Swear they can drive over there now


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## pokerjoke (Jun 12, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Centurion also have Saudi backed ladies tour event coming up - that will be a lot of days in the peak of golf season that members are not able to use the course - not sure how that will go down?
		
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How do you think?
Seems a few members were happy recording for their social media platforms,probably growing the game.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Swear they can drive over there now
		
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They can, even though some of them still don't want to and didn't want the law changed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Centurion also have Saudi backed ladies tour event coming up - that will be a lot of days in the peak of golf season that members are not able to use the course - not sure how that will go down?
		
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Don’t think it matters to Centurion- always be the way the members came second after the clubhouse was built and there was a desire for events - it was the same when they did the 6’s

Did notice that the overall price fund for all the Aramco Events series ( 5 events ) is £5mil - about the same amount that Schwartzel won on his own


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## pokerjoke (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I watched it until I couldn’t anymore, it was unwatchable. It won’t increase the interest in golf in a positive way. It will increase column inches but to the detriment of the game.
		
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I actually watched it all the way.
It wasn’t a great ending to be honest,it would be hard to guess they were playing for 4m
Shame you didn’t watch it Schwartzels kid was screaming the place down .


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## pokerjoke (Jun 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don’t think it matters to Centurion- always be the way the members came second after the clubhouse was built and there was a desire for events - it was the same when they did the 6’s

Did notice that the overall price fund for all the Aramco Events series ( 5 events ) is £5mil - about the same amount that Schwartzel won on his own
		
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Christ another committee your on
Unbelievable how you get around


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Swear they can drive over there now
		
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 progress, they’ll be choosing what to wear & who to talk to next 👍


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

I’d scr


pokerjoke said:



			I actually watched it all the way.
It wasn’t a great ending to be honest,it would be hard to guess they were playing for 4m
Shame you didn’t watch it Schwartzels kid was screaming the place down .
		
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 I’d scream the place down if my dad won a jazillion quid !!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			progress, they’ll be choosing what to wear & who to talk to next 👍
		
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It's part of their culture buddy, it's the reason why thousands of British Muslim women don't drive, obey their husbands, and wear traditional dress.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

A s


Mel Smooth said:



			It's part of their culture buddy, it's the reason why thousands of British Muslim women don't drive, obey their husbands, and wear traditional dress.
		
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 A sub section of that culture. Excusing it is akin to excusing apartheid in South Africa. Don’t be an apologist, you must be better than that?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 12, 2022)

Our of interest, why are professional men golfers not permitted to wear shorts? I thought it must be some weird PGA rule and / or DP Tour rule. Hence, given LIV is trying to create a whole new spectacle in golf, they may do small things like permit shorts. However, they didn't.

Is it a tradition thing? Is it embedded into the R&A guidelines. Just always felt it was quite an odd requirement. Like when clubs demanded you wore ankle high socks if you wore shorts.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's part of their culture buddy, it's the reason why thousands of British Muslim women don't drive, obey their husbands, and wear traditional dress.
		
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It’s also part of their culture to execute people that say anything bad about their ruling class. I presume you think that’s ok too?

I really hope you don’t have a daughter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Our of interest, why are professional men golfers not permitted to wear shorts? I thought it must be some weird PGA rule and / or DP Tour rule. Hence, given LIV is trying to create a whole new spectacle in golf, they may do small things like permit shorts. However, they didn't.

Is it a tradition thing? Is it embedded into the R&A guidelines. Just always felt it was quite an odd requirement. Like when clubs demanded you wore ankle high socks if you wore shorts.
		
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Rules of the tour only - you can wear shorts in practice rounds etc but it’s the Tour requirement that no shorts are worn


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			A s
A sub section of that culture. Excusing it is akin to excusing apartheid in South Africa. Don’t be an apologist, you must be better than that?
		
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Don't give me the "you must be better than that line" mate. I grew up in West Yorskhire amongst the mills and towns that have become home for loads of immigrants and their descendants from Pakistan. Loads of them still live by traditional values, and I've no need to apologies whatsoever for pointing that out.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Don't give me the "you must be better than that line" mate. I grew up in West Yorskhire amongst the mills and towns that have become home for loads of immigrants and their descendants from Pakistan. Loads of them still live by traditional values, and I've no need to apologies whatsoever for pointing that out.
		
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You’ll be fully aware then of just how widespread domestic abuse is, or the number of under aged arranged marriages that take place, or forced abortions that take place if a pregnant woman is believed to be carrying a girl, or the number of girls who simply go missing after going abroad? 

But all of that is ok if it’s the traditional values of a particular group?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			You’ll be fully aware then of just how widespread domestic abuse is, or the number of under aged arranged marriages that take place, or forced abortions that take place if a pregnant woman is believed to be carrying a girl, or the number of girls who simply go missing after going abroad?

But all of that is ok if it’s the traditional values of a particular group?
		
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Lol. God loves a trier BiM.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 12, 2022)

Can we move away from culture differences please


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2022)

Big golf based businesses in competition will raise interest and feathers will fly as the self-righteous preach moralistic stance and fight change: what a surprise!


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## hovis (Jun 12, 2022)

I wonder how many people in this thread are using a devise made off the back of child labour?  Or wearing cloths made by a 10 year old boy on a bag of rice a week.   As long as its cheap though ey 😉


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## howbow88 (Jun 12, 2022)

Even if Saudi women don't care about driving, the fact that they didn't have a legal choice in the matter until a few years ago is pretty shocking. The quote from Norman recently about seeing women out at dinner as if it was some kind of amazing freedom, says all you need to know.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Fk me, you've got a prejudicial dislike for folk from West Yorkshire now.... Absolute classic.
		
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I’m from Bradford! 🤦‍♂️


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## hovis (Jun 12, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Even if Saudi women don't care about driving, the fact that they didn't have a legal choice in the matter until a few years ago is pretty shocking. The quote from Norman recently about seeing women out at dinner as if it was some kind of amazing freedom, says all you need to know.
		
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My issue is that your opinion (and many others) is just that "opinion".  Its not a fact that what they are doing is wrong.  It's a cultural difference.  maybe they think the uk shouldn't have their money because of the way our government treated the elderly during the pandemic.
Whilst I agree with your opinion you need to understand culture and differences.  If other nations don't agree then you simply vote with your feet.  I just don't like it when people get mad at people for not agreeing with their opinions.  Especially when most of us would chuck our gran under a bus for the money being offered out


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 12, 2022)

hovis said:



			I wonder how many people in this thread are using a devise made off the back of child labour?  Or wearing cloths made by a 10 year old boy on a bag of rice a week.   As long as its cheap though ey 😉
		
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Is it the same though ?

As consumers we don’t have much choice where a company makes their equipment. 

The players know exactly where the money is coming from and they do have a choice


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## hovis (Jun 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it the same though ?

As consumers we don’t have much choice where a company makes their equipment.

The players know exactly where the money is coming from and they do have a choice
		
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You can choose if you want a £2 shirt from a certain high street store or pay the extra for British made.
The point I'm trying to make is some people take the moral high ground on the saudi thing but sprint to the discount shop for cheap school uniforms.   Pick a side is what I'm trying to say

Or you could buy Nokia instead of that hwaiawa company (I can't spell it 😂).  Nokia probably buy Chinese parts too so I get your point


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, but you did confess to being a prick yourself, so it may still be true you have a prejudicial dislike to people from West Yorkshire 

Click to expand...

Fair point well made. I’m not prejudiced against anyone. I dislike almost everyone equally, apart from Richard heads. I dislike them more 😁


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Fair point well made. I’m not prejudiced against anyone. I dislike almost everyone equally, apart from Richard heads. I dislike them more 😁
		
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I'm living in Leeds. Don't hate me! 

😭🤣


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 12, 2022)

hovis said:



			You can choose if you want a £2 shirt from a certain high street store or pay the extra for British made.
The point I'm trying to make is some people take the moral high ground on the saudi thing but sprint to the discount shop for cheap school uniforms.   Pick a side is what I'm trying to say

Or you could buy Nokia instead of that hwaiawa company (I can't spell it 😂).  Nokia probably buy Chinese parts too so I get your point
		
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It's hard, especially if you're trying to be ethical with no money to buy the ethical alternatives. Given that there is a world of difference between "buying a shirt for £2" and accepting $200m from the Crown Prince of Saudis personal fund, especially when you've already earned $74m in prize money alone. 

I just can't comprehend what anyone does with that kind of money. Imagine the difference that $200m could make to some folks lives...


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## pokerjoke (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s also part of their culture to execute people that say anything bad about their ruling class. I presume you think that’s ok too?

I really hope you don’t have a daughter.
		
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Did you watch any of the Saudi Liv golf ?
If yes,why
If no,why?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2022)

All this whataboutary ... After yesterday does anyone think wow those Saudis are a bit of all right you know ..

Nope ..

Litterally just a golf tournament


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## larmen (Jun 12, 2022)

If you would organise a 3 day event, would you skip the Sunday? Or would you rather skip the Thursday?

For players it might be nice having a family Sunday. I just wonder if there missed out on larger viewing figures that way?


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## Backsticks (Jun 12, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Did you watch any of the Saudi Liv golf ?
If yes,why
If no,why?
		
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No. Because it wasnt a real golf tournament. Very low field quality (same reason that I dont normally watch the European tour). And the title is worthless. Canadian Open alternative is the genuine article.

But to be clear though, I have no issue on the moral point. If the worlds top golfers are all there, I will be watching it. Hopefully at that point, LIV will ditch the circus elements, and make it about world level individual competitive golf again. And on real TV, not a platform for skateboarding monkeys and hilarious clips of kids falling off a school play stage or whatever.


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## Imurg (Jun 12, 2022)

larmen said:



			If you would organise a 3 day event, would you skip the Sunday? Or would you rather skip the Thursday?

For players it might be nice having a family Sunday. I just wonder if there missed out on larger viewing figures that way?
		
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Possibly because DJ, Phil and a few others are due at the US Open for a practice round tomorrow....


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Did you watch any of the Saudi Liv golf ?
If yes,why
If no,why?
		
Click to expand...

Covered a few pages ago


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## Bazzatron (Jun 12, 2022)

Did we have people cheering on their favourite team and booing their rivals then or nah?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 12, 2022)

Enjoying the Canadian Open thus far. Some quality golf.

Watching this makes me realise that I'm not personally a fan of shotgun starts. I don't really buy the "we get to watch more golf with shotgun starts". In yesterday's final round, the footage generally focuses on the leading players. No one really cares about the players that are miles off, so we only need to see them if they do something genuinely spectacular. With a normal draw, same thing. It generally focuses on the last 2 or 3 groups. So, we have plenty of golf to watch pretty much to the end of the round anyway. 

What I like about normal starts is you get to really know the course better. You see early groups play signature holes. Maybe the 2nd is a driveable par 4. 12th an exciting par 5. 15th a tricky par 4 that can catch people out. You then look forward to the leading groups coming to these holes and seeing how those players get on. With shotgun start, the players are all over the course, and I struggle to get my head around what holes they are on, and what ones are coming up. Whether they have an easy or hard run of holes compared to others. 

And, from a practical point of view, shotgun start limits the field. Even if the top players in world filled every slot, you still remove the possibility of players just a bit further down the rankings having a good week and getting in the mix.


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## evemccc (Jun 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Other sports don't bang on about the money in the commentary. We don't hear in every game what Salah is earning per weak, or what bonus for goals City pays Debruyne, what the rugby team gets if they win the six nations, or what Nadal gets if he wins this match. We know they are well paid. But the sporting narrative is enough, without the financials.
But the money is all LIV has. As sport, it is a pauper. So they have to push this point all the time. NOT like other sports.
		
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Errr…yeah they do…if you follow cricket one of the first things reported is how much player XYZ went for in the IPL Auction

The IPL has totally changed cricket. IMO - on balance - in many ways not for the better, but, it’s impact over the rest of cricket is undeniable


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2022)

For those who were watching the RBC on Sky did they show the Nantz 'interview' with Jay Monahan?

Perhaps understandably, seemed a pretty well choreographed kicking of the recent events and further warning shots. Interesting times 🤔


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Yes it was the first LIV event, but the quality of golf and overall product is second rate compared to the Canadian Open.
		
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Hmmm comparing a 1st event to an established PGA Tour event is hardly fair. 
It won't be 2nd rate if more and more of the top players move across. 

I honestly think the next Portland event will see a vastly improved field. 

Liv will only be fully judged probably after all this seasons events or maybe even 2 seasons to see how the pro golfing map is looking..


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## BiMGuy (Jun 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Hmmm comparing a 1st event to an established PGA Tour event is hardly fair.
It won't be 2nd rate if more and more of the top players move across.

I honestly think the next Portland event will see a vastly improved field. 

Liv will only be fully judged probably after all this seasons events or maybe even 2 seasons to see how the pro golfing map is looking..
		
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They are going to need a lot more players to jump before the next event to get a vast improvement. 
Bryson is box office, but injured. Reed is decent but not exactly on top form and is as likeable as a dose of the clap, and Perez doesn’t improve the field much at all. 

How much have they spent so far? $4billion? I’d except a decent product from the off for that kind of investment. It’s a long long way from what is currently going on in Canada.


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## Leftitshort (Jun 12, 2022)

This whole conversation is academic. Look at the crowd in Canada. You won’t get that on the bone saw tour


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2022)

RBC is a good tournament. Next event is the same week as the John Deere, so will be interesting to compare further.


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## AussieKB (Jun 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. Because it wasnt a real golf tournament. Very low field quality (same reason that I dont normally watch the European tour). And the title is worthless. Canadian Open alternative is the genuine article.

But to be clear though, I have no issue on the moral point. If the worlds top golfers are all there, I will be watching it. Hopefully at that point, LIV will ditch the circus elements, and make it about world level individual competitive golf again. And on real TV, not a platform for skateboarding monkeys and hilarious clips of kids falling off a school play stage or whatever.
		
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Maybe if the Euro Team let the LIV players in it might be worth watching for you again.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The crowds were nowhere near the level of the as an example the British Masters at both Woburn and the Grove.

People went to the Centurion as it was a freebie and I suspect most were already golf fans

Then later in the evening they had a concert which someone highlights as “growing the game” but they were mainly freebies once again and people who arrived after the golf

So at the end of the day it’s prob not “grown the game” - it’s made a good number of golfers richer regardless of how they played and it was just 54 holes instead of 72.

Did you drive to go and watch it ?

There appears to be from a section this desire to make a short sharp format - it’s been tried with a few events and not worked , the players are only going to these events because they are being paid handsomely. At some point they will stop paying those vast amounts and it will prob end up a Euro Pro level event.

The only way it moves forward successfully is if they get those cream of the game right now whose career is on the up , do that and people will notice the events more for the golfers as opposed to the money being paid
		
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Didnt see anyone arriving after the golf finished! Not sure where you got that from but the car parks were emptying, not filling back up. I left before the show.. didnt even start till 9.15pm!!

Ive never attended a golf event before, this was my first and I am now highly likely to attend another event as the whole thing was first class.

Highly likely to purchase a ticket again for next year after such a good day on Saturday


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 13, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			This whole conversation is academic. Look at the crowd in Canada. You won’t get that on the bone saw tour
		
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Or the European Tour for that matter.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Didnt see anyone arriving after the golf finished! Not sure where you got that from but the car parks were emptying, not filling back up. I left before the show.. didnt even start till 9.15pm!!

Ive never attended a golf event before, this was my first and I am now highly likely to attend another event as the whole thing was first class.

Highly likely to purchase a ticket again for next year after such a good day on Saturday
		
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So it's almost like a grew the game?

Glad you enjoyed it

I loved my 2 trips to the british masters and the open was special


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## Bdill93 (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			So it's almost like a grew the game?

Glad you enjoyed it

I loved my 2 trips to the masters and the open was special
		
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Well Id happily pay £70+ for a ticket to any high level golf event in the future so Id say thats a success in drawing me in?

Youre a lucky man! How does someone even go about getting masters tickets!?!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well Id happily pay £70+ for a ticket to any high level golf event in the future so Id say thats a success in drawing me in?

Youre a lucky man! How does someone even go about getting masters tickets!?!
		
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I typed too quickly. BRITISH masters lol .. proper sounds a let down now... but i got a fist pump off poults before everyone turned on him


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## Bdill93 (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I typed too quickly. BRITISH masters lol .. proper sounds a let down now... but i got a fist pump off poults before everyone turned on him
		
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Not quite the same  Still a great event though

I got a fist bump off DJ on sat as he walked to his final hole! Its class!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Not quite the same  Still a great event though

I got a fist bump off DJ on sat as he walked to his final hole! Its class!
		
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I mean this was the first event. Obviously they will learn from bits 

I think the ticketing was stupid £20 most or free get the interest in 

I had tickets for the BMW at Wentworth that was £20 but covid got that cancelled that year .. good price I think


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I mean this was the first event. Obviously they will learn from bits

I think the ticketing was stupid £20 most or free get the interest in

I had tickets for the BMW at Wentworth that was £20 but covid got that cancelled that year .. good price I think
		
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I'm going to the Scottish Open this year. Plenty of big names will be there, £30 a ticket by the time you add booking fees in. That is great value and pitched about right I'd say.


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## Slab (Jun 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm going to the Scottish Open this year. Plenty of big names will be there, £30 a ticket by the time you add booking fees in. That is great value and pitched about right I'd say.
		
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Hope you enjoy. I heard they're giving away free tickets to under 12's (obviously to get the parents in) 
_(LIV might do well to consider that approach, I doubt there will be any accusations of having to give tickets away etc) _ 
It randomly irritates me that this is now a co-sanctioned event


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 13, 2022)

Slab said:



			Hope you enjoy. I heard they're giving away free tickets to under 12's (obviously to get the parents in)
_(LIV might do well to consider that approach, I doubt there will be any accusations of having to give tickets away etc) _
*It randomly irritates me that this is now a co-sanctioned event*

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What does this mean?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What does this mean?
		
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Means the PGA co host with the DP world tour 

Basically half the field with be pga stars 

Meaning half the DP world tour players get kicked out so they can fill the field 

No wonder the dp pros are considering Liv tour more viable ...


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe if the Euro Team let the LIV players in it might be worth watching for you again.
		
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Yes. I think that would make it worth watching, and a good quality second division.


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Means the PGA co host with the DP world tour

Basically half the field with be pga stars

Meaning half the DP world tour players get kicked out so they can fill the field

No wonder the dp pros are considering Liv tour more viable ...
		
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Which in only a temporary state of affairs though. No non PGA Tour golfers will make the grade LIV wants/needs. So they will be bumped back to the World Tour fairly rapidly.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Which in only a temporary state of affairs though. No non PGA Tour golfers will make the grade LIV wants/needs. So they will be bumped back to the World Tour fairly rapidly.
		
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Or the Liv tour expands 48 limit ATM

Two shot gun starts, field one out morning field 2 afternoon

Swap day 2

Day 3 go for leaders in afternoon

Plus it's 15 events next year they might want a roster of over 50 players


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## JamesR (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Means the PGA co host with the DP world tour

Basically half the field with be pga stars

Meaning half the DP world tour players get kicked out so they can fill the field

No wonder the dp pros are considering Liv tour more viable ...
		
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Will the lower ranked DP tour players get a game once the big stars of the PGA tour are in LIV?
I assume those that wouldn't make the co-sanctioned events won't make the LIV tour either


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

Their goal, and they are paying top riyal for it, is to have the best. Not to find ways to dilute the standard and make space for mediocrity.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Their goal, and they are paying top riyal for it, is to have the best. Not to find ways to dilute the standard and make space for mediocrity.
		
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Yet what they have is the equivalent of a few old pros playing Sunday league.


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Yet what they have is the equivalent of a few old pros playing Sunday league.
		
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True, true. They have a sort of corporate exhibition day with some big names. They dont have competitive sport unfortunately. As long as the bulk of the world top 50  jump to it, I will be happy enough. The move back to 4 rounds and no shotgun start and no concerts and no teams, will follow on.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Will the lower ranked DP tour players get a game once the big stars of the PGA tour are in LIV?
I assume those that wouldn't make the co-sanctioned events won't make the LIV tour either
		
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If the DP tour doesn't ban them they could fill in when needed I'm sure 

Going to be interesting


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## AussieKB (Jun 13, 2022)

About time the DP tour stopped being a feeder to tour to the PGA, start building for European future,
so by adding LIV players can only help, re gaining more sponsors etc.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			About time the DP tour stopped being a feeder to tour to the PGA, start building for European future,
so by adding LIV players can only help, re gaining more sponsors etc.
		
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The PGA just made it more expensive to get on tour by upping the entry fee q school ..


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## BiMGuy (Jun 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			About time the DP tour stopped being a feeder to tour to the PGA, start building for European future,
so by adding LIV players can only help, re gaining more sponsors etc.
		
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It’s been a feeder tour to the PGA for 30 years. How many of the signed LIV players would build a future for the DP World Tour?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Or the Liv tour expands 48 limit ATM

Two shot gun starts, field one out morning field 2 afternoon

Swap day 2

Day 3 go for leaders in afternoon

Plus it's 15 events next year they might want a roster of over 50 players
		
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Not sure if they did 2 shotgun starts each day, why bother having a shotgun start at all? 4.5 hours of golf becomes 9 hours of golf, and any argument that all players play in the same conditions goes out the window anyway.

Also, watching the Canadian Open, all the fans get to congregate around the 18th green at the end. This often provides a grandstand finish as the leaders come in and finish their round. It is doubtful you'd get the same atmosphere when players are finishing their rounds all over the course?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure if they did 2 shotgun starts each day, why bother having a shotgun start at all? 4.5 hours of golf becomes 9 hours of golf, and any argument that all players play in the same conditions goes out the window anyway.

Also, watching the Canadian Open, all the fans get to congregate around the 18th green at the end. This often provides a grandstand finish as the leaders come in and finish their round. It is doubtful you'd get the same atmosphere when players are finishing their rounds all over the course?
		
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But it did happen?  Leaders went off 1


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## Imurg (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But it did happen?  Leaders went off 1
		
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Who's to say the group going off the 3rd or 4th don't provide the winner.....?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But it did happen?  Leaders went off 1
		
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Yes. But did all the fans congregate around the 18th to watch Schwartzel win? If so, did all the other players finish to no fans?

The end of the Canadian Open had a buzzing atmosphere. The end of the LIV event was a little bland. I know I am only comparing 2 events, but a shotgun starts surely means the fans will be spread all over the course, and therefore less will be there to watch the winning putt.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 13, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Who's to say the group going off the 3rd or 4th don't provide the winner.....?
		
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Swango1980 said:



			Yes. But did all the fans congregate around the 18th to watch Schwartzel win? If so, did all the other players finish to no fans?

The end of the Canadian Open had a buzzing atmosphere. The end of the LIV event was a little bland. I know I am only comparing 2 events, but a shotgun starts surely means the fans will be spread all over the course, and therefore less will be there to watch the winning putt.
		
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To be fair, on the ground at LIV it was easy to find out who was leading and where they were on course if you wanted to go watch them. There were big screens all across the site keeping you up to date as a spectator.


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## garyinderry (Jun 13, 2022)

There was no need to be anywhere but watching charl as he was either going to win it or blow it.


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## 4LEX (Jun 13, 2022)

The PGA Tour was brilliant to watch last night, three of the best going head to head over a world class course and playing astonishing golf. Throw in Rose on 59 watch and it was the best advert they could've asked for.


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

4LEX said:



			The PGA Tour was brilliant to watch last night, three of the best going head to head over a world class course and playing astonishing golf. Throw in Rose on 59 watch and it was the best advert they could've asked for.
		
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Who won the team event though ?


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## sunshine (Jun 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Indeed, and when was that last set of accounts dated?

Even then, the tax avoidance status, the charity donations, and the salary of the commisioner should all be questioned, shouldn't they?

How many events were played in the year he waived some of his salary?
		
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Previously you stated monahan was taking $7m. What’s your source? Or did you just make that up?


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## Backsticks (Jun 13, 2022)

How much is Greg making ? Or, being already as rich as Croesus, he is doing it pro bono, because he just wants to spread the word of golf and give something back to the game ?


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## 4LEX (Jun 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who won the team event though ?
		
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No idea. The Breakfast Balls or the Hosel Rocketz? At least Ian Poulter made the weekend for a change though, excellent golf to finish at +5.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 13, 2022)

4LEX said:



			The PGA Tour was brilliant to watch last night, three of the best going head to head over a world class course and playing astonishing golf. Throw in Rose on 59 watch and it was the best advert they could've asked for.
		
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It's rare for an event to be that exciting though. Look at the masters that was over day one. Yesterday was s proper battle 

The PGA can't hope that every week that will happen


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## RRidges (Jun 13, 2022)

Canadian Open was a particularly good contest.
LIV hardly got a mention in my area, this side of the pond, except from Rory doing his 1-up on titles won. It'll probably feature more for the events un US though.
TV access could well be important for ongoing promotion, though You-Tube seemed to work fine for actual delivery. I suspect there'll be channels over here that would be interested in hosting the broadcasting for the next 3 events.
London was pretty much a prototype/learning exercise imo. But a success all the same - especially for Charl!


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. Literally, nobody.
		
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I think we’ve established that two people care deeply about the teams, and they both happen to post on this forum. Although no idea how genuine they are, is it enough for a fan club?


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s been a feeder tour to the PGA for 30 years. How many of the signed LIV players would build a future for the DP World Tour?
		
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It became a feeder tour because all the good players left for the MONEY....oh no must blame the Saudi's Greg Norman and maybe through in Donald Trump.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It became a feeder tour because all the good players left for the MONEY....oh no must blame the Saudi's Greg Norman and maybe through in Donald Trump.
		
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So because something disruptive happened before, it shouldn't matter it's happening again? 

That said it wouldn't necessarily surprise me to see the European Tour not ban anyone. They're in a tight spot with their PGA Tour relationship, but allowing banned PGA Tour players to play their events would be a massive plus. Hence the silence...


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			So because something disruptive happened before, it shouldn't matter it's happening again?

That said it wouldn't necessarily surprise me to see the European Tour not ban anyone. They're in a tight spot with their PGA Tour relationship, but allowing banned PGA Tour players to play their events would be a massive plus. Hence the silence...
		
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Can see the PGA putting pressure on the DP Tour to ban them, and I think the DP Tour will fold,
having LIV players in their field could only enhance them, will wait and see.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Can see the PGA putting pressure on the DP Tour to ban them, and I think the DP Tour will fold,
having LIV players in their field could only enhance them, will wait and see.
		
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I think it will depend on the wording of the contracts that players have signed with the DP tour. I read somewhere that for the PGA tour players have to agree not to play on a competing tour which I assume is why the PGA think that the bans can't be legally challenged. If the DP tour don't have the same or similar then I don't think they'll be able to ban players.

Would not banning players open them up to a legal challenge from players that don't qualify due to LIV tour players taking their places? If you were due to play in a tournament and had met the qualifying conditions you'd be pretty miffed to be told that a LIV tour player was taking your place.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Swear they can drive over there now
		
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Women are now allowed to drive and also play golf in Saudi, as long as they have permission from their husband or father. I’ve heard many carry a written permission slip which they can show if they’re pulled over. This is not a joke, that’s the society that LIV is promoting.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They can, even though some of them still don't want to and didn't want the law changed.
		
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Wow. So now you’ve moved up a gear and you’re supporting oppression of women.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Women are now allowed to drive and also play golf in Saudi, as long as they have permission from their husband or father. I’ve heard many carry a written permission slip which they can show if they’re pulled over. This is not a joke, that’s the society that LIV is promoting.
		
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Are they promoting this? I don't think, if LIV is successful, people in the UK will start to believe that women should only be able to drive if they have permission from the man in their lives. Do you think this is the purpose of LIV?

If anybodies cultural and political values are likely to change as a result of Saudi Arabia doing business with the west, I suspect it is Saudi Arabia that are likely to become more liberal. That is my thought anyway. But, it won't happen tomorrow. It won't happen next yearz even if McIlroy and all join LIV. It would be a gradual change that will probably happen beyond our lifetime.


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## Slab (Jun 14, 2022)

I have to admit, I have no idea what's 'in it' for Saudi Arabia by financing LIV golf

I mean what actually do they have to gain by doing it?


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Didnt see anyone arriving after the golf finished! Not sure where you got that from but the car parks were emptying, not filling back up. I left before the show.. didnt even start till 9.15pm!!

Ive never attended a golf event before, this was my first and I am now highly likely to attend another event as the whole thing was first class.

Highly likely to purchase a ticket again for next year after such a good day on Saturday
		
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Apart from the concert, the fan experience at LIV was exactly the same as any other tour event. I’m not knocking it, just saying that every tournament I’ve been to has had a golf simulator, putting games, bars, food etc. I think tournament golf is a great day out and my kids love it.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

Slab said:



			I have to admit, I have no idea what's 'in it' for Saudi Arabia by financing LIV golf

I mean what actually do they have to gain by doing it?
		
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Saudis are catching onto what the rest of that part of the world has known for a few years .. oil profits will eventually fall, not short term but long term 

Meaning they need another form of revenue for their country 

Saudi is a very rich country with low poverty but high unemployment, they are trying to attract buisnesses in hubs they are building 

They can litterally write off this golf money so long as it builds a revenue long term for the country


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## r0wly86 (Jun 14, 2022)

Slab said:



			I have to admit, I have no idea what's 'in it' for Saudi Arabia by financing LIV golf

I mean what actually do they have to gain by doing it?
		
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*"Sportswashing* is the practice of an individual, group, corporation, or government using sport to improve their tarnished reputation, through hosting a sporting event, the purchase or sponsorship of sporting teams, or by participation in the sport itself. At the international level, sportswashing has been used to direct attention away from a poor human rights record and corruption scandals within a government. While at the individual or corporate level sportswashing is used to cover up and direct attention away from said person's or company's vices, crimes, or scandals. Sportswashing is an example of reputation laundering."


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## r0wly86 (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It became a feeder tour because all the good players left for the MONEY....oh no must blame the Saudi's Greg Norman and maybe through in Donald Trump.
		
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Can you see the difference between going somewhere for more money, and going somewhere that is hosted by a repressive regime with an appalling human rights records for more money


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## SteveW86 (Jun 14, 2022)

Not sure this has been mentioned,but will the breakaway players (those banned from the PGA tour) have a knock on effect for the Netflix show they were filming. It wouldnt surprise me if the PGA didnt want any of those players (I think Poulter was definitely being filmed at some point) on the show. Though I am not sure if it was PGA tour exclusive.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



*"Sportswashing* is the practice of an individual, group, corporation, or government using sport to improve their tarnished reputation, through hosting a sporting event, the purchase or sponsorship of sporting teams, or by participation in the sport itself. At the international level, sportswashing has been used to direct attention away from a poor human rights record and corruption scandals within a government. While at the individual or corporate level sportswashing is used to cover up and direct attention away from said person's or company's vices, crimes, or scandals. Sportswashing is an example of reputation laundering."
		
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Same as when PGA went to China and dp went to Saudi or dp who own p&o sacked everyone 

Those in glass houses


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Can see the PGA putting pressure on the DP Tour to ban them, and I think the DP Tour will fold,
having LIV players in their field could only enhance them, will wait and see.
		
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Why will the DP Tour fold ? 

There was only about 7/8 players from the DP in the event ?


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## garyinderry (Jun 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Enjoying the Canadian Open thus far. Some quality golf.

Watching this makes me realise that I'm not personally a fan of shotgun starts. I don't really buy the "we get to watch more golf with shotgun starts". In yesterday's final round, the footage generally focuses on the leading players. No one really cares about the players that are miles off, so we only need to see them if they do something genuinely spectacular. With a normal draw, same thing. It generally focuses on the last 2 or 3 groups. So, we have plenty of golf to watch pretty much to the end of the round anyway.

What I like about normal starts is you get to really know the course better. You see early groups play signature holes. Maybe the 2nd is a driveable par 4. 12th an exciting par 5. 15th a tricky par 4 that can catch people out. You then look forward to the leading groups coming to these holes and seeing how those players get on. With shotgun start, the players are all over the course, and I struggle to get my head around what holes they are on, and what ones are coming up. Whether they have an easy or hard run of holes compared to others.

And, from a practical point of view, shotgun start limits the field. Even if the top players in world filled every slot, you still remove the possibility of players just a bit further down the rankings having a good week and getting in the mix.
		
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This post hits the mark on a lot of points for me. Outside of the other contentious issues, the actual format of the golf doesnt really work for me. 
I really dont want to see a package of semi decent golf shots from players who have hacked it up for 3 days as a golf tournament is wrapping up. Its basically a pile of no context golf shots. 
I want to watch the leaders move as they did on sunday in Canada from the 16th green to the 17th tee and see how they are reacting. I want to see the conversations with the caddies. I want to feel part of the moment as it builds. No one cares about as also ran making a putt at this stage.  The only real drama is at the business end. The team element at this stage of a tournament is only a distraction. 
Granted some week there will be more than one player able to win and it will have to jump about holes to keep us abreast of the action. This will be intresting to see when the time comes. 
Do I want the tried and tested method of showing golf thrown out for this ? Not really. Fine the way it was thanks. 

I watched Norman's speech after the event. He said that golf fans had been crying out for team events. I enjoy watching team events. There is plenty of them on offer. The pinnacle being the ryder cup. Do I want them shoehorned into a stroke play event?  No, I certainly do not.


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## Boomy (Jun 14, 2022)

Late to the party... (and before I start I am not a Liv cheerleader, I enjoy watching golf, mens, women, amateur and all) Well, I for one enjoyed the first Liv event and hope to see it grow and develop, ideally where the field of players and event becomes the talking point rather than just the money involved (although the PGA tour also seems to focus on the dollar bill and financial rewards so..) My thoughts:

Liv Event Pro's: 
*More golf coverage, more golf shots seen and some great camera angles (not Spieth missing a 3 footer repeated and over analysed 38 times in one session)
*Free to view and on youtube which will grow the game as the majority of youngsters watch as much as possible on youtube. They also have shorter attention spans so a shorter event time wise, and lots of action with a shotgun start is like to be more appealing. 
*No ad breaks every 3 minutes, you actually got to see a player, play a hole - wow.
*The team aspect - adds another dimension, which once fine tuned I think will add extra value to the viewing. Needs work but is a good starting point.
*Centurion looked a fab track - hoping to see lots of other new courses along the way.

Liv Event Con's:
*The commentary team weren't the best, I'd imagine they will settle into it and develop their rapport.
*The on screen scoreboard wasn't the clearest and easily finding a leaderboard online would help. I do like the modern F1 style of displaying names on screen but it needs to be clear to understand.
*The awards presentation at the end needs work, it was all out of sync and the team presentation was diluted down by their disorganisation, bit cringe at times and ended up being about money at the end - not needed. Keep it organised, simple and about the players/golf.
*Ticket pricing - why try to charge silly money at first events... fill it up for free and promote from within.

They could maybe do a shotgun start, and keep it to 3 days, but have two sessions on days 1 and 2 and a 54 player cut off after the 2 days. Day 1 and 2 shotgun start session 0700-1200 then 1300-1800, then top (maximum) 54 play the final day - that would put more pressure on the team aspect for as many of them to get through as possible to keep scoring.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Wow. So now you’ve moved up a gear and you’re supporting oppression of women.
		
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Can you back up that allegation with some sort of rationale please?


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## Boomy (Jun 14, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			This post hits the mark on a lot of points for me. Outside of the other contentious issues, the actual format of the golf doesnt really work for me.
I really dont want to see a package of semi decent golf shots from players who have hacked it up for 3 days as a golf tournament is wrapping up. Its basically a pile of no context golf shots.
I want to watch the leaders move as they did on sunday in Canada from the 16th green to the 17th tee and see how they are reacting. I want to see the conversations with the caddies. I want to feel part of the moment as it builds. No one cares about as also ran making a putt at this stage.  The only real drama is at the business end. The team element at this stage of a tournament is only a distraction.
Granted some week there will be more than one player able to win and it will have to jump about holes to keep us abreast of the action. This will be intresting to see when the time comes.
Do I want the tried and tested method of showing golf thrown out for this ? Not really. Fine the way it was thanks.

I watched Norman's speech after the event. He said that golf fans had been crying out for team events. I enjoy watching team events. There is plenty of them on offer. The pinnacle being the ryder cup. Do I want them shoehorned into a stroke play event?  No, I certainly do not.
		
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The problem with some of this is that if Rory had been 8 shots back, rather than tied or in the lead we would still have seen more of him playing that the actual leaders. How often is he 6 or 8 back with 3 to play and we are still seeing the majority of footage about him rather than the actual leader(s) contesting for the win. The coverage is usually dreadful via Sky where you barely see any shots, the majority are putts and repeats. It just happened to work out this weekend with Rory and JT in the lead (two poster boys) and Finau challenging of course. As I said on my post, I'm not a Liv cheerleader, I am a golf fan and really enjoy watching golf but the coverage we have had for many years is generally very poor (barring The Open and Masters which we generally do get better quality coverage with more golf seen) Thats the key for me, I personally want to see more golf when watching it. I think the team aspect needs work and could be a great dynamic of covered and promoted properly.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you back up that allegation with some sort of rationale please?
		
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Your assertion that some women don’t want to drive makes it ok for the government to prohibit all women from driving. 

Maybe you should start trying to answer some of the questions that have been asked of you on this thread.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.
		
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Please can you provide your source for this stat. Thanks.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Your assertion that some women don’t want to drive makes it ok for the government to prohibit all women from driving.

Maybe you should start trying to answer some of the questions that have been asked of you on this thread.
		
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The government don't prohibit all women from driving though do they? I was pointing out that some choose not to, and you make some ridiculous accusation that I'm supporting oppression of women??

Have a day off.


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## Boomy (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Please can you provide your source for this stat. Thanks.
		
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A TV report/story said a 6.5million dollar a year salary for him, plus bonuses. Also seen it on quite a few articles online if they are to be believed. There was breakdown of PGA finances on a report somewhere via one of the news channels I'll see if I can find it, quite an interesting read.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Boomy said:



			The problem with some of this is that if Rory had been 8 shots back, rather than tied or in the lead we would still have seen more of him playing that the actual leaders. How often is he 6 or 8 back with 3 to play and we are still seeing the majority of footage about him rather than the actual leader(s) contesting for the win. The coverage is usually dreadful via Sky where you barely see any shots, the majority are putts and repeats. It just happened to work out this weekend with Rory and JT in the lead (two poster boys) and Finau challenging of course. As I said on my post, I'm not a Liv cheerleader, I am a golf fan and really enjoy watching golf but the coverage we have had for many years is generally very poor (barring The Open and Masters which we generally do get better quality coverage with more golf seen) Thats the key for me, I personally want to see more golf when watching it. I think the team aspect needs work and could be a great dynamic of covered and promoted properly.
		
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I partly agree with this. The reason we often see footage of Rory on Sunday when he is out of contention is that this is typically when he plays the best golf of the week, shoots the lights out and secures a back door top 10 or top 5 finish. I think the tv producers are right to broadcast the best golf on show, however they don't do this at the expense of the leaders.

PGA Tour coverage is typically a little frustrating... too many ad breaks, over sentimentality and hype associated with anything made in America.


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## Boomy (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I partly agree with this. The reason we often see footage of Rory on Sunday when he is out of contention is that this is typically when he plays the best golf of the week, shoots the lights out and secures a back door top 10 or top 5 finish. I think the tv producers are right to broadcast the best golf on show, however they don't do this at the expense of the leaders.

PGA Tour coverage is typically a little frustrating... too many ad breaks, *over sentimentality and hype associated with anything made in America*.
		
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I partly agree in return, Rory can occasionally turn it on full power on the back 9 on a Sunday but even if he doesn't then we still see a lot of him (the same with Spieth as well) Agreed it is frustrating, we would only like to watch some consistent golf coverage and preferably non biassed.

The bit I've highlighted in bold explains the majority of the problems with the PGA tour and Liv (and anyone else for that matter) - the Americans like to shout loudest about themselves, their players, their courses and generally their everything (control, control) - they don't share well at all so the suggestion of a new kid on the block taking away some of their limelight - that's a no likey at all.


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Can you see the difference between going somewhere for more money, and going somewhere that is hosted by a repressive regime with an appalling human rights records for more money
		
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When I worked in England many years ago, some the English guys had been to Saudi to work, I do not recall one person ever saying that they were bad people with little morals, the main reason they went was for the money.

I think that is the case today for a lot of people, have a look at the workforce there now, plenty Aussies Kiwi's Brit's Asian people etc, all there for the money, I have no problem with that, why just pick on Golfers.


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will the DP Tour fold ?

There was only about 7/8 players from the DP in the event ?
		
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Not cease, but bow to the PGA wishes.....sorry I was not clearer.


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			When I worked in England many years ago, some the English guys had been to Saudi to work, I do not recall one person ever saying that they were bad people with little morals, the main reason they went was for the money.

I think that is the case today for a lot of people, have a look at the workforce there now, plenty Aussies Kiwi's Brit's Asian people etc, all there for the money, I have no problem with that, why just pick on Golfers.
		
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If the golfers admitted they were doing it for the cash there would be little argument. Martin Kaymer was very honest in his interview and as a result nobody is giving him any stick. I think what has irked a lot of people is all this nonsense about growing the game and innovation, while conventiently ignoring that the main motivation is a pile of cash.

Excerpt from Patrick Reed's announcement: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf"


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are they promoting this? I don't think, if LIV is successful, people in the UK will start to believe that women should only be able to drive if they have permission from the man in their lives. Do you think this is the purpose of LIV?
		
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Do you not understand the purpose of LIV? It is not a standalone profit making venture, it will make a massive loss intentionally. It is a long term PR exercise to soften the perception of Saudi Arabia in the western world (I don't believe the goal is to enforce Sharia law in the UK). This is known as sportswashing.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Do you not understand the purpose of LIV? It is not a standalone profit making venture, it will make a massive loss intentionally. It is a long term PR exercise to soften the perception of Saudi Arabia in the western world (I don't believe the goal is to enforce Sharia law in the UK). This is known as sportswashing.
		
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But if theyre allowed to go into every other sport I do not understand why golf has to be the sport to take the moral high ground?

I certainly think its a generational thing, but so many of my friends could not care less about all these arguments, all we care about is the entertainment on offer - we are not politicians.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But if theyre allowed to go into every other sport I do not understand why golf has to be the sport to take the moral high ground?

I certainly think its a generational thing, but so many of my friends could not care less about all these arguments, all we care about is the entertainment on offer - we are not politicians.
		
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I thought it was a loss leader to diversify their industry in anticipation of the oil running out? 

They've invested alot more in technology and computer gaming than they will in golf.  

Id expect similar soon from alot of countries in similar situation, Qatar, Dubai, etc etc


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

I've decided to start posting on this thread now the event is done. I've followed it but not read every post in full (@swango - you make good points but try and be a bit more concise ).

Some observations:
- Mel Smooth started off with a contrary point of view which really added balance and was very welcome. I liked his original contributions but his posts have descended into a bizarre and shameless mouthpiece for LIV and Saudi, a mix of propoganda and fake news.
- Is PaulJames really G1z1? Although one purports to be Scottish and one English, there are remarkable similarities in grammar and posting style. Can the mods check IP addresses?
- Why do some posters love laying in to LiverpoolPhil? I understand that some disagree with him, but as an example he stated he had turned down work in Saudi and I don't get it why some people questioned it and even denied it?
- Can we all just agree that this was an exhibition event to promote Saudi Arabia. The whole thing has been crass in the extreme and the narrative of growing the game is pure nonsense. Let's just be candid and then we can move on to discussing the actual golf.
- Not much chat about the actual golf, but this event has got golf on the front pages for a change so would be good to see the golfing authorities / industry (both old and new) taking advantage of it.


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## Beezerk (Jun 14, 2022)

I don’t mind heated debate but calling individuals out like that ^^^^ is crass and very poor taste imo.


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			If the golfers admitted they were doing it for the cash there would be little argument. Martin Kaymer was very honest in his interview and as a result nobody is giving him any stick. I think what has irked a lot of people is all this nonsense about growing the game and innovation, while conventiently ignoring that the main motivation is a pile of cash.

Excerpt from Patrick Reed's announcement: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf"
		
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Have seen many saying it is for financial security....


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## Boomy (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I've decided to start posting on this thread now the event is done. I've followed it but not read every post in full (@swango - you make good points but try and be a bit more concise ).

Some observations:
- Mel Smooth started off with a contrary point of view which really added balance and was very welcome. I liked his original contributions but his posts have descended into a bizarre and shameless mouthpiece for LIV and Saudi, a mix of propoganda and fake news.
- Is PaulJames really G1z1? Although one purports to be Scottish and one English, there are remarkable similarities in grammar and posting style. Can the mods check IP addresses?
- Why do some posters love laying in to LiverpoolPhil? I understand that some disagree with him, but as an example he stated he had turned down work in Saudi and I don't get it why some people questioned it and even denied it?
- Can we all just agree that this was an exhibition event to promote Saudi Arabia. The whole thing has been crass in the extreme and the narrative of growing the game is pure nonsense. Let's just be candid and then we can move on to discussing the actual golf.
- Not much chat about the actual golf, but this event has got golf on the front pages for a change so would be good to see the golfing authorities / industry (both old and new) taking advantage of it.
		
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I chatted about the golf and coverage (and ways it may/could improve) for me its all about the golf.

The only bit i really feel the need to respond to is around it being an exhibition event and crass to the extreme - is that not a weekly occurrence on the PGA tour events? You said yourself about the "over sentimentality and hype associated with anything made in America" The PGA tour wants to be number 1 and Liv wants to be number 1 - that is never going to play out well... it would be better for viewers/golfers/fans and everyone if people were able to work together to add value to the game. Which won't happen.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			When I worked in England many years ago, some the English guys had been to Saudi to work, I do not recall one person ever saying that they were bad people with little morals, the main reason they went was for the money.

I think that is the case today for a lot of people, have a look at the workforce there now, plenty Aussies Kiwi's Brit's Asian people etc, all there for the money, I have no problem with that, why just pick on Golfers.
		
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I absolutely do not agree that it okay to go for the money, if you make that decision you have decided the extra money is okay to endorse or help a despotic regime. That does not mean every Saudi is evil, but the government is. Likewise anyone who wanted to work for a Russian backed event now would be selling out their morals.

Basically this LIV tour has shown that a lot of professional sportsmen's morals are for sale, which is fine it is their choice, but a lot of the world will judge them for it


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## sweaty sock (Jun 14, 2022)

I just googled "sportswashing" and read a very informative wikipedia article.  I was guilty of supporting a number of teams, events, people and organisations guilty of it...

As a short list
Ineos cycling team
AC Milan
Athletico Mardid
Arsenal
Man City
Newcastle Utd
Nearly every F1 team and event, Williams and Jordan a surprise to me
Nearly every major football tournament in the last 20 years
Huge number of boxing events
Godolfin Stables
Tennis events
Golf events

Loads. 

Golf isnt even the tip of the iceberg, but well, I suppose you cant say its good to be the least worst. 

Having read the list can categorically say I have been influenced in my view of countries by sportswashing.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 14, 2022)

I would also add, anyone who thinks golfers knocking back a pay day would solve world hunger and bring peace to the middle east needs a bit of a shake.

Its clear theyre in it for the money, its a question wether a greater or lesser percentage of the pga money comes from any better sources, and the money would just go to other sports...


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

Who are the people screaming "sports washing" the loudest?



Of course, it's the PGA and the media that follow them. 

And setting up a question with Monahon about 9/11 right in the peak viewing slot, about a letter sent to the representatives of the LIV players - he should and could have just passed it on as a matter for them to deal with, but no, slow zoom, "I know families affected" etc. 
They don't miss an opportunity for some dirty tricks, I'll give them that.


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

Worth a read
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/fe...lf-needs-to-have-581286?eid=87&edate=20220614


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

BDC being pretty honest here...

Looks happy enough.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536614858942291970


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## Bdill93 (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			BDC being pretty honest here...

Looks happy enough.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536614858942291970

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I would be too if someone paid me 150 million to swap tours and have more holidays


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			BDC being pretty honest here...

Looks happy enough.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536614858942291970

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Surely anyone being given over £100mil is going to be happy 🤷‍♂️

He is pretty clear that it’s about gaining financial wealth for less effort


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## Springveldt (Jun 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I would be too if someone paid me 150 million to swap tours and have more holidays 

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Lots more money, more than anyone has made in a lifetime on the PGA Tour, even the guy with 82 wins hasn't made that much from golf alone. That's FU money they have just given him.

More money, less events, less days, poorer competition while the PGA is promoting less money, more events, more days and tougher competition to win that lower amount. If you are a professional golfer then it's a "no brainer" as they say. The Saudi's have ploughed money into loads of other sports, golfers shouldn't be getting harassed and shamed for taking it imho.


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## Slab (Jun 14, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



*"Sportswashing* is the practice of an individual, group, corporation, or government using sport to improve their tarnished reputation, through hosting a sporting event, the purchase or sponsorship of sporting teams, or by participation in the sport itself. At the international level, sportswashing has been used to direct attention away from a poor human rights record and corruption scandals within a government. While at the individual or corporate level sportswashing is used to cover up and direct attention away from said person's or company's vices, crimes, or scandals. Sportswashing is an example of reputation laundering."
		
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Probably the phrase I understand the least. I know what it says it means but I don’t see how its supposed to work. 
Why should they care what people think of them. They are already doing business globally with the people that matter to them, despite the way they run their country. That’ll just continue for the hubs they’re investing in, why wouldn’t it. its not as if its worse now than it was a generation ago  

Even on this forum no one has changed their opinion due to money pumped into LIV. What chance then that those who manage international and global investments will be swayed from one camp to the other by ongoing sponsorship of a golf event. You either will or won't do business with countries like that and there's clearly plenty that will

The end consumers just buy whatever’s on offer regardless of where it comes from. They & the other countries don’t need acceptance from the consumer, whether its oil or smartphones or anything else 

In short; Who is sportwashing supposed to work on?


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## Imurg (Jun 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Lots more money, more than anyone has made in a lifetime on the PGA Tour, even the guy with 82 wins hasn't made that much from golf alone. That's FU money they have just given him.

More money, less events, less days, poorer competition while the PGA is promoting less money, more events, more days and tougher competition to win that lower amount. If you are a professional golfer then it's a "no brainer" as they say. The Saudi's have ploughed money into loads of other sports, golfers shouldn't be getting harassed and shamed for taking it imho.
		
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As long as they admit that they're only really in it for the cash..fair play to Bryson and Kaymer and maybe a couple of others...
Let's be honest..if they weren't being paid the millions would any of them have been at Centurion last week..?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Lots more money, more than anyone has made in a lifetime on the PGA Tour, even the guy with 82 wins hasn't made that much from golf alone. That's FU money they have just given him.

More money, less events, less days, poorer competition while the PGA is promoting less money, more events, more days and tougher competition to win that lower amount. If you are a professional golfer then it's a "no brainer" as they say. The Saudi's have ploughed money into loads of other sports, golfers shouldn't be getting harassed and shamed for taking it imho.
		
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It’s only a no brainier if you’re only interested in collecting cash. 

Some of them have said they have enough already and are playing for glory. Which is easier to say when you are Rory or JT than someone struggling to make the cut every week. But then professional sport is not a participation even.


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## AussieKB (Jun 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			As long as they admit that they're only really in it for the cash..fair play to Bryson and Kaymer and maybe a couple of others...
Let's be honest..if they weren't being paid the millions would any of them have been at Centurion last week..?
		
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You can say they same about all who take appearance money....Tiger Rory etc....what's the difference ?


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## Springveldt (Jun 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s only a no brainier if you’re only interested in collecting cash.

Some of them have said they have enough already and are playing for glory. Which is easier to say when you are Rory or JT than someone struggling to make the cut every week. But then professional sport is not a participation even.
		
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Yeah, it's easy for Rory who's made probably around $100M in winnings alone on the course without his massive Nike deal etc. He's already got FU money, he can turn down whatever he wants.

Let's be honest, the vast majority are interested in collecting cash. When someone is offering you your career earnings or more to go play golf for them or stay on the tour and grind out 20+ events every year for the next 20 years it kinda is a no brainer.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			As long as they admit that they're only really in it for the cash..fair play to Bryson and Kaymer and maybe a couple of others...
Let's be honest..if they weren't being paid the millions would any of them have been at Centurion last week..?
		
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No they wouldnt

But would Rory, Thomas, Finau etc be in Canada playing golf if they werent being paid hansomely to do so? With the added bonus of fed ex points - which again means more money in the long term. 

Also probably not 

Change this argument to the Majors and it all changes though. Thats played for pride and to go down in history.


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## Springveldt (Jun 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			As long as they admit that they're only really in it for the cash..fair play to Bryson and Kaymer and maybe a couple of others...
Let's be honest..if they weren't being paid the millions would any of them have been at Centurion last week..?
		
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Of course they wouldn't have been there last week. We all know it's for the cash whether they say it or not. Doesn't really bother me what they come out with, it's not going to affect my life, they can say whatever they want but we know it's because they want the money.


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## BrianM (Jun 14, 2022)

My thoughts are people are looking to far into it, clearly about the money is why they are playing, but it is their job, what they do for a living.
Just because we love the game of golf, doesn’t mean some of these golfers do, they just want to earn as much as they can and get out, DJ probably a good example.
One things for sure if I got offered a 50k pay rise to effectively do the same job, I’d be away, I’d also be surprised if no one else would.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 14, 2022)

BrianM said:



			My thoughts are people are looking to far into it, clearly about the money is why they are playing, but it is their job, what they do for a living.
Just because we love the game of golf, doesn’t mean some of these golfers do, they just want to earn as much as they can and get out, DJ probably a good example.
*One things for sure if I got offered a 50k pay rise to effectively do the same job*, I’d be away, I’d also be surprised if no one else would.
		
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And one less working day!

Its a no brainer for me


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## Imurg (Jun 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			No they wouldnt

But would Rory, Thomas, Finau etc be in Canada playing golf if they werent being paid hansomely to do so? With the added bonus of fed ex points - which again means more money in the long term.

Also probably not

Change this argument to the Majors and it all changes though. Thats played for pride and to go down in history.
		
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They would because the PGA Tour is long established and that's where professional golfers play, alongside all the other Pro Tours...
The point is that it took many, many millions of dollars to assemble a pretty average field who would have been playing on those tours had the carrot not been dangled..
I don't really mind that they're chasing the money
I'd just like them to be honest about it.
Also the Canadian Open is considered to be one of the most significant titles outside of the Majors and WGCs..it predates the Masters by 30 years and there's an argument that it should have been a Major...the best in the world were playing there and not in Hemel.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			No they wouldnt

But would Rory, Thomas, Finau etc be in Canada playing golf if they werent being paid hansomely to do so? With the added bonus of fed ex points - which again means more money in the long term.

Also probably not

Change this argument to the Majors and it all changes though. Thats played for pride and to go down in history.
		
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Not sure that’s the case in regards the Canadian Open 

A good number of golfers looks to play the week before the major - some give it a mess , it also has the ranking points which opens up further doors - majors.  Wgc and of course Ryder Cup points 

All the tour events come with more than just money


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## woofers (Jun 14, 2022)

I think we are all agreed that, no matter what they say, how they dress it up, it is all about the money. End of. And for virtually everybody, if it was just about the money, that would be the case no matter what profession. But for some of us, it matters where the money is coming from and in what guise it is being delivered. Others don’t care, fair enough. 
Next, having been a member of a tour, an organisation, however imperfect, that has provided you with your current wealth, be it winnings, or appearance money, it is surely crass for you to expect that organisation to accept you when you have blatantly disregarded its conditions and rules. The choice is a simple one. Take the big money from the new guys, for just showing up, or stay with the established organisation for less money and potentially more prestige, but you can’t have both. Make your choice, shut up and get on with it (Poulter, Mickleson, etc).


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## Depreston (Jun 14, 2022)

the numbers are mind boggling if you had a 20 year career and the Liv tournament was still around as structured today ... Take Rory as an example he's not far off 300 starts which would be 20 years of 15 LIV events (thats the rumour of how many they'll have next year and going forward)

he's played 274 events with 21 wins and a further 80 top 10s

21 x 4mil = 84 million 

say an average of 500k for a top 10 = 40 mil 

then even say he finishes dead last in the other 174 events at 125k = 21.75 mil 

plus surely these one off payments will be expected every 4 year deal? how much would that cost? 

not even taking into account the team element either 

crazy like


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2022)

Depreston said:



			the numbers are mind boggling if you had a 20 year career and the Liv tournament was still around as structured today ... Take Rory as an example he's not far off 300 starts which would be 20 years of 15 LIV events (thats the rumour of how many they'll have next year and going forward)

he's played 274 events with 21 wins and a further 80 top 10s

21 x 4mil = 84 million

say an average of 500k for a top 10 = 40 mil

then even say he finishes dead last in the other 174 events at 125k = 21.75 mil

plus surely these one off payments will be expected every 4 year deal? how much would that cost?

not even taking into account the team element either

crazy like
		
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The money won’t be like this forever though. They are having to pay large sums just to get people to turn up to play in what are essentially exhibitions. 

They have had to rope in a load of unknowns that can’t even qualify for the KF and play a shotgun start just to make up a field. Then they dress it up as an exciting change of format, and call it a success. 

At some point I presume it will have to work commercially.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure that’s the case in regards the Canadian Open

A good number of golfers looks to play the week before the major - some give it a mess , it also has the ranking points which opens up further doors - majors.  Wgc and of course Ryder Cup points

All the tour events come with more than just money
		
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I did mention fed ex but yes sure world ranking points and various other points too. 

And fine, maybe not the Canadian Open but the point still has value  (clearly the Canadian is the Scottish open equivilant). 

I disagree with your point about all tour events though. The Rocket Mortgage classic has no more to offer than an event on the DP World tour like the Irish open.... except 1.5 million more for the players kitty and that is why top players will choose to play stateside almost entirely.

Again you can always find an exception - The AP Invitational pulls at the heartstrings paying homage to one of the greats and I do love the red cardigan tradition.

But The PGA tour has had no serious competition for so long that everyones just accepted it as the top tour. Theres no wonder the top players play there, there hasnt been anywhere else to play - until now!


I will state I really am not a PGA tour hater, I love watching all forms of pro golf - even the ladies tours if theyre on! 

I just agree that there actually is a market for a shorter format of 4 day stroke play golf and some very rich people are trying to make it happen.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

Interesting take from Gary Martin here, James Robinson has also done a review and they both seemed to have enjoyed it 

Interesting point from Sam Sharman who's in the vid, the caddies were handed a cheque to 10% of their players winnings direct from Liv, so the players don't rve have to deal with paying them. 
Certainly taking care of the finer details.


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## Depreston (Jun 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			The money won’t be like this forever though. They are having to pay large sums just to get people to turn up to play in what are essentially exhibitions.

They have had to rope in a load of unknowns that can’t even qualify for the KF and play a shotgun start just to make up a field. Then they dress it up as an exciting change of format, and call it a success.

At some point I presume it will have to work commercially.
		
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Yeah same but not often in sports do prize funds decrease


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## JamesR (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting take from Gary Martin here, James Robinson has also done a review and they both seemed to have enjoyed it

Interesting point from Sam Sharman who's in the vid, *the caddies were handed a cheque to 10% of their players winnings direct from Liv, so the players don't rve have to deal with paying them.*
Certainly taking care of the finer details.







Click to expand...

Probably a caveat from Mickleson's caddy


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I've decided to start posting on this thread now the event is done. I've followed it but not read every post in full (@swango - you make good points but try and be a bit more concise ).

Some observations:
- Mel Smooth started off with a contrary point of view which really added balance and was very welcome. I liked his original contributions but his posts have descended into a bizarre and shameless mouthpiece for LIV and Saudi, a mix of propoganda and fake news.
- Is PaulJames really G1z1? Although one purports to be Scottish and one English, there are remarkable similarities in grammar and posting style. Can the mods check IP addresses?
- Why do some posters love laying in to LiverpoolPhil? I understand that some disagree with him, but as an example he stated he had turned down work in Saudi and I don't get it why some people questioned it and even denied it?
- Can we all just agree that this was an exhibition event to promote Saudi Arabia. The whole thing has been crass in the extreme and the narrative of growing the game is pure nonsense. Let's just be candid and then we can move on to discussing the actual golf.
- Not much chat about the actual golf, but this event has got golf on the front pages for a change so would be good to see the golfing authorities / industry (both old and new) taking advantage of it.
		
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Feel free to check them .. if your happy to call me out for zero reason then I'm happy to back up that I'm from Havering ..  infact send me a cheque for £1000 to my home address I'll take a pic when it arrives


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## Swango1980 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Do you not understand the purpose of LIV? It is not a standalone profit making venture, it will make a massive loss intentionally. It is a long term PR exercise to soften the perception of Saudi Arabia in the western world (I don't believe the goal is to enforce Sharia law in the UK). This is known as sportswashing.
		
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I understand the concept, but they are not promoting the oppression of woman for us to follow along. They are promoting the nation so that they can diversify their economy in the long term. To do so, they will realise they will have many challenges along the way, including the west criticising their human rights. They can't afford to throw extortionate sums of money at things forever, at some point they'll want value for money. They'll find that will become easier if they do something about their poor global reputation on human rights. Whether they so, I don't know.


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## Springveldt (Jun 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting take from Gary Martin here, James Robinson has also done a review and they both seemed to have enjoyed it

Interesting point from Sam Sharman who's in the vid, the caddies were handed a cheque to 10% of their players winnings direct from Liv, so the players don't rve have to deal with paying them.
Certainly taking care of the finer details.







Click to expand...

So, did LIV pay an extra 10% on top for the caddies, or did they just pay the player 90%? Did it include the team money bonus as well? If so, Schwartzel's caddy just walked away with $475K this week, only the top 3 in the RBC Canadian Open made more money that him.


BiMGuy said:



			The money won’t be like this forever though. They are having to pay large sums just to get people to turn up to play in what are essentially exhibitions.

They have had to rope in a load of unknowns that can’t even qualify for the KF and play a shotgun start just to make up a field. Then they dress it up as an exciting change of format, and call it a success.

At some point I presume it will have to work commercially.
		
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I'm not sure it does though. The NLU guys were saying that it's rumoured that the budget is 5 or 6 billion for this. That is going to last quite a while and they could probably throw more at it if they wanted.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			So, did LIV pay an extra 10% on top for the caddies, or did they just pay the player 90%? Did it include the team money bonus as well? If so, Schwartzel's caddy just walked away with $475K this week, only the top 3 in the RBC Canadian Open made more money that him.

I'm not sure it does though. The NLU guys were saying that it's rumoured that the budget is 5 or 6 billion for this. That is going to last quite a while and they could probably throw more at it if they wanted.
		
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I'm not sure, but I'd guess the players got paid the prize money and the caddies payment was additional.

The caddies are getting well rewarded for sure, there's a few that have commented how good the service was for them at that first event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536752516175650816
Perfectly put 👏👏


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536752516175650816
Perfectly put 👏👏
		
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Because it suits your opinion? In that case yes it is perfectly put


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Because it suits your opinion? In that case yes it is perfectly put
		
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Do you even bother to just take a step back and listen to what he is saying - or is it just a case of barrelling in once again without even bothering to understand what he is saying


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you even bother to just take a step back and listen to what he is saying - or is it just a case of barrelling in once again without even bothering to understand what he is saying
		
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Same question to you with any of those interviews by say Bryson or kaymer or again doesn't that suit your narrative


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## woofers (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Because it suits your opinion? In that case yes it is perfectly put
		
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Well yes, we agree with what he’s (JR) saying, that’s why I’ve ‘liked it’. I guess it doesn’t suit your opinion, can you understand and leave it at that.
I don’t feel the need to ‘diss’ the others just because I don’t agree with them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Same question to you with any of those interviews by say Bryson or kaymer or again doesn't that suit your narrative
		
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Yes I understand exactly what BDC and Kaymer were saying - they were both clear as day in regards their motives for going to LIV

Maybe just take a step back for once


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I understand exactly what BDC and Kaymer were saying - they were both clear as day in regards their motives for going to LIV

Maybe just take a step back for once
		
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Jesus pot kettle black in almost every thread you post in

Those in glass houses Phil should stop smashing the windows ....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

woofers said:



			Well yes, we agree with what he’s (JR) saying, that’s why I’ve ‘liked it’. I guess it doesn’t suit your opinion, can you understand and leave it at that.
I don’t feel the need to ‘diss’ the others just because I don’t agree with them.
		
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When listening to JR you can prob just imagine it would be Seve saying the same sort of things


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## fundy (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Jesus pot kettle black in almost every thread you post in

Those in glass houses Phil should stop smashing the windows ....
		
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and again, oh the irony


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## Springveldt (Jun 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536752516175650816
Perfectly put 👏👏
		
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Really reasonable take on it from Rahm. Pretty easy to do though when you’ve earned $33M in prize money alone by the age of 27. I wonder how much his Callaway deal was worth?.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Really reasonable take on it from Rahm. Pretty easy to do though when you’ve earned $33M in prize money alone by the age of 27. I wonder how much his Callaway deal was worth?.
		
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As opposed to horsefield who won more finishing 5th this weekend than any of his 3 wins on the ET tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Really reasonable take on it from Rahm. Pretty easy to do though when you’ve earned $33M in prize money alone by the age of 27. I wonder how much his Callaway deal was worth?.
		
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I think that was also half his point as well - yep he is paid well from his prize money and sponsorship and can retire now if he wishes but he is just playing for the love of the game as opposed to the financial rewards offered. But he is mainly only interested in winning the big comps on the historic courses and doing it against the best in the game

But as he said he can see why some are using it to fund their retirement


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Feel free to check them .. if your happy to call me out for zero reason then I'm happy to back up that I'm from Havering ..  infact send me a cheque for £1000 to my home address I'll take a pic when it arrives
		
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Ok you’re from Havering, but is G1z1 your alter ego?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Ok you’re from Havering, but is G1z1 your alter ego?
		
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Keep fishing 🎣


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## JamesR (Jun 14, 2022)

I think someone’s off their meds


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Keep fishing 🎣
		
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It’s the identical grammar errors. You’re busted!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think someone’s off their meds
		
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Considering I'm a high functioning bi polar sufferer I could find that offensive...but I'll let it slide this time.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			It’s the identical grammar errors. You’re busted!
		
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Ask to have my IP checked happy to be proven wrong...


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## sunshine (Jun 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I understand the concept, but they are not promoting the oppression of woman for us to follow along. They are promoting the nation so that they can diversify their economy in the long term. To do so, they will realise they will have many challenges along the way, including the west criticising their human rights. They can't afford to throw extortionate sums of money at things forever, at some point they'll want value for money. They'll find that will become easier if they do something about their poor global reputation on human rights. Whether they so, I don't know.
		
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I understand where you’re coming from and I believe that is partly the rationale. Part a large part (today) is about diverting attention away from their human rights record. The acquisition of Newcastle is a perfect example: the Saudis will become popular in Newcastle if they bring success to the football club, many fans already see the new owners as better than Mike Ashley.


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## Depreston (Jun 14, 2022)

Why did he mention 400 million?

Is that what was on the table for him ?

Jesus


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 14, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Ok you’re from Havering, but is G1z1 your alter ego?
		
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Thou art barking up the wrong tree
Please desist 👍


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## IainP (Jun 14, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Why did he mention 400 million?

Is that what was on the table for him ?

Jesus
		
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Who?


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## SteveW86 (Jun 14, 2022)

Why is it the same people always end up ruining threads by being bellends incapable of reasoned discussion.


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## Imurg (Jun 15, 2022)

Early mutterings on the rumour mill is that the reason DPWT have been silent is because they're about to be bought out by the Saudis for a huge amount of money.....
Watch this space.....


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Early mutterings on the rumour mill is that the reason DPWT have been silent is because they're about to be bought out by the Saudis for a huge amount of money.....
Watch this space.....
		
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Was DP a front? I mean would they have sanctioned a direct sale to Saudis .. but sell to dp owned by the UAE who are allies of saudi 

Maybe this was a long term plan?

If this is true it's huge. They can get players to complete on the former ET who wouldn't otherwise have .. grow that tour up and solve the world ranking issue.


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## Imurg (Jun 15, 2022)

The fly in the ointment that can see is that they will still be chasing the top players who, in the main, are based in USA...
They don't mind a couple of weeks away from home a couple of times a year but if this happens and they take on existing tour events..Will the players want to travel that far..?
Could get interesting


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

Liked some players saying lets focus on the US Open this week, but it's a hot topic of conversation.

Some interesting views here...
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/fe...tour-the-battle-pro-golf-needs-to-have-581286


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## Swango1980 (Jun 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Early mutterings on the rumour mill is that the reason DPWT have been silent is because they're about to be bought out by the Saudis for a huge amount of money.....
Watch this space.....
		
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If the Saudi's bought the DP Tour, what would have been the point of LIV? Surely they'd just buy DP and then turn it into the global tour they are trying with LIV, throwing extortionate money at the players.


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

The other that didn't receive so much coverage was the Asian tour holding an event in the UK. Keith Pelley made reference to it.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 15, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But if theyre allowed to go into every other sport I do not understand why golf has to be the sport to take the moral high ground?
		
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If everyone in your golf group cheated during a round, would you? 





			I certainly think its a generational thing, but so many of my friends could not care less about all these arguments, all we care about is the entertainment on offer - we are not politicians.
		
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Entertainment is greater than ethics and some sense or right and wrong?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 15, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			If everyone in your golf group cheated during a round, would you?
		
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Not sure that was the point that was being made. He might be annoyed if he was singled out for cheating though, if everyone else in his golf group were allowed to get away with it  .


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## woofers (Jun 15, 2022)

I understand the silence from European / DP Tour, it was Pelley who took the tour to Saudi in the first place, and the sixes to Centurion.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			The other that didn't receive so much coverage was the Asian tour holding an event in the UK. Keith Pelley made reference to it.
		
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Keith Pelley and @Maninblack4612 😄. Both did decent reviews.


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

The last few weeks has had me reflecting on a lot of things. I found Rahm's comments on the Ryder Cup interesting.
In essence the Ryder Cup for many years was the European Tour vs. US PGA Tour - they are who hold the keys.
More recently it has felt more like PGA Tour vs. PGA Tour, with majority of the European guys only bit part contributors on genuine European events.
I like watching Rahm play golf, and he seems a decent guy - however I really view him as another US American these days. A far cry from Seve, Olazabal IMO.
Not his fault, he needed to follow the well trodden path to be successful, US college, US home, US wife etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The fly in the ointment that can see is that they will still be chasing the top players who, in the main, are based in USA...
They don't mind a couple of weeks away from home a couple of times a year but if this happens and they take on existing tour events..Will the players want to travel that far..?
Could get interesting
		
Click to expand...

It has the potential to be very messy 

Couple years back the ET had the chance to jump in with the Saudi’s but instead decided on a stronger partnership with PGA which helped The Scottish and Irish Opens gain big sponsers and they are now co sanctioned events

If Pelly decides to go back on that then it will get messy

You will certainly have a split between the two tours if that happens and it won’t be pretty 

What will happen to the events - will they just take over the ET and stick with the events the ET has or will it be a mix 

The biggest winners out of all this could be some players earning a lot of money


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## AussieKB (Jun 15, 2022)

Interesting listening to Cam Smith about the PGA holding an event in OZ before LIV do, seem to recall they had a World event in Melbourne and they failed to attract many Yanks, reason was they did not want to travel so far from the States.

Be interested to see what the US PGA players think about leaving home now that there is a challenger out there.


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## rksquire (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536752516175650816
Perfectly put 👏👏
		
Click to expand...

It's a well put point of view - _but it's not the only point of view._  Traditionalists have found a way to accept the multiple cricket formats on offer; golf doesn't have to be the same it's always been - it can change to increase its appeal.

This thread (and often the forum unfortunately) doesn't seem to generate reasonable discussion; opinions seem to be singular (it's either good or bad) in nature with opposing views dismissed or attacked rather than fairly discussed.  Maybe that's the world now, things (any thing) just seem to be polarizing.

I'm not (yet) a fan of LIV golf but I did like many aspects of it; I enjoyed the Canadian Open far more and I am a fan of the PGA Tour - but I don't see it as being a potential problem in the future enjoying both. 

I've watched a lot of the US Open Press Conferences - Rahm and McIlroy did well, were comfortable, not so much Phil & Brooks.  Morikawa's was actually excellent with regard to LIV questions - I find myself liking him more and more.  McIlroy fielded a question very well and it's an answer I hadn't thought of - basically "isn't this the same as leaving the ET and coming to the PGA for money?" - he answered by stating where the majors are and how you build your legacy as justification but also pointed out nothing is guaranteed (money or tournaments), you still have to earn it.  That's not the case currently with LIV.  He also said "I don't work for the PGA Tour, they work for me", which was funny, but also telling.


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## AussieKB (Jun 15, 2022)

rksquire said:



			It's a well put point of view - _but it's not the only point of view._  Traditionalists have found a way to accept the multiple cricket formats on offer; golf doesn't have to be the same it's always been - it can change to increase its appeal.

This thread (and often the forum unfortunately) doesn't seem to generate reasonable discussion; opinions seem to be singular (it's either good or bad) in nature with opposing views dismissed or attacked rather fairly discussed.  Maybe that's the world now, things (any thing) just seem to be polarizing.

I'm not (yet) a fan of LIV golf but I did like many aspects of it; I enjoyed the Canadian Open far more and I am a fan of the PGA Tour - but I don't see it as being a potential problem in the future enjoying both. 

I've watched a lot of the US Open Press Conferences - Rahm and McIlroy did well, were comfortable, not so much Phil & Brooks.  Morikawa's was actually excellent with regard to LIV questions - I find myself liking him more and more.  McIlroy fielded a question very well and it's an answer I hadn't thought of - basically "isn't this the same as leaving the ET and coming to the PGA for money?" - he answered by stating where the majors are and how you build your legacy as justification but also pointed out nothing is guaranteed (money or tournaments), you still have to earn it.  That's not the case currently with LIV.  He also said "I don't work for the PGA Tour, they work for me", which was funny, but also telling.
		
Click to expand...

I thought they were supposed to be Individual contractors, and as far as winning Majors, how many players really have the ability to win them, I know there is always the odd exception, but overall 20, 30 or 40 players.


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I thought they were supposed to be *Individual contractors*, and as far as winning Majors, how many players really have the ability to win them, I know there is always the odd exception, but overall 20, 30 or 40 players.
		
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They are. But when they sign a contract to play on a tour, they are bound by the rules of that tour.
No one has to sign up for the PGA tour, they could all play in SA, Australia, Asia, and/or Europe etc if they preferred. Or indeed, LIV.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The fly in the ointment that can see is that they will still be chasing the top players who, in the main, are based in USA...
They don't mind a couple of weeks away from home a couple of times a year but if this happens and they take on existing tour events..Will the players want to travel that far..?
Could get interesting
		
Click to expand...

I think it could be the end of the euro tour (which I could argue happened some years ago). We would be left with a PGA US tour.  And a DP/LIV World tour, with no attachment to europe.  Locations could be chosen to best fit as could prizes.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If the Saudi's bought the DP Tour, what would have been the point of LIV? Surely they'd just buy DP and then turn it into the global tour they are trying with LIV, throwing extortionate money at the players.
		
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Its already affiliated with Majors and OWGR...


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## Slab (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			They are. But when they sign a contract to play on a tour, they are bound by the rules of that tour.
*No one has to sign up for the PGA tour,* they could all play in SA, Australia, Asia, and/or Europe etc if they preferred. Or indeed, LIV.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure there's players who'd love to play on tours closer to home but to get OWGR points (for entry into non pgat events) they have to chase where the points are. And of the dozen or so tours that issue owgr points the majority of points (rightly or wrongly) are awarded to players on the pgat 
Not quite, but a bit of chicken and egg dilemma


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

Slab said:



			I'm sure there's players who'd love to play on tours closer to home but to get OWGR points (for entry into non pgat events) they have to chase where the points are. And of the dozen or so tours that issue owgr points the majority of points (rightly or wrongly) are awarded to players on the pgat
Not quite, but a bit of chicken and egg dilemma
		
Click to expand...

If the tour is so bad, as the Norman's of the world would have us believe, the US players could have signed contracts elsewhere, thus pushing up OWGR points elsewhere, and putting two fingers up to the tour. But instead they've always stuck with the PGA tour.
Perhaps that way change could have followed.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			If the tour is so bad, as the Norman's of the world would have us believe, the US players could have signed contracts elsewhere, thus pushing up OWGR points elsewhere, and putting two fingers up to the tour. But instead they've always stuck with the PGA tour.
Perhaps that way change could have followed.
		
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Which is more proof should it be needed that money has always been the driver....


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Which is more proof should it be needed that money has always been the driver....
		
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Of course it has


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## AussieKB (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			If the tour is so bad, as the Norman's of the world would have us believe, the US players could have signed contracts elsewhere, thus pushing up OWGR points elsewhere, and putting two fingers up to the tour. But instead they've always stuck with the PGA tour.
Perhaps that way change could have followed.
		
Click to expand...

And when have you seen the average yank travel.....took Arnie to go to the Open to open that door, Tiger will go if you pay him 1 Million
plus all the European players going to the States has hurt the ET, but with most of them going to college in the US now it is understandable that there allegence is with the US


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			And when have you seen the average yank travel.....took Arnie to go to the Open to open that door, Tiger will go if you pay him 1 Million
plus all the European players going to the States has hurt the ET, but with most of them going to college in the US now it is understandable that there allegence is with the US
		
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In other words, the players themselves are the problem with the PGA tour dominance, and not the tour in of itself.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			And when have you seen the average yank travel.....took Arnie to go to the Open to open that door, Tiger will go if you pay him 1 Million
plus all the European players going to the States has hurt the ET, but with most of them going to college in the US now it is understandable that there allegence is with the US
		
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Good job all the Aussie players stayed home to support the tour down under eah? Oh wait………


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## sweaty sock (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			In other words, the players themselves are the problem with the PGA tour dominance, and not the tour in of itself.
		
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As we saw on thursday, players will travel for money...  also see exhibit a:  saudi International, exhibit b: Zozo


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## AussieKB (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			In other words, the players themselves are the problem with the PGA tour dominance, and not the tour in of itself.
		
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If you are yank then I can see why they don't travel as there is no need, they have 3 of the 4 majors and until LIV, they had all the money tournaments, maybe have a trip to the UK for the Open take the wife/girlfriend do some tourist things and shopping as a holiday.

If one of the Major's could be moved to be played around the world to help promote/showcase the game that would be great, but there is NO CHANCE that the yanks will let one of them go.


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## AussieKB (Jun 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Good job all the Aussie players stayed home to support the tour down under eah? Oh wait………
		
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Funny thing is that the one person who supported the Aussie tour was Greg.....plus he grew it more than anyone.
Most now live in the US just like European players and are happy with that lifestyle.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 15, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Its already affiliated with Majors and OWGR...
		
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Exactly. So why throw loads of money at LIV, knowing they are about to take over an established tour? Surely they throw all their money at the established tour, rather than splitting it over that and some new golf tour and all the obstacles that go with it.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Exactly. So why throw loads of money at LIV, knowing they are about to take over an established tour? Surely they throw all their money at the established tour, rather than splitting it over that and some new golf tour and all the obstacles that go with it.
		
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I'd guess, that its easier to throw money around on your own tour than it is to work around the rules and regs in place on an established one?


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## GB72 (Jun 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Exactly. So why throw loads of money at LIV, knowing they are about to take over an established tour? Surely they throw all their money at the established tour, rather than splitting it over that and some new golf tour and all the obstacles that go with it.
		
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It would be interesting to see the reaction from both golfers and the PGA tour alike if LIV had gone down the route of massively bumping up the prize money and appearance fees on the European Tour.


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## D-S (Jun 15, 2022)

Just heard from Bob Bubka on Talksport that Brooks Koepka will be the next one to switch.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

D-S said:



			Just heard from Bob Bubka on Talksport that Brooks Koepka will be the next one to switch.
		
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They were saying on the Rick shiels podcast that no offence to the top 20 but Liv is getting the personalities in golf. Like apart from JT And rahm personality wise the top 20 is pretty bland .. best golfers ofc 

Koepka is a good addition

The next 6 months will be interesting to follow


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

I suspect they've all been sounded out and obscene amounts banded, but some have been less willing to engage than others


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			I suspect they've all been sounded out and obscene amounts banded, but some have been less willing to engage than others
		
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Rory and rahm have both been vocally against it. However both left a guy bit in their statements 

They want to play against the best players 

At what point does it become that Liv have the better players and forces their hand to join ...I'd hope by then the PGA would have got past it..unsuspended everyone and it is back to normal with 8 events that are bit different on the calendar


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537069203416571911
Will be a bit a kick for the LiV tour

The two main tours becoming more together


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## evemccc (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537069203416571911
Will be a bit a kick for the LiV tour

The two main tours becoming more together
		
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If they do ‘see off’ the LIV tour (and even if they don’t), if the DP World ties itself closer to the PGA Tour, you can be sure that in a couple of years the DP World Tour will assume even lesser authority, prestige, power and status than it has today


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

Interesting! Guess the key phrase is 'negotiating'. It's a significant moment for Mr Pelley. Does feel like snippets are coming out suggesting several possible outcomes  - perhaps a bit of playing one v the other.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Interesting! Guess the key phrase is 'negotiating'. It's a significant moment for Mr Pelley. Does feel like snippets are coming out suggesting several possible outcomes  - perhaps a bit of playing one v the other.
		
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If agreed at board level, it would then need to be cleared by 75% of the PGA Tour membership

Will they get 75% to agree? Many already had head turned and others might want options open

Plus what's in it for them .... Like will they have to play on that tour say 5 events


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If they do ‘see off’ the LIV tour (and even if they don’t), if the DP World ties itself closer to the PGA Tour, you can be sure that in a couple of years the DP World Tour will assume even lesser authority, prestige, power and status than it has today
		
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That is definitely the risk for DP World Tour.
Recent events means probably nothing can surprise any more, but hard to envisage how something with such deep pockets can be 'seen off'. We don't know full details, but indications are some of these players are signing 4 year deals.
The soap continues...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If they do ‘see off’ the LIV tour (and even if they don’t), if the DP World ties itself closer to the PGA Tour, you can be sure that in a couple of years the DP World Tour will assume even lesser authority, prestige, power and status than it has today
		
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Why will it ?

Due to recent work the work joining more with the PGA Tour has allowed the co sanction of events including the Scottish Open and that’s what they are looking more into - the ET still needs to be there for the progression for European golfers as such and it fills a nice gap there. It will never be as powerful as the PGA tour but working together will certainly enhance it


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will it ?

Due to recent work the work joining more with the PGA Tour has allowed the co sanction of events including the Scottish Open and that’s what they are looking more into - the ET still needs to be there for the progression for European golfers as such and it fills a nice gap there. It will never be as powerful as the PGA tour but working together will certainly enhance it
		
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There are a lot of lower level dp world pros twiddling their thumbs this summer unhappy with this decision.

They would be teeing up at these events normally but due to co hosting the PGA gets half the field with its stars and now they don't get to play / make their living. 

At their level that's money to enable another year competing rather than the ability to pick and choose when they play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There are a lot of lower level dp world pros twiddling their thumbs this summer unhappy with this decision.

They would be teeing up at these events normally but due to co hosting the PGA gets half the field with its stars and now they don't get to play / make their living.

At their level that's money to enable another year competing rather than the ability to pick and choose when they play.
		
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So they can’t win then can they ? 

An event to get the biggest and best playing in the UK and now it’s all about the lower players 🤷‍♂️

The money is only that level because of the players playing and the ranking points that will come with it 

It’s the sort of event that will showcase the best in the game - are you just opposed to everything 🤷‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So they can’t win then can they ?

An event to get the biggest and best playing in the UK and now it’s all about the lower players 🤷‍♂️

The money is only that level because of the players playing and the ranking points that will come with it

It’s the sort of event that will showcase the best in the game - are you just opposed to everything 🤷‍♂️
		
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The lower players still need to make a living. The better players play on the PGA and get more money to do so and earn their prizes 

All these moves are making it harder to make it.

Then their is the kornferry tour upping the entry fee to 6k

So what if they can't win? It's not all about winning. It's their job to play. Winning is a bonus 

Look at finau 

How long did he go without a win? But he earned his living 

If you stop people coming through ie by upping entry fees and taking away events you could push out future talent from making it.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 15, 2022)

Rahm spoke very well. 

Many LIVERS have said "it's a business decision" or "this is my job/business". It's clear they see the game somewhat differently. They're entitled to do so but they're clearly not the same kids who presumably fell in love with the *game* and and not the business/money. To me that's pretty sad, especially as many of them are free to enjoy playing without worrying about the financial aspect.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The lower players still need to make a living. The better players play on the PGA and get more money to do so and earn their prizes

All these moves are making it harder to make it.

Then their is the kornferry tour upping the entry fee to 6k

So what if they can't win? It's not all about winning. It's their job to play. Winning is a bonus

Look at finau

How long did he go without a win? But he earned his living

If you stop people coming through ie by upping entry fees and taking away events you could push out future talent from making it.
		
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The people who will miss out will be the players will the lowest exemptions - the ones who will play the smaller comps , that’s been the same way for years , the same players miss out at the PGA or even past Scottish Opens . And those missing out then go on and play on the Challenge Tour for a competition- that’s nothing new and been happening for years. 

If they want to play in the bigger events and earn the big money and ranking points then they need to perform when they get the chance which will give them entry into these events 

Not sure why you started going on about wins 🤷‍♂

There is always the ability for the players to progress through the tours and the chance is there for anyone to grab providing the prove it on the other he course 

Enhancing the Scottish Open isn’t going to harm the young talent - if anything it should give them something to aim towards


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537069203416571911
Will be a bit a kick for the LiV tour

The two main tours becoming more together
		
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Interesting to see what this might involve, presumably players having more access to PGA/DP tournaments?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The people who will miss out will be the players will the lowest exemptions - the ones who will play the smaller comps , that’s been the same way for years , the same players miss out at the PGA or even past Scottish Opens . And those missing out then go on and play on the Challenge Tour for a competition- that’s nothing new and been happening for years.

If they want to play in the bigger events and earn the big money and ranking points then they need to perform when they get the chance which will give them entry into these events

Not sure why you started going on about wins 🤷‍♂

There is always the ability for the players to progress through the tours and the chance is there for anyone to grab providing the prove it on the other he course

Enhancing the Scottish Open isn’t going to harm the young talent - if anything it should give them something to aim towards
		
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In your opinion.


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The lower players still need to make a living. The better players play on the PGA and get more money to do so and earn their prizes 

All these moves are making it harder to make it.

Then their is the kornferry tour upping the entry fee to 6k

So what if they can't win? It's not all about winning. It's their job to play. Winning is a bonus 

Look at finau 

How long did he go without a win? But he earned his living 

If you stop people coming through ie by upping entry fees and taking away events you could push out future talent from making it.
		
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In your opinion


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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Yes his opinion
Respect it, challenge it if you want, but it is a valid opinion,


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes his opinion
Respect it, challenge it if you want, but it is a valid opinion,
		
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Which at the same time My opinion should be respected and it's also valid . Works both ways.

I don't understand how whatever the situation the PGA tour come up smelling of roses and can do no wrong.

Over the weekend the Liv tour paid caddies expenses which was a fantastic move and something so minor that the PGA could do in its mega money making system to make it easier for those struggling but fails to do so. Yet nobody seems to care about it 

I still stand by my opinion that if the PGA tour either changed or accepted the Liv tour to co excist and have players playing in both there would be more than enough share of the pie for all parties 

But the PGA don't want to share. They imo ofc appear weak in their decision to suspend players


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			In your opinion.
		
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It’s also factually correct apart from the last sentence which is my opinion 

Each tour have their events which are heavily loaded and during those events the lower ranked players move down and play on the challenge tour - same in the PGA , surely you have seen that over the years 


pauljames87 said:



			Which at the same time My opinion should be respected and it's also valid . Works both ways.

I don't understand how whatever the situation the PGA tour come up smelling of roses and can do no wrong.

Over the weekend the Liv tour paid caddies expenses which was a fantastic move and something so minor that the PGA could do in its mega money making system to make it easier for those struggling but fails to do so. Yet nobody seems to care about it

I still stand by my opinion that if the PGA tour either changed or accepted the Liv tour to co excist and have players playing in both there would be more than enough share of the pie for all parties

But the PGA don't want to share. They imo ofc appear weak in their decision to suspend players
		
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I don’t recall anyone ever saying the PGA Tour is perfect , no tour will satisfy everyone 

And paying caddies - again that’s just all about the money but the tours don’t employ the caddies , that’s the players 

Let’s be honest the LIV Tour doesn’t want to “share” - it wants the top players hence the offers of hundreds of millions and huge prize funds and when the likes of BDC arrive guess who gets shifted out - those lower level players that you were concerned about


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## fenwayrich (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which at the same time My opinion should be respected and it's also valid . Works both ways.

I don't understand how whatever the situation the PGA tour come up smelling of roses and can do no wrong.

Over the weekend the Liv tour paid caddies expenses which was a fantastic move and something so minor that the PGA could do in its mega money making system to make it easier for those struggling but fails to do so. Yet nobody seems to care about it

I still stand by my opinion that if the PGA tour either changed or accepted the Liv tour to co excist and have players playing in both there would be more than enough share of the pie for all parties

But the PGA don't want to share. They imo ofc appear weak in their decision to suspend players
		
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Why sbould the PGA tour pay caddies? Caddies are employed by the golfers who are self employed individuals. In every profession I know a self employed person has to fund his expenses, which are offsettable against tax. An accountant doesn't ask the person whose books he/she/ is preparing to pay for professional subscriptions or secretarial support. Those expenses are paid for out of the income generated. If accountants are useless and lose clients, they make a LOSS. It is the same for all self employed professions.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s also factually correct apart from the last sentence which is my opinion

Each tour have their events which are heavily loaded and during those events the lower ranked players move down and play on the challenge tour - same in the PGA , surely you have seen that over the years


I don’t recall anyone ever saying the PGA Tour is perfect , no tour will satisfy everyone

And paying caddies - again that’s just all about the money but the tours don’t employ the caddies , that’s the players

Let’s be honest the LIV Tour doesn’t want to “share” - it wants the top players hence the offers of hundreds of millions and huge prize funds and when the likes of BDC arrive guess who gets shifted out - those lower level players that you were concerned about
		
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The little player that could possibly be shafted out will have made more money last weekend to make up for it. I'm sure they will have factored that into their decision 

Sam horsefield made more than any of his wins finishing 5th, that will put him on good footing.

Last place could drop out and still will be steading their ship.

Covering the expenses of the caddies was a nice touch and I think the PGA could easily follow suit.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 15, 2022)

Ffs
Agree to disagree and move on, 
If this thread deteriorates someone is in for a slap


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			Why sbould the PGA tour pay caddies expenses? Caddies are employed by the golfers who are self employed individuals. In every profession I know a self employed person has to fund his expenses, which are offsettable against tax. An accountant doesn't ask the person whose books he/she/her is preparing to pay for his professional subscriptions or secretarial support. Those expenses are paid for out of the income generated. If accountants are useless and lose clients, they make a LOSS. It is the same for all self employed professions.
		
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If that player fails to make the cut they have to cover their costs and the caddies putting strain on their finances 

If it was covered by the tour at least if a player goes through bad form they know the caddy would still be not out of pocket and they could carry on for longer without having to think about not entering as can't afford.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 15, 2022)

Why were there no cries about how terrible the PGA Tour is before the Saudis started handing out $$$$?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why were there no cries about how terrible the PGA Tour is before the Saudis started handing out $$$$?
		
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Because the hypocrisy of the PGA wasn't being highlighted by them trying to shoot down Saudi tour for things they do themsleves ie take dirty money


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

Treatment of caddies has long since been a topic of debate on the PGA tour.
Food, accommodation etc


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## BiMGuy (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Treatment of caddies has long since been a topic of debate on the PGA tour.
Food, accommodation etc
		
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Maybe as independent contractors the caddies need to negotiate a better deal for themselves 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Maybe as independent contractors the caddies need to negotiate a better deal for themselves 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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Assume they aren't banned from the tour?


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Maybe as independent contractors the caddies need to negotiate a better deal for themselves 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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Indeed. That is their prerogative.
Bones sacked Mickleson because he didn’t pay him.
Others have moved on when their player wasn’t winning/successful.
But it’s the player and not the tour which is responsible for paying the caddy.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Indeed. That is their prerogative.
Bones sacked Mickleson because he didn’t pay him.
Others have moved on when their player wasn’t winning/successful.
But it’s the player and not the tour which is responsible for paying the caddy.
		
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However is that because "it's how it's always been" or has it been looked at to and decided that's the best way or has it been overlooked?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Indeed. That is their prerogative.
Bones sacked Mickleson because he didn’t pay him.
Others have moved on when their player wasn’t winning/successful.
But it’s the player and not the tour which is responsible for paying the caddy.
		
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I know.


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			However is that because "it's how it's always been" or has it been looked at to and decided that's the best way or has it been overlooked?
		
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I couldn’t give a crap


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## Backsticks (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Treatment of caddies has long since been a topic of debate on the PGA tour.
Food, accommodation etc
		
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It may be unpopular, but I do think caddies should be given food. Everyone has to eat.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It may be unpopular, but I do think caddies should be given food. Everyone has to eat.
		
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Do the players feed themsleves or is their food provided for them ?


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## JamesR (Jun 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It may be unpopular, but I do think caddies should be given food. Everyone has to eat.
		
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My employer doesn’t give me food.
why is a caddy different?

They tie there own success to their player.
If they want better they could always get a more successful bag.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

JamesR said:



			My employer doesn’t give me food.
why is a caddy different?

They tie there own success to their player.
If they want better they could always get a more successful bag.
		
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Their are many professions that require workers to be away from home to provide food and board plus cover travel.

Majority of professions will cover these expenses 

If you go to a fixed place of work they usually dont provide these.

As a rule of thumb.


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why were there no cries about how terrible the PGA Tour is before the Saudis started handing out $$$$?
		
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I have zero interest in joining the head butting that seems to keep affecting this thread, but thought would try to add to this.
I certainly wouldn't use the term 'terrible', but I'd say the Tour has had its critics in every decade since the 70s.
I think in many ways it is to be admired from a business sense, they have done very well - many would say at the expense of other tours.
One massive historical factor has been their tax exempt status  - plenty on the 'net about that 

https://www.realclearmarkets.com/ar...ng_that_the_pga_tour_is_a_charity_808930.html

https://www.espn.co.uk/espn/otl/sto...lp-fuel-giving-which-falls-industry-standards

I'm probably like many others in having come to accept the golf 'world order', and the convenience of the vast majority of top players on the Tour - with an often helpfully convenient tv viewing schedule for those in the UK. Status quo didn’t seem a bad place.

To be extremely clear, I am in no way trying to suggest this new thing is 'better'.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2022)

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news...ral-event-but-not-in-the-way-you-might-think/

Balanced view, I agree that no matter what the majors will get even more special now.


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## sunshine (Jun 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Their are many professions that require workers to be away from home to provide food and board plus cover travel.

Majority of professions will cover these expenses 

If you go to a fixed place of work they usually dont provide these.

As a rule of thumb.
		
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This is a fair observation, but it’s the employer who covers the travel and subsistence costs of its employees. 

The caddies are employed by their pro, not the tour.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The little player that could possibly be shafted out will have made more money last weekend to make up for it. I'm sure they will have factored that into their decision

Sam horsefield made more than any of his wins finishing 5th, that will put him on good footing.

Last place could drop out and still will be steading their ship.

Covering the expenses of the caddies was a nice touch and I think the PGA could easily follow suit.
		
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Sam Horsfield was ranked 65th in the world and had already made £2.5m in 4 full years of being on tour. He's hardly the model of a struggling lower ranked tour pro.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Because the hypocrisy of the PGA wasn't being highlighted by them trying to shoot down Saudi tour for things they do themsleves ie take dirty money
		
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Why don't you just come clean and admit you want more money in the game, regardless of who is splashing it out. It's OK to be the golf fan equivalent of Phil.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 16, 2022)

Just seen something mentioned that Hovalnd and Harold Varner III could be joining the LIV, along with a few more, after the US Open has finished.


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## sunshine (Jun 16, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thou art barking up the wrong tree
Please desist 👍
		
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Fair enough. Maybe they’re just kindred spirits 😬


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## IainP (Jun 16, 2022)

I hope any further announcements are parked until after the trophy has been won.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2022)

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/usga-chiefs-considering-banning-liv-rebels-from-us-open

I didn’t think it would be long before the Majors got involved as well


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/usga-chiefs-considering-banning-liv-rebels-from-us-open

I didn’t think it would be long before the Majors got involved as well
		
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Wouldn't be an open it would become an invotational if they banned those already qualified.



Mel Smooth said:



			Just seen something mentioned that Hovalnd and Harold Varner III could be joining the LIV, along with a few more, after the US Open has finished.
		
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Hovland would be cracking. He is a future major winner


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## Slab (Jun 16, 2022)

Pretty poor article in that link

I’m not pro or anti LIV but to say the USGA considered banning players is a load of rubbish, actually they just asked themselves, did playing an LIV event provide any grounds for a player to be disqualified from the US Open?

Answer was no


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Slab said:



			Pretty poor article in that link

I’m not pro or anti LIV but to say the USGA considered banning players is a load of rubbish, actually they just asked themselves, did playing an LIV event provide any grounds for a player to be disqualified from the US Open?

Answer was no
		
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Bryson has entry for 10 years from his win 

If they try to ban them it's no longer an open . Same as the open 

The masters can do what they want same as the PGA


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## Slab (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Bryson has entry for 10 years from his win

If they try to ban them it's no longer an open . Same as the open

*The masters can do what they want same as the PG*A
		
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Funny you mention those two. Just read something else I didn't know

Of the 7 golf organisations that comprise the O*W*GR board for dishing out ranking points, 4 are American. How on earth did an imbalance like that come about in the first place


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Slab said:



			Funny you mention those two. Just read something else I didn't know

Of the 7 golf organisations that comprise the O*W*GR board for dishing out ranking points, 4 are American. How on earth did an imbalance like that come about in the first place
		
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It's all very geared to America. The talent has pooled there for years because the money is so high 

In my opinion only. This is why the PGA are so against Liv. They don't want their dominance challenged

Their fine with the DP world tour because they stay in their lane


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 16, 2022)

Greg Norman shared this on IG last night, guaranteed they'll be watching and discussing this in the locker room at the US Open today, and thinking, 'the guy is making a valid argument' 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537321612097241089


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2022)

Slab said:



			Pretty poor article in that link

I’m not pro or anti LIV *but to say the USGA considered banning players is a load of rubbish*, actually they just asked themselves, did playing an LIV event provide any grounds for a player to be disqualified from the US Open?

Answer was no
		
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Except that's, technically, precisely what they did - and came up with the ruling 'No'!
It will likely be 'more difficult' for LIV attached players to qualify in future though, as they won't have access to the PGA Tour for 'qualifying points'.
And, as fairly usual for Bunkered, the article seemed more after a headline than actual information, so I agree... pretty poor article.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Greg Norman shared this on IG last night, guaranteed they'll be watching and discussing this in the locker room at the US Open today, and thinking, 'the guy is making a valid argument'
		
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A reasonable, if very narrowly focused article. Basically, the guy is stating that money (compensation) should be the #1 driver - irrespective of the legitimacy of its source.
Rory's equally reasonable attitude, imo, is that, as long as players are being adequately compensated, it's the competition against the best in the world that's his most important driver.

FWIW, I doubt any of the US Open players will be watching that article for more thn a few seconds, if at all!!


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## evemccc (Jun 16, 2022)

If Rickie, Brooks, Hovland etc move to LIV, and I could see Xander and Morikawa going too - then an argument would be made that it’s LIV that’s most competitive in terms of majors won in recent years, and certainly the star appeal to advertisers would dwarf the competitiveness and ‘ appeal’ of Scottie Scheffler, Sam Burns, Daniel Berger and Zalatoris - irrespective of what the Fed Ex rankings say

So then Rory would have to move over too, if it wanted to be pitted against the best


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## pokerjoke (Jun 16, 2022)

Listening to sky sports now discussing Liv and it’s impact.
The PGA better watch out because in the end they could really be effected by this.
This week they’ve already increased the prize fund and I can see regular tour events being between 15+20 million very soon.
It has to otherwise we could find other big names leaving and the PGA could actually end up weaker than Liv.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If Rickie, Brooks, Hovland etc move to LIV, and I could see Xander and Morikawa going too - then an argument would be made that it’s LIV that’s most competitive in terms of majors won in recent years, and certainly the star appeal to advertisers would dwarf the competitiveness and ‘ appeal’ of Scottie Scheffler, Sam Burns, Daniel Berger and Zalatoris - irrespective of what the Fed Ex rankings say

So then Rory would have to move over too, if it wanted to be pitted against the best
		
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If Rory or Jt moved over they would probably be the biggest hypocrites in history,however I can’t ever see that happening,not after what they’ve been saying.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If Rickie, Brooks, Hovland etc move to LIV, and I could see Xander and Morikawa going too - then an argument would be made that it’s LIV that’s most competitive in terms of majors won in recent years, and certainly the star appeal to advertisers would dwarf the competitiveness and ‘ appeal’ of Scottie Scheffler, Sam Burns, Daniel Berger and Zalatoris - irrespective of what the Fed Ex rankings say

So then Rory would have to move over too, if it wanted to be pitted against the best
		
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I would be amazed if the likes of Hovland , Morikawa , Schuaffle will move - those players just like Rory ,Rahm etc are all about competing on those PGA Tour events with history and competing in the majors , Ryder Cups etc 

Fowler is another whose career has plummeted so it’s not a surprise if he goes 

Brooks right now seems to be very annoyed about it all at the moment


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## evemccc (Jun 16, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Listening to sky sports now discussing Liv and it’s impact.
The PGA better watch out because in the end they could really be effected by this.
This week they’ve already increased the prize fund and I can see regular tour events being between 15+20 million very soon.
It has to otherwise we could find other big names leaving and the PGA could actually end up weaker than Liv.
		
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Interesting - so wouldn’t Phil have been proved correct then, in that what he was so widely castigated for by the US / UK golf media?
To Shipnuck he said he wanted to use LIV to gain leverage on the PGA Tour to make changes that benefit the players 

He also said the Saudi’s were dangerous etc and murdered the journalist 

Now - how it’s played out it’s clear that both parts are pretty accurate


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## timd77 (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would be amazed if the likes of Hovland , Morikawa , Schuaffle will move - those players just like Rory ,Rahm etc are all about competing on those PGA Tour events with history and competing in the majors , Ryder Cups etc

Fowler is another whose career has plummeted so it’s not a surprise if he goes

Brooks right now seems to be very annoyed about it all at the moment
		
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Yeh, agree with this. Brooks likes the beef doesn’t he, rarely gives a straight answer to quash a story. Could certainly see him going but not the others.


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## Backsticks (Jun 16, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			If Rory or Jt moved over they would probably be the biggest hypocrites in history,however I can’t ever see that happening,not after what they’ve been saying.
		
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For those who have justified their decision on playing against the best, its all about wins that prove themselves against the best in the world, then I dont think its hypocritical if they jump if and after the balance of power has shifted to LIV. In fact they are consistent to their conviction if they then do move. Those not moving claiming moral issues with Saudi would be however.


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## AussieKB (Jun 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			For those who have justified their decision on playing against the best, its all about wins that prove themselves against the best in the world, then I dont think its hypocritical if they jump if and after the balance of power has shifted to LIV. In fact they are consistent to their conviction if they then do move. Those not moving claiming moral issues with Saudi would be however.
		
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But would they move if LIV did not pay for them ???? then we would know who are hypocrites.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would be amazed if the likes of Hovland , Morikawa , Schuaffle will move - those players just like Rory ,Rahm etc are all about competing on those PGA Tour events with history and competing in the majors , Ryder Cups etc

Fowler is another whose career has plummeted so it’s not a surprise if he goes

*Brooks right now seems to be very annoyed about it all at the moment*

Click to expand...

I'm sure he has a few thoughts about his brother winning $146,000 for his +10 finish (Tied 33rd out of 48) at LIV, and his potential future earnings in the upcoming LIV events. Not bad since his PGA career earnings up until then were $306,000. I wonder what his sign up fee for LIV was as well? Poaching the younger brother of one of the worlds best golfer could have been a nice tactic for LIV to play.

So, I'm sure Brooks does not want to be critical of LIV, as he doesn't want to then look to be criticising his brother, which inevitably a journalist would follow up with if he was critical of LIV. I can also see him having a bit of brotherly rivalry, and might begin to wonder about his own career decisions if his younger brother starts rapidy becoming more financially successful than him (and catching up in terms of career earnings), despite being a much less successful / skillful golfer. Also, if he also has that genuine rivalry with Brooks, maybe it would hurt him to see Bryson massively out earning him. Brooks could maybe win the moral high ground argument, but if more and more big players do eventually move across anyway, then the later they make that decision the less they benefit financially. No need for LIV to offer big players the same monumental packages to sign up, if most of the big players have already signed up anyway. Not to mention all the early tournaments they have missed, many of which have golfers who, at best, have one a couple of monthly medals before signing up to LIV. 

I can certainly see Brooks switching across to LIV in the not too distant future.


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## Backsticks (Jun 16, 2022)

Koepka has clearly stated he doesnt value PGA wins. Its about the majors for him. So sure he would jump easy if his access to the 4 big ones wasnt at risk.
Preumably he would care about LIV wins either. They are all equal mediocrity to him.


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## Beezerk (Jun 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Koepka has clearly stated he doesnt value PGA wins. Its about the majors for him. So sure he would jump easy if his access to the 4 big ones wasnt at risk.
		
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That’s the thing, a golfers greatness is generally measured on how many majors they win not how many pga victories they have. I’m pretty sure the golfer who has 10 pga tour wins but blew a lead at a major would give up all those wins for that one major title.
I wouldn’t blame him for jumping ship, most pga events are 10 a penny barring the Players and a couple more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			That’s the thing, a golfers greatness is generally measured on how many majors they win not how many pga victories they have. I’m pretty sure the golfer who has 10 pga tour wins but blew a lead at a major would give up all those wins for that one major title.
I wouldn’t blame him for jumping ship, most pga events are 10 a penny barring the Players and a couple more.
		
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Chicken and egg scenario- the PGA events are needed for the players to get into the majors but certainty agree in regards how most view the Tour events and it would be the same with any event 

I have no doubt that Monty would swap all his OOM for one major or Poulter , Westwood etc swapping all their RC or ET wins for an major 

The single key element is the ranking points - if they allowed the LIV events ranking points it would change the outlook of it all


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## Beezerk (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Chicken and egg scenario- the PGA events are needed for the players to get into the majors but certainty agree in regards how most view the Tour events and it would be the same with any event 

I have no doubt that Monty would swap all his OOM for one major or Poulter , Westwood etc swapping all their RC or ET wins for an major 

The single key element is the ranking points - if they allowed the LIV events ranking points it would change the outlook of it all
		
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Yes that’s true, who decides what tournaments are able to give out world ranking points, is it the pga or another body?
Re the pga events, maybe my 10 a penny was harsh but some of them just don’t interest me at all.


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## Depreston (Jun 16, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Yes that’s true, who decides what tournaments are able to give out world ranking points, is it the pga or another body?
Re the pga events, maybe my 10 a penny was harsh but some of them just don’t interest me at all.
		
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who decides ? The OWGR board

THE OWGR GOVERNING BOARD
Chairman – Peter Dawson
Augusta National Golf Club – Buzzy Johnson
European Tour – Keith Pelley 
International Federation of PGA Tours – Keith Waters 
PGA of America – Seth Waugh
PGA TOUR – Jay Monahan
The R&A – Martin Slumbers
USGA – Mike Whan


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## Swango1980 (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Chicken and egg scenario- the PGA events are needed for the players to get into the majors but certainty agree in regards how most view the Tour events and it would be the same with any event

*I have no doubt that Monty would swap all his OOM for one major or Poulter , Westwood etc swapping all their RC or ET wins for an major*

The single key element is the ranking points - if they allowed the LIV events ranking points it would change the outlook of it all
		
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I see what you are saying, but I think this overstates the point. Monty and Westwood's profiles were hugely raised based on their general success on their tours, and their involvement in the Ryder Cup. In fact, many players say their best memories are the Ryder Cup wins, even Major winners. So, I'm almost certain they wouldn't swap all their Ryder Cup wins, and overall success on tour, to have the career of Todd Hamilton?


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 16, 2022)

I've been spending some time on GolfWRX recently and the moderation is mental. Half of the threads on the front page require your post to be moderated, no mention of LIV except in the LIV thread. 

The best was on the US Open thread. As Phil was teeing off there was a short discussion about him not getting booed, 3 or 4 posts, no mention of anything LIV related, but now they have all been removed.

The land of the free? The KGB couldn't do a better job.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I've been spending some time on GolfWRX recently and the moderation is mental. Half of the threads on the front page require your post to be moderated, no mention of LIV except in the LIV thread.

The best was on the US Open thread. As Phil was teeing off there was a short discussion about him not getting booed, 3 or 4 posts, no mention of anything LIV related, but now they have all been removed.

The land of the free? The KGB couldn't do a better job.
		
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Grass isn't always greener


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## Backsticks (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Grass isn't always greener
		
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Indeed.

Where it could do with some moderation is in the tales of a handicap of 19.3 who bought the low spin version of a new release driver in the spring and simply couldnt hit it. Then bought the Plus/Max/Extra version with a not publicly released shaft from a friend with access to one of the clubs tour trucks that Rory tried but felt he was simply hitting it too far. Put 2g of hot melt in it to deaden the sound and swapped out the 14g weight for a silver plated 12g one. Is now hitting bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. A fairway finder that hits a baby draw with 325 yards carry, a spin that does NOT stray outside 2240-2290 on ANY shot, and the dispersion is so low that another friend who plays the Korn Ferry told him no one on that tour can drive the ball so well. Handicap is still 19.3.


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## Rlburnside (Jun 16, 2022)

I like what Rahm said, basically all the bigger names that have gone across to LIV already have more money than they could spend in a lifetime. Why would they need more.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jun 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Indeed.

Where it could do with some moderation is in the tales of a handicap of 19.3 who bought the low spin version of a new release driver in the spring and simply couldnt hit it. Then bought the Plus/Max/Extra version with a not publicly released shaft from a friend with access to one of the clubs tour trucks that Rory tried but felt he was simply hitting it too far. Put 2g of hot melt in it to deaden the sound and swapped out the 14g weight for a silver plated 12g one. Is now hitting bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. A fairway finder that hits a baby draw with 325 yards carry, a spin that does NOT stray outside 2240-2290 on ANY shot, and the dispersion is so low that another friend who plays the Korn Ferry told him no one on that tour can drive the ball so well. Handicap is still 19.3.
		
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I'm intrigued. I haven't read about this amazing 19 handicapper, but then again if it is who I think it is I tend to avoid his threads.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Indeed.

Where it could do with some moderation is in the tales of a handicap of 19.3 who bought the low spin version of a new release driver in the spring and simply couldnt hit it. Then bought the Plus/Max/Extra version with a not publicly released shaft from a friend with access to one of the clubs tour trucks that Rory tried but felt he was simply hitting it too far. Put 2g of hot melt in it to deaden the sound and swapped out the 14g weight for a silver plated 12g one. Is now hitting bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. A fairway finder that hits a baby draw with 325 yards carry, a spin that does NOT stray outside 2240-2290 on ANY shot, and the dispersion is so low that another friend who plays the Korn Ferry told him no one on that tour can drive the ball so well. Handicap is still 19.3.
		
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Did I read this right?
Someone has a 19.3 handicap but can drive it 325 yds finding the fairway almost always?
What does he putt with - a sledgehammer?
I err, , I find this difficult to believe.


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## Backsticks (Jun 16, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Did I read this right?
Someone has a 19.3 handicap but can drive it 325 yds finding the fairway almost always?
What does he putt with - a sledgehammer?
I err, , I find this difficult to believe.
		
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Sorry. Hence my suggestion on moderation there. Every second thread on wrx has some such tale. The others have this years new model hitting it 15-19 yards longer. Every year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2022)

I hope the Saudi PIF have kept the receipt for some of those players 😁


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## Depreston (Jun 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Sorry. Hence my suggestion on moderation there. Every second thread on wrx has some such tale. The others have this years new model hitting it 15-19 yards longer. Every year.
		
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The instruction and academy forum is hilarious absolute cult following of some professionals 

I like Monte but Jesus they’re so far up his arse


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## TheDiablo (Jun 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I hope the Saudi PIF have kept the receipt for some of those players 😁
		
Click to expand...


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## IainP (Jun 16, 2022)

When the aim was to have people into team golf,  they perhaps weren't anticipating it would be team defectors vs. team stay put, in the majors!

Still right now it seems to be benefitting stay put Europeans 😁


Did think young Piot played well earlier.


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## IainP (Jun 17, 2022)

Depreston said:



			who decides ? The OWGR board

THE OWGR GOVERNING BOARD
Chairman – Peter Dawson
Augusta National Golf Club – Buzzy Johnson
European Tour – Keith Pelley
International Federation of PGA Tours – Keith Waters
PGA of America – Seth Waugh
PGA TOUR – Jay Monahan
The R&A – Martin Slumbers
USGA – Mike Whan
		
Click to expand...

Earlier on in the saga I was a tad confused why they hadn't tried to sort owgr, until I understood the make up of the board. I suspect their hope is if they can lure enough top 100 players into the money pot then the 'independents' on the board will wish to keep it easy for them to qualify. Also the punters may start to question the validity of the rankings if exclusions.
Good luck Peter Dawson refereeing this!


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## AussieKB (Jun 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			Earlier on in the saga I was a tad confused why they hadn't tried to sort owgr, until I understood the make up of the board. I suspect their hope is if they can lure enough top 100 players into the money pot then the 'independents' on the board will wish to keep it easy for them to qualify. Also the punters may start to question the validity of the rankings if exclusions.
Good luck Peter Dawson refereeing this!
		
Click to expand...

Easy to see why everything weighted to the PGA Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Easy to see why everything weighted to the PGA Tour.
		
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Exactly. 

Closed shop effectively. 
Maybe they should drop the W from that moniker.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 17, 2022)

How is it a closed shop when its representation is drawn from the long accepted world golf authorities? 

Liv might get a seat at the table when they’ve demonstrated and earned one. They won’t get one by self entitlement.  

The shilling on display in this thread is just embarrassing.


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## AussieKB (Jun 17, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			How is it a closed shop when its representation is drawn from the long accepted world golf authorities?

Liv might get a seat at the table when they’ve demonstrated and earned one. They won’t get one by self entitlement. 

The shilling on display in this thread is just embarrassing.
		
Click to expand...

No one from Asia, South Africa or Australia for starters.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No one from Asia, South Africa or Australia for starters.
		
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Affiliated to and represented by the R&A as the leading body.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 17, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			How is it a closed shop when its representation is drawn from the long accepted world golf authorities? 

Liv might get a seat at the table when they’ve demonstrated and earned one. They won’t get one by self entitlement.  

The shilling on display in this thread is just embarrassing.
		
Click to expand...


Why are Augusta national sat at that table? 
A club with historical racial and sexual discrimination - do they need to be there, just because they hold a major - or is it self entitlement in their part.

8 man committee, representing World golf, with 4 American organisations taking up half of the seats. 

That isn't good for the game outside of America, and that's reflected in the way the points are structured.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why are Augusta national sat at that table?
		
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Because the rankings were originated to manage worldwide entries and exemptions to the recognised Majors.

See also the technical committee where actual work is done. 

Chairman - Ian Barker 
Asian Tour - Cho Minn Thant, Chief Operating Officer
Augusta National GC - Matt Williams, Director of Golf Development
European Tour - Keith Waters, Chief Operating Officer & Director of International Policy
Japan Golf Tour - Amigo Urayama, General Manager
PGA of America - Kerry Haigh, Chief Championships Officer
PGA Tour of Australasia - Nick Dastey, Tournament Director
PGA Tour - Billy Schroder, Vice President, International Relations
Sunshine Tour - Thomas Abt, Chief Operating Officer
The R&A - Professor Steve Otto, R&A Executive Director – CTO
USGA - Jeff Hall, Managing Director Rules & Open Championships

TL;DR you're just wrong.


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## JamesR (Jun 17, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Because the rankings were originated to manage worldwide entries and exemptions to the recognised Majors.

See also the technical committee where actual work is done.

Chairman - Ian Barker
Asian Tour - Cho Minn Thant, Chief Operating Officer
Augusta National GC - Matt Williams, Director of Golf Development
European Tour - Keith Waters, Chief Operating Officer & Director of International Policy
Japan Golf Tour - Amigo Urayama, General Manager
PGA of America - Kerry Haigh, Chief Championships Officer
PGA Tour of Australasia - Nick Dastey, Tournament Director
PGA Tour - Billy Schroder, Vice President, International Relations
Sunshine Tour - Thomas Abt, Chief Operating Officer
The R&A - Professor Steve Otto, R&A Executive Director – CTO
USGA - Jeff Hall, Managing Director Rules & Open Championships

TL;DR you're just wrong.
		
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But why is there only 1 from the Asian Tour - don't you know how many people there are in India & China ?


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## DaveR (Jun 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			But why is there only 1 from the Asian Tour - don't you know how many people there are in India & China ?


Click to expand...

Judging by the number of takeaways in my area I'd say not many


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## IainP (Jun 17, 2022)

Interesting,  DP World have door ajar for now
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/co...m_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow


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## JamesR (Jun 17, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537872751477809154


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm sure he has a few thoughts about his brother winning $146,000 for his +10 finish (Tied 33rd out of 48) at LIV, and his potential future earnings in the upcoming LIV events. Not bad since his PGA career earnings up until then were $306,000. I wonder what his sign up fee for LIV was as well? Poaching the younger brother of one of the worlds best golfer could have been a nice tactic for LIV to play.

So, I'm sure Brooks does not want to be critical of LIV, as he doesn't want to then look to be criticising his brother, which inevitably a journalist would follow up with if he was critical of LIV. I can also see him having a bit of brotherly rivalry, and might begin to wonder about his own career decisions if his younger brother starts rapidy becoming more financially successful than him (and catching up in terms of career earnings), despite being a much less successful / skillful golfer. Also, if he also has that genuine rivalry with Brooks, maybe it would hurt him to see Bryson massively out earning him. Brooks could maybe win the moral high ground argument, but if more and more big players do eventually move across anyway, then the later they make that decision the less they benefit financially. No need for LIV to offer big players the same monumental packages to sign up, if most of the big players have already signed up anyway. Not to mention all the early tournaments they have missed, many of which have golfers who, at best, have one a couple of monthly medals before signing up to LIV.

I can certainly see Brooks switching across to LIV in the not too distant future.
		
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So his brother has made roughly $500k. Koepka $38m. He won't be catching him anytime soon.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Easy to see why everything weighted to the PGA Tour.
		
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Actually it's easier for European players to get into the top 100 than it is for PGA players of a similar skill set.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 18, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			So his brother has made roughly $500k. Koepka $38m. He won't be catching him anytime soon.
		
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No, but we've no idea if there was a decent sign on fee. And, a few highish place finishes for Chase to get a few million here and there. They key point I was making was that Chase could start earning more than Brooks (in terms of current earnings at any given point), rather than ultimately have higher career earnings. It was more about closing the gap. Meanwhile, Brooks would be thinking he should be coining it in and dwarfing Chase's current earnings, if he was also.in LIV


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			No, but we've no idea if there was a decent sign on fee. And, a few highish place finishes for Chase to get a few million here and there. They key point I was making was that Chase could start earning more than Brooks (in terms of current earnings at any given point), rather than ultimately have higher career earnings. It was more about closing the gap. Meanwhile, Brooks would be thinking he should be coining it in and dwarfing Chase's current earnings, if he was also.in LIV
		
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No idea what goes on in Brooks's head. 🤷


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## Swango1980 (Jun 18, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			No idea what goes on in Brooks's head. 🤷
		
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True. It is why we often discuss opinions rather than factual goings on in a person's head. Have you ever been in a forum? 

Plenty of people have expressed greed as a reason players join LIV. Maybe we should just shut down everybody's opinion by stating "we don't know what is going on in their head exactly"


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			True. It is why we often discuss opinions rather than factual goings on in a person's head. Have you ever been in a forum?

Plenty of people have expressed greed as a reason players join LIV. Maybe we should just shut down everybody's opinion by stating "we don't know what is going on in their head exactly" 

Click to expand...

Well IMO there's measured speculation based on some kind of existing knowledge and then another kind which is mainly, as in your example, just mainly assumptions and 'ifs' based on the internal workings of Koepka's mind and relationship with his brother, which we know nothing about.

But from what we he's said in the past re general competitions vs majors I'd agree that LIV could tempt him, but likely only if hes guaranteed he'd still be allowed to compete in the majors, as he sees these as the ones he really wants to win.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 18, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Well IMO there's measured speculation based on some kind of existing knowledge and then another kind which is mainly, as in your example, just mainly assumptions and 'ifs' based on the internal workings of Koepka's mind and relationship with his brother, which we know nothing about.

But from what we he's said in the past re general competitions vs majors I'd agree that LIV could tempt him, but likely only if hes guaranteed he'd still be allowed to compete in the majors, as he sees these as the ones he really wants to win.
		
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Of course it is speculation. It was an educated assumption as to what Brooks might be thinking. It is why my original comment included words like might and maybe. He is a competitive guy, and so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of friendly sibling rivalry. I hadn't tried to make out I was definitively expressing Brooks' thoughts, or representing him as his agent. 

It isn't hard to imagine that you might wonder if you are making the right decision if you are fighting to.make cuts, while your significantly less talented sibling is guaranteed to make 6 figure sums each comp, and millions over the 7 comps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 18, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538242662683267073


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## woofers (Jun 19, 2022)

Interesting read of Eddie Pepperells view of LIV and wider implications in The Sunday Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ng-to-demise-of-tour-that-made-them-bqmsnqqtb


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 19, 2022)

woofers said:



			Interesting read of Eddie Pepperells view of LIV and wider implications in The Sunday Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ng-to-demise-of-tour-that-made-them-bqmsnqqtb

Click to expand...

For those without access

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eddie-pepperell-liv-defectors-only-serving-themselves-and-may-end-up-contributing-to-demise-of-tour-that-made-them-bqmsnqqtb

Edit Apologies the paywall might still be there.


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 19, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			For those without access

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eddie-pepperell-liv-defectors-only-serving-themselves-and-may-end-up-contributing-to-demise-of-tour-that-made-them-bqmsnqqtb

Edit Apologies the paywall might still be there.
		
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Any chance you could copy the article in here?


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## IainP (Jun 19, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Any chance you could copy the article in here?
		
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Is probably this one 
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-new...estwood-poulter-and-garcia-over-liv-rebellion


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## IainP (Jun 19, 2022)

Pure speculation,  Pelley might be toying with letting the liv guys onto regular DP tour events which might boost the ranking points a little,  but not onto the co-sanctioned with PGA Tour events. Saying to Monahan,  if you want to block them futher then co-sanction some more.


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## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2022)

A quote from the unique Charles Barkley about the signing bonus...

“I don’t judge other people. Listen, if somebody gave me $200 million I’d kill a relative,” Barkley joked before doubling down. “I’m serious. They’re saying Phil Mickelson got $200 million, Dustin Johnson got $150 million, for $150 million I’d kill a relative, even one I like.”


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 20, 2022)

I saw Keven Pietersen on Twitter was defending the players that had signed for the LIV golf by saying that it was a business decision and they were doing it for the money. As he's so vocal about poachers targeting rhinos in Africa for their horns I wonder if he'd accept that for the poachers it's purely a business decision and they're doing it for the money?


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## AussieKB (Jun 21, 2022)

Why is it okay that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? 
Where is the outcry over this, does not fit your narrative so we will ignore it.

Why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40 plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia 
and that is OK, but the players oh no you have to be cleaner then white.


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## Imurg (Jun 21, 2022)

At the end of the day I think the main problem people have with the whole LIV thing is the sheer amount of money that is being thrown at, in the most part, mediocre p,ayers edging towards the end of their careers or younger players who, on the whole, aren't going to make it to the big time.
They're trying to buy a Tour...it's similar to the rich guy who walks into the pro shop and blows 5 grand on a full set of Taylormades plus bag, trolley etc etc  walks out to the first tee and shanks every ball he's got into the lake...
It's their money and they can spend it how they like but don't expect everyone to be your best friend just because you're loaded.
Yes they put money into other enterprises but its a respectable amount..they're not trying too hard.
LIV is a nonsense - paying Mickelson 200m or whatever it was...DJ 120m...way more than Tiger has won in 20 years....
That's my problem with it....
The fields will get better because of human greed and if someone offered me the money it would be hard to turn it down..
Nobody is worth that amount of money, especially not those towards the end of their time on the course.
That you view.


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## Backsticks (Jun 21, 2022)

I dont think that is the main problem, and it certainly isnt for me.
I have no concept of the millions they already earn on the PGA tour. 3 million for 4 days work for Fitzpatrick. The estimate is that Tiger had already passed one billion in earnings in his career from all sources.
From a global perspective of everyone on the planet, all those guys are already in the top 0.01%. Any fairness has long been left behind.
An extra zero on a number that is already stratospheric has no meaning to even the ordinary, even comfortable financially, golf spectator.

The issue for me, is a biforkation of elite golf, and the risk that the worlds top 100 will be split into two camps that never, or at best rarely, for the majors meet. So both tours are the losers. Both fields will be weak. And there will be no real equivalence or way of judging who is best individually, or which tour is better. There will no longer be a best golfer in the world. No longer a clear top 10. No longer a clear mountain for talented youth to climb to the top of world golf. There will be two peaks. Both will be lower than they could be. And nobody will know which is the higher one.

So if everyone moves to LIV, I would be fine with it.
Or if there is free movement between LIV and other tours I would he fine with it.
If  they paid Phil 10 billion, I would be fine with it. That bit makes no difference.

(though LIV needs to cut the crap of teams, 54 holes, etc)


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

PGA should back down, for those players that want to play both PGA Tour and LIV - let them, for those that don't - no problem.

The PGA Tour have tried to force the players decisions with bans, and threats - it hasn't really worked as the players like Rory, Rahm and Fitzpatrick were probably never interested, where as the ones that have already gone or are going are prepared to sack off the PGA Tour anyway - and the only loser there really, is the PGA Tour.

There isn't really one big event (as in a Major ot TPC etc) left on US soil now for the PGA Tour, and if they (and the media) continue the "smear campaign" against LIV through The Open, a lot more people will become disgruntled with the obsessive LIV questions.
In comparison, LIV have 5 events in America where they can dominate the headlines and build up support for their product.

I'd imagine that Monahon was hoping he'd have done a better job of snuffing out the LIV threat by now, but it hasn't happened - he really does need to have a rethink about their approach.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Why is it okay that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? 
Where is the outcry over this, does not fit your narrative so we will ignore it.

Why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40 plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia 
and that is OK, but the players oh no you have to be cleaner then white.
		
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I was randomly looking at golf world rankings, and noticed a few big name players played in the PIF Saudi International in February.

I assume the people taking the moral high ground about LIV were equally as critical of players playing in this tournament?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I was randomly looking at golf world rankings, and noticed a few big name players played in the PIF Saudi International in February.

I assume the people taking the moral high ground about LIV were equally as critical of players playing in this tournament?
		
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The same old tired argument that "people don't condemn everything therefore anything is agreeable".

Personally I'd no idea about it, and it's a real shame that an organisation crying out for equality is taking money from somewhere that has very dubious practices.

Regardless, the issue remains that if you don't stand for anything then you stand for nothing.


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## Lilyhawk (Jun 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			The same old tired argument that "people don't condemn everything therefore anything is agreeable".

Personally I'd no idea about it, and it's a real shame that an organisation crying out for equality is taking money from somewhere that has very dubious practices.

Regardless, the issue remains that if you don't stand for anything then you stand for nothing.
		
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My favourite argument is the one about people being hypocrites because they fill their cars with petrol. Absolutely laughable. I wonder how  those using that argument even manage to tie their own shoe laces when they clearly suffer from intellectual dwarfism.


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## Backsticks (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			PGA should back down, for those players that want to play both PGA Tour and LIV - let them, for those that don't - no problem.
		
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Of course its a problem. From a golfing perspective its no problem. But the contest between LIV and he PGA Tour isnt a golf competition, its business competition. They are not amateur organisations like the USGA and R&A whose mission is the good of the game. They are commercial rivals, battling and trying to protect their own ground and existance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			PGA should back down, for those players that want to play both PGA Tour and LIV - let them, for those that don't - no problem.

The PGA Tour have tried to force the players decisions with bans, and threats - it hasn't really worked as the players like Rory, Rahm and Fitzpatrick were probably never interested, where as the ones that have already gone or are going are prepared to sack off the PGA Tour anyway - and the only loser there really, is the PGA Tour.

There isn't really one big event (as in a Major ot TPC etc) left on US soil now for the PGA Tour, and if they (and the media) continue the "smear campaign" against LIV through The Open, a lot more people will become disgruntled with the obsessive LIV questions.
In comparison, LIV have 5 events in America where they can dominate the headlines and build up support for their product.

I'd imagine that Monahon was hoping he'd have done a better job of snuffing out the LIV threat by now, but it hasn't happened - he really does need to have a rethink about their approach.
		
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There is still the Fed Ex Cup playoffs on US Soil

I’m not sure what you think has changed over the last week but what the golf world saw was a brilliant US Open where it was dominated by the up and coming new breed of players that are clearly very much with the PGA Tour 

The LIV players were not even a side note in dispatches on the Sunday evening , that tells you everything you need to know - the biggest LIV highlight was watching Mickleson hack it around the golf course and people feeling zero sympathy for him 

The golf did its talking this weekend


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			The same old tired argument that "people don't condemn everything therefore anything is agreeable".

Personally I'd no idea about it, and it's a real shame that an organisation crying out for equality is taking money from somewhere that has very dubious practices.

Regardless, the issue remains that if you don't stand for anything then you stand for nothing.
		
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I just find social media interesting. I have spoken to dozens of people face to face about LIV, it is certainly a big talking point around the golf club. Certainly a lot of negative and positive comments, but mostly people are intrigued as to how it will pan out. However, not one person has ever raised human rights or taken the moral high ground about it. And pretty much everyone has understood exactly why players would jump at the chance to take that amount of money.

Yet, on social media you find it is where the moral warriors of this world live, who like to tell everyone what decisions they should make, and if they disagree criticise that persons own moral judgement. 

The reason I asked about the PIF Saudi International is that, for people with such a high moral compass, then this tournament must also be criticised by the same arguments? I don't remember the PGA Tour being outraged by it? I wouldn't go as far as criticising people for putting petrol in their car, or what clothes they wear, as I do recognise a difference between having highly moral views but also being able to do the necessities in life.


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## AussieKB (Jun 21, 2022)

*PGA Tour plots stunning $108m move to beat LIV*

https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/p...y/news-story/6821246458d789dc2710043995e56af1

Very interesting article....I wonder where all the money is coming from.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is still the Fed Ex Cup playoffs on US Soil

I’m not sure what you think has changed over the last week but what the golf world saw was a brilliant US Open where it was dominated by the up and coming new breed of players that are clearly very much with the PGA Tour 

The LIV players were not even a side note in dispatches on the Sunday evening , that tells you everything you need to know - the biggest LIV highlight was watching Mickleson hack it around the golf course and people feeling zero sympathy for him 

The golf did its talking this weekend
		
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Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved? 

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



*PGA Tour plots stunning $108m move to beat LIV*

https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/p...y/news-story/6821246458d789dc2710043995e56af1

Very interesting article....I wonder where all the money is coming from.
		
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108 mil v billions 

It won’t be enough


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved?

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.
		
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DJ finished above the current PGA championship winner aswell yet thought he was past it


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved?

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.
		
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The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events 

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that. 

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events 

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that. 

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points
		
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The distractions are coming from the media, not LIV. They only started to wind their necks in when Koepka said he was sick of hearing about it - that's my point, the PGA are losing support because of the path they've taken by being so divisive. If they'd sanctioned players to play, LIV wouldn't have got a fraction of the attention it took away from the US Open 

Does the PGA hold more cards? In terms of player quality they do, but after that, I'd say the LIV has a lot more footholds build their product this year than the tour does. 

There's room for both, but if they're going to fight it out, the PGA is going to have to take a lot of blows to see this out.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events*

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that.

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points
		
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Yet, how would the Canadian Open have been if Rory McIlroy wasn't playing. Or if Justin Thomas wasn't playing? If Justin Thomas joined LIV, you could still use the same argument that "there is plenty of high level talent" on the PGA to showcase their events. Yet, in that specific event, you would not have had the same high level golf we were treated to.

You cannot expect Rory McIlroy, Justin Thomas and Tony Finau to battle for the win in every PGA Tour event. They'll have plenty of bad days, and plenty of events they won't even be part of. In another PGA Tour event, who is to say it wouldn't have been DJ and Bryson battling it at the top. Two big hitters battling for the win. That could also provide an exciting spectacled for fans. But, we won't get it on the PGA Tour. We might get it on LIV though.

For the fans, I've no doubt the PGA holds more pulling power than LIV because of the quality of the field, history of the events and the fact that the outcome in each event has a meaningful impact on world ranking and FedEx points. But, LIV has certainly weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of it's better players. If this continues, then there could be a point where there are just as many, if not more, of the worlds best players on LIV. Even if the World Ranking Points do not indicate that, fans will be aware exactly why that is. I'd imagine the World Rankings will have to include LIV at some point, otherwise it makes a mockery of the system itself. I appreciate there is always a debate on the detail of how world ranking points are calculated, but to completely ignore players who are clearly up there with the best in the world would be ridiculous.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The distractions are coming from the media, not LIV. They only started to wind their necks in when Koepka said he was sick of hearing about it - that's my point, the PGA are losing support because of the path they've taken by being so divisive. If they'd sanctioned players to play, LIV wouldn't have got a fraction of the attention it took away from the US Open
		
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The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament 

In what way are the PGA Losing support ? 

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour 

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding 

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport 




			Does the PGA hold more cards? In terms of player quality they do, but after that, I'd say the LIV has a lot more footholds build their product this year than the tour does.

There's room for both, but if they're going to fight it out, the PGA is going to have to take a lot of blows to see this out.
		
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Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start 

That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 21, 2022)

WGC events are money spinners, they hold no greater credibility in history than the John Deere Classic or whatever. Now that LIV has come along that prize money for the WGC doesn't stand out quite so much.

The PGA stance is weakening their own product at the moment and I only see that continuing if they do not soften.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport



Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

*That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players*

Click to expand...

Clearly not to all players, given that some have already played in LIV, and others have committed themselves to LIV after the PGA formally banned the guys playing in the first LIV event.

If LIV didn't hold any cards, the PGA would really have no reason to get its knickers in a twist about LIV.


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## AddisonRoad (Jun 21, 2022)

To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Yet, how would the Canadian Open have been if Rory McIlroy wasn't playing. Or if Justin Thomas wasn't playing? If Justin Thomas joined LIV, you could still use the same argument that "there is plenty of high level talent" on the PGA to showcase their events. Yet, in that specific event, you would not have had the same high level golf we were treated to.*

Click to expand...

But the players were there so all the ifs are irrelevant at the end of the day - 

The Canadian Open was a superb tournament that showcased some of the best in the world - as opposed to the exhibition in Hemel Hempstead 



			You cannot expect Rory McIlroy, Justin Thomas and Tony Finau to battle for the win in every PGA Tour event. They'll have plenty of bad days, and plenty of events they won't even be part of. In another PGA Tour event, who is to say it wouldn't have been DJ and Bryson battling it at the top. Two big hitters battling for the win. That could also provide an exciting spectacled for fans. But, we won't get it on the PGA Tour. We might get it on LIV though.

For the fans, I've no doubt the PGA holds more pulling power than LIV because of the quality of the field, history of the events and the fact that the outcome in each event has a meaningful impact on world ranking and FedEx points. But, LIV has certainly weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of it's better players. If this continues, then there could be a point where there are just as many, if not more, of the worlds best players on LIV. Even if the World Ranking Points do not indicate that, fans will be aware exactly why that is. I'd imagine the World Rankings will have to include LIV at some point, otherwise it makes a mockery of the system itself. I appreciate there is always a debate on the detail of how world ranking points are calculated, but to completely ignore players who are clearly up there with the best in the world would be ridiculous.
		
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But Rory and Co aren’t going the LIV so the point is irrelevant 🤷‍♂️ - they are battling out on the PGA tour along with the likes of Scheffler, Spieth , Zalatoris, Schuaffle, Morikawa

Is it 4 or 5 people from the top 50 that have chased the money - that leaves 40 plus other players , plus the rest of the top 100 fighting out for wins on the PGA tour - I don’t think they have too much to worry about if Rory and Justin take a week off , there will be others coming through that will be looking to earn their wins and money

Loosing a couple of players is not changing the PGA tour - whilst all those other top players and the new batch are with the PGA then they will hold the cards

As for ranking points - they are 54 hole events , the panel aren’t going to award these events ranking points and even then the points will still be with the players as opposed to the events


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## timd77 (Jun 21, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.
		
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Agreed. I had that LIV event on in the background whilst working, got more work done than if I’d had the radio on! Once the first 30 mins were done, we’d  seen the shotgun start and that it quickly ended up being an exhibition with nothing really at stake, my morbid curiosity disappeared. If all the top players went to LIV I’d stop watching golf on tv aside from the majors and Ryder cup, I won’t be helping the Saudi regime complete their sports washing.

Edit - I meant if the PGA was no more because all the players went to LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the players were there so all the ifs are irrelevant at the end of the day -

The Canadian Open was a superb tournament that showcased some of the best in the world - as opposed to the exhibition in Hemel Hempstead


But Rory and Co aren’t going the LIV so the point is irrelevant 🤷‍♂️ - they are battling out on the PGA tour along with the likes of Scheffler, Spieth , Zalatoris, Schuaffle, Morikawa

Is it 4 or 5 people from the top 50 that have chased the money - that leaves 40 plus other players , plus the rest of the top 100 fighting out for wins on the PGA tour - I don’t think they have too much to worry about if Rory and Justin take a week off , there will be others coming through that will be looking to earn their wins and money

*Loosing a couple of players is not changing the PGA tour* - whilst all those other top players and the new batch are with the PGA then they will hold the cards

As for ranking points - they are 54 hole events , the panel aren’t going to award these events ranking points and even then the points will still be with the players as opposed to the events
		
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They are still weakening it. You certainly can't say that a Tour is strengthened after losing several of its highest ranked players. Nor can you say it remains unchanged. As I said, the PGA it still a significantly stronger brand than LIV, it is just weaker than it was before LIV.

Leading up to LIV, DJ, Westy, Phil, Garcia, etc were all signed up. We could be having the exact same debate. I could have said if someone like Bryson moved across, the PGA Tour would be a little weaker. A fair argument, I believe, and you could have said it is irrelevant because Bryson hadn't signed up to it. Yet, here we are, and he has signed up to it.

Of course these discussions are relevant. Unless you can convince me that no other world leading player will ever join LIV, and it is now only the guys who have already signed up (or future guys approaching the Seniors Tour age). If that is indeed the case, then I will be happy to agree with you. The PGA holds all the cards, and LIV will never amount to anything apart from giving a few guys a decent pension.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.
		
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Who is this 'PGA' you mention? Is it 'PGA Tour', the commercial body? Or 'USPGA', the administrative body? Please clarify/differentiate, as it's quite confusing otherwise.
FWIW. I don't believe the PGA Tour could afford 'running at a loss' to counter LIV, as it doesn't have he virtually bottomless pit of resources LIV has access to!
And Pelley seems, almost by default, to have played ET's hand better than Monahan's 'war' style. The PGAET may come out of the 'battle' stronger!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			They are still weakening it. You certainly can't say that a Tour is strengthened after losing several of its highest ranked players. Nor can you say it remains unchanged. As I said, the PGA it still a significantly stronger brand than LIV, it is just weaker than it was before LIV.

Leading up to LIV, DJ, Westy, Phil, Garcia, etc were all signed up. We could be having the exact same debate. I could have said if someone like Bryson moved across, the PGA Tour would be a little weaker. A fair argument, I believe, and you could have said it is irrelevant because Bryson hadn't signed up to it. Yet, here we are, and he has signed up to it.

Of course these discussions are relevant. Unless you can convince me that no other world leading player will ever join LIV, and it is now only the guys who have already signed up (or future guys approaching the Seniors Tour age). If that is indeed the case, then I will be happy to agree with you. The PGA holds all the cards, and LIV will never amount to anything apart from giving a few guys a decent pension.
		
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It’s irrelevant to talk about events that have passed in regards players not being there when those players were actually there 🤷‍♂️ - what does it prove ?

It’s relevant if talking about future events - and then you can look at what players are in those events to see how they stack up - Not every event will have the likes of Rory and Thomas fighting it out but there is deep strength within the PGA tour so that there will potentially be other players stepping up

The impact on the tour of losing players like DJ , Mickleson and BDC is very little , the Canadian Open was sponsered by RDC I think it is and they are Prime sponser for DJ and BDC - that event wasn’t affected by those not being there , nor will they Fed Ex be affected - edit - it’s rocket mortgages that dropped BDC ( the sponsor of the next PGA event )

“IF” the likes of Thomas , McIlroy , Spieth , Schuaffle left then it would be a sit up moment

But until then 99% of the tour is the gap between the main Tour and the Champions tour - players who you don’t really expect to be challenging anymore and looking for a last pay day - plus the odd player who is looking at it all as a purely business decision like DJ and BDC and imo there aren’t many others on the tour like those two


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## evemccc (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

*They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments* which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport



Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start
		
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1)
So explain the many iterations of The Match…Tiger vs Phil, Brooks vs Bryson etc

2)
Is that the same Ryder Cup that Tiger Woods wanted appearance money to play in, and cared about it so greatly that his performance over the course of his career flew far below both that of the GOAT (Jack) and also his own talent level?


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## evemccc (Jun 21, 2022)

The Ryder Cup is way overblown — as in I think golf fans think players care way more than they do

I don’t think DJ is losing any sleep over it for his $150million


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1)
So explain the many iterations of The Match…Tiger vs Phil, Brooks vs Bryson etc

2)
Is that the same Ryder Cup that Tiger Woods wanted appearance money to play in, and cared about it so greatly that his performance over the course of his career flew far below both that of the GOAT (Jack) and also his own talent level?
		
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the match ? An exhibition match do you mean ? An unofficial PGA event that a couple of players took part in 🤷‍♂️ Couple of celebs added and some money raised for charities ? 

Ryder Cup - so the Ryder Cup is based on one player 🤷‍♂️ What about all the other players that didn’t ask for money and played in it because of what it meant to them


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## Imurg (Jun 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1)


2)
Is that the same Ryder Cup that Tiger Woods wanted appearance money to play in, and cared about it so greatly that his performance over the course of his career flew far below both that of the GOAT (Jack) and also his own talent level?
		
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To quote Old Greg...everyone makes mistakes...you have to learn from them.
I bet Tiger did...


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
The impact on the tour of losing players like DJ , Mickleson and BDC is very little , the Canadian Open was sponsered by *RDC* I think it is and they are Prime sponser for DJ and *BDC*...
		
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Get your facts straight!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The Ryder Cup is way overblown — as in I think golf fans think players care way more than they do

I don’t think DJ is losing any sleep over it for his $150million
		
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mate DJ is so chilled I doubt much upsets his laid back style


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The Ryder Cup is way overblown — as in I think golf fans think players care way more than they do
...
		
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It's certainly a BIG thing for European players - at least according to a couple of inside contacts I know/knew.
Maybe not quite so much for the USA guys initially, but as soon as they are part of the team, they seems to be - in fairly typical US 'team' style!
None of the participants are happy when they lose!


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## AddisonRoad (Jun 21, 2022)

Brooks Koepka now officially defected. Again, there is a common theme in the players they're attracting - they're not the players that inspire much!


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## AussieKB (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			the match ? An exhibition match do you mean ? An unofficial PGA event that a couple of players took part in 🤷‍♂️ Couple of celebs added and some money raised for charities ?

Ryder Cup - so the Ryder Cup is based on one player 🤷‍♂️ What about all the other players that didn’t ask for money and played in it because of what it meant to them
		
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Like Seve who was the first to ask for appearance money


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			Brooks Koepka now officially defected. Again, there is a common theme in the players they're attracting - they're not the players that inspire much!
		
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in terms of what? purist golf? no your correct, players like Rory, Matt fitzpatrick, Spieth (to name 3 i can spell!) are great golfers to watch as golfers

as entertainment they are getting who they want, people enjoy watching phil, Brooks Vs Bryson was a big hit on the socials 

Liv isnt after the purist market who already love golf, they want a different market


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539191850157977600
sorry but what?? brooks fair enough but colin???? no way.. if that happens surely that is a HUGE signing ?


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539191850157977600
sorry but what?? brooks fair enough but colin???? no way.. if that happens surely that is a HUGE signing ?
		
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Yeah morikawa is huge new blood departure


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Yeah morikawa is huge new blood departure
		
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is he actually going?? I mean i havent been keeping up ive been away this weekend.. but seriously is he going? im actually shocked

he is a 2 time major winner and current top 10 player i didnt think LIV would get any of them this soon


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Before the US Open the first rumour wad that Koepka was joining 

Then it was embellished to include - Hovland , Schuaffle, Morikawa etc


Koepka has his issue with his injuries so potentially is looking to play less events and for more rewards so you can see why he moves across- if it was 3/4 years ago when he was right at the top and looked unbeatable then it would be a huge deal

he is certainly a player that’s not been in the limelight as much lately on the course with his injuries


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 21, 2022)

They are going to just keep going and the names will get bigger, not as if they are not some  big ones already. 
The field in the next Liv event will be unrecognisable from their 1st event and that will happen again for their 3rd event. 

Make no mistake the PGA Tour has a massive problem on its hands.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Before the US Open the first rumour wad that Koepka was joining

Then it was embellished to include - Hovland , Schuaffle, Morikawa etc


Koepka has his issue with his injuries so potentially is looking to play less events and for more rewards so you can see why he moves across- if it was 3/4 years ago when he was right at the top and looked unbeatable then it would be a huge deal

he is certainly a player that’s not been in the limelight as much lately on the course with his injuries
		
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From the Forum Host! https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/rumours-ramp-up-over-next-liv-golf-signings?swinguclubhouse
I expect/ed to see more move across as the 1st US based tournament approaches - next week. There may even be more 'deserters' nearer the time as, from memory, happened for the 1st event.
I can't see the the PGA Tour being able to fight the 'desertions' purely on the basis of suspensions - already, the lifetime/equivalent ban has been effectively ruled unavailable to them, so another tactic seems required.
Morikawa's move, if it happens, would be a major coup, as he's not in the group normally written off as 'no longer competitive, but looking/happy to collect a big retirement bonus'!


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## woofers (Jun 21, 2022)

As I've asked before, any word on how LIV are going to manage who gets a game? With only 48 players at each event, how many players in total will they sign up ?


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## RW1986 (Jun 21, 2022)

Koepka confirmed 👍👍 fantastic news for them


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

woofers said:



			As I've asked before, any word on how LIV are going to manage who gets a game? With only 48 players at each event, how many players in total will they sign up ?
		
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I’m guessing they will just not enter the ones that have come from the Asian Tour - the event at Hemel had a lot of players from the Asian tour filling up the numbers , player who prob weren’t being paid to be there


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## Bdill93 (Jun 21, 2022)

woofers said:



			As I've asked before, *any word on how LIV are going to manage who gets a game*? With only 48 players at each event, how many players in total will they sign up ?
		
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Pay them off?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

woofers said:



			As I've asked before, any word on how LIV are going to manage who gets a game? With only 48 players at each event, how many players in total will they sign up ?
		
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How many of the lower players will just have signed a short term contract ? Prob a few that are holding spaces 

Imagine if brooks jnr is just holding his brothers place aha


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 21, 2022)

If the PGA were not getting twitchy before then they surely must be now. You are really getting some big names and big players switching. It's starting to get real, even the naysayers must start to see that now.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Before the US Open the first rumour wad that Koepka was joining

Then it was embellished to include - Hovland , Schuaffle, Morikawa etc


Koepka has his issue with his injuries so potentially is looking to play less events and for more rewards so you can see why he moves across- if it was 3/4 years ago when he was right at the top and looked unbeatable then it would be a huge deal

he is certainly a player that’s not been in the limelight as much lately on the course with his injuries
		
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You are unbelievable. It seems like you will make any excuse whatsoever as to why there is no concern for the PGA Tour when a big name player signs up to LIV.

Classic "nothing to see here" or burying your head in the sand syndrome.

I fully expected Brooks to sign up though, given my earlier comments.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

At this rate, it won't be long before LIV sign up Mbappe


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## Backsticks (Jun 21, 2022)

The PGA Tour is certanly very concerned. Even if all the stars dont defect, their brand of presenting the best golfers in the world  is harmed and a few more of the same level of player leaving, will mean the claim is gone. Their metaphorical stock has already fallen. Phil was passé anyway, and just Champions tour material. Buy Dustin, Bryson, and Brooks are still veryuch current top rank. Not having them devalues any PGA tour win.


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## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the PGA were not getting twitchy before then they surely must be now. You are really getting some big names and big players switching. It's starting to get real, even the naysayers must start to see that now.
		
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Who next, Paul Casey, Billy Horschel? 
Not sure if it’s already been asked, will the LIV players be allowed to play in The Open this year? Thought I’d read somewhere the Scottish Open had blocked them.


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Who next, Paul Casey, Billy Horschel?
Not sure if it’s already been asked, will the LIV players be allowed to play in The Open this year? Thought I’d read somewhere the Scottish Open had blocked them.
		
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they’ll play in The Open they’ll take the same stance as US Open 

scotch open is a co-sanctioned event with PGA Tour so they won’t be playing in that


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are unbelievable. It seems like you will make any excuse whatsoever as to why there is no concern for the PGA Tour when a big name player signs up to LIV.

Classic "nothing to see here" or burying your head in the sand syndrome.

I fully expected Brooks to sign up though, given my earlier comments.
		
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What’s your problem now ?

Is there anything incorrect in what I posted - what is your issue with people having different opinions to you , do you spend all day talking down to people

Has Koepka had injury issues - yes

Has he had to restrict the amount of events he can play - yes

Has he been out of limelight recently - yes

Koepka not being in a PGA tour event doesn’t bother me , Koepka was clearly rattled by all the comments before hand

Again I’m not bothered about him going , it’s no loss “IN MY OPINION” - just to help you understand that’s it’s about peoples opinions on the situation and you are no more right than the next person

When someone like Morikawa etc goes then I’ll stand up and take notice



Beezerk said:



			Who next, Paul Casey, Billy Horschel?
Not sure if it’s already been asked, will the LIV players be allowed to play in The Open this year? Thought I’d read somewhere the Scottish Open had blocked them.
		
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They won’t be able to play in the Scottish due to it being Co sanctioned with the PGA 

The Open they can play if they qualify same with the US Open etc


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the PGA were not getting twitchy before then they surely must be now. You are really getting some big names and big players switching. It's starting to get real, even the naysayers must start to see that now.
		
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Oh they’re twitchy but think they’ve decided who their prized assets are and who to keep happy 

Brooks wouldn’t be on that list 

Morikawa 100% will be 

The narrative from the PGA is they’ve signed up the fading stars and the hard to work with villains 

I think the PGA are panicking though but I can’t see them working with LIV


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s your problem now ?

Is there anything incorrect in what I posted - what is your issue with people having different opinions to you , do you spend all day talking down to people

Has Koepka had injury issues - yes

Has he had to restrict the amount of events he can play - yes

Has he been out of limelight recently - yes

Koepka not being in a PGA tour event doesn’t bother me , Koepka was clearly rattled by all the comments before hand

Again I’m not bothered about him going , it’s no loss “IN MY OPINION” - just to help you understand that’s it’s about peoples opinions on the situation and you are no more right than the next person

When someone like Morikawa etc goes then I’ll stand up and take notice



They won’t be able to play in the Scottish due to it being Co sanctioned with the PGA

The Open they can play if they qualify same with the US Open etc
		
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So, you are allowed an opinion (definitely so, you put it in capitals), but I am not!?

It is MY OPINION that you are unbelievable and you will dream up any excuse to deflect the importance / impact of a big name player signing up to LIV. Also, I'm not so bothered by what you think as an individual about other individual players staying or going. I'm more interested in the wider opinion of golf fans in general. Just because you or any other person does not like or care about a particular golfer does not mean that golfer has no appeal to the wider golfing world.


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## evemccc (Jun 21, 2022)

Two things:

1) A question geared towards - and about - general sports fans, rather than the die-hard fans of PGA Tour golf on TV every week…Do you think the average sports fan is aware of and regularly watches tennis outside of the 4 Majors? Who really cares about whether 1 or 2 stars aren’t playing in the Waste Management?

2) I keep thinking about the Netflix documentary on the PGA Tour….I can’t wait to watch it. But it was created to drum-up interest in the PGA Tour. How can they avoid talking about LIV Golf and the conversations amongst players and the media on the sidelines each week about who’s a part of it, who’s going across etc etc. Surely they can’t avoid it with all these defections…but I don’t see how it will be spun to portray Business as Usual with the Tour


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The PGA Tour is certanly very concerned. Even if all the stars dont defect, their brand of presenting the best golfers in the world  is harmed and a few more of the same level of player leaving, will mean the claim is gone. Their metaphorical stock has already fallen. Phil was passé anyway, and just Champions tour material. Buy Dustin, Bryson, and Brooks are still veryuch current top rank. Not having them devalues any PGA tour win.
		
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100%
The tour is depleting slowly,but probably faster than some expected.
Some will be in denial until the last big name leaves.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

Just looking at the PGA Tour winners so far this season (including Majors, excluding team pair events). They are:

Homa, Burns, Im, McIlroy, Matsuyama, Herbert, Hovland, Kokrak, Gooch, Cameron Smith, Swafford, List, Hoge, Scheffler, Niemann, Straka, Brehm, Ramey, Spaun, Spieth, Rahm, Lee, Thomas, Horschel and Fitzpatrick

Probably 16-18 names on that list that most fans don't really care much about, and could use the argument if those types of players signed up to LIV it would be no loss to the PGA Tour. Yet, if those players did sign up, you'd be losing 16-18 recent PGA Tour winners. For the golfers currently on the LIV, and therefore banned from the PGA, several of them could easily win future PGA Tour events. If they lined up in a tournament alongside many of the names on the list above, they would be considered much more likely to win by the bookmakers.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Oh they’re twitchy but think they’ve decided who their prized assets are and who to keep happy

Brooks wouldn’t be on that list

Morikawa 100% will be

The narrative from the PGA is they’ve signed up the fading stars and the hard to work with villains

I think the PGA are panicking though but I can’t see them working with LIV
		
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I would say Brooks is 100% on that list.
If the big names leaves fans will ultimately go to fewer events Tiger woods not being at an event or being at an event could be a 30% swing.
Big names now are leaving and I bet the PGA are very worried imo.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

3 massive names left in the PGA
Rory 
Thomas 
Scheffler
All others are just names


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			3 massive names left in the PGA
Rory
Thomas
Scheffler
All others are just names
		
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Rory does well considering he hasn't won a major in 8 years and how many major winners since him have left for Liv?

Yet their past it


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## Bdill93 (Jun 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Two things:

1) A question geared towards - and about - general sports fans, rather than the die-hard fans of PGA Tour golf on TV every week…Do you think the average sports fan is aware of and regularly watches tennis outside of the 4 Majors? Who really cares about whether 1 or 2 stars aren’t playing in the Waste Management?

2) I keep thinking about the Netflix documentary on the PGA Tour….I can’t wait to watch it. But it was created to drum-up interest in the PGA Tour. How can they avoid talking about LIV Golf and the conversations amongst players and the media on the sidelines each week about who’s a part of it, who’s going across etc etc. Surely they can’t avoid it with all these defections…but I don’t see how it will be spun to portray Business as Usual with the Tour
		
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I saw a lot of rumours flying around on twitter that Netflix were at the LIV event... No idea if its true though!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Oh they’re twitchy but think they’ve decided who their prized assets are and who to keep happy

Brooks wouldn’t be on that list

Morikawa 100% will be

The narrative from the PGA is they’ve signed up the fading stars and the hard to work with villains

I think the PGA are panicking though but I can’t see them working with LIV
		
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Losing someone like Morikawa would be the stand up moment - he is very relevant , in the Top 5 , winning big comps right now with the golf world at his feet

If he moves over then the PGA May well look to change their stance - or they would just carry on removing their membership - they will protect themselves

The ranking points is key for the tours - that’s the door into the majors - they were talking about them one evening on the coverage and they heard whispers that they won’t give the points to events only based on 54 holes and with limited fields etc

if the events were given ranking points then it will be a game changer and also what happens with Ryder Cup points as well


evemccc said:



			Two things:

1) A question geared towards - and about - general sports fans, rather than the die-hard fans of PGA Tour golf on TV every week…Do you think the average sports fan is aware of and regularly watches tennis outside of the 4 Majors? Who really cares about whether 1 or 2 stars aren’t playing in the Waste Management?

2) I keep thinking about the Netflix documentary on the PGA Tour….I can’t wait to watch it. But it was created to drum-up interest in the PGA Tour. How can they avoid talking about LIV Golf and the conversations amongst players and the media on the sidelines each week about who’s a part of it, who’s going across etc etc. Surely they can’t avoid it with all these defections…but I don’t see how it will be spun to portray Business as Usual with the Tour
		
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General sports fans won’t watch much outside the majors and the Ryder Cup and that’s also the same for many golf fans as well - there will be plenty who don’t bother watching tour events - I don’t watch that many beyond the big tour events


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Si 



Liverpoolphil said:



			The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport





Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport



Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players
		
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pokerjoke said:



			3 massive names left in the PGA
Rory
Thomas
Scheffler
All others are just names
		
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I'd add Rahm, and Zalatoris to that - he's become really popular in a short space of time but other than that, certainly for a lot of the US players who I have no affinity with, I'd agree that they are just names.

Not that long ago that Rory was struggling with his form, guaranteed if there'd been an option to defect to different tour, and he'd taken it, he'd have been labelled as past his best by some.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Losing someone like Morikawa would be the stand up moment - he is very relevant , in the Top 5 , winning big comps right now with the golf world at his feet

If he moves over then the PGA May well look to change their stance - or they would just carry on removing their membership - they will protect themselves

The ranking points is key for the tours - that’s the door into the majors - they were talking about them one evening on the coverage and they heard whispers that they won’t give the points to events only based on 54 holes and with limited fields etc

if the events were given ranking points then it will be a game changer and also what happens with Ryder Cup points as well
		
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Going by all the ifs and buts you keep coming up with you could soon be eating humble pie.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s your problem now ?

Is there anything incorrect in what I posted - what is your issue with people having different opinions to you , do you spend all day talking down to people

Has Koepka had injury issues - yes

Has he had to restrict the amount of events he can play - yes

Has he been out of limelight recently - yes

Koepka not being in a PGA tour event doesn’t bother me , Koepka was clearly rattled by all the comments before hand

Again I’m not bothered about him going , it’s no loss “IN MY OPINION” - just to help you understand that’s it’s about peoples opinions on the situation and you are no more right than the next person

When someone like Morikawa etc goes then I’ll stand up and take notice



They won’t be able to play in the Scottish due to it being Co sanctioned with the PGA

The Open they can play if they qualify same with the US Open etc
		
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Using actual statistics (the PGA tours PIP payments) I would argue 4 of the "biggest" 10 players in golf have now left the PGA tour.

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/0...ogram-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html

This obviously isnt a talent metric, but you cant ignore the fact that 4 of the top 10 most well known players on the planet have deferred to LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			3 massive names left in the PGA
Rory
Thomas
Scheffler
All others are just names
		
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I'd argue that Scheffler isn't even a massive name. Clearly a quality golfer, going through a really good patch, and deservedly World Number 1. But, I'm yet to know any fan that really gets excited about watching him play? Maybe more in America.

So, I'd take Scheffler off the list. However, I'd add Rahm. But after that, I agree, who are the other current PGA Players currently drawing people in to watch PGA Tour events? Maybe Spieth. After that, who really cares. I guess some of the international (non USA) golfers will still bring in the fans from their own countries. But, other than that, I don't think fans generally get excited by the prospect of seeing Cantlay, Smith, Hovland, Burns, Fitzpatrick, etc. I reckon if many had to make a choice, they'd rather see Bryson, DJ and Brooks battling it out on LIV.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Using actual statistics (the PGA tours PIP payments) I would argue 4 of the "biggest" 10 players in golf have now left the PGA tour.

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/0...ogram-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html

This obviously isnt a talent metric, but you cant ignore the fact that 4 of the top 10 most well known players on the planet have deferred to LIV.
		
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As I said previously, they have attracted those who are impacting the socials rather than those who are great golfers but dull as dishwater


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Losing someone like Morikawa would be the stand up moment - he is very relevant , in the Top 5 , winning big comps right now with the golf world at his feet

If he moves over then the PGA May well look to change their stance - or they would just carry on removing their membership - they will protect themselves

The ranking points is key for the tours - that’s the door into the majors - they were talking about them one evening on the coverage and they heard whispers that they won’t give the points to events only based on 54 holes and with limited fields etc

if the events were given ranking points then it will be a game changer and also what happens with Ryder Cup points as well
		
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Phil what happens if the LIV are succesful in obtaining ranking points?

I understand that the votes are cast by several bodies, and the PGA would need the majors to vote with them to stop the LIV getting points. 
There's no guarantee that they would do that, infact if the LIV has some serious players competing - which it has, then a vote to stop them getting points by the majors would appear as a petty allegiance with a wounded PGA Tour - with no real basis for their vote, and it certainly would just pour more fuel on the fire of division that the PGA Tour has created?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil what happens if the LIV are succesful in obtaining ranking points?

I understand that the votes are cast by several bodies, and the PGA would need the majors to vote with them to stop the LIV getting points.
There's no guarantee that they would do that, infact if the LIV has some serious players competing - which it has, then a vote to stop them getting points by the majors would appear as a petty allegiance with a wounded PGA Tour - with no real basis for their vote, and it certainly would just pour more fuel on the fire of division that the PGA Tour has created?
		
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They don't even need to be successful

They can just align with another tour or the dp world not ban their players and they get points for playing on the dp world tour 

It's really not complex as people make out


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Si







I'd add Rahm, and Zalatoris to that - he's become really popular in a short space of time but other than that, certainly for a lot of the US players who I have no affinity with, I'd agree that they are just names.

Not that long ago that Rory was struggling with his form, guaranteed if there'd been an option to defect to different tour, and he'd taken it, he'd have been labelled as past his best by some.
		
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The 3 I mention get massive followings in tournaments,Scheffler more recently 
Rahm,Zalatoris,Hovland etc all a bit equal.
Only an opinion of course


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			The 3 I mention get massive followings in tournaments,Scheffler more recently
Rahm,Zalatoris,Hovland etc all a bit equal.
Only an opinion of course
		
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That's a fair point, as I don't have Sky I dont watch much of the PGA Tour so wouldn't know who is popular out on the course.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil what happens if the LIV are succesful in obtaining ranking points?

I understand that the votes are cast by several bodies, and the PGA would need the majors to vote with them to stop the LIV getting points.
There's no guarantee that they would do that, infact if the LIV has some serious players competing - which it has, then a vote to stop them getting points by the majors would appear as a petty allegiance with a wounded PGA Tour - with no real basis for their vote, and it certainly would just pour more fuel on the fire of division that the PGA Tour has created?
		
Click to expand...

If they are successful in getting ranking points then the players that will be worried about entry in the majors will open their eyes - the events will of course carry the ranking points of the players at the events so you could have events where more ranking points are available on a LIV event - then it becomes more than just a money exhibition - and that may entice those players who’s career in blossoming etc 

I would expect that the major governing bodies to side with the established tours at the moment - the tours that have let’s be honest helped provide the platform for the majors. The working relationship between them is there 

The ET is a key element right now - they recently became more aligned with the PGA tour - hence more co sanctioned events , ET have a choice - break that alignment and look to join with LIV ( they have previously turned the money down ) or use it to gain a stronger working partnership with the PGA Tour .


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 21, 2022)

These to go before the next Liv Event.


Collin Morikawa
Cameron Smith
Patrick Cantlay
Victor Hovland
Matthew Wolf
Abraham Ancer
Rickie Fowler
Lets see if im right


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			These to go before the next Liv Event.


Collin Morikawa
Cameron Smith
Patrick Cantlay
Victor Hovland
Matthew Wolf
Abraham Ancer
Rickie Fowler
Lets see if im right 

Click to expand...

1-4 massive 
5 decent 
6-7 solid players 

Has bubba gone yet?


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			These to go before the next Liv Event.


Collin Morikawa
Cameron Smith
Patrick Cantlay
Victor Hovland
Matthew Wolf
Abraham Ancer
Rickie Fowler
Lets see if im right 

Click to expand...

If morikawa smith and hovland go well god knows what the pga tour does


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			If morikawa smith and hovland go well god knows what the pga tour does
		
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If the PGA just goes right players can come and go as they please and play for us and Liv 

Would it actually effect them that much if they have lost that list anyways?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they are successful in getting ranking points then the players that will be worried about entry in the majors will open their eyes - the events will of course carry the ranking points of the players at the events so you could have events where more ranking points are available on a LIV event - then it becomes more than just a money exhibition - and that may entice those players who’s career in blossoming etc

I would expect that the major governing bodies to side with the established tours at the moment - the tours that have let’s be honest helped provide the platform for the majors. The working relationship between them is there

The ET is a key element right now - they recently became more aligned with the PGA tour - hence more co sanctioned events , ET have a choice - break that alignment and look to join with LIV ( they have previously turned the money down ) or use it to gain a stronger working partnership with the PGA Tour .
		
Click to expand...

Personally I'd hope what the public want, and that is to have more competetive golf. The US Open have already set a precedent for allowing LIV players to compete, a precendent that the other majors will feel obliged to follow. 

You keep saying these are exhibition matches, but they simply aren't. Yes, the players are guaranteed to get paid, but the financial gains for finishing high up are simply huge. None of those players on the LIV series that have compteted on the PGA Tour or ET with a degree of success, will be happy to just turn up for the minimum amount.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 21, 2022)

The players are the power brokers here.. Make no mistake.

If enough of the worlds top 50 players go, the majors will want to have world ranking points appointed to Liv Events.
The majors cant have a situation where a good chunk of the worlds top 50 players cant qualify for their events.

They lose some kudos if all the best players are not there competing for their major trophy.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If the PGA just goes right players can come and go as they please and play for us and Liv

Would it actually effect them that much if they have lost that list anyways?
		
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This is what is bemusing - they can put all the moral responsibilitis on the players, but instead the PGA Tour have tried to force their morals on anybody that competes for them - these are grown adults, with employees, mdeia teams etc. I'm sure a few of them have felt like the PGA Tour are trying to force way too much influence and public judgement on them.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If the PGA just goes right players can come and go as they please and play for us and Liv

Would it actually effect them that much if they have lost that list anyways?
		
Click to expand...

Well, it would certainly impact the 10-14 events the weeks the LIV Tour tournaments are scheduled. Furthermore, as players have indicated that the LIV Tour will help them free up their calendar, I can imagine quite a few of them would opt NOT to play in some weeks where there is no LIV event, when they might previously have done so.

Therefore, imagine how the PGA Tour event sponsors would feel if they were sponsoring the Canadian Open, yet all the best players in the world were playing on LIV that week. They are not going to invest anywhere near the same amount into standard PGA Tour events. Furthermore, I reckon broadcasters will get interested in buying the rights for LIV if it takes off. If so, they are not going to offer anywhere near the same amount to broadcast the PGA Tour. Why would they, it is a weakened tour to what is once was.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Personally I'd hope what the public want, and that is to have more competetive golf. The US Open have already set a precedent for allowing LIV players to compete, a precendent that the other majors will feel obliged to follow.
		
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Which public ? Because let’s be honest there isn’t som universal love for the LIV tour and there are a lot of people who don’t like and a lot of people who enjoy the current Tours make up and the 4 day 72 hole events

Social media responses to posts of players leaving don’t paint the picture that it’s what the majority want - suspect it’s far from that

The US Open is “Open” - it’s available for anyone to enter and qualify , same with The Open - anyone from your local golf pro to the club champion can try to qualify - there is no membership as such , there hasn’t been any precedent set - they just continue as they always will do



			You keep saying these are exhibition matches, but they simply aren't. Yes, the players are guaranteed to get paid, but the financial gains for finishing high up are simply huge. None of those players on the LIV series that have compteted on the PGA Tour or ET with a degree of success, will be happy to just turn up for the minimum amount.
		
Click to expand...

They are exhibitions - players are getting paid vast sums just to turn up , the ones who have been a success on other tours are getting paid just to be there - regardless of how they perform , it is an exhibition

and as for Morikawa 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539260459664261120


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which public ? Because let’s be honest there isn’t som universal love for the LIV tour and there are a lot of people who don’t like and a lot of people who enjoy the current Tours make up and the 4 day 72 hole events

Social media responses to posts of players leaving don’t paint the picture that it’s what the majority want - suspect it’s far from that

The US Open is “Open” - it’s available for anyone to enter and qualify , same with The Open - anyone from your local golf pro to the club champion can try to qualify - there is no membership as such , there hasn’t been any precedent set - they just continue as they always will do


They are exhibitions - players are getting paid vast sums just to turn up , the ones who have been a success on other tours are getting paid just to be there - regardless of how they perform , it is an exhibition
		
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Come on, you can even see on this thread - on a forum that I would argue leans towards "traditional golf", that there has been a shift of opinion as more and more people voice their support for LIV.
If you go on some of the Facebook groups, there is huge support for LIV, same on Twitter - I've seen comments from You Tubers that have sizeable followings who went, they loved it. 
I can't comment on where you are getting your public opinion from, as I don't know, but I can guarantee 100%, the views I've seen are massively in favour of the LIV series, and that covers groups of tens of thousand of people.


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## Imurg (Jun 21, 2022)

Morikawa confirmed.....


He's staying on the PGA


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on, you can even see on this thread - on a forum that I would argue leans towards "traditional golf", that there has been a shift of opinion as more and more people voice their support for LIV.
If you go on some of the Facebook groups, there is huge support for LIV, same on Twitter - I've seen comments from You Tubers that have sizeable followings who went, they loved it.
I can't comment on where you are getting your public opinion from, as I don't know, but I can guarantee 100%, the views I've seen are massively in favour of the LIV series, and that covers groups of tens of thousand of people.
		
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Even on this thread there isn’t the majority in favour of it all - just because people are loud and very vocal doesn’t mean majority

this is the thread on Twitter when Koepka was rumoured


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539200017629585410
certainly doesn’t lean towards LiV golf

There is the Facebook post

https://www.facebook.com/1937065073...L9tHJewLFqBD277uEyCyYGmS4TtH1bGWceb7F9ml/?d=n

again not leaning towards LIV

Multiple other groups I’m on don’t even talk about it

Even with NLU


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539247709739261952
Maybe it’s within your bubble but then I guess you will be looking at opinions that align with the LIV

But I think you are over estimating how many are in favour of what LIV are doing

Look at the crowds at the Hemel event - had to give away tickets and even then it wasn’t full - nowhere near


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on, you can even see on this thread - on a forum that I would argue leans towards "traditional golf", that there has been a shift of opinion as more and more people voice their support for LIV.
If you go on some of the Facebook groups, there is huge support for LIV, same on Twitter - I've seen comments from You Tubers that have sizeable followings who went, they loved it.
I can't comment on where you are getting your public opinion from, as I don't know, but I can guarantee 100%, the views I've seen are massively in favour of the LIV series, and that covers groups of tens of thousand of people.
		
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Let’s be honest the first event was good for a first attempt.
Obviously now others have seen it in action and actually work,they want some of that action.
As it grows and it looks like it will grow,and rapidly by the looks of it more and more will want in.
Let’s hope though that players that dismissed it don’t get offered 100 of millions to join,they just have to because they need Liv,not the other way around.
I suspect though in the end there will be 3 tours all with ranking points,and the majors open to all.


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## timd77 (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Come on, you can even see on this thread - on a forum that I would argue leans towards "traditional golf", that there has been a shift of opinion as more and more people voice their support for LIV.*
If you go on some of the Facebook groups, there is huge support for LIV, same on Twitter - I've seen comments from You Tubers that have sizeable followings who went, they loved it.
I can't comment on where you are getting your public opinion from, as I don't know, but I can guarantee 100%, the views I've seen are massively in favour of the LIV series, and that covers groups of tens of thousand of people.
		
Click to expand...

It’s the same 10-12 people commenting and so I wouldn’t read anything into that at all personally. Not saying there hasn’t been some sort of change in opinion, but I’d say most people made their thoughts known at the start of the thread and have ‘opted out’ since then.

From what I’ve seen on Twitter when the likes of Graham mcdowell and poulter have posted, most replies are negative. Out of the 5 people I regularly play with, only 1 of them isn’t bothered (he doesn’t watch any golf anyway), the rest plus me are dead against it.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Even on this thread there isn’t the majority in favour of it all* - just because people are loud and very vocal doesn’t mean majority

Maybe it’s within your bubble but then I guess you will be looking at opinions that align with the LIV

But I think you are over estimating how many are in favour of what LIV are doing

Look at the crowds at the Hemel event - had to give away tickets and even then it wasn’t full - nowhere near
		
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That's quite clearly not what I said.

The NLU account is absolutely anti-LIV - as are most of them with blue ticks - you can't possibly take the reactions to their views as "general"

You'll be putting up tweets from Brandel Chamblee next as evidence


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

timd77 said:



			It’s the same 10-12 people commenting and so I wouldn’t read anything into that at all personally. Not saying there hasn’t been some sort of change in opinion, but I’d say most people made their thoughts known at the start of the thread and have ‘opted out’ since then.

From what I’ve seen on Twitter when the likes of Graham mcdowell and poulter have posted, most replies are negative. Out of the 5 people I regularly play with, only 1 of them isn’t bothered (he doesn’t watch any golf anyway), the rest plus me are dead against it.
		
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Conversely, just been on the Golf Mates Facebook page, a guy has posted about Brooks being a has been, I'd say about 60 to 75% of the responses are supportive of him and the LIV series.
And I can find posts like that on many many other groups.

Rick Shiels, biggest influencer in golf has made a vid today about Koepka.

Read the comments and tell me I'm wrong...


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Conversely, just been on the Golf Mates Facebook page, a guy has posted about Brooks being a has been, I'd say about 60 to 75% of the responses are supportive of him and the LIV series.
And I can find posts like that on many many other groups.

Rick Shiels, biggest influencer in golf has made a vid today about Koepka.

Read the comments and tell me I'm wrong...







Click to expand...

Save your efforts mate, brick wall is up


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## timd77 (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Conversely, just been on the Golf Mates Facebook page, a guy has posted about Brooks being a has been, I'd say about 60 to 75% of the responses are supportive of him and the LIV series.
And I can find posts like that on many many other groups.

Rick Shiels, biggest influencer in golf has made a vid today about Koepka.

Read the comments and tell me I'm wrong...







Click to expand...

You’re correct based on those comments so far, a lot of support for it, or at least not anti-LIV. But I’m not sure that people who follow RS and comment on videos are the sort of people who watch golf on tv anyway. He’s more of an equipment influencer and golf coach.

I wouldn’t put my eyes and ears through the golfmates stuff personally!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

timd77 said:



			You’re correct based on those comments so far, a lot of support for it, or at least not anti-LIV. But I’m not sure that people who follow RS and comment on videos are the sort of people who watch golf on tv anyway. He’s more of an equipment influencer and golf coach.

I wouldn’t put my eyes and ears through the golfmates stuff personally!
		
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However this has been one of my main points since day one . This is the audience Liv is going for 

They aren't pushing hard to get the people who already watch golf and post on a forum about golf 

We aren't the target


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

Comments on NLU tweets aren’t to be trusted but Rick Shiels YouTube comments are 

And they say the walls up 

The advocacy and shilling from posters on here baffles me like


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## timd77 (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			However this has been one of my main points since day one . This is the audience Liv is going for

They aren't pushing hard to get the people who already watch golf and post on a forum about golf

We aren't the target
		
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This we can agree on.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Comments on NLU tweets aren’t to be trusted but Rick Shiels YouTube comments are

And they say the walls up 

The advocacy and shilling from posters on here baffles me like
		
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You can trust who you want, I'm just posting evidence that supports my view. It's very, very easy to find.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rick Shiels, biggest influencer in golf
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Jimaroid said:







Click to expand...

2.1 million subscribers
A podcast now 
Second channel (155k subscription)

His videos get 500k views on average it seems  (quick glance)

Started from just being an average pga pro 

Makes a good wage off it 

And was on talksport earlier with his charity walk 

So he is not a big influencer? Pray tell why?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Jimaroid said:







Click to expand...

Go on, give me yours.


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2022)

As there is plenty of speculation and crystal ball gazing on going,  here are some further musings...

As things stand (may change) liv are restricted to 48 players. If as some suggest their goal is mainly the big media draw players, then could end up with a situation where PGA Tour is showcasing competitive younger players until they become 'big names'.
Now consider this, PGA Tour have thrown massive $ at trying to position the Players as a major. Imagine if they opened it up, then it may finally start to be viewed as one. If next year it is restricted then the case weakens (IMO).


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Personally I'd hope what the public want, and that is to have more competetive golf. The US Open have already set a precedent for allowing LIV players to compete, a precendent that the other majors will feel obliged to follow.
...
		
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I don't believe a 'precedent' has been set at all! They are simply applying their own qualification rules - as I would expect to happen in the future! It's what happens when the past points gained start dropping off when some intervention might be required if LIV tournaments haven't been allowed to award OWGR points.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Conversely, just been on the Golf Mates Facebook page, a guy has posted about Brooks being a has been, I'd say about 60 to 75% of the responses are supportive of him and the LIV series.
And I can find posts like that on many many other groups.

Rick Shiels, biggest influencer in golf has made a vid today about Koepka.

Read the comments and tell me I'm wrong...







Click to expand...

Did he really say “baddie team” 🤦‍♂️ And compare to might ducks 

People can pick and chose the social media that aligns with their opinion - I have no idea who NLU supports or what “blue ticks” support - I’ll read posts and you can see the opinion 

it’s very much marmite right now for a number of reason 

The players going aren’t always the most “likeable”

The level of money being given to people

the format - some like it quick and done ( maybe they have short attention spans etc ) where as some prefer the 72 holes 


There will no doubt be support for it from certain areas - it may well be the people that enjoy watching hackers play golf on blogs etc - are there is a target audience for that , no idea what the percentage is 

Out of the conversations around the two swindles I play in , the majority don’t like it , most turned down tickets , and think the odd one watched it


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## Jimaroid (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Go on, give me yours.
		
Click to expand...

Tiger Woods of course.

Step out of your YouTube bubble for just one second and you might realise just how ridiculous you're sounding.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 21, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Tiger Woods of course.

Step out of your YouTube bubble for just one second and you might realise just how ridiculous you're sounding.
		
Click to expand...

He's not an influencer, he's influential.

Step into 2022 and you might just realise....


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## Jimaroid (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's not an influencer, he's influential.

Step into 2022 and you might just realise....
		
Click to expand...

I'm fine where I am, thanks, but you might want to learn about semantics before you try that reasoning again.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Morikawa confirmed.....


He's staying on the PGA
		
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I'm a little disappointed - but was surprised to see his name was on the list of 'deserters' in the first place.
It would certainly have shaken The PGA Tour administration leadership up, which for some reason, I'm a fan of.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 21, 2022)

You can tell there's no football at present as the bickering has moved onto here....


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## BrianM (Jun 21, 2022)

PGA Tour aren’t bothered in the slightest eh…….🤣🤣🤣

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...ce=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest&fs=e&s=cl


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

Like saying the True Geordie is the biggest football influencer or the f2freestylers


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			PGA Tour aren’t bothered in the slightest eh…….🤣🤣🤣

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...ce=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest&fs=e&s=cl

Click to expand...

Thought there was zero interest in these limited field gimmick events


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			'''
Rick Shiels, *biggest influencer in golf* has made a vid today about Koepka.

Read the comments and tell me I'm wrong...







Click to expand...

Where/how is that ranking documented?
Not contradicting you; simply looking for authoratative confirmation - as, to me, he doesn't seem to be an 'influencer' at all - at least not as I understand the term. His attitude to Nike suggest similar.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			These to go before the next Liv Event.


Collin Morikawa
Cameron Smith
Patrick Cantlay
Victor Hovland
Matthew Wolf
Abraham Ancer
Rickie Fowler
Lets see if im right 

Click to expand...

1. No chance
2. I doubt it
3. Couldn't care less
4. I hope not
5. Probably, but see 3
6. Gone already. See 3
7. He should. I'll give him a lift


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			PGA Tour aren’t bothered in the slightest eh…….🤣🤣🤣

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...ce=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest&fs=e&s=cl

Click to expand...

As I predicted in post 1116
20 million per event,certainly didn’t take long.
There not worried though because the players are loyal to the tour.
If that was the case why do anything.
I hope it filters down more to the lesser known players.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			As I predicted in post 1116
20 million per event,certainly didn’t take long.
There not worried though because the players are loyal to the tour.
If that was the case why do anything.
I hope it filters down more to the lesser known players.
		
Click to expand...

Won't this potentially step all over the DP world tour?


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## banjofred (Jun 21, 2022)

Please make a world tour.....periods of time in the US, Europe, Australia, etc etc......let them move around the world.....and if golf/tour/mega golf goes away....it won't change my life an iota. It's just golf.......


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

Appears the PGA Tour is fighting back: link to Golf Digest


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Won't this potentially step all over the DP world tour?
		
Click to expand...

Do you think Monahan really cares?
His absolute focus is 'what benefits/challenges The PGA Tour'


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## PieMan (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Go on, give me yours.
		
Click to expand...

I'd say Tiger Woods...........! 😉


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## Depreston (Jun 21, 2022)

Valkenburg says the PGA should buy the HoF then declare the players a major


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Do you think Monahan really cares?
His absolute focus is 'what benefits/challenges The PGA Tour'
		
Click to expand...

As it should be. He may see the benefit of closer union with Europe, though, both to give more opportunities for up and coming players, the odd big payday for bigger names, and to push out LIV. The World Tour makes a lot of sense. 12 or 14 top US events, 7 or 8 top European Tour events (PGA, Irish, Scottish, British Masters, Dubai, Spanish Open, European Open, 1 in Scandinavia), 1 or 2 in Oz, 1 in ZA (or not given the enthusiasm of ZA players for LIV) .....

Maybe something similar between Challenge and Korn Ferry Tours too.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			2.1 million subscribers
A podcast now
Second channel (155k subscription)

His videos get 500k views on average it seems  (quick glance)

Started from just being an average pga pro

Makes a good wage off it

And was on talksport earlier with his charity walk

So he is not a big influencer? Pray tell why?
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe he really attempts to 'influence'! Certainly not in the way of traditional 'influencers'.


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## PieMan (Jun 21, 2022)

The game changers for LIV - IMHO - are Tiger and Rory. They're the only two I would say who are the current truly global golf stars who most non-golfers would recognise (if that's the audience LIV are trying to get to).

Not Brooks, not Bryson, not DJ. Phil possibly but he's pretty much irrelevant now I'm terms of competing at the very highest level.


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## sunshine (Jun 21, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe he really attempts to 'influence'! Certainly not in the way of traditional 'influencers'.
		
Click to expand...

Of course RS is an influencer. That's what he spends all his time doing.

But he is a long long way from being the biggest influencer in golf.


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## sunshine (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The NLU account is absolutely anti-LIV - as are most of them with blue ticks - you can't possibly take the reactions to their views as "general"
		
Click to expand...

So you are dismissing any account with a blue tick. The blue ticks are the accounts with have been verified as authentic, notable and active - i.e. popular and reputable. You choose to rely on random trolls and spam accounts for your views?


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## sunshine (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's not an influencer, he's influential.

Step into 2022 and you might just realise....
		
Click to expand...

Comedy


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## sunshine (Jun 21, 2022)

I got an email today from DP World Tour, announcing Jax Jones as the headline act at the PGA Championship concert this year. Looks like they are trying to get down with the kids too.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I got an email today from DP World Tour, announcing Jax Jones as the headline act at the PGA Championship concert this year. Looks like they are trying to get down with the kids too. 

Click to expand...

Got that too. Asked the kids who this was, they didn't know either. 

If they bring in Arcade Fire or The National, I'm there, but the kids won't be. I remember the says when Jimmy Tarbuck was the golf event's entertainment of choice.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Won't this potentially step all over the DP world tour?
		
Click to expand...

Potentially 
The DP world tour has been very quiet in all this so far. 
The CEO is very astute and actually achieved good things over the last few years .
I think they will be absolutely fine once the dust settles.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Potentially
The DP world tour has been very quiet in all this so far.
The CEO is very astute and actually achieved good things over the last few years .
I think they will be absolutely fine once the dust settles.
		
Click to expand...

The DP World Tour is screwed if they become seen as the 3rd Tour. They need to get together with the PGA Tour pronto.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's not an influencer, he's influential.

Step into 2022 and you might just realise....
		
Click to expand...

😂 Step on to this planet and you might just realise…….


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2022)

Conor Moore gives his take


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## BiMGuy (Jun 21, 2022)

Has there actually been conformation of Brooks yet? All I can see is speculation.


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Has there actually been conformation of Brooks yet? All I can see is speculation.
		
Click to expand...

He does like to play the media. He apparently removed PGA Tour from his twitter bio which set things off.


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## Backsticks (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Thought there was zero interest in these limited field gimmick events
		
Click to expand...

There is zero interest.

The interest they are ostensibly getting at the moment isn't  for the golf, it's for the pro golf civil war.


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2022)

saving_par said:



			You can tell there's no football at present as the bickering has moved onto here....

Click to expand...

Silver lining  - golf forum post count actually discussing golf related stuff must be well up!


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2022)

Everyday is a school day, apparently Ancer cannot represent the International President's Cup team now that he's no longer a member of the North American tour 🤔


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## Backsticks (Jun 21, 2022)

IainP said:



			Everyday is a school day, apparently Ancer cannot represent the International President's Cup team now that he's no longer a member of the North American tour 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Being an event created and operated by the PGA Tour, why would anyone think he could ? 🤔


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

IainP said:



			Everyday is a school day, apparently Ancer cannot represent the International President's Cup team now that he's no longer a member of the North American tour 🤔
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure that would depend on whether he was able to play on another tour where OWGR points could be gained. But I'm also sure that he considered that when he decided to go to LIV. I don't think it means all that much to him anyway - and it's a strange situation for him anyway. He was born in US and qualified via PGA Tour, but resides in Mexico, so qualifies for International - and was top scores in Melbourne.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 21, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Has there actually been conformation of Brooks yet? All I can see is speculation.
		
Click to expand...

150 million and he’s only the 19th best in the world .


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			150 million and he’s only the 19th best in the world .
		
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BiMGuy said:



			Has there actually been conformation of Brooks yet? All I can see is speculation.
		
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Still only speculation as far as I can see. Somewhat guarded articles by Sky, Torygraph and ESPN suggest it though. No conformation from 'the man' though.


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2022)

GM suggesting he's maybe going to play at the Travelers so will announce it after he's teed off.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Still only speculation as far as I can see. Somewhat guarded articles by Sky, Torygraph and ESPN suggest it though. No conformation from 'the man' though.
		
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He's withdrawn from the Travellers, so I guess the announcement is imminent.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's withdrawn from the Travellers, so I guess the announcement is imminent.
		
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The text in the post you quoted still applies though doesn't it! Until_ that_ changes, kindly stop wasting my time quoting me with simply more speculation (I'm more than capable of doing that myself.)!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Some precious darlings on here.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is what is bemusing - they can put all the moral responsibilitis on the players, but instead the PGA Tour have tried to force their morals on anybody that competes for them - these are grown adults, with employees, mdeia teams etc. I'm sure a few of them have felt like the PGA Tour are trying to force way too much influence and public judgement on them.
		
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First time I've seen 'The PGA Tour' and 'morals' seen together in a 'positive' way! They are a business, albeit 'non-profit', but providing plenty of benefits for members and employees. Monahan himself apparently earns around $4M from his position, so certainly has a vested interested in maintaining The PGA Tour's dominant position!


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




Some precious darlings on here.
		
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And some who seem more like agents (paid or otherwise) of LIV than independent posters!


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2022)




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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2022)

I am interested in how the new tour will affect the Golf World Rankings.
Top 60 all from the new tour in a years time.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am interested in how the new tour will affect the Golf World Rankings.
Top 60 all from the new tour in a years time.

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That's what Monahan biggest fear is! Though with fields limited to 48, I'm not sure about 'Top 60'!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.
		
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It will be interesting to see what kind of reception they get at St Andrews


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## Wilson (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.
		
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It's not the R&A's fight, in the same way it's not the USGA's fight, so they could play last week - they can stay apolitical in the whole saga, but the LIV players who aren't exempt from wins, will struggle to qualify due to their OWGR, and the R&A/USGA can sit behind their qualifying criteria, and stay well out of the fight.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It will be interesting to see what kind of reception they get at St Andrews
		
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Hopefully no different to anybody else so we can focus on the 150th Open.


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## JamesR (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.
		
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Have they stated if it's just for this year, ie, not changing the qualifying criteria mis way through the qualifying process. Or if it's a guaranteed entry (say for top 50 etc) going forward?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.
		
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Why would the Open ban them? Are the LIV players in breach of any contract they signed with the Open? Do they no longer meet the qualifying criteria?

I really am not sure what grounds they could ban LIV players, and therefore cannot possibly see how it is a kick in the gonads for Monahan. It is like saying "Alton Towers have not banned LIV players from attending their theme park, another kick in the gonads for Monahan"


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## Backsticks (Jun 22, 2022)

They cant completely stay out of the fight. They have a reputation as major tournaments to maintain, so will have to modify their criteria for qualification. Make top 20 on the LIV, or any LIV winners, or something, eligible to play in the Open and US Open.
They cannot co.promise themselves by excluding a significant number of what are clearly world level golfers, because of a commercial arm wrestle between two American and Saudi ventures.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Have they stated if it's just for this year, ie, not changing the qualifying criteria mis way through the qualifying process. Or if it's a guaranteed entry (say for top 50 etc) going forward?
		
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_Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive of The R&A, said: "The Open is golf's original championship and since it was first played in 1860, openness has been fundamental to its ethos and unique appeal.

"Players who are exempt or have earned a place through qualifying for The 150th Open in accordance with the entry terms and conditions will be able to compete in the Championship at St Andrews. We are focused on staging a world class championship in July and celebrating this truly historic occasion for golf. We will invest the proceeds of The Open, as we always do, for the benefit of golf which reflects our purpose to ensure that the sport is thriving 50 years from now." _


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. *Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan*.
		
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Absolute twarubbish! As per a previous post, they are simply applying _their published qualification rules_. And that's exactly what Slumbes stated!
It's what happens (next year) when the OWGR points drop off - if LIV isn't able to award OWGR points - that will determine whether 'sanctioning' has been performed.
It'll be 'interesting' to see how the ability to award OWGR points situation/request is handled, as that's an area where The PGA Tour actually has significant influence. Personally, I want to see the best players in the world playing at the Majors, irrespective of what tour they play!


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## JamesR (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



_Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive of The R&A, said: "The Open is golf's original championship and since it was first played in 1860, openness has been fundamental to its ethos and unique appeal._

_"Players who are exempt or have earned a place through qualifying for The 150th Open in accordance with the entry terms and conditions will be able to compete in the Championship at St Andrews. We are focused on staging a world class championship in July and celebrating this truly historic occasion for golf. We will invest the proceeds of The Open, as we always do, for the benefit of golf which reflects our purpose to ensure that the sport is thriving 50 years from now." _

Click to expand...

So he's only stated that they are free to play this year. A bit like Mike Whan said re: the US Open. If people have qualified for this year, they are in.

No comment anywhere about future right to play?


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2022)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It will be interesting to see what kind of reception they get at St Andrews
		
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I’m guessing it will be positive like for those players at the US Open. It would be funny if some drunken lout started shouting abuse though 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open sanctioning LIV players to take part this year. Another finger flick in the gonads for Monahan.
		
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That’s no different to the US Open 🤷‍♂️ The players qualified already can play and anyone not qualified can go through the qualifying process as with any other golfer not affiliated to any tour - that’s not new news 

The issue will be in the future will be how the players qualify without ranking points- they will need to go through local , regional and final Qualfying to enter


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## rksquire (Jun 22, 2022)

Koepka hardly a surprise, although reports that he is a has-been / past it are more than a bit exaggerated - it's a big blow, and clearly shows the players aren't to bothered about Majors or Legacy.

The move by the PGA Tour is reactive, and rather than being innovative it's simply thrown money at the problem and 'copied' some of the format - including some of the very things top players said they weren't interested in (no cuts, removing competition, rich get richer, no guarantees etc.). 

The field for the DPWT BMW event this weekend is greatly enhanced by the presence of some of the LIV guys.  It would certainly be a proper 'strategic' move by Pelley to facilitate the LIV guys on his tour - the benefit to both parties being more beneficial than an alliance between the LIV and the Asian Tour or indeed the PGA Tour and the DPWT.

If Hovland moves I'll be disappointed, but at what point do we accept that this is gathering momentum?  Downplaying the guys that have left is one thing (I've read some extremely disparaging comments about the defactors from publications that only months ago would have been fawning over the same characters), but Top 20 players have now moved; if some Top 10 players go will the narrative change to it's only respected if they get a Top 5 player?  Or Top 1?

As an aside, I'm waiting for the BBC and Sky journos to ask Antony Joshua if there's anywhere he won't fight for money?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s no different to the US Open 🤷‍♂️ The players qualified already can play and anyone not qualified can go through the qualifying process as with any other golfer not affiliated to any tour - that’s not new news

The issue will be in the future will be how the players qualify without ranking points- they will need to go through local , regional and final Qualfying to enter
		
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But as I alluded yesterday, it's an indication that the people who decide who gets OWGR points, don't have any issues with LIV players competing in their events, and might well sanction the LIV tour being awarded those points.


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## HeftyHacker (Jun 22, 2022)

A part of me does hope the R&A do make the LIV players go through Open Qualifying. Would be great to go and watch at one of the local courses!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But as I alluded yesterday, it's an indication that the people who decide who gets OWGR points, don't have any issues with LIV players competing in their events, and might well sanction the LIV tour being awarded those points.
		
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It’s not an indication of anything 

it’s basically saying the the comp is an “open” so it’s Open to all regardless of what affiliation they have.

Ok here is a question 

Normally the various tours around the world have final Open spots for players not already qualified 

For example the Scottish Open has some spaces for the Open and also the equivalent PGA event has same with the Asian Tour etc  - so how many spots have been opened up for the LIV Events ?


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## Wilson (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But as I alluded yesterday, it's an indication that the people who decide who gets OWGR points, don't have any issues with LIV players competing in their events, and might well sanction the LIV tour being awarded those points.
		
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Not sure I agree with that, I suspect it's more that they currently have no reason not to allow them to play.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not an indication of anything

it’s basically saying the the comp is an “open” so it’s Open to all regardless of what affiliation they have.

Ok here is a question

Normally the various tours around the world have final Open spots for players not already qualified

For example the Scottish Open has some spaces for the Open and also the equivalent PGA event has same with the Asian Tour etc  - so how many spots have been opened up for the LIV Events ?
		
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None as far as I'm aware, but then, 4 weeks ago the LIV didn't really have more than a couple of noteable players signed up. The landscape has changed rapidly since then. 
In 12 months time, it will be a completely different scenario.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But as I alluded yesterday, it's an indication that the people who decide who gets OWGR points, don't have any issues with LIV players competing in their events, and might well sanction the LIV tour being awarded those points.
		
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More hopeful rubbish! It's purely conformation that they 'obey their own rules'!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			More hopeful rubbish! It's purely conformation that they 'obey their own rules'!
		
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Ok, explain to me why they WON'T sanction the LIV getting OWGR points - on what grounds will they turn them down, when they now have players competing who are in the current crop of top 20 players in the world?


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, explain to me why they WON'T sanction the LIV getting OWGR points - on what grounds will they turn them down, when they now have players competing who are in the current crop of top 20 players in the world?
		
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I'm in no position to really answer with any confidence of accuracy. But my guess would be because they fear the possible damage to their own Tours that LIV's entry could have. And, as that's their job(s) they would not be doing their duty to their Tours if they agreed to something that would 'damage' their Tours. Would a CEO consciously agree to something knowing that agreement would damage the business? Would you agree to something likely to hamper your son's golfing progress?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 22, 2022)

Is anyone wondering whether LIV golf have employed some computer nerd to simply spend their entire life signing up to any golf related forum, and just constantly praise LIV Tour without question!?

It would seem like a feasible marketing strategy. Not saying it is happening, but a thought just crossed my mind that there is at least one poster in here that I don't ever remember having posted pre LIV. Yet now they are a regular poster, almost exclusively within this thread. Maybe it is just my cynical mind, and I'm sure nothing of the sort would happen. Although, if the major broadcasters are reluctant to promote LIV, I'm sure LIV need to find many other avenues to exploit.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2022)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It will be interesting to see what kind of reception they get at St Andrews
		
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knowing Scotland it'll be hosing it down with rain and 50mph winds


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## Depreston (Jun 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm in no position to really answer with any confidence of accuracy. But my guess would be because they fear the possible damage to their own Tours that LIV's entry could have. And, as that's their job(s) they would not be doing their duty to their Tours if they agreed to something that would 'damage' their Tours. Would a CEO consciously agree to something knowing that agreement would damage the business? Would you agree to something likely to hamper your son's golfing progress?
		
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I think they might reject it but i'm sure the court of arbitration for sport would tell them to back down

but things will get very very messy


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## woofers (Jun 22, 2022)

OK, let’s be a bit radical.
Play whichever tour you like, PGA, LIV, DP, Asian.
Scrap OWGR points altogether. 
The Open and US Open allow past winners from up to 5 years ago, everyone else can go through a qualification process, be that winning a tour event or regional / national qualifying.
The Masters can / will do their own thing as they usually do.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I think they might reject it but i'm sure the court of arbitration for sport would tell them to back down
...
		
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I don't believe a CAS approach would be allowed. CAS Rules require any involvement of CAS to have been agreed between the parties involved in the first place!


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

woofers said:



			OK, let’s be a bit radical.
Play whichever tour you like, PGA, LIV, DP, Asian.
Scrap OWGR points altogether.
The Open and US Open allow past winners from up to 5 years ago, everyone else can go through a qualification process, be that winning a tour event or regional / national qualifying.
The Masters can / will do their own thing as they usually do.
		
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Or simply allow LIV to allocate OWGR points - based on the existing formula!!


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## JamesR (Jun 22, 2022)

Whatever happened to Charlie Hoffman and his participation in the Bonesaw league?
I though he was one of the big cheerleaders


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Whatever happened to Charlie Hoffman and his participation in the Bonesaw league?
I though he was one of the big cheerleaders
		
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Wasn't that simply part of a rant subsequent to a penalty incurred at Waste Open?
I knew a Tour Caddie (frequently for Alex Cejka when he's in UK) with the same nickname as his - 'Seagull' - and, apparently, for the same reason (liable to defecates on folk, and from a great height).


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## AussieKB (Jun 22, 2022)

woofers said:



			OK, let’s be a bit radical.
Play whichever tour you like, PGA, LIV, DP, Asian.
Scrap OWGR points altogether.
The Open and US Open allow past winners from up to 5 years ago, everyone else can go through a qualification process, be that winning a tour event or regional / national qualifying.
The Masters can / will do their own thing as they usually do.
		
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The Masters is a joke....field of 90 compared to the other 3 majors of a field of 155


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## sunshine (Jun 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is anyone wondering whether LIV golf have employed some computer nerd to simply spend their entire life signing up to any golf related forum, and just constantly praise LIV Tour without question!?

It would seem like a feasible marketing strategy. Not saying it is happening, but a thought just crossed my mind that there is at least one poster in here that I don't ever remember having posted pre LIV. Yet now they are a regular poster, almost exclusively within this thread. Maybe it is just my cynical mind, and I'm sure nothing of the sort would happen. Although, if the major broadcasters are reluctant to promote LIV, I'm sure LIV need to find many other avenues to exploit.
		
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I watched a history programme the other day about the Russian Revolution and how afterwards Stalin used propoganda to rewrite history, negate his opponents and strengthen his position.

The amount of spin and misinformation being posted on this thread is unbelievable. Just feels like somebody is being paid to churn out fake news.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 22, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The Masters is a joke....field of 90 compared to the other 3 majors of a field of 155
		
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Whats wrong with that?

How often do players ranked 70-155 win the other majors?


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The Masters is a joke....field of 90 compared to the other 3 majors of a field of 155
		
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It does, however, mean that the entire field can finish even with Sandy Lyle hacking it around!


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## Ethan (Jun 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not an indication of anything

it’s basically saying the the comp is an “open” so it’s Open to all regardless of what affiliation they have.

Ok here is a question

Normally the various tours around the world have final Open spots for players not already qualified

For example the Scottish Open has some spaces for the Open and also the equivalent PGA event has same with the Asian Tour etc  - so how many spots have been opened up for the LIV Events ?
		
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The LIV Tour came along after a lot of players had already qualified for The Open, so I think the position taken by the R&A is reasonable. However, they are capable of putting new regulations in place before next year. 

If the LIV Tour does get OWGR points, what weight should be given - same as PGA Tour, same as mid ranking DP World Tour, same as Korn Ferry Tour? The fields are small, do not have a lot of strength in depth, with a lot of low ranking players and only a smattering of higher ranking players, some of whom are on the slide. 

I doubt Augusta will extend their automatic place offered to full field PGA Tour events.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 22, 2022)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It will be interesting to see what kind of reception they get at St Andrews
		
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I'm sure grown ups will behave outside the internet.. I mean the yanks did. . and they are far more vocal


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's what Monahan biggest fear is! Though with fields limited to 48, I'm not sure about 'Top 60'!
		
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It will be 48 to 60 in a year's time.
Joking apart.........having the rankings based on money won was always a skewed idea.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’m guessing it will be positive like for those players at the US Open. It would be funny if some drunken lout started shouting abuse though 😂
		
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It is in Fife, so bound to happen.
At least they are cultured enough not to shout 'get in the hole'


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			knowing Scotland it'll be hosing it down with rain and 50mph winds
		
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Ah but that is at 10 am, by 2pm it will be roasting and calm and visitors from Sauff Lonon will be complaining that there is nowhere to store their umbrellas or waterproofs and no free water.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

So, todays news.

Brooks now confirmed, and the money that Monahan has found to pay the players more - he already had from TV deals. Clearly undersetimated the threat of LIV, and is now trying to patch up the mess he's allowed to be created.

Maybe he was just waiting to see how succesful a no cut, big prize, limited field concept was before he decided to copy it?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Field announced for Portland..... with 3 to be confirmed.

Bryson taking the captaincy of The Crushers for this event - had to be didn't it?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539673720666689536


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## pauljames87 (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Field announced for Portland..... with 3 to be confirmed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539673720666689536

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Who missed out from last one?

Interesting the 3 to be announced I reckon they will be nobodies unless they can get another person in sharpo


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Who missed out from last one?

Interesting the 3 to be announced I reckon they will be nobodies unless they can get another person in sharpo
		
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Oggletree is one I think, not sure on the others.

The 3 could be biggish names that just want to compete in this weekends tournament, guess we'll have to see, but if they were nobodies, surely they'd have kept the ones from Centurion?


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## garyinderry (Jun 22, 2022)

I'm surprised Luke Donald hasnt joined his mates for one last pay day.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Oggletree is one I think, not sure on the others.

The 3 could be biggish names that just want to compete in this weekends tournament, guess we'll have to see, but if they were nobodies, surely they'd have kept the ones from Centurion?
		
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That's my point they will be but won't announce until they hear if the big names will sign or not


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## Ethan (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Field announced for Portland..... with 3 to be confirmed.

Bryson taking the captaincy of The Crushers for this event - had to be didn't it?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539673720666689536

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That team format is awful. It needs to go.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 22, 2022)

Pretty sure the 3 Coming Soons will be 3 more major announcements. 
Otherwise why not just name them now?? 

Liv have showed already their tactic to drip feed news to keep everyone engaged, keep in the news and talking about it


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That team format is awful. It needs to go.
		
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Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr will cement it's place in golfing folklore. ;-)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Pretty sure the 3 Coming Soons will be 3 more major announcements.
Otherwise why not just name them now??

Liv have showed already their tactic to drip feed news to keep everyone engaged, keep in the news and talking about it
		
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They will be spaces left for people to qualify from an Asian Event - (Korean Open ) just like they did at Centurion- a few spots were given for high places in the Slaley Hall event


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## Harry Putter (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr will cement it's place in golfing folklore. ;-)
		
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Yawn, I was more excited when examining the contents of my hankerchief when I had Covid.


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## Depreston (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, todays news.

Brooks now confirmed, and the money that Monahan has found to pay the players more - he already had from TV deals. Clearly undersetimated the threat of LIV, and is now trying to patch up the mess he's allowed to be created.

Maybe he was just waiting to see how succesful a no cut, big prize, limited field concept was before he decided to copy it?
		
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Or maybe he was trying to replenish the reserves he’d dipped in to keep a pga tour going during covid

$800 mil he was keeping from the players according to Phil … it was $300 mil before covid hit

They don’t have an unlimited pot of money like PIF

Monahan : "If this is an arms race, and if the only weapons here are dollar bills the PGA Tour can't compete with a foreign monarchy that is spending billions of dollars in an attempt to buy the game of golf."


It’s bang on what he’s said there tbh


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## Ethan (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr will cement it's place in golfing folklore. ;-)
		
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I could think of a different team name for a team with BdC, Reed and Perez.


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## Backsticks (Jun 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That team format is awful. It needs to go.
		
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I think it is probably one of the worst ideas in sport ever. Possibly one of the worst ideas in anything ever. Possibly simply the worst. Can anyone else conceive of someone so out of touch as to come up with the thought that this would be a good idea? Was this an idea from Saudi Arabia itself, where its great history and feel for golf and sport in general is right down there with possibly no nations below it. If this actually came from Greg and company with a background in golf, then, can a human mind really be warped from reality to that extent ? Even the names. They are sooooooo bad. No, I cannot think of a worse idea.
LIV deserve an award for coming up with what at least will live on as the go to benchmark for bad ideas - "pineapple on a pizza ? Yuck, that's a LIV idea".


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## big_matt (Jun 22, 2022)

surprised we havent heard much fallout from the sponsors of the players. If you are Nike, for example, and you are paying a huge amount for a player to wear your clothes and shoes because they are on major tv networks every week around the world, are there not contractual implications if the player decides to move to a competition that doesnt even have a tv deal yet?


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## Harry Putter (Jun 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it is probably one of the worst ideas in sport ever. Possibly one of the worst ideas in anything ever. Possibly simply the worst. Can anyone else conceive of someone so out of touch as to come up with the thought that this would be a good idea? Was this an idea from Saudi Arabia itself, where its great history and feel for golf and sport in general is right down there with possibly no nations below it. If this actually came from Greg and company with a background in golf, then, can a human mind really be warped from reality to that extent ? Even the names. They are sooooooo bad. No, I cannot think of a worse idea.
LIV deserve an award for coming up with what at least will live on as the go to benchmark for bad ideas - "pineapple on a pizza ? Yuck, that's a LIV idea".
		
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It was dreamt up by a 30-something year old marketing executive who thought they had a career until they stood in front of a flipchart and 20 suits and said they've got a good idea... let's ignore the past 150 years of golfing tradition and devise a format that people enjoy and follow something like the IPL team thing.. lets make up whacky team names that will draw the ignorant punters in, make pots of cash and no mistake.  Sorry mate, golf is an individual sport and you bombed out.  If you think I wake up in the morning looking forward to the Perez/Reed team score then think again...


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## 4LEX (Jun 22, 2022)

Still a field of some of the most unsavoury players in the world with limited star appeal.

DJ, Bryson and Brooks are the only top tier players in my view. DJ is way past his peak and will struggle to win another major, Bryson has wrecked his body and has a limited shelf life, while Brooks looks half the player he was. Easy decision for all three to take the money and I don't blame them on a professional point of view.

However as a spectacle, LIV need way more than a shotgun and the current limited field to really take away the spotlight and kudos from the PGA Tour.

I also doubt the PGA Tour have been sitting on this money all along, it's most likely a haul of the major sponsors backing the tour in a fight for survival.


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## IainP (Jun 22, 2022)

As has been mentioned,  the qualifying conditions for the opens were set months ago so no surprise at all with announcements.
I wouldn't be surprised if the majors aren't acutely aware of their need to stay relevant. Whilst many of us punters love the history etc., the majors have been under some threat/competition with big purses elsewhere, and this latest escalation of cash will add to that I suspect.

Slightly amusing that field strength is now a hot topic. The US PGA consistently comes last when people rate the majors  but for many years consistently had the strongest field. 🤷‍♂️


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2022)

Apart from this comment I am not interested one bit in this “tour” And given it not one minute.


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## PieMan (Jun 22, 2022)

Wow, I bet the people of Portland cannot wait to see the 1785th ranked player in the world chopping it around.............! 😄


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## IainP (Jun 22, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Still a field of some of the most unsavoury players in the world with limited star appeal.

DJ, Bryson and Brooks are the only top tier players in my view. DJ is way past his peak and will struggle to win another major, Bryson has wrecked his body and has a limited shelf life, while Brooks looks half the player he was. Easy decision for all three to take the money and I don't blame them on a professional point of view.

However as a spectacle, LIV need way more than a shotgun and the current limited field to really take away the spotlight and kudos from the PGA Tour.

I also doubt the PGA Tour have been sitting on this money all along, it's most likely a haul of the major sponsors backing the tour in a fight for survival.
		
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Agree with much of that.
Star appeal is subjective though, and as been previously noted a few high ranked on the pip programme have jumped.
This week's PGA Tour event has a good field, helped in part by close proximity to the US Open. The following week will be more interesting. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some behind the scenes dealing may be going on to boost it.


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## 4LEX (Jun 22, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Wow, I bet the people of Portland cannot wait to see the 1785th ranked player in the world chopping it around.............! 😄
		
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At least Poulter will make a Saturday for a change


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## IainP (Jun 22, 2022)

big_matt said:



			surprised we havent heard much fallout from the sponsors of the players. If you are Nike, for example, and you are paying a huge amount for a player to wear your clothes and shoes because they are on major tv networks every week around the world, are there not contractual implications if the player decides to move to a competition that doesnt even have a tv deal yet?
		
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Fair question, guess the relevant bit is are they paying to be on tv networks?
It may be their target audience generally don't own tvs, and those that do only plug games consoles and streaming sticks into them. Am sure they will be watching closely  - golf has been all over the news/media of late (if for the wrong reasons). I've had peole chat to me about golf who never normally would.


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## 4LEX (Jun 22, 2022)

IainP said:



			Agree with much of that.
Star appeal is subjective though, and as been previously noted a few high ranked on the pip programme have jumped.
This week's PGA Tour event has a good field, helped in part by close proximity to the US Open. The following week will be more interesting. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some behind the scenes dealing may be going on to boost it.
		
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Totally agree on the star appeal. The PIP situation is interesting and it's also curious to see LIV buying up a lot of YouTubers.

The PGA Tour will always have it's baron spells, especially around The Open as players gather around the UK.


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## woofers (Jun 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Who missed out from last one?

Interesting the 3 to be announced I reckon they will be nobodies unless they can get another person in sharpo
		
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Not too difficult to work out, there are 6 new signings, Koepka, De Chambeau, Reed, Ancer, Perez and, the one we all missed, Yuki Inamori.
So 48 names from Centurion + 6 above = 54 less 45 named means 9 from Centurion miss out or not named yet.
They are: Oliver Bekker, Kevin Yaun, Pablo Larrazabel, JC Ritchie, Viraj Madappa, David Puig, Oliver Fisher, Andy Ogletree and Ratchanon Chantananuwat.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 22, 2022)

woofers said:



			Not too difficult to work out, there are 6 new signings, Koepka, De Chambeau, Reed, Ancer, Perez and, the one we all missed, Yuki Inamori.
So 48 names from Centurion + 6 above = 54 less 45 named means 9 from Centurion miss out or not named yet.
They are: Oliver Bekker, Kevin Yaun, Pablo Larrazabel, JC Ritchie, Viraj Madappa, David Puig, Oliver Fisher, Andy Ogletree and Ratchanon Chantananuwat.
		
Click to expand...

It's not i just was too busy to sit down with the two lists hence asking lol


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr *will cement it's place in golfing folklore*. ;-)
		
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## timd77 (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr will cement it's place in golfing folklore. ;-)
		
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Are you on a wind up?


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I could think of a different team name for a team with BdC, Reed and Perez.
		
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Just add Peter Uihiein and the name automatically appears!


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Oggletree is one I think, not sure on the others.
...
		
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Who?
Not progressed as much as would be expected for a US Am winner.


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## fenwayrich (Jun 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well it won't, BDC picking Reed, Perez and Koepka Jr will cement it's place in golfing folklore. ;-)
		
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Absolutely, ranking alongside Sarazen's 'shot heard round the world', Hogan's recovery from life threatening injuries, Nicklaus's 1986 Masters win, Tiger winning the US Open with a broken leg, and Fitzpatrick's bunker shot on Sunday. 🤔


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			It was dreamt up by a 30-something year old marketing executive who thought they had a career until they stood in front of a flipchart and 20 suits and said they've got a good idea... let's ignore the past 150 years of golfing tradition and devise a format that people enjoy and follow something like the IPL team thing.. lets make up whacky team names that will draw the ignorant punters in, make pots of cash and no mistake.  Sorry mate, golf is an individual sport and you bombed out.  If you think I wake up in the morning looking forward to the Perez/Reed team score then think again...
		
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It's simply a 'differentiation' exercise!


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## sunshine (Jun 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Totally agree on the star appeal. The PIP situation is interesting and *it's also curious to see LIV buying up a lot of YouTubers*.

The PGA Tour will always have it's baron spells, especially around The Open as players gather around the UK.
		
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And it seems they are also buying up wannabe youtubers. Anyone on a journey to scratch, or a vlog of their kids, however obscure.


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## AussieKB (Jun 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			At least Poulter will make a Saturday for a change 

Click to expand...

Amazing how people have turned on Poulter but when he played Ryder Cup that was a different matter.


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2022)

James Piot
OWGR 1725
Played 6
Missed cut 6
Ranking points scored...0

I can do that.
Gissa job LIV...


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Are you on a wind up?
		
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What do you think?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Totally agree on the star appeal. The PIP situation is interesting and it's also curious to see LIV buying up a lot of YouTubers.

The PGA Tour will always have it's baron spells, especially around The Open as players gather around the UK.
		
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3 of the biggest "stars" of the PGA Tour, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth - I think we can all agree, they are an important part of the PGA Tour?

Out of 26 PGA Tour events so far this year, they have competed together just 5 times, and 3 of those were the majors. From the PGA Tour's point, that really needs to improve.


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			3 of the biggest "stars" of the PGA Tour, Rory, *Dustin Thomas* and Spieth - I think we can all agree, they are an important part of the PGA Tour?

Out of 26 PGA Tour events so far this year, they have competed together just 5 times, and 3 of those were the majors. From the PGA Tour's point, that really needs to improve.
		
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Who?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Who?
		
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Edited now FH. Cheers for pointing out the typo


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## Backsticks (Jun 23, 2022)

Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

4LEX said:



			At least Poulter will make a Saturday for a change 

Click to expand...

He's now 98th in the world and likely to drop out of the top 100 for only the 2nd time since 2001. Very doubtful he'll be back either.


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Edited now FH. Cheers for pointing out the typo 

Click to expand...

FWIW. I don't believe that 'stat' is worth a damn anyway...And likely pretty much equivalent would apply to Tennis I believe - but haven't checked - if you grabbed 3 'top' players.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/

Click to expand...

PGA Tour - Golf for America, by America.

Hopefully the DP World Tour sack off the allegiance to the PGA Tour, let the guys from LIV play, and help swing the ranking points back in favour of players who can't access the PGA Tour.


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## PieMan (Jun 23, 2022)

sunshine said:



			And it seems they are also buying up wannabe youtubers. Anyone on a journey to scratch, or a vlog of their kids, however obscure.
		
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Is that why Homer has disappeared? He's defected to LIV and Fragger has banned him?!!! 😀


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/

Click to expand...

That would seem to be more of a threat to ET (long term) than LIV is (short term) imo. At least after the initial raft of 'desertions'. Also raises the issue of how LIV prevents itself from being simply an 'exhibition' tour for players topping up their already sizable pension pots with proceeds from a few tournaments. How do/will those wanting to get on the gravy train actually 'qualify'?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/

Click to expand...

This certainly makes it more equal for all players, but he's right that the European Tour will get hammered and makes it really hard for top European players to climb the rankings. Perhaps another reason the two tours need more integration? Issue is (I suspect) that many US players won't want to travel.


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## IainP (Jun 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/

Click to expand...

Good find, really interesting.
Implies the majors would change also although doesn't specifically mention. (Masters beware!)
In many ways the changes seem to make sense, although can see how it could be viewed as PGAT strengthening their hold (pre liv)


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			PGA Tour - Golf for America, by America.

Hopefully the DP World Tour sack off the allegiance to the PGA Tour, let the guys from LIV play, and help swing the ranking points back in favour of players who can't access the PGA Tour.
		
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Well yes, but no. 

From an equality point of view it's perfectly fair, as what the current system allows for is European Tour and other tour players to climb higher in the rankings than they would have done playing on the PGA Tour where arguably they'd be further down the field. Of course it could be argued that there's nothing stopping PGA Tour players coming over to the EU Tour which a few have. That said it's certainly allowed the best European Tour players to get a foothold in the rankings and go on to better things. Positive discrimination if you like 😉


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## BiMGuy (Jun 23, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Amazing how people have turned on Poulter but when he played Ryder Cup that was a different matter.
		
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Not everyone liked him. I for one never have


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

Rory McIlroy has called players who join LIV Golf "pretty duplicitous" as Brooks Koepka became the latest to move to the new Saudi Arabian-backed series.

McIlroy, a staunch advocate of the PGA Tour, said he did not expect the former world number one to defect to LIV Golf.

"Am I surprised? Yes, because of what he said previously," he said.

"I think that's why I'm surprised at a lot of these guys, because they say one thing and then they do another and I don't understand.

"I don't know if that's for legal reasons - I have no idea - but it's pretty duplicitous on their part to say one thing and then do another thing. In public and in private."
		
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https://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/61899722


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Well yes, but no.

From an equality point of view it's perfectly fair, as what the current system allows for is European Tour and other tour players to climb higher in the rankings than they would have done playing on the PGA Tour where arguably they'd be further down the field. Of course it could be argued that there's nothing stopping PGA Tour players coming over to the EU Tour which a few have. That said it's certainly allowed the best European Tour players to get a foothold in the rankings and go on to better things. Positive discrimination if you like 😉
		
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112 players in the Travelers are American, 44 from the ROW.
Most of the players in the US Open were American, same for the Canadian Open, how is that perfectly fair?

I know the Open will have less US bias, but it's the only major and the only BIG tournament outside of the US on the calendar.

Why are non US players being disadvantaged - or are they just all crap golfers in comparison to those in the US?


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Wasnt aware the ranking system itself was being radically changed in a few weeks aside from LIV developments :

https://meczyki.net/padraig-harrington-fears-new-ranking-system-will-cause-catastrophic-damage/

Click to expand...

Not a shocking proposal, but it is a self reinforcing one. Give more points to players who play on the PGA Tour, that increases the strength of the field, they get more points and so on in a self0-fulfilling circle.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



https://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/61899722

Click to expand...

Oh Rory. Stick to playing golf 🙄


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

As someone said on BBC Have your say...




			Growing the game of golf?

* No way of qualifying other than invite. No pyramid structure.
* Why haven’t Saudi done the same for a ladies series?
* No youth programmes and events
* Broadcasters aren’t touching it
* Bulk of events on one continent.
* No WR points

Growing the game about as much as I’m growing a pair of unicorns in my shed.

Money. Money. Money. That’s all it’s about
		
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And yes, we know there's a Saudi series for women before the PR gurus chirp up 😉


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh Rory. Stick to playing golf 🙄
		
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Clearly Brooks has said one thing in private and then gone back on it. He's free to do so and Rory is free to call him out on it.


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## evemccc (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh Rory. Stick to playing golf 🙄
		
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Rory is becoming Gary..


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Clearly Brooks has said one thing in private and then gone back on it. He's free to do so and Rory is free to call him out on it.
		
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Is he? Can he just stay out of it 🤷

If asked a question in interview just say Liv isn't for me, that's all I'm going to say on the matter 

JT was the best just said respected people's choices and doesn't suddenly hate them for it


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## hovis (Jun 23, 2022)




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## Backsticks (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			1
Why are non US players being disadvantaged - or are they just all crap golfers in comparison to those in the US?
		
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Yes. There are more good American players. It is fair - any one good enough can get there. Noone is being disadvantaged..


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 23, 2022)

big_matt said:



			surprised we havent heard much fallout from the sponsors of the players. If you are Nike, for example, and you are paying a huge amount for a player to wear your clothes and shoes because they are on major tv networks every week around the world, are there not contractual implications if the player decides to move to a competition that doesnt even have a tv deal yet?
		
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This comes back to the YouTube angle. I suspect Nike will hit more of their target market, young, high disposable income, via YouTube than behind paywall TV.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh Rory. Stick to playing golf 🙄
		
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He is on the PGA Tour Policy Board, and is entitled to speak about stuff he is directly involved with.

Unlike some of the others involved, Rory talks straight and some players like Koepka have been duplicitous, saying one thing while clearly planning another.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			112 players in the Travelers are American, 44 from the ROW.
Most of the players in the US Open were American, same for the Canadian Open, how is that perfectly fair?

I know the Open will have less US bias, but it's the only major and the only BIG tournament outside of the US on the calendar.

Why are non US players being disadvantaged - or are they just all crap golfers in comparison to those in the US?
		
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The current system artificially allocates extra weighting to DP Tour events (and others). This allows players doing well in those events to climb the world rankings and gains access to the PGA Tour. Fleetwood being a recent example. 

However for US players of roughly the same standard playing on the PGA Tour it's significantly harder to gain the same ranking points as the fields are much more competitive. 

Now cream will rise to the top, so those top European players will be good whatever, but from a purely rankings point of view it skews them. I do agree with Harrington that it will make it harder for DP World players to make their name on that tour before moving on. They will likely have to go to qualify for the PGA Tour as the ranking points are going to be harder to come by - unless there's more joint competitions.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			He is on the PGA Tour Policy Board, and is entitled to speak about stiff he is directly involved with.

Unlike some of the others involved, Rory talks straight and some players like Koepka have been duplicitous, saying one thing while clearly planning another.
		
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Which how many of them did ? Nothing wrong with it when the PGA were threating suspensions they surely had to play it close to the chest incase it fell through and they were banned without going?


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is he? Can he just stay out of it 🤷

If asked a question in interview just say Liv isn't for me, that's all I'm going to say on the matter

JT was the best just said respected people's choices and doesn't suddenly hate them for it
		
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Why are you more bothered about Rory speaking his mind than you are about players accepting hundreds of millions from a Saudi Prince who orders journalists to be killed and dismembered?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Why are you more bothered about Rory speaking his mind than you are about players accepting hundreds of millions from a Saudi Prince who orders journalists to be killed and dismembered?
		
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Because that point is massively overplayed

Nobody condemns what Saudi kingdom do

Yet we can still enjoy Liv 

I didn't watch the first event I go wow the Saudis are lovely .. I'm gonna go stay there now 

There are a few who don't support Liv because it's an actual reason which is fine but there as too many using it as a reason to bash it because they don't like change and couldn't give 2 hoots about the subject. Just suits their agenda


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## evemccc (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			He is on the PGA Tour Policy Board, and is entitled to speak about stiff he is directly involved with.

Unlike some of the others involved, Rory talks straight and some players like Koepka have been duplicitous, saying one thing while clearly planning another.
		
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The Sainted Rory has also been incredibly short-sighted and objectively wrong, declaring that Liv Golf was “dead in the water” in Feb this year


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The Sainted Rory has also been incredibly short-sighted and objectively wrong, declaring that Liv Golf was “dead in the water” in Feb this year
		
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Surprised he hasn't moved to Liv himself I mean no major in 8 years .. the "past it" players who won majors since a fair few of them have left 🤷


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh Rory. Stick to playing golf 🙄
		
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Stick to trains then....

Everyone is entitled  to an opinion and everyone is entitled to express it..
We are..
Why shouldn't he...?


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			112 players in the Travelers are American, 44 from the ROW.
Most of the players in the US Open were American, same for the Canadian Open, how is that perfectly fair?

I know the Open will have less US bias, but it's the only major and the only BIG tournament outside of the US on the calendar.

Why are non US players being disadvantaged - or are they just all crap golfers in comparison to those in the US?
		
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The above is a ridiculous 'argument'.
Most/many Euro players will be back in Europe preparing for The Open
There is nothing 'unfair' about qualification for the US Open - nor for The Open. There is no inherent 'bias' in either tournament's qualification (specific 'winner of...' local categories excluded).
Non US players are NOT being disadvantaged! In fact, the allocation of OGWR points for tournaments is currently skewed in their favour! 42 of the 70 who qualified for the final rounds of the 42 of the 70 who made the cut in The Canadian Open were from US! That's 50% more than from elsewhere! Which, while a single instance, DOES indicate US players might well be better players (in America).  

If that's the quality of verifiable arguments of 'LIV's agent on here', it seriously damages the perception of the validity of those of the 'non-verifiable' (opinion/POV) type!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Stick to trains then....

Everyone is entitled  to an opinion and everyone is entitled to express it..
We are..
Why shouldn't he...?
		
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Too political.

Difference is my opinion only is expressed in a small chamber and not to an audience of millions.

Only about 100 people think I'm a tit on here rather than a million or so.


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Too political.

Difference is my opinion only is expressed in a small chamber and not to an audience of millions.

Only about 100 people think I'm a tit on here rather than a million or so.
		
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Numbers are irrelevant. 
You want to express your opinion but you don't want Rory to..?


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## Bazzatron (Jun 23, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not everyone liked him. I for one never have
		
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Same. Can't stand him or Westwood.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Numbers are irrelevant.
You want to express your opinion but you don't want Rory to..?
		
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No numbers are the point. Rory has a habbit of putting his foot in his mouth 

Liv is dead in water 

The fairways are X yards wide we shouldn't be missing them 

Just stick to hitting the ball. He is good at that


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## Swango1980 (Jun 23, 2022)

I find it hilarious. People in this forum are only too happy to speak exactly what is on their mind, often to the point of getting into a direct war of words with another poster. 

Yet Rory gives his honest opinion, and the people who can't stop giving their opinions, slam Rory for his. Maybe we should all just stick to our day jobs and avoid these forums?

I also wonder how many would slam Rory as giving another boring, non committal answer and making him like 95% of all the other boring robotic sports stars?


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The Sainted Rory has also been incredibly short-sighted and objectively wrong, declaring that Liv Golf was “dead in the water” in Feb this year
		
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Too early to say if he is wrong. They have had one event. Check back in a few months.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is he? Can he just stay out of it 🤷

If asked a question in interview just say Liv isn't for me, that's all I'm going to say on the matter

JT was the best just said respected people's choices and doesn't suddenly hate them for it
		
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Well, presumably the difference is that Rory has spoken to some others who have said one thing to him and then done another. He doesn't do the bland say nothing form of media interaction that others do.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Because that point is massively overplayed

Nobody condemns what Saudi kingdom do

Yet we can still enjoy Liv

I didn't watch the first event I go wow the Saudis are lovely .. I'm gonna go stay there now

There are a few who don't support Liv because it's an actual reason which is fine but there as too many using it as a reason to bash it because they don't like change and couldn't give 2 hoots about the subject. Just suits their agenda
		
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I don't mind the change, it's needed, but I just don't like this change. For the 'PGA bashers' with an agenda, they're just throwing the baby out with the bath water and have latched onto the first thing that comes along.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I find it hilarious. People in this forum are only too happy to speak exactly what is on their mind, often to the point of getting into a direct war of words with another poster.

Yet Rory gives his honest opinion, and the people who can't stop giving their opinions, slam Rory for his. Maybe we should all just stick to our day jobs and avoid these forums?

I also wonder how many would slam Rory as giving another boring, non committal answer and making him like 95% of all the other boring robotic sports stars?
		
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Once you get to a level of influence you should try and stay out of it and calling into question someone else's decision as duplicitous In the press when everyone full well knows the legal battles were hidden so nobody really actively could say right I'm off to Liv is a bit bad darts.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, presumably the difference is that Rory has spoken to some others who have said one thing to him and then done another. He doesn't do the bland say nothing form of media interaction that others do.
		
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As I've said just above. Did he expect them to say yes I'm off to Liv

The lawyers were out

Bans were muted

Anyone who said yep I'm off would be pretty stupid

Personally thought brooks handled it best in his interview at the us open when he said it was disrespectful to keep talking about it and ruin the us open build up


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is he? Can he just stay out of it 🤷

If asked a question in interview just say Liv isn't for me, that's all I'm going to say on the matter

JT was the best just said respected people's choices and doesn't suddenly hate them for it
		
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Isn't RM the players representaitive on the Board of the PGA Tour,  in which case don't you think he must give his view on this.  If that doesn't match the view of the players then they are free to remove him from the Board.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			As I've said just above. Did he expect them to say yes I'm off to Liv

The lawyers were out

Bans were muted

Anyone who said yep I'm off would be pretty stupid

Personally thought brooks handled it best in his interview at the us open when he said it was disrespectful to keep talking about it and ruin the us open build up
		
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Yes, he did expect them to speak honestly. They don't have to say no to his face then yes publicly. They don't have to be utterly frank to avoid being dishonest.

And Brooks using respect for the US Open as a cover is pathetic. He was finalising the terms of his deal, otherwise he would have announced sooner. Just another mercenary sell out.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			As I've said just above. Did he expect them to say yes I'm off to Liv

The lawyers were out

Bans were muted

Anyone who said yep I'm off would be pretty stupid

Personally thought brooks handled it best in his interview at the us open when he said it was disrespectful to keep talking about it and ruin the us open build up
		
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PGA have quite clearly stated that they would only ban a player if they played in an LIV event not for announcing it.

LIV is an attempt by the Saudi regime to paper over their appalling record, so yes by supporting the LIV you are in quite a clear way supporting the Saudi's attempt to sportswash their reputation


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			PGA have quite clearly stated that they would only ban a player if they played in an LIV event not for announcing it.

LIV is an attempt by the Saudi regime to paper over their appalling record, so yes by supporting the LIV you are in quite a clear way supporting the Saudi's attempt to sportswash their reputation
		
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Not at all. if people actually think that they are deluded

do you watch any F1 over there?
will you watch the world cup?
do you watch any newcastle games?
did you watch any ET tour events in SA?

if so by your own argument you support sports washing?

its complete horse wash


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## r0wly86 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Not at all. if people actually think that they are deluded

do you watch any F1 over there? - No
will you watch the world cup? - No also in Qatar not Saudi Arabia, not the best people but not as bad as Saudi
do you watch any newcastle games? - No
did you watch any ET tour events in SA? - No

if so by your own argument you support sports washing?

its complete horse wash
		
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I am against any rogue nation trying to enhance their reputation through buying teams or by hosting tournaments, I was against Russia holding the Winter Olympics.

Would you support a golf tour that was being paid for by Putin?

It is propaganda pure and simple and if you are fine with that, then you are part of the problem


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I am against any rogue nation trying to enhance their reputation through buying teams or by hosting tournaments, I was against Russia holding the Winter Olympics.

Would you support a golf tour that was being paid for by Putin?

It is propaganda pure and simple and if you are fine with that, then you are part of the problem
		
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i think you should stay out of the political side of the argument as it is banned on this forum and debate the golf side.

dont like the tour? fine .. if its for political reasons keep them to yourself


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			No numbers are the point. Rory has a habbit of putting his foot in his mouth

Liv is dead in water

The fairways are X yards wide we shouldn't be missing them

Just stick to hitting the ball. He is good at that
		
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So let me get this straight....
You want to deprive a Human Being of his right to express himself because you don't agree with what he's saying..because he has influence over more people than you...and yet you want the right to express yourself because the number of people who will listen to you a small.....
Have I got that right?
Are you for real?
Wars have been fought over these kind of attitudes.....
Jeez..I wish I could ignore you but you post so much there's not a thread on here that would be legible.....


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## r0wly86 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			i think you should stay out of the political side of the argument as it is banned on this forum and debate the golf side.

dont like the tour? fine .. if its for political reasons keep them to yourself
		
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This isn't political it is a question of ethics. If you are happy to help the Saudi's propaganda then that is down to your own ethics. I presume that as you didn't answer the question about Putin then that means you wouldn't support such a tour. So you have drawn your own ethical lines and have put the Saudi's on the acceptable side, that is up to you, but I find that personally reprehensible.

But that's it I am out. Don't bother replying I am done with this thread


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			This isn't political it is a question of ethics. If you are happy to help the Saudi's propaganda then that is down to your own ethics. I presume that as you didn't answer the question about Putin then that means you wouldn't support such a tour. So you have drawn your own ethical lines and have put the Saudi's on the acceptable side, that is up to you, but I find that personally reprehensible.

But that's it I am out. Don't bother replying I am done with this thread
		
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i personally dont give a rats . I condemn what the saudis do but I dont believe supporting liv is supporting the saudis human rights at all.

how about we look to the USA and how many arms they sell them per year before we moan at their sports stars for taking a bit of cash?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So let me get this straight....
You want to deprive a Human Being of his right to express himself because you don't agree with what he's saying..because he has influence over more people than you...and yet you want the right to express yourself because the number of people who will listen to you a small.....
Have I got that right?
Are you for real?
Wars have been fought over these kind of attitudes.....
Jeez..I wish I could ignore you but you post so much there's not a thread on here that would be legible.....
		
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just lol. really. that is the most pathetic answer .. yes i want to deny him his human rights....

thats exactly what

I didnt say that once did i

I just said he should stick to what he best at.. and thats playing golf.

he has a habbit of making these statements that then come back to bite him.. so I just believe he would better off not making them

that better for you?


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			i think you should stay out of the political side of the argument as it is banned on this forum and debate the golf side.

dont like the tour? fine .. if its for political reasons keep them to yourself
		
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Politics and ethics are woven into this and are unavoidable. You appear to have a one-sided view that is becoming comically hypocritical. I think you have said, in some cases repeatedly, everything you possibly could say and should consider leaving it there.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			i personally dont give a rats . I condemn what the saudis do but I dont believe supporting liv is supporting the saudis human rights at all.

how about we look to the USA and how many arms they sell them per year before we moan at their sports stars for taking a bit of cash?
		
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I was unaware the US Federal Govt funded the PGA Tour.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Politics and ethics are woven into this and are unavoidable. You appear to have a one-sided view that is becoming comically hypocritical. I think you have said, in some cases repeatedly, everything you possibly could say and should consider leaving it there.
		
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same as others as I keep saying. The human rights side everyone is in agreement. their human rights are appalling so why need to bring them up every 5 mins? nobody is saying right the saudis are amazing now.

so put that to one side for a min and talk about the golf side of things.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I was unaware the US Federal Govt funded the PGA Tour.
		
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the PGA tour was not mentioned in that post at all..

plus the pga tour takes saudi money from sponsors which we have been through before so lets not go over that again and again to make yourself happy eh


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Once you get to a level of influence you should try and stay out of it and calling into question someone else's decision as duplicitous In the press when everyone full well knows the legal battles were hidden so nobody really actively could say right I'm off to Liv is a bit bad darts.
		
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In that case you give a politicians reply and not answer it, or by saying "I don't know, there's an offer but I've a lot to consider..." 

You don't go around telling others that you're not going to LIV. That way there's nothing to be called out for.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			In that case you give a politicians reply and not answer it, or by saying "I don't know, there's an offer but I've a lot to consider..."

You don't go around telling others that you're not going to LIV. That way there's nothing to be called out for.
		
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as others have said he is on the board isnt he? so maybe they dont want to say anything to him as it might get back to the board ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			112 players in the Travelers are American, 44 from the ROW.
Most of the players in the US Open were American, same for the Canadian Open, how is that perfectly fair?

I know the Open will have less US bias, but it's the only major and the only BIG tournament outside of the US on the calendar.

Why are non US players being disadvantaged - or are they just all crap golfers in comparison to those in the US?
		
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🤷‍♂️ Can you surely not understand why the “US” tour has more “US” players in it 🤷‍♂️

Are you equally confused at why there are more “European” players in the European Tour 

More “Asian” players in the Asian Tour 

And no one is being disadvantaged- every single player has the same ability to be able to qualify for which ever Tour they wish to play on 

A “non US” golfer is not disadvantage- he can follow the same path as the US golfer if he so wishes - unfortunately the US Golf market is where the sponsers are


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			as others have said he is on the board isnt he? so maybe they dont want to say anything to him as it might get back to the board ?
		
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Well...




			When asked about the Saudi-backed LIV Golf league, a rival to the PGA Tour with an alternative format and massive payouts, in February 2020 at the Honda Classic, Koepka shot down the idea that he’d participate.

Money doesn’t matter,” the four-time major champion said. “It’s not something that’s important. I just want to be happy. Money’s not going to make me happy. I just want to play against the best.

“If somebody gave me $200 million tomorrow it’s not going to change my life. What am I going to get out of it? I already have [enough money] that I could retire right now, but I don’t want to. I just want to play golf.”
		
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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Well...
		
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isnt that exactly what rahm said aswell? 

I wouldnt trust many golfers in what they say publicly, they are business men end of day.. and that was what feb 2020? before covid and the world changing.. maybe that plays into peoples decisions?

Also he was pre injury then wasnt he? so was on top of the world


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			...
You don't go around telling others that you're not going to LIV. That way there's nothing to be called out for.
		
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Perhaps he wasn't going to LIV _at the time_. But after they made him an offer he couldn't refuse, he opted to do so. Doubtful, but possible!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



*Once you get to a level of influence you should try and stay out of it and calling into question someone else's decision as duplicitous* In the press when everyone full well knows the legal battles were hidden so nobody really actively could say right I'm off to Liv is a bit bad darts.
		
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So, once you get to a certain level of influence, you should self censor? Freedom of speech no longer applies?

Rory was asked a question, he gave an honest answer. He didn't say he hated Brooks, and he previously said he can understand individuals have their own reasons. However, if Brooks has said one thing, and then done another, then it is a fair statement for Rory to make. Rory is also in a much better position to be aware of what Brooks has being indicating privately than any of us.  Of course, he caveated that to say maybe there were legal implications going on in the background. So, despite giving his honest assessment, he was also guarded in giving it.

Besides, a big reason he gets to that level of influence is how he conducts himself off the course, including during interviews. So, it would be silly to change that stance now just because a few people don't like a particular answer he gave.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps he wasn't going to LIV _at the time_. But after they made him an offer he couldn't refuse, he opted to do so. Doubtful, but possible!
		
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Collin came out saying he isn't going only because of massive rumours saying he was .. will he be judged if he changes mind.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Collin came out saying he isn't going only because of massive rumours saying he was .. will he be judged if he changes mind.
		
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Very possibly. It all depends on circumstances. It depends on what he has said publicly, privately and how things change going forward. If he suddenly does sign up to LIV, simply because he was offered a lot of cash, then I'm sure he would be judged negatively by many. Because, it is not unreasonable for him to think there is a chance that he could be offered a lot of money to sign up, and for him to have an idea of what amount it would take. If he knew that there was a number in mind, I'd at least expect him carefully word current statements to ensure they don't imply he'd NEVER join LIV. And, certainly privately amongst his peers expect him to be a little more honest.

However, if there comes a point were virtually all the best players in the world have signed up to LIV, and in particular, if they get World Ranking Points, then it would be easier to expect any other top player to sign up to ensure they are still competing with the best.


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Collin came out saying he isn't going only because of massive rumours saying he was .. will he be judged if he changes mind.
		
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Depends when he does and how he phrases his change of mind. At least my view should he do so. I'm sure there would be others who would act otherwise.


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## PieMan (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			as others have said he is on the board isnt he? so maybe they dont want to say anything to him as it might get back to the board ?
		
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Surely that's the whole point of having a players rep on the board - so players can ask him to speak up for them and he can air their views?

Appears to be Brooks told him one thing, and then went back on that. Yes Brooks perfectly entitled to do that, but likewise so is Rory to call him out on that, especially if the board has asked Rory to canvas players on their intentions!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Surely that's the whole point of having a players rep on the board - so players can ask him to speak up for them and he can air their views?

Appears to be Brooks told him one thing, and then went back on that. Yes Brooks perfectly entitled to do that, but likewise so is Rory to call him out on that, especially if the board has asked Rory to canvas players on their intentions!
		
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Fair enough 👍


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is interesting how threads develop. MarkT, the one who started this thread, has had a total of 12 posts on it. I've actually had quite a few (this being 150). Mel Smooth has 230, and pauljames 257 (although I think that has increased since I checked).
		
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Isn't mark an employee and brings the articles to the forum?


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## Beezerk (Jun 23, 2022)

So anyway, is anyone else praying for a Rory and Brooks pairing at The Open 🤞🏻😬😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			So anyway, is anyone else praying for a Rory and Brooks pairing at The Open 🤞🏻😬😂
		
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Brooks Bryson DJ and Rory

Brooks won't know who to talk to


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## Beezerk (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Brooks Bryson DJ and Rory

Brooks won't know who to talk to
		
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Dream quartet 😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 23, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Dream quartet 😂
		
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Greg as a caddy??


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ Can you surely not understand why the “US” tour has more “US” players in it 🤷‍♂️

Are you equally confused at why there are more “European” players in the European Tour 

More “Asian” players in the Asian Tour 

And no one is being disadvantaged- every single player has the same ability to be able to qualify for which ever Tour they wish to play on 

A “non US” golfer is not disadvantage- he can follow the same path as the US golfer if he so wishes - unfortunately the US Golf market is where the sponsers are
		
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So you agree, the PGA Tour is golf by America, for America? 

Monahan obviously thinks it's a global platform, I'm guessing so he can hoover up as many global TV deals and sponsorship dollars as possible?

Infact he said this just yesterday...

“That's the beauty of the PGA TOUR,” he added. “We have and always will provide a global platform for members to compete against the very best, earn their stardom, and become household names."


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you agree, the PGA Tour is golf by America, for America?

Monahan obviously thinks it's a global platform, I'm guessing so he can hoover up as many global TV deals and sponsorship dollars as possible?

Infact he said this just yesterday...

“That's the beauty of the PGA TOUR,” he added. “We have and always will provide a global platform for members to compete against the very best, earn their stardom, and become household names."
		
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It is also a global platform - it’s the most watched around the world 🤷‍♂️

Why do you think all the countries pick it up to then broadcast ? Every week in the UK there is a ET event on Telly and a PGA tour event 🤷‍♂️

He isn’t saying anything that isn’t right 

I’m not sure what your point is


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## JamesR (Jun 23, 2022)

I think I've got it sorted in my head now... LIV tour good, PGA tour evil


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Collin came out saying he isn't going only because of massive rumours saying he was .. will he be judged if he changes mind.
		
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I think you will find he is already being judged for adding cereal to his milk, not milk to his cereal, whilst confirming he is staying . Max Homa and Justin Thomas have already questioned his state of mind for this approach.


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## JamesR (Jun 23, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you will find he is already being judged for adding cereal to his milk, not milk to his cereal, whilst confirming he is staying . Max Homa and Justin Thomas have already questioned his state of mind for this approach.
		
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I thought that was a brilliant way of changing the narrative. By giving people something else to talk about


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 23, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I thought that was a brilliant way of changing the narrative. By giving people something else to talk about 

Click to expand...

I know, but milk first . What's that about? What sort of mind even contemplates that?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 23, 2022)

9 reported posts on this thread this morning
I’m at work so thread locked until me or another mod can trawl through the crud and sort out.😡


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 23, 2022)

Thread reopened infractions issued and also a ban
People need to understand that other people might have different opinions, which you arent going to change, ever
so say your bit, agree to disagree and move on.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think I've got it sorted in my head now... LIV tour good, PGA tour evil 

Click to expand...

Yes, or possibly the other way round, depending on preference.


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539692732976963586


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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2022)

Ethan said:





JamesR said:



			I think I've got it sorted in my head now... LIV tour good, PGA tour evil 

Click to expand...

Yes, or possibly the other way round, depending on preference.
		
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Ant the ET and other tours are irrelevant/simply feeder tours.


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## Depreston (Jun 23, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think I've got it sorted in my head now... LIV tour good, PGA tour evil 

Click to expand...

it’s absolutely mad like haha


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2022)

big_matt said:



			surprised we havent heard much fallout from the sponsors of the players. If you are Nike, for example, and you are paying a huge amount for a player to wear your clothes and shoes because they are on major tv networks every week around the world, are there not contractual implications if the player decides to move to a competition that doesnt even have a tv deal yet?
		
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I think a number of the players have lost some level of sponsership deals - RBC has dropped all the players that went to LIV

Also Mickleson seems to have no more sponsership and using his own label

I’m guessing a lot of it we won’t know about

It will prob also be hard for companies to just drop them


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539952750267613184


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## IainP (Jun 23, 2022)

Read a couple of articles on Monahan's announcements on PGA Tour changes, and the (reader) comments on them. A lot of the comments seemed to be from our friends from the USA. Was a bit surprised with the amount sentiment that he'd made a mistake,  or somehow justified comments from people like Phil.

I had some time for the kind of comments that came from Rahm - whilst the change details aren't completely clear it does maybe feel like the water is becoming muddier.

What's that saying - "we have the politicians we deserve", maybe we are having the pro golfers, or golf competition landscape that we deserve!
Hopefully n years from now people can look back at this turbulent time from a better place.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think a number of the players have lost some level of sponsership deals - RBC has dropped all the players that went to LIV
...
		
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I think some of that was more to do with the timing of when they switched - just before a tournament that RBC were headline sponsors for! But they (RBS) are certainly 'committed' to/'invested in' The PGA Tour.
Loss of sponsorship was actually expected and part of the 'sign on bonus' was to cover such losses.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.
...
		
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Got any actual evidence of that?
And I'm certain the Non-profit status of the overall organisation would have been fully examined, and approved, by IRS!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Got any actual evidence of that?
And I'm certain the Non-profit status of the overall organisation would have been fully examined, and approved, by IRS!
		
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2017 - 3.91 million dollars
2018 - 4.37 million dollars
2019 - 5.38 million dollars

We know in 2020 he waived about 1.5 million as the tour was effectively shutdown due to Covid, but it's not beyond the realms that he's had a couple of pay rises since then.

Ok, that's specualtion, but this is from the tax return submitted to the IRS for 2019. 

$9 million dollars, give or take.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			In the same Form 990 - listed as "Independant Contractors"

Rory McIlroy paid 25 million
Justin Thomas paid 9.5 million
Brooks Koepka paid 9.3 million


These are the top 5 highest paid "independant contractors" listed - the 3 above and 2 construction companies.

You can start to understand why Rory is such a fan of the PGA now, and why JT was so bemused about Koepka's decision to leave.

Money Talks.  Literally.

View attachment 43192

Click to expand...

Is this reliable? If so, I wonder how McIlroy earned that money? As far as I can see, he has won just over $7m in 2021. Not sure what he win last year, but apparently Rahm was money leader on PGA with just under $8m. So, even for a period longer than a year (assuming this form represents a tax year), how does McIlroy get over $25m from PGA?

Even if it was accurate, it is hardly a good reason to say why McIlroy is supporting PGA so much (I.e. money). Because, if that was his reasoning, then logic would dictate he would jump ship to LIV immediately, as his sign up fee alone would dwarf any money he had earned on PGA.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is this reliable? If so, I wonder how McIlroy earned that money? As far as I can see, he has won just over $7m in 2021. Not sure what he win last year, but apparently Rahm was money leader on PGA with just under $8m. So, even for a period longer than a year (assuming this form represents a tax year), how does McIlroy get over $25m from PGA?

Even if it was accurate, it is hardly a good reason to say why McIlroy is supporting PGA so much (I.e. money). Because, if that was his reasoning, then logic would dictate he would jump ship to LIV immediately, as his sign up fee alone would dwarf any money he had earned on PGA.
		
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I've deleted that post mate as the info could be miscontrued, it is what he earned from the PGA including his FEDEX cup win - which was 15 million. I know a few on here like to accuse posters of making up unfounded claims, and I could see that happening with that post, hence the reason I removed it.

It's all reliable information though, and can be found on the IRS form 990

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520999206/202023219349309777/full


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## Jimaroid (Jun 24, 2022)

Monaghans compensation is less than 1% of one years PGA Tour revenue. 

I don’t see what the problem is, that’s not an unusual or shocking number.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Monaghans compensation is less than 1% of one years PGA Tour revenue.

I don’t see what the problem is, that’s not an unusual or shocking number.
		
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Well in the original post, which has been cropped, I was pointing out that the PGA Tour is registered as a NFP, to avoid paying tax.

When the commisioner alone is taking such a large salary, and they are getting nowhere near the charitable commitment of the top 100 NFP's in the USA, then I think it's worthy of discussion.

Also, Foxholer aasked me to provide evidence to back up my claims of his income - which is what I was doing.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 24, 2022)

How much tax are Liv paying?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			How much tax are Liv paying?
		
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He’s gone to check Twitter for an answer!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			2017 - 3.91 million dollars
2018 - 4.37 million dollars
2019 - 5.38 million dollars

We know in 2020 he waived about 1.5 million as the tour was effectively shutdown due to Covid, but it's not beyond the realms that he's had a couple of pay rises since then.

Ok, that's specualtion, but this is from the tax return submitted to the IRS for 2019. 

$9 million dollars, give or take.


View attachment 43190

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Just so I am clear, is this part of the debate, using the salary of the head of the PGA Tour, being utilised as a means to put a negative spin on the PGA Tour in comparison to LIV? Perhaps to try and suggest "look how corrupt or greedy this guy is"?

To be fair, I don't think it is unreasonable for the head of a multi million pound organisation to earn that amount of money. I'd imagine it might be similar for any other large company. And, I'm sure a lot of the work he has done has helped generate the high funds coming into the PGA. 

However, even if everyone were to agree he gets paid too much, I'm.not sure how it helps in this specific debate? I'd imagine the person(s) at the very top of LIV have a bit of money themselves. I bet they earn significantly more than the head of the PGA. Not through golf obviously. However, how fair or reasonable do we think that money is earned? I won't comment what I think, but if anyone is trying to be critical about what Monaghan earns, surely it is only fair to make a like with like comparison on both tours. Once done, then everyone can make their mind up which tour "wins" in this specific part of the debate.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

This is a rather convoluted attempt to justify criticism of the PGA Tour. It is undisputedly a wealthy and well financed organisation, but haven't we been hearing for the last 20 years how well the players have been doing from it. In the US, CEOs earn good money. Plenty of CEOs from companies running a loss pull in as much as Monahan.

This is also the US, home of the American dream, where winners win big and losers ..... don't. The no cut, everyone gets paid aspect of LIV goes against that. 

The essential question is whether players are fairly paid for their efforts. Since Tiger came on the scene, purses have rocketed, and many mid-ranking players have amassed considerable on-course earnings. For them to now start to whine about the rewards on the PGA Tour and run off to the LIV Tour is disgraceful. If they want to go, fine, go, but don't come back. They were warned that once they put a tee in the ground, they were done with the PGA Tour, so no good moaning about having earned their cards or wanting to play wherever they want. 

I dislike the LIV Tour and won't be following it. I think it is rather vulgar and grubby. The ADD coverage is almost unwatchable and the team format is laughable. They will also be getting in bed with Trump, who is odious and an embarrassment to golf. It would seem there is little shame or dignity in the whole venture. The players who have gone to it are welcome to it, but they should shut up and wallow in their easy money. If I never hear about them again, fine. 

Meanwhile, I will watch the PGA Tour, not that I get much chance to do even that, and hope that Rory and others win plenty. I even like Scottie Scheffler a bit more after his comments. 

Other opinions are available.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in the original post, which has been cropped, I was pointing out that the PGA Tour is registered as a NFP, to avoid paying tax.

When the commisioner alone is taking such a large salary, and they are getting nowhere near the charitable commitment of the top 100 NFP's in the USA, then I think it's worthy of discussion.

Also, Foxholer aasked me to provide evidence to back up my claims of his income - which is what I was doing.
		
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what about how much money Greg Norman is making - is it £50mil a year ? 

PGA Tour CEO is paid in line with standard CEO wages - not sure what the issue is 🤷‍♂️


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in the original post, which has been cropped, I was pointing out that the PGA Tour is registered as a NFP, to avoid paying tax.

When the commisioner alone is taking such a large salary, and they are getting nowhere near the charitable commitment of the top 100 NFP's in the USA, then I think it's worthy of discussion.

Also, Foxholer aasked me to provide evidence to back up my claims of his income - which is what I was doing.
		
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And purely for balance can you tell me how much Mr Norman is being paid by LiV?


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## Depreston (Jun 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			what about how much money Greg Norman is making - is it £50mil a year ?

PGA Tour CEO is paid in line with standard CEO wages - not sure what the issue is 🤷‍♂️
		
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But but non profit


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

Depreston said:



			But but non profit
		
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Do you believe a non-profit organisation does not pay its staff?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Guys, I'm just answering the question to validate my claims of  Monahan's salary with facts - I've done that. 

If the PGA Tour want to claim not for profit through charity status, then fine, but it's only fair to scrutinise their executives salaries isn't it? 

If the Commissioner is making around 9 million a year from running a 'charity', he's doing rather well for himself.

We all know the LIV series is paying obscene amounts of money, buy equally Monahan's salary shouldn't escape scrutiny.


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## timd77 (Jun 24, 2022)

I can’t seem to find the current CEO’s salary, but Richard Scudamore, the previous premier league CEO was on 5mil a year. Would seem a bit weird if the players were earning millions and the boss of the league/tour was on an average wage.

All pretty disgusting but there you go.


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## Bazzatron (Jun 24, 2022)

timd77 said:



			I can’t seem to find the current CEO’s salary, but Richard Scudamore, the previous premier league CEO was on 5mil a year. Would seem a bit weird if the players were earning millions and the boss of the league/tour was on an average wage.

All pretty disgusting but there you go.
		
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Didn't the Premier League chairmen give him a massive leaving bonus too? Madness.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 24, 2022)

If people are taking umbrage with the PGA Tour on the basis that an NPO shouldn’t pay high compensation then I have some rather bad news for you about how most of the world’s largest charities operate.


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## AAC (Jun 24, 2022)

I just hope that the LIV have a few million in reserve to sign up the american morons who still think shouting 'get in the hole' is original and funny.  It was a continual annoyance during Matt Fitzpatrick's great win last week as it is on most of Sky's US golf coverage.  If they pop off to the LIV at least the Saudi's might be-head them


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			If people are taking umbrage with the PGA Tour on the basis that an NPO shouldn’t pay high compensation then I have some rather bad news for you about how most of the world’s largest charities operate.
		
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Can you show us some figures for comparison?


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

Anyone who thinks the LIV Tour is a victory for libertarianism, or a fresh new product, good luck to you. Enjoy the ADD broadcast and the team structure. 

In my opinion, and other views are available, it is a bunch of mostly has beens or have never yet beens, with a few current high end players who seem unhappy with the mere millions already being thrown at them and who want tens or hundreds of millions instead. 

To characterise it as anything other than a vulgar feeding frenzy just doesn't wash. There is no attempt to grow golf, whatever that means anyway. The vulgarity is only set to increase, as Trump gets involved. In some ways Trump is the perfect host, as any vestige of ethical behaviour is abandoned and everybody gets their snouts in the trough. 

The PGA Tour is far from perfect, but next to the LIV Tour, it is virtuous and socially responsible to a level some of you would consider uber-woke. I hope the PGA Tour and DP World Tour get together, refine their structures and schedules and take on the LIV Tour head on. They should leave a window open for players to come back, say end of season, but then close and lock the door and throw away the keys.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in the original post, which has been cropped, I was pointing out that the PGA Tour is registered as a NFP, to avoid paying tax.

When the commisioner alone is taking such a large salary, and they are getting nowhere near the charitable commitment of the top 100 NFP's in the USA, then I think it's worthy of discussion.

Also, Foxholer asked me to provide evidence to back up my claims of his income - which is what I was doing.
		
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And you haven't provided sufficient evidence to support it - at least not sufficiently to accept your statement as correct imo. Just more speculation _presented _as fact!

The NFP status of The PGA Tour is irrelevant to any discussion about salaries of its employees.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			If people are taking umbrage with the PGA Tour on the basis that an NPO shouldn’t pay high compensation then I have some rather bad news for you about how most of the world’s largest charities operate.
		
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The PGA Tour is not, strictly speaking, a charitable organisation. Anyway, that concept is very different in the US than it is in the UK. Charitable organisations are covered by IRS Section 501(c)(3). The PGA Tour is a tax exempt organisation under 501(c)(6).,see link


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahan is on about 7 million a year now.
...
		
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PieMan said:



			How much is Greg taking from the Saudi's?
		
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Neither of those figures, if both were available, make the organisation inherently corrupt!


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If the PGA Tour want to claim not for profit through charity status, then fine, but it's only fair to scrutinise their executives salaries isn't it?
		
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NFP and charity ad not the same thing you know.  I am pretty sure the PGA tour has never claimed to be a charity,  perhaps though you can again back your statement up.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			NFP and charity ad not the same thing you know.  I am pretty sure the PGA tour has never claimed to be a charity,  perhaps though you can again back your statement up.
		
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See 2548.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guys, I'm just answering the question to validate my claims of  Monahan's salary with facts - I've done that.
...
		
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No you haven't!


Mel Smooth said:



			If the Commissioner is making around 9 million a year from running a 'charity', he's doing rather well for himself.
...
		
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Again, Speculation only. Or, even worse, exaggeration! 
The inference The org being declared as a 'charity', as opposed to the NFP status that you know it is, is even more obscene, even using quote marks.
FWIW, projected 2022 turnover of The PGA Tour is 1.522 Billion, so 'compensation' for CEO and Commissioner, while certainly high, don't seem inappropriate.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No you haven't!

Again, Speculation only
		
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Lol. 

I've literally posted  screenshots of the tax returns and a link to said form which show just that. 

What do you want, a signed statement from Monahan himself?


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## rksquire (Jun 24, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think I've got it sorted in my head now... LIV tour good, PGA tour evil 

Click to expand...

Or both 'evil'?  Prior to LIV there was some disgruntlement around the PGA and a general unhappiness about how the money filters through etc.  The PGA Tour, like FIFA / UEFA, the FA, the IOC, NFL, etc., are the not self proclaimed forces for good they claim to be - they are self serving.  LIV is no better (actually worse in reality), but let's not hold up the PGA Tour as a virtuous organisation.  



Mel Smooth said:



			Guys, I'm just answering the question to validate my claims of  Monahan's salary with facts - I've done that.

If the PGA Tour want to claim not for profit through charity status, then fine, but it's only fair to scrutinise their executives salaries isn't it?

If the Commissioner is making around 9 million a year from running a 'charity', he's doing rather well for himself.

We all know the LIV series is paying obscene amounts of money, buy equally Monahan's salary shouldn't escape scrutiny.
		
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Even if Monahan earns a shocking amount of money, the question is does he bring value to the organisation he receives that money from - yes.  It's justifiable in my mind.  In fact, if I was LIV, I wouldn't be targeting players - I'd be targeting Monahan.  $7m a year?  What about $50m a year plus a nice $100m just to say yes to becoming LIVs commissioner.  That'd be a statement signing!


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## Jimaroid (Jun 24, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The PGA Tour is not, strictly speaking, a charitable organisation. Anyway, that concept is very different in the US than it is in the UK. Charitable organisations are covered by IRS Section 501(c)(3). The PGA Tour is a tax exempt organisation under 501(c)(6).,see link

Click to expand...

Gah, yes, indeed, I brainfarted in my reply. I wasn’t meaning to imply charities and not-for-profit are equivalent entities, just that they both face similar challenges in attracting the best executives via competitive remuneration. I’m aware that some healthcare executives do very well from their respective non profits which I would imagine is something you’re more familiar with.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Jesus wept.


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## timd77 (Jun 24, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			Didn't the Premier League chairmen give him a massive leaving bonus too? Madness.
		
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They did yeh, 250k each club, not bad work if you can’t get it!


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## r0wly86 (Jun 24, 2022)

DP Tour have fined LIV members £100,000 and suspended them from upcoming event


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			DP Tour have fined LIV members £100,000 and suspended them from upcoming event
		
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Well, there was wonder what the DP World Tour would do. Some hoped that they would allow LIV players to play in the DP events, improve the quality of field.

However, they have gone the other way, and look to categorically align themselves with the PGA Tour. 

Golfing politics gets more interesting.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 24, 2022)

Im sensing the opportunity for a LIV v PGA/ DP World tour team event.... 

Anyone got a few billion to back my new business?

Phil v Tiger
Rory v DJ
Bryson v Morikawa
Brooks v JT

Just think of the potential!


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Im sensing the opportunity for a LIV v PGA/ DP World tour team event....

Anyone got a few billion to back my new business?

Phil v Tiger
Rory v DJ
Bryson v Morikawa
Brooks v JT

Just think of the potential! 

Click to expand...

To replace the Ryder Cup


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## Orikoru (Jun 24, 2022)

AAC said:



			I just hope that the LIV have a few million in reserve to sign up the american morons who still think shouting 'get in the hole' is original and funny.  It was a continual annoyance during Matt Fitzpatrick's great win last week as it is on most of Sky's US golf coverage.  If they pop off to the LIV at least the Saudi's might be-head them 

Click to expand...

Get in the hole is pretty old hat these days. At the USO I heard "mashed potato" more times, and I swear even "hot soup!" at one stage. Have to admit the hot soup one _did_ make me laugh.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To replace the Ryder Cup
		
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No this is a new, fast paced, 36 hole event to rival the Ryder Cup...


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			DP Tour have fined LIV members £100,000 and suspended them from upcoming event
		
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Not sure how they can fine them - unless it's somewhere in their 'disciplinary' rules.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			No this is a new, *fast paced*, 36 hole event to rival the Ryder Cup...
		
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Not with Phil and Tiger involved it wouldn't be!


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## Bdill93 (Jun 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not with Phil and Tiger involved it wouldn't be!

Click to expand...

Im allowing buggies...


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## Imurg (Jun 24, 2022)

Interesting timing of this announcement...1/4  of the way through a tournament in which a few of the LIV players are in...
Will it affect their mindset for the 2nd round..?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not sure how they can fine them - unless it's somewhere in their 'disciplinary' rules.
		
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Nor me. However, there must be something in there to merit the fine. I'm sure the DP World Tour have combed through every possible detail with their lawyers to ensure that their response is difficult to appeal. They've had long enough to think it over as well.


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## Springveldt (Jun 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you will find he is already being judged for adding cereal to his milk, not milk to his cereal, whilst confirming he is staying . Max Homa and Justin Thomas have already questioned his state of mind for this approach.
		
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Deserves to be questioned as well. What kind of mind thinks that it's ok to pour out the milk first then add cereal and have it splash all over the place.


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## Springveldt (Jun 24, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			DP Tour have fined LIV members £100,000 and suspended them from upcoming event
		
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How can they fine them? I'm betting most just resign from the tour now rather than pay the fine and hope they are allowed to play again.


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

Think it’s safe to say Keith Pelley is a yes man, I think he had an opportunity to bring all the bodies together and try and improve the tours as a whole, we all want to see the best players competing and DJ, Brooks, Sergio, Bryson on their day can still compete at the highest level.
The European tour lost a lot of good players to the PGA (primarily money)and is basically a second rate tour minus the Rolex events.
I’m not sure what needs to happen but everything that’s going on right now in my opinion is not good for the game of golf.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Think it’s safe to say Keith Pelley is a yes man, I think he had an opportunity to bring all the bodies together and try and improve the tours as a whole, we all want to see the best players competing and DJ, Brooks, Sergio, Bryson on their day can still compete at the highest level.
The European tour lost a lot of good players to the PGA (primarily money)and is basically a second rate tour minus the Rolex events.
I’m not sure what needs to happen but everything that’s going on right now in my opinion is not good for the game of golf.
		
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Non of what is happening is good for the future of the European Tour or whatever its called now.

Not really wanting to get into this thread but I don't understand the love for the PGA Tour after all it is taking all our best players over there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Think it’s safe to say Keith Pelley is a yes man, I think he had an opportunity to bring all the bodies together and try and improve the tours as a whole, we all want to see the best players competing and DJ, Brooks, Sergio, Bryson on their day can still compete at the highest level.
The European tour lost a lot of good players to the PGA (primarily money)and is basically a second rate tour minus the Rolex events.
I’m not sure what needs to happen but everything that’s going on right now in my opinion is not good for the game of golf.
		
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The issue is the ET have only recently made a lot of arrangements with the PGA tour hence the Co sanctioned events and the increased sponsorship and prize money - do go against them wouldn’t be the smartest move imo


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Non of what is happening is good for the future of the European Tour or whatever its called now.

Not really wanting to get into this thread but I don't understand the love for the PGA Tour after all it is taking all our best players over there.
		
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I’m the same as you, the best European players only come back across the pond for the big money events, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Scotland etc.
There’s so much hypocrisy it’s not real.


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The issue is the ET have only recently made a lot of arrangements with the PGA tour hence the Co sanctioned events and the increased sponsorship and prize money - do go against them wouldn’t be the smartest move imo
		
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Im not really disagreeing but the whole thing is a mess, I thought Keith Pelley was a strong leader looking from the outside in, but this to me proves otherwise.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Im not really disagreeing but the whole thing is a mess, I thought Keith Pelley was a strong leader looking from the outside in, but this to me proves otherwise.
		
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If you were in charge instead of Pelley, what would you have done?


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you were in charge instead of Pelley, what would you have done?
		
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Good question, but not one that I can answer as I’ve no experience in his line of work, I’d like to think that him and his board could off came up with something more constructive for the game of golf as a whole.
He’s paid to make tough decisions and to me what he has done is a cop out.


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’m the same as you, the best European players only come back across the pond for the big money events, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Scotland etc.
There’s so much hypocrisy it’s not real.
		
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Sort of agree with that. Staying away from the source of the funding (that is never going to look good), european tour players headed over to the PGA to earn more money and play for bigger prize pots. Now people are leaving the PGA to earn more money and play for bigger prize pots.


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## JamesR (Jun 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Non of what is happening is good for the future of the European Tour or whatever its called now.

Not really wanting to get into this thread but I don't understand the love for the PGA Tour after all it is taking all our best players over there.
		
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I don't think it's so much a case of the PGA tour are a great organisation, which is beloved by those on the forum.
But I don't think it's as bad as is being made out by those who think the LIV tour is the greatest thing since sliced bread.


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2022)

Out of interest, anyone know what the other obligations are to be a member of the PGA tour. Do you need to play a set number of events, play in certain events etc. Just interested if there are any other reasons people may be leaving aside from just the money. Once golfers have hit the top, do they want to be touring around the US week in, week out to fulfil tour obligations if there are any. I suspect quite a few would rather just enter the majors, a couple of events in the build up and enough to stay qualifies in teh rankings (bit like the Williams sisters in tennis). Not arguing one way or another, just trying to understand a bit more.


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I don't think it's so much a case of the PGA tour are a great organisation, which is beloved by those on the forum.
But I don't think it's as bad as is being made out by those who think the LIV tour is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
		
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I am neither of those (honestly really don't care either way from a golfing point of view, obviously have a view on the source of funding) . As an impartial observer, I can have seen the PGA assett strip the other global tours for the best golfers with the promise money, fame etc and can now see someone doing it to them and they do not like a taste of their own medicene. That said, until the other week, golf on TV was all behind a paywall and did not exist to me, now I get to watch come golf.


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## AAC (Jun 24, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Im allowing buggies...
		
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and carer's instead of caddies ?


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## Bdill93 (Jun 24, 2022)

AAC said:



			and carer's instead of caddies ?
		
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If needed - Its an inclusive event!


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## Backsticks (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Good question, but not one that I can answer as I’ve no experience in his line of work, I’d like to think that him and his board could off came up with something more constructive for the game of golf as a whole.
He’s paid to make tough decisions and to me what he has done is a cop out.
		
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It comes up repeatedly. But why does anyone link the multibillion industry of elite professional golf tours as entertainment, with 'the game of golf as a whole' ?


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It comes up repeatedly. But why does anyone link the multibillion industry of elite professional golf tours as entertainment, with 'the game of golf as a whole' ?
		
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Why do you think it’s not?
These are the people at the top of their chosen profession, surely they have an obligation do to what’s right for the game from grass roots up.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Why do you think it’s not?
These are the people at the top of their chosen profession, surely they have an obligation do to what’s right for the game from grass roots up.
		
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Keith Pelley is CEO of the PGA European Tour. His responsibility is to them. The decision he made will not have been his alone. I am sure there have been plenty of discussions leading up to this announcement. Part of what Pelley said was:

"Every action anyone takes in life comes with a consequence and it is no different in professional sport, especially if a person chooses to break the rules. That is what has occurred here with several of our members.

Many members I have spoken to in recent weeks expressed the viewpoint that those who have chosen this route have not only disrespected them and our Tour, but also the meritocratic ecosystem of professional golf.

Their actions are not fair to the majority of our membership and undermine the Tour, which is why we are taking the action we have announced today."

Therefore, he and the European Tour have made their decision based on many discussions going on behind the scenes. I am sure they want to maintain a good relationship with the PGA Tour, with several co-sanctioned events. We've no idea what his long term vision is. But, maybe he sees a strengthening relationship with the PGA Tour an extremely positive thing for the European Tour, and sees no mileage with developing a good relationship with LIV at this time


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## garyinderry (Jun 24, 2022)

Leaving the Saudi aspect out of this I can honestly say the LIV series does nothing for me. I was quite happy as a golf fan with the product that was presented. I enjoy the big tournaments outside of the majors. I like the smaller events, mainly the early season tournaments that give new players a chance to make a name for themselves or get a breakthrough win.
The LIV series to me doesnt seem to grow the game at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It currently has some complete no names in the field but that isn't their aim. They want the 50 most popular players playing. Not even the best 50 or phil wouldn't be anywhere near it. Even at that, its then a closed shop. How can anyone strive to qualify to play in it. There is no competition. Watching the same 50 guys play over and over doesnt excite me one bit.
The 3 round shot gun start thing too doesnt do it for me. I have no desire to see a mutiscreen putt out to see who wins. It might be cool once or twice. I enjoy watching a tournament come to its conclusion. I dont want my attention being dragged in multiple differnt directions in a short space of time.
Constantly going on about a team thing for 3 days is unbelievably tiring. I've watched guys miss half million pound putts for years. I literally couldn't care about how 4 players are going to spit 750,000 dollars. To keep going on about it for 3 days straight is mind boggling. Even if it was for 10 million I wouldn't care one bit.

As a golf fan, I am struggling to see why anyone bar the player$ would be happy to see the game they love getting torn apart at a professional level.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Forgive my cynicism, but after watching McGinley here, I cant help thinking the PGA Tour have learned on the DP World tour a little.
Funding for the Scottish Open purse coming from PGA links, and all of a sudden the LIV players are banned 

And of course, McGinley has a vested interest in both tours.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...ions-were-inventible-something-had-to-be-done


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## Wilson (Jun 24, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, anyone know what the other obligations are to be a member of the PGA tour. Do you need to play a set number of events, play in certain events etc. Just interested if there are any other reasons people may be leaving aside from just the money. Once golfers have hit the top, do they want to be touring around the US week in, week out to fulfil tour obligations if there are any. I suspect quite a few would rather just enter the majors, a couple of events in the build up and enough to stay qualifies in teh rankings (bit like the Williams sisters in tennis). Not arguing one way or another, just trying to understand a bit more.
		
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I don't know the full details, but there are a minimum number of events I think, and I'm sure they introduced a rule in the last year or so, where you have to play every event at least once every 3 years, so make sure all events get the top players etc.


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## Backsticks (Jun 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Why do you think it’s not?
These are the people at the top of their chosen profession, surely they have an obligation do to what’s right for the game from grass roots up.
		
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They dont, no. They have an obligation to make money for their member professional golfers.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Non of what is happening is good for the future of the European Tour or whatever its called now.

Not really wanting to get into this thread but I don't understand the love for the PGA Tour after all it is taking all our best players over there.
		
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ET/DP World Tour has always been primarily a development site with the best moving on to The PGA Tour for larger rewards playing the rest of the best in the world. Currently, LIV is simply a 'sports-washing' exercise with the initial participants 'bought' by a regime with virtually bottomless pockets. 
The initial participants were always likely to be those looking for big rewards before retiring (even more) comfortably. A couple have been slight surprises, but absolutely huge sign-on fees probably/may have swayed them.

The biggest danger I can see for LIV is that it won't develop and will simply be ignored by the great unwashed public, thus becoming just an irrelevant expense for SA. I don't think it'll happen for a while, if at all, but loss of OWGR points will deter many players imo. With the 'closed shop' that exists in the group that decides allocating tours, I believe it'll be quite a struggle to get on the list. So, unless it evolves significantly to a proper Tour, it could become simply a more lucrative, earlier, version of The Senior Tour. And that, imo, would be a 'fail' for the exercise. The team format and shotgun starts are merely gimmicky 'differentiators' and will possibly be dropped in the future. It's Golf that attendees/audiences want to see - and the better the Golf, the more will want to see it. The PGA Tour, for all its selfishness, and Majors are the places to see the best golf now and I can't see that changing for some time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Forgive my cynicism, but after watching McGinley here, I cant help thinking the PGA Tour have learned on the DP World tour a little.
Funding for the Scottish Open purse coming from PGA links, and all of a sudden the LIV players are banned

And of course, McGinley has a vested interest in both tours.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...ions-were-inventible-something-had-to-be-done

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The Scottish Open is a co-sanctioned event🤷‍♂️

So as the players are no longer PGA Members after being banned then why is it a shock that they are not able to play in it


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2022)

Forgive me if I’ve missed it, as I can’t be bothered reading all the posts.

But has Mel show any actual evidence that the management of the PGA Tour is corrupt?


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## JamesR (Jun 24, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Forgive me if I’ve missed it, as I can’t be bothered reading all the posts.

But has Mel show any actual evidence that the management of the PGA Tour is corrupt?
		
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That'll be a big fat No


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Jesus wept.
		
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Perhaps he did*, but you may be mistaken about which posts made him weep. Perhaps yours did?

*if he ever really existed.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Scottish Open is a co-sanctioned event🤷‍♂️

So as the players are no longer PGA Members after being banned then why is it a shock that they are not able to play in it
		
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So the PGA Tour is calling the shots on what should be one of the Flag ship events on the European Tour?

European Tour really is in a bad position......


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			So the PGA Tour is calling the shots on what should be one of the Flag ship events on the European Tour?

European Tour really is in a bad position......
		
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The ET has been for 20 years. Is it really a surprise to anyone. 

Other than a few marquee events, at best it’s at the same level as the Korn Ferry.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			So the PGA Tour is calling the shots on what should be one of the Flag ship events on the European Tour?

European Tour really is in a bad position......
		
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It’s a co sanctioned event - if someone is banned from one of the tours they are ineligible to play 🤷‍♂️


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## sunshine (Jun 24, 2022)

I've noticed the spelling on the forum has become more coherent today - what has changed?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a co sanctioned event - if someone is banned from one of the tours they are ineligible to play 🤷‍♂️
		
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Is it not strange they are okay to play this week on European Tour.......

Take your rose tainted spectacles off for a moment, PGA Tour is calling the shots here...

Besides I thought they had all resigned PGA Tour membership so it's nowt to do with them.

That's me on the subject, off to Scotland for the weekend


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## sunshine (Jun 24, 2022)

I must admit I do find it strange that people are questioning the "charity" status of the PGA Tour. I'm not an expert in this, but the organisation clearly is not classed as a charity (thanks Ethan for sharing tax status), it is simply an organisation that distributes all its income to its members, so it doesn't make a profit to be taxed, but the members are taxed on that distributed income.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I must admit I do find it strange that people are questioning the "charity" status of the PGA Tour. I'm not an expert in this, but the organisation clearly is not classed as a charity (thanks Ethan for sharing tax status), it is simply an organisation* that distributes all its income to its members, so it doesn't make a profit to be taxed,* but the members are taxed on that distributed income.
		
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Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then?


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## BrianM (Jun 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They dont, no. They have an obligation to make money for their member professional golfers.
		
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We will have to disagree here, I’m in the belief that in any business you lead from the top and you do what you can to make sure the business keeps on thriving from development of youth, to working with golf clubs / schools, this will hopefully ensure good quality coming through and making the business more attractive to sponsors etc.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then?

View attachment 43196

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Read the extensive info on the IRS website about the tax eexmpt status, and I am sure you will find your answer.


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then?

View attachment 43196

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What the hell has that got to do with its charitable status,  or where the funds are eventually distributed to.


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## IainP (Jun 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, there was wonder what the DP World Tour would do. Some hoped that they would allow LIV players to play in the DP events, improve the quality of field.

However, they have gone the other way, and look to categorically align themselves with the PGA Tour.

Golfing politics gets more interesting.
		
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I read it as they can play in the DP events, but not the co-sanctioned events and end of year points qualifying things. So likely the lower value events.
The fine is interesting,  on the one hand probably not a lot to most of the liv gang. But will they pay up or resign?
For the Europeans wonder if Ryder Cup is potentially back on for them if fine paid?

Note a few people asking if the Scottish Open is really an open now 😉  (I know even Opens have rules)


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 24, 2022)

Apparently LIV have picked up all the fines, costs etc for the DP World players affected today.

They miss 3 events, but obviously have The Open (if qualified) and Portland to look forward to.

Doubt any of them are that arsed now about todays announcement.

It also means that we could well see some of the LIV players competing in the remaining DP WT or Asian Tour events to get the OWGR points thay may want for major qualification.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apparently LIV have picked up all the fines, costs etc for the DP World players affected today.

They miss 3 events, but obviously have The Open (if qualified) and Portland to look forward to.

Doubt any of them are that arsed now about todays announcement.
		
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Of course they aren’t - they are all being given vast amounts of money 🤷‍♂️


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## fenwayrich (Jun 24, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Leaving the Saudi aspect out of this I can honestly say the LIV series does nothing for me. I was quite happy as a golf fan with the product that was presented. I enjoy the big tournaments outside of the majors. I like the smaller events, mainly the early season tournaments that give new players a chance to make a name for themselves or get a breakthrough win.
The LIV series to me doesnt seem to grow the game at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It currently has some complete no names in the field but that isn't their aim. They want the 50 most popular players playing. Not even the best 50 or phil wouldn't be anywhere near it. Even at that, its then a closed shop. How can anyone strive to qualify to play in it. There is no competition. Watching the same 50 guys play over and over doesnt excite me one bit.
The 3 round shot gun start thing too doesnt do it for me. I have no desire to see a mutiscreen putt out to see who wins. It might be cool once or twice. I enjoy watching a tournament come to its conclusion. I dont want my attention being dragged in multiple differnt directions in a short space of time.
Constantly going on about a team thing for 3 days is unbelievably tiring. I've watched guys miss half million pound putts for years. I literally couldn't care about how 4 players are going to spit 750,000 dollars. To keep going on about it for 3 days straight is mind boggling. Even if it was for 10 million I wouldn't care one bit.

As a golf fan, I am struggling to see why anyone bar the player$ would be happy to see the game they love getting torn apart at a professional level.
		
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This sums up my opinion of LIV perfectly. No more words required.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then?

View attachment 43196

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Read the 2nd sentence of the description!
As for the legitimacy of the 'Retained Earnings', that falls within the rules of NPOs. NPO's aren't actually allowed to distribute 'profits' to 'individuals' (there's a few different categories involved).
Of course, it would be daft to distribute all net earnings every year. The 5.3% increase in Retained Assets seems reasonable. Of course, they could reduce that and help the IRS at the same time, by paying Monahan more!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 24, 2022)

My take on it all, for what it’s worth

The DP Tour is a lesser tour than the PGA tour, certain events are Co sanctioned, but the PGA probably have a bigger say.

The PGA tour is far from perfect, as is the DP 

LIV have launched a hostile attempt to poach the most popular players to form a breakaway tour with a slightly different format. Offering huge sums of dosh to attract these players.

LIV has limitations on number of players at each event, they claim to want to grow the game, but I have yet to see how golf at grass roots level will benefit.

The 1 tournament so far produced fairly mediocre golf

The PGA has launched a robust campaign to defend itself and to stop players defecting, you cannot blame them for this, what the chief exec of the PGA earns is not part of the argument.

LIV players have been banned from PGA and Co sanctioned events inc the Scottish Open.

The DP have banned LIV players £100000 each and banned them from 3 events.

Where the Ryder Cup / Ranking points stand in all of this, Lord knows

Have I missed anything?


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			My take on it all, for what it’s worth

The DP Tour is a lesser tour than the PGA tour, certain events are Co sanctioned, but the PGA probably have a bigger say.

The PGA tour is far from perfect, as is the DP

LIV have launched a hostile attempt to poach the most popular players to form a breakaway tour with a slightly different format. Offering huge sums of dosh to attract these players.

LIV has limitations on number of players at each event, they claim to want to grow the game, but I have yet to see how golf at grass roots level will benefit.

The 1 tournament so far produced fairly mediocre golf

The PGA has launched a robust campaign to defend itself and to stop players defecting, you cannot blame them for this, what the chief exec of the PGA earns is not part of the argument.

LIV players have been banned from PGA and Co sanctioned events inc the Scottish Open.

The DP have banned LIV players £100000 each and banned them from 3 events.

Where the Ryder Cup / Ranking points stand in all of this, Lord knows

*Have I missed anything?*

Click to expand...

All the interesting bits like 'Why?' 'Who?', 'How much?', 'How will this affect Golf?'


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			All the interesting bits like 'Why?' 'Who?', 'How much?', 'How will this affect Golf?'
		
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Didn’t know you did “interesting” Foxy 😂


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Didn’t know you did “interesting” Foxy 😂
		
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All depends what one considers 'interesting'!


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## JamesR (Jun 24, 2022)

I see even Charles Coody’s grandson was approached, but turned down LIV.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I see even Charles Coody’s grandson was approached, but turned down LIV.
		
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Specialist Par 3 player?


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## sunshine (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then?

View attachment 43196

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I assume you are referring to the closing net assets position? Well I’m not the CFO of the PGA Tour so I don’t have a detailed breakdown and I’m not going to search their financial statements. 

However, receipts and payments fall due at different times of the year, so it may have received income from sponsors and TV companies but not yet paid suppliers or distributed the funds to the members. 

A bit like a golf club that collects annual subscriptions at the start of the year and then spends the cash over 12 months. The balance sheet at year end looks really healthy because it has a load of advance subs.


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## JamesR (Jun 24, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I assume you are referring to the closing net assets position? Well I’m not the CFO of the PGA Tour so I don’t have a detailed breakdown and I’m not going to search their financial statements. 

However, receipts and payments fall due at different times of the year, so it may have received income from sponsors and TV companies but not yet paid suppliers or distributed the funds to the members. 

A bit like a golf club that collects annual subscriptions at the start of the year and then spends the cash over 12 months. The balance sheet at year end looks really healthy because it has a load of advance subs.
		
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balance sheet shows position, the Income statement shows performance.

But the position is only on that specific day. It can change significantly the next day.


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## woofers (Jun 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain where the 1.2 billion dollars has come from then
		
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I guess it could be the accumulated funds from the previous years, if you look carefully you’ll see that on line 4 it says “Net assets or fund balances at beginning of year” and this 1.15b comprises the bulk of the 1.2b. Of the income figure, 95% has been paid out as expenses, leaving less than 5% to be retained and carried over to reserves. It would be foolish not to do so, thereby creating over time a healthy balance to be used in emergencies, unforeseen situations, etc.



sunshine said:



			A bit like a golf club that collects annual subscriptions at the start of the year and then spends the cash over 12 months. The balance sheet at year end looks really healthy because it has a load of advance subs.
		
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Possibly, although it depends on the accounting method. A pure cash transactions basis would show a healthy situation and balance, but an accruals basis would show a healthy bank figure but also a liability for ‘prepayments’ which pertain to the upcoming year and therefore a lower nett balance.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 25, 2022)

Buying the game.....




			About a month ago, Coody, who was then wrapping up his senior year at the University of Texas, turned down what he and his father Kyle described as a “multi-million-dollar” offer from the Saudi-financed LIV Golf Series. The deal would have made Pierceson, who earned $31,125 in his first two KFT starts, an instant millionaire, with a chance to get even richer in LIV’s huge-purse, no-cut events.

But Coody, 22, who earned his Korn Ferry membership by finishing first in the 2022 PGA University Series, said that while signing with LIV would have given him financial security, it also would have taken something away: his lifelong dream of playing on the PGA Tour.

“I might be sitting on my couch with millions in my bank account watching my friends play on the PGA Tour, and that would have been devastating,” Coody said.
		
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https://golf.com/news/ex-college-star-reveals-liv-golf-recruitment/


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## IainP (Jun 25, 2022)

Musings:

Wonder if they have been surprised by the rejections? (i.e. money doesn't always work). If they had projections and whether they are ahead or behind.

There's plenty to be critical of with the approach and the current 'product' they've come up with. However if trying to disrupt and enter this 'marketplace' don't think I'm astute enough to propose what it should have been instead. 'Buying' DP world has been mentioned I guess, but expect with USA being such a large golf market that was part of the goal.

We've heard the money reserves are massive, and cash can 'sort' a lot of things. So wonder if ultimately it will be the punters who will influence the conclusion. Plenty of strong opions on here, and all around, but suspect it may be a year from now before that's really clear. And the world is a big place.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Buying the game.....




https://golf.com/news/ex-college-star-reveals-liv-golf-recruitment/

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Looks like they've got this guy, ranked number 2 in the World Amateur standings.

https://ten-golf.com/es/grandes-cir...a-se-para-a-profesional-y-firma-con-liv-golf/


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 25, 2022)

This narrative that the PGA are the good guys and the Liv Tour are the bad guys is misleading. 

Yes the origin of the money on the Liv Tour has its issues for sure but I don't hear F1 drivers, boxers, ATP tennis stars getting the same backlash as the Golfers which I don't think is fair.

The PGA Tour is driving this narrative hence why they never refer to it as the Liv Tour, they always say the Saudi Golf League which isn't its title. 

The Liv Tour is just offering an alternative for these Independant contractors to consider, the players should be able to choose where they play and have that decision respected either way. 
I don't think it's fair that the guys staying on the PGA Tour are the saints with halos and the Liv guys are the devil incarnate with horns coming out of their heads

The PGA Tour has all the history but it is and has been far from the perfect organisation for looking after the players(it's members) like other major USA sports organisations and it is largely this fact that we are in this situation in the 1st place. 

I also have to laugh when people say there is no history on the Liv Tour 🙄
Think those people need to look up the definition of the word history. 
The PGA Tour had no history when it 1st started and nobody right now can predict where we will be in 20 years time. 
It is just possible the Centurion London that was ridiculed by many is a historic event they all want to win in 20 years because it was the 1st ever event on the Liv Tour...


This is worth a watch for a reason why players maybe are considering the Liv Tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This narrative that the PGA are the good guys and the Liv Tour are the bad guys is misleading.
		
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I don’t see many saying that PGA Tour is the good guys as such so not sure who is driving this narrative 




			Yes the origin of the money on the Liv Tour has its issues for sure but I don't hear F1 drivers, boxers, ATP tennis stars getting the same backlash as the Golfers which I don't think is fair.
		
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It’s a golf forum so the focus will be on the golfers - have seen plenty be critical about Joshua going to Saudi - 

Have Saudi Arabia created a new -F1 tour or tennis tour ? 




			The PGA Tour is driving this narrative hence why they never refer to it as the Liv Tour, they always say the Saudi Golf League which isn't its title.
		
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But it’s the Saudi Golf league at the end of the day tbh - it’s fully funded by the State of Saudi Arabia 




			The Liv Tour is just offering an alternative for these Independant contractors to consider, the players should be able to choose where they play and have that decision respected either way.
		
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And the tours should be able to chose who can be a member on their tour surely ?

the LIV tour is a closed shop with invites only and multi millions in appearance money 

Anyone has the chance to play on the PGA Tour via qualifying 




			I don't think it's fair that the guys staying on the PGA Tour are the saints with halos and the Liv guys are the devil incarnate with horns coming out of their heads
		
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Not sure about these saints and devils 🤷‍♂️

But the ones staying are the ones that want to continue supporting the tour and not just going to another tour for millions 




			The PGA Tour has all the history but it is and has been far from the perfect organisation for looking after the players(it's members) like other major USA sports organisations and it is largely this fact that we are in this situation in the 1st place.
		
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Again don’t think anyone has said the PGA tour is perfect - and not sure what the issue is in regards “looking after the players” ? 




			I also have to laugh when people say there is no history on the Liv Tour 🙄
Think those people need to look up the definition of the word history.
The PGA Tour had no history when it 1st started and nobody right now can predict where we will be in 20 years time.
It is just possible the Centurion London that was ridiculed by many is a historic event they all want to win in 20 years because it was the 1st ever event on the Liv Tour...


This is worth a watch for a reason why players maybe are considering the Liv Tour.







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No idea what the history part is about 

But for example would a golfer prefer to win the Canadian Open or the London Invitatonal 

Or the Memorial or Portland Invitational


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This narrative that the PGA are the good guys and the Liv Tour are the bad guys is misleading.

Yes the origin of the money on the Liv Tour has its issues for sure but I don't hear F1 drivers, boxers, ATP tennis stars getting the same backlash as the Golfers which I don't think is fair.

The PGA Tour is driving this narrative hence why they never refer to it as the Liv Tour, they always say the Saudi Golf League which isn't its title.

The Liv Tour is just offering an alternative for these Independant contractors to consider, the players should be able to choose where they play and have that decision respected either way.
I don't think it's fair that the guys staying on the PGA Tour are the saints with halos and the Liv guys are the devil incarnate with horns coming out of their heads

The PGA Tour has all the history but it is and has been far from the perfect organisation for looking after the players(it's members) like other major USA sports organisations and it is largely this fact that we are in this situation in the 1st place.

I also have to laugh when people say there is no history on the Liv Tour 🙄
Think those people need to look up the definition of the word history.
The PGA Tour had no history when it 1st started and nobody right now can predict where we will be in 20 years time.
It is just possible the Centurion London that was ridiculed by many is a historic event they all want to win in 20 years because it was the 1st ever event on the Liv Tour...


This is worth a watch for a reason why players maybe are considering the Liv Tour.







Click to expand...

Rubbish. The players on the PGA Tour signed up to the rules of the PGA Tour. They are independent contractors, noting the word contractors. That involves a contract. They are free to clear off and play where they like, but they can't bitch and moan about freedom to play. The PGA Tour has looked after players very well, with plenty of players who wouldn't be recognised if they stood next to their tour bags with their name on it making millions and NetJetting all over the country to events.

Who said the players who stay on the PGA Tour are saints with haloes?. I didn't. But you are deluded if you think that the players who joined the Saudi Golf League did so for any reason other than to get their snouts in the big money trough, and they presumably care nothing for the source of that money or the sportwashing effect. The Saudi League does have history, but it is the history of Saudi Arabia.

If you want to watch the Saudi Golf League, fine, good luck to you, but don't pretend there is anything virtuous about it, or it is righting some wrong. There really isn't.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea what the history part is about

But for example would a golfer prefer to win the Canadian Open or the London Invitatonal

Or the Memorial or Portland Invitational
		
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You need time for history to be gained is what I was saying. 
The Liv Tour might be been and gone in 2-3 years, it might in time become the bigger tour if the higher % of top players move to it. 

I wish both tours could come to an agreement where they coexist but that's looking less and less likely. 

It's impossible to predict how this is all going to play out but it looks like it's going to get more messy from what I was told yesterday from a person in and around the players and events on a regular basis.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
But for example would a golfer prefer to win the Canadian Open or the London Invitatonal

Or the Memorial or Portland Invitational
		
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Financially, with about 3 times the reward, obviously Centurion's event. And even Portland's winning share is likely to be greater than that at The Memorial! They would be daft if they didn't! But that's not the only criteria - at least for many/most.

I don't believe any player should be criticised for their personal decision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			You need time for history to be gained is what I was saying.
The Liv Tour might be been and gone in 2-3 years, it might in time become the bigger tour if the higher % of top players move to it.

I wish both tours could come to an agreement where they coexist but that's looking less and less likely.

It's impossible to predict how this is all going to play out but it looks like it's going to get more messy from what I was told yesterday from a person in and around the players and events on a regular basis.
		
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I don’t think there is space for both tours to co exist with players doing both - believe it’s around 14 events for the LIV tour each year plus the majors

The LIV will continue to be a “rebel” tour , it will be somewhere for those at the end of their career to go to along with those that are happy to just get some life changing money in quickly without having to go through lots of work and qualifying 

It will be for people who won’t be concerned about the majors 

And then the Saudi PIF will need to make a choice - continue to fund that sort of Tour or just pull it 

There could have been a lot better ways for it all to work 

Have a co sanctioned world tour with big events during the down time on smaller events , with good prize money etc

The minute they offered £100’s mil to multiple players just for playing in it was the straw that broke it all - it goes into sportswashing


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			... *sportswashing*

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Isn't that equally applicable to DP World's sponsorship/naming of the European Tour?
There are plenty of Human Rights issues with UAE!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised to see LIV planning to go to more events than 14 in the coming years, if the PGA Tour continue to block players from taking part in their events.

They scheduled this year around the main competetive fixtures in the golfing calendar in an attempt to work with the PGA, but this has been obviously rebuffed.

The advantage for LIV, is they are a global tour, so can move between hemispheres if they so wish to provide year round competetitions, it also means they can have draft players from around the world, so teams can be picked to provide "local" players the chance to play where they have the bigger followings.

They have much more scope to expand as an international entity than the PGA or any other tours for that matter.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I wouldn't be surprised to see LIV planning to go to more events than 14 in the coming years, if the PGA Tour continue to block players from taking part in their events.

They scheduled this year around the main competetive fixtures in the golfing calendar in an attempt to work with the PGA, but this has been obviously rebuffed.

The advantage for LIV, is they are a global tour, so can move between hemispheres if they so wish to provide year round competetitions, it also means they can have draft players from around the world, so teams can be picked to provide "local" players the chance to play where they have the bigger followings.

They have much more scope to expand as an international entity than the PGA or any other tours for that matter.
		
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I thought the PGA Tour was played all year round? Is it not? Furthermore, they are not necessarily restricted to.being played on US soil


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I thought the PGA Tour was played all year round? Is it not? Furthermore, they are not necessarily restricted to.being played on US soil
		
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But could you see the PGA tour going to South Africa, Australia, Japan, South America maybe? Very much doubt they'd be allowed from the tours in those areas, they could do China of course, because they already run a tour there - but we shan't mention that too loudly. ;-)


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## BrianM (Jun 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I thought the PGA Tour was played all year round? Is it not? Furthermore, they are not necessarily restricted to.being played on US soil
		
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I don’t think this is the case anymore, having a wrap around season, I could be wrong though.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I wouldn't be surprised to see LIV planning to go to more events than 14 in the coming years, if the PGA Tour continue to block players from taking part in their events.

They scheduled this year around the main competetive fixtures in the golfing calendar in an attempt to work with the PGA, but this has been obviously rebuffed.

The advantage for LIV, is they are a global tour, so can move between hemispheres if they so wish to provide year round competetitions, it also means they can have draft players from around the world, so teams can be picked to provide "local" players the chance to play where they have the bigger followings.

They have *much more scope to expand as an international entity than the PGA* or any other tours for that matter.
		
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So you are ignoring existing PGA Tour Canada, PGA Tour Latinoamerica, Korn Ferry Tour (mostly in US though) and PGA Tour China! All are PGA Tour entities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I thought the PGA Tour was played all year round? Is it not? Furthermore, they are not necessarily restricted to.being played on US soil
		
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The Tour Championships is in August and their first event was in September 2021 - think there was some changes planned to move it too Jan through to September and then some extra events after that 

They won’t be able to venture too far due to the Telly market and prime time viewing , i believe that’s why there were some issues when they co sanctioned with the Australian Open and also why a world tour is a tough ask - the big sponsership wants the prime time US market


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So you are ignoring existing PGA Tour Canada, PGA Tour Latinoamerica, Korn Ferry Tour (mostly in US though) and PGA Tour China! All are PGA Tour entities.
		
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Did you miss the bit where I mentioned China ?


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Did you miss the bit where I mentioned China ?
		
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You posted that after I'd 'Quote'd Post 2631.
FWIW The PGA Latinoamerica already goes to Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brazil. along with some Central American countries. Which South American countries would LIV go to that aren't already 'serviced' by The PGA?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You posted that after I'd 'Quote'd Post 2631.
FWIW The PGA Latinoamerica already goes to Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brazil. along with some Central American countries. Which South American countries would LIV go to that aren't already 'serviced' by The PGA?
		
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I actually said - and you can check this by reading my post "South America maybe".

Perhaps you can focus on the context of my post, which is about the LIV being able to be truly global, wheras the PGA Tour has limitations.

If you want to carry on this rather pathetic position you seem happy with, of trying to ridicule posters with pointless comments, I'll just stop responding.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I actually said - and you can check this by reading my post "South America maybe".

Perhaps you can focus on the context of my post, which is about the LIV being able to be truly global, wheras the PGA Tour has limitations.

If you want to carry on this rather pathetic position you seem happy with, of trying to ridicule posters with pointless comments, I'll just stop responding.
		
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Exactly what limitations, virtually unlimited funding aside, does the PGA have that LIV doesn't? Apart, perhaps, the 'good manners' to not stomp all over existing tours?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:





Exactly what limitations, virtually unlimited funding aside, does the PGA have that LIV doesn't? Apart, perhaps, the 'good manners' to not stomp all over existing tours?
		
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Money, it's already been stated. The PGA tour audience won't watch live golf in those areas because they have no vested interest - as I keep saying, it's a golf for America, by America.

LIV isn't and is already generating significant interest in countries where the PGA overlook.

I hardly think Thailand will feel like having Bryson, DJ, Phil, Brooks etc, playing in their country, is "stomping all over their tours" either, do you?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Money, it's already been stated. The PGA tour audience won't watch live golf in those areas because they have no vested interest - as I keep saying, it's a golf for America, by America.

LIV isn't and is already generating significant interest in countries where the PGA overlook.

I hardly think Thailand will feel like having Bryson, DJ, Phil, Brooks etc, playing in their country, is "stomping all over their tours" either, do you?
		
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If LIV have any success worldwide, with global audiences, what would stop the PGA Tour following suit?

Do you think they are so wedded to US soil, that they would not dare play several events globally. Even if it appeared they'd capture a whole host of new fans and global sponsors?

Maybe they felt there was no requirement before. But, if they are being pushed by LIV, I am sure the PGA Tour will react. If you are saying playing golf globally is truly a good thing for the success of a tour, then I see no reason why the PGA Tour would not be able to persue this idea.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If LIV have any success worldwide, with global audiences, what would stop the PGA Tour following suit?

Do you think they are so wedded to US soil, that they would not dare play several events globally. Even if it appeared they'd capture a whole host of new fans and global sponsors?

Maybe they felt there was no requirement before. But, if they are being pushed by LIV, I am sure the PGA Tour will react. If you are saying playing golf globally is truly a good thing for the success of a tour, then I see no reason why the PGA Tour would not be able to persue this idea.
		
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And what will they sack off to go global? Did you see the post tournament analysis after the USPGA, Chamblee and McGinley discussing taking the tournament across the planet - because The PGA is a global organistion right?

"Maybe they could take it overseas once every 7 years or so" !!! Don't bother lads, seriously, total disrespect for the PGA members, and golfers all across the world. 


The LIV can go to say seventeen or eighteen rounds, without having to sacrifice anything on their calendar. All the PGA can do is try and squeeze in a few events in the winter months, when their "superstars" wouldn't want to play, becuase that's when they take a break from the game.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Money, it's already been stated. The PGA tour audience won't watch live golf in those areas because they have no vested interest - as I keep saying, it's a golf for America, by America.

LIV isn't and is already generating significant interest in countries where the PGA overlook.

I hardly think Thailand will feel like having Bryson, DJ, Phil, Brooks etc, playing in their country, is "stomping all over their tours" either, do you?
		
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That makes little/no sense. The PGA LatinoAmerica Tour, while including the word 'America' disproves that, as does The PGA Tour China, suspension because of Covid notwithstanding!

And while not denying your statement about 'significant interest...', I'd be interested to see actual evidence of it - published or otherwise. Do you have insider contacts/knowledge? I've certainly seen 'Asian offices to follow' in some of their documentation


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...All the PGA can do is try and squeeze in a few events in the winter months, when their "superstars" wouldn't want to play, becuase that's when they take a break from the game.
		
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Or they could develop a (feeder?) tour in those areas - as seems to be the case in Latin/South America (and China?). 
If LIV are simply going to send in their 'team' of 'stars' for an over-compensated exhibition, that's hardly going to grow the game in those areas and will just be a 'circus'!


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 25, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540468095709368322


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## pokerjoke (Jun 25, 2022)

Sounds like the LPGA are 💩 themselves.
Announcing big purse increases 
Is it a worry that LIV might try the same with the womens game?


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 25, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Sounds like the LPGA are 💩 themselves.
Announcing big purse increases 
Is it a worry that LIV might try the same with the womens game?
		
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If Liv do the same thing for the women's game it will be a total game changer for women professinal players.

The LET tour is really struggling these days with very few tournaments with small purses available.

The worry is would the LPGA or LET survive at all if Liv launched a lucrative women's tour??


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540468095709368322

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As someone who lived, and had family 'discussions', through the Rugby/Apartheid/'81 Springbok tour/'85 Tour cancellation/86 Cavalier Tour controversy in NZ, I can understand Elder's concern! I actually believe that isolation contributed to the change of attitude in SE, but it took tremendous courage from the politicians involved (primarily FW DeKlerk) to admit it and actually make the changes required.
That prejudice almost certainly still exists, perhaps also/even in reverse in SA these days! And Augusta/The Masters certainly isn't a model of progressive attitudes.
But huge amounts of cash is just another tool in the 'diplomatic' toolbox to legitimise or promote otherwise unsavoury governments/methods of governing. How individual sportsmen/women decide to react to such offers is up to them and their particular circumstances.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If Liv do the same thing for the women's game it will be a total game changer for women professinal players.

The LET tour is really struggling these days with very few tournaments with small purses available.

The worry is would the LPGA or LET survive at all if Liv launched a lucrative women's tour??
		
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It might actually 'save' or be beneficial to the LPGA. I'm not sure whether would actually do it - for a couple of reasons - but it would certainly inject a beneficial amount of funding into the Ladies game!


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## Backsticks (Jun 25, 2022)

It would have seemed and easier and less confrontational tour to crack, and bring ladies golf big money and a world platform.
But women in short skirts playing a sport is not an ideal affinity for Saudi Arabia maybe.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is the connection between Performance 54 - they are 54 hole events, and the name of the series LIV - 54 in Roman numerals.

You've probably all seen that Rick Shiels company is part owned by performance 54, plus a few other influencers.
		
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Somehow stumbled from this old post - not sure how, but....
Does it strike you as a bit peculiar that, while you emphasise the '54' link(s), Performance54 has actually been around and associated with Golf PR, marketing etc since 2015 - way before LIV was launched. And Matthew Selby, one of its officers, is also an officer of Rick Shiels's company - and of 'Performance54 Group' that appears to be the 'real' LIV one - as there are 3 Saudi Arabians (and another Performance54 officer) noted as officers. All seems to be an amazing coincidence to MS's 2015 company with '54' in the name!


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 26, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540796805151088641


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540796805151088641

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Too much thinking....I think!


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## AussieKB (Jun 26, 2022)

To put another perspective on this I remember when Tennis was Amateur and the Pro's were banned from all Majors and most other events, then in 1968 after so many turned Professional they finally relented and made the Majors Open to all, seems like it turned out OK.


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## Harley-D (Jun 26, 2022)

Watching Mark Roe and co slagging off the greed of the players transferring i couldn,t help thinking if they were still in contention would they not go for it? Which is worse greed or envy?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 26, 2022)

Harley-D said:



			Watching Mark Roe and co slagging off the greed of the players transferring i couldn,t help thinking if they were still in contention would they not go for it? Which is worse greed or envy?
		
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Element of self interest perhaps, if the PGA / DP implode those commentators may be out of a job.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 26, 2022)

Rickie Fowler
Bubba Watson
Jason Kokrak

Heavily tipped to be the 3 announcements to the Portland Liv field this week.


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Rickie Fowler
Bubba Watson
Jason Kokrak

Heavily tipped to be the 3 announcements to the Portland Liv field this week.
		
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No great loss to the PGA Tour, in my opinion. Fowler is done, Watson not far behind and none of us would recognise Kokrak if he walked up to us and said hello.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			No great loss to the PGA Tour, in my opinion. Fowler is done, Watson not far behind and none of us would recognise Kokrak if he walked up to us and said hello.
		
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Meanwhile the leaderboard at the Travelers is packed full of household names?

Of course they are a loss to THE PGA Tour, they might not challenge anymore, but between all the players that have left, they are well known to millions and millions of golf fans across the world. They have taken that interest and spread it to the new tour. It's going to be devastating long term to the PGA Tour.


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Meanwhile the leaderboard at the Travelers is packed full of household names?

Of course they are a loss to THE PGA Tour, they might not challenge anymore, but between all the players that have left, they are well known to millions and millions of golf fans across the world. They have taken that interest and spread it to the new tour. It's going to be devastating long term to the PGA Tour.
		
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"They may not challenge anymore". That is kinda important, though, dontcha think? Fowler, Watson and Kokrak will not add any viewers to the LIV Tour events. Devastating? Laughable.


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			"They may not challenge anymore". That is kinda important, though, dontcha think? Fowler, Watson and Kokrak will not add any viewers to the LIV Tour events. Devastating? Laughable.
		
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They are names though. And not complete has beens like Phil.
They are not make or break for either tour. But part of a tilting of the balance towards Saudi Arabia. The balance is still on the PGA side, but it is bleeding. Rory, Rahm, Scheffler may find they dont have a tour despite their wishes. They cannot hold back the sunami of money indefintely.
My hope is they all jump, and the sooner the better. The PGA can run a local feeder, Korn Ferry Upgrade to LIV. Like the DP World is tothe PGA today.
With enough weight, the likes of those real top 20 players can insist that the rubbish elements like shotgun and teams (is LIV still sticking with that or have they been deafened by the worldwide laughter  ?) are dumped and the world is back the way we knew it ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Meanwhile the leaderboard at the Travelers is packed full of household names?*

Of course they are a loss to THE PGA Tour, they might not challenge anymore, but between all the players that have left, they are well known to millions and millions of golf fans across the world. They have taken that interest and spread it to the new tour. It's going to be devastating long term to the PGA Tour.
		
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🤷‍♂️
schaffule
Cantlay
Finau
Scheffler 
Kisner 
Laird
Simpson 

Losing players like Watson and Fowler won’t make a difference- both haven’t challenged for years and I’m guessing most don’t have a clue who Kokrak is


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️
I’m guessing most don’t have a clue who Kokrak is
		
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Sounds painful.


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They are names though. And not complete has beens like Phil.
They are not make or break for either tour. But part of a tilting of the balance towards Saudi Arabia. The balance is still on the PGA side, but it is bleeding. Rory, Rahm, Scheffler may find they dont have a tour despite their wishes. They cannot hold back the sunami of money indefintely.
My hope is they all jump, and the sooner the better. The PGA can run a local feeder, Korn Ferry Upgrade to LIV. Like the DP World is tothe PGA today.
With enough weight, the likes of those real top 20 players can insist that the rubbish elements like shotgun and teams (is LIV still sticking with that or have they been deafened by the worldwide laughter  ?) are dumped and the world is back the way we knew it ?
		
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Perhaps, although I don't think that would put the world back the way we knew it. It would put golf in the hands of Saudi.

The alternative is that some of these guys go over, realise they are being paraded around to sportwash Saudi and, to a lesser extent, Trump, the TV/online audiences aren't what they want, they realise the TikTok generation is a very fickle audience, Kevin Na or someone else nobody cares about wins a bunch of events, Phil Mick and DJ hack it around and interest falls off a cliff. The PGA Tour makes a one-time offer that players can come back to the new bigger money closer working PGA/DP World Tour, a number do and the world is back the way we knew it, except we have lost a few has beens or never were


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

evemccc said:



			if he was a “complete has been” that the public cared nothing about, why was he used for every The Match — itself a money-making exercise?
		
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Because he was for sale, and they couldnt get Tiger. The USPGA win was a last gasp.A terrific one, and I was delighted he got it. But he is too old now - his is Champions tour material.


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## evemccc (Jun 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They are names though. *And not complete has beens like Phil.*
They are not make or break for either tour. But part of a tilting of the balance towards Saudi Arabia. The balance is still on the PGA side, but it is bleeding. Rory, Rahm, Scheffler may find they dont have a tour despite their wishes. They cannot hold back the sunami of money indefintely.
My hope is they all jump, and the sooner the better. The PGA can run a local feeder, Korn Ferry Upgrade to LIV. Like the DP World is tothe PGA today.
With enough weight, the likes of those real top 20 players can insist that the rubbish elements like shotgun and teams (is LIV still sticking with that or have they been deafened by the worldwide laughter  ?) are dumped and the world is back the way we knew it ?
		
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Wow…. Not sure about that Phil comment!

The whole purpose of professional sport is to make money - for players, promoters, sponsors, media, and everyone else involved in it

Let’s not kid ourselves about this, the PGA Tour is not for ‘glory’ - the amateurs champs, college golf, the majors are different. The reason to be on the PGA Tour is to make money - and that is the reason corporations and sponsors are involved in it

Phil along with Tiger and latterly Rory, has been a huge driver of the mutual money-making of golf
He won a major 15 months ago, and was involved in every (or at least all but one) versions of The Match —- if he was a “complete has been” that the public cared nothing about, why was he used for every The Match — itself a money-making exercise?


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Pretty sure that even the biggest supporters of the status quo / PGA Tour have said on this thread that they don’t barely watch the


Wow…. Not sure about that Phil comment!

The whole purpose of professional sport is to make money - for players, promoters, sponsors, media, and everyone else involved in it

Let’s not kid ourselves about this, the PGA Tour is not for ‘glory’ - the amateurs champs, college golf, the majors are different. The reason to be on the PGA Tour is to make money - and that is the reason corporations and sponsors are involved in it

Phil along with Tiger and latterly Rory, has been a huge driver of the mutual money-making of golf
He won a major 15 months ago, and was involved in every (or at least all but one) versions of The Match —- if he was a “complete has been” that the public cared nothing about, why was he used for every The Match — itself a money-making exercise?
		
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Nobody said the PGA Tour was all about the glory. It is clearly a commercial activity, whatever its tax exempt status. But that depends on reaching sponsors and TV audiences who can be monetised. The PGA Tour has done that very well, with fat TV contracts, sponsors, advertising and other commercial ventures. 

Phil has been a driver, although that is in decline now. He also has a toxicity, which has been known by some for years but is now becoming better known and not good for the brand. He will not carry the LIV Tour for very long.

Nor will DJ (too dull and vacuous), Brooks (slightly less dull but equally vacuous) or Bryson (too unpredictable and moody). Who will be the face of the LIV Tour, then?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️
schaffule
Cantlay
Finau
Scheffler
Kisner
Laird
Simpson

Losing players like Watson and Fowler won’t make a difference- both haven’t challenged for years and I’m guessing most don’t have a clue who Kokrak is
		
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Theegala
KH Lee
Thorbjornsen
Poston
Hardy
Hodges
Nesmith.

They are not household names.

You think the PGA tour are happy with that leaderboard? We'll see a winning score of 20 something under par by the end of todays round, the courses are being set up easy, just to give them something to write about in tomorrows papers.


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## evemccc (Jun 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Because he was for sale, and they couldnt get Tiger. The USPGA win was a last gasp.A terrific one, and I was delighted he got it. But he is too old now - his is Champions tour material.
		
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Accepted that Tiger is the biggest name in golf, possibly ever and certainly in the last 40 years…

So…they got Phil…You’re accepting he’s No. 2 to US fans then!? Hardly a complete has-been..😂

Mickelson won a major last year. And he almost won the 2016 Open. 

How’s Rory fared in the last 8 years in Majors?

Honestly - right now NO-ONE cares about Sam Burns…it may change in 3-5 years. I’m taking about the people who corporations use golf to sell to 

If Sam Burns makes a breakthrough to general sports fans and the general public, it’ll be because of his performance in the Majors — which are not part of the PGA Tour


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## evemccc (Jun 26, 2022)

And the biggest advocates of the PGA Tour on this thread have basically already said they don’t watch it very often at all anyway!!

It’s the majors and Ryder Cup that the overwhelming majority of golf fans and especially general sports fans and the public take notice of


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Theegala
KH Lee
Thorbjornsen
Poston
Hardy
Hodges
Nesmith.

They are not household names.

You think the PGA tour are happy with that leaderboard? We'll see a winning score of 20 something under par by the end of todays round, the courses are being set up easy, just to give them something to write about in tomorrows papers.
		
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Why wouldn’t they be happy with the leaderboard 🤷‍♂️

Do you expect every leaderboard to be heavily loaded at every event 

do you think the event at Portland will be set up tough or will they look for birdies


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Accepted that Tiger is the biggest name in golf, possibly ever and certainly in the last 40 years…

So…they got Phil…You’re accepting he’s No. 2 to US fans then!? Hardly a complete has-been..😂

Mickelson won a major last year. And he almost won the 2016 Open.

How’s Rory fared in the last 8 years in Majors?

Honestly - right now NO-ONE cares about Sam Burns…it may change in 3-5 years. I’m taking about the people who corporations use golf to sell to

If Sam Burns makes a breakthrough to general sports fans and the general public, it’ll be because of his performance in the Majors — which are not part of the PGA Tour
		
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Rory in the last 8 years in Majors has 


15 top tens 

6 top 5’s

And two runners up 


He will still be very relevant come every major 

Micklson grabbed the win last year which was his first decent finish in 6 years plus - it was a one off and his first win anywhere for 2/3 years and since then I don’t believe he has got anywhere near - it was a swansong 

Mickleson is very much a marmite person , it wasn’t that long ago he was putting Watson under the bus - his relevance is diminishing each week and the LiV tour is a pure money grab for him to pay the debts


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why wouldn’t they be happy with the leaderboard 🤷‍♂️

Do you expect every leaderboard to be heavily loaded at every event

do you think the event at Portland will be set up tough or will they look for birdies
		
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Do you think that if some of the banished players had been playing this weekend, then the leaderboard could have been more interesting?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you think that if some of the banished players had been playing this weekend, then the leaderboard could have been more interesting?
		
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If those banned would have been playing in the event and if those that have been banned would have been challenging - suspect Koepka is prob the one who has won more recently - Feb 21 or maybe BDC in the Arnold Palmer - but the rest there aren’t players that you seen dominated the leaderboards each week

Any future PGA Tour event won’t be diminished by the players leaving - there will always be new players coming into replace them

The PGA Tour will be more than fine with a leaderboard that contains a mix of new blood , the current top dogs and some old stagers


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If those banned would have been playing in the event and if those that have been banned would have been challenging - suspect Koepka is prob the one who has won more recently - Feb 21 or maybe BDC in the Arnold Palmer - but the rest there aren’t players that you seen dominated the leaderboards each week

Any future PGA Tour event won’t be diminished by the players leaving - there will always be new players coming into replace them

The PGA Tour will be more than fine with a leaderboard that contains a mix of new blood , the current top dogs and some old stagers
		
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It's not just about them just challenging though is it? Rory collapsing from a good position - is news. IF BDC had been there and hit a monster drive - it's news, if Reed gains a questionable rules decision - it's news.... All these things make the product attractive to TV companies, and that is how the Tour generates it's money. Without them it will fade, yet nobody seems capable of even ackowledging that.

The LIV series have shown they are targetting the top up and coming players, to try and get them onboard instead of them going to the PGA. As time passes, and more people accept the new series, it will become easier for them to do that. As time passes, sponsors will come into the LIV series, and the funding issue will become much less of the hot potato it is right now. Monahon is trying to fight the LIV series off, his language continues to use references to emphasize that. In reality, the PGA could very well be The Black Night.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's not just about them just challenging though is it? Rory collapsing from a good position - is news. IF BDC had been there and hit a monster drive - it's news, if Reed gains a questionable rules decision - it's news.... All these things make the product attractive to TV companies, and that is how the Tour generates it's money. Without them it will fade, yet nobody seems capable of even ackowledging that.

*The LIV series have shown they are targetting the top up and coming players,* to try and get them onboard instead of them going to the PGA. As time passes, and more people accept the new series, it will become easier for them to do that. As time passes, sponsors will come into the LIV series, and the funding issue will become much less of the hot potato it is right now. Monahon is trying to fight the LIV series off, his language continues to use references to emphasize that. In reality, the PGA could very well be The Black Night.




View attachment 43212

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All getting a little bit ahead of yourself ?

The tour will be more than fine without BDC  driving it long and Patrick Reed getting caught up in cheating rows - the last years events have shown that - there will always be someone to step into the shoes 

who are these “top up and coming” golfers they are targeting?

Isn’t the whole idea of the LiV tour being shorter formats with smaller fields ?

where are all these golfers they are suppose to be getting going to play when there is limited places available 🤷‍♂️

The funding issue will never go away - they will never be able to get enough sponsership etc to cover the level of appearance money they are giving to certain players let alone the huge prize funds - it’s always going to been supplemented by Saudi PIF.

And there will still be the issue of ranking points and players missing majors because of the lack of ranking points

There has been one event which I guess most have forgotten about and you’re talking all about a dramatic shift in the game.

There is just as every chance that in a years time all the players will be back as the tour flops


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Any future PGA Tour event won’t be diminished by the players leaving - there will always be new players coming into replace them
		
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It certainly will be diminished. The claim of presenting the worlds best will be gone. Less interest from fans, less interest from sponsors, less interest from TV.
There can only be one 'best' at the top of world sport. Both are hobbled if they diverge. Neither has credibility as the pinnacle of world golf.
One must win. Its usually the richest in this world.
Touch of Rory and Rahm trying to hold back the tide at the moment. In effect, they cannot win, once any serious element of the top of worlf golf has jumped. And it oretty close now, if not done already.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All getting a little bit ahead of yourself ?

The tour will be more than fine without BDC  driving it long and Patrick Reed getting caught up in cheating rows - the last years events have shown that - there will always be someone to step into the shoes

who are these “top up and coming” golfers they are targeting?

Isn’t the whole idea of the LiV tour being shorter formats with smaller fields ?

where are all these golfers they are suppose to be getting going to play when there is limited places available 🤷‍♂️

The funding issue will never go away - they will never be able to get enough sponsership etc to cover the level of appearance money they are giving to certain players let alone the huge prize funds - it’s always going to been supplemented by Saudi PIF.

And there will still be the issue of ranking points and players missing majors because of the lack of ranking points

There has been one event which I guess most have forgotten about and you’re talking all about a dramatic shift in the game.

There is just as every chance that in a years time all the players will be back as the tour flops
		
Click to expand...

I admire your hopeful, speculative position Phil. I mentioned the young Spanish lad LIV have apparently signed, they will find a way to get OWGR points, at the end of the day, if you have world class golfers playing competetive golf, then why shouldn't they earn ranking points?
Your last comment shows how far off of reality you are when it comes to the LIV series, sorry mate, it's just not going to pan out as you hope it will.


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

If Saudi is persona non grata for whatever reasons at the OWGR table, then no points. Points are only as valuable as who is giving them. The 4 majors, while they dont want to jump too soon sour established tour relationships unnecessarily, fundamentally dont care who makes money out of pro golf. They just need an uncontestibly best field in the world for those 4 weekends. So they can jump, but dont need to make a move yet.


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Theegala
KH Lee
Thorbjornsen
Poston
Hardy
Hodges
Nesmith.

They are not household names.

You think the PGA tour are happy with that leaderboard? We'll see a winning score of 20 something under par by the end of todays round, the courses are being set up easy, just to give them something to write about in tomorrows papers.
		
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Not every PGA Tour leaderboard is packed with household names like Schwartzel, du Plessis, Grace and Uihlein, to be fair. It’s a wonder BBC News didn’t break away from its usual coverage to see which of these legends would prevail.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...

Of course they are a loss to THE PGA Tour, they might not challenge anymore, but between all the players that have left, they are well known to millions and millions of golf fans across the world. They have taken that interest and spread it to the new tour. It's going to be devastating long term to the PGA Tour.
		
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No more than if they simply retired!


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Theegala
KH Lee
Thorbjornsen
Poston
Hardy
Hodges
Nesmith.

They are not household names.

You think the PGA tour are happy with that leaderboard? We'll see a winning score of 20 something under par by the end of todays round, the courses are being set up easy, just to give them something to write about in tomorrows papers.
		
Click to expand...

Notwithstanding your selective deletion of some of the names - including the current 1 & 2 and the lurking Kisner, Travelers doesn't seem to be one where 'top' players dominate. The 2021 results (https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/pga-tour/2021/travelers-championship) certainly indicates that. And the 2020 event, won at 20 under (by DJ, with BdC T6) had plenty (a host even) of relatively unknowns at the top.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I admire your hopeful, speculative position Phil. I mentioned the young Spanish lad LIV have apparently signed, they will find a way to get OWGR points, at the end of the day, if you have world class golfers playing competetive golf, then why shouldn't they earn ranking points?
Your last comment shows how far off of reality you are when it comes to the LIV series, sorry mate, it's just not going to pan out as you hope it will.
		
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who is this young Spanish lad ? 

Is my speculation surely no different than yours ? 

And how can they “find” a way to get OWGR points ? It’s either approved or not by the governing bodies and it’s going to be a very hard sell 

and why are you so confident it wont be a flash in the pan ? There is every chance that it just dies of death when they see that you can’t just buy a tour and there are only so many mercenaries that can be bought


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## IainP (Jun 26, 2022)

As has been said, unless liv suddenly create a number of invitationals the numbers are limited so the PGA Tour isn't really under threat. Diluted a bit, reduced in value a little  - maybe, but the organisation is vast. PGA Tour University anyone!
The likes of Theegala & Thorbjornsen are a reminder how deep and wide the talent pool is these days.


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No more than if they simply retired!
		
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No, more so. Being still active leaves two parallel tracks, with neither being able to claim to have the worlds best golfers, and no one truly knowing which is the best. Thats a recipe for disaster for everyone.


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## IainP (Jun 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, more so. Being still active leaves two parallel tracks, with neither being able to claim to have the worlds best golfers, and no one truly knowing which is the best. Thats a recipe for disaster for everyone.
		
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If the majors manage to stay independent, doesn't that strengthen their position as the showcase for the best?


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, more so. Being still active leaves two parallel tracks, with neither being able to claim to have the worlds best golfers, and no one truly knowing which is the best. Thats a recipe for disaster for everyone.
		
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Not sure why you quoted my post - it's still perfectly valid!
But your 'two parallel tracks' (are they?) is valid-ish. I don't see there being a problem with the 2 separate tours. I certainly believe I know which one, currently, has the greater quality, which is a term that has to be defined, and it ain't LIV!


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

IainP said:



			If the majors manage to stay independent, doesn't that strengthen their position as the showcase for the best?
		
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The issue is 'how does a player qualify for Majors'. With no ability, currently, to allocate OWGR points and with existing Tours being on the body that allows Tours to allocate points, LIV is somewhat hamstrung in that regard.


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## woofers (Jun 26, 2022)

Sunday Times reporting that in the US, Matthew Wolff expected to sign and in Europe speculation around Tommy Fleetwood, (Clare Craig, wife and manager, was at Centurion) and Henrik Stenson‘s management team in talks with LIV.


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## Ethan (Jun 26, 2022)

woofers said:



			Sunday Times reporting that in the US, Matthew Wolff expected to sign and in Europe speculation around Tommy Fleetwood, (Clare Craig, wife and manager, was at Centurion) and Henrik Stenson‘s management team in talks with LIV.
		
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All the players who signed up are either clearly on the slide (Westwood, Poulter, GMac), in a bit of a funk (DJ, Koepka, BdC), or players yet to establish themselves. Stenson is clearly on the slide, Wolff in the funk and Fleetwood possibly one or other, or both. I would wonder about the players in a funk. Most of them are young enough for a good recovery and I think if they get their games back, will start to think more about legacy again, and if entry to majors is impeded by ranking points or other obstacles, may rethink LIV.

On the broader issues, I don't get the continual need to justify the LIV Tour by criticising the financing or raising spurious claims abnout the tax status of the PGA Tour, or whether they give enough of the revenue to the players. 

If anyone likes the LIV Tour and see it as a good thing, great, good for them, feel free to watch it on youtube, and enjoy it. 

But don't pretend it is trying to grow the game, attract new audiences or do anything virtuous, because anyone just makes themselves look deluded by doing so. If anyone are not bothered about Saudi sport washing, that is up to them. If players want to grab more money, fine. They are going in with their eyes open, and since the PGA Tour has said they will be banned, they shouldn't be surprised or affronted when they are banned. They have not been promised entry into majors or OWGR points, so equally they can't protest if or when those organisations decide against them.

I am sure more players will go over, but I expect a few to recant. If I was the PGA Tour, I would offer a one-time return window later this season, then close the doors firmly.


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## Harley-D (Jun 26, 2022)

IMHO there is no space for more golf on tv so am not sure what liv have in mind


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## 4LEX (Jun 26, 2022)

IainP said:



			As has been said, unless liv suddenly create a number of invitationals the numbers are limited so the PGA Tour isn't really under threat. Diluted a bit, reduced in value a little  - maybe, but the organisation is vast. PGA Tour University anyone!
The likes of Theegala & Thorbjornsen are a reminder how deep and wide the talent pool is these days.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. I see some people taking shots at the number of 'unknowns' on the leaderboard at the moment. That is how the PGA operates, it creates and builds players. New talent emerging is part of the process. The total opposite to LIV which is an elite, invite only tour.


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Exactly. I see some people taking shots at the number of 'unknowns' on the leaderboard at the moment. That is how the PGA operates, it creates and builds players. New talent emerging is part of the process. The total opposite to LIV which is an elite, invite only tour.
		
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Agree with most, but would quibble with elite. Its what they might like to have it as. But unless they get at least 40 of the current world top 50, and all of the top 10, then it wont work. At the moment it is part Champions tour, part early retirement, part injury afflicted, part long shots for the future, and real unknowns who cant make the proper tour, rather than elite. A curious melange


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 26, 2022)

woofers said:



			Sunday Times reporting that in the US, Matthew Wolff expected to sign and in Europe speculation around Tommy Fleetwood, (Clare Craig, wife and manager, was at Centurion) and Henrik Stenson‘s management team in talks with LIV.
		
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I mentioned Stenson last week - was rebuffed due to his Ryder Cup involvement. Personally, I think the old "European Tour" and associates are keeping their cards close to their chest - if Portland is regarded as a significant step forward from Centurion, then I wouldn't be surprised to see a move towards an agreement with the DP world tour and LIV. The Ryder Cup needs players from all the current tours, on both teams, and this could be a signifcant factor in finding some common ground for all the players to stay actively involved in the Ryder Cup selection.


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

Ryder Cup will be collateral damage here. Its three days. Its limited to two regions. Its been a good run since 1979, but maybe its day is done.
It certainly is only a cork in the storm that is Saudi v USA.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 26, 2022)

Stenson won’t go - he is the current Ryder Cup captain and the Ryder Cup is still huge within the sport 

There are no Europeans that have gone to the LIV that you would see in the next team and the US have a huge conveyor belt of talent that will replace the three they have that would prob be in the next team 

The Ryder Cup will have no players from the LIV tour


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## Backsticks (Jun 26, 2022)

As long as serious players that would otherwise probably be on the team are ineligible for it, the Ryder Cup is dead. Its credibility will be gone. 
Its probably already dead, but it just doesnt know it yet.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jun 26, 2022)

Is Mel on the LIV payroll or something?


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## Beezerk (Jun 26, 2022)

The cock waving on this thread is breathtaking, keep it up guys it makes great reading 👍😂
Is this classed as flaming or speaking the obvious 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

[


Foxholer said:



*Notwithstanding your selective deletion of some of the names* - including the current 1 & 2 and the lurking Kisner, Travelers doesn't seem to be one where 'top' players dominate. The 2021 results (https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/pga-tour/2021/travelers-championship) certainly indicates that. And the 2020 event, won at 20 under (by DJ, with BdC T6) had plenty (a host even) of relatively unknowns at the top.
		
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Are you aware that Liverpool Phil had already quoted the recognisable names at the top of the leaderboard (and I did quote his post when I replied to make that fairly obvious), and I was countering that with relative unknowns who were up there.

I have had a message from admins making more or less the same point - so I guess somebody may have reported my post - which is a bit of an odd thing to be reporting if that's the case?

The Travelers may not be an event where the top players dominate, but a quick look at the final standings from last year show that Ancer finished 4th, 2 shots off the lead at 1 under and Koepka was T5 at 10 under. Surely that backs up the point that I'm making about the PGA tour being weakened by the banning of LIV players?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			who is this young Spanish lad ?
		
Click to expand...

His name is Eugenio Lopez Chacarra, ranked No 2 on the World mens amateur rankings.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...

The Travelers may not be an event where the top players dominate, but a quick look at the final standings from last year show that Ancer finished 4th, 2 shots off the lead at 1 under and Koepka was T5 at 10 under. Surely that backs up the point that I'm making about the PGA tour being weakened by the banning of LIV players?
		
Click to expand...

And also mine - that it's a tournament where 'the top players' don't seem to shine!
There is no question about fields being 'weakened' - at least in the short term - by the absence/limitations of recognised high quality players.
That's part of the reason, and maybe even the major one, why The PGA Tour is keen to retain players. Banning those that 'desert' is simply a tactical business decision on how to do so, as were the changes announced for 2023. Using its power to prevent OWGR points being allocated to LIV events could well be a future one.

What did you/LIV actually expect? For them to just roll over/not 'fight' back?


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## IainP (Jun 27, 2022)

IainP said:



			I really enjoyed the final round at RBC, even if it was on the same week as a LIV.

I did notice that Rory earned 2 fewer ranking points than his win in 2019.

Significant, maybe not.
Coincidence, perhaps.
		
Click to expand...

Personally as a spectator really enjoyed the finish at the Travelers, if you have 4 or so players close, playing good shots & making mistakes it is good entertainment for me.
Now the numbers are crunched it seems Xander earned 4 fewer ranking points than the winner did last year. It was talked about as a strong field with it being not too far from the US Open. So it does seem some ripples are being felt - even if small ones.


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## Springveldt (Jun 27, 2022)

I see that Brandel Chamblee is reporting that a lot of the players aren’t actually winning any new money yet as the signing bonus is actually guaranteed earnings and any on course winnings are being subtracted from that.

So they only earn new money once they have won more than their guaranteed for the season.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I see that Brandel Chamblee is reporting that a lot of the players aren’t actually winning any new money yet as the signing bonus is actually guaranteed earnings and any on course winnings are being subtracted from that.

So they only earn new money once they have won more than their guaranteed for the season.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541146083526582278


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			His name is Eugenio Lopez Chacarra, ranked No 2 on the World mens amateur rankings.
		
Click to expand...

Who 🤷‍♂️

Looking through his pro starts so far he isn’t exactly what you would call the up and coming stars , as opposed to the young am who just played 4 rounds in the 60’s in the Travellers 


The Spanish lad has just been offered £15-20mil to play - it’s no surprise he will move when the chances of him earning that money are very small. 

Will he get binned out quickly in the same way as Ogletree ?


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541146083526582278

Click to expand...

So definitely (just) an exhibition series!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who 🤷‍♂️

Looking through his pro starts so far he isn’t exactly what you would call the up and coming stars , as opposed to the young am who just played 4 rounds in the 60’s in the Travellers


The Spanish lad has just been offered £15-20mil to play - it’s no surprise he will move when the chances of him earning that money are very small.

Will he get binned out quickly in the same way as Ogletree ?
		
Click to expand...

Pro events different in so many ways to the amatuer world. Remember when a certain Justin Rose turned pro and missed 21 straight cuts. He didn't do too badly


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## Bdill93 (Jun 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			All the players who signed up are either clearly on the slide (Westwood, Poulter, GMac), in a bit of a funk (DJ, Koepka, BdC), or players yet to establish themselves. Stenson is clearly on the slide, Wolff in the funk and Fleetwood possibly one or other, or both. I would wonder about the players in a funk. *Most of them are young enough for a good recovery and I think if they get their games back, will start to think more about legacy again*, and if entry to majors is impeded by ranking points or other obstacles, may rethink LIV.

On the broader issues, I don't get the continual need to justify the LIV Tour by criticising the financing or raising spurious claims abnout the tax status of the PGA Tour, or whether they give enough of the revenue to the players.

If anyone likes the LIV Tour and see it as a good thing, great, good for them, feel free to watch it on youtube, and enjoy it.

But don't pretend it is trying to grow the game, attract new audiences or do anything virtuous, because anyone just makes themselves look deluded by doing so. If anyone are not bothered about Saudi sport washing, that is up to them. If players want to grab more money, fine. They are going in with their eyes open, and since the PGA Tour has said they will be banned, they shouldn't be surprised or affronted when they are banned. They have not been promised entry into majors or OWGR points, so equally they can't protest if or when those organisations decide against them.

I am sure more players will go over, but I expect a few to recant. If I was the PGA Tour, I would offer a one-time return window later this season, then close the doors firmly.
		
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Legacy in golf is measured by major wins. Thats why there is still a debate on Tiger v Jack is it not?

This got me thinking about Tommy Fleetwood.

Real talk - he's never quite cut the mustard on the PGA tour and has not had any tour wins.

He plays golf at this stage probably for enjoyment and for the money, it is after all his job, but also hoping to win a major. He has had a bit more success in those, finishing second twice.

If someone offers you 50 million, straight into your bank account, to play golf elsewhere (with the chance to add plenty more to it) and promise to fight the legal battle so that you can still play majors - you'd go for it right? 

Be really interested to see if he does go one day!


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who 🤷‍♂️

Looking through his pro starts so far he isn’t exactly what you would call the up and coming stars , as opposed to the young am who just played 4 rounds in the 60’s in the Travellers


The Spanish lad has just been offered £15-20mil to play - it’s no surprise he will move when the chances of him earning that money are very small.

Will he get binned out quickly in the same way as Ogletree ?
		
Click to expand...

WAGR certainly can be indicative of Pro performance. BdC was ranked 3rd when he turned pro. John Rahm was 1st for 60 out of 65 weeks in 2015/16. So top guys in WAGR are definitely potential top Pros, though there are plenty that become 'journeymen' too - anyone remember Ollie Schniederjans?


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## Springveldt (Jun 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Legacy in golf is measured by major wins. Thats why there is still a debate on Tiger v Jack is it not?

This got me thinking about Tommy Fleetwood.

Real talk - he's never quite cut the mustard on the PGA tour and has not had any tour wins.

He plays golf at this stage probably for enjoyment and for the money, it is after all his job, but also hoping to win a major. He has had a bit more success in those, finishing second twice.

If someone offers you 50 million, straight into your bank account, to play golf elsewhere (with the chance to add plenty more to it) and promise to fight the legal battle so that you can still play majors - you'd go for it right?

Be really interested to see if he does go one day!
		
Click to expand...

I could see Fleetwood being interested depending on where all the events are played once it expands to 20 events. I'm pretty sure he doesn't like having to stay in the US for the PGA Tour and I think it's probably one of the reasons why he's never won there. He skipped the COVID season due to not wanting to commit to staying in the US full time.

If LIV have more events in Europe I can see him being interested.


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## Springveldt (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541146083526582278

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I doubt Chamblee is outright lying even although he is a complete PGA Tour shill. Someone must have told him that. I'm sure the NLU guys have mentioned it as well, I saw a tweet from TC to Talor Gooch a few days ago basically saying the same thing, so there must at least be rumours of it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539809357151469568


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541146083526582278

Click to expand...

Given that Collins was, for 20 years, a comedian before he fell into caddying (I played a couple of rounds with his first players FiL by chance many years ago) I'm a bit dubious about taking anything he posts as 'gospel'.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was (effectively) the way LIV's payments were made - even as real payments from a LIV pre-funded account, which would provide the documentation Collins posted he/his contact saw.


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## Orikoru (Jun 27, 2022)

I do think the PGA have been a bit kneejerk and silly to ban the players who've signed up to play in the LIV. At some point they'll realise they have to make an embarrassing climbdown and allow players to flit between the tours (as they have done between PGA and the European). Otherwise their events are just going to look weaker and weaker the longer this goes on. Just looks like throwing their toys out of the pram at the moment.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I do think the PGA have been a bit kneejerk and silly to ban the players who've signed up to play in the LIV. At some point they'll realise they have to make an embarrassing climbdown and allow players to flit between the tours (as they have done between PGA and the European). Otherwise their events are just going to look weaker and weaker the longer this goes on. Just looks like throwing their toys out of the pram at the moment.
		
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They'd have to limit the number of LIV tournaments players could play, otherwise The PGA Tour would simply be a feeder tour to LIV.


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## Orikoru (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			They'd have to limit the number of LIV tournaments players could play, otherwise The PGA Tour would simply be a feeder tour to LIV.
		
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LIV doesn't have that many events as it is though do they?


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## r0wly86 (Jun 27, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I do think the PGA have been a bit kneejerk and silly to ban the players who've signed up to play in the LIV. At some point they'll realise they have to make an embarrassing climbdown and allow players to flit between the tours (as they have done between PGA and the European). Otherwise their events are just going to look weaker and weaker the longer this goes on. Just looks like throwing their toys out of the pram at the moment.
		
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They are trying to kill the LIV tour off, I can't see the LIV tour making money if the players do not get ranking points/compete and win majors as the cache of their names will dwindle as new players on the PGA start to take the limelight. I know the Saudi's have deep pockets but not sure they will be happy to keep throwing money at the LIV tour for too long. So if the PGA can outlast the LIV then they will emerge much stronger


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			LIV doesn't have that many events as it is though do they?
		
Click to expand...


Planning plenty more though!


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## Reemul (Jun 27, 2022)

It reminds me a bit of the Darts. One means everything and the other sod all.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 27, 2022)

The one that means everything was created to increase prize money for the top players.  And all the players who joined it were banned by the other organisation, the one which now means sod all...

Only time will tell whether history repeats itself.


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## IainP (Jun 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Legacy in golf is measured by major wins. Thats why there is still a debate on Tiger v Jack is it not?

This got me thinking about Tommy Fleetwood.

Real talk - he's never quite cut the mustard on the PGA tour and has not had any tour wins.

He plays golf at this stage probably for enjoyment and for the money, it is after all his job, but also hoping to win a major. He has had a bit more success in those, finishing second twice.

If someone offers you 50 million, straight into your bank account, to play golf elsewhere (with the chance to add plenty more to it) and promise to fight the legal battle so that you can still play majors - you'd go for it right?

Be really interested to see if he does go one day!
		
Click to expand...

Feel that the 'PGA Tour win' measure can be a little misleading. There are a number of lower key events on tour but typically those with Euro wins like Fleetwood & Fitzpatrick are picking the stronger field events to play in. Could maybe add Zalatoris also as a decent player without.


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## IainP (Jun 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			They are trying to kill the LIV tour off, I can't see the LIV tour making money if the players do not get ranking points/compete and win majors as the cache of their names will dwindle as new players on the PGA start to take the limelight. I know the Saudi's have deep pockets but not sure they will be happy to keep throwing money at the LIV tour for too long. So if the PGA can outlast the LIV then they will emerge much stronger
		
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As the PGA Tour had outlined the punishments ahead, they did really have to go through with them or lose face. You may be right, although potentially tricky with the apparent funds.
Lots to play out yet I suspect, and some unknowns.
I did note that Oosthuizen & Larrazabal climbed in the rankings at the weekend 😯


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 27, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Accepted that Tiger is the biggest name in golf, possibly ever and certainly in the last 40 years…

So…they got Phil…You’re accepting he’s No. 2 to US fans then!? Hardly a complete has-been..😂

Mickelson won a major last year. And he almost won the 2016 Open.

How’s Rory fared in the last 8 years in Majors?
		
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From 2014

Rory

Masters = 7 top 10s (one 2nd place) 
US Open = 4 top 10s
The Open = 1 win, 3 top 10s. (one 2nd place) 
USPGA = 1 win, 2 top 10s.

For parity Mickelson has won 1 and had 3 second places. Missed 10 cuts.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			[
Are you aware that Liverpool Phil had already quoted the recognisable names at the top of the leaderboard (and I did quote his post when I replied to make that fairly obvious), and I was countering that with relative unknowns who were up there.
...
		
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As it was in the post I quoted, of course I was. But it at least it actually showed the leaders, whereas yours didn't, but still simply called it 'leaderboard'!


Mel Smooth said:



			...
The Travelers may not be an event where the top players dominate, but a quick look at the final standings from last year show that Ancer finished 4th, 2 shots off the lead at 1 under and Koepka was T5 at 10 under. Surely that backs up the point that I'm making about the PGA tour being weakened by the banning of LIV players?
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's 'weakened' by the loss of 'top' players. But by no means seriously wounded. It also provides more opportunity for up and coming players so the loss is mitigated.

Both players were around 20th when they left for LIV, but Keopka was 4th after Travellers '21 and Ancer was 20th. So 1 fading player and a relatively ho-hum one.

I admire your hopeful, speculative position, but that 2021 Travellers simply confirms (and was part of) my assertion that the leaderboard has more than the usual number of 'lower level' players at the top. Keopka was probably the highest ranked player in it.

FWIW, Rory's disasters apart, I really enjoyed this year's one. Some very interesting holes on what seems a 'distinctly different' course with treacherous greens.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

Not that it was really a secret but Wolff, Ortiz and Chacarra are confirmed to fill the remaining 3 places for Portland.

https://www.livgolf.com/news/rising-star-matthew-wolff-world-no-2-amateur-eugenio-chacarra-and


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## Ethan (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not that it was really a secret but Wolff, Ortiz and Chacarra are confirmed to fill the remaining 3 places for Portland.

https://www.livgolf.com/news/rising-star-matthew-wolff-world-no-2-amateur-eugenio-chacarra-and

Click to expand...

Rising start Matthew Wolff?. Is rising the right word for Wolff's direction of travel in the OWGR? End of 2021: 30th, now: 77th

Ortiz has fallen even further. End of 2021: 56th, now: 119th.

Looks like both are on the Rickie Fowler Express.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not that it was really a secret but Wolff, Ortiz and Chacarra are confirmed to fill the remaining 3 places for Portland.

https://www.livgolf.com/news/rising-star-matthew-wolff-world-no-2-amateur-eugenio-chacarra-and

Click to expand...

The obvious reply would be 'Who?'. Or even 'Who cares?'!
Chacarra might have potential, but with OWGRs of 77 and 119 resp, Wolff and Ortiz continue the trend of LIV being a 'tour' for pension-funding has-beens/never weres!
Interesting that neither Pros were on your list of 'what abouts' at Travellers as there was certainly at least 1 player on that list above Wolff. And most (maybe even all?) were above Ortiz who MC-ed!
Advance knowledge perhaps?  Surely not!


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## Backsticks (Jun 27, 2022)

I am sure those three are only placeholders. A decent pay day, but ready to make way for the serious players the Saudis must still aspire to attracting.
There are still a good number of non names still there to jettison though.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am sure those three are only placeholders. A decent pay day, but ready to make way for the serious players the Saudis must still aspire to attracting.
There are still a good number of non names still there to jettison though.
		
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Where do they go then (the ex PGA Tour ones)? Simply retire? The PGA Tour is unlikely to allow them back - certainly not immediately. Chacarra is likely to be a keeper.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am sure those three are only placeholders. A decent pay day, but ready to make way for the serious players the Saudis must still aspire to attracting.
There are still a good number of non names still there to jettison though.
		
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They are building the foundations of global support, a young Spaniard that used to practice with Seve, a Mexican... Of course they're not going to challenge for wins, but they do provide interest for golf fans in those parts of the world.

They pretty much emphasize that point in the press release....

_The Portland field will showcase nine of the last 21 major winners, four former world No. 1 players and nearly half of its competitors currently ranked in the top 100. The global field represents 12 different countries and a combined 20 major titles, as well as future stars of the game who earned NCAA National Championships, US Amateur Championships and professional tour wins among their accomplishments._

_The LIV Golf Invitational Portland offers opportunities for golfers from around the world including the Asian Tour, DP World Tour, PGA Tour, Sunshine Tour, PGA Tour of Australasia and Japan Golf Tour, as well as leading players from The International Series, which launched in Thailand in March, and top finishers from the LIV Golf Invitational Series. LIV Golf will continue to reward players that compete and perform well in LIV events, with a broad spectrum of exemption categories designed to ensure it delivers new opportunities for international golfers, as well as pathways for amateurs and the next generation of leading players, into elite professional golf.  _


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## Backsticks (Jun 27, 2022)

Very much make do post hoc spin there. If they could have gotten their hands on the worlds top 50 golfers, there would be ni showcasing upcoming talent, or majors benchmarking.
Its part of what is so manufactured and showbiz, like the teams names, about this whole thing. These Saudis just seem terrible at it.


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## Backsticks (Jun 27, 2022)

Fowler, Watson, Kocrak fall through ?


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## Backsticks (Jun 27, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Is Mel on the LIV payroll or something?
		
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I think one can only be in favour of this thing if you are, yes, on the LIV payroll, an internet troll, or simply a contrarian with an axe to grind against the establishment. Any establishment.

It is simply impossible to otherwise claim that the Saudi golf war has anything positive to contribute to the golfing world.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They are building the foundations of global support, a young Spaniard that used to practice with Seve,...
		
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 Where are you getting that info? A LIV internal memo?  He certainly seems to be star bound though! He can't have done much practice with Seve though, as Seve died in 2009 and was pretty much confined for a year or more before that. Chaccara... was born in 2000.
Keita Nakajima (#1 Am) must be something really special with a 300 more point average!


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Fowler, Watson, Kocrak fall through ?
		
Click to expand...

Seems Fowler deal is not 'over the line' yet; Watson still injured and who knows what with Kocrak! Mel obviously isn't in that loop particular loop yet.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Where are you getting that info? A LIV internal memo?  He certainly seems to be star bound though! He can't have done much practice with Seve though, as Seve died in 2009 and was pretty much confined for a year or more before that. Chaccara... was born in 2000.
Keita Nakajima (#1 Am) must be something really special with a 300 more point average!
		
Click to expand...

Do you want me to translate it for you as well Foxtroller? ;-)

https://www.marca.com/golf/2020/06/06/5eda8af946163fd2a08b46a4.html

Eugenio, al que entrena Antonio Barquero, *guarda un gran recuerdo de Severiano Ballesteros* y cómo éste le influyó. Su familia paterna es de Santander, y López-Chacarra suele pasar un mes de verano en Pedreña. "Seve me ha dejado entrar en su sala de trofeos y coger la jarra de clarete, ver las chaquetas verdes e incluso jugar con él los pares 3 de Pedreña. *Me decía: 'Todo lo que trabajes nunca es mucho, siempre puedes hacer más'.* Y tiene razón porque en el golf se hace cierto eso de, 'cuanto más entreno más suerte tengo'. Yo tiro mucho de aquella enseñanza", dice el madrileño, que no atiende a distracciones: *"Hay a quien le gusta ir a la discoteca y a mí gusta ir al campo de golf. Estos días puedo pasar 10 horas"*.


_López-Chacarra usually spends a summer month in Pedreña. "Seve has let me enter his trophy room and pick up the jar of claret, see the green jackets and even play the Pedreña par 3s with him._


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## Backsticks (Jun 27, 2022)

Well done to the Saudis for roping in Ortiz and Chacarra at short notice. Who did they discard from the last exhibition tournament ?


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## BrianM (Jun 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think one can only be in favour of this thing if you are, yes, on the LIV payroll, an internet troll, or simply a contrarian with an axe to grind against the establishment. Any establishment.

It is simply impossible to otherwise claim that the Saudi golf war has anything positive to contribute to the golfing world.
		
Click to expand...

If you had brains you'd be dangerous.


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## BrianM (Jun 27, 2022)

In my opinion we need the tours to come together and sort something out, these CEO's of all the tours are getting paid to make tough decisions, at the moment it doesn't look like they know what to do.
In my experience also, I've worked worked for the biggest drilling company in the world and they literally just buy out competitors like they aren't even there, I'm not saying this will ever be the case here but money talks in all forms of life, it's easy to take the moral high ground from your sofa, each and every one of these golfers will have their own reasons for joining LIV, whether we agree with them or not, is it right for us to judge them from watching them on TV? Without knowing their personal circumstances?
We all want to see the best players playing week in week out and right now until the tours come together, put their EGO's aside and come up with a solution, we won't (Majors excluded).
I'm not for or against LIV, personally, I enjoy watching the best players battle it out.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...

https://www.marca.com/golf/2020/06/06/5eda8af946163fd2a08b46a4.html

_López-Chacarra usually spends a summer month in Pedreña. "Seve has let me enter his trophy room and pick up the jar of claret, see the green jackets and even play the Pedreña par 3s with him._

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reference.
Doesn't invalidate my post though!


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

BrianM said:



			In my opinion we need the tours to come together and sort something out, these CEO's of all the tours are getting paid to make tough decisions, at the moment it doesn't look like they know what to do.
In my experience also, I've worked worked for the biggest drilling company in the world and they literally just buy out competitors like they aren't even there, I'm not saying this will ever be the case here but money talks in all forms of life, it's easy to take the moral high ground from your sofa, each and every one of these golfers will have their own reasons for joining LIV, whether we agree with them or not, is it right for us to judge them from watching them on TV? Without knowing their personal circumstances?
We all want to see the best players playing week in week out and right now until the tours come together, put their EGO's aside and come up with a solution, we won't (Majors excluded).
I'm not for or against LIV, personally, I enjoy watching the best players battle it out.
		
Click to expand...

Not going to happen this year and unlikely next year either. The dropping of OWGR results (rating is average of points/tournament last 2 years) will start to really bite for some then (particularly aging players, such as DJ, whose best results were over a year ago and already seems to have been affected - down from 3 at end of 2021 to 16 now). So existing tours will acquire a 'weapon'. LIV participation announcements will subside and with only a limited number of events, public interest will reduce. Norman will really have to get creative to maintain awareness, but that's what PR folk are, supposedly, great at!


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## BrianM (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not going to happen this year and unlikely next year either. The dropping of OWGR results (rating is average of points/tournament last 2 years) will start to really bite for some then (particularly aging players, such as DJ, whose best results were over a year ago and already seems to have been affected - down from 3 at end of 2021 to 16 now). So existing tours will acquire a 'weapon'. LIV participation announcements will subside and with only a limited number of events, public interest will reduce. Norman will really have to get creative to maintain awareness, but that's what PR folk are, supposedly, great at!
		
Click to expand...

They have to keep it interesting for sure, I just think there is a chance to do something here to enhance the game of golf from the grass roots up world wide, maybe some young Arabic, African players get the bug and could work their way up to eventually play in big tournaments/ Majors, I know it’s highly unlikely to happen but there might just be an opportunity to get something positive out of all this instead of the amount of negativity.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

BrianM said:



			They have to keep it interesting for sure, I just think there is a chance to do something here to enhance the game of golf from the grass roots up world wide, maybe some young Arabic, African players get the bug and could work their way up to eventually play in big tournaments/ Majors, I know it’s highly unlikely to happen but there might just be an opportunity to get something positive out of all this instead of the amount of negativity.
		
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Nice goal; highly unlikely to get anywhere near success imo. There have been opportunities to do something along those lines in Africa for many years, but nothing has come anywhere near fruition.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Just opened this doc from one of the GolfWRX emails...Apparently not all rosy in Pumpkin Ridge/Portland. 
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...rst-stop-us-many-local-officials-oppose-event


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The obvious reply would be 'Who?'. Or even 'Who cares?'!
Chacarra might have potential, but with OWGRs of 77 and 119 resp, Wolff and Ortiz continue the trend of LIV being a 'tour' for pension-funding has-beens/never weres!
Interesting that neither Pros were on your list of 'what abouts' at Travellers as there was certainly at least 1 player on that list above Wolff. And most (maybe even all?) were above Ortiz who MC-ed!
Advance knowledge perhaps?  Surely not! 

Click to expand...

Who cares ?

YOU must because you are on here posting everyday multiple times.


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think one can only be in favour of this thing if you are, yes, on the LIV payroll, an internet troll, or simply a contrarian with an axe to grind against the establishment. Any establishment.

It is simply impossible to otherwise claim that the Saudi golf war has anything positive to contribute to the golfing world.
		
Click to expand...

I am in favor of anything new that will bring Pro golf to the rest of the world, as the US is not the World even though they think they are.


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## Backsticks (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I am in favor of anything new that will bring Pro golf to the rest of the world, as the US is not the World even though they think they are.
		
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The rest of the world already has pro golf tournaments as such. Do you mean more tourneys involving a majority of the worlds best 50 ? If so, why is that a good thing ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not going to happen this year and unlikely next year either. *The dropping of OWGR results (rating is average of points/tournament last 2 years) will start to really bite for some* then (particularly aging players, such as DJ, whose best results were over a year ago and already seems to have been affected - down from 3 at end of 2021 to 16 now). So existing tours will acquire a 'weapon'. LIV participation announcements will subside and with only a limited number of events, public interest will reduce. Norman will really have to get creative to maintain awareness, but that's what PR folk are, supposedly, great at!
		
Click to expand...


Pretty sure nearly all the players in LIV would still like to compete in The Majors where possible. The only events they are unable to play in are PGA Tour / co sanctioned events -that's all we know as fact right now.

So, best case scenario for these players is that the DP world tour accept them into their own events - nothing the PGA Tour can do about that other than ask the DPWT to help them - and no doubt deals are being discussed to try and make that happen, but the truth is, it's not in the best interests of the DPWT to ban an increasingly strong field that have switched to LIV

Worst case scenario, all the tours ban them except the Asian Tour, so the players go and play on the Asian Tour - their current OWGR rankings will help to increase the tournament rankings and in turn allow them to collect more points.

Not one player is in a situation where it's impossible for them to earn OWGR points.


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## Backsticks (Jun 28, 2022)

But not enough points. They will all drop like stones in the rankings even if playing Asian tour and getting points from it.

Allowing Saudi tour players into the DP would be the end of the PGA Tour as we know it. Convincing DP to ban them is the real existential point for the PGAT. If they are were let play, then the flood gates will open, and the PGAT will be left with only Tiger. Even Rory would be forgiven for turning 180 at that stage. A united, revamped PGAT+WPWT must be what both are working on behind the scenes. Not banning Saudis is also the DPs trump card, so they will not come out on that until they have a deal with the PGAT done, as it is their leverage.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



*But not enough points. They will all drop like stones in the rankings even if playing Asian tour and getting points from it.*

Allowing Saudi tour players into the DP would be the end of the PGA Tour as we know it. Convincing DP to ban them is the real existential point for the PGAT. If they are were let play, then the flood gates will open, and the PGAT will be left with only Tiger. Even Rory would be forgiven for turning 180 at that stage. A united, revamped PGAT+WPWT must be what both are working on behind the scenes. Not banning Saudis is also the DPs trump card, so they will not come out on that until they have a deal with the PGAT done, as it is their leverage.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they will if they are succesful, and their current points rankings add to the tournament rankings on the Asian Tour.

If you are telling me OWGR points are worthless on tours outside of the PGA and DPWT, then they are not fit for purpose, are they? The tournaments are worth _less_ in term of OWGR points, but they still should, and will result in golfers who are playing well being given the opportunities to play in bigger events.

Don't forget, the DPWT already has a strong involvement in the arabian states around Saudi, there will be a lot of very wealthy people trying to build the game in that part of the world. The idea that the DPWT is going to distance itself from the region is a little shortsighted I think.


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## Backsticks (Jun 28, 2022)

DP is certainly not going to distance itself from the middle East. Just the Saudi tour.

Yes. Owgr points will be minimal unless more jump from the PGA. Names from the past, will not bring field quality, and so points available will be a downward spiral, as those on the DP and PGA increase as a result. It will open quite a gulf. And LIV/Asian players will plummet.
But I would guess the PGA is negotiating a close off of that route as well. They will try everything to ensure the Saudi tour is a closed bubble of meaninglessness.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			DP is certainly not going to distance itself from the middle East. Just the Saudi tour.

Yes. Owgr points will be minimal unless more jump from the PGA. Names from the past, will not bring field quality, and so points available will be a downward spiral, as those on the DP and PGA increase as a result. It will open quite a gulf. And LIV/Asian players will plummet.
But I would guess the PGA is negotiating a close off of that route as well. They will try everything to ensure the Saudi tour is a closed bubble of meaninglessness.
		
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Sorry, that won't happen. The PGA Tour is a single entity in World Golf, they've managed to obtain status as number 1 through big purses, but they do not control world golf. Monahon can't just dictate to The Majors, and all the other tours what he wants to happen for the benefit of his own organisation.


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## Backsticks (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Sorry, that won't happen. The PGA Tour is a single entity in World Golf, they've managed to obtain status as number 1 through big purses, but they do not control world golf. Monahon can't just dictate to The Majors, and all the other tours what he wants to happen for the benefit of his own organisation.
		
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I didnt say he would. Where is that line cming from ?

The majors will do their own thing. Monahon can dictate to nobody. But he can, and its his job, to do strategic business deals with other tours if it is in the interest of the PGA Tour. And kettling the Saudis into a non event sideshow is how he can contain them.


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## IainP (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			DP is certainly not going to distance itself from the middle East. Just the Saudi tour.

Yes. Owgr points will be minimal unless more jump from the PGA. Names from the past, will not bring field quality, and so points available will be a downward spiral, as those on the DP and PGA increase as a result. It will open quite a gulf. And LIV/Asian players will plummet.
But I would guess the PGA is negotiating a close off of that route as well. They will try everything to ensure the Saudi tour is a closed bubble of meaninglessness.
		
Click to expand...

I really wouldn't be surprised to see some 'unofficial' rankings popping up soon. Either from a nerdy youtuber, or perhaps 'encouraged' by liv. The current process is reasonably well documented so wouldn't be that hard (although apparently changing later this year). Expect the media would lap a rival set of rankings as they love that sort of thing.


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## Backsticks (Jun 28, 2022)

Such will not be possible if the two camps only meet 4 times a year. It can only be two rankings then, and so there isnt a definable 'best'. At the moment the OWGR wins hands down. Only if half or so of the current world top 30 jumping to Saudi Tour would give that currency. But only in the short term. Once things settle, we would have two world ranks. Which means no world rankings.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I didnt say he would. Where is that line cming from ?

The majors will do their own thing. Monahon can dictate to nobody. But he can, and its his job, to do strategic business deals with other tours if it is in the interest of the PGA Tour. And kettling the Saudis into a non event sideshow is how he can contain them.
		
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You're forgetting one significant factor, he doesn't have the finances to compete with the Saudis, what is he going to use to convince the tours and the majors to vote with him - if you run a tour, or a major, then you want as many big names in the field as possible - hence the reason everybody goes nuts when Tiger rocks up somehwere, even though he's not likely to win anything.

The John Deere classic this weekend, with all due respect, will not compete with Portland either on player ability, or player notability - it's a huge weekend for American golf fans, with the PGA event taking a definite 3rd place behind the Irish Open and The LIV series, and there's a strong possibilty that LIV will win a considerable number of people over - given the viewing times and the accesibility on You Tube.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 28, 2022)

😁


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541638016841695232


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You're forgetting one significant factor, he doesn't have the finances to compete with the Saudis, what is he going to use to convince the tours and the majors to vote with him - if you run a tour, or a major, then you want as many big names in the field as possible - hence the reason everybody goes nuts when Tiger rocks up somehwere, even though he's not likely to win anything.

The John Deere classic this weekend, with all due respect, will not compete with Portland either on player ability, or player notability - it's a huge weekend for American golf fans, with the PGA event taking a definite 3rd place behind the Irish Open and The LIV series, and there's a strong possibilty that LIV will win a considerable number of people over - given the viewing times and the accesibility on You Tube.
		
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Do you really think the Saudi Tour can pay its way into the majors ?

They will not be swayed by any blood money at all - their entry process will be the same as it always is - previous winners , world ranking points or via qualifying process 

If the likes of DJ or BDC don’t make a major they won’t do anything and the major will go ahead without any issues 

what exactly do you think they will do any differently to win over people this weekend ? Do you really think the people in the US are feeling any differently about it all ? These people will watch the event on the Golf Channel or CBS and that will be the John Deere during the prime time viewing. 

The locals don’t even want the event


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you really think the Saudi Tour can pay its way into the majors ?

They will not be swayed by any blood money at all - their entry process will be the same as it always is - previous winners , world ranking points or via qualifying process 

If the likes of DJ or BDC don’t make a major they won’t do anything and the major will go ahead without any issues 

what exactly do you think they will do any differently to win over people this weekend ? Do you really think the people in the US are feeling any differently about it all ? These people will watch the event on the Golf Channel or CBS and that will be the John Deere during the prime time viewing. 

The locals don’t even want the event
		
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Your local to Centurion and you didn't want the event either, so what? It was still popular to those that went, and those that watched further afield.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 28, 2022)

How much will the 54 be giving to local charities this week? 

The JD Classic might not have the strongest field of the season, but it generates one of the highest amounts of money for local charities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Your local to Centurion and you didn't want the event either, so what? It was still popular to those that went, and those that watched further afield.
		
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Fair play to you - you are very much concrete down in the ground and there is no give 

You have this completely fantasy land about Saudi Tour being the saviour of golf without looking at the real world 

There will always be golfers and clubs that will take blood money because greed will always override everything else for some 

But it’s going to be an exhibition tour for players on the downward spiral and a platform for people to make a quick load of money. It’s not going to take the place of the PGA tour or the ET and there will always be the four events that will trump it all -well 5 if you include the Ryder Cup


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The rest of the world already has pro golf tournaments as such. Do you mean more tourneys involving a majority of the worlds best 50 ? If so, why is that a good thing ?
		
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Yes top 100 players playing outside of the US


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## woofers (Jun 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Well done to the Saudis for roping in Ortiz and Chacarra at short notice. Who did they discard from the last exhibition tournament ?
		
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Oliver Bekker, Kevin Yaun, Pablo Larrazabel, JC Ritchie, Viraj Madappa, David Puig, Oliver Fisher, Andy Ogletree and Ratchanon Chantananuwat.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 28, 2022)

Seems the argument is disintegrating in here as everyone gets entrenched.

As i see it, currently coming up to the 2nd event.

LIV have a strong field, arguably as strong as a bog standard pga even.  No where near as strong as a premier event.  But probably strong enough to deserve OWGR points.  The format is different, as is the coverage, but I dont think so different as to be notable to normal golf fans.  Its not 20-20 vs test cricket.  There's infact probably as much difference in style between a euro tour event and a pga event, as there is between pga tour and LIV.

PGA have entrenched their position.  Seem to have garned the support of most the best players and those in their prime.  Theyve run an incredibly effective smear campaign and continue to do so.  Their position with the majors, owgr, the players support and the supporting structure of minor tours makes them, by far, the premier golf tour.

The long term position is very unclear to me.  It depends hugely on the position of the Majors, the owgr, and the continued funding of premier players.  It also depends on the intensity of conflict between the tours.  

I think that currently, its impossible for LIV to become the premier route for talented golfers.  And Im not really sure i understand what they hope to achieve as a longterm proposition without the support of the pga.

As for the country with inequality for women, firearms on every corner, corrupt leadership, religions zealots in positions of power and regular persistent use of the death penalty.   Well, lets not make this political...


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## woofers (Jun 28, 2022)

The Times today:
A European-based golfer is appealing against his £100,000 fine and suspension from the DP World Tour as the game’s bitter power struggle continues.

The player, who appeared in the inaugural Saudi-backed LIV Golf event at Centurion Club last month, is prepared to take his case as far as it takes after receiving legal advice. So far Ian Poulter is the only player to come out publicly and say that he planned an appeal after being banned by the US-based PGA Tour.

The news comes as more LIV Golf players are set to resign from the DP World Tour, formerly the European Tour. That was the route taken by 10 of the 17 players banned by the PGA Tour after their appearance in the UK opener.


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 28, 2022)

They'd have to get less points re OWGR as LIV is only playing 3 rounds and there's no cut.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Yes top 100 players playing outside of the US
		
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I don't think the LIV is the way forward to get this though.

I would hope that the Euro and Asian Tours have managed to get something out of the PGA, as if they decide to let LIV player in that really scuppers the PGA's tactics.

They should be trying to get something out of following the PGA be that tournaments in their own tours that attract loads of ranking points or something bigger like moving one of the majors to a world venue


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pretty sure nearly all the players in LIV would still like to compete in The Majors where possible. The only events they are unable to play in are PGA Tour / co sanctioned events -that's all we know as fact right now.

So, best case scenario for these players is that the DP world tour accept them into their own events - nothing the PGA Tour can do about that other than ask the DPWT to help them - and no doubt deals are being discussed to try and make that happen, but the truth is, it's not in the best interests of the DPWT to ban an increasingly strong field that have switched to LIV

Worst case scenario, all the tours ban them except the Asian Tour, so the players go and play on the Asian Tour - their current OWGR rankings will help to increase the tournament rankings and in turn allow them to collect more points.

Not one player is in a situation where it's impossible for them to earn OWGR points.
		
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Dream on!
DP World Tour WILL ban them - in spite of their link with UAE. Their association with The PGA Tour is much stronger.
What makes you think The Asian Tour will allow them? 
Even if they do, it also makes little/no sense for LIV players to participate, as it will simply actually dilute their points, therefore accelerate their rating decline. That's because of the way the OWGR points allocation works - even with the Strokes Gained,  Strength of Field factored and other variables factored in!


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I don't think the LIV is the way forward to get this though.

I would hope that the Euro and Asian Tours have managed to get something out of the PGA, as if they decide to let LIV player in that really scuppers the PGA's tactics.

They should be trying to get something out of following the PGA be that tournaments in their own tours that attract loads of ranking points or something bigger like moving one of the majors to a world venue
		
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The PGA moving a major out of US, more chance of seeing those pigs flying by.

If the PGA now supports the Asian tour because of this, what happens in a few years time when and if LIV folds, would they continue to support them, I don't think so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The PGA moving a major out of US, more chance of seeing those pigs flying by.

If the PGA now supports the Asian tour because of this, what happens in a few years time when and if LIV folds, would they continue to support them, I don't think so.
		
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It’s not up to the PGA where the majors go apart from the US PGA ?

The PGA Tour doesn’t govern any major 

So which major do you think should move ?


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
The John Deere classic this weekend, with all due respect, will not compete with Portland either on player ability, or player notability - it's a huge weekend for American golf fans, with the PGA event taking a definite 3rd place behind the Irish Open and The LIV series, and there's a strong possibilty that LIV will win a considerable number of people over - given the viewing times and the accesibility on You Tube.
		
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John Deere Classic is indeed one of the minor PGA Tour events. Probably why LIV chose the date for Portland! But I expect actual interest to be only slightly more, than at Centurion - US v UK time differences factored in. After all, the same (You Tube) access was available there. Until LIV gets the tournament on REAL TV, it'll continue to be restricted to we 'nerdy' viewers, however much LIV and their devotees push it!
You are right to rate The Irish Open though...Apparently _potential_ worldwide TV audience approaching 350m on 30 global channels according to the 2021 blurb. That compare to the 800k streamings (I believe I contributed 4 or 5 of that number) who actually watched Centurion round 3, of whom 5k bothered to 'like' it.


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not up to the PGA where the majors go apart from the US PGA ?

The PGA Tour doesn’t govern any major

So which major do you think should move ?
		
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Would love to see the Masters move, that will never happen, same place every year with a limited field is not my cup of tea, but I know many love it, plus it is not he oldest, so it would have to be the PGA which again will not happen, when has the PGA ever helped anyone but themselves.


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			John Deere Classic is indeed one of the minor PGA Tour events. Probably why LIV chose the date for Portland! But I expect actual interest to be only slightly more, than at Centurion - US v UK time differences factored in. After all, the same (You Tube) access was available there. Until LIV gets the tournament on REAL TV, it'll continue to be restricted to we 'nerdy' viewers, however much LIV and their devotees push it!
		
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Have read a lot of good reviews by US golfers about the last event, specially the lack of ads, even they are fed up with them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Would love to see the Masters move, that will never happen, same place every year with a limited field is not my cup of tea, but I know many love it, plus it is not he oldest, so it would have to be the PGA which again will not happen, when has the PGA ever helped anyone but themselves.
		
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Are you new to golf 🤷‍♂️

The USPGA is run by the PGA not the PGA Tour 

The US Open is run by the USGA

The Open is run by the R&A

The Masters is run by the Masters Committee 

The flagship event of the PGA tour is the Players 

I


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Would love to see the Masters move, that will never happen, same place every year with a limited field is not my cup of tea, but I know many love it, plus it is not he oldest, so it would have to be the PGA which again will not happen, when has the PGA ever helped anyone but themselves.
		
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That was my point the DP and Asian Tours could force the PGA's hand. The PGA tactic against LIV is to restrict any golfers to solely playing on the LIV tour, not getting ranking points and in the future therefore not qualifying for majors. This can only work if all the other tours agree not to allow LIV tour players onto their respective tours.

They now have quite a bit of leverage over the PGA as they could completely mess up their fight against LIV. Moving a major was just a throw away comment, agreed unlikely to happen but the other tours could argue that the PGA major is played on courses around the world, I agree the PGA won't do it to help, but they may do it given the leverage the smaller tours have over LIV players.

Similarly they could get the PGA to agree to various events on their tours getting substantially more ranking points therefore attracting a better field.

It may not happen of course, but it seems this is the only chance the smaller tours have of getting something from the PGA.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you new to golf 🤷‍♂️

The USPGA is run by the PGA not the PGA Tour

The US Open is run by the USGA

The Open is run by the R&A

The Masters is run by the Masters Committee

The flagship event of the PGA tour is the Players

I
		
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Of course it is, brain fart time


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## IainP (Jun 28, 2022)

Just sharing some info (partly courtesy of golf news net).

Irish Open
Purse 6 million $
6 players in top 50 rankings 
Owgr strength of field 126
Owgr projected 1st place  28 points 

John Deere 
Purse 7.1 million $
0 players in top 50 rankings
Owgr strength of field 54
Owgr projected 1st place 24 points

As mentioned this date was likely chosen for a reason,  for liv in US.
Portland 
8 players in top 50 rankings 

Is likely to pressure the conversation about rankings (obviously more to it than top 50 players,  size of field etc.).
Wonder if the gambling industry may become involved in the rankings debate. Noticed that Portland is available to bet on.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Have read a lot of good reviews by US golfers about the last event, specially *the lack of ads*, even they are fed up with them.
		
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Indeed. Best attribute imo!


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Again, I am staying away from the funding source question and keeping it to the golf side of things. Really not sure that there is a massive difference between either side and it is almost one of those situations where you wish both sides could lose. LIV are using the only weapon that they have (money) to have a shot at being the pre-emminent golfing tour with the existing tours being feeder tours and the source of the players that they offer the big money to. The PGA is using every weapon it has (ranking points and access to the majors) to be the pre-emminent golfing tour with all other tours being feeder tours and ensuring that all of the top golfers play in their event. They are also using money as part of their arsenal to ensure that the top players do not stick around and help grow other world tours. 

They are both doing all that they can to achieve global golfing domination whereas as what we need it tours working together (not in the subjogated way that tours outside of the PGA tour appear to be treasted now) to ensure that the best golfers are playing all around the world to help grow the game.


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## AussieKB (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you new to golf 🤷‍♂️

The USPGA is run by the PGA not the PGA Tour

The US Open is run by the USGA

The Open is run by the R&A

The Masters is run by the Masters Committee

The flagship event of the PGA tour is the Players

I
		
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Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.
		
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why last 21?

also irrelevant, the thing that matters is the future


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.
		
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Those majors 

4 won by Koepka 
2 won by DJ 
1 each for Phil Mickleson, Patrick Reed and BDC

The golf tours evolved when the the Telly money came into it and unfortunately events in Australia etc are not on during prime time for either Europe or the US


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## Depreston (Jun 28, 2022)

Is this on this week?


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.
		
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I think it is 9 won in 22, assuming Patrick Reed has confirmed he is going to LIV? Or 10 in 24 (if DJ's win at the US Open in 2016 is counted).

Which were:

Dustin Johnson (World Number 17)
Brooks Koepka x4 (World Number 19)
Bryson DeChambeau (World Number 31)
Patrick Reed (World Number 39)
Sergio Garcia (World Number 63)
Phil Micklelson (World Number 84)

I still think only the top 3 of those players are truly major signings for LIV as it stands, as players who could still truly be thought of as contenders in the biggest golf tournaments going forward, one they get their form and fitness back. The other three are either past it, or in Reed's case, potentially another Hunter Mahan / Jason Dufner type player in decline? And, of those top 3, I think DJ is fairly happy making loads of money now, and just chilling out for the rest of his career. Brooks has all the personality of a pair of beige corduroys. Bryson may be the only personality of those 3, that will generate headlines, and even get haters voicing their opinions on him, which is also good publicity.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Again, I am staying away from the funding source question and keeping it to the golf side of things. Really not sure that there is a massive difference between either side and it is almost one of those situations where you wish both sides could lose. LIV are using the only weapon that they have (money) to have a shot at being the pre-emminent golfing tour with the existing tours being feeder tours and the source of the players that they offer the big money to. The PGA is using every weapon it has (ranking points and access to the majors) to be the pre-emminent golfing tour with all other tours being feeder tours and ensuring that all of the top golfers play in their event. They are also using money as part of their arsenal to ensure that the top players do not stick around and help grow other world tours.

They are both doing all that they can to achieve global golfing domination whereas as what we need it tours working together (not in the subjogated way that tours outside of the PGA tour appear to be treasted now) to ensure that the best golfers are playing all around the world to help grow the game.
		
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I don't believe ANY tour is hoping to achieve 'global golfing domination' - not even LIV or The PGA Tour! They are simply , and naturally, determined to maintain and, hopefully, grow their separate Tours however they can. Simply by numbers, The PGA Tour will continue to be the dominant tour imo. LIV will continue to grow/evolve, at least for a while, though it might  (doubtful imo, but there _is_ history) eventually be deemed another 'bad investment' and fold.


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe ANY tour is hoping to achieve 'global golfing domination' - not even LIV or The PGA Tour! They are simply , and naturally, determined to maintain and, hopefully, grow their separate Tours however they can. Simply by numbers, The PGA Tour will continue to be the dominant tour imo. LIV will continue to grow/evolve, at least for a while, though it might  (doubtful imo, but there _is_ history) eventually be deemed another 'bad investment' and fold.
		
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I guess that brings about the argument that if you are not looking to see of any competition, why can there not be peaceful coexistence. Why does it have to be all or nothing. Again, may be wrong but I do see this as not just the PGA maintaining its status but also looking to ensure that there is no significant competition and I have little doubt that they would soon try and stamp on it if, for example, the DP tour or the Asia Tour received a massive funding boost and started to attract star names from the PGA Tour. Again, only my feeling, but it always seems to me that the PGA Tour is happy to atract the headline names from other tours but would be far less happy if that happened to them. Not out and out supporting LIV but also do not see the PGA to be the wounded party that they are sometimes made out to be.


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## rksquire (Jun 28, 2022)

The way things are going I'm now starting to think the PGA Tour should have come to the table and negotiated something for the weeks of the 8 tournaments or indeed come to some sort of rising scale agreement (4 tournaments rising to 8 over 3 years for example).  I see a lot of the PGA Tour commentary and tactics as being quite hypocritical (PGA Tour: Players who go are only going for the money.  We are a not for profit company so can't compete; Also PGA Tour: Exciting news, a shake-up of events with no cut and even more money for our already very well paid players).  Tongue in cheek, of course, the PGA Tour is probably the lesser of 2 evils but it is no way an exemplar organisation.

The big loser remains the DP World Tour.  The PGA Tour performed it's LIV-like coup years ago and is the only one really in a position to defend itself; LIV is a long way from being a legitimate challenger but it does hold an alternative interest to what's normally on offer along with a list of names that, had they been participating for the DPWT, would be enough to get me to tune in.  

Re: Stenson (comment from pages ago) and quandary regarding his Ryder Cup Captaincy - surely some of the LIV guys would have been part of his back room team and Vice Captains?  The more I think about it the more it is clearly self preservation.  You can have a Premier League (PGA Tour), a Championship (DPWT), a League 1 etc. (Asian Tour, Korn Ferry, Challenge etc.) along with the FA Cup / Cups (Majors) as well as a Champions League with untold riches (LIV). I'm actually worried the energies that are going into opposing the upstart is more unsettling.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I guess that brings about the argument that if you are not looking to see of any competition, why can there not be peaceful coexistence. Why does it have to be all or nothing. Again, may be wrong but I do see this as not just the PGA maintaining its status but also looking to ensure that there is no significant competition and I have little doubt that they would soon try and stamp on it if, for example, the DP tour or the Asia Tour received a massive funding boost and started to attract star names from the PGA Tour. Again, only my feeling, but it always seems to me that the PGA Tour is happy to atract the headline names from other tours but would be far less happy if that happened to them. Not out and out supporting LIV but also do not see the PGA to be the wounded party that they are sometimes made out to be.
		
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The difference with TPGAT v LIV is simply that TPGAT DOES view LIV's emergence as a 'threat' - and I agree that it is, though maybe not an existential one. It's no different, imo, to a startup company with a new product/idea v a large, existing one. The existing company has to consider whether - and how - to react, otherwise they are not fulfilling their legal obligations. If working with other - non-directly-competing - tours helps any tour, it's worth doing imo. That's an area where the tours are actually different from commercial companies!


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The difference with TPGAT v LIV is simply that TPGAT DOES view LIV's emergence as a 'threat' - and I agree that it is, though maybe not an existential one. It's no different, imo, to a startup company with a new product/idea v a large, existing one. The existing company has to consider whether - and how - to react, otherwise they are not fulfilling their legal obligations. If working with other - non-directly-competing - tours helps any tour, it's worth doing imo. That's an area where the tours are actually different from commercial companies!
		
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If you are looking at it from a company comparison, how do you view the other world tours who are long stablised businesses who lost all of their top staff members to their direct competitor who continues to grow as they diminish. Perhaps sanctions should be taken against members of other tours who move to the PGA Tour. I just get the feeling that LIV are simply doing what the PGA tour did years ago.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

rksquire said:



			...
Re: Stenson (comment from pages ago) and quandary regarding his Ryder Cup Captaincy - surely some of the LIV guys would have been part of his back room team and Vice Captains?  The more I think about it the more it is clearly self preservation.  You can have a Premier League (PGA Tour), a Championship (DPWT), a League 1 etc. (Asian Tour, Korn Ferry, Challenge etc.) along with the FA Cup / Cups (Majors) as well as a Champions League with untold riches (LIV). I'm actually worried the energies that are going into opposing the upstart is more unsettling.
		
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Notwithstanding my own rambling feelings above, your analogy does not match the Golf setup. Champions League might be analogous to the Majors, but LIV is a new interloper for which nothing in the Football setup is analogous - except maybe the US Soccer League.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams 

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money


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## BiMGuy (Jun 28, 2022)

Anyone who thinks the Saudis care one bit about golf. Or that Greg Norman isn’t just a bitter and twisted old man trying to get one over on the PGA Tour needs to give their head a wobble. 

It’s strange how many people who would generally hate the rich buying their way through life, are supporting what the Saudis are doing with 54 golf.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			If you are looking at it from a company comparison, how do you view the other world tours who are long stablised businesses who lost all of their top staff members to their direct competitor who continues to grow as they diminish. Perhaps sanctions should be taken against members of other tours who move to the PGA Tour. I just get the feeling that LIV are simply doing what the PGA tour did years ago.
		
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The 'like companies' comparison doesn't absolutely match/breaks down somewhat because of the mainly co-operative way Golf is set up. But many aspects _do_ match/have equivalence.
The PGA Tour v LIV Tour actually does have many similarities with competing company analogy as that's actually what is involved. Same applies to LIV v ET. The PGA Tour v ET relationship is more co-operative. And the same applies to PGAT v most other tours that are not actual feeder ones


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money
		
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Closer, but not 'equivalent' imo. UEFA and FIFA directly oversee football. here is no _equivalent_ in Golf, though R&A and USGA do have some similarities/equivalences in some areas.


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money
		
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But surely that analogy has already happened wiht the PGA welcoming the top players from the Euorpean Tour attacted by the prize money on offer and denying fans the chance to watch them in more local events.


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Anyone who thinks the Saudis care one bit about golf. Or that Greg Norman isn’t just a bitter and twisted old man trying to get one over on the PGA Tour needs to give their head a wobble.

It’s strange how many people who would generally hate the rich buying their way through life, are supporting what the Saudis are doing with 54 golf.
		
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Thing is I am not supporting the LIV Tour in this either but I am also not getting behind the PGA as I think that there are issues there as well hidden behind a veil of respectablity. What I want to see if golf played across the world with everyone able to see the very best peform within reasonable travelling distance with support and encouragement for the best players to play the odd tournament in more far flung nations. No, I do not think that the LIV tour is the answer or even necessarily a desireable entrant into the market but I do like the fact that someone is at least standing up to the PGA and the overly Americacentric golfing calendar.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			But surely that analogy has already happened wiht the PGA welcoming the top players from the Euorpean Tour attacted by the prize money on offer and denying fans the chance to watch them in more local events.
		
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Players don’t just go to the PGA tour for money - playing on the PGA tour gives players better chances for entry into Majors , it also gives them better chances of winning majors 

Add in the ability for year round practise etc

The PGA tour wasn’t created purely to get the best players around the world and offer them all the riches on offer 

It’s been around since 1929 ( broke away in 1969 ) 

Let’s be honest all the top Europeans over the last 3/4 decades have had playing rights on the PGA Tour and also the ET - it was prob only monty that didn’t move and that’s prob a big reason why he never got over the major line 

What the ET are doing with the PGA tour is trying to get more of the co sanction events and it’s not a surprise that it’s events before the Open


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## Slab (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Thing is I am not supporting the LIV Tour in this either but I am also not getting behind the PGA as I think that there are issues there as well hidden behind a veil of respectablity. What I want to see if golf played across the world with everyone able to see the very best peform within reasonable travelling distance with support and encouragement for the best players to play the odd tournament in more far flung nations. No, I do not think that the LIV tour is the answer or even necessarily a desireable entrant into the market but I do like the fact that someone is at least standing up to the PGA and the overly Americacentric golfing calendar.
		
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Agreed 
Things change and as it was going the pgat was just getting stronger and stronger with very little product from the ‘top table’ tour available for worldwide viewers to watch live
Televised sport has a very short shelf life compared to things like movies etc and it can be measured in just a few days. Golf has an even shorter shelf life that can be measured in hours (who’s watching re-runs of day 1 when day 3 play is underway)

Half the world has to get up/stay up at all kind of weird hours if they want to see these elite players because of the US dominance or catch the (dreadful) production of the ‘highlights’ just showing putt after putt
LIV may not be the answer (probably isn’t) especially if they are just trying to muscle in on US audiences, but if it helps force current tours to consider some changes for the global game then crack on… 

At this stage its mostly threats and posturing from both sides so it looks like it will be a while before this runs its course


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Players don’t just go to the PGA tour for money - playing on the PGA tour gives players better chances for entry into Majors , it also gives them better chances of winning majors

Add in the ability for year round practise etc

The PGA tour wasn’t created purely to get the best players around the world and offer them all the riches on offer

It’s been around since 1929 ( broke away in 1969 )

Let’s be honest all the top Europeans over the last 3/4 decades have had playing rights on the PGA Tour and also the ET - it was prob only monty that didn’t move and that’s prob a big reason why he never got over the major line

What the ET are doing with the PGA tour is trying to get more of the co sanction events and it’s not a surprise that it’s events before the Open
		
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Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week. 

Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors. 

As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are only there with their permission. 

You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week.

Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors.

As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are *only* there with their permission.

You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.
		
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The highlighted word doesn't belong imo.
Patrick Reed, not my favourite person but..., played on both TPGAT and ET. I doubt he actually asked permission.


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## Ethan (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week.

Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors.

As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are only there with their permission.

You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.
		
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The OWGR is a product of the PGA Tour, European Tour etc, and the LIV Tour has nothing to do with it. They have no right of involvement. LIV players will get OWGR points in majors or events on Tours that don't ban them. 

If they want, they can create another ranking system, and it'll be just like the boxing. The number 1 player in the world will be Scottie Scheffler. Or Charl Schwartzel, depending on your point of view.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week.
		
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Home tour ?

What is a players home tour now ?

Players like Rahm when through the college system so what is his “home” tour ?

And local fans ? There is one maybe two events in England even with the ET which now goes to - Europe , Africa, Asia etc ?

Should the South Africans ignore the ET and go to the sunshine tour ? And the same for Asians etc ?

It’s not as easy as stated

And the players go to the PGA tour because of the doors it opens for their career.

How many Europeans were winning majors prior to the likes of Seve and Co going to the PGA Tour more ?



			Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors.
		
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But it’s never as easy as that  - far from it , the events are weighted a lot of times by the players playing in it

It’s a fantasy at the end of the day - the events in the US gain the players and points because they have the bigger market share when it comes to Telly revenue , sponsership etc




			As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are only there with their permission.
		
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Co sanction means the players who are not members of the ET are able to enter the comp without having to ask for a release

And previously not many us players played in events on the ET but more and more are coming across for a number of them

The Scottish Open for example will prob be the biggest comp that week



			You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.
		
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They have never stopped players playing on ET events ,or indeed any of the other established tours


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2022)

I'm not sure if this thread is fascinating, or the exact opposite of fascinating.

I'd expect a whole bunch of new comments any time a new player signs up to LIV, or another LIV event is played. However, this thread just seems to steamroll ahead with comments, even when nothing is actually really happening. They just seem to repeat the same arguments that have been going on for weeks now on this thread.

We all know what side of the fence the most regular posters are on now. Would it not be easier to simply create a poll, stating which side you are on (or if you are split). Then, nothing else needs to be said, except when something completely new is announced on the news regarding LIV.


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## Imurg (Jun 28, 2022)

I can see golf, eventually, being similar to Rugby Union and League, Darts and Boxing...broadly the same game but separate from one another.
There will be some back and forth of players but they'll be separate entities with separate Tours with the overall effect of diluting the talent pool between them which, at the end of the day,  isn't good for Golf or the Golf fan...

And my final word on this, because if the truth be known I'm getting so bored with the whole mess, is..

If LIV are really out to grow the game then their product would be attractive enough for the best players to join without the use of obscene amounts of money..it isn't so they have to use obscene amounts of money to bribe the players to join...
To me, that just says everything about LIV and the people who join it.
I'm out.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I can see golf, eventually, being similar to Rugby Union and League, Darts and Boxing...broadly the same game but separate from one another.
There will be some back and forth of players but they'll be separate entities with separate Tours with the overall effect of diluting the talent pool between them which, at the end of the day,  isn't good for Golf or the Golf fan...

And my final word on this, because if the truth be known I'm getting so bored with the whole mess, is..

If LIV are really out to grow the game then their product would be attractive enough for the best players to join without the use of obscene amounts of money..it isn't so they have to use obscene amounts of money to bribe the players to join...
To me, that just says everything about LIV and the people who join it.
I'm out.
		
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Rugby Union and League are no where near broadly the same game. They are two completely different sports


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Rugby Union and League are no where near broadly the same game. They are two completely different sports
		
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The both started from a single origin.
They split because of disagreement wrt compensation for lost work time (which northern miners injured in games could not afford). RL has stayed true to their subsequent safety related rule changes. The Laws of Rugby extend to 176 pages, with most of the content, certainly recent changes, safety-related!
As a Kiwi, I'm a Rugby enthusiast, but was a decidedly mediocre player (at best!). I like the simplicity of RL, but it is a bit single-dimensional. I particularly like the fact that there is a place in a Rugby team for (almost) every body shape!


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The both started from a single origin.
They split because of disagreement wrt compensation for lost work time (which northern miners injured in games could not afford). RL has stayed true to their subsequent safety related rule changes. The Laws of Rugby extend to 176 pages, with most of the recent changes safety-related!
As a Kiwi, I'm a Rugby enthusiast, but was a decidedly mediocre player (at best!). I like the simplicity of RL, but it is a bit single-dimensional. I particularly like the fact that there is a place in a Rugby team for (almost) every body shape!
		
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I played for 20+ years and now coach, I am fully aware of the history, but today they have evolved into two very different games. There are still some similarities like passing the ball backwards, but it is nothing like boxing and darts having multiple governing bodies.


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## Swango1980 (Jun 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I played for 20+ years and now coach, I am fully aware of the history, but today they have evolved into two very different games. There are still some similarities like passing the ball backwards, but it is nothing like boxing and darts having multiple governing bodies.
		
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But, maybe this is the start of something in golf, where it will change into 2 very different sports in many years time  . Golf Union and Golf League. One will be the game as we know it now. Another might look very different.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I played for 20+ years and now coach, I am fully aware of the history, but today they have evolved into two very different games. There are still some similarities like passing the ball backwards, but it is nothing like boxing and darts having multiple governing bodies.
		
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Except RL hasn't needed to 'evolve'! It simply immediately made the changes it deemed necessary, whereas Rugby has spent the subsequent 125+ years having to adjust the Rules to have the same effect. I prefer watching Rugby though and have some wonderful memories of some I've attended too. I've never played, nor been to a League one!

Anyway...Back to LIV!


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			But, maybe this is the start of something in golf, where it will change into 2 very different sports in many years time  . Golf Union and Golf League. One will be the game as we know it now. Another might look very different.
		
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I very much doubt it!
The game is the same. It's only the financial arrangements that differ - for the participants.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Except RL hasn't needed to 'evolve'! It simply immediately made the changes it deemed necessary, whereas Rugby has spent the subsequent 125+ years having to adjust the Rules to have the same effect. I prefer watching Rugby though and have some wonderful memories of some I've attended too. I've never played, nor been to a League one!

Anyway...Back to LIV!
		
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League has changed their rules numerous times. Until 1966 teams had unlimited tackles. That is quite a major change to the modern 5 tackled law


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Just read this partial quote from Garcia in a GolfWRX email about LIV Pumpkin Ridge...
'...Exciting news, my team is set and we'll soon be changing the logo and the name of the team so very excited to have all these things going on.'
Personally can't see anything 'exciting' there at all! Over-PR imo - nothing 'smooth' about any of it


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			League has changed their rules numerous times. Until 1966 teams had unlimited tackles. That is quite a major change to the modern 5 tackled law
		
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Did I say League hasn't changed its rules since?! Absolutely not! Just that they immediately made the necessary changes, whereas Rugby has spent 125+ years having to adjust theirs - albeit for a better, if occasional hypocritical, game imo 
FWIW. I think it was 4-tackles...now 6?
I can remember being rather bored watching (in Black and White, so that didn't help) League matches at Christchurch Showground field where two hardly identifiable teams slithered and slid all around the field with their unlimited tackles allocation until something actually happened. Rugby was much more interesting!
League, to me, is still less exciting/interesting than Rugby but has improved.

Anyway...With LIV, the only differentiation is, imo, to actully be 'different'. That hasn't been great imo. The Shotgun start is ho-hum, though fits with the '54' theme of players, holes and Tour title (probably the best 'innovtion'.


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Did I say League hasn't changed its rules since?! Absolutely not! Just that they immediately made the necessary changes, whereas Rugby has spent 125+ years having to adjust theirs - albeit for a better, if occasional hypocritical, game imo 
FWIW. I think it was 4-tackles...now 6?
I can remember being rather bored watching (in Black and White, so that didn't help) League matches at Christchurch Showground field where two hardly identifiable teams slithered and slid all around the field with their unlimited tackles allocation until something actually happened. Rugby was much more interesting!
League, to me, is still less exciting/interesting than Rugby but has improved.
		
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having played Tight head prop for 30 plus years I just do not identify with league in the same way as it had no similarities to the part of the game that I was involved in (pre the days of universal forwards being all over the pitch, I turned up for scrums and lineouts and the odd bit of handbags)


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## Springveldt (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The obvious reply would be 'Who?'. Or even 'Who cares?'!
Chacarra might have potential, but with OWGRs of 77 and 119 resp, Wolff and Ortiz continue the trend of LIV being a 'tour' for pension-funding has-beens/never weres!
Interesting that neither Pros were on your list of 'what abouts' at Travellers as there was certainly at least 1 player on that list above Wolff. And most (maybe even all?) were above Ortiz who MC-ed!
Advance knowledge perhaps?  Surely not! 

Click to expand...

Would people have been saying the same about Spieth if LIV had signed him when he fell down the rankings? Wolff has a ton of talent imho, think the pressure just got to him. He's still only 23.

I don't think he's going to be as good as Spieth but I wouldn't write him off yet.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			having played Tight head prop for 30 plus years I just do not identify with league in the same way as it had no similarities to the part of the game that I was involved in (pre the days of universal forwards being all over the pitch, I turned up for scrums and lineouts and the odd bit of handbags)
		
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League is generally played by guys who would be 1 or 2 rows back in the scrum! Speaking of which...League scrums are laughable, but achieve the objective of getting the ball back into play.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 28, 2022)

Rugby League provided the finest moment of sports commentary the world has ever seen.....


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## GB72 (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			League is generally played by guys who would be 1 or 2 rows back in the scrum! Speaking of which...League scrums are laughable, but achieve the objective of getting the ball back into play.
		
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I know (though we did have a 7s team at uni made up of front row only). I started playing number 8, moved to second row 2 weeks later, move to front row 3 weeks after that and played there for the rest of my playing career until injury ended it.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Would people have been saying the same about Spieth if LIV had signed him when he fell down the rankings? Wolff has a ton of talent imho, think the pressure just got to him. He's still only 23.

I don't think he's going to be as good as Spieth but I wouldn't write him off yet.
		
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Not particularly familiar with him/his travails. But it seems like a good place for him. Golf , more particularly Tour golf to make a living, tests more than just talent! With income 'guaranteed', there's far less pressure to perform - even with loss of some sponsorship.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rugby League provided the finest moment of sports commentary the world has ever seen.....







Click to expand...


Excellent example of 'independent commentating'!


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## Springveldt (Jun 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not particularly familiar with him/his travails. But it seems like a good place for him. Golf , more particularly Tour golf to make a living, tests more than just talent! With income 'guaranteed', there's far less pressure to perform - even with loss of some sponsorship.
		
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He's just turned 23, has $7.6M in career earnings, won on the PGA Tour at 20, has a 2nd in the US Open and a 4th in the PGA Championship. Yes he's fell down in the rankings into the 70's but he's so young he could turn that around (well not his OGWR as LIV have no points ) but he can still become a top player imho.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 28, 2022)

Liv will get OWRP if enough top 50 players move across.
How many is enough is open to debate but I think if 15- 20 moved across it would be more than enough. 

The majors want the strongest fields they can get and won't want a system that prevents that from happening.

It's all driven by how many players join Liv..


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## BiMGuy (Jun 28, 2022)

Let’s not drag the quality of discussion down any further with Rugby talk.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I know (though we did have a 7s team at uni made up of front row only). I started playing number 8, moved to second row 2 weeks later, move to front row 3 weeks after that and played there for the rest of my playing career until injury ended it.
		
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Might have also been a reflection on your speed!  Props aren't (well, weren't) expected to do much running - except to get to scrums/mauls. Locks a bit more (I have an enduring vision memory of Sir Colin Meads surging forward in a Test against South Africa, waiting for a pass, with his broken arm simply bandaged) and Flankers and #8 definitely, especially quick off-the-mark.


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## JamesR (Jun 28, 2022)

Is it on YouTube again this week?
What time does it start ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541846626309853185


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## sweaty sock (Jun 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv will get OWRP if enough top 50 players move across.
How many is enough is open to debate but I think if 15- 20 moved across it would be more than enough.

The majors want the strongest fields they can get and won't want a system that prevents that from happening.

It's all driven by how many players join Liv..
		
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For reference heres the governance and technical committee for the OWGR.





A few in that list may vote against LIV getting any traction at all....


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## evemccc (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Players don’t just go to the PGA tour for money - playing on the PGA tour gives players better chances for entry into Majors , it also gives them better chances of winning majors

Add in the ability for year round practise etc

The PGA tour wasn’t created purely to get the best players around the world and offer them all the riches on offer

It’s been around since 1929 ( broke away in 1969 )

Let’s be honest all the top Europeans over the last 3/4 decades have had playing rights on the PGA Tour and also the ET - it was prob only monty that didn’t move and that’s prob a big reason why he never got over the major line

What the ET are doing with the PGA tour is trying to get more of the co sanction events and it’s not a surprise that it’s events before the Open
		
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But seriously, how many top PGA Tour players turned up at Wentworth last year? Horschel won it…but who else bothered to come? Not even sure the Sainted Rory was there…

If the flagship ET event is not being respected - despite the famous ‘strategic alliance’ - we can be forgiven for assuming that TPGAT is like the Bush to the ET’s Blair…

#poodle


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## IainP (Jun 28, 2022)

Well if there was any hope this wouldn't be a long drawn out battle, we know it will be now.
Not really surprising Pelley went for the 'devil you know' , secure some concessions for the feeder tour. So far a bit light on detail but some positive words around the feeder-feeder tours. Be interesting to see how viewed by the younger European players.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pg...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			...
The majors want the strongest fields they can get and won't want a system that prevents that from happening.
..
		
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Still got quite a while before things really have to happen. So announcements up to 6 months to a year from now, effective a year from now, wouldn't be too much lead time imo.
Only DJ (19), BdC (30) and a couple of others are really World Class imo. Others, like Westwood and Poulter may have been once, but LIV is simply a (massive) pension top-up for them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

evemccc said:



			But seriously, how many top PGA Tour players turned up at Wentworth last year? Horschel won it…but who else bothered to come? Not even sure the Sainted Rory was there…

If the flagship ET event is not being respected - despite the famous ‘strategic alliance’ - we can be forgiven for assuming that TPHAT is the Bush to the ET’s Blair…

#poodle
		
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I’m not sure your point ?

Why would you expect PGA players to come across ? It’s normally just after the tour championship where most if they have made it to the end will be having down time 

the field is full of the top Europeans - Rory has played some 

it’s not a co sanction event so the PGA players would need release - but i would hope that the event would be left for all those ET players that played all through the year 

I have no doubt that if Rory etc did come across then they would be accused of “cherry picking”


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

evemccc said:



			But seriously, how many top PGA Tour players turned up at Wentworth last year? Horschel won it…but who else bothered to come? Not even sure the Sainted Rory was there…

If the flagship ET event is not being respected - despite the famous ‘strategic alliance’ - we can be forgiven for assuming that TPHAT is the Bush to the ET’s Blair…

#poodle
		
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To play the Wentworth event, a player has to be a member of The DP World Tour. Only a few Americans are. Equivalent applies to PGA Tour events, generally. 'Jointly Sanctioned' events, like the Scottish Open mean members of either tour can enter.


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## Springveldt (Jun 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541846626309853185

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RIP European Tour, hello PGA Tour Europe. 

Full on feeder tour now. Might actually get Korn Ferry guys and the like trying to join the PGA Tour Europe since top 10 get a card. 

So is the PGA Tour increasing to 135 or are the Korn Ferry guys getting shafted?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			RIP European Tour, hello PGA Tour Europe.

Full on feeder tour now. Might actually get Korn Ferry guys and the like trying to join the PGA Tour Europe since top 10 get a card.

So is the PGA Tour increasing to 135 or are the Korn Ferry guys getting shafted?
		
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Extra spots being opened up for Korn Ferry as well plus better pathways for the Sunshine and Australian Tours 

It’s got a good chance of making events on the ET stronger with events having the top players from a number of tours in them 

The European tour as most know it disappeared decades ago when it branched out to SA , Middle East , Far East etc but guess that was ok for the ET to do that


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## BiMGuy (Jun 28, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			RIP European Tour, hello PGA Tour Europe.

Full on feeder tour now. Might actually get Korn Ferry guys and the like trying to join the PGA Tour Europe since top 10 get a card.

So is the PGA Tour increasing to 135 or are the Korn Ferry guys getting shafted?
		
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The European Tour died a long time ago. It was well on the decline before Tiger turned up and became the PGA Tour cash machine which cemented the PGA Tour as the preeminent tour.


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## Anoetic (Jun 28, 2022)

If legacy in golf is only measured by major wins then 99% of players don’t leave a legacy as they aren’t good enough to win one,and have a job that involves weeks of travelling away from their families.  Better players will of course be paid more money But that’s life…  If people on this forum were offered a job where you only needed to work 10 weeks a year, 3 days a week, on double your current salary,  and given a joining fee of triple what you’d earn‘t previously in the whole of your working life, the decision to say no wouldn’t be easy…..golf for us is a hobby, but for a lot of those guys it’s an incredibly stressful job, and they continue with it as it’s what they are good at…Hats of to the people that turned down the money


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv will get OWRP if enough top 50 players move across.
How many is enough is open to debate but I think if 15- 20 moved across it would be more than enough.

The majors want the strongest fields they can get and won't want a system that prevents that from happening.

It's all driven by how many players join Liv..
		
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Well, that rules out Westwood and Poulter currently 87th and 89th resp. 
Of the top 4 at Centurion, Schwartzel is 125, Du Plesis is 467, Grace is 128 and Uhlien 334. So none of them would would qualify!
There are only 7 LIV players in the OWGR top 50, so hardly 'top flight'!


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## AussieKB (Jun 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Those majors

4 won by Koepka
2 won by DJ
1 each for Phil Mickleson, Patrick Reed and BDC

The golf tours evolved when the the Telly money came into it and unfortunately events in Australia etc are not on during prime time for either Europe or the US
		
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Golf from Europe is a good time for me, I live on the West Coast, plus most Aussies do not have a problem watching Wimbledon Cricket etc from England, on the East Coast the Golf from US is on in the morning depending which part of the US, not a problem.


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## Aussie Swinger (Jun 29, 2022)

I personally think Pelley’s missed a great opportunity to align with LIV and do what they say, ‘grow the game’. It would have been messy, but it was a chance take away golf being ‘America-centric’ and make it a Truely Global tour aka F1. A chance to see the best players play in Asia, Europe, South Africa, Australia and still have events in America, North and South, a truely ‘Global game’ as PeterDawson used to ‘bang on about’, but actually did nothing about.
Pelley should have had the balls to go through the short term pain for the longer term good of the game on a global scale. A chance to rewrite the rule book for the future. History is exactly that, history, it is done, these so called leading CEO’s need to look to the future.
 The European tour has been dying a ‘slow death’ as just the European version of the Korn ferry feeder tour. This is going to accelerate the belief that DP Tour is losing its value and even less inviting to sponsors than it is now. Just my two pennies worth anyway.


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Allowing Saudi tour players into the DP would be the end of the PGA Tour as we know it. Convincing DP to ban them is the real existential point for the PGAT. If they are let play, then the flood gates will open, and the PGAT will be left with only Tiger. Even Rory would be forgiven for turning 180 at that stage. A united, revamped PGAT+WPWT must be what both are working on behind the scenes. Not banning Saudis is also the DPs trump card, so they will not come out on that until they have a deal with the PGAT done, as it is their leverage.
		
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rksquire said:



			The big loser remains the DP World Tour.
		
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I dont think so. Far from it now. What I was guessing has come to pass. DP was able to exploit the situation. It wasnt really threatened itself. Saudi tour was always going to out of DPs league anyway, so no real impact. But extracted a deal for themselves from the PGAT that enhances their position. And the PGAT had to give them something to ensure they held the line against Saudi players access to other tournaments.
Euro tour is now in a better position than before the war.


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

Aussie Swinger said:



			I personally think Pelley’s missed a great opportunity to align with LIV and do what they say, ‘grow the game’.
Pelley should have had the balls to go through the short term pain for the longer term good of the game on a global scale.
		
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Pelley has no responsibility for the good of the game or its global growth. His is to making money for the elite crust of professional golfers in the sphere of competitive sport as entertainment.
And he has made the right move now. Strengthened the relationship with the PGAT and access to its golfers, and the cooperation now has a claim to being a global pro golf platform, drinking LIVs milkshake. 54 holes and farcical 'teams' will not cut it for the Saudis.


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## Aussie Swinger (Jun 29, 2022)

‘Euro tour is now in a better position than before the war’
I look forward to coming back and rereading this post again in 3 or 4 years time…


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## garyinderry (Jun 29, 2022)

People chat about wouldn't it be great to have a proper world tour. Visit so many differnt countries all the time etc. Grow the game globally. 

I'm pretty certain the pros wouldn't actually like it.


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## Aussie Swinger (Jun 29, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			People chat about wouldn't it be great to have a proper world tour. Visit so many differnt countries all the time etc. Grow the game globally.

I'm pretty certain the pros wouldn't actually like it.
		
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That’s because of the almost monopoly the PGA tour hold and have held over golf to this point. Everyone gets tired of travelling eventually. But Lewis Hamilton is travelling the world after 15 plus years of doing it with F1. Why can’t golf do the same? Say they stage one great event a month on a different continent,  is it not too much to ask/ require all these players to play in return for the huge financial gains they are getting? I don’t believe it is. I also think the 48 players/teams concept will go out the door first if more players move across. I honestly believe it will eventually turn into 125 player world tour if people let it flourish. It could be a win/win for golf fans all around the world. Liv have always said they will respect and work around the majors. I hope it personally Liv becomes the F1 equivalent in golf. Some people just don’t like change. I’m all for progress.


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

Aussie Swinger said:



			‘Euro tour is now in a better position than before the war’
I look forward to coming back and rereading this post again in 3 or 4 years time…
		
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Ill be happy to repost it !


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## BiMGuy (Jun 29, 2022)

Ticket sales must be going well. Only a 25% discount this time rather than free tickets.


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pro events different in so many ways to the amatuer world. Remember when a certain Justin Rose turned pro and missed 21 straight cuts. He didn't do too badly
		
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Welcome back Homer!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Ticket sales must be going well. Only a 25% discount this time rather than free tickets.
		
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I was going to ask about this. I'm seeing a lot of posts on Twitter for example with codes such as "Westwood25" to get a 25% discount on tickets. Is that normal for other golf events as I haven't noticed it before? This isn't a dig at LIV as I appreciate they are only just starting out.

I also wonder if LIV have signed up people to post positive things on social media to try to improve their image and increase their reach. It wouldn't surprise me if they had as they've got plenty of cash to throw around. I wonder if it works the same as for the players. You get a signing bonus and then X amount per positive post. What do we think the going rate would be for each post?


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

Aussie Swinger said:



			I personally think Pelley’s missed a great opportunity to align with LIV and do what they say, ‘grow the game’. It would have been messy, but it was a chance take away golf being ‘America-centric’ and make it a Truely Global tour aka F1. A chance to see the best players play in Asia, Europe, South Africa, Australia and still have events in America, North and South, a truely ‘Global game’ as PeterDawson used to ‘bang on about’, but actually did nothing about.
Pelley should have had the balls to go through the short term pain for the longer term good of the game on a global scale. A chance to rewrite the rule book for the future. History is exactly that, history, it is done, these so called leading CEO’s need to look to the future.
The European tour has been dying a ‘slow death’ as just the European version of the Korn ferry feeder tour. This is going to accelerate the belief that DP Tour is losing its value and even less inviting to sponsors than it is now. Just my two pennies worth anyway.
		
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That was never going to happen!
As it is, Pelley has gained benefits for the ET from 'trustworthy' folk. Had he gone the 'accept LIV' approach, he'd have been leaping into the unknown with a true 'competitor'. 
Golf IS US-centric! After the initial/pilot/'practice' event in UK - where screw-ups could be ignored and/or tweaked, where are all the LIV events?   USA of course!


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

I havent been approached yet, but if I am, subject to the non disclosure conditions, I will let you know as much as possible.

54 holes is just so fantastic. Its the game changer for me. Add in the teams element, and well, I think we have the perfect sport. I am just so grateful to Saudi Arabia for doing such a great job for golf, and giving it a massive global boost, and wrenching it from the protective exclusive control of the American. Saudi is a really lovely country too, if you havent visited, you should. The people are delightful and so open.


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			...
I also wonder if LIV have signed up people to post positive things on social media to try to improve their image and increase their reach. It wouldn't surprise me if they had as they've got plenty of cash to throw around. I wonder if it works the same as for the players. You get a signing bonus and then X amount per positive post. What do we think the going rate would be for each post?
		
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Ask Mel Smooth! 
FWIW. One of the orgs they seem to 'be in bed with' is Frimley based Performance 54 a 'modern marketing and consultancy group, with extensive experience within the golf and tourism sectors' that has been involved with Saudi events.


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## rksquire (Jun 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think so. Far from it now. What I was guessing has come to pass. DP was able to exploit the situation. It wasnt really threatened itself. Saudi tour was always going to out of DPs league anyway, so no real impact. But extracted a deal for themselves from the PGAT that enhances their position. And the PGAT had to give them something to ensure they held the line against Saudi players access to other tournaments.
Euro tour is now in a better position than before the war.
		
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I stick by it, the DPWT is still the biggest loser and has now accepted its status as an inferior product - only elevated when big brother decides it.

I think you and I see the announced DPWT alliance as something very different.  Even if a pro was now attracted by the prospect of potentially being fastracked to the PGAT and plays the DPWT for a while, chances are any potentially 'stars' will have a bigger pot of gold waved in their face by someone else.  I think the more interesting take from the announcement is around Pelley's comments regarding LIV: 

*"Most importantly, it was nowhere near the figures being bandied about in the media and in the players lounge over the past couple of months. We have had no further conversation with them since last summer."..... Pelley suggested the Greg Norman-fronted LIV Golf series would need to alter their business model for his organisation to do business with them....."Unfortunately Golf Saudi has elected to play outside the ecosystem," ......"I've been consistent that if, in fact, they are interested to play inside the ecosystem, and not launch a rival tour that I think is detrimental to the game at large, then I personally, from DP World's perspective, would be open - and they know that - to having a conversation."*

So, given 'acceptable' circumstances, and seemingly for the right money, there's a deal to be made with LIV and DPWT.  I don't really liked the rushed announcements and reactionary nature of the PGA Tour - the substance of both the changed events (more money, no cut!) and 'expansion' (basically continue as we with seemingly no real benefit to the DPWT except a quicker gateway for participants to the big league therefore devaluing itself even faster - unless there's a steady flow of European talent we don't know about).

The PGA Tour will survive this by putting on quality tournaments and have quality participants - McIlroy winning in Canada was a far more successful statement than any actual statements made so far.  The issue this weekend is the PGA Tour has such a week field so there may well be a bit more interest in what happens in Portland.


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

McIlroy winning in Canada, and it was good, was only good because the field quality was still high. If big numbers deflect, the quality is clearly on the Saudi tour, and he is only beating a field of stumble bums, then it means nothing. If anything, the more he wins by, the more meaningless the win.


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

rksquire, how is the DP a loser in anyway ? What has changed for it ? It wasnt in the league of the world top 50 players, which is LIVs target, anyway.
Its a regional, second division, tour, with a side role of feeder channel to the PGA. This move will enhance its link and cooperation with the PGa, increasing field quality, points, and standing. Not a lot. But anything is an improvement for them.


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## sunshine (Jun 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you want me to translate it for you as well Foxtroller? ;-)

https://www.marca.com/golf/2020/06/06/5eda8af946163fd2a08b46a4.html

Eugenio, al que entrena Antonio Barquero, *guarda un gran recuerdo de Severiano Ballesteros* y cómo éste le influyó. Su familia paterna es de Santander, y López-Chacarra suele pasar un mes de verano en Pedreña. "Seve me ha dejado entrar en su sala de trofeos y coger la jarra de clarete, ver las chaquetas verdes e incluso jugar con él los pares 3 de Pedreña. *Me decía: 'Todo lo que trabajes nunca es mucho, siempre puedes hacer más'.* Y tiene razón porque en el golf se hace cierto eso de, 'cuanto más entreno más suerte tengo'. Yo tiro mucho de aquella enseñanza", dice el madrileño, que no atiende a distracciones: *"Hay a quien le gusta ir a la discoteca y a mí gusta ir al campo de golf. Estos días puedo pasar 10 horas"*.


_López-Chacarra usually spends a summer month in Pedreña. "Seve has let me enter his trophy room and pick up the jar of claret, see the green jackets and even play the Pedreña par 3s with him._

Click to expand...


You said: “They are building the foundations of global support, a young Spaniard that used to practice with Seve,”

The article above describes a meeting with Seve. How much spin and propaganda can you produce? 🤦‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

sunshine said:



			You said: “They are building the foundations of global support, a young Spaniard that used to practice with Seve,”

The article above describes a meeting with Seve. How much spin and propaganda can you produce? 🤦‍♂️
		
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 Indeed
'... who once practiced with Seve...' would be better.
'... who practiced once with Seve....' better still.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 29, 2022)

Has anyone seen the Perez, Koepka, Reed presser? 

Watch it and it will tell you everything you need to know about 54 and the individuals who have jumped.

At least Perez admitted it was about the cash. But tried to get sympathy for having to decide whether or not to spend $150k on a private jet to be at the birth of his child, as he was forced to play an event as he was 121st in the FedEx. 

Even Reed looked sheepish at some of the stuff the other two were saying.


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Has anyone seen the Perez, Koepka, Reed presser?
...
		
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More importantly...Where's Mel today? 
Flying out to Portland to give us on-site coverage perhaps?


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## Bdill93 (Jun 29, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			More importantly...Where's Mel today?
Flying out to Portland to give us on-site coverage perhaps?
		
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Contract has expired now they have signed better talent...


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## IainP (Jun 29, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That was never going to happen!
As it is, Pelley has gained benefits for the ET from 'trustworthy' folk. Had he gone the 'accept LIV' approach, he'd have been leaping into the unknown with a true 'competitor'.
Golf IS US-centric! After the initial/pilot/'practice' event in UK - where screw-ups could be ignored and/or tweaked, *where are all the LIV events*?   *USA* of course!
		
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Interesting 🤔


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## Ethan (Jun 29, 2022)

The coverage of the press conference yesterday looks like a car crash.

I think the LIV lot should stop doing press if they don't want to bring this whole sport-washing facade down on top of them. The LIV golfers need something more convincing than 'we are just here to play golf '. It's not to get any better when they pitch up at the first Trump venue either.


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## Ethan (Jun 29, 2022)

The coverage of the press conference yesterday looks like a car crash. 

I think the LIV lot should stop doing press if they don't want to bring this whole sport-washing facade down on top of them. The LIV golfers need something more convincing than 'we are just here to play golf '. 



Backsticks said:



			I havent been approached yet, but if I am, subject to the non disclosure conditions, I will let you know as much as possible.

54 holes is just so fantastic. Its the game changer for me. Add in the teams element, and well, I think we have the perfect sport. I am just so grateful to Saudi Arabia for doing such a great job for golf, and giving it a massive global boost, and wrenching it from the protective exclusive control of the American. Saudi is a really lovely country too, if you havent visited, you should. The people are delightful and so open.
		
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The people will put their hand out to greet you. OK, it will have a large sword in it .......


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			Interesting 🤔
		
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I didn’t realise London, Bangkok, and Jeddah were all in the USA…


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## Backsticks (Jun 29, 2022)

Will they be adding more teams ? The Stonings, or the Lashings would get a lot of people behind them.


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## JamesR (Jun 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I didn’t realise London, Bangkok, and Jeddah were all in the USA…
		
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The majority of tournaments are, and I believe that is what goes against the PGA tour contracts


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## rksquire (Jun 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			rksquire, *how is the DP a loser in anyway *? What has changed for it ? It wasnt in the league of the world top 50 players, which is LIVs target, anyway.
Its a regional, second division, tour, with a side role of feeder channel to the PGA. This move will enhance its link and cooperation with the PGa, increasing field quality, points, and standing. Not a lot. But anything is an improvement for them.
		
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It's only my perception of the 'strategic alliance', I actually hope it's the opposite of what I think but I just don't see the additional mutual benefits to the DPWT.  But, as to how I'm perceiving it, how is DP a loser in anyway?... because:

* DPWT was probably the second best show in town in terms of field quality - it's now third.  This weekend, despite it being the Irish Open (my home Open), it will be 4th.  Because some of the best players in the world (9 of the top 10) are playing at Adare Manor.  At Mount Juliet top billing belongs to Shane Lowry (very supportive of his home Open) and Alex Fitzpatrick because he's someone's brother.
* PGA Tour has increased stake in European Tour Productions (now 40%), giving up some control is only good as long as the plan is clear.  The lack of clarity about what this means is slightly worrying, I can concede this might lead to better publicity for the DPWT in the USA, but only to the extent I believe it will be hyping the incoming 'talent'
* Access to the Barracuda and Barabosol tournaments..... events coincidentally on at the same time as the DPWTs prestigious Scottish Open and The Open, but sure DPWT players will bite our hands off to play rather than playing in the Scottish Open, because....
* PGA Tour co-sanction the Scottish Open to ensure their membership have access to FED EX points and massive purse money the week before the Open.  And there's space because the DPWT players aren't playing because they're enjoying 2 weeks in the USA 
*"DP World Tour members will now have direct and formal access to the pinnacle of men's professional play on the PGA TOUR".  No mistaking who the boss is here.
*Top Ten players in the DPWT rankings earn PGA Tour cards for the following season - excellent! - except in practice, because other events count than actual sole DPWT events (the WGC events and the Majors and the Co-Sanctioned events) so based on last year this would have resulted in cards being handed to Nicolai Hojgaard.  And that's it.  So the Top 10 DPWT Rankings is dominated by PGA Tour players by season end already but even if there is a potential rising star he immediately gets away to pastures new and untold riches.
*All of the above signed away until 2035!

Is the DPWT a loser.... maybe not, but I don't see them as winners and at best they are standing still.  They had an opportunity to come to the table and make a move - morally it might have been wrong, but it absolutely would have given them some bargaining power with the PGA Tour to strike a better deal.  I just don't like words like 'enhance' or 'expansion' in the press release because it's misleading; the reality is it is all (okay, mostly), to the benefit of the PGA Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 29, 2022)

Some stats here on strength of field across the tours so far this year.
Portland will have a stronger line up than any DPWT events thus far, and 5 of those events played on the PGA Tour.
https://datagolf.com/field-strength-table


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 29, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There are only 7 LIV players in the OWGR top 50, so hardly 'top flight'!
		
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At the moment but is the trickle over to Liv going to continue?


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 29, 2022)

I'm sure Liv scheduled this week against the John Deere classic on purpose.

They have a legitimate argument for having the stronger field with names like Dustin Johnson, Bryson, Brooks, Mickleson, Garcia, Ancer, Reed etc

Certainly way more past major winners..


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## JamesR (Jun 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I'm sure Liv scheduled this week against the John Deere classic on purpose...
		
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Because most players are having a rest before the Scottish Open and the Open?


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jun 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Has anyone seen the Perez, Koepka, Reed presser?

Watch it and it will tell you everything you need to know about 54 and the individuals who have jumped.

At least Perez admitted it was about the cash. But tried to get sympathy for having to decide whether or not to spend $150k on a private jet to be at the birth of his child, as he was forced to play an event as he was 121st in the FedEx.

Even Reed looked sheepish at some of the stuff the other two were saying.
		
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They are all absolutely spineless. Koepka barely managing a sentence aside from “opinions change and my opinion changed and that’s because opinions can change and mine changed so my opinion changed”

It is like this mystery tour where none of them can explain why they went over. Or they are in denial with themselves about the reason.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jun 29, 2022)

My heart bleeds with sympathy for Matt Wolff here.

23 year old multi millionaire who just wants some time off, ya know? And the hard luck of having a swing coach living in California, whilst choosing to be based in Florida for tax reasons. The poor soul.


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## Foxholer (Jun 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Some stats here on strength of field across the tours so far this year.
Portland will have a stronger line up than any DPWT events thus far, and 5 of those events played on the PGA Tour.
https://datagolf.com/field-strength-table

Click to expand...

Ooh! How was the flight/were the flights? 
No surprise they chose this date. It's being played at a time when non-LIV players are preparing for The Open by playing The Irish Open - unavailable to LIV members. JD's Strength of Field rating is projected at 54 compared with The Irish Open's 126, so certainly NOT higher rated than the DPWT event it coincides with!
And LIV's 'battle' is not against the DPWT. It's against the PGAT!

FWIW. I happened across this list

*Top 10 Most Disliked Golfers*

Patrick Reed.
Brooks Koepka.
Tiger Woods..
Phil Mickelson.
Vijay Singh.
Ian Poulter.
Rory Sabbatini.
Bryson DeChambeau.
Ben Hogan.
Sergio Garcia.
Btw. I'd be interested in your explanation of how the link you quoted works. I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually simply been provided with both the stats and the claim, as the ones on the screen that pops up indicates naff-all to me (and, having worked with stats for several years, I generally know how to read/analyse charts). The player section is more self-descriptive to me and simply reflects what has been pretty obvious for some time. DJ and BdC are the highest ranked LIV participants - at 17th and 31st resp!


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## Crow (Jun 29, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Ooh! How was the flight/were the flights? 
No surprise they chose this date. It's being played at a time when non-LIV players are preparing for The Open by playing The Irish Open - unavailable to LIV members. JD's Strength of Field rating is projected at 54 compared with The Irish Open's 126, so certainly NOT higher rated than the DPWT event it coincides with!
And LIV's 'battle' is not against the DPWT. It's against the PGAT!

FWIW. I happened across this list

*Top 10 Most Disliked Golfers*

Patrick Reed.
Brooks Koepka.
Tiger Woods..
Phil Mickelson.
Vijay Singh.
Ian Poulter.
Rory Sabbatini.
Bryson DeChambeau.
Ben Hogan.
Sergio Garcia.


Click to expand...

Tiger beats Mickelson again!


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## AussieKB (Jun 30, 2022)

It's Official the DPWT is now one step below the  Korn Ferry Tour, will lose up to top 10 players every year to the PGA.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It's Official the DPWT is now one step below the  Korn Ferry Tour, will lose up to top 10 players every year to the PGA.
		
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Indeed. Korn Ferry Tour gets 30 cards for the PGA each year, as against 10 for the DPWT.  
I suspect Pelley will be rewarded with a position on the PGA Tour in the not too distant future for his “efforts” while running the DPWT.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Westwood struggling with the concept of a ‘countdown’ here 😂 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542321910553247745


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## Slab (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Westwood struggling with the concept of a ‘countdown’ here 😂

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542321910553247745

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That's actually pretty cool (although I'm sure they could've edited out the whining sound...     and the noise of the drone )


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## HeftyHacker (Jun 30, 2022)

Slab said:



			That's actually pretty cool (although I'm sure they could've edited out the whining sound...     and the noise of the drone )
		
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This one with Tom Brady was epic!


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## timd77 (Jun 30, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61989836

Interesting piece with Westwood on the Ryder Cup here. Telling that he’s calling it the European tour rather than towing the line and calling it the dp world tour, bit of annoyance I’d say.

Have to be honest, if the LIV players did get picked for the RC I’m not sure I could cheer them on. It’s why I struggle to support England in the football, most of the players are rivals every week and I can’t switch that off!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Greg Norman sticking to the man here 😂 

Just out of interest, wonder how the demographics of support for LIV/age bear out on this forum? 
I'm 51 myself so under the 55 years that seems to be the pivot point in the Harris Poll that has been examined in the article. 

Of course if that continues, time is on the side of LIV. 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542306584050556928


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It's Official the DPWT is now one step below the  Korn Ferry Tour, will lose up to top 10 players every year to the PGA.
		
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It’s not at all is it 

The ET will still continue to be the tour where all the Europeans ( not in the college system ) learn their game - it’s not new that the top Europeans get Tour Cards - this now could attract better players to the ET as well


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## fenwayrich (Jun 30, 2022)

timd77 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61989836

Interesting piece with Westwood on the Ryder Cup here. Telling that he’s calling it the European tour rather than towing the line and calling it the dp world tour, bit of annoyance I’d say.

Have to be honest, if the LIV players did get picked for the RC I’m not sure I could cheer them on. It’s why I struggle to support England in the football, most of the players are rivals every week and I can’t switch that off!
		
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I suspect that they've got no chance of selection in 2023 due to the influence of the likes of Rahm and McIlroy. That much touted European morale would be shattered by the inclusion of the Bonesaw Brigade.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

timd77 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61989836

Interesting piece with Westwood on the Ryder Cup here. Telling that he’s calling it the European tour rather than towing the line and calling it the dp world tour, bit of annoyance I’d say.

*Have to be honest, if the LIV players did get picked for the RC I’m not sure I could cheer them on.* It’s why I struggle to support England in the football, most of the players are rivals every week and I can’t switch that off!
		
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I don't get that. They're still the guys that have done a lot for representing British/ European golf for the last 20 years or so. They've taken a pay day, loads of sportsmen/ businessmen have and they will continue to do so. 

That being said, they might not make many more teams anyway - Captaincy however....

The younger guys might be somewhat of a loss in playing terms though - Horsfield being one


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## BiMGuy (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Greg Norman sticking to the man here 😂

Just out of interest, wonder how the demographics of support for LIV/age bear out on this forum?
I'm 51 myself so under the 55 years that seems to be the pivot point in the Harris Poll that has been examined in the article.

Of course if that continues, time is on the side of LIV. 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542306584050556928

Click to expand...

I’m in my early 40s, most of my friends are the same or late 30s. None of us are in support of 54. Neither are any of the younger lads at work that I’ve spoken to about it.


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Greg Norman sticking to the man here 😂

Just out of interest, wonder how the demographics of support for LIV/age bear out on this forum?
I'm 51 myself so under the 55 years that seems to be the pivot point in the Harris Poll that has been examined in the article.

Of course if that continues, time is on the side of LIV. 🤔


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542306584050556928

Click to expand...

Unfortunately for LIV Tour, the same young demographic are also more fickle and move on to the next new shiny thing quite quickly.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			They are all absolutely spineless. Koepka barely managing a sentence aside from “opinions change and my opinion changed and that’s because opinions can change and mine changed so my opinion changed”

It is like this mystery tour where none of them can explain why they went over. Or they are in denial with themselves about the reason.
		
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At least he's consistent about something, though that'll likely change

As for the 'team' aspect promoted as a major innovation...it's just an irrelevant gimmick that's there purely to 'differentiate' LIV from other tours. Ryder/Palmer Cups styles are proper team events as Davis/BJK Cups are in Tennis. LIV teams are an irrelevant adjunct that might bond LIV members slightly, but will be of little, if any, interest to the watching public. Tournament Golf is an individual comp/test, just as tournament Tennis is.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:




At least he's consistent about something, though that'll likely change

As for the 'team' aspect promoted as a major innovation...it's just an irrelevant gimmick that's there purely to 'differentiate' LIV from other tours. Ryder/Palmer Cups styles are proper team events as Davis/BJK Cups are in Tennis. LIV teams are an irrelevant adjunct that might bond LIV members slightly, but will be of little, if any, interest to the watching public. Tournament Golf is an individual comp/test, just as tournament Tennis is.
		
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Id certainly try a bit harder on Saturday if there was a chance of getting a 700k payout despite a bad first 2 days....


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Unfortunately for LIV Tour, the same young demographic are also more fickle and move on to the next new shiny thing quite quickly.
		
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And I'd bet they didn't factor in the natural openness to change that 'the yoof' have vs the 'natural' aversion to change of the over 55s. Do that and they'd likely get significantly different results!


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Id certainly try a bit harder on Saturday if there was a chance of getting a 700k payout despite a bad first 2 days.... 

Click to expand...

Maybe if it was 'real' money!  It would also pay to put some sort of effort in on Saturday anyway, as the 'payment' increases, though at Centurions $120k for 48th and $2k per place above, 'so what'!


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe if it was 'real' money!  It would also pay to put some sort of effort in on Saturday anyway, as the 'payment' increases, though at Centurions $120k for 48th and $2k per place above, 'so what'!
		
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I dont doubt that its real money.. They wouldnt be turning up in Portland if it wasnt


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Some interesting insights from Steve Elkington on the whole Liv Golf proposal to players and caddies.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I dont doubt that its real money.. They wouldnt be turning up in Portland if it wasnt
		
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There's almost certainly 'incentives' in their contracts that 'encourage' that. MbS and Norman aren't stupid!


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jun 30, 2022)

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...liv-golf-series-gets-set-first-event-portland


Lee Westwood crying about not being able to play in the Ryder Cup does make me laugh. Nobody forced you to accept money, bro. If it isn’t the consequences of your own completely immoral actions and decisions…


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Some interesting insights from Steve Elkington on the whole Liv Golf proposal to players and caddies.







Click to expand...

Cheers for sharing that - some interesting views from somebody with a lot of inside knowledge.


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## timd77 (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I don't get that. They're still the guys that have done a lot for representing British/ European golf for the last 20 years or so. They've taken a pay day, loads of sportsmen/ businessmen have and they will continue to do so.

That being said, they might not make many more teams anyway - Captaincy however....

The younger guys might be somewhat of a loss in playing terms though - Horsfield being one
		
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Hopefully Stenson isn’t put in a position of having to pick/not pick them. Seems that he’s besties with Poulter, there might be some expectation for him to be an assistant or whatever they call them.


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## Beezerk (Jun 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...liv-golf-series-gets-set-first-event-portland


Lee Westwood crying about not being able to play in the Ryder Cup does make me laugh. Nobody forced you to accept money, bro. If it isn’t the consequences of your own completely immoral actions and decisions…
		
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Is Westood mentioned in that article, have you posted the correct one?
I do see a biased, poorly written article though with plenty of emotional blackmail thrown in for good measure.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Is Westood mentioned in that article, have you posted the correct one?
I do see a biased, poorly written article though with plenty of emotional blackmail thrown in for good measure.
		
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The press conference where Garcia,Westwood, and Kaymer are asked about the Ryder Cup is here, nobody crying about anything, just pointing out how ridiculously petty the existing tours are behaving in the face of something new.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Indeed. Korn Ferry Tour gets 30 cards for the PGA each year, as against 10 for the DPWT.
I suspect Pelley will be rewarded with a position on the PGA Tour in the not too distant future for his “efforts” while running the DPWT.
		
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Good morning, or, with the 8/9 hour time difference, should I say good evening.
That's an *additional* 10 cards - on top of those already exempt.
I'd be more concerned that TPGAT has upped its stake in DPWT to 40%. Hopefully, that's simply to make it a more attractive tour for players to aspire to.


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## sunshine (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Ask Mel Smooth! 
FWIW. One of the orgs they seem to 'be in bed with' is Frimley based Performance 54 a 'modern marketing and consultancy group, with extensive experience within the golf and tourism sectors' that has been involved with Saudi events.
		
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I can’t tell if your comments are tongue in cheek, but LIV = 54 in Roman numerals so the connection is very concrete.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I can’t tell if your comments are tongue in cheek, but LIV = 54 in Roman numerals so the connection is very concrete.
		
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It's something of a puzzle. Performance 54 has been around a longish time (since 2015) but Performance54 Group, of which there's an 'intersecting' director along with several Saudi ones, only since 2021.
And yes, I know my Roman numerals and the emphasis on '54' - an elegant/convenient creation (some might say 'gimmick') that PR folk are good at dreaming up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The press conference where Garcia,Westwood, and Kaymer are asked about the Ryder Cup is here, nobody crying about anything, just pointing out how ridiculously petty the existing tours are behaving in the face of something new.







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None of them care about the Ryder Cup anymore 

They knew what would happen if they chased the money and off they went 

Europe haven’t lost anyone that would potentially play in the next one anyway . 

A number of burnt their bridges in regards being Ryder Cup captain though


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## Slab (Jun 30, 2022)

Still on the fence for this whole thing, time will tell I guess

However I’m liking the info on how the caddies are being treated at an LIV event, seems long overdue change for the better (assuming they are OK with the source of the cash that paid for the hotels/flights etc)
Travel, food and accommodation taken care of means unlike pgat/et events where plenty of them go home out of pocket if the player doesn’t make the cut, at least they are being looked after (& even paid extra if they mic up)

Aside from the funding it’d be a brave person to say that aspect isn’t a big positive (& fully deserved) ... or have I been 'washed'


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

timd77 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61989836

Interesting piece with Westwood on the Ryder Cup here. Telling that he’s calling it the European tour rather than towing the line and calling it the dp world tour, bit of annoyance I’d say.

Have to be honest, if the LIV players did get picked for the RC I’m not sure I could cheer them on. It’s why I struggle to support England in the football, most of the players are rivals every week and I can’t switch that off!
		
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I totally agree with Westwood here. Why should they kick off and expel players just for playing in another tour? It's nonsense.

On the flipside, I do hope we're not still needing players like Westwood and Poulter at the next Ryder as that would be a sad inditement of the lack of European talent coming through, but that's another issue.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

Slab said:



			Still on the fence for this whole thing, time will tell I guess

However I’m liking the info on how the caddies are being treated at an LIV event, seems long overdue change for the better (assuming they are OK with the source of the cash that paid for the hotels/flights etc)
Travel, food and accommodation taken care of means unlike pgat/et events where plenty of them go home out of pocket if the player doesn’t make the cut, at least they are being looked after (& even paid extra if they mic up)

Aside from the funding it’d be a brave person to say that aspect isn’t a big positive (& fully deserved) ... or have I been 'washed' 

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I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ? 

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I totally agree with Westwood here. Why they should kick off and expel players just for playing in another tour? It's nonsense.

On the flipside, I do hope we're not still needing players like Westwood and Poulter at the next Ryder as that would be a sad inditement of the lack of European talent coming through, but that's another issue.
		
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Nobody can say they they weren't explicitly warned that they would be banned and become ineligible for the Ryder Cup if they put a tee in the ground at LIV.

If we need Westwood and Poulter at the next RC, we have already badly lost it.


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



*Nobody can say they they weren't explicitly warned that they would be banned and become ineligible for the Ryder Cup if they put a tee in the ground at LIV.*

If we need Westwood and Poulter at the next RC, we have already badly lost it.
		
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That doesn't really explain why though? It does look like the existing tours throwing the toys out of the pram at a bit of competition to me. 

And yeah, agreed on that - although, not sure what sort of a Ryder Cup it will be without DJ, Koepka and others either. I still think they might relax the rules at some point to allow both sides to have their best line-ups, otherwise it will be a bit of a wash-out year for it.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ?

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.
		
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Might be another indication/way to hide that the players aren't actually getting the 'prize money'. Or simply (more likely) to avoid paying the normal 10% negotiated on TPGA/DPWT events. $475K for CS's man down to $12K for last place bag seems a bit seems excessive and out of proportion! Makes sense to have a reasonable, but not excessive amount paid - and by organisers. Players a welcome to 'tip' as they are anywhere - provided they actually get/have got payment from LIV.


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## Beezerk (Jun 30, 2022)

Employees get a better wage and some people still try to find a negative in it.
Unbelievable Jeff 😂


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## r0wly86 (Jun 30, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Employees get a better wage and some people still try to find a negative in it.
Unbelievable Jeff 😂
		
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They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense


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## Beezerk (Jun 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense
		
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Makes perfect sense, someone looking after the “small man” for a change. 
Employed or self employed it doesn’t really matter to me, I just find it incredible that people are trying to find fault with someone getting a payrise. 
By your logic the caddies should be sat outside the clubhouse in the rain while the pros sip champagne inside 😂


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## r0wly86 (Jun 30, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Makes perfect sense, someone looking after the “small man” for a change.
Employed or self employed it doesn’t really matter to me, I just find it incredible that people are trying to find fault with someone getting a payrise.
By your logic the caddies should be sat outside the clubhouse in the rain while the pros sip champagne inside 😂
		
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Not at all, I don't knock it at all. Just doesn't follow standard employment law practices that is all


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## Beezerk (Jun 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Not at all, I don't knock it at all. Just doesn't follow standard employment law practices that is all
		
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Does it have to?


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## pokerjoke (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ?

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.
		
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Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.
		
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That’s not really how being self employed works.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			That’s not really how being self employed works.
		
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The PGA tour also controls who are members of that tour 

They can play on any tour they are a member off - in this case the PGA tour have revoked their membership 

So the players can play where they like providing they adhere to the rules of that tour


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## JamesR (Jun 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.
		
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They are independent contractors. Who have signed contracts to abide by PGA tour rules.
One of the rules they are breaching, by playing on the LIV tour, is playing on another tour largely/mainly staged in North America. Or so I have been led to understand.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, *just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour*, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense
		
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I's not 'the responsibility of the tour' though. They seem to simply be seeing an inequity for caddies, either/both between those of winner vs 54th's, or the actual amount compared to normal Tour caddies - even for the 54th's.
So a reasonable, if likely higher than normal/to be expected, amount can simply be paid directly. And, as I posted, players can tip extra if they feel obliged.
I'm sure the Westwood family is happy to have 'regular' income!


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## GB72 (Jun 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense
		
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Not sur how much it is relevant but when my wife was a contractor she woudl normally have food and hotel costs included for any job that involved working away from home for any period of time. Was not unusual for her. For longer term contracts, she would set her rates accordingly if she was to be living away from home Monday-Friday for a number of weeks or monhts but certainly she would look for the company she was contracted to provide a daily allowance for food and accomodation if it was a 3 day job as we have here.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Not sur how much it is relevant but when my wife was a contractor she woudl normally have food and hotel costs included for any job that involved working away from home for any period of time. Was not unusual for her. For longer term contracts, she would set her rates accordingly if she was to be living away from home Monday-Friday for a number of weeks or monhts but certainly she would look for the company she was contracted to provide a daily allowance for food and accomodation if it was a 3 day job as we have here.
		
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Indeed, as a contractor, my rate was set irrespective of where I worked, with accommodation generally arranged/paid for by the client and meals either included or at 'staff' allowance rates.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The press conference where Garcia,Westwood, and Kaymer are asked about the Ryder Cup is here, nobody crying about anything, just pointing out how ridiculously petty the existing tours are behaving in the face of something new.
...
		
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Working late? Jet lagged?


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## pokerjoke (Jun 30, 2022)

JamesR said:



			They are independent contractors. Who have signed contracts to abide by PGA tour rules.
One of the rules they are breaching, by playing on the LIV tour, is playing on another tour largely/mainly staged in North America. Or so I have been led to understand.
		
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No disrespect James because I don’t know either,but led to believe means nothing to me.
I worked 11 years for a company on a self employed basis,guided by their rules and their governing bodies.
However as soon as something that didn’t suit their narrative they changed the rules to suit.
The PGA tour have done that haven’t they?
I’m sure if the Liv tour gathers momentum and other names leave( even bigger names) it would probably come to no surprise if they did some sort of u-turn.


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## r0wly86 (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, as a contractor, my rate was set irrespective of where I worked, with accommodation generally arranged/paid for by the client and meals either included or at 'staff' allowance rates.
		
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being paid by the client, not a third party which is the difference


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout. 
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout.
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.
		
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He certainly had something else on his mind last week


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			being paid by the client, not a third party which is the difference
		
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From memory, that was before IR35 came in anyway. I'm sure it would be checked out with accountant and likely handled differently these days.


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout.
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.
		
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Good player, but appears to have deleted personality from the options list.


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout.
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.
		
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Imagine if it was Rory.


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout.
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.
		
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Of course it is! A couple of 100mill to play 54 holes of exhibition golf with a few has-beens and choppers! What's not to like!!!


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Imagine if it was Rory. 

Click to expand...

More chance Bremner than McIlroy........!


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Of course it is! A couple of 100mill to play 54 holes of* exhibition golf* with a few has-beens and choppers! What's not to like!!! 

Click to expand...

Its tournament golf....


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Its tournament golf....
		
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Apologies I'd forgotten! Tournament golf.....but louder (whatever that's supposed to mean!!)


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Apologies I'd forgotten! Tournament golf.....but *louder* (whatever that's supposed to mean!!) 

Click to expand...

I think it is the noise of cash registers and snouts feeding in the trough.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rumours of a top 10 ranked player set to move across to LIV in the coming weeks -  Cantlay seems to be the popular shout.
Realistically, I can see a few players moving over post The Open - from a commercial point of view for the players, it’s a much more attractive package.
		
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I trust it's the older brother Patrick (#7), not Nick (#1804)!
Post The Open would be natural, though not reqd as it's independent of Tours - at least for anyone of note.

Drip feeding 'converts' is a reasonable PR tactic to keep LIV in the news. With 55 players already signed up though there's likely to be some competition for the 54 places. It's not as if players need a break from the few exhibitions already scheduled.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think it is the noise of cash registers and snouts feeding in the trough.
		
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Just think about the irony of that while you’re paying to watch the John Dreary Classic this weekend, while myself and many others are watching the most entertaining golf event of the weekend,  buckshee. ;-)


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just think about the irony of that while you’re paying to watch the John Dreary Classic this weekend, while myself and many others are watching the most entertaining golf event of the weekend,  buckshee. ;-)
		
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Irish Open - good shout


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

Just had a look on YoofTube - Saudi Tour has 3,400 views at the moment


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just think about the irony of that while you’re paying to watch the John Dreary Classic this weekend, while myself and many others are watching the most entertaining golf event of the weekend,  buckshee. ;-)
		
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No irony at all. The LIV Tour is a tawdry and grubby affair, with a bunch of players who either can't cut it any more on the PGA Tour or are just greedy bar stewards who want to hoover up as much money as they can. The TV coverage of it is watchable only by ADD types and the team format is pitiful. Those of you who claim to love it will tire of it in time. You'll see.

I will be watching The Irish Open, as you might expect from my avatar.

The PGA Tour should stick to their line of banning players, and refusing to allow OWGR points. Then in a while, they will make a limited time offer, an amnesty, for players to return. Some will do so. All this crap about independent contractors who should be free to play where they want will be laughed out of court, and in due course, players like Ancer will no longer qualify for majors.


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## sweaty sock (Jun 30, 2022)

People do realise the pga was formed because in the 1960s golfers who toured felt they were playing against weak fields for not enough share of the tv money.  So broke away to form another organisation, for the best players, who would share all the money.... 

Also worth note it was re united with the main organisation pretty quickly with all the cash distributed as they requested.

The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history...


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## sweaty sock (Jun 30, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Just had a look on YoofTube - Saudi Tour has 3,400 views at the moment 

Click to expand...

I dont think they tee off until 9pm


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			People do realise the pga was formed because in the 1960s golfers who toured felt they were playing against weak fields for not enough share of the tv money.  So broke away to form another organisation, for the best players, who would share all the money....

Also worth note it was re united with the main organisation pretty quickly with all the cash distributed as they requested.

The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history...
		
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That wasn't the same, though. That was largely a separation between players who were largely club pros and those who weren't. And the LIV Tour is not a breakaway of the best players.


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## PieMan (Jun 30, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			I dont think they tee off until 9pm
		
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You're right - my bad. They're showing Centurion again. 

But 3.5k watching Centurion again - it was bad first time round!!


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That wasn't the same, though. That was largely a separation between players who were largely club pros and those who weren't. And the LIV Tour is not a breakaway of the best players.
		
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Granted theve not got current top 10 talent - but im not having the fact that they dont have some of the best players in the world.

Multiple major champions who until joining LIV would have been in conversations at any Major this year.

Its only a 54 man event, they're never going to get 1-54 are they!


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			People do realise the pga was formed because in the 1960s golfers who toured felt they were playing against weak fields for not enough share of the tv money.  So broke away to form another organisation, for the best players, who would share all the money....

Also worth note it was re united with the main organisation pretty quickly with all the cash distributed as they requested.

The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history...
		
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Pelley actually attended a meeting in Malta a couple of years ago to discuss creating a new tour with the people that now run LIV. Apparently he suggested a round in Saudi, which might explain the relative quietness about the source of LIV funding from the DPWT?
One thing for sure, professional golf is going through huge changes, which despite the hopes of some on here, won’t ever go back to what we’ve become accustomed to.


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Granted theve not got current top 10 talent - but im not having the fact that they dont have some of the best players in the world.

Multiple major champions who until joining LIV would have been in conversations at any Major this year.

Its only a 54 man event, they're never going to get 1-54 are they!
		
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I didn't say they haven't got some great players, and may get more, but it is not a breakaway of the great players to get away from the mediocre ones. Liv has quite a few people who wouldn't get recognised if they stood next to a Tour bag with their name on it. 

On the big names, Phil Mick is done, he won't win any more majors or PGA Tour events, BdC looks increasingly like a fairground attraction but could win some events if they set them up for him with 100 yard wide fairways and 8000 yards length, Kopeka could still win, Schwartzel could still win at Augusta, Oosthuizen could possibly still win, but he has started to look like he finds there is too little oxygen when majors come down to the last round. DJ seems to have been told by his missus she is fed up travelling to places like Michigan and Tennessee.


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pelley actually attended a meeting in Malta a couple of years ago to discuss creating a new tour with the people that now run LIV. Apparently he suggested a round in Saudi, which might explain the relative quietness about the source of LIV funding from the DPWT?
One thing for sure, professional golf is going through huge changes, which despite the hopes of some on here, won’t ever go back to what we’ve become accustomed to.
		
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Obviously going through changes, for sure. 

But I think we all want to see the best players play each other. You need regular rivalries, Jack vs Palmer/Miller/Trevino etc, Tiger vs Phil, etc. That won't happen with 2 Tours. So unless you think that the LIV Tour is going to consume the PGA Tour, and have the DPWT as a side dish, then what is the end-game?


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## woofers (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			With 55 players already signed up though there's likely to be some competition for the 54 places. It's not as if players need a break from the few exhibitions already scheduled.
		
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Bdill93 said:



			Its only a 54 man event, they're never going to get 1-54 are they!
		
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Hey Guys, my understanding was that it’s only 48 players at a time, when did they add the other 6 and how does that fit into teams of 4?


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## sweaty sock (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I didn't say they haven't got some great players, and may get more, but it is not a breakaway of the great players to get away from the mediocre ones. Liv has quite a few people who wouldn't get recognised if they stood next to a Tour bag with their name on it.

On the big names, Phil Mick is done, he won't win any more majors or PGA Tour events, BdC looks increasingly like a fairground attraction but could win some events if they set them up for him with 100 yard wide fairways and 8000 yards length, Kopeka could still win, Schwartzel could still win at Augusta, Oosthuizen could possibly still win, but he has started to look like he finds there is too little oxygen when majors come down to the last round. DJ seems to have been told by his missus she is fed up travelling to places like Michigan and Tennessee.
		
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I dont think the point was about the best players breaking away, I think the point was about players breaking away for the money....


Ethan said:



			Obviously going through changes, for sure.

But I think we all want to see the best players play each other. You need regular rivalries, Jack vs Palmer/Miller/Trevino etc, Tiger vs Phil, etc. That won't happen with 2 Tours. So unless you think that the LIV Tour is going to consume the PGA Tour, and have the DPWT as a side dish, then what is the end-game?
		
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2 tours would work fine, Some players winning on the pga, some winning on the liv, all come together at the majors...  its basically how it already works.  How often were tiger vs phil actually at a pga event together


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			I dont think the point was about the best players breaking away, I think the point was about players breaking away for the money....


2 tours would work fine, Some players winning on the pga, some winning on the liv, all come together at the majors...  its basically how it already works.  How often were tiger vs phil actually at a pga event together
		
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The PGA Tour broke away for the money, certainly, but it was also the best players breaking away from the club pros, like the Premier League breaking away from Championship and League One teams.

It wasn't players who can no longer win on the PGA Tour, or players who have never won on it, breaking away. The current situation is Aston Villa and Leeds along with QPR, Sunderland, MK Dons and Wycombe Wanderers breaking away to set up a new league where they play for 70 minutes and the game is louder.


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## Depreston (Jun 30, 2022)

Got my eye drops ready 

Remember whatever you do 

Don’t blink


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I didn't say they haven't got some great players, and may get more, but it is not a breakaway of the great players to get away from the mediocre ones. *Liv has quite a few people who wouldn't get recognised if they stood next to a Tour bag with their name on it*.

On the big names, Phil Mick is done, he won't win any more majors or PGA Tour events, BdC looks increasingly like a fairground attraction but could win some events if they set them up for him with 100 yard wide fairways and 8000 yards length, Kopeka could still win, Schwartzel could still win at Augusta, Oosthuizen could possibly still win, but he has started to look like he finds there is too little oxygen when majors come down to the last round. DJ seems to have been told by his missus she is fed up travelling to places like Michigan and Tennessee.
		
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Legit besides about 10 players on the PGA tour the same thing could be said.... The average Joe wont recognise Scheffler or Morikawa. I do agree however that of the 5 biggest names (PIP 2021) in world golf - LIV does only have 2. They have 4 out of the top 10.

I literally would not count out a single one of the LIV players, Phil included, at majors. He won one more recently than Rory


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Legit besides about 10 players on the PGA tour the same thing could be said.... The average Joe wont recognise Scheffler or Morikawa. I do agree however that of the 5 biggest names (PIP 2021) in world golf - LIV does only have 2. They have 4 out of the top 10.

I literally would not count out a single one of the LIV players, Phil included, at majors. He won one more recently than Rory 

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The planets aligned for Phil at Kiawah. It won't happen again. Happy to offer a modest wager on Rory vs Phil in majors. 

Not sure Joe TikTok would recognise DJ or Bryson, and they certainly won't recognise Charl Schwartzel. Phil, maybe, but he is old enough to be their Dad or granddad.

None of the LIV Tour players in the top 40 or so in the OWGR are in a higher position than they were at the end of 2021, and some have fallen quite badly.


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## Mel Smooth (Jun 30, 2022)

Interesting pre round interview from Brooksie. 
😂

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542527070273564672


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pelley actually attended a meeting in Malta a couple of years ago to discuss creating a new tour with the people that now run LIV. Apparently he suggested a round in Saudi, which might explain the relative quietness about the source of LIV funding from the DPWT?
One thing for sure, professional golf is going through huge changes, which despite the hopes of some on here, won’t ever go back to what we’ve become accustomed to.
		
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What allegedly happened 2 years ago is absolutely unimportant save the fact that nothing appears to have specifically come from it - save rumours and innuendo. At an old club, I used to play frequently with a retired President/CEO of a huge software company who regularly played with his equivalent in competing companies.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting pre round interview from Brooksie.
		
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Where can I send the bill for the time wasted watching that? C/0 LIV Pumpkin Ridge?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542493208873164807


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## Backsticks (Jun 30, 2022)

rksquire said:



			It's only my perception of the 'strategic alliance', I actually hope it's the opposite of what I think but I just don't see the additional mutual benefits to the DPWT.  But, as to how I'm perceiving it, how is DP a loser in anyway?... because:

* DPWT was probably the second best show in town in terms of field quality - it's now third.  This weekend, despite it being the Irish Open (my home Open), it will be 4th.  Because some of the best players in the world (9 of the top 10) are playing at Adare Manor.  At Mount Juliet top billing belongs to Shane Lowry (very supportive of his home Open) and Alex Fitzpatrick because he's someone's brother.
* PGA Tour has increased stake in European Tour Productions (now 40%), giving up some control is only good as long as the plan is clear.  The lack of clarity about what this means is slightly worrying, I can concede this might lead to better publicity for the DPWT in the USA, but only to the extent I believe it will be hyping the incoming 'talent'
* Access to the Barracuda and Barabosol tournaments..... events coincidentally on at the same time as the DPWTs prestigious Scottish Open and The Open, but sure DPWT players will bite our hands off to play rather than playing in the Scottish Open, because....
* PGA Tour co-sanction the Scottish Open to ensure their membership have access to FED EX points and massive purse money the week before the Open.  And there's space because the DPWT players aren't playing because they're enjoying 2 weeks in the USA
*"DP World Tour members will now have direct and formal access to the pinnacle of men's professional play on the PGA TOUR".  No mistaking who the boss is here.
*Top Ten players in the DPWT rankings earn PGA Tour cards for the following season - excellent! - except in practice, because other events count than actual sole DPWT events (the WGC events and the Majors and the Co-Sanctioned events) so based on last year this would have resulted in cards being handed to Nicolai Hojgaard.  And that's it.  So the Top 10 DPWT Rankings is dominated by PGA Tour players by season end already but even if there is a potential rising star he immediately gets away to pastures new and untold riches.
*All of the above signed away until 2035!

Is the DPWT a loser.... maybe not, but I don't see them as winners and at best they are standing still.  They had an opportunity to come to the table and make a move - morally it might have been wrong, but it absolutely would have given them some bargaining power with the PGA Tour to strike a better deal.  I just don't like words like 'enhance' or 'expansion' in the press release because it's misleading; the reality is it is all (okay, mostly), to the benefit of the PGA Tour.
		
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Thanks for the full reply. Your buttom para sums it though, which was my point. It may be no better off. But we agree it isnt a loser, which is where I thought you were too harsh. Quite aside from the Saudi threat, the Euro tour lost the battle to even keeping on the coat tails of the PGA years ago. Some deeper cooperation is what is should have been doing anyway.

Many of the points you make are correct, and highlight that the PGAT is the senior partner in the deal. But that is the reality of it, and it doesnt follow that the deal harms DP.
Much better to have a big strong friend when there is a new bully in town, than trying to take on the big strong guy and the new bully.


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## Backsticks (Jun 30, 2022)

Difficult seating plan for the Champions dinner come next April !


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2022)

Just an off the cuff thought. Imagine if the Saudi money had ‘bought’ the European Tour instead of creating the LIV Tour. With the attraction LIV has created, imagine if those players were joining the European Tour… it worked for Man City…


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. Imagine if the Saudi money had ‘bought’ the European Tour instead of creating the LIV Tour. With the attraction LIV has created, imagine if those players were joining the European Tour… it worked for Man City…
		
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Didn’t the Saudi money already try that but got turned down ?

And most of the players have already at some points played in ET events over the years 

But I would hope a major tour wouldn’t be paying £4mil to an Amatuer just to play in events


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn’t the Saudi money already try that but got turned down ?

And most of the players have already at some points played in ET events over the years

But I would hope a major tour wouldn’t be paying £4mil to an Amatuer just to play in events
		
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My question was more hypothetical, i.e. imagine if it *had* bought the ET. It worked for Man City… imagine *all *of those players turning up to the same event, not just the odd few that the ET paid to come across.

I’m not fussed either way, but (thinking whimsically) it worked for City.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542084273162813440
😂😂😂


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			My question was more hypothetical, i.e. imagine if it *had* bought the ET. It worked for Man City… imagine *all *of those players turning up to the same event, not just the odd few that the ET paid to come across.

I’m not fussed either way, but (thinking whimsically) it worked for City.
		
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The Football analogy doesn't work. Buying City is more equivalent to buying an individual player. Buying the ET is more like buying the entire Premiere League.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Just watched the start of the Liv Portland event.
No doubt that it has stepped up massively since the London event with considerably more recognisable faces..

Also being in the USA with nicer weather looks better

Feels more like a proper tournament, unlike London that had a lot of players nobody knew.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Just watched the start of the Liv Portland event.
No doubt that it has stepped up massively since the London event with considerably more recognisable faces..

Also being in the USA with nicer weather looks better

Feels more like a proper tournament, unlike London that had a lot of players nobody knew.
		
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The pictures being shown on social media look like the crowds are very sparse - wonder if that’s because of the incident in the area


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## Depreston (Jun 30, 2022)

Not many watching yet like


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The pictures being shown on social media look like the crowds are very sparse - wonder if that’s because of the incident in the area
		
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Crowds are not massive for sure but the marquee groups, Brooks group, BDC group, Mickleson group have most of the gallery


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Crowds are not massive for sure but the marquee groups, Brooks group, BDC group, Mickleson group have most of the gallery
		
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Those are the pictures - if they are most of the gallery then that’s not great , looked like about 10 people watching BDC putt


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

Who are the commentary team here? (Watching on YouTube.) One of them sounds like a young Butch Harmon.


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## Junior (Jun 30, 2022)

I've just watched 2 minutes of it.  I don't know which American was commentating but he was describing an incident on the practise ground this morning where Matt Jones shouted over to Richard Bland "they've put a wheelchair over there for you", Richard Bland replied with a hand jesters and the crowd laughed.  

The commentators went on to cheesily say how this sort of camaraderie is what the tours is about and that the guys there are now friends for life now blah blah blah 😫 🤮


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2022)

Looks like plenty of people but hey, if you want to watch with fingers over your eyes 👀. LIV won't mind the comments, if you are watching how few spectators there are then you are still watching the stream.......

Commentators need to calm down with the tub thumping. I think they have had too many Haribo's and are a bit excitable.


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2022)

Plenty of people there for a day 1.

I’ve been to a good few ET comps in mainland Europe…sometimes there might be as many as 10 spectators on a hole. Whilst I neither support or disagree with the LIV tour, some of the negativity is about as accurate as a dead rat with a bazooka.


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## Bdill93 (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The pictures being shown on social media look like the crowds are very sparse - wonder if that’s because of the incident in the area
		
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Not exactly a stacked crowd at the John Deere either… I’ve been watching an empty course all evening


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Those are the pictures - if they are most of the gallery then that’s not great , looked like about 10 people watching BDC putt
		
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There are some decent crowds for some groups. 
Must remember It's only the 2nd ever event at the end of the day.
It's going to take a lot of time and more players to move across before they can dream of the crowds the PGA Tour gets. 

I like having the caddies microphoned up so you can listen to the conversations.
The announcers arnt great but it may be that we're just not used to them.
The coverage is pretty good, see lots of shots not just putts


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

Amount of spectators seems ok compared to 'normal' tournaments - until the fact that there are no grandstands (well, none that 've seen yet). That would give the impression of considerably more when compared to normal tour events.
Whole broadcast seems to be a bit 'rushed' switching from player to player far quicker than normal. I'm not a fan of that. Commentators are pushing the 'team' concept which is bollocks imo as there's nothing 'teamy' about it. I do like the mic in the hole innovation though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Not exactly a stacked crowd at the John Deere either… I’ve been watching an empty course all evening
		
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I’m guessing they haven’t spent £100mil plus on players just to play though 🤷‍♂️


TheBigDraw said:



			There are some decent crowds for some groups.
Must remember It's only the 2nd ever event at the end of the day.
It's going to take a lot of time and more players to move across before they can dream of the crowds the PGA Tour gets.

I like having the caddies microphoned up so you can listen to the conversations.
The announcers arnt great but it may be that we're just not used to them.
The coverage is pretty good, see lots of shots not just putts
		
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When the players are offering free tickets to everyone they can and there are still small crowds that could maybe say that whilst the players are happy to ignore where the money comes from the fans don’t - even more so with the story about the local killed 

It’s still essential a very rich exhibition comp and not sure if that will change


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing they haven’t spent £100mil plus on players just to play though 🤷‍♂️


When the players are offering free tickets to everyone they can and there are still small crowds that could maybe say that whilst the players are happy to ignore where the money comes from the fans don’t - even more so with the story about the local killed 

It’s still essential a very rich exhibition comp and not sure if that will change
		
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Time will tell, so hard to predict.

Fully expect their field to strengthen again before their next event.
Reports say more top players are waiting till after the open before they go.

As little as 6 months ago its was being reported Liv was dead in the water and now it has plenty of credible names.

Like it or loathe it every player has his $$ number and it's a number the PGA Tour can't afford.
You can bet your bottom dollar plenty of players on the PGA Tour will be asking the LIV guys about the Portland experience.

Right now I can only see LIV getting stronger with their super aggressive recruiting policy and their chequebook


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

Quite enjoying the LIV coverage. No adverts is nice, and there's always something going on. The commentators are pretty dumb though to be honest, not a fan of them. Shame I'll probably be going to bed before it finishes.


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing they haven’t spent £100mil plus on players just to play though 🤷‍♂️


When the players are offering free tickets to everyone they can and there are still small crowds that could maybe say that whilst the players are happy to ignore where the money comes from the fans don’t - even more so with the story about the local killed

It’s still essential a very rich exhibition comp and not sure if that will change
		
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Not sure your comment on players giving out free tickets is a particularly valid comment. How many players do you think have friends and family living either close enough to the event or are willing to take holidays and travel at all or even for the final round.

As for the “very rich exhibition comp,” comment, is it a comp or an exhibition match? And how would you class the Masters with half the field being has-beens and pointless invites?

If you want to debate the morality of where the money comes from, fine I’m with you on that, but the rest of your argument is weak nitpicking.


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Still not feeling this team aspect to LIV.
Not bothered about the names TBH. 

There is something there as a new dynamic for pro golf coverage but its not there right now.

Maybe they should actually play together as teams for the 1st 2 days.


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## Foxholer (Jun 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Still not feeling this team aspect to LIV.
Not bothered about the names TBH.

There is something there as a new dynamic for pro golf coverage but its not there right now.

*Maybe they should actually play together as teams for the 1st 2 days.*

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Except there's 4 in each of the 12 team! Plus 6 non-teamers which is naff!

It's just a manipulation that they are promoting - pushing even, by how much the commentators are referring to it - as 'unique'. But, as you say, isn't really there!


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## TheBigDraw (Jun 30, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Except there's 4 in each of the 12 team! Plus 6 non-teamers which is naff!

It's just a manipulation that they are promoting - pushing even, by how much the commentators are referring to it - as 'unique'. But, as you say, isn't really there!
		
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Needs rethinking but there is an embryo of a good idea.


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## Orikoru (Jun 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Still not feeling this team aspect to LIV.
Not bothered about the names TBH. 

There is something there as a new dynamic for pro golf coverage but its not there right now.

Maybe they should actually play together as teams for the 1st 2 days.
		
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I reckon team kits is the way forward. 😁


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I reckon team kits is the way forward. 😁
		
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Team name on the back of caddy bib is enough (please/thanks).
As I posted before, a gimmick they are trying to turn into a USP. Doesn't work imo. The YouTube broadcast works much better, even though it was forced by lack of a recognised broadcaster.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 1, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Re: viewing figures - 100k plus for the Youtube UK channel, difficult to know if that's success or not.  Better than some predicted, but for the money involved, the global figures will be of more interest; like Netflix I suspect LIV will keep this quiet initially.

I think a 2.15pm start on a Thursday and Friday is a hard sell to a UK audience; most golf fans (not all) will be at work and may not be able to access the coverage; Finishing on a Saturday also means some golf fans will miss out as they are playing golf.

As live streams go, Sky are offering the Curtis Cup, Scandi Mixed and the Canadian - total audience of 2.5k (2.1k + 200 + 200) vs 43k watching LIV.... although there could be a few 100k watching SKY on actual TV in the UK so the comparison isn't really like for like.   I think at this stage it appears as if there's room for both the PGA Tour and LIV without either throwing their toys out of the pram.  The Asian Tour will have more say in the coming months; the DPWT is probably done unless they decide to break their alliance with the PGA Tour and talk to LIV about memberships and releases.
		
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Just to try and gauge some sort of difference from Centruion to Portland, the day 1 live stream from the latter has had 441 thousand views. Conclusion - it’s growing.


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## woofers (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Except there's 4 in each of the 12 team! Plus 6 non-teamers which is naff!
		
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Really? Are you sure ?


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## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just to try and gauge some sort of difference from Centruion to Portland, the day 1 live stream from the latter has had 441 thousand views. Conclusion - it’s growing.
View attachment 43254

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It may well grow but I’d hardly call the figures from day 1 at Portland ‘v’ the first event as conclusive.

As an aside, I wonder how many of those that decry the “dirty” Saudi money have watched their team play Man City etc, or will be watching the World Cup later this year broadcast from another country with a similar regime? The Middle East has something the rest of the world needs, and that’s oil. Western govts will pay lip service to the demands for regime change. Bodies through the front gate will have little bearing on the next few months of LIV but it will be interesting to see what sponsorship it generates, if that’s a business goal.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

And seriously, can anyone ever see a sports headline like 'Majestics surge into lead after superb 201' ?
Its a useful litmus test for sport versus nonsense - if the papers arent reporting the team event as sports news of interest to golf fans, then it isnt serious sport.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

LIV already has all the sponsorship it needs - Saudi. Sponsors pay money for positive association. The Saudis are paying it to buy positive association with golfers worldwide.
But there is no positive association to be had from sponsoring LIV. Only negative. Marketing vice-presidents know better than to shoot themselves in the foot


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure your comment on players giving out free tickets is a particularly valid comment. How many players do you think have friends and family living either close enough to the event or are willing to take holidays and travel at all or even for the final round.

As for the “very rich exhibition comp,” comment, is it a comp or an exhibition match? And how would you class the Masters with half the field being has-beens and pointless invites?

If you want to debate the morality of where the money comes from, fine I’m with you on that, but the rest of your argument is weak nitpicking.
		
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they are offering free tickets to everyone and anyone on social media and through local golf clubs because the can’t get people through the gates with the paid tickets just as they did with the Centurion event. Not sure what it’s got to do with friends and family travelling but I don’t recall many times players offering free tickets for Tour events

And “half the field” at the Masters being “has beens and pointless invites” ? Really ? That’s not true is it when most of the field is - the top 50 in the world , recent winners on the pga tour , recent major winners and finishes in the recent majors

There is a handful of ex winners which could be called has been  - the likes of  Lyle , Mize etc then a handful of Amatuers- winners of the recent Big Am comps


So yes I would call it a rich exhibition as at the end of the comp all they win is a lot of money


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## woofers (Jul 1, 2022)

The slight difference with the comparison to football activities and the World Cup is that we know the Qataris bought the World Cup via corrupt dealings with members of the discredited FIFA organisation, and also football is a team sport where, I believe, the player is NOT an independent contractor and therefore has limited choice as to where he plays. The golfers keep banging on about being independent contractors, they therefore have every opportunity to decide where to play and whose money to take. Whether there is a comparison to made between Greg Norman / LIV and the Qataris, I leave open.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 1, 2022)

As soon as the DP World Tour aligned with the PGA Tour It was inevitable that we were heading to the courts at some point over all this one one or both sides of the pond. 

Im guessing they have taken legal advice and been told they have a leg to stand on before taking this action.

https://www.skysports.com/golf/news...h-legal-action-unless-sanctions-are-rescinded


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			The slight difference with the comparison to football activities and the World Cup is that we know the Qataris bought the World Cup via corrupt dealings with members of the discredited FIFA organisation, and also football is a team sport where, I believe, the player is NOT an independent contractor and therefore has limited choice as to where he plays. The golfers keep banging on about being independent contractors, they therefore have every opportunity to decide where to play and whose money to take. Whether there is a comparison to made between Greg Norman / LIV and the Qataris, I leave open.
		
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Indeed. The players seem to emphasise the 'independent' part of 'independent contractors' rather than the 'contractor' part, i.e. they have signed a contract. They don't contract event by event. If they did, they wouldn't need releases from the PGA Tour to play non-PGA Tour events, but they do because they have signed a contract that says they do.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			they are offering free tickets to everyone and anyone on social media and through local golf clubs because the can’t get people through the gates with the paid tickets just as they did with the Centurion event. Not sure what it’s got to do with friends and family travelling but I don’t recall many times players offering free tickets for Tour events

And “half the field” at the Masters being “has beens and pointless invites” ? Really ? That’s not true is it when most of the field is - the top 50 in the world , recent winners on the pga tour , recent major winners and finishes in the recent majors

There is a handful of ex winners which could be called has been  - the likes of  Lyle , Mize etc then a handful of Amatuers- winners of the recent Big Am comps


So yes I would call it a rich exhibition as at the end of the comp all they win is a lot of money
		
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Yes your right in saying right now all they win is a lot of money but its an unfair argument because for a title to gain prestige you need history, to gain history you need time.

It's only the 2nd event of a brand new tour trying to do something different. 
When you do something different to what people have always known in anything it always polarise's opinion but if you launch something new and it's the same as the old under a new brand then it's not new and it doesn't stand out. 

Everyone just needs to see how time judges this, it may disappear in 2 years or it may become the preeminent tour in the world. 
For me either of those 2 things could happen and whether people like it or not the latter is possible right now.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			It's only the 2nd event of a brand new tour trying to do something different.
		
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Different doesnt mean better. In this case, the 'difference', is pathetic nonsense, and as far as offering something different goes, shows a total failure to find a better difference.


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## timd77 (Jul 1, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			It may well grow but I’d hardly call the figures from day 1 at Portland ‘v’ the first event as conclusive.

As an aside, I wonder how many of those that decry the “dirty” Saudi money have watched their team play Man City etc, or will be watching the World Cup later this year broadcast from another country with a similar regime? The Middle East has something the rest of the world needs, and that’s oil. Western govts will pay lip service to the demands for regime change. Bodies through the front gate will have little bearing on the next few months of LIV but it will be interesting to see what sponsorship it generates, if that’s a business goal.
		
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What has watching my team play Man City got to do with it? Do the other teams have a choice who they play against?

As for the World Cup, as has already been pointed out, everyone knows about the corruption and has kicked off about it, but again, what are the individual FAs and fans meant to do about it?

Daft point to make that.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And seriously, can anyone ever see a sports headline like 'Majestics surge into lead after superb 201' ?
Its a useful litmus test for sport versus nonsense - if the papers arent reporting the team event as sports news of interest to golf fans, then it isnt serious sport.
		
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The final round in Miami is a team event. All the team results between Centurion and then, will determine the sports betting prices. While the teams may seem irrelevant now, as the series unfolds, the relevance will become more obvious. The teams are slowly gaining an identity, and I suspect many South African golf fans have already attached themselves to Stingers. It’s a new concept, it’s relatively alien to pro golf, but while I acknowledge it seems a weakness in the series at the moment, it won’t be by the time they all tee off in Miami.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Different doesnt mean better. In this case, the 'difference', is pathetic nonsense, and as far as offering something different goes, shows a total failure to find a better difference.
		
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That isn't a fact it is an opinion to which you are totally entitled to.

Plenty of others will agree with you but also there will be plenty of people who like or wants to see something different. 

I am currently keeping an open mind about the format but I have to say say I really enjoyed the coverage of the first round in Portland last night and it felt more like a proper golf event because there were far more recognisable marquee names than in the first round in London


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## Depreston (Jul 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just to try and gauge some sort of difference from Centruion to Portland, the day 1 live stream from the latter has had 441 thousand views. Conclusion - it’s growing.
View attachment 43254

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how is that then... i checked in a few times and it had 40k- 60k viewers watching


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 1, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. The players seem to emphasise the 'independent' part of 'independent contractors' rather than the 'contractor' part, i.e. they have signed a contract. They don't contract event by event. If they did, they wouldn't need releases from the PGA Tour to play non-PGA Tour events, but they do because they have signed a contract that says they do.
		
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Players who have signed LIV contracts will also have a set of "rules" to stick to.  The difference between the two is we broadly know  the PGAT rules,  doubt LIV will be so up front.  Not sure I'd be wanting to break my contract with LIV under any circumstances,  I could only guess of the consequences.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The final round in Miami is a team event. All the team results between Centurion and then, will determine the sports betting prices. While the teams may seem irrelevant now, as the series unfolds, the relevance will become more obvious. The teams are slowly gaining an identity, and I suspect many South African golf fans have already attached themselves to Stingers. It’s a new concept, it’s relatively alien to pro golf, but while I acknowledge it seems a weakness in the series at the moment, it won’t be by the time they all tee off in Miami.
		
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As it unfolds, and more and more golfers have played for any given team, does it not become more and more nonsensical. There is no team identity. How many players will have played for how many different teams ? Are they all winners ? So it doesnt matter what team name wins in Miami - if 30 players have player for the winning team over the series, half the field 'wins'.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Not sure I'd be wanting to break my contract with LIV under any circumstances,  I could only guess of the consequences.
		
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And they are scary mofos apparently.


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## Depreston (Jul 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			As it unfolds, and more and more golfers have played for any given team, does it not become more and more nonsensical. There is no team identity. How many players will have played for how many different teams ? Are they all winners ? So it doesnt matter what team name wins in Miami - if 30 players have player for the winning team over the series, have the field 'wins'.
		
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the last event is centred around the teams be interesting to see if that happens


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## Bdill93 (Jul 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			they are offering free tickets to everyone and anyone on social media and through local golf clubs because the can’t get people through the gates with the paid tickets just as they did with the Centurion event. Not sure what it’s got to do with friends and family travelling but I don’t recall many times players offering free tickets for Tour events

And “half the field” at the Masters being “has beens and pointless invites” ? Really ? That’s not true is it when most of the field is - the top 50 in the world , recent winners on the pga tour , recent major winners and finishes in the recent majors

There is a handful of ex winners which could be called has been  - the likes of  Lyle , Mize etc then a handful of Amatuers- winners of the recent Big Am comps


So yes I would call it a rich exhibition as *at the end of the comp all they win is a lot of money*

Click to expand...

So the same as every PGA tour event too then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes your right in saying right now all they win is a lot of money but its an unfair argument because for a title to gain prestige you need history, to gain history you need time.

It's only the 2nd event of a brand new tour trying to do something different.
When you do something different to what people have always known in anything it always polarise's opinion but if you launch something new and it's the same as the old under a new brand then it's not new and it doesn't stand out.

Everyone just needs to see how time judges this, it may disappear in 2 years or it may become the preeminent tour in the world.
For me either of those 2 things could happen and whether people like it or not the latter is possible right now.
		
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These events won’t gain that prestige or any history because of the backdrop in the way they have been created 

People are being handpicked and giving millions just to attend the competition- it’s not open to anyone , players can’t qualify , it’s a rich closed shop and it’s one without a key element- ranking points and it won’t be long before the players start to drop down the rankings 

So ultimately it’s all just about money , it’s not about something new or growing the game or anything against current tours - it’s a money grab by the players and money directly funded by the Saudi state - the same state that managed to get a guy out of Portland who it seems killed someone


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			So the same as every PGA tour event too then?
		
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Well clearly not 

At the end of the PGA tour event you gain ranking points for entry into other events , Fed Ex Cup , Ryder Cup , World Ranking , points towards keeping your tour card

And if you win - Tour exemptions and of course prestige of winning a PGA Tour event


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## Bdill93 (Jul 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well clearly not

At the end of the PGA tour event you gain ranking points for entry into other events , Fed Ex Cup , Ryder Cup , World Ranking , points towards keeping your tour card

And if you win - Tour exemptions and of course prestige of winning a PGA Tour event
		
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Lol, just wanted you to talk about ranking points again  

They dont care, they're earning buckets.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Lol, just wanted you to talk about ranking points again 

They dont care, they're earning buckets.
		
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Yes some won’t care because of the money - any player that wants to play in Majors , Ryder Cups etc will care hence why there will be a lot of the players who won’t go near LIV tour


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## Orikoru (Jul 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes some won’t care because of the money - any player that wants to play in Majors , Ryder Cups etc will care hence why there will be a lot of the players who won’t go near LIV tour
		
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I believe there will be a tipping point where enough people go over to LIV that the PGA Tour will have to rethink their position and bend a little bit to avoid weakening their product and the majors and Ryder Cup will have to do the same to avoid weakening their fields substantially.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Really? Are you sure ?
		
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The 6 missing out was an assumption, but certainly 12 teams of 4 (= 48, so a not unreasonable one).
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/liv-golf-explained-format-captains-teams-and-team-names


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just to try and gauge some sort of difference from Centruion to Portland, the day 1 live stream from the latter has had 441 thousand views. Conclusion - it’s growing.
		
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I wish I could get half that amount of SPIN on my shots into greens!

Of course it's 'growing'
1. It's in US where the population is
         a) close to 5 times the size of UK
         b) generally ignorant of/unconcerned about anything that happens outside US
         c) won't watch a live program timed to start in the middle of the night like Centurion was

Btw Good morning...How's sunny Oregon? Still dark I would guess right now.


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## woofers (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The 6 missing out was an assumption, but certainly 12 teams of 4 (= 48, so a not unreasonable one).
		
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Which 6 missing out? Where do you get that assumption from ? 
There are 9 players from the first event that have not got a game in the second event.
I think you and Bdill93 maybe confusing the fact that it’s 54 holes, not 54 players.
Even their crappy website confirms it’s 48 for each event.


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## 4LEX (Jul 1, 2022)

Regardless of where the money is from or the conduct of Greg Norman, I watched for a few hours last night with an open mind and let's be honest - the whole thing is a joke event as it stands. Poor atmosphere, no cutting edge, it's like a pre season friendly in football. The big names have already got their millions so don't need to even bother trying. It's just a rubbish standard of golf. 

I think they need to massively rethink the format both as a shotgun and change the team aspect. It's an invitational so they can get do whatever they want. To end up with the current format you've got to question those running it. If their market is YouTube then put some YouTubers in the field each week. I'd be more interested to see Rick Shiels playing with DJ or seeing Good Good there. Throw in some female players. Add a few local scratch players and see what they can shoot around a tour standard course from the same tees. Sprinkle a few celebs like Jordan or Bale too. Make it fun as it's not a serious golf tour as it stands.

The only highlight last night was G-Mac hacking it around like a 4 handicapper yet again. He speaks of 'growing the game', maybe he should try to sort his out first


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			Which 6 missing out? Where do you get that assumption from ?
There are 9 players from the first event that have not got a game in the second event.
I think you and Bdill93 maybe confusing the fact that it’s 54 holes, not 54 players.
Even their crappy website confirms it’s 48 for each event.
		
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Maybe - which would explain the lack of 'team' gaps on their leaderboard.
But it wasn't confusion with the 54 holes, but assumption from the Shotgun start and 3 players per hole. another '54' sign.
Are they only using 16 holes for the Shotgun start?
So 6 of their '54' player 'Roster' (or maybe more as my info was from Wiki, so likely not 'bang up to date') sit out each event.
Thanks for the correction.


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## rksquire (Jul 1, 2022)

Genuine question - has anyone, after 150ish pages of circular, ingrained arguments, actually had a change of opinion / feeling with regard any aspect of LIV?  If so, what?  Or if you were on the fence, why has your opinion now shifted?

Some positions are obviously so entrenched that it seems there is nothing any party (LIV, players, PGA Tour etc.) can do that wouldn't garner negativity.  For example, better treatment and payment for caddies even attracted negativity.  

I tuned into both PGA and LIV last night - I did watch LIV for longer, because I was genuinely more interested in the players participating.  At that stage the live viewing figure on Youtube UK was about 61k.  From using my eyes and not Trump's Inauguration Glasses or covering my left eye, crowds at both were much of a muchness.  Neither were sold out, both decent.  Commentary on Sky suggested the John Deere was sold out for the weekend (however tickets with free parking are still available for both Saturday & Sunday so why they said this I have no idea); tickets for Portland are available today but 'sold out' tomorrow (worth noting they've inflicted a more limited capacity).  I can't honestly say I 'enjoyed' either event last night - in fact, I did enjoy the Irish Open much more because it is a course I've played and it's nice to see Harrington & Power doing well.


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## Orikoru (Jul 1, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Regardless of where the money is from or the conduct of Greg Norman, I watched for a few hours last night with an open mind and let's be honest - the whole thing is a joke event as it stands. Poor atmosphere, no cutting edge, it's like a pre season friendly in football. The big names have already got their millions so don't need to even bother trying. It's just a rubbish standard of golf.

I think they need to massively rethink the format both as a shotgun and change the team aspect. It's an invitational so they can get do whatever they want. To end up with the current format you've got to question those running it. If their market is YouTube then put some YouTubers in the field each week. I'd be more interested to see Rick Shiels playing with DJ or seeing Good Good there. Throw in some female players. Add a few local scratch players and see what they can shoot around a tour standard course from the same tees. *Sprinkle a few celebs like Jordan* or Bale too. Make it fun as it's not a serious golf tour as it stands.

The only highlight last night was G-Mac hacking it around like a 4 handicapper yet again. He speaks of 'growing the game', maybe he should try to sort his out first 

Click to expand...

I think she's too busy fighting her latest driving ban at the moment.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 1, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I think she's too busy fighting her latest driving ban at the moment.
		
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There is no doubt she'd sign up to LIV in a heartbeat if she was asked. They'd even pay for her own chauffer


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## Depreston (Jul 1, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Genuine question - has anyone, after 150ish pages of circular, ingrained arguments, actually had a change of opinion / feeling with regard any aspect of LIV?  If so, what?  Or if you were on the fence, why has your opinion now shifted?

Some positions are obviously so entrenched that it seems there is nothing any party (LIV, players, PGA Tour etc.) can do that wouldn't garner negativity.  For example, better treatment and payment for caddies even attracted negativity. 

I tuned into both PGA and LIV last night - I did watch LIV for longer, because I was genuinely more interested in the players participating.  At that stage the live viewing figure on Youtube UK was about 61k.  From using my eyes and not Trump's Inauguration Glasses or covering my left eye, crowds at both were much of a muchness.  Neither were sold out, both decent.  Commentary on Sky suggested the John Deere was sold out for the weekend (however tickets with free parking are still available for both Saturday & Sunday so why they said this I have no idea); tickets for Portland are available today but 'sold out' tomorrow (worth noting they've inflicted a more limited capacity).  I can't honestly say I 'enjoyed' either event last night - in fact, I did enjoy the Irish Open much more because it is a course I've played and it's nice to see Harrington & Power doing well.
		
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I thought it might be a bit Stanford 20/20 but it's clear to see that it's here to stay at least until the Saudis are happy to bank roll it. 

Its very interesting more so around who will stay who will leave what will the tours do and the majors etc... the events themselves though i won't be watching as i don't agree with a "state" being able to buy a sport let alone it being Saudi Arabia. I also didn't like the structure or broadcast of the centurion event it's not how i like to watch golf.


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## woofers (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Are they only using 16 holes for the Shotgun start?
So 6 of their '54' player 'Roster' (or maybe more as my info was from Wiki, so likely not 'bang up to date') sit out each event.
Thanks for the correction.
		
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No problem. I believe only 16 holes are used for the start.
Unsure about the ‘ Roster’, with 48 players from the first event and 9 new ones at Portland, that’s a total of 57 now.
Then there’s talk of more players joining, so I wonder what the maximum ‘pool’ could be?
Also, who determines who gets a game? Is it a case of sign up and we guarantee, say 4 or 5 from 8? Or who doesn’t want to travel outside the USA, which will curtail numbers, but not ‘grow the game’?
Will the 9 dropped from Centurion get another game, or have to count their dollars and hope another tour will allow them in?
It could end up like joining a new golf club and finding out you can’t get a game because all the tee times are booked.


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

Pelley has come out punching:

_“There has been a leak to the media of a letter we received on behalf of a number of LIV Golf players which contains so many inaccuracies that it cannot remain unchallenged.

“Before joining LIV Golf, players knew there would be consequences if they chose money over competition. Many of them at the time understood and accepted that. Indeed, as one player named in the letter said in a media interview earlier this year; ‘If they ban me, they ban me.’ It is not credible that some are now surprised with the actions we have taken.

“The letter claims that these players ‘care deeply’ for the DP World Tour. An analysis of the past participation statistics on our Tour in recent years of several of the leading players named, suggests otherwise.

“One player in particular named in the note has only played six Rolex Series events in the past five years. Another one, only four. I wish many of them had been as keen to play on our Tour then as they seem to be now, based on the fact they have either resigned their membership of the PGA TOUR or, if they are still in membership, have been suspended indefinitely.

“Furthermore, given how deeply these players say they care about the DP World Tour, perhaps some of them could have played in Ireland this week in support of our new title sponsor, in particular one player who gave us a signed commitment to play at Mount Juliet.

“With that player currently in action at Pumpkin Ridge, you can imagine the allegation in the letter that we are in the wrong, is hard to accept.

“We also take great exception to an allegation made near the end of the letter which states we are somehow playing ‘second fiddle’ to the PGA TOUR. Nothing could be further from the truth.

“We held a player meeting in Ireland on Tuesday where we outlined in great detail all the many benefits of our expanded relationship with the PGA TOUR.

“One of those is an unprecedented ten cards on offer to the PGA TOUR, cards that many of the players named in this letter desperately wanted to attain in the early stages of their careers. Why now be critical of those trying to do the same?

“The letter also expresses supposed concern about the future of the DP World Tour. Rest assured no-one should have any worries on that score.

“The DP World Tour is a vibrant, independent and global Tour with increasing and guaranteed prize fund growth over the next five years. We have fantastic tournaments across the year including a host of wonderful national Opens, all played in front of huge crowds, illustrated perfectly by this week’s Horizon Irish Open.

“Finally, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on any potential legal matters.

“I will simply reiterate that our Members’ Regulations which have been in force for more than 30 years, have been accepted by all the players, are there to protect all of our members, and we will use them to take all necessary steps to protect their interests.

“The sanctions for those members who knowingly broke our rules by playing at the Centurion Club without a release are proportionate, fair and, I believe, considered necessary by the majority of our members.”_


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

woofers said:



			No problem. I believe only 16 holes are used for the start.
Unsure about the ‘ Roster’, with 48 players from the first event and 9 new ones at Portland, that’s a total of 57 now.
Then there’s talk of more players joining, so I wonder what the maximum ‘pool’ could be?
Also, who determines who gets a game? Is it a case of sign up and we guarantee, say 4 or 5 from 8? Or who doesn’t want to travel outside the USA, which will curtail numbers, but not ‘grow the game’?
Will the 9 dropped from Centurion get another game, or have to count their dollars and hope another tour will allow them in?
It could end up like joining a new golf club and finding out you can’t get a game because all the tee times are booked.
		
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It all rather 'cheapens'/makes less relevant the '54' emphasis by the group - now simply on the number of holes played.
I'm sure those left out will appreciate the even greater free time!


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## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			they are offering free tickets to everyone and anyone on social media and through local golf clubs because the can’t get people through the gates with the paid tickets just as they did with the Centurion event. Not sure what it’s got to do with friends and family travelling but I don’t recall many times players offering free tickets for Tour events

And “half the field” at the Masters being “has beens and pointless invites” ? Really ? That’s not true is it when most of the field is - the top 50 in the world , recent winners on the pga tour , recent major winners and finishes in the recent majors

There is a handful of ex winners which could be called has been  - the likes of  Lyle , Mize etc then a handful of Amatuers- winners of the recent Big Am comps


So yes I would call it a rich exhibition as at the end of the comp all they win is a lot of money
		
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Your post I quoted only said players were giving out tickets. Glad we agree it’s a competition with prize money at the end of it. Quite what it finally morphs into, we’ll see.

Funny how so many on here, and elsewhere, say the Masters isn’t a proper comp but suddenly elevate it to satisfy their argument… and also decry the skewed ranking points allocation between the PGA Tour and the ET but all that is suddenly forgotten.

As I said previously, I’m not overly fussed.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 1, 2022)

LIV Golf Players Letter:

_We would implore you, the custodians of the DP World Tour, to reconsider your recent penalties and sanctions and instead focus our energies on forging a path forward.

If not you will leave us no choice but to employ the various other means and methods at our disposal to rectify these wrongs._

Given their previous history, I presume that the "other means and methods" won't be legal action...


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## D-S (Jul 1, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Genuine question - has anyone, after 150ish pages of circular, ingrained arguments, actually had a change of opinion / feeling with regard any aspect of LIV?  If so, what?  Or if you were on the fence, why has your opinion now shifted?

Some positions are obviously so entrenched that it seems there is nothing any party (LIV, players, PGA Tour etc.) can do that wouldn't garner negativity.  For example, better treatment and payment for caddies even attracted negativity.

I tuned into both PGA and LIV last night - I did watch LIV for longer, because I was genuinely more interested in the players participating.  At that stage the live viewing figure on Youtube UK was about 61k.  From using my eyes and not Trump's Inauguration Glasses or covering my left eye, crowds at both were much of a muchness.  Neither were sold out, both decent.  Commentary on Sky suggested the John Deere was sold out for the weekend (however tickets with free parking are still available for both Saturday & Sunday so why they said this I have no idea); tickets for Portland are available today but 'sold out' tomorrow (worth noting they've inflicted a more limited capacity).  I can't honestly say I 'enjoyed' either event last night - in fact, I did enjoy the Irish Open much more because it is a course I've played and it's nice to see Harrington & Power doing well.
		
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The demand (and threats of legal action) from the LIV players to play on the DP World tour, despite their obvious support in building a potential rival solely to line their own pockets has made me now side more with the DP World Tour and against the LIV players whereas I was previously ambivalent and just an interested spectator. This change of mindset has nothing to do with reading the increasingly entrenched opinions on this thread.
I am sad to see a lot of money being poured into golf and all of it (so far) ending up concentrated  on players of the past and ‘personalities’. To think of what good this money could have done rather than just sit in the stuffed bank accounts of the already very rich, such a shame.


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			LIV Golf Players Letter:

_We would implore you, the custodians of the DP World Tour, to reconsider your recent penalties and sanctions and instead focus our energies on forging a path forward._

_If not you will leave us no choice but to employ the various other means and methods at our disposal to rectify these wrongs._

Given their previous history, I presume that the "other means and methods" won't be legal action... 

Click to expand...

As far as legal action is concerned, I assume that, as most US entities do, the lawyers made sure their tax exempt status and relationship with players was copper bottomed and bullet-proof, and they are confident of defending the case.

However, US law being as it is, if someone with bottomless pockets chooses a jurisdiction which is friendly to their side, e.g. in this case a Trump-appointed judge, they may be able to force the other party to settle to avoid endless rounds of litigation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Your post I quoted only said players were giving out tickets. Glad we agree it’s a competition with prize money at the end of it. Quite what it finally morphs into, we’ll see.

Funny how so many on here, and elsewhere, say the Masters isn’t a proper comp but suddenly elevate it to satisfy their argument… and also decry the skewed ranking points allocation between the PGA Tour and the ET but all that is suddenly forgotten.

As I said previously, I’m not overly fussed.
		
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Yes the players are giving out free tickets across social media - just as they did in the first event

And I don’t think people say the Masters isn’t a proper competition but there have been discussions about it being a major because of the size of the field and “invites” but it’s certainly a proper comp and most certainly doesn’t have “half a field of has beens etc”

And yes the ranking points have favoured the PGA tour because the higher ranked players play there - the new Co sanctioned events will help increase the points on offer for some ET events


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Funny how so many on here, and elsewhere, say *the Masters isn’t a proper comp* but suddenly elevate it to satisfy their argument....
		
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I've never really got those with that attitude! Sure it's an 'invitation' event. But the qualification criteria for 'receiving an invite' are published and, as far as I know, have never been reneged upon. It's always been in the elite of tournaments and having a non-earning cut eliminates any 'weak' participants.

LIV's team concept virtually requires continued participation from all players. To me, it's a 'differentiating gimmick' that's being pushed excessively. The difference in winners share - Schwartzel's at Centurion - demonstrates _real_ emphasis is still on individual performance.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Ethan said:



			As far as legal action is concerned, I assume that, as most US entities do, the lawyers made sure their tax exempt status and relationship with players was copper bottomed and bullet-proof, and they are confident of defending the case.

However, US law being as it is, if someone with bottomless pockets chooses a jurisdiction which is friendly to their side, e.g. in this case a Trump-appointed judge, they may be able to force the other party to settle to avoid endless rounds of litigation.
		
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First question would be where has the alleged offence been committed, therefore where would any litigation be based. As The DP Tour is based at Wentworth and has little/no effective presence in US, English jurisdiction and law would prevail.


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## GB72 (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			First question would be where has the alleged offence been committed, therefore where would any litigation be based. As The DP Tour is based at Wentworth and has little/no effective presence in US, English jurisdiction and law would prevail.
		
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The contract will normally state which legal system has jurisdiction and under the laws of which country is was drafted.


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			First question would be where has the alleged offence been committed, therefore where would any litigation be based. As The DP Tour is based at Wentworth and has little/no effective presence in US, English jurisdiction and law would prevail.
		
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These guys want a dispute with the PGA Tour, though. Settling with them gives them everything they need, and DPWT will follow suit. Winning in the UK gives them nothing in the US. UK law is also less parochial and fickle than US law. I doubt the DPWT is doing anything indefensible.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

GB72 said:



			The contract will normally state which legal system has jurisdiction and under the laws of which country is was drafted.
		
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Agreed! And that'll almost certainly be 'UK'. I wonder which one LIV contracts specify - as 'sponsor' is actually in a position to change them!


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed! And that'll almost certainly be 'UK'. I wonder which one LIV contracts specify - as 'sponsor' is actually in a position to change them! 

Click to expand...

That is only an opening gambit. LIV Tour doesn't give a toss if GMac is able to play The Irish Open or is fined £100k. They want to see DJ or Bryson play Bay Hill with a LIV Tour hat on.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Ethan said:



			These guys want a dispute with the PGA Tour, though. Settling with them gives them everything they need, and DPWT will follow suit. Winning in the UK gives them nothing in the US. UK law is also less parochial and fickle than US law. I doubt the DPWT is doing anything indefensible.
		
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The post you quoted was about the DPWT though.
Action against The PGA Tour might come, but, given the only issue is future OWGR points, I'm not certain the players will care. I'm sure the suspensions/bans would have been checked for legality. They certainly couldn't be argued successfully as 'restraint of trade' imo!


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The post you quoted was about the DPWT though.
Action against The PGA Tour might come, but, given the only issue is future OWGR points, I'm not certain the players will care. I'm sure the suspensions/bans would have been checked for legality. They certainly couldn't be argued successfully as 'restraint of trade' imo!
		
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Sure, but I expect both PGA Tour and DPWT are on solid legal ground and this is sabre-rattling.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 1, 2022)

😁


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## IainP (Jul 1, 2022)

Observations & musings.
Looks like teams are starting to shape around counties, regions, language so maybe that is a loose aim. Like many am currently far from convinced on the concept but it does make me laugh seeing comments (elsewhere) about not understanding how it works - it's not difficult.
Regular tour events have alternates/reserves for drop outs  - so I had assumed some of the lower ranked players may be on contracts where they have a minimum number of starts but not expected to play all, to make sure they can always pull in to meet the number.
Looked in yesterday, seemed the sidebar leaderboard thingy was a bit improved. Seemed to me the shot volume was down a tad, but still up on regular tour. No ads still a bonus but that may be temporary of course.
Looked a pretty tough golf course. As mentioned by others the commentators need to pipe down some, although they did have a couple of decent moments.


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## rksquire (Jul 1, 2022)

Pelley's letter is a fantastic response and clears everything up nicely and meets the deadline for response.  Absolutely clears up exactly what rules have been broken.  And confirms the DPWT is not second fiddle to the PGA Tour whilst highlighting the routes out of the DPWT to the PGA Tour as being more easily accessible and quicker to achieve.  

He comes out swinging at certain 'named' individuals and rightly calls them on their lack of support for DPWT this past few years  (the irony being they've been busy chasing the big bucks elsewhere those past few years, but it's the bigger bucks now that means he feels he can call them on it!).

He is right, McDowell's absence is extremely disappointing from the Irish Open's POV.  But so, maybe more so, is McIroy's.  Doesn't McIlroy's membership regulation state he needs to participate in his 'home' Open?  Or is it a matter of McIlroy's confusing domicile status (NI / ROI / UK / USA?) that he's exempt from this?  Or are the supposed rules only applicable to LIV players?

Either way, some lawyers are about to receive some LIV sized stacks of cash!


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 1, 2022)

Listened to a podcast today where Hunter Mahan was a guest.

He said the word amongst the players is once Liv has attracted enough players for a strong enough field they will change their format to the below

- 72 Holes with a cut, top 54 players make cut. 
- All players missing the cut get a missed cut pay cheque
- Last 36 Holes at the weekend is shotgun start.
- Every event still has a huge purse that the PGA Tour can't compete with. 

He didn't mention if any team element is still involved. 

If that is true then the PGA Tour is in way more trouble than it already is...
That is a very strong offering that will appeal to a lot more players down the line ???


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## Jason.H (Jul 1, 2022)

I see Oliver Bekker is playing DP world this week and he played in the 1st LIV event. Also comparing today’s LIV and PGA entrants you’d think they had got them mixed up. I guess money does talk.


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## woofers (Jul 1, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			I see Oliver Bekker is playing DP world this week and he played in the 1st LIV event.
		
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As did Pablo Larrazabel who is also at Mount Juliet. The sanctions did not prevent them from playing in this event, and if LIV are / have paid the £100,000 fine, then so be it.


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## Backsticks (Jul 1, 2022)

As long as they dont change the team thing. It is just such garbage its funny, and it would be a pity to discard it or modify it away from the paragon of sporting nonsense that it is. If it went, it might look like LIV was getting its shit together


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 1, 2022)

Does anyone know the reason why they don't do a Friday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to Thursday to Saturday?


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 1, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Does anyone know the reason why they don't do a Friday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to Thursday to Saturday?
		
Click to expand...

No but it's a very good question 👍
Easier for spectators to go on a weekend..


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## Orikoru (Jul 1, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Does anyone know the reason why they don't do a Friday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to Thursday to Saturday?
		
Click to expand...

I dunno but if I'm going to stay up until 2am to watch it I'd rather do that on a Saturday than a Sunday!


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## ExRabbit (Jul 2, 2022)

I'm beginning to think that the other tours might start to get a bit worried.  

The way they are showing it may work better with younger watchers especially. 

It might not work as well when they have to get adverts to make it cost-effective though.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Does anyone know the reason why they don't do a Friday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to Thursday to Saturday?
		
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I think the remaining events are all Fri-Sun, barring Miami which is a 4 day event - finishing on the Sunday.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 2, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			It might not work as well when they have to get adverts to make it cost-effective though.
		
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With the hundreds of millions they're throwing around I'm not sure that being cost-effective is a major concern for them.


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## IainP (Jul 2, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Does anyone know the reason why they don't do a Friday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to Thursday to Saturday?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know but apart from the oodles of cash it has been about making the players (& caddies) lives cushier - so I assumed for that


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			I'm beginning to think that the other tours might start to get a bit worried. 

The way they are showing it may work better with younger watchers especially.

It might not work as well when they have to get adverts to make it cost-effective though.
		
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The return on investment will come through franchising the teams, that’s why I guess we’re seeing teams developing around countries - so the plan will be for these teams to be ‘bought’ and used to promote further sponsorships and revenues around those teams. Of course we could well see the series go down a conventional tv deal route, with the adverts etc.


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The return on investment will come through franchising the teams, that’s why I guess we’re seeing teams developing around countries - so the plan will be for these teams to be ‘bought’ and used to promote further sponsorships and revenues around those teams. Of course we could well see the series go down a conventional tv deal route, with the adverts etc.
		
Click to expand...

The flaw in that thinking, indicating the detachment from reality of those behind the idea, is that nobody supports golf teams. Golf is an individual game.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The flaw in that thinking, indicating the detachment from reality of those behind the idea, is that nobody supports golf teams. Golf is an individual game.
		
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Except it’s not is it.
Every golf club has scratch teams, Tigers, rabbits, seniors, juniors, ladies - the local unions then play as teams against other unions. Then they do that at county level etc, so basically, golf is very much a team game, except when people want to argue that the LIV team format is crap. 
That seems to be the argument?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543201747413475330


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Except it’s not is it.
Every golf club has scratch teams, Tigers, rabbits, seniors, juniors, ladies - the local unions then play as teams against other unions. Then they do that at county level etc, so basically, golf is very much a team game, except when people want to argue that the LIV team format is crap.
That seems to be the argument?
		
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Golf is not a team game at true professional level , Pro Golfers are standalone professionals and don’t represent “teams” 

There is no relevance with an Amatuer who is a member of a club who will have teams in friendlies or scratch leagues 

Professional golf is very much an individual sport - and multiple times people have tried to create some team comps and beyond the Ryder cup it’s not worked 

Saudi can try and create franchise teams but who the heck is going to buy a team when it’s such a money loss


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543201747413475330

Click to expand...

Can you not even see how crass that all is - it’s as embarrassing as Perez’s dollar shirt 
. At least DJ is too stupid to understand


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Except it’s not is it.
Every golf club has scratch teams, Tigers, rabbits, seniors, juniors, ladies - the local unions then play as teams against other unions. Then they do that at county level etc, so basically, golf is very much a team game, except when people want to argue that the LIV team format is crap.
That seems to be the argument?
		
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Yeah but its not something that garners any real level of dedicated fanbase. When was the last time you went to watch a handicap team play? Or even county teams at a higher level? Just because there are teams doesnt automatically mean that people will start following them. There's no history there or anything to give fans an attachment to them, and if players chop and change teams every event that's not likely to improve.

I quite like many aspects of LIV Golf  but the teams element feels so forced and cringeworthy.


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Except it’s not is it.
Every golf club has scratch teams, Tigers, rabbits, seniors, juniors, ladies - the local unions then play as teams against other unions. Then they do that at county level etc, so basically, golf is very much a team game, except when people want to argue that the LIV team format is crap.
That seems to be the argument?
		
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Your citing the playing of amateur club teams is a non sequitur. My statement that nobody *supports* golf teams is still valid.

Apart from the curio of the Ryder or Walker Cups for a once in two years intercontinental bonus for the real elite. Golf isnt like like the innately team sports which become identified and supported by their locality or country. Even the Davis Cup in tennis, with an integral national basis, is a dot compared to the overall following and playing of pro tennis. Magicing teams out of thin air for a sport that is not a team sport, indicates thinking coming from people who dont understand golf, or who are just pitching halfbaked brainstorm ideas that should never have got further than the white board. The weekly evolving, nothing linking the players, make up of the teams further confirms the lack of any coherent idea.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you not even see how crass that all is - it’s as embarrassing as Perez’s dollar shirt
. At least DJ is too stupid to understand
		
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No Phil, I watch it, think of all the salty folk on here and elsewhere who want to see the early demise of the LIV series - who only want ‘conventional golf’ and I laugh at the DGAF attitude that these guys are showing. 👍


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Your citing the playing of amateur club teams is a non sequitur. My statement that nobody *supports* golf teams is still valid.

Apart from the curio of the Ryder or Walker Cups for a once in two years intercontinental bonus for the real elite. Golf isnt like like the innately team sports which become identified and supported by their locality or country. Even the Davis Cup in tennis, with an integral national basis, is a dot compared to the overall following and playing of pro tennis. Magicing teams out of thin air for a sport that is not a team sport, indicates thinking coming from people who dont understand golf, or who are just pitching halfbaked brainstorm ideas that should never have got further than the white board. The weekly evolving, nothing linking the players, make up of the teams further confirms the lack of any coherent idea.
		
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Change is bad eh?
They’ve filled a gap then haven’t they, golfers play golf as teams at amateur level, and it’s usually a great way to participate in the sport. The Ryder Cup, Walker Cup, Solheim cup etc all generate considerable interest. 
You’d think that somebody would have spotted the opportunity earlier tbh.


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Change is bad eh?
		
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You appear to be making up statement I am not making now. I have not claimed change is bad.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No Phil, I watch it, think of all the salty folk on here and elsewhere who want to see the early demise of the LIV series - who only want ‘conventional golf’ and I laugh at the DGAF attitude that these guys are showing. 👍
		
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And why is it you think that they don’t care ?

Maybe it’s all the blood money they are getting - but then a number of players have clearly shown they don’t care where it’s from as long as they get rich . 


Mel Smooth said:



			Change is bad eh?
They’ve filled a gap then haven’t they, golfers play golf as teams at amateur level, and it’s usually a great way to participate in the sport. The Ryder Cup, Walker Cup, Solheim cup etc all generate considerable interest.
You’d think that somebody would have spotted the opportunity earlier tbh.
		
Click to expand...

You do know that other team events have been tried ? 

6’s
Vivendi 
Seve Trophy 
World Cup 

guess how many are still going ?

The likes of the Ryder Cup and Solhiem generate interest because of the history and the two teams involved - The Walker Cup is a pinnacle of Am golf


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			You appear to be making up statement I am not making now. I have not claimed change is bad.
		
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A sentence with a question mark at the end isn’t a statement, it’s a question. Thanks for answering it. 👍


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And why is it you think that they don’t care ?

Maybe it’s all the blood money they are getting - but then a number of players have clearly shown they don’t care where it’s from as long as they get rich .


You do know that other team events have been tried ?

6’s
Vivendi
Seve Trophy
World Cup

guess how many are still going ?

The likes of the Ryder Cup and Solhiem generate interest because of the history and the two teams involved - The Walker Cup is a pinnacle of Am golf
		
Click to expand...

Now we’re on the final day of Portland Phil, have your views altered at all on the prospective future of the series, or, do still feel it will fail and fail quickly?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Now we’re on the final day of Portland Phil, have your views altered at all on the prospective future of the series, or, do still feel it will fail and fail quickly?
		
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why would my views of changed ? 

It’s just a rich exhibition and one funded by blood money in the aid of sport washing 

I find the attitude of the players crass but then it’s no surprise with the players they have managed to entice - none of them have gone there to grow the game or get new people into the sport - it’s a pure money grab 


And yes I do think ultimately it will fizzle away 

Looks like the Aussies are going to support the ET and PGA Tour

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/w...44NGLCw1LsqjuMIte3rTZAHnCON6pIA0Cyfh1SCKCyaIQ

looking very unlikely that ranking points will be awarded - and think it’s laughable that you believe it will be franchise teams and that people will actually buy the teams


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			why would my views of changed ?

It’s just a rich exhibition and one funded by blood money in the aid of sport washing

I find the attitude of the players crass but then it’s no surprise with the players they have managed to entice - none of them have gone there to grow the game or get new people into the sport - it’s a pure money grab


And yes I do think ultimately it will fizzle away

Looks like the Aussies are going to support the ET and PGA Tour

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/w...44NGLCw1LsqjuMIte3rTZAHnCON6pIA0Cyfh1SCKCyaIQ

looking very unlikely that ranking points will be awarded - and think it’s laughable that you believe it will be franchise teams and that people will actually buy the teams
		
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The plan has always been to franchise the teams, why would that be laughable?
The teams are generating a value from day 1 of Centurion, hence the importance of team members, team drafts, and team results. There are reports today that they will have a secure 48 player field next year, 14 events, and the introduction of team franchises. I don’t just make stuff up mate, the info is all out there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The plan has always been to franchise the teams, why would that be laughable?
The teams are generating a value from day 1 of Centurion, hence the importance of team members, team drafts, and team results. There are reports today that they will have a secure 48 player field next year, 14 events, and the introduction of team franchises. I don’t just make stuff up mate, the info is all out there.
		
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how long do you think it will be before they stop having to pay players to play in the events ? Any golf name that is playing is only doing so because of guarantee money in their pocket ? Are Saudi Arabia just going to keep paying these players ? 

Who do you expect will buy these fantasy franchise teams ? And do you think these people will continue to just pay players to turn up ? 

And as for the players - when they get paid to turn up what is then their motivation? They have already got their money 

And without ranking points what players do you think they will attract in the future when they don’t have access to get into the majors ? 

There is no Telly deal , very limited if any sponsership - the whole thing is stood up by the state of Saudi Arabia - unless they get the cream of the crop when will they just stop


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2022)

It's still largely folk who are on the back 9 of their careers and folk noone knows. 

We don't need this sideshow


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			how long do you think it will be before they stop having to pay players to play in the events ? Any golf name that is playing is only doing so because of guarantee money in their pocket ? Are Saudi Arabia just going to keep paying these players ?

Who do you expect will buy these fantasy franchise teams ? And do you think these people will continue to just pay players to turn up ?

And as for the players - when they get paid to turn up what is then their motivation? They have already got their money

And without ranking points what players do you think they will attract in the future when they don’t have access to get into the majors ?

There is no Telly deal , very limited if any sponsership - the whole thing is stood up by the state of Saudi Arabia - unless they get the cream of the crop when will they just stop
		
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If you read this, it will possibly answer most of your questions. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoz...lace-among-worlds-most-valuable-sports-teams/


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you read this, it will possibly answer most of your questions.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoz...lace-among-worlds-most-valuable-sports-teams/

Click to expand...

🤷‍♂️ That’s the IPL ? A competition within a team sport and teams owned by Indian Businessmen and women - It’s not relevant

How does it answer anything I asked


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 2, 2022)

Very interesting to hear that 40% of the PGA Tours sponsors heavily rely on business with or are invested in by Saudi Arabia. 

Based on the strong stance of the PGA Tour against Liv being mainly the source of the money do we think Jay Monaghan will now say to these sponsors 
"Sorry we can't accept your sponsorship money any more" 
I very much doubt it, very much the opposite as he will now be asking them for more money to increase the purses. 

So Liv is sponsored directly by and the PGA Tour is sponsored partly indirectly by Saudi Arabia. 

Where is the line drawn? 
I've no idea 🙈

If the PGA Tours main objection to the liv tour is the source of the money then I can't see how they can accept money in directly from the same source? 

Otherwise isnt there is a slight stench of hypocrisy.??


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## D-S (Jul 2, 2022)

Surely the idea of teams is purely a construct for the Sports Betting industry, which is really now taking off in the USA. This just providers gamblers with a different option and can be marketed as such.
Trying to justify it via franchise sports arguments or gainsay it is as not wanted by golf fans is a waste of time (and posts).


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



*Very interesting to hear that 40% of the PGA Tours sponsors heavily rely on business with or are invested in by Saudi Arabia.*

Based on the strong stance of the PGA Tour against Liv being mainly the source of the money do we think Jay Monaghan will now say to these sponsors
"Sorry we can't accept your sponsorship money any more"
I very much doubt it, very much the opposite as he will now be asking them for more money to increase the purses.

So Liv is sponsored directly by and the PGA Tour is sponsored partly indirectly by Saudi Arabia.

Where is the line drawn?
I've no idea 🙈

If the PGA Tours main objection to the liv tour is the source of the money then I can't see how they can accept money in directly from the same source?

Otherwise isnt there is a slight stench of hypocrisy.??
		
Click to expand...

sorry can you expand on the highlighted bit ?

It’s a statement but it need substance surely?

Which companies are we talking about here ? And how are the PGA Tour getting money from PIF 

Do PIF sponsor any PGA event ?  

I know they sponsored a ET event until this year when it became an Asian Tour event but  I didn’t know they sponsored any event on the PGA tour ?


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If the PGA Tours main objection to the liv tour is the source of the money then I can't see how they can accept money in directly from the same source?

Otherwise isnt there is a slight stench of hypocrisy.??
		
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There isnt. Because the PGA Tour's main objection is not the source of the money. Its that LIV is competition for its existence.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 2, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535728591144640514
This was after the first tournament in London.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry can you expand on the highlighted bit ?

It’s a statement but it need substance surely?

Which companies are we talking about here ? And how are the PGA Tour getting money from PIF

Do PIF sponsor any PGA event ? 

I know they sponsored a ET event until this year when it became an Asian Tour event but  I didn’t know they sponsored any event on the PGA tour ?
		
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger
Copy & Pasted

"Look, if they want to look at it in prism, then why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40-plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia?
"Why is it OK for the sponsors? Why is it OK that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? Why is it not OK for these players?
"Will (PGA Tour commissioner) Jay Monahan go to each and every one of those CEOs of the 23 companies that are doing business with or taking investment from Saudi Arabia and suspend them and ban them? The hypocrisy in all this, it's so loud. It's deafening."
"The European PGA Tour (has) a golf tournament, the Saudi International, that's still in existence since 2019, "


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't shoot the messenger
Copy & Pasted

"Look, if they want to look at it in prism, then why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40-plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia?
"Why is it OK for the sponsors? Why is it OK that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? Why is it not OK for these players?
"Will (PGA Tour commissioner) Jay Monahan go to each and every one of those CEOs of the 23 companies that are doing business with or taking investment from Saudi Arabia and suspend them and ban them? The hypocrisy in all this, it's so loud. It's deafening."
"The European PGA Tour (has) a golf tournament, the Saudi International, that's still in existence since 2019, "
		
Click to expand...

So what we need is more of it, on steroids. That will make things OK.


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So Liv is sponsored *directly* by and the PGA Tour is sponsored *partly indirectly* by Saudi Arabia.

Where is the line drawn?
I've no idea 🙈
		
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I think you drew the line yourself. Taking money directly from a Saudi state image-laundering fund should be ethically untouchable. 

There is a lot of whatabouttery around, with people attacking companies like Pfizer Hotels for operating in Saudi. I don't see why Saudi people shouldn't get the latest medicines, personally. That is very different and needs a lot more careful unpacking. As it stands, I am unaware if the PGA Tour gets money directly or indirectly from Saudi, and if so whether any of that is from the state or private companies there. it is ridiculous to suggest that the PGA Tour should not accept sponsorship from, for example, Marriott just because Marriott has hotels in Saudi.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't shoot the messenger
Copy & Pasted

"Look, if they want to look at it in prism, then why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40-plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia?
"Why is it OK for the sponsors? Why is it OK that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? Why is it not OK for these players?
"Will (PGA Tour commissioner) Jay Monahan go to each and every one of those CEOs of the 23 companies that are doing business with or taking investment from Saudi Arabia and suspend them and ban them? The hypocrisy in all this, it's so loud. It's deafening."
"The European PGA Tour (has) a golf tournament, the Saudi International, that's still in existence since 2019, "
		
Click to expand...

im not sure whose words they are 🤷‍♂️

But again it doesn’t show that the PIF sponsor any event within the PGA Tour 

Who a company does business with will always find some link somewhere to the Middle East or China or Russia etc but it’s straw clutching whataboutary- 

The LiV is full financed by PIF , the PGA tour has multiple sponsors - mainly US companies and none financed by PIF 

And the Saudi International is now part of the Asian Tour 

But I also don’t recall many saying it’s all ok for the ET - I know with have had many debates over players being paid to play in those events 

And I don’t recall many saying it’s ok for Aramco Sponsoring the Ladies - in fact when there was a Ladies event in Saudi many called them hyprocrites for taking the money


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## evemccc (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think you drew the line yourself. Taking money directly from a Saudi state image-laundering fund should be ethically untouchable.

There is a lot of whatabouttery around, with people attacking companies like Pfizer Hotels for operating in Saudi. I don't see why Saudi people shouldn't get the latest medicines, personally. That is very different and needs a lot more careful unpacking. As it stands, I am unaware if the PGA Tour gets money directly or indirectly from Saudi, and if so whether any of that is from the state or private companies there. it is ridiculous to suggest that the PGA Tour should not accept sponsorship from, for example, Marriott just because Marriott has hotels in Saudi.
		
Click to expand...

The word and phrase ‘whataboutery’ has been bandied around a lot on this thread….Another word is ‘context’ —-and examples cited in this thread about companies related to the PGA Tour, about the IOC having the Olympics in Beijing, about Russia getting the World Cup, about F1, about the ET Saudi event etc etc are to contextualise what is - and has been - happening

Providing context and nuance to relatively complicated societal developments is needed - simply claiming ‘whataboutery’ is knee-jerk twitter-esq speak
😜


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## pokerjoke (Jul 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't shoot the messenger
Copy & Pasted

"Look, if they want to look at it in prism, then why does the PGA Tour have 23 sponsors within the PGA Tour doing 40-plus billion dollars worth of business with Saudi Arabia?
"Why is it OK for the sponsors? Why is it OK that there's a Saudi sponsor, Aramco, the largest sponsor of women's golf in the world? Why is it OK for them? Why is it not OK for these players?
"Will (PGA Tour commissioner) Jay Monahan go to each and every one of those CEOs of the 23 companies that are doing business with or taking investment from Saudi Arabia and suspend them and ban them? The hypocrisy in all this, it's so loud. It's deafening."
"The European PGA Tour (has) a golf tournament, the Saudi International, that's still in existence since 2019, "
		
Click to expand...

People will always look the other way if it doesn’t suit their argument,it’s a trait on here on many threads.
Wether the money is direct or indirect into any tour from countries that are not great on human rights it’s all tainted money.
Making an argument slating one way when excepting another is totally hypocritical,but once again the hypocrites on here won’t worry about that.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			knee-jerk twitter-esq speak
😜
		
Click to expand...

Now that’s a good phrase, I think it might get pinched

Have you had it copyrighted? 👍


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			So what we need is more of it, on steroids. That will make things OK.
		
Click to expand...

BigDraw makes a fair point - the PGA Tour is in no position to push the ethical point on Saudi involvement.
But the point is a red herring anyway - some people and press may be pushing that element, but the PGA Tour is not. It is unfair to label them hypocritical when they are not making the claim to be clean, and LIV be Saudi tainted.


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The word and phrase ‘whataboutery’ has been bandied around a lot on this thread….Another word is ‘context’ —-and examples cited in this thread about companies related to the PGA Tour, about the IOC having the Olympics in Beijing, about Russia getting the World Cup, about F1, about the ET Saudi event etc etc are to contextualise what is - and has been - happening

Providing context and nuance to relatively complicated societal developments is needed - simply claiming ‘whataboutery’ is knee-jerk twitter-esq speak
😜
		
Click to expand...

I explained my point in a way I thought was pretty clear. Let me know if you didn't get it, and I will try again.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
You’d think that somebody would have spotted the opportunity earlier tbh.
		
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It's possible/likely that they have and rejected it as the stupid and irrelevant idea is - for their format that is 99.99% individual!

It's not 'filling a gap'! In LIV's case, it's a manufactured idea that's solely for differentiation with other tours that is virtually an irrelevance to what happens on the golf course - no different to the Shotgun start. It's only the commentators constant referral to it, obviously something stressed in their instructions, that maintains any awareness of it - which I'd sooner not have. Probably, not a bad 'bonding' exercise off the course though.



Mel Smooth said:



			Change is bad eh?
...
		
Click to expand...

Some are, and this (LIV Teams) is an example that I wish would go away/lose emphasis!
Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

The counter-argument is 'Why hasn't this happened before now?'! And the answer, apart from 'real' team events such as Ryder Cup etc, is that it's a naff idea!


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## Anoetic (Jul 2, 2022)

At the moment LIV is filling a gap as it’s not behind a paywall, but when that changes so does the argument…….


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## evemccc (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I explained my point in a way I thought was pretty clear. Let me know if you didn't get it, and I will try again.
		
Click to expand...

I understood it perfectly


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 2, 2022)

Growing the game looks more like this.....


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I understood it perfectly
		
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Well then you chose to ignore most of it and concentrate on one word.


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## BrianM (Jul 2, 2022)

The moral aspect is something that we need to move on from in this discussion, the list could be endless for everyone’s moral compass, kill animals just so we can eat their meat, drink Russian vodka, supporting the war against Ukraine, buying consumer goods from china, supportive the regime for child labour, Don’t go to Dubai, built on slavery, the list could go on and on, judging by this thread there are a lot of people living like absolute angels who don’t put a foot out of place.


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## evemccc (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well then you chose to ignore most of it and concentrate on one word.
		
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I explained my point in a way I thought was pretty clear. Let me know if you didn't get it, and I will try again.


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Who here can see the four majors switching to 54 holes in a few years time ?


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## IainP (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who here can see the four majors switching to 54 holes in a few years time ?
		
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Not me, they should rightly be about history & tradition.
But is there place for some 54 hole comps during the 'regular season' (as our US friends may refer to them)? IMO yes.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who here can see the four majors switching to 54 holes in a few years time ?
		
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Well in reality, the bit that’s worth watching is only 36 holes anyway. Cut after day 1, then 2x18 hole rounds - why not, it wouldn’t make any difference to the final outcome.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in reality, the bit that’s worth watching is only 36 holes anyway. Cut after day 1, then 2x18 hole rounds - why not, it wouldn’t make any difference to the final outcome.
		
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Do you actually believe half the stuff you post ? 

3 round majors is the sort of thing Norman would love - prob would have stopped his 4th round failures in the Masters


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

Things need to change in the majors - they have to be refreshed at this stage. 54 holes would be just part of an evolution to teams as part of a longer term plan. Teams chosen for each major by the respective organisation running it. Then a league table according to the performance of each of those teams in the 4 majors each year. A shotgun start on the 3rd day would widen the appeal beyond todays older profile of golf fan, and bring in the youth that are essential to growing the game. The winning team would become the real focus of the majors rather than the individuals lifting dusty silverware that has been going since men won then using hickory shafts.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 2, 2022)

I quite like the idea of shorter tournaments, let's get back to the Open being played with a final day of 36 holes just like it was until 1966.

May even speed up play......


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I explained my point in a way I thought was pretty clear. Let me know if you didn't get it, and I will try again.
		
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Try again, because the last one was rubbish. Include in your answer an explanation of whether you think that companies who trade with Saudi are ethically doing the same thing as LIV Tour taking state funding.


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Things need to change in the majors - they have to be refreshed at this stage. 54 holes would be just part of an evolution to teams as part of a longer term plan. Teams chosen for each major by the respective organisation running it. Then a league table according to the performance of each of those teams in the 4 majors each year. A shotgun start on the 3rd day would widen the appeal beyond todays older profile of golf fan, and bring in the youth that are essential to growing the game. The winning team would become the real focus of the majors rather than the individuals lifting dusty silverware that has been going since men won then using hickory shafts.
		
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Stop taking those drugs. None of that will ever happen. Thank God*. 

*Not a statement of belief there is one.


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## Depreston (Jul 2, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The moral aspect is something that we need to move on from in this discussion, the list could be endless for everyone’s moral compass, kill animals just so we can eat their meat, drink Russian vodka, supporting the war against Ukraine, buying consumer goods from china, supportive the regime for child labour, Don’t go to Dubai, built on slavery, the list could go on and on, judging by this thread there are a lot of people living like absolute angels who don’t put a foot out of place.
		
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Sportswashing 101 right there


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## JamesR (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who here can see the four majors switching to 54 holes in a few years time ?
		
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No one !
Proper golf is 72 hole stroke play. Anything else is a gimmick, made different for the sake of being different.


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## JamesR (Jul 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in reality, the bit that’s worth watching is only 36 holes anyway. Cut after day 1, then 2x18 hole rounds - why not, it wouldn’t make any difference to the final outcome.
		
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Is that Greg’s official line?
Because it’s a load of 💩


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## Backsticks (Jul 2, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Is that Greg’s official line?
Because it’s a load of 💩
		
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Well, it might explain if it truly is coming from the man who led all 4 majors in 1986(?) after, what, aaahm, oh yeh...54 holes.
I think we need some Freudian analysis on Greg and LIV. Sometimes a cigar is just 54 holes.


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## GallowayGolfer (Jul 2, 2022)

Paul Casey just signed


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 2, 2022)

GallowayGolfer said:



			Paul Casey just signed
		
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Will his back allow him to do all 3 rounds?


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Things need to change in the majors - they have to be refreshed at this stage. 54 holes would be just part of an evolution to teams as part of a longer term plan. Teams chosen for each major by the respective organisation running it. Then a league table according to the performance of each of those teams in the 4 majors each year. A shotgun start on the 3rd day would widen the appeal beyond todays older profile of golf fan, and bring in the youth that are essential to growing the game. The winning team would become the real focus of the majors rather than the individuals lifting dusty silverware that has been going since men won then using hickory shafts.
		
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What a load of drivel! You have to be taking the 'p' surely!


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## Crow (Jul 2, 2022)

Is all this petty to-and-fro squabbling what The Footie Thread is like?


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## Duckster (Jul 2, 2022)

Seriously is this still going on? Ffs, if you don’t like Saudi then who really cares? If you do then go for your life. But why is this a massive bone of contention with people?


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not me, they should rightly be about history & tradition.
...
		
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Nor me! 


IainP said:



			...
But is there place for some 54 hole comps during the 'regular season' (as our US friends may refer to them)? IMO yes.
		
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I can't see why! What benefit does it actually give?


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Stop taking those drugs. None of that will ever happen. Thank God*.

*Not a statement of belief there is one.
		
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99.9% sure Mr Backsticks post was ironic/sarcastic.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

Crow said:



			Is all this petty to-and-fro squabbling what The Footie Thread is like?
		
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Duckster said:



			Seriously is this still going on? Ffs, if you don’t like Saudi then who really cares? If you do then go for your life. But why is this a massive bone of contention with people?
		
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If you are not interested in it, simply don't visit the thread!


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 2, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Will his back allow him to do all 3 rounds?
		
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As it’s an exhibition with guaranteed money it doesn’t really matter what the score is anyway. Money already in the bank, so a nice three day walk. If the back holds up and he can get a score going, even better for the account.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 3, 2022)

Decided to commit to watching the whole Liv Event so I could try and work out what I thought of it purely as a golf event.

I Like
That they are trying something different to engage a younger audience to the game.
That they have some top Golfers in the field now.
The TV coverage, tons of cameras and no adverts (that may change with the TV deal that is going to come at some point)
The shotgun start and having all the players on the course at the same time, no lulls in the action
The standard of golf on a tough golf course, with marquee names at the 1st page of the leaderboard.
I like the colour coded hole diagrams at the bottom of the screen showing green for birdie holes through yellow to red for the hardest holes
I like the fan experience with lots to do and music concerts in the evening which I think helps attract a younger audience, they have a big crowd for the final day..
That they really look after the caddies with logistics and pay. 

II don't like
The team element, I do think there is an embryo of something there but it needs tweaking, the players seem to like it more with going out for meals together etc than the TV audience
The on course commentators, need to improve or be replaced.
The field overall is still weak for recognisable names but I can only see that improving in the coming events.

II want to be clear I love watching the big PGA Tour events and can't wait to watch The Open.

The biggest thing I don't like is how fractured the game of golf is right now and just hope a resolution can be found between the tours but that looks impossible right now.

I think we could end up with 2 separate tours with the best of the best only playing each other 4 times a year because the majors will want the best at their events.

I am actually not a big fan of Greg Norman but I have to say I agree with him when he says Golfers are independent contractors and should be able to play where they want.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

GallowayGolfer said:



			Paul Casey just signed
		
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Ho-hum to that.
Another in the 'past it but happy to top the pension pot up significantly' category.
Never really showed much allegiance to either tour (an observation, not a criticism), so not surprised.


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## AussieKB (Jul 3, 2022)

Can see if Tigger signed then the comments would be "oh he's past it"
about time to change your tune guys, why be negative all the time, if nobody tried something new in this world where would be ?
still in a cave rubbing sticks together.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Can see if Tigger signed then the comments would be "oh he's past it"
about time to change your tune guys, why be negative all the time, if nobody tried something new in this world where would be ?
still in a cave rubbing sticks together.
		
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That's because he IS!
Well, not so much 'past it' so much as 'incapable of competing', even in a 3 round comp'!
I'm sure the proposal has actually been quietly made - as he would be a massive draw. But lack of response means it was rebuffed, at least for now.

The reason folk are negative is that they think it's a bad thing. Until that view changes, why would/should they change their mind? The 2 comps so far haven't done anything to make me change mine!


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 3, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			As it’s an exhibition with guaranteed money it doesn’t really matter what the score is anyway. Money already in the bank, so a nice three day walk. If the back holds up and he can get a score going, even better for the account.
		
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For Casey, yes.  For the product, a *super* league according to the name, not so good.

Given Casey's nickname, I'm sure he'll fit in well with FIGJAM and the others.


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## IainP (Jul 3, 2022)

Does anyone know of any predominantly South African based forums? Would be interesting reading how things are viewed there given the success of their players


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## Anoetic (Jul 3, 2022)

For everyone not liking the team aspect it was interesting to hear brandon and Dustin talking about it walking down 18, and the reaction of the players on the 18th green.  I can only see it getting bigger especially moving toward the end of season competition.  And the final round of Brandon’s would deserve to win any competition…..


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## Ethan (Jul 3, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given *Casey's nickname*, I'm sure he'll fit in well with FIGJAM and the others.
		
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What's that, then?


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			What's that, then?
		
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Used to be 'Popeye' - reflecting his well developed forearms.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			What's that, then?
		
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Alf.  I'm sure you can work it out...


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## Crow (Jul 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			If you are not interested in it, simply don't visit the thread!
		
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I want to know what's happening with the LIV experiment, not read the same half a dozen people clogging the thread by going round in circles talking the same old  while trying to prove that they're the best/saintliest/wittiest/cleverest/most ironic/snide/sarcastic/etc/etc.


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## timd77 (Jul 3, 2022)

Casey the snake gone, no big deal. Not exactly a player who makes you switch on to watch golf is he. 

Interesting that I have absolutely no idea who won this week’s LIV exhibition,  or how anyone got on. The Irish Open, on the other hand, very enjoyable.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

Crow said:



*I want to know what's happening with the LIV experiment*, not read the same half a dozen people clogging the thread by going round in circles talking the same old  while trying to prove that they're the best/saintliest/wittiest/cleverest/most ironic/snide/sarcastic/etc/etc.
		
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Here's not the best place to look for that then!


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## AussieKB (Jul 3, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Casey the snake gone, no big deal. Not exactly a player who makes you switch on to watch golf is he.

Interesting that I have absolutely no idea who won this week’s LIV exhibition,  or how anyone got on. The Irish Open, on the other hand, very enjoyable.
		
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Who won the Irish ?


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## pokerjoke (Jul 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			If you are not interested in it, simply don't visit the thread!
		
Click to expand...

Spot on
You’ve got to be pretty dumb to go on a thread you know already has descended into a farce looking for sensible information or an adult debate.
Try google it’s got everything you need to know.

Really enjoyed the Golf last night
Certainly was nowhere near an exhibition tournament,the only exhibition was the quality golf.
Felt like a good tour event going down the stretch.
Good crowds with a great atmosphere.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 3, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Spot on
You’ve got to be pretty dumb to go on a thread you know already has descended into a farce looking for sensible information or an adult debate.
Try google it’s got everything you need to know.

Really enjoyed the Golf last night
Certainly was nowhere near an exhibition tournament,the only exhibition was the quality golf.
Felt like a good tour event going down the stretch.
Good crowds with a great atmosphere.
		
Click to expand...

Sums up what this forum has become when you can't discuss golf.....


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Who won the Irish ?
		
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No one yet, it's the full 4 rounds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Who won the Irish ?
		
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🤷‍♂️ It’s not finished yet

And people posting just to complain about the thread 🤦‍♂️ And what does that add 

In fairness the posts haven’t turned to insults and people have been respectful apart from the obvious


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## Springveldt (Jul 3, 2022)

I don’t get the “it’s an exhibition, they’ve already been paid” thinking. The most popular sport in the world has players who have already been paid yet it’s definitely not an exhibition.

Liverpool have just given Salah what amounts to a $65M, 3 year deal. Are we expecting him to not care if they win or lose now? What about the NBA player that just signed a $193M 4 year deal? Does he no longer care if he wins or loses?

Why do we think golfers would be any different? These guys have been hyper competitive since they were early teenagers.

The team aspect may actually work with the players since they are guaranteed money and don’t have to look at every player as someone who is trying to steal their money.

Also, looked like a big, lively crowd yesterday and Grace’s final round was worthy of winning any tournament.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Who won the Irish ?
		
Click to expand...

Given it’s a proper golf tournament it hasn’t finished yet.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Spot on
You’ve got to be pretty dumb to go on a thread you know already has descended into a farce looking for sensible information or an adult debate.
Try google it’s got everything you need to know.

Really enjoyed the Golf last night
Certainly was nowhere near an exhibition tournament,the only exhibition was the quality golf.
Felt like a good tour event going down the stretch.
Good crowds with a great atmosphere.
		
Click to expand...

Still too much emphasis on the 'team' element by commentators imo.
And still a bit much flicking from one hole to another for me. Fine if they are great shots, but too many weren't - even if described as such by commentators, who need to/hopefully will improve, or at least wait until the ball finishes before declaring the shot 'great'!. Too many such shots ended up in v tricky positions, so weren't as great as they looked. 'Great looking' works without endangering 'foot in mouth' syndrome!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 3, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I don’t get the “it’s an exhibition, they’ve already been paid” thinking. The most popular sport in the world has players who have already been paid yet it’s definitely not an exhibition.

Liverpool have just given Salah what amounts to a $65M, 3 year deal. Are we expecting him to not care if they win or lose now? What about the NBA player that just signed a $193M 4 year deal? Does he no longer care if he wins or loses?

Why do we think golfers would be any different? These guys have been hyper competitive since they were early teenagers.

The team aspect may actually work with the players since they are guaranteed money and don’t have to look at every player as someone who is trying to steal their money.

Also, looked like a big, lively crowd last yesterday and Grace’s final round was worthy of winning any tournament.
		
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You can’t compare to team sport - players get sponsorship etc before they play as well

If Salah or indeed any other don’t perform to any sort of level they don’t get a contract 

Golf you get paid if you play well


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## Depreston (Jul 3, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Casey the snake gone, no big deal. Not exactly a player who makes you switch on to watch golf is he.

Interesting that I have absolutely no idea who won this week’s LIV exhibition,  or how anyone got on. The Irish Open, on the other hand, very enjoyable.
		
Click to expand...

His trick at the WGC Matchplay was a greedy move if I’ve ever seen one


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## timd77 (Jul 3, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I don’t get the “it’s an exhibition, they’ve already been paid” thinking. The most popular sport in the world has players who have already been paid yet it’s definitely not an exhibition.

Liverpool have just given Salah what amounts to a $65M, 3 year deal. Are we expecting him to not care if they win or lose now? What about the NBA player that just signed a $193M 4 year deal? Does he no longer care if he wins or loses?

Why do we think golfers would be any different? These guys have been hyper competitive since they were early teenagers.

The team aspect may actually work with the players since they are guaranteed money and don’t have to look at every player as someone who is trying to steal their money.

Also, looked like a big, lively crowd last yesterday and Grace’s final round was worthy of winning any tournament.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			You can’t compare to team sport - players get sponsorship etc before they play as well

If Salah or indeed any other don’t perform to any sort of level they don’t get a contract

Golf you get paid if you play well
		
Click to expand...

Plus, premier league footballers and nba basketball players are trying to win a competition that means something, that everyone wants to win. If you’d said the nations league (or whatever it’s called) or footballers on their last legs playing in the Chinese league, it would’ve been a relevant comparison.


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## Crow (Jul 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ It’s not finished yet

And people posting just to complain about the thread 🤦‍♂️ And what does that add

In fairness the posts haven’t turned to insults and people have been respectful apart from the obvious
		
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I'm out.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can’t compare to team sport - players get sponsorship etc before they play as well

If Salah or indeed any other don’t perform to any sort of level they don’t get a contract

Golf you get paid if you play well
		
Click to expand...

But that’s what will happen with LIV. Team franchises, team sponsorships, player sponsorships… The teams will want the best players available, the better teams will win more money, and in turn, generate more money. 
There will be huge similarities between how football teams operate, and how LIV teams operate - although I guess LIV will be nearer to the US based sports than those in the UK.


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## Springveldt (Jul 3, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Plus, premier league footballers and nba basketball players are trying to win a competition that means something, that everyone wants to win. If you’d said the nations league (or whatever it’s called) or footballers on their last legs playing in the Chinese league, it would’ve been a relevant comparison.
		
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I’ve seen my mates in their Sunday league on their last legs still desperate to win. 

You just can’t turn off a switch when you have been competitive your whole life. 

Suddenly you want me to believe guys that have been competitive their whole life, got to the top of their sport, played in Ryder Cups etc just don’t care about winning anymore because they are guaranteed money? So, where they only playing for money all along?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But that’s what will happen with LIV. Team franchises, team sponsorships, player sponsorships… The teams will want the best players available, the better teams will win more money, and in turn, generate more money.
There will be huge similarities between how football teams operate, and how LIV teams operate - although I guess LIV will be nearer to the US based sports than those in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I asked yesterday but I don’t think you answered but who is it you think will be buying these teams and then be happy to run a huge losses each year ? 
it’s a huge leap for a sport that’s primarily all about the individual to having a set up of professional teams 




Springveldt said:



			I’ve seen my mates in their Sunday league on their last legs still desperate to win.

You just can’t turn off a switch when you have been competitive your whole life.

Suddenly you want me to believe guys that have been competitive their whole life, got to the top of their sport, played in Ryder Cups etc just don’t care about winning anymore because they are guaranteed money? So, where they only playing for money all along?
		
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If it’s not just about the money why have they gone to the Liv tour then ? 

Look at the likes of McDowell and Mickleson and their performances so far


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 3, 2022)

Going off on a slight tangent. 

I bet Netflix can't believe their luck that all this kicked off during their 1st season of their PGA Tour doc series like the F1 Drive To Survive.. 

Going to be great viewing for that and all other behind the scenes viewing..


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I asked yesterday but I don’t think you answered but who is it you think will be buying these teams and then be happy to run a huge losses each year ?
it’s a huge leap for a sport that’s primarily all about the individual to having a set up of professional teams
		
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The same sort of people that buy football clubs, or fund NBA teams, or buy racehorses, or finance F1 teams……
Let’s not forget, the Saudis are very well connected to a huge network of businesses across the globe through the PIF.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Look at the likes of McDowell and Mickleson and their performances so far
		
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Just on the quote above - Form is temporary for every pro golfer. 
You can't just turn on good play like a tap. 
Im sure your not implying Phil Mickleson is a poor golfer and can't return to playing great golf again? 

Every tour is littered with Golfers who have enjoyed real success only to go through a bad patch. 
Jordan Spieth is an example that springs to mind, great to see him back at the top of PGA Tour leader boards again.


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But that’s what will happen with LIV. Team franchises, team sponsorships, player sponsorships… The teams will want the best players available, the better teams will win more money, and in turn, generate more money.
There will be huge similarities between how football teams operate, and how LIV teams operate - although I guess LIV will be nearer to the US based sports than those in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I just cannot see this happening how you say it will. 

Whenever they try to push this team element it just seems so contrived and forced... "and heres the crushers team having breakfast together" along with about 30 cameras recording awkward conversation.

Theres absolutely nothing to tie a supporter to a team. At least in most other team sports in the world you at least have a town or city that the club represents. Having four English golfers isn't going to make me support the majesticks, its not enough of a tie.


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## fenwayrich (Jul 3, 2022)

Golf is essentially a sport played by individuals where you cannot influence the effort of the opposition. I appreciate that the Ryder Cup has been successful in adding a 'team' element every two years, because of the rivalry between two continents. This LIV idea is nonsense because there is nothing to tie the individuals together, or for spectators to support them.

There is another problem. Suppose Dustin Johnson arrives at the last hole and makes par for a total of 205. On his last hole, Dustin's Gutta Percha teammate Fred Stickinsect has a putt for birdie to win the team prize by 1 shot. A birdie will also give Stickinsect a total of 204 and a one shot victory in the Individual event. Is Dustin going to be thinking 'knock it in Freddie boy, up the Perchas'? Or, perhaps, would he prefer an alternative outcome?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Just on the quote above - Form is temporary for every pro golfer.
You can't just turn on good play like a tap.
*im sure your not implying Phil Mickleson is a poor golfer and can't return to playing great golf again?*

Every tour is littered with Golfers who have enjoyed real success only to go through a bad patch.
Jordan Spieth is an example that springs to mind, great to see him back at the top of PGA Tour leader boards again.
		
Click to expand...

I’m pretty sure that Mickleson even before moving wouldn’t be challenging the top level again unless it was on the champions tour 

Same with the likes of McDowell , Kaymer , Westwood , Garcia and Poulter 

DJ clearly would be and the likes of BDC and Koepka was injury dependent


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## Slab (Jul 3, 2022)

With all the aged, injured, infirm and players generally never gonna win again, that have moved to liv and that until recently were plying their trade on the pgat... its a wonder people like Rory didn't win more often


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## IanM (Jul 3, 2022)

If you get paid a bomb just to appear, Where's the incentive to do the time on the practice ground?  We'll increasingly see some shocking scores at the bottom of the leaderboard


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			If you get paid a bomb just to appear, Where's the incentive to do the time on the practice ground?  We'll increasingly see some shocking scores at the bottom of the leaderboard
		
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Every tournament has shocking scores at the bottom of the leaderboard, hence why they are there.. 
Regardless of circumstances a big proportion of every field turn up without their A game, you just don't see it on TV.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 3, 2022)

This whole Liv thing isn't going to be instigated by Greg Norman or the PGA Tour. 

It's going to be instigated by THE PLAYERS... 

If enough top 50 players are tempted by the money then Liv will be a big success.. 

If not I can see it plodding along for a while and then fizzing out. 

I honestly think its as simple as that.


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## Depreston (Jul 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This whole Liv thing isn't going to be instigated by Greg Norman or the PGA Tour.

It's going to be instigated by THE PLAYERS...

If enough top 50 players are tempted by the money then Liv will be a big success..

If not I can see it plodding along for a while and then fizzing out.

I honestly think its as simple as that.
		
Click to expand...

the players and the PIF


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The same sort of people that buy football clubs, or fund NBA teams, or buy racehorses, or finance F1 teams……
Let’s not forget, the Saudis are very well connected to a huge network of businesses across the globe through the PIF.
		
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So football clubs ( established team sport ) , NBA teams ( established teams sport) , F1 ( established team sport ) and racehorses don’t cost that level but people buy racehorses at the expensive levels when they are already have stables etc

Also people buy football clubs as investments and the clubs will be in competitions that are earning clubs millions etc - same with NBA and IPL , F1 or indeed any other team sport

Currently PIF are funding the whole LIV top to bottom - if a “team” is put up for the sale that would mean it would need to be financially viable to run as no one will be willing to lose money and fund at the level the players are now - £100mil plus for the top players , where is the income coming from to help pay those golfers ?

The likes of football etc get huge levels of income from Telly deals and also big levels of  sponsorship - do you really think that LIV will be able to stand on its own and be able to generate income to the level needed to pay the players ? And that’s on top of providing the prize funds as well ?

You are trying suggest that a franchise golf team can work along the same lines as franchise cricket teams - there is not a chance of that because golf is not a team sport

Unless you think they bin off the individual prize for each comp ?


This is also a good thread about the ranking points


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543644864755154944


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 3, 2022)

I like the suggestion that LIV stands for Lacking Integrity and Values.


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## IainP (Jul 3, 2022)

Looking forward to watching a couple of weeks of golf in Scotland.

Then the end of July will be interesting with 'Bedminster' up with 'Rocket Mortgage'  👀


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## Marshy77 (Jul 3, 2022)

Ryder Cup captain supposed to be going now too* 😂

*According to social media rumors


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## IanM (Jul 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Every tournament has shocking scores at the bottom of the leaderboard, hence why they are there..
		
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Sorry,  the point i was making was that on the LIV, these guys are still getting paid lots of money.  There is no cut!!

On the regular tour they miss the cut and get paid nothing.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			...
On the regular tour they miss the cut and get paid nothing.
		
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And still have to pay their Caddy for the week!


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This whole Liv thing isn't going to be instigated by Greg Norman or the PGA Tour.

It's going to be instigated by THE PLAYERS...

If enough top 50 players are tempted by the money then Liv will be a big success..

If not I can see it plodding along for a while and then fizzing out.

I honestly think its as simple as that.
		
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The guy driving it is Greg Norman and it'll be his, with PIF's cash backing, efforts that swing players to it.
TPGAT are only reacting to what they perceive a threat.
I agree re top 50 (or thereabouts) players being important, though even those 51-100 are great/well known golfers.
I can see it being a 'interesting circus' but not the 'existential threat' Monahan identifies it as.
Key to it's acceptance/survival is allocation of OWGR points. There are quite a few issues LIV would have to overcome to be included (period of existence, only 54 holes, no cut being major technical ones and sheer existence/nature being a 'political' one!)


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			And still have to pay their Caddy for the week!
		
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Plus travel, plus accommodation, plus living expenses. Perhaps no money for those missing the cut is one aspect of golf to consign to the history books? Is there another sport where some professional sports players do not get paid despite taking part?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Plus travel, plus accommodation, plus living expenses. Perhaps no money for those missing the cut is one aspect of golf to consign to the history books? Is there another sport where some professional sports players do not get paid despite taking part?
		
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Would have been a smart move by Monahan to announce a player and caddy costs incurred support payment when he found all those millions for prize money a week or so ago. If he’s just going to give it Rory, Justin, or Will, he needn’t have bothered, they don’t want or need it according to their own comments.


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2022)

I was going to mention the expenses,  but wonder if the jeopardy of missing cut is what sets golf apart 🤔


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2022)

IanM said:



			I was going to mention the expenses,  but wonder if the jeopardy of missing cut is what sets golf apart 🤔
		
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There must be a middle ground, the big dogs get sponsors so Rory and say rahm they miss the cut.. small fry they still got money in the bank 

Your smaller guy misses cut and has to pay his caddy and cover his own costs 

Now all Id like to see is the caddy's costs covered..as caddying can be down to luck if you get a winner or not.. sometimes a bit of know how but say Rory's caddy whilst a good golfer has got that gig cuz he's his mate. Westwoods had the wife on the bag etc 

So if they just covered the costs so the caddies weren't out of pocket fair play 

The player pays them a fee and the tour pays their travel , accomodation and food 

Seems reasonable


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

IanM said:



			I was going to mention the expenses,  but wonder if the jeopardy of missing cut is what sets golf apart 🤔
		
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I suspect not, especially for those that miss plenty. I’d imagine it’s a bit of a slog, especially outside of the PGA Tour where there will be far less money available for sponsorships etc for the lesser known players.
Scott Hend is pretty honest about the challenges if you follow him on twitter.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I suspect not, especially for those that miss plenty. I’d imagine it’s a bit of a slog, especially outside of the PGA Tour where there will be far less money available for sponsorships etc for the lesser known players.
Scott Hend is pretty honest about the challenges if you follow him on twitter.
		
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Could it be that the PGA, as people on here have mentioned, are possibly in the dark ages still? (Like certain aspects of golf tbh). Maybe, LIV, rightly or wrongly and obviously with massive backing are doing parts of what the PGA should be doing and this is part of a bigger issue that players have.

In a way you can't blame average players jumping ship in order to earn money, even if they finish bottom half, by playing 54 holes and getting something rather than nothing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Plus travel, plus accommodation, plus living expenses. Perhaps no money for those missing the cut is one aspect of golf to consign to the history books? Is there another sport where some professional sports players do not get paid despite taking part?
		
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It’s amusing when all the talk is about the players being self employed and contractors etc and being able to play on any tour they want which is the same as caddies - they are self employed , contractors etc so it’s up to them to organise their contract with the player and also to arrange their own sponsorships etc 

All individual sports are the same - they get paid on their performances, and the level of payments will be depending on that performance 

It’s a sport - it’s tough ,why should they get paid just for turning up ? 

If a caddy is that worried they are more than welcome to go to another player ?


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## PieMan (Jul 4, 2022)

So that's it then - LIV was created so that the caddies could get a decent income! 

That's all the defectees needed to say "Yes I've come across just so my caddy can get a decent wage. The £100m isn't for me, but for Jimbo on the bag"!!!


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Plus travel, plus accommodation, plus living expenses. Perhaps no money for those missing the cut is one aspect of golf to consign to the history books? Is there another sport where some professional sports players do not get paid despite taking part?
		
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Most, at least many, will have sponsorship deals/packages that cover that sort of thing. Arranging that sort of thing is part of their agent's role. That was something I gleaned from that tennis player I 'housed', though she was one of several who chose to avoid hotels because of the 'boredom' factor. For Wimbledon, many group together and rent nearby houses for the fortnight - as Katrina did.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Plus travel, plus accommodation, plus living expenses. Perhaps no money for those missing the cut is one aspect of golf to consign to the history books? Is there another sport where some professional sports players do not get paid despite taking part?
		
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First round losers in Tennis for one.


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## evemccc (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			First round losers in Tennis for one.
		
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Nope

In the tennis majors they certainly get paid


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s amusing when all the talk is about the players being self employed and contractors etc and being able to play on any tour they want which is the same as caddies - they are self employed , contractors etc so it’s up to them to organise their contract with the player and also to arrange their own sponsorships etc

All individual sports are the same - they get paid on their performances, and the level of payments will be depending on that performance

It’s a sport - it’s tough ,why should they get paid just for turning up ?

If a caddy is that worried they are more than welcome to go to another player ?
		
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I suspect the arrangement with LIV is 'different' for a couple of reasons...the huge amount players are, supposedly, getting in each tournament.  The relatively few LIV tournaments, which restricts caddying opportunities - non-LIV players will use 'their own' caddies, just as LIV ones will. But, mainly imo, to keep the 'real' arrangements of player payments confidential.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s amusing when all the talk is about the players being self employed and contractors etc and being able to play on any tour they want which is the same as caddies - they are self employed , contractors etc so it’s up to them to organise their contract with the player and also to arrange their own sponsorships etc

All individual sports are the same - they get paid on their performances, and the level of payments will be depending on that performance

It’s a sport - it’s tough ,why should they get paid just for turning up ?

If a caddy is that worried they are more than welcome to go to another player ?
		
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Should the Norwich players have been paid this season?

Should the first, second, third round losers at Wimbledon be paid? Snooker world champs, darts etc

All individual sports are not the same, that is clearly not the case. You get paid MORE by doing well but you get paid something simply be taking part. After all, you are part of the entertainment whether you make the cut or not. The 70 odd players in a tournament that miss the cut are still watched to the spectators, tv coverage etc. The brutality of a golf cut.

You are so painfully blinded by your dislike of the LIV set up to actually see this aspect is a positive.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			First round losers in Tennis for one.
		
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$53,000 to get knocked out in Wimbledon Rd 1

£20,000 to get knocked out of snooker world champs, rd 1

£7,500 to get knocked out of darts world champs, rd 1


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Nope

In the* tennis majors* they certainly get paid
		
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That's because they are not, effectively, 'first round losers'. The qualifying tournament, however....
Though there's even payment for that these days.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			$53,000 to get knocked out in Wimbledon Rd 1

£20,000 to get knocked out of snooker world champs, rd 1

£7,500 to get knocked out of darts world champs, rd 1
		
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See post above.


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's because they are not, effectively, 'first round losers'. The qualifying tournament, however....
		
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The same could be argued for the golf majors (well the Open and US Open) then? Local and regional qualifiers etc.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's because they are not, effectively, 'first round losers'. The qualifying tournament, however....
		
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It's the first round and they lost. What else are they?

If you want to apply that to golf, tenuous at best, then people have to qualify for golf tournaments as well. It may be by ranking, it may be by being part of the tour or it may be through a qualifying event. In fact, same as with snooker, tennis, darts etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Should the Norwich players have been paid this season?
		
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It’s a team sport where the players are “employed” by the team - they are not self employed - they are employed to play football 

Who “employs” the golfer ?




			Should the first, second, third round losers at Wimbledon be paid? Snooker world champs, darts etc

All individual sports are not the same, that is clearly not the case. You get paid MORE by doing well but you get paid something simply be taking part. After all, you are part of the entertainment whether you make the cut or not. The 70 odd players in a tournament that miss the cut are still watched to the spectators, tv coverage etc. The brutality of a golf cut.

You are so painfully blinded by your dislike of the LIV set up to actually see this aspect is a positive.
		
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How many golfers get sponsership ? Pretty much every single one has a level of sponsorship to pay for costs - club contracts - it’s the same with caddies , they get paid by sponsors as well 

Each individual sport will be paid depending on performance- tennis players need to “qualify” to reach the majors , same with snooker , darts etc - they all know the money on offer and it’s the same with the golfers - a caddy knows what he is doing , knows the funds on offer in terms of prize money but they sort their costs out - there aren’t streams of caddies lining the streets homeless - even just turning up the caddy will have compensation somewhere 

The cut is brutal - welcome to competitive sport , it’s not new . 

If the caddies want to be paid just for being there then get employed by the tour then and they must do what the tour wants - caddy for who the tour wants them to caddy for 

It’s self employment - they have a contract with the golfer and any other sponsors - not the tour 

And it’s got nothing to do with LIV tour - it’s just another part of namby pampy modern society where people expect hand outs without earning it


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s amusing when all the talk is about the players being self employed and contractors etc and being able to play on any tour they want which is the same as caddies - they are self employed , contractors etc so it’s up to them to organise their contract with the player and also to arrange their own sponsorships etc

All individual sports are the same - they get paid on their performances, and the level of payments will be depending on that performance

It’s a sport - it’s tough ,why should they get paid just for turning up ?

If a caddy is that worried they are more than welcome to go to another player ?
		
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They should get paid because they are part of the event, one which generates millions of dollars of revenue, they are part of the reason you can wave the OWGR flag that you seem hung up on…. 
You’ll quite happily stand by the 72 hole criteria for the points ranking, but the lads that get chopped after two days don’t deserve a penny for their contribution?


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## evemccc (Jul 4, 2022)

Really, the inaccurate assertions - and responses from being corrected - this morning from the ‘usual suspects’ on this thread are a new low


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## Backsticks (Jul 4, 2022)

The lines above about bills and expenses to pay when missing a cut and being paid nothing makes it sound like they starve and live on the street that week. So what if they have a zero income week. They are not living hand to mouth on the breadline, and the weeks they do earn it is very good. As is the case with many contractors or professionals. Many days, they are not on the clock and billing hours. Other days they are, at a rate that overall gives them their income, even if it is not as smooth an income stream as other lines of work.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They should get paid because they are part of the event, one which generates millions of dollars of revenue, they are part of the reason you can wave the OWGR flag that you seem hung up on….
You’ll quite happily stand by the 72 hole criteria for the points ranking, but the lads that get chopped after two days don’t deserve a penny for their contribution?
		
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It’s professional competitive sport and the golfers and caddies are fully aware of the need to perform to be able to get paid - it’s not easy but do well and they get rewarded , don’t do well and they need to work harder to get the rewards. It’s not a “contribution” sport - it’s competitive and tough


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They should get paid because they are part of the event, one which generates millions of dollars of revenue, they are part of the reason you can wave the OWGR flag that you seem hung up on….
You’ll quite happily stand by the 72 hole criteria for the points ranking, but the lads that get chopped after two days don’t deserve a penny for their contribution?
		
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They do! Standard deal is (or at least, was) £X + 10% of winnings. So they get the £X (or $Y) irrespective of whether player makes cut or not. Many, however are on 'retainers' from their regulars, but can work for others (helping their self-employed status) on weeks when 'their' player is resting.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Just to highlight how much these guys have to lay out each week…

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536341712217550848


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## BiMGuy (Jul 4, 2022)

Why is no one fighting for fair payment for all of the marshals?


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## r0wly86 (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just to highlight how much these guys have to lay out each week…

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536341712217550848

Click to expand...

In 2018 so pre-covid, number 200 in the world, Parker McLachlin, entered 11 tournaments, he made $174,039 in the year. 11 tournaments at $6k as above would still mean he was clearing $108k in the year. Which while is nothing compared to the guys in the top 10 is still a pretty healthy income. Bearing in mind there is a good chance he would sponsorship as well which would go some way to cover the costs of travel and accomodation etc.

On the small tours, it is very tough to make a living. Pros at my old clubs played on small European tours and they would care share and split petrol as it was cheaper that flying, rent a house usually with not enough rooms so some would be sleeping on the floor. But if you get a PGA Tour Card you should still be making money


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Just to highlight how much these guys have to lay out each week…

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536341712217550848

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That's why getting an appropriate sponsorship 'package' is important - at least initially. One that either covers the costs adequately or provides actual product of the sponsor - such as accommodation or travel.


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## Backsticks (Jul 4, 2022)

The small tours arent really a career thing though, and making a living on them is not the goal. They are a learning, and filtering and proving ground, more akin to an apprentiship gateway to the real tour. Covering your expenses for a few years to see have you got what it takes to move to the big time is OK.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			In 2018 so pre-covid, number 200 in the world, Parker McLachlin, entered 11 tournaments, he made $174,039 in the year. 11 tournaments at $6k as above would still mean he was clearing $108k in the year. Which while is nothing compared to the guys in the top 10 is still a pretty healthy income. Bearing in mind there is a good chance he would sponsorship as well which would go some way to cover the costs of travel and accomodation etc.

On the small tours, it is very tough to make a living. Pros at my old clubs played on small European tours and they would care share and split petrol as it was cheaper that flying, rent a house usually with not enough rooms so some would be sleeping on the floor. But if you get a PGA Tour Card you should still be making money
		
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There would have been a few other expenses in there also - caddy likely 11k (likely more these days) + 18K winnings share for example. 200 OWGR is also quite a high ranking, though I can't say I've ever heard of him. Eduardo Molinari a fairly consistent top 25-ish in tournaments (T24 in Irish Open) is 232; brother Francisco is 179; Harrington is 194; Jamie Donaldson is 208


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They should get paid because they are part of the event, one which generates millions of dollars of revenue, they are part of the reason you can wave the OWGR flag that you seem hung up on….
You’ll quite happily stand by the 72 hole criteria for the points ranking, but the lads that get chopped after two days don’t deserve a penny for their contribution?
		
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As you and others have endlessly repeated, the players are independent contractors, so they contracted for that arrangement of missed cut, no money. As well as caddies, the coaches, physios, golf psychologists etc etc are also independent contractors to the players. Should they all get paid by the PGA Tour too?

Interestingly, when the PGA Tour went to their all-exempt Tour a couple of decades ago, which guaranteed more starts for players finishing lower down the money list, players like Nicklaus noted that this was against the spirit of competitive sport and would lead to complacency and mediocrity. The LIV Tour seems to rejoice in encouraging both.


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## AussieKB (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			As you and others have endlessly repeated, they are independent contractors, so they contracted for that arrangement. As well as caddies, the coaches, physios, golf psychologists etc etc are also independent contractors to the players. Should they all get paid by the PGA Tour too?
		
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So you agree they are independent contractors ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So you agree they are independent contractors ?
		
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I don’t think anyone has ever suggested they aren’t 🤷‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			The same could be argued for the golf majors (well the Open and US Open) then? Local and regional qualifiers etc.
		
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Agreed. And in Golf's case, the professional players don't get paid until the make the cut of the main tournament - at least as far as I know. Amateurs can earn up to $1000 dollars (deemed allowable expenses) these days, but, again, I don't believe that's on offer for The Open.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			As you and others have endlessly repeated, they are independent contractors, so they contracted for that arrangement. As well as caddies, the *coaches, physios, golf psychologists etc etc are also independent contractors to the players.* Should they all get paid by the PGA Tour too?
		
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I'm not sure they are ALL independent contractors...they might be simply providing an extension of their existing service, however that is set up. Physio(s), for example, could well actually be provided/made available by PGAT or Tournament, with a 'usage' fee paid by player - or as per the physio's normal practice.
There are certainly dedicated ATP/WTA physios at Wimbledon.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So you agree they are independent contractors ?
		
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Yes. Independent AND contractors. They have signed contracts with the PGA Tour, including accepting restrictions on not playing non-sanctioned events. 

I am an independent contractor, and the same applies.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			$53,000 to get knocked out in Wimbledon Rd 1

£20,000 to get knocked out of snooker world champs, rd 1

£7,500 to get knocked out of darts world champs, rd 1
		
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In all events their are qualifying rounds where loser do not get paid.  

LIV are paying 48 players and their caddies, for a max weeks of the year.  PGA tour pays over 60 players for 48 weeks of the year.  Plus a similar number through it's feeder tour  That's without the other tours which make up the current international golf calender.  
These all have to abide by commercial realities which LIV does not appear to have intention of doing.

Seems to me that LIV supporters are happy for it to break PGA and leave professional golf with just the same 48 players for 14 annual events.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure they are ALL independent contractors...they might be simply providing an extension of their existing service, however that is set up. Physio(s), for example, could well actually be provided/made available by PGAT or Tournament, with a 'usage' fee paid by player - or as per the physio's normal practice.
		
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I expect that golf coaches etc are paid on a retainer or hours worked basis by the player. They aren't paid by the PGA Tour. Some events have on site physios etc but they aren't part pf the travelling circus.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			In all events their are qualifying rounds where loser do not get paid. 

LIV are paying 48 players and their caddies, for a max weeks of the year.  PGA tour pays over 60 players for 48 weeks of the year.  Plus a similar number through it's feeder tour  That's without the other tours which make up the current international golf calender. 
These all have to abide by commercial realities which LIV does not appear to have intention of doing.

Seems to me that LIV supporters are happy for it to break PGA and leave professional golf with just the same 48 players for 14 annual events.
		
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I don't think LIV or its supporters have any intention of looking to break the PGA, ideally they would co-exist. It is a defence, or rather attack, by the PGA against LIV that this is their angle.

There are many aspects of pro's and cons regarding LIV but to my mind, on the subject discussed most this morning, of paying ALL players, I think they have this right. If they push the PGA into all players in a tournament getting something for participating in an event then I think that is a good move for all.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I expect that golf coaches etc are paid on a retainer or hours worked basis by the player. They aren't paid by the PGA Tour. Some events have on site physios etc but they aren't part pf the travelling circus.
		
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I'd agree about that. But see my addition/update to the post you quoted...Tennis bodies ATP/WTA provide physios, at least at majors.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'd agree about that. But see my addition/update to the post you quoted...Tennis bodies ATP/WTA provide physios, at least at majors.
		
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Yes, some golf events do the same. But does Wimbledon pay Novak Djokovic's travelling witch doctor or homeopath?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 4, 2022)

Perhaps it’s the transparency of what LIV is paying all who play that irks many, whereas the 2 existing tours tend to be very cagey about the appearance money that’s paid out


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Seems to me that LIV supporters are happy for it to break PGA and leave professional golf with just the same 48 players for 14 annual events.
		
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Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think LIV or its supporters have any intention of looking to break the PGA, ideally they would co-exist. It is a defence, or rather attack, by the PGA against LIV that this is their angle.

There are many aspects of pro's and cons regarding LIV but to my mind, on the subject discussed most this morning, of paying ALL players, I think they have this right. If they push the PGA into all players in a tournament getting something for participating in an event then I think that is a good move for all.
		
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However, as far as I understand - and I haven't located the rules tht would confirm it - to be able to award OWGR points, a tournament must have a (halfway?) cut and be 72 holes. Those are 2 attributes LIV specifically changed to be 'different'! There may be others, such as it being an 'invitation' tour (and) with no qualifying process. I don't see that changing, so there could well be an impasse. For many - the old timers on the way down (even DJ) probably won't care.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..
		
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No, they are banned because they broke the conditions of the contract they signed.

Which players now signed up with 54 really make the Scottish Open field weaker by their absence?


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think LIV or its supporters have any intention of looking to break the PGA, ideally they would co-exist. It is a defence, or rather attack, by the PGA against LIV that this is their angle.

There are many aspects of pro's and cons regarding LIV but to my mind, on the subject discussed most this morning, of paying ALL players, I think they have this right. If they push the PGA into all players in a tournament getting something for participating in an event then I think that is a good move for all.
		
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If though LIV were to be successful in getting the top 48 players,  then the commercial realities mean that PGA tour could not exist in its current form as it would cease to be attracting the best players in the world. Remaining players would therfore be getting a pay cut not an increase.  It is easy to pay just 48 players especially when you have no need to abide by commercial norms.
I don't see how LIV will offer any encouragment what so ever  to the PGA or other tours to pay more players.  There aim is simply to take the very best players,  to compete then PGA will have to do the same.  So will be forced to pay fewer players ever larger amounts.  The players that are leaving for LIV are the ones that have been pushing for higher rewards at the top,  not for larger rewards at the bottom.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..
		
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Their primary role is 'protection and development of the existing tours'. If temporarily 'weakening' them helps that primary role, then that's what they have to do. It's no different to a company diverting resources to counter a perceived threat from a competitor.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			No, they are banned because they broke the conditions of the contract they signed.
		
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They requested exemptions, which have been granted before for other players.
Those requests were denied by the PGA - knowing full well the players would play anyway. And at that point, the house of cards started to topple. 
The players can break their contracts if they so choose, the players can resign from the tour if they so choose. The PGA could have kept those players on board with their tour if they had so chosen, but they didn’t, and as time passes, they will lose more players, and more investment because of their actions.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..
		
Click to expand...

I suspect Greg Norman wants to see the PGA Tour fail. He has had a chip or two on his shoulder for years, because he doesn't think he got the respect he thinks he deserved. 

The PGA Tour has had a process in place for years for players playing unsanctioned events., Call it protectionism if you like, but why should the PGA Tour provide a product which creates marketable players then a competitor organisation be allowed to exploit that? That isn't a lack of faith in the PGA Tour product, but the LIV Tour has potentially bottomless resources and are not competing in a  commercial battleground. 

If I went to work as contractor for GSK and then decided to do some work for Pfizer on the side, GSK would involve their contract clauses too. They wouldn't be doing so out of resentment and spite, but pricing their brands.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Their primary role is 'protection and development of the existing tours'. If temporarily 'weakening' them helps that primary role, then that's what they have to do. It's no different to a company diverting resources to counter a perceived threat from a competitor.
		
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The DP World Tour has just been weakened for 14 years, hardly class that as ‘temporary’, would you?


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change?   You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts. 
It's happening.  Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed.  
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I suspect Greg Norman wants to see the PGA Tour fail. He has had a chip or two on his shoulder for years, because he doesn't think he got the respect he thinks he deserved.

The PGA Tour has had a process in place for years for players playing unsanctioned events., Call it protectionism if you like, but why should the PGA Tour provide a product which creates marketable players then a competitor organisation be allowed to exploit that? That isn't a lack of faith in the PGA Tour product, but the LIV Tour has potentially bottomless resources and are not competing in a  commercial battleground.

If I went to work as contractor for GSK and then decided to do some work for Pfizer on the side, GSK would involve their contract clauses too. They wouldn't be doing so out of resentment and spite, but pricing their brands.
		
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I’m sure Norman would love to see the PGA Tour fail, especially given the manner of their reaction to the LIV series. But that doesn’t mean golf fans feel the same way.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..
		
Click to expand...

why should the tours just stand back and allow LIV to use their financial wealth to just take all the top golfers away ?

The tours main responsibility is to their own tour and ensuring it’s sustainable - the tours are also pathways for all golfers to gain a career - the LIV tour is purely invitational only and focusing purely on the top golfers ( even though they can’t get them all ) 

You clearly can only see it from the LIV POV but what about the 1000’s of pro golfers who need the tours to gain a career ? 

How about the damage to the sport being caused by a tour that’s based purely on money ? 

All this is being caused by LIV golf - the PGA and other tours are reacting to what LIV golf are attempting to create - LIV aren’t interested in what’s good for golf or the players 

The tour have their rules and expect their members to abide by the rules - if those golfers can’t abide by the rules then you expect they would need to be sanctioned 

And those players knew the consequences of their actions - there appears to be the want from the LIV golf and the golfers who jumped ship to still have the best of both worlds - pure selfishness at the end of the day and imo it’s tough that they are being suspended/banned etc - I’m sure the money they will be given ( as opposed to earned) will compensate them


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			why should the tours just stand back and allow LIV to use their financial wealth to just take all the top golfers away ?

The tours main responsibility is to their own tour and ensuring it’s sustainable - the tours are also pathways for all golfers to gain a career - the LIV tour is purely invitational only and focusing purely on the top golfers ( even though they can’t get them all )

You clearly can only see it from the LIV POV but what about the 1000’s of pro golfers who need the tours to gain a career ?

How about the damage to the sport being caused by a tour that’s based purely on money ?

All this is being caused by LIV golf - the PGA and other tours are reacting to what LIV golf are attempting to create - LIV aren’t interested in what’s good for golf or the players

The tour have their rules and expect their members to abide by the rules - if those golfers can’t abide by the rules then you expect they would need to be sanctioned

And those players knew the consequences of their actions - there appears to be the want from the LIV golf and the golfers who jumped ship to still have the best of both worlds - pure selfishness at the end of the day and imo it’s tough that they are being suspended/banned etc - I’m sure the money they will be given ( as opposed to earned) will compensate them
		
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Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yes, some golf events do the same. But does Wimbledon pay Novak Djokovic's travelling witch doctor or homeopath?
		
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Not sure about those requirements - though I doubt it. But certainly physios. I believe the company you are making reference to is, that Djok has a controlling interest in, actually does do scientific research, just not in a 'traditional' area. As many significant advances in medicine (Penicillin and X-Rays probably being the biggest) have been the results of 'accidents' as opposed to specific research, I've no problem if he spends his money on such developments.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			However, as far as I understand - and I haven't located the rules tht would confirm it - to be able to award OWGR points, a tournament must have a (halfway?) cut and be 72 holes. Those are 2 attributes LIV specifically changed to be 'different'! There may be others, such as it being an 'invitation' tour (and) with no qualifying process. I don't see that changing, so there could well be an impasse. For many - the old timers on the way down (even DJ) probably won't care.
		
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Doesn't Tiger's invitation tournament at the beginning of the season get points? The one where he invites his mates and a few select others? As others have also highlighted, The Masters is by invitation as well, and earns points.

Somebody quoted Hunter Mahan a few pages ago stating he expects the comps to go to 72 holes eventually. No doubt some other reason will be found to exclude them from earning points still. It is all very messy.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.
		
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Which players who would have played the SO are now not because they joined LiV?


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The DP World Tour has just been weakened for 14 years, hardly class that as ‘temporary’, would you?
		
Click to expand...

That's a different argument that actually weakens yours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.
		
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1. Where the players playing in the Scottish Open before they moved to the LIV tour ? Yes 

So it’s the players actions and LIVs actions that have caused this

Why should the PGA ignore their own rules ( and also the ET and the other tours that are supported the PGA ) 

Can you really not see that this is all happening because of LiV - are you really unable to attach any blame at all on LiV golf , Greg Norman and the Saudi government- are they blameless in all this ?


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not sure about those requirements - though I doubt it. But certainly physios. I believe the company you are making reference to is, that Djok has a controlling interest in, actually does do scientific research, just not in a 'traditional' area. As many significant advances in medicine (Penicillin and X-Rays probably being the biggest) have been the results of 'accidents' as opposed to specific research, I've no problem if he spends his money on such developments.
		
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The company Djokovic has an investment in certainly looks quite conventional, but the core science they claim to be looking at is laughably quackish.

The discovery of penicillin or X-Rays is irrelevant and utterly different. And for every penicillin, there are a thousand crazy ideas that didn't work. 

I also don't care if he spends his money on this stuff either, but don't consider it a rational scientific endeavour.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change?   You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts.
It's happening.  Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed.
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.
		
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I think they will go away and fairly quickly.

Players are big names because they win mainly majors or perform in the Ryder Cup. These 5 events cut through to a lot more people than would care for regular tour events. The reason why Reed, BDC, and Koepka are being talked about moving to LIV because they have recently won majors.

Without OWGR most players on LIV will not qualify for majors, they will become former big names. Whereas the majors and Ryder Cups will keep happening bringing new names to the fore and then those players will become the big names.

All the while the Saudi investment fund is throwing money down the drain, at some point they will pull the plug as what they intended is not working


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sure Norman would love to see the PGA Tour fail, especially given the manner of their reaction to the LIV series. But that doesn’t mean golf fans feel the same way.
		
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I am glad you acknowledge that petty vengeance and bad faith are part of the rationale for the LIV Tour. Norman's poisonous personality will probably start to infect LIV Tour HQ soon enough too.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change?   You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts.
It's happening.  Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed. 
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.
		
Click to expand...

Because when someone is pushing something that hard down your throat the easiest way to get some air is to push it back? 

Many years ago we were looking for a new car for Mrs BiM, who was her parents’ primary form of transport at the time and the car needed to reflect their needs, including carrying a wheelchair. We had a shortlist, including the Honda Jazz. After looking at it, I asked the salesman to tell me why I should buy it. His reply was to tell me to look at the other cars on the shortlist and then he’d see me when I came back as he had the best product. And he was right, and we bought the Honda.

If Greg and the Saudis have the best product then tell me about its advantages, without resorting to dissing the alternative products; if you’re right I’ll decide for myself that it’s the right product for me, I’ll come to it of my own accord and I will then spread the word.

Try to bully me into liking it by denigrating the existing product or by telling me I’m not hip or with it for not liking the new format and you’ll get the reaction the LIV tour is currently getting. 

Does anyone really think that if it’s that good we won’t work that out for ourselves without being browbeaten into it?


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## r0wly86 (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Doesn't Tiger's invitation tournament at the beginning of the season get points? The one where he invites his mates and a few select others? As others have also highlighted, The Masters is by invitation as well, and earns points.

Somebody quoted Hunter Mahan a few pages ago stating he expects the comps to go to 72 holes eventually. No doubt some other reason will be found to exclude them from earning points still. It is all very messy.
		
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The Masters is not really an invitational though. The Masters Committee can invite players, but other than the qualification criteria and published and I don't believe it is within their gift not to invite someone who qualifies through those routes


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			The Masters is not really an invitational though. The Masters Committee can invite players, but other than the qualification criteria and published and *I don't believe it is within their gift not to invite someone who qualifies through those routes*

Click to expand...

That might be tested next year. Who knows with Augusta, they seem to be a law unto themselves.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..
		
Click to expand...

PGA would not though be taking on LIV against a commercial background though,  LIV's backers have got endless dosh to back up their sports washing,  the PGA tour does not have that luxery.

THe PGA tour has banned players because they broke the rules which they had signed up to and to protect the organisation they are responsible for.  Time may tell whether thier actions have weakened them, but  more and more top players going ceertainly will and that is not in the interests of the remaining players.  Remember those top players going to LIV have all said they are doing it to spend more time with their families and thus less time playering golf.  Is so then banned or not the tour would have been weekened commercially and therefore there would be less money available for all.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They requested exemptions, which have been granted before for other players.
Those requests were denied by the PGA - knowing full well the players would play anyway. And at that point, the house of cards started to topple.
The players can break their contracts if they so choose, the players can resign from the tour if they so choose. The PGA could have kept those players on board with their tour if they had so chosen, but they didn’t, and as time passes, they will lose more players, and more investment because of their actions.
		
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Great spin!


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			The Masters is not really an invitational though. The Masters Committee can invite players, but other than the qualification criteria and published and I don't believe it is within their gift not to invite someone who qualifies through those routes
		
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In recent years they have not been using discretionary invites. They did so in the past, for sure. IIRC, they used them for Asian players a few times.


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## SyR (Jul 4, 2022)

My take on LIV so far is that it's great being able to watch the golf on YouTube rather than have to pay money to Sky and still be fed adverts constantly. Also it's a bit easier to watch the finale on Saturday night rather than Sunday night when I have to be up at 04:45 on Monday for work.


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## GB72 (Jul 4, 2022)

SyR said:



			My take on LIV so far is that it's great being able to watch the golf on YouTube rather than have to pay money to Sky and still be fed adverts constantly. Also it's a bit easier to watch the finale on Saturday night rather than Sunday night when I have to be up at 04:45 on Monday for work.
		
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I think that this may be a more common view on things, people who are not worried about all the squabbling between LIV and the Tours and are really just happy that there is some golf on a free to air medium.


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## rksquire (Jul 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			However, as far as I understand - and I haven't located the rules tht would confirm it - to be able to award OWGR points, a tournament must have a (halfway?) cut and be 72 holes. Those are 2 attributes LIV specifically changed to be 'different'! There may be others, such as it being an 'invitation' tour (and) with no qualifying process. I don't see that changing, so there could well be an impasse. For many - the old timers on the way down (even DJ) probably won't care.
		
Click to expand...

I think there are exceptions for sure - WGC Matchplay and the Tournament of Champions (limited field events with non-traditional formats) both attract world ranking points I think.  Also, tournaments have been shortened to 54 holes and points awarded (not 100% sure but think this happened last year, maybe a ladies event).

Have to say I watched a lot of LIVs offering on Friday night and the quality of golf was quite good - unpopular opinions aside but it was better than the Irish Open and John Deere..... however, the crowd and support at the Irish Open was sensational.  I really believe the DPWT has missed opportunities in Ireland in the UK.  Would be interesting to see what would happen if LIV ran a tournament at the K Club or Druids for example.

Listened to Justin Thomas & Alan Shipnuck talking about LIV on a podcast - rather interestingly the latter suggests the anti-LIV players (remainers) are upset about the financials and potentially taking money out of their pocket rather than the morality of the source of the money..... could it be that nobody, on either side of the argument, is really being particular honest?  The one thing that struck me was the comment about the PGA Tour being concerned that the Saudi's wanted to 'own golf' - which made me slightly worried that the PGA Tour feel they currently own golf.


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## fenwayrich (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I am glad you acknowledge that petty vengeance and bad faith are part of the rationale for the LIV Tour. Norman's poisonous personality will probably start to infect LIV Tour HQ soon enough too.
		
Click to expand...

Thomas Boswell summed it up perfectly in his artiicle 'Norman Golfing For Greed In Plans For World Tour'. It was a piece written 28 years ago. I suspect the concept festered in Norman's mind until he found someone, anyone, to bankroll it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...ld-tour/9a1e4fbf-87b6-4944-9f00-0b9414c9a28b/


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

rksquire said:



			I think there are exceptions for sure - WGC Matchplay and the Tournament of Champions (limited field events with non-traditional formats) both attract world ranking points I think.  Also, tournaments have been shortened to 54 holes and points awarded (not 100% sure but think this happened last year, maybe a ladies event).

Have to say I watched a lot of LIVs offering on Friday night and the quality of golf was quite good - unpopular opinions aside but it was better than the Irish Open and John Deere..... however, the crowd and support at the Irish Open was sensational.  I really believe the DPWT has missed opportunities in Ireland in the UK.  Would be interesting to see what would happen if LIV ran a tournament at the K Club or Druids for example.

Listened to Justin Thomas & Alan Shipnuck talking about LIV on a podcast - rather interestingly the latter suggests the anti-LIV players (remainers) are upset about the financials and potentially taking money out of their pocket rather than the morality of the source of the money..... could it be that nobody, on either side of the argument, is really being particular honest?  The one thing that struck me was the comment about the PGA Tour being concerned that the Saudi's wanted to 'own golf' - which made me slightly worried that the PGA Tour feel they currently own golf.
		
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I believe they also have to have been around for 1 year.
However, those 'rules' can apparently be over-ridden/ignored. I would expect tournaments that had to be shortened to 54 holes by weather, for example, would likely be allowed to award OWGR points.
However, LIV currently seems to breaks too many for me to be successful - even without the 2 main tours with reps on the approving being against it.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

rksquire said:



			I really believe the DPWT has missed opportunities in Ireland in the UK.  Would be interesting to see what would happen if LIV ran a tournament at the K Club or Druids for example.
		
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Years ago there used to be a larger number of events in the UK. Look at the 1980 European Tour, outside the majors, there were 22 events, and of those 14 were in The UK (including one in the Channel Islands) or Ireland. However, the purses were mostly in the mid 10s of thousand quid range. The same year, The PGA Tour had hardly any events with less than 250k dollars (2.4 US$ = £1 in those days), apart from opposite field events the same week as majors and a few late season events.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			Thomas Boswell summed it up perfectly in his artiicle 'Norman Golfing For Greed In Plans For World Tour'. It was a piece written 28 years ago. I suspect the concept festered in Norman's mind until he found someone, anyone, to bankroll it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...ld-tour/9a1e4fbf-87b6-4944-9f00-0b9414c9a28b/

Click to expand...

Many thanks for that. I had the feeling Norman was involved with some sort of rebel tour many years ago - but that was way before my golfing interest became serious.

That setup/format looks extremely familiar!


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because when someone is pushing something that hard down your throat the easiest way to get some air is to push it back?

Many years ago we were looking for a new car for Mrs BiM, who was her parents’ primary form of transport at the time and the car needed to reflect their needs, including carrying a wheelchair. We had a shortlist, including the Honda Jazz. After looking at it, I asked the salesman to tell me why I should buy it. His reply was to tell me to look at the other cars on the shortlist and then he’d see me when I came back as he had the best product. And he was right, and we bought the Honda.

If Greg and the Saudis have the best product then tell me about its advantages, without resorting to dissing the alternative products; if you’re right I’ll decide for myself that it’s the right product for me, I’ll come to it of my own accord and I will then spread the word.

Try to bully me into liking it by denigrating the existing product or by telling me I’m not hip or with it for not liking the new format and you’ll get the reaction the LIV tour is currently getting.

Does anyone really think that if it’s that good we won’t work that out for ourselves without being browbeaten into it?
		
Click to expand...

Who is ramming liv down your throat?  Who is forcing you to into anything?  I haven't seen one stroke of a liv game yet. 
Liv hasn't got the best product "yet".  They are a start up company. 

All what is happening is different tours fighting for possition. When someone is selling you an alternative they have to "Diss" the other products.  That happens every day. 
You can't blame anyone for protecting what is there's and I get that.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			Thomas Boswell summed it up perfectly in his artiicle 'Norman Golfing For Greed In Plans For World Tour'. It was a piece written 28 years ago. I suspect the concept festered in Norman's mind until he found someone, anyone, to bankroll it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...ld-tour/9a1e4fbf-87b6-4944-9f00-0b9414c9a28b/

Click to expand...

I expect the PGA Tour has also worked to protect itself from fair trade or anti-trust lawsuits since then too.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Who is ramming liv down your throat?  Who is forcing you to into anything?  I haven't seen one stroke of a liv game yet.
Liv hasn't got the best product "yet".  They are a start up company.

All what is happening is different tours fighting for possition. When someone is selling you an alternative they have to "Diss" the other products.  That happens every day.
You can't blame anyone for protecting what is there's and I get that.
		
Click to expand...

If you can’t see who is trying to ram it down your throat on this thread then there is little point discussing that. 

As to a good sales technique, the best salesman will tell you how good the opposition’s product is, and then subtly explain why theirs is better.


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you can’t see who is trying to ram it down your throat on this thread then there is little point discussing that.

As to a good sales technique, the best salesman will tell you how good the opposition’s product is, and then subtly explain why theirs is better.
		
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I haven't read all the posts.  Too many. Perhaps make up you mind away from the forum then.  Greg isn't marching you to the tv


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you can’t see who is trying to ram it down your throat on this thread then there is little point discussing that.

As to a good sales technique, the best salesman will tell you how good the opposition’s product is, and then subtly explain why theirs is better.
		
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Nobody is opening the thread under duress are they?Plenty of people throat ramming by the posters in support of the PGA as well….


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			I haven't read all the posts.  Too many. Perhaps make up you mind away from the forum then.  Greg isn't marching you to the tv
		
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He’s certainly not as it’s not on TV


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			He’s certainly not as it’s not on TV 

Click to expand...

It was on mine…


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## GB72 (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			I haven't read all the posts.  Too many. Perhaps make up you mind away from the forum then.  Greg isn't marching you to the tv
		
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It is not being rammed down my throat, more that as far as my household is concerned, it is the only game in town. No Sky sports means that professional golf effectively does not exist for me save for looking at the leaderboard online for the Majors. Now the option is there to watch some golf so I will take that. If the PGA Tour or the DP Tour were on a free to air medium, that would be different, then I would need to assess the quality of the varying products and decide which to watch but as that will never happen save for maybe to the odd event to show a bit of direct competition to the LIV Tour it means that I have one golf viewing option and so arguments and comparitives are a bit of a moot point.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody is opening the thread under duress are they?Plenty of people throat ramming by the posters in support of the PGA as well….
		
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Oh dear, have I touched a nerve?  

The throat ramming seems to be in one direction, the PGA support seems to provide more structured debate. 

Still, you’ve succeeded in making my mind up for me; I’ll be having nothing to do with LIV if you’re representative of it. 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh dear, have I touched a nerve? 

The throat ramming seems to be in one direction, *the PGA support seems to provide more structured debate.*

Still, you’ve succeeded in making my mind up for me; I’ll be having nothing to do with LIV if you’re representative of it. 👍
		
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If you are wearing PGA glasses it might. I genuinely feel pretty ambivalent about the whole thing so see good and bad on both sides. If you think those backing the PGA on here are dainty wallflowers in their approach then you definitely to buy some more neutral glasses.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 4, 2022)

Personally I would like to see the PGA Tour fail.

I would like to see LIV Tour fail.

I would like to see the best golfers playing on the European Tour every week.

I would like to see the 4 majors as The Open, US Open, Aussie and SA Open.

Global game based over here...


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you are wearing PGA glasses it might. I genuinely feel pretty ambivalent about the whole thing so see good and bad on both sides. If you think those backing the PGA on here are dainty wallflowers in their approach then you definitely to buy some more neutral glasses.
		
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I disagree. There is a difference between arguing in support of the established process than arguing in favour of a new and unproven one. The PGA Tour is unquestionably successful and hardly any of those defecting have failed to make at least a small fortune. The LIV Tour is unapologetically about throwing a huge amount of money of questionable ethical origin, to break the PGA Tour. The laughable thing is those who argue that the LIV Tour is trying to grow the game, attract new audiences, free the poor PGA Tour players from the intolerable hardships of flying NetJets across the country so often. 

And Greg Norman's involvement reeks of ulterior, and not very honourable, motives. 

If the LIV Tour was honest, it would present itself as a way of allowing a bunch of mostly on-the-decline players, and some younger and/or unknowns to make up the numbers, to fill their boots in shorter but apparently louder events just to piss off the PGA Tour whilst sportwashing Saudi money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Personally I would like to see the PGA Tour fail.

I would like to see LIV Tour fail.

I would like to see the best golfers playing on the European Tour every week.

I would like to see the 4 majors as The Open, US Open, Aussie and SA Open.

Global game based over here...

Click to expand...

The full utopian game would be great - US players playing in the USA , UK players in the UK , mainland Europe in Europe et 

Also does China not get a major ? What about South America ? The Middle East ?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The full utopian game would be great - US players playing in the USA , UK players in the UK , mainland Europe in Europe et

Also does China not get a major ? What about South America ? The Middle East ?
		
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You've not read what I've written.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

saving_par said:



			You've not read what I've written.
		
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Ah must have misunderstood when talking about the best European players playing in Europe meaning the US players playing in the US 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I disagree. There is a difference between arguing in support of the established process than arguing in favour of a new and unproven one. The PGA Tour is unquestionably successful and hardly any of those defecting have failed to make at least a small fortune. The LIV Tour is unapologetically about throwing a huge amount of money of questionable ethical origin, to break the PGA Tour. The laughable thing is those who argue that the LIV Tour is trying to grow the game, attract new audiences, free the poor PGA Tour players from the intolerable hardships of flying NetJets across the country so often.

And Greg Norman's involvement reeks of ulterior, and not very honourable, motives.

If the LIV Tour was honest, it would present itself as a way of allowing a bunch of mostly on-the-decline players, and some younger and/or unknowns to make up the numbers, to fill their boots in shorter but apparently louder events just to piss off the PGA Tour whilst sportwashing Saudi money.
		
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Whats wrong with arguing in favour of something new and different (and better than the alternative this weekend in my opinion)?
My kid really enjoyed watching a bit of LIV on Saturday night, in fact came in from a round of golf, and while I sorted his tea, he put it on himself and sat and watched. Had the Irish Open on yesterday, completely different viewing experience and while acknowledging some great golf was played - especially by Meronk, I thought it was pretty dull to watch… putt , putt ,putt, advert break , drive, putt etc etc.
I know some people will have enjoyed it, but it didn’t have the tempo, nor the fun of the LIV event. For me of course.


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Whats wrong with arguing in favour of something new and different (and better than the alternative this weekend in my opinion)?
My kid really enjoyed watching a bit of LIV on Saturday night, in fact came in from a round of golf, and while I sorted his tea, he put it on himself and sat and watched. Had the Irish Open on yesterday, completely different viewing experience and while acknowledging some great golf was played - especially by Meronk, I thought it was pretty dull to watch… putt , putt ,putt, advert break , drive, putt etc etc.
I know some people will have enjoyed it, but it didn’t have the tempo, nor the fun of the LIV event. For me of course.
		
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Yeah, but will your kid still be interested in a month, a year, 5 years' time? 

LIV can have an ADD-friendly product now, but when they go to 72 holes, don't have shotguns each day and therefore don't have lots of shots to choose from in a narrow time period, have larger fields, might be a different viewing experience. 

If PGA Tour players want to defect to LIV, that is up to them, and good luck to them. It is the whining about how the PGA Tour has not been fair to them, and threatening legal action after it was made quite clear what would happen if they defected. Personally, I am glad LIV took Reed, Perez and Na out of my sight. Would they be interested in Grayson Murray too - he seems nicely on-brand.


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I disagree. There is a difference between arguing in support of the established process than arguing in favour of a new and unproven one. The PGA Tour is unquestionably successful and hardly any of those defecting have failed to make at least a small fortune. The LIV Tour is unapologetically about throwing a huge amount of money of questionable ethical origin, to break the PGA Tour. The laughable thing is those who argue that the LIV Tour is trying to grow the game, attract new audiences, free the poor PGA Tour players from the intolerable hardships of flying NetJets across the country so often.

And Greg Norman's involvement reeks of ulterior, and not very honourable, motives.

If the LIV Tour was honest, it would present itself as a way of allowing a bunch of mostly on-the-decline players, and some younger and/or unknowns to make up the numbers, to fill their boots in shorter but apparently louder events just to piss off the PGA Tour whilst sportwashing Saudi money.
		
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly (and said much more eloquently than I could have written)


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yeah, but will your kid still be interested in a month, a year, 5 years' time?

LIV can have an ADD-friendly product now, but when they go to 72 holes, don't have shotguns each day and therefore don't have lots of shots to choose from in a narrow time period, have larger fields, might be a different viewing experience.

If PGA Tour players want to defect to LIV, that is up to them, and good luck to them. It is the whining about how the PGA Tour has not been fair to them, and threatening legal action after it was made quite clear what would happen if they defected. Personally, I am glad LIV took Reed, Perez and Na out of my sight. Would they be interested in Grayson Murray too - he seems nicely on-brand.
		
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I guess at 17 he will be interested in what ever seems the most fun, and based on what we’ve seen so far, that will be LIV.👍


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I guess at 17 he will be interested in what ever seems the most fun, and based on what we’ve seen so far, that will be LIV.👍
		
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Good for him. If he is like any 17 year old I have ever known, he will move on to something else soon. Not necessarily a sustainable audience model.

LIV needs a big name rivalry, and they are hoping it will be BdC vs somebody else. If the top players turn out to be Hudson Swafford and Kevin Na, their audience, including your 17 year old, will likely evaporate. Maybe that is what the team format is for, a hedge against boring winners. Likewise the PGA Tour is probably hoping that Rory and Justin Thomas start to come up against each other in the final round a bit more.


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

The only 'positive' thing about LIV was the lack of ads.
On the negative side was the quality of commentary - which might improve, but I doubt it; the obsession with the team format; and the sheer volume of random shots being switched to/shown with no 'continuity'.  
And that's without considering the ethics of the setup or the obscene prize-money allegedly being paid - all to attract only a couple of real stars, who haven't performed very well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543360896671563778
I can think of a good 50mil plus reasons why he has misplaced his morals


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## Ethan (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543360896671563778
I can think of a good 50mil plus reasons why he has misplaced his morals
		
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To paraphrase whoever said it in a slightly different context (and attributions vary):

Mr Casey, would you play LIV Golf for 50 million pounds?. "Of course"

Would you play for 50 quid?. "Of course not, what kind of golfer do you take me for?"

We have already established that, we are just haggling about the price.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543360896671563778
I can think of a good 50mil plus reasons why he has misplaced his morals
		
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Hypocrites get everywhere don’t they


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 4, 2022)

Blimey people seem to be getting obsessed with this now,spending way too much time discussing it.
Surely there’s more to life.
Just don’t watch it 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## Reemul (Jul 4, 2022)

There are a couple of PGA bangers on here with super rose tinted glasses on definitely. It's almost like the gun crowd and anti abortionists in the US

What is frustrating is when people give new opinions or things from a different perspective they wheel out the same reasoning in fact it feels like they don't even read what is being said, their minds shut off.

I am ambivalent about all of it but this thread along with the footie thread really does show the worst in people and undeniably it is the same people on here doing it.

I find I post less and less these days and the minute those posters start posting (and they seem to get around the topics) i just leave the topic, they really do add nothing to the conversation at all and in fact are a bit of blot on the landscape, like the new home owner in your road that thinks it's ok to leave that old car and sofa on the front lawn in case they need it again.

Shame really.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 4, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544054667411427330
this could get very interesting

I’m guessing Poulter is in using his ET membership ( resigned his PGA I believe )

The question is will Poulter play more in the ET after or just wants to play the Scottish Open

And Pelly response 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544057022492049408


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2022)

Truly believe the best way forward is just allow the players to play whatever tournament that suits them

Don't give Liv Ranking points. The players are then forced to play PGA events to keep their rankings up unless ofc they happy to just take the cash

Even with 14 weeks of Liv next season their is room for both, long as the majors and the decent PGA /DP events remain .. that's all that matters


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## BiMGuy (Jul 4, 2022)

Poulter playing the Scottish will make the field worse. 

What happened to wanting to play fewer events?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Hypocrites get everywhere don’t they
		
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Really enjoying Liv but that was cringe! 

It reminded me of the Simpsons 

"Pele is king of the soccer field.. to be king of the kitchen use cresfield wax paper .. " is handed big swag bag


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Personally I would like to see the PGA Tour fail.

I would like to see LIV Tour fail.

I would like to see the best golfers playing on the European Tour every week.

I would like to see the 4 majors as The Open, US Open, Aussie and SA Open.

Global game based over here...

Click to expand...

And the tooth fairy will fly in to present the prizes!


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## ger147 (Jul 4, 2022)

Poulter's ban from the Scottish Open has been lifted so he'll be teeing it up at the The Renaissance Club later this week.


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

Imagine if poulter won. 🤣


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Imagine if poulter won. 🤣
		
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My imagination isnt up to it!


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

ger147 said:



			Poulter's ban from the Scottish Open has been lifted so he'll be teeing it up at the The Renaissance Club later this week.
		
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He has a pretty good record in this event, though it's not normally a particularly high rated tournament - the (aged) multiplier from last year's tournament was 0.57 - same as the 'traditionally weak' John Deere's


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## sunshine (Jul 4, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps it’s the transparency of what LIV is paying all who play that irks many, whereas the 2 existing tours tend to be very cagey about the appearance money that’s paid out
		
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What transparency? I’ve just heard rumours and speculation


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps it’s the transparency of what LIV is paying all who play that irks many, whereas the 2 existing tours tend to be very cagey about the appearance money that’s paid out
		
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My understanding is that the existing tours don't pay 'appearance money' - just Prize Money. Individual venues/sponsors, on the other hand, might well pay such incentives.


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## AussieKB (Jul 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			The Masters is not really an invitational though. The Masters Committee can invite players, but other than the qualification criteria and published and I don't believe it is within their gift not to invite someone who qualifies through those routes
		
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The Masters is an invite Tournament, I remember when Langer was practicing on the course and holding up Members, he was told that even though he was a Masters Champion he still needed to be invited.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The Masters is an invite Tournament, I remember when Langer was practicing on the course and holding up Members, he was told that even though he was a Masters Champion he still needed to be invited.
		
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Says everything why I would never want to be a member there even if I was a billionaire - they were obviously wrong, but wanted to let him know they had more right to be there than him. Probably had a chuckle to their caddies in their whites onesies!


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## SyR (Jul 5, 2022)

Honestly I think this appeal is the best thing for the European Tour (if it gets upheld). They can show "willing" to ban the LIV players while maybe having LIV players join their events in the future. The ET is between the PGA Tour and LIV League so has the most to lose imo if LIV remains.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 5, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The moral aspect is something that we need to move on from in this discussion, the list could be endless for everyone’s moral compass, kill animals just so we can eat their meat, drink Russian vodka, supporting the war against Ukraine, buying consumer goods from china, supportive the regime for child labour, Don’t go to Dubai, built on slavery, the list could go on and on, judging by this thread there are a lot of people living like absolute angels who don’t put a foot out of place.
		
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The usual appeal to apathy and the idea that any attempt at morality is pointless in an immoral world.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 5, 2022)

SyR said:



			Honestly I think this appeal is the best thing for the European Tour (if it gets upheld). They can show "willing" to ban the LIV players while maybe having LIV players join their events in the future. The ET is between the PGA Tour and LIV League so has the most to lose imo if LIV remains.
		
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For clarity 




			In a statement, Pelley added: "It is important to remember, however, this is only a stay of the sanctions imposed, pending the hearing of the players' appeal as to whether those sanctions were appropriate.
		
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## BiMGuy (Jul 5, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Says everything why I would never want to be a member there even if I was a billionaire - they were obviously wrong, but wanted to let him know they had more right to be there than him. Probably had a chuckle to their caddies in their whites onesies!
		
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If you didn’t want to be a member of a club where people acted like that, you’d not be a member at any club!


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well in reality, the bit that’s worth watching is only 36 holes anyway. Cut after day 1, then 2x18 hole rounds - why not, it wouldn’t make any difference to the final outcome.
		
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I mean apart from being statistical nonsense, your idea is tosh. Why not reduce it to 18 if 'anything before it makes no difference' ?


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m pretty sure that Mickleson even before moving wouldn’t be challenging the top level again unless it was on the champions tour

Same with the likes of McDowell , Kaymer , Westwood , Garcia and Poulter
		
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McDowell, Kaymer, Westwood, Mickelson, Garcia, Poulter. 

Combined scores in the two events of +64. None of them so far have broken par for the 54 hole totals.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The Masters is an invite Tournament, I remember when Langer was practicing on the course and holding up Members, he was told that even though he was a Masters Champion he still needed to be invited.
		
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Augusta National is absolutely an invite only place, but the Masters Tournament is not an invitational. The qualification routes are published, and I don't believe the Masters Committee can uninvite someone who has qualified:


Masters Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
US Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
British Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
PGA Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
Winners of The Players Championship (Three years)
Current Olympic Gold Medalist (One year)
Current US Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year) and the runner-up to the current US Amateur Champion
Current British Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year)
Current Asia-Pacific Amateur Champion
Current Latin America Amateur Champion
Current US Mid-Amateur Champion
The first 12 players, including ties, in the previous year's Masters Tournament
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's US Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's British Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's PGA Championship
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters
Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
The 50 leaders on the Final Official World Golf Ranking for the previous calendar year
The 50 leaders on the Official World Golf Ranking published during the week prior to the current Masters Tournament
These are the published qualification routes. The committee can invite people who have not qualified with these methods. It is usually only 1 or 2, they have in the past invited players on the Asian Tour in an attempt to get more viewers, they have also invited big names who have possibly dropped down, I think Montgomery was invited once a few years back.

Langer qualifies by being a former champion, he is not invited, he has a lifetime exemption, but despite this, I am not so sure about that anecdote because I don't think members can play on the course for a couple months before the Masters, and past champions can't just rock up whenever they want to play


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Augusta National is absolutely an invite only place, but the Masters Tournament is not an invitational. The qualification routes are published, and I don't believe the Masters Committee can uninvite someone who has qualified:


Masters Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
US Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
British Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
PGA Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
Winners of The Players Championship (Three years)
Current Olympic Gold Medalist (One year)
Current US Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year) and the runner-up to the current US Amateur Champion
Current British Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year)
Current Asia-Pacific Amateur Champion
Current Latin America Amateur Champion
Current US Mid-Amateur Champion
The first 12 players, including ties, in the previous year's Masters Tournament
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's US Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's British Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's PGA Championship
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters
Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
The 50 leaders on the Final Official World Golf Ranking for the previous calendar year
The 50 leaders on the Official World Golf Ranking published during the week prior to the current Masters Tournament
These are the published qualification routes. The committee can invite people who have not qualified with these methods. It is usually only 1 or 2, they have in the past invited players on the Asian Tour in an attempt to get more viewers, they have also invited big names who have possibly dropped down, I think Montgomery was invited once a few years back.

Langer qualifies by being a former champion, he is not invited, he has a lifetime exemption, but despite this, I am not so sure about that anecdote because I don't think members can play on the course for a couple months before the Masters, and past champions can't just rock up whenever they want to play
		
Click to expand...

The Masters used to issue special invited under previous Chairmen, but have stopped doing that and now stick to the criteria above. They also cut back on the older winners who used to turn up and shoot 85, so players like Woosnam and Lyle have now been invited to become non-playing. Masters winners are not members and need to get agreement from the club to play outside normal practice times. Some past winners have been invited to become full members, such as Nicklaus and Palmer, I think.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Things need to change in the majors - they have to be refreshed at this stage....
		
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No they don't!


Backsticks said:



			...54 holes would be just part of an evolution to teams as part of a longer term plan. Teams chosen for each major by the respective organisation running it. Then a league table according to the performance of each of those teams in the 4 majors each year.....
		
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Daft idea. To quote McEnroe...'You cannot be serious'!


Backsticks said:



			...A shotgun start on the 3rd day would widen the appeal beyond todays older profile of golf fan, and _bring in the youth that are essential to growing the game_....
		
Click to expand...

I very much doubt it. Can you explain why/how? The focus of _this_ older profile fan is on the leading few groups and anyone else making a charge - a combo already well serviced by the existing format. The 54 holes/shotgun start/team event is just a set of gimmicks to differentiate LIV (or GWS's previous attempt at a rebel tour) from the regular one. 


Backsticks said:



			...The winning team would become the real focus of the majors rather than the individuals lifting dusty silverware that has been going since men won then using hickory shafts.
		
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Competitive Golf is a primarily an individual sport. Which events get more recognition/emphasis at your club and 'board' comps? Club Championships or the occasional Shotgun start team event?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

So Poulters main aim apart from money was to be able to play less and have more family time - yet he is now looking to appeal so that he can play more 🤷‍♂️ 

And did they really not understand the consequences 🤔

It was interesting that he said he fully supports the ET - yet he has played 8 times in 3 years there. 3 of them in the Middle East , the Scottish Open to try and get into the Open 

They don’t support the ET - they play when the convienent to him and I’m guessing he needs to play scotland to get in the Open


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So Poulters main aim apart from money was to be able to play less and have more family time - yet he is now looking to appeal so that he can play more *🤷‍♂️

And did they really not understand the consequences 🤔

It was interesting that he said he fully supports the ET - yet he has played 8 times in 3 years there. 3 of them in the Middle East , the Scottish Open to try and get into the Open

They don’t support the ET - they play when the convienent to him and I’m guessing he needs to play scotland to get in the Open
		
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I don't think he said that he would ONLY play in LIV events though, did he?

Are you saying that because he wants to play in an event outside the LIV Tour, that now means he would actually be playing more golf than when LIV did not exist? Personally, I think your opening line is completely baseless (plus also forgetting that in LIV he also gets an extra day in the week off).

As for the rest, I don't know the detail of Poulter's previous playing record. Has he played the minimum number of events the European Tour require for most seasons? If so, he is effectively supporting them under the guidelines they set out. Outside of that, all players will set their schedule to best suit them. They are not charity cases, they are effectively running their own business, and also trying to set out their schedules to try and optimise their performances when it matters.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Augusta National is absolutely an invite only place, but the Masters Tournament is not an invitational. The qualification routes are published, and I don't believe the Masters Committee can uninvite someone who has qualified:


Masters Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
US Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
British Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
PGA Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
Winners of The Players Championship (Three years)
Current Olympic Gold Medalist (One year)
Current US Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year) and the runner-up to the current US Amateur Champion
Current British Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year)
Current Asia-Pacific Amateur Champion
Current Latin America Amateur Champion
Current US Mid-Amateur Champion
The first 12 players, including ties, in the previous year's Masters Tournament
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's US Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's British Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's PGA Championship
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters
Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
The 50 leaders on the Final Official World Golf Ranking for the previous calendar year
The 50 leaders on the Official World Golf Ranking published during the week prior to the current Masters Tournament
These are the published qualification routes. The committee can invite people who have not qualified with these methods. It is usually only 1 or 2, they have in the past invited players on the Asian Tour in an attempt to get more viewers, they have also invited big names who have possibly dropped down, I think Montgomery was invited once a few years back.

Langer qualifies by being a former champion, he is not invited, he has a lifetime exemption, but despite this, I am not so sure about that anecdote because I don't think members can play on the course for a couple months before the Masters, and past champions can't just rock up whenever they want to play
		
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I believe you've got it slightly wrong....
Those criteria are the *qualifying criteria for receiving an invite to The Masters* - subtle but important difference - as it's not just the golf that's part of 'The Masters tradition'.


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## AussieKB (Jul 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Augusta National is absolutely an invite only place, but the Masters Tournament is not an invitational. The qualification routes are published, and I don't believe the Masters Committee can uninvite someone who has qualified:


Masters Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
US Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
British Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
PGA Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
Winners of The Players Championship (Three years)
Current Olympic Gold Medalist (One year)
Current US Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year) and the runner-up to the current US Amateur Champion
Current British Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year)
Current Asia-Pacific Amateur Champion
Current Latin America Amateur Champion
Current US Mid-Amateur Champion
The first 12 players, including ties, in the previous year's Masters Tournament
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's US Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's British Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's PGA Championship
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters
Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
The 50 leaders on the Final Official World Golf Ranking for the previous calendar year
The 50 leaders on the Official World Golf Ranking published during the week prior to the current Masters Tournament
These are the published qualification routes. The committee can invite people who have not qualified with these methods. It is usually only 1 or 2, they have in the past invited players on the Asian Tour in an attempt to get more viewers, they have also invited big names who have possibly dropped down, I think Montgomery was invited once a few years back.

Langer qualifies by being a former champion, he is not invited, he has a lifetime exemption, but despite this, I am not so sure about that anecdote because I don't think members can play on the course for a couple months before the Masters, and past champions can't just rock up whenever they want to play
		
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Just for you....
https://golf.com/news/tournaments/augusta-national-members-masters/


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think he said that he would ONLY play in LIV events though, did he?

Are you saying that because he wants to play in an event outside the LIV Tour, that now means he would actually be playing more golf than when LIV did not exist? Personally, I think your opening line is completely baseless (plus also forgetting that in LIV he also gets an extra day in the week off).

As for the rest, I don't know the detail of Poulter's previous playing record. Has he played the minimum number of events the European Tour require for most seasons? If so, he is effectively supporting them under the guidelines they set out. Outside of that, all players will set their schedule to best suit them. They are not charity cases, they are effectively running their own business, and also trying to set out their schedules to try and optimise their performances when it matters.
		
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Poulter has played 11 times on the DPWT in the past 2 years not including Majors and WGCs which count for the R2D as well - he'd be playing those if he wasn't a DPWT member
6 out of 27 events last year were solely DPWT events..


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Poulter has played 11 times on the DPWT in the past 2 years not including Majors and WGCs which count for the R2D as well - he'd be playing those if he wasn't a DPWT member
6 out of 27 events last year were solely DPWT events..
		
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Does that tie in with Liverpoolphils statement that he has played 8 times in 3 years there? I also suspect Covid had an impact within the last 3 years?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

Poulter will also be fighting for his right to be considered for future Ryder Cup rolls, and those others that have chosen to play LIV. It’s much bigger than one or two players, the legality of the suspensions and bans needs to be challenged and hopefully overturned - for the long term benefit of the game.


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Does that tie in with Liverpoolphils statement that he has played 8 times in 3 years there? I also suspect Covid had an impact within the last 3 years?
		
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Looking back to 2018/19 he played 7 and 9 DPWT events out of 27 and 26 events played....so not turned his back on DPWT but not exactly making it a priority


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

The ET did a lot of bending to ensure that the guys that mainly played on the PGA tour were still eligible to play in the Ryder Cup - rules were changed to suit them and to ensure they at least contributed to the ET 

They aren’t going to bend the rules for the players that have gone to the LIV and they shouldn’t - Poulter and Co fully understood the risks of playing in events that needed a release - events that went up against ET events that have been around for a while - if Poulter and Co really cared about the ET and Ryder Cup they would have been in Ireland not Portland 

They want to have a piece of cake from it all without any personal sacrifices - well it doesn’t work like that , let’s hope that a young pro that needs a kick start doesn’t miss out in Scotland now 

And there needs to stop these taglines “benefit of the game” - what benefit does the game get from players being given multi millions just turn up for events ? How is that benefitting golf ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ET did a lot of bending to ensure that the guys that mainly played on the PGA tour were still eligible to play in the Ryder Cup - rules were changed to suit them and to ensure they at least contributed to the ET

They aren’t going to bend the rules for the players that have gone to the LIV and they shouldn’t - Poulter and Co fully understood the risks of playing in events that needed a release - events that went up against ET events that have been around for a while - if Poulter and Co really cared about the ET and Ryder Cup they would have been in Ireland not Portland

They want to have a piece of cake from it all without any personal sacrifices - well it doesn’t work like that , let’s hope that a young pro that needs a kick start doesn’t miss out in Scotland now

And there needs to stop these taglines “benefit of the game” - what benefit does the game get from players being given multi millions just turn up for events ? How is that benefitting golf ?
		
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The benefit is it’s fun, and easy to watch. Golf is an afternoon or morning out with your mates having fun, not a 4 day tournament where you get told to fk off after two days if you’ve played badly. 
I absolutely guarantee that watching LIV golf will raise the awareness of the game to those that have shown no or only a passing interest, way more than the vast majority of tour events that are behind a paywall will.


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2022)

All tournaments should be restricted to 54 players...that's how you grow the game.
Fewer players = bigger game


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

One notion that has been dragged up with LIV is the idea that it is unfair that these professional golfers don't get paid if they miss the cut, and this has been compared to baseball and basketball where a lot of players get megabucks whether their teams win, lose or draw. 

But the players on those teams don't claim to be "independent contractors", they don't get to chose to play one match and then skip the next, or clear off to play baseball in another country. 

One other difference between golf and other sports is the variation in performance. Look at world number 1, Scottie Scheffler. Despite choosing his events, his recent finishes have ranged from 1st to missed cut (PGA) and T55 (Players). You don't see Steph Curry score 30 points in one game, then 2 points in the next. Usain Bolt didn't win one race and come 7th in the next. 

Golf performance is inherently more variable and it seems simply wrong to pay players for finishing in the bottom half of the field. It is a meritocracy and the players get plaid pretty damn well. 

Charles Howell III has won $42 million career dollars, plus endorsements. Undoubtedly a very good player, but he has 3 career victories in 22 years as a pro, and typically has 3 or 4 top 10 finishes a season. Last season he pulled in almost a million dollars with T9 in The Players his best finish. I don't think he needs paid for missing the cut too.


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## Slab (Jul 5, 2022)

Just an FYI, the field size of the Scottish Open will be increased. No one will be dropped


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The ET did a lot of bending to ensure that the guys that mainly played on the PGA tour were still eligible to play in the Ryder Cup - rules were changed to suit them and to ensure they at least contributed to the ET

They aren’t going to bend the rules for the players that have gone to the LIV and they shouldn’t* - Poulter and Co fully understood the risks of playing in events that needed a release - events that went up against ET events that have been around for a while - if Poulter and Co really cared about the ET and Ryder Cup they would have been in Ireland not Portland

They want to have a piece of cake from it all without any personal sacrifices - well it doesn’t work like that , let’s hope that a young pro that needs a kick start doesn’t miss out in Scotland now

And there needs to stop these taglines “benefit of the game” - what benefit does the game get from players being given multi millions just turn up for events ? How is that benefitting golf ?
		
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So, the European Tour were willing to bend the rules to suit the themselves. So, the ET want their cake and eat it as well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The benefit is it’s fun, and easy to watch. Golf is an afternoon or morning out with your mates having fun, not a 4 day tournament where you get told to fk off after two days if you’ve played badly.
I absolutely guarantee that watching LIV golf will raise the awareness of the game to those that have shown no or only a passing interest, way more than the vast majority of tour events that are behind a paywall will.
		
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Who benefits from Poulter being given x amount of millions for turning up ?

Golf or Poulter ?

what about the £125mil plus BDC was given ? Is that a benefit to the sport or to BDC ?

you can keep going but sport doesn’t always benefit when vast amounts of money are brought into an already rich game

There will be many who believe that the riches offered within football have ruined the game 

Here is a bunch of events that have huge amounts of money , are restricted by invite only and have reduce the amount of golf on show ? Is less more now ? 

LiV golf is not been done for the benefit of the game , it’s not been done to grow the game , it’s someone trying to rock the boat , muscle in and create something that wasn’t needed , is sportswashing and using billions to fund it 

People will look at the level of money being given - the source of the money and be appalled by it


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			One notion that has been dragged up with LIV is the idea that it is unfair that these professional golfers don't get paid if they miss the cut, and this has been compared to baseball and basketball where a lot of players get megabucks whether their teams win, lose or draw.

But the players on those teams don't claim to be "independent contractors", they don't get to chose to play one match and then skip the next, or clear off to play baseball in another country.

One other difference between golf and other sports is the variation in performance. Look at world number 1, Scottie Scheffler. Despite choosing his events, his recent finishes have ranged from 1st to missed cut (PGA) and T55 (Players). You don't see Steph Curry score 30 points in one game, then 2 points in the next. Usain Bolt didn't win one race and come 7th in the next.

Golf performance is inherently more variable and it seems simply wrong to pay players for finishing in the bottom half of the field. It is a meritocracy and the players get plaid pretty damn well.

Charles Howell III has won $42 million career dollars, plus endorsements. Undoubtedly a very good player, but he has 3 career victories in 22 years as a pro, and typically has 3 or 4 top 10 finishes a season. Last season he pulled in almost a million dollars with T9 in The Players his best finish. I don't think he needs paid for missing the cut too.
		
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Maybe some of the bigger players realise that, if they choose to play on any regular PGA / ET event, that will automatically make that even more attractive to the fans that follow them, and also make them more attractive in pulling in sponsorship to that event. So, maybe it frustrates them that their presence can generate a huge amount for the event / tour (even if they miss the cut), yet if they then miss the cut, they get no benefit at all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, the European Tour were willing to bend the rules to suit the themselves. So, the ET want their cake and eat it as well.
		
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Is that not what the two main tours do ? Protect themselves ? Do you expect the tours to not do that ? The Ryder Cup is huge for them so they will protect it 

Should they have just shot themselves in the foot instead ? 

Why do you think they are getting closer links to the PGA Tour ? 

The ET provide a platform way beyond just the main tour , it’s there to look after all it’s members not just a few


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that not what the two main tours do ? Protect themselves ? Do you expect the tours to not do that ? The Ryder Cup is huge for them so they will protect it

Should they have just shot themselves in the foot instead ?

Why do you think they are getting closer links to the PGA Tour ?

The ET provide a platform way beyond just the main tour , it’s there to look after all it’s members not just a few
		
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Absolutely. However, it seems hypocritical to be happy for the tours to "bend rules" to suit themselves, and yet get all angry and upset when players make decisions that they feel benefit themselves.


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2022)

If growing the game were the aim, and if paying those in the game that need it more were important, it wouldn''t be the top 54 players that they were looking to invest in. It would be those on lower tours, including the Korn Ferry & Challenge tours.

Alfie Plant's Dad recently posted a video on twitter suggesting that only the top 3 finishers each week come out on top financially.
So I don't think we need worry about the top players and their caddies not getting paid if they miss cuts. It's the future stars, who come from the feeder tours than need to be encouraged and funded better.
That's how they can grow the game. Sod the big names, who should, if they've been sensible with their finances, be financially secure (more than secure).


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## BiMGuy (Jul 5, 2022)

Can someone please explain how watching LiV players hit shots is ‘more fun’ than watching non LiV players hit shots?


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## rksquire (Jul 5, 2022)

Views are always bias towards your own personal opinion, but it is unfair to misrepresent of players comments / reasons - regardless of opinion of them and what they are doing.  Just because Poulter wants to play the Scottish Open doesn't mean he wants to play more.  His appeal is to ensure (only if successful) that he has options to play as many times as he wants which will be less than his schedule for the last 15-20 years but more than just LIV or 0.  The criticism really should be that he wants his cake and to eat it too.

I feel the PGA Tour have been much more clear about the consequences - and the thing about consequence is that it has to be clear what rules and membership agreements have been broken.  At this moment in time that isn't clear and I haven't actually seen (from my knowledge!) this clarified in 164 pages of forum posts.  Pelley's statement also never clear it up; the fine is one thing but the event exclusions were co-sanctioned PGA Tour Events - this would suggest to me it's more clear there's been an infringement of the PGA Tour rules and agreements, but again that's only speculation - the appeal will bring more clarity.

I'm not a fan of any of Pelley's statement thus far; the latest one where it bigs up the charitable status of the McManus event fails to mention some very obvious negative issues... eg 9 of the worlds top 10 players have teed it up at Adare Manor, sandwiched between the Irish Open and the Scottish Open - the timing of the event has surely damaged the field for both ranking tournaments.  Yet, presumably, waivers have been handed out for these.  Waivers have also been handed out historically, so there's precedent for allowing players to do other things.  I understand the argument that it harms the 'product' but as others have pointed out, Poulter, for example, has played 8 times on the DPWT in 3 years, so what harm is there in awarding him his waiver?  Also, as Pelley states, the field for the Scottish Open will increase beyond 156 thereby showing some proactivity and a willingness to bend the rules - who'd have thought it's possible to find solutions to problems when you put your mind to it! 

GMac at least has indicated he won't follow a legal route at this point; he may benefit from others legal recourse, but despite merited criticism he remains respectfully disrespectful of the hand that fed him for decades.

On a slight side issue, as the Usyk v Joshua build-up gathers momentum as the Saudi make a play to own boxing, I'll be keen to see the link to Usyk being asked "Is there anywhere you wouldn't fight for money?  For example if Putin offered $1billion to fight in Moscow...".  It won't happen, but there does appear to be a double standard when it comes to the golf and the level of scrutiny being applied - is Golf really the last bastion of sporting integrity?


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Can someone please explain how watching LiV players hit shots is ‘more fun’ than watching non LiV players hit shots?
		
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From my point of view, because they are not on Sky and so I can actually watch LIV players hit shots rather than just imagine what shots they may be hitting


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## Beezerk (Jul 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Can someone please explain how watching LiV players hit shots is ‘more fun’ than watching non LiV players hit shots?
		
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Well it’s free for a start lol.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe some of the bigger players realise that, if they choose to play on any regular PGA / ET event, that will automatically make that even more attractive to the fans that follow them, and also make them more attractive in pulling in sponsorship to that event. So, maybe it frustrates them that their presence can generate a huge amount for the event / tour (even if they miss the cut), yet if they then miss the cut, they get no benefit at all.
		
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They don't attract many fans to the last 2 rounds, though. Would players be willing to see the same overall purses divided across all players rather than just those who miss the cut?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who benefits from Poulter being given x amount of millions for turning up ?

Golf or Poulter ?

what about the £125mil plus BDC was given ? Is that a benefit to the sport or to BDC ?

you can keep going but sport doesn’t always benefit when vast amounts of money are brought into an already rich game

There will be many who believe that the riches offered within football have ruined the game

Here is a bunch of events that have huge amounts of money , are restricted by invite only and have reduce the amount of golf on show ? Is less more now ?

LiV golf is not been done for the benefit of the game , it’s not been done to grow the game , it’s someone trying to rock the boat , muscle in and create something that wasn’t needed , is sportswashing and using billions to fund it

People will look at the level of money being given - the source of the money and be appalled by it
		
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The money invested in Poulter and BDC etc is just that, an investment in a new venture. They have been brought in to give the series strong foundations on which to build, to draw the crowds and golfing worlds attention, and they have 100% succeeded in doing that. The stars of the series maybe Koepka, DJ, etc, or in a few years cut may be some players that have developed on the LIV series - Poulter was not brought in to be challenging for wins on the coming years. 
The pro game has been crying out for something to make it more appealing to the masses, the LIV series fills that gap. And yes, less is more, without too much trouble I watched pretty much all of the first event - I simply could not be arsed to sit down and watch 4 days of a mundane tour event - assuming the coverage was even available.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			They don't attract many fans to the last 2 rounds, though. Would players be willing to see the same overall purses divided across all players rather than just those who miss the cut?
		
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By that stage, many fans that tuned in to the first 2 rounds have already invested themselves into the event, and will continue to watch as the leaderboard shapes up. Fans who tuned in originally to see the likes of DJ or Bryson will have got to see another player(s), who they may never have heard of, have a great first 2 rounds, and then continue to watch that player(s) through the weekend. These relatively unknown players get themselves on the map, because many fans originally tuned in to see a high profile player. Furthermore, I don't think sponsors and broadcasters take away some of their investment if high profile players do not make the cut?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Absolutely. However, it seems hypocritical to be happy for the tours to "bend rules" to suit themselves, and yet get all angry and upset when players make decisions that they feel benefit themselves.
		
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The Tour aren’t getting “angry and upset” - they are just applying their rules to protect themselves 

The players as they keep saying are “self employed” etc so they can make their own choices when and where they play - it will be up to each events and tour to decide if those players are allowed to enter that competition 

All seems fair to me


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Well it’s free for a start lol.
		
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And it's louder...


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And it's louder...
		
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At my age, that helps


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			From my point of view, because they are not on Sky and so I can actually watch LIV players hit shots rather than just imagine what shots they may be hitting

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I had a look on the Friday I think it was and for me the positive is that it’s free to air - that will always be a good thing and imo it’s something that all the majors should be etc - unfortunately it’s hard to do that when the governing bodies sell the rights to the highest bidder 

On the coverage a few things stood out 

1. The commentary- was “enthusiastic” if a bit shouty at times and didn’t seem to flow 

2. You did see lots of shots but it seemed to just jump from shot to shot and you really didn’t get a feel about what was happening when they were showing shots , it didn’t seem very structured- maybe because everyone is on the course they are just trying to get it all in 

But I don’t think anyone will ever complain about golf or indeed sport being free to air 

And if one good thing can come out of this maybe the tours need to look at that - other sports are starting to allow more sports to be free to air during big events etc and imo the worst thing to happen was losing the Open to Sky


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Tour aren’t getting “angry and upset” - they are just applying their rules to protect themselves

The players as they keep saying are “self employed” etc so they can make their own choices when and where they play - it will be up to each events and tour to decide if those players are allowed to enter that competition

All seems fair to me
		
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I wasn't talking about the Tour, I was talking about you. I was getting the impression you were getting angry / upset with the players who decided to sign up to LIV. I was judging this on the monumental amount of time and effort you have put into voicing your opinions on this thread, so you obviously feel strongly about it. You seem to be throwing any potential reason you can possibly think off to shine a negative light on the players, to the point I have no idea which opinions you genuinely have, and what statements you are just throwing in there as you think they can back up the "LIV players are bad" argument. This criticism is not necessarily solely towards you, I probably get this impression from some others, on both sides of the fence.

Today, in post 3280, you seemed to be suggesting Poulters reasoning of wanting more time was rubbish, simply because he wanted to play in an event outside LIV. This of course was a silly argument. You said he does not support the European Tour, as he has only played 8 times in 3 years there (although others have disputed your figures, and a quick google from myself seems to show your figures don't make sense). Your comment that he only plays when it is convenient to him, I'm guessing, wasn't meant as a positive comment towards Poulter? You used it to try and back up your argument he does not support the ET. However, does he have to play any ET events at all? There are plenty of other players on the PGA Tour who do not play as many ET events as Poulter, and I'm sure Poulter could potentially have a more comfortable schedule by playing less ET events (especially in recent years). However, he still appears to ensure that he commits enough ET events on his own schedule. It is not an either/or situation. A player can make an effort to support a Tour, whilst still picking and choosing events that best fit their schedule.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Tour aren’t getting “angry and upset” - they are just applying their rules to protect themselves

*The players as they keep saying are “self employed” etc so they can make their own choices when and where they play* - it will be up to each events and tour to decide if those players are allowed to enter that competition

All seems fair to me
		
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But they have signed contracts which include limitations on playing elsewhere, among other restrictions.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I don’t think anyone will ever complain about golf or indeed sport being free to air
		
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I also agree with the principal of free to air, but Liv is a bait and switch. There are only two possible future revenue models

1. Advertising.
2. Subscription.

I can see a future where a Liv App exists as a subscription service. It is the same problem that other broadcasters are dealing with at the moment in fighting for audience share.

YouTube is moving to a combination of Advertising AND Subscription. So I'd say to those enjoying "free golf" to enjoy this period while it lasts, if you can.


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## Depreston (Jul 5, 2022)

231,000 people on the bbc test match live coverage page puts the LIV numbers into perspective


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2022)

Depreston said:



			231,000 people on the bbc test match live coverage page puts the LIV numbers into perspective
		
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That can be deceptive as I can have the live text of the Test Match on subltly at my desk but not a Youtube golf event. In fact Youtube may even be blocked but BBC Is not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wasn't talking about the Tour, I was talking about you. I was getting the impression you were getting angry / upset with the players who decided to sign up to LIV. I was judging this on the monumental amount of time and effort you have put into voicing your opinions on this thread, so you obviously feel strongly about it. You seem to be throwing any potential reason you can possibly think off to shine a negative light on the players, to the point I have no idea which opinions you genuinely have, and what statements you are just throwing in there as you think they can back up the "LIV players are bad" argument. This criticism is not necessarily solely towards you, I probably get this impression from some others, on both sides of the fence.
		
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Nope not angry or upset 🤷‍♂️ It’s just a debate at the end of the day and one where I hope people don’t start pointing fingers at posters 🙄

People have strong opinions on both sides and I would hope people just debate the opinions as opposed to the poster 

And certainly no “monumental effort” - but let’s get back to the subject 




			Today, in post 3280, you seemed to be suggesting Poulters reasoning of wanting more time was rubbish, simply because he wanted to play in an event outside LIV. This of course was a silly argument.
		
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I’m confused when it was decided what was a silly argument or not 

And also have seen the notion about wanting to play less but then also wanting to play more been banded around by a number of people on social media - I think it’s a valid argument 




			You said he does not support the European Tour, as he has only played 8 times in 3 years there (although others have disputed your figures, and a quick google from myself seems to show your figures don't make sense). Your comment that he only plays when it is convenient to him, I'm guessing, wasn't meant as a positive comment towards Poulter?
		
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Yes I don’t believe Poulter supports the European Tour as he suggests he does - he supports himself - his choice to do that but certainly he shouldnt be making out its for the love of the tour etc - at least be honest with himself - he wants to play in Scotland for his own benefit 



			You used it to try and back up your argument he does not support the ET. However, does he have to play any ET events at all?
		
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if he wants to play in the Ryder Cup and keep European Tour membership then yes he does have to play in a specific amount of events 🤷‍♂️




			There are plenty of other players on the PGA Tour who do not play as many ET events as Poulter, and I'm sure Poulter could potentially have a more comfortable schedule by playing less ET events (especially in recent years). However, he still appears to ensure that he commits enough ET events on his own schedule. It is not an either/or situation. A player can make an effort to support a Tour, whilst still picking and choosing events that best fit their schedule.
		
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The discussion on here about players not supporting the ET enough has been done plenty of times and that included the likes of Rory etc - they do pick their schedule to what suits them best as opposed to what suits the Tour best - I don’t think anyone has suggested anything different


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m confused when it was decided what was a silly argument or not

And also have seen the notion about wanting to play less but then also wanting to play more been banded around by a number of people on social media - I think it’s a valid argument
		
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I expressed my opinion that it was a silly argument. Until you can argue that Poulter is trying to play MORE golf than he played BEFORE he joined LIV, then your statement is absolutely without foundation. And, you will need to wait until some time has passed before you can then compare how much golf he plays before and after LIV. Simply wanting to play a few events outside the LIV tour does not automatically mean the player wants to play more golf.

If you can't see that, then it is pointless having any debate with you I suppose.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I also agree with the principal of free to air, but Liv is a bait and switch. There are only two possible future revenue models

1. Advertising.
2. Subscription.

I can see a future where a Liv App exists as a subscription service. It is the same problem that other broadcasters are dealing with at the moment in fighting for audience share.

YouTube is moving to a combination of Advertising AND Subscription. So I'd say to those enjoying "free golf" to enjoy this period while it lasts, if you can.
		
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that it won’t stay free for long - nothing ever does really, it will be loaded up with advertising or on an app or with someone like DAZN etc - I know they have huge buckets of money but to work at a loss each year would be crazy

“iF” - it continues and becomes a regular tour then it would be behind a firewall rather quickly


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I expressed my opinion that it was a silly argument. Until you can argue that Poulter is trying to play MORE golf than he played BEFORE he joined LIV, then your statement is absolutely without foundation. And, you will need to wait until some time has passed before you can then compare how much golf he plays before and after LIV. Simply wanting to play a few events outside the LIV tour does not automatically mean the player wants to play more golf.

If you can't see that, then it is pointless having any debate with you I suppose.
		
Click to expand...

I just expressed my opinion 🤷‍♂️ That’s how a debate goes eh - I guess I could call yours silly etc etc but then it’s going downhill then and thankfully the thread hasn’t gone that way

The talk was about the players playing “LESS golf”  - not playing week after week , bigger gaps inbetween events etc , less travel away from family etc etc

Yet here is Poulter wanting to play again the week after Portland and talking about supporting the tour etc - so that imo is him not being entirely honest and prob using it as practice for The Open but again that’s just my opinion - I could be wrong or I could be right 🤷‍♂️ That’s just the way it is


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## BiMGuy (Jul 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Well it’s free for a start lol.
		
Click to expand...

Only because Sky didn’t want it. As soon as they can get a broadcaster on board it will go behind a paywall.


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## SyR (Jul 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Well it’s free for a start lol.
		
Click to expand...

And no adverts for the moment too.


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## Anoetic (Jul 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Can someone please explain how watching LiV players hit shots is ‘more fun’ than watching non LiV players hit shots?
		
Click to expand...

Not necessary more fun, but atm there is no paywall hence available to a wider audience….and if that changes then I’ll go back to not watching golf on tv 🤷‍♂️


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## PieMan (Jul 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			All tournaments should be restricted to 54 players...that's how you grow the game.
Fewer players = bigger game 

Click to expand...

Yeah but don't forget it's primarily about having fun with your mates........and having your caddy taken care of........!


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## PieMan (Jul 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Can someone please explain how watching LiV players hit shots is ‘more fun’ than watching non LiV players hit shots?
		
Click to expand...

Because most of them are playing  golf!


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## AussieKB (Jul 5, 2022)

How can you be lifetime member of the European Tour and then be banned from playing in their events ?
makes a mockery of giiving someone a lifetime honorary.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How can you be lifetime member of the European Tour and then be banned from playing in their events ?
makes a mockery of giiving someone a lifetime honorary.
		
Click to expand...

honours are always removeable, they are honours not absolute rights


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I just expressed my opinion 🤷‍♂️ That’s how a debate goes eh - I guess I could call yours silly etc etc but then it’s going downhill then and thankfully the thread hasn’t gone that way

The talk was about the players playing “LESS golf”  - not playing week after week , bigger gaps inbetween events etc , less travel away from family etc etc

Yet here is Poulter wanting to play again the week after Portland and talking about supporting the tour etc - so that imo is him not being entirely honest and prob using it as practice for The Open but again that’s just my opinion - I could be wrong or I could be right 🤷‍♂️ That’s just the way it is
		
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Again, unless Poulter specifically said he does not want to ever play in consecutive weeks, I just don't know how you think your point in this case is valid? It basically sounds like you are trying to prove that Poulter was lying about wanting to play less golf, simply because he now wants to play in consecutive weeks for one part of the year. 

The way I see it is that he wants to play LIV, but he also wants to support the ET and possibly PGA Tour when he gets the chance. He clearly feels he will need to play less events over a year, and so he can be more selective in which Tour events he wants to play. I would find that this point of view is entirely credible. Whereas, you are using one piece of information and trying to completely spin it to sound that Poulter want to play at least the same amount, if not more golf than he did before. Huge leap there.


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The benefit is it’s fun, and easy to watch. Golf is an afternoon or morning out with your mates having fun, not a 4 day tournament where you get told to fk off after two days if you’ve played badly.
I absolutely guarantee that watching LIV golf will raise the awareness of the game to those that have shown no or only a passing interest, way more than the vast majority of tour events that are behind a paywall will.
		
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Nobody is obliged to watch 4 days. You have said yourself only the last two days matter. So 4 days golf or not, you are free to tune in for the last couple of hours on yhe last day.

And I dont think anyone is swallowing that free to air line anymore. The Saudi are not behind one because they couldnt get behind one. If they could, they would reverse their position as sharply as Westwood or Perez, jump,  and pull the plug on free access youtube.


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544291785102483456Billy Ho has his thoughts 😲


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Again, unless Poulter specifically said he does not want to ever play in consecutive weeks, I just don't know how you think your point in this case is valid? It basically sounds like you are trying to prove that Poulter was lying about wanting to play less golf, simply because he now wants to play in consecutive weeks for one part of the year.

The way I see it is that he wants to play LIV, but he also wants to support the ET and possibly PGA Tour when he gets the chance. He clearly feels he will need to play less events over a year, and so he can be more selective in which Tour events he wants to play. I would find that this point of view is entirely credible. Whereas, you are using one piece of information and trying to completely spin it to sound that Poulter want to play at least the same amount, if not more golf than he did before. Huge leap there.
		
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I’m not trying to “prove” anything - I’m just giving an opinion 🤷‍♂️ You are more than welcome to disagree

The opinion is nice and simple - no matter what the players say about playing less etc etc as reason for going to LIV for me it’s all about one thing - the money , at least some of the players have admitted it , all the other stuff is just excuses to try and get away from the fact they are just greedy

So to clarify for you - all the excuses and reasons they have given about playing less and spending time with the family is imo just lies

Guess I’m not the only one. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544291785102483456
And yes Poulter will want to pick and choose when and where he plays ( less golf more money )  , he claims he didn’t understand the consequences of playing in the LIV tour ( he must be very daft ) but unfortunately for him that’s not how it works with the PGA and ET as soon as he jumped ship for the money - if he wants to play on the PGA tour then he must abide by their rules , if he wants to play on the ET he must abide by their rules , if he can’t do that then he can’t pick and choose and he will just have to play the 8 events a year on the LIV tour


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How can you be lifetime member of the European Tour and then be banned from playing in their events ?
makes a mockery of giiving someone a lifetime honorary.
		
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If the rules of membership say that you can't join a rival tour, I expect. 

How can someone complain when something they were warned would happen if they pursue a certain course of action then happens?


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 5, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544291785102483456Billy Ho has his thoughts 😲
		
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Consequently, most of the guys who have "remained" (or spoken out against it) have been those who I'd associate with being first class top blokes (Rory, Billy Ho, Fred Couples) and those who have defected have either not been a surprise, given how they've carried themselves previously (see: Patrick Reed, BdC and Koepka) or are not surprising, given their personality (see: Poults). A few have shocked me a bit, but have shown their true colours from what I've seen and heard from them. 

In my opinion, of course.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Nobody is obliged to watch 4 days. You have said yourself only the last two days matter. So 4 days golf or not, you are free to tune in for the last couple of hours on yhe last day.

And I dont think anyone is swallowing that free to air line anymore. The Saudi are not behind one because they couldnt get behind one. If they could, they would reverse their position as sharply as Westwood or Perez, jump,  and pull the plug on free access youtube.
		
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure it will end up behind a paywall, at which point the PGA tour really does have a problem, because they will then be competing for television deals with LIV - so unless the money on the table goes up massively, the PGA tour tv revenue will significantly diminish.
It also means the LIV series has cemented its position in the professional golfing calendar.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not trying to “prove” anything - I’m just giving an opinion 🤷‍♂️ You are more than welcome to disagree

*The opinion is nice and simple - no matter what the players say about playing less etc etc as reason for going to LIV for me it’s all about one thing - the money , at least some of the players have admitted it , all the other stuff is just excuses to try and get away from the fact they are just greedy

So to clarify for you - all the excuses and reasons they have given about playing less and spending time with the family is imo just lies*

Guess I’m not the only one.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544291785102483456
And yes Poulter will want to pick and choose when and where he plays ( less golf more money )  , he claims he didn’t understand the consequences of playing in the LIV tour ( he must be very daft ) but unfortunately for him that’s not how it works with the PGA and ET as soon as he jumped ship for the money - if he wants to play on the PGA tour then he must abide by their rules , if he wants to play on the ET he must abide by their rules , if he can’t do that then he can’t pick and choose and he will just have to play the 8 events a year on the LIV tour
		
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In my opinion, absolutely ridiculous point of view you have there.

Every single one of us knows that money is the main driving factor. Every time I have heard a player asked about it, they have also said the money was a key factor. What player has said money has nothing to do with it. We also know that if the money was the same as the PGA Tour, they probably would not have gone to LIV. Not even if the money was a little higher than the PGA Tour most likely. Everyone knows this, so it really isn't a point worth debating.

However, just because the money is much better, that does not automatically mean that every other issue surrounding LIV must be negative and worse than the existing tours. It is blatantly obvious that if a player signs up to LIV, they can feel they don't need to play as much golf as before. It takes the pressure off them, knowing they pretty much have a guaranteed high income. And, they only play for 3 days each event. So, how can you not see this as having more time off, time in which they can do as they please, such as seeing more of their family? That seems to be a huge additional benefit for players. I am sure they will then also go and try and see any other positives they can think off. You'd have to be a pretty miserable person to take a job for better money, and then just be constantly negative about every other factor related to that job.

But, if it is your opinion that any job that pays more than another similar job must be worse in every other measurable factor, then you are welcome to it.


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Im pretty sure it will end up behind a paywall, at which point the PGA tour really does have a problem, because they will then be competing for television deals with LIV - so unless the money on the table goes up massively, the PGA tour tv revenue will significantly diminish.
It also means the LIV series has cemented its position in the professional golfing calendar.
		
Click to expand...

So you are arguing that its a stength of the Saudi tour not to be behind a paywall, and that it will be an even greater strength to be behind one when it is.
Sounds like Boris speak : we are stronger in the EU until we are out and then we are stronger out.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The benefit is it’s fun, and easy to watch. Golf is an afternoon or morning out with your mates having fun, not a 4 day tournament where you get told to fk off after two days if you’ve played badly.
I absolutely guarantee that watching LIV golf will raise the awareness of the game to those that have shown no or only a passing interest, way more than the vast majority of tour events that are behind a paywall will.
		
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All highly debatable spurious opinions. As I've posted several times, I've found it a 'difficult' watch. The nearly half million views was ok (I may have been responsible for a 4 or 5 of them) but doesn't compare to the numbers normal PGAT golf gets - CBS stats for the John Deere final round in a standard year gets 1.5m+ so add Sky figures (unavailable) and that's vastly more than for LIV. Describing it as 'fun', at least from a viewers pov, is just ridiculous imo. Only for the greedy players could it be described as 'fun'. Watching ANY additional golf will likely 'raise awareness of golf', but I'd challenge both the extent and the permanence of any increase. LIV is, to me, just comparable to  travelling circus -  worth watching/going to if convenient/nearby but not something to follow every instance. And there was, perhaps understandably, very little coverage of the players not in contention - no different to 'normal' coverage. Even the 'team' event doesn't include the entire team, so is 'manufactured' - effectively 1 or 2 members being told to fk off but we'll still obscenely give you loadsamoney.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe some of the bigger players realise that, if they choose to play on any regular PGA / ET event, that will automatically make that even more attractive to the fans that follow them, and also make them more attractive in pulling in sponsorship to that event. So, maybe it frustrates them that their presence can generate a huge amount for the event / tour (even if they miss the cut), yet if they then miss the cut, they get no benefit at all.
		
Click to expand...

That makes no sense,  giving Zero prize money for missing the cut,  means there is more available for those that make the cut.  Those that make the cut most often are the players you are taking about.  The only losers from no pay for missing the cut,  are those that miss the cut most often.  This argument from LIV supporters is the least credible of them all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			In my opinion, absolutely ridiculous point of view you have there.

Every single one of us knows that money is the main driving factor. Every time I have heard a player asked about it, they have also said the money was a key factor. What player has said money has nothing to do with it. We also know that if the money was the same as the PGA Tour, they probably would not have gone to LIV. Not even if the money was a little higher than the PGA Tour most likely. Everyone knows this, so it really isn't a point worth debating.
		
Click to expand...

So it’s a ridiculous pov to believe that players are there for one reason only - the money but then you go on to state it’s a key reason for them being there 🤷‍♂️

I also don’t believe a player has stated it’s not about the money or that someone suggested that - what we have seen is players bypass the questions and waffle on about other excuses in regards going to the LIV tour - when it is all about the money , it is a simple as that for me



			However, just because the money is much better, that does not automatically mean that every other issue surrounding LIV must be negative and worse than the existing tours. It is blatantly obvious that if a player signs up to LIV, they can feel they don't need to play as much golf as before. It takes the pressure off them, knowing they pretty much have a guaranteed high income. And, they only play for 3 days each event. So, how can you not see this as having more time off, time in which they can do as they please, such as seeing more of their family? That seems to be a huge additional benefit for players. I am sure they will then also go and try and see any other positives they can think off. You'd have to be a pretty miserable person to take a job for better money, and then just be constantly negative about every other factor related to that job.

*But, if it is your opinion that any job that pays more than another similar job must be worse in every other measurable factor, then you are welcome to it.*

Click to expand...

i know they will get more time off 🤷‍♂️ But that’s not their reason for going to LIV

im not sure where you got that conclusion from 🤷‍♂️

The reasons why I believe LIV is bad for the sport are pretty

1. The money - players being paid huge amounts just to turn up
2. Where the money is coming - Saudi blood money

The two biggest reasons

Would also add Greg Norman as being the next reason why it’s bad for the sport

shotguns starts , team games, 54 holes etc aren’t “bad” for the game , they are just gimmicks which at times have been tried

This is a league/tournament that’s solely funded by a state - and a state with horrific human rights issues amongst other things - just as I think the boxing match there or the GP there are not good things

But I think we have exhausted it now and will agree to disagree


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			That makes no sense,  giving Zero prize money for missing the cut,  means there is more available for those that make the cut.  Those that make the cut most often are the players you are taking about.  The only losers from no pay for missing the cut,  are those that miss the cut most often.  This argument from LIV supporters is the least credible of them all.
		
Click to expand...

It is not my argument to make. It would be a personal argument by a player potentially. I was simply seeing a point of view that, they turn up for some relatively minor PGA event that they would probably rather do without from a purely golfing point of view. But, they do so to keep their sponsors, PGA Tour sponsors, etc happy in the main. The sponsors obviously wanting to see them there to create more interest in the tournament. Then, if that player misses the cut, they might see it as a complete waste of their time.

I'm not saying I agree with that point of view. The big players have already made themselves extremely wealthy, with the PGA Tour that vehicle to get them there. I'm just saying that when they get to the stage of being a high profile player, they would like more reward for the PGA Tour using that players pulling power. Not sure if this was along the lines of what Mickleson was getting at originally, when he took a swipe at the PGA Tour and control of media rights, etc.?


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And it's louder...
		
Click to expand...

Not when I have to turn the dire commentary down!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So it’s a ridiculous pov to believe that players are there for one reason only - the money but then you go on to state it’s a key reason for them being there* 🤷‍♂️

I also don’t believe a player has stated it’s not about the money or that someone suggested that - what we have seen is players bypass the questions and waffle on about other excuses in regards going to the LIV tour - when it is all about the money , it is a simple as that for me

i know they will get more time off 🤷‍♂️ But that’s not their reason for going to LIV

im not sure where you got that conclusion from 🤷‍♂️

The reasons why I believe LIV is bad for the sport are pretty

1. The money - players being paid huge amounts just to turn up
2. Where the money is coming - Saudi blood money

The two biggest reasons

Would also add Greg Norman as being the next reason why it’s bad for the sport

shotguns starts , team games, 54 holes etc aren’t “bad” for the game , they are just gimmicks which at times have been tried

This is a league/tournament that’s solely funded by a state - and a state with horrific human rights issues amongst other things - just as I think the boxing match there or the GP there are not good things
		
Click to expand...

Someone needs to educate you about the difference between "one reason only" and "a key reason". I'll give you a hint. If something is classified as a key reason, then it suggests that there are OTHER reasons, but the key reason is the primary one. Whereas one reason only suggests it is the ONLY reason. 

I have no issue with several arguments against LIV. I can see exactly why players would be attracted by the money, and don't really blame them, but it doesn't really help the fans. The events have no history as yet, and with no world ranking points, they just feel like one off exhibition games. The team aspect, I agree, is a gimmick at the moment. I played a pairs event at the weekend, and we jokingly gave ourselves the team name "Pin Seekers". The teams on LIV have little more prestige than my Pin Seekers team. I don't like the shotgun start, and they seem to cram so many golf shots into an hours footage. It is like a highlights program, whereas I personally like the build up to shots, and sometimes a little bit of punditry to breakdown a players swing, or commenting on the pressure they are under and a mistake they made.

So, I personally have no love or excitement for LIV yet, except for an interest on where it is all going to end up. We can talk about blood money all we like, but until we demand our government makes it illegal for players (or any other person) to accept Saudi money, then I'm not going to start making moral judgements on peoples decisions to accept the money. If people choose not to take Saudi business or go on holiday there, that is absolutely fine. However, if someone else does decide to go and work in the Middle East or go on holiday there, I will again have no issue with this


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So you are arguing that its a stength of the Saudi tour not to be behind a paywall, and that it will be an even greater strength to be behind one when it is.
Sounds like Boris speak : we are stronger in the EU until we are out and then we are stronger out.
		
Click to expand...

While it’s in its infancy, yes, it’s great that it’s free to watch and very easily accessible. When they get a TV deal they will have validated their product and taken it up a level. However, the business model isn’t the same as the other tours, we may see something different from LIV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544328766222176257
👏👏👏👏👏

And at least McDowell is honest


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544328766222176257
👏👏👏👏👏

And at least McDowell is honest

View attachment 43336

Click to expand...

Not quite sure what his point is. If you are 150th, you can really expect to be making the mega cash. Is it a sense of entitlement that as a major winner, and now on the wane, he should be on big bucks despite the performances.
Thats part of what is wrong with LIV. All well and good if the had the clear top 50 world golfers. But if they had, Gmac wouldnt be part of it. So its an acknowledgement from him, that since he is, it is a low standard event, borderline champions tour / exhibition of guys whose best years are well behind them.
I dont fault him for signing up for the big money. But it lowers its credibility as world sport that he is in it.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

GMac is being honest,. He can't cut it on the main Tour anymore, so he may as well go and cash in on the exhibition circuit, and so long as you ignore where the money is coming from, happy days.


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## timd77 (Jul 5, 2022)

Great interview that from Horschel. Very passionate and you can tell he’s upset by what’s going on and being said.

What an absolute mess our game is in.


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

That seems to be it. The least of their problems these days, but Saudi cant be too happy with him acknowledging he isnt up to PGA tour anymore, but that he is up (down) to LIV level.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is not my argument to make. It would be a personal argument by a player potentially. I was simply seeing a point of view that, they turn up for some relatively minor PGA event that they would probably rather do without from a purely golfing point of view. But, they do so to keep their sponsors, PGA Tour sponsors, etc happy in the main. The sponsors obviously wanting to see them there to create more interest in the tournament. Then, if that player misses the cut, they might see it as a complete waste of their time.

I'm not saying I agree with that point of view. The big players have already made themselves extremely wealthy, with the PGA Tour that vehicle to get them there. I'm just saying that when they get to the stage of being a high profile player, they would like more reward for the PGA Tour using that players pulling power. Not sure if this was along the lines of what Mickleson was getting at originally, when he took a swipe at the PGA Tour and control of media rights, etc.?
		
Click to expand...

I don't see playwers on here making that argument I see you.  As I clearly pointed out it is a ridiculous one which you have not argued against but simply repeat the same argument,  utter guff. 

Phil Mickleson's argument has been that the higher profile players should receive greater rewards rewards,  without saying how that could be financed without reducing the rewards at the other end of the spectrum.  This at lewast a legitimate argument,  though one I disagree with.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 5, 2022)

Did anyone see Rory JT or anyone else 
complain that the tournament purses on the PGA tour are increasing.
I presume not


Ethan said:



			GMac is being honest,. He can't cut it on the main Tour anymore, so he may as well go and cash in on the exhibition circuit, and so long as you ignore where the money is coming from, happy days.
		
Click to expand...

Boring reply as usual ,change the record


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## Swango1980 (Jul 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I don't see playwers on here making that argument I see you.  As I clearly pointed out it is a ridiculous one which you have not argued against but simply repeat the same argument,  utter guff. 

Phil Mickleson's argument has been that the higher profile players should receive greater rewards rewards,  without saying how that could be financed without reducing the rewards at the other end of the spectrum.  This at lewast a legitimate argument,  though one I disagree with.
		
Click to expand...

So, Phil Micklson believes higher profile players should receive greater rewards. More money perhaps?

I rest my case  .


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## pokerjoke (Jul 5, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Great interview that from Horschel. Very passionate and you can tell he’s upset by what’s going on and being said.

What an absolute mess our game is in.
		
Click to expand...

Even the pros are slating each other.
That’s obviously not good


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Did anyone see Rory JT or anyone else
complain that the tournament purses on the PGA tour are increasing.
I presume not

Boring reply as usual ,change the record
		
Click to expand...

No, if you don't like what I post, ignore me.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544343230526787584


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Great interview that from Horschel. Very passionate and you can tell he’s upset by what’s going on and being said.

What an absolute mess our game is in.
		
Click to expand...

Our Professional game.....the rest of golf (the majority)is working just fine....


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

timd77 said:



			What an absolute mess our game is in.
		
Click to expand...

99.99999% of golfers and golf are entirely unaffected by this spat for control of money and marketing at the elite tip of golf as entertainment.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

pokerjoke said:





Ethan said:



			GMac is being honest,. He can't cut it on the main Tour anymore, so he may as well go and cash in on the exhibition circuit, and so long as you ignore where the money is coming from, happy days.
		
Click to expand...

*Boring reply as usual* ,change the record
		
Click to expand...

You mean...'Consistent and accurate, but not what I want to hear'


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## rksquire (Jul 5, 2022)

Good strong comments from Billy Horschel and McIlroy today - at this point, much as it is entertaining, with legal battles looming it might be time for the Pros to stop providing speculative commentary.... eg, and I am the biggest McIlroy apologist, but I can recall him being strongly criticized for wanting his cake and eating it on at least 2 occasions with regard to European Tour membership fulfillment (non Ryder Cup year) AND for others (ironically Casey in particular) to play despite not playing the required number of events (Ryder Cup year!).  He did, of course, get his way.  He was the jewel in the crown then; now he's the PGA's jewel.  If the whole thing fires him up that'd be great, but I don't want 'foot in mouth' comments to showcase the times his petulance and times his personal goals came ahead of the professional games needs.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, Phil Micklson believes higher profile players should receive greater rewards. More money perhaps?

I rest my case  .
		
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They do - through their sponsors! - and maybe some 'attendance bonuses'


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## BrianM (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544343230526787584

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You know this is a tournament sponsored by blood money as Aramco are owned by the Saudi Arabian government. 😂😂


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			They do - through their sponsors! - and maybe some 'attendance bonuses'
		
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And from the PGA tour payout according to their profile and contribution to the tour o  general. Sort of a bonus profit share..


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

BrianM said:



			You know this is a tournament sponsored by blood money as Aramco are owned by the Saudi Arabian government. 😂😂
		
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Of course. 
Olympians, LPGA members, LET players - all escaping the wrath of the principled journalists who so eagerly stick the knife into those gentleman who work for the same paymasters.
Moronic levels of hypocrisy.. 🤔👍


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And from the PGA tour payout according to their profile and contribution to the tour o  general. Sort of a bonus profit share..
		
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I can't see any documentation of that/those 'bonus shares'. Got a link/documentation? Prize money payout in most tournaments is pretty much pre-specified (18% for winner etc).


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Augusta National is absolutely an invite only place, but the Masters Tournament is not an invitational. The qualification routes are published, and I don't believe the Masters Committee can uninvite someone who has qualified:


Masters Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
US Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
British Open Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
PGA Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 5 years)
Winners of The Players Championship (Three years)
Current Olympic Gold Medalist (One year)
Current US Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year) and the runner-up to the current US Amateur Champion
Current British Amateur Champion (Honorary, non-competing after 1 year)
Current Asia-Pacific Amateur Champion
Current Latin America Amateur Champion
Current US Mid-Amateur Champion
The first 12 players, including ties, in the previous year's Masters Tournament
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's US Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's British Open Championship
The first 4 players, including ties, in the previous year's PGA Championship
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters
Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
The 50 leaders on the Final Official World Golf Ranking for the previous calendar year
The 50 leaders on the Official World Golf Ranking published during the week prior to the current Masters Tournament
These are the published qualification routes. The committee can invite people who have not qualified with these methods. It is usually only 1 or 2, they have in the past invited players on the Asian Tour in an attempt to get more viewers, they have also invited big names who have possibly dropped down, I think Montgomery was invited once a few years back.

Langer qualifies by being a former champion, he is not invited, he has a lifetime exemption, but despite this, I am not so sure about that anecdote because I don't think members can play on the course for a couple months before the Masters, and past champions can't just rock up whenever they want to play
		
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Sounds an awful place to be a member 

Can't play for a couple months and rest of year their always doing maintenance for the masters! Chopping and changing the thing


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

Aramco and the LIV Tour are rather similar. Armco is a listed company with shares, but the vast majority is owned by Saudi Royal Family. It is a minor distinction. 

I wouldn't play there, even if I qualified for the Ladies European Tour. 

The only difference I can see is that the LET have chosen to develop this relationship, and the players play on the LET. They have a degree of separation from the issue, but only a modest degree. LET players have a smaller number of choices about where to play, so the choice not to play on ethical grounds carries a larger cost for many LET players. 

The LIV Tour has no such separation. It is the Saudi Royal Family. There is little pressure to play for wealthy PGA Tour players who are just getting greedy as their money-making abilities fade.


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## Springveldt (Jul 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Sounds an awful place to be a member

Can't play for a couple months and rest of year their always doing maintenance for the masters! Chopping and changing the thing
		
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I doubt any of the members care. It seems to me that they just want to be members of a very elite, private club.

I don't understand the adulation for the place, it's everything that the non golfing public dislike about golf.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course.
Olympians, LPGA members, LET players - all escaping the wrath of the principled journalists who so eagerly stick the knife into those gentleman who work for the same paymasters.
Moronic levels of hypocrisy.. 🤔👍
		
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So having successfully, and quite cheaply, bought the a sizeable chunk of the Women's game, they are now going for the Men's game, but encountering rather more resistance!
And, indeed, moronic levels of hypocrisy!


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			He has a pretty good record in this event, though it's not normally a particularly high rated tournament - the (aged) multiplier from last year's tournament was 0.57 - same as the 'traditionally weak' John Deere's
		
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Not familiar with the 'aged multiplier', but these are owgr stats from 2021

John Deere Classic 11TH JULY 2021 
Strength of Field 122
Winner 28 points

abrdn Scottish Open 11TH JULY 2021
Strength of Field 424
Winner 56 points

And for 2022
Genesis Scottish Open
SOF   649
Proj 1st Points 70

Barbasol Championship
SOF 10
Proj 1st Points 24


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2022)

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/li...xcyRLBqxUq9LGTMLKOQFmAgc1E#l58jqou7qdgil7o0n4

One potentially good thing for the European Ryder Cup Team is it’s got rid of all the old boys who were hanging on for dear life, hasn't it,” he said, referring to the likes of Ian Poulter, Paul Casey, Lee Westwood and Sergio Garcia who now face the possibility of being banned from any future involvement in the event going forward. “They’re gone now. So good, there’ll be a lot of great young players coming in and it might be the best thing that’s ever happened for us.”

😂😂😂
Knox, who also sits on the PGA Tour Player Advisory Council said: "It is what it is, they’ve gone for the money and can you blame them for that? Not really. Is it good for golf and something I’d do? No. But I wasn’t offered 150 million! It leaves a weird feeling for me, I just don’t like it. I’m just not a fan.


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## BrianM (Jul 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Aramco and the LIV Tour are rather similar. Armco is a listed company with shares, but the vast majority is owned by Saudi Royal Family. It is a minor distinction.

I wouldn't play there, even if I qualified for the Ladies European Tour.

The only difference I can see is that the LET have chosen to develop this relationship, and the players play on the LET. They have a degree of separation from the issue, but only a modest degree. LET players have a smaller number of choices about where to play, so the choice not to play on ethical grounds carries a larger cost for many LET players.

The LIV Tour has no such separation. It is the Saudi Royal Family. There is little pressure to play for wealthy PGA Tour players who are just getting greedy as their money-making abilities fade.
		
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Talk about clutching at straws.
I’m not bothered one bit about LIV by the way but the hypocrisy is unbelievable, if it’s good for one surely it’s good for the other.


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Great interview that from Horschel. Very passionate and you can tell he’s upset by what’s going on and being said.

What an absolute mess our game is in.
		
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Billy can almost taste that Ryder Cup spot 😉😉😁👍

Yeah the upper levels of men's pro game are a bit of a mess. But there may be a number of 'further down' pros thinking it may be a little easier gaining some extra starts, and maybe finishing a few places higher, with possibly some bigger purses...


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Talk about clutching at straws.
I’m not bothered one bit about LIV by the way but the hypocrisy is unbelievable, if it’s good for one surely it’s good for the other.
		
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Not clutching at straws. Trying to actually look at the issues instead of jumping to blind apologism or whatabouttery like some of the LIV Tour advocates here. And you are not bothered about LIV, so you don't really make any moral distinctions anyway. Regardless, there is a subtle difference between the two situations. Sorry/not sorry if you disagree.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not familiar with the 'aged multiplier', but these are owgr stats from 2021
		
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It's not 'aged multiplier', but 'aged' multiplier. Basically, the value of any tournament's points 'age' (reduce) over time. So while winning a tournament might be worth 24 points contribution to OWGR this week, it might only be worth 0.5761 *  24 for the same win in the previous year's tournament. Basically recent results carry more weight (up to 100%) while earlier results carry less weight (57.61%) at 1 year. Actual Points allocated to any tournament depend partly on quality of field as per your post. JDC winner getting 24 points, while the week before the winner of Travellers got 54. That is then averaged of 2 years of tournaments and produces the ranking. There's a few other subtleties, but that's the gist.


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2022)

Some interesting views here I thought..

https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/morri-a-revolution-that-smacks-of-sameness-582166


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## sunshine (Jul 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Im pretty sure it will end up behind a paywall, at which point the PGA tour really does have a problem, because they will then be competing for television deals with LIV - so unless the money on the table goes up massively, the PGA tour tv revenue will significantly diminish.
It also means the LIV series has cemented its position in the professional golfing calendar.
		
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This is straight out of a comedy sketch. Yes Minister or a political satire. 

The ridiculous mix of contradictions, propaganda and utter drivel. You have been banging on about how it’s free to air is a major selling point but now you’re claiming the opposite.


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## ger147 (Jul 5, 2022)

sunshine said:



			This is straight out of a comedy sketch. Yes Minister or a political satire. 

The ridiculous mix of contradictions, propaganda and utter drivel. You have been banging on about how it’s free to air is a major selling point but now you’re claiming the opposite.
		
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Speaking of which, has LIV Golf signed up Rishi Sunak yet?


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I can't see any documentation of that/those 'bonus shares'. Got a link/documentation? Prize money payout in most tournaments is pretty much pre-specified (18% for winner etc).
		
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ands-8-million-pga-prize-without-even-playing


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ands-8-million-pga-prize-without-even-playing

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Thanks for that.
Staggering numbers - even by golf standards!


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## Backsticks (Jul 5, 2022)

Petty cash by Saudi standards it seems though !


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2022)

Grace now also in the Scottish Open.

 Tee times showing two 2-ball groups.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

sunshine said:



			This is straight out of a comedy sketch. Yes Minister or a political satire.

The ridiculous mix of contradictions, propaganda and utter drivel. You have been banging on about how it’s free to air is a major selling point but now you’re claiming the opposite.
		
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Seriously, if you can’t read, don’t write.
Of course the free to air aspect is a major selling point right now, but everybody has to accept that they may go to a subscription package in the future, should the financials make sense for them. Personally, I’d hope it stays accessible, if not on You Tube then maybe something similar to Amazon.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544422642907742208


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## Depreston (Jul 5, 2022)

I still can’t believe that after all the high profile sign ups for Portland the figures were less than centurion 

Average concurrent views of around 60k-80k from what I seen when I checked in each day 

so much for streaming being the new way to watch sport TV is still very much the king


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2022)

The main thing that strikes me about the whole LIV series is that out of the last 170+ pages of posts about it there are very few posts about the golf itself, who won and who shot what, and far more about the rights and wrongs of it. If you're looking to grow the game and take it to new audiences then surely you need to be discussing how good the new product is.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The main thing that strikes me about the whole LIV series is that out of the last 170+ pages of posts about it there are very few posts about the golf itself, who won and who shot what, and far more about the rights and wrongs of it. If you're looking to grow the game and take it to new audiences then surely you need to be discussing how good the new product is.
		
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That's almost certainly because there are no actual new golfers (except perhaps Lopez-Chacarra) in the tournament. So any migration to LIV tends to reduce the quality of other tours.

And another 'interesting' stat...Apparently - according to Bunkered - 14 out of the top 15 in OWGR rankings are playing the Scottish Open at Renaissance this week. There were 0 at Portland!


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## sunshine (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Seriously, if you can’t read, don’t write.
		
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Are you for real? Someone points out the inconsistencies in your posts and you try and discredit it. Are you going to claim it is fake news next?

I’ve got no issues with people having different opinions but there’s a massive difference between your posts and everyone else’s. Your account has become a propaganda machine churning out a constant stream of misinformation. It feels like you are being fed stories or either there is a team behind this account.


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## Imurg (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544422642907742208

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The tee times had already been decided...all of a sudden you've got 4 blokes to get into the mix..
Where else can you put 2 2 balls in a field of 3 balls.....?
It's the only place they could put them although I'd have been tempted to put them at the back so they spend most of the day standing around waiting...
Talk about clutching at straws...the poor lambs have to get up early.....


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 6, 2022)

Ryder Cup about to be sent into turmoil if true.
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/rumour-henrik-stenson-close-to-finalising-liv-golf-deal


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The tee times had already been decided...all of a sudden you've got 4 blokes to get into the mix..
Where else can you put 2 2 balls in a field of 3 balls.....?
It's the only place they could put them although I'd have been tempted to put them at the back so they spend most of the day standing around waiting...
Talk about clutching at straws...the poor lambs have to get up early.....

Click to expand...

Not according to Scott, and I guess he’d know?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544422975365124097

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544423267741667334


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## Imurg (Jul 6, 2022)

The release of the draw was delayed ..doesn't mean it wasn't already done..with at least 1 and, as it happens, 4 extra players there was always going to be 2 2balls...why shouldn't it be them..? They are the last to enter...
Why should they be accommodating to people who they think shouldn't be playing because they've broken Tour rules..?


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The tee times had already been decided...all of a sudden you've got 4 blokes to get into the mix..
Where else can you put 2 2 balls in a field of 3 balls.....?
It's the only place they could put them although *I'd have been tempted to put them at the back so they spend most of the day standing around waiting...*
Talk about clutching at straws...the poor lambs have to get up early.....

Click to expand...

Won't that happen Friday? From ancient memory, order is reversed for round 2 - though it could have changed and/or my memory might be wrong. Maybe as a 4-ball?
Delay was possibly just deciding whether to completely 'reschedule' of simply add them to front/back.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The release of the draw was delayed ..doesn't mean it wasn't already done..with at least 1 and, as it happens, 4 extra players there was always going to be 2 2balls...why shouldn't it be them..? They are the last to enter...
Why should they be accommodating to people who they think shouldn't be playing because they've broken Tour rules..?
		
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You’d have to ask Scott Hend that, I’m merely sharing his views from inside the ropes, on here.


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## Slab (Jul 6, 2022)

It seems two of them are off first off the 1st tee at 7.15am and Grace/Poulter are away at lunchtime (1st off the 10th tee of the PM starters )

Reversed for day 2


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

When I read one US forum blog, most comments are supporting LIV and think the PGA are being hypocritical because someone dares to challenge them, yet on UK forums they are all for PGA supremacy, I would have thought it would have been the other way round.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

Pretty candid views from Mcilroy on the situation. https://www.independent.ie/sport/go...-to-solve-golfs-messy-situation-41816716.html


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			When I read one US forum blog, most comments are supporting LIV and think the PGA are being hypocritical because someone dares to challenge them, yet on UK forums they are all for PGA supremacy, I would have thought it would have been the other way round.
		
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Probably more UK golfers uncomfortable with the traditions of the game being challenged? 
In the US, playing recreational  golf is a much more relaxed affair than it generally is in the Uk, and the LIV series is more representative of that.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pretty candid views from Mcilroy on the situation. https://www.independent.ie/sport/go...-to-solve-golfs-messy-situation-41816716.html

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The headline doesn't seem to match the content though - and looks like something manufactured by a question 'engineered' to create it!


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			In the US, playing recreational  golf is a much more relaxed affair than it generally is in the Uk, and the LIV series is more representative of that.
		
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In what way is LIV more 'relaxed' about golf ?

You really do come across as a spin doctor trying to create a marketing department designed perception of LIV.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In what way is LIV more 'relaxed' about golf ?

You really do come across as a spin doctor trying to create a marketing department designed perception of LIV.
		
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That's been pretty glaringly obvious right from the start!


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## fenwayrich (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Probably more UK golfers uncomfortable with the traditions of the game being challenged?
In the US, playing recreational  golf is a much more relaxed affair than it generally is in the Uk, and the LIV series is more representative of that.
		
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The defectors are supposed to be amongst the world's elite golfers. They are playing for millions of bucks. How does that tie in with relaxed recreational golf?  What next? Mulligans, inchworms and leather wedges?


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## JamesR (Jul 6, 2022)

_"Hey guys come to LIV it's really relaxed, you can play crap, come last and still make a bucket load of cash..."_


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

JamesR said:



_"Hey guys come to LIV it's really relaxed, you can play crap, come last and still make a bucket load of cash..."_

Click to expand...

Where do I sign up....are you jealous ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In what way is LIV more 'relaxed' about golf ?

You really do come across as a spin doctor trying to create a marketing department designed perception of LIV.
		
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So, what I ACTUALLY said was recreational golf in the US, was more relaxed than in the UK, and LIV was more representative of that - music, more fun, beers flowing (not the players before any zealots jump on me) - all pretty obvious to most people reading the comment…..
So why are you trying to spin what I’ve said, to prove a point?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, what I *ACTUALLY said was recreational golf in the US, was more relaxed than in the UK*, and LIV was more representative of that - music, more fun, beers flowing (not the players before any zealots jump on me) - all pretty obvious to most people reading the comment…..
So why are you trying to spin what I’ve said, to prove a point?
		
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Is that because they don't worry about playing to the rules so much?


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## JamesR (Jul 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that because they don't worry about playing to the rules so much?
		
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No wonder Reed & DeChambeau went over to LIV


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## r0wly86 (Jul 6, 2022)

I don't think anyone here is saying that the PGA is beyond repproach and the natural order of things, or are against a new tour or a change in the world order.

They are simply stating the LIV is not the way to do it.

I am sure if the DP Tour managed to secure similar tournament funds that the PGA and got huge names to play week in week out over in Europe people on here would be supportive.

In fact I think a lot of people on this thread would really like to see a genuine world tour, but they are also aware that there is a massive difference in the economic markets across the globe. Golf is just much bigger in the USA than anywhere else, so they will obvious have more players, more money, and their collegiate system is built to produce world class players, and will recruit players from all over the world, so they will naturally graduate onto the PGA Tour.

The problem with golf is that there is no world governing body, like in football, rugby, cricket etc the organisations have their flaws but they have a general remit of trying to grow the game globally. In golf we have individual tours that are looking out for their own interest only.

If there was a breakaway tour that ran on the principle of having a world governing body and to play across the world then I would support that. But LIV is a closed shop tour with dodgy money, where already very rich players are after more and more money. The players and the tour don't care about the fans, or growing the game.


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, what I ACTUALLY said was recreational golf in the US, was more relaxed than in the UK, and LIV was more representative of that - music, more fun, beers flowing (not the players before any zealots jump on me) - all pretty obvious to most people reading the comment…..
So why are you trying to spin what I’ve said, to prove a point?
		
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The Phoenix Open is such a straightlaced event alright. And we never see a beer in the hands of PGAT fans do we ?

Beers on the course are a big problem on the PGAT in the views of many.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, what I ACTUALLY said was recreational golf in the US, was more relaxed than in the UK, and LIV was more representative of that - music, more fun,* beers flowing *(not the players before any zealots jump on me) - all pretty obvious to most people reading the comment…..
So why are you trying to spin what I’ve said, to prove a point?
		
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Not something to be done openly in Saudi Arabia!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, what I ACTUALLY said was recreational golf in the US, was more relaxed than in the UK, and LIV was more representative of that - music, more fun, beers flowing (not the players before any zealots jump on me) - all pretty obvious to most people reading the comment…..
So why are you trying to spin what I’ve said, to prove a point?
		
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Beers flowing on a tour financed by Saudi Arabia 🤷‍♂️

Prob more like fruit juice when they play in Saudi


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pretty candid views from Mcilroy on the situation. https://www.independent.ie/sport/go...-to-solve-golfs-messy-situation-41816716.html

Click to expand...






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544607105008672770


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

Think Rory is trying to be diplomatic now that he can see that the PGA and golf in general will not be the big winner.

But cannot see the PGA backing down and coming to the table to discuss a truce, but if more and more players move over then it will come to a tipping point when sponsors will start to complain, then they will have to come to the table.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Think Rory is trying to be diplomatic now that he can see that the PGA and golf in general will not be the big winner.

But cannot see the PGA backing down and coming to the table to discuss a truce, but if more and more players move over then it will come to a tipping point when sponsors will start to complain, then they will have to come to the table.
		
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seems a bit more like he's given up on the player. Fine, if you wanna go, go, But don't come crying back to us when it all goes to the dogs


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## PieMan (Jul 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			seems a bit more like he's given up on the player. Fine, if you wanna go, go, But don't come crying back to us when it all goes to the dogs
		
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Yep, pretty much what Billy Horschel was saying as well yesterday, albeit a bit more damning!!!


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

So what I gather from this thread is that the anti LIV is for the war to continue, come what may and who cares what damage is done to World golf, and the LIV supporters are all for change and who cares what damage is done to World golf.

If the powers that be can not at least come to the table, then I can see real damage being done to World golf.

Myself, I would love to see the players being able to play where ever they choose, obviously they would need to qualify for certain events, but if they do, so be it, am sure the sponsors would prefer the strongest possible field available.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Think Rory is trying to be diplomatic now that he can see that the PGA and golf in general will not be the big winner.
		
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Right now the PGA and ET have 99% of the big players and also have the pathway for new players - why won’t they be the big winner ? They hold most of the trump cards including help for entry into the majors and Ryder Cup 

All LIV have is money 




			But cannot see the PGA backing down and coming to the table to discuss a truce, but if more and more players move over then it will come to a tipping point when sponsors will start to complain, then they will have to come to the table.
		
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The PGA don’t need to back down and call a truce.

As for sponsors - most of the players going to LIV have lost their sponsors


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## JamesR (Jul 6, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544360938383544325


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2022)

Is there any possibility that the PGA Tour and DP World Tour will decide to completely join forces at some point? Develop some sort of global tour. Many tournaments still within USA overall, but in comparison to the PGA Tour alone, many more tournaments each year outside the US. So, maybe with 50 tournaments per year, 25 could be in US, 15 in Europe, 5 in Asia, 3 in Africa and 2 in Oceania (or something like that). These numbers could change if the game looks to grow in other parts of the world. With a lot of players, they could maybe have a Premier and a Second Tier Tour played at different venues, with players getting promoted and relegated each year. Maybe they could even join forces with the Ladies Tour?

All off the top of my head. But, it seems like the current tours are going to have a fight on their hands, simply with the sheer amount of money LIV are enticing players with. So, it seems like if they could join forces and really try and go global, it could generate some excitement amongst fans, and be very interesting to sponsors and broadcasters across the world.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is there any possibility that the PGA Tour and DP World Tour will decide to completely join forces at some point? Develop some sort of global tour. Many tournaments still within USA overall, but in comparison to the PGA Tour alone, many more tournaments each year outside the US. So, maybe with 50 tournaments per year, 25 could be in US, 15 in Europe, 5 in Asia, 3 in Africa and 2 in Oceania (or something like that). These numbers could change if the game looks to grow in other parts of the world. With a lot of players, they could maybe have a Premier and a Second Tier Tour played at different venues, with players getting promoted and relegated each year. Maybe they could even join forces with the Ladies Tour?

All off the top of my head. But, it seems like the current tours are going to have a fight on their hands, simply with the sheer amount of money LIV are enticing players with. So, it seems like if they could join forces and really try and go global, it could generate some excitement amongst fans, and be very interesting to sponsors and broadcasters across the world.
		
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I think you could see a model where the PGA Tour and DPWT came together, with a top tier of events, mostly PGA Tour and some leading DPWT events in the Premier League, some other DPWT and Korn Ferry Tour events in the second tier and some other Korn Ferry and Challenge Tour events in a third tier, with common money lists and promotion and relegation between tiers.


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right now the PGA and ET have 99% of the big players
		
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It has drifted from that. I would make it pgat and dp have 85%.

The only players that matter, are the top 100, and weighted to the top 20 mattering even more. Liv has about 15 % of that right now.

The pathway to new golfers is spread between the two. Some young golfers will stick with the proven route for the moment, plus no concern about majors access until that clarifies.
But in its favour, LIV can wave big dollars in front of young players off the bat. PGA only offers - come and see if you can win the big bucks, but no guarantee. So its about even for me on that front at the moment.


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## Slab (Jul 6, 2022)

I can't fathom all the 'outrage' about the appeal, why is anyone throwing a wobbly about this?

Regardless of whether you support or oppose LIV. If sanctions (fines & bans etc) are part of the contract players have with ET basic common sense tells us there must also be a right of appeal process within the contract too... the same contract!

And if one part of a disciplinary process is used why the outrage if another part is. Are we actually advocating a carte blanche regime from the Tours? Do those players throwing a hissy fit really not want a right of appeal if/when they receive a sanction in future

If players who received a sanction want to appeal that's surely ok for them to do so? (as bitter a pill as that might taste to some, its just how things are done)
Those against them appealing have predetermined their guilt of a contract you haven't even seen. There's several possible outcomes to the appeal, upheld, failed, downgraded etc 
Maybe the sanction is too high (based on the breach) and an appeal gets it dropped to 50k and one event ban, surely the players have that right to explore? 

Plus its perfectly normal too for a sanction (ban &/or fine) to be suspended pending the outcome of an appeal, and if the appeal fails the sanction will be upheld and applied to other events down the line (& if that means a particular tournament initially slated for a ban can now be entered well that's just a consequence too because its actually immaterial which three events the ban is for (or should I say_ it should be immaterial_, otherwise its an indication the sanction may not be as just as it appears)


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## Swango1980 (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right now the PGA and ET have *99% of the big players* and also have the pathway for new players - why won’t they be the big winner ? They hold most of the trump cards including help for entry into the majors and Ryder Cup

All LIV have is money



The PGA don’t need to back down and call a truce.

As for sponsors - most of the players going to LIV have lost their sponsors
		
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That is completely subjective. How do you define big players? There will be many fans in the world that will define big players as only a handful of the biggest personalities in the game (i.e. the types likely to get the biggest sponsorship deals, due to their high profile status). Therefore, if many fans listed the big players in golf, they may simply list:

Rory McIlroy
John Rahm
Justin Thomas
Jordan Spieth
DJ
Brooks Koepka
Bryson DeChambeau
Tiger Woods

There will be lots of players higher up the rankings, but many may not see them a big player in the game of golf. So, in that list alone, LIV have 37.5% of the biggest players in the game of golf. Even if we throw in another 7 PGA Tour players to the list, LIV still has 20% of the "big" players. If everyone drew up their own list, honestly, I don't think LIV would ever drop as low as 1%. I could only see that in the list of those who are already completely anti-LIV, and simply manufacture a list to ensure the big players in LIV are down at 1%.


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## IainP (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 43346



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544607105008672770

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Blimey it's like the 'red tops' one here!
A typically articulate piece from Rory dumbed down to one paragraph 😕


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Liv has 2 of the top 20. About 8 of the top50. And close to 20 of the top 100.
Thats while the owgr is still relevant, but its the only measure we have and hasnt yet been distorted.

So LIV having about 15% of the field is about right. The top 20 holding out is the key for the pgat. Without more jumping, liv will be locked in as second division to the pgat.


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## IainP (Jul 6, 2022)

☝ there may be an argument they are already distorted. It seems likely many of them knew where they were going some time ago. I find myself looking back to the end of 2021 rankings.
That said, the bookies seem to be broadly with the current rankings. Should that change then the validity may be questioned.


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

God forbid that someone from the LIV tour win a major......then what happens ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			God forbid that someone from the LIV tour win a major......then what happens ?
		
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They pick up the trophy , will get the ranking points and will be able to defend - no different to if someone else won it 🤷‍♂️

Why would it be any different


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They pick up the trophy , will get the ranking points and will be able to defend - no different to if someone else won it 🤷‍♂️

Why would it be any different
		
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I thought the World would end according to comments on here.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I thought the World would end according to comments on here.
		
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Less likely to happen though - statistically.
And will they be able to handle the relative quietness?


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Less likely to happen though - statistically.
And will they be able to handle the relative quietness? 

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Maybe they would enjoy it....
also I think St. Andrews could throw up someone from way outside the top 50
and then what happens if they turn around and join LIV


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## JamesR (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe they would enjoy it....
also I think St. Andrews could throw up someone from way outside the top 50
and then what happens if they turn around and join LIV
		
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If they're outside the top 50 they are probably already members of LIV


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## AussieKB (Jul 6, 2022)

JamesR said:



			If they're outside the top 50 they are probably already members of LIV
		
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That is what I like to see, someone with an open mind, be careful of the draft.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe they would enjoy it....
also I think St. Andrews could throw up someone from way outside the top 50
and then what happens if they turn around and join LIV
		
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If , maybe , - it’s like looking for scenarios in the hope of causing issues 

It’s a major - doesn’t matter what tour the player is on , it’s all irrelevant for the week 

It doesn’t matter if the winner comes from the LIV tour , Euro pro etc - all that matters is the major 

I hope for one week that the focus is purely on the greatest golf tournament that anyone can win


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## GB72 (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If , maybe , - it’s like looking for scenarios in the hope of causing issues

It’s a major - doesn’t matter what tour the player is on , it’s all irrelevant for the week

It doesn’t matter if the winner comes from the LIV tour , Euro pro etc - all that matters is the major

I hope for one week that the focus is purely on the greatest golf tournament that anyone can win
		
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From a markting point of view I suspect it matters. The ability to sell and event over the next few months to both crowds, corporate guests and sponsors and the amounts that can be demanded has to be impacted by whether you have the winner of the most recent major in the fied. 

I do hope that this is all put to one side for The Open, both from the standpoint of Tours point scoring and players having digs at each other. Pick up the pitchforks again after but put them down for the length of one tournament.


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## Slab (Jul 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			From a markting point of view I suspect it matters. The ability to sell and event over the next few months to both crowds, corporate guests and sponsors and the amounts that can be demanded has to be impacted by whether you have the winner of the most recent major in the fied.

*I do hope that this is all put to one side for The Open, *both from the standpoint of Tours point scoring and players having digs at each other. Pick up the pitchforks again after but put them down for the length of one tournament.
		
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That'll be 99% down to the media and their questions... I'm sure we can count on them to do the right thing


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## GB72 (Jul 6, 2022)

Slab said:



			That'll be 99% down to the media and their questions... I'm sure we can count on them to do the right thing 

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Fair point, the golf is going to be secondary then.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe they would enjoy it....
also I think St. Andrews could throw up someone from way outside the top 50
and then what happens if they turn around and join LIV
		
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The Open does produce occasional 'surprises' (Hamilton, Curtis) but not recently and not at TOC.
As players have stated, 'it's a business decision'.


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## Beezerk (Jul 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They pick up the trophy , will get the ranking points and will be able to defend - no different to if someone else won it 🤷‍♂️

Why would it be any different
		
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They’re all past it has beens aren’t they?
Paraphrasing obviously but that’s the gist of what you and others in Club PGA have said 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			They’re all past it has beens aren’t they?
Paraphrasing obviously but that’s the gist of what you and others in Club PGA have said 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
😂
		
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sorry I’m not sure what that has to do with what I posted 🤷‍♂️

and what’s club PGA 🤷‍♂️


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## rksquire (Jul 6, 2022)

Just read McIlroy's latest comments on the BBC website.  He has a seat at the table, been pretty clear about his feelings and has not only just validated LIV by saying discussions need to happen, he's validated the money by referencing LET and the good of the game.  Purely speculation on my part, and I've no idea if the Stenson rumours are true, but I believe the jeopardy and the potential devaluing of the Ryder Cup will play a part in the reasons to open discussions.  That and the fact anyone has still to clarify the 'rules' that have been broken or the reasons for waivers not being granted.


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Ryder Cup is 1 weekend in a 100. It is not a factor in anyone's thinking in this contest other than as a small bargaining chip. They have bigger fish to fry than the RC.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Ryder Cup is 1 weekend in a 100. It is not a factor in anyone's thinking in this contest other than as a small bargaining chip. They have bigger fish to fry than the RC.
		
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Indeed, and if there’s anything in the Stenson rumours I suspect he will see it the same way.
Losing Ryder Cup Captain (which is likely if we are being honest), or a LIV contract?


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## Backsticks (Jul 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Indeed, and if there’s anything in the Stenson rumours I suspect he will see it the same way.
Losing Ryder Cup Captain (which is likely if we are being honest), or a LIV contract?
		
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LIV contract for sure. But again he is over the hill as a golfer, so it adds to pre-Champions Tour flavour to LIV. Skipping being RC captain. No biggie at all. Has long been overplayed as a job of any worth.


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## JamesR (Jul 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			That is what I like to see, someone with an open mind, be careful of the draft.
		
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NBA or NFL?


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Graeme McDowell reporting receiving some offensive comments.
Not really unexpected, but not how conversations with Golf stars should work.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
I hope for one week that the focus is purely on the greatest golf tournament that anyone can win
		
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Long range forecast is for some rain, but little wind, so scores likely good, even if conditions aren't.


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## Beezerk (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Graeme McDowell reporting receiving some offensive comments.
Not really unexpected, but not how conversations with Golf stars should work.
		
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He should read this thread, some absolutely embarrassing comments made about professional sportsmen.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2022)

I haven't heard what sort of offensive comments are being made to GMac, and they shouldn't happen, but he knows better than most other players to think that he can keep contentious political issues out of this, and all his  repetition of 'We are just here to play golf' is not going to be an adequate response. 

When LIV players joined, they knew 100% that they were going to get grief about Saudi.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I haven't heard what sort of offensive comments are being made to GMac, and they shouldn't happen, but he knows better than most other players to think that he can keep contentious political issues out of this, and all his  repetition of 'We are just here to play golf' is not going to be an adequate response. 

When LIV players joined, they knew 100% that they were going to get grief about Saudi.
		
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He can still call out offensive comments though, can he not? Unless you are suggesting he should either just accept them, or he should have elected not to join LIV simply because he might get some offensive comments? Which would be a pretty poor way of making a professional decision.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			He should read this thread, some absolutely embarrassing comments made about professional sportsmen.
		
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I think some directed at him would have received instant ban on here!s


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## Reemul (Jul 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			LIV contract for sure. But again he is over the hill as a golfer, so it adds to pre-Champions Tour flavour to LIV. Skipping being RC captain. No biggie at all. Has long been overplayed as a job of any worth.
		
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This is such a pointless comment. I am old, over the hill, worked damn hard as a youngster and now I am older would like more money for less if I could, who wouldn't, maybe you, but the majority would and you can 100% understand that. If another employer offered me a 3 day week for exactly the same as my 5 day I would be all over it.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Fair point, the golf is going to be secondary then.
		
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At times, I believe.
I can remember one (in)famous question by 'the Press' - handled perfectly by Dr Christiaan Barnard - about the 1st heart transplant that demonstrates the attitude of 'the Press' at times.


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## JamesR (Jul 7, 2022)

Reemul said:



			This is such a pointless comment. I am old, over the hill, worked damn hard as a youngster and now I am older would like more money for less if I could, who wouldn't, maybe you, but the majority would and you can 100% understand that. If another employer offered me a 3 day week for exactly the same as my 5 day I would be all over it.
		
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I have absolutely no issue with golfers taking the easy money. I just can't take to the rubbish they were spouting about growing the game etc.

Another point, sportsmen often want more than just money. Wins, records, beating the best etc, are important to them, once financial security is achieved. So, if LIV doesn't become a recognised major tour, will they be happy without the kudos of winning the "elite" events?
Of course it may become elite and that becomes a moot point.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			He can still call out offensive comments though, can he not? Unless you are suggesting he should either just accept them, or he should have elected not to join LIV simply because he might get some offensive comments? Which would be a pretty poor way of making a professional decision.
		
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Read what I wrote. I said he should EXPECT them. If you stood in front of The Kop at Anfield and shouted that Jurgen Klopp is an incompetent idiot, you should expect to be bottled. The crowd shouldn't bottle you, and I don't approve of them doing so, but you can't say you shouldn't have expect it.

GMac shas been giving his analysis of Saudi human rights, 9/11 etc. He is digging that hole much deeper, and he should consider just shutting up. 

In the meantime, GMac can respond to the comments as he wishes, taking into account whether his responses will make the situation better or worse. If he doesn't care about the origins of Saudi money, that is up to him. But those who sponsor him, watch him and support him may have different views and he knew that before he decided. If he weighed that into his decision, fine. If he didn't, more fool him. He also knew that he would be banned by the PGA Tour, not be Ryder Cup captain etc, so if he is fine with that too, cool.


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## Beezerk (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I think some directed at him would have received instant ban on here!s
		
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I haven’t seen them, I’m guessing they’re pretty brutal.
Gold old Tw@tter 🙈


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Read what I wrote. I said he should EXPECT them. If you stood in front of The Kop at Anfield and shouted that Jurgen Klopp is an incompetent idiot, you should expect to be bottled. The crowd shouldn't bottle you, and I don't approve of them doing so, but you can't say you shouldn't have expect it.

GMac can respond to the comments as he wishes, taking into account whether his responses will make the situation better or worse. If he doesn't care about the origins of Saudi money, that is up to him. But those who sponsor him, watch him and support him may have different views and he knew that before he decided. If he weighed that into his decision, fine. If he didn't, more fool him. He also knew that he would be banned by the PGA Tour, not be Ryder Cup captain etc, so if he is fine with that too, cool.
		
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What are the ‘origins of Saudi Money’?


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What are the ‘origins of Saudi Money’?
		
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Just in case you don't know/care....It's the folk castigated here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human...d from the,which includes freedom of religion.
Other references are available, but you carry on with your use of blinkers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			He should read this thread, some absolutely embarrassing comments made about professional sportsmen.
		
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Nonsense - there has been nothing said on here about any of the players that is “embarrassing” nor something that hasn’t been said about players many times over the years.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just in case you don't know/care....It's the folk castigated here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#:~:text=Saudi Arabia abstained from the,which includes freedom of religion.
Other references are available, but you carry on with your use of blinkers.
		
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So they generate billions of dollars from violating human rights?


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## IainP (Jul 7, 2022)

Re GMc
https://m.independent.ie/sport/golf...g-i-have-never-had-to-deal-with-41813622.html


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## pokerjoke (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Read what I wrote. I said he should EXPECT them. If you stood in front of The Kop at Anfield and shouted that Jurgen Klopp is an incompetent idiot, you should expect to be bottled. The crowd shouldn't bottle you, and I don't approve of them doing so, but you can't say you shouldn't have expect it.

GMac shas been giving his analysis of Saudi human rights, 9/11 etc. He is digging that hole much deeper, and he should consider just shutting up.

In the meantime, GMac can respond to the comments as he wishes, taking into account whether his responses will make the situation better or worse. If he doesn't care about the origins of Saudi money, that is up to him. But those who sponsor him, watch him and support him may have different views and he knew that before he decided. If he weighed that into his decision, fine. If he didn't, more fool him. He also knew that he would be banned by the PGA Tour, not be Ryder Cup captain etc, so if he is fine with that too, cool.
		
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Your Klopp analogy is pathetic 
Maybe you should read what your posting before posting.
Bottled lol 
One of the reasons the gap between LIV golfers and PGA tour players is the PGA players dissing the LIV players.
Apparently all the golfers that have gone over are past their prime and on the wain,so why worry then.
Just get on with it.
The more they comment the bigger the divide will be.


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## Depreston (Jul 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Ryder Cup is 1 weekend in a 100. It is not a factor in anyone's thinking in this contest other than as a small bargaining chip. They have bigger fish to fry than the RC.
		
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the players? Absolutely but the DP tour is pretty much reliant on the Ryder Cups revenue to survive tbh

It’s probably a stronger bargain position for the LiV players than the tour


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So they generate billions of dollars from violating human rights?
		
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I answered our question.
If you wish to start a 'political' thread, good luck to you.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I answered our question.
If you wish to start a 'political' thread, good luck to you.
		
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There’s absolutely no need to start a political thread and I aren’t posting links to politically informative web pages am I?
Of course, we all know the Saudis generate their wealth primarily from oil. You could have just acknowledged that rather than trying to be a little clever clogs….


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...You could have just acknowledged that rather than trying to be a little *clever clogs*….
		
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Backatcha!
If you knew that, why ask? No, don't answer that!


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## Swango1980 (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Read what I wrote. I said he should EXPECT them. If you stood in front of The Kop at Anfield and shouted that Jurgen Klopp is an incompetent idiot, you should expect to be bottled. The crowd shouldn't bottle you, and I don't approve of them doing so, but you can't say you shouldn't have expect it.

GMac shas been giving his analysis of Saudi human rights, 9/11 etc. He is digging that hole much deeper, and he should consider just shutting up.

In the meantime, GMac can respond to the comments as he wishes, taking into account whether his responses will make the situation better or worse. If he doesn't care about the origins of Saudi money, that is up to him. But those who sponsor him, watch him and support him may have different views and he knew that before he decided. If he weighed that into his decision, fine. If he didn't, more fool him. He also knew that he would be banned by the PGA Tour, not be Ryder Cup captain etc, so if he is fine with that too, cool.
		
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I read exactly what you wrote. I just don't get the point you're trying to make. Of course any player will expect some tough points of view against them. And, with so many morons in this world, some of those opinions will be expressed in a nasty way. He has simply called those out. What's wrong with that? The fact you bothered making this point, either suggests he should just shut up as the nasty comments come in, or that he should have made a different decision simply to avoid getting those comments in the first place. Both points of view seem absurd. The only other angle I can get is you are just stating the blinding obvious (although I'm sure a professional sportsperson (or any high profile celebrity) knows a lot more about getting nasty comments than yourself, so I'm sure he would have expected some nasty backlash.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 7, 2022)

Moving forward, let’s hope Rory’s comments could be the catalyst for some sensible negotiations from all parties concerned. His comments about ‘mistakes being made’ echo my feelings which I’ve mentioned plenty of times on here - ultimately the sanctioning, banning and fining of players will create divide. Hopefully Monahan is prepared to take a step back to find a more suitable resolution for his organisation.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Moving forward, let’s hope Rory’s comments could be the catalyst for some sensible negotiations from all parties concerned. His comments about ‘mistakes being made’ echo my feelings which I’ve mentioned plenty of times on here - ultimately the sanctioning, banning and fining of players will create divide. Hopefully Monahan is prepared to take a step back to find a more suitable resolution for his organisation.
		
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As he believes that the LIV 'Tour' is an existential threat to The PGA Tour, I doubt he's going to be any less aggressive in his approach - at least for a while. It has, however meant that PGAT members that have been faithful to the org have been rewarded with additional 'benefits' - though there will have been/will be a cost to those, just as there would be in a commercial environment.

Btw. What mistakes do you think the LIV Tour made?


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## PieMan (Jul 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Moving forward, let’s hope Rory’s comments could be the catalyst for some sensible negotiations from all parties concerned. His comments about ‘mistakes being made’ echo my feelings which I’ve mentioned plenty of times on here - ultimately the sanctioning, banning and fining of players will create divide. *Hopefully Monahan is prepared to take a step back to find a more suitable resolution for his organisation.[*/QUOTE]

I think he's found one. The sanctioning, banning and fining of those who have gone over to LIV!! 

Let's not forget that whilst Rory's views carry a lot of clout on the PGA Tour, there will be those who share the same views - or even stronger - as Horschel.

There will be a lot of PGA Tour pros and those on Korn Ferry who will benefit from the LIV defectors not being around every week taking up playing spots.
		
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## Dando (Jul 7, 2022)

Given the recent high profile resignation I think there might be a new addition to the tour 🤣🤣


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## Beezerk (Jul 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nonsense - there has been nothing said on here about any of the players that is “embarrassing” nor something that hasn’t been said about players many times over the years.
		
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Wow, I’ve certainly read some cringey comments but then again I don’t have massive blinkers on 🙈😂😂😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, I’ve certainly read some cringey comments but then again I don’t have massive blinkers on 🙈😂😂😂
		
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“Cringey” ? You can highlight them if you wish but if it’s talk about players chasing money or being over the hill etc that sort of talk has been going on for years - remember the flak Rory got when he went to Nike ? Or when players like Westwood got picked for Ryder Cups ? All the same sort of talk about players 

On other social media outlets players have been getting death threats it seems amongst other stuff and a lot of the “beheading” etc 

And then you have the other end of the scale and watch some of the stuff Perez is putting out - that’s been beyond crass


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## D-S (Jul 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545002571374465025


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## Springveldt (Jul 7, 2022)

Featured groups this morning with Rahm, Scheffler and Hovland was good. Watching Viktor shanking approaches, moving the ball 3 inches while in the rough and fatting pitch shots was top quality golf. Then got to see the best in the world take a drop from the rough, fat his approach 40 feet short and run his putt 10 foot past.

For those criticising the golf that LIV show I guess this is what happens when you show every shot.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I read exactly what you wrote. I just don't get the point you're trying to make. Of course any player will expect some tough points of view against them. And, with so many morons in this world, some of those opinions will be expressed in a nasty way. He has simply called those out. What's wrong with that? The fact you bothered making this point, either suggests he should just shut up as the nasty comments come in, or that he should have made a different decision simply to avoid getting those comments in the first place. Both points of view seem absurd. The only other angle I can get is you are just stating the blinding obvious (although I'm sure a professional sportsperson (or any high profile celebrity) knows a lot more about getting nasty comments than yourself, so I'm sure he would have expected some nasty backlash.
		
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I can see you didn't get the point, not even close, so your response misses the mark, and instead you choose to respond by getting personal. I do know something about recognising inferiority complexes, even when well-deserved. Would you like advice on getting a referral?

GMac made some ill-advised comments about 9/11 and the Saudi regime. Some people used mean words to him. Boo flipping hoo.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I can see you didn't get the point, not even close, so your response misses the mark, and instead you* choose to respond by getting personal.* I do know something about recognising inferiority complexes, even when well-deserved. Would you like advice on getting a referral?

GMac made some ill-advised comments about 9/11 and the Saudi regime. Some people used mean words to him. Boo flipping hoo.
		
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Getting personal. You are deluded now (which NOW might be getting personal), as my comments were simply related to the point you were making. And that I couldn't see the point you were trying to make. It is interesting that you have decided to get personal though, with your comments after the bold bit. 

So, you don't like that I'm questioning your point? Boo flipping hoo!


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Getting personal. You are deluded now (which NOW might be getting personal), as my comments were simply related to the point you were making. And that I couldn't see the point you were trying to make. It is interesting that you have decided to get personal though, with your comments after the bold bit.

So, you don't like that I'm questioning your point? Boo flipping hoo! 

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That is pitiful. Grow up.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 7, 2022)

Ethan n Swango
Handbags away now please


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Re GMc
https://m.independent.ie/sport/golf...g-i-have-never-had-to-deal-with-41813622.html

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The irony is strong in this one. 




			He added: “Listen, I’d love to be back at the Irish Open next year and like I say I can only apologise to the Irish golf fans that I wasn’t there last week. And like I say, *unfortunately I had pretty good reasons for it regards what I have to commit to with the LIV Tour. I have to be all-in with those events. I can’t just dip my toe in.*”
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 7, 2022)

Poulter 8 over


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## Marshy77 (Jul 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Poulter 8 over 
	View attachment 43400

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Willett 7 over


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 7, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Willett 7 over
		
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🤷‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Where's 'Mel' with the LIV propaganda/spin on the above scores?
Still too early to head to Trump Bedminster yet.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️
		
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Thought you were randomly quoting scores of players.


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## Backsticks (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Where's 'Mel' with the LIV propaganda/spin on the above scores?
		
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With no teams in the Scottish Open, presumably not following. Without the Crushers and the Majesticks competiting with all new teams and without teams points contributing to the end of season team finale, there seems little point. The Open will be a bit of a damp squib without them too. Maybe R&A trying to come up with a teams structure to make the Open more relevant and attractive to the youf so that they can wear their Fireballs shirts, cheer, drink beer, live music. I dont know how the Open has any appeal with out live music.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			With no teams in the Scottish Open, presumably not following. Without the Crushers and the Majesticks competiting with all new teams and without teams points contributing to the end of season team finale, there seems little point. The Open will be a bit of a damp squib without them too. Maybe R&A trying to come up with a teams structure to make the Open more relevant and attractive to the youf so that they can wear their Fireballs shirts, cheer, drink beer, live music. I dont know how the Open has any appeal with out live music.
		
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Surely you jest!  Though without appropriate Smilies, it's hard to tell.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you jest!  Though without appropriate Smilies, it's hard to tell.

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Well it's being played around a goat track so it's not going to have much appeal.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well it's being played around a goat track so it's not going to have much appeal. 

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Yeah, they even skimp on greens and maintenance of fairways and rough!


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## Backsticks (Jul 7, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you jest!  Though without appropriate Smilies, it's hard to tell.

Click to expand...


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Featured groups this morning with Rahm, Scheffler and Hovland was good. Watching Viktor shanking approaches, moving the ball 3 inches while in the rough and fatting pitch shots was top quality golf. Then got to see the best in the world take a drop from the rough, fat his approach 40 feet short and run his putt 10 foot past.

For those criticising the golf that LIV show I guess this is what happens when you show every shot.
		
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And at the end of the week Victor and Scottie won’t get paid for playing like that because they’ll miss the cut.  Whereas on the LIV tour doing the same thing means you still get paid. 

I think you’ll find that’s the crux of the issue that some have with the LIV tour. The pros are as capable of failure as we are, but only the LIV tour rewards it financially.


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## RRidges (Jul 8, 2022)

I watched some of the Portland LIV event on YT. Unimpressed. Commentators were trying too hard and got quality of shots wrong far too often. Crowds weren't great, even when, sold out. Nice scenic course though.
Looking forward to watching my favourite tournament next week. I was actually there last year and followed Morikawa on day 2.
Temps here still in high 80s/low 90s here so still too hot to play.


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## IainP (Jul 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			And at the end of the week Victor and Scottie won’t get paid for playing like that because they’ll miss the cut.  Whereas on the LIV tour doing the same thing means you still get paid. 

I think you’ll find that’s the crux of the issue that some have with the LIV tour. The pros are as capable of failure as we are, but only the LIV tour rewards it financially.
		
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Maybe, guess there may be an argument with only 8 planned events and the inevitable fall out that they needed to do that.

Perhaps it is the 'invitational' nature that is more the perceived issue. Found the below from the 'net ...


PGA Tour events with no cut:

The Sentry Tournament of Champions

WGC-Mexico Championship

WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play

WGC-FedEx St. Jude Invitational

BMW Championship

Tour Championship

CJ Cup at Nine Bridges

Zozo Championship

WGC-HSBC Champions


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## AussieKB (Jul 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			Maybe, guess there may be an argument with only 8 planned events and the inevitable fall out that they needed to do that.

Perhaps it is the 'invitational' nature that is more the perceived issue. Found the below from the 'net ...


PGA Tour events with no cut:

The Sentry Tournament of Champions

WGC-Mexico Championship

WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play

WGC-FedEx St. Jude Invitational

BMW Championship

Tour Championship

CJ Cup at Nine Bridges

Zozo Championship

WGC-HSBC Champions
		
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Don't bring logic into this debate.


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## IainP (Jul 8, 2022)

Thought this interesting from Justin Harding - 

“I have not signed a contract with LIV, so I feel like I am in a slightly different position,” said the 37-year-old. “I’ve played in the ones I’ve got into via the world rankings and I have no idea if I’m in the next one.”

Arguably a bigger risk to those not 'contracted', but guess the short term pay day was the temptation.

Perhaps implies there is some sort of criteria emerging/forming as the rosta grows, yet to be shared...


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## Springveldt (Jul 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			And at the end of the week Victor and Scottie won’t get paid for playing like that because they’ll miss the cut.  Whereas on the LIV tour doing the same thing means you still get paid.

I think you’ll find that’s the crux of the issue that some have with the LIV tour. The pros are as capable of failure as we are, but only the LIV tour rewards it financially.
		
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But why shouldn’t they get paid? They have provided entertainment for the event and brought fans in as I’m sure lots there wanted to see the number 1 player in the world. 

Why does golf have to be so cut throat? Is it simply because “that’s the  way it’s always been”?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			But why shouldn’t they get paid? They have provided entertainment for the event and brought fans in as I’m sure lots there wanted to see the number 1 player in the world.

Why does golf have to be so cut throat? Is it simply because “that’s the  way it’s always been”?
		
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I think the answer to that is in BiM's post that you've quoted - he is expressing the view that missing a cut is failure, and shouldn't be financially rewarded. Let's face it, that kind of rationale is absurd when you step back to think about it - it might apply to the top players who set the bar high for themselves, but for the vast majoritiy of the players who are scrapping to make cuts week in, week out, even getting into that position should be applauded, and rewarded.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			But why shouldn’t they get paid? They have provided entertainment for the event and brought fans in as I’m sure lots there wanted to see the number 1 player in the world. 

Why does golf have to be so cut throat? Is it simply because “that’s the  way it’s always been”?
		
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Personally I would prefer for all players to be paid an amount to cover reasonable expenses,  at all levels of the game.  That though would be at the expense of players higher up the leaderboard at every level.  At Euro Pro your there is not enough in the pot to pay the player finishing below 5th reasonable expenses.  That is the real commercial environment nearly all pro golfers are in,  not the one solely financed on a regime that needs to gain favour with the world in order to survive.


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			But why shouldn’t they get paid? They have provided entertainment for the event and brought fans in as I’m sure lots there wanted to see the number 1 player in the world.

Why does golf have to be so cut throat? Is it simply because “that’s the  way it’s always been”?
		
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It isn't a team sport, they aren't employed. They are more akin to professional gamblers than baseball players or footballers. They choose, within limits, where to play to optimise their chances of making good money, and if they play well, they get paid well. 

In the Portland LIV event, Jediah Morgan got paid $120,000 for finishing dead last with 3 rounds totalling +21, 34 shots behind the winner. I think he should be paying them.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 8, 2022)

Those players who are missing the cut are still covering expenses through sponsorship. Winnings needed to be viewed as bonuses and if a professional can’t make a living without bonuses then they really should be looking for another career. 

That’s the brutal reality and no different to many other professional sports. It’s tough at the top. Deal with it.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It isn't a team sport, they aren't employed. They are more akin to professional gamblers than baseball players or footballers. They choose, within limits, where to play to optimise their chances of making good money, and if they play well, they get paid well.

In the Portland LIV event, Jediah Morgan got paid $120,000 for finishing dead last with 3 rounds totalling +21, 34 shots behind the winner. I think he should be paying them.
		
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Good for Jediah Morgan, he's one of the lucky one's that got an opportunity when the LIV was starting out, there are plenty more like him, but he still contributed to the event at Centurion, he was part of the 48 man field that turned out for 3 days, and he quite rightly got paid for it.


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## Springveldt (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It isn't a team sport, they aren't employed. They are more akin to professional gamblers than baseball players or footballers. They choose, within limits, where to play to optimise their chances of making good money, and if they play well, they get paid well.

In the Portland LIV event, Jediah Morgan got paid $120,000 for finishing dead last with 3 rounds totalling +21, 34 shots behind the winner. I think he should be paying them.
		
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He had a bad week so should be paying them? Tough crowd.

I really don’t get this line of thinking. They are part of the event, they should receive something even if they play crap. Other non team sports get paid for making it to the main event (tennis, darts, snooker etc) why does golf have to be different?

You don’t see other sports saying “sorry you played crap and got knocked out at the first round so you get nothing. Thanks for coming though.”


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think the answer to that is in BiM's post that you've quoted - he is expressing the view that missing a cut is failure, and shouldn't be financially rewarded. Let's face it, that kind of rationale is absurd when you step back to think about it - it might apply to the top players who set the bar high for themselves, but for the vast majoritiy of the players who are scrapping to make cuts week in, week out, even getting into that position should be applauded, and rewarded.
		
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Missing the cut IS failure!
If all are paid, it's a 'circus', not a 'tournament'. How much coverage, even in LIV events, has been of those players who are at the back of the field on day 3....sod-all! That's just the way competitive  IS! No different to Tennis, Darts, Snooker and other individual sports.



Mel Smooth said:



			Good for Jediah Morgan, he's one of the lucky one's that got an opportunity when the LIV was starting out, there are plenty more like him, but he still contributed to the event at Centurion, he was part of the 48 man field that turned out for 3 days, and he quite rightly got paid *an obscene amount* for it.
		
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FTFY! How many seconds of YT time was devoted to him? And the LIV payment rules are still 'not transparent'. So it's quite possible he didn't get paid the full amount on top of whatever sign-on reward. PGAT/DPWT/Opens are absolutely transparent about their payments.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			He had a bad week so should be paying them? Tough crowd.

I really don’t get this line of thinking. They are part of the event, they should receive something even if they play crap. Other non team sports get paid for making it to the main event (tennis, darts, snooker etc) why does golf have to be different?

You don’t see other sports saying “sorry you played crap and got knocked out at the first round so you get nothing. Thanks for coming though.”
		
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The players have their own sponsors so will be getting paid 

also how many players are in a darts or snooker event for example? Around 150 golfers per event - just because the Saudi State are willing to run the competitions at huge losses a normal tour won’t have that luxury 

The players have the chance to play in a tournament evey single week - how many snooker , darts etc events are there ?

it’s never easy to compare sports 

Golf rewards good play , making the cut is akin to making the main comp and the golfer is rewarded for that - both financially and points wise 

and when they do start playing well they get entry into the WGC’s which are events without cuts etc


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			He had a bad week so should be paying them? Tough crowd.

I really don’t get this line of thinking. They are part of the event, they should receive something even if they play crap. Other non team sports get paid for making it to the main event (tennis, darts, snooker etc) why does golf have to be different?

You don’t see other sports saying “sorry you played crap and got knocked out at the first round so you get nothing. Thanks for coming though.”
		
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Maybe it'd be more difficult to pay out every place at the low level tour events, but I'd have thought it would be easier on the PGA Tour. Not sure how many miss the cut normally, is it about 70? If all 70 players got $5,000, that would be a total of $350,000. The top 3 places got $1,566,000, $948,300 and $600,300. So, I'm pretty sure the prize money for all places that made the cut could be found to supplement the $350,000. Sure, $5,000 is nothing to a big player who misses the cut. But, it could probably help those that are struggling to stay on the PGA Tour. However, they are still playing in the biggest professional golf tour in the world, so you'd think there'd be some sort of compensation to getting to that point?

Have there any been any cases of a player qualifying for the PGA Tour, and then never making the cut? I think it is harsh to have the ability to qualify for the biggest tour in the world, and then get paid absolutely nothing for being there. At least if they got paid about $5,000 for missing a cut, they'd at least get $100,000 to $150,000 for the year, before being demoted back to a lower tour.


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

This is what I do not get. Professional Sport is entertainment, that simple and that is often forgotten. Yes, at the end of the day a winner is crowned to add to the drama but it is a form of entertainment. In other forms of entertainment, everyone adds to the overall event and even the lowest extra in a film, for example, gets paid so logic dictates that everyone involved in making the event what it is should receive some form of recompense.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			This is what I do not get. Professional Sport is entertainment, that simple and that is often forgotten. Yes, at the end of the day a winner is crowned to add to the drama but it is a form of entertainment. In other forms of entertainment, everyone adds to the overall event and even the lowest extra in a film, for example, gets paid so logic dictates that everyone involved in making the event what it is should receive some form of recompense.
		
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Are they there to entertain? Or are they there to compete and the entertainment is a consequence of players and teams competing ?

When someone enters a competition I suspect their goal is to win and compete as opposed to “entertaining” people - it’s all about winning 

Trying to compare to film making ?

If a player is constantly missing the cut in a “Competition” why should they be rewarded for not reaching the standards required ?

If a footballer doesn’t reach a standard required he is let go 

If any sportsman doesn’t reach the required standard needed to compete they don’t get the rewards 

All this just being given money to turn up appears to be a new thing because a state are willing to just get people there

Golfers on the pro tour get well paid , they earn a good amount of money , and they also are able to add their own sponsors all over their clothes and bags to supplement their income


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they there to entertain? Or are they there to compete and the entertainment is a consequence of players and teams competing ?

When someone enters a competition I suspect their goal is to win and compete as opposed to “entertaining” people - it’s all about winning

Trying to compare to film making ?

If a player is constantly missing the cut in a “Competition” why should they be rewarded for not reaching the standards required ?

If a footballer doesn’t reach a standard required he is let go

If any sportsman doesn’t reach the required standard needed to compete they don’t get the rewards

All this just being given money to turn up appears to be a new thing because a state are willing to just get people there

Golfers on the pro tour get well paid , they earn a good amount of money , and they also are able to add their own sponsors all over their clothes and bags to supplement their income
		
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But Phil, they are the best in the world - the top point something percent of golfers - the footballers that play at that level play at your PSG's, Real Madrids, Barcelonas, some are even prepared to go to Liverpool....

They all get guaranteed payments that are eye watering, and bonuses if they play well, plus the endorsements that you talk about beig the "bread and butter" for golfers.

Why should the world's best golfers be given a comparative raw deal by the body that controls them - I know the scaling of finance is different in football, but even so, the players that are good enough to compete on global tours should be getting paid for being there.


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Good for Jediah Morgan, he's one of the lucky one's that got an opportunity when the LIV was starting out, there are plenty more like him, but he still contributed to the event at Centurion, he was part of the 48 man field that turned out for 3 days, and he quite rightly got paid for it.
		
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He truly is part of the Who's That of golf.


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they there to entertain? Or are they there to compete and the entertainment is a consequence of players and teams competing ?

When someone enters a competition I suspect their goal is to win and compete as opposed to “entertaining” people - it’s all about winning

Trying to compare to film making ?

If a player is constantly missing the cut in a “Competition” why should they be rewarded for not reaching the standards required ?

If a footballer doesn’t reach a standard required he is let go

If any sportsman doesn’t reach the required standard needed to compete they don’t get the rewards

All this just being given money to turn up appears to be a new thing because a state are willing to just get people there

Golfers on the pro tour get well paid , they earn a good amount of money , and they also are able to add their own sponsors all over their clothes and bags to supplement their income
		
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Agreed and a footballer is paid until they let go in a same way a PGA tour member should be paid until they lose their tour card. It may be about winning to those taking part but the fnancial side of it is all about the entertainment and the number of people wathcing. If it were only all about the winning, we could simply return to amateur sport. Amazing how it becomes all about the winning only once you have enough money to not worry about putting food on the table for the rest of your life. 

I guess the comparitive would be footballers only getting paid if they finish high enough in the league. Shoudl players for relegated premiership sides not get paid. They have, after all 'missed the cut' and so were not up to standard and so do not deserve any wages.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they there to entertain? Or are they there to compete and the entertainment is a consequence of players and teams competing ?

When someone enters a competition I suspect their goal is to win and compete as opposed to “entertaining” people - it’s all about winning

Trying to compare to film making ?

If a player is constantly missing the cut in a “Competition” why should they be rewarded for not reaching the standards required ?

*If a footballer doesn’t reach a standard required he is let go*

If any sportsman doesn’t reach the required standard needed to compete they don’t get the rewards

All this just being given money to turn up appears to be a new thing because a state are willing to just get people there

Golfers on the pro tour get well paid , they earn a good amount of money , and they also are able to add their own sponsors all over their clothes and bags to supplement their income
		
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Are you telling me Paul Pogba didn't get paid at Man Utd, or Phil Jones!?

Footballers get paid, even if they are pants. Of course, they harm their future chances at getting good contracts. You could still pay a golfer for missing cuts. However, if they keep failing to play well, they will not be on the best professional tour for much longer.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But Phil, they are the best in the world - the top point something percent of golfers - the footballers that play at that level play at your PSG's, Real Madrids, Barcelonas, some are even prepared to go to Liverpool....

They all get guaranteed payments that are eye watering, and bonuses if they play well, plus the endorsements that you talk about beig the "bread and butter" for golfers.

Why should the world's best golfers be given a comparative raw deal by the body that controls them - I know the scaling of finance is different in football, but even so, the players that are good enough to compete on global tours should be getting paid for being there.
		
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Which one of the worlds best golfers is getting a “raw deal” ?

If they are one of the worlds best golfers they will be earning millions from endorsements alone plus millions from performances on the course in the tournaments ? 

Which one of those golfers you are talking about is getting the raw deal ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you telling me Paul Pogba didn't get paid at Man Utd, or Phil Jones!?

Footballers get paid, even if they are pants. Of course, they harm their future chances at getting good contracts. You could still pay a golfer for missing cuts. However, if they keep failing to play well, they will not be on the best professional tour for much longer.
		
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Maybe you should take a step back and read what you highlighted 🙄


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But Phil, they are the best in the world - the top point something percent of golfers - the footballers that play at that level play at your PSG's, Real Madrids, Barcelonas, some are even prepared to go to Liverpool....

They all get guaranteed payments that are eye watering, and bonuses if they play well, plus the endorsements that you talk about beig the "bread and butter" for golfers.

Why should the world's best golfers be given a comparative raw deal by the body that controls them - I know the scaling of finance is different in football, but even so, the players that are good enough to compete on global tours should be getting paid for being there.
		
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Is that player for Barca able to go and play for Athletico as well. Under your view of his golf should work, they would.Does a golfer get fined if they are late for training? The footballer does.

This is the central issue here. The LIV golfers whine on about being independent contractors, usually overlooking the contract part, and want to be able to move freely between events, but they also compare themselves against employees for teams. 

Do they want to be employees of the PGA Tour? Told which events to turn up for and when to train, and even what to eat? Sounds a bit like the LIV Tour has a stricter idea on determining who will turn up.


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Agreed and a footballer is paid until they let go in a same way a PGA tour member should be paid until they lose their tour card. It may be about winning to those taking part but the fnancial side of it is all about the entertainment and the number of people wathcing. If it were only all about the winning, we could simply return to amateur sport. Amazing how it becomes all about the winning only once you have enough money to not worry about putting food on the table for the rest of your life.

I guess the comparitive would be footballers only getting paid if they finish high enough in the league. Shoudl players for relegated premiership sides not get paid. They have, after all 'missed the cut' and so were not up to standard and so do not deserve any wages.
		
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A player can play badly for a successful team, or play well for a bad one. Golfers are all measured against the same standard, the 54 or 72 hole score. Footballers are not.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			But why shouldn’t they get paid? They have provided entertainment for the event and brought fans in as I’m sure lots there wanted to see the number 1 player in the world.

Why does golf have to be so cut throat? Is it simply because “that’s the  way it’s always been”?
		
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They are effectively paid to entertain the crowds, who will marvel at their skill.  They are not providing that service.  If you have a contractor turn up to do a job at your house & he screws it up do you pay him?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe you should take a step back and read what you highlighted 🙄
		
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Yeah, read it thanks. I'm still happy that footballers that fail to play well still get paid. And, golfers that fail to make cuts don't get paid. It appeared you were trying to justify golfers not getting paid, and equating it to footballers not getting a new contract? Which, of course, is not comparing like with like. A footballer being let go by the club is like a golfer losing their spot on the PGA Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Is that player for Barca able to go and play for Athletico as well. Under your view of his golf should work, they would.Does a golfer get fined if they are late for training? The footballer does.

This is the central issue here. The LIV golfers whine on about being independent contractors, usually overlooking the contract part, and want to be able to move freely between events, but they also compare themselves against employees for teams.

Do they want to be employees of the PGA Tour? Told which events to turn up for and when to train, and even what to eat? Sounds a bit like the LIV Tour has a stricter idea on determining who will turn up.
		
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Well, the players on the LIV series - who do get guaranteed payments, can actually go and play elsewhere as well can't they, like they are doing this weekend?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, read it thanks. I'm still happy that footballers that fail to play well still get paid. And, golfers that fail to make cuts don't get paid. It appeared you were trying to justify golfers not getting paid, and equating it to footballers not getting a new contract? Which, of course, is not comparing like with like. A footballer being let go by the club is like a golfer losing their spot on the PGA Tour.
		
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So where in my post did I say that Phil Jones and Pogba didn’t get paid 🙄

it was quite simple - if a footballer doesn’t perform to a required standard for a club they are let go 

If a golfer doesn’t play to the required standard they don’t go paid

People can look for any comparison they want 

Golf is golf - it has its format , it rewards the golfers that do well and if someone doesn’t do well then they don’t get the rewards


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which one of the worlds best golfers is getting a “raw deal” ?

If they are one of the worlds best golfers they will be earning millions from endorsements alone plus millions from performances on the course in the tournaments ?

Which one of those golfers you are talking about is getting the raw deal ?
		
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You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion. 

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?


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## Slab (Jul 8, 2022)

More repeats than UK Gold


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 8, 2022)

So LIV is paying players appearance money.

That's been happening on the main tours for donkey's years. 

The likes of Seve, Tiger or Rory didn't travel to Japan, China or the Middle East without a guaranteed fee up front.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So where in my post did I say that Phil Jones and Pogba didn’t get paid 🙄

it was quite simple - *if a footballer doesn’t perform to a required standard for a club they are let go

If a golfer doesn’t play to the required standard they don’t go paid*

People can look for any comparison they want

Golf is golf - it has its format , it rewards the golfers that do well and if someone doesn’t do well then they don’t get the rewards
		
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So, even when I basically clarified exactly what I was getting at in post 3513, you still completely ignore it?

You are NOT comparing like with like. Therefore, the comparison you are trying to make falls flat on its face. Dare I say, perhaps you should read your post again. Really think hard about the point you are trying to make. 

But, I will clarify my counter point yet again. A footballer doesn't play to the required standard, they get paid. A golfer doesn't play to the required standard, they don't. Do you see? Not the same.


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, the players on the LIV series - who do get guaranteed payments, can actually go and play elsewhere as well can't they, like they are doing this weekend?
		
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The point, which you skirted, is that PGA Tour players are not the same as team players, who are highly restricted and contracted. Should the PGA Tour be able to demand transfer fees like football clubs for players who want to switch? 

The LIV Tour players can currently play elsewhere because the LIV Tour is trying to test the rules of the PGA Tour legally. If Jediah plays all 8 events and finishes deal last in each one, he makes nearly a million dollars.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 8, 2022)

Professional footballers include the ones all the way down the leagues to those who can’t afford to make a living but do it anyway. That’s sport. Take the idiot blinkers off.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?
		
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Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil 🤔

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years 

And a footballer is “employed” by the club 

Who employs the golfer 

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So where in my post did I say that Phil Jones and Pogba didn’t get paid 🙄

it was quite simple - if a footballer doesn’t perform to a required standard for a club they are let go

If a golfer doesn’t play to the required standard they don’t go paid

People can look for any comparison they want

Golf is golf - it has its format , it rewards the golfers that do well and if someone doesn’t do well then they don’t get the rewards
		
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It is that last line that interests me. It is so definitive with a strong implication that nothing should ever change 

Formats can change, pay and conditions can change, everything can change and evolve. 

The PGA tour does one thing, LIV does another, no issue there, life is richer for variety. Now, if the members of the PGA Tour start pushing for payment throughout the field then there may be an underlying issue that this has helped bring to the fore. If not, all good, as you were. 

Never understood why one thing has to be right and another has to be wrong and why different theories and ideologies cannot work side by side. Personally, I think LIV is paying too much for finishing last (but then again you have to when trying to start from scratch) but I also think that the average PGA gofler who misses a cut should be paid enough to cover travel and expenses with a bit on top to go in the bank just for making up the field.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			It is that last line that interests me. It is so definitive with a strong implication that nothing should ever change

Formats can change, pay and conditions can change, everything can change and evolve.

The PGA tour does one thing, LIV does another, no issue there, life is richer for variety. Now, if the members of the PGA Tour start pushing for payment throughout the field then there may be an underlying issue that this has helped bring to the fore. If not, all good, as you were.

Never understood why one thing has to be right and another has to be wrong and why different theories and ideologies cannot work side by side. Personally, I think LIV is paying too much for finishing last (but then again you have to when trying to start from scratch) but I also think that the average PGA gofler who misses a cut should be paid enough to cover travel and expenses with a bit on top to go in the bank just for making up the field.
		
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They can change - hence why they brought in things like the WGC , Fed Ex , RTD all events where people are rewarded for Qualfying 

There are always lots of talk about golfers being self employed and independent contractors but then people want To be given expenses by the Tour ?

Do any other self employed workers get expenses or do they get paid when they do a good job ? 

At the end of the day it’s a choice for the pro golfer - they can seek employment and a guaranteed wage with a golf club or golf body etc

Or they can employ themselves and look to earn their earnings by competing


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil* 🤔

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him
		
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Not disputing your figure, I trust you got it from a reliable source. Where can I find such accurate figures?

When I google his career earnings, I can only find a career total of $1,344,228 for him, an average of $134,423 per year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not disputing your figure, I trust you got it from a reliable source. Where can I find such accurate figures?

When I google his career earnings, I can only find a career total of $1,344,228 for him, an average of $134,423 per year.
		
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That’s his PGA tour earnings 

https://www.europeantour.com/players/scott-hend-31288/career-record

He has earned €5mil on the ET as well

Plus his earnings on the Asian Tour where he earned $1mil alone in one year


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## Springveldt (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?
		
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Clearly Scott Hend just needs to “git gud”. Imagine expecting to get paid when you are only the 500th best golfer on a planet of 8 billion people. Only the top 70 should be getting paid, the rest shouldn’t even have bothered turning up. /s 

Imagine having to rely on sponsorship to see you through a rough patch since the organisation you are providing income for don’t think you are worth it. Sounds a bit like the sevice industry in the US that need tips to get by.


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They can change - hence why they brought in things like the WGC , Fed Ex , RTD all events where people are rewarded for Qualfying

There are always lots of talk about golfers being self employed and independent contractors but then people want To be given expenses by the Tour ?

Do any other self employed workers get expenses or do they get paid when they do a good job ?

At the end of the day it’s a choice for the pro golfer - they can seek employment and a guaranteed wage with a golf club or golf body etc

Or they can employ themselves and look to earn their earnings by competing
		
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Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position. 

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?
		
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You cannot compare the two sports. If Scott isn’t good enough to earn a living he should go do something else. Or are we now giving out participation medals for professionals?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position.

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.
		
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Yep I was contractor for 4 years and didn’t get a penny in expenses but the contract was well paid for doing the job but I went to employed with them for extra benefits

If the PGA or indeed any of the other tours want to pay everyone then it will be the players that decide that and make the change and it will affect the prize money etc


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			You cannot compare the two sports. If Scott isn’t good enough to earn a living he should go do something else. Or are we now giving out participation medals for professionals?
		
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So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?
		
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That’s not what I said is it?

As you like a football comparison. Why hasn’t every level of football under League 2 collapsed?


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position.

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.
		
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So your wife's contract didn't say that is she did the best job of the week, she got a million dollars, second best half a million and so on, and if she was below average, nothing? Wow.

Did she also get pension contributions based on the number of such week's work she did? No, me neither and I am contractor too. I make my own contributions. PGA Tour players have pension pots based on the number of cuts and prize money earned. 

So not really the same at all.

Silly to suggest that not thinking that the LIV Tour is a refreshing evolution in golf means that anyone wants to see total stasis in the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour has evolved plenty over the years, and has done so in response to the LIV Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil 🤔

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him
		
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And how much of that has he spent supporting his career. A tube driver in London will earn about 3 million in his career - just to put Scott's earnings into perspective.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			That’s not what I said is it?

As you like a football comparison. Why hasn’t every level of football under League 2 collapsed?
		
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So you want them to get paid even less in comparison to the top players then, like football?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Clearly Scott Hend just needs to “git gud”. Imagine expecting to get paid when you are only the 500th best golfer on a planet of 8 billion people. Only the top 70 should be getting paid, the rest shouldn’t even have bothered turning up. /s

Imagine having to rely on sponsorship to see you through a rough patch since the organisation you are providing income for don’t think you are worth it. Sounds a bit like the sevice industry in the US that need tips to get by.
		
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So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?



Mel Smooth said:



			So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?
		
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The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should 

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?



The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?
		
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Never said he was struggling, I was pointing out that he'd spent 50 grand earlier this year to attend events, and not got a cent back. The 5 million is a gross figure, it will be taxable, and will incur huge outgoings. 
I doubt he's set for life, let's put it that way.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you want them to get paid even less in comparison to the top players then, like football?
		
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Again, where did I say that?


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## JamesR (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Good for Jediah Morgan, he's one of the lucky one's that got an opportunity when the LIV was starting out, there are plenty more like him, but he still contributed to the event at Centurion, he was part of the 48 man field that turned out for 3 days, and he quite rightly got paid for it.
		
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He isn't the target of LIV though is he? He's stop gap.
LIV wants the top players. So what happens to Morgan when he gets booted out for the big boys?
He goes back to the Australasian Tour, having to make cuts to get paid.
So you can't pretend LIV was set up for the betterment of the lesser players.


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## rksquire (Jul 8, 2022)

Some of the things that are getting 'debated' are eye opening.... even being anti-LIV or pro-LIV or anywhere in between doesn't mean there can't be agreement around certain things that in the modern age seems antiquated.  

Better conditions and treatment of caddies at Tournaments - only a good thing.  It's not about how poorly they've been treated by the PGA Tour or where the money has come from to treat them better at LIV; it's about the fact they are finally in he conversation about how they should be treated better.  

Financial reward for players missing the cut (or coming last) - just because you know the 'risks' doesn't make it right; there's enough money in the game to, at the very least, ensure an average weekly living wage for those that make the cut.  Qualified from Q school?  Congratulations - but you still to make the step up, finance yourself and make the cut enough times to not only keep your card but to pay all your living expenses.  And you have other people depending on you etc.  But even so, we expect you to come at your own expense and make up the numbers for the first 2 days so we can benefit from your presence.  There's been enough cinderella stories to know that some professional golfers struggle to pay bills and need to borrow money to stay on the road.  It shouldn't be hard either..... at the John Deere Classic the 'last' placed 69 got $15k or so; winner got $1.278m.  In order to give the 80 or so cut participants $3,500* each, you'd need to take $280k away from the total receiving prize money or reduce everyone's purse (who got one) by just less than 4%.  So the winnder gets $1.227m instead of $1.278m; 69th gets $14.4k instead of $15k.  The 80 who missed the cut get $3.5k each - not enough to phone it in, but enough to at least survive.  And if things are so tight for the not for profit organisation you can limit your liability - if at any point you earn in excess of $70,000 in the year you then no longer need the living wage payment.

Basically - there has to be some 'good' things we don't have to disagree on!

*arbitrary figure based on a minimum of 20 events to earn the living annual wage in USA (20 x $3.5k = $70k)


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Never said he was struggling, I was pointing out that he'd spent 50 grand earlier this year to attend events, and not got a cent back. The 5 million is a gross figure, it will be taxable, and will incur huge outgoings.
I doubt he's set for life, let's put it that way.
		
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Youy compared Hend to tube drivers earlier,  I doubt whether any tube driver gets paid merely for wearing the uniform.  This whole argument that LIV is good because it pays all players regardless of performance is just a nonsence.  They are paying just 48 players,  yes 48.  The Euro Pro tour pays at least 60 per tournament from a prize pot of £50,000.  There are tens of thousands of pro golfers around the world competeing for similar amounts,  LIV have zero interest on those players and have no pr0posals to grow the game from the bottom up.

Additionally I don't hear any of the top players that LIV are trying to attract saying "lets take a small pay cut so those struggling at the bottom can be paid more",  quiet the opposite in fact.


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So your wife's contract didn't say that is she did the best job of the week, she got a million dollars, second best half a million and so on, and if she was below average, nothing? Wow.

Did she also get pension contributions based on the number of such week's work she did? No, me neither and I am contractor too. I make my own contributions. PGA Tour players have pension pots based on the number of cuts and prize money earned.

So not really the same at all.

Silly to suggest that not thinking that the LIV Tour is a refreshing evolution in golf means that anyone wants to see total stasis in the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour has evolved plenty over the years, and has done so in response to the LIV Tour.
		
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Aside from the really unnecessary tone, those are fair points. The original point was made about expensese and accomodation and that is, I am sure, covered in your contracts as well. I totally agree, any other comparision between a professional golfer and a health and safety contractor is irrelevant. 

In fairness, I did not start the comparison to being contractors, I just followed the analogy and the points put across on that basis. That said, my wife would not have entered into a contract that could result in no payment at the end of it. 

Fair point on the pension but, again, it leaves the bottom with nothing. They have contributed to the event but do not get contributions towards the pension if they do not perform. 

The analogy is irrelevant, I believe that those lower down the order should get a slice of the pie the same as anyone else. As I said earlier, I think LIV rewards them too much but I do think that they should be entitled to something to cover expeinses and living costs. As I have said before, I do not support LIV, I do not support the PGA, I believe that  huge amount around golf at all levels needs tearing down and evolving but I also know that will never happen.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?*

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?



The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?
		
Click to expand...

Although he may not be struggling, it is probably important to put things in context. It is not the same as you or I earning £5 million over the same period, and getting to enjoy the fruits of that money.

He is effectively his own business. After taxes are taken out of the equation, he'll need to cover costs for coaches, trainers, physios, travel, accommodation, caddies and whatever else he needs to cover. He is not a "top" player, so I'm sure he will naturally pay significantly less expenses that someone like Tiger, Rory or Bryson would pay. However, he'll want to invest well in all these sorts of services to give himself the best possible chance to stay in the tour.

It would be interesting to know the expenses of an elite level pro, a jorneyman pro (in the top tour) and a pro who yoyos back and forth between the top and lower level tours.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 8, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Some of the things that are getting 'debated' are eye opening.... even being anti-LIV or pro-LIV or anywhere in between doesn't mean there can't be agreement around certain things that in the modern age seems antiquated. 

Better conditions and treatment of caddies at Tournaments - only a good thing.  It's not about how poorly they've been treated by the PGA Tour or where the money has come from to treat them better at LIV; it's about the fact they are finally in he conversation about how they should be treated better. 

Financial reward for players missing the cut (or coming last) - just because you know the 'risks' doesn't make it right; there's enough money in the game to, at the very least, ensure an average weekly living wage for those that make the cut.  Qualified from Q school?  Congratulations - but you still to make the step up, finance yourself and make the cut enough times to not only keep your card but to pay all your living expenses.  And you have other people depending on you etc.  But even so, we expect you to come at your own expense and make up the numbers for the first 2 days so we can benefit from your presence.  There's been enough cinderella stories to know that some professional golfers struggle to pay bills and need to borrow money to stay on the road.  It shouldn't be hard either..... at the John Deere Classic the 'last' placed 69 got $15k or so; winner got $1.278m.  In order to give the 80 or so cut participants $3,500* each, you'd need to take $280k away from the total receiving prize money or reduce everyone's purse (who got one) by just less than 4%.  So the winnder gets $1.227m instead of $1.278m; 69th gets $14.4k instead of $15k.  The 80 who missed the cut get $3.5k each - not enough to phone it in, but enough to at least survive.  And if things are so tight for the not for profit organisation you can limit your liability - if at any point you earn in excess of $70,000 in the year you then no longer need the living wage payment.

Basically - there has to be some 'good' things we don't have to disagree on!

*arbitrary figure based on a minimum of 20 events to earn the living annual wage in USA (20 x $3.5k = $70k)
		
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You are right it would be a good thing,  but lets not pretend this is any reason LIV have moved into professional golf.  The oppsite is actually true,  they want to pay the very best players the greatest of rewards and have no thoughts for those below the top 48.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

JamesR said:



			He isn't the target of LIV though is he? He's stop gap.
LIV wants the top players. So what happens to Morgan when he gets booted out for the big boys?
He goes back to the Australasian Tour, having to make cuts to get paid.
So you can't pretend LIV was set up for the betterment of the lesser players.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not pretending anything, I said he dropped lucky - and he quite rightly took that chance.These guys will know full well they will have limited opportunities on the LIV series, but if they are given  chance, have the right to take it.

What the LIV tour will do, is take the game across the continents, which in turn will lead to more interest and investment in those countries.


----------



## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			You are right it would be a good thing,  but lets not pretend this is any reason LIV have moved into professional golf.  The oppsite is actually true,  they want to pay the very best players the greatest of rewards and have no thoughts for those below the top 48.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree and very fari point but this may trigger the need for other tours to adopt these things and so, whether you see LIV as good, bad or are indifferent, it may trigger improvements elsewhere by removing complacency brought about by lack of competition.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?


----------



## JamesR (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?
		
Click to expand...

Tiger did


----------



## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm not pretending anything, I said he dropped lucky - and he quite rightly took that chance.These guys will know full well they will have limited opportunities on the LIV series, but if they are given  chance, have the right to take it.

What the LIV tour will do, is take the game across the continents, which in turn will lead to more interest and investment in those countries.
		
Click to expand...

You must be getting pretty dizzy generating all this spin!


----------



## Bdill93 (Jul 8, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Tiger did
		
Click to expand...

But hes the biggest name in golf for years. He has the earnings over time etc.

Now some guys who have been on tour for a few years can do the same.. I dont see that as bad!


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into* grass roots* sport.
...
		
Click to expand...

So he's buying a farm? Or golf course?


Mel Smooth said:



			...
Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?
		
Click to expand...

Actually....Yes!


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## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?
		
Click to expand...

We'll see when it starts. It will likely be done in a very tax-friendly way that costs him a lot less than the reported value. 

The idea that BdC made this move with any intention other than to fill his own boots, though, is laughable.


----------



## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			We'll see when it starts. It will likely be done in a very tax-friendly way that costs him a lot less than the reported value.

The idea that BdC made this move with any intention other than to fill his own boots, though, is laughable.
		
Click to expand...

Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.


----------



## doublebogey7 (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Totally agree and very fari point but this may trigger the need for other tours to adopt these things and so, whether you see LIV as good, bad or are indifferent, it may trigger improvements elsewhere by removing complacency brought about by lack of competition.
		
Click to expand...

There is no lack of faIr competition there are plenty of tours around the world players can play on,  most will play on the the one that gives the greatest reward. LIV though is simply not fair competition
Please explain how you think other tours might improve pay at the lower end when the new competition is doing precisely the opposite.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.
		
Click to expand...


So just spin - yet again!


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## JamesR (Jul 8, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But hes the biggest name in golf for years. He has the earnings over time etc.

Now some guys who have been on tour for a few years can do the same.. I dont see that as bad!
		
Click to expand...

However, when Tiger started out the prize funds were nowhere near what they are today.
He was winning a matter of a few hundred grand in his earliest days. Now it's a minimum million for a win of any PGA tour event..
So the earning power of the current top lot is potentially much higher, thanks to Tiger.


----------



## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			There is no lack of faIr competition there are plenty of tours around the world players can play on,  most will play on the the one that gives the greatest reward. LIV though is simply not fair competition
Please explain how you think other tours might improve pay at the lower end when the new competition is doing precisely the opposite.
		
Click to expand...

Spread the prize pot across the entire entry. Have a set amount payable to everyone below the cut line (though you could grade it on placing) then award the remainder to be divided amongst those who make the cut.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.
		
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I didn't say you did. What I was saying that the promised pumping back in will be done in a way that maximises the benefit to his financial interests. You may call that sensible, or it could be considered an investment in brand management.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 8, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Spread the prize pot across the entire entry. Have a set amount payable to everyone below the cut line (though you could grade it on placing) then award the remainder to be divided amongst those who make the cut.
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't what I asked,  so lets try again.  You said "LIV may trigger improvements".  LIV are trying to attract players at the top end not at the bottom.  So how would LIV be an encouragement to PGAT reducing rewards for the top players. It makes zero sense.


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			That wasn't what I asked,  so lets try again.  You said "LIV may trigger improvements".  LIV are trying to attract players at the top end not at the bottom.  So how would LIV be an encouragement to PGAT giving greater rewards for players at the lower ends.
		
Click to expand...

Because if LIV are paying the whole field, if LIV are gving better conditions then this may trigger other tours to offer similar. Change can be triggered by all sorts of things except one, the staunch continuation of the status quo. LIV could have no impact, it could make things worse, it could revolutionise everything, who knows (and in general terms, who really cares, it is golf, nothing more. Happy to agree with all of the sportswashing arguments and fully support how wrong that is but the more gneral postion on golf, tours etc. meh)

Perhaps be a little less patronising in your turn of phrase thoiugh, it makes for a far more pleasant debate.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			That wasn't what I asked,  so lets try again.  You said "LIV may trigger improvements". * LIV are trying to attract players at the top end* not at the bottom.  So how would LIV be an encouragement to PGAT reducing rewards for the top players. It makes zero sense.
		
Click to expand...

Well, they haven't been particularly successful if that's the case! 1 (DJ) barely in the top 20; 1 (BdC) around 30 and only a few others below or around 100. Most of those are 'on the decline' so happy to take a big retirement bung and play for fun - and loadsamoney (if it's real) occasionally!


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## pokerjoke (Jul 8, 2022)

Rory calling for the tours to start talking.
He certainly getting the FOMO
#notdoingitformoneythough


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## IainP (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			....They choose, within limits, where to play to optimise their chances of making good money, and if they play well, they get paid well. 

In the Portland LIV event, Jediah Morgan got paid $120,000 for finishing dead last with 3 rounds totalling +21, 34 shots behind the winner. I think he should be paying them.
		
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Am not on either 'side' of the debate, but in the interest of balance it looks like the player finishing dead last (excluding the withdrawals) in the St Jude 2021 was 29 shots behind the winner, and was paid $35,500.
Clearly not the same, but perhaps not that different either.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			Am not on either 'side' of the debate, but in the interest of balance it looks like the player finishing dead last (excluding the withdrawals) in the St Jude 2021 was 29 shots behind the winner, and was paid $35,500.
Clearly not the same, but perhaps not that different either.
		
Click to expand...

That was a FedEx playoff event, so all players had qualified through a season of events with halfway cuts. Jediah probably wouldn't have made it that far, but got 3 times as much.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 8, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Or are we now giving out participation medals for professionals?
		
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The LIV tour isn't a circus or an exhibition. It's a sports day at a special needs school. There are no losers and everyone gets a prize.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The LIV tour isn't a circus or an exhibition. It's a sports day at a special needs school. There are no losers and everyone gets a prize.
		
Click to expand...

Come on dude, that is a bad comment to make. Your out of order there.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

*Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?*

Click to expand...

Absolutely! At least he'd be expected to be able to. But maybe he's anticipating inability to perform well enough in the future.
Oh and I can't see the words 'a lot' or the specific amount going back...Simply one of at least 4 or5 areas he'll be putting the money.
He has said that he operates his golf as a business - and that he's 'broke' again! Do you have an actual figure? Or is it just your usual exaggeration/spin?


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## Baldy Bouncer (Jul 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The LIV tour isn't a circus or an exhibition. *It's a sports day at a special needs school.* There are no losers and everyone gets a prize.
		
Click to expand...



Superb!!! Take a bow Sir.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely! At least he'd be expected to be able to. But maybe he's anticipating inability to perform well enough in the future.
Oh and I can't see the words 'a lot' or the specific amount going back...Simply one of at least 4 or5 areas he'll be putting the money.
He has said that he operates his golf as a business - and that he's 'broke' again! Do you have an actual figure? Or is it just your usual exaggeration/spin?
		
Click to expand...

Ok ‘some’ of his money.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok ‘some’ of his money.
		
Click to expand...

Confirming 'your usual exaggeration/spin' then!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 8, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Confirming 'your usual exaggeration/spin' then! 

Click to expand...

No. Confirming that some of his 125 million has gone back into his grass roots and sports ventures.

It will still be a lot of money.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on dude, that is a bad comment to make. Your out of order there.
		
Click to expand...

Something we agree on


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No. Confirming that some of his 125 million has gone back into his grass roots and sports ventures.

It will still be a lot of money.
		
Click to expand...

I hope it will be!
But as you have no idea how much, it's back to spin and more spin! Normal service resumed!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on dude, that is a bad comment to make. Your out of order there.
		
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Making a joke about a sports day at a special needs school is bad in your view? But golfers accepting millions of dollars from a corrupt regime that murders journalists is ok? Thanks, but I think I'll stick with my moral compass.


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## BrianM (Jul 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Making a joke about a sports day at a special needs school is bad in your view? But golfers accepting millions of dollars from a corrupt regime that murders journalists is ok? Thanks, but I think I'll stick with my moral compass.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a poor comment, I’m surprised at it, comparing it to disabled school children competing is a new low for this forum.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil 🤔

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him
		
Click to expand...

Wait until he hears about what people get paid on minimum wage. 👀😱


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No. Confirming that some of his 125 million has gone back into his grass roots and sports ventures.

It will still be a lot of money.
		
Click to expand...

It's a handy tax dodge I'm sure.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			It's a handy tax dodge I'm sure.
		
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It's still money 'out of his pocket' and there'll no doubt be better 'tax-efficient' ways to invest the 'windfall'.
Any investment in Junior Golf is welcome.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545405165775339520
Pat Perez being ….. Pat Perez 

Surprised he didn’t have his dollar shirt on


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## IainP (Jul 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That was a FedEx playoff event, so all players had qualified through a season of events with halfway cuts. Jediah probably wouldn't have made it that far, but got 3 times as much.
		
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Just going to wander off piste for a bit - imagine when the Liv gang turned up wanting to hold an invitational tournament & the established tours said 'crack on, no restrictions'  - what does everyone think they would have done? 
I'm guessing invite the top 48 or so players, and fill any gaps with players from the top 100 or so.
Clearly the existing tours weren't going to do that, & I'm not surprised.
It may be the Liv gang conclude they've made a mistake and toddle off into the sunset. But if not, for now they are having to pursue other strategies which are unlikely to be their longer term goal. So I'd suggest a year from now would be the time to judge whatever they've done with regard to field strength etc. Plenty of speculation above of course.

Coming back to the St Jude, although it had Fed Ex involvement it wasn't actually a play off event, it was WGC-FedEx St. Jude Invitational.
Here are the invite guidelines:
 - Ranked in the top-50 golfers in the world. 
- Winning a tournament with an Official World Golf Rankings strength-of-field rating of 115 or higher.
- Then golfers outside the top 50 in ranking order

Almost looks like a template 😲

Anyway, I've no actual idea what their plans are, and no crystal ball to claim I know how it will pan out. If they did pack up I wouldn't be bothered. Just adding my 2 pence into the debate....


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## PieMan (Jul 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545405165775339520
Pat Perez being ….. Pat Perez

Surprised he didn’t have his dollar shirt on
		
Click to expand...

I wish I could celebrate an 80 and finishing about 19 shots behind the winner like that!!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545405165775339520
Pat Perez being ….. Pat Perez

Surprised he didn’t have his dollar shirt on
		
Click to expand...

It's awesome isn't it.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Wonder what Scott Hend would rather be travelling in ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545496788483936258


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

https://progolfweekly.com/trash-tal...t-a-single-liv-golfer-misses-cut-in-scotland/


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Making a joke about a sports day at a special needs school is bad in your view? But golfers accepting millions of dollars from a corrupt regime that murders journalists is ok? Thanks, but I think I'll stick with my moral compass.
		
Click to expand...

Not one person on here thinks that murdering in journalists is Ok. Myself included - that's why I wouldn't attempt to make a realy bad joke about it.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

PieMan said:



			I wish I could celebrate an 80 and finishing about 19 shots behind the winner like that!! 

Click to expand...

Awesome innit!
I remember equivalent types from 'back home' decades ago. Large and loud to 'stand out from the crowd' - at least in their own minds. Dressed in loud mismatched jacket and trousers - e.g. one Tartan; the other stripes - to do the same. And with no actual knowledge of anything other than 'the American way' that they've been indoctrinated with.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Strong rumours on Hedeki Matsyuyama possibly switching over now - I suspect there's a decent offer on the table for him, high profile major winner in Asia, and would be a solid addition to the series.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2022)

PieMan said:



			I wish I could celebrate an 80 and finishing about 19 shots behind the winner like that!! 

Click to expand...

The joy of teams 😄.

Forget the players,  that plane 😍


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## Jimaroid (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not one person on here thinks that murdering in journalists is Ok. Myself included - that's why I wouldn't attempt to make a realy bad joke about it.
		
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No, instead of making jokes you continue to trumpet support of the organisation setup and funded by blood money.

The jokes showed better taste.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Strong rumours on Hedeki Matsyuyama possibly switching over now - I suspect there's a decent offer on the table for him, high profile major winner in Asia, and would be a solid addition to the series.
		
Click to expand...

That's bigger than solid. Top player and brings massive commercial interest from Japan. That would be a huge move, very smart.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			No, instead of making jokes you continue to trumpet support of the organisation setup and funded by blood money.

The jokes showed better taste.
		
Click to expand...

It's oil money mate.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's oil money mate.
		
Click to expand...

You’re free to continue to suck from that oily nipple as hard as you so clearly are. But don’t call me mate.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Strong rumours on Hedeki Matsyuyama possibly switching over now - I suspect there's a decent offer on the table for him, high profile major winner in Asia, and would be a solid addition to the series.
		
Click to expand...

Would be a good catch for LIV as a popular Asian and Major winner. Not the brightest when it comes to some aspects of golf though! https://www.golfchannel.com/news/hideki-matsuyama-disqualified-memorial-first-dq-his-career
Thanks for passing on this weeks LIV insider releases btw.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 9, 2022)

There’s no doubt in my mind the LIV and the PGA will come to some agreement within a year or 2
Then all the Hypocrites will have some of the Blood,Oil money as some put it.
I really look forward to all the U-turns and see how some on here change their tune.
It’s all BS as far as I’m concerned,money talks in most walks of life,wherever it comes from.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not one person on here thinks that murdering in journalists is Ok. Myself included - that's why I wouldn't attempt to make a realy bad joke about it.
		
Click to expand...

You might want to try reading what I wrote rather than what you thought I wrote. 

This is what I actually wrote....... "golfers accepting millions of dollars from a corrupt regime that murders journalists is ok?". There is no suggestion there that you, or anyone else, thinks murdering journalists is ok.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			They’re all *past it* _has beens_ aren’t they?
...
😂
		
Click to expand...

Are there any other sort?


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			There’s no doubt in my mind the LIV and the PGA will come to some agreement within a year or 2
Then all the Hypocrites will have some of the Blood,Oil money as some put it.
I really look forward to all the U-turns and see how some on here change their tune.
It’s all BS as far as I’m concerned,money talks in most walks of life,wherever it comes from.
		
Click to expand...

None of the sanctimonious ones buy fuel for their car. They spend Saturday mornings picketing their local petrol stations


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			You *might want to *try reading what I wrote rather than what you thought I wrote.
...
		
Click to expand...

I doubt it - even though he _should_!
Today is 'Teach English to Brits Day'!
Though Mel (Brooks) Smooth could well be providing 'Introduction to Arabic' courses later!


----------



## Ethan (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not one person on here thinks that murdering in journalists is Ok. Myself included - that's why I wouldn't attempt to make a realy bad joke about it.
		
Click to expand...

So you argue that golfers taking money from those who ordered the assassination which you deplore, amongst other human rights violations in no way helps sanitise the image of Saudi?

You can take their money with one hand and wave a finger of admonishment at them with the other hand?


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## evemccc (Jul 9, 2022)

This thread has got everything 😂


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			None of the sanctimonious ones buy fuel for their car. They spend Saturday mornings picketing their local petrol stations
		
Click to expand...

Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
Click to expand...

So indirect endorsement is ok?


----------



## AussieKB (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So indirect endorsement is ok?
		
Click to expand...

There is plenty indirect in ALL tours Men and Women plus transgender.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
Click to expand...

Ah opening the door for the hypocrites 
There’s no difference


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So indirect endorsement is ok?
		
Click to expand...

Indirect endorsement is unavoidable. Which makes the whole ‘what about petrol’ argument nonsense.  We all need to heat our homes & fuel our cars. 

Multi millionaire golfers don’t need to jump on the payroll of an medieval despotic regime. It’s not even a subtle difference


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## pokerjoke (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
Click to expand...

An example would be buying petrol or diesel that comes from Russia to fund their war that’s killed 1000s of innocent people.
That’s ok is it?


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Ah opening the door for the hypocrites
There’s no difference
		
Click to expand...

You don’t see it? How odd


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			An example would be buying petrol or diesel that comes from Russia to fund their war that’s killed 1000s of innocent people.
That’s ok is it?
		
Click to expand...

Do you know exactly where your petrol & gas come from?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Indirect endorsement is unavoidable. Which makes the whole ‘what about petrol’ argument nonsense.  We all need to heat our homes & fuel our cars.

Multi millionaire golfers don’t need to jump on the payroll of an medieval despotic regime. It’s not even a subtle difference
		
Click to expand...

Do the UK and US governments need to sell weapons to Saudi in multi billion dollar deals?


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			There is plenty indirect in ALL tours Men and Women plus transgender.
		
Click to expand...

There is, agreed. That ship has sailed for multiple reasons. Doesn’t excuse what is going on currently


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## sunshine (Jul 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But hes the biggest name in golf for years. He has the earnings over time etc.

Now some guys who have been on tour for a few years can do the same.. I dont see that as bad!
		
Click to expand...

The Tiger Woods foundation was started in 1996. 
People might be cynical about it but what that foundation has been able to do for some kids is amazing.


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do the UK and US governments need to sell weapons to Saudi in multi billion dollar deals?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, what’s happening in Yemen is abhorrent. Directly perpetrated by your mob. We (our govts) shouldn’t facilitate it. Sadly they are repeating the mistakes of the last 30 years and live in fear of the fundamentalist bogeyman


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## sunshine (Jul 9, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Youy compared Hend to tube drivers earlier, I doubt whether any tube driver gets paid merely for wearing the uniform.
		
Click to expand...

Well I think that is exactly what they get paid for. Jubilee line trains are automated I understand, just like the driverless DLR. I’m sure the same applies to all the newer trains.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Nope, *what’s happening in Yemen is abhorrent. Directly perpetrated by your mob.* We (our govts) shouldn’t facilitate it. Sadly they are repeating the mistakes of the last 30 years and live in fear of the fundamentalist bogeyman
		
Click to expand...

Oh, so I support the war in Yemen now do I, shame I wasn't around in the late 30's / early 40's, I could have been supportive of the holocaust as well. 

Some absoulte moronic bullshite getting posted on here .


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## Leftitshort (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Oh, so I support the war in Yemen now do I, shame I wasn't around in the late 30's / early 40's, I could have been supportive of the holocaust as well. 

Some absoulte moronic bullshite getting posted on here .
		
Click to expand...

Are you reading a different forum? You’ve been an apologist for the Saudis throughout this thread. Edit- you are correct, there is a difference between direct & indirect support as above. The subtlety seems to be lost on a few. However supporting the LIV tour can only be seen as direct support and therefore providing legitimacy


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## pokerjoke (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Do you know exactly where your petrol & gas come from?
		
Click to expand...

No haven’t got a clue
However I’m not slating Liv players on their morals like many others are.
Corruption,human rights is everywhere and as you point out hard to avoid.
Calling out players off the back of these is ridiculous as most of us have something to do with it directly or in- directly,imo they are the same.
It will all come together at some stage and all the hypocrites will be eating maples of humble pie.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Are you reading a different forum? You’ve been an apologist for the Saudis throughout this thread. Edit- you are correct, there is a difference between direct & indirect support as above. The subtlety seems to be lost on a few. However supporting the LIV tour can only be seen as direct support and therefore providing legitimacy
		
Click to expand...

Can you show me the posts where I've apologised for the Saudis.


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## AussieKB (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Do you know exactly where your petrol & gas come from?
		
Click to expand...

From the bowser....


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you show me the posts where I've apologised for the Saudis.
		
Click to expand...


From 'Dictionary'
Apologist:
a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
"critics said he was an *apologist for* colonialism"


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## Backsticks (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
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I dont think there is. If someone has a problem with Saudi Arabia, and criticises other for taking their oil money, then you shouldnt be giving your money to them for their oil. We are all dirty and complicity in the Saudi regime. But we take the bit that suits us - powering our cars and countries.

But, I think the oil money/morality, is incidental in all of this, and its unfortunate that it is muddying the water in what really is just a bit of business competition between two sports entertainment ventures. Matsuyama jumping would be another straw on the camel's back. Interesting to see what happens post Open when any distraction or concern about majors is then out to next April. Will more jump ? Will some stay until the end of this Autumns Fedex. I think it will be a messy 3 months, but should clarify after that. The best outcome at this stage is that the remaining top 20 make their conditions to the Saudi Arabians  as follows : we will all join you - but on condition that you playt normal golf, ditch the teams, ditch the shotgun, ditch 54 holes, increase the field size, and come to a deal with both PGAT and World Tour so that we can play some tourneys with them, national opens or whatever, and allow them to be a joint second division with some promotion/relegation to the Saudi Tour. For us spectators, then the world is back to normal.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2022)

evemccc said:



			This thread has got everything 😂
		
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Oh, its going to get worse. Rumours that LIV Golf have done a deal with a manufacturer of iron head covers and are going to issue them to every player.


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## Backsticks (Jul 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:




From 'Dictionary'
Apologist:
a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
"critics said he was an *apologist for* colonialism"
		
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One might say Mel is an apologist for the Saudi Tour though rather than Saudis as a people and undemocratic regime.
Though I am not sure which is worse - the Saudi Tour 'innovations' really are cack too.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:




From 'Dictionary'
Apologist:
a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.
"critics said he was an *apologist for* colonialism"
		
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Another completely pointless and worthless comment from you FH. 

Please stop feeling like you have to reply to every single post I make on here.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			One might say Mel is an apologist for the Saudi Tour though rather than Saudis as a people and undemocratic regime.
Though I am not sure which is worse - the Saudi Tour 'innovations' really are cack too.
		
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I'm a fan of the LIV series, doesn't mean I'm happy with the source of the funding.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think there is. If someone has a problem with Saudi Arabia, and criticises other for taking their oil money, then you shouldnt be giving your money to them for their oil. We are all dirty and complicity in the Saudi regime. But we take the bit that suits us - powering our cars and countries.

But, I think the oil money/morality, is incidental in all of this, and its unfortunate that it is muddying the water in what really is just a bit of business competition between two sports entertainment ventures. Matsuyama jumping would be another straw on the camel's back. Interesting to see what happens post Open when any distraction or concern about majors is then out to next April. Will more jump ? Will some stay until the end of this Autumns Fedex. I think it will be a messy 3 months, but should clarify after that. The best outcome at this stage is that the remaining top 20 make their conditions to the Saudi Arabians  as follows : we will all join you - but on condition that you playt normal golf, ditch the teams, ditch the shotgun, ditch 54 holes, increase the field size, and come to a deal with both PGAT and World Tour so that we can play some tourneys with them, national opens or whatever, and allow them to be a joint second division with some promotion/relegation to the Saudi Tour. For us spectators, then the world is back to normal.
		
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To me, it's different where it's 'government policy', so I have little control over it - except, perhaps, to protest against the government policy.
Like your Matsuyama analogy btw. 
And I agree...post The Open, there will be plenty of speculation/activity.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think there is. If someone has a problem with Saudi Arabia, and criticises other for taking their oil money, then you shouldnt be giving your money to them for their oil. We are all dirty and complicity in the Saudi regime. But we take the bit that suits us - powering our cars and countries.

But, I think the oil money/morality, is incidental in all of this, and its unfortunate that it is muddying the water in what really is just a bit of business competition between two sports entertainment ventures. Matsuyama jumping would be another straw on the camel's back. Interesting to see what happens post Open when any distraction or concern about majors is then out to next April. Will more jump ? Will some stay until the end of this Autumns Fedex. I think it will be a messy 3 months, but should clarify after that. The best outcome at this stage is that the remaining top 20 make their conditions to the Saudi Arabians  as follows : we will all join you - but on condition that you playt normal golf, ditch the teams, ditch the shotgun, ditch 54 holes, increase the field size, and come to a deal with both PGAT and World Tour so that we can play some tourneys with them, national opens or whatever, and allow them to be a joint second division with some promotion/relegation to the Saudi Tour. For us spectators, then the world is back to normal.
		
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It is all on a spectrum.

Every person with a private pension fund probably has investments in arms, dodgy companies, Saudi, Russia, tobacco, etc.

The spectrum runs from stuff like that which is kinda hidden like the pension funds, through more explicit relationships to outright open and brazen willingness to knowingly take money directly from the Saudi Royal Family, widely believed to be directly responsible for ordering Khashoggi's assassination, to assist a strategy to launder the Saudi reputation. Same would apply if Putin funded a Tour run out of Belarus. LIV Golf lives pretty near that extreme end.

Sponsorship of an LET event by Aramco is not that far off, but not quite so explicit. Players have a choice whether they take part or not. That choice is a bit more constrained for the LET than it would be on the longer schedule of the DPWT.

Buying petrol or diesel or heating your home with fuel which may have origins in Saudi or Russia is a long way away, and you may have no choice.

Players are entitled to do what they want, but at least they should be honest about it. DJ has basically said he is doing it for the money and reduced schedule, simple as that. That is honest at least. Poulter and others were told plainly they would be kicked off the other Tours. They went into LIV Golf with their eyes open but are now whining about it. I have zero sympathy for them and I hope their ongoing legal action fails. Getting into the Scottish was a short term holding position. Even shorter than he expected for Putter, T138, +10, missed cut by a mile. The legal case is far from settled.


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## Backsticks (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm a fan of the LIV series
		
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Thats the bit that doesnt compute with any of the world that is not on the Saudi payroll. 

From a pure sporting point of view, and from a sports as entertainment point of view, even allowing for the possibility that the current low quality field of fundamentally has-beens and true unknowns might improve in time, its 'innovations' are simply nonsense gimmicks. This is my objection to it, and that of most observers. Some add in the Saudi/human rights element of top of that as a double whammy. So it offers nothing. If it hoovers up all the worlds best, and I grant that is quite possible to happen, then it will be the best/only game in town. But still a lesser game the the PGAT as it has been.


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Indirect endorsement is unavoidable. Which makes the whole ‘what about petrol’ argument nonsense.  We all need to heat our homes & fuel our cars. 

Multi millionaire golfers don’t need to jump on the payroll of an medieval despotic regime. It’s not even a subtle difference
		
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It’s not unavoidable, you make your own choice.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm a fan of the LIV series, doesn't mean I'm happy with the source of the funding.
		
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OK, interesting. Lets split the discussion in two, and park the Saudi money.

What differentiators between LIV and PGA do you like? 54 holes, no cut, shotgun, teams .....


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Another completely pointless and worthless comment from you FH.

Please stop feeling like you have to reply to every single post I make on here.
		
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Just doing my bit to improve the use of the English language!


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just doing my bit to improve the use of the English language! 

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Foxy
Take 5 please, you’re not adding to the debate, just causing friction…….again


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## D-S (Jul 9, 2022)

Looks like the R and A have made their view public.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545732625276485635


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
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Leftitshort said:



			Of course they don’t, but there is a massive difference between direct and indirect endorsement
		
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Ah, the excuse of the entitled… if you’re happy with that, crack on. Do you realise how shallow your argument reads? I accept I need petrol, or in reality the globalisation that the whole package brings, e.g. the materials in the clothes you wear and the grips on your clubs.

Fine, just accept that the computer says “yes” but don’t hide behind “indirect.” It just makes you look like a mercenary.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats the bit that doesnt compute with any of the world that is not on the Saudi payroll.

From a pure sporting point of view, and from a sports as entertainment point of view, even allowing for the possibility that the current low quality field of fundamentally has-beens and true unknowns might improve in time, its 'innovations' are simply nonsense gimmicks. This is my objection to it, and that of most observers. Some add in the Saudi/human rights element of top of that as a double whammy. So it offers nothing. If it hoovers up all the worlds best, and I grant that is quite possible to happen, then it will be the best/only game in town. But still a lesser game the the PGAT as it has been.
		
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Low quality field? How many decry the Senior‘s Tour?  There’s some very shallow arguments on here, and yours is one of them.

Is the ET top class? Does it rank up against the Liv?

I genuinely don’t care either way but some of the shallow, pathetic, hypocritical arguments are hilarious. The PGA Tour has bullied the other tours, including forcing date changes on them since the mists of time.

I don’t want the PGA Tour to fail, not that it will, but I’d love to see its power diminished. I’d love to see the ET tour grow, and a (guarded) alliance might help. Beyond that, there’s so much business done with Saudi, in so many spheres, the pathetic arguments on here are puerile.


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## Backsticks (Jul 9, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Low quality field? How many decry the Senior‘s Tour?  There’s some very shallow arguments on here, and yours is one of them.
		
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No one decrys the Seniors tour, because it is clearly a lower league. If LIV saw that as its market, the  it would be fine. But it wants the worlds best, no compromises, and by that meadure the field is has beens, and unlnowns in the majority. That is a fact, not a shallow argument.


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## Backsticks (Jul 9, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Is the ET top class? Does it rank up against the Liv?
		
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It doesnt, and I have never claimed it does. Rather, I have stated several times, it is a second division to the PGAT.  But again, second division is not the Saudi target. The PGAT, and its prime players, are.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

The LIV series will get a significant amount of the worlds best players before the end of the year. Once The Open is gone, there'll be quite a few wanting to get in while they have the chance. 
Give it a few years, and it will be similar to The Champions League in football, money talks.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It doesnt, and I have never claimed it does. Rather, I have stated several times, it is a second division to the PGAT.  But again, second division is not the Saudi target. The PGAT, and its prime players, are.
		
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To me, it's about the same quality currently - maybe a little lower. The current OWGR rankings indicate DPWT (if Rory is included) of the top players are higher for DPWT, but maybe not for further down. A lot more 'old (and faded?) stars' in LIV.
DPWT has always been distinctly 2ndry to TPGAT.
LIV's 'battle' has always been with TPGAT. No different to last time Norman tried to take them on - with a remarkably similar format.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The LIV series will get a significant amount of the worlds best players before the end of the year. Once The Open is gone, there'll be quite a few wanting to get in while they have the chance.
Give it a few years, and it will be similar to The Champions League in football, money talks.
		
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Except Champions League has qualification. LIV doesn't - currently.
Ability to play in Majors is a better comparison, with maybe USA's MLS Soccer being a 'better, if still iffy' equivalent to LIV currently, but with greater potential for growth.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Except Champions League has qualification. LIV doesn't - currently.
Ability to play in Majors is a better comparison, with maybe USA's MLS Soccer being a 'better, if still iffy' equivalent to LIV.
		
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LIV will be comparatively far bigger than MLS, it already has a widespread global appeal that the MLS doesn't, and will never have.


Do they need qualification? Well, if it becomes accepted that good results and finishing positions on the other tours may result in an invite to LIV, then possibly not. 

There will always be some players who will refuse to play on the LIV series of course, but there will be plenty out there now who will be hoping to get a shot - certainly enough to massively disrupt the position of the PGA Tour as the No 1 tour.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV will be comparatively far bigger than MLS, it already has a widespread global appeal that the MLS doesn't, and will never have.
...
		
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Agreed-ish. I did state 'better, if still iffy' Tough to actually make comparisons between different sports as they have so many different setups. MLS did/does have some over-the-hill stars earning OTT amounts - perhaps less so these days than a while ago though.


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## woofers (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			It’s not unavoidable, you make your own choice.
		
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Disagree, I have yet to go to fuel (petrol / diesel) station which displays the country of origin on the pump of said fuel. So I don’t really have a choice.
Spare me the tears for Scott Hend or any pro golfer, they have made a choice to be a pro golfer, if they don’t like it or it’s getting tough, do something else !


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

woofers said:



			Disagree, I have yet to go to fuel (petrol / diesel) station which displays the country of origin on the pump of said fuel. So I don’t really have a choice.
Spare me the tears for Scott Hend or any pro golfer, they have made a choice to be a pro golfer, if they don’t like it or it’s getting tough, do something else !
		
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Disagree all you like, if you really want to find out you can, just like all your everyday products you buy that are made using oil.
Ignorance isn’t an excuse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2022)

sorry I thought we didn’t import that much oil from Saudi 🤷‍♂️

https://www.goodto.com/money/where-does-uk-get-oil-gas-654919

can’t understand that argument or trying to compare golfers taking money directly from the Saudi state to people filling their car up 🤷‍♂️


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Disagree all you like, if you really want to find out you can, just like all your everyday products you buy that are made using oil.
Ignorance isn’t an excuse.
		
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Amazing all these intelligent people who plead ignorance. They know exactly what so many products are made from.

But doesn’t that just narrow the argument? Let’s have a look at the US’s gun laws, or their protectionist trading. Granted their human rights laws are more enlightened, though maybe not in application.

I just find all the faux rage so amusing… glass houses and stones spring to mind.


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry I thought we didn’t import that much oil from Saudi 🤷‍♂️

https://www.goodto.com/money/where-does-uk-get-oil-gas-654919

can’t understand that argument or trying to compare golfers taking money directly from the Saudi state to people filling their car up 🤷‍♂️
		
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It’s clear you don’t understand the argument.

People always have a choice on what products they buy and where from if they are really that morally concerned.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			It’s clear you don’t understand the argument.

People always have a choice on what products they buy and where from if they are really that morally concerned.
		
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Can you confirm how I can choose which petrol I can have ? When I got to Morrisons or Tescos it doesn’t seem to ensure that I’m not getting petrol that’s been imported from Saudi Arabia 🤷‍♂️


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you confirm how I can choose which petrol I can have ? When I got to Morrisons or Tescos it doesn’t seem to ensure that I’m not getting petrol that’s been imported from Saudi Arabia 🤷‍♂️
		
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It’s not just fuel though, there is 100’s of products that are made using oil, if you really really want to know where products come from you can find out.

Would you buy products from China knowing about there atrocious record on child labour.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is accepting millions from arms sales ? When did I have the choice on the government selling arms

Start a thread about selling arms and I’ll decry it , I can’t recall ever being happy about it

This thread is about golfers and golfers accepting money from a horrific regime
		
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Your last point is the whole point though Phil
People excepting money from a horrific regime,then on the other hand spending money on everyday things from similar regimes.
However some argue because they believe there morals are above others when clearly they are not,but will argue the toss because they want to try and come across as whiter than white.
Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.
Also stating some players will never do that is narrow minded.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Disagree all you like, if you really want to find out you can, just like all your everyday products you buy that are made using oil.
Ignorance isn’t an excuse.
		
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These are the latest figures I can find for Oil imports. I'm sure I've seen some later ones, so if anyone can produce more recent ones, I'm happy to accept the more recent ones. As someone 'in the industry' you may have more recent numbers. https://www.statista.com/statistics...import-origin-countries-to-united-kingdom-uk/
Certainly most comes from Norway and these figures don't show how the Russian contribution was covered. I don't believe Johnson's expedition to Saudi achieved any increase in their contribution, so still minimal.
As I posted earlier, as I have little to no control about where the government imports the source of the petrol I buy, any issues I have with their sources, I direct at the government, not at the end supplier. Not the same as the likes of Nike's labour issues though.


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...s-to-players-competing-in-saudi-international

Older now, but it was ok for some back then, also Rory saying they are independent contractors.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

BrianM said:



https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...s-to-players-competing-in-saudi-international

Older now, but it was ok for some back then, also Rory saying they are independent contractors.
		
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So they are happy to give releases to players in a non-competing/associate/feeder tour, but not for a tournament in a tour that's an 'existential threat' to them. Sounds ok to me!
And as far as I know 'independent contractors' is exactly what they are. But, as such, they will have a contract that will specify such things as how they go about requesting releases. it's that area that's likely to be tested in court if it comes to that. And, in the case of DPWT, the sanctions available to 'the Tour' if those rules are not complied with.


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## BrianM (Jul 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So they are happy to give releases to players in a non-competing/associate/feeder tour, but not for a tournament in a tour that's an 'existential threat' to them. Sounds ok to me!
And as far as I know 'independent contractors' is exactly what they are. But, as such, they will have a contract that will specify such things as how they go about requesting releases. it's that area that's likely to be tested in court if it comes to that. And, in the case of DPWT, the sanctions available to 'the Tour' if those rules are not complied with.
		
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I know that, but surely the players that played forgot about all there morals to play that tournament.

https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/a...national-powered-softbank-investment-advisers


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 9, 2022)

Going to close the thread for a while so everyone can go have a nice cup of tea and calm down a bit


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2022)

Thread reopened, but play nice or it will be closed permanently and that would be a shame as it is a huge talking point.


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## D-S (Jul 10, 2022)

And they’re off….
https://images.app.goo.gl/ifhLbWXsLYz4Ltec6


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## Jimaroid (Jul 10, 2022)

Why was my post deleted?


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## Leftitshort (Jul 10, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Why was my post deleted?
		
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Loads have been. Even the most rational. This thread doesn’t make sense now. It’s just a series of statements without any right to reply. Interesting that the original (semi) inflammatory posts are left, but subsequent, considered replies are deleted.
post 3626 sums it up for me. No need to add anything else


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2022)

I’ve cleaned it up as best I can

Posts which quoted deleted posts have been deleted too. Otherwise they don’t make sense.

If that’s yours and you want to repeat your point, feel free, but having a go at me really isn’t the best way forward in this thread 👍


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 10, 2022)

So the relevant story yesterday was Norman not getting invited to the Champions dinner, can see why the R&A have done it, but sadly, it's just going to create more hyperbole around The Open. 

Another bad decision that just splits golf further.


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2022)

So let him come and every other word is about LIV and not The Open...the 150th Open
It's the same principle the R&A took with Turnberry and Trump.
They won't get The Open while Trump owns it because they know damn well he'll turn up and take over, making the event more about him than anything else.
Same goes for Norman.
The R&A want this to be all about The Open and nothing else.
Better to have a few complaints than turn the 150th Open into an advertisement for Greg Norman and his band...
At least Mickelson had the guts to ask not to be invited..he may be an arse but at least he gets it....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So the relevant story yesterday was Norman not getting invited to the Champions dinner, can see why the R&A have done it, but sadly, it's just going to create more hyperbole around The Open.

Another bad decision that just splits golf further.
		
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Greg Norman is being paid a fortune to promote LIV golf - there is no doubt that he would have used the greatest golf comp as a vehicle to promote LiV golf so the R&A have done what they need to do to protect The Open by removing him from The Open - he already asked for an exemption to be able to play 

Greg Norman is all about Greg Norman - this week should only be about The Open


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So let him come and every other word is about LIV and not The Open...the 150th Open
It's the same principle the R&A took with Turnberry and Trump.
They won't get The Open while Trump owns it because they know damn well he'll turn up and take over, making the event more about him than anything else.
Same goes for Norman.
The R&A want this to be all about The Open and nothing else.
Better to have a few complaints than turn the 150th Open into an advertisement for Greg Norman and his band...
At least Mickelson had the guts to ask not to be invited..he may be an arse but at least he gets it....
		
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As I say, I understand why they've done it, but they've created a contentious talking point which will now be carried forward by the media and be discussed all week.
He's  won it twice, he's a past champion, and should be invited. Would he have made it all about himself and LIV? That's down to the media, the R&A could have requested that he wasn't given the air time, instead, they've made it quite clear he's not welcome - and created headlines.

Other than a few cheeky tweets and comments on social media, Norman hasn't been saying an awful lot or been interviewed by any of the major media providers for quite a while has he?


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## Jimaroid (Jul 10, 2022)

The Open entry terms & conditions , section A. Paragraph 6.




			The R&A expects players and their team to conduct themselves in a manner that is respectful of The Open and the sport of golf. Players and their team shall at all times act in the best interests of the sport and The Open, and shall not conduct themselves in an unlawful or improper manner or so as to bring The Open, The R&A, the sport of golf or its governing bodies into disrepute ...
		
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If Norman is considered to be part of any player's team he doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are entitled to protect their brand however they see fit.


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2022)

All the creating has been done by Norman and LIV..without them there would be no contentious talking points..don't try and drop this on the R&A..
The week should be, and will be, all about celebrating 150 Opens...and nothing else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As I say, I understand why they've done it, but they've created a contentious talking point which will now be carried forward by the media and be discussed all week.
He's  won it twice, he's a past champion, and should be invited. Would he have made it all about himself and LIV? That's down to the media, the R&A could have requested that he wasn't given the air time, instead, they've made it quite clear he's not welcome - and created headlines.

Other than a few cheeky tweets and comments on social media, Norman hasn't been saying an awful lot or been interviewed by any of the major media providers for quite a while has he?
		
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The R&A haven’t created anything - Greg Norman has created it all

The only people that will want to discuss it will be the LIV’ers who will want to ensure that they are the main talking point.

You really do need to have a look at the other side at some stage


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2022)

There’s an echo in here 🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			All the creating has been done by Norman and LIV..without them there would be no contentious talking points..don't try and drop this on the R&A..
The week should be, and will be, all about celebrating 150 Opens...and nothing else.
		
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150 years since it was first played at St Andrews.
I think this is the 163rd Open.
I was a spectator at the 100th Open [played at St Andrews}


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The R&A haven’t created anything - Greg Norman has created it all

The only people that will want to discuss it will be the LIV’ers who will want to ensure that they are the main talking point.

*You really do need to have a look at the other side at some stage*

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That is why I said, I understand why they have done it.

Let's see how much LIV gets talked about this week in the MSM, I agree, it should all be about The Open, and part of that is having past champions at the champions dinner. By the time a few top players miss the cut on Friday, the press will be speculating about who is going to LIV. I might even dare to suggest that the winning golfer will be overshadowed on Monday in the press by further LIV "defectees".

Of course, it will all be Greg Normans fault.....


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That is why I said, I understand why they have done it.

Let's see how much LIV gets talked about this week in the MSM, I agree, it should all be about The Open, and part of that is having past champions at the champions dinner. By the time a few top players miss the cut on Friday, the press will be speculating about who is going to LIV. I might even dare to suggest that the winning golfer will be overshadowed on Monday in the press by further LIV "defectees".

Of course, it will all be Greg Normans fault.....
		
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Not all Greg Norman's fault. Greedy multimillionaire golfers who want more millions and don't care where that money comes from will also be to blame.


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2022)

Greg Norman is a massive egotist with a huge chip on his shoulder because he thinks he did not get enough respect from the PGA Tour. Most people would say that he got the resect he earned. He would inevitably and unavoidably showboat at St Andrews and distract from the 150th Open. The R&A is quite right to ban him from the event. 

If there is an announcement of further defectees of any note on Monday, it will just confirm that Norman has little respect for The Open.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Greg Norman is a massive egotist with a huge chip on his shoulder because he thinks he did not get enough respect from the PGA Tour. Most people would say that he got the resect he earned. He would inevitably and unavoidably showboat at St Andrews and distract from the 150th Open. The R&A is quite right to ban him from the event.

*If there is an announcement of further defectees of any note on Monday, it will just confirm that Norman has little respect for The Open*.
		
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On the Monday after The Open? 


I'd be fully epecting a few announcements tbh, not sure LIV or Norman have any obligation to hold back once the last major of the year has finished.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			On the Monday after The Open?


I'd be fully epecting a few announcements tbh, not sure LIV or Norman have any obligation to hold back once the last major of the year has finished.
		
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Whatever announcements that are made about players going to LIV will be done for when it’s maximum exposure and for the benefit of LIV - the rumours are already rumbling so I suspect an announcement at around Tuesday during the practice rounds


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			On the Monday after The Open?


I'd be fully epecting a few announcements tbh, not sure LIV or Norman have any obligation to hold back once the last major of the year has finished.
		
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Yes, indeed. You said it yourself, such announcements (depending how it was, another Pat Perez, not so much) could overshadow the winner of The Open. If you realise that, Greg Norman certainly does, and therefore if such announcements are made, it is entirely intended to have precisely that effect.

Of course, I would expect little else from a graceless jerk like Norman.


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## AussieKB (Jul 10, 2022)

So the R & A could not have talked to Greg and said we do not want any controversy, are you OK with that ?
Now a knee jerk reaction which just highlights LIV golf.

I honestly think that Greg would not have caused a fuss, but now when you disrespect him as a former two time champion (my view)
then if he comes out and criticizes them then what do you expect.


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So the R & A could not have talked to Greg and said we do not want any controversy, are you OK with that ?
Now a knee jerk reaction which just highlights LIV golf.

I honestly think that Greg would not have caused a fuss, but now when you disrespect him as a former two time champion (my view)
then if he comes out and criticizes them then what do you expect.
		
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So you reckon the media would not have asked questions, or Norman would have responded "We'll talk about that another time, fellas, this week is about The Open"? Dream on.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So the R & A could not have talked to Greg and said we do not want any controversy, are you OK with that ?
...
		
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That would not have prevented a controversy though - even if not originated by GN.


AussieKB said:



			...
I honestly think that Greg would not have caused a fuss, but now when you disrespect him as a former two time champion (my view)
then if he comes out and criticizes them then what do you expect.
		
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I'm sure that they explained it was not out of disrespect to him and I'm sure he understood and accepted that it's because it's about celebrating 150 years of The Open Championship, not what might be happening in Golf generally and currently. If not - and he _criticizes_ them (expressing disappointment is ok), then not inviting him was absolutely the right thing to do!


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## AussieKB (Jul 10, 2022)

I'm just thinking would I (ME) go and disrespect  a Tournament that I had won.....
I find it very hard to believe that he would.....you may disagree but no.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 10, 2022)

Norman can still do whatever he wants this week, if he wants to overshadow The Open, he can - and perhaps he's even more likely to do that in light of the decision from the R&A yesterday?


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Norman can still do whatever he wants this week, if he wants to overshadow The Open, he can - and perhaps he's even more likely to do that in light of the decision from the R&A yesterday?
		
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If he wants to show himself to be a classless churl, I am sure he will. 

On the other hand, he could issue a statement saying that he recognises that the R&A does not want distractions from the celebration of the 150th Open, and although he is sorry to miss it, he understands and wishes them well for the event.

The R&A is a player in OWGR and has yet to determine its long term plan for LIV player eligibility. Norman might be wise to play the long game.


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## AussieKB (Jul 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If he wants to show himself to be a classless churl, I am sure he will.

On the other hand, he could issue a statement saying that he recognises that the R&A does not want distractions from the celebration of the 150th Open, and although he is sorry to miss it, he understands and wishes them well for the event.

The R&A is a player in OWGR and has yet to determine its long term plan for LIV player eligibility. Norman might be wise to play the long game.
		
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And I am sure you would come out and say what a great person he is....ha ha


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## BrianM (Jul 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So let him come and every other word is about LIV and not The Open...the 150th Open
It's the same principle the R&A took with Turnberry and Trump.
They won't get The Open while Trump owns it because they know damn well he'll turn up and take over, making the event more about him than anything else.
Same goes for Norman.
The R&A want this to be all about The Open and nothing else.
Better to have a few complaints than turn the 150th Open into an advertisement for Greg Norman and his band...
At least Mickelson had the guts to ask not to be invited..he may be an arse but at least he gets it....
		
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This is spot on, I don’t think it’s right but the R and A have to do what’s right for themselves.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 10, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I'm just thinking would I (ME) go and disrespect  a Tournament that I had won.....
I find it very hard to believe that he would.....you may disagree but no.
		
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This is Greg Norman we are talking about here - prob has one of the biggest chips on his shoulder

There is a reason why he is perfect for the face of LIV Golf 

It wasn’t long ago that he was asking for special treatment from the R&A and he has always felt that the he didn’t get the plaudits he believe he deserved 



Mel Smooth said:



			Norman can still do whatever he wants this week, if he wants to overshadow The Open, he can - and perhaps he's even more likely to do that in light of the decision from the R&A yesterday?
		
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It’s a bit of a lose lose situation for him - if he keeps quiet through the whole week then the limelight is taken away from LIV but if he does try and make it about LIV then people will react negatively to that


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## woofers (Jul 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This is Greg Norman we are talking about here - prob has one of the biggest chips on his shoulder
		
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Hmmm, or well balanced with a chip on both shoulders…..😄😄


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Norman can still do whatever he wants this week, if he wants to overshadow The Open, he can - and perhaps he's even more likely to do that in light of the decision from the R&A yesterday?
		
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He would be wise to stay low key for the week and not actually upset the R&A who could still stymie some of his goals if they chose to. Simply saying nothing, or that 'it's their show' would be his best tactic imo.


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

I read all this anti LIV sentiment and I wonder if it was Bill Gates or Elon Musk backing it would we still have all this animosity going on, my belief is yes, the same anti LIV crowd would find a reason to be negative.

As for Greg not being invited, think R & A have made a mistake but they are entitled to invite whom they like, but go the whole hog and ban LIV players as well, I see a double standard here, but have been reading plenty of that lately.


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## Backsticks (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I read all this anti LIV sentiment and I wonder if it was Bill Gates or Elon Musk backing it would we still have all this animosity going on, my belief is yes, the same anti LIV crowd would find a reason to be negative.
		
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They wouldnt have to find a reason. The reasons are there, therefore they are negative, not the other way around.
Regardless of the source of the money backing the venture, it fails in its various sporting 'innovations', and by potentially cleaving the worlds best golfers into two groups. So nobody will be the best. That LIV is bad for elite professional golf as entertainment, is indisputable.


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They wouldnt have to find a reason. The reasons are there, therefore they are negative, not the other way around.
Regardless of the source of the money backing the venture, it fails in its various sporting 'innovations', and by potentially cleaving the worlds best golfers into two groups. So nobody will be the best. That LIV is bad for elite professional golf as entertainment, is indisputable.
		
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By that reasoning all the elite golfers should play where and when the PGA tells them to, how can that promote World golf if they only play where the PGA say? 
May as well get rid of the R & A as they only have one tournament and we may as well move the Open to the USA.


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## Backsticks (Jul 11, 2022)

I would go further, and observe that to a significant extent, the Saudi/moral issue which grabs the headlines, works as a smokescreen to how bad fundamentally are the purely golfing aspects of the venture.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They wouldnt have to find a reason. The reasons are there, therefore they are negative, not the other way around.
Regardless of the source of the money backing the venture, it fails in its various sporting 'innovations', and by potentially cleaving the worlds best golfers into two groups. So nobody will be the best. That LIV is bad for elite professional golf as entertainment, is indisputable.
		
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So you'd argue that it is in the best interests of the game to give the LIV players owgr points then? (There's a meeting this week I beleive).
At least that way, while they may be shut out of PGA Tour events, they could still be ranked and play in majors - this week for example we determie who is The Champion Golfer.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I read all this anti LIV sentiment and I wonder if it was Bill Gates or Elon Musk backing it would we still have all this animosity going on, my belief is yes, the same anti LIV crowd would find a reason to be negative.

As for Greg not being invited, think R & A have made a mistake but they are entitled to invite whom they like, but go the whole hog and ban LIV players as well, I see a double standard here, but have been reading plenty of that lately.
		
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Musk might do it, but Bill Gates would not sponsor such a crass and vulgar display of gratuitous greed.


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			By that reasoning all the elite golfers should play where and when the PGA tells them to, how can that promote World golf if they only play where the PGA say?
...
		
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The above statement is illogical!
As independent contractors, elite golfers have the choice to play whichever tour - or tours - they want, provided the follow the rules of whichever tour(s) they join. That will include, for TPGAT and DPWT, minimum numbers of events and performance levels in order to 'keep their card'. There is no particular onus to play specific events (except, maybe, Tour Finals should they qualify).


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Musk might do it, but Bill Gates would not sponsor such a crass and vulgar display of gratuitous greed.
		
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You mean the Bill Gates who was friends with Jeffrey Epstein ?


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Musk might do it, but Bill Gates would not sponsor such a crass and vulgar display of gratuitous greed.
		
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Both Musk and Gates have (or, at least 'had'), as Gate's motivation has changed) the same fundamental goal - acquisition of wealth. Norman's is different - hatred of TPGAT. And he's found a sponsor with their own goals and funding that can support both.


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			You mean the Bill Gates who was friends with Jeffrey Epstein ?
		
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What exactly are you implying?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I read all this anti LIV sentiment and I wonder if it was Bill Gates or Elon Musk backing it would we still have all this animosity going on, my belief is yes, the same anti LIV crowd would find a reason to be negative.

As for Greg not being invited, think R & A have made a mistake but they are entitled to invite whom they like, but go the whole hog and ban LIV players as well, I see a double standard here, but have been reading plenty of that lately.
		
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Any ideas why for a while Greg Norman didn’t bother with the champions dinner and also didn’t bother playing in The Open even when he had the exemption ? 

Yet this year it’s all change ? Anything changed with him by any chance ?


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			You mean the Bill Gates who was friends with Jeffrey Epstein ?
		
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Even by the standards of this "debate", that is a really stupid and ignorant comment.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Both Musk and Gates have (or, at least 'had'), as Gate's motivation has changed) the same fundamental goal - acquisition of wealth. Norman's is different - hatred of TPGAT. And he's found a sponsor with their own goals and funding that can support both.
		
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I don't think Gates was motivated by acquisition of wealth. He was motivated by trying to make Microsoft a dominant technology, so perhaps wealth acquisition is implied. He has, however, used his fortune for a lot of impressive and often under the radar philanthropy since.


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What exactly are you implying?
		
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He is not as great a guy as you make him out to be.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Jesus, this is getting way off piste. Now the ethics of LIV Golf are somehow related to relative comparIsons with Bill Gates and Elon Musk.

Who next, Kim Jong Un, Stalin, Vlad the Impaler, Gru?


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## Bdill93 (Jul 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Jesus, this is getting way off piste. Now the ethics of LIV Golf are somehow related to relative com parsons with Bill Gates and Elon Musk.

Who next, Kim Jong Un, Stalin, Vlad the Impaler, Gru?
		
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Now a Gru backed invitational series is one I can get behind....


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			He is not as great a guy as you make him out to be.
		
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Er...Were did I 'make him out to be a great guy'?
On the other hand, you are making him out to  be something I'm pretty certain he isn't - which approaches defamation. Do you actually know him?
Anyway, it doesn't alter the fact that GN is simply pitching LIV as a business in competition against TPGAT, so they in turn are, quite reasonably imo, treating it as the existential threat tht it appears to be.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			He is not as great a guy as you make him out to be.
		
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Greg Norman and his Saudi mates are stand up guys though?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 11, 2022)

I’m sensing another thread locking….


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

Need two new threads one Pro Liv and one Anti Liv, then neutrals can go back and forth.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Need two new threads one Pro Liv and one Anti Liv, then neutrals can go back and forth.
		
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coming back to the Greg Norman/ R&A issue 

Any ideas on why he has changed his mind this year ?

Maybe @Mel Smooth might know

Now obviously before this year he didn’t seem to rate going to the champions dinner that highly or indeed playing in The Open being that crucial 

But this year all change - I guess most would look at it because he wanted to use the occasion to push LIv golf - which is exactly what he is being paid to do ?

Do you think that’s a realistic conclusion


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## Beezerk (Jul 11, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Need two new threads one Pro Liv and one Anti Liv, then neutrals can go back and forth.
		
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It needs the mods to get a grip of the really rude people and flamers, bang their heads together and tell them not to be so aggressive or condescending when posting.


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## Springveldt (Jul 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			coming back to the Greg Norman/ R&A issue

Any ideas on why he has changed his mind this year ?

Maybe @Mel Smooth might know

Now obviously before this year he didn’t seem to rate going to the champions dinner that highly or indeed playing in The Open being that crucial

But this year all change - I guess most would look at it because he wanted to use the occasion to push LIv golf - which is exactly what he is being paid to do ?

Do you think that’s a realistic conclusion
		
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Maybe it's because it's the 150th Open and at St Andrews? Maybe it's because he wants to push LIV Golf more?

Who really knows with that narcissist.


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## Slab (Jul 11, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			It needs the mods to get a grip of the really rude people and flamers, bang their heads together and tell them not to be so aggressive or condescending when posting.
		
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I’d have no objection if this thread was locked from Wed to Sun this week so we can avoid LIV/PGAT ‘chat’ while The Open is on

_(There is an interesting discussion to be had on this subject, but since we’re not getting that anyway what harm can it do)  _


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Maybe it's because it's the 150th Open and at St Andrews? Maybe it's because he wants to push LIV Golf more?

Who really knows with that narcissist.
		
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And that’s prob the reason why they first turned down his request to play and why he was “uninvited” to the dinner 

The Open should be purely about the Open 

What was good about the last two days at the Renaissance Club was the focus was on the Scottish Open once Poulter had left the building as they say

Hopefully it stays like that for this week and making sure Norman wasn’t given a platform was key to that


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			coming back to the Greg Norman/ R&A issue

Any ideas on why he has changed his mind this year ?

Maybe @Mel Smooth might know

Now obviously before this year he didn’t seem to rate going to the champions dinner that highly or indeed playing in The Open being that crucial

But this year all change - I guess most would look at it because he wanted to use the occasion to push LIv golf - which is exactly what he is being paid to do ?

Do you think that’s a realistic conclusion
		
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As it's the 150th, this one IS a bit special though!


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And that’s prob the reason why they first turned down his request to play
...
		
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As he doesn't automatically qualify (too old now), why should he be granted an exemption? It's likely that that request prompted/swayed/contributed to R&A's 'uninvite' decision.
That might not prevent him from attending some of the practice rounds or other gatherings mind. But such activity would likely vindicate the R&A's decision.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Slab said:



			I’d have no objection if this thread was locked from Wed to Sun this week so we can avoid LIV/PGAT ‘chat’ while The Open is on

Click to expand...

We should close it now and reopen it again after the Open, the one in 2025 at Portrush.


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## AussieKB (Jul 11, 2022)

No one is being forced to post, but I agree, it should all be about the Open now.


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## Backsticks (Jul 11, 2022)

The Open thread should be all about the Open. The LIV thread should be all about LIV. Nobody is obliged to open one if it doesn't interest them. Shutting down discussion of LIV would in itself indicate that LIV has very serious problems, whether the moral element, or the simpler sporting issue and whether it is helping or damaging to professional golf entertainment and sport.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The Open thread should be all about the Open. The LIV thread should be all about LIV. Nobody is obliged to open one if it doesn't interest them. Shutting down discussion of LIV would in itself indicate that LIV has very serious problems, whether the moral element, or the simpler sporting issue and whether it is helping or damaging to professional golf entertainment and sport.
		
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OK, can we have a daily post limit per member?


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## PieMan (Jul 11, 2022)

Close the thread and reopen it once the decision has been announced that the golf league funded by the headchoppers and journalist murderers has not been granted OWGR points...............!!


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## chrisd (Jul 11, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Close the thread and reopen it once the decision has been announced that the golf league funded by the headchoppers and journalist murderers has not been granted OWGR points...............!! 

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Just wondering what form the halfway cut takes 😖😖


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2022)

It’s simple - if you want to talk about LIV then talk about it - but don’t be aggressive towards people and also don’t bring “politics” into it.

It’s a topic that’s been debated daily and hotly across multiple platforms by golfers and at times non golfers

I’m sure we can manage to discuss this without the mods needing to close or restrict posts


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## SteveW86 (Jul 11, 2022)

For the ban on politics on the forum, this thread is allowed to go y off track far too often into the world of political discussion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I’m sure we can manage to discuss this without the mods needing to close or restrict posts*

Click to expand...

Everyone needs to try a lot harder


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone needs to try a lot harder
		
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Everyone or just a certain few? As per the political threads that we can no longer discuss, it seems to be a few that cause the problem rather than the many.

Sorry Phil, I appreciate the problems you face and the unpaid efforts you put in, but it seems to be the same issue as before, just in a different thread.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			For the ban on politics on the forum, this thread is allowed to go y off track far too often into the world of political discussion.
		
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Can’t say I’ve seen any political stuff on this thread 
Posts about Musk / Gates etc are off on a wide tangent, but not political


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Everyone or just a certain few? As per the political threads that we can no longer discuss, it seems to be a few that cause the problem rather than the many.

Sorry Phil, I appreciate the problems you face and the unpaid efforts you put in, but it seems to be the same issue as before, just in a different thread.
		
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So help us out and report stuff that oversteps the mark 👍


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## SteveW86 (Jul 11, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can’t say I’ve seen any political stuff on this thread
Posts about Musk / Gates etc are off on a wide tangent, but not political
		
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I guess it depends where you view the line.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 11, 2022)

Decent 5 minute read here on the way forward for LIV and the tours.

https://www.feralgolfer.com/post/the-answer-sheet-to-jay-s-summer-exams


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Decent 5 minute read here on the way forward for LIV and the tours.

https://www.feralgolfer.com/post/the-answer-sheet-to-jay-s-summer-exams

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Nothing I didn't know or have a view on already.
Though 'good' to see confirmation that others think the Team format is diabolical too!


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

Greg Norman must be seething that John Daly, the new face of Birds Eye fish fingers, got an invitation and he didn’t. 🤣🤣. And in the same group as Louis Oosthuizen, who obviously did get the invite.


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Greg Norman must be seething that John Daly, the new face of Birds Eye fish fingers, got an invitation and he didn’t. 🤣🤣. And in the same group as Louis Oosthuizen, who obviously did get the invite.
		
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Both meet the age criteria, while he doesn't.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Both meet the age criteria, while he doesn't.
		
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Given that Tom Watson, who is older than Greg Norman, is playing, I think you might be mistaken.


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given that Tom Watson, who is older than Greg Norman, is playing, I think you might be mistaken.
		
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Is Watson actually playing *in *The Open though? Or 'merely' The Celebrations of Champions *at* The Open?
https://www.theopen.com/latest/celebration-of-the-champions-tee-announcements-150th-open
Interesting way to spend his honeymoon! https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sport...cbs-executive-leslie-anne-wade-golf/50472137/
Btw. The above article states he retired from competitive golf in 2019, so I wouldn't expect him to be taking a place that would be available to a 'proper' competitor. He's not that sort of guy!


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone needs to try a lot harder
		
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Foxholer said:



			Is Watson actually playing *in *The Open though? Or 'merely' The Celebrations of Champions *at* The Open?
https://www.theopen.com/latest/celebration-of-the-champions-tee-announcements-150th-open
Interesting way to spend his honeymoon! https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sport...cbs-executive-leslie-anne-wade-golf/50472137/
Btw. The above article states he retired from competitive golf in 2019, so I wouldn't expect him to be taking a place that would be available to a 'proper' competitor. He's not that sort of guy!
		
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Dear Fragger, please accept my my apologies for not trying harder.

Foxtroller, neither Daly nor Oosthuizen have been *invited* to play in The Open; they are *qualified* as previous Champions under the age of 60.  They have however been *invited* to take part in the Celebration of Champions, something which Greg Norman did not receive an invitation to; quite the opposite in fact.

The posts you quoted were made whilst the Celebration of Champions was on, and haven't mentioned The Open. That they referred to the Celebration of Champions should have been blindingly obvious to anyone except to a utter pedant who is looking to score points.  Rather than take the posts at face value, you've looked beyond anything actually there to try and put someone else down in your usual supercilious fashion.  Any chance you could Fox off to somewhere that your superiority complex & nitpicking over the use of the English language might be appreciated?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2022)

Well
That told him
Think you should get off the fence and speak your mind 👍


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Dear Fragger, please accept my my apologies for not trying harder.

Foxtroller, neither Daly nor Oosthuizen have been *invited* to play in The Open; they are *qualified* as previous Champions under the age of 60.  They have however been *inivited* to take part in the Celebration of Champions, something which Greg Norman did not receive an invitation to; quite the opposite in fact.

The posts you quoted were made whilst the Celebration of Champions was on, and haven't mentioned The Open. That they referred to the Celebration of Champions should have been blindingly obvious to anyone except to a utter pedant who is looking to score points.  Rather than take the posts at face value, you've looked beyond anything actually there to try and put someone else down in your usual supercilious fashion.  Any chance you could Fox off to somewhere that your superiority complex & nitpicking over the use of the English language might be appreciated?
		
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Thanks for the 'apology'!
And in return, I my apologies for simply reading what you posted, instead of reading your mind.


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## evemccc (Jul 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:




Thanks for the 'apology'!
And in return, *I apologies *for simply reading what you posted, instead of reading your mind.
		
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Touché — surely *apologise..?!😃😜


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## Reemul (Jul 12, 2022)

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-antitrust-liv-golf-report


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2022)

Reemul said:



https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-antitrust-liv-golf-report

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That was the approach they were always going to take. Antitrust is about monopolies and competition. I expect the PGA Tour thinks they are on solid ground. US Courts can be unpredictable, though. I suspect this is also intended to force a settlement. We shall see.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 12, 2022)

Tiger Woods sums it up


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## patricks148 (Jul 12, 2022)

I've no particular interest in it, but I think it's to much to expect sportsmen to have a conscience when the government of both UK and US have none when it comes to  The Saudis.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 43462


Tiger Woods sums it up
		
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Sums up the negative/ anti LIV view yeah.

Theres still something in it I think... It needs some work and some time - but a shorter format of Cricket worked wonders for the game. Why can't a shorter format of golf have a place?

Kids these days have attention spans so short that 72 hole golf just cant be the only way forward.


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## evemccc (Jul 12, 2022)

Why does everything have to appeal to kids?

Many people find golf later in life, and many kids and adults who like it, is because it’s an antidote to the neon-lights, popcorn and fireworks, loud music and ‘sexy’ razzamatazz that boring middle-aged marketing execs and sports administrators THINK people - and esp kids want….

Spoiler alert — many kids aren’t as brain-dead and inane as these people think (and those who go for that sort of thing, aren’t likely to stick around for long)


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



*Why does everything have to appeal to kids?*

Many people find golf later in life, and many kids and adults who like it, is because it’s an antidote to the neon-lights, popcorn and fireworks, loud music and ‘sexy’ razzamatazz that boring middle-aged marketing execs and sports administrators THINK people - and esp kids want
		
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Because they're the future?

In 25 years time half the members at my club will be gone from this world. Their replacements are currently 10-15 years old.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Sums up the negative/ anti LIV view yeah.

Theres still something in it I think... It needs some work and some time - but a shorter format of Cricket worked wonders for the game. Why can't a shorter format of golf have a place?

*Kids these days have attention spans so short that 72 hole golf just cant be the only way forward*.
		
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Surely that would also have been true for kids in the good old days? I know that when I was a kid in the 80's and 90's, I wouldn't have the attention span to sit through a 72 hole tournament on TV. If I wasn't at school or sleeping, I was constantly out with my mates, randomly doing anything we could think of. If anything, kids these days have MORE chance to sit and home and watch golf, as at least they are apparently in doors more often and glued to some sort of device that has youtube.


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## evemccc (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Because they're the future?

In 25 years time half the members at my club will be gone from this world. *Their replacements are currently 10-15 years old*.
		
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That’s a fallacy, IMO

You don’t think there won’t be a lot of current 20-35 year olds who’ll be taking memberships up as there kids get older / move out, and they have more free time as they get to 45+?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			That’s a fallacy, IMO

You don’t think there won’t be a lot of current 20-35 year olds who’ll be taking memberships up as there kids get older / move out, and they have more free time as they get to 45+?
		
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It is a good point. I often hear about golf clubs desperately trying to promote their club to kids, as they are the members of the future. It is true to a point. But, surely the biggest drive should be towards 35-45 year olds. At that age, many will have a settled family life, older kids. Also, you get a lot of people who are starting to give up other sports like football, and looking to their next competitive challenge. Finally, they are starting to get a bit more disposable income. I know loads of current older members who said they only got into the game in their 40's for example.


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## IainP (Jul 12, 2022)

Putting aside the wider debate for a moment, the 54 hole thing has had a lot of mention, and today by Tiger


His argument seems a bit confused, on the one hand saying things have changed - we don't have the long play offs any more - but things mustn't change.

What actually is the argument, is it that professionals should graft for longer? If so why don't we have 90 hole, or 108 hole tournaments?

People regularly talk about the Ryder Cup final day being the pinnacle of entertainment -  18 holes (or fewer) played.

When pros start out I think they often play 18 & 36 hole comps.

"The PGA _EuroPro Tour_ Qualifying School Final will be contested over 54 holes of stroke play with 18 holes being played each day "

Like most I am used to 72 holes, it is familiar - but should we be closed to change, because that is how it has been?

I would wish the majors to stay 72 holes though


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is a good point. I often hear about golf clubs desperately trying to promote their club to kids, as they are the members of the future. It is true to a point. But, surely the biggest drive should be towards 35-45 year olds. At that age, many will have a settled family life, older kids. Also, you get a lot of people who are starting to give up other sports like football, and looking to their next competitive challenge. Finally, they are starting to get a bit more disposable income. I know loads of current older members who said they only got into the game in their 40's for example.
		
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But what if they want a younger audience than the current golf market? Why does it have to be limited to people in their later years? Its golf for entertainment - not physically playing the sport themselves.

Me and friends buy tickets to go see the Worcester Rapids play 20/20 - Id never ever go watch Worcestershire play a test match. Different formats attract different audiences!



evemccc said:



			That’s a fallacy, IMO

You don’t think there won’t be a lot of current *20-35 year old*s who’ll be taking memberships up as there kids get older / move out, and they have more free time as they get to 45+?
		
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Fallacy maybe but its inevitable that some do start to play golf one day.... I work in a school, I can see how things are trending on the ground every day with the next generation. (Side note - F1 has gained massive popularity thanks to Drive to Survive on Netflix - I know golf is soon to have a similar concept so even the PGA tour are aware they need to attract a younger audience and have identified this method as a viable option - cant wait for that.)

Well Im in this exact bracket - 28 to be exact - and Im not anti LIV - enjoyed watching it live and even took non golfer mates who enjoyed the experience of drinking, eating good food and watching some pros whack a ball around a nice course. Were not talking about playing golf, were talking about increasing the marketability of the golfing game in different formats, which in turn may increase participation in the long term too.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Because they're the future?

In 25 years time half the members at my club will be gone from this world. Their replacements are currently 10-15 years old.
		
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I don't think YouTube or LIV is really the best way to get kids involved in golf. If they are inspired by watching LIV, doubtful, it's what the clubs do with them that will make them stay, not just the LIV Tour


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I don't think YouTube or LIV is really the best way to get kids involved in golf. If they are inspired by watching LIV, doubtful, it's what the clubs do with them that will make them stay, not just the LIV Tour
		
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Youtube I disagree, loads of content on there that makes golf fun!

LIV - maybe - but a shorter format is by no means a bad idea in my opinion - as per post 3740


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## r0wly86 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Youtube I disagree, loads of content on there that makes golf fun!

LIV - maybe - but a shorter format is by no means a bad idea in my opinion - as per post 3740
		
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I have been over this before. YouTube only works if people are looking for the specific thing or something related. A young person with no interest in golf, is not going to stumble on YouTube golfers and be convinced to start playing. If they are already golfers then there is useful stuff on YouTube.

Plus if we are talking lack of attention plan, 54 holes hardly helps, it is still hours and hours of footage to watch. It is not like T20 and Test Match Cricket, this is a 4 day test vs a 5 day test


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I have been over this before. YouTube only works if people are looking for the specific thing or something related. A young person with no interest in golf, is not going to stumble on YouTube golfers and be convinced to start playing. If they are already golfers then there is useful stuff on YouTube.

Plus if we are talking lack of attention plan, 54 holes hardly helps, it is still hours and hours of footage to watch. It is not like T20 and Test Match Cricket*, this is a 4 day test vs a 5 day test[*/QUOTE]

But its not quite. Shotgun starts mean the whole event is over max 6 hours after it officially starts. 

And I beg to differ - you can easily deviate from dude perfect to good good to rick shiels in no time at all. The bigger the channels get, the more the videos are shown on the homepage... Its all algorithm
		
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## r0wly86 (Jul 12, 2022)

but doesn't mean they will watch Rick Sheils does it? And even less likely that as a result they will take up the sport and get their parents to pay for membership and clubs


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## Bdill93 (Jul 12, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			but doesn't mean they will watch Rick Sheils does it? And even less likely that as a result they will take up the sport and get their parents to pay for membership and clubs
		
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Quite negative!

Yeah maybe not all of them - but some! I played golf when I was 14 for a year, dad didnt play then - I just talked my parents into it because thats what I wanted to do.

It only takes one popular kid to show their friends how cool one video is or something and BANG youve got 5 kids practising flop shots over each others heads


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## Swango1980 (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But what if they want a younger audience than the current golf market? Why does it have to be limited to people in their later years? Its golf for entertainment - not physically playing the sport themselves.

Me and friends buy tickets to go see the Worcester Rapids play 20/20 - Id never ever go watch Worcestershire play a test match. Different formats attract different audiences!
		
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To be fair, I was only making a specific point about trying to appeal to a limited target audience, and likening that to clubs focusing primarily on youngsters, when I always thought they'd do better appealing to the 35-45 age range.

However, in that case and specifically to do with LIV, obviously you want to reach out to as many people as possible, young and old. It is great for LIV if they can pick up new fans. However, it is worth noting that the most enthusiastic and biggest market for them will be those that already like golf (unless LIV thinks it can more than double the current fans of golf compared to what we have now). So, it is all very well trying new things to win over new fans. However, for every new fan they win, it is neutralised if they turn off an existing fan. So, change is always inevitable and can be for the best, it doesn't mean that all change is always for the best. Sometimes change can have negative unintended consequences.


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## Backsticks (Jul 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Because they're the future?

In 25 years time half the members at my club will be gone from this world. Their replacements are currently 10-15 years old.
		
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But in 25 years they will be middle aged. So golf needs to appeal to the 40 somethings. Oh wait.... it already does!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 12, 2022)

So let me get this straight, golf is fine because it appeals to people that are old?


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			... golf is fine.... It appeals to people that are old?
		
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FTFY.
It also appeals to the young too - or are you torturing the lad you video so often?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			FTFY.
It also appeals to the young too - or are you torturing the lad you video so often?
		
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I'm honoured that you take such an interest in me mate. 

Hope you don't mind if it's not reciprocated.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So let me get this straight, golf is fine because it appeals to people that are old?
		
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Looking at the amount of young people that have joined our club over the last 18 months and how many turn up for junior lessons it seems it appeals to all ages - as it always has


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Looking at the amount of young people that have joined our club over the last 18 months and how many turn up for junior lessons it seems it appeals to all ages - as it always has
		
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Good to hear, are they getting out on the course as well?


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## Backsticks (Jul 12, 2022)

Same in our club. What we did was allow them play 54 holes rather than 72, and grouped them in little teams with cool names that really appeal to that age group. They love the game now thats its no longer a 72 hole thing with no teams that was just so middle aged fuddy duddies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Good to hear, are they getting out on the course as well?
		
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Yep why wouldn’t they be going on the course 🤷‍♂️


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## BiMGuy (Jul 12, 2022)

Looks like Bridgestone have dropped Bryson.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 12, 2022)

Tiger has spoken. Close the thread.


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## RRidges (Jul 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Looks like Bridgestone have dropped Bryson.
		
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He's still playing Bridgestone balla and has more than a simple sponsorship relationship.
It wouldn't surprise me if it's a bit of a sham though and Bryson gets paid handsomely for his future contribution to their research. But it resolves any conflict with the PGA Tour.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/Open-Championship2022-bryson-dechambeau-splits-up-with-bridgestone


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Looks like Bridgestone have dropped Bryson.
		
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Mickleson has lost most of his sponsers and Callaway have “paused” their player contract 

There have been loads of pictures with the players shirts etc where they normally are covered in sponsor labels but most have gone with a few just having “Saudi Golf” now


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## AussieKB (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mickleson has lost most of his sponsers and Callaway have “paused” their player contract

There have been loads of pictures with the players shirts etc where they normally are covered in sponsor labels but most have gone with a few just having “Saudi Golf” now
		
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Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.


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## Depreston (Jul 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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Yes i've bought quite a few things from NETJETS


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## Bdill93 (Jul 13, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Yes i've bought quite a few things from NETJETS
		
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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2022)

I don't think that losing a few sponsors really matters when you see what the players are getting from the LIV tour. It's small change in comparison.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think that losing a few sponsors really matters when you see what the players are getting from the LIV tour. It's small change in comparison.
		
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In financial terms no; in terms of making a statement about how the sponsors feel about the LIV Tour it is loud and clear.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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The obvious answer to that is yes. Otherwise you know something that the biggest brands in the world do not, and you could save them millions, if not billions, by telling them to not bother. People may not go out and directly buy something because they see a logo (and some do), but the very fact the logo is there will mean that it becomes recognisable to many, and so when they do go out an buy a shirt, they may consciously or subconsciously have some sort of bias towards that particular brand.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 13, 2022)

As a sponsor of a WGC event and Senior Major Bridgestone were always going to ditch BDC, no business sense to do otherwise.

I bet 90% of golfers were unaware of which ball he used anyway, same with Tiger and which ball he plays.


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## Beezerk (Jul 13, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			In financial terms no; in terms of making a statement about how the sponsors feel about the LIV Tour it is loud and clear.
		
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Does anyone really care anymore about Ralph Lauren dropping JT from their sponsorship? I’m pretty sure JT has forgotten all about it.


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## AussieKB (Jul 13, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Yes i've bought quite a few things from NETJETS
		
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thanks for the heads up, am off to Thailand next month but have already booked with Singapore, but hope to fly to England next year so will check out there prices.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			In financial terms no; in terms of making a statement about how the sponsors feel about the LIV Tour it is loud and clear.
		
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I think they will be quoting Catherine Tate at this point. As Beezerk has pointed out, the stance of sponsors is frequently temporary, others step in. JT was a pariah but is now fully plastered with logos, clothing sponsor again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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I don’t think that’s the point is it 🤷‍♂️

Companies pay the players a lot of more to “advertise” their company and golf companies pay a lot to make these players staff players 

If sponsoring the players has no benefit for the companies then why do they do it 🤷‍♂️

And yes some people will buy ping , titleist, TM etc because some players use them

Right now the exposure for those companies is negative for some hence why moving away from the players


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## PieMan (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think that’s the point is it 🤷‍♂️

Companies pay the players a lot of more to “advertise” their company and golf companies pay a lot to make these players staff players

If sponsoring the players has no benefit for the companies then why do they do it 🤷‍♂️

And yes some people will buy ping , titleist, TM etc because some players use them

Right now the exposure for those companies is negative for some hence why moving away from the players
		
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You've forgotten to add that as part of sponsorship a player will do a number of personal appearances at sponsors events, whether golf days or other events for staff/clients.

So you can see why a number of big global brands are dropping the LIV players as they're thinking of their wider business interests.


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## Springveldt (Jul 13, 2022)

Personally I think a lot of the sponsorship stuff that has been dropped will be redone at a cheaper rate later. Most will be using the contract clauses of being seen on the PGA Tour with the stuff to get a cheaper deal with the player.

You have Bridgestone dropping BdC while they have been in business for over 70 years in Saudi Arabia, even proudly live streaming the celebration event a few years ago.


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## Beezerk (Jul 13, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Personally I think a lot of the sponsorship stuff that has been dropped will be redone at a cheaper rate later. Most will be using the contract clauses of being seen on the PGA Tour with the stuff to get a cheaper deal with the player.

You have Bridgestone dropping BdC while they have been in business for over 70 years in Saudi Arabia, even proudly live streaming the celebration event a few years ago.







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Just goes with the current trend of virtue signalling, no matter how hypocritical it may be.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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On a similar theme, I don't understand Coke and Pepsi spending so much on advertising. Has anyone ever been in a bar or restaurant and ordered a Coke, when the waitress says we've got Pepsi? If so, do you decline and leave or do what I do and reply "Yes that's fine"?


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## Slab (Jul 13, 2022)

PieMan said:



*You've forgotten to add that as part of sponsorship a player will do a number of personal appearances at sponsors events,* whether golf days or other events for staff/clients.

So you can see why a number of big global brands are dropping the LIV players as they're thinking of their wider business interests.
		
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Good point... and since some of these commitments are very likely to take place at PGAT events and the player is banned from attending... well it kinda scuppers that portion of their contracted obligations and a change of agreement is the least that'll be needed


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## IainP (Jul 13, 2022)

PieMan said:



			You've forgotten to add that as part of sponsorship a player will do a number of personal appearances at sponsors events, whether golf days or other events for staff/clients.

So you can see why a number of big global brands are dropping the LIV players as they're thinking of their wider business interests.
		
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I was going to mention similar, but with a different angle. As you say the sponsorships come with a number of commitments - photo shoots, clinics, etc.  The players may be feeling they aren't so in need of the extra, and regular income from the sponsorships, and may welcome the diary days back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/id...pg9x6Ku7h5Wv07IayMhiedbvQ#l5js7q8sstr9h9ln3a8


“There is no such thing as a free lunch,” he said. “I believe the model we've seen at Centurion and Pumpkin Ridge is not in the best long-term interests of the sport as a whole and is entirely driven by money. We believe it undermines the merit-based culture and the spirit of open competition that makes golf so special. I would also like to say that in my opinion the continued commentary that this is about growing the game is just not credible and if anything, is harming the perception of our sport which we are working so hard to improve.””


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/id...pg9x6Ku7h5Wv07IayMhiedbvQ#l5js7q8sstr9h9ln3a8


“There is no such thing as a free lunch,” he said. “I believe the model we've seen at Centurion and Pumpkin Ridge is not in the best long-term interests of the sport as a whole and is entirely driven by money. We believe it undermines the merit-based culture and the spirit of open competition that makes golf so special. I would also like to say that in my opinion the continued commentary that this is about growing the game is just not credible and if anything, is harming the perception of our sport which we are working so hard to improve.””
		
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What have the R&A done to grow the game then, realistically?


What changes are they making that take it to new audiences, and get non golfers interested?


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## Crow (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What have the R&A done to grow the game then, realistically?


What changes are they making that take it to new audiences, and get non golfers interested?
		
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They took the Sky $


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What have the R&A done to grow the game then, realistically?


What changes are they making that take it to new audiences, and get non golfers interested?
		
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https://www.randa.org/en/what-we-do

And wasn’t moving to Sky all about reaching newer audiences and sky bringing innovations to the way they broadcast The Open


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Crow said:



			They took the Sky $
		
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See, the terrestrial TV coverage of golf isn't worth a shiny shite these days is it?

If they wanted to grow the game, they'd be showcasing their premier event to as many people as possible wouldn't they - even if it was a worthwhile highlights package.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.randa.org/en/what-we-do

And wasn’t moving to Sky all about reaching newer audiences and sky bringing innovations to the way they broadcast The Open
		
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I've clicked the link and watched the video - and Martin Slumbers has said golf particiaption is up because of Covid, and we need to keep those people involved....

That's it!!

As for the Sky Coverage of The Open, there was nothing better than watching it on the beeb, and it should have remained that way. They just took the money - the very same thing that the LIV players are castigated for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I've clicked the link and watched the video - and Martin Slumbers has said golf particiaption is up because of Covid, and we need to keep those people involved....

That's it!!

As for the Sky Coverage of The Open, there was nothing better than watching it on the beeb, and it should have remained that way. They just took the money - the very same thing that the LIV players are castigated for.
		
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Did you not see the playbook ? 

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent...0b-9407-20918eeafb5b/The RA Playbookfinal.pdf

“
*£200m Investment*
We are aiming to invest £200 million into golf over a 10-year period (2017-2026) in supporting a range of participation, coaching, grassroots, inclusion, sustainability and Rules education initiatives across the world, as well as maintaining our governance of the sport and staging world class championships. Working through our network of 159 affiliated organisations in 144 countries, we promote accessible, affordable and sustainable golf. This investment is largely supported by the proceeds of The Open. The profits made from our Championships are re-invested in the sport to help us achieve our goal of ensuring golf is thriving 50 years from now.”


I also enjoyed watching on the BBC but the money from Sky will help go towards growing the game. 

I guess giving £200mil to grassroots is better than giving £200mil to Mickleson


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you not see the playbook ?

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/c42c7bf4-dca7-00ea-4f2e-373223f80f76/a017b024-46e9-470b-9407-20918eeafb5b/The RA Playbookfinal.pdf

“
*£200m Investment*
We are aiming to invest £200 million into golf over a 10-year period (2017-2026) in supporting a range of participation, coaching, grassroots, inclusion, sustainability and Rules education initiatives across the world, as well as maintaining our governance of the sport and staging world class championships. Working through our network of 159 affiliated organisations in 144 countries, we promote accessible, affordable and sustainable golf. This investment is largely supported by the proceeds of The Open. The profits made from our Championships are re-invested in the sport to help us achieve our goal of ensuring golf is thriving 50 years from now.”


I also enjoyed watching on the BBC but the money from Sky will help go towards growing the game.

I guess giving £200mil to grassroots is better than giving £200mil to Mickleson
		
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Ok, we're 5 years in on that ten year period - what has changed?

American dominance of the game has increased, municipal golf clubs are shutting down all over the country, but the prize money at The Open has gone up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, we're 5 years in on that ten year period - what has changed?

American dominance of the game has increased, municipal golf clubs are shutting down all over the country, but the prize money at The Open has gone up.
		
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Very strange criteria 🤷‍♂️

American dominance ? How is that anything to with them R&A 🤷‍♂️ - even though the most recent major winner is English 

And municipal clubs are run by councils and could be closing for many reasons - none of which have anything to do with the R&A 🤷‍♂️


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, we're 5 years in on that ten year period - what has changed?

American dominance of the game has increased, municipal golf clubs are shutting down all over the country, but the prize money at The Open has gone up.
		
Click to expand...

And the answer is to think Saudis can do a better job. 🤔 Baby and bath water.

Mod Edit, Political


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very strange criteria 🤷‍♂️

American dominance ? How is that anything to with them R&A 🤷‍♂️ - even though the most recent major winner is English

And municipal clubs are run by councils and could be closing for many reasons - none of which have anything to do with the R&A 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

He's taking the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' view. He hates all golfing bodies so much he doesn't give a flying fig which bunch of shysters throw a load of money at it.


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very strange criteria 🤷‍♂️

American dominance ? How is that anything to with them R&A 🤷‍♂️ - even though the most recent major winner is English

And municipal clubs are run by councils and could be closing for many reasons - none of which have anything to do with the R&A 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

A typically obtuse reading of the argument by the apologist in chief (not you, obvs), as we have come to expect.

As for American domination, where is LIV Golf headquartered?. West Palm Beach, FL. Isn't that where Trump lives? What are the chances?

The R&A runs lots of grassroots events and Championships, professional, amateur, men, women, juniors. I must have missed the LIV Golf announcement of their versions.

This week the R&A is hosting arguably the biggest global golf event in the game, at a public course you and I can play. The LIV Tour events all look like they are at private exclusive courses or very expensive resorts. That'll really draw in the golf-curious. They also are main players in development of the rules, including distance limits and other things to preserve the courses we have.

In the growing the game contest, it is laughably one-sided. In truth, we know that the LIV Tour have no interest in growing the game, just growing their power and the bank balance;ances of their top players. Soon enough they will squeeze out some of the chaff. I don't think Jediah should bank on being there for the long term.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very strange criteria 🤷‍♂️

American dominance ? How is that anything to with them R&A 🤷‍♂️ - even though the most recent major winner is English

And municipal clubs are run by councils and could be closing for many reasons - none of which have anything to do with the R&A 🤷‍♂️
		
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So what good has the 200 million investment done then?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			A typically obtuse reading of the argument by the apologist in chief (not you, obvs), as we have come to expect.

As for American domination, where is LIV Golf headquartered?. West Palm Beach, FL. Isn't that where Trump lives? What are the chances?

The R&A runs lots of grassroots events and Championships, professional, amateur, men, women, juniors. I must have missed the LIV Golf announcement of their versions.

This week the R&A is hosting arguably the biggest global golf event in the game, at a public course you and I can play. The LIV Tour events all look like they are at private exclusive courses or very expensive resorts. That'll really draw in the golf-curious. They also are main players in development of the rules, including distance limits and other things to preserve the courses we have.

In the growing the game contest, it is laughably one-sided. In truth, we know that the LIV Tour have no interest in growing the game, just growing their power and the bank balance;ances of their top players. Soon enough they will squeeze out some of the chaff. I don't think Jediah should bank on being there for the long term.
		
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How much is a green fee at St Andrew’s Ethan. That public course that we can all play?


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## PieMan (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what good has the 200 million investment done then?
		
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Probably a whole lot more than the £200m or whatever it was thrown at Mickelsen to make a prize tit of himself over the last 6 months or however long its been!! 

But I forget - LIV is all about giving the caddies a fair wage isn't it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what good has the 200 million investment done then?
		
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Have you even bothered to read their vision ?

What exactly are you looking to see from £200mil investment into the sport ? Do you need me to break down the £200mil ?

it could be anything from coaching , funding for local authorities, schemes to get people into golf , schemes to target demographics who don’t normally play or interested in golf




Mel Smooth said:



			How much is a green fee at St Andrew’s Ethan. That public course that we can all play?
		
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A lot cheaper than Wembley , Twickenham or Lords


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## Jimaroid (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what good has the 200 million investment done then?
		
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https://www.randa.org/articles/golf-for-the-disabled-develops-with-edga

Show us Liv doing something like this. And that is just one simple example among hundreds.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



https://www.randa.org/articles/golf-for-the-disabled-develops-with-edga

Show us Liv doing something like this. And that is just one simple example among hundreds.
		
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https://www.livgolf.com/news/liv-go...-benefit-local-communities-in-the-uk-ahead-of


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you even bothered to read their vision ?

What exactly are you looking to see from £200mil investment into the sport ? Do you need me to break down the £200mil ?

it could be anything from coaching , funding for local authorities, schemes to get people into golf , schemes to target demographics who don’t normally play or interested in golf




A lot cheaper than Wembley , Twickenham or Lords
		
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So how much is it then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



https://www.livgolf.com/news/liv-go...-benefit-local-communities-in-the-uk-ahead-of

Click to expand...

Which golf clubs etc or golf schemes will get that money ? How will it help grow the game ?


Mel Smooth said:



			So how much is it then?
		
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about £250 I think for a visitors fee but there are multiple deals and members guests etc 

Great value to play an iconic sporting venue and the greatest golfing experience I have had


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## Beezerk (Jul 13, 2022)

Just a thought, do you think LIV will introduce its own major at some point?
Have it over 72 holes at a top course maybe.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which golf clubs etc or golf schemes will get that money ? How will it help grow the game ?


about £250 I think for a visitors fee but there are multiple deals and members guests etc

Great value to play an iconic sporting venue and the greatest golfing experience I have had
		
Click to expand...

It’s £270, reduced for under 16’s to err, £270.

That’s how much your precious R&A care about growing the game Phil.
They’re a bunch of greedy bastards, maximising their (the courses) value  no different to DJ, BDC, etc.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Just a thought, do you think LIV will introduce its own major at some point?
Have it over 72 holes at a top course maybe.
		
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I think that’s the idea of the final round tbh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s £270, reduced for under 16’s to err, £270.

That’s how much your precious R&A care about growing the game Phil.
They’re a bunch of greedy bastards, maximising their (the courses) value  no different to DJ, BDC, etc.
		
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Is that why you think they charge £270 ? Greed ?

Nothing at all to do with rising costs ? Lost money during the Covid years and the drop in visitors ? And the money from the green fees goes towards the courses does it not ? 

no one is forcing you to pay it - but you have the chance to play TOC if you want , you don’t get that chance in other sports.

And how much is it to play Centurion as a visitor ? 


Beezerk said:



			Just a thought, do you think LIV will introduce its own major at some point?
Have it over 72 holes at a top course maybe.
		
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It won’t be classed as a major to the golfing community- they will try and have a final comp etc and prob at a Trump course


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How much is a green fee at St Andrew’s Ethan. That public course that we can all play?
		
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That is typical of your posts, select one line you think you can attack (answer - reasonable for the most famous course in the country, and good access for locals) but ignore the rest that you can't defend,. It is rather pathetic, actually. 

LIV venues are Centurion (private), Pumpkin Ridge (private), Trump Bedminster (private, LIV Golf $75 a day), The Oaks, Boston (private), Rich Harvest Farms, Chicago (private), Stonehill, Bangkok (wild guess? - yes, private), Royal Greens Jeddah (dunno about green fee, but £8k a year membership, LIV Golf $80 a day), Trump Doral (green fee $390). 

You must be utterly delusional if you think those events are going to bring many grass roots in.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that why you think they charge £270 ? Greed ?

Nothing at all to do with rising costs ? Lost money during the Covid years and the drop in visitors ? And the money from the green fees goes towards the courses does it not ?

no one is forcing you to pay it - but you have the chance to play TOC if you want , you don’t get that chance in other sports.

And how much is it to play Centurion as a visitor ?


It won’t be classed as a major to the golfing community- they will try and have a final comp etc and prob at a Trump course
		
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Of course it’s greed. They’re charging a premium price because they know sentimentality will override the ridiculous cost to play it, the fact that there’s no reduction for a junior green fee highlights that.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 13, 2022)

Anyway boys, I’m off this thread for a few days. Let’s hope we have a thrilling weekend from Scotland.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s £270, reduced for under 16’s to err, £270.

That’s how much your precious R&A care about growing the game Phil.
They’re a bunch of greedy bastards, maximising their (the courses) value  no different to DJ, BDC, etc.
		
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Except for the fact that The Old Course is owned by Fife council and run by The St Andrews Links Trust you were almost accurate there. The R&A don't set the green fees for The Old Course. The Links Trust do. The R&A aren't maximising any value. 

But then I guess you've already shown that you don't care about where the money is coming from so why be accurate about where the money is going to?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course it’s greed. They’re charging a premium price because they know sentimentality will override the ridiculous cost to play it, the fact that there’s no reduction for a junior green fee highlights that.
		
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why do you ignore many parts of peoples replies to you ?

The money from the green fees go towards the Trust that run the courses - believe they lost about £20mil plus during Covid when their annual income is around £30mil - they have huge costs - wages , bills - it’s not cheap to run such a huge trust 

The green fees allow the trust to be sustainable. 

And yet it’s still lower that some of the other courses 

so how much is it to play Centurion as a visitor?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Anyway boys, I’m off this thread for a few days. Let’s hope we have a thrilling weekend from Scotland.
		
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Probably a good move, I was thinking of  locking the thread for a bit, as it’s just going round in circles and deteriorating


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## Jimaroid (Jul 13, 2022)

If only there was a way to enforce a few days away more permanently. 🤔


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Just a thought, do you think LIV will introduce its own major at some point?
Have it over 72 holes at a top course maybe.
		
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If they want it in the UK then Turnberry seems the obvious match up.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s £270, reduced for under 16’s to err, £270.

That’s how much your precious R&A care about growing the game Phil.
They’re a bunch of greedy bastards, maximising their (the courses) value  no different to DJ, BDC, etc.
		
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What has the cost of playing the Old Course got to do with the R&A?.


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## fenwayrich (Jul 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Anyway boys, I’m off this thread for a few days. Let’s hope we have a thrilling weekend from Scotland.
		
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Thank goodness for that.


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## RRidges (Jul 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



			As for American domination, where is LIV Golf headquartered?. West Palm Beach, FL. Isn't that where Trump lives? What are the chances?
		
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It's certainly where Greg Norman has a home.
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlan...h-gardens-mansion/Slideshow/30945279/30812971


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## RRidges (Jul 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If they want it in the UK then Turnberry seems the obvious match up.
		
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That could well be the 2-fingers approach that would make both Norman and Trump smile, perhaps for an end of season Grand Final. Especially after R&A's recent negative view on it. That negative view doesn't look good for LIV's OWGR aspirations. 
If there is a Grand Final, I doubt the format would change though as that's a key part LIV's USP.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

RRidges said:



			It's certainly where Greg Norman has a home.
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlan...h-gardens-mansion/Slideshow/30945279/30812971

Click to expand...

Yeah, near enough. Palm Beach Gardens is a few miles further away than Mar a Lago (Trump's residence) and the Trump course to the LIV offices, but all pretty close.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

Click here - a well known Golf magazine reporting LIV players may be kicked out of all 4 majors next year. Interesting.

Providing they are offered a window to recant and come back in time, I support this step.

I think LIV now needs to assume that the main players are all pretty well aligned and are taking a hard line (at least to begin with), and they should not expect co-operation on OWGR either.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



Click here - a well known Golf magazine reporting LIV players may be kicked out of all 4 majors next year. Interesting.

Providing they are offered a window to recant and come back in time, I support this step.

I think LIV now needs to assume that the main players are all pretty well aligned and are taking a hard line (at least to begin with), and they should not expect co-operation on OWGR either.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I do.  If the 4 majors are run as separate entities from the tours and those that have joined the LIV Tour still meet the qualification criteria then that smacks of a bit of tit-for-tat rather than directly protecting the other tours' interests.

But please do not construe that as being supportive of the LIV Tour.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not sure I do.  If the 4 majors are run as separate entities from the tours and those that have joined the LIV Tour still meet the qualification criteria then that smacks of a bit of tit-for-tat rather than directly protecting the other tours' interests.

But please do not construe that as being supportive of the LIV Tour.
		
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This is not surprising after Martin Slumbers' comments the other day, though. 

The other Tours and majors that form the OWGR have basically two choices, the hard line screw them approach or the let's work together approach. Seems like Greg hasn't quite got past his initial triumphalism stage yet, so the second option is probably premature, at the least. 

If the other Tours take a hard line, then I think they should offer an amnesty for LIV players.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



			This is not surprising after Martin Slumbers' comments the other day, though.

The other Tours and majors that form the OWGR have basically two choices, the hard line screw them approach or the let's work together approach. Seems like Greg hasn't quite got past his initial triumphalism stage yet, so the second option is probably premature, at the least.

If the other Tours take a hard line, then I think they should offer an amnesty for LIV players.
		
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No, not surprising, but not a direct threat to the other tours either for me; I would see allowing them to compete in the Majors as the most amount of compromise the other Tours should offer LIV.

I'd agree that if they do look to ban them all then there should be some sort of route back.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, not surprising, but not a direct threat to the other tours either for me; I would see allowing them to compete in the Majors as the most amount of compromise the other Tours should offer LIV.

I'd agree that if they do look to ban them all then there seems to be some sort of route back.
		
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But it is not really in the gift of the Tours to let them back, it is Augusta National, R&A etc. The LIV guys would settle for OWGR points for their events (feudal strength might be an issue, though), the majors and a very limited number of invites to top events, e.g. Scottish week before Open, Players etc. They don't give a toss about the John Deere Classic or the Dutch Open.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



			But it is not really in the gift of the Tours to let them back, it is Augusta National, R&A etc. The LIV guys would settle for OWGR points for their events (feudal strength might be an issue, though), the majors and a very limited number of invites to top events, e.g. Scottish week before Open, Players etc. They don't give a toss about the John Deere Classic or the Dutch Open.
		
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Well it is within their gift if they don't introduce a rule change that bans them.

"It is now understood that an avenue being explored is to exclude anyone who is suspended from one of golf's traditional tours from featuring in future editions of the game's oldest championship."


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## BrianM (Jul 14, 2022)

Surely the Majors would be de-valued then?
We need the best players playing regardless of the tour they play on?


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Surely the Majors would be de-valued then?
We need the best players playing regardless of the tour they play on?
		
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Once the plummet down the OWGR, they won't be the best players, though. 



Blue in Munich said:



			Well it is within their gift if they don't introduce a rule change that bans them.

"It is now understood that an avenue being explored is to exclude anyone who is suspended from one of golf's traditional tours from featuring in future editions of the game's oldest championship."
		
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That is an indication that the majors and Tours are solid, then. Maybe it is just easier if binary.

One other aspect is that whilst the LIV players could win an anti-trust lawsuit against the PGA Tour if they choose a nice Trump-appointed judge, they won't win one against the major organisers who have a lot more autonomy.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 14, 2022)

The impact of LIV will really be felt down the line, when the top players who joined LIV tumble down the world rankings. The big players still currently fulfil the qualifying criteria, so not feeling the true consequences just yet. When they no longer qualify for Majors or WGCs, then it will be interesting to see the fallout. However, if the top players on the PGA Tour have now settled in to maintaining the support, and LIV have tempted just about as many as the big players they can, then it could be that fans will just happily forget about the likes of Bryson and Brooks as serious golfers, treat them a little more like exhibition celebrity golfers. Maybe every now and then, LIV will attract new players who are basically pre Seniors Tour, out of form PGA Tour players who have resigned to not getting their top form back, or young players who want the easy money rather than compete in the Majors against the best.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The impact of LIV will really be felt down the line, when the top players who joined LIV tumble down the world rankings. The big players still currently fulfil the qualifying criteria, so not feeling the true consequences just yet. When they no longer qualify for Majors or WGCs, then it will be interesting to see the fallout. However, if the top players on the PGA Tour have now settled in to maintaining the support, and LIV have tempted just about as many as the big players they can, then *it could be that fans will just happily forget about the likes of Bryson and Brooks as serious golfers,* treat them a little more like exhibition celebrity golfers. Maybe every now and then, LIV will attract new players who are basically pre Seniors Tour, out of form PGA Tour players who have resigned to not getting their top form back, or young players who want the easy money rather than compete in the Majors against the best.
		
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Some definitely already have.


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## BrianM (Jul 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Once the plummet down the OWGR, they won't be the best players, though.

Just because the golfing gods don't allow them to be included in the world rankings, doesn't mean they aren't some off the best players in the world.
You can't tell me a Major is not de-valued by not including all the best players?
		
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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I've clicked the link and watched the video - and Martin Slumbers has said golf particiaption is up because of Covid, and we need to keep those people involved....

That's it!!

As for the Sky Coverage of The Open,* there was nothing better than watching it on the beeb, and it should have remained that way.* They just took the money - the very same thing that the LIV players are castigated for.
		
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you are joking, aren't you?
Compared with Sky?
I think Sky put more into it, cameras, presenters etc.
Also,
Sky have a dedicated channel. If the event goes on longer than scheduled then Sky stick with it.
BBC would tell you something like .." unfortunately......etc "
And it would be highlights later, or change of channel.
Either way, recording it and you're sunk.

It's still the same with them - witness the last Wimbledon.


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## BrianM (Jul 14, 2022)

Koepka is the best player to par since 2017 at Majors, so he wouldn't be a loss....


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Just because the golfing gods don't allow them to be included in the world rankings, doesn't mean they aren't some off the best players in the world.
You can't tell me a Major is not de-valued by not including all the best players?
		
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Well, I was kinda joking, but there is a serious point beneath. The OWGR has been self reinforcing the other way, the best players strengthen fields by entering, therefore get more OWGR points, and consolidate their positions. Most of the top names in LIV (DJ, Koepka, BdC, Phil Mick) have been falling down the OWGR.

The end of 2021 compared to most recent OWGR are:

DJ: 3 to 18
Koepka: 16 to 20
Bryson: 5 to 33
Mickelson: 33 to 92

Only Koepka is maintaining their position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 14, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Koepka is the best player to par since 2017 at Majors, so he wouldn't be a loss....
		
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Depends on which Koepka it is - the one who was dominant for 2 years from 2017-2019 in the Majors or the one who is happy with his lot and just doesn’t really care


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## Backsticks (Jul 14, 2022)

Does anyone know what the teams are for the Open? The individual competition is OK-ish, but its following the teams that really makes golf worth watching.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			you are joking, aren't you?
Compared with Sky?
I think Sky put more into it, cameras, presenters etc.
Also,
Sky have a dedicated channel. If the event goes on longer than scheduled then Sky stick with it.
BBC would tell you something like .." unfortunately......etc "
And it would be highlights later, or change of channel.
Either way, recording it and you're sunk.

It's still the same with them - witness the last Wimbledon.
		
Click to expand...

i agree. Sky provides better coverage. The off course stuff, interacting with the gallery and The Open Zone are all pretty good. The on course coverage is pretty good too.


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## RRidges (Jul 14, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Koepka is the best player to par since 2017 at Majors, so he wouldn't be a loss....
		
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Currently at 77th, tied with John Daly et al and behind 3 amateurs.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 14, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Currently at 77th, tied with John Daly et al and behind 3 amateurs.
		
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Tiger made an interesting point about LIV. If players can just turn up and are guaranteed money, why practice? Or at least, why put as much effort into practice? If these LIV players no longer feel they need to battle it out with the best in the world to maintain there standing keep a strong PGA Tour Card, it could be very easy for them to take their eye off the ball. 

Simply put, will LIV make them better golfers, no difference, or worse? For me, my bet is it will, in general, make them worse.


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## AussieKB (Jul 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Does anyone know what the teams are for the Open? The individual competition is OK-ish, but its following the teams that really makes golf worth watching.
		
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Is that like watching the Ryder Cup without some of the best players ?


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## sunshine (Jul 15, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well Im in this exact bracket - 28 to be exact - and Im not anti LIV - enjoyed watching it live and even took non golfer mates who enjoyed the experience of drinking, eating good food and watching some pros whack a ball around a nice course. Were not talking about playing golf, were talking about increasing the marketability of the golfing game in different formats, which in turn may increase participation in the long term too.
		
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But what you have described above is exactly the same as any European tour event in the UK. 54 holes v 72 holes, it’s virtually the same product.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Tiger made an interesting point about LIV. If players can just turn up and are guaranteed money, why practice? Or at least, why put as much effort into practice? If these LIV players no longer feel they need to battle it out with the best in the world to maintain there standing keep a strong PGA Tour Card, it could be very easy for them to take their eye off the ball.

Simply put, will LIV make them better golfers, no difference, or worse? For me, my bet is it will, in general, make them worse.
		
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Did Tiger not practice when he was getting appearance money at tournaments? Did he not practice after signing his Nike contracts? What about when he reached his first $100m, second $100m, $500m? 

We also keep being told, prior to LIV, that money is irrelevant to these guys, it's all about winning. Why does this stop for LIV players? Do PGA players want to win more than LIV players or actually are they just the same?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did Tiger not practice when he was getting appearance money at tournaments? Did he not practice after signing his Nike contracts? What about when he reached his first $100m, second $100m, $500m? 

We also keep being told, prior to LIV, that money is irrelevant to these guys, it's all about winning. Why does this stop for LIV players? Do PGA players want to win more than LIV players or actually are they just the same?
		
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Of course he did, because his bread and butter was still the PGA Tour. That was what was giving him the fame, winning majors and being world number 1. If he just eased off on practicing as soon as he was offered any appearance money (which was a shadow of the LIV guys btw), then he'd struggle to sustain that legendary status when he was in his prime.

The LIV appear that they won't be fighting to become world number 1, given they get no ranking points. They won't be fighting to make cuts and and keep their place on LIV. Not the best players like Bryson or Brooks anyway, their game has pretty much solidified their positions on LIV for many years to come, if it goes on that long. And all the money that comes with it.


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## AussieKB (Jul 15, 2022)

If it's not about money why did the R&A increase this year by 22% and the winner get an extra 300 thousand pound ? also the PGA are increasing the prize money ?

I agree, they want the trophy but don't try and tell me money does not play a part.


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## Golfnut1957 (Jul 15, 2022)

Oh the hypocrisy! Joe Biden is off to see the Saudi Crown Prince today, begging bowl in hand. I wonder if the PGA Tour will ban him and the majors bar him?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did Tiger not practice when he was getting appearance money at tournaments? Did he not practice after signing his Nike contracts? What about when he reached his first $100m, second $100m, $500m?

We also keep being told, prior to LIV, that money is irrelevant to these guys, it's all about winning. Why does this stop for LIV players? Do PGA players want to win more than LIV players or actually are they just the same?
		
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I don’t think anyone has said money is “irrelevant” 

Surely you can see the difference between someone “earning” on the golf course and having to practise constantly to ensure they earned the money 

To people just being given the money for being there 

If Woods etc didn’t perform on the tour they wouldn’t earn millions 

Mickleson and Co can just turn up and be given £100s of millions regardless of how they perform - on top of their endorsements they used to get 

If it doesn’t matter how a player performs then why would they bother to focus on winning 🤷‍♂️ - just look at the way Perez celebrated getting a couple of million even playing horrific 



Golfnut1957 said:



			Oh the hypocrisy! Joe Biden is off to see the Saudi Crown Prince today, begging bowl in hand. I wonder if the PGA Tour will ban him and the majors bar him?
		
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How is that relevant 🤷‍♂️ I’m not aware that the us government sponsers the PGA Tour


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## evemccc (Jul 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think anyone has said money is “irrelevant”

*Surely you can see the difference between someone “earning” on the golf course and having to practise constantly to ensure they earned the money

To people just being given the money for being there

If Woods etc didn’t perform on the tour they wouldn’t earn millions*

Mickleson and Co can just turn up and be given £100s of millions regardless of how they perform - on top of their endorsements they used to get

If it doesn’t matter how a player performs then why would they bother to focus on winning 🤷‍♂️ - just look at the way Perez celebrated getting a couple of million even playing horrific



How is that relevant 🤷‍♂️ I’m not aware that the us government sponsers the PGA Tour
		
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Pretty sure that’s exactly what the PGA Tour instigated with the PIP..

That’s what the golf media establishment and quasi-establishment NLU gushed over - “the top players are underpaid…isn’t it funny that Tiger ‘won’ the PIP despite not even playing ANY pro-golf”

etc. etc. etc.


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Currently at 77th, tied with John Daly et al and behind 3 amateurs.
		
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What’s your point, that’s like me saying everyone ahead of tiger right now is better than him, start thinking about what your saying before giving a 20 second answer that means nothing, I gave you a factual statistic on Brooks, nothing else.
My opinion won’t change that the Majors will be devalued if all the best players aren’t playing.


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## IainP (Jul 15, 2022)

What am I missing here?

If the argument is the players are obsessed with money - last place $120,000 , first place $4,000,000   (Portland)
Are people suggesting professional players won't try to play well?

Does this apply to other sports also?
#confused


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course he did, because his bread and butter was still the PGA Tour. That was what was giving him the fame, winning majors and being world number 1. If he just eased off on practicing as soon as he was offered any appearance money (which was a shadow of the LIV guys btw), then he'd struggle to sustain that legendary status when he was in his prime.

The LIV appear that they won't be fighting to become world number 1, given they get no ranking points. They won't be fighting to make cuts and and keep their place on LIV. Not the best players like Bryson or Brooks anyway, their game has pretty much solidified their positions on LIV for many years to come, if it goes on that long. And all the money that comes with it.
		
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Tiger was earning way more in sponsorship than on the PGA but he didn't ease up. His drive to win took over. If that exists for him why assume it doesn't for others? Do they not have professional pride as well?

That LIV players may not get ranking points in down to the governing body, not the players. I suspect the players expected ranking points to come, that would then qualify them for the majors, apart from the PGA presumably.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Pretty sure that’s exactly what the PGA Tour instigated with the PIP..

That’s what the golf media establishment and quasi-establishment NLU gushed over - “the top players are underpaid…isn’t it funny that Tiger ‘won’ the PIP despite not even playing ANY pro-golf”

etc. etc. etc.
		
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The same PIP that’s been heavily criticised across the world of golf , the same PIP that Mickleson was one of the instigators to get more money in his pocket , the same PIP money that generated by the Tour

so whilst it’s not great is it the same as someone being given £200mil to just turn up  which was the initial point in regards players not bothering to test themselves when they are being given huge sums of money



IainP said:



			What am I missing here?

If the argument is the players are obsessed with money - last place $120,000 , first place $4,000,000   (Portland)
Are people suggesting professional players won't try to play well?

Does this apply to other sports also?
#confused
		
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It’s always hard to try and compare with other sports - many other sports the players etc are employed by team etc to provide a service

And in regards the money for places - I think more to do with the fact some are getting more than just the prize money , the likes of BDC , DJ getting over £100mil for just being there - as opposed to get £100mil for winning

And of course there is the issue of where that money is coming from


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			What am I missing here?

If the argument is the players are obsessed with money - last place $120,000 , first place $4,000,000   (Portland)
Are people suggesting professional players won't try to play well?

Does this apply to other sports also?
#confused
		
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It's equivalent to saying that Messi coasted after signing each contract. Did you see Messi's deal at Barcelona? Why work hard when you are guaranteed that much money for 4-5 years at a time. The argument is nonsense and so narrow focused. It's classic LIV = bad. Some parts are poor, but not all.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tiger was earning way more in sponsorship than on the PGA but he didn't ease up. His drive to win took over. If that exists for him why assume it doesn't for others? Do they not have professional pride as well?

That LIV players may not get ranking points in down to the governing body, not the players. I suspect the players expected ranking points to come, that would then qualify them for the majors, apart from the PGA presumably.
		
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Firstly, I didn't say every single player on LIV would lose 100% of their drive to practice. It was a general statement. Tiger Woods is one of the most golf obsessed, driven people the sport has ever had. So, trying to compare every player to him is a little futile. However, his drive was clearly to do with being the best, being World Number 1, winning Majors and winning the biggest events in golf. And, he achieved this. And, it was because of all this that all that prize money and sponsorship money came his way. He practiced because he had a drive to continue to be the best. 

Then I look at the likes of DJ, Brooks and DeChambeau. All fantastic players, and undoubtedly they have practiced hard to become that good since they were kids. Since joining LIV, I'm sure they will not stop practicing completely. And, maybe they'll continue to practice as much as they had. Maybe, but I cannot see them practicing more. What is the NEW motivation to do so? They already have huge amounts of money, and are guaranteed in making very good money over the next number of years. They have no risk of losing their LIV Tour Card. If they don't get world rankings points, they've no motivation to become the World Number 1. If the PGA Tour do not let them on their events, they will soon have no motivation to do well in those events to keep a PGA Tour Card. And, if there comes a point where they fail to qualify for Majors due to no presence in the World Rankings, then that motivation goes.

So, I see plenty of reasons why the motivation to practice hard will decline for the better players on LIV. Not many reasons for it to improve. Given the worst players on LIV are little better than the guy who wins the gross prize in your club monthly medal, even if they are not winning LIV events every week, they will continue to rake in good money. I think DJ has pretty much conceded that he joined LIV as he doesn't want to dedicate as much time to golf as he had been. I can imagine Brooks could be the same, he can barely motivate himself to string a sentence together let alone practice for 8 hours a day.

Not saying these players will decline in ability overnight. Maybe they won't. But my hypothesis is that, over time, these big players on LIV will start to struggle more and more when up against the guys on the PGA Tour. That is, if the ship has steadied itself, and the exodus to LIV does not continue.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Firstly, I didn't say every single player on LIV would lose 100% of their drive to practice. It was a general statement.* Tiger Woods is one of the most golf obsessed, driven people the sport has ever had. So, trying to compare every player to him is a little futile. However, his drive was clearly to do with being the best, being World Number 1, winning Majors and winning the biggest events in golf. And, he achieved this. And, it was because of all this that all that prize money and sponsorship money came his way. He practiced because he had a drive to continue to be the best.

Then I look at the likes of DJ, Brooks and DeChambeau. All fantastic players, and undoubtedly they have practiced hard to become that good since they were kids. Since joining LIV, I'm sure they will not stop practicing completely. And, maybe they'll continue to practice as much as they had. Maybe, but I cannot see them practicing more. What is the NEW motivation to do so? They already have huge amounts of money, and are guaranteed in making very good money over the next number of years. They have no risk of losing their LIV Tour Card. If they don't get world rankings points, they've no motivation to become the World Number 1. If the PGA Tour do not let them on their events, they will soon have no motivation to do well in those events to keep a PGA Tour Card. And, if there comes a point where they fail to qualify for Majors due to no presence in the World Rankings, then that motivation goes.

So, I see plenty of reasons why the motivation to practice hard will decline for the better players on LIV. Not many reasons for it to improve. Given the worst players on LIV are little better than the guy who wins the gross prize in your club monthly medal, even if they are not winning LIV events every week, they will continue to rake in good money. I think DJ has pretty much conceded that he joined LIV as he doesn't want to dedicate as much time to golf as he had been. I can imagine Brooks could be the same, he can barely motivate himself to string a sentence together let alone practice for 8 hours a day.

Not saying these players will decline in ability overnight. Maybe they won't. But my hypothesis is that, over time, these big players on LIV will start to struggle more and more when up against the guys on the PGA Tour. That is, if the ship has steadied itself, and the exodus to LIV does not continue.
		
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I took the comment that way, apologies if my reply seemed otherwise, but I think the point still stands. I quoted Tiger as he was the one who made the comment. It could be applied to any of the top players though. Once you have made it big on the PGA tour, get exemptions, get the big sponsors, you are financially made. Yes the LIV money is clearly big, but so is the money the top guys make already. There is nothing new there. Some may lose motivation but then so will PGA players who have pocketed millions. I don't see the difference.


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## GB72 (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Firstly, I didn't say every single player on LIV would lose 100% of their drive to practice. It was a general statement. Tiger Woods is one of the most golf obsessed, driven people the sport has ever had. So, trying to compare every player to him is a little futile. However, his drive was clearly to do with being the best, being World Number 1, winning Majors and winning the biggest events in golf. And, he achieved this. And, it was because of all this that all that prize money and sponsorship money came his way. He practiced because he had a drive to continue to be the best.

Then I look at the likes of DJ, Brooks and DeChambeau. All fantastic players, and undoubtedly they have practiced hard to become that good since they were kids. Since joining LIV, I'm sure they will not stop practicing completely. And, maybe they'll continue to practice as much as they had. Maybe, but I cannot see them practicing more. What is the NEW motivation to do so? They already have huge amounts of money, and are guaranteed in making very good money over the next number of years. They have no risk of losing their LIV Tour Card. If they don't get world rankings points, they've no motivation to become the World Number 1. If the PGA Tour do not let them on their events, they will soon have no motivation to do well in those events to keep a PGA Tour Card. And, if there comes a point where they fail to qualify for Majors due to no presence in the World Rankings, then that motivation goes.

So, I see plenty of reasons why the motivation to practice hard will decline for the better players on LIV. Not many reasons for it to improve. Given the worst players on LIV are little better than the guy who wins the gross prize in your club monthly medal, even if they are not winning LIV events every week, they will continue to rake in good money. I think DJ has pretty much conceded that he joined LIV as he doesn't want to dedicate as much time to golf as he had been. I can imagine Brooks could be the same, he can barely motivate himself to string a sentence together let alone practice for 8 hours a day.

Not saying these players will decline in ability overnight. Maybe they won't. But my hypothesis is that, over time, these big players on LIV will start to struggle more and more when up against the guys on the PGA Tour. That is, if the ship has steadied itself, and the exodus to LIV does not continue.
		
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I suppose that you could look at it another way and compare it to the Williams sisters in tennis. They just focused on the Grand Slam events and so only wanted to play enough tennis to ensure that their rankings stayed high enough and they qualified each year. They had no interest in playing in what were probably seen as no name tour events, they had already earned enough as so the Grand Slams were all that they cared about. Perhaps some of the higher ranked golfers (whether selfishly or not in the greater interests of golf and the tour) do not want to be playing the, shall we say, lesser known events or the number of events that they are obligated to. They just want enough events at the right time to peak for the majors. Not at all saying that this is the case but you know me, like to put in a contray point every now and again, and perhaps that is a reason. Same with those of more advancing years, the opportunity to pick and choose how many events you play in a year could be seen as a beneifit. 

I am not doubting that money plays a huge part but there could be other reasons (OK if LIV tour members are banned or cannot qualify for majors then that either backfired badly or eradicates my argument) and, perhaps, some of the bigger names feel that they are being used to prop up small or meaningless events as their presence ensures better sponsorship/


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I suppose that you could look at it another way and compare it to the Williams sisters in tennis. They just focused on the Grand Slam events and so only wanted to play enough tennis to ensure that their rankings stayed high enough and they qualified each year. They had no interest in playing in what were probably seen as no name tour events, they had already earned enough as so the Grand Slams were all that they cared about. Perhaps some of the higher ranked golfers (whether selfishly or not in the greater interests of golf and the tour) do not want to be playing the, shall we say, lesser known events or the number of events that they are obligated to. They just want enough events at the right time to peak for the majors. Not at all saying that this is the case but you know me, like to put in a contray point every now and again, and perhaps that is a reason. Same with those of more advancing years, the opportunity to pick and choose how many events you play in a year could be seen as a beneifit.

I am not doubting that money plays a huge part but there could be other reasons (OK if LIV tour members are banned or cannot qualify for majors then that either backfired badly or eradicates my argument) and, perhaps, some of the bigger names feel that they are being used to prop up small or meaningless events as their presence ensures better sponsorship/
		
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No issue with the best players wanting to pick and choose events to play in the most prestigious ones. However, by doing that they better make sure they continue to be much better than their peers, and practice hard. Otherwise, if their performances dipped and they were just playing a reduced schedule, they will start to struggle to qualify for the big ones.

That is the thing with LIV. If they are not getting world ranking points, then they are going to start to struggle to qualify for those big events in the coming years. They do not appear to be allowed on the PGA Tour. So, they are essentially playing on a tour that has zero qualification criteria, compared to playing on a tour that required players to fulfil certain criteria to keep their card. The best players may well have made a fortune on the PGA Tour, but they knew they had to continue to play to a high standard if they wanted to continue earning that money and get those sponsorship deals. Those basic motivations are less relevant now for players on LIV, where the best players have already been handed over in excess of $100 million, and are guaranteed millions in the coming years. Not saying they'll have zero motivation. Maybe Bryson will be motivated to become the best LIV player, but it all just feels a bit worthless at the moment. They are just random events with a random bunch of players earning big money.

I've never had an issue with players taking the money, that is their decision. And, no issue with them trying to see the positive side of it, there will be some from their point of view (outside the money). But, it just seems LIV players will have less reasons to put in the intense practice that another player does, a player that is trying to become the worlds best and win Majors (or even just put in that practice to get a chance to play in each Major, for those up and coming players, or older players who still want to get into the Majors)


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## sunshine (Jul 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As for the Sky Coverage of The Open, there was nothing better than watching it on the beeb, and it should have remained that way. They just took the money - the very same thing that the LIV players are castigated for.
		
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Sorry but that’s just inaccurate as usual. The bbc has no interest in golf, it’s a shame but it doesn’t fit their agenda, and the coverage was slipping way behind other tournaments. 
The R&A only had one credible provider ready to step in and deliver the world class coverage that a premier event like the Open merits. You can’t blame the R&A when effectively the bbc pulled out.


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## IanM (Jul 15, 2022)

Bbc coverage of golf was awful at the end.  Even Wimbledon this year got silly as the match you were watching hopped between bbc1 and 2 and iPlayer


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## sunshine (Jul 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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This is up there as contender for dumbest post of the year 🤣

Has anyone ever bought something because of advertising?  🤦‍♂️


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## sunshine (Jul 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What have the R&A done to grow the game then, realistically?


What changes are they making that take it to new audiences, and get non golfers interested?
		
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This post sums up the thread. 

Deflect, deflect, deflect. Ask the question about the PGA or R&A or anyone else. Then Phil (and others) rise to the question. Until the next issue with Liv and we get a new round of deflection


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## Beezerk (Jul 15, 2022)

sunshine said:



			This is up there as contender for dumbest post of the year 🤣

Has anyone ever bought something because of advertising?  🤦‍♂️
		
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Are you not just playing the poster there? You're completely twisting his words just to have a go at him from what I can see 👀


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## AussieKB (Jul 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Are you not just playing the poster there? You're completely twisting his words just to have a go at him from what I can see 👀
		
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Thanks, but it does not change what you say for some people, they will always change the narrative to fit their view.


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

This argument where they won’t care is absolute nonsense, they are elite sportsmen, they are all pretty much rich as it is, there mindset is to go out and win every week, they will carry on doing what they do.
But golf is one of that sports where if you have one bad round you are out of contention, it doesn’t make you a bad player.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			This argument where they won’t care is absolute nonsense, they are elite sportsmen, they are all pretty much rich as it is, there mindset is to go out and win every week, they will carry on doing what they do.
But golf is one of that sports where if you have one bad round you are out of contention, it doesn’t make you a bad player.
		
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Do you think they care about winning the Portland or the Memorial ? 

The London Invite or the PGA at Wentworth ? 

When they tee off they will no doubt try and win but inbetween the events do you think they will be practicing every day ? Like you see most tour pros do ? 

Do you think because they already have the big cheque in their pocket they will spend hours on the practise ground trying to hone their game ? 

On the tour the players need to win comps to keep their career going , they need ranking points for entry into big events , they need to be constantly grinding away because if they don’t and form drops they won’t be getting paid - that’s not the same with the LIV tour - it is totally irrelevant how they perform , it doesn’t matter because they have been given more money than most will ever earn in Prize money 

Mickleson is a combined 20 over in the two events so far - he still has a huge amount of money from it though - can you not see how that would affect people when the motivation to win is reduced


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## IainP (Jul 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think they care about winning the Portland or the Memorial ?

The London Invite or the PGA at Wentworth ?

When they tee off they will no doubt try and win but inbetween the events do you think they will be practicing every day ? Like you see most tour pros do ?

Do you think because they already have the big cheque in their pocket they will spend hours on the practise ground trying to hone their game ?

On the tour the players need to win comps to keep their career going , they need ranking points for entry into big events , they need to be constantly grinding away because if they don’t and form drops they won’t be getting paid - that’s not the same with the LIV tour - it is totally irrelevant how they perform , it doesn’t matter because they have been given more money than most will ever earn in Prize money

Mickleson is a combined 20 over in the two events so far - he still has a huge amount of money from it though - can you not see how that would affect people when the motivation to win is reduced
		
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Phil, I can follow that specifically for Mickleson - I suspect he was involved in this for many months before it actually happened. But you seem to be applying it to every player involved - I just can't see that for everyone.
For example, I posted may pages ago a statement from Justin Harding - he is in a very different position to Mickleson - would you acknowledge that?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			This argument where they won’t care is absolute nonsense, they are elite sportsmen, they are all pretty much rich as it is, there mindset is to go out and win every week, they will carry on doing what they do.
But golf is one of that sports where if you have one bad round you are out of contention, it doesn’t make you a bad player.
		
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I don't think anybody is saying they don't want to win, or won't try to win.

Not every elite sportsman, whatever the sport, has the exact same attitude to practice. Some practice like there is no tomorrow, others not so much. The ones who do not practice so much will get so far with raw talent, which might be fine if they are particularly gifted. Sometimes sportspeople get a new drive, practice harder and can bring success. Other times, their focus drifts, they take their eye of the ball and their performances decline. Often, they are not necessarily actively deciding to practice less. It is just other things get in the way, they lose a bit of will power, etc. 

I am absolutely sure that every LIV player will want to win every event they ever play. But, if this extra time off allows them to pursue other personal and business interests whilst not worrying about keeping their LIV Tour Card, then it is easy to see how they will certainly not "carry on doing what they do". One of the big reasons many admit to joining LIV is that the money and extra time off allow them to change the way they live their lives. I haven't heard any interviews, but I'm pretty sure few or none have said it will allow them to practice more?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Phil, I can follow that specifically for Mickleson - I suspect he was involved in this for many months before it actually happened. But you seem to be applying it to every player involved - I just can't see that for everyone.
For example, I posted may pages ago a statement from Justin Harding - he is in a very different position to Mickleson - would you acknowledge that?
		
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It will all be money based though

Doesn’t matter where Harding finishes he will earn more in a year than he ever does.

Coming last gives them £120k - even coming last in each event will earn them a cool million , more than he ever earned during their career 

That’s why the players like Harding etc are going - they won’t earn that level of money on the main tours or majors - he could play like a weekend hacker for a couple of years and be set for life 

He will no doubt try and win or play as well as he can but this tour will set people financially for life without doing the goods on the course


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think anybody is saying they don't want to win, or won't try to win.

Not every elite sportsman, whatever the sport, has the exact same attitude to practice. Some practice like there is no tomorrow, others not so much. The ones who do not practice so much will get so far with raw talent, which might be fine if they are particularly gifted. Sometimes sportspeople get a new drive, practice harder and can bring success. Other times, their focus drifts, they take their eye of the ball and their performances decline. Often, they are not necessarily actively deciding to practice less. It is just other things get in the way, they lose a bit of will power, etc. 

I am absolutely sure that every LIV player will want to win every event they ever play. But, if this extra time off allows them to pursue other personal and business interests whilst not worrying about keeping their LIV Tour Card, then it is easy to see how they will certainly not "carry on doing what they do". One of the big reasons many admit to joining LIV is that the money and extra time off allow them to change the way they live their lives. I haven't heard any interviews, but I'm pretty sure few or none have said it will allow them to practice more?
		
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I don’t think they will change the way they approach things, they’ll keep on doing what they do, that’s my approach though, unless we ask every player we will truly never know.
I think it’s clutching at straws to think otherwise.


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## IainP (Jul 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't think anybody is saying they don't want to win, or won't try to win.

Not every elite sportsman, whatever the sport, has the exact same attitude to practice. Some practice like there is no tomorrow, others not so much. The ones who do not practice so much will get so far with raw talent, which might be fine if they are particularly gifted. Sometimes sportspeople get a new drive, practice harder and can bring success. Other times, their focus drifts, they take their eye of the ball and their performances decline. Often, they are not necessarily actively deciding to practice less. It is just other things get in the way, they lose a bit of will power, etc.

I am absolutely sure that every LIV player will want to win every event they ever play. But, if this extra time off allows them to pursue other personal and business interests whilst not worrying about keeping their LIV Tour Card, then it is easy to see how they will certainly not "carry on doing what they do". One of the big reasons many admit to joining LIV is that the money and extra time off allow them to change the way they live their lives. I haven't heard any interviews, but I'm pretty sure few or none have said it will allow them to practice more?
		
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Fair post. Suspect it may come down to individuals. Bryson strikes me as the type that if he played one comp a year would still spend many hours on the sim.
Is all speculation but maybe dropping children at school,  practicing until collecting them, for a few days might be more productive than jumping on the jet for the next pre comp pro-am. Who knows, is a world I'm not familiar with 😁


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 15, 2022)

Even without MS you lot seem to be having a decent argument about it
Jeez


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## evemccc (Jul 15, 2022)

I would love it if Dustin Johnson won the Open…partly because I like him as a player and his talent ‘should’ have won more than 2 majors….

But I would also love it for the Lolz on this thread and in the media 😁


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 15, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Even without MS you lot seem to be having a decent argument about it
Jeez
		
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Can I argue with that point Your Fraggerness? 😁.  The recent posts are much more reasonable, with posters actually acknowledging the other’s view, rather than the deflection and finger pointing that has largely populated the thread when MS is about.


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## Beezerk (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I would love it if Dustin Johnson won the Open…partly because I like him as a player and his talent ‘should’ have won more than 2 majors….

But I would also love it for the Lolz on this thread and in the media 😁
		
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Specially as he was being labelled as past it a few pages ago 🤭


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I would love it if Dustin Johnson won the Open…partly because I like him as a player and his talent ‘should’ have won more than 2 majors….

But I would also love it for the Lolz on this thread and in the media 😁
		
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It shouldn’t and won’t make any difference to peoples opinions - DJ was always the player that people highlighted as still being at the top of the game as he has shown over the years in any event - he will contend in any major he plays because he is that good

The results in The Open this week won’t have any bearing on what people think of the LIV Tour - just as if DJ didn’t win and someone from the other tours won - it wouldn’t be a endorsement of those tours - the major and even more so the Open transcends all the tours - hence why any player should be able to qualify ( certainly not banned )


Beezerk said:



			Specially as he was being labelled as past it a few pages ago 🤭
		
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I’m not sure if anyone has labelled DJ specifically a has been ?


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Has anyone ever gone out and bought something because a golfer was advertising something on his shirt ?
I know I haven't, but hey I am sure there must be people out there who do.
		
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Advertisers love people who think advertising doesn't work.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Specially as he was being labelled as past it a few pages ago 🤭
		
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He was 1st or 2nd starting every event he played in 2021. and finished the year at 3rd. Now he is 18th. 

In 2022, played 11 events, 3 top 10s, 3 MC, the best of the rest 12th at The Masters. 

Not a player in form by any reasonable consideration. Doesn't mean he is past it, but the move to LIV Golf seems to make sense. Maybe he has lost his mojo or Paulina has told him to stay at home more.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I would love it if Dustin Johnson won the Open…partly because I like him as a player and his talent ‘should’ have won more than 2 majors….

But I would also love it for the Lolz on this thread and in the media 😁
		
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Maybe that was what attracted him to LIV Golf, led by an underachiever who should have won more than 2 majors.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 15, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Oh the hypocrisy! Joe Biden is off to see the Saudi Crown Prince today, begging bowl in hand. I wonder if the PGA Tour will ban him and the majors bar him?
		
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You can see the difference between world politics and individual decisions made by already very wealthy golfers? Right?


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Maybe that was what attracted him to LIV Golf, led by an underachiever who should have won more than 2 majors.
		
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So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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I’m sure they would but I think the underachieving/overachieving comments are relative to ability. 

There’s an argument that Paul Lawrie overachieved in winning one Major as did Andy North in winning his US Opens. Similarly that Greg Norman underachieved in the number of Majors won relative to his talent.  That is not meant in any way disrespectfully to the players named, merely a comment on what they might have been expected to achieve relative to their perceived talent.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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It’s all relative. So I’d agree that Norman has with only 2 majors.

I would consider Tiger to have underachieved despite all he has won.


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## evemccc (Jul 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Maybe that was what attracted him to LIV Golf, led by an underachiever who should have won more than 2 majors.
		
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Just glad that it’s now acknowledged that Rory has clearly underachieved in the past 8 years….with zero majors


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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For his level of ability and the amount of times he has been in position to win majors then 2 would be the lowest number you would expected him to win - his game is perfect for major wins , he seemed to find a way to play his way out of them

There are prob others that you would say could be in rbe same position where their ability never matched the amount of majors they won



evemccc said:



			Just glad that it’s now acknowledged that Rory has clearly underachieved in the past 8 years….with zero majors
		
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That’s been discussed many times - yes he has under achieved in regards majors over the last 8 years


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## Swango1980 (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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If Rory McIlroy had ended his career with just 2 Majors then it is safe to say he underachieved. If he finishes with 4, I think most would say he underachieved. If Tiger Woods had only ever won 2 Majors, or Jack Nicklaus, they'd have underachieved by monumental proportions. Conversely, I've won 2 club championships, but no Majors, and I have still over-achieved.

So, it is all relative to the golfer. And subjective. If someone thinks a golfer has underachieved by winning 2 Majors, it is clearly because they recognise that golfer has / had the ability to win more. I agree though, I am sure 99% or more of pro golfers would dream of having just one Major. Not many, I'd imagine, will say Danny Willet or Todd Hamilton have under-achieved. Or that Tommy "2 gloves" Gainey have underachieved for not winning any.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Just glad that it’s now acknowledged that Rory has clearly underachieved in the past 8 years….with zero majors
		
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Still has twice as many as Norman, and more PGA Tour wins in a lot less time. We'll see if he is done winning majors. And choosing the interval specifically to support your spurious argument shows the weakness of it.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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Everyone agrees Norman should have won more, but blew quite a few. Remember the Saturday Slam?


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## Golfnut1957 (Jul 15, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			You can see the difference between world politics and individual decisions made by already very wealthy golfers? Right?
		
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I can honestly say no, I can't. You either ostracise the Saudis or you don't, but you don't pick and choose.

Besides, this has nothing to do with a bloody regime and everything to do with the LIV doing to the PGA Tour what the PGA Tour has done to the ET for years, threaten their very foundations. Hypocrisy at it's finest.


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## RRidges (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What’s your point, that’s like me saying everyone ahead of tiger right now is better than him, start thinking about what your saying before giving a 20 second answer that means nothing, I gave you a factual statistic on Brooks, nothing else.
My opinion won’t change that the Majors will be devalued if all the best players aren’t playing.
		
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Check his recent history then.
US Open 55th; PGA Champs T55th; Masters MC; The Players MC. Something has definitely gone wrong with his golf, compared to others, since 2018 and 2019 when he was ranked #1. Basically, he's no longer one of the best players!


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Everyone agrees Norman should have won more, but blew quite a few. Remember the Saturday Slam?
		
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I’m too young for that 😂😂
I think we can agree that it’s subjective on peoples opinion on what players under or even overachieve.


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Check his recent history then.
US Open 55th; PGA Champs T55th; Masters MC; The Players MC. Something has definitely gone wrong with his golf, compared to others, since 2018 and 2019 when he was ranked #1. Basically, he's no longer one of the best players!
		
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He’s had injury problems but he’s still one of the best.


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## RRidges (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			He’s had injury problems but he’s still one of the best.
		
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Like Tiger then!


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## Backsticks (Jul 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So winning 2 Majors is underachieving now, WOW 😳😳
I bet 99% of players would take just one 👍🏻
		
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You are mixing the absolute and the relative.

Of course 2 majors is fantastic and in the elite of golf. Absolute.
For a world number one, multi major regular tour event winner, contender at a good number of majors, and with the quality of his length and overall game, it seems low. Underachieving compared to expected return on potential. Relative.


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## BrianM (Jul 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			You are mixing the absolute and the relative.

Of course 2 majors is fantastic and in the elite of golf. Absolute.
For a world number one, multi major regular tour event winner, contender at a good number of majors, and with the quality of his length and overall game, it seems low. Underachieving compared to expected return on potential. Relative.
		
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That seems to be this thread all over, it’s all or nothing with some people, surely we can just have a middle ground where there is good, bad and indifferent from all the tours.

On a slightly separate note I was offered a job a few years ago for Saudi Aramaco, I’d like to think if I took it, people wouldn’t think any less of me as a person.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 15, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I can honestly say no, I can't. You either ostracise the Saudis or you don't, but you don't pick and choose.
		
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World leaders make decisions largely due to geopolitical considerations. If a nation needs some Saudi oil, tough decisions have to be made otherwise you might end up with national energy crisis.

That's categorically not the same as a multi millionaire golfer taking Saudi money because he wants even more money and to spend more time at home.




			Besides, this has nothing to do with a bloody regime
		
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For some people it is. But to be fair, the PGA Tour hasn't made much of a deal re: it being Saudi.  They've overwhelmingly concentrated on it being about golf.




			and everything to do with the LIV doing to the PGA Tour what the PGA Tour has done to the ET for years, threaten their very foundations. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
		
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Well you'd have to be very naive to assume the PGA/European Tour would downtools to allow LIV to threaten the status quo.

It's not as if the Saudis have any historical interest in the game, so I'm bemused as to why people seem so keen to entrust the professional game to them.

It seems it's just about different enough and stuffed with so much money to turn gullible heads.

I'm not a massive fan of professional golf and most professional golfers, but better the PGA than the Saudis.


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## evemccc (Jul 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Still has twice as many as Norman, and more PGA Tour wins in a lot less time. *We'll see if he is done winning majors.* And choosing the interval specifically to support your spurious argument shows the weakness of it.
		
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YOU literally called Dustin Johnson an underachiever — you started this talk of people ‘underachieving’ — touché, we’ll also see if DJ is also done with winning majors


It’s now pretty clear that McIlroy won his majors at a historically pretty low point in the game — those challenging him for No. 1 in the world at that time was Luke Donald and Westwood…both with zero wins

And that’s a fact, and clear to anyone who’s not one-eyed about their hero


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			YOU literally called Dustin Johnson an underachiever — you started this talk of people ‘underachieving’ — touché, we’ll also see if DJ is also done with winning majors


*It’s now pretty clear that McIlroy won his majors at a historically pretty low point in the game — those challenging him for No. 1 in the world at that time was Luke Donald and Westwood…both with zero wins*

And that’s a fact, and clear to anyone who’s not one-eyed about their hero
		
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Let’s not get a little bit silly now 

He won 4 majors - and smashed records along the way.  At one stage he was fighting for number 1 with Woods - players like DJ were challenging for Majors , Day , Scott , Fowler . 

It’s not a “fact” it’s an opinion 

right now DJ has half the majors Rory has 

Do you dismiss Woods majors in the same way


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## RRidges (Jul 15, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Besides, this has nothing to do with a bloody regime and everything to do with the LIV doing to the PGA Tour what the PGA Tour has done to the ET for years, threaten their very foundations. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
		
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PGA Tour has never actively threatened ET's existence! Which is what PGA Tour believe LIV is doing.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			YOU literally called Dustin Johnson an underachiever — you started this talk of people ‘underachieving’ — touché, we’ll also see if DJ is also done with winning majors


It’s now pretty clear that McIlroy won his majors at a historically pretty low point in the game — those challenging him for No. 1 in the world at that time was Luke Donald and Westwood…both with zero wins

And that’s a fact, and clear to anyone who’s not one-eyed about their hero
		
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“That’s a fact”. A statement which is always false and usually made by someone who doesn’t know what a fact is. 

DJ has been falling down the rankings lately. McIlroy has been climbing. He has been ahead of DJ in all 3 majors so far in 2022. 

£20 for charity says he continues that run this weekend. OK?


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## evemccc (Jul 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			“That’s a fact”. A statement which is always false and usually made by someone who doesn’t know what a fact is.
		
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👏 really well done 👏


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			👏 really well done 👏
		
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Some people get fact and opinion mixed up. 

Example: DJ has fallen down the OWGR pretty badly this year. Fact. 

Rory won his majors against weak opposition. Opinion.


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## RRidges (Jul 16, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some people get fact and opinion mixed up.

Example: DJ has fallen down the OWGR pretty badly this year. Fact.

Rory won his majors against weak opposition. Opinion.
		
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I would even challenge your supposed fact call!
DJ has fallen from 2nd to 18th this year. Fact
DJ has fallen down the OWGR pretty badly this year. Opinion.


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## Backsticks (Jul 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			It’s now pretty clear that McIlroy won his majors at a historically pretty low point in the game
		
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There is some way out stuff written here at times. I may even push that envelope sometimes myself. But the above must be THE most erroneous post on the whole forum. No big Rory fan here. He is an underachiever for his golf talent. But winning 4 as he did at an early age is very impressive and I would say he beat a stronger field in all of them than any of Jack's 18 majors for example.


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## evemccc (Jul 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			There is some way out stuff written here at times. I may even push that envelope sometimes myself. But the above must be THE most erroneous post on the whole forum. No big Rory fan here. He is an underachiever for his golf talent. But winning 4 as he did at an early age is very impressive and I would say he beat a stronger field in all of them than any of Jack's 18 majors for example.
		
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Disagree —
 I do not think that Luke Donald and Westwood as your two biggest rivals at the peak of the world game, is a historical high point of golf’s history — fine if you think that


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Disagree —
I do not think that Luke Donald and Westwood as your two biggest rivals at the peak of the world game, is a historical high point of golf’s history — fine if you think that
		
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Luke Donald and Lee Westwood weren’t his two biggest rivals during the period when he won his four majors 

Woods , Mickleson , Day , Garcia , Scott , DJ , Louis O , Stenson , Rose.


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## evemccc (Jul 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Luke Donald and Lee Westwood weren’t his two biggest rivals during the period when he won his four majors

Woods , Mickleson , Day , Garcia , Scott , DJ , Louis O , Stenson , Rose.
		
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Were they not vying for World No. 1 at the same time?

The world No 1 golfer from 2011 to 2013 was: Kaymer, Westwood, Donald and Rory.
Then in 2013-2014 Tiger, Scott and Rory were challenging for No. 1 status
Tiger won none of his majors in the years right before or right after that as he was plagued by injuries…

So no, I don’t think that was a historically high point of golf’s greats at their peak—- which is the only point being discussed

Everyone knows Rory has been at the top or near the top of the game for 11+ years….but that isn’t the point being discussed 🤪


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Were they not vying for World No. 1 at the same time?

The world No 1 golfer from 2011 to 2013 was: Kaymer, Westwood, Donald and Rory.
Then in 2013-2014 Tiger, Scott and Rory were challenging for No. 1 status
Tiger won none of his majors in the years right before or right after that as he was plagued by injuries…

So no, I don’t think that was a historically high point of golf’s greats at their peak—- which is the only point being discussed

Everyone knows Rory has been at the top or near the top of the game for 11+ years….but that isn’t the point being discussed 🤪
		
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You are trying to suggest that Rory won his majors when there wasn’t much opposition around and basing this on who was challenging for the World Number 1 spot 

How about when Woods was winning his majors there was no one really challenging him , who were the big players around then ? Rocco Mediate ? 

Rory won 4 majors over 4 years and at a young age - he destroyed records when winning a US Open and also put in some great performances when battling with the likes of Garcia and Fowler when winning US PGA’s and The Open 

This all started when it was mentioned that DJ winning two is him under achieving during his career - the same period Rory has won four -DJ was playing in that same period or as you call it “pretty historically low point” and your just basing that on a couple of players that were going for World Number 1 at the time -and two players with more ability than some that have won majors 

Rory has under achieved since 2014 - his ability means he should have won more 

It’s a fair statement to say that both have under achieved but don’t discredit the majors that Rory has won


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## Swango1980 (Jul 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Disagree —
 I do not think that Luke Donald and Westwood as your two biggest rivals at the peak of the world game, is a historical high point of golf’s history — fine if you think that
		
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Luke Donald was class when he was World Number 1. His bunker play, short game and putting were out of this world. Did he not get some records around not having a 3 putt in so many holes? Sure, he never won a Major, but I bet going into Majors when he was at that level, he was one of the favourites.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I would even challenge your supposed fact call!
DJ has fallen from 2nd to 18th this year. Fact
DJ has fallen down the OWGR pretty badly this year. Opinion.
		
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You just can’t get some people to accept reality. 

Fallen 16 places in the OWGR = not fallen pretty badly. OK. Got it. Your planet must be a weird place.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 16, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You just can’t get some people to accept reality. 

Fallen 16 places in the OWGR = not fallen pretty badly. OK. Got it. Your planet must be a weird place.
		
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I don't think it has fallen pretty badly, so I guess your fact is actually an opinion. 

I'd say the likes of Hunter Mahan OWGR had fallen pretty badly, in my opinion.


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## Imurg (Jul 16, 2022)

To put into a bit of perspective DJ has fallen quite considerably.
To be #3 in the world you need a points average of about 7.5...DJ currently has 4.0 so he's dropped 3.5 points.
If he'd started where he is now and lost those 3.5 points he would be down between 300 and 400.
So, although 3 to 18 doesn't seem massive, in real terms it's an alarming drop.
He only has a total of 164 WR points...the only player with fewer in the top 20 is Brooks. DJ has lost 181 points this year..only Rahm and Morikawa have lost more but they had more to start with
Assuming DJ finishes well tomorrow he'll pick up points and probably move up..but with no more points on the horizon that drop is going to continue.
In OWGR terms of class DJ's drop as pretty bad..


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## fazza1970 (Jul 16, 2022)

Hearing worrying talk of Hovland having agreed to join LIV after The Open...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Hearing worrying talk of Hovland having agreed to join LIV after The Open...
		
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I have to say I think there is zero chance he would go - and that’s the same for any of the current top 10 players


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## Green Man (Jul 16, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Hearing worrying talk of Hovland having agreed to join LIV after The Open...
		
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Where are you hearing this?


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## IainP (Jul 16, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Hearing worrying talk of Hovland having agreed to join LIV after The Open...
		
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Think it is a bit like footy transfer gossip, stick a story out looking for some clicks. I'm disregarding until a player confirms.
Personally I think September may be when we learn who has & hasn't been tempted.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 16, 2022)

Green Man said:



			Where are you hearing this?
		
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Hovland has been rumoured before. There are new player announcements coming and the 48 man draft is now set for 2023, so I’d guess LIV have got a group of players they’re content with going forwards - be interesting to see who they’ve added.


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## Billysboots (Jul 16, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Hearing worrying talk of Hovland having agreed to join LIV after The Open...
		
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Interesting and controversial first post here, given he’s tied for the lead on the eve of the final round of the 150th Open.

What’s your source?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

Think it was McDowell who was talking about being abused on social media because of the LIV Tour 

And then he posts silly things like this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548361826072596482

There was a lot of back tracking later but posting nonsense like that won’t help , it’s the same with Poulter’s reaction to being asked about being booed 

Did they think that people wouldn’t react


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## Green Man (Jul 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Hovland has been rumoured before. There are new player announcements coming and the 48 man draft is now set for 2023, so I’d guess LIV have got a group of players they’re content with going forwards - be interesting to see who they’ve added.
		
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I agree it will be interesting to see who they add. I think they will add a few of the top 15 youngish players but may have to wait until the FedEx cup is done. Exciting times.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

Green Man said:



			I agree it will be interesting to see who they add. I think they will add a few of the top 15 youngish players but may have to wait until the FedEx cup is done. Exciting times.
		
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Which of the top 15 do you think they will add ?

Especially those just starting their elite career


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## Harry Putter (Jul 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Hovland has been rumoured before. There are new player announcements coming and the 48 man draft is now set for 2023, so I’d guess LIV have got a group of players they’re content with going forwards - be interesting to see who they’ve added.
		
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I feel sorry for those outside the top 48 who haven't got a job anymore.


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## Green Man (Jul 16, 2022)

Who knows? Hovland is mentioned above. Wouldn’t be surprised with Matsuyama, Cantlay, Cam Smith.

I’m interested to see who. I’m enjoying the chaos.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2022)

Green Man said:



			Who knows? Hovland is mentioned above. Wouldn’t be surprised with Matsuyama, Cantlay, Cam Smith.

I’m interested to see who. I’m enjoying the chaos.
		
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Hovland I’ll happy putting my hat on won’t leave , same with Cam Smith . All those in the Top 15 are hungry to win majors 

Matsyuma is one that may go but the rumoured amount for him is staggering £500mil


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## howbow88 (Jul 16, 2022)

The No Laying Up guys have said before that LIV golf have spread fake rumours before about players joining. That's why Morikowa did a video saying it wasn't true.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 16, 2022)

Oh dear, Poults is upset. Shame.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...ts-it-known-the-crowd-are-laying-off-the-boos


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## RRidges (Jul 16, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You just can’t get some people to accept reality.

Fallen 16 places in the OWGR = not fallen pretty badly. OK. Got it. Your planet must be a weird place.
		
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Did I actually suggest you were wrong?
If it's not factual, or verifiable, it's still simply opinion - which others might agree with or not!


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 16, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Interesting and controversial first post here, given he’s tied for the lead on the eve of the final round of the 150th Open.

What’s your source?
		
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It'll be another shill account that will only post in one thread, if it posts at all.


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## RRidges (Jul 16, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh dear, Poults is upset. Shame.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...ts-it-known-the-crowd-are-laying-off-the-boos

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Well I certainly heard plenty of Boos. Maybe his ability to shut out extraneous sounds is part of what makes him a much better golfer than me. Or maybe he's just telling porkies!


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## sunshine (Jul 17, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Are you not just playing the poster there? You're completely twisting his words just to have a go at him from what I can see 👀
		
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Not sure how I can twist his words in a direct quote? I really don’t care about the poster, it was just an astonishing comment.


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## RRidges (Jul 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Anyway boys, I’m off this thread for a few days. Let’s hope we have a thrilling weekend from Scotland.
		
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Good suggestion, whoever by.
I'm looking forward to a great battle. I won't predict the winner as my latest predictions have been pretty dire, but I'm hoping Rory fulfils his potential. Though a win by Cameron Smith would be good for bragging rights. Mentioning Greg Norman doesn't get a great reaction at the moment.


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## Ethan (Jul 17, 2022)

I think they should restructure the teams for LIV Golf.

I suggest:

Team Has Been, captioned by Lee Westwood, and including Poulter, Garcia and Kaymer.
Team Never Really Was with Peter Uihlein, Hudson Swafford and Carlos Ortiz
Team Who's That, captained by Jediah Morgan, James Piot and including, well, quite a lot of players.
Team The PGA Tour Thanks You with Patrick Reed, Talor Gooch and Pat Perez
Team Confused with Dustin Johnson on his own.
Team I Know Its a Shotgun But I Still Finished Half and Hour After Everybody Else with Kevin Na
Team I Think I Regret Making This Move with Louis Oosthuizen, Sam Horsfield and others TBC.


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## Billysboots (Jul 17, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			It'll be another shill account that will only post in one thread, if it posts at all.
		
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Indeed. Joined yesterday at 8.42pm. Made this one post five minutes later and not seen since.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 17, 2022)

Graeme McDowell

@Graeme_McDowell
Quality viewing @TheOpen. The unpredictability of The Old Course from bounces to weather is unlike anything in golf. Can’t turn it off. Thinking pace of play might have improved with a shotgun start? What you guys think?


This could have resulted in Tiger finishing somewhere out the back of the course, and then not having “that walk” up the 18th, which everyone must agree was rather special. 

Just attempting to divert attention away from the 150th Open in my opinion


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## Imurg (Jul 17, 2022)

Needs to spend some of that money on a PR firm..one that tells him to keep it shut....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548697416295219202


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 17, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548692126862557184
The Guardian's golf correspondent Ewan Murray reported that Garcia told Spanish media that 'he will be quitting the European Tour (therefore Ryder Cups).'


"My resignation is not official, but I'm going to make it effective," Garcia is reported to have told Spanish media, adding: "What they are doing is a shame because the European Tour is going to become the fifth in the world."

Mod Edit (Swearing) 


Garcia may now choose to play full-time on the LIV Golf Invitational Series and the Asian Tour, which has seen significant investment from LIV Golf. Paul Casey revealed that WhatsApp messages between LIV playersmay have tried to organise them all playing the same Asian Tour events to boost the strength of fields and therefore world ranking points.


There may be more DP World Tour/Ryder Cup drama to follow if Henrik Stenson joins LIV Golf like one notable report in Sweden claimed. The Ryder Cup captain would almost certainly have to step down if he joined LIV, with the likes of Poulter, Westwood, McDowell and Kaymer also set to be removed from the team, whether as players or captains.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...hlEagGYRzSp3Y5CpD9RaLwbL8o#l5pm4sbaqyuu3hsv8r


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jul 17, 2022)

Henrik Stenson nooooooo


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## fazza1970 (Jul 17, 2022)

Green Man said:



			Where are you hearing this?
		
Click to expand...

Someone with links to McIlroy (and several other players).


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## fazza1970 (Jul 17, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			It'll be another shill account that will only post in one thread, if it posts at all.
		
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Sorry, no shill, and have nothing to do with LIV.
Early 50s cack-handed but v real mid-handicapper in Northumberland. Just happen to have heard something from someone who knows people.


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## fazza1970 (Jul 17, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Indeed. Joined yesterday at 8.42pm. Made this one post five minutes later and not seen since.
		
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Apologies for not being back on before now  Family life, and all that. And there's been some golf on the telly..


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## Billysboots (Jul 17, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Sorry, no shill, and have nothing to do with LIV.
Early 50s cack-handed but v real mid-handicapper in Northumberland. Just happen to have heard something from someone who knows people.
		
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You’ll forgive people for thinking yours was an odd introduction to this forum.


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## IainP (Jul 17, 2022)

I suppose they'll be a flood of info / hype etc. till the end of the month, then perhaps a quiet August  - or is that unlikely.
Despite a great Open it was clear there was plenty being said from several perspectives all over media/social media. Maybe just have to become used to it until the 'Saudi Golf Holiday Destination' is established.


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## IainP (Jul 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hovland I’ll happy putting my hat on won’t leave , same with Cam Smith . *All those in the Top 15 are hungry to win majors*

Matsyuma is one that may go but the rumoured amount for him is staggering £500mil
		
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I expect you are correct but confused by the part highlighted. How are you linking 'hungry to win majors' with where players play outside of majors?


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## Backsticks (Jul 17, 2022)

Stenson going full Saudi would be good news for the PGAT and the World Tour. The more it looks like a champions tour the better from their point of view, and if that is the cohort they keep signing, it does look like the top players have said no.


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## RRidges (Jul 17, 2022)

fazza1970 said:



			Someone with links to McIlroy (and several other players).
		
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Please tell us all the other ones supposedly lined up - before Mel returns and quotes from his LIV staff internal newsletter!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 17, 2022)

There is no doubt that now the majors are finished ( still think moving the PGA was wrong ) the season for many is finished

There is the Fed Ex etc but you can now see some players moving across

Stenson going isn’t a big issue for the tours - he is in the bracket of players whose best days are behind them - it is very poor on his behalf when it comes to the Ryder Cup , but we have seen in the past with Stenson his choices with money aren’t the best

Cam Smith - I would be amazed if he left ,he has the golf world at his feet right now

Cantlay- not sure about him , bit of a grey man on tour but currently one of the big players in the rankings - would be a miss

Matsyuma - heard some very big figures have been mentioned with him / £500mil , he is the figure head of Japanese golf right now , would he really pick the money


In other news I see there is talk they will go and play events on the Asia Tour to gain ranking points

Not sure where that fits with the idea of less events they play etc and also the ranking points won’t be huge for those events ( as the players hold the points )


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In other news I see there is talk they will go and play events on the Asia Tour to gain ranking points

Not sure where that fits with the idea of less events they play etc and also the ranking points won’t be huge for those events ( as the players hold the points )
		
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The more you look at some of the logic the players cite, the less sense it makes.


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## RRidges (Jul 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In other news I see there is talk they will go and play events on the Asia Tour to gain ranking points

Not sure where that fits with the idea of less events they play etc and also the ranking points won’t be huge for those events ( as the players hold the points )
		
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Minimum points of Asian Tour events is about half that of PGA Tour or DP World Tour. 
They'd be better going to the Australasian Tour - or both.
I doubt whether either tour would actually accept them though, as PGA Tour would use it's influence and resources to prevent it.


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## Green Man (Jul 17, 2022)

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-...-turn-his-back-on-pga-tour-and-join-liv-golf/


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 17, 2022)

Green Man said:



https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-...-turn-his-back-on-pga-tour-and-join-liv-golf/

Click to expand...

It is funny that the headlines are just a touch different to what was actually said 

“Smith had been asked in his formal 150th Open victory conference regarding rumours he was joining LIV Golf but fended-off the question from the Press Association saying: “I just won the British Open, and you’re asking about that. I think that’s pretty not good”.”

So from that they have decided he is joining


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## Green Man (Jul 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is funny that the headlines are just a touch different to what was actually said 

“Smith had been asked in his formal 150th Open victory conference regarding rumours he was joining LIV Golf but fended-off the question from the Press Association saying: “I just won the British Open, and you’re asking about that. I think that’s pretty not good”.”

So from that they have decided he is joining
		
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He doesn’t exactly categorically deny it either what would have been easier to do. 

I didn’t write the article marra just posting what has been reported. It’s pretty widely reported on Twitter as well. I guess it’s a case of watch this space.


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## RRidges (Jul 17, 2022)

Green Man said:



https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-...-turn-his-back-on-pga-tour-and-join-liv-golf/

Click to expand...

Pure speculation? If he does go, I hope he renegotiates his already obscene bung/guarantee.
As #6, he'd be the highest ranked in the circus.


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## Green Man (Jul 17, 2022)

RRidges said:



			If he does go, I hope he renegotiates his already obscene bung/guarantee.
		
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If he had decided to go you have to think today will get him at least an extra 50 million signing in fee.


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## sunshine (Jul 18, 2022)

Green Man said:



			He doesn’t exactly categorically deny it either what would have been easier to do. 

I didn’t write the article marra just posting what has been reported. It’s pretty widely reported on Twitter as well. I guess it’s a case of watch this space.
		
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“Widely reported on Twitter” is not exactly gospel is it? Among the attention seekers, fantasists, Liv fake news accounts, accounts sponsored by Liv, trolls and time wasters, there may be some accounts posting genuine stories 🤷‍♂️


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## IainP (Jul 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Minimum points of Asian Tour events is about half that of PGA Tour or DP World Tour.
They'd be better going to the Australasian Tour - or both.
I doubt whether either tour would actually accept them though, as PGA Tour would use it's influence and resources to prevent it.
		
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The calc rules change next month ....
https://www.skysports.com/golf/news...s-big-changes-to-its-ranking-system-from-2022

Asian tour is already 'influenced' but not by PGAT
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/saudi-backed-asian-tour-confirms-first-ever-england-tournament


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Minimum points of Asian Tour events is about half that of PGA Tour or DP World Tour.
They'd be better going to the Australasian Tour - or both.
I doubt whether either tour would actually accept them though, as PGA Tour would use it's influence and resources to prevent it.
		
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The Saudis have put $400 million into The Asian tour already, all the LIV players need to do, assuming the bid for OWGR points is rejected, is co-ordinate enough Asian Tour events, when they can all play together in order to gain some OWGR points - The Open and The US Open, are already part of that tour.
Phil made a comment in an interview of the weekend when he was being questioned about LIV - parapharasing but it was something along the lines of "It will all become clear in a couple of years"

Maybe the plan is to grow The Asian Tour into something that rivals the PGA Tour, but that spreads itself across the globe - The Slaley Hall event this year was pretty much a low key event, but I'd imagine if it takes place next year, then could be much more relevant to world golf?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Saudis have put $400 million into The Asian tour already, all the LIV players need to do, assuming the bid for OWGR points is rejected, is co-ordinate enough Asian Tour events, when they can all play together in order to gain some OWGR points - The Open and The US Open, are already part of that tour.
Phil made a comment in an interview of the weekend when he was being questioned about LIV - parapharasing but it was something along the lines of "It will all become clear in a couple of years"

Maybe the plan is to grow The Asian Tour into something that rivals the PGA Tour, but that spreads itself across the globe - The Slaley Hall event this year was pretty much a low key event, but I'd imagine if it takes place next year, then could be much more relevant to world golf?
		
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The LiV players can coordinate all they like. There aren’t enough of them (currently) that are good enough to increase the WR points the Asian tour events are worth. 

What happened to less travelling and playing fewer events?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Oh aye, there's a LIV series in the pipeline for the women as well, which I would imagine will follow the same or similar format


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			The LiV players can coordinate all they like. There aren’t enough of them (currently) that are good enough to increase the WR points the Asian tour events are worth.

What happened to less travelling and playing fewer events?
		
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So if the Asian Tour doesn't generate enough ranking points to get into the majors, how come some of the asian tour players get into the majors?

There were quite a few LIV players who will have picked up some strong points at the weekend, DJ, BDC, Kaewkanjana, Ancer.... and of course, there are more announcements coming so could be one or two more who finished well at The Open.

Have they all said they want to play less? They probably all can, and still have a crack at major qualification, some will have exemptions as well, and some will probably be happy to play pretty frequently. 

Have we seen this weekend, that maybe, the extra time they have to prepare, helps them come into majors in better shape - who knows, but it is something worth considering, 12 LIV players made the cut, and 4 of those made the top (T) 11 places.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Its a fair assumption that Smith is seriously considering it thought. If he had no thought of it, he wouldnt have responded tetchily, but would have killed the topic there and then by saying he is committed to tye PGAT, back to talking about my Open win.


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## fazza1970 (Jul 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Please tell us all the other ones supposedly lined up - before Mel returns and quotes from his LIV staff internal newsletter! 

Click to expand...

No idea.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its a fair assumption that Smith is seriously considering it thought. If he had no thought of it, he wouldnt have responded tetchily, but would have killed the topic there and then by saying he is committed to tye PGAT, back to talking about my Open win.
		
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LIV need a big name to represent Australasia, it's a continent that produces some excellent golfers, both male and female, and with the LIV series looking to go to Australia early next year, you can be pretty confident there have been some tempting offers or enquiries put out to the likes of Smith, Scott etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So if the Asian Tour doesn't generate enough ranking points to get into the majors, how come some of the asian tour players get into the majors?
		
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Currently in the top 100 there are 1 player who play regularly on the Asian Tour -JH Kim

There are about 8 players from the Japanese Tour

The Asian players you see playing in the majors come from qualifying comps that are held as opposed to World Ranking points

Hence not many play in The Masters

It’s a shame that potentially that route could be blocked by these LIV golfers now

The R&A said they wouldn’t ban players but could look at how people qualify

If all these LIV players look to take these places from the Asian players then no doubt the R&A will look to do something




			There were quite a few LIV players who will have picked up some strong points at the weekend, DJ, BDC, Kaewkanjana, Ancer.... and of course, there are more announcements coming so could be one or two more who finished well at The Open.

Have they all said they want to play less? They probably all can, and still have a crack at major qualification, some will have exemptions as well, and some will probably be happy to play pretty frequently.

Have we seen this weekend, that maybe, the extra time they have to prepare, helps them come into majors in better shape - who knows, but it is something worth considering, 12 LIV players made the cut, and 4 of those made the top (T) 11 places.
		
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Or maybe players like DJ faded away due to lack of playing ?

Players like Mickleson, Kopka etc who haven’t played much also suffered

the likes of DJ did well because they are just high quality players


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Currently in the top 100 there are 1 player who play regularly on the Asian Tour -JH Kim

There are about 8 players from the Japanese Tour

The Asian players you see playing in the majors come from qualifying comps that are held as opposed to World Ranking points

Hence not many play in The Masters

It’s a shame that potentially that route could be blocked by these LIV golfers now

The R&A said they wouldn’t ban players but could look at how people qualify

If all these LIV players look to take these places from the Asian players then no doubt the R&A will look to do something



Or maybe players like DJ faded away due to lack of playing ?

Players like Mickleson, Kopka etc who haven’t played much also suffered

the likes of DJ did well because they are just high quality players
		
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Maybe Rory should sign,  54 holes would work for him...


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## Aussie Swinger (Jul 18, 2022)

Well, well, well. Does Cam Smith now hold all the Aces? if he was considering LIV, hes just probably put 250 million onto his signing fee, he’s exempt for all majors for the next 5 years, and there ain’t nothing the PGA tour, DP tour can do about it. Oh, and he does have to have ‘missing out on the Ryder cup’ threat hanging over him. Presidents cup ain’t worth Jack. If he goes, I believe pga/Dp house of cards could start tumbling. Just a thought, and also now major season is over, will some of the young guns make the jump?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Currently in the top 100 there are 1 player who play regularly on the Asian Tour -JH Kim

There are about 8 players from the Japanese Tour

The Asian players you see playing in the majors come from qualifying comps that are held as opposed to World Ranking points

Hence not many play in The Masters

It’s a shame that potentially that route could be blocked by these LIV golfers now

The R&A said they wouldn’t ban players but could look at how people qualify

If all these LIV players look to take these places from the Asian players then no doubt the R&A will look to do something



Or maybe players like DJ faded away due to lack of playing ?

Players like Mickleson, Kopka etc who haven’t played much also suffered

the likes of DJ did well because they are just high quality players
		
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If the LIV players go and play on the Asian Tour, then the event ranking improves, so it could potentially lead to more Asian tour players qualifying for majors, rather than LIV players blocking them.

I very much doubt that there's a legal position where the R&A can engineer entry requirements to prevent golfers attending The Open, because of which tour or series they play on - and they'll know that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If the LIV players go and play on the Asian Tour, then the event ranking improves, so it could potentially lead to more Asian tour players qualifying for majors, rather than LIV players blocking them.

I very much doubt that there's a legal position where the R&A can engineer entry requirements to prevent golfers attending The Open, because of which tour or series they play on - and they'll know that.
		
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The entry into the majors in regards World Ranking points is at 50 - how many more Asian tour players do you think will break in just because some of the LIV tour players will play in some of their events ? 

Looking at the entry criteria for The Open - no spots are open for the Asia Tour OOM winners 

There are spots for Australian, Japan ,Sunshine , then winners of various events around the World but none from an Asian Tour event 

So they would need to play in the qualifying series to gain entry for the Open and US Open , and there isn’t one for The Masters 

So it’s going to be very tough for any LiV player who isn’t exempt to play in the Majors 

And I have no doubt that the governing bodies of the majors can have their entry qualification how they want - and if that means adjusting it so Liv Tour players can’t play there isn’t much that can be done


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The entry into the majors in regards World Ranking points is at 50 - how many more Asian tour players do you think will break in just because some of the LIV tour players will play in some of their events ?

Looking at the entry criteria for The Open - no spots are open for the Asia Tour OOM winners

There are spots for Australian, Japan ,Sunshine , then winners of various events around the World but none from an Asian Tour event

So they would need to play in the qualifying series to gain entry for the Open and US Open , and there isn’t one for The Masters

So it’s going to be very tough for any LiV player who isn’t exempt to play in the Majors

And I have no doubt that the governing bodies of the majors can have their entry qualification how they want - and if that means adjusting it so Liv Tour players can’t play there isn’t much that can be done
		
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Fair enough, do you think that The Open would have been diminished without the LIV players this weekend, or perhaps can I expand that as would you prefer to see LIV players unable to qualify for majors?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Fair enough, do you think that The Open would have been diminished without the LIV players this weekend, or perhaps can I expand that as would you prefer to see LIV players unable to qualify for majors?
		
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I have no issues with the current qualifying criteria for the Majors and see no reason for it to change and I don’t expect them to change it too much - it will naturally ensure that LIV players will struggle to qualify through time


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

I would be very disappointed to see Smith defect. Hideous mullet apart, there is a lot to like about him, and unlike almost all of the big name defectors, his game is still on the up. He doesn't want to play in exhibition events where half the field is makeweight players, or in Asian Tour events. He wants to win majors and PGA Tour events.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

I for one just think the weekend showed how great golf can be with a collection of the world best players all competing.

Majors need the best players playing, I hope they re-think qualification/ award WGR points so that LIV players continue to be included.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I would be very disappointed to see Smith defect. Hideous mullet apart, there is a lot to like about him, and unlike almost all of the big name defectors, his game is still on the up. *He doesn't want to play in exhibition events where half the field is makeweight players*, or in Asian Tour events. *He wants to win majors and PGA Tour events*.
		
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Or does he....... Going to be really interesting if he does move!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2022)

Aussie Swinger said:



			he’s exempt for all majors for the next 5 years, and there ain’t nothing the PGA tour, DP tour can do about it.
		
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I'm not so sure about that. One suggestion I've seen is that a golfer that is banned from one of the main tours will not be eligible for entry into The Open. No idea where they'd stand legally on that if they did it but assume that legal advice would be taken before any changes are made.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 18, 2022)

Smith said in an interview a while ago that he doesn’t need anymore money as he already has enough.

I’d be disappointed if he does go, as what other reason is there other than a pile of dirty cash?


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## IanM (Jul 18, 2022)

Anyone on here "yet to deny" they are off to the liv.com forum?


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## Marshy77 (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Currently in the top 100 there are 1 player who play regularly on the Asian Tour -JH Kim

There are about 8 players from the Japanese Tour

The Asian players you see playing in the majors come from qualifying comps that are held as opposed to World Ranking points

Hence not many play in The Masters

It’s a shame that potentially that route could be blocked by these LIV golfers now

The R&A said they wouldn’t ban players but could look at how people qualify

If all these LIV players look to take these places from the Asian players then no doubt the R&A will look to do something



Or maybe players like DJ faded away due to lack of playing ?

Players like Mickleson, Kopka etc who haven’t played much also suffered

the likes of DJ did well because they are just high quality players
		
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Pretty certain in commentary they said DJ has played the same amount as Rory this year.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Anyone on here "yet to deny" they are off to the liv.com forum?
		
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I can't deny or confirm at this stage.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Anyone on here "yet to deny" they are off to the liv.com forum?
		
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Didn’t know they had a forum, I’ll have to consult with my manager,


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Anyone on here "yet to deny" they are off to the liv.com forum?
		
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I'm not allowed to talk about it. I've signed an NDA


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## Slab (Jul 18, 2022)

Shame to see the ‘headlines’ that Cam Smith ‘failed to deny rumours’ about going to LIV, when all he really did was not answer an ill-timed/inappropriate question 

The journalist should've been called out by their peers & told to belt up


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Slab said:



			Shame to see the ‘headlines’ that Cam Smith ‘failed to deny rumours’ about going to LIV, when all he really did was not answer an ill-timed/inappropriate question

The journalist should've been called out by their peers & told to belt up
		
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Or he could have just done what many would have and said no? 

Does strike me as another Morikawa type scenario though!


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## IainP (Jul 18, 2022)

As thread has morphed into general professional golf admin etc., had a look for 2022 ogwr, strength of field calcs

The Open        871
US Open          830
US PGA            876
Masters           785

Players            806

The OGWR have a rule in place that the winner receives 100 points for the 'majors', irrespective of field.
Also the Players receives 80 points.

Apparently these caveats remain when the system changes next month.

The PGAT have been banging the "5th major" for some time now, and can see based on the field that they may be privately irked by the Masters love in.

However, as mentioned previously, the current ban position _may_ hurt the Players field next year.


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## Slab (Jul 18, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Or he could have just done what many would have and said no?

Does strike me as another Morikawa type scenario though!
		
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But wouldn't saying no (or yes) just validate that the question was ok/appropriate to be asked at that setting? It just doesn't deserve to be answered (at that place & time) 
Best to do what he did and call it out as ridiculous


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Some of these LIV guys need a good kick up the backside. They are manning about having to fly to events two or threee weeks in a row, all that tiresome limo travel to the private airfield and then the NetJets flights and travel to the luxury accommodation arranged and staffed by their people. And then playing for a first prize of a couple of million. It is a shocking burden to bear.

Some people compared the no money of they miss the cut issue to baseball or basketball players who get paid regardless. Setting aside the fact they can also get fired or transferred, don't these players go on the road and play a series of lot of matches. Steph Curry, maybe the biggest name in basketball has played 64 games in the 21/22 regular season, mostly 2 or 3 days apart, and 22 more in the playoffs. He has done a lot of travelling. Baseball players play a lot of games too, sometimes 150 or so in a season. Are these the schedules that LIV players think are reasonable?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Anyone on here "yet to deny" they are off to the liv.com forum?
		
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My team deal with that side of things. I just concentrate on playing my golf.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Slab said:



			But wouldn't saying no (or yes) just validate that the question was ok/appropriate to be asked at that setting? It just doesn't deserve to be answered (at that place & time)
Best to do what he did and call it out as ridiculous
		
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I see your point, but not answering it definitely causes more speculation and articles than just saying no and not to ask that question again.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Funny how LIV Golf are throwing millions at players with various degrees of public recognition, but also asking for unpaid volunteers to help out at the events. Presumably they think that gullible amateurs will give up their time in order to see Jediah Morgan in the flesh.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Funny how LIV Golf are throwing millions at players with various degrees of public recognition, but also asking for unpaid volunteers to help out at the events. Presumably they think that gullible amateurs will give up their time in order to see Jediah Morgan in the flesh.
		
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Aren't marshalls at most tournaments unpaid volunteers? You get a cap, polo shirts, waterproof jacket and vouchers for your food. You also get to see pro golfers close up, inside the ropes. As amateur golfers, that's a blast isn't it? No shortage of volunteers when they had the British Masters at Close House, up here.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

One thing worth noting with Smith. A friend of his says hoe much he loves fishing and that he has a fishing trip planned in two weeks.

The next LIV event, is in two weeks, so on that basis, he’s obviously not signed up. 👍


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## AddisonRoad (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Funny how LIV Golf are throwing millions at players with various degrees of public recognition, but also asking for unpaid volunteers to help out at the events. Presumably they think that gullible amateurs will give up their time in order to see Jediah Morgan in the flesh.
		
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They're correct that gullible amateurs will give up their time. I saw many people marshaling with "volunteer" apparel at the first LIV event at Centurion - they must have felt even more ripped off when they found out everyone there hadn't had to pay for tickets either!


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If the LIV players go and play on the Asian Tour, then the event ranking improves, so it could potentially lead to more Asian tour players qualifying for majors, rather than LIV players blocking them.

I very much doubt that there's a legal position where the R&A can engineer entry requirements to prevent golfers attending The Open, because of which tour or series they play on - and they'll know that.
		
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R&A would never dream of trying to restrict entry due to a professional spat. They Open. Its the brand. They must have, and be seen to have, the best golfera in the world. Any obstruction, even of a "well, they can come through reguonal qualifying, so they arent banned" type, would never happen, as it would devalue the Open, and kill it. They have nothing to gain, nor to do that


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issues with the current qualifying criteria for the Majors and see no reason for it to change and I don’t expect them to change it too much - it will naturally ensure that LIV players will struggle to qualify through time
		
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It has to change. DJ, BdC, PR etc have to play in the open. It doesnt matter that they werent in the placing this week. If they are in the top 150 golfers on the world, and there is no question but that they are, then they have to start.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Aren't marshalls at most tournaments unpaid volunteers? You get a cap, polo shirts, waterproof jacket and vouchers for your food. You also get to see pro golfers close up, inside the ropes. As amateur golfers, that's a blast isn't it? No shortage of volunteers when they had the British Masters at Close House, up here.
		
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It was more the stark contrast between the vulgar amounts of money being thrown around at players and the expectation of free help from the peasants. If the volunteers walk away with a nice Boss outfit, OK.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Slab said:



			But wouldn't saying no (or yes) just validate that the question was ok/appropriate to be asked at that setting? It just doesn't deserve to be answered (at that place & time)
Best to do what he did and call it out as ridiculous
		
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Whether it was appropriate or not is immaterial once it was asked. Saying no would have put an end to it. Kicking it away leaves it open, and so clear that he doesnt have a public position to give at the moment....so clear he might move. He will continue to be asked about it now until he gives a definitive answer.


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## Slab (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Whether it was appropriate or not is immaterial once it was asked. Saying no would have put an end to* it. Kicking it away leaves it open, and so clear that he doesnt have a public position to give at the moment....*so clear he might move. He will continue to be asked about it now until he gives a definitive answer.
		
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Does that really matter though? That just minutes after winning the Open he didn't have a public position on the matter, isn't that perfectly Ok/appropriate at that moment without it meaning anything other than that. 
I just don't get why it has to become a _'Smith refused to deny'_ moment rather than _'the journalist was an idiot' _moment


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It has to change. DJ, BdC, PR etc have to play in the open. It doesnt matter that they werent in the placing this week. If they are in the top 150 golfers on the world, and there is no question but that they are, then they have to start.
		
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It doesn’t have to change at all and it won’t change 

If a player doesn’t qualify then they just don’t play - doesn’t matter what their name is 

They won’t change the qualifying to ensure that players who have left to go play on the LIV still get a route in


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It was more the stark contrast between the vulgar amounts of money being thrown around at players and the expectation of free help from the peasants. If the volunteers walk away with a nice Boss outfit, OK.
		
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It's the same at pretty much all tournaments though, as far as I am aware. Fedex finals, Masters, Open etc, all volunteer marshalls, all with huge prize money. If no one volunteers then they will have to pay people but most amateurs love the chance of a bit of free gear and to be able to get up close to the action. LIV are just following what other tournaments do in this case.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 18, 2022)

Might be struggling for future Ryder cup captains at this rate 😬


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Might be struggling for future Ryder cup captains at this rate 😬
		
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Luke Donald will be making sure his phone is charged up. It looked like his chance had gone, not so now.


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## rksquire (Jul 18, 2022)

Slab said:



			Shame to see the ‘headlines’ that Cam Smith ‘failed to deny rumours’ about going to LIV, when all he really did was not answer an ill-timed/inappropriate question

*The journalist should've been called out by their peers & told to belt up*

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They're still too busy back slapping themselves and high fiving after their overly aggressive questioning of the LIV players at those pressers.  Still waiting on Usyk being asked if there's nowhere he wouldn't box for money and if Putin offered enough would he box in Moscow.

The question is possibly inappropriate given he's just won the Open and R&A have went to some length to remove LIV discussions, but it's not ill-timed given its prevalence in the world of golf.  With the lack of specific answer, the Stenson debacle, and other rumours floating around, it's quite clear that Golf fans and Tour administrators care more about Majors, Ryder Cups, World Ranking points etc. than players generally do (some exceptions obviously).


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issues with the current qualifying criteria for the Majors and see no reason for it to change and I don’t expect them to change it too much - it will naturally ensure that LIV players will struggle to qualify through time
		
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And I take it you’re happy with the quality of the fields in the majors being diminished by the abscence of some of the worlds best golfers?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And I take it you’re happy with the quality of the fields in the majors being diminished by the abscence of some of the worlds best golfers?
		
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I have no issues with future fields missing the odd player who could have challenged for the title. It won’t matter a jolt to the winner that DJ etc wasn’t playing and it won’t make a difference to how the winner is perceived

As soon as the first ball is hit the fact someone isn’t there won’t matter to anyone apart from those who would want to make it an issue

And if someone isn’t there imo it means they don’t really care enough about the major to be there - they have made a choice


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## AddisonRoad (Jul 18, 2022)

I also firmly believe that the LIV players will begin performing worse in the majors (if they are allowed to continue playing in them). While they've only just switched, after months/years of playing silly 54 hole events with no real motivation, their performances will begin to suffer. So far, most players going to LIV are clearly the players that don't enjoy golf to the full extent - their practice and performance will suffer with guaranteed money and shorter events. The margins are too thin in majors.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issues with future fields missing the odd player who could have challenged for the title. It won’t matter a jolt to the winner that DJ etc wasn’t playing and it won’t make a difference to how the winner is perceived

As soon as the first ball is hit the fact someone isn’t there won’t matter to anyone apart from those who would want to make it an issue

And if someone isn’t there imo it means they don’t really care enough about the major to be there - they have made a choice
		
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So let’s get this straight, it’s the players choice not to be able to qualify for majors, even though others are making changes that prevent them from qualifying, and you’ve already said you’d be happy to see further changes to make it more difficult for them to qualify? All those LIV players will want to play in all the majors, some still want to play tour events, but they’ve been denied that by the governing bodies of the tours. 
The Tours are desperately trying every angle they can find to a way to see off the LIV series, and all it will do is diminish their appeal, to spectators and investors alike. 

What did Sergio say - The DP tour will be the 5th rated in the world? 
He’s probably correct.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So let’s get this straight, it’s the players choice not to be able to qualify for majors, even though others are making changes that prevent them from qualifying, and you’ve already said you’d be happy to see further changes to make it more difficult for them to qualify? All those LIV players will want to play in all the majors, *some still want to play tour events, but they’ve been denied that by the governing bodies of the tours.*
The Tours are desperately trying every angle they can find to a way to see off the LIV series, and all it will do is diminish their appeal, to spectators and investors alike.

What did Sergio say - The DP tour will be the 5th rated in the world?
He’s probably correct.
		
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Wrong. They were told the consequences for PGA Tour and DP World Tour membership, and chose to risk it as part of whoring themselves to the LIV Tour. 

Few of them will be missed, maybe Kopeka, DJ and BdC, the last largely as a sideshow. Most of the rest will not be missed and will not diminish the majors.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It doesn’t have to change at all and it won’t change

If a player doesn’t qualify then they just don’t play - doesn’t matter what their name is

They won’t change the qualifying to ensure that players who have left to go play on the LIV still get a route in
		
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They have to, and will change the qualifying process. Their goal is to ensure the worlds best golfers are in the Open field. They have no interest in the Open becoming a second class tournament, which it would if some of the worlds best golfers are excluded becaus3 of who their employer is. Even if the owgr didnt change, the R&A would have to have an LIV category if owgr didnt catch those golfers. Maybe too 10 on the Saudi tour. Or any Saudi winners. Or run their own parallel rankings giving points to LIV events even if the owgr committee as a whole doesnt.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Wrong. They were told the consequences for PGA Tour and DP World Tour membership, and chose to risk it as part of whoring themselves to the LIV Tour.

Few of them will be missed, maybe Kopeka, DJ and BdC, the last largely as a sideshow. Most of the rest will not be missed and will not diminish the majors.
		
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Of course it will diminish them, majors are about the best golfers in the world competing together, if you take some of those players away, the quality of the event is weakened. That’s undeniable. 

As I said earlier, having golfers from LIV and the other tours competing together added some juice to The Open.


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## Orikoru (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They have to, and will change the qualifying process. Their goal is to ensure the worlds best golfers are in the Open field. They have no interest in the Open becoming a second class tournament, which it would if some of the worlds best golfers are excluded becaus3 of who their employer is. Even if the owgr didnt change, the R&A would have to have an LIV category if owgr didnt catch those golfers. Maybe too 10 on the Saudi tour. Or any Saudi winners. Or run their own parallel rankings giving points to LIV events even if the owgr committee as a whole doesnt.
		
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Agreed. More will continue to join LIV until enough have joined that excluding them from majors and even PGA events would be tantamount to shooting themselves in the foot and weakening the fields substantially.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So let’s get this straight, it’s the players choice not to be able to qualify for majors, even though others are making changes that prevent them from qualifying, and you’ve already said you’d be happy to see further changes to make it more difficult for them to qualify? All those LIV players will want to play in all the majors, some still want to play tour events, but they’ve been denied that by the governing bodies of the tours.
The Tours are desperately trying every angle they can find to a way to see off the LIV series, and all it will do is diminish their appeal, to spectators and investors alike.

What did Sergio say - The DP tour will be the 5th rated in the world?
He’s probably correct.
		
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1. The only people right now making the changes are LIV Tour and the players themselves 

2. By removing themselves from the tours they are removing themselves from some of the ways that allow them to gain qualification to the majors 

If the players want to play in the majors and some tour events they are more than welcome to providing they abide by those majors and tour events entry rules and criteria 

Players are being denied because they are breaking terms of the membership criteria of the tour 

The players knew there would be some consequences of them moving to a new tour because of the financial rewards on offer 

Do you really think the tours and majors should just do nothing and let the players do what ever they want ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They have to, and will change the qualifying process. Their goal is to ensure the worlds best golfers are in the Open field. They have no interest in the Open becoming a second class tournament, which it would if some of the worlds best golfers are excluded becaus3 of who their employer is. Even if the owgr didnt change, the R&A would have to have an LIV category if owgr didnt catch those golfers. Maybe too 10 on the Saudi tour. Or any Saudi winners. Or run their own parallel rankings giving points to LIV events even if the owgr committee as a whole doesnt.
		
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They don’t have too at all

Their “goal” is to provide the best golf comp in the world and crown the champion golfer - who that is or who enters won’t be a “goal” 

The Open won’t become a second class tournament because of a few players missing out

They won’t change their qualifying criteria to allow winners of the LIV tour events entry into the Open , just as the Masters won’t or US Open

The R&A won’t bow down to the money of LiV just as the PGA tour won’t , Dp tour etc won’t

They aren’t going to change things based on 48 golfers


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Agreed. More will continue to join LIV until enough have joined that excluding them from majors and even PGA events would be tantamount to shooting themselves in the foot and weakening the fields substantially.
		
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That more will join LIV is a possibility but not a certainty.

At the moment we have uncontaminated ranking : the owgr, and majors winners that have all come from unrestricted fields. Thats why LIV only has a limited window to attract players. They cannot mint their own currency of valuable players. Young prospects have no value unless measured again a significant number of clearly worlds best. That the moment they are Sheff, Rahm, Rory, Thomas etc. It isnt Phil, Poulter, Garcia. So no one can acquire golfing rating playing against them. 

But for the majors, and the open in particular, yes, there is no way they will shoot themselves in the foot, if say even 10 of the current top 30 threw their lot in with Saudi.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			1. The only people right now making the changes are LIV Tour and the players themselves

2. By removing themselves from the tours they are removing themselves from some of the ways that allow them to gain qualification to the majors

If the players want to play in the majors and some tour events they are more than welcome to providing they abide by those majors and tour events entry rules and criteria

Players are being denied because they are breaking terms of the membership criteria of the tour

The players knew there would be some consequences of them moving to a new tour because of the financial rewards on offer

Do you really think the tours and majors should just do nothing and let the players do what ever they want ?
		
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The R&A has no concern for the rules of the tours. They need the best golfers. If the system currently used as the selection filter is no longer effective, they will change the system to ensure they capture them.

The R&A isnt 'bowing'. It doesnt care. It used the owgr and tours as it was a sensible access system.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They aren’t going to change things based on 48 golfers
		
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Think this one through. Say the worlds top 48 went Saudi. Would the r&A simply say : they made their choice, so no Open for them. NO chance. Why would they.  Why are people mixing up the goals of the pro tours and the R&A ?  They are vastly different bodies.


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## IainP (Jul 18, 2022)

Genuinely wish I had the ability some others seem to have to be certain what will happen in future 🙄
History may show that when large sums of money are involved, previously improbable events can become more probable


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Think this one through. Say the worlds top 48 went Saudi. Would the r&A simply say : they made their choice, so no Open for them. NO chance. Why would they.  Why are people mixing up the goals of the pro tours and the R&A ?  They are vastly different bodies.
		
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By the time the next Open comes around they won't be in the top 48 because their World Ranking will have dropped so they will no longer be "the best in the world"


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Imurg said:



			By the time the next Open comes around they won't be in the top 48 because their World Ranking will have dropped so they will no longer be "the best in the world"
		
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That’s actually quite funny, almost chortled at that.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They aren’t going to change things based on 48 golfers
		
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Think this one through. Say the worlds top 48 went Saudi. Would the r&A simply say : they made their choice, so no Open for them. NO chance. Why would they.  Why are people mixing up the goals of the pro tours and the R&A ?  They are vastly different bodies.


Imurg said:



			By the time the next Open comes around they won't be in the top 48 because their World Ranking will have dropped so they will no longer be "the best in the world"
		
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They still will be, predominantly. Just the measure currently in use, the owgr, wont reflect it. And so it, if unmodified to the new reality, will have no credibility.
Owgr deesnt define best in the world. It reflects it in a systematic manner. Majors won up to now, and the owgr, up to now, set the pecking order.but distort either, and their foundation is gone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Think this one through. Say the worlds top 48 went Saudi. Would the r&A simply say : they made their choice, so no Open for them. NO chance. Why would they.  Why are people mixing up the goals of the pro tours and the R&A ?  They are vastly different bodies.
		
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The R&A won’t change their qualfiying criteria to enable LiV golfers to enter via LIV competitions - of that I’m very sure about. 

The R&A are very linked in with the PGA of America , The Masters and the USGA - and those governing bodies very much work closely with the two main tour operators - PGA Tour and DP World tour along with Japan Tour , Asia Pacific and Sunshine Tour 

The LIV Tour Right now isn’t part of that and until it is then they won’t be treated the same way as the other tours


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course it will diminish them, majors are about the best golfers in the world competing together, if you take some of those players away, the quality of the event is weakened. That’s undeniable.

As I said earlier, having golfers from LIV and the other tours competing together added some juice to The Open.
		
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So the absence of which golfers will diminish majors?

For the short to medium term the absence of Koepka, BdC, DJ would diminish the majors. Koepka missed the 2020 US Open won by BdC and the 2018 Masters win by Reed. Bryson missed this year's PGA. DJ missed the 2017 Masters. Were those events diminished?

Who else?

Would losing Westwood, Na, Branden Grace etc really diminish the majors?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So the absence of which golfers will diminish majors?

For the short to medium term the absence of Koepka, BdC, DJ would diminish the majors. Koepka missed the 2020 US Open won by BdC and the 2018 Masters win by Reed. Bryson missed this year's PGA. DJ missed the 2017 Masters. Were those events diminished?

Who else?

Would losing Westwood, Na, Branden Grace etc really diminish the majors?
		
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Ok, you’re dealing in opinion, I’m dealing in facts. 
If some of the best players in the world, are denied entry to an event, then the quality of the field in that event is diminished, that’s a fact. 4 LIV players in the top 11 places at The Open, proof that these players are world class, challenging for top positions on an iconic golf course in an iconic event. 
Fine if you want to see the back of them, but putt an asterix against cyber name of any future champions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, you’re dealing in opinion, I’m dealing in facts.
If some of the best players in the world, are denied entry to an event, then the quality of the field in that event is diminished, that’s a fact. 4 LIV players in the top 11 places at The Open, proof that these players are world class, challenging for top positions on an iconic golf course in an iconic event.
Fine if you want to see the back of them, but putt an asterix against cyber name of any future champions.
		
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“put an asterisk” - do you think that should happen for any major when someone from the top 50 can’t play ? 

And where people finish in a single major doesn’t make someone “World class”

And again no one is being “denied” access - if they don’t qualify then they don’t qualify- doesn’t demean the event or the perception of the winner


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, you’re dealing in opinion, I’m dealing in facts.
If some of the best players in the world, are denied entry to an event, then the quality of the field in that event is diminished, that’s a fact. 4 LIV players in the top 11 places at The Open, proof that these players are world class, challenging for top positions on an iconic golf course in an iconic event.
Fine if you want to see the back of them, but putt an asterix against cyber name of any future champions.
		
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OK, fact boy. Which players diminish the majors by their absence?. You said that is a fact so there must be some irrefutable evidence, i.e. more facts, to substantiate it. 

Happy to hear an opinion free but more specific response. 

I like the way you chose the well known category of top 11. Every player aspires to get into the top 11. Obviously, though it was chosen in order to squeeze in Burmester and Ancer to bump up the apparent success of LIV players, even though neither one was ever in contention. And the numbers are wrong, because it is really 4 in the top 14, fact, because there were 4 at T11. Otherwise it would be 2 in the top 10, both T8 (DJ and BdC) and neither of them were really in contention, certainly not on the last day.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, fact boy. Which players diminish the majors by their absence?. You said that is a fact so there must be some irrefutable evidence, i.e. more facts, to substantiate it.

Happy to hear an opinion free but more specific response.

I like the way you chose the well known category of top 11. Every player aspires to get into the top 11. Obviously, though it was chosen in order to squeeze in Burmester and Ancer to bump up the apparent success of LIV players, even though neither one was ever in contention. And the numbers are wrong, because it is really 4 in the top 14, fact, because there were 4 at T11. Otherwise it would be 2 in the top 10, both T8 (DJ and BdC) and neither of them were really in contention, certainly not on the last day.
		
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Actually I’d missed Burmester when I was having a quick glance this morning, so that’s 5 LIV players in the top 11 places (cos that’s what they are, even if they are tied - fact 😘)

Even going by your means of measurement 5 of the top 14 suggests that the LIV golfers contributed to the event.

I know they weren’t challenging, but if you want to take that argument we could apply it to 90% of any last day field at any event.
Shall we tell anybody more than 5 off the lead that they’re irrelevant and to just hack it round on the last day?


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Actually I’d missed Burmester when I was having a quick glance this morning, so that’s 5 LIV players in the top 11 places (cos that’s what they are, even if they are tied - fact 😘)

Even going by your means of measurement 5 of the top 14 suggests that the LIV golfers contributed to the event.

I know they weren’t challenging, but if you want to take that argument we could apply it to 90% of any last day field at any event.
Shall we tell anybody more than 5 off the lead that they’re irrelevant and to just hack it round on the last day?
		
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That is some nice LIV maths there. The choice of top 11 is laughable. You are wrong that T11 is 11th - not a fact at all. 3 LIV players (plus another non-LIV) finished T11, they weren't all 11th. You are right on 5 out of 14, though. The Malaysian player I had never heard of before, and will never hear of again, is one of your mob. 

Your argument is that LIV players being absent would diminish the event. Not this one, it wouldn't. The biggest contribution by a LIV player at the 2022 Open Championship was Poulter getting booed on the first tee. Or maybe DJ putting into a bunker, to be fair. Either way had no effect on the result. 

As for telling anyone they're irrelevant, perhaps not. But I wouldn't tell them that their absence diminishes the event either. It very likely doesn't.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That is some nice LIV maths there. The choice of top 11 is laughable. You are wrong that T11 is 11th - not a fact at all. 3 LIV players (plus another non-LIV) finished T11, they weren't all 11th. You are right on 5 out of 14, though. The Malaysian player I had never heard of before, and will never hear of again, is one of your mob.

Your argument is that LIV players being absent would diminish the event. Not this one, it wouldn't. The biggest contribution by a LIV player at the 2022 Open Championship was Poulter getting booed on the first tee. Or maybe DJ putting into a bunker, to be fair. Either way had no effect on the result.

As for telling anyone they're irrelevant, perhaps not. But I wouldn't tell them that their absence diminishes the event either. It very likely doesn't.
		
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You won’t hear of that Malaysian player again, cos he’s from Thailand 👍

Credible 7 under yesterday, 24 years old, won twice on the Asian Tour, I think you might be disrespecting his ability a little.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

As long as anyone, with any suggestion of being one of the worlds top 100 golfers is not in the open for a non golfing reason such as who pays them or what tour they play on, then the open would be compromised and devalued.
Someone would lift the jug. But we would all know they would not be an unarguable Champion Golfer of the year. It would be like winning a handicap troohy. The r&A will not dump 150 years of heritage and credibility for a commercial fight between to professional sports organisations. Zero chance.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You won’t hear of that Malaysian player again, cos he’s from Thailand 👍

Credible 7 under yesterday, 24 years old, won twice on the Asian Tour, I think you might be disrespecting his ability a little.
		
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OK, whatever. If he plays on the LIV Tour, I won't hear of him again.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, whatever. If he plays on the LIV Tour, I won't hear of him again.
		
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Unless you tune in to LIV... Which sounds unlikely


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You won’t hear of that Malaysian player again, cos he’s from Thailand 👍

Credible 7 under yesterday, 24 years old, won twice on the Asian Tour, I think you might be disrespecting his ability a little.
		
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It is a credible performance in his second major after missing the cut in his first 

Looking at his career he has done well on minor tour but it does show that doing well on the Asian Tour doesn’t come with a lot of ranking points with him just creeping into the top 100 with that 11th place 

But a long way to go for him - he could just as easily fade away and if Liv do get more people he would be one of the ones to miss out


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 18, 2022)

Think the heat is getting to a few people 🥵
Calm down,put your phones down for 5 minutes & pour yourself a nice beer 😂😂


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			As long as anyone, with any suggestion of being one of the worlds top 100 golfers is not in the open for a non golfing reason such as who pays them or what tour they play on, then the open would be compromised and devalued.
Someone would lift the jug. But we would all know they would not be an unarguable Champion Golfer of the year. It would be like winning a handicap troohy. The r&A will not dump 150 years of heritage and credibility for a commercial fight between to professional sports organisations. Zero chance.
		
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Tell me the genuine difference, to the value of the Championship, between a top 100 player missing it because of injury and missing it because he's unable to play due to a non golfing reason...?
The reason the player is missing it is completely irrelevant to the Championship. 
I doubt the top 100 has ever played in any Major so are you saying every Major should have an asterisk by it?


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Unless you tune in to LIV... *Which sounds unlikely *

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Yes it does. 

If they get decent fields and do away with some of the annoying aspects, maybe. It's not just that I think it a vulgar spectacle with wealthy golfers hoovering up obscene pots of money for weak limited field events while sportwashing a corrupt and amoral regime, I also just don't like some of the players. There isn't a player who has gone over that made me think "Damn, I'll miss that guy". Don't like Mickelson, never have, can't stand Reed the cheater, Na and Perez are welcome to obscurity and i always thought BdC would get bored and quit when he realised his power game didn't work as well as he thought.

The next one will be a defining event though, at Trump Bedminster. I don't expect the fractious media coverage to be any less for that one, and gratuitous coverage of Trump lording over it might lose some support.


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Saudis have put $400 million into The Asian tour already, all the LIV players need to do, assuming the bid for OWGR points is rejected, is co-ordinate enough Asian Tour events, when they can all play together in order to gain some OWGR points - The Open and The US Open, are already part of that tour.
Phil made a comment in an interview of the weekend when he was being questioned about LIV - parapharasing but it was something along the lines of "It will all become clear in a couple of years"

Maybe the plan is to grow The Asian Tour into something that rivals the PGA Tour, but that spreads itself across the globe - The Slaley Hall event this year was pretty much a low key event, but I'd imagine if it takes place next year, then could be much more relevant to world golf?
		
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That would be my thoughts on why the Asian Money List winner was dropped from getting an automatic spot in The Open. Shame for Wade Ormsby, but he'll simply have to console himself with getting loadsamoney from LIV - and good luck to him.
BTW. Are you sure it's 400M? The number I've seen (and from LIV) has always been 300M. Still a huge bung though!
Oh and wrt to growing the Asian Tour....It seems to me more like a, fairly selfish, aggressive takeover than an altruistic attempt to 'grow' the Asian Tour. I wouldn't be surprised if, with so much more LIV involvement,  it loses the auto-exemption for the winner of The Singapore Open - which was how Kaewkanjana qualified.


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## Reemul (Jul 18, 2022)

A couple of posters on her a bit like the chuckle brothers double act, anyone posts anything not in full support of the PGA Tour and up they pop, chuckle chuckle chuckle.

It seems a real shame that anyone posts anything not in line is jumped on immediately. It's really like the thought police and being shouted down by the loudest.

i like the PGA, I don't mind the LIV Tour, I watch some DP Tour, I want the best players to play the Majors and don't care where else they play, whatever makes them happy. It's golf, I don't care if they earn loads or nothing at all, yet you see all those posts about footballers stealing a living, hypocritical to the last some.

I am certainly fed up with some of the stuck up posters on here who seem to think their opinion and their opinion only is correct or all that matters. They really are a little precious and makes me wonder if really they are lot more worried about the issue as they sure respond quickly and efficently, a bit like mumsnet......


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Reemul said:



			A couple of posters on her a bit like the chuckle brothers double act, anyone posts anything not in full support of the PGA Tour and up they pop, chuckle chuckle chuckle.

It seems a real shame that anyone posts anything not in line is jumped on immediately. It's really like the thought police and being shouted down by the loudest.

i like the PGA, I don't mind the LIV Tour, I watch some DP Tour, I want the best players to play the Majors and don't care where else they play, whatever makes them happy. It's golf, I don't care if they earn loads or nothing at all, yet you see all those posts about footballers stealing a living, hypocritical to the last some.

I am certainly fed up with some of the stuck up posters on here who seem to think their opinion and their opinion only is correct or all that matters. They really are a little precious and makes me wonder if really they are lot more worried about the issue as they sure respond quickly and efficently, a bit like mumsnet......

Click to expand...

BUT THEY DONT GET RANKING POINTS!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549049204277972992
Fleetwood not going anywhere 


Seen that Stenson going is prob getting the worst reaction - he has been given an honour within the sport but turning his back on it for the money , guess still needs to replace the Stanford money 

If talk of Smith , Day , Matsyuma, Scott , Leishman , Cantlay all turn out to be true the question is - who misses out ? They wanted short fields and shotgun starts but surely must be close to being too many people ? 

Also how does a player get on the LIV tour 

If a player wants to play on the ET or PGA or indeed any other tour then they follow the qualifying process to enter into the tournaments and then also have a process to gain a tour card - so what’s the process for LIV , or is it a complete closed shop and invite only ? 

Is that not like the private clubs that many are very critical about ? How is it growing the game and bringing it to the masses


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549049204277972992
Fleetwood not going anywhere


Seen that Stenson going is prob getting the worst reaction - he has been given an honour within the sport but turning his back on it for the money , guess still needs to replace the Stanford money

If talk of Smith , Day , Matsyuma, Scott , Leishman , Cantlay all turn out to be true the question is - who misses out ? They wanted short fields and shotgun starts but surely must be close to being too many people ?

*Also how does a player get on the LIV tour*

If a player wants to play on the ET or PGA or indeed any other tour then they follow the qualifying process to enter into the tournaments and then also have a process to gain a tour card - so what’s the process for LIV , or is it a complete closed shop and invite only ?

Is that not like the private clubs that many are very critical about ? How is it growing the game and bringing it to the masses
		
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Get invited - but you already know that!

By the looks of the current LIV field, they're taking big names or up and coming talent - so you want to tick at least one of those boxes to get an invite.

Who misses out? The lesser known players/ the ones shooting rubbish scores every tournament - so Mickleson may be for the chop soon 

LIV do want to work alongside the PGA though don't they - so down the line maybe things could change and they cherry pick from there instead, depends if the PGA stick with their stance or budge if/ when players keep moving across. - That's the really interesting side of things here!


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Get invited - but you already know that!

By the looks of the current LIV field, they're taking big names or up and coming talent - so you want to tick at least one of those boxes to get an invite.

Who misses out? The lesser known players/ the ones shooting rubbish scores every tournament - so Mickleson may be for the *chop* soon 

LIV do want to work alongside the PGA though don't they - so down the line maybe things could change and they cherry pick from there instead, depends if the PGA stick with their stance or budge if/ when players keep moving across. - That's the really interesting side of things here!
		
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You may want to rephrase that....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Get invited - but you already know that!

By the looks of the current LIV field, they're taking big names or up and coming talent - so you want to tick at least one of those boxes to get an invite.

Who misses out? The lesser known players/ the ones shooting rubbish scores every tournament - so Mickleson may be for the chop soon 

LIV do want to work alongside the PGA though don't they - so down the line maybe things could change and they cherry pick from there instead, depends if the PGA stick with their stance or budge if/ when players keep moving across. - That's the really interesting side of things here!
		
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So can you not see the issues ?

Golf has had plenty of image issues over the years in regards snobbery , lack of inclusivity, closed shop , rich man’s game , doesn’t appeal to grass roots etc

So LIV Tour is 

Invite only 
Players playing just for the money 
Closed shop 

Where as I thought that the whole idea of LIV tour was - growing the game , opening it up to the masses , inclusivity 

So is it not showing all the worst things about Golf ? 

Lots of work are being done by various tours in regards pathways for careers and building the sport at grassroots levels

The PGA and DP are far from perfect and many have been critical about both tours - but at least there is a known pathway 

LIv have taken plenty that are neither big name or upcoming talent but are happy to take a big load of money . 

What’s the vision 5 years down the line ? How many play in each event - what happens to those “discarded” as you say ? Will it always be a closed shop invite only ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can you not see the issues ?

Golf has had plenty of image issues over the years in regards snobbery , lack of inclusivity, closed shop , rich man’s game , doesn’t appeal to grass roots etc

So LIV Tour is

Invite only
Players playing just for the money
Closed shop

Where as I thought that the whole idea of LIV tour was - growing the game , opening it up to the masses , inclusivity

So is it not showing all the worst things about Golf ?

Lots of work are being done by various tours in regards pathways for careers and building the sport at grassroots levels

The PGA and DP are far from perfect and many have been critical about both tours - but at least there is a known pathway

LIv have taken plenty that are neither big name or upcoming talent but are happy to take a big load of money .

What’s the vision 5 years down the line ? How many play in each event - what happens to those “discarded” as you say ? Will it always be a closed shop invite only ?
		
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You'll just have to keep watching to find out Phil?

But when you have to pay 6500 dollars out to just attempt to qualify for the KFT, the PGA can't be taken seriously as bastions of pathways and growing the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You'll just have to keep watching to find out Phil?

But when you have to pay 6500 dollars out to just attempt to qualify for the KFT, the PGA can't be taken seriously as bastions of pathways and growing the game.
		
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Why do you just ignore most parts of peoples posts ? 

“Have to keep watching” ? Is that code for that you/they don’t have a clue 

Are entry fees not part and parcel of the game below the tours ? How else do they get funding ? 

You pay to enter pro ams , junior tours etc.

What is LIV Tour pathway ? You’re critical of the other tours but how does someone qualify to play on the LIV tour ?


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## Bdill93 (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can you not see the issues ?

Golf has had plenty of image issues over the years in regards snobbery , lack of inclusivity, closed shop , rich man’s game , doesn’t appeal to grass roots etc

So LIV Tour is

Invite only
Players playing just for the money
Closed shop

Where as I thought that the whole idea of LIV tour was - growing the game , opening it up to the masses , inclusivity

So is it not showing all the worst things about Golf ?

Lots of work are being done by various tours in regards pathways for careers and building the sport at grassroots levels

The PGA and DP are far from perfect and many have been critical about both tours - but at least there is a known pathway

LIv have taken plenty that are neither big name or upcoming talent but are happy to take a big load of money .

What’s the vision 5 years down the line ? How many play in each event - what happens to those “discarded” as you say ? Will it always be a closed shop invite only ?
		
Click to expand...

Oh there's loads of questions but give it time and I'm sure they'll be answered (one way or another). They've hosted 2 events so far, its not like this has been the case for 10 years - things can change in a second because its privately owned. 

I suspect - although obviously just making spitball guesses here - that the LIV tour are doing their best to get OGWR points. That would be the single biggest game changer in this debate.

Without them its hard to put "qualifying criteria" out there - but I have no doubt they're working on it. If they fail, I suspect in time that the whole LIV tour will fail - but money talks doesn't it...


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you just ignore most parts of peoples posts ?

“Have to keep watching” ? Is that code for that you/they don’t have a clue

Are entry fees not part and parcel of the game below the tours ? How else do they get funding ?

You pay to enter pro ams , junior tours etc.

What is LIV Tour pathway ? You’re critical of the other tours but how does someone qualify to play on the LIV tour ?
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine the pathway plan to the LIV tour may well involve the planned expansion of the Asian Tours, and the tours that feed that - which have been expanded as part of the investment from the Saudis I beleive. 
They've already given plenty of opportunities to young players, so clearly are assesing young global talent. What was the pathway for Eugenio Chacarra - he performed well as an Amateur and got an offer from LIV, so anybody else that wants to get into the LIV series will know that's a possibility.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 18, 2022)

Well Stenson being poached is proof enough (of true) that they aren't interested in growing the game. It's about wrecking it.

People should be embarrassed backing this pile of crap.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

David Feherty has joined as part of the broadcast team. Can't say I know much about him but seems like a good addition for them.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			David Feherty has joined as part of the broadcast team. Can't say I know much about him but seems like a good addition for them.
		
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*rolls eyes*


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## Crow (Jul 18, 2022)

Stenson seems to be on his way and many appear to be shocked that he'd throw away the captaincy of the Ryder Cup to join LIV. 

I'd say that all professional golf is now purely about the money, and you could argue that it always has been but today money drives everything, even the amateur game.

The Ryder Cup is portrayed as the great match where no player gets paid but in reality they're all already millionaires and it's just a big money making machine for the European & US Associations (I'd write which associations but I don't know which and am neither interested nor can be bothered to find out).
It's been on pay-to-view TV for several years now to make even more money and hence I've not watched it for a long time and don't particularly care about who captains it and with each year I'm less interested in who even wins it too.

Golf has changed, some think for the better, some not, some sit on the fence, but it's changed.

Over the weekend people have been saying that The Open at St Andrews wasn't overpowered by modern technology and the money that drives it and that, whatever the score, the golf was good; it's modern golf.  Although I dislike it, I have to admit that this is modern golf and it's here to stay.
The R&A and USGA might talk about bringing distance back (whether they're serious or just paying lip service I don't know) but they won't be able to beat the money that now rules golf.

At the same event there were many posts decrying the shouting of inanities such as "Mashed Potato" etc, but that's a part of modern golf too, along with the pantomime that is the 16th at Phoenix, and professionals chugging beer at the Ryder Cup.

Yes, I might be an old man shouting at clouds, but for me modern golf is not as interesting as it was thirty or forty years ago.


The way that LIV has been greeted by the established tours threatens to tear professional golf apart, but is that necessarily a bad thing for us club players?

Something will emerge and it might be a whole lot better than what went before, it might also be rubbish but as someone who doesn't get the opportunity to watch much Pro golf I don't really care.

(Just to be clear, these are my opinions, not facts)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd imagine the pathway plan to the LIV tour may well involve the planned expansion of the Asian Tours, and the tours that feed that - which have been expanded as part of the investment from the Saudis I beleive.
		
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Is that the pathway ? So they are spending millions on players to appear in their events but would be ok to remove some of those to allow “qualifiers” from the Asia Tour to play instead ?

How will that work out with the players that have move tours ?




			They've already given plenty of opportunities to young players, so clearly are assesing young global talent. What was the pathway for Eugenio Chacarra - he performed well as an Amateur and got an offer from LIV, so anybody else that wants to get into the LIV series will know that's a possibility.
		
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He was still in college wasn’t he and was given opportunities on the PGA tour and had the same opportunity that the likes of Scheffler , Hovland , Rahm etc have followed from the US College system. He was paid to jump over all that to get instant money on the LIV tour. The lad was offered the chance to earn money quickly not to build a career.

It’s not like it’s a route - it’s all still invites and closed shop though isn’t it ?

Right now it’s a closed shop rich exhibition and that’s what the events are until something significant changes to the tour.



Barking_Mad said:



			Trump backing LIV. Class. 🧐

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...y-for-saudi-backed-tour/ar-AAZHLxX?li=BBnbfcL

Click to expand...

It’s no surprise - most of the events are on his courses and he prob isn’t pleased that the R&A and other governing bodies took established events away from his courses


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 18, 2022)

Trump backing LIV. Class. 🧐

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...y-for-saudi-backed-tour/ar-AAZHLxX?li=BBnbfcL


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the pathway ? So they are spending millions on players to appear in their events but would be ok to remove some of those to allow “qualifiers” from the Asia Tour to play instead ?

How will that work out with the players that have move tours ?



He was still in college wasn’t he and was given opportunities on the PGA tour and had the same opportunity that the likes of Scheffler , Hovland , Rahm etc have followed from the US College system. He was paid to jump over all that to get instant money on the LIV tour. The lad was offered the chance to earn money quickly not to build a career.

It’s not like it’s a route - it’s all still invites and closed shop though isn’t it ?

Right now it’s a closed shop rich exhibition and that’s what the events are until something significant changes to the tour.
		
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It's 2 events old Phil, I've no idea what the pathway is, but depending on the growing success of the series, I'm pretty sure they'll have several different plans in place... Asian Tour could play the supporting role, LIV feeder series based around the world? Who knows...

I know this though, the series will dominate golf media for pretty much the rest of the year.


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Trump backing LIV. Class. 🧐

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...y-for-saudi-backed-tour/ar-AAZHLxX?li=BBnbfcL

Click to expand...

In my opinion.....says everything you need to know.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 18, 2022)

Word is they're all going to turn up en masse at an Asian Tour event to bump up the ranking points.


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## Reemul (Jul 18, 2022)

Imurg said:



			In my opinion.....says everything you need to know.
		
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So if he backed the PGA Tour would you think the same or does it just fit the narrative you are after.

If some thoroughly decent and nice chap supports it does that override it or not?

It's just so lame out there at the moment. Ooh look he's a moron and supports it, that makes it rubbish, oh well he is also a moron and supports the other side, ooh does that make both sides moronic.

It's like my 10 year old arguing with his 10 year old mates, mines better than yours, no mine is, your mate is smelly, is not, yours is dirty.

Does no one read their posts and think what I am saying and the way I am behaving think, this is pathetic............

It's like the posters are behaving worse than the golfers and using it to defend their choice..............


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Trump backing LIV. Class. 🧐

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...y-for-saudi-backed-tour/ar-AAZHLxX?li=BBnbfcL

Click to expand...

Trump has a chip on his shoulder at the PGA Tour for switching the WGC event away from Doral to Mexico a few years ago.

2 events at Trump courses, Bedminster and Doral. 

He may also have a french fry on his other shoulder at the R&A who made it clear The Open is not going to Turnberry while he owns it. 

He also has the moral and ethical flexibility that LIV golf appreciate.


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## Imurg (Jul 18, 2022)

Reemul said:



			So if he backed the PGA Tour would you think the same or does it just fit the narrative you are after.

If some thoroughly decent and nice chap supports it does that override it or not?

It's just so lame out there at the moment. Ooh look he's a moron and supports it, that makes it rubbish, oh well he is also a moron and supports the other side, ooh does that make both sides moronic.

It's like my 10 year old arguing with his 10 year old mates, mines better than yours, no mine is, your mate is smelly, is not, yours is dirty.

Does no one read their posts and think what I am saying and the way I am behaving think, this is pathetic............

It's like the posters are behaving worse than the golfers and using it to defend their choice..............
		
Click to expand...

If Trump supported anything else I'd have the same view..
Are we not allowed opinions anymore?


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## timd77 (Jul 18, 2022)

I went on holiday a week ago, we were on 185 pages, had a little bet with myself and predicted we’d be up to 215 by the time I go back, disappointed to see you’ve only got to 203 pages! Currently at Rhodes airport, you’ve got about 6 hours to clock some more pages up!


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## Dando (Jul 18, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Didn’t know they had a forum, I’ll have to consult with my manager,
		
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How many pink castle tees are they offering you to join?


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## Oddsocks (Jul 18, 2022)

Dando said:



			How many pink castle tees are they offering you to join?
		
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You could not comprehend the package, they have even thrown in a snickers and a can of Dr Pepper!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

timd77 said:



			I went on holiday a week ago, we were on 185 pages, had a little bet with myself and predicted we’d be up to 215 by the time I go back, disappointed to see you’ve only got to 203 pages! Currently at Rhodes airport, you’ve got about 6 hours to clock some more pages up!
		
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I'll DM Greg and tell him to make some announcements to spice things up a little.


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Oh there's loads of questions but give it time and I'm sure they'll be answered (one way or another). They've hosted 2 events so far, its not like this has been the case for 10 years - things can change in a second because its privately owned.

I suspect - although obviously just making spitball guesses here - that the LIV tour are doing their best to get OGWR points. That would be the single biggest game changer in this debate.

Without them its hard to put "qualifying criteria" out there - but I have no doubt they're working on it. If they fail, I suspect in time that the whole LIV tour will fail - but money talks doesn't it...
		
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Agreed!
That's why they are 'buying' a Tour that already has access to OWGR points.


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## IainP (Jul 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can you not see the issues ?

Golf has had plenty of image issues over the years in regards snobbery , lack of inclusivity, closed shop , rich man’s game , doesn’t appeal to grass roots etc

So LIV Tour is

Invite only
Players playing just for the money
Closed shop

Where as I thought that the whole idea of LIV tour was - growing the game , opening it up to the masses , inclusivity

So is it not showing all the worst things about Golf ?

Lots of work are being done by various tours in regards pathways for careers and building the sport at grassroots levels

The PGA and DP are far from perfect and many have been critical about both tours - but at least there is a known pathway

LIv have taken plenty that are neither big name or upcoming talent but are happy to take a big load of money .

What’s the vision 5 years down the line ? How many play in each event - what happens to those “discarded” as you say ? Will it always be a closed shop invite only ?
		
Click to expand...

Personally I'm not a fan of invite things, and would agree clear criteria is best in all cases.
But I'm also realistic, it does look like (unsurprisingly) the established business entities were not wishing to welcome liv, so the likely only choice was to become a disruptor. The current 'invite only' is largely 'who can be pursuaded to gamble on playing'.
I agree some kind of roadmap would likely help their cause. In reality though so much of that is out of their control currently (which players gamble, how other tours react, rankings decisions, major qual decisions). I have the feeling at the moment there is a large amount of 'playing it by ear' as things unfold.

It is easy to find fault,  but do you have any suggestions to what they should be doing?
I wondered about a 'feeder liv' something, but that would probably antagonise the existing tours even more. Tricky. But ultimately not something that affects me when I tee it up on a weekend.


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

timd77 said:



			I went on holiday a week ago, we were on 185 pages, had a little bet with myself and predicted we’d be up to 215 by the time I go back, disappointed to see you’ve only got to 203 pages! Currently at Rhodes airport, you’ve got about 6 hours to clock some more pages up!
		
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You didn't allow for the 3 or 4 days of 'holiday' that Mel had (or was told to have) a break from this thread, while The Open was on. You'd have seriously underestimated otherwise!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			Personally I'm not a fan of invite things, and would agree clear criteria is best in all cases.
But I'm also realistic, it does look like (unsurprisingly) the established business entities were not wishing to welcome liv, so the likely only choice was to become a disruptor. The current 'invite only' is largely 'who can be pursuaded to gamble on playing'.
I agree some kind of roadmap would likely help their cause. In reality though so much of that is out of their control currently (which players gamble, how other tours react, rankings decisions, major qual decisions). I have the feeling at the moment there is a large amount of 'playing it by ear' as things unfold.

It is easy to find fault,  but do you have any suggestions to what they should be doing?
I wondered about a 'feeder liv' something, but that would probably antagonise the existing tours even more. Tricky. But ultimately not something that affects me when I tee it up on a weekend.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of it will rely on how the OWGR etc react as you - i think for them to become more established they would need the ranking points and entry into the majors etc

As for what they should be doing 

It’s ultimately Saudis sportswashing to help clean their image but the first mistake that was made imo was jumping in with Greg Norman - that imo was a critical error

What they should have done imo is take over the Asian Tour and then look to build the events up - make partnerships with Japan , Asia-Pacific and Australia PGA - all low key to start with but then build up looking to get partners with the ET and PGA with the aim of potentially growing the WGC’s to be more truely global - 1 in each continent with places open for the top 25 in each main tour etc - that imo would have allowed the tours to build , have the WGC as the world tour events and then the Majors

but that would have taken time and instead with Norman at the helm it’s just a case of trying to bully and buy their way past everyone and imo that’s why everyone has reacted and why it’s going to get worse


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## JamesR (Jul 18, 2022)

So David Feherty has signed for LIV…they’re getting even older🤣


Yes I know he’s gone as comms


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2022)

JamesR said:



			So David Feherty has signed for LIV…they’re getting even older🤣


Yes I know he’s gone as comms
		
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Feherty had run out of career options in the US. It makes sense for him.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			You didn't allow for the 3 or 4 days of 'holiday' that Mel had (or was told to have) a break from this thread, while The Open was on. You'd have seriously underestimated otherwise!
		
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Had, not told 👍


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## timd77 (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'll DM Greg and tell him to make some announcements to spice things up a little. 

Click to expand...

Flippin knew it! 🤣


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## Depreston (Jul 18, 2022)

JamesR said:



			So David Feherty has signed for LIV…they’re getting even older🤣


Yes I know he’s gone as comms
		
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Can’t stand him me …. Absolute wrangun 

Played for Europe but now supports US at Ryder cups says it all about him


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## sunshine (Jul 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Aren't marshalls at most tournaments unpaid volunteers? You get a cap, polo shirts, waterproof jacket and vouchers for your food. You also get to see pro golfers close up, inside the ropes. As amateur golfers, that's a blast isn't it? No shortage of volunteers when they had the British Masters at Close House, up here.
		
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But admission to the liv events was free, so these people are working for no extra benefit, while everyone else working there (players, caddies etc) are raking in obscene amounts of money. Mugs!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

Srixon to sponsor an all Japanese team including Hideki apparently. 👍


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Feherty had run out of career options in the US. It makes sense for him.
		
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He'll still be an improvement on what LIV has had up until now. As long has he doesn't stress the ridiculous team event feature.
Commentators have been diabolical, imo, up until now.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Would the view that the LIV commentators have been diabolical be the prevailing view here ?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Srixon to sponsor an all Japanese team including Hideki apparently. 👍
		
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Source? It would be nice if you could provide one for all of your announcements!


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Would the view that the LIV commentators have been diabolical be the prevailing view here ?
		
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I have a small amount of sympathy for them, as part of the shambles is caused by the Shotgun Start - so pretty much everyone is at the same stage of the round. So the coverage is ducking and diving across multiple holes and groups. That still doesn't excuse the amount of pushing of the team event they've obviously been told to do though.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Source? It would be nice if you could provide one for all of your announcements!
		
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Picked it up from twitter, hardly an announcemnt BiM, hence the 'apparently' in there. 

Be an interesting devlopment if it happened, and an indication of the way the series will explore new avenues in the way the game is promoted.


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## JamesR (Jul 18, 2022)

Interesting development. Apparently several big name LIVers want to return to the PGA tour.


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## Backsticks (Jul 18, 2022)

Possible rumours that they are not finding team golf all it was cracked up to be being the main factor seemingly.


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Source? It would be nice if you could provide one for all of your announcements!
		
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I just assume LIV internal newsletter/rumour factory.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Interesting development. Apparently several big name LIVers want to return to the PGA tour.
		
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Which ones, and where are you hearing that?

Will be interesting to see what happens with regards to any legal action from LIV if anyone does try to leave. Wonder how water tight the contracts they signed we're.


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Possible rumours that they are not finding team golf all it was cracked up to be being the main factor seemingly.
		
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I can't see that being a credible reason. Unless the payment structure is not as simple as it seems at face value.
For example....It might be that individual payments are offset against the original guarantee/sign-on amount and the team event is where the players actually receive cash.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I can't see that being a credible reason. Unless the payment structure is not as simple as it seems at face value.
For example....It might be that individual payments are offset against the original guarantee/sign-on amount and the team event is where the players actually receive cash.
		
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I was wondering about this. If BdC was promised £300 million (don't know if that's the correct amount but using it as an example) is that minimum with any winnings on top? Or is it £300 million guaranteed but winnings are deducted from that number?


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## RRidges (Jul 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was wondering about this. If BdC was promised £300 million (don't know if that's the correct amount but using it as an example) is that minimum with any winnings on top? Or is it £300 million guaranteed but winnings are deducted from that number?
		
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All hush-hush for obvious reasons. With GN pulling the strings, nothing would surprise me. He's a canny businessman!


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## 4LEX (Jul 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			All hush-hush for obvious reasons. With GN pulling the strings, nothing would surprise me. He's a* canny businessman*!
		
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No he's not. He's a fraud operating on an almost unlimited budget. The average GCSE Business Studies student would do a better job.


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

4LEX said:



			No he's not. He's a fraud operating on an almost unlimited budget. The average GCSE Business Studies student would do a better job.
		
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Some how I doubt that! Check this link out https://caknowledge.com/greg-norman-net-worth/
Though, like many successful businessmen, he's a bad loser and a grudge-holder, especially where the PGA Tour is concerned. He apparently proposed a similar format tour some time ago, but could never make it work because the finance wasn't forthcoming. That doesn't seem to be a problem now.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			He'll still be an improvement on what LIV has had up until now. As long has he doesn't stress the ridiculous team event feature.
Commentators have been diabolical, imo, up until now.
		
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I like Feherty, my fellow Norn Iron mucker. He has had a difficult time with his son dying of drugs/alcohol and his own battle with same. He was a very good player who probably could have achieved more, and is a funny guy.

He tells a story about playing as a young assistant in a local event on a wet and windy day on the Ards peninsula. Hits a shot into rough, hacks it out into even worse stuff, probably lost. Drops a provo backwards over his shoulder, as you did then. Turns round, can't find it. Searches for a bit, has to drop another, plays 6. Later, rain stops, he takes off his rain jacket and a ball drops out of the hood.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

The Trump element is an interesting aspect. The sight of Trump lording over this whilst an enquiry about how he allegedly fomented a coup on his own nation is running might be too much for some Americans to stomach. They say you can judge a person by the company it keeps. In allying with Trump, it shows itself to be amoral, unethical and utterly mercenary. Not sure that is quite the image they need.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The Trump element is an interesting aspect. The sight of Trump lording over this whilst an enquiry about how he allegedly fomented a coup on his own nation is running might be too much for some Americans to stomach. They say you can judge a person by the company it keeps. In allying with Trump, it shows itself to be amoral, unethical and utterly mercenary. Not sure that is quite the image they need.
		
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As much as I hate trump I can't bring myself to judge those who either have played with him or back him.

For example people I respect who have done it

Rory
Tiger
DJ
Jack (publically backed him for re-election)
Daly
Ernie
Matsuyama
JT
Bryson
Player


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			As much as I hate trump I can't bring myself to judge those who either have played with him or back him.

For example people I respect who have done it

Rory
Tiger
DJ
Jack (publically backed him for re-election)
Daly
Ernie
Matsuyama
JT
Bryson
Player
		
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At least some of those were before the Jan 6 Capitol riots and his denial he lost the election. PGA Tour (and ex-PGA Tour) players are overwhelmingly Republican, and I expect some would consider it discourteous to refuse an invite to play with the President. I doubt so many would do it again now. 

This is more about the LIV Tour association and what it says about them.


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## RW1986 (Jul 19, 2022)

It's starting to look like the Liv Golf tour could be the main tour next year.


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2022)

Please excuse my ignorance but where is this link with Trump coming from?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Steady on the political discussions chaps, we don’t any more of this on here ;-)


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Please excuse my ignorance but where is this link with Trump coming from?
		
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2 events coming up, next one at Trump Bedminster, later one at Trump Doral.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Please excuse my ignorance but where is this link with Trump coming from?
		
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Their next tournament is at one of his courses in the US.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Steady on the political discussions chaps, we don’t any more of this on here ;-)
	View attachment 43530

Click to expand...


Trump is not a politician any more. Still, good to see that your instinct is to censor debate rather than try to justify Trumps' involvement. You may be evolving. A small bit.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Trump is not a politician any more. Still, good to see that your instinct is to censor debate rather than try to justify Trumps' involvement. You may be evolving. A small bit.
		
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Ok, so let’s talk about Trump the man, rather than his political moves.

Guaranteed he’ll be there in some capacity next week, which some people will love, and some will hate. 

It all adds to the media focus of course, which yet again, will divert attention away from other golf events globally.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Please excuse my ignorance but where is this link with Trump coming from?
		
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He recently said that people should take the LIV money


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549204117729734656
Then there has been the obvious backlash


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549232734500970498


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2022)

Right, so another massive over reaction then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Right, so another massive over reaction then?
		
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When it comes to Trump it’s pretty much standard for it to be some overreaction 

Trump would love nothing better than sticking fingers up at the governing bodies - they have removed majors comps from him so it’s no surprise that he will be involved in LIV -it wouldn’t surprise me if a “links” comp is held next year at Turnberry and the timing could be interesting 

The whole 9/11 issue is very much a touchy angle to use to be critical of LIV tour , the bombers were from Saudi Arabia so it’s not going down well


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, so let’s talk about Trump the man, rather than his political moves.

Guaranteed he’ll be there in some capacity next week, which some people will love, and some will hate.

It all adds to the media focus of course, which yet again, will divert attention away from other golf events globally.
		
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Sticking to golf, Trump is a well known golf cheat and owner of a very dodgy handicap (last I heard 2.9). Those alone should make golf partners run a mile. 

His courses (even some of those built before he bought them have been tarted up) are also rather vulgar and wave money in your face, so I suppose it is on-brand for LIV Golf.


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes to Trump it’s pretty much standard for it to be some overreaction 

Trump would love nothing better than sticking fingers up at the governing bodies - they have removed majors comps from him so it’s no surprise that he will be involved in LIV -it wouldn’t surprise me if a “links” comp is held next year at Turnberry and the timing could be interesting 

The whole 9/11 issue is very much a touchy angle to use to be critical of LIV tour , the bombers were from Saudi Arabia so it’s not going down well
		
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I agree about Trump, if he shows his face and gets involved then it can’t be good optics.
Re 911 I really don’t know where I stand on this, I have the greatest sympathy for the families of the victims but I can’t help feeling they’re playing on emotional blackmail to get the headlines.
Yes, a lot of the bombers were from Saudi but to tar every Saudi national with that brush doesn’t sit right with me. I worked there in the mid 90s and the people were lovely, really generous and friendly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I agree about Trump, if he shows his face and gets involved then it can’t be good optics.
Re 911 I really don’t know where I stand on this, I have the greatest sympathy for the families of the victims but I can’t help feeling they’re playing on emotional blackmail to get the headlines.
Yes, a lot of the bombers were from Saudi but to tar every Saudi national with that brush doesn’t sit right with me. I worked there in the mid 90s and the people were lovely, really generous and friendly.
		
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It’s hard for the 9/11 card for the US to use when someone is over there trying to get deals on oil 

I did a couple of tours in Riyadh and Dhahran in the 90’s - locals were superb to the guys there - my dad worked for BAE there for a decade , left after the terrorist bombings and then it went downhill.

They then accelerated things to keep up with the UAE and the area started sports washing 

Still think that if they had someone else instead of Greg Norman this whole thing could have been so much better - heard Mark King maybe getting involved


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I agree about Trump, if he shows his face and gets involved then it can’t be good optics.
Re 911 I really don’t know where I stand on this, I have the greatest sympathy for the families of the victims but I can’t help feeling they’re playing on emotional blackmail to get the headlines.
Yes, a lot of the bombers were from Saudi but to tar every Saudi national with that brush doesn’t sit right with me. I worked there in the mid 90s and the people were lovely, really generous and friendly.
		
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The issue is that some of the 9/11 families, and some in the CIA/FBI, believe the Saudi royal family were much closer to some of the bombers than the Saudis would like to admit. It isn't about concerns with all Saudis, just the ruling family and their acolytes.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s hard for the 9/11 card for the US to use when someone is over there trying to get deals on oil

I did a couple of tours in Riyadh and Dhahran in the 90’s - locals were superb to the guys there - my dad worked for BAE there for a decade , left after the terrorist bombings and then it went downhill.

They then accelerated things to keep up with the UAE and the area started sports washing

Still think that if they had someone else instead of Greg Norman this whole thing could have been so much better - heard *Mark King* maybe getting involved
		
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In between revival tours for Level 42?


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The issue is that some of the 9/11 families, and some in the CIA/FBI, believe the Saudi royal family were much closer to some of the bombers than the Saudis would like to admit. It isn't about concerns with all Saudis, just the ruling family and their acolytes.
		
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Well yes, i did a quick Google on that angle earlier, according to FBI files there are no "obvious" links between the bombers and the Saudi state. Again I have every sympathy with the families but these sort of conspiracy theories don't help at all.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I agree about Trump, if he shows his face and gets involved then it can’t be good optics.
Re 911 I really don’t know where I stand on this, I have the greatest sympathy for the families of the victims but I can’t help feeling they’re playing on emotional blackmail to get the headlines.
Yes, a lot of the bombers were from Saudi but to tar every Saudi national with that brush doesn’t sit right with me. I worked there in the mid 90s and the people were lovely, really generous and friendly.
		
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Joe Biden fist pumped the Crown Prince just a matter of days  ago. The US are incredibly close to Saudi. It's all very selective.

I've done business with pretty much every country out there, ironically enough not Saudi so far, and one thing I have learnt is that everyday people are the same all over. The noise that comes from certain countries, the sharp politics etc rarely comes from the masses. They just want to live their lives, look after their families, same as all of us.


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Joe Biden fist pumped the Crown Prince just a matter of days  ago.
		
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I never realised Joe Biden was a Toon fan 🤔😂😂😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I never realised Joe Biden was a Toon fan 🤔😂😂😂
		
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Apparently he said the meeting went canny 

He will be sat in the oval office wearing the black and white stripes come the new season .


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Well yes, i did a quick Google on that angle earlier, according to FBI files there are no "obvious" links between the bombers and the Saudi state. Again I have every sympathy with the families but these sort of conspiracy theories don't help at all.
		
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All the conspiracy’s for 9/11 are both disgusting and dangerous - but imo it’s typical US behaviour - always need to find some way that it wasn’t a terrorist attack. 

The Royal Family have had very close links to the US/UK/NATO etc - would have had nothing to do with 9/11


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## IanM (Jul 19, 2022)

Go and tell your boss you're switching companies for miles more cash,  but still want to work on the top 4 sexy projects, attend the Xmas Do and stay in the pension scheme.

And you're doing it to help underprivileged kids.

Yep.  Baloney. 

Go and play LIV if you like.  But you won't qualify for ranking points as you're now on a 54 hole reality TV show.   

Hence,  you won't get in the Majors, unless already qualified.  (No need to ban folk who qualify anyway,  that looks like sour grapes) 

I think folk should be able to maximise their earnings as they see fit.  But if you've jumped ship, you've jumped ship.  I'd also have more respect got the LIV Players if they ran the "Harry Enfield Loadsamoney" character speech when asked about it.


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## Slab (Jul 19, 2022)

I’m still neither for or against LIV (I don’t mind if its there or if its not) but as the ET season finale tour championship in Dubai is now giving away tickets to the general public, perhaps when it cycles round again (as it surely will) folks could drop that aspect from the discussion as it seems it is not uncommon for tickets to be given away


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Trump is not a politician any more. Still, good to see that your instinct is to censor debate rather than try to justify Trumps' involvement. You may be evolving. A small bit.
		
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Trump never was a politician; a dictator and a bully yes, but never a politician.


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## IanM (Jul 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Trump never was a politician; a dictator and a bully yes, but never a politician.
		
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On the basis he won (and lost) a free vote, he was definitely the first, never the second and discussion of the third is outside the scope of the forum and LIV!


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## Sats (Jul 19, 2022)

Can't say I'm really bothered about the PGA/DP/LIV - whining on about it is going to do the sum of nothing.


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## C7usk (Jul 19, 2022)

IanM said:



			Go and tell your boss you're switching companies for miles more cash,  but still want to work on the top 4 sexy projects, attend the Xmas Do and stay in the pension scheme.

And you're doing it to help underprivileged kids.

Yep.  Baloney.

Go and play LIV if you like.  But you won't qualify for ranking points as you're now on a 54 hole reality TV show.  

Hence,  you won't get in the Majors, unless already qualified.  (No need to ban folk who qualify anyway,  that looks like sour grapes)

I think folk should be able to maximise their earnings as they see fit.  But if you've jumped ship, you've jumped ship.  I'd also have more respect got the LIV Players if they ran the "Harry Enfield Loadsamoney" character speech when asked about it.
		
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Totally agree, if they were all honest and said they are doing it for the money you would have a lot more respect for them... Growing the game of golf? 🤔...I don't think so... 
I get it though, almost everyone has their number and when the numbers are so high then its got to be difficult to turn down. I haven't been too bothered with the players who have went so far, but Cam Smith, if he goes, is a different matter.. He is obviously at the top of the game so would be a significant loss from the tour...


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## Backsticks (Jul 19, 2022)

Extending your job analogy though, does it not also highlight the mistaken thinking about access to the majors.
Yes, you can no longer stay on the nice projects or go the Xmas party once you leave that organisation. But it doesn't follow that your golf club will no longer have you as a member,your local pub let you in the door, or your friends have you over for dinner.

The majors use the owgr points as a tool, for objectivity and convenience and an ensurance that the best golfers are filtered into their starting field. Once that tool becomes less effective, if LIV golfers are not being filtered into their field, then they will modify their filter.


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## Backsticks (Jul 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Think this one through. Say the worlds top 48 went Saudi. Would the r&A simply say : they made their choice, so no Open for them. NO chance. Why would they.
		
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Have any of the believers in the theory that the r&A would exclude, or try to exclude, or not make an entry path for Saudi tour golfers into the Open a real belief that the above would come about ?


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

Cam Smith is a player who could turn the tables. Rory is another, possibly Morikawa too. 

Although he is no 1, not sure if Scheffler alone would move the needle.

A couple of Rahm, Thomas, Schauffele would also make a big difference.


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## JamesR (Jul 19, 2022)

Asian Tour no 1 given PGA tour special temporary membership, and accepts.
Always been his dream to play on the PGA tour, apparently.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549419367699562502


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## rksquire (Jul 19, 2022)

Completely forgot the Open was on, too busy watching the strengthened DPWT /  PGA alliance Barracuda Open 

The morals, or lack thereof, regarding the greed and money of the LIV defectors is becoming less of a factor; the increase in purses, already pretty significant, in the PGA Tour compounded by the 22% increase to the Open winner.... I think at most other times, given the cost of living crisis and austerity etc., this would have ill timed and criticised.  Money is king for these players, the FED Ex Cup may say 'points' but the standings is $ based; the Race to Dubai system just a fancy way of saying the leading money winner.  It's always been about the money and how to make the best rich players richer.

Re: Trump and his encouragement / facilitation of LIV - don't think anyone should be surprised. Or indeed with Biden fist bumping others.  I've given up on the American political system - it honestly plays out like 200 pages of a golf forum except causes actual real harm in the real world.  Hope Trump is the Honorary starter at the weekend, I'd like to get an idea what his golf game is really like!

_I see a lot of questions about the LIV format and sustainability etc., I've no idea what is planned but it is possible to think of solutions, albeit I've never planned a golf tournament / tour.  But you can easy have 72 players play a shotgun event.  Also, because it's shotgun and there's enough daylight you could play 2 shotgun events 6 hours apart in the same day (not at St. Andrew's obviously).  After day 2, take the bottom 72 and let them play out for a 'shield'.  Still golf on the course, spectators get to see all the players etc., but it's subservient to the main event. The top 72 play out for the big bucks.  Complete nonsense of course, my point is with a little bit of creativity it is possible to extend the field to 144 participants, getting 54 holes out of all involved._



RRidges said:



			I can't see that being a credible reason. Unless the payment structure is not as simple as it seems at face value.
For example....It might be that individual payments are offset against the original guarantee/sign-on amount and the team event is where the players actually receive cash.
		
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Didn't the lady who hosts the LIV pressers clarify this after the journos seemed to stump BDC with this question?  To paraphrase, pretty sure she said "prize money on top of other monies".  

Ryder Cup and Majors clearly mean much more to the fans than most players (appreciate there are exceptions - I would have thought Poulter one such exception but clearly wrong).  If Smith, Hideki and Cantlay go I feel there will have to be discussions - there'll be no question marks on Majors but there'll clearly be a lot of LIV noise pointing out who's missing resulting in, albeit indirectly, the credentials of said tournament.


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Didn't the lady who hosts the LIV pressers clarify this after the journos seemed to stump BDC with this question?  To paraphrase, pretty sure she said "prize money on top of other monies".
		
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She'll have simply stated what was on her prompt sheet. Doesn't mean ALL prize money goes to players. As I posted, it might simply be the Team earnings for example. The fact that BdC was stumped could suggest something along those lines. As I've already stated, Norman is no fool.
Should a disgruntled LIV player leave that tour, we may find out more, but I don't see that happening for a year or 2, in spite of rumours.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Should a disgruntled LIV player leave that tour, we may find out more, but I don't see that happening for a year or 2, in spite of rumours.
		
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I assume that there will be some disgruntled golfers among the original 48 that will be leaving the tour now that the "bigger" names have signed up. Will be interesting to see if any of them speak out now they're being discarded and no longer needed.


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Asian Tour no 1 given PGA tour special temporary membership, and accepts.
Always been his dream to play on the PGA tour, apparently.
		
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Good for Joohyung Kim, he's been playing well. 👍
Not sure it's really news though that PGAT 'creams off talent from elsewhere', it might be more newsworthy if the Asian Tour decides to ban him perhaps....😉


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## JamesR (Jul 19, 2022)

IainP said:



			Good for Joohyung Kim, he's been playing well. 👍
Not sure it's really news though that PGAT 'creams off talent from elsewhere', it might be more newsworthy if the Asian Tour decides to ban him perhaps....😉
		
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It’s newsworthy in that he chose the PGA tour rather than LIV.


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## Springveldt (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549419367699562502

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Isn’t he now exempt into the majors for 5 years? He could take the money and win more majors. 

Win, win then.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Isn’t he now exempt into the majors for 5 years? He could take the money and win more majors.

Win, win then.
		
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At the moment he has various exemptions through places and The Open win 

The only change would be if they change the exemptions or bring rules in about Tour membership etc


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume that there will be some disgruntled golfers among the original 48 that will be leaving the tour now that the "bigger" names have signed up. Will be interesting to see if any of them speak out now they're being discarded and no longer needed.
		
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There will likely be non-disclosure agreements and financial benefits/penalties involved that will discourage that sort of thing too.
And if you can excuse the poor taste, final payment might be available from nearest Saudi embassy!


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## Springveldt (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			At the moment he has various exemptions through places and The Open win

The only change would be if they change the exemptions or bring rules in about Tour membership etc
		
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That would be a bit petty though since the majors aren’t run by any tours though, wouldn’t it?


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It’s newsworthy in that he chose the PGA tour rather than LIV.
		
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Okay. I fully expect the PGA Tour to remain a big draw for many players, however this all pans out. It does highlight there's likely a lot more water to go under the bridge with this 'battle'


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume that there will be some disgruntled golfers among the original 48 that will be leaving the tour now that the "bigger" names have signed up. Will be interesting to see if any of them speak out now they're being discarded and no longer needed.
		
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I suspect there were two groups, those signed up with a commitment for a period of time,  and some just being 'invited' on an event by event basis.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/saudi-super-league.111261/post-2521547


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			That would be a bit petty though since the majors aren’t run by any tours though, wouldn’t it?
		
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Guess depends on what the majors want to do and how they feel about the whole issue

The majors may not be run by the tours but there is a strong link between the two

R&A clearly weren’t happy about it all hence the requests to Mickleson and Norman- the whole issue is a bit of a stain on the sport and the majors don’t want that -

If it’s not sorted by the Masters I can see them making a stand - what sort of stand that is could be key

this is a good thread on the ranking points and how it will affect some players 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549383944935972864


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess depends on what the majors want to do and how they feel about the whole issue

The majors may not be run by the tours but there is a strong link between the two

R&A clearly weren’t happy about it all hence the requests to Mickleson and Norman- the whole issue is a bit of a stain on the sport and the majors don’t want that -

If it’s not sorted by the Masters I can see them making a stand - what sort of stand that is could be key

this is a good thread on the ranking points and how it will affect some players


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549383944935972864

Click to expand...

Phil, it will come down to that thing called money. The majors will make their decision based on commercial interests. 

If the bottom line will be improved by having LIV players present, then LIV players will be present.


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess depends on what the majors want to do and how they feel about the whole issue

The majors may not be run by the tours but there is a strong link between the two

R&A clearly weren’t happy about it all hence the requests to Mickleson and Norman- the whole issue is a bit of a stain on the sport and the majors don’t want that -

If it’s not sorted by the Masters I can see them making a stand - what sort of stand that is could be key

this is a good thread on the ranking points and how it will affect some players


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549383944935972864

Click to expand...

Does the "Top 64-MP" represent the WGC Matchplay?
I'd kind if forgotten about them, assuming liv players were already banned from them, but suppose still up in the air.
OWGR has been a key part of the mix from the start,  agree eyes on Masters as it nears as none of this had broken last year.


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## sunshine (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apparently he said the meeting went canny 

He will be sat in the oval office wearing the black and white stripes come the new season .
		
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Although I think you'll find he'll be wearing a white and green strip from now on if he supports Newcastle


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, it will come down to that thing called money. The majors will make their decision based on commercial interests.

If the bottom line will be improved by having LIV players present, then LIV players will be present.
		
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The Masters won’t be thinking of the finances , neither will USGA etc -  it’s not always all about the bottom line - maybe LIV is like that hence your thinking that it’s just about money

The Master , The Open etc they are bigger than the LIV Tour and if they don’t want to invite any player that plays on the LIV Tour then they won’t - Augusta will still see out , Hoylake will still sell out , they will still have the same funding at both events



IainP said:



			Does the "Top 64-MP" represent the WGC Matchplay?
I'd kind if forgotten about them, assuming liv players were already banned from them, but suppose still up in the air.
OWGR has been a key part of the mix from the start,  agree eyes on Masters as it nears as none of this had broken last year.
		
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The WGCs are run by the PGA Tour along with the ET etc so at the moment I guess they won’t be playing in them


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## sunshine (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've done business with pretty much every country out there, ironically enough not Saudi so far, and one thing I have learnt is that everyday people are the same all over. The noise that comes from certain countries, the sharp politics etc rarely comes from the masses. They just want to live their lives, look after their families, same as all of us.
		
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Although I'm sure this is a true statement, it doesn't really have much to do with this thread 

Liv golf hasn't been set up to entertain the everyday masses in Saudi. If you wander down the streets of Riyadh will you find everyday people debating the strengths of the crushers v the majestiks? It's all about the elite rulers trying to buy popularity and credibility.


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Guess depends on what the majors want to do and how they feel about the whole issue

The majors may not be run by the tours but there is a strong link between the two

R&A clearly weren’t happy about it all hence the requests to Mickleson and Norman- the whole issue is a bit of a stain on the sport and the majors don’t want that -

If it’s not sorted by the Masters I can see them making a stand - what sort of stand that is could be key

this is a good thread on the ranking points and how it will affect some players


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549383944935972864

Click to expand...

I's not as simple as that - unless qualifying criteria change.
DJ qualifies for The Masters, for example, because he finished 12th this year. As does Charl Schwarzel (10th)
Oh, and anyone who finished in the top 50 of OWGR in the final week of previous year, so will likely cover a few more, if they can hang on until then.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Masters won’t be thinking of the finances , neither will USGA etc -  it’s not always all about the bottom line - maybe LIV is like that hence your thinking that it’s just about money

The Master , The Open etc they are bigger than the LIV Tour and if they don’t want to invite any player that plays on the LIV Tour then they won’t - Augusta will still see out , Hoylake will still sell out , they will still have the same funding at both events



The WGCs are run by the PGA Tour along with the ET etc so at the moment I guess they won’t be playing in them
		
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The Open sold out to Sky for the TV rights, it's been discussed plenty of times on here in the last few days - so it is about the bottom line unfortunately. 

And lets not lose sight of the commercial investors in golf, how long before they see LIV as a worthwhile investment - as i said earlier, LIV will dominate the golf media for pretty much the rest of the year - and potential sponsors will be aware of that.

The Majors will always be bigger than the LIV tour, and that's how it should be, but the tours themselves are vulnerable right now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I's not as simple as that - unless qualifying criteria change.
DJ qualifies for The Masters, for example, because he finished 12th this year. As does Charl Schwarzel (10th)
Oh, and anyone who finished in the top 50 of OWGR in the final week of previous year, so will likely cover a few more, if they can hang on until then.
		
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Both DJ and Scharw qualify because they have a green jacket 

The Masters Committee have full control on the Masters - if they decided that anyone who plays on the LIV Tour can’t play then they will do that , nothing will stop them - it’s their party their rules at the end of the day


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both DJ and Scharw qualify because they have a green jacket

The Masters Committee have full control on the Masters - if they decided that anyone who plays on the LIV Tour can’t play then they will do that , nothing will stop them - it’s their party their rules at the end of the day
		
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And why on earth would they do that - it would be the most ironic name for a sporting event ever. 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And why on earth would they do that - it would be the most ironic name for a sporting event ever. 😂
		
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If you can’t understand why then I guess you haven’t read anything people have posted 

Can you really not think of one reason why the Masters may do something ?


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## Red devil (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both DJ and Scharw qualify because they have a green jacket

The Masters Committee have full control on the Masters - if they decided that anyone who plays on the LIV Tour can’t play then they will do that , nothing will stop them - it’s their party their rules at the end of the day
		
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Correct. If you win the Masters its automatic invitation for life. Same applies to Garcia and Reed off the top of my hat


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## Backsticks (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both DJ and Scharw qualify because they have a green jacket

The Masters Committee have full control on the Masters - if they decided that anyone who plays on the LIV Tour can’t play then they will do that , nothing will stop them - it’s their party their rules at the end of the day
		
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True. But the corallary is that they will invite the worlds best golfers with no reference to where or how they earn their living.

Augusta was inviting whoever it wanted long before the owgr or such a concept was even dreamt of.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you can’t understand why then I guess you haven’t read anything people have posted

Can you really not think of one reason why the Masters may do something ?
		
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Well for a club steeped in selective racism, let’s hope they don’t attempt to take a moral stance against LIV players.


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both DJ and Scharw qualify because they have a green jacket

The Masters Committee have full control on the Masters - if they decided that anyone who plays on the LIV Tour can’t play then they will do that , nothing will stop them - it’s their party their rules at the end of the day
		
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Thanks. I couldn't be arsed checking that out. Still makes the chart you posted a bit misleading.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Thanks. I couldn't be arsed checking that out. Still makes the chart you posted a bit misleading.
		
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In what way is it misleading 🤷‍♂

It just shows where the players rankings could potentially and probably will be at certain periods because of being on the liv Tour


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well for a club steeped in selective racism, let’s hope they don’t attempt to take a moral stance against LIV players.
		
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Seems like justification for LIV players to boycott it. Perhaps you could suggest that to Greg.
Fortunately, that selective racism has now disappeared.
Oh and hang on...How many African American players are there in the LIV circus?


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## RRidges (Jul 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In what way is it misleading 🤷‍♂

It just shows where the players rankings could potentially and probably will be at certain periods because of being on the liv Tour
		
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But not the whole picture of who would qualify.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Although I'm sure this is a true statement, it doesn't really have much to do with this thread 

Liv golf hasn't been set up to entertain the everyday masses in Saudi. If you wander down the streets of Riyadh will you find everyday people debating the strengths of the crushers v the majestiks? It's all about the elite rulers trying to buy popularity and credibility.
		
Click to expand...

It relates to the post I was replying to 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Anybody figure out who those 3 white silouhettes are - Donald Trump possibly one  of them? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549495362502672391


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Stenson, Smith, Matsuyama ?

It still looks very weak, and no reason to watch it or consider it a viable alternative to the pgat. Its real players are still in the single digits, the rest are Champions tour effectively, or just no name placeholders Saudi will be hope to substitute out for real ranking players.

On the interest and viewing numbers for LIV so far and in the uocoming ones, how much of that is genuine golf interest, or, boosted by interest that is really just watching Saudi v PGAT as a contest itself ? People do like a battle. But that will not sustain interest in liv events if it doesnt inject at least 10 more serious players from the current owgr top 30 or so. Even then, it may only be a time limited thing, as the closed shop makes it inherently less relevant year by year. In a couple of years Phil and a few others, rather then just being past-its, will look more and more like the ceremonial starter group of the Masters.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Stenson, Smith, Matsuyama ?

It still looks very weak, and no reason to watch it or consider it a viable alternative to the pgat. Its real players are still in the single digits, the rest are Champions tour effectively, or just no name placeholders Saudi will be hope to substitute out for real ranking players.

On the interest and viewing numbers for LIV so far and in the uocoming ones, how much of that is genuine golf interest, or, boosted by interest that is really just watching Saudi v PGAT as a contest itself ? People do like a battle. But that will not sustain interest in liv events if it doesnt inject at least 10 more serious players from the current owgr top 30 or so. Even then, it may only be a time limited thing, as the closed shop makes it inherently less relevant year by year. In a couple of years Phil and a few others, rather then just being past-its, will look more and more like the ceremonial starter group of the Masters.
		
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I doubt Smith is one of them - the other two, Stenson is likely and Matsuyama a maybe I reckon. 

I think it's harsh to call it weak, when 5 of them finsihed strongly at The Open - this went under the radar a little on the back of Smiths excellent back nine but BDC made 6 birdies coming back in on Sunday. 
I know the names don't appeal to some, but they will in parts of the world where we don't associate ourselves with, and that is why these guys are there = to make this a truly global series. 
As for viewing numbers, who knows, but I do think you are underestimating the impact of LIV - 2 events in, I think it's been pretty well recieved, and you are slowly seeing people shift their opinion - with a lot of commentators now admitting it's here to stay and the tours need to find a way forward working with the series. 

I'd imagine the older players are already considering their options, for the future - they won't play in it forever, they'll know that, Norman will know that - as the series grows, you'll likely see them take up positions of possibly team owners, or even working onboard with LIV themselves. It's all new ground in a golf sense, and presents a lot of different opportunities.


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## Slab (Jul 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Stenson, Smith, Matsuyama ?

It still looks very weak,* and no reason to watch it or consider it a viable alternative to the pgat.* Its real players are still in the single digits, the rest are Champions tour effectively, or just no name placeholders Saudi will be hope to substitute out for real ranking players.

On the interest and viewing numbers for LIV so far and in the uocoming ones, how much of that is genuine golf interest, or, boosted by interest that is really just watching Saudi v PGAT as a contest itself ? People do like a battle. But that will not sustain interest in liv events if it doesnt inject at least 10 more serious players from the current owgr top 30 or so. Even then, it may only be a time limited thing, as the closed shop makes it inherently less relevant year by year. In a couple of years Phil and a few others, rather then just being past-its, will look more and more like the ceremonial starter group of the Masters.
		
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That phrasing caught my attention. I wonder if folks see it as an either/or scenario? So far I've kinda seen LIV as 'in addition to' 

I already watch golf from 5 or 6 different tours, and so far it's made no odds to me if LIV make that 7 diff tours, its just more golf on TV to choose from. Especially since most weeks (due to player scheduling) we don't get to see all (or even most) of the best players in the same comp anyway & means I rarely get all I want from a single Tour event (Majors aside) so its no detraction for me if say DJ or Bryson isn't in the same field as Rory or Spieth (more often than not 'they're' not in the same field week to week anyway)


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I doubt Smith is one of them - the other two, Stenson is likely and Matsuyama a maybe I reckon.

I think it's harsh to call it weak, when 5 of them finsihed strongly at The Open - this went under the radar a little on the back of Smiths excellent back nine but BDC made 6 birdies coming back in on Sunday.
I know the names don't appeal to some, but they will in parts of the world where we don't associate ourselves with, and that is why these guys are there = to make this a truly global series.
As for viewing numbers, who knows, but I do think you are underestimating the impact of LIV - 2 events in, I think it's been pretty well recieved, and you are slowly seeing people shift their opinion - with a lot of commentators now admitting it's here to stay and the tours need to find a way forward working with the series.

I'd imagine the older players are already considering their options, for the future - they won't play in it forever, they'll know that, Norman will know that - as the series grows, you'll likely see them take up positions of possibly team owners, or even working onboard with LIV themselves. It's all new ground in a golf sense, and presents a lot of different opportunities.
		
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None of the LIV golfers were in contention on Sunday. 

Stenson has been invisible on the PGA/DPWT lately. Matsuyama is a big name, though.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			None of the LIV golfers were in contention on Sunday.

Stenson has been invisible on the PGA/DPWT lately. Matsuyama is a big name, though.
		
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I said 5 of them had strong finishes which they did - in a massive event, the biggest arguably of the year.

Stenson will be being brought in to strengthen the appeal to Scandanavia - not for his form on the golf course.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I said 5 of them had strong finishes which they did - in a massive event, the biggest arguably of the year.

Stenson will be being brought in to strengthen the appeal to Scandanavia - not for his form on the golf course.
		
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Indeed, they were prominent amongst the also-rans. T11 usually goes under the radar unless it is Tiger, Rory or a shock amateur. I doubt that BdC, DJ or the like consider that a good week's work. 

So now LIV Golf is tacking from 'the best players' to 'those with specific market appeal'. Interesting. That sportwashing needs to cover all relevant markets, eh?


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Slab said:



			That phrasing caught my attention. I wonder if folks see it as an either/or scenario? So far I've kinda seen LIV as 'in addition to'

I already watch golf from 5 or 6 different tours, and so far it's made no odds to me if LIV make that 7 diff tours, its just more golf on TV to choose from. Especially since most weeks (due to player scheduling) we don't get to see all (or even most) of the best players in the same comp anyway & means I rarely get all I want from a single Tour event (Majors aside) so its no detraction for me if say DJ or Bryson isn't in the same field as Rory or Spieth (more often than not 'they're' not in the same field week to week anyway)
		
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Fair point. But I would say the market for MORE golf is very limited. I watch quite a bit. Pgat mainly , but far from all its tourneys. LPGA next, about 6-8 a year, and then 2 or 3 World tour events. If I had the inclination watch more, it would be more of the first two, or, something that was of that level or better. Leaving aside all the civil war or moral issues on LIV, it is still only offering DP level tourney, down graded by the 54 holes, teams crap, and youtube medium. If they recruited, 30 of the worlds top 40 then yes, it becomes interesting viewing, and I am in, ditching some pgat viewing. But I dont need more, and it isnt offering anything more interesting, rather its less interesting, that golf I already tyrn down. For context, guessing i watch 20-25 golf weekends a year to some extent each. Full on for the majors, the rest according to the field, course, my own time, etc


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So now LIV Golf is tacking from 'the best players' to 'those with specific market appeal'. Interesting. That sportwashing needs to cover all relevant markets, eh?
		
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Yes, that does sound like spin alright, making a virtue out of necessity like the free to the world on youtube line.


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## IainP (Jul 20, 2022)

For the guessing game, I'll go Stenson, Leishman,  Scott


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## BiMGuy (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I said 5 of them had strong finishes which they did - in a massive event, the biggest arguably of the year.

Stenson will be being brought in to strengthen the appeal to Scandanavia - not for his form on the golf course.
		
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Twaddle.

They have gone after Stenson because he is the RC captain. It’s pure spite from LiV. It does nothing to grow the game and he further diminishes the quality of their field.

Having a strong finish in one event is a spike not a trend.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Twaddle.

They have gone after Stenson because he is the RC captain. It’s pure spite from LiV. It does nothing to grow the game and he further diminishes the quality of their field.

Having a strong finish in one event is a spike not a trend.
		
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Maybe they have, and maybe it is spite, but then, I’d argue that the tours have shown nothing but spite towards LIV, so an eye for an eye….

But he will undoubtedly improve the LIV attention through Scandinavia.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			For the guessing game, I'll go Stenson, Leishman,  Scott
		
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There’s been strong rumours of Leishman and Scott for a few days, of course they could be 3 players that we’ve never heard of as well….


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Maybe they have, and maybe it is spite, but then, I’d argue that the tours have shown nothing but spite towards LIV, so an eye for an eye….

But he will undoubtedly improve the LIV attention through Scandinavia.
		
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So you think the other Tours should have welcomed a rival Tour starting up, taking players, hence depleting fields and starting an arms race for prize money?

Do you think Apple would welcome a massively funded new company making high end phones and tech devices? 

I hope some of the other people on your planet are a bit more reasonable.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So you think the other Tours should have welcomed a rival Tour starting up, taking players, hence depleting fields and starting an arms race for prize money?

Do you think Apple would welcome a massively funded new company making high end phones and tech devices?

I hope some of the other people on your planet are a bit more reasonable.
		
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Lol, I’d rather live on planet competition than planet monopoly Ethan, but we’re all different buddy. 

The PGA had an opportunity to work with LIV, but they refused it, as obviously that have the right to.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Interesting graphic here showing how the teams at the bottom of the table are potentially being strengthened with the new player additions. Also worth remembering they are building teams around nations, so looks like we might be seeing an Aussie added to the series? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549503996808859655


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting graphic here showing how the teams at the bottom of the table are potentially being strengthened with the new player additions. Also worth remembering they are building teams around nations, so looks like we might be seeing an Aussie added to the series?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549503996808859655

Click to expand...

I thought the fireballs were being rebranded?


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, I’d rather live on planet competition than planet monopoly Ethan, but we’re all different buddy.

The PGA had an opportunity to work with LIV, but they refused it, as obviously that have the right to.
		
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I think you live on Planet Wishful Thinking. The LIV Tour wants to bulldoze the PGA Tour and if you think they are seeking to grow the game through more competition, you are living on Planet Delusion.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I thought the fireballs were being rebranded?
		
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Wasn’t that Sergio that requested that? Haven’t seen anything more on that topic since the day the story broke.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I thought the fireballs were being rebranded?
		
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They should get sponsorship from a manufacturer of breathable underwear.


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## Depreston (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I thought the fireballs were being rebranded?
		
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the fans went wild like Hull City did about changing to Hull Tigers


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## rksquire (Jul 20, 2022)

RRidges said:



			She'll have simply stated what was on her prompt sheet. Doesn't mean ALL prize money goes to players. As I posted, it might simply be the Team earnings for example. The fact that BdC was stumped could suggest something along those lines. As I've already stated, Norman is no fool.
Should a disgruntled LIV player leave that tour, we may find out more, but I don't see that happening for a year or 2, in spite of rumours.
		
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Not sure about that, her language was pretty clear "prize purses are on top of their contracts, there is no drop...".  About 28.10 of this link: BK LIV Presser
It wasn't BDC (my bad), it was Koepka, but in any event if it's Norman pulling a fast one at the expense of the players the whole thing would internally combust, and, in reality, with the amount of legal eagles involved in scrutinizing the contracts for each individual player this would be a pretty big miss.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Wasn’t that Sergio that requested that? Haven’t seen anything more on that topic since the day the story broke.
		
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Yeah I thought he said it was changing - but also seen nothing since!

Was thinking its a bit harsh on anyone who brought fireball merch at the events...


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## AddisonRoad (Jul 20, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Yeah I thought he said it was changing - but also seen nothing since!

Was thinking its a bit harsh on anyone who brought fireball merch at the events...
		
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Anyone that bought fireball merch at the event deserves a brand change - couldn't believe people were buying team merch at the london event, lol


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

To be fsit


AddisonRoad said:



			Anyone that bought fireball merch at the event deserves a brand change - couldn't believe people were buying team merch at the london event, lol
		
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To be fair, it could be worth an absolute fortune in 30 years time when the LIV series is the dominant world tour. ;-)


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## AddisonRoad (Jul 20, 2022)

I'm also confused why anyone is putting weight behind the LIV viewing figures on YouTube. Saudi is known to operate large bot farms, I wouldn't be putting much thought into how many people are allegedly streaming the events. The real indicator will be how much a network is willing to pay for the rights to it.


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## SevenOverGolf (Jul 20, 2022)

Strong rumours that big brands will buy into the LIV teams. AT&T Rumoured as are Srixon, Adidas are another. Interesting to see how much more appeal branding will give players. I know that sounds bizarre but big companys have a ton of pull so it wouldn't surprise me to see more big names over the next 2/3 events.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 20, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			Anyone that bought fireball merch at the event deserves a brand change - couldn't believe people were buying team merch at the london event, lol
		
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Majestic caps were sold out by Saturday - otherwise I'd have had one


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## GB72 (Jul 20, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			I'm also confused why anyone is putting weight behind the LIV viewing figures on YouTube. Saudi is known to operate large bot farms, I wouldn't be putting much thought into how many people are allegedly streaming the events. The real indicator will be how much a network is willing to pay for the rights to it.
		
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I think it is more of an issue than what a network will pay. The issue may be that other tours may not negotiate future contracts with networks showing LIV events and so the likes of Sky, the Golf Channel etc may well be excluded from the running.


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## Imurg (Jul 20, 2022)

Stenson gone
Need a new RC Captain


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## HankMarvin (Jul 20, 2022)

Exciting times ahead for golf as it's about to change, always good to have healthy competition and it looks like LIV is here to stay and change the sport. Let's hope it's all good and look forward to how golf remodels it's self going forward. Exciting times indeed


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## pauljames87 (Jul 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Stenson gone
Need a new RC Captain
		
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This is going to be huge isn't it? I mean not just a captain but I assuming vice captains can't be Liv either

So Garcia, Westwood, poulter, Stenson, kaymer, GMAC all gone as options 

Luke Donald best keep his phone at the ready but I mean how many can he pick from? And with them being at tail end of their careers what's to stop live trying to buy them?


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## SyR (Jul 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Stenson gone
Need a new RC Captain
		
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The offer must have been too good to miss, being the RC captain must be a life goal for most pro's.


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## evemccc (Jul 20, 2022)

SyR said:



			The offer must have been too good to miss, being the RC captain must be a life goal for most pro's.
		
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I don’t know. 

If I was a pro my top three goals would be in order of priority:

1) The Open
2) Masters
3) US Open


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## Beezerk (Jul 20, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I don’t know. 

If I was a pro my top three goals would be in order of priority:

1) The Open
2) Masters
3) US Open
		
Click to expand...

Play in a Ryder Cup as well, I’m not convinced being captain is right up there, it’s more a poisoned chalice.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Play in a Ryder Cup as well, I’m not convinced being captain is right up there, it’s more a poisoned chalice.
		
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Especially with the current pick of European players against the USA.


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## Beezerk (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Especially with the current pick of European players against the USA.
		
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Well yes that as well, doesn’t really make it an enticing prospect 😬


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## need_my_wedge (Jul 20, 2022)

I like Stenson a lot, great character, but lost a little bit of respect for him right now.


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## RRidges (Jul 20, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Not sure about that, her language was pretty clear "prize purses are on top of their contracts, there is no drop...".  About 28.10 of this link: BK LIV Presser
It wasn't BDC (my bad), it was Koepka, but in any event if it's Norman pulling a fast one at the expense of the players the whole thing would internally combust, and, in reality, with the amount of legal eagles involved in scrutinizing the contracts for each individual player this would be a pretty big miss.
		
Click to expand...

Again, that doesn't mean <bleep>. She'll have been told what to say if that question comes up and while it probably won't be a lie, the actual details could easily be hidden in the fine wording of the contract. The definition of 'prize purse' is probably key - and might simply be the players share of the team prize! It would also be daft, for example, to provide the  enormous bungs that have been published, only to have the player withdraw from the circus prematurely. Until an actual contract is seen, it's all just speculation and inference - including by me.


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

When they have the job, they have to gush about how much RC Captain means to them. But really its a minor honorific, a final medal for long service to the tour, and a chance to cash in a little at the end of a playing career. Its a bit like being given a testimonial game by their club for footballers. They talk it up, and go deep into selecting the right colour for the backup waterproofs, and what chocolate bar a given player likes in the freebies in the dressing room. But its a very minor thing in the global scheme of world golf.


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## Orikoru (Jul 20, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			I like Stenson a lot, great character, but lost a little bit of respect for him right now.
View attachment 43547

Click to expand...

I don't think he's gone back on those words - provided his contract didn't explicitly state "you cannot join a different tour or we'll cancel you". They have terminated his contract, not him.


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Exactly. He can still say " Happy to still do the job ! 👍".


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## Springveldt (Jul 20, 2022)

SyR said:



			The offer must have been too good to miss, being the RC captain must be a life goal for most pro's.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure on that tbh. Playing in one, yes but being Captain? Seems like a bit of a PITA if you ask me. You get blamed for any single thing that goes wrong.

If I was a pro my life goal would have been to win an Open, play in a Ryder Cup and make a boat load of money. That's about it really.


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## Springveldt (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			They should get sponsorship from a manufacturer of breathable underwear.
		
Click to expand...

Got any recommendations? This weather and sitting in a leather chair all day I wouldn't mind some myself.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			I like Stenson a lot, great character, but lost a little bit of respect for him right now.
View attachment 43547

Click to expand...


Stenson may have accepted the Captaincy knowing it might up his profile and his value when selling out to LIV. If that is his true character, he can clear off and not come back.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Stenson may have accepted the Captaincy knowing it might up his profile and his value when selling out to LIV. If that is his true character, he can clear off and not come back.
		
Click to expand...

Little bit tenuous given the dates.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Little bit tenuous given the dates.
		
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Well, he didn't start talking to them yesterday. He fits the profile exactly, former successful player, major winner, now not really competitive but would still like some more dough. There have clearly been behind the scenes discussion well ahead of time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't think he's gone back on those words - provided his contract didn't explicitly state "you cannot join a different tour or we'll cancel you". They have terminated his contract, not him.
		
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His contract would have stated that he would have had to stay with the ET Tour etc 

The captain is captain of the ET Team that’s taking on the US 

He had a choice - having the honor to captain the side - and it’s still a huge honor in the sport or earn a big extra load of dollars . He picked the money


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 20, 2022)

So if the reports are true.

Next 3 players TBA for next Liv Event are

- Cameron Smith otherwise known as Champion Golfer Of The Year - WGR 2
- Hideki Matsuyama - WGR 14
- Patrick Cantlay - WGR 4

Also not to be ignored they are recruiting quality announcers like David Feherty, can only think he is going because a TV deal is in the offering and has been offered way more money than NBC of course.

These can not be simply described as over the hill, past their best, last pay day.

Q
1. How much does this move the needle ?
2. Does Rory/JT/Rahm have to slightly soften their stance as genuine best players in the world are starting to move ?
3. Does the PGA tour have to start thinking about collaborating with Liv before the flood gates open ?

Thoughts People ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, he didn't start talking to them yesterday. He fits the profile exactly, former successful player, major winner, now not really competitive but would still like some more dough. There have clearly been behind the scenes discussion well ahead of time.
		
Click to expand...

He was announced as RC captain before Norman even announced the 1st date of LIV, and long before anybody saw any of the ridiculous repercussions of joining the series. 
But let’s not let that get in the way of an opportunity to throw as much dirt at somebody as possible eh? 
He’ll have been in RC captaincy discussions from a time before LIV was even a thing.


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## Orikoru (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*His contract would have stated that he would have had to stay with the ET Tour etc*

The captain is captain of the ET Team that’s taking on the US

He had a choice - having the honor to captain the side - and it’s still a huge honor in the sport or earn a big extra load of dollars . He picked the money
		
Click to expand...

But again, it's the Tour who have expelled him, not him choosing to leave the tour. If they didn't kick him out I'm sure he'd remain a member of it and honour the Ryder Cup captain commitment. So he's not broken his contract.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So if the reports are true.

Next 3 players TBA for next Liv Event are

- Cameron Smith otherwise known as Champion Golfer Of The Year - WGR 2
- Hideki Matsuyama - WGR 14
- Patrick Cantlay - WGR 4

Also not to be ignored they are recruiting quality announcers like David Feherty, can only think he is going because a TV deal is in the offering and has been offered way more money than NBC of course.

These can not be simply described as over the hill, past their best, last pay day.

Q
1. How much does this move the needle ?
2. Does Rory/JT/Rahm have to slightly soften their stance as genuine best players in the world are starting to move ?
3. Does the PGA tour have to start thinking about collaborating with Liv before the flood gates open ?

Thoughts People ?
		
Click to expand...

Didn't Cam Smith say he was committing to the PGA Tour for the rest of the season?

Matsuyama would certainly be a miss. Cantley is a great golfer and may be a lovely guy but is as dull as dishwater, so he won't move the needle that much.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			But again, it's the Tour who have expelled him, not him choosing to leave the tour. If they didn't kick him out I'm sure he'd remain a member of it and honour the Ryder Cup captain commitment. So he's not broken his contract.
		
Click to expand...

No matter how you try and twist this , it’s Stenson making the choice , his contract to be captain would have stipulated in some way that he couldn’t join another Tour etc
He knew that taking the money would have meant losing the captaincy - so it’s his choice

How can you have a captain of the Euro Ryder Cup when he has joined a rival tour

He has chosen money over that honour - doesn’t matter how you try and shift the blame
he hasn’t been “kicked off the tour”


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Didn't Cam Smith say he was committing to the PGA Tour for the rest of the season?

Matsuyama would certainly be a miss. Cantley is a great golfer and may be a lovely guy but is as dull as dishwater, so he won't move the needle that much.
		
Click to expand...

You can add Thomas to the dull as dishwater category.


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## GB72 (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No matter how you try and twist this , it’s Stenson making the choice , his contract to be captain would have stipulated in some way that he couldn’t join another Tour etc
He knew that taking the money would have meant losing the captaincy - so it’s his choice

How can you have a captain of the Euro Ryder Cup when he has joined a rival tour

He has chosen money over that honour - doesn’t matter how you try and shift the blame
		
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This is the thing though, very much hypothesising about what is in a contract. I am less convinced that there would be a clause to that effect unless it was all re-drafted post LIV and made specific reference. Yes, with recent actions it would have been clear that signing up to LIV would mean removal from the European Tour but, again, the impact of this would involve hypothesising about the contract. For example, does the contract merely specify the need to participate in a set number of european tour events to allow PGA Tour members to captain or does it even have that requirement bearing in mind that the position could be awarded to someone who has fully retired. 

I am in no doubt that the outcome of moving to LIV would have been very clear now but I am not as convinced that this iron clad contract that people were referring to actually exists and, in fact, I am not convinced that the impact of LIV would have been acknowledged or even taken seriously when he signed up as captain.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Didn't Cam Smith say he was committing to the PGA Tour for the rest of the season?

Matsuyama would certainly be a miss. Cantley is a great golfer and may be a lovely guy but is as dull as dishwater, so he won't move the needle that much.
		
Click to expand...

Very strong reports Cam Smith signed for Liv just before The Open.
When asked in his press conference whether he was joining Liv he gave the Brooks K answer of why are you asking me that when ive just won The Open.
Could have shut it down then by saying no but he didn't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			This is the thing though, very much hypothesising about what is in a contract. I am less convinced that there would be a clause to that effect unless it was all re-drafted post LIV and made specific reference. Yes, with recent actions it would have been clear that signing up to LIV would mean removal from the European Tour but, again, the impact of this would involve hypothesising about the contract. For example, does the contract merely specify the need to participate in a set number of european tour events to allow PGA Tour members to captain or does it even have that requirement bearing in mind that the position could be awarded to someone who has fully retired.

I am in no doubt that the outcome of moving to LIV would have been very clear now but I am not as convinced that this iron clad contract that people were referring to actually exists and, in fact, I am not convinced that the impact of LIV would have been acknowledged or even taken seriously when he signed up as captain.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.rydercup.com/news-media/statement-from-ryder-cup-europe?amp=true

n light of decisions made by Henrik in relation to his personal circumstances, it has become clear that he will not be able to fulfil *certain contractual obligations to Ryder Cup Europe *that he had committed to prior to his announcement as Captain on Tuesday March 15, 2022, and it is therefore not possible for him to continue in the role of Captain.


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## sweaty sock (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Didn't Cam Smith say he was committing to the PGA Tour for the rest of the season?

Matsuyama would certainly be a miss. Cantley is a great golfer and may be a lovely guy but is as dull as dishwater, so he won't move the needle that much.
		
Click to expand...

Death by a thousand cuts though, the more players move across, the smaller the pool for the pga.  Fair point most are second string really, but its not far from being the top ten, and a bunch of also rans, given how few events the top ten actually play, the pga position is definitely getting weaker.

Especially as it seems like LIV is practically guaranteeing best players always in the field...


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## GB72 (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.rydercup.com/news-media/statement-from-ryder-cup-europe?amp=true

n light of decisions made by Henrik in relation to his personal circumstances, it has become clear that he will not be able to fulfil *certain contractual obligations to Ryder Cup Europe *that he had committed to prior to his announcement as Captain on Tuesday March 15, 2022, and it is therefore not possible for him to continue in the role of Captain.
		
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Amazing how many companies and organisations think that they have the contractual high ground when making initial quotes for grounds for dismissal. Cartainly a lack of specifics there and, if were the case, one suspects that they would have stated was the issue that he was no longer a member of the Euopean Tour I, on the other hand, would rather see some evidence come out before taking a position on a contractual dispute. They could very well be right but I would have been shocked if they came out and said that Stenson fulfilled all of the criteria to complete the contract but we have dismissed him anyway (not sure how well that would play should legal action be required).


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## r0wly86 (Jul 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Amazing how many companies and organisations think that they have the contractual high ground when making initial quotes for grounds for dismissal. Cartainly a lack of specifics there and, if were the case, one suspects that they would have stated was the issue that he was no longer a member of the Euopean Tour I, on the other hand, would rather see some evidence come out before taking a position on a contractual dispute. They could very well be right but I would have been shocked if they came out and said that Stenson fulfilled all of the criteria to complete the contract but we have dismissed him anyway (not sure how well that would play should legal action be required).
		
Click to expand...

You think they would publish specific contractual clauses? NO employer would ever do that


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## dronfield (Jul 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't think he's gone back on those words - provided his contract didn't explicitly state "you cannot join a different tour or we'll cancel you". They have terminated his contract, not him.
		
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I understood that the ET/RC committee had inserted such a clause preventing him playing on other tours?


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## Jimaroid (Jul 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			You think they would publish specific contractual clauses? NO employer would ever do that
		
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This. And very often described as an explicit clause in contracts for good reason.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 20, 2022)

Few familiar phrases here
"Excited to be working with Saudi Arabia" 
"Golf help the transformation of the country" 
"Their helping us develop the game" 

Sound like Liv?

No Keith Pelley CEO of the DP World Tour talking about the European Tour in 2019.

The overwhelming stench of Hypocrisy should be coming out of everyone's devices as they now suspend their own players for doing and saying the same thing. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549721902675103750


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## GB72 (Jul 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			You think they would publish specific contractual clauses? NO employer would ever do that
		
Click to expand...

No but I think that they would issue something less generic in their statement along the lines of it being because he was no longer a member of the tour, could not enter enough events over the next year etc. It will all come out in court I suspect. Now if, as Dronfield says above, a clause was later added to the contract (which Stenson would have had to have agreed to as you cannot arbitrarily change a contract) then that would put everything in a wholly different light. But, if that were the case, I would have thought that it would be mentioned in general terms to wholly exonerate them in the public eye. 

I have no horse in this race, professional golf and who runs it really does not matter that much to me, but I do see a lot of Stenson bashing without the full facts and so I tend to be drawn to stand up for the other side in those instances.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Few familiar phrases here
"Excited to be working with Saudi Arabia"
"Golf help the transformation of the country"
"Their helping us develop the game"

Sound like Liv?

No Keith Pelley CEO of the DP World Tour talking about the European Tour in 2019.

The overwhelming stench of Hypocrisy should be coming out of everyone's devices as they now suspend their own players for doing and saying the same thing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549721902675103750

Click to expand...

I know somebody who has met Pelley, amongst many others in the golfing world, and he said Pelley stood out as a very bad man.


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## Billysboots (Jul 20, 2022)

This has probably been written above already, but to me the addition of Stenson says everything any of us needs to know about LIV.

Any suggestion whatsoever that they are there to showcase the best golfers, or up and comers, is shot down in flames by the addition of a man who, in two years on the PGA Tour, has only four top 10’s in 35 starts and has missed a fistful of cuts.

This is all about giving European golf a bloody nose. Pure and simple. And it stinks to high heaven.


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## AddisonRoad (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Few familiar phrases here
"Excited to be working with Saudi Arabia"
"Golf help the transformation of the country"
"Their helping us develop the game"

Sound like Liv?

No Keith Pelley CEO of the DP World Tour talking about the European Tour in 2019.

The overwhelming stench of Hypocrisy should be coming out of everyone's devices as they now suspend their own players for doing and saying the same thing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549721902675103750

Click to expand...

The hypocrisy is irrelevant. Why on earth would DP World Tour and PGA Tour roll over and let new investors destroy the establishment they have built for decades? It's so silly that anyone thinks the PGA should be accommodating any of this. If anything, the PGA should be taking on debt to increase purses to ensure that these players don't leave.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I know somebody who has met Pelley, amongst many others in the golfing world, and he said Pelley stood out as a very bad man.
		
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La de da! Has he chopped up a journalist or something?


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Very strong reports Cam Smith signed for Liv just before The Open.
When asked in his press conference whether he was joining Liv he gave the Brooks K answer of why are you asking me that when ive just won The Open.
Could have shut it down then by saying no but he didn't.
		
Click to expand...

I took his comments at the presser to suggest he didn't think that was an appropriate question for the situation and was trying to close it down, albeit a bit clumsily. I will be very disappointed in him if he does, but I suppose that mullet should have warned us he was a wrong'un. 

But then there is this: GolfWRX on Smith


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			La de da! Has he chopped up a journalist or something?
		
Click to expand...

See, these are the kind of comments the anti LIV brigade have to resort to in the debate, and there really is no need. Let’s keep it civil.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			See, these are the kind of comments the anti LIV brigade have to resort to in the debate, and there really is no need. Let’s keep it civil.
		
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Do you include defamation in your definition of civil? You seem to do a lot of it.


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## Springveldt (Jul 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



*Didn't Cam Smith say he was committing to the PGA Tour for the rest of the season?*

Matsuyama would certainly be a miss. Cantley is a great golfer and may be a lovely guy but is as dull as dishwater, so he won't move the needle that much.
		
Click to expand...

So Cam is staying with the PGA for a few more weeks to get the FedEx money before moving to LIV?

His answers at the Open were exactly like Brooks answers at the US Open. The fact he didn't come out and say "No I'm not going to LIV" was a sign for me that he's actually going.


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## PieMan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			See, these are the kind of comments the anti LIV brigade have to resort to in the debate, and there really is no need. Let’s keep it civil.
		
Click to expand...

But you've put it out there that Pelley is a very bad man! What's he done then that would put him on a par with being implicit in the murder of a journalist?


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## JonnyGutteridge (Jul 20, 2022)

Has Mel recruited TheBigDraw to help with the Pro-LIV posts?
Honestly both of your posts read like you are working for Liv, it’s very bizarre.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

PieMan said:



			But you've put it out there that Pelley is a very bad man! What's he done then that would put him on a par with being implicit in the murder of a journalist?
		
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Has Greg Norman murdered a journalist?


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## PieMan (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Has Greg Norman murdered a journalist?
		
Click to expand...

What about the question about Pelley?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Has Greg Norman murdered a journalist?
		
Click to expand...

His paymasters did 

And how did he respond when asked about it 

“Well everyone is allowed mistakes”


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He was announced as RC captain before Norman even announced the 1st date of LIV, and long before anybody saw any of the ridiculous repercussions of joining the series.
*But let’s not let that get in the way of an opportunity to throw as much dirt at somebody as possible eh?*
He’ll have been in RC captaincy discussions from a time before LIV was even a thing.
		
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Mel Smooth said:



			I know somebody who has met Pelley, amongst many others in the golfing world, *and he said Pelley stood out as a very bad man.*

Click to expand...

So which is it; are we throwing dirt, or not throwing dirt?  The stench of hypocrisy around your posts is overpowering.


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

He knows nothing of Pelley, whereas I know people who say he’s a really nice guy.


See how easy it is to post rubbish.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			His paymasters did

And how did he respond when asked about it

“Well everyone is allowed mistakes”
		
Click to expand...

He said it was ‘reprehensible’ in the interview I watched.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

PieMan said:



			What about the question about Pelley?
		
Click to expand...

I’ve said, somebody I know who’s met him said he was a bad man. 
He’s also quite willing to do business with the Saudi regime, as evidenced earlier.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 20, 2022)

AddisonRoad said:



			The hypocrisy is irrelevant. Why on earth would DP World Tour and PGA Tour roll over and let new investors destroy the establishment they have built for decades? It's so silly that anyone thinks the PGA should be accommodating any of this. If anything, the PGA should be taking on debt to increase purses to ensure that these players don't leave.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they are all just bored of the same tour week in week out.
Long journeys,boring hit it anywhere courses,same old ridiculous American shouts.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Very strong reports Cam Smith signed for Liv just before The Open.
When asked in his press conference whether he was joining Liv he gave the Brooks K answer of why are you asking me that when ive just won The Open.
Could have shut it down then by saying no but he didn't.
		
Click to expand...

He had just won the Open 
Stupid journalists asking stupid questions at the wrong moment.
I believe he said he would leave everything to his team.
So I suppose if his team say go he goes.
Bigger names and bigger hypocrites to follow that’s for certain


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Maybe they have, and maybe it is spite, but then, I’d argue that the tours have shown nothing but spite towards LIV, so an eye for an eye….

But he will undoubtedly improve the LIV attention through Scandinavia.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's very hard to imagine any business being very gracious with another business whose ambition (although not publicly stated) is to put them out of existence. 

It's like blaming someone for retaliating when they were on the receiving end of the first blow. 

LIV could have come in softly, but they chose the aggressive route. Then they bought out the Ryder Cup captain for the only reason that he's the Ryder Cup captain.


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## Imurg (Jul 20, 2022)

Sounds like a pnother massively high profile player is being signed up....

Charles Howell 3.....

Watch that needle move.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He said it was ‘reprehensible’ in the interview I watched.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.espn.co.uk/golf/story/_...-backlash-liv-golf-clarification?platform=amp

“"From what I heard and what you guys reported, just take ownership of what it is," Norman told reporters. "Take ownership no matter what it is. Look, we've all made mistakes, and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward."


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.espn.co.uk/golf/story/_...-backlash-liv-golf-clarification?platform=amp

“"From what I heard and what you guys reported, just take ownership of what it is," Norman told reporters. "Take ownership no matter what it is. Look, we've all made mistakes, and you just want to learn from those mistakes and how you can correct them going forward."
		
Click to expand...

Watch the clip, 1 minute in,  “it’s reprehensible what happened with Kashoggi”
https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...-norman-i-do-not-answer-to-saudi-ariba-or-mbs


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Watch the clip, 1 minute in,  “it’s reprehensible what happened with Kashoggi”
https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...-norman-i-do-not-answer-to-saudi-ariba-or-mbs

Click to expand...

So what we can see is that Norman is all over the place - he called it a mistake ,after that lots of back tracking to try and repair any damage after he was critisized for it.

You will excuse anything won’t you


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Few familiar phrases here
"Excited to be working with Saudi Arabia"
"Golf help the transformation of the country"
"Their helping us develop the game"

Sound like Liv?

No Keith Pelley CEO of the DP World Tour talking about the European Tour in 2019.

The overwhelming stench of Hypocrisy should be coming out of everyone's devices as they now suspend their own players for doing and saying the same thing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549721902675103750

Click to expand...

Can you point me to the quotes where DP Tour executives condemn LIV on ethical or moral grounds?


----------



## sunshine (Jul 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Very strong reports Cam Smith signed for Liv just before The Open.
When asked in his press conference whether he was joining Liv he gave the Brooks K answer of why are you asking me that when ive just won The Open.
Could have shut it down then by saying no but he didn't.
		
Click to expand...

And where are these "very strong reports?"

I see Liv have signed up another Mel who is going to peddle fabricated stories. The strategy of propoganda and misinformation via social media continues.


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Presumably Saudis will get a couple more top 30s, but it does look like they are struggling and resigned for the moment to that. Hence the signing of minor players or past-its. Too many of them to be just temporary no name place holders. They havent signed up for just 3 events or whatever. So it does look like a bit of a non event, even if just for the next 3 to 5 years before they go for a second draft.


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## sunshine (Jul 20, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Has Mel recruited TheBigDraw to help with the Pro-LIV posts?
Honestly both of your posts read like you are working for Liv, it’s very bizarre.
		
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What have Mel and BigDraw got in common?

They both use the forum to promote their own youtube channels. It's a clear Liv social media strategy.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what we can see is that Norman is all over the place - he called it a mistake ,after that lots of back tracking to try and repair any damage after he was critisized for it.

You will excuse anything won’t you







Click to expand...

I’m not excusing anything. That interview I’ve posted pre dates his comment at Centurion, so how would he be backtracking? 
if you watch it all, you’ll also hear Weir comment on how GN had reached out to Monahan, Pelley, and all the guys running the majors. The only one to respond were Augusta.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			What have Mel and BigDraw got in common?

They both use the forum to promote their own youtube channels. It's a clear Liv social media strategy.
		
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The 140 followers suggests it’s not a very good one. 😂


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 20, 2022)

PieMan said:



			But you've put it out there that Pelley is a very bad man! What's he done then that would put him on a par with being implicit in the murder of a journalist?
		
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Murdered two journalists?


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## Jigger (Jul 20, 2022)

Anyone got any views on the gender inequalities of prize money on the men and women’s tour? Now I’m by no means saying a low prize fund is equivalent to the women’s rights abuses in Saudi but both tours have done relatively nothing to level up the playing field between men and women.

All the issues are purely around the tour monopolisation being challenged and the tours feeling threatened.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Stenson has spoken - lots of trying to justify it all and trying to make himself feel good about it but it’s all just a “commercial” decision.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549807964772597766


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 20, 2022)

I'd like to know what it is these can now buy that they couldn't before they signed for LIV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Jigger said:



			Anyone got any views on the gender inequalities of prize money on the men and women’s tour? Now I’m by no means saying a low prize fund is equivalent to the women’s rights abuses in Saudi but both tours have done relatively nothing to level up the playing field between men and women.

All the issues are purely around the tour monopolisation being challenged and the tours feeling threatened.
		
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A lot of the prize money is very much dependent on the level of sponsorship for the events 

The LPGA and LET are seperate to the mens Tour and it’s up to those relevant tours to bring the sponsers in. Should the mens Tour subsidise the Ladies ? 

All for levelling the prize money if the income is also the same level to ensure it’s all equal 

The Ladies at one stage were very vocal about Saudi Arabia about how they treated Women - yet offered a big pile of cash that soon disappeared, they didn’t complain about being told they couldn’t wear shorts or skorts


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## RRidges (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I know somebody who has met Pelley, amongst many others in the golfing world, and he said Pelley stood out as a very bad man.
		
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That's probably the dumbest statement you've made on this thread - and possibly libelous!
The 'very bad man' looks like something Donald Trump would say!


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## Backsticks (Jul 20, 2022)

Jigger said:



			Anyone got any views on the gender inequalities of prize money on the men and women’s tour? Now I’m by no means saying a low prize fund is equivalent to the women’s rights abuses in Saudi but both tours have done relatively nothing to level up the playing field between men and women.

All the issues are purely around the tour monopolisation being challenged and the tours feeling threatened.
		
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Yes, I would say its about right, so fine at the moment. Womens tour developping nicely.
They need to stop tricking around with their majors though, and limit themselves to 4.


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## BrianM (Jul 20, 2022)

Jigger said:



			Anyone got any views on the gender inequalities of prize money on the men and women’s tour? Now I’m by no means saying a low prize fund is equivalent to the women’s rights abuses in Saudi but both tours have done relatively nothing to level up the playing field between men and women.

All the issues are purely around the tour monopolisation being challenged and the tours feeling threatened.
		
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Saudi Aramco sponsor the Womens European tour, the same personnel who bank roll LIV, best not to speak about it 😂😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m not excusing anything. That interview I’ve posted pre dates his comment at Centurion, so how would he be backtracking?
if you watch it all, you’ll also hear Weir comment on how GN had reached out to Monahan, Pelley, and all the guys running the majors. The only one to respond were Augusta.
		
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Are the majors supposed to respond to Norman ? 

Why should they - he is the figure head for a golf entity that potentially they don’t want to have anything to do with - he is “buying” the players , buying a tour , buying fans - maybe that’s not what they want to see.


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## Jigger (Jul 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A lot of the prize money is very much dependent on the level of sponsorship for the events

The LPGA and LET are seperate to the mens Tour and it’s up to those relevant tours to bring the sponsers in. Should the mens Tour subsidise the Ladies ?

All for levelling the prize money if the income is also the same level to ensure it’s all equal

The Ladies at one stage were very vocal about Saudi Arabia about how they treated Women - yet offered a big pile of cash that soon disappeared, they didn’t complain about being told they couldn’t wear shorts or skorts
		
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decent comment but there’s ways of getting male and female tours playing at the same events so that they are not being subsidised. I keep banging on about this but just as they have moved to suitable course for distance increases and courses have been built around that need, why is it so difficult for them to say right, we’re halving the mens field and playing on a course than can accomodate both male and female comps. We’re going to have 70 men and 70 women and a cut at 35 each, alternate male and female tees. We don’t get to see the journeymen at the back of the field anyway and nor are we bothered about them so why not freshen it up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Jigger said:



			decent comment but there’s ways of getting male and female tours playing at the same events so that they are not being subsidised. I keep banging on about this but just as they have moved to suitable course for distance increases and courses have been built around that need, why is it so difficult for them to say right, we’re halving the mens field and playing on a course than can accomodate both male and female comps. We’re going to have 70 men and 70 women and a cut at 35 each, alternate male and female tees. We don’t get to see the journeymen at the back of the field anyway and nor are we bothered about them so why not freshen it up?
		
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I agree it’s a decent idea but that’s 70 players missing out from either tour - what about all those players that have qualifed with a full Tour card ? Why should they miss out ?

But that would still be subsidised in some way because it would still be the mens game bringing in the sponserships 

There have been a number of mixed events - Sweden did one , 6’s etc 

But the set up within the game is reflective of the dynamics within the game right now 

Equality is great but must be equal in all aspects


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## Imurg (Jul 20, 2022)

And .....Jason Kokrak will, apparently,  complete the line up......


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And .....Jason Kokrak will, apparently,  complete the line up......

Click to expand...

So what about all the rumours of Smith , Cantlay , Matsyuma 🤷‍♂️

In the end two mid level at best US players and a player they have got just to rock the boat and who is on the downward part of his career


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 20, 2022)

213 pages of the same old 💩

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I know somebody who has met Pelley, amongst many others in the golfing world, and he said Pelley stood out as a very bad man.
		
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Stepping in here, where do I start

Defamation is a thing
What you have quoted is a third party opinion dressed up as a fact, 

I had a bloke in the back of the cab once and what he said must be gospel

Either quote your sources with examples or stop peddling tittle tattle


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stepping in here, where do I start

Defamation is a thing
What you have quoted is a third party opinion dressed up as a fact, 

I had a bloke in the back of the cab once and what he said must be gospel

Either quote your sources with examples or stop peddling tittle tattle
		
Click to expand...

It’s not like his make believe & trolling is new


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It’s not like his make believe & trolling is new
		
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I know, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, it’s when their opinion must be a fact that problems occur


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stepping in here, where do I start

Defamation is a thing
What you have quoted is a third party opinion dressed up as a fact,

I had a bloke in the back of the cab once and what he said must be gospel

Either quote your sources with examples or stop peddling tittle tattle
		
Click to expand...

Phil, the thread is full of baseless accusations, and you decide to pull me up on something??

I even had a poster accuse me of torturing my own son last week ffs, thankfully an admin spotted it, and gave the guy a ban. 

I take it you’re going to apply this level of administration across the board now?

I don’t want to go down the avenue of reporting everything that I’m trying my best to be offended by, but I can, quite easily.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 20, 2022)

RRidges said:



			That's probably the dumbest statement you've made on this thread - and possibly libelous!
The 'very bad man' looks like something Donald Trump would say!
		
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## theoneandonly (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, the thread is full of baseless accusations, and you decide to pull me up on something??

I even had a poster accuse me of torturing my own son last week ffs, thankfully an admin spotted it, and gave the guy a ban.

I take it you’re going to apply this level of administration across the board now?

I don’t want to go down the avenue of reporting everything that I’m trying my best to be offended by, but I can, quite easily.
		
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I'd fully agree with this, the forum is full of this sort of stuff, as ever it alway seems to be who is posting as opposed to whatis being posted.
I note the previous post is breaking the swearing rule....


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, the thread is full of baseless accusations, and you decide to pull me up on something??

I even had a poster accuse me of torturing my own son last week ffs, thankfully an admin spotted it, and gave the guy a ban.

I take it you’re going to apply this level of administration across the board now?

I don’t want to go down the avenue of reporting everything that I’m trying my best to be offended by, but I can, quite easily.
		
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I always apply the regs straight down the line, I even gave my brother an infraction once, ( oh how we laughed) 

I object to a major golf administrator being banded a bad man because of an unsubstantiated 3rd party quote .

You ask to deal in facts, let’s start at home please


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, the thread is full of baseless accusations, and you decide to pull me up on something??

I even had a poster accuse me of torturing my own son last week ffs, thankfully an admin spotted it, and gave the guy a ban. 

I take it you’re going to apply this level of administration across the board now?

I don’t want to go down the avenue of reporting everything that I’m trying my best to be offended by, but I can, quite easily.
		
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Why not just provide evidence to the statements you make!

Who told you Pelley was a “very bad man”?


I assume because it’s all imaginary


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## IainP (Jul 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And .....Jason Kokrak will, apparently,  complete the line up......

Click to expand...

So the speculation was right...
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/2022-professional-golf-thread.110822/post-2516860

Was actually surprised to see he was ranked 21st in January 😲


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			So the speculation was right...
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/2022-professional-golf-thread.110822/post-2516860

Was actually surprised to see he was ranked 21st in January 😲
		
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He said he was joining ages ago.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I always apply the regs straight down the line, I even gave my brother an infraction once, ( oh how we laughed)

I object to a major golf administrator being banded a bad man because of an unsubstantiated 3rd party quote .

You ask to deal in facts, let’s start at home please
		
Click to expand...

There’s plenty of unsubstantiated comments on here - would you be ok for me to report them so you can apply the regs? 

In fact, shut the thread. 

I’m sure the - I played golf today and then posted about it on the internet thread is way more interesting for the demographic.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Why not just provide evidence to the statements you make!

Who told you Pelley was a “very bad man”?


I assume because it’s all imaginary
		
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Is Norman a bad man for dealing with the Saudis? Because if he is, then so is Pelley, as evidenced by the earlier video.

Norman, good guy, or bad guy?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Why not just provide evidence to the statements you make!

Who told you Pelley was a “very bad man”?


I assume because it’s all imaginary
		
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What about your sources saying he's a really nice man? 

Let's not have some double standards in this thread.....


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

saving_par said:



			What about your sources saying he's a really nice man? 

Let's not have some double standards in this thread.....
		
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I was just proving that we can all post any old rubbish.


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is Norman a bad man for dealing with the Saudis? Because if he is, then so is Pelley, as evidenced by the earlier video.

Norman, good guy, or bad guy?
		
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I don’t know Norman.

But you stated that Pelley is a bad man; who told you that?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I was just proving that we can all post any old rubbish.
		
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Like when you posted a couple of days ago that players were leaving LIV to go back to thecPGA Tour🤔


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## JamesR (Jul 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Like when you posted a couple of days ago that players were leaving LIV to go back to thecPGA Tour🤔
		
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Exactly 
It was just the reverse of the crap you’ve been posting about people who are rumoured to be doing things.
You have no more knowledge than anyone else. All you post is made up.


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## chrisd (Jul 20, 2022)

I have decided to accept an offer from LIV

It came after finishing 8th in a Foursomes medal today where we came in the top 10

( there were only 9 teams entered)


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 20, 2022)

Take a break guys
Will reopen thread at some point


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Well, now that Charles Howell III, the world 173rd and the player whose picture sits in the dictionary definition of a journeyman who has won a fortune over his career, has joined, I am sold.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 21, 2022)

Wayne Grady laying it down on Greg. Ouch.


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## IainP (Jul 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Sounds like a pnother massively high profile player is being signed up....

Charles Howell 3.....

Watch that needle move.....
		
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Would liked to have been a fly on the wall. Could have understood it more if for the 1st event, but it seems an odd one for this timing. Guess he was known for wracking up a lot of PGAT starts.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Wayne Grady laying it down on Greg. Ouch.

View attachment 43552

Click to expand...

That’s not new, probably a couple of months old ,


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 21, 2022)

Sums it up nicely for me, from the BBC website comments section;


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, now that Charles Howell III, the world 173rd and the player whose picture sits in the dictionary definition of a journeyman who has won a fortune over his career, has joined, I am sold.
		
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Yes, it shows how they are really struggling to attract high level players. He ticks no box other then 'golfer'. Not an up and comer, not a current high ranker, not a major winner, not a Ryder cup hero, not a people favourite or 'character' (the likes of Beef would be a better low ranking recruit), not a regional spread, not a winner. Blandest of the bland. We can be certain he was on no original LIV hit list to defect.

Its the surest sign yet to me that the tide is turning toward PGAT coming out on top here.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, it shows how they are really struggling to attract high level players. He ticks no box other then 'golfer'. Not an up and comer, not a current high ranker, not a major winner, not a Ryder cup hero, not a people favourite or 'character' (the likes of Beef would be a better low ranking recruit), not a regional spread, not a winner. Blandest of the bland. We can be certain he was on no original LIV hit list to defect.

Its the surest sign yet to me that the tide is turning toward PGAT coming out on top here.
		
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CHIII is the definition of how good the PGA tour has been for players who will never trouble the top of the rankings. If he thinks that $42 million in career earnings, whatever endorsements on top and the comfortable lifestyle he has is a burden that unfairly reflects his value to the game, well I suspect many would disagree. Frankly, if I was the real decision maker at LIV Tour, I wouldn't want that sort of player.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours.  The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.  

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

I think it’s fair to say the defection of Stenson picking the money over the RC Captaincy has prob had the most negative reaction throughout this whole thing - it’s looking like a selection out of spite as opposed to anything else 

The reaction on social media from Sweden is pretty damming of the player who they until very recently idolised 

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/ryder-cup-captain-henrik-stenson-liv-golf/

and you would expect the social communications from LIV to at least get his nationality right


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## BrianM (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours.  The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.  

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.
		
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Stop talking sense, it doesn’t fit with the agenda of the usual posters, there is good, bad and negative with all the tours but they don’t want to see that with their blinkers on.


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## BrianM (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it’s fair to say the defection of Stenson picking the money over the RC Captaincy has prob had the most negative reaction throughout this whole thing - it’s looking like a selection out of spite as opposed to anything else 

The reaction on social media from Sweden is pretty damming of the player who they until very recently idolised 

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/ryder-cup-captain-henrik-stenson-liv-golf/

and you would expect the social communications from LIV to at least get his nationality right 

View attachment 43554

Click to expand...

The reaction from Sweden, a whole country is pretty damming, have a day off.
I’ve read loads of comments from Swedes / Scandinavians wishing him all the best, at least give a balanced response before posting.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours.  The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work. 

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.
		
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They don't spend 50% of their time away from home. The sorts of players LIV is looking for fly private around the country/world, get everything taken care for them, get appearance fees for overseas events, get corporate add-ons for domestic events and make more money by their mid-20s than most people make in a lifetime. Their wife/partner doesn't need to work, they have domestic staff if they want them, sometimes the families come along to events and luxuriate in the luxury hotels. 

Even Charles Howell III can do that. He can retire right now, get a cushy position as Honorary Head Pro at some swanky country club near where he wants to live and settle back into his rich retirement. Maybe do some punditry, write a book.


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## BrianM (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			They don't spend 50% of their time away from home. The sorts of players LIV is looking for fly private around the country/world, get everything taken care for them, get appearance fees for overseas events, get corporate add-ons for domestic events and make more money by their mid-20s than most people make in a lifetime. Their wife/partner doesn't need to work, they have domestic staff if they want them, sometimes the families come along to events and luxuriate in the luxury hotels. 

Even Charles Howell III can do that. He can retire right now, get a cushy position as Honorary Head Pro at some swanky country club near where he wants to live and settle back into his rich retirement. Maybe do some punditry, write a book.
		
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Did Charles tell you that or are you just guessing, do you know his personal circumstances?


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Did Charles tell you that or are you just guessing, do you know his personal circumstances?
		
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Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that. 

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions. 

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?


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## BrianM (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that. 

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions. 

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?
		
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Your guessing, making up stuff that you don’t know, what’s that bringing to the thread?
Unless you know peoples personal circumstances I don’t think you should be making assumptions.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that.

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions.

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?
		
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You need to site sources for your information, legitimate ones with provenance that we can refer to. This came from the man at the top and 
as an ex moderator you should be au fait with the forum rules.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours.  The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work. 

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.
		
Click to expand...

In regards the “working less” 

Is that what the players want to do or do they want to “cherry pick” the events 

As example - I have no doubt they would be ok playing the LiV events plus the major tour events , WGCs , majors etc 

So ultimately not about spending more time at home etc or playing less but playing the events that give them the best rewards possible 

Right now there is talk of the players looking to play on the Asian Tour events as well - how does that fit in with the playing less etc

There will no doubt be players like Koepka who would love just to play the odd few events plus the majors and I’m guessing it’s because his wedge is bigger than others


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

I think there are clearly divided opinions on what is a very political topic.  I think based on that I’m going to continue lurking on this thread but not comment, it seems any conflicting opinion is like trying to put a forest fire out with petrol… it get heated!

In summary of my views please of offend

, I think LIV is here whether it’s for the good of the sport or not. The PGA has done a great job al be it with ZERO competition, but if LIV attracts a different audience and grows the sport further it has to be a great outcome.  Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport.  Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.

Do we agree with the source of the funds, probably not but as I’ve commented before to accept sponsorship money for the other tours from the same sources is hypocrisy of the highest order. By the same token we all buy goods which no doubt have links whether it be fuel for the cars etc etc, so I find it impossible for us to sit in our ivory towers whiter than white.

Their country has an appalling history and if their investment in pro sports forces change via global acknowledgement and educations of its past then it has to be a positive.  I was pretty oblivious to its history until it caused outrage when F1 went there, now golf and no doubt other sports if I did some digging.

My “personal” opinion is that the US tour found it perfectly acceptable to pillage every high profile player they wanted from Europe with a clear conscience and are now playing the victim when the favour is returned. I find it even more amazing that the euro tours have sided with the US tour given the damage it done to their “ brand “ as “ brand damage “ seems to be a big headline argument, to me it’s no different.  Imagine being a character witness in court for the man who’s just burgled your house? The DP / euro tours had the perfect opportunity to have LIV host the big money events, have access to some high profile (past it or not) players for their events and the bottled it.

Enjoy the disagreeing 

HighHorseSocks over and out.


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## GB72 (Jul 21, 2022)

Having given this all a bit more thought, I have reached a bit of a conclusion in my mind on how I feel about the whole issue between tours. 

If the PGA, DP Tour, Ryder Cup Committee etc had kept this to one simple argument then I would be fully behind them. If the only line they took was simply one that they were totally against the actions and attitudes of Saudi and the idea of sportswashing and on that basis they fully condemn the Saudi regime and would not allow players on their tour who associate with and thus tacitly support the same then I would have no issue with 100% supporting that stance. That would, of course, mean that events, players etc would have to be very careful when selecting sponsors to ensure that their funding has not come from Saudi indirectly. 

As soon as the debate moves away from that, it all become simply business to me and whatever happens, happens. Take away the main issues relating to politics and human rights, and the debate appears to be that a tour is throwing around money to atract the best golfers away from the exisiting tours, exactly what I see the PGA Tour having done in the past (that opinion may be right or wrong).


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Your guessing, making up stuff that you don’t know, what’s that bringing to the thread?
Unless you know peoples personal circumstances I don’t think you should be making assumptions.
		
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I am making an assumption that you support LIV Golf but have no good arguments to make.

CH3 has earned $42.025 million in PGA Tour earning. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 is 173rd in the OWGR. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has played 16 PGA tour events this season, 1 top 10, 5 missed cuts. Other finishes average around 25th. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has has sponsorships from various club makers, but also consulting groups, private jet companies, Lexus, General Electric. Money was probably involved. Fact, not assumption.

I trust you will adopt the same snarky demand for proof from those making assumptions in favour of LIV Golf, and ask about personal relationships with Greg Norman.


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## timd77 (Jul 21, 2022)

My opinion, therefore no sourcing needed, is that a lot of the players going to LIV just want to win something. They know their time’s over on the main tours where the field is too competitive and they’re unlikely to win any tournaments, so they join a weaker, smaller field and increase their chances of winning. Add to that the obscene bundles of cash on offer, it’s a no brainer for them.

Obviously not all, the likes of DJ, Brookes and BDC are still relevant and competitive, no doubt about that. But certainly your Stensons, Poulters, Westwoods are over the hill, and the majority of the others being in the ‘never had it in the first place’ category.


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## BrianM (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I am making an assumption that you support LIV Golf but have no good arguments to make.

CH3 has earned $42.025 million in PGA Tour earning. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 is 173rd in the OWGR. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has played 16 PGA tour events this season, 1 top 10, 5 missed cuts. Other finishes average around 25th. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has has sponsorships from various club makers, but also consulting groups, private jet companies, Lexus, General Electric. Money was probably involved. Fact, not assumption.

I trust you will adopt the same snarky demand for proof from those making assumptions in favour of LIV Golf.
		
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Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.


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## sweaty sock (Jul 21, 2022)

To join in with the summing up then leaving.

LIV, just another golf tournament, with an average field.  No different, in any way, funding or otherwise from  PGA or DP event.

Both side of the argument from Norman and Monahan, right down to Mel and LiverpoolPhil, has now decended into finger pointing and name calling.  Until this changes, nothing will progress.

Small ball into 4 inch hole, for money.  How different can it be...


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.
		
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Well, you adopted a bit of a tone that I didn't see addressed to others who have stated a range of views, supported by varying degrees of verifiable facts. 

CHIII has long been discussed as an archetypal example of the middle of the pack (although sliding) journeyman who has managed to keep their card through mostly middle of the field finishes and has made a shedload of money. I don't see how he adds much to the LIV Tour brand. Do you disagree with that characterisation?


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Small ball into *4 inch hole*, for money.
		
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Are you sure?


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.
		
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I am probably against LIV. Mainly, I dont care who runs the tours. So if LIV ran the show, I would be fine. pGAT runs it, fine. Boris Johnson runs it , well, almost.

The key is having all the worlds golfers competing against each other. Thats why the pgat has worked. Could Saudi have done the same? Probably. If they had ALL the player, and not a subset, and not a closed shop. That it has those limitations is what makes it a show circus, not sport. 
Add it the 54 holes, the utter garbage of teams in an individual sport, and the shotgun, and they harm not help their case.

So LIV is THE problem. Not because of what it is in itself in the main, but because it has caused a split at the top of golf. We, the golf followers are the losers. Two half tours is only a fraction as good as one full tour.


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## sweaty sock (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Are you sure?
		
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Couldn't have proven the point better.


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## GB72 (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am probably against LIV. Mainly, I dont care who runs the tours. So if LIV ran the show, I would be fine. pGAT runs it, fine. Boris Johnson runs it , well, almost.

The key is having all the worlds golfers competing against each other. Thats why the pgat has worked. Could Saudi have done the same? Probably. If they had ALL the player, and not a subset, and not a closed shop. That it has those limitations is what makes it a show circus, not sport.
Add it the 54 holes, the utter garbage of teams in an individual sport, and the shotgun, and they harm not help their case.

So LIV is THE problem. Not because of what it is in itself in the main, but because it has caused a split at the top of golf. We, the golf followers are the losers. Two half tours is only a fraction as good as one full tour.
		
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On a golfing point of view, and I am sure that I am very much in a minority with a very wierd view on this, but I would actually like more of a division between where the top golfers play. Now, hear me out on this, I know that I am being a bit strange (and maybe totally wrong) but I seem to recall when I was much younger that the Europeans did not play in PGA tour events much and vice versa. So, when it came to the majors, it was this massive build up of the best in Europe taking on the best in America etc and those events jiust seemed special and you would cheer on any European doing well and actually felt investered enough to support someone. Again, not denegrating the majors now but the fiield is pretty much the smae as any of the bigger PGA tour events and feels less special as a result and I have lost that us vs them rivalry. 

Again, may be wrong, may be being weird but I just see something special about how I rememeber majors used to be.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am probably against LIV. Mainly, I dont care who runs the tours. So if LIV ran the show, I would be fine. pGAT runs it, fine. Boris Johnson runs it , well, almost.

The key is having all the worlds golfers competing against each other. Thats why the pgat has worked. Could Saudi have done the same? Probably. If they had ALL the player, and not a subset, and not a closed shop. That it has those limitations is what makes it a show circus, not sport.
Add it the 54 holes, the utter garbage of teams in an individual sport, and the shotgun, and they harm not help their case.

So LIV is THE problem. Not because of what it is in itself in the main, but because it has caused a split at the top of golf. We, the golf followers are the losers. Two half tours is only a fraction as good as one full tour.
		
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I agree that the idea of a World Tour sounds great. Have a bunch of 15 or so marquee events, probably 7 or 8 in the US, 3 or 4 in Europe, a couple in SA, one in Oz and one in UAE, one in SE Asia, and that would be great. The regular season PGA Tout and DP World Tour could run as well. 

The problem is that the LIV Tour is driven by 2 unpleasant motivations. 

One is sport washing. There is no doubt that Saudi royal family want to sanitise their image. The only debate is between  people who care about that or not. I expect the Saudis would be happy to work with the PGA Tour to do so. They don't care, their outcome is a laundered public image. 

The other one is Greg Norman, who has a bone to pick with the PGA Tour. He is much less happy to reach agreement, he wants vengeance. He considers that the PGA Tour has not shown him the respect he thinks he deserves. He also bears resentment from the rejection of the mid-90s ideas for a world tour and resents missing out on a career swansong in such a Tour. Adding Trump to the mix is a sure sign he does not want to settle, because the PGA Tour hates Trump and will not have one of his events in their schedule. 

If the LIV Tour wants a deal (as opposed to legal settlement) with the PGA Tour, they need to get rid of Norman and Trump.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Couldn't have proven the point better.
		
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Some have demanded verifiable facts in this debate. I can verify the hole is 4.25". Hole


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## Golfnut1957 (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I think there are clearly divided opinions on what is a very political topic.  I think based on that I’m going to continue lurking on this thread but not comment, it seems any conflicting opinion is like trying to put a forest fire out with petrol… it get heated!

In summary of my views please of offend

, I think LIV is here whether it’s for the good of the sport or not. The PGA has done a great job al be it with ZERO competition, but if LIV attracts a different audience and grows the sport further it has to be a great outcome.  Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport.  Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.

Do we agree with the source of the funds, probably not but as I’ve commented before to accept sponsorship money for the other tours from the same sources is hypocrisy of the highest order. By the same token we all buy goods which no doubt have links whether it be fuel for the cars etc etc, so I find it impossible for us to sit in our ivory towers whiter than white.

Their country has an appalling history and if their investment in pro sports forces change via global acknowledgement and educations of its past then it has to be a positive.  I was pretty oblivious to its history until it caused outrage when F1 went there, now golf and no doubt other sports if I did some digging.

*My “personal” opinion is that the US tour found it perfectly acceptable to pillage every high profile player they wanted from Europe with a clear conscience and are now playing the victim when the favour is returned. *I find it even more amazing that the euro tours have sided with the US tour given the damage it done to their “ brand “ as “ brand damage “ seems to be a big headline argument, to me it’s no different.  Imagine being a character witness in court for the man who’s just burgled your house? The DP / euro tours had the perfect opportunity to have LIV host the big money events, have access to some high profile (past it or not) players for their events and the bottled it.

Enjoy the disagreeing

HighHorseSocks over and out.
		
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I to have become a lurker on this thread, but I liked your post so much I thought I would add a little to it.

My personal gripe from the off has been the hypocrisy of the PGA Tour hiding behind "blood money" when in fact it has always been about LIV doing to it what they have done to the DPWT. The other aspect that I find completely hypocritical is found in this answer by Norman to a question posed by the Palm Beach Post. Link Below.

*Q: Your reaction to the players who have been outspoken against LIV?*

A: Shame on (those) who create this firestorm of controversy when you look within their own system when they got 23 odd sponsors who do $40-plus billion dollars of business with Saudi Arabia. C'mon, seriously? If you're going to go down this path just be ready to accept you're going to get some stuff coming back your way. And it's not hard to find it.

https://eu.palmbeachpost.com/story/...our-firestorm-more-exclusive-q-a/10033337002/


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I to have become a lurker on this thread, but I liked your post so much I thought I would add a little to it.

My personal gripe from the off has been the hypocrisy of the PGA Tour hiding behind "blood money" when in fact it has always been about LIV doing to it what they have done to the DPWT. The other aspect that I find completely hypocritical is found in this answer by Norman to a question posed by the Palm Beach Post. Link Below.

*Q: Your reaction to the players who have been outspoken against LIV?*

A: Shame on (those) who create this firestorm of controversy when you look within their own system when they got 23 odd sponsors who do $40-plus billion dollars of business with Saudi Arabia. C'mon, seriously? If you're going to go down this path just be ready to accept you're going to get some stuff coming back your way. And it's not hard to find it.

https://eu.palmbeachpost.com/story/...our-firestorm-more-exclusive-q-a/10033337002/

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It is ridiculous to equate FedEx having a delivery set up in Saudi, or Marriott having hotels with taking money directly from the Saudi royal family, and Norman knows it. The Plan Beach post is unlikely to be an objective observer, since both Norman and Trump live in the area. 

That argument is also like equating those who take money directly from Putin with Pfizer providing medicines to ordinary Russians.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

“Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport. Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.”

“Sport needs to evolve” 

It’s a common phrase that always seems to be banded around a bit 

Is the sport right now not current ? People are playing it more , clubs are booming , people are packing our events when they are hosted in the UK for example. 

Is it the desire for the sport to follow cricket and produce a shorten format ? A sport which is struggling to get people to play it 

I remember when they tried the 6’s at Centurion - it was short , fun , mixed and people seemed to enjoy it 

They struggled to get players to commit to it - not sure why - I can only think of one difference between the 6’s they tried and the LIV - money 

Golf on Telly is strange , when it’s your regular event im guessing only die hard golf fans watch it , I don’t really mainly because it’s on during the day and then in the evening 

I watch the majors and that’s your regular golfing set up - and as this weekend showed is unmatched excitement for the sport - some may have found it a bit boring 

If it’s the desire is to bring in a team element , it’s always tough in a sport that’s predominantly individual, I don’t know how people get attached to a team 🤷‍♂️ I’m a huge Somerset Cricket fan - the Hundred imo is the LIV golf equivalent and I thought it was awful and there was no team that I could attach too. 

The one point that I’m really struggling with is this idea that the PGA pillage high profile players - players go to the PGA tour because it improves their game , it helps them improve in the majors , the reason why Fitzpatrick won the US Open - because he moved to play the US Tour , same with any player , it’s tougher to win , it’s tougher to keep your card , it is and always has been the ground where all the top pros want to play. The European Tour has always been behind and always will be and for more reasons that just money. 

The PGA tour weren’t giving players £100’s mil to just come and play - the PGA tour is open to anyone who wants to qualify and play in their events - it’s on at prime time UK viewing and it gives players the base to improve. Not moving to the US earlier prob stopped the likes of Monty , Westwood etc from winning majors 

And the ET were looking for a better partnership with the PGA tour and they got it and will continue to work that way


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours.  The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.  

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.
		
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Isn't that argument nullified by the talk of the LIV players joining the Asian tour en masse? More traveling and more time away from home than playing on the PGA tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

GB72 said:



			On a golfing point of view, and I am sure that I am very much in a minority with a very wierd view on this, but I would actually like more of a division between where the top golfers play. Now, hear me out on this, I know that I am being a bit strange (and maybe totally wrong) but I seem to recall when I was much younger that the Europeans did not play in PGA tour events much and vice versa. So, when it came to the majors, it was this massive build up of the best in Europe taking on the best in America etc and those events jiust seemed special and you would cheer on any European doing well and actually felt investered enough to support someone. Again, not denegrating the majors now but the fiield is pretty much the smae as any of the bigger PGA tour events and feels less special as a result and I have lost that us vs them rivalry.

Again, may be wrong, may be being weird but I just see something special about how I rememeber majors used to be.
		
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Back in the 80’s the level of Europeans playing on the PGA tour was lower than it is now but some still travelled across for some main events - they had invited etc , a number of them went over and played before majors over there then came back. 

Seve and Faldo started to play more and then when it became easier for travel etc they started to gain their tour card in the 90’s and play over there more whilst still coming playing on the ET events 

The ET started to Also branch out in the 90’s to attached golfers from South Africa , Asia , Middle East etc 

The prob or issue started when Golf in the UK took a bit of a downturn , we were losing events in the UK , mainly through lack of sponsership and weather at times , golf wasn’t a popular sport , the boom was on its way down. Players could fly all over the world playing in the ET or try and earn their PGA tour card and base themselves in Florida as most of them of them did from the mid 00’s


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## Orikoru (Jul 21, 2022)

I thought it was a fair statement from Stenson and I agreed with him to be honest. I don't see why playing LIV events should preclude him from being RC Captain, other than the suspensions which are borne out of pettiness and desperation.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I thought it was a fair statement from *Stenson’s legal team* and I agreed with him to be honest. I don't see why playing LIV events should preclude him from being RC Captain, other than the suspensions which are borne out of pettiness and desperation.
		
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FTFY 😁


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## IainP (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, it shows how they are really struggling to attract high level players. He ticks no box other then 'golfer'. Not an up and comer, not a current high ranker, not a major winner, not a Ryder cup hero, not a people favourite or 'character' (the likes of Beef would be a better low ranking recruit), not a regional spread, not a winner. Blandest of the bland. We can be certain he was on no original LIV hit list to defect.

Its the surest sign yet to me that the tide is turning toward PGAT coming out on top here.
		
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Makes you wonder if they had a commitment to add x more players in July or something. I've said previously I thought they'd have more chance of 'signings' after August.

Don't know how significant this is -
2022 3M  SOF 113, winner 26 points
2021 3M  SOF 222, winner 40 points 

The purse looks higher in 2022


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I thought it was a fair statement from Stenson and I agreed with him to be honest. I don't see why playing LIV events should preclude him from being RC Captain, other than the suspensions which are borne out of pettiness and desperation.
		
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Can you really not see why the European Ryder Cup committee would not want their Captain to move away from the ET ?

Players make their choices and their membership will come with certain rules etc but the Captain of the Ryder Cup makes both contractually and morally commitments to the European Ryder Cup.

It’s clear moving to LIV meant that he couldn’t fulfill the contract obligations set out but morally they wouldn’t want their captain to be involved in all this

And it’s also suspensions borne out of protecting the tour and the membership.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you really not see why the European Ryder Cup committee would not want their Captain to move away from the ET ?

Players make their choices and their membership will come with certain rules etc but the Captain of the Ryder Cup makes both contractually and morally commitments to the European Ryder Cup.

It’s clear moving to LIV meant that he couldn’t fulfill the contract obligations set out but morally they wouldn’t want their captain to be involved in all this

And it’s also suspensions borne out of protecting the tour and the membership.
		
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He stated in his letter that LIV had agreed to allow him to fulfill all Ryder Cup contractual agreements. 

Most of the European team play out in the US and play only a handful of tournaments on the ET (DPWT now of course). There is no reason why he and others could not do a combination of LIV and ET, the template has already been set.


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## Beezerk (Jul 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He stated in his letter that LIV had agreed to allow him to fulfill all Ryder Cup contractual agreements. 

Most of the European team play out in the US and play only a handful of tournaments on the ET (DPWT now of course). There is no reason why he and others could not do a combination of LIV and ET, the template has already been set.
		
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Will you stop if with the sensible and unbiased views please 😂


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## Orikoru (Jul 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He stated in his letter that LIV had agreed to allow him to fulfill all Ryder Cup contractual agreements.

Most of the European team play out in the US and play only a handful of tournaments on the ET (DPWT now of course). There is no reason why he and others could not do a combination of LIV and ET, the template has already been set.
		
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Exactly this. The captain is always someone who's past their prime and often playing sparingly. I'm sure his intention would have been to retain European Tour membership and divide his time as you said, ensuring he had enough spare time for the captaincy duties.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

IainP said:



			Makes you wonder if they had a commitment to add x more players in July or something. I've said previously I thought they'd have more chance of 'signings' after August.

Don't know how significant this is -
2022 3M  SOF 113, winner 26 points
2021 3M  SOF 222, winner 40 points

The purse looks higher in 2022
		
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There was some social media talk that GN was saying that’s it now for the year , they won’t be asking any others to join. He said if someone approached them then they would look to see what can be done.

The two events after the last major would always be a lot lower in standard

Right now the focus is mainly on the ladies and seniors Tour



Lord Tyrion said:



			He stated in his letter that LIV had agreed to allow him to fulfill all Ryder Cup contractual agreements.

Most of the European team play out in the US and play only a handful of tournaments on the ET (DPWT now of course). There is no reason why he and others could not do a combination of LIV and ET, the template has already been set.
		
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And Ryder Cup stated in their letter than him joining meant he couldn’t fulfill his contractual obligations by joining LiV - what obligations they are could be anything that could include not joining an unofficial recognised tour that isn’t involved in Ryder Cup

And yes the template is there - the players can play on the recognised tours gaining the required points to play

So yes a template where there is a working relationship between the tours

The same would have happened if the US captain left to join LIV . I


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## GB72 (Jul 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He stated in his letter that LIV had agreed to allow him to fulfill all Ryder Cup contractual agreements.

Most of the European team play out in the US and play only a handful of tournaments on the ET (DPWT now of course). There is no reason why he and others could not do a combination of LIV and ET, the template has already been set.
		
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Again, as per my earlier views, if the Ryder Cup Committee had come out and simply stated that the find the Saudi record on human rights abhorrent and so would not tolerate anyone involved with them being part of their event then that would 100% get my support. Unable to fulfil contractual obligations, not so much.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

There are several key points here with Stenson.

* if half his preferred team have left for LIV, does he want to pick a team of up and comers that get hammered?

* did the RC captain just put a higher price tag on his head?

* given past misfortune financially, it was right for “him” and his family.

We need to simply get over it and accept as this tour grows more will follow.  My only sympathy’s are for those starting out their pro career who have chosen LIV who are on borrowed time. As big names come in, they will have to be pushed out in which case it’s humble pie time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 21, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Will you stop if with the sensible and unbiased views please 😂
		
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I'm sorry. I've given myself a slap and normal service can now be renewed


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I agree that the idea of a World Tour sounds great. Have a bunch of 15 or so marquee events, probably 7 or 8 in the US, 3 or 4 in Europe, a couple in SA, one in Oz and one in UAE, one in SE Asia, and that would be great. The regular season PGA Tout and DP World Tour could run as well. 

The problem is that the LIV Tour is driven by 2 unpleasant motivations. 

One is sport washing. There is no doubt that Saudi royal family want to sanitise their image. The only debate is between  people who care about that or not. I expect the Saudis would be happy to work with the PGA Tour to do so. They don't care, their outcome is a laundered public image. 

The other one is Greg Norman, who has a bone to pick with the PGA Tour. He is much less happy to reach agreement, he wants vengeance. He considers that the PGA Tour has not shown him the respect he thinks he deserves. He also bears resentment from the rejection of the mid-90s ideas for a world tour and resents missing out on a career swansong in such a Tour. Adding Trump to the mix is a sure sign he does not want to settle, because the PGA Tour hates Trump and will not have one of his events in their schedule. 

If the LIV Tour wants a deal (as opposed to legal settlement) with the PGA Tour, they need to get rid of Norman and Trump.
		
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Good points.

Personally though, I have no problem either with sportswashing, nor with Norman. The trouble LIV is creating is purely a pro golf as entertainment one for me.

On the world tour element, as a spectator through a screen, which 99.999% of us are, I dont see what that would add. If anything, a US timezone suits great for primetime viewing. Events in Aus or the far East actually takem out of my orbit rather than enhance in anyway. A touring the world F1 style has a superficially positive ring to it. But I dont think it really would in practice for those of us in a lucky timezone.

Lets say LIV wins the civil war. If all top players defect, and all or the bulk of tourneys remain in north America, then I dont care who is running it - as long as they cut out the nonsense gimmicks and get back to proper full fields and 72 holes. And no jazz like teams.


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## PieMan (Jul 21, 2022)

My understanding is the Ryder Cup captaincy is pretty full on, with a considerable amount of obligations and commitments.

Pretty certain the likes of McGinley and Bjorn admitted their playing careers were pretty much put on the back burner with all the other behind the scenes tasks the role demanded.

And then when they did play ET events, they were instrumental in working with the tour and event organisers in grouping players with realistic chances of making the RC team together on practice and tournament days; as well as meeting with individuals to get to know them better.

Given it's probably the ET's most prestigious position with the highest profile, then it's clear you can't have Europe's RC Captain signed up to play a rival tour.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 21, 2022)

Do any of us actually know what these contractual obligations that Stenson says he can fulfil & the Ryder Cup committee say he can't fulfil, are?  Thought not.

Yet there are people hanging their hats on the fact that their side's version is the true one, because their side says so.  You really couldn't make it up.


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## hovis (Jul 21, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do any of us actually know what these contractual obligations that Stenson says he can fulfil & the Ryder Cup committee say he can't fulfil are?  Thought not.

Yet there are people hanging their hats on the fact that their side's version is the true one, because their side says so.  You really couldn't make it up.
		
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I was thinking the same.  Talking about the details about his contract.  Has anyone seen the contract?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			There are several key points here with Stenson.

* if half his preferred team have left for LIV, does he want to pick a team of up and comers that get hammered?

* did the RC captain just put a higher price tag on his head?

* given past misfortune financially, it was right for “him” and his family.

We need to simply get over it and accept as this tour grows more will follow.  My only sympathy’s are for those starting out their pro career who have chosen LIV who are on borrowed time. As big names come in, they will have to be pushed out in which case it’s humble pie time.
		
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To answer the points

1. Doubtful as the Europeans that have left are imo the ones that wouldn’t be at the next Ryder Cup - looking at potential current standings the only player who would get in would be Casey . 

2. Seems he will be getting the same deal as the likes of Westwood etc - he was also reportedly interested before the Mickelson interview and then he accepted the Captaincy , imo if he knew that it would have started then he wouldn’t have taken the captain role 

3. Last the crucial bit within this - he did lose a lot of money in the past 

I think right now LIV have who they can get until the situation in regards ranking points , majors etc or until some solution is found between the tours


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do any of us actually know what these contractual obligations that Stenson says he can fulfil & the Ryder Cup committee say he can't fulfil, are?  Thought not.

Yet there are people hanging their hats on the fact that their side's version is the true one, because their side says so.  You really couldn't make it up.
		
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You wouldn’t leave your current employer to go to their biggest competitor yet still expect the represent them at the annual awards ceremony, the same principle of common sense surely has to apply whether you have seen HS contract or not.

I have a gut feeling on what stenson has done and it was a very smart business based decision although a little under handed, but in his position and based on the past decisions many would have done the same.

As I have made perfectly clear both other tours are out spoken victims around the blood money situation which up until LIV there were prepared to take.

The true standing here would be to terminate any PIF/SA sponsorship of its events with immediate effect…. But they want their cake and to eat it twice.


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## Imurg (Jul 21, 2022)

Here's something I'm struggling to get my head around....
The Majesticks (Jeez what a crap name) team is made up of Westy, Poulter,  Horsefield and Cantor. 
I'm sure I read, in the blurb for the Centurion event, that this team was set for the first 4 LIV events.
Stenson id going straight into the team so either Cantor or Horsefield are out, assuming they want to keep the other 2....
So what happens to the one who's dropped after 2 events..? When the team was set for the first 4..?
I appreciate that they will keep some players on a "retainer" in case of injury etc but these guys want to play golf, ok a bit less than they used to, they don't want to be sitting on their backsides every week as their games will get rusty..
The DP guys can probably play some events but the ex PGA guys..? (Assuming some of them get dropped to fit in a Cam Smith/Matsuyama etc etc.. )
I'd be more than a bit miffed if I'd, potentially,  given up my chances on the DP for 4 events with LIV but getting dropped after 2....hope he still gets all his cash....


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			As I have made perfectly clear both other tours are out spoken victims around the blood money situation which up until LIV there were prepared to take.
		
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Can you back up or reference the above charges against the other tours ?

Some people certainly are critical of the Saudi source of the LIV money.

But are the tours ? If they are, then yes, they are hypocritical, and chamging their policy for commercial not moral reasons.
If not, then people are unfairly linking a charge that some are making, as being made by the two main tours.

Have you a direct quote, or link from them on this point ?


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I think there are clearly divided opinions on what is a very political topic.  I think based on that I’m going to continue lurking on this thread but not comment, it seems any conflicting opinion is like trying to put a forest fire out with petrol… it get heated!

In summary of my views please of offend

, I think LIV is here whether it’s for the good of the sport or not. The PGA has done a great job al be it with ZERO competition, but if LIV attracts a different audience and grows the sport further it has to be a great outcome.  Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport.  Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.

Do we agree with the source of the funds, probably not but as I’ve commented before to accept sponsorship money for the other tours from the same sources is hypocrisy of the highest order. By the same token we all buy goods which no doubt have links whether it be fuel for the cars etc etc, so I find it impossible for us to sit in our ivory towers whiter than white.

Their country has an appalling history and if their investment in pro sports forces change via global acknowledgement and educations of its past then it has to be a positive.  I was pretty oblivious to its history until it caused outrage when F1 went there, now golf and no doubt other sports if I did some digging.

My “personal” opinion is that the US tour found it perfectly acceptable to pillage every high profile player they wanted from Europe with a clear conscience and are now playing the victim when the favour is returned. I find it even more amazing that the euro tours have sided with the US tour given the damage it done to their “ brand “ as “ brand damage “ seems to be a big headline argument, to me it’s no different.  Imagine being a character witness in court for the man who’s just burgled your house? The DP / euro tours had the perfect opportunity to have LIV host the big money events, have access to some high profile (past it or not) players for their events and the bottled it.

Enjoy the disagreeing

HighHorseSocks over and out.
		
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It's not an airport mate, you don't need to announce your departure


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## Bazzatron (Jul 21, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Wayne Grady laying it down on Greg. Ouch.

View attachment 43552

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And then his son in law took the cash.


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## Depreston (Jul 21, 2022)

Bazzatron said:



			And then his son in law took the cash.
		
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Did he who is that


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Can you back up or reference the above charges against the other tours ?

Some people certainly are critical of the Saudi source of the LIV money.

But are the tours ? If they are, then yes, they are hypocritical, and chamging their policy for commercial not moral reasons.
If not, then people are unfairly linking a charge that some are making, as being made by the two main tours.

Have you a direct quote, or link from them on this point ?
		
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Both tours have made references to the sources in which the Saudi money comes from, the sporting community like wise yet both tours still allow Saudi sponsors which is total hypocrisy.  

You cannot condem the source of the money as the funding for LIV on one hand but be open to accepting financial sponsorship to support your events or tours on the other hand.

It’s black and white when it comes to banning players however it’s grey when is comes to receiving our scouting event sponsors.

Hey that’s just my opinion, it’s a personal view and is not factual. However some on here believe their views “ are factually correct” and everyone else remains wrong.


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## Orikoru (Jul 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Here's something I'm struggling to get my head around....
The Majesticks (Jeez what a crap name) team is made up of Westy, Poulter,  Horsefield and Cantor.
I'm sure I read, in the blurb for the Centurion event, that this team was set for the first 4 LIV events.
Stenson id going straight into the team so either Cantor or Horsefield are out, assuming they want to keep the other 2....
So what happens to the one who's dropped after 2 events..? When the team was set for the first 4..?
I appreciate that they will keep some players on a "retainer" in case of injury etc but these guys want to play golf, ok a bit less than they used to, they don't want to be sitting on their backsides every week as their games will get rusty..
The DP guys can probably play some events but the ex PGA guys..? (Assuming some of them get dropped to fit in a Cam Smith/Matsuyama etc etc.. )
I'd be more than a bit miffed if I'd, potentially,  given up my chances on the DP for 4 events with LIV but getting dropped after 2....hope he still gets all his cash....
		
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I agree.. I think if they end up doing better than they thought in attracting people they may have to drop the team element altogether.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 21, 2022)

Seen on here that some people seem to think I'm completely PRO Liv and Anti PGA Tour.

Simply not true I love watching the big historic PGA tour events and the Majors.
Im just keeping an open mind to Liv as I think some of what they are trying to do is good for attracting a younger audience to the game of golf which I genuinely think the sport needs.
Golf still has an image by the younger generation (speak to my teenage kids) of older guys/gals playing a not very exciting sport at very expensive golf courses.

I think some of what Liv are trying to do helps with attracting a younger audience, for example they are so much more open to letting social media content be involved in their events. I watched Brysons Portland video on his you tube channel last night. Young people dont watch Sky Sports, Golf Channel or NBC they watch Tik Tok and You Tube.

Liv doesnt look like its going anywhere soon so lets just get used to that.
If there are some top 50 players going to Liv they aint gonna go till the 2022 Fed Ex is finished.

The truth is that it is impossible right now to predict the golfing landscape in the next 24 months but in that time it would appear Liv is going to get stronger but whether that ever gets to a tipping point where more top 50 players are on Liv is hard to say and people on this thread can say its going to happen or no chance of it happening but no one really has a clue apart from Greg Norman who has his 2023 roster already signed up for next year and knows how many other top players he has considering a move.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

@TheBigDraw  - I couldn’t agree more 👏👏👏

I’ve actually thought about this over a nice flat white with an extra shot from Nero…. As you do.

A few have commented that once signing for a substantial pay cheque (which is no doubt relevant to their potential earnings over a set period) players have little motivation to play well as they have already cashed in, I myself also had concerns for the younger players who have potentially burned bridges, but here’s the twist.

With a limited field with limited spaces a regularly low scoring player is always at risk and surely there lies the motivations.  Looking at Portland results Shaun Norris and Jediah Morgan would have no doubt earned more in that one event than they may have earned in a couple of years on whichever their current tour was.

With that in mind irrespective of their earnings as a low finisher their older has to be a risk with limited spaces and as the high profiles come in the lower ranked players will have to step up or get benched.

Out of nothing more than curiosity, have any of the tours issued statements as the the process required to re qualify to a tour should the player want to quit LIV.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



@TheBigDraw  - I couldn’t agree more 👏👏👏

I’ve actually thought about this over a nice flat white with an extra shot from Nero…. As you do.

A few have commented that once signing for a substantial pay cheque (which is no doubt relevant to their potential earnings over a set period) players have little motivation to play well as they have already cashed in, I myself also had concerns for the younger players who have potentially burned bridges, but here’s the twist.

With a limited field with limited spaces a regularly low scoring player is always at risk and surely there lies the motivations.  Looking at Portland results Shaun Norris and Jediah Morgan would have no doubt earned more in that one event than they may have earned in a couple of years on whichever their current tour was.

With that in mind irrespective of their earnings as a low finisher their older has to be a risk with limited spaces and as the high profiles come in the lower ranked players will have to step up or get benched.

Out of nothing more than curiosity, have any of the tours issued statements as the the process required to re qualify to a tour should the player want to quit LIV.
		
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Some of the lesser known players who are propping up the LIV scoring will have to be kicked out as more players come in.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some of the lesser known players who are propping up the LIV scoring will have to be kicked out as more players come in.
		
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That’s just common sense Ethan. As I said with limited spaces as higher ranked players come in, lesser ranked players be benched or leave.

I’m curious as to their options should they be dropped from Liv


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some of the lesser known players who are propping up the LIV scoring will have to be kicked out as more players come in.
		
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That applies to any tour, in fact any sport. I don’t know why people are making such a big deal about it. The lower ranked players will know the score, they know they can fall back on the Asian tour (which is growing), so if they have a couple of events on LIV, they’re quids in, and back to where they were prior to a couple of financially rewarding LIV events.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Seen on here that some people seem to think I'm completely PRO Liv and Anti PGA Tour.

Simply not true I love watching the big historic PGA tour events and the Majors.
Im just keeping an open mind to Liv as I think some of what they are trying to do is good for attracting a younger audience to the game of golf which I genuinely think the sport needs.
Golf still has an image by the younger generation (speak to my teenage kids) of older guys/gals playing a not very exciting sport at very expensive golf courses.

I think some of what Liv are trying to do helps with attracting a younger audience, for example they are so much more open to letting social media content be involved in their events. I watched Brysons Portland video on his you tube channel last night. Young people dont watch Sky Sports, Golf Channel or NBC they watch Tik Tok and You Tube.

Liv doesnt look like its going anywhere soon so lets just get used to that.
If there are some top 50 players going to Liv they aint gonna go till the 2022 Fed Ex is finished.

The truth is that it is impossible right now to predict the golfing landscape in the next 24 months but in that time it would appear Liv is going to get stronger but whether that ever gets to a tipping point where more top 50 players are on Liv is hard to say and people on this thread can say its going to happen or no chance of it happening but no one really has a clue apart from Greg Norman who has his 2023 roster already signed up for next year and knows how many other top players he has considering a move.
		
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The question I have asked in the post -

How does the events appeal to younger people compared to the standard events ? 

What is the difference between the 6’s they tried ? 

Is it because it’s broadcast on a tablet/smartphone friendly 

As for the future - what happens next will mainly determined by what happens with ranking points etc - if LIV events get ranking points that allows entry into majors then that’s a game changer


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That applies to any tour, in fact any sport. I don’t know why people are making such a big deal about it. The lower ranked players will know the score, they know they can fall back on the Asian tour (which is growing), so if they have a couple of events on LIV, they’re quids in, and back to where they were prior to a couple of financially rewarding LIV events.
		
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Is it lower ranked in terms of performance? 

Two of the worst performing players are Phil Mickleson and McDowell - two players who have been paid to be there , would they get kicked out ? Or would it be players above then but who haven’t been paid money to be there ? 

There is no doubt some players will have been given guarantees - playing in each event etc - regardless of how they perform, 

Is that the same as other tours ? It doesn’t matter who you are - if your spot 126 then you lose your card. If Micklson comes last every event will he lose his playing rights on LiV tour


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That applies to any tour, in fact any sport. I don’t know why people are making such a big deal about it. The lower ranked players will know the score, they know they can fall back on the Asian tour (which is growing), so if they have a couple of events on LIV, they’re quids in, and back to where they were prior to a couple of financially rewarding LIV events.
		
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Back on the Asian Tour having previously been on the PGA or DP World Tour, but now banned from those, not so good. I doubt they will adopt the same breezy attitude that you have. These guys think they are making a one-way trip to a land of mucho moolah.


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## Imurg (Jul 21, 2022)

The ex PGA boys will have to play a good few Asian events to match their PGA earnings which means spending a fair chunk of time crossing the Pacific every week...
They might be OK..
Guys like Horsefield or Cantor....might have to come back to the DP...what sort of reception will he get from his fellow Pros who maybe resent what they've done?
The conversations could be brief if either are paired with EddieP..


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The question I have asked in the post -

*How does the events appeal to younger people compared to the standard events ? *

What is the difference between the 6’s they tried ? 

Is it because it’s broadcast on a tablet/smartphone friendly 

As for the future - what happens next will mainly determined by what happens with ranking points etc - if LIV events get ranking points that allows entry into majors then that’s a game changer
		
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For me in short golf is pretty boring to watch on the TV unless on the odd occasion you get a nail biting finish, the open was a great example of this and while the tension and competition was building the whole round, it really come into its prime on the back 9.  

The die hards (or duffers) will appreciate the pedigree, history and intensity to this but there is an element of the community pre LIV that just wouldn’t and haven’t engaged in 4 day all day viewing, 10hrs a day.  The younger and especially the younger noobs to the hand  have young family’s, busy personal life’s, work longer hours and whether we like it or not want everything at a faster pace and LIV fits that profile.

Factor that in with slow play and pro rounds were ridiculous for a bunch of groups let alone the final 5-10 groups each day and people disconnect.

On the final day I only switched on for the final three groups as that’s where the action was and I couldn’t justify a complete day.

I like the concept of the team event although I would like to see the teams remain for more then one round, but the facts are: 
A) the 10hrs of viewing in now 5hrs, people will generally stay engaged for the shorter period.
B) there is also the team event comp running at the same time, someone can be having a stinker but still acknowledge they are contributing to a team score.
C) the commentary seems more energetic and not dull. Self explanatory, even the wife has commented on this.
D) I don’t need an expensive TV package to watch it. The future is other media platforms and LIV have jumped on this.
E) I can catch up weeks later via digital platforms.  I can’t always sit down on broad cart days especially stateside stuff. However, I can catch up on an hour here, 30mins on the train etc.

Different approaches will appeal to different people, and if nothing more i hope it’s a success.

No doubt someone will disagree.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			For me in short golf is pretty boring to watch on the TV unless on the odd occasion you get a nail biting finish, the open was a great example of this and while the tension and competition was building the whole round, it really come into its prime on the back 9. 

The die hards (or duffers) will appreciate the pedigree, history and intensity to this but there is an element of the community pre LIV that just wouldn’t and haven’t engaged in 4 day all day viewing, 10hrs a day.  The younger and especially the younger noobs to the hand  have young family’s, busy personal life’s, work longer hours and whether we like it or not want everything at a faster pace and LIV fits that profile.

Factor that in with slow play and pro rounds were ridiculous for a bunch of groups let alone the final 5-10 groups each day and people disconnect.

On the final day I only switched on for the final three groups as that’s where the action was and I couldn’t justify a complete day.

I like the concept of the team event although I would like to see the teams remain for more then one round, but the facts are:
A) the 10hrs of viewing in now 5hrs, people will generally stay engaged for the shorter period.
B) there is also the team event comp running at the same time, someone can be having a stinker but still acknowledge they are contributing to a team score.
C) the commentary seems more energetic and not dull. Self explanatory, even the wife has commented on this.
D) I don’t need an expensive TV package to watch it. The future is other media platforms and LIV have jumped on this.
E) I can catch up weeks later via digital platforms.  I can’t always sit down on broad cart days especially stateside stuff. However, I can catch up on an hour here, 30mins on the train etc.

Different approaches will appeal to different people, and if nothing more i hope it’s a success.

No doubt someone will disagree.
		
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Cheers 

By condensing the action into a small time slot do you think there is a risk of missing lots of the action ? Of the action I saw it just seemed to jump from putt to putt , didn’t seen much ball striking etc - but that’s got to be hard to show action when they are all on the course at the same time. 

Slow play won’t go because its a shotgun start

The event is finished quickly - yep its prob half the time , so I’m guessing depending on time zones etc events in the US will probably start late ? ( we normally get the early starters/group around tee times etc ) 

The one thing I find with the tour events is you can jump in and out and still get a feel of how the comp is going. 

Teams - I just don’t get it , i support teams in other sports when they are working together to get a result , it just doesn’t seem or feel right when it’s manufactured together. 

When it was 6’s it was great , they were together in the same team playing in the same tee time - that allowed them to form a partnership- it also only took just under 2 hours 

Commentary ? About to get David Feherty and Charles Barkley - I guess it was a bit Chris Kamara and a bit more “bumbling” - a bit like the TT commentary. It’s a fair shout that the standard Tour commentary isn’t “exciting” - it’s more technical as such 

Media platform - if it stays on free social media then yep that’s a huge selling point for them , the others do have some level of social media but not full events. The question is will it always be on free social media ? 

And as for disagreeing or agreeing - that’s just people having a debate , your points and opinions are valid and put across respectfully, you clearly aren’t a fan of the current tour viewing experience- I can certainly see why that is ( I don’t really watch much beyond the majors. 

The issues I have are more the administration of the LiV by Norman and how he is going about it all


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Back on the Asian Tour having previously been on the PGA or DP World Tour, but now banned from those, not so good. I doubt they will adopt the same breezy attitude that you have. These guys think they are making a one-way trip to a land of mucho moolah.
		
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The Asian Tour will surpass the DP tour in the coming years, and besides, how many ex DP or PGA tour players can you name that have now had to seek refuge on the Asian Tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Asian Tour will surpass the DP tour in the coming years, and besides, how many ex DP or PGA tour players can you name that have now had to seek refuge on the Asian Tour.
		
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Why will the Asian Tour surpass the ET ? 

The Asian Tour isn’t even at the level of the Japanese or Sunshine Tour right now


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will the Asian Tour surpass the ET ?

The Asian Tour isn’t even at the level of the Japanese or Sunshine Tour right now
		
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Because the prize money is increasing, the international series is being expanded, and some of the Worlds best players look likely to transition from LIV

Meanwhile the DP tours best players are offski to the PGA Tour.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Asian Tour will surpass the DP tour in the coming years, and besides, how many ex DP or PGA tour players can you name that have now had to seek refuge on the Asian Tour.
		
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If they are banned from their original Tours there will be some.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cheers 



And as for disagreeing or agreeing - that’s just people having a debate , your points and opinions are valid and put across respectfully, you clearly aren’t a fan of the current tour viewing experience- I can certainly see why that is ( I don’t really watch much beyond the majors. 

The issues I have are more the administration of the LiV by Norman and how he is going about it all
		
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I tend to watch the majors only because the rest just drags, even recently some of the majors seem flat and I normally doze off. I love the sport how ever I’d go as far to say I’m more engaged in Tv Football verses golf and that’s coming from someone who doesn’t follow football.

Re the administration of liv, while his actions may not meet the approval of the traditionalist of our sport, taking on multiple tours to create his own was never going to win friends.  

Like any business he has had to rock multiple boats and if you take your moral hat off, he has kept liv at the fore front of most media platforms and forums etc so he’s plan is actually pretty well thought out and he has done well.  

The recent stenson poach I mean come on… its melted the internet on all platforms and no doubt his next moves are an ready planned. The same with Bryson, kepka etc, he is constantly in the media.  He is a man with a very strategic plan and it’s working, approve or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because the prize money is increasing, the international series is being expanded, and some of the Worlds best players look likely to transition from LIV

Meanwhile the DP tours best players are offski to the PGA Tour.
		
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So you think it will surpass based on the money then ?

Which players are “offski” to the PGA and no longer on the ET ? 

The field at the most recent DP Event was the stronger than any event on LIV or Asian Tour 

The ET and RTD have access into the majors , wgc , Ryder Cup - it has the new co sanctioned events between the PGA and ET - if anything it’s getting stronger and holds more cards than the Asian Tour can gain


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If they are banned from their original Tours there will be some.
		
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But you can’t name them…?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I tend to watch the majors only because the rest just drags, even recently some of the majors seem flat and I normally doze off. I love the sport how ever I’d go as far to say I’m more engaged in Tv Football verses golf and that’s coming from someone who doesn’t follow football.

Re the administration of liv, while his actions may not meet the approval of the traditionalist of our sport, taking on multiple tours to create his own was never going to win friends. 

Like any business he has had to rock multiple boats and if you take your moral hat off, he has kept liv at the fore front of most media platforms and forums etc so he’s plan is actually pretty well thought out and he has done well. 

The recent stenson poach I mean come on… its melted the internet on all platforms and no doubt his next moves are an ready planned. The same with Bryson, kepka etc, he is constantly in the media.  He is a man with a very strategic plan and it’s working, approve or not.
		
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He is man with deep pockets - a man who can use unlimited wealth to attract players. 

There isn’t much game plan or strategy involved imo - it’s putting a lot of money on a fishing rod and seeing who bites and grabbing them - as with human nature there will always be people looking to increase their wealth and he went for the right people

As for rocking the boat - that’s what he wants to do because it seems of last grudges etc - there was lots of talk of growing the game etc but getting Stenson has nothing to do with growing the game 

I still think if they had someone instead of GN then this would all be worked out a lot better and the Tours would be working with LIV etc - but with Norman there it’s just never going to happen , I think it will get to a stage where they will need to replace him , did read an article that Mark King ( ex head of TM )  was being spoken to 

I don’t expect any bridges being built with Norman there - and I don’t tbink the tour will progress beyond an exhibition with a mix of players until Norman goes


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 21, 2022)

Still groundhog day in here.....


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But you can’t name them…?
		
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It is in the future, obviously. Surely even you realise that?

Apologies for not being psychic about exactly which of the current makeweight players seduced into joining the LIV Tour will be kicked to the kerb, but there will be some.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It is in the future, obviously. Surely even you realise that?

Apologies for not being psychic about exactly which of the current makeweight players seduced into joining the LIV Tour will be kicked to the kerb, but there will be some.
		
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What’s in the future? There are already players that have been dropped from LIV series, that’s in the past. 

Can you name any that haven’t been able to go back to their respective tours?


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What’s in the future? There are already players that have been dropped from LIV series, that’s in the past.

Can you name any that haven’t been able to go back to their respective tours?
		
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I haven't been following the careers of players I had not previously heard of. Let me know when someone more famous has been dropped. Better still, let me know what they are doing next yourself, because I probably won't care about them. 

The username LordHawHaw is free. You should consider it as the LIV Tour propagandist in chief around here.


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## Jigger (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I agree it’s a decent idea but that’s 70 players missing out from either tour - what about all those players that have qualifed with a full Tour card ? Why should they miss out ?

But that would still be subsidised in some way because it would still be the mens game bringing in the sponserships

There have been a number of mixed events - Sweden did one , 6’s etc

But the set up within the game is reflective of the dynamics within the game right now

Equality is great but must be equal in all aspects
		
Click to expand...

I could flip that around and say it’s ok for women to miss out then?

In the end of the day people want to see top elite players and sponsors want that too. As a spectator, If the men aren’t good enough to be in the top 70 then tough quite frankly. They can go play on the Korn ferry and make a few hundred grand.


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## RRidges (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What’s in the future? There are already players that have been dropped from LIV series, that’s in the past.

Can you name any that haven’t been able to go back to their respective tours?
		
Click to expand...

Please tell us which ones.
I can't find any reference to them, though it's probably not something GN would want to broadcast.
Internal document only? Or maybe just something else made up.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Jaysus, I'm now making up that players who played at Centurion are no longer on the roster due to the new players that have signed up.

This place is absolutely friggin mental.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Jaysus, I'm now making up that players who played at Centurion are no longer on the roster due to the new players that have signed up.

This place is absolutely friggin mental. 

Click to expand...

Well, you said some players had been kicked off. Who?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, you said some players had been kicked off. Who?
		
Click to expand...

Gonna be honest here Ethan, I don't know. I could go and look them up, but I'm not doing that for the benefit for the likes of you, RR, and Liverpoolphl. 

I know Ogletree was out after London, and off the top of my head I think the 15 year old Chantananawut is out - although he did play in the the Junior Open a couple of weeks back where he finished 2nd.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Lets get back to relevant info


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550133444646256640


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Both tours have made references to the sources in which the Saudi money comes from, the sporting community like wise yet both tours still allow Saudi sponsors which is total hypocrisy. 

You cannot condem the source of the money as the funding for LIV on one hand but be open to accepting financial sponsorship to support your events or tours on the other hand.

It’s black and white when it comes to banning players however it’s grey when is comes to receiving our scouting event sponsors.

Hey that’s just my opinion, it’s a personal view and is not factual. However some on here believe their views “ are factually correct” and everyone else remains wrong.
		
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Not really answering my question though. That is simply restating that the tours have made such references.
 When ? Who ? When ?


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## Backsticks (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lets get back to relevant info


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550133444646256640

Click to expand...

You can't polish a turd. The nonsense of teams is just spiraling into the twilight zone. How can anyone with a knowledge of golf actually think people will take any notice, care, support, such an artificial team creation in an individual sport?
The whole world is laughing at the ineptitude.


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## PieMan (Jul 21, 2022)

Of course it's not about the money......


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## PieMan (Jul 21, 2022)

"It's golf but lucre" is probably a more appropriate tag line!!! 😉


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## IainP (Jul 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you think it will surpass based on the money then ?

Which players are “offski” to the PGA and no longer on the ET ?

*The field at the most recent DP Event was the stronger than any event on LIV or Asian Tour*

The ET and RTD have access into the majors , wgc , Ryder Cup - it has the new co sanctioned events between the PGA and ET - if anything it’s getting stronger and holds more cards than the Asian Tour can gain
		
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Just to clarify were you including co-sanctioned events?
If so, then the Barracuda Championship
If not then the Irish Open 
Or have I misunderstood?


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## pokerjoke (Jul 21, 2022)

Go back and read the first 20 pages of this thread it’s quite a good read.
The amount of posters who thought this was a non starter.
It’s getting bigger,it will get even bigger,and here to stay.
The PGA tour will probably end up being the 2nd biggest tour.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Gonna be honest here Ethan, I don't know. I could go and look them up, but I'm not doing that for the benefit for the likes of you, RR, and Liverpoolphl.

I know Ogletree was out after London, and off the top of my head I think the 15 year old Chantananawut is out - although he did play in the the Junior Open a couple of weeks back where he finished 2nd.
		
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They are both still listed on the LIV player roster. Maybe there is some rotation or opt-in/out element.


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## GGTTH (Jul 21, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			They are both still listed on the LIV player roster. Maybe there is some rotation or opt-in/out element.
		
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Quite feasible, that as the series develops, they'll utilise players based on logistics, form, availability etc. As I said, the Asian Tour is their safety net, and they'll all be aware of that when they sign up - particularly the lesser known players who could be in and out of the draft.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

GGTTH said:



View attachment 43576

Click to expand...

The company mentioned is a UK listed company registered at Companies House with an address in Reading.


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## sunshine (Jul 21, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I thought it was a fair statement from Stenson and I agreed with him to be honest. I don't see why playing LIV events should preclude him from being RC Captain, other than the suspensions which are borne out of pettiness and desperation.
		
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Really? This is like Harry Kane moving to Arsenal and then saying he’d like to continue playing for Spurs in the champions league. 

I understand totally why Stenson has gone to Liv. They’ve made him an offer he can’t refuse, and he would be missing out massively compared to his contemporaries like Westwood if he turned it down. But he’s signed up with a direct competitor to the European tour, they can’t keep him captain.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 21, 2022)

GGTTH said:



View attachment 43576

Click to expand...

The company at No 2 on the right - Sanabil Investments - have many fingers, in many pies, all over the world.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 21, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Really? This is like Harry Kane moving to Arsenal and then saying he’d like to continue playing for Spurs in the champions league.

I understand totally why Stenson has gone to Liv. They’ve made him an offer he can’t refuse, and he would be missing out massively compared to his contemporaries like Westwood if he turned it down. But he’s signed up with a direct competitor to the European tour, they can’t keep him captain.
		
Click to expand...

Thought padraigs interview was a bit stupid... "I wish he had waited 15 months before deciding to go to not unsettle the Ryder cup" what actual planet is he on with that thinking? The offer was a power play. If he wasn't captain of the Ryder cup the offer wouldn't be there / as much


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not really answering my question though. That is simply restating that the tours have made such references.
 When ? Who ? When ?
		
Click to expand...

And it’s winding you up isn’t it?


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## Stuart_C (Jul 21, 2022)

I dont understand why professional golf needs another tour and especially one with a format that LIV are selling. Its not something that i'd be willing to pay to watch.

If the money wasnt so good there wouldn't be no discussion.


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## Harry Putter (Jul 21, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			I dont understand why professional golf needs another tour and especially one with a format that LIV are selling. Its not something that i'd be willing to pay to watch.
		
Click to expand...

I'm a golf viewing fanatic and do actually watch the DP Tour Thursdays and Fridays.. love seeing relatively unknown pros fight for their professional status, knowing that a missed putt could be a missed cut and no money.. they are fighting for their livlihood and it's exciting. I enjoy seeing talented young pros like the Hojgaard brothers hugely improve and learn to compete against other talented golfers.

I had a look at LIV online but found watching tired old multi-millionaires dobbing it around for a guaranteed paycheck that they don't need totally underwhelming.  Add in the dire commentary and team element that nobody cares about, and it's a no from me.


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## sunshine (Jul 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Seen on here that some people seem to think I'm completely PRO Liv and Anti PGA Tour.

Simply not true I love watching the big historic PGA tour events and the Majors.
Im just keeping an open mind to Liv as I think some of what they are trying to do is good for attracting a younger audience to the game of golf which I genuinely think the sport needs.
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣 And then you go on to type out a long promotion of Liv. 

You are blatantly on the Liv payroll. You’re not kidding anyone 🤣🤣🤣


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## sunshine (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Both tours have made references to the sources in which the Saudi money comes from, the sporting community like wise yet both tours still allow Saudi sponsors which is total hypocrisy.
		
Click to expand...

This post demonstrates the success of the Liv propaganda campaign on social media. The misinformation posted by the likes of Mel smooth (and I’m sure there’s plenty more on other platforms) has successfully confused you. 

Yes Ethan has commented on the blood money sports-washing source of funding. Have the PGA Tour or DP? I don’t think so. But there’s always people easily confused. 🤦‍♂️

You guys need to read George Orwell


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## Marshy77 (Jul 21, 2022)

sunshine said:



			You guys need to read George Orwell
		
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Which tour does he play on?


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## Bazzatron (Jul 21, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Did he who is that
		
Click to expand...

Ignore me, I read it as Wayne Gretzky 🤣🤣🤣


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Which tour does he play on?
		
Click to expand...

Chuckle chuckle chuckle 👏


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## RRidges (Jul 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Gonna be honest here Ethan, I don't know. I could go and look them up, but I'm not doing that for the benefit for the likes of you, RR, and Liverpoolphl.

I know Ogletree was out after London, and off the top of my head I think the 15 year old Chantananawut is out - although he did play in the the Junior Open a couple of weeks back where he finished 2nd.
		
Click to expand...

So a claim that you can't/won't verify. Doesn't strike me as a very good approach. 
Ditching Ogletree could well have been an expensive exercise. There were reports of his contract being worth 200 million. He did come last at Centurion though. I haven't saan anything about him being accepted back into The PGA Tour though. That's something that would be pretty big news.
Chantananawut's participation in the Junior Open had no Tour implications, as it's an R&A event, just as the imminent US Junior Open is a USGA one.
LIV's SA masters strategy with the Asian Tour is a pretty smart one. Basically buying a tour that can award OWGR points, albeit not at a high rate currently. If LIV stacks some events with some of its top players, the soon to be implemented changes wrt 'field rating' could help.


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## sunshine (Jul 21, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Which tour does he play on?
		
Click to expand...

Good one 🤣

Think he was on the Spanish tour in the 1930s then defected to the Dystopian World Tour in the 40s.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 22, 2022)

RRidges said:



			So a claim that you can't/won't verify. Doesn't strike me as a very good approach.
*Ditching Ogletree could well have been an expensive exercise. There were reports of his contract being worth 200 million.* He did come last at Centurion though. *I haven't saan anything about him being accepted back into The PGA Tour though.* That's something that would be pretty big news.
Chantananawut's participation in the Junior Open had no Tour implications, as it's an R&A event, just as the imminent US Junior Open is a USGA one.
LIV's SA masters strategy with the Asian Tour is a pretty smart one. Basically buying a tour that can award OWGR points, albeit not at a high rate currently. If LIV stacks some events with some of its top players, the soon to be implemented changes wrt 'field rating' could help.
		
Click to expand...


Lol, there is no way on gods green earth that Ogletree was given a contract worth 200 million,I won't ask you to verify it. 
His last event on the PGA Tour was in January, and one of his grievances with the PGA tour was he wasn't getting the opportunities he felt he deserved - but he definitely wouldn't have been expecting to be back playing PGA Tour events right now.


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, there is no way on gods green earth that Ogletree was given a contract worth 200 million,I won't ask you to verify it. 
His last event on the PGA Tour was in January, and one of his grievances with the PGA tour was he wasn't getting the opportunities he felt he deserved - but he definitely wouldn't have been expecting to be back playing PGA Tour events right now.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have thought so either, but who knows given what exaggeration and plain rubbish has been spouted wrt LIV.
Here's the article that mentioned 200 million btw. https://ghanafuo.com/how-much-did-andy-ogletree-get-paid-for-liv/


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

So it seems in keep with slot of Luther big signings, Mr Stenson lost his long term sponsor A Mutual Of Omaha. Obvious he is not the first big signing to lose a sponsor, the most recent headline was DeShambles losing Bridgestone.

I’m curious as to the reasoning behind people losing sponsors because of the series.  Is it because they feel they will not get the value of their investment through less events and less air time or simply because the prefer to be represented on the main tours?

It’s quite strange as there are rumours adidas are trying to buy a team name for $1bil.


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## IainP (Jul 22, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



*I dont understand why professional golf needs another tour* and especially one with a format that LIV are selling. Its not something that i'd be willing to pay to watch.

If the money wasnt so good there wouldn't be no discussion.
		
Click to expand...

Inclined to agree, but wonder if the bookies around the globe would agree...


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## Backsticks (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			And it’s winding you up isn’t it?
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean you are just trolling ?

Anyway, no, but its worth pointing out a claim you have repeatedly failed to back up.


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So it seems in keep with slot of Luther big signings, Mr Stenson lost his long term sponsor A Mutual Of Omaha. Obvious he is not the first big signing to lose a sponsor, the most recent headline was DeShambles losing Bridgestone.

I’m curious as to the reasoning behind people losing sponsors because of the series.  Is it because they feel they will not get the value of their investment through less events and less air time or simply because the prefer to be represented on the main tours?

It’s quite strange as there are rumours adidas are trying to buy a team name for $1bil.
		
Click to expand...

Different sponsors have different attitudes. Mutual of Omaha (a US insurance company) presumably thinks the association will harm their brand. Whether or not you think the Saudi royal family had anything to do with 9/11 or not, it does disquiet some Americans, so the association is toxic.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Do you mean you are just trolling ?

Anyway, no, but its worth pointing out a claim you have repeatedly failed to back up.
		
Click to expand...

I have seen various posts from people of differing tours that give the impression exactly as I described, however I did not bookmark the link or screen shot the article just incase someone disagreed with my view on a chat forum, sorry.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Different sponsors have different attitudes. Mutual of Omaha (a US insurance company) presumably thinks the association will harm their brand. Whether or not you think the Saudi royal family had anything to do with 9/11 or not, it does disquiet some Americans, so the association is toxic.
		
Click to expand...

Is it simply American based sponsors dropping?


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Is it simply American based sponsors dropping?
		
Click to expand...

Bridgestone are Japanese.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Bridgestone are Japanese.
		
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I knew the forging was based in Japan, wasn’t aware if the full company was.  It’s interesting to see why some sponsors have run a mile and others have stayed committed.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It’s interesting to see why some sponsors have run a mile and others have stayed committed.
		
Click to expand...

Follow the money.


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Bridgestone are Japanese.
		
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Big US presence, though. Also close to PGA Tour.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

So with big brands walking away (example Bridgestone) is now the time for smaller brands like vice to sweep in and support this tour from early stages.  There seems a great opportunity for newer or less established brands


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So with big brands walking away (example Bridgestone) is now the time for smaller brands like vice to sweep in and support this tour from early stages.  There seems a great opportunity for newer or less established brands
		
Click to expand...

The USP of companies like Vice & Benross is that they can cut their costs and sell at lower prices because they cut out sponsorship; why would they now turn that on its head?


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The USP of companies like Vice & Benross is that they can cut their costs and sell at lower prices because they cut out sponsorship; why would they now turn that on its head?
		
Click to expand...

They would pick up some recognised players (let’s say bottom 28 from 48) and a far more reasonable price tag opposed to the headliners.  Increase their brand exposure and effectively credibility as a premium ball for a fraction of the investment the likes of srixon, titleist and Bridgestone have to commit to for the big names on main tours.

I’m solely hypothesising here, but there has to be potential with big names now being out of contract.

It’s also going to see which sponsors carry on as is (Nike and Kepka) as an example.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the brands continuing have financial links to investment from that region.

If we are taking the moral high ground against LIV and is financial sources, do the anti live group now boycott these brands?


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## Beezerk (Jul 22, 2022)

Jamie Donaldson on Radio 5 just a short while ago, a lot of waffle at first but made some reasonable points about Stenson and some older golfers signing up. It was also refreshing having a decent interviewer who wasn’t trying to virtue signal and points score.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I wouldn’t be surprised if the brands continuing have financial links to investment from that region.
		
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but Vice is specifically a bad example. Their business model is direct to consumer, specifically not to be involved in tour level sponsorships, they are founded by two seemingly liberal German lawyers and after a quick check to reinforce my suspicions turns out they are funded by Oakley Capital, a European firm who's environmental, diversity, ethics and sustainability policy couldn't be any further from Saudi's if it tried.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Well, yes, but Vice is specifically a bad example. Their business model is direct to consumer, specifically not to be involved in tour level sponsorships, they are founded by two seemingly liberal German lawyers and after a quick check to reinforce my suspicions turns out they are funded by Oakley Capital, a European firm who's environmental, diversity, ethics and sustainability policy couldn't be any further from Saudi's if it tried.
		
Click to expand...

Ok bad example as no research had be carried out at the time of posting, but the theory remains the same in principle.


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## Springveldt (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			They would pick up some recognised players (let’s say bottom 28 from 48) and a far more reasonable price tag opposed to the headliners.  Increase their brand exposure and effectively credibility as a premium ball for a fraction of the investment the likes of srixon, titleist and Bridgestone have to commit to for the big names on main tours.

I’m solely hypothesising here, but there has to be potential with big names now being out of contract.

It’s also going to see which sponsors carry on as is (Nike and Kepka) as an example.

*I wouldn’t be surprised if the brands continuing have financial links to investment from that region.*

If we are taking the moral high ground against LIV and is financial sources, do the anti live group now boycott these brands?
		
Click to expand...

Bridgestone have been doing business in Saudi for years, they were proudly posting about their 70 year relationship a couple of years ago.

As I said earlier in this thread I think a lot of companies are getting out of expensive contracts with these players just now as it's easy to do now that they are no longer on the PGA Tour. I wouldn't be surprised to see the deals redone in a years time at a much cheaper rate.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ok bad example as no research had be carried out at the time of posting, but the theory remains the same in principle.
		
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Yes there are plenty of individuals and businesses who are happy to engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			As I said earlier in this thread I think a lot of companies are getting out of expensive contracts with these players just now as it's easy to do now that they are no longer on the PGA Tour. I wouldn't be surprised to see the deals redone in a years time at a much cheaper rate.
		
Click to expand...

That makes sense.  Sign BDC as an example pre covid as the next best thing which has proven not to be the “brand” he sold himself as.  Now group that with global supply shortages in materials along with increased overheads such as energy costs to production and the cuts have to come from somewhere.

If they can renegotiate 12 months down the line using no Ryder Cup exposure, no DP/USGA Tour exposure, less events in general, they’ll resign him for a lot less.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Yes there are plenty of individuals and businesses who are happy to *engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing.*

Click to expand...

Like the LPGA and aramco?

Sorry, but these terms are getting boring.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Sorry, but these terms are getting boring.
		
Click to expand...

It's hardly my issue if you're bored by the truth. I'll continue to use them.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It's hardly my issue if you're bored by the truth. I'll continue to use them.
		
Click to expand...

I notice you only quoted the bit that suited? (Edited)

Out of interest, do you have that same view of golf monthly for accepting advertising revenue from LIV?  After all they engaged.

I think if you dig deep enough you’ll always find dirt.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So it seems in keep with slot of Luther big signings, Mr Stenson lost his long term sponsor A Mutual Of Omaha. Obvious he is not the first big signing to lose a sponsor, the most recent headline was DeShambles losing Bridgestone.

I’m curious as to the reasoning behind people losing sponsors because of the series.  Is it because they feel they will not get the value of their investment through less events and less air time or simply because the prefer to be represented on the main tours?

It’s quite strange as there are rumours adidas are trying to buy a team name for $1bil.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect there will be a number of reasons 

RBC for example removed BDC , DJ etc because by playing in a LIV they were unable to fullfil some contractual obligations by not being at the Canadian Open etc 

Some companies will just not want the negative publicity 

Some will be worried about losing exposure because of the lack of media rights etc

I don’t expect any would be removing the sponsership because of links to Saudi 

You can see many have lost sponsors and I guess that’s were the financial compensation comes into it from LIV



Oddsocks said:



			So with big brands walking away (example Bridgestone) is now the time for smaller brands like vice to sweep in and support this tour from early stages.  There seems a great opportunity for newer or less established brands
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s within the remit of those type of brands , they don’t seem to be companies that look for player sponsers etc and just use customer markets instead


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Out of interest, do you have that same view of golf monthly for accepting advertising revenue from LIV?  After all they engaged.

I think if you dig deep enough you’ll always find dirt.
		
Click to expand...

You're jumping to conclusions. I agree all money is tainted and I've said as much numerous times. I haven't said I oppose LIV. What I oppose is the lies and masquerades.

If, for example, one of the players simply said they're doing it for the money I'd have no issue with that at all.


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## Slab (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			You're jumping to conclusions. I agree all money is tainted and I've said as much numerous times. I haven't said I oppose LIV. What I oppose is the lies and masquerades.

*If, for example, one of the players simply said they're doing it for the money I'd have no issue with that at all*.
		
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We all know its for the money, if it was a charity gig we know none of them would've signed up... but in saying that I think its unlikely (even naive) for us to expect any player to *'only'* say they're just doing it for the money.
Even the most recent, Stenson said (amongst other reasons) it was a "commercial decision" for him... But as fun as it would be they're never going to go the full Harry Enfield when they sign up are they, they're not idiots


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			You're jumping to conclusions. I agree all money is tainted and I've said as much numerous times. I haven't said I oppose LIV. What I oppose is the lies and masquerades.

If, for example, one of the players simply said they're doing it for the money I'd have no issue with that at all.
		
Click to expand...

But you have failed to answer a direct and simple question.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			You're jumping to conclusions. I agree all money is tainted and I've said as much numerous times. I haven't said I oppose LIV. What I oppose is the lies and masquerades.

If, for example, one of the players simply said they're doing it for the money I'd have no issue with that at all.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. Take the Stenson statement. He used the words. Commercial decision. Others such as Bryson has said things like it’s a business decision. 

Why not be honest and just say they wanted the fat stacks?


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			But you have failed to answer a direct and simple.
		
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I have no issue with GM running their business on their terms.


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Agreed. Take the Stenson statement. He used the words. Commercial decision. Others such as Bryson has said things like it’s a business decision.

Why not be honest and just say they wanted the fat stacks?
		
Click to expand...

Isn't what they've said (business/commercial decision) just PR speak for exactly that though (fat stacks)?


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I have no issue with GM running their business on their terms.
		
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Surely if you have thoughts on the source of money, the ethics behind it and with companies and people that in your own words “ engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing “ then this is double standards and hypocrisy of the tallest order.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Agreed. Take the Stenson statement. He used the words. Commercial decision. Others such as Bryson has said things like it’s a business decision. 

Why not be honest and just say they wanted the fat stacks?
		
Click to expand...

They have said exactly that, just in a pc friendly manor.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Agreed. Take the Stenson statement. He used the words. Commercial decision. Others such as Bryson has said things like it’s a business decision.

Why not be honest and just say they wanted the fat stacks?
		
Click to expand...

If you were changing jobs now you could be doing it for lots of reasons.
Yes a wage increase but also
Less hours
Less commuting 
Not working Sundays
The opportunity to spend more time with the family.
So all in all a few reasons not just the money.


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## Beezerk (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			They have said exactly that, just in a pc friendly manor.
		
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I just can’t believe people are losing their  because some golfers haven’t said they are being greedy 😳


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I just can’t believe people are losing their  because some golfers haven’t said they are being greedy 😳
		
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Exactly.  They have said it in a professional manor as to remain credible and profession.

Henrick could hardly say “ I lost a bucket load of cash and this is my opportunity to recoup it “ even though that’s exactly what he has done.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I just can’t believe people are losing their  because some golfers haven’t said they are being greedy 😳
		
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Who is losing their ?

Can we not have a simple discussion now without resorting to this?

There is no credible reason for LiV golf to exist other than to try and improve the image of the Saudi Kingdom.

They have no interest in growing the game or any other such noble endeavours.

Greg Norman is only interested in sticking it to the PGAT.

The players are only interested in the money.

If they all came out and said this then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But when you read the press releases from the players that have been written by lawyers justifying their decisions, it reeks of embarrassment.

Call that losing my  if you want.

I’ve often wondered how people fall for scams and hand over their life savings. Having read some of the stuff from the people posting regularly in support of LiV. I can now understand why.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 22, 2022)

If LIV are interested in growing the game, why not get young players on board that the youth will associate with rather than players that are reaching their end of PGA/DPWT shelf life?

If players, particularly American ones, want less travelling why sign up to a tour which means they will have to travel to Asia to gain world ranking points?

Too many things don't add up about the motives for me.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Surely if you have thoughts on the source of money, the ethics behind it and with companies and people that in your own words “ engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing “ then this is double standards and hypocrisy of the tallest order.
		
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Interesting. Would you also think a barrister representing a murderer is a hypocrite?  The ability to look at and state facts does not align me for or against them and is not hypocrisy

I actually wrote "Yes there are plenty of individuals and businesses who are happy to engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing."

I might be one of them!


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## Dando (Jul 22, 2022)

it seems that some of our "favourite" golf influencers have are also backed by the Saudi's given that their PR company who own shares in their platforms is owned by LIV Golf


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



*Interesting. Would you also think a barrister representing a murderer is a hypocrite?*  The ability to look at and state facts does not align me for or against them and is not hypocrisy

I actually wrote "Yes there are plenty of individuals and businesses who are happy to engage in reputation laundering and sportwashing."

I might be one of them!
		
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In short, yes.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			it seems that some of our "favourite" golf influencers have are also backed by the Saudi's given that their PR company who own shares in their platforms is owned by LIV Golf
		
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This was brought up yesterday , it certainly explains the new found trend on “ breaking news” podcasts.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If LIV are interested in growing the game, why not get young players on board that the youth will associate with rather than players that are reaching their end of PGA/DPWT shelf life?

If players, particularly American ones, want less travelling why sign up to a tour which means they will have to travel to Asia to gain world ranking points?

Too many things don't add up about the motives for me.
		
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They’ve got a 15 year old on the player roster, they’ve signed Chacarra, they’ve got a 24 year old who came 11th at The Open……

Bryson has a strong youth following and is 28 years old. Hardly an old timer..

So to answer your question about signing young players up, they do.

Now if it turns out they’ve signed Smith up as well…..


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## pokerjoke (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Exactly.  They have said it in a professional manor as to remain credible and profession.

Henrick could hardly say “ I lost a bucket load of cash and this is my opportunity to recoup it “ even though that’s exactly what he has done.
		
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He lost 5 million many years ago,his nett worth is £25 million so he’s already recouped much more.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			He lost 5 million many years ago,his nett worth is £25 million so he’s already recouped much more.
		
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I was under the impression He’d lost more.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’ve got a 15 year old on the player roster, they’ve signed Chacarra, they’ve got a 24 year old who came 11th at The Open……

Bryson has a strong youth following and is 28 years old. Hardly an old timer..

So to answer your question about signing young players up, they do.

Now if it turns out they’ve signed Smith up as well…..
		
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Casey, Mickelson, Poulter, McDowell, Garcia, Westwood, Stenson, Kaymer, Bland, Howell III, seems like far more old farts than young bucks.  Still, Westwood rocks a hoodie so that will sway "da yoof".

And it was 2 questions, the second of which you've sidestepped; why if you want to travel less sign up to a tour that will make you fly further away?


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## GB72 (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Casey, Mickelson, Poulter, McDowell, Garcia, Westwood, Stenson, Kaymer, Bland, Howell III, seems like far more old farts than young bucks.  Still, Westwood rocks a hoodie so that will sway "da yoof".

And it was 2 questions, the second of which you've sidestepped; why if you want to travel less sign up to a tour that will make you fly further away?
		
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My guess, and it is only a guess, would be that they would look to dip into the Asia Tour when needed to top up the ranking points rather than have to play a regimented number of events on the PGA Tour. That would be a stop gap and if, and it is a big if, LIV get ranking points then that would stop.


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## rksquire (Jul 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			“Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport. Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.”

“Sport needs to evolve”.............

*And the ET were looking for a better partnership with the PGA tour and they got it and will continue to work that way*

Click to expand...

Did they?  I don't see it that way at all.  The supposed 'strengthening of the alliance' was simply the PGA Tour protecting their own interests by making sure the DPWT didn't start discussions with LIV.  The Barbasol and Barracuda was hardly a runaway success for the ET members.  The '10' cards is interesting (I'd like to see the fine print as others have pointed out), if it actually is for those that don't have PGAT card, great, but that annually devalues the DPWT as those guys will go and play the PGAT because of _money _and ranking points.  And then the same thing happens again the next year.  Although not a great course this year, having access to the Scottish Open is much more beneficial to the PGAT (Xander in particular!) members.

I will say this though, the novelty factor of LIV is starting to wear off.  I am absolutely not against it or what it's claiming it's trying to do for golf (I am of course against the human rights and sports washing, but I'm just as outraged with regard to F1, Boxing, Tennis, Newcastle  and the World Cup in Qatar... yet I've still more than a passing interest in all of these); the sums of money or the fact they've went for the money does not annoy me.  It's how the PGA Tour attract(ed?) the best players.  But, whilst I can see the merit of 54 holes and a shotgun start for 2 days, there's something to be said about drama to be played out and potential winners coming up the stretch playing the same holes.  If they do ever attract, say McIlroy (because this is what happened at the Open), crowds will flock to his group for all 18 holes.  Regardless of who else is there and what hole the winner is likely to be on - it'll be a bit flat.  Cantlay is not the stellar signing if it happens.  Smith is close, not sure he is the 'one', and I hope he delays any decision until he defends the Claret Jug rather just waiting to collect a bucket load of cash after the Fed Ex Cup before going to collect an even bigger bucket of cash.  Shuffler won't make a big difference despite his current standing.  2 or 3 of these guys together might do it, but McIlroy or Woods on their on would do it and that's not likely.  The teams, albeit not properly established, may catch on but there's a lot of work to do there to capture the imagination.  BDC is interesting, but not interesting enough; whilst I'd watch DJ all day long he's not enough on his own to make me tune in every day.  I do think the model is unsustainable and really if it wasn't for the anti-LIV sentiment, and the odd LIV promoted 'shock' announcement, interest would dissipate.  As I said, I'm not against it all, but my overall interest has waned.  

I actually don't think anyone from LIV, the PGAT or DPWT has handled it at all well.


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## Orikoru (Jul 22, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Bridgestone have been doing business in Saudi for years, they were proudly posting about their 70 year relationship a couple of years ago.

As I said earlier in this thread I think a lot of companies are getting out of expensive contracts with these players just now as it's easy to do now that they are no longer on the PGA Tour. I wouldn't be surprised to see the deals redone in a years time at a much cheaper rate.
		
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Agreed. I doubt they've pulled out over any moral standing. It will simply be because the contract mandates he must be seen on TV broadcasts using the Bridgestone ball, and since he won't be playing PGA events now, the amount of times he's on TV is drastically reduced.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

I wish there was more factual information available rather that click bait internet articles and multiple forum assumptions. I think it’s very fair to say that ever contributor to this thread has made a certain amount of assumptions (including myself) a lot of which are influenced by personal views.

Hopefully as this model evolves more transparency is available (excluding contracts).


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## Orikoru (Jul 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I just can’t believe people are losing their  because some golfers haven’t said they are being greedy 😳
		
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Yeah this is confusing me as well. "LIARS WHY WON'T THEY SAY THEY'VE MOVED FOR MORE MONEY" - well they said it was a business or commercial decision which means exactly the same thing. It's as if some people don't actually know what a euphemism is.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Did they?  I don't see it that way at all.  The supposed 'strengthening of the alliance' was simply the PGA Tour protecting their own interests by making sure the DPWT didn't start discussions with LIV.  The Barbasol and Barracuda was hardly a runaway success for the ET members.  The '10' cards is interesting (I'd like to see the fine print as others have pointed out), if it actually is for those that don't have PGAT card, great, but that annually devalues the DPWT as those guys will go and play the PGAT because of _money _and ranking points.  And then the same thing happens again the next year.  Although not a great course this year, having access to the Scottish Open is much more beneficial to the PGAT (Xander in particular!) members.

I will say this though, the novelty factor of LIV is starting to wear off.  I am absolutely not against it or what it's claiming it's trying to do for golf (I am of course against the human rights and sports washing, but I'm just as outraged with regard to F1, Boxing, Tennis, Newcastle  and the World Cup in Qatar... yet I've still more than a passing interest in all of these); the sums of money or the fact they've went for the money does not annoy me.  It's how the PGA Tour attract(ed?) the best players.  But, whilst I can see the merit of 54 holes and a shotgun start for 2 days, there's something to be said about drama to be played out and potential winners coming up the stretch playing the same holes.  If they do ever attract, say McIlroy (because this is what happened at the Open), crowds will flock to his group for all 18 holes.  Regardless of who else is there and what hole the winner is likely to be on - it'll be a bit flat.  Cantlay is not the stellar signing if it happens.  Smith is close, not sure he is the 'one', and I hope he delays any decision until he defends the Claret Jug rather just waiting to collect a bucket load of cash after the Fed Ex Cup before going to collect an even bigger bucket of cash.  Shuffler won't make a big difference despite his current standing.  2 or 3 of these guys together might do it, but McIlroy or Woods on their on would do it and that's not likely.  The teams, albeit not properly established, may catch on but there's a lot of work to do there to capture the imagination.  BDC is interesting, but not interesting enough; whilst I'd watch DJ all day long he's not enough on his own to make me tune in every day.  I do think the model is unsustainable and really if it wasn't for the anti-LIV sentiment, and the odd LIV promoted 'shock' announcement, interest would dissipate.  As I said, I'm not against it all, but my overall interest has waned.  

I actually don't think anyone from LIV, the PGAT or DPWT has handled it at all well.
		
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Love this post. 👏👏👏


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Casey, Mickelson, Poulter, McDowell, Garcia, Westwood, Stenson, Kaymer, Bland, Howell III, seems like far more old farts than young bucks.  Still, Westwood rocks a hoodie so that will sway "da yoof".

And it was 2 questions, the second of which you've sidestepped; why if you want to travel less sign up to a tour that will make you fly further away?
		
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I didn’t answer that question because quite frankly, it’s a ridiculous one. 

They already travel to play events on the PGA Tour, they are playing less 3 DAY events on LIV, and when they travel, LIV supply a private jet which looks like a flying nightclub. 

I’m sure they can cope with one trip to Thailand and one trip to Saudi this year.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If players, particularly American ones, want less travelling why sign up to a tour which means they will have to travel to Asia to gain world ranking points?
		
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and plenty of them.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If LIV are interested in growing the game, why not get young players on board that the youth will associate with rather than players that are reaching their end of PGA/DPWT shelf life?

If players, particularly American ones, want less travelling why sign up to a tour which means they will have to travel to Asia to gain world ranking points?

Too many things don't add up about the motives for me.
		
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I agree with this. I understand the signing of popular players but to grow the game I'm surprised they haven't gone for influencer type YouTube stars or even created a comp to win to play type situation (pro golfers obviously). 

It also wouldn't surprise me to see a pay x amount to play with Team Dollar etc.


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			I dont understand why professional golf needs another tour and especially one with a format that LIV are selling. Its not something that i'd be willing to pay to watch.

If the money wasnt so good there wouldn't be no discussion.
		
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It doesn't!
This is simply GN's resurrection of an anti PGA Tour circus that he proposed out of spite a long time ago. He couldn't find the funding then, but he has now, from a bunch of equally amoral folk who are simply using the circus to sportswash.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



*I wish there was more factual information available* rather that click bait internet articles and multiple forum assumptions. I think it’s very fair to say that ever contributor to this thread has made a certain amount of assumptions (including myself) a lot of which are influenced by personal views.

Hopefully as this model evolves more transparency is available (excluding contracts).
		
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There is, we've got Mel...


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I knew the forging was based in Japan, wasn’t aware if the full company was.  It’s interesting to see why some sponsors have run a mile and others have stayed committed.
		
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Bridgestone Golf is part of the Bridgestone massive conglomerate driven mainly by Tyres. It bought Firestone some time ago.
Golfing products are probably derived from, rubber based, ball production and consequent expansion into other golf related products, though it wouldn't surprise me if club production was a vanity project by a CEO. Their clubs are really good though and they are #1 ball producer in Japan. Likewise, they'd be very concerned that bad publicity could seriously damage their entire reputation, so it's likely a defensive move as much as anything.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I didn’t answer that question because quite frankly, it’s a ridiculous one.

They already travel to play events on the PGA Tour, they are playing less 3 DAY events on LIV, and when they travel, LIV supply a private jet which looks like a flying nightclub.

I’m sure they can cope with one trip to Thailand and one trip to Saudi this year.
		
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I thought they were also looking to play on the Asian Tour as well ? Is that not further travel away from home - Singapore , Korea China , Taiwan amongst others 🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Exactly.  They have said it in a professional manor as to remain credible and profession.

Henrick could hardly say “ I lost a bucket load of cash and this is my opportunity to recoup it “ even though that’s exactly what he has done.
		
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He apparently lost 8m of the 20+M he was worth a the time. Bucket load certainly, but he still had plenty.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

RRidges said:



			He apparently lost 8m of the 20+M he was worth a the time. Bucket load certainly, but he still had plenty.
		
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But if he is used to that nett worth, surely he will chase that wealth again whether he needs to or not?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I thought they were also looking to play on the Asian Tour as well ? Is that not further travel away from home - Singapore , Korea China , Taiwan amongst others 🤷‍♂️
		
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Phil. Here is a groundbreaking concept for you. 

Some will want to play pretty frequently, and increase their opportunities for OWGR points. They may well choose to play Asian Tour events.

Some, will want to spend more time at home, and can if they so choose

Come on, you know full well that some have made the comments about playing less, but it doesn’t mean that every single LIV golfer will want to do that. 
The thing is, you even know that’s the case but you can’t help yourself trying to pick holes in every comment I make, can you?


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## PieMan (Jul 22, 2022)

Still think the 'less golf, more time with family' arguments are pretty weak IMO.

Look at the Billy Horschel interview the other week at the Scottish Open (I think).

He said PGA Tour require a minimum of 15 events for membership. If you play those and make enough money to keep your card, you don't have to play any more.

15 weeks work, 37 weeks at home looks a good deal to me! 

And as BH also said, he sits down with his wife and family to plan his schedule - I would imagine every pro who is married with a family does so. Everyone knows when they'll be at home and when they won't.

Let's not forget that there are a fair few players on the LIV tour that were not making many weekends anyway! So could argue that with LIV they are playing more than what they were doing on the PGA!! 

Will be interesting to see what a lot of the US based players think about LIV further down the line when more events are added, especially as to 'grow the game' a significant number will need to be outside the US.

Unless of course the vast majority of the sports washing will be helped by Donald Trump and his US courses (11 according to Google!!)


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil. Here is a groundbreaking concept for you.

Some will want to play pretty frequently, and increase their opportunities for OWGR points. They may well choose to play Asian Tour events.

Some, will want to spend more time at home, and can if they so choose

Come on, you know full well that some have made the comments about playing less, but it doesn’t mean that every single LIV golfer will want to do that.
The thing is, you even know that’s the case but *you can’t help yourself trying to pick holes in every comment I make, can you?*

Click to expand...

Which equally applies to you picking holes with anyone whose comments have an issue with the LIV tour.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I didn’t answer that question because quite frankly, it’s a ridiculous one.

They already travel to play events on the PGA Tour, they are playing less 3 DAY events on LIV, and when they travel, LIV supply a private jet which looks like a flying nightclub.

I’m sure they can cope with one trip to Thailand and one trip to Saudi this year.
		
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Hmm




			Stunning new footage has emerged of the ‘absurd’ private jet being used to transport players on the Saudi-backed LIV Golf Tour.

The video, posted on the Tik Tok account of South African golfer Michael Farley, shows LIV players Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka and Pat Perez among others, enjoying the opulent surrounds of the luxury plane.

The focal point of the video is Perez, who is seen striding through the cabin with his arms outstretched singing ‘We Are the Champions’ by Queen.

Ironically, Perez shot a final round 80 as he finished 29th out of 48 players at the second LIV Golf event at Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club in Oregon last week.
Despite a sub-par individual performance, the 46-year-old still walked away with the tidy sum of USD $900,000 by virtue of being on the winning team alongside Johnson, Patrick Reed and Taylor Gooch
		
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What's not to like? 🙄


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## Dando (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			This was brought up yesterday , it certainly explains the new found trend on “ breaking news” podcasts.
		
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didn't see that.

i might contact the people involved and see if i can get blocked by them

i did hear that the camera shy paige spirinac may have been tempted my the saudi $. now if she's forced cover up her Pro V 36dd's then it'll be the biggest crime the world has ever witnessed


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

I’m 


Mel Smooth said:



			Phil. Here is a groundbreaking concept for you.

Some will want to play pretty frequently, and increase their opportunities for OWGR points. They may well choose to play Asian Tour events.

Some, will want to spend more time at home, and can if they so choose

Come on, you know full well that some have made the comments about playing less, but it doesn’t mean that every single LIV golfer will want to do that.
The thing is, you even know that’s the case but you can’t help yourself trying to pick holes in every comment I make, can you?
		
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This is all a bit confusing 🤷‍♂️

It was yesterday you were talking about the Asian Tour taking over the ET tour as the number 2 Tour in golf - because of the increase in the players from LiV , due to the increase in the funds and also the increase in the International series 🤷‍♂️

Yes some players have made someone comments - like Poulter , and then complained when he couldn’t play in the Scottish Open - maybe we shouldn’t take what the players say as gospel because many have said a number of things but then when dollars put in front of them they all seemed to have memory loss


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			didn't see that.

i might contact the people involved and see if i can get blocked by them

i did hear that the camera shy paige spirinac may have been tempted my the saudi $. now if she's forced cover up her Pro V 36dd's then it'll be the biggest crime the world has ever witnessed
		
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the Saudis don’t have enough money to cover them puppies!


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Who is losing their 💩?

Can we not have a simple discussion now without resorting to this?

There is no credible reason for LiV golf to exist other than to try and improve the image of the Saudi Kingdom.

They have no interest in growing the game or any other such noble endeavours.

Greg Norman is only interested in sticking it to the PGAT.

The players are only interested in the money.

If they all came out and said this then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But when you read the press releases from the players that have been written by lawyers justifying their decisions, it reeks of embarrassment.

Call that losing my 💩 if you want.

I’ve often wondered how people fall for scams and hand over their life savings. Having read some of the stuff from the people posting regularly in support of LiV. I can now understand why.
		
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I agree with this. The LIV Tour can set up whatever it likes, wherever it likes, and get to work sanitising the image of Saudi. Maybe they will set up a special event for Pride just to really challenge themselves and our prejudices about them. Trying to brand it as growing golf or fighting a monopoly and an injustice to poor millionaire golfers grates.

But IMHO Greg Norman is not interested in peace or co-operation, he wants to win over the PGA Tour and in doing so exorcise some of his personal issues which in reality are based in his reputation collapsing in majors. 

And the players knew 100% that going over risked their PGA Tour or DP World Tour membership and Ryder Cup eligibility. Going anyway and then whining about it afterwards is pretty infantile. 

If Stenson came out and said "Look, I am getting to the point where I am not really competitive any more. I won't qualify for the RC, being Captain isn't really commercial worth it, so I am going to grab the cash while I can, pay myself back for some of the money lost to Allen Stanford, and I accept I will get kicked out of the PGA Tour, and probably the DP World Tour, but that is a price I am prepared to pay", then I think we would say "OK, fair enough". 

A lot of us agreed that it made total sense for Richard Bland, and it makes some degree of sense for others too. But Bland isn't expecting to have it both ways.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Can someone educate me as to what is driving this grudge / grudges of GN? I see them referred to a lot but I’m oblivious to them.


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Can someone educate me as to what is driving this grudge / grudges of GN? I see them referred to a lot but I’m oblivious to them.
		
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Two aspects. 

Mostly the 1994 World Tour issue, linked to here.

An element of Greg Norman blaming others for his own failure to turn his ability into major wins.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Can someone educate me as to what is driving this grudge / grudges of GN? I see them referred to a lot but I’m oblivious to them.
		
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https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/g...o/news-story/f236e594f7fdc26851cb9c39f303fbf2


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## Dando (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Can someone educate me as to what is driving this grudge / grudges of GN? I see them referred to a lot but I’m oblivious to them.
		
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They banned him from using pink castle tees


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2022)

Funny piece in Golf Digest on LIV Golf.

Couple of gags:

Patrick Reed got $80 million to defect. LIV Golf paid $20 million and the PGA Tour the other $60 million.

LIV Golf plays 54 holes. Greg Norman didn't like playing on Sundays much either.


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## BrianM (Jul 22, 2022)

I can’t believe the angle people are wanting them to say they are moving for more money, business decision is the correct terminology, surely no one thinks otherwise 🙈
I’d never say to my employer I’m moving companies because I’m getting 20k a year more, you’d say it’s a business decision……


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			But if he is used to that nett worth, surely he will chase that wealth again whether he needs to or not?
		
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And he's back to 25M now. But LIV earnings will make a health pension fund.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Dando said:



			They banned him from using pink castle tees
		
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Bar-stewards! I back his motive!


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I thought they were also looking to play on the Asian Tour as well ? Is that not further travel away from home - Singapore , Korea China , Taiwan amongst others 🤷‍♂️
		
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That's only a fallback/necessity if/when LIV fails to get OWGR points, though that failure seems very likely to me. Mind you, the sign-on fee and prize money, if real payments to the players, would likely provide enough to survive on the 8 or so events in any year.


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’ve got a 15 year old on the player roster,…..
		
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Is that Chantananuwat, the same one you earlier claimed had been dropped? You can't use the same player for 2 diametrically opposed arguments!


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			I agree with this. I understand the signing of popular players but to grow the game I'm surprised they haven't gone for influencer type YouTube stars or even created a comp to win to play type situation (pro golfers obviously).

It also wouldn't surprise me to see a pay x amount to play with Team Dollar etc.
		
Click to expand...

You need to realise that the entire concept is NOT to grow the game, but to bring down the PGA Tour!


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## The Lion (Jul 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which equally applies to you picking holes with anyone whose comments have an issue with the LIV tour.
		
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Well said Blue 👏 

Now…@Mel Smooth you and other pathetic murder regime apologists really are INFURIATING me! 😤 

I’m LGBT 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️ 

The revolting Saudis literally KILL people like me, yet you guys continually justify this utterly abhorrent travesty, whose very existence is about cleansing their reputations so the Saudis can carry on massacring people! 

LIV Golf is literally EVERYTHING that is wrong with this world.

✅ Financed by one of THE most evil regimes on Earth 
✅ No business case or ROI whatsoever
✅ Anti-competitive by any metric 
✅ Financed entirely by corrupted dirty money
✅ Climate change & environmental degradation on steroids 
✅ Sportwashing straight up
✅ Deliberate attempt to take over an entire sport to launder reputations
✅ A haven for golf’s most arrogant, obnoxious, filthy rich elites 
✅ Enriching the greediest who only want MORE while the rest of us struggle! 

Anyone defending it should be ashamed. Utterly ashamed. 

You defile our sport, trash its honour and reverse all our hard won progress of decades 😡 

So please THINK and realise the harm you are causing. THINK!


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

@The Lion  , everyone has their own opinion and views whether you agree with them or not. This is clearly a thread that’s dividing the forum quite significantly.

personally, I think this thread should be locked!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



@The Lion  , everyone has their own opinion and views whether you agree with them or not. This is clearly a thread that’s dividing the forum quite significantly.

personally, I think this thread should be locked!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry have to disagree on the last part 

It’s the most talked about thing within golf right now and if you can’t talk about it on here then it’s not a golf forum 

It will divide opinion - that’s because it’s contraversial and we should be free to discuss it all and give opinions providing it’s respectful


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Is it not a fair statement to say that there has been a lot of disrespect within the discussion?


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## Backsticks (Jul 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry have to disagree on the last part

It’s the most talked about thing within golf right now and if you can’t talk about it on here then it’s not a golf forum

It will divide opinion - that’s because it’s contraversial and we should be free to discuss it all and give opinions providing it’s respectful
		
Click to expand...

Have to disagree on the last part. I dont really think it is dividing opinion. Or, if its dividing it, its more of a 99:1 split. The 1 being likely shills, trolls, or just contrarians.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Is it not a fair statement to say that there has been a lot of disrespect within the discussion?
		
Click to expand...

If there is then remove that - don’t just close down a whole subject because of it.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 22, 2022)

It gives the football fans something to argue over  during the off season....


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If there is then remove that - don’t just close down a whole subject because of it.
		
Click to expand...

I’m sure the mods have plenty of free time to police this thread……


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## Oddsocks (Jul 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Have to disagree on the last part. I dont really think it is dividing opinion. Or, if its dividing it, its more of a 99:1 split. The 1 being likely shills, trolls, or just contrarians.
		
Click to expand...

Is that statement nothing more than throwing fuel in the fire?

I’m definitely not trolling, far from a contrarian but have my own opinion and views. Because they don’t align with yours does that make them wrong?


----------



## TheBigDraw (Jul 22, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Yep, it's human nature, they will follow the money.

If the 3 month ban that is rumoured is the actual punishment loads more will want to play in the events after the Open since most of the big names take a 3 month break away over the winter months.

Also, thanks for the Honma TW-X review on YouTube, your review is what convinced me to give them a go. 

Click to expand...

Sorry only just seen this, Glad you liked the Honma Golf Balls


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## Backsticks (Jul 22, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Is that statement nothing more than throwing fuel in the fire?

I’m definitely not trolling, far from a contrarian but have my own opinion and views. Because they don’t align with yours does that make them wrong?
		
Click to expand...


Has anyone seen any independent, disinterested, informed commentators on golf, propone this venture as being good for golf in general, and for followers of elite golf as entertainment ?


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## IainP (Jul 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Has anyone seen any independent, disinterested, informed commentators on golf, propone this venture as being good for golf in general, and for followers of elite golf as entertainment ?
		
Click to expand...

Probably doesn't meet the brief but ....

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/why-i-cant-decide-whether-liv-golf-is-good-or-bad-for-the-game


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## timd77 (Jul 22, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I can’t believe the angle people are wanting them to say they are moving for more money, business decision is the correct terminology, surely no one thinks otherwise 🙈
I’d never say to my employer I’m moving companies because I’m getting 20k a year more, you’d say it’s a business decision……
		
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Because it’s patronising and treating us like idiots. Everyone knows they’re being paid a boatload of money to defect, we already know that the ‘spend more time with family’ is BS because they only have to play 15 PGAT comps a year, we know they’re not going for the string field because it’s a much weaker field. So just tell the truth. People would have much more respect for that.

The reason they don’t is because of where the money is coming from, so they’re cowards as well as money grabbers.

As for the last point, I’ve left jobs for money and given that as the reason for leaving, and I’ve accepted resignations from people for the same reason. I’m pretty sure most people would say it’s for more money if it was, partly to stick it up them if nothing else!


----------



## PieMan (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apologies upfront for the swearing from Poults.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550544533758570496

Click to expand...

Great - another reason not to watch the coverage!

"A future hall of famer"........


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## RRidges (Jul 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apologies upfront for the swearing from Poults.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550544533758570496

Click to expand...

I think it's time you paid advertising rates for such blatant advertising/propaganda!


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## BrianM (Jul 23, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Because it’s patronising and treating us like idiots. Everyone knows they’re being paid a boatload of money to defect, we already know that the ‘spend more time with family’ is BS because they only have to play 15 PGAT comps a year, we know they’re not going for the string field because it’s a much weaker field. So just tell the truth. People would have much more respect for that.

The reason they don’t is because of where the money is coming from, so they’re cowards as well as money grabbers.

As for the last point, I’ve left jobs for money and given that as the reason for leaving, and I’ve accepted resignations from people for the same reason. I’m pretty sure most people would say it’s for more money if it was, partly to stick it up them if nothing else!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe in your line of work, but certainly not in mine!!
It’s completely unprofessional in my opinion.


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## RRidges (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Maybe in your line of work, but certainly not in mine!!
It’s completely unprofessional in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies for the bluntness, But, given that you provide sufficient notice, or the opportunity to match a hard offer, staying somewhere that undervalues your worth makes you a mug imo.
Unless there are other considerations/benefits involved.
Why would you not consider moving to a company, doing the same work for more, and guaranteed, money in half the time than your existing place is offering?


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## IainP (Jul 23, 2022)

Stumbled across this. Naturally very PR heavy, I think is from about a year ago so pre liv (going public), but covers the golf tourism aims mentioned previously (just how big is the golf tourism market?). Looks like at least 7 years to go.... 😐

https://andaluciagolf.com/en/news/i...r-ceo-of-saudi-golf-federation-and-golf-saudi


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## BrianM (Jul 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Apologies for the bluntness, But, given that you provide sufficient notice, or the opportunity to match a hard offer, staying somewhere that undervalues your worth makes you a mug imo.
Unless there are other considerations/benefits involved.
Why would you not consider moving to a company, doing the same work for more, and guaranteed, money in half the time than your existing place is offering?
		
Click to expand...

I agree completely, my point was the terminology used by the players leaving is correct, you don’t just come out and say I’m leaving for the money.


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## IainP (Jul 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			You need to realise that the entire concept is NOT to grow the game, but to bring down the PGA Tour!
		
Click to expand...

Bring down can have a few interpretations, what were you meaning? 
Whilst the plan seems to be only 48 players, and I've not seen anything (yet) contrary, then personally I feel the PGA Tour is still in a strong position. More young & competitive players will potentially gain opportunities from the Korn Ferry & DP World feeders. As others have said, can see GN taking some pleasure in trying to devalue the PGA Tour a little, but as Monahan said they need the other tours.
Probably they'll be a report out at some point, golf generally has heavily been in the media of late - in some weird way maybe the attention benefits them also


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I can’t believe the angle people are wanting them to say they are moving for more money, business decision is the correct terminology, surely no one thinks otherwise 🙈
I’d never say to my employer I’m moving companies because I’m getting 20k a year more, you’d say it’s a business decision……
		
Click to expand...

Why do you care what your ex boss thinks? 

People taking tens or hundreds of millions yet hiding behind the width of a single dollar note is hilarious.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 23, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Is it not a fair statement to say that there has been a lot of disrespect within the discussion?
		
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I agree. Supporting LIV when its financial benefactor beats, murders and stones homosexuals and women is very disrespectful.


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## BrianM (Jul 23, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Why do you care what your ex boss thinks?

I don’t care, but like to remain professional throughout, it’s done me well this far 😀

People taking tens or hundreds of millions yet hiding behind the width of a single dollar note is hilarious.
		
Click to expand...

What’s hilarious about it?


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## howbow88 (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Maybe in your line of work, but certainly not in mine!!
It’s completely unprofessional in my opinion.
		
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What?! Incredible stuff, even by this thread's standards.


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## BrianM (Jul 23, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			What?! Incredible stuff, even by this thread's standards.
		
Click to expand...

I think you’ve missed half the conversations 😂😂


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## howbow88 (Jul 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			Stumbled across this. Naturally very PR heavy, I think is from about a year ago so pre liv (going public), but covers the golf tourism aims mentioned previously (just how big is the golf tourism market?). Looks like at least 7 years to go.... 😐

https://andaluciagolf.com/en/news/i...r-ceo-of-saudi-golf-federation-and-golf-saudi

Click to expand...

'We want to bring golf to Saudi citizens'  Surely nobody in the entire world is gullible enough to believe this complete trash?


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## BrianM (Jul 23, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			'We want to bring golf to Saudi citizens'  Surely nobody in the entire world is gullible enough to believe this complete trash?
		
Click to expand...

What’s your experience of Saudi Arabia to say that?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 23, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			'We want to bring golf to Saudi citizens'  Surely nobody in the entire world is gullible enough to believe this complete trash?
		
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Well Jack Nicklaus is.

Are people completely dismissing the notion that the Saudis, are trying to build an economy for the country post oil?


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## howbow88 (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What’s your experience of Saudi Arabia to say that?
		
Click to expand...

Valid point that. I've never met the King of Saudi Arabia, so how could I possibly say his country's mouthpiece is spouting nonsense.



Mel Smooth said:



			Well Jack Nicklaus is.

Are people completely dismissing the notion that the Saudis, are trying to build an economy for the country post oil?
		
Click to expand...

Jack Nicklaus also backs a fairly disgusting human being that used to be the President. I can respect his golf career, but I'm not so sure on his political opinions. 

Yes, they are definitely trying to build an economy for after oil. I've posted this about 5 or 6 times in this thread. That doesn't stop the country being a fairly awful place to live if you happen to be the 'wrong' sort of person in the eyes of the rulers. 

They are not interested in 'growing the game' or 'bringing golf to every Saudi citizen.'


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## timd77 (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Maybe in your line of work, but certainly not in mine!!
It’s completely unprofessional in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

You say unprofessional, I say being truthful.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What’s hilarious about it?
		
Click to expand...

It's like dancing round a fire and pretending it's not the reason you're warm.


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## Backsticks (Jul 23, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			'We want to bring golf to Saudi citizens' 

Click to expand...

And they couldnt think of a better way to bring golf to Saudi than giving hundreds of millions to Phil and DJ ! 
No. Nor can I. Giving it to multimillionaire Americans is the best way to get the average Saudi out for a round. No question.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 23, 2022)

I guess it takes away  from the billions they spend on arms from us and who knows what they do with those.


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## Marshy77 (Jul 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			You need to realise that the entire concept is NOT to grow the game, but to bring down the PGA Tour!
		
Click to expand...

I do realise that. I also realise the reason the players go to LIV isn't to grow the game or to have more time off.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 23, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Still groundhog day in here.....
		
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So it continues....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 23, 2022)

saving_par said:



			So it continues....
		
Click to expand...

yes you do indeed continue to add nothing but to complain about what others are posting 🙄 if the thread is that offensive to you why bother reading it or indeed posting in it 🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I agree completely, my point was the terminology used by the players leaving is correct, you don’t just come out and say I’m leaving for the money.
		
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Why not? If that's the reason, then it would be bordering on dishonesty to describe it as anything else!
I've certainly stated that as the reason I've moved on where it's been the case!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yes you do indeed continue to add nothing but to complain about what others are posting 🙄 if the thread is that offensive to you why bother reading it or indeed posting in it 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 23, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I agree completely, my point was the terminology used by the players leaving is correct, *you don’t just come out and say I’m leaving for the money.*

Click to expand...

If that’s the reason why wouldn’t you just say it 

It seems simple enough -

“I’m going to the LIV tour because I’m being offered a guaranteed £xmils and have the opportunity to earn more money in a handful of events than I have done in my career to date”


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yes you do indeed continue to add nothing but to complain about what others are posting 🙄 if the thread is that offensive to you why bother reading it or indeed posting in it 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Oi it’s not your place to tell anyone what they can and can’t post.

Got a problem with a members posts? Then report it and let the Mods deal with it 👍


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## RRidges (Jul 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			Bring down can have a few interpretations, what were you meaning?
Whilst the plan seems to be only 48 players, and I've not seen anything (yet) contrary, then personally I feel the PGA Tour is still in a strong position. More young & competitive players will potentially gain opportunities from the Korn Ferry & DP World feeders. As others have said, can see GN taking some pleasure in trying to devalue the PGA Tour a little, but as Monahan said they need the other tours.
Probably they'll be a report out at some point, golf generally has heavily been in the media of late - in some weird way maybe the attention benefits them also
		
Click to expand...

I can't read GN's mind so I have little idea. But it's a grudge he's had for something like 35 years, since his previous, failed, attempt to implement the circus failed. And there's likely funding provided for 3 or more years, so it's likely here to stay for some time.
To me, getting OWGR points is key to its survival and 'buying' the Asian Tour was a smart move even though it negates/shows the hypocrisy one of the major excuses for participation.


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## Backsticks (Jul 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			Probably doesn't meet the brief but ....

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/why-i-cant-decide-whether-liv-golf-is-good-or-bad-for-the-game

Click to expand...

Thanks. A journalist trying to consider the matter objectively, ends up undecided. If there really were a case to be made, there would surely be some disinterested parties on the record supporting it. I haven't come across any. If there aren't at least some, it does suggest that it has nothing to recommend it.
If the only significant voices making the case for it are those pocketing the cash, it is very damning.


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## 4LEX (Jul 23, 2022)

I think the Saudi's would do well to bin off Greg Norman. He's in it for himself and to cause as much carnage as he can. He's damaging the image and brand.


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## Backsticks (Jul 23, 2022)

But so are they. That's why it is a good fit. As per my comment that there seems no disinterested proponent of LIV, anyone in his role will seem to be the bad guy. Because the venture is indefensible, without a cogent justification, and laden with peripheral landmines. That's why GN was a great choice. He is oblivious, or prepared to defend the LIV case in a sort of alternative facts / fake news type manner.


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## Backsticks (Jul 23, 2022)

I would guess that their biggest miscalculation was in the ease with which they thought they would be able to pull the wool over the world's eyes. A bit like Putin. And a bit like Ukraine and the wider world, the PGAT and the golf world, has dug in against it, with an uneasy conflict and no winner or compromise way out, in sight.


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## IainP (Jul 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thanks. A journalist trying to consider the matter objectively, ends up undecided. If there really were a case to be made, there would surely be some disinterested parties on the record supporting it. I haven't come across any. If there aren't at least some, it does suggest that it has nothing to recommend it.
If the only significant voices making the case for it are those pocketing the cash, it is very damning.
		
Click to expand...

This likely backs up your view...
https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/ph...o-liv-golf-from-a-rwandan-gorilla-refuge.html
😅


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			This likely backs up your view...
https://awfulannouncing.com/golf/ph...o-liv-golf-from-a-rwandan-gorilla-refuge.html
😅
		
Click to expand...

What on gods earth is that about ?!?

An announcement just for Feherty and Mickleson with Gorillas?! 

That’s just incredible


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## RRidges (Jul 24, 2022)

I've a proposal for a different team/franchise
*B*ryson with *U*ihlein, *R*eed and *P*erez.
Obvious target for food chain sponsors


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 24, 2022)

Well, LIV is bringing in some interesting characters. Do they have a TV contract yet? I know one can get the tournaments online so I guess I'll give it a look. I really only care about the majors and the other big tournaments like The Players, The Arnold Palmer, The Memorial and our local Wells Fargo. However, I usually watch most events on Sunday. If LIV is here to stay I hope they go to 72 hole events. Otherwise it's going to be like the USFL or Arena Football. I think both of those "alternate" leagues struggle to get fans, but I could be wrong. I'll miss some of the guys who have left the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour, but not that many. I wonder how many of them will wish they could play on the Champions Tour when they can no longer compete with the young guys.


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## Slab (Jul 24, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			Well, LIV is bringing in some interesting characters. Do they have a TV contract yet? I know one can get the tournaments online so I guess I'll give it a look. I really only care about the majors and the other big tournaments like The Players, The Arnold Palmer, The Memorial and our local Wells Fargo. However, I usually watch most events on Sunday. If LIV is here to stay I hope they go to 72 hole events. Otherwise it's going to be like the USFL or Arena Football. I think both of those "alternate" leagues struggle to get fans, but I could be wrong. I'll miss some of the guys who have left the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour, but not that many. I wonder how many of them will wish they could play on the Champions Tour when they can no longer compete with the young guys.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point on senior tours but thinking on, I don't recall any lifetime bans being issued from pgat or ET 
So (assuming that a player has already done enough to qualify for the seniors) and when they've finished playing the liv, I wonder what would stop them from joining the senior tour?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 24, 2022)

Worth noting that one of the things I liked about Liv was finishing on a sat so you could see last day Liv then last day PGA next day 

From this event it's all Friday - Sunday tournaments


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 24, 2022)

Trump wants a 2023 Liv UK tournament at Turnberry.

Thoughts?

1. Course of that stature adds gravitas? 

2. Doesn't do anything to help its cause of getting back on the Open rota?


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## PieMan (Jul 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Trump wants a 2023 Liv UK tournament at Turnberry.

Thoughts?

1. Course of that stature adds gravitas?

2. Doesn't do anything to help its cause of getting back on the Open rota?
		
Click to expand...

It will be the best course a LIV tournament will ever be held on. But yes it will probably mean The Ailsa will never host an Open for the foreseeable future.


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 24, 2022)

Slab said:



			Interesting point on senior tours but thinking on, I don't recall any lifetime bans being issued from pgat or ET
So (assuming that a player has already done enough to qualify for the seniors) and when they've finished playing the liv, I wonder what would stop them from joining the senior tour?
		
Click to expand...

I think the Champions Tour is governed by the PGA Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Turnberry would be a great venue, and it won't be getting picked for The Open anytime soon anyway, so using it as a LIV venue would make perfect sense.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

It’s not a surprise that Trump would offer up Turnberry as an event , it certainly won’t host The Open anytime soon . Wonder what time of the year they would look at


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Trump wants a 2023 Liv UK tournament at Turnberry.

Thoughts?

1. Course of that stature adds gravitas?

2. Doesn't do anything to help its cause of getting back on the Open rota?
		
Click to expand...

1. Yes

2. It isn't getting the Open whilst Trump owns it so there is nothing to lose. If anything I think it's a smart move for Turnberry, it puts it back in the mind of golfers around the world who are not seeing it on the rota and so is drifting from the memory.


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## Slab (Jul 24, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I think the Champions Tour is governed by the PGA Tour.
		
Click to expand...

I think so too... But have players received a *lifetime* ban from the pgat ? 
If not what's to stop them playing the senior tour when they no longer play the liv?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

Slab said:



			I think so too... But have players received a *lifetime* ban from the pgat ?
If not what's to stop them playing the senior tour when they no longer play the liv?
		
Click to expand...

They has bern no “bans” yet , just suspensions and mainly players relinquishing their tour membership


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## Slab (Jul 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They has bern no “bans” yet , just suspensions and mainly players relinquishing their tour membership
		
Click to expand...

So post their liv 'career' there's no known issue playing korn ferry or senior tour or even returning to the pgat if they can qualify 
If that is actually the case then they'd be mugs not to cash in on liv for 3 or 4 years


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## Hoganman1 (Jul 24, 2022)

Slab said:



			So post their liv 'career' there's no known issue playing korn ferry or senior tour or even returning to the pgat if they can qualify
If that is actually the case then they'd be mugs not to cash in on liv for 3 or 4 years
		
Click to expand...

I think all this is still to be decided. We don't know how the PGA Tour will react if a player decides to return or how the four majors are going to deal with LIV members as yet. As a golf fan I hate this is happening. We're  deeply divided politically here across the pond. Golf had a unifying effect until this happened. Now you're either pro-LIV or pro-PGA Tour. To quote the late Rodney King "can't we just all get along?"


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

Slab said:



			So post their liv 'career' there's no known issue playing korn ferry or senior tour or even returning to the pgat if they can qualify
If that is actually the case then they'd be mugs not to cash in on liv for 3 or 4 years
		
Click to expand...

Think this has some way to go yet , every chance that bans could come in when it’s all sorted


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## RRidges (Jul 24, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I think all this is still to be decided. We don't know how the PGA Tour will react if a player decides to return or how the four majors are going to deal with LIV members as yet. As a golf fan I hate this is happening. We're  deeply divided politically here across the pond. Golf had a unifying effect until this happened. Now you're either pro-LIV or pro-PGA Tour. To quote the late Rodney King "can't we just all get along?"
		
Click to expand...

Majors are independent and have their own eligibility criteria, much of it based on OWGR rankings. So maintaining access to that has to be one of LIV's targets.


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## Ethan (Jul 24, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I think all this is still to be decided. We don't know how the PGA Tour will react if a player decides to return or how the four majors are going to deal with LIV members as yet. As a golf fan I hate this is happening. We're  deeply divided politically here across the pond. Golf had a unifying effect until this happened. Now you're either pro-LIV or pro-PGA Tour. *To quote the late Rodney King "can't we just all get along?*"
		
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Perhaps, if that is peoples' objective, but there is a prevailing view that Greg Norman wants victory over the PGA Tour to exorcise some long standing resentments.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 24, 2022)

Slab said:



			So post their liv 'career' there's no known issue playing korn ferry or senior tour or even returning to the pgat if they can qualify 
If that is actually the case then they'd be mugs not to cash in on liv for 3 or 4 years
		
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Except if they have not earned World Ranking Ponts,  they will not qualify to play on those tours in 3 or 4 years time.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Perhaps, if that is peoples' objective, but there is a prevailing view that Greg Norman wants victory over the PGA Tour to exorcise some long standing resentments.
		
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Yet he reached out to them long before a ball was struck at Centurion, and they ignored him. They’ve gone down the path of confrontation rather than co-operation. We can argue until the cows come home about whether that was the right decision, but there are an increasing number of people now calling for some sort of dialogue to resolve the perceived ‘split’ in golf.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thanks. A journalist trying to consider the matter objectively, ends up undecided.
		
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He's fortunate that he ended up undecided rather than against LIV. If you're a journalist and you don't want your body parts to end up in several different carrier bags it's a good idea not to upset or annoy the Saudi regime.


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## Ethan (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yet he reached out to them long before a ball was struck at Centurion, and they ignored him. They’ve gone down the path of confrontation rather than co-operation. We can argue until the cows come home about whether that was the right decision, but there are an increasing number of people now calling for some sort of dialogue to resolve the perceived ‘split’ in golf.
		
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Norman has made quite a few rather childish and petulant comments. I don’t think many believe he has golf’s best interests at heart, just Greg’s. 

As for coming together, the massive purses at LIV events is untenable in the PGA Tour model, which also needs proportionate purses for Korn Ferry etc, and is even more out of whack with the DPWT. LIV would need to drastically reduce purses if these Tours ever want to merge. 

Personally I prefer the outcome where the LIV Tour loses in court, the OWGR do not recognise their events and some of the big names regret their move and want to come back. Leave it as a waiting room for players heading towards Champions Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Norman has made quite a few rather childish and petulant comments. I don’t think many believe he has golf’s best interests at heart, just Greg’s.

As for coming together, the massive purses at LIV events is untenable in the PGA Tour model, which also needs proportionate purses for Korn Ferry etc, and is even more out of whack with the DPWT. LIV would need to drastically reduce purses if these Tours ever want to merge.

Personally I prefer the outcome where the LIV Tour loses in court, the OWGR do not recognise their events and some of the big names regret their move and want to come back. Leave it as a waiting room for players heading towards Champions Tour.
		
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The tours will never merge - it wouldn't be in anybodies interest - although it would be funny watching everybody suddenly change their tune about "blood money", if it was being fed into the PGA coffers.

LIV is here to stay, whether you like it or not - if anything the reaction from the tours will only strengthen GN's resolve to make it work, and you will see expansion of the LIV operations over the next year or so.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The tours will never merge - it wouldn't be in anybodies interest - although it would be funny watching everybody suddenly change their tune about "blood money", if it was being fed into the PGA coffers.

LIV is here to stay, whether you like it or not - if anything the reaction from the tours will only strengthen GN's resolve to make it work, and you will see expansion of the LIV operations over the next year or so.
		
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But Mel
They said the same thing about the Roman Empire, nothing is permanent.

LIV will stay until such time as it becomes financially viable or until the funding runs out and it falls flat on its backside.

It’s going to be a race to see which happens first


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## Ethan (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The tours will never merge - it wouldn't be in anybodies interest - although it would be funny watching everybody suddenly change their tune about "blood money", if it was being fed into the PGA coffers.

LIV is here to stay, whether you like it or not - if anything the reaction from the tours will only strengthen GN's resolve to make it work, and you will see expansion of the LIV operations over the next year or so.
		
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It may be here to stay but it is not a foregone conclusion that it becomes competitive with the PGA Tour or that the feeding frenzy from players continues. The PGA Tour got a legal workout of their structure during Norman’s previous attack and I suspect they have a strong legal position. No legal obligation on OWGR to recognise either. LIV can set up their own ranking and try to persuade major events to recognise it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yet he reached out to them long before a ball was struck at Centurion, and they ignored him. They’ve gone down the path of confrontation rather than co-operation. We can argue until the cows come home about whether that was the right decision, but there are an increasing number of people now calling for some sort of dialogue to resolve the perceived ‘split’ in golf.
		
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How did he “reach out” ?

What was the conversation about - what did he want the PGA tour to do ?

Was it along the lines of “we are going to offer a number of players hundreds of millions to play on a new tour” please don’t stand in their way 

What is it Greg Norman wanted from the PGA tour ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How did he “reach out” ?

What was the conversation about - what did he want the PGA tour to do ?

Was it along the lines of “we are going to offer a number of players hundreds of millions to play on a new tour” please don’t stand in their way

What is it Greg Norman wanted from the PGA tour ?
		
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I don't know, but I'd imagine it was to find a way for the tours and LIV to work alongside each other - why else would he try to approach them? That has been his position all along (although it may well have changed now given the reaction from the tours).

The thing is, if you want to negotiate a deal, you have to sit at the table, and Monahon wasn't interested. Fine, that's his call for his organisation, but at this moment in time, I can't see how any of his actions have strengthened the PGA, tours position, other than the deal to strip all the best players away from the DPWT, but that's another debate.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It may be here to stay but it is not a foregone conclusion that it becomes competitive with the PGA Tour or that the feeding frenzy from players continues. The PGA Tour got a legal workout of their structure during Norman’s previous attack and I suspect they have a strong legal position. No legal obligation on OWGR to recognise either. LIV can set up their own ranking and try to persuade major events to recognise it.
		
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As LIV grows, and it will, Norman is a shrewd businessman, and as the players on the series commercial value inreases (not all of them obviously), then why would the majors not want those players at their events? Why would the USGA etc, not want the stars of LIV competing alongside and against the stars of the PGA tour - it actually adds to the interest - this thread and this forum is proof - even though most of you that comment are anti-LIV, you can't help but get involved in the debate. That interest directly translates into money from the event sponsors point of view, and money is what everybody wants so they can put on the best show possible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't know, but I'd imagine it was to find a way for the tours and LIV to work alongside each other - why else would he try to approach them? That has been his position all along (although it may well have changed now given the reaction from the tours).

The thing is, if you want to negotiate a deal, you have to sit at the table, and Monahon wasn't interested. Fine, that's his call for his organisation, but at this moment in time, I can't see how any of his actions have strengthened the PGA, tours position, other than the deal to strip all the best players away from the DPWT, but that's another debate.
		
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How can they work together when the models of both tours are so far apart 🤷‍♂️

When one tour is trying to take away the best players and put on events at the same time as the other tours events -

GN was creating a rival tour and using a bottomless pit of money. 

And the PGA tour wouldn’t be looking to “strengthen” - they would be looking to look after their own tour - and right now they have the ranking points , Ryder cup and majors in their corner - they also have the best players in the world bar the odd player. They are stronger


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## Backsticks (Jul 24, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			He's fortunate that he ended up undecided rather than against LIV. If you're a journalist and you don't want your body parts to end up in several different carrier bags it's a good idea not to upset or annoy the Saudi regime.
		
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Well that's maybe funny/macabre, but not really true. If golf commentators were seeing merit, from a pro golf angle, in the Saudi venture, there would be someone making the case for it. But there is not.
Someone would be supporting that golfers are underpaid. That 54 holes is a better format than 72. That LIV will spread the golfing gospel/quaran to new parts of the world. That this is the way to get lots of average Saudis into golf. That golf is a singles sports that needs to develop into a team one with franchises owned by sheik/oligarch/oilbaron/sportinvestmentvehiclebillionaires to really entertain the public. That the PGA Tour is an evil monopoly empire that needs to be toppled.
But NOBODY is supporting the case.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can they work together when the models of both tours are so far apart 🤷‍♂️

When one tour is trying to take away the best players and put on events at the same time as the other tours events -

GN was creating a rival tour and using a bottomless pit of money.

And the PGA tour wouldn’t be looking to “strengthen” - they would be looking to look after their own tour - and right now they have the ranking points , Ryder cup and majors in their corner - they also have the best players in the world bar the odd player. They are stronger
		
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The best players in the world will follow the money, it was ever thus. 

And was Norman trying to take away the best players? Most of the players have said they'd have been happy to still compete on the PGA Tour if allowed - obviously they'd attend less events, but something is better than nothing, right?
Greg Norman and/or LIV have said repeatedly that they wanted the series to co-exist with the tours, so if the players said they'd do it, and LIV said they can do it - what has stopped them?


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## Ethan (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As LIV grows, and it will, Norman is a shrewd businessman, and as the players on the series commercial value inreases (not all of them obviously), then why would the majors not want those players at their events? Why would the USGA etc, not want the stars of LIV competing alongside and against the stars of the PGA tour - it actually adds to the interest - this thread and this forum is proof - even though most of you that comment are anti-LIV, you can't help but get involved in the debate. That interest directly translates into money from the event sponsors point of view, and money is what everybody wants so they can put on the best show possible.
		
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The business models are currently incompatible. Charl Schwartzel took home more money for a glorified exhibition event over 54 holes at Centurion than the winners of any major or The Players. The last player took home a top 10 prize from a PGA Tour event. The PGA Tour can’t accommodate players who are paid tens of millions to join and loads of money to virtually unknown players for also ran places in small field events.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The best players in the world will follow the money, it was ever thus.

And was Norman trying to take away the best players? Most of the players have said they'd have been happy to still compete on the PGA Tour if allowed - obviously they'd attend less events, but something is better than nothing, right?
Greg Norman and/or LIV have said repeatedly that they wanted the series to co-exist with the tours, so if the players said they'd do it, and LIV said they can do it - what has stopped them?
		
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GN only wants to do what benefits the tour he is running - why on earth would the PGA even contemplate working with him

“Something is better than nothing” 🤦‍♂️

Can you really not see why the PGA tour wouldn’t work with him ? 

LIV tour is an invite only with huge appearances fees and prize money that is unsustainable without a bottomless pit of money backed by an oil state - money that PGA can’t compete with 

The PGA tour has a vast amount of sponsors they need to satisfy , do you really think they would say -“yeah sure you go away and play these lucrative events ( when PGA Tour events are happening) but it’s cool for you to pop back and play the rich events that we host as well - don’t worry the other players who haven’t been invited they won’t care about these players popping back when it suits them. 

Yes Norman is trying to take the best players - that’s why he is paying people hundreds of millions 

Can you really see no negative in a limited invite only tour ?


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## IainP (Jul 24, 2022)

Thread maybe going round some familiar circles.... here's something I recently learned - 
The US Open gave 10K 'prize money' to all those who missed the cut.
Perhaps an acknowledgement that not all players are millionaires and it costs a chunk just being there. What are the thoughts on that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			Thread maybe going round some familiar circles.... here's something I recently learned -
The US Open gave 10K 'prize money' to all those who missed the cut.
Perhaps an acknowledgement that not all players are millionaires and it costs a chunk just being there. What are the thoughts on that?
		
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Can’t see it being an issue providing it is sustainable

It’s fine to pay expenses etc and allow a living but maybe means tested in line with endorsements etc


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## IainP (Jul 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can’t see it being an issue providing it is sustainable

It’s fine to pay expenses etc and allow a living but maybe means tested in line with endorsements etc
		
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Yeah I wondered about means testing, but them probably chances of that becoming a bit messy.


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## Imurg (Jul 24, 2022)

I've got a feeling that those who miss the cut at all the Majors get something in the way of prize money and have for a while..
I could be making this up though...


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## IainP (Jul 24, 2022)

One thing about this whole debacle is I have become more aware of golf tour related things I hadn't really thought about  previously. Looking forward a few months (am sure the thread will be still going 😅), and prompted by Cam Smith saying he's planning on talking the claret jug down under and may play the Oz Open & Oz PGA. Seems the two defending champions (some were skipped due to covid) are both currently involved with LIV.
Both tournaments are co-sanctioned with DP World, which suggests (on current understanding) one of them could play. Guess nearer the time decisions will be made.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 24, 2022)

Won't quote any because their are too many but I agree to have a really long term future iLiv will need to become sustainable.

I think PIF are obviously willing to take a hit to get it up and running recruiting the top players whatever the cost. 

Annual Event Title Sponsorship & TV Rights will contribute to this but weirdly its the team concept that I think we all agree isn't working right now could be the answer by franchising out the teams with Adidas and Red Bull reportably willing to pay $1 billion per team. 

I think there are 12 teams so potentially 12 billion 😳 That's a lot of Lula... 

There is the possibility the model could become sustainable but as I have said in the past ITS not Greg Norman or Jay Monaghon who will decide all this it's the players that have the power in their hands. 
If all the top players stay on the PGA Tour I think LIV will ultimately fizzle out, if they start to drift across then the PGA Tour starts to have a problem. 

We won't really know how that looks till after the Fed Ex Tour Championship and then see who is announced for the Rich Harvest Farms Liv Event in Chicago on 16th September.

Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high. 

I fear until mid September this thread will just keep going round in circles as I don't think any major names will move (if they do) till they finish the current PGA Tour schedule and Tour Championship.


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## Backsticks (Jul 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.
		
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I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. LIV looks more like 100-0. I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Won't quote any because their are too many but I agree to have a really long term future iLiv will need to become sustainable.

I think PIF are obviously willing to take a hit to get it up and running recruiting the top players whatever the cost.

Annual Event Title Sponsorship & TV Rights will contribute to this but weirdly its the team concept that I think we all agree isn't working right now could be the answer by franchising out the teams with Adidas and Red Bull reportably willing to pay $1 billion per team.

I think there are 12 teams so potentially 12 billion 😳 That's a lot of Lula...

There is the possibility the model could become sustainable but as I have said in the past ITS not Greg Norman or Jay Monaghon who will decide all this it's the players that have the power in their hands.
If all the top players stay on the PGA Tour I think LIV will ultimately fizzle out, if they start to drift across then the PGA Tour starts to have a problem.

We won't really know how that looks till after the Fed Ex Tour Championship and then see who is announced for the Rich Harvest Farms Liv Event in Chicago on 16th September.

Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.

I fear until mid September this thread will just keep going round in circles as I don't think any major names will move (if they do) till they finish the current PGA Tour schedule and Tour Championship.
		
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Have seen the idea banded around about franchise and the idea that a manufacturer will pay £1bn for a “franchise” team - 

I just can’t see that working for a few reasons 

1. Who is going to pay £1bn for a “golf team” - within a sport which isn’t team orientated 

2. What do they actually get for £1bn - just the name ? Or do they get a bunch of players 

3. What if they get players they don’t want - can they get rid ?

4. Been talk of Srixon/Adidas buying one - would that mean the players would have to use the franchise equipment ?

5. Say in 3 years time how do the teams then draft in players 

It’s all workable within a team environment sport like cricket ( ipl ) but within golf 🤷‍♂️


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have seen the idea banded around about franchise and the idea that a manufacturer will pay £1bn for a “franchise” team - 

I just can’t see that working for a few reasons 

1. Who is going to pay £1bn for a “golf team” - within a sport which isn’t team orientated 

2. What do they actually get for £1bn - just the name ? Or do they get a bunch of players 

3. What if they get players they don’t want - can they get rid ?

4. Been talk of Srixon/Adidas buying one - would that mean the players would have to use the franchise equipment ?

5. Say in 3 years time how do the teams then draft in players 

It’s all workable within a team environment sport like cricket ( ipl ) but within golf 🤷‍♂️
		
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Hey I don't have all the answers.
Just the pointing out the possibility that the model could become sustainable if you have the top players TV rights could be huge.

I will repeat again its in the top players hands.
Go to Liv and it can then become sustainable as sponsors will pour in, big TV Rights will be sold, franchising teams could happen etc etc.

All the top players stay on PGA Tour then none of that happens to the degree needed to support it.


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## IainP (Jul 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. *LIV looks more like 100-0.* I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.
		
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Well I've met one! Last weekend in the club championship. Massively pro LIV. Took me back really, I wasn't up for a debate as was playing golf.
No idea on the % but think it must be higher than zero. I've fallen guilty of reading comments below articles  - have said before I was surprised how 'even' the 'sides' appeared state side. Million miles from scientific though!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. LIV looks more like 100-0. I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.
		
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Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.


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## Backsticks (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.
		
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Reputable media. Not the wild west of manipulatable comments below articles, twitter, facebook. Even the fact the LIV has made no case itself, for itself. It rolls out platitudes like 'growing the game' which are saved from being meaningless only by indicating to us how bereft of sound justification LIV is. And that is very damning.


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## RRidges (Jul 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.
		
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I wouldn't take heed of any statistics relating to Twitter or Facebook!
Spam accounts are a pretty standard tactic in information wars, even to the extent that the actual number are holding up Elon Musk's purchase of the Twitter.
It/they would seem an obvious medium for bombardment by pro-LIV spam accounts, so a penetration of 20-30% would seem very low!


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## HeftyHacker (Jul 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Reputable media. Not the wild west of manipulatable comments below articles, twitter, facebook. Even the fact the LIV has made no case itself, for itself. It rolls out platitudes like 'growing the game' which are saved from being meaningless only by indicating to us how bereft of sound justification LIV is. And that is very damning.
		
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I dunno, of my usual playing group which is made up of 27 to 33 year old the consensus is mainly pro LIV at the moment. Most other people I've discussed it with at golf don't really care either way.

Tbh I've said before, I quite like the shotgun start, I quite like 54 holes element and the day being done in 5hrs or so and I like the fact I can pop it on YouTube and watch on the go. I especially like the fact I can stop watching, then go back and continue where I left off. However, I accept that it won't always be like this once the offer of a TV deal comes along.

Maybe, as a relative newcomer to the sport, and not the most avid watcher of the professional game, I'm not as ingrained with the traditional format and tours as much but if the PGA tour suddenly announced a series where the top 50 were to have 10 events a year in the format the LIV has taken I'd think it was a pretty good idea.

The money thing I'm not bothered about and I do find the constant commentating on it during coverage rather vulgar. If you're going to pay them that much then fine, but it doesn't need to be mentioned every 30 seconds.

Edit. Still think the team element is daft.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I wouldn't take heed of any statistics relating to Twitter or Facebook!
Spam accounts are a pretty standard tactic in information wars, even to the extent that the actual number are holding up Elon Musk's purchase of the Twitter.
It/they would seem an obvious medium for bombardment by pro-LIV spam accounts, so a penetration of 20-30% would seem very low!
		
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Yes. I think any case of resorting to twitter or facebook for tge lack of mainstream media support is corroborative evidence that the thing smells. Moving in the world of climate change deniers, Trump won the election, and covid isnt real commentators for believers means the sane world has probably rejected it.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I dont think the analogy is correct..
		
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The analogy was how one will never convince the other as I mentioned in the post 👍


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## howbow88 (Jul 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Worth noting that one of the things I liked about Liv was finishing on a sat so you could see last day Liv then last day PGA next day 

From this event it's all Friday - Sunday tournaments
		
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Shock. It is a



PhilTheFragger said:



			But Mel
They said the same thing about the Roman Empire, nothing is permanent.

LIV will stay until such time as it becomes financially viable or until the funding runs out and it falls flat on its backside.

It’s going to be a race to see which happens first
		
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LIV doesn't have to be financially viable in itself at all. It just need to be an effective method of pumping out pro Saudi messages to the world. As long as the Saudis deem this to be effective, it will continue.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The analogy was how one will never convince the other as I mentioned in the post 👍
		
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Yes, and I agree. My point is that there isnt really an 'other' in the Saudi golf case. There isnt really a debate at all. Just spin from LIV, which no one is buying.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Shock. It is a

LIV doesn't have to be financially viable in itself at all. It just need to be an effective method of pumping out pro Saudi messages to the world. As long as the Saudis deem this to be effective, it will continue.
		
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So far, the rumpus has done little but raise the profile of Saudis issues and increased their ill repute. Backfire.


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## IainP (Jul 25, 2022)

Putting aside individual views on it, the next couple of months brings 3 stops in the USA. With the USA being so important in corporate golf, and spectating golf and with being more 'up against ' PGAT events -  I was thinking could I imagine any set of circumstances that would lead to the LIV gang chucking it all in and pulling out. 
I expect more protests, more comments in the media, perhaps if the spectator interest really crashed.
I think though probably it would rumble on regardless, to the potential 2023 announcements...


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## Jimaroid (Jul 25, 2022)

The few people I’ve spoken to who are pro Liv are consistent in their reason and that is they can watch it for free as they don’t want to pay for Sky. 

I can understand this because Sky is expensive. In the choice of no golf or free golf, of course people will watch. People are easily swayed towards “free stuff”

Free now pay later, it’s the drug dealer model. It’s depressing how well it pulls people in.


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah this is confusing me as well. "LIARS WHY WON'T THEY SAY THEY'VE MOVED FOR MORE MONEY" - well they said it was a business or commercial decision which means exactly the same thing. It's as if some people don't actually know what a euphemism is.
		
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Let's be clear, nobody here is freaking out over golfers making a commercial decision, or Kaymer who openly explained his rationale.

It's stuff like this from Patrick Reed which is so obviously insincere:

Patrick Reed on Twitter: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf and bringing even more entertainment to golf fans across the world. Can’t wait to tee it up in Portland! https://t.co/13XGV6jvaY" / Twitter


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 25, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Let's be clear, nobody here is freaking out over golfers making a commercial decision, or Kaymer who openly explained his rationale.

It's stuff like this from Patrick Reed which is so obviously insincere:

Patrick Reed on Twitter: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf and bringing even more entertainment to golf fans across the world. Can’t wait to tee it up in Portland! https://t.co/13XGV6jvaY" / Twitter

Click to expand...

exactly this. 

These golfers have zero interest in “growing the game”. It’s Judy a convenient one liner to skirt around the fact they don’t want to admit it’s really because they’ve accepted an incredible amount of money from the Saudi Government which will set them up for life (or moreso Than they were already setup)


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## Orikoru (Jul 25, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Let's be clear, nobody here is freaking out over golfers making a commercial decision, or Kaymer who openly explained his rationale.

It's stuff like this from Patrick Reed which is so obviously insincere:

Patrick Reed on Twitter: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf and bringing even more entertainment to golf fans across the world. Can’t wait to tee it up in Portland! https://t.co/13XGV6jvaY" / Twitter

Click to expand...

He definitely didn't write that himself.


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## PieMan (Jul 25, 2022)

It's amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten that LIV is all about a fair wage for the caddies............!!!


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

PieMan said:



			It's amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten that LIV is all about a fair wage for the caddies............!!! 

Click to expand...

Have the caddies moved from being independent contractors contracted to other independent contractors, to employees?


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve often wondered how people fall for scams and hand over their life savings. Having read some of the stuff from the people posting regularly in support of LiV. I can now understand why.
		
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This cracked me up 

Mel posts that Tiger is joining Liv and will be at Centurion on Friday handing out suitcases of cash. Just needs to repeat it a few times in different context, get one of the youtube accounts like bigdraw to endorse it, and bingo... how many regular posters will turn up? I'd be willing to go down to the club to film the bewildered posters arriving. I know who my money's on.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The best players in the world will follow the money, it was ever thus.

And was Norman trying to take away the best players? Most of the players have said they'd have been happy to still compete on the PGA Tour if allowed - obviously they'd attend less events, but something is better than nothing, right?
*Greg Norman and/or LIV have said repeatedly that they wanted the series to co-exist with the tours, so if the players said they'd do it, and LIV said they can do it - what has stopped them?*

Click to expand...

I quite enjoy the LIV stuff as you know Mel, but let’s be honest this was never going to happen.

Imagine leaving your current employer - “ sorry boss I’m leaving, I’ve been offered 10 times the salary you’re offering and I can’t knock it back although it is only part time so I’ll happily work for you on days I’m  or working for them “

I know what most of my ex bosses would have said.

There were a few ways it could have worked if people sat around a table a few years before and structured a non conflicting tour but as you say the main tours wasn’t prepared to which left Norman no option but to go maverick and now the brown stuff has hit the fan.

Premier events every other month where key players have qualified based on OWRP or series standings , half the prize money paid and the other half pumped into to tours which needed support (ie lpga).

Effectively “ can we borrow key players from xyz tours and we will ensure no conflicting events yada yada yada “

It’s past that point …. A long way past that point.


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.
		
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One was based on dodgy foreign money being spent to persuade gullible people they were buying a great new future with warm words of making things better, liberating people from restrictive rules, working together and co-operation when in fact it was really a self-serving strategy to exact revenge and there was no intention whatsoever to work together, and more rules were imposed than were there in the first place.

And so was the other. 

Funny enough, some people may be starting to regret their choices now.


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## PieMan (Jul 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Have the caddies moved from being independent contractors contracted to other independent contractors, to employees?
		
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No idea Ethan, but very early in this thread that was one of the positives about LIV - the caddies would get a decent wage!!!


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## BTatHome (Jul 25, 2022)

Aren't DP and PGA conflicting tours? They have events parallel to one another every single week. So why are they not viewed the same as LIV? Players enter events on both tours, and don't get banned, and the tours allow this to happen (even with Asian tour events too). The hostility towards LIV is very strange considering that the only thing that seems to get on peoples backs is the Saudi backing ... and yet we don't have issue with all the other Saudi influenced (or sourced) things that happen in the world. Selling weapons to Saudi, yeah thats OK ... buying oil from them, yeah no issue.

The conflict is because of the banning of players that wanted to play in "another" tours events (playing other events on other tours is not unheard of). Just get over it, if the players want more money then fine let them play events that give them that money. Not being in events on their main tour will give others lower players entry to those events they are missing (surely that's good too).


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

PieMan said:



			No idea Ethan, but very early in this thread that was one of the positives about LIV - the caddies would get a decent wage!!! 

Click to expand...

I know that, but it was completely contrary to the view, also expressed widely by supporters of LIV Golf, that players, and by extension caddies, were independent contractors. Independent contractors negotiate their pay with their contract holder, not with the event provider.


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Adidas and Red Bull reportably willing to pay $1 billion per team.
		
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"reportedly" = made up by Liv propaganda machine who then instruct you and their other social media stooges to spread the fake news.


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Aren't DP and PGA conflicting tours? They have events parallel to one another every single week. So why are they not viewed the same as LIV? Players enter events on both tours, and don't get banned, and the tours allow this to happen (even with Asian tour events too). The hostility towards LIV is very strange considering that the only thing that seems to get on peoples backs is the Saudi backing ... and yet we don't have issue with all the other Saudi influenced (or sourced) things that happen in the world. Selling weapons to Saudi, yeah thats OK ... buying oil from them, yeah no issue.

The conflict is because of the banning of players that wanted to play in "another" tours events (playing other events on other tours is not unheard of). Just get over it, if the players want more money then fine let them play events that give them that money. Not being in events on their main tour will give others lower players entry to those events they are missing (surely that's good too).
		
Click to expand...

The PGA Tour owns a part of the DP World Tour. The PGA Tour and Korn Ferry Tour have events opposite one another every week too.

PGA Tour players get membership under contractual conditions that they play certain numbers of events, get releases/waivers to play events on other Tours, play certain specific events every now and again, give certain image rights to the Tour and so on. In exchange they get access to PGA Tour events, contributions to a rather good pension and other benefits.

Playing for the LIV Tour is clearly a breach of those conditions.

Would you expect the Premier League to just say "Welcome" if another football league rocked up and started to recruit Harry Kane, Jack Grealish etc to teams?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Aren't DP and PGA conflicting tours? They have events parallel to one another every single week. So why are they not viewed the same as LIV? Players enter events on both tours, and don't get banned, and the tours allow this to happen (even with Asian tour events too). The hostility towards LIV is very strange considering that the only thing that seems to get on peoples backs is the Saudi backing ... and yet we don't have issue with all the other Saudi influenced (or sourced) things that happen in the world. Selling weapons to Saudi, yeah thats OK ... buying oil from them, yeah no issue.

The conflict is because of the banning of players that wanted to play in "another" tours events (playing other events on other tours is not unheard of). Just get over it, if the players want more money then fine let them play events that give them that money. Not being in events on their main tour will give others lower players entry to those events they are missing (surely that's good too).
		
Click to expand...

The ET and PGA tour are both official recognised tours with pathways for people to play on 

If someone wants to play on the PGA tour they are required to be a member - to be a member they need to fulfill criteria and qualify for events 

Same with the ET. It’s open to all to qualify - same with the Sunshine or Japan Tours 

They are all recognised by governing bodies etc 

The LIV doesn’t have a pathway , it’s an invite only event , not recognised and has no working relationship with any other tour - that may change but right now players don’t have the ability to qualify for the LIV tour , they can’t gain a card - it’s a closed shop 

People haven’t been “banned” from any tour as far as I’m aware as of yet.  Players have relinquished their tour membership 

it’s not far from the Super League that some teams tried to form - and we all remember the reaction to that


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## Depreston (Jul 25, 2022)

1 Billion dollars to buy the niblicks

Give over man


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## BTatHome (Jul 25, 2022)

Sounds to me, like nothing happens without PGA tour allowing it ... so there will never be any new tours unless they have control of them 🤷


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Sounds to me, like nothing happens without PGA tour allowing it ... so there will never be any new tours unless they have control of them 🤷
		
Click to expand...

The PGA tour have spend decades building up the sport - golf is a huge sport now because of a lot of the work they have done - do people really think they should just stand aside and let a rival tour with deep pockets take their prize assets ? 

As some said what would happen if the Saudis created a new Premier League or rugby league or new tennis majors etc 

LiV your can be created - the players can go and play on it - but why should they allow the players who have left to also play on their tour ?


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Sounds to me, like nothing happens without PGA tour allowing it ... so there will never be any new tours unless they have control of them 🤷
		
Click to expand...

If players have signed contracts giving the PGA Tour the right to determine their schedules and to limit their freedom to play on other Tours, then they shouldn't be surprised when the PGA Tour determines their schedules or limits their freedom to play on other Tours.


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## AussieKB (Jul 25, 2022)

Have just got home from a week's holiday, no internet at all.......
was wonderful not to read the same old crap being regurgitated.


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## JamesR (Jul 25, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Sounds to me, like nothing happens without PGA tour allowing it ... so there will never be any new tours unless they have control of them 🤷
		
Click to expand...

If a significant % of events played weren't in North America then the PGA tour wouldn't have had any say.
But the contracts prevent other tours hustling in on their territory.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The PGA tour have spend decades building up the sport - golf is a huge sport now because of a lot of the work they have done - do people really think they should just stand aside and let a rival tour with deep pockets take their prize assets ?

As some said what would happen if the Saudis created a new Premier League or rugby league or new tennis majors etc

LiV your can be created - the players can go and play on it - but why should they allow the players who have left to also play on their tour ?
		
Click to expand...

The PGA Tour have done a great job of monopolising and Americanising golf.

They got the golden egg with Tiger. 

But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.

Of course the PGA can ban players, but they have weakened their fields by doing it. Same applies to the Ryder Cup with the Stenson debacle.


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Have just got home from a week's holiday, no internet at all.......
was wonderful not to read the same old crap being regurgitated.
		
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So you didn't look at the forum on holiday, but now back at work you have to log on to read this thread. Do you work for golf monthly as a forum reviewer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The PGA Tour have done a great job of monopolising and Americanising golf.
		
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What other tours grabbed the initiative ? Got all the tour sponsership ? Helped create bigger events for these golfers ?

Why didn’t the other tours do it ? Maybe it’s because the market for golf was bigger in the US, it has the weather , the courses , the crowds , the Telly networks willing to pay a lot 

There was nothing stopping the ET getting sponsership and to increase their events - why didn’t they ? 

And how is golf “Americanised” 🤷‍♂️ That’s strange comment 




			They got the golden egg with Tiger.

But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.

Of course the PGA can ban players, but they have weakened their fields by doing it. Same applies to the Ryder Cup with the Stenson debacle.
		
Click to expand...

Is there really a “huge market” ?

where are most of the LIV events - the US 🤷‍♂️


The PGA haven’t “banned” anyone - 

And Stenson hasn’t been banned - he lost the captaincy because of his choice


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## Imurg (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.
		
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Arguable...but if players want to go and play LIV then they can...but..
Why should they expect to play on the PGA as well..?
The PGA are looking after their own interests, naturally, but also the interests of their members.
Having One's cake and being able to eat it is a rare commodity...


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The PGA Tour have done a great job of monopolising and Americanising golf.

They got the golden egg with Tiger.

But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.

Of course the PGA can ban players, but they have weakened their fields by doing it. Same applies to the Ryder Cup with the Stenson debacle.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, come off it. There is no huge market for past it and who's that players to be offered multiples of an average persons annual salary to finish 43rd in a shortened, no cut, event with teams. None of these differences improve the product or grow the game. They are simply branding differences. 

If you really must keep talking this up, at least be honest about it. This is a massive spend to grab headlines and eyeballs to sanitise the Saudi's image. There is no grander reason for it. LIV Tour doesn't give a toss about breaking monopoly (see OPEC) or reducing Americanism (They have set up the HQ in Palm Beach.).

Sportwashing, pure and simple and exploiting the greed of already wealthy mercenary golfers to do so.


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## pokerjoke (Jul 25, 2022)

The PGA tour is so weak now even Tony Finau is winning


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

A few have mentioned that the biggest issue that’s causing all the problems is Greg Norman himself 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551533068275646464


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## JamesR (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Arguable...but if players want to go and play LIV then they can...but..
Why should they expect to play on the PGA as well..?
The PGA are looking after their own interests, naturally, but also the interests of their members.
Having One's cake and being able to eat it is a rare commodity...
		
Click to expand...

The LIV boys want two cakes


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But there is a huge market for something different
		
Click to expand...

Something different, has to be at least as good, if not better. LIV 'different' shows that they couldn't even come up with genuine different. Without something better than the nonsense they have proposed, different is actually worse that what was there. And how is what was there bad actually ?  Where are the golf fans clamouring for something different before Saudi, with its rich history, sensitivity for, and deep culture in golf, came along to solve the 'problem'.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Sportwashing, pure and simple and exploiting the greed of already wealthy mercenary golfers to do so.
		
Click to expand...

I wonder what will it take for the Saudis to pull the money plug. There is no question but that this attemp has been appallingly handled by LIV. It has brought nothing but a negative focus on Saudi. They are the bad guys to world golf, and their bad guy human rights issues have been given a lot or air and probably also highlighted to a wider audience.
They are not pulling of any pro Saudi pr coup here. Far from it.
At some point the ultimate paymasters behind it will consider whether it is worth it.


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## Depreston (Jul 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I wonder what will it take for the Saudis to pull the money plug. There is no question but that this attemp has been appallingly handled by LIV. It has brought nothing but a negative focus on Saudi. They are the bad guys to world golf, and their bad guy human rights issues have been given a lot or air and probably also highlighted to a wider audience.
They are not pulling of any pro Saudi pr coup here. Far from it.
At some point the ultimate paymasters behind it will consider whether it is worth it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but it'll die down and they'll be at the table with sponsors soon enough... and then they're just another cog in the sporting world. job done.


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## sunshine (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.
		
Click to expand...

You're right, I think there is a market for something different (maybe not huge - it's hard to define).

Potentially targeting a younger audience, and an audience which is less golf savvy, is a good avenue. Golf today can be impenetrable with the complex rules and jargon. So a more immediate format may appeal.

But is this where Liv is aiming? Signing Bland, Na, Ormsby, Uhlein, etc indicate not.


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## IainP (Jul 25, 2022)

When golf joined the Olympics there were many voices saying  - not another 72 hole regular strokeplay singles event

Then again, don't recall any asking for 54 holes with dodgy team names either 😉


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## Beezerk (Jul 25, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Potentially targeting a younger audience, and an audience which is less golf savvy, is a good avenue. Golf today can be impenetrable with the complex rules and jargon. So a more immediate format may appeal.

But is this where Liv is aiming? Signing Bland, Na, Ormsby, Uhlein, etc indicate not.
		
Click to expand...

Do big names matter to a less golf savvy younger audience? How many will have heard of Koepka or even Morikawa never mind Bland and co? I’d say 99% of the worlds population could only name 3 or 4 golfers at a push, Tiger, Rory maybe Bryson, I’m struggling after that to find any real massive names.


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## RRidges (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.
		
Click to expand...

Is there really? Where's the market research that shows that?
The events so far have been very ho-hum, with surprisingly few visitors and loads of free tickets being used to attract spectators. The only buzz being the controversial nature of the concept.


Mel Smooth said:



			Same applies to the Ryder Cup with the Stenson debacle.
		
Click to expand...

His defection has probably been one of their major coups! I wonder how much it cost them!


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

RRidges said:



			His defection has probably been one of their major coups! I wonder how much it cost them!
		
Click to expand...

$40 mil was a number I saw bouncing around but like all things around LIV I am not sure if it was factual.


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## chrisd (Jul 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The PGA Tour have done a great job of monopolising and Americanising golf.



But there is a huge market for something different, which could and should be in addition to the other tours.
		
Click to expand...

Is there. Really ?


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## RRidges (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			$40 mil was a number I saw bouncing around but like all things around LIV I am not sure if it was factual.
		
Click to expand...

A good wedge, but I'd have valued him at least 50% more if those of others are to be believed.
Mind you, it might not be 'real' money anyway!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Do big names matter to a less golf savvy younger audience? How many will have heard of Koepka or even Morikawa never mind Bland and co? I’d say 99% of the worlds population could only name 3 or 4 golfers at a push, Tiger, Rory maybe Bryson, I’m struggling after that to find any real massive names.
		
Click to expand...

I guess it will come down to social media presence for a lot of the younger audience 

a lot of them follow the you tube pros and maybe people who are very active on social media - maybe the like of Poulter but I don’t know who else is active as such 

And after that it will be whoever the “headline” is - the likes of Woods , Rory will be known to many but not sure on others


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

RRidges said:



			A good wedge, but I'd have valued him at least 50% more if those of others are to be believed.
Mind you, it might not be 'real' money anyway!
		
Click to expand...

he’d be worth more for bragging rights hence me saying rumour, because a good portion of it seems to be.


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## JamesR (Jul 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			When golf joined the Olympics there were many voices saying  - not another 72 hole regular strokeplay singles event

Then again, don't recall any asking for 54 holes with dodgy team names either 😉
		
Click to expand...

For me that was an opportunity to try different things, with medals being up for grabs for one day events. These could even be team events, mixed, or individual.
Golf actually has loads of different competition options: 4BBB, Foursomes, Greensomes, Texas Scramble, individual etc


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

So here’s a thought.

Justin Rose is without a doubt a big name that LIV would love to steel and stick on their tour, and I notice from a GM post on faceache that he has launched a new comp on the ladies euro tour access series.

Now without knowing the in’s and out’s I would “assume” this is either as an ambassador for the promotion or some form of financial backing, but what would happen if he was to sign LIV?

Would the governing tour choose to block his support or like the LPGA and aramco would they continue as is…..


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## Depreston (Jul 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			When golf joined the Olympics there were many voices saying  - not another 72 hole regular strokeplay singles event

Then again, don't recall any asking for 54 holes with dodgy team names either 😉
		
Click to expand...

a perfect time for a bit team golf there


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So here’s a thought.

Justin Rose is without a doubt a big name that LIV would love to steel and stick on their tour, and I notice from a GM post on faceache that he has launched a new comp on the ladies euro tour access series.

Now without knowing the in’s and out’s I would “assume” this is either as an ambassador for the promotion or some form of financial backing, but what would happen if he was to sign LIV?

Would the governing tour choose to block his support or like the LPGA and aramco would they continue as is…..
		
Click to expand...

Justin Rose through lockdown and Covid started the JR series along with his wife 

Single day events all around England - West Lancs , Sunningdale, Brokenhurst , Walton Heath and Bearwood Lakes as a final  all though April ( think it was more last year ) 

They have now gone one step further and created the event at Brocket Hall - 

I don’t expect him to go anywhere near LIV


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Justin Rose through lockdown and Covid started the JR series along with his wife

Single day events all around England - West Lancs , Sunningdale, Brokenhurst , Walton Heath and Bearwood Lakes as a final  all though April ( think it was more last year )

They have now gone one step further and created the event at Brocket Hall -

I don’t expect him to go anywhere near LIV
		
Click to expand...

With the upmost respect Phil, you “not expecting it” isn’t the question I asked  

It was more a food for thought question.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 25, 2022)

I’ve seen on Twitter a suggestion that LiV might be looking to hold joint events  with the ladies. One lot playing in the morning and others the afternoon with shotgun starts.
This could be considered growing the game. Maybe even chuck in a mixed format on the Sunday.

It baffles me why they didn’t sponsor an event or two using this format or something similar to get a foot in the door. Then look at expansion.

Or would Greg Norman’s ego not stretch to that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			With the upmost respect Phil, you “not expecting it” isn’t the question I asked 

It was more a food for thought question.
		
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Rose is not it seems looking to go to LIV , not being any talk about him going etc , no rumours etc so 

But what would happen with the event if he went to LIV - I suspect nothing , I can’t see why it would change , the LET are part of the Aramco series


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rose is not it seems looking to go to LIV , not being any talk about him going etc , no rumours etc so

But what would happen with the event if he went to LIV - I suspect nothing , I can’t see why it would change , the LET are part of the Aramco series
		
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There were a few tight lipped secretes that only dropped a week before becoming official.  It’s fair to say rose isn’t the player he used to be so could potentially see it as a cash cow.

As BIM said above there are talks about LIV and womens events.

I’d be interested to see if rose defected would the relevant ladies tour/series reject his support as a defector, that’s the crunch question.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			There were a few tight lipped secretes that only dropped a week before becoming official.  It’s fair to say rose isn’t the player he used to be so could potentially see it as a cash cow.

As BIM said above there are talks about LIV and womens events.

I’d be interested to see if rose defected would the relevant ladies tour/series reject his support as a defector, that’s the crunch question.
		
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I don’t think they would reject him tbh - they need all the help and support and money they can get as the tours already struggle financially -


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think they would reject him tbh - they need all the help and support and money they can get as the tours already struggle financially -
		
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Which is where I find the hypocrisy a big bug bare for me.  They will and do accept Saudi money when it suits, they’d lose a high profile player but still use his support.

And so the circle of debate begins… all over again.

🍿


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 25, 2022)

[B]BiMGuy[/B] said:



			I’ve seen on Twitter a suggestion that LiV might be looking to hold joint events  with the ladies. One lot playing in the morning and others the afternoon with shotgun starts.
This could be considered growing the game. Maybe even chuck in a mixed format on the Sunday.

It baffles me why they didn’t sponsor an event or two using this format or something similar to get a foot in the door. Then look at expansion.

Or would Greg Norman’s ego not stretch to that.
		
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Oddsocks said:



			There were a few tight lipped secretes that only dropped a week before becoming official.  It’s fair to say rose isn’t the player he used to be so could potentially see it as a cash cow.

As* BIM *said above there are talks about LIV and womens events.

I’d be interested to see if rose defected would the relevant ladies tour/series reject his support as a defector, that’s the crunch question.
		
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No I didn't.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 25, 2022)

Given the way Rose speaks so genuinely about the Olympics and Ryder Cup I’d be extremely surprised and disappointed if he went to Liv.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			No I didn't.
		
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Sorry BiMguy. It gets confusing.

Can you change your name please. 😉


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Given the way Rose speaks so genuinely about the Olympics and Ryder Cup I’d be extremely surprised and disappointed if he went to Liv.
		
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I was solely playing out a hypothetical situation.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I was solely playing out a hypothetical situation.
		
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In what way does that preclude a fact based response of opinion?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Which is where I find the hypocrisy a big bug bare for me.  They will and do accept Saudi money when it suits, they’d lose a high profile player but still use his support.

And so the circle of debate begins… all over again.

🍿
		
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Who is the “they”

PIF provided prize money for a golf tournament within the ET - the Saudi International and it came with a lot of criticism and some players didn’t play it.

They also provide money for the LET and imo that was full of hypocrisy because they talked a lot about womens rights etc then took the money - think there was a heated debate on here about it

Yes the origins on the money isn’t great but there will be traces to many “unethical” areas etc

That’s not the issue I have with it

The closed shop, the vast amounts being given to players just to be there - it’s just trying to buy a tour and in Norman’s case harm a tour, a tour which has a pathway for many young golfers

Edited - was supposed to be “they”


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is the “we”

PIF provided prize money for a golf tournament within the ET - the Saudi International and it came with a lot of criticism and some players didn’t play it.

They also provide money for the LET and imo that was full of hypocrisy because they talked a lot about womens rights etc then took the money - think there was a heated debate on here about it

Yes the origins on the money isn’t great but there will be traces to many “unethical” areas etc

That’s not the issue I have with it

The closed shop, the vast amounts being given to players just to be there - it’s just trying to buy a tour and in Norman’s case harm a tour, a tour which has a pathway for many young golfers
		
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At no point do I state or use the word “we” in my post.


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## Imurg (Jul 25, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551644508777074689
Plans for a 4up/4 down relegation /QSchool approach...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551644508777074689
Plans for a 4up/4 down relegation /QSchool approach...
		
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A lot of fine print as well 😁

Certain contracted players can’t be relegated ( Gmac breathes a sigh of relief ) , captains can’t be relegated 

So it’s going to be about 10 players fighting against “relegation” - a player could play better than Mickleson all season but he stays and you go 😂

If it’s sticking at 48 then the breathing room isn’t much for any new players


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## Billysboots (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551644508777074689
Plans for a 4up/4 down relegation /QSchool approach...
		
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So, you’re invited to join, then have to play in a Q School, and can be relegated? Sounds like a rather odd approach to a Tour which members can only join by resigning from their day job.


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## Imurg (Jul 25, 2022)

Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again


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## D-S (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again
		
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And we already know who will be answering in the positive and who will be responding in the negative irrespective of the merits or otherwise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again
		
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It seems they go to the International Series ( Expanded Asian Tour ) 🤷‍♂️

I guess with a bit of a golden handshake etc

Also it seems if a team doesn’t want you and doesn’t offer you a contract you will lose the rights to play on the LiV Tour 

It’s a web of mess


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

It just gets worse and worse. Initially, I assumed the Saudis knew what they were doing, even if whether their effort would succeed against the pgat or not wasnt. The more that comes out now, the more it is revealed as a madcap disaster by people who have no idea what they are doing.
The more they reveal, the crazier it gets.
There is a strong suggestion that they are just making it up as they go along. And that the chief ideas man/woman has no background in golf.


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## IainP (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again
		
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No idea on future but do note that 3 players from Centurion have played 8 DP events between them since (welcomed may be wrong word!)


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

The Trump Bedminster event will be a critical event. 9/11 families planning big press coverage and Trump is on record blaming Saudi for 9/11, although an an amoral hypocrite he is still happy to do business with them.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is the “they”

PIF provided prize money for a golf tournament within the ET - the Saudi International and it came with a lot of criticism and some players didn’t play it.

They also provide money for the LET and imo that was full of hypocrisy because they talked a lot about womens rights etc then took the money - think there was a heated debate on here about it

Yes the origins on the money isn’t great but there will be traces to many “unethical” areas etc

That’s not the issue I have with it

The closed shop, the vast amounts being given to players just to be there - it’s just trying to buy a tour and in Norman’s case harm a tour, a tour which has a pathway for many young golfers

Edited - was supposed to be “they”
		
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Do we really have to go back through 4600+ post to make a list of every Saudi linked sponsor in golf or global sports with an unethical back ground?

Or do we just make it easier and pretend it’s just LIV!

I agree the money be thrown around is outrageous, but so is some of the money footballers are paid and we have no issue with that on a global scale, or Hamiltons £45mil just to drive a broom broom …. There are endless examples.

Most new business start by throwing silly numbers around to get it off the floor and taken seriously, LIV is not the first and I’ll bet you a packet of wine gums it won’t be the last.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2022)

Further updates on the “Promotion Tournament”

I’m sure someone can explain it 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551650275039105028

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551651333861687298
seems like they will be offering or allowing all those exempt ( majors winners , players in world rankings etc ). - the chance to play to try and qualify for 3 spots as 4 are relegated unless there are some players that a team owner or captain doesn’t want then they need to try and qualify again plus the 4 relegated- unless of course a player kicked out of the team has a contract that means he has to stay ?! 

All seems pretty clear 🤷‍♂️


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## howbow88 (Jul 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again
		
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If they're not allowed back at all, or given some sort of lengthy ban before they can return (5 years let's say), I think that could be a pretty big deterrent. It wouldn't be nice for the players stuck in limbo, but if you sell your soul then I guess you have to accept the possible consequences.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m sure someone can explain it

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551650275039105028

Click to expand...

No problem. It's quite simple.

Each Promotion event will be a 3 day event if it isnt a 4 day event and doesn't include a 36 hole finale. Or a 4 day event if it isn't a 3 day event and doesn't include a 36 hole finale. Or a 5 day event if it is a 3 day event but includes a 36 hole finale played over 2 days. Or a 5 day event if it is a 4 day event and includes a 36 hole finale with the finale being 36 holes in the 1 day. Or a 4 day event if it is a 3 day event and includes a 36 hole finale over 1 day. Or a 6 day event if it is a 4 day event with a 36 hole finale over 2 days.


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## Ethan (Jul 25, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Do we really have to go back through 4600+ post to make a list of every Saudi linked sponsor in golf or global sports with an unethical back ground?

Or do we just make it easier and pretend it’s just LIV!

I agree the money be thrown around is outrageous, but so is some of the money footballers are paid and we have no issue with that on a global scale, or Hamiltons £45mil just to drive a broom broom …. There are endless examples.

Most new business start by throwing silly numbers around to get it off the floor and taken seriously, LIV is not the first and I’ll bet you a packet of wine gums it won’t be the last.
		
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No, we don't need to go through 4600+ posts. Nobody is pretending there isn't a sliding scale of dodginess, but few could really argue that the LIV Tour isn't pretty close to the most egregious end of that spectrum. 

Taking money directly from the Saudi Royal Family is simply not the same as a hotel chain or a pharma company selling their product in Saudi Arabia. Do you believe that Saudis should not any in hotels or get medicines?

The LET sponsorship by Armco is fairly dodgy too, although the Saudis don't choose the field of players or control the media narrative around it in the same way they do with LIV.

The other factor here is Greg Norman, whose abrasiveness and relish at taking on the PGA Tour inflames the situation quite a bit.


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## Backsticks (Jul 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Further updates on the “Promotion Tournament”

I’m sure someone can explain it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551650275039105028

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551651333861687298
seems like they will be offering or allowing all those exempt ( majors winners , players in world rankings etc ). - the chance to play to try and qualify for 3 spots as 4 are relegated unless there are some players that a team owner or captain doesn’t want then they need to try and qualify again plus the 4 relegated- unless of course a player kicked out of the team has a contract that means he has to stay ?!

All seems pretty clear 🤷‍♂️
		
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I think the great thing about that is that it really simplifies things. Such clarity will really draw in the more casual golf spectator, or ones who find 72 holes of stroke play just too confusing, and are put off the game.


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## RRidges (Jul 25, 2022)

How generous of LIV to grant exemptions into the qualifying tournament for Major winners, PGA Tour winners, DP World Tour winners an top 75 OWGR. All competing for 4 places!
The arrogance is witheringly laughable!
On the other hand, the drip-fed PR is first rate!


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 26, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551554331211694081
LIV Golf enthusiast 😂
Certainly got some of the bed wetters biting 😂


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## Oddsocks (Jul 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Comes back to the question of what do the relegated players do..?
Will they be welcomed back on other Tours?
Probably raises more questions than it answers...again
		
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This for me is the most important question, but it is also one with pros and cons which need to be weighed up.

An old childhood friend got to +4/5 and was on one of the euro tours (I can’t recall which exactly) he did this for few years with family support but will openly admit the pressure on Fridays made him hate the game.  If he missed the cut he would have to go back to the family for travel fees, entry fees etc for the next event and he hated it.  In his final year he come home from his final comp, weighed up how much he had earned over a period and how much the family had invested and it was a clear cut choice to quit there and then.

He went back into the family business, started a family and has now taken over as a joint owner of a very successful business.  The only golf he plays is Sunday morning with his dad which he loves.

Using the above example someone finishing in the 40-48 in the first event would have made more than my pal did in 3/4 years just from the events he qualified for (not deducting the expenses for the events he didn’t) so you can 100% understand why up and comers have signed for LIV.  It’s then down to them to decide to they make as much as they can in the year that they are attracting big names, cash in and if the tours don’t welcome them back go down another route such as a teaching pro with the exception of being mortgage free etc etc etc.

I don’t believe there is a right answer, only the individual can decide that.  But having seen someone invest from their early teens  through to their early 30’s only to still have not received much financial stability I can definitely appreciate the reasoning why.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Further updates on the “Promotion Tournament”

I’m sure someone can explain it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551650275039105028

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551651333861687298
seems like they will be offering or allowing all those exempt ( majors winners , players in world rankings etc ). - the chance to play to try and qualify for 3 spots as 4 are relegated unless there are some players that a team owner or captain doesn’t want then they need to try and qualify again plus the 4 relegated- unless of course a player kicked out of the team has a contract that means he has to stay ?!

All seems pretty clear 🤷‍♂️
		
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The system is simple enough. LIV will keep all the marquee names and high ranking players and kick out/promote some lesser names now and again to make it look like a dynamic system.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			This for me is the most important question, but it is also one with pros and cons which need to be weighed up.

An old childhood friend got to +4/5 and was on one of the euro tours (I can’t recall which exactly) he did this for few years with family support but will openly admit the pressure on Fridays made him hate the game.  If he missed the cut he would have to go back to the family for travel fees, entry fees etc for the next event and he hated it.  In his final year he come home from his final comp, weighed up how much he had earned over a period and how much the family had invested and it was a clear cut choice to quit there and then.

He went back into the family business, started a family and has now taken over as a joint owner of a very successful business.  The only golf he plays is Sunday morning with his dad which he loves.

Using the above example someone finishing in the 40-48 in the first event would have made more than my pal did in 3/4 years just from the events he qualified for (not deducting the expenses for the events he didn’t) so you can 100% understand why up and comers have signed for LIV.  It’s then down to them to decide to they make as much as they can in the year that they are attracting big names, cash in and if the tours don’t welcome them back go down another route such as a teaching pro with the exception of being mortgage free etc etc etc.

I don’t believe there is a right answer, only the individual can decide that.  But having seen someone invest from their early teens  through to their early 30’s only to still have not received much financial stability I can definitely appreciate the reasoning why.
		
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I’m guessing it’s a similar story across a lot of professional sports where people are fighting hard to make it beyond the feeder level into the main level of competition- I think it’s not much different with tennis according to a mate whose daughter is trying for it right now - lots of hard work at low tours.

You can see many young up and coming pros on the likes of the EuroPro battling away to get on the Challenge Tour - there is always such a small level that go though to the next level and then the next level up , they are all talented golfers but it seems they really do need that something special to make it or just a touch of good timing. 

You can’t blame anyone at that level jumping at the chance to go to a tour that will guarantee them more money than most win on tour


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449


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## Oddsocks (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can’t blame anyone at that level jumping at the chance to go to a tour that will guarantee them more money than most win on tour
		
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My thoughts exactly.  I think (no doubt wrong) that the last place lad player at centurion got around 120~150k plus what ever his sign up money was.

Depending on where he lives 3 rounds of live would potentially see him mortgage free or a low mortgage with enough in the bank to grind out a couple of years on a feeder tour without the fear of expenses crippling him.

In an ideal world and with a bit of irony, the LIV may have been better received as another feeder tour offering sensible purses to feed new talent.

For example £75k signing on bonus(nett after to tax to approx £40k salary) for the player £35k for the caddy(nett 25k salary) An assured 3 round showing were 48th place received 10-25k working it’s way up. Work on the same relegation based system, 4 in 4 out. Even keep 4 spare as a promoters choice for local prospects.

If you had the opportunity and sucked at all 3 rounds, you would still earn approx £150k gross in 3 rounds, caddy maybe £75k gross

From the industry it would have “ grown the game of golf “, it would just have had no following as it didn’t have the big names.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			This for me is the most important question, but it is also one with pros and cons which need to be weighed up.

An old childhood friend got to +4/5 and was on one of the euro tours (I can’t recall which exactly) he did this for few years with family support but will openly admit the pressure on Fridays made him hate the game.  If he missed the cut he would have to go back to the family for travel fees, entry fees etc for the next event and he hated it.  In his final year he come home from his final comp, weighed up how much he had earned over a period and how much the family had invested and it was a clear cut choice to quit there and then.

He went back into the family business, started a family and has now taken over as a joint owner of a very successful business.  The only golf he plays is Sunday morning with his dad which he loves.

Using the above example someone finishing in the 40-48 in the first event would have made more than my pal did in 3/4 years just from the events he qualified for (not deducting the expenses for the events he didn’t) so you can 100% understand why up and comers have signed for LIV.  It’s then down to them to decide to they make as much as they can in the year that they are attracting big names, cash in and if the tours don’t welcome them back go down another route such as a teaching pro with the exception of being mortgage free etc etc etc.

I don’t believe there is a right answer, only the individual can decide that.  But having seen someone invest from their early teens  through to their early 30’s only to still have not received much financial stability I can definitely appreciate the reasoning why.
		
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That is professional sport. May try, few succeed. There are tons of young players kicked out of football academy teams, athletes who never make it, golfers are no different. The LIV Tour offers no answers for that, paying a tiny number of younger players doesn't help the vast majority, and LIV will soon kick the failures to the kerb anyway. LIV may be making it worse by offering false hope that they have no real intent on following though on.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

It may not be hearsay, but it still might be a bunch of Pro V1s. As an agent, Elkington (who is a friend of Greg Norman), may be talking up the LIV Tour for his own business reasons, so you have to take what he says with a large carton of salt.


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## Imurg (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

They're not all going to get one because they can't all play at the same time.....unless they're going to have 3 or 4 events running at the same time..


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

Do we know who Elkington looks after ?

And also he is best buds with Norman isn’t he ? 

85% does seem to be a bit too high but it could be pros gossiping - the same pros that currently earn a lot of money each year 

As for the sponsors - haven’t a number of them actually removed the sponsorship from the players ? 

and is it 30 players ? Didn’t realise it was that many from the PGA Tour - but it is good that most of them are replaceable expect the  likes of DJ , BDC and Koepka 

You would hope that the PGA tour is certainly bigger than a handful of players at the end of the day 

But I still think the key is going to be the ranking points - many of those players who have left will miss out on majors - WGC’s , Ryder Cups etc - if the players aren’t worried about those then they will go to LIV

But as we have seen they are sticking with that 48 player limit so how many more will they ask ?


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we know who Elkington looks after ?

And also he is best buds with Norman isn’t he ?

85% does seem to be a bit too high but it could be pros gossiping - the same pros that currently earn a lot of money each year

As for the sponsors - haven’t a number of them actually removed the sponsorship from the players ?

and is it 30 players ? Didn’t realise it was that many from the PGA Tour - but it is good that most of them are replaceable expect the  likes of DJ , BDC and Koepka

You would hope that the PGA tour is certainly bigger than a handful of players at the end of the day

But I still think the key is going to be the ranking points - many of those players who have left will miss out on majors - WGC’s , Ryder Cups etc - if the players aren’t worried about those then they will go to LIV

But as we have seen they are sticking with that 48 player limit so how many more will they ask ?
		
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The LIV Tour is not interested in setting up a whole golf ecosystem. They basically want one headline set of events, perhaps one each for men and women, with some end of season play-offs for the lesser lights to fight it out. They won't be setting up structures of Tours like Korn Ferry or Challenge, and won't be doing grass-roots stuff except as disguised advertising or for some tax breaks.


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## Orikoru (Jul 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			They're not all going to get one because they can't all play at the same time.....unless they're going to have 3 or 4 events running at the same time..
		
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With all this talk of promotion and relegation, maybe they'll have a LIV Premier League and a LIV Championship.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			With all this talk of promotion and relegation, maybe they'll have a LIV Premier League and a LIV Championship. 

Click to expand...

Since it is Saudi, maybe it will be more like a Hunger Games.


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			With all this talk of promotion and relegation, maybe they'll have a LIV Premier League and a LIV Championship. 

Click to expand...

Sounds daft but who knows, maybe they are going to try and fashion some sort of league system which would be quite interesting imo.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2022)

Pretty ruthless that 9 original members have been kicked out of the first 48.
Where do they go now or do they just retire on their new wealth?
Fairly obvious how this is going to work now and I cannot see it failing.
Sad times for golf.

Often wondered if the LIV caddies still get the same percentage of winnings


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Sounds daft but who knows, maybe they are going to try and fashion some sort of league system which would be quite interesting imo.
		
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In some ways it’s not a bad idea - other tours have it when players drop to different tours etc 

But would need to be all level and true relegation as such based on performance only - people shouldn’t be exempt based on their name

It’s like saying that even if Liverpool/City or United finish in the bottom 3 they still won’t be relegated


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In some ways it’s not a bad idea - other tours have it when players drop to different tours etc 

But would need to be all level and true relegation as such based on performance only - people shouldn’t be exempt based on their name

It’s like saying that even if Liverpool/City or United finish in the bottom 3 they still won’t be relegated
		
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100%
Certainly an interesting concept should they try and go down the football league system route but like you say, it really should be a true and fair league with no one exempt from relegation.


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## Backsticks (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’

You can’t blame anyone at that level jumping at the chance to go to a tour that will guarantee them more money than most win on tour
		
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Nobody that lowly will get within a mile of the Saudi tour if they have their way. Saudi's goal is the best 48 players in the world. The rest are of no interest to them.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

Another thing Elkington said that I thought was very interesting is that Hideki Matsuyama is rumoured to have already signed and he is going to head up an all Japanese Team.
This is so Norman can get a lucrative Japanese TV contract and a huge Japanese sponsor franchise for that team.

That is actually very smart as Hideki is a GOD in Japan.

Elkington did seem to have some very insightful inside knowledge what ever you think his motive might be.


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## Backsticks (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

Saudi only wants the 15 % though. And for the most part, so far, they arent biting.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Saudi only wants the 15 % though. And for the most part, so far, they arent biting.
		
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Yes as Elkington said Cameron Smith and any other big names are not going to bite/move (If they are) till after the big pay day on the PGA Tour that is the Fed Ex Tour Championship.
So we wont really know the full landscape till mid September.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Another thing Elkington said that I thought was very interesting is that Hideki Matsuyama is rumoured to have already signed and he is going to head up an all Japanese Team.
This is so Norman can get a lucrative Japanese TV contract and a huge Japanese sponsor franchise for that team.

That is actually very smart as Hideki is a GOD in Japan.

Elkington did seem to have some very insightful inside knowledge what ever you think his motive might be.
		
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I am sure Elkington does have insight but he also has bills to pay and private jets to refuel, so he is likely to be playing games too.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			They're not all going to get one because they can't all play at the same time.....unless they're going to have 3 or 4 events running at the same time..
		
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I think its probably a mistake to think that the current Liv Model is set in stone and will limit the damage that can be done to the PGA Tour.

As has been mentioned it could go 72 hole with a 54 player cut and then have a shotgun start for the Saturday and Sunday.
With their financial backing they would give a payday to players with missed the cut.


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## rksquire (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

It probably is worrying for the PGA Tour, how worried remains to be seen; the intervening period post Fed Ex Cup & start of the season proper (not the wrap around nonsense) is probably going to be crucial. 

I've read a lot of comments by pros, some of which could be interpreted as a 'make me an offer', others which are quite clear.  For example, Max Homa is very clear, appears very much to be taking his lead from McIlroy.  Jamie Donaldson, it appears, would welcome an offer but really, having not played in the first tournament, even the LIV field on average has moved well beyond him. 

I've also read, albeit unsubstantiated, a lot of commentary with regard to Monahan and Pelley and general dissatisfaction with their handling of things (particularly Pelley it must be said).  To be taken with more than a pinch of salt (unnamed sources, 3rd party comments etc.) but there are suggestions Pelley's position is under a lot more pressure than Monahans.

I have my own personal bugbear with regard to the media's handling / reporting of this, comparative to their handling of Saudi interest's in other sports, but Carters column extolling everything good in the world of golf at the weekend (ie who needs LIV!) clearly shows, and to some extent echoes the commentary on here, you can dress a lot of things up to be more positive or negative than they are.  Finau winning - great, affable guy, but beyond the top 3 (and even including the top 3), it was really quite a week field (weaker than a LIV field). 

Richie Ramsay winning the Cazoo - again, brilliant, there's a story there on a human level, but it's not highlighting the virtues of DPWT above LIV; if anything, it highlights the main issue of the DPWT as a product (a guy who hasn't won in 7 years now sits 20th in the Race to Dubai (top 10 dominated by players who, essentially, 'are not' DPWT players), and has a chance of picking up a PGA Tour Golden Ticket).  It's not my place to tell anyone how to do their job but if you're pursuing an anti-LIV sentiment / model, the story from Cazoo (indeed any future DPWT events) is the inclusion of any LIV alumni and their relative success or lack thereof (Fisher & Bekker, having banked about $1m between them at Centurion) making no impact whatsoever; the case of Fisher, picking up just over £3k, highlights (to me) the inadequacies of trying to pursue a career in DPWT - thankfully he has his LIV earnings this year because I imagine his Cazoo expenditure exceeded his prize money. 

Anyway, I watched a lot of the Evian (seemed nobody wanted to win it, then Henderson got her act together) and the Seniors Open (won by the anything but affable Clarke) and enjoyed both for what they were.  It was a weekend of golf, not on the level of the previous weekend, and certainly not at the level Carter claims.

That said, excited to see McIlroy at Wentworth, although given he's top of the Race to Dubai I imagine it's the least he can do - he hasn't been seen since the monied Dubai January events.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I still think the key is going to be the ranking points - many of those players who have left will miss out on majors - WGC’s , Ryder Cups etc - if the players aren’t worried about those then they will go to LIV

But as we have seen they are sticking with that 48 player limit so how many more will they ask ?
		
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I agree on the ranking points 100%.
I dont think the LiV model is set in stone, it can be tweaked if they want to(see previous post)

If enough top players move to Liv they will be forced to do it though as the Majors just want the strongest field they can have for their event.

Going to be a huge golf news month in September me thinks with the excitement of the end of the PGA Fed Ex competition and then the LIV transfer window will open in earnest.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

Until Steve Elkington comes out and says it in person, naming the 85% of pros waiting for offers, it’s hearsay as far as I’m concerned.


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## Ethan (Jul 26, 2022)

Even though it is a rather large trough, the attraction reduces if there are too many snouts in it.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 26, 2022)

I noticed on socials media this morning they Sergio has not resigned his DPWT card in the hope it gives him eligibility to the Ryder cup.

Is this the start of him wanting to you U-turn or simply that he still has the RC passion?

Regarding this 85%, forget the rage to Dubai it seems it’s going to be more a race to Saudi because as that field fills up with high profile players the signing money will drop.


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## sunshine (Jul 26, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			As BIM said above there are talks about LIV and womens events.
		
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Here we go again. You’re getting confused between facts and Twitter debates. A random person on the internet suggests Liv could look at womens events and you have made the leap that Liv is in talks regarding womens events. 🤦‍♂️

I have a Nigerian friend who inherited $10m but can’t access the cash. I think you could really help him out.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 26, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I have a Nigerian friend who inherited $10m but can’t access the cash. I think you could really help him out.
		
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There are several discussions going on this thread, maybe get mod powers so that you can police it personally?


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

More on how Steve Elkington sees it playing out. 
Only time will tell if he is right. 

Actually could be the end of September before the LIV Golf transfer window opens in earnest because as he says a lot of the reported players will want to play in the Presidents Cup.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551918396593344514


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 26, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Here we go again. You’re getting confused between facts and Twitter debates. A random person on the internet suggests Liv could look at womens events and you have made the leap that Liv is in talks regarding womens events. 🤦‍♂️

I have a Nigerian friend who inherited $10m but can’t access the cash. I think you could really help him out.
		
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https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.c...ues-and-Governing-Bodies/LIV-Womens-Tour.aspx


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.c...ues-and-Governing-Bodies/LIV-Womens-Tour.aspx

Click to expand...

Got to chuckle at this quote, 

"The Saudi-backed Aramco Team Series "takes place across three continents." A team series of that kind "aligns with LIV Golf's team concept" that has become the "most popular feature of its men's series." 

Not sure that many would agree that the team concept is the most popular feature.


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## Backsticks (Jul 26, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got to chuckle at this quote, 

"The Saudi-backed Aramco Team Series "takes place across three continents." A team series of that kind "aligns with LIV Golf's team concept" that has become the "most popular feature of its men's series." 

Not sure that many would agree that the team concept is the most popular feature.
		
Click to expand...

 I think it shows how any statemet from LIV is complete fiction.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			More on how Steve Elkington sees it playing out.
Only time will tell if he is right.

Actually could be the end of September before the LIV Golf transfer window opens in earnest because as he says a lot of the reported players will want to play in the Presidents Cup.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551918396593344514

Click to expand...

Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone have a link to the full interview


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551982378029125632
there was also an interesting dialogue with a guy who it seems does taxes for golfers -

Apparently earning $1mil in prize money a year isn’t enough for pro golfers to earn a living now


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## The Lion (Jul 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551982378029125632
there was also an interesting dialogue with a guy who it seems does taxes for golfers -

Apparently earning $1mil in prize money a year isn’t enough for pro golfers to earn a living now
		
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That sounds impossible, even if as much as 30% is taxes, 20% expenses and 10% goes to caddie. Maybe they just feel entitled to far more.


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## sunshine (Jul 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This must be very worrying for the PGA Tour. This is not hearsay he is an agent for PGA Tour players and obviously talks to other agents as well as having other inside knowledge. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551844814005608449

Click to expand...

You are truly pathetic. 85% is not a statistic it is a guess. You don’t know the meaning of the word or you are deliberately lying or spreading disinformation. Elkington even says “they are saying 85%” which by definition is hearsay. The man is explicitly saying this is hearsay and here you are stating it is not hearsay but fact. 

I don’t mind you having a different view from me, I don’t mind you being a fan of Liv. I do mind your false statements, lies and propaganda.


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## sunshine (Jul 26, 2022)

The Lion said:



			That sounds impossible, even if as much as 30% is taxes, 20% expenses and 10% goes to caddie. Maybe they just feel entitled to far more.
		
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I tend to agree with you. Taxes will be calculated on earnings after deductions for expenses, caddie etc.


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## sunshine (Jul 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.c...ues-and-Governing-Bodies/LIV-Womens-Tour.aspx

Click to expand...

Thank you. In the article Greg Norman says they aren’t in talks with the women’s tours. But it’s something to consider in the future. It’s on the page in black and white ffs


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 26, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Thank you. In the article Greg Norman says they aren’t in talks with the women’s tours. But it’s something to consider in the future. It’s on the page in black and white ffs
		
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Don’t ffs me Sunshine (see what I did there 😂

This thread is turning into Golf Montly Gold. 🤣


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## IainP (Jul 26, 2022)

Just when I thought I was having the hang of it , Majesticks = English team...
Now it isn't 🤣😂
Suppose European then 🤷‍♂️
Guess it becomes clear in 2023 ... maybe 😉


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## RRidges (Jul 26, 2022)

The Lion said:



			That sounds impossible, even if as much as 30% is taxes, 20% expenses and 10% goes to caddie. Maybe they just feel entitled to far more.
		
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PGA Tour golfers can have about a dozen other folk on their 'staff'! https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-team-that-makes-jason-day-go
So plenty of fixed additional expenses involved


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 26, 2022)

Bold move. 
PGA Tour have gone straight to Joe biden & lobbying on capitol Hill to try and stop the liv golf tour based on the origin of the funding 

Wasnt Biden just in Saudi Arabia negotiating for a better oil deal recently. 

Also the department for justice are reported to be investigating the PGA Tour for anticompetitive behavior for suspending players. 

Don't see either resulting in anything significant but the legal battles are kicking off. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/21/ins...ing-effort-against-saudi-funded-liv-golf.html


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Bold move.
PGA Tour have gone straight to Joe biden & lobbying on capitol Hill to try and stop the liv golf tour based on the origin of the funding
		
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Where does it state they have gone to Washington based on the origin of the funding?


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Where does it state they have gone to Washington based on the origin of the funding?
		
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The lobby is on Saudi Arabian influence on American Life.

https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/node/6776


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## RRidges (Jul 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The lobby is on Saudi Arabian influence on American Life.

https://www.cornyn.senate.gov/node/6776

Click to expand...

H'mm. A pretty serious message received when I followed that link! I hope you are happy to pay my court costs!


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 27, 2022)

I can’t remember seeing this much of an uproar over the Ladies European tour players cashing Saudi cheques.


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Beacuse there wasnt. It isnt about the source of the money. Its about control.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 27, 2022)

RRidges said:



			H'mm. A pretty serious message received when I followed that link! I hope you are happy to pay my court costs!
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's a public document linked to by many of the news articles on the lobbying news story


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Beacuse there wasnt. It isnt about the source of the money. Its about control.
		
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Seems to me people are getting a bit obsessed about it and basically just making the same points over & over again.
They won’t be watching it but are spending hours discussing it 🤷‍♂️
And it is about the source of the money 👍🏻


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Seems to me people are getting a bit obsessed about it and basically just making the same points over & over again.
They won’t be watching it but are spending hours discussing it 🤷‍♂️
And it is about the source of the money 👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think it about the source of the money, when as you state, there wasnt uproar before with other Saudi funding. The game chamger with LIV is that they want to control the key professional tournaments outside of the 4 majors with the worlds best players, and a structure that steals the crown jewels of wins and Fedex rankings from the pgat. It wants to drink the pgats milkshake, and make it a feeder second division. THATS the issue now. The source of the money is what enables LIV to be that threat. But the source, in and of itself is not the issue for the pgat.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Why do you think it about the source of the PGAT money, when as you state, there wasnt uproar before with other Saudi funding. The game chamger with LIV is that they want to control the key professional tournaments outside of the 4 majors with the worlds best players, and a structure that steals the crown jewels of wins and Fedex rankings from the pgat. It wants to drink the pgats milkshake, and make it a feeder second division. THATS the issue now. The source of the money is what enables LIV to be that threat. But the source, in and of itself is not the issue for the pgat.
		
Click to expand...

So where is your concern about the source of the money that has taken and continues to take away the top players away from the ET/DPWT - and the extra funding for prize money they’ve just announced to try and keep CONTROL of all the worlds best golfers?


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Why do you think it about the source of the money, when as you state, there wasnt uproar before with other Saudi funding. The game chamger with LIV is that they want to control the key professional tournaments outside of the 4 majors with the worlds best players, and a structure that steals the crown jewels of wins and Fedex rankings from the pgat. It wants to drink the pgats milkshake, and make it a feeder second division. THATS the issue now. The source of the money is what enables LIV to be that threat. But the source, in and of itself is not the issue for the pgat.
		
Click to expand...

So no one’s mentioned where the money is coming from?
No one’s mentioned sports washing?
No one’s mentioned the Saudis executing people?
I suggest you read this thread from the start 👍🏻


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So where is your concern about the source of the money that has taken and continues to take away the top players away from the ET/DPWT - and the extra funding for prize money they’ve just announced to try and keep CONTROL of all the worlds best golfers?
		
Click to expand...

When it comes to being critical of the Ladies and Aramco I think the reactions have been different for a few reasons 

1. The ladies game without disrespecting doesn’t have the world wide appeal and attention that the mens game does so it will be going under the radar 

2. It was a couple of years ago that the ladies golf were very vocal about human rights and ladies equal opportunities but then they took the Saudi money and there was a thread on here that did get heated and many were very critical of the hypocrisy 

In regards the “source” of sponsership etc at many golf tournaments the vast majority will not know what company sponsers what and also the back drop of that company, I don’t know half the company’s that sponser events on the PGA or ET - people don’t know the source 

It was only recently that people even knew who Aramco were and their background - same with DP etc 

The subtle difference when it comes to LIV is the sole funding is coming from the Saudi state - it’s not a company it’s the States Investment Fund - the same state that many people have been critical about for many reasons which most can’t be discussed but the same state that does have horrific human rights and recently assassinated a journalist 

The PGA tour isn’t funded by the US government funds, the ET isn’t funded by any European Governments etc and the same with any golf tour as far as I’m aware 

Hence why it comes under the title of sports washing - it’s the stage trying to find a way to clean their image up or should we say hide the atrocities that happen and using money and sport to do that 

Some are critical of that , some are critical of the funds 

Myself - the money levels I believe are disgusting - where it comes from isn’t my primary complaint , my issue is the level players are getting and the whole closed nature of it all. Golf has tried hard to clean up images and imo LIV golf is damaging it right now because of the way it is going about things and that’s all derived by one person whose motives are about the good of the game of growing the game it’s about a grudge against a tour and using a bottomless pit of money to carry that out.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So where is your concern about the source of the money that has taken and continues to take away the top players away from the ET/DPWT - and the extra funding for prize money they’ve just announced to try and keep CONTROL of all the worlds best golfers?
		
Click to expand...

So let's be clear, where do you stand on the ethics of taking the Saudi money:

1. Don't give a toss what the source of the money is, you can spend in the shops
2. A bit uncomfortable but the world is a messy place and much of the money in it is dirty
3. Really don't approve but it will change as more sponsors come in
4. Evil blood money from Beelzebub himself

OK, you don't think it is 4, but which of those is closest?


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## AussieKB (Jul 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So let's be clear, where do you stand on the ethics of taking the Saudi money:

1. Don't give a toss what the source of the money is, you can spend in the shops
2. A bit uncomfortable but the world is a messy place and much of the money in it is dirty
3. Really don't approve but it will change as more sponsors come in
4. Evil blood money from Beelzebub himself

OK, you don't think it is 4, but which of those is closest?
		
Click to expand...

Let's go Brandon was just in Saudi begging for oil so it must be OK as far as the yanks are concerned, have had many English and Aussie friends go and work there, and no one I know has ever complained about it.

So I guess I am number 1.


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes to being critical of the Ladies and Aramco I think the reactions have been different for a few reasons

1. The ladies game without disrespecting doesn’t have the world wide appeal and attention that the mens game does so it will be going under the radar

2. It was a couple of years ago that the ladies golf were very vocal about human rights and ladies equal opportunities but then they took the Saudi money and there was a thread on here that did get heated and many were very critical of the hypocrisy

In regards the “source” of sponsership etc at many golf tournaments the vast majority will not know what company sponsers what and also the back drop of that company, I don’t know half the company’s that sponser events on the PGA or ET - people don’t know the source

It was only recently that people even knew who Aramco were and their background - same with DP etc

The subtle difference when it comes to LIV is the sole funding is coming from the Saudi state - it’s not a company it’s the States Investment Fund - the same state that many people have been critical about for many reasons which most can’t be discussed but the same state that does have horrific human rights and recently assassinated a journalist

The PGA tour isn’t funded by the US government funds, the ET isn’t funded by any European Governments etc and the same with any golf tour as far as I’m aware

Hence why it comes under the title of sports washing - it’s the stage trying to find a way to clean their image up or should we say hide the atrocities that happen and using money and sport to do that

Some are critical of that , some are critical of the funds

Myself - the money levels I believe are disgusting - where it comes from isn’t my primary complaint , my issue is the level players are getting and the whole closed nature of it all. Golf has tried hard to clean up images and imo LIV golf is damaging it right now because of the way it is going about things and that’s all derived by one person whose motives are about the good of the game of growing the game it’s about a grudge against a tour and using a bottomless pit of money to carry that out.
		
Click to expand...

Are you ok with the money levels in other sports?
Football for example.
Players on £200k pw wanting £300k pw?
Or is that also discusting? 🤷‍♂️
And im pretty sure you’ve expressed a issue with where the money is coming from several times 👍🏻👍🏻


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			So no one’s mentioned where the money is coming from?
No one’s mentioned sports washing?
No one’s mentioned the Saudis executing people?
I suggest you read this thread from the start 👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

Thats a bit Kathy Newman - so what you are saying is Im a lobster.

No. I suggest you read the thread more closely. I didnt say no one has mentioned those issues.
I am saying that the PGAT has a different issue, and is not fighting LIV because of executions. It is fighting for commercial control that it holds, but is now threatened.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Let's go Brandon was just in Saudi begging for oil so it must be OK as far as the yanks are concerned, have had many English and Aussie friends go and work there, and no one I know has ever complained about it.

So I guess I am number 1.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't go to Saudi to work, but I don't consider working there, especially for an international company, on a par with taking money directly from the Saudi royal family.


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			So no one’s mentioned where the money is coming from?
No one’s mentioned sports washing?
No one’s mentioned the Saudis executing people?
I suggest you read this thread from the start 👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

The PGAT is not fighting because it wishes to fight sportswashing per se.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I wouldn't go to Saudi to work, but I don't consider working there, especially for an international company, on a par with taking money directly from the Saudi royal family.
		
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LIV Golf is an international company.


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV Golf is an international company.
		
Click to expand...

Who are the 'beneficial owners' I think is the phrase ?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who are the 'beneficial owners' I think is the phrase ?
		
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Who are the beneficial owners of the PGA Tour?


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## r0wly86 (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Who are the beneficial owners of the PGA Tour?
		
Click to expand...

No one, the PGA is a not for profit organisation for the running of professional golf events in the USA, though the members i.e. the professional golfers have a large say in how it is run.

Whereas LIV is solely funded by the Saudi Arabian Public Investment Fund, the least transparent sovereign wealth fund in the world, controlled by the Saudi Arabian government and headed by the de facto ruler


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## Backsticks (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Who are the beneficial owners of the PGA Tour?
		
Click to expand...

Nobody. It is non profit.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV Golf is an international company.
		
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It is 100% funded by the Saudi royal family. So, what about the question on funding, or are you going to dodge the tricky questions again?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Nobody. It is non profit.
		
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So how much profit will LIV make this year?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It is 100% funded by the Saudi royal family. So, what about the question on funding, or are you going to dodge the tricky questions again?
		
Click to expand...

No it isn’t, it will already be picking up income from other sources, small amounts of course, but that will grow over time.


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## Beezerk (Jul 27, 2022)

😂😂😂


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No it isn’t, it will already be picking up income from other sources, small amounts of course, but that will grow over time.
		
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Really? How much and from where? Have you the published accounts? 



Mel Smooth said:



			So how much profit will LIV make this year?
		
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I assume you are not so financially illiterate as to conflate non-profit with loss-making.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Really? How much and from where? Have you the published accounts?



I assume you are not so financially illiterate as to conflate non-profit with loss-making.
		
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Nobody has the published accounts - they don’t exist, but they’ll be receiving money from You Tube. Longer term, this will be replaced with more lucrative tv deals.

As I said, it’s small amounts but they (already) won’t be 100% funded by the PIF


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody has the published accounts - they don’t exist, but they’ll be receiving money from You Tube. Longer term, this will be replaced with more lucrative tv deals.

As I said, it’s small amounts but they (already) won’t be 100% funded by the PIF
		
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Speculation and waffle, as usual.

So, how do you feel about the source of the money. You seem to have an answer for everything, even if patently nonsensical. Have a go at my question if you dare.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Speculation and waffle, as usual.

So, how do you feel about the source of the money. You seem to have an answer for everything, even if patently nonsensical. Have a go at my question if you dare.
		
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Why is it speculation and waffle. You Tube pays people who attract enough traffic to their platform, it’s called monetisation. 
Go and click on a video on the LIV golf YouTube channel. There’s adverts before the video starts. LIV golf will receive a son of that ad revenue.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 27, 2022)

🤦‍♂️

Everyone knows that currently all the money is coming from PIF which is the Saudi state investment fund 

They have prob spent over $2bn alone on recruiting players and then the prize money 

That will change if it becomes a success and they find sponsors and media deals and sell these franchises etc - and it might become sustainable but that’s all potential future working


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## Jimaroid (Jul 27, 2022)

Based on current metrics of Liv Golf’s 140K subscribers and video view counts, with publically available estimations they currently stand to make a staggering $23,000 revenue from YouTube.

Just about enough to buy Mickelson his breakfast at each event.


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## BrianM (Jul 27, 2022)

Why are people not outraged about the money they pump into F1 / Aston Martin, the Indian cricket league, the ladies golf tour, there’s probably more, it’s no different.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 27, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Why are people not outraged about the money they pump into F1 / Aston Martin, the Indian cricket league, the ladies golf tour, there’s probably more, it’s no different.
		
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Not to mention the billions in arms we sell them every year...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 27, 2022)

Thread locked, will clean up later
Those who resort to insults can expect infractions


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Why are people not outraged about the money they pump into F1 / Aston Martin, the Indian cricket league, the ladies golf tour, there’s probably more, it’s no different.
		
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I think there are a few reasons

1. It’s a golf forum so I’m not sure how many will be looking at the money in F1 , Aston Martin , IPL etc - I certainly don’t know but it will all be the same - sportswashing etc , The IPL for me is one of the worst things in the sport

2. Ladies Golf - there was a lot of discussion in the past about them taking the Saudi money and many called it hypocritical

As i said earlier there is a subtle difference as well - a lot of those sports etc are being sponsored by companies etc and many won’t know the back story etc

LiV is being funded directly by the Saudi state

And people have said the same thing about them buying Newcastle



theoneandonly said:



			Not to mention the billions in arms we sell them every year...
		
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That’s very much a political issue and I have no doubt that many won’t be happy with it 

But I’m also not aware when the relevant governments who sell these contracts have anything to do with golf tours


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 28, 2022)

Bubba Watson the latest to join LIV. Another signing of a golfer that is past their peak. 

Maybe there is a place for the LIV tour. It can sit between the PGA tour and the Seniors tour as a halfway house for those too old to compete at PGA level but not yet old enough for the Seniors.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Bubba Watson the latest to join LIV. Another signing of a golfer that is past their peak.

Maybe there is a place for the LIV tour. It can sit between the PGA tour and the Seniors tour as a halfway house for those too old to compete at PGA level but not yet old enough for the Seniors.
		
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The Mid-Life Crisis Tour?


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## Orikoru (Jul 28, 2022)

Just realised it's an LIV event this weekend. Can anyone tell me the time different please? i.e. what times will play start and end UK times?


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Just realised it's an LIV event this weekend. Can anyone tell me the time different please? i.e. what times will play start and end UK times?
		
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US Eastern time, UK - 5 hours.


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## AussieKB (Jul 28, 2022)

I would pay to watch Bubba and Phil play more than 80% of the PGA Tour 95% of Euro Tour, just like I would have paid to watch Seve at the end of his career.

And it looks like I will have a chance as LIV is coming to OZ next year, yippee.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The Mid-Life Crisis Tour?
		
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The hole in one prize could be a soft top car with a young blonde that they leave their wife for. And a season ticket to their local zoo so that they can take the kids every other weekend when they get to visit.


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## RRidges (Jul 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I would pay to watch Bubba and Phil play more than 80% of the PGA Tour 95% of Euro Tour, just like I would have paid to watch Seve at the end of his career.

And it looks like I will have a chance as LIV is coming to OZ next year, yippee.
		
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Lucky the LIV guys are avoiding so much travelling then!


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## Imurg (Jul 28, 2022)

Oops


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I would pay to watch Bubba and Phil play more than 80% of the PGA Tour 95% of Euro Tour, just like I would have paid to watch Seve at the end of his career.

And it looks like I will have a chance as LIV is coming to OZ next year, yippee.
		
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I think with Bubba, LIV now have 5 of the top ten from the PIP that the PGA introduced last year. 
They may not be the best players on the tours, but they are the ones that attract media interest. Some of the groups for tomorrow are starting to look pretty strong now.


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## JamesR (Jul 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I would pay to watch Bubba and Phil play more than 80% of the PGA Tour 95% of Euro Tour, just like I would have paid to watch Seve at the end of his career.

And it looks like I will have a chance as LIV is coming to OZ next year, yippee.
		
Click to expand...

I've watched Bubba live at the Open in Troon 2016.
He wasn't actually as spectacular as you may think. Yes he hits big cuts, and some draws (but not many). But his short game is wonky as hell, so there's none of the Mickleson/Seve masterclass that you may expect.


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## Orikoru (Jul 28, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I've watched Bubba live at the Open in Troon 2016.
He wasn't actually as spectacular as you may think. Yes he hits big cuts, and some draws (but not many). But his short game is wonky as hell, so there's none of the Mickleson/Seve masterclass that you may expect.
		
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I find Bubba very entertaining though, with some of the lines he takes, the drivers off the deck, the huge cuts and draws as you mentioned. LIV is possibly the perfect outlet for him at this point.


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## JamesR (Jul 28, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I find Bubba very entertaining though, with some of the lines he takes, the drivers off the deck, the huge cuts and draws as you mentioned. LIV is possibly the perfect outlet for him at this point.
		
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I didn't think he was that entertaining though. A bit disappointing for me. He didn't take on as many shots as Rory, who was in the same group, and those big fades seemed as though they were maybe exaggerated by the TV.
But perhaps he was just off his game that day?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2022)

So the announcements about next year were a bit interesting 

There will be 14 LIV events which they need to play - all over the world 

Then there is the Asian International Series which is seems they also need to play or a certain amount of the events and of course they are all over in the Far East 

Then there is the Majors 

So it looks like going from playing less events and less golf and less travel etc they will actually be spending a lot more time on the road , away from home and family 

I’m guessing they are going to start to get their flesh of skin from the money they are giving them - wonder what the players think of it


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the announcements about next year were a bit interesting

There will be 14 LIV events which they need to play - all over the world

Then there is the Asian International Series which is seems they also need to play or a certain amount of the events and of course they are all over in the Far East

Then there is the Majors

So it looks like going from playing less events and less golf and less travel etc *they will actually be spending a lot more time on the road , away from home and family*

I’m guessing they are going to start to get their flesh of skin from the money they are giving them - wonder what the players think of it
		
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Probably not as much time as people are spending talking about it 😂😂


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## JamesR (Jul 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552658127345950721
Getting down with the kids 🫣


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## BiMGuy (Jul 28, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552658127345950721
Getting down with the kids 🫣
		
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They really have sold their souls.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			They really have sold their souls.
		
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Have they? They did similar videos with the ET when they did the mannequin challenge. Which was class but was just a trend. This is the latest no doubt


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 28, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552658127345950721
Getting down with the kids 🫣
		
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Those guys are just sooooo wacky! 😂

😐🙄


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 28, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Those guys are just sooooo wacky! 😂

😐🙄
		
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Music in the video is from a tune called, 

"You're better off alone". 

😕


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## Beezerk (Jul 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Have they? They did similar videos with the ET when they did the mannequin challenge. Which was class but was just a trend. This is the latest no doubt
		
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Exactly, had it been Rory with some PGA players it would be the best video of all time…👀


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 28, 2022)

Trump hitting bombs in the pro-am. 💣💣👀


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552698240683974656


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Trump hitting bombs in the pro-am. 💣💣👀


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552698240683974656

Click to expand...

🤤


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## RRidges (Jul 28, 2022)

Trump supposedly off 2.8 Index!
That's the swing of a 12-capper, with a tendency to fade, at best! 
They'll have had to rig the rules so he doesn't have to finish any hole if he's going to contribute!


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## IainP (Jul 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the announcements about next year were a bit interesting

There will be 14 LIV events which they need to play - all over the world

Then there is the Asian International Series which is seems they also need to play or a certain amount of the events and of course they are all over in the Far East

Then there is the Majors

So it looks like going from playing less events and less golf and less travel etc they will actually be spending a lot more time on the road , away from home and family

I’m guessing they are going to start to get their flesh of skin from the money they are giving them - wonder what the players think of it
		
Click to expand...

Think most pros average between 23 & 26 a year. If qualified for the majors that goes to 18, so still room for some AT events. Need to find out more about the actual expectation/commitment,  most are reporting "at least some", "several", "numerous" - so not really clear yet.
I recall Reed playing the less golf card, not sure I recall too many others though (but might be my memory!).

Clearly a lot of PR battles have been going on across all sides - it may well be the intention was always around this "International Series", but I can see it being positioned as with PGAT & DPWT going down the suspensions & punishment routes, being a way of offering a "full schedule" to those who want it.

As you say, interesting!


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 28, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Trump supposedly off 2.8 Index!
That's the swing of a 12-capper, with a tendency to fade, at best!
They'll have had to rig the rules so he doesn't have to finish any hole if he's going to contribute!


Click to expand...

Apparently he’s not a bad player, got a solid short game, which we all know, is so important.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apparently he’s not a bad player, got a solid short game, which we all know, is so important.
		
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He is a massive cheater, though and only submits cards when he likes, which are very few of his played rounds. Also known to be generous with gimmes and have some basic problems with maths. Most of the pros who play with him say he is about a 9 handicap.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Trump hitting bombs in the pro-am. 💣💣👀


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552698240683974656

Click to expand...

Prob put himself down for a 2 - understand he is the club champ at the club , prob shot a 61 today


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## RRidges (Jul 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apparently he’s not a bad player, got a solid short game, which we all know, is so important.
		
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Yep. Up and down - straight into his pocket! Zero shots involved.
US Presidents have a tradition of dodgy handicaps/golf. But Trump apparently simply cheats!
http://www.scga.org/blog/13174/every-presidential-golfer-ranked-by-handicap/


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Think most pros average between 23 & 26 a year. If qualified for the majors that goes to 18, so still room for some AT events. Need to find out more about the actual expectation/commitment,  most are reporting "at least some", "several", "numerous" - so not really clear yet.
I recall Reed playing the less golf card, not sure I recall too many others though (but might be my memory!).

Clearly a lot of PR battles have been going on across all sides - it may well be the intention was always around this "International Series", but I can see it being positioned as with PGAT & DPWT going down the suspensions & punishment routes, being a way of offering a "full schedule" to those who want it.

As you say, interesting!
		
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Think the top level pros including majors , wgc prob average around 22 as you say 

I suspect the international series will give them ranking points so they will prob ultimately be Asian Tour members playing LiV events and then any major they qualify for 



Mel Smooth said:



			Apparently he’s not a bad player, got a solid short game, which we all know, is so important.
		
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Apparently he is the yank version of Kim Yong when it comes to scoring when playing golf - ie he puts down whatever he wants and is more like a 18 handicap. Despite him claiming to be champion golfer at all his clubs


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## JamesR (Jul 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the top level pros including majors , wgc prob average around 22 as you say 

I suspect the international series will give them ranking points so they will prob ultimately be Asian Tour members playing LiV events and then any major they qualify for 



Apparently he is the yank version of Kim Yong when it comes to scoring when playing golf - ie he puts down whatever he wants and is more like a 18 handicap. Despite him claiming to be champion golfer at all his clubs
		
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Didn’t he once win a club champs when he was in another part of the world?


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Didn’t he once win a club champs when he was in another part of the world?
		
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In 'Commander in Cheat', Rock Reilly reports that he missed the Club champs at one course because he was at another course. When he got to the first one, he asked what score won, then said 'I scored better than that today - put me down as winner'. 

Reilly also reports an incident where Trump was playing with Mike Tirico, sports commentator, and they were playing a par-5. Tirico had hit a good drive and was going for it in two, and hit what looked like a great shot. Trump got to the green first, and when Tirico arrived, his ball was in the bunker. He played it out, holed out and moved on. On the way to the next tee, Trump's caddie told him that his ball was in the middle of the green, but Trump knocked it into the bunker.


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## JamesR (Jul 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			In 'Commander in Cheat', Rock Reilly reports that he missed the Club champs at one course because he was at another course. When he got to the first one, he asked what score won, then said 'I scored better than that today - put me down as winner'. 

Reilly also reports an incident where Trump was playing with Mike Tirico, sports commentator, and they were playing a par-5. Tirico had hit a good drive and was going for it in two, and hit what looked like a great shot. Trump got to the green first, and when Tirico arrived, his ball was in the bunker. He played it out, holed out and moved on. On the way to the next tee, Trump's caddie told him that his ball was in the middle of the green, but Trump knocked it into the bunker.
		
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Great way to “grow the game”, having cheating scum like him involved!


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## IainP (Jul 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the top level pros including majors , wgc prob average around 22 as you say

I suspect the international series will give them ranking points so they will prob ultimately be Asian Tour members playing LiV events and then any major they qualify for
		
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The world rankings are over a rolling two years and I could only see one top 15 player under 45 events. And that won't include things like the Zurich Classic. 

I was poking around on the OGWR site (passing time in airport) and was surprised to see four events in the last two weeks were 54 hole events with ranking points 😯
Admittedly lower ranked events. So maybe only the team element could be a factor in not awarding points in future?


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Have they? They did similar videos with the ET when they did the mannequin challenge. Which was class but was just a trend. This is the latest no doubt
		
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So the LIV way to grow the game is to do the same sort of videos that the European Tour used to do?  How original.


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## RRidges (Jul 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think with Bubba, LIV now have 5 of the top ten from the PIP that the PGA introduced last year.
They may not be the best players on the tours, but they are the ones that attract media interest.
		
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Media interest is only one of the (5) components of the ranking. But it was introduced as a blatant bribe to deter (future) desertion of (fading) hi-profilers to LIV.
And of course, the winner of the rankings for 2021 was a guy who didn't play a single event!


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Oops
View attachment 43627

Click to expand...

Apparently announced Henrik Stenson as English.
And has previously wished Brandon Grace good luck for The Open - when he wasn't even in the field!
Not such a slick organisation as some would have us think!


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

JamesR said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552658127345950721
Getting down with the kids 🫣
		
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Pretty amateur if you ask me!
Basic error by cameraman wrt positioning for light on faces!
But hey, more Twitter posts = more interest (not!).


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So the LIV way to grow the game is to do the same sort of videos that the European Tour used to do?  How original.
		
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How about this one? Not saying this particular video will grow the game btw, but I can’t say I’ve seen the ET knocking out anything like this. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552858792228003840


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## pokerjoke (Jul 29, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Apparently announced Henrik Stenson as English.
And has previously wished Brandon Grace good luck for The Open - when he wasn't even in the field!
Not such a slick organisation as some would have us think!
		
Click to expand...

Give me one organisation or sporting event that has his the road running and never got any better with experience.
2 events in ,what do people expect?
From the off many have slated Liv,said it wouldn’t take off etc.
Liv is here to stay,will get better and probably be the No1 golfing tour in the future.
It will grow and improve.
All the hypocrites will jump on the bandwagon and life will go on as normal.


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## AussieKB (Jul 29, 2022)

Interesting read.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/l...n/news-story/59ae2d95bb40cfb9099252fe905a6c7e


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## BiMGuy (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How about this one? Not saying this particular video will grow the game btw, but I can’t say I’ve seen the ET knocking out anything like this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552858792228003840

Click to expand...

Is that supposed to be impressive? 

They have billions of dollars to spend and they are knocking out videos that a 12 year old with a decent phone and a TikTok account could produce.


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## Jimaroid (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How about this one? Not saying this particular video will grow the game btw, but I can’t say I’ve seen the ET knocking out anything like this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552858792228003840

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter who did or didn't make that it's still awful.

Slapped together b-roll and a library soundtrack - the classic 5 minute production effort of an intern.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Apparently he’s not a bad player, got a solid short game, which we all know, is so important.
		
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Err he is most reknowed for cheating on and off the golf course 🙈 #trump


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

The key words in this 2023 announcement for me are "Established Team Franchises" from previously just saying teams
That could be suggesting Liv has the blue chip company's lined up to sponsor the teams next year as reported with the likes of Adidas, Red Bull and AT&T? 

I guess we won't find out the 48 players until after the Presidents Cup at the end of September. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552296666417479680


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			The world rankings are over a rolling two years and I could only see one top 15 player under 45 events. And that won't include things like the Zurich Classic.

I was poking around on the OGWR site (passing time in airport) and was surprised to see four events in the last two weeks were 54 hole events with ranking points 😯
Admittedly lower ranked events. So maybe only the team element could be a factor in not awarding points in future?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah have a look around and there are a number of events with reduced rounds etc but as you say lower level of points 

I don’t think 54 holes is the issue - maybe it’s the cuts 🤷‍♂️

Think ultimately they will get some level of ranking points but they will be quite low which will prob explain why they will be looking to play more events on the Asian Tour

Think there was no doubt that the money they were being given wouldn’t just mean playing 8 events a year - they will prob end up being Asian and LiV Tour players then any major they qualify for


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The key words in this 2023 announcement for me are "Established Team Franchises" from previously just saying teams
That could be suggesting Liv has the blue chip company's lined up to sponsor the teams next year as reported with the likes of Adidas, Red Bull and AT&T?

I guess we won't find out the 48 players until after the Presidents Cup at the end of September.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552296666417479680

Click to expand...

Interesting points from Steve Elkington in a video recorded a couple of days back, in that, it looks like the ‘signing on’ pot has been spent, so from 2024 the players of any ability that want to take part in LIV, will have to qualify to do so.

So LIV must have a field they’re happy with, how strong that field is, remains to be seen of course.


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Give me one organisation or sporting event that has his the road running and never got any better with experience.
2 events in ,what do people expect?
From the off many have slated Liv,said it wouldn’t take off etc.
Liv is here to stay,will get better and probably be the No1 golfing tour in the future.
It will grow and improve.
All the hypocrites will jump on the bandwagon and life will go on as normal.
		
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That doesn't change the validity of my comment. Grow and improve? Probably. But for an org with a major PR thrust through Twitter etc, it should not be making obvious foulups as frequently as it does.
I think you should look up the definition of 'hypocrite/hypocrisy'! Don't confuse it with 'hyper critical'!


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## BrianM (Jul 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552672658088775681
Surely everyone can see this as a good thing, getting the youngsters involved 😀


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

BrianM said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552672658088775681
Surely everyone can see this as a good thing, getting the youngsters involved 😀
		
Click to expand...

Greens look a bit brown and that cricket answer was obviously staged for the video, cos nobody in the USA ever plays cricket ;-)

Seriously, I know stuff like this happens all the time, but it's great to see, wherever it is.


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think 54 holes is the issue - maybe it’s the cuts 🤷‍♂️
		
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For me and I suspect for the OWGR, the lack of any sort of published qualifying criteria is the real sticking point.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			For me and I suspect for the OWGR, the lack of any sort of published qualifying criteria is the real sticking point.
		
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I'm not really following that, the OWGR have a set of algorithms based on the rankings in a field  - not sure how relevant it is how the field was made up.
I think they risk being seen as petty if the don't allow any points, and agree with LPhil that more likely they just find ways to keep the total points low and maybe only given to the top few singles scores.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'm not really following that, the OWGR have a set of algorithms based on the rankings in a field  - not sure how relevant it is how the field was made up.
I think they risk being seen as petty if the don't allow any points, and agree with LPhil that more likely they just find ways to keep the total points low and maybe only given to the top few singles scores.
		
Click to expand...

The technical issue is no problem at all. World Ranking Points could be distributed using the same mathematical process.

The issue is in how legitimate it would actually be? If there was an Invitational event, for example, with many of the worlds best players, then I'm guessing a high number of World Ranking Points would be on offer. However, if one or 2 of the world's best players were not invited, they would be at a disadvantage of not being able to get any of these points.

Let's say LIV attracts many high ranking players, and this gives out a decent amount of ranking points in an event. Meanwhile, there is a PGA event running in parallel with a couple of the best players (after also losing some to LIV). Does that mean the LIV players can reap in some decent ranking points, whereas McIlroy or Thomas get less for similar performances?

You can look at reverse of that also. If LIV still only has a sprinkle of the best players, it means any of the vastly inferior players in the small field could put a decent 3 rounds together and earn a decent amount of ranking points. Whereas better players could be playing on the PGA or European Tours in much larger fields, and struggling to keep their card, let alone earn ranking points. 

If LIV was a tour that required qualification, then from a sporting aspect, fair enough. But, it is an Invitational, and it could easily distort the World Rankings if points were offered. It is easier to not award points for such an Invitational, and let the players decide if they still want to compete for their world ranking, or happy to compete in individual events for lots of money


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## Imurg (Jul 29, 2022)

Being an Invitational doesn't stop WR points being awarded.....but some sort of qualification process to get into the event would be needed.
All the Tours, bar LIV so far, have qualifying comps to get on tour in the first place. Then qualification for certain events depends on your World or Tour ranking.
At the moment,  LIV is purely invitational so it's hard to see how ranking points can be offered.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Being an Invitational doesn't stop WR points being awarded.....but some sort of qualification process to get into the event would be needed.
All the Tours, bar LIV so far, have qualifying comps to get on tour in the first place. Then qualification for certain events depends on your World or Tour ranking.
At the moment,  LIV is purely invitational so it's hard to see how ranking points can be offered.
		
Click to expand...

They have qualification from 2024


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They have qualification from 2024
		
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it’s not really qualifying though is it - opening it up to 4 people each year and also making it impossible for some not to be on tour because of the amount of money they are paid still keeps it well within invite only for 99% of the players 

When it all comes together you can see why there is a chance they won’t get ranking points 

But if they do then the amount will be very small 

I don’t see the majors offering up spots from LIV tour events 

So in 12 months time anyone not exempt imo won’t be playing in the majors


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

You tube link if anybody wants to watch.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			it’s not really qualifying though is it - opening it up to 4 people each year and also making it impossible for some not to be on tour because of the amount of money they are paid still keeps it well within invite only for 99% of the players

When it all comes together you can see why there is a chance they won’t get ranking points

But if they do then the amount will be very small

I don’t see the majors offering up spots from LIV tour events

So in 12 months time anyone not exempt imo won’t be playing in the majors
		
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Its a 48 man field, only the top 24 from 2023 are guaranteed to be in the series in 2024. How many from the PGA Tour are guaranteed - is it 125, from a field at an event of 156 or so?

Despite what you think, GN and his legal team will have a very carefully prepared case to justify OWGR points.


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They have qualification from 2024
		
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Into individual events? Or simply into the circus.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Its a 48 man field, only the top 24 from 2023 are guaranteed to be in the series in 2024. How many from the PGA Tour are guaranteed - is it 125, from a field at an event of 156 or so?

Despite what you think, GN and his legal team will have a very carefully prepared case to justify OWGR points.
		
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Sorry but is there not only 4 spots open from  qualifying ? 

With 4 being “relegated” but it can’t be one of the guys they pay to be there or someone they deem that they need to stay up. 

And there are 125 full tour cards - anyone below 125 in the money list loses their full tour card and there are lots more available from the KF tour , ET tour qualifying.

Any player from any recognised tour can attempt to qualify for the PGA tour.

There is also qualifying at times during the week for people to get into events 

Im sure GN will think one thing - but doesn’t mean the OWGR panel will agree with him


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Into individual events? *Or simply into the circus*.
		
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Not sure they'd be interested in reading this thread tbh


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'm not really following that, the OWGR have a set of algorithms based on the rankings in a field  - not sure how relevant it is how the field was made up.
I think they risk being seen as petty if the don't allow any points, and agree with LPhil that more likely they just find ways to keep the total points low and maybe only given to the top few singles scores.
		
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Then why is it part of the OWGR rules,  would be my first point.  Secondly no qualification criteria means that players who are invited have access to points that others don't have.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but is there not only 4 spots open from  qualifying ?

With 4 being “relegated” but it can’t be one of the guys they pay to be there or someone they deem that they need to stay up.

And there are 125 full tour cards - anyone below 125 in the money list loses their full tour card and there are lots more available from the KF tour , ET tour qualifying.

Any player from any recognised tour can attempt to qualify for the PGA tour.

There is also qualifying at times during the week for people to get into events

Im sure GN will think one thing - *but doesn’t mean the OWGR panel will agree with him*

Click to expand...



The OWGR panel will do what will be best for the Majors, ultimately, in the context of this topic - that's what matters. Do you honestly beleive that the majors won't want some of the best players in the world able to play, and bring in the commercial interest that they generate?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The OWGR panel will do what will be best for the Majors, ultimately, in the context of this topic - that's what matters. Do you honestly beleive that the majors won't want some of the best players in the world able to play, and bring in the commercial interest that they generate?
		
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The OWGR will do what they think is best for the sport not just the majors - the OWGR are more than just entry into the majors 

And the majors will be more than fine without a handful of players if they are unable to qualify. 

They certainly won’t be giving them the same level of points as standard tour events. 

As someone has alluded to because of the majority being invited only then it’s not right that events have points when majority of the golfers have no way of entering the event. 

And just because LiV is all about money doesn’t mean the majors will be thinking just about commercial interest 

The qualifying for the majors may change but it won’t be to favour LIV - if anything the chances it could be the other way.


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'm not really following that, the OWGR have a set of algorithms based on the rankings in a field  - not sure how relevant it is how the field was made up.
I think they risk being seen as petty if the don't allow any points, and agree with LPhil that more likely they just find ways to keep the total points low and maybe only given to the top few singles scores.
		
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Well, first LIV has to be invited to participate, which might be tricky given the apparent attitudes of those who make that that decision/invite. There maybe rules - existing or created - that would exclude LIV, particularly the lack of a 36-hole cut. 54 Holes is acceptable for tournaments where 1st place is less than 12 points. So that'll severely limit the points available to LIV events. The obscene LIV prize money is irrelevant within those constraints, as it's position that matters.
It doesn't actually look a very good situation for LIV's OWGR aspirations! So Asian Tour, which Saudi 'owns' could well be the route for those that are hunting points. Even that will be tough as it's not a particularly high ranking tour and the presence of multiple LIV players could work against 'the group'. If they stagger involvement, the pressure on individual performance is magnified.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OWGR will do what they think is best for the sport not just the majors - the OWGR are more than just entry into the majors

And the majors will be more than fine without a handful of players if they are unable to qualify.

They certainly won’t be giving them the same level of points as standard tour events.

*As someone has alluded to because of the majority being invited only then it’s not right that events have points when majority of the golfers have no way of entering the event.*

And just because LiV is all about money doesn’t mean the majors will be thinking just about commercial interest

The qualifying for the majors may change but it won’t be to favour LIV - if anything the chances it could be the other way.
		
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From memory, I think the qualification school will be open to any major winners, top 75 in the world, plus the route through the Asian Tour etc, so there are definitely plenty of ways for golfers to enter the event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			From memory, I think the qualification school will be open to any major winners, top 75 in the world, plus the route through the Asian Tour etc, so there are definitely plenty of ways for golfers to enter the event.
		
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For 3 or 4 spots ? 

So a major winner can only play on the tour if they go through full qualifying yet likes of Howell and Kokrak regardless of performance will play every event because they were invited and paid 

Not really true qualfiying is it


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OWGR will do what they think is best for the sport not just the majors - the OWGR are more than just entry into the majors

And the majors will be more than fine without a handful of players if they are unable to qualify.

They certainly won’t be giving them the same level of points as standard tour events.

As someone has alluded to because of the majority being invited only then it’s not right that events have points when majority of the golfers have no way of entering the event.

And just because LiV is all about money doesn’t mean the majors will be thinking just about commercial interest

The qualifying for the majors may change but it won’t be to favour LIV - if anything the chances it could be the other way.
		
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The majors are not bound to the owgr. The will invite / exempt entry, to whoever they like and according to whatever criteria they define. The concern about the owgr and access to majors is a complete red herring.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

What's the deal with R Fowler ? Anyone know why he hasn't turned Saudi. I would have thought him a prime candidate.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the majors will be more than fine without a handful of players if they are unable to qualify.
		
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 They would be second class major wins, compared to the full monty field ones that have been contested up to now.
But I have no fear on that any major will ever have a sub quality field due to missing players to the Saudis. The will all, always, in all majors, be there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The majors are not bound to the owgr. The will invite / exempt entry, to whoever they like and according to whatever criteria they define. The concern about the owgr and access to majors is a complete red herring.
		
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Right now one of the entry criteria to all the majors is via the world rankings and it’s been that way for decades - that won’t change , it has no need to.

And it’s currently without exemptions the only way for the players on the LIV tour to gain entry into the majors because none of their events have any qualifying status



Backsticks said:



			They would be second class major wins, compared to the full month field ones that have been contested up to now.
But I have no fear on that any major will ever have a sub quality field due to missing players to the Saudis. The will all, always, in all majors, be there.
		
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They won’t be second class wins - just because a handful of players missing won’t mean any win is second class by any stretch.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right now one of the entry criteria to all the majors is via the world rankings and it’s been that way for decades - that won’t change , it has no need to.
		
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It has to if it would otherwise exclude any more than a handful of golfers who should be there. Their whole point is to find the greatest of the great.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It has to if it would otherwise exclude any more than a handful of golfers who should be there. Their whole point is to find the greatest of the great.
		
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It doesn’t have too -those handful still have the chance to qualify for all the majors 🤷‍♂️


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They won’t be second class wins - just because a handful of players missing won’t mean any win is second class by any stretch.
		
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Unless you are beating the world, you aren't really a major winner. I would look on them as not really majors. It would be the end of majors as we know them. The majors themselves can't allow that. It is their raison d'etre. They will all get in. If 20 of the top 30 in the world go Saudi, the criteria will change to give them all invites up Magnolia Drive etc.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It doesn’t have too -those handful still have the chance to qualify for all the majors 🤷‍♂️
		
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A chance isn't good enough. They HAVE to have entry without additional obstacles or reduced chances of being filtered into it. Theoretical access itself would hobble the majors to sub standard tournaments.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			A chance isn't good enough. The HAVE to have entry without additional obstacles or reduced chances of being filtered into it. Theoretical access itself would hobble the majors to sub standard tournaments.
		
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They don’t “have” to have entry at all - just like all the other golfers in the world they “earn” entry - they don’t get any special treatment , the entry is simple - world ranking , exemptions from winning , through a qualifying tournament - no special changes to suit a bunch of golfers who left tours today chase money


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They don’t “have” to have entry at all - just like all the other golfers in the world they “earn” entry - they don’t get any special treatment , the entry is simple - world ranking , exemptions from winning , through a qualifying tournament - no special changes to suit a bunch of golfers who left tours today chase money
		
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And top 20 on the Saudi money list. Then everyone is in. The majors just can't risk any question, on the week of their major "Why is x not here ? Why is y not here ?"


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

People writing that OWGR points are crucial to Liv players and the majors are absolutely right and it happens far quicker than you think.. 

There is data out there now (Just Google it) if Liv Players don't play any OGWR tournaments between now & March 2023 all will be outside the top 100 and most outside the top 150.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			And top 20 on the Saudi money list. Then everyone is in. The majors just can't risk any question, on the week of their major "Why is x not here ? Why is y not here ?"
		
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😂 Top 20 on Saudi Money list 😂😂😂

wont ever happen 😂😂


TheBigDraw said:



			People writing that OWGR points are crucial to Liv players and the majors are absolutely right and it happens far quicker than you think..

There is data out there now (Just Google it) if Liv Players don't play any OGWR tournaments between now & March 2023 all will be outside the top 100 and most outside the top 150.
		
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it is crucial - they aren’t going to get points for these events so I think you’re right that most will miss the majors next year apart from the players who exempt through winning previous majors


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			People writing that OWGR points are crucial to Liv players and the majors are absolutely right and it happens far quicker than you think..

There is data out there now (Just Google it) if Liv Players don't play any OGWR tournaments between now & March 2023 all will be outside the top 100 and most outside the top 150.
		
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That just means the majors will have their exemption criteria amended very quickly. Being outside the top 150 poses no problem to any golfer in the top 50 today. They will be at all majors no matter.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			What's the deal with R Fowler ? Anyone know why he hasn't turned Saudi. I would have thought him a prime candidate.
		
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Maybe for his media & fans, but he's pals with Thomas & Spieth isn't he?
If playing this game, I was surprised Adam Scott wasn't in the first wave.

Feel like GN needs to land some high ranked Ozzies before the year is over..


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			People writing that OWGR points are crucial to Liv players and the majors are absolutely right and it happens far quicker than you think..

There is data out there now (Just Google it) if Liv Players don't play any OGWR tournaments between now & March 2023 all will be outside the top 100 and most outside the top 150.
		
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And then, by definition, they aren't the top players in the world anymore.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			And then, by definition, they aren't the top players in the world anymore.
		
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Or, the OWGR by definition, isn't a true World golf ranking....


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2022)

This is from a few weeks back

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-official-world-golf-ranking-essential-question/?amp=1

Skip down to this part...
"But another LIV executive who has been involved in the OWGR application process and who requested anonymity was willing to discuss how the review process works."


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

Bedminster course looks fantastic.
Would have been a great 2022 USPGA venue with the rough up before it was pulled..


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			And then, by definition, they aren't the top players in the world anymore.
		
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No. They are still the best. Just that particular owgr definition has been rendered flawed, and no longer discerns the worlds best golfer.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 29, 2022)

😁

*Phil Mickelson gets heckled at N.J. LIV Golf event: ‘Do it for the Saudi Royal Family!*’

https://www.nj.com/sports/2022/07/p...f-event-do-it-for-the-saudi-royal-family.html


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

It shows that LIV is achieving its goal already, and Americans are learning to love Saudi and its royal family.  One up LIV.


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It shows that LIV is achieving its goal already, and Americans are learning to love Saudi and its royal family.  One up LIV.
		
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🧐


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 29, 2022)

I don't understand why all the people who are 
anti LIV Tour pro PGA Tour are posting on this thread yet never hear a peep out of them on the Professional golf thread.

Weird


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

saving_par said:



			I don't understand why all the people who are
anti LIV Tour pro PGA Tour are posting on this thread yet never hear a peep out of them on the Professional golf thread.

Weird
		
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Who is “pro PGA Tour” 🤷‍♂️


Why is it always “anti and pro” 

It’s prob the biggest talking point in golf right now and people are talking about it


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

So Bubs confirms he is in. As with Stenson, it further confirms that Saudi is really not making inroads into signing the top golfers, and making do with the past it's that can make the Champions Tour. The Mid Liv Crisis Tour someone mentioned earlier is a good description. It puts itself firmly as a second division Tour. 
Is that where its qualifiers wheeze came from ? It still needs to get its hands on top players. Qualifiers, a late fix for that failure ?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is “pro PGA Tour” 🤷‍♂️


Why is it always “anti and pro” 

It’s prob the biggest talking point in golf right now and people are talking about it
		
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People are talking at each other, there's very little discussion as with most threads on here these days.

General tone of the thread is either anti or pro one Tour or another 🤷‍♂️


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## garyinderry (Jul 29, 2022)

Looks like a fairly poor turn out at this event. 

All the chat was about bringing golf to an area over looked by the PGA tour.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Looks like a fairly poor turn out at this event.

All the chat was about bringing golf to an area over looked by the PGA tour.
		
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LIV statements and reality do not intersect. The line about the team element being the innovation that had captured the imagination of golf fans, took the biscuit. They simply don't know what they are talking about. We do presume Greg knows something about golf. But he must be the only one. Any one else must have come from 10 pin bowling, pop music, or wedding planning. It certainly wasn't golf.


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## 4LEX (Jul 29, 2022)

Nothing sums up "mid life crisis" more than Phil Mickelson right now. Embarrassing to watch.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Nothing sums up "mid life crisis" more than Phil Mickelson right now. Embarrassing to watch.
		
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He does seem to have flipped out all right.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Nothing sums up "mid life crisis" more than Phil Mickelson right now. Embarrassing to watch.
		
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Has he managed to break par yet ?

Must be £200mil plus well spent 

And no matter how bad he plays he gets paid a fortune and won’t get relegated 

He is the poster boy for LIV


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Looks like a fairly poor turn out at this event. 

All the chat was about bringing golf to an area over looked by the PGA tour.
		
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The Portland event was the same on the weekdays and then got a great crowd on the weekend, be interesting to see if it happens here.


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## Backsticks (Jul 29, 2022)

But, but, but, the beauty of the shotgun start ?
People going to a Saudi tournament only have watch four hours golf, not have it go on for a full day, make it a real day out, see golf played over the course, stop for food, sit in a stand for a while, follow a group of interest for a few holes, space it out for 10 hours to make the travel, park and ride bus, and costs worthwhile........shot gun theory is baaaaad for on course spectating.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But, but, but, the beauty of the shotgun start ?
People going to a Saudi tournament only have watch four hours golf, not have it go on for a full day, make it a real day out, see golf played over the course, stop for food, sit in a stand for a while, follow a group of interest for a few holes, space it out for 10 hours to make the travel, park and ride bus, and costs worthwhile........shot gun theory is baaaaad for on course spectating.
		
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Not sure I want to spend 10hrs at a golf event personally apart from The Open. 

Went to the Cazzoo classic on Saturday as its just 30 Mins from me, got there at 1pm, had a nice time, I was all done by 5pm having seen enough and done everything.

Admittingly the field wasn't as strong as this Liv Event and there was no real tented village to go around or other entertainment.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 29, 2022)

Just on a purely golfing level it's great to see Henrik playing well again.
Been through a tough time in the last probably 12-18 months.


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## JamesR (Jul 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552991328639893507


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			LIV statements and reality do not intersect. The line about the team element being the innovation that had captured the imagination of golf fans, took the biscuit. They simply don't know what they are talking about. We do presume Greg knows something about golf. But he must be the only one. Any one else must have come from 10 pin bowling, pop music, or wedding planning. It certainly wasn't golf.
		
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I suspect there'll be announcements to com wrt teams/franchises next season. Until then, I suspect the approach is that if you keep saying the same thing often enough, more folk will believe it! You just need to look at our own news, lobbying and advertising industries to see how that actually works.
Great to see Stenson playing well and that 3-wood is legendary!
A vast improvement on previous efforts wrt commentary. Feherty has slowed it all down nicely - a great acquisition.
I totally agree re the team aspect. It's rubbish, still over-pushed, and the wrong thing for LIV to push imo. I'd bet most on here wouldn't even know how the team scoring works! I can live, just, with the hype of 'community' aspects being pushed. That's no different to what happens at 'normal' tournaments, but PR is an obvious LIV strength. Not many spectators visible. Will see how that changes over the weekend.
Pleased it's on a 'free to view' medium. Again, a likely 'positive' resulting from the inability to arrange broadcast contract(s).


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is “pro PGA Tour” 🤷‍♂️


Why is it always “anti and pro”

It’s prob the biggest talking point in golf right now and people are talking about it
		
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I think it’s the amount of time people are spending talking about it.
Surely there’s more to life to pass the time of day 🤷‍♂️
Just don’t watch it,put your phone down & spend time with your family 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Jul 29, 2022)

saving_par said:



			I don't understand why all the people who are
anti LIV Tour pro PGA Tour are posting on this thread yet never hear a peep out of them on the Professional golf thread.

Weird
		
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Maybe because they (we) are happy with PGA Tour/DPWT and don't feel the need to 'comment' in that thread.


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## Slab (Jul 30, 2022)

I wonder, If a few of the liv guys sign up for the Asia tour will that be the end of ET/Asia tour co-sanctioed events


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. They are still the best. Just that particular owgr definition has been rendered flawed, and no longer discerns the worlds best golfer.
		
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These LIV players are mostly falling down the OWGR rankings, some rather rapidly, and will continue to do so if they only play in exhibition events with a few past-it players and a bunch of unknowns. The fact Stenson is leading after the first round speaks volumes about the quality of field. I see Jediah is also playing pretty consistent golf. 

I wonder if there will come a time when some of these professionals become embarrassed by scoring well over par and earning several years salary for an average person for doing so. Have they no professional pride?

If LIV want other rankings, they are free to set up their own, just as boxing did, so we had up to 4 world heavyweight champions. Maybe one which combines the size of their initial contract with a multiplier for how laughable they're justification for defecting?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2022)

For LIV players, what is their incentive to compete for wins? To win a boat load of cash. If that is what purely motivates them to play well in those LIV events, fair enough. However, if you have already been given tens of millions, if not hundreds, they might be forgiven for not sweating blood to refine their games to be in top top shape for each event. If I won the lottery, I'd probably be a bit more relaxed in my day job (or just quit entirely).

What is the motivation of players on the other tours? For most it is to earn enough money to have a comfortable life, and keep their playing privileges. For all it is to get as high up the rankings as possible, as that opens many doors, or keeps them open. For some it is to try and win the most prestigious events and become part of history. And, if truly successful, then they will benefit from the prize money, and added sponsorship possibly.

So, you'd be forgiven in concluding that normal tour players will work much harder than LIV players, in general, for the sake of their careers. If players on LIV are outcast for long enough, it would be easy to see many of them become almost irrelevant to other golfers. And not just the older LIV guys. It would be interesting to fast forward a year or 2, see where we are. Is LIV still going strong, or does it become apparent fans just can't get enthusiastic about it (barring Mel Smooth) and it fizzle out. How do players like Bryson and Brooks compare against the best players on PGA at that point?


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2022)

Perhaps this article shows why Cameron Smith  didn't need to rush to LIV for security after his great win at The Open 



Mpre likely it's along the lines of this one though - from his 'namesake' Jordan.
https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/...olf-i-dont-understand-why-younger-guys-joined


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			.The fact Stenson is leading after the first round speaks volumes about the quality of field.
		
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Now come on the guy shot 64 -7 round a tough golf course with very tricky green complexes if you got out of position and is only joint leader with Patrick Reed.

Oither notables
Dustin Johnson is - 4 and Brooks Koepka is - 3
Westwood - 2
Garcia and Wolff - 1
Bryson is Level
And pretty much unknown over here Phachara Khongwatmai shot -5, a great round of golf

I think that actually speaks volumes about the field. 

Put tour allegiances to one side and just recognise great golf. 
Henrik absolutely put on a display of golf last night knocking the pin out all the way round and could have been 62 and that's fantastic golf whether it's on the PGA, DP or Liv Tour and deserves to be leading.


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I wonder if there will come a time when some of these professionals become embarrassed by scoring well over par and earning several years salary for an average person for doing so. Have they no professional pride?
		
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Just follow Leftie's progress then!
On the other hand, Stenson seems to have found 'freedom' from it. A stunning round by him. I hope he keeps it going.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

I’d agree with Phil on the age thing, and with all due respect, I feel the views held on this forum support his view.

I found myself watching on my phone yesterday, sat in the bath, doing some washing up, even a little while walking the dogs. Not sure if YouTube is the long term broadcast solution for LIV, but it certainly looks like they want to stream it, add free, which if true, is great news.


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d agree with Phil on the age thing, and with all due respect, I feel the views held on this forum support his view.
View attachment 43643

Click to expand...

What a load of baloney!
That's simply a LIV propaganda sheet!


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d agree with Phil on the age thing, and with all due respect, I feel the views held on this forum support his view.

I found myself watching on my phone yesterday, sat in the bath, doing some washing up, even a little while walking the dogs. Not sure if YouTube is the long term broadcast solution for LIV, but it certainly looks like they want to stream it, add free, which if true, is great news.
View attachment 43643

Click to expand...

What a hypocrite. He says that golf has been struggling over the past 30 years, which is complete rubbish. Golf has boomed over that time. There was that guy, Lion, Panther, whatsisname who seemed to make it popular.

And what is that complete bollox about moving golf through the world. I don't know if Phil (or the person from LIV Golf who drafted his piece) has heard the news, but golf started and continued outside the US. There has been plenty of world golf around for a while, but for a long while, many American players resented Johnny Foreigner coming over and taking their dollars, and many hated going places where they didn't have all the familiar Americanisms, but now they are global explorers? I guess a lot of dollars overcomes insular nationalism.

And all the 'independent contractors' who can pick and choose where and when they play is now giving up a schedule and appearing where you are told to?

Phil may think his special sort of shiny-shirted, middle aged corpulent athleticism may attract young viewers, but he should know they are rather fickle, so he needs a better plan, and Bubba, Stenson, etc aren't it.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Now come on the guy shot 64 -7 round a tough golf course with very tricky green complexes if you got out of position and is only joint leader with Patrick Reed.

Oither notables
Dustin Johnson is - 4 and Brooks Koepka is - 3
Westwood - 2
Garcia and Wolff - 1
Bryson is Level
And pretty much unknown over here Phachara Khongwatmai shot -5, a great round of golf

I think that actually speaks volumes about the field.

Put tour allegiances to one side and just recognise great golf.
Henrik absolutely put on a display of golf last night knocking the pin out all the way round and could have been 62 and that's fantastic golf whether it's on the PGA, DP or Liv Tour and deserves to be leading.
		
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Nice to see somebody discussing the golf 

I tuned in last night was great to see Stenson play well


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Nice to see somebody discussing the golf

I tuned in last night was great to see Stenson play well
		
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There was some great golf played, and the course isn't easy, was it Ortiz who had an uphill shot into a green, looked about 100 yards out of the rough, absolutely gave it everything to chop it out and still came up short. All the courses have been set up long and challenging so far - and a few of the top players at Bedminster were mixing it up at The Open - they are quality golfers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’d agree with Phil on the age thing, and with all due respect, I feel the views held on this forum support his view.

I found myself watching on my phone yesterday, sat in the bath, doing some washing up, even a little while walking the dogs. Not sure if YouTube is the long term broadcast solution for LIV, but it certainly looks like they want to stream it, add free, which if true, is great news.
View attachment 43643

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In regards the streaming will that not come with a subscription charge ? So it then no longer becomes free 

As for Phil Mickleson- he should have just stopped at being given a ton of money - everything after that is self justification, im sure will all remember his rant earlier in the year 

What is the “tried and struggled” bit about 🤷‍♂️

He appeared to have no issues with the PIP money he was given 



TheBigDraw said:



			Now come on the guy shot 64 -7 round a tough golf course with very tricky green complexes if you got out of position and is only joint leader with Patrick Reed.

Oither notables
Dustin Johnson is - 4 and Brooks Koepka is - 3
Westwood - 2
Garcia and Wolff - 1
Bryson is Level
And pretty much unknown over here Phachara Khongwatmai shot -5, a great round of golf

I think that actually speaks volumes about the field.

Put tour allegiances to one side and just recognise great golf.
Henrik absolutely put on a display of golf last night knocking the pin out all the way round and could have been 62 and that's fantastic golf whether it's on the PGA, DP or Liv Tour and deserves to be leading.
		
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Looks like a great score from Stenson , interesting to see if it’s a new lease of life or just a small boost 

Some of the players are high quality golfers and they are going to produce good golf


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Now come on the guy shot 64 -7 round a tough golf course with very tricky green complexes if you got out of position and is only joint leader with Patrick Reed.

Oither notables
Dustin Johnson is - 4 and Brooks Koepka is - 3
Westwood - 2
Garcia and Wolff - 1
Bryson is Level
And pretty much unknown over here Phachara Khongwatmai shot -5, a great round of golf

I think that actually speaks volumes about the field.

Put tour allegiances to one side and just recognise great golf.
Henrik absolutely put on a display of golf last night knocking the pin out all the way round and could have been 62 and that's fantastic golf whether it's on the PGA, DP or Liv Tour and deserves to be leading.
		
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When did Stenson last lead a big event?

Either he has been inspired by this new opportunity to grow the game/insert legitimising excuse of choice, or it is an easier field and course than the PGA Tour usually has. 

Stenson's lowest round this season on the PGA Tour is a 68, his stroke average is 71.4 and out of 11 events (including The Open and Scottish Open), he has missed 6 cuts and has a best finish of T9 in the Zurich pairs event, for 205th on the FedEx Cup ranking.

I know which reason I suspect.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

It's not a good field. High profile recognised names whose hay day is 10 years ago do not a good field make. They make a nostalgia tour.
The key metric is how many players from the world top 40 are there ? Reed, Bryson, DJ, Koepka, Kokrak ? You cannot claim world level golf if that is the height of your offering.

Edit: not that there is anything wrong with going to watch golden oldies play an exhibition tournament. That has its place too. But its not High level elite golf.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			When did Stenson last lead a big event?

Either he has been inspired by this new opportunity to grow the game/insert legitimising excuse of choice, or it is an easier field and course than the PGA Tour usually has.

Stenson's lowest round this season on the PGA Tour is a 68, his stroke average is 71.4 and out of 11 events (including The Open and Scottish Open), he has missed 6 cuts and has a best finish of T9 in the Zurich pairs event, for 205th on the FedEx Cup ranking.

I know which reason I suspect.
		
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Nobody better mention how Will Zalatoris - PGA Golden child, is getting on at the RMC ;-)


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It's not a good field. High profile recognised names whose hay day is 10 years ago do not a good field make. They make a nostalgia tour.
The key metric is how many players from the world top 40 are there ? Reed, Bryson, DJ, Koepka, Kokrak ? You cannot claim world level golf if that is the height of your offering.

Edit: not that there is anything wrong with going to watch golden oldies play an exhibition tournament. That has its place too. But its not High level elite golf.
		
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If you want to see a poor field look at the Hero Open on the DP World Tour.

Sponsors will want better than this, I really fear for the future of this Tour.

Our top players are too busy chasing $$$$$$$ on PGA Tour.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody better mention how Will Zalatoris - PGA Golden child, is getting on at the RMC ;-)
		
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Yes, that shows the gulf in quality between the two tournaments. Zalatoris is a better golfer over the last year than ALL of the ones on the Saudi tour. It highlights the Saudi thing as really second division.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			If you want to see a poor field look at the Hero Open on the DP World Tour.

Sponsors will want better than this, I really fear for the future of this Tour.

Our top players are too busy chasing $$$$$$$ on PGA Tour.
		
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Sure. Agree fully. DP is the third division. But its not a rival to the pgat, its a feeder tour, like the Kornferry with a little added local interest and national opens for Europeans.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody better mention how Will Zalatoris - PGA Golden child, is getting on at the RMC ;-)
		
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-3, comfortably made the cut, doing better than the well fed $200million superstar Phil Mickelson, currently 43rd out of 48, 11 shots behind Stenson after one round.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody better mention how Will Zalatoris - PGA Golden child, is getting on at the RMC ;-)
		
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Why ? What’s the relevance 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why ? What’s the relevance 🤷‍♂️
		
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Young player, rated 13th in the world, one of the future stars of the tour - and he's absolutely nowhere on the leaderboard - not exactly selling the argument that the PGA Tour has all the better, younger players is he?

Infact apart from Tony Finau, and Stuart Cink, the leaderboard is full of names that I couldn't put a face to - and Stuart Cink is old, and therefore irrelevant;-)


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Sure. Agree fully. DP is the third division. But its not a rival to the pgat, its a feeder tour, like the Kornferry with a little added local interest and national opens for Europeans.
		
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And that is a direct consequence of the Tiger effect.

All the money that went into the PGA Tour and all the Top European Tour players went chasing $$$

European Tour is dying on its feet even without LIV. Going to become increasing difficult for young European golfers find their way to the top echelons of the game without going down the US College route and becoming semi yanks ala Rahm.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, that shows the gulf in quality between the two tournaments. Zalatoris is a better golfer over the last year than ALL of the ones on the Saudi tour. It highlights the Saudi thing as really second division.
		
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The Open showed the gulf in quality between the two tours/series, and aside from a handful of players, there isn't one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			If you want to see a poor field look at the Hero Open on the DP World Tour.

Sponsors will want better than this, I really fear for the future of this Tour.

Our top players are too busy chasing $$$$$$$ on PGA Tour.
		
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It’s always the same with events after The Open - the fields are more wide open allowing other card holders to get in and earn points and money to keep their card

There is always a lull around this time year as players rest before the end of season order of merits 

the tours are more than just the top guys- there are 200 plus beiow those guys 

Last week was a perfect example - great win for Ramsey keeping his card plus others getting a boost


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Open showed the gulf in quality between the two tours/series, and aside from a handful of players, there isn't one.
		
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The Open did indeed show the gulf. None of the LIV players actually contended. A few decent finishes from nowhere on the last day, that's about it.

It is laughable to suggest the PGA Tour and LIV are comparable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Young player, rated 13th in the world, one of the future stars of the tour - and he's absolutely nowhere on the leaderboard - not exactly selling the argument that the PGA Tour has all the better, younger players is he?

Infact apart from Tony Finau, and Stuart Cink, the leaderboard is full of names that I couldn't put a face to - and Stuart Cink is old, and therefore irrelevant;-)
		
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It’s one event 🤷‍♂️ - either being a bit silly or just desperate


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The Open did indeed show the gulf. None of the LIV players actually contended. A few decent finishes from nowhere on the last day, that's about it.

*It is laughable to suggest the PGA Tour and LIV are comparable*.
		
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It's not that long ago that Jay Monahon was thinking something along those lines.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s one event 🤷‍♂️ - either being a bit silly or just desperate
		
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So when a LIV player is struggling - it's a sign of how weak the quality of the field is, but when a top PGA Tour player is struggling, it's excused as a one off?

Lets be honest Phil, The PGA Tour is off the golf radar this weekend, And Will Z making up the numbers certainly doesnt help their cause.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's not that long ago that Jay Monahon was thinking something along those lines.
		
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Fact is LIV Tour has much weaker fields than PGA Tour, and they are getting weaker as the LIV players slide further down the rankings.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So when a LIV player is struggling - it's a sign of how weak the quality of the field is, but when a top PGA Tour player is struggling, it's excused as a one off?
		
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Hello, is that the guy who cited one shot where a player couldn't hit the green as evidence it is a tough course? 

I will give you credit for sheer brass neckedness. We can't compete with your brand of male bovine excrement.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So when a LIV player is struggling - it's a sign of how weak the quality of the field is, but when a top PGA Tour player is struggling, it's excused as a one off?

Lets be honest Phil, The PGA Tour is off the golf radar this weekend, And Will Z making up the numbers certainly doesnt help their cause.
		
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Not sure when it was decided that a player struggling in one event is a sign of a weak field 🤷‍♂️ Not seen that 

Have seen people use 12 months or two years worth of results to show players struggling 

And this period is always a quieter period in between the Open and Fed Ex playoffs - the top players will recharge after the majors ( something that won’t matter for LiV players next year ) 

What it does do is help all those that need points or restricted cards or players from KF etc that chance to get some cards in etc ( again something that you can’t see on the LIV )


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s one event 🤷‍♂️ - either being a bit silly or just desperate
		
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Yes, the only Saudi player of Zalatoris level at the moment is DJ.
There unquestionable a big gulf, and you are truly in the LIV alternative facts world Mel if you are seriously believing otherwise. Saudi with take off if a dozen of the top 30 defect after the FedEx. But at the moment, the PGAT holds all the cards, and all the players that determine a tours quality, apart from DJ, Brooks, and Bryson. The players from 50-300 in the world make up the field, and are there to climb the ladder. But they aren't why people watch. If you cannot exceed a half dozen of the world's top 50, then you are second division. It is beyond rational debate to consider otherwise.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Fact is LIV Tour has much weaker fields than PGA Tour, and they are getting weaker as the LIV players slide further down the rankings.
		
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Agree with the first clause.
I don't agree with the second clause. They are just as good. Sliding the rankings does not diminish their golf. It diminishes the rankings.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Agree with the first clause.
I don't agree with the second clause. They are just as good. Sliding the rankings does not diminish their golf. It diminishes the rankings.
		
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The second point is simply a fact. Most of the LIV players were sliding, or plummeting, down the rankings before they joined the LIV Tour. DJ dropped from 2nd to 18th in 6 months. No sign that is changing much for BdC, Koepka and others either. They need to win stuff to reverse it and they haven't won anything recently and will have fewer chances to do so.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The second point is simply a fact. Most of the LIV players were sliding, or plummeting, down the rankings before they joined the LIV Tour. DJ dropped from 2nd to 18th in 6 months. No sign that is changing much for BdC, Koepka and others either. They need to win stuff to reverse it and they haven't won anything recently and will have fewer chances to do so.
		
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It isn't a fact. Their ranking may decrease, but that doesn't mean they are weakening as golfers. They are exactly the same golfer, in the short term, as they were before they defected. Their sliding, simply shows the owgr is no longer representative of the world's golfers.
Their golf determines how good a golfer they are, not the rankings. Tweaking the rules could put me number one. Nobody would believe I am the world's best golfer though.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s always the same with events after The Open - the fields are more wide open allowing other card holders to get in and earn points and money to keep their card

There is always a lull around this time year as players rest before the end of season order of merits 

the tours are more than just the top guys- there are 200 plus beiow those guys 

Last week was a perfect example - great win for Ramsey keeping his card plus others getting a boost
		
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They aren't playing for much money at the Hero Open event, three players will be taking home six figures whilst twenty one players will be taking home six figures in the Rockety thing whatever event.

Sponsors won't hang around long without a decent field.

Tour is becoming half a dozen big events with fillers the rest of the year.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It isn't a fact. Their ranking may decrease, but that doesn't mean they are weakening as golfers. They are exactly the same golfer, in the short term, as they were before they defected. Their sliding, simply shows the owgr is no longer representative of the world's golfers.
Their golf determines how good a golfer they are, not the rankings. Tweaking the rules could put me number one. Nobody would believe I am the world's best golfer though.
		
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I think we are conflating two issue here.

One is the effect of not scoring OWGR points, which will clearly cause a drop. 

The second is the background form.

Most of the drop from players who joined LIV occurred before they joined LIV and were playing a PGA Tour schedule, but their form has not been as good as it was.

DJ, for example, played 10 events on the PGA Tour/major schedule up to The Open (as well as the Saudi event on Asian Tour) and during that time fell from 5th (2nd after last 2021 event) to 16th. He was 15th after the Byron Nelson in May.

Westwood, Casey, Stenson, Garcia, GMac, Bubba, Reed, Schwartzel etc have all been on the slide well before LIV too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			They aren't playing for much money at the Hero Open event, three players will be taking home six figures whilst twenty one players will be taking home six figures in the Rockety thing whatever event.

Sponsors won't hang around long without a decent field.

Tour is becoming half a dozen big events with fillers the rest of the year.
		
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that’s no different than the last 20 years 🤷‍♂️ - prize money has always been bigger in the US

Each tour has events which buffer the bigger ones - it gives other the opportunity to play events

Do people expect the same level of tournament each week ? When would those ranked 125 to 200 play in the tour events

Would also add that right now we are having more pro golf comps to watch than at any other time in the past 10 plus years


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			They aren't playing for much money at the Hero Open event, three players will be taking home six figures whilst twenty one players will be taking home six figures in the Rockety thing whatever event.

Sponsors won't hang around long without a decent field.

Tour is becoming half a dozen big events with fillers the rest of the year.
		
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Professional golf competitions are way overvalued. People can cite poor purses on DP Tour but Ramsey won £250k last week which is nearly 8 times the average UK yearly wage. 

There's people working three jobs to support their family, so I find it hard to sympathise with folk whining about the cost and time involved of being a professional golfer.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 30, 2022)

The actual truth is there are really great Golfers that are great to watch play shooting great scores on great courses on both tours..

And there will always be known players underperforming on both tours because that's the game of golf..


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nobody better mention how Will Zalatoris - PGA Golden child, is getting on at the RMC ;-)
		
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Still better than the best of the LIV players who missed the cut in 2 of his last 5 counting events.


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## AussieKB (Jul 30, 2022)

I have had enough of this thread, it does not matter what one side says the other side says the opposite, the sky is blue....no the sky is red
I just wish both sides could step back and look at it from the other persons perspective, but that is just not going to happen.


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I have had enough of this thread, it does not matter what one side says the other side says the opposite, the sky is blue....no the sky is red
I just wish both sides could step back and look at it from the other persons perspective, but that is just not going to happen.
		
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I don't like LIV Golf, but it is not its existence as such, but the faux brand it is portraying.

Take Richard Bland. He basically said that he didn't have that much top golf left so he may as well make the most of it. I respect that, he is just right to do so. Other players in that late PGA Tour career who don't fancy the Champions Tour, something similar. Jason Kodak said he was planning to scoop up as much money as he could and retire in his mod-40s. That is fine too.

The bits I object to are 

1. the idea that Saudi money is no more tainted than someone who takes sponsorship from a company that does business in Saudi. That is nonsense. This is simply a massive PR campaign with an enormous budget and the players involved are renting their reputations to it.

2. that LIV Golf is trying to grow the game or capture a new young audience. They don't give a toss about either. 

3. players were warned that if they defected "put a tee in the ground" I think it was, they may lose their PGA Tour membership but are now whining when that exact thing happened. They were warned. If they sucked it up and made the move and accepted the consequences, fine. But they want it both ways. They claim to be independent contractors yet seem happy to be employees of LIV Golf and turn up when told to do so. 

4. The idea that LIV Golf is on a par with the PGA Tour. It really isn't even close. 

5. Trump. He is an embarrassment to golf and tarnishes the reputation of all he touches.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I have had enough of this thread, it does not matter what one side says the other side says the opposite, the sky is blue....no the sky is red
I just wish both sides could step back and look at it from the other persons perspective, but that is just not going to happen.
		
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I guess everyone has a breaking point, yours came after 244 pages of comments on this thread


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Young player, rated 13th in the world, one of the future stars of the tour - and he's absolutely nowhere on the leaderboard - not exactly selling the argument that the PGA Tour has all the better, younger players is he?

Infact apart from Tony Finau, and Stuart Cink, the leaderboard is full of names that I couldn't put a face to - and Stuart Cink is old, and therefore irrelevant;-)
		
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In fact, the entirely contra argument could be applied - that it actually _shows the strength of the PGA Tour_!
A slightly off-peak performance by even a top player and there's a load of players on the PGA Tour ready to take advantage of the opportunity! And your inability to recognise much of the leaderboard simply shows the amount of talent that exists on TPGAT.
That's diametrically opposite to the LIV setup, where even uncompetitive players like Mickelson will still get paid a huge amount, simply for attending.
It appears Lefty didn't have the best of starts either...https://www.golfwrx.com/689558/phil...m_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=GolfWRX.com


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## Barking_Mad (Jul 30, 2022)

Currently 2.3k watching live on YouTube.


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## IainP (Jul 30, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Currently 2.3k watching live on YouTube.
		
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What do you actually mean by "watching live"?
(Tee off is in approx 40 minutes)


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## RRidges (Jul 30, 2022)

Not very many spectators in evidence.
Has the association with Trump put them off?


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Yes. And they were giving them away for free. Still, everyone is really stoked about the team component, so thats good fake news. So into it, they wont even go along for free.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 30, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Not very many spectators in evidence.
Has the association with Trump put them off?
		
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Aligning with Trump imo is a huge error

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment...9.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr


*Lynch: The marriage of LIV Golf and Donald Trump is the stuff schemes are made of*
Eamon Lynch
Sat, July 30, 2022, 3:51 PM·5 min read
In this article:







Donald Trump
President of the United States from 2017 to 2021






So much of the commentary about LIV Golf has focused on what it is not—as in, not a conventional tour, not a familiar schedule, not 72 holes, not a regular tee time format, not requiring good play for good pay, not on broadcast television, not well-attended by fans and not deterred by mass executions. Only with its third tournament, held this week, was it thrown into sharp relief what LIV actually is. Not for the first time, true character was revealed courtesy of an embrace by the baby-carrot fingers of Donald J. Trump.

LIV’s event at Trump National G.C. in Bedminster, N.J. was greeted with dignified outrage by families of those killed in the September 11 terrorist attacks. They pointed to a U.S. intelligence report declassified in 2021 that suggested Saudi links to the atrocity went far beyond what was previously known — financing Al-Qaeda, spawning 15 of the 19 hijackers — to include government figures from the Kingdom meeting and aiding the terrorists on U.S. soil. Yet when asked about the families’ protest, the former president offered this: “Nobody’s gotten to the bottom of 9/11, unfortunately.”

The comment exposed how Trump is utterly devoid of honor, but it also illuminated why he is perfectly suited to LIV Golf. Their shared parallels are as plentiful as they are unflattering.

Start with the art of obfuscation, practiced at every LIV press conference as both executives and players prevaricate about ongoing abuses by their benefactors. Their evasions on human rights issues and the bonesaw dismemberment of a regime critic are akin with Trump’s absolving the Saudis of responsibility for the murder of almost 3,000 Americans. The requirement of those in the pay of the Crown Prince is always to downplay, deflect, dissemble, deceive, but never denounce.

Then there’s protecting the grift, doing whatever is necessary to ensure the pocketing of other people’s money continues unimpeded. Both LIV and Trump Inc. are taking MBS for a dupe. While Trump collects fees to host tournaments, his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, received $2 billion for his new private equity firm from the Saudi government’s Public Investment Fund, despite objections by the Fund’s advisors over the merits of the investment. At least Trump and Kushner earned the regime’s favor by providing air cover after the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Accounting for the Fund’s enormous payments to effete golfers is a tougher ask.

Which leads to the inevitable hornswoggle, the suckering of the credulous with talk of a groundbreaking new commodity that feels more like a revenue play for guys whose liquidity can no longer finance their narcissism. The brands of Trump and LIV Golf’s CEO Greg Norman are their names, which they have appended to everything from airlines to steaks. If you’re to persuade a fresh investor to subsidize your swashbuckling self-image, you’d best have new product to pitch. Golf is their means to that end.

Both men are adept at using personal grievances as professional fuel.
Trump’s list of perceived injustices is longer than the Beijing phone book and includes the PGA Tour (for leaving his Doral Resort in 2016), the PGA of America (for taking the 2022 PGA Championship from his New Jersey course to Oklahoma after the January 6 sacking of the Capitol), and the R&A (for not taking the Open back to Turnberry while his name is above the door).

Norman’s well-documented resentment at the Tour dates back decades and is rapidly expanding to include those he deems insufficiently welcoming of his new Saudi-funded venture, like the major championships and the Official World Golf Ranking. No gripe is too petty to go unvoiced at LIV and that has emboldened its players to speak out about the harsh exploitation they endured, like Phil Mickelson with his media rights and Sergio Garcia with his penalty drops.

A common side effect of proximity to Trump and LIV is reputational ruin. Many a man has had his name tarnished by association with 45 and now golfers watch as their hard-earned prestige is diminished, not by the naked money grab but rather by the disingenuous equivocations that are a job requirement when you work for the Saudis. Take Paul Casey, once an admired UNICEF ambassador who refused to compete in Saudi Arabia but who was mute this week when asked about abuses by those whose check he cashed. Next up: Bubba Watson. He adopted two children and is a passionate advocate for the cause, but will one day have to reconcile that with working for a state that has cruelly made adoption illegal.

What LIV Golf ultimately showcased this week is something Trump long ago mastered: the art of theater, of presenting a masquerade to the dissatisfied masses, of promising disruption and reform that it is poorly positioned to deliver upon.
“Our success is a direct result of knowing how to market a brand and having the right people representing the brand,” Norman once gushed in his default corporate-speak. He couldn’t have found more appropriate people to represent the LIV brand than those he assembled this week. It was almost enough to make one pity the Crown Prince whose purse is being chiseled by all of them. Almost.


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## Backsticks (Jul 30, 2022)

Yes. Why the association with Trump? They didnt need him. Another sign that it really is a badly led organisation, with no judgement, let alone cold calculation of what they should be doing to succeed. The Trump association is just shooting themselves in the foot yet again. Surely they want to court support, not give people yet another reason to loath what they are about. As I mentioned before, it would not surprise me that GN has a day of reckoning with the sheiks behind it, and it will be hard to justify that he is doing a good job.


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## Orikoru (Jul 30, 2022)

Just incredible that Stenson is actually winning after all the controversy of him signing. You couldn't script it any better. 😆


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 30, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Just incredible that Stenson is actually winning after all the controversy of him signing. You couldn't script it any better. 😆
		
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I know he’s had the captaincy stripped for the RC, but is he allowed to get the bats out and tee it up? God knows they could need him. 🤔😂


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

Not playing badly for a guy with an OWGR of 173! 
Played a pretty solid round today - a couple of glitches notwithstanding. 
I'd like to see him win it, but think DJ has other ideas.
Still way too much emphasis on the team aspect by some commentators though.


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## Backsticks (Jul 31, 2022)

It highligts the poor quality 9f tge field against him. Take out the best of the 172 golfers ranked higher than him, well of course his chances of winning improve. Second division golfers, who cannot stay with the level in the first division, are much more at home if actually playing in the second division.


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It highligts the poor quality 9f tge field against him. Take out the best of the 172 golfers ranked higher than him, well of course his chances of winning improve. Second division golfers, who cannot stay with the level in the first division, are much more at home if actually playing in the second division.
		
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There's still a couple of dozen in the field ranked above him. And I don't believe they are all 2nd division players! Where would you actually draw that '2nd rate' line? Top 100?


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 31, 2022)

When you have been top 10 in the world and an Open Champion and then find yourself ranked 173 does not mean there are 172 Golfers that are better at golf than you.

That top 10 golfer is still in there and form just needs to be found again and tthen confidence grows. 

As the saying goes class is permanent and form is temporary. 

He has played class golf in the last 2 days and it's great to see one of Europe's finest back playing great golf after a tough time over the past 12-18 months on the course. 
See if it all holds up going for the win in the final round.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			When you have been top 10 in the world and an Open Champion and then find yourself ranked 173 does not mean there are 172 Golfers that are better at golf than you.

That top 10 golfer is still in there and form just needs to be found again and tthen confidence grows.

As the saying goes class is permanent and form is temporary.

He has played class golf in the last 2 days and it's great to see one of Europe's finest back playing great golf after a tough time over the past 12-18 months on the course.
See if it all holds up going for the win in the final round.
		
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Really, by that analysis, Jack Nicklaus is still the best player, then. Gary Player isn't far behind. I saw him at Bearwood Lakes recently. 

Look at Stenson's playing record for the past year, and the conclusion he is playing a course that is easier to score on is inescapable. Although, to be fair, Phil Mickelson might disagree. 

Stenson's last win was at the Scando mixed event. It had a strength of field (18) somewhere around a decent Korn Ferry Tour event, and he was a presenting host, so he may have made a special effort. Most PGA Tour events have a SOF in the several hundreds, most DPWT events in the 100-200 range.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Really, by that analysis, Jack Nicklaus is still the best player, then. Gary Player isn't far behind. I saw him at Bearwood Lakes recently.

Look at Stenson's playing record for the past year, and the conclusion he is playing a course that is easier to score on is inescapable. Although, to be fair, Phil Mickelson might disagree.

Stenson's last win was at the Scando mixed event. It had a strength of field (18) somewhere around a decent Korn Ferry Tour event, and he was a presenting host, so he may have made a special effort. Most PGA Tour events have a SOF in the several hundreds, most DPWT events in the 100-200 range.
		
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So there are 1034 better golfers than Tiger Woods in the world right now? 
I bet if we started a separate thread on that, you’d get a few disagreeing with you.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So there are 1034 better golfers than Tiger Woods in the world right now?
I bet if we started a separate thread on that, you’d get a few disagreeing with you.
		
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Well, in your opinion, who are the best players, then. List a few (you don't need to go as far as number 1034). 

As even you know, the OWGR measures performance but also appearances, so the fact Tiger is not playing much hurts his scores. For players with a decent frequency of playing, it reflects their performance. It is entirely mathematical, so no judgements are involved. So Stenson is indeed fairly ranked where he sits, and has a list of results to justify it. Injured and occasional players are ranked unfairly low, but if Tiger pitched up tomorrow at a PGA Tour event, he would not be remotely close to the top of a list of likely winners, nor will ever be again.


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## Backsticks (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So there are 1034 better golfers than Tiger Woods in the world right now?
I bet if we started a separate thread on that, you’d get a few disagreeing with you.
		
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You need to cut out this alternative truth type spin. Tiger hasn't played, and the owgr fails in accurately assessing his level. Like it will now also for DJ and Bryson. But 173 dies represent Stenson over the last year. He is no way the top 10 golfer or Open winner standard. He is way below it. But can still nose to the front of a field if it is of low enough standard


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## Backsticks (Jul 31, 2022)

RRidges said:



			There's still a couple of dozen in the field ranked above him. And I don't believe they are all 2nd division players! Where would you actually draw that '2nd rate' line? Top 100?
		
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Yes, a couple of dozen. That's a weak field then. Golf doesn't work like sports like tennis, where the better player beats the lesser play almost all the time. As well as the level of the golfer  Stenson is competing against, the number of golfers better than him is crucial. As pointed out, when he has played full field he is far from the level of player he was. 173 actually. So give him only a handful of serious players to challenge him, and of course he has a better chance of getting to the top of the leaderboard - its not a very high climb !


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, in your opinion, who are the best players, then. List a few (you don't need to go as far as number 1034).

As even you know, the OWGR measures performance but also appearances, so the fact Tiger is not playing much hurts his scores. For players with a decent frequency of playing, it reflects their performance. It is entirely mathematical, so no judgements are involved. So Stenson is indeed fairly ranked where he sits, and has a list of results to justify it. Injured and occasional players are ranked unfairly low, but if Tiger pitched up tomorrow at a PGA Tour event, he would not be remotely close to the top of a list of likely winners, nor will ever be again.
		
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So what are we saying then? The OWGR rankings aren’t accurate because they don’t take into account players who aren’t competing in qualifying events?

In that case, it proves the point that LIV players should get OWGR points, if you want to maintain a true ranking of the best players in the world. If tiger can be exempted for not having the opportunity to pick up points due to injury, then so can BDC, DJ etc, if they aren’t getting OWGR points on LIV.


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## Springveldt (Jul 31, 2022)

So what did a fan say to PReed to get thrown out?

Also, great to see Stenson return to form just in time to trouser $4M. I love watching Henrik when he’s on form, one of the best sights in golf is him hitting his mid irons.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So there are 1034 better golfers than Tiger Woods in the world right now?
I bet if we started a separate thread on that, you’d get a few disagreeing with you.
		
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I'd say more like 2500 - at least in a 72 hole event!


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what are we saying then? The OWGR rankings aren’t accurate because they don’t take into account players who aren’t competing in qualifying events?

In that case, it proves the point that LIV players should get OWGR points, if you want to maintain a true ranking of the best players in the world. If tiger can be exempted for not having the opportunity to pick up points due to injury, then so can BDC, DJ etc, if they aren’t getting OWGR points on LIV.
		
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If LIV wants to participate in OWGR, it needs to conform to the rules of participation. It doesn't currently. Therefore, any approach should simply be rejected as a 'non-conforming tour'. If players want to maintain their OWGR, then they should play on a conforming tour and to conforming rules. They appear to have that option, but decide not to. That's a personal decision that they are entitled to make, but must accept the consequences.


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 31, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			So what did a fan say to PReed to get thrown out?

Also, great to see Stenson return to form just in time to trouser $4M. I love watching Henrik when he’s on form, one of the best sights in golf is him hitting his mid irons.
		
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I see the guy that shouted out “Do it for the Saudi Royal Family” to Mickelson was actually the guy from The Good Liars - who are internet pranksters, they do this kind of thing pretty regularly - obviously for the attention it brings to their social media.

On Stenson, he hasn’t won much money for quite a few years now, and I guess the pressure is now off which may have given him the opportunity to focus on his game this weekend. Great to see.


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## Green Man (Jul 31, 2022)

I’m excited to see if Majestics GC can hunt down the 4 Aces GC today. The teams are great. Can’t wait for next year when the teams won’t change.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			On Stenson, he hasn’t won much money for quite a few years now, and I guess the pressure is now off which may have given him the opportunity to focus on his game this weekend. Great to see.
		
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Demonstrating that the description of it as a 'circus' is appropriate.


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Really, by that analysis, Jack Nicklaus is still the best player, then. Gary Player isn't far behind. I saw him at Bearwood Lakes recently.

Look at Stenson's playing record for the past year, and the conclusion he is playing a course that is easier to score on is inescapable. Although, to be fair, Phil Mickelson might disagree.

Stenson's last win was at the Scando mixed event. It had a strength of field (18) somewhere around a decent Korn Ferry Tour event, and he was a presenting host, so he may have made a special effort. Most PGA Tour events have a SOF in the several hundreds, most DPWT events in the 100-200 range.
		
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Can you not just acknowledge Stenson is playing great golf right now round a tough course.. 

Tony Finau played great golf last week, I love his gsme and was great to watch  also🏌️

Its a simple yes and no answer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			When you have been top 10 in the world and an Open Champion and then find yourself ranked 173 does not mean there are 172 Golfers that are better at golf than you.

That top 10 golfer is still in there and form just needs to be found again and tthen confidence grows.

As the saying goes class is permanent and form is temporary.

He has played class golf in the last 2 days and it's great to see one of Europe's finest back playing great golf after a tough time over the past 12-18 months on the course.
See if it all holds up going for the win in the final round.
		
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You can only hold your hands up and say that Stenson is playing very clearly. He is a superb player who has struggled for a while and maybe the move with give him a bit of boost without the added pressure etc


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## IainP (Jul 31, 2022)

Think I've lost track of what the arguments are 🥴

Right now, I'd say it's clear that the PGAT events where the top guys turn up are the strongest fields - but there aren't many of those. It's no surprise the liv gang aligned this year's events with the weaker PGAT events.
Fear for the DPWT, may have posted this before
https://m.independent.ie/sport/golf...m-will-cause-devastating-damage-41780973.html

Like some recent posts, I've been enjoying watching some good golf played wherever  - entertainment at the end if the day.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			...
Fear for the DPWT, may have posted this before
https://m.independent.ie/sport/golf...m-will-cause-devastating-damage-41780973.html

Like some recent posts, I've been enjoying watching some good golf played wherever  - entertainment at the end if the day.
		
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I agree that it's not good news for DPWT. But that's actually reality. Nevertheless, a player (Ryan Fox for example) can earn a good living (at about #50 OWGR currently) on the DPWT, but to go up World rankings, performing well on the PGAT will be essential.


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## howbow88 (Jul 31, 2022)

It is amusing that there have been LIV fans who have been saying 'leave the politics aside, this is about the golf, etc.' And then LIV this weekend has turned into a Donald Trump rally. Dear oh dear - why on earth did they think he was a good guy to get on board?


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 31, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			It is amusing that there have been LIV fans who have been saying 'leave the politics aside, this is about the golf, etc.' And then LIV this weekend has turned into a Donald Trump rally. Dear oh dear - why on earth did they think he was a good guy to get on board?
		
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He owns the course, and plenty more quality courses where LIV will feature. 
Can’t say it bothers me, the guy is 76 years old and out there enjoying the game.  Kudos to him for that.


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## howbow88 (Jul 31, 2022)

He owns some epic venues (unfortunately) so I understand why they would want to play at some of them - Royal Aberdeen and Turnberry in particular. But this isn't some old bloke out there enjoying himself. He is using this as a platform to make another run at being President. That's completely bonkers and LIV should not be getting on board with this.


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## JamesR (Jul 31, 2022)

Good to see Mickleson Is even against the PGA tour’s tagline.
“LIV over Par”


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			He owns some epic venues (unfortunately) so I understand why they would want to play at some of them - Royal Aberdeen and Turnberry in particular. But this isn't some old bloke out there enjoying himself. He is using this as a platform to make another run at being President. That's completely bonkers and LIV should not be getting on board with this.
		
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While he does own Turnberry, so there goes any chance of having The Open there for a long time, he doesn't own Royal Aberdeen, He did, however build Trump Aberdeen though. Not without considerable objection from locals.
There's an interesting article here..https://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-trump-golf-resorts-lose-millions-dollars-every-year-2021-5


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He owns the course, and plenty more quality courses where LIV will feature.
Can’t say it bothers me, the guy is 76 years old and out there enjoying the game.  Kudos to him for that.
		
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A mistake playing at Trump courses imo. Though definitely an act that will get publicity, which may well be the real reason - in the 'any publicity is good publicity' approach. And, excusing a slight brush with politics, Trump is still very popular amongst the die-hard right that is the core of the GOP!


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Can you not just acknowledge Stenson is playing great golf right now round a tough course..

Tony Finau played great golf last week, I love his gsme and was great to watch  also🏌️

Its a simple yes and no answer?
		
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Sure, he is playing great golf, but he is benefitting from a weak field. I don't know how tough the course is compared to typical PGA Tour venues.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He owns the course, and plenty more quality courses where LIV will feature.
Can’t say it bothers me, the guy is 76 years old and out there enjoying the game.  Kudos to him for that.
		
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Trump is unspeakably vulgar, obsessed with making money and utterly amoral. Some would say he is therefore the perfect partner for LIV Golf.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what are we saying then? The OWGR rankings aren’t accurate because they don’t take into account players who aren’t competing in qualifying events?

In that case, it proves the point that LIV players should get OWGR points, if you want to maintain a true ranking of the best players in the world. If tiger can be exempted for not having the opportunity to pick up points due to injury, then so can BDC, DJ etc, if they aren’t getting OWGR points on LIV.
		
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Proves nothing of the sort. The players chose to play non-ranking eligible events. No different if they chose to play corporate events or made for TV spectaculars. LIV Golf can set up its own ranking anytime it likes. The OWGR can tell them to do a large one.


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Can you not just acknowledge Stenson is playing great golf right now round a tough course..

Tony Finau played great golf last week, I love his gsme and was great to watch  also🏌️

Its a simple yes and no answer?
		
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He - and DJ - are playing considerably better golf than the rest of the field. That is all that can be gleaned from the results, though Bedminster was of sufficient quality to be due to hold this year's PGA - under a 2014 agreement that was pulled by USPGA (not The PGA Tour) in January this year. There's still potential, as in any golf tournament, for the lurkers, such as Reed and Gooch to make a charge.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2022)

RRidges said:



			He - and DJ - are playing considerably better golf than the rest of the field. That is all that can be gleaned from the results, though Bedminster was of sufficient quality to be due to hold this year's PGA - under a 2014 agreement that was pulled by USPGA (not The PGA Tour) in January this year. There's still potential, as in any golf tournament, for the lurkers, such as Reed and Gooch to make a charge.
		
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Trump Bedminster would likely have had some specific set-up instructions from the PGA Of America, maybe some course alterations or elements of a composite course. You can't assume the course was set up to PGA Championship standard this week - it very probably was not.


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Trump Bedminster would likely have had some specific set-up instructions from the PGA Of America, maybe some course alterations or elements of a composite course. You can't assume the course was set up to PGA Championship standard this week - it very probably was not.
		
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I agree, and even inferred that in my post - for those without blinkers. Green speeds are about the only attribute to be similar. Pin placements would likely have been quite different.


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## Reemul (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Trump Bedminster would likely have had some specific set-up instructions from the PGA Of America, maybe some course alterations or elements of a composite course. You can't assume the course was set up to PGA Championship standard this week - it very probably was not.
		
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Can I ask how you know it very probably was not, I hope your medical information does not come from the same source of knowledge.


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## RRidges (Jul 31, 2022)

Reemul said:



			Can I ask how you know it very probably was not, I hope your medical information does not come from the same source of knowledge.
		
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I would suspect 'common sense' would be the most likely reason. Even I have sufficient of that to realise The PGA basically takes over a course and sets it up specifically for 'their' tournament! Beth Page Black was certainly set up a lot harder than when I played it - and it was incredibly tough enough then!
I trust you realise there's a significant difference between 'occupation' and 'recreation'.
Does your club set Club Champ course up as per normal comps? None of mine, in 3 different countries, have!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 31, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553557306696245253


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## IainP (Jul 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I agree that it's not good news for DPWT. But that's actually reality. Nevertheless, a player (Ryan Fox for example) can earn a good living (at about #50 OWGR currently) on the DPWT, but to go up World rankings, performing well on the PGAT will be essential.
		
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He's done well. Time will tell, I think the article was suggesting the risk that the "can", may become "used to".
Here's his recent top ranking points & the SoF earned in

24.0    70
16.8  126
14.4    63
12.0    46


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## JamesR (Jul 31, 2022)

Just noticed Charley Hoffman at the Rocket mortgage.
Wasn’t he one of the Saudi tour’s biggest cheerleaders in the early days ?


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## howbow88 (Jul 31, 2022)

RRidges said:



			While he does own Turnberry, so there goes any chance of having The Open there for a long time, he doesn't own Royal Aberdeen, He did, however build Trump Aberdeen though. Not without considerable objection from locals.
There's an interesting article here..https://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-trump-golf-resorts-lose-millions-dollars-every-year-2021-5

Click to expand...

That was the one I meant. I watched the film and it wasn't cool. It was proper embarrassing that the SNP just bent over and let Trump do whatever he wanted.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/28/sports/golf/donald-trump-liv-bedminster.html


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## Mel Smooth (Jul 31, 2022)

Gonna be close between the Majesticks and the 4 Aces this one. 👍


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## Green Man (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Gonna be close between the Majesticks and the 4 Aces this one. 👍
		
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Euros v Americans. It’s like the Ryder Cup but just a bit better.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Gonna be close between the Majesticks and the 4 Aces this one. 👍
		
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Who give a toss about the manufactured rubbish team comp! The huge difference in prize money between winning individual and winning team reflects the REAL attitude, so it's just a differentiating gimmick!  And likely just another shill post!
And Paul Casey is just embarrassing in his promotion of it!


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## Green Man (Jul 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Who give a toss about the manufactured rubbish team comp! The huge difference in prize money between winning individual and winning team reflects the REAL attitude, so it's just a differentiating gimmick!  And likely just another shill post!
		
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I’m interested it adds another element to the comp. Majesticks just pulled one back. Now 2 behind. 👍


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Green Man said:



			I’m interested it adds another element to the comp. Majesticks just pulled one back. Now 2 behind. 👍
		
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Another shill? Mel has become a bit too obvious!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 31, 2022)

Green Man said:



			Euros v Americans. *It’s like the Ryder Cup but just a bit better.*

Click to expand...

Fair play for the humour 😂😂👍


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## Green Man (Jul 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Another shill? Mel has become a bit too obvious!
		
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So you insult people who have a different opinion. 
Your probably watching telling your self it’s rubbish. 
I can’t work out why you comment and waste your time on something you don’t like. 
🔔🔚


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 31, 2022)

Green Man said:



			So you insult people who have a different opinion.
Your probably watching telling your self it’s rubbish.
I can’t work out why you comment and waste your time on something you don’t like.
🔔🔚
		
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So insulting him makes it better ? 
Agree to disagree and move on 
@Foxholer please take note


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

I've had to turn the sound off!
Just too much drivel about the team comp!
I love watching Matt Wolff's swing though!


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## TheBigDraw (Jul 31, 2022)

Not been a fan of the team aspect so far  but Strangely find myself pulling for the Majestics to win this because of the European team flavour. 

Henrik still playing great, got my fingers crossed for him here with 4 to go 🤞


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## Backsticks (Jul 31, 2022)

I don't think they are doing themselves any good with thehea y  team push from commentators and press statements. It's patent nonsense. No one likes it. Yes, NO one. They are really undermining the credibility of it as real sport, making it sound like It's A Knockout does golf. It's pathetic.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I don't think they are doing themselves any good with thehea y  team push from commentators and press statements. It's patent nonsense. No one likes it. Yes, NO one. They are really undermining the credibility of it as real sport, making it sound like It's A Knockout does golf. It's pathetic.
		
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I can't remember hearing Feherty mentioning the team format at all.
On the other hand, his fellow commentators have been pushing it like crazy!


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2022)

Excellent result.
Now if only they stop pushing the daft team format!


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 1, 2022)

Made up for Henrik, played superb golf and great win.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 1, 2022)

Stick it to the man Henrik. 

Well played fella. 🤜


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553872186146004992


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## Springveldt (Aug 1, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553864924606173184


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## timd77 (Aug 1, 2022)

Has-been beats small field of has-beens.


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## Backsticks (Aug 1, 2022)

And middle ranker cashed big cheque for phoning it in.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 1, 2022)

timd77 said:



			Has-been beats small field of has-beens.
		
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Actually Darren Clarke won that event last week 😉🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2022)

Springveldt said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553864924606173184


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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553868204786810881
It’s just mental - being that poor yet walking away with a couple of mil - plus whatever appearance money he is getting


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## Backsticks (Aug 1, 2022)

Its just exhibition golf. It isn't really sport.


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## timd77 (Aug 1, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Actually Darren Clarke won that event last week 😉🤣
		
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At least that one’s acknowledged as being for seniors and players no longer able to compete with the elite…


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## Kaz (Aug 1, 2022)

It's all got pretty depressing.

IMO Saudi Arabia is one of the most despicable regimes on the planet and they set these events up for the sole purpose of laundering their reputation. Just as they do with other sports like F1, boxing and also now moving in on English football.

The multi-millionaire golfers who have switched from the tours in which they made their millions and in which they could have continued to make millions deserve all the opprobrium that has been aimed at them and more. These guys are self-centered assholes who don't give a damn about anyone else. I have slightly more sympathy for some of the lesser lights who joined. Andy Ogiltree, for example, a talented golfer who looks to be not quite good enough to make it decided to cash in while there was money on offer. Still taking the dirty money but clearly a harder decision to turn it down when you're not financially comfortable. I also read an interview with a guy, whose name I have sadly forgotten, who has been playing on the Asian tour and he said he's always wondered how his game would stack up against PGA tour players and it looked like this would be his opportunity to find out. I get that and I'm sure the money doesn't hurt either.

What I am finding dispiriting is that, already, the sports washing is working. I'm a bit golf obsessed so I read various media outlets, listen to podcasts etc and already the criticism of where the funding is coming from has almost entirely stopped. Now it's either ignored altogether or a token reference is made. Sadly, Golf Monthly, appears particularly complicit with its content. One of the podcasts I regularly listen to, in their most recent episode, even turned their passing comment on the treatment of women in SA into a joke. I somehow doubt they'd be laughing if it was a matriarchal society that considered the men to be property.

A lot of the players they've signed were guys I didn't particularly care for but it's harder to reconcile with players I once admired and rooted for. Gmac, Poulter, Stenson, Westwood, Casey etc. Plenty of fans won't care but these are players I have lost all respect for. Stenson probably the worst given his about face on the promises he made when taking on the Ryder Cup captaincy and his recent comments as if the whole world didn't know he couldn't be RC captain if he joined liv.

The latest event has already provided all the evidence ever needed as to why the Open can never return to Turnberry while Trump owns it as he turned up to preside over the event which then started to look increasingly like one of his rallies with the right wing chanting that was reported. Golf has a bad enough image without fostering closer ties with MBS and Trump.

Looks like liv will be around for as long as that regime are prepared to pump dirty money into it and golf is all the worse for it. Kudos to those players with a conscience who have refused to be swayed. Those are the guys to admire.


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## JamesR (Aug 1, 2022)

Kaz said:



			It's all got pretty depressing.

IMO Saudi Arabia is one of the most despicable regimes on the planet and they set these events up for the sole purpose of laundering their reputation. Just as they do with other sports like F1, boxing and also now moving in on English football.

The multi-millionaire golfers who have switched from the tours in which they made their millions and in which they could have continued to make millions deserve all the opprobrium that has been aimed at them and more. These guys are self-centered assholes who don't give a damn about anyone else. I have slightly more sympathy for some of the lesser lights who joined. Andy Ogiltree, for example, a talented golfer who looks to be not quite good enough to make it decided to cash in while there was money on offer. Still taking the dirty money but clearly a harder decision to turn it down when you're not financially comfortable. I also read an interview with a guy, whose name I have sadly forgotten, who has been playing on the Asian tour and he said he's always wondered how his game would stack up against PGA tour players and it looked like this would be his opportunity to find out. I get that and I'm sure the money doesn't hurt either.

What I am finding dispiriting is that, already, the sports washing is working. I'm a bit golf obsessed so I read various media outlets, listen to podcasts etc and already the criticism of where the funding is coming from has almost entirely stopped. Now it's either ignored altogether or a token reference is made. Sadly, Golf Monthly, appears particularly complicit with its content. One of the podcasts I regularly listen to, in their most recent episode, even turned their passing comment on the treatment of women in SA into a joke. I somehow doubt they'd be laughing if it was a matriarchal society that considered the men to be property.

A lot of the players they've signed were guys I didn't particularly care for but it's harder to reconcile with players I once admired and rooted for. Gmac, Poulter, Stenson, Westwood, Casey etc. Plenty of fans won't care but these are players I have lost all respect for. Stenson probably the worst given his about face on the promises he made when taking on the Ryder Cup captaincy and his recent comments as if the whole world didn't know he couldn't be RC captain if he joined liv.

The latest event has already provided all the evidence ever needed as to why the Open can never return to Turnberry while Trump owns it as he turned up to preside over the event which then started to look increasingly like one of his rallies with the right wing chanting that was reported. Golf has a bad enough image without fostering closer ties with MBS and Trump.

Looks like liv will be around for as long as that regime are prepared to pump dirty money into it and golf is all the worse for it. Kudos to those players with a conscience who have refused to be swayed. Those are the guys to admire.
		
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I've noticed that Golf Monthly's twitter does seem like a LIVbot at times...seemingly a lot advertising for it


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## SyR (Aug 1, 2022)

I enjoyed watching the format again this weekend. Free of ads and subscription is great. 

Is the fact it is being funded by the Saudi Royal family morally wrong? Probably, but so are DP Worlds sponsorship of the European Tour or Amaraco series on the Ladies European Tour, but people seem to support these tours without any issue? (unless I have missed the 250 page threads on both sponsorships on here before).


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## GB72 (Aug 1, 2022)

SyR said:



			I enjoyed watching the format again this weekend. Free of ads and subscription is great.

Is the fact it is being funded by the Saudi Royal family morally wrong? Probably, but so are DP Worlds sponsorship of the European Tour or Amaraco series on the Ladies European Tour, but people seem to support these tours without any issue? (unless I have missed the 250 page threads on both sponsorships on here before).
		
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It is an interesting one because I also have moral issues with the funding but I also do not have any sport subscriptions and so, as far as what i can watch is concerned, the PGA Tour does not exist to me, the DP World Tour does not exist, the LPGA does not exist and so my golf viewing was simply highlights of the majors. Now I can watch some live golf. At least with other sports, there is some that is not hidden behind a pretty expensive pay wall, there is some football on TV, there is rugby on TV (and on Amazon Prime that I have for the delivery but the sport is a bonus), there is tennis on TV and on prime, there is some cricket on TV in fact golf is about the only sport that, until now, had absolutely no free to air coverage in the UK outside of highlights of the majors. There are many faults with LIV, the funding etc but as far as viewing is concerned, it is for me the only game in town.


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## Foxholer (Aug 1, 2022)

SyR said:



			I enjoyed watching the format again this weekend. Free of ads and subscription is great.

Is the fact it is being funded by the Saudi Royal family morally wrong? Probably, but so are DP Worlds sponsorship of the European Tour or Amaraco series on the Ladies European Tour, but people seem to support these tours without any issue? (unless I have missed the 250 page threads on both sponsorships on here before).
		
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I think that's more of an 'excuse' for golfers, though definitely a valid reason for other groups, such as the 9/11 groups. Golfers seem, to me, pretty conservative/traditional folk who don't take to change, especially 'dramatic' change, particularly readily. And yes, I realise that's a pretty broad generalisation, but observation based.
The blatant sportswashing, with obscene, guaranteed, prizemoney, is probably what gets to most anti-LIV golfers - certainly this one and my playing group.
YouTube views 550k for final round seems pretty good - though Pumpkin Ridge final round has had 735k. Not sure what PR's next day figures were, so there may be some growth.


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## Whydowedoit (Aug 1, 2022)

Thought the Hero was a good watch yesterday. Plenty of fantastic players ready & coming through the ranks!


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 1, 2022)

Won't be popular on here I'm sure but I just don't see it as a them and us situation. 

I like watching good golf on whatever tour, for now the free to watch ad free Liv coverage all done in 5hrs for me is a breath of fresh air but it won't last long. 
Watched a podcast by Dan Patrick and he was saying FOX are in talks for a TV deal so if that happens you have to think Murdoch will widen it out to Sky, whether its them or not a TV deal will happen for 2023.

I also love watching the PGA Tour, especially the marquee events and the Majors are just incredible to watch, I find the DP events a bit harder to get into and when I went to the cazzoo classic in person it just didn't feel like being at a pro tournament to be honest. 

The marquee  BMW at Wentworth will be great though I'm sure..


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## DaveR (Aug 1, 2022)

Saudi money is dirty? Well I never!
If LIV is causing such a moral outcry maybe the west should cut off all trade with the Saudis. Billions of pounds/dollars down the pan. Then we can take the moral high ground 👍


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## Kaz (Aug 1, 2022)

GB72 said:



			It is an interesting one because I also have moral issues with the funding but I also do not have any sport subscriptions and so, as far as what i can watch is concerned, the PGA Tour does not exist to me, the DP World Tour does not exist, the LPGA does not exist and so my golf viewing was simply highlights of the majors. Now I can watch some live golf. At least with other sports, there is some that is not hidden behind a pretty expensive pay wall, there is some football on TV, there is rugby on TV (and on Amazon Prime that I have for the delivery but the sport is a bonus), there is tennis on TV and on prime, there is some cricket on TV in fact golf is about the only sport that, until now, had absolutely no free to air coverage in the UK outside of highlights of the majors. There are many faults with LIV, the funding etc but as far as viewing is concerned, it is for me the only game in town.
		
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Interestingly, they often show the women's golf live on YouTube for free. The Scottish Open last week was on. However, coverage of women's events often leaves a lot to be desired.


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## GB72 (Aug 1, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Interestingly, they often show the women's golf live on YouTube for free. The Scottish Open last week was on. However, coverage of women's events often leaves a lot to be desired.
		
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If I knew that was there I would watch it. Will keep an eye out


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Won't be popular on here I'm sure but I just don't see it as a them and us situation.

I like watching good golf on whatever tour, for now the free to watch ad free Liv coverage all done in 5hrs for me is a breath of fresh air but it won't last long.
Watched a podcast by Dan Patrick and he was saying FOX are in talks for a TV deal so if that happens you have to think Murdoch will widen it out to Sky, whether its them or not a TV deal will happen for 2023.

I also love watching the PGA Tour, especially the marquee events and the Majors are just incredible to watch, I find the DP events a bit harder to get into and when I went to the cazzoo classic in person it just didn't feel like being at a pro tournament to be honest.

The marquee  BMW at Wentworth will be great though I'm sure..
		
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Murdoch is no longer involved in Sky, he sold up a few years ago.

The way the PGA in particular are reacting to all things LIV, I'm not sure sky will go in with them. It could well threaten their rights deal with the pga and they, currently, value that higher. Whether one of the other broadcasters, amazon for example, fancy it, that's another matter.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Saudi money is dirty? Well I never!
If LIV is causing such a moral outcry maybe the west should cut off all trade with the Saudis. Billions of pounds/dollars down the pan. Then we can take the moral high ground 👍
		
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So the answer to any amount of hypocrisy is just more hypocrisy?


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## SyR (Aug 1, 2022)

GB72 said:



			It is an interesting one because I also have moral issues with the funding but I also do not have any sport subscriptions and so, as far as what i can watch is concerned, the PGA Tour does not exist to me, the DP World Tour does not exist, the LPGA does not exist and so my golf viewing was simply highlights of the majors. Now I can watch some live golf. At least with other sports, there is some that is not hidden behind a pretty expensive pay wall, there is some football on TV, there is rugby on TV (and on Amazon Prime that I have for the delivery but the sport is a bonus), there is tennis on TV and on prime, there is some cricket on TV in fact golf is about the only sport that, until now, had absolutely no free to air coverage in the UK outside of highlights of the majors. There are many faults with LIV, the funding etc but as far as viewing is concerned, it is for me the only game in town.
		
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Indeed, I don't subscribe to Sky as I'm not a fan of paying (an increasing amount) for subscription to then have my viewing constantly interrupted by adverts. Either charge a subscription or show adverts, but not both...
They also have a stranglehold on the established tours, so have no competition for coverage in the UK. I'm sure eventually they'll try to secure the LIV rights, unless the PGA lean on them...


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Murdoch is no longer involved in Sky, he sold up a few years ago.

The way the PGA in particular are reacting to all things LIV, I'm not sure sky will go in with them. It could well threaten their rights deal with the pga and they, currently, value that higher. Whether one of the other broadcasters, amazon for example, fancy it, that's another matter.
		
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Good point well made.
Didn't realise that he wasn't involved now

Mickelson hinted in his press conference that a streaming service could be the likely candidate.. 

Amazon Prime, Apple TV, Netflix, Dazn TV.???


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## Backsticks (Aug 1, 2022)

Amazon could be the likely open. Semi respectable, unlike youtube, pay per view or subscription. They have dipped their toe in the live sports water a few times but it never really seems to have stuck. I think LIV would know that would be the end of any viewers in the UK at least I feel : Sky or free are the only two options.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 1, 2022)

Haven’t seen the comment from Phil about future streaming but Bubba mentioned it in his interview on the weekend, so that would suggest to me that they want to maintain a free stream going forwards. I’m sure they’ll want/try to supplement with tv broadcasts, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
What they have already is much more viewer friendly than what a lot of people get served up watching the tours, I’ve read plenty of positive compliments moments across social media.


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## Backsticks (Aug 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Haven’t seen the comment from Phil about future streaming but Bubba mentioned it in his interview on the weekend, so that would suggest to me that they want to maintain a free stream going forwards. I’m sure they’ll want/try to supplement with tv broadcasts, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
What they have already is much more viewer friendly than what a lot of people get served up watching the tours, I’ve read plenty of positive compliments moments across social media.
		
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Probably more that mention how gag inducing the commentators are with the hyping of the teams though. The insincerity is laid on with a trowel, and everyone knows the commentators think it is garbage as well.


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



Haven’t seen the comment from Phil about future streaming but Bubba mentioned it in his interview on the weekend, so that would suggest to me that they want to maintain a free stream going forwards. I’m sure they’ll want/try to supplement with tv broadcasts, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
*What they have already is much more viewer friendly than what a lot of people get served up watching the tours*, I’ve read plenty of positive compliments moments across social media.
		
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Having watched the Tennis and PL football via streaming on Amazon Prime, there is no chance it's much more viewer friendly, infact it's considerably worse.

To suggest so, is incredibly delusional.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Haven’t seen the comment from Phil about future streaming but Bubba mentioned it in his interview on the weekend, so that would suggest to me that they want to maintain a free stream going forwards. I’m sure they’ll want/try to supplement with tv broadcasts, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
What they have already is much more viewer friendly than what a lot of people get served up watching the tours, I’ve read plenty of positive compliments moments across social media.
		
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To keep a free stream means keeping it on the the likes of you tube , Facebook etc -

Something needs to bring in the commercial money - that means adverts


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 1, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			Having watched the Tennis and PL football via streaming on Amazon Prime, there is no chance it's much more viewer friendly, infact it's considerably worse.

To suggest so, is incredibly delusional.
		
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Sorry, can you clarify your point?

I’m pointing out that what Liv golf are offering is more viewer friendly than the advert laden coverage that a lot of viewers get of tour golf? A sentiment that I’ve seen repeated numerous times over the last few days.


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Sorry, can you clarify your point?

I’m pointing out that what Liv golf are offering is more viewer friendly than the advert laden coverage that a lot of viewers get of tour golf? A sentiment that I’ve seen repeated numerous times over the last few days.
		
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My point is streaming sport is a far less enjoyable watch than a HD crystal clear service we are currently receiving through sky/nbc etc 

I wouldnt class having less/no adverts as being “ much more viewer friendly”. A break in coverage gives a chance to refill my scotch, take a toilet break without missing anything etc.

Also, having the opportunity to pause,rewind and record is a great option.

With all of the above in mind, to make such a statement like the one you made, is delusional.


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## RRidges (Aug 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Sorry, can you clarify your point?

I’m pointing out that what Liv golf are offering is more viewer friendly than the advert laden coverage that a lot of viewers get of tour golf? A sentiment that I’ve seen repeated numerous times over the last few days.
		
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Amazon Prime doesn't have ads for Tennis or, from memory, PL Football. 
@HomecountiesJohn Tennis provides sufficient breaks - about every 2nd game - for comfort breaks. And there's almost enough time for a group you may be following between finishing putting out and teeing off the next hole for the same with LIV. One of the things that have taken a bit of getting used to - and I still don't much like - is the leaping from group to group that LIV broadcast does. 
The lack of adverts is a 'benefit' of LIV's failure/decision wrt additional sponsorship through advertising/a 'proper' broadcaster. For Pro-LIV folk to subsequently claim that and 'universal access' as a benefit makes me chortle, though, from memory, I predicted it would happen!


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## 4LEX (Aug 2, 2022)

Stenson winning shows how laughable this venture is currently. Weak limited fields going through the motions. It's clown golf for dossers. I've actually given it a chance to see what it's about and won't watch it again. I'd rather watch back to back Homes under the Hammer with Dion Dublin than that sycophantic nonsense.

Embarrassing stuff seeing Stenson and Poulter banging on about 'The Captain' trying to make cheap digs. 

Forget where the money comes from, golf has always been a game about class, integrity and respect and these jokers have destroyed all that.


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## Beezerk (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			My point is streaming sport is a far less enjoyable watch than a HD crystal clear service we are currently receiving through sky/nbc etc 

I wouldnt class having less/no adverts as being “ much more viewer friendly”. A break in coverage gives a chance to refill my scotch, take a toilet break without missing anything etc.

Also, having the opportunity to pause,rewind and record is a great option.

With all of the above in mind, to make such a statement like the one you made, is delusional.
		
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I don’t understand your logic.
If an advert comes on tv you are missing live coverage 🤔
If you’re watching on YouTube you can also pause, rewind, fast forward coverage so you effectively miss nothing.
Granted you can get ultra HD via Sky but you pay through the nose for it.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			My point is streaming sport is a far less enjoyable watch than a HD crystal clear service we are currently receiving through sky/nbc etc

I wouldnt class having less/no adverts as being “ much more viewer friendly”. A break in coverage gives a chance to refill my scotch, take a toilet break without missing anything etc.

Also, having the opportunity to pause,rewind and record is a great option.

With all of the above in mind, to make such a statement like the one you made, is delusional.
		
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Pretty sure my picture has been crystal clear on all the LIV streams I’ve watched, both on YouTube, and on the Liv golf website. 
I have seen one or two people mention it not being a clear picture but  that has been put down to internet connection quality by those responding. 

You can pause and rewind the streams on you tube, plus there’s a ton of other highlight reels, interviews, etc that will stay there for as long as anybody wants to watch them, plus, and this is key, you can easily watch a stream on any device. Phone, tablet, tv, Xbox, PlayStation… 

I’m not sure you’re argument that I’m delusional is accurate given all that?


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To keep a free stream means keeping it on the the likes of you tube , Facebook etc -

Something needs to bring in the commercial money - that means adverts
		
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Yes your right it will be a subscription streaming service that will bid for it. 

Some of those don't have adverts though..


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## theoneandonly (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			My point is streaming sport is a far less enjoyable watch than a HD crystal clear service we are currently receiving through sky/nbc etc 

I wouldnt class having less/no adverts as being “ much more viewer friendly”. A break in coverage gives a chance to refill my scotch, take a toilet break without missing anything etc.

Also, having the opportunity to pause,rewind and record is a great option.

With all of the above in mind, to make such a statement like the one you made, is delusional.
		
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The BBC streamed Wimbledon in 4k on iPlayer. As they will the world cup. It's way better than the regular 1080p stuff on BBC1 HD


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes your right it will be a subscription streaming service that will bid for it.

Some of those don't have adverts though..
		
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It always amazes me how Red Bull make any money, sponsor loads of events globally for extreme sports, run a F1 team, and offer a free streaming service for loads of events.

Somewhere in their business plan, LIVs strategy will overlap.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It always amazes me how Red Bull make any money, sponsor loads of events globally for extreme sports, run a F1 team, and offer a free streaming service for loads of events.

Somewhere in their business plan, LIVs strategy will overlap.
		
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To have any chance of becoming sustainable they have to sign a lucrative TV deal as well as other sponsorship opportunities like tournament sponsors and franchising the teams. 

The unknown is whether PIF have said it must become sustainable in the future. 

They may have said here's 2 billion to get it off the ground and then you have to become sustainable. 
They may have said its good PR for our country so we are happy to write it off forever. 

We can all hypothesise and have views on that  but no one has a clue other than GN and PIF


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## IainP (Aug 2, 2022)

RRidges said:



			...One of the things that have taken a bit of getting used to - and I still don't much like - is the leaping from group to group that LIV broadcast does.
....
		
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Is interesting how we have different preferences and views 👍
Personally I found the most recent one had moved to be more similar to the regular broadcasts. There seemed to be a lot more coverage of players walking about & faffing around, where I'd have preferred they cut away for some golf shots and come back when ready. Also seemed to be showing more the holing out of 18 inch putts.
Anyway maybe this thread will slow down for a few weeks....


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes your right it will be a subscription streaming service that will bid for it.

Some of those don't have adverts though..
		
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Yep they don’t have adverts - only watched Football and Rugby on Prime and there were Prime adverts during half time etc 

But it then become a subscription service so the “free” viewing goes 

Have no doubt that LIV will try and charge a fortune for the rights and that cost will go to the consumer - so if people want to watch golf it’s going to be the same as Football , going to need a minimum of two subscriptions


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It always amazes me how Red Bull make any money, sponsor loads of events globally for extreme sports, run a F1 team, and offer a free streaming service for loads of events.

Somewhere in their business plan, LIVs strategy will overlap.
		
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Selling just under 8billion cans of Red Bull is a good start 

Revenue of just over £5bn

Net income of around £700mil


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pretty sure my picture has been crystal clear on all the LIV streams I’ve watched, both on YouTube, and on the Liv golf website.
I have seen one or two people mention it not being a clear picture but  that has been put down to internet connection quality by those responding.

You can pause and rewind the streams on you tube, plus there’s a ton of other highlight reels, interviews, etc that will stay there for as long as anybody wants to watch them, plus, and this is key, you can easily watch a stream on any device. Phone, tablet, tv, Xbox, PlayStation…

I’m not sure you’re argument that I’m delusional is accurate given all that?
		
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How ironic, your stream has been crystal clear 🤔

Never had any issues with streaming except for Tennis, football and LIV golf.

All things being equal, no adverts doesnt make it a "much more viewer friendly" than the current offering from Sky.

It's impossible to see every single shot live, you can only watch 1 golfer play at one time.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			How ironic, your stream has been crystal clear 🤔

Never had any issues with streaming except for Tennis, football and LIV golf.

All things being equal, no adverts doesnt make it a "much more viewer friendly" than the current offering from Sky.

It's impossible to see every single shot live, you can only watch 1 golfer play at one time.
		
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Says a man trying to justify his extortionate sky subscription…


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## sunshine (Aug 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To keep a free stream means keeping it on the the likes of you tube , Facebook etc -

Something needs to bring in the commercial money - that means adverts
		
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This is the thing, there is no need for adverts because Liv doesn’t stand on its own feet commercially. That’s the whole point of this sports washing project.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			This is the thing, there is no need for adverts because Liv doesn’t stand on its own feet commercially. That’s the whole point of this sports washing project.
		
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How much reading have you done on this topic Sunshine, long term, it exists to generate income for the Saudis, not to constantly drain it away.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How much reading have you done on this topic Sunshine, long term, it exists to generate income for the Saudis, not to constantly drain it away.
		
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Good luck with that on current model!
$25M/Tournament prize money even before 'production costs' ain't gonna be recovered anytime soon!


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## r0wly86 (Aug 2, 2022)

Guardian reporting that LIV offered Tiger $700-800m to come over, which he turned down.

That is just ludicrous money


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Says a man trying to justify his extortionate sky subscription…
		
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Extortionate??  I dont think so. 

With a petty response like this, I will stand by my intial comment.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Guardian reporting that LIV offered Tiger $700-800m to come over, which he turned down.

That is just ludicrous money
		
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As a Billionaire already, that's nowhere near the sort of offer/assets ratio the early sign-ups were offered.
Apparently Nicklaus rejected a $100M offer for a management role too.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			Is interesting how we have different preferences and views 👍
Personally I found the most recent one had moved to be more similar to the regular broadcasts. There seemed to be a lot more coverage of players walking about & faffing around, where I'd have preferred they cut away for some golf shots and come back when ready. Also seemed to be showing more the holing out of 18 inch putts.
Anyway maybe this thread will slow down for a few weeks....
		
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I noticed that too. Seems better not having to instantly adjust after virtually every shot. Feherty's laid back commentary style has been a welcome relief too. The mic-in-the-hole was a great innovation though.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			Extortionate??  I dont think so.

With a petty response like this, I will stand by my intial comment.
		
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Mate, you can't be going round calling people delusional then get upset when somebody describes SkyTv as extortianate, when we are having a discussion about a proffessional golf tour that is currently free to watch.

Either engage in the debate, or stay well clear of it.


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## Orikoru (Aug 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			Is interesting how we have different preferences and views 👍
Personally I found the most recent one had moved to be more similar to the regular broadcasts. There seemed to be a lot more coverage of players walking about & faffing around, where I'd have preferred they cut away for some golf shots and come back when ready. Also seemed to be showing more the holing out of 18 inch putts.
Anyway maybe this thread will slow down for a few weeks....
		
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I watched some of it on the weekend. Some of the cuts were definitely too quick. At one point Westwood overhit a chip that looked to be rolling towards the far edge of the green which had water just the other side of it... they cut away to someone putting before the ball had even stopped moving!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

I watched bits of the first one out of curiosity. Also, because it was in London, I was able to watch it on one of my office monitors. At home though, I have better things to be doing.

It was never really going to appeal to me anyway. I usually stick to the Majors, WGCs, Ryder Cup, Fedex Tour Championships and a few of the other regular PGA events. I don't watch most if the more minor PGA events anyway, and LIV is no more appealing than those. To me, it is far less appealing as a fan. Why:


Limited fields, so less likely you'll have a large bunch of golfers fighting for the win. 
All action is only in the space of four or so hours. For me, unless I have huge interest in an event, I'm happy to simply tune in when I can, and watch a bit of golf. If that is early in the days play, I may get pulled in and watch a bit more as the day progresses. With LIV, there is significantly less broadcast time of golf (even without ads) as they all play at the same time.
LIV is only 3 days, see point above about broadcasting less golf.
There is no cut. At least with PGA events there is some incentive to watch players fight to make the cut, as well as build a lead. 
The small amount of time I watched it, and feedback from others, is that LIV flips back and forth between many different players more frequently. To be honest, I have no interest in watching Phil, Brooks or any other talented player (or otherwise) when they are playing poorly, and hacking it around the course with zero chance of playing for anything.
The team element is just awful. I'd like to just ignore it, but because it is mentioned it becomes an unnecessary distraction.
LIV fans moan that the LIV players may not compete in Majors in the future due to their rankings falling, and that this would detract from the Majors. Perhaps to a degree. But, that exact argument is applicable to each and every LIV event, on steroids. Players are invited to play. Many will not be invited, and many of the top players have still refused due to their standing on the PGA Tour / European Tour. So, who cares who wins a LIV event, as it is tarnished by not having the likes of McIlroy, Thomas, Cantlay, Spieth and many many more, who have the potential to beat anyone on LIV in any given week.
It is still interesting how things will progress. I can see exactly why many players are happy to take the cash. But how long will that cash be given out, as I cannot see LIV generating more interest from fans in comparison to the Majors and WGCs. Maybe it'll attract fans who are not willing to put their hand in their pocket to subscribe to Sky, but I don't think that will help the sustainability of the money being thrown away at the moment.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Mate, you can't be going round calling people delusional then get upset when somebody describes SkyTv as extortianate, when we are having a discussion about a proffessional golf tour that is currently free to watch.

Either engage in the debate, or stay well clear of it.
		
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Having a free, lower quality, broadcast doesn't automatically make a high quality subscription based broadcast extortionate!
I'm certain LIV had no commercial broadcasters able/prepared to provide coverage, so had to go the YouTube route and you are now attempting to push that as a benefit! Basically, without free-to-watch broadcast, it would hardly/not have been watched!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Having a free, lower quality, broadcast doesn't automatically make a high quality subscription based broadcast extortionate!
I'm certain LIV had no commercial broadcasters able/prepared to provide coverage, so had to go the YouTube route and you are now attempting to push that as a benefit! Basically, without free-to-watch broadcast, it would hardly/not have been watched!
		
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That is a good point. I've frequently heard the argument that free subscription is one of the benefits to LIV golf, and helping their aim to grow the game.

However, I'm pretty sure if Sky, BT or Amazon had been dead keen to show LIV golf events, then LIV would have been on those channels. And therefore fans would have needed to subscribe to those platforms as normal.

So, the fact it is free on youTube is surely an unintended consequence of the fact no major broadcaster wanted to touch it. Unless there is any evidence out there that LIV purposely did not approach any major sports broadcaster, and intend to have it free to air at all times?


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## BiMGuy (Aug 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Having a free, lower quality, broadcast doesn't automatically make a high quality subscription based broadcast extortionate!
I'm certain LIV had no commercial broadcasters able/prepared to provide coverage, so had to go the YouTube route and you are now attempting to push that as a benefit! Basically, without free-to-watch broadcast, it would hardly/not have been watched!
		
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Some people seem to have forgotten that LiV is only free to watch on YouTube because none of the mainstream broadcasters currently want it. The way some people are spinning it as a positive as though it has been done on purpose to allow the masses to watch it for free is laughable.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That is a good point. I've frequently heard the argument that free subscription is one of the benefits to LIV golf, and helping their aim to grow the game.

However, I'm pretty sure if Sky, BT or Amazon had been dead keen to show LIV golf events, then LIV would have been on those channels. And therefore fans would have needed to subscribe to those platforms as normal.

So, the fact it is free on youTube is surely an unintended consequence of the fact no major broadcaster wanted to touch it. Unless there is any evidence out there that LIV purposely did not approach any major sports broadcaster, and intend to have it free to air at all times?
		
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Agreed.
Unintended, but with the 'benefit' of availability that MB is pushing - as I predicted many pages ago. The question as to whether anyone/many would have subscribed to watch it if it was on a subscription based broadcaster (doubtful imo) is simply avoided.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

Guys, it's a start up business!! How on earth would they have sold that to a major televison network, and expected to receive a massive chunk of money for it, and expected some of those broadcasters to reschedule the golf they have already committed to broadcasting so they can show this product that nobody has any knowlegde of??

And to think there's a geezer on here calling me delusional, and people on one side of the debate are actually liking that comment.


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## r0wly86 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guys, it's a start up business!! How on earth would they have sold that to a major televison network, and expected to receive a massive chunk of money for it, and expected some of those broadcasters to reschedule the golf they have already committed to broadcasting so they can show this product that nobody has any knowlegde of??

And to think there's a geezer on here calling me delusional, and people on one side of the debate are actually liking that comment.
		
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a start up business, that has billions of dollars in ready cash available to spend as they want with no oversight


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Mate, you can't be going round calling people delusional then get upset when somebody describes SkyTv as extortianate, when we are having a discussion about a proffessional golf tour that is currently free to watch.

Either engage in the debate, or stay well clear of it.
		
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I'm far from upset. For clarity i find my sky subscription value for money. 

Sky/broadband/phone package with sky sports is just a tad under £100 per month.

I watch quite a lot of sport and feel i most definitely get Value For Money in that regard.

It's all relative i suppose.

You've tried to justify why LIV is "much more viewer friendly" other than it being free and advertless it's actually not.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It always amazes me how Red Bull make any money, sponsor loads of events globally for extreme sports, run a F1 team, and offer a free streaming service for loads of events.
...
		
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That statement alone should disqualify you from making any comment wrt financial viability of sponsorship by large organisations!


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## Slab (Aug 2, 2022)

Stating again I’m very much on the fence about liv, and I totally get why this forum would focus on broadcasting only from a uk perspective… but it has to be said it’s clearly intended as a global product and from that perspective liv do already have broadcast deals in place for much of mainland Europe, most of asia, south America and continental Africa

So regardless of whether I want to see it fail or succeed it has to be said from a broadcast perspective its not that bad a start after three events?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guys, it's a start up business!! *How on earth would they have sold that to a major televison network*, and expected to receive a massive chunk of money for it, and expected some of those broadcasters to reschedule the golf they have already committed to broadcasting so they can show this product that nobody has any knowlegde of??

And to think there's a geezer on here calling me delusional, and people on one side of the debate are actually liking that comment.
		
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The Premier League was a start up business in the early 90's, it sold pretty well to a major broadcaster. I don't know anything about darts, only that there are 2 separate tours so to speak. Where both of them televised (and darts is nowhere near as popular as golf)

The reason broadcasters do not want it has nothing to do with it being a start up business.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			I'm far from upset. For clarity i find my sky subscription value for money.

Sky/broadband/phone package with sky sports is just a tad under £100 per month.

I watch quite a lot of sport and feel i most definitely get Value For Money in that regard.

It's all relative i suppose.

You've tried to justify why LIV is "much more viewer friendly" other than it being free and advertless it's actually not.
		
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My phone / internet / TV package is £26 a month. So in my opinion, at 400% the cost of mine - give or take, I'd say yours is extortionate. 

I find LIV more viewer friendly, because, for starters, ANYBODY can view it, it isn't bogged down with adverts and needless analysis, it's condensed into a shorter timeframe, there is more action while you are watching, the visuals are more viewer friendly, and the coverage connects directly with the LIV golf website. I can also watch it anywhere, on any device, without needing to log in to any accounts or download any specific apps.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Slab said:



			Stating again I’m very much on the fence about liv, and I totally get why this forum would focus on broadcasting only from a uk perspective… but it has to be said it’s clearly intended as a global product and from that perspective liv do already have broadcast deals in place for much of mainland Europe, most of asia, south America and continental Africa

So regardless of whether I want to see it fail or succeed it has to be said from a broadcast perspective its not that bad a start after three events?
		
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Are all these broadcast deals in other countries free to air?


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How much reading have you done on this topic Sunshine, long term, it exists to generate income for the Saudis, not to constantly drain it away.
		
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Go on then tell us how they propose to do that without either income from TV via subscriptions or advertising.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*The Premier League was a start up business in the early 90's,* it sold pretty well to a major broadcaster. I don't know anything about darts, only that there are 2 separate tours so to speak. Where both of them televised (and darts is nowhere near as popular as golf)

The reason broadcasters do not want it has nothing to do with it being a start up business.
		
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You must be a fan of an established PL club to come out with that kind of bullshardough


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Go on then tell us how they propose to do that without either income from TV via subscriptions or advertising.
		
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I haven't said they won't have I, I acknowledge that they may well go down a subscription package route with adverts in the future, but right now, that's not the case, much to the benefit of the viewer.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You must be a fan of an established PL club to come out with that kind of bullshardough 

Click to expand...

Just pointing out the absurdity of your claim that, because LIV is a start up business, it couldn't possibly get a broadcasting deal.


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## evemccc (Aug 2, 2022)

Who actually watches PGA Tour golf tournaments? 
If they do I would bet it’s almost solely the last round, and for a couple of hours at most…and then only very occasionally?

I would expect that the overwhelming bulk of golf viewing is the Majors and the Ryder Cup, and only then perhaps the Players at a distance behind 

I’m pretty sure that two of the biggest supporters of the PGA Tour on this thread agreed that they rarely watched it


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I haven't said they won't have I, I acknowledge that they may well go down a subscription package route with adverts in the future, but right now, that's not the case, much to the benefit of the viewer.
		
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Here is a question then. Let us say LIV does go down the subscription route in the future, with ads (basically, let us say it goes to Sky). What will you do? Are you going to stop watching LIV, or are you finally going to get your hand out of your pocket and pay for Sky?


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			...
You've tried to justify why LIV is "much more viewer friendly" other than it being free and advertless it's actually not.
		
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Totally agree! It's definitely a more difficult watch and there are distinct aspects that are horrendous!


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## Slab (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are all these broadcast deals in other countries free to air?
		
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No idea, I wouldn't have thought so though. Certainly my sports pack (inc liv) isn't free to air (although doubtless i could get it from the same source as folk in the UK I suppose) 
My point was that far from _'not being able to secure a broadcast deal_', liv actually have much of the world already signed up


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## AddisonRoad (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guys, it's a start up business!! How on earth would they have sold that to a major televison network, and expected to receive a massive chunk of money for it, and expected some of those broadcasters to reschedule the golf they have already committed to broadcasting so they can show this product that nobody has any knowlegde of??

And to think there's a geezer on here calling me delusional, and people on one side of the debate are actually liking that comment.
		
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This is a poor argument - the XFL (a rival to the NFL without any big names) already has a five-year deal with ESPN for when it launches in 2023. It has much less funding and star power than LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Who actually watches PGA Tour golf tournaments?
If they do I would bet it’s almost solely the last round, and for a couple of hours at most…and then only very occasionally?

I would expect that the overwhelming bulk of golf viewing is the Majors and the Ryder Cup, and only then perhaps the Players at a distance behind

I’m pretty sure that two of the biggest supporters of the PGA Tour on this thread agreed that they rarely watched it
		
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When I first got Sky, I used to watch the PGA events nearly every day (Thursday-Sunday). It generated my interest in the PGA Tour generally, although now I only tend to watch my favourite ones (like the Pro-Am and Pebble Beach), and stick to the Majors/WGCs. Mainly because I usually have a lot of football to watch.

However, my mate watched loads of the PGA Tour and European Tour every week. Basically it is the only thing on his TV when he is in the house. I know quite a few golfers at my club that are the same. I'm often being asked by some random guy in my group "did you see such and such" referring to some golf recently on TV. I usually say no, unless it was in one of the big ones.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

Slab said:



			No idea, I wouldn't have thought so though. Certainly my sports pack (inc liv) isn't free to air (although doubtless i could get it from the same source as folk in the UK I suppose)
My point was that far from _'not being able to secure a broadcast deal_', liv actually have much of the world already signed up
		
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Yeah, but the point I was making was simply that an argument FOR LIV cannot be that it is free to air and has no ads. That may be the case in the UK at the moment, but that was almost certainly not part of their business plan. A certain LIV fan appears to be suggesting that this is part of LIVs masterplan, and that it could never have attracted a major broadcaster as it is a start up business. This point of view seems to be utterly false.


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## Orikoru (Aug 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Who actually watches PGA Tour golf tournaments?
If they do I would bet it’s almost solely the last round, and for a couple of hours at most…and then only very occasionally?

I would expect that the overwhelming bulk of golf viewing is the Majors and the Ryder Cup, and only then perhaps the Players at a distance behind

I’m pretty sure that two of the biggest supporters of the PGA Tour on this thread agreed that they rarely watched it
		
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You're right. I have watched a bit of the LIV tournaments out of curiosity, but ultimately my interest won't last simply because they're not majors. Nothing to do with who's in the field or anything.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
I find LIV more viewer friendly...
		
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I find it distinctly (this) viewer unfriendly! 
Though the acquisition of Feherty has been/made a significantly improvement


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## GB72 (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, but the point I was making was simply that an argument FOR LIV cannot be that it is free to air and has no ads. That may be the case in the UK at the moment, but that was almost certainly not part of their business plan. A certain LIV fan appears to be suggesting that this is part of LIVs masterplan, and that it could never have attracted a major broadcaster as it is a start up business. This point of view seems to be utterly false.
		
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I think that LIV just has a far higher hurdle to clear for that first TV deal as I have little doubt that the PGA, and by proxy the DP Tour, will pull the plug on any future dealings with a company that covers LIV so LIV have taken the obvious route and gone it alone on YouTube. Now, the interestng thing will be when it comes to the next round of negotiations. Will the V companies use the threat of LIV as a bargaining tool and, most importantly, will the PGA Tour stick up for the DP tour as that has become arguably less relevant almost overnight. If the Asia Tour takes on the LIV golfers looking for ranking points, would that now be looked at for a TV deal or would he PGA Tour try and block that. 

Whatever happens, the next round of TV talks could be brutal.


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## Slab (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, but the point I was making was simply that an argument FOR LIV cannot be that it is free to air and has no ads. That may be the case in the UK at the moment, but that was almost certainly not part of their business plan. A certain LIV fan appears to be suggesting that this is part of LIVs masterplan, and that it could never have attracted a major broadcaster as it is a start up business. This point of view seems to be utterly false.
		
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Yeah I get it. I was just pointing out that 'no broadcaster wants it' is very much a UK/US only issue and maybe says more about the pay tv 'market' in those areas compared to other territories


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## GB72 (Aug 2, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			You're right. I have watched a bit of the LIV tournaments out of curiosity, but ultimately my interest won't last simply because they're not majors. Nothing to do with who's in the field or anything.
		
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I do somewhat agree with that. I find golf is not a great viewer spectacle and so LIV is perfect for me to have on in the backgroudn whilst doing other things, it is also why I do not pay for any golf coverage. Last 9 holes of the majors has great drama, anything else I can take or leave.


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## Beezerk (Aug 2, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			You're right. I have watched a bit of the LIV tournaments out of curiosity, but ultimately my interest won't last simply because they're not majors. Nothing to do with who's in the field or anything.
		
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Same, I watch the majors, Players and Waste Management that’s about it. I may flick on to the golf channel to see what’s happening but I certainly won’t invest any serious time into regular pga and et tour events.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Here is a question then. Let us say LIV does go down the subscription route in the future, with ads (basically, let us say it goes to Sky). What will you do? Are you going to stop watching LIV, or are you finally going to get your hand out of your pocket and pay for Sky?
		
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I'll find an illegal stream and watch it on that for nowt. ;-)

No, serisously, I've enjoyed watching LIV and if it did become part of the Sky package, and that was the only way to access it, I'd certainly be more tempted to part with my cash.


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## GB72 (Aug 2, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Same, I watch the majors, Players and Waste Management that’s about it. I may flick on to the golf channel to see what’s happening but I certainly won’t invest any serious time into regular pga and et tour events.
		
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I think this is an inherent issue with ay sport that defines a number of major or grand slam events, everything else just feels like a warm up, practice or qualifying for the few events that matter.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 2, 2022)

Sounds like Mickleson Gate put Liv back by 12 months so cost them way more than the 200mil signing on fee. 🙈
Talks other Saudi money in golf
Talks about Trump associaition
And other stuff.. 

Greg Norman interview here


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## PNWokingham (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'll find an illegal stream and watch it on that for nowt. ;-)

No, serisously, I've enjoyed watching LIV and if it did become part of the Sky package, and that was the only way to access it, I'd certainly be more tempted to part with my cash.
		
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Do you actually work for LIV or have a particular interest in its success?


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## pokerjoke (Aug 2, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Some people seem to have forgotten that LiV is only free to watch on YouTube because none of the mainstream broadcasters currently want it. The way some people are spinning it as a positive as though it has been done on purpose to allow the masses to watch it for free is laughable.
		
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Currently 
Won’t be long


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## pokerjoke (Aug 2, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Do you actually work for LIV or have a particular interest in its success?
		
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Interestingly some on here hate it ,have no interest in it,think it’s morally wrong,but will discuss it continuously like they have a major stake in it.
Don’t understand that at all.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Do you actually work for LIV or have a particular interest in its success?
		
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I've been asked this question numerous times on here, and the answer is always, all views are my own.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I've been asked this question numerous times on here, and the answer is always, all views are my own.
		
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That doesn't answer the question though!
Nicely sidestepped!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Who actually watches PGA Tour golf tournaments?
If they do I would bet it’s almost solely the last round, and for a couple of hours at most…and then only very occasionally?

I would expect that the overwhelming bulk of golf viewing is the Majors and the Ryder Cup, and only then perhaps the Players at a distance behind

I’m pretty sure that two of the biggest supporters of the PGA Tour on this thread agreed that they rarely watched it
		
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Just to clarify just because some isn’t a fan of the LIV tour doesn’t make them supporters of the PGA Tour 

And when it comes to watching , most will watch the majors , Ryder Cup - I’ll watch the WGC’s , Players and then things like Memorial at times or if nothing else is on 

It’s good for background stuff - even more so the ET during the day


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## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*My phone / internet / TV package is £26 a month. *So in my opinion, at 400% the cost of mine - give or take, I'd say yours is extortionate.

I find LIV more viewer friendly, because, for starters, ANYBODY can view it, it isn't bogged down with adverts and needless analysis, it's condensed into a shorter timeframe, there is more action while you are watching, the visuals are more viewer friendly, and the coverage connects directly with the LIV golf website. I can also watch it anywhere, on any device, without needing to log in to any accounts or download any specific apps.
		
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It's not a true comparison though is it. 

Like i said, it's all relative.  I watch a range of sports and think over a month i get a good deal. 

It's a crazy concept i know but if you want certain things in life you have to pay the going rate.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			It's not a true comparison though is it.

Like i said, it's all relative.  I watch a range of sports and think over a month i get a good deal.

It's a crazy concept i know but if you want certain things in life you have to pay the going rate.
		
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Absolutely, you think it's value, I think it's extortionate, neither one of us is right or wrong, but, when you are currently able to watch some of the worlds highest profile golfers play golf, for free, then it devalues the packages that Sky are offering.


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## JamesR (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Absolutely, you think it's value, I think it's extortionate, neither one of us is right or wrong, but, when you are currently able to watch some of the worlds highest profile golfers play golf, for free, then it devalues the packages that Sky are offering.
		
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Sky show the PGA tour, DP World Tour, Challenge Tour, Europro tour, LPGA and LET tours, plus PGA Champions Tour and Legends tour, as part of that package and there is something on 4 days a week, virtually every week.
LIV is only on a few times per year.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 2, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Sky show the PGA tour, DP World Tour, Challenge Tour, Europro tour, LPGA and LET tours, plus PGA Champions Tour and Legends tour, as part of that package and there is something on 4 days a week, virtually every week.
LIV is only on a few times per year.
		
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Yeah, I'd rather watch Dan Hendrikson or Rick Shiels than most of what you have listed there, and a lot of those are also available on You Tube. 14 LIV events next year that will sit between the majors, and everything else in terms of how much of my attention they'll attract.

I've got zero interest in sitting up late on a nigh to watch most of the PGA Tour events.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Absolutely, you think it's value, I think it's extortionate, neither one of us is right or wrong, but, when you are currently able to watch some of the worlds highest profile golfers play golf, for free, then it devalues the packages that Sky are offering.
		
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That Sky packages gives me a lot more than just PGA tour 

24 hour golf - LPGA , leT , ET , Challenge Tour , Europro - the majors , Ryder Cup

On top of that - instructional videos , 30 mins tips , open zones , highlights of old events 

And then there is all the other sports I can watch on it , plus Sky Go etc


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Sky show the PGA tour, DP World Tour, Challenge Tour, Europro tour, LPGA and LET tours, plus PGA Champions Tour and Legends tour, as part of that package and there is something on 4 days a week, virtually every week.
LIV is only on a few times per year.
		
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And, as an added bonus, if you like watching any other sports, Sky probably offer you a bonus on top of your golf. Football, F1, Cricket, etc. I'd imagine most sporty people have an interest in more than one sport.

I think the Sports Package is is about £45 per month? It amuses me that I know many people that would be happy to go to the cinema for one or 2 nights a month at ridiculous prices, or go out most weekends and piss £50-£100 against the wall. Or fund a heavy smoking habit. Yet, when they are asked to pay £45 a month to get access to continuous sport, nearly every night of the week if they want it, they start moaning about being ripped off.

It's fine. If you want to waste your money on other interests, feel free. We all have different lifestyles and interests. However, I can think of many other things that are a bigger waste of money than Sky.


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## Springveldt (Aug 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			Extortionate??  I dont think so.

With a petty response like this, I will stand by my intial comment.
		
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I'm guessing you will be in the minority if you don't think SKY is extortionate.

Seems like from your responses that the streaming world is slipping by you when you think you can't pause, rewind etc live streams. The YouTube broadcasts have been flawless for me in 1080p.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, I'd rather watch Dan Hendrikson or Rick Shiels than most of what you have listed there, and a lot of those are also available on You Tube. 14 LIV events next year that will sit between the majors, and everything else in terms of how much of my attention they'll attract.

I've got zero interest in sitting up late on a nigh to watch most of the PGA Tour events.
		
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so when LIV get a commercial deal are you then going to bite the bullet and stump up to watch the best golf on TV or just try and find a dodgy stream - you mentioned both? Which way will you go?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 2, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			so when LIV get a commercial deal are you then going to bite the bullet and stump up to watch the best golf on TV or just try and find a dodgy stream - you mentioned both? Which way will you go?
		
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See Post 5013. Apparently he'd be tempted to hand over his cash, yet he hasn't up to now, been willing to hand over his cash to watch the full schedule, including Majors and Ryder Cups. 

Really strange that.


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## JamesR (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, I'd rather watch Dan Hendrikson or Rick Shiels than most of what you have listed there, and a lot of those are also available on You Tube. 14 LIV events next year that will sit between the majors, and everything else in terms of how much of my attention they'll attract.

I've got zero interest in sitting up late on a nigh to watch most of the PGA Tour events.
		
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To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies "you would say that, wouldn't you"


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## 4LEX (Aug 2, 2022)

Sunday night PGA viewing is the best of golf coverage. Lost count of all the brilliant late nights I've enjoyed watching it over the last decade or so. Meltdowns, crazy play offs, incredible finishes etc. With the time difference it's perfect.


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## Foxholer (Aug 2, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'm guessing you will be in the minority if you don't think SKY is extortionate.
...
		
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With, End of 2019 figures admittedly, 12.7 Million subscribers, it's a pretty healthy minority!


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## Captainron (Aug 2, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'm guessing you will be in the minority if you don't think SKY is extortionate.
		
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I pay just under £100 a month for Sky (TV package only) and it’s a bargain. 

A night out costs that easily these days with the price of booze, a kebab and a cab. 
A meal at a half decent restaurant is around £120 for the 4 of us. 
£100 goes nowhere these days and spanking it on sky makes sense to me.


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## Crow (Aug 2, 2022)

Seems people are happy to pay around £1,000 a year for Sky and yet I often hear people moaning about paying £159 for a TV Licence.

Just think how great the BBC would be if the Licence was £1,000 a year, more channels, the ability to bid for sports broadcast, and no adverts.


----------



## evemccc (Aug 2, 2022)

Crow said:



			Seems people are happy to pay around £1,000 a year for Sky and yet I often hear people moaning about paying £159 for a TV Licence.

*Just think how great the BBC would be if the Licence was £1,000 a year, more channels, the ability to bid for sports broadcast, and no adverts.*

Click to expand...

I don’t need to daydream about an impossible future….
I can actually *remember* how great the BBC was in the late 80s and early 90s…no adverts (in recent years it advertises its own shows etc..which are still adverts), no social-engineering agenda, it’s tone was a calm reassuring and moderate authority, and it HAD all the sports with good commentary!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I don’t need to daydream about an impossible future….
I can actually *remember* how great the BBC was in the late 80s and early 90s…no adverts (in recent years it advertises its own shows etc..which are still adverts), no social-engineering agenda, it’s tone was a calm reassuring and moderate authority, and it HAD all the sports with good commentary!
		
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I grew up watching the golf on BBC - Masters , The Open and The World Matchplay- it was very nice but it was also very limited , can’t ever remember watch the US Open or the USPGA

Or away test series in cricket , only one live football match a week 

No club rugby on Telly 

No international sports on Telly 

It was all very limited 

Subscription Tv came along - it gave you more choice , enabled people to see events they have never seen live before and overall it improved the professionalism of many of the sports 

Thankfully there are still some Crown Jewels on terrestrial Telly


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## 4LEX (Aug 2, 2022)

Crow said:



			Seems people are happy to pay around £1,000 a year for Sky and yet I often hear people moaning about paying £159 for a TV Licence.

Just think how great the BBC would be if the Licence was £1,000 a year, more channels, the ability to bid for sports broadcast, and no adverts. 

Click to expand...

I'd rather pay £5000 to Sky than 5p to the BBC. 

The BBC had the power to dominate everything and frittered it away. Their inward thinking created Sky and Pay per view. They destroyed progress for decades. Complacency and arrogance only ends one way. The BBC will be finished in 5 years.


----------



## HomecountiesJohn (Aug 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Absolutely, you think it's value, I think it's extortionate, neither one of us is right or wrong, but, when you are currently able to watch some of the worlds highest profile golfers play golf, for free, then it devalues the packages that Sky are offering.
		
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No it doesn't, I dont subscribe to Sky just for Golf.

I watch a lot of other sport and missing out on the LIV tour doesnt bother me one bit.


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## RRidges (Aug 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			Is interesting how we have different preferences and views 👍
Personally I found the most recent one had moved to be more similar to the regular broadcasts. There seemed to be a lot more coverage of players walking about & faffing around, where I'd have preferred they cut away for some golf shots and come back when ready. Also seemed to be showing more the holing out of 18 inch putts.
Anyway maybe this thread will slow down for a few weeks....
		
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I agree. Feherty's casual commentary style has been a positive influence imo. Still areas to hate, but I'd be re-repeating myself. The team concept s simply  and is THE thing that prevents me enjoying it - because of commentators emphasis! The format I can take or leave. It virtually disappears on the last day anyway, so simply a differentiating exercise.


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## RRidges (Aug 2, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I'd rather pay £5000 to Sky than 5p to the BBC.

The BBC had the power to dominate everything and frittered it away. Their inward thinking created Sky and Pay per view. They destroyed progress for decades. Complacency and arrogance only ends one way. *The BBC will be finished in 5 years*.
		
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I'd be prepared to bet £5000 that that won't happen!


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## Val (Aug 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Who actually watches PGA Tour golf tournaments?
If they do I would bet it’s almost solely the last round, and for a couple of hours at most…and then only very occasionally?

I would expect that the overwhelming bulk of golf viewing is the Majors and the Ryder Cup, and only then perhaps the Players at a distance behind

I’m pretty sure that two of the biggest supporters of the PGA Tour on this thread agreed that they rarely watched it
		
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Watch it every week and not just Sunday night. Always find it enjoyable.


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## Crow (Aug 2, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I'd rather pay £5000 to Sky than 5p to the BBC.

The BBC had the power to dominate everything and frittered it away. Their inward thinking created Sky and Pay per view. They destroyed progress for decades. Complacency and arrogance only ends one way. The BBC will be finished in 5 years.
		
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I think you need to swot up on your history.


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## RRidges (Aug 2, 2022)

Crow said:



			I think you need to swot up on your history.
		
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Spoilsport!


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## DaveR (Aug 3, 2022)

Crow said:



			Seems people are happy to pay around £1,000 a year for Sky and yet I often hear people moaning about paying £1000 for their annual subs
		
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Fixed that for you. Strange how people are prepared to pay as much to watch golf as they are to play golf.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Fixed that for you. Strange how people are prepared to pay as much to watch golf as they are to play golf.
		
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As has already been pointed out, it’s not just golf.  I have NowTV Sport which costs about £25 pm with deals. Which I consider very good value for the amount of sports I can watch.

 I can also watch it on my phone and iPad. 

If you really want the cost can be shared between 2 or 3 people.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 3, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I'd rather pay £5000 to Sky than 5p to the BBC.

The BBC had the power to dominate everything and frittered it away. Their inward thinking created Sky and Pay per view. They destroyed progress for decades. Complacency and arrogance only ends one way. The BBC will be finished in 5 years.
		
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Can you please explain how the BBC had the power to dominate our airwaves (assume you didn't mean literally everything) when their income has been severely limited by Government?  There is just no way under the restrictions they work under could they now or ever have competed with SKY.


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## Val (Aug 3, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Fixed that for you. Strange how people are prepared to pay as much to watch golf as they are to play golf.
		
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It's weird that you think you can get a golf only TV subscription for a grand a year.


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## sweaty sock (Aug 3, 2022)

Wow, just saw a load of LIV with Tucker Carlson.  Sorry but anyone or anything that gives that bloke oxygen is dead to me.

Long live the PGA!


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## Imurg (Aug 3, 2022)

DL3 saying that if LIv players sue to be able to play on the PGA then the rest of the PGA players "simply won't play with them".


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## Leftitshort (Aug 3, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Wow, just saw a load of LIV with Tucker Carlson.  Sorry but anyone or anything that gives that bloke oxygen is dead to me.

Long live the PGA!
		
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 If you’re struggling to work out which side of the argument to choose, always choose the opposite to Trump and his mates


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## evemccc (Aug 3, 2022)

Imurg said:



			DL3 saying that if LIv players sue to be able to play on the PGA then the rest of the PGA players "simply won't play with them".
		
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I feel that may be wishful thinking…there are plenty of PGA tour players who ordinarily live with the threat of losing their card, and lots of extremely talented, young, no-name players on the PGA tour willing to fill their spots…. and plenty on the KF Tour who’d like their shot

If I understand correctly, if PGA Tour players like JT, Rory and Max Homa etc boycott events because LIV players are playing, they’re only going to harm their own tour and it’s ability to generate max sponsorship dollars down the road


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## Backsticks (Aug 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I feel that may be wishful thinking…there are plenty of PGA tour players who ordinarily live with the threat of losing their card, and lots of extremely talented, young, no-name players on the PGA tour willing to fill their spots…. and plenty on the KF Tour who’d like their shot

If I understand correctly, if PGA Tour players like JT, Rory and Max Homa etc boycott events because LIV players are playing, they’re only going to harm their own tour and it’s ability to generate max sponsorship dollars down the road
		
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Not sure where such a move would get Rory and Co either. Would it then be a pgat event, filled with....LIV players ? So a 72 hole no shotgun LIV tournament badged as a pgat tour one.
And to the sponsors, they would be saying that they aren't playing because there would be a half dozen players (DJ, Bryson, ) the sponsor would love to have anyway.
No sense to that move.


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## Orikoru (Aug 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I feel that may be wishful thinking…there are plenty of PGA tour players who ordinarily live with the threat of losing their card, and lots of extremely talented, young, no-name players on the PGA tour willing to fill their spots…. and plenty on the KF Tour who’d like their shot

If I understand correctly, if PGA Tour players like JT, Rory and Max Homa etc boycott events because LIV players are playing, they’re only going to harm their own tour and it’s ability to generate max sponsorship dollars down the road
		
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If they lose their place in the PGA due to the boycotting, at least they can always join LIV.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			If you’re struggling to work out which side of the argument to choose, always choose the opposite to Trump and his mates
		
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When Trump is leading the fans in a political chant at a golf event. I’ve seen everything I need to know about the people involved and that it’s not for me.


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## Imurg (Aug 3, 2022)

I'd like to have a bit of what Bryson's been having on his pizza..on my pizza.....


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

Quite a few of the Liv players who said the attraction of Liv was playing less and spending more time with their family's have signed up to 2 events on the Asian Circiut in Singapore and Korea in August 🤔🤔🤔

Suppose they will be falling back on the "we are growing the game" tagine now then...


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## Beezerk (Aug 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Suppose they will be falling back on the "we are growing the game" tagine now then...
		
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Yeah but I bet it tastes great though 😂😉


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 3, 2022)

Lawsuit apparently filed by a group of the LIV players against the PGA Tour. Interesting that DJ and Brooks aren't in the list of players.





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554877743996747776


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## Imurg (Aug 3, 2022)

And some have applied for restraining orders to allow them to play in the FedEx playoffs........so now they want to play more golf..?


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lawsuit apparently filed by a group of the LIV players against the PGA Tour. Interesting that DJ and Brooks aren't in the list of players.

View attachment 43692



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554877743996747776

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Didn't a number resign their membership,  so guess they wouldn't be on it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lawsuit apparently filed by a group of the LIV players against the PGA Tour. Interesting that DJ and Brooks aren't in the list of players.

View attachment 43692



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554877743996747776

Click to expand...


How many events do they want to play ? 

What are they actually suing for ? To be able to play in the events that they pick ? 

Or they want their tour membership back along with their LIV membership and Asian Tour membership and ET membership 🤷‍♂️

Seems like they just want everything their way


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And some have applied for restraining orders to allow them to play in the FedEx playoffs........so now they want to play more golf..?
		
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Asked before but there were no replies, apart from Reed did any other players actually say they wished to play less?
I certainly speculated it may be a reason to jump as did some media


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

So, they want to have their pizza and eat it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902387298549763

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902037418098688


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## Imurg (Aug 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			Asked before but there were no replies, apart from Reed did any other players actually say they wished to play less?
I certainly speculated it may be a reason to jump as did some media
		
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I'm sure plenty of them said they wanted to spend more time with their families....= play less....


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many events do they want to play ?

What are they actually suing for ? To be able to play in the events that they pick ?

Or they want their tour membership back along with their LIV membership and Asian Tour membership and ET membership 🤷‍♂️

Seems like they just want everything their way
		
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Wonder if in part is about trying to argue a principle via the courts? Maybe they think  the average Joe in the US will view as individuals against a big Corp.(not saying I do). Personally I think they should stay away and play the Asian events as you mentioned.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

As predicted, the lawyers are about to get very rich.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 3, 2022)

Monahon has written a letter to the TOUR players, 

He's out of his depth....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902037418098688


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			Wonder if in part is about trying to argue a principle via the courts? Maybe they think  the average Joe in the US will view as individuals against a big Corp.(not saying I do). Personally I think they should stay away and play the Asian events as you mentioned.
		
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it’s strange - the players have left to join another tour because ultimately it’s going to earn them more money , that’s fair enough but now they because there’s are no Liv events for a while they want to come back and play PGA tour events - the same tour they left 🤷‍♂️


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

I have to say that if you joined Liv you shouldn't expect to walk back onto the PGA or DP Tour without some repercussions or bad feeling/response. 

I guess they are all in on the Greg Norman "Were independent contractors" argument"

They knew the consequences of there actions when they left...


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I have to say that if you joined Liv you shouldn't expect to walk back onto the PGA or DP Tour without some repercussions or bad feeling/response.

I guess they are all in on the Greg Norman "Were independent contractors" argument"

They knew the consequences of there actions when they left...
		
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I’m guessing if they are “independent contractors” that means any tour can cancel a contract or not take up a contract with a player 🤷‍♂️

Seems the players are also wanting compensation as well - are they not getting enough money 🤷‍♂️


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## Beezerk (Aug 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			it’s strange - the players have left to join another tour because ultimately it’s going to earn them more money , that’s fair enough but now they because there’s are no Liv events for a while they want to come back and play PGA tour events - the same tour they left 🤷‍♂️
		
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I’m pretty certain a lot of these moves by golfers will have been well planned and thoroughly thought through. It’s one big game of chess and that includes the extremely well advised players.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

I'm pretty sure both sides have had lawyers look at the regulations and the liv players interpret those as giving them a case otherwise the action wouldnt have been actioned.

Also read somewhere that PIF is happy to fund these legal actions on behalf of the players..

If so...
The players will surely feel sod it let's roll the dice?????


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I'm pretty sure both sides have had lawyers look at the regulations and the liv players interpret those as giving them a case otherwise the action wouldnt have been actioned.

Also read somewhere that PIF is happy to fund these legal actions on behalf of the players..

If so...
The players will surely feel sod it let's roll the dice?????
		
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It is interesting that the likes of DJ have just gone - thanks for a great time PGA Tour but I’m going to do something different , he is happy with his lot ? 

Are the others worried they may not last long on the LIV


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahon has written a letter to the TOUR players,

*He's out of his depth....*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902037418098688

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How so?


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

The full legal document for those who have the stomach for 106 pages

https://t.co/JRwJTm2Qxu


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahon has written a letter to the TOUR players,

He's out of his depth....
		
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I doubt it!
But the lawyers will get richer!


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## JamesR (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahon has written a letter to the TOUR players, 

He's out of his depth....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902037418098688

Click to expand...

In the opinion of an expert in what?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Monahon has written a letter to the TOUR players,

He's out of his depth....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554902037418098688

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How is he out of his depth ?

What else do you expect the CEO of the PGA tour to do ?

It also seems that Mickleson was suspended for trying to recruit players - thats typical Mickleson


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			How so?
		
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Does it strike you as a letter written by man who is in control of a multi-billion per annum organisation?

"Hey guys - help me out here and voice your displeasure on social media".


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## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Does it strike you as a letter written by man who is in control of a multi-billion per annum organisation?

"Hey guys - help me out here and voice your displeasure on social media".
		
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Where in the letter did it say that?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where in the letter did it say that?
		
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Last paragraph.


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## JamesR (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Does it strike you as a letter written by man who is in control of a multi-billion per annum organisation?

"Hey guys - help me out here and voice your displeasure on social media".
		
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Yes, it’s very professional


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Last paragraph.
		
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Kindly quote the actual wording or withdraw your interpretation/assertion! @PhilTheFragger


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

Make no mistake the result of this lawsuit is absolutely massive..

Liv Players lose and they just crack on with playing the Liv Tour and hope the world ranking points ger awarded to Liv events to gain access to majors (unless majors change the qualifying criteria) 

Liv Players win and the whole golf landscape changes forever and the 💩 well and truly hits the fan..


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where in the letter did it say that?
		
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It doesn't; it invites them to speak out publicly if they agree, it makes no mention of social media.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 3, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			It doesn't; it invites them to speak out publicly if they agree, it makes no mention of social media.
		
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Do you mean like this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554928116392419328


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 3, 2022)

Not sure if it's been mentioned on here yet but golf channel reporting it's going to take a mimimum of 12 months for a decision on Liv getting world ranking points.


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2022)

Val said:



			It's weird that you think you can get a golf only TV subscription for a grand a year.
		
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Now TV offers all 11 Sky Sport channels - even Prem League (and Scottish) Football and Golf for around £400. 60 devices, including TV.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Not sure if it's been mentioned on here yet but golf channel reporting it's going to take a mimimum of 12 months for a decision on Liv getting world ranking points.
		
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I read that a tour has to have been in operation for at least a year before it can be considered for world ranking points. I think that there are also other obstacles to LIV getting ranking points such as being invitational rather than players qualifying, no cut and only 54 holes rather than 72. There could be others that I haven't remembered.


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## Val (Aug 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Now TV offers all 11 Sky Sport channels - even Prem League (and Scottish) Football and Golf for around £400. 60 devices, including TV.
		
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Not even that high, there's an offer kicking around currently at £19.99 a month for sports for a year. 3 devices


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I read that a tour has to have been in operation for at least a year before it can be considered for world ranking points. I think that there are also other obstacles to LIV getting ranking points such as being invitational rather than players qualifying, no cut and only 54 holes rather than 72. There could be others that I haven't remembered.
		
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Some info here...
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/saudi-super-league.111261/post-2530049


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Phil the Thrill is stepping away from the game for a while

The below is an interesting read from Alan Shipnuck whose interview/biography chat with Mickelson derailed the Saudi Golf League

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition/

Click to expand...

Going back to the OP, now it is in the open that Phil was suspended (reported now to be in March), what the order of events were....


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2022)

Val said:



			Not even that high, there's an offer kicking around currently at £19.99 a month for sports for a year. 3 devices
		
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Agreed! I've had that offer and just need to confirm that it includes Golf
Either way, your post 5047 was simply wrong!


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## Wilson (Aug 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Not sure if it's been mentioned on here yet but golf channel reporting it's going to take a mimimum of 12 months for a decision on Liv getting world ranking points.
		
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I'm sure I saw a graphic that showed by that time, most of the LIV players would be outside the top 50, so unless they had another qualification method they would be out of the Majors.


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## Slab (Aug 4, 2022)

I pointed out at the time Poulter did this to the ET (& no one disagreed then)… Surely no one expects the pgat to be above or to exclude itself from any appeals process by its current/former members?

*I hope the liv guys fail in their action*, but they absolutely have the right to question the validity, appropriateness & scale of the pgat actions. The pgat should not fear this (assuming they have acted correctly) Without the right to appeal it would mean the pgat tour could issue sanctions/suspensions to JT/Rory et al for doing or saying xyz and even if everyone else thinks its totally unwarranted the players wouldn’t be able to challenge it… you can’t have a part time appeal process based on public/private opinions


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## IainP (Aug 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			it’s strange - the players have left to join another tour because ultimately it’s going to earn them more money , that’s fair enough but now they because there’s are no Liv events for a while they want to come back and play PGA tour events - the same tour they left 🤷‍♂️
		
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The beeb are reporting:
Gooch, Swafford and Jones are requesting temporary relief to allow them to compete in the FedEx Cup play-offs, which start next week.

Seems a mixed bag with different players pushing for different things. Messy.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

Slab said:



			I pointed out at the time Poulter did this to the ET (& no one disagreed then)… Surely no one expects the pgat to be above or to exclude itself from any appeals process by its current/former members?

*I hope the liv guys fail in their action*, but they absolutely have the right to question the validity, appropriateness & scale of the pgat actions. The pgat should not fear this (assuming they have acted correctly) Without the right to appeal it would mean the pgat tour could issue sanctions/suspensions to JT/Rory et al for doing or saying xyz and even if everyone else thinks its totally unwarranted the players wouldn’t be able to challenge it… you can’t have a part time appeal process based on public/private opinions
		
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Agreed. It's just a bit surprising that it has taken so long. Though LIV now having a 'stable'/full crew and having no tournament for a while has probably been a factor in the timing.


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## Slab (Aug 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed. It's just a bit surprising that it has taken so long. Though LIV now having a 'stable'/full crew and having no tournament for a while has probably been a factor in the timing.
		
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Yeah Poulter 'timed it perfectly' for the Scottish open, and again if he fails in that challenge and his punishment has merely been postponed that's fine with me. The ET (and pgat) cant pick and choose when a punishment has the maximum effect by not affording the other parties access to the full process. 
So if the players who were eligible for the fed-ex cup happen to have their indefinite tournament suspension suspended until its challenged through that due process that's fine too, however unpalatable that might be to other players, us fans, or the pgat itself. They (& we) need to suck it up, that's just the business they are in


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## Springveldt (Aug 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Yes, it’s very professional
		
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Almost. The fact he keeps calling it the Saudi Golf League is pretty unprofessional and frankly a bit petty. That’s not it’s name, he’s just using that to drum up emotions imho.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 4, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Almost. The fact he keeps calling it the Saudi Golf League is pretty unprofessional and frankly a bit petty. That’s not it’s name, he’s just using that to drum up emotions imho.
		
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Yes I agree with that.
Have the class to refer to it by its proper name..


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## Backsticks (Aug 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes I agree with that.
Have the class to refer to it by its proper name..
		
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Their goal is to grow the game of golf though, so I assume most of the tournaments will be in Saudi Arabia, the broader middle East, or other regions like probably Sri Lanka and Costa Rica where golf has yet to really develop. They will likely drop the London, New Jersey and Detroit type venues altogether where golf is well developed, once they get the proper Saudi based tournaments up and running and into the schedule.


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## IainP (Aug 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes I agree with that.
Have the class to refer to it by its proper name..
		
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I'm a bit surprised the Golf Monthly team haven't changed the thread title! 😉😁


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'm a bit surprised the Golf Monthly team haven't changed the thread title! 😉😁
		
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As if by magic 😎


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 4, 2022)

Via Golf Channel

Players anti trust lawsuit will take years of litigation. 
In the meantime according to expert lawyer on the program a very good chance players named in the case will get injunction relief to enter Fed Ex playoffs if they qualify and I guess PGA Tour events till the case is concluded.

Was always going to get messy but its about to get really messy/ even nasty if that comes to pass..


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## JamesR (Aug 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Via Golf Channel

Players anti trust lawsuit will take years of litigation.
In the meantime according to expert lawyer on the program a very good chance players named in the case will get injunction relief to enter Fed Ex playoffs if they qualify and I guess PGA Tour events till the case is concluded.

Was always going to get messy but its about to get really messy/ even nasty if that comes to pass..







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Would any have enough points to qualify this yr?


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## GB72 (Aug 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Would any have enough points to qualify this yr?
		
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That could get even more messy as, if the courts found in favour of the LIV golfers then their case could include damages for losses from being denied entry to events to allow them to qualify. Not saying it will happen (I think it highly unlikely) but you pile enough potential damages into a law suit and then push for it it settle based simply on the LIV golfers being allowed to compete on the PGA Tour. Clever strategy potentially.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Would any have enough points to qualify this yr?
		
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Think three of them already have enough points. Taylor Cooch is one I think


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2022)

Even if the LIV players win their case, I think they will be losers anyway (at least in terms of playing tours outside LIV). I just can't imagine it will be a lot of fun for them playing on the PGA Tour when they know for a fact that the people that run the PGA Tour simply don't want them there. There'll be some very awkward moments when they bump into each other around the venues


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## evemccc (Aug 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Even if the LIV players win their case, I think they will be losers anyway (at least in terms of playing tours outside LIV). I just can't imagine it will be a lot of fun for them playing on the PGA Tour when they know for a fact that the people that run the PGA Tour simply don't want them there. There'll be some very awkward moments when they bump into each other around the venues
		
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There will be zero coverage of them unless they’re challenging and I reckon there will be scant coverage even if they are


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## Springveldt (Aug 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Even if the LIV players win their case, I think they will be losers anyway (at least in terms of playing tours outside LIV). I just can't imagine it will be a lot of fun for them playing on the PGA Tour when they know for a fact that the people that run the PGA Tour simply don't want them there. There'll be some very awkward moments when they bump into each other around the venues
		
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Awkward or not they will still have the right to play there. Also a lot of money on offer and as the LIV guys have shown, that’s #1 for them.


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## Slab (Aug 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Even if the LIV players win their case, I think they will be losers anyway (at least in terms of playing tours outside LIV). I just can't imagine it will be a lot of fun for them playing on the PGA Tour when they know for a fact that the people that run the PGA Tour simply don't want them there. There'll be some very awkward moments when they bump into each other around the venues
		
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Always assuming they actually attended of course. Maybe they're just seeking their (perceived) 'right' to choose whether to play in a pgat event


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 4, 2022)

I agree that it should not be called "the Saudi Golf League". I prefer "the Bone Saw Tour".


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## evemccc (Aug 4, 2022)

With the amount of coverage the LIV golfers, and therefore golf, has got, I would hope that this is recognised in the PIP payouts this year…..certainly those names have ‘moved the needle’ and generated plenty of social media engagement around golf 

Or am I missing something?!🤣

#growingthegame
#movingtheneedle


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 4, 2022)

GB72 said:



			That could get even more messy as, if the courts found in favour of the LIV golfers then their case could include damages for losses from being denied entry to events to allow them to qualify. Not saying it will happen (I think it highly unlikely) but you pile enough potential damages into a law suit and then push for it it settle based simply on the LIV golfers being allowed to compete on the PGA Tour. Clever strategy potentially.
		
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Yes if they win this lawsuit they will gain the access to play the PGA Tour events and UNBELIEVABLY claim for loss of earnings and potentially world ranking points..

This is a seminal moment for the world of professional golf..

Mickleson said right at the beginning  it gave them the lever to leverage the PGA Tour and all those players have their hand on that lever right now..


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## Beezerk (Aug 4, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I agree that it should not be called "the Saudi Golf League". I prefer "the Bone Saw Tour".
		
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Does that mean we can call the PGA the Bigot Tour? 😬😂


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

GB72 said:



			That could get even more messy as, if the courts found in favour of the LIV golfers then their case could include damages for losses from being denied entry to events to allow them to qualify. Not saying it will happen (I think it highly unlikely) but you pile enough potential damages into a law suit and then push for it it settle based simply on the LIV golfers being allowed to compete on the PGA Tour. Clever strategy potentially.
		
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That's why (the tactical approach) they are requesting an injunction that allows them to play pending resolution. I suspect that, given the consequences of denial, then a subsequent court win, an injunction will be allowed. LIV has also apparently picked a 'sympathetic' court.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 4, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Does that mean we can call the PGA the Bigot Tour? 😬😂
		
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Hah!


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## BTatHome (Aug 4, 2022)

Why does everyone always mention the LIV tour players as being money grabbing, like when they were playing the PGA Tour they did it for free and the adulation only? Come on, surely when golfers start playing for million dollar purses, and not entering every event available then they are choosing to chase the money, even if its the PGA tour. 

interesting to see the words used by the pga tour press release. when talking about pga tour players they are "members", but when they leave they have become employees of the LIV tour !


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Awkward or not they will still have the right to play there. Also a lot of money on offer and as the LIV guys have shown, that’s #1 for them.
		
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I'm not making any comments on their rights or not. I've not read the small print to have an expert opinion either way. We can let the lawyers figure that one out.

I'm simply saying that, regardless of what their main motivations are for doing anything, they are still human beings. They may be picking up huge sums of money from LIV, but even if they get their wish of playing on the PGA Tour again, the price they pay will continue to be the complete breakdown of relations between themselves and many on the PGA Tour (not just the players on the PGA Tour). Going back before all this kicked off, the likes of Phil Mickleson would have been one of the darlings of the PGA. I'm sure many hugely respected him, they'd roll out the red carpet for him, so to speak. Many of the other top players would have been well respected, and treated accordingly as they went about their business (their lives do not stop when they finish their round and no longer on our TV screens). So, if they do get back on the PGA Tour, I was simply saying that life will not go back to what they had been used to. Things will be a lot colder between many other people.

They'll still be pocketing their cash, and living lives we could only dream off. So I'm not feeling sorry for them. It might just be a niggling irritation that they know many people around them no longer respect or treat them anywhere near the way they used to.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Why does everyone always mention the LIV tour players as being money grabbing...
		
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Probably because it was the money on offer that convinced them to move! Any other motives are either 2ndry or related to the money!


BTatHome said:



			...
interesting to see the words used by the pga tour press release. when talking about pga tour players they are "members", but when they leave they have become employees of the LIV tour !
		
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The PGAT reference as 'members' is entirely reasonable, because that's what they are! PGAT membership for those who went to LIV has been suspended. I'm not certain of their status with LIV. I suspect they are not 'employees' in the legal definition - but re, as they were with TPGAT, independent contractors.


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## slowhand (Aug 4, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			interesting to see the words used by the pga tour press release. when talking about pga tour players they are "members", but when they leave they have become employees of the LIV tour !
		
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That's because the PGA Tour is a member's organisation (kind of like a cooperative). The LIV players are all under contract to the league. They are paid and required to play all the events in the schedule, so can in some sense be compared to employees. PGA members are not required to play any particular tournaments, as long as they fulfil the 15 event minimum (unless lifetime exempt)


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 4, 2022)

slowhand said:



			PGA members are not required to play any particular tournaments, as long as they fulfil the 15 event minimum (unless lifetime exempt)
		
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That has been tweaked slightly I think. Certain golfers, the more popular ones, are required to play in a tournament that they have not taken part in during the last 4 years. The idea being to make sure the smaller, less attractive comps are not completely ignored by the big boys. I can't discover what rankings this relates to but it does seem to be a thing.


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## Robster59 (Aug 4, 2022)

On a thought process.  If I left my job and went to another one that paid me more money, would my old company allow me to go back to their place and use their facilities, etc.?


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## slowhand (Aug 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That has been tweaked slightly I think. Certain golfers, the more popular ones, are required to play in a tournament that they have not taken part in during the last 4 years. The idea being to make sure the smaller, less attractive comps are not completely ignored by the big boys. I can't discover what rankings this relates to but it does seem to be a thing.
		
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I think that rule applies to all the tour members, but the aim is, as you say, to get some of the bigger names to tournaments they may otherwise have skipped


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## Val (Aug 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed! I've had that offer and just need to confirm that it includes Golf
Either way, your post 5047 was simply wrong!
		
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What's wrong about it? I'm merely suggesting it's weird someone thinks it costs £1000k a year to watch golf.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 4, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			On a thought process.  If I left my job and went to another one that paid me more money, would my old company allow me to go back to their place and use their facilities, etc.?
		
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Not sure, but I doubt your old company would pay you


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 4, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			On a thought process.  If I left my job and went to another one that paid me more money, would my old company allow me to go back to their place and use their facilities, etc.?
		
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Golfers don't uniquely play on one tour though. Quite a number already play on a couple of tours so the analogy doesn't quite fit. The template of flitting around tours is already set out.

As we also keep hearing, the PGA do not employ them in the way your old company employed you. They are contractors, popping in and out.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 4, 2022)

The job analogy is fundamentally flawed, still, hasn't stopped it being brought up about thirty times on this thread.

At least we're not talking about how the players have no motivation cos there's no cut, and they are guaranteed to get paid _something,_ even though that also applies to every player making the cut at any tour event.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The job analogy is fundamentally flawed, still, hasn't stopped it being brought up about thirty times on this thread.
...
		
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And I'm certain it will be in the court case! It, or the contract, is extremely relevant; just a bit awkward from a LIV point of view!


Mel Smooth said:



			...
At least we're not talking about how the players have no motivation cos *there's no cut*, and they are guaranteed to get paid _something,_ even though that also applies to *every player making the cut* at any tour event.
		
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What a ridiculously stupid statement! Even by your recent 'standard'!


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 4, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Why does everyone always mention the LIV tour players as being money grabbing, like when they were playing the PGA Tour they did it for free and the adulation only? Come on, surely when golfers start playing for million dollar purses, and not entering every event available then they are choosing to chase the money, even if its the PGA tour.
		
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Because PGA Tour members are not guaranteed money.  They have earned the right to play with the opportunity to win money based on their performance; LIV Tour players have received money for signing on, which I believe the PGA Tour members don't get, & they win money at each tournament for finishing last, which I believe PGA Tour players don't get.



BTatHome said:



			interesting to see the words used by the pga tour press release. when talking about pga tour players they are "members", but when they leave they have become employees of the LIV tour !
		
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Employees are paid workers for their company.  LIV have paid these players to turn up and play.  They're employees.  It's not difficult.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Employees are paid workers for their company.  LIV have paid these players to turn up and play.  They're employees.  It's not difficult.
		
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While it's more likely that LIV players will be employees, it will still depend on the actual contract as to whether they are deemed employers or, like PGAT players, independent contractors.

And something that most on here don't seem to realised - or at least haven't mentioned - is that the lawsuit is an Antitrust one, not an Employment one. The employment status of players is largely irrelevant to such a lawsuit. It's how the *defendant* (The PGA Tour) has acted (e.g Monopolistically or as a Cartel) that is the key argument to be ruled on.


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## JamesR (Aug 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Golfers don't uniquely play on one tour though. Quite a number already play on a couple of tours so the analogy doesn't quite fit. The template of flitting around tours is already set out.

As we also keep hearing, the PGA do not employ them in the way your old company employed you. They are contractors, popping in and out.
		
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But they sign contracts to play the pga tour, & therefore should stick to the conditions of that contract.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			But they sign contracts to play the pga tour, & therefore should stick to the conditions of that contract.
		
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My post related to a specific comparison. 

The contract aspect is one that is going to be tested it seems. No longer on forums but in court.


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## BTatHome (Aug 4, 2022)

So when a player is asked to play a specific tournament, and is given an appearance fee then their status is no longer a member ?


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			So when a player is asked to play a specific tournament, and is given an appearance fee then their status is no longer a member ?
		
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Maybe; maybe not! It depends on how they are 'asked'. Any Appearance Fee, or other incentive, is pretty much irrelevant.


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## BTatHome (Aug 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Golfers don't uniquely play on one tour though. Quite a number already play on a couple of tours so the analogy doesn't quite fit. The template of flitting around tours is already set out.
		
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It appears that you can only play other tours when PGA tour allows it though

I seem to remember someone (a player) saying that playing elsewhere without approval from the tour was not allowed, except they had occasions when approval wasn't granted (or asked), and yet no sanctions were brought against them. I guess that'll be brought up in the courts too (will try and find out who said that)[/QUOTE]


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 4, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			So when a player is asked to play a specific tournament, and is given an appearance fee then their status is no longer a member ?
		
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Those that play on the PGAT are called members because like a member of a golf club,  they have a say in how the organisation is run.  In that way it differs vastly from LIV,  where PIV control everything.  This seems to be a point missed completely on this thread.  Those players who have a gripe against the PGAT,  essentially have lost the argument within the PGAT membership and are now throwing their dollies out.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Those that play on the PGAT are called members because like a member of a golf club,  they have a say in how the organisation is run.  In that way it differs vastly from LIV,  where PIV control everything.  This seems to be a point missed completely on this thread.  Those players who have a gripe against the PGAT,  essentially have lost the argument within the PGAT membership and are now throwing their dollies out.
		
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That may be the case, but is irrelevant to the Antitrust lawsuit - that is solely about The PGA Tour!


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That may be the case, but is irrelevant to the Antitrust lawsuit - that is solely about The PGA Tour!
		
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I'm not sure I said it was.


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## Foxholer (Aug 4, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I'm not sure I said it was.
		
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Agreed. I'm just tying to clarify what the lawsuit is actually about - and it ain't LIV! LIV was/is only the cause/trigger.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed. I'm just tying to clarify what the lawsuit is actually about - and it ain't LIV! LIV was/is only the cause/trigger.
		
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Having re-read what I said and listened to a couple of PGAT players,  it had everything to do with the Lawsuit.  LIV players are the plaintiffs against the PGAT which effectively means they are taking their fellow players through the court,  given that the PGAT is a member won't organisation,  which is the real point I was trying to make.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 5, 2022)

Wait while we get to watch all thims on the Netflix documentary.

I see there's been a couple of PGA guys come out in support of Monahon (like he asked them to in his letter), but are any of the big hitters offering any opinion, I know Rory said recently that a lot of the LIV guys are his friends, and I guess that will apply to a lot of the players on the tours.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Having re-read what I said and listened to a couple of PGAT players,  it had everything to do with the Lawsuit.  LIV players are the plaintiffs against the PGAT *which effectively means they are taking their fellow players through the court*,  given that the PGAT is a member won't organisation,  which is the real point I was trying to make.
		
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No it doesn't! Though they may feel that it does.
As an independent contractor myself, for getting near to 30 years, I had little/no actual allegiance to the company I worked for - and they had little/no allegiance to me. It's a little 'closer' for players than my relationship was, given that if The PGAT suffers, they are likely to suffer. But still legally the same. *The key is who is being sued* - and it's not players. They simply have a vested interested in the outcome.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No it doesn't! Though they may feel that it does.
As an independent contractor myself, for getting near to 30 years, I had little/no actual allegiance to the company I worked for - and they had little/no allegiance to me. It's a little 'closer' for players than my relationship was, given that if The PGAT suffers, they are likely to suffer. But still legally the same. *The key is who is being sued* - and it's not players. They simply have a vested interested in the outcome.
		
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But the PGAT is not a company in the normal sense but a not for profit organisation wholly owned by the members of the PGAT.  So the players have more than a vested interest in the outcome.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			But the PGAT is not a company in the normal sense but a not for profit organisation *wholly owned by the members of the PGAT*.  So the players have more than a vested interest in the outcome.
		
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Are you sure about that? I can't find any documentation that that is the case. It's definitely a 501C NFP company though - as demonstrated by its filings.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Are you sure about that? I can't find any documentation that that is the case. It's definitely a 501C NFP company though - as demonstrated by its filings.
		
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Perhaps owned is not the correct term,  given that NFP status means there are no shares to buy or sell and no profit/losses to again/lose.  Players do though make up a large percentage if the board and therefore have a great say in how it runs.  In any case the costs of the court case incurred by the PGAT will ultimately have to be paid by the players, through lower prize winnings,  as their is no one else to pay.


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## Backsticks (Aug 5, 2022)

PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M.  Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M.  Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.
		
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It's a pretty large organisation! Total Revenue in 2020 was $1.16 Billion!


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Perhaps owned is not the correct term,  given that NFP status means there are no shares to buy or sell and no profit/losses to again/lose.  Players do though make up a large percentage if the board and therefore have a great say in how it runs.  In any case the costs of the court case incurred by the PGAT will ultimately have to be paid by the players, through lower prize winnings,  as their is no one else to pay.
		
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Yes, 'owned' is not legally/functionally correct - as far as I can see.
I'm certain there are sufficient 'reserve funds' available to call on. Player payouts would only happen if the organisation is wound up!
There are plenty of sources of revenue to cover ongoing prize money.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Yes, 'owned' is not legally/functionally correct - as far as I can see.
I'm certain there are sufficient 'reserve funds' available to call on. Player payouts would only happen if the organisation is wound up!
There are plenty of sources of revenue to cover ongoing prize money.
		
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Yes in the short term costs will come from reserves. Reserves though are held in such organisations for a good reason,  so over time these would have to be made up,  effectively from reduced payouts to players.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Yes in the short term costs will come from reserves. *Reserves though are held in such organisations for a good reason*,  so over time these would have to be made up,  effectively from reduced payouts to players.
		
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Indeed! For situations like this one!
As long as an organisation continues, their 'reserves' are exactly that - reserves! Payouts need not be affected at all


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 5, 2022)

Forgive the long post but it's from Forbes.Com and you have to be a subscriber to read it. Interesting article on the financials of the PGA Tour. 

 LIV IS HERE TO STAY
Phil Mickelson plies on the first hole during the first day of the LIV Golf Invitational at The Centurion Club in St Albans, England, in June.

cConventional wisdom says LIV Golf is the folly of a rich kingdom. But it is not. It is one of the functions of basic economics.

While a lot of attention has been paid to LIV Golf which pays richer wallets and more secured money to golfers than PGA, that is not the reason LIV Golf is here to stay. The PGA acted like a no-nonsense monopoly for many years. It has caused some of its players to grumble about a lack of financial disclosure, pays its executives too much and fails to deliver to its clients, who often don’t even know where their favorite golfers will play.

As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation. Presiger wrote that had he been a Tour player, Monahan’s income would have ranked second in official PGA Tour financial gains, behind Brooks Koepka’s $9.7 million and ahead of Rory McIlroy’s $7.8 million.

In 2020, PGA, a “non-profit” organization, reported a net income of $87 million on revenue of $1.16 billion, with its executives receiving $34 million in compensation. But its annual report offers little to no detail. Since 2013, golfers like Greg Norman (now the commissioner of LIV Golf) have complained about PGA records keeping. “I’ve been asking for an independent review for years to make sure there was complete financial transparency, and it’s never been done,” Norman said.

For golf lovers and sponsors, LIV Golf’s trusty bags have a distinct advantage over PGA’s that exceed dollars and cents. They know who will play in each tournament. As one top golfer recently suggested, create 12 to 14 big events a year where stars are guaranteed, and the tour will look more attractive to sponsors, TV networks, and fans. “The era of maximum playing opportunities must go, and the era of the best against the best must often begin,” the golfer said. LIV Golf also has a different tournament format.

The PGA’s first reaction to LIV Golf was to ban its newly signed members from PGA events and initiate lobbying efforts against the Saudi-backed league. This was a stupid and blatant move of hypocrisy, given that many PGA sponsors do business with Saudi Arabia and that the women's professional golf is backed by Saudi Aramco Energy and Chemicals. The Saudi Public Investment Fund behind LIV Golf also owns a stake in the PGA Tour Fan Shop.


The PGA may have finally woken up from its long slumber. The association just announced that it will increase its prize money to a record $429 million for the 2022-23 season.

The only thing missing from the LIV Golf – albeit a huge piece – is a big media deal. The PGA recently signed nine-year agreements with CBS, NBC, and ESPN+ to broadcast coverage of events through 2030. It is said to be worth $700 million annually, amounting to more than $6 billion over the decades. There is no reason why LIV Golf should not have a similar deal"


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			....
As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation.
...
		
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That's probably less than half the amount a CEO (Monahan's equivalent) in a 'normal' company with that turnover would be compensated!
MLB Commissioner made $11M in 2020; NFL equivalent made $63.9M
And apparently, a sizeable chunk of that 'compensation' is made up of performance bonuses - or at least his predecessor's was.


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## DaveR (Aug 5, 2022)

Val said:



			What's wrong about it? I'm merely suggesting it's weird someone thinks it costs £1000k a year to watch golf.
		
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A lot of people are paying in excess of £100 a month for Sky to watch golf. I don't understand why you find my comment weird but you're entitled to your opinion.


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## Backsticks (Aug 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's probably less than half the amount a CEO (Monahan's equivalent) in a 'normal' company with that turnover would be compensated!
MLB Commissioner made $11M in 2020; NFL equivalent made $63.9M
And apparently, a sizeable chunk of that 'compensation' is made up of performance bonuses - or at least his predecessor's was.
		
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I wouldnt have thought so. I would say he is getting several multiples of the equivalent for other 1.5bn turnover companies.
I think thats the point the article line is trying to highlight, suggesting  his should bracket him as a very special 2nd in the world ranking ceo. But that he isnt.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I wouldnt have thout so. I would say he is getting several multiples of the equivalent for other 1.5bn turnover companies.
I think thats the point the article line is trying to highlight, suggesting  his should bracket him as a very special 2nd in the world ranking ceo. But that he isnt.
		
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Google it/Check Wiki!
I did!


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 5, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Forgive the long post but it's from Forbes.Com and you have to be a subscriber to read it. Interesting article on the financials of the PGA Tour.

LIV IS HERE TO STAY
Phil Mickelson plies on the first hole during the first day of the LIV Golf Invitational at The Centurion Club in St Albans, England, in June.

c*Conventional wisdom says LIV Golf is the folly of a rich kingdom. But it is not. It is one of the functions of basic economics.*

While a lot of attention has been paid to LIV Golf which pays richer wallets and more secured money to golfers than PGA, that is not the reason LIV Golf is here to stay. The PGA acted like a no-nonsense monopoly for many years. It has caused some of its players to grumble about a lack of financial disclosure, pays its executives too much and fails to deliver to its clients, who often don’t even know where their favorite golfers will play.

As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation. Presiger wrote that had he been a Tour player, Monahan’s income would have ranked second in official PGA Tour financial gains, behind Brooks Koepka’s $9.7 million and ahead of Rory McIlroy’s $7.8 million.

In 2020, PGA, a “non-profit” organization, reported a net income of $87 million on revenue of $1.16 billion, with its executives receiving $34 million in compensation. But its annual report offers little to no detail. Since 2013, golfers like Greg Norman (now the commissioner of LIV Golf) have complained about PGA records keeping. “I’ve been asking for an independent review for years to make sure there was complete financial transparency, and it’s never been done,” Norman said.

For golf lovers and sponsors, LIV Golf’s trusty bags have a distinct advantage over PGA’s that exceed dollars and cents. They know who will play in each tournament. As one top golfer recently suggested, create 12 to 14 big events a year where stars are guaranteed, and the tour will look more attractive to sponsors, TV networks, and fans. “The era of maximum playing opportunities must go, and the era of the best against the best must often begin,” the golfer said. LIV Golf also has a different tournament format.

The PGA’s first reaction to LIV Golf was to ban its newly signed members from PGA events and initiate lobbying efforts against the Saudi-backed league. This was a stupid and blatant move of hypocrisy, given that many PGA sponsors do business with Saudi Arabia and that the women's professional golf is backed by Saudi Aramco Energy and Chemicals. The Saudi Public Investment Fund behind LIV Golf also owns a stake in the PGA Tour Fan Shop.


The PGA may have finally woken up from its long slumber. The association just announced that it will increase its prize money to a record $429 million for the 2022-23 season.

The only thing missing from the LIV Golf – albeit a huge piece – is a big media deal. The PGA recently signed nine-year agreements with CBS, NBC, and ESPN+ to broadcast coverage of events through 2030. It is said to be worth $700 million annually, amounting to more than $6 billion over the decades. There is no reason why LIV Golf should not have a similar deal"
		
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For a second I thought we were going to get a fully thought-out idea of what the business plan may look like,  but not just more piffle about how a small number of PGAT do not like playing on that tour and the rewards it offers.  Oh and how an ex-player is demanding to see the tour accounts.  

And in what other organisation would you expect to see the CEO to be earning other than the highest salary within that organisation?


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## HeftyHacker (Aug 6, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			And in what other organisation would you expect to see the CEO to be earning other than the highest salary within that organisation?
		
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I imagine it happens within top level sport quite frequently.

Most premier league football teams will be playing their top earning players more than the CEO's i would have thought.

According to Man Uniteds accounts, Ed Woodward was earning just over £3m a year, which is about 8 times less than the likes of Alexis Sanchez in that same period.


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## RRidges (Aug 6, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I imagine it happens within top level sport quite frequently.

Most premier league football teams will be playing their top earning players more than the CEO's i would have thought.

According to Man Uniteds accounts, Ed Woodward was earning just over £3m a year, which is about 8 times less than the likes of Alexis Sanchez in that same period.
		
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That's simply the 'law of supply an demand' in action.
I'd imagine Ten Hag's salary also exceeds Woodward's, though likely still less than some of the players.


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## howbow88 (Aug 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M.  Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.
		
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There's been a lot of negativity surrounding this and I'm still not really sure why. Being financially prudent is a good thing. Mickelson is looking more and more like a guy who is either insanely greedy for more, or just desperate for cash right now because he is in a financial mess...


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Interesting thread from Handicap 54 here who is reporting some comments made by Ortiz.

Hispanic/Latin Team to be remamed Bulls GC
LIV looking to have a venue in Spain (Valderrama does get a mention in another tweet), and the international series looking to go to Mexico
Vegas and Australia also to be added to the list of venues - with an Australian team in the pipeline.
LIV players have been asked to compete in 2 Asian Tour International Series Events - Ortiz will play Singapore and Hong Kong
He also talks about the business side of the PGA, how their model has been to satisfy businessman rather than in the interests of the game, and said he is enjoying the camararerie of playing the LIV series.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555666819247112192


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Also, it is thought the "Saudi Money" argument is losing traction for the PGA Tour, which given this weekends event sponsors have 5 hotels in Saudi Arabia is not really surprising.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting thread from Handicap 54 here who is reporting some comments made by Ortiz.
...
		
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Wrong!
Just more blatant pushing of/by LIV on social media - including here! The '54' should be a sufficient clue.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Google it/Check Wiki!
I did!
		
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and more than the boss of BP this year and they turnover somewhere near 200x that. A $1.5bn turnover company that earns less than $100m is firmly small potatoes in the capital markets and  $1m comensation would be nearer the mark excluding any share packages


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## Val (Aug 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			A lot of people are paying in excess of £100 a month for Sky to watch golf. I don't understand why you find my comment weird but you're entitled to your opinion.
		
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Well again its weird because it's not true. You are not just getting golf for £100 you get all sports, movies, broadband etc for £100. Sport on its own can be bought for £20 per month, ie a 5th of what you suggest which had been highlighted many times on this thread.

That's not opinion, that's facts.


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## Jigger (Aug 6, 2022)

Val said:



			Well again its weird because it's not true. You are not just getting golf for £100 you get all sports, movies, broadband etc for £100. Sport on its own can be bought for £20 per month, ie a 5th of what you suggest which had been highlighted many times on this thread.

That's not opinion, that's facts.
		
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I reckon sky will be worried as I suspect some of the golf revenues go to buying football rights. If golf goes through the roof in the same way, they will be a bit stuck.


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## theoneandonly (Aug 6, 2022)

Val said:



			Well again its weird because it's not true. You are not just getting golf for £100 you get all sports, movies, broadband etc for £100. Sport on its own can be bought for £20 per month, ie a 5th of what you suggest which had been highlighted many times on this thread.

That's not opinion, that's facts.
		
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20 a month ? Where is that?


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## BrianM (Aug 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			20 a month ? Where is that?
		
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NOW TV, that's what I pay anyway.


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## theoneandonly (Aug 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			NOW TV, that's what I pay anyway.
		
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Oh now TV , yeah that's not bad. Shame they charge extra for HD.


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## Jigger (Aug 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Oh now TV , yeah that's not bad. Shame they charge extra for HD.
		
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I think we only pay £18 for golf on proper sky.


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## theoneandonly (Aug 6, 2022)

Jigger said:



			I think we only pay £18 for golf on proper sky.
		
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Surely thats in addition to the main subscription?


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## Val (Aug 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			20 a month ? Where is that?
		
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Sky have a deal currently adding sports to existing subscription. Now TV also have a stand alone offer for sky sports


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong!
Just more blatant pushing of/by LIV on social media - including here! The '54' should be a sufficient clue.
		
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Why don't you follow the link to the source of the information in that tweet, where you'll find a podcast with Carlos Ortiz, discussing the very points I've mentioned, instead of trying to discredit literally ever single post I make in this topic.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and more than the boss of BP this year and they turnover somewhere near 200x that. ...
		
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Presumably they loss BP made in Q3 21 had something to do with that.
Directly comparing CEO compensation across different industries is hardly a real comparison. My comparison - to other 'commissioners' - was about as similar as possible. It woud be interesting to se what overall GN's compensation is!


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why don't you follow the link to the source of the information in that tweet, where you'll find a podcast with Carlos Ortiz, discussing the very points I've mentioned, instead of trying to discredit literally ever single post I make in this topic.
		
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I've done that enough times to see they were all as I described - merely click-bait for, time-wasting, LIV produced, propaganda.
That's why I suspect your motivation, a direct question about which, you sidestepped! There was no need to re-describe the content of the tweet, so that reinforces my view (bias if you wish).


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I've done that enough times to see they were all as I described - merely click-bait for, time-wasting, LIV produced, propaganda.
That's why I suspect your motivation, a direct question about which, you sidestepped!
		
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Go on, which question have I sidestepped?


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## Beezerk (Aug 6, 2022)

Val said:



			Sky have a deal currently adding sports to existing subscription. Now TV also have a stand alone offer for sky sports
		
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Yes, I got the same email, was tempted but my Firestick is working perfectly 👌


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Go on, which question have I sidestepped?
		
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PNWokingham's one in 5015


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			PNWokingham's one in 5015
		
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I've answered this question loads of times mate, even when it was directed to me privately via an admin (obviously after some loser somebody had prompted them on the matter)

What do you think Foxholer, you've checked out my Twitter account, you seem pretty concerned with all my views on here.... Am I on the LIV payroll, or am I just a guy that enjoys watching as much golf as I have access to, and passing comment on it on a forum?


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

Val said:



			Sky have a deal currently adding sports to existing subscription. Now TV also have a stand alone offer for sky sports
		
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Now TV is part of Sky. I did eventually sign up and am happy enough with content/setup. Arsenal v Palace last night was a worthwhile watch - if back to too much simulation. Hopefully the Hammers games won't be as dire (by both teams) as the freebee I watched (v Bournemouth) on Amazon last year, but that's nothing to do with the supplier.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
What do you think Foxholer, you've checked out my Twitter account..
		
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Have I? As I don't and never have had a Twitter account, how do you know that?


Mel Smooth said:



			...
Am I on the LIV payroll*...*?
		
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Even a negative answer to that question could be misleading!
I do wonder why you provide so many, to me, merely click-bait links though.
But enough! I'll not waste any more time on the subject today!


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## theoneandonly (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Have I? As I don't and never have had a Twitter account, how do you know that?

Even a negative answer to that question could be misleading!
I do wonder why you provide so many, to me, merely click-bait links though.
But enough! I'll not waste any more time on the subject today!
		
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You don't need a Twitter account to read tweets.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You don't need a Twitter account to read tweets.
		
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I know that! That wasn't my question - which was how come MS knows I've checked out HIS account! Of course, if all the ones he references are 'his' accounts, then I've certainly accessed some of them!


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## theoneandonly (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I know that! That wasn't my question - which was how come MS knows I've checked out HIS account! Of course, if all the ones he references are 'his' accounts, then I've certainly accessed some of them! 

Click to expand...

Mate , I usually ignore your trolly nonsense but your coming accross as a bit obsessed now.


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Mate , I usually ignore your trolly nonsense but your coming accross as a bit obsessed now.
		
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I'm simply answering your question. The emoticons should indicate the frivolity of the bit I think you might be referring to.


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## Springveldt (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's probably less than half the amount a CEO (Monahan's equivalent) in a 'normal' company with that turnover would be compensated!
MLB Commissioner made $11M in 2020; NFL equivalent made $63.9M
And apparently, a sizeable chunk of that 'compensation' is made up of performance bonuses - or at least his predecessor's was.
		
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PGA turnover is “only” 1.5B though and it’s not like the workforce are easily replaceable, they are the top golfers in the world. 

If I was a tour player in the mid ranks winning 2M a year and watch Jay get paid 9M I’d be fuming.


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## DaveR (Aug 6, 2022)

Val said:



			Sky have a deal currently adding sports to existing subscription. Now TV also have a stand alone offer for sky sports
		
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So if I have basic Sky (which I don't) how much would it cost me a month in total to add golf? I've been quoted more than £100 a month by the guy in my local shopping centre. Genuine question.


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## BrianM (Aug 6, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			PGA turnover is “only” 1.5B though and it’s not like the workforce are easily replaceable, they are the top golfers in the world.

If I was a tour player in the mid ranks winning 2M a year and watch Jay get paid 9M I’d be fuming.
		
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100% This, why has it taken LIV for the extra money to come into tournaments, it should of been done before now.
You could argue that as CEO he has let down his members.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			100% This, why has it taken LIV for the extra money to come into tournaments, it should of been done before now.
You could argue that as CEO he has let down his members.
		
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Have you read anything about why the PGA is now paying out more?

Also, if the members of the PGA Tour we’re happy with what the boss is being paid. They could do something about it. 

Not everyone worries about what other people are being paid.


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## BrianM (Aug 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Have you read anything about why the PGA is now paying out more?

Also, if the members of the PGA Tour we’re happy with what the boss is being paid. They could do something about it.

Not everyone worries about what other people are being paid.
		
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In my opinion you’d be in the minority, although it’s playing golf, it’s their job, they aren’t playing as a hobby.

He is the boss and has a duty to look after his staff, it’s the standard, I’ll pay you more after you’ve taken a new job.
Why not pay what they are worth to start with.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			In my opinion you’d be in the minority, although it’s playing golf, it’s their job, they aren’t playing as a hobby.

He is the boss and has a duty to look after his staff, it’s the standard, I’ll pay you more after you’ve taken a new job.
Why not pay what they are worth to start with.
		
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I’d be in a minority of what?

Like I said. Have you looked at how and why PGAT purses are increasing now?


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## BrianM (Aug 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’d be in a minority of what?

Like I said. Have you looked at how and why PGAT purses are increasing now?
		
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The minority of what people are getting paid.
I haven’t looked at why purses are getting increased but I’m not Naive enough to not think LIV golf has had a significant impact on their thinking on purses.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			So if I have basic Sky (which I don't) how much would it cost me a month in total to add golf? I've been quoted more than £100 a month by the guy in my local shopping centre. Genuine question.
		
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We have just renewed with sky. Full sport, no movies, hd, phone, broadband, line rental, £66. I think the tv, sport, all channels worked out at about £32 or similar. 

I'm pretty happy with that deal. No doubt someone out that will get it cheaper but it's okay with me.

Go on the sky website and look in offers. If you have an account already then log out. Some deals may be hidden, it's what the sky person on the phone told us to do.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			am I just a guy that enjoys watching as much golf as I have access to, and passing comment on it on a forum?
		
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theoneandonly said:



			Mate , I usually ignore your trolly nonsense but your coming accross as a bit obsessed now.
		
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There's a certain irony in calling Foxholer obsessed in a thread with the number of posts Mel Smooth has made


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We have just renewed with sky. Full sport, no movies, hd, phone, broadband, line rental, £66. I think the tv, sport, all channels worked out at about £32 or similar.

I'm pretty happy with that deal. No doubt someone out that will get it cheaper but it's okay with me.

Go on the sky website and look in offers. If you have an account already then log out. Some deals may be hidden, it's what the sky person on the phone told us to do.
		
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My Sky is the same as yours but includes Sky Q - and I’m paying a fortune,  but I’m getting from your post that you are an existing Sky customer and still was able to get your package for £66.  Basically we can’t afford it, so wouldn’t be stringing them along saying I will have to cancel a load of stuff.


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## RRidges (Aug 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			In my opinion you’d be in the minority, although it’s playing golf, it’s their job, they aren’t playing as a hobby.

He is the boss and has a duty to look after his staff, it’s the standard, I’ll pay you more after you’ve taken a new job.
Why not pay what they are worth to start with.
		
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Though I've not seen his contract, which may suggest differently, his primary responsibility is to the company/organisation rather than the staff. In every CEO/workers situation I know of (partnerships are different) it's a matter of negotiation as to how much or little the boss can get away with paying. That way, his/her own performance is likely to be enhanced.


BrianM said:



			The minority of what people are getting paid.
I haven’t looked at why purses are getting increased but I’m not Naive enough to not think LIV golf has had a significant impact on their thinking on purses.
		
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And that simply backs up what I posted above. Monahan had to do something to encourage 'loyalty' and enhancing prize money was an obvious tactic.


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## Backsticks (Aug 6, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Though I've not seen his contract, which may suggest differently, his primary responsibility is to the company/organisation rather than the staff. In every CEO/workers situation I know of (partnerships are different) it's a matter of negotiation as to how much or little the boss can get away with paying. That way, his/her own performance is likely to be enhanced.

And that simply backs up what I posted above. Monahan had to do something to encourage 'loyalty' and enhancing prize money was an obvious tactic.
		
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Not in this situation of a non profit. His job is to pay them the maximum he can. Taking into account contingency reserves, reliability of revenue, future revenue and sponsor projections, etc.
It is not to make a profit for someone else, and paying them less is not in the thinking as it is in for-profit organisations that most of us work for.

In a way, LIV has given hi  bargaining power with the big corporate sponsors - Ill deliver you the stars, and pretty much all of them that matter, but as you have seen, we are under price competition, so we need you to up your $15M prize fund for your  tournament to $20M.


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## RRidges (Aug 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not in this situation of a non profit. His job is to pay them the maximum he can. Taking into account contingency reserves, reliability of revenue, future revenue and sponsor projections, etc.
It is not to make a profit for someone else, and paying them less is not in the thinking as it is in for-profit organisations that most of us work for.
		
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Nope! Even so, though perhaps not as aggressively as in a 'for profit' org. It's simply a case of 'who does my contract say employs me, therefore that's where my primary allegiance is'!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Have I? As I don't and never have had a Twitter account, how do you know that?
		
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Ok, here's a tweet I put on my account on the 29th of June....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541987787318116352
And here's one of your posts from the 29th of June, the same day....




			Ooh! How was the flight/were the flights? 

Click to expand...

Post number 2873 if you need to check it out.

Maybe it was just a lucky guess that I'd happened to catch a flight on the same day?


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## Backsticks (Aug 6, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Nope! Even so, though perhaps not as aggressively as in a 'for profit' org. It's simply a case of 'who does my contract say employs me, therefore that's where my primary allegiance is'!
		
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The players. His job is to have them earn as much as he can. If they arent being paid enough, they fire him. Its not boss fire employee as in a for profit. The players employ him to get the best deals from sponsors, TV, advertising, host courses, so that they get their share of the biggest pie possible, develop the tour to maximise earning potential for pgat members.


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## RRidges (Aug 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The players. His job is to have them earn as much as he can. If they arent being paid enough, they fire him. Its not boss fire employee as in a for profit. The players employ him to get the best deals from sponsors, TV, advertising, host courses, so that they get their share of the biggest pie possible, develop the tour to maximise earning potential for pgat members.
		
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We'll have to agree to disagree! 
FWIW Players can't sack him directly....That can only be done through the Board, though players have a significant, but minority, representation on that body.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Sky is the same as yours but includes Sky Q - and I’m paying a fortune,  but I’m getting from your post that you are an existing Sky customer and still was able to get your package for £66.  Basically we can’t afford it, so wouldn’t be stringing them along saying I will have to cancel a load of stuff.
		
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We also have Sky Q, yes we are an existing customer. 

Yes, there is an element of game playing,  it's how they work. Tell them you either want to cancel or reduce your payments. They offer a reduction, you accept or not. Ultimately, there are quite a few layers to go through before you actually stop anything and you can stop and stick at any stage. You don't know the people on the phone, there is no loss of face. I don't like haggling, there isn't much of a haggle required. Try it, save money.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The minority of what people are getting paid.
I haven’t looked at why purses are getting increased but I’m not Naive enough to not think LIV golf has had a significant impact on their thinking on purses.
		
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Increase in purse available within the PGA tour is due to the increase in media rights deal they have recently renewed in June - not everything is a reaction to LIV


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## pokerjoke (Aug 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Increase in purse available within the PGA tour is due to the increase in media rights deal they have recently renewed in June - not everything is a reaction to LIV
		
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Rubbish 
As soon as the poo hit the fan they upped the purses.
As I predicted they would.
It’s not rocket science


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## BrianM (Aug 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Increase in purse available within the PGA tour is due to the increase in media rights deal they have recently renewed in June - not everything is a reaction to LIV
		
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So you’re saying it’s got absolutely nothing to do with LIV, I’m astounded by that comment.


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## Beezerk (Aug 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, here's a tweet I put on my account on the 29th of June....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541987787318116352
And here's one of your posts from the 29th of June, the same day....



Post number 2873 if you need to check it out.

Maybe it was just a lucky guess that I'd happened to catch a flight on the same day?
		
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Looks like you have a secret stalker 👀


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## Val (Aug 7, 2022)

DaveR said:



			So if I have basic Sky (which I don't) how much would it cost me a month in total to add golf? I've been quoted more than £100 a month by the guy in my local shopping centre. Genuine question.
		
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There is an offer currently for existing account holders to add sports for £20. 

My sky package is under £100 Inc sports, movies, multiroom and broadband


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## sunshine (Aug 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Looks like you have a secret stalker 👀
		
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This is funny if true. 

Never ceases to amaze me the banal boring crap that people put on Twitter. Facebook is bad but partly understandable because it’s aimed at friends and family. Twitter is broadcasting inane drivel to the world. And some people even read it?


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## Orikoru (Aug 8, 2022)

That's clearly a Fanta not an Irn Bru.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 8, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's clearly a Fanta not an Irn Bru. 

Click to expand...

#FakeNews


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 8, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's clearly a Fanta not an Irn Bru. 

Click to expand...

Indeed it is, I'm blaming the error on the free orange juice that I was drinking that was actually Bucks Fizz


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## RRidges (Aug 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok, here's a tweet I put on my account on the 29th of June....
And here's one of your posts from the 29th of June, the same day....



Post number 2873 if you need to check it out.

Maybe it was just a lucky guess that I'd happened to catch a flight on the same day?
		
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June 29 was the 1st day of LIV at Bedminster. I remember the date as I considered going.
I seem to remember a similar challenge about your absence from here on the day before Pumpkin Hill!


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 8, 2022)

The PGA tour have issued a response to the lawsuit from the players......

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pg...tm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow

Does seem to be overly heavy on the "Saudi billions" and "sportswashing" aspects.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 8, 2022)

RRidges said:



			June 29 was the 1st day of LIV at Bedminster. I remember the date as I considered going.
I seem to remember a similar challenge about your absence from here on the day before Pumpkin Hill!
		
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Wouldn’t know about that mate. All I know is I was catching a flight at stupid o’clock in the morning from Alicante-Elche to Leeds Bradford.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The PGA tour have issued a response to the lawsuit from the players......

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pg...tm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow

Does seem to be overly heavy on the "Saudi billions" and "sportswashing" aspects.
		
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EDIT - although one point does seem fair in that the players have known the punishment for months but have only now brought the lawsuit to manufacture a short timescale that needs an emergency decision. Why wasn't this filed months ago as soon as the sanctions were known?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			EDIT - although one point does seem fair in that the players have known the punishment for months but have only now brought the lawsuit to manufacture a short timescale that needs an emergency decision. *Why wasn't this filed months ago as soon as the sanctions were known?*

Click to expand...

In order to try and force a decision in their favour rather than giving the court time to deal with it properly?


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## IainP (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm not expecting the court to favour the 3 guys, but you never know.

Interesting view in the beeb article, probably a few will recall/relate with that -

"It (PGAT) has been left pleading with its members for loyalty, stressing a sense of history and awareness of the golfing pyramid - the kind of stuff the European tour used to say when its leading lights headed Stateside"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62466126


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## Golfnut1957 (Aug 9, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'm not expecting the court to favour the 3 guys, but you never know.

Interesting view in the beeb article, probably a few will recall/relate with that -

"It (PGAT) has been left pleading with its members for loyalty, stressing a sense of history and awareness of the golfing pyramid - the kind of stuff the European tour used to say when its leading lights headed Stateside"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62466126

Click to expand...

I read that article yesterday and I got the feeling that there was a subtle change of stance from Mr Carter and the BBC. Only a short while ago he was vigorously attacking LIV and Norman. In that article he recognises how it is the PGA Tour that is on the defensive and as your quote shows likens it to what has happened to the European Tour, but now it is without a great deal of support or sympathy.

I've said from the start that the PGA Tour having done to it what they have done to the European Tour and then whining about it is both expected and hypocritical. Suck it up Rory.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

It's in the Daily Mail, so I'd imagine the opposite is actually the truth.

Obviously lots of Cam Smith and Leishman speculation since The Open, which has tellingly, never been quashed..



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/g...gebFqPMqINsfbOp3HLAslAUYvCL3ebBOnL7Dp-hZalXv4


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## Springveldt (Aug 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			EDIT - although one point does seem fair in that the players have known the punishment for months but have only now brought the lawsuit to manufacture a short timescale that needs an emergency decision. Why wasn't this filed months ago as soon as the sanctions were known?
		
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Pretty obvious why now. It's the tour championship coming up, loads of money on offer. They were hoping it would drag on a month or two and allow them to play in it while the courts sort it out.


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## GB72 (Aug 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Pretty obvious why now. It's the tour championship coming up, loads of money on offer. They were hoping it would drag on a month or two and allow them to play in it while the courts sort it out.
		
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Exactly. Hopin got be granted and emergency injunction to allow them to play in the Tour Championship then let the courts sort it out. Would be interesting to see what format the injunction would take. If it allowed participation in all PGA Tour evnts until the case had been heard, that could see LIV golfers playing on the Tour for a couple of years.


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## Slab (Aug 9, 2022)

I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream 
I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit 
I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation 
Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5


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## Orikoru (Aug 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream
I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit
I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation
Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5 

Click to expand...

It does seem like everyone could be a bit more pragmatic and find a way to co-exist, but such is not the way of the world.


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## GB72 (Aug 9, 2022)

Slab said:



			I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream
I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit
I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation
Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5 

Click to expand...

This is it, ideal world both coexist with a mutually agreed calendar so as certain agreed LIV and PGA Tour events do not clash. LIV members agree to play a certain amount of PGA Tour events so as not to massively devalue their product and LIV remove their claim to get ranking points so as members still have some reliance on the Tours and cannot just pitch up for Majors. Perhaps, based on their new working relationship, the obligation on LIV tour players to play a certain number of events should be split between the PGA Tour and the DP Tour.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 9, 2022)

GB72 said:



			This is it, ideal world both coexist with a mutually agreed calendar so as certain agreed LIV and PGA Tour events do not clash. LIV members agree to play a certain amount of PGA Tour events so as not to massively devalue their product and LIV remove their claim to get ranking points so as members still have some reliance on the Tours and cannot just pitch up for Majors. Perhaps, based on their new working relationship, the obligation on LIV tour players to play a certain number of events should be split between the PGA Tour and the DP Tour.
		
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The issue is, the PGA was already the dominant tour in golf. By a long long way. So, any agreement to have a working relationship with LIV automatically weakens their product. From their point of view. The PGA Tour has events nearly every week in the year. Yes, some of those are pretty low profile, but you will usually get one or 2 big players on those events. If LIV has a dozen or so events a year, they will be played at the same time, at the very least, as those lower profile PGA Tour events. The biggest players will play on LIV and more fans will watch LIV (especially as it is publicly seen as a legitimate tour, and less so as an exhibition). So, at the very least, LIV completely undermines those PGA Tour events. The other concern for the PGA would be that, if LIV really does then kick off and gain lots of support, LIV will get stronger over time, the PGA weaker.

The PGA knows what its effect was on the European Tour. They will be scared to death that LIV does the same thing to them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

LIV can happily exists and their members can play their events , plus the events on the Asian Tour of which they aligned.

But I don’t believe the people who went to the LIV tour should be allowed to pop back to the PGA or ET to play in the “high profile” events - that imo is a case of just wanting a piece of cake from all the pies. 

They have the LIV tour - they made a choice and knew that it would affect the other tours they play on

Rankings - i don’t think they will get rankings until it changes from an invite only to some process that allows people to qualify  

Majors - I don’t expect them to change their qualifying process to make it so players can qualify from LIV events

There is nothing stopping LIV from organising golf comps for golfers who want to play in that sort of event - it’s not much different to the European Super League that was started and football fans made their feelings known about that very quickly 

Saudi have put a lot of money into it all so they will keep going and it will just be another tour that people will have to buy subscription for


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## rksquire (Aug 9, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			I read that article yesterday and I got the feeling that there was a subtle change of stance from Mr Carter and the BBC. Only a short while ago he was vigorously attacking LIV and Norman. In that article he recognises how it is the PGA Tour that is on the defensive and as your quote shows likens it to what has happened to the European Tour, but now it is without a great deal of support or sympathy.

I've said from the start that the PGA Tour having done to it what they have done to the European Tour and then whining about it is both expected and hypocritical. Suck it up Rory.
		
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I think the change was inevitable; the BBC had provided a leaderboard link to the last tournament and there does now seem to be (in some quarters!) a more balanced view of the PGAT set up (currently), recognition of the hypocrisy of the PGAT 'poaching' of the ETs best players and now playing the victim etc.  

I do think the court case is more finely balanced than Monahan is suggesting - his memo's lack clarity and detail and are full of pettiness, and are potentially divisive (assuming a future resolution).  Joel Dahmen's pizza tweets singlehandedly proving why the 'defectors' have a case but I doubt he sees the logic of that (ie the original pizza place would still let BDC order a pizza).   From the other thread, and a bit of subsequent research, I see the OGWR changes, whilst complicated and beyond me overall, will be providing some of its stats on a round by round basis so it certainly won't preclude LIVs 54 hole format.  And I do find it interesting, with it's own chequered history, the influence Augusta National appears to be having on how the Tours, OGWR and players are run.


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## wjemather (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I don’t believe the people who went to the LIV tour should be allowed to pop back to the PGA or ET to play in the “high profile” events - that imo is a case of just wanting a piece of cake from all the pies.
		
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Why would it be any different from the European Tour allowing players who have joined the PGA Tour to "pop back" and cherry-pick Rolex Series events (or play other events for big appearance fees)? If tour members fulfil their minimum requirements, who cares where else they are playing.


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

Interesting article from previous Tour Commissioner here: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/qa-former-pga-tour-commissioner-deane-beman-liv-golf/


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Interesting article from previous Tour Commissioner here: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/qa-former-pga-tour-commissioner-deane-beman-liv-golf/

Click to expand...


If he thinks Jay Monaghan has done an exemplary job of managing the situation, he needs to go and ask his doctor for stronger meds.


There are people at both ends of the spectrum some who want the PGA as it exists now to be destroyed by LIV, and there are some that want the PGA to derail LIV until it goes away, then there are 95% of people in the middle who either dont care, or want to see a resolution whereby the top players can still compete on their respective tours, and still be able to face each other in certain events.

Unfortunately, Monahan is at one end of the aforementioned spectrum.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

wjemather said:



			Why would it be any different from the European Tour allowing players who have joined the PGA Tour to "pop back" and cherry-pick Rolex Series events (or play other events for big appearance fees)? If tour members fulfil their minimum requirements, who cares where else they are playing.
		
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The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour 

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET. 

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors 

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET.

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.
		
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Lee Westwood not keen on the “relationship”

This is in response to a tweet highlighting the St Jude awards 60 odd points for first place, whereby the ISPS Handa on the DP tour awards 8. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1556973064239419393


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lee Westwood not keen on the “relationship”

This is in response to a tweet highlighting the St Jude awards 60 odd points for first place, whereby the ISPS Handa on the DP tour awards 8.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1556973064239419393

Click to expand...

The same Westwood who had no issues going across to the PGA tour a number of times himself 🤷‍♂️

And yes the St Jude will have more points than the Handa 🤷‍♂️  The level of players at St Jude will be higher 

When it comes to the PGA at Wentworth it will be rated higher than the PGA event on at the same time


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## wjemather (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET.

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.
		
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You haven't explained why this should operate any differently with LIV golfers, just asserted what happened before LIV. If they are qualified and meet their minimums, let them play wherever they want.

Anyway, the existing tours' working relationships are only beneficial to one party. The elite European Tour schedule now consists of 2 weeks in the desert in January/February, 2 weeks in GB&I in July, one week in Surrey in September, and 2 weeks in November - all dictated by the PGA Tour, which also successfully relocated the two global WGCs to the US before eventually killing all but the MP off. That really isn't a working relationship, that's a dominant party abusing it's position for it's own benefit.

One possibility, if there was a true partnership, was expansion of the original WGC concept to create a jointly owned elite global tour of a dozen or more tournaments (including and elevating historic events like the Australian and South African Opens), with qualification routes from all the existing top level tours. If that had happened LIV/GN would never have had an opening.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The same Westwood who had no issues going across to the PGA tour a number of times himself 🤷‍♂️

And yes the St Jude will have more points than the Handa 🤷‍♂️  The level of players at St Jude will be higher

When it comes to the PGA at Wentworth it will be rated higher than the PGA event on at the same time
		
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Westwood didn't have any input on the vote for changes did he?

Also, he may have gone to the PGA Tour, why wouldn't he, but he's always been around a good number of ET events, supporting the game on his own continent.

I'm glad you mentioned the quality of players at St Jude, comapred to the ISPS, because the exact same argument exists for the last LIV event when the quality of players was higher there, than it was at the Rocket Mortgage Classic, yet you don't want those LIV players getting ANY ranking points whatsoever.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If he thinks Jay Monaghan has done an exemplary job of managing the situation, he needs to go and ask his doctor for stronger meds.


There are people at both ends of the spectrum some who want the PGA as it exists now to be destroyed by LIV, and there are some that want the PGA to derail LIV until it goes away, then there are 95% of people in the middle who either dont care, or want to see a resolution whereby the top players can still compete on their respective tours, and still be able to face each other in certain events.

Unfortunately, Monahan is at one end of the aforementioned spectrum.
		
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He will realise as his tour weakens,and it is weakening rapidly,he will need the Liv players.
If he doesn’t then more fool him.
Rumours are abound Matsuama,smith and Leishman to move over soon.
That’s a massive amount of overseas viewers.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1556933378980577281
Seen lots of social media experts saying certain players won’t be joining LIV,only for them to join 😬


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## Springveldt (Aug 9, 2022)

Cam Smith trending on Twitter saying that he and Leishman are signing for LIV after the Tour Championship.

He could be world #1 by then.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			He will realise as his tour weakens,and it is weakening rapidly,he will need the Liv players.
If he doesn’t then more fool him.
Rumours are abound Matsuama,smith and Leishman to move over soon.
That’s a massive amount of overseas viewers.
		
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The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.
		
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But in the article you linked to earlier Greg Norman is quoted as saying they're full for numbers. So either he's lying or the people saying that there will be an exodus are wrong. Both things can't be true.


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## RichA (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm late to this conversation due to lack of interest in pro golf outside of the majors, so this may have already been covered, however...
Surely any litigation will be entirely dependent on any contracts the pros have signed and the terms and conditions of the various competitions, just as they would be for the rest of us if we decided to leave an employer, take on a second job or play in a sports competition for a rival organisation or league.
Has anyone making the various assertions on here seen said contracts or Ts&Cs? If not, isn't this all just pointless conjecture?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.
		
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But Greg Norman said it’s all full now and they only have 48 spots and more players than spots already 🤷‍♂️

Or are some of this players that currently filling spots going to be binned off ? 

Surely it’s clear to see who is on the side of PGAT - all those members that are staying ? Even the likes of the JH Kim who it seems turned it all down and went to the PGA tour and now has earned his card


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## wjemather (Aug 9, 2022)

RichA said:



			I'm late to this conversation due to lack of interest in pro golf outside of the majors, so this may have already been covered, however...
Surely any litigation will be entirely dependent on any contracts the pros have signed and the terms and conditions of the various competitions, just as they would be for the rest of us if we decided to leave an employer, take on a second job or play in a sports competition for a rival organisation or league.
Has anyone making the various assertions on here seen said contracts or Ts&Cs? If not, isn't this all just pointless conjecture?
		
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Players are not employees of the tours so do not have employment contracts; this is one of the many things that leads to false analogies with other sports or working life in general.
However the players do sign membership agreements, some of the provisions of which have never been tested and any disciplinary sanctions are almost never made public by the PGAT.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			But in the article you linked to earlier Greg Norman is quoted as saying they're full for numbers. So either he's lying or the people saying that there will be an exodus are wrong. Both things can't be true.
		
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Or they have agreements in place for current PGA players who are competing in the Fedex? 

They are full for 2023, but that doesn’t mean that the player list for 2023 is the one that is currently listed by LIV.


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## wjemather (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But Greg Norman said it’s all full now and they only have 48 spots and more players than spots already 🤷‍♂️

Or are some of this players that currently filling spots going to be binned off ?

Surely it’s clear to see who is on the side of PGAT - all those members that are staying ? Even the likes of the JH Kim who it seems turned it all down and went to the PGA tour and now has earned his card
		
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There are many current LIV participants who are contracted on an event-by-event basis or only for the remainder of this year. Judging by GN's comments, their places have apparently been filled for next year - we know one incoming is Bubba Watson, but we'll have to wait to find out who the rest are; sounds like some big names are nailed on to be among them though. Also makes sense that they'll need more than 48 players to account for potential absences; presumably, these will substantially be Asian Tour players.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Or they have agreements in place for current PGA players who are competing in the Fedex? 

They are full for 2023, but that doesn’t mean that the player list for 2023 is the one that is currently listed by LIV.
		
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The bit that most makes me think that Greg Norman is lying is the comment about still getting calls from the agents of top 40 players wanting to join but him saying it's too late. I don't believe for a minute that they would be knocking back those players to keep their current lineup - unless they're happy with having a second rate field of players. They've already shown that money is no object so they could easily pay off some of the lesser players to replace them with the top 40 players that he says are interested.


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Cam Smith trending on Twitter saying that he and Leishman are signing for LIV after the Tour Championship.

He could be world #1 by then.
		
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All of a sudden the liv tour isn't full of "has been wash outs"


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## pokerjoke (Aug 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The bit that most makes me think that Greg Norman is lying is the comment about still getting calls from the agents of top 40 players wanting to join but him saying it's too late. I don't believe for a minute that they would be knocking back those players to keep their current lineup - unless they're happy with having a second rate field of players. They've already shown that money is no object so they could easily pay off some of the lesser players to replace them with the top 40 players that he says are interested.
		
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However it’s not becoming 2nd rate
Bigger names joining 
PGA getting weaker,hence 2nd tier players in fields lately.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The bit that most makes me think that Greg Norman is lying is the comment about still getting calls from the agents of top 40 players wanting to join but him saying it's too late. I don't believe for a minute that they would be knocking back those players to keep their current lineup - unless they're happy with having a second rate field of players. They've already shown that money is no object so they could easily pay off some of the lesser players to replace them with the top 40 players that he says are interested.
		
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Yep, he could be - but he did also say that if a player that was right at the top of the game - so I guess we're looking at guys like Rory, Rahm, Scheffler, Smith etc, were interested in joining, they would look to see if they could accomodate them. 

I'm not sure money is no object, they have a budget to work to - which was increased, but I'm not convinced there is a bottmless pit of money there for them to spend as they wish. 

At some point, there needs to be a ROI for the PIF.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			However it’s not becoming 2nd rate
Bigger names joining
PGA getting weaker,hence 2nd tier players in fields lately.
		
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I think the LIV field is pretty impressive given the time it's been in existence. We've now got world renowned golfers competing in there, some of the most well known figures in the game.


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## brendy (Aug 9, 2022)

Big year for Smith, up until this time last year he was nowhere near as popular or "current" , I think his relevance is slightly overplayed as he just comes across a bit bland and quiet.  To me, if he goes, he goes, I wouldn't miss him as much as many others in the top ranks of the PGA/European tours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

hovis said:



			All of a sudden the liv tour isn't full of "has been wash outs"
		
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If Cam Smith does go that would mean 8 out of the top 50 would be playing on the LIV

1 of the Top 10

The tour is still full of journeymen and guys on a last pay day 



Mel Smooth said:



			Yep, he could be - but he did also say that if a player that was right at the top of the game - so I guess we're looking at guys like Rory, Rahm, Scheffler, Smith etc, were interested in joining, they would look to see if they could accomodate them.

I'm not sure money is no object, they have a budget to work to - which was increased, but I'm not convinced there is a bottmless pit of money there for them to spend as they wish.

At some point, there needs to be a ROI for the PIF.
		
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Of course there is a bottomless pit - they were offering Woods $700mil plus , the number already spent must be over a couple billion and players like Smith and Matsyuma won’t be cheap if the likes of BDC is getting $200mil- wasn’t the talk of $500mil plus for Matsyuama ?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 9, 2022)

brendy said:



			Big year for Smith, up until this time last year he was nowhere near as popular or "current" , I think his relevance is slightly overplayed as he just comes across a bit bland and quiet.  To me, if he goes, he goes, I wouldn't miss him as much as many others in the top ranks of the PGA/European tours.
		
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Other than Rory and Rahm not a single one of the top players have an once of charisma  on the course.

As examples, Thomas and Cantlay are boring robots. You couldn't tell if they are 10 under or 10 over during a round. Good players sure but I wouldn't be particularly interested in watching them even if I watched much more golf.

Not surprising that the likes of Smith would go, as an Aussie he is playing golf on a different continent and different culture. As a non American very unlikely to have any loyalty to PGA Tour anyway,  just a place to work


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## pokerjoke (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If Cam Smith does go that would mean 8 out of the top 50 would be playing on the LIV

1 of the Top 10

The tour is still full of journeymen and guys on a last pay day



Of course there is a bottomless pit - they were offering Woods $700mil plus , the number already spent must be over a couple billion and players like Smith and Matsyuma won’t be cheap if the likes of BDC is getting $200mil- wasn’t the talk of $500mil plus for Matsyuama ?
		
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Journeymen ?
Plenty on the PGA tour to.
It’s weakening every week,every time a big name leaves.
Lots are getting FOMO hence apparent contact by players management teams.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557041486914527232


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			But in the article you linked to earlier Greg Norman is quoted as saying they're full for numbers. So either he's lying or the people saying that there will be an exodus are wrong. Both things can't be true.
		
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They can be true. You are full. But absorb upgrades by selecting discards.


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

If Cam Smith is gone, that's tipping point alright. I hope they all go. I would be hoping all top 48 in the world sign up ready for next year, once they go through the motions of the Fedex Cup. PGAT still has a role as a joint second division with the European tour. But really need to move all the tournaments to the US. Putting them on in the far east or Aus is no good to us. I love my prime time TV that US time is perfect for.


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2022)

No they haven't.  Many just think they're


Backsticks said:



			If Cam Smith is gone, that's tipping point alright. I hope they all go. I would be hoping all top 48 in the world sign up ready for next year, once they go through the motions of the Fedex Cup. PGAT still has a role as a joint second division with the European tour. But really need to move all the tournaments to the US. Putting them on in the far east or Aus is no good to us. I love my prime time TV that US time is perfect for.
		
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It would be hilarious if liv ended up and sky and pgat was via YouTube 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Aug 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If Cam Smith is gone, that's tipping point alright. I hope they all go. I would be hoping all top 48 in the world sign up ready for next year, once they go through the motions of the Fedex Cup. PGAT still has a role as a joint second division with the European tour. But really need to move all the tournaments to the US. Putting them on in the far east or Aus is no good to us. I love my prime time TV that US time is perfect for.
		
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Although, the top 48 won't necessarily be the best 48. Maybe, technically, they could be in a point in time. But, form has peaks and troughs, and players get over injuries. Also, some existing LIV players may be rapidly falling down the rankings. So, no idea who the "best" 48 players would actually be going into next season.


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

The bottom 15, or those no longer up to it like Phil dont really matter. If you have the top 20, and the bit of promotion relegation each year, the best will keep bubbling in there. I still woundnt be counting them a wins, as far as their career titles go though. But it will be high quality exhibition golf like the pro am that was in Ireland before the Open. Would be nice to see some new top American golf courses too.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They can be true. You are full. But absorb upgrades by selecting discards.
		
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He said that they're full and it's too late with regards to the agents of the top 40 players calling him. If that's true then there can't be an exodus as they're full and it's too late. But I don't for one second think that if Scheffler/McIlroy/Rahm/Thomas/Hovland/Spieth etc wanted to move across to LIV that they would be told "Sorry, we're full, it's too late". Norman would be on TV announcing the signings before the ink was even dry on the contracts.


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

If Rory, Rahm, and Scottie rang Shark and asked can he fit them in, there would be three other big cheques written for no-names to quietly vacate.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If Rory, Rahm, and Scottie rang Shark and asked can he fit them in, there would be three other big cheques written for no-names to quietly vacate.
		
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Exactly my point. So you agree that Greg Norman was lying then?


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## IainP (Aug 9, 2022)

You might say Greg Norman was sending a message to the agents...


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm glad you mentioned the quality of players at St Jude, comapred to the ISPS, because the exact same argument exists for the last LIV event when the quality of players was higher there, than it was at the Rocket Mortgage Classic, yet you don't want those LIV players getting ANY ranking points whatsoever.
		
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I'm certain the timing of the LIV tournaments was quite deliberate to be at the same time as 'weaker' PGAT events.


Mel Smooth said:



			The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.
		
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Somehow, I doubt you are trying very hard. I suspect all those committed to PGAT or DPWT are firmly in the Monahan camp.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I'm certain the timing of the LIV tournaments was quite deliberate to be at the same time as 'weaker' PGAT events.
		
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It was, so that the two could operate alongside each other.


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## chrisd (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was, so that the two could operate alongside each other.
		
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Didn't go too well that bright idea 🤣🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was, so that the two could operate alongside each other.
		
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You really think that was why Greg Norman chose those dates?

Of course it would be too cynical to think that it might help them boost their viewing figures because he knows that they would be swallowed up going up against a major pga or ET event 

Then what all the LIV bots can do is compare the LIV event with the PGAT event going on at the same time. 

They will never go against a big PGA event and it’s not because of some idea about Co existing


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 9, 2022)

I think I respect David Feherty a bit more after his response to joining LIV.....

""Money." "People don’t talk about it. I hear, ‘Well, it’s to grow the game.’ Bull****. They paid me a lot of money.""

At least he's being honest about why he's signed up.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/th...flow&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557051551264415744


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was, *so that the two could operate alongside each other*.
		
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What? Why would they not have been able to operate alongside each other if against a stronger PGAT field? The only reason I can see for that is that the click count on YT for the LIV would likely have been less than it was! Understandable, but unless there's a proper reason, don't try to pass it off as anything other than (reasonable and expected) self-interest on LIV's part.
Btw. Note my update. I didn't think you'd respond so quickly.


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was, so that the two could operate alongside each other.
		
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Are you fully aware of how this comes across as nothing more than spin? Even if you believe it. And if you do, even that deifies belief.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You really think that was why Greg Norman chose those dates?

Of course it would be too cynical to think that it might help them boost their viewing figures because he knows that they would be swallowed up going up against a major pga or ET event

Then what all the LIV bots can do is compare the LIV event with the PGAT event going on at the same time.

They will never go against a big PGA event and it’s not because of some idea about Co existing
		
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Lol. As if they would have gone against a major!! 


Puddled.com


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol. As if they would have gone against a major!!


Puddled.com
		
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“Major PGA Event” 🙄


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol. As if they would have gone against a major!!


Puddled.com
		
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And this one for example. Did you unintentionally mis read Phil's post, or intentionally misread it, and counter with something he hadnt written, anyway ?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			“Major PGA Event” 🙄
		
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Apologies Phil, when I post anything on this thread, I seem to have about 4 or 5 responses to read/reply to. I misread your post.


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They are full for 2023, *but that doesn’t mean that the player list for 2023 is the one that is currently listed by LIV*.
		
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I can't remember actually seeing a 2023 LIV player list (happy to be shown one though). So how do you actually *know* that? Do you have access to LIV docs/info that the rest of us don't? Or is it merely unqualified speculation? 
If it's the latter, kindly add the appropriate qualifier (I believe, I understand, I think etc) to them as stating such unqualified speculation as facts is, to me, up there with perjury or cheating at Golf!
FWIW, it's easy to set up a Ctrl/PF Key to autotype whichever one you choose.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 9, 2022)

RRidges said:



			How do you actually *know* that? Do you have access to LIV docs/info that the rest of us don't? Or is it merely unqualified speculation?
If it's the latter, kindly add the appropriate qualifier (I believe, I understand, I think etc) to them as stating such unqualified speculation as facts is, to me, up there with perjury or cheating at Golf!
FWIW, it's easy to set up a Ctrl/PF Key to autotype whichever one you choose.
		
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Seriously mate. It’s a golf forum with a few old blokes chewing the fat. If you want to take me to court, crack on.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 9, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I can't remember actually seeing a 2023 LIV player list (happy to be shown one though). So how do you actually *know* that? Do you have access to LIV docs/info that the rest of us don't? Or is it merely unqualified speculation?
If it's the latter, kindly add the appropriate qualifier (I believe, I understand, I think etc) to them as stating such unqualified speculation as facts is, to me, up there with perjury or cheating at Golf!
FWIW, it's easy to set up a Ctrl/PF Key to autotype whichever one you choose.
		
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I believe most of this thread is unqualified speculation.
Unless anyone is on the board,committee or in meetings with the powers that be,I would be taking everything as speculation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557032690045648899
Is he back tracking or saying they mis quoted him 🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Seriously mate. It’s a golf forum with a few old blokes chewing the fat. If you want to take me to court, crack on.
		
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Not in the same country, so impractical.
Speaking of which, time to get back to work as golf with the boss again in a couple of hours - as the temp is down to mid 80s from mid 90s!


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



*I believe most of this thread is unqualified speculation.*
Unless anyone is on the board,committee or in meetings with the powers that be,I would be taking everything as speculation.
		
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Then they should all be suitably qualified - as mine are.
It's dishonest otherwise!


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## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

A pretty anti-LIV article from a 'serious' newspaper - 60+ Pulitzers and the paper that broke the Watergate scandal
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/08/09/liv-golf-injunction-fedex-cup-playoffs/


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## IainP (Aug 9, 2022)

In the spirit of unqualified speculation 😁, maybe the 3 guys trying to muscle back in on PGAT know they are not in the 48 next year 😉

Okay being serious Gooch is ranked high enough to stay...


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Round 1 to PGA Tour! LIV Golfers lose their TRO case!
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/09/sports/golf/liv-pga-federal-court-ruling.html
This case only covers the 3 requesting an injunction to allow them to play in Play Off series.

The case covering the 11 has been scheduled as per this doc https://dknation.draftkings.com/202...overage-talor-gooch-jones-swafford-matt-jones

Oh and from a tweet referred to in the above reference... In testimony, lawyer for LIV players said that in some contracts a player's prize money is recouped against his advance. A noteworthy admission that LIV previously denied.


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2022)

So does that mean that for LIV events, you dont actually 'win' any money, so may as well lose ?
Or is it a sort of indentured slavery, where you must win what you have been paid up front, however long that takes. The quicker you 'win' that sum back, the quicker you buy your freedom ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Seems a few of the LIV bots aren’t doing any updates this morning after the court case 

Judge was very critical of LIV , was very clear that there is no damage to the players if they are banned and that PGA isn’t “monopolised” the sport and as she said if LIV claim they have 20% of the golf market how can PGA have the monopoly 🤷‍♂️

Can see last being a bit of a green light moment for PGA and majors and ET to bring in the bans 

And obviously the fact that the contract players aren’t playing for any prize money as such 😂😂😂 so it’s pretty much an exhibition for them 

Also the main court case may not start for 3 years


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## Swango1980 (Aug 10, 2022)

Can someone just clarify: Are LIV golfers not getting any prize money, until the total prize money increases beyond their sign on fee? Is that a fact now?

If true, it is clear evidence that LIV representatives lied through their teeth, as they were adamant this was NOT the case when reporters where asking the question a month or so ago. Furthermore, it really removed much of the competitive element entirely. Some on here argued that of course there was competition when they were competing for that sort of money. However, they are not really, if they've already payed up front, regardless of how they play. Some might feel they'll only ever play in 7 or so events, and will never win enough to exceed that sign on fee. Then you look at Phil Mickleson, how long is it going to take him to win more than $200 million in prize money? The way he is playing, and the time he has at playing at a high level (which has already past anyway), it is incredibly unlikely he'd ever win that amount, to start getting additional funds on top of that sign on fee. So, if the above is true, no wonder he is just hacking his way around the course every week.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seems a few of the LIV bots aren’t doing any updates this morning after the court case

Judge was very critical of LIV , was very clear that there is no damage to the players if they are banned and that PGA isn’t “monopolised” the sport and as she said if LIV claim they have 20% of the golf market how can PGA have the monopoly 🤷‍♂️

Can see last being a bit of a green light moment for PGA and majors and ET to bring in the bans

And obviously the fact that the contract players aren’t playing for any prize money as such 😂😂😂 so it’s pretty much an exhibition for them

Also the main court case may not start for 3 years
		
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There's a long way to go in the legal battles Phil, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I believe that the LIV lawyer said that in some instances the LIV players winnings are offset against their contracted fee's, byt according to Golfweek, this was denied afterwards by LIV, and it goes against the accounts I've seen from golfers on tour, who know plenty of the LIV players.

The bigger story in the news this morning is about Cam Smith in the Telegraph, if true, the PGA can ban who they like. It will not do them one ounce of good in the longterm.


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## IanM (Aug 10, 2022)

Court held: "If you choose to jump ship for bundles of cash, you've jumped ship."   Your choice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There's a long way to go in the legal battles Phil, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I believe that the LIV lawyer said that in some instances the LIV players winnings are offset against their contracted fee's, byt according to Golfweek, this was denied afterwards by LIV, and it goes against the accounts I've seen from golfers on tour, who know plenty of the LIV players.

The bigger story in the news this morning is about Cam Smith in the Telegraph, if true, the PGA can ban who they like. It will not do them one ounce of good in the longterm.
		
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There is a long messy way to go yet , I believe one of the 11 have already pulled out , but the LIV case was very poor yesterday 

The contracts of the players were given to the courts hence why it came up about pay - it’s clear that there have been a lot of lies and fabrication from LIV , they can deny lots of things but not sure people will believe them right now 

It’s a shame to see golf going through this at the moment , it’s not good for the sport and LIV need to stop pointing fingers at others and see that they have blame in it as well - it’s a shame Normans arrogance won’t allow that 

and the Cam Smith is still the same rumours - they say he is joining after the Fed Ex but then Cam Smith says he can’t wait for the Presidents so that’s a bit of a middle and also Cam Percy back tracking 

Cam Smith going will be their biggest high profile player because of his recent Open win - being an Aussie you can see why , but I don’t see it being Armageddon for the PGAT and if he does go then the PGAT will move on


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2022)

I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'.

Golf is doing fine , and unaffected by this commercial contest for control of the entertainment branch.

Elite millionaire athletes in  golf are in turmoil alright.

Its similar to the 'grow the game of golf' mantra from LIV. What they leave people with the illusion of with that statememt is that they mean golf in its totality. What they really mean is, the frankly pretty small business in a global context, the elite professional golf industry. They want and believe there is growth in that, and there probably is, beyond the established tours. But that has no consequence for us, the global population of recreational golfers.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'.

Golf is doing fine , and unaffected by this commercial contest for control of the entertainment branch.

Elite millionaire athletes in  golf are in turmoil alright.

Its similar to the 'grow the game of golf' mantra from LIV. What they leave people with the illusion of with that statememt is that they mean golf in its totality. What they really mean is, the frankly pretty small business in a global context, the elite professional golf industry. They want and believe there is growth in that, and there probably is, beyond the established tours. But that has no consequence for us, the global population of recreational golfers.
		
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Not sure I'd agree with the last point, if LIV can take top proffesional golfers and get them playing regular events across the continents, that has to have a positive knock on effect for golf in general. The series has already created global interest - and it looks like there will be 3 events in Oz, 1 x LIV event and 2 x Asian Tour events.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not sure I'd agree with the last point, if LIV can take top proffesional golfers and get them playing regular events across the continents, that has to have a positive knock on effect for golf in general. The series has already created global interest - and it looks like there will be 3 events in Oz, 1 x LIV event and 2 x Asian Tour events.
		
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I agree that golf should be a global game and that there are fans all over the world of the sport 

A global tour would be great for the sport and imo the tours should have joined together to find a way of getting events all over the world 

But and it’s a big but

There have been Co sanction events all over the world - they haven’t worked. Even the WGC in China has poor viewing from outside US and Europe , spectator levels poor , the same when they went to Australia to try events , and also Japan , even in the Middle East the level of spectators is poor - those events only survive because of over boosted sponsership. 

Unfortunately whilst the golf has world wide appeal it’s two biggest markets are US and Europe - for events to be successful and not be reliant on big deep pockets to make it sustainable you need those two markets and it’s hard to get people to watch events on the other side of the world. 

For those events in Australia to work they need to be supported over there - it’s not worked in the past


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## r0wly86 (Aug 10, 2022)

golf in China is not a big thing, it was considered by the communist party to be a sport of the elite and anti-communist

Japan has a lot of golfers, but I don't know what the market is for golf tours of mostly foreign golfers, Japan can be quite insular, if Mastuyama was playing then I'm sure he would get a lot of support but not sure whether they would turn up for a load of Americans.

Middle East, mainly is a golfing destination, not a domestic market. Liverpoolphil is right about the markets though.

Golf markets in $.

USA - 86bn
Europe - 15bn
Australia - 420m

It's not even close the PGA is dominant because golf in the USA is so much bigger than anywhere else, 6 times bigger than the next biggest market, which funnily enough has the second biggest tour.

A true global game will not exist without a governing body that oversees all tours with the express remit to grow the game.

If, LIV survive long enough to the point that they then become a rival to the PGAT they will stop going to places like Australia and Middle East. They will concentrate mainly in USA with occasional European jaunts. They will want to become sustainable and playing tournaments in those other countries would cost them money.


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## Beezerk (Aug 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			golf in China is not a big thing, it was considered by the communist party to be a sport of the elite and anti-communist

Japan has a lot of golfers, but I don't know what the market is for golf tours of mostly foreign golfers, Japan can be quite insular, if Mastuyama was playing then I'm sure he would get a lot of support but not sure whether they would turn up for a load of Americans.

Middle East, mainly is a golfing destination, not a domestic market. Liverpoolphil is right about the markets though.

Golf markets in $.

USA - 86bn
Europe - 15bn
Australia - 420m

It's not even close the PGA is dominant because golf in the USA is so much bigger than anywhere else, 6 times bigger than the next biggest market, which funnily enough has the second biggest tour.

A true global game will not exist without a governing body that oversees all tours with the express remit to grow the game.

If, LIV survive long enough to the point that they then become a rival to the PGAT they will stop going to places like Australia and Middle East. They will concentrate mainly in USA with occasional European jaunts. They will want to become sustainable and playing tournaments in those other countries would cost them money.
		
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You conveniently missed out South Korea, golf is massive there isn’t it? It’s like a conveyor belt of great (generally female) golfers coming from there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			You conveniently missed out South Korea, golf is massive there isn’t it? It’s like a conveyor belt of great (generally female) golfers coming from there.
		
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Golf in South Korea is 4th biggest behind US , Europe and Japan - around $880mil 

It’s massively popular on the ladies - second biggest market 

Both it seems at the moment it seems with the US tours - JH Kim the latest to go and win 

Not sure what LIV events are scheduled there and don’t know what South Korean golfers they have got or targeted but it’s certainly a huge market for golf


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 10, 2022)

Ok, Inadmit I cannot be bothered to read the previous pages, but is the anti LIV arguement because it’s a Saudi thing or because they wanted to have their own piece of the golf tour pie?
Dont the Saudis invest heavily in the LET, as well as other global sports (F1 for starters)?
I wouldn’t say PGA tour was that benevolent either, deliberately ignoring the European tour(again, heavily sponsored by Arabic money)

Perhaps they should all co exist and when one of them realises they need to change then compromise might happen.


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## CountLippe (Aug 10, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ok, Inadmit I cannot be bothered to read the previous pages, but is the anti LIV arguement because it’s a Saudi thing or because they wanted to have their own piece of the golf tour pie?
Dont the Saudis invest heavily in the LET, as well as other global sports (F1 for starters)?
I wouldn’t say PGA tour was that benevolent either, deliberately ignoring the European tour(again, heavily sponsored by Arabic money)

Perhaps they should all co exist and when one of them realises they need to change then compromise might happen.
		
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Reasons I don't like it:
1. Sports washing.
2. Its a bit rubbish.

However, I'm not averse to the PGA tour getting a bloody nose and its interesting that its the South African and Australian golfers who seem most up for.  Shame the PGA tour never picked up the phone to premier golf league.


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## larmen (Aug 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'
		
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Like wrestling. You have the sport where people are trying to win wearing red or blue spandex versus the show element of WWE where the result is ‘irrelevant’ and the storyline is the focus.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can someone just clarify: Are LIV golfers not getting any prize money, until the total prize money increases beyond their sign on fee? Is that a fact now?

If true, it is clear evidence that LIV representatives lied through their teeth, as they were adamant this was NOT the case when reporters where asking the question a month or so ago. Furthermore, it really removed much of the competitive element entirely. Some on here argued that of course there was competition when they were competing for that sort of money. However, they are not really, if they've already payed up front, regardless of how they play. Some might feel they'll only ever play in 7 or so events, and will never win enough to exceed that sign on fee. Then you look at Phil Mickleson, how long is it going to take him to win more than $200 million in prize money? The way he is playing, and the time he has at playing at a high level (which has already past anyway), it is incredibly unlikely he'd ever win that amount, to start getting additional funds on top of that sign on fee. So, if the above is true, no wonder he is just hacking his way around the course every week.
		
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Brooks K and other players emphatically said that was not true in one of the press conferences.


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## yandabrown (Aug 10, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Brooks K and other players emphatically said that was not true in one of the press conferences.
		
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They aren't all necessarily on the same contract, certainly the values differ, clauses may too.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 10, 2022)

Very similar to the Brooks K response at the US Open?

Just say no if you haven't already signed as reported..


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			. The series has already created global interest.
		
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The series, as in the golf, has created limited to no interest. For the three tournaments so far, it is a complete failure. They will claim, early days, acorns, etc, to spin that lack of interest.

The interest, such as it is, is generated by the PGAT v Saudi Golf Tour contest. That is a spectator sport, and the golf world is tuned in to see where it goes.

But nobody is excited about 54 holes and Schwarzel 'winning' again if it can even be called a victory. Nor seeing Phil who is in demo or Champions tour mode, and no longer relevant to top flight golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The series, as in the golf, has created limited to no interest. For the three tournaments so far, it is a complete failure. They will claim, early days, acorns, etc, to spin that lack of interest.

The interest, such as it is, is generated by the PGAT v Saudi Golf Tour contest. That is a spectator sport, and the golf world is tuned in to see where it goes.

But nobody is excited about 54 holes and Schwarzel 'winning' again if it can even be called a victory. Nor seeing Phil who is in demo or Champions tour mode, and no longer relevant to top flight golf.
		
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How much interest has "the golf" created on the PGA Tour since The Open, apart from Finau managing to win a couple of events there hasn't been a headline, and that wasn't down the the golf, it was down to Finau seemingly ending his run of perpetual inability to convert his ability into wins - albeit against very average fields.
That's the nature of the sport.
The nature of Formula 1 makes it pretty much an exhibition sport - but it's popularity golbally is undeniable.

I'm not denying there's interest around LIV because of the sitaution with the PGA Tour, thanks to the actions of the Commisioner. Maybe if he'd taken that call from GN, LIV wouldn't have got the airtime it has, the players wouldn't have seen a need to take the money on the table, and the PGA would be as strong as ever.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How much interest has "the golf" created on the PGA Tour since The Open, apart from Finau managing to win a couple of events there hasn't been a headline, and that wasn't down the the golf, it was down to Finau seemingly ending his run of perpetual inability to convert his ability into wins - albeit against very average fields.
That's the nature of the sport.
The nature of Formula 1 makes it pretty much an exhibition sport - but it's popularity golbally is undeniable.

I'm not denying there's interest around LIV because of the sitaution with the PGA Tour, thanks to the actions of the Commisioner. Maybe if he'd taken that call from GN, LIV wouldn't have got the airtime it has, the players wouldn't have seen a need to take the money on the table, and the PGA would be as strong as ever.
		
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Can you even look or understand that the issues aren’t all down to the PGA ? 

I said a while back that LIV and their bots spend all day and every day pointing fingers at the PGAT and Monahan - have they even considered that they have caused a lot of issues that are happening right now ? 

Apart from Mickleson how many golfers were complaining about the PGAT ? How many fans were bothered by Monahan wage ? Players only getting paid when they succeed? The events where some top players don’t play ? 

No one - 

it’s only LIV and their very well placed bots on social media creating issues 

The other day someone made a claim about the PGA tour telling 3 Japanese players that if they played in the Singapore Open then they would be banned from a Zazoo Event on Asian Tour - it was all nonsense , no substance behind it and PGA stated it was clearly false - but all these new “LIV” shouted it loud enough people believed it and then once again fingers pointed towards the tour 

LIV and their social media fans are playing a huge part in all the issues , they are using social media and all these accounts to create more mess - instead of them pointing fingers they need to look at themselves


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So does that mean that for LIV events, you dont actually 'win' any money, so may as well lose ?
Or is it a sort of indentured slavery, where you must win what you have been paid up front, however long that takes. The quicker you 'win' that sum back, the quicker you buy your freedom ?
		
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Perhaps. But I'm more inclined to think it more likely that a portion of their winnings is held back against the 'guarantee' - as opposed to 'all' or 'none'. And also to be noted is the qualifier 'some players'. So unless all the contracts are made available, which won't happen, or a (disenchanted?) player makes an announcement, the arrangements will remain private.


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## Springveldt (Aug 10, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Very similar to the Brooks K response at the US Open?

Just say no if you haven't already signed as reported..







Click to expand...

I'll be amazed if he doesn't join LIV now with how he's answering the question.


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seems a few of the LIV bots aren’t doing any updates this morning after the court case

Judge was very critical of LIV , was very clear that there is no damage to the players if they are banned and that PGA isn’t “monopolised” the sport and as she said if LIV claim they have 20% of the golf market how can PGA have the monopoly 🤷‍♂️

Can see last being a bit of a green light moment for PGA and majors and ET to bring in the bans

And obviously the fact that the contract players aren’t playing for any prize money as such 😂😂😂 so it’s pretty much an exhibition for them

Also the main court case may not start for 3 years
		
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What makes you thing the Judge was 'very critical' of LIV? I believe she simply ruled on its merits. The late filing seems to have actually hurt LIV's case. And her and defendent statement about the necessity for a TRO as opposed to 'relief' in the later case is certainly valid. 
I don't think Robert Walker will be LIV's attorney for the main case - that will only be delayed if the lawyers don't accept the timeline - as he made a number of obvious blunders!


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can someone just clarify: Are LIV golfers not getting any prize money, until the total prize money increases beyond their sign on fee? Is that a fact now?

If true, it is clear evidence that LIV representatives lied through their teeth, as they were adamant this was NOT the case when reporters where asking the question a month or so ago. Furthermore, it really removed much of the competitive element entirely. Some on here argued that of course there was competition when they were competing for that sort of money. However, they are not really, if they've already payed up front, regardless of how they play. Some might feel they'll only ever play in 7 or so events, and will never win enough to exceed that sign on fee. Then you look at Phil Mickleson, how long is it going to take him to win more than $200 million in prize money? The way he is playing, and the time he has at playing at a high level (which has already past anyway), it is incredibly unlikely he'd ever win that amount, to start getting additional funds on top of that sign on fee. So, if the above is true, no wonder he is just hacking his way around the course every week.
		
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The statement mentioned 'some'. So maybe not all, and maybe not all prize money is being offset. Unless the contracts are made public, which won't happen, we'll never know.
But the LIV statement in reply to the suggestion was clearly misleading at best.


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not sure I'd agree with the last point, if LIV can take top proffesional golfers and get them playing regular events across the continents, that has to have a positive knock on effect for golf in general. The series has already created global interest - and it looks like there will be 3 events in Oz, 1 x LIV event and 2 x Asian Tour events.
		
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Effectively 'buying' the Asian Tour was a smart move by the Saudis!
Though it would be pretty severe for those LIV players that chose LIV because of the reduction in travelling!


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 10, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I'll be amazed if he doesn't join LIV now with how he's answering the question.
		
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It would seem to be a done deal from the reports and his refusal to deny said reports.

Next one under the spotlight will be Hideki Matsuyama who is also heavily linked with already having signed for Liv.

The full transfers wont happen till after the presidents cup or they wont play their 1st Liv event till after the Presidents Cup.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557177455143690241


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## rksquire (Aug 10, 2022)

I 'watched' the live feed for the hearing last night, both sides legal eagles made quite a few factual mistakes picked up by other outlets but the 'spirit' of what they were trying to achieve came across; the judge did appear to soften slightly as it went on but ultimately found the remuneration the 3 had already received from LIV easily offset the need to participate in the playoffs; "Irreparable harm" could not be demonstrated (as if it ever could have been).  However, she did confirm the larger case had merit and there are antitrust questions to be answer.  The PGAT legals also recognised LIV as "competing effectively".  There's a bit to go, but if the PGAT can stop, say, Smith, Cantlay and Hovland as examples, signing for LIV, that could stem any momentum LIV had as an attractive alternative (and just about ensure the "best players in the world" nonsense has some merit - the Fed Ex Playoffs does not have the best 125 players in the world competing, no matter how you look at it... it has most, but that's a slightly different statement).

As punishment for the trio who sought the TRO, the PGAT should welcome them back and ask them to grow the game for a year as part of their PGA Tour China (no awkward human rights question to answer with that expansion.....).


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 10, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ok, Inadmit I cannot be bothered to read the previous pages, but is the anti LIV arguement because it’s a Saudi thing or because they wanted to have their own piece of the golf tour pie?
Dont the Saudis invest heavily in the LET, as well as other global sports (F1 for starters)?
I wouldn’t say PGA tour was that benevolent either, deliberately ignoring the European tour(again, heavily sponsored by Arabic money)

Perhaps they should all co exist and when one of them realises they need to change then compromise might happen.
		
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Not necessarily anything to do with the Saudis for me.  Personally I'm not interested in watching limited fields of past their best golfers in a contrived matchplay format.  The graphics & commentary on what little I have watched remind me of The Hundred in cricket; flashy graphics and motormouth commentators spouting BS to appeal those of a limited attention span.  Nothing about the product much appeals to me, and anything that gets Trump's endorsement is worth avoiding for me.  Add the porkies told about the reasons for joining and there's nothing about the product that appeals to me.  And the icing on the cake are the various legal actions.

There is absolutely no chance of co-existence whilst Greg Norman is at the helm in my opinion; he apparently feels slighted by the PGA Tour and seems determined to right that wrong by bringing them down


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## Reemul (Aug 10, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not necessarily anything to do with the Saudis for me.  Personally I'm not interested in watching limited fields of past their best golfers in a contrived matchplay format.  The graphics & commentary on what little I have watched remind me of The Hundred in cricket; flashy graphics and motormouth commentators spouting BS to appeal those of a limited attention span.  Nothing about the product much appeals to me, and anything that gets Trump's endorsement is worth avoiding for me.  Add the porkies told about the reasons for joining and there's nothing about the product that appeals to me.  And the icing on the cake are the various legal actions.

There is absolutely no chance of co-existence whilst Greg Norman is at the helm in my opinion; he apparently feels slighted by the PGA Tour and seems determined to right that wrong by bringing them down
		
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I'm off to the hundered in a few weeks, it's great fun it's accessible, the kids love it the crowds are great even the wife is coming along. There is always the odd miserable fart who can't stomach any sort of change, it's understandable but it's no reason to not try different things, we can always move on without them...


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 10, 2022)

Reemul said:



			I'm off to the hundered in a few weeks, it's great fun it's accessible, the kids love it the crowds are great even the wife is coming along. There is always the odd miserable fart who can't stomach any sort of change, it's understandable but it's no reason to not try different things, we can always move on without them...
		
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Hundred is propped up at Yorkshire with lots of free tickets. Probably elsewhere too. Sounds familiar...


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 10, 2022)

Reemul said:



			I'm off to the hundered in a few weeks, it's great fun it's accessible, the kids love it the crowds are great even the wife is coming along. There is always the odd miserable fart who can't stomach any sort of change, it's understandable but it's no reason to not try different things, we can always move on without them...
		
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Going to it is one thing; you are probably spared the inane waffle that is Kevin Pietersen.  Watching it on the box with the hideous graphics is quite another.  

As for your odd miserable old fart comment, you embarrass yourself; if you have to resort to insults to make your case then you haven't got one.  I'm quite happy watching T20 without the graphics and the verbal diarrhoea; it's the TV presentation I have the issue with, not the cricket.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 10, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not necessarily anything to do with the Saudis for me.  Personally I'm not interested in watching limited fields of past their best golfers in a contrived matchplay format.  The graphics & commentary on what little I have watched remind me of The Hundred in cricket; flashy graphics and motormouth commentators spouting BS to appeal those of a limited attention span.  Nothing about the product much appeals to me, and anything that gets Trump's endorsement is worth avoiding for me.  Add the porkies told about the reasons for joining and there's nothing about the product that appeals to me.  And the icing on the cake are the various legal actions.

There is absolutely no chance of co-existence whilst Greg Norman is at the helm in my opinion; he apparently feels slighted by the PGA Tour and seems determined to right that wrong by bringing them down
		
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I confess, what little I did see of the first event didn't make me want more, and like you an invitation field isn't what I want to watch. I haven't bothered to get  into the arguements between all the different parties, my life is too full and busy for that, but I wouldn't be suprised if falsehoods and counter claims were flying about, especially where money is concerned.
The Hundred, I get your point, but it has put cricket ( or a form of it) into a family/kids enviroment that hopefully will mean more boys and girls taking up the game. I know my wife is more interested in the Hundred, than say an ODI or Test match. But I do see your point, and have some agreement with you on it.
We watch it on BBC, so are Peterson free


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Interesting and seemingly unbiased article here. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...il-mickelson-rory-mcilroy-tv-streaming-rights


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## Oddsocks (Aug 10, 2022)

Apparent Cam Percy had been reported missing…….


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 10, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I confess, what little I did see of the first event didn't make me want more, and like you an invitation field isn't what I want to watch. I haven't bothered to get  into the arguements between all the different parties, my life is too full and busy for that, but I wouldn't be suprised if falsehoods and counter claims were flying about, especially where money is concerned.
The Hundred, I get your point, but it has put cricket ( or a form of it) into a family/kids enviroment that hopefully will mean more boys and girls taking up the game. I know my wife is more interested in the Hundred, than say an ODI or Test match. But I do see your point, and have some agreement with you on it.
We watch it on BBC, so are Peterson free

Click to expand...

My point about The Hundred wasn't the cricket itself, purely the hideous graphics and motormouth commentary.  Wasn't aware it was on the BBC so I'll look out for it there, and like your Mrs, Mrs BiM would be prepared to give The Hundred or a T20 game a run.

The porkies relate more to the flannel about playing less when LIV is signing them up to one less tournament than the PGA, less travel when they'll be off to Asia and the Middle East more than they'd need to with the PGA Tour and growing the game, which of course they couldn't do on the PGA Tour with the First Tee programme.

I think Richard Bland was fairly open about his reasons for going, others not so much.  And I wouldn't disagree with your point about both sides not being entirely honest in their claims.


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## fundy (Aug 10, 2022)

Reemul said:



			I'm off to the hundered in a few weeks, it's great fun it's accessible, the kids love it the crowds are great even the wife is coming along. There is always the odd miserable fart who can't stomach any sort of change, it's understandable but it's no reason to not try different things, we can always move on without them...
		
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that would be fine if in the process they hadnt seriously damaged the county championship, turned the Royal London One Day Cup into a second team competition and the T20 blast into a feeder comp

call me an old fart who cant stomach change all you like but destroying everything that was good with the domestic game to shoehorn in a vanity project, purely about raising money for a select few, under the guise of attracting a few new fans who couldnt stomach an extra 20 balls in each innings is where i draw the line

obviously you are local to one of the franchises cities, what are fans who now dont have a team within 100 miles of where they live supposed to do?

genuinely what does the hundred have that the t20 blast doesnt that appeals to your wife?


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## sunshine (Aug 10, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Cam Smith trending on Twitter saying that he and Leishman are signing for LIV after the Tour Championship.

He could be world #1 by then.
		
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Why have you made this up?

Maybe he will go to Liv, but he’s said nothing about it at all.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Why have you made this up?

Maybe he will go to Liv, but he’s said nothing about it at all.
		
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He’s not made anything up, he said it’s trending on Twitter, which it definitely has been today.


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## IainP (Aug 10, 2022)

I'd posted previously I thought the ruling wouldn't go in favour of the three. Right now it feels bit of a poor PR move. There seemed a bit if a growing view of 'PGAT administrators = bad', and this seems to have switched that around. I don't really buy the 'suing the players' line, but it's been a successful media angle.
Have read a few rambles from US based legal people saying the pitch for the 3 was clearly not going to fly  - either this was a 1st hand in a longer messy game, or the liv lawer was just a bit rubbish!


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## IainP (Aug 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He’s not made anything up, he said it’s trending on Twitter, which it definitely has been today.
		
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To be fair the post was a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation IMO. I think sunshine read it as 'Cam Smith had said it' (I also read it that way initially), whereas we know it was a different Cam who said it.


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## Dando (Aug 10, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Apparent Cam Percy had been reported missing…….
		
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he’s looking for my short game. Not sure we’ll ever see him again


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## Green Man (Aug 10, 2022)

Must be the day of Cams. Times reporting that Cam Young is joining LIV.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...th-to-liv-after-fedex-cup-play-offs-6mvg0lqn2


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2022)

Dando said:



			he’s looking for my short game. Not sure we’ll ever see him again
		
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Scary mofos etc.


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2022)

Green Man said:



			Must be the day of Cams. Times reporting that Cam Young is joining LIV.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...th-to-liv-after-fedex-cup-play-offs-6mvg0lqn2

Click to expand...

There are far too many Camerons on the PGAT anyway. Its tee to green Camerons. About time they were thinned out.


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## sunshine (Aug 10, 2022)

IainP said:



			To be fair the post was a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation IMO. I think sunshine read it as 'Cam Smith had said it' (I also read it that way initially), whereas we know it was a different Cam who said it.
		
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That’s the way I read it because that’s the way it was written. Blatant lies. Maybe ultimately Smith will go to Liv, but he hasn’t said anything about it.


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## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			There are far too many Camerons on the PGAT anyway. Its tee to green Camerons. About time they were thinned out.
		
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Plenty seen ON the greens too. Not entirely sure why though.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			That’s the way I read it because that’s the way it was written. Blatant lies. Maybe ultimately Smith will go to Liv, but he hasn’t said anything about it.
		
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He hasn't said he's going to LIV, but he's going out of his way to avoid actually saying he's not going to LIV.  Conclusion; he's going to LIV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 10, 2022)

Reemul said:



			I'm off to the hundered in a few weeks, it's great fun it's accessible, the kids love it the crowds are great even the wife is coming along. There is always the odd miserable fart who can't stomach any sort of change, it's understandable but it's no reason to not try different things, we can always move on without them...
		
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My dislike for the Hundred is nothing to do with hating change 

It’s the fact it’s ruining domestic cricket for the sack of forced teams being franchised out of the test grounds 

Right now the One day cup is going on plus some county games and some counties have had their teams ripped apart 

All they needed to do was to put all that money and effort into the T20 blast - all the hundred does is appeal to franchise whores like Pietersen 

It’s 20 balls less , and it’s ruining the domestic county game


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## Backsticks (Aug 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			He hasn't said he's going to LIV, but he's going out of his way to avoid actually saying he's not going to LIV.  Conclusion; he's going to LIV.
		
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Yes. He's going. After the Fedex, and maybe the Presidents. He may as well say - look, if I said I was going to LiV I couldnt play in the Fedex, so do you really think Mr Reporter, that even if I am going to go, I would say it ?

He is another driving deeper of the wedge. He is a player who matters. The PGAT has had another chip knocked off it.

There are 30 players who matter in determining the strenght of a tour. You can tolerate the loss of 1 or 2. But if the Saudis can get toward 10, then the pgat is undeniably hobbled. It still wont make LIV any good - that will still be just exhibition golf with worthless "wins".

So we would have the worst of both worlds. Bad for pro golf. Bad for golf spectators.


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## IainP (Aug 11, 2022)

GB72 said:



			It is an interesting one because I also have moral issues with the funding but I also do not have any sport subscriptions and so, as far as what i can watch is concerned, the PGA Tour does not exist to me, the DP World Tour does not exist, the LPGA does not exist and so my golf viewing was simply highlights of the majors. Now I can watch some live golf. At least with other sports, there is some that is not hidden behind a pretty expensive pay wall, there is some football on TV, there is rugby on TV (and on Amazon Prime that I have for the delivery but the sport is a bonus), there is tennis on TV and on prime, there is some cricket on TV in fact golf is about the only sport that, until now, had absolutely no free to air coverage in the UK outside of highlights of the majors. There are many faults with LIV, the funding etc but as far as viewing is concerned, it is for me the only game in town.
		
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Just to share, if willing to download the freesports app, the International Series golf is currently on (believe next weeks is also)


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## Springveldt (Aug 11, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Why have you made this up?

Maybe he will go to Liv, but he’s said nothing about it at all.
		
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Made what up? It was trending all morning that Cam Smith and Leishman were going to LIV. There is also the chance he will be world number 1 by then.

Edit: oh, you read the “he said” part as Cam Smith saying it rather than people on Twitter saying “he and Leishman have signed”. Wording wasn’t great I agree but to start saying someone has made something up is a bit unreasonable. Looking at your posts though that seems to be your MO.


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## Springveldt (Aug 11, 2022)

sunshine said:



			That’s the way I read it because that’s the way it was written. Blatant lies. Maybe ultimately Smith will go to Liv, but he hasn’t said anything about it.
		
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Blatant lies? FML. 😂😂😂


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 11, 2022)

This is from Atul Khosla, the President and COO of Liv Golf, on the contracted money versus prize money argument, that has been jumped on from the courtroom this week.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is from Atul Khosla, the President and COO of Liv Golf, on the contracted money versus prize money argument, that has been jumped on from the courtroom this week.
		
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It's strange that the reverse was said to be true within court. After all, I imagine many of the people involved in those court proceedings know a heck of a lot more details than all of us expressing our views on a Golf Monthly forum. Furthermore, they are in a position that they'd have to defend what they say, if any of that is shown to be categorically untrue.

So, any explanations why some very qualified people determined that prize money was taken of contracted money, at least in some cases?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is from Atul Khosla, the President and COO of Liv Golf, on the contracted money versus prize money argument, that has been jumped on from the courtroom this week.
		
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The contracts were known to the courts - so are the lawyers and courts lying ?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It's strange that the reverse was said to be true within court. After all, I imagine many of the people involved in those court proceedings know a heck of a lot more details than all of us expressing our views on a Golf Monthly forum. Furthermore, they are in a position that they'd have to defend what they say, if any of that is shown to be categorically untrue.

So, any explanations why some very qualified people determined that prize money was taken of contracted money, at least in some cases?
		
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I’ve read somewhere that the topic came under a spell of quick questions across the courtroom, in which there seemed to be an element of confusion as to the payments against contracts.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The contracts were known to the courts - so are the lawyers and courts lying ?
		
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Is the Liv president, and everybody that has denied this issue lying?

The explanation will be that incorrect information was reported from the courtroom.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is the Liv president, and everybody that has denied this issue lying?

The explanation will be that incorrect information was reported from the courtroom.
		
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Yes I believe the LIV President could be lying 

Part of the court proceedings was disclosure was showing the contracts


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## Swango1980 (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’ve read somewhere that the topic came under a spell of quick questions across the courtroom, in which there seemed to be an element of confusion as to the payments against contracts.
		
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Given that this issue was one of the hot topics before the court case, I'd be surprised that people speaking in court were not prepared. Or, at the very least, lawyers on behalf of LIV players clarified that any statement like this was untrue.


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## Springveldt (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is the Liv president, and everybody that has denied this issue lying?

The explanation will be that incorrect information was reported from the courtroom.
		
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Possibly. I’d be very surprised if the lawyer just made it up in court. Something doesn’t smell right to me.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 11, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Possibly. I’d be very surprised if the lawyer just made it up in court. Something doesn’t smell right to me.
		
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rksquire has already reported factual mistakes were made in the courtroom. It’s quite feasible that a mistake could have been made on this issue.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I believe the LIV President could be lying

Part of the court proceedings was disclosure was showing the contracts
		
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And Brooks etc, and the third party witnesses that denied Chamblees claims when he made them….?

All lying?


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## rksquire (Aug 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The contracts were known to the courts - so are the lawyers and courts lying ?
		
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Yes (not deliberately) - but also no; the representations were littered with inaccuracies but the initial judgement was not based on any of these inaccuracies.  Keyboard legal experts (including myself and a number of blue ticks) pick something up and escalate it to demonstrate it is something that it may, in fact, be not.  Let's hope both parties are better prepared.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And Brooks etc, and the third party witnesses that denied Chamblees claims when he made them….?

All lying?
		
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I remember the players being asked. They were very uncomfortable about answering that question. Possibly because they just didn't want to talk money. But, also possibly because players are on different deals, and LIV want certain things to remain confidential so as not to damage the image (further). Therefore, they didn't want to put their foot in it by saying the wrong thing.

Assuming those are the actual words of the LIV president, it could simply be worded carefully that makes it seem absolutely clear that prize money is given to all players on top of what their sign on fee is, but if challenged in court would be able to squirm his way out of that statement as not being technically false. After all prize money is separate to the contract money, in that if the player does not win any prize money, they still get the contracted amount. Furthermore, any prize money they earn is not literally subtracted from the sign on money already in the bank. It might just mean that they are simply not entitled to prize money at that point.

It has been known that a President of an organisation (or country), and the people working for them, have been known to lie or be very colourful with the truth. So, I wouldn't pin too much confidence on his statement given the contradictory information out there. If LIV truly believe that what was suggested in court is categorically untrue, surely they could just publicly challenge this and ask for the court to correct this "inaccuracy"?


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## RRidges (Aug 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I believe the LIV President could be lying

Part of the court proceedings was disclosure was showing the contracts
		
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I wouldn't suggest he was lying.
But his statement doesn't actually contradict the actual court statement - that winnings, for some players, are offset against contractual 'guarantees'.
Obfuscation is an essential part of an executive's skill set! LIV's arrangements have been particularly, and understandably, kept private.
To me, the fact that LIV's legal team actually mentioned it makes it more likely than not that it is the case. There would be absolutely no reason for him to make that statement otherwise. And the contracts of the 3 claimants were apparently available, at least to the Judge, though may not have had such clauses in them.


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## Springveldt (Aug 11, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I wouldn't suggest he was lying.
But his statement doesn't actually contradict the actual court statement - that winnings, for some players, are offset against contractual 'guarantees'.
Obfuscation is an essential part of an executive's skill set! LIV's arrangements have been particularly, and understandably, kept private.
To me, the fact that LIV's legal team actually mentioned it makes it more likely than not that it is the case. There would be absolutely no reason for him to make that statement otherwise. And the contracts of the 3 claimants were apparently available, at least to the Judge, though may not have had such clauses in them.
		
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Yep, it could mean something along the lines of for example Talor Gooch got $30M (no idea how much he actually got btw and this is all guesswork in case anyone claims I'm trying to spread lies...) to play on LIV. $15M was a signing bonus which is the "contractual money" but also got a $15M "loan" up front that any winnings will pay back. Technically he is still getting is winnings but is paying back a non-contractual loan.

Or the lawyer could have screwed up and everyone on LIV gets every penny they win as "new" money.

There have been a few murmurings about players not getting the new money so maybe the LIV president is playing a word game. I guess we will probably never find out.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 11, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I wouldn't suggest he was lying.
But his statement doesn't actually contradict the actual court statement - that winnings, for some players, are offset against contractual 'guarantees'.
Obfuscation is an essential part of an executive's skill set! *LIV's arrangements have been particularly, and understandably, kept private*.
To me, the fact that LIV's legal team actually mentioned it makes it more likely than not that it is the case. There would be absolutely no reason for him to make that statement otherwise. And the contracts of the 3 claimants were apparently available, at least to the Judge, though may not have had such clauses in them.
		
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It is interesting that we all seem to know how much money certain players were given to play on LIV. We know Mickleson got $200 million. We know Tiger was offered closer to a billion. Yet, the actual small details of what they are getting is being kept very private seemingly, or the wording of their contracts.

It is as though LIV are only too happy for these huge sign on fees to made public (and the players probably need to agree to this as one of the conditions), so that these huge sums will get other big players thinking about joining themselves. Maybe it also makes them feel legitimate, having all this money to splash around. However, they don't want the other details of these contracts to be known, simply because it isn't quite as lucrative as it sounds (still hugely lucrative, but not to the extent that all the players are just having more and more cash thrown at them every time they tee up in a tournament)


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## RRidges (Aug 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is interesting that we all seem to know how much money certain players were given to play on LIV. We know Mickleson got $200 million. We know Tiger was offered closer to a billion. Yet, the actual small details of what they are getting is being kept very private seemingly, or the wording of their contracts.

It is as though LIV are only too happy for these huge sign on fees to made public (and the players probably need to agree to this as one of the conditions), so that these huge sums will get other big players thinking about joining themselves. Maybe it also makes them feel legitimate, having all this money to splash around. However, they don't want the other details of these contracts to be known, simply because it isn't quite as lucrative as it sounds (still hugely lucrative, but not to the extent that all the players are just having more and more cash thrown at them every time they tee up in a tournament)
		
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I'm uncertain about whether 'we know' any of the real figures - and I'm not particularly interested.
But there are certainly sufficient hesitations in interviews from LIV players and obfuscation (I've been waiting for an opportunity to use that word) to make me suspect that there's some chicanery going on. The bombardment of Twitter with 'insights' by a bunch of unknown users that could well be bots is a practice that grates with me.
I don't think Fred Couples is particularly enamoured with LIV or Norman either. https://golf.com/news/fred-couples-liv-roast-targets-tour-critics-greg-norman/


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## BiMGuy (Aug 11, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557786457347063808


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## woofers (Aug 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is from Atul Khosla, the President and COO of Liv Golf, on the contracted money versus prize money argument, that has been jumped on from the courtroom this week.
		
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Ha, very clever and clear as mud. If “that’s all there is to it” the statement would clear any ambiguity and say “This issue is simple, we’ve addressed it before. Prize money is of course separate from signing on fees, and I can clarify for you that prize money is not subtracted from any other payments”. Instead he chooses to use the words “contractual monies that players earn” and “players contractual earnings”…..whatever they are ?


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## Jigger (Aug 12, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Surely thats in addition to the main subscription?
		
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To sky (£22) yes but not on top of other sports.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

woofers said:



			Ha, very clever and clear as mud. If “that’s all there is to it” the statement would clear any ambiguity and say “This issue is simple, we’ve addressed it before. Prize money is of course separate from signing on fees, and I can clarify for you that prize money is not subtracted from any other payments”. Instead he chooses to use the words “contractual monies that players earn” and “players contractual earnings”…..whatever they are ?
		
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I think it's pretty clear myself, "Prize money is not subtracted from contractual earnings" 

Prize money = well, prize money
Contractual earnings = Payments for signing contracts to join LIV

Then there's the blindingly obvious fact that if it was all a cover up, and the players are being deducted prize money from their cotracted payemnts, would be a pretty difficult "lie" to keep hidden from the public.


I've seen loads of players, and people connected with LIV deny this to be the case, and conversely I've seen Brandel Chamblee making the claim (crackpot as far as LIV is concerned), and what looks like a mis-understanding in a court room.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557786457347063808

Click to expand...

Savage burn from the judge.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 12, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557840250638057473


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 12, 2022)

Very funny... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557466044016390144


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 12, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557752028721553415
What a 🔔


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557752028721553415
What a 🔔
		
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Total dosser doing that, show some class pal.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557752028721553415
What a 🔔
		
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Didn’t he just walk between Cam and the hole? I think Cams ball was the other side. May be wrong though.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Total dosser doing that, show some class pal.
		
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Nothing wrong with that according to some in the pro golf thread 🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Total dosser doing that, show some class pal.
		
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What’s he done wrong 🤷‍♂️


saving_par said:



			Nothing wrong with that according to some in the pro golf thread 🤣
		
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What is the issue with what Scheffler did ?


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## BrianM (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s he done wrong 🤷‍♂️


What is the issue with what Scheffler did ?
		
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I Believe his marker was on the other side and Cameron was just looking at the line from the other side.
But to walk in front of him when he's looking at the line isn't the right thing to do either.
I wouldn't even do that to someone in a bounce game and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either, it was a poor thing to do.


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s he done wrong 🤷‍♂️


What is the issue with what Scheffler did ?
		
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Well obviously I can’t see the whole thing from the camera angle but it looks like SS walks in front of Cam Smith while he’s looking at a putt. Do you think that’s good golf etiquette? I’m pretty certain had someone done that to you you’d be crying from the roof tops, I know I wouldn’t be happy about it.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Very funny...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557466044016390144

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Quite appropriate considering who is funding LiV.

GN putting on his Insta shows just what a classless nob he is.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s he done wrong 🤷‍♂️


What is the issue with what Scheffler did ?
		
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It’s bad etiquette. 
Part of golfs tradition is respecting your playing partners and opponents. 

Scheffler has clearly failed to do that here, as you can see from Cam Smiths reaction.


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## Imurg (Aug 12, 2022)

It's a bit lacking in class.....just like 90% of professional golf at the moment.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I Believe his marker was on the other side and Cameron was just looking at the line from the other side.
But to walk in front of him when he's looking at the line isn't the right thing to do either.
I wouldn't even do that to someone in a bounce game and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either, it was a poor thing to do.
		
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oh I thought it was because something was said ?! 

The ball was on the other side of the hole , Cam was even laughing with Scheffler later , he wasn’t standing on his line etc

Seems like some just making an issue out of nothing 


Beezerk said:



			Well obviously I can’t see the whole thing from the camera angle but it looks like SS walks in front of Cam Smith while he’s looking at a putt. Do you think that’s good golf etiquette? I’m pretty certain had someone done that to you you’d be crying from the roof tops, I know I wouldn’t be happy about it.
		
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The ball was on the other side of the flag ? It’s a non issue and yes seen it happen many times and have had people walking in front of line , it’s not an issue


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s bad etiquette.
Part of golfs tradition is respecting your playing partners and opponents.

Scheffler has clearly failed to do that here, as you can see from Cam Smiths reaction.
		
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Such a crime has got to be worth at least a 100 lashes?

Sorry, wrong tour. We’ll just stick to tutting 😂


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			oh I thought it was because something was said ?! 

The ball was on the other side of the hole , Cam was even laughing with Scheffler later , he wasn’t standing on his line etc

Seems like some just making an issue out of nothing 



The ball was on the other side of the flag ? It’s a non issue and yes seen it happen many times and have had people walking in front of line , it’s not an issue
		
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Wow, just goes to show some people in this debate are so blinkered they can’t differentiate between right and wrong.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, just goes to show some people in this debate are so blinkered they can’t differentiate between right and wrong.
		
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So it’s right to take money directly from the Saudis, but walking in front of someone reading a putt is wrong?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, just goes to show some people in this debate are so blinkered they can’t differentiate between right and wrong.
		
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he didn’t walk on his line , he didn’t even walk over it 🤷‍♂️ The line was on the other side of the flag 

If it was between the ball and the flag then maybe but even then it happens as long as someone doesn’t stand on the line


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So it’s right to take money directly from the Saudis, but walking in front of someone reading a putt is wrong?
		
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That’s quite a stretch to link those two things together but it kind of proves my point.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			oh I thought it was because something was said ?!

The ball was on the other side of the hole , Cam was even laughing with Scheffler later , he wasn’t standing on his line etc

*Seems like some just making an issue out of nothing*



The ball was on the other side of the flag ? It’s a non issue and yes seen it happen many times and have had people walking in front of line , it’s not an issue
		
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😂😂😂😂


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			he didn’t walk on his line , he didn’t even walk over it 🤷‍♂️ The line was on the other side of the flag 

If it was between the ball and the flag then maybe but even then it happens as long as someone doesn’t stand on the line
		
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So you’re lining up a putt from behind the flag, your playing partner purposely walks in front of you and you don’t bat an eyelid? 
Christ, I can’t wait for the next forum meet, I’ll do it to everyone and see how I fare 😂


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			That’s quite a stretch to link those two things together but it kind of proves my point.
		
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You generally find, when people know they have lost the debate on the golfing argument, they’ll bring the ‘what about’ the source of the money in to try and divert the discussion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			So you’re lining up a putt from behind the flag, your playing partner purposely walks in front of you and you don’t bat an eyelid?
Christ, I can’t wait for the next forum meet, I’ll do it to everyone and see how I fare 😂
		
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yes I wouldn’t have an issue with it - why would i 🤷‍♂️

I have no doubt that Scheffler is not attempting to do anything deliberately and also that it’s only news and been highlighted because of the current situation with Smith and LIV - it’s something that prob happens all the time

I thought the issue was Scheffler said something which made Smith look up 🤷‍♂️


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You generally find, when people know they have lost the debate on the golfing argument, they’ll bring the ‘what about’ the source of the money in to try and divert the discussion.
		
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Lost the debate 😂

I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if someone walked in front of me when looking at a putt.  Some of you are far too precious if things like this bother you. 

It’s a none event that LiV supporters are making into a massive problem. Classic deflection.


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Lost the debate 😂

I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if someone walked in front of me when looking at a putt.  Some of you are far too precious if things like this bother you. 

It’s a none event that LiV supporters are making into a massive problem. Classic deflection.
		
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Aaah the old claiming deflection routine 😂
I hope I get paired with you and LPL at a forum meet 😂😂😂


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## Swango1980 (Aug 12, 2022)

Such drama about a video clip a few seconds long, with most jumping to conclusions without knowing the context. Was he walking on his line, or not? Was their bad blood between the players throughout the round, or not?

I've never really been a fan of Scheffler, not because of anything he has done wrong, he just seems a bit boring. However, watched his press conference pre-tournament, and he actually has a bit more personality than I probably gave him credit for, and happy to share an opinion. The video clip is probably being taken way out of context. However, I've no issue if some players committed to the PGA are not the best fans with LIV players, or those about to potentially jump ship. Nice when players show a bit of character and how they feel. After all, it is an entertainment business and generates discussion (even when things are taken out of context). I'm sure if a player truly stepped out of line, then there would be consequences. If any player was deliberately walking on another players line, the press would start highlighting it, and if not already done, the PGA would have to act to deal with serious breaches of etiquette.


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

So anyway, when do you think the BBC will start showing LIV? They always seem to show to sort of lower level sporting events like The 100 etc 😬


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## sunshine (Aug 12, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Made what up? It was trending all morning that Cam Smith and Leishman were going to LIV. There is also the chance he will be world number 1 by then.

Edit: oh, you read the “he said” part as Cam Smith saying it rather than people on Twitter saying “he and Leishman have signed”. Wording wasn’t great I agree but to start saying someone has made something up is a bit unreasonable. Looking at your posts though that seems to be your MO.
		
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Well, you wrote Cam Smith said he had signed for Liv. And of course he's said nothing of the sort. But now you're clarifying that you were referring to the gossip trending on twitter and it was poor wording - ok that's great but how was I to know that this was unintententional?

You have to acknowledge that the debate on this thread has consistently been derailed and deflected by disinformation (from a very small number of posters), which has confused some people and caused them to form opinions based on dodgy views and lies.  So I think we all have a duty to try and call out comments that aren't true (on both sides).

It's supposed to be a debate about the pros and cons of Liv, but actually this thread feels like a struggle to wade through spin and rumour.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			So you’re lining up a putt from behind the flag, your playing partner purposely walks in front of you and you don’t bat an eyelid?
Christ, I can’t wait for the next forum meet, I’ll do it to everyone and see how I fare 😂
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			yes I wouldn’t have an issue with it - why would i 🤷‍♂️

♂️
		
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Got to agree with Phil, walking across the actual line of the putt is different, but walking across your eyeline while surveying the putt? I've never seen anyone get precious about that.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

If you think walking in front of someone is bad. 

Scheffler and his caddy both slap Smith after he holed out for eagle


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557735208778350592


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## timd77 (Aug 12, 2022)

When I first saw the clip my first thought was that it was poor form from Sheffler, particularly because it was with Cam Smith and the PGAT/LIV divide, looked very petty and uncalled for, and I’m on the PGAT side of the debate. But now I know CS was reading his putt from the other side of the flag I can’t see the issue. Why on earth would you expect someone to walk around you rather than crossing your eye line for a split second?


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## Leftitshort (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Lost the debate 😂

I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if someone walked in front of me when looking at a putt.  Some of you are far too precious if things like this bother you.

It’s a none event that LiV supporters are making into a massive problem. Classic deflection.
		
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It’s outrageous behaviour & really puts chopping up someone with a bone saw & ruling over a modern day medieval serfdom in true context!!


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## Beezerk (Aug 12, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Got to agree with Phil, walking across the actual line of the putt is different, but walking across your eyeline while surveying the putt? I've never seen anyone get precious about that.
		
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I’m pretty sure going by some threads on here (the 3 minute timer thread) that some would get very precious 😂
Back to the point though, it’s just poor etiquette, you can see by Cam Smiths reaction that he’s been an idiot. It’s something I’d expect a newbie golfer to do, a bit unsure where to stand so they just walk right in the way, for a pro to do it is just poor imo. Just to clarify though I do find it hilarious 😂


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## Dando (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If you think walking in front of someone is bad.

Scheffler and his caddy both slap Smith after he holed out for eagle


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557735208778350592

Click to expand...

i'm sure some bedwetter will twist that into Scheffler and his caddy attacking Cam Smith


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## BiMGuy (Aug 12, 2022)

Savage!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557826392347353090


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If you think walking in front of someone is bad.

Scheffler and his caddy both slap Smith after he holed out for eagle


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557735208778350592

Click to expand...

GBH


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## SteveW86 (Aug 12, 2022)

this would be much more entertaining if Scottie had stopped walking and stood between Cam and his ball.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Savage!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557826392347353090

Click to expand...

Haha. Well, it is out there on a meme now. That will be enough evidence for at least 50% of social media users to believe that is a true quotation, and therefore fact.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			this would be much more entertaining if Scottie had stopped walking and stood between Cam and his ball.
		
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It’ll be entertaining if Scheffler misses the cut and Smith doesn’t.


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## RichA (Aug 12, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			this would be much more entertaining if Scottie had stopped walking and stood between Cam and his ball.
		
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Anyone spending too long lining up a putt in our group receives a friendly knee in the side, sending them sprawling on the green. That would have provided some entertainment.


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## rksquire (Aug 12, 2022)

It was more Smiths reaction that makes it 'funny' than anything Shuffler did - maybe walking in front of people and complaining about not getting the credit he feels he deserves can be his thing.  The good thing if Smith leaves is that he'll stay no. 1.... (although, and I honestly don't know enough about it yet, the Strokes Gained World Rating ranking has McIlroy no.1 and seems from what I understand to be a better reflection of current form for completed 18 hole strokeplay rounds?)

And, is there a distinction now between 'direct' (bad) and 'indirect' (good/ acceptable) Saudi money?


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## woofers (Aug 12, 2022)

rksquire said:



			And, is there a distinction now between 'direct' (bad) and 'indirect' (good/ acceptable) Saudi money?
		
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Possibly, but it’s a complicated matter, as some have pointed out on here there are various scenarios to deal with, principally taking money from the Saudi government vs trading with Saudi companies, right down to individuals buying petrol and government arms sales. 
My view is that it comes down to choice - The individual LIV golfers taking money from the Saudi government PIF know what they are doing and where the money comes from. Other sports have taken the money, these principally being team sports, although I suspect Lewis Hamilton would rather not race in the Kingdom but he is probably contracted to do so (would love it if he said No). 
Buying petrol at Tesco, you have little choice, you don’t know if the product originated from Saudi. 
Government Arms sales - no politics please.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 12, 2022)

rksquire said:



			And, is there a distinction now between 'direct' (bad) and 'indirect' (good/ acceptable) Saudi money?
		
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I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's) 
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there) 
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.


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## RRidges (Aug 12, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Total dosser doing that, show some class pal.
		
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GolfWRX put it down to a 'brainfart' by Scheffler after going +4 over 3 holes. Apparently good relationship both before and after the incident.
https://www.golfwrx.com/691013/the-...dent-in-memphis-isnt-what-people-think-it-is/


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## RRidges (Aug 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Savage!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557826392347353090

Click to expand...

Simply demonstrates the rubbish that can be manufactured on Twitter!
I trust you noticed the spelling of the account and the fact that the text was posted cf voice!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.
		
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The majority of Saudi money comes from oil. Nothing wrong with that. It’s not blood money, or dirty money, it’s oil money. Of course people who are against LIV or the Saudis will try and argue that to make people feel uncomfortable about watching LIV events and following the series. It happens often enough on here. 
The issue in SA is the moral code and legal system, which is outdated, brutal and full of prejudice. It needs to change but it won’t happen overnight, and there will be huge opposition from many of the traditionalists in the country who quite literally put their faith in a shariah law. 

Obviously can’t go too in depth as the topic quickly turns political, but there are many people taking the easy option of discrediting LIV over the Saudi funding, without really studying the background of the country.


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## r0wly86 (Aug 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The majority of Saudi money comes from oil. Nothing wrong with that. It’s not blood money, or dirty money, it’s oil money. Of course people who are against LIV or the Saudis will try and argue that to make people feel uncomfortable about watching LIV events and following the series. It happens often enough on here.
The issue in SA is the moral code and legal system, which is outdated, brutal and full of prejudice. It needs to change but it won’t happen overnight, and there will be huge opposition from many of the traditionalists in the country who quite literally put their faith in a shariah law.

Obviously can’t go too in depth as the topic quickly turns political, but there are many people taking the easy option of discrediting LIV over the Saudi funding, without really studying the background of the country.
		
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No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by  PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world


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## D-S (Aug 12, 2022)

The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.


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## Slab (Aug 12, 2022)

D-S said:



			The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.
		
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And I suppose its also true to say that the irony is that the money the players get from liv comes from (among others) Britain and America


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 12, 2022)

Slab said:



			And I suppose its also true to say that the irony is that the money the players get from liv comes from (among others) Britain and America 


Click to expand...

I’ve just put 30 quids worth in. Hope Cam Smith spends my money wisely. 😂


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## Springveldt (Aug 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’ve just put 30 quids worth in. Hope Cam Smith spends my money wisely. 😂
		
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Were are you going, the corner shop?


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## JamesR (Aug 12, 2022)

Why is Sheffler walking in front of Smith a LIV issue?
Neither is confirmed as having gone over to LIV.

Just looked like one pissed off golfer walking in front of his PP.


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## RRidges (Aug 12, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Why is Sheffler walking in front of Smith a LIV issue?
Neither is confirmed as having gone over to LIV.

Just looked like one pissed off golfer walking in front of his PP.
		
Click to expand...

Twitter folk have vivid imaginations and see conspiracies everywhere! And that doesn't include either the many LIV Bots and the far fewer anti LIV Bot Bots!


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.
		
Click to expand...

Why is that sad? That's exactly the issue, it's LIV that's the issue, not the individuals concerned, so yes if Scheffler was joining he'd be attacked for it


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			The sad thing is that if the current rumour was that Scheffler was going to LIV and Cam was a staunch PGA defender then posters on here would be attacking the golfer they are currently defending and defending the golfer they are currently attacking.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite the philosopher.


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by  PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world
		
Click to expand...

A very good post. Poor old Mel is lost for words


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## BrianM (Aug 13, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			No one is saying that Saudi influence is bad because it comes from oil, that is a wilful misrepresentation of what the issues is.

The issue is the nature of the Saudi government which is totalitarian, has a long history of human rights abuses, and accused of torturing and murdering a US journalist. The money made by oil has partly been put into the PIF, which is one of the largest and most opaque sovereign wealth fund in the world.

The LIV tour, is sportswashing pure and simple, it is not different from the 1936 Belin Olympic the Sochi Winter Games etc

There is a big difference between avoiding firms that have been invested in by  PIF and the LIV.

1. Those companies are publicly traded, no one can stop them from buying shares.
2. It is not feasible for every person to look at every single investor of every single company that they use, or look at where every petrol station gets the crude oil from, to suggest it is on in the same is again wilful misrepresentation.
3. The purpose of the PIF investing in those companies it not control or PR it is a way of diversifying their money from oil in a climate where the world is looking to move away from fossil fuels. The LIV tour purpose is sportswashing, it is form of propaganda trying to improve their image in the world
		
Click to expand...

Point 1 - If you believe that the Saudi Government aren't telling PIF what to invest in then your pretty naïve (It's literally the government, they invest on there behalf), we all have a choice where we invest our money and like you say no one can stop you buying shares in these companies, but you have a choice and if it goes against your moral compass you don't need to.

Point 2 - It is feasible if they want it to be and if they really feel that strongly about it they can find out, everything is out there, do you stop watching ladies golf or F1 because of Saudi Aramco's major investment in these sports, do you stop buying products from China because of there child slavery record, do you stop buying Russian vodka because they invaded Ukraine, do you stop eating meat knowing they are getting slaughtered for our consumption (I could go on), my point is *we always have a choice* no matter what it is, far too easy to dismiss it, it's just whether it goes against your moral compass or can be bothered to find out.

Point 3 - Should they not try and improve their image, have you been out to the Far East to see what it's like, have you worked with Arabs, I've personally worked with them and been going out there for years through work and holidays and I honestly couldn't say a bad word on my own personal experience, it seems like on this thread that every Arab and anyone from Saudi Arabia are the scum of the earth.

Just to be clear I'm not for or against LIV golf, but I'm also not a hypocrite.


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

It's great that we have a choice. Plenty of people in Saudi Arabia do not - you can't protest against the rulers, you can't be gay unless you would like some 'therapy'. 

It's great that you have worked with some nice Saudi blokes, but there are plenty there who live a life of utter misery there because they don't fit the type of person that Saudi Arabia wants. 

I mean when most countries want to increase their tourism income, they'll do it by making adverts showing off the nice things to see and do in their country. They don't generally try to buy out several sports teams and systems, and slowly get all of these guys involved to say nice things about Saudi Arabia. 

In fairness to Saudi Arabia, they're not the first Arab state to do this. They're just doing it on a much bigger scale.


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## BrianM (Aug 13, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			It's great that we have a choice. Plenty of people in Saudi Arabia do not - you can't protest against the rulers, you can't be gay unless you would like some 'therapy'.

It's great that you have worked with some nice Saudi blokes, but there are plenty there who live a life of utter misery there because they don't fit the type of person that Saudi Arabia wants.

I mean when most countries want to increase their tourism income, they'll do it by making adverts showing off the nice things to see and do in their country. They don't generally try to buy out several sports teams and systems, and slowly get all of these guys involved to say nice things about Saudi Arabia.

In fairness to Saudi Arabia, they're not the first Arab state to do this. They're just doing it on a much bigger scale.
		
Click to expand...

So it's only Saudi Arabia that's like this and the rest of the world is living a harmonious life, why wouldn't they try to improve their image, maybe get yourself across there to make a valid opinion on the points you are trying to make.
I'm pretty sure in every country in the world there will be people living a miserable life because they don't conform with the 'normal'


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 13, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			A very good post. Poor old Mel is lost for words 

Click to expand...


I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate  their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we?   I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their _faith _in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of  their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So it's only Saudi Arabia that's like this and the rest of the world is living a harmonious life, why wouldn't they try to improve their image, maybe get yourself across there to make a valid opinion on the points you are trying to make.
I'm pretty sure in every country in the world there will be people living a miserable life because they don't conform with the 'normal'
		
Click to expand...

'There are other bad countries in the world, so that makes it ok.' Come on.

There are miserable people everywhere because they're 'different' to societal norms, but we're now thankfully evolving into a world where people that are gay are not ostracised, or worst. Not in Saudi Arabia though. There we're talking about 'therapy' or chemical castration for those gay guys that want to live their life in the open. 

Here's a nice video about that therapy: 






And as for why we're not talking about the other bad countries that do this sort of stuff - they're not trying to run the pro game of golf, and this is a golf forum...


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate  their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we?   I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their _faith _in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of  their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.
		
Click to expand...

Fair play to you for responding. I do find it odd that you seem to accept that they're sportswashing but you defend it anyway. As for Boris Johnson running the place - he had a go at running his own country and royally screwed that up. 

I think the issue is that they're trying to make our that they're trying to change their ways and if you look into it, it is fairly clear that they aren't. 

As for Saudi Golf/LIV itself - I listened to the NLU podcast the other day and one of the guys said 'the best thing that they could possibly do right now is get rid of Norman.' I couldn't agree more. Imagine that they managed to get someone generally likeable, shrewd, and thoughtful as the front man. Someone like an Arnold Palmer or Seve type character.

Instead of that they have a Trump like character, spouting childish stuff on social media and acting emotionally instead of professionaly. He sort of seems like Vince McMahon (who in fairness, was clearly playing a very hammy caricature of himself) in late nineties WWF. And then having Mickelson as one of the key figures in the whole thing, also spouting nonsense whenever he gets the chance, doesn't really help. 

I actually find Norman a fascinating character and he was clearly an incredibly gifted player. But him running the thing as he is doing right now just seems so divisive. I can't actually believe that the Saudi guys behind all this really want him as the figurehead.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 13, 2022)

I think everyone is getting used to the idea that Cameron Smith is going to/signed for Liv.

The PGA Tour must be praying he doesn't win the Fed Ex and go to world number one.

Liv, s media machine is very slick and they will go to town on
- The World No1
- The Open Champion
- The PGA Fed Ex Champion

Leaving the PGA Tour to play on the Liv Tour. 
World No2 and Open Champ will already be quite the coup for Greg Norman.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.
		
Click to expand...

Once again, I really like the idea that  people should die rather than take Pfizer drugs, or people needing to travel to work to feed their kids is somehow no different to multi millionaires accepting more millions from Saudi.

One is a necessity, the other isn't. And no, I don't happen to do any of the other things on your list.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 13, 2022)

I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.


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## BrianM (Aug 13, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			'There are other bad countries in the world, so that makes it ok.' Come on.

There are miserable people everywhere because they're 'different' to societal norms, but we're now thankfully evolving into a world where people that are gay are not ostracised, or worst. Not in Saudi Arabia though. There we're talking about 'therapy' or chemical castration for those gay guys that want to live their life in the open.

Here's a nice video about that therapy:






And as for why we're not talking about the other bad countries that do this sort of stuff - they're not trying to run the pro game of golf, and this is a golf forum...
		
Click to expand...

No one said it was ok, certainly not me, The Saudi Arabian government have a long way to go to clean up their image, but you are basically tarring a whole nation when you've probably never been there in your life, we can all do the social media thing and find what we want to find, good or bad.


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## IainP (Aug 13, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.
		
Click to expand...

Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.


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## howbow88 (Aug 13, 2022)

BrianM said:



			No one said it was ok, certainly not me, The Saudi Arabian government have a long way to go to clean up their image, but you are basically tarring a whole nation when you've probably never been there in your life, we can all do the social media thing and find what we want to find, good or bad.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not tarring the average people of Saudi Arabia as bad guys at all. But the rulers? Yes, they are bad guys and I don't like that they are looking to become heavily involved in running the pro game of golf.


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I was visiting my step daughter in Lincolnshire, so spent the evening driving, and cooking on the bbq for the rest of the chicos and chicas. Didn't really feel inclined to get into a semi-political discussion about Saudi Arabia, but lets address the points.

Plenty of people are complaing about the source of the money - and they are often referring to it as blood money etc. Why is it? It's not generated by killing people, the people that are working for those oil companies aren't doing so in ball and chain, it's pumped out of the ground by multinational companies that I'd omagine renumerate  their workers pretty well. So - let's stop calling it blood money shall we?   I wont hold my breath.....

I've already said that the Saudis have a moral code and legal system that needs changing, that's unquestionable, but what some people can't seem to grasp, is that just like the gun laws in America (that incidentally lead to waaaaaaay more deaths than the Saudi legal system does), those laws cannot be changed overnight. There's a strong inward pressure from the established legal entities, and some of the people in the country to maintain Shariah Law - I know where I live, where there is a large muslim community - there are reports of shariah law being used within some communities - it is part of the religion of Islam, and as I said in my earlier post, people literally put their _faith _in Shariah Law. Muslims very much have their faith as centric in their lives, they are living their lives by the way The Prophet Mohammed deemed, I've known loads of muslims who would regularly pray at work, and attending Friday prayer is still very much an important part of their week. I've also seen burials at cemeteries here in West Yorkshire where all the women have to stand outside the cemetery, while the men are allowed in - now to you and me, that might be seen as backward, and a blatant and obvious demonstration of sexual discrimination, but to those muslims, they are simply follwoing what their religion tells them to do.

Of course the Saudi Government is totalitarian, it's the way the country has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Answer me this, do you think the country would be stable and relatively peaceful if Boris Johnson et al were in charge, if they were succumbing to changing laws and legal practices at the whim of a very small minority (which it would be in SA), or do you think their would be internal revolt and an overthrowing of the government by the many terrorist organisations, or even neighbouring countries that border SA? We all know how volatile the middle east is - we in the UK have witnessed a UK government go into several of those countries, with force, and leave behind a complete mess - at significant loss of life to British and U.S Citizens as well..
I'm not defending what the Saudis do, or how they do it, but the truth is it keeps their country relatively safe for the majority.

So are the Saudi's sportswashing? Well I think they are to a degree, but not necessarily to cover up their treatment of people that they have deemed to have broken the laws of  their country - because let's face it, that definitely is NOT happening at the moment. The Saudis need to secure their financial future, they are wanting to turn their country into a tourist destination (which incidentally is how they raised quite a lot of their revenue pre-oil), in that regard they need the world to see them as hospitable people - which I'm sure the vast majority are. 12 months ago, I wouldn't have been considering Saudi as a potential destination for a golf holiday - now, well yes, the thought has crossed my mind... and if I was in the market for a trip to that part of the world, then I'd certainly be intrigued as to what the country could offer me in comparison to say Dubai etc.

I'm watching with interest not only how LIV affects golf, but how Saudi Arabia as a country develops as they attempt to shift from oil producer and integrate into global business and tourism.

Khashoggi - there's no defending it based in what we know about his death, and it leaves a very noticeable black cloud over the reign of MBS.

*Note to admins - I appreciate this is a politically heavy post, and if you deem in to be overstepping the boundary of political discussion, please delete.
		
Click to expand...

A fine load of waffle that only brushes on the fundamental issue - blatant sportswashing!
The Khashoggi incident you mention simply demonstrates what the regime is really like, why they are unlikely to change in the near future and why they need to sportswash!


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## BrianM (Aug 13, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			I'm not tarring the average people of Saudi Arabia as bad guys at all. But the rulers? Yes, they are bad guys and I don't like that they are looking to become heavily involved in running the pro game of golf.
		
Click to expand...

That's fair enough, one thing from my own experience is they are very heavy into their religion (Not for getting onto in here) and I believe that there religion forbids gay relationships, it's something that definitely needs addressed but the 'normal' people will probably be very much against it as well.


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I understand all the discussion about the Saudis and their record on human rights. While that's an issue it's not my main complaint. For me fifty four hole events with shotgun starts where there is no cut and everybody gets paid (in advance) are exhibitions. Events like these have been around for ages. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagan even Nicklaus, Palmer and Tiger played exhibitions. Tiger has referred to them as "hit and giggle" golf and he's right. They're fine, but I rarely watch them. I prefer seeing the best players battling each other for trophies and titles. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster while most true golf fans will never forget who won at St. Andrews last month. Golf like tennis is an individual sport where one has to win or at least play very well to get paid. Also, to become famous as well as wealthy one has to win majors. I hope that doesn't change anytime soon.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! Watching the 2nd round of FedEx St Jude last night demonstrated the difference between the LIV circus and PGA Tour style tournaments!


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.
		
Click to expand...

You're right. However, I do usually watch The John Deere because sometimes the winner is not already qualified and a win gets the player in The Open. Also, The Players has gained status where now it appears winning two Players equals one major to qualify for the Golf Hall of Fame. As for the FedEx Cup it lost some significance for me when they started that deal where the point leader tees off in Atlanta already ten under par. Of course, I'll watch because I once played East Lake and really like that course. 
I guess we'll see where all this goes. In the meantime I hate that Cam Smith is apparently going to LIV. So far, he's the only player I'll really miss.


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Some fair points. We don't know the future but right now perhaps your question could have been "but I believe nobody is going to remember who won two weeks ago at Bedminster verses who won the John Deere Classic".
Like you I hope the traditional majors remain relevant. There is an argument that the PGAT with the rewards of the Players & the Fed Ex have been chipping away at them for a while.
		
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I'll remember the winners of both the 1st LIV event - because it was the 1st - and of Bedminster - because it was Stenson and his 1st event. I can't remember who won Pumpkin Ridge though, nor who won The John Deere as, for me, it was 'just another PGA Tour event'.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 13, 2022)

A large proportion of the PGA events are forgettable affairs but their marquee events are awesome because the courses are great and the history but it's mainly because of the quality of field the likes of the AT&T, Memorial, Arnold Palmer Invitational, The Players etc attract. 

That's why holding onto the best players is so important to the PGA Tour. 

If there ever became a time that there is a much larger proportion of the worlds best Golfers on another tour those events then lose some/a lot of their sheen and sponsorship revenue drops. 

In the same way that Liv is currently criticised for having the weaker field resulting in a weaker event, the same would apply the other way round if that ever happened and Liv's events like for example played at Turnberry with a stellar field of the worlds best players well then their event becomes much more high profile. 

I've said this so many times, Greg Norman and Jay Monaghon will not decide the destiny of these tours, the players will by which tour has the higher percentage of the best players on show.. 

It looks like the Liv Tour is going to announce a stronger field for 2023 but the PGA will still hold the balance strongly in their favour but they have to stop this trickle of players leaving otherwise the trickle becomes a flow which then becomes a rapid..


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## IainP (Aug 13, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Indeed! Watching the 2nd round of FedEx St Jude last night demonstrated the difference between the LIV circus and PGA Tour style tournaments!
		
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Glad you enjoyed it, I confess that I struggled with it, maybe I switched on at the wrong time. Hopefully the weekend will be better for me.
A fair few "big names" did miss the cut though - perhaps they  "phoned it in" knowing they have a guaranteed big payday next week 😉😉😁


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## IainP (Aug 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			A large proportion of the PGA events are forgettable affairs but their marquee events are awesome because the courses are great and the history but it's mainly because of the quality of field the likes of the AT&T, Memorial, Arnold Palmer Invitational, The Players etc attract.

That's why holding onto the best players is so important to the PGA Tour.

If there ever became a time that there is a much larger proportion of the worlds best Golfers on another tour those events then lose some/a lot of their sheen and sponsorship revenue drops.

In the same way that Liv is currently criticised for having the weaker field resulting in a weaker event, the same would apply the other way round if that ever happened and Liv's events like for example played at Turnberry with a stellar field of the worlds best players well then their event becomes much more high profile.

I've said this so many times, Greg Norman and Jay Monaghon will not decide the destiny of these tours, the players will by which tour has the higher percentage of the best players on show..

It looks like the Liv Tour is going to announce a stronger field for 2023 but the PGA will still hold the balance strongly in their favour but they have to stop this trickle of players leaving otherwise the trickle becomes a flow which then becomes a rapid..
		
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Unless/until the messaging changes about 48 players then I suspect the best they may hope for is close to half of the 'top 100'. Should that happen whether the remaining is enough to give the tv companies & sponsors (PGAT) remains to be seen. I believe since Centurion each PGAT event has been a little down on strength of field rating and points for the winner compared to previous years, but not significantly so.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Unless/until the messaging changes about 48 players then I suspect the best they may hope for is close to half of the 'top 100'. Should that happen whether the remaining is enough to give the tv companies & sponsors (PGAT) remains to be seen. I believe since Centurion each PGAT event has been a little down on strength of field rating and points for the winner compared to previous years, but not significantly so.
		
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The trouble for the PGA Tour is that with every major signing the Liv Tour is perceived to be getting slightly stronger and the PGA Tour is perceived to be getting slightly weaker.

It's a narrative that is hard to combat if players continue to switch across.


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## Backsticks (Aug 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The trouble for the PGA Tour is that with every major signing the Liv Tour is perceived to be getting slightly stronger and the PGA Tour is perceived to be getting slightly weaker.

It's a narrative that is hard to combat if players continue to switch across.
		
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And 'narrative' suggests its only spin. But it is a reality. Smith is undoubtedly a big loss. At some point there will be two weak tours with a portion of the worlds best golfers. And one of them will also have a champions or past real competitiveness cohort for those who like a bit of nostalgia mixed in. So everyone is a loser. Its usually the case in civil wars.

I am fully OK with sportswashing, and the barbaric regime behind its funding, if it added something to the entertainment value of elite pro golf. But a half tour, and an exhibition tour, is not better in any way whatsoever, than what the PGAT presents today. Saudi is bad bad bad, for golf as entertainment.


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## JamesR (Aug 13, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558513610653155328🤣 🤣


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Glad you enjoyed it, I confess that I struggled with it, maybe I switched on at the wrong time. Hopefully the weekend will be better for me.
A fair few "big names" did miss the cut though - perhaps they  "phoned it in" knowing they have a guaranteed big payday next week 😉😉😁
		
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Timing was everything. Was interesting to watch Rory's efforts, in vain, and those of some further down the pecking order. Certainly more interesting than watching the 'who care's I'm guaranteed loads anyway' circus from a couple of weeks ago!


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## sunshine (Aug 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.
		
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And the plural of company is “companys” or “company’s” or something else?

This paragraph reads like it was written by someone in a data centre in a third world country. The digital equivalent of a sweat shop.


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think there has to be because if you are going to put a moral line in the sand and have nothing to do with Saudi money at all then don't.

- Buy your fuel from shell, BP or Total (probably supply all petroleum company's)
- Book with booking.com
- Don't order an Uber
- Don't buy a Tesla
- Don't buy or play a Nintendo console
- Use facebook or instagram
- Stay in marriot hotels
- Buy coffee from starbucks
- Support Newcastle UTD (Or watch your team play there)
- Fly on Boeing planes
- Watch any Disney production
- Use any drugs made by Pfizer

Because Saudi Arabia has invested 5+ billion in these companys since 2021and much more in many other company's totalling 7.7 billion in total.
		
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Just because SA invests money in certain companies doesn't make them bad companies - though total ownership, like Newcastle Untd is a different story, and more like the sportswashing of LIV!


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## RRidges (Aug 13, 2022)

sunshine said:



			And the plural of company is “companys” or “company’s” or something else?

This paragraph reads like it was written by someone in a data centre in a third world country. The digital equivalent of a sweat shop.
		
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FWIW, your second 'sentence' isn't a proper one either!


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 13, 2022)

I have two questions: One: I just saw a Zrixon commercial with Brooks Koepka. Do they have to keep him until his contract expires? Since LIV is not on TV (yet) Zrixon isn't getting the exposure they thought they would when they signed him. Two: Does LIV contribute to the local charities in their host cities like the PGA Tour does?


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## IainP (Aug 13, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I have two questions: One: I just saw a Zrixon commercial with Brooks Koepka. Do they have to keep him until his contract expires? Since LIV is not on TV (yet) Zrixon isn't getting the exposure they thought they would when they signed him. Two: Does LIV contribute to the local charities in their host cities like the PGA Tour does?
		
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To your question,  this was reported..
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/liv-golf-to-donate-1m-to-charities
Think similar reports in the US. Hopefully someone will follow up to check it's more than just words.

No idea how reputable this is...but interesting views.
https://www.realclearmarkets.com/ar...ng_that_the_pga_tour_is_a_charity_808930.html

Re sponsorships, I suspect Srixon will be monitoring. Apparently it is on TV in some countries already. It is clearly a much talked about topic, and these days the internet competes with traditional TV also.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 14, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			I have two questions: One: I just saw a Zrixon commercial with Brooks Koepka. Do they have to keep him until his contract expires? Since LIV is not on TV (yet) Zrixon isn't getting the exposure they thought they would when they signed him. Two: Does LIV contribute to the local charities in their host cities like the PGA Tour does?
		
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On the 2nd question - it's partly been answered already by IainP, but LIV have a 100 million dollar fund that they will donate to charities, and from the donations made already it looks like part of this will be supporting charities in the areas where the events have been held.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 14, 2022)




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## TheBigDraw (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Smith is undoubtedly a big loss. At some point there will be two weak tours with a portion of the worlds best golfers.
		
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I think your RIGHT, it seems to be going that way and if that did come to pass its SO important the majors find a way for Liv Golfers to qualify for their events otherwise we have a terrible situation where the worlds best golfers NEVER play against each other and everything is diluted. 

If this situation where the worlds best players are split across 2 tours does happen but they all came together at the majors then these huge amazing tournaments become even more significant..


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think your RIGHT, it seems to be going that way and if that did come to pass its SO important the majors find a way for Liv Golfers to qualify for their events otherwise we have a terrible situation where the worlds best golfers NEVER play against each other and everything is diluted.

If this situation where the worlds best players are split across 2 tours does happen but they all came together at the majors then these huge amazing tournaments become even more amazing..
		
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There is no question of any golfer, who is at the level to play in a major, not playing in that major.  Any concerns on that front are unfounded. The business of the four majors depends on having the best of world golf. So there is no way they will not allow entry to any golfer. They have nothing to gain by shooting themselves in the foot due to a commercial spat between two rival tours.


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## IainP (Aug 14, 2022)

☝ The Players Tournament however....
The special position negotiated into the OWGR may come under scrutiny.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			There is no question of any golfer, who is at the level to play in a major, not playing in that major.  Any concerns on that front are unfounded. The business of the four majors depends on having the best of world golf. So there is no way they will not allow entry to any golfer. They have nothing to gain by shooting themselves in the foot due to a commercial spat between two rival tours.
		
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Yes, this worries me as well. I believe as it stands now  a player has to be a member of the PGA to compete in their championship. While the PGA Tour is a separate organization, all their members are also considered members of the PGA. That being the case, LIV members won't be able to play next May. That would be terrible even if the other three majors decide to allow qualified LIV players to compete.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 14, 2022)

Patrick Reed playing in Singapore this week with a few other low ranking LIV players. Finished 31st (total purse of $1.5m) and picked up 0.32 of a ranking point. That's apparently half as many as those at the Fed Ex who finished last (whilst making the cut) have received.

https://www.flashscore.com/golf/asian-tour/international-series-singapore/

The problem for LIV players, as can be seen here, is ranking points. Majors won't have to ban anyone because unless they have exceptions they're simply going to slide down the rankings and rule themselves out.

Edit: I see Richard Bland played in the DP Tour event this week.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 14, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			I'm not tarring the average people of Saudi Arabia as bad guys at all. But the rulers? Yes, they are bad guys and I don't like that they are looking to become heavily involved in running the pro game of golf.
		
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The PGA has many faults but it's wild to see so many golf fans rushing to give them a kicking by putting the future of the game they love in the hands of people with zero historical interest in it. Just weird especially as LIV can't even decide what their own format will look like next year.


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			The PGA has many faults but it's wild to see so many golf fans rushing to give them a kicking by putting the future of the game they love in the hands of people with zero historical interest in it.
		
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Well thats getting a bit over dramatic. 'The future of the game' is entirely unaffected by this spat. Who pays, and how much, the top 50 golfers in the world has precisely zero influence on the wider game, or 99.999999% of the worlds golfers.


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Patrick Reed playing in Singapore this week with a few other low ranking LIV players. Finished 31st (total purse of $1.5m) and picked up 0.32 of a ranking point. That's apparently half as many as those at the Fed Ex who finished last (whilst making the cut) have received.

https://www.flashscore.com/golf/asian-tour/international-series-singapore/

The problem for LIV players, as can be seen here, is ranking points. Majors won't have to ban anyone because unless they have exceptions they're simply going to slide down the rankings and rule themselves out.

Edit: I see Richard Bland played in the DP Tour event this week.
		
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Majors dont want to ban anyone. They want to include. And will modify their qualification criteria to ensure no top golfer misses out onplaying in them


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Majors dont want to ban anyone. They want to include. And will modify their qualification criteria to ensure no top golfer misses out onplaying in them
		
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So they're going to skew the qualifying criteria to ensure 'top golfers' who have slipped down the rankings and aren't exempt get a free ride? What about all those they've leapfrogged over? I'd be amazed if they did that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Majors dont want to ban anyone. They want to include. And will modify their qualification criteria to ensure no top golfer misses out onplaying in them
		
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The majors won’t change anything 

The qualifying will be the same as it is every year 

The Masters may actually change to ensure that LIV members can’t play after the “11” brought them into the court case 

The Open will have the same qualifying including the qualifying series of which LIV players can play in 

USPGA will stay the same 


US Open has multiple ways for a LIV player to qualify 

Next year LIV players will play in the Majors , they won’t be banned but The Masters may do something 

But they imo won’t be adding LIV events or money lists to the list of ways of qualifying


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Well thats getting a bit over dramatic. 'The future of the game' is entirely unaffected by this spat. Who pays, and how much, the top 50 golfers in the world has precisely zero influence on the wider game, or 99.999999% of the worlds golfers.
		
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Future of the game = Professional game. 

Norman won't stop if he thinks he can reduce the PGA Tour to Korn Ferry status. Those wanting LIV to succeed should be careful what they wish for.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 14, 2022)

Reed with a hole in one


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			So they're going to skew the qualifying criteria to ensure 'top golfers' who have slipped down the rankings and aren't exempt get a free ride? What about all those they've leapfrogged over? I'd be amazed if they did that.
		
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Not skew. Correctly an anomoly in the current system if it no longer identifies the worlds best golfers. Its not a free ride, anymore than the current system is. The arent leapfrogging anyone, simply correctly being recognised as worthy of automatic qualification.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not skew. Correctly an anomoly in the current system if it no longer identifies the worlds best golfers. Its not a free ride, anymore than the current system is. The arent leapfrogging anyone, simply correctly being recognised as worthy of automatic qualification.
		
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In what way will the majors change their qualifying to allow players who are playing restricted comps to enter ?

There are multiple ways already LIV players can play in the majors - why would there be any need for the majors to change


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In what way will the majors change their qualifying to allow players who are playing restricted comps to enter ?

There are multiple ways already LIV players can play in the majors - why would there be any need for the majors to change
		
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Do you want the best players to contest the majors or just some of the best players?

If the majors are to remain the ultimate trophies then all of the top players need to be there. If not, be ready for the asterisk.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 14, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Patrick Reed playing in Singapore this week with a few other low ranking LIV players. Finished 31st (total purse of $1.5m) and picked up 0.32 of a ranking point. That's apparently half as many as those at the Fed Ex who finished last (whilst making the cut) have received.

https://www.flashscore.com/golf/asian-tour/international-series-singapore/

The problem for LIV players, as can be seen here, is ranking points. Majors won't have to ban anyone because unless they have exceptions they're simply going to slide down the rankings and rule themselves out.

Edit: I see Richard Bland played in the DP Tour event this week.
		
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Got to feel sorry for Ewan Ferguson picking up a measly 8 points for winning on ET....


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you want the best players to contest the majors or just some of the best players?

If the majors are to remain the ultimate trophies then all of the top players need to be there. If not, be ready for the asterisk.
		
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Was there any asterisks when players don’t make it for various reasons in the past ? Was there an asterisk next to Scheffler this year because Mickleson was asked not to be there 

Each major has a qualifying stage that allows anyone to enter

The players won’t be banned - they just need to qualify the same as all the others 

But they won’t change to all entrance from LIV events or money list.


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

The majors reputation and existence is based on having the best. They will have the best.


Liverpoolphil said:



			Was there any asterisks when players don’t make it for various reasons in the past ? Was there an asterisk next to Scheffler this year because Mickleson was asked not to be there

Each major has a qualifying stage that allows anyone to enter

The players won’t be banned - they just need to qualify the same as all the others

But they won’t change to all entrance from LIV events or money list.
		
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It is only fair, and the same as all the others if Saudi tour players, or a portion of them, have the same express entry to the majors that players from the other tours do.

No asterisk if one player is missing. But certainly asterisk if a portion of the worlds best 100 golfers dont have the same access, or dont play in them due to unequal access. Which tour they choose to play does not affect their case to be given automatic entry.
Anyway, this is a non issue. The majors will alter their eligibility criteria to give them access, if many more defect to the Saudi regime.
They simply cant not.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 14, 2022)

As I've said so many times it's the players that will determine how this all plays out.

If... I'm only saying if it happens OK.. a large enough proportion of the worlds best players are on another tour, the majors will have to rethink their critrleria..

They just won't let a situation happen where their is a chunk of the worlds best players missing, players the sponsors want to see, players the spectators want to see, players the TV company's want to see are not there.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			As I've said so many times it's the players that will determine how this all plays out.

If... I'm only saying if it happens OK.. a large enough proportion of the worlds best players are on another tour, the majors will have to rethink their critrleria..

They just won't let a situation happen where their is a chunk of the worlds best players missing, players the sponsors want to see, players the spectators want to see, players the TV company's want to see are not there.
		
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Spot on.
The majors need the best players there.
Fact 🤷‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The majors reputation and existence is based on having the best. They will have the best.

It is only fair, and the same as all the others if Saudi tour players, or a portion of them, have the same express entry to the majors that players from the other tours do.

No asterisk if one player is missing. But certainly asterisk if a portion of the worlds best 100 golfers dont have the same access, or dont play in them due to unequal access. Which tour they choose to play does not affect their case to be given automatic entry.
Anyway, this is a non issue. The majors will alter their eligibility criteria to give them access, if many more defect to the Saudi regime.
They simply cant not.
		
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“Express entry” ?

Not sure what that is but I’m not aware of any express entry

How can you Judge them to be part of the best 100 golfers when they are not going ip against all those others across the full 72 holes week in week out

The majors won’t create entrance from the LIV tour and certainly not any “express entry”

All those top LIV players already have qualified for each major because of their performances whilst on the others tours and in majors  DJ , Koepka , BDC , Smith when he leaves will be playing in the majors

Have a look at the actually qualifying of each major and you will see that there are more than enough ways for the players to qualify

But I have no doubt that the majors won’t change - unless it’s going the other way to ban them



TheBigDraw said:



			As I've said so many times it's the players that will determine how this all plays out.

If... I'm only saying if it happens OK.. a large enough proportion of the worlds best players are on another tour, the majors will have to rethink their critrleria..

They just won't let a situation happen where their is a chunk of the worlds best players missing, players the sponsors want to see, players the spectators want to see, players the TV company's want to see are not there.
		
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The majors will be more than ok with players missing out - the majors are bigger than those and always will be , R&A were pretty clear about their thoughts , The Masters have been named in the court case and will know they run their ship how they want to run it 

When it comes to the majors - they hold their cards not the players. And it’s also worth noting that none of the big players on LIV will be missing any majors for 5 years at least


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

That makes no sense Phil. The majors are not part of this fight. They need the best golfers, and to be seen to have the best golfers. Anything less and their heritage and prestige and raison detre is gone.
Following your logic, if the top 48 from the world rankings of today jumped Saudi, are you saying the majors would plough on regardless with their current criteria, and potentially have 30+ of the worlds best golfers not playing in majors next year ?
They would NOT let that happen. They would change the criteria in the morning.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 14, 2022)

I think the majors will keep on with the current qualification criteria for the next year at least, apart from The Masters, who won’t take kindly to being dragged into the court case.

What I think will happen in practice is that LIV players will struggle to get enough points, new up & coming players, of which there are many thanks to the US college system, will find themselves filling the places of the departed LIV players on USPGA tournaments and they will take those points and qualify.

Don’t be surprised if the only LIV players you see in some of next years majors are the ones with exemptions .


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That makes no sense Phil. The majors are not part of this fight. They need the best golfers, and to be seen to have the best golfers. Anything less and their heritage and prestige and raison detre is gone.
Following your logic, if the top 48 from the world rankings of today jumped Saudi, are you saying the majors would plough on regardless with their current criteria, and potentially have 30+ of the worlds best golfers not playing in majors next year ?
They would NOT let that happen. They would change the criteria in the morning.
		
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The Majors are part of the “fight” when The Masters were brought into the court case , they asked Micklson to not turn up , the R&A asked Greg Norman to not turn up - they are involved. 

They aren’t going to change their criteria - The players can still qualify whatever Tour they are on - they aren’t banned from being at the Majors and many have exemptions - they have no need to change


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## Imurg (Aug 14, 2022)

Waiting for the Cam Smith penalty backlash to begin😬


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Waiting for the Cam Smith penalty backlash to begin😬
		
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Already has - seems it’s the first time that a player has ever been penalised the next day for a breach and it’s all because of LIV of course


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## Imurg (Aug 14, 2022)

I would laugh so hard I'd probably pull something if he doesn't go......


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 14, 2022)




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## BiMGuy (Aug 14, 2022)

Are we putting an * next the the name of every player who won a major when Tiger was out injured?


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## JamesR (Aug 14, 2022)

What amazes me is the correlation between rules issues & people wanting to go to LIV. 
As didn’t Garcia talk of how glad he was to leave the PGA tour after a rules argument, and of course Reed and DeChambeau have always had their issues with the rules &/or rules officials.
Now, after Smith has a rules issue people think it guarantees his move to LIV.
Don’t the normal rules apply on LiV tour?


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Are we putting an * next the the name of every player who won a major when Tiger was out injured?
		
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No, and this is a false analogy. Tiger was not excluded by the qualification criteria for those tournaments.


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## IainP (Aug 14, 2022)

My thoughts on the "majors".
The 2 opens will strive to be open as that is their USP. The Asian tour may be key to how many qualify.
In a way the Masters may be viewed as the original big money invitational, over the years they have been encouraged to become more transparent and have clearer qualification rules  - anybodies guess how they react!
As @Hoganman1 mentioned,  whilst the PGAT doesn't run the US PGA the ties are there, here's an extract from their qualifications ---
Winners of the last three Players Championships
The 70 leaders in official money standings on the PGA Tour (starting one week before the previous year’s PGA Championship and ending two weeks before the current year’s PGA Championship).
Members of the most recent U.S. and European Ryder Cup Teams, provided they are in the top 100 of the Official World Golf Ranking as of one week before the start of the tournament.
Any tournament winner co-sponsored or approved by the PGA Tour since the previous PGA Championship.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 14, 2022)

Why would they give world ranking points to exhibition events?


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Why would they give world ranking points to exhibition events?
		
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They probably wont. But so what. Like being a Ryder cup player, or a major winner in the last 5 years, world ranking points are only one tool used by the majors to ensure all the best get in. They will add another channel if they have to.


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## RRidges (Aug 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They probably wont. But so what. Like being a Ryder cup player, or a major winner in the last 5 years, world ranking points are only one tool used by the majors to ensure all the best get in. They will add another channel if they have to.
		
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I don't believe they will! LIV players have access to Asian Tour, so that's their way in. Though there are issues with that approach too, as fields don't justify sufficient points and if multiple LIV players play, then points are likely to be reduced for several of them, even if (or because) all end up high on the leaderboard.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not skew. Correctly an anomoly in the current system if it no longer identifies the worlds best golfers. Its not a free ride, anymore than the current system is. The arent leapfrogging anyone, simply correctly being recognised as worthy of automatic qualification.
		
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There's a bunch of qualification criteria they apparently don't meet, this being one of them. But even if they were to amend it tomorrow there's no way they're going to get, or should get the same number of points as their field is generally going to be a) worse overall and b) they're playing 54 holes with no cut. 

Yet you want them in the majors on the grounds of "equality"?


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 15, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Got to feel sorry for Ewan Ferguson picking up a measly 8 points for winning on ET....
		
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The new system is fair from a purely numbers point of view, however DP Tour golfers are now going to be looking at those  top 10 places to get on the PGA Tour (or majorsas I suspect anything else is going to be very limiting.


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## Backsticks (Aug 15, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			There's a bunch of qualification criteria they apparently don't meet, this being one of them. But even if they were to amend it tomorrow there's no way they're going to get, or should get the same number of points as their field is generally going to be a) worse overall and b) they're playing 54 holes with no cut.

Yet you want them in the majors on the grounds of "equality"?
		
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Yes. If the top 48 owgr of today jumped, and only played LIV, then the majors have to ensure they qualify. The majors have no motivation to 'punish' them like the pgat ot DPWT who are commercial rivals to the Saudis. Having a theoretical access to the majors through Asia tour or qualifying rounds will not ensure they are in the starting field. So they will modify the criteria to ensure that they are. Maybe a top 20 on the LiV not already qualified by other means for example. Similar to Ryder cup team qualification.


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## IainP (Aug 15, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			There's a bunch of qualification criteria *they apparently don't meet, this being one of them*. But even if they were to amend it tomorrow there's no way they're going to get, *or should get the same number of points* as their field is generally going to be a) worse overall and b) they're playing 54 holes with no cut.

Yet you want them in the majors on the grounds of "equality"?
		
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Was under the impression the only criteria not met was the "in existence for a year".
Don't think anyone is suggesting "the same number if points", they could just apply existing logic around cut/no cut, number of holes, field size & strength.

Personally I think the OWGR would come out if this better if points are awarded, even if just a few. If they manufacture a way to block then it risks a rival ranking system coming into being and more division.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Was under the impression the only criteria not met was the "in existence for a year".
Don't think anyone is suggesting "the same number if points", they could just apply existing logic around cut/no cut, number of holes, field size & strength.

Personally I think the OWGR would come out if this better if points are awarded, even if just a few. If they manufacture a way to block then it risks a rival ranking system coming into being and more division.
		
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I think one of the key areas that’s affecting Ranking points is the qualifying- LIV is essentially invite only , players can’t go through any qualifying for the Tour or Monday qualifying for the comp so it’s essentially at the moment a closed competition- that’s one of the key things that stops it getting Ranking points.


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## IainP (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think one of the key areas that’s affecting Ranking points is the qualifying- LIV is essentially invite only , players can’t go through any qualifying for the Tour or Monday qualifying for the comp so it’s essentially at the moment a closed competition- that’s one of the key things that stops it getting Ranking points.
		
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I thought they had attempted to mitigate that -
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-relegation-promotion-qualifying-tournament
Not saying it would be enough, but as OWGR don't comment it is impossible to know!


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			That's fair enough, one thing from my own experience is they are very heavy into their religion (Not for getting onto in here) and I believe that there religion forbids gay relationships, it's something that definitely needs addressed but the 'normal' people will probably be very much against it as well.
		
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This is big for me and one of the main reasons I detest religious beliefs. Lots of disgusting stuff goes on globally hiding behind that very excuse.  



Imurg said:



			Waiting for the Cam Smith penalty backlash to begin😬
		
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The situation stank!


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## rksquire (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think one of the key areas that’s affecting Ranking points is the qualifying- LIV is essentially invite only , players can’t go through any qualifying for the Tour or Monday qualifying for the comp so it’s essentially at the moment a closed competition- that’s one of the key things that stops it getting Ranking points.
		
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Starting to get to grips with the new system and don't think that's necessarily correct - (other 'precedents' exist but that aside) - the new system is based on a round by round basis and the fact is that all players have a current ranking, albeit dropping, but the system has the ability to accommodate points being awarded.

As said, Reed picked up 0.32 points, which is 0.32 points more than McIlroy & Shuffler - two of the best players in the world seemingly not wanting to play 72 holes, wonder if there's an alternative available to them!?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Starting to get to grips with the new system and don't think that's necessarily correct - (other 'precedents' exist but that aside) - the new system is based on a round by round basis and the fact is that all players have a current ranking, albeit dropping, but the system has the ability to accommodate points being awarded.

As said, Reed picked up 0.32 points, which is 0.32 points more than McIlroy & Shuffler - two of the best players in the world seemingly not wanting to play 72 holes, wonder if there's an alternative available to them!?
		
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sorry what I was meaning is the inclusion of LIV events into the ranking system in the first place 

The 54 holes isn’t an issue same with the size of the field ( even though it would be reduce points ) - but the invite only is an issue because right now a player can’t qualify to play


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## Beezerk (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry what I was meaning is the inclusion of LIV events into the ranking system in the first place

The 54 holes isn’t an issue same with the size of the field ( even though it would be reduce points ) - but the invite only is an issue because right now a player can’t qualify to play
		
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Going by this thread,  if you're a money grabbing, past it, has been then you automatically qualify 😅


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			This is big for me and one of the main reasons I detest religious beliefs. Lots of disgusting stuff goes on globally hiding behind that very excuse. 



The situation stank!
		
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The situation was explained 






Beezerk said:



			Going by this thread,  if you're a money grabbing, past it, has been then you automatically qualify 😅
		
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I wonder if there is a money grabbing ranking system 🤔😁


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

I’m sorry Phil but that was an obvious rule breach and with the amount of commentary and TV viewers (rule geeks) calling in, that should have been addressed post round on Saturday and not pre round Sunday.

If they are going to take that route at what point do you stop reviewing past rounds for rule breeches?


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## r0wly86 (Aug 15, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Point 1 - If you believe that the Saudi Government aren't telling PIF what to invest in then your pretty naïve (It's literally the government, they invest on there behalf), we all have a choice where we invest our money and like you say no one can stop you buying shares in these companies, but you have a choice and if it goes against your moral compass you don't need to.

Point 2 - It is feasible if they want it to be and if they really feel that strongly about it they can find out, everything is out there, do you stop watching ladies golf or F1 because of Saudi Aramco's major investment in these sports, do you stop buying products from China because of there child slavery record, do you stop buying Russian vodka because they invaded Ukraine, do you stop eating meat knowing they are getting slaughtered for our consumption (I could go on), my point is *we always have a choice* no matter what it is, far too easy to dismiss it, it's just whether it goes against your moral compass or can be bothered to find out.

Point 3 - Should they not try and improve their image, have you been out to the Far East to see what it's like, have you worked with Arabs, I've personally worked with them and been going out there for years through work and holidays and I honestly couldn't say a bad word on my own personal experience, it seems like on this thread that every Arab and anyone from Saudi Arabia are the scum of the earth.

Just to be clear I'm not for or against LIV golf, but I'm also not a hypocrite.
		
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Point 1 - I didn't say anything of the sort. Simply that PIF buying shared in companies as a means of diversifying their portfolio is a completely different thing from buying LIV with the sole purpose propaganda. What I was saying is that the companies like Uber are publicly traded so they cannot stop the PIF from buying shares

Point 2 - it is not feasible for people to check every share owner of every country. Yes some people may boycott certain countries from what they purchase i.e. buying non Chinese made products (albeit there is a big difference from companies being punished because of their governments actions and not taking liking where a government is taking direct action as what is happening here), I know for a fact that Russian vodka sales have dropped massively since the Ukraine invasion. But can you imagine before making any purchase having to trawl through and looking at all the individual shareholders. Not to say you cannot, but again it is a completely different thing from a government committing overt propaganda.

Point 3 - "improve their image" I am all for that if that means changing their ways, stopping human rights abuses and executing anti-monarchists. Not trying to gloss over those things with overt propaganda. This has nothing to do with individual Arabs, but the government. I know a lot of Russians who are lovely people, this doesn't mean you should give Putin free reign to do what he wants.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			sorry what I was meaning is the inclusion of LIV events into the ranking system in the first place

The 54 holes isn’t an issue same with the size of the field ( even though it would be reduce points ) - but the invite only is an issue because right now a player can’t qualify to play
		
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But they can qualify to play next year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I’m sorry Phil but that was an obvious rule breach and with the amount of commentary and TV viewers (rule geeks) calling in, that should have been addressed post round on Saturday and not pre round Sunday.

If they are going to take that route at what point do you stop reviewing past rounds for rule breeches?
		
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No one called in - that can’t happen anymore 

And coverage wasn’t conclusive hence why they asked the player himself then next day and he clarified- as long as it’s sorted before the next round starts that’s all that should matter. And it’s not a new thing been happening for years


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But they can qualify to play next year.
		
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So when that starts and it’s a true qualifying then they will look at it. No one can qualify for next year - they have “picked” or “invited” their players for next season already for those LIV events


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No one called in - that can’t happen anymore

And coverage wasn’t conclusive hence why they asked the player himself then next day and he clarified- as long as it’s sorted before the next round starts that’s all that should matter. And it’s not a new thing been happening for years
		
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I’m sure in the Sunday afternoon coverage the commentary team said they also spoke with him Saturday.

My point is there are various staff watching for breeches etc, is it  it their job to assess these straight away or are they just there for the tea and biscuits.

This isn’t an anti pga pro liv argument, but the cynic in me says someone stired the pot overnight.

I really hope he does win it now


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when that starts and it’s a true qualifying then they will look at it. No one can qualify for next year - they have “picked” or “invited” their players for next season already for those LIV events
		
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But still, the future of LIV golf has qualification places, so the tenuous argument that it is “invitation only” isn’t true beyond 2023 - something that will be factored in on the OWGR application.


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when that starts and it’s a true qualifying then they will look at it. No one can qualify for next year - they have “picked” or “invited” their players for next season already for those LIV events
		
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I believe the lack of a cut is a showstopper.
Neither the 54 hole, nor the circus nature and lack of qualification don't seem to be showstoppers, though I can see an argument for both having to change to some degree in order to get OWGR accreditation.
To me, it's the closed (as opposed to open) nature of the entire series that doesn't fit with the concept of what 'competitive golf' is about. Until entry to LIV tournaments are truly open - through qualification into individual events in a similar way to regular tournaments elsewhere - then I'm against LIV getting OWGR. That uncompetitive nature is more important, for me, than (what I believe is a showstopper for OWGR qualification) of a cut where those that miss don't get prize money.
FWIW. It looks like 'qualification' will not be the same as other tours - with qualification for individual events. But it will be a single qualification event where those that qualify will play for the entire season. That doesn't seem sufficient to me - but does allow LIV bots and fans to announce 'there'll be qualification' in, to me, the same way the COO 'countered' the lawyer's blunder announcement!
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-relegation-promotion-qualifying-tournament


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But still, the future of LIV golf has qualification places, so the tenuous argument that it is “invitation only” isn’t true beyond 2023 - something that will be factored in on the OWGR application.
		
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When that - and any other requirements for OWGR eligibility - has been in place for any required qualification period, then perhaps an application should be accepted. Until then any application should be rejected - on 'does not qualify for entry criteri' grounds!


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## IainP (Aug 15, 2022)

RRidges said:



*I believe the lack of a cut is a showstopper.*
Neither the 54 hole, nor the circus nature and lack of qualification don't seem to be showstoppers, though I can see an argument for both having to change to some degree in order to get OWGR accreditation.
To me, it's the closed (as opposed to open) nature of the entire series that doesn't fit with the concept of what 'competitive golf' is about. Until entry to LIV tournaments are truly open - through qualification into individual events in a similar way to regular tournaments elsewhere - then I'm against LIV getting OWGR. That uncompetitive nature is more important, for me, than (what I believe is a showstopper for OWGR qualification) of a cut where those that miss don't get prize money.
		
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https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2021/05/14/which-pga-tour-events-have-no-cut-106638/


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

IainP said:



https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2021/05/14/which-pga-tour-events-have-no-cut-106638/

Click to expand...

Most of those have an implied cut - simply for entry.
The St Jude that was the last tournament played and mentioned in that link, certainly had a cut - with Rory missing!
LIV's only equivalent is 'to be a member of the LIV circu's!


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 15, 2022)

Cam Smith 👀


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when that starts and it’s a true qualifying then they will look at it. No one can qualify for next year - they have “picked” or “invited” their players for next season already for those LIV events
		
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It was never going to be a fixed model, it was always going to evolve based on its success or lack of no different to any other business model


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 15, 2022)

Wouldn't be surprised if you don't see Cam Smith play on the PGA Tour again for a very long time after this past weekend.

Don't buy that sore hip nonsense for a second.


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## Imurg (Aug 15, 2022)

The statement does say that he's resting this week in order to be sure of competing for the FedEx Cup.......
And if he has already signed with LIV then, in my opinion,  he is massively disrespecting the rest of his fellow professionals by playing anyway.


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## IainP (Aug 15, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Cam Smith 👀
		
Click to expand...

Professional golf 2022 - the ultimate soap opera!


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't buy that sore hip nonsense for a second.
		
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Apparent it’s a mixture of carrying an excessively large wad of Saudi money in the same pocket that strained the hip, he did try to counter balance it with lies but the cash was just to heavy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I’m sure in the Sunday afternoon coverage the commentary team said they also spoke with him Saturday.

My point is there are various staff watching for breeches etc, is it  it their job to assess these straight away or are they just there for the tea and biscuits.

This isn’t an anti pga pro liv argument, but the cynic in me says someone stired the pot overnight.

I really hope he does win it now
		
Click to expand...

They have explained it pretty clearly , he wasn’t spoken to on the Saturday and it was only when they reviewed the footage they then asked Smith for clarification who confirmed that it was on the line and he didn’t know it was a rule and once Smith realised he had no issues with the ruling


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They have explained it pretty clearly , he wasn’t spoken to on the Saturday and it was only when they reviewed the footage they then asked Smith for clarification who confirmed that it was on the line and he didn’t know it was a rule and once Smith realised he had no issues with the ruling
		
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So in your expert opinion no body in the rules booth or commentary booth saw that breach or reviewed any footage until the following day?

Give your head a wobble Phil..


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So in your expert opinion no body in the rules booth or commentary booth saw that breach or reviewed any footage until the following day?

Give your head a wobble Phil..
		
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As they said 

Inital quick view they couldn’t see any issue

On viewing again the rebroadcast they thought it was close to the line and worth a revisit and on that second look it they felt it was close to the line and to ask the player 

Not everything is a conspiracy and it’s very possible that it’s exactly how they stated it was


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But still, the future of LIV golf has qualification places, so the tenuous argument that it is “invitation only” isn’t true beyond 2023 - something that will be factored in on the OWGR application.
		
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But it’s not 2023 yet - anything beyond now is pure theory 

So when they do put the application in then it’s going to take a while , also one person or is it two being able to qualify will I don’t think satisfy the requirements 

For them to get the full level of rankings they will need to go to the same requirements as the other tours


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Professional golf 2022 - the ultimate soap opera!
		
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And conspiracy theory generator!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The statement does say that he's resting this week in order to be sure of competing for the FedEx Cup.......
And if he has already signed with LIV then, in my opinion,  he is massively disrespecting the rest of his fellow professionals by playing anyway.
		
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Bit strong that, if he has signed with LIV, he can play wherever he likes until he makes his 1st appearance on a LIV event, that's the precedent set by the PGA Tour.


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bit strong that, if he has signed with LIV, he can play wherever he likes until he makes his 1st appearance on a LIV event, that's the precedent set by the PGA Tour.
		
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This forum is all about opinions, so strength or weakness of opinion is irrelevant!
But I too believe he's entitled to play PGAT events (or Majors) until he's teed it up in a LIV event. And there's no disrespect to other PGAT members until he has done so.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 15, 2022)

Interesting interview with Rickie Fowler about the whole PGA v Liv soap opera

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/...ckie-fowler-will-stay-pga-tour-liv-golf-news/

“I’ve told the Tour and Jay when I’ve met with them that I don’t think they have handled it very well at all. A lot of the stuff that has happened in the last 6 months to a year and is starting to happen, to me they are reacting to it versus when the talks of Premier Golf League and LIV came about is when they should have been proactive and gotten in front of it,” Fowler said.


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## Beezerk (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Apparent it’s a mixture of carrying an excessively large wad of Saudi money in the same pocket that strained the hip, he did try to counter balance it with lies but the cash was just to heavy.
		
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Not sure I’d mind having a sore hip due to a massive wedge of money 😂


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## BiMGuy (Aug 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure I’d mind having a sore hip due to a massive wedge of money 😂
		
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Indeed, I’ve got a sore hip because I’m falling apart 😭


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## Beezerk (Aug 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Indeed, I’ve got a sore hip because I’m falling apart 😭
		
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Ditto 🙈😂


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes. *If the top 48 owgr of today jumped, and only played LIV, then the majors have to ensure they qualify*. The majors have no motivation to 'punish' them like the pgat ot DPWT who are commercial rivals to the Saudis. Having a theoretical access to the majors through Asia tour or qualifying rounds will not ensure they are in the starting field. So they will modify the criteria to ensure that they are. Maybe a top 20 on the LiV not already qualified by other means for example. Similar to Ryder cup team qualification.
		
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You're reaching somewhat....


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## Backsticks (Aug 15, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			You're reaching somewhat....
		
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For what some ?

Its a hypothetical.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As they said

Inital quick view they couldn’t see any issue

On viewing again the rebroadcast they thought it was close to the line and worth a revisit and on that second look it they felt it was close to the line and to ask the player

Not everything is a conspiracy and it’s very possible that it’s exactly how they stated it was
		
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Looks like Thomas Bjorn agrees with my stand Phil, please feel free to message him directly and correct him also.  Maybe he’s pro LIV and in bed with the sports washers?

Quote taken from twitter:

*Once a round has finished there should be only disqualification available for deliberate rules infringements. The Cam Smith situation was not deliberate and therefore he shouldn’t be penalised retrospectively. I’m probably wrong in this opinion, not the first time….*


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Looks like Thomas Bjorn agrees with my stand Phil, please feel free to message him directly and correct him also.  Maybe he’s pro LIV and in bed with the sports washers?

Quote taken from twitter:

*Once a round has finished there should be only disqualification available for deliberate rules infringements. The Cam Smith situation was not deliberate and therefore he shouldn’t be penalised retrospectively. I’m probably wrong in this opinion, not the first time….*

Click to expand...

Or maybe he just has an opinion 🤷‍♂️ As opposed to him being a rules official 

no idea what the pro liv nonsense is about


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or maybe he just has an opinion 🤷‍♂️ As opposed to him being a rules official

no idea what the pro liv nonsense is about
		
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So he has an opinion but has that right, anyone on here has an opinion and if it doesn’t agree with yours you get your undies in knots! Oh Phil……

Pro liv, as in supporting the rumoured move, sticking up for smith, no different to you being against it.  Or is that just another opinion?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			So he has an opinion but has that right, anyone on here has an opinion and if it doesn’t agree with yours you get your undies in knots! Oh Phil……
		
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Where did I say someone couldn’t have an opinion 🤷‍♂️

Seems it’s you getting all stressed about it - i have just posted what the golf officials did at the time and think all the conspiracy stuff is a load of nonsense


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where did I say someone couldn’t have an opinion 🤷‍♂️

Seems it’s you getting all stressed about it - i have just posted what the golf officials did at the time and think all the conspiracy stuff is a load of nonsense
		
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Stressed… 😂😂😂😂… not one bit.  Now amused on the other hand, yup 100%!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 15, 2022)

I bet there's a few at PGA HQ that are absolutely SEETHING that they let Patrick Reed get away with all those infringements.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I bet there's a few at PGA HQ that are absolutely SEETHING that they let Patrick Reed get away with all those infringements. 

Click to expand...

Apparently you can claim them days after…. Wouldn’t surprise me if they try and call them in after reviewing footage a year later


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## RRidges (Aug 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Looks like Thomas Bjorn agrees with my stand Phil, please feel free to message him directly and correct him also.  Maybe he’s pro LIV and in bed with the sports washers?

Quote taken from twitter:

*Once a round has finished there should be only disqualification available for deliberate rules infringements. The Cam Smith situation was not deliberate and therefore he shouldn’t be penalised retrospectively. I’m probably wrong in this opinion, not the first time….*

Click to expand...

I agree re retrospective DQ-ing, but the penalty should still be applied.
There's actually an argument that his action _was_ deliberate, though not a deliberate breach.


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			For what some ?

Its a hypothetical.
		
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But it's entirely unrealistic. The top 48 aren't going to jump ship.


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## Backsticks (Aug 16, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			But it's entirely unrealistic. The top 48 aren't going to jump ship.
		
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Thats not the point. Its a hyothetival question, and a valid one.


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## IainP (Aug 16, 2022)

RRidges said:



			And conspiracy theory generator!
		
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Yep, all over the place!  😉😁😂

https://golficity.com/why-has-tpc-southwind-removed-djs-plaque/


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## RRidges (Aug 16, 2022)

ID-ed and linked to by a regular WRX message
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/SB-Blogs/Newsletter-Media/2022/08/15.aspx
Talk about keeping things in the family!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 16, 2022)

What it means to someone that has qualified to play on the PGA Tour, finally at the age of 32 (Kevin Roy, just in case link does not work).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558927729512398857


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## DrMac (Aug 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What it means to someone that has qualified to play on the PGA Tour, finally at the age of 32 (Kevin Roy, just in case link does not work).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558927729512398857

Click to expand...

Just wait until we see the videos of guys after they have been transferred to the 4 aces. They could be just as meaningful..........


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## LincolnShep (Aug 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What it means to someone that has qualified to play on the PGA Tour, finally at the age of 32 (Kevin Roy, just in case link does not work).
		
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Never heard of this guy and I'm welling up.


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## JamesR (Aug 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Apparently you can claim them days after…. Wouldn’t surprise me if they try and call them in after reviewing footage a year later
		
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Only before the next round of that tournament


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 16, 2022)

Grab your popcorn. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559325194061115392


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## Oddsocks (Aug 16, 2022)

“Rumours” are that fowler has a chunky offer but no indications as to whether he is tempted.  Based on past years form it wouldn’t surprise me if he jumped for a big cheque.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Grab your popcorn.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559325194061115392

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Saint Rory will be loving this.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 16, 2022)

Re the Eddie Pep Twitter vid
removed as it has an F bomb in the header, 2 infractions have been given as a result.

If anyone reposts it with the same tag line, they will also get one


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## JamesR (Aug 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			“Rumours” are that fowler has a chunky offer but no indications as to whether he is tempted.  Based on past years form it wouldn’t surprise me if he jumped for a big cheque.
		
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Is that like all the other rumours, totally unsubstantiated?


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## Backsticks (Aug 16, 2022)

Fowler should definitely go. He has slipped below PGAT level really at this stage and would be more comfortable at LiV level. Very much yesterdays man that never really was, so may as well cash in. He is the sort of player that the PGAT is probably happy enough to flush out, and reinforces the Saudi tour as a half way house, or younger mans champions tour. Could make himself a bit of a character, wearing the all orange attire for all 4, sorry, 3 days.

Talking of characters, any rumours of Beef going Saudi ? It could make itself a circus for mediocre ranking golfers, but ones who have a schtick going as part of the act. Sort of a golfing vaudeville.


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## IainP (Aug 16, 2022)

Scott Vincent has sort of bucked the trend. 
Mid may (before Centurion) ranked 147
Currently ranked 84
(Dropped a place at the weekend)

Would expect by his own admission hasn't play too well at the LIV events.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 16, 2022)

DP World Tour now cashing in on the popularity of LIV players....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559557610608672769


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## IanM (Aug 16, 2022)

Do you mean "notoriety" rather than "popularity?"


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## RichA (Aug 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			DP World Tour now cashing in on the popularity of LIV players....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559557610608672769

Click to expand...

What a humble individual he is. 
Best thing about that is the replies.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Is that like all the other rumours, totally unsubstantiated?
		
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According to the media source that posted it as part of an interview, it was quoted by him.

I won’t post the source as I’ve already had my cheeks slapped and the source conflicts with our lovely forum owners


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## RRidges (Aug 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			Scott Vincent has sort of bucked the trend.
Mid may (before Centurion) ranked 147
Currently ranked 84
(Dropped a place at the weekend)

Would expect by his own admission hasn't play too well at the LIV events.
		
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H'mm. A bit misleading!
Ranked 91 the week before Centurion - thanks to a win in The International.
A 7th place in Japan PGA, part of the Asian tour, a couple of weeks ago helped too.
Does seem that playing well on Asian tour _can_ keep some LIV players at a level where they can get into majors. Though it will depend on how many choose that route, as the more that do, the greater 'dilution' of points for LIV players as a group.


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## RRidges (Aug 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Is that like all the other rumours, totally* unsubstantiated*?
		
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Isn't that the definition of a rumour?


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## JamesR (Aug 16, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Isn't that the definition of a rumour?
		
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A rumour can have a basis, or like most LIV stuff, just be made up by the LIV twitterati


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## RRidges (Aug 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			A rumour can have a basis, or like most LIV stuff, just be made up by the LIV twitterati
		
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Still unsubstantiated - whether based on logic/observation of simply lies!


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 16, 2022)

As I've said before, so far the only player I'll really miss is Cam Smith. Also, it's sad to say but Rickie Fowler probably should go to LIV. He makes a small fortune off endorsements, but unless he starts playing better those will end soon.
 I wonder what's happening on the TV deal front. I think Norman is pretty close to the Murdochs so I'll bet he's trying to get Fox to do it here in the US. However, they were terrible when they had the USGA contract. Do any of you think Sky Sports would consider it? Poor David Feherty doesn't have much to do until they get a contract.


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## sunshine (Aug 17, 2022)

Eddie Pepperell what a legend 🤣🤣🤣


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			As I've said before, so far the only player I'll really miss is Cam Smith. Also, it's sad to say but Rickie Fowler probably should go to LIV. He makes a small fortune off endorsements, but unless he starts playing better those will end soon.
I wonder what's happening on the TV deal front. I think Norman is pretty close to the Murdochs so I'll bet he's trying to get Fox to do it here in the US. However, they were terrible when they had the USGA contract. Do any of you think Sky Sports would consider it? Poor David Feherty doesn't have much to do until they get a contract.
		
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Indeed, as the current Open champion Cam will be a similar, or even bigger coup as DJ was. I agree re Fowler. LIV works for those fading on PGAT but not old enough for Seniors.
The problem LIV will have with TV deals is that they tend to be done 2 years or more in advance. There may be some contacts through the Trump organisation though.
I'm sure Feherty would have negotiated a decent up-front payment to cover his down time. He's certainly improved the commentary imo. Him and the microphones in holes are 2 positives about LIV imo. I missed the 'clonkle' of the holed ball in the St Jude.


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Re the Eddie Pep Twitter vid
removed as it has an F bomb in the header, 2 infractions have been given as a result.

If anyone reposts it with the same tag line, they will also get one
		
Click to expand...

What if it's the link to the Golf Monthly article that contains it?


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## Imurg (Aug 17, 2022)

And that's the problem...
No argument with Fragger's application of the rule but how can it be applied when the GM website/SM posts the same clip.

The rule has always been "if you see it in the magazine(and by default these days) online/Twitter/Instagram etc etc..its OK to post on here....
They even have a blanked out F-bomb.....


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## Beezerk (Aug 17, 2022)

I’ve just watched the tweet, did anyone else find it really cringey?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 17, 2022)

RRidges said:



			What if it's the link to the Golf Monthly article that contains it? 

Click to expand...

It wasn’t, it was lifted from twitter
But the fact that another GM platform has shown it in full puts me in an impossible position.

The infractions will be lifted but this is still a no swearing area 

I’m LIVid 🙄


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## Imurg (Aug 17, 2022)

Checkmate


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## BrianM (Aug 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It wasn’t, it was lifted from twitter
But the fact that another GM platform has shown it in full puts me in an impossible position.

The infractions will be lifted but this is still a no swearing area

I’m LIVid 🙄
		
Click to expand...

What chance have you got


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Indeed, as the current Open champion Cam will be a similar, or even bigger coup as DJ was. I agree re Fowler. LIV works for those fading on PGAT but not old enough for Seniors.
*The problem LIV will have with TV deals is that they tend to be done 2 years or more in advance. There may be some contacts through the Trump organisation though.*
I'm sure Feherty would have negotiated a decent up-front payment to cover his down time. He's certainly improved the commentary imo. Him and the microphones in holes are 2 positives about LIV imo. I missed the 'clonkle' of the holed ball in the St Jude.
		
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LIV have got some pretty experienced people in the boardroom, so as far as contacts go, I'd imagine they aren't short of opportunities to explore - Norman is on record as saying they had 12 (from memory) parties interested in delivering LIV either as a main broadcaster or to run alongside.
Of course these things take time to sort out, but LIV is the hottest topic in golf, and the TV networks will be keen to be part of it - I'd expect something to be in place for 2023.


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

LIV might be the hottest topic, but not in a good way, or in a way that makes it attractive to media.
So far, there has been no golf of any worth. So far, there is no widespread interest in what Saudi offers.
The media and public interest is in the elite pro golf civil war contest itself. With most rooting for LIV to end up as a second division midlife champions tour, and have no negative influence on proper competitive top flight pro golf.

The hottest topic in global politics at the moment is the war in the Ukraine. That doesnt mean that people want it to continue.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Reed has now brought a lawsuit against the Golf Channel and Chamblee -

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/patrick-reed-sues-golf-channel-and-brandel-chamblee-for-750m


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			LIV might be the hottest topic, but not in a good way, or in a way that makes it attractive to media.
So far, there has been no golf of any worth. So far, there is no widespread interest in what Saudi offers.
The media and public interest is in the elite pro golf civil war contest.

The hottest topic in global politics at the moment is the war in the Ukraine. That doesnt mean that people want it to continue.
		
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Lol, lots of people want LIV to continue backsticks - you're stretching the argument a little to compare it to a war in Ukraine.


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, lots of people want LIV to continue backsticks - you're stretching the argument a little to compare it to a war in Ukraine.
		
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The comparison is valid. LIV is making plenty of headlines for sure, and is the number one topic in tour pro golf talk. But thats all about the battle itself. It is not, because the sports following public and media are so interested in the Saudi tours prospects as a spectator sport per se. There is a big distinction. Its a disingenuous spin to say that the LIV prominence at the moment is indicative of the interest in what that tour has to offer.


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## IainP (Aug 17, 2022)

If a week is a long time in politics, a year is a long time in professional golf!

If the link works this is the BMW field last year
https://www.owgr.com/events/bmw-championship-9239


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, lots of people want LIV to continue backsticks - you're stretching the argument a little to compare it to a war in Ukraine.
		
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Sure, if by lots, you mean the few hundred people with vested financial interest in it.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The comparison is valid. LIV is making plenty of headlines for sure, and is the number one topic in tour pro golf talk. But thats all about the battle itself. It is not, because the sports following public and media are so interested in the Saudi tours prospects as a spectator sport per se. There is a big distinction. Its a disingenuous spin to say that the LIV prominence at the moment is indicative of the interest in what that tour has to offer.
		
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I'd disagree, the standard of golf on LIV has been 1st class by plenty of players - DJ yet to have a round over par for one.
The problem is, the golf is being overshadowed by the medias focus on the battleground between the PGA Tour, abd LIV, but for those that have taken the time to watch LIV events there has been plenty of decent golf entertainment considering it's infanct.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And that's the problem...
No argument with Fragger's application of the rule but how can it be applied when the GM website/SM posts the same clip.

The rule has always been "if you see it in the magazine(and by default these days) online/Twitter/Instagram etc etc..its OK to post on here....
*They even have a blanked out F-bomb*.....

Click to expand...

That’s what boggled me, it was clear what the blanked out word was, if people are still stupid enough to click on it only to get offended then we live in seriously dangerous times.


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

There can be a sporadic good round anywhere. But the standard of the fields in the Saudi tour so far is abysmal comoared to a Pgat event. The smaller field, and negligible world top 50s in it define it as second division. In no rational analysis can the golf there be considered anything as remotely as good or as comoetitive as the pgat. There is a market for the Asian tour, and the Euro tour. LIv is behind both at the moment. For those who will watch everything and anything pro golf, they might add it to their viewing. But that is minute portion of the golf spectator world at the moment. The Phil thing and money they threw at him shows how desperate and out of tune they are. No one wants to see Phil any more. The champions tour is his sphere.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But the standard of the fields in the Saudi tour so far is abysmal comoared to a Pgat event.
		
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In the main Yes but not all PGA Tour Events..
Some have very weak fields on the PGA Tour as well devoid of many well known names.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			There can be a sporadic good round anywhere. But the standard of the fields in the Saudi tour so far is abysmal comoared to a Pgat event. The smaller field, and negligible world top 50s in it define it as second division. In no rational analysis can the golf there be considered anything as remotely as good or as comoetitive as the pgat. There is a market for the Asian tour, and the Euro tour. LIv is behind both at the moment. For those who will watch everything and anything pro golf, they might add it to their viewing. But that is minute portion of the golf spectator world at the moment. The Phil thing and money they threw at him shows how desperate and out of tune they are. No one wants to see Phil any more. The champions tour is his sphere.
		
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If you think LIV is behind the DP Tour, there's no point taking the conversation any further.

The DP Tour is now propped up by a few events, mainly the opens and the BMW at Wentworth - but in terms of quality of fields week in week out if you will, LIV is miles ahead.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 17, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			As I've said before, so far the only player I'll really miss is Cam Smith.
		
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I think news of Cam Smith jumping ship had a lot to do with that player meeting being organised yesterday.
For the 1st time they were like hold on a top top player is going here.

Let's get all the other top players in a room to make sure no one else is thinking of doing the same and dicuss what the PGA Tour can do better.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 17, 2022)

But it’s wrong that it takes a young top player to force their hand on this.


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## Crow (Aug 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			If a week is a long time in politics, a year is a long time in professional golf!

If the link works this is the BMW field last year
https://www.owgr.com/events/bmw-championship-9239

Click to expand...

That's pretty eye-opening, I don't know all the players who've gone over to LIV but there are quite a few in that top 50.


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## RichA (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you think LIV is behind the DP Tour, there's no point taking the conversation any further.

The DP Tour is now propped up by a few events, mainly the opens and the BMW at Wentworth - but in terms of quality of fields week in week out if you will, LIV is miles ahead.
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the DP tour's advantage is that its "propped up" by a diverse raft of corporate sponsors and partners, as opposed to a single entity with questionable motives.


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## JamesR (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you think LIV is behind the DP Tour, there's no point taking the conversation any further.

The DP Tour is now propped up by a few events, mainly the opens and the BMW at Wentworth - but in terms of quality of fields week in week out if you will, LIV is miles ahead.
		
Click to expand...

But LIV is a week in week out thing.
So of course there is no dilution of field.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			But LIV is a week in week out thing.
So of course there is no dilution of field.
		
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Which is one area where it beats the tours, next year, 14 events with a full field, which is probably about as many “full field” events as the rest of the tours can muster between them.


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## rksquire (Aug 17, 2022)

@Liverpoolphil and others who may be interested: The new system has seemingly no barrier to LIVs inclusion (on paper!) - neither the size of the field (above 30), the 54 holes (based on rounds) or indeed qualification requirements.  The difficulty LIV has is being recognised by a board and technical committee that has members who, publicly, are opposed to it.  Should it gain OGWR status, the 48 man field is a limiting factor to how upwardly mobile those who are successful would be - more more difficult to win in a 150+ field.  However, using the 'new' criteria, it should be able to recognise who the best players are, regardless of Tour affiliation (supposedly - but in reality the PGAT remains king).  Official extracts:

*"As many of the game’s best players have risen through the ranks to compete on its biggest stages, a thriving global golf ecosystem is important to OWGR and to the organisations represented on its Governing Board. Therefore, a comprehensive impact analysis was conducted by the OWGR, with reviews internal to each organisation being held to ensure players have appropriate opportunities to advance. Also, OWGR is developing mechanisms that will assist in identifying top world wide players. These mechanisms will be provided to Majors and Tours for potential inclusion in tournaments and Tour eligibility."*

*"By being agnostic to Tour affiliation, the Ranking accurately evaluates Field Ratings for tournaments on all tours, providing appropriate upward mobility to reward play that is proportionate with achievement. In its analysis, OWGR ensured that consistent high-level play resulted in significant improvement in a player’s Ranking, regardless of which Tour he competes."*

*"Field Size – Field size has no effect on the Ranking because all fields award the appropriate number of Ranking Points for the relative performance required."*

*"Limited Field Tournament Shall mean a tournament which has less than 30 qualified players."*

The hurdle is actually gaining status against an advisory panel that has it's own, already affiliated, position to protect.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you think LIV is behind the DP Tour, there's no point taking the conversation any further.

The DP Tour is now propped up by a few events, mainly the opens and the BMW at Wentworth - but in terms of quality of fields week in week out if you will, LIV is miles ahead.
		
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Week in, week out????,  can you show me the field for LIV this week


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 17, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Week in, week out????,  can you show me the field for LIV this week
		
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No problem. Please see below for the full list of players at this week's LIV tournament......




















The end.


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## MarkT (Aug 17, 2022)

Not sure where people stand on the women playing the Aramco Series. Meg MacLaren has given most of them a swerve and I'm pretty sure Mel Reid won't play in them - for most players it's the only way they've got a chance of making a living on the LET

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/th...-for-these-girls-to-compete-dame-laura-davies


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## rksquire (Aug 17, 2022)

Appreciate Boxing is not golf related, but given the fight this weekend and a number of shared issues I think it is appropriate to conflate / compare how Saudi funded golf & boxing are being portrayed.

Sky Sports, re: LIV golf - outspoken with regard to opposition, particularly in their podcasts.  
Sky Sports, re: Boxing (AJ vs Usyk) - outspoken with it's support and promotion as it is broadcasting the event.
Competitors, golf: ", not a politician, just to here to play golf" - vilified in most media quarters.
Competitors, boxing: "I'm here for boxing" - media comment that apparently it's a complicated issue but not competitor is not vilified.
Poulter questioned as to whether he would play anywhere for money (comparing Saudi to Moscow)
Usyk asked by no-one if he would fight anywhere for money (no-one yet comparing Jeddah to Moscow).
AJ - still seemingly has enough to offer that he remains an English media darling and all round good guy
Westwood / Bland / Poulter - greedy also rans who possibly are, collectively, the devil incarnate.

Is it safe to assume that those who are anti-LIV but also boxing fans will be boycotting the Jeddah event?  Golf seems to have entrenched itself in a position of them and us; Boxing has managed, like other sports, to blur the lines sufficiently.  Of course the difference is the existential threat to an established tour that is not at the party; Boxing / Tennis / F1 etc ruling organisations remain a stakeholder... the PGAT does not, and, as yet, refuses to be engaged.  Of course this gives the PGAT the moral high ground but it's only for selfish reasons (in my opinion).


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## GB72 (Aug 17, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Appreciate Boxing is not golf related, but given the fight this weekend and a number of shared issues I think it is appropriate to conflate / compare how Saudi funded golf & boxing are being portrayed.

Sky Sports, re: LIV golf - outspoken with regard to opposition, particularly in their podcasts. 
Sky Sports, re: Boxing (AJ vs Usyk) - outspoken with it's support and promotion as it is broadcasting the event.
Competitors, golf: ", not a politician, just to here to play golf" - vilified in most media quarters.
Competitors, boxing: "I'm here for boxing" - media comment that apparently it's a complicated issue but not competitor is not vilified.
Poulter questioned as to whether he would play anywhere for money (comparing Saudi to Moscow)
Usyk asked by no-one if he would fight anywhere for money (no-one yet comparing Jeddah to Moscow).
AJ - still seemingly has enough to offer that he remains an English media darling and all round good guy
Westwood / Bland / Poulter - greedy also rans who possibly are, collectively, the devil incarnate.

Is it safe to assume that those who are anti-LIV but also boxing fans will be boycotting the Jeddah event?  Golf seems to have entrenched itself in a position of them and us; Boxing has managed, like other sports, to blur the lines sufficiently.  Of course the difference is the existential threat to an established tour that is not at the party; Boxing / Tennis / F1 etc ruling organisations remain a stakeholder... the PGAT does not, and, as yet, refuses to be engaged.  Of course this gives the PGAT the moral high ground but it's only for selfish reasons (in my opinion).
		
Click to expand...

It is a fair point. Other sports, including F1 as well, do not seem to get the same attention that golf is and that is due to the LIV tour going against the current establishment and so are not only lacking that level of PR backing in the media spotlight but it also serves the establishment well to emphasise the distasteful source of the funding. Now, as I have said before, I have an equal dislike the whole process of sportswashing but there are some pretty hypocritical attitudes in the overall coverage of varying sports depending on whether it suits the media or the sporting bodies to carry and emphasise the sports washing element. I am not saying that LIV should not be held to account, more to the point I think that all sporting bodies should be held to account but the expected tirade about sportswashing seems strangely absent from, for example, currnet social media boxing threads.


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## fundy (Aug 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It wasn’t, it was lifted from twitter
But the fact that another GM platform has shown it in full puts me in an impossible position.

The infractions will be lifted but this is still a no swearing area

I’m LIVid 🙄
		
Click to expand...


Maybe the forum rules could be aligned with the magazine sites, would make your job a lot easier surely!!!


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## JamesR (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Which is one area where it beats the tours, next year, 14 events with a full field, which is probably about as many “full field” events as the rest of the tours can muster between them.
		
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Or, it isn’t as good as the tours because there are barely any events


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Appreciate Boxing is not golf related, but given the fight this weekend and a number of shared issues I think it is appropriate to conflate / compare how Saudi funded golf & boxing are being portrayed.

Sky Sports, re: LIV golf - outspoken with regard to opposition, particularly in their podcasts. 
Sky Sports, re: Boxing (AJ vs Usyk) - outspoken with it's support and promotion as it is broadcasting the event.
Competitors, golf: ", not a politician, just to here to play golf" - vilified in most media quarters.
Competitors, boxing: "I'm here for boxing" - media comment that apparently it's a complicated issue but not competitor is not vilified.
Poulter questioned as to whether he would play anywhere for money (comparing Saudi to Moscow)
Usyk asked by no-one if he would fight anywhere for money (no-one yet comparing Jeddah to Moscow).
AJ - still seemingly has enough to offer that he remains an English media darling and all round good guy
Westwood / Bland / Poulter - greedy also rans who possibly are, collectively, the devil incarnate.

Is it safe to assume that those who are anti-LIV but also boxing fans will be boycotting the Jeddah event?  Golf seems to have entrenched itself in a position of them and us; Boxing has managed, like other sports, to blur the lines sufficiently.  Of course the difference is the existential threat to an established tour that is not at the party; Boxing / Tennis / F1 etc ruling organisations remain a stakeholder... the PGAT does not, and, as yet, refuses to be engaged.  Of course this gives the PGAT the moral high ground but it's only for selfish reasons (in my opinion).
		
Click to expand...

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/box...g-Saudi-Arabia-Oleksandr-Usyk-boxing-news/amp

Been a fair amount of criticism towards the boxing going there 

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2...e-to-speak-out-says-drivers-association-chair

And F1 looks like they have come close to boycotting


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## GB72 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.express.co.uk/sport/box...g-Saudi-Arabia-Oleksandr-Usyk-boxing-news/amp

Been a fair amount of criticism towards the boxing going there

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2...e-to-speak-out-says-drivers-association-chair

And F1 looks like they have come close to boycotting
		
Click to expand...

Strangely an article about boxing actually appears to have more column inches about LIV whilst only posting the most tame of questioning to AJ ('Have you heard about sportswashing' 'No' 'OK then next question'). Really not much vitriol, just the most basic of questioning to avoid being accused of skirting the issue. 

Second article seems to simply say that drivers want their say going forward. Specifcally states that the Saudi Grand Prix will continue. 

Neither of these seem to have any of the vitriol aimed at golf and that is wrong.


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## Imurg (Aug 17, 2022)

I made the point, about 4000 posts ago...
13 wrongs don't make a right.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 17, 2022)

A number of F1 drivers spoke out about the human rights issues.

They are racing there for one race. It’s not like the drivers are choosing to be directly employed by the Saudis as the golfers are.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Appreciate Boxing is not golf related, but given the fight this weekend and a number of shared issues I think it is appropriate to conflate / compare how Saudi funded golf & boxing are being portrayed.

Sky Sports, re: LIV golf - outspoken with regard to opposition, particularly in their podcasts. 
Sky Sports, re: Boxing (AJ vs Usyk) - outspoken with it's support and promotion as it is broadcasting the event.
Competitors, golf: ", not a politician, just to here to play golf" - vilified in most media quarters.
Competitors, boxing: "I'm here for boxing" - media comment that apparently it's a complicated issue but not competitor is not vilified.
Poulter questioned as to whether he would play anywhere for money (comparing Saudi to Moscow)
Usyk asked by no-one if he would fight anywhere for money (no-one yet comparing Jeddah to Moscow).
AJ - still seemingly has enough to offer that he remains an English media darling and all round good guy
Westwood / Bland / Poulter - greedy also rans who possibly are, collectively, the devil incarnate.

Is it safe to assume that those who are anti-LIV but also boxing fans will be boycotting the Jeddah event?  Golf seems to have entrenched itself in a position of them and us; Boxing has managed, like other sports, to blur the lines sufficiently.  Of course the difference is the existential threat to an established tour that is not at the party; Boxing / Tennis / F1 etc ruling organisations remain a stakeholder... the PGAT does not, and, as yet, refuses to be engaged.  Of course this gives the PGAT the moral high ground but it's only for selfish reasons (in my opinion).
		
Click to expand...

The moral high ground argument is a beautiful argument. If somebody doesn't like something (i.e. LIV golf), using the moral argument is genius if you can make it fit. Because, no one can genuinely disagree with the nasty human rights record in Saudi Arabia (at least in this forum, or in the west generally), so the moral argument cannot be directly challenged as being incorrect. However, LIV golf is not really all about morals. It is a golf tour, people get paid to take part and the hope is fans will enjoy it. So, the real argument is really about is it a good golf tour, is is better than the tours already out there or is it doomed to fail. But, if you try and discuss ALL the other factors about what you think of LIV, the ones that don't like it and stick to the moral argument just take the nuclear option, and question your own moral beliefs. They will twist it that, if you offer any positive comment about LIV, you are effectively a supporter of every single aspect of Saudi Arabian life and the appalling human rights record.

Sure, all else being equal, if there were no other differences at all between playing on LIV or PGA (in terms of amount of golf played or money earned), then you could wonder why a golfer would elect to play on LIV rather than PGA. You could question why they would choose to do that, given that the moral element may be the only difference between the 2. So, I've no issue with the moral element being included in the conversation, but if people hang that up as the major part of the argument, I wonder is it simply because they have little other to offer as genuine reasons against LIV?

However, the moral element only ever seems to come into the equation when people don't like something. But, if they do like something (or certainly no other reason to dislike it), then the moral element is just conveniently swept under the carpet. I've rarely heard a person or business genuinely say they turned down a huge opportunity simply down to moral grounds. Even if they did, you would often doubt their word, as there were probably other significant factors that went into that decision, and using the moral high ground reason afterwards just makes them look better.

Genuine question, but just exactly why is the climax of the European Tour in the Middle East? Is it money related? Could the climax have not been held is southern Europe (weather) or many other places that are less controversial? Was it even controversial, or do people just accept that because it was simply part of the European Tour, it didn't challenge the European Tour. Therefore, there was no threat, thus no reason to use human rights as an argument against it. Yet with LIV, which is a competitor of the Tours fans enjoy, suddenly human rights is a major issue.

Don't get me wrong, personally I'm not a fan of LIV. All for golfing reasons (I also don't like the human rights records in the Middle East, but for me it is not the key issue. I get what sports washing is made out to be, but ironically I think it can actually do the exact opposite. Countries put their reputation out there my investing in big global projects, it can actually accelerate their improvement on human rights as they want to improve their global standing, not worsen it).

If LIV genuinely takes off, and really manages to establish itself to the major global tour, you can guarantee Sky Sports will be interested in getting the broadcasting rights. Suddenly their moral beliefs will be put to the side, or they will come up with some excuse like "we have seen improvements in the human rights records, and a real determination to make improvements going forward, blah blah". Fans will start watching it. There may be a few stubborn ones that stop watching golf (or watch all the lesser players on other tours), but many that have been dead against LIV for moral reasons will end up watching it if it becomes the biggest golf on TV. The same ones that probably watch the boxing, Formula 1 that is hosted in the Middle East or China or watch Manchester City or Newcastle play on television. I get it that people can't research every single aspect of the things they invest in to see if any sources are from the Middle East, or be expected to not fuel their car simply because of where the petrol came from. However, they certainly don't HAVE to watch Man City games for example. They could just make a stand and boycott them altogether, really stand for what they believe in. Bet they don't though. They'll probably look forward to watching a big game between Man City and their own team, or another big team, because they enjoy it. Don't let morals get in the way of that. I bet some of them also have Haaland and/or DeBruyne in their fantasy football team


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## GB72 (Aug 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I made the point, about 4000 posts ago...
13 wrongs don't make a right.
		
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I very much agree, the argument is not that LIV do not deserve the criticism but rather that this should be aimed at all sports participating in sport washing events. At present, it would appear that this angle is being used simply where it suits and that there is a massive amount of hypocrisy both in the media and in the governing bodies of many sports as to what they deem worthy of increased sctuitiny and vitriol for the use of Saudi money.


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## Slab (Aug 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Or, it isn’t as good as the tours because there are barely any events
		
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Although its probably not fair to use the inaugural liv season as a measure for number of events

If accurate as reported: 
Next year a liv player will be required to play in 14 liv events in the season 
A pgat player will be required to play in 15 pgat events in the season 

So it seems pretty it'll be pretty even
Plus the pgat player gets to play in events that aren’t really proper pgat events but they’ll still count towards their requirement of 15 (i.e Majors and co-sanctioned, not sure about WGCs too) whereas a liv player will (if allowed) play in Majors, Asia tour, in addition to their requirement of 14  







(still not decided if I want the liv)


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## GB72 (Aug 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			A number of F1 drivers spoke out about the human rights issues.

They are racing there for one race. It’s not like the drivers are choosing to be directly employed by the Saudis as the golfers are.
		
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A totally vaoid point. My issue is more that the venom and vitriol aimed from the media and by people on social media does not seem to be equal across various sports. I am not arguing for less criticism of LIV but rather that this spotlight should be put on all such events. The media wants to report on and broadcast the Joshua fight, the boxing authorities don't care and so AJ and his promoters are getting a relatively free ride as far as the sportswashing accusations go. Imagine if any of the LIV golfers had stated that they really quite like Saudi as AJ has done, they would be attacked left right and centre.

Basically it appears that the sportswashing angle is being applied where it suits and when it suits and that is also wrong.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

GB72 said:



			A totally vaoid point. My issue is more that the venom and vitriol aimed from the media and by people on social media does not seem to be equal across various sports. I am not arguing for less criticism of LIV but rather that this spotlight should be put on all such events. The media wants to report on and broadcast the Joshua fight, the boxing authorities don't care and so AJ and his promoters are getting a relatively free ride as far as the sportswashing accusations go. Imagine if any of the LIV golfers had stated that they really quite like Saudi as AJ has done, they would be attacked left right and centre.

Basically it appears that the sportswashing angle is being applied where it suits and when it suits and that is also wrong.
		
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Yep, the difference being in other sports, there hasn’t been a lobby from a competitor to fuel the controversy- which we’ve seen from the PGA Tour and their media. (Monahan answering direct questions about 9/11 for example).

The PGA have reached straight for the bottom of the barrel in their protection of their tour, and everybody has jumped on board.
We’re now seeing the reaction to that in Reed taking legal action against Chamblee - which he is perfectly entitled to imho.

The alternative path was always better - cooperation between the tours, but that door was firmly closed from day 1.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

GB72 said:



			A totally vaoid point. My issue is more that the venom and vitriol aimed from the media and by people on social media does not seem to be equal across various sports. I am not arguing for less criticism of LIV but rather that this spotlight should be put on all such events. The media wants to report on and broadcast the Joshua fight, the boxing authorities don't care and so AJ and his promoters are getting a relatively free ride as far as the sportswashing accusations go. Imagine if any of the LIV golfers had stated that they really quite like Saudi as AJ has done, they would be attacked left right and centre.

Basically it appears that the sportswashing angle is being applied where it suits and when it suits and that is also wrong.
		
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Imo - we are on a golf forum , most will be looking at golf social media etc so it will look like its a bit more extreme 

I also think there are subtle differences - boxing and F1 are one offs , the F1 is part of the calendar to go there 

Golf - it’s a rival tour being created and it’s being run vastly different to all the other tours - LIV golf are “poaching” players as such and luring them with vast sums of money to make very rich golfers richer - the arrival of LIV has created division within the sport and the reaction will be diffeentb


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Or, it isn’t as good as the tours because there are barely any events
		
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There isn’t a good event that will grab public attention on the PGA tour until The Masters


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## evemccc (Aug 17, 2022)

GB72 said:



			A totally vaoid point. My issue is more that the venom and vitriol aimed from the media and by people on social media does not seem to be equal across various sports. I am not arguing for less criticism of LIV but rather that this spotlight should be put on all such events. The media wants to report on and broadcast the Joshua fight, the boxing authorities don't care and so AJ and his promoters are getting a relatively free ride as far as the sportswashing accusations go. Imagine if any of the LIV golfers had stated that they really quite like Saudi as AJ has done, they would be attacked left right and centre.

Basically it appears that the sportswashing angle is being applied where it suits and when it suits and that is also wrong.
		
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Of course it is though…I may be an old cynic but think I am also right to be

To look for moral consistency or logic from broadcasters such as Sky is sadly foolish when naked self-interest and greed prevails…

I think the LIV-PGA Tour thing is interesting in another way. It’s the first time I can think of when Americans feel threatened and possibly usurped by a foreign league in any sport…in basketball, golf, the NFL, and baseball their league has been dominant 

21st globalisation has basically been an extension of their leagues…and now the shoe is on the other foot…it’s the ‘other’ side of globalisation and they’re threatened. And as golf is an establishment sport in the US the establishment is really hating the challenge from LIV


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo - we are on a golf forum , most will be looking at golf social media etc so it will look like its a bit more extreme

I also think there are subtle differences - boxing and F1 are one offs , the F1 is part of the calendar to go there

Golf - it’s a rival tour being created and it’s being run vastly different to all the other tours - LIV golf are “poaching” players as such and luring them with vast sums of money to make very rich golfers richer - the arrival of LIV has created division within the sport and the reaction will be diffeentb
		
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I think your arguments prove exactly why the moral argument is a poor one overall.

You have said yourself, boxing and F1 are one offs and just part of their regular calendar. Whereas in golf, LIV is a rival tour and poaching players from the rival tours. These are perfectly good arguments to accepting something for one sport, but not for another sport. I certainly agree, LIV has created division in golf, I don't think it is a good thing either.

However, the above reasons are not good enough to then use the moral argument for LIV just because you don't like the sporting reasons, yet push it to the side for boxing or F1 just because you don't think it is having a negative impact on the sporting aspect. The moral argument applies to both, and so if one finds it an absolutely crucial part of the argument for one sport then it should be equally important for others. OK, it might be easier for them to get personal in golf and pin a lot of the blame on individual golfers for making that decision. However, arguably even more anger should be placed towards the likes of the FIA, an organisation of people that have collectively decided to go to the Middle East.


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## GB72 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo - we are on a golf forum , most will be looking at golf social media etc so it will look like its a bit more extreme

I also think there are subtle differences - boxing and F1 are one offs , the F1 is part of the calendar to go there

Golf - it’s a rival tour being created and it’s being run vastly different to all the other tours - LIV golf are “poaching” players as such and luring them with vast sums of money to make very rich golfers richer - the arrival of LIV has created division within the sport and the reaction will be diffeentb
		
Click to expand...

I hve a pretty broad spectrum of soclal media following to comment on as well as reading and listening to plenty of sport commentary. To try and differentiate sports, events and calendars is to tacitly accept that those are OK but golf is not. On a global level I suspect thateh Joshua fight and, indeed, the F1 would be signficantly more impactful as far as promoting the Saudi image than golf,

The discussion here is the sports washing element so the source of the money not how much is paid. If the funds came from a more acceptable source then I have no issue, that is simply competition in a capitalist market.

It would be very easy for the media to take a stand, don't broadcase the boxing, ignore the Saudi Grand Prix, don't show Newcastle matches etc but that will never happen and if it increases in popularity then LIV will be all over the mainstream media for sporting reasons only as well. 

A moral argument cannot be appleid in isolation, if the moral stance is to be applied then that morality must apply, unflinchingly, accross the board.


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## DrMac (Aug 17, 2022)

The fact Tiger has had to wade in probably shows how worried the PGAT and PGAT loyal players are. If the Saudis get Cam Smith (actual or near #1) then the floodgates could open for defections. If the Saudis can then get enough of the worlds top 50 between the end of the fedex and the 2023 tournament of champions then issues like them getting OWGR points could become moot. Given how much they have spent so far I don't see why the wouldn't spend just a bit more to properly up end pro golf. And Tiger and the PGAT know this.


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## IainP (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There isn’t a good event that will grab public attention on the PGA tour until The Masters
		
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Did you mean to type "The Players" ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think your arguments prove exactly why the moral argument is a poor one overall.

You have said yourself, boxing and F1 are one offs and just part of their regular calendar. Whereas in golf, LIV is a rival tour and poaching players from the rival tours. These are perfectly good arguments to accepting something for one sport, but not for another sport. I certainly agree, LIV has created division in golf, I don't think it is a good thing either.

However, the above reasons are not good enough to then use the moral argument for LIV just because you don't like the sporting reasons, yet push it to the side for boxing or F1 just because you don't think it is having a negative impact on the sporting aspect. The moral argument applies to both, and so if one finds it an absolutely crucial part of the argument for one sport then it should be equally important for others. OK, it might be easier for them to get personal in golf and pin a lot of the blame on individual golfers for making that decision. However, arguably even more anger should be placed towards the likes of the FIA, an organisation of people that have collectively decided to go to the Middle East.
		
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Who has pushed anything to the side 🤷‍♂️

I’m not a F1 fan or Boxing Fan but I don’t think any sport should be used for sport washing

I also think the World Cup going to Qatar was a disgrace just as a wasn’t a fan of it going to Russia 

I do have huge F1 fans in the family and they don’t watch any GP in the middle east


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			Did you mean to type "The Players" ?
		
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Fair point, I was focussed on the majors which are the events that register with the general public rather than the golf fan.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Guaranteed money on the PGA Tour incoming……?

Does this mean the Tour will be now classed as a series of exhibition events? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559798567128240135


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who has pushed anything to the side 🤷‍♂️

I’m not a F1 fan or Boxing Fan but I don’t think any sport should be used for sport washing

I also think the World Cup going to Qatar was a disgrace just as a wasn’t a fan of it going to Russia

I do have huge F1 fans in the family and they don’t watch any GP in the middle east
		
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I didn't say you were a fan. I was simple responding to YOUR comment about the difference between boxing, F1 and golf. You made that point, so being a fan or not, I'm assuming you believe the words you wrote. And, I also agree with the words you wrote.

I was then simply pointing out that you were making sporting arguments, and that just because there were differences between the sports in these contexts, it was no reason to mean that the moral part of the argument should be any different.

It should also be noted, the post of yours that I replied to was a post in which you were directly replying to GB72 about sports washing in all sports, were GB72 felt it should be applied equally across the board. Your response gave a reason why it is not, and you provided the subtle differences as to why. I do not necessarily know if you agree to those reasons, or were simply expressing what you felt they were more generally. However, either way, it still shows that the reasons people, generally, apply these moral arguments in some cases but less so in others has nothing to do with moral reasons at all, and more to do with whether they like the sporting reasons or not.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guaranteed money on the PGA Tour incoming……?

Does this mean the Tour will be now classed as a series of exhibition events?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559798567128240135

Click to expand...

They have the same in other major sports in the US. The NHL is €650k I think.

On a serious note. Is there any news about guaranteed money and food for the caddies?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			They have the same in other major sports in the US. The NHL is €650k I think.

On a serious note. Is there any news about guaranteed money and food for the caddies?
		
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Honestly don’t know, just seen that tweet, which may of course be untrue.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who has pushed anything to the side 🤷‍♂️

I’m not a F1 fan or Boxing Fan but I don’t think any sport should be used for sport washing

I also think the World Cup going to Qatar was a disgrace just as a wasn’t a fan of it going to Russia

I do have huge F1 fans in the family and they don’t watch any GP in the middle east
		
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That is great for you and the family then. As I said though, I wasn't talking about you personally, simply responded to the point you made to GB72 where you explained the difference, in your view between golf and other sports. Your reply being to a post about sportswashing.


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## CountLippe (Aug 17, 2022)

There are varying degrees of sports washing.  Unless I'm missing something, Liv golf has literally no business model and the sums involved are greater than any other sport, especially relative to what they're getting.


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## sweaty sock (Aug 17, 2022)

It seems to me, the longer this goes on, the more the pga is unwittingly becoming a feeder tour for LIV.  
If LIV gets majors then thats the only conclusion i can see unless LIV money runs out.  

Qualify for tour, play we'll, get Big ££ LIV offer.... 

I actially think for the next 3 or 4 years the current crop of LIV (assuming, smith, leishman, young and matsuyama go) is comparable to everything outside the majors...


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## JamesR (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There isn’t a good event that will grab public attention on the PGA tour until The Masters
		
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Every event can grab the public attention. There’s a different set of stories every week.
Especially for people who actually like golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Guaranteed money on the PGA Tour incoming……?

Does this mean the Tour will be now classed as a series of exhibition events?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559798567128240135

Click to expand...

It’s a shame that he hasn’t provided any proof or source for it but yet the LIV bots are running with it 

Those sort of posts add nothing but to widen the divide when they are just pure speculation but posted as a fact 

And it’s a shame that some run with it as if it’s a fact 

What is also a shame is when it’s then reposted again on other social media outlets

In another post you highlighted how PGA are causing all the issues etc - what do you think posts like about do ? And will they retract if it’s shown to be false ?


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## JamesR (Aug 17, 2022)

Slab said:



			Although its probably not fair to use the inaugural liv season as a measure for number of events

If accurate as reported: 
Next year a liv player will be required to play in 14 liv events in the season 
A pgat player will be required to play in 15 pgat events in the season 

So it seems pretty it'll be pretty even
Plus the pgat player gets to play in events that aren’t really proper pgat events but they’ll still count towards their requirement of 15 (i.e Majors and co-sanctioned, not sure about WGCs too) whereas a liv player will (if allowed) play in Majors, Asia tour, in addition to their requirement of 14  







(still not decided if I want the liv)
		
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There are only 14 events on one tour, but a whole year’s worth on the the Euro & PGA tours.
So one has a year’s entertainment value, whereas the other only 26% of the year.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There isn’t a good event that will grab public attention on the PGA tour until The Masters
		
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The AT&T Pro Am at Pebble
Phoenix Open
Honda 
Arnold Palmer
The Players
WGC Matchplay 
Texas Open

All events that will have big crowds both at the event and watching on the Telly


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## JamesR (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a shame that he hasn’t provided any proof or source for it but yet the LIV bots are running with it 

Those sort of posts add nothing but to widen the divide when they are just pure speculation but posted as a fact 

And it’s a shame that some run with it as if it’s a fact 

What is also a shame is when it’s then reposted again on other social media outlets

In another post you highlighted how PGA are causing all the issues etc - what do you think posts like about do ? And will they retract if it’s shown to be false ?
		
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Any twitter account that starts with LIV tends to be absolute rubbish & not worth reading.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The AT&T Pro Am at Pebble
Phoenix Open
Honda
Arnold Palmer
The Players
WGC Matchplay
Texas Open

All events that will have big crowds both at the event and watching on the Telly
		
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I think Mel really meant to write "there will not be a big event on the PGA that HE is interested in, until the Masters"


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## Slab (Aug 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			There are only 14 events on one tour, but a whole year’s worth on the the Euro & PGA tours.
So one has a year’s entertainment value, whereas the other only 26% of the year.
		
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True although if you're looking at it from a viewers perspective and golf entertainment, then we have the whole year of pgat _plus _the 14 liv events, so its even better then


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			It seems to me, the longer this goes on, the more the pga is unwittingly becoming a feeder tour for LIV.
If LIV gets majors then thats the only conclusion i can see unless LIV money runs out.
		
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Its all the same to the pgat. At the moment, they are a feeder tour to the Champions Tour. Where players go when past peak competitiveness doesnt really matter to them.


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## rksquire (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo - we are on a golf forum , most will be looking at golf social media etc so it will look like its a bit more extreme

*I also think there are subtle differences - boxing and F1 are one offs , the F1 is part of the calendar to go there

Golf - it’s a rival tour being created and it’s being run vastly different to all the other tours* - LIV golf are “poaching” players as such and luring them with vast sums of money to make very rich golfers richer - the arrival of LIV has created division within the sport and the reaction will be diffeentb
		
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Nailed it, although the differences aren't subtle.  One offs (annually!) under the existing regimes are no less / no more acceptable than two offs or 14 - offs with regard to Sportswashing / Human Rights, surely?.  A deal with the devil is a deal with the devil.  This boils down to dissatisfaction of, essentially, the PGAT (no such furore regarding PGA Tour China for example) and the envisaged threat it faces.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Any twitter account that starts with LIV tends to be absolute rubbish & not worth reading.
		
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I’d expand that to pretty much any social media account tbh. 😂


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## BrianM (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who has pushed anything to the side 🤷‍♂️

I’m not a F1 fan or Boxing Fan but I don’t think any sport should be used for sport washing

I also think the World Cup going to Qatar was a disgrace just as a wasn’t a fan of it going to Russia

*I do have huge F1 fans in the family and they don’t watch any GP in the middle east*

Click to expand...

Have a day off, HUGE fans but don't watch these races, there's no point in following the sport then.
You can't tell me they never watched all that drama in Abu Dhabi last year been the HUGE fans that they are.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have a day off, HUGE fans but don't watch these races, there's no point in following the sport then.
You can't tell me they never watched all that drama in Abu Dhabi last year been the HUGE fans that they are.
		
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I wonder if he and his family will not watch any of the World Cup in Qatar?


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It wasn’t, it was lifted from twitter
But the fact that another GM platform has shown it in full puts me in an impossible position.

The infractions will be lifted but this is still a no swearing area

I’m LIVid 🙄
		
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Apologies for triggering that situation for you. Indeed, 'impossible' situation, but appropriately handled!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have a day off, HUGE fans but don't watch these races, there's no point in following the sport then.
You can't tell me they never watched all that drama in Abu Dhabi last year been the HUGE fans that they are.
		
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Not sure why I have to justify to you and why you feel the to talk down 

Yes Huge fans - people that have followed the F1 all over the Europe , members of the BRC , even going to Australia to watch the GP twice.

And yes they didn’t watch the events in GP in the Middle East.


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## BrianM (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure why I have to justify to you and why you feel the to talk down

Yes Huge fans - people that have followed the F1 all over the Europe , members of the BRC , even going to Australia to watch the GP twice.

And yes they didn’t watch the events in GP in the Middle East.
		
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You haven't got to justify anything to me, I just don't believe it.
That's my issue though, not yours.


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV have got some pretty experienced people in the boardroom, so as far as contacts go, I'd imagine they aren't short of opportunities to explore - Norman is on record as saying they had 12 (from memory) parties interested in delivering LIV either as a main broadcaster or to run alongside.
Of course these things take time to sort out, but LIV is the hottest topic in golf, and the TV networks will be keen to be part of it - I'd expect something to be in place for 2023.
		
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You carry on treating Norman's statements as gospel. I'll wait for something more concrete - and from the broadcaster(s). Everything I've heard/seen from those 'in the Boardroom', including the COO's supposed rebuttal of the lawyers courtroom blunder about prize-money being offset against joining payment has seemed fishy/half-truth - at least to me!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

RRidges said:



			You carry on treating Norman's statements as gospel. I'll wait for something more concrete - and from the broadcaster(s). Everything I've heard/seen from those 'in the Boardroom', including the COO's supposed rebuttal of the lawyers courtroom blunder about prize-money being offset against joining payment has seemed fishy/half-truth - at least to me!
		
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Can you show me conclusive proof that prize money is deducted from signing on monies?


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## BiMGuy (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you show me conclusive proof that prize money is deducted from signing on monies?
		
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He can’t, and you can’t prove it’s not.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			He can’t, and you can’t prove it’s not.
		
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Exactly, but there is a LOT of evidence to back up the argument that it isn’t.


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you show me conclusive proof that prize money is deducted from signing on monies?
		
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Conclusive proof of either view can only be shown by seeing all the player's contracts!  
But...A LIV lawyer making the statement that he did, in court, certainly suggests, to me, that there are such clauses - even with, or even bolstered by, the COO's strangely worded 'denial'.
So feel free to have your opinion. Just don't attempt to prevent me having mine - unless you can provide the conclusive proof I've stated.


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Exactly, but there is *a LOT of evidence* to back up the argument that it isn’t.
		
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Er..What evidence?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Exactly, but there is a LOT of *hearsay* to back up the argument that it isn’t.
		
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Fixed that for ya Mel
No charge 👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559957425481998338


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## evemccc (Aug 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559957425481998338

Click to expand...


Having read Hank Haney’s book on Tiger, and being aware of Tiger’s carryings-on, I certainly wouldn’t call him a Hero nor say that I looked up to him…and he should never be seen as an arbiter of taste, decency, ethics or morality 

Very bland, weird, seemingly emotionally-stunted, boring, yet very good at golf


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 17, 2022)

Alan Shipnuck saying on The Fire Pit Podcast that he is hearing Tigers players meeting stance was more from a 
were losing too many players, monaghans stance isn't working, problem solving coexist stance than a we keep digging in.

Liv isn't going anywhere anytime soon so a solution has to be found to bring the golfing world back together.

Shipnuck says he thinks for that to happen Monaghon will have to stand down as he can't be the man to sit down at the negotiating table given his reteric up to this point.


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## evemccc (Aug 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Alan Shipnuck saying on The Fire Pit Podcast that he is hearing Tigers players meeting stance was more from a 
were losing too many players, monaghans stance isn't working, problem solving coexist stance than a we keep digging in.

Liv isn't going anywhere anytime soon so a solution has to be found to bring the golfing world back together.

Shipnuck says he thinks for that to happen Monaghon will have to stand down as he can't be the man to sit down at the negotiating table given his reteric up to this point.
		
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Probably sensible

Sounds a good podcast, I’ll give it a listen


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 17, 2022)

Alan Shipnuck commenting earlier in the day about the Liv v PGA conflict.

The importance of Cam Smith Moving regarding the majors
Tiger protecting his legacy
Jay Monaghon's short sighted strategy not working
How Liv could be a profitable annual model as soon as next year
How the team Liv element could work.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 17, 2022)

Have to laugh how Tiger is some peoples Hero now,after spending SO long criticising anything Tiger related 😬😂


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## pokerjoke (Aug 17, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Have to laugh how Tiger is some peoples Hero now,after spending SO long criticising anything Tiger related 😬😂
		
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Brilliant isn’t it,you couldn’t make it up.
I suppose that’s was hypocrites do.


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## Backsticks (Aug 17, 2022)

Tiger is a god who rose from the dead in 2018 and 2019, and silenced any doubters about his divine nature. He could walk across the pond from tee straight to green on the 16th at Augusta, but has too much respect for the tradition there of walking around it, to do so. The respect from the worlds top golfers for him is immense. They know he is on a different level to them and he commands their respect, and they will follow his guidance. His intervention is an interesting step.
Could it be that, playing days now done, he becomes even greater, as, The Saviour of Golf ?


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 17, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Brilliant isn’t it,you couldn’t make it up.
I suppose that’s was hypocrites do.
		
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GO TEAM TIGER 🙌
The 🐐,the saviour 😂😂😂


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## RichA (Aug 17, 2022)

I pity any person who's looking for role models in any area of professional sport.
He was a great golfer. That's all I think about when I think of him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			I pity any person who's looking for role models in any area of professional sport.
He was a great golfer. That's all I think about when I think of him.
		
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For some he is a golf role model and a lot of the players certainly looked up to him and how he changed the sport

For the 00’s he was the main draw for the sport and brought a lot of people to the game 

Unfortunately for many he dominated the coverage too much even when not playing well 

And then off the course he was far from anyones perfect role model


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Tiger is a god who rose from the dead in 2018 and 2019, and silenced any doubters about his divine nature. He could walk across the pond from tee straight to green on the 16th at Augusta, but has too much respect for the tradition there of walking around it, to do so. The respect from the worlds top golfers for him is immense. They know he is on a different level to them and he commands their respect, and they will follow his guidance. His intervention is an interesting step.
Could it be that, playing days now done, he becomes even greater, as, The Saviour of Golf ?
		
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Whoever taught him how to walk on water needs to teach him how to drive a car. 😂


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			I pity any person who's looking for role models in any area of professional sport.
He was a great golfer. That's all I think about when I think of him.
		
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Who should be a role model? Movie stars? Politicians? Singers? Rappers?

We are all human, even sports stars. We all have faults. Some enough to definitely set a bad example, even if it is a lot of petty faults. Although, some may even become a great role model if they are shown to learn from very bad mistakes.

Regardless of how a professional sportsperson lives their life, they could well end up being a fantastic role model for someone, who use their example to strive towards a more worthy goal than the direction they had been going in previously.

Tiger has clearly set the benchmark for many of the golfers on tour now. Most of them probably grew up wanting to be him. Practiced so much harder, to the point they are now living a life they might never have dreamed off had they not had that motivation at that time in their life. Sure, they might have got there anyway, but they'll remember Tiger being the one they looked up to at that time. 

Role models come in all shapes and sizes. If they end up giving a positive direction to someones life, I reckon that person is a good role model. I'm sure Messi, Michael Jordan, Lewis Hamilton, Andy Murray, etc have all been pretty good role models for many kids out there.


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## evemccc (Aug 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who should be a role model? Movie stars? Politicians? Singers? Rappers?
		
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To paraphrase Charles Barkley’s famous comment on role-models,  “Nope”

Inventors, scientists, parents, doctors, teachers, electricians, carpenters, emergency service staff, people who get up and go to work to provide for their children etc etc ‘should’ be role-models


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## DaveR (Aug 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who should be a role model? Movie stars? Politicians? Singers? Rappers?
		
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The Pope.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 17, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			GO TEAM TIGER 🙌
The 🐐,the saviour 😂😂😂
		
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## BiMGuy (Aug 17, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Having read Hank Haney’s book on Tiger, and being aware of Tiger’s carryings-on, I certainly wouldn’t call him a Hero nor say that I looked up to him…and he should never be seen as an arbiter of taste, decency, ethics or morality

Very bland, weird, seemingly emotionally-stunted, boring, yet very good at golf
		
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He’s many things. But boring is not one of them.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Aug 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			The Pope.
		
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## RichA (Aug 17, 2022)

evemccc said:



			To paraphrase Charles Barkley’s famous comment on role-models,  “Nope”

Inventors, scientists, parents, doctors, teachers, electricians, carpenters, emergency service staff, people who get up and go to work to provide for their children etc etc ‘should’ be role-models
		
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I would like to "Like" this many more times than the one allowed.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 17, 2022)

Patrick Reed is apparently using all this extra free time to sue Brandel Chamblee for defamation & Jay Monahan for constructive termination.  You really couldn't make this  up.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/aug/16/patrick-reed-lawsuit-defamation-brandel-chamblee


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2022)

evemccc said:



			To paraphrase Charles Barkley’s famous comment on role-models,  “Nope”

Inventors, scientists, parents, doctors, teachers, electricians, carpenters, emergency service staff, people who get up and go to work to provide for their children etc etc ‘should’ be role-models
		
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Indeed. No one ever said anyone should have just one role model. If any kid has those sorts of people in their lives, who set a good example, all the better. Very sadly, for example, I bet there are millions of kids out there that would be find many sports people infinitely better role models than their parents.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 17, 2022)

Wife works in social services, just had to move a family into a posh hotel while their home is fumigated cos the parents are scruffy buggers. 

Excellent parenting - teach your kids that if they let the house become infested with cockroaches, you will get a free holiday.


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## RRidges (Aug 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Wife works in social services, just had to move a family into a posh hotel while their home is fumigated cos the parents are scruffy buggers.

Excellent parenting - teach your kids that if they let the house become infested with cockroaches, you will get a free holiday.
		
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Er...While disturbing, though not unfamiliar to many, how is the above relevant to LIV Golf?
FWIW, I believe, from my contacts, that it's going to get much worse - or at least the vile conditions are going to be publicised much more!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Er...While disturbing, though not unfamiliar to many, how is the above relevant to LIV Golf?
FWIW, I believe, from my contacts, that it's going to get much worse - or at least the vile conditions are going to be publicised much more!
		
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If you read the post above mine it'll probably make a lot more sense Columbo.


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## Backsticks (Aug 18, 2022)

Sportspeople arent role models. Only people directly in a kids life are role models. Sportspeople, musicians, etc. are just mythical remote heros. Kids have no perspective on the real lives of elite sportsmen, and can thus take no guidance from them on how to conduct themselves.
Model their swings.


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## Jimaroid (Aug 18, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Inventors, scientists, parents, doctors, teachers, electricians, carpenters, emergency service staff, people who get up and go to work to provide for their children etc etc ‘should’ be role-models
		
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Whilst a noble thought all people have the capacity to behave badly, make terrible mistakes, willingly abuse, exploit or hurt others. 

Morals and professions aren’t hand in hand. Let’s take for example that well known doctor, Harold Shipman.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Sportspeople arent role models. Only people directly in a kids life are role models. Sportspeople, musicians, etc. are just mythical remote heros. Kids have no perspective on the real lives of elite sportsmen, and can thus take no guidance from them on how to conduct themselves.
Model their swings.
		
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Well, given this chat began with Tiger Woods was a role model to many (and this was based on Rory's comments), then you can agree is certainly not a mythical remote hero to them.

Most of them probably grew up as elite child golfers, and knew they had a very good chance of ending up in Tiger's world of pro golf. Whether they ever met him or not, he would have been very real to them. He would have been their vision of what their life could be if they could emulate any of that success. They probably trained harder, and tried to match his pure focus on the course. 

They then made it to the Tour. I am sure many have not only played with him, but also become friends. I'm sure they will look for advice. And, as Rory said,  there is only one Alpha in the room when Tiger is there, and everyone listens.

So, as much as people like to think sports people are not role models, they are wrong. Tiger is clearly a role model to them, and probably millions more that never made it. I'm guessing he was even probably some sort of role model to me, at least to the extent of influencing me into playing golf. Not life changing (or maybe, golf is a pretty big part of my social life), but probably still a positive role model in that sense. Clearly not the only one. I also have a good family, friends, had several great teachers, etc. We probably have hundreds of role models in our lives without ever really thinking of it that way. Many will be people we know, some will be people we know of but never seen. Goodness, some people might even take some positives in their lives for admiring Batman.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have a day off, HUGE fans but don't watch these races, there's no point in following the sport then.
You can't tell me they never watched all that drama in Abu Dhabi last year been the HUGE fans that they are.
		
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I think I wee’d a bit reading that 😂😂


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## RichA (Aug 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have a day off, HUGE fans but don't watch these races, there's no point in following the sport then.
You can't tell me they never watched all that drama in Abu Dhabi last year been the HUGE fans that they are.
		
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Not that different to HUGE golf fans who aren't watching LIV, of whom there are many. Is there no point in them following golf?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not that different to HUGE golf fans who aren't watching LIV, of whom there are many. Is there no point in them following golf?
		
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That is different. Huge golf fans who don't watch LIV can still watch the PGA Tour and DP World Tour, and consider them the pinnacle organisations for elite golf. LIV is simply a side show. They are huge fans of the PGA, for example, but not of LIV.

Liverpoolphil says he has huge F1 fans in the family. Racing in the Middle East in integral to the F1 calendar, so it is hard to believe that people could be huge fans of F1, yet refuse to watch those particular reason. Not impossible, but not very believable. It was also suggested, in the context, that they purely didn't watch these events because they were in the Middle East (rather than they just happened to be doing other things on those particular days). So, I did wonder, as I mentioned, if they would equally boycott watching the entire World Cup? Or, if they watch golf, have they refused to watch all main tour events ever played in the Middle East?


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## RichA (Aug 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That is different. Huge golf fans who don't watch LIV can still watch the PGA Tour and DP World Tour, and consider them the pinnacle organisations for elite golf. LIV is simply a side show. They are huge fans of the PGA, for example, but not of LIV.

Liverpoolphil says he has huge F1 fans in the family. Racing in the Middle East in integral to the F1 calendar, so it is hard to believe that people could be huge fans of F1, yet refuse to watch those particular reason. Not impossible, but not very believable. It was also suggested, in the context, that they purely didn't watch these events because they were in the Middle East (rather than they just happened to be doing other things on those particular days). So, I did wonder, as I mentioned, if they would equally boycott watching the entire World Cup? Or, if they watch golf, have they refused to watch all main tour events ever played in the Middle East?
		
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Not every human on planet Earth thinks in quite such a binary fashion. 
Fans of LIV don't believe it's "simply a sideshow". Fans of F1 are entitled to pick and choose which events they watch. There will be 22 Grand Prix this year. Missing a couple hardly makes the rest of the season unfathomable.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 18, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not every human on planet Earth thinks in quite such a binary fashion.
Fans of LIV don't believe it's "simply a sideshow". Fans of F1 are entitled to pick and choose which events they watch. There will be 22 Grand Prix this year. Missing a couple hardly makes the rest of the season unfathomable.
		
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Imagine if it was the last race of the season and a decider for the title.
Probably one of the most exciting,controversial endings ever in F1and you didn’t watch it because of where it was held.
How unfortunate.


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## RichA (Aug 18, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Imagine if it was the last race of the season and a decider for the title.
Probably one of the most exciting,controversial endings ever in F1and you didn’t watch it because of where it was held.
How unfortunate.
		
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Imagine popping into an embassy for a routine appointment and being brought out in pieces in a suitcase.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 18, 2022)

RichA said:



			Imagine popping into an embassy for a routine appointment and being brought out in pieces in a suitcase.
		
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That’s been covered


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not every human on planet Earth thinks in quite such a binary fashion.
Fans of LIV don't believe it's "simply a sideshow". Fans of F1 are entitled to pick and choose which events they watch. There will be 22 Grand Prix this year. Missing a couple hardly makes the rest of the season unfathomable.
		
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I am aware of this, but I cannot break down the thoughts of every single human being on the planet. I can only speak generally. 

However, a huge GOLF fan can be quite content watching the PGA Tour only, or any other tour of their choice. A huge golf fan is more equivalent to a huge motorsport fan. A huge motorsport fan may watch one or many of the motorsport organisations out there. However, there may be many they don't bother with. F1, Indycar, Nascar, MotoGP, Rally, etc.

A huge F1 fan, however, is very specific to a huge PGA Tour fan or a huge DP World Tour fan. Personally, if you have a HUGE F1 fan who do not watch Grand Prix's in the Middle East purely because it is in the Middle East, I find that hard to believe. At minimum, I'd question whether they are really huge fans at all. And, even if they insisted, I'd wonder why. After all, they are making a strong decision not to watch key Grand Prix's on this principal (clearly they feel incredibly strongly about this), yet they still consider themselves huge fans of an organisation that gave the green light to have these events in the Middle East in the first place.

Either way, it is hard to see a HUGE fan of F1 missing significant reasons for this reason. Whereas HUGE fans of golf generally can take or leave LIV as they so choose.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 18, 2022)

F1 is exciting? 

When did this happen 🤔


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## Beezerk (Aug 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			F1 is exciting? 

When did this happen 🤔
		
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End of last season when the race got fixed 😬


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## BrianM (Aug 18, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not that different to HUGE golf fans who aren't watching LIV, of whom there are many. Is there no point in them following golf?
		
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What absolute garbage, read and think about the context before you type 🙈


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## RichA (Aug 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What absolute garbage, read and think about the context before you type 🙈
		
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I must have missed some subtle nuance. What was the context of your assertion about specific individuals you don't know and have never met?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 18, 2022)

Well I didn’t realise people making choices and judgements was such an unbelievable concept these days


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you read the post above mine it'll probably make a lot more sense Columbo.
		
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Just one more thing....
Better that _you_ quote the post that you are 'replying' to!


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## Backsticks (Aug 18, 2022)

Any further info from the top 20 players meeting? Its the critical one. If they hold the line with pgat, then LIV is dead tour walking. And will remain a novelty act of no credibility as an early retirement champions type tour. But if the top players dont hold - I would say Smith plus any other top 20 player defecting to Saudi - then the pgat is in real trouble.  And those player who dont jump. Business as normal for them will not be possible.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 18, 2022)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-pga-tour-contract-11660744567?mod=hp_lead_pos12

Annoyingly behind a pay wall, not sure if anyone can access in full? 

key points summarised (as I understand it):
- LIV players must play all LIV events
- Requirement to wear LIV merch when competing at all Non-LIV events
- Also a $1m bonus to any LIV player who wins a major 😂
- Players are expected to assist in recruiting other golfers to join LIV

Comments on another forum indicating that the LIV contracts are considerably more restrictive than PGA Tour contracts. Think that was covered by the court case recently.

All that nonsense from players about wanting more freedom of when and where to play, etc etc - all a load of nonsense.

It’s like an MLM scheme and rather embarrassing. The juice+ of golf, if you will.


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Any further info from the top 20 players meeting? Its the critical one. If they hold the line with pgat, then LIV is dead tour walking. And will remain a novelty act of no credibility as an early retirement champions type tour. But if the top players dont hold - I would say Smith plus any other top 20 player defecting to Saudi - then the pgat is in real trouble.  And those player who dont jump. Business as normal for them will not be possible.
		
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I'm a bit puzzled why they held it now. Announcing it now, but holding it after the Fedex Play-Off Final would seem, to me, more sensible unless they are trying to prevent 'waverers' from going - a strategy I doubt would be successful. 
I don't actually believe losing a couple more - and that's on top of the expectation that Cam Smith will go - would be disastrous, but the constant 'drip', even of lower level players is probably a concern for them.
I also think Monahan has to be involved in any negotiation, though maybe not at the coalface. He's no different to Norman in either his position or what he has done to protect/further 'his' organisation, so either both or neither.


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-pga-tour-contract-11660744567?mod=hp_lead_pos12

Annoyingly behind a pay wall, not sure if anyone can access in full?

key points summarised (as I understand it):
- LIV players must play all LIV events
- *Requirement to wear LIV merch when competing at all Non-LIV events*
- Also a $1m bonus to any LIV player who wins a major 😂
- Players are expected to assist in recruiting other golfers to join LIV

Comments on another forum indicating that the LIV contracts are considerably more restrictive than PGA Tour contracts. Think that was covered by the court case recently.

All that nonsense from players about wanting more freedom of when and where to play, etc etc - all a load of nonsense.

It’s like an MLM scheme and rather embarrassing. The juice+ of golf, if you will.
		
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Re the bold bit....
Did any - apart from Patrick Reed - wear LIV kit at The Open? Or The Scottish Open? I know they were allowed to at the US Open. Poulter wasn't wearing LIV kit the shots I saw of him at The Scottish Open.


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## Slab (Aug 18, 2022)

The article I read made reference to that being a 'sample' of a LIV contract
I'd imagine only a few (lower lights) players do not have a bespoke contract, so inevitably some items will apply while other items do not


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Re the bold bit....
Did any - apart from Patrick Reed - wear LIV kit at The Open? Or The Scottish Open? I know they were allowed to at the US Open. Poulter wasn't wearing LIV kit the shots I saw of him at The Scottish Open.
		
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Honestly I have no idea. I recall seeing lots of the team branded hats etc in a lot of the LIV player’s social media accounts.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547498900269010944
Poults has the ‘Majesticks’ stuff on his sweatshirt in this clip, which if I remember rightly is one of the horrid team names?


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Honestly I have no idea. I recall seeing lots of the team branded hats etc in a lot of the LIV player’s social media accounts.

Poults has the ‘Majesticks’ stuff on his sweatshirt in this clip, which if I remember rightly is one of the horrid team names?
		
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Nothing LIV related here..
https://www.eurosport.com/golf/abrd...lenge-allowed-him-to-p_sto9025700/story.shtml

Contract breach?


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Nothing LIV related here..
https://www.eurosport.com/golf/abrd...lenge-allowed-him-to-p_sto9025700/story.shtml

Contract breach?
		
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Is that not the same “Majesticks” logo on his left arm? 
I’m not actually too bothered about the players using the branding on non-LIV events, but I do find it amusing that it seems to be a contractual obligation.


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Is that not the same “Majesticks” logo on his left arm?
I’m not actually too bothered about the players using the branding on non-LIV events, but I do find it amusing that it seems to be a contractual obligation.
		
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Ooh! Looks like one. Nice workaround by IJP.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 18, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Is that not the same “Majesticks” logo on his left arm?
I’m not actually too bothered about the players using the branding on non-LIV events, but I do find it amusing that it seems to be a contractual obligation.
		
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They’re independent contestants though, right?


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			They’re independent contestants though, right?
		
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Presuming you mean 'independent contractors', it will depend on the actual contract. Having to wear LIV gear at non-LIV events would push them towards 'employee/employed' state imo.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 18, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Presuming you mean 'independent contractors', it will depend on the actual contract. Having to wear LIV gear at non-LIV events would push them towards 'employee/employed' state imo.
		
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I did indeed. 🤦‍♂️


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 18, 2022)

Talking of Poulter I see he's back having his cake & eating it this week.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 18, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Talking of Poulter I see he's back having his cake & eating it this week. 

Click to expand...

He will not be having too much cake, as if he needs it, 7 shots off the lead.


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## Depreston (Aug 18, 2022)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ven-34-year-prison-sentence-for-using-twitter

👀


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2022)

Depreston said:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ven-34-year-prison-sentence-for-using-twitter

👀
		
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34 years in prison for using Twitter?

Now I know exactly why Liverpoolphil doesn't want to go to the Middle East


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## IainP (Aug 18, 2022)

Tricky for DP World, 4 of the top 10 ranked players in the field have LIV links. So they'll be boosting the strength of field rating which will likely benefit others.
Guess we'll find out eventually if they do want them banned, or if it was posturing for Jay's benefit. The fines (paid by LIV) may be of more benefit to the tour perhaps.


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## RRidges (Aug 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			Tricky for DP World, 4 of the top 10 ranked players in the field have LIV links. So they'll be boosting the strength of field rating which will likely benefit others.
Guess we'll find out eventually if they do want them banned, or if it was posturing for Jay's benefit. The fines (paid by LIV) may be of more benefit to the tour perhaps.
		
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My understanding, admittedly implication from news reports, was that the 'injunction' was only for The Scottish Open. Is there any documentation of the actual request and ruling? I did see it was a ruling from the Sports Resolution portion of the International Dispute Resolution Centre though.


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## Imurg (Aug 19, 2022)

The Scottish was a co-sanctioed event with the PGA..50:50 split on entries or similar.
Czech Masters is solely a DPWT event and, as LIV players haven't been banned by DPWT, they can play it....
One does wonder if the merest thought would even contemplate the possibility of entering IJP's head about playing this tournament had LIV not been around...
One suspects not.
And it would be quite amusing if, as the sole purpose of playing this week is to gain WR points, he doesn't.....


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## Imurg (Aug 19, 2022)

We'll have to wait until January 2024 for the anti-trust trial to begin......


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## BiMGuy (Aug 19, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The Scottish was a co-sanctioed event with the PGA..50:50 split on entries or similar.
Czech Masters is solely a DPWT event and, as LIV players haven't been banned by DPWT, they can play it....
One does wonder if the merest thought would even contemplate the possibility of entering IJP's head about playing this tournament had LIV not been around...
One suspects not.
And it would be quite amusing if, as the sole purpose of playing this week is to gain WR points, he doesn't.....
		
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Like Reed playing in Asia. He went down a few places 😂


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## woofers (Aug 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			34 years in prison for using Twitter?

Now I know exactly why Liverpoolphil doesn't want to go to the Middle East 

Click to expand...

Wow, actually 34 years in prison followed by a 34-year travel ban.


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## Newtonuti (Aug 19, 2022)

Imurg said:



			We'll have to wait until January 2024 for the anti-trust trial to begin......

Click to expand...

Good old US legal system!


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## RRidges (Aug 19, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			Good old US legal system!
		
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Loads of delays in the UK (and Aus for that matter) court systems too! The Wagatha Christie case took several years to get to court. And the Giggs case seems to have taken a long time to get there.
FWIW, the entire case might be redundant by 2024.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 19, 2022)

This guy is usually pretty accurate with his info.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560655263543111681


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## RRidges (Aug 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This guy is usually pretty accurate with his info.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560655263543111681

Click to expand...

Yeah, riiight! The '54' in his handle suggests they are perhaps an insider/biased!
But clock up another entry in the 'promotion count'.


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## Imurg (Aug 19, 2022)

I wonder if the 7 will have 2nd thoughts  knowing there's little likelihood of PGA gametime u til sometime in 2024..?
The size of the brown envelopes suggests possibly not...


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Yeah, riiight! The '54' in his handle suggests they are perhaps an insider/biased!
But clock up another entry in the 'promotion count'.
		
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As I say, he's usually pretty accurate with his information.


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## Backsticks (Aug 19, 2022)

New might also be that we have never heard of them. Shuffling the deck, unless the 7 are from the top 30 owgr, still leaves the Saudi tour as a feeder to the Champions tour.


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## larmen (Aug 19, 2022)

Have they done anything about the field size?

16 x 3 is an exact number of 48 slots. They could go 18 x 3 to 54 without much trouble, but are they going to four balls to sign more players?

I like shotgun starts, keeps it busy. But you can’t just add and add and add to the field.


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## JamesR (Aug 19, 2022)

larmen said:



			Have they done anything about the field size?

16 x 3 is an exact number of 48 slots. They could go 18 x 3 to 54 without much trouble, but are they going to four balls to sign more players?

I like shotgun starts, keeps it busy. But you can’t just add and add and add to the field.
		
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They’ll need A and B groups off some tees if they get too many players.


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## IainP (Aug 19, 2022)

RRidges said:



			H'mm. A bit misleading!
Ranked 91 the week before Centurion - thanks to a win in The International.
A 7th place in Japan PGA, part of the Asian tour, a couple of weeks ago helped too.
Does seem that playing well on Asian tour _can_ keep some LIV players at a level where they can get into majors. Though it will depend on how many choose that route, as the more that do, the greater 'dilution' of points for LIV players as a group.
		
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Wasn't intended to be. The oft repeated phrase was the liv players had been "dropping down the rankings all year", but acknowledge I didn't make that clear.
This whole saga has broadened my knowledge of the world game a bit. Inamori is another interesting player. Started year around 113 - 128, currently 86.
In addition to the Asian tour mentioned,  it seems the Japan tour are allowing participation, and the Australian tour recently stated they would.


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## RRidges (Aug 19, 2022)

IainP said:



			Wasn't intended to be. The oft repeated phrase was the liv players had been "dropping down the rankings all year", but acknowledge I didn't make that clear.
This whole saga has broadened my knowledge of the world game a bit. Inamori is another interesting player. Started year around 113 - 128, currently 86.
In addition to the Asian tour mentioned,  it seems the Japan tour are allowing participation, and the Australian tour recently stated they would.
		
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My comment wasn't meant as a criticise, merely a 'correction'.
Indeed, lower tours are probably keen to have high ranked or even fading stars as participants. It boosts their ratings, both from OWGR and publicity POV. It's also better for the LIV players if they can spread their attendance, though it's a fine balance between between boosting the overall rating of a tournament and diluting the points earnt by the group. And they weren't particularly successful in Singapore. Reed continued his gradual decline over the last few months, though a 7th at Charles Schwab clawed back the 2 places he lost the week before. Peter Uhlein did the best of the ones I recognise at 7th with Wade Ormsby in the same journeyman position as Reed.
Inamori certainly does seem to have potential. A couple of wins even with a few disappointing results. So streaky!


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I wonder if the 7 will have 2nd thoughts  knowing there's little likelihood of PGA gametime u til sometime in 2024..?
The size of the brown envelopes suggests possibly not...
		
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It'll depend on how their forays to Asia for OWGR points turn out. But certainly sufficient LIV income, provided it's real income, would placate them in the meantime!


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## CountLippe (Aug 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			They’ll need A and B groups off some tees if they get too many players.
		
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or, they could move to 4, but make it best 2 scores to count.  maybe "963" to spice up the finish.


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## Imurg (Aug 20, 2022)

Pat Perez has pulled out of the lawsuit citing his reason as...I didn't think it through fully......


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 20, 2022)

CountLippe said:



			or, they could move to 4, but make it best 2 scores to count.  maybe "963" to spice up the finish.
		
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Maybe they could put them out shotgun in their teams of 4 to increase the field and reinvigorate the team aspect through really seeing some team spirit on the course between players??


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

Another good option to increase field size could be to put the groups out sequentially. They could then all start on the same hole, which could be called 'the first' for example, and would easily allow around a hundred to play. A refinement for days 2 and 3 would be to have players start in reverse order of the leaderboard, which would really highten the excitement and drama at the end as the last groups finish up on  the 18th.

Its just a thought.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Another good option to increase field size could be to put the groups out sequentially. They could then all start on the same hole, which could be called 'the first' for example, and would easily allow around a hundred to play. A refinement for days 2 and 3 would be to have players start in reverse order of the leaderboard, which would really highten the excitement and drama at the end as the last groups finish up on  the 18th.

Its just a thought.
		
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Maybe they could even reduce the number of players after the second round. I'm sure there must be a way that they could "cut" the number of players for the final round.


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Another good option to increase field size could be to put the groups out sequentially. They could then all start on the same hole, which could be called 'the first' for example, and would easily allow around a hundred to play. A refinement for days 2 and 3 would be to have players start in reverse order of the leaderboard, which would really highten the excitement and drama at the end as the last groups finish up on  the 18th.

Its just a thought.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe they could even reduce the number of players after the second round. I'm sure there must be a way that they could "cut" the number of players for the final round.
		
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Far too old-fashioned ('54?) ideas!
The entire setup - 3 rounds; shotgun start; no cut; teams - is simply to be different from PGAT events. 
From memory, the tee allocations on the final day meant that the leaders after Day 2 finished on 18 on Day 3- at least at Centurion and Bedminster.


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Pat Perez has pulled out of the lawsuit citing his reason as...I didn't think it through fully......


Click to expand...

Seems a thoroughly reasonable reason to me - having read the complete SI article. He put his 'LIV team' priorities ahead of his own - to eventually play on The Champions Tour - when he signed up to the lawsuit. Who knows what non-disclosed discussions or agreements might have occurred since doing so.


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Seems a thoroughly reasonable reason to me - having read the complete SI article. He put his 'LIV team' priorities ahead of his own - to eventually play on The Champions Tour - when he signed up to the lawsuit.
		
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So confirming that some players are seeing LIV as a feed tour to the Champions tour. Midlife Limbo Tour. Its how it looks from the outside too.


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So confirming that some players are seeing LIV as a feed tour to the Champions tour. Midlife Limbo Tour. Its how it looks from the outside too.
		
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That's one way of viewing it.
I'd have considered it simply a bonus option for fading/aging PGAT players, with the Champions Tour being more a retirement option for top players.
Mid Life Limbo Tour isn't a bad way to describe it for many though. Whether they, or equivalents, will be there in a couple of years is something to be discovered. LIV's first priority was obviously to get 48 players for Centurion, so probably wasn't as selective as they might be in the future. Their obvious candidates were aging 'names' that were slipping down the rankings, but that might well change in the future.


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## IainP (Aug 20, 2022)

☝ curious, what sort of age are you two thinking of to be in the 'limbo to champions tour"?
With that tour being run by the PGA Tour, not sure that's a reliable option - maybe they hope to capture enough cash to not need to play on it ?


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## IanM (Aug 20, 2022)

I'm getting tired even reading about it now.   If you wanted out, cool, but out is out.


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			☝ curious, what sort of age are you two thinking of to be in the 'limbo to champions tour"?
With that tour being run by the PGA Tour, not sure that's a reliable option - maybe they hope to capture enough cash to not need to play on it ?
		
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Possibly. It must be a risk. But they are playing it safe and not waiting to turn 50 and so going for a semi-seniors tour, with the same effective 'retirement' from serious top flight competition in a more restricted or handicapped tournament world.
Its clearly a mix of flavours, but the most prominent grouping seems a 40 something whose best days are well behind them at the top table. Poulter, Bubba, Phil, Schwarzel. That ilk. Then there are some out and out nobodies, but presumably the goal is to discard them as they sign better quality. But there are also the few top league players like Koepka, DJ, and Reed. So its a bit like watching the pre-ChampionsTour with an occasional - Oh, there's a real golfer !


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## BTatHome (Aug 20, 2022)

Still can't understand why people care. If they really don't agree with the new tour then why would you care then some players have decided to join it?

Apparently they are all has-been and nobody players, so surely are making PGA tour better ... in which case celebrate the new LIV tour and just watch whatever you want. It really doesn't affect us at all!!


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Still can't understand why people care. If they really don't agree with the new tour then why would you care then some players have decided to join it?

Apparently they are all has-been and nobody players, so surely are making PGA tour better ... in which case celebrate the new LIV tour and just watch whatever you want. It really doesn't affect us at all!!
		
Click to expand...

It certainly hasnt made it better. The PGAT has taken a few punches. BdC, DJ, PR, and Koepka are the ones. The PGAT is the weaker for them leaving. Not fatally, but the risk is that is more leave from the top 30, then their claim to be offering without question, the world best golfers is no longer true. The centre must hold, and for the moment, just about is. Thats why last weeks meeting was important. Thats why post Fedex remainers/leavers news is critical to the future of top tier world pro golf. The worst of all worlds, is a split, with two decent but only half as good tours. So just ignoring the new tour if you dont agree with it doesnt work. The PGAT maaaay be collateral damage. That is what is being played out at the moment and why people are following it inch by inch.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*There’s only one reason those players have ‘left’ the PGA Tour - and his initials are JM*

They haven’t left have they, they’ve been kicked off by a spiteful commissioner, and a few of his cronies no doubt.
		
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That’s not the only reason they have left the Tour 

They have left the tour to join another tour because it has millions more money on offer for them and most of it is guaranteed 

You keep blaming the PGAT when this all started when Greg Norman created LIV and used a bottomless pit of money


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s not the only reason they have left the Tour

They have left the tour to join another tour because it has millions more money on offer for them and most of it is guaranteed

You keep blaming the PGAT when this all started when Greg Norman created LIV and used a bottomless pit of money
		
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So why can’t there be another tour Phil? 
You know - in addition to all the other tours that already exist? 

The division has come from the actions of the PGAT, not LIV.


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why can’t there be another tour Phil?
You know - in addition to all the other tours that already exist?

The division has come from the actions of the PGAT, not LIV.
		
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Jeez Mel
Talk about spinning stuff to your own agenda
you can’t blame the PGAT for acting in defence of its interests and that of its players

LIV are waving a big cheque book, trying to cream off a set number of elite players which would dilute PGAT events

The LIV players are making a choice about which tour to belong to and then acting all surprised when the PGAT turn round and apply sanctions.

This has more to do with Greg Norman’s long standing feud with the PGAT than it does with growing the game 

You have players like Poulter who wouldn’t normally be seen dead at the Czech Masters, there trying to grab ranking points, he is having to play more tournaments not less, it’s all smoke mirrors and wads of somebody else’s dubious cash


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why can’t there be another tour Phil?
You know - in addition to all the other tours that already exist?

The division has come from the actions of the PGAT, not LIV.
		
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There can be another Tour 🤷‍♂️ No one said there can’t be another Tour 

And LIV have created another Tour - so why are you saying there can’t be another Tour ? Aren’t LIV claiming they will have 20% of the golf market ? So they have their Tour 

And can you tell me when the division started and what triggered it ? 

Was it not first when Phil Mickleson started to recruit players offering them vast sums of money 

And then when players took those vast sums of money they left the Tour - so whose fault is that -? The players ? The PGAT or LiV ?


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## Harry Putter (Aug 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was it not first when Phil Mickleson started to recruit players offering them vast sums of money
		
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Phil is now pantomine, a comedy character.  Once a great golfer but now perfect for LIV, an exhibition golfer who rakes in the money but will never contend.  If you still want to watch his antics on LIV then good luck..


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why can’t there be another tour Phil?
You know - in addition to all the other tours that already exist?

The division has come from the actions of the PGAT, not LIV.
		
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There is no rational argument against the fact that Saudi is the disruptor here, and a bad thing for the quality of our entertainment from elite pro golf. None. There is spin, trolling, contrarianism, and the financially vested. But in no way can a genuine argument be made for the LIV venture being a force for good. There was no division until LIV turned up, so LIV is the prime mover in this topic.
The top 30 golfers are what matters, and Saudi would like to buy them. If they did, they are never going to play the contracted LIV events, and majors, and various PGAT events even if the PGAT let them.

There is only one bad guy here - Saudi Sovereign Fund, or whatever they are called and whatever prince sheik is directing it. Greg has been bought off to be the public face of an indeffensible venture, so deserves all the criticism being flung at him.

To suggest the division has come from the actions of the PGAT defies all logic. Nobody even believes you even think it so yourself Mel. Nobody is that deluded. Norman is a smart guy so even he doesnt believe it.

No LIV, no division.

(the other tours is distraction - they are no competition to the PGAT, and not a factor nor valid comparison).


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## Backsticks (Aug 20, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			Phil is now pantomine, a comedy character.  Once a great golfer but now perfect for LIV, an exhibition golfer who rakes in the money but will never contend.  If you still want to watch his antics on LIV then good luck..
		
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I think is a bad choice actually, and surprised they went so hard for him. BdC, DJ and Smith and the likes are required to make it credible golf. Having Phil on board seriously torpedos that tour as valid competition. It is pantomime exhibition golf as they have it at the moment. But I cant believe that is what they set out to do. It would have better prospects without Phil. He is a sort of honorary Masters starter figure. But at least they know only to play the first hole and retire.


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## Harry Putter (Aug 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think is a bad choice actually, and surprised they went so hard for him. BdC, DJ and Smith and the likes are required to make it credible golf. Having Phil on board seriously torpedos that tour as valid competition. It is pantomime exhibition golf as they have it at the moment. But I cant believe that is what they set out to do. It would have better prospects without Phil. He is a sort of honorary Masters starter figure. But at least they know only to play the first hole and retire.
		
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It sums up LIV golf.. it's exhibition and nobody really cares whether they win or lose.. it will have it's time then will end.


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			☝ curious, what sort of age are you two thinking of to be in the 'limbo to champions tour"?
With that tour being run by the PGA Tour, not sure that's a reliable option - maybe they hope to capture enough cash to not need to play on it ?
		
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Mid to late 40s. At 50, they can then either decide to continue, retire or, if the option is available, go to Champions Tour.


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			Still can't understand why people care. If they really don't agree with the new tour then why would you care then some players have decided to join it?
		
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Because it reduces the quality of the tours from which they've jumped!


BTatHome said:



			Apparently they are all has-been and nobody players, so surely are making PGA tour better ... in which case celebrate the new LIV tour and just watch whatever you want. It really doesn't affect us at all!!
		
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That statemen is blatantly rubbish!
The fact that they still qualify for the appropriate tour shows that, while they are no longer the same quality they used to be, they are still better than those who would step into their places!


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The division has come from the actions of the PGAT, not LIV.
		
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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

IanM said:



			I'm getting tired even reading about it now.
		
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Then don't!


IanM said:



			If you wanted out, cool, but out is out.
		
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Agreed!


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## IainP (Aug 20, 2022)

Have posted before, was no surprise how the PGAT reacted, and hard to blame them.
IMO they were homing in on their goal of the PGA Tour & the Korn Ferry Tour being the top 2 tours on the planet. With PGAT University, and the Champions Tour, they were close to 'completing' professional golf. Then the thorn arrived. 
That said, it's easy to find a fact like - with 23 current sanctioned tours, only one has bans in place (I believe).
Soap opera 😉


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

So the new PGA Tour plan from the players meeting is to have 18 new tournament tour within the tour for the 60 best players with no cut. 

Thought it wasn't a proper golf tournament If there is no history and no cut? 

So 18 of them and 4 majors will be 22 tournaments a year. 
This will ultimately lead to weaker fields in the Marquee historic events that were supposed to be the jewell in the PGA Tours crown? 

Also PGA Tour starts paying taxes so it can bring in private equity investment. 

All makes sense to compete with Liv. 

I think long term a long way down the line because players will chase the money you will have 2 big tours playing for huge purses with no cut where the players are guaranteed big payouts regardless of performance so essentially this route results in 2 exhibition tours?

https://firepitcollective.com/tigers-secret-meeting/


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So the new PGA Tour plan from the players meeting is to have 18 new tournament tour within the tour for the 60 best players with no cut.

Thought it wasn't a proper golf tournament If there is no history and no cut?

So 18 of them and 4 majors will be 22 tournaments a year.
This will ultimately lead to weaker fields in the Marquee historic events that were supposed to be the jewell in the PGA Tours crown?

Also PGA Tour starts paying taxes so it can bring in private equity investment.

All makes sense to compete with Liv.

I think long term a long way down the line because players will chase the money you will have 2 big tours playing for huge purses with no cut where the players are guaranteed big payouts regardless of performance so essentially this route results in 2 exhibition tours?

https://firepitcollective.com/tigers-secret-meeting/

Click to expand...

Looks like just another money grab to combat a money grab - both are looking like just wanting to get rich guys richer 

Only positive is there will be spots on the PGAT for young up and coming players 

None of this is good for golf , none of it is good for the fans - it’s only good for those at the top of the game. 

It’s disappointing to see the PGAT react this way , they should have faith in their product , the majority of players know the tours are the way to the majors - market that not creating more money


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## Backsticks (Aug 21, 2022)

The money from Saudi is just too big. Good move from the pgat to increase its fire power.
And majors are no defence. The PGAT has none, and all four will always ensure they have the worlds best golfers in the field regardless of what tour they are on.
So accessing big money is the route. Both capitalist, and patriotic, corporate America, will row in behind the PGAT Id say. They dont have to match Saudi - just bridge the gap a bit. The bad vibes of Saudi association will do the rest to make it worthwhile staying USA.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 21, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Jeez Mel
Talk about spinning stuff to your own agenda
you can’t blame the PGAT for acting in defence of its interests and that of its players

LIV are waving a big cheque book, trying to cream off a set number of elite players which would dilute PGAT events

The LIV players are making a choice about which tour to belong to and then acting all surprised when the PGAT turn round and apply sanctions.

This has more to do with Greg Norman’s long standing feud with the PGAT than it does with growing the game

You have players like Poulter who wouldn’t normally be seen dead at the Czech Masters, there trying to grab ranking points, he is having to play more tournaments not less, it’s all smoke mirrors and wads of somebody else’s dubious cash
		
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How have they acted in defence of their own interests? - they've lost multiple big name players to another tour - and instead of attempting to keep them, they've shut the door on them - why did Monaghan never take up Normans offer to speak with them about working together? Why didn't he take the call and negotiate to release players possibly on a limited number of LIV events agreement - so they could still compete on the PGA Tour?

You do realise, that there was perhaps a solution which allowed all the players to get a chance of the LIV money, on a limited event basis, and still being part of the PGA or other tours?

Greg Norman may have a feud with the PGA, but seriously, most people are enjoying LIV for what it is - and won't even give a toss about Gregg Normans agenda, it may well be an issue for him, but personally, I couldn't care less, and I suspect there are plenty more like me.


Let's see just what transpires from that players meeting, but it's already looking like the PLAYERS are wanting changes made which align with what LIV are offering.


Whether people like it or not, the LIV series will be here to stay, and it's in everybodies interests to find a way for ALL the tours to benefit from the extra golf that will be on offer - if you can tell me how Monaghan and the PGAT expect to do that by simply closing their door - I'm all ears.....


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

[QUOTE="Liverpoolphil, post: 2538251, member: 15344"
It’s disappointing to see the PGAT react this way , they should have faith in their product , the majority of players know the tours are the way to the majors - market that not creating more money[/QUOTE]

Spot On, its the historic events that are the PGA Tours strength so don't neglect and weaken them. 
Everyone can nitpick but essentially this plan creates a Liv Tour within the PGA Tour.

So they are proposing to create something they and all of their core supporters have criticised as not proper golf..

Yes stop being non profit, yes bring in the private equity investment,yes increase the purses but in the historic PGA Events and give missed cut players a pay day so they cover expenses and make a few quid.


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## evemccc (Aug 21, 2022)

The YouTube interview of Shipnuck that somebody linked to a week or so ago, was a really good listen

It does sound like that LIV are planning to do some kind of IPL (cricket) thing with the franchises….whether it comes off or not is another thing entirely, but at least it makes more sense than the current LIV teams do


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How have they acted in defence of their own interests? - they've lost multiple big name players to another tour - and instead of attempting to keep them, they've shut the door on them - why did Monaghan never take up Normans offer to speak with them about working together? Why didn't he take the call and negotiate to release players possibly on a limited number of LIV events agreement - so they could still compete on the PGA Tour?

You do realise, that there was perhaps a solution which allowed all the players to get a chance of the LIV money, on a limited event basis, and still being part of the PGA or other tours?

Greg Norman may have a feud with the PGA, but seriously, most people are enjoying LIV for what it is - and won't even give a toss about Gregg Normans agenda, it may well be an issue for him, but personally, I couldn't care less, and I suspect there are plenty more like me.


Let's see just what transpires from that players meeting, but it's already looking like the PLAYERS are wanting changes made which align with what LIV are offering.


Whether people like it or not, the LIV series will be here to stay, and it's in everybodies interests to find a way for ALL the tours to benefit from the extra golf that will be on offer - if you can tell me how Monaghan and the PGAT expect to do that by simply closing their door - I'm all ears.....
		
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It’s only in LIV interest for the tours to work together 

All the other tours have worked together for decades until LIV came along

Do you really absolve any issues from LIV and put it all firmly on the shoulders of PGAT ?

Can you tell me what the issue with golf was this time last year and how many social media accounts were posting complaining about it all


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s only in LIV interest for the tours to work together

All the other tours have worked together for decades until LIV came along

Do you really absolve any issues from LIV and put it all firmly on the shoulders of PGAT ?

Can you tell me what the issue with golf was this time last year and how many social media accounts were posting complaining about it all
		
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No I don't resolve any issues from LIV, they have given something for the PGAT to think about, golf is changing it clearly needed to change, the PGAT is having to react to the demand for change caused by LIV. So what was the issue with golf this time last year - well that's pretty clear, it was dominated and monoplolised by pretty much one product, based predominantly in one country.

Let me tell you, I watched pretty much zero proffesional golf last year barring the odd highlights reel - since LIV came along, I've watched loads, even taking in more of the PGA tours and majors. So tell me, how is that bad for golf?


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The YouTube interview of Shipnuck that somebody linked to a week or so ago, was a really good listen

It does sound like that LIV are planning to do some kind of IPL (cricket) thing with the franchises….whether it comes off or not is another thing entirely, but at least it makes more sense than the current LIV teams do
		
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That was me and yes everyone should listen to this to understand Livs big picture.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I don't resolve any issues from LIV, they have given something for the PGAT to think about, golf is changing it clearly needed to change, the PGAT is having to react to the demand for change caused by LIV. So what was the issue with golf this time last year - well that's pretty clear, it was dominated and monoplolised by pretty much one product, based predominantly in one country.

Let me tell you, I watched pretty much zero proffesional golf last year barring the odd highlights reel - since LIV came along, I've watched loads, even taking in more of the PGA tours and majors. So tell me, how is that bad for golf?
		
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Is there a script that all the LIV bots etc are given ?

It’s just a replica of everything read on social media - monopoly ( yet it isn’t ) , dominated in one country ( liv events in the same country ) 
and then constantly critical of the PGAT - the same tour that has helped create the players that they are looking to poach 

So you had zero interest in watching golf and now because of LIV you watch - what shout people that have switched off because of it ? The guys that are appalled by the funding - the amount and where it’s come from  - that’s put people off the sport 

Read your posts - there isn’t one critical post of LIV with everything being put onto the same PGAT that LIV players and fans wanted to leave 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there a script that all the LIV bots etc are given ?

It’s just a replica of everything read on social media - monopoly ( yet it isn’t ) , dominated in one country ( liv events in the same country )
and then constantly critical of the PGAT - the same tour that has helped create the players that they are looking to poach

So you had zero interest in watching golf and now because of LIV you watch - what shout people that have switched off because of it ? The guys that are appalled by the funding - the amount and where it’s come from  - that’s put people off the sport

Read your posts - there isn’t one critical post of LIV with everything being put onto the same PGAT that LIV players and fans wanted to leave 🤷‍♂️
		
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Lol, so I'm a LIV bot am I, and so by default, you accept you are a PGA bot then?

How much criticising of the PGA have I done, of their actual events? I've criticised their stance - that's it. I've made a pretty detailed explanation on this thread about the money and source of it on the LIV series. You accuse me of being one sided (which I am) without seeing the hypocrisy that you take the exact opposite stance as I do - it all forms part of the debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			The YouTube interview of Shipnuck that somebody linked to a week or so ago, was a really good listen

It does sound like that LIV are planning to do some kind of IPL (cricket) thing with the franchises….whether it comes off or not is another thing entirely, but at least it makes more sense than the current LIV teams do
		
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The franchise is going to be a tough sell in an individual sport - they were talking £1bn to buy a team - it’s just not going to work imo


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I don't resolve any issues from LIV, they have given something for the PGAT to think about, golf is changing it clearly needed to change, the PGAT is having to react to the demand for change caused by LIV. So what was the issue with golf this time last year - well that's pretty clear, it was dominated and monoplolised by pretty much one product, based predominantly in one country.

Let me tell you, I watched pretty much zero proffesional golf last year barring the odd highlights reel - since LIV came along, I've watched loads, even taking in more of the PGA tours and majors. So tell me, how is that bad for golf?
		
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Mel you never acknowledge any plus points of the PGA Tour for the game of golf  of which there are plenty.

Yes Liv is bringing something different to the table that some like and some don't like, I'm more in the like than dislike but the PGA Tour still has a lot of important plus points that need to be retained for the greater good of the game.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The franchise is going to be a tough sell in an individual sport - they were talking £1bn to buy a team - it’s just not going to work imo
		
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I heard more recently 50-100m per team and the teams are going to be more countries/continent based.

All makes more sense as Golfers in said countries who LIKE Liv will identify with their team..
So South African fans will get behind The Stingers.
South Americans will get behind Ortiz, Ancer, Nieman and Mito Pereira (both rumoured to be switching)
I think Majestics will swap out Stenson for Casey to have an all English Team
Etc etc


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## fenwayrich (Aug 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I don't resolve any issues from LIV, they have given something for the PGAT to think about, golf is changing it clearly needed to change, the PGAT is having to react to the demand for change caused by LIV. So what was the issue with golf this time last year - well that's pretty clear, it was dominated and monoplolised by pretty much one product, based predominantly in one country.

Let me tell you, I watched pretty much zero proffesional golf last year barring the odd highlights reel - since LIV came along, I've watched loads, even taking in more of the PGA tours and majors. So tell me, how is that bad for golf?
		
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So you didn't previously have any interest in watching the likes of Collin Morikawa, John Rahm, Rory McIlroy and Justin Thomas, but inspired by a bunch of has beens and journeymen playing irrelevant exhibition events for bucket loads of dirty money, you are now an avid golf viewer? How strange.

I've been a golf fanatic since I first visited the Dunlop Masters at Ganton in 1975 (Bernard Gallacher won it!). I still look at it most Sunday evenings on Sky, and will continue to do so. The 54 tour is parody of our great game, so I'll give that a miss.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, so I'm a LIV bot am I, and so by default, you accept you are a PGA bot then?

How much criticising of the PGA have I done, of their actual events? I've criticised their stance - that's it. I've made a pretty detailed explanation on this thread about the money and source of it on the LIV series. You accuse me of being one sided (which I am) without seeing the hypocrisy that you take the exact opposite stance as I do - it all forms part of the debate.
		
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I’m not a massive fan of the PGAT and if you had been around before LIV was invented you would have seen many on here including me have been very critical of the PGAT 

But you take the defence of LIV to the extreme - you can’t see any negative at all , the issues with GN , players suing tours and suing commentators and media channels - and can’t see all the good stuff the PGAT has done over decades for the sport


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## JamesR (Aug 21, 2022)

Golf is a meritocracy, the best players move to the top tour. 
They start on different, lower level, tours around the globe, and then promote to the top table if they are good enough.

LIV is the equivalent of medals for participation. They’ve been handing out starts and money to nobodies, who haven’t yet earned their stripes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I heard more recently 50-100m per team and the teams are going to be more countries/continent based.

All makes more sense as Golfers in said countries who LIKE Liv will identify with their team..
So South African fans will get behind The Stingers.
South Americans will get behind Ortiz, Ancer, Nieman and Mito Pereira (both rumoured to be switching)
I think Majestics will swap out Stenson for Casey to have an all English Team
Etc etc
		
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It’s a tough sport to try and create team ethos and support  - the likes of IPL etc just had to add the teams as the support was already there - it helps it’s all concentrated into one country and using cities 

The hundred has had mixed reception with many cricket fans turning off

It works when it comes to the Ryder Cup as it’s historic and two big nations going at each other for one week every two years - even the Presidents Cup doesn’t really grab much interest and that can’t create the same rivalry as the RC


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a tough sport to try and create team ethos and support  - the likes of IPL etc just had to add the teams as the support was already there - it helps it’s all concentrated into one country and using cities 

The hundred has had mixed reception with many cricket fans turning off

It works when it comes to the Ryder Cup as it’s historic and two big nations going at each other for one week every two years - even the Presidents Cup doesn’t really grab much interest and that can’t create the same rivalry as the RC
		
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I honestly can in time (and it does need time) see it working and giving an extra dynamic to a golf event


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## RRidges (Aug 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I honestly can in time (and it does need time) see it working and giving an extra dynamic to a golf event
		
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I hope it doesn't! 
It's currently, by a long distance, the worst part of the concept! I have expected some sort of enhancement to the concept, as a way of gaining legitimate/non-Saudi funding, for a while now. But, to me, it'll only mean that announcers mention team scores even more than they currently do - which I already detest!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I honestly can in time (and it does need time) see it working and giving an extra dynamic to a golf event
		
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In theory people support their country etc but these teams won’t be “country based” as such- there will be a team from Japan or Aus etc but how many Us players or English players etc - and then the names they have come up with , just horrific. Team sports have a lot of tribalism etc attached to it and people associate with local teams or support teams that family members etc - starting all that from scratch it’s a tough ask


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## Backsticks (Aug 21, 2022)

The team schtick is the single worst idea Saudi Tour has had. 

Golf isnt a team game ! Stop trying to make Teams happen LIV !

.......In a way I like that they have it though........its great for having a laugh at LIVs cluelessness......it is the indisputable indicator of how disconnected from golf they really are. Probably dreamt up by a sheik. The rubbish names are just a bonus. With all the money behind it, how could they come up with something_* that*_  bad ?????


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## RRidges (Aug 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The team schtick is the single worst idea Saudi Tour has had.

Golf isnt a team game ! Stop trying to make Teams happen LIV !

.......In a way I like that they have it though........its great for having a laugh at LIVs cluelessness......it is the indisputable indicator of how disconnected from golf they really are. Probably dreamt up by a sheik. The rubbish names are just a bonus. With all the money behind it, how could they come up with something_* that*_  bad ?????
		
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And the scoring format is rubbish too - only best 2 counting on days 1&2 and 1 getting a reprieve for not playing well on day 3!


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## Backsticks (Aug 21, 2022)

RRidges said:



			And the scoring format is rubbish too - only best 2 counting on days 1&2 and 1 getting a reprieve for not playing well on day 3!
		
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Thanks, I didnt even know the scoring, but that is woeful. The whole team thing must be a great embarrassment to all who have to push it, whether players, commentators, Greg. They know its farcical, but have to suspend belief to try to stick to the party line. The eye rolling in the commentary booth must be terrific.


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## RRidges (Aug 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thanks, I didnt even know the scoring, but that is woeful. The whole team thing must be a great embarrassment to all who have to push it, whether players, commentators, Greg. They know its farcical, but have to suspend belief to try to stick to the party line. The eye rolling in the commentary booth must be terrific.
		
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It'll still get pushed as the bees knees, as it a differentiator from other Tours - in fact the only really significant differentiator! But it's actually the very worst part of the setup! They'll still push it as though it's a great feature and they might even be successful - but, to me, that simply demonstrates how the 'promotion' of a flawed product can turn it into a success in some environments and enough clout. Not for me!


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## Backsticks (Aug 21, 2022)

But NOBODY is buying Saudi team golf. Its a pathetic joke. Its not that some like it some dont. Or might grow in to something. Its the greatest load of nonsense in golf since square drivers.


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## RRidges (Aug 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But NOBODY is buying Saudi team golf. Its a pathetic joke. Its not that some like it some dont. Or might grow in to something. Its the greatest load of nonsense in golf since square drivers.
		
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I agree! But I have no doubt there will be buyers! Whether such deals will sweeten associated deals with Saudis is a different issue, but that's apparently how lots of dealing is done at that level!


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## Crow (Aug 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The team schtick is the single worst idea Saudi Tour has had.

Golf isnt a team game ! Stop trying to make Teams happen LIV !

.......In a way I like that they have it though........its great for having a laugh at LIVs cluelessness......it is the indisputable indicator of how disconnected from golf they really are. Probably dreamt up by a sheik. The rubbish names are just a bonus. With all the money behind it, how could they come up with something_* that*_  bad ?????
		
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And yet many people see the Ryder Cup as golf's most entertaining event of the year (when it's on).


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## RRidges (Aug 21, 2022)

Crow said:



			And yet many people see the Ryder Cup as golf's most entertaining event of the year (when it's on).
		
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The completely different - matchplay - arrangement is what makes the difference for me. And I'm pretty much neutral on the actual result!
The combination of singles _and_ team format - with not all scores counting - is rubbish imo.


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## howbow88 (Aug 22, 2022)

Crow said:



			And yet many people see the Ryder Cup as golf's most entertaining event of the year (when it's on).
		
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But the teams actually sort of mean something there. I always think that the closest pro sport you can compare golf to is tennis. They're both individual sports with 4 big tournaments a year, and the rest of it most people don't really care about. And there is 1 main team version of the game in tennis in the Davis Cup, where people play for their country. Obviously in golf you have the Ryder Cup, President's Cup and Solheim Cup where players play for their nation/continent. 

You can't just manufacture this team element when the teams mean absolutely nothing to begin with, imo.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 22, 2022)

Crow said:



			And yet many people see the Ryder Cup as golf's most entertaining event of the year (when it's on).
		
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Probably because they actually represent something that exists, as most sports teams do; a country, a city, a county, something that people can relate to or have an affinity with.  What do the LIV teams represent, beyond sticking two fingers up at the PGA Tour?


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 22, 2022)

Wonder when we are going to hear from Jay Monaghon about the players idea to create a 18 tournament big purse no cut Liv Tour within the PGA Tour??

Do the hierarchy of the PGA Tour have enough faith in their product and history to refuse the players idea.
Their job is to look after their members so it could cause a bigger rift with the top players if they did? 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...l&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Probably because they actually represent something that exists, as most sports teams do; a country, a city, a county, something that people can relate to or have an affinity with.  What do the LIV teams represent, beyond sticking two fingers up at the PGA Tour?
		
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Have you failed to notice that some of the teams are already representing the countries or areas of the players that are in them?


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## Crow (Aug 22, 2022)

RRidges said:



			The completely different - matchplay - arrangement is what makes the difference for me. And I'm pretty much neutral on the actual result!
The combination of singles _and_ team format - with not all scores counting - is rubbish imo.
		
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howbow88 said:



			But the teams actually sort of mean something there. I always think that the closest pro sport you can compare golf to is tennis. They're both individual sports with 4 big tournaments a year, and the rest of it most people don't really care about. And there is 1 main team version of the game in tennis in the Davis Cup, where people play for their country. Obviously in golf you have the Ryder Cup, President's Cup and Solheim Cup where players play for their nation/continent.

You can't just manufacture this team element when the teams mean absolutely nothing to begin with, imo.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			Probably because they actually represent something that exists, as most sports teams do; a country, a city, a county, something that people can relate to or have an affinity with.  What do the LIV teams represent, beyond sticking two fingers up at the PGA Tour?
		
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I was quoting a post that said golf isn't a team game.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you failed to notice that some of the teams are already representing the countries or areas of the players that are in them?
		
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No I haven’t failed to notice that some of the teams have been contrived to contain players from the same country, which is not necessarily the same as representing the country. 

I also haven’t failed to notice that by definition, if only some of them are representing a country or area, then some of them are not and therefore people are unlikely to have an affiliation with them, as per the original point.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			No I haven’t failed to notice that some of the teams have been contrived to contain players from the same country, which is not necessarily the same as representing the country.

I also haven’t failed to notice that by definition, if only some of them are representing a country or area, then some of them are not and therefore people are unlikely to have an affiliation with them, as per the original point.
		
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Well your original point was that the teams exist to stick two fingers up to the PGA tour, which has absolutely no correlation to what you’ve just said.


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## sweaty sock (Aug 22, 2022)

PGA seem to be prompted into action by the players, Amybody think the proposal will be enacted, or enough?


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## evemccc (Aug 22, 2022)

Crow said:



			I was quoting a post that said golf isn't a team game.
		
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Cycling, like golf, seems to be an individual sport but professional cycling is team-based…teams are massively important in an individual’s success in winning the Tour de France

Personnel change yearly, sponsors change yearly, teams are not really nation-based


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			PGA seem to be prompted into action by the players, Amybody think the proposal will be enacted, or enough?
		
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I think it’s hard to judge until we actually see the proposals in full and from the right source 

Right now it’s a lot of rumours etc and I hope a lot of the changes made don’t happen as they don’t improve the game for us and only appear to make rich golfers richer


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## Backsticks (Aug 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Cycling, like golf, seems to be an individual sport but professional cycling is team-based…teams are massively important in an individual’s success in winning the Tour de France

Personnel change yearly, sponsors change yearly, teams are not really nation-based
		
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Cycling is a good example actually. Nobody supports a team in cycling. Individuals bemefit from the help of a strong team. But that is not the case in golf. Its entirely individual what you will score.
Bahrain victorious, or Bora, etc are a means of advertising. It adds nothing for fans, and fans have no affiliation to a team. Even Sky / Ineos with British ryders doing well was about the individuals, not the team.
Golf is even further distant from having team relevance. Nobody is ever going to decide they support the Nibblicks or whatever.
Its a mistake the Saudi will quietly bury if they get running in real golf.

For the moment though, its a good laugh.


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## IainP (Aug 22, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Wonder when we are going to hear from Jay Monaghon about the players idea to create a 18 tournament big purse no cut Liv Tour within the PGA Tour??

Do the hierarchy of the PGA Tour have enough faith in their product and history to refuse the players idea.
Their job is to look after their members so it could cause a bigger rift with the top players if they did?

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pg...l&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest

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It's pretty much gossip currently,  but would be interested to know if it's 18 stops in the USA, or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2022)

This guy is very good - very balanced and seems to have his finger on the pulse a bit more 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561651554620280832


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## Newtonuti (Aug 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you failed to notice that some of the teams are already representing the countries or areas of the players that are in them?
		
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I'm fairly sure that as players get relegated/promoted, these teams will fail to represent actually nations anymore.


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## sweaty sock (Aug 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it’s hard to judge until we actually see the proposals in full and from the right source

Right now it’s a lot of rumours etc and I hope a lot of the changes made don’t happen as they don’t improve the game for us and only appear to make rich golfers richer
		
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Not as rich as LIV though, and the new priposals seem like copying LIV. 

Some positives, 
Minor tour structure to support relegation and promotion, 
Potential to add interest to 'lesser' events, some success elsewhere i.e. Rolex series on the European tour. 

Negatives
Just the same as LIV but with less money
Will the reduced feilds etc mean its harder to exclude LIV from majors/OWGR.

Be interesting to see how long a proposal takes...


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			Not as rich as LIV though, and the new priposals seem like copying LIV.

Some positives,
Minor tour structure to support relegation and promotion,
Potential to add interest to 'lesser' events, some success elsewhere i.e. Rolex series on the European tour.

Negatives
Just the same as LIV but with less money
Will the reduced feilds etc mean its harder to exclude LIV from majors/OWGR.

Be interesting to see how long a proposal takes...
		
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A lot of it right now is unknown as it’s all just rumour 

Not a far of creating more elite comps with more money 

As for the OWGR and LIV

They have a good number of hurdles to get through yet


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## RRidges (Aug 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you failed to notice that some of the teams are already representing the countries or areas of the players that are in them?
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			No I haven’t failed to notice that some of the teams have been contrived to contain players from the same country, which is not necessarily the same as representing the country.

I also haven’t failed to notice that by definition, if only some of them are representing a country or area, then some of them are not and therefore people are unlikely to have an affiliation with them, as per the original point.
		
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Mel Smooth said:



			Well your original point was that the teams exist to stick two fingers up to the PGA tour, which has absolutely no correlation to what you’ve just said.
		
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An unbelievably daft set of reasoning that suggests, to me, that the team concept isn't even believed in by LIV advocates!


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## Backsticks (Aug 22, 2022)

Nobody believes the team thing has a future. Id say even the paid LIV advocates are wishing it would go away. They just come across as fools when trying to defend it.


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## RRidges (Aug 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This guy is very good - very balanced and seems to have his finger on the pulse a bit more


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561651554620280832

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Yet contradicts virtually every one of his 'in the know' predictions from a few hours earlier! Finger on a pulse maybe. But lilely different patients from the one that matters (ones that matter)!


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## BiMGuy (Aug 22, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Yet contradicts virtually every one of his 'in the know' predictions from a few hours earlier! Finger on a pulse maybe. But lilely different patients from the one that matters (ones that matter)!
		
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What’s the saying?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day? 

Make enough predictions and you are bound to get somewhere near to being right. Then with a bit of spin people like our Mel will believe and spread every word like it’s gospel.


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## RRidges (Aug 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Nobody believes the team think has a future. Id say even the paid LIV advocates are wishing it would go away. They just come across as fools when trying to defend it.
		
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I'm sure there'll be a funding aspect to the team concept that has yet to be announced - as it's likely still being formulated/negotiated. Once that is in place, then there's some, albeit skewed, logic to the format - as, currently, LIV is simply a massive complete drag on, admittedly massive, PIF funds. There _will_ be a plan for some sort of earnings to offset at least some of that drag.


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## IainP (Aug 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A lot of it right now is unknown as it’s all just rumour

Not a far of creating more elite comps with more money

As for the OWGR and LIV

They have a good number of hurdles to get through yet

View attachment 43961

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Nice, I've being wanting to have sight of those "rules & governance" for a bit.
Whilst it is still gossip, it sounds like the new PGA T plans as currently speculated might also fall fowl of some of those. Interesting times.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 22, 2022)

IainP said:



			Nice, I've being wanting to have sight of those "rules & governance" for a bit.
Whilst it is still gossip, it sounds like the new PGA T plans as currently speculated might also fall fowl of some of those. Interesting times.
		
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Yep - I’m not sure if it’s about averaging out over the season because the WGCs already have no cut and small field etc


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## RRidges (Aug 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As for the OWGR and LIV

They have a good number of hurdles to get through yet

View attachment 43961

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Those seem pretty fundamental issues, which would mean that LIV would need to make fundamental changes - in fact, becoming like all other tours - in order to comply!
I can't see that happening, so something would have to change.
The effect of any more LIV recruits that occur after FedEx could be interesting - though with, supposedly, a full crew for the rest of this year and 2023 in place (the silence of 'rejects' might have been bought) it'll be interesting to see who is at LIV Boston, unsurprisingly scheduled for the week after the Tour Championship with, no doubt, announcements very soon after that tournament ends.
Now, where's Mel with the reassurance that either the rules will change or LIV will comply with them so the LIV circus can be awarded OWGR points?


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## Backsticks (Aug 23, 2022)

I dont think the ranking points are an issue. The majors will just have another strand to qualify, like they do for amateurs. Anyone on LiV who 'wins' for example. Or top 10 LiV players if there is a money list or table. With those, plus major winners, it will ensure any players that should be there, are there.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Those seem pretty fundamental issues, which would mean that LIV would need to make fundamental changes - in fact, becoming like all other tours - in order to comply!
I can't see that happening, so something would have to change.
The effect of any more LIV recruits that occur after FedEx could be interesting - though with, supposedly, a full crew for the rest of this year and 2023 in place (the silence of 'rejects' might have been bought) it'll be interesting to see who is at LIV Boston, unsurprisingly scheduled for the week after the Tour Championship with, no doubt, announcements very soon after that tournament ends.
Now, where's Mel with the reassurance that either the rules will change or LIV will comply with them so the LIV circus can be awarded OWGR points?
		
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Are OWGR points getting awarded at this weekends Tour championship?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are OWGR points getting awarded at this weekends Tour championship?
		
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Yes why wouldn’t they ?


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are OWGR points getting awarded at this weekends Tour championship?
		
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Indeed they are - 80 points minimum from what I understand.
Why do you ask - as I'm sure you know they are anyway?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are OWGR points getting awarded at this weekends Tour championship?
		
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Yeah. The Tour Championship is part of a "legitimate" tour, and the players playing on it qualified to be on it by playing well throughout the year, and over the last few weeks. It would be very strange if they did not offer world ranking points.

Conversely, if I asked about 45 of my mates to play in a tournament, but also managed to get Bryson, Phil and Brooks to play, offering World Ranking points would seem a bizarre decision. Sure, I'd happily accept some world ranking points for finishing 4th, simply based on the fact that those 3 were playing in the field. But, I'd feel a bit of a fraud.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Indeed they are - 80 points minimum from what I understand.
Why do you ask - as I'm sure you know they are anyway?
		
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Is there a cut?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is there a cut?
		
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No but you already know that and you know why it has ranking points


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 23, 2022)

Are the ranking points awarded for gross score event or the handicapped event?


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## IainP (Aug 23, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Are the ranking points awarded for gross score event or the handicapped event?
		
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They do it on the unadjusted
Here's last years
https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9247


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is there a cut?
		
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There's already been 2 (or effectively 3) cuts in order to get into this tournament.
As it's the OWGR that decides which tours and tournaments qualify - and they have certainly done so - I suggest you direct further questions to them!
Edit: Found this article that might help slightly. https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnews...king-points-with-separate-leaderboard-113031/


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			There's already been 2 (or maybe 3) cuts in order to get into this tournament.
As it's the OWGR that decides which tours and tournaments qualify, i suggest you direct further questions to them!
		
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So it’s a no cut event. 

Precedent set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. 👍


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## IainP (Aug 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Indeed they are - 80 points minimum from what I understand.
Why do you ask - as I'm sure you know they are anyway?
		
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It is the players that is specially fixed to 80.
Was 51 points last year. but down to 38 points this year.


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So it’s a no cut event.

Precedent set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. 👍
		
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Perhaps for a (LIV) Grand Final, as the Tour Champs _series_ is. But not when every tournament is a no-cut one!


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			It is the players that is specially fixed to 80.
Was 51 points last year. but down to 38 points this year.
		
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Yeah, Ta. I was puzzled when I found the reference to 80 - now 'lost'. That's why the 'I  understand' disclaimer!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So it’s a no cut event.

*Precedent* set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. 👍
		
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Sadly, there is no precedent set for LIV. But , I know deep down you are aware of that.

The players in the TOUR Championship all had to qualify to get there. And, they did so by playing well in multiple other events that also qualify for World Ranking Points. And, they needed to get their PGA Tour Card to qualify for all those events.

Obviously, this is not the same as LIV. Not even close. Forget individual events, the entire Tour is invitation only, with every event limited fields and no cuts.


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## IainP (Aug 23, 2022)

As the subject is the PGAT Tour Championship, I find the stats quite interesting:

2021 - Going into the event, 4 players were outside the top 30 ranked, the highest being 55
2022 - Going into the event, 9 players were outside the top 30 ranked, the highest being 61

As mentioned above:
Winning points     2021 51 points,  2022 38 points
Strength of Field   2021  538 , 2022 187           (probably some is the effect of the new SoF rules)

2021 - https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9247
2022 - https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9675


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So it’s a no cut event.

Precedent set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. 👍
		
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See my edit of the post you quoted...an article from some time ago mind, so policies might have changed!
And FWIW, I very much doubt whether any of us are in a position to decide whether a precedent has been set or, more importantly, will have any effect on LIV's OWGR aspirations!


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			As the subject is the PGAT Tour Championship, I find the stats quite interesting:

2021 - Going into the event, 4 players were outside the top 30 ranked, the highest being 55
2022 - Going into the event, 9 players were outside the top 30 ranked, the highest being 61

As mentioned above:
Winning points     2021 51 points,  2022 38 points
Strength of Field   2021  538 , 2022 187           (probably some is the effect of the new SoF rules)

2021 - https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9247
2022 - https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9675

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Unless the actual calculation has changed, the difference between SoF values surprises me. Surely not because of the move of some top players to LIV!


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## IainP (Aug 23, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Unless the actual calculation has changed, the difference between SoF values surprises me. Surely not because of the move of some top players to LIV!
		
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Yes the calc changed earlier this month. Been a few posts & links on this and on other threads. Some players moving will have had an effect, but we'll likely never know how much of an effect due to the change.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sadly, there is no precedent set for LIV. But , I know deep down you are aware of that.

The players in the TOUR Championship all had to qualify to get there. And, they did so by playing well in multiple other events that also qualify for World Ranking Points. And, they needed to get their PGA Tour Card to qualify for all those events.

Obviously, this is not the same as LIV. Not even close. Forget individual events, the entire Tour is invitation only, with every event limited fields and no cuts.
		
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If it’s invitation only, how have 3 guys off the Asian tour just qualified for the Boston event?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If it’s invitation only, how have 3 guys off the Asian tour just qualified for the Boston event?
		
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OK, it might have some token qualifications. Not really a significant issue. I don't know the full details of how it all works, except extraordinary sums of money were offered to the most of the high profile players in the world to get them on the tour. Some said yes, others said no. The fact that a small section of much inferior players on the events qualify to do so does not make it proper qualification event. Not when the best players are all invitation, and some of the less good players qualify. 

If the elite players were having to qualify. with some invitations to some of the players less likely to compete, then it would be a different converstation.


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yes the calc changed earlier this month. Been a few posts & links on this and on other threads. Some players moving will have had an effect, but we'll likely never know how much of an effect due to the change.
		
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I knew it had changed, but didn't think it had changed by so much that those numbers would be the result - even with the few LIV guys likely to be in the top 30 qualifiers.


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## RRidges (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If it’s invitation only, how have 3 guys off the Asian tour just qualified for the Boston event?
		
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Please refresh my memory, as I only glimpse Asian Tour results sparingly. How did they 'qualify'? And who were/are they? I suspect it's 'qualify for an invitation', just like The Masters, but unlike The Open (now).
FWIW, I've seen a proposal for a 'Promotions' event, but that's for the 2024 series. Surely that's not what you are talking about.
https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golfs-future-plans-include-relegation-qualifying-tournament


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 23, 2022)

If you thought Liv was moving too far away from the traditional historic game. 

Don't worry Rory, Tiger and the PGA Tour have the answer 🙈
One day stadium golf on astroturf

They say Liv is a golf circus 🤣🤣

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/...cilroy-pga-tour-new-technology-driven-series/


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sadly, there is no precedent set for LIV. But , I know deep down you are aware of that.

The players in the TOUR Championship all had to qualify to get there. And, they did so by playing well in multiple other events that also qualify for World Ranking Points. And, they needed to get their PGA Tour Card to qualify for all those events.

Obviously, this is not the same as LIV. Not even close. Forget individual events, the entire Tour is invitation only, with every event limited fields and no cuts.
		
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A bit like a golf society meeting then.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If you thought Liv was moving too far away from the traditional historic game.

Don't worry Rory, Tiger and the PGA Tour have the answer 🙈
One day stadium golf on astroturf

They say Liv is a golf circus 🤣🤣

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/...cilroy-pga-tour-new-technology-driven-series/

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Yeah but surely they're not gonna play _"Blaring Music" ?_


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 23, 2022)

LIV for today, play for TMRW?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 23, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			LIV for today, play for TMRW?
		
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That, is pretty damn clever. Bravo.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Aug 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That, is pretty damn clever. Bravo.

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Stolen from social media


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## IainP (Aug 23, 2022)

There was the announcement of the PGA Tour 2024 changes a few weeks back. Recently we've had the 'secret meetings,' gossip of more changes, the stadium stuff.
Is this just an aim to occupy the media? (Could understand that)
Are there some 'land grabs ' going on, as opportunities have presented themselves?
Is a bit of 'rabbit in headlights' grabbing at things?
🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			There was the announcement of the PGA Tour 2024 changes a few weeks back. Recently we've had the 'secret meetings,' gossip of more changes, the stadium stuff.
Is this just an aim to occupy the media? (Could understand that)
Are there some 'land grabs ' going on, as opportunities have presented themselves?
Is a bit of 'rabbit in headlights' grabbing at things?
🤷‍♂️
		
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Seems to me that it's more about TW and his legacy - that is very much tied to the PGAT and its ongoing #1 Tour position. So a fair amount of ego involved from him. Monahan wasn't at the meeting, but it seems they support his stance and position.
It's likely that there'll be a 'more aggressive defence' by PGAT in future, which will benefit the premiere players, in order to re-establish PGAT as the #1 tour. I believe there will come a point when the leakage to LIV stops. or at least dramatically slows down, and the weekly schedule of PGAT events re-establishes it dominance - at least from a viewer count. LIV has been able to schedule it's circus against the weaker PGAT events, though their audiences still don't seem to be massive and actual spectator attendance has been pretty dire. It'll be interesting to see how next year's 'full' setup of 14 events plays out. For me, the un-natural team format, and likely even greater commentary emphasis on that, is a big off-putter, even with Feherty, who I can't remember mentioning it! It'll be an interesting contest, with LIV being more nimble, up till now, and better funded. But PGAT maintaining its position in spite of receiving a few wounds! The court case is a red herring that the LIV guys - however many of them stay the course - will be a loser for LIV guys imo, but the publicity involved will probably be deemed a good investment.
On a related, but side topic. I wonder how family get-togethers of the Uihlein family are working. Patriarch Wally was head of Acushnet which owns the Titleist, Footjoy, Scotty Cameron and Pinnacle brands, the first 3 so much of PGAT's history, while son Peter is a LIV player and former US Amateur winner who hasn't quite lived up to his potential imo, though that's not unusual for winners of that event!


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So it’s a no cut event.

Precedent set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. 👍
		
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It's one event out of how many in the entire tour season? How many cut/no cut events do LIV have?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			It's one event out of how many in the entire tour season? How many cut/no cut events do LIV have?
		
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Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to _Exemptions _from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to _Exemptions _from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)
		
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I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve when you know exactly why LIV right now doesn’t have Ranking Points 

Every single tour has exemptions for a very small amount of events 

That’s single events getting exempt not the whole tour 

Right now LIV events don’t fulfil a single criteria- and you know that , to try and muddy the waters bringing in single events that gain exemption doesn’t change anything


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to _Exemptions _from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)
		
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Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points? From my perspective the thought wouldn't even cross my mind. Why should they be given any points when many professional golfers had zero chance of competing in these events. 

At the moment, LIV is pretty much in the same position as that, except it is all about the money. There seems to be a huge sense of entitlement to people who think LIV should just be awarded World Ranking Points. I think it I'd this sense of entitlement that could be the biggest reason LIV fails in the long run.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points? From my perspective the thought wouldn't even cross my mind. Why should they be given any points when many professional golfers had zero chance of competing in these events.

At the moment, LIV is pretty much in the same position as that, except it is all about the money. There seems to be a huge sense of entitlement to people who think LIV should just be awarded World Ranking Points. I think it I'd this sense of entitlement that could be the biggest reason LIV fails in the long run.
		
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Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour. 

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 24, 2022)

@Mel Smooth 
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming. 
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour.

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?
		
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Exactly. Because LIV has money. So, should money buy World Ranking Points?

A whole host of reasons have been given why it seems ridiculous that LIV should be awarded ranking points as it stands. Clearly, you also don't understand the concept of an analogy.

I appreciate it that you love LIV. You adore the 54 hole format, you adore the team element and you adore that you don't have to put your hand in your pocket to watch it. That is all fine, completely personal preference. You also have views on how successful it could be going forward, with better and better players being attracted to it, whilst others think it will fail. All fine to, given we don't know how anything will turn out in the future, there are ways to back both points of view. Fine again.

However, when you start to mention the TOUR Championship, and comparing that to LIV in regards to World Ranking Points, you are really clutching at straws. My analogy was far more comparable to LIV in this regard than you trying to compare LIV and the TOUR Championship. It is a well known fact that the 30 players that play on the TOUR Championship qualified to get there. As a limited field, the governing body in charge of world ranking points need to specifically decide if World Ranking Points should be awarded. They have said yes, and I think it is incredibly likely they have done so knowing all players qualified for it, and that all professional golfers can get there if they wish to, as long as they play well enough.  Such arguments by yourself make little sense, and it smells very much like you feel you have already lost the argument, but you are desperate for any claim you make to stick, so you just start throwing stuff out there.

If LIV continues to grow, and starts to become a generally accepted tour where all professional golfers have a chance to compete, if they can play well enough to qualify for it, then it should absolutely be considered for World Ranking Points. But, that is not what LIV is. It is just a bunch or random elite golfers who have offered their services, for huge sums of cash, to play. There was no proper qualifying criteria, except for probably a few token spots in which LIV have yet to fill with other big names. It is simply a string of exhibition golf competitions at the moment. Again, nothing wrong with that. If fans enjoy watching that, with the players they do have, brilliant for LIV. I used to watch snooker players on Big Break with Jim Davidson, but I didn't think they should be offered world ranking points for their performances on the show. However, it was still an entertaining show, so it still achieved what it wanted.


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## PieMan (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour.

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?
		
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You're right as the majority of LIV players are worse than Swango and wouldn't get on the Lincolnshire Invitational.......!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Exactly. Because LIV has money. So, should money buy World Ranking Points?

A whole host of reasons have been given why it seems ridiculous that LIV should be awarded ranking points as it stands. Clearly, you also don't understand the concept of an analogy.

I appreciate it that you love LIV. You adore the 54 hole format, you adore the team element and you adore that you don't have to put your hand in your pocket to watch it. That is all fine, completely personal preference. You also have views on how successful it could be going forward, with better and better players being attracted to it, whilst others think it will fail. All fine to, given we don't know how anything will turn out in the future, there are ways to back both points of view. Fine again.

However, when you start to mention the TOUR Championship, and comparing that to LIV in regards to World Ranking Points, you are really clutching at straws. My analogy was far more comparable to LIV in this regard than you trying to compare LIV and the TOUR Championship. It is a well known fact that the 30 players that play on the TOUR Championship qualified to get there. As a limited field, the governing body in charge of world ranking points need to specifically decide if World Ranking Points should be awarded. They have said yes, and I think it is incredibly likely they have done so knowing all players qualified for it, and that all professional golfers can get there if they wish to, as long as they play well enough.  Such arguments by yourself make little sense, and it smells very much like you feel you have already lost the argument, but you are desperate for any claim you make to stick, so you just start throwing stuff out there.

If LIV continues to grow, and starts to become a generally accepted tour where all professional golfers have a chance to compete, if they can play well enough to qualify for it, then it should absolutely be considered for World Ranking Points. But, that is not what LIV is. It is just a bunch or random elite golfers who have offered their services, for huge sums of cash, to play. There was no proper qualifying criteria, except for probably a few token spots in which LIV have yet to fill with other big names. It is simply a string of exhibition golf competitions at the moment. Again, nothing wrong with that. If fans enjoy watching that, with the players they do have, brilliant for LIV. I used to watch snooker players on Big Break with Jim Davidson, but I didn't think they should be offered world ranking points for their performances on the show. However, it was still an entertaining show, so it still achieved what it wanted.
		
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## Backsticks (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points?
		
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They shouldnt get ranking points. But they will still all have to get entry to the majors. Which is easily done. They majors will just have a category : Top 10 players on the Swango Tour qualify unless already qualified by another channel.


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## AussieKB (Aug 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical
		
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Are you looking at both sides equally ?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical
		
Click to expand...

As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour. 
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 24, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Are you looking at both sides equally ?
		
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I believe so. 
The anti Liv brigade are less evangelical 
The matters are there to be debated, but I’m getting complaints and not from the anti Liv peeps, from general members that it is too much


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour.
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?
		
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Methinks you need to back off a bit


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They shouldnt get ranking points. But they will still all have to get entry to the majors. Which is easily done. They majors will just have a category : Top 10 players on the Swango Tour qualify unless already qualified by another channel.
		
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Perhaps. But it would have to be really carefully thought out. A handful of the players on LIV are still big names, who have shown they can compete with the best in recent times. However, the longer they no longer compete with the best on the PGA Tour, including all the up and coming youngsters over time, it could be tricky to gauge just how good these LIV players really are. Are they still one of the elite golfers in the world, or are they starting to do a Hunter Mahan and rapidly becoming relatively rubbish, after being right up there with the best for a period of time? Brooks might still look like he is a quality golfer, with top 5/10 finishes on LIV. However, if that continually gets him in Majors, yet he misses nearly all the cuts in the Majors, questions will be asked just how good the guy is.

Trying to put myself in the shoes of a professional golfer, and being in a position to make a professional decision for my career, the choice seems pretty simple at the moment. I could continue to compete in any of the established Tours, knowing that if I play well enough I could qualify for the biggest tournaments in golf. Or, I could sign up, if offered, to a completely separate tour knowing full well it does not yet offer any qualification into any of these big established events. So, if I stay on the established tours then the advantage of that is I get to play in all those established events, and if I was one of the elite, do financially well out of it over a long period of time (especially if I have many years at my peak). The disadvantage is that I need to qualify to keep my card, let alone get into the Majors, so any dip in form might jeopardise my position on the tour. Alternatively, I could join LIV. No longer on an established tour so I have no right to play in any of the established events, including Majors, unless somehow qualification criteria is changed. However, the advantage is that I get a huge sum of guaranteed money, and might even be happy with playing less golf. If I only have a year or 2 left as an elite golfer, or not convinced I could ever be good enough to be one of the best, or consistent enough to be a journeyman on the PGA, then LIV seems like a great choice.

There are pros and cons of signing up to LIV or not. But, if LIV players / supporters simply expect to benefit from all the cash, yet still have the red carpet rolled out for them to compete in all the best events on the established Tours, then it is incredibly arrogant. Basically they want all the advantages for joining LIV that their fellow professionals are not getting (whether the turn it down, or are never offered), and all the rights that PGA Tour players enjoy. You'll have PGA Tour players that are fighting hard to qualify for Majors, with many professionals struggling and maybe never getting there. Yet you could have LIV players who don't have to fight anywhere near as hard, and somehow get qualification solely through a handful of LIV performances, when probably more than 50% of the field is made up of relatively poor golfers, including has beens.


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## Stuart_C (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour.
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?
		
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Public criticism of Moderaters is forbidden round here Mel😉


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Phil but that line was crossed some time ago. 

Presumably there is some sort of counting system the mods have access to that will tell you who has how many posts in each thread? The percentage of posts from this poster in that thread should tell you the scale of the problem. 

Perhaps we should run a sweep on it, proceeds to H4H?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry Phil but that line was crossed some time ago.

Presumably there is some sort of counting system the mods have access to that will tell you who has how many posts in each thread? The percentage of posts from this poster in that thread should tell you the scale of the problem.

Perhaps we should run a sweep on it, proceeds to H4H?
		
Click to expand...

Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.
		
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Does it count if they’ve not written the content of each post themselves? 🤔


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 24, 2022)

Don't know what the problem is, there's only half a dozen active poster's on this thread and now the football season has started they are all back on the footie thread and this is quietening off.


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## Scoobiesnax (Aug 24, 2022)

Easiest way to solve this is to just ban the Forum!


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## BiMGuy (Aug 24, 2022)

Scoobiesnax said:



			Easiest way to solve this is to just ban the Forum!
		
Click to expand...

Or people that aren’t interested just stay out of it!

Funny how some who haven’t commented much recently have appeared once a mod has got involved.


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## SteveW86 (Aug 24, 2022)

I think a lot of people read the forum, but dont feel the need to comment on certain threads very often. I read this topic, but dont particularly care much either way about LIV, so dont have much to say on it. The constant bickering back and forth is irritating though.

Politics was banned because people couldnt talk about it without getting personal/ listening and accepting that other people have a different view. I dont think this thread should be treated any differently to politics just because we are on a golf forum. Rather than the constant telling off from Phil, if people cant discuss it properly then it should be banned like politics is.


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## Springveldt (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.
		
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To be fair, it sometimes seems like 10 vs 1 on the subject so he’s just trying to reply to all the other posts.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.
		
Click to expand...

Is one way of looking at it.  

If you are correct, 584 posts out of a total of 1,150 is over 50% of his total posts on this site are in that one thread.  

That's pretty dedicated for someone who's not on the LIV payroll...


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 24, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I think a lot of people read the forum, but dont feel the need to comment on certain threads very often. I read this topic, but dont particularly care much either way about LIV, so dont have much to say on it. The constant bickering back and forth is irritating though.

Politics was banned because people couldnt talk about it without getting personal/ listening and accepting that other people have a different view. I dont think this thread should be treated any differently to politics just because we are on a golf forum. Rather than the constant telling off from Phil, if people cant discuss it properly then it should be banned like politics is.
		
Click to expand...

Politics was banned because *certain* people couldn't discuss it sensibly, so everyone suffered; lots of people managed perfectly well.

Why should the subject under discussion be banned rather than the cause of the problem?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is one way of looking at it. 

If you are correct, 584 posts out of a total of 1,150 is over 50% of his total posts on this site are in that one thread.  

That's pretty dedicated for someone who's not on the LIV payroll... 

Click to expand...

I think I highlighted his contribution before on this thread, buried deep within it. At that time, I don't think he had made any contributions on any other thread (or, at most 1 or 2).

So, it appears that this LIV thread was very much his introduction into Golf Monthly, as he cares so passionately about it. Since then, and certainly after I mentioned this initially, it seems he has branched out to comment on some of the other threads out there.


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## SyR (Aug 24, 2022)

It seems pretty incredible to think LIV would be sending their people to argue with a relatively small group of people on an internet forum.


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## SteveW86 (Aug 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Politics was banned because *certain* people couldn't discuss it sensibly, so everyone suffered; lots of people managed perfectly well.

Why should the subject under discussion be banned rather than the cause of the problem?
		
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I know, and I agree.

It would just follow the path that GM have chosen in the past with banning a subject rather than a poster(s).


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## BiMGuy (Aug 24, 2022)

SyR said:



			It seems pretty incredible to think LIV would be sending their people to argue with a relatively small group of people on an internet forum.
		
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They are not. No way is Mel a LiV bot. He’s just so excited at the exciting new format that he’s taken it upon himself to be their forum spokesperson.

That said, I think it’s pretty clear not all of his posts are written by him, and many are just regurgitating nonsense from LiV bots on Twitter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

SyR said:



			It seems pretty incredible to think LIV would be sending their people to argue with a relatively small group of people on an internet forum.
		
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He is a LIV fan - that’s his choice and certainly not been sent here etc 

But a lot of what he has posted is straight from the LIV Bot hymn sheet


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## IainP (Aug 24, 2022)

Coming back to the OWGR points piece - not quoting posts as not planning on being in the "middle".
The age old knockout comps admin comments spring to mind - generally people say don't make exceptions because once you open that door then others expect it also, and some will push the limits.

It is pretty clear that now we have some sight of the OWGR guidelines, that if applied to a number of existing events then those individually will fall short. For each one a decent case can be made for the various specific exceptions and likely the majority are, and have been, okay with that.
I suspect the LIV gang have looked at those, and seen the exceptions door opened.
The comment on majority verses minority is a fair one, but the whole area is not clean cut IMO.


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## Jimaroid (Aug 24, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Don't know what the problem is, there's only half a dozen active poster's on this thread and now the football season has started they are all back on the footie thread and this is quietening off.
		
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Survivorship bias. Many of us continue to participate but just by reading and rolling our eyes. Doesn’t mean we’re not active in the thread, the view count of this thread goes up continually and that’s a better measure.

LIV is an contemporary, interesting and golf relevant topic that warrants discussion here but there is a huge gulf of difference between talking about it and shilling it. I think many of us previously active posters are simply bored with the latter.


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## Beezerk (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a LIV fan - that’s his choice and certainly not been sent here etc

But a lot of what he has posted is straight from the LIV Bot hymn sheet
		
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You could argue that a lot of the anti liv crowd do exactly the same, I've lost count of the amount of Twitter posts by the pro pga posse, most of them inane rubbish.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			Coming back to the OWGR points piece - not quoting posts as not planning on being in the "middle".
The age old knockout comps admin comments spring to mind - generally people say don't make exceptions because once you open that door then others expect it also, and some will push the limits.

It is pretty clear that now we have some sight of the OWGR guidelines, that if applied to a number of existing events then those individually will fall short. For each one a decent case can be made for the various specific exceptions and likely the majority are, and have been, okay with that.
I suspect the LIV gang have looked at those, and seen the exceptions door opened.
The comment on majority verses minority is a fair one, but the whole area is not clean cut IMO.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of the LIV stuff seems to be flying by the wire , that imo comes from someone like GN who imo is a novice when running a golf tour 

They have used money to get players and venues etc and imo they expected exemptions to be made for them when they couldn’t buy something 

They prob looked at some events getting exemptions and just thought well we can get the same without understanding the fine print

It’s why imo they linked up with the Asian Tour - it’s not out of some desire to help the Asian Tour but it’s a link that they can buy to help the players that they have bought to get ranking points. And imo they have done that because the issue is harming their ability to get players and the ones they have got are worried


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Survivorship bias. Many of us continue to participate but just by reading and rolling our eyes. Doesn’t mean we’re not active in the thread, the view count of this thread goes up continually and that’s a better measure.

LIV is an contemporary, interesting and golf relevant topic that warrants discussion here but there is a huge gulf of difference between talking about it and shilling it. I think many of us previously active posters are simply bored with the latter.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. At times I get involved in a discussion in here, but quite often I just sit back and read through comments, without contributing. I even peek in at times to see that at least 10 fresh pages have been created since my last view. I do a quick scan, see that the comments are by primarily the same people and saying the same things they were saying months ago, and hop out again.

I'm guessing there are a lot more people that look in, and never post a thing. Or post a quick comment once in a blue moon.


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## evemccc (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A lot of the LIV stuff seems to be flying by the wire , that imo comes from someone like GN who imo is a novice when running a golf tour

They have used money to get players and venues etc and imo they expected exemptions to be made for them when they couldn’t buy something

They prob looked at some events getting exemptions and just thought well we can get the same without understanding the fine print

*It’s why imo they linked up with the Asian Tour - it’s not out of some desire to help the Asian Tour* but it’s a link that they can buy to help the players that they have bought to get ranking points. And imo they have done that because the issue is harming their ability to get players and the ones they have got are worried
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, do you think that the PGA Tour wanted to ‘help’ the European Tour?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Out of interest, do you think that the PGA Tour wanted to ‘help’ the European Tour?
		
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No idea 🤷‍♂️

Not thought about it - they have created a stronger alliance between the two which will help the ET - can only guess at their motive , it allows another Avenue for talent to profess through to the PGA


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## Scoobiesnax (Aug 24, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Or people that aren’t interested just stay out of it!

Funny how some who haven’t commented much recently have appeared once a mod has got involved.
		
Click to expand...

LIV and let LIV BiM


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Agreed. At times I get involved in a discussion in here, but quite often I just sit back and read through comments, without contributing. I even peek in at times to see that at least 10 fresh pages have been created since my last view. I do a quick scan, see that the comments are by primarily the same people and saying the same things they were saying months ago, and hop out again.

*I'm guessing there are a lot more people that look in, and never post a thing.* Or post a quick comment once in a blue moon.
		
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At any time, the total number of registered members (posters) online is 10% or less of the actual total viewing.  Checking before I posted this the "members online" count was 31 members & 431 guests (Yes, I know, but that's how the figures are listed). Any other time I've noticed it the proportion has always been found 10% or less.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Politics was banned because *certain* people couldn't discuss it sensibly, so everyone suffered; lots of people managed perfectly well.

Why should the subject under discussion be banned rather than the cause of the problem?
		
Click to expand...

agree with this Rich. Don't ban the subject, bring back politics so it stops all the worry about "crossing the line" that is constantly there on many topics in Out of Bounds, where many subjects are hard to discuss without some politcal edge at very least. Just ban the people who ruin the topic


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you are correct, 584 posts out of a total of 1,150 is over 50% of his total posts on this site are in that one thread.  

That's pretty dedicated for someone who's not on the LIV payroll... 

Click to expand...

I just did a sample of my recent posting. It's getting near the same percentage as above - and this post adds another one!
I'm certainly not on either LIV or PGAT payroll, unfortunately, but LIV is THE HOT TOPIC in Golf currently - maybe tempered slightly for a few days from tomorrow unless LIV makes early announcement of the latest converts for this year. So many and strong views should be expected!
Let the Mods apply the rules according to their guidelines and debate the post, not the poster is my view 99% of the time!


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## evemccc (Aug 24, 2022)

Im surprised this thread hasn’t had any updates this afternoon, what with Monaghan’s letter..

I’ve read that PIP is growing to $100 million…?! Is this correct? 

If it is then the PGA Tour under Monaghan is totally fraudulent and beyond a joke, despite all the PR guff of what it’s purporting to be


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Im surprised this thread hasn’t had any updates this afternoon, what with Monaghan’s letter..

I’ve read that PIP is growing to $100 million…?! Is this correct?

If it is then the PGA Tour under Monaghan is totally fraudulent and beyond a joke, despite all the PR guff of what it’s purporting to be
		
Click to expand...

Just another poor case of rich golfers getting richer - it adds nothing to the game


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just another poor case of rich golfers getting richer - it adds nothing to the game
		
Click to expand...

This....👍


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## JamesR (Aug 24, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562456812464394250


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 24, 2022)

As anyone actually made any new points recently?
Or just going around in circles?
Seems people are just obsessed with anything LIV golf related & it’s become part of their daily routine to waffle on about it on social media because they e nothing better to do.
Twitter is full of it.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.
		
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585 🤯
That’s insane


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562490760582537220
Looks like the PGA’s version of T20 ?

Monday nights - bit of golf in a stadium


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562490760582537220
Looks like the PGA’s version of T20 ?

Monday nights - bit of golf in a stadium
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully someone will compare this to LIV,then that’s your evening sorted 🤞🏻


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## Backsticks (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just another poor case of rich golfers getting richer - it adds nothing to the game
		
Click to expand...

But then it isnt meant to add anything. It about increasing turnover and revenue for the best 50 golfers in the world. The game of golf is not a factor in this business contest. It is in the safe hands of the golfers of the world and the amateur associations.


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## Backsticks (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562490760582537220
Looks like the PGA’s version of T20 ?

Monday nights - bit of golf in a stadium
		
Click to expand...

It looks as much of a nonsense as the team element of the Saudi Tour. Looks like Rory and Tiger have lost their minds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But then it isnt meant to add anything. It about increasing turnover and revenue for the best 50 golfers in the world. The game of golf is not a factor in this business contest. It is in the safe hands of the golfers of the world and the amateur associations.
		
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Hence why i said it’s just about rich golfers getting richer 🤷‍♂️



Backsticks said:



			It looks as much of a nonsense as the team element of the Saudi Tour. Looks like Rory and Tiger have lost their minds.
		
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Looks a touch different as it’s more about skills or long drives etc - a bit like top golf and players getting points - but guess will know more soon enough


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why i said it’s just about rich golfers getting richer 🤷‍♂️



Looks a touch different as it’s more about skills or long drives etc - a bit like top golf and players getting points - but guess will know more soon enough
		
Click to expand...


It has shades of something the European Tour were doing at a few venues - Vernon Kay hosted it I beleive, target golf, usually in the docklands or somewhere similar.
Can't remember what it was called, but at the time it did seem a little contrived. 

I suspect this will have more gravitas because of the people behind it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It has shades of something the European Tour were doing at a few venues - Vernon Kay hosted it I beleive, target golf, usually in the docklands or somewhere similar.
Can't remember what it was called, but at the time it did seem a little contrived.

I suspect this will have more gravitas because of the people behind it.
		
Click to expand...

That was the hero challenge they used to play before before ET events in the UK


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## sweaty sock (Aug 24, 2022)

LIV tour handing out money for commitment to events, pga handing out money for commitment to events.  Also note that the 'Top 20' isnt the owgr top twenty, or the money list top 20 or even the fedex top 20.  But its the PIP top 20!!!  

At this point LIV is looking more like the meritocracy!!

Got to feel like the DP tour is the biggest loser, now kft tour players can be considered in the minimum earnings clause....


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			LIV tour handing out money for commitment to events, pga handing out money for commitment to events.  Also note that the 'Top 20' isnt the owgr top twenty, or the money list top 20 or even the fedex top 20.  But its the PIP top 20!!! 

At this point LIV is looking more like the meritocracy!!

Got to feel like the DP tour is the biggest loser, now kft tour players can be considered in the minimum earnings clause....
		
Click to expand...

The concensus of opinion over on twitter is that the DP Tour has been demoted into 5th place in terms of importance/appeal.


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## evemccc (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The concensus of opinion over on twitter is that the DP Tour has been demoted into 5th place in terms of importance/appeal.
		
Click to expand...

I would like to be a fly on the walls at Wentworth (if that still is their HQ?)

I wonder if ‘everyone’ at the DP World Tour think that Keith Pelley has played this well…?!


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## sweaty sock (Aug 24, 2022)

1. PGA
2. LIV
3. KFT
4. ASIA
5. DP

I could argue anywhere from 3 - 5.  Not long ago it was a very clear second though!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 24, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I would like to be a fly on the walls at Wentworth (if that still is their HQ?)

I wonder if ‘everyone’ at the DP World Tour think that Keith Pelley has played this well…?!
		
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I doubt many of the players do, maybe the odd few who believe in the pathway to the PGA Tour, but there just isn't commercial space in the market for it to appeal in it's current guise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 24, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			1. PGA
2. LIV
3. KFT
4. ASIA
5. DP

I could argue anywhere from 3 - 5.  Not long ago it was a very clear second though!
		
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The ET will sit at 2 because it has access to the majors


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why i said it’s just about rich golfers getting richer 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that's the fundamental driver (sic) behind golfers career moves.
But when a startup body uses massively increased rewards to successfully lure members away, it's natural for the original body to adjust their policies to compete. It's no different than in fast food wars where a new product is introduced and is successful - competitors will introduce an equivalent to avoid losing existing customers.


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			LIV tour handing out money for commitment to events, pga handing out money for commitment to events.  Also note that the 'Top 20' isnt the owgr top twenty, or the money list top 20 or even the fedex top 20.  But its the PIP top 20!!! 

*At this point LIV is looking more like the meritocracy!!*

Got to feel like the DP tour is the biggest loser, now kft tour players can be considered in the minimum earnings clause....
		
Click to expand...

Except for the original bung!
PGAT simply uses a different metric for how it rewards its most valuable players. And, to me, a more equitable and certainl ay more even-handed method. Though LIV can react quicker if they want to snatch a player deemed to be desirable.


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*The concensus of opinion over on twitter* is that the DP Tour has been demoted into 5th place in terms of importance/appeal.
		
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A ridiculous metric considering the amount of manipulation that can be performed on that medium!
But certainly DPWT needs to address the same issues that PGAT is doing.


Mel Smooth said:



			I doubt many of the players do, maybe the odd few who believe in the pathway to the PGA Tour, but there just isn't commercial space in the market for it to appeal in it's current guise.
		
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So it will either react or lose players.
Pelley isn't daft, in spite of his 'taste' in specs!
DPWT still has the 2nd largest pool of candidates and is the obvious path for them, even if they have higher aspirations.


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## BrianM (Aug 24, 2022)

I’d like to think that the bottom line is golf is poorer for all this crap going on.
We need the best players playing week in, week out against each other.
The tours need to come together and sort something out.
To say at least DJ and BDC on their days aren’t world class is not right, they can still compete with the best.
Money talks these days, regardless if we think they have enough or not.


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## JamesR (Aug 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’d like to think that the bottom line is golf is poorer for all this crap going on.
We need the best players playing week in, week out against each other.
The tours need to come together and sort something out.
To say at least DJ and BDC on their days aren’t world class is not right, they can still compete with the best.
Money talks these days, regardless if we think they have enough or not.
		
Click to expand...

The best players rarely play week in week out.


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## BrianM (Aug 24, 2022)

JamesR said:



			The best players rarely play week in week out.
		
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Maybe so James, but I think you know the point I’m getting at.
Whenever the ‘big’ tournaments are on we need the best playing.
There is world class players playing LIV and on the PGA.
There has to be a common ground.


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## RRidges (Aug 24, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’d like to think that the bottom line is golf is poorer for all this crap going on.
We need the best players playing week in, week out against each other.
The tours need to come together and sort something out.
To say at least DJ and BDC on their days aren’t world class is not right, they can still compete with the best.
Money talks these days, regardless if we think they have enough or not.
		
Click to expand...

That's the purpose/function of the Majors. Week in week is neither desirable, nor possible imo. 
LIV players have access to OWGR points, which allows them access to Majors, through Asian Tour - as Mel has often pointed out. So if they really want to do that, they have the means. There's also other qualification process in place.
But I think they believe - or they may have been told that - they are entitled to both take the money AND will still have access to Majors via OWGR.
And the logistics of implemented OWGR points for LIV events hasn't really been addressed either!
Unless LIV opens up their events to non-LIV players, there's actually no real comparison of LIV players performance against non-LIV players - and vice-versa. Only LIV v LIV and non-LIV v non-LIV. Should LIV players have their OWGR ranking frozen? Absolutely not imo! LIV plyers have the means to gain points and that's what they should do! It was their - supposedly informed - choice to go to LIV, so both the benefits and disadvantages should apply imo!


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## PieMan (Aug 24, 2022)

Scoobiesnax said:



			Easiest way to solve this is to just ban the Forum!
		
Click to expand...

Or make the Forum invitational? Perhaps with the tag line GM Forum But Louder......!


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Im surprised this thread hasn’t had any updates this afternoon, what with Monaghan’s letter..

I’ve read that PIP is growing to $100 million…?! Is this correct?

*If it is then the PGA Tour under Monaghan is totally fraudulent and beyond a joke*, despite all the PR guff of what it’s purporting to be
		
Click to expand...

Why is that? I'm certain that it acts within whatever rules it's required to do!


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

Many pages ago I posted something like "I suspect I may not like the destination, although right now am finding the early part of the journey fascinating"
The destination may be clarifying earlier than I thought.

Mentioned before I felt the traditional majors were under pressure recently from the purses for The Players & FedEx. We might have a situation soon where 25+ events (across PGAT & LIV) could have higher purses than the traditional majors - could become tricky for them.

Maybe Tiger did change golf forever 😉🤔
https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...d-reject-players-idea-of-limited-field-events


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ET will sit at 2 because it has access to the majors
		
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Not quite following as currently 4 of the 5 "has access to the majors" don't they?
Actually I think it's too early to rank.
Since the OWGR changes and DPWT lost its points protection, it is noticeable that for 3 consecutive weeks the KFT has ranked above the DPWT. Suspect some of that is where we are in the 'season' in the USA, likely DPWT will claw some back later in year but remains to be seen.
Asian tour I'd say is currently behind both but remains to be seen how 2023 plays out.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not quite following as currently 4 of the 5 "has access to the majors" don't they?
Actually I think it's too early to rank.
Since the OWGR changes and DPWT lost its points protection, it is noticeable that for 3 consecutive weeks the KFT has ranked above the DPWT. Suspect some of that is where we are in the 'season' in the USA, likely DPWT will claw some back later in year but remains to be seen.
Asian tour I'd say is currently behind both but remains to be seen how 2023 plays out.
		
Click to expand...


I'd agree with this, the SOF at the Asian Tour events will be affected by the LIV players deciding or not to play in them, however, as with Poulter last week, those LIV players could seemingly still take part in any future DP WT events (except the co-sanctioned ones where the PGAT would probably step in to prevent that happening), so the DPWT does still have a card up their sleeve if they want to maintain sone kind of status in the game.


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## RichA (Aug 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			Many pages ago I posted something like "I suspect I may not like the destination, although right now am finding the early part of the journey fascinating"
The destination may be clarifying earlier than I thought.

Mentioned before I felt the traditional majors were under pressure recently from the purses for The Players & FedEx. We might have a situation soon where 25+ events (across PGAT & LIV) could have higher purses than the traditional majors - could become tricky for them.

Maybe Tiger did change golf forever 😉🤔
https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...d-reject-players-idea-of-limited-field-events

Click to expand...

I would think that the rewards, financial and otherwise, of being an Open Champion or Masters winner far outstrip the value of the cash prize for 1st place. If they didn't then why would some folks be making so much noise about qualifying points?


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

RichA said:



			I would think that the rewards, financial and otherwise, of being an Open Champion or Masters winner far outstrip the value of the cash prize for 1st place. If they didn't then why would some folks be making so much noise about qualifying points?
		
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The qualifying points is just a project fear from the anti LIV lobby. But its a false one. The pgat doesnt control points, nor entry to the majors. Some are trying to present owgr position as the gateway to majors. It is one of several. If there are no points for Saudi players and they disappear from the owgr, the majors will create another entry point for them. The majors are not in this commercial spat.
Qualifying points is a red herring.


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## Beezerk (Aug 25, 2022)

Just heard on the Beeb before I get called a shill, it’s being reported that Cam Smith is signing for LIV on Monday 😬


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

RichA said:



			I would think that the rewards, financial and otherwise, of being an Open Champion or Masters winner far outstrip the value of the cash prize for 1st place. If they didn't then why would some folks be making so much noise about qualifying points?
		
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I guess we find out over the next few years.  As fans/followers most of us would like to think so, but the last few months has reinforced the money aspect.
Several US players have skipped the open championship over the years for example.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not quite following as currently 4 of the 5 "has access to the majors" don't they?
Actually I think it's too early to rank.
Since the OWGR changes and DPWT lost its points protection, it is noticeable that for 3 consecutive weeks the KFT has ranked above the DPWT. Suspect some of that is where we are in the 'season' in the USA, likely DPWT will claw some back later in year but remains to be seen.
Asian tour I'd say is currently behind both but remains to be seen how 2023 plays out.
		
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The ET has a level of access to The Open for example that none of the other tours have 

The likes of the KFT have none going into any major and Asian Tour has very minimal


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## Depreston (Aug 25, 2022)

There's no way that the Asian tour is above the DP  or the Korn Ferry actually


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## Swango1980 (Aug 25, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			1. PGA
2. LIV
3. KFT
4. ASIA
5. DP

I could argue anywhere from 3 - 5.  Not long ago it was a very clear second though!
		
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I assume this isn't purely a list of the world's biggest golf tours? I guess "biggest" is subjective, but there there probably are not many metrics that DP is 5th? If it was on player earnings only, then I'd have thought it would be 3rd and LIV probably at 1st (albeit only a small number of players can play, and therefore benefit). However, taking all factors into account, surely the PGA is a clear 1st and DP a clear 2nd. It is arguable if LIV actually counts as a proper golf Tour really and should therefore even be on the list, but that is clearly a circular argument between pro and anti LIV fans.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The qualifying points is just a project fear from the anti LIV lobby. But its a false one. The pgat doesnt control points, nor entry to the majors. Some are trying to present owgr position as the gateway to majors. It is one of several. If there are no points for Saudi players and they disappear from the owgr, the majors will create another entry point for them. The majors are not in this commercial spat.
Qualifying points is a red herring.
		
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There seems to be a mentality that LIV players should be punished for joining the series by having their access to Majors massively impacted, but the bottom line is,  if there is public and commercial demand for those players to be there, then the majors will want them there. 
I appreciate you’ve made the point several times on this thread, in my view, it’s the correct one. But time will only tell.


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## BrianM (Aug 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume this isn't purely a list of the world's biggest golf tours? I guess "biggest" is subjective, but there there probably are not many metrics that DP is 5th? If it was on player earnings only, then I'd have thought it would be 3rd and LIV probably at 1st (albeit only a small number of players can play, and therefore benefit). However, taking all factors into account, surely the PGA is a clear 1st and DP a clear 2nd. It is arguable if LIV actually counts as a proper golf Tour really and should therefore even be on the list, but that is clearly a circular argument between pro and anti LIV fans.
		
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What I don’t get is the winner on the Korn Ferry Tour got almost double the world ranking points than the winner on the DP tour.
This is where Keith Pelley needs to start earning his money, we need a strong European Tour, but we need to get more big money events to get our Rory’s etc back across the pond.


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## Beezerk (Aug 25, 2022)

Depreston said:



			There's no way that the Asian tour is above the DP  or the Korn Ferry actually
		
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I’d certainly put Korn Ferry above DP, it seems all the breakout players come from the Korn Ferry tour these days.


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## BrianM (Aug 25, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’d certainly put Korn Ferry above DP, it seems all the breakout players come from the Korn Ferry tour these days.
		
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Looking at the ranking points awarded, you are 100% right.


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## sweaty sock (Aug 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume this isn't purely a list of the world's biggest golf tours? I guess "biggest" is subjective, but there there probably are not many metrics that DP is 5th? If it was on player earnings only, then I'd have thought it would be 3rd and LIV probably at 1st (albeit only a small number of players can play, and therefore benefit). However, taking all factors into account, surely the PGA is a clear 1st and DP a clear 2nd. It is arguable if LIV actually counts as a proper golf Tour really and should therefore even be on the list, but that is clearly a circular argument between pro and anti LIV fans.
		
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The list was my assumption of the order 'twitter' was using to say DP was the 5th ranked tour.  My opinion without any real research is that pga and liv are 1 and 2.  The rest are much more subjective, as a european, we probably think dp is the best from a career and progression point of view.  If I was american, I wouldnt even consider the dp if I had access to the kft, so outside of liv and pga the order is subjective.  

My point was that whatever your subjective view is, the DP has fallen a long way from its legitimate pga challenger position in the nineties...


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ET has a level of access to The Open for example that none of the other tours have

The likes of the KFT have none going into any major and Asian Tour has very minimal
		
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Right, follow now  - exemptions. 👍
Agree, The Open pretty strong - the others not so much (US Open has some)


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The qualifying points is just a project fear from the anti LIV lobby. But its a false one. The pgat doesnt control points, nor entry to the majors. Some are trying to present owgr position as the gateway to majors. It is one of several.* If there are no points for Saudi players and they disappear from the owgr, the majors will create another entry point for them. The majors are not in this commercial spat.
Qualifying points is a red herring.*

Click to expand...

You keep saying that but I think you will be very surprised 

The Masters had fingers pointed at the during the Law suit , they have already asked Mickelson to not turn up - they won’t create any extra access beyond what they have 

The Open - again the R&A were pretty clear in what they have said and with asking GN to not turn etc , they also won’t create extra access 

The PGA - they will be firmly behind the PGAT and also with the US Open they will stick to their qualifying 

The majors won’t add qualfiying spots direct from LiV Tour imo - it’s why the players are going to play on the Asian Tour and also want to keep membership on others


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## r0wly86 (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You keep saying that but I think you will be very surprised

The Masters had fingers pointed at the during the Law suit , they have already asked Mickelson to not turn up - they won’t create any extra access beyond what they have

The Open - again the R&A were pretty clear in what they have said and with asking GN to not turn etc , they also won’t create extra access

The PGA - they will be firmly behind the PGAT and also with the US Open they will stick to their qualifying

The majors won’t add qualfiying spots direct from LiV Tour imo - it’s why the players are going to play on the Asian Tour and also want to keep membership on others
		
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Agree, people will watch the Majors whether LIV players are on it or not, so there is no incentive for them to bend the rules to allow access


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## BrianM (Aug 25, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Agree, people will watch the Majors whether LIV players are on it or not, so there is no incentive for them to bend the rules to allow access
		
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People will always watch it, but they won’t be winning it competing against all the best players in the world.
Brooks, BDC, DJ and Reed are still world class and are still capable of winning Majors.
So to some people, there would be that wee * next to it.
In my opinion, I think the players would rather they were playing as well, then there’s no ambiguity about the result.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			People will always watch it, but they won’t be winning it competing against all the best players in the world.
Brooks, BDC, DJ and Reed are still world class and are still capable of winning Majors.
So to some people, there would be that wee * next to it.
In my opinion, I think the players would rather they were playing as well, then there’s no ambiguity about the result.
		
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And those players will still be in the majors 🤷‍♂️


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## BrianM (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And those players will still be in the majors 🤷‍♂️
		
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Only if the world ranking points system is sorted.
The big problem with LIV will be the 3 round format in my opinion, if it was just a normal 4 day tournament I don’t think it would be such an issue (forgetting the team element, which is secondary)


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## r0wly86 (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			People will always watch it, but they won’t be winning it competing against all the best players in the world.
Brooks, BDC, DJ and Reed are still world class and are still capable of winning Majors.
So to some people, there would be that wee * next to it.
In my opinion, I think the players would rather they were playing as well, then there’s no ambiguity about the result.
		
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But I honestly don't think the Majors care, they don't need to justify their tournaments, they are known around the world and transcend the sport. Majority of people won't care if Zalatoris or McIloroy win a major because BDC wasn't there.

I just cannot see a reason why the Majors would alter their qualification requirements, they gain nothing from it


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## Imurg (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Only if the world ranking points system is sorted.
The big problem with LIV will be the 3 round format in my opinion, if it was just a normal 4 day tournament I don’t think it would be such an issue (forgetting the team element, which is secondary)
		
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They have exemptions as Major winners for the next few years..those mentioned don't need ranking points for entry..


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			But I honestly don't think the Majors care, they don't need to justify their tournaments, they are known around the world and transcend the sport. Majority of people won't care if Zalatoris or McIloroy win a major because BDC wasn't there.

I just cannot see a reason why the Majors would alter their qualification requirements, they gain nothing from it
		
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The winner of The Open is Champion Golfer, would it not be a hollow title knowing there are golfers out there that could have potentially challenged for that position?


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The winner of The Open is Champion Golfer, would it not be a hollow title knowing there are golfers out there that could have potentially challenged for that position?
		
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It’s no different to players missing through injury.

Was the PGA any poorer this year with Mickleson missing? Absolutely not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Only if the world ranking points system is sorted.
The big problem with LIV will be the 3 round format in my opinion, if it was just a normal 4 day tournament I don’t think it would be such an issue (forgetting the team element, which is secondary)
		
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They  will still be playing majors due to exemptions they already have and then performing in the majors will keep them in

And if the Tour was set up as per normal then they would be getting ranking points after being around for a year


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## Imurg (Aug 25, 2022)

Successfully defending The Open has happened 3 times in the last 40 years...it's not a common occurrence 
Not having last year's winner is unlikely to matter much..


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## BrianM (Aug 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			They have exemptions as Major winners for the next few years..those mentioned don't need ranking points for entry..
		
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Clearly, I never thought that through 🤣🤣🙈


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s no different to players missing through injury.

Was the PGA any poorer this year with Mickleson missing? Absolutely not.
		
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But that’s always going to be the case, as it always has been. We’re talking about a scenario where the field is engineered to exclude players from competing - who would have a genuine chance of winning.


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## Kaz (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The winner of The Open is Champion Golfer, would it not be a hollow title knowing there are golfers out there that could have potentially challenged for that position?
		
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I don't get this. It's called "The Open Championship" for a reason so unless Liv golfers were banned from entering qualifying they'd be able to get in?


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Clearly, I never thought that through 🤣🤣🙈
		
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Ha, it is pretty complicated following individual exemptions and expiry times.
More 'what if' stuff but players like Ancer, Gooch, Wolff for example might be considered future possible challengers


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But that’s always going to be the case, as it always has been. We’re talking about a scenario where the field is engineered to exclude players from competing - who would have a genuine chance of winning.
		
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Nothing is being engineered though is it?

Players left to play LiV knowing there were no world ranking points on offer at those events. They were told they would be banned from the PGAT if they tees it up at a LiV event. Unless, and I know this is highly unlikely, Greg Norman lied to them about OGWR points. They have no one to blame but themselves if they can’t get into a major. 

The only players that are of any real value will still be exempt for a number of years. At the minute we are talking about 3 or 4 players. That clearly may change in the future.


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## IainP (Aug 25, 2022)

Kaz said:



			I don't get this. It's called "The Open Championship" for a reason so unless Liv golfers were banned from entering qualifying they'd be able to get in?
		
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Agree, & wouldn't it be great to see some at regional qualifying 

I think two thoughts/conversations have become mixed.  One as you mention is specific exclusion, there's been a few rumours but currently no actual indication this will happen  (Masters maybe being the biggest doubt). The other is the "ease" of qualification. Is it a case of just spend some time on the Asian and DPWT (if allowed) to earn your way in that way. Or might some ranking system from the LIV events be added to the qualifications. Time will tell I guess.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

A lot of people seem to forget that the owgr has not been around since the days of Old Tom Morris.
The majors had the worlds best players long before the owgr became a useful tool to select them. The will continue to ensure they have the worlds best golfers even if the owgr no longer indicated correctly the worlds best golfers.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			They have no one to blame but themselves if they can’t get into a major.
		
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They have no worries. They know the majors will invite them, world ranking points or no.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			A lot of people seem to forget that the owgr has not been around since the days of Old Tom Morris.
The majors had the worlds best players long before the owgr became a useful tool to select them. The will continue to ensure they have the worlds best golfers even if the owgr no longer indicated correctly the worlds best golfers.
		
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Did he? Or did he play against those well off enough to enter the competition?


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Just heard on the Beeb before I get called a shill, it’s being reported that Cam Smith is signing for LIV on Monday 😬
		
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That would be the logical time for the announcement, so no surprise - if it happens. Though with typical LIV style, a couple more days of 'suspense' would provide beneficial publicity.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Did he? Or did he play against those well off enough to enter the competition?
		
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Did he what ?


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## BiMGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Did he what ?
		
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Sorry, did OTM play against the worlds best players? For many years they had people with the money to enter or were local enough to have access.


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*The winner of The Open is Champion Golfer*, would it not be a hollow title knowing there are golfers out there that could have potentially challenged for that position?
		
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You have repeated the same sort of 'misrepresentation' that I've noted and/or suspected in other pro-LIV statements - and a goodly number of anti-LIV ones too. That possible misrepresentation is the reason for the 2nd statement of a court oath!
The Title is 'Champion Golfer *of the Year*', so your entire statement is moot - as no-one can challenge him for that position!


Mel Smooth said:



			But that’s always going to be the case, as it always has been. We’re talking about a scenario *where the field is engineered to exclude players from competing - who would have a genuine chance of winning*.
		
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No it hasn't! The players have chosen a route that potentially excludes them from competing in certain events. It was the players choice!
Your 'logic' is the equivalent to claiming that getting a ticket for doing 70 in a 40mph area is 'preventing me getting to work on time' when the real reason is choosing to dally at home prior to leaving for work!
And FWIW, unless the eligibility criteria change, quite a few will still be eligible for quite a while - because of previous Major wins!


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 25, 2022)

Just heard a great analogy on the Fire Drill Podcast re the PGAs increase in purses announcement yesterday.

"So far the PGA tour have been bringing a knife to a gun fight, at least now they are bringing a pistol while Liv has sub machine guns but at least they are now firing back.
The worry for Jay Monahan is that Liv could bring in the heavy artillery at anytime."


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’d certainly put Korn Ferry above DP, it seems all the breakout players come from the Korn Ferry tour these days.
		
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I'd agree. My thought on the reason for that is that it's a development/feeder tour for The PGA Tour, as opposed to DPWT being, for many, the pinnacle of their aspirations, whether that be proximity to home or simply excellent reward without the cut-throat environment of US based tours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The winner of The Open is Champion Golfer, would it not be a hollow title knowing there are golfers out there that could have potentially challenged for that position?
		
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There is nothing stopping them going through qualifying 🤷‍♂️


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Only if the world ranking points system is sorted.
The big problem with LIV will be the 3 round format in my opinion, if it was just a normal 4 day tournament I don’t think it would be such an issue (forgetting the team element, which is secondary)
		
Click to expand...

It's way more than that!
Check out the chart posted a few pages back. There are about 8 showstoppers. 54 holes is only 1 of them - and could easily be rectified, though LIV=54, I suspect it will linger! They've already 54 players will go though - to 48.


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Masters had fingers pointed at the during the Law suit , *they have already asked Mickelson to not turn up* - they won’t create any extra access beyond what they have
		
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Apparently not so! Apparently Mickelson's choice. https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/golf/news/phil-mickelson-miss-2022-masters/xanekotofvbcbrtic2brd8zw


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## RRidges (Aug 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			People will always watch it, but they won’t be winning it competing against all the best players in the world.
Brooks, BDC, DJ and Reed are still world class and are still capable of winning Majors.
So to some people, there would be that wee * next to it.
In my opinion, I think the players would rather they were playing as well, then there’s no ambiguity about the result.
		
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I suggest you check out those players performances in recent Majors! Brooks's for example was MC; 55; T55; MC. Dustin performed ok/well (T6 at The Open), if not great though - 1 MC.
Could LIV's format be making them lose their drive?


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## JamesR (Aug 25, 2022)

Any Pro, and amateurs with low enough handicaps, can qualify for the 2 major opens.
So the LIV boys are perfectly entitled to attempt to qualify.
Hell, if they want to start at Kedleston I’ll even caddy for one of them.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 25, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I suggest you check out those players performances in recent Majors! Brooks's for example was MC; 55; T55; MC. Dustin performed ok/well (T6 at The Open), if not great though - 1 MC.
*Could LIV's format be making them lose their drive?*

Click to expand...

I suggested that about 100 pages ago. However, pro LIV posters ridiculed that suggestion, simply by saying that they will always go out to win.

However, with more time off, not worrying about keeping their card or staying high up the world rankings, competing against lesser players, etc there seem to be many reasons for them to lose their drive, or their oomph, or however else you could phrase it. They say elite sport is bout marginal gains, and there seem to be a whole host of reasons that LIV could make players lose focus in certain areas of their golfing life, and place more attention on things outside of golf. The money gives them that luxury.


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## Imurg (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They have no worries. They know the majors will invite them, world ranking points or no.
		
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The only inviting that goes on in Majors is done by the Masters (and that's mostly a ceremonial thing apart from a few amateurs)...nobody gets invited to the others - they are either exempt or have to qualify.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 25, 2022)

This Tiger & Rory stadium golf thing is all a bit cringe imo.
If LIV golf hadn’t come along & Tiger tried this he’d be getting slated for it.
Seems he’s got a few more fans now.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The only inviting that goes on in Majors is done by the Masters (and that's mostly a ceremonial thing apart from a few amateurs)...nobody gets invited to the others - they are either exempt or have to qualify.
		
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Potato, potato. The other majors will exempt them to their tournaments, the master will invite them. Bottom line is, they'll be there.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			This Tiger & Rory stadium golf thing is all a bit cringe imo.
If LIV golf hadn’t come along & Tiger tried this he’d be getting slated for it.
Seems he’s got a few more fans now.
		
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Think I need to see it before deciding, but if if it was an idea presented on Dragons Den, I'd be declaring "I'm out"


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

Looks like Its a Knockout. Rubbish. Why do people think they need to dumb down or reinvent something that needs no reinventing. Get on with the real thing and ditch the crazy golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Think I need to see it before deciding, but if if it was an idea presented on Dragons Den, I'd be declaring "I'm out"
		
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Thought you would definitely be in - it’s a short format 🤷‍♂️


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## Imurg (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Potato, potato. The other majors will exempt them to their tournaments, the master will invite them. Bottom line is, they'll be there.
		
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Yeah...they'll be there because the ones that matter have recently won Majors and are, therefore, exempt...Bryson, Brooks, DJ, Read etc etc
The ones that aren't  - Westwood, Poulter, Kaymer, Gooch, Na etc etc will have to qualify.
If they're in the top 50 or 60 in the OWGR on a certain date then that will qualify them..if they're not then there are qualifying competitions that they can enter.
The Opens are not going to say to them " Oh, you were once a World #1 ..please come and play....
The pathway is already there for them to qualify...if they don't qualify then they don't play.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought you would definitely be in - it’s a short format 🤷‍♂️
		
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Did I see somewhere that it will be on a Monday Evening?
It's definitely aimed at primetime viewing, that's a well repeated phrase in all the press blurb, which will mean it will be happening in the early hours of the morning over here - assuming it's primetime USA viewing.

It's definitely not proper golf on a course, maybe that's why I have my doubts as to whether it will appeal to me.


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## FourPutt (Aug 25, 2022)

It would be a shame to see these players rocking up at qualifying for the Open etc. imagine being an elite amateur or lower ranked/club pro and turning up to try and qualify and having to play against DJ et al. 
In that sense this could negatively impact those who aren’t even involved in the whole thing.


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## Harry Putter (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Think I need to see it before deciding, but if if it was an idea presented on Dragons Den, I'd be declaring "I'm out"
		
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If Dragons Den presented an individual golf format but contrived a team element that nobody cares about, with names like Crushers, Punch and Smash then I'd definitely be out.. in fact you wouldn't even get in the room.

How much are LIV paying you to spout your constant drivel?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			If Dragons Den presented an individual golf format but contrived a team element that nobody cares about, with names like Crushers, Punch and Smash then I'd definitely be out.. in fact you wouldn't even get in the room.

*How much are LIV paying you to spout your constant drivel?*

Click to expand...

Definitley not enough to compensate for the nonsense I have to put up with on here.


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## Harry Putter (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Definitley not enough to compensate for the nonsense I have to put up with on here. 

Click to expand...

So you are on the LIV payroll.. that figures


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 25, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			So you are on the LIV payroll.. that figures 

Click to expand...

No I'm not Harry. I was being sarcastically ironic.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Yeah...they'll be there because the ones that matter have recently won Majors and are, therefore, exempt...Bryson, Brooks, DJ, Read etc etc
The ones that aren't  - Westwood, Poulter, Kaymer, Gooch, Na etc etc will have to qualify.
If they're in the top 50 or 60 in the OWGR on a certain date then that will qualify them..if they're not then there are qualifying competitions that they can enter.
The Opens are not going to say to them " Oh, you were once a World #1 ..please come and play....
The pathway is already there for them to qualify...if they don't qualify then they don't play.
		
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You cant have a pathway that ignores a tour regardless of the level of player on it. The will make a new pathway ; and Saudi Tour winners, top 10 on the Saudi rankings, anyone who places in the top 3 in the 3 tournys before that major or whatever. If the existing pathway doesnt work, you have to lay a new one.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I'm not Harry. I was being sarcastically ironic.
		
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Come clean though then. I would have assumed your were a paid influencer or some such - you know the liv tour is a pile of poo like everyone else does dont you ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			You cant have a pathway that ignores a tour regardless of the level of player on it. The will make a new pathway ; and Saudi Tour winners, top 10 on the Saudi rankings, anyone who places in the top 3 in the 3 tournys before that major or whatever. If the existing pathway doesnt work, you have to lay a new one.
		
Click to expand...

No matter how many times you say it still won’t make it happen 

There will be no direct entry from the LIV Tour results into the majors


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## Harry Putter (Aug 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I'm not Harry. I was being sarcastically ironic.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I don't agree with your point of view, but I respect your right to air it.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No matter how many times you say it still won’t make it happen

There will be no direct entry from the LIV Tour results into the majors
		
Click to expand...

So on Monday, for example, Cantlay, Straka, Zalatoris, Homa, Hatton, Poston, Power, Schauffle, Wise, Noren, Harmon, Kuchar, Kirk, Fleetwood, Lee, List, Glover, English, Young, Hovland, Burns, Finau, Lahiri, Fox, Berger, Stallings, Wise, Bradley, Horschel, Varner, Triangle, Theegala, all take the Sheiks Riyal. It benefits the majors how, not to have those players in their fields ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So on Monday, for example, Cantlay, Straka, Zalatoris, Homa, Hatton, Poston, Power, Schauffle, Wise, Noren, Harmon, Kuchar, Kirk, Fleetwood, Lee, List, Glover, English, Young, Hovland, Burns, Finau, Lahiri, Fox, Berger, Stallings, Wise, Bradley, Horschel, Varner, Triangle, Theegala, all take the Sheiks Riyal. It benefits the majors how, not to have those players in their fields ?
		
Click to expand...

🤷‍♂️ Sorry not sure your point as many of them will gain access via exemptions already and most of them people won’t care about and have little impact on the majors anyway

It doesn’t change that the majors won’t change their qualifying to help LIV Tour players


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2022)

I can see that you are missing the point - if you saw it, you would agree that the majors will change their criteria. It isnt needed at the moment. The players that matter still get in by the existing routes. BdC, DJ, PR, CS. But once there is a risk of a significant cohort of the worlds best golfers not having automatic access as they do at the moment, then the majors will react. There is no way they will hobble the prestige they hold today.


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## sunshine (Aug 26, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Mel Smooth 
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming. 
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical
		
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We do need contrarian views for a constructive debate, but I understand your point. 

To be fair, this thread is heading for 300 pages and I think we all know what Mel is up to, so people shouldn’t be taking it seriously or getting offended any more. He’s turned into a parody account now with his Twitter “facts”.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I can see that you are missing the point - if you saw it, you would agree that the majors will change their criteria. It isnt needed at the moment. The players that matter still get in by the existing routes. BdC, DJ, PR, CS. But once there is a risk of a significant cohort of the worlds best golfers not having automatic access as they do at the moment, then the majors will react. There is no way they will hobble the prestige they hold today.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not missing the point - I know exactly what you are trying to say

But it’s also very clear that the majors imo will not create direct qualifying from LIV events or tours when every single one of them can qualify from other means 

If the tour becomes a standard tour with points then there will be further entry


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 26, 2022)

sunshine said:



			We do need contrarian views for a constructive debate, but I understand your point.

To be fair, this thread is heading for 300 pages and *I think we all know what Mel is up to,* so people shouldn’t be taking it seriously or getting offended any more. He’s turned into a parody account now with his Twitter “facts”.
		
Click to expand...

What’s that then?

I’m just debating the issue from the LIV side of the argument - obviously outnumbered on this platform by those that aren’t fans, but happy to keep contributing despite the seemingly unwavering views shared by both sides.

As for twitter news, Smith, Leishman and Tringale apparently confirmed as going, plus another top 30 player that will be a ‘bombshell’. The twitter account is Argentinian, and lots of speculation it will be Joaquin Niemann, which would be deemed a big signing in that part of the world.


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## Backsticks (Aug 26, 2022)

But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding.
		
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Well that’s just your view mate, but suggesting I’m dim is a bit unnecessary.
I know if I did the same, I’d have the wrath of Phil the Fragger to answer to.


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## Backsticks (Aug 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well that’s just your view mate, but suggesting I’m dim is a bit unnecessary.
I know if I did the same, I’d have the wrath of Phil the Fragger to answer to.
		
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Im not really suggesting it. Its just if one took your posts as face value, one could. But as I have said also, its clear you are not, but my point is that you are arguing the unarguable and suggesting by that, that there is merit in LIV, when we all know, you included, that there isnt.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Im not really suggesting it. Its just if one took your posts as face value, one could. But as I have said also, its clear you are not, but my point is that you are arguing the unarguable and suggesting by that, that there is merit in LIV, when we all know, you included, that there isnt.
		
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Ok, I think I’ll just block you if you actually believe it’s reasonable to suggest I’m lying for the sake of forming a debate on here. Infact, you’re not a Foxholer alter ego are you?


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## pokerjoke (Aug 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What’s that then?

I’m just debating the issue from the LIV side of the argument - obviously outnumbered on this platform by those that aren’t fans, but happy to keep contributing despite the seemingly unwavering views shared by both sides.

As for twitter news, Smith, Leishman and Tringale apparently confirmed as going, plus another top 30 player that will be a ‘bombshell’. The twitter account is Argentinian, and lots of speculation it will be Joaquin Niemann, which would be deemed a big signing in that part of the world.
		
Click to expand...

I honestly don’t know why people are having a dig at you considering the absolute bull that comes out of some peoples mouths.
Some people actually believe they own this forum and it’s there way or no way.
Experts in every walk of life.
Experts on every subject,debating for weeks until everyone becomes tired and sick to death.
I can’t think of one positive debate on here in at least 2 years.
Liv has woken up the PGA tour
People now playing for more money than ever ,thx to Liv.
Of course it’s not about the money 😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding.
		
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I don’t think there is any need to start insulting him like that 

He has an opinion about LIV and whilst at times it reads from a script that you see all over social media you can’t start calling people dim etc


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 26, 2022)

This all started to KICK OFF with Phil Mickleson and his reputation has undoubtedly suffered.....

BUT... WAS PHIL RIGHT

Quote
"The tumultuous events of the past two weeks have provided some sweet vindication for Phil" 

https://firepitcollective.com/phil-was-right-phil-mickelson/


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## evemccc (Aug 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding.
		
Click to expand...

This way of looking at the world, and of people you disagree with, smacks of a lot of things..

I don’t think I need to spell them out. But they’re not in the least desirable


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## howbow88 (Aug 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That was the hero challenge they used to play before before ET events in the UK
		
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I remember watching one of these once. 

If I had a choice of watching one again, or having a fight with Uysk with my hands tied behind my back, then tie me up please.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 27, 2022)

This is quite a telling interview from Rahm - regarding the 20 event minimum event requirement that the PGA Tour are introducing, to counter the threat of LIV



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563439970861617152


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## Marshy77 (Aug 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is quite a telling interview from Rahm - regarding the 20 event minimum event requirement that the PGA Tour are introducing, to counter the threat of LIV



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563439970861617152

Click to expand...

Just seen this too. To me and I could be very wrong but it sounds like Tiger and Rory could possibly be doing more harm than good to players still on the PGA by these secret meetings etc. The way that he answers you're asking the wrong person seems to indicate that all this is being led by them 2 who obviously not in it for the money, more fame and more recognition. At all. 

Westwood tweeted about this interview too and mentioned that meeting last week. Golf has gone from being viewed as a boring, old rules driven sport to kind of interesting with LIV and the way it's played to money/fame driven, petulant, intensely boring arguments from players that earn obscene amounts of money talking about the same thing time and time again. It's like a how to build and destroy the game in 12 months.


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## evemccc (Aug 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is quite a telling interview from Rahm - regarding the 20 event minimum event requirement that the PGA Tour are introducing, to counter the threat of LIV



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563439970861617152

Click to expand...

The Rory and Tiger Show brought to you in association with a highly sycophantic media


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This is quite a telling interview from Rahm - regarding the 20 event minimum event requirement that the PGA Tour are introducing, to counter the threat of LIV



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563439970861617152

Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563602015393284096


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563602015393284096

Click to expand...

Eddie is clearly miffed he didn’t get a text from Sharky isn’t he Phil?


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## BiMGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563602015393284096

Click to expand...

Lee has gone from being a seemingly decent bloke, to Greg Norman’s yappy lap dog


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Eddie is clearly miffed he didn’t get a text from Sharky isn’t he Phil?
		
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Eddie is always very appreciative of the ET and doesn’t seem to be a fan of LIV and Westwood who jumped quickly shoold just go away quietly


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## Beezerk (Aug 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563602015393284096

Click to expand...

A bit ironic from Eddie isn’t it? He’s been a vocal anti LIV Twitter poster.


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## Marshy77 (Aug 27, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			A bit ironic from Eddie isn’t it? He’s been a vocal anti LIV Twitter poster.
		
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I think he's always been in the just admit you went for the money camp more than anything else. 

All this squabbling between the players is fairly interesting in a kind of social media fallout point of view but is getting as boring as a school friendship group fallout.


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## DaveR (Aug 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding.
		
Click to expand...

That's just your opinion, there are other views on LIV. Some think it's a good thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 27, 2022)

I’m guessing Wayne Grady isn’t a fan of LIV or Norman ?

This is his take


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing Wayne Grady isn’t a fan of LIV or Norman ?

This is his take

View attachment 44033

Click to expand...

Brilliant that Phil 👍🏻
Just out of interest how my social media platforms are you obsessing over LIV?


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## 4LEX (Aug 28, 2022)

Westwood and Poulter really are two deluded wrong un's consumed by greed. I would include G-Mac but he's a total non entity these days.

I wonder if they'll get any abuse at Wentworth in a few weeks? It would be a shame if they did


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 28, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Westwood and Poulter really are two deluded wrong un's consumed by greed. I would include G-Mac but he's a total non entity these days.

I wonder if they'll get any abuse at Wentworth in a few weeks? It would be a shame if they did 

Click to expand...

Aren’t all the top players consumed by greed?
They’re all chasing the $
Yes they want to win majors,but it’s all about the $.
Saint Rory as chased the money all his courier.
So as Tiger.


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## 4LEX (Aug 28, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Aren’t all the top players consumed by greed?
They’re all chasing the $
Yes they want to win majors,but it’s all about the $.
Saint Rory as chased the money all his courier.
So as Tiger.
		
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That's a fair comment, pro golfers are motivated by money. However the actions of those two do leave a sour taste. Genuine Ryder Cup hero's now chasing the dollar and destroying their legacy at every turn. Sad to see it.


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

The Wentworth field is looking good. Plenty over from the PGAT, plus several, much publicised, from LIV.
Wonder if the recently announced PGAT changes are giving Pelley some food for thought..


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 28, 2022)

The only reason the field for Wentworth is looking better than the past few years is players chasing ranking points which they can’t get elsewhere.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			The Wentworth field is looking good. Plenty over from the PGAT, plus several, much publicised, from LIV.
Wonder if the recently announced PGAT changes are giving Pelley some food for thought..
		
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It certainly should do, the recent decisions made haven’t done much to strengthen the DP Tour. Wentworth should be a great event - one that I’m sure many European golf fans are looking forwards to.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only reason the field for Wentworth is looking better than the past few years is players chasing ranking points which they can’t get elsewhere.
		
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Which demonstrates where the DPWT can exploit the current stand off by the PGAT.

I hope Pelley is familiar with the phrase “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			The Wentworth field is looking good. Plenty over from the PGAT, plus several, much publicised, from LIV.
Wonder if the recently announced PGAT changes are giving Pelley some food for thought..
		
Click to expand...

The guys from LIV who don’t have ET membership shouldn’t be allowed there imo - the likes of Gooch , Na , Kokrak etc wouldn’t have touched any ET event before they got banned from PGAT - 

There are now some ET players who are supporting the tour all year round who will miss out now because of these players just using the event to grab points. 

The whole thing is snowballing and stinks - and the other golfers benefitting are those at the top - the guys just about getting by should be the ones the tours should be helping. Disappointed that the ET allowed them to enter


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The guys from LIV who don’t have ET membership shouldn’t be allowed there imo - the likes of Gooch , Na , Kokrak etc wouldn’t have touched any ET event before they got banned from PGAT -

There are now some ET players who are supporting the tour all year round who will miss out now because of these players just using the event to grab points.

The whole thing is snowballing and stinks - and the other golfers benefitting are those at the top - the guys just about getting by should be the ones the tours should be helping. Disappointed that the ET allowed them to enter
		
Click to expand...

They’re some of the best golfers in the world!! Why wouldn’t anybody want them participating? And by the way, the sponsors will be loving the extra interest these players will generate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re some of the best golfers in the world!! Why wouldn’t anybody want them participating? And by the way, the sponsors will be loving the extra interest these players will generate.
		
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You miss the points massively once again 

Tell me how many times the likes of Gooch and Kokrak ever went near a ET event ? 

I know you can’t see past LIV but the only people gaining from all this upheaval since LIV arrived is rich golfers


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## Beezerk (Aug 28, 2022)

4LEX said:



			That's a fair comment, pro golfers are motivated by money. However the actions of those two do leave a sour taste. Genuine Ryder Cup hero's now chasing the dollar and destroying their legacy at every turn. Sad to see it.
		
Click to expand...

The words Westwood and Ryder Cup hero don't go together for me like


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The words Westwood and Ryder Cup hero don't go together for me like 

Click to expand...

harsh 

His RC record is very clear for all to see


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You miss the points massively once again

Tell me how many times the likes of Gooch and Kokrak ever went near a ET event ?

I know you can’t see past LIV but the only people gaining from all this upheaval since LIV arrived is rich golfers
		
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No I don’t miss the points, you do. LIV has changed golf globally, the likes of Kokrak and Gooch aren’t playing on the PGA Tour anymore, that has given opportunities to players further down the rankings there - on a tour that has somehow managed to negotiate the most favourable OWGR terms - so if a young player thinks they have what it takes, the PGA Tour is their best target for getting there.
They can still play on the ET events when the opportunity is there, and if good enough will soon be regulars on the tour, a tour which will be strengthened by the inclusion  of some world class players at Wentworth.


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The *only* reason the field for Wentworth is looking better than the past few years is players chasing ranking points which they can’t get elsewhere.
		
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Players like McIlroy & Rahm?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I don’t miss the points, you do. LIV has changed golf globally, the likes of Kokrak and Gooch aren’t playing on the PGA Tour anymore, that has given opportunities to players further down the rankings there - on a tour that has somehow managed to negotiate the most favourable OWGR terms - so if a young player thinks they have what it takes, the PGA Tour is their best target for getting there.
They can still play on the ET events when the opportunity is there, and if good enough will soon be regulars on the tour, a tour which will be strengthened by the inclusion  of some world class players at Wentworth.
		
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So LIV should rejoice at the PGAT bans as this is allowing more players into PGAT events , leaving spaces in Korn Ferry which can be filled by more lowly players and so on and therefore growing the game vicariously.

Weird logic


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The guys from LIV who don’t have ET membership shouldn’t be allowed there imo - the likes of Gooch , Na , Kokrak etc wouldn’t have touched any ET event before they got banned from PGAT -

There are now some ET players who are supporting the tour all year round who will miss out now because of these players just using the event to grab points.

The whole thing is snowballing and stinks - and the other golfers benefitting are those at the top - the guys just about getting by should be the ones the tours should be helping. Disappointed that the ET allowed them to enter
		
Click to expand...

I follow your points, but the tournament and tour set the entry criteria  - and IMO for years they've been trying to entice PGAT players to add it into their schedules & commitments with some success.
In terms of regular players missing out, is that any different to the Scottish Open earlier in the year?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So LIV should rejoice at the PGAT bans as this is allowing more players into PGAT events , leaving spaces in Korn Ferry which can be filled by more lowly players and so on and therefore growing the game vicariously.

Weird logic
		
Click to expand...

No, let me be clear. 

The PGAT bans of LIV players have created opportunities for players further down their rankings = good for those lower ranked players.

Those banned players are now looking for opportunities to play elsewhere to gain ranking points, meaning they are playing globally = good for global golf. 

Since LIV has been introduced, golf has HAD to give itself a massive kick up the backside, there will be good and bad that stems from that, but in the end, as long as golf benefits, rather than one particular tour (which has definitely been the case) then we will find golf in a better place. 

The field at Wentworth represents where Pelley could take the DP Tour if he wanted to, given the current circumstances.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re some of the best golfers in the world!! Why wouldn’t anybody want them participating? And by the way, the sponsors will be loving the extra interest these players will generate.
		
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Has anyone ever been to an event to see Gooch and Kokrak play? There are some good LiV players playing the BMW, but most aren’t adding anything to the quality of the field.

As for the European fans being excited at them adding to the quality of the field. I very much except they won’t get a warm welcome.


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## Springveldt (Aug 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Lee has gone from being a seemingly decent bloke, to Greg Norman’s yappy lap dog
		
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Not sure I would agree with that. He just seems like someone who is peeved off with the hypocrisy coming from the PGA Tour and is voicing that.


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## Springveldt (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re some of the best golfers in the world!! Why wouldn’t anybody want them participating? And by the way, the sponsors will be loving the extra interest these players will generate.
		
Click to expand...

Best players or not the guys who aren’t part of the DPWT should definitely not be playing at Wentworth. They are banned from PGA Tour events and are taking places from DPWT members who should be playing. 

Unless they are joining the DPWT and are committing to playing X number of events they should be told to GTF. 

The LIV guys that are still DPWT members, I’ve no issue with them playing at all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			I follow your points, but the tournament and tour set the entry criteria  - and IMO for years they've been trying to entice PGAT players to add it into their schedules & commitments with some success.
In terms of regular players missing out, is that any different to the Scottish Open earlier in the year?
		
Click to expand...

The issue is these players aren’t being enticed from the PGAT - they are only there because they have been banned from the PGAT and need to get ranking points - 

And the Scottish Open is a co sanctioned and there was an event in the US that the players could go and play at the same time


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Best players or not the guys who aren’t part of the DPWT should definitely not be playing at Wentworth. They are banned from PGA Tour events and are taking places from DPWT members who should be playing.

Unless they are joining the DPWT and are committing to playing X number of events they should be told to GTF.

The LIV guys that are still DPWT members, I’ve no issue with them playing at all.
		
Click to expand...

Without checking, I'm not sure who are or are not members of the DPWT, looks to me like a lot of them actually are anyway.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Has anyone ever been to an event to see Gooch and Kokrak play? There are some good LiV players playing the BMW, but most aren’t adding anything to the quality of the field.

As for the European fans being excited at them adding to the quality of the field. I very much except they won’t get a warm welcome.
		
Click to expand...

Aside from a handful of golfers, such as Tiger, Rory etc, nobody goes to see one particular golfer play.

As for fans giving them a hard time, I'm sure they won't mind - infact I expect they actually use it to their advantage where they can.


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

Springveldt said:



*Best players or not the guys who aren’t part of the DPWT should definitely not be playing at Wentworth*. They are banned from PGA Tour events and are taking places from DPWT members who should be playing.

Unless they are joining the DPWT and are committing to playing X number of events they should be told to GTF.

The LIV guys that are still DPWT members, I’ve no issue with them playing at all.
		
Click to expand...

Best tell 'em to change the rules then


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Tringale confirms his position….


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563888795925241862


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2022)

I think we all need to remember that this is all Jay Monahan’s fault, and has been for the the last 10 to 15 years.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I think we all need to remember that this is all Jay Monahan’s fault, and has been for the the last 10 to 15 years.
		
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I'm sure Tringale will be seen as "no big loss" by many to the PGA Tour, but the names that are due to be announced over the next few days will definitley sting a little for Monaghan.


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## howbow88 (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm sure Tringale will be seen as "no big loss" by many to the PGA Tour, but the names that are due to be announced over the next few days will definitley sting a little for Monaghan.
		
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What names are they? Morikawa? Schauffele? Rahm? Finau? 

All of these guys were coming to LIV at one point, but it turned out that it was just pure BS put out by LIV to unsettle the PGAT.


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2022)

Seems that Tringale actually liked the PGA tour, and it wasn’t as evil as some LIVidiots suggest.
He apparently enjoyed his career there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm sure Tringale will be seen as "no big loss" by many to the PGA Tour, but the names that are due to be announced over the next few days will definitley sting a little for Monaghan.
		
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People wouldn’t be able to pick Tringale out of a line up and it’s the same with most of the names rumoured apart from Cam Smith


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## fenwayrich (Aug 28, 2022)

Isn't Cameron Tringale a record holder on the PGA Tour? Most appearances without a single victory I think. Another 30 odd guy who has no future.

On the plus side, he appears to be a decent bloke who supports various charities, so perhaps he can divert some of the dodgy money to a decent cause.


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## Imurg (Aug 28, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			Isn't Cameron Tringale a record holder on the PGA Tour? Most appearances without a single victory I think. Another 30 odd guy who has no future.

On the plus side, he appears to be a decent bloke who supports various charities, so perhaps he can divert some of the dodgy money to a decent cause.
		
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I think it's most money won without a win...same meat different gravy
Perfect fit for LIV then...
And I echo LPP's comment about him being faceless....can't recall ever seeing a picture of him.
No loss.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			What names are they? Morikawa? Schauffele? Rahm? Finau?

All of these guys were coming to LIV at one point, but it turned out that it was just pure BS put out by LIV to unsettle the PGAT.
		
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Lahiri, Leishman, Varner, Smith, and possibly Niemann


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People wouldn’t be able to pick Tringale out of a line up and it’s the same with most of the names rumoured apart from Cam Smith
		
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I wouldn't pick most PGA Tour golfers out if they walked past me in the street, with a few exceptions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I wouldn't pick most PGA Tour golfers out if they walked past me in the street, with a few exceptions.
		
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So as per the list it’s still those middle of the road Pros that are below the top level of golfers - the sort that are very replaceable 

Thought the next bunch was going to be full of stars - where are the likes of Matsyuama, Scott 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So as per the list it’s still those middle of the road Pros that are below the top level of golfers - the sort that are very replaceable

Thought the next bunch was going to be full of stars - where are the likes of Matsyuama, Scott 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...


So the current Open champion isn't a star? Aren't you getting bored of inhaling that sand your head seems to be buried in?

The LIV field has got some stellar names in it already, which will be added to for Boston, and added to furthermore for 2023. Deny that if you want, but they have.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So the current Open champion isn't a star? Aren't you getting bored of inhaling that sand your head seems to be buried in?

The LIV field has got some stellar names in it already, which will be added to for Boston, and added to furthermore for 2023. Deny that if you want, but they have.
		
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So who from that list beyond Smith ( as i said earlier ) are the “stellar names” 

what seems to happen is there is lots of rumours and talk with lots of big name mentioned all over the media ( mainly from pro liv ) - and then when the players are actually announced it’s a bunch of middle road players that haven’t done much and will just be replaced on the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

Was Matsyuama etc all rumoured last time and it ended up being Howell and Kokrak , this time it’s Tringale , Varner , Lahiri etc - they aren’t stellar names


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So who from that list beyond Smith ( as i said earlier ) are the “stellar names”

what seems to happen is there is lots of rumours and talk with lots of big name mentioned all over the media ( mainly from pro liv ) - and then when the players are actually announced it’s a bunch of middle road players that haven’t done much and will just be replaced on the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

Was Matsyuama etc all rumoured last time and it ended up being Howell and Kokrak , this time it’s Tringale , Varner , Lahiri etc - they aren’t stellar names
		
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Go and read my post again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Go and read my post again.
		
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So which players are the stellar names beyond Smith 🤷‍♂️


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2022)

Well Mel likes LIV.   I hope he's getting paid for his support.

I've yet to hear of a single golfer at the club who has watched a second of it.

That strikes me as odd, or indicative of their progress.


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## PieMan (Aug 28, 2022)

With all these new signings, how long before McDowell and Poulter need to start worrying about being dropped for younger, mediocre PGA Tour players?


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## Imurg (Aug 28, 2022)

PieMan said:



			With all these new signings, how long before McDowell and Poulter need to start worrying about being dropped for younger, mediocre PGA Tour players?
		
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I'm sure their back pockets will be filled sufficiently to mean they can't walk properly....he'll, they may even have to come back to the DP and go and play big events in Kenya and Mauritius (no offence Slab)
Here's a thought....what if, say, Gooch, who has been banned from the PGA Tour, joins DP and gets one of the qualifying places for the next years PGA....?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I'm sure their back pockets will be filled sufficiently to mean they can't walk properly....he'll, they may even have to come back to the DP and go and play big events in Kenya and Mauritius (no offence Slab)
Here's a thought....what if, say, Gooch, who has been banned from the PGA Tour, joins DP and gets one of the qualifying places for the next years PGA....?
		
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I did see somewhere (but don’t ask me to find it - it was weeks ago) that any bans from the PGAT can only be 1 year, so any banned players are then eligible to qualify again.


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2022)

PieMan said:



			With all these new signings, how long before McDowell and Poulter need to start worrying about being dropped for younger, mediocre PGA Tour players?
		
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They won't worry.   They'll be too busy flying their aeroplanes, driving their Ferraris and generally loafing!


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## pokerjoke (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lahiri, Leishman, Varner, Smith, and possibly Niemann
		
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All very recognisable 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			All very recognisable 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
		
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That will depend on where you are from - not all golf fans are from the UK or the USA.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 28, 2022)

IanM said:



			Well Mel likes LIV.   I hope he's getting paid for his support.

I've yet to hear of a single golfer at the club who has watched a second of it.

That strikes me as odd, or indicative of their progress.
		
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I think that’s probably rubbish and I suspect your aware of that.
Not a second?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I did see somewhere (but don’t ask me to find it - it was weeks ago) that any bans from the PGAT can only be 1 year, so any banned players are then eligible to qualify again.
		
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Yet the Commissioner was quite clear that they wouldn’t be welcomed back at any point 

But they don’t need to come back to the PGA - they have their new tour , why would they need to play on the PGAT or ET when they have the 14 LIV events


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## pokerjoke (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That will depend on where you are from - not all golf fans are from the UK or the USA.
		
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Sorry that’s wasn’t based on what you said,I’m totally agreeing they are recognised


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

PieMan said:



			With all these new signings, how long before McDowell and Poulter need to start worrying about being dropped for younger, mediocre PGA Tour players?
		
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My guess was they had 2023 guaranteed then after that who knows...


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I think that’s probably rubbish and I suspect your aware of that.
Not a second?
		
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Item one was a joke.  Hence the wink.

Second item...absolutely so.  We were chatting in the bar yesterday,  the assembled group haven't watched any at all.  Similar question asked if any knew any one who watched it.  Nil return.   

Closest was my bother in law who lives in St Albans was given free tickets...he didn't bother going. 

It's a bit like debating PCC.   The chattering classes on here are full of it,  most golfers don't seem bothered.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 28, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Sorry that’s wasn’t based on what you said,I’m totally agreeing they are recognised
		
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Apologies, misunderstood the context of your post. I agree, they may not be stellar names (Cam Smith is of course) but they are all very relevant golfers.


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## Imurg (Aug 28, 2022)

Rings true...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563938865764864000


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## pokerjoke (Aug 28, 2022)

Is everyone not getting richer purely because of Liv?
The PGA have virtually doubled purses overnight.
Considering sign up money into the 100s of thousands.
I suspect appearance fees have risen sharply.
Players absolutely roasting other players,whilst their own pockets bulge.
Now that’s hypocritical


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563906145177276416
That’s a bit of kick for them


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## BiMGuy (Aug 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563906145177276416
That’s a bit of kick for them
		
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What happened to the $400mill he was going to move for?

Most sources that are “on the money” seem to throw lots of names around. Eventually they get one right.


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I did see somewhere (but don’t ask me to find it - it was weeks ago) that any bans from the PGAT can only be 1 year, so any banned players are then eligible to qualify again.
		
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Was that from someone who knows, or the usual twitter crap?


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

The Hideki rumours did seem to go colder the last few weeks. Like most, I try to ignore the gossip and wait for actual announcements  - not easy though.

Early on I thought they'd find it easier bringing in non-US players, and the US players would need even more cash promises (bit like English players in the EPL). So even though not the really big names, have been quite surprised by the numbers of US so far.
Will be interesting to see the actual 2023 schedule, rumours were the R&A encouraged them to have more events outside of USA. We'll see.


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## Canary Kid (Aug 28, 2022)

The recent comments from Butch Harmon exactly mirror my view.  I would have more respect for the guys going to LIV if they said that they went for the money … they are professionals with a relatively short career, so why shouldn’t they … rather than coming out with spurious reasons like playing less golf or spending more time with the family.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			The Hideki rumours did seem to go colder the last few weeks. Like most, I try to ignore the gossip and wait for actual announcements  - not easy though.

Early on I thought they'd find it easier bringing in non-US players, and the US players would need even more cash promises (bit like English players in the EPL). So even though not the really big names, have been quite surprised by the numbers of US so far.
Will be interesting to see the actual 2023 schedule, rumours were the R&A encouraged them to have more events outside of USA. We'll see.
		
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Hideki was being held up to be a big jewel in the crown to allow them to bring in the “Srixon” franchise and all Japanese teams etc - a lot of the LIV bots had it as a done deal and a key player in the franchise move 

It always seemed to be a strange move for him as he has always appeared to be a level headed respectful person and The Masters highlighted that


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## FourPutt (Aug 28, 2022)

I thought Matsuyama came out and confirmed his support for the PGA Tour in the last week or so? I’m sure I saw something


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## IainP (Aug 28, 2022)

Canary Kid said:



			The recent comments from Butch Harmon exactly mirror my view.  I would have more respect for the guys going to LIV if they said that they went for the money … they are professionals with a relatively short career, so why shouldn’t they … rather than coming out with spurious reasons like playing less golf or spending more time with the family.
		
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I agree with the sentiment, but wonder if influenced by comments from a small number of higher profile players.
Personally I've heard/read lots talking about the money angle, wonder if more than 10% actually went down the less time/family route?


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## Depreston (Aug 28, 2022)

Canary Kid said:



			The recent comments from Butch Harmon exactly mirror my view.  I would have more respect for the guys going to LIV if they said that they went for the money … they are professionals with a relatively short career, so why shouldn’t they … rather than coming out with spurious reasons like playing less golf or spending more time with the family.
		
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A relatively short career 

The PGA tour tbf to them look after them more than most 

What other sport gives a pension and a retirement plan


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564052050610208770
😂


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 29, 2022)

[


Liverpoolphil said:



			You miss the points massively once again

Tell me how many times the likes of Gooch and Kokrak ever went near a ET event ?

I know you can’t see past LIV but the only people gaining from all this upheaval since LIV arrived is rich golfers
		
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It's funny how he went on about "poor caddies" yet here he is happy to insert rich golfers over those who actively play on the tour and to ask that we "think of the sponsors". 

There's more brains in a pork pie.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564052050610208770
😂
		
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Like most I enjoy watching Rory in full flow on the course.
Off course, I'm in two minds, he's become pretty good at these interview digs. Is it 'top bantz'? Is it a bit odd after just winning the tour championship he brings 'the other side' into it?  What's the phrase these days 'rent free'? Or is he just making sure he's a shoe in for the PIP money? It's certainly keeping pro golf in the media.

Anyway, he's proved he's good in small field events 😉😉😁


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			Like most I enjoy watching Rory in full flow on the course.
Off course, I'm in two minds, he's become pretty good at these interview digs. Is it 'top bantz'? Is it a bit odd after just winning the tour championship he brings 'the other side' into it?  What's the phrase these days 'rent free'? Or is he just making sure he's a shoe in for the PIP money? It's certainly keeping pro golf in the media.

Anyway, he's proved he's good in small field events 😉😉😁
		
Click to expand...

He’s becoming very boring now imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			Like most I enjoy watching Rory in full flow on the course.
Off course, I'm in two minds, he's become pretty good at these interview digs. Is it 'top bantz'? Is it a bit odd after just winning the tour championship he brings 'the other side' into it?  What's the phrase these days 'rent free'? Or is he just making sure he's a shoe in for the PIP money? It's certainly keeping pro golf in the media.

Anyway, he's proved he's good in small field events 😉😉😁
		
Click to expand...

Find it all amusing - seems he said it with a smile on his face and quite a bit later

It’s funny - the man gets battered from pillar to post mainly from people who are jealous of him , he is pretty open in what he says and is even criticised for that , it’s telling that those who call him a bottler are mute when he plays well

Right now the LIV bots are trying to find anything and everyone to discredit him - accusations of cheating from them at the moment


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## pokerjoke (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Find it all amusing - seems he said it with a smile on his face and quite a bit later

It’s funny - the man gets battered from pillar to post mainly from people who are jealous of him , he is pretty open in what he says and is even criticised for that , it’s telling that those who call him a bottler are mute when he plays well

Right now the LIV bots are trying to find anything and everyone to discredit him - accusations of cheating from them at the moment
		
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He actually got given the win rather than won it.
He’s bottled majors for 8 years,that’s his legacy,probably one of the most talented golfers ,who has massively bombed in majors.
A man who calls others greedy but shows how money motivates him,he really didn’t give a poop about that tournament,the same as in 2015 when he was skipping around the fairway.
He’s become a spokesman for the tour and how good it is,but players are still leaving.
Although it’s stabilising there is a place for two tours,yet some can’t get to grips with it.
He failed to shout Fore yesterday twice,why,it’s an automatic shout,is it above him?
Good golfer,total hypocrite imo.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 29, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			He actually got given the win rather than won it.
He’s bottled majors for 8 years,that’s his legacy,probably one of the most talented golfers ,who has massively bombed in majors.
A man who calls others greedy but shows how money motivates him,he really didn’t give a poop about that tournament,the same as in 2015 when he was skipping around the fairway.
He’s become a spokesman for the tour and how good it is,but players are still leaving.
Although it’s stabilising there is a place for two tours,yet some can’t get to grips with it.
He failed to shout Fore yesterday twice,why,it’s an automatic shout,is it above him?
Good golfer,total hypocrite imo.
		
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😂


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 29, 2022)

Just wish Rory was more of a spokesman for the European Tour, the same Tour he represents in the Ryder Cup.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			😂
		
Click to expand...

Some just can’t help themselves 

Must admit didn’t expect to see that he was given the win as opposed to earning it - it’s not like he didn’t have the best “gross score” over the four days as well 

Not bad when he was ten shots back after three holes on Thursday


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 29, 2022)

I have a friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour. (For Real)

He says the Liv 7 are believed to be 

Cam Smith
Joachim Niemann 
Marc leishman 
Harold varner III
Aniban lahiri 
Cameron Tringale
Not sure of the 7th - thinks Hideki has changed his mind..


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I have a friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour. (For Real)

He says the Liv 7 are believed to be

Cam Smith
Joachim Niemann
Marc leishman
Harold varner III
Aniban lahiri
Cameron Tringale
Not sure of the 7th - thinks Hideki has changed his mind..
		
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That’s the popular names being mentioned

The social media talk was that Niemann was on the fence still and also Mito Peirera was on the fence

Strange to see a lot of player giving up majors but it’s a lot of money to set them up for life.

Cam Smith is really the only name that matters  there

edit - Niemann it seems is confirmed 

im guessing he was the big player they were hinting at during the week


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s the popular names being mentioned 

The social media talk was that Niemann was on the fence still and also Mito Peirera was on the fence 

Strange to see a lot of player giving up majors but it’s a lot of money to set them up for life. 

Cam Smith is really the only name that matters  there
		
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I also think Niemann is a loss... Huge young Talent, 2 PGA Tour wins and no 19 in the world.

The rest no big loss, Leishman helps put the Aussie team together..


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I also think Niemann is a loss... Huge young Talent, 2 PGA Tour wins and no 19 in the world.

The rest no big loss, Leishman helps put the Aussie team together..
		
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In terms of talented young players then it’s a shame to see him go and it’s a loss in that respect but in terms of media impact etc there will be many that just don’t really know him from Adam


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In terms of talented young players then it’s a shame to see him go and it’s a loss in that respect but in terms of media impact etc there will be many that just don’t really know him from Adam
		
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Just looked at last years Player Impact program top 10.
Players who had the biggest impact.

PGA Tour - 5 Players
Liv Tour - 5 Players


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In terms of talented young players then it’s a shame to see him go and it’s a loss in that respect but in terms of media impact etc there will be many that just don’t really know him from Adam
		
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You do make me laugh Phil. When players leave who have a big media impact go to LIV, you brush them off as being at the end of their careers, and when young players who have a good deal of potential leave you brush them off has not having a big media impact.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Just looked at last years Player Impact program top 10.
Players who had the biggest impact.

PGA Tour - 5 Players
Liv Tour - 5 Players
		
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I’m guessing the LiV players are - BDC , DJ , Micklson , Koepka and Watson maybe ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do make me laugh Phil. When players leave who have a big media impact go to LIV, you brush them off as being at the end of their careers, and when young players who have a good deal of potential leave you brush them off has not having a big media impact.

Click to expand...

Is it not valid then ? 

How many people know who Niemann is ? Is he all over the media when the big comps come around ? Do crowds flock to see him at tournaments? 

Your tunnel vision in regards LIV just gets more narrow each time. 

What’s happened to Matsyuama ?


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not valid then ?

How many people know who Niemann is ? Is he all over the media when the big comps come around ? Do crowds flock to see him at tournaments?

Your tunnel vision in regards LIV just gets more narrow each time.

What’s happened to Matsyuama ?
		
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I'd imagine loads of people know who Niemann is Phil, especially in latin america - and no, people don't flock to see him at tournaments, because they are all in North America, or they were - and the South American golf fans have little chance of going to watch "their man".


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 29, 2022)

Everyone says the Ryder Cup is the biggest casualty in all this. 
The European Ryder Cup Team wouldn't be terrible without the Liv Players. 
Still could be a contest

Rory
Rahm
Fitzpateick
Hovland
Hatton
Fleetwood
Lowry
Pieters
S Power
?
? 
?


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## Backsticks (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Everyone says the Ryder Cup is the biggest casualty in all this.
The European Ryder Cup Team wouldn't be terrible without the Liv Players.
Still could be a contest

Rory
Rahm
Fitzpateick
Hovland
Hatton
Fleetwood
Lowry
Pieters
S Power
?
?
?
		
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Nah. RC is just a curio, and not really relavant. It isnt too important. Agree is a casualty, as its the one thing that is already dwad as collateral damage in the war. But I wouldnt cry over it. Much mor important is the avoiding of any serious cleave that gives us a twin track pro golf scene with divided resources. Niemann, Leishman etc, are minor foot soldiers who will not be factors in the winning or losing of the battle. Smith is. But if the indications are right, he is the last defector. And while a loss, it would still give the PGAT a comfortable victory. The Saudi tour being more a Harlem Globe Trotters stage show, with the real sport elsewhere.
There is a real possibility the career of Cam Smith could be the biggest casualty - the man who sold his golfing soul and ended up a one win wonder that could have been much much more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Everyone says the Ryder Cup is the biggest casualty in all this.
The European Ryder Cup Team wouldn't be terrible without the Liv Players.
Still could be a contest

Rory
Rahm
Fitzpateick
Hovland
Hatton
Fleetwood
Lowry
Pieters
S Power
?
?
?
		
Click to expand...

It’s not going to affect the European team much- looking at the players who have left then most like Westwood , Garcia etc would have been looking at picks but other than that 🤷‍♂️

The US team will have been hit harder 

DJ mainly , but if the like if Koepka and BDC get their form back then they would have been big players for the US


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Everyone says the Ryder Cup is the biggest casualty in all this.
The European Ryder Cup Team wouldn't be terrible without the Liv Players.
Still could be a contest

Rory
Rahm
Fitzpateick
Hovland
Hatton
Fleetwood
Lowry
Pieters
S Power
?
?
?
		
Click to expand...

Surely the Presidents Cup is much more of a casualty.

There's actually been growing nonsense chat about having a ryder cup style PGAT vs. LIV, which I laughed off. As the sniping grows, maybe it would have some legs - but the politics wouldn’t allow it. PGAT would be favourites but it would likely capture the public attention.


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## woofers (Aug 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			There is a real possibility the career of Cam Smith could be the biggest casualty - the man who sold his golfing soul and ended up a one win wonder that could have been much much more.
		
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So true, if he signs.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2022)

woofers said:



			So true, if he signs.
		
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What's the thinking then?
Cam has 5 year exemptions at 3 of the majors, and 30+ years at the other.


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## fundy (Aug 29, 2022)

Like grease lightening this thread lol, "I got shills, theyre multiplying"........................


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## Backsticks (Aug 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			What's the thinking then?
Cam has 5 year exemptions at 3 of the majors, and 30+ years at the other.
		
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The thinking is, that of course, the majors are what matters most, and he will be in all 4 for the next 15 years regardless. But the big problem, is that thats all he will be in. He will be playing only 4 tournaments a year. He is at risk of becoming beached on 6 career wins. So he HAS to win majors. Thats a lot of pressure, and he will be coming into them with the handicap of no other serious tournament experience, or of measuring himself against the other top 30 golfers that he will face in them. When he sits down to press conference his move to Saudi, he could well be drawing a curtain on the sum achievement, and his record in tournament golf, right there, at the age of 29, just as one might have thought in the normal course of events, it was about to really launch. So part LiV move announcement, part retirement announcement.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The thinking is, that of course, the majors are what matters most, and he will be in all 4 for the next 15 years regardless. But the big problem, is that thats all he will be in. He will be playing only 4 tournaments a year. He is at risk of becoming beached on 6 career wins. So he HAS to win majors. Thats a lot of pressure, and he will be coming into them with the handicap of no other serious tournament experience, or of measuring himself against the other top 30 golfers that he will face in them. When he sits down to press conference his move to Saudi, he could well be drawing a curtain on the sum achievement, and his record in tournament golf, right there, at the age of 29, just as one might have thought in the normal course of events, it was about to really launch. So part LiV move announcement, part retirement announcement.
		
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Thanks for explaining/sharing your views 👍, intriguing.


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Thanks for explaining/sharing your views 👍, intriguing.
		
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Its like footballers going to play in China or the US. Serious ones do it at 37 or so when their playing days in the top flight are done, and the medals and legacy in the game written. So they cash in for a few years. But and cups or championships they win there are meaningless, and hardly even a footnote, if that, in the career achievents. The occasional one goes that bit younger. Maybe early 30s. Smith is the equivalent. Effectively calling time on his career - but for the not insignificant point of the majors. But like the occasional footballer who is called back from the states to play for his country in a Euros or world cup, its a rare opportunity to play serious football again, and they are generally well 9f the top flight level.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its like footballers going to play in China or the US. Serious ones do it at 37 or so when their playing days in the top flight are done, and the medals and legacy in the game written. So they cash in for a few years. But and cups or championships they win there are meaningless, and hardly even a footnote, if that, in the career achievents. The occasional one goes that bit younger. Maybe early 30s. Smith is the equivalent. Effectively calling time on his career - but for the not insignificant point of the majors. But like the occasional footballer who is called back from the states to play for his country in a Euros or world cup, its a rare opportunity to play serious football again, and they are generally well 9f the top flight level.
		
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Good time to go, Major golf tournaments are been won by 20 somethings now, ots a young man's game these days.

Plenty of top players yet to win a big one yet so no big deal.

Personally I don't think there is a single player the game would would miss if they moved one way or the other. Let's be honest the game doesn't have a superstar like Tiger in his prime.


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## JamesR (Aug 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Good time to go, Major golf tournaments are been won by 20 somethings now, ots a young man's game these days.

Plenty of top players yet to win a big one yet so no big deal.

Personally I don't think there is a single player the game would would miss if they moved one way or the other. Let's be honest the game doesn't have a superstar like Tiger in his prime.
		
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I would miss a few - Rory, Spieth being the main ones.


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## Wilson (Aug 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			He actually got given the win rather than won it.
He’s bottled majors for 8 years,that’s his legacy,probably one of the most talented golfers ,who has massively bombed in majors.
A man who calls others greedy but shows how money motivates him,he really didn’t give a poop about that tournament,the same as in 2015 when he was skipping around the fairway.
He’s become a spokesman for the tour and how good it is,but players are still leaving.
Although it’s stabilising there is a place for two tours,yet some can’t get to grips with it.
He failed to shout Fore yesterday twice,why,it’s an automatic shout,is it above him?
Good golfer,total hypocrite imo.
		
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Are you aware he's won 4 Majors already? Did SS let Rory know on the 1st he was going to give the event to him?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 30, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			He’s becoming very boring now imo.
		
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Rory or Mel? 🤔


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Good time to go, Major golf tournaments are been won by 20 somethings now, ots a young man's game these days.

Plenty of top players yet to win a big one yet so no big deal.

Personally I don't think there is a single player the game would would miss if they moved one way or the other. Let's be honest the game doesn't have a superstar like Tiger in his prime.
		
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No single player, true. Thats why its the number of players that defect to Saudi that is important. If Smith is the last, then the PGAT holds the victory. LIV will look like a par 3 tournament, and its game over for them and only a matter of time until some diplomatic withdrawal can be engineered. But if another 3 or 4 of the current top 20 jump, then it is contest on, forces divided, and a bit of loss for everyone. It does seem a war LIV has no chance of winning. They just arent going to get enough of the top players to be credible, and 50-100 rankers will not cut it for viewer interest without the top names.


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## slowhand (Aug 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			He actually got given the win rather than won it.
		
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Really? Considering he shot the best 72 hole aggregate score of the entire field (17 under, beating Sungjae Im by 1 shot), as well as overcoming a 6-shot deficit caused by the handicapping system, I find your comment rather specious


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## rksquire (Aug 30, 2022)

The PGA Tour 'changes', endorsed by McIlroy et al, could easily have been reported with the headline 'Death of the DPWT'.  Whilst we all laugh at GNs ridiculousness (& the laughter is justified), he's not wrong - change has been accelerated and the enticement is $$$, it does feel somewhat rushed and at least partially plagiarized (very loosely speaking).  Of course, the announcement makes no reference to the strategic alliance (joke) and it appears, going by Rahms comments, some 'top' European golfers haven't been consulted.  McIlroy isn't walking a fine line with his European background - he's all in with the US of A.

Why was Rickie Fowler at the meeting? Surely dressing in orange no longer is enough to be interesting.   If he'd went to LIV (and it would have been a good move for him!) he would roundly have been called a 'has-been'.  Yet, here he is, jumping in a car with Tiger as the driver (brave or stupid?), to attend a meeting that much higher ranked players weren't invited too.  Weird.  He must have some photos of JT, Spieth etc. from those Spring Break holidays.

Hideki - the actual power player when it comes to international markets.  From various sources it does seem there is an offer from LIV (from a business perspective this makes perfect sense); it also seems the PGA Tour recognize his value (from a business perspective this makes perfect sense) and so, moreso than Smith, the PGA Tour are putting an offer in front of Hideki where he is rewarded over and above the other changes announced.

On a sidenote but LIV related so think it's okay here - the Tour Championship format is a total gimmick, and had it been conceived by an Australian I can imagine the thoughts.  The starting positions are nonsense.  The prizemoney is basically rewarding guys who have already won a ton of money with a ton more money.  The 30 players all get ranking points, but not from the actual official final leaderboard - confusing & contrived.  (That said, I very much enjoyed the golf and the fact McIlroy came from '10' back after his first 2 holes on day 1; didn't really enjoy the rhetoric of the last day being the best players going toe to toe - Shuffler wasn't really at it on Sunday).  The best player in the world this year (by the OGWR new system) did win it.... but he didn't win anything 'important' this year, apart from, maybe, Jay Monahan's heart!


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

If it’s all about the ranking then those relative ‘no-name’ currently riding-high in the rankings golfers should have been at the meeting….and not Rickie Fowler 🤪

If it’s all about who ‘moves the needle’ to quote the PGA Tour’s PIP initiative — then like it or not but that’s what it is in professional sport these days….and that’s why Fowler was there.

So, that accepted, to claim LIV is over and PGA has primacy is absurd. Bryson, Bubba, Brooks, Garcia, Reed (villains are needed!), DJ and Cameron Smith is a significant haul amongst advertisers and in the eyes of the sporting / casual golfing public. To an objective observer, the changes made by the PGA Tour make it a bit of a mockery. 

And LIV is not appealing either. 


Solution is to treat it all as a bad joke. Neither side or ‘tribe’ (it’s become v tribal) has come out well…that includes Rory and Westwood with their constant jibes


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

Wilson said:



			Are you aware he's won 4 Majors already? Did SS let Rory know on the 1st he was going to give the event to him?
		
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4 majors is a massive underachievement for a player of Rory’s ability.
He’s bottled more than 4


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If it’s all about the ranking then those relative ‘no-name’ currently riding-high in the rankings golfers should have been at the meeting….and not Rickie Fowler 🤪

If it’s all about who ‘moves the needle’ to quote the PGA Tour’s PIP initiative — then like it or not but that’s what it is in professional sport these days….and that’s why Fowler was there.

So, that accepted, to claim LIV is over and PGA has primacy is absurd. Bryson, Bubba, Brooks, Garcia, Reed (villains are needed!), DJ and Cameron Smith is a significant haul amongst advertisers and in the eyes of the sporting / casual golfing public. To an objective observer, the changes made by the PGA Tour make it a bit of a mockery.

And LIV is not appealing either.


Solution is to treat it all as a bad joke. Neither side or ‘tribe’ (it’s become v tribal) has come out well…that includes Rory and Westwood with their constant jibes
		
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The only winners from all this is a small number of players who are going to be a lot richer - either from the LIV payouts or the increased money the PGA are giving 

Image rights it seems a big one for US sport- not sure how the team sports work but the PGAT have all the image rights and the PIP ( which I think is a joke ) was created to try and satisfy the likes of Mickleson who were fighting for more image rights and more money 

And then LIV come in throwing money all over the place and the players are going to leap on that and then it’s just got very messy from then 

The sniping , the insults - each LIV fan on social media coming from the same script and every day there is something from them pointing fingers at the PGAT or Monahan or Pelly etc - they have a lack of awareness of the issues they are creating - the PGAT is far from perfect and has issues but the idea that LIV is the shining knight to rescue golf is just as absurd 

Right now the professional sport is a mess and people looking from outside but just be scratching their heads - GN has always wanted to destabilise the PGAT and right now he has been given the ammunition to provide that


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Rory or Mel? 🤔
		
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That is blatant trolling mate, give it a rest.


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## Depreston (Aug 30, 2022)

It's all a bit of a mess tbh 

Cam Smith is massive though first real signing of an in form player.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

slowhand said:



			Really? Considering he shot the best 72 hole aggregate score of the entire field (17 under, beating Sungjae Im by 1 shot), as well as overcoming a 6-shot deficit caused by the handicapping system, I find your comment rather specious
		
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You believe whatever you want 
He didn’t win it Scheffler blew a 6 shot lead,hardly a regular occurrence.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Wilson said:



			Are you aware he's won 4 Majors already? Did SS let Rory know on the 1st he was going to give the event to him?
		
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When it comes to Rory there are a number in the trench’s when it comes to opinion - bottler is a common one and when he does win most of the time the opinion is that he was “gifted” the win . Rory will rarely get any credit when it comes to his golf ? Not sure if it’s jealousy or they just enjoy him not winning


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## Bobthesock (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes to Rory there are a number in the trench’s when it comes to opinion - bottler is a common one and when he does win most of the time the opinion is that he was “gifted” the win . Rory will rarely get any credit when it comes to his golf ? Not sure if it’s jealousy or they just enjoy him not winning
		
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McIlroy is the Andy Murray of golf. I'm not bothered when he wins just find it hillarious when he bottles it. This year's open will go down as one of the biggest sporting flops of recent years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			McIlroy is the Andy Murray of golf. I'm not bothered when he wins just find it hillarious when he bottles it. This year's open will go down as one of the biggest sporting flops of recent years.
		
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In what way was a it a “flop” ? No credit at all to Smiths stunning play during the middle of the round. Rory still went round the last round under par 🤷‍♂️ How is that a bottle or a flop ?

Sometimes it seems some just want to look at the negative- Smith won the open with a stunning final round - nothing to do with anyone bottling or flopping


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## Bobthesock (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In what way was a it a “flop” ? No credit at all to Smiths stunning play during the middle of the round. Rory still went round the last round under par 🤷‍♂️ How is that a bottle or a flop ?

Sometimes it seems some just want to look at the negative- Smith won the open with a stunning final round - nothing to do with anyone bottling or flopping
		
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The guy needed an eagle on the 18th and didn't even go for the green! It's not just Smith who beat him either. The other Cameron did. Unlucky rory


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			The guy needed an eagle on the 18th and didn't even go for the green! It's not just Smith who beat him either. The other Cameron did. Unlucky rory
		
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He did go for the green 🤷‍♂️ The ball landed on the upslope which killed it and then he tried to chip which is why he didn’t get the birdie 🤷‍♂️

But he didn’t bottle anything or flop


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			You believe whatever you want
He didn’t win it Scheffler blew a 6 shot lead,hardly a regular occurrence.
		
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Unless your name is Greg 😉


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## Orikoru (Aug 30, 2022)

I don't understand some of the stuff Rory comes out with.

_"I hate what it's doing to the game of golf. It's going to be hard for me to stomach going to Wentworth in a couple of weeks' time and seeing 18 of them there. That just doesn't sit right with me"_

I mean, has he genuinely fallen out with guys like Poulter and Westwood, who I imagine he would have been good friends with, over this?? Just because they chose to earn their money elsewhere? I find it a bit baffling.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			The guy needed an eagle on the 18th and didn't even go for the green! It's not just Smith who beat him either. The other Cameron did. Unlucky rory
		
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Tell us you know nothing about golf without telling us you know nothing about golf! 

It’s amusing when people against LiV are called out as PGA Tour shills, when a lot of the pro LiV brigade are blatantly just trolling or morons. (Not all of you, just some 😗)


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564598847594266625


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564601542736486402


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564602854018514944


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 30, 2022)

And Joacquin Nieman as well an excellent young golfer. It's a real shame how this is splintering the game. The Saudis have no interest in growing or developing the game. They just want in at the top and the rest can feed into it. 
That can be levelled at the PGA but it does allow routes in and supports that activity


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564604105313624064


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564600102873927680


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Anirban Lahiri also making the switch, as per the LIV golf website.


No surprises of course there, all the names had been rumoured for several days.


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

In other news...
Ryder Cup 
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/lu...low&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

No specific mention of 'the naughty ones'


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Unless your name is Greg 😉
		
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I think we can safely say Faldo was given that.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			In other news...
Ryder Cup
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/lu...low&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

No specific mention of 'the naughty ones'
		
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6 picks - LIV players still competing on the DPWT, I think we can read between the lines


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Anirban Lahiri also making the switch, as per the LIV golf website.


No surprises of course there, all the names had been rumoured for several days.
		
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What’s happened to number 7 and the real big target Matsyuma ?

So it’s just Smith who is a player right at the top of his game and worldwide known ( a proper coup ) and 5 replaceables ?



IainP said:



			In other news...
Ryder Cup
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/lu...low&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

No specific mention of 'the naughty ones'
		
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Looks interesting and the 6 picks seems more in line than what the US team do - getting my head around it and it seems to put more emphasis on the big ET events and for players to attend.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s happened to number 7 and the *real big target Matsyuma* ?

So it’s just Smith who is a player right at the top of his game and worldwide known ( a proper coup ) and 5 replaceables ?



Looks interesting and the 6 picks seems more in line than what the US team do - getting my head around it and it seems to put more emphasis on the big ET events and for players to attend.
		
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Don't know, maybe he'll be there in 2023 - we will have to wait and see I guess. 

Think you're being a bit disingenuous to those 5 golfers there as well mate. They are all relevant golfers, and they all fit into the LIV golf ethos of building up a worldwide product with a worldwide audience. Hedeki would of course have been a big target for those very same reasons.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			6 picks - LIV players still competing on the DPWT, I think we can read between the lines 

Click to expand...

I’m sure you mean that you can read between someone imaginary lines and find some way to bring LIV into it 

I’m pretty much sure without any doubt that no LIV player will be at the Ryder Cup next year 


Mel Smooth said:



			Don't know, maybe he'll be there in 2023 - we will have to wait and see I guess.

Think you're being a bit disingenuous to those 5 golfers there as well mate. They are all relevant golfers, and they all fit into the LIV golf ethos of building up a worldwide product with a worldwide audience. Hedeki would of course have been a big target for those very same reasons.
		
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They are your standard PGA golfer that will be replaced by someone else 

Each one is being picked because of their nationality as opposed to their golfing ability 

They are only relevant because where they are from.  The players wont mind - being paid handsomely for their nationality


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m sure you mean that you can read between someone imaginary lines and find some way to bring LIV into it

I’m pretty much sure without any doubt that no LIV player will be at the Ryder Cup next year


They are your standard PGA golfer that will be replaced by someone else

Each one is being picked because of their nationality as opposed to their golfing ability

They are only relevant because where they are from.  The players wont mind - being paid handsomely for their nationality
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564614007482421258

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564614009655025675


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564614007482421258

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564614009655025675

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🤷‍♂️ What does that have to do with what I posted 🤷‍♂️ Comments from February 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ What does that have to do with what I posted 🤷‍♂️ Comments from February 🤷‍♂️
		
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The first tweet represents your unwavering view that LIV players leaving the PGA Tour doesn't weaken the PGA Tour.

The 2nd tweet demonstrates that it most definitely does.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I think that’s probably rubbish and I suspect your aware of that.
Not a second?
		
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…as it happens I’ve not watched one second of the actual golf being played.  Watched a couple of news reports on it be abuse they popped up, but that’s it.  Because interest in it I have none.  That apart, a closed field for all events and they want these events to qualify for World whatever points…nah…


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The first tweet represents your unwavering view that LIV players leaving the PGA Tour doesn't weaken the PGA Tour.

The 2nd tweet demonstrates that it most definitely does.
		
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The first tweet is irrelevant 🤷‍♂️ It’s Rory’s view that LIV would struggle to get enough players to go to get 48 players back in Feb 

Neither tweet mentions the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

Those “17” will be replaced by others 

The talent in the sport will keep coming through 

And “top 3 in Players” - what have two of them done since ( not smith ) 

And “Last years tour championships” - this years is more relevant and was more than good enough with those 11 replaced 

99% of the players that have gone to LIV are players that really don’t hit the radar for most - they are either middle of the road pros , players at the end of their careers or once that haven’t really taken any limelight but ticked along nicely 

The likes of DJ , BDC , Koepka and Smith are the ones that hit a tour but again the tour will easily recover from losing those players and move on


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

Let’s be honest here LP has more spin than any politician in history.
Could argue the toss for weeks on end about something he has absolutely no interest in.
Rory can put his foot in anything and he certainly has previous.
Smith going is massive ,and to diss the others is just stupidlty.
Matsuyama would have been monstrous,could still happen.
However what we don’t know is what is being offered to players to stay on the PGA tour?Yet.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…as it happens I’ve not watched one second of the actual golf being played.  Watched a couple of news reports on it be abuse they popped up, but that’s it.  Because interest in it I have none.  That apart, a closed field for all events and they want these events to qualify for World whatever points…nah…
		
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Enough interest to comment though.


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

Like any new business, it takes time to build it up, the PGA have countered it by making more prize money available, too little too late for some it seems, Jay Monoghan has let down his players as there boss, same as Keith Pelley in my opinion.
Cameron Smith is obviously a massive signing, but the rest are very, very good players and on their day capable of winning any tournament.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*99% of the players that have gone to LIV are players that really don’t hit the radar for most* -
		
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Comedy Gold Phil.


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## hovis (Aug 30, 2022)

It seems that liv could sign all of the world top 50 and some on here would still be in denial.  The players that have gone to liv are all (well most). Capable of winning a golf tournament and I will miss seeing them tee it up against other players from different tours.    If I was to predict the outcome then I'd say a truce will be made and all the tours can be friends.
This can't go on that's for sure


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			It seems that liv could sign all of the world top 50 and some on here would still be in denial.  The players that have gone to liv are all (well most). Capable of winning a golf tournament and I will miss seeing them tee it up against other players from different tours.    If I was to predict the outcome then I'd say a truce will be made and all the tours can be friends.
This can't go on that's for sure
		
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Almost every player on the PGA and DP World Tours are capable of winning tournaments such is the depth of talent.

Unless you are Cameron Tringale.


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## Dando (Aug 30, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			The guy needed an eagle on the 18th and didn't even go for the green! It's not just Smith who beat him either. The other Cameron did. Unlucky rory
		
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡


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## Depreston (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			It seems that liv could sign all of the world top 50 and some on here would still be in denial.  The players that have gone to liv are all (well most). Capable of winning a golf tournament and I will miss seeing them tee it up against other players from different tours.    If I was to predict the outcome then I'd say a truce will be made and all the tours can be friends.
This can't go on that's for sure
		
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I can't see what a truce would look like mind


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

If you have even a passing interest in proffesional golf, there are easily 20 names on this list that you are familiar with - the argument that they are no loss to the PGA Tour needs to go in the bin.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564627964872073216


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## Oddsocks (Aug 30, 2022)

Noticing a lot of fuss about the Ryder cup, at this rate joe long before LIV can host their own version of the Ryder cup with a decent competitive team in each side?

 PPV event……


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## Depreston (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you have even a passing interest in proffesional golf, there are easily 20 names on this list that you are familiar with - the argument that they are no loss to the PGA Tour needs to go in the bin.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564627964872073216

Click to expand...

Big week... No competition and some big signings be interesting to see how this 250+ million dollar investment for the week relates to people tuning in... it's fine saying they're no loss but if the world isn't watching what's the point?


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## rksquire (Aug 30, 2022)

No surprises with the new announcements, no surprise how the narrative will be spun from both 'sides'.  

I will be genuinely sad to see Smith go; puts a lot of organizations into very tricky positions with his exemptions going forward, not to mention that given his achievements this year he was / is very marketable as the Open Champion - he's a guy who can do it over 4 rounds and in the Majors.  With all due respect, the LIV field is more than decent and even though Smith's ranking will now go down, I am slightly disappointed he'll not defend the Players and his defense of the Open Championship is now under a cloud.  Worth noting that with Lahiri now signing, LIV have the top 3 players from the Players this year - the 'fifth' Major, strongest field, hardest to win etc.

The golf landscape is changing, the PGATs response is to tighten it's stranglehold on world golf and throw money at it; the DPWT is dying before our eyes and seemingly doing very little about it, players are saying and doing stupid things that are getting equal amounts of praise and disdain, the Ryder Cup & Presidents Cup will be impacted but the show(s) will go on.   LIV will continue to unsettle players but at some point realise their USP has a limit and they'll have to find a way to gain acceptance in the wider golf community.  The whole thing is a total -show.  And the PGAT can blame GN & LIV; but they also have to look at themselves - apart from the vocal PM, some of the membership have been unhappy for a long time.  From the outside, LIV is a dark cloud hanging over the PGAT and its players - the constant questions, even after winning, means it's not going away.  LIV on the other hand hasn't grabbed the imagination or viewers just yet - but for the moment they plough on carefree, even with serious question marks about the format, field, team aspect etc.  I still don't think Smith tips the balance (Southern hemisphere territories may feel differently); it just makes certain conversations more difficult.


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Almost every player on the PGA and DP World Tours are capable of winning tournaments such is the depth of talent.

Unless you are Cameron Tringale.
		
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100% right, it’s fine margins at that level, to dismiss players as has been’s is poor in my opinion, the boy that won on the DPWT on Sunday, I’d actually never heard of him but I’m sure most people know Matt Wallace (for his temper if nothing else 😂😂) 
Boy that won deserved it though, on their day or weekend, they are all capable players.


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## Oddsocks (Aug 30, 2022)

the biggest reason for signing smith surely has to be the negotiation power  he brings against co existing and potentially ranking points on the LIV tour


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## Depreston (Aug 30, 2022)

rksquire said:



			No surprises with the new announcements, no surprise how the narrative will be spun from both 'sides'. 

I will be genuinely sad to see Smith go; puts a lot of organizations into very tricky positions with his exemptions going forward, not to mention that given his achievements this year he was / is very marketable as the Open Champion - he's a guy who can do it over 4 rounds and in the Majors.  With all due respect, the LIV field is more than decent and even though Smith's ranking will now go down, I am slightly disappointed he'll not defend the Players and his defense of the Open Championship is now under a cloud.  Worth noting that with Lahiri now signing, LIV have the top 3 players from the Players this year - the 'fifth' Major, strongest field, hardest to win etc.

The golf landscape is changing, the PGATs response is to tighten it's stranglehold on world golf and throw money at it; the DPWT is dying before our eyes and seemingly doing very little about it, players are saying and doing stupid things that are getting equal amounts of praise and disdain, the Ryder Cup & Presidents Cup will be impacted but the show(s) will go on.   LIV will continue to unsettle players but at some point realise their USP has a limit and they'll have to find a way to gain acceptance in the wider golf community.  The whole thing is a total -show.  And the PGAT can blame GN & LIV; but they also have to look at themselves - apart from the vocal PM, some of the membership have been unhappy for a long time.  From the outside, LIV is a dark cloud hanging over the PGAT and its players - the constant questions, even after winning, means it's not going away.  LIV on the other hand hasn't grabbed the imagination or viewers just yet - but for the moment they plough on carefree, even with serious question marks about the format, field, team aspect etc.  I still don't think Smith tips the balance (Southern hemisphere territories may feel differently); it just makes certain conversations more difficult.
		
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yes it's a good summary.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Big week... No competition and some big signings be interesting to see how this 250+ million dollar investment for the week relates to people tuning in... it's fine saying they're no loss but if the world isn't watching what's the point?
		
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This very thread demonstrates the intense interest - I'm not even sure there's a way of collating the viewing figures as the broadcasts go out on multiple platforms and TV links now - but the interest is definitely there.


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## hovis (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			but the interest is definitely there.
		
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Is it though?  In my entire golf circle (and its big) I don't know a single person watching liv golf.  Mainly because most of them don't know how to stream YouTube to a TV.   I have watched a few holes but I just couldn't get into it.  I desperately want to because I love watching golf.  The only way I can explain it is its like watching England play a friendly.  Its not worth anything!!!


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## Depreston (Aug 30, 2022)

The interest and discussion is in the arrivals and departures though the actual golf is bottom of the list on the thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Comedy Gold Phil.




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Why ? Is that the only response? Do you need to go and see what the LIV bots are saying ?

Are there any other “stellar” names beyond those 4 that are relevant and you would expect to see around the top 10 and regularly chasing big wins and majors ?




hovis said:



			It seems that liv could sign all of the world top 50 and some on here would still be in denial.  The players that have gone to liv are all (well most). Capable of winning a golf tournament and I will miss seeing them tee it up against other players from different tours.    If I was to predict the outcome then I'd say a truce will be made and all the tours can be friends.
This can't go on that's for sure
		
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But they haven’t signed all the worlds top 50 and “IF” they did then as with anything opinions would change 

But they have 1 from the top ten now 

Another 1 player from the top 20 

Another 10 from the top 50 but the players are already tumbling down the rankings

LIV right now only can’t fit 48 players into their tournaments and most of those players are from outside the top 50 in the world with some even further away 

There is no chance that any “truce” will happen - that just benefits the LIV , the PGAT is big and strong enough to more than get past losing the players they have done. 

When LIV out of their 48 have over half in the top 50 and at least 10 in the top 20 then there is some serious damage going on

This weekend showed that PGAT will outstrip any LIV event and hopefully the upcoming ET events will do as well


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			Is it though?  In my entire golf circle (and its big) I don't know a single person watching liv golf.  Mainly because most of them *don't know how to stream YouTube to a TV. *  I have watched a few holes but I just couldn't get into it.  I desperately want to because I love watching golf.  The only way I can explain it is its like watching England play a friendly.  Its not worth anything!!!
		
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Tell them to watch this video, although they'll have to watch it on something other than the TV they want to connect initally ;-)

Also, if you have virgin or Sky, the You Tube app will be on there already - it really doesn't take too much to figure it out.


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## Imurg (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			Is it though?  In my entire golf circle (and its big) I don't know a single person watching liv golf.  Mainly because most of them don't know how to stream YouTube to a TV.   I have watched a few holes but I just couldn't get into it.  I desperately want to because I love watching golf.  The only way I can explain it is its like watching England play a friendly.  Its not worth anything!!!
		
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And this, for me, is the prime argument against LIV...
It doesn't mean anything.. it's exhibition golf, there's no prestige, there's no adding your name to a 100 year old Championship...all you get is even more money.....
Bottom line..again...if they weren't being paid many, many millions of dollars they wouldn't be there....


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			...all you get is even more money....
		
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Don't forget they all tee off and finish at the same time; and only play 3 rounds. So it's mainly about playing less golf to spend more time with family and not only about the money........!!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why ? Is that the only response? Do you need to go and see what the LIV bots are saying ?

l
		
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Phil, the LIV bot line is beyond dreary, maybe I should respond by referring you to Liverpoolphilistine, because when it comes to proffesional golf, it seems that is where you sit?

All you try to do on here is put down people that don't agree with you, as repeating somebody elses views - well that's all you are doing, repeating the views of the pro PGA standpoint.

I made a point about Ryder Cup qualification, and you say I wanted to drag LIV into it, and yet look, Golf.com seem to think my point is valid, so quite why you can't is beyond me.

https://golf.com/news/could-liv-golfers-qualify-europe-ryder-cup-qualification/


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*This very thread demonstrates the intense interest* - I'm not even sure there's a way of collating the viewing figures as the broadcasts go out on multiple platforms and TV links now - but the interest is definitely there.
		
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A few middle aged blokes arguing on a form does not equal intense interest 😂

If there was any real interest the viewing figures would be much higher. In the UK alone there are reported to be 5.3 million adults who play golf. 

LiV gets a few 10s of thousand views. Given it’s free to watch you would except more if there was genuine interest.

As has been said. People just don’t want to watch meaningless exhibition golf.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Don't forget they all tee off and finish at the same time; and only play 3 rounds. So it's mainly about playing less golf to spend more time with family and not only about the money........!! 

Click to expand...

No. It’s all about better treatment for the caddies.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			Is it though?  In my entire golf circle (and its big) I don't know a single person watching liv golf.  Mainly because most of them don't know how to stream YouTube to a TV.   I have watched a few holes but I just couldn't get into it.  I desperately want to because I love watching golf.  The only way I can explain it is its like watching England play a friendly.  Its not worth anything!!!
		
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It would be interesting to know how much golf people actually watch?

How many people actually sit down and watch every golf tournament on TV in general? I guess there might be some. However, I'd have thought most would definitely sit down to watch the Majors, and probably even the WGC's, Ryder Cup and a small handful of other tournaments throughout the year. The prestigious ones, and events like the Fedex playoffs. What is it that sparks this interest in these events, and not some bog standard event in January? I'd imagine it will be because they often have virtually all the best players, and they are playing for something steeped in history. Their performances also have some purpose outside just the tournament itself, with world ranking points, FedEx points available (and this is even true for the less popular events).

So, what does LIV golf offer television viewing fans that will spark their interest? Yes, they have a bunch of decent players, but the only thing they are playing for is lining their own pockets. I don't think that is the sort of thing that excites fans? All the other things it is doing are just plain gimmicky, like the team event, 54 holes and shotgun start. Been covered before, but all it does is actually provide significantly less broadcasting time to fans, as everything is condensed into a shorter time period. Honestly, in terms of fans, who really cares who wins the next LIV event!? It is completely hollow.

I can't gauge popularity from this forum, as regular posters are going to be hugely biased one way or another. However, I've not heard any interest amongst my friends and club members about the golf, in comparison to interest in Majors, WGC's, etc. The only talking point has nothing to do with the golf, but the politics about who is going to go and how much money they are getting. So, there is an interest in the impact on the professional golfing world, rather than any interest whatsoever on the playing of the golf itself.

So, I can't see LIV golf being any more popular than a low key regular tour event, from a fans perspective. Even less so, if the final results have no longer term impacts on the players standing in any form of ranking points (world, Fedex, race to Dubai, etc) or exemptions to future events. So, if it is never going to get anywhere near as much attention as the Majors, WGCs and Ryder Cup, then I reckon LIV is just going to end up being a bit rubbish. Certainly not going to generate the sort of money to continue bankrolling the players over the longer term


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This very thread demonstrates the intense interest - I'm not even sure there's a way of collating the viewing figures as the broadcasts go out on multiple platforms and TV links now - but the interest is definitely there.
		
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This thread has virtually no interest in the play, but there is lots of speculation on who they have "bought now." All the chatter is about the mercenary nature of the circus and the strong whiff of hypocrisy from the players who have taken the cash. 

Oh, except for one person on here defending this "ground breaking golf tour!"


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This very thread demonstrates the intense interest - I'm not even sure there's a way of collating the viewing figures as the broadcasts go out on multiple platforms and TV links now - but the interest is definitely there.
		
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The thread, and other reporting demonstrates the intense interest in the Saudi v PGAt dogfight.  It doesnt indicate anything about interest in LIV golf per se.


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

In fairness the problem will and is the format, it’s maybe fine for the odd tournament etc, but not all the time.
I’ll only watch golf if it’s a major or in Scotland normally, unless I’m home alone and it will be on in the background, if they can get a TV deal, you’d think that could be a game changer.


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

I would say pgat feeling they have won this, at least for the moment, if thats the extend of the Saudi push. If Smith is the last to go, then the establishment centre has held. And Liv becomes a backwater.


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## rksquire (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The first tweet is irrelevant 🤷‍♂️ It’s Rory’s view that LIV would struggle to get enough players to go to get 48 players back in Feb

Neither tweet mentions the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

*Those “17” will be replaced by others*

The talent in the sport will keep coming through

And “top 3 in Players” - what have two of them done since ( not smith )

*And “Last years tour championships” - this years is more relevant and was more than good enough with those 11 replaced*

99% of the players that have gone to LIV are players that really don’t hit the radar for most - they are either middle of the road pros , players at the end of their careers or once that haven’t really taken any limelight but ticked along nicely

*The likes of DJ , BDC , Koepka and Smith are the ones that hit a tour but again the tour will easily recover from losing those players and move on*

Click to expand...

The PGAT has a limited set of what are actually the best players - albeit using what is essentially a self serving system to 'manufacture' those best players - but they also claim to have the best players and fields in the world.  It shouldn't be that easy to replace the one's they've lost - if it is it's essentially admitting they're fillers.  The new plan is to have the 'select' play more often (for sponsorship, relevancy, viewing figures etc.) with the other 130 still providing fill; over the course of a season, a potential new 'star' may emerge and so the cycle can be repeated. 

It's disingenuous to suggest 99% don't hit the radar for most in LIV - of the 70 or so names so far in LIV I'm definitely interested in more than 0.7 (round up to 1 actual person!) of them; you could say 99% of any field in the PGAT don't hit the radar for most - how many of a 156 player field are people genuinely interested in? William Buhl? Callum Davison? Jaeger? Hensby?  A full field PGAT event has an enormous amount of unknown players who get 0% airtime, and to be honest I'm delighted about that because I have 0% interest in them.  Basically, the "17" who have gone might be past it / useless / other derogatory term, but they are known; the replacements won't be known, at least initially, so the fields are weaker.

It does feel like I'm pro-LIV but (honestly!) I'm not - I've an interest in the spectacle, I'm not anti-LIV either though because I think competition is good.  I'm not pro-PGAT either, I think they've stamped all over the DPWT and poached players from Europe for years to feather their own nest, which is now under threat, and I don't much like how they're dealing with it.  I watch because I like golf and McIlroy, but it is concerning the nonsense he comes out with - it's clear GN & LIV are now living rent free in his head and he appears like a puppet for the PGAT.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			This thread has virtually no interest in the play, but there is lots of speculation on who they have "bought now." All the chatter is about the mercenary nature of the circus and the strong whiff of hypocrisy from the players who have taken the cash.

Oh, except for one person on here defending this "ground breaking golf tour!"  

Click to expand...

Three events in, 6000 posts - the thread was always going to be dominated by the inception of the series and rammifications across the other tours. Be honest, it's a pretty empty argument to make against LIV at this stage.


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			In fairness the problem will and is the format, it’s maybe fine for the odd tournament etc, but not all the time.
I’ll only watch golf if it’s a major or in Scotland normally, unless I’m home alone and it will be on in the background, if they can get a TV deal, you’d think that could be a game changer.
		
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The need top players. It looks like they havent succeeded on that front now. The handful of names will not a tour make. It makes the score 15-5 in the PGATs favour.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And this, for me, is the prime argument against LIV...
It doesn't mean anything.. it's exhibition golf, there's no prestige, there's no adding your name to a 100 year old Championship...all you get is even more money.....
Bottom line..again...if they weren't being paid many, many millions of dollars they wouldn't be there....
		
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There isn't prestige in many PGA tournaments and as for the last line...........why do golfers go from all around the world to play on the PGA tour? It's money, same reason. The FedEx is a fabulous example, a contrived, meaningless bit of tosh with an enormous cheque at the end. 

There are many reasons to criticise the LIV concept but throwing money into the mix as though the PGA is a pure concept just doesn't stack up.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There isn't prestige in many PGA tournaments and as for the last line...........why do golfers go from all around the world to play on the PGA tour? It's money, same reason. The FedEx is a fabulous example, a contrived, meaningless bit of tosh with an enormous cheque at the end.

There are many reasons to criticise the LIV concept but throwing money into the mix as though the PGA is a pure concept just doesn't stack up.
		
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If you took the money away from all the PGA events, including the 4 majors, there's probably only The Masters and The Open, that would still attract anything like a full field with players comepeting for the prestige of winning. The other two would still be relevant of course, but not as much imho.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you took the money away from all the PGA events, including the 4 majors, there's probably only The Masters and The Open, that would still attract anything like a full field with players comepeting for the prestige of winning. The other two would still be relevant of course, but not as much imho.
		
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What would happen if you took the money away from LIV?


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What would happen if you took the money away from LIV?
		
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What if you took money away from all tournaments 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Why did the European players start jumping ship back in the day? Why did they stop playing in national tournaments, French Open, Dutch Open, Italian Open, Spanish Open etc to play in The John Deere Classic and so on. It's always the money.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What would happen if you took the money away from LIV?
		
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Same applies to any scenario mate. If there's no financial recompense, people won't participate.


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Three events in, 6000 posts - the thread was always going to be dominated by the inception of the series and rammifications across the other tours. Be honest, it's a pretty empty argument to make against LIV at this stage.
		
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Arguing against yourself now.  As you say, 6000 posts, mostly about the insanity of the money and *virtually no mention of the 3 events*, and most folk couldn't tell you who won anyone of them.

I can see their Social Media Team saying, ooh, lots of mentions!!  But don't tell Prince Doodah its mostly negative!



Swango1980 said:



			What would happen if you took the money away from LIV?
		
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It would be like the Parrot in Monty Bloomin' Python!! 




Lord Tyrion said:



			What if you took money away from all tournaments 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Why did the European players start jumping ship back in the day? Why did they stop playing in national tournaments, French Open, Dutch Open, Italian Open, Spanish Open etc to play in The John Deere Classic and so on. It's always the money.
		
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Which bit of *Professional* golf are you not understanding?


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## Imurg (Aug 30, 2022)

Meg Maclaren ...I wish I was as articulate as she is.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What if you took money away from all tournaments 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Why did the European players start jumping ship back in the day? Why did they stop playing in national tournaments, French Open, Dutch Open, Italian Open, Spanish Open etc to play in The John Deere Classic and so on. It's always the money.
		
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Spot on.
They all chase the money.
Rory is apparently worth $170m,he doesn’t need any more money.
Will he still sign new endorsement deals to make more money?
Of course he will.
Does that make him greedy?
🤷‍♂️


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 30, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Rory or Mel? 🤔
		
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Rory


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## RichA (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If you have even a passing interest in proffesional golf, there are easily 20 names on this list that you are familiar with - the argument that they are no loss to the PGA Tour needs to go in the bin.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564627964872073216

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I'm a keen golfer with only a passing interest in pro golf. I watch the last couple of hours of each major plus the odd bit here and there and Ryder Cup highlights. For the record, I knew 15 of the names on the list before the LIV talk started. I think I recognise half a dozen more only because of this thread. In terms of faces I would recognise, we are probably in single figures.
I don't really care about LIV or the tours and I don't really care that much about the majors. I've always watched the odd bit of golf because it's great to see the sporting genius of a Nicklaus, Ballesteros or Woods.
I mostly just care about golf as a participation sport and LIV seems to care less about that than the other organisations.
I rarely hear pro golf talked about at my golf club and I've only heard LIV mentioned once, when a friend couldn't give away tickets to Centurion that somebody had given to him.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			Which bit of *Professional* golf are you not understanding? 

Click to expand...

I understand every bit, it's why I can see why players move between tours and why I have no time for the hypocrisy of the PGA and the comments about liv money. If you check my post again you'll see I agree it's about money and pretty much has been for decades.


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And this, for me, is the prime argument against LIV...
It doesn't mean anything.. it's exhibition golf, there's no prestige, there's no adding your name to a 100 year old Championship...all you get is even more money.....
Bottom line..again...if they weren't being paid many, many millions of dollars they wouldn't be there....
		
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I do not think this point makes sense as there is nothing unique about LIV golf with regards being paid to play golf —- it’s the raison d être of professional sport in the 21st century 

Rory and other non-US golfers would likely not have left the European Tour if winning at Wentworth won him the equivalent in Sterling of $18 million 


As for it ‘meaning something’, to win a prestigious event with a long, history…why not follow the Walker Cup or the Amateur Championship? That means a lot to those who compete and it is highly prestigious….why even watch a very rich professional sport, when the players are paid multiple millions at all?

There is nothing really prestigious about the majority of PGA tour events in the slightest…not compared to The Amateur Champ, The US Amateur, the majors, The Walker Cup and the Ryder Cup 


And I’d say that National champs and opens like the Aussie Open or The Italian, Spanish etc are more prestigious than the John Deere Classic and the majority of dull events that make up the PGA TOUR (IF you took away its millions..)


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

It’s always about the money, it’s there job at the end of the day.
The European tour has been on a massive downward spiral since all Europes ‘best’ players have went across to the PGA to earn more money.


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## pokerjoke (Aug 30, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Spot on.
They all chase the money.
Rory is apparently worth $170m,he doesn’t need any more money.
Will he still sign new endorsement deals to make more money?
Of course he will.
Does that make him greedy?
🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

put it this way if he was worth 10m he would be sprinting over.


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And this, for me, is the prime argument against LIV...
It doesn't mean anything.. it's exhibition golf, there's no prestige, *there's no adding your name to a 100 year old Championship.*..all you get is even more money.....
Bottom line..again...if they weren't being paid many, many millions of dollars they wouldn't be there....
		
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And that's fair enough.
In the spirit of debate, the "FedEx Tour Championship" has been around 16 or 4 years depending on how you count. Lots of us enjoyed Rory beating 28 players for an inordinate anount of dollars. To earn fewer ranking points than when he won the Canadian.


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## CountLippe (Aug 30, 2022)

Can anyone explain how the sportswashing works in this instance?  What is the end game for the Saudi's?

With Premier League / European football, you have enormous worldwide followings and media coverage of competitions, teams and increasingly so individual players.  There are also riches to be earned from media, tv deals etc.

With golf I just don't get it.  I can barely wrap my head around the PGA Tour being able to pay the purses they do...  Even DP World tour purses are big compared to coverage it gets.

Is it to do with the demographic of the golfer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What if you took money away from all tournaments 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Why did the European players start jumping ship back in the day? Why did they stop playing in national tournaments, French Open, Dutch Open, Italian Open, Spanish Open etc to play in The John Deere Classic and so on. It's always the money.
		
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The Europeans jumped across to gain their PGA tour card because it gave them a better chance to become a better player , also entry into Majors as the ranking points are higher on the PGAT ( at the time ) - three out of the 4 majors are on US soil so there is no better preparation playing those than playing in the US - it’s prob what stopped Monty from getting over the line - the lack of playing time on these courses

And yes playing in the US also gave them better financial security but it wasn’t the sole reason they went to the US 

And because they have your cards on both they needed to play the minimum criteria 

Those Europeans still came back for their home opens when they could by staying on the ET wouldn’t have improved them as players to the level they needed to challenge for majors etc


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## hovis (Aug 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand every bit, it's why I can see why players move between tours and why I have no time for the hypocrisy of the PGA and the comments about liv money. If you check my post again you'll see I agree it's about money and pretty much has been for decades.
		
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I'd love the know all the inside stories of the pga.  Bet its is or has been worthy of Sepp Blatter


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

CountLippe said:



			Can anyone explain how the sportswashing works in this instance?  What is the end game for the Saudi's?

With Premier League / European football, you have enormous worldwide followings and media coverage of competitions, teams and increasingly so individual players.  There are also riches to be earned from media, tv deals etc.

With golf I just don't get it.  I can barely wrap my head around the PGA Tour being able to pay the purses they do...  Even DP World tour purses are big compared to coverage it gets.

Is it to do with the demographic of the golfer?
		
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I can't. But I have read about a desire to make Saudi a 'golf destination' which apparently has a lot of money attached around it. Although like you I can't wrap my head around the sums. Probably some generic 'business' angle also.


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## hovis (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Europeans jumped across to gain their PGA tour card because it gave them a better chance to become a better player , also entry into Majors as the ranking points are higher on the PGAT ( at the time ) - three out of the 4 majors are on US soil so there is no better preparation playing those than playing in the US - it’s prob what stopped Monty from getting over the line - the lack of playing time on these courses

And yes playing in the US also gave them better financial security but it wasn’t the sole reason they went to the US 

And because they have your cards on both they needed to play the minimum criteria 

Those Europeans still came back for their home opens when they could by staying on the ET wouldn’t have improved them as players to the level they needed to challenge for majors etc
		
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Come on Phil.   They went to pga tour for money and nothing else.  Don't spout rubbish about becoming a better player and all that nonsense.  Funny how the better european tour players only return for bigger Purse ET events.  I can't blame them one bit but if it quacks like a duck and all that!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

hovis said:



			Come on Phil.   They went to pga tour for money and nothing else.  Don't spout rubbish about becoming a better player and all that nonsense.  Funny how the better european tour players only return for bigger Purse ET events.  I can't blame them one bit but if it quacks like a duck and all that!!!!
		
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How many players who play consistently on the European Tour have won a major ? In fact when was the last person to do so ? Maybe Lawrie in 99 ?

Europeans that went on to win a major after moving to the PGA

Molinari
Stenson
Rory
Rose
Stenson
Kaymer
Lowry

The prime aim for these golfers is to win majors - playing in the US gives them a better chance to do that

It’s fundamentally a harder tour , playing tougher courses and playing against the elite golfers in the game - hence why many Europeans don’t succeed over there


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many players who play consistently on the European Tour have won a major ? In fact when was the last person to do so ? Maybe Lawrie in 99 ?

Europeans that went on to win a major after moving to the PGA

Molinari
Stenson
Rory
Rose
Stenson
Kaymer
Lowry

The prime aim for these golfers is to win majors - playing in the US gives them a better chance to do that

It’s fundamentally a harder tour , playing tougher courses and playing against the elite golfers in the game - hence why many Europeans don’t succeed over there
		
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Naive 🤦‍♂️
I suppose they sign with the manufacturers because they make the best equipment rather than who offers the most money?
Or wear the watches they do because they like them the best?

It’s all about the 💰 👍🏻


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## hovis (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many players who play consistently on the European Tour have won a major ? In fact when was the last person to do so ? Maybe Lawrie in 99 ?

Europeans that went on to win a major after moving to the PGA

Molinari
Stenson
Rory
Rose
Stenson
Kaymer
Lowry

The prime aim for these golfers is to win majors - playing in the US gives them a better chance to do that

It’s fundamentally a harder tour , playing tougher courses and playing against the elite golfers in the game - hence why many Europeans don’t succeed over there
		
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Your list just proves the good players go to where the good money is.  Those players went to the USA because they where talented enough to win big events.  Why would top tier golfers who are capable of winning a major stay on the ET when they can go to America and fill their pockets?
You've made some good arguments on this thread about liv but this one is a bit too much.  The sole driver for players to go to PGA from ET is money.  Period!!!!


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

Professional sport is about money. Always has always been. 

The issue with LIV is the source, motives and methodology of those dishing it out.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Same applies to any scenario mate. If there's no financial recompense, people won't participate.
		
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Apologies. I'm not talking about players. I'm talking about fans. If you took money away from it, and you had the same playing fields, the Majors and big events would still be vastly more popular than LIV 

Therefore, money is the only thing that can keep LIV alive. Fan interest is what keeps the other golf largely alive.


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			Professional sport is about money. Always has always been.

The issue with LIV is the source, motives and methodology of those dishing it out.
		
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The same source as the woman’s tour, the same source as thousands of companies do business with, the same source that fills up your car with fuel.
You’re better than that Ian, if we want to start going down the moral code route, it could be a rough ride.


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			No. It’s all about better treatment for the caddies.
		
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 oh yes, forgot about the poor old caddies!!


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 30, 2022)

Last 24 Major Championships

12 Wins by PGA Tour Players
12 Wins by Liv Tour Players


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564638408416399369


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The same source as the woman’s tour, the same source as thousands of companies do business with, the same source that fills up your car with fuel.
You’re better than that Ian, if we want to start going down the moral code route, it could be a rough ride.
		
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Trade boosts the economy. Sponsorship of events supports the Tour, rather than trying to wreck it. 

This is just a grubby self promotion exercise to the detriment of golf. That's my objection 

I would have thought the difference was easier to distinguish.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 30, 2022)

So much has changed.. 
It was dead in the water 6 Months ago. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564614009655025675


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Last 24 Major Championships

12 Wins by PGA Tour Players
12 Wins by Liv Tour Players


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564638408416399369

Click to expand...

These are the winners on the PGA tour 

Morikawa
Thomas 
Rahm
Speith
Molinari
Tiger
Scheffler
Matsayama
Fitzpatrick
Woodland
Lowry

And these are the ones on LIV

Smith
Mickleson
DJ
BDC
Koepka
Reed
Sergio
Stenson

From the lists I’m guessing 
Woodland , Woods and Molinari will prob not get near again 

And Garcia , Mickleson, Reed , Stenson 

It’s those 4 real big guns on LIV and two are unknown in regards future wins because of their injuries - BDC doesn’t seem to be affected by his as much as Koepka


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			Trade boosts the economy.

This is just a grubby self promotion exercise to the detriment of golf.

I would have thought the difference was easier to distinguish.
		
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It’s an industry I’ve been involved in for over 15 years Ian, The detriment to golf in your opinion, what’s your thoughts on the PGA now giving bigger purses?
What’s your thoughts when the big guns come and play in only the Rolex series events?
Do you think it’s right, let’s be honest, none of these guys are hurting and still want more.


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

Split sports are always poorer for being split.

Darts and Boxing being the obvious examples


----------



## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

CountLippe said:



			Can anyone explain how the sportswashing works in this instance?  What is the end game for the Saudi's?
		
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I think it works like this : before LIV, we might have thought, Saudi - backwards misogynist dictatorship with a favouring of beheadings, ghastly. After paying Phil $250M, Saudi - lovely country, so generous to millionaire golfers, I might go there on a holiday to enjoy the sand and oil.
It has really changed my perception.


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it works like this : before LIV, we might have thought, Saudi - backwards misogynist dictatorship with a favouring of beheadings, ghastly. After paying Phil $250M, Saudi - lovely country, so generous to millionaire golfers, I might go there on a holiday to enjoy the sand and oil.
It has really changed my perception.
		
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Don’t kid yourselves that many parts of the ME and South and West Asia are too different from Saudi Arabia in some regards

The footballers and holidaymakers enjoying Dubai and Qatar might not see it, or choose not to see it..


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			These are the winners on the PGA tour

Morikawa
Thomas
Rahm
Speith
Molinari
Tiger
Scheffler
Matsayama
Fitzpatrick
Woodland
Lowry

And these are the ones on LIV

Smith
Mickleson
DJ
BDC
Koepka
Reed
Sergio
Stenson

From the lists I’m guessing
Woodland , Woods and Molinari will prob not get near again

And Garcia , Mickleson, Reed , Stenson

It’s those 4 real big guns on LIV and two are unknown in regards future wins because of their injuries - BDC doesn’t seem to be affected by his as much as Koepka
		
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Surely the last 24 major winners were all PGA/DP World Tour players as they're the tours they all played on?

As it stands LIV only have 1 current major champion.


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Meg Maclaren ...I wish I was as articulate as she is.
View attachment 44070

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I honestly am not in the slightest bit ‘invested’ in any multi-millionaire who plays sport for pots and pots of cash…especially when their bank account is already over $100 million in the black

I watch sport for the spectacle


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it works like this : before LIV, we might have thought, Saudi - backwards misogynist dictatorship with a favouring of beheadings, ghastly. After paying Phil $250M, Saudi - lovely country, so generous to millionaire golfers, I might go there on a holiday to enjoy the sand and oil.
It has really changed my perception.
		
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You’ve clearly never been to the Middle East and making assumptions by what you read on the internet 🙄


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## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

The Saudis don’t really want the average or even reasonably well off holidaymaker.

They want the mega rich and that is what they are gearing up for. Just take a look at the resort’s they are building.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564561100569563143
all getting a bit silly now

LIV is existing , it’s getting players and has its events so what are they suing for


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564561100569563143
*all getting a bit silly now*

Click to expand...

That ship sailed along time ago.
It’s taking over peoples life’s discussing this 🥱


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## Marshy77 (Aug 30, 2022)

At least HV3 has admitted that despite earning $10.5m so far without winning on the PGA it was too much money to turn down. Fair play.


----------



## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

Scanning here today, certainly feels like the format & whether a tournament or exhibition are big factors.
Someone posted about 'middle aged blokes arguing on a golf forum' 🙂. Also this is largely a European based forum (with a few welcome exceptions).
I think ultimately how this whole thing lands in Asia, Oceania, Africa and of course the Middle East will have some bearing on the outcome.
Have said before, will be interesting to see the 2023 PGAT & LIV schedules & locations.


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Scanning here today, certainly feels like the format & whether a tournament or exhibition are big factors.
Someone posted about 'middle aged blokes arguing on a golf forum' 🙂. Also this is largely a European based forum (with a few welcome exceptions).
I think ultimately how this whole thing lands in Asia, Oceania, Africa and of course the Middle East will have some bearing on the outcome.
Have said before, will be interesting to see the 2023 PGAT & LIV schedules & locations.
		
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I was in Australia for a month over the summer - didn't see or hear anything about LIV whilst I was there, even with all the Cam Smith speculation.


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			You’ve clearly never been to the Middle East and making assumptions by what you read on the internet 🙄
		
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I think he was providing a example of what "sportswashing" meant,  rather than commenting on his experience of Saudi


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

PieMan said:



			I was in Australia for a month over the summer - didn't see or hear anything about LIV whilst I was there, even with all the Cam Smith speculation.
		
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A month is hardly relevant when you were on holiday to be fair.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Scanning here today, certainly feels like the format & whether a tournament or exhibition are big factors.
Someone posted about 'middle aged blokes arguing on a golf forum' 🙂. Also this is largely a European based forum (with a few welcome exceptions).
I think ultimately how this whole thing lands in Asia, Oceania, Africa and of course the Middle East will have some bearing on the outcome.
Have said before, will be interesting to see the 2023 PGAT & LIV schedules & locations.
		
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LIV are going to try to make it a world tour - I suspect that’s why they are targeting multiple different nationalities to try and get a worldwide audience 

The issue is the two big main markets for golf are the US and European - so they are going try and tap into those other markets in areas where golf is prob significantly down a list of sports that matter 

Even on social media it’s mainly the US area and it’s why the majority of their events so far are in the US 

The areas they will get events in 

Australia 
Africa 
South America 
Middle East 
Asia

Those areas have had golf events with big names and crowds don’t flock to them 

And then there is the viewers - again the two big markets are the US and Europe. A world tour will have many events in time zones where your two big markers are in the land of nod 

The events are going to get big prize funds but it will all be held up by Saudi money - I just can’t see it having the appeal all over the world


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

IainP said:



			Scanning here today, certainly feels like the format & whether a tournament or exhibition are big factors.
Someone posted about 'middle aged blokes arguing on a golf forum' 🙂. Also this is largely a European based forum (with a few welcome exceptions).
I think ultimately how this whole thing lands in Asia, Oceania, Africa and of course the Middle East will have some bearing on the outcome.
Have said before, will be interesting to see the 2023 PGAT & LIV schedules & locations.
		
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Good point, I agree

A US centric PGA Tour, primarily full of US golfers, has and will continue to gain sponsors and viewership in the N American market. But it’s true to say that globally golf is way behind tennis in terms of how it exploits other markets…golf has the potential to tap into viewership right across the world and I do think a well-run and well-coordinated world tour could increase revenue exponentially 

Having a team-franchise thing, loosely based on nations, could be the way to help engineer viewership engagement in so-far under-represented world markets —- it remains to be seen if LIV has the capability or the appeal to do this….but I firmly believe the potential is there, irrespective of the desirability (or not) of LIV


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## evemccc (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			LIV are going to try to make it a world tour - I suspect that’s why they are targeting multiple different nationalities to try and get a worldwide audience 

The issue is the two big main markets for golf are the US and European - so they are going try and tap into those other markets in areas where golf is prob significantly down a list of sports that matter 

Even on social media it’s mainly the US area and it’s why the majority of their events so far are in the US 

The areas they will get events in 

Australia 
Africa 
South America 
Middle East 
Asia

Those areas have had golf events with big names and crowds don’t flock to them 

And then there is the viewers - again the two big markets are the US and Europe. A world tour will have many events in time zones where your two big markers are in the land of nod 

The events are going to get big prize funds but it will all be held up by Saudi money - I just can’t see it having the appeal all over the world
		
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Basically said a similar thing…about 30 seconds later🤪😂


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## BrianM (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			I think he was providing a example of what "sportswashing" meant,  rather than commenting on his experience of Saudi

Click to expand...

I’m honestly not for or against LIV, but I can’t stand hypocrisy when people know nothing about a country or their people, I’m fortunate enough to worked in an industry where I’ve met a lot of Arabic people.
I’ve also had holidays in Dubai for 8 out of the past 12 years.
I seriously don’t get the hate for people doing their jobs.


----------



## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			LIV are going to try to make it a world tour - I suspect that’s why they are targeting multiple different nationalities to try and get a worldwide audience

The issue is the two big main markets for golf are the US and European - so they are going try and tap into those other markets in areas where golf is prob significantly down a list of sports that matter

Even on social media it’s mainly the US area and it’s why the majority of their events so far are in the US

The areas they will get events in

Australia
Africa
South America
Middle East
Asia

Those areas have had golf events with big names and crowds don’t flock to them

And then there is the viewers - again the two big markets are the US and Europe. A world tour will have many events in time zones where your two big markers are in the land of nod

The events are going to get big prize funds but it will all be held up by Saudi money - I just can’t see it having the appeal all over the world
		
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All valid points, and points made previously. Thing is, if just keep doing the same safe thing over and over, then likely to receive the same results - self reinforcing. No idea if possible, but perhaps some silly deep pockets, not caring about commercial viability in short term, might be able to move the needle?
Similar to @evemccc , it remains to be seen.


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## fenwayrich (Aug 30, 2022)

Fair play to Cameron Smith. He has stated that he was swayed by the guaranteed money and the chance to spend a number of months at home in Australia hanging out with his mates. He has chosen a luxurious semi retirement at age 29. Not very ambitious perhaps, but a perfectly understandable decision.


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			At least HV3 has admitted that despite earning $10.5m so far without winning on the PGA it was too much money to turn down. Fair play.
		
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Yep, the letter reads well. Clearly he & his team have learnt from predecessor's mess ups! 😅


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			A month is hardly relevant when you were on holiday to be fair.
		
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So watching the news most mornings and the sports reports before I went out doesn't count?


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## Backsticks (Aug 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			You’ve clearly never been to the Middle East and making assumptions by what you read on the internet 🙄
		
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I may not have been to the middle east....but I have been to Saudi Arabia.


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 30, 2022)

Pelley coming down hard on the LIV boys at Wentworth 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564641477027938306


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## Marshy77 (Aug 30, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			Fair play to Cameron Smith. He has stated that he was swayed by the guaranteed money and the chance to spend a number of months at home in Australia hanging out with his mates. He has chosen a luxurious semi retirement at age 29. Not very ambitious perhaps, but a perfectly understandable decision.
		
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Semi retired as a major champ, PGA winner with a lot of money in the bank. I get it but wonder if the lack of competitive championship golf will be a problem after the initial high of the money, time off etc.


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2022)

IanM said:



			Split sports are always poorer for being split.

Darts and Boxing being the obvious examples
		
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You are probably right, but I'm looking forward to PGA at Wentworth more than I did the last few years !
Rank & file DPWT players, the PGAT players dropping in, & some of the LIV gang.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

The PGA Tour still has the strongest portion of the top players for sure.

For Liv to have put that field of 48 players together in just 3 events over 6 months shows massive growth in the Liv brand from what they started with in London. 

Over half of the currentt field are recognisable.names in professional golf..

Going to be very interesting to see If that growth curve continues with more chasing the big $$ and wanting a piece of the pie in 2024.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564638408416399369


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Enough interest to comment though.
		
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Pretty much my first comment on this thread (I think), and I am saying thst I am not interested in watching the LIV.  The 'politics' of it is to me a separate matter - as in - if I choose to leave one body I cannot expect that body to act towards me as if i hadn't.  As it was my choice to leave I should just accept the consequences and get on with it.


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## Slab (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm kinda intrigued about the bitching/biting between players on opposing tours. Why does pgat Player A even care what liv Player B does/says?


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## Backsticks (Aug 31, 2022)

Slab said:



			I'm kinda intrigued about the bitching/biting between players on opposing tours. Why does pgat Player A even care what liv Player B does/says?
		
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Because the pgat loyalists are threatened by Saudi. If 2 or 3 more top 20 players follow Smith there, the brand pgat is devalued. It will be missing too significant a proportion of the top 20 or 30 plaayers that define the quality of field in a tournament to claim clear preeminence.


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## IainP (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Because the pgat loyalists are threatened by Saudi. If 2 or 3 more top 20 players follow Smith there, the brand pgat is devalued. It will be missing too significant a proportion of the top 20 or 30 plaayers that define the quality of field in a tournament to claim clear preeminence.
		
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Related to that the PGAT have committed significant purse increases, some of which assume comes from sponsors. Some sponsors may be less focused on recent form, more on awareness & recognisabilty - and may become less keen to stump up. As we keep saying, long way to go on this still...


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## Marshy77 (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Because the pgat loyalists are threatened by Saudi. If 2 or 3 more top 20 players follow Smith there, the brand pgat is devalued. It will be missing too significant a proportion of the top 20 or 30 plaayers that define the quality of field in a tournament to claim clear preeminence.
		
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True. The top players in the PGA are reducing, obviously giving others opportunities but players like Spieth who's going through changes but will be very comfortable will start to see LIV players playing less, earn more and wonder what the life/balance is quite like? 

Interesting times for the PGA. I can't see the Rory Woods stadium tour scratching that itch which could also create more work in the end!!!


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 31, 2022)

I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?


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## IainP (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?
		
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There were always those who signed, and those who were invited/qualified event by event. They've been returning to other tours - Japan,  Asia , Australia,  DPWT ..


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## Slab (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?
		
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I think a fair few of the lads rocking up in the first couple of events weren't 'signed' for long term appearances/contracts. Just the odd event here and there so they'll just pop back to Asia Tour etc


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## RichA (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?
		
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I'm sure the paymasters have a clean up team on stand-by to resolve such issues.


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## Backsticks (Aug 31, 2022)

RichA said:



			I'm sure the paymasters have a clean up team on stand-by to resolve such issues.
		
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Ouch !


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## evemccc (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?
		
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Seek and ye shall find 🤣


Alan Shipnuck posed the same question on his Twitter page yesterday…apparently he’s doing a pod on it based on interviews he’s doing or recently done 

It’ll be clear - or slightly more clear - in a few days


----------



## Beezerk (Aug 31, 2022)

Gary Player was in Radio 5 this morning talking about LIV, in fairness he did make a couple of good points but it was just an embarrassing rant imo. The guy needs to get his head out of the sand.


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## CountLippe (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it works like this : before LIV, we might have thought, Saudi - backwards misogynist dictatorship with a favouring of beheadings, ghastly. After paying Phil $250M, Saudi - lovely country, so generous to millionaire golfers, I might go there on a holiday to enjoy the sand and oil.
It has really changed my perception.
		
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I get it with football.  I just don't understand how golf has the popularity to change it's perception.  Certainly not for the figures involved.  Surely there would be othere sports which would provide a better return?


----------



## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

With fields limited to 54, LIV has now signed 66 players, what happens to those at the bottom who don’t play?

And if they sign more, who drops out and where do they go?
		
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It's a mistake to think the Liv Model is set in stone.
Can be tweaked at anytime to accommodate more players and the PGA Tour knows this. 
4 balls shotgun or 72 holes with a 48 player cut with shotgun at the weekend are all easily implemented and the field increases in size. 

The current model fits perfectly with the amount of top and good players they have. 

The players have gone for the money, if they are all of a sudden told you have to play 72 holes with a cut and missed cut players still get paid a nice sum and winners still get multiple millions that is way more than the PGAT, players will still be happy and players will still be interested in moving across.

I don't think it will but theoretically Liv could finish the PGA Tour by ending up with 75% of the worlds best Golfers if they all chase the money..


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

In regards players dropping out - they were mainly fillers 

Most of those were not contracted players , they prob go invites for the odd event which they played in and now they will go back to the Asian Tour and play there



Slab said:



			I'm kinda intrigued about the bitching/biting between players on opposing tours. Why does pgat Player A even care what liv Player B does/says?
		
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I’m guessing a number of those players are bit miffed that those players that left to go to LIV then want to also come back and play and have also decided to sue the tour - that’s not going to go down well 

And it’s just going to get messier


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## Slab (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In regards players dropping out - they were mainly fillers

Most of those were not contracted players , they prob go invites for the odd event which they played in and now they will go back to the Asian Tour and play there



*I’m guessing a number of those players are bit miffed that those players that left to go to LIV then want to also come back and play and have also decided to sue the tour - that’s not going to go down well*

And it’s just going to get messier
		
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I see that going on, but is it the PGAT/ET Players place to be miffed? 
Its not them that's 'getting sued' and Its not like its a player run BMW event next week its a ET event. Its really none of their business what player qualification the ET have said can make up the field

Gawd help us if we've reached the stage where players believe they'll decide who can/can't enter a pro golf tournament


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## timd77 (Aug 31, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			At least HV3 has admitted that despite earning $10.5m so far without winning on the PGA it was too much money to turn down. Fair play.
		
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What I could do with half of his career earnings…


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## evemccc (Aug 31, 2022)

Slab said:



			I see that going on, but is it the PGAT/ET Players place to be miffed? 
Its not them that's 'getting sued' and Its not like its a player run BMW event next week its a ET event. Its really none of their business what player qualification the ET have said can make up the field

Gawd help us if we've reached the stage where players believe they'll decide who can/can't enter a pro golf tournament
		
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To your last point I think it depends on which players make that decision…Pretty sure we’re not too far away from a couple of players especially believing they can do that 😜


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## Marshy77 (Aug 31, 2022)

timd77 said:



			What I could do with half of his career earnings…
		
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Exactly and it seems that isn't enough too! When you break it down it's obscene.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 31, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Exactly and it seems that isn't enough too! When you break it down it's obscene.
		
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Wish I was in their position,I’d be off like a shot 😆


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## stefanovic (Aug 31, 2022)

Listened to Gary Player this morning criticising the LIV.
Aged 86 he's worth $250 million.

"LIV golfers won't be competing to make the cut.
They won't need to work hard in the gym...blah, blah.
But Henrik Stenson - he deserves to join the LIV because he was stung by Allen Stanford's ponzi scheme so has no money.

Plus a plethora of other many strange comments.


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## Pin-seeker (Aug 31, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Listened to Gary Player this morning criticising the LIV.
Aged 86 he's worth $250 million.

"LIV golfers won't be competing to make the cut.
They won't need to work hard in the gym...blah, blah.
But Henrik Stenson - he deserves to join the LIV because he was stung by Allen Stanford's ponzi scheme so has no money.

Plus a plethora of other many strange comments.
		
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Didn’t Stenson win the fed ex after getting stung.
He’s hardly skint 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Didn’t Stenson win the fed ex after getting stung.
He’s hardly skint 😂
		
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He has won a lot since then. I am sure that loss stings him still, it would everyone, but people can't keep referring back to that as a suggestion that he is living out of the back of his car. To be fair, I don't think he himself raises it, it is others that keep harping back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Gary Player was in Radio 5 this morning talking about LIV, in fairness he did make a couple of good points but it was just an embarrassing rant imo. The guy needs to get his head out of the sand.
		
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Is that the same Player who was recently very well sponsered by Golf Saudi 🤔


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

This podcast with respected journalist Alan Shipnuck is well worth an hour of your time..

The PGA Tours threats to Andy Ogletree at the end of this is definitely not cool..
As Alan says "That's ****** Up man that they would threaten you like that"


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## Beezerk (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that the same Player who was recently very well sponsered by Golf Saudi 🤔
		
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It got brought up by the interviewer, GP just mentioned ladies golf and Aramco and completely swerved the Saudi angle.


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## Springveldt (Aug 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yep, the letter reads well. Clearly he & his team have learnt from predecessor's mess ups! 😅
		
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I agree. Pretty heartfelt announcement and the money was too good to turn down.


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## slowhand (Aug 31, 2022)

I have no issues with any golfer who wants to go and join the Liv tour (I personally don't like it and won't watch it, but that's up to me), but please be honest about why you're going. You're going for the money. If it was about playing less golf, you wouldn't be going to court to try and play on the PGA / DP World tour as well. If it was about growing the game, why aren't the tournaments taking place in countries that don't get a PGA / DP World tournament? Let's be clear, if I was offered an insane amount of money to just do what I was already doing, I would also seriously consider it.

I think the main problem is Norman. He has had it in for the PGA tour ever since his original proposals back in the 90s were shot down. He seems to have taken it very much as a personal slight and has had a chip on his shoulder ever since. Someone more willing to compromise (and this goes for Monohagn as well) might have been able to have got Liv & the PGA tour to a place where they can coexist peacefully.

My personal opinion is that all the separate tours are not good for golf. It should be a single, worldwide tour, under one governing body like most other sports, where there are tournaments spread around the globe, much like tennis. I'd drop the US PGA as a major in favour of the Australian Open, and much as the PGA tour has it's west cast and Florida swings, you could have an Australasia swing in the (northern hemisphere) winter months, then on to the US for March, April & May (Players, Masters and move the US Open), then onto Europe to take in the Open and other European tournaments, then on to the Middle East. Players can opt to play in whatever tournaments they wish, but of course would need to be mindful of qualifying criteria for those they wish to enter


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## PieMan (Aug 31, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Gary Player was in Radio 5 this morning talking about LIV, in fairness he did make a couple of good points but it was just an embarrassing rant imo. The guy needs to get his head out of the sand.
		
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I take it not Saudi sand?!!!


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

slowhand said:



			I have no issues with any golfer who wants to go and join the Liv tour (I personally don't like it and won't watch it, but that's up to me), but please be honest about why you're going. You're going for the money. If it was about playing less golf, you wouldn't be going to court to try and play on the PGA / DP World tour as well. If it was about growing the game, why aren't the tournaments taking place in countries that don't get a PGA / DP World tournament? Let's be clear, if I was offered an insane amount of money to just do what I was already doing, I would also seriously consider it.

I think the main problem is Norman. He has had it in for the PGA tour ever since his original proposals back in the 90s were shot down. He seems to have taken it very much as a personal slight and has had a chip on his shoulder ever since. Someone more willing to compromise (and this goes for Monohagn as well) might have been able to have got Liv & the PGA tour to a place where they can coexist peacefully.

My personal opinion is that all the separate tours are not good for golf. It should be a single, worldwide tour, under one governing body like most other sports, where there are tournaments spread around the globe, much like tennis. I'd drop the US PGA as a major in favour of the Australian Open, and much as the PGA tour has it's west cast and Florida swings, you could have an Australasia swing in the (northern hemisphere) winter months, then on to the US for March, April & May (Players, Masters and move the US Open), then onto Europe to take in the Open and other European tournaments, then on to the Middle East. Players can opt to play in whatever tournaments they wish, but of course would need to be mindful of qualifying criteria for those they wish to enter
		
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I'm pretty sure all the players who have gone to LIV have said the money is a key part. Every player I've heard has said the money played a huge factor anyway. 

I don't understand this narrative that is being said in which the players are trying to give fake excuses as to why they joined LIV. I mean, what do you expect them to say. The money is the only reason we have joined, and any other potential issue you can think of is worse than what we had on the PGA? Of course not. The money has attracted them to LIV, but as it happens, there are other benefits to them over and above the money. One of the key ones is the opportunity to play less golf if they wish. Not just in number of tournaments played throughout the year, but freeing up an extra day a week. Of course that is an advantage. Of course, what they do with their free time is up to them. Even if they fancy playing more golf in some of that free time. LIV simply gives them the flexibility to make those decisions (less golf, with more income), whereas before LIV they'd have more of an obligation to play a lot of golf for lesser financial rewards, plus the pressure of maintaining your position on that Tour.

So, I get why the players are doing it, and I haven't seen any of them being dishonest. They are simply framing the advantages that appeal to them (as most people would for a new job), rather than making it ALL about the money, especially as the media have gone with the narrative that money = evil. It is obvious that they need to make LIV golf sound appealing, given they are a huge part of marketing LIV.

All that said, that is from a players point of view, which I totally get. However, as a fan I have no interest in the golfing side of LIV. I watched a little of the first event on youtube just out of curiosity (and a could do it at work), but there are a multitude of reasons why I find it far less appealing than even a bog standard PGA Tour event, let alone a Major.


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## sunshine (Aug 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm pretty sure all the players who have gone to LIV have said the money is a key part. Every player I've heard has said the money played a huge factor anyway.
		
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Patrick Reed on Twitter: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf and bringing even more entertainment to golf fans across the world. Can’t wait to tee it up in Portland! https://t.co/13XGV6jvaY" / Twitter


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## sunshine (Aug 31, 2022)

Let's be clear, LIV is no longer just has-beens. Cam Smith is a big signing, and could be a trigger for more big names to join, in the same way that Dustin Johnson paved the way for some of the bigger names that followed him in the first wave like Koepka and BDC.

Neimann is a young up and coming star, and HV3 is very marketable and continues the liv trend of securing popular players ahead of winners. Both big blows to the PGA Tour.

Lahiri is an interesting one. India obviously has a huge population but zero interest in golf, he probably appeals more to the Indian diaspora in north America and the UK where golf is a growing sport.

Leishman is over the hill so makes sense, and Tringale just another anonymous US touring pro.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

The other really big point from the Fire Pit Collective podcast is that young pros are going to head to the Asian Tour which is the feeder tour for Liv..

Why?

Same reason the $$$$

It's very hard to make a living on the PGA Canadian Tour and PGA Korn Ferry Tour you have to qualify for The PGA Tour whereas the Asian tour with the influx of PIF investment offers the opportunity to make a good living regardless of whether you make it on to Liv or not. 

Another key clever strategy by Liv.... 

So far the PGA Tours strategy has been to make Rory and his mates richer, they really need to invest serious money in the Korn Ferry Tour to ensure the next future stars come through to replace the now established star players they are losing to Liv


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564988068779610122


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The other really big point from the Fire Pit Collective podcast is that young pros are going to head to the Asian Tour which is the feeder tour for Liv..

Why?

Same reason the $$$$

It's very hard to make a living on the PGA Canadian Tour and PGA Korn Ferry Tour you have to qualify for The PGA Tour whereas the Asian tour with the influx of PIF investment offers the opportunity to make a good living regardless of whether you make it on to Liv or not.

Another key clever strategy by Liv....

So far the PGA Tours strategy has been to make Rory and his mates richer, they really need to invest serious money in the Korn Ferry Tour to ensure the next future stars come through to replace the now established star players they are losing to Liv


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564988068779610122

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When it comes to Ogletree- there was the pathway for him - he just wasn’t good enough to make it , plenty of young Amatuer stars have made it through that pathway over the years. And then if they can’t make it to the PGAT they try other tours 

As US Am - he got plenty of invites and chances to gain a tour card , he would have been given  and in those events he mainly missed the cut , he even missed the cut in the event at Slaley Hall 

If he was good enough he would be alongside the likes of Scheffler etc and have come through the ranks


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

sunshine said:



Patrick Reed on Twitter: "I’m excited to announce that I have joined LIV Golf, and being part of this new and innovative league. I look forward to growing the game of golf and bringing even more entertainment to golf fans across the world. Can’t wait to tee it up in Portland! https://t.co/13XGV6jvaY" / Twitter

Click to expand...

To be fair, that fits in to what I was saying about "framing advantages that appeal to them", and highlighting the other aspects that he feels are advantageous to help the marketing. I've not heard every word every player has said, but if he came out and said the money wasn't an issue, I would suggest he is probably lying. But, every player I've heard speak on the subject, and who have been asked about the money, have all said it was an important factor. Not heard any of them say it wasn't. 

I just don't get why some people are getting themselves upset by thinking players are lying about the money being a factor, when it is quite clear that is is the key factor. Most players have said this directly. Many of us have moved jobs purely because the new job payed better. However, that does not stop us finding other advantages that the new job may have. Maybe it just so happens to be closer to family and friends, maybe you get extra holiday, maybe it is in another country and the weather is better or the city is vibrant. All that said, the money is why you moved, but there are probably many reasons that are also upgrades on the old job. It would be pretty sad if the new job paid more, but every other aspect of it, including how it affected your personal life, was worse than your old job. Going back to LIV, I can't imagine a player coming out and saying "joining LIV is worse in every single way compared to playing on the PGA, except for the fact I get more money". That would actually be a lie. And, I reckon most, if not all of them would never consider joining LIV for the same money, if it meant playing full time in the Middle East with the same busy schedule they had on the PGA Tour. That would effect their quality of life, in the sense they'd be living in a different environment and culture, and have none of their home comforts they are accustomed to. So, LIV cannot be ALL about the money. It is simply the fact that money is the key draw to LIV, but LIV allows them to not only live their normal lives outside golf, but enhances it by giving them more free time if they want it, and invest in other projects they are involved with. 

They obviously hope that LIV will be hugely successful, and so they are going to try and be as positive about what it could achieve going forward. Unless people are expecting them to say "LIV has no future and the fans will hate it, however, I am here to rinse them out of as much money while I can"


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm pretty sure all the players who have gone to LIV have said the money is a key part. Every player I've heard has said the money played a huge factor anyway.

I don't understand this narrative that is being said in which the players are trying to give fake excuses as to why they joined LIV. I mean, what do you expect them to say. The money is the only reason we have joined, and any other potential issue you can think of is worse than what we had on the PGA? Of course not. The money has attracted them to LIV, but as it happens, there are other benefits to them over and above the money. One of the key ones is the opportunity to play less golf if they wish. Not just in number of tournaments played throughout the year, but freeing up an extra day a week. Of course that is an advantage. Of course, what they do with their free time is up to them. Even if they fancy playing more golf in some of that free time. LIV simply gives them the flexibility to make those decisions (less golf, with more income), whereas before LIV they'd have more of an obligation to play a lot of golf for lesser financial rewards, plus the pressure of maintaining your position on that Tour.

So, I get why the players are doing it, and I haven't seen any of them being dishonest. They are simply framing the advantages that appeal to them (as most people would for a new job), rather than making it ALL about the money, especially as the media have gone with the narrative that money = evil. It is obvious that they need to make LIV golf sound appealing, given they are a huge part of marketing LIV.

All that said, that is from a players point of view, which I totally get. However, as a fan I have no interest in the golfing side of LIV. I watched a little of the first event on youtube just out of curiosity (and a could do it at work), but there are a multitude of reasons why I find it far less appealing than even a bog standard PGA Tour event, let alone a Major.
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564950185578479616


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## Swango1980 (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564950185578479616

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Again, is that a lie or contradictory to what I said? 

I'm only reading the headline, but of course it will help his work life balance. He gets more time away from golf, whilst not only having to sacrifice income, but actually exceeding what he got before. The money makes this possible.


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes to Ogletree- there was the pathway for him - he just wasn’t good enough to make it , plenty of young Amatuer stars have made it through that pathway over the years. And then if they can’t make it to the PGAT they try other tours 

As US Am - he got plenty of invites and chances to gain a tour card , he would have been given  and in those events he mainly missed the cut , he even missed the cut in the event at Slaley Hall 

If he was good enough he would be alongside the likes of Scheffler etc and have come through the ranks
		
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Your right with Ogletree but I wasn't really referring to him TBH.

The PGA Tour need to invest in the Korn Ferry because make no mistake these young pros coming through will follow the $$$

Prize Fund wise
Livs Plan will make them by far the biggest and the Asian Tour the 3rd biggest.
The DP World Tour is in no man's land as many of their players will play Asian Tour events. 

As Jay M said their fighting a battle where the ammunition of choice is dollar bills.. 

As long as the PGA Tour continues its "them or us" mantra I can only see one long term winner.... The longer they leave any Co exist talks the weaker their position becomes..

People can talk about OWRP but that ain't stopped the flow across to Liv so far...


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## TheBigDraw (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564950185578479616

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The questions over the source of the money is dying down with every Liv event that passes so just say what Feherty and Varner III said.... The money was too good to refuse... 🙈


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## Backsticks (Aug 31, 2022)

I am sure some do care about the golf though, and not just golf as a means to a monetary end. No quibble with them making their choice, and the likes of Smith valuing dollars more than golfing acievement, is an each to their own thing. Some will choose golf though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Your right with Ogletree but I wasn't really referring to him TBH.

The PGA Tour need to invest in the Korn Ferry because make no mistake these young pros coming through will follow the $$$

Prize Fund wise
Livs Plan will make them by far the biggest and the Asian Tour the 3rd biggest.
The DP World Tour is in no man's land as many of their players will play Asian Tour events.

As Jay M said their fighting a battle where the ammunition of choice is dollar bills..

As long as the PGA Tour continues its "them or us" mantra I can only see one long term winner.... The longer they leave any Co exist talks the weaker their position becomes..

People can talk about OWRP but that ain't stopped the flow across to Liv so far...
		
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There will never be any “Co-exist” between the two tours in the current format. LIV can only have 48 golfers at a time and they are only getting a fraction of the top players with the rest your standard fillers 

If they changed to become standard 125 man field with 72 holes etc and the same level of funding then there will be an issue because that will mean ranking points and that’s a way into the majors for them 

The players right now who are bothered about the majors already have exemptions so it’s not affecting them , the rest have either already had their chance or sacrificing it for the money 

They will increase the funds on the Asia Tour but they won’t attract too many because of that - it will be used as a landing pad for the ones not playing a LIV event 

And then there is the exposure - they still have no media deal in any of the big golf markets. The whole golf worlds eyes are on the majors and the big tour events - LIV events pass by for many


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564627496603189252


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## RichA (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564627496603189252

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You know that's just a stupid parody account?


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## Crow (Aug 31, 2022)

The thing that annoys me the most with LIV is the huge number of boring as  interviews that are cropping up from all sides and being rammed down our threats from every angle.


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## Backsticks (Aug 31, 2022)

Smith is washed up now though. Rich. But washed up.
With all the attention on caddy conditions and pay, what about all the entourages of swing coaches, fitness trainers, nutritionists, mental coaches, stats gurus, physiotherapists, etc that are now redundant for the LIV golfers retiring from competitive golf.


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			So you are on the LIV payroll.. that figures 

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You don't always have to be 'on the payroll' to get paid by a company. 


Mel Smooth said:



			No I'm not Harry. I was being sarcastically ironic.
		
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Sarcasm is a (perhaps nasty) form of irony!


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## Mel Smooth (Aug 31, 2022)

RRidges said:



			You don't always have to be 'on the payroll' to get paid by a company.

Sarcasm is a (perhaps nasty) form of irony!
		
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Nice to see DCI Ridges back from vacation.


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I can see that you are missing the point - if you saw it, you would agree that the majors will change their criteria. It isnt needed at the moment. The players that matter still get in by the existing routes. BdC, DJ, PR, CS. But once there is a risk of a significant cohort of the worlds best golfers not having automatic access as they do at the moment, then the majors will react. There is no way they will hobble the prestige they hold today.
		
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Except the issue is that they are likely to NOT BE amongst the world's (very) best golfers!
Just look at the way Stenson stuffed the rest of the entire LIV circus! Only DJ really stayed close to/competed with him.


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Nice to see DCI Ridges back from *vacation*.
		
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Not exactly! Though time off work in the care of a US Health provider. Thank heaven for the company healthcare plan, though no golf for at least 6 weeks!
Thanks for the 'concern' though!


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But your view isnt a genuine view Mel.
Sometimes there isnt a debate. Or presenting a side of an argument for the sake of debate distorts the situation. There is no question but that LIV is disruptive to the bad, *a garbage tour, and add nothing to the entertainment offering of pro golf. *Arguing it makes you look like  paid Liv advocate, or especially dim. Its like debating with climate change deniers, qanon, or faked moon landings believers - its not a debate. *There is only one rational view on LIV - its a stinking pile of, and no sports fans want it or are interested in it succeeding*.
		
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If the bits in bold are _really_ true, then it will certainly fail, simply by folk ignoring it! But I don't believe that's either the case, or the purpose! Disruption is certainly one of its purpose, and it's fine that existing tours defend their position(s) - that's surely part of their commitment to their members and organisations!


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Im not really suggesting it. Its just if one took your posts as face value, one could. But as I have said also, its clear you are not, but my point is that you are arguing the unarguable *and suggesting by that, that there is merit in LIV, when we all know, you included, that there isnt.*

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If LIV offered me 100Million (not that they would), I'd certainly go!  So stating that there is no merit to/in LIV is clearly daft - or 'arguing the unarguable'!


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 31, 2022)

Am i correct that right now LIV players who are currently qualified for the four 2023 majors will be allowed to compete? This would include former winners where applicable and winners of other majors. I know world ranking points will come into play for players not already qualified. Obviously, that has yet to be determined. Since each major has it's own set of rules about qualifying, I guess they will have to decide how to deal with LIV players fairly soon. While I'm not a fan of LIV, I say let them play if they qualify and want to compete.


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only reason the field for Wentworth is looking better than the past few years is players chasing ranking points which they can’t get elsewhere.
		
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That's surely a good thing! Or, at least, not a bad thing. And possibly only available until February's court case.


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You miss the points massively once again
		
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Only those you deem to be 'negative' to your own pov!
I'm always happy to see truly top golfers play competitively! I just don't think it's happening on LIV!


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## RRidges (Aug 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Those banned players are now looking for opportunities to play elsewhere to gain ranking points, meaning they are playing globally = good for global golf.
		
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I don't believe that will happen for long - otherwise it would be part of the 'natural' cydle anyway!


Mel Smooth said:



			The field at Wentworth represents where Pelley could take the DP Tour if he wanted to, given the current circumstances.
		
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 That has to be balanced with/against opportunities for genuine Euro players on PGAT - that Pelley has to plead to Monahan for!


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## RRidges (Sep 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I may not have been to the middle east....but I have been to Saudi Arabia.
		
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Isn't Saudi Arabia considered to be both in the Middle East AND Western Asia?


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## RRidges (Sep 1, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Semi retired as a major champ, PGA winner with a lot of money in the bank. I get it but wonder if the lack of competitive championship golf will be a problem after the initial high of the money, time off etc.
		
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If you check out his reasons for joining LIV, I think the money is a means to an end - as opposed to a the need to be constantly competing at a high level, in order to get to that end. 
So competitiveness might go down, but maybe not against his 'peers' and he might even enjoy it more - as simply a recreation, having earned enough to be permanently comfortable!


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## 4LEX (Sep 1, 2022)

RRidges said:



			If you check out his reasons for joining LIV, I think the money is a means to an end - as opposed to a the need to be constantly competing at a high level, in order to get to that end.
So competitiveness might go down, but maybe not against his 'peers' and he might even enjoy it more - as simply a recreation, having earned enough to be permanently comfortable!
		
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That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.


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## RRidges (Sep 1, 2022)

4LEX said:



			That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.
		
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Indeed! The reason I consider LIV to be a 'circus'! Especially when/if the 'guaranteed rewards' concept, that seems to be gathering strength, is considered.


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## IainP (Sep 1, 2022)

I believe at the moment none of them have made specific announcements for 2023,  so we assume so.

[Not sure we need another LIV thread, but defer to mod like @PhilTheFragger on that.]

Subject has been discussed a fair bit, e.g.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2539861

Some feel criteria will stay as is, some feel criteria may be altered a bit to recognise/acknowledge the LIV series and/or the current ranking situation.
Does seem to have become the new media focus now. 
Think how they respond will play a big part in either starting the healing process, or widening the rift. May also highlight where the real power lies.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 1, 2022)

Merging this thread with the main LIV thread later as I can’t do it on mobile


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

RRidges said:



			I don't believe that will happen for long - otherwise it would be part of the 'natural' cydle anyway!

That has to be balanced with/against opportunities for genuine Euro players on PGAT - that Pelley has to plead to Monahan for!
		
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He won't have to plead to anybody if he offers playing opportunities to people already on the European Tour, which they pretty much all are anyway - it's got absolutely nothing to do with Monaghan who plays on DP World Tour events, unless of course, they are co-sanctioned.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

4LEX said:



			That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.
		
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I thought it was interesting to see how they did at The Open - remember, Smith knew he was pretty much going to LIV then - the money would have been on the table - and quite a few of the other LIV guys did Ok too.
The notion that they just want to arse about and pick up guaranteed money has absolutely no foundation.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2022)

Hasn't taken Smith long to start dancing to his owner's tune;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62746193

The comments seem to have little sympathy for him or LIV generally; I quite liked the one about having got married but still wanting to see his ex.


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## Barking_Mad (Sep 1, 2022)

Saudi just jailed two women for posting on Twitter. 45 years or so each.

😔


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## Barking_Mad (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I thought it was interesting to see how they did at The Open - remember, Smith knew he was pretty much going to LIV then - the money would have been on the table - and quite a few of the other LIV guys did Ok too.
The notion that they just want to arse about and pick up guaranteed money has absolutely no foundation.
		
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Or you could argue his motivation was to win knowing it might be his last chance, at least for a good while, maybe ever.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			Or you could argue his motivation was to win knowing it might be his last chance, at least for a good while, maybe ever.
		
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You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?


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## evemccc (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?
		
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Once Tiger took the Nike money and had secured his family’s future he was unmotivated to win…

Oh wait…


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## RichA (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?
		
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The basis is that most of us would ditch our careers in a heartbeat if we were offered something easier with a guarantee of life changing amounts of cash.
Some of us though might ask where the money was coming from and what we might have to give up in return.


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## Imurg (Sep 1, 2022)

I don't think there's a basis either way...
These guys are now set for life...the motivation to make money must have diminished...let's be honest, an extra couple of million here or there when you've got 150 of them sitting in the bank doesn't mean much..
So they're playing to win....to win what?
Apart from the Majors, assuming they get in, what else is there to win?
The Bedminster Cup..I bet they'll all be striving to win that.
There's little incentive to work hard and play well..just a few extra million on top of their pile...


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I don't think there's a basis either way...
These guys are now set for life...the motivation to make money must have diminished...let's be honest, an extra couple of million here or there when you've got 150 of them sitting in the bank doesn't mean much..
So they're playing to win....to win what?
Apart from the Majors, assuming they get in, what else is there to win?
The Bedminster Cup..I bet they'll all be striving to win that.
There's little incentive to work hard and play well..just a few extra million on top of their pile...
		
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What's the basis to win when Liverpool play Bournemouth and they're 6-0 up - what's the motivation to score another three goals??
These are sports people, they are where they are because winning is in their DNA. So what if it's  LIV event rather than a PGA event? - there's absolutely no difference - unless of course you've taken in all the spiel that LIV is an exhibition event.


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## Imurg (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What's the basis to win when Liverpool play Bournemouth and they're 6-0 up - what's the motivation to score another three goals??
These are sports people, they are where they are because winning is in their DNA. So what if it's  LIV event rather than a PGA event? - there's absolutely no difference - unless of course you've taken in all the spiel that LIV is an exhibition event.
		
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Goal difference


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?
		
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Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can  still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Goal difference
		
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So there's no difference between $120,000 and $4,000,000 then?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can  still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.
		
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Can I ask you this. Why was Cam Smith trying so hard to win The Open - even though he had already made a decision on LIV - indeed, why were there so many LIV players in the top 15 or so?


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## evemccc (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can  still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.
		
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1) Most would accept that the most popular players can and do earn more through various sponsorship and leveraging their popularity in endorsements, than on the course — this is nothing new

2) The PGA Tour decided to aid and abet the vast sums that players are earning off the course by awarding many millions through the PIP, that had zero relation to their on course performance — and then, under pressure from LIV, they decided to increase those sums exponentially 


If you want to argue about incentives and motivation, fine - I don’t doubt your points….but they cannot reasonably be used to justify the PGA Tour and against the LIV model when you take the above two facts into account


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## Imurg (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So there's no difference between $120,000 and $4,000,000 then?
		
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Of course there is...but when you already have more than you could possibly spend in a lifetime it doesn't mean as much....
$4m for 1st...let's say 1.5m for 2nd ( I don't know the numbers and im realnot that interested)..
Tringale is leading by 2 with 3 to play ROFLMAO...is there really a motivation for DJ or Bryson or Smith to push for the birdies?
Or sit back and collect the 2nd place cheque..? Thats a mighty big kitchen.....
You'll never see it from any side other than your own,  and I probably won't see it from any side but mine either...but LIV is exhibition golf
 Pure and simple..and I hope it dies on it's arse.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Of course there is...but when you already have more than you could possibly spend in a lifetime it doesn't mean as much....
$4m for 1st...let's say 1.5m for 2nd ( I don't know the numbers and im realnot that interested)..
Tringale is leading by 2 with 3 to play ROFLMAO...is there really a motivation for DJ or Bryson or Smith to push for the birdies?
Or sit back and collect the 2nd place cheque..? Thats a mighty big kitchen.....
You'll never see it from any side other than your own,  and I probably won't see it from any side but mine either...but LIV is exhibition golf
Pure and simple..and I hope it dies on it's arse.
		
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Can you explain why it's exhibtion golf, and then explain why for example, the Tour Championship isn't?


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## Imurg (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you explain why it's exhibtion golf, and then explain why for example, the Tour Championship isn't?
		
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If you need me to explain it then I'm wasting my time...
If you need me I'll be in any thread other than this one


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## C7usk (Sep 1, 2022)

Im not sure what the main motivation for a pro is.... But I am but a mere' hacker and don't play my mates for cash... But you can be damn sure I'm motivated to want to beat them, as they are me, every time we play.. Its that inbuilt thing I am sure a lot of us have.? 🤔


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can I ask you this. Why was Cam Smith trying so hard to win The Open - even though he had already made a decision on LIV - indeed, why were there so many LIV players in the top 15 or so?
		
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You obviously didn't read my post properly. As I said, I still want to go out and win my monthly medal, despite there not being any financial reward. I also do not expect LIV players to drop off a cliff immediately when they decide to sign that contract. Up until recently, they have been working hard to become the players they have become. They have trained hard, and I fully expect them to still benefit from that. They still have the game.

The real acid test will be when we fast forward a year or 2. The we will see just how competitive they are, if they are up against guys who are fighting hard to keep their careers going, whilst they are already made men. Pro golfers generally practice extensively. LIV golfers may feel there is less need to do that, and so many will probably ease of on the training to some extent. If they are still able to compete at the same level they have up to now, that would suggest there is no point in spending extra hours on the driving range / practice course that got them to where they are now. That would be very surprising, and not an hypothesis most would make.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You obviously didn't read my post properly. As I said, I still want to go out and win my monthly medal, despite there not being any financial reward. I also do not expect LIV players to drop off a cliff immediately when they decide to sign that contract. Up until recently, they have been working hard to become the players they have become. They have trained hard, and I fully expect them to still benefit from that. They still have the game.

The real acid test will be when we fast forward a year or 2. The we will see just how competitive they are, if they are up against guys who are fighting hard to keep their careers going, whilst they are already made men. Pro golfers generally practice extensively. LIV golfers may feel there is less need to do that, and so many will probably ease of on the training to some extent. If they are still able to compete at the same level they have up to now, that would suggest there is no point in spending extra hours on the driving range / practice course that got them to where they are now. That would be very surprising, and not an hypothesis most would make.
		
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Phil Mickelson won a major at nigh on 51 years old, whilst being absolutely minted - what was his motivation?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1) Most would accept that the most popular players can and do earn more through various sponsorship and leveraging their popularity in endorsements, than on the course — this is nothing new

2) The PGA Tour decided to aid and abet the vast sums that players are earning off the course by awarding many millions through the PIP, that had zero relation to their on course performance — and then, under pressure from LIV, they decided to increase those sums exponentially


If you want to argue about incentives and motivation, fine - I don’t doubt your points….but they cannot reasonably be used to justify the PGA Tour and against the LIV model when you take the above two facts into account
		
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The argument is not pure black and white, in saying that players on PGA Tour have never lost motivation due to money in their account, while all LIV players will always lose motivation due to the money in their account. There may be many professional golfers over the years who, after a promising start, fell off a cliff. There may be many reasons for that. However, maybe some of them made large amounts of money, felt it was enough that they'd always be comfortable, enjoyed it and lost focus on golf.

But, the LIV Tour is on an entirely different scale. The money they are being given up front is ridiculously more than they'd ever dream off on the PGA Tour. They are (the current top players on LIV at least) guaranteed a place in a small field for some time to come, and so are likely to continue earning high amounts of money, even when not playing that well (assuming LIV are telling the truth about winnings and contracted money being separate). Not sure how PIP works to be fair, but presumably players will earn best through that by having a stellar PGA Tour career? So, it is still based on overall performance. I mean, I am sure there are some golfers with immense personalities, but presumably if they are missing cuts every week and losing their PGA Tour Card, they are less likely to do well out of PIP?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil Mickelson won a major at nigh on 51 years old, whilst being absolutely minted - what was his motivation?
		
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To prolong his career on the PGA Tour for as long as possible. Before his win, he will have still practiced hard to try and stay at that high level on the PGA Tour. He probably didn't expect a major win, but his practice paid off when he was able to put a great week together.

I'm not sure Phil Mickleson is a great example for you to use in this argument. How well has he done on the LIV Tour up to now?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To prolong his career on the PGA Tour for as long as possible. Before his win, he will have still practiced hard to try and stay at that high level on the PGA Tour. He probably didn't expect a major win, but his practice paid off when he was able to put a great week together.

I'm not sure Phil Mickleson is a great example for you to use in this argument. How well has he done on the LIV Tour up to now?
		
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He hasn't done well at all, but then, he's obviously had some time away from golf with some personal issues.

So, lots of players in LIV who have major exemptions. Why will they give up trying to be the best they can be, if anything, I'd expect a good percentage of them will be actually more motivated - and they now have more time and more money to invest in themselves.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He hasn't done well at all, but then, he's obviously had some time away from golf with some personal issues.

So, lots of players in LIV who have major exemptions. Why will they give up trying to be the best they can be, if anything, I'd expect a good percentage of them will be actually more motivated - and they now have more time and more money to invest in themselves.
		
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I don't expect them to not try and give it their all in the actual tournament itself, and if they are in contention, continue to do so (again, just like me when I play well in a medal). But, I reckon some of them to relax a little bit when it comes to training. As a result, I reckon they best will not be as good as their best pre LIV, in general. I'd also say there is more of a chance they'd fade away in a tournament if they perceive they are losing ground, just because they simply do not have one of the major motivating factors that other players will have.

Again, these are all general comments. I'm not saying that 100% of LIV golfers will just give up 100% of the time. I just think their levels will naturally drop over time. Unless LIV introduce a way that qualification is necessary to continue on the tour, and no one has a guarantee to be on it for a long period of time if they play rubbish.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't expect them to not try and give it their all in the actual tournament itself, and if they are in contention, continue to do so (again, just like me when I play well in a medal). But, I reckon some of them to relax a little bit when it comes to training. As a result, I reckon they best will not be as good as their best pre LIV, in general. I'd also say there is more of a chance they'd fade away in a tournament if they perceive they are losing ground, just because they simply do not have one of the major motivating factors that other players will have.

*Again, these are all general comments. I'm not saying that 100% of LIV golfers will just give up 100% of the time. I just think their levels will naturally drop over time. Unless LIV introduce a way that qualification is necessary to continue on the tour, and no one has a guarantee to be on it for a long period of time if they play rubbish.*

Click to expand...


Well the bottom 4 at the end of 2023 will be relegated from the series, with qualification to the series also available. In that respect, they should be motivated if they want to remain in the series.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the bottom 4 at the end of 2023 will be relegated from the series, with qualification to the series also available. In that respect, they should be motivated if they want to remain in the series.
		
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Well, maybe that will provide more motivation to the golfers in the field who are currently ranked outside the top 1000. But, with such a gulf in natural ability, I'm sure the biggest golfers in the field could stop training altogether, and still feel fairly confident they'd finish in the top 44. These are also the players who have been given tens of millions up front anyway (and several of those on their last legs), so they may well have accepted they will just cash in on the last big pay day, and then what will be, will be.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Once Tiger took the Nike money and had secured his family’s future he was unmotivated to win…

Oh wait…
		
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Oh yeah...  Tell me, what tour was it Tiger moved to when he took the Nike money; or did he stay on the PGA Tour, continuing to test himself against the best?

Taking money from a sponsor whilst staying on the same open tour and taking money from a new employer to move to an invitational tour aren't even in the same book, never mind the same page.


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## evemccc (Sep 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh yeah...  Tell me, what tour was it Tiger moved to when he took the Nike money; or did he stay on the PGA Tour, continuing to test himself against the best?

Taking money from a sponsor whilst staying on the same open tour and taking money from a new employer to move to an invitational tour aren't even in the same book, never mind the same page.
		
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Read the whole thread and whole bit about motivation…

Btw - It’s got nothing to do with ‘testing yourself against the best’ — that happens in the majors and Ryder Cup…


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## evemccc (Sep 1, 2022)

If PGA Tour really was about that, the whole narrative of ‘testing yourself against the best’, then the changes highlighted last week wouldn’t have needed to happen!


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 1, 2022)

Majors...

Are all about the best playing against the best...
They want the best field in golf in their events, The R&A proudly says its the biggest most worldwide field in golf. 

With Liv now having over a quarter of the top 100 ranked Players and some well known names outside of that they have moved the needle enough to prove a real headache for the Majors governing bodies. 

Still not heard anything from the R&A, USGA, Masters or PGA of America. 

Wonder when they will put their cards on the table.??

I would be very surprised if the Masters deny Liv past champions the chance to play in April 2023


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What's the basis to win when Liverpool plays Bournemouth and they're 6-0 up - what's the motivation to score another three goals??
These are sports people, they are where they are because winning is in their DNA. So what if it's an LIV event rather than a PGA event? - there's absolutely no difference - unless of course, you've taken in all the spiel that LIV is an exhibition event.
		
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On most occasions when a team goes three up in double quick time as Liverpool did, the teams do not go on to score another six.  Now there are many factors involved here,  but one of them will be diminished motivation as the game is already won.  There are always exceptions that prove a rule.  I have no doubt that for some who took the LIV money there will be those that are just as motivated as they were before,  but for most, I don't see them being as motivated to win a WGC event for instance as they will be a brand new LIV event with zero history and where not all the best players in the world are competing.


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## hovis (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil Mickelson won a major at nigh on 51 years old, whilst being absolutely minted - what was his motivation?
		
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Pay off his gambling debts


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## Swango1980 (Sep 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Majors...

Are all about the best playing against the best...
They want the best field in golf in their events, The R&A proudly says its the biggest most worldwide field in golf.

*With Liv now having over a quarter of the top 100 ranked Players and some well known names outside of that they have moved the needle enough to prove a real headache for the Majors governing bodies.*

Still not heard anything from the R&A, USGA, Masters or PGA of America.

Wonder when they will put their cards on the table.??

I would be very surprised if the Masters deny Liv past champions the chance to play in April 2023
		
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To be fair, by the time the Majors come along again, many of these players may well have dropped outside the top 100 ranked players. So, perhaps the Majors will not have that big a headache. Players like Wolff, Watson, Matt Jones, Bland, Garcia, etc will probably be outside the Top 100 and I doubt the Majors will lose too much sleep over that.

Brooks, DeChambeau, Smith and DJ may be the biggest 4 players that will be missed. However, I still doubt they'd lose sleep over missing just these 4 players. As it stands, I think 19 of the top 20 are not on LIV. So, I think when you have the likes of Scheffler, McIlroy, Cantlay, Scauffle, Rahm, Thomas, Spieth, Morikawa, Zalatoris, etc in the Majors, there is are no real concerns.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 1, 2022)

hovis said:



			Pay off his gambling debts
		
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Maybe everybody should take up losing ten percent of their perosnal wealth to the bookies in order to win majors ;-)


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## IainP (Sep 1, 2022)

My oh my, sport and opinions 😉

At least Greg C can keep his humour 😁


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564654883508215809


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## IanM (Sep 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil Mickelson won a major at nigh on 51 years old, whilst being absolutely minted - what was his motivation?
		
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I've got a mate who is also seriously minted.  He always said, whatever you're worth,  there's always the next level you look at over the fence.

He has a smashing yacht,  but he's searching for a bigger one.  

Its all relative.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, by the time the Majors come along again, many of these players may well have dropped outside the top 100 ranked players. So, perhaps the Majors will not have that big a headache. Players like Wolff, Watson, Matt Jones, Bland, Garcia, etc will probably be outside the Top 100 and I doubt the Majors will lose too much sleep over that.

Brooks, DeChambeau, Smith and DJ may be the biggest 4 players that will be missed. However, I still doubt they'd lose sleep over missing just these 4 players. As it stands, I think 19 of the top 20 are not on LIV. So, I think when you have the likes of Scheffler, McIlroy, Cantlay, Scauffle, Rahm, Thomas, Spieth, Morikawa, Zalatoris, etc in the Majors, there is are no real concerns.
		
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The likes of Garcia have lifetime exemptions into the Masters , every major winner player on the LIV tour will be playing in some or all the majors next season and some with exemeptions for life or until 60

Also players like Niemann have exemptions into them next year due to performances this season


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The likes of Garcia have lifetime exemptions into the Masters , every major winner player on the LIV tour will be playing in some or all the majors next season and some with exemeptions for life or until 60

Also players like Niemann have exemptions into them next year due to performances this season
		
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Do they actually have exemptions Phil, or have they qualified for an invitation?  Subtle difference

https://www.augusta.com/masters/qualifications

What happens if the Masters Committee decline to issue an invitation?


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## IanM (Sep 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do they actually have exemptions Phil, or have they qualified for an invitation?  Subtle difference

https://www.augusta.com/masters/qualifications

What happens if the Masters Committee decline to issue an invitation?
		
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Let's hope they do.  But past winners will surely be invited, can't say same for everyone else.

The Masters is different in terms of qualification.    They won't be worried about upsetting the LIV folk.


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## Backsticks (Sep 1, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do they actually have exemptions Phil, or have they qualified for an invitation?  Subtle difference

https://www.augusta.com/masters/qualifications

What happens if the Masters Committee decline to issue an invitation?
		
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And they might do that why ?


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## larmen (Sep 1, 2022)

C7usk said:



			Im not sure what the main motivation for a pro is.... But I am but a mere' hacker and don't play my mates for cash... But you can be damn sure I'm motivated to want to beat them, as they are me, every time we play.. Its that inbuilt thing I am sure a lot of us have.? 🤔
		
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I trust anyone here being keen to win when standing in the 1st tee on a Saturday/Sunday morning, whatever the weather.
But who is going out for 30 minutes bunker practice and 30 minutes putting drills on a Thursday evening in the rain, storm,… to set us up best possible for that weekend round?


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## sunshine (Sep 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The questions over the source of the money is dying down with every Liv event that passes
		
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So basically you’re saying that the sports washing is working. You’ve been successfully brainwashed?


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## Springveldt (Sep 2, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do they actually have exemptions Phil, or have they qualified for an invitation?  Subtle difference

https://www.augusta.com/masters/qualifications

What happens if the Masters Committee decline to issue an invitation?
		
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If they did then I won't watch it, not that it matters.

I already don't really like the Masters due to it's shady history, the cut down field, the amount of feting people do over the place. It's everything golf is trying not to be. Declining to invite players that have met their qualifying rules over something that really should not be a concern of theirs as they aren't affiliated to any Tour would probably push me over the edge of it. If they did that then their Major status should be put at risk imho.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 2, 2022)

Really enjoyed watching the Fed Ex Playoffs and now really looking forward to watching Liv Boston.

Interested to see how Cam Smith does on his debut..



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565091714813001734


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			So basically you’re saying that the sports washing is working. You’ve been successfully brainwashed?
		
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No I'm saying the media arnt asking the questions as much in the press conferences.
Don't think at Liv Boston one journo asked about the source of the money.

In London and Portland they were bombarded..


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## Swango1980 (Sep 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			No I'm saying the media arnt asking the questions as much in the press conferences.
Don't think at Liv Boston one journo asked about the source of the money.

In London and Portland they were bombarded..
		
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That is natural. Press fatigue, based on fact even the public get bored after the same questions are asked every time.

Just look at the war in Ukraine. All that was talked about at the start, I even watched live cams from Kiev constantly. Now, it is just an after thought. What was going on in Love Island was bigger news.


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## evemccc (Sep 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			No I'm saying the media arnt asking the questions as much in the press conferences.
Don't think at Liv Boston one journo asked about the source of the money.

In London and Portland they were bombarded..
		
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Well that’s a hellavu lot more than the BBC, Sky and other assorted media have asked about Anthony Joshua’s two fights in Saudi, and about Newcastle United..


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## sunshine (Sep 2, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Well that’s a hellavu lot more than the BBC, Sky and other assorted media have asked about Anthony Joshua’s two fights in Saudi, and about Newcastle United..
		
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I’ve noticed that there has been little mention of the Newcastle sports washing project, especially as they’ve splashed out during the transfer window. 

Maybe there is an assumption that golf fans have more integrity and are able to critically assess the situation. Whereas football fans are too thick to understand and can be distracted by a big pair of tits. I don’t know.


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## Backsticks (Sep 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I’ve noticed that there has been little mention of the Newcastle sports washing project, especially as they’ve splashed out during the transfer window.

Maybe there is an assumption that golf fans have more integrity and are able to critically assess the situation. Whereas football fans are too thick to understand and can be distracted by a big pair of tits. I don’t know.
		
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I dont think so. I think other sports prove that fans in the main dont have any objection to the source of money or sports washing. Its why that angle has made no inroads into harming LIV. They dont care. Nothing fundamental changes in the premier league in general, or for Newcastle fans, with a Saudi sugardaddy. 

But LIV is like setting up a new league structure running in parallel with the premiership. With only some teams invited. And others left behind in the existing league without some of the top teams. Remove a few from the upper ranks to play a new league - Spurs, Everton, Arsenal Southampton, Villa, for eg, and a scattering of championship and L1 teams. The premier league would fight it tooth and nail, and fans would be very exercised by a weakening of the premiership. But it isnt the sportswashing angle that would be their problem. It would be a splitting of the football landscape as they know it.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I’ve noticed that there has been little mention of the Newcastle sports washing project, especially as they’ve splashed out during the transfer window.

Maybe there is an assumption that golf fans have more integrity and are able to critically assess the situation. Whereas football fans are too thick to understand and can be distracted by a big pair of tits. I don’t know.
		
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@Dando  and @Bratty  could distract anyone …


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## Depreston (Sep 2, 2022)

Ffs man 

Literally tune in to see the numbers 51k (well worth the 200 mil they’ve spunked this week on signings) commentators say “HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE IN LIV GOLF….” Wolf standing on a par 3 tee “erm.. oh er you’re seeing this as live as we are… oh where’s this going it’s in the hole” 

Canny  love spoilers


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## Depreston (Sep 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I’ve noticed that there has been little mention of the Newcastle sports washing project, especially as they’ve splashed out during the transfer window.

Maybe there is an assumption that golf fans have more integrity and are able to critically assess the situation. Whereas football fans are too thick to understand and can be distracted by a big pair of tits. I don’t know.
		
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The initial outrage dies down and then job done the… Saudis are at the table that’s part of sportswashing


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 2, 2022)

Cam Smiths short game is a joke #livgolfboston


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 2, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Ffs man 

Literally tune in to see the numbers 51k (well worth the 200 mil they’ve spunked this week on signings) commentators say “HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE IN LIV GOLF….” Wolf standing on a par 3 tee “erm.. oh er you’re seeing this as live as we are… oh where’s this going it’s in the hole” 

Canny  love spoilers
		
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One of the criticisms of Liv is that it has no history which for a brand new tour is ridiculous really when you think about it.

You can't buy History...
You have to make it and build it..

That was the 1st hole in one in a new tours history so you can't blame them for milking it... Which they did...

Awesome shot by the way #laser


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565770529985818624


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## Depreston (Sep 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			One of the criticisms of Liv is that it has no history which for a brand new tour is ridiculous really when you think about it.

You can't buy History...
You have to make it and build it..

That was the 1st hole in one in a new tours history so you can't blame them for milking it... Which they did...

Awesome shot by the way #laser


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565770529985818624

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Let the shot play … then react maybe? That was my problem with it was like Faldo with Rory’s bunker shot at the masters completely ruins it

Yeah they edited that from the clip haha


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 2, 2022)

Why can’t people just accept that there’s a new tour?
Ok you might not like it,that’s fine.
It might not work 🤷‍♂️
Just don’t watch it.
If the tour you prefer has nothing to worry about because LIV aren’t getting the top players then happy days 😊


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

The biggest announcement in mens professional golf, ever….

;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565845085140717568


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## Swango1980 (Sep 3, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why can’t people just accept that there’s a new tour?
Ok you might not like it,that’s fine.
It might not work 🤷‍♂️
Just don’t watch it.
If the tour you prefer has nothing to worry about because LIV aren’t getting the top players then happy days 😊
		
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I was thinking though, think back to a time before LIV was ever even a thought. Then, imagine someone gave the following hypothetical situation:

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un randomly comes out and asks golfers to play in a string of golf events he has created, really for his own entertainment. Random events, but he offers players huge amounts of cash to play in his personal tour. He says it'll be great, and he'll broadcast his events globally on youtube, but he'll mix things up by only having 3 day events, shotgun starts and some silly team event. Given it will be free to air globally, he says it will really grow the game, especially in the far east. Basically, any golfer that plays in his tour are his personal play things on some random tour that really has nothing to do with elite competitive sport.

I am almost pretty sure 100% of people in here would have said that is absurd? Like some sort of Ben Stiller slap.stick comedy movie.

Yet, swap North Korea with Saudi Arabia, throw in Greg Norman as a spokesperson, and then suddenly we have LIV. The whole concept is just bizarre, and it seems crazy so many people have become brainwashed it is just another tour, no real issue. To me, it is just a complete side show, and still nothing to do with elite professional golf, even though random professional golfers have accepted the cash to participate


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I was thinking though, think back to a time before LIV was ever even a thought. Then, imagine someone gave the following hypothetical situation:

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un randomly comes out and asks golfers to play in a string of golf events he has created, really for his own entertainment. Random events, but he offers players huge amounts of cash to play in his personal tour. He says it'll be great, and he'll broadcast his events globally on youtube, but he'll mix things up by only having 3 day events, shotgun starts and some silly team event. Given it will be free to air globally, he says it will really grow the game, especially in the far east. Basically, any golfer that plays in his tour are his personal play things on some random tour that really has nothing to do with elite competitive sport.

I am almost pretty sure 100% of people in here would have said that is absurd? Like some sort of Ben Stiller slap.stick comedy movie.

Yet, swap North Korea with Saudi Arabia, throw in Greg Norman as a spokesperson, and then suddenly we have LIV. The whole concept is just bizarre, and it seems crazy so many people have become brainwashed it is just another tour, no real issue. To me, it is just a complete side show, and still nothing to do with elite professional golf, even though random professional golfers have accepted the cash to participate
		
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Put Dubai and not North Korea in your example and you’d be far closer to reality

The established ‘golf ecosystem’ has already had events in Saudi, Saudi is a key US ally, Saudi isn’t millions of miles away from Dubai culturally/socially —- and no one on here gives two hoots about ‘what goes on’ in Dubai —- in fact plenty have probably holidayed there


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## Depreston (Sep 3, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why can’t people just accept that there’s a new tour?
Ok you might not like it,that’s fine.
It might not work 🤷‍♂️
Just don’t watch it.
If the tour you prefer has nothing to worry about because LIV aren’t getting the top players then happy days 😊
		
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Looks like no one is watching it


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I was thinking though, think back to a time before LIV was ever even a thought. Then, imagine someone gave the following hypothetical situation:

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un randomly comes out and asks golfers to play in a string of golf events he has created, really for his own entertainment. Random events, but he offers players huge amounts of cash to play in his personal tour. He says it'll be great, and he'll broadcast his events globally on youtube, but he'll mix things up by only having 3 day events, shotgun starts and some silly team event. Given it will be free to air globally, he says it will really grow the game, especially in the far east. Basically, any golfer that plays in his tour are his personal play things on some random tour that really has nothing to do with elite competitive sport.

I am almost pretty sure 100% of people in here would have said that is absurd? Like some sort of Ben Stiller slap.stick comedy movie.

Yet, swap North Korea with Saudi Arabia, throw in Greg Norman as a spokesperson, and then suddenly we have LIV. The whole concept is just bizarre, and it seems crazy so many people have become brainwashed it is just another tour, no real issue. To me, it is just a complete side show, and still nothing to do with elite professional golf, even though random professional golfers have accepted the cash to participate
		
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You do realise you can apply a similar train of thought to the PGA Tour and pull massive holes in it.

Golfers getting paid millions in a tour that charades as a charity giver to avoid paying tax, while the execs make several miilions of dollars a year, to the detriment of golf across the world?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do realise you can apply a similar train of thought to the PGA Tour and pull massive holes in it.

Golfers getting paid millions in a tour that charades as a charity giver to avoid paying tax, while the execs make several miilions of dollars a year, to the detriment of golf across the world?
		
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I think we’ve reach peak Mel spin here.

On what planet can the PGAT and the Saudi regime be considered as being remotely similar?

I don’t remember the PGAT beating orphans, jailing people for tweeting or dismembering anyone


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I think we’ve reach peak Mel spin here.

On what planet can the PGAT and the Saudi regime be considered as being remotely similar?

I don’t remember the PGAT beating orphans, jailing people for tweeting or dismembering anyone
		
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I'm talking about the concept of the golf (political discussion not allowed remember).

Pretty sure there are more people unjustly killed in the USA than there are in Saudi though, through decisions of the countries leaders. Of course, it's different because the PGA isn't funded by the US Governement - even though it actually is through the tax they don't pay to the IRS due to the fact that they've got charitable status.

Bizarre.


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## howbow88 (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course, it's different because the PGA isn't funded by the US Governement - even though it actually is through the tax they don't pay to the IRS due to the fact that they've got charitable status.
		
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Haha, seriously?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Haha, seriously?
		
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Swango is throwing the "what if" argument out there mate, I'm just doing the exact same thing from a different viewpoint.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Swango is throwing the "what if" argument out there mate, I'm just doing the exact same thing from a different viewpoint.
		
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You didn’t though. You just likened the PGAT to The KSA and said the PGAT was state sponsored.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			You didn’t though. You just likened the PGAT to The KSA and said the PGAT was state sponsored.
		
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The PGA Tour most definitely is partly funded by the tax relief it gets from the US government.


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## Jimaroid (Sep 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I don’t remember the PGAT beating orphans, jailing people for tweeting or dismembering anyone
		
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You could say the PGAT doesn’t let women drive either so they’re obviously comparable. 😂


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do realise you can apply a similar train of thought to the PGA Tour and pull massive holes in it.

Golfers getting paid millions in a tour that charades as a charity giver to avoid paying tax, while the execs make several miilions of dollars a year, to the detriment of golf across the world?
		
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Now now lets keep to the facts.  The PGAT is registered as a non-profit making organisation not because it gives money to charity but because it does not distribute monies to shareholders.  No shareholders no taxes to pay,  that's simply how taxes work.  Jay does get well rewarded for the work he does but his remuneration package is similar to comparable jobs in the sports industry and has to be approved by the board where there are a number of players' representatives. Incidentally, do we know how much Greig is paid?  

And the LIV answer to your question posed is to pay players even more millions simply for turning up,  to play in an exhibition over fewer holes but with a rather silly team format attached to try a instil a little interest.  All paid for by a corrupt regime who go around killing journalists they don't like.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



*Now now lets keep to the facts.  The PGAT is registered as a non-profit making organisation not because it gives money to charity but because it does not distribute monies to shareholders*.  No shareholders no taxes to pay,  that's simply how taxes work.  Jay does get well rewarded for the work he does but his remuneration package is similar to comparable jobs in the sports industry and has to be approved by the board where there are a number of players' representatives. Incidentally, do we know how much Greig is paid? 

And the LIV answer to your question posed is to pay players even more millions simply for turning up,  to play in an exhibition over fewer holes but with a rather silly team format attached to try a instil a little interest.  All paid for by a corrupt regime who go around killing journalists they don't like.
		
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So why are all PGA Tour events considered to be "charity events" then?

They've got nett assets north of a billion dollars.
I don't care what they are registered as, they are using the charitable status of the organisation to avoid paying tax.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

The PGA Tour would have been delighted that Rory won their Fed Ex. 

Liv will be equally happy that their top man Cam Smith hit the ground running yesterday.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

I know the no-cut status get's knocked, but I bet Sihwan Kim wishes he was packing his bags early, 17 over par after round one. 

That is a bad day at the office.


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why can’t people just accept that there’s a new tour?
Ok you might not like it,that’s fine.
It might not work 🤷‍♂️
Just don’t watch it.
If the tour you prefer has nothing to worry about because LIV aren’t getting the top players then happy days 😊
		
Click to expand...

Because nobody following pro golf wanted the entertainment to be downgraded. LIV has downgraded it. The product, elite pro golf tournaments, has been downgraded.
Two weakened tours are not as strong as one full tour. Each partial tour cant even be half as good as the full fat PGAT was.🤷

Thats why you cant just accept it. LIV is a plague that has brought nothing good, but is in danger of leaving two weak tours if it succeeds.

The brighter news this week is that it looks like it isnt succeeding. The eflux from the pgat may be done. In which case we have a weakened but viable pgat which can take the few hits. And a Saudi tour that didnt reach critical mass in player quality to make an impact, attract interest, and have a serious future.


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Now now lets keep to the facts.  The PGAT is registered as a non-profit making organisation not because it gives money to charity but because it does not distribute monies to shareholders.  No shareholders no taxes to pay,  that's simply how taxes work.  Jay does get well rewarded for the work he does but his remuneration package is similar to comparable jobs in the sports industry and has to be approved by the board where there are a number of players' representatives. Incidentally, do we know how much Greig is paid?  

And the LIV answer to your question posed is to pay players even more millions simply for turning up,  to play in an exhibition over fewer holes but with a rather silly team format attached to try a instil a little interest.  All paid for by a corrupt regime who go around killing journalists they don't like.
		
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At what part is this thread political, if not the above post esp last sentence..?

In view of that, please tell me the relationship the PGA Tour have with China…I’m all ears
The PGA Tour China, I believe it’s called in its current iteration isn’t it?

Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan I could go on for hours 

Not whataboutery, merely context….


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Countries do bad stuff. Thats the world. Thats people.

We just want to be entertained by top quality golf from the worlds best golfers playing against each other. LIV is threatening that. Golfwise thats the long and the short of it. No golf spectator is the better for the Saudi assault.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

I was flicking between LIV and the KFT last night - KFT was abysmal - literally like watching paint dry, I only had it on cos Sophie Walker etc were reviewing swings on the show and she'd asked for some details of the lad after I'd linked a video on Twitter.

No crowds, no action,not one player I'd recognise (obviously)

"Golf, but Beiger"

Stick LIV on and you've got some of the best golfers in the world chasing each other shot by shot, and some of those shots were spectacular by the way.

Even got Bubba interviewing guys out on the course, the whole viewing experience is engaging.


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## IainP (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Countries do bad stuff. Thats the world. Thats people.

We just want to be entertained by top quality golf from the worlds best golfers playing against each other. LIV is threatening that. Golfwise thats the long and the short of it. No golf spectator is the better for the Saudi assault.
		
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Thing is, wasn't Rory quite candid in reviewing how the best golfers didn't really play against each other much outside of majors - hence the proposed changes.
If, as you say, there are now two weakened tours, how do you feel about the 2023 Players Championship receiving guaranteed owgr points irrespective of actual field strength?


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Stick LIV on and you've got some of the best golfers in the world chasing
		
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Thats the problem. 'Some' of the worlds best golfers. What, 9 or so of the worlds best 50 ?

KFT ??? Seriously ? Talk about comparing apples and oranges. I dont think Greg has stomping all over the KFT as his ambition.


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			Thing is, wasn't Rory quite candid in reviewing how the best golfers didn't really play against each other much outside of majors - hence the proposed changes.
If, as you say, there are now two weakened tours, how do you feel about the 2023 Players Championship receiving guaranteed owgr points irrespective of actual field strength?
		
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I feel neutral. OWGRs are a collateral damage casualty of this war. They cease to be relevant from about this week. But are a trivial matter really, and not part of the core issue of what goes on on the tournament golf course to entertain us. Unaltered they will just be a sort of money list for one tour of old. Useful as a ranking for that tour. But no longer a 'world' ranking. Thats why the majors will open access to a Saudi tour ranking list toppers if it establishes itself with more relevant players than it has so far.


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

BTW, the golf to be watching this weekend is the Dana Open. Excellent the last couple of nights.
I wouldnt be wasting my time watching kft either btw.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats the problem. 'Some' of the worlds best golfers. What, 9 or so of the worlds best 50 ?

KFT ??? Seriously ? Talk about comparing apples and oranges. I dont think Greg has stomping all over the KFT as his ambition.
		
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I'm just comparing what was on at the time, and don't forget, the KFT is establishing itself as the tour behind the PGA Tour in terms of a pathway to the actual PGA Tour, rather than the DP World Tour.


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm just comparing what was on at the time, and don't forget, the KFT is establishing itself as the tour behind the PGA Tour in terms of a pathway to the actual PGA Tour, rather than the DP World Tour.
		
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Exactly. Behind the pgat. So not a valid or relevant comparison for LIVs ambition and proposition. If that is what you have to compare LiV with to have it come out on top, then I think its game over for the LIV case for itself.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why are all PGA Tour events considered to be "charity events" then?

They've got nett assets north of a billion dollars.
*I don't care what they are registered as, they are using the charitable status* of the organisation to avoid paying tax.[/QUOTE

The PGAT are exempt from tax under the provisions of IRS 501(c)(6) (https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/business-leagues),  I see no mention of charitable status there do you?.
		
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## doublebogey7 (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			At what part is this thread political, if not the above post esp last sentence..?

In view of that, please tell me the relationship the PGA Tour have with China…I’m all ears
The PGA Tour China, I believe it’s called in its current iteration isn’t it?

Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan I could go on for hours

Not whataboutery, merely context….
		
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Show me the part of my post where I indicated that I have a love for the PGAT relationship with China or indeed that the PGA is perfect. 

What's interesting is that you point to a minor part of my post in order to deflect but have no answer for the majority of what was said.  

Oh and I think your post was "whataboutary".


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## IainP (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I feel neutral. OWGRs are a collateral damage casualty of this war. They cease to be relevant from about this week. But are a trivial matter really, and not part of the core issue of what goes on on the tournament golf course to entertain us. Unaltered they will just be a sort of money list for one tour of old. Useful as a ranking for that tour. But no longer a 'world' ranking. Thats why the majors will open access to a Saudi tour ranking list toppers if it establishes itself with more relevant players than it has so far.
		
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Broadly agree, although feel the owgr has been gradually losing some relevance from June. Know players pick different schedules, for an extreme example scheffler has 55 events on record, Johnson 36


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Show me the part of my post where I indicated that I have a love for the PGAT relationship with China or indeed that the PGA is perfect. 

What's interesting is that you point to a minor part of my post in order to deflect but have no answer for the majority of what was said.  

Oh and I think your post was "whataboutary".
		
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1) It’s commonplace for people to comment on a part of a post, or a sentence of a post, and not every single thing. 
2) Why do you think I ‘need’ to counter the first points you made, why do you even think I disagree with that? Or, do you think that if anyone criticises or comments on a part of your posts it must mean they disagree with everything you’ve written on the subject…🧐

Btw - Your last sentence is ridiculous…
Whataboutery is a trendy term mostly thrown around on Twitter in the last few years, and used when people are unable to see a wider context —- it is a (rubbish) defence against people offering a counterpoint with real-world examples against their point..as in the case above


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## sunshine (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do realise you can apply a similar train of thought to the PGA Tour and pull massive holes in it.

Golfers getting paid millions in* a tour that charades as a charity giver to avoid paying tax*, while the execs make several miilions of dollars a year, to the detriment of golf across the world?
		
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This is complete rubbish. I don't know if your train of thought is because you don't understand how the PGA tour status works, or because you are deliberately spreading misinformation. Whatever, you're back to your old propoganda tactics.


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## sunshine (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The PGA Tour most definitely is partly funded by the tax relief it gets from the US government.
		
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Seriously - does someone help you make up these stories?

Where is your evidence that the US government funds the PGA Tour?

I didn't earn a billion pounds last year, so I didn't pay hundreds of millions of tax to HMRC. I'm so grateful for the £450 million funding from the UK government to keep me going.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 3, 2022)

LIV Tour is here to stay.

The PGA and DP World Tour have made an utter arse of this from the off. They should have all sat down and worked together like grown ups and thrashed out a deal to coexist and grow the game.

The fall out of it is embarrassing. The PGA in particular have acted like a spoiled brat who suddenly doesn't have everything their own way anymore.

LIV - I've actually enjoyed what I've seen, it's different, it's more relaxed and it's quicker, I don't mind hearing the music pumping in the background either. There is clearly a market for this Tour and I can only see it growing.

I'm more concerned about how Keith Pelley is ruining the European Tour. He's that blinded by pleasing the PGA that he cannot see how he's undersold and devalued the European Tour. Dropping the name "European Tour" was a stackable and ludicrous decision and would have the late Seve turning in his grave. Seve fought and grew the Tour. He'd be disgusted by it's current form.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 3, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			LIV Tour is here to stay.

The PGA and DP World Tour have made an utter arse of this from the off. They should have all sat down and worked together like grown ups and thrashed out a deal to coexist and grow the game.

The fall out of it is embarrassing. The PGA in particular have acted like a spoiled brat who suddenly doesn't have everything their own way anymore.

LIV - I've actually enjoyed what I've seen, it's different, it's more relaxed and it's quicker, I don't mind hearing the music pumping in the background either. There is clearly a market for this Tour and I can only see it growing.

I'm more concerned about how Keith Pelley is ruining the European Tour. He's that blinded by pleasing the PGA that he cannot see how he's undersold and devalued the European Tour. Dropping the name "European Tour" was a stackable and ludicrous decision and would have the late Seve turning in his grave. Seve fought and grew the Tour. He'd be disgusted by it's current form.
		
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Good to see you back, one of the few that actually has a clue about golf on here..

Last paragraph is bang on 👍


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1) It’s commonplace for people to comment on a part of a post, or a sentence of a post, and not every single thing.
2) Why do you think I ‘need’ to counter the first points you made, why do you even think I disagree with that? Or, do you think that if anyone criticises or comments on a part of your posts it must mean they disagree with everything you’ve written on the subject…🧐

*Btw - Your last sentence is ridiculous…
Whataboutery is a trendy term mostly thrown around on Twitter in the last few years, and used when people are unable to see a wider context —- it is a (rubbish) defence against people offering a counterpoint with real-world examples against their point..as in the case above*

Click to expand...

Apologies I misunderstood the last sentence in your earlier post.


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## SatchFan (Sep 3, 2022)

I quite enjoyed the LIV coverage last night. Will I get an infraction for such blasphemy?


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## DaveR (Sep 3, 2022)

I see that LIV are going to allow players to wear shorts. About time, I have no idea why the main tours have never done this.


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## Hoganman1 (Sep 3, 2022)

SatchFan said:



			I quite enjoyed the LIV coverage last night. Will I get an infraction for such blasphemy?
		
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Hah! No criticism from me. You can watch and enjoy whatever you want. I just hate this has become so decisive. Here in the states the last thing we needed was something else to divide us.


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## hovis (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I was flicking between LIV and the KFT last night - KFT was abysmal - literally like watching paint dry, I only had it on cos Sophie Walker etc were reviewing swings on the show and she'd asked for some details of the lad after I'd linked a video on Twitter.

No crowds, no action,not one player I'd recognise (obviously)

"Golf, but Beiger"

Stick LIV on and you've got some of the best golfers in the world chasing each other shot by shot, and some of those shots were spectacular by the way.

Even got Bubba interviewing guys out on the course, the whole viewing experience is engaging.
		
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Can you honestly say you like the drone fly overs whilst playing rave music and the constant graphics on the screen?  The commentary is dreadful at best.  I watched yesterdays round (all of it) as I like the idea of sticking it to the PGA but my god, what a joke.    I would say I'm pro liv but I'm not going to rush to watch another tournament

I also got very tired listening to how good liv is from people that had clearly been paid to say so(from a baseball player I think)

Like I said.  I want to it work but it's got a looooooooong way to go.  Imo of course


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## PieMan (Sep 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I think we’ve reach peak Mel spin here.

On what planet can the PGAT and the Saudi regime be considered as being remotely similar?

I don’t remember the PGAT beating orphans, jailing people for tweeting or dismembering anyone
		
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I don't think the PGAT have murdered any journos either.........!


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## PieMan (Sep 3, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I see that LIV are going to allow players to wear shorts. About time, I have no idea why the main tours have never done this.
		
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Because no-one wants to see pasty white legs!!


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## PieMan (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Stick LIV on and you've got some of the best golfers in the world chasing each other shot by shot, and some of those shots were spectacular by the way.

Even got Bubba interviewing guys out on the course, the whole viewing experience is engaging.
		
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But not as good as Rory chasing down Scheffler last week.......! 

And LIV had a guy who shot +17 yesterday.......! #golfbutcrappier.........

Wow, Bubba interviewing guys out on the course........so copying DP World Tour then!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do realise you can apply a similar train of thought to the PGA Tour and pull massive holes in it.

Golfers getting paid millions in a tour that charades as a charity giver to avoid paying tax, while the execs make several miilions of dollars a year, to the detriment of golf across the world?
		
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Fair play to you 

I never thought someone could reach too spin but you made it



Mel Smooth said:



			I'm talking about the concept of the golf (political discussion not allowed remember).

Pretty sure there are more people unjustly killed in the USA than there are in Saudi though, through decisions of the countries leaders. Of course, it's different because the PGA isn't funded by the US Governement - even though it actually is through the tax they don't pay to the IRS due to the fact that they've got charitable status.

Bizarre.
		
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Just outstanding level of spin and sportswashing at its finest 

The PGAT isn’t perfect - far from it but to compare it the Saudi regime 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

I didn’t think you were and the other bots from Twitter are on some reward to market the tour but starting to think differently - clearly people from Saudi have to be very careful what they say on Twitter as we have just seen another person sentenced to 45 years in jail for social media posts so what better way to try and spread the word than to get a load of westerners to create accounts and flood social media with nothing but pro LIV and anti PGAT talk ,  hence why you only appeared on here when it all started , but it’s just got too much now and it’s having the opposite affect and it’s just making that division even wider. 
if you like LIV then just watch it and enjoy it - you don’t have to keep pushing it


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## Swango1980 (Sep 3, 2022)

Is Mickleson still the poster boy of LIV?

Another lovely hypothetical. Year 2020, PGA decide that are reducing number of events, 3 rounds per event and only 48 players playing. Those 48 players will be selected by the PGA personally, and paid huge amounts of money. Have a weird team element as well, although difficult to really understand.

I doubt Mel Smooth would have suddenly become a huge fan of the PGA Tour. I reckon he, and just about every golf fan, would have hated it. 

But, call it LIV golf, suddenly a bunch of people love it, and try and convince others to is a serious tour. It isn't. Had the PGA Tour done this, it would have been the death of the PGA Tour as it would have been ridiculous. So, it doesn't become anymore credible if Greg Norman and his financers do it.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Fair play to you

I never thought someone could reach too spin but you made it



Just outstanding level of spin and sportswashing at its finest

The PGAT isn’t perfect - far from it but to compare it the Saudi regime 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

I didn’t think you were and the other bots from Twitter are on some reward to market the tour but starting to think differently - clearly people from Saudi have to be very careful what they say on Twitter as we have just seen another person sentenced to 45 years in jail for social media posts so what better way to try and spread the word than to get a load of westerners to create accounts and flood social media with nothing but pro LIV and anti PGAT talk ,  hence why you only appeared on here when it all started , but it’s just got too much now and it’s having the opposite affect and it’s just making that division even wider.
if you like LIV then just watch it and enjoy it - you don’t have to keep pushing it
		
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But if you are fully against it morally 
Think it’s an exhibition 
Players only doing it for money
Don’t watch it
Think it a stupid concept 
Think it’s only for players past their best or players nobody would recognise in a line up.
However talk and debate it for weeks
Yes sounds a bit pathetic doesn’t it?


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## pokerjoke (Sep 3, 2022)

PieMan said:



			But not as good as Rory chasing down Scheffler last week.......! 

And LIV had a guy who shot +17 yesterday.......! #golfbutcrappier.........

Wow, Bubba interviewing guys out on the course........so copying DP World Tour then! 

Click to expand...

You watched then 😀


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			But if you are fully against it morally
Think it’s an exhibition
Players only doing it for money
Don’t watch it
Think it a stupid concept
Think it’s only for players past their best or players nobody would recognise in a line up.
However talk and debate it for weeks
Yes sounds a bit pathetic doesn’t it?
		
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Yes, because it was a threat to real tournament golf there for couple of months, so no surprise people taking an interest in which way things would go while it was uncertain. The moment seems to have passed though, without significantly wounding the pgat, and the Saudi does like it is up a blind alley with only a handful of top players. The rumour mill of top rank signing seems to have silenced too, despite the rumblings of the floodgates opening after the Fedex. Instead, just Cams, which was known since the Open. Has LIV backed itself into a corner now - big big money invested, but have not captured sufficient quality to sustain claims of being a top flight tour, let alone usurp the pgat's position?


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			LIV Tour is here to stay.
The PGA and DP World Tour have made an utter arse of this from the off. They should have all sat down and worked together like grown ups and thrashed out a deal to coexist and grow _*the game*_.
		
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What do you mean by 'the game' - the business turnover and revenue of the top 50 golfers in the world ?  Or ?


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## PieMan (Sep 3, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			You watched then 😀
		
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No mate - just saw some of the scores reported. Tried to watch some of the first one at the Centurion. Thought it was !


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 3, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565815703042670592😂😂😂


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			What do you mean by 'the game' - the business turnover and revenue of the top 50 golfers in the world ?  Or ?
		
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Are you referring to LIV golf, or to Rory, Tiger, JT and the PGA Tour? Because that is precisely what No Laying Up have been calling for, and have been celebrating the recent changes..

It could equally be either..


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Are you referring to LIV golf, or to Rory, Tiger, JT and the PGA Tour? Because it could equally be either..
		
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The only winners from this whole thing are the rich golfers - just getting more money 

Whether that be on the PGAT or LIV

They are the only real winners , not the sport or the fans


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The only winners from this whole thing are the rich golfers - just getting more money 

Whether that be on the PGAT or LIV

They are the only real winners , not the sport or the fans
		
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Zero disagreement that like many industries and sports, it’s the richest getting exponentially richer 

The only thing I personally like is that it’s on YouTube for free (for now) at least


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Zero disagreement that like many industries and sports, it’s the richest getting exponentially richer

The only thing I personally like is that it’s on YouTube for free (for now) at least
		
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Most of the golfers involved in the LIV and also at the main level on the PGAT are already set for life -and it won’t be long until LIV get a media deal from someone to help bring the money in.


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565815703042670592😂😂😂
		
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Lots of people keep making this mistake. They arent tweeting about the golf being played on LIV. They are tweeting about the LIV v PGAT business battle. No golf involved.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Lots of people keep making this mistake. They arent tweeting about the golf being played on LIV. They are tweeting about the LIV v PGAT business battle. No golf involved.
		
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Think they need to put their phones down for a while.
Maybe spend the time with their families 🤷‍♂️


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## Swango1980 (Sep 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Lots of people keep making this mistake. They arent tweeting about the golf being played on LIV. They are tweeting about the LIV v PGAT business battle. No golf involved.
		
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To be fair, I've heard one statement related to the actual golf - mention of the guy that shot +17

However, I don't think many people are bothered too much by the leaders. Comedy golf


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, I've heard one statement related to the actual golf - mention of the guy that shot +17/ QUOTE]

Not true...
		
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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

All the Liv golf courses have been great. 

Really like how this Boston course looks with every hole having a tree lined Fairway. 

https://www.theinternational.com/


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## evemccc (Sep 3, 2022)

If LIV want to make a splash I think they should sign up for Turnberry for June next year and Trump Aberdeen in a ‘Scotland Swing’ - and maybe somewhere else extremely eye-catching in Ireland like Old Head, to make a real month of highly marketable videos/photos


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If LIV want to make a splash I think they should sign up for Turnberry for June next year and Trump Aberdeen in a ‘Scotland Swing’
		
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Turnberry has been rumored already... 
Make sense for Trump as he ain't getting the R&A or any other tour going there. 

Makes sense for Liv, they have an event at one of the most iconic, historic courses in the world


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If LIV want to make a splash I think they should sign up for Turnberry for June next year and Trump Aberdeen in a ‘Scotland Swing’ - and maybe somewhere else extremely eye-catching in Ireland like Old Head, to make a real month of highly marketable videos/photos
		
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Old Head wouldnt let them near

And this is the rumoured schedule




For the self proclaimed World Tour - most of their events will be in the US


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			mention of the guy that shot +17

However, I don't think many people are bothered too much by the leaders. Comedy golf 

Click to expand...

Tiger shot 85 on PGA tour once..
Everybody has a bad day... Its golf.....

Focus should be on the great golf being played at the top of the leader board.

Even Phil M is shooting some birdies today which is great to see after his struggles..


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## 4LEX (Sep 3, 2022)

I think the most telling thing with LIV Golf is the majority of players aren't signing up and saying this is the chance to take their game to the next level. They're saying they've signed up so they can play less golf and enjoy more time off.

That just says it all. It's going part-time or semi-retirement.


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## PieMan (Sep 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Old Head wouldnt let them near

And this is the rumoured schedule

View attachment 44157


For the self proclaimed World Tour - most of their events will be in the US
		
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That's because all the American and America-based LIV players want to spend more time at home! Can't expect them to be flying more around the world in their LIV jet.

And don't forget the caddies will have more time at home!


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## Backsticks (Sep 3, 2022)

4LEX said:



			I think the most telling thing with LIV Golf is the majority of players aren't signing up and saying this is the chance to take their game to the next level. They're saying they've signed up so they can play less golf and enjoy more time off.

That just says it all. It's going part-time or semi-retirement.
		
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It suits those who wanted out from serious competition, and werent driven by the champions tour. Play exhibition golf, make more, make it sooner. You can see how it appeals. But its clear that a pre-Champions tour is not what the Saudi set out to do. They have a pot load of cash. But arabs likely dont just see it as philanthropy to give millions to wealthy men to play golf. Some reassessment of the sustainability of it will happen.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, I've heard one statement related to the actual golf - mention of the guy that shot +17

However, I don't think many people are bothered too much by the leaders. Comedy golf 

Click to expand...

The kid is 6 under for today as I type.

Golf is absolutely brilliant isn’t it? 😀


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## Swango1980 (Sep 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Tiger shot 85 on PGA tour once..
Everybody has a bad day... Its golf.....

Focus should be on the great golf being played at the top of the leader board.

Even Phil M is shooting some birdies today which is great to see after his struggles..
		
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Don't get too excited. I had 3 birdies after 7 holes today, but I was fooling no one. I'm still rubbish


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Old Head wouldnt let them near

And this is the rumoured schedule

View attachment 44157


For the self proclaimed World Tour - most of their events will be in the US
		
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Excellent knowledge that Phil,thanks for taking the time to research that & share it with the forum 👍🏻


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, I've heard one statement related to the actual golf - mention of the guy that shot +17

However, I don't think many people are bothered too much by the leaders. Comedy golf 

Click to expand...

Worth noting that same player shot the low round of the day today 63.

Good on him, that's serious not comedy and contributed big time to his teams score 👍


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## IainP (Sep 3, 2022)

Willet & Wallace keep their PGAT cards...

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/...ent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook


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## Swango1980 (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Worth noting that same player shot the low round of the day today 63.

Good on him, that's serious not comedy and contributed big time to his teams score 👍
		
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It is definitely comedy. It sounds like the script of Happy Gilmour. Absolutely awful round, then boy comes good and becomes the hero.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			Willet & Wallace keep their PGAT cards...

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/09/02/pga-tour-cards-liv-golfers-teed-off-in-boston/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

Click to expand...

Wonder what these guys think about LIV, would they say "yeah, it's really bad - it's dividing golf", or would they say they were thankful it had allowed them to keep playing on the PGA Tour?


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## DaveR (Sep 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			If LIV want to make a splash I think they should sign up for Turnberry for June next year and Trump Aberdeen in a ‘Scotland Swing’ - and maybe somewhere else extremely eye-catching in Ireland like Old Head, to make a real month of highly marketable videos/photos
		
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The golden haired wonder owns Doonbeg in Ireland so that would make a 3 event 'Trump swing'.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Wonder what these guys think about LIV, would they say "yeah, it's really bad - it's dividing golf", or would they say they were thankful it had allowed them to keep playing on the PGA Tour?
		
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They would have been equally happy if LIV never existed, if the 48 golfers simply retired from the game. 

But, I suppose this really proves the point AGAINST growing the game. Not only is LIV just an exhibition event, it has weakened the field on the PGA Tour as well.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			They would have been equally happy if LIV never existed, if the 48 golfers simply retired from the game.

But, I suppose this really proves the point AGAINST growing the game. Not only is LIV just an exhibition event, it has weakened the field on the PGA Tour as well.
		
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Because those 48 players were about to retire, right? 

And so what if it's weakened the PGA Tour (although I suspect Liverpoolphil we be along soon to tell you it hasn't). Infact, has it really weakened the PGA Tour? There are very few events that all the top players compete in side by side, and the ones the PGA Tour have control over are very limited - and if you still want to see the top players competing with each other, they'll be there in most of the Majors. 

The only thing that has actually been devalued, is the Sky Sports Golf package some people pay for - where they once had exclusive access to watch the worlds best golfers, this is no longer the case. 

I know you keep on mocking LIV as a viewing spectacle,and I know you won't change that, but the last couple of days have been great to watch, lots of golf, no ads, no back to the studio to slag LIV golf off breaks, just lots of golf condensed into 5 hours.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because those 48 players were about to retire, right? 

And so what if it's weakened the PGA Tour (although I suspect Liverpoolphil we be along soon to tell you it hasn't). Infact, has it really weakened the PGA Tour? There are very few events that all the top players compete in side by side, and the ones the PGA Tour have control over are very limited - and if you still want to see the top players competing with each other, they'll be there in most of the Majors. 

The only thing that has actually been devalued, is the Sky Sports Golf package some people pay for - where they once had exclusive access to watch the worlds best golfers, this is no longer the case. 

I know you keep on mocking LIV as a viewing spectacle,and I know you won't change that, but the last couple of days have been great to watch, lots of golf, no ads, no back to the studio to slag LIV golf off breaks, just lots of golf condensed into 5 hours.
		
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Your post implied these 6 PGA Tour players would be happy with LIV because it helped them earn their PGA Tour cards.

Is that not exactly the point you made?

If so, it has nothing to do with being happy with LIV ar all, it is about getting their card. Therefore, if these extra spots were created instead by players retiring, joining the DP World Tour instead or getting drug bans, these 6 players would be just as happy.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Your post implied these 6 PGA Tour players would be happy with LIV because it helped them earn their PGA Tour cards.

Is that not exactly the point you made?

If so, it has nothing to do with being happy with LIV ar all, it is about getting their card. Therefore, if these extra spots were created instead by players retiring, joining the DP World Tour instead or getting drug bans, these 6 players would be just as happy.
		
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Well here's the actual truth, some players may have retired, some may have joined the DP world tour - some may have even got drugs bans, but if LIV hadn't been created, they definitely would have lost their cards - regardless of those factors.

Hopefully that makes sense to you.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)




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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

8.23 
The players on tour are playing for a lot more money. 
It's great that the PGA Tour magically found 200 million
🎤
Phil M on how Liv is changing the landscape of professional golf. 

It's still very fractured right now, a solution for both tours to work best for golf overall still seems a long way off to me..


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			It's still very fractured right now, a solution for both tours to work best for golf overall still seems a long way off to me..
		
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Im not sure. At the moment, it looks like the pgat has weathered the assault. It has lost 5 players. It still has the significant majority of the worlds top 30, where the quality of a tour is defined. If it felt it has stemmed the flow to Saudi, and the remainers are safe, helped by the changes, and also by the fact that the pgat looks like being the winning side currently, then it has no need to talk or work with LIV. In fact distancing and isolating them makes their seccession look like a one off that will just run out of steam and credible players.

For now, the PGAT has held, and it isnt clear what LIV can do other than up the offers to the likes of Sheffler, Rory, JT, Spieth, Rahm, etc, but given their strong feelings and entrenchment, there is no evidence that would swing them.

Picking off lesser players in the 50-100 range over time would cement LIVs position as second division, or as a pre-champions tour of has beens if the recruits are simply replacements for the likes of Poulter as they wind out in a few years time. If they cant crack another half dozen of the top 20, the Saudis have failed. Whether they will then keep going as an effective failure or second division, hard to tell at this early stage.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well here's the actual truth, some players may have retired, some may have joined the DP world tour - some may have even got drugs bans, but if LIV hadn't been created, they definitely would have lost their cards - regardless of those factors.

Hopefully that makes sense to you.
		
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It does make sense. I was agreeing with you, in that those 6 players will be delighted. 

I was simply saying that it is a bit embarrassing if LIV supporters are suggesting this is another positive for LIV. It is tough to suggest one of the goals of LIV was to provide more chances for poor performing golfers on the PGA Tour, by removing some of the better performing golfers


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Sep 4, 2022)

Surely the real answer will be to see how many large companies wish to continue sponsoring important USPGA events NEXT YEAR.
If they continue, then I can't see the USPGA being greatly affected by LIV.


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## evemccc (Sep 4, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Surely the real answer will be to see how many large companies wish to continue sponsoring important USPGA events NEXT YEAR.
If they continue, then I can't see the USPGA being greatly affected by LIV.
		
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Corporate America loves golf, and I think Americans and those in the US golf-media are almost affronted by their tour being challenged and potentially usurped by a foreign rival

I strongly think that corporate America and the US golf establishment will come out strongly in continued sponsorships and robust support for the PGA Tour


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Corporate America loves golf, and I think Americans and those in the US golf-media are almost affronted by their tour being challenged and potentially usurped by a foreign rival

I strongly think that corporate America and the US golf establishment will come out strongly in continued sponsorships and robust support for the PGA Tour
		
Click to expand...

Agree.....


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## Jacko_G (Sep 4, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Corporate America loves golf, and I think Americans and those in the US golf-media are almost affronted by their tour being challenged and potentially usurped by a foreign rival

I strongly think that corporate America and the US golf establishment will come out strongly in continued sponsorships and robust support for the PGA Tour
		
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Or they'll just continue to act like the spoiled brat school bully and threaten other tours.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...golf-tour-players-who-compete-liv-golf-events


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Or they'll just continue to act like the spoiled brat school bully and threaten other tours.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...golf-tour-players-who-compete-liv-golf-events

Click to expand...

If you resigned from the Tour,  you've resigned from the Tour.


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## evemccc (Sep 4, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Or they'll just continue to act like the spoiled brat school bully and threaten other tours.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...golf-tour-players-who-compete-liv-golf-events

Click to expand...

I would say ‘And’ - rather than ‘Or’


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Or they'll just continue to act like the spoiled brat school bully and threaten other tours.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-to...golf-tour-players-who-compete-liv-golf-events

Click to expand...

Can’t see the issue with that 

If players want to play on the LIV tour then play on it - if other tours want to ban those players then that should be there right. The LIV Tour doesn’t allow everyone to play so why should other tours


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The LIV Tour doesn’t allow everyone to play so why should other tours
		
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Cos I'll tell my dad and he's bigger than your dad!


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

IanM said:



			Cos I'll tell my dad and he's bigger than your dad!

Click to expand...

There is quite a hypocritical note through the Saudi players saying why cant we play on all tours, when LIV is the one that limits to the smallest field at 54, the smallest list of players eligible to play in any of its events, and is effectively an invitational tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Can't see the issue?  It's like saying to another bloke "I don't like the guy who has  invited you to the pub. I fact if you decide to go for a drink with that guy me and you can no longer be friends"
Doesn't make the pga look good at all.
		
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Yes I can’t see the issue with the PGA tour banning players who want to play on the LIV tour from playing in PGA Tour run events 

It really is that simple. Players can make the choice - play on the LIV or play on the PGA


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Im not sure. At the moment, it looks like the pgat has weathered the assault. It has lost 5 players. It still has the significant majority of the worlds top 30, where the quality of a tour is defined. If it felt it has stemmed the flow to Saudi, and the remainers are safe, helped by the changes, and also by the fact that the pgat looks like being the winning side currently, then it has no need to talk or work with LIV. In fact distancing and isolating them makes their seccession look like a one off that will just run out of steam and credible players.

For now, the PGAT has held, and it isnt clear what LIV can do other than up the offers to the likes of Sheffler, Rory, JT, Spieth, Rahm, etc, but given their strong feelings and entrenchment, there is no evidence that would swing them.

Picking off lesser players in the 50-100 range over time would cement LIVs position as second division, or as a pre-champions tour of has beens if the recruits are simply replacements for the likes of Poulter as they wind out in a few years time. If they cant crack another half dozen of the top 20, the Saudis have failed. Whether they will then keep going as an effective failure or second division, hard to tell at this early stage.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with current assessment of where majority of top 30 are. Many of those have the best 'deals' currently as is and so potentially the most to lose on what is still to a degree a gamble.
Do think there is still time before January for some more moves though. What we don't know is what they consider success is for each of first few years.

Obviously there has been a shed load of spin (from both sides), and the below could definitely fit that - it comes from the same article Phil probably took the possible schedule from.

‐--------
The biggest reason the schedule is still fluid, according to Norman, is because of LIV Golf's rapid growth.

The 2023 season was originally penciled in as a beta test, but that plan was scrapped as LIV Golf opted to create a 14-event season.

“Because of the success of the product, and because of the success of players wanting to sign on with us, and believe me, our list is not what we have here today, our list is deep,” Norman said. ”We got three more today that want to sign. And so, our success of our product and nine rounds of golf, accelerated the process of 'OK, next year, we're going to launch.'”


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

Agree.. 

Once you pick a tour you stick to that tour.. 

Until a time comes where both tours coexist. (IF IT HAPPENS) 

Do think all professional Golfers regardless of which tour you play on should have a way to qualify for the Majors.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Agree..

Once you pick a tour you stick to that tour..

Until a time comes where both tours coexist. (IF IT HAPPENS)

Do think all professional Golfers regardless of which tour you play on should have a way to qualify for the Majors.
		
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The players will have ways to play in the majors - mainly through qualifying events or ranking points , and LIV putting their money behind the Asia Tour will help their playing get a level of ranking points. But the big players that have moved over all have exemptions already


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

We all love golf on here.
We all like watching top pro golfers show off their skills.
The PGA Tour has always provided that 👍
The Fed Ex was awesome and I watched pretty much every minute

While that's not on just be open to giving Liv a watch just purely for the golf.

11 Holes to go, the cream is rising to the top, Cam Smith making a run, DJ looking solid 1 off the lead, Niemann leading.
Our own Lee Westwood - 6 for the day 2 off the lead. 
Great crowds and atmosphere.
And the massive underdogs Ironheads are unexpectingly leading the team competition slightly ahead of serial winners the 4 Aces.

If not then fine don't watch, no need to comment with anything nasty.

Im enjoying it, some great golf on display on a lovely scenic golf course.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			We all love golf on here.
We all like watching top pro golfers show off their skills.
The PGA Tour has always provided that 👍
The Fed Ex was awesome and I watched pretty much every minute

While that's not on just be open to giving Liv a watch just purely for the golf.

11 Holes to go, the cream is rising to the top, Cam Smith making a run, DJ looking solid 1 off the lead, Niemann leading.
Great crowds and atmosphere.
And the massive underdogs Ironheads are unexpectingly leading the team competition slightly ahead of serial winners the 4 Aces.

If not then fine don't watch, no need to comment with anything nasty.

Im enjoying it, some great golf on display on a lovely scenic golf course.







Click to expand...

So basically those players that were top players on the PGA are still top players now 🤷‍♂️
So it’s the same as your standard PGA event

And it’s not a surprise that those players who have just come away from a highly competitive tournament and still have that edge are doing well


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## JamesR (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Agree.. 

Once you pick a tour you stick to that tour.. 

Until a time comes where both tours coexist. (IF IT HAPPENS) 

Do think all professional Golfers regardless of which tour you play on should have a way to qualify for the Majors.
		
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Not just pick a tour, but sign a contract to abide by its rules


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically those players that were top players on the PGA are still top players now 🤷‍♂️
So it’s the same as your standard PGA event

And it’s not a surprise that those players who have just come away from a highly competitive tournament and still have that edge are doing well
		
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They are top players on any tour. 
Why does any Liv post have to be construed as a dig at the PGA? 
I like both tours, both bring something different. 

16 players within 4 shots of the lead so anyone can make a run. 
Our very own Westwood is - 6 for the day and now just 2 off the lead


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			We all love golf on here.
If not then fine don't watch, no need to comment with anything nasty.
Im enjoying it, some great golf on display on a lovely scenic golf course.
		
Click to expand...

It may offer something within its own bubble. There can be a market for anything, exhibition golf included. The jury is out on LIV events, as despite the spin from proponents, spectator interest in them is minimal to nil in practice. But time will tell on that one.

But you have to consider it outside the bubble even if you think this evenings golf is enjoyable - and that is that overall, golf as a spectator sport could be the loser for the splitting of its top talent, and that is the threat. That is why people are exercised by the threat. That a 10% LIV + 90% PGAT adds up to less than existed heretofore.


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## Backsticks (Sep 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically those players that were top players on the PGA are still top players now 🤷‍♂️
So it’s the same as your standard PGA event
		
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It isnt, because the number of top players is not the same.


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## evemccc (Sep 4, 2022)

My takeaways about LIV golf

I have enjoyed watching live golf on YouTube 

I don’t care at all for much of the things that make it ‘stand out’ from standard golf comps 

No-one at my club spoke about LIV golf in the clubhouse today. Nor was the PGA Tour mentioned or is it ever mentioned. In fact the only time pro-golf gets mentioned is the Open / Masters weeks. 
I cannot stress this enough..amongst my golfing PP and in the clubhouse golf talk is 99% how crap we are/who’s a bandit/‘blind-leading-the-blind’ style advice to others / fancy courses we’ve played or would like to play

Overall, IMO, golf is overwhelming for playing > watching 😂


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## garyinderry (Sep 4, 2022)

Good god.  I cant stop my eyes rolling back in my head at the constant mention of the team scores.


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It may offer something within its own bubble. There can be a market for anything, exhibition golf included. The jury is out on LIV events, as despite the spin from proponents, *spectator interest in them is minimal to nil in practice*. But time will tell on that one.

But you have to consider it outside the bubble even if you think this evenings golf is enjoyable - and that is that overall, golf as a spectator sport could be the loser for the splitting of its top talent, and that is the threat. That is why people are exercised by the threat. That a 10% LIV + 90% PGAT adds up to less than existed heretofore.
		
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If the internet is to believed 🤔, by the number of USA based boomers seeking help with streaming 😂, perhaps interest is up . Real test will be when PGAT is back on the remote...


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Good god.  I cant stop my eyes rolling back in my head at the constant mention of the team scores.
		
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Well, that's you and Mel watching!  I can now say there's some folk I know who have tuned in!


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## Jacko_G (Sep 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I can’t see the issue with the PGA tour banning players who want to play on the LIV tour from playing in PGA Tour run events

It really is that simple. Players can make the choice - play on the LIV or play on the PGA
		
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Yet I assume that you can't see the issue of double standards whereby DP World Tour players can play on both Tours?

I assume that this is only down to our home tour not posing a threat to their monopoly and Pelley does as he's told.

I personally think it's a complete shambles and should never have gotten to this stage.

Incidentally tonight's viewing on the LIV Tour has been nothing short of sensational. Long may that continue. Even simple things like the team event have been amazing with a 9 shot swing in a matter of holes.


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Yet I assume that you can't see the issue of double standards whereby DP World Tour players can play on both Tours?

I assume that this is only down to our home tour not posing a threat to their monopoly and Pelley does as he's told.

I personally think it's a complete shambles and should never have gotten to this stage.

Incidentally tonight's viewing on the LIV Tour has been nothing short of sensational. Long may that continue. Even simple things like the team event have been amazing with a 9 shot swing in a matter of holes.
		
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It's the co-sanctioning that blurs things. Japan tour was okay with players dipping into liv & returning, but PGAT is holding firm on the Zozo. Like they did with Scottish Open.


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## rksquire (Sep 4, 2022)

Lee Westwood…., money made & nothing on the line has just crumbled under apparently non-existent pressure!


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 4, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Lee Westwood…., money made & nothing on the line has just crumbled under apparently non-existent pressure!
		
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If this is an exhibition event, we need more exhibition events. That is all.


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## Springveldt (Sep 4, 2022)

Westwood looked gutted at the end there. Not the look of someone who doesn’t care and is playing exhibition golf.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 4, 2022)

That was an awesome final round of golf.. 
Liv has raised its bar.. 
Big name players slugging it out ending with a playoff

SO GUTTED for Westwood 😪

Gotta say its quite impressive what Liv have achieved to put together in just 4 tournaments. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566558102891237379


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## BrianM (Sep 4, 2022)

That play-off was excellent, DJ showed his class in the end.
It does look really good fun, I cant believe people don't think there is a place in the game for this type of golf.
The crowd where really involved, but it felt watching it, they aren't the usual mash potato, get in the hole on a 600 yard par 5 kind of people.
I'm not saying this type of golf should be for week in / week out, but surely children would enjoy watching that more, with that atmosphere.
I'm not really bothered about the team aspect but as a stroke play event, I really enjoyed it.
The broadcasting has some work to do, but surely that can only get better.
A lot of positives after only 4 events.


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## IainP (Sep 5, 2022)

Have to hand it to golf, even in these complex times.
Last week the FedEx was great. It might have been a dreary cruise for Scheffler, but instead it was great drama and the current spokesperson came through brilliantly.
Then this week, DJ was really the big 'signing' that kicked things off, a whilst he's not the run the mouth type he was still a big symbol for them. And he comes through.
Either way, personally I prefer these kind of finishes rather than player A takes lead after round 1 and finishes 10 shots clear.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 5, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			That was an awesome final round of golf..
Liv has raised its bar..
Big name players slugging it out ending with a playoff

SO GUTTED for Westwood 😪

Gotta say its quite impressive what Liv have achieved to put together in just 4 tournaments.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566558102891237379

Click to expand...

Think the shotgun start demonstrated it's merits, particularly where Westwood was concerned. Hole 1 glowing red and he makes par down there, we're all thinking he has a chance here, then he puts his approach in the bunker on the 2nd - a relatively easy shot - which if he's put on the green, could of actually won him the tournament, but instead he's out of the play off.


The whole weekend has been a great watch but that finale was great viewing.


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## moogie (Sep 5, 2022)

Wow.....fantastic final round on the LIV
Made for great viewing
Thoroughly enjoyed that
5 possible winners at 1 stage
Brilliant.....


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## Backsticks (Sep 5, 2022)

Shows that you can have a tight and exciting finish at any level of golf. The Canada Tour, or your own club Captains Prize. Tense finishes wont make a top tour though. That is about having the best compete against the best. As the Tiger, and Tiger v Mickelson turboboosted the PGAT 20 years ago. Or Scheffler v McIroy as a lesser, but still the current best, today. Lesser fields will never have the same draw.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

Watched quite a bit of LIV over the weekend and the depth of the field is definitely improving the viewer experience.

If they carry on signing at the rate, the events could be very interesting next year.

I’m definitely seeing the appeal in the more laid back approach and can see this hooking a younger audience.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 5, 2022)

Played an Open yesterday. Three teams tied on 90 points. Incredible finish. We need to get these events on youTube so everyone can enjoy them 

I also had 7 birdies, my best ever I think. The fans would love that


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Played an Open yesterday. Three teams tied on 90 points. Incredible finish. We need to get these events on youTube so everyone can enjoy them 

I also had 7 birdies, my best ever I think. The fans would love that
		
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Was you wearing shorts and draining eagle putts, just putting my business plan into the bank but I feel this could be the deal breaker.

All jokes aside there have been endless comments made about exhibition golf, I got the impression that the top end of the field enjoyed the increased top of the table.  This is without doubt something that was missing in the first couple of events


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Shotgun start-shotgun finish worked well

The contrast to the playoff which seemed to happen at normal broadcast speed was a huge juxtaposition — seemed v slow compared to what went before


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Sep 5, 2022)

I confess, I have not read every post on this subject (323 pages and rising),  so I apologise if this subject has already been covered.
What happens to an LIV player who goes off the boil, and there is another (up and coming or otherwise) player who is willing to join LIV?
Can that "off the boil" player return to the PGA, the DP, or the Asia Tour, or is he banned for life?


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## IainP (Sep 5, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I confess, I have not read every post on this subject (323 pages and rising),  so I apologise if this subject has already been covered.
What happens to an LIV player who goes off the boil, and there is another (up and coming or otherwise) player who is willing to join LIV?
Can that "off the boil" player return to the PGA, the DP, or the Asia Tour, or is he banned for life?
		
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At the moment only the PGA Tour (USA) has a ban in place I think. DPWT has a court date in early 2023 I believe.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 5, 2022)




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## sunshine (Sep 5, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I confess, I have not read every post on this subject (323 pages and rising),  so I apologise if this subject has already been covered.
What happens to an LIV player who goes off the boil, and there is another (up and coming or otherwise) player who is willing to join LIV?
Can that "off the boil" player return to the PGA, the DP, or the Asia Tour, or is he banned for life?
		
Click to expand...

The PGA tour ban is not for life, but it’s a moot point as most of the Liv players resigned from the tour so have not been banned.


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## IainP (Sep 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Was you wearing shorts and draining eagle putts, just putting my business plan into the bank but I feel this could be the deal breaker.

All jokes aside there have been endless comments made about exhibition golf, I got the impression that the top end of the field enjoyed the increased top of the table.  This is without doubt something that was missing in the first couple of events
		
Click to expand...

Think that is fair comment. It wasn't a 'major' leaderboard,  despite Westy coming 2nd 😆, but felt on par with many regular PGAT events of recent times.
Cynic in me thinks they set the course a little easier than previous outings anticipating a few new viewers with no PGAT on.
Be interesting to see how next outing stacks up.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 5, 2022)

Who is Anirban Lahiri and Joaquin Nieman? I'm sure it is nice to see Westy up there, it is like a throwback to the late 1990's

Although, until they are competing with the likes of Colin Montgomery or Langer, winning these events means little


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

I think if they get another 5 top 20-30 players you’ll see a completely different LIV attitude from the players.

Was rd 1 & 2 a bit bland… of course but it was the first two rounds of a completely new series.  Give it 12 months an you’ll be see regular finishes like this and it will change the perception of LIV.


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Who is Anirban Lahiri and Joaquin Nieman? I'm sure it is nice to see Westy up there, it is like a throwback to the late 1990's

Although, until they are competing with the likes of Colin Montgomery or Langer, winning these events means little 

Click to expand...


Who is Joaquin Niemann? 

Came 11th in the Tour Champ. less than 14 days ago, ranked 19 in world, two-time winner on the PGA Tour…Aged only 23 and from Chile

Pretty sure the exact type of up-and-coming young talent the PGAT want to keep…the fact that he’s from Chile and could have helped the PGA Tour ‘grow the game’ (exploit underdeveloped golf markets for $$$) is further grist in the mill for Jay, no doubt


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Who is Joaquin Niemann?

Came 11th in the Tour Champ. less than 14 days ago, ranked 19 in world, two-time winner on the PGA Tour…Aged only 23 and from Chile

Pretty sure the exact type of up-and-coming young talent the PGAT want to keep…the fact that he’s from Chile and could have helped the PGA Tour ‘grow the game’ (exploit underdeveloped golf markets for $$$) is further grist in the mill for Jay, no doubt
		
Click to expand...

I think it was tongue in cheek


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Yet I assume that you can't see the issue of double standards whereby DP World Tour players can play on both Tours?

I assume that this is only down to our home tour not posing a threat to their monopoly and Pelley does as he's told.

I personally think it's a complete shambles and should never have gotten to this stage.

Incidentally tonight's viewing on the LIV Tour has been nothing short of sensational. Long may that continue. Even simple things like the team event have been amazing with a 9 shot swing in a matter of holes.
		
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Is it double standards ?

The players that join the PGAT did so via qualifying via a pathway - they gained their membership on both tours as the rules allows , same with players going to sunshine tour and Asian tour etc 

LIV have a different way of working - there is no qualifying, entry to LIV is not open to anyone who wants to qualify , it’s a closed invite only event.

Players move between tours , and it’s not helped the ET but that started over a decade ago when golf his a downturn and many comps lost sponserships etc so players did move to the US to get a better career for them 

I’m not a fan of calling it the DP and it’s poor some of things they did but they need the sponsers to attract the players - circle of life 

As for the event this weekend being “sensational” - it sounds like it was a decent ending with a play off , so it ended just like any other golf event with a playoff 🤷‍♂️

But I prefer the ending of the event in Denmark and the reaction of Wilson - he may not have won a fraction of the money DJ or indeed some of his “teammates” - but you could see it meant more


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## garyinderry (Sep 5, 2022)

It wasnt the play off that was the main differentiator, it was the multiple players in contention finishing on differnt holes. 

It hasnt really been on show thus far.  That was the first real taste of it. 

Admittedly it is certainly a novelty to see a pro tournament finish this way. With one putting to take the win and 4 or 5 others trying to get or stay at 15under to make a play off it was exciting. What u gain in speed of action, you lose in setting the scene of each shot. For example lahiri hit the shot of the day into his last hole and I'm still not sure if it was a 5 or 3 wood. The on course commentator Lu-Ann is fairly poor at what she does. Whilst radar can grate at times, the man does know his onions. 
The constant mention of the team event is nearly unbearable. 
If the pga tour didnt exist and this was how pro golf was presented I wouldn't be too happy about it. I can see how it would appeal to those who dont really watch much golf. 
LIV doesnt seem like it going away any time soon. I'm bitterly disappointed at pro golf being fractured the way it has. Its certainly not good for the game as a whole. It's been a crazy 6 months and I cant predict how it will all turn out.


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## MarkT (Sep 5, 2022)

Watched my first chunk of LIV Golf last night and quite enjoyed it (as there was nothing else on)

Likes
Shotgun start - non-stop action (lack of ads) was pretty amazing viewing
Playing in shorts - who really cares?

Dislikes
The hole microphone was particularly grating
Still don't know which team anyone is in
Team graphics not clear - format not made clear
Arlo White
Feherty looked bored stupid
No real talk of money when that's all there is to it
Felt like the afternoon round of the Club Champs


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Watched my first chunk of LIV Golf last night and quite enjoyed it (as there was nothing else on)

Likes
Shotgun start - non-stop action (lack of ads) was pretty amazing viewing
Playing in shorts - who really cares?

Dislikes
The hole microphone was particularly grating
Still don't know which team anyone is in
Team graphics not clear - format not made clear
Arlo White
Feherty looked bored stupid
No real talk of money when that's all there is to it
Felt like the afternoon round of the Club Champs
		
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Watching for ‘free’ on YouTube is great
No advertisements is great
Shotgun start and non-stop ‘condensed’ action is great

Don’t understand the complaint about there being no talk of money..? 
It matters to me not a jot whether the winner wins $1, $10 or $1 million - it certainly doesn’t impact my viewing experience lack of commentator talk over how much an already-multi-millionaire is going to win..

I enjoy the aesthetic value of good golfers hitting great shots on attractive courses, not how much they win or how much they win is talked about over comms!


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Watched my first chunk of LIV Golf last night and quite enjoyed it (as there was nothing else on)

Likes
Shotgun start - non-stop action (lack of ads) was pretty amazing viewing
Playing in shorts - who really cares?

Dislikes
The hole microphone was particularly grating
Still don't know which team anyone is in
Team graphics not clear - format not made clear
Arlo White
Feherty looked bored stupid
No real talk of money when that's all there is to it
Felt like the afternoon round of the Club Champs
		
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Here's a revolutionary idea. Use Google if you don't know. 

Here was me thinking journalism was about research and investigation. Obviously spoon fed ignorance is the easier option. 

Then again it's not really surprising that the press are still running with the anti LIV agenda.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it double standards ?

The players that join the PGAT did so via qualifying via a pathway - they gained their membership on both tours as the rules allows , same with players going to sunshine tour and Asian tour etc

LIV have a different way of working - there is no qualifying, entry to LIV is not open to anyone who wants to qualify , it’s a closed invite only event.

Players move between tours , and it’s not helped the ET but that started over a decade ago when golf his a downturn and many comps lost sponserships etc so players did move to the US to get a better career for them

I’m not a fan of calling it the DP and it’s poor some of things they did but they need the sponsers to attract the players - circle of life

As for the event this weekend being “sensational” - it sounds like it was a decent ending with a play off , so it ended just like any other golf event with a playoff 🤷‍♂️

But I prefer the ending of the event in Denmark and the reaction of Wilson - he may not have won a fraction of the money DJ or indeed some of his “teammates” - but you could see it meant more
		
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100% sensational finish, far better than the DP pish.  Made even better by another capitulation by Westwood who was crestfallen by it,  you could see what it meant to him also.

The culmination of the LIV is far superior due to the shotgun start.

100% double standards. Play on a Tour we like and can influence. LIV - oh sorry we can't influence that - right you're barred.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			100% sensational finish, far better than the DP pish.  Made even better by another capitulation by Westwood who was crestfallen by it,  you could see what it meant to him also.

The culmination of the LIV is far superior due to the shotgun start.

100% double standards. Play on a Tour we like and can influence. LIV - oh sorry we can't influence that - right you're barred.
		
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It was a playoff and one player got an eagle ? 

Sensational ? Really ? 

And why did a shotgun start make it “far superior” ?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			100% sensational finish, far better than the DP pish.  Made even better by another capitulation by Westwood who was crestfallen by it,  you could see what it meant to him also.

The culmination of the LIV is far superior due to the shotgun start.

100% double standards. Play on a Tour we like and can influence. LIV - oh sorry we can't influence that - right you're barred.
		
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Google translate is giving me nothing. Can anyone give me a summary of what  this rambling is supposed to mean?

The LiV bots are getting worse. 😂


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Google translate is giving me nothing. Can anyone give me a summary of what  this rambling is supposed to mean?

The LiV bots are getting worse. 😂
		
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_"He's very angry at the DP World tour, despite the excellent finish on Sunday,
As a Scot he isn't keen on Lee Westwood,
Something about influencing a tour?"_

Hope that helps


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 5, 2022)

No doubt, this event was a huge leap forward for their tour.
Crowds were a lot bigger , great atmosphere which may be a sign of people starting to embrace the tour a little more.
As mentioned by someone earlier, the stronger field with more respected top players really elevated the viewing experience.
In retrospect Cam Smiths signing is way more significant than I thought at the time of announcement.
I hope they do sign with a streaming service when they get their TV deal, I really like the non stop no ads coverage.

I thought it was telling that DJ said in his post win press conference that the fields were going to be even stronger next year...
Read into that comment as much as you like....


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			No doubt, this event was a huge leap forward for their tour.
Crowds were a lot bigger , great atmosphere which may be a sign of people starting to embrace the tour a little more.
As mentioned by someone earlier, the stronger field with more respected top players really elevated the viewing experience.
In retrospect Cam Smiths signing is way more significant than I thought at the time of announcement.
I hope they do sign with a streaming service when they get their TV deal, I really like the non stop no ads coverage.

I thought it was telling that DJ said in his post win press conference that the fields were going to be even stronger next year...
Read into that comment as much as you like....
		
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I think avoiding ads is one of the most important things for LIV.
With everyone out on the course it would be very annoying if ads occurred any time other than during Kevin Na's PSR


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## MarkT (Sep 5, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Watching for ‘free’ on YouTube is great
No advertisements is great
Shotgun start and non-stop ‘condensed’ action is great

Don’t understand the complaint about there being no talk of money..?
It matters to me not a jot whether the winner wins $1, $10 or $1 million - it certainly doesn’t impact my viewing experience lack of commentator talk over how much an already-multi-millionaire is going to win..

I enjoy the aesthetic value of good golfers hitting great shots on attractive courses, not how much they win or how much they win is talked about over comms!
		
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Just meant the whole thing is all about the money, which is why I haven't bothered with it, but then they didn't mention it as though it was a vulgar subject. I am quite intrigued as to how much someone was paid after playing nine holes in 52 shots


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## MarkT (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Here's a revolutionary idea. Use Google if you don't know.

Here was me thinking journalism was about research and investigation. Obviously spoon fed ignorance is the easier option.

Then again it's not really surprising that the press are still running with the anti LIV agenda.
		
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Doesn't require a lot of investigation - the whole concept is built around money, and gloating about it, and then they don't mention it which was weird.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a playoff and one player got an eagle ?

Sensational ? Really ?

And why did a shotgun start make it “far superior” ?
		
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Doesn't require a lot of investigation - the whole concept is built around money, and gloating about it, and then they don't mention it which was weird.
		
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Ahhhh - the mask has slipped now. Let's see how your position changes if Today's Golfer (for example other publications exist I believe) come and offer you more money to do less work.

Doesn't require much investigation yet you refused to do it, just came on with your press lead agenda to bash LIV.

No wonder I've not bought a golf magazine in 10+ years.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



_"He's very angry at the DP World tour, despite the excellent finish on Sunday,
As a Scot he isn't keen on Lee Westwood,
Something about influencing a tour?"_

Hope that helps
		
Click to expand...

Casual racism alive on GM Forum.


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Casual racism alive on GM Forum.
		
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I didn't think you being at all racist


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I didn't think you being at all racist
		
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Correct I'm not yet you wish to use me being Scottish against me when all I pointed out was the capitulation of Westwood told on him.

Someone said  you could see how much the win meant to Wilson. It was clear how downbeat Westwood was after he failed to make the playoff after his sublime golf. Not really the reaction of someone who is only there for money.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

What is entertaining on this thread is that it’s the same comments…. Over….. and over…… and over!

It’s quite clear there are varying ends of the spectrum and people have decided which side they’re on, it would be nice is we actually looked at the level of golf being played away from the sports washing Bla Bla Bla comments as clearly they are going no where.

And what’s a liv-bot?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Correct I'm not yet you wish to use me being Scottish against me when all I pointed out was the capitulation of Westwood told on him.

Someone said  you could see how much the win meant to Wilson. It was clear how downbeat Westwood was after he failed to make the playoff after his sublime golf. Not really the reaction of someone who is only there for money.
		
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Maybe it was the realisation that he’s go no bottle after choking in an exhibition event. He may have just thought it was the majors he choked in.


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Casual racism alive on GM Forum.
		
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Come on…Let’s get real
That’s ever so slightly hyperbolic is it not?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Come on…Let’s get real
That’s ever so slightly hyperbolic is it not?
		
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What has my nationality got to do with it? Bitter disgusting post. Why bring it up other than to provoke or be racist?


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## Springveldt (Sep 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			What is entertaining on this thread is that it’s the same comments…. Over….. and over…… and over!

It’s quite clear there are varying ends of the spectrum and people have decided which side they’re on, it would be nice is we actually looked at the level of golf being played away from the sports washing Bla Bla Bla comments as clearly they are going no where.

*And what’s a liv-bot?*

Click to expand...

I believe that is anyone that doesn't think the PGA Tour is the be all and end all of golf.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			What has my nationality got to do with it? Bitter disgusting post. Why bring it up other than to provoke or be racist?
		
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Give over. Why have we not seen you jump to the defence of Americans every time someone refers to them as yanks. Usually in some derogatory way.

Your contributions are generally quite abrasive and obviously, but quite poorly intended to cause argument.

Maybe go outside and take a nice big deep breath.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			I believe that is anyone that doesn't think the PGA Tour is the be all and end all of golf.
		
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Ah right, so is there such thing as a PGA-bot?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ah right, so is there such thing as a PGA-bot?
		
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I believe the term is PGA Shill


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## Oddsocks (Sep 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I believe the term is PGA Shill
		
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just goggled shill.

Isn’t a PGA swindler / fraudster everything they claim not to be?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			just goggled shill.

Isn’t a PGA swindler / fraudster everything they claim not to be?
		
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Don’t know. You’ll have to ask the people calling other a shill what the think it means.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Ah right, so is there such thing as a PGA-bot?
		
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Think there will be some around mainly those that arrived around May 2022 on social media


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 5, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Doesn't require a lot of investigation - the whole concept is built around money, and gloating about it, and then they don't mention it which was weird.
		
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They've mentioned money plenty of times in previous rounds, and taken criticism for it. LIV have repeatedly said they'll refine the product until they get it right, and I guess now they feel there's no need to drive home the prize money aspect .

So maybe the whole concept isn't about money and gloating about it?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They've mentioned money plenty of times in previous rounds, and taken criticism for it. LIV have repeatedly said they'll refine the product until they get it right, and I guess now they feel there's no need to drive home the prize money aspect .

So maybe the whole concept isn't about money and gloating about it?
		
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That aspect is not part of the press lead agenda to belittle and criticise LIV at every opportunity.

There is plenty of room for all to coexist and benefit from each other. Work together, grow together.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

Always going to be tough to work together with the way LIV went about things from the start - getting players to poach others to join

It’s gone way to far now and LiV will have their events and their players , all the other tours will have theirs and anyone who has an exemption will play in the majors 

LIV made two big mistakes 

Appointing Greg Norman who had motives beyond growing a game or creating a tour 

And two aligning with Trump 

How long it lasts will be up to how long Saudi want to keep feeding it with money.


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## BrianM (Sep 5, 2022)

MarkT said:



			Just meant the whole thing is all about the money, which is why I haven't bothered with it, but then they didn't mention it as though it was a vulgar subject. I am quite intrigued as to how much someone was paid after playing nine holes in 52 shots
		
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Got to say Mark, you are a golf editor of one of the UK's biggest golf magazines and you haven't 'bothered' with it.
Surely you need to take a view from both sides of the argument and put them across rather than your own personal opinion, People are wanting to read both sides of the argument?
Is that what you put in the magazine, I never bothered doing my research as its a vulgar subject.
I've got to say you should be disappointed in yourself as a journalist with the above statement.
I'd also be surprised if your Boss was happy with this as well.


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			What has my nationality got to do with it? Bitter disgusting post. Why bring it up other than to provoke or be racist?
		
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Which post from which poster was a ‘bitter and disgusting post’?

I guessed that @JamesR was making a joke - is that to what you are referring?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Which post from which poster was a ‘bitter and disgusting post’?

I guessed that @JamesR was making a joke - is that to what you are referring?
		
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Wouldn’t worry - it’s standard craw 

He has always been very critical of a number of English golfers whilst blowing smoke up the odd Scottish golfer who maybe good enough to play on the tour - nowt wrong with the national pride but point it out even in jest to him and he shouts out racism - most just ignore it as opposed to pandering to his nonsense


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Always going to be tough to work together with the way LIV went about things from the start - getting players to poach others to join

It’s gone way to far now and LiV will have their events and their players , all the other tours will have theirs and anyone who has an exemption will play in the majors

LIV made two big mistakes

Appointing Greg Norman who had motives beyond growing a game or creating a tour

And two aligning with Trump

How long it lasts will be up to how long Saudi want to keep feeding it with money.
		
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Do you honestly think either of those 2 things make any difference to players who are going to be offered the chance to switch for the $$$ ?? 

Truth is It's impossible to predict what's going to happen in the next 12 months. 

This time next year Liv could have a big streaming TV contract, franchised sold teams, event sponsorship and all of a sudden its wiping its nose or making a profit, then the PIF ain't going anywhere. 
Thats not fantasy, it could easily happen. 

PGAT will have its own liv style multi event no cut money making events which could stop the stream of players leaving and put the brakes on Livs momentum
That could also happen.. 

Who knows but that Netflix Doc is going to be freaking amazing with behind the scenes footage while all this has been going on. 
Hope John Rahm is signed up for that, got a feeling he isn't totally on the same page as Rory and Tiger. 
Grab your popcorn for that series.


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wouldn’t worry - it’s standard craw 

He has always been very critical of a number of English golfers whilst blowing smoke up the odd Scottish golfer who maybe good enough to play on the tour - nowt wrong with the national pride but point it out even in jest to him and he shouts out racism - most just ignore it as opposed to pandering to his nonsense
		
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🤪
It’s an overused phrase but it’s so true…
‘Life is too bleeping short’ to deal with nonsense like that. Especially on the internet


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 5, 2022)

Has there ever been this much excitement around golf at this time of year when the RC isn't on?


How can anybody not be engaged in this - the golf world tilted off axis - billions more investment coming into the game, stories, heroes and villains. 


Wentworth should be a great watch this weekend and we've still got 4 LIV events to come in the next 8 weeks - although I think Boston has set the bar high, and they're will definitley be a different vibe in Thailand and Jeddah. The final round in Florida could and should be pretty good though.


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## Whydowedoit (Sep 5, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I confess, I have not read every post on this subject (323 pages and rising),  so I apologise if this subject has already been covered.
What happens to an LIV player who goes off the boil, and there is another (up and coming or otherwise) player who is willing to join LIV?
Can that "off the boil" player return to the PGA, the DP, or the Asia Tour, or is he banned for life?
		
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What happens to the unwanted 20/30/40 players who initially signed, but can’t play in the LIV event because LIV have now signed “better” players? Do they all just go back en masse & turn up to play on the European Tour? Will they get an “amnesty” if they then say sorry & sign a new contract with the European Tour? I don’t have the patience & time to check through 325 pages of posts either!


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 5, 2022)

Whydowedoit said:



			What happens to the unwanted 20/30/40 players who initially signed, but can’t play in the LIV event because LIV have now signed “better” players? Do they all just go back en masse & turn up to play on the European Tour? Will they get an “amnesty” if they then say sorry & sign a new contract with the European Tour? I don’t have the patience & time to check through 325 pages of posts either!
		
Click to expand...

I could tell you but I can't be bothered...;-)


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## Backsticks (Sep 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			billions more investment coming into the game
		
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Well, into the pockets of a handful of multimillionaires. Not into 'the game' as such.


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## Backsticks (Sep 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Has there ever been this much excitement around golf at this time of year when the RC isn't on?
		
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There probably has, given that there is little or no excitement. Controversy maybe. A dogfight between two businesses maybe. But I dont think there is any excitement around golf itself. (apart from a 79 I had last weekend, best in a long while. Quite excited about it actually).


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Well, into the pockets of a handful of multimillionaires. Not into 'the game' as such.
		
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Where would it go on any of the other tours, or any top level sport for that matter?

Hasn't Bryson already invested millions back into his business ventures which include grass roots developments?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Where would it go on any of the other tours, or any top level sport for that matter?

Hasn't Bryson already invested millions back into his business ventures which include grass roots developments?
		
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The level of “billions” going into pockets is vastly different in a number of ways from the LIV tour - not sure giving golfers £200mil just to play golf when they are already very rich is something that should be seen as a positive right now 

And I believe the PGAT donate a significant amount to charity each year ( over £3bn in total ) 

Liv money is mainly going into the pockets - LIV donate around £1mil to local charities 

But it’s not news that it’s the players benefitting from LIV


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## evemccc (Sep 5, 2022)

Shout out to Niblicks GC!! So far they’re the worst team in LIV Golf.
But they have the coolest name and logo 

These things matter 😂🤪

In all seriousness, Niblicks, Punch, HyFlyers, Ironheads, 4Aces and Crushers have quite cool logos…

The others though, look like they’ve been done by a 4 yr old


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## Jacko_G (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wouldn’t worry - it’s standard craw

He has always been very critical of a number of English golfers whilst blowing smoke up the odd Scottish golfer who maybe good enough to play on the tour - nowt wrong with the national pride but point it out even in jest to him and he shouts out racism - most just ignore it as opposed to pandering to his nonsense
		
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Oh the irony.

Mike  Mike, Mike. 

You forget how long I've been around here and I have a very good memory. And for the record I don't appreciate casual racism nor see why my nationality was brought into it.


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## Slab (Sep 6, 2022)

Its a tiny part of this but I'm wondering what the LIV players will do regards the ET 'request' for them not to wear LIV logo on their clothing for the BMW

Have they ever done this kind of thing before? 
(I mean there was a fella playing The Open with major league baseball sponsored clothing and iirc another player with huge PGAT lettering all over his shirt)


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Views from Matt ..
(including those on Scottish Open)
https://golfdigestme.com/matt-fitzp...ct-for-dp-world-tour-after-pga-tour-shake-up/


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## Backsticks (Sep 6, 2022)

Respect is determined by the quality of the field. The quality of the field is determined by the number of world top 30 golfers teeing up. The World Tour will have respect according to the number of top players like Fitzpatrick that play. Thats why the Euro tour was respected in the haydays of Monte, Seve, Faldo, Lyle, Olazabal etc. But isnt now. The same as the Saudi tour isnt respected now, but could be if it twists another half dozen top 30s to defect. If it doesnt achieve that it will remain unrespected.


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Some good points here I thought.
If somehow Westwood had birdied his last hole - majority of spectators were gambling on there being a play off.
And some valid points on the commentary.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/l...n/news-story/be88cf5df50dcbebb595ecf715f87197


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## Swango1980 (Sep 6, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Oh the irony.

Mike  Mike, Mike. 

You forget how long I've been around here and I have a very good memory. And for the record I don't appreciate casual racism nor see why my nationality was brought into it.
		
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Are Scottish people a race in their own right? Is "racism" the correct term?

It's funny, over the years I've known many people make comments towards me like "it's because he is Irish". I know a few Scots people, and sometimes something is said and they get "it's because he is Scottish".

I, or they, have never been offended by these casual stereotypes. 

I think more people get offended by people who make accusations of casual racism. After all, I doubt people really think bad things about a person who has been revealed as Scottish, or the fact that person may have extra pride in their own nation. However, some people will think bad things about people who have been accused as racist. So, if that accusation is incredibly unfair, it is an offensive one to make.


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Played an Open yesterday. Three teams tied on 90 points. Incredible finish. We need to get these events on youTube so everyone can enjoy them 

I also had 7 birdies, my best ever I think. The fans would love that
		
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Whilst I am _fairly_ sure this is tongue in cheek 😉, the point is valid  - exciting finishes can happen all over golf at various levels. The challenge IMO the entertainment industry has had across the various feeder tours is having enough interest for tickets & viewers up front for them to have a chance to see the finish.
Not suggesting you'd have that issue of course 😁


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 6, 2022)

Some of the replies 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566901589516128256


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Respect is determined by the quality of the field. The quality of the field is determined by the number of world top 30 golfers teeing up. The World Tour will have respect according to the number of top players like Fitzpatrick that play. Thats why the Euro tour was respected in the haydays of Monte, Seve, Faldo, Lyle, Olazabal etc. But isnt now. The same as the Saudi tour isnt respected now, but could be if it twists another half dozen top 30s to defect. If it doesnt achieve that it will remain unrespected.
		
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Generally agree. Know 30 is your number. Until recently the ogwr used the top 200 to derive field strength. I'm generally not surprised if someone in top 150 wins a decent size event such is depth these days, so I'm open to numbers higher than 30 personally.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567181535576473600
Think he is spot in regards some of the players 

Especially those who are just using the comp for ranking points- some ET players have missed out


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## BrianM (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567181535576473600
Think he is spot in regards some of the players

Especially those who are just using the comp for ranking points- some ET players have missed out
		
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Agree with this, players that have never played the event before shouldn't just be allowed to walk in.
Good to see that he defended the European players who have given loads to the tour been allowed to play and Patrick Reed  In fairness he has played in more than most in Europe.


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## BrianM (Sep 6, 2022)

Another thing with the interview how he was saying the media had hyped up this rivalry, don't get me wrong there is always people that don't get along and this might put fuel in the fire for some.
As an example Jon Rahm and Sergio are great friends, just because he made a decision he didn't agree with should it affect their friendship.
My wife makes decisions I'm not happy with all the time but I'm not going to divorce her because of it, yet 
Its an important part of the whole situation, because more and more will start coming out the longer these guys are spending more time together.
Especially with the new PGA minimum amount of events, which Fitzpatrick and Rahm have already needs to be sorted out.
Will be interesting to see what happens after Jay Monahan's visit, lets just hope Keith Pelley grows a set and starts fighting for the European Tour a bit more.


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## JSims (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567181535576473600
Think he is spot in regards some of the players

Especially those who are just using the comp for ranking points- some ET players have missed out
		
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I agree.
But are they breaking any rules?
It would have been good to have the field enlarged to allow for the regular ET players, that have been bumped by LIV ones, to also play.


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## evemccc (Sep 6, 2022)

I sincerely doubt Pelley has any loyalty to the ‘European’ aspect of the DP World tour…and the confirmation of another likely-blue-riband event today taking place in the ME confirms this to me 

When the FA Cup first had sponsorship, they insisted it was officially called something akin to ‘The FA Cup sponsored by Littlewoods’ (or whoever it was back then) — Pelley could have demanded the same with ET Tour and DP World


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## Whydowedoit (Sep 6, 2022)

"I could tell you but I can't be bothered...;-)"

Well that's so terrifically kind of you. I won't forget your helpfulness 


Yesterday at 9:44 PM


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

It'll never happen but I'd prefer it if they did away with co-sanctioning. Just have race to dubai points for actual European tour events.
Ancer who is one copping flak is listed on the European tour site as having 1 DPWT win!
Gooch, another, as having played 5 times on DPWT in 2022.
All a bit of a mess really. And why we often have race to dubai leaders not having played a 'genuine' European tour event.
I think Horschel played his first when he was 32 years old so wasn't exactly rushing to join in.


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## Backsticks (Sep 6, 2022)

IainP said:



			Generally agree. Know 30 is your number. Until recently the ogwr used the top 200 to derive field strength. I'm generally not surprised if someone in top 150 wins a decent size event such is depth these days, so I'm open to numbers higher than 30 personally.
		
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I think 30 is a good number though, if anything maybe lower. Its an exponential thing rather than linear, with the top players really defining the quality and peoples perception of the value if the tournament. Tiger is the extreme example in his prime, or even during the comeback season 18/19. 3 top 10 players are worth more than 20 players 50-100 ranking. Thats elite sport. Part celebrity and brand recognition, partly people watch sport to see the really best, not the 100th best. You could perm any number of players ranked 50-200, and while correctly, it changes the field difficulty, for the general spectator and interest, it doesnt change it a jot.
Thats why the make-weights in the LIV field count for nothing. They have 6 golfers.Good ones, and interesting no doubt. But the rest count as just filler, or champions/nostalgia tour stuff.


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Whydowedoit said:



			What happens to the unwanted 20/30/40 players who initially signed, but can’t play in the LIV event because LIV have now signed “better” players? Do they all just go back en masse & turn up to play on the European Tour? Will they get an “amnesty” if they then say sorry & sign a new contract with the European Tour? I don’t have the patience & time to check through 325 pages of posts either!
		
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https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2541914


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think 30 is a good number though, if anything maybe lower. Its an exponential thing rather than linear, with the top players really defining the quality and peoples perception of the value if the tournament. Tiger is the extreme example in his prime, or even during the comeback season 18/19. 3 top 10 players are worth more than 20 players 50-100 ranking. Thats elite sport. Part celebrity and brand recognition, partly people watch sport to see the really best, not the 100th best. You could perm any number of players ranked 50-200, and while correctly, it changes the field difficulty, for the general spectator and interest, it doesnt change it a jot.
Thats why the make-weights in the LIV field count for nothing. They have 6 golfers.Good ones, and interesting no doubt. But the rest count as just filler, or champions/nostalgia tour stuff.
		
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Thing is there are different types of spectator out there. Some for example will follow Fowler wherever he is playing. Some have continent, country, state/county loyalties. Many of us had a chuckle about Cameron tringale, but he might have a big following in California or because he represented Georgia Tech - I don't know. I do agree that majority of us are drawn to the top players, but the spectator link is complex IMO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2022)

IainP said:



			It'll never happen but I'd prefer it if they did away with co-sanctioning. Just have race to dubai points for actual European tour events.
Ancer who is one copping flak is listed on the European tour site as having 1 DPWT win!
Gooch, another, as having played 5 times on DPWT in 2022.
All a bit of a mess really. And why we often have race to dubai leaders not having played a 'genuine' European tour event.
I think Horschel played his first when he was 32 years old so wasn't exactly rushing to join in.
		
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The 5 events Gooch has played are majors and WGC

Abraham Ancer won a WGC 

They are counted as ET Events


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The 5 events Gooch has played are majors and WGC

Abraham Ancer won a WGC 

They are counted as ET Events
		
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Yes, that is the point being made 🤷‍♂️
Not sure what yours is though?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The 5 events Gooch has played are majors and WGC

Abraham Ancer won a WGC 

They are counted as ET Events
		
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I thought that was the point Ian was making?


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Luke going the diplomatic route..
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/lu...low&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yes, that is the point being made 🤷‍♂️
Not sure what yours is though?
		
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That the likes of Gooch and Co haven’t played on any actual ET events and shouldn’t be near the BMW

Apologies if misread


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## IainP (Sep 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That the likes of Gooch and Co haven’t played on any actual ET events and shouldn’t be near the BMW

Apologies if misread
		
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No problem 👍

Understand the view. 
Do think some attention should be pointed at the organisers though.
Horschel, and no doubt others, have taken same route in the past, straight into the BMW.
Need to decide if they want full members playing, or high ranked players.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2540776


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## rksquire (Sep 7, 2022)

The build-up to the 'flagship' event is being dominated by LIV chatter, it's only benefitting LIV and really they'd have been better off saying very little.... the whole thing is a mess of contradictions and posturing.  Rahm & Fitzpatrick clearly not happy with the new PGAT proposals.  McIlroy, who fleets in and out of his open & the flagship events as he pleases and is Monahan's puppet & seemingly complicit in what will ultimately be the demise of the DPWT is 'sick to his stomach' that the greedy golfers who went for the money now want to play some DPWT.  The irony of his $18m bonus in a 30 man field, upcoming PIP payment, and waning support for the DPWT is clearly lost on him.  Donald not ruling out the LIV guys playing Ryder Cup.  Garcia having the b*lls to insert himself into, and pat on the back!, Monahan's conversations.  The chatter of how lowly ranked players who play 20 DPWT events are missing out due to the LIV's guys presence - whilst also ignoring the fact the big European PGAT players are similarly guilty (FWIW, both the LIV & PGAT guys satisfy the criteria so should be there, if they desire to be so - isn't that the point? There's a pathway there to be followed and the lowly guys know what they're getting into.  I'm sure Couples would say, if you want to be there, earn it).  And then Westwood having his digs.  Pelley being present in body only - has there ever been a more pointless chief?  A new event for Ryder Cup preparation, at which the 'main' attractions will be allowed to avoid due to commitments to the PGAT!  

Unsavoury as it is, I wish the DPWT would grow a backbone and rail against LIV *and *the PGAT.  Dump the strategic alliance and co-sanctioned events.  Demand the big stalwarts earn their membership (if they are so worried about 'golf', why would they object?) by playing a minimum number of events.  Don't give away the emerging talent.  I'm absolutely serious that I think the DPWT could position itself fantastically well, like the scene from Love Actually, by Pelley telling Monahan that the DPWT will not be bullied and be prepared to be much stronger.  It won't happen, but it's now accepted LIV aren't going anywhere in the immediate future and their fields are getting stronger, but they also need another playground and it won't be the PGAT; it could be the DPWT and an arrangement between the two (with access to the 'money' and the ranking points) would see the PGAT weaken further.  For the DPWT, having the greedy players would increase interest, increase general attendance, attract bigger sponsorships - putting it on a much more secure footing.  As it is, 10 players probably in the top 30 Dubai rankings (the actual top 20 is dominated by players already with cards) could get PGAT cards.... there's a reason why players ranked 200 and worse play 20 events a year.

The build-up is ugly.  Hopefully the golf will be better.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 7, 2022)

Players fuelling the fire in regards to the situation are actually making the gap wider between the tours and the players.
It’s also bringing friendships that have been made over years on the tour to the edge.
Martin Kaymer who was and still is a hero to many feels the need to boycott the event,because he doesn’t feel wanted is a poor situation.
Imagine the atmosphere if some of these guys pair up.
Players talking about greed is the worst kind of hypocrisy,especially when your worth over 100 million yourself.


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## Beezerk (Sep 7, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Players fuelling the fire in regards to the situation are actually making the gap wider between the tours and the players.
		
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Agree, Billy Horschel’s comments haven’t helped with calming things down, yet lots of people are saying it’s the LIV golfers who should pipe down 👀


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## r0wly86 (Sep 7, 2022)

read an interesting article in the Sydney Herald, not sure if it has been commented on.

The LIV contracts that were seen in the court case, showed that if a player does not play in one of the 14 LIV events then they will be kicked out from the tour and have to repay any money given to them from the tour. Absences for illness and injury are permitted, but anything beyond that comes down to Greg Norman solely, say your child dies you would have to write to Norman to ask to be excused from an event, or risk having to pay back the millions of dollars you were given to join in the first place, if Norman says no then you are screwed


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## Slab (Sep 7, 2022)

Keith Pelley said last week of the LIV players playing this week:

_"They will not be given any on course competitive disadvantage – i.e. unfavorable tee times..."_

So there are both favorable and unfavorable tee times

Has anyone asked him; if its not the LIV players (& assuming it wont be the ET or PGAT bigger names either) Exactly which players are going to be given these unfavorable tee times and how do they feel about it?


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## Beezerk (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			say your child dies you would have to write to Norman to ask to be excused from an event, or risk having to pay back the millions of dollars you were given to join in the first place, if Norman says no then you are screwed
		
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Really? Do you genuinely believe that would have to happen?
Sounds like sensationalism at its finest there.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Really? Do you genuinely believe that would have to happen?
Sounds like sensationalism at its finest there.
		
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No it was a an example stretched to show a point. That beyond very narrow exceptions Norman has total power over the players, and the punishment for not playing without permission is extreme. Compare to the PGAT which has a similar number of tournaments that a player must play in, but has many more events in which to complete it. So if a player doesn't want to play a particular even they are free to do so.


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## Beezerk (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			No it was a an example stretched to show a point. That beyond very narrow exceptions Norman has total power over the players, and the punishment for not playing without permission is extreme. Compare to the PGAT which has a similar number of tournaments that a player must play in, but has many more events in which to complete it. So if a player doesn't want to play a particular even they are free to do so.
		
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I’m not aware of anyone dropping out of a LIV tournament yet so we don’t know what will happen, maybe they’ll cut their hands off 😬


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			read an interesting article in the Sydney Herald, not sure if it has been commented on.

The LIV contracts that were seen in the court case, showed that if a player does not play in one of the 14 LIV events then they will be kicked out from the tour and have to repay any money given to them from the tour. Absences for illness and injury are permitted, but anything beyond that comes down to Greg Norman solely, say your child dies you would have to write to Norman to ask to be excused from an event, or risk having to pay back the millions of dollars you were given to join in the first place, if Norman says no then you are screwed
		
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Not sure what the issue is? I'm sure if something horrific happens in any of their personal lives, GN would happily allow them to miss an event. It is probably exactly why it is worded in such a way, so as not to just be entirely black and white.

At the same time, LIV need to ensure players play in the events as contracted. If Phil Mickleson picked up his £200 million, and then decided he only wanted to play in 2 or 3 events, that is going to make LIV look silly. I'm assuming the contract money was paid up front, rather than instalments after each event?


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## Slab (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			No it was a an example stretched to show a point. That beyond very narrow exceptions Norman has total power over the players, and the punishment for not playing without permission is extreme. *Compare to the PGAT which has a similar number of tournaments that a player must play in, but has many more events in which to complete it. So if a player doesn't want to play a particular even they are free to do so*.
		
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Which is good... and bad

Players have more choice to plan in their calendars because there are so many events to choose from, but
The Top players are seldom all at the same event because they are spread out over so many events


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## r0wly86 (Sep 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure what the issue is? I'm sure if something horrific happens in any of their personal lives, GN would happily allow them to miss an event. It is probably exactly why it is worded in such a way, so as not to just be entirely black and white.

At the same time, LIV need to ensure players play in the events as contracted. If Phil Mickleson picked up his £200 million, and then decided he only wanted to play in 2 or 3 events, that is going to make LIV look silly. I'm assuming the contract money was paid up front, rather than instalments after each event?
		
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It doesn't necessarily have to be major, you could see major reasons not to play be allowed by Norman, however if it is a more minor reason why the person would not want to play the players do not have the ability to choose, or the punishment is enormous


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## BrianM (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It doesn't necessarily have to be major, you could see major reasons not to play be allowed by Norman, however if it is a more minor reason why the person would not want to play the players do not have the ability to choose, or the punishment is enormous
		
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Have you got a link for this, for context?


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## r0wly86 (Sep 7, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Have you got a link for this, for context?
		
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https://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/t...f-the-liv-golf-contracts-20220901-p5bejo.html

This is the article, I have only read this and not the contracts


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It doesn't necessarily have to be major, you could see major reasons not to play be allowed by Norman, however if it is a more minor reason why the person would not want to play the players do not have the ability to choose, or the punishment is enormous
		
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It is always subjective, hence the way it is worded. There may be a million reasons GN and LIV would accept for players to miss an event. If GN and LIV decided to heavily penalise any of these players, for a reason many people think are trivial, then it would be disastrous for LIV and their reputation. So, if they decided to take this route, I'm sure they would like to have very convincing reasons. I simply think they are protecting themselves in case a player takes the contracted money, and then just says they can't be bothered playing in an event. Or, if the other Tours had let them play on their events, to ensure no LIV golfer decides that they'd rather play on a PGA Tour event or DP World Tour event instead of the LIV event.


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## Beezerk (Sep 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It is always subjective, hence the way it is worded. There may be a million reasons GN and LIV would accept for players to miss an event. If GN and LIV decided to heavily penalise any of these players, for a reason many people think are trivial, then it would be disastrous for LIV and their reputation. So, if they decided to take this route, I'm sure they would like to have very convincing reasons. I simply think they are protecting themselves in case a player takes the contracted money, and then just says they can't be bothered playing in an event. Or, if the other Tours had let them play on their events, to ensure no LIV golfer decides that they'd rather play on a PGA Tour event or DP World Tour event instead of the LIV event.
		
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But that doesn’t make a good story, it’s amazing how people are spinning things in such a negative way without any real sort of hard facts to back it up. I recall MS getting absolutely demolished by all and sundry on here for something similar.


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## IainP (Sep 7, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’m not aware of anyone dropping out of a LIV tournament yet so we don’t know what will happen, maybe they’ll cut their hands off 😬
		
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Stenson last week?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Stenson last week?
		
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Dropped out with tendonitis - to be fair chopping has hands off would have sorted it, if it’s in his hands.


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## BrianM (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



https://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/t...f-the-liv-golf-contracts-20220901-p5bejo.html

This is the article, I have only read this and not the contracts
		
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I’m not really sure this is any different to the other tours, accept maybe they have a choice of which tournaments to play because they have a lot more.


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## RichA (Sep 7, 2022)

I have to get permission from my employer before taking compassionate leave. It's normal. It's a strange point to pick up on to attack the LIV contracts.


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## slowhand (Sep 7, 2022)

RichA said:



			I have to get permission from my employer before taking compassionate leave. It's normal. It's a strange point to pick up on to attack the LIV contracts.
		
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Not comparable, as I don't think your employer could make you pay back all the wages you had been paid up to that point if you took the leave without permission (you may get fired, though)


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## BiMGuy (Sep 7, 2022)

So much for being independent contractors!!


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## WGCRider (Sep 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			it would be disastrous for LIV and their reputation.
		
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The posts following yours talk about hands being chopped off etc. Is this the reputation they need to be worried about protecting?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			The posts following yours talk about hands being chopped off etc. Is this the reputation they need to be worried about protecting?
		
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Clearly, that is NOT the reputation they want to promote. In fact, they clearly want to promote the exact opposite of this. They want the world to see / believe how great they are, and that the golf that they are putting on for everyone is absolutely fantastic. So, if they were to start heavily penalising players for trivial issues, then they would be absolutely playing into the hands of people that are stirring up as much negative publicity as they can, including issues with their human rights record.

Simply from a golf point of view, I suspect there will be many in my boat that just can't get enthusiastic about LIV golf, and that it really offers nothing more than what we already had, and certainly doesn't come close to the Majors, WGCs and Ryder Cup. So LIV, I think, really have an uphill task of making it the Premier Tour in golf, and they certainly will want to limit any own goals as best they can.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 7, 2022)

😂😂😂


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## BTatHome (Sep 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Compare to the PGAT which has a similar number of tournaments that a player must play in, but has many more events in which to complete it. So if a player doesn't want to play a particular even they are free to do so.
		
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... hasn't the PGA just announced that the top players will be asked to play in an increased number of events (and specific events) to ensure that those events are higher profile? so in some respects (for some of the players) they do actually make some players attend certain events

obviously no idea what the penalties would be for them not attending though ... but then again nothing is really known about the LIV stance either (until someone is actually shown to be getting penalised in the way described)


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567543298453012480


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## rksquire (Sep 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567543298453012480

Click to expand...

And said with a straight face.... McIlroy played an event in January, let the lowly ranked fellas play in the filler tournaments since, and, having decided in July by the way(!), has swanned into Wentworth on his white horse to save the day for 'golf'!  He's not too worried on a personal level that he's taking the place of someone who has grafted for the last 7 months.  Of course, under the criteria, he qualifies to do so.... as do all the people he is criticizing.  Is he even self aware enough to realise that he is open to criticism (albeit not to the same extent!)?

That said, great fella, hope he wins!


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## BrianM (Sep 7, 2022)

Rory needs to stick to playing golf.
Some of these comments could come back to bite him on the bum!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 7, 2022)

How did the LIV players get to play this week? Did they qualify or did they ask? Presumably it is within the power of the tour as to who plays?

As Rory has just trousered $18m then maybe he could give up his spot to someone who really needs it?

There really is some guff being spoken right now.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567181535576473600
Think he is spot in regards some of the players

Especially those who are just using the comp for ranking points- some ET players have missed out
		
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Fair play to him for being open and honest. I like the fact that he took direct aim at the media also.  Every sky interview I’ve seen on sky go is them purposely trying to stir the pot.


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## IainP (Sep 7, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How did the LIV players get to play this week? Did they qualify or did they ask? Presumably it is within the power of the tour as to who plays?

As Rory has just trousered $18m then maybe he could give up his spot to someone who really needs it?

There really is some guff being spoken right now.
		
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Most qualified by world rankings (same as Horschel did when he first played)
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2544181


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Rory needs to stick to playing golf.
Some of these comments could come back to bite him on the bum!!
		
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It’s just a media fest - they are going to keep asking the question.  Seems Lowry was bit more blunt about them 


Lord Tyrion said:



			How did the LIV players get to play this week? Did they qualify or did they ask? Presumably it is within the power of the tour as to who plays?

As Rory has just trousered $18m then maybe he could give up his spot to someone who really needs it?

There really is some guff being spoken right now.
		
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They qualified via their world ranking at a certain stage in the year. It’s rare to see the US players coming across but for LiV players it’s perfect for their ranking points.

It is disappointing though to see the players wearing LIV clothing, that’s a bit poor imo


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## Swango1980 (Sep 7, 2022)

rksquire said:



			And said with a straight face.... McIlroy played an event in January, let the lowly ranked fellas play in the filler tournaments since, and, having decided in July by the way(!), has swanned into Wentworth on his white horse to save the day for 'golf'!  He's not too worried on a personal level that he's taking the place of someone who has grafted for the last 7 months.  Of course, under the criteria, he qualifies to do so.... as do all the people he is criticizing.  Is he even self aware enough to realise that he is open to criticism (albeit not to the same extent!)?

That said, great fella, hope he wins!
		
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Of course he isn't worried. The fact that high profile players like him play in this event make it what it is. And thus make it as lucrative as it is. If he didn't play, it would do the event more harm than good.

But, he also doesn't agree that the LIV golfers can have their cake and eat it. 

God forbid a sportsman should ever express their opinion though. I'm sure we'd all wish sportspeople were boring robots


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567566495659458563


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567575281929523202
Will be interesting to see what the elevated events in Europe are


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## IainP (Sep 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567575281929523202
Will be interesting to see what the elevated events in Europe are
		
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Agree, and will aim to keep an open mind.
Initial reaction, and acknowledge the recent pace of change ought to slow, 2024 feels a long way away right now.
Also, does feel like they've been backed into this, and ultimately whether a 'leopard can change its spots'. 
Still is likely the right kind of response.


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## Depreston (Sep 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course he isn't worried. The fact that high profile players like him play in this event make it what it is. And thus make it as lucrative as it is. If he didn't play, it would do the event more harm than good.

*But, he also doesn't agree that the LIV golfers can have their cake and eat it.*

God forbid a sportsman should ever express their opinion though. I'm sure we'd all wish sportspeople were boring robots 

Click to expand...

This is what it boils down to like it’s ridiculous the way the sellouts are going on


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## evemccc (Sep 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567575281929523202
Will be interesting to see what the elevated events in Europe are
		
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Interesting comments — I listened only once but I didn’t hear much to suggest that suddenly there would be hordes of top10 OWGR PGA Tour stars coming to loads of events in Europe….I would not be surprised if this translates in reality as them coming to DP World ‘elevated events’ — “globally” was the word used— and I feel sure that translates as in Dubai and Abu Dhabi


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## Backsticks (Sep 8, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



View attachment 44222

😂😂😂
		
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Its all over really, like a dismembering and butchering.


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## Slab (Sep 8, 2022)

Pretty glad the golf itself gets underway today, hopefully the media stop stoking the fire in every interview they do and just report on play itself


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## Backsticks (Sep 8, 2022)

The fire in the House of Golf is a bigger story though. People can, and some will, follow the play itself. But its flat beer compared to the Saudi v PGAT contest.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 11, 2022)

The accusation that Liv Players are past their best and can't compete on the main tours anymore looking a little off the mark with many having a strong showing in the DP Tours flagship event. 

The truth is, the level of golf on all 3 tours is very strong indeed.


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## Backsticks (Sep 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The accusation that Liv Players are past their best and can't compete on the main tours anymore looking a little off the mark with many having a strong showing in the DP Tours flagship event.

The truth is, the level of golf on all 3 tours is very strong indeed.
		
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The Saudi tour is weak compared to the PGAT by a long shot. It has a handful of top players. But golf isnt like tennis or track and field where the best tend to win a high percentage of the time. Golfers are much more variable, and so more subject to the number of players in the field with the possibility of winning. The smaller field, and the only half dozen at best of the worlds top 30 mean it is a significantly weaker field. The world tour is about similar, given that his has the mediocre-strength, but in depth. It also lacks star power, which Saudi has a glimmer of.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The accusation that Liv Players are past their best and can't compete on the main tours anymore looking a little off the mark with many having a strong showing in the DP Tours flagship event.

The truth is, the level of golf on all 3 tours is very strong indeed.
		
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Well it is only the three rounds - they are used to that 😉😁


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 11, 2022)

Really enjoyed watching the BMW..
Made up for Shane Lowry, defo one of my favourite players..

In a difficult golfing atmosphere the result probably please's everyone.

DP World Tour have one of their members and most popular players as the winner and their poster boy in 2nd place. 

Liv has 6 of their players in the top 18, 10 made the cut and for those players they got the world ranking points they came for.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 11, 2022)

Rahm looking like the next rumoured candidate to make the switch.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rahm looking like the next rumoured candidate to make the switch.
		
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You really think that after what he has said in the media this week 😂


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## Backsticks (Sep 11, 2022)

I guess if there are no actual switches in in the pipeline, then LIV has to settle for putting out rumours to distract from the recruitment campaign having run out of steam well short of a serious tour.


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## IainP (Sep 11, 2022)

Find it interesting that in a few months a new tribalism has sprung up around professional golf.
Not sure if the possible additional interest outweighs the division. 🤔


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## Marshy77 (Sep 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You really think that after what he has said in the media this week 😂
		
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Tbh it wouldn't surprise me. He seemed pretty annoyed the other week. I can't see it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did. I think the main reason he wouldn't would be the pull of playing in the Ryder cup.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 12, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Tbh it wouldn't surprise me. He seemed pretty annoyed the other week. I can't see it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did. I think the main reason he wouldn't would be the pull of playing in the Ryder cup.
		
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That's a fair point, but, he has already expresed his annoyance about the RC, and that Sergio wouldn't be allowed to play.

Also, a few on here also said I was wrong when I said Stenson would be moving over to LIV because of RC loyalties, but that information proved to be correct.

With Rahm, it's much more a case of reading between the lines, but a few people that are usually clued up seem to be hinting it could be him.


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## BTatHome (Sep 12, 2022)

IainP said:



			Find it interesting that in a few months a new tribalism has sprung up around professional golf.
Not sure if the possible additional interest outweighs the division. 🤔
		
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what's more amazing is the tribalism from posters on here, getting behind golfers that earn millions and trying to degrade other golfers that are trying to earn money to justify themselves. 

honestly cant believe the way people on this forum are reacting and trying to justify every single thing that happens in professional golf as a reason why one tour is better, and the name calling is getting to be beyond ridiculous.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Tbh it wouldn't surprise me. He seemed pretty annoyed the other week. I can't see it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did. I think the main reason he wouldn't would be the pull of playing in the Ryder cup.
		
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There seems to be a pattern forming when it comes to the “rumours” being posted on social media 

Whenever there is a major golf event that doesn’t involve LIV that’s when they start , it’s almost as if trying to keep LIV relevant when they don’t have an event on , happened at The Open , then the Fed Ex , etc and it was no surprise as soon as the PGA finished the “rumours” started again . The focus most of the time when it comes to LIV is more about what golfers they are trying to buy away as opposed to the actual golf - the rumour started on Twitter ( by your standard LIV’ers ) as a Top 10 player and then everyone’s ( other LIV’ers) imagination goes wild and it’s mainly the same names - Cantlay , Schuaffle, Hovland and Rahm.

Its imo LIV trying to keep up the relevance when the other tours are playing - right now if they are golf fans then it should be about the great play and finish at Wentworth


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Rahm looking like the next rumoured candidate to make the switch.
		
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It looks pretty obvious he isn't entirely on the same page as Rory and Tiger regarding the PGAT pkans

Majors wise he has a 10 year US Open exemption and 5 years in the other 3.

However I just can't see that happening at all at anytime. 
He has always been against the Liv event format in all his interviews..

Oh and where is this rumour reported anyway??

Livs best chance of future top 10 players are Cantlay and Schauffele


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## Marshy77 (Sep 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There seems to be a pattern forming when it comes to the “rumours” being posted on social media

Whenever there is a major golf event that doesn’t involve LIV that’s when they start , it’s almost as if trying to keep LIV relevant when they don’t have an event on , happened at The Open , then the Fed Ex , etc and it was no surprise as soon as the PGA finished the “rumours” started again . The focus most of the time when it comes to LIV is more about what golfers they are trying to buy away as opposed to the actual golf - the rumour started on Twitter ( by your standard LIV’ers ) as a Top 10 player and then everyone’s ( other LIV’ers) imagination goes wild and it’s mainly the same names - Cantlay , Schuaffle, Hovland and Rahm.

Its imo LIV trying to keep up the relevance when the other tours are playing - right now if they are golf fans then it should be about the great play and finish at Wentworth
		
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A large % of the rumours happened tbf.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 12, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			A large % of the rumours happened tbf.
		
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Tbf. If you name every player on the planet you are bound to get some right. 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			A large % of the rumours happened tbf.
		
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Oh don’t get me wrong they always are signing new players as they go along and most of the time they are well known who the player is - mainly from the player reaction in press conferences etc , hence Cam Smith 

The timing of the rumours are clearly done for a reason - it’s a very good marketing


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## Backsticks (Sep 12, 2022)

The precedent of rumour realisation can now be exploited though, which buys them time, but only so much. There doesnt seem to be any serious grounds now, and rumour might be the extent of it. If they get Rahm, thats a big pull, and one or two more would mean everyones a loser, with two half tours.
That the signings seem to have stopped, and there wasnt the - rumoured ! - post Fedex exodus, suggests Saudi golf tour is stalled as it is, as far as big names. And they didnt get enough.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Tbf. If you name every player on the planet you are bound to get some right. 😉
		
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Very true. I was getting at the more serious rumours rather than the throw a dart kind of rumours


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## rksquire (Sep 12, 2022)

I'd be surprised if Rahm left, some of the names mentioned above did have advanced discussions with LIV but ultimately stayed where they are for the promise of additional riches.  I'd be disappointed if Hovland moved at this stage of his career.  Hideki's package for the additonal value he brings to the PGAT has yet to be finalised; Rahm and Fitzpatrick aren't on the same page as McIlroy; Cantlay & Xander (good friends) are waiting at the moment with the former being more interested - his choice of words are the most telling.  Without doing much, LIV was a hot topic this week and the players played well, comfortable in a supposed competitive environment despite being retired.  Plus, they picked up world ranking points.... Gooch even moved up the rankings! I think for anyone on the fence, the past 2 weeks have been interesting - a good finish last week where the golf actually grabbed some headlines in a positive way, a good showing this week in the DPWT with ranking points, and some interesting comments showing that not everyone within sanctioned tours are on the same page.  

We're going to get rumours and nonesense from both sides to be honest.  It does seem to be helping McIlroy's golf though, so long may it continue!


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## IainP (Sep 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There seems to be a pattern forming when it comes to the “rumours” being posted on social media

Whenever there is a major golf event that doesn’t involve LIV that’s when they start , it’s almost as if trying to keep LIV relevant when they don’t have an event on , happened at The Open , then the Fed Ex , etc and it was no surprise as soon as the PGA finished the “rumours” started again . The focus most of the time when it comes to LIV is more about what golfers they are trying to buy away as opposed to the actual golf - the rumour started on Twitter ( by your standard LIV’ers ) as a Top 10 player and then everyone’s ( other LIV’ers) imagination goes wild and it’s mainly the same names - Cantlay , Schuaffle, Hovland and Rahm.

Its imo LIV trying to keep up the relevance when the other tours are playing - right now if they are golf fans then it should be about the great play and finish at Wentworth
		
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Agree on rumours.  To be fair though I'm not sure they needed to keep liv in the news with the volume of liv references from those who aren’t actually part if it.
Maybe some of it is PIP driven, but do wonder if some will look back and wonder if they could have achieved more by staying more silent, and keeping it out of the headlines?
Perhaps seem less hypercritical also maybe. 🤔


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 12, 2022)

Interesting read on European Liv players at the BMW and some who were not there.. 

https://www.alistairtaitgolf.com/post/the-european-dis-union


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## RichA (Sep 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Interesting read on European Liv players at the BMW and some who were not there.. 

https://www.alistairtaitgolf.com/post/the-european-dis-union

Click to expand...

It reads like a biased bit of tabloidy-style propaganda, aimed at widening the division. Other news reports I've read suggested that there wasn't any hostility to the LIV guys and the likes of Westwood and Poulter were treated by the public exactly the same as usual.


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## IainP (Sep 12, 2022)

RichA said:



			It reads like a biased bit of tabloidy-style propaganda, aimed at widening the division. Other news reports I've read suggested that there wasn't any hostility to the LIV guys and the likes of Westwood and Poulter were treated by the public exactly the same as usual.
		
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Agree on the treated by majority of public bit,  but I read the article as more about players to players & administrators to players  - and it may have a point...


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## evemccc (Sep 12, 2022)

RichA said:



			It reads like a biased bit of tabloidy-style propaganda, *aimed at widening the division*. Other news reports I've read suggested that there wasn't any hostility to the LIV guys and the likes of Westwood and Poulter were treated by the public exactly the same as usual.
		
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Really?
Propaganda merely because you don’t agree with it? Which bits, specifically, do you think is not merely interpretation of events / opinion, but propaganda?

I think the article is a bit overblown slightly with the length of ‘service’ given by players (seems like they’re doing it from their benevolent heart..) but I agree in the main with the points he’s making

The division is surely exacerbated by the somewhat sarcastic childish jibes from Rory, Lowry, Horschel etc


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## Backsticks (Sep 12, 2022)

A newspaper article has zero influence on what players on either side thing about the matter or the level of division between them. The amount of the exchange between the players that is in the public sphere for journalists to write about is an insignificant fraction of the exchange that has really taken place.


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## RichA (Sep 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Really?
Propaganda merely because you don’t agree with it? Which bits, specifically, do you think is not merely interpretation of events / opinion, but propaganda?

I think the article is a bit overblown slightly with the length of ‘service’ given by players (seems like they’re doing it from their benevolent heart..) but I agree in the main with the points he’s making

The division is surely exacerbated by the somewhat sarcastic childish jibes from Rory, Lowry, Horschel etc
		
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Propaganda in the way that it's written from a biased perspective. Like when I read my Dad's Telegraph or flick through a Guardian at a mate's house. I like my news to be neutral and that article clearly wasn't. 
Aside from disliking the regime that is funding it, I'm not anti-LIV. I don't care or know enough about pro golf to have much of an opinion. I just find this thread fascinating because people seem to care so much about something that has so little impact on the life of all but a few dozen multi-millionaires and their hangers-on. The journalists view is so obvious that it's more of an editorial than a report of facts.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 13, 2022)

The PGA fanboys really are quite comical when they see anything LIV related 😂😂

Just enjoy golf 🤷‍♂️


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## Beezerk (Sep 13, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			The PGA fanboys really are quite comical when they see anything LIV related 😂😂

Just enjoy golf 🤷‍♂️
		
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PGA rumour gets mooted…oooh that’s interesting etc etc 
LIV rumour gets mooted, aaargh that’s bull, they’re only doing it to steal the headlines, it’s all bad blah blah 
😂


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 13, 2022)

RichA said:



			It reads like a biased bit of tabloidy-style propaganda, aimed at widening the division. Other news reports I've read suggested that there wasn't any hostility to the LIV guys and the likes of Westwood and Poulter were treated by the public exactly the same as usual.
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569365893645475840


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			PGA rumour gets mooted…oooh that’s interesting etc etc
LIV rumour gets mooted, aaargh that’s bull, they’re only doing it to steal the headlines, it’s all bad blah blah
😂
		
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Honestly mate they love it.
Better than Eastenders for them 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569365893645475840

Click to expand...

Imagine Westwood being happy with an article that’s very pro him 😂

And as for Poulter 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569430266933919745
There is always two sides to everything 

Westwood a number of times left the ET to go to the PGA tour to “chase the money”

Poulter jumped as soon as he could 

It’s a shame that the recent event there are some looking to overshadow it all 

As someone said - the article just points the fingers at other golfers and away from the LIV golfers , doesn’t add anything but further issues as can be see by the spat between Weir and Poulter


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine Westwood being happy with an article that’s very pro him 😂

And as for Poulter


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569430266933919745
There is always two sides to everything

Westwood a number of times left the ET to go to the PGA tour to “chase the money”

Poulter jumped as soon as he could

It’s a shame that the recent event there are some looking to overshadow it all

As someone said - the article just points the fingers at other golfers and away from the LIV golfers , doesn’t add anything but further issues as can be see by the spat between Weir and Poulter
		
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Why is there a lawsuit Phil?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why is there a lawsuit Phil?
		
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Why do you think ? 

Because the players jumped to join a tour that paid a lot of money and the DP tour decided that was not in line with the membership and it was the same as the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

Did the players think they could just go and play a tour that was exclusive and a closed shop and then just come back and play other events that they picked ?


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 13, 2022)

This strong rumour that another top 10 player is going to Liv (or has signed already)  is probably true given past moves after such rumours but I can only see it being Cantlay.

I would be flabbergasted if it was Rahm or Hovland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			This strong rumour that another top 10 player is going to Liv (or has signed already)  is probably true given past moves after such rumours but I can only see it being Cantlay.

I would be flabbergasted if it was Rahm or Hovland.
		
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Cantlay and Schaffle seem the two most obvious 

Have to say it’s no chance for Rahm - Hovland not so sure , he always seem an odd one out

I’m still thinking it’s a bit of taking the limelight away from the current Event


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you think ?

Because the players jumped to join a tour that paid a lot of money and the DP tour decided that was not in line with the membership and it was the same as the PGAT 🤷‍♂️

Did the players think they could just go and play a tour that was exclusive and a closed shop and then just come back and play other events that they picked ?
		
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So the DPWT could have avoided any legal repercussions by letting the LIV players play in their events, like they just have?

Did the LIV players reduce the quality of the field at all?
Surely any tour wants the best players in show they can attract?
Why have the Asian Tour embraced the LIV concept while the DPWT haven’t?
Is it not a debatable point that the money that has gone into the Asian Tour could have gone into the DPWT if they’d have been able to negotiate an agreement?


I’d love to know how the DPWT is stronger without these guys playing, because it simply wouldn’t be, the finishing positions at Wentworth will confirm that.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cantlay and Schaffle seem the two most obvious

Have to say it’s no chance for Rahm - Hovland not so sure , he always seem an odd one out
		
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What do you mean by odd one out?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So the DPWT could have avoided any legal repercussions by letting the LIV players play in their events, like they just have?
		
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Only playing because of the injunction - that may well change from Feb and can see the tour pushing to ensure they don’t play 




			Did the LIV players reduce the quality of the field at all?
Surely any tour wants the best players in show they can attract?
Why have the Asian Tour embraced the LIV concept while the DPWT haven’t?
Is it not a debatable point that the money that has gone into the Asian Tour could have gone into the DPWT if they’d have been able to negotiate an agreement?
		
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The Asian tour embraced the huge level of money from LiV - they have bought the tour - the ET didn’t want that to happen with LIV 



			I’d love to know how the DPWT is stronger without these guys playing, because it simply wouldn’t be, the finishing positions confirm that.
		
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Is it all about “how strong the tour is” 

Should that be the priority 

Why should the tour allow these players that have decided to go to another tour to pretty much “have their whole cake” ? Why should they be ok to pick and chose and then just jump into ET events that they need to keep up their ranking points ? 

Why should everyone bend over backwards to accommodate LIV when LIV itself is very much a closed shop and doesn’t accommodate the other tours


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			What do you mean by odd one out?
		
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He just seems like he is very tunnel visioned and his own person and at times seems to feel awkward in public etc - he always seems to look lonely , maybe it’s just his persona but if he went to LIV it wouldn’t be a shock.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He just seems like he is very tunnel visioned and his own person and at times seems to feel awkward in public etc - he always seems to look lonely , maybe it’s just his persona but if he went to LIV it wouldn’t be a shock.
		
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I find that a strange analysis. Hovland is one of the few on tour that you see smiling and laughing. He seems very happy with life out on the course.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He just seems like he is very tunnel visioned and his own person and at times seems to feel awkward in public etc - he always seems to look lonely , maybe it’s just his persona but if he went to LIV it wouldn’t be a shock.
		
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Really? I probably see the opposite in him. Tunnel visioned as in switched on, professional, plays every round to win and comes across as a very likable person and that showed at the Ryder Cup despite his poor performance.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Really? I probably see the opposite in him. Tunnel visioned as in switched on, professional, plays every round to win and comes across as a very likable person and that showed at the Ryder Cup despite his poor performance.
		
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Apparently according to Paddy everyone in the team wanted to be his partner.
Seems very likeable,always gives an honest interview.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find that a strange analysis. Hovland is one of the few on tour that you see smiling and laughing. He seems very happy with life out on the course.
		
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He certainly seemed that way when he took Rory on in the fun one club challenge. 
Always looks stoned to me 😂


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2022)

Everyone needs to go back and read the first 20 odd pages of this thread.
Look how many got it all wrong about what Liv would become,yet as it’s all changed and unfolded,all of a sudden they’ve changed and had to change there tune.
Yet still people speak as if they know exactly what these golfers are thinking.
Don’t be surprised is anyone comes over,nobody knows what is going on behind the scenes with any golfer,and to suggest you do is Bs.
Never say never when serious amounts of money is being banded about.
Humans are greedy pure and simple.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 13, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			He certainly seemed that way when he took Rory on in the fun one club challenge.
Always looks stoned to me 😂
		
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Nothing wrong with that 😀


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## Depreston (Sep 13, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			He certainly seemed that way when he took Rory on in the fun one club challenge.
Always looks stoned to me 😂
		
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someone on social media said he's just a stoned rory and i can't unsee it


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find that a strange analysis. Hovland is one of the few on tour that you see smiling and laughing. He seems very happy with life out on the course.
		
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Marshy77 said:



			Really? I probably see the opposite in him. Tunnel visioned as in switched on, professional, plays every round to win and comes across as a very likable person and that showed at the Ryder Cup despite his poor performance.
		
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yeah seems happy when playing - always smiling but away from the course seems a very quiet and reserved person, seems to be one of the less vocal players. Even when he was asked back in June it was a very short interview etc


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yeah seems happy when playing - always smiling but away from the course seems a very quiet and reserved person, seems to be one of the less vocal players. Even when he was asked back in June it was a very short interview etc
		
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Not everyone is a party person. Anyway, is that a bit of a Scandinavian thing, a cultural trait? Short and to the point. 

He is a big player, both now and for the future. All tours would want him.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yeah seems happy when playing - always smiling but *away from the course seems a very quiet and reserved person, *seems to be one of the less vocal players. Even when he was asked back in June it was a very short interview etc
		
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Unlike Rory who gets a bit tiresome imo.
Give me the stoned Norwegian any day 😊


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not everyone is a party person. Anyway, is that a bit of a Scandinavian thing, a cultural trait? Short and to the point.

He is a big player, both now and for the future. All tours would want him.
		
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Just to clear up that I’m not being negative about him - he is a superb player who I hope doesn’t go near LiV and continues his career on the PGA and ET with hopefully a major coming soon


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## Oddsocks (Sep 13, 2022)

I wonder which thread has a longer shelf life, 

1. I brought today, 
2. Today I played 
3. This, solely fuelled by disagreements.

I wonder what odds Ladbroke will give me on -#3


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## IainP (Sep 13, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I wonder which thread has a longer shelf life,

1. I brought today,
2. Today I played
3. This, solely fuelled by disagreements.

I wonder what odds Ladbroke will give me on -#3
		
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Reckon its very long odds on number 1 ! 😉😁😄


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## BiMGuy (Sep 13, 2022)

Who brought what?


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## IainP (Sep 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Who brought what?
		
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I read it was pink castle tees 🤔🤫


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## BiMGuy (Sep 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			I read it was pink castle tees 🤔🤫
		
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Filthy animals.


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## MACM85 (Sep 14, 2022)

Rumours of Rahm joining LIV


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## Beezerk (Sep 14, 2022)

MACM85 said:



			Rumours of Rahm joining LIV
		
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Seen an article on Golf Magic, the headline is basically blaming Rory 😬


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## davidy233 (Sep 14, 2022)

MACM85 said:



			Rumours of Rahm joining LIV
		
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Started by a LIV fan twitter account with 201 followers


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## MACM85 (Sep 14, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Started by a LIV fan twitter account with 201 followers
		
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I saw it on golf magic. Not sure where they got the news from. Be a massive blow to lose him from the PGA


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## pauljames87 (Sep 14, 2022)

MACM85 said:



			Rumours of Rahm joining LIV
		
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I don't see it at all. Rahm has been vocal against Liv and want to play against the best etc etc 

However they have deep pockets so who knows


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## Springveldt (Sep 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't see it at all. Rahm has been vocal against Liv and want to play against the best etc etc

However they have deep pockets so who knows
		
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If he does go I doubt it's for the money.

He seemed really annoyed about the new PGA Tour schedule and he has 2 young kids now. If LIV allow him to play less events and only 3 day weeks maybe it's more appealing to him now.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 14, 2022)

MACM85 said:



			I saw it on golf magic. Not sure where they got the news from. Be a massive blow to lose him from the PGA
		
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They tagged Handicap 54 in that report I believe. 

He alluded there could be some truth in the Rahm rumours, and is the same guy that interviewed Carlos Ortiz - who I guess has given him some inside info. 

He’s at the Italian Open at the moment - infact he’s interviewed Luke Donald and asked him about the Ballesteros family / Hero cup. Donald has confirmed that the DPWT are speaking to the family about the retaining Seves name in some way with the event, which would be great news (albeit nothing to do with LIV)


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 14, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Sep 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:









Click to expand...

Probably no coincidence that Rory has been stating LIV players shouldn’t be allowed to compete in the Ryder Cup, they’re obviously still trying to stop the top players from ditching the PGA /DPW Tours in favour of LIV. 
Unfortunately, if they don’t let the captains have the chance to pick the best players, then the RC is done as the competition we have known.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Probably no coincidence that Rory has been stating LIV players shouldn’t be allowed to compete in the Ryder Cup, they’re obviously still trying to stop the top players from ditching the PGA /DPW Tours in favour of LIV.
Unfortunately, if they don’t let the captains have the chance to pick the best players, then the RC is done as the competition we have known.
		
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It imo will never be the same again 
Greed unfortunately has seen to that.
Rory is bitter beyond words.
Friendships built over years on the tour,he’s now just dumping his mates and putting the knife in.
All of a sudden he’s become spokesperson and widening the divide.
Imagine if Luke could pick Liv players what a terrible atmosphere that would create.
Feel for Luke he’s really up against it,and that is mightily unfair on him.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 14, 2022)

I see it as hovland, young and sitting in Rory’s shadow even though he’s past form is strong.  He also appeals to a younger generation.

He’ll do it the same way smith done, bomb dropping


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 14, 2022)

It would appear that top players are going to continue to trickle across to Liv.

Although a Hovland or Rahm would undoubtably be another big coup for Liv I think a real needle mover would be if some top young American players were to move across like Xander Schauffele or Collin Morikawa.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Probably no coincidence that Rory has been stating LIV players shouldn’t be allowed to compete in the Ryder Cup, they’re obviously still trying to stop the top players from ditching the PGA /DPW Tours in favour of LIV.
Unfortunately, if they don’t let the captains have the chance to pick the best players, then the RC is done as the competition we have known.
		
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The LIV players won’t qualify via the points system and I have no doubt that Donald won’t pick any LIV players - I don’t tbink the European RC team will be enhanced by any of them as there isn’t really any “top” European player on LIV - the likes of Westwood etc have prob finished their RC career 

The US also imo won’t pick anyone from LIV but they do miss the likes of DJ , BDC and Koepka who would be around the team - but their depth is very strong 

The Ryder Cup will still be the biggest event outside the majors next year


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## Backsticks (Sep 14, 2022)

Rumour Zalatoris, Morikawa, and Spieth not going to the Saudi tour.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The LIV players won’t qualify via the points system and I have no doubt that Donald won’t pick any LIV players - I don’t tbink the European RC team will be enhanced by any of them as there isn’t really any “top” European player on LIV - the likes of Westwood etc have prob finished their RC career

The US also imo won’t pick anyone from LIV but they do miss the likes of DJ , BDC and Koepka who would be around the team - but their depth is very strong

The Ryder Cup will still be the biggest event outside the majors next year
		
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That’s a massive drop then because the Ryder cup is much bigger than any major.
Players say it all the time .


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## Harry Putter (Sep 14, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Everyone needs to go back and read the first 20 odd pages of this thread
		
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I think I'd rather stick hot pins in my eyes.


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## IainP (Sep 14, 2022)

Try to stay away from the rumours, but confess it does draw you in.

I have looked back at the PIF event earlier in the year which was probably when the potential upheaval to come first reached my consciousness. I suspect most of the higher ranked players were being courted and were considering options at the time.

If you click on 'field breakdown' it orders by the ranking at the time.
https://www.owgr.com/events/pif-saudi-international-powered-by-softbank-investment-advisers-9402

I recall Lowry taking some heat which perhaps changed his course...
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/he...ion-to-play-controversial-saudi-international


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570134495151656961


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570134495151656961

Click to expand...

Rahm was never the one going.
It will be Cantlay imo..


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## PieMan (Sep 14, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Imagine if Luke could pick Liv players what a terrible atmosphere that would create.
Feel for Luke he’s really up against it,and that is mightily unfair on him.
		
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If Luke Donald picked any European LIV players then I'd question his sanity!! There's no way any of them are good enough now for the RC! I'd much rather he picked 4 or 5 rookies than Poulter, Westwood etc. Both Hojgaard brothers are better bets, as is 
Rob MacIntyre.

I actually think Donald has it good at the moment - Rory, Hovland, Rahm, Lowry, Fitzpatrick - that's an incredibly strong core. And if Fleetwood and Hatton get some form back then the European Team is actually in very good shape I think.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 14, 2022)

PieMan said:



			If Luke Donald picked any European LIV players then I'd question his sanity!! There's no way any of them are good enough now for the RC! I'd much rather he picked 4 or 5 rookies than Poulter, Westwood etc. Both Hojgaard brothers are better bets, as is
Rob MacIntyre.

I actually think Donald has it good at the moment - Rory, Hovland, Rahm, Lowry, Fitzpatrick - that's an incredibly strong core. And if Fleetwood and Hatton get some form back then the European Team is actually in very good shape I think.
		
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Yes, the Hojgaard brothers are the future. The LIV bros have had their time and I guess they know this which is part of why they moved. It's a strong team to be fair without them. Still players like Pieters, Detry, Meronk who could still find a spot.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 14, 2022)

PieMan said:



			If Luke Donald picked any European LIV players then I'd question his sanity!! There's no way any of them are good enough now for the RC! I'd much rather he picked 4 or 5 rookies than Poulter, Westwood etc. Both Hojgaard brothers are better bets, as is 
Rob MacIntyre.

I actually think Donald has it good at the moment - Rory, Hovland, Rahm, Lowry, Fitzpatrick - that's an incredibly strong core. And if Fleetwood and Hatton get some form back then the European Team is actually in very good shape I think.
		
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If he picks new blood and fails he can blame LIV, if they win he’ll be classed as a god.  

I expect Europe to get hammered but the old safe bets have gone and long term the euro team should be stronger for longer.


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## evemccc (Sep 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Rahm was never the one going.
It will be Cantlay imo..
		
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They can have him

Patrick Cantlay is well past his prime..


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## HeftyHacker (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			They can have him

Patrick Cantlay is well past his prime..
		
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😂😂😂

Yeah well past it, been a little over 12 months since he won the tour championship!


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			They can have him

Patrick Cantlay is well past his prime..
		
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Here we go, or was it a joke


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:




Here we go, or was it a joke 

Click to expand...

Come on, every player going to LIV is a has been. Surely you know that by now. They are only one step away from hacking it around in your local monthly medal.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 15, 2022)

30 years old - past it.

Jaysus.


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## evemccc (Sep 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:




Here we go, or was it a joke 

Click to expand...

@HeftyHacker @Lord Tyrion @Mel Smooth  …🎣👀

I expected better lads tsk tsk


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



@HeftyHacker @Lord Tyrion @Mel Smooth  …🎣👀

I expected better lads tsk tsk
		
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In my defence, it's still early


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



@HeftyHacker @Lord Tyrion @Mel Smooth  …🎣👀

I expected better lads tsk tsk
		
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Well we're aren't sure if you're a PGA bot 😅


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Its forgiveable - LIV just has that semi-senior tour association pretty strongly now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



@HeftyHacker @Lord Tyrion @Mel Smooth  …🎣👀

I expected better lads tsk tsk
		
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Mel Smooth said:



			In my defence, it's still early 

Click to expand...




Beezerk said:



			Well we're aren't sure if you're a PGA bot 😅
		
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All as above  

(saves us posting it for the person who posts it and actually means it )


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			They can have him

Patrick Cantlay is well past his prime..
		
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😂😂

Well played 🎣 

Can see him leaving no doubt 

But have a feeling it’s Schuaffle


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			😂😂

Well played 🎣

Can see him leaving no doubt

But have a feeling it’s Schuaffle
		
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Xander was quoted recently supporting Phil Mickleson being right in what he said about the PGAT, he just went about it in the wrong way.

With all the Liv rumour its so easy to read more into quotes than we should.
Rahm says he is not entirely happy with Rorys PGA Tour plan and all of a sudden, he is going to Liv....

Some players have said they are committed to the PGAT and then leave for Liv a few weeks later.

Its just a total guessing game till they are officially announced but it keeps Liv in the news spotlight which is great for them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Its just a total guessing game till they are officially announced but it keeps Liv in the news spotlight which is great for them.
		
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I think Rory is doing his best to single handidly keep LIV in the spotlight. He probably gets them more clicks, column inches etc than anyone working for LIV.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Moving from rumours to facts, though, there are no new jumpers since Smith. Seasons are over other than the Saudi tour. By LIV spin record, there are really any rumours either. So that may actually be it, as far as golfer who matter goes.


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Moving from rumours to facts, though, there are no new jumpers since Smith. Seasons are over other than the Saudi tour. By LIV spin record, there are really any rumours either. So that may actually be it, as far as golfer who matter goes.
		
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I’m pretty certain there will be more movers in the coming months, when does the desert swing start, new year is it?


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			That’s a massive drop then because the Ryder cup is much bigger than any major.
Players say it all the time .
		
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Next years Ryder Cup is already a damp squib, unless the US team picks some of their Saudi squad, and doesnt look like that id happening. So it is no longer a full contest. A weakened US team devalues the RC, and its probably the end of the road for it as a top ranking event. Its similar to the way the FA Cup died the time Man Utd went to play in an exhibition event instead years ago.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’m pretty certain there will be more movers in the coming months, when does the desert swing start, new year is it?
		
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Possibly, possibly. But both actual defections, and rumours, seem to have dried up exactly when it might have been expected to be rush hour, and as some BeLIVers were touting a couple of months ago.


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## Imurg (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Moving from rumours to facts, though, there are no new jumpers since Smith. Seasons are over other than the Saudi tour. By LIV spin record, there are really any rumours either. So that may actually be it, as far as golfer who matter goes.
		
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Seasons are over?
The 2023 PGA Tour starts today....


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Seasons are over?
The 2023 PGA Tour starts today....
		
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Thats what I mean. 2022 Season done last weekend, and the weekend before on World Tour and PGAT. Previously, predictions were for an end of season exodus before the new season began. That has not happened.


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats what I mean. 2022 Season done last weekend, and the weekend before on World Tour and PGAT. Previously, predictions were for an end of season exodus before the new season began. That has not happened.
		
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Yet 👀
Christ the season only ended 4 days ago didn’t it 😂


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Moving from rumours to facts, though, there are no new jumpers since Smith. Seasons are over other than the Saudi tour. By LIV spin record, there are really any rumours either. So that may actually be it, as far as golfer who matter goes.
		
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DJ dropped a major hint in his winning press conference in Boston saying next years Liv fields will be even stronger so probably wont see any more defectors till next year

UNLESS

Some have decided they wanted to play Presidents Cup before jumping ???

There is no stopping the rumour mill as it helps fill the column inches for the golfing media.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Seasons are over?
The 2023 PGA Tour starts today....
		
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It’s only September, … WTF! 🤷🏼


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2022)

Apple and Amazon reported as turning down the chance to broadcast LIV golf next year. Looks like this is just for the US as previous posts have indicated that it's already being broadcast on TV in other parts of the world. Is it already broadcast on TV in Europe or just on YouTube?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...tm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Just youtube in the UK, but may have different deals in other countries. Sky is still going all in on PGAT/WT and terrestrial channels not interested here. For the moment. I would guess none of them want the bad publicity and controversy it would bring.


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## evemccc (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Just youtube in the UK, but may have different deals in other countries. Sky is still going all in on PGAT/WT and terrestrial channels not interested here. For the moment. I would guess *none of them want the bad publicity and controversy it would bring*.
		
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Sky loved the idea of facilitating the promotion of two Anthony Joshua boxing matches in Saudi Arabia tho — certainly had no issue with that - 

And I don’t follow football really, but I would be shocked if they ever had an issue with NUFC and debated this critically, before live they broadcast their matches


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## Swango1980 (Sep 15, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Sky loved the idea of facilitating the promotion of two Anthony Joshua boxing matches in Saudi Arabia tho — certainly had no issue with that - 

And I don’t follow football really, but I would be shocked if they ever had an issue with NUFC and debated this critically, before live they broadcast their matches
		
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However, a top class boxing match featuring Anthony Joshua, or Premier League matches featuring NUFC are credible sporting events, played in the same manner elite events were played before and Middle East link. They remain credible events, and any controversy ifms just a backstory.

LIV golf is not a credible golfing tour, played in the same vain as the elite events pre LIV. It is a group of random professional golfers asked to play in a string of random golf competitions. Just because it entertains some people, does not make it credible in terms of elite competitive sport. It has a long way to go to earn those stripes. So, main broadcasters are not likely to invest in an event that is unlikely to be supported by a significant number of golf fans, especially due to the controversial links it has.


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## 4LEX (Sep 15, 2022)

Now that LIV have a fairly decent cohort of players, I think theres a alot of resentment that they've literally devalued every golf event by taking away some big names. Saudi Arabia have diluted professional golf and everyone loses out apart from them and Greg Norman. It's going to risk tarnishing the majors and the Ryder Cup, a century of history and tradition down the drain.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

Majors no. 
Ryder Cup, yes. Infact, already now tarnished, now obsolete.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Majors no.
Ryder Cup, yes. Infact, already now tarnished, now obsolete.
		
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Nonsense.

The European team will be stronger with the old guard gone. And the USA have such strength in depth no one will notice those that are missing.


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## Crow (Sep 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Nonsense.

The European team will be stronger with the old guard gone. And the USA have such strength in depth no one will notice those that are missing.
		
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Ryder Cup is dead in the water for me.


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## Backsticks (Sep 15, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Nonsense.

The European team will be stronger with the old guard gone. And the USA have such strength in depth no one will notice those that are missing.
		
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BiMGuy said:



			Nonsense.

The European team will be stronger with the old guard gone. And the USA have such strength in depth no one will notice those that are missing.
		
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Yes, the European team, with the current defectors, will be unaffected. But the US team wont be picking from the full deck, so its no longer a first team selection. So Ryder Cup that wont mean anything, especially if Europe were to win it. Either way, as long as Saudi GT around, and either team not fielding full strength teams, its in hibernation as a serious sporting contest. Cant see myself watching it any more. If the Saudis folded their tent though, and it was back to proper first choice teams, then it could revive some day.


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Now that LIV have a fairly decent cohort of players, I think theres a alot of resentment that *they've literally devalued every golf event* by taking away some big names. Saudi Arabia have diluted professional golf and everyone loses out apart from them and Greg Norman. It's going to risk tarnishing the majors and the Ryder Cup, a century of history and tradition down the drain.
		
Click to expand...

That's a big shout. There are 12 professional golf events this weekend listed on OWGR.
Where are Scheffler, Cantlay, Schauffele, Rahm, Thomas, Morikawa playing?


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## 4LEX (Sep 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			That's a big shout. There are 12 professional golf events this weekend listed on OWGR.
Where are Scheffler, Cantlay, Schauffele, Rahm, Thomas, Morikawa playing?
		
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You have a point. I was talking mainly about the biggest events and into next year.

Sadly this is one of those situations where theres no winner, only losers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, the European team, with the current defectors, will be unaffected. But the US team wont be picking from the full deck, so its no longer a first team selection. So Ryder Cup that wont mean anything, especially if Europe were to win it. Either way, as long as Saudi GT around, and either team not fielding full strength teams, its in hibernation as a serious sporting contest. Cant see myself watching it any more. If the Saudis folded their tent though, and it was back to proper first choice teams, then it could revive some day.
		
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You always seem to have a very extreme strange view 

The Ryder Cup will be just as big if not bigger next regards of missing a couple of Yanks who will be easily replaced 

To suggest it’s obsolete is complete nonsense


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			That's a big shout. There are 12 professional golf events this weekend listed on OWGR.
Where are Scheffler, Cantlay, Schauffele, Rahm, Thomas, Morikawa playing?
		
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it’s downtime for a number of the players after the long season and before the Presidents Cup next week


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## Harry Putter (Sep 15, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Now that LIV have a fairly decent cohort of players, I think theres a alot of resentment that they've literally devalued every golf event by taking away some big names. Saudi Arabia have diluted professional golf and everyone loses out apart from them and Greg Norman. It's going to risk tarnishing the majors and the Ryder Cup, a century of history and tradition down the drain.
		
Click to expand...

This absolutely 

The only winners are Greg Norman, who's fluffed up ego is even more fluffed up now.. and the multi-millionaire players who are even richer with cash that to be honest, they don't really need.

For the average golf fanatic they are watching weakened fields in DP, PGA and LIV events.. they can no longer watch the best in the world at a tournament, competing against the fellow best in the world... apart from maybe 4 events a year.  It's just sad for the game, sad for the punter and sad for the tradition.

I hope GN is happy with both his bank account and the divisive split he's helped create in a sport that had centuries of history and will never be the same again.


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			it’s downtime for a number of the players after the long season and before the Presidents Cup next week
		
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I agree with your statement, but have no idea what relevance it has 🤷‍♂️

Are you saying you agree or disagree that " that they've literally devalued every golf event"?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			I agree with your statement, but have no idea what relevance it has 🤷‍♂️

Are you saying you agree or disagree that " that they've literally devalued every golf event"?
		
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You asked where the players were 🤷‍♂️

Even without LIV the current event wouldn’t have had too many if any big players playing 

I don’t think they have “devalued” every event. The good thing about golf is the next superstar is around the corner -the next Scheffler will be here soon , players will replace the likes of Smith


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			This absolutely 

The only winners are Greg Norman, who's fluffed up ego is even more fluffed up now.. and the multi-millionaire players who are even richer with cash that to be honest, they don't really need.

For the average golf fanatic they are watching weakened fields in DP, PGA and LIV events.. *they can no longer watch the best in the world at a tournament, competing against the fellow best in the world... apart from maybe 4 events a year.*  It's just sad for the game, sad for the punter and sad for the tradition.

I hope GN is happy with both his bank account and the divisive split he's helped create in a sport that had centuries of history and will never be the same again.
		
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Think it's a bit more nuanced than that.
Last weeks DPWT event was the strongest field it’s had for many years.
Prior to this year how often could you actually "watch the best in the world at a tournament, competing against the fellow best in the world" , outside of the 4 majors?
I think there is a case for The Players Championship maybe, but not much else.


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## evemccc (Sep 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			However, a top class boxing match featuring Anthony Joshua, or Premier League matches featuring NUFC are credible sporting events, played in the same manner elite events were played before and Middle East link. They remain credible events, and any controversy ifms just a backstory.

LIV golf is not a credible golfing tour, played in the same vain as the elite events pre LIV. It is a group of random professional golfers asked to play in a string of random golf competitions. Just because it entertains some people, does not make it credible in terms of elite competitive sport. It has a long way to go to earn those stripes. So, main broadcasters are not likely to invest in an event that is unlikely to be supported by a significant number of golf fans, especially due to the controversial links it has.
		
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That all may be true about LIV’s credibility — but that isn’t true for Sky Sports - IMO they’re interested in making money….don’t forget they broadcasted Logan Paul, a YouTuber vs Floyd Mayweather, Mayweather vs McGregor — both circuses 

So that’s why I think Sky and others are invested in the PGA Tour and dislike LIV not out of moral principle or credibility, but because that’s were they have existing contracts


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			However, a top class boxing match featuring Anthony Joshua, or Premier League matches featuring NUFC are credible sporting events, played in the same manner elite events were played before and Middle East link. They remain credible events, and any controversy ifms just a backstory.

LIV golf is not a credible golfing tour, played in the same vain as the elite events pre LIV. It is a group of random professional golfers asked to play in a string of random golf competitions. Just because it entertains some people, does not make it credible in terms of elite competitive sport. It has a long way to go to earn those stripes. So, main broadcasters are not likely to invest in an event that is unlikely to be supported by a significant number of golf fans, especially due to the controversial links it has.
		
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Kinda follow the thinking, if being provocative might question things like handicapped horse racing and F1 😉😉
Back to golf though, what are your thoughts in how this aligns with 'elite competitive sport'?

"Being in the top 20 of PIP will also get those players into the biggest events of the season. Regardless of how they’re playing."
Sounds a bit closer to 'entertainment' to me ...


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## Harry Putter (Sep 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Prior to this year how often could you actually "watch the best in the world at a tournament, competing against the fellow best in the world" , outside of the 4 majors?
I think there is a case for The Players Championship maybe, but not much else.
		
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How about last years Dubai Desert Classic for starters?

Won by Casey and in the top 6 were Brandon Stone, Laurie Canter and Sergio (all LIV), as well a couple of non-LIV players.

Do you want more examples of leaderboards that won't be the same?  I will say again.. the average punter cannot now watch the best against the best, and the game is poorer for it.


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## Crow (Sep 15, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			How about last years Dubai Desert Classic for starters?

Won by Casey and in the top 6 were Brandon Stone, Laurie Canter and Sergio (all LIV), as well a couple of non-LIV players.

Do you want more examples of leaderboards that won't be the same?  I will say again.. the average punter cannot now watch the best against the best, and the game is poorer for it.
		
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But the average punter who refuses to pay Sky et al can now watch the best (according to your analysis above  ).


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			How about last years Dubai Desert Classic for starters?

Won by Casey and in the top 6 were Brandon Stone, Laurie Canter and Sergio (all LIV), as well a couple of non-LIV players.

Do you want more examples of leaderboards that won't be the same?  I will say again.. the average punter cannot now watch the best against the best, and the game is poorer for it.
		
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Agree about leaderboards not being the same.  We've just interpreted "best v best" differently 👍
Have probably read too many times on the internet that the players you mention were 'rubbish has beens' also 😉😉😁


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## Harry Putter (Sep 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Agree about leaderboards not being the same.  We've just interpreted "best v best" differently 👍
Have probably read too many times on the internet that the players you mention were 'rubbish has beens' also 😉😉😁
		
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So what's your view..? Forget the internet ramblings. Are players who finished top 10 in a major European Tour event last year some of the best or not?  What do you personally think?


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			So what's your view..? Forget the internet ramblings. Are players who finished top 10 in a major European Tour event last year some of the best or not?  What do you personally think?
		
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🙂 It's been a good event, no doubt. 
Depending on how you look at it, perhaps a quarter strength verses the 3 strong majors.
A few weeks later the Arnold Palmer on the PGAT had a significantly stronger field though  - just the way it has gone with the two tours. 
Of course at the moment with the court case the DPWT events are not banning players, just making them not welcome. If things had taken a different course, some high ranked US players could have been regulars on the DPWT  - but just speculation.
"Best" is subjective. A regular poster believes only the top 30 really matter, I've suggested it goes a bit deeper than that - it's just opinions though.
The point I was trying to make was that the very top players rarely did play against each other in significant numbers that often.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Now that LIV have a fairly decent cohort of players, I think theres a alot of resentment that they've literally devalued every golf event by taking away some big names. Saudi Arabia have diluted professional golf and* everyone loses out apart from them and Greg Norman. *It's going to risk tarnishing the majors and the Ryder Cup, a century of history and tradition down the drain.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd agree with that. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that the PGA tour hasn't been weakened by losing players like DJ, BDC and Smith, but I'm not sure that it's been a great victory for Norman, Saudi and LIV. I'm sure that with the hundreds of millions that they've thrown at it so far they would've hoped for better results and more big names in their field. In my book the only winners are the players that have added a couple of extra zeroes to their bank balances. I don't think the PGA tour or LIV can claim any kind of victory and the only result for the golf fan is that they will be watching poorer competition in both events.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			Kinda follow the thinking, if being provocative might question things like handicapped horse racing and F1 😉😉
Back to golf though, what are your thoughts in how this aligns with 'elite competitive sport'?

"Being in the top 20 of PIP will also get those players into the biggest events of the season. Regardless of how they’re playing."
Sounds a bit closer to 'entertainment' to me ...
		
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Every player has the opportunity to qualify for the biggest events, if they are good enough. Sure, we know that there are other ways to qualify. There are plenty of players who play at the Masters who are not good enough to win (several past winners), but all the best players are still able to compete. 

There are 2 obstacles that don't make this the case for LIV. Firstly, players have to really be invited first, and even if they are willing to play, it may only happen if they can negotiate a massive contract. Secondly, it is clear that most of the top players in the world simply do not recognise LIV as a legitimate tour, by not agreeing to play despite the money on offer. A tour will never become great if the greatest players don't want to play on it. 

LIV has not managed to get over those hurdles yet. And, in all honesty, the Saudi Arabian link is controversial to.some, but I'd agree it is less controversial to broadcasters. The biggest controversy for them is that I'd is quite clear the biggest golf tour in the world is 100% against LIV. Certainly, that puts Sky in a position to not get anywhere close to.supporting LIV. However, any broadcaster interested in showing golf will think twice, as they'd not earn brownie points with the PGA (if they wanted to show their events in future). Furthermore, although some like LIV, it is clear many fans also hate LIV. So, broadcasting it massively splits opinion, which makes it controversial. If most of the best players in the world had no issue with it, and there is a guaranteed route for every player to.play on LIV if good enough, then things would start to change


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## Oddsocks (Sep 16, 2022)

If it makes you guys feel better, SA have just invested into media rights and sponsorship of a much lower grade sport, motocross.  This series has been struggling for years and the SA’s have just purchased broadcasting rights (for what is one of the smallest resale markets globally for that sport) as well as investing at least 1 SA sponsor into the series to inject privateer prize money.

It’s something this sport has needed for decades and I see very little to gain for SA/SA sponsors, maybe they really are pushing for change!

Does this make me an SA-bot , liv-bot or pga-antibot as it’s all getting confusing?


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## rksquire (Sep 16, 2022)

I don't really get the defense in favour of Sky re: Boxing & NUFC and promotion of SA backed events / clubs..... if you're outraged about where the funding is coming from, the 'legitimacy' or 'credibility' of the event is irrelevant - you can't have selective outrage.  If the 'credibility' means you ignore the Human Rights element for Boxing or NUFC, it is unfair to then use the Human Rights element to decry the credibility of LIV; the credibility of one versus the other has be questioned on the same terms (the standard of golf, the courses, the quality of field, tournament duration, format, etc,) and it's fine to come to the conclusion it's not credible; it's also fine to conclude it's disrupted the status quo of what really was a PGAT stranglehold and this may be upsetting / overdue / unnecessary / divisive (or any other opinion).


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 16, 2022)

Interesting to hear Bryson say Liv talks are going well with Peter Dawson from the world ranking points organisation.

Also that Liv are being totally flexible with changing their model to fit the criteria.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Interesting to hear Bryson say Liv talks are going well with Peter Dawson from the world ranking points organisation.

Also that Liv are being totally flexible with changing their model to fit the criteria.







Click to expand...

LIV are in a position to be incredibly flexible, they are a start up company and money is not a problem. That is the problem for the PGA. This start up company can be extremely flexible to aim for more and more success. Success that is not going to benefit the PGA Tour.

The proposed Football Super League, if it had actually gone ahead, would have been in a position to be extremely flexible, at the expense of all other football as we know it (hence the absolute outrage). However, the reason for them doing it was to earn money (not that they had the money already to do what they wanted), and the fact football is huge and there was so much negativity around it, that it never looked like it would achieve what it wanted. 

However, let us say they (football Super League) already had all the money they wanted, and they offered clubs billions and billions to take part. Think of a club as an individual golfer. Some clubs may decline the offer, as they are already hugely successful, and likely to be successful for many years, and they don't need the negativity about joining the Super League. Other clubs are desperate for the money, they see a lottery win, and decide to take it. Likely clubs that were at a high level, but now struggling financially. Maybe the odd big club, that are still well off, decide to take the money. And, to make up the numbers, some "less good" clubs are offered a deal they can't refuse.

It is clear to football fans that this can't be good for football, and it is purely about the money. No promotion of relegation, just a bunch of clubs randomly put together to play in another football competition.

It is very similar to LIV. I can understand why many of the players signed up to it, but it doesn't mean it is good for golf and good for the sport. The fact that the benefit some take from it is that it is free doesn't seem to be a great benefit to golf. Any sport wants to attract fans willing to invest in it, not people who want a free lunch. That doesn't make it sustainable


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## Imurg (Sep 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Also that Liv are being totally flexible with changing their model to fit the criteria
		
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So if the changes required are ..
Drop the shotgun start
Play 72 holes
With a Cut
Ability to qualify to play

Doesn't that make it the same as the PGAT..?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Interesting to hear Bryson say Liv talks are going well with Peter Dawson from the world ranking points organisation.

Also that Liv are being totally flexible with changing their model to fit the criteria.







Click to expand...

A few things from that

How does BDC know what’s happening unless GN is telling them - and that’s the same GN who said that wouldn’t lose points or any of the other promises he made that were false 

And if they change to get points it still needs to be a year and the changes will make it no different to the PGAT or other tours apart from the money


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So if the changes required are ..
Drop the shotgun start
Play 72 holes
With a Cut
Ability to qualify to play

Doesn't that make it the same as the PGAT..?
		
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You forgot the main things that would separate the two - it's louder. And they can wear shorts. The keys to #GrowTheGame


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## evemccc (Sep 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure I'd agree with that. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that the PGA tour hasn't been weakened by losing players like DJ, BDC and Smith, but I'm not sure that it's been a great victory for Norman, Saudi and LIV. I'm sure that with the hundreds of millions that they've thrown at it so far they would've hoped for better results and more big names in their field. In my book the only winners are the players that have added a couple of extra zeroes to their bank balances. I don't think the PGA tour or LIV can claim any kind of victory and the only result for the golf fan is that they will be watching poorer competition in both events.
		
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1) Very few golf fans watch every PGA Tour event - most watch the weekends of the Majors, Players and Ryder cup / Wentworth at most

2) I feel confident the numbers of those hard-core golf on TV fans who are ‘missing out’ by having fields weakened are easily, overwhelmingly outweighed by those (ie EVERYONE) now able to watch golf, advert interruption free, for free, on YouTube with LIV


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1) Very few golf fans watch every PGA Tour event - most watch the weekends of the Majors, Players and Ryder cup / Wentworth at most

2) I feel confident the numbers of those hard-core golf on TV fans who are ‘missing out’ by having fields weakened are easily, overwhelmingly outweighed by those (ie EVERYONE) now able to watch golf, advert interruption free, for free, on YouTube with LIV
		
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With LIV seemingly now chasing Telly deals the free and advert free is surely going to change


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So if the changes required are ..
Drop the shotgun start
Play 72 holes
With a Cut
Ability to qualify to play

Doesn't that make it the same as the PGAT..?
		
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I am not sure that LIV would care too much. I actually think that the PGA Tour may have been their own worst enemy here. The end result is that LIV may have to change to become a Tour matching the PGA model but actually being a truely global tour with events all over the world. Should that happen, it could become over time a whole diferrent prospect that could seriously challenge the PGA Tour as the number one tour in golf. It certainly coul attract golfers from around the world who want to play at the highest level but also want to play in their home country or be able to pick a schedule that does not necessitate a move to the US. 

That would certainly make the global landscape interesting.


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## IanM (Sep 16, 2022)

I am leaving Golf Monthly.  Nuts to you all!!  I have been offered a mountain of cash to post elsewhere!! 





Ah, but I still want to post when I feel like it and play in "meets" when it suits me!    Whaddya mean you've deleted my profile?  See you in Court!! 

Yep, it's that daft.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 16, 2022)

People still picking holes in Liv after most of the previous picking has turned out false
BDC has been in meetings,his team would obviously have been made promises and commitments and he would have made his final decision off that.
He mentioned at the end of his interview it would take time,but also said Liv was only going to get bigger and better,and players were going to get very rich.


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## pokerjoke (Sep 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			I am leaving Golf Monthly.  Nuts to you all!!  I have been offered a mountain of cash to post elsewhere!!





Ah, but I still want to post when I feel like it and play in "meets" when it suits me!    Whaddya mean you've deleted my profile?  See you in Court!!

Yep, it's that daft.[/QUOT

Your past your best mate and getting too old,so no-one really cares 😀
		
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## pauljames87 (Sep 16, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			People still picking holes in Liv after most of the previous picking has turned out false
BDC has been in meetings,his team would obviously have been made promises and commitments and he would have made his final decision off that.
He mentioned at the end of his interview it would take time,but also said Liv was only going to get bigger and better,and players were going to get very rich.
		
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Exactly. People will like what they want and if they don't like it they can't be won over 

Friend of mine when talking about the field last night 

"If they don’t get ranking points and to play the majors it won’t last"

"Even if it lasts , and I’m not sure it’s still rubbish"

For one he has never watched it , so how can you completely judge?

Then the fact first it was it won't get off the ground 

Then it won't get a top 50 player 

Then oh they are all past it 

Then won't get a top 10 player 

Always a reason


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am not sure that LIV would care too much. I actually think that the PGA Tour may have been their own worst enemy here. The end result is that LIV may have to change to become a Tour matching the PGA model but actually being a truely global tour with events all over the world. Should that happen, it could become over time a whole diferrent prospect that could seriously challenge the PGA Tour as the number one tour in golf. It certainly coul attract golfers from around the world who want to play at the highest level but also want to play in their home country or be able to pick a schedule that does not necessitate a move to the US.

That would certainly make the global landscape interesting.
		
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There was a lot of talk about them being a global tour and yet next year most of their events appear to be in the same US market

Golf events have been played around the world for years , the big players have gone down to Australia to play the events but it just hasn’t grabbed - the tours have tried but unfortunately the two main golf markets are the US and Europe


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## Swango1980 (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am not sure that LIV would care too much. I actually think that the PGA Tour may have been their own worst enemy here. The end result is that LIV may have to change to become a Tour matching the PGA model but actually being a truely global tour with events all over the world. Should that happen, it could become over time a whole diferrent prospect that could seriously challenge the PGA Tour as the number one tour in golf. It certainly coul attract golfers from around the world who want to play at the highest level but also want to play in their home country or be able to pick a schedule that does not necessitate a move to the US.

That would certainly make the global landscape interesting.
		
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That will only happen once virtually all golfers buy into it, so that there is no reason why the best golfers in the world would not want to play in it. It would also require strong qualification criteria, so that there is confidence that the best golfers, including up and coming great golfers will be able to earn their spot on LIV. There are big obstacles to LIV in achieving this, but it is the outcome they need to seriously challenge the PGA Tour (if you are talking about being a "legitimate" tour that most golf fans and players will buy into).

They have burst on to the scene by the huge sums of money they have thrown at it, and thus they have produced something bigger than an alternative tour that could have been created that needed to be self sustaining from the start. However, that could be their long term downfall, as they have seriously upset many large golf fans and the current major players in golf, particularly the PGA Tour. So, it now seems like it will be very much harder for them to win over their support, as many will strongly oppose LIV for a long time (or forever) based on the scale of negativity they feel now.

A longer term strategy might have been to create one or 2 annual events and some obscure point within the season. Play these events at venues not familiar with golf at the moment, and maybe have one or 2 slight differences to how the tournament is played. Have huge prize money so that the best players are still keen to play, and state how those players can qualify. Whether it be the top 48 players in the world, or top 30 in world, plus Major Winners, plus top players in the other leading tours, etc. Promise to give a certain amount to charities, to try and promote the positives stories to counter the negative ones surrounding money. If it goes well, try and create an extra event per year, until it resembles more of a mini tour

I'm not sure the above would still ultimately work, but if they could have started of with simply one event that required qualification and positive stories related to donating money to charity, the PGA would find it harder to battle against. Obviously, as it grows, then the PGA Tour would find it negatively impacts them more, but with LIV already established then there would be little for the PGA to stop its growth. Legally anyway, they'd need to improve their product to compete.

But, LIV has tried to create a significant tour right from the start. 7 events is a lot, and rapidly growing next year and beyond. They've scared the PGA right from the start, and the PGA have been pushed into a very strong reaction. It would be naïve to think they would have been any more lenient, of course they will do their best to protect their product. Their reaction has persuaded many of the worlds best players to distance themselves from LIV. 

So, it feels almost impossible that LIV will now ever be able to overcome these hurdles. It can have all the money in the world, but if many golfing fans hate it and at least a generation of the worlds best golfers have no intention in playing in it, then it is hard to see how it will ever be taken seriously. Even if they were flexible enough to fully deal with the qualification and format issues, they have still alienated many of the worlds best golfers, so many would still likely stay away from LIV, unless LIV reaches a critical mass in attracting enough of the best golfers, for the few remaining ones to have little choice to follow (i.e. if the PGA Tour pretty much died)


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Every player has the opportunity to qualify for the biggest events, if they are good enough. Sure, we know that there are other ways to qualify. There are plenty of players who play at the Masters who are not good enough to win (several past winners), but all the best players are still able to compete.

There are 2 obstacles that don't make this the case for LIV. Firstly, players have to really be invited first, and even if they are willing to play, it may only happen if they can negotiate a massive contract. Secondly, it is clear that most of the top players in the world simply do not recognise LIV as a legitimate tour, by not agreeing to play despite the money on offer. A tour will never become great if the greatest players don't want to play on it.

LIV has not managed to get over those hurdles yet. And, in all honesty, the Saudi Arabian link is controversial to.some, but I'd agree it is less controversial to broadcasters. The biggest controversy for them is that I'd is quite clear the biggest golf tour in the world is 100% against LIV. Certainly, that puts Sky in a position to not get anywhere close to.supporting LIV. However, any broadcaster interested in showing golf will think twice, as they'd not earn brownie points with the PGA (if they wanted to show their events in future). Furthermore, although some like LIV, it is clear many fans also hate LIV. So, broadcasting it massively splits opinion, which makes it controversial. If most of the best players in the world had no issue with it, and there is a guaranteed route for every player to.play on LIV if good enough, then things would start to change
		
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Agree on the Masters. But I can follow the nostalgia/traditional argument for past winners.
But can the same apply to those with most twitter replies?
The Masters regularly posts highly in the favourite/best major polls - perhaps on entertainment?

I think it is fair to conclude you dodged the question!

Suspect Paige S is gutted this isn't going on in women's golf.

Always dangerous to conclude based on internet observations, but it has felt to me that it's the USA audience where they (some) have been clamouring for it to be on TV. Not really seeing it to same level elsewhere.
Hope it doesn't go Sky in the UK as I couldn't seeing them doing a decent job as it doesn't fit the Sky taking model IMO.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

No idea as not researched it much at all (really not that concerned as a whole, golf is golf, really do not care much for all the willy waving about who is the best, who has the best golfers, who was here first etc as they are all as bad as each other save for the sportswashing element) but could the LIV Tour fulfil the ruote to qualifying criteria by setting the requirement as finishing in the top 20 of the PGA Tour Rankings or the top 5 or 10 on the other tours. You have set a qualifying criteria but also immediately set the other tours up as feeder tours to LIV and ensured that you have the best performing golfers each year. Yes, some will decline but if you take those currently signed up and then double the number of slots the following year to incorporate the new qualifiers then you have a tour field. Only requirement, you play in events in your home courntry.

Seems simple.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			No idea as not researched it much at all (really not that concerned as a whole, golf is golf, really do not care much for all the willy waving about who is the best, who has the best golfers, who was here first etc as they are all as bad as each other save for the sportswashing element) but could the LIV Tour fulfil the ruote to qualifying criteria by setting the requirement as finishing in the top 20 of the PGA Tour Rankings or the top 5 or 10 on the other tours. You have set a qualifying criteria but also immediately set the other tours up as feeder tours to LIV and ensured that you have the best performing golfers each year. Yes, some will decline but if you take those currently signed up and then double the number of slots the following year to incorporate the new qualifiers then you have a tour field. Only requirement, you play in events in your home courntry.

Seems simple.
		
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I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players 

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division
		
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I thought the original proposal was the top 48 ranked players qualified, and they played them in the 'quieter' weeks so they remained on existing tours.
Do think was naive to think Jay & co would accept that mind!
Once hostilities began (all sides) then as you say working together seems a long way away now


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think any qualifying between the two has long since gone - LIV want to pick and choice who they want playing and each player picked will be done for strategic reasons to help market the tour - it’s not a “open to all” tour and also there is a huge imbalance between the money for the players

There is so many different ways that a combined tour could have been created and working with all the tours but the way they went about recruiting players and GN grudge was always going to create division
		
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Was not talking about a combined tour or any agreement, just simply and arbitrarily put in place qualfyng criteria based on your ranking on another tour. Not sure why it would need the approval of other tours to implement as qualification would mean leaving the tour and joining the LIV tour. Would provide a qualification criteria for world ranking points and immediately place all other tours as feeder tours for LIV. Was not looking at it as an amicable solution, was looking at it as a power play to cement them above everybody else and if a signficant percentage of the top golfers on each tour signed up each year, the other tours would wither, pretty much like the PGA did to the european tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			I thought the original proposal was the top 48 ranked players qualified, and they played them in the 'quieter' weeks so they remained on existing tours.
Do think was naive to think Jay & co would accept that mind!
Once hostilities began (all sides) then as you say working together seems a long way away now
		
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The tours could have created 5 events say - one on each continent, top 20 from each tour plays - money put up by all the tours and held during quieter weeks , could have been good


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Was not talking about a combined tour or any agreement, just simply and arbitrarily put in place qualfyng criteria based on your ranking on another tour. Not sure why it would need the approval of other tours to implement as qualification would mean leaving the tour and joining the LIV tour. Would provide a qualification criteria for world ranking points and immediately place all other tours as feeder tours for LIV. Was not looking at it as an amicable solution, was looking at it as a power play to cement them above everybody else and if a signficant percentage of the top golfers on each tour signed up each year, the other tours would wither, pretty much like the PGA did to the european tour.
		
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That’s what LIV have already tried to do though - go for the best players in the world and say you can come and play 

Using another tours “rankings” would satisfy any qualifying requirements unless there is a relationship between the two tours 

LIV need to create an open Qualfying criteria within their tour that anyone can enter and gain a tour card from that Qualfying


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## pokerjoke (Sep 16, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That will only happen once virtually all golfers buy into it, so that there is no reason why the best golfers in the world would not want to play in it. It would also require strong qualification criteria, so that there is confidence that the best golfers, including up and coming great golfers will be able to earn their spot on LIV. There are big obstacles to LIV in achieving this, but it is the outcome they need to seriously challenge the PGA Tour (if you are talking about being a "legitimate" tour that most golf fans and players will buy into).

They have burst on to the scene by the huge sums of money they have thrown at it, and thus they have produced something bigger than an alternative tour that could have been created that needed to be self sustaining from the start. However, that could be their long term downfall, as they have seriously upset many large golf fans and the current major players in golf, particularly the PGA Tour. So, it now seems like it will be very much harder for them to win over their support, as many will strongly oppose LIV for a long time (or forever) based on the scale of negativity they feel now.

A longer term strategy might have been to create one or 2 annual events and some obscure point within the season. Play these events at venues not familiar with golf at the moment, and maybe have one or 2 slight differences to how the tournament is played. Have huge prize money so that the best players are still keen to play, and state how those players can qualify. Whether it be the top 48 players in the world, or top 30 in world, plus Major Winners, plus top players in the other leading tours, etc. Promise to give a certain amount to charities, to try and promote the positives stories to counter the negative ones surrounding money. If it goes well, try and create an extra event per year, until it resembles more of a mini tour

I'm not sure the above would still ultimately work, but if they could have started of with simply one event that required qualification and positive stories related to donating money to charity, the PGA would find it harder to battle against. Obviously, as it grows, then the PGA Tour would find it negatively impacts them more, but with LIV already established then there would be little for the PGA to stop its growth. Legally anyway, they'd need to improve their product to compete.

But, LIV has tried to create a significant tour right from the start. 7 events is a lot, and rapidly growing next year and beyond. They've scared the PGA right from the start, and the PGA have been pushed into a very strong reaction. It would be naïve to think they would have been any more lenient, of course they will do their best to protect their product. Their reaction has persuaded many of the worlds best players to distance themselves from LIV.

So, it feels almost impossible that LIV will now ever be able to overcome these hurdles. It can have all the money in the world, but if many golfing fans hate it and at least a generation of the worlds best golfers have no intention in playing in it, then it is hard to see how it will ever be taken seriously. Even if they were flexible enough to fully deal with the qualification and format issues, they have still alienated many of the worlds best golfers, so many would still likely stay away from LIV, unless LIV reaches a critical mass in attracting enough of the best golfers, for the few remaining ones to have little choice to follow (i.e. if the PGA Tour pretty much died)
		
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Can u shorten your posts please.
I’m sure yours are worth reading but I can’t be bothered they are too looooooongggg


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s what LIV have already tried to do though - go for the best players in the world and say you can come and play

Using another tours “rankings” would satisfy any qualifying requirements unless there is a relationship between the two tours

LIV need to create an open Qualfying criteria within their tour that anyone can enter and gain a tour card from that Qualfying
		
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I am not sure that is correct. The issue is that LIV invite the best golfers but not that they guarantee a qualifying route. By setting in stone that invites to join the tour would be extended to all golfers in the top 20 rankings on the PGA tour and the 10 5 on the European and Asian Tours, there is a route to qualification, there is no need to have a relationship, just a set criteria for qualifying to join. As I said, just hypotesising here, not read the specifics but not sure why you cannot use someone elses rankings as a basis for qualifying for another tour. Anyone can still enter, they just need to qualify for the PGA tour and perform well and all that LIV would be doing would be creating a leval above the current tours.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 16, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Can u shorten your posts please.
I’m sure yours are worth reading but I can’t be bothered they are too looooooongggg
		
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It's a fair comment.

To summarise: LIV have burst on scene, but may have severely damaged any long term success by pissing off most of the key bodies in golf, players and fans. Had they started slower, maybe one event, and allowed qualification to it and also offered huge sums to charity, they may well have been able to achieve long term success much more easily.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am not sure that is correct. The issue is that LIV invite the best golfers but not that they guarantee a qualifying route. By setting in stone that invites to join the tour would be extended to all golfers in the top 20 rankings on the PGA tour and the 10 5 on the European and Asian Tours, there is a route to qualification, there is no need to have a relationship, just a set criteria for qualifying to join. As I said, just hypotesising here, not read the specifics but not sure why you cannot use someone elses rankings as a basis for qualifying for another tour. Anyone can still enter, they just need to qualify for the PGA tour and perform well and all that LIV would be doing would be creating a leval above the current tours.
		
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Create an “open qualifying school”

Plus local qualifying- ie Monday Qualfying for the event


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Create an “open qualifying school”

Plus local qualifying- ie Monday Qualfying for the event

View attachment 44355

Click to expand...

Pretty simple to arrange then. A short qualfying tournament pre-season for a few places and a chance for some local pros to qualify which helps promote the global nature of the tour. Seems pretty easy to achieve if they decide to go as a full global tour. Add to that invites to the top golfers on all the other tours. There really is nothing that difficult to achieve and what has gone from a small number of elite golfers taking a few weeks off the PGA to what could be a bigger, more global tour sucking up spomsors and TV money. PGA tour could have shot themselves in the foot. As I said, all hypothesis and conjecture but should be fun to watch it devlop.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Pretty simple to arrange then. A short qualfying tournament pre-season for a few places and a chance for some local pros to qualify which helps promote the global nature of the tour. Seems pretty easy to achieve if they decide to go as a full global tour. Add to that invites to the top golfers on all the other tours. There really is nothing that difficult to achieve and what has gone from a small number of elite golfers taking a few weeks off the PGA to what could be a bigger, more global tour sucking up spomsors and TV money. PGA tour could have shot themselves in the foot. As I said, all hypothesis and conjecture but should be fun to watch it devlop.
		
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If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them 

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into 

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted
		
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Just an issue with a starting something new, having to work out ways to deal with and circumvaigate the rigid establishment. As as I said, I think this may work out far worse for the PGA Tour. What was on the table originally was a novel, big money few events which woud have had little impact on them overall. Now they may be faced with a full on tour in direct competition and with nearly bottomless pockets. As I said, I have no skin in the game, no real care about the final standings when this is all over but it will be fun to watch.


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## PieMan (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it’s easy to achieve then you would have to question why they aren’t doing it - they don’t want to conform they want things to change to fit them

Maybe because they are paying a lot of golfers money to be there which doesn’t leave many spots open for players to qualify into

They don’t want those level of golfers - they want the best that can be bought plus players that can be marketed- for a perfect comparison just think of the European Super League that was attempted
		
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Yep they cannot grow the game or get bigger  because of how they've set themselves up with fields limited to 48 and the shotgun start. All they can achieve is to get 'better' and by that it's 'buying' those currently in the top 35 or so in the OWGR and therefore the 'best' players.

Although that won't even be the case because Tiger is still by some distance the biggest draw in golf, but is nowhere near being the best.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Yep they cannot grow the game or get bigger  because of how they've set themselves up with fields limited to 48 and the shotgun start. All they can achieve is to get 'better' and by that it's 'buying' those currently in the top 35 or so in the OWGR and therefore the 'best' players.

Although that won't even be the case because Tiger is still by some distance the biggest draw in golf, but is nowhere near being the best.
		
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Would be interested to see how much of the orignal plan of 48 golfers, 54 holes etc was put in place to co-exist with the existing tours and how that changes if they are pushed into adopting a more traditional tour struture to try and compete a surpass the existing tours.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Would be interested to see how much of the orignal plan of 48 golfers, 54 holes etc was put in place to co-exist with the existing tours and how that changes if they are pushed into adopting a more traditional tour struture to try and compete a surpass the existing tours.
		
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The whole 48 players was about getting the best and then shotgun start to give it the short format to try and attract the younger generation etc and grow the game 

If they change that to go more traditional then they are no different apart from having big purses - it goes against everything they have said , it’s all been built upon the idea of being different 

And if they bring in more and more players then what happens to the team aspect they are trying to push ?

If it ends up being the same as other tours then what is the point of players moving beyond getting more money


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The whole 48 players was about getting the best and then shotgun start to give it the short format to try and attract the younger generation etc and grow the game

If they change that to go more traditional then they are no different apart from having big purses - it goes against everything they have said , it’s all been built upon the idea of being different

And if they bring in more and more players then what happens to the team aspect they are trying to push ?

If it ends up being the same as other tours then what is the point of players moving beyond getting more money
		
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Same reason players move to the PGA Tour, exactly that, more money and as may happen if a tipping point is reached, better fields and the chance to play in a number of different countries. Tryiing something different is one thing, trying something different wihen the establishment is does not like different is anotehr and then you have to blend in to make change, like joining a club with a dress code with the intention fo complying until you can get it voted of. As I said, if it stays as it is or becomes a different tour, it really makes litlte difference to me, it is like arguing whether you prefer the WBO or WBC boxing belts, same people, same sport, neither organisation really ideal so happy just to sit back and watch the fireworks.


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## evemccc (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*If it ends up being the same as other tours then what is the point of players moving beyond getting more money*

Click to expand...

“What was it that first attracted you to Millionaire Paul Daniels?”


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...

Using another tours “rankings” would satisfy any qualifying requirements unless there is a relationship between the two tours

LIV need to create an open Qualfying criteria within their tour that anyone can enter and gain a tour card from that Qualfying
		
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Know it was a bit ago (so much going on), and likely contains an amount of "bluster", believe this is outlined as the attempt to tick the qualifying box in future....

https://www.si.com/golf/.amp/news/liv-golfs-future-plans-include-relegation-qualifying-tournament


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 16, 2022)

I'm not sure how qualifying for LIV would actually work with the model they've created. If someone qualifies would they then have to negotiate their contract? For example Mickelson getting paid £XX million, if Rory qualified could he then say I want £XX million x 2? What if LIV said "No, you're only going to get half of what Mickelson gets and Rory turns it down? Is it a true qualifying competition if there are conditions such as appearance fees to be negotiated? The guaranteed income aspect seems incompatible with having open qualifying for the tour, unless they change their business model to put more emphasis on prize money for finishing position rather than for turning up.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure how qualifying for LIV would actually work with the model they've created. If someone qualifies would they then have to negotiate their contract? For example Mickelson getting paid £XX million, if Rory qualified could he then say I want £XX million x 2? What if LIV said "No, you're only going to get half of what Mickelson gets and Rory turns it down? Is it a true qualifying competition if there are conditions such as appearance fees to be negotiated? The guaranteed income aspect seems incompatible with having open qualifying for the tour, unless they change their business model to put more emphasis on prize money for finishing position rather than for turning up.
		
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Acknowledge none of us likely really know, but I viewed the "signing payments" as a way of de-risking the players from likely fall outs - bans, sponsors dropping, etc., taking the gamble, and gaining enough commitment to move the thing off the ground in the first place.
Didn't really expect them to continue with them longer term.
Think many would say there is already an (obscene?) emphasis on prize money for finishing positions!

INDIVIDUAL
Win: $4,000,000
2: $2,125,000
3: $1,500,000
4: $1,050,000
5: $975,000


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## larmen (Sep 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure how qualifying for LIV would actually work with the model they've created. If someone qualifies would they then have to negotiate their contract? For example Mickelson getting paid £XX million, if Rory qualified could he then say I want £XX million x 2? What if LIV said "No, you're only going to get half of what Mickelson gets and Rory turns it down? Is it a true qualifying competition if there are conditions such as appearance fees to be negotiated? The guaranteed income aspect seems incompatible with having open qualifying for the tour, unless they change their business model to put more emphasis on prize money for finishing position rather than for turning up.
		
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There was a pro who share don twitter how he 'applied' for liv, and they came back telling him to have some success on another tour and if he proves himself they might contact him.
Not sure if it was real or not as I didn't recognise the name at all.


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## Backsticks (Sep 16, 2022)

I think Saudi seriously harmed any reputation for being credible top flight golf by their purchase of Mickelson. Paying the big oil bucks, and locking in a player in the field who in nobody's reckoning could be considered a top golfer anymore, and one fading fast, just showed that is was golf as exhibition, or legends revisited, rather than real golf. It is probably their biggest misjudgement and betrayed the celebs rather than top golfers approach.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think Saudi seriously harmed any reputation for being credible top flight golf by their purchase of Mickelson. Paying the big oil bucks, and locking in a player in the field who in nobody's reckoning could be considered a top golfer anymore, and one fading fast, just showed that is was golf as exhibition, or legends revisited, rather than real golf. It is probably their biggest misjudgement and betrayed the celebs rather than top golfers approach.
		
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Agree on likely form and being eligible for champions tour. In the USA though he is/was very popular ..

https://morningconsult.com/2021/09/23/pga-tour-golfers-popularity-poll/

Suspect they'll be trying to ease him into a non playing captain role in the next couple of years 😄

Imagine the likes of Chacarra & Puig may influence if it disappears or hangs around for more than a few years

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/news/liv-golf-courted-top-amateur-david-puig/


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 16, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Sep 16, 2022)

Showing the OWGR ranking of the players on the graphics today. Is that new, can’t say I’ve seen it before?


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Showing the OWGR ranking of the players on the graphics today. Is that new, can’t say I’ve seen it before?
		
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Nah, have been doing it from the start. Thought it was an odd decision TBH.
Although maybe it gives the option to remove them with a flounce later 😁


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			Nah, have been doing it from the start. Thought it was an odd decision TBH.
*Although maybe it gives the option to remove them with a flounce later* 😁
		
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If LIV don't start getting OWGR points and the players start falling down the rankings I can't see them keeping the rankings visible for very long. Would be quite embarrassing if their top ranked players were 670th and 850th in the rankings. Having said that, they might keep it just to highlight how flawed the OWGR rankings are if Smith, BDC and Johnson are outside the top 500.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			If LIV don't start getting OWGR points and the players start falling down the rankings I can't see them keeping the rankings visible for very long. Would be quite embarrassing if their top ranked players were 670th and 850th in the rankings. Having said that, they might keep it just to highlight how flawed the OWGR rankings are if Smith, BDC and Johnson are outside the top 500.
		
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Yep agree. It's interesting the different approaches, you'll likely be aware of the players popping up on the DPWT and some extent Asian tour in a quest for points. Then others just not at all so far.

So far the big drop hasn't really happened, think in part due to the divisor which is limited between 40 & 52. Although not picking up points,  the divisor was reducing. The other is the owgr changing the calcs in August, so some recent  'big events' like the FedEx weren't offering as many points as 2 years ago.
But some players are dropping counting events below 40 now so the fall may speed up ..
Johnson    35
Koepka       37
DeChambeau   33
Oosthuziun   34
Casey           36

At the other end there are new pros who just won't play in counting events so their rankings won't improve.

I'm pretty surprised no-one has tried to knock up some alternative rankings yet based on existing formulas as a discussion point.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2022)

#BreakingNews

Mickelson broke par !
😉😉😄😁😅


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## Backsticks (Sep 16, 2022)

Keep up the progress, and he could get to Champions tour standard maybe, but the way Harrington is playing, Phil would still find it tough going there.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 17, 2022)

Not sure why some people want to portray Mickelsons career as failing, he's still a quality golfer - 2 under yesterday on a course that is clearly set up to be difficult - these guys aren't out there having a cakewalk.
His primary roll within LIV though, will be to act as a statesman/figurehead for the series. Pretty sure once the talent pool exetends then he'll take on the roll of managing a team, and dealing with operational side of building the brand.

He's correct here too, as much as the noise coming from the some of PGA boys (Rory) is unwavering, you cannot deny that the PGA Tour will never have all the best players in  the world on their tour.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570908516810096640


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## IainP (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Keep up the progress, and he could get to Champions tour standard maybe, but the way Harrington is playing, Phil would still find it tough going there.
		
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Can see Harrington dominating on there for a while


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

If Liv get OWGR points so players can go for the money and earn their place in the majors the floodgates will truely open and the PGAT knows it..

Liv can easily go to 72 holes with a 48 player cut and shotgun at the weekend to accomadate more players..

I see the above scenario resulting in talks starting to see the tours coexist which will be best for the game of golf overall rather than where we are now.


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

One doesnt need OWGR points to get into a major. The majors control who gets into their major. PGAT has no jurisdiction over the majors.


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

Phil has won 3 tournaments in the last 10 years. One round of -2 means absolutely nothing in terms of his ranking as a golfer.

A fantastic golfer. One of the most talented ever. He shot himself in the foot several times in majors, and hit peak Tiger, and overall for me ranks more like a 9 or 10 major winner. He is an all time great. His win at the USPGA was amazing and so well deserved. As was getting to 6 majors.

But for all that, he is well spent as a top competitive force now. He wouldnt be in the best 200 golfers on the world now.
If his Saudi role is as a figurehead, then fine, but that enforces LiV as showbiz celebrity golf, not real golf. Thats why his involvement has harmed LIVs credibility not helped their case as a real tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Phil has won 3 tournaments in the last 10 years. One round of -2 means absolutely nothing in terms of his ranking as a golfer.

A fantastic golfer. One of the most talented ever. He shot himself in the foot several times in majors, and hit peak Tiger, and overall for me ranks more like a 9 or 10 major winner. He is an all time great. His win at the USPGA was amazing and so well deserved. As was getting to 6 majors.

But for all that, he is well spent as a top competitive force now. He wouldnt be in the best 200 golfers on the world now.
If his Saudi role is as a figurehead, then fine, but that enforces LiV as *showbiz celebrity golf*, not real golf. Thats why his involvement has harmed LIVs credibility not helped their case as a real tour.
		
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All proffesional golf is show business, why do you think Rory and Tiger have come up with some mad plan to play indoor golf tournaments - it'll be like watching Bullseye with Jim Bowen and comparing that to the PDC.

The head bloke at the PGA flies his wife round the country on the PGA jet, does it get any more show businees than that?

Take Phil's golfing current golfing credibilities out of the argument, and he's been a great addition to the game.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not sure why some people want to portray Mickelsons career as failing, he's still a quality golfer - 2 under yesterday on a course that is clearly set up to be difficult - these guys aren't out there having a cakewalk.
His primary roll within LIV though, will be to act as a statesman/figurehead for the series. Pretty sure once the talent pool exetends then he'll take on the roll of managing a team, and dealing with operational side of building the brand.

He's correct here too, as much as the noise coming from the some of PGA boys (Rory) is unwavering, you cannot deny that the PGA Tour will never have all the best players in  the world on their tour.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570908516810096640

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Says the man who has spent the last 5 years trashing the PGAT and its members.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

[QUOTE="Backsticks, post: 2547855, member:
But for all that, he is well spent as a top competitive force now. He wouldnt be in the best 200 golfers on the world now.
If his Saudi role is as a figurehead, then fine, but that enforces LiV as showbiz celebrity golf, not real golf. Thats why his involvement has harmed LIVs credibility not helped their case as a real tour.[/QUOTE]

Old father time catches up with everyone eventually but I wouldn't completely right him off just yet as his distance off the tee is still right up there with the young guys.

Did you watch his round? He is holing nothing on the greens and think he will figure that out eventually, he is also having one really destructive hole, yesterday's - 2 contained a triple bogey.

Been written off as past his best before and won the USPGA.
Class is permanent form is temporary.

Also Liv is far from all about Phil M now with the top players they have in the field. 
DJs 63 yesterday round a 7700y course was super impressive. 
Cam Smith chasing him down in 2nd
Wolff, Stenson, Brooks, BDC, Louis O, Westy all lurking to move tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:









Click to expand...

See I like the fact I can just sit here with my PC screen and have it playing in the background

I almost dont want them to be picked up by TV because the youtube side is just decent (imo)

if they do get picked up id like to see it free to air still, and available via youtube aswell ..

shiels was saying in his latest podcast atm with the  cost of living a free to watch tour could favour a lot of people


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			See I like the fact I can just sit here with my PC screen and have it playing in the background

I almost dont want them to be picked up by TV because the youtube side is just decent (imo)

if they do get picked up id like to see it free to air still, and available via youtube aswell ..

shiels was saying in his latest podcast atm with the  cost of living a free to watch tour could favour a lot of people
		
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Rumours yesterday that Fox Sports were in discussions to show it. No idea what that would mean in terms of it being free to air.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			See I like the fact I can just sit here with my PC screen and have it playing in the background

I almost dont want them to be picked up by TV because the youtube side is just decent (imo)

if they do get picked up id like to see it free to air still, and available via youtube aswell ..

shiels was saying in his latest podcast atm with the  cost of living a free to watch tour could favour a lot of people
		
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Totally agree.. 
The accessibility of YouTube ties in with their growing the game mantra as anybody can watch it anywhere in the world.. 

Lahiri and Neumann mentioned it in their press conferences that more people are able to watch them play in India and Chile..


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Rumours yesterday that Fox Sports were in discussions to show it. No idea what that would mean in terms of it being free to air.
		
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As soon as the media rights are bought then it’s going to be subscribed and also adverts

They aren’t going to pay a fortune for it and then give it away for free 

Is Fox the pro Trump one ?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Totally agree..
The accessibility of YouTube ties in with their growing the game mantra as anybody can watch it anywhere in the world..

Lahiri and Neumann mentioned it in their press conferences that more people are able to watch them play in India and Chile..
		
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I don't think there's the space in the broadcast for a lot of adverts anyway, something that 72 hole conventional play does allow. There are occasional "promo pieces" that run in the LIV broadcast where you could see they might slot some ad space in, but the format would be too fragmented with adverts every few minutes.

Keeping it relatively accesible will be key to building it's popularity. I suspect by the time the 2023 series starts it'll be alot clearer, more players on board, more sponsors etc, who will have an interest in accessing the most appropriate markets.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As soon as the media rights are bought then it’s going to be subscribed and also adverts

They aren’t going to pay a fortune for it and then give it away for free

Is Fox the pro Trump one ?
		
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If they go with another paid for streaming service like Amazon or Netflix there is no need fo adverts.. 

A TV deal will announced before 2023 where it will all become clear..


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If they go with another paid for streaming service like Amazon or Netflix there is no need fo adverts..

A TV deal will announced before 2023 where it will all become clear..
		
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Don’t expect either to pay for it - don’t know what live sport Netflix does 



Mel Smooth said:



			I don't think there's the space in the broadcast for a lot of adverts anyway, something that 72 hole conventional play does allow. There are occasional "promo pieces" that run in the LIV broadcast where you could see they might slot some ad space in, but the format would be too fragmented with adverts every few minutes.

Keeping it relatively accesible will be key to building it's popularity. I suspect by the time the 2023 series starts it'll be alot clearer, more players on board, more sponsors etc, who will have an interest in accessing the most appropriate markets.
		
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if a media company spends money buying then they will need a return - adverts and subscriptions do that , same with sponsers etc - they will need to be visible


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don’t expect either to pay for it - don’t know what live sport Netflix does
QUOTE]

Yeah agree Amazon seems most likely streaming wise as they are looking for sport with already doing premier league and atp tennis
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Seems Apple TV turned it down due to how toxic it all is - think Amazon will think along the same lines - hence why Fox involved , not sure how it will broadcast in uk - maybe Dazn or You Tube premier , but people will have to pay for it next year Imo


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 17, 2022)

One for the rules gurus. 

Is this PGA Bot trying to drop DJ in the brown, or does he have a point? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570884978904530945


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## pauljames87 (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seems Apple TV turned it down due to how toxic it all is - think Amazon will think along the same lines - hence why Fox involved , not sure how it will broadcast in uk - maybe Dazn or You Tube premier , but people will have to pay for it next year Imo
		
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jezz if people think LIV is a joke then apple TV turning them down isnt such a big deal.. its probably the worst streaming service available with limited content and not many viewers 

Liv would be better off sticking it out for free than using that..


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## Kaz (Sep 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			One for the rules gurus.

Is this PGA Bot trying to drop DJ in the brown, or does he have a point?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570884978904530945

Click to expand...

Not a rules guru but it's hard to see any problem with that


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## Beezerk (Sep 17, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Not a rules guru but it's hard to see any problem with that
		
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Ditto, it’s not he’s pushing his club down behind the ball like someone else did recently, he’s just resting it naturally.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Sep 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			One for the rules gurus.

Is this PGA Bot trying to drop DJ in the brown, or does he have a point?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570884978904530945

Click to expand...

Can’t see any problem with that - had to rewatch it to check I hadn’t missed something?!


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			One for the rules gurus. 

Is this PGA Bot trying to drop DJ in the brown, or does he have a point? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570884978904530945

Click to expand...

Says the LIV Bot!😜😜
Guessing he's referring to the flicking away of debris which would be a problem if it effected his CATs,  but looks ok to me.


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## Skipper sy5 (Sep 17, 2022)

Does anyone know or care whats happening in LIV golf the players seem to have descended into obscurity which for sportsmen must be dissapointing and if tyey are allowed to play najors tgat would be an absolute disgrace i wouldnt play with them we may not be able to stop them but give them the early morning starts or the late starts


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

Skipper sy5 said:



			Does anyone know or care whats happening in LIV golf the players seem to have descended into obscurity which for sportsmen must be dissapointing and if tyey are allowed to play najors tgat would be an absolute disgrace i wouldnt play with them we may not be able to stop them but give them the early morning starts or the late starts
		
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Yes the 1st 2 events were not that great.

The Bedminster event was good, the next Boston event was very good, the current Chicago event is shaping up nicely with all the big names near the top.


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## Oddsocks (Sep 17, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			If it makes you guys feel better, SA have just invested into media rights and sponsorship of a much lower grade sport, motocross.  This series has been struggling for years and the SA’s have just purchased broadcasting rights (for what is one of the smallest resale markets globally for that sport) as well as investing at least 1 SA sponsor into the series to inject privateer prize money.

It’s something this sport has needed for decades and I see very little to gain for SA/SA sponsors, maybe they really are pushing for change!

Does this make me an SA-bot , liv-bot or pga-antibot as it’s all getting confusing?
		
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And now the plot thickens with another rival series to take on the main series in the states, 

Anything look familiar?

* Saudi funded via PIF

* Hires established famous AUSTRALIAN to head up the business.

* Originally intended as a non rival series off season and subsequently 180* to a full rival season for 23/24.

* Huge purse (25x standard event) - normal winner gets £40k, new series winner gets £250k

*Huge one off appearance money. (Some rumoured £150k per round)

* high profile riders having sponsors withdrawn as it wants to support its organising bodies.

* bully tactics to teams that don’t join.

* and  the crunch point….. key top level riders get to own part of the venture if they support from the off.

Somehow the organising bodies are funding increased purses for existing events (also sounds familiar)

Looks like the SA’s and PIF are intending to rock high profile and low profile sports…. I’ve pretty much 180* my views on liv.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)




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## TheBigDraw (Sep 17, 2022)

An excellent unbiased balanced well researched article on Liv Golf's challenges to get OWGR points by The Washington Post. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/17/golf-rankings-liv-owgr/


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

OWGR are taking a hit in credibility too, and so its in their interest to sort it. The majors will find their own way around it if the rankings dont. But the rankings will be rendered meaningless if they dont adapt too. Smith slipping to 100 ot whatever in a years time would just make them look stupid.

They have a little time to consider how to handle it for three reasons : we are in the quiet season ; the key is the top 20 or 30, and only DJ and Smith are unarguably of that ranking; and its still early, and the top defectors havent slipped too far.
But they need a solution by the new year.


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			OWGR are taking a hit in credibility too, and so its in their interest to sort it. The majors will find their own way around it if the rankings dont. But the rankings will be rendered meaningless if they dont. Smith slipping to 100 ot whatever in a years time would just make them look stupid.

They have a little time to consider how to handle it for three reasons : we are in the quiet season ; the key is the top 20 or 30, and only DJ and Smith are unarguably of that ranking; and its still early, and the top defectors havent slipped too far.
But they need a solution by the new year.
		
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How are the OWGR taking a hit in credibility? The link to the article TheBIgDraw posted was pretty clear - LIV does not meet a number of criteria; and the application process takes over a year.

Just because LIV have come along and bought some of the top players should not mean the LIV exhibitions automatically receive OWGR points.

The players that have taken the cash were fully aware of the situation when they went across. If they were told differently at the time then even more fool them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			OWGR are taking a hit in credibility too, and so its in their interest to sort it. The majors will find their own way around it if the rankings dont. But the rankings will be rendered meaningless if they dont adapt too. Smith slipping to 100 ot whatever in a years time would just make them look stupid.

They have a little time to consider how to handle it for three reasons : we are in the quiet season ; the key is the top 20 or 30, and only DJ and Smith are unarguably of that ranking; and its still early, and the top defectors havent slipped too far.
But they need a solution by the new year.
		
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The Rankings are mainly only used for entry into majors or WGCs

The LIV players are already banned from the WGCs so it’s the majors

The likes of Smith and Dj are exempt for entry into majors for years so at the end of the day it’s irrelevent what their ranking is they will still be at the majors , same with any of the better players in LiV

Majors and Rankings don’t need to and shouldn’t changed to suit 48 golfers - 

if LIV golfers want to be ranked like the others then have their events the same as the others to satisfy the criteria laid out for all the other tours


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

PieMan said:



			How are the OWGR taking a hit in credibility? The link to the article TheBIgDraw posted was pretty clear - LIV does not meet a number of criteria; and the application process takes over a year.

Just because LIV have come along and bought some of the top players should not mean the LIV exhibitions automatically receive OWGR points.

The players that have taken the cash were fully aware of the situation when they went across. If they were told differently at the time then even more fool them.
		
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Are you saying that in a year, if Smith is 100th in the owgr, there are 99 golfers in the world who are better than him. Or have the owgr become inaccurate at judging who are the worlds best golfers. So only the O part of its name remains relevant, and the WGR part, obsolete and irrelevant?


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Are you saying that in a year, if Smith is 100th in tge owgr next year, there are 99 golfers in the world who are better than him. Or have the owgr become inaccurate at judging who are the worlds best golfers. So only the O part of its name remains relevant, and the WGR part, obsolete and irrelevant?
		
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Smith and all the other LIV golfers knew the consequences of joining LIV and playing in their tournaments. 

They've put an obscene amount of money above world ranking points.

Smith won't care - he's got his exemptions into the majors so it doesn't matter where he plays.


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

So you agree the owgr will have made itself irrelevant then?


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## BrianM (Sep 17, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Smith and all the other LIV golfers knew the consequences of joining LIV and playing in their tournaments.

They've put an obscene amount of money above world ranking points.

Smith won't care - he's got his exemptions into the majors so it doesn't matter where he plays.
		
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At least give an answer that is relevant, we get you hate LIV, but at least try and think from a golf / business point of view?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So you agree the owgr will have made itself irrelevant then?
		
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Far from it - there are hundreds of golfers from eligible tours using the points to help them gain entry into various Tour events as well as majors etc


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## BrianM (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Far from it - there are hundreds of golfers from eligible tours using the points to help them gain entry into various Tour events as well as majors etc
		
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Regardless if Cameron Smith or Dustin Johnson are ok to play in Majors going on past major results, the world rankings can’t be right and proper, no one can surely think otherwise.
It needs to be sorted one way or another.


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

BrianM said:



			At least give an answer that is relevant, we get you hate LIV, but at least try and think from a golf / business point of view?
		
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My answer was relevant. LIV tournaments don't meet criteria for OWGR points; so their players can't accumulate them. So there you go - a golf point of view.

From a business point of view, I've got no idea whether throwing billions of dollars at something in such a short amount of time is good or not.


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So you agree the owgr will have made itself irrelevant then?
		
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Nope the players have made themselves irrelevant when it comes to the OWGR.


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

PieMan said:



			My answer was relevant. LIV tournaments don't meet criteria for OWGR points; so their players can't accumulate them. So there you go - a golf point of view.

From a business point of view, I've got no idea whether throwing billions of dollars at something in such a short amount of time is good or not.
		
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So the owgr would be correct to say that there are 99 men in  the world who are better golfers than Smith?


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So the owgr would be correct to say that there are 99 men in  the world who are better golfers than Smith?
		
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In terms of the criteria laid down then yes.


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

PieMan said:



			In terms of the criteria laid down then yes.
		
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But not in terms of the criteria of being best at playing golf?


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## Wilson (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But not in terms of the criteria of being best at playing golf?
		
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What’s the criteria for that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Regardless if Cameron Smith or Dustin Johnson are ok to play in Majors going on past major results, the world rankings can’t be right and proper, no one can surely think otherwise.
It needs to be sorted one way or another.
		
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The rankings work fine for all the other tours within the sport 

It ranks players based on playing within “eligible” events and against the criteria set out - if doesn’t give points for “ability” of the player 

Every single other Tour complies with the criteria set out to gain points - if LIV wants its events to have points then it will need to comply the same as others 

They won’t change to suit 48 golfers who left “eligible” tours for a tour that has no eligibility within the sport for a number of things - entry into majors , ranking points , entry into other tours. LIV is a purely standalone Tour - it’s has no connection or link to any Tour , it’s a single entity and a closed shop one at that

If LiV and it’s players want to gain ranking points then the process for them to gain them is simple enough but if they don’t then they will continue to be that standalone Tour and it’s players won’t be ranked against all their other peers


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But not in terms of the criteria of being best at playing golf?
		
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Nope. But that's the route Smith has chosen. But as I pointed out, he won't care - he's exempt now for all the majors for the best part of his career, which is where he'll be really judged.

If he wins another 2, 3, 4 or however many majors that's his legacy not how joining LIV affected his world ranking.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			But not in terms of the criteria of being best at playing golf?
		
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Players aren’t ranked by their ability - they are ranked by their performances against their peers


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every single other Tour complies with the criteria set out to gain points - if LIV wants its events to have points then it will need to comply the same as others
		
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They dont really comply.... they made the rules.

I could define the criteria for the OBWGR, better known as the Official Backsticks World Golf Rankings. It would be a great coup for the golf monthly forum to have the no. 1 OBWGR golfer as a poster!

PGAT golfers dont earn OBWGR points by playing that tour, but thats their own choice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They dont really comply.... they made the rules.

I could define the criteria for the OBWGR, better known as the Official Backsticks World Golf Rankings. It would be a great coup for the golf monthly forum to have the no. 1 OBWGR golfer as a poster!
		
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No they comply -hence why over the years some events have had to change to gain a level of ranking points

But here is the list of Tours that currently comply 

and as you can see they have had no issues with new tours joining in recent years 

If LIV wants to gain points then they just have their events under the ranking guidelines 

PGA Tour
European Tour
Asian Tour (from 2000; not a charter member of the Federation)
PGA Tour of Australasia
Japan Golf Tour
Sunshine Tour
Points are also awarded for high finishes on other tours:


Korn Ferry Tour, the official developmental tour for the PGA Tour
Challenge Tour, the official developmental tour for the European Tour
PGA Tour Canada, which became a full member of the Federation in 2009 under its former name of the Canadian Professional Golf Tour
Korean Tour, from 2011
PGA Tour Latinoamérica, from 2011 (Tour de las Américas in 2011 and early 2012)
Asian Development Tour, the official developmental tour for the Asian Tour, from 2013[6]
PGA Tour China, from 2014[7]
Alps Tour, from July 2015[8]
Nordic Golf League, from July 2015[8]
PGA EuroPro Tour, from July 2015[8]
Pro Golf Tour, from July 2015[8]
MENA Golf Tour, from April 2016[9]
Big Easy Tour, from 2018[10]
China Tour, from 2018[11]
All Thailand Golf Tour, from 2019[12]
Professional Golf Tour of India, from 2019[12]
Japan Challenge Tour


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Players aren’t ranked by their ability - they are ranked by their performances against their peers
		
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DJ must have gotten a fair few points tgen for beating his peers Nieman, Westwood, Garcia. How many did he get?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			DJ must have gotten a fair few points tgen for beating his peers Nieman, Westwood, Garcia. How many did he get?
		
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None because he didn’t beat them playing in an eligible tournament 🤷‍♂️

And don’t thin he would have got much beating one decent player and a couple closer to the Champions tour


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## Backsticks (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			None because he didn’t beat them playing in an eligible tournament 🤷‍♂️

And don’t thin he would have got much beating one decent player and a couple closer to the Champions tour
		
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Surely performing better than his peers means he should gain ranking points? He ranked abive them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Surely performing better than his peers means he should gain ranking points? He ranked abive them.
		
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Are you struggling to understand “eligible” tournament ?


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you struggling to understand “eligible” tournament ?
		
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You mean I got no Ranking Points for my position in todays medal?  See you in Court mate!


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## Dando (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Surely performing better than his peers means he should gain ranking points? He ranked abive them.
		
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🤦🏻‍♂️


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## BTatHome (Sep 18, 2022)

Incredible that we have so many people suddenly interested in the rankings criteria and the eligibility of events.

I wonder how Tigers tournament convinced everyone to turn a blind eye, didn't he have invite only, and no cut to the very small field too?

LIV Vs PGA on the forum continues to rumble on .... which apparently nobody interested in it but it still generates pages and pages on ridiculous argument


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

Another exciting finish to look forwards to today, DJ wobbling, Smiths short game is on another level - think he’ll be favourite today.

The team event has been dominated by the 4 Aces but they’ll need Reed or Perez to step up with a good round today if they want to maintain their winning streak - best 3 to count today.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)

I'm always perplexed that people seem to think that if DJ and Cam Smith for example fall outside the top 100 of the OWGR points then they are now not 2 of the best Golfers in the world. 

Of course they are and that's why the OWGR could look for the 1st time not accurately representing the list and lose some meaning. 

As each top player moves across and on recent history we have to believe they will continue to trickle across to Liv the OWGR becomes more obsolete.. 

That is a fact...


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I'm always perplexed that people seem to think that if DJ and Cam Smith for example fall outside the top 100 of the OWGR points then they are now not 2 of the best Golfers in the world.

Of course they are and that's why the OWGR could look for the 1st time not accurately representing the list and lose some meaning.

As each top player moves across and on recent history we have to believe they will continue to trickle across to Liv the OWGR becomes more obsolete..

That is a fact...
		
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All somebody needs to do, is set up a database that represents the LIV players compared to the rest of the world, it's not that hard to do - infact I wouldn't be surprised if the LIV team are working on it right now - possibly discreetly or by funding some data analysists. Make the information publically accesible so the public can see the CORRECT world golf rankings, and the OWGR is no longer reliable, and once it is no longer reliable, there's a valid argument that it shouldn't be used as qulaification to Major golf competitions.
Then you are left with the argument that players shouldn't be allowed to compete in them because they play in a different series - which is dangerous ground.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

The pgat has weathered the assault due to Saudis failure to sign enough top golfers to be relevant. 5 premium golfers lost is a wound, but the pgat remains healthy. 
But the owgr hasnt. Its a dead duck. Unless it adapts. It has lost 50 or something golfers, and it need to have relevance down into the hundreds of golfers to be relevant. And 50 from 300 is fatal.
The owgr mean nothing at all at the moment, though they have a few months to right the ship.


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## Crow (Sep 18, 2022)

A simple alternative to the OWGR, and one that should be relatable to golf fans the world over, would be to use a WHS type system at all professional tournaments.

That way the strength of the field wouldn't matter so much. A course rating could be generated to reflect the difficulty of the course from the back tees, using tournament green speeds, etc.

We'd then be able to see who was the best week in, week out, and just how good they were compared to us mere mortals. There might not be one player at the top of the ranking each week as ties would be more common but that's no big deal.

Why you could even combine men's and ladies "indexes" into the same table so the best golfer across the board could be identified.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

At the sharp end at the top of the pyramid though, its wins and placings that matter, not absolute scores. A 63 in the last round to win the Masters is not worth the same as a 63 in the first round of a Nordic golf league tournament.


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

On a tangent, I felt that Padraig was the best in the world for 13 months or so, 2007 / 2008, but his highest owgr was 3.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			On a tangent, I felt that Padraig was the best in the world for 13 months or so, 2007 / 2008, but his highest owgr was 3.
		
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Was he though? I thought he came into his second Open having played very poorly in the first half of the year?


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The pgat has weathered the assault due to Saudis failure to sign enough top golfers to be relevant. 5 premium golfers lost is a wound, but the pgat remains healthy.
But the owgr hasnt. Its a dead duck. Unless it adapts. It has lost 50 or something golfers, and it need to have relevance down into the hundreds of golfers to be relevant. And 50 from 300 is fatal.
The owgr mean nothing at all at the moment, though they have a few months to right the ship.
		
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DJ letting slip the Liv fields are going to be even stronger next year. 
Phil M boldly saying the PGA Tour has always had all the best players in the world and that will never be the case again. 
Liv saying they are now not interested in coexist talks

This is all suggesting they know something we don't know so that assault is still gathering momentum.. 

I honestly think some Presidents Cup players will switch in the next few weeks.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			DJ letting slip the Liv fields are going to be even stronger next year.
Phil M boldly saying the PGA Tour has always had all the best players in the world and that will never be the case again.
Liv saying they are now not interested in coexist talks

This is all suggesting they know something we don't know so that assault is still gathering momentum..

I honestly think some Presidents Cup players will switch in the next few weeks.
		
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I've read 6 OEM sponsors ready to come in as well, in addition to a few other snippits that looked like good business for LIV.


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

World rankings become meaningless when you split a sport.  (Eg darts and boxing)

That is also the difference between the Saudis sponsoring a Tour event and deliberately looking to take over a part of it.   

In the end, the sport suffers, but a few rich folk get even richer.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

Lowry on No Laying Up was saying he felt the group at the meeting in Delaware was secure to pgat. 
Guys in the 50-150 rankings count for nothing. 
Unless LIV signs a handful from McIlroy, Scheffler, Cantlay, Rahm, Thomas, etc, I can see why LiV would now not be interested in coexist talks, as they have nothing to bargain with.


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			A simple alternative to the OWGR, and one that should be relatable to golf fans the world over, would be to use a WHS type system at all professional tournaments.

That way the strength of the field wouldn't matter so much. A course rating could be generated to reflect the difficulty of the course from the back tees, using tournament green speeds, etc.

We'd then be able to see who was the best week in, week out, and just how good they were compared to us mere mortals. There might not be one player at the top of the ranking each week as ties would be more common but that's no big deal.

Why you could even combine men's and ladies "indexes" into the same table so the best golfer across the board could be identified.
		
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But would it work cross-border? 😉🤪?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			World rankings become meaningless when you split a sport.  (Eg darts and boxing)

That is also the difference between the Saudis sponsoring a Tour event and deliberately looking to take over a part of it. 

In the end, the sport suffers, but a few rich folk get even richer.
		
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How is the sport suffering, the greatest footballer of a generation has never played in the PL, but football hasn't suffered for it.

Why can't golf exist in different formats?


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			That's what happens when you split a sport.  (Eg darts and boxing)

That is also the difference between the Saudis sponsoring a Tour event and deliberately looking to take over a part of it.  

In the end, the sport suffers, but a few rich folk get even richer.
		
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Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.

I get that Saudi wants to improve its image, and promote itself. Even though the rest of the world is repulsed, if you believe your way of life of beheadings, a woman's testimony being only worth half a man's, that atheists are classed as terrorists, and that alcoholic beverages are criminal, thats fine. They are entitled to promote their case.
But dividing and harming the quality of elite golf is not the way to win friends, promote, and win support for that type of society. Removing Cam Smith from the PGAT is not a way to convince the average golf fan that beheadings are a good thing.


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.

I get that Saudi wants to improve its image, and promote itself. Even *though the rest of the world is repulsed*, if you believe your way of life of beheadings, a woman's testimony being only worth half a man's, that atheists are classed as terrorists, and that alcoholic beverages are criminal, thats fine. They are entitled to promote their case.
But dividing and harming the quality of elite golf is not the way to win friends, promote, and win support for that type of society. Removing Cam Smith from the PGAT is not a way to convince the average golf fan that beheadings are a good thing.
		
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I wouldn’t be so sure ‘everyone’ in the world shares your sensibilities and the norms of your culture / nation

The world allows and votes for the Japanese to continue whaling for ‘reasons’ - despite Western / European antipathy

The world hasn’t reacted at all in uproar against China despite Xinjiang and threats to Taiwan and repression of Hong Kong, because of ‘reasons’

The next 20-30 years of this century will see even less the (past) predominance of western sensibilities and norms, as some kind of moral or coercive authority

It may seem abhorrent, but it’s reality


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How is the sport suffering, the greatest footballer of a generation has never played in the PL, but football hasn't suffered for it.

Why can't golf exist in different formats?
		
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Silly analogy when talking about rankings.  The greatest footballers face off at World Cups and international club tournaments all the time.  

The boxing and darts example I gave was because years back, you knew who the world champion was.  Now, no one knows (or cares) as there umpteen versions of it.  Except for the odd unification bout.   To compound it, its all on pay per view so only the very keen bother to watch.

In golf, if some players only play in an invite only Tour, they are out of the  Mainstream.  

Golf already exists in several formats  (the various Tours)  

LIV players made a big deal about resigning.   Then realised it had consequences,  so they back tracked and sued!   

54 hole shotgun with made up pointless meaningless teams?  No ta.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I wouldn’t be so sure ‘everyone’ in the world shares your sensibilities and the norms of your culture / nation

The world allows and votes for the Japanese to continue whaling for ‘reasons’ - despite Western / European antipathy

The world hasn’t reacted at all in uproar against China despite Xinjiang and threats to Taiwan and repression of Hong Kong, because of ‘reasons’

The next 20-30 years of this century will see even less the (past) predominance of western sensibilities and norms, as some kind of moral or coercive authority

It may seem abhorrent, but it’s reality
		
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Sure. I think we are all open minded enough to both respect other points of view, and consider various practices on their merits. Beheadings may indeed be a great addition to other societies. But my point is that provoking a civil war in pro golf is not a good way to promote their case.


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

I think it is highly relevant to this thread - and would add to the quality of discussion - if the original PGL proposals were discussed in context of PGA Vs Liv 

I can’t remember what they were…I seem to remember Rory wasn’t against them..said there was some merit to it, and worthy of further discussion or investigation?
No Laying Up were between positive and quite sanguine about it, I think I can recall?

How does LIV differ, and would the LIV-haters and establishment golf media be equally against it?

Is it purely the Saudi connection which is the key problem?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Silly analogy when talking about rankings.  The greatest footballers face off at World Cups and international club tournaments all the time.

The boxing and darts example I gave was because years back, you knew who the world champion was.  Now, no one knows (or cares) as there umpteen versions of it.  Except for the odd unification bout.   To compound it, its all on pay per view so only the very keen bother to watch.

In golf, if some players only play in an invite only Tour, they are out of the  Mainstream.

Golf already exists in several formats  (the various Tours)

LIV players made a big deal about resigning.   Then realised it had consequences,  so they back tracked and sued! 

54 hole shotgun with made up pointless meaningless teams?  No ta.
		
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Why is it silly?

The greatest golfers will still face each other in majors - akin to the Football World Cup - except they are more frequent. You can compare it to boxing or darts if it suits your argument, I can compare it to many other sports where players compete in completely different series, then come together every so often to work out who is the best - and of course, that's subjective as it's down to their performance at that time.


You just don't like LIV, I get it, but plenty do and are enjoying the change to what is a traditionally boring (to many) format of 72 holes spread out over 4 long days.

I'll sit down tonight at about 6, watch LIV in it's entirety to the end, knowing I haven't missed one single shot worth seeing - brilliant.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Lowry on No Laying Up was saying he felt the group at the meeting in Delaware was secure to pgat. 
Guys in the 50-150 rankings count for nothing. 
Unless LIV signs a handful from McIlroy, Scheffler, Cantlay, Rahm, Thomas, etc, I can see why LiV would now not be interested in coexist talks, as they have nothing to bargain with.
		
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Liv could sign the entire top 50 and they slowly start to drop but then rise when majors get won by the Liv players 

Yet some would still find holes 

Bias is set and unbreakable


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## Crow (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			At the sharp end at the top of the pyramid though, its wins and placings that matter, not absolute scores. A 63 in the last round to win the Masters is not worth the same as a 63 in the first round of a Nordic golf league tournament.
		
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That's an element of a player's ability to compete at the highest level of pressure, not their skill level.
Yes, some players are better at the sharp end than others, but in terms of a ranking system to qualify for top end competition (majors etc), I think a WHS type of arrangement would work well. 

If you want to see who is the best competitor then look at their results, many times the argument has been made on here that being OWGR number 1 is worthless compared to winning a major so it's not as though people see it as a goal in itself.

I'm suggesting a simple means of rating players that crosses all tours.
And it would be nice to see just how good the professionals are compared to us.


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			A simple alternative to the OWGR, and one that should be relatable to golf fans the world over, would be to use a WHS type system at all professional tournaments.

That way the strength of the field wouldn't matter so much. A course rating could be generated to reflect the difficulty of the course from the back tees, using tournament green speeds, etc.

We'd then be able to see who was the best week in, week out, and just how good they were compared to us mere mortals. There might not be one player at the top of the ranking each week as ties would be more common but that's no big deal.

Why you could even combine men's and ladies "indexes" into the same table so the best golfer across the board could be identified.
		
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Not quite the same but they are now incorporating a "strokes gained" system 

https://www.owgr.com/news/owgr-launches-modified-ranking-system


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## larmen (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			See I like the fact I can just sit here with my PC screen and have it playing in the background

I almost dont want them to be picked up by TV because the youtube side is just decent (imo)

if they do get picked up id like to see it free to air still, and available via youtube aswell ..
		
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That nails it for me. I don’t have Sky Sports, and this is the available golf for me to watch (didn’t tune in this time, though)
Liv has the advantage of not relying on TV money and having to be shown begonia pay wall.

Do I care who wins? No. But there will be some quality golf on the screen if I want it for free.


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## Wilson (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why is it silly?

The greatest golfers will still face each other in majors - akin to the Football World Cup - except they are more frequent. You can compare it to boxing or darts if it suits your argument, I can compare it to many other sports where players compete in completely different series, then come together every so often to work out who is the best - and of course, that's subjective as it's down to their performance at that time.


You just don't like LIV, I get it, but plenty do and are enjoying the change to what is a traditionally boring (to many) format of 72 holes spread out over 4 long days.

I'll sit down tonight at about 6, watch LIV in it's entirety to the end, knowing I haven't missed one single shot worth seeing - brilliant.
		
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Come on, lets not pretend people are suddenly tuning into LIV because the event is one round less than normal. If it had a radically different format, such as the difference between Test Cricket and T20, you may have a point, but three rounds instead of four isn’t going to get more/different people to watch, IMO.

As for OWGR, if LIV wants to be part of it, they need to add an extra round and a cut, not that difficult for them to comprehend I hope.


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## Kaz (Sep 18, 2022)

Wilson said:



			Come on, lets not pretend people are suddenly tuning into LIV because the event is one round less than normal. If it had a radically different format, such as the difference between Test Cricket and T20, you may have a point, but three rounds instead of four isn’t going to get more/different people to watch, IMO.

As for OWGR, if LIV wants to be part of it, they need to add an extra round and a cut, not that difficult for them to comprehend I hope.
		
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LXXII Golf just doesn't have the same ring to it though. 

I watched some of it yesterday and it was a bit of a culture shock. The coverage was atrociously bad, I thought. Screen very busy, too much background noise and just a machine gun switch from shot to shot with no time for any context; just a swing and a ball landing somewhere. As for the commentary - constant inane chatter! Frankly, I found it very unsettling and only lasted about 15 mins.

And, of course, the despicable source of funding and the entire purpose of the "tour" remain as reprehensible as ever. Although, as expected, people who don't care much for women's or LGBT rights have pretty much stopped mentioning that aspect.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)

Kaz said:



			LXXII Golf just doesn't have the same ring to it though. 

I watched some of it yesterday and it was a bit of a culture shock. The coverage was atrociously bad, I thought. Screen very busy, too much background noise and just a machine gun switch from shot to shot with no time for any context; just a swing and a ball landing somewhere. As for the commentary - constant inane chatter! Frankly, I found it very unsettling and only lasted about 15 mins.
		
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If all the traditional golf fans liked it Liv wouldn't be doing their job properly..

It's supposed to be different, bucking against the norm/tradition and aimed at bringing in a different audience.


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## Kaz (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If all the traditional golf fans liked it Liv wouldn't be doing their job properly..

It's supposed to be different, bucking against the norm/tradition and aimed at bringing in a different audience.
		
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I take that point but I'd suggest the sweet spot for them would have been to present something different to draw in that new audience without alienating the existing fan.


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			If all the traditional golf fans liked it Liv wouldn't be doing their job properly..

It's supposed to be different, bucking against the norm/tradition and aimed at bringing in a different audience.
		
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I know right. Because so many people are like - 72 holes?, no way, I want fewer holes dude, 54 holes? wow, fantastic, thats such a game changer, I'm in!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I'm always perplexed that people seem to think that if DJ and Cam Smith for example fall outside the top 100 of the OWGR points then they are now not 2 of the best Golfers in the world.

Of course they are and that's why the OWGR could look for the 1st time not accurately representing the list and lose some meaning.

As each top player moves across and on recent history we have to believe they will continue to trickle across to Liv the OWGR becomes more obsolete..

That is a fact...
		
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Rankings don’t always reflect playing ability and never have done

The rankings were started to give the majors a way of sorting out who plays in the majors - before that they used to “invite” from various lists 

The rankings reflect the player’s performance over a two year period against a set criteria whilst playing in eligible tournaments and on eligible tours. It’s mainly a reflection on form over those events. If DJ does go out of the top 100 then it won’t stop him from being one of the best golfers in the world, same with Smith etc

The only players on LIV that are worried about ranking points are those players that don’t have extended exemptions - DJ won’t care , Smith wont etc. The likes of Gooch etc do care because that’s their way into the majors 

Whilst the majors use them for entry then they won’t become obsolete 

Before LIV started they knew the requirements for ranking points , they knew it would take over a year - there seems to be the idea that everything should change to fit in LIV - why should that be the case , surely if LIV want to be part of the system then they need to fit in. Imo it’s arrogance that the sport should change to suit LIV , and I’m glad that the tours etc are standing up to them 



Mel Smooth said:



			All somebody needs to do, is set up a database that represents the LIV players compared to the rest of the world, it's not that hard to do - infact I wouldn't be surprised if the LIV team are working on it right now - possibly discreetly or by funding some data analysists. Make the information publically accesible so the public can see the CORRECT world golf rankings, and the OWGR is no longer reliable, and once it is no longer reliable, there's a valid argument that it shouldn't be used as qulaification to Major golf competitions.
Then you are left with the argument that players shouldn't be allowed to compete in them because they play in a different series - which is dangerous ground.
		
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Why would they be “correct” world rankings ? 

The system is already in place , it’s been in place for 30 plus years - if LIV want to have ranking points for their events then they need to abide by the same criteria that every single other Tour does , why should they be treated any differently? Why should everything be changed to suit them


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I know right. Because so many people are like - 72 holes?, no way, I want fewer holes dude, 54 holes? wow, fantastic, thats such a game changer, I'm in!!!
		
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My brain can't deal with all that.   Can't we just have a single par 3 inside Wembley Stadium?  They all play that a few times each?  

The format isn't the issue for me.  Its the hypocrisy of the players. Leave or don't leave the existing tours.   Shup up and count your money.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Agree. Bottom line then, that the Saudi venture had done nothing but harm the pro golf product.
		
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The PGA Tour does not own golf. 

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the PGA Tours actions and stance.
So you can not blame all the harm on Liv?..


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The PGA Tour does not own golf.

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?
..
		
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Correct. 

BUT why are LIV players so keen to return to play in PGA/DP events when it suits them, having so dramatically and noisily stormed out??


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Correct.

BUT why are LIV players so keen to return to play in PGA/DP events when it suits them, having so dramatically and noisily stormed out??
		
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Not sure what news you are reading, are you suggesting 48 players have stormed out of something?
#confused


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The PGA Tour does not own golf.

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the PGA Tours actions and stance.
So you can not blame all the harm on Liv?..
		
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I suppose. Germany just 'challenged' France in 1939. Everybody came out a winner, right?


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## Backsticks (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The PGA Tour does not own golf.

Liv has done nothing wrong in starting up a new tour to challenge it?

A large part of why we are where we are is because of the PGA Tours actions and stance.
So you can not blame all the harm on Liv?..
		
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I blame it all on LIV. They just wanted a piece of the profits, and to push Saudi and the Saudis as great guys who just want to share the golf love more evenly around tge world rather than those pesky yanks keeping it all for themselves.

If they were bringing improvement, I would be all for it. But they have brought gimmick and division. No LIV, no gimmick, no division. Saudis are the scary bad guys here, no question about it. Even Phil ackowledges that.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)




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## TheBigDraw (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I blame it all on LIV. They just wanted a piece of the profits, and to push Saudi and the Saudis as great guys who just want to share the golf love more evenly around tge world rather than those pesky yanks keeping it all for themselves.

If they were bringing improvement, I would be all for it. But they have brought gimmick and division. No LIV, no gimmick, no division. Saudis are the scary bad guys here, no question about it. Even Phil ackowledges that.
		
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As I said earlier as a person who likes the traditional format that's been here forever Liv is delighted you hate it because it's not aimed at you.. 

If you liked it they wouldn't be doing their job correctly in bringing something different to attract a new younger audience to the game.


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

Crow said:



			That's an element of a player's ability to compete at the highest level of pressure, not their skill level.
Yes, some players are better at the sharp end than others, but in terms of a ranking system to qualify for top end competition (majors etc), I think a WHS type of arrangement would work well.

If you want to see who is the best competitor then look at their results, many times the argument has been made on here that being OWGR number 1 is worthless compared to winning a major so it's not as though people see it as a goal in itself.

I'm suggesting a simple means of rating players that crosses all tours.
*And it would be nice to see just how good the professionals are compared to us*.
		
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Someone I know (an occasional green fee golfer, who estimates his Hcap as 18) thinks that Rory is “as a scratch golfer, about 18 shots better than me” 

I didn’t really say anything but just nodded..😂


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## Jacko_G (Sep 18, 2022)

I see the haters still wanna hate.

Looking forward to another night of great viewing coming up with Cam Smith the best player in the world showcasing his talents.


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not sure what news you are reading, are you suggesting 48 players have stormed out of something?
#confused
		
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So, you missed the press conferences given by the big names resigning from the Tour?  Never mind, Google away, you'll find them


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			So, you missed the press conferences given by the big names resigning from the Tour?  Never mind, Google away, you'll find them

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Well I don't recall big names, or anyone,  resigning from the DP World Tour, as per your post 🤷‍♂️
I do recall a few resigning from the PGAT, and they were quoted as "to avoid sanctions", but I am not aware of any of them trying to play on the PGAT. 🤷‍♂️
Perhaps it isn't me who needs to "google away"  🤔


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## Swango1980 (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			As I said earlier as a person who likes the traditional format that's been here forever Liv is delighted you hate it because it's not aimed at you.. 

If you liked it they wouldn't be doing their job correctly in bringing something different to attract a new younger audience to the game.
		
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I think that is well off the mark.

Forget tradition, the key thing is that LIV want golf fans that watch golf. 100% of them watched traditional formats, but that is only because that was what was on offer. LIV need to attract those same people, hoping they like, or even prefer, the new format. There is absolutely zero benefit in LIV pissing the existing golf fans off. Unless you expect LIV to win even more fans of people, who don't even watch or like golf at all. 

The only extra market LIV is really getting at the moment, that traditional golf isn't, are the fans that didn't want to pay for Sky, and are happy to watch it for free on youTube. Other than that, it needs to attract kids who hadn't been around to watch golf, and are now watching it on youtube at their leisure. I'd expect that market is significantly less than people who traditionally invested in Sky, for a large part to watch golf. In other words, people who have been eager enough to watch golf already. 

It would be a ridiculous business model for a new golf tour to piss off a huge proportion of their biggest market


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			As I said earlier as a person who likes the traditional format that's been here forever Liv is delighted you hate it because it's not aimed at you..

If you liked it they wouldn't be doing their job correctly in bringing something different to attract a new younger audience to the game.
		
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The main draw for people right now is the fact it’s golf they can watch without having to pay a subscription-the actual golf is still the same minus 18 holes , it’s still the same format being played



IainP said:



			Well I don't recall big names, or anyone,  resigning from the DP World Tour, as per your post 🤷‍♂️
I do recall a few resigning from the PGAT, and they were quoted as "to avoid sanctions", but I am not aware of any of them trying to play on the PGAT. 🤷‍♂️
Perhaps it isn't me who needs to "google away"  🤔
		
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Think the only one who mentioned resigning from the ET was Garcia but then he changed his mind. 

Court cases will sort it all out - or make it worse 😂


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			Well I don't recall big names, or anyone,  resigning from the DP World Tour, as per your post 🤷‍♂️
I do recall a few resigning from the PGAT, and they were quoted as "to avoid sanctions", but I am not aware of any of them trying to play on the PGAT. 🤷‍♂️
Perhaps it isn't me who needs to "google away"  🤔
		
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Selective reading of my post, well done !   Does "a few" mean "most of them" on your world?  Virtually all of them had a press conference. 

So you agree  there were players making a noise about leaving.  

Are you aware Majors are co sanctioned?

As I keep saying.  Leaving is their right.   But they knew it would have consequences.    They are being handsomely paid for it, even the one's finding they have dropped off the end of the "rosta"


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Selective reading of my post, well done 

So you agree  there were players making a noise about leaving. 

Are you aware Majors are co sanctioned?
		
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Majors aren’t “co sanctioned” - they are run by the governing bodies for that major but all tours count them as “qualifying” events for that tour. But the tours have no say in who plays in them


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## IanM (Sep 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Majors aren’t “co sanctioned” - they are run by the governing bodies for that major but all tours count them as “qualifying” events for that tour. But the tours have no say in who plays in them
		
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Apologies... but they do add points in both rankings.  Was my thought and misuse of language. 

Anyway,  additional thought... go to work on Tuesday,  tell your boss you wish to resign from the company,  but only some of it.

I wonder what the reply will be?


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It would be a ridiculous business model for a new golf tour to piss off a huge proportion of their biggest market
		
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👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Best post ever…

That is precisely what the ECB and broadcasters have done with cricket and the Hundred 😡

Cricket Administrators…The only people who have a visceral hatred of their own sport’s fan-base - and who are equally hated by the bread-and-bread fans, due to chasing an ephemeral and mythical market segment


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Apologies... but they do add points in both rankings.  Was my thought and misuse of language. 

Anyway,  additional thought... go to work on Tuesday,  tell your boss you wish to resign from the company,  but only some of it.

I wonder what the reply will be?
		
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That's been the entire arguement tho hasn't it 

They arent suppose to be employees of the PGA  tour. 

So if a labourer wants to go work on 2 sites at once can he or she be stopped?


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

IanM said:



			Selective reading of my post, well done !   Does "a few" mean "most of them" on your world?  Virtually all of them had a press conference.

So you agree  there were players making a noise about leaving. 

Are you aware Majors are co sanctioned?

As I keep saying.  Leaving is their right.   But they knew it would have consequences.    They are being handsomely paid for it, even the one's finding they have dropped off the end of the "rosta"
		
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"Selective reading" 😂🤣😅😆

You should probably go back and read your post again! There was no "some players", and this...
"so dramatically and noisily stormed out"
which you later said meant "resigned"

Anyway, hopefully can leave it - there was plenty of sensible debate on going, without making stuff up for sound bites


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's been the entire arguement tho hasn't it

They arent suppose to be employees of the PGA  tour.

S*o if a labourer wants to go work on 2 sites at once can he or she be stopped?*

Click to expand...

That depends if both sites are happy to employ then part time.  As LIV has a limited number of functions they are happy to let their employees work elsewhere.  The PGA Tour has a full quota of functions and plenty of free agents willing to work them so neither need nor want someone else's part time labour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's been the entire arguement tho hasn't it

They arent suppose to be employees of the PGA  tour.

So if a labourer wants to go work on 2 sites at once can he or she be stopped?
		
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The players are members of relevant tours and gain playing rights in those tours - the membership comes with its rules etc


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			That depends if both sites are happy to employ then part time.  As LIV has a limited number of functions they are happy to let their employees work elsewhere.  The PGA Tour has a full quota of functions and plenty of free agents willing to work them so neither need nor want someone else's part time labour.
		
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Which for that part is fine, however the majors should imo remain open to them if they fit the criteria. I don't believe it should be changed to try and exclude them

DJ etc masters for life

However they could have made points up boosting the DP world tour which would be great to see that get stronger golfers again 

Yet the PGA want them in line and come up with imo a crazy deal where the best 10 players get the PGA tour card and off they pop to the PGA weakening the DP world further


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which for that part is fine, however the majors should imo remain open to them if they fit the criteria. I don't believe it should be changed to try and exclude them

DJ etc masters for life

However they could have made points up boosting the DP world tour which would be great to see that get stronger golfers again

Yet the PGA want them in line and come up with imo a crazy deal where the best 10 players get the PGA tour card and off they pop to the PGA weakening the DP world further
		
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The majors aren’t going to change anything and they also won’t ban them etc or remove their exemptions 

The majors are open to everyone including players not on any tour 

If the R&A , USGA , PGA of America and Augusta Committee get dragged into lawsuits then they may react but until that moment they will stay out of it and keep their qualifying exactly how it is


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			That depends if both sites are happy to employ then part time.  As LIV has a limited number of functions they are happy to let their employees work elsewhere.  *The PGA Tour has a full quota of functions and plenty of free agents willing to work them* so neither need nor want someone else's part time labour.
		
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Is there a PGA event on this weekend? (I know there is - Willett is leading, who ironically wouldn't even be there if LIV didn't exist). Maybe that's an indication of how weak some of these PGA events are?


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The majors aren’t going to change anything and they also won’t ban them etc or remove their exemptions

The majors are open to everyone including players not on any tour

If the R&A , USGA , PGA of America and Augusta Committee get dragged into lawsuits then they may react but until that moment they will stay out of it and keep their qualifying exactly how it is
		
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Agree, although acknowledge Masters Committee are a bit of an unknown. They can come across a bit anti-establishment at times, wanting to do their own thing, however they have these in the published qualification, ahead of the rankings part.
-----
Winners of PGA Tour events that award a full-point allocation for the season-ending Tour Championship, from previous Masters to current Masters

Those qualifying for the previous year's season-ending Tour Championship
-----
Which does come across as a bit "in bed with PGAT".
Who knows maybe the PGAT had their arm twisted...


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2022)

One massive positive of Liv is its slowly weakening the USA Ryder cup team 

Reed , DJ , Bryson all gone ..

Where as who ATM have team Europe lost? All the old guard who if picked would be questionable


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is there a PGA event on this weekend? (I know there is - Willett is leading, who ironically wouldn't even be there if LIV didn't exist). Maybe that's an indication of how weak some of these PGA events are?
		
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Everyone knows that every single PGA or indeed ET event doesn’t always have the top players in them - it’s not the same field every week which is why there are so many different winners each season.

Would it not get a bit boring to see the same players every event ? Right now LIV is moving towards a two man show every event - Cam Smith and DJ ? Will that not start to get a bit boring just having the same two standout players fighting it out every event ?

And right now it’s great to see Willett doing well in the US


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## Swango1980 (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is there a PGA event on this weekend? (I know there is - Willett is leading, who ironically wouldn't even be there if LIV didn't exist). Maybe that's an indication of how weak some of these PGA events are?
		
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You've answered a large reason why many hate LIV, well done. It's existence weakens the fields in the elite golf we already have, whilst the LIV fields are also weak. 

It is weakening the game, not strengthening it.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			One massive positive of Liv is its slowly weakening the USA Ryder cup team

Reed , DJ , Bryson all gone ..

Where as who ATM have team Europe lost? All the old guard who if picked would be questionable
		
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Westwood is playing pretty well right now to be fair - if I was Donald, I'd be picking him.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You've answered a large reason why many hate LIV, well done. It's existence weakens the fields in the elite golf we already have, whilst the LIV fields are also weak.

It is weakening the game, not strengthening it.
		
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No it isn't. You claim you've never watched LIV but are obsessed with it. How is that weakening the game of golf? The fact it's got you and many others so triggered validates it's very existence.
This thread backs that up.


The only thing it's weakened is the value of the subscription packages some of you pay to watch elite golf on Sky etc.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's been the entire arguement tho hasn't it

They arent suppose to be employees of the PGA  tour.

So if a labourer wants to go work on 2 sites at once can he or she be stopped?
		
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Yes they can is the short answer, depending on how they are employed. We have a number of contractors working for us. Their contracts prohibits them from working for one of our competitors at the same time. All of our competitors have the same contracts. 

They players may have been independent when playing on the PGAT. The contracts discussed in the recent court case would suggest they are now employees of LiV though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Westwood is playing pretty well right now to be fair - if I was Donald, I'd be picking him.
		
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Westwood ?!? 😂😂



Mel Smooth said:



			No it isn't. You claim you've never watched LIV but are obsessed with it. How is that weakening the game of golf? The fact it's got you and many others so triggered validates it's very existence.
This thread backs that up.


The only thing it's weakened is the value of the subscription packages some of you pay to watch elite golf on Sky etc.
		
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What will you do next year when you need to pay a subscription to watch LIV


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Yes they can is the short answer, depending on how they are employed. We have a number of contractors working for us. Their contracts prohibits them from working for one of our competitors at the same time. All of our competitors have the same contracts. 

They players may have been independent when playing on the PGAT. The contracts discussed in the recent court case would suggest they are now employees of LiV though.
		
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Which Liv don't mind them playing other events so they can play them if they please 

However it just means they have to play Liv if Liv is playing


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## BiMGuy (Sep 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which Liv don't mind them playing other events so they can play them if they please

However it just means they have to play Liv if Liv is playing
		
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Which is fine if LiV allow it. Doesn’t mean the PGAT have to.

Same as if one of our competitors allowed contractors to work for other companies wouldn’t mean we had to.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No it isn't. You claim you've never watched LIV but are obsessed with it. How is that weakening the game of golf? The fact it's got you and many others so triggered validates it's very existence.
This thread backs that up.


The only thing it's weakened is the value of the subscription packages some of you pay to watch elite golf on Sky etc.
		
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Absolute rubbish. Of course I have interest in it, as it directly impacts the game I watch. It has taken several big names away from PGA.

You seem to have a lot to say about the PGA Tour and DP World Tour. Ate you obsessed with them?

I never said I didn't watch LIV. I watched a little of the first event. I gave my feedback on it at the time. I hated it. It felt like a highlights program, the team event was abysmal and it showed a lot of uninteresting golfers.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Westwood ?!? 😂😂



What will you do next year when you need to pay a subscription to watch LIV
		
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Come round your house and watch through your window 😂


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## pokerjoke (Sep 18, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You've answered a large reason why many hate LIV, well done. It's existence weakens the fields in the elite golf we already have, whilst the LIV fields are also weak.

It is weakening the game, not strengthening it.
		
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How does having 2 ways of watching golf weaken golf?
What is does is weaken the PGA field,although it’s still very strong.
Liv was weak but it’s getting stronger and has every tournament so far.
Both tours will stabilise again and we will be able to watch both.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come round your house and watch through your window 😂
		
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🤷‍♂️ It’s certainly not something i would pay for ? 

But I’m guessing the answer avoids it - LIV are looking for a media deal , that’s going to involve the media company looking to recover costs 

Right now millions are happy to pay for multi sport subscriptions and with the golf subscription comes with all the majors etc 

How many people are going to pay to watch the LIV events on a media source - when right now the levels watching it for free are low


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## evemccc (Sep 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everyone knows that every single PGA or indeed ET event doesn’t always have the top players in them - it’s not the same field every week which is why there are so many different winners each season.

Would it not get a bit boring to see the same players every event ? Right now LIV is moving towards a two man show every event - Cam Smith and DJ ? Will that not start to get a bit boring just having the same two standout players fighting it out every event ?

And right now it’s great to see Willett doing well in the US
		
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But I believe you (or others) used the idea of the best players playing together as a reason against the splintering of pro golf through LIV


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

evemccc said:



			But I believe you (or others) used the idea of the best players playing together as a reason against the splintering of pro golf through LIV
		
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I certainly wouldn’t want to see the same top 50 guys play week in week out.

Always have to see a mixture through the season and full fields where it could be the world number 1 or the world 200 who has a chance of winning. Whilst Woods was stunning as a player when he was dominating it was boring.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Is there a PGA event on this weekend? (I know there is - Willett is leading, who ironically wouldn't even be there if LIV didn't exist). Maybe that's an indication of how weak some of these PGA events are?
		
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I think everyone would agree that some PGAT events don't have the strongest of fields.  But they are providing playing opportunities almost every week of the year to those that meet the qualifying criteria all within a commercially viable framework.  LiV events, on the other hand, provide employment opportunities to a limited field of around 1/3 that of the PGAT tour for a mamimum of 14 weeks of the year and all of them are pretty poor in their field make up in comparison to the top PGAT and DP tour events.


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## BrianM (Sep 18, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I think everyone would agree that some PGAT events don't have the strongest of fields.  But they are providing playing opportunities almost every week of the year to those that meet the qualifying criteria all within a commercially viable framework.  LiV events, on the other hand, provide employment opportunities to a limited field of around 1/3 that of the PGAT tour for a mamimum of 14 weeks of the year and all of them are pretty poor in their field make up in comparison to the top PGAT and DP tour events.
		
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But can businesses change and push on to make a better product, the DPWT have lost out to a better business product (PGA) more money, the circle of life, regardless of our own opinions on who’s got enough.
We need competition for fairness, anyone with half a brain knows DJ, CamSmith, maybe BDC & Patrick Reed are world class.


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## JamesR (Sep 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			But can businesses change and push on to make a better product, the DPWT have lost out to a better business product (PGA) more money, the circle of life, regardless of our own opinions on who’s got enough.
We need competition for fairness, anyone with half a brain knows DJ, CamSmith, maybe BDC & Patrick Reed are world class.
		
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They are world class, but they only play against each other plus a bunch of nobodies , rather than all the rest of the best in the world.


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## BrianM (Sep 18, 2022)

JamesR said:



			They are world class, but they only play against each other plus a bunch of nobodies , rather than all the rest of the best in the world.
		
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Your right James, but if you were involved from a business point of view what would be your thoughts?
I’m not keen on the format but I’m more gutted from a European side that we never looked after our own, anyone can see that, as for Keith Pelley, disgusted, but why is a Canadian looking after our affairs, was he really the best choice?


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## JamesR (Sep 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Your right James, but if you were involved from a business point of view what would be your thoughts?
I’m not keen on the format but I’m more gutted from a European side that we never looked after our own, anyone can see that, as for Keith Pelley, disgusted, but why is a Canadian looking after our affairs, was he really the best choice?
		
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I don’t think that where he’s from really matters.


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## BrianM (Sep 18, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I don’t think that where he’s from really matters.
		
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Why not?
I’ve worked for American companies since 2007, with no disrespect they never were really bothered with the Uk.


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## IainP (Sep 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Keep up the progress, and he could get to Champions tour standard maybe, but the way Harrington is playing, Phil would still find it tough going there.
		
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Maybe Phil read this.😆😆
He shot -6 today 😲


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Your right James, but if you were involved from a business point of view what would be your thoughts?
I’m not keen on the format but I’m more gutted from a European side that we never looked after our own, anyone can see that, as for Keith Pelley, disgusted, but why is a Canadian looking after our affairs, was he really the best choice?
		
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What could the European Tour have done to stop players going to the US ?

Also not sure what Pellys nationality has to do with anything - people moved to the US a long time before he was in post


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## BrianM (Sep 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What could the European Tour have done to stop players going to the US ?

Also not sure what Pellys nationality has to do with anything - people moved to the US a long time before he was in post
		
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Phil, without being disrespectful, his nationality can have a lot to do with it, he maybe doesn’t fully understand the thoughts of the European people and what they want.

Could the European tour of done more, in my opinion,yes, what, I’m not sure, sponsors, good relations etc.

I believe we (European tour) have hung ourselves out to dry and that’s the problem from our side.


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## JamesR (Sep 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Why not?
I’ve worked for American companies since 2007, with no disrespect they never were really bothered with the Uk.
		
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He doesn’t work for a US company. He works for the European Tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 18, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Phil, without being disrespectful, his nationality can have a lot to do with it, he maybe doesn’t fully understand the thoughts of the European people and what they want.
		
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Seriously ?! “What the European people want” ?!

And what exactly is that ? 

Does the European Tour not play all over the world and has done for decades ? So someone who has been CEO of sports ventures and global media would be the right choice - his nationality should have nothing to do with 




			Could the European tour of done more, in my opinion,yes, what, I’m not sure, sponsors, good relations etc.

I believe we (European tour) have hung ourselves out to dry and that’s the problem from our side.
		
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Do you not think they are doing that already , trying to get the sponsers in ? 

The biggest golf market is the US , that’s where there is the sponsors , the money , the year round tournaments 

The ET could have financially crippled itself trying to challenge the PGAT or it could get a working relationship with it to help boost ET events.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			But can businesses change and push on to make a better product, the DPWT have lost out to a better business product (PGA) more money, the circle of life, regardless of our own opinions on who’s got enough.
We need competition for fairness, anyone with half a brain knows DJ, CamSmith, maybe BDC & Patrick Reed are world class.
		
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The European Tour has been playing second fiddle to the PGAT since I started watching golf some 50 years ago.  Yes of course business can change to make a better product,  but LiV has nothing to do with business (its political) and is certainly not a better product in its current form.  

Business competition falls way behind fair & open sporting competition when it comes to my interest in sport and LiV is most definitely not providing that,  as it does not have a clear path to entry.  Nearly all football fans opposed the Super League proposals for that very reason,  I just do not understand why there are some golf fans who can find a way to support this.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Phil, without being disrespectful, his nationality can have a lot to do with it, he maybe doesn’t fully understand the thoughts of the European people and what they want.

Could the European tour of done more, in my opinion,yes, what, I’m not sure, sponsors, good relations etc.

I believe we (European tour) have hung ourselves out to dry and that’s the problem from our side.
		
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So you think the European tour could have done more,  but you do not know how,  how very constructive. I shouldn't though be surprised having sat through the whinging at many a golf club AGM.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			The European Tour has been playing second fiddle to the PGAT since I started watching golf some 50 years ago.  Yes of course business can change to make a better product,  but LiV has nothing to do with business (its political) and is certainly not a better product in its current form. 

Business competition falls way behind fair & open sporting competition when it comes to my interest in sport and LiV is most definitely not providing that,  as it does not have a clear path to entry.  Nearly all football fans opposed the Super League proposals for that very reason,  I just do not understand why there are some golf fans who can find a way to support this.
		
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The Eurooean tour has played second fiddle to the US for 3 reasons : 
- the US has the best golfers. They win the most majors, the ultimate measure. European ones were rare, and still sporadic compared to US ones
- Tiger. Arnie. Jack. 
- Corporate America funds golf, and golf has a much longer, deeper, and widespread history among affluent Americans, CEOs, boards, banks, motor companies, etc than Europe.

The ET could never comoete with that. And once you occupy the ground of top dog, for whatever historical reason, you can often stay there even if the original reason for gaining it is gone. 

LIV has made a couple of dents, and they are still only small dents, in the PGAT, because they have unloaded a suitcase full of oil cash to try to takeover.


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## howbow88 (Sep 19, 2022)

IanM said:



			My brain can't deal with all that.   Can't we just have a single par 3 inside Wembley Stadium?  They all play that a few times each?
		
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Why a few times? Everyone should just play it once and if there's a tie, the winner is decided on who has the most followers on Instagram.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I think everyone would agree that some PGAT events don't have the strongest of fields.  But they are providing playing opportunities almost every week of the year to those that meet the qualifying criteria all within a commercially viable framework.  LiV events, on the other hand, provide employment opportunities to a limited field of around 1/3 that of the PGAT tour for a mamimum of 14 weeks of the year and* all of them are pretty poor in their field make up in comparison to the top PGAT and DP tour events.*

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You mean the majors and a select few other events? In the main, the fields in the tour events are nothing to get excited about.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ It’s certainly not something i would pay for ?

But I’m guessing the answer avoids it - LIV are looking for a media deal , that’s going to involve the media company looking to recover costs

Right now millions are happy to pay for multi sport subscriptions and with the golf subscription comes with all the majors etc

How many people are going to pay to watch the LIV events on a media source - when right now the levels watching it for free are low
		
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Well, I honestly don't know who will pay - we're just assuming of course that the cost is going to be comparable to what people pay for Sky, but that's because we've been brainwashed into thinking that it's good value - it may be more, it may be less, it may even remain free - we just don't know at this stage.

If it stayed on You Tube forever, that would be fine with me - but I know there are peope out there that want to be able to switch on their television and find "LIV Golf", on their TV programme menu, rather than watching via You Tube. Obviously it will also accelerate the popularity of the series if it can be seen as more 'mainstream'

Time will tell I guess, but with 14 events, there isn't any value to the consumer in an expensive annual subscription, and there isn't great value in that deal for the broadcaster - essentially the money in LIV isn't just going to come from the TV deal, it will come from sponsors who will want maximum exposure (I've seen an 800million dollar team sponsorship mentioned this morning).

Guess we'll just have to see how it pans out - I'm expecting it will be behind a paywall next year but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.


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## IanM (Sep 19, 2022)

howbow88 said:



			Why a few times? Everyone should just play it once and if there's a tie, the winner is decided on who has the most followers on Instagram.
		
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Excellent suggestion.   Maybe go straight to step two?  People won't want to watch all that golf?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Phil, without being disrespectful, his nationality can have a lot to do with it, he maybe doesn’t fully understand the thoughts of the European people and what they want.

Could the European tour of done more, in my opinion,yes, what, I’m not sure, sponsors, good relations etc.

I believe we (European tour) have hung ourselves out to dry and that’s the problem from our side.
		
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That man is single handedly undermining and selling off the European Tour. It's a shame how far he is prepared to go to please the US.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			That man is single handedly undermining and selling off the European Tour. It's a shame how far he is prepared to go to please the US.
		
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I guess people will realise his agenda, when he steps into a role on the PGAT board....


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Cam Smith - best in the world winning last night. Great viewing.

LIV is here to stay stop letting the media brainwash you. Brilliant day yesterday watching Oban's Bobby Mac holding off the US Open Champion followed by LIV last night.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean the majors and a select few other events? In the main, the fields in the tour events are nothing to get excited about.
		
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And yet here you are, constantly getting excited about the field in LIV. 

Sounds like all you are doing is hugely spinning any fact to ensure you are pro LIV and anti PGA Tour. Even if it is the same fact, but interpreted in completely opposite ways depending on whether it is related to PGA or LIV. 

Regarding your next post, where you mention being brainwashed by what we pay Sky. Another nonsense statement. People will pay what they want to pay. If it was too much, they generally wouldn't pay. Unless you think we are all brainwashed into paying what we do for a pint of milk, set of golf clubs, a car, a house or anything else we use our money for.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Cam Smith - best in the world winning last night. Great viewing.

LIV is here to stay stop letting the media brainwash you. Brilliant day yesterday watching Oban's Bobby Mac holding off the US Open Champion followed by LIV last night.
		
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Haha. To me that shows how awful LIV is at the moment. Until I saw your post, I didn't even realise there was a LIV event on this weekend. Now, I am sure there might have been other posts I missed (sometimes I skip a load of pages as loads of comments have been made since I last checked). However, virtually all the posts I've seen are the same old rubbish about LIV being better than PGA Tour or vice versa. A LIV thread, and not even LIV supporters have been trying to focus on the golf being played on LIV. And, clearly mainstream media must be ignoring it as much as possible, while not seen any adds on facebook or youTube about it.

LIV has a long long way to go. If LIV fans feel they still need to spend more effort justifying its existence, it proves it is nowhere near where they want it to be yet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, I honestly don't know who will pay - we're just assuming of course that the cost is going to be comparable to what people pay for Sky, but that's because we've been brainwashed into thinking that it's good value - it may be more, it may be less, it may even remain free - we just don't know at this stage.

If it stayed on You Tube forever, that would be fine with me - but I know there are peope out there that want to be able to switch on their television and find "LIV Golf", on their TV programme menu, rather than watching via You Tube. Obviously it will also accelerate the popularity of the series if it can be seen as more 'mainstream'

Time will tell I guess, but with 14 events, there isn't any value to the consumer in an expensive annual subscription, and there isn't great value in that deal for the broadcaster - essentially the money in LIV isn't just going to come from the TV deal, it will come from sponsors who will want maximum exposure (I've seen an 800million dollar team sponsorship mentioned this morning).

Guess we'll just have to see how it pans out - I'm expecting it will be behind a paywall next year but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.
		
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When you only have such a small audience when you consider the size of the golf market then I’m not sure what mainstream media will pay any significant amount for - even for free it’s not attracting a big audience 

And 800mil ? It’s coming down from the 2bn that was initially stated - I’ll be astounded if any non Saudi company pays 800mil for a “team” within an individual sport - there is zero value in it , minimal exposure and as with the Apple TV suggestion far too toxic right now 

It’s a very much small area of the market right now and it’s not really growing , there are big social media marketing ploys to try and expand the audience but it doesn’t appear to be working , the idea of a global tour was good but then they focus 70% of the events in the US , add in the lack of ranking points which won’t be solved anytime soon , sparse crowds , so the only thing holding it up is the bottomless pit of Saudi money. 

Big Telly deals and 800mil sponsership or buying teams is imo complete fantasy


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And yet here you are, constantly getting excited about the field in LIV.

Sounds like all you are doing is hugely spinning any fact to ensure you are pro LIV and anti PGA Tour. Even if it is the same fact, but interpreted in completely opposite ways depending on whether it is related to PGA or LIV.

Regarding your next post, where you mention being brainwashed by what we pay Sky. Another nonsense statement. People will pay what they want to pay. If it was too much, they generally wouldn't pay. Unless you think we are all brainwashed into paying what we do for a pint of milk, set of golf clubs, a car, a house or anything else we use our money for.
		
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Excited?

Perhaps he just likes an alternative angle to his golf. One that is challenging the monopoly of the US ran tours. 

Last two tournaments have been very good viewing and I'll continue to watch it. Indeed I watch it for players like Cam Smith and DJ. It's been good to see Westwood still producing form. I had hoped from more from BDC to get me "excited" but to date he hasn't performed. I like BDC - he's a draw for fans. 

I genuinely couldn't care less about the US Tour - it's also awash with cash and sponsorship, they're worried due to Saudi backed cash which in reality will not hugely impact them. Yes they will and have lost a few players but overall they will remain the dominant Tour. It's the European Tour that is gonna be impacted on more as Liv grows. They missed a trick with DJ etc due to wanting to blow smoke up the backside of the PGA.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And yet here you are, constantly getting excited about the field in LIV.

Sounds like all you are doing is hugely spinning any fact to ensure you are pro LIV and anti PGA Tour. Even if it is the same fact, but interpreted in completely opposite ways depending on whether it is related to PGA or LIV.

Regarding your next post, where you mention being brainwashed by what we pay Sky. Another nonsense statement. People will pay what they want to pay. If it was too much, they generally wouldn't pay. Unless you think we are all brainwashed into paying what we do for a pint of milk, set of golf clubs, a car, a house or anything else we use our money for.
		
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I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average - that's the point I'm making. Same applies to the DPWT - which are the events worth watching (as in I'd pay for), I'd say The Scottish Open, The Open, and Wentworth - the rest, I'd rather do something else than feel obliged to turn on my television and watch what I've already paid for - and that is where my brainwashing comment comes in. Sky have "dollied up" their product to make people believe that it's good value, when the reality is, if Sky didn't exist people wouldn't even care about watching some of the content that they sit infront of for hours on end. Would I have sat down and watched Danny Willet, Max Homa and a load more golfers I've never heard of yesterday? Not a chance, but some people will have done because they've paid for it, and they want value out of that subscription.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			That man is single handedly undermining and selling off the European Tour. It's a shame how far he is prepared to go to please the US.
		
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What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average.
		
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Mel, would you list out your top five weaknesses/problems, with the LIV proposition as it is today ?


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, I honestly don't know who will pay - we're just assuming of course that the cost is going to be comparable to what people pay for Sky, but that's because we've been brainwashed into thinking that it's good value - it may be more, it may be less, it may even remain free - we just don't know at this stage.

If it stayed on You Tube forever, that would be fine with me - but I know there are peope out there that want to be able to switch on their television and find "LIV Golf", on their TV programme menu, rather than watching via You Tube. Obviously it will also accelerate the popularity of the series if it can be seen as more 'mainstream'

Time will tell I guess, but with 14 events, there isn't any value to the consumer in an expensive annual subscription, and there isn't great value in that deal for the broadcaster - essentially the money in LIV isn't just going to come from the TV deal, it will come from sponsors who will want maximum exposure *(I've seen an 800million dollar team sponsorship mentioned this morning).*

Guess we'll just have to see how it pans out - I'm expecting it will be behind a paywall next year but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.
		
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You are having a laugh,  nobody is going to pay that to get exposure to 100,000 youtube followers.  For comparison, Man Utd's shirt sponsorship is around the £50 Million mark each year and worldwide tv audiences average 68 million over 53 games.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average - that's the point I'm making. Same applies to the DPWT - which are the events worth watching (as in I'd pay for), I'd say The Scottish Open, The Open, and Wentworth - the rest, I'd rather do something else than feel obliged to turn on my television and watch what I've already paid for - and that is where my brainwashing comment comes in. Sky have "dollied up" their product to make people believe that it's good value, when the reality is, if Sky didn't exist people wouldn't even care about watching some of the content that they sit infront of for hours on end. Would I have sat down and watched Danny Willet, Max Homa and a load more golfers I've never heard of yesterday? Not a chance, but some people will have done because they've paid for it, and they want value out of that subscription.
		
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So, what you are basically saying is Sky are doing an unbelievably good job at giving a great show of what is essentially a poor event / low quality field. So much so that many golf fans choose to give them money and watch what Sky are showing.

Bravo to Sky then. Sport is entertainment, and Sky are clearly providing good entertainment if they get the paying customers in.

I said before, if people actually purely focus on the golf, LIV does not have a better field than regular PGA tour events generally. It is also true that with events nearly every week on PGA, only the avid golf fans watch the smaller PGA Tour events, it is the largest events that get biggest viewing numbers. So, LIV is not going to attract many golf fans based on field quality. It also has all the other hurdles that have been talked in depth, before it isn't considered an exhibition. The only major thing going for it at the moment is that it is free


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			You are having a laugh,  nobody is going to pay that to get exposure to 100,000 youtube followers.  For comparison, Man Utd's shirt sponsorship is around the £50 Million mark each year and worldwide tv audiences average 68 million over 53 games.
		
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I think he is definitely having a laugh. He has made so many bizarre comments, that it is difficult to take any statement he makes seriously to be fair. That is the problem when you cannot objectively see both the strengths and weaknesses in both sides of the debate.

I think Petronas pay Mercedes F1 $75 million in comparison.


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## IainP (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have
		
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I do have some sympathy for Pelley. Early on it would have been a big gamble to jump in with PIF, and not surprisingly he went with a perceived safer option.
It's the ban situation that he's open to criticism on IMO. He likely knew the tour doesn't have as solid a case as the PGAT does  - it may still succeed, we'll have to wait.
It will keep coming up that he had an opportunity to have a number of formerly PGAT players as fairly regular players on DPWT instead, bringing in ranking points and sponsorship opportunities. He didn’t go that way and it's reasonable IMO for him to receive criticism on that.
Early on I did wonder if the plan was to say "I tried Jay, but the lawers overruled me", but actions at BMW seems to have dispelled that.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have
		
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Did O'Grady sell out to the US and agree to give the top 10 players direct access to the US??? Did he undervalue and undersell the Tour and actively seek to weaken it year on year???

You will always have a migration of players who want to further their careers but to actively allow the best 10 players to leave every year is financial suicide. At least let them do that off their own back and go through the Tour Schools not stamp their passports for them. 

It will be very interesting to see where Pelley ends up next......


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, what you are basically saying is Sky are doing an unbelievably good job at giving a great show of what is essentially a poor event / low quality field. So much so that many golf fans choose to give them money and watch what Sky are showing.

Bravo to Sky then. Sport is entertainment, and Sky are clearly providing good entertainment if they get the paying customers in.

I said before, if people actually purely focus on the golf, LIV does not have a better field than regular PGA tour events generally. It is also true that with events nearly every week on PGA, only the avid golf fans watch the smaller PGA Tour events, it is the largest events that get biggest viewing numbers. So, LIV is not going to attract many golf fans based on field quality. It also has all the other hurdles that have been talked in depth, before it isn't considered an exhibition. The only major thing going for it at the moment is that it is free
		
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LIV has without question, an inferior field to most pgat events. LIV has 5 top golfers, 20 middle rankers, and 30 filler. Even when not all turning out in force for the likes of Fedex, Memorial, Players, Arnie's place etc, pgat still has a good scatter of the top 30, and a big wedge of the worlds top 100.
Additionally, they simply have a bigger field. In the nature of golf, that makes a win more difficult, and harder earned.
Liv would have to both expand its field by 50, and, gain another 5-10 top golfers just to reach pgat standard. And it still wouldnt have the full pull of the upper tier pgat events.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			LIV has without question, an inferior field to most pgat events. LIV has 5 top golfers, 20 middle rankers, and 30 filler. Even when not all turning out in force for the likes of Fedex, Memorial, Players, Arnie's place etc, pgat still has a good scatter of it top 30, and a big wedge of the worlds top 100.
Additionally, they simple have a bigger field. in tge nature of golf, that makes a win more difficult, and harder earned.
Liv would have to both expand its field by 50, and, gain another 5-10 top golfer just to reach pgat standard. And it still would have the full pull of the upper tier pgat events.
		
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Agreed.

Furthermore, look at entertainment value for fans. Who cares if Cameron Smith wins a LIV event, or any other player? Really, what does it mean? Just more cash in his already large bank account. All the players in the LIV field are guaranteed to do well financially.

In comparison, look at how the PGA Tour event finished last night. Firstly, there are many in the field where a high placed finish can be life changing financially. That adds pressure to them, but nice to see if any of those players do well. Secondly, a win would be huge for most, not just in terms of money, but in tour exemptions you get for future events, and the huge boost in World Ranking points. Danny Willet goes from pretty much having a guaranteed win, then 2 or 3 minutes later, and 3 putts from 3foot, everything changes. Not nice for him or his supporters, but it is that type of pressure that makes elite sport what it is - captivating to viewers.


----------



## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

Mentioning Willett, I would have thought him LIV bait actually.


----------



## BrianM (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What could the European Tour have done to stop players going to the US ?

Also not sure what Pellys nationality has to do with anything - people moved to the US a long time before he was in post
		
Click to expand...

I’m all for hiring the right person for the job regardless of anything else, but the more decisions Pelley is making the more I think if we had a European person doing the job, someone who has a passion for the European tour, better decisions would of been made.
That’s why his nationality has everything to do with it.


----------



## BrianM (Sep 19, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			The European Tour has been playing second fiddle to the PGAT since I started watching golf some 50 years ago.  Yes of course business can change to make a better product,  but LiV has nothing to do with business (its political) and is certainly not a better product in its current form. 

Business competition falls way behind fair & open sporting competition when it comes to my interest in sport and LiV is most definitely not providing that,  as it does not have a clear path to entry.  Nearly all football fans opposed the Super League proposals for that very reason,  I just do not understand why there are some golf fans who can find a way to support this.
		
Click to expand...

If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

You make a good point. For fans, the money means nothing. Its the win or place that means all. Win a million, 10 million, or a hundred million. Its all the same to us. What matters is the strength of who they beat, the course, the event and its history or prestige. That all can evolve. But evolves according to the strength of the competition, and longevity as an event.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.
		
Click to expand...

Is LIV not business in the way that advertising is a business. It is an investment in the credibility, acceptibility, and normalising of Saudi Arabia for a post-oil era?


----------



## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Agreed.

Furthermore, look at entertainment value for fans. Who cares if Cameron Smith wins a LIV event, or any other player? Really, what does it mean? Just more cash in his already large bank account. All the players in the LIV field are guaranteed to do well financially.

In comparison, look at how the PGA Tour event finished last night. Firstly, there are many in the field where a high placed finish can be life changing financially. That adds pressure to them, but nice to see if any of those players do well. Secondly, a win would be huge for most, not just in terms of money, but in tour exemptions you get for future events, and the huge boost in World Ranking points. Danny Willet goes from pretty much having a guaranteed win, then 2 or 3 minutes later, and 3 putts from 3foot, everything changes. Not nice for him or his supporters, but it is that type of pressure that makes elite sport what it is - captivating to viewers.
		
Click to expand...


Hmmmm,

So the capitulation of Willet last night was entertaining because it was on the main Tour yet the capitulation of Westwood at the previous LIV Tournament wasn't??

I guess we all watch golf for different reasons and see entertainment differently. An exciting climax is always good as is watching someone who is in total control of his swing and ball aka Smith yesterday.

The perception that it's better because it was on the PGA is not one I quite grasp but each to their own. Quality golf is quality golf. I actually find myself migrating more to the LPGA Tour now for entertainment.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.
		
Click to expand...

 You can't really believe that surely,  there has been no discernible business plan from the start,  no sponsorship, no TV  rights so pretty much nothing coming into the "business".    This is most simply using sport as a way to make SA look like an acceptable place to do business and at the moment it is not even succeeding in that aim.  I'll wager in five years time PIV will have given up on this venture and that DJ, BDC etc have pretty much disappeared from view as very wealthy men.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’m all for hiring the right person for the job regardless of anything else, but the more decisions Pelley is making the more I think if we had a European person doing the job, someone who has a passion for the European tour, better decisions would of been made.
That’s why his nationality has everything to do with it.
		
Click to expand...

Ok - in the heads up to 2015 when there was a European in charge this is what was happening to the European Tour 

All the best players leaving 
Tournaments being cancelled 
Sponsers leaving 

We used to have the likes of British Masters , Johnny Walker , Welsh Open , Matchplay 

They are we’re gone by 2015 - under the leadership of a European 

Pelly took over 2015 

British Masters returned 
Wales Open 
Hero Open ( scotland )
Cazoo Masters ( England )

The sponsership and prize money has increased significantly over those 7 years and will continue to increase 

Even the best PGA players are coming over to play in events on the ET 

The Rolex series created 

And Co sanctioned events with the PGAT for the likes of the Scottish Open having its strongest field ever 

More events on mainland Europe 

So what are these “better” decisions that a passionate European could have done that would have changed the fortunes of the ET to enable it to compete against the PGAT ? 

Nothing is perfect but the biggest golf market is the US - it stands to reason that the tour there is going to be the biggest


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Mel, would you list out your top five weaknesses/problems, with the LIV proposition as it is today ?
		
Click to expand...


In what context?


----------



## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok - in the heads up to 2015 when there was a European in charge this is what was happening to the European Tour

All the best players leaving
Tournaments being cancelled
Sponsers leaving

We used to have the likes of British Masters , Johnny Walker , Welsh Open , Matchplay

They are we’re gone by 2015 - under the leadership of a European

Pelly took over 2015

British Masters returned
Wales Open
Hero Open ( scotland )
Cazoo Masters ( England )

The sponsership and prize money has increased significantly over those 7 years and will continue to increase

Even the best PGA players are coming over to play in events on the ET

The Rolex series created

And Co sanctioned events with the PGAT for the likes of the Scottish Open having its strongest field ever

More events on mainland Europe

So what are these “better” decisions that a passionate European could have done that would have changed the fortunes of the ET to enable it to compete against the PGAT ?

Nothing is perfect but the biggest golf market is the US - it stands to reason that the tour there is going to be the biggest
		
Click to expand...

Not giving free passage to the top 10 year on year to devalue your product further each year. That is the biggest decision that would never have been agreed to under previous regimes.

Lunacy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Not giving free passage to the top 10 year on year to devalue your product further each year. That is the biggest decision that would never have been agreed to under previous regimes.

Lunacy.
		
Click to expand...

Who replaces those ten ? Players coming through from the Tour School and those ten don’t have to take it up , and they could be back in a year and it’s highly  likely the top players would have moved anyway - it’s going to improve the likes of MacIntyre as players by playing alongside all the best in the world and no better preparation for the majors

There is also the chance for PGA players to come across

What else could they have done , that’s part of getting an alliance between the two - you can focus on that one issue where as the players and many other can focus on all the other improvements made toward the ET

But certainly would be interested in finding out what could have been done differently to try and improve the fortunes of the ET which we’re going rapidly downhill under those previous regimes you allude too


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## garyinderry (Sep 19, 2022)

56k watching this last night.   

Theres no chance of 800million deals for teams for those kinds of numbers. 

There can be talk of growing the game and getting a new audience. I wager the majority of people watching are older golf fans looking to see their old favourites play. 

Where are all these new viewers?


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Not giving free passage to the top 10 year on year to devalue your product further each year. That is the biggest decision that would never have been agreed to under previous regimes.

Lunacy.
		
Click to expand...

So how could Pelley have stopped it even if he had wanted to?  The rules for Qualifying for a tour are in the hands of that tour,  if the PGAT decide one of the rules would be to finish top 10 on another tour,  I don't see how that other tour could stop it.  Better to agree and get concessions in return than to sit on your hands waiting for t just to happen.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			So how could Pelley have stopped it even if he had wanted to?  The rules for Qualifying for a tour are in the hands of that tour,  if the PGAT decide one of the rules would be to finish top 10 on another tour,  I don't see how that other tour could stop it.  Better to agree and get concessions in return than to sit on your hands waiting for t just to happen.
		
Click to expand...


PGA - we're losing some guys to LIV let's try and plug it by making it easier to poach the best talent from other tours. I know we'll tell Pelley we're taking his best. Great idea he'll agree to that without a fight. 

No smoke without fire - there are rumours of disheartened players and ex Ryder Cup captains questioning his decisions. He's firefighting as it is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			PGA - we're losing some guys to LIV let's try and plug it by making it easier to poach the best talent from other tours. I know we'll tell Pelley we're taking his best. Great idea he'll agree to that without a fight.

No smoke without fire - there are rumours of disheartened players and ex Ryder Cup captains questioning his decisions. He's firefighting as it is.
		
Click to expand...

So what would someone else had done differently since 2015 ? 

Under the previous regime tournaments were being lost due to a lack of sponsorship 

Players already jumping ship as soon as they could 

Are you just concentrating on those ten players that gain Tour cards - what about all the other improvements made over the last 7 years 

And the two players vocal about the changes - Westwood and Garcia ?! Same Garcia and Westwood who took up PGA membership whenever they could and the same players who jumped ship to LIV


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what would someone else had done differently since 2015 ?

Under the previous regime tournaments were being lost due to a lack of sponsorship

Players already jumping ship as soon as they could

Are you just concentrating on those ten players that gain Tour cards - what about all the other improvements made over the last 7 years

And the two players vocal about the changes - Westwood and Garcia ?! Same Garcia and Westwood who took up PGA membership whenever they could and the same players who jumped ship to LIV
		
Click to expand...

Every regime has had tournaments lost due to sponsorship and every regime has had new tournaments due to new sponsorship opportunities.

Gaining and losing is no consequence of who is running the Tour, its financial, economical and political factors that decide or effect sponsorship. Even back in the days of B&H and other tobacco sponsorships. 

Undervaluing and selling yourself to side with the PGA over a perceived threat by Liv while weakening your product is laughable.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Hmmmm,

So the capitulation of Willet last night was entertaining because it was on the main Tour yet the capitulation of Westwood at the previous LIV Tournament wasn't??

I guess we all watch golf for different reasons and see entertainment differently. An exciting climax is always good as is watching someone who is in total control of his swing and ball aka Smith yesterday.

The perception that it's better because it was on the PGA is not one I quite grasp but each to their own. Quality golf is quality golf. I actually find myself migrating more to the LPGA Tour now for entertainment.
		
Click to expand...

For me, 100% yes. I'm not saying Westwood's collapse would not have hurt. But, it would have simply hurt in the same way it would hurt me collapsing in a monthly medal, and losing out on a bit more prize money to be spent in pro shop. Obviously might hurt a bit more than that, as he has people watching him and so his collapse is very public, in comparison.

But Willet's collapse has other things at stake, that are simply not relevant in Westwood's case.

If, in Charity Aid, England conceded a last minute losing goal to Germany, of course it would be a bummer for the English players and fans. But, it wouldn't really hurt that much. Yet, if it was in the World Cup final, I'd be willing to bet it would hurt much much much more. Just another game of football, yet nothing alike in terms of engagement with fans.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Every regime has had tournaments lost due to sponsorship and every regime has had new tournaments due to new sponsorship opportunities.

Gaining and losing is no consequence of who is running the Tour, its financial, economical and political factors that decide or effect sponsorship. Even back in the days of B&H and other tobacco sponsorships.

Undervaluing and selling yourself to side with the PGA over a perceived threat by Liv while weakening your product is laughable.
		
Click to expand...

When they lost tobacco sponsership the tour events still kept going - the ET has never and never will be able to compete with the PGAT , any top players that wants to win and challenge for the majors consistently will be moving to the PGAT 

The alliance with the PGAT started in 2021 before LIV came around 

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworl...ounce-details-of-historic-strategic-alliance/

What else could the ET do ? It doesn’t have the backing or standing on its own , if the players don’t go to the PGA then they go to LIV 

So what should they have done 

It’s ok to constantly be critical of the decision but what’s alternative


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## IainP (Sep 19, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			56k watching this last night.  

Theres no chance of 800million deals for teams for those kinds of numbers.

There can be talk of growing the game and getting a new audience. I wager the majority of people watching are older golf fans looking to see their old favourites play.

Where are all these new viewers?
		
Click to expand...

I've genuinely no idea on the numbers or how they'd be worked out,  but do believe the "not on tv" thing is largely a UK & USA conversation. Think it has been on tv in quite a few countries. Edit, link below..
https://www.livgolf.com/how-to-watch
Is also on the website and FB, expect probably they don't show on the YT numbers either.
Those deal numbers do sound too high though 🙂


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## evemccc (Sep 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Is LIV not business in the way that advertising is a business. It is an investment in the credibility, acceptibility, and normalising of Saudi Arabia for a post-oil era?
		
Click to expand...

How is that different to all of the Dubai and UAE-backed sports events for the last 20 years?


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 19, 2022)

So what did you do on the day of the queens funeral?
Same thing as I do every day,argue with people on social media about LIV.

😂😂😂😂😂


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)

The last 2 LIV events have really stepped up as a viewing experience and quality of product..

I committed to watching all 3 rounds of the last 2 events which is easier to do with a shotgun start (Less Time)
The standard of golf has been top draw which couldn't be said for the first few events to be honest.
Love the fact they didn't water the greens before the final day so they firmed up and made it really tough if you missed the fairway and not target golf like you tend to get in the USA events

The reason for the better experience is simply the improvement in the overall quality of the field, more top players and less players you haven't heard of.
Also the big names of BDC and Phil M are starting to get back nearer to their best, Brooks is still struggling a bit.
Peter Uihlein who I have never heard of really held his own yesterday playing with DJ and Cam Smith for a fantastic 2nd place, fair play to him and that cheque changes his life I would have thought.

Dare I say I'm starting to get my head round the team format and last night really wanted anyone but the 4 aces to win again.
The team format is great for keeping players focused and playing for something even when they are well out of contention for the individual prize which I think is a really good thing.

Also having watched the last 2 events these guys are not going through the motions, they want to win these events as much as the PGA Tour events because they are professional sportsman.

If you took time to watch a whole event you would see that clear as day..

I totally understand its not for everyone but I have to say I have really enjoyed watching it and only see the field and product getting stronger.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 19, 2022)

Viewing figures going down suggests there isn’t much appetite for louder golf.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Viewing figures going down suggests there isn’t much appetite for louder golf.

View attachment 44390

Click to expand...

Yet the crowds at the events are going up dramatically. 

Reports say they have signed a TV contract with the Fox Sports Network..


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)




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## pokerjoke (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok - in the heads up to 2015 when there was a European in charge this is what was happening to the European Tour

All the best players leaving
Tournaments being cancelled
Sponsers leaving

We used to have the likes of British Masters , Johnny Walker , Welsh Open , Matchplay

They are we’re gone by 2015 - under the leadership of a European

Pelly took over 2015

British Masters returned
Wales Open
Hero Open ( scotland )
Cazoo Masters ( England )

The sponsership and prize money has increased significantly over those 7 years and will continue to increase

Even the best PGA players are coming over to play in events on the ET

The Rolex series created

And Co sanctioned events with the PGAT for the likes of the Scottish Open having its strongest field ever

More events on mainland Europe

So what are these “better” decisions that a passionate European could have done that would have changed the fortunes of the ET to enable it to compete against the PGAT ?

Nothing is perfect but the biggest golf market is the US - it stands to reason that the tour there is going to be the biggest
		
Click to expand...

Can anyone find a post from a few years back when LP absolutely slated Pelley.
Now all of a sudden he’s the saviour 🙏🤷‍♂️


----------



## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			In what context?
		
Click to expand...

In the context of being a viable, entertaining, and competitive golf tour.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

evemccc said:



			How is that different to all of the Dubai and UAE-backed sports events for the last 20 years?
		
Click to expand...

Its no different.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yet the crowds at the events are going up dramatically.

Reports say they have signed a TV contract with the Fox Sports Network..
		
Click to expand...

The 18th was rammed for the final group yesterday, seen a few comments from people who were there that said generally, the crowd at the event was impressive


The football season has started in the U.S. It was always anticipated that this would affect the numbers of viewers - and I suspect Bangkok and Jeddah will be down because of the geographical location - and the fact that it just won't have the traction that has deceloped in the USA.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In the context of being a viable, entertaining, and competitive golf tour.
		
Click to expand...

The source of the funding.
Lack of support from golf mainstream media
Players from both sides bitching about each other
LIV needs to get a couple more players that will add to the top end mix at the events
A TV deal is obviously needed to bolster the credibility of the series.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:









Click to expand...

Hope you’re getting paid for your efforts to boost that rather tragic view count


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)

Liv v PGA has had a devastating effect on the ROTW Presidents Cup Team. 


Average world rank of USA is 11.83
Average world rank of ROTW is 48 

Hope they don't get completely rolled over..


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## IainP (Sep 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The source of the funding.
Lack of support from golf mainstream media
Players from both sides bitching about each other
LIV needs to get a couple more players that will add to the top end mix at the events
A TV deal (* in USA) is obviously needed to bolster the credibility of the series.
		
Click to expand...

I'd add,
 is currently dependent on the existing tours infrastructure 
 And the commentators have been using "three-peat" & "four-peat" 🤢   , I hadn't heard a single "clutch" and then they go and do that 🤨 😆


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Viewing figures going down suggests there isn’t much appetite for louder golf.

View attachment 44390

Click to expand...

There is a simple explanation that I have just read about..

The NFL started in the USA, all sports go down in the US when football season starts.

The PGAT don't start their strong iconic events till the NFL season is over.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 19, 2022)

It seems one of the biggest talking points of the LIV tournament this weekend was BDC and a spectator rope 

There are a number of videos around which must be watched and his reaction is quite amusing 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571843429876862977


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## BiMGuy (Sep 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It seems one of the biggest talking points of the LIV tournament this weekend was BDC and a spectator rope

There are a number of videos around which must be watched and his reaction is quite amusing


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571843429876862977

Click to expand...

He’s gone down like Salah there 😂


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## Harry Putter (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			There is a simple explanation that I have just read about..

The NFL started in the USA, all sports go down in the US when football season starts.

The PGAT don't start their strong iconic events till the NFL season is over.
		
Click to expand...

  Mate, do yourself a favour, stop grasping.. it's not clever.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			There is a simple explanation that I have just read about..

The NFL started in the USA, all sports go down in the US when football season starts.

The PGAT don't start their strong iconic events till the NFL season is over.
		
Click to expand...

You are saying the PGAT is better than Saudi tour at getting their scheduling right?


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 19, 2022)

Great presser done by Cam Smith

Talks about pressure to win on liv. 
Nerves being the big signing
OGWR points
Events history.


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## Harry Putter (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Great presser done by Cam Smith

Talks about pressure to win on liv.
Nerves being the big signing
OGWR points
Events history.







Click to expand...

Pressure to win on LIV when he's just banked £100m...??

Do me a favour mate, stop talking from the posterior end.

He's not grinning from @rse to ear for no reason.


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## Backsticks (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Great presser done by Cam Smith

Talks about pressure to win on liv.
Nerves being the big signing
OGWR points
Events history.







Click to expand...

Good it is. How he keeps a straight face through it is impressive.


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## Harry Putter (Sep 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Great presser done by Cam Smith

Talks about pressure to win on liv.
Nerves being the big signing
OGWR points
Events history.







Click to expand...

I tried to listen but Cam Smith must possibly be one of the the most boring interviewees ever, only 2nd to Dustin Johnson.. Sorry, great golfers and lots of cash thanks to LIV, but OMG, they are dull.

Give me Rory, Rahm, Fitzpatrick or Tyrell any day.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 19, 2022)

And still the haters hate.

🤣🤭


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## Crow (Sep 19, 2022)

"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012 

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)


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## ExRabbit (Sep 20, 2022)

I like watching golf when I can. That works for me.


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## Backsticks (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)
		
Click to expand...

The PGAT is generating the most interest in golf. Only a trivial handful by comparison follow the LIV golf.

A lot of people are following the LIV v PGAT dogfight between to businesses.


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## Imurg (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)
		
Click to expand...

And what is creating the interest? 
99% of the chat about LIV is about money, defections, SA, points, money, GN, money, shotgun starts, money......
Barely anything about the golf itself...
There's been more interest in Bryson and the rope than whoever won at the weekend..
Doesn't that suggest that the actual golf isn't that interesting?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012 

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)
		
Click to expand...

The thread about war in Ukraine generated a huge amount of posts earlier this year. A Covid thread was also very popular a while back. These may have sparked interest, but not for positive reasons. 

Be careful not to try and spin stats to come to the wrong conclusion. As has already been said, you should ask yourself how many of the LIV posts are about the golf, how many are about golf politics and how many are comments about how rubbish it is. Also, in terms of positive comments, how many different posters are making those? I wouldn't be surprised if the number of posts from one person exceeded the total posts in the Professional Golf Thread


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Great presser done by Cam Smith

Talks about pressure to win on liv. 
Nerves being the big signing
OGWR points
Events history. 







Click to expand...

Talking about brainwashing, it looks like Cam Smith has done a number on you 

Realistically, would anyone expect him to come out and say "I'm a made man, no pressure anymore, and I can just chill out and not worry about the result". Of course not.


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## BrianM (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Talking about brainwashing, it looks like Cam Smith has done a number on you 

Realistically, would anyone expect him to come out and say "I'm a made man, no pressure anymore, and I can just chill out and not worry about the result". Of course not.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think any player on any tour goes down the 18th thinking it doesn’t matter, I’ve already got x amount in the bank, of course not, his interview his relevant.
If you don’t like it or him, then that’s your prerogative.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 20, 2022)

Wonder if these US businesses will get slammed for doing business ? 

ttps://twitter.com/USChamber/status/1571486163835228162?t=QbNuOUuX7R0ge0iM22NQjA&s=19


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Do you honestly think any player on any tour goes down the 18th thinking it doesn’t matter, I’ve already got x amount in the bank, of course not, his interview his relevant.
If you don’t like it or him, then that’s your prerogative.
		
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If you read some of my most recent posts, you know that is not what I think. I keep saying, most of us get nervous in our monthly medal if we have a chance to win.

But, if you want me to be clearer, the pressure on LIV is nowhere near in the same league as other tours. So, from a relative point of view, the pressure is insignificant on LIV.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Talking about brainwashing, it looks like Cam Smith has done a number on you 

Realistically, would anyone expect him to come out and say "I'm a made man, no pressure anymore, and I can just chill out and not worry about the result". Of course not.
		
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Or we can flip that and say Rory is a made man with his multi million bank balance and as a result cannot get it over the line due to not needing the money. Wentworth and now Italy.

Or perhaps we should focus on the positive of quality golf played by the winners like DJ, Smith, Lowry and MacIntyre.

No pressure to win on Liv PMSL at the ignorance.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you read some of my most recent posts, you know that is not what I think. I keep saying, most of us get nervous in our monthly medal if we have a chance to win.

But, if you want me to be clearer, the pressure on LIV is nowhere near in the same league as other tours. So, from a relative point of view, the pressure is insignificant on LIV.
		
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Budgie seed and broken bottles.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Or we can flip that and say Rory is a made man with his multi million bank balance and as a result cannot get it over the line due to not needing the money. Wentworth and now Italy.

Or perhaps we should focus on the positive of quality golf played by the winners like DJ, Smith, Lowry and MacIntyre.

No pressure to win on Liv PMSL at the ignorance.
		
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Well, if you want to make completely made up and bizarre arguments, go ahead. I assume you are talking about Rory not getting it over the line in Majors? Even the strongest LIV supporters know the Majors have more pressure than any LIV event, or standard PGA Tour event.  And it has nothing to do with money.

I am sure some quality golf is played on LIV. Just like I am sure there is some quality golf played in practice sessions or pro Ams. Still not interested in watching those on TV


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you read some of my most recent posts, you know that is not what I think. I keep saying, most of us get nervous in our monthly medal if we have a chance to win.

But, if you want me to be clearer, the pressure on LIV is nowhere near in the same league as other tours. So, from a relative point of view, the pressure is insignificant on LIV.
		
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So when Westwood went from potentilly winning a few weeks ago, to missing the play off, he didn't feel the same pressure as he would playing in say the Dutch Open.


It cost him about 3 million quid.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 20, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			Pressure to win on LIV when he's just banked £100m...??

Do me a favour mate, stop talking from the posterior end.

He's not grinning from @rse to ear for no reason.
		
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Do you think any top golfers feel pressure in the last round, last few holes or do they all float around the course in a care free manner? Does winning matter, proving your ability against your peers etc or does none of that matter when your bank balance is bulging? 

All of the top players are set for life, it's not only liv guys with big money in the bank.


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## BrianM (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If you read some of my most recent posts, you know that is not what I think. I keep saying, most of us get nervous in our monthly medal if we have a chance to win.

But, if you want me to be clearer, the pressure on LIV is nowhere near in the same league as other tours. So, from a relative point of view, the pressure is insignificant on LIV.
		
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Pressure is pressure in my opinion, you can’t just control it because of money in the bank, regardless of any tour or tournament.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Pressure is pressure in my opinion, you can’t just control it because of money in the bank, regardless of any tour or tournament.
		
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Apparently you can if it suits your Liv bashing agenda. However it doesn't count the other way round.

Haters will hate. Simples


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Apparently you can if it suits your Liv bashing agenda. However it doesn't count the other way round.

Haters will hate. Simples
		
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Haters will hate. Is that the best comeback you have? 

Put me on the 1st tee in a competition, just with guys in my group, I still feel the pressure and nerves. Add dozens of others around the tee box watching me, that pressure intensifies.

To try and say "pressure is pressure" is incredibly flawed and short sighted.

People rightly comment on the pressure McIlroy is under during Major Championships, in particular the Masters. Why do you think that is, if pressure is just pressure, end of story? After all, he would just be as likely to succumb to the pressure regardless of whether it was a Major or some minor PGA event.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Haters will hate. Is that the best comeback you have?

Put me on the 1st tee in a competition, just with guys in my group, I still feel the pressure and nerves. Add dozens of others around the tee box watching me, that pressure intensifies.

To try and say "pressure is pressure" is incredibly flawed and short sighted.

People rightly comment on the pressure McIlroy is under during Major Championships, in particular the Masters. Why do you think that is, if pressure is just pressure, end of story? After all, he would just be as likely to succumb to the pressure regardless of whether it was a Major or some minor PGA event.
		
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I think you've just defeated your own argument.

Pressure is pressure - correct. Some handle it better than others. Some miss from 3 feet for victory - some handle it better. That's life. 

Some people thrive in getting it over the line - others succumb. 

Cam Smith = best player in the world.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			I think you've just defeated your own argument.

Pressure is pressure - correct. Some handle it better than others. Some miss from 3 feet for victory - some handle it better. That's life. 

Some people thrive in getting it over the line - others succumb. 

Cam Smith = best player in the world.
		
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I think that post has just made you sound ridiculous


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			I think you've just defeated your own argument.

Pressure is pressure - correct. Some handle it better than others. Some miss from 3 feet for victory - some handle it better. That's life.

Some people thrive in getting it over the line - others succumb.

Cam Smith = best player in the world.
		
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Of course pressure isn't just pressure.

For instant having a 3 foot for eagle you will feel some pressure, having a 3 foot put to win a match you will feel more pressure, having a 3 footer to win the Open will be much much more pressure


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Saw a headline of Koepka saying that on LIV that caddies were treated like human beings.

Made me smile, there was nothing stopping you Brooks from giving your caddy better pay and working conditions, you were their employer, I can only assume you didn't guarantee accommodation, travel, and food because you wanted to keep more of your money


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Haters will hate 😂😂 - it’s like being in primary school if that’s the sort of childish responses that happen now


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 20, 2022)

I think we all agree the Fortinet was a low level PGA Tour Event. 

I assume we all agree Danny Willet has plenty of money in the bank. 

Yet the pressure of trying to win resulted in a meltdown. 
The guy is a major champion. 

These incredible Golfers want to win whatever event they are in regardless of which tour and it's obvious to see when you watched the Italian Open, Fortinet and Liv Chicago this past weekend.


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)
		
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Isn't that because some people just can't help but argue - it's basically the same thing posted over & over again.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think we all agree the Fortinet was a low level PGA Tour Event.

I assume we all agree Danny Willet has plenty of money in the bank.

Yet the pressure of trying to win resulted in a meltdown.
The guy is a major champion.

These incredible Golfers want to win whatever event they are in regardless of which tour and it's obvious to see when you watched the Italian Open, Fortinet and Liv Chicago this past weekend.
		
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You are correct, I'm sure Danny Willet does not live in poverty. Still not in the mega mega millions that the very top golfers can command, but I'm sure he has enough to live a very comfortable life, and more than us peasants 

But, it should surely seem obvious to anyone what factors come into play when you talk about the pressure Danny Willett must have felt. Has it not already been mentioned that he is only playing on the PGA Tour because of the spaces left by players going to LIV? If so, it is obvious he cannot take his place on that tour for granted. A win would therefore be absolutely huge for Willet, as it would help solidify his position on that tour for quite some time. Not just in any direct exceptions it would have, but also a huge boost to his World Ranking position (even 2nd place looks to have elevated him from 149th to 88th).

Cameron Smith would have absolutely none of that to play on his mind. All LIV supporters can do is bury their heads in the sand to that fact, and simply cry out "pressure is pressure" enough times, and hope they at least convince themselves. Just because a player wants to win every event they play (of course they do, why wouldn't they?), does not mean every even is equal in terms of pressure or status. Otherwise the Majors wouldn't be what they are, they'd just be another golf competition like the rest of them.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean the majors and a select few other events? In the main, the fields in the tour events are nothing to get excited about.
		
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I'll wager that there are over 30 PGAT fields and around half that for the DPWT where the average OWGR for the top 48 players is higher than any LIV event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			"2022 Professional golf thread"  thread
Last post in July was # 1,289
Current post is # 1,579
Posts in this period = 290

"LIV Golf" thread
Last post in July was # 4,929
Current post is # 6,941
Posts in this period = 2,012

Which tour is generating the most interest?
(And quite a few of the posts in the "2022 Professional golf thread" will be about LIV)
		
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I would expect that the biggest talking point in golf right now would be one of the threads with the highest activity 

The arrival of LIV will continue to create a lot of discussion for a while yet 


TheBigDraw said:



			Wonder if these US businesses will get slammed for doing business ?

ttps://twitter.com/USChamber/status/1571486163835228162?t=QbNuOUuX7R0ge0iM22NQjA&s=19
		
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It should be irrelevant- that’s politics and we all know that government do deals that many wouldn’t agree on - it should have no bearing on peoples thoughts in regards what sport do - sport should be held higher 


Jacko_G said:



			I think you've just defeated your own argument.

Pressure is pressure - correct. Some handle it better than others. Some miss from 3 feet for victory - some handle it better. That's life.

Some people thrive in getting it over the line - others succumb.

Cam Smith = best player in the world.
		
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Best player in the world is subjective 

If going by rankings then he was 2 behind Scheffler 

If going by comp wins this season then he is behind Scheffler 

If going by ability then it’s personal opinion


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Saw a headline of Koepka saying that on LIV that caddies were treated like human beings.

Made me smile, there was nothing stopping you Brooks from giving your caddy better pay and working conditions, you were their employer, I can only assume you didn't guarantee accommodation, travel, and food because you wanted to keep more of your money
		
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And what’s been stopping the PGA and others doing the same, especially for those players not even making a penny, while Jay Monaghans wife was jollying round on the PGA jet at the players expense?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And what’s been stopping the PGA and others doing the same, especially for those players not even making a penny, while Jay Monaghans wife was jollying round on the PGA jet at the players expense?
		
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The caddies are employed by the players. They should be the ones looking after them.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And what’s been stopping the PGA and others doing the same, especially for those players not even making a penny, while Jay Monaghans wife was jollying round on the PGA jet at the players expense?
		
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because caddies are employed by the players, the players pay them their salaries as a percentage of their winnings. Why would a tour get involved, it would be like the Premier League paying the back room staff of Manchester City, why would they do that? 

It was more Brooks' comments, when he was in the PGAT he could have done what he liked to give his caddy a better deal, but never did


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## BrianM (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Of course pressure isn't just pressure.

For instant having a 3 foot for eagle you will feel some pressure, having a 3 foot put to win a match you will feel more pressure, having a 3 footer to win the Open will be much much more pressure
		
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The pressure is the same, it’s how you handle that pressure.
Some can handle it better than others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And what’s been stopping the PGA and others doing the same, especially for those players not even making a penny, while Jay Monaghans wife was jollying round on the PGA jet at the players expense?
		
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The caddies aren’t employed by the PGAT - they are employed by the player , it’s up to the player to look after his caddy not the tour

A lot of the talk in regards LiV was about the players being “independent contractors” yet now people want caddies etc to be paid employees? 

So which is it ? Is everyone an independent contractors who get paid by their performance or are they paid employees ? 

And what Monahan does is irrelevant- I’m guessing you don’t have an issue with GN getting £30mil a year


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## Crow (Sep 20, 2022)

To all who replied to my post about interest in the tours, the point I was making (in too subtle a way it would appear) was that there has been a huge amount of verbiage posted about LIV, most of it from the same half dozen or so posters making the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... 

And over and over and over


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## Slab (Sep 20, 2022)

Of course the players can/should give their caddies a better financial deal but that in itself doesn’t address all the caddie issues or absolve the Tour from doing their part 

We’ve all read stories about caddies not permitted access xyz clubhouse or cant eat in same place as players, cant get a lift to the course etc. Things all totally withing the remit of the Tour to correct. 
Also Tour/s insist that caddies wear advertising at each event without any payment by disguising it as a 'condition of the Players entry' to the tournament that their caddy wears the supplied ‘uniform’

Yes Players can/should do more but make no mistake the Tour can/should do more too


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The pressure is the same, it’s how you handle that pressure.
Some can handle it better than others.
		
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but is obviously not the same, are you saying that a putt to win the monthly medal has the same amount of pressure on it than to win the Open. You are saying someone standing on your foot in trainers and someone standing on your foot in stilettos is the same because they both exert pressure, whereas we know in simple physics that the stiletto will exert a lot more pressure than the trainer.

If you have placed more personal interest in winning an event, for instance a major or even ryder cup then the pressure to win will be higher than a simple tour event


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			The caddies are employed by the players. They should be the ones looking after them.
		
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Hopefully the other 2 people who have made exactly the same point as you read my response. 

What about the players not making the cut, how do they pay their caddies? These players have been essential to the concept of the traditional tour weekend - effectively many leave the event having made a financial loss. Why couldn’t the tours have a financial protection plan in place for these guys so they can make sure their caddies get paid, something LIV ensure for those players at the bottom of the prize payout. 

And all the while, the PGA Tour have been making huge tax free ‘profit’ - which they’ve then spent some of - presumably to help keep the tax man away from their door, on jet fuel and airport landing fees for the commissioners wife. 

Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Slab said:



			Of course the players can/should give their caddies a better financial deal but that in itself doesn’t address all the caddie issues or absolve the Tour from doing their part

We’ve all read stories about caddies not permitted access xyz clubhouse or cant eat in same place as players, cant get a lift to the course etc. Things all totally withing the remit of the Tour to correct.
Also Tour/s insist that caddies wear advertising at each event without any payment by disguising it as a 'condition of the Players entry' to the tournament that their caddy wears the supplied ‘uniform’

Yes Players can/should do more but make no mistake the Tour can/should do more too
		
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The players could have also solve this, if they just stood up and said the caddies will eat with us, get entry to the clubhouse etc it would have happen. The course want to host the events and so the players have an enormous say, if things were like this and didn't change for years we can presume that the players didn't care enough to force a change


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

BrianM said:



			The pressure is the same, it’s how you handle that pressure.
Some can handle it better than others.
		
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It takes some doing, but I think this is a contender for the stupidest comment ever made on this thread. Or, if I put it more politely, most naïve


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Hopefully the other 2 people who have made exactly the same point as you read my response.

What about the players not making the cut, how do they pay their caddies? These players have been essential to the concept of the traditional tour weekend - effectively many leave the event having made a financial loss. Why couldn’t the tours have a financial protection plan in place for these guys so they can make sure their caddies get paid, something LIV ensure for those players at the bottom of the prize payout.

And all the while, the PGA Tour have been making huge tax free ‘profit’ - which they’ve then spent some of - presumably to help keep the tax man away from their door, on jet fuel and airport landing fees for the commissioners wife.

Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work.
		
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Your reply is still nonsense, the players who employed the caddies could have at any point given the caddies a guaranteed salary, perks, etc regardless of whether they made the cut, this was always within their gift. 

*"Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work."*

well is kind of does, do you expect someone who is not your employer to compensate you for work you do for your employer? A caddy is an employee of the player, when they start work they can negotiate there work terms, if the players wanted to they could make them comfortable. Why should the tour pay the caddies, do you think the Premier league should pay the kit men of the premier league teams, or the WBO pay for the boxers seconds?


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			To all who replied to my post about interest in the tours, the point I was making (in too subtle a way it would appear) was that there has been a huge amount of verbiage posted about LIV, most of it from the same half dozen or so posters making the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

And over and over and over



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Imagine how many posts they’ve made & how much time they spend obsessing over LIV 😬
You can bet their FB & Twitter is full of it aswell.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Hopefully the other 2 people who have made exactly the same point as you read my response.

What about the players not making the cut, how do they pay their caddies? These players have been essential to the concept of the traditional tour weekend - effectively many leave the event having made a financial loss. Why couldn’t the tours have a financial protection plan in place for these guys so they can make sure their caddies get paid, something LIV ensure for those players at the bottom of the prize payout.

And all the while, the PGA Tour have been making huge tax free ‘profit’ - which they’ve then spent some of - presumably to help keep the tax man away from their door, on jet fuel and airport landing fees for the commissioners wife.

Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work.
		
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Should the PGA Tour also pay the players coaching staff, dieticians, physios, gardeners, etc? 

Maybe the caddies would prefer it if they were simply guaranteed a fee of say, $5,000 per tournament. They are guaranteed that money if the player misses the cut. However, they still only get that money if the player wins.

Would you support that? Would the tour then be treating caddies like humans? Or, is this another LIV type argument where you want not just the golfers to have their cake and eat it, you want the same for caddies now as well? And, while you want players and caddies to be richly rewarded, you still have not bothered to put your hand in your pocket to pay for a Sky subscription to watch the PGA Tour events. Perhaps if you and others paid for a subscription, the PGA could have paid out lots of money to caddies at every event. If that is what you want as a fan.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			To all who replied to my post about interest in the tours, the point I was making (in too subtle a way it would appear) was that there has been a huge amount of verbiage posted about LIV, most of it from the same half dozen or so posters making the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

And over and over and over



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And this adds to the conversation how?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Imagine how many posts they’ve made & how much time they spend obsessing over LIV 😬
You can bet their FB & Twitter is full of it aswell.
		
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And another one who doesn’t seem to be interested in the subject but feels the need to pop in and make sarcastic remarks.


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## Slab (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			The players could have also solve this, if they just stood up and said the caddies will eat with us, get entry to the clubhouse etc it would have happen. The course want to host the events and so the players have an enormous say, if things were like this and didn't change for years we can presume that the players didn't care enough to force a change
		
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vive la revolution?

You have to wonder then if it was that easy why the current/past greats of the game never did it. 
I suspect its only easy on paper and the reality is that 'player power' wouldn't get their employees a reimbursement for the unpaid advertising; maybe it was the Tour itself that barred the caddies from certain places rather than the course

Regardless, the Tour is the Payers and the players are the Tour but its still a problem for caddies


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Of course pressure isn't just pressure.

For instant having a 3 foot for eagle you will feel some pressure, having a 3 foot put to win a match you will feel more pressure, having a 3 footer to win the Open will be much much more pressure
		
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So pressure is pressure regardless of the situation - some handle it and control it better. 

Next


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The caddies aren’t employed by the PGAT - they are employed by the player , it’s up to the player to look after his caddy not the tour

A lot of the talk in regards LiV was about the players being “independent contractors” yet now people want caddies etc to be paid employees?

So which is it ? Is everyone an independent contractors who get paid by their performance or are they paid employees ?

And what Monahan does is irrelevant- I’m guessing you don’t have an issue with GN getting £30mil a year
		
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It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well. 

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Slab said:



			Of course the players can/should give their caddies a better financial deal but that in itself doesn’t address all the caddie issues or absolve the Tour from doing their part

We’ve all read stories about caddies not permitted access xyz clubhouse or cant eat in same place as players, cant get a lift to the course etc. Things all totally withing the remit of the Tour to correct.
Also Tour/s insist that caddies wear advertising at each event without any payment by disguising it as a 'condition of the Players entry' to the tournament that their caddy wears the supplied ‘uniform’

Yes Players can/should do more but make no mistake the Tour can/should do more too
		
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That answer doesn't suit some agendas. 

The haters won't buy it. 🤭🤭🤭


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Slab said:



			vive la revolution?

You have to wonder then if it was that easy why the current/past greats of the game never did it.
I suspect its only easy on paper and the reality is that 'player power' wouldn't get their employees a reimbursement for the unpaid advertising; maybe it was the Tour itself that barred the caddies from certain places rather than the course

Regardless, the Tour is the Payers and the players are the Tour but its still a problem for caddies
		
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It is easy, if it hasn't been done before then we can infer that the players did not care enough, just like they didn't care enough to ensure caddies were given enough money if they didn't make the cut etc.

This wasn't an issue for most of the time, it has only really come to light since LIV where they have tried to use it as a PR point to make them seem better. Fact is, at any point over many decades, if the players really wanted to they could have made things a lot better for their caddies but decided not to


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best
		
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When you say PGA events do you mean the PGAT won't let them or the clubs that are hosting?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not just up to the player - lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities. This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best
		
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“Haters will hate” - is about as childish and immature as you can get 

Can you tell me how many players over the last couple of decades have said anything about where caddies are allowed to go within clubhouses ? 

Has any player or caddy ever complained about where they eat or change ? Is it not up to who employs the caddy to sort those issues out. If a player isn’t happy with the way his caddy is treated what has he done about it - did he ask the tour if his caddy can sit with him when eating ?

The biggest talking about in regards caddies over the last 5/10 years was when Kuchar didn’t “pay” the caddy enough when he won.

Why haven’t the players taken more care of the people they employ ? Why haven’t they raised their concerns ?


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			So pressure is pressure regardless of the situation - some handle it and control it better.

Next
		
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absolutely nonsense. amount of pressure will vary wildly like in any situation in life. I cannot understand how you are not getting this


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not just up to the player - *lot's of PGA event's won't allow caddies in the clubhouse, players locker rooms, access to suitable changing and washing facilities.* This isn't about the player bunging his looper an extra couple of quid because he read lines well.

As I say and I'll say again haters will hate like your ignorance has proven once again.

GM forum at it's best
		
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That bit isn't good. I remember seeing one tournament when there was a bad weather suspension to play, the caddies had to all huddle into one small tent. As they say, the optics weren't good!


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

So, hands up. Who would like to be a caddy for a player on the PGA Tour? Not just for any of the elite golfers, but a caddy for nearly any of the PGA Tour members? I'm pretty sure Brooks Koepka's caddy isn't feeling hard done by in any respect, apart from the small issue he has to hang about with Brooks Koepka I suppose.

I've no idea what any of you do for a living, but I bet most of these caddies earn more than we could ever dream of. I'd also say it would be a lovely, pleasant job to have, in comparison to many other types of job. Caddies also have a longer career at the "top", compared to the players, and they can caddy for several players over their career.

Sure, if there are individual events were they are being treated poorly for some unknown reason, that is not good. However, I'm sure if their employers, the players, cared enough about it then they would speak out, and whoever was responsible would look to sort it out asap. If nothing gets done about it, it suggests it really isn't that big a deal.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			absolutely nonsense. amount of pressure will vary wildly like in any situation in life. I cannot understand how you are not getting this
		
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Pressure is pressure my friend. It cannot be measured as some handle it better than other - to quote you I cannot understand how you are not getting this!!!


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## Beezerk (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haters will hate 😂😂 - it’s like being in primary school if that’s the sort of childish responses that happen now
		
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Well it’s sort of half true isn’t it, the phrase should actually read “trolls will hate” let’s face it, this thread has been full of wind up merchant trolls for the past few days since the last LIV event.
Just makes them look stupid and bitter in my neutral eyes.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Pressure is pressure my friend. It cannot be measured as some handle it better than other - to quote you I cannot understand how you are not getting this!!!
		
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so you think

someone putting to win the monthly medal is under exactly the same amount of pressure as someone standing over a putt to win The Open and the only difference is how that person handles it? That is all I can infer from your posts, anyone can see though that it complete rubbish.

It may not be possible to accurately quantify the "amount" of pressure someone is under, but every one can give a qualified experience of when they have felt more pressure dependent on factors.


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## Aztecs27 (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, hands up. Who would like to be a caddy for a player on the PGA Tour? Not just for any of the elite golfers, but a caddy for nearly any of the PGA Tour members? I'm pretty sure Brooks Koepka's caddy isn't feeling hard done by in any respect, apart from the small issue he has to hang about with Brooks Koepka I suppose.

I've no idea what any of you do for a living, but I bet most of these caddies earn more than we could ever dream of. I'd also say it would be a lovely, pleasant job to have, in comparison to many other types of job. Caddies also have a longer career at the "top", compared to the players, and they can caddy for several players over their career.

Sure, if there are individual events were they are being treated poorly for some unknown reason, that is not good. However, I'm sure if their employers, the players, cared enough about it then they would speak out, and whoever was responsible would look to sort it out asap. If nothing gets done about it, it suggests it really isn't that big a deal.
		
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I'd do it at the drop of a hat if I was any good. 

Funny how the world class caddies who have no issue getting a bag haven't complained? (i.e. Billy Foster) If you're good at your job, your employer will succeed, and if they succeed, so will you. 

Unless you're employed by an absolute bawbag who doesn't pay you a fair share of his/her winnings.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			“Haters will hate” - is about as childish and immature as you can get

Can you tell me how many players over the last couple of decades have said anything about where caddies are allowed to go within clubhouses ?

Has any player or caddy ever complained about where they eat or change ? Is it not up to who employs the caddy to sort those issues out. If a player isn’t happy with the way his caddy is treated what has he done about it - did he ask the tour if his caddy can sit with him when eating ?

The biggest talking about in regards caddies over the last 5/10 years was when Kuchar didn’t “pay” the caddy enough when he won.

Why haven’t the players taken more care of the people they employ ? Why haven’t they raised their concerns ?
		
Click to expand...

That's twice you've tried that pathetic line and twice you've failed to get a bite or a reaction. Try again dor a third or give up.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			so you think

someone putting to win the monthly medal is under exactly the same amount of pressure as someone standing over a putt to win The Open and the only difference is how that person handles it? That is all I can infer from your posts, anyone can see though that it complete rubbish.

It may not be possible to accurately quantify the "amount" of pressure someone is under, but every one can give a qualified experience of when they have felt more pressure dependent on factors.
		
Click to expand...

How often people put themselves in pressure situations depends on the individual. Also who knows if they have a putt to win a medal when there are still players on the course and you more than likely don't know what other scores have came in while you are on the course. 

So I see right through your flawed argument/scenario.

Putting to won the Open - plenty of examples of people who couldn't close the door. Plenty of examples of people who have handled the pressure better. 

Big Monty is a classic example with his horrendous swing during the US Open.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Your reply is still nonsense, the players who employed the caddies could have at any point given the caddies a guaranteed salary, perks, etc regardless of whether they made the cut, this was always within their gift.

*"Just because the players employ the caddies, it doesn’t mean the tours couldn’t have ensured those caddies were properly financially remunerated for their work."*

well is kind of does, do you expect someone who is not your employer to compensate you for work you do for your employer? A caddy is an employee of the player, when they start work they can negotiate there work terms, if the players wanted to they could make them comfortable. Why should the tour pay the caddies, do you think the Premier league should pay the kit men of the premier league teams, or the WBO pay for the boxers seconds?
		
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And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!


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## Slab (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It is easy, if it hasn't been done before then we can infer that the players did not care enough, just like they didn't care enough to ensure caddies were given enough money if they didn't make the cut etc.

*This wasn't an issue for most of the time,* it has only really come to light since LIV where they have tried to use it as a PR point to make them seem better. Fact is, at any point over many decades, if the players really wanted to they could have made things a lot better for their caddies but decided not to
		
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I think its pretty much always been an issues for the caddies, not so much for the players and the Tours (& most of the public (us) are pretty meh about it too) 
Nonetheless its a 'negative' within the sport that LIV saw as a quick win and grabbed it (who can blame them for that) 

Caddy grievances I read about fall into two areas, those under the direct control of the player and those under the direct control of the Tour 

We both agree that Players have direct control over the pay (& some caddies are very well paid while others live a leaner existence) 
We both agree (I think) that the Tour has direct control over other grievances, like restricted access and unpaid advertising. 
You suggest that if they cared enough then players could stage a protest as a way to bring about improvement/change for their employees for these other grievances (and exert an indirect control)

All I’m saying is why shouldn’t the Tour (having direct control of those areas) be held accountable to address this without the need for a player protest? 

I don’t think either of us want to see PGAT players having to threaten to go on strike for these kind of things to be sorted (& I don't think it would garner the necessary support from current pgat players either)
The caddies have taken/are taking (?) the pgat tour to court over the advertising issue in recent years but I've not looked on how that's progressing


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			How often people put themselves in pressure situations depends on the individual. Also who knows if they have a putt to win a medal when there are still players on the course and you more than likely don't know what other scores have came in while you are on the course.

So I see right through your flawed argument/scenario.

Putting to won the Open - plenty of examples of people who couldn't close the door. Plenty of examples of people who have handled the pressure better.

Big Monty is a classic example with his horrendous swing during the US Open.
		
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You are confusing two very different things.

The better you are, the more chance you will put yourself in pressure situations, and therefore be better at performing under pressure. I.e. Michael Jordan was fantastic in high pressure situations of scoring when the team needed to. I am not denying that some people are less effected by pressure.

This is completely different to your argument that all pressure is the same. Monty had faced pressure all his career, Ryder Cup, numerous Tour wins all would have been pressure situations and yet he overcame them time after time. However the US Open was more pressure, not only do majors create more pressure but that fact that Monty had been close many time before and never won before made even more pressure for him. Ergo not all pressure is the same, this was MORE pressure than he normally faced.

Also see Tom Watson in the 2009 Open, if he was in that situation in a Seniors Major or a run of the mill tournament would he have chipped so badly to leave an 8 footer to win, and would he have missed that 8 foot putt. The fact is that the putt to win the Open creates a lot more pressure than other scenarios.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!
		
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Your comment is laughable

you still haven't stated why the tour should pay caddies, they are after all employed by the players. 

I am happy to see caddies getting a better deal, what I was pointing out is that Brooks in any point in his career could have unilaterally decided to give his caddy better pay and work conditions, he never did. But now that LIV are paying he is pushing the fact that caddies are better looked after is great. If it was so great why did he never do it when he was on the PGAT and it was completely in his gift to do so. It's plain hypocrisy


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Slab said:



			I think its pretty much always been an issues for the caddies, not so much for the players and the Tours (& most of the public (us) are pretty meh about it too)
Nonetheless its a 'negative' within the sport that LIV saw as a quick win and grabbed it (who can blame them for that)

Caddy grievances I read about fall into two areas, those under the direct control of the player and those under the direct control of the Tour

We both agree that Players have direct control over the pay (& some caddies are very well paid while others live a leaner existence)
We both agree (I think) that the Tour has direct control over other grievances, like restricted access and unpaid advertising.
You suggest that if they cared enough then players could stage a protest as a way to bring about improvement/change for their employees for these other grievances (and exert an indirect control)

All I’m saying is why shouldn’t the Tour (having direct control of those areas) be held accountable to address this without the need for a player protest?

I don’t think either of us want to see PGAT players having to threaten to go on strike for these kind of things to be sorted (& I don't think it would garner the necessary support from current pgat players either)
The caddies have taken/are taking (?) the pgat tour to court over the advertising issue in recent years but I've not looked on how that's progressing
		
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to appear belligerent. Of course the Tour could have stepped in, and we have no idea why they didn't.

I was just saying that if it was such an issue, then the caddies I imagine would have been complaining to the players, so why didn't the players do anything.

I can only assume that caddies were not that bothered by it as they simply accepted it as part of their job


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			That's twice you've tried that pathetic line and twice you've failed to get a bite or a reaction. Try again dor a third or give up.
		
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There is no attempt to get a bite - I would hope an expect a grown man to not use those sort of phrases - but I guess it seems your go to which helps you dismiss anyone relevant counter points


Mel Smooth said:



			And yet LIV make sure the caddies are well looked after - again - there’s no reason why the other tours couldn’t have done this, and indeed - they’ve now introduced payments to players to help with exactly this on the PGA tour, an acknowledgment by themselves of where they are now falling short.

This forum is brilliant, Brooks Koepka comments on how LIV ensures caddies are well cared for, *and the usual suspects try to use it as an opportunity to knock down LIV or one of the players. *If you take time to read his comments, he’s not even talking about the financial aspect, he’s talking about the way they are treated as people in comparison to the PGA tour!!
		
Click to expand...

Can you see how blinkered you are towards LIV

In response to the caddy issue all I can see people question is the players - can’t see anyone “knock down LIV” over it but I can see people asking why the players haven’t done anything about it when they are the ones that employ the caddy ?

So can you answer why Koepka didn’t say anything about the treatment of caddies when he was playing on the PGAT ? If they were treated so badly why was nothing said by all the players ? 

In fact any players autobiography I have read they don’t mention how poor their caddies are treated ? In fact some talk about how much of a laugh they have on your


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 20, 2022)

Question

Presidents Cup has been heavily effected by the Liv v PGAT divide which is a shame. 

Which international team do we think is stronger

ROTW TEAM. 
Hideki Matsuyama
Sungjae Im
Tom Kim
Corey Conners
Adam Scott
K.H. Lee
Mito Pereira
Sebastian Munoz
Cameron Davis
Christiaan Bezuidenhout
SI Woo Kim
Taylor Pendrith


LIV ROTW TEAM

Smith
Niemann, 
Ancer
Lahiri
Oosthuizen
Leishman
Schwartzel
Grace
Ortiz
Jones
Kaewkanjana
Khongwatmai


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			You are confusing two very different things.

The better you are, the more chance you will put yourself in pressure situations, and therefore be better at performing under pressure. I.e. Michael Jordan was fantastic in high pressure situations of scoring when the team needed to. I am not denying that some people are less effected by pressure.

This is completely different to your argument that all pressure is the same. Monty had faced pressure all his career, Ryder Cup, numerous Tour wins all would have been pressure situations and yet he overcame them time after time. However the US Open was more pressure, not only do majors create more pressure but that fact that Monty had been close many time before and never won before made even more pressure for him. Ergo not all pressure is the same, this was MORE pressure than he normally faced.

Also see Tom Watson in the 2009 Open, if he was in that situation in a Seniors Major or a run of the mill tournament would he have chipped so badly to leave an 8 footer to win, and would he have missed that 8 foot putt. The fact is that the putt to win the Open creates a lot more pressure than other scenarios.
		
Click to expand...

The fact is pressure is pressure and it effects people differently. That is the fact. What one person sees as pressure can be a bread and butter situation to someone else.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no attempt to get a bite - I would hope an expect a grown man to not use those sort of phrases - but I guess it seems your go to which helps you dismiss anyone relevant counter points


Can you see how blinkered you are towards LIV

In response to the caddy issue all I can see people question is the players - can’t see anyone “knock down LIV” over it but I can see people asking why the players haven’t done anything about it when they are the ones that employ the caddy ?

So can you answer why Koepka didn’t say anything about the treatment of caddies when he was playing on the PGAT ? If they were treated so badly why was nothing said by all the players ?

In fact any players autobiography I have read they don’t mention how poor their caddies are treated ? In fact some talk about how much of a laugh they have on your
		
Click to expand...

Lol. No I can’t answer why Brooks didn’t say anything Phil, but I can tell you this, the caddies at LIV are better cared for on all fronts.

You wanting to blame that on the player is akin to me blaming bad building site conditions for my labourer on a big site I’m working on, on myself, rather than the man responsible for running the site.

It ain’t me that’s blinkered mate.


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## Crow (Sep 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			And this adds to the conversation how?
		
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It adds as much as 90% or more of the rest of the posts.

And I don't think "conversation" applies to this thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol. No I can’t answer why Brooks didn’t say anything Phil, but I can tell you this, the caddies at LIV are better cared for on all fronts.

You wanting to blame that on the player is akin to me blaming bad building site conditions for my labourer on a big site I’m working on, on myself, rather than the man responsible for running the site.

It ain’t me that’s blinkered mate.
		
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I’m not that interested in the caddies at the end of the day - I watch golf for the golfers and not the person the golfer has picked to carry their bag.

Let’s be honest you never cared about caddy welfare and are using what LIV are doing as a point scoring exercise towards the PGA - as opposed to be concerned about how the caddy is treated.

Players are in prime position to look after their caddy - they employ the caddy to work for them not the tour hence why if a player plays on a different tour the caddy goes with them.

It’s not about apportioning “blame” when there is no issue - there is only perceived issue being created by LIV as some sort of commercial exercise

Can you think of any caddy that has complained about their working conditions



Crow said:



			It adds as much as 90% or more of the rest of the posts.

And I don't think "conversation" applies to this thread.
		
Click to expand...

I can never understand why if someone has an issue with a thread or what’s being said in the thread why they continue to read it and post in it 🤷‍♂️

If there is a thread I don’t like then I just don’t bother reading it 🤷‍♂️


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## BrianM (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It takes some doing, but I think this is a contender for the stupidest comment ever made on this thread. Or, if I put it more politely, most naïve 

Click to expand...

One thing I’m not, is stupid, not sure why you felt the need to personally insult me on a golf forum.
Sadly this says a lot more about you than me.
In future, I’d appreciate if you could stay away from the personal attacks.


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## Crow (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can never understand why if someone has an issue with a thread or what’s being said in the thread why they continue to read it and post in it 🤷‍♂️

If there is a thread I don’t like then I just don’t bother reading it 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I am mildly interested in LIV, but I don't want to read the same old  over and over again, can you not understand that at least?

I drop into this thread now and again to see what's going on, but to make sure I've not missed anything interesting I'd need to read umpteen pages of schoolyard squabbles. 
I don't have an interest in that, hence my frustration with the way so many threads here go.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not that interested in the caddies at the end of the day - I watch golf for the golfers and not the person the golfer has picked to carry their bag.

Let’s be honest you never cared about caddy welfare and are using what LIV are doing as a point scoring exercise towards the PGA - as opposed to be concerned about how the caddy is treated.

Players are in prime position to look after their caddy - they employ the caddy to work for them not the tour hence why if a player plays on a different tour the caddy goes with them.

It’s not about apportioning “blame” when there is no issue - there is only perceived issue being created by LIV as some sort of commercial exercise

Can you think of any caddy that has complained about their working conditions
		
Click to expand...

So LIV looking after caddies isn’t an issue because you don’t want it to highlight that the PGA tour, don’t do the same or ensure the players can and do? 

Hilarious. 


On your second point, I once bought some clubs off a guy who’s dad had caddied and they used to jump out of guesthouse / hotel windows to avoid paying the bill. Obviously conditions have improved since then, and guess what, they’ve just taken another step forwards in the last few months, thanks to you know what.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

BrianM said:



			One thing I’m not, is stupid, not sure why you felt the need to personally insult me on a golf forum.
Sadly this says a lot more about you than me.
In future, I’d appreciate if you could stay away from the personal attacks.
		
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I didn't call you stupid at all, so don't get offended. I said your comment was stupid. Some of the most intelligent people on the planet sometimes say silly things, so don't worry about it.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			That's twice you've tried that pathetic line and twice you've failed to get a bite or a reaction. Try again dor a third or give up.
		
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Ohh the irony, informing someone they have failed to get a bite or a reaction with their comment, by reacting directly to that comment


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

To sum up this thread:

 - the PGA tour is terrible and has always been. As such the players have had to leave to get paid enough.
 - the PGA tour is great because the players are paid well and there is more competition on that tour
 - Saudi is evil and therefore so is LIV
 - The PGA tour plays in China and is sponsored by companies who trade in with evil regimes, and is therefore evil as well
 - the caddies are looked after better on LIV and there is a nice plane
 - LIV is just a pre-retirement tour
 - LIV has a team aspect which is great
 - LIV has a team element that is crap
 - certain players are joining LIV
 - oh no they aren't

ad nauseum

Anything else?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			To sum up this thread:

- the PGA tour is terrible and has always been. As such the players have had to leave to get paid enough.
- the PGA tour is great because the players are paid well and there is more competition on that tour
- Saudi is evil and therefore so is LIV
- The PGA tour plays in China and is sponsored by companies who trade in with evil regimes, and is therefore evil as well
- the caddies are looked after better on LIV and there is a nice plane
- LIV is just a pre-retirement tour
- LIV has a team aspect which is great
- LIV has a team element that is crap
- certain players are joining LIV
- oh no they aren't

ad nauseum

Anything else?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, some recent ones:

-pressure is pressure
-there are different levels of pressure


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Ohh the irony, informing someone they have failed to get a bite or a reaction with their comment, by reacting directly to that comment 

Click to expand...

Irony - indeed. Go and get yourself a wee ice cream as a treat.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Irony - indeed. Go and get yourself a wee ice cream as a treat.
		
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Cheers. Send me your address and I'll post you the invoice.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			The fact is pressure is pressure and it effects people differently. That is the fact. What one person sees as pressure can be a bread and butter situation to someone else.
		
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that is akin to saying that the common cold and ebola is the same, diseases are diseases after all and some people's immune system can handle it, and others can't


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Seems some of the LiV boys have signed a letter to Peter Dawson uncle Greg has had written for them.


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, some recent ones:

-pressure is pressure
-there are different levels of pressure
		
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 - PGA tour ropes are safer


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## PieMan (Sep 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			To sum up this thread:

- the PGA tour is terrible and has always been. As such the players have had to leave to get paid enough.
- the PGA tour is great because the players are paid well and there is more competition on that tour
- Saudi is evil and therefore so is LIV
- The PGA tour plays in China and is sponsored by companies who trade in with evil regimes, and is therefore evil as well
- the caddies are looked after better on LIV and there is a nice plane
- LIV is just a pre-retirement tour
- LIV has a team aspect which is great
- LIV has a team element that is crap
- certain players are joining LIV
- oh no they aren't

ad nauseum

Anything else?
		
Click to expand...

You missed out YouTube is a brilliant platform for viewing LIV; YouTube is a crap platform for viewing LIV.


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## GB72 (Sep 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			To sum up this thread:

- the PGA tour is terrible and has always been. As such the players have had to leave to get paid enough.
- the PGA tour is great because the players are paid well and there is more competition on that tour
- Saudi is evil and therefore so is LIV
- The PGA tour plays in China and is sponsored by companies who trade in with evil regimes, and is therefore evil as well
- the caddies are looked after better on LIV and there is a nice plane
- LIV is just a pre-retirement tour
- LIV has a team aspect which is great
- LIV has a team element that is crap
- certain players are joining LIV
- oh no they aren't

ad nauseum

Anything else?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, pretty much sums it up. Actually one of those things where I wish that both sides could lose and a third option game forward as the pinacle of golfing competion as I have found the behavior of pretty much everyone involved in this whole debacle pretty disagreeable and cringeworthy. The solution when this started all those months ago would have been pretty simple, negotiate and grant releases for a few players to play a set number of LIV events each year with agreements on who could play what and perhaps with reciprocal agreements that those playing LIV events maybe agree to play one of the smaller PGA events in exchange to boost the appeal of that tournament. LIV agrees not to expand the fields and even maybe include some up an coming pros so they have experience and a bit of a name when they hit the PGA Tour and they agree to a contract whereby participation cannot be at the expense of certain events. Instead, we get this. Aside from the Sportswashing elememt (which seems to be ignored in so many other sports because it is not challenging the current elite body) I have an equally poor view of the PGA Tour, DP Tour (which could not look more like the PGA tour's puppy if it tried) and LIV.


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## rksquire (Sep 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Question

Presidents Cup has been heavily effected by the Liv v PGAT divide which is a shame.

Which international team do we think is stronger

ROTW TEAM.
Hideki Matsuyama
Sungjae Im
Tom Kim
Corey Conners
Adam Scott
K.H. Lee
Mito Pereira
Sebastian Munoz
Cameron Davis
Christiaan Bezuidenhout
SI Woo Kim
Taylor Pendrith


LIV ROTW TEAM

Smith
Niemann,
Ancer
Lahiri
Oosthuizen
Leishman
Schwartzel
Grace
Ortiz
Jones
Kaewkanjana
Khongwatmai
		
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The LIV ROTW TEAM is stronger generally, but the margin isn't that great just yet.... however, the USA team remains very strong, it definitely isn't as badly affected so far by LIV.  But you never know, in the face of adversity etc., the ROTW team may pull of a miracle.  If it's a USA dominant performance I think that will only increase the noise of the selection of LIV players for the other international teams going forward.  It would be a shame for these events to be overshadowed by the golfing powerplay but it does seem that is inevitable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Crow said:



			I am mildly interested in LIV, but I don't want to read the same old  over and over again, can you not understand that at least?

I drop into this thread now and again to see what's going on, but to make sure I've not missed anything interesting I'd need to read umpteen pages of schoolyard squabbles.
I don't have an interest in that, hence my frustration with the way so many threads here go.
		
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There are a lot of good stuff in the thread in regards the differences and issues etc - as with a lot of “hot topics” there can be repeats etc 



Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV looking after caddies isn’t an issue because you don’t want it to highlight that the PGA tour, don’t do the same or ensure the players can and do?

Hilarious.
		
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Im not sure what you are reading so I’ll clarify 

Up until LIV arrived not one single player or caddy spoke about how they were “mistreated”

The caddy issue is being used as a tool to point score against the PGAT as opposed imo being concerned about the caddy welfare 

LIV can throw money at anything - giving caddies more money is a quick win - straight away it creates this apparent issue that caddies are being mistreated and underpaid - imo that’s a false narrative and it’s a tool being used by LIV to have “one up ship “ against the PGAT 

It’s the same with giving players money when they miss a cut - it’s fine when a tour has a bottomless pit of money to throw around at everything and anything , not every tour has that luxury 

I’m not going to praise an entity for giving more money to a lot of people who are already being paid very well.

But ultimately that’s is the core “solution” behind everything LIV do - give more money 

Higher prize fund
Guarenteed multi millions regardless of performance 
Players being part of a “team” and getting paid multi millions off the back of others playing well 

Money in golf before LIV was sickening for many - for them to come along and just offer even more for many is disgusting. And I’m certainly not going to be sympathetic to millionaires and many of those caddies are 




			On your second point, I once bought some clubs off a guy who’s dad had caddied and they used to jump out of guesthouse / hotel windows to avoid paying the bill. Obviously conditions have improved since then, and guess what, they’ve just taken another step forwards in the last few months, thanks to you know what.
		
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So all the tour caddies out there are that destitute they can’t pay hotel bills 🤦‍♂️  - sorry I don’t believe that by any stretch for any caddy that is on the bag of someone who is playing regular pro golf on both of the main tours


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Seems some of the LiV boys have signed a letter to Peter Dawson uncle Greg has had written for them.
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572228587604037639
it’s pretty embarrassing tbh 

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening 

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation 

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences 

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ? 

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down 

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler


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## Sports_Fanatic (Sep 20, 2022)

I haven't watched any LIV and really not interested but thought I'd take a look at this thread given the number of posts.

On the caddie point, in fairness they did try to sue the PGA tour 5 years back potentially over advertising on bibs and general view they didn't get respected as not allowed in clubhouses etc. Obviously if you get a good player they do very well, Lord has earnt millions but I expect it's not that easy outside top 100. 100th in 21 won $1.2m so caddie $120k based on 10% - taxes and yearly travel expenses including accommodation suggests it wouldn't be the wealthiest career.


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## Imurg (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572228587604037639
it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler
		
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But then they'd have to call themselves LLXXII (LEXI) ...does sound a bit sexier though..


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But ultimately that’s is the core “solution” behind everything LIV do - give more money

Higher prize fund
Guarenteed multi millions regardless of performance
Players being part of a “team” and getting paid multi millions off the back of others playing well

*Money in golf before LIV was sickening for many - for them to come along and just offer even more for many is disgusting. And I’m certainly not going to be sympathetic to millionaires and many of those caddies are*



So all the tour caddies out there are that destitute they can’t pay hotel bills 🤦‍♂️  - sorry I don’t believe that by any stretch for any caddy that is on the bag of someone who is playing regular pro golf on both of the main tours
		
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I agree with this, but would at least add that the money players (and caddies) received before LIV was at least "earned" by the sport they play. The success of the sport allowed huge broadcasting deals and sponsorship, and therefore a lot of this money went the players way. Sure, if people compare their income to nurses, police, etc. they could fall into the argument that the golfers get a sickening amount of money. However, when looking at it from a business point of view, they are earning the money that fans and sponsors ultimately throw their way, so in that sense it is deserved (like any other good business model).

The issue with LIV is that this money the players are earning is no longer directly based on the interest they drum up. It is simply the fact that Saudi Arabia have chosen to invest billions just to get it off the ground. That sort of money is not sustainable through the golf itself, so it is little different to Elon Musk offering Bryson De Chambeau and a few others £500 million to quit the PGA Tour and play at his local course, and putting the coverage on youTube. If Saudi Arabia decided to quit investing in LIV, there wouldn't be LIV. Once it starts to become sustainable, then I'm sure there would be more positive feedback on it, obviously as many more fans would buy into it. I still struggle to see how it will get there though. Sure, it has attracted some top players. However, you can't discount the top players that have all but ruled out ever going to LIV. So, at best I can only ever see LIV ever drumming up similar interest to a minor PGA event that has a few top players. And, as LIV fans keep telling us, these types of events are not that popular anyway, not in comparison to the Majors.


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## IainP (Sep 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And what is creating the interest?
99% of the chat about LIV is about money, defections, SA, points, money, GN, money, shotgun starts, money......
Barely anything about the golf itself...
There's been more interest in Bryson and the rope than whoever won at the weekend..
*Doesn't that suggest that the actual golf isn't that interesting?*

Click to expand...

Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.


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## BrianM (Sep 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.
		
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Couldn‘t of put it better myself Iain.


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## PieMan (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572228587604037639
it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler
		
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Anyone know what font BdC signs his name in? The guy is indeed a machine!!!


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## IainP (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572228587604037639
it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

*Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down*

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler
		
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Agree with a fair bit of that. Couple of thoughts  - if it is such an "open & shut case", why not write back in a few days saying so? Maybe take a few more days and outline things to focus on. 
I've seen the owgr items referred to as "guidelines" and as "rules". Not sure which is accurate.
There is a bit of a sense that the owgr may be a bit like the committee member who allowed some dates to slip in a few knockout ties, once compromises are made then door opens for more, & bigger, asks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.
		
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when everything is stripped back it’s still just golf and the players playing are going to play some great golf shots and rounds that IMO should be highlighted in the 2022 thread 

I haven’t seen much of the shots beyond what’s shared on social media but then that’s the same with PGAT comps - beyond the big ones watching in the evening just doesn’t work 

But I love seeing stunning golf shots and there are playing on LIV that will produce them - like the eagle from DJ the other week , that’s are great as Willets shot around the tree or Bob Macs great final round 



IainP said:



			Agree with a fair bit of that. Couple of thoughts  - if it is such an "open & shut case", why not write back in a few days saying so? Maybe take a few more days and outline things to focus on.
I've seen the owgr items referred to as "guidelines" and as "rules". Not sure which is accurate.
There is a bit of a sense that the owgr may be a bit like the committee member who allowed some dates to slip in a few knockout ties, once compromises are made then door opens for more, & bigger, asks.
		
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I think once they have the year out of the way then it’s going to be addressed and believe LIV should have known the timeline but we are only hearing LIV side etc - I doubt the OWGR have ever had to address things publicly because all the other tours work within the guidelines 

Hence why I think a lot of the issues lay at the arrogance of Greg Norman- he is one of the biggest issues , there is no doubt he imo has made loads of promises to players that he didn’t confirm before hand.


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## IainP (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			when everything is stripped back it’s still just golf and the players playing are going to play some great golf shots and rounds that IMO should be highlighted in the 2022 thread

I haven’t seen much of the shots beyond what’s shared on social media but then that’s the same with PGAT comps - beyond the big ones watching in the evening just doesn’t work

But I love seeing stunning golf shots and there are playing on LIV that will produce them - like the eagle from DJ the other week , that’s are great as Willets shot around the tree or Bob Macs great final round



I think once they have the year out of the way then it’s going to be addressed and believe LIV should have known the timeline but we are only hearing LIV side etc - I doubt the OWGR have ever had to address things publicly because all the other tours work within the guidelines

Hence why I think a lot of the issues lay at the arrogance of Greg Norman- he is one of the biggest issues , there is no doubt he imo has made loads of promises to players that he didn’t confirm before hand.
		
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👍 did this one pop up?
Phil (M) being Phil
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-cart-path-shot-liv-golf-video
Both "villans" Reed & Garcia played very well on last day.
Cam had a number of recoveries, which probably aren't a surprise any more. Plus his attitude on last putt, not taking two because he could.

GN & team were always going to try to use media, player & fans to push the agenda  - it isn't pretty I agree. Just think the OWGR have left themselves open unnecessarily when it was in their gift to not do so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

IainP said:



			👍 did this one pop up?
Phil (M) being Phil
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-cart-path-shot-liv-golf-video
Both "villans" Reed & Garcia played very well on last day.
Cam had a number of recoveries, which probably aren't a surprise any more. Plus his attitude on last putt, not taking two because he could.

GN & team were always going to try to use media, player & fans to push the agenda  - it isn't pretty I agree. Just think the OWGR have left themselves open unnecessarily when it was in their gift to not do so.
		
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Yep saw that shot - that’s the standard Mickleson that always looked at a way to get the shot , sweet connection

The funniest video though was BDC and the rope 😂 the memes from that are as funny as the reaction from him

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...LG89R9fWTLwDpHBfSZFjX11wul&id=193706507316495

there was also the Garcia airmailing the green at the same time as the commentator was highlighting his distance control

Some stunning shots from Smith as well , there was a couple of recovery shots to inches

When it comes to the ranking points - back in June when it all kicked off and the players left they all knew there would be no points - it’s why players were looking to play Asian events and also DP events - the players knew that when they signed up , it’s just another Greg Norman tactic of trying to bully the organisation’s into giving them what they want when they can’t buy it. The issue also is the tours that LIV are taking the players from are also sitting on that ranking committee

A lot of the issues come down to how it’s all kicked off -

From players looking to “poach” others during PGA events
the attacks in the media on CEO of both tours
the overbearing LIV social media accounts that are just looking to widen the divide

There are so many different ways it could have all been done - there could have been a  tour for those top players to play in , an extension of the WGC’s being played around the world with local invites etc but it was never going to happen the minute GN was involved


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572298429023551489


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## Backsticks (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			And still the haters hate.

🤣🤭
		
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Thats a lazy and childish reponse, repeated yet again. 

There is no hate for LIV here. Only a rational, well spelled out, list of reasons why LIV has degraded, and brought no enhancement whatsoever, to the sport of elite professional golf competition, for those who follow, and are entertained by it.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats a lazy and childish reponse, repeated yet again.

There is no hate for LIV here. Only a rational, well spelled out, list of reasons why LIV has degraded, and brought no enhancement whatsoever, to the sport of elite professional golf competition, for those who follow, and are entertained by it.
		
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You do understand that's just an opinion right, and other people will disagree with it?


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## Backsticks (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You do understand that's just an opinion right, and other people will disagree with it?
		
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No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level golf entertainment have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 20, 2022)

Just read Alan' Shipnucks latest article. 

Quote
"Something has to happen quickly or the World Ranking will become a farce. Hopefully when this gets sorted out—and it has to get sorted out—the points will be backdated to LIV London so we can again have a unified ranking with actual meaning." 

https://firepitcollective.com/return-of-askalan/


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level golf entertainment have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.
		
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You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.
		
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He just followed the rules of the tour for which he works.
It isn’t Monaghan, it’s the tour.


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## Backsticks (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.
		
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I am sorry Sir, but it is you who are wrong on this point. The prime mover in the sequence of events was LIV signing these golfers. No signings to a new tour, no splitting of the worlds top golfers.

Your argument is like a handbag snatcher accusing the handbag owner of being responsible for, and initiating a fight, when they refuse to yield the handbag. You are supporting such a preposterous argument as the snatcher claiming - I didnt start any fight, but they did when they didnt hand over the handbag and physically resisted.
So no. LIV started this chain of events, and cannot blame others for it not going their way, and turning messy.


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it
		
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Nope. They are not playing on the PGA Tour because they broke the rules of their membership.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

I suspect they have been misled by Mr Norman. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of them don’t feel a bit annoyed or silly by it.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.
		
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How on earth is he wrong!? It is pure fact that if LIV didn't exist, the players he mentioned would be playing on the PGA Tour.

Then LIV came along and divided top level golf. Even if the PGA hadn't banned LIV players, the LIV players would be playing far fewer PGA events. Most of them said this themselves. Play less golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am sorry Sir, but it is you who are wrong on this point. The prime mover in the sequence of events was LIV signing these golfers. No signings to a new tour, no splitting of the worlds top golfers.

Your argument is like a handbag snatcher accusing the handbag owner of being responsible for, and initiating a fight, when they refuse to yield the handbag. You are supporting such a preposterous argument as the snatcher claiming - I didnt start any fight, but they did when they didnt hand over the handbag and physically resisted.
So no. LIV started this chain of events, and cannot blame others for it not going their way, and turning messy.
		
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As I said, you cannot see it. 

LIV started the chain of events for sure, they also offered the opportunity to the tours to discuss the way forward and set up a schedule that wouldn't impact on those tours. All the fallout we now see, could have been avoided, with LIV in the picture - but Jay was having none of it.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Nope. They are not playing on the PGA Tour because they broke the rules of their membership.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

I suspect they have been misled by Mr Norman. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of them don’t feel a bit annoyed or silly by it.
		
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A rule which is clearly at the discretion of the commissioner.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Everything that is happening right now is because of LIV golf starting up a new tour 

The players are banned from PGAT because they broke tour rules by going to LIV Tour 

The players are only playing on the ET because of a temporary court ruling 

The one area that is at the heart of it all is LIV Tour and Greg Norman 

Now it’s personal opinion whether it’s all a good thing or bad thing but there is no doubt it’s all because of LIV

Shifting blame all over the place doesn’t change that


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A rule which is clearly at the discretion of the commissioner.
		
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The players signed contracts. If they then breach the contract they will be punished. That’s how business the world over works.
Why are you so fixated on Monaghan?


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A rule which is clearly at the discretion of the commissioner.
		
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Is it?
If he hadn’t punished them how would other players have reacted? After all, he works for them!


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## BiMGuy (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A rule which is clearly at the discretion of the commissioner.
		
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So they knowingly broke the rule. They were told what would happen if they did. Now it’s somebody else’s fault they can’t play on the PGAT?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So they knowingly broke the rule. They were told what would happen if they did. Now it’s somebody else’s fault they can’t play on the PGAT?
		
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So therefore, no PGA players should be granted exemptions in the future - as happened before LIV existed?


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## PieMan (Sep 20, 2022)

JamesR said:



			The players signed contracts. If they then breach the contract they will be punished. That’s how business the world over works.
Why are you so fixated on Monaghan?
		
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Because Monaghan doesn't look after the poor caddies...........


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level golf entertainment have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.
		
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I'd suggest that the PGA had already harmed golf to the extent that people were willing to go to another tour. 

Your opinion is one of debate. Yet the OP who is a so called professional journalist can't even be bothered to do their research and admits so on a national forum. And its rational and well spelled out. 

For sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Swango1980 (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So therefore, no PGA players should be granted exemptions in the future - as happened before LIV existed?
		
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Pretty absurd comment. By definition, if the PGA grants an exemption they are permitting something to happen. The fact they have to go through this process suggests it is not automatically assumed players can guarantee they will be allowed to play somewhere else, under their terms of contract. 

If you were to assume the answer was always Yes, why would a player even need to ask permission to begin with?


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## JamesR (Sep 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So therefore, no PGA players should be granted exemptions in the future - as happened before LIV existed?
		
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Exemptions to what?
 Previous exemptions were given as and when rules weren’t broken. Ie Euro tour, Asian tour, Aussie and Saffer tours.
But a tour mainly based in US does break rules.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd suggest that the PGA had already harmed golf to the extent that people were willing to go to another tour.

Your opinion is one of debate. Yet the OP who is a so called professional journalist can't even be bothered to do their research and admits so on a national forum. And its rational and well spelled out.

For sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
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I would suggest that the people were willing to go to another tour because of the vast amounts of money being given to the players regardless of their performance and playing less tournaments as opposed to anything the PGAT have done or not done


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everything that is happening right now is because of LIV golf starting up a new tour

The players are banned from PGAT because they broke tour rules by going to LIV Tour

The players are only playing on the ET because of a temporary court ruling

The one area that is at the heart of it all is LIV Tour and Greg Norman

Now it’s personal opinion whether it’s all a good thing or bad thing but there is no doubt it’s all because of LIV

Shifting blame all over the place doesn’t change that
		
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Noted your line that its your personal opinion 👍#respectthat

My opinion is
Liv did nothing wrong in starting a new tour, its a free market where a business has every right to challenge another.

PGAT doesnt own golf, their actions have also contributed to where we are now.
Had they had better dialogue early on when they held all the cards we could have easily had a PGA Tour season followed by a Liv Golf season.

They were way too confident major players wouldn't go across to Liv and that was a huge misjudgement in hindsight.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572228587604037639
it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler
		
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Please tell me that was dated April 1st?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would suggest that the people were willing to go to another tour because of the vast amounts of money being given to the players regardless of their performance and playing less tournaments as opposed to anything the PGAT have done or not done
		
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I have no doubt money plays a part.


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## IainP (Sep 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level *golf entertainment *have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.
		
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If you sign up to the 4 majors being the pinnacle of top level competition, where the top players meet. And that the majors will keep the top players in attendence. Then aren't all the other events essentially build up and story lines? 
You used entertainment, was the PGA Tour Championship entertaining (my opinion yes), was BMW at Wentworth entertaining (my opinion yes), was the Italian open entertaining (my opinion yes), was LIV Chicago entertaining (my opinion yes).
Maybe not having all the "crown jewels" tied into the PGAT , doesn't actually bother everybody involved in golf - just a thought...
Personally am really looking forward to the 2023 majors (assuming no politics), for the extra little edge of players coming together in competition.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 20, 2022)

My


IainP said:



			If you sign up to the 4 majors being the pinnacle of top level competition, where the top players meet. And that the majors will keep the top players in attendence. Then aren't all the other events essentially build up and story lines?
You used entertainment, was the PGA Tour Championship entertaining (my opinion yes), was BMW at Wentworth entertaining (my opinion yes), was the Italian open entertaining (my opinion yes), was LIV Chicago entertaining (my opinion yes).
Maybe not having all the "crown jewels" tied into the PGAT , doesn't actually bother everybody involved in golf - just a thought...
Personally am really looking forward to the 2023 majors (assuming no politics), for the extra little edge of players coming together in competition.
		
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The PGA is the premier League 
Dp world tour is the championship now with promotion to the premier League
The co events are cup games 
Liv is la Liga 

Majors will become the champions League


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd suggest that the PGA had already harmed golf to the extent that people were willing to go to another tour.

Your opinion is one of debate. Yet the OP who is a so called professional journalist can't even be bothered to do their research and admits so on a national forum. And its rational and well spelled out.

For sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
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There is one reason why those players went and that is simply the vast amounts of money on offer.  And of course, the vast majority of players have not moved,  the conclusion from that must be that the vast majority were content with the PGAT as it was.  Not a single player would have moved had LIV been offering any less than 5 times the money they were getting from the PGA. As a properly commercially funded tour the PGA simply can't offer the same.


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## evemccc (Sep 21, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			The fact is pressure is pressure and it effects people differently. That is the fact. What one person sees as pressure can be a bread and butter situation to someone else.
		
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I have to agree with this. When it comes to golf, IMO pressure is all internal - the more someone wants / or are afraid of not winning or getting that thing,  it seems the more likely they are not to perform at their best

But, I do believe some people are better at dealing with that than others


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## Swango1980 (Sep 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I have to agree with this. When it comes to golf, IMO pressure is all internal - the more someone wants / or are afraid of not winning or getting that thing,  something the more likely they are not not perform at their best 

But, I do believe some people are better at dealing with that than others
		
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Indeed, pressure is completely internal, but is caused by external factors. Some people are brilliant at dealing with it (I.e. Tiger Woods), others not.

But, it is the external factors that contribute to that statement of how much a player wants something, or afraid to lose. There is easy to understand why, for example, McIlroy would feel more pressure at The Masters even more than the other majors, or Mickleson at the US Open, given their history.


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## evemccc (Sep 21, 2022)

GB72 said:



*the Sportswashing elememt (which seems to be ignored in so many other sports because it is not challenging the current elite body) I have an equally poor view of the PGA Tour, DP Tour (which could not look more like the PGA tour's puppy if it tried) and LIV.*

Click to expand...

This is a great point and summarises my position on LIV / the PGA Tour…To it I would add ‘sportswashing in other territories’ is ignored. But it’s precisely the fact that the elite body (and essentially corporate America) and those that have aligned themselves to that i.e. Sky, that is challenged, that all manner of pushback has occurred

The only way I am pro-LIV is that it is free-to-air (for now) and ad-free - if the cricket analogy is taken then I am wholly against the Hundred in particular, and even T20 isn’t my thing….therefore the ‘louder golf’ of LIV clearly isn’t desirable. A lot of it looks pretty naff —- but, I don’t doubt it will improve in time

That being said I don’t care about watching golf and the culture of pro golf in the way I care about watching cricket, so I feel I care less about it’s ‘heritage’. And the PGA Tour isn’t a great ‘product’ and some innovations with LIV - like a shotgun start and team element could have been good - esp if it including mixed gender teams

For me as a bit of a contrarian, it’s the obvious hypocrisy and lack of context in appeals to morality in the arguments that the PGA Tour have used, which is used to masquerade self-preservation, of the PGA Tour and its defenders such as NLU and Sky pretty annoying — annoying esp as Sky essentially helped promote two boxing fights in Saudi Arabia

As a potential usurper Vs an established ruling body, I find the power struggle of LIV Vs PGA Tour very interesting — but in all my time in golf clubhouses, I have never once heard anyone discuss what happened in the weekend’s PGA Tour event, or LIV for that matter…the Open / Masters are the only times I’ve heard pro golf discussed


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 21, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572263021107630080


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## Backsticks (Sep 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572263021107630080

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The LIV jumpers seem to have made a lot of silly or poorly informed decisions all right. How much of it is known unknowns being discovered as they go, or whether they had assurances from Saudis/Greg that they didnt then back up, we just dont know.


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## evemccc (Sep 21, 2022)

Re: OWGR and LIV

Two tweets from Alan Shipnuck:

“LIV Golf needs World Ranking points. The OWGR needs LIV players to avoid irrelevancy. This doesn't seem that hard: LIV should go to 72 hole events with a cut (paying the players who M/C whatever it wants) and add a Monday Qualifier, which would be fun theater. Voilá!”

“For LIV, the added benefit is that this would undercut much of the critique that it isn’t real competition. The shotgun starts can stay or go, I don’t really care.”


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The LIV jumpers seem to have made a lot of silly or poorly informed decisions all right. How much of it is known unknowns being discovered as they go, or whether they had assurances from Saudis/Greg that they didnt then back up, we just dont know.
		
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I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.
		
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How would you expect the PGA Tour to react? Send them their blessing, considering any player joining LIV would clearly play in less PGA events, and weaken the PGA. If the PGA were happy to work with LIV, there would be no issues with Milroy, Thomas, Scheffler, etc from joining LIV, knowing the PGA Tour have no problems with it.

Fair enough for people like you, you'd have a LIV tour with all the current best players in the world. And you get to watch it for free. Meanwhile, the PGA is severely downgraded, loses sponsors and broadcasters, and LIV becomes the major golf tour in a few years time (at which point broadcasters sign deals and it is no longer free to watch). However, even if it was true it had the best players in the world at this point of time, how true would that be in 1 year time, 5 years time, etc. With no proper qualification, you would no doubt have big name players who are past their sell by date still competing on LIV, whilst you have excellent young golfers coming through that struggle to get a chance.

Of course the PGA Tour is going to protect its brand. It will continue to try and provide a self sustaining golf tour for the elite golfers in this world, while LIV just tries to throw masses more money at it, money not earned through the golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.
		
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The Presidents Cup is run by the PGAT 

Any player who played in LIV events or moved to their tour is currently banned from playing in PGAT Events - why is there still a shock or a surprise for this ?

Nothing has changed in the last couple of months , the players tried to go to court to play in the events and it was turned away 

Why would they suddenly allow the players to play now ? 

Every single player knew there would be consequences when they left to go to LIV - if they were told anything different then they were lied too.


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## AussieKB (Sep 21, 2022)

It is long overdue to end this thread.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It is long overdue to end this thread.
		
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feel free to not read or post in it then


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## JamesR (Sep 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Presidents Cup is run by the PGAT

Any player who played in LIV events or moved to their tour is currently banned from playing in PGAT Events - why is there still a shock or a surprise for this ?

Nothing has changed in the last couple of months , the players tried to go to court to play in the events and it was turned away

Why would they suddenly allow the players to play now ?

Every single player knew there would be consequences when they left to go to LIV - if they were told anything different then they were lied too.
		
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Can non-PGA tour members  (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Re: OWGR and LIV

Two tweets from Alan Shipnuck:

“LIV Golf needs World Ranking points. The OWGR needs LIV players to avoid irrelevancy. This doesn't seem that hard: LIV should go to 72 hole events with a cut (paying the players who M/C whatever it wants) and add a Monday Qualifier, which would be fun theater. Voilá!”

“For LIV, the added benefit is that this would undercut much of the critique that it isn’t real competition. The shotgun starts can stay or go, I don’t really care.”
		
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Isn't there also an issue with size of the field having to be 75+ on average over the year? That would make a shotgun start impossible.

The rules for awarding OWGR points are very clear and LIV chose not to follow them. They currently don't qualify for several reasons but are stamping their feet and screaming about how unfair it is. The simple solution is for LIV to adapt their tour to meet the criteria for getting OWGR points and then they'd have a valid argument.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 21, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Can non-PGA tour members  (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?
		
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Yes the International team can be picked from any tour 

Well any Tour that currently doesn’t have players banned by the PGAT 



AussieKB said:



			It is long overdue to end this thread.
		
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Why ? Has LIV stopped ?


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## Slab (Sep 21, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Can non-PGA tour members  (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?
		
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Yeah they can if its for the International team
i.e if Louis Oosthuizen had resigned from pgat before hitting a ball for liv instead of after, he could've still been picked for the Int team (thats what I read anyway)


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## Slab (Sep 21, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't there also an issue with size of the field having to be 75+ on average over the year? That would make a shotgun start impossible.

*The rules for awarding OWGR points are very clear *and LIV chose not to follow them. They currently don't qualify for several reasons but are stamping their feet and screaming about how unfair it is. The simple solution is for LIV to adapt their tour to meet the criteria for getting OWGR points and then they'd have a valid argument.
		
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After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'


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## Depreston (Sep 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'
		
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isn't there 7 steps to get the rankings?

2 biggies being a Q-school and Monday qualifiers?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'
		
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My understanding is that development or feeder tours are allowed to be 54 holes but all of the main tours are 72 holes. And in both instances with a cut.


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## Backsticks (Sep 21, 2022)

So the rules writers of the time were running 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments. And wrote the rules to cater for....... 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments.
So get on with it, and change the rules owgr.

As far as points go for Saudi tour events, they are going to be very few anyway. The poor average level if players, and 40% of the entrants in a standard tournament, will still have Saudi players struggle to avoid slipping down the rankings.


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			So the rules writers of the time were running 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments. And wrote the rules to cater for....... 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments.
So get on with it, and change the rules owgr.

As far as points go for Saudi tour events, they are going to be very few anyway. The poor average level if players, and 40% of the entrants in a standard tournament, will still have Saudi players struggle to avoid slipping down the rankings.
		
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The main current debate is around principles & politics, but putting those aside for a mo' I agree it is a pretty straightforward maths problem.

The OWGR already has rules in place for field strength calculations. It probably already caters for smaller field sizes as have those on PGAT. The owgr already cover 54 holes tournaments. They could add an extra reduction metric (i.e. 0.75 factor) with liv not being a "developmental tour". They already cover non cut tournaments, as have those on PGAT. That is one area I'd suggest changing though. Currently they give points to all players, I'd suggest some formula so say only the top half, or top 3rd would receive points. This would assist the competition argument.  Especially with more no cut events coming on PGAT in future.
Points on offer would definitely be lower than the premium PGAT tournaments, perhaps closer to regular DPWT ones but hard to be sure. No doubt the actual points would become the next debate point should it ever happen!

It looks pretty obvious the "75% of tour" rule was added later at the behest of the PGAT so they could be more flexible. So that would potentially need changing. Assume the "Monday qualifying" one is also tied with that as it doesn't apply everywhere today.
Not really expecting anything to happen in a hurry though.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Pressure is on the owgr to do something, so they cannot remain inactive for too long. With each passing week, the rankings are becoming more and more irrelevant, and little better than random numbers. Their credibility is being chipped away by their inaction. Some modification to include SGT players is absolutely necessary before the end of the year, or next years numbers will be meaningless.
I would think Saudi tour points would still be lower than an average World tour tournament at the moment, due to the small size of the field.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Will the world explode or something if the OWGR changes their system? 

Has this just not highlighted how restricted the system is, as IainP has said, there are already events that don't fit the exact criteria that still seem to be able to have players earning OWGR points.
Surely making the system more flexible is just future proofing so that as the proffesional game develops, it allows points to be awarded without controversy?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Will the world explode or something if the OWGR changes their system? 

Has this just not highlighted how restricted the system is, as IainP has said, there are already events that don't fit the exact criteria that still seem to be able to have players earning OWGR points.
Surely making the system more flexible is just future proofing so that as the proffesional game develops, it allows points to be awarded without controversy?
		
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To be fair, I don't think the world would explode if OWGR points were not offered to LIV either. But, if they are in future, as others have suggested, they'll probably be a fraction of what players could get on full field events on PGA. I'd be surprised if they offered enough points for a player to realistically reach World Number 1,  unless they win most of the Majors


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Pressure is on the owgr to do something, so they cannot remain inactive for too long. With each passing week, the rankings are becoming more and more irrelevant, and little better than random numbers. Their credibility is being chipped away by their inaction. Some modification to include SGT players is absolutely necessary before the end of the year, or next years numbers will be meaningless.
I would think Saudi tour points would still be lower than an average World tour tournament at the moment, due to the small size of the field.
		
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Hard to tell, some examples...

Old calc rules- field of 38, fairly strong, lowest was 124th
62 pts to winner
2021 bmw Wentworth, 64 pts to winner

https://www.owgr.com/events/sentry-tournament-of-champions-9377

New calc rules  - Field of 29, but high ranked, lowest was 61st
39pts to winner
Last weeks Italian open 24 pts to winner 

https://www.owgr.com/events/tour-championship---72-hole-scores-9675


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Pressure is on the owgr to do something, so they cannot remain inactive for too long. With each passing week, the rankings are becoming more and more irrelevant, and little better than random numbers.
		
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I wouldn't be that dramatic about it by saying with each passing week.
When is the next big tournament with some decent points available, next year? 
I've just had a quick look at Rorys schedule,  he's playing the Dunhill Links next week then some tournament I've never heard of, hardly massive scoring events.
I think they have plenty of time to sort this out, certainly going to be an interesting few months ahead though.


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## Val (Sep 22, 2022)

LIV golf should have had this all sorted with the OWGR before they even held a tournament or signed a player.

I'm not against it by any means but the whinging and moaning coming out of LIV suggests they thought it was a given regardless without actually checking.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I wouldn't be that dramatic about it by saying with each passing week.
When is the next big tournament with some decent points available, next year?
I've just had a quick look at Rorys schedule,  he's playing the Dunhill Links next week then some tournament I've never heard of, hardly massive scoring events.
I think they have plenty of time to sort this out, certainly going to be an interesting few months ahead though.
		
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Rather than those still in the points system, its more about anyone on LiV who has tournaments winding out of the system, and so is now slipping.
But sorting it by the end of the year will be fine, and the numbers will right themselves through the first few months of 2023. The sooner they fix it, the less it will take the rankings to correct the now accumulating, albeit slowly, errors.


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To be fair, I don't think the world would explode if OWGR points were not offered to LIV either. But, if they are in future, as others have suggested, they'll probably be a fraction of what players could get on full field events on PGA. *I'd be surprised if they offered enough points for a player to realistically reach World Number 1,  unless they win most of the Majors*

Click to expand...

Agree, think they'd need to be high placing in majors for that. With current field more about being able to maintain approx ranking if playing well.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 22, 2022)

Val said:



			LIV golf should have had this all sorted with the OWGR before they even held a tournament or signed a player.

I'm not against it by any means but the whinging and moaning coming out of LIV suggests they thought it was a given regardless without actually checking.
		
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Problems arise Val when certain organisations refuse to act like adults and get round a table and talk it through. The blatant refusal and ignorance shown (on both sides at times) is not portraying golf in a good light.

The subsequent media lead anti Liv campaign is embarrassing also.

The PGA (non profit making organisation I believe was caught sitting with over $900 million in the bank) suddenly finds extra money to make additional payments etc. 

Some people have been brainwashed into believing one side if the argument. There are a lot of issues that resulted in players moving over not just money like some on here would like to believe. 

I'm not in favour or anti Liv, but in general I think it could offer something different and a good alternative to regular golf for the public. The toxic press have created the warfare environment on behalf of the PGA. 

From what I have watched to date I think it's been fun and relaxed.


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## Depreston (Sep 22, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Problems arise Val when certain organisations refuse to act like adults and get round a table and talk it through. The blatant refusal and ignorance shown (on both sides at times) is not portraying golf in a good light.

The subsequent media lead anti Liv campaign is embarrassing also.

The PGA (non profit making organisation I believe was caught sitting with over $900 million in the bank) suddenly finds extra money to make additional payments etc.

Some people have been brainwashed into believing one side if the argument. There are a lot of issues that resulted in players moving over not just money like some on here would like to believe.

I'm not in favour or anti Liv, but in general I think it could offer something different and a good alternative to regular golf for the public. The toxic press have created the warfare environment on behalf of the PGA.

From what I have watched to date I think it's been fun and relaxed.
		
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$900 mil? Going to need proof of that


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			The subsequent media lead anti Liv campaign is embarrassing also.
		
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That sounds very Trumpian and conspiracy theorist, and struggling with the less sinister reality that the media, and general comment, overwhelmingly, simply views LIV as adding nothing, but damaging the pro golf entertainment product.


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## rksquire (Sep 22, 2022)

Zalatoris has give the best interview yet, from any player, regarding LIV and his own status - fairly measured, kept emotion out of it and didn't say silly things that will come back to bite him.  Watched Monahan's interviews regarding the ranking points; apart from avoiding answering the SA question he smirked through the fact he has a say on the board of the OWGR.... to be fair I find both him and Norman quite unlikeable (to put it mildly).  From a few interviews now it seems most players think there will be some agreement at some point in the future (next year); 

Thankfully (for golf fans), the actual golf might have something to do with it - a LIV golfer winning a Major devalues OWGR and other 'legitimate' tours; pour showings at ranking events by LIV players devalues their product (lack of competitive edge / sharpness).  I know a lot of people on here don't like that, but I'm looking forward to the events where they mingle and interact - it is additional interest, provides another edge to the tournament and shows, actually, teams might just work!  (Team PGAT + subservient tours vs Team LIV - it's already divisive and people have already picked their sides).

Cam Smith is the interesting one I think, as his world ranking slips - before joining he was one of the best players in the world, ranked 2 but closing the gap; I think he still is one of the very best in the world.  At a push, I'd suggest Smith, DJ and McIlroy are the best current players in the world, taking the year as a whole of course Shuffler is in there.  I understand the argument that it was Smiths decision to leave but not having the actual very best talent as part of the metric has to devalue said metric or at least leave it open to question for critics; the rankings can't be a self serving exercise for the PGAT only to promote it's own players - but it is currently is.  

It highlights an issue, that isn't just LIV related - Apart from the guys who have 2 memberships (PGAT & DPWT), who is the highest ranked exclusive DPWT player in the world rankings?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That sounds very Trumpian and conspiracy theorist, and struggling with the less sinister reality that the media, and general comment, overwhelmingly, simply views LIV as adding nothing, but damaging the pro golf entertainment product.
		
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BBC website was showing all the golf scores from all the tours last weekend, nothing from LIV. There’s nothing conspiracy theorist about that, it’s quite obvious they are making a decision not to cover it.


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## Slab (Sep 22, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Zalatoris has give the best interview yet, from any player, regarding LIV and his own status - fairly measured, kept emotion out of it and didn't say silly things that will come back to bite him.  Watched Monahan's interviews regarding the ranking points; apart from avoiding answering the SA question he smirked through the fact he has a say on the board of the OWGR.... to be fair I find both him and Norman quite unlikeable (to put it mildly).  From a few interviews now it seems most players think there will be some agreement at some point in the future (next year);

Thankfully (for golf fans), the actual golf might have something to do with it - a LIV golfer winning a Major devalues OWGR and other 'legitimate' tours; pour showings at ranking events by LIV players devalues their product (lack of competitive edge / sharpness).  I know a lot of people on here don't like that, but I'm looking forward to the events where they mingle and interact - it is additional interest, provides another edge to the tournament and shows, actually, teams might just work!  (Team PGAT + subservient tours vs Team LIV - it's already divisive and people have already picked their sides).

Cam Smith is the interesting one I think, as his world ranking slips - before joining he was one of the best players in the world, ranked 2 but closing the gap; I think he still is one of the very best in the world.  At a push, I'd suggest Smith, DJ and McIlroy are the best current players in the world, taking the year as a whole of course Shuffler is in there.  I understand the argument that it was Smiths decision to leave but not having the actual very best talent as part of the metric has to devalue said metric or at least leave it open to question for critics; the rankings can't be a self serving exercise for the PGAT only to promote it's own players - but it is currently is. 

It highlights an issue, that isn't just LIV related -* Apart from the guys who have 2 memberships (PGAT & DPWT), who is the highest ranked exclusive DPWT player in the world rankings?*

Click to expand...

Good pop quiz question

I was gonna go with Dean Burmester ranked in the 60's as he only got pgat card in the last couple of weeks but on checking him I see he was on korn tour earlier this year so its a grey area


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			BBC website was showing all the golf scores from all the tours last weekend, nothing from LIV. There’s nothing conspiracy theorist about that, it’s quite obvious they are making a decision not to cover it.
		
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They did have this, with a link to the leaderboard 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62951117


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

Slab said:



			Good pop quiz question

I was gonna go with Dean Burmester ranked in the 60's as he only got pgat card in the last couple of weeks but on checking him I see he was on korn tour earlier this year so its a grey area
		
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I'd go Ryan Fox


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			BBC website was showing all the golf scores from all the tours last weekend, nothing from LIV. There’s nothing conspiracy theorist about that, it’s quite obvious they are making a decision not to cover it.
		
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Please. can a respectfully ask you to get over yourself. I've just gone onto the BBC Golf Page, and of the 12 News articles on show, they can be split as:


5 related to LIV (including 1 related to the LIV results)
1 related to weekend PGA Result
1 related to LPGA
1 related to Ladies European Tour
1 related to Italian Open DP World Tour
1 related to blind golfers
1 related to the funeral of Reay
1 related to Ryder Cup
Stop playing the victim by trying to focus on one little element within the BBC, and making it sound like they are actively ignoring LIV. They are quite clearly NOT ignoring LIV in the slightest. If you are sad that you cannot see the leaderboard, why don't you just log into the LIV website. Surely it is just as easy to get access there!? I'm sure there are also good websites that you can get access to the Korn Ferry Tour, Challenge Tour, Sunshine Tour, etc.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Iain, Swango, you are just providing alternative facts. Please stop.
Some prefer to go with their fact that the BBC didnt report on LIV.....


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Please. can a respectfully ask you to get over yourself. I've just gone onto the BBC Golf Page, and of the 12 News articles on show, they can be split as:


5 related to LIV (including 1 related to the LIV results)
1 related to weekend PGA Result
1 related to LPGA
1 related to Ladies European Tour
1 related to Italian Open DP World Tour
1 related to blind golfers
1 related to the funeral of Reay
1 related to Ryder Cup
Stop playing the victim by trying to focus on one little element within the BBC, and making it sound like they are actively ignoring LIV. They are quite clearly NOT ignoring LIV in the slightest. If you are sad that you cannot see the leaderboard, why don't you just log into the LIV website. Surely it is just as easy to get access there!? I'm sure there are also good websites that you can get access to the Korn Ferry Tour, Challenge Tour, Sunshine Tour, etc.
		
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And over the weekend, they weren’t showing the scores. 

It was Mark Crossfield that highlighted it, I’m just putting the information on here buddy.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 22, 2022)

Been away a while - now I'm back!

5 events in and I'd struggle to argue that LIV hasn't got better over those events.

Better player in, some great tournaments played - no complaints from me! 

Found it pretty funny when Rory gave the LIV players a jab with his "lets see how they go over 72 holes" and it ended up being 54  

Overall - I think there's place for both tours now and they should just work together for a solution. I do find spectating LIV on tv more entertaining than a PGA tour event.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And over the weekend, they weren’t showing the scores.
		
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This is true, I highlighted it myself weeks back. They only appear to do a report once the tournament has ended, any pieces before a tournament were all very sniffy and clearly anti LIV.
So much for the BBC being neutral.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 22, 2022)

Depreston said:



			$900 mil? Going to need proof of that
		
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See there's no reply here,  how surprising.  The truth is that there was a high watermark of reserves of around $300 million of which around $75 million was used to cover Covid losses.  They announced before the introduction of LIV that these would further be reduced over the coming years.    That of course doesn't suit the conspiracy theorist.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And over the weekend, they weren’t showing the scores.

It was Mark Crossfield that highlighted it, I’m just putting the information on here buddy.
		
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Maybe, just maybe LIV needs to prove itself as one of the main global world tours. You do realise the BBC doesn't just report the results of every golf competition? It didn't report the scores of my weekend Stableford either, but I'm not offended by that.

I know you think it is a significant World Tour, but that is simply your individual opinion. This thread shows there are plenty of people who are not overly interested in it (the golf side of things anyway), and viewing figures have yet to show it is mega popular. Of all my golfing colleagues at my club, I know of nobody that has watched LIV yet. There might have been one or 2 that flicked on youTube to see what it was about, but I know of no-one that is interested enough to keep watching it, know the players playing or the teams. At the end of the day, it is a tour that has a handful of events per year, 48 "random" players playing over 3 rounds and does not even qualify for World Ranking Points. So, what makes it qualify to be a leading tour that deserves the BBC to automatically report the scores? Because Cameron Smith played? Because the prize money is high?

There is no point in whinging over it. As I said, the BBC are clearly not ignoring LIV, it clearly recognises it is a big thing in golf. It reports on interviews with LIV players and even reports on who won the latest LIV competition. I'd imagine if they did show the leaderboard, you'd then start whinging it wasn't the No.1 leaderboard on the list.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe, just maybe LIV needs to prove itself as one of the main global world tours. You do realise the BBC doesn't just report the results of every golf competition? It didn't report the scores of my weekend Stableford either, but I'm not offended by that.

I know you think it is a significant World Tour, but that is simply your individual opinion. This thread shows there are plenty of people who are not overly interested in it (the golf side of things anyway), and viewing figures have yet to show it is mega popular. Of all my golfing colleagues at my club, I know of nobody that has watched LIV yet. There might have been one or 2 that flicked on youTube to see what it was about, but I know of no-one that is interested enough to keep watching it, know the players playing or the teams. At the end of the day, it is a tour that has a handful of events per year, 48 "random" players playing over 3 rounds and does not even qualify for World Ranking Points. So, what makes it qualify to be a leading tour that deserves the BBC to automatically report the scores? Because Cameron Smith played? Because the prize money is high?

There is no point in whinging over it. As I said, the BBC are clearly not ignoring LIV, it clearly recognises it is a big thing in golf. It reports on interviews with LIV players and even reports on who won the latest LIV competition. I'd imagine if they did show the leaderboard, you'd then start whinging it wasn't the No.1 leaderboard on the list.
		
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So LIV is relevant enough to be the most discussed topic in golf, it’s forced major upheaval in the existing tours, it’s changed the golf landscape forever, and has arguably one of the best current players in golf right now, but the BBC doesn’t think it’s important to display the leaderboard over a weekend, but will report on the more controversial aspects of the series. 

But there’s no agenda from the msm?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV is relevant enough to be the most discussed topic in golf, it’s forced major upheaval in the existing tours, it’s changed the golf landscape forever, and has arguably one of the best current players in golf right now, but the BBC doesn’t think it’s important to display the leaderboard over a weekend, but will report on the more controversial aspects of the series.

But there’s no agenda from the msm?
		
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Neither of the reasons it’s currently one of the hot topics is the quality of golf or the quality of field. The BBC are reporting on the circus that is LiV 

The quality of golf may be good. But the last tournament was played on a fairly easy course. But (currently) the depth of field is teaspoon deep. Despite having one of the current top players in the world.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV is relevant enough to be the most discussed topic in golf, it’s forced major upheaval in the existing tours, it’s changed the golf landscape forever, and has arguably one of the best current players in golf right now, but the BBC doesn’t think it’s important to display the leaderboard over a weekend, but will report on the more controversial aspects of the series.

But there’s no agenda from the msm?
		
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BBC is not reporting either on the positive elements of what Russia is doing in Ukraine either, like cleaning the country of fascists and restoring the seperatist regions to Russia. All they report on is Putin bad, war, war, war. So biased.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			BBC is not reporting either on the positive elements of what Russia is doing in Ukraine either, like cleaning the country of fascists and restoring the seperatist regions to Russia. All they report on is Putin bad, war, war, war. So biased.
		
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What?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			BBC is not reporting either on the positive elements of what Russia is doing in Ukraine either, like cleaning the country of fascists and restoring the seperatist regions to Russia. All they report on is Putin bad, war, war, war. So biased.
		
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You can’t post political content on here mate. 😂


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## Swango1980 (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV is relevant enough to be the most discussed topic in golf, it’s forced major upheaval in the existing tours, it’s changed the golf landscape forever, and has arguably one of the best current players in golf right now, but the BBC doesn’t think it’s important to display the leaderboard over a weekend, but will report on the more controversial aspects of the series.

But there’s no agenda from the msm?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. You are really struggling to understand the difference between the politics of golf, and playing the game of golf. If Tiger Woods made an amazing comeback in some sort of joint competition with his son, maybe shot a 59, there may be all sorts of articles on the BBC discussing Tiger Woods. I still wouldn't expect them to provide a leaderboard to that event.

You can scream and shout all you wish about how great LIV is. However, if LIV needs to rely on people doing that, it really is in trouble. If LIV is to truly become a "legitimate" golf tour, then it basically needs to do so with the support of golf fans in general. Whether the BBC reports the results or not is of no significance. Whether you scream about how good it is, or I express my opinion that it is exhibition golf really doesn't matter. If it is really going to end up being as successful as you think it will be, it will just happen organically. And, if it is all a load of hot air, it will slowly disappear from recognition. 

For any of us who watch golf, we all do so as it is entertaining. I've no issue if LIV becomes the leading tour, whether the PGA continues to lead or whether some other yet unknown force comes along to take the world by storm. However, the PGA Tour, in my mind, is what entertains me far more than LIV, and it has had years to refine what it does. LIV has many obstacles in its way before I personally can take it seriously, albeit I recognise it's impact on elite golf is to be taken seriously, just not in a positive light. Yes, it has made changes, but most / all of the changes were not changes that anyone was really crying out far (although I welcome the allowance to wear shorts). They were just effectively random changes, and therefore nothing really indicates whether they were for the best or worst. Completely individual opinion. They might only be considered good changes if it becomes evident most of the golfing world wanted them, and I see zero evidence for that.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Neither of the reasons it’s currently one of the hot topics is the quality of golf or the quality of field. The BBC are reporting on the circus that is LiV

The quality of golf may be good. But the last tournament was played on a fairly easy course. But (currently) the depth of field is teaspoon deep. Despite having one of the current top players in the world.
		
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What was easy about the course?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 22, 2022)

rksquire said:



			Zalatoris has give the best interview yet, from any player, regarding LIV and his own status - fairly measured, kept emotion out of it and didn't say silly things that will come back to bite him.  Watched Monahan's interviews regarding the ranking points; apart from avoiding answering the SA question he smirked through the fact he has a say on the board of the OWGR.... to be fair I find both him and Norman quite unlikeable (to put it mildly).  From a few interviews now it seems most players think there will be some agreement at some point in the future (next year);

Thankfully (for golf fans), the actual golf might have something to do with it - a LIV golfer winning a Major devalues OWGR and other 'legitimate' tours; pour showings at ranking events by LIV players devalues their product (lack of competitive edge / sharpness).  I know a lot of people on here don't like that, but I'm looking forward to the events where they mingle and interact - it is additional interest, provides another edge to the tournament and shows, actually, teams might just work!  (Team PGAT + subservient tours vs Team LIV - it's already divisive and people have already picked their sides).

Cam Smith is the interesting one I think, as his world ranking slips - before joining he was one of the best players in the world, ranked 2 but closing the gap; I think he still is one of the very best in the world.  At a push, I'd suggest Smith, DJ and McIlroy are the best current players in the world, taking the year as a whole of course Shuffler is in there.  I understand the argument that it was Smiths decision to leave but not having the actual very best talent as part of the metric has to devalue said metric or at least leave it open to question for critics; the rankings can't be a self serving exercise for the PGAT only to promote it's own players - but it is currently is. 

It highlights an issue, that isn't just LIV related - Apart from the guys who have 2 memberships (PGAT & DPWT), who is the highest ranked exclusive DPWT player in the world rankings?
		
Click to expand...

Got to be Ryan Fox ?


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## banjofred (Sep 22, 2022)

356 pages of people who can't accept other people's views......the world is doomed.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

banjofred said:



			356 pages of people who can't accept other people's views......the world is doomed.
		
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We accept them, but retain an optimism that we can correct their mistaken views !


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			We accept them, but retain an optimism that we can correct their mistaken views !
		
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He's aiming his comments at you just as much as us on the other side of the argument tha noz ;-)


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## r0wly86 (Sep 22, 2022)

seems people are falling in to a few categories

1. Really don't like the way PGAT is run so have thrown all their eggs into the LIV basket, promoting everything about it and slating everything from the PGAT, because anything is better than than status quo
2. People who aren't particularly enamoured by the PGAT, don't think the LIV is great but will watch it because they like watching golf
3. People who are not fussed at all and agnostic on pretty much everything relating to LIV and PGAT
4. People who in principle have nothing against a new tour, but don't think LIV has been set up or run at all well, and in its current form has actually a negative impact on world golf and cannot see that changing unless LIV completely change how they operate
5. People who are very much against the Saudi State using sport as a propaganda tool and so cannot like LIV out of principle
6. People who like to post about how many posts there are


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

👆  😁🙂
7. People who think a pretty insignificant number of forum members, posting on a pretty insignificant golf forum, mostly residing on a pretty insignificant little  island, will make knack all difference to how this all pans out! 😉

but it passes the time - currently on a train...


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## 4LEX (Sep 22, 2022)

LIV players have made their own bed with regard to ranking points, majors and team events. They joined to play less for more dollar so why are they complaining they can't get into more events or have ranking points? All that matters is growing the game and doing something different supposedly....

It's clear now that was all nonsense and they want to have the best of both worlds. Not going to happen. They'll need to play more events and even qualifying events to get into majors whilst travelling to Asia and Australia for the ranking points 

I don't blame the guys for taking the money, I would've done the same if I was over 40 and my best days behind me. However if you do that show some class, backbone and stick to your decision without slithering around and crying like a baby over other tours and ranking points. The younger players have made a bad move.

My own take is I hope the PGA Tour, DP World Tour, the majors and broadcasters shun them. It might cause chaos for a year or two but they'll start crawling back and cancelling the LIV contracts. No one is irreplaceable and as long as they're falling out of the world rankings, getting less coverage and not in the majors no one will care about them.


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

4LEX said:



			LIV players have made their own bed with regard to ranking points, majors and team events. They joined to play less for more dollar so why are they complaining they can't get into more events or have ranking points? All that matters is growing the game and doing something different supposedly....

It's clear now that was all nonsense and they want to have the best of both worlds. Not going to happen. They'll need to play more events and even qualifying events to get into majors whilst travelling to Asia and Australia for the ranking points 

I don't blame the guys for taking the money, I would've done the same if I was over 40 and my best days behind me. However if you do that show some class, backbone and stick to your decision without slithering around and crying like a baby over other tours and ranking points. The younger players have made a bad move.

My own take is I hope the PGA Tour, DP World Tour, the majors and broadcasters shun them. It might cause chaos for a year or two but they'll start crawling back and cancelling the LIV contracts. No one is irreplaceable and as long as they're falling out of the world rankings, getting less coverage and not in the majors no one will care about them.
		
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You're obviously well entitled to your opinion.
On this well used point  -
"They joined to play less for more dollar"

To clarify, what % of players actually said this?
Your post reads like 100%
Or might it be 30%, or 3%
Or something you just _know...
😉_


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 22, 2022)

LIV players suing the PGAT to be allowed to play in their events is a strange one for me. What happens if PGAT players sue LIV to be able to play in their events? If, legally, there is a reason to allow LIV players to play on the PGAT then surely the reverse equally applies and PGAT players should be allowed to play in LIV events. And if PGAT players are allowed to play in the LIV events then surely they will need to be reimbursed to the same level as others playing in the same events.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 22, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			LIV players suing the PGAT to be allowed to play in their events is a strange one for me. What happens if PGAT players sue LIV to be able to play in their events? If, legally, there is a reason to allow LIV players to play on the PGAT then surely the reverse equally applies and PGAT players should be allowed to play in LIV events. And if PGAT players are allowed to play in the LIV events then surely they will need to be reimbursed to the same level as others playing in the same events.
		
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Would LIV almost want that; get the pick of the players in one fell swoop by allowing the pick of the top 48 from the PGA Tour to join… 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 22, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			LIV players suing the PGAT to be allowed to play in their events is a strange one for me. What happens if PGAT players sue LIV to be able to play in their events? If, legally, there is a reason to allow LIV players to play on the PGAT then surely the reverse equally applies and PGAT players should be allowed to play in LIV events. And if PGAT players are allowed to play in the LIV events then surely they will need to be reimbursed to the same level as others playing in the same events.
		
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Thing is, this could have been the plan - a two way street of top players switching between the PGA and LIV series, to the benefit of all parties - We know that GN definitely approched both the PGA Tours and DPWT to try and work something out. With the benefit of hindsight, or foresight depending on where you are on the whole thing, it seems to me that something along those lines might have been a pretty good solution.


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Mr. Norman goes to Washington.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...iv-golf-series-saudi-arabia-us-congress-visit


One legal expert interviewed by the Guardian said that business ventures that are owned by foreign governments do sometimes escape scrutiny, but not when they are owned by a nation’s sovereign wealth fund, and not when there are legitimate questions about whether the business also has public relations goals involving the country’s image abroad.
“I think there are a lot of signs that LIV is not a typical business interest. I think there are a lot of reasons for the DoJ to potentially kick tires on this. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did,” said Matt Sanderson, a lawyer at Caplin & Drysdale who specialises in Fara cases. Sanderson said it was also unclear whether LIV intended to make a profit in the long run, raising further questions about its intentions.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 22, 2022)

Adam Scott

Playing in the next Liv Event in Bangkok

Yes Or No?


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## Backsticks (Sep 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Thing is, this could have been the plan - a two way street of top players switching between the PGA and LIV series, to the benefit of all parties - We know that GN definitely approched both the PGA Tours and DPWT to try and work something out. With the benefit of hindsight, or foresight depending on where you are on the whole thing, it seems to me that something along those lines might have been a pretty good solution.
		
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Solution, to what ?


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Adam Scott

Playing in the next Liv Event in Bangkok

Yes Or No?
		
Click to expand...

I'd go No.
But who knows..


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'd go No.
But who knows..
		
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He’s past it so a big yes from me 👀


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2022)

4LEX said:



			.....

*My own take is I hope the PGA Tour, DP World Tour, *the majors* and broadcasters shun them.* It might cause chaos for a year or two but they'll start crawling back and cancelling the LIV contracts. No one is irreplaceable and as long as they're falling out of the world rankings, getting less coverage and not in the majors no one will care about them.
		
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Re the bit above, isn't that what has been happening since June ? (If we restrict broadcasters to USA & UK).

The majors remain a bit of an unknown. The Masters position isn't clear. The 2 opens in 2022 happened after it started but hadn't really had time to digest/react.

What you outline could still happen. Just feels to me that with each week that passes it becomes less likely.
Is also more difficult to control internet coverage, and it looks as though a number were included due to their 'net presence.


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## Imurg (Sep 23, 2022)

IainP said:



			You're obviously well entitled to your opinion.
On this well used point  -
"They joined to play less for more dollar"

To clarify, what % of players actually said this?
		
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Patrick Reed for 1.
Now he's signed up for the Dunhill he's playing 7 weeks in a row.....Boston LIV, PGA, Chicago LIV,  French, Dunhill and then straight to the far East for a couple of Asian Tour events as per his LIV contract.....
Busy boy for someone who wants to spend less time out on Tour and more time at home....


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## ExRabbit (Sep 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Patrick Reed for 1.
Now he's signed up for the Dunhill he's playing 7 weeks in a row.....Chicago LIV, PGA, Italian,  French, Dunhill and then straight to the far East for a couple of Asian Tour events as per his LIV contract.....
Busy boy for someone who wants to spend less time out on Tour and more time at home....
		
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Not taking any sides here - but wasn't Reed getting a lot of credit for being an American PGAT player who played all over the world not so long ago? In Europe a lot at least.


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## Imurg (Sep 23, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Not taking any sides here - but wasn't Reed getting a lot of credit for being an American PGAT player who played all over the world not so long ago? In Europe a lot at least.
		
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Absolutely..a World Player before LIV
But he said recently that the PGAT forced him to not be around when his kids went to school and miss them coming home in the afternoon and is deeply saddened by only getting iPad time with his kids...and yet he's playing 7 weeks on the bounce....


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely..a World Player before LIV
But he said recently that the PGAT forced him to not be around when his kids went to school and miss them coming home in the afternoon and is deeply saddened by only getting iPad time with his kids...and yet he's playing 7 weeks on the bounce....
		
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I think he may be chasing OGWR points right now to try and maintain his ranking while they wait for the decision on Liv events OGWR points. 

If Liv events were receiving points he probably wouldn't be playing 7 weeks in a row I'm guessing. 

A situation of their own making of course but a possible reason for 7 weeks on the bounce no less..


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## Imurg (Sep 23, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I think he may be chasing OGWR points right now to try and maintain his ranking while they wait for the decision on Liv events OGWR points.

If Liv events were receiving points he probably wouldn't be playing 7 weeks in a row I'm guessing.

A situation of their own making of course but a possible reason for 7 weeks on the bounce no less..
		
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I think it's absolutely the reason...
It does give the impression that GN told them all that ranking points would be on offer and is failing to deliver...and unless LIV change their format to take in the OWGR criteria ..they're not going to..so they'll all be chasing the points.
And that, I suspect, is not what the players expected...


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I think it's absolutely the reason...
It does give the impression that GN told them all that ranking points would be on offer and is failing to deliver...and unless LIV change their format to take in the OWGR criteria ..they're not going to..so they'll all be chasing the points.
And that, I suspect, is not what the players expected...
		
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These guys are professional golfers. Some of the most elite, well known golfers in the world. I'd be embarrassed for them if they were naive enough to simply take GN word for anything, unless it was solely related to LIV. As world ranking points are not controlled by LIV, but an outside body, surely they'd have done their due diligence and contacted the appropriate people as ask them to confirm? If they didn't, that is complete lack of professionalism. 

Even if they thought world ranking points would be on offer, they must have realised that they'd probably be minimal due to the small field and lack of quality? I mean, the poorer players might have been positive about it, but not the handful of top players. 

They had time to weigh up pros and cons. It is why most of them didn't just immediately sign up without hesitation. The pros were clearly the money. Playing less golf was also one, I can see characters like DJ liking that. The cons would clearly have been alienation from the PGA Tour (the PGA were clear on this), and clearly issues with World Ranking points. I'm sure we have been chatting about this for months, so I'm sure it must have been known to professional.players and their representatives. 

I agree with a lot of you, that I'm not bothered players joining LIV for the cash and playing less golf. But, they need to accept the consequences. If they have complete faith that LIV is great for golf and it is going to grow the game, they really have nothing to worry about. No need to fight and complain. They'll be pioneers, and LIV will start to naturally get ranking points as it becomes the amazing tour they tell.us it is.


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## IainP (Sep 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Patrick Reed for 1.
Now he's signed up for the Dunhill he's playing 7 weeks in a row.....Boston LIV, PGA, Chicago LIV,  French, Dunhill and then straight to the far East for a couple of Asian Tour events as per his LIV contract.....
Busy boy for someone who wants to spend less time out on Tour and more time at home....
		
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Thanks, yes he's the one I recalled also.
Certainly think he deserves the ribbing etc. for that. It will follow him around.
Reminds me of those footballers who each time they switch club kiss the badge and say it's the one they supported as a child 😆

So going for 2% of players said they wanted to play less then?


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## Slab (Sep 23, 2022)

Why am I seeing comments where the inference is that no LIV player has (or deserves) any right of appeal to any sanction or punishment meted out to them. I thought we done this already


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## IainP (Sep 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Mr. Norman goes to Washington.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...iv-golf-series-saudi-arabia-us-congress-visit


One legal expert interviewed by the Guardian said that business ventures that are owned by foreign governments do sometimes escape scrutiny, but not when they are owned by a nation’s sovereign wealth fund, and not when there are legitimate questions about whether the business also has public relations goals involving the country’s image abroad.
“I think there are a lot of signs that LIV is not a typical business interest. I think there are a lot of reasons for the DoJ to potentially kick tires on this. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did,” said Matt Sanderson, a lawyer at Caplin & Drysdale who specialises in Fara cases. Sanderson said it was also unclear whether LIV intended to make a profit in the long run, raising further questions about its intentions.
		
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When history looks back this may be viewed as another of GN's mistakes.
A high number of US Americans hold the principle of free competition, and capitalism highly. But also a high number of US Americans are very patriotic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 23, 2022)

Twitter is quite amusing right now 

All the LiV bots are going mental about the Presidents Cup

Complaining about none of the LiV players there , complaining about commercials and going mad at the PGAT

all a bit confusing - why are they bothered ? They have no interest in the PGAT who are the root of all evil 

They are just lack the self awareness of the reasons why the LiV players aren’t playing and just like Mel all the blame is on the PGAT and of course LIV have done nothing wrong 

It will be amazing the day one of them actually states - Yes we are in this situation because of the actions of LIV 

and they also don’t seem to be aware that commercials are needed for events when they aren’t backed by a bottomless pit of money.


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## Beezerk (Sep 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Twitter is quite amusing right now 

All the LiV bots are going mental about the Presidents Cup

Complaining about none of the LiV players there , complaining about commercials and going mad at the PGAT

all a bit confusing - why are they bothered ? They have no interest in the PGAT who are the root of all evil 

They are just lack the self awareness of the reasons why the LiV players aren’t playing and just like Mel all the blame is on the PGAT and of course LIV have done nothing wrong 

It will be amazing the day one of them actually states - Yes we are in this situation because of the actions of LIV 

and they also don’t seem to be aware that commercials are needed for events when they aren’t backed by a bottomless pit of money.
		
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Mate, you need to lay off Twitter for a while, it ain’t good for you.
Personal digs within you’re posts aren’t in the spirit of the forum imo 👍


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## Jacko_G (Sep 23, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Patrick Reed for 1.
Now he's signed up for the Dunhill he's playing 7 weeks in a row.....Boston LIV, PGA, Chicago LIV,  French, Dunhill and then straight to the far East for a couple of Asian Tour events as per his LIV contract.....
Busy boy for someone who wants to spend less time out on Tour and more time at home....
		
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To be fair to Reed he has been one of the few PGA players (not homegrown) has been a regular supporter of the European Tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 23, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Mate, you need to lay off Twitter for a while, it ain’t good for you.
Personal digs within you’re posts aren’t in the spirit of the forum imo 👍
		
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Twitter is funny , lots of knots being tied , a good laugh with my mate on there.  Also allows my stalker to stay hidden then report back 😂

and no Personal dig was made 🤷‍♂️ Mel does absolve all blame of the division and issues away from LIV. 



Jacko_G said:



			To be fair to Reed he has been one of the few PGA players (not homegrown) has been a regular supporter of the European Tour.
		
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Reed has played a lot more ET events than others , he also did state clearly that going to LIV was going to allow him to spend more time at home 🤷‍♂️

But it can filed alongside the players who said it’s not about the money etc when everyone knows the reason they moved is because of the money on offer for the amount of golf they will play. 

At least some of the players have been upfront and honest about it


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## pokerjoke (Sep 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Twitter is quite amusing right now

All the LiV bots are going mental about the Presidents Cup

Complaining about none of the LiV players there , complaining about commercials and going mad at the PGAT

all a bit confusing - why are they bothered ? They have no interest in the PGAT who are the root of all evil

They are just lack the self awareness of the reasons why the LiV players aren’t playing and just like Mel all the blame is on the PGAT and of course LIV have done nothing wrong

It will be amazing the day one of them actually states - Yes we are in this situation because of the actions of LIV

and they also don’t seem to be aware that commercials are needed for events when they aren’t backed by a bottomless pit of money.
		
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You’ve got no interest in Liv but you’ve been vocal now for the last 2 months solid.
Do you ever read back some of the crap you write.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 23, 2022)

Been told by my friend (Coach on tour) #ForReal
Intel on last 6 movers was spot on..

A top 5 player in OWGR going to Liv next..
Pretty easy to work out who it is...... If Intel is correct..
Patrick Cantlay??


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## Backsticks (Sep 23, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Been told by my friend (Coach on tour) #ForReal
Intel on last 6 movers was spot on..

A top 5 player in OWGR going to Liv next..
Pretty easy to work out who it is...... If Intel is correct..
Patrick Cantlay??
		
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Does the intel concur with the easy to work out who it is deduction ?
I dont know how to work it out.


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## Hoganman1 (Sep 23, 2022)

For me the majors are still the measuring stick for golf immortality. However, other events are gaining status like The Players and the FedEx Cup playoffs. If LIV survives I feel sure over time it will gain status as well. IMHO they need to expand the tournaments to 72 holes, drop the team thing and have more than 48 players competing. On the other hand maybe the format is what is attracting some fans, especially the younger generation. Many of us old guys are locked in on tradition. We grew up playing a game that can be stodgy at times. I think Tiger changed the game and made it more popular for the masses. When I first started playing and watching no one could have imagined things like the 16th hole in Phoenix, music in golf carts and Top Golf. Things always evolve and golf is not immune. I love the game and if LIV is the future, I'll learn to LIVe with it.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2022)

Hoganman1 said:



			For me the majors are still the measuring stick for golf immortality. However, other events are gaining status like The Players and the FedEx Cup playoffs. If LIV survives I feel sure over time it will gain status as well. IMHO they need to expand the tournaments to 72 holes, drop the team thing and have more than 48 players competing. On the other hand maybe the format is what is attracting some fans, especially the younger generation. Many of us old guys are locked in on tradition. We grew up playing a game that can be stodgy at times. I think Tiger changed the game and made it more popular for the masses. When I first started playing and watching no one could have imagined things like the 16th hole in Phoenix, music in golf carts and Top Golf. Things always evolve and golf is not immune.* I love the game and if LIV is the future, I'll learn to LIVe with it.*

Click to expand...

Absolutely. Like we've had to learn to live with Covid


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Does the intel concur with the easy to work out who it is deduction ?
I dont know how to work it out.
		
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Well it ain't Scottie, JT or Rory. 

Said Intel is led to believe its Cantlay and not Xander.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 23, 2022)

Really interesting to watch the stripe show podcast and find out Taylor Gooch was never supposed to end up permanently on Liv, well not straight away anyway. 

He went to London to see what it was like after being told he would receive a fine from the PGA Tour for teeing it up at Centurion but then go back to the PGAT. 

Then ended up in no man's land suspended from the PGAT with no contract with Liv either. 
Had no other choice, didn't get a signing on fee as they knew he was out of options. 

Sure the $5.8 million Liv prize money has softened the blow but it would appear it was not an informed career decision.


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## Backsticks (Sep 23, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Taylor Gooch was never supposed to end up permanently on Liv....
He went to London to see what it was like...
		
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Reminds of a line from The Big Big Theory.
Leonard has sex with a visiting professor, but protests "Come on, it wasnt my fault". Sheldon : "The implication being that you somehow tripped and fell into her lady parts? "


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 23, 2022)

Talking of majors......


Straight off the Livbot production line this one ;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573343356545277964


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## Backsticks (Sep 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Talking of majors......


Straight off the Livbot production line this one ;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573343356545277964

Click to expand...

Yes. Yes indeed. Rory McIlroy is the only golfer left on the PGAT who has won a major. Quite true...
....Ah....actually....is it, now that I come to think of it ?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes. Yes indeed. Rory McIlroy is the only golfer left on the PGAT who has won a major. Quite true...
....Ah....actually....is it, now that I come to think of it ?
		
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Did anybody suggest he was. 

Of course he could have been the guy at 68 days if he’d had a bit more luck, and his opponents hadn’t played quite so well at St Andrew’s……


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## JamesR (Sep 23, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Talking of majors......


Straight off the Livbot production line this one ;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573343356545277964

Click to expand...

Do you have the details for all the LIV players?
Westwood, Poulter for example?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 23, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Do you have the details for all the LIV players?
Westwood, Poulter for example?
		
Click to expand...

Give me 5 minutes while I log into LIVBOT Monthly, and I’ll ask the question….


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## Imurg (Sep 23, 2022)

If LIV wants to be taken seriously they need to stop the snipes and ignore snipes by PGAT...


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 24, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If LIV wants to be taken seriously they need to stop the snipes and ignore snipes by PGAT...
		
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It would be better for both tours if the sniping stopped on both sides. 

Doesn't reflect well on either


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## IainP (Sep 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			It would be better for both tours if the sniping stopped on both sides. 

Doesn't reflect well on either
		
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Agree. Think if you look at it neutrally it was mainly directed towards the new earlier on, and more recently has evened up. Outspoken players such as Mickleson, Rory, Reed, Horschel, Gooch become obvious targets for the 'fans' aligning themselves with one side or the other. Some blinkered views and selective stat picking abound. Unfortunately don't envisage it settling down for a while.


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## Backsticks (Sep 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			It would be better for both tours if the sniping stopped on both sides.

Doesn't reflect well on either
		
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War is hell.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2022)

One question that LIV need to answer if they want OWGR ranking points is "how can we award official world golf ranking points to your tour if you aren't allowing everyone on the OWGR ranking to play in your events?" If you want your players to earn OWGR points then surely everyone should have that opportunity not just those you want to invite.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 24, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			One question that LIV need to answer if they want OWGR ranking points is "how can we award official world golf ranking points to your tour if you aren't allowing everyone on the OWGR ranking to play in your events?" If you want your players to earn OWGR points then surely everyone should have that opportunity not just those you want to invite.
		
Click to expand...

They've already addressed this, it's been covered in this thread, at least a couple of times, but, as of 2023, any player can attempt to qualify for LIV if they wish.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They've already addressed this, it's been covered in this thread, at least a couple of times, but, as of 2023, any player can attempt to qualify for LIV if they wish.
		
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-relegation-promotion-qualifying-tournament/amp

Have the details actually been released about the “qualifying” tournament ? 

“the bottom four finishers in the 2023 year-long LIV standings will be relegated from the league, with three spots filled by a qualifying tournament called a "Promotions" event and the fourth going to the winner of the money list for the LIV International Series, which will be co-sanctioned by the Asian Tour and LIV Golf.” 

Which players can enter this qualifying tournament? 

And have they said which players are “exempt” from relegation ?


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 24, 2022)

Mito Pereira reported to have already signed for Liv
https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/rumour-presidents-cup-player-has-agreed-join-liv-golf


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## Backsticks (Sep 24, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Mito Pereira reported to have already signed for Liv
https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/rumour-presidents-cup-player-has-agreed-join-liv-golf

Click to expand...

Liv clearly struggling then, and going for a second division feel to it. Clearly offering higher ranked players than the world tour, but lower class wins than it due to the small field/easier wins, and the exhibition vibe to it. PGAT still a clear first division. If that sustains, the risk for LIv is that it moves ever closer to an early champions tour.


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## C7usk (Sep 24, 2022)

I see Saudi have a football friendly with USA on Tuesday... In Spain 🤷‍♂️...


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Liv clearly struggling then, and going for a second division feel to it. Clearly offering higher ranked players than the world tour, but lower class wins than it due to the small field/easier wins, and the exhibition vibe to it. PGAT still a clear first division. If that sustains, the risk for LIv is that it moves ever closer to an early champions tour.
		
Click to expand...


Hmmmm
Top 5 player in the world also rumoured to be going in the next wave.


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## Backsticks (Sep 25, 2022)

While one might listen to someone claiming to like the key golfing elements of the Liv proposal : team golf, 54 holes, shotgun start, one has to question the basis for the support when the claims, from supposed disinterested ordinary golf fans, strays beyond the golf.

When the above elements, and even the peripheral or temporary ones ; youtube, LOUDER, less US based in theory anyway, are all cited as improvements over the current tours offerings, credibility is stretched.

But a breaking point is reached, when the above are combined with a raft of points that are of no relevance, or even known, to the average, even keen, golf fan.
Being pro LIV because
- it sticks it to the PGAT
- because the PGAT has non profit tax status
- going for personal attacks on Monaghan and even childish name punning
- claiming it is sorting an abusive situation for pgat caddies as if they are Victorian child chimney sweeps
- jibes about the pay of its directors and travel protocols
- that GN is a great guy who just wants to spread the gospel of golf and 'grow the game' worldwide
- that the pgat is an anti competitive monopoly that wont share its members with other business ventures and thus is evil

... strongly suggest an agenda, and not simply the observations of a casual fan.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			While one might listen to someone claiming to like the key golfing elements of the Liv proposal : team golf, 54 holes, shotgun start, one has to question the basis for the support when the claims, from supposed disinterested ordinary golf fans, strays beyond the golf.

When the above elements, and even the peripheral or temporary ones ; youtube, LOUDER, less US based in theory anyway, are all cited as improvements over the current tours offerings, credibility is stretched.

But a breaking point is reached, when the above are combined with a raft of points that are of no relevance, or even known, to the average, even keen, golf fan.
Being pro LIV because
- it sticks it to the PGAT
- because the PGAT has non profit tax status
- going for personal attacks on Monaghan and even childish name punning
- claiming it is sorting an abusive situation for pgat caddies as if they are Victorian child chimney sweeps
- jibes about the pay of its directors and travel protocols
- that GN is a great guy who just wants to spread the gospel of golf and 'grow the game' worldwide
- that the pgat is an anti competitive monopoly that wont share its members with other business ventures and thus is evil

... strongly suggest an agenda, and not simply the observations of a casual fan.
		
Click to expand...

Wow #really


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## Backsticks (Sep 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Wow #really
		
Click to expand...

Before Liv came on the scene, was anyone really anti-PGAT ?
Or did that trend only arise because the PGAT hasnt facilitated LIV to do as it wishes ?

As in - better conditions for caddies. Had ANYONE heard about that as an issue that needed improvement ?


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## IainP (Sep 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Liv clearly struggling then, and going for a second division feel to it. Clearly offering higher ranked players than the world tour, but lower class wins than it due to the small field/easier wins, and the exhibition vibe to it. PGAT still a clear first division. If that sustains, the risk for LIv is that it *moves ever closer to an early champions tour*.
		
Click to expand...

Confess slightly struggling to link up _possibly_ adding a 27 year old with moving to early champions tour 🤔

Was the goal to be the "first division" with only 48 players? I suspect the short term goal may have been to have comparatively strong fields for the weekends scheduled. Neither of us were in the meetings though 😁😉


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			Confess slightly struggling to link up _possibly_ adding a 27 year old with moving to early champions tour 🤔

Was the goal to be the "first division" with only 48 players? I suspect the short term goal may have been to have comparatively strong fields for the weekends scheduled. Neither of us were in the meetings though 😁😉
		
Click to expand...

I think the goal was to drag as many of the top players as possible over. If they had succeeded then the LIV tour would have been slowly expanded to bigger fields so that they effectively knocked the PGA Tour off of its perch. It comes across as Norman trying to spite the PGA Tour by any means possible rather than an attempt to seriously grow the game or treat downtrodden caddies more fairly.


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## Backsticks (Sep 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think the goal was to drag as many of the top players as possible over. If they had succeeded then the LIV tour would have been slowly expanded to bigger fields so that they effectively knocked the PGA Tour off of its perch. It comes across as Norman trying to spite the PGA Tour by any means possible rather than an attempt to seriously grow the game or treat downtrodden caddies more fairly.
		
Click to expand...

I thought one of their things/'improvements' was to be the smaller field of 50 or so. Or was that just a short term expediency to get up and running, and then expand to 120 or a typical tournament? Kill the pgat off by poaching the top 50 ideally, then the rest will follow naturally?


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## JamesR (Sep 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Before Liv came on the scene, was anyone really anti-PGAT ?
Or did that trend only arise because the PGAT hasnt facilitated LIV to do as it wishes ?

As in - better conditions for caddies. Had ANYONE heard about that as an issue that needed improvement ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I was aware of issues with caddy treatment at PGA tour events, and it’s been an issue for quite a few years.

That’s not to say the players couldn’t have fought harder for their “men” if they cared that much.


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## IainP (Sep 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think the goal was to drag as many of the top players as possible over. If they had succeeded then the LIV tour would have been slowly expanded to bigger fields so that they effectively knocked the PGA Tour off of its perch. It comes across as Norman trying to spite the PGA Tour by any means possible rather than an attempt to seriously grow the game or treat downtrodden caddies more fairly.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, as previously discussed the "pipedream plan" seemed to be to have the top players with them & also competing on PGAT. To most that clearly wasn't going to happen. 
Now 'hostilities' are in place I've seen a bit of speculation about increasing fields, or extra leagues but nothing of substance. The investment/partnership with Asian tour suggested to me that wasn't the plan. But who knows.
It is clear GN has the historical chip on, but not sure he ultimately really has much decision power on that scale. We'll see I guess.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I thought one of their things/'improvements' was to be the smaller field of 50 or so. Or was that just a short term expediency to get up and running, and then expand to 120 or a typical tournament? Kill the pgat off by poaching the top 50 ideally, then the rest will follow naturally?
		
Click to expand...

That’s what I was thinking.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			While one might listen to someone claiming to like the key golfing elements of the Liv proposal : team golf, 54 holes, shotgun start, one has to question the basis for the support when the claims, from supposed disinterested ordinary golf fans, strays beyond the golf.

When the above elements, and even the peripheral or temporary ones ; youtube, LOUDER, less US based in theory anyway, are all cited as improvements over the current tours offerings, credibility is stretched.

But a breaking point is reached, when the above are combined with a raft of points that are of no relevance, or even known, to the average, even keen, golf fan.
Being pro LIV because
- it sticks it to the PGAT
- because the PGAT has non profit tax status
- going for personal attacks on Monaghan and even childish name punning
- claiming it is sorting an abusive situation for pgat caddies as if they are Victorian child chimney sweeps
- jibes about the pay of its directors and travel protocols
- that GN is a great guy who just wants to spread the gospel of golf and 'grow the game' worldwide
- that the pgat is an anti competitive monopoly that wont share its members with other business ventures and thus is evil

... strongly suggest an agenda, and not simply the observations of a casual fan.
		
Click to expand...

Strongly suggests your own point of view you're painting as a basis of facts.

😴


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## Jacko_G (Sep 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Before Liv came on the scene, was anyone really anti-PGAT ?
Or did that trend only arise because the PGAT hasnt facilitated LIV to do as it wishes ?

As in - better conditions for caddies. Had ANYONE heard about that as an issue that needed improvement ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - it's boring. Yes it's well known in the golfing circles re caddies. 

Once again the ladies golf for me was the best viewing of all the tournaments played.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574434890598203395


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## Backsticks (Sep 26, 2022)

But but but. What about the imminent announcement of a top 5 defector ? 

How can no new announcements be spun as good news for LIV ? 

Is the war really over ? The usurper has been defeated ?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574434890598203395

Click to expand...

Have you not read the article that explains why they won't be announced until 2023 Phil?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you not read the article that explains why they won't be announced until 2023 Phil?
		
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Which article 🤷‍♂️

The one that claims that players are only going to move when they get enough ranking points to qualify for majors next year ?

The one claiming Rahm and Matsuyama are joining ( again )

The one claiming the “roster” is full next year ?

It’s hard to filter out the right article 

At the moment most of the talk from LIV accounts is all about how bad the Presidents Cup was 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which article 🤷‍♂️

The one that claims that players are only going to move when they get enough ranking points to qualify for majors next year ?

The one claiming Rahm and Matsuyama are joining ( again )

The one claiming the “roster” is full next year ?

It’s hard to filter out the right article

At the moment most of the talk from LIV accounts is all about how bad the Presidents Cup was 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

If they move in 2023, they'll accumulate enough points to gain entry to the majors in 2024. 

That's (apparently) the reason why.
It would certainly make sense.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If they move in 2023, they'll accumulate enough points to gain entry to the majors in 2024.

That's (apparently) the reason why.
It would certainly make sense.
		
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I’m guessing you mean the majors in 2023

Entry for Masters 2023 via ranking points is top 50 at 31 Dec 2022 and then end of March 2023

Open is around June ranking 

US Open is around May 

same for US PGA 

By the time the majors qualifying for 2024 comes around and if LIV don’t have points then they drop 

But how does that stop the likes of Rahm and Matsuyama from joining ( both claimed to be ) when they have exemptions through to 2025 and 2026 ?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing you mean the majors in 2023

Entry for Masters 2023 via ranking points is top 50 at 31 Dec 2022 and then end of March 2023

Open is around June ranking

US Open is around May

same for US PGA

By the time the majors qualifying for 2024 comes around and if LIV don’t have points then they drop

But how does that stop the likes of Rahm and Matsuyama from joining ( both claimed to be ) when they have exemptions through to 2025 and 2026 ?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/...dt3AfnzeFt_7S3KzT8adIdQ9AE_j7s3pbyzwHnXb7_cQE


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/...dt3AfnzeFt_7S3KzT8adIdQ9AE_j7s3pbyzwHnXb7_cQE

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They need to do their maths better , it doesn’t take much for the players rankings to drop - it may even happen if they get some level of points with LIV 

But as I said - how is that stopping the likes of Rahm and the always rumoured Matsuyama?


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They need to do their maths better , it doesn’t take much for the players rankings to drop - it may even happen if they get some level of points with LIV

But as I said - how is that stopping the likes of Rahm and the always rumoured Matsuyama?
		
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It's not stopping Rahm and Matsuyama - Rahm was rumoured briefly, and Matsuyama looked like he was interested but decided not to move, yet. 

As for OWGR points, the only place you can now accumulate enough to get up the rankings is in America, which is great for the PGA Tour right?, except it means that the likes of the future Tom Kim's etc are now increasingly likely to be stuck on their own tours - for longer. Now obviously this wouldn't be a problem, if there wasn't another series with strong links to that area now in place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's not stopping Rahm and Matsuyama - Rahm was rumoured briefly, and Matsuyama looked like he was interested but decided not to move, yet.

As for OWGR points, the only place you can now accumulate enough to get up the rankings is in America, which is great for the PGA Tour right?, except it means that the likes of the future Tom Kim's etc are now increasingly likely to be stuck on their own tours - for longer. Now obviously this wouldn't be a problem, if there wasn't another series with strong links to that area now in place.
		
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Surely Tom Kim has shown them how they can all move forward ? 

Play well on home tournaments and money list which gave him entry into Scottish Open and also The Open 

He did well in the The Open which gave him entry into a PGAT event - he continued to play well gaining his tour card , then he won to give him an exemption for a number of years , he ended up in the Presidents Cup and became one of the stars of the week and the name on everyone’s lips 

So how is that them being “stuck” ?

It shows that if you play well you get the rewards through the sport 

he will now along with the likes of KH Lee and Si Woo inspire a generation of golfers by showcasing themselves at the highest level


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely Tom Kim has shown them how they can all move forward ?

Play well on home tournaments and money list which gave him entry into Scottish Open and also The Open

He did well in the The Open which gave him entry into a PGAT event - he continued to play well gaining his tour card , then he won to give him an exemption for a number of years , he ended up in the Presidents Cup and became one of the stars of the week and the name on everyone’s lips

So how is that them being “stuck” ?

It shows that if you play well you get the rewards through the sport

he will now along with the likes of KH Lee and Si Woo inspire a generation of golfers by showcasing themselves at the highest level
		
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Correct, he'll inspire a generation of Asian golfers, who will be picked up through the agreements with LIV on the Asian Tour, unless of course, the PGA Tour can cherry pick the ones they think will be succesful. Of course, what the PGA Tour can't do is start handing out spots to players from all over the world, because that would completely undermine the credibility of the OWGR - wouldn't it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Correct, he'll inspire a generation of Asian golfers, who will be picked up through the agreements with LIV on the Asian Tour, unless of course, the PGA Tour can cherry pick the ones they think will be succesful. Of course, what the PGA Tour can't do is start handing out spots to players from all over the world, because that would completely undermine the credibility of the OWGR - wouldn't it?
		
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Why will they go to LIV 🤷‍♂️ , surely if they are inspired by Kim the last place they will go is LIV ? 

Kim has shown what players can do if they perform well , Kim earned his spot - and there are multiple spots in a number of PGAT events given to players who perform well in events from around the world. How does that undermine the World Rankings ? There are also many other ways for a player to qualify for events on many of the tours


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will they go to LIV 🤷‍♂️ , surely if they are inspired by Kim the last place they will go is LIV ?

Kim has shown what players can do if they perform well , Kim earned his spot - and there are multiple spots in a number of PGAT events given to players who perform well in events from around the world. How does that undermine the World Rankings ? There are also many other ways for a player to qualify for events on many of the tours
		
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But the players outside of the US won't even get on the radar based on OWGR points, so they'll need to win events, and if that happens to be on the Asian Tour, there is a working relationship between the Asian Tour and LIV as there is between the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour. Some may go to the PGA, some may go to the LIV series, but they wont all go to the PGA Tour, and that means that the PGA Tour will potentially further miss out on some top players. Are the PGA Tour going to take a punt on every Asian Tour (or any other tour for that matter) winner? They simply can't and some of those winners will have abysmal OWGR rankings, thanks to the new system.

Why will they go to LIV? More guaranteed money, still able to compete on their home tours, less time away from home - there are legitimate reasons - even though you will deny them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But the players outside of the US won't even get on the radar based on OWGR points, so they'll need to win events, and if that happens to be on the Asian Tour, there is a working relationship between the Asian Tour and LIV as there is between the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour. Some may go to the PGA, some may go to the LIV series, but they wont all go to the PGA Tour, and that means that the PGA Tour will potentially further miss out on some top players. Are the PGA Tour going to take a punt on every Asian Tour (or any other tour for that matter) winner? They simply can't and some of those winners will have abysmal OWGR rankings, thanks to the new system.
		
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Kim didn’t get invites to ET and PGA events based on world rankings 🤦‍♂️

Have you even bothered to look and see what invites the players get when they do well on home tours and it’s got sweet FA to do with World Ranking points

Winners of money lists , various tournaments, high finishes in events and also Co sanctioned events can help players get into - majors and other ET or PGA events

It doesn’t matter what their world ranking is if they finish in a spot that gives them an invite to various events - stop being fixated on ranking points. There are so many other ways to get into tournaments than just ranking points.




			Why will they go to LIV? More guaranteed money, still able to compete on their home tours, less time away from home - there are legitimate reasons - even though you will deny them.
		
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More guaranteed money - yes

Less time away from home - 🤔 aren’t most of the LIV events based in the US ? That’s going to be a heck of a lot of travel going back and forth between the LIV events and their home tour is it not ?


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## IainP (Sep 26, 2022)

See the "bots" have been busy on here tonight   😉😁

Mel IMO LIV is very weak on qualification currently. Yes the PGAT is ultimately geared to aid US success but the pathways do exist and it remains the 'safe' option for most

Phil IMO post 7182 just a rehash of the July statement, so a case of 'nothing (new) to see here', for me


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574434890598203395

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So new signings for Liv are coming from the PGAT but just not going to be announced till early 2023..

The PGAT needs to stop the flow of players making Liv stronger not just have it delayed


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So new signings for Liv are coming from the PGAT but just not going to be announced till early 2023..

The PGAT needs to stop the flow of players making Liv stronger not just have it delayed
		
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When it comes down to the amount of money being “guaranteed” to the players then it’s hard for the PGAT to stop players leaving. 

What can the PGAT actually do ? They aren’t going to counter offer and give players guaranteed money and there is already a lot of money on offer for the players


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes down to the amount of money being “guaranteed” to the players then it’s hard for the PGAT to stop players leaving.

*What can the PGAT actually do ? *They aren’t going to counter offer and give players guaranteed money and there is already a lot of money on offer for the players
		
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They could allow their players to play on both tours..... Because they all absolutely would


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They could allow their players to play on both tours..... Because they all absolutely would
		
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That's a lot of playing

Players on the LIV Tour HAVE to play all 14 events, to keep your PGA Tour Card they would have to play 15 events across the years. That would mean 29 weeks of playing on both tours. Also bearing in mind that some of the LIV events will be at the same time as the bigger PGAT tournaments, then what. By contract the players have to play all LIV events, so the PGA would have to allow them to not play in flagship events so they can play LIV events.

Add in the 4 majors, that is 33 weeks of the year, that doesn't leave a lot of time for rescheduling.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			That's a lot of playing

Players on the LIV Tour HAVE to play all 14 events, to keep your PGA Tour Card they would have to play 15 events across the years. That would mean 29 weeks of playing on both tours. Also bearing in mind that some of the LIV events will be at the same time as the bigger PGAT tournaments, then what. By contract the players have to play all LIV events, so the PGA would have to allow them to not play in flagship events so they can play LIV events.

Add in the 4 majors, that is 33 weeks of the year, that doesn't leave a lot of time for rescheduling.
		
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Quite literally everything can be changed though. In such a short frame of time too


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They could allow their players to play on both tours..... Because they all absolutely would
		
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Why would they do that when they would then see a flood of their best players leaving ? 

Who would that benefit ? Certainly wouldn’t be the PGAT


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Quite literally everything can be changed though. In such a short frame of time too
		
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Can it, that would require changing all contracts, unlikely this can be done unilaterally, so will require all parties to agree to the changes (i.e. it is a contractual stipulation in LIV that they play all events) this is no easy business as this would open up renegotiations on pretty much every matter.

Also what do the tours get out of it. LIV have spent billions of dollars attracting the players and getting set up, they want their players to play in every event, they won't want them going onto the PGAT, as far they are concerned the players are now their intellectual property, if LIV do want to do that chances are they would want some of the money back from the players, and would the players want to stay if that was the case.

what do the PGAT get out of the agreement, essentially saying it's okay to leave the tour for a rival, as you still get to play on the PGAT win money and get ranking points that could go to a loyal member.

Frankly the two tours are pulling in opposite directions, by their nature they have to be mutually exclusive


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## GB72 (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would they do that when they would then see a flood of their best players leaving ?

Who would that benefit ? Certainly wouldn’t be the PGAT
		
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Surely that is the whole point of them playing in both though, it would see exactly nobody would leave as they would play on both tours. A negotiated schedule with the PGA Tour stipulating the events they want certain golfers at, the PGA Tour get full fields at the events they want, LIV gets its tournaments with top fields, the whole image of golf increases and we move away from the path of mutually assured destruction that we are on at the moment. I am not seeing many downsides there.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Surely that is the whole point of them playing in both though, it would see exactly nobody would leave as they would play on both tours. A negotiated schedule with the PGA Tour stipulating the events they want certain golfers at, the PGA Tour get full fields at the events they want, LIV gets its tournaments with top fields, the whole image of golf increases and we move away from the path of mutually assured destruction that we are on at the moment. I am not seeing many downsides there.
		
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surely LIV would then want their money back, I doubt they would pay players $100m if they are playing on the PGAT as much as LIV


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			surely LIV would then want their money back, I doubt they would pay players $100m if they are playing on the PGAT as much as LIV
		
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They literally had that scenario in mind, the LIV calendar is such that it doesn’t tread on the toes of the PGA tour.

There has been nothing from LIV at all, to stipulate players can’t play on an other tour.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They could allow their players to play on both tours..... Because they all absolutely would
		
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What, all the players who left to get a shorter schedule and more family time would sign up to double their workload for very little extra cash in comparison to their guaranteed signing on cash from LIV? I’m not seeing it.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They literally had that scenario in mind, the LIV calendar is such that it doesn’t tread on the toes of the PGA tour.

There has been nothing from LIV at all, to stipulate players can’t play on an other tour.
		
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That still does not counter that the contracts say the have to play all 14 LIV events, to keep their Tour cards they have to play 15 PGA event, which I think is going up to 16, that's 30 weeks of the year. Unless LIV were expecting their players to be able to play PGA Tour events, with no tour card, and can just pick and choose which events they can play on the PGAT. How would you expect the PGAT to respond, another tour poaches their players and then says it's okay they can still play on your tour but only when they want to


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would they do that when they would then see a flood of their best players leaving ?

Who would that benefit ? Certainly wouldn’t be the PGAT
		
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Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example? 

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit. 

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!


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## PieMan (Sep 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, all the players who left to get a shorter schedule and more family time would sign up to double their workload for very little extra cash in comparison to their guaranteed signing on cash from LIV? I’m not seeing it.
		
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It's not about the players though Rich - what about the LIV caddies who were so poorly treated on the PGA Tour? Now that they're used to the finer things in life, like travelling on the LIV jet, they'd probably refuse to carry the bags for their players at PGAT events!!
#loadedloopers


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example?

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit.

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!
		
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The PGA do lose out, they get their players back for a few tournaments? That's it and they should be grateful


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Can it, that would require changing all contracts, unlikely this can be done unilaterally, so will require all parties to agree to the changes (i.e. it is a contractual stipulation in LIV that they play all events) this is no easy business as this would open up renegotiations on pretty much every matter.

Also what do the tours get out of it. LIV have spent billions of dollars attracting the players and getting set up, they want their players to play in every event, they won't want them going onto the PGAT, as far they are concerned the players are now their intellectual property, if LIV do want to do that chances are they would want some of the money back from the players, and would the players want to stay if that was the case.

what do the PGAT get out of the agreement, essentially saying it's okay to leave the tour for a rival, as you still get to play on the PGAT win money and get ranking points that could go to a loyal member.

*Frankly the two tours are pulling in opposite directions, by their nature they have to be mutually exclusive*

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If the PGA tour can work alongside other major tours, why is LIV the exception? They can absolutely work together for a solution. Seems you're just stuck in that mentality.


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			If the PGA tour can work alongside other major tours, why is LIV the exception? They can absolutely work together for a solution. Seems you're just stuck in that mentality.
		
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because the other tours work in a completely different way to LIV


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			surely LIV would then want their money back, I doubt they would pay players $100m if they are playing on the PGAT as much as LIV
		
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Should they ever manage a merger - 

I'm sure LIV could absorb the money lost. Effectively its an investment they made which eventually enabled them a seat at the table with the PGA tour and the players also still play their tournament?

They never would get that seat if they didn't sign all these players.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			because the other tours work in a completely different way to LIV
		
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Yes they're all longer as they play for 4 days.

Other than that, what's the difference between LIV London and the Italian Open - besides qualification as obviously in a merger that would be addressed?


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## r0wly86 (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Should they ever manage a merger -

I'm sure LIV could absorb the money lost. Effectively its an investment they made which eventually enabled them a seat at the table with the PGA tour and the players also still play their tournament?

They never would get that seat if they didn't sign all these players.
		
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That is fanciful thinking


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			That is fanciful thinking
		
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A merger in general is fanciful thinking at this stage, but it doesn't mean it isn't feasibly possible. 

Sheik Mansour has invested Billions to make Man City relevant and still not won a CL - LIV's initial investment is simply that, if it gets a foot in the door a couple billion is nothing to these people. 

A seat at the table of professional golf for the years to come is worth more than a couple of billion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Surely that is the whole point of them playing in both though, it would see exactly nobody would leave as they would play on both tours. A negotiated schedule with the PGA Tour stipulating the events they want certain golfers at, the PGA Tour get full fields at the events they want, LIV gets its tournaments with top fields, the whole image of golf increases and we move away from the path of mutually assured destruction that we are on at the moment. I am not seeing many downsides there.
		
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So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players. 

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ? 

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.



Bdill93 said:



			Well for one, they wouldn't be leaving, they'd be playing on multiple tours just like they do now. Rory has been in Europe for a few weeks and not the PGA tour? Whys that any different to Wolff playing LIV one week instead of the forneit championship for example?

I disagree that the PGA tour doesn't benefit.

PGA tour get back Cam Smith, BDC, Koepka, Reed, DJ and plenty of other big names they've lost. A year ago, Bryson was the biggest pull in golf!
		
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Can you not see the issues ?

European and PGAT have two different markets 

The main people that will benefit will be rich players 

LIV contracts mean they have to play LIV events - they can’t pick to play in a PGAT event if a LIV event is happening - so they are restricted to events only when a LIV event isn’t happening.


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## GB72 (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players.

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ?

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.
		
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That will be the negotiated schedule I mentioned. Maybe the coexistence of the 2 tours actually raises the profile of golf globally and attracts new sponsors. You will neer find a solution if you keep looking for problems instead of solutions.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically you end up with events that clash with LIV events with none of the top players ? What happens with those events ? Start to lose sponsors and events struggle - basically you end up with events only for top players.

And which players will be allowed to go to LIV ?

It’s not like it’s just 3 or 4 events - there are over 14 events on LIV alone , plus the Asian international events they have been asked to play.



Can you not see the issues ?

European and PGAT have two different markets

The main people that will benefit will be rich players

*LIV contracts mean they have to play LIV events - they can’t pick to play in a PGAT event if a LIV event is happening - so they are restricted to events only when a LIV event isn’t happening*.
		
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Yes right now they do. But they can easily plan events around the biggest 20 events on the PGAT on LIV. There is no great LIV history yet so it can all be re-written. 

LIV can also amend the contract to free up players should they wish to create space for other tour players to come to a LIV event. If they wanted to merge with the PGAT, it wouldn't come without wiggle room. Players Championship weekend for example would obviously never also concurrently hold a LIV event if they merged. But again that's a piece of cake to arrange really. 

Also - its not like the PGA tour gets insane fields every week currently? https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/fortinet-championship/field.html - not exactly a load of household names but I've not read that Fortinet aren't sponsoring the event again?

Does just feel like the guys against LIV on page 1 on this thread simply have not changed their minds at all which is fine, but plenty of others have. And significantly, plenty of top top golfers.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When it comes down to the amount of money being “guaranteed” to the players then it’s hard for the PGAT to stop players leaving. 

What can the PGAT actually do ? They aren’t going to counter offer and give players guaranteed money and there is already a lot of money on offer for the players
		
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Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way. 

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour. 

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction


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## GB72 (Sep 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way.

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour.

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction
		
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Agree with your last comment. Same with any business. If I am starting up a new company, I know that I would have to offer the best staff well in excess of what the existing and established companies pay for them to take the gamble of moving to my company with an unproven track record. I am somewhat surprsed that this has been seen as a shock or an issue as it is a relatively standard business practice


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Your right it's very hard for them to stop it... They are going to continue to be seen to lose players and Liv will continue to be perceived as getting stronger each time a player moves.

Their (PGAT) stance has largely led to this, easy in hindsight of course but had they talked with Liv at the start when they held all the cards they could have held onto all players and the majority of the main season and Liv would have followed after.

Now Liv has got to a position of strength in their product where they feel they dont need to even sit down with them now and it would appear they know more top players are on the way.

Unfortunately for the golf fan it looks like we are in for a fractured professional game for the foreseeable future and that is something that is very sad but it's not right to put all that blame on Liv just because they started a new tour.

Liv knew the PGAT was so strong and the only way to get top players was to offer them more financial return, there was no other way to get quick traction
		
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The PGAT is going to look after it’s own tour

LIV is a tour that is in direct competition to PGAT events - they aren’t going to help facilitate a rival tour that is based in the US

It’s not beneficial for them

And I don’t think LIV are in that strong of a position for one thing - access to majors , there are guys that are exempt but there will be a number that need the ranking points etc to gain entry

Yep they are stronger financially at the moment and the players that would like that level of finances will go but not many of them - at the moment PGAT have most of the top 50 players and even if a couple more leave they will still be in stronger position

At some point LIV will need look at how they progress -will it be sustainable or will the PIF constantly fund it ?


What happens if they decided to stop funding it directly ?
Still a lot of unknowns that mean many of the top players will stay on the PGAT



Bdill93 said:



			Yes right now they do. But they can easily plan events around the biggest 20 events on the PGAT on LIV. There is no great LIV history yet so it can all be re-written.

LIV can also amend the contract to free up players should they wish to create space for other tour players to come to a LIV event. If they wanted to merge with the PGAT, it wouldn't come without wiggle room. Players Championship weekend for example would obviously never also concurrently hold a LIV event if they merged. But again that's a piece of cake to arrange really.

Also - its not like the PGA tour gets insane fields every week currently? https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/fortinet-championship/field.html - not exactly a load of household names but I've not read that Fortinet aren't sponsoring the event again?

Does just feel like the guys against LIV on page 1 on this thread simply have not changed their minds at all which is fine, but plenty of others have. And significantly, plenty of top top golfers.
		
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Do you really think that LIV are going to give these golfers guaranteed money and on a contract and then let them miss LIV events to play in PGAT events ? With 14 events planned then there are going to be many clashes 

The players who have gone to LIv on contracts are now under LIV control - they will have to play where LIV demand they play 

it’s far from as simple as you suggest


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## Backsticks (Sep 27, 2022)

For sure the PGAT are behaving unreasonably on this. Any other decent business would let a competitor have access to its key attractions.

If Pepsi were struggling in some market because customers preferred Coke, and they went to Coca Cola saying : can we have the Coke formula please, and sell that in Pepsi bottles, Coke would be fine with it, and give them the formula. They just want people to enjoy refreshing drinks. 

Or if Samsung went to Apple saying: people love your phone OS, and we could sell more hardware if we could put Apple software on our hardware instead of Android, Apple would say, sure here's the code, our goal is just to grow mobile phone usage and for people to experience great tech.

But the PGAT just doesnt seem to think like that.


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## GB72 (Sep 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			For sure the PGAT are behaving unreasonably on this. Any other decent business would let a competitor have access to its key attractions.

If Pepsi were struggling in some market because customers preferred Coke, and they went to Coca Cola saying : can we have the Coke formula please, and sell that in Pepsi bottles, Coke would be fine with it, and give them the formula. They just want people to enjoy refreshing drinks.

Or if Samsung went to Apple saying: people love your phone OS, and we could sell more hardware if we could put Apple software on our hardware instead of Android, Apple would say, sure here's the code, our goal is just to grow mobile phone usage and for people to experience great tech.

But the PGAT just doesnt seem to think like that.
		
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Not sure I get the analogy between copyrighted or patented products and a sport. Are you saying that nobody else should be able to play professional golf is not PGA Tour affiliated. To use your analogy, what we need is a situation where Pepsi and Coke both sell in the same market with excellent products that increase the market share for Cola in general. On your other analogy, Windows, Android and any number of companies do very well out of putting their product in other people's hardware as they understand that there is a mutually beneficial goal from ensuring the general spread and proliferation of a product no matter who is selling it. Android event lets companies put skins over their product so it seems to be theirs. 

Personally, I would be happy for both sides to fail as I think that they are both pretty rotten to the core but, as things stand, we have to organisations happy to go to mutually assured distruction if it causes the other to fail and plenty of people supporting that on both sides.


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## Bamberdele2.0 (Sep 27, 2022)

Would anyone be able to break down all the 7,225 posts of this thread into a couple of short paragraphs that would be a nice easy read for someone starting from page one today?

Asking for a friend


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## Jacko_G (Sep 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, all the players who left to get a shorter schedule and more family time would sign up to double their workload for very little extra cash in comparison to their guaranteed signing on cash from LIV? I’m not seeing it.
		
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Nobody would double anything. Freedom of choice to select what events you wish to play. 

It's really what should have been done from the start rather than toys out of the pram approach. Sadly both Tours appear to far apart and too fractured to come to any agreement or compromise now. 

I'm certainly no legal expert and perhaps more intelligent people than me can answer this. How does this whole situation compare to "Bosman" restrictions of trade etc? Freedom of movement (between Tours)? If it's allowed between Europe and US why not Liv?


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## GB72 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Nobody would double anything. Freedom of choice to select what events you wish to play.

It's really what should have been done from the start rather than toys out of the pram approach. Sadly both Tours appear to far apart and too fractured to come to any agreement or compromise now.

I'm certainly no legal expert and perhaps more intelligent people than me can answer this. How does this whole situation compare to "Bosman" restrictions of trade etc? Freedom of movement (between Tours)? If it's allowed between Europe and US why not Liv?
		
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Not sure that we are in the same territory here. Bosman, from what I recall, revolved around clubs holding on to player registrations at the end of contracts so as they could not move on a free at the end of their transfer. The clubs could hold them to ransom and prevent theim playing elesewhere even when their contract ended. Nobody is preventing anyone playing on either tour but they want exclusivity so not a restraint of trade as such. Sadly we now have a case where we just have to see which holds out londer, the PGA tour pigheadedness or the LIV Tour wallet. There will be casualties along the way I am sure. The only other method of outright victory is for the LIV Tour to sign up enough of the top 50 golfers to make the PGA Tour and irrelevance. As I said, as we stand only one is coming out of this alive


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Nobody would double anything. Freedom of choice to select what events you wish to play.

It's really what should have been done from the start rather than toys out of the pram approach. Sadly both Tours appear to far apart and too fractured to come to any agreement or compromise now.

I'm certainly no legal expert and perhaps more intelligent people than me can answer this. How does this whole situation compare to "Bosman" restrictions of trade etc? Freedom of movement (between Tours)? If it's allowed between Europe and US why not Liv?
		
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The issue is all the current tours including LIV have a minimum numbers of tournaments they must play in to keep their membership/card

LIV next year they have to play in every single event - PGAT and the other tours there are minimums that a player must play to keep their card

They aren’t going to change that because it would be Tour suicide

And there is no “restriction” of trade - it’s about membership , if someone wants to be a member of any of the tours then there are membership rules to follow. If they don’t want to follow those then the players are free to go and play on any of the other tours they qualify for.

As example can some play for Chelsea one day and then Liverpool the next and then back to Chelsea ? Nope because they are under contract.

Current PGAT rules allow for players to be able to play tours on other “continents” - for tournaments within the US they are required to request for a release


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## Imurg (Sep 27, 2022)

The LIV lawsuit is falling apart..
Only Matt Jones, Peter Uihlein and Bryson left....all the rest have pulled out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The LIV lawsuit is falling apart..
Only Matt Jones, Peter Uihlein and Bryson left....all the rest have pulled out.

Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574786086957613064


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## Imurg (Sep 27, 2022)

Maybe they don't want have to answer potentially "difficult" questions.?


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## IainP (Sep 27, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The LIV lawsuit is falling apart..
Only Matt Jones, Peter Uihlein and Bryson left....all the rest have pulled out.

Click to expand...

Personally I feel it would be best if all the players stay/pull out and leave it to the administrators.
A couple of weeks back..

Mickelson said: “Now that LIV is involved, it’s not necessary for me to be involved. I currently still am. I don’t know what I’m going to do, really. The only reason for me to stay in it is damages, which I don’t really want or need anything."

Mind, not everyone has his cash 😯


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## IainP (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would they do that when they would then see a flood of their best players leaving ?

Who would that benefit ? Certainly wouldn’t be the PGAT
		
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To be fair the question you asked was -
  What can the PGAT actually do ?

The answer didn’t need to be palatable to you or Jay, doesn’t make it an invalid answer though.

I think you recently argued strongly (& convincingly I thought) on the strength of the DPWT  - yet they have what, a minimum of 4 tournaments a year. 

So could the PGAT drop the min reqs, of course they could.(agree they may not want to)

Worth recalling it only went to 14 events and extra $ to Asian tour _after _the hostilities. I totally acknowledge that may have been the intention anyway, but we don't really know.

Still can't see it happening mind! 😂


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## Dando (Sep 27, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			A merger in general is fanciful thinking at this stage, but it doesn't mean it isn't feasibly possible. 

Sheik Mansour has invested Billions to make Man City relevant and still not won a CL - LIV's initial investment is simply that, if it gets a foot in the door a couple billion is nothing to these people. 

A seat at the table of professional golf for the years to come is worth more than a couple of billion.
		
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It seems that the “seat at the table” will be a table for one, in the corner, by themselves


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

IainP said:



			To be fair the question you asked was -
  What can the PGAT actually do ?

The answer didn’t need to be palatable to you or Jay, doesn’t make it an invalid answer though.

I think you recently argued strongly (& convincingly I thought) on the strength of the DPWT  - yet they have what, a minimum of 4 tournaments a year.

So could the PGAT drop the min reqs, of course they could.(agree they may not want to)

Worth recalling it only went to 14 events and extra $ to Asian tour _after _the hostilities. I totally acknowledge that may have been the intention anyway, but we don't really know.

Still can't see it happening mind! 😂
		
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Some valid points 

Removing the minimum number of games that need to be played could be done - but imo that is just suicide for the tour , especially the ET as I suspect most of the top Europeans would prob just come back for the one event maybe two 

In regards the 14 events - I have no doubt that it was always the plan to have a significant amount of events - just my opinion but I don’t believe GN ever wanted to work with the PGAT , maybe the ET but not the PGAT , the grudge and issues between the two are well known. 

Imo he wants to surpass the PGAT and damage it - and the appearance of the Saudi money gave him the means to do so. Joining the Asian Tour was prob an afterthought because I suspect he thought he could join with the ET after the Saudi event being on the ET for a few years and a link there already


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## IainP (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some valid points

Removing the minimum number of games that need to be played could be done - but imo that is just suicide for the tour , especially the ET as I suspect most of the top Europeans would prob just come back for the one event maybe two

In regards the 14 events - I have no doubt that it was always the plan to have a significant amount of events - just my opinion but I don’t believe GN ever wanted to work with the PGAT , maybe the ET but not the PGAT , the grudge and issues between the two are well known.

Imo he wants to surpass the PGAT and damage it - and the appearance of the Saudi money gave him the means to do so. Joining the Asian Tour was prob an afterthought because I suspect he thought he could join with the ET after the Saudi event being on the ET for a few years and a link there already
		
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Yeah fair point on the ET (DPWT), I was kind of thinking the road currently on was for more co-sanctioned events, which would help the top Euro players meet the PGAT requirement targets.


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## IainP (Sep 27, 2022)

In other news, I'll pop down a little prediction that out on the 'net there'll be a few that (aren't watching, that) will be baffled by the complexities of the last event 😀😉

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/li...low&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

Probably needs reading slowly...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah fair point on the ET (DPWT), I was kind of thinking the road currently on was for more co-sanctioned events, which would help the top Euro players meet the PGAT requirement targets.
		
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i think when the Co sanction events will be carefully scheduled to make the ET event the stronger one - like the Scottish Open and Barbasol ( think it’s called ) going on and the same time but most of the top guys going to Scottish open


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## Jacko_G (Sep 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			i think when the Co sanction events will be carefully scheduled to make the ET event the stronger one - like the Scottish Open and Barbasol ( think it’s called ) going on and the same time but most of the top guys going to Scottish open
		
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Not really a huge difference from normal as the Scottish has traditionally been well supported by the top guys looking to hone their competitive game on the links a week prior to the Open.


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## JamesR (Sep 27, 2022)

Bamberdele2.0 said:



			Would anyone be able to break down all the 7,225 posts of this thread into a couple of short paragraphs that would be a nice easy read for someone starting from page one today?

Asking for a friend
		
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Post #7017


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 27, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Not really a huge difference from normal as the Scottish has traditionally been well supported by the top guys looking to hone their competitive game on the links a week prior to the Open.
		
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Only have to compare the 2019 line up to the 2022 Line up to see the difference - previously there were a few of the top Americans used to come over - the 2022 version - think there was 7 of the top ten in the world playing

Edit - 14 out of the top 15 , strongest ET event for a long time 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf...ow-in-field-for-genesis-scottish-open-3746016


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 27, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



*Nobody would double anything. Freedom of choice to select what events you wish to play.*

It's really what should have been done from the start rather than toys out of the pram approach. Sadly both Tours appear to far apart and too fractured to come to any agreement or compromise now.

I'm certainly no legal expert and perhaps more intelligent people than me can answer this. How does this whole situation compare to "Bosman" restrictions of trade etc? Freedom of movement (between Tours)? If it's allowed between Europe and US why not Liv?
		
Click to expand...

I believe LIV have 14 events which their contracted players will be obligated to attend. I also believe that the PGA Tour requires players to sign up to a minimum of 15 events. 

If that is correct then for players to play both tours and comply with the requirements they will have to play 29 events rather than 14 or 15, unless LIV and the PGA Tour agree to co-sanction some of them, which appears unlikely this side of Hell freezing over.  That looks distinctly like a doubling of workloads unless anything changes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574949839691022336
So GN said he was sitting down with media deals and the one they went with is to pay for the coverage , also provide the coverage and sort any sponsors out themselves 🤷‍♂️

I though media deals were supposed to be the other way around


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 28, 2022)

Most of the OEM's have been quiet over LIV, wonder if there's anything to read into this from Taylor Made, 2 of their biggest ambassadors on a promo together. Hopefully an indication that we're going to move away from the pettiness we've seen in recent weeks - coupled with the players dropping out of the court case...


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 28, 2022)




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## Depreston (Sep 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Most of the OEM's have been quiet over LIV, wonder if there's anything to read into this from Taylor Made, 2 of their biggest ambassadors on a promo together. Hopefully an indication that we're going to move away from the pettiness we've seen in recent weeks - coupled with the players dropping out of the court case...







Click to expand...

There isnt he still has an RBC logo on his shirt so it was filmed before LIV … probably
Same with the wedge video they released a month or 2 back


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 28, 2022)

Depreston said:



			There isnt he still has an RBC logo on his shirt so it was filmed before LIV … probably
Same with the wedge video they released a month or 2 back
		
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It was released yesterday on the TM website. Doesn’t matter when it was filmed, Taylor Made obviously had it in their interests to release it.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was released yesterday on the TM website. Doesn’t matter when it was filmed, Taylor Made obviously had it in their interests to release it.
		
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Well it doesn't help in proving that Rory and DJ are still mates despite the changes does it? If we see a newly filmed vid of all the sponsored players together then maybe?

A lot of the equipment manufacturers don't seem that fussed about players hopping over to LIV though, I note Bryson is still carrying his COBRA bag to the long drive championships this year


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:









Click to expand...

Be good to see one of the execs from the other tours face the same type of interview from Piers, thought GN handled that pretty well tbh.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 28, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well it doesn't help in proving that Rory and DJ are still mates despite the changes does it? If we see a newly filmed vid of all the sponsored players together then maybe?

A lot of the equipment manufacturers don't seem that fussed about players hopping over to LIV though, I note Bryson is still carrying his COBRA bag to the long drive championships this year
		
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I very much doubt all the players have fallen out on a personal level, some may have, but these guys know their paths will cross many times in the remainder of their careers.


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## Depreston (Sep 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It was released yesterday on the TM website. Doesn’t matter when it was filmed, Taylor Made obviously had it in their interests to release it.
		
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They’ve released videos with DJ periodically over the last 7 months there’s absolutely nothing to read into


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Be good to see one of the execs from the other tours face the same type of interview from Piers, thought GN handled that pretty well tbh.
		
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Why do the execs need to speak to someone like Piers Morgan ?

Right now GN is on the offensive - last week going to the US government and being shot down , constant shouting about the other tours and Ranking points 

This all smacks of someone who is getting desperate because things aren’t going his way - seems like lots of promises were made to the players and they haven’t been made 

And the media deal is another perfect example if it’s true - last week going on about multiple deals etc , now it’s looking like they have to pay to go on main stream. 

I don’t think this is all going as smoothly as you think


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 28, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575040084662898688


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## IainP (Sep 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574949839691022336
So GN said he was sitting down with media deals and the one they went with is to pay for the coverage , also provide the coverage and sort any sponsors out themselves 🤷‍♂️

I though media deals were supposed to be the other way around
		
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Putting the GN stuff to the side for a mo', from what I have seen of US golf coverage they have different presenters & commentators per network.
Liv had already gone down the route of sorting their own presenters & commentators, plus the footage - so I'd always assumed it would be a different model. At least in those countries happy with an English speaking presentation I guess.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Putting the GN stuff to the side for a mo', from what I have seen of US golf coverage they have different presenters & commentators per network.
Liv had already gone down the route of sorting their own presenters & commentators, plus the footage - so I'd always assumed it would be a different model. At least in those countries happy with an English speaking presentation I guess.
		
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yeah they can use their own production etc but they are having to pay for airtime ?

All the other sports get paid to broadcast the events - are they struggling to get any sort of media interest beyond You Tube ? 

What are you going to do in the UK for example


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## IainP (Sep 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			yeah they can use their own production etc but they are having to pay for airtime ?

All the other sports get paid to broadcast the events - are they struggling to get any sort of media interest beyond You Tube ?

What are you going to do in the UK for example
		
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Quite possibly struggling. Could well be some things that will come out in the "anti trust" stuff, but just speculation.
Might be different in a couple of years.

In UK, the model doesn't fit with Sky's model. I posted before I wasn't clear if there was 'clamour' for it being on tv outside of US really. 
Based on this forum, don't think anyone is looking for it to be on tv, but then again a sizeable chunk would likely prefer it to go away full stop 😉😁


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## Depreston (Sep 28, 2022)

Strange one this deal with fox 

Is it their choice to pay to avoid ad breaks or is it their only option 

Probably the former I reckon


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## IainP (Sep 28, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Strange one this deal with fox

Is it their choice to pay to avoid ad breaks or is it their only option

Probably the former I reckon
		
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Confident it will be spun both ways (as most things these days),  and we'll never really know.

As per Phil,  I think in time they'll want/need the ad money - but for now have stumbled upon a USP and may see that as worth sticking with, as cash flow not being an issue


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## Bdill93 (Sep 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Confident it will be spun both ways (as most things these days),  and we'll never really know.

As per Phil,  I think in time they'll want/need the ad money - but for now have stumbled upon a USP and may see that as worth sticking with, as cash flow not being an issue
		
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Bang on I think.

They can swallow 5 years of losses no problem so long as it establishes the tour. From then - big changes I'm sure!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Confident it will be spun both ways (as most things these days),  and we'll never really know.

As per Phil,  I think in time they'll want/need the ad money - but for now have stumbled upon a USP and may see that as worth sticking with, as cash flow not being an issue
		
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what the heck were the three other offers if this was the best


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## Jacko_G (Sep 28, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe LIV have 14 events which their contracted players will be obligated to attend. I also believe that the PGA Tour requires players to sign up to a minimum of 15 events.

If that is correct then for players to play both tours and comply with the requirements they will have to play 29 events rather than 14 or 15, unless LIV and the PGA Tour agree to co-sanction some of them, which appears unlikely this side of Hell freezing over.  That looks distinctly like a doubling of workloads unless anything changes.
		
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On a basic maths yes however when you factor in that the vast majority of the LIV guys still (at present) fulfill obligations elsewhere and compete in Europe or Japan etc then their schedule is significantly more than their LIV obligations.

I'm surprised that I had to explain that but at the risk of sounding like a broken record the haters.....

You get the picture


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			On a basic maths yes however when you factor in that the vast majority of the LIV guys still (at present) fulfill obligations elsewhere and compete in Europe or Japan etc then their schedule is significantly more than their LIV obligations.

I'm surprised that I had to explain that but at the risk of sounding like a broken record the haters.....

You get the picture
		
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Currently the only LIV guys fulfil any other tour requirements are those that need events for ranking points and those that have been binned off when bigger name players arrived.

The likes of Gooch etc aren’t playing to fulfil requirements as they are not members of the ET so have no requirements for fulfil

Most of them are now just playing LIV - the likes of DJ , Koepka , BDC - most of them are going to end up playing under 10 events this year.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Currently the only LIV guys fulfil any other tour requirements are those that need events for ranking points and those that have been binned off when bigger name players arrived.

The likes of Gooch etc aren’t playing to fulfil requirements as they are not members of the ET so have no requirements for fulfil

Most of them are now just playing LIV - the likes of DJ , Koepka , BDC - most of them are going to end up playing under 10 events this year.
		
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Hence why it's being challenged - again really didn't think that would require an explanation.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Currently the only LIV guys fulfil any other tour requirements are those that need events for ranking points and those that have been binned off when bigger name players arrived.

The likes of Gooch etc aren’t playing to fulfil requirements as they are not members of the ET so have no requirements for fulfil

Most of them are now just playing LIV - the likes of *DJ , Koepka , BDC* - most of them are going to end up playing under 10 events this year.
		
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I'm sure these guys are waiting on the resolution of the OGWR situation at the moment though. They have exemptions so need not rush to play other tour if its not necessary for the majors!

I honestly think these guys are the ones laughing the loudest at the moment, way less golf and more money in the bank. They have time on their side for a few years yet!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 28, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Hence why it's being challenged - again really didn't think that would require an explanation.
		
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Challenged? Do you mean the lawsuit that players are pulling out of ? And some of the players have resigned as PGAT members 🤷‍♂️ So they are just LIV members ? 

But the point BIM was clear - if they want to play on LIV and another tour then they are going to play a minimum of 28/29 events 

The players right now that play on two tours have a number of events that double up - majors , WGC - that’s ten events alone that count on both tours , so the likes of Rory will play around 20 events , same with anyone who plays two tours where majors count 


Bdill93 said:



			I'm sure these guys are waiting on the resolution of the OGWR situation at the moment though. They have exemptions so need not rush to play other tour if its not necessary for the majors!

I honestly think these guys are the ones laughing the loudest at the moment, way less golf and more money in the bank. They have time on their side for a few years yet!
		
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I guess if that’s all they are motivated by then they will be happy with the money 

I suspect other golfers already have a lot of money but also want to compete for the prestige to win some of the tournaments in the name of the greats or comps that the greats have won before.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 28, 2022)

It does seem a strange deal with Fox but let's not forget Liv are only 5 events old. 

Does anyone know how long the proposed deal is for... 2023 ? 

Will streaming on You Tube still be available. 
They are just starting to do some really good stuff on their own, the production on the Boston highlights they published this week is excellent.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 28, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			On a basic maths yes however when you factor in that the vast majority of the LIV guys still (at present) fulfill obligations elsewhere and compete in Europe or Japan etc then their schedule is significantly more than their LIV obligations.

I'm surprised that I had to explain that but at the risk of sounding like a broken record the haters.....

You get the picture
		
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So let’s say that they currently do 26 events a year; how many of those LIV events will the PGA Tour and the DPWT agree to be co-sanctioned so that the LIV players who want to play both tours don’t have to do the full 15 on that tour as well in order to meet their membership criteria? A round number I’d suggest as they would be giving LIV exactly what they want and depriving some of their members of opportunities in order to accommodate LIV players. Let’s be totally honest here, the only reason that LIV players want these spaces is for ranking points. 

I just don’t get how players who state that they want to play less can achieve that playing on two tours?  And it’s just something else that doesn’t add up in the statements from LIV, which makes me suspicious of it. I’m not seeing how what they are doing will grow the game. They may take it to areas of the world that haven’t had tournaments before but that to me isn’t necessarily growing the game, it’s showcasing it. How will the increase access to the game for this new audience? 

Re the broken record, you are coming across as a PGA and/or DPW Tour hater, and as you say yourself, hater’s gonna hate…


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## IainP (Sep 28, 2022)

Just to go slightly off topic for a moment, this isn't really about liv although of course every journalist seems to tie in something currently. Didn’t want to post on Presidents Cup thread while discussions were about the matches.

Anyway,  I'd never really thought about how the PGA of America ended up with thr Ryder Cup - found it interesting..

https://clubhouse.swingu.com/tour/player-revolt-helped-presidents-cup-and-now-hurts-it/


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 28, 2022)

Rory seems to have softened his stance massively from Wentworth and Italian Open with his quotes today at St Andrews. 

Should get round a table to bring golf back together (if the lawsuit is dropped) 

Liv Golfers should get OWGR points if they can agree on a criteria, not right if DJ is ranked 100


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Rory seems to have softened his stance massively from Wentworth and Italian Open with his quotes today at St Andrews.

Should get round a table to bring golf back together (if the lawsuit is dropped)

Liv Golfers should get OWGR points if they can agree on a criteria, not right if DJ is ranked 100
		
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Not sure he’s softened that much.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63061058


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## Backsticks (Sep 29, 2022)

Wow !  That is a very BIG thumbs down from the main US networks to broadcast LIV. In a business when networks are usually fighting hard to win multimillion, and billion $ deals for sports broadcasting rights, 5 major American channels literally said - you couldnt pay US to broadcast it !

Like the golfers, where 10% or so seem to be swayed to LIV by the big cash, one network has been. Presumably, Fox Sports has the same misgivings, but is swallowing them for the cheque. 
So it moves to a cable channel there - looks like LIV thought as much about youtube being a credible medium as the rest of us...

But that is one big no-thank-you from the majority of American TV.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 29, 2022)

It is a strange deal for sure but we must not forget they are only 15 rounds into their tour life. 
Im guessing Fox have been clever here, only network left on the table after the streaming services sidestepped for now. 

Fox knows they have pretty much unlimited cash to establish the tour and flipped it on them because they knew Liv needs to get its product in front of more people. 
Good business move by Fox 👍
Be interested to see the length of this deal, I'm guessing for 2023 before putting it out to tender again. 

The key thing here is that no one knows is how much money or time the PIF have agreed to for the tour to get fully established? 
Greg Norman keeps quoting they are putting 2 billion into golf in interviews. 

The PGA Tour would have been hoping that Liv didn't get any TV deal of any kind but like it or not the fact is Liv can buy itself everything it needs to succeed from players, commentators, infrastructure, and now it seems national US TV network coverage. 

That is what grinds on people the most I think but to take on the might and strength of position of the PGA Tour there is no other way to do it..


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## Backsticks (Sep 29, 2022)

I think the next step is rent-a-crowd for the venues, and pay per view TV spectators...as in LIV pays YOU if you watch the golf!


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think the next step is rent-a-crowd for the venues, and pay per view TV spectators...as in LIV pays YOU if you watch the golf!
		
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They can easily afford it 👍


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## IainP (Sep 29, 2022)

Keeping in mind that with current journalism, impartiality is like a unicorn..

Suggest skipping over the no doubt bias opinion stuff and down to the numbered paragraphs, which I thought made interesting reading -

https://teeboxtimes.com/?p=397


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not sure he’s softened that much.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63061058

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What’s does he actually say? Ball is in their court, that’s about it, rest is just sound bites. He’d make a good politician 😂


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			What’s does he actually say? Ball is in their court, that’s about it, rest is just sound bites. He’d make a good politician 😂
		
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Squarely lays the blame for the ranking points fiasco where it belongs and says it’s good to talk but only when you drop the lawsuit. Not sure he’s that much of a politician. 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			Keeping in mind that with current journalism, impartiality is like a unicorn..

Suggest skipping over the no doubt bias opinion stuff and down to the numbered paragraphs, which I thought made interesting reading -

https://teeboxtimes.com/?p=397

Click to expand...

Very interesting 

Re244, I wonder if there was a circular sent out to all the golf media productions to try and sway there attitude to LIV, from the PGA Tour? It seems that way even on here at times. 

Reading that article it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.


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## JamesR (Sep 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Very interesting

Re244, I wonder if there was a circular sent out to all the golf media productions to try and sway there attitude to LIV, from the PGA Tour? It seems that way even on here at times.

Reading that article it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.
		
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We’re into conspiracy theories now are we?
Was Monaghan the man behind the grassy knoll?


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## IanM (Sep 29, 2022)

LIV are paying a network to show their events?

Excellent.   When can we expect to be paid to watch it?  Free beer at the courses?   

Money no object


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 29, 2022)

JamesR said:



			We’re into conspiracy theories now are we?
Was Monaghan the man behind the grassy knoll?
		
Click to expand...

So you think it’s wrong to question whether Golf Monthly are one of the organisations included in this ……

_244. As part of its efforts to foreclose competition from LIV Golf and to foreclose competition for Plaintiffs’ services, the Tour has also threatened companies and individuals in the golf and sports production industry that they will be blackballed from working with the Tour if they work with LIV Golf._


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## JamesR (Sep 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you think it’s wrong to question whether Golf Monthly are one of the organisations included in this ……

_244. As part of its efforts to foreclose competition from LIV Golf and to foreclose competition for Plaintiffs’ services, the Tour has also threatened companies and individuals in the golf and sports production industry that they will be blackballed from working with the Tour if they work with LIV Golf._

Click to expand...

I don't really care


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575409367381327872


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I don't really care
		
Click to expand...

Hilarious 😂😂😂


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## Bdill93 (Sep 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575409367381327872

Click to expand...

Maybe if he was a better golfer then he would have got a spot? There's also 16 LIV golfers at Dunhill - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/16-liv-golf-stars-included-in-dunhill-field not 4 or 5


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## The Lion (Sep 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Hilarious 😂😂😂
		
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Bdill93 said:



			Maybe if he was a better golfer then he would have got a spot? There's also 16 LIV golfers at Dunhill - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/16-liv-golf-stars-included-in-dunhill-field not 4 or 5
		
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It’s his home tour and they left it for murder money. He’s entitled to feel aggrieved. 

It’s just wrong. None of them should be playing.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 29, 2022)

The Lion said:



			It’s his home tour and they left it for murder money. He’s entitled to feel aggrieved.

It’s just wrong. None of them should be playing.
		
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The best players who qualify to play should be playing.  This guy is 681st in the world and is moaning that guys ahead of him in the OGWR are playing?


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## Jacko_G (Sep 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Challenged? Do you mean the lawsuit that players are pulling out of ? And some of the players have resigned as PGAT members 🤷‍♂️ So they are just LIV members ?

But the point BIM was clear - if they want to play on LIV and another tour then they are going to play a minimum of 28/29 events

The players right now that play on two tours have a number of events that double up - majors , WGC - that’s ten events alone that count on both tours , so the likes of Rory will play around 20 events , same with anyone who plays two tours where majors count


I guess if that’s all they are motivated by then they will be happy with the money

I suspect other golfers already have a lot of money but also want to compete for the prestige to win some of the tournaments in the name of the greats or comps that the greats have won before.
		
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I despair.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So let’s say that they currently do 26 events a year; how many of those LIV events will the PGA Tour and the DPWT agree to be co-sanctioned so that the LIV players who want to play both tours don’t have to do the full 15 on that tour as well in order to meet their membership criteria? A round number I’d suggest as they would be giving LIV exactly what they want and depriving some of their members of opportunities in order to accommodate LIV players. Let’s be totally honest here, the only reason that LIV players want these spaces is for ranking points.

I just don’t get how players who state that they want to play less can achieve that playing on two tours?  And it’s just something else that doesn’t add up in the statements from LIV, which makes me suspicious of it. I’m not seeing how what they are doing will grow the game. They may take it to areas of the world that haven’t had tournaments before but that to me isn’t necessarily growing the game, it’s showcasing it. How will the increase access to the game for this new audience?

Re the broken record, you are coming across as a PGA and/or DPW Tour hater, and as you say yourself, hater’s gonna hate…
		
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You need to understand what player's are trying to achieve and it's not co sanctioned events.


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 29, 2022)

Has the Fox Deal actually been announced as done ? 

Guardian today
LIV Golf described Golfweek’s report as “incomplete and inaccurate” when contacted by the Guardian but declined to comment on the potential implications of the FCC regulations, which require disclosure at the time of a broadcast if a foreign governmental entity paid a radio or television station, directly or indirectly, to air material.

“LIV Golf has exceeded expectations and remains ahead of schedule across numerous fronts, including broadcast rights,” the spokesperson said. “As we have stated previously, LIV Golf is just beginning its process and is in active discussions with several companies about broadcasting the LIV Golf League. We caution that no one should draw any conclusions about potential media rights given that we are still in the middle of negotiations with several outlets.”


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## TheBigDraw (Sep 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I suspect other golfers already have a lot of money but also want to compete for the prestige to win some of the tournaments in the name of the greats or comps that the greats have won before.
		
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There was a time when those tournaments were just an event with no prestige, ie when they 1st started #fact. 
Over time history has been recorded where big well known names/worlds best players have won those events over a period of time and they have become elevated. 

Liv events are being played for the very 1st time so of course they are not seen/perceived as important a win BUT an event/tour has to start somewhere to start building that history so who is to say that in 10-15 years Liv London is a big event to win because it was the inaugural Liv event and been won by DJ, Cam Smith, BDC and any other top player who comes across to play Liv in the next decade. 
Without the top players the events won't build history so that's why it's crucial they keep recruiting top 25 talent. 

You can't criticise Liv for not having history like the PGA Tour. 
Your right the Liv Players have given up the chance to play in those historic events but they are helping build the history of some new events and they need quite a bit of time before they can be judged on the success of that.


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## JamesR (Sep 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Hilarious 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...


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## IainP (Sep 29, 2022)

The Lion said:



			It’s his home tour and they left it for murder money. He’s entitled to feel aggrieved.

It’s just wrong. None of them should be playing.
		
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Thing is the entry categories are written down. Seems like the player quoted might not be being accurate?

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworld-tour/alfred-dunhill-links-championship-2022/entry-list


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## RiderJake (Sep 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			There was a time when those tournaments were just an event with no prestige, ie when they 1st started #fact.
Over time history has been recorded where big well known names/worlds best players have won those events over a period of time and they have become elevated.

Liv events are being played for the very 1st time so of course they are not seen/perceived as important a win BUT an event/tour has to start somewhere to start building that history so who is to say that in 10-15 years Liv London is a big event to win because it was the inaugural Liv event and been won by DJ, Cam Smith, BDC and any other top player who comes across to play Liv in the next decade.
Without the top players the events won't build history so that's why it's crucial they keep recruiting top 25 talent.

You can't criticise Liv for not having history like the PGA Tour.
Your right the Liv Players have given up the chance to play in those historic events but they are helping build the history of some new events and they need quite a bit of time before they can be judged on the success of that.
In addition, I would like to recommend a site that has a list of online casinos that accept bitcoin - https://betpokies.co.nz/crypto-casinos/bitcoin-casinos - here you can really cool to have fun.
		
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Maybe the top players lacked the prestige of the tournament? Or maybe they just didn't have the motivation. Either way, it's up to the tournament organizers, I guess.


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## BrianM (Sep 29, 2022)

Not sure how true this is, but I believe it’s a shotgun start tomorrow at the Dunhill because of the weather 🤣🤣🤣
It is a howler tomorrow and Saturday in fairness 🙈


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Not sure how true this is, but I believe it’s a shotgun start tomorrow at the Dunhill because of the weather 🤣🤣🤣
It is a howler tomorrow and Saturday in fairness 🙈
		
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Ha ha, just needs reducing to 54 holes now 😬😅


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## IainP (Sep 29, 2022)

Rachet up +1

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63080009

Here we go, gotta love the USA 😁😄😉


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 29, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			You need to understand what player's are trying to achieve and it's not co sanctioned events.
		
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I understand exactly what the LIV players are trying to achieve; having their cake and eating it.

They want to play on both tours so that they get ranking points, or they want LIV events to get ranking points, in which case they couldn’t give two hoots about playing the PGA or European Tour.

Until one or both of those tours rewrite their rules the only way they fulfill the membership obligations of both tours is playing a lot more golf. I know that’s not what they want to do but it’s the only way they play both tours at the moment, assuming the rules remain the same and the Tour they turned their back on allows them to return.


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## Mel Smooth (Sep 29, 2022)

What sort of lunatics actually have cake, but don't want to eat it?


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## 4LEX (Sep 29, 2022)

IanM said:



			LIV are paying a network to show their events?

Excellent.   When can we expect to be paid to watch it?  Free beer at the courses? 

Money no object 

Click to expand...

Well they've been giving away free tickets all year


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## larmen (Sep 29, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Well they've been giving away free tickets all year 

Click to expand...

But only for the first 200 people …

… who are using any of the 48 players codes.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 29, 2022)

larmen said:



			But only for the first 200 people …

… who are using any of the 48 players codes.
		
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Is that 200 people in total? Or 200 per player code - 200 x 48 = 9600 free tickets? And is that for each day or in total for the three days? What sort of attendance figures have there been for the first few LIV events?


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## BiMGuy (Sep 29, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that 200 people in total? Or 200 per player code - 200 x 48 = 9600 free tickets? And is that for each day or in total for the three days? What sort of attendance figures have there been for the first few LIV events?
		
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Most of the ‘fans’ are going in as the golf finishes for the free concert.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Most of the ‘fans’ are going in as the golf finishes for the free concert.
		
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Not quite what I saw at the London event - more like the fans stay for the golf and leave by the time the concert starts..


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## JamesR (Sep 30, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575832122543194112good point


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## rksquire (Sep 30, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Well they've been giving away free tickets all year 

Click to expand...

There was free access at the Italian Open this year..... out of all the aspects of LIV to follow, this is the one DPWT decide to follow!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Well, it wouldn't be a LIV event week, without a little controversy...

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...tm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com


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## Swango1980 (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, it wouldn't be a LIV event week, without a little controversy...

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...tm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com

Click to expand...

First post in 5 days. Crazy, what is going on. 5 days normally gives us 50 pages to read over. People been on holiday?


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## Bdill93 (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, it wouldn't be a LIV event week, without a little controversy...

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...tm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com

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I wont lie - seems weird that a tour can just be like "here have some of our ranking points lads" as its not like any of the tours players can play LIV?


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## Imurg (Oct 5, 2022)

The word that springs to mind is..
Desperation ..
Another 2 are Mind-blowing and arrogance


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			First post in 5 days. Crazy, what is going on. 5 days normally gives us 50 pages to read over. People been on holiday?
		
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I've been working in Barnsley. About as far from "being on holiday" as you can get.. ;-)


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## IainP (Oct 5, 2022)

Seems to be being reported in many places, but I'll wait until I see it on the OWGR website...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

IainP said:



			Seems to be being reported in many places, but I'll wait until I see it on the OWGR website...
		
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Not sure on the alliance or what it means for MENA Tour etc - but LIV Tour would be a development tour with MENA being the main tour

https://menatour.golf/tournaments

The event in Bangkok is now part of the Mena Tour it looks like which gets ranking points - and they have just given all the players Mena Tour membership

The Mena Tour pretty much stopped in May 2020 and then Asia Development Tour - so that’s what LIV will be - a development tour so it can stick with 54 holes etc but will be very small level of points

Players will also play on Mena Tour events - getting close to them playing every single week


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## Imurg (Oct 5, 2022)

So......
If LIV is to be, effectively,  a development tour...that is developing players with a view to them advancing to a tour further up the hierarchy........
Which Tour are the LIV players being "developed" for..?
They still won't meet the 75 player average, Monday qualifying etc etc...


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## IainP (Oct 5, 2022)

Yeah I noticed mena seemed to have stopped earlier in the year.
Maybe a case of "if being awkward will just game the system then" perhaps..

https://menatour.golf/tournament/entry-list/2022/liv-golf-invitational-bangkok


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah I noticed mena seemed to have stopped earlier in the year.
Maybe a case of "if being awkward will just game the system then" perhaps..

https://menatour.golf/tournament/entry-list/2022/liv-golf-invitational-bangkok

Click to expand...

Mena is a pure development Tour for aspiring   Pros and also top amateurs , the ranking points are assigned for that purpose - to keep the points it needs to be that sort of Tour I believe 

it’s pretty desperate move and I wonder if it’s to appease some of the players who maybe having second thoughts 

OWGR still haven’t said if the tournament will have any points assigned and you could see them saying no


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## IainP (Oct 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mena is a pure development Tour for aspiring   Pros and also top amateurs , the ranking points are assigned for that purpose - to keep the points it needs to be that sort of Tour I believe

it’s pretty desperate move and I wonder if it’s to appease some of the players who maybe having second thoughts

OWGR still haven’t said if the tournament will have any points assigned and you could see them saying no
		
Click to expand...

As I posted earlier, I'll wait for owgr confirmation.

However is there anything actually written down about "development tours" and restricted points?

I've only seen this..
"Major Championships will continue to award 100 First-Place Points, while THE PLAYERS Championship will award 80. All other tournaments will award Ranking Points according to the strength and depth of their fields, with a maximum of 80 First-Place Points."


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mena is a pure development Tour for aspiring   Pros and also top amateurs , the ranking points are assigned for that purpose - to keep the points it needs to be that sort of Tour I believe

it’s pretty desperate move and I wonder if it’s to appease some of the players who maybe having second thoughts

OWGR still haven’t said if the tournament will have any points assigned and you could see them saying no
		
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Not sure it's a desperate move - it seems to me they've found a loophole to pick up OWGR points until the matter is resolved correctly.

It will be interesting to see how the rankings are affected after this weekends event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not sure it's a desperate move - it seems to me they've found a loophole to pick up OWGR points until the matter is resolved correctly.

It will be interesting to see how the rankings are affected after this weekends event.
		
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Of course it’s desperate and it might not even work

Mena is a pure development tour whose events in 2020 had a level of ranking points.

The event that Mena have added to their calendar last minute currently isn’t in the list of ranking events this weekend- so at the moment only these events will affect the rankings 

https://www.owgr.com/this-week-s-events

The whole golf world can see what Norman is trying now , seeing how he hasn’t thought much through before I suspect he also hasn’t thought this through as well 

Why would anyone want to see a development tour being bought like this ?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course it’s desperate and it might not even work

Mena is a pure development tour whose events in 2020 had a level of ranking points.

The event that Mena have added to their calendar last minute currently isn’t in the list of ranking events this weekend- so at the moment only these events will affect the rankings

https://www.owgr.com/this-week-s-events

The whole golf world can see what Norman is trying now , seeing how he hasn’t thought much through before I suspect he also hasn’t thought this through as well

*Why would anyone want to see a development tour being bought like this* ?
		
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Yes, why would anybody want to see the DPWT be bought in a strategic alliance with the PGA Tour, effectively sealing it's fate as a _development tour._


The golf landscape is changing mate, and this is all part of the ongong process on both sides.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yes, why would anybody want to see the DPWT be bought in a strategic alliance with the PGA Tour, effectively sealing it's fate as a _development tour._


The golf landscape is changing mate, and this is all part of the ongong process on both sides.
		
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Why are are you twisting it round to the PGA and ET ? It’s irrelevant 

Is this part of the “on going” process ? A tour which is for young pros and amateurs only for development in the sport being bought out by LiV ? 

Look at the list of players in the Event and tell me which ones are “developing” golfers ? 

Do you think it’s a good thing LIV just buying this tour for the sole purpose of gaining world ranking points ?


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## JamesR (Oct 5, 2022)

MENA tour is a minor tour. 
I played with Richard Mansell years ago, and he he was on that tour, before qualifying for the Challenge tour. So it’s lower than the 3rd tier of golf.
Strikes of desperation, to anyone but the biggest LiV sycophants.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577740335119319057

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577740773159800834


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are are you twisting it round to the PGA and ET ? It’s irrelevant

Is this part of the “on going” process ? A tour which is for young pros and amateurs only for development in the sport being bought out by LiV ?

Look at the list of players in the Event and tell me which ones are “developing” golfers ?

Do you think it’s a good thing LIV just buying this tour for the sole purpose of gaining world ranking points ?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not twisiting anything - its factual - the PGA have changed their product dynamically to try and maintain their position in the golf world, LIV are doing the same - it's all a means to an end, which is giving both series a foothold in the game.

There are plenty of young golfers on the LIV series, and quite clearly, part of their business model is to pick up young players with potential.


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## Imurg (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm not twisiting anything - its factual - the PGA have changed their product dynamically to try and maintain their position in the golf world, LIV are doing the same - it's all a means to an end, which is giving both series a foothold in the game.

There are plenty of young golfers on the LIV series, and quite clearly, part of their business model is to pick up young players with potential.
		
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Which has naff all to do with LIV becoming a development tour, lower than the Challenge Tour,  just to gain ranking points....


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## JamesR (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm not twisiting anything - its factual - the PGA have changed their product dynamically to try and maintain their position in the golf world, LIV are doing the same - it's all a means to an end, which is giving both series a foothold in the game.

There are plenty of young golfers on the LIV series, and quite clearly, part of their business model is to pick up young players with potential.
		
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Didn’t they just get the young golfers, and has beens, to fill the spaces the big names didn’t take up?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Which has naff all to do with LIV becoming a development tour, lower than the Challenge Tour,  just to gain ranking points....
		
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So what was behind the strategic alliance between the PGA and DPWT? It might not have anything to do with OWGR points, but it has everything to do with strengthening the position of the PGA Tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Didn’t they just get the young golfers, and has beens, to fill the spaces the big names didn’t take up?
		
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I don't know James, do they?


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## Imurg (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what was behind the strategic alliance between the PGA and DPWT? It might not have anything to do with OWGR points, but it has everything to do with strengthening the position of the PGA Tour.
		
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I don't know..I wasn't invited to the meeting.
We've moved on from where you are...we're onto LIV becoming a 6th rate Tour.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what was behind the strategic alliance between the PGA and DPWT? It might not have anything to do with OWGR points, but it has everything to do with strengthening the position of the PGA Tour.
		
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What relevance does that have to do with Mena ? How many Mena players can play this week in the LIV event ?


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## PieMan (Oct 5, 2022)

What about the caddies on the MENA tour - are they going to get the same pay and conditions as the LIV caddies?


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## IainP (Oct 5, 2022)

Will be interesting to see the next moves  - much of this "battle" is being played out as PR via the media.
Note the many golf media sources scrambling to break the story so not to be last. Positioning it as a done deal.
There's already a swell of 'change verses old guard' opinion going on - the size & numbers of course can be debated, but it is there.
If tomorrow the owgr, as per LPhil's posted tweets, throw mena out then how may that make them look ? (Esp to those not following the minutiae).
They're likely to be criticised whatever they do. Interesting times...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 5, 2022)

IainP said:



			Will be interesting to see the next moves  - much of this "battle" is being played out as PR via the media.
Note the many golf media sources scrambling to break the story so not to be last. Positioning it as a done deal.
There's already a swell of 'change verses old guard' opinion going on - the size & numbers of course can be debated, but it is there.
If tomorrow the owgr, as per LPhil's posted tweets, throw mena out then how may that make them look ? (Esp to those not following the minutiae).
They're likely to be criticised whatever they do. Interesting times...
		
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I don’t see them being “thrown out” as such but because the Mena Tour would clearly no longer be a development tour so they would need to fulfil the requirements of a main tour- so back to square one again


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## Depreston (Oct 5, 2022)

It’s an absolute circus  fair play if this works though


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## BiMGuy (Oct 5, 2022)

So,  LiV is now officially a tinpot 3rd rate tour. 🤣


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## Backsticks (Oct 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So,  LiV is now officially a tinpot 3rd rate tour. 🤣
		
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Its clearly better than that. At the moment its a mid ranking pre-Champions tour, or alternative Champions tour with recurring guest stars from the top tour.

The recent quiet, like the non event that was the 'exodus' to LIV post Fedex Cup finale, does confirm the recruitment campaign hit a wall. Leaving the big boys who jumped looking rather isolated.


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## JamesR (Oct 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So,  LiV is now officially a tinpot 3rd rate tour. 🤣
		
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Only “now”?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			First post in 5 days. Crazy, what is going on. 5 days normally gives us 50 pages to read over. People been on holiday?
		
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Yes I'm in the USA playing Merion East GC. 😁

Be interesting to see how this Mena alliance plays out..


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## Newtonuti (Oct 6, 2022)

PieMan said:



			What about the caddies on the MENA tour - are they going to get the same pay and conditions as the LIV caddies? 

Click to expand...

I'd like to offer my services as caddy to some random if this happens


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Which has naff all to do with LIV becoming a development tour, lower than the Challenge Tour,  just to gain ranking points....
		
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Why does Liv become a lesser tour because of this alliance?

It's purely to gain OGWR points, nothing more. 

Be aware that OGWR points are appointed by the strength of the field not the strength of the Mena Tour.
With the players Liv have they could have more points on offer than DP World Tour events which in essence makes it a higher tour. 

This is a genius clever strategic move by Liv with Mena already getting OGWR points for their 54 hole events however I see this really kicking off now and getting super political with probably more frigging lawsuits when this gets bogged down in red tape.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Why does Liv become a lesser tour because of this alliance?

It's purely to gain OGWR points, nothing more.

Be aware that OGWR points are appointed by the strength of the field not the strength of the Mena Tour.
With the players Liv have they could have more points on offer than DP World Tour events.

This is a genius clever move by Liv however I see this really kicking off now and getting super political with probably more frigging lawsuits when this gets bogged down in red tape.
		
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Although this is slightly tongue in cheek, it demonstrates the strength of the LIV tour in relation to some PGA Tour events.

Take away all the nonsense, and what we have are world class golfers, playing golf.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577923189673717760


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## Bdill93 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Although this is slightly tongue in cheek, it demonstrates the strength of the LIV tour in relation to some PGA Tour events.

Take away all the nonsense, and what we have are world class golfers, playing golf.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577923189673717760

Click to expand...

Did MENA have a cut at any point over the 3 days before this, out of curiosity?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Did MENA have a cut at any point over the 3 days before this, out of curiosity?
		
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No idea.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Did MENA have a cut at any point over the 3 days before this, out of curiosity?
		
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Good question and I'm not sure, I would guess yes.

Like I said in my previous post it's a very clever move by Liv but I don't see them getting points straight away. We are heading for more legal wrangling I reckon.

No way PGAT are letting Liv just get points this way without a fight because they know OWGR is the main reason a lot of PGAT players who fancy the money currently won't move over. 

If they did automatically get points the winner in Bangkok would get decent OGWR points based on the strength of the field

Mena now feeds Asian tour, Asian tour feeds liv so helps with the pathway issue at least


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## Bdill93 (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Good question and I'm not sure, I would guess yes.

Like I said in my previous post it's a very clever move by Liv but I don't see them getting points straight away. We are heading for more legal wrangling I reckon.

*No way PGAT are letting Liv just get points this way without a fight because they know OWGR is the main reason a lot of PGAT players who fancy the money currently won't move ove*r.

If they did the winner in Bangkok would get very good OGWR points

Mena now feeds Asian tour, Asian tour feeds liv so helps with the pathway issue at least
		
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And that's the monopoly I do not agree with. PGA tour should have no say at all who gets ranking points and who doesn't. Should be a totally separate entity to the tour altogether.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Why does Liv become a lesser tour because of this alliance?

It's purely to gain OGWR points, nothing more.

Be aware that OGWR points are appointed by the strength of the field not the strength of the Mena Tour.
With the players Liv have they could have more points on offer than DP World Tour events which in essence makes it a higher tour.

This is a genius clever strategic move by Liv with Mena already getting OGWR points for their 54 hole events however I see this really kicking off now and getting super political with probably more frigging lawsuits when this gets bogged down in red tape.
		
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Mena Tour currently only get world ranking points because it’s a “development” tour - that is why they can play just 54 holes 

By adding the LIV golfers and LiV tournaments then it clearly no longer becomes a development tour 

So the events will still have to follow the same level of requirements as PGAT , ET etc 

Greg Norman is trying a loophole and using a tour which gains points without imo understanding the reason why the tour gets the points 



Bdill93 said:



			Did MENA have a cut at any point over the 3 days before this, out of curiosity?
		
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The last time they held events consistently they didn’t have cuts


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			And that's the monopoly I do not agree with. PGA tour should have no say at all who gets ranking points and who doesn't. Should be a totally separate entity to the tour altogether.
		
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PGAT and DPWT both sit on the board of OGWR


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mena Tour currently only get world ranking points because it’s a “development” tour - that is why they can play just 54 holes 

By adding the LIV golfers and LiV tournaments then it clearly no longer becomes a development tour 

So the events will still have to follow the same level of requirements as PGAT , ET etc 

Greg Norman is trying a loophole and using a tour which gains points without imo understanding the reason why the tour gets the points 



The last time they held events consistently they didn’t have cuts
		
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Like I said lots of legal wrangling and red tape ahead but a clever strategic move none the less


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## Jason.H (Oct 6, 2022)

On a positive note on all this there are lots of players getting on the PGA and feeder tours that might never of had the chance before


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## Bdill93 (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mena Tour currently only get world ranking points because it’s a “development” tour - that is why they can play just 54 holes

By adding the LIV golfers and LiV tournaments then it clearly no longer becomes a development tour

So the events will still have to follow the same level of requirements as PGAT , ET etc

Greg Norman is trying a loophole and using a tour which gains points without imo understanding the reason why the tour gets the points



The last time they held events consistently* they didn’t have cut*s
		
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Interesting!



TheBigDraw said:



			PGAT and DPWT both sit on the board of OGWR
		
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I know, its pretty jokes really! Every step of the way Norman hits a wall built by the established tours. Hes not wrong that they have too much control over golf on the whole. The only thing they don't seem to control is the world long drive


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Away from the OWGR debate, this has been a pretty smart move by LIV in terms of media exposure, and of course, they've now got an alliance with a Dubai based tour, a little like the PGA Tour ;-)


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			On a positive note on all this there are lots of players getting on the PGA and feeder tours that might never of had the chance before
		
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And it's raising the profile of the game internationally. I'd never even heard of the MENA tour until yesterday - and I definitely didn't know one of Miguel Angel Jimenez's sons played on it.

For those guys already on this tour, it's a great bit of exposure and investment.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And it's raising the profile of the game internationally. I'd never even heard of the MENA tour until yesterday - and I definitely didn't know one of Miguel Angel Jimenez's sons played on it.

*For those guys already on this tour*, it's a great bit of exposure and investment.
		
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What do they actually gain? They're not playing this weekend are they? I assume LIV maybe has increased the pots of money they play for in other events?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And it's raising the profile of the game internationally. I'd never even heard of the MENA tour until yesterday - and I definitely didn't know one of Miguel Angel Jimenez's sons played on it.

For those guys already on this tour, it's a great bit of exposure and investment.
		
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Just a simple question

Why do you think LIV Tour have given money to Mena to include the LIV players on their tour



Bdill93 said:



			What do they actually gain? They're not playing this weekend are they? I assume LIV maybe has increased the pots of money they play for in other events?
		
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They gain nothing - no Mena player is playing in the LIV and there are no currently planned Mena events beyond this LIV tour


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			What do they actually gain? They're not playing this weekend are they? I assume LIV maybe has increased the pots of money they play for in other events?
		
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Yes the purses are going to increase on the Mena events but not crazy money, just strong purses for a feeder tour according to A Shipnuck

I think its important for Liv to be seen with some of their billions trickle down to the Asian and mena tours to support their pathway.

So Mena players can move up to Asian and Asian can move up to Liv.

Not many Liv places available though it has to be said but it is possible.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			What do they actually gain? They're not playing this weekend are they? I assume LIV maybe has increased the pots of money they play for in other events?
		
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No, none of the MENA tour players will play in the LIV event, although they are taliking about pathways in the press release, so obvioulsy longer term that could be possible, along with gaining access to the Asian Tour I guess?

In terms of money, I'm sure Ive read somewhere that the purses have increased, but not 100% on that.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just a simple question

Why do you think LIV Tour have given money to Mena to include the LIV players on their tour



They gain nothing - no Mena player is playing in the LIV and there are no currently planned Mena events beyond this LIV tour
		
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They only announced the partnership yesterday Phil.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They only announced the partnership yesterday Phil.
		
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Partnership 😂

There is one Mena event planned - the LIV event , there is no Mena events beyond that ,  nothing planned at all. 

Greg Norman is trying to circumvent the rules to give his players ranking points by using another tour.

It’s not a Co sanction event , there is no partnership. It’s a pretty desperate move that is I suspect going to look bad on him again 

This doesn’t put liv golf in any good light at all 

They wanted to do this with the Asian Tour and it didn’t happen.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Although this is slightly tongue in cheek,* it demonstrates the strength of the LIV tour in relation to some PGA Tour events.*

Take away all the nonsense, and what we have are world class golfers, playing golf.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577923189673717760

Click to expand...

Yes, it confirms that PGAT fields even for one of its lesser events have way more talent in them than LiV,  percentages are irrelevant.  Bigger fields mean more competition and are harder events to win.


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## Depreston (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Good question and I'm not sure, I would guess yes.

Like I said in my previous post it's a very clever move by Liv but I don't see them getting points straight away. We are heading for more legal wrangling I reckon.

No way PGAT are letting Liv just get points this way without a fight because they know OWGR is the main reason a lot of PGAT players who fancy the money currently won't move over.

*If they did automatically get points the winner in Bangkok would get decent OGWR points based on the strength of the field*

Mena now feeds Asian tour, Asian tour feeds liv so helps with the pathway issue at least
		
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Not according to skysports news Jamie Weir


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Not according to skysports news Jamie Weir
		
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Because he's not biased one little bit is he??


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## Backsticks (Oct 6, 2022)

I am gutted for the Mena guys that wont get to play in their tournaments now, as they make way for the $50M guys from Saudi.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because he's not biased one little bit is he??

Click to expand...


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because he's not biased one little bit is he??

Click to expand...


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No, none of the MENA tour players will play in the LIV event, although they are taliking about pathways in the press release, so obvioulsy longer term that could be possible, *along with gaining access to the Asian Tour I guess?*

In terms of money, I'm sure Ive read somewhere that the purses have increased, but not 100% on that.
		
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Isn't that what they already have by playing on the MENA tour? Like you, I hadn't heard of the MENA tour until yesterday but it's been described as a feeder tour for the Asian tour. As such the MENA players already have access to the Asian tour so aren't gaining anything from this.


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## Depreston (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because he's not biased one little bit is he??

Click to expand...

Is he wrong? i have no idea? how many points will the winner get will it be more than a PGA win 2nd place? 10th place? make the cut?

He's the only one whose referenced that it's not just strength of field i'll bow down to your unbiased opinion if you or BigDraw can answer the above if not i'll stick with a journalist who follows these things a bit more closely than the average LIV shill


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Partnership 😂

There is one Mena event planned - the LIV event , there is no Mena events beyond that ,  nothing planned at all.
.
		
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Yeah, if only there was a logical explanation for that....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, if only there was a logical explanation for that....
	View attachment 44686

Click to expand...

So the question you ignored 

Why do you think LIV are trying to connect with MENA


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the question you ignored

Why do you think LIV are trying to connect with MENA
		
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To help get OWGR points and strengthen their position.

Why do you think the PGA Tour wanted to connect with the DPWT?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			To help get OWGR points and strengthen their position.

Why do you think the PGA Tour wanted to connect with the DPWT?
		
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So it’s just to get the 48 golfers ranking points - no other reason 

And the PGAT Co sanctions events with the ET to improve both tours


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s just to get the 48 golfers ranking points - no other reason

And the PGAT Co sanctions events with the ET to improve both tours
		
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I think I said "and to strengthen their position". Are you trying to suggest that there is no benefit whatsoever from this arrangement to the MENA Tour? The very fact that it is now on the golfing radar, with increased purses, suggests that would be a bizarre claim to make..


So it is done "to improve both tours".


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Anyway, here's a little something from one of the caddies.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/undercover-caddie-looping-liv-golf-best-experience-of-career


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Is he wrong? i have no idea? how many points will the winner get will it be more than a PGA win 2nd place? 10th place? make the cut?

He's the only one whose referenced that it's not just strength of field i'll bow down to your unbiased opinion if you or BigDraw can answer the above if not i'll stick with a journalist who follows these things a bit more closely than the average LIV shill
		
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Points are based on strength of field, nothing to do with the tour the event is on. 

So the PGA Tour events on now have less points than the LA Open in Feb that will have a stellar field.

Liv will get decent OGWR points for their events because of their field if this goes through but Its hard to see that happening quickly for various reasons.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the question you ignored 

Why do you think LIV are trying to connect with MENA
		
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For OGWR points loophole #fact

The Mena tour will get an injection of prize money but that's not why they have done it.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, if only there was a logical explanation for that....
	View attachment 44686

Click to expand...


And so here it is...



Here you are @Liverppo


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## Depreston (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Points are based on strength of field, nothing to do with the tour the event is on.

So the PGA Tour events on now have less points than the LA Open in Feb that will have a stellar field.

Liv will get decent OGWR points for their events because of their field if this goes through but Its hard to see that happening quickly for various reasons.
		
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A new OWGR points system will be in force from* August 2022*. The way in which the Official World Golf Rankings (OWGR) are to change in August 2022 when a new calculation system will come into force. 

Strength isn't the overriding factor now. Strength Depth and length of tournament seem to come into play judging from what I can see from journalists and the owgr site 

potentially playing for 3-5 points for a win rather than 30-50 on the bigger tours


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## r0wly86 (Oct 6, 2022)

Nice to see the Saudi Crown Prince closening his ties with Putin. 

We can keep saying not to talk about politics, but all this runs in the background


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

It's all conjecture right now.

I suggest we all just wait 72hrs when we should have a very much clearer picture of whether this move has got Liv OGWR points, closer to or been shut down completely.

All could feasibley happen by the end of the weekend


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)

Can they backdate points?
Doesn't the latest LIV event start tonight or early tomorrow our time..?


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



View attachment 44688

Click to expand...

Exactly what everybody would expect tbh.


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Exactly what everybody would expect tbh.
		
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Well...apart from Greg Norman I suppose.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



View attachment 44688

Click to expand...

Not surprised at all

Imagine if Greg Norman actually did the research first


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well...apart from Greg Norman I suppose.....
		
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I suspect he and his team will have fully anticipated this, it's a game of chess.  There will now be questions over the legitimacy of awarding OWGR points to say the FEDEX cup, which fails to meet several OWGR criteria, if points can't be awarded to a LIV event which is now seemingly part of a Tour that is elgible for points.


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I suspect he and his team will have fully anticipated this, it's a game of chess.  There will now be questions over the legitimacy of awarding OWGR points to say the FEDEX cup, which fails to meet several OWGR criteria, if points can't be awarded to a LIV event which is now seemingly part of a Tour that is elgible for points.
		
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If you're referring to the Tour Championship which has , what, 30 players..it's an event that you have to qualify for.
You don't just get invited, you have to play in the playoffs and you need to play in multiple events to get into the playoffs 
It's a million miles away from LIV's setup.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I suspect he and his team will have fully anticipated this, it's a game of chess.  There will now be questions over the legitimacy of awarding OWGR points to say the FEDEX cup, which fails to meet several OWGR criteria, if points can't be awarded to a LIV event which is now seemingly part of a Tour that is elgible for points.
		
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I suspect he hasn’t anticipated this at all and as said it’s just another example of how poor he is as a CEO - or is it arrogance 

And there will be no questions of the Fed Ex as the event is part of a tour whose tournaments are mainly 72 holes with a cut and fulfil them OWGR requirements 

None of the LIv events do and even wouldn’t when joining Mena


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## BiMGuy (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I suspect he and his team will have fully anticipated this, it's a game of chess.  *There will now be questions over the legitimacy of awarding OWGR points to say the FEDEX cup*, which fails to meet several OWGR criteria, if points can't be awarded to a LIV event which is now seemingly part of a Tour that is elgible for points.
		
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Nope


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I suspect he hasn’t anticipated this at all and as said it’s just another example of how poor he is as a CEO - or is it arrogance

And there will be no questions of the Fed Ex as the event is part of a tour whose tournaments are mainly 72 holes with a cut and fulfil them OWGR requirements

None of the LIv events do and even wouldn’t when joining Mena
		
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Lol, he's a hugely succesful businessman Phil, and he won't be making these calls off the hip by himself. Do you think he's sat in the locker room in Thailand all by himself frantically trying to run an international sports entertainment business 

As for the FEDEX comparison, it's clearly ambiguous, but can be seen as an "exemption" to the requiremnets in simple terms. I wouldn't be surprised if it was brought up in a future legal challenge, which is exactly where this will end up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, he's a hugely succesful businessman Phil, and he won't be making these calls off the hip by himself. Do you think he's sat in the locker room in Thailand all by himself frantically trying to run an international sports entertainment business 

Click to expand...

So why does he keep getting things wrong then ?

Banning from PGAT
Ranking points 
Now this


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2022)

I imagine Greg's trashing his hotel room right now......


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



View attachment 44688

Click to expand...

Thats exactly the right response.

Don't leave it all up in the air, it will be reviewed and acted on accordingly in a reasonable amount of time. 

My opinion is this won't get Liv OGWR points but will get them nearer/quicker to achieving it in the future


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So why does he keep getting things wrong then ?

Banning from PGAT
Ranking points
Now this
		
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Well, is he on record as saying that nobody would be banned from the PGA Tour? HE may well be, I don't know. Likewise, did he say that all players would get ranking points?

The series is well in advance of where they thought it would be when it launched, the discussions in this thread are testament to that. Right now, there's a power struggle between the PGA Tour, and LIV, but once that settles down - and it will - because people are already calling for a truce, the LIV series and the other tours will move forward.
Your a full on PGA supporter - that's fair enough, and like Jay, you want to see LIV fail - but we've now reached a point where that would be to the detriment of global proffesional golf.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, is he on record as saying that nobody would be banned from the PGA Tour? HE may well be, I don't know. Likewise, did he say that all players would get ranking points?

The series is well in advance of where they thought it would be when it launched, the discussions in this thread are testament to that. Right now, there's a power struggle between the PGA Tour, and LIV, but once that settles down - and it will - because people are already calling for a truce, the LIV series and the other tours will move forward.
Your a full on PGA supporter - that's fair enough, and like Jay, you want to see LIV fail - but we've now reached a point where that would be to the detriment of global proffesional golf.
		
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Is there a published timeline of where they expected to be now?


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## PieMan (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I imagine Greg's trashing his hotel room right now......
		
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I think he's probably on the Khaosan Road playing an interesting game of ping pong.........(if he isn't then he should be - it's a cracking night out!!)


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, is he on record as saying that nobody would be banned from the PGA Tour? HE may well be, I don't know. Likewise, did he say that all players would get ranking points?

The series is well in advance of where they thought it would be when it launched, the discussions in this thread are testament to that. Right now, there's a power struggle between the PGA Tour, and LIV, but once that settles down - and it will - because people are already calling for a truce, the LIV series and the other tours will move forward.
Your a full on PGA supporter - that's fair enough, and like Jay, you want to see LIV fail - but we've now reached a point where that would be to the detriment of global proffesional golf.
		
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I’m not a PGA supporter- actually prefer the ET 

Why would LIV failing be detrimental to global world golf ?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not a PGA supporter- actually prefer the ET

Why would LIV failing be detrimental to global world golf ?
		
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Because "global proffesional golf", currently exists within primarily the USA, and the odd event in Europe. The game has huge growth outside of these areas, but they get very little attention from the proffesional game - because it is dominated by the PGA Tour. Imagine if Formula 1 decided to be based in 1 country - you think that would be good for the sport? What we have currently is just that - all the money is pumped into one country, within a sport that has global appeal. LIV has come along and challenged that, and as a result, the game will be strengthened across the world.


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## evemccc (Oct 6, 2022)

As an aside, Greg Norman was indisputably the best player for a number of years - and won a heck of a lot on the PGA Tour — and no doubt underachieved in terms of major wins in general

His success is mostly based on his PGA Tour performance — why has he always wanted to reform it or been at loggerheads with its hierarchy?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

So everybody is clear this is how OWGR currently works


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because "global proffesional golf", currently exists within primarily the USA, and the odd event in Europe. The game has huge growth outside of these areas, but they get very little attention from the proffesional game - because it is dominated by the PGA Tour. Imagine if Formula 1 decided to be based in 1 country - you think that would be good for the sport? What we have currently is just that - all the money is pumped into one country, within a sport that has global appeal. LIV has come along and challenged that, and as a result, the game will be strengthened across the world.
		
Click to expand...

So if LIV disappeared the only thing that would change is 

The two events they have created outside the US

The events they have created in the US

And a handful of golfers getting rich 

The PGAT is a US tour - other countries around the world have tours that look after events - they will still be around

Where are LIV basing 80% of their events - The US - why ? Because that’s the biggest market 

The game isn’t being “strengthened” around the world - a small amount of golfers are getting richer


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So if LIV disappeared the only thing that would change is

The two events they have created outside the US

The events they have created in the US

And a handful of golfers getting rich

The PGAT is a US tour - other countries around the world have tours that look after events - they will still be around

Where are LIV basing 80% of their events - The US - why ? Because that’s the biggest market

The game isn’t being “strengthened” around the world - a small amount of golfers are getting richer
		
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Well, LIV have got three events outside of the US this year, so that's you incorrect on your 1st point - and the 80% statistic. They have got a US bias of course, because that's where the current safe golf audience is, plus it's where most of the players are based - so it makes sense to have the majority of events there. But, they are taking those players across the globe, in a series that will gain momentum and publicity for the game - and as a result, the golfing audience across the world will increase - I doubt many people in the USA will watch the event in Thailand because of the time diffrence - but conversely that means events in the USA are challenging to watch in Asia, again because of the time difference, and 60% of the worlds population live in Asia - so, you can see there might be some potential there somehwere down the line, right?

So I can't agree on your last point, potentially untapped audiences getting to attend events with world class golfers, or watch them live on television isn't going to benefit golf  globally? I think you are wrong again there.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, LIV have got three events outside of the US this year, so that's you incorrect on your 1st point - and the 80% statistic. They have got a US bias of course, because that's where the current safe golf audience is, plus it's where most of the players are based - so it makes sense to have the majority of events there. But, they are taking those players across the globe, in a series that will gain momentum and publicity for the game - and as a result, the golfing audience across the world will increase - I doubt many people in the USA will watch the event in Thailand because of the time diffrence - but conversely that means events in the USA are challenging to watch in Asia, again because of the time difference, and 60% of the worlds population live in Asia - so, you can see there might be some potential there somehwere down the line, right?

So I can't agree on your last point, potentially untapped audiences getting to attend events with world class golfers, or watch them live on television isn't going to benefit golf  globally? I think you are wrong again there.
		
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Can I just say it is perfectly OK to like watching both tours.

Both have got some of the worlds best Golfers playing amazing golf on great golf courses.


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## PieMan (Oct 6, 2022)

Hold on, LIV are taking their players across the globe? I thought the reason most of them joined was to play less golf and spend more time at home............!!!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Can I just say it is perfectly OK to like watching both tours.

Both have got some of the worlds best Golfers playing amazing golf on great golf courses.
		
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I agree, since the inception of LIV, I've watched a lot more golf from lots of different tours, and enjoyed all of it.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Hold on, LIV are taking their players across the globe? I thought the reason most of them joined was to play less golf and spend more time at home............!!! 

Click to expand...

If I had a pound for evertime that argument had been trotted out... ;-)


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## r0wly86 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, he's a hugely succesful businessman Phil, and he won't be making these calls off the hip by himself. Do you think he's sat in the locker room in Thailand all by himself frantically trying to run an international sports entertainment business 

As for the FEDEX comparison, it's clearly ambiguous, but can be seen as an "exemption" to the requiremnets in simple terms. I wouldn't be surprised if it was brought up in a future legal challenge, which is exactly where this will end up.
		
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Being a successful businessman does not mean you can successfully build a new golf tour, they are not remotely the same thing


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Being a successful businessman does not mean you can successfully build a new golf tour, they are not remotely the same thing
		
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I know a guy who was an engineer, started selling greetings cards out of a van on a market, and eventually sold his company for a few hundred million pounds.

He also bought a football club and took it to the Premier League.

They are not remotely the same thing either, but both are beyond the capabilities of most people.

Greg Norman is a succesful golfer, and succesful businessman, of course he might fail in his position at LIV, but I'd say he's got a better understanding of the business than at least 99.99% of the people on the planet, but more importantly, like the guy I know, he will have the intuition to make the calls/ decisions that matter.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I know a guy who was an engineer, started selling greetings cards out of a van on a market, and eventually sold his company for a few hundred million pounds.

He also bought a football club and took it to the Premier League.

They are not remotely the same thing either, but both are beyond the capabilities of most people.

Greg Norman is a succesful golfer, and succesful businessman, of course he might fail in his position at LIV, but I'd say he's got a better understanding of the business than at least 99.99% of the people on the planet, but more importantly, like the guy I know, he will have the intuition to make the calls/ decisions that matter.
		
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Ah I see so you have a piece of anecdotal evidence then that must apply to all people everywhere.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I know a guy who was an engineer, started selling greetings cards out of a van on a market, and eventually sold his company for a few hundred million pounds.

He also bought a football club and took it to the Premier League.

They are not remotely the same thing either, but both are beyond the capabilities of most people.

Greg Norman is a succesful golfer, and succesful businessman, of course he might fail in his position at LIV, but I'd say he's got a better understanding of the business than at least 99.99% of the people on the planet, but more importantly, like the guy I know, he will have the intuition to make the calls/ decisions that matter.
		
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I've heard of business people that have made football clubs bust. 

Are we at stalemate again?


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## Bdill93 (Oct 6, 2022)

I love this thread man, pure class


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## BTatHome (Oct 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If you're referring to the Tour Championship which has , what, 30 players..it's an event that you have to qualify for.
You don't just get invited, you have to play in the playoffs and you need to play in multiple events to get into the playoffs
It's a million miles away from LIV's setup.
		
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How about comparing it to the Tiger event, which has an invited field of 22 (?). Does that still get ranking points?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			How about comparing it to the Tiger event, which has an invited field of 22 (?). Does that still get ranking points?
		
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Yes - it also took 9 years to gain ranking points and once it made changes and players qualified via their rankings - as opposed to being a pure invite only.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 6, 2022)

Q. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578028567580901378


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## Junior (Oct 7, 2022)

The worst thing LIV did was get Greg Norman to lead the thing.  

If they had employed a business leader who was  rational, smart, empathetic and charismatic then the other tours may have stopped and listened.  As it is, they are meeting aggression with aggression and everyone is losing.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 7, 2022)

Junior said:



			The worst thing LIV did was get Greg Norman to lead the thing.  

If they had employed a business leader who was  rational, smart, empathetic and charismatic then the other tours may have stopped and listened.  As it is, they are meeting aggression with aggression and everyone is losing.
		
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Not sure about that. I think the PGA would have fought against any rival tour that would have took top players away from their events.

And, by reading this thread, it appears LIV supporters worship the ground Greg Norman walks on. They probably have found it much easier to justify their love of him based on the fact he was an ex top golfer.


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## Depreston (Oct 7, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			How about comparing it to the Tiger event, which has an invited field of 22 (?). Does that still get ranking points?
		
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Took about 8 years of asking OWGR to give them ranking points


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2022)

Depreston said:



			Took about 8 years of asking OWGR to give them ranking points
		
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I don’t know why it took 8 years but cant help thinking that once a precedent has been set surely it wouldn't (shouldn't) take anything that long for other 'small no cut field' tournaments that follow?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 7, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Q.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578028567580901378

Click to expand...


Well if the content of the lawsuit against the PGA Tour is accurate, you can understand why. It would appear that the PGA have told everybody to stay on-side, or else.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 7, 2022)

Richard Bland leading after day 1. Course looks fantastic by the way, 7800 yards, rapid greens, loads of protection from bunkers and water.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2022)

Slab said:



			I don’t know why it took 8 years but cant help thinking that once a precedent has been set surely it wouldn't (shouldn't) take anything that long for other 'small no cut field' tournaments that follow?
		
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It took 8 years because the Hero didn’t want to change their entry process - it was invite only regardless of ranking points etc 

Once they changed to allow entry by ranking points then it gained points 

And other small no cut tournaments also have ranking points - providing they are either development tours or part of a main tour where the majority of their tournaments are 72 holes with a cut , full field and qualifying


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It took 8 years because the Hero didn’t want to change their entry process - it was invite only regardless of ranking points etc

Once they changed to allow entry by ranking points then it gained points

And other small no cut tournaments also have ranking points - *providing they are either development tours or part of a main tour where the majority of their tournaments are 72 holes with a cut , full field and qualifying*

Click to expand...

the bold Kinda sums up the LIV/MENA strategic alliance to a 't' really

No surprise owgr replied with _"computer says no"_ but with WGCs, fedex, Hero events all getting points from the big boy tour plus the plethora (saw that word on another thread today) of other exceptions being made for 54 holes, no cuts etc etc it does seem like the goalposts are moving around (or rather the small print is being dredged up to exclude LIV players)
They'll (OWGR) have to tread carefully to remain credible 

_(p.s I don't give a rats bum if LIV players get ranking points or not)_


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 7, 2022)

This is the statement from MENA


_We have had various communications with OWGR since submitting our 2022/23 schedule, MENA Tour handbook, exemption criteria and our field ahead of our opening event of our new season which tees off today. None of this communication pointed towards any technical reason for the LIV Golf Invitational Bangkok to be treated any differently to any MENA Tour event, every one of which has received OWGR since we were accepted into the OWGR framework in 2016.

We have followed the OWGR Guidelines for our 2022/23 Season. Recently, there has been much talk in the golf world about limited field tournaments and 54-hole tournaments. For absolute clarity, the OWGR itself defines a limited field tournament as a tournament which has less than 30 qualified players. Furthermore, the MENA Tour has always had the OWGR’s blessing to stage 54- hole tournaments.

The OWGR states: “The primary objective of the Ranking is to maintain, review, update, administer and promote the recognition of a system that fairly ranks the relative performance of golfers participating in the leading men’s professional tournaments throughout the world”. Clearly, the MENA Tour’s first event of the 2022/23 season, the LIV Golf Invitational Bangkok, is one of those tournaments and accordingly should be included in this week’s OWGR events. Not including our event in this week’s OWGR render the results and subsequent player movements inaccurate.

As per the OWGR Guidelines , we will be lodging our field for the LIV Golf Invitational Jeddah prior to the deadline of October 12th.

I also want to wish our 48 MENA Tour Members who are teeing off in Bangkok this morning all the very best for our first tournament of the 2022/23 season and assure all of our Members that we will continue to work tirelessly to resolve this situation with the OWGR.

The MENA Tour’s guiding principle of maximising playing opportunities and pathways for our Members and growing the great game of golf remains unchanged.
_
So, they're claiming they've played by the OWGR rules. If they have documented evidence - whcih they will, it will make for an intersting lawsuit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2022)

Slab said:



			the bold Kinda sums up the LIV/MENA strategic alliance to a 't' really

No surprise owgr replied with _"computer says no"_ but with WGCs, fedex, Hero events all getting points from the big boy tour plus the plethora (saw that word on another thread today) of other exceptions being made for 54 holes, no cuts etc etc it does seem like the goalposts are moving around (or rather the small print is being dredged up to exclude LIV players)
They'll (OWGR) have to tread carefully to remain credible

_(p.s I don't give a rats bum if LIV players get ranking points or not)_

Click to expand...

The alliance I suspect needs to be looked into a bit more 

All Mena events are 54 holes - that’s because they are a development tour , LIV events are 54 holes , so there are no events of 72 holes with cuts 

If LIV is joining with Mena then it can’t be a development tour anymore - there is also a lot to be cleared up in regards what members can play in what event. Just look at their schedule- Events in the Middle East for £75k for 150 people, events in the US for £20mil for 48 people who are invited 

And in regards the Fed Ex etc - it’s all following the rules , they are part of main tours that have over 75% events of 72 holes including cuts etc 

No goal posts have moved or fine print , nothing has changed 

LIV or indeed prob Norman thought they found a loophole without it seems understand the requirements 

If Mena and LIV want to join forces and create a new tour then they need to follow the same requirements as all the other tours


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## Bdill93 (Oct 7, 2022)

I do think LIV's stumbling block seems to be the no cut and no qualifying aspects.

They could easily adjust things to suit - but I suppose it would go against what Norman has been selling for the last few months!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 7, 2022)

Slab said:



			the bold Kinda sums up the LIV/MENA strategic alliance to a 't' really

No surprise owgr replied with _"computer says no"_ but with WGCs, fedex, Hero events all getting points from the big boy tour plus the plethora (saw that word on another thread today) of other exceptions being made for 54 holes, no cuts etc etc it does seem like the goalposts are moving around (or rather the small print is being dredged up to exclude LIV players)
They'll (OWGR) have to tread carefully to remain credible 

_(p.s I don't give a rats bum if LIV players get ranking points or not)_

Click to expand...

LIV are the ones, quite clearly, trying to move the goal posts. It has been explained what has been required to get world ranking points for limited field, 54 hole events in the past.

This has nothing to do with going against LIV players. If the PGA Tour decided to run 54 hole events, invite only, then they wouldn't be given ranking points either.


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The alliance I suspect needs to be looked into a bit more

All Mena events are 54 holes - that’s because they are a development tour , LIV events are 54 holes , so there are no events of 72 holes with cuts

If LIV is joining with Mena then it can’t be a development tour anymore - there is also a lot to be cleared up in regards what members can play in what event. Just look at their schedule- Events in the Middle East for £75k for 150 people, events in the US for £20mil for 48 people who are invited

And in regards the Fed Ex etc - it’s all following the rules , they are part of main tours that have over 75% events of 72 holes including cuts etc

No goal posts have moved or fine print , nothing has changed

LIV or indeed prob Norman thought they found a loophole without it seems understand the requirements

If Mena and LIV want to join forces and create a new tour then they need to follow the same requirements as all the other tours

View attachment 44696

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Yes we've all seen that. And we've all seen precedents where exceptions to the primary criteria have already been permitted to have OWGR points in events & tours (its a slippery slope when it starts) 

LIV (as we all know) are simply pushing for these exceptions to be made on _multiple _points of OWGR criteria (what's good for the goose etc) Its a tough ask especially given the 'opposition' is part of the OWGR set up but I don't think it can be dismissed quite so simply as listing the criteria


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2022)

Slab said:



			Yes we've all seen that. And we've all seen precedents where exceptions to the primary criteria have already been permitted to have OWGR points in events & tours (its a slippery slope when it starts)

LIV (as we all know) are simply pushing for these exceptions to be made on _multiple _points of OWGR criteria (what's good for the goose etc) Its a tough ask especially given the 'opposition' is part of the OWGR set up but I don't think it can be dismissed quite so simply as listing the criteria
		
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Exemptions are only made when the majority of the events are 72 holes etc - not sure why that point is ignored , there is no precedent for a whole tour to get ranking points based on 54 holes unless they are a development tour 

LIV don’t have any events that fulfil the criteria and want the whole tour to have the exemption as opposed to 3 events 🤷‍♂️

Yes it can be dismissed that easily 

if LIV had 16 events - 12 which were 72 holes and full field and 4 which were 48 and no cut then they would get ranking points. 

The Hero event is a perfect example - didn’t get points until it changed its qualfiying


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 7, 2022)

Mena Tour Statement suggesting Liv Events meet OGWR criteria. 

https://menatour.golf/news/details/statement-from-david-spencer-commissioner-of-the-mena-tour


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Mena Tour Statement suggesting Liv Events meet OGWR criteria.

https://menatour.golf/news/details/statement-from-david-spencer-commissioner-of-the-mena-tour

Click to expand...

Mena Events did meet OGWR criteria, until they added 48 golfers to their tour and a number of a $20mil events which changed the dynamics of the tour and also meant that they no longer meet the OwGR criteria


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## Backsticks (Oct 7, 2022)

I have reached the considered conclusion that Saudi Tour players should not get owgr points. The reason  being, that they will not play sufficient golf to measure themselves against the rest of the world. A portion of them playing the four majors, makes comparison, and so an overall ranking impossible.

By the same token, the owgr needs to change is name and claim. It can keep its method unchanged. But can no longer claim, world, nor, official. It can become The FedEx Golf Rankings, or some such.

The solution then lies in a LIV ranking. And the four majors defining a (modifiable each year if they wish) list from that of exemptions to the Majors. CAan be top 5, or top 10, or LIV winners plus top 3 not otherwise qualifying for example.

Everybody is happy.

Greg, give me a like here for the proposal, and just get LIV rankings done.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 7, 2022)

Just watched the 1st round of Liv Bangkok, that course looks incredible and only opened a few weeks ago.

However I couldn't play in that heat and humidity 😳

Actually for this event makes total sense for them to be playing in shorts..


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Some round by Chacarra today, puts him in a great position for the final round. Interesting to see as well, how the course has favoured some players who you wouldn't expect to see up the leaderboard while other have struggled. Long holes, wide fairways and very little rough or trees that punish wayward shots.

Great to see Blandy up there as well.


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## Kaz (Oct 8, 2022)

Seems to me there’s as much chance this tie up could see MENA losing OWGR points as LIV gaining them.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Seems to me there’s as much chance this tie up could see MENA losing OWGR points as LIV gaining them.
		
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I've seen others mention that, but it would be dangerous ground from the OWGR's point of view.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 8, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Seems to me there’s as much chance this tie up could see MENA losing OWGR points as LIV gaining them.
		
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I think you might be right there...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I've seen others mention that, but it would be dangerous ground from the OWGR's point of view.
		
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Why would it be dangerous ?

Mena gain ranking points based on them being a developmental tour. With the addition of the liV events and players that’s no longer the case - so their events need to be the same as the likes of the ET and PGAT to keep their points


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would it be dangerous ?

Mena gain ranking points based on them being a developmental tour. With the addition of the liV events and players that’s no longer the case - so their events need to be the same as the likes of the ET and PGAT to keep their points
		
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Because the legalities of it will be challenged, that’s a fair assumption from the MENA statement yesterday, and the OWGR don’t have the finances to fight it without direct support from the PGA Tour, and the R & A - which will then be added to the evidence in the antitrust lawsuit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because the legalities of it will be challenged, that’s a fair assumption from the MENA statement yesterday, and the OWGR don’t have the finances to fight it without direct support from the PGA Tour, and the R & A - which will then be added to the evidence in the antitrust lawsuit.
		
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The rules are pretty clear are they not ?

Not everything can be bulldozed by using money - maybe Mena should have looked at the consequences of going into partnership with LIV and the affect it would have in their Tour , all well and good increasing the prize money but it’s going to come at a cost


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The rules are pretty clear are they not ?

Not everything can be bulldozed by using money - maybe Mena should have looked at the consequences of going into partnership with LIV and the affect it would have in their Tour , all well and good increasing the prize money but it’s going to come at a cost
		
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The rules and MENA’s interpretation of them (as evidenced in their statement) is pretty clear to them - they feel like they are within those rules. If it comes down to a lawsuit to decide who is right, and who is wrong, who foots the OWGR bill?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The rules and MENA’s interpretation of them (as evidenced in their statement) is pretty clear to them - they feel like they are within those rules. If it comes down to a lawsuit to decide who is right, and who is wrong, who foots the OWGR bill?
		
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Why is everything all about lawsuits ? 

If that the new mantra now - try and threaten using lawsuits knowing that one side has unlimited money to support ?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is everything all about lawsuits ?

If that the new mantra now - try and threaten using lawsuits knowing that one side has unlimited money to support ?
		
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Come on Phil, don’t dodge the question - I know you like to throw that one at me.

If it goes to a lawsuit, who foots the OWGR bill?

And everything is about Lawsuits because Jay Monaghan wouldn’t take the call from LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on Phil, don’t dodge the question - I know you like to throw that one at me. 

If it goes to a lawsuit, who foots the OWGR bill?
		
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My daddy has more money than your daddy.

LIV is the spoilt little child no one really likes


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			My daddy has more money than your daddy.

LIV is the spoilt little child no one really likes 

Click to expand...

And yet when the PGA had all the money, it was acceptable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Come on Phil, don’t dodge the question - I know you like to throw that one at me.

If it goes to a lawsuit, who foots the OWGR bill?

And everything is about Lawsuits because Jay Monaghan wouldn’t take the call from LIV.
		
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no idea who foots the bill 🤷‍♂️ Why would i and Surely the losing side would do that 

And the lawsuits are happening not because someone didn’t take a call it’s because one side isn’t getting what the want and they now want to try and bully and pay their way through people 

It’s a sad state of the sport when one side keeps threatening “law suits” and their supporters can’t see the issue with it


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			no idea who foots the bill 🤷‍♂️ Why would i and Surely the losing side would do that

And the lawsuits are happening not because someone didn’t take a call it’s because one side isn’t getting what the want and they now want to try and bully and pay their way through people

It’s a sad state of the sport when one side keeps threatening “law suits” and their supporters can’t see the issue with it
		
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So if the OWGR lost, where would the money come from. 

The company is essentially a computer programme with no employees, and a turnover of £350k.

If Jay had sat at the table with LIV, can you explain to me how over this weekend golf would be detrimental for it?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And yet when the PGA had all the money, it was acceptable.
		
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No idea what you are talking about. You suggesting LIV will just go around suing organisations they want a relationship, or fund lawsuits against them?

All about growing the game I guess. Laughable.


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## PieMan (Oct 8, 2022)

#Golfbutlawsuit-ier 

Seriously trying to work out which tour Saudi Golf will buy next.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So if the OWGR lost, where would the money come from.

The company is essentially a computer programme with no employees, and a turnover of £350k.

If Jay had sat at the table with LIV, can you explain to me how over this weekend golf would be detrimental for it?
		
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Again why is it always about lawsuits ?

OWGR set their rules for their rankings - if they decided a tour doesn’t fulfil their requirements what reason is there for someone to file a lawsuit ? 

And why should PGAT sit with LIV ? Why through the eyes of people like does all the blame lay at the feet of PGAT 

If the PGAT has no interest in working with LIV then that’s their choice but it doesn’t mean it’s all the fault of PGAT.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again why is it always about lawsuits ?

OWGR set their rules for their rankings - if they decided a tour doesn’t fulfil their requirements what reason is there for someone to file a lawsuit ?

And why should PGAT sit with LIV ? Why through the eyes of people like does all the blame lay at the feet of PGAT

If the PGAT has no interest in working with LIV then that’s their choice but it doesn’t mean it’s all the fault of PGAT.
		
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Of course the PGAT doesn’t have to work with LIV, but they clearly have control over the success of the LIV series through their position within OWGR Ltd. So, if they refuse to attempt to work with LIV, and then use their position in the rankings system to attempt to stymie a competitor, surely you’d expect that competitor to challenge that in whatever way they can.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course the PGAT doesn’t have to work with LIV, but they clearly have control over the success of the LIV series through their position within OWGR Ltd. So, if they refuse to attempt to work with LIV, and then use their position in the rankings system to attempt to stymie a competitor, surely you’d expect that competitor to challenge that in whatever way they can.
		
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You do know that there are multiple people involved in OWGR - USGA , US PGA , R&A , Master Committee ,PGAT is one voice .

Nothing has changed to stop LIV getting points - it’s the same old requirements that every other tour follows. Yet LiV it seems don’t want to follow that and are looking at anyway you get around the rules , hence trying to use Mena. 

Clearly LIV weren’t bothered about ranking points when they started out


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## Marshy77 (Oct 10, 2022)

More people need to be like Jon Rahm


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Was there a LIV event this weekend? I guess even LIV supporters are more interested in writing chapters and chapters about the politics of LIV, and not really bothered about the actual golf  

Just had to google it, and I notice the World 2756th golfer won the event. If only LIV had World Ranking points, if LIV had their way that win would elevate him into the top 10.


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## SatchFan (Oct 10, 2022)

I enjoyed the LIV coverage but cannot usually be bothered to comment on it.


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## BrianM (Oct 10, 2022)

SatchFan said:



			I enjoyed the LIV coverage but cannot usually be bothered to comment on it.
		
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Me as well, Chacarra looks some player.


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## BrianM (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Was there a LIV event this weekend? I guess even LIV supporters are more interested in writing chapters and chapters about the politics of LIV, and not really bothered about the actual golf 

Just had to google it, and I notice the World 2756th golfer won the event. If only LIV had World Ranking points, if LIV had their way that win would elevate him into the top 10.
		
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About as much was written about the Madrid open on the professional golf thread, which was also excellent.
The 2756th golfer in the world maybe, but he's just turned professional and was the best amateur in the world before turning professional.
Very ignorant comment in my opinion, at least Jon Rahm knows who he is


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

BrianM said:



			About as much was written about the Madrid open on the professional golf thread, which was also excellent.
The 2756th golfer in the world maybe, but he's just turned professional and was the best amateur in the world before turning professional.
Very ignorant comment in my opinion, at least Jon Rahm knows who he is 

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Given Chacarra has been discussed previously in this thread, I’m surprised Swango had no knowledge of him, unless of course, they are being deliberately obtuse ;-)

Mind you, the BBC can be accused of exactly the same, yet again refusing to acknowledge the LIV results and performances on their website.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

BrianM said:



			About as much was written about the Madrid open on the professional golf thread, which was also excellent.
The 2756th golfer in the world maybe, but he's just turned professional and was the best amateur in the world before turning professional.
Very ignorant comment in my opinion, at least Jon Rahm knows who he is 

Click to expand...

I am happy to admit I am very ignorant in many things LIV. Because I have no interest in watching it. But, if supporters of LIV are just happy to watch LIV events and stay silent, it'll be very difficult to "grow the game". They need to be coming on these forums and telling us how each event was the best golf they have ever seen in the history of golf, and that it is the way forwards. How the team element is more exciting than the best of Ryder Cups, etc.

PS: Even if the above happened, I'd still not believe them, it'll take a lot more changes before I personally take LIV seriously enough to watch it. But, I think LIV fans are actually more interested in free golf, and the politics of golf (including potential; threats for litigation), than they are in the actual golf.


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## BrianM (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I am happy to admit I am very ignorant in many things LIV. Because I have no interest in watching it. But, if supporters of LIV are just happy to watch LIV events and stay silent, it'll be very difficult to "grow the game". They need to be coming on these forums and telling us how each event was the best golf they have ever seen in the history of golf, and that it is the way forwards. How the team element is more exciting than the best of Ryder Cups, etc.

PS: Even if the above happened, I'd still not believe them, it'll take a lot more changes before I personally take LIV seriously enough to watch it. But, I think LIV fans are actually more interested in free golf, and the politics of golf (including potential; threats for litigation), than they are in the actual golf.
		
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I'm a golf fan, any tour to be fair.
The courses in Thailand and Madrid both looked in top condition for their respective competitions.
I'm not sure about more interested in the free bit, Bit of a generalisation is it not? I'm personally subscribed to every sport channel you can get in the UK.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Given Chacarra has been discussed previously in this thread, I’m surprised Swango had no knowledge of him, unless of course, they are being deliberately obtuse ;-)
		
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I've said before Mel, I don't pop into this thread every day. Sometimes when I do, another 20 pages have been added. I clearly cannot be bothered reading through all these comments. They are mainly made up of posts from you having exactly the same argument you did 200 pages before. So, I may well have missed how special this golfer is. I mean, before this event, I think his best position was 25th on LIV, so the signs on his genius were there I guess.

I just get surprised that so many pages can be posted in any 3 day period, but when an actual event is played, virtually nothing at all. I'd have thought the way you get on, the winner would be announced as breaking news on this thread.


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## Marshy77 (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I am happy to admit I am very ignorant in many things LIV. Because I have no interest in watching it. But, if supporters of LIV are just happy to watch LIV events and stay silent, it'll be very difficult to "grow the game". They need to be coming on these forums and telling us how each event was the best golf they have ever seen in the history of golf, and that it is the way forwards. How the team element is more exciting than the best of Ryder Cups, etc.

PS: Even if the above happened, I'd still not believe them, it'll take a lot more changes before I personally take LIV seriously enough to watch it. But, I think LIV fans are actually more interested in free golf, and the politics of golf (including potential; threats for litigation), than they are in the actual golf.
		
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To look at both sides of the golf marker, I haven't seen hardly anything on here about the Madrid masters. Maybe both sides are golfed out or just so bored of the debate that they can't be bothered to comment now?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I'm a golf fan, any tour to be fair.
The courses in Thailand and Madrid both looked in top condition for their respective competitions.
I'm not sure about more interested in the free bit, Bit of a generalisation is it not? I'm personally subscribed to every sport channel you can get in the UK.
		
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It is a generalisation, of course. It has to be, as I was talking about LIV fans, not one specific individual. Therefore, I assumed it would be a given that I was speaking in general, not for every single individual who has watched LIV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2022)

BrianM said:



			About as much was written about the Madrid open on the professional golf thread, which was also excellent.
The 2756th golfer in the world maybe, but he's just turned professional and was the best amateur in the world before turning professional.
Very ignorant comment in my opinion, at least Jon Rahm knows who he is 

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let’s be honest - I suspect no one knew him until he moved to LIV even being the no 2 in the Amatuer rankings - unless they are doing something in the Professional as an amateur ( playing Masters , winning Silver medal at the Open ) or even doing well on tour events then no one knows them until they appear in Pro events then do well - Hovland the recent example.

And even now because of the limited media broadcasting of LiV then its going to go under the radar.

What is confusing is even across the Twitter  sphere most of the talk about the event wasn’t the young lad , it was all about lack of ranking points , the money someone can win , the comparisons between highlight viewing figures on you tube etc - not much action or talk. And since then it’s all about comparing how much he won in money compared to Kim


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			To look at both sides of the golf marker, I haven't seen hardly anything on here about the Madrid masters. Maybe both sides are golfed out or just so bored of the debate that they can't be bothered to comment now?
		
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I'm not really surprised though. The Madrid masters is an established event, along with the others on those tours. There is not a PGA Tour thread or a DP World Tour thread where hundreds of comments are being added per week.

There is, however, a LIV thread where hundreds of posts are being added per week. Many of them are people telling us how great it is. Yet, they cannot be bothered actually telling us about the golf. That is where the surprise comes in. Don't get me wrong, it is a pleasant surprise in a sense as I'm not really interested in hearing about it personally, but all I was doing is expressing this surprise.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've said before Mel, I don't pop into this thread every day. Sometimes when I do, another 20 pages have been added. I clearly cannot be bothered reading through all these comments. They are mainly made up of posts from you having exactly the same argument you did 200 pages before. So, I may well have missed how special this golfer is. I mean, before this event, I think his best position was 25th on LIV, so the signs on his genius were there I guess.

I just get surprised that so many pages can be posted in any 3 day period, but when an actual event is played, virtually nothing at all. I'd have thought the way you get on, the winner would be announced as breaking news on this thread.
		
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I commented on the professional golf thread about the win, and Rahms. Infact it’s currently the last post on that thread, despite a PGA tour event concluding since, which begs the question - who really cares about the PGA tour?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I commented on the professional golf thread about the win, and Rahms. Infact it’s currently the last post on that thread, despite a PGA tour event concluding since, which begs the question - who really cares about the PGA tour?
		
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I guess PGA Tour fans feel no need to sing its praises as much, given it is an established tour, one that even gives out decent world ranking points


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## Marshy77 (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not really surprised though. The Madrid masters is an established event, along with the others on those tours. There is not a PGA Tour thread or a DP World Tour thread where hundreds of comments are being added per week.

There is, however, a LIV thread where hundreds of posts are being added per week. Many of them are people telling us how great it is. Yet, they cannot be bothered actually telling us about the golf. That is where the surprise comes in. Don't get me wrong, it is a pleasant surprise in a sense as I'm not really interested in hearing about it personally, but all I was doing is expressing this surprise.
		
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Think this thread is made up of both fans tbh. I am surprised more wasn't made of the Madrid masters with it being such a big event. All golf is generally discussed but didn't see much at all about it or Rahm winning it.


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## Beezerk (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Sometimes when I do, another 20 pages have been added. I clearly cannot be bothered reading through all these comments. They are mainly made up of posts from you having exactly the same argument you did 200 pages before.
		
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I’d say they are mainly from people trying to argue with MS, some try to have reasonable conversations but most just seem to be on the wind up.
Could we class your post as such as well? 😉😁


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I commented on the professional golf thread about the win, and Rahms. Infact it’s currently the last post on that thread, despite a PGA tour event concluding since, which begs the question - who really cares about the PGA tour?
		
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when it comes to professional golf most of us don’t watch beyond majors , Ryder cup and maybe the odd event , I don’t expect many on here to be watching the PGA event and most of us will be playing golf when the ET events are on 

Discussion on events would increase if something out of the ordinary happened etc - something I have learned on here is not many actually watch the standard golf events


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 10, 2022)

Ii thought the DP Tour and Liv Tour were excellent this weekend. 
Love watching Jon Rahm..
For Liv it was good to have some different names at the top of the leader board and a different team winner. 
Gutted Richard Bland missed that little birdie putt on the last for tied 2nd, cost him a few quid for sure. 

Struggled to get into the Shriners and didn't watch much of it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			when it comes to professional golf most of us don’t watch beyond majors , Ryder cup and maybe the odd event , I don’t expect many on here to be watching the PGA event and most of us will be playing golf when the ET events are on

Discussion on events would increase if something out of the ordinary happened etc - something I have learned on here is not many actually watch the standard golf events
		
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Huge generalisation. I watched the golf in the clubhouse all weekend with my PP's and then watched a large chunk of the Shriners as well. I'd also sit and watch the LPGA or LET. I watch Sky's coverage regularly of all tours and will even watch midweek when the Challenge tour highlights, Europro etc are on


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’d say they are mainly from people trying to argue with MS, some try to have reasonable conversations but most just seem to be on the wind up.
Could we class your post as such as well? 😉😁
		
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Not at all, in case any LIV fans feel wound up?

The surprise only hit me when I noticed Marshy77's post at 8.57 today, and realised it was the first post since Saturday night. The thought then crossed my mind that I thought there was a LIV event on at the weekend, and it was unusual that this thread did nothing to publicise how it went (given how keen people are to post on it at other times).

From what I read of it, and I mentioned a long time ago, is that even to those that watch LIV, LIV is really no more special than most standard events on the other tours. From a golf point of view. The only thing that makes it "interesting" is the politics of it all.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not at all, in case any LIV fans feel wound up?

The surprise only hit me when I noticed Marshy77's post at 8.57 today, and realised it was the first post since Saturday night. The thought then crossed my mind that I thought there was a LIV event on at the weekend, and it was unusual that this thread did nothing to publicise how it went (given how keen people are to post on it at other times).

From what I read of it, and I mentioned a long time ago, is that even to those that watch LIV, *LIV is really no more special than most standard events on the other tours.* From a golf point of view. The only thing that makes it "interesting" is the politics of it all.
		
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I agree, its not more special - Its about on par with an average tour event - especially with the talent in the field now in comparison to LIV London. 

Its a bit different and at the live event itself - I think its quite good that all the golf is played in a fixed time period of about 5 hours. 

I kinda just hope something gets sorted with OGWR so this thread isn't just a back and forth between those who have always been against LIV and those than are open minded to it! Once that is finally addressed we can surely just all move on with our lives?


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 10, 2022)

The young lad from Madrid won €4.88 milion for winning this weekend.  That is around 2.75 times more than the whole purse for The Madrid Open.

He is now mde for life and good luck to him.

A question for you more knowledgeable guys and there may not be an answer. If he had won The Shriners where  would he be in The World Rankings?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I agree, its not more special - Its about on par with an average tour event - especially with the talent in the field now in comparison to LIV London.

Its a bit different and at the live event itself - I think its quite good that all the golf is played in a fixed time period of about 5 hours.

I kinda just hope something gets sorted with OGWR so this thread isn't just a back and forth between those who have always been against LIV and those than are open minded to it! *Once that is finally addressed we can surely just all move on with our lives*?
		
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I doubt it. These arguments were rife long before world ranking points were mentioned.

In many respects, I think everyone is "open minded", in the sense we all want to watch the best possible golf we can on TV. However, the ones who are still against LIV do not think LIV is the answer. The ones who do support LIV do. There is probably also a large element as to how individuals have consumed golf pre-LIV. There are many that have enjoyed the PGA for years, which is no surprise. It is why it was / is successful after all. LIV has come along, and not only do many of these people not think it is any better, but it is also diluting the PGA stuff they have enjoyed (or even the DP World Tour to a smaller extent). Whereas, there are some who have not watched regular golf pre-LIV (or certainly wouldn't call themselves big fans), and suddenly something comes along that shakes the golfing world. Much easier for them to shift towards LIV, as they have little sense of loss based on what they watched (or didn't) before.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 10, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			The young lad from Madrid won €4.88 milion for winning this weekend.  That is around 2.75 times than the whole purse for The Madrid Open.

He is now mde for life and good luck to him.

A question for you more knowledgeable guys and there may not be an answer. If he had won The Shriners where  would he be in The World Rankings?
		
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If my calcs are correct, from 2756th to 159th, assuming he won the same points as Kim did for winning.

Chacarra currently has an Average Points of 0.000, with a record of 3 missed cuts and a T45 in the Sanderson Farms Championship. The World Ranking Points is equal to the players total world ranking scores, average over all their events, with a minimum divisor of 40.

So, he'd have won 42.18661 points for winning that PGA event, giving an average score of 1.054665. That would place him 2 spots ahead of Rickie Fowler


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			The young lad from Madrid won €4.88 milion for winning this weekend.  That is around 2.75 times more than the whole purse for The Madrid Open.

He is now mde for life and good luck to him.

A question for you more knowledgeable guys and there may not be an answer. If he had won The Shriners where  would he be in The World Rankings?
		
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If he won the Shriners he would go to around 150 , he would also now have entry into the USPGA , The Masters, US Open , a PGAT card .

But he has more money now



Bdill93 said:



			I agree, its not more special - Its about on par with an average tour event - especially with the talent in the field now in comparison to LIV London.

Its a bit different and at the live event itself - I think its quite good that all the golf is played in a fixed time period of about 5 hours.

I kinda just hope something gets sorted with OGWR so this thread isn't just a back and forth between those who have always been against LIV and those than are open minded to it! Once that is finally addressed we can surely just all move on with our lives?
		
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I still think there is a long way to go before ranking points occur - I don’t see OWGR changing their criteria so are LIV going to change ?


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## PieMan (Oct 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If he won the Shriners he would go to around 150 , he would also now have entry into the USPGA , The Masters, US Open , a PGAT card .

But he has more money now
		
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And - more importantly - so has his caddy......!!


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## Bdill93 (Oct 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			And - more importantly - so has his caddy......!! 

Click to expand...

And in a few years we will see them at the Masters


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## JamesR (Oct 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			And in a few years we will see them at the Masters
		
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Oh, is he joining a "proper" tour, one which gives him ranking points, and thus will qualify?


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## Bdill93 (Oct 10, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Oh, is he joining a "proper" tour, one which gives him ranking points, and thus will qualify?
		
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No, LIV will get what they want eventually. Or fail miserably and the players will trickle back across.

Either way, it'll happen in time!


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## Bdill93 (Oct 10, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63201500

 Another 16.2 million for DJ


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			No, LIV will get what they want eventually. Or fail miserably and the players will trickle back across.

Either way, it'll happen in time!
		
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They’ll do whatever it takes, and I expect those changes to be implemented quickly. 

Talk of a cut being implemented for Jeddah.


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## Dando (Oct 10, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63201500

Another 16.2 million for DJ 

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that's a lot of Columbian marching powder for Mrs DJ


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## sunshine (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And it's raising the profile of the game internationally. I'd never even heard of the MENA tour until yesterday - and I definitely didn't know one of Miguel Angel Jimenez's sons played on it.

For those guys already on this tour, it's a great bit of exposure and investment.
		
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Have you considered a career in politics? The amount of spin you generate I feel you are missing out on your calling.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Have you considered a career in politics? The amount of spin you generate I feel you are missing out on your calling.
		
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You're not allowed to talk about politics here buddy ;-)


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’ll do whatever it takes, and I expect those changes to be implemented quickly.

Talk of a cut being implemented for Jeddah.
		
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Yes rumours of 72 holes , a cut and bigger fields to fit in within the requirements - so all the “innovation” goes and it’s just a rich tour that’s no different but without a media contract


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes rumours of 72 holes , a cut and bigger fields to fit in within the requirements - so all the “innovation” goes and it’s just a rich tour that’s no different but without a media contract
		
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It's still different Phil, international, shotgun start, team format - different enough to keep it unique. That's if all that happens, I've read the cut is the bottom 3 guys.


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## sunshine (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You're not allowed to talk about politics here buddy ;-)
		
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Lol

I never knew how many lawyers there were on this forum either.


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## Kaz (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's still different Phil, international, shotgun start, team format - different enough to keep it unique. That's if all that happens, I've read the cut is the bottom 3 guys.
		
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That's farcical, if true.

It's pretty clear they're more interested in gaming the system to get ranking points than to work within its spirit and aim of establishing a meaningful ranking. Whether that's by taking over a defunct tour and pretending to be part of that or taking the mickey with stuff like this to literally tick the boxes.

Upshot is the OWGR will probably have to start with a blank sheet of paper to work out how to fairly rank players across such disparate environments.


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## PieMan (Oct 10, 2022)

Talking of cuts in Jeddah is not very good from a marketing perspective............!!!


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## Imurg (Oct 10, 2022)

If the whispers are true that LIV will start playing 72 holes with a cut etc..I actually find it quite sad.
The players were obviously strung along with ranking points being part of the deal.
All the gimmicky elements are just that..the players simply want points and money 
When GN, eventually,  realised that they weren't going to get points he then had to find a way, any way, or getting his players the points he's promised them.
If it turns out that the only way is to, effectively,  become another PGAT then why did they bother in the first place? 
If this turns out to be true it's also confirmation that Norman isn't as sharp as a lot would have us believe...


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## IainP (Oct 10, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			More people need to be like Jon Rahm
		
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Yep. For anyone who didn't see...


He's also continued to be vocal on the Ryder Cup. Know he has a good relationship with Sergio, but also wonder if he has half an eye on Chacarra should he have a run of form.
Hopefully the admins don't slap Rahm's wrist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yep. For anyone who didn't see...
View attachment 44738

He's also continued to be vocal on the Ryder Cup. Know he has a good relationship with Sergio, but also wonder if he has half an eye on Chacarra should he have a run of form.
Hopefully the admins don't slap Rahm's wrist.
		
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I think it’s good that he is allowed to speak his mind and that he has opposed opinions to people like Rory - both are happy to speak their mind but I have no doubt both are friends who just have differing opinions


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## Kaz (Oct 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If the whispers are true that LIV will start playing 72 holes with a cut etc..I actually find it quite sad.
The players were obviously strung along with ranking points being part of the deal.
All the gimmicky elements are just that..the players simply want points and money
When GN, eventually,  realised that they weren't going to get points he then had to find a way, any way, or getting his players the points he's promised them.
*If it turns out that the only way is to, effectively,  become another PGAT then why did they bother in the first place?*
If this turns out to be true it's also confirmation that Norman isn't as sharp as a lot would have us believe...
		
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To be fair, we all know the answer to that and it's nothing to do with golf.


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## Backsticks (Oct 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If it turns out that the only way is to, effectively,  become another PGAT then why did they bother in the first place?
		
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Because, sportswashing.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

I was trying to get the youth to translate the interview with Chacarra - where the information has originated from, but he flat out refused to sit there for 20 minutes and watch it. Kids eh?


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## Backsticks (Oct 10, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I was trying to get the youth to translate the interview with Chacarra - where the information has originated from, but he flat out refused to sit there for 20 minutes and watch it. Kids eh? 

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Face it, maybe he just finds LIV a turn-off.


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## IainP (Oct 10, 2022)

@Swango1980 have not quoted a post (too many! 😉), but FWIW I viewed this thread for talking about upheaval etc. and not the actual golf - that was for the professional golf thread. But acknowledge with so much interlinked these days, maybe more does/will end up here.
FWIW-2, I don't consider myself a "fan" or "supporter" as such, I watch a fair bit of golf across various tours. I respect people who have no interest in watching any liv for whatever reason. I watched some out if curiosity initially, and later because I found it pretty entertaining.
FWIW-3, whilst initially sceptical I have warmed to the team thing. On Sunday 6 teams were in and out of positions 2 & 3, it was fast changing. Bland had a short putt on the last to go tied second individually, and move his team to tied 2nd. He looked under pressure and unfortunately missed.
It wasn't a "DJ & Smith" show as some had predicted.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If the whispers are true that LIV will start playing 72 holes with a cut etc..I actually find it quite sad.

If it turns out that the only way is to, effectively,  become another PGAT then why did they bother in the first place?
		
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Maybe it was all part of the plan, create a radical golf series. PGA's arse drops out, they spunk all their reserves on extra prize money, and paying more players - to copy LIV, and then LIV just go back to a more conventional format once the PGA have over committed. LIV gets OWGR points, becomes the numero uno tour, PGA can't fight back cos they're broke - Absolute Masterplan. 



I'm joking by the way, before anybody accuses of me having more spin than my Electrolux spin drier.


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## IainP (Oct 10, 2022)

Fair play to Rahm, supporting the tournament with only 14 points on offer  - prior to start it did feel like a case of how many he'd win by, not if. But he did it, and picked up a place in the rankings so fair play.
In the US Cantlay would have also been favourite beforehand, but could only manage T2 - what a story Joohyung Kim is turning out to be, though.
Perhaps slightly ironic that the Koreans (4 in top ten), and particularly 'Tom' are carrying the storylines currently. Be good if they could 'resolve' the military service piece.


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## IainP (Oct 10, 2022)

Ooh, if I was active on the twitter-sphere could probably start a rumour that the 'liv-bots' have hacked the owgr site! 😂

Here are this week's events (currently)


A glitch in the owgr matrix I guess.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 11, 2022)

IainP said:



			Ooh, if I was active on the twitter-sphere could probably start a rumour that the 'liv-bots' have hacked the owgr site! 😂

Here are this week's events (currently)
View attachment 44742

A glitch in the owgr matrix I guess.
		
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I wonder who actually monitors this system - it's still not updated, or temporarily taken down, but surely those numbers aren't correct?

Accoring to the most recent set of accounts, their fixed assets stated as "Computer Systems" was valued at £15,000 in 2021, the system that went live recently was funded by an additional £350,000 that was shared equally by contributions from all of the tours that are represented by the OWGR board, but as I said a few pages back, they have no employees. I'm guessing it must be subbed out - let's hope so or the cat will definitley be among the pigeons come the weekend.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 11, 2022)

Does seem that European Giants Jon Rahm and Rory McIlroy are not on the same page.

In a recent interview JR expressed his displeasure at Rorys and TWs plan for extra no cut events on the PGA Tour.
He also has said on record that he thinks Liv Players should be eligible for the Ryder Cup Team.
Rory has been adamant that they shouldn't get any where near being considered for the team. 
Then interestingly congratulated Gino Chacarra for his Liv win in his winning speech in Spain, something I can't see any other top PGAT player ever doing.

For the record I am not saying for a second JR is open to a Liv move, that won't happen but interesting dynamic of 2 of the Alpha males of European Golf.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/jon-rahm-congratulates-liv-golf-winner-eugenio-lopez-chacarra


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 11, 2022)

Good news. The OWGR website has been updated and the *No-cut *Zozo championship will award the most points this weekend. 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Good news. The OWGR website has been updated and the *No-cut *Zozo championship will award the most points this weekend. 😂
		
Click to expand...

What’s the issue now ? Yes it doesn’t have a cut 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s the issue now ? Yes it doesn’t have a cut 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

And yet they’ve been told they need one in Jeddah if they want points - and it’s a key requirement for LIV apparently. 

The rules are the rules Phil, so what exempts the ZOSO championship?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And yet they’ve been told they need one in Jeddah if they want points - and it’s a key requirement for LIV apparently.

The rules are the rules Phil, so what exempts the ZOSO championship?
		
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🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

How many times does it need explaining to you 

Zozo is one tournament that’s hosted within a tour that fulfils the criteria required, as we have seen on many times there are certain events that are allowed to be no cut smaller fields - Fed Ex etc - because over 75% of the tours events are full field , have a cut , qualifying etc - everything that’s required

LIV are a tour - we aren’t talking about single events - the whole tour is 48 players , 54 holes and no cut - zero events fulfil the requirements across the whole tour 

Yourself and all those other LiV fans are trying to compare single events with a whole tour , it’s the same lack of understanding and thinking that Greg Norman suffers with


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

How many times does it need explaining to you

Zozo is one tournament that’s hosted within a tour that fulfils the criteria required, as we have seen on many times there are certain events that are allowed to be no cut smaller fields - Fed Ex etc - because over 75% of the tours events are full field , have a cut , qualifying etc - everything that’s required

LIV are a tour - we aren’t talking about single events - the whole tour is 48 players , 54 holes and no cut - zero events fulfil the requirements across the whole tour

Yourself and all those other LiV fans are trying to compare single events with a whole tour , it’s the same lack of understanding and thinking that Greg Norman suffers with
		
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Ah right, so if when LIV get points, nobody will mind if they have no cut events then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ah right, so if when LIV get points, nobody will mind if they have no cut events then?
		
Click to expand...

If 75% of LIV tour events are full field with a cut then yes - it would be the same as the Fed Ex 🤷‍♂️

So next year if they have 11 events out of their 14 as a full event with cut etc then it will fulfil requirements


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## Harley-D (Oct 11, 2022)

Is it just me but I don’t care if I never see the liv players again. None of them interest me and I quite like the ones that are left on the remaining tours especially some of the new talent


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2022)

Harley-D said:



			Is it just me but I don’t care if I never see the liv players again. None of them interest me and I quite like the ones that are left on the remaining tours especially some of the new talent
		
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Bryson is entertainment value, as he did things differently. So it would be good to see him amongst the other elite golfers in the world at some point, although I'm not interested enough in him to tune into LIV (especially as his footage will be squeezed in amongst shots from the likes of Wade Ormsby or Hudson Stafford, players I've never heard of, as LIV try and show as much footage as they can, making it seem like a highlights show). Maybe Bryson will become a youTube golfer, rather than an elite one, so I guess he'll be happy youTube broadcasts LIV, build up those early relationships 

DJ was also a good watch, so perhaps he'd have been good value for a few more years, but that's about it. All of the rest, no interest really at all. Brooks has been a good golfer, but dull as anything, with the only interesting thing about him recently his apparent feud with Bryson (probably all made up for ratings). No interest in Cameron Smith either. Played great in recent times, but I guess we'll never know if he is just a flash in the pan as he has now stepped away from playing with the worlds best players, and those coming through in the future (good 42nd place in the last LIV event though).

The rest of the players I know are all players that were good in the 90's / 00's, and provided some brilliant Ryder Cup memories. But, their time was pretty much up anyway.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 11, 2022)

Harley-D said:



			Is it just me but I don’t care if I never see the liv players again. None of them interest me and I quite like the ones that are left on the remaining tours especially some of the new talent
		
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*My sentiments exactly!*


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## cleveland52 (Oct 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Bryson is entertainment value, as he did things differently. So it would be good to see him amongst the other elite golfers in the world at some point, although I'm not interested enough in him to tune into LIV (especially as his footage will be squeezed in amongst shots from the likes of Wade Ormsby or Hudson Stafford, players I've never heard of, as LIV try and show as much footage as they can, making it seem like a highlights show). Maybe Bryson will become a youTube golfer, rather than an elite one, so I guess he'll be happy youTube broadcasts LIV, build up those early relationships 

DJ was also a good watch, so perhaps he'd have been good value for a few more years, but that's about it. All of the rest, no interest really at all. Brooks has been a good golfer, but dull as anything, with the only interesting thing about him recently his apparent feud with Bryson (probably all made up for ratings). No interest in Cameron Smith either. Played great in recent times, but I guess we'll never know if he is just a flash in the pan as he has now stepped away from playing with the worlds best players, and those coming through in the future (good 42nd place in the last LIV event though).

The rest of the players I know are all players that were good in the 90's / 00's, and provided some brilliant Ryder Cup memories. But, there time was pretty much up anyway.
		
Click to expand...

This x 1000. Plus, the fact that no one cares how overpaid these millionaires are. In fact, I find it rather annoying at times.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 11, 2022)

How much money do you think LIV will be throwing at Tom Kim right now ?

Perfect Liv signing.
Young and can help expand that Asian Market for Liv ROI


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			How much money do you think LIV will be throwing at Tom Kim right now ?

Perfect Liv signing.
Young and can help expand that Asian Market for Liv ROI
		
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I don’t expect any of the South Koreans to go near LIV - National Service is a key reason and fighting to gain an exemption from that via Olympics or Asian Games


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## 4LEX (Oct 11, 2022)

Harley-D said:



			Is it just me but I don’t care if I never see the liv players again. None of them interest me and I quite like the ones that are left on the remaining tours especially some of the new talent
		
Click to expand...

I think the LIV players will regret their decision as LIV gets minimal exposure as an actual golf event. Almost all the talk is about the wrongs and rights of it. Theres very little interest in the tournaments themselves and these players have taken themselves out of the spotlight ther PGA Tour gave them.

The quality of talent emerging now from around the world and through the US college system is incredible and the majority of the LIV players will be yesterdays men. The handful of big names will get exposure but the light is fading on the rest.


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## evemccc (Oct 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Bryson is entertainment value, as he did things differently. So it would be good to see him amongst the other elite golfers in the world at some point, although I'm not interested enough in him to tune into LIV (especially as his footage will be squeezed in amongst shots from the likes of Wade Ormsby or Hudson Stafford, players I've never heard of, as LIV try and show as much footage as they can, making it seem like a highlights show). Maybe Bryson will become a youTube golfer, rather than an elite one, so I guess he'll be happy youTube broadcasts LIV, build up those early relationships 

DJ was also a good watch, so perhaps he'd have been good value for a few more years, but that's about it. All of the rest, no interest really at all. Brooks has been a good golfer, but dull as anything, with the only interesting thing about him recently his apparent feud with Bryson (probably all made up for ratings). No interest in *Cameron Smith either. Played great in recent times, but I guess we'll never know if he is just a flash in the pan *as he has now stepped away from playing with the worlds best players, and those coming through in the future (good 42nd place in the last LIV event though).

The rest of the players I know are all players that were good in the 90's / 00's, and provided some brilliant Ryder Cup memories. But, their time was pretty much up anyway.
		
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Cam Smith won the Players in pretty wet / sodden conditions and then in the same year won The Open at a totally baked-out Old Course…..Sawgrass and St Andrews - two polar opposite courses in polar opposite conditions

I’m pretty sure it’s clear he’s not a flash in the pan


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Cam Smith won the Players in pretty wet / sodden conditions and then in the same year won The Open at a totally baked-out Old Course…..Sawgrass and St Andrews - two polar opposite courses in polar opposite conditions

I’m pretty sure it’s clear he’s not a flash in the pan
		
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Nothing is clear in golf. Maybe you've never heard of players like David Duvall and Mike Weir?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 11, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Bryson is entertainment value, as he did things differently. So it would be good to see him amongst the other elite golfers in the world at some point, although I'm not interested enough in him to tune into LIV (especially as his footage will be squeezed in amongst shots from the likes of Wade Ormsby or Hudson Stafford, players I've never heard of, as LIV try and show as much footage as they can, making it seem like a highlights show). Maybe Bryson will become a youTube golfer, rather than an elite one, so I guess he'll be happy youTube broadcasts LIV, build up those early relationships 

DJ was also a good watch, so perhaps he'd have been good value for a few more years, but that's about it. All of the rest, no interest really at all. Brooks has been a good golfer, but dull as anything, with the only interesting thing about him recently his apparent feud with Bryson (probably all made up for ratings). No interest in Cameron Smith either. Played great in recent times, but I guess we'll never know if he is just a flash in the pan as he has now stepped away from playing with the worlds best players, and those coming through in the future (good 42nd place in the last LIV event though).

The rest of the players I know are all players that were good in the 90's / 00's, and provided some brilliant Ryder Cup memories. But, their time was pretty much up anyway.
		
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Players Champ
Champion Golfer Of The Year - Open Champ
No 2 in the world
9 top 10 finishes in last 21 starts. Including 3rd at The Masters. 
Cam Smith = Flash In The Pan 🙈


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Players Champ
Champion Golfer Of The Year - Open Champ
No 2 in the world
Cam Smith = Flash In The Pan 🙈
		
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Cam Smith could have had his stellar year - he is a superb player but was he going to be a multiple major or be a one year wonder ? Who knows


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## IainP (Oct 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t expect any of the South Koreans to go near LIV - National Service is a key reason and fighting to gain an exemption from that via Olympics or Asian Games
		
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Yep, posted/hinted similar previously  - comes back to ranking points again.
Still this did make me smile and in line with @TheBigDraw 's post ...


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Players Champ
Champion Golfer Of The Year - Open Champ
No 2 in the world
9 top 10 finishes in last 21 starts. Including 3rd at The Masters. 
Cam Smith = Flash In The Pan 🙈
		
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Yes, see my post before yours. There is no guarantee he will be one of the elite golfers for the next decade or more. I doubt there are guarantees for any player, even if they get off to a decent start


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## garyinderry (Oct 11, 2022)

I'm not sure LIV does a great job at actually advertising its events. 
I'm a golf fan who frequents plenty of golf websites, subscribed to 100s of golf YouTube channels, and post on an active golf forum. 
I managed to miss the fact they were playing in Chicago. Day 1 was over by the time I realised. 
How are they expecting to attract the kind of viewing figures they would like if someone like me missed the date for a tournament. 

I see the viewing figures for the latest tournament is well down on the ones based in the US. No surprise there. I didnt see one bit of it live due to the time difference. Quite selfishly I'm happy for most of the top golf tournaments to take place in america or Europe.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 11, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cam Smith could have had his stellar year - he is a superb player but was he going to be a multiple major or be a one year wonder ? Who knows
		
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Oh come on he is no one year wonder 🙈
Or do Liv Players not count as top players now 🤔
Anyone who has watched this guy for the last 3 years knows he is a class player, had he not gone to Liv he probably would have gone to No1 in the world or had  his Liv results gained OGWR points 

Career
6 PGA Wins
3 European Tour wins
2 PGA Australia Wins
1 LIV Tour Win

Major Record
Master T2nd
Open Winner
US Open T4th
USPGA T13th


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## cleveland52 (Oct 11, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Oh come on he is no one year wonder 🙈
Or do Liv Players not count as top players now 🤔
Anyone who has watched this guy for the last 3 years knows he is a class player, had he not gone to Liv he probably would have gone to No1 in the world or had  his Liv results gained OGWR points

Career
6 PGA Wins
3 European Tour wins
2 PGA Australia Wins
1 LIV Tour Win

Major Record
Master T2nd
Open Winner
US Open T4th
USPGA T13th
		
Click to expand...

Sound like another Patrick Reed to me. By joining LIV he showed that he didn't have the stomach for the fight. He took the easy money, and my hope is that he doesn't sue anyone while trying to return to the pgatour.


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## IainP (Oct 11, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			I'm not sure LIV does a great job at actually advertising its events.
I'm a golf fan who frequents plenty of golf websites, subscribed to 100s of golf YouTube channels, and post on an active golf forum.
I managed to miss the fact they were playing in Chicago. Day 1 was over by the time I realised.
How are they expecting to attract the kind of viewing figures they would like if someone like me missed the date for a tournament.

I see the viewing figures for the latest tournament is well down on the ones based in the US. No surprise there. I didnt see one bit of it live due to the time difference. Quite selfishly I'm happy for most of the top golf tournaments to take place in america or Europe.
		
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Fair point.
GM seems to be putting it out there a bit..
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-jeddah-field-preview-and-prize-money

This guy has a view....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578028567580901378🤔

Way back I said similar on time zones, PGAT can be quite handy for evening viewing although sometimes goes on too late. As an early riser I watched a fair bit of last week.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 11, 2022)

Livs event in Jeddah reported to have a cut and going to 72 holes to meet OGWR criteria. 

OGWR rules just stipulates a cut not where the cut is made.

Can't wait for the reaction to this, grabbing my popcorn 😁😁🤣🤣
And off you go 👀👀👀👀






https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/rumour-liv-golf-tour-ready-introduce-cuts-and-expand-72-holes


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2022)

IainP said:



			Fair point.
GM seems to be putting it out there a bit..
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-jeddah-field-preview-and-prize-money

This guy has a view....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578028567580901378🤔

Way back I said similar on time zones, PGAT can be quite handy for evening viewing although sometimes goes on too late. As an early riser I watched a fair bit of last week.
		
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Bit of a silly question from Kostis. Would be like asking why the media don't look at both sides of the Russia Ukraine conflict  

LIV golf is simply a rogue tour that has basically come in and stolen players from the well grounded PGA Tour. It hasn't earned its stripes, but basically put a huge spanner in the works. Most golf related journalists have become accustomed to the main tours, onow them inside out, and followed them for years. Probably been a member of them in many cases. They have done well through those tours, and so clearly support them. 

So, is it any wonder that are not going to start worshipping everything Greg Norman is doing?


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

[


Swango1980 said:



			Bit of a silly question from Kostis. *Would be like asking why the media don't look at both sides of the Russia Ukraine conflict*

LIV golf is simply a rogue tour that has basically come in and stolen players from the well grounded PGA Tour. It hasn't earned its stripes, but basically put a huge spanner in the works. Most golf related journalists have become accustomed to the main tours, onow them inside out, and followed them for years. Probably been a member of them in many cases. They have done well through those tours, and so clearly support them.

So, is it any wonder that are not going to start worshipping everything Greg Norman is doing?
		
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But the bit I’ve bolded is precisely what an objective, sensible, balanced, well-grounded, pluralist media should do in any difference of opinion, debate, conflict, or argument!


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## cleveland52 (Oct 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Livs event in Jeddah reported to have a cut and going to 72 holes to meet OGWR criteria.

OGWR rules just stipulates a cut not where the cut is made.

Can't wait for the reaction to this, grabbing my popcorn 😁😁🤣🤣thr have
And off you go 👀👀👀👀






https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/rumour-liv-golf-tour-ready-introduce-cuts-and-expand-72-holes

Click to expand...

Soooo, who's career would you rather have right now E.  Chacarra or Tom Kim?

Chacarra-$4.75M with no chance for OWGR and no Majors...signing bonus(maybe)?
Tom Kim -two wins approx. $2.5-3M, exempt to the majors and players, tour. of champions, 2-3 year exempt on Tour, National Television, unlimited endorsements, FedEX Cup, etc...chasing Tiger's records. Pension plan, chance to get out of Army duty.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 12, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Soooo, who's career would you rather have right now E.  Chacarra or Tom Kim?

Chacarra-$4.75M with no chance for OWGR and no Majors...signing bonus(maybe)?
Tom Kim -two wins approx. $2.5-3M, exempt to the majors and players, tour. of champions, 2-3 year exempt on Tour, National Television, unlimited endorsements, FedEX Cup, etc...chasing Tiger's records. Pension plan, chance to get out of Army duty.
		
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My post waa about the proposed cut in the next event to help meet OGWR criteria.


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## IainP (Oct 12, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Soooo, who's career would you rather have right now E.  Chacarra or Tom Kim?

Chacarra-$4.75M with no chance for OWGR and no Majors...signing bonus(maybe)?
Tom Kim -two wins approx. $2.5-3M, exempt to the majors and players, tour. of champions, 2-3 year exempt on Tour, National Television, unlimited endorsements, FedEX Cup, etc...chasing Tiger's records. Pension plan, chance to get out of Army duty.
		
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In terms of career to date, then it's comparing apples to oranges IMO. Tom didn’t go the college route, he appeared on the PGAT back in 2020.
Not having a perfect crystal ball, I find it less easy to look forward 20 or so years, but it is clear Tom is hot right now and it's great to watch.
Take a step back, his result in the Scottish open was key to receiving the special invite - would that have been PGAT counting without the recent disruption? His result in the International Series also bumped up his rankings.
Don't really know why everything has to be a negative these days, actually I'd like to have both of their careers! I wish them both well. In fact as a spectator I'd like to see them play in the same events from time to time.
Who knows what the future holds.
I think only one player gained the special membership at a younger age - Joaquin Niemann 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Chacarra will get the opportunity to earn World Ranking points, the lad is 22, has is whole career infront of him. Do people think this current stand off is going to drag on for the next 10 or more years?

As for the topic on golf media taking a side, it was hinted at earlier in the thread with some of the info available in the ant-trust case - they will have been leaned on by the PGA and other tours that are opposed to LIV to stay on side, of course they will use whatever they can to try and stem the challenge from a competitor, it would be naive to think otherwise.


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## BTatHome (Oct 12, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Soooo, who's career would you rather have right now E.  Chacarra or Tom Kim?

Chacarra-$4.75M with no chance for OWGR and no Majors...signing bonus(maybe)?
Tom Kim -two wins approx. $2.5-3M, exempt to the majors and players, tour. of champions, 2-3 year exempt on Tour, National Television, unlimited endorsements, FedEX Cup, etc...chasing Tiger's records. Pension plan, chance to get out of Army duty.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Kim is a flash in the pan ?


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## SteveW86 (Oct 12, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Huge generalisation. I watched the golf in the clubhouse all weekend with my PP's and then watched a large chunk of the Shriners as well. I'd also sit and watch the LPGA or LET. I watch Sky's coverage regularly of all tours and will even watch midweek when the Challenge tour highlights, Europro etc are on
		
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Whilst Phil may be generalising I’d be surprised if anyone watched the amount of golf you have listed.

Do you watch so much for research for your channel, or because you genuinely enjoy watching that much golf?


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Chacarra will get the opportunity to earn World Ranking points, the lad is 22, has is whole career infront of him. Do people think this current stand off is going to drag on for the next 10 or more years?
		
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No,  either LiV will become an open tour (rather than an invitational),  and meet the OWGR half way by amending some of it's other rules or it will wither on the vine.  Suspect they would also need to ditch Greig as the current format was his dream and OWGR points will not be available without some compromise on both sides.


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## Backsticks (Oct 12, 2022)

Why do LIV tour players want ranking points in the first place ? They want to play less golf for more money - they got it.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Why do LIV tour players want ranking points in the first place ? They want to play less golf for more money - they got it.
		
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No one ever said "stuff the majors" though did they?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			No,  either LiV will become an open tour (rather than an invitational),  and meet the OWGR half way by amending some of it's other rules or it will wither on the vine.  Suspect they would also need to ditch Greig as the current format was his dream and OWGR points will not be available without some compromise on both sides.
		
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It’s pretty clear that LIV are open to modifying their product to meet the requirements for OWGR points, so I suspect it’s just a matter of time now until points are given.


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## Marshy77 (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cam Smith could have had his stellar year - he is a superb player but was he going to be a multiple major or be a one year wonder ? Who knows
		
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Yes, horrendous year that.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s pretty clear that LIV are open to modifying their product to meet the requirements for OWGR points, so I suspect it’s just a matter of time now until points are given.
		
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Really,  GN tweet last week seems to say oherwise as he thinks they already have met the required critewia (deluded)

Including being an open tour i.e. qualifying school?    For me, this clearly is the one OWGR won't nor should compromise on.  There are over 2,500 players in the OWGR,  if 48 of those are only or largely only playing in closed events I don't see how it is possible to come up with a system that is designed to compare the recent form of all 2500 players.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Oh come on he is no one year wonder 🙈
Or do Liv Players not count as top players now 🤔
Anyone who has watched this guy for the last 3 years knows he is a class player, had he not gone to Liv he probably would have gone to No1 in the world or had  his Liv results gained OGWR points

Career
6 PGA Wins
3 European Tour wins
2 PGA Australia Wins
1 LIV Tour Win

Major Record
Master T2nd
Open Winner
US Open T4th
USPGA T13th
		
Click to expand...

You miss the point 

Yes he is a superb player and has won well with good finishes at the Majors , but then there have been many players through history that have done the same - someone mentioned Duvall as an example , they have stellar years and top of with a major win.

The question is - will they then go on to have more major wins and more stellar years - and it’s also the same question that can be aimed towards Scheffler 

No one is doubting the guys ability - he has proven that but it’s a step up to become a multiple major winner , some do it quickly , some take a few years to get their second 

If Smith doesn’t win a second major then it doesn’t make him any less of a player. He was the player who finished the season on the hot streak , Scheffler started it that way


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			No one ever said "stuff the majors" though did they?
		
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Well, they should have thought very long and hard about that before signing up to LIV.

And, I am sure they did, as they didn't all sign up immediately the offer came in. They allowed themselves some thinking time, and for many of them the Majors would have been the biggest consideration. A big reason why many have not signed up to LIV. For those that have, they made that decision. It is not even as if they could miss the small print. It was ridiculously obvious that signing up to LIV would likely put a big barrier in their way to qualify for future Majors. Even if their representatives did a shoddy job, it has been the big discussion within the media. Even we have been discussing in this forum for many many many months


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## Bdill93 (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, they should have thought very long and hard about that before signing up to LIV.

And, I am sure they did, as they didn't all sign up immediately the offer came in. They allowed themselves some thinking time, and for many of them the Majors would have been the biggest consideration. A big reason why many have not signed up to LIV. For those that have, they made that decision. It is not even as if they could miss the small print. It was ridiculously obvious that signing up to LIV would likely put a big barrier in their way to qualify for future Majors. Even if their representatives did a shoddy job, it has been the big discussion within the media. Even we have been discussing in this forum for many many many months
		
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with your points at all. But the already qualified players will continue to play. 

The Sam Horsfields of the world have made their beds for now though - picked the cash over the chance to play in them. But if I'm Sam, and really I know I'm not going to win a major, I think he's actually played a blinder for his career and maximising his earnings potential while he can.

Also interestingly enough, Majors have remained pretty chill about LIV in comparison to everyone else


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Really,  GN tweet last week seems to say oherwise as he thinks they already have met the required critewia (deluded)

Including being an open tour i.e. qualifying school?    For me, this clearly is the one OWGR won't nor should compromise on.  There are over 2,500 players in the OWGR,  if 48 of those are only or largely only playing in closed events I don't see how it is possible to come up with a system that is designed to compare the recent form of all 2500 players.
		
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How are they closed events when you can qualify for them? 
There will become a point when the OWGR are blatantly blocking LIV’s application through malice, rather than merit. Plenty of players on the PGA tour are already now saying the LIV guys should get points, I’m sure they also want to compete in majors knowing if they win, they beat the best players in the world. Of course, the next few years won’t be a problem through exemptions but in 5 years time, The Masters might not actually be The Masters, if the OWGR points situation isn’t resolved.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You miss the point

Yes he is a superb player and has won well with good finishes at the Majors , but then there have been many players through history that have done the same - someone mentioned Duvall as an example , they have stellar years and top of with a major win.

The question is - will they then go on to have more major wins and more stellar years - and it’s also the same question that can be aimed towards Scheffler

No one is doubting the guys ability - he has proven that but it’s a step up to become a multiple major winner , some do it quickly , some take a few years to get their second

If Smith doesn’t win a second major then it doesn’t make him any less of a player. He was the player who finished the season on the hot streak , Scheffler started it that way
		
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Indeed, it seems a few LIV fans have completely missed the context of my original post, and jumped on the defensive.

At no point did I say he WAS a flash in the pan, and that he would not have / will go on to achieve great things. I didn't deny what he has achieved in recent times. The very definition of a flash in the pan is someone who goes through an amazing purple patch, and then achieves significantly less thereafter. So quoting his wins to date is irrelevant to the discussion, all it does is define the "flash" part of his career, if it were to turn out that way.

My point was that nobody knows how he will perform in the future. Once he has a dip in form, will it just be that and he will be able to get back to how he has performed recently. Or, will he never regain that level? Therefore, from my own point of view (and my original post was explaining my point of view on the entertainment value of the current LIV players), Smith is still not a major draw for me. He is just another player who has had a great year. Same could be said for Scheffler, great year but will he continue that into the future? If I could choose to have them in a tournament I am watching or not, then I'd still put them in it as they are clearly playing well. But, if they were not there, I just wouldn't be bothered. If they had another 5 or so years of sustained high level golf, then maybe I'd think differently.

I like to see Rory play, but it is also good to see Thomas, Spieth and Rahm (I didn't really like Thomas or Spieth several years ago, but they have sort of been up there for a long enough time that it is good to see them compete, even if I don't necessarily want them to win)


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I don't disagree with your points at all. But the already qualified players will continue to play.

The Sam Horsfields of the world have made their beds for now though - picked the cash over the chance to play in them. But if I'm Sam, and really I know I'm not going to win a major, I think he's actually played a blinder for his career and maximising his earnings potential while he can.

Also interestingly enough, Majors have remained pretty chill about LIV in comparison to everyone else
		
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I agree. The majority of the players in LIV had an easy decision. They were either past their sell by date, or felt unlikely they'd ever realistically win a major, so cashed in. Completely understand that. A few of the other top names will have exceptions for winning majors in the past. And, I think those exemptions should be respected, and they should be able to play were those exemptions allow. But, for those players that are worried about qualifying via World Rankings (now, or after exceptions run out), those players will have had to think about that long and hard. There should be no surprise from them, or Greg Norman, that they are not getting World Ranking Points. They should only have been surprised if they (that is, Greg Norman and LIV) had a guarantee they would get them, and then were betrayed. That wasn't the case, and the reasons they don't get points has been discussed to death in here.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How are they closed events when you can qualify for them?
*There will become a point when the OWGR are blatantly blocking LIV’s application through malice, rather than merit*. Plenty of players on the PGA tour are already now saying the LIV guys should get points, I’m sure they also want to compete in majors knowing if they win, they beat the best players in the world. Of course, the next few years won’t be a problem through exemptions but in 5 years time, The Masters might not actually be The Masters, if the OWGR points situation isn’t resolved.
		
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There will become a point? Maybe, maybe not. However, at least you finally acknowledge that we are not at that point yet, but simply believe it might be an issue at some point in the future.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			How are they closed events when you can qualify for them?
There will become a point when the OWGR are blatantly blocking LIV’s application through malice, rather than merit. Plenty of players on the PGA tour are already now saying the LIV guys should get points, I’m sure they also want to compete in majors knowing if they win, they beat the best players in the world. Of course, the next few years won’t be a problem through exemptions but in 5 years time, The Masters might not actually be The Masters, if the OWGR points situation isn’t resolved.
		
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So what was the qualifying process for the recent event in Thailand? Or the one previously in the US and indeed the one coming up in Saudi Arabia ?

Can someone from another tour qualify for the upcoming event on a Monday qualifying event ? Or via their position in the rankings ? Or via a recent high position in an event ?

But there are still so many areas that need to be fulfilled before points are awarded and everyone knows that - well apart from Norman and BDC who appear to believe that the events already fulfil what’s needed

But when it comes to ranking points you would have hoped or expected the CEO ( Greg Norman ) to have it all sorted before the events started so that the players knew exactly where they stood - it’s the same with the bans from other tours. But GN clearly didn’t think everything through 

Most of the main players will continue to play majors for a good period anyway - and when they do play majors that then gives them chances for ranking points and further exemptions


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what was the qualifying process for the recent event in Thailand? Or the one previously in the US and indeed the one coming up in Saudi Arabia ?

Can someone from another tour qualify for the upcoming event on a Monday qualifying event ? Or via their position in the rankings ? Or via a recent high position in an event ?

But there are still so many areas that need to be fulfilled before points are awarded and everyone knows that - well apart from Norman and BDC who appear to believe that the events already fulfil what’s needed

But when it comes to ranking points you would have hoped or expected the CEO ( Greg Norman ) to have it all sorted before the events started so that the players knew exactly where they stood - it’s the same with the bans from other tours. But GN clearly didn’t think everything through

Most of the main players will continue to play majors for a good period anyway - and when they do play majors that then gives them chances for ranking points and further exemptions
		
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I suspect qualifying is something like this:

There are 3 spots up for grabs, available for a specific group of golfers. That group of golfers enter into a tournament of Sudoku or Poker or something else. The top 3 players in whatever type of game they play qualify for LIV. Due to this qualification criteria, Greg Norman has now ticked the qualification box, and demands World Ranking Points


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what was the qualifying process for the recent event in Thailand? Or the one previously in the US and indeed the one coming up in Saudi Arabia ?

Can someone from another tour qualify for the upcoming event on a Monday qualifying event ? Or via their position in the rankings ? Or via a recent high position in an event ?

But there are still so many areas that need to be fulfilled before points are awarded and everyone knows that - well apart from Norman and BDC who appear to believe that the events already fulfil what’s needed

But when it comes to ranking points you would have hoped or expected the CEO ( Greg Norman ) to have it all sorted before the events started so that the players knew exactly where they stood - it’s the same with the bans from other tours. But GN clearly didn’t think everything through

Most of the main players will continue to play majors for a good period anyway - and when they do play majors that then gives them chances for ranking points and further exemptions
		
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Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2022)

Assuming there’s no ban on entry to Majors for liv players who qualify, the OWGR points have to be sorted out before April or it just gets real messy
Let’s say Smith (or a.n other) wins The Open in 202*5*, he’d get 100 ORGR points plus lets say he picks up a few more points at the other Majors. That’s then divided by number of events in last two years (that’s 8, just the majors since liv tour doesn’t qualify as an event)

That’ll give him (roughly) an OWGR ranking of 12 and maybe as much as 20 and he’d sit top of the OWGR tree for quite some time without playing any other recognised events
There’s probably a minimum number of events to be played within the points formula to prevent the above scenario happening but that in itself just means Smith (or a.n other) liv player could win all the Majors in 2025 and not even be listed at all in the world rankings (who’d want to be sitting as owgr No1 in that scenario? Biggest sporting bridesmaid in history)  

One way or t'other it'll get sorted out


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.
		
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So, ignoring all the other reasons for not awarding points, you acknowledge that there is currently no qualification process for the LIV tour and therefore they don't currently meet the criteria for OWGR points to be awarded.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

It strikes me that, if Greg Norman and those associated with LIV feel hard done by and alienated by the golfing world, for example in relation to World Ranking Points, they only have themselves to blame. It might be down to one of the worst business plans of all time.

It is clear that LIV tried to change as many things as they could for LIV to make it different, and they tried to invite as many of the biggest golfing stars to give it credibility, and offering them huge signing on bonuses to tempt as many of them as possible. Sure, getting some of the biggest golf stars is nice, and will certainly attract viewers. Problem is, the way they've gone about it, they've manage to alienate even more of the worlds best golfing stars. They could have tipped the balance in their favour if most of the worlds best golfers went to LIV. But, as that is not the case, there is a nett negative feeling towards LIV rather than positive.

If they genuinely wanted to create a sustained golf tour, with a heap more credibility, why didn't they set up a format that would meet the criteria for World Ranking Points? They could have refined things as much as possible around that to make things different, but ensure that they ticked all the boxes for those points. They could have set up qualification criteria, rather than just picking and choosing players based on how big they think that player is. For example, they could have started by saying that qualification is set via the World Rankings, and maybe have some other spots for the top golfer in each continent. The prize money would be massive as it is now (maybe more, if they are not throwing money for signing on bonuses). Sure, maybe many of the top golfers would initially say no, but you just offer the spots to the next guy in the rankings. Clearly, they'd get themselves a full field as many would have been tempted by the money.

They'd have then had a tour, that met the criteria for Ranking Points, and would still tempt many top golfers. It would have been much more difficult for the PGA to fight this I suspect, as it would remove many of their arguments against LIV


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Slab said:



			Assuming there’s no ban on entry to Majors for liv players who qualify, the OWGR points have to be sorted out before April or it just gets real messy
Let’s say Smith (or a.n other) wins The Open in 202*5*, he’d get 100 ORGR points plus lets say he picks up a few more points at the other Majors. That’s then divided by number of events in last two years (that’s 8, just the majors since liv tour doesn’t qualify as an event)

That’ll give him (roughly) an OWGR ranking of 12 and maybe as much as 20 and he’d sit top of the OWGR tree for quite some time without playing any other recognised events
There’s probably a minimum number of events to be played within the points formula to prevent the above scenario happening but that in itself just means Smith (or a.n other) liv player could win all the Majors in 2025 and not even be listed at all in the world rankings (who’d want to be sitting as owgr No1 in that scenario? Biggest sporting bridesmaid in history) 

One way or t'other it'll get sorted out
		
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The minimum divisor is 40


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.
		
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So there was nothing for the current events - so it was correct when someone said they are closed events ?

And the qualification “process” that is supposed to be in play next year still has plenty of holes and issues and still not really been confirmed or official 

3 or 4 spots is it for the whole year via a “promotion” tournament and one spot via Asian International money list
Still no Monday qualifying 
Players are still “invited” and put on contract so will not be “relegated”
And many of the players “exempt”


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The minimum divisor is 40
		
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I figured there would be, so scenario 2 really cant be allowed to (potentially) happen. They really can't have a liv golfer picking up a couple of wins & runner ups in Majors and Mr pgat/et who didn't win any sitting as world No1


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Slab said:



			I figured there would be, so scenario 2 really cant be allowed to (potentially) happen. They really can't have a liv golfer picking up a couple of wins & runner ups in Majors and Mr pgat/et who didn't win any sitting as world No1
		
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Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks win a major in the future, fair play to them. But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour (to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed, it seems a few LIV fans have completely missed the context of my original post, and jumped on the defensive.

At no point did I say he WAS a flash in the pan, and that he would not have / will go on to achieve great things. I didn't deny what he has achieved in recent times. The very definition of a flash in the pan is someone who goes through an amazing purple patch, and then achieves significantly less thereafter. So quoting his wins to date is irrelevant to the discussion, all it does is define the "flash" part of his career, if it were to turn out that way.

My point was that nobody knows how he will perform in the future. Once he has a dip in form, will it just be that and he will be able to get back to how he has performed recently. Or, will he never regain that level? Therefore, from my own point of view (and my original post was explaining my point of view on the entertainment value of the current LIV players), Smith is still not a major draw for me. He is just another player who has had a great year. Same could be said for Scheffler, great year but will he continue that into the future? If I could choose to have them in a tournament I am watching or not, then I'd still put them in it as they are clearly playing well. But, if they were not there, I just wouldn't be bothered. If they had another 5 or so years of sustained high level golf, then maybe I'd think differently.

I like to see Rory play, but it is also good to see Thomas, Spieth and Rahm (I didn't really like Thomas or Spieth several years ago, but they have sort of been up there for a long enough time that it is good to see them compete, even if I don't necessarily want them to win)
		
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Personally, I would put Cam Smith’s record in big events above Justin Thomas - and for me, in terms of the eye-test, he has a higher ceiling than Thomas — and is immeasurably more appealing

We’re all welcome to our own opinions, but I wonder if you think Morikawa is also a flash in the pan? He failed to win on the PGA Tour this year, and Lucas Herbert, Luke List, Ryan Brehm, Chad Ramey, Trey Mullinax and Chez Reavie all did…

Cameron Smith won his first LIV event in which many recent Major winners all played…he didn’t beat nobodies…the field in the PGA Tour changes each event, it’s not always a stacked field…something which Premier Golf League, LIV Golf, Rory all acknowledge—-hence the PGA Tours recent changes going forward


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks* win a major* in the future, fair play to them. But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour (to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"
		
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You're right a liv player picking up 'a' major isn't gonna spell the end for credibility of the owgr... but that's not the scenario I painted
The owgr system will need to cope with worst case scenario (i.e multiple wins and multiple runner ups in Majors by one liv player) who then isn't No1 in the owgr 

Again I don't care if they get points or not I'm just saying what the owgr need to do to protect its credibility (ban/exclude them or sort it out)


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks win a major in the future, fair play to them. *But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour *(to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"
		
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You realise that that concept is literally the same that the Premier Golf League came up with. That Rory stated he was open to it, that it had good ideas. That NLU heralded. Stalwarts of the contemporary golf establishment

You can legitimately criticise it - but it’s exactly what was heralded in 2019 by others, before and aside from LIV


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Personally, I would put Cam Smith’s record in big events above Justin Thomas - and for me, in terms of the eye-test, he has a higher ceiling than Thomas — and is immeasurably more appealing

We’re all welcome to our own opinions, but I wonder if you think Morikawa is also a flash in the pan? He failed to win on the PGA Tour this year, and Lucas Herbert, Luke List, Ryan Brehm, Chad Ramey, Trey Mullinax and Chez Reavie all did…

Cameron Smith won his first LIV event in which many recent Major winners all played…he didn’t beat nobodies…the field in the PGA Tour changes each event, it’s not always a stacked field…something which Premier Golf League, LIV Golf, Rory all acknowledge—-hence the PGA Tours recent changes going forward
		
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Justin Thomas ? 2 majors , 1 Fed Ex , couple of WGCs in a total of 17 wins - also been leading money winner on tour 3 times ?! 

And Colin Morikawa has also won two majors now plus 4 other comps - not bad for someone who only went Pro in 2019


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Justin Thomas ? 2 majors , 1 Fed Ex , couple of WGCs in a total of 17 wins - also been leading money winner on tour 3 times ?!

And Colin Morikawa has also won two majors now plus 4 other comps - not bad for someone who only went Pro in 2019
		
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Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above😜)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith


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## JamesR (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above😜)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — *IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith*

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2 > 1


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above😜)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith
		
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Indeed, Morikawa could also be a flash in the pan. And my personal feeling had he left to join LIV would have been similar to my opinion on Smith.

At no point was I trying to big up Morikawa compared to Smith.


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

JamesR said:



			2 > 1
		
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Not all PGA Tour wins are created equal

Not all major wins are created equal

EVERYBODY who is honest would acknowledge that the 150th Open at St Andrews was wanted more than the PGA Champ at for example Bethpage


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## BiMGuy (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Not all PGA Tour wins are created equal

Not all major wins are created equal

EVERYBODY who is honest would acknowledge that the 150th Open at St Andrews was wanted more than the PGA Champ at for example Bethpage
		
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Maybe is is more desirable. But at a much easier course.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Slab said:



			You're right a liv player picking up 'a' major isn't gonna spell the end for credibility of the owgr... but that's not the scenario I painted
The owgr system will need to cope with worst case scenario (i.e multiple wins and multiple runner ups in Majors by one liv player) who then isn't No1 in the owgr 

Again I don't care if they get points or not I'm just saying what the owgr need to do to protect its credibility (ban/exclude them or sort it out)
		
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Again, why?

I don't really know much about other sports in terms of their ranking systems. But has Ronnie O'Sullivan not been well down in the snooker World Rankings for many years, despite many considering him to still he the best? And he has won the World Championships while not being World No.1. The reason being he chooses to play fewer events.

Have there not been examples in other sports where a player has been generally considered the best in that sport, yet not been the top of their rankings? These sports do not crumble, or the ranking points systems collapse. It is just how things work. People will always moan about how ranking points systems work anyway.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			So, ignoring all the other reasons for not awarding points, you acknowledge that there is currently no qualification process for the LIV tour and therefore they don't currently meet the criteria for OWGR points to be awarded.
		
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Currently, no. There will be though, and as I keep saying. It’s quite clear that LIV are prepared to modify their format to get points, so, it’s only a matter of time until they do. That’s assuming the OWGR don’t start blocking their application despite meeting their own criteria. 

Incidentally - I read something yesterday that implied the OWGR had waived their responsibilities to act in the best interests of the company, as required by the companies act 2006 - but I’m certainly no business law expert, so couldn’t tell you if that’s the case, but adds an interesting dimension to the debate if it is.


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed, Morikawa could also be a flash in the pan. And my personal feeling had he left to join LIV would have been similar to my opinion on Smith.

At no point was I trying to big up Morikawa compared to Smith.
		
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Absolutely fair point of view 

But my point is 1) that Smith does now play - and win - in a field with excellent golfers (evidenced by field’s Major haul) 
2) Ans that the PGA Tour field isn’t always so strong — evidenced by those no-names above who’ve won this year AND the acceptance of this as a truism….hence the proposed changes to remedy this and move to an elite field by PGL supported by Rory and NLU, and going forward those changes made of elevated events by the PGA Tour


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## evemccc (Oct 12, 2022)

I may have missed something - not been on this thread in a few weeks 

Seems like the rankings is all about major qualification 

Couldn’t the LIV players just go through Final Qualifying of the Open, The US Open etc 

Simple


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Absolutely fair point of view 

But my point is 1) that Smith does now play - and win - in a field with excellent golfers (evidenced by field’s Major haul) 
2) Ans that the PGA Tour field isn’t always so strong — evidenced by those no-names above who’ve won this year AND the acceptance of this as a truism….hence the proposed changes to remedy this and move to an elite field by PGL supported by Rory and NLU, and going forward those changes made of elevated events by the PGA Tour
		
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Yes, and I never disagreed with Point 1. Smith has done extremely well lately.

I've also never suggested every PGA event is made up of the absolute elite. In fact, I've said otherwise before on this thread, as I've compared the appeal of big standard PGA events as little less appealing than a LIV event from the standard of players alone. That is, LIV fields are far from elite.

Perhaps most of us would like every event to have the worlds best golfers? Certainly when I hear people boasting or mocking events based on field strengths?

Personally, I wouldn't actually want that. The Majors and WGC's hold a special place in the calendar as that is when all the best compete. I suspect if more and more fields were able to attract all the best in the world, it would dilute the appeal to the Majors to some extent.


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## JamesR (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Not all PGA Tour wins are created equal

Not all major wins are created equal

EVERYBODY who is honest would acknowledge that the 150th Open at St Andrews was wanted more than the PGA Champ at for example Bethpage
		
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EVERYBODY knows that two is better than one, as it's a higher number. 
...Thomas didn't win either of his majors at Bethpage


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above😜)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith
		
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Morikawa could well not have another stellar season but so far in three years as a pro he has had two - so not a bad ratio , he was 5th in this years US Open and also 5th in the Masters 

And the USPGA is prob looked down as the “worst” but when it comes to strength of field it has more of the worlds top 150 players in it and could well be the strongest of the Majors 

But it’s very weird logic to say winning two is a worse record than winning one Open 🤷‍♂️


evemccc said:



			Absolutely fair point of view

But my point is 1) that Smith does now play - and win - in a field with excellent golfers (evidenced by field’s Major haul)
2) Ans that the PGA Tour field isn’t always so strong — *evidenced by those no-names above who’ve won this year* AND the acceptance of this as a truism….hence the proposed changes to remedy this and move to an elite field by PGL supported by Rory and NLU, and going forward those changes made of elevated events by the PGA Tour
		
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no names 🤷‍♂️

Are these the lower level tour events ? 

There are 48 events on the PGAT , they vary in terms of strength depending on the entry , there are more Tour card holders than spaces on every event so just like the ET each event won’t have the same field each week , there are also events being held when majors are on

But the likes of - Homa , Rory , Im , Burns , Matsuyama , Hovland , Scheffler , Speith , Rahm , Horschel , Fitzpatrick, Cantlay , Schuaffle, Finau , Zalatoris all won on tour last season - 

The current PGAT caters for a wide variety of the Tour card holders


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Again, why?*

I don't really know much about other sports in terms of their ranking systems. But has Ronnie O'Sullivan not been well down in the snooker World Rankings for many years, despite many considering him to still he the best? And he has won the World Championships while not being World No.1. The reason being he chooses to play fewer events.

Have there not been examples in other sports where a player has been generally considered the best in that sport, yet not been the top of their rankings? These sports do not crumble, or the ranking points systems collapse. It is just how things work. People will always moan about how ranking points systems work anyway.
		
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*Again*; credibility of their current system, as I said. But yeah what you outline could happen too. 
Just maybe the big tours and partnered media will gradually reduce how much ‘stock’ they place in the world rankings every week to the point that it really doesn’t matter if the worlds best player is No1 or not listed at all (that’s just not what they do with owgr now) I'm easy about it either way 

What they can’t do is to harp on about world rankings week in week out as some kind of grail, if there’s a bloke sitting at home supping out of a Claret Jug with his green jacket is on the back of the chair while Rory (other players available) is lauded as world No1 because he picked up his 5th Canadian open and a couple of no-cut wgc’s to sit atop an artificial tree


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

Slab said:



*Again*; credibility of their current system, as I said. But yeah what you outline could happen too.
Just maybe the big tours and partnered media will gradually reduce how much ‘stock’ they place in the world rankings every week to the point that it really doesn’t matter if the worlds best player is No1 or not listed at all (that’s just not what they do with owgr now) I'm easy about it either way

What they can’t do is to harp on about world rankings week in week out as some kind of grail, if there’s a bloke sitting at home supping out of a Claret Jug with his green jacket is on the back of the chair while Rory (other players available) is lauded as world No1 because he picked up his 5th Canadian open and a couple of no-cut wgc’s to sit atop an artificial tree
		
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Historically the World Rankings are mainly key for major entry - not many “harp” on about them , up until recently the conversations when it comes to golf we’re always normally about who won which major and then Ryder Cup - many didn’t really care who was number 1 - players cared to get into certain positions to allow them to get into bigger competitions not so they can say they are ranked such and such 

Scheffler for example is number 1 right now , he isn’t lauded that much for it but people do laud him for winning The Masters

The rankings were started to help sort entry into majors - that’s a key role for them 

The only reason why the talk has increased about them is because of LIV not getting the points now and this idea that they are now “irrelevant” because certain players are playing in events that don’t count towards them - I suspect most don’t care about the points but are worried about those points being used for major entry - that’s the reason why they want them and that’s why they are being talked about so much.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Slab said:



*Again*; credibility of their current system, as I said. But yeah what you outline could happen too.
Just maybe the big tours and partnered media will gradually reduce how much ‘stock’ they place in the world rankings every week to the point that it really doesn’t matter if the worlds best player is No1 or not listed at all (that’s just not what they do with owgr now) I'm easy about it either way

What they can’t do is to harp on about world rankings week in week out as some kind of grail, if there’s a bloke sitting at home supping out of a Claret Jug with his green jacket is on the back of the chair while Rory (other players available) is lauded as world No1 because he picked up his 5th Canadian open and a couple of no-cut wgc’s to sit atop an artificial tree
		
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The world rankings also loses credibility if ranking points are dished out to a closed shop tour, with all the other limitations in play. Too much attention is paid to the top players on LIV, who have already done very well in their career. But, what about all the other players who have not proven themselves, or on the decline due to age? These types of players can still have good weekend, and in a limited field event with no cut, they could finish well up the leaderboard, above the worst case of 48th. That means they could end up with a big chunk of world ranking points, whilst better players on other tours are struggling to get anywhere near as many points, as they've to sustain the form through 4 rounds, against bigger fields, not to mention qualify to play in these events.

So, to stop the above happening, even if World Ranking Points were to be offered to LIV in a similar format to what it is in now, these points would need to be severely limited. If that was the case, the big players you are speaking of could still potentially win a Major, and still be well off World Number 1 as they've not picked up any decent points on LIV.


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*The world rankings also loses credibility if ranking points are dished out to a closed shop tour,* with all the other limitations in play. Too much attention is paid to the top players on LIV, who have already done very well in their career. But, what about all the other players who have not proven themselves, or on the decline due to age? These types of players can still have good weekend, and in a limited field event with no cut, they could finish well up the leaderboard, above the worst case of 48th. That means they could end up with a big chunk of world ranking points, whilst better players on other tours are struggling to get anywhere near as many points, as they've to sustain the form through 4 rounds, against bigger fields, not to mention qualify to play in these events.

So, to stop the above happening, even if World Ranking Points were to be offered to LIV in a similar format to what it is in now, these points would need to be severely limited. If that was the case, the big players you are speaking of could still potentially win a Major, and still be well off World Number 1 as they've not picked up any decent points on LIV.
		
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No disagreement from me there, if they ever get points for a liv event it would need to be fractional & based on how liv change things in order to earn points in the first place 

Even with zero points for liv. What I'm saying is if a liv player has a couple of jacket and jug combo deals under their belt in the next few seasons its the owgr system that'll come under fire if they've blanked him and continue to hold up 'their man' as world No1 as they do now, that's all


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Currently, no.* There will be though, and as I keep saying. It’s quite clear that LIV are prepared to modify their format to get points, so, it’s only a matter of time until they do. That’s assuming the OWGR don’t start blocking their application despite meeting their own criteria.
		
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So that ends the argument about whether LIV should be awarded OWGR points. As one of LIVs biggest fans you admit that they don't currently meet the criteria to have points awarded and yet you've been defending those, Greg Norman etc, who have been saying that they should have points awarded and even arguing for it yourself. If, or when, LIV modify their product to meet the criteria, at that point they can start saying that they deserve OWGR points. The criteria are quite clearly laid out and LIV chose to create a product that didn't meet those criteria, but then start bitching and moaning that they aren't getting points.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 12, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			So that ends the argument about whether LIV should be awarded OWGR points. As one of LIVs biggest fans you admit that they don't currently meet the criteria to have points awarded and yet you've been defending those, Greg Norman etc, who have been saying that they should have points awarded and even arguing for it yourself. If, or when, LIV modify their product to meet the criteria, at that point they can start saying that they deserve OWGR points. The criteria are quite clearly laid out and LIV chose to create a product that didn't meet those criteria, but then start bitching and moaning that they aren't getting points.
		
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Don’t they have to run a tour for a year complying with the rules before OWR points will be awarded?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			So that ends the argument about whether LIV should be awarded OWGR points. As one of LIVs biggest fans you admit that they don't currently meet the criteria to have points awarded and yet you've been defending those, Greg Norman etc, who have been saying that they should have points awarded and even arguing for it yourself. If, or when, LIV modify their product to meet the criteria, at that point they can start saying that they deserve OWGR points. The criteria are quite clearly laid out and LIV chose to create a product that didn't meet those criteria, but then start bitching and moaning that they aren't getting points.
		
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Have you missed the bit where I repeatedly said they’ll modify the product until all the OWGR requirements are satisfied? 

Infact, I don’t think I’ve ever said that the series is currently eligible for points. What I have said, is that they have some of the best players in the world who deserve to be ranked, and if the current OWGR system can’t accommodate that, then it should be questioned.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Have you missed the bit where I repeatedly said they’ll modify the product until all the OWGR requirements are satisfied?*

Infact, I don’t think I’ve ever said that the series is currently eligible for points. What I have said, is that they have some of the best players in the world who deserve to be ranked, and if the current OWGR system can’t accommodate that, then it should be questioned.
		
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Nope, hence the fact that I put that once LIV meet the criteria they can start saying that they should get points. Until then GN and the players, like McDowell has done today, need to stop the whinging about not getting OWGR points.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you missed the bit where I repeatedly said they’ll modify the product until all the OWGR requirements are satisfied?

Infact, I don’t think I’ve ever said that the series is currently eligible for points. What I have said, is that they have some of the best players in the world who deserve to be ranked, and if the current OWGR system can’t accommodate that, then it should be questioned.
		
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Have the OWGR ever said they won’t accommodate LiV? Or just they have to comply with their requirements?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have you missed the bit where I repeatedly said they’ll modify the product until all the OWGR requirements are satisfied?

Infact, I don’t think I’ve ever said that the series is currently eligible for points. What I have said, is that they have some of the best players in the world who deserve to be ranked, and if the current OWGR system can’t accommodate that, then it should be questioned.
		
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Your communication skills must be severely lacking, it is probably due to your scattergun approach to just shouting and screaming (from a forum perspective) your points, hoping one day one of your points might stick.

This whole time you appeared to be shouting and screaming that LIV deserves World Ranking Points now, due to the players playing. I'll not go back and read every single post, but that is the strong vibe you were giving off. I never remember you saying that you agreed it currently does not deserve points, but your hope that one day it will change enough for them to be considered.

So, can you confirm what you really meant was:

LIV does not deserve World Ranking Points now, but if they change to meet the criteria, then they should be given fair consideration?

If that is the case, I think most people would agree with you. That is, LIV fans and non-LIV fans. At the end of the day, if LIV changes its format and qualifying criteria, then it completely removes many of the hurdles that non-LIV fans have been discussing for months and months. Points that you have continually debated against, but now seemingly areas that you think now need to be changed to get your ranking points.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Your communication skills must be severely lacking, it is probably due to your scattergun approach to just shouting and screaming (from a forum perspective) your points, hoping one day one of your points might stick.

This whole time you appeared to be shouting and screaming that LIV deserves World Ranking Points now, due to the players playing. I'll not go back and read every single post, but that is the strong vibe you were giving off. I never remember you saying that you agreed it currently does not deserve points, but your hope that one day it will change enough for them to be considered.

So, can you confirm what you really meant was:

LIV does not deserve World Ranking Points now, but if they change to meet the criteria, then they should be given fair consideration?

If that is the case, I think most people would agree with you. That is, LIV fans and non-LIV fans. At the end of the day, if LIV changes its format and qualifying criteria, then it completely removes many of the hurdles that non-LIV fans have been discussing for months and months. Points that you have continually debated against, but now seemingly areas that you think now need to be changed to get your ranking points.
		
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So In summary, you’re not going to go back and read what I have said, but what I said (repeatedly according to you) is that LIV deserve OWGR points?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So In summary, you’re not going to go back and read what I have said, but what I said (repeatedly according to you) is that LIV deserve OWGR points?
		
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That is indeed correct. I am not going to go back and read all 380 pages of this thread, extract all your posts, identify which ones discuss World Ranking Points, and then determine what you meant by your statements.

If you have struggled to make your point clear, by Pg 380 of this thread, then that is a failure on your part. Especially when others have responded, and you have repeatedly failed to clarify what you meant. Had you done, then the failure to initially understand what your were saying could have been our / my fault, but then you'd have been able to resolve that breakdown in understanding.

But, better late than never. You have now clarified that LIV does not currently deserve World Ranking Points in its current format, but one day it may be eligible for ranking points if it changes certain elements of its criteria. Although we may disagree with the details on how to get to this point, we are in 100% agreement with the general point that it does not currently deserve OWGR points, but maybe one day it will.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That is indeed correct. I am not going to go back and read all 380 pages of this thread, extract all your posts, identify which ones discuss World Ranking Points, and then determine what you meant by your statements.

If you have struggled to make your point clear, by Pg 380 of this thread, then that is a failure on your part. Especially when others have responded, and you have repeatedly failed to clarify what you meant. Had you done, then the failure to initially understand what your were saying could have been our / my fault, but then you'd have been able to resolve that breakdown in understanding.

But, better late than never. You have now clarified that LIV does not currently deserve World Ranking Points in its current format, but one day it may be eligible for ranking points if it changes certain elements of its criteria. Although we may disagree with the details on how to get to this point, we are in 100% agreement with the general point that it d*oes not currently deserve OWGR points, but maybe one day it will*.
		
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"Deserve" - probably does actually.. Fields are pretty damn strong these days. 

"Qualify according to current rules and regs" - absolutely not!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			"Deserve" - probably does actually.. Fields are pretty damn strong these days.

"Qualify according to current rules and regs" - absolutely not!
		
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Well, I get your point, although "deserve" is subjective, so it depends what one wants to consider. After all, if Scottie Scheffler, Cameron Smith, Rory McIlroy and Patrick Cantlay organised a 4 ball somewhere, and Cantlay won, there might be some that thinks he deserves a few ranking points for beating the top 3 golfers in the world


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.
		
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Which does not meet the current OWGR criteria,  i.e. that each event must have qualifying criteria.   You know full well that LiV is nowhere near meeting OWGR even halfway,  though in my view LiV would need to get to nearer 90% of the current criteria to warrant points being awarded.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Which does not meet the current OWGR criteria,  i.e. that each event must have qualifying criteria.   You know full well that LiV is nowhere near meeting OWGR even halfway,  though in my view LiV would need to get to nearer 90% of the current criteria to warrant points being awarded.
		
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It will satisfy the qualifying criteria for 2024, they could very easily introduce local qualifying for 2023, which I expect they will if required.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It will satisfy the qualifying criteria for 2024, they could very easily introduce local qualifying for 2023, which I expect they will if required.
		
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Will they 🤷‍♂️ But Greg Norman says they fulfil what’s required for ranking points ? Just as BDC said as well ? 

So what changes will they bring in if they already think they fulfil the requirements


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will they 🤷‍♂️ But Greg Norman says they fulfil what’s required for ranking points ? Just as BDC said as well ?

So what changes will they bring in if they already think they fulfil the requirements
		
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As I’ve said MULTIPLE times Phil, they will do what is required to get points.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Currently, no. There will be though, and as I keep saying. *It’s quite clear that LIV are prepared to modify their format to get point*s, so, it’s only a matter of time until they do. That’s assuming the OWGR don’t start blocking their application despite meeting their own criteria.

Incidentally - I read something yesterday that implied the OWGR had waived their responsibilities to act in the best interests of the company, as required by the companies act 2006 - but I’m certainly no business law expert, so couldn’t tell you if that’s the case, but adds an interesting dimension to the debate if it is.
		
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Really,  show me where there have even intimated that GN seems to believe they already meet the criteria when they most clearly do not.


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## Beezerk (Oct 12, 2022)

Christ, the PGA bots are in full flow today 🤣


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So In summary, you’re not going to go back and read what I have said, but what I said (repeatedly according to you) is that *LIV deserve OWGR points*?[/


Mel Smooth said:



			Have you missed the bit where I repeatedly said they’ll modify the product until all the OWGR requirements are satisfied?

Infact, I don’t think I’ve ever said that the series is currently eligible for points. What I have said, is that they have some of the best players in the world who deserve to be ranked, *and if the current OWGR system can’t accommodate that, then it should be questioned*.
		
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Sorry, have done the job for you Swango1980,  though it didn't take very long.
		
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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

I hope that’s intended as a joke, and not intended to try and prove me wrong.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Looks like DJ might be regretting his move over to LIV. 

;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580162350610804736


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## Springveldt (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Personally, I would put Cam Smith’s record in big events above Justin Thomas - and for me, in terms of the eye-test, he has a higher ceiling than Thomas — and is immeasurably more appealing

We’re all welcome to our own opinions, but I wonder if you think Morikawa is also a flash in the pan? He failed to win on the PGA Tour this year, and Lucas Herbert, Luke List, Ryan Brehm, Chad Ramey, Trey Mullinax and Chez Reavie all did…

Cameron Smith won his first LIV event in which many recent Major winners all played…he didn’t beat nobodies…the field in the PGA Tour changes each event, it’s not always a stacked field…something which Premier Golf League, LIV Golf, Rory all acknowledge—-hence the PGA Tours recent changes going forward
		
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Might need those eyes tested then. 😂 For me, JT has one of the highest ceilings of any player. He just has everything and every shot. Some of the rounds he played last season in high winds were unbelievable, flighting in a 7 iron to 17 at Sawgrass, winning a few tournaments while being on the wrong end of the draw etc.


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## Springveldt (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I may have missed something - not been on this thread in a few weeks 

Seems like the rankings is all about major qualification 

Couldn’t the LIV players just go through Final Qualifying of the Open, The US Open etc 

Simple
		
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No route to the Masters or PGA though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I may have missed something - not been on this thread in a few weeks

Seems like the rankings is all about major qualification

Couldn’t the LIV players just go through Final Qualifying of the Open, The US Open etc

Simple
		
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Yes they can - nothing stopping them following that route for those two majors 

Also good to see one LIV golfer can see it how it is 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580187800317874178


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes they can - nothing stopping them following that route for those two majors

Also good to see one LIV golfer can see it how it is


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580187800317874178

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The video where that quote was taken from, shows his comments in their true context. HVIII is a great guy, and fits the LIV series well, I expect he’s great to be around as well. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580180127992131587


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## cleveland52 (Oct 12, 2022)

Hey


Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes they can - nothing stopping them following that route for those two majors

Also good to see one LIV golfer can see it how it is


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580187800317874178

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Hey wait Harold!!! GN on the phone and he wants to talk to you!


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## r0wly86 (Oct 13, 2022)

The more I think about it the more I have come to the conclusion that Norman has really messed up.

Things like sponsorship, TV deals, access to majors, and world ranking points the most basic of things to get sorted, or at least to be advanced discussions about before really starting up. Instead he has splashed what must be in to the billions of dollars already with no TV deal, very limited sponsorship, no guaranteed access to majors, and at the moment no world ranking points.

The issue I think it that Norman has come in swinging his member about trying to prove that he could manage the biggest tour better than the PGA can, so with no strong foundation, none of the things above that should have been sorted, no USP has put himself and LIV in direct competition and antagonistically I must say with the richest, most established, and strongest tour in the world. The way they've gone about it has actually given some sympathy to the PGAT who are hardly paragons of virtue.

Instead, if they started smaller with a strong USP, they could have said they are aiming to make a truly global game, and grow the game. Have community outreach like sending some players into schools or local golf clubs for publicity and community engagement. Even if people protested the source of the funding they couldn't fault the message and ambition.

They could still have large purses, but concentrate on getting sponsorship to cover the running costs, and prioritise FTA TV deals in the countries where the tournaments are.

Before starting make sure that they can get World Ranking points and over time try and grow the field strength through high purses and other incentives.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			The more I think about it the more I have come to the conclusion that Norman has really messed up.

Things like sponsorship, TV deals, access to majors, and world ranking points the most basic of things to get sorted, or at least to be advanced discussions about before really starting up. Instead he has splashed what must be in to the billions of dollars already with no TV deal, very limited sponsorship, no guaranteed access to majors, and at the moment no world ranking points.

The issue I think it that Norman has come in swinging his member about trying to prove that he could manage the biggest tour better than the PGA can, so with no strong foundation, none of the things above that should have been sorted, no USP has put himself and LIV in direct competition and antagonistically I must say with the richest, most established, and strongest tour in the world. The way they've gone about it has actually given some sympathy to the PGAT who are hardly paragons of virtue.

Instead, if they started smaller with a strong USP, they could have said they are aiming to make a truly global game, and grow the game. Have community outreach like sending some players into schools or local golf clubs for publicity and community engagement. Even if people protested the source of the funding they couldn't fault the message and ambition.

They could still have large purses, but concentrate on getting sponsorship to cover the running costs, and prioritise FTA TV deals in the countries where the tournaments are.

Before starting make sure that they can get World Ranking points and over time try and grow the field strength through high purses and other incentives.
		
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Completely agree. 

Completely ignored the basics, and gone in all guns blazing, throwing money around, making a lot of noise, and thinking all that would result in LIV becoming the greatest golf tour on earth. Had they got the basics right, had a solid foundation to build from, they surely would have been able to quickly build a tour with a lot more credibility. Perhaps Greg Norman's impatience got the better of him?

The only people I have ever heard of that actually like LIV are a handful of people in this forum. Not met anyone in real life that has any interest in watching it, and only occasionally discuss the politics of it. Maybe all these new fans LIV are picking up are aussie rules football fans?


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## Depreston (Oct 13, 2022)

Norman came in as the disruptor I can’t see him being around for the long term he will be replaced by a more welcoming diplomat in 18-24 months


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## pokerjoke (Oct 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Completely agree.

Completely ignored the basics, and gone in all guns blazing, throwing money around, making a lot of noise, and thinking all that would result in LIV becoming the greatest golf tour on earth. Had they got the basics right, had a solid foundation to build from, they surely would have been able to quickly build a tour with a lot more credibility. Perhaps Greg Norman's impatience got the better of him?

The only people I have ever heard of that actually like LIV are a handful of people in this forum. Not met anyone in real life that has any interest in watching it, and only occasionally discuss the politics of it. Maybe all these new fans LIV are picking up are aussie rules football fans?
		
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I enjoy watching it
No adverts just golf
Couldn’t care less if the winner wins 4 million or 400 million because it won’t effect my standard of living whatsoever.


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## GB72 (Oct 13, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I enjoy watching it
No adverts just golf
Couldn’t care less if the winner wins 4 million or 400 million because it won’t effect my standard of living whatsoever.
		
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I am with you on this. If I want to watch golf, I really do not care who it is, where it is and especially how much the prize money is. I just want to watch some people trying to put a little white ball in the hole. 

The whole thing has put pretty much everyone involved in golf in a poor light as far as I am concerned and that is on both sides. As i have mentioned before, the best outcome that I can see is for the whole house of cards to come down and start a full rebuild as I really do not find the attitudes or stances of anyone involved at the moment particularly attractive.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I enjoy watching it
No adverts just golf
Couldn’t care less if the winner wins 4 million or 400 million because it won’t effect my standard of living whatsoever.
		
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Yeah. I don't really care how much a golfer wins either. I just like to see a group of golfers battling it out, all of whom have qualified to be in the field to compete 

I guess Pat Perez qualified, his qualification criteria being he was DJ's mate


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## pokerjoke (Oct 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah. I don't really care how much a golfer wins either. I just like to see a group of golfers battling it out, all of whom have qualified to be in the field to compete 

I guess Pat Perez qualified, his qualification criteria being he was DJ's mate 

Click to expand...

I understand where your coming from
I suspect by your comments you are not a watcher?
Whether or not it’s all been gone about the wrong way,unless someone is willing to change and start talking,instead of slating each other it will stay the same.
With the womens Liv just around the corner,and these women will be offered unbelievable amounts of money compared to what they are earning.
The womens game could actually take a bigger hit than the mens.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			I understand where your coming from
I suspect by your comments you are not a watcher?
Whether or not it’s all been gone about the wrong way,unless someone is willing to change and start talking,instead of slating each other it will stay the same.
With the womens Liv just around the corner,and these women will be offered unbelievable amounts of money compared to what they are earning.
The womens game could actually take a bigger hit than the mens.
		
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Apart from about 20 minutes of the first event, I'm not a watcher. 

Golf is golf. I fully expect to see good shots on any tour, when pro golfers are playing. I just cannot get into the concept of LIV, as it is really just made up of a random bunch of golfers who happened to say "Yes, sign me up".

I also said before, I didn't like the coverage, as it had a highlights feel to it. I'm not interested in watching golfers who are already miles out of contention, unless there is some sentimental value to showing a shot I guess. I like the build up between shots, discussing the difficulties that lie ahead, especially when you get to the business end of the tournament. I like the focus to be almost entirely on those last few golfers who challenge for the win, and I like it when they are finishing on the same holes, as they all face the same challenge as the pressure intensifies towards the end of the round. The final few holes become just as big a personality as the golfers themselves, and you really get to know what challenges they will present to golfers yet to play them. I don't like it when golfers are finishing all over the course. Scores may seem incredibly tight, and then you realise one guy is finishing on a ridiculously hard stretch of holes, while another guy may have a stretch of scoring holes, maybe a couple of par 5's.

I also like it when the golf is on through most of the day, especially the first couple of rounds. It means I have the flexibility to tune in when I have time, and watch some of the golf. Being tied down to a 4 or 5 hour window often does not suit, although once we get to Sunday, I am more likely to be available for the leading groups rounds in the traditional formats anyway. Only get 3 days of golf with LIV, rather than 4. And, as someone also said, geographically events being in the US (or even Europe) works out well for me, as I can watch in the evening or afternoon. So, from a practical point of view, not much good if events are played in countries with awkward time zones (that is just a point purely down to how it suits me, I'm sure those events would be amazing for other parts of the world)


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## BiMGuy (Oct 13, 2022)

Phil has fully lost the plot now. It’s quite sad to see.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Phil has fully lost the plot now. It’s quite sad to see.
		
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I told him to stick to what he knows best,Hockey 🏑


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## evemccc (Oct 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Apart from about 20 minutes of the first event, I'm not a watcher.

Golf is golf. I fully expect to see good shots on any tour, when pro golfers are playing. I just cannot get into the concept of LIV, as it is really just made up of a random bunch of golfers who happened to say "Yes, sign me up".

I also said before, I didn't like the coverage, as *it had a highlights feel to it. I'm not interested in watching golfers who are already miles out of contention, unless there is some sentimental value to showing a shot I guess. I like the build up between shots, discussing the difficulties that lie ahead, especially when you get to the business end of the tournament. I like the focus to be almost entirely on those last few golfers who challenge for the win, and I like it when they are finishing on the same holes, as they all face the same challenge as the pressure intensifies towards the end of the round. The final few holes become just as big a personality as the golfers themselves, and you really get to know what challenges they will present to golfers yet to play them*. I don't like it when golfers are finishing all over the course. Scores may seem incredibly tight, and then you realise one guy is finishing on a ridiculously hard stretch of holes, while another guy may have a stretch of scoring holes, maybe a couple of par 5's.

I also like it when the golf is on through most of the day, especially the first couple of rounds. It means I have the flexibility to tune in when I have time, and watch some of the golf. Being tied down to a 4 or 5 hour window often does not suit, although once we get to Sunday, I am more likely to be available for the leading groups rounds in the traditional formats anyway. Only get 3 days of golf with LIV, rather than 4. And, as someone also said, geographically events being in the US (or even Europe) works out well for me, as I can watch in the evening or afternoon. So, from a practical point of view, not much good if events are played in countries with awkward time zones (that is just a point purely down to how it suits me, I'm sure those events would be amazing for other parts of the world)
		
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The bolded part is certainly a good point and one to which I agree….having said that, I don’t have Sky and for occasional ‘casual golf viewing’ of run-of-the-mill tournaments throughout the year - whether LIV or PGAT - I’m happy for it to be as it is…condensed, free-to-air, and ad-free

Thankfully the Majors won’t change — we’ll be able to watch golf like that for the Open / Masters etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Phil has fully lost the plot now. It’s quite sad to see.
		
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He has become a parody of himself


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 13, 2022)

Phil not pulling any punches here 😳


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## Harry Putter (Oct 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Phil not pulling any punches here 😳
		
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Can't stand him.


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## Depreston (Oct 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Phil not pulling any punches here 😳







Click to expand...

Dear me starting to believe he actually believes the lies he’s spouting


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## GGTTH (Oct 13, 2022)

He's a right prick isn't he.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 13, 2022)

I get the sense of arrogance and entitlement with Phil.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 13, 2022)

Seems like I’ve not missed much on this thread.
Same people making the same posts 😂


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## IainP (Oct 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Apart from about 20 minutes of the first event, I'm not a watcher.

Golf is golf. I fully expect to see good shots on any tour, when pro golfers are playing. I just cannot get into the concept of LIV, as it is really just made up of a random bunch of golfers who happened to say "Yes, sign me up".

I also said before, I didn't like the coverage, as it had a highlights feel to it. I'm not interested in watching golfers who are already miles out of contention, unless there is some sentimental value to showing a shot I guess. I like the build up between shots, discussing the difficulties that lie ahead, especially when you get to the business end of the tournament. I like the focus to be almost entirely on those last few golfers who challenge for the win, and I like it when they are finishing on the same holes, as they all face the same challenge as the pressure intensifies towards the end of the round. The final few holes become just as big a personality as the golfers themselves, and you really get to know what challenges they will present to golfers yet to play them. I don't like it when golfers are finishing all over the course. Scores may seem incredibly tight, and then you realise one guy is finishing on a ridiculously hard stretch of holes, while another guy may have a stretch of scoring holes, maybe a couple of par 5's.

I also like it when the golf is on through most of the day, especially the first couple of rounds. It means I have the flexibility to tune in when I have time, and watch some of the golf. Being tied down to a 4 or 5 hour window often does not suit, although once we get to Sunday, I am more likely to be available for the leading groups rounds in the traditional formats anyway. Only get 3 days of golf with LIV, rather than 4. And, as someone also said, geographically events being in the US (or even Europe) works out well for me, as I can watch in the evening or afternoon. So, from a practical point of view, not much good if events are played in countries with awkward time zones (that is just a point purely down to how it suits me, I'm sure those events would be amazing for other parts of the world)
		
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Re the last section, I like that traditional approach for the majors, but am okay with something different elsewhere. But if everyone was the same it would be a weird world.
I will say though with some confidence that the Centurion coverage is not representative with how it has evolved. That first one was a tad to frenetic. The last couple of hours on Sundays probably isn't a mile off the established tours, less walking and sky gazing granted, but a lot of focus on the leading players. If anything for me they've gone a bit too far the other way to fewer golf shots compared to how they started.
Not that you'll be interested 🙂 but tee off is around 10:15 am this week


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## IainP (Oct 13, 2022)

10th Oct - 



Swango1980 said:



			Was there a LIV event this weekend? I guess even LIV supporters are more interested in writing chapters and chapters about the politics of LIV, and not really bothered about the actual golf 
..
		
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Anyway, despite Swango1980 adding 30 or so posts, we do all need to pause this thread soon for a few days while the golf is played ... 😂🤣😅😉


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			10th Oct - 
Anyway, despite Swango1980 adding 30 or so posts, we do all need to pause this thread soon for a few days while the golf is played ... 😂🤣😅😉
		
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Someone has to keep LIV from fading to nothing


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			Re the last section, I like that traditional approach for the majors, but am okay with something different elsewhere. But if everyone was the same it would be a weird world.
I will say though with some confidence that the Centurion coverage is not representative with how it has evolved. That first one was a tad to frenetic. The last couple of hours on Sundays probably isn't a mile off the established tours, less walking and sky gazing granted, but a lot of focus on the leading players. If anything for me they've gone a bit too far the other way to fewer golf shots compared to how they started.
Not that you'll be interested 🙂 but tee off is around 10:15 am this week
		
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Yeah, you guessed right, not eager to tune in. Couldn't if I wanted to, playing in golf comps Sat and Sun.


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## AussieKB (Oct 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Completely agree.

Completely ignored the basics, and gone in all guns blazing, throwing money around, making a lot of noise, and thinking all that would result in LIV becoming the greatest golf tour on earth. Had they got the basics right, had a solid foundation to build from, they surely would have been able to quickly build a tour with a lot more credibility. Perhaps Greg Norman's impatience got the better of him?

The only people I have ever heard of that actually like LIV are a handful of people in this forum. Not met anyone in real life that has any interest in watching it, and only occasionally discuss the politics of it. Maybe all these new fans LIV are picking up are aussie rules football fans?
		
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Have to reply to that aussie rules fan comment.....try something more original please.
My local Pro loves LIV, pointed out how many opportunities have opened up for other Pro's, which I think is very rarely mentioned.

We are looking forward to finally seeing Cam Smith back in OZ, plus a heap of other Major winners, been a long time here since we have seen a decent field due to the PGA creating the wrap around season, which killed the OZ tour and others, another example of PGA spreading the game to the USA and nowhere else.


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Seems like I’ve not missed much on this thread.
Same people making the same posts 😂
		
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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Have to reply to that aussie rules fan comment.....try something more original please.
My local Pro loves LIV, pointed out how many opportunities have opened up for other Pro's, which I think is very rarely mentioned.

We are looking forward to finally seeing Cam Smith back in OZ, plus a heap of other Major winners, been a long time here since we have seen a decent field due to the PGA creating the wrap around season, which killed the OZ tour and others, another example of PGA spreading the game to the USA and nowhere else.
		
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Actually, the Aussie Rules football fans was a sport I picked completely at random. I could have picked any sport in the world, except golf, as the only point I was making that LIV has appeared to have created virtually zero enthusiasm.in the golfing circles I am in, and this forum is the only place I hear from supporters. Now I think of it, I can see why the Aussie Rules football issue might be linked to Greg Norman and Cam Smith. That was completely unintentional on my part. Not sure if I subconsciously picked the sport, or complete fluke. 

Do you mean the opportunities it gives to golfers that would not have been good enough to play on other tours, but now that the LIV players have been removed, they can now play? Or the players on LIV that no one had ever heard of, but have now won a golfing lottery ticket?

I agree that it would be good if the PGA Tour had gone more global, and played events in Oz and all sorts of other places. I don't think LIV is the ultimate answer to solve this, but no doubt it might be the only one ticking that box for you at this time.


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## Harry Putter (Oct 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			My local Pro loves LIV, pointed out how many opportunities have opened up for other Pro's, which I think is very rarely mentioned.
		
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Genuine question, I'm intrigued - what opportunities have opened up for other pros that weren't there before, and could be achieved on the open market through hard work and talent? And how many 'other' pros has LIV helped?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 14, 2022)

Harry Putter said:



			Genuine question, I'm intrigued - what opportunities have opened up for other pros that weren't there before, and could be achieved on the open market through hard work and talent? And how many 'other' pros has LIV helped?
		
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Liv has opened up many more opportunity's on the PGA Tour. 
One being the strategic alliance with the DP World Tour that has created more automatic qualifying spots and more Co sanctioned events increasing money on DPWT. 

Rookie players on PGAT now get £500,000 up front to help with expenses in 1st year. 

Also the purses on the PGAT have greatly increased. 

Im sure its had a positive effect on getting on tour from the Korn Ferry as well but I'm not an expert on that. 

It's wrong to think that Liv has had a totally negative effect on golf in general. 

What it has done is split the worlds best players between tours and use a format many don't consider as traditional golf, the majority of top players still play on PGAT but it remains to be seen how many more will move across. 

In my opinion many more of the worlds top 50 players will move If Liv gets OWGR points so you can play for way more money and climb the rankings for qualifying for majors. 
Thats why this OWGR is such a big decision and the PGAT/DPWT know it and they both sit on the board of OWGR.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 14, 2022)

The problem for LIV is the timescales involved in them meeting the criteria for getting points and then actually being awarded them, which could take a year from when they finally meet the criteria. During this period all the LIV players rankings will be dropping which will have a knock on effect when it comes to the field strength calculation as part of awarding points. So they'll be playing for fewer points, making it more difficult to climb up the rankings, and therefore making it harder to increase the field strength rating.


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## AussieKB (Oct 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Actually, the Aussie Rules football fans was a sport I picked completely at random. I could have picked any sport in the world, except golf, as the only point I was making that LIV has appeared to have created virtually zero enthusiasm.in the golfing circles I am in, and this forum is the only place I hear from supporters. Now I think of it, I can see why the Aussie Rules football issue might be linked to Greg Norman and Cam Smith. That was completely unintentional on my part. Not sure if I subconsciously picked the sport, or complete fluke.

Do you mean the opportunities it gives to golfers that would not have been good enough to play on other tours, but now that the LIV players have been removed, they can now play? Or the players on LIV that no one had ever heard of, but have now won a golfing lottery ticket?

I agree that it would be good if the PGA Tour had gone more global, and played events in Oz and all sorts of other places. I don't think LIV is the ultimate answer to solve this, but no doubt it might be the only one ticking that box for you at this time.
		
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There are plenty of golfers good enough to play on the PGA but do not get the chance, but now there are more spots available, can only be a good thing if you are a Pro who is on the border line.

I know 80% plus on the LIV tour, cannot say the same for the PGA or DP tour.

PGA Tour willl only go global to stop other tours threatening there market, they do not care about anyone but themselves, and like I said here in OZ we get to see our home grown stars returning to play events over our summer, can only be a good thing for us to be able to see world class players live.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 14, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem for LIV is the timescales involved in them meeting the criteria for getting points and then actually being awarded them, which could take a year from when they finally meet the criteria. During this period all the LIV players rankings will be dropping which will have a knock on effect when it comes to the field strength calculation as part of awarding points. So they'll be playing for fewer points, making it more difficult to climb up the rankings, and therefore making it harder to increase the field strength rating.
		
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Some of the existing LIV players rankings will drop (those at the top who generally have some major exemptions) but those coming over to LIV will still be strong, which will boost field strength in future events. 
The OWGR ratings debate isn’t the showstopper some think it will be.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			There are plenty of golfers good enough to play on the PGA but do not get the chance, but now there are more spots available, can only be a good thing if you are a Pro who is on the border line.

I know 80% plus on the LIV tour, cannot say the same for the PGA or DP tour.

PGA Tour willl only go global to stop other tours threatening there market, they do not care about anyone but themselves, and like I said here in OZ we get to see our home grown stars returning to play events over our summer, can only be a good thing for us to be able to see world class players live.
		
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To be fair, if you support a tour, it is much easier to get to know 80% of the players if there is only a total field size.

Perhaps the issue is we still think too much about individual geographical tours, and worry about standing on each others toes? After all, if all tours had the same starting point, the best players would still gravitate towards one tour. As one tour will generally provide better money, playing conditions, opportunities to progress their career, etc. That is why the PGA is so successful, it was the geographical location that offered the best opportunities for the best players.

If tours forgot about being based on geographical location, and more to do with level of players, then perhaps it would be much easier for the highest level tour to expand globally, without upsetting other tours?

Personally, I'd like to see the PGA branch out to other countries across the world. Even if they kept a similar calendar, primarily in the US (for the large market there), could they run events in parallel? Maybe 20 or so a year, across all continents. Those events could have more prize money than the local US ones, to try and encourage golfers to do a bit of travelling. And I'm sure Aus golfers would play in Australian events, South Africans in South Africa, etc? Just a random thought, as I rush to get ready for a work meeting


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2022)

Should LIV eventually get ranking points then the lure of the money and points will be hard to resist.
But.....
I suspect the likes of Rory, JT. CM etc etc may prefer to be in control of their schedules and not be told where and when they have to play..


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## Depreston (Oct 14, 2022)

jeeze 16k viewers


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## IainP (Oct 14, 2022)

Depreston said:



			jeeze 16k viewers
		
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Context?
Website 
TV
Youtube 
?


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## Backsticks (Oct 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Some of the existing LIV players rankings will drop (those at the top who generally have some major exemptions) but those coming over to LIV will still be strong, which will boost field strength in future events.
The OWGR ratings debate isn’t the showstopper some think it will be.
		
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Those coming over will be the qualifiers now though, so how many is that, 3 per year ? And qualifiers wont necessarily be those with high owgr points. So the effect in to LIV could be minimal.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Those coming over will be the qualifiers now though, so how many is that, 3 per year ? And qualifiers wont necessarily be those with high owgr points. So the effect in to LIV could be minimal.
		
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When LIV get OWGR points, there’ll be plenty of players come over from the other tours besides those coming through the annual qualification. You can be sure of that.


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## IainP (Oct 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			When LIV get OWGR points, there’ll be plenty of players come over from the other tours besides those coming through the annual qualification. You can be sure of that.
		
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I don't see that _if_ it sticks to 48 players.
But I'm not great at future gazing.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			I don't see that _if_ it sticks to 48 players.
But I'm not great at future gazing.
		
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I'm sure LIV will have no problem binning the numerous "hackers" from their current field though?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			I don't see that _if_ it sticks to 48 players.
But I'm not great at future gazing.
		
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Let’s face it, they’ve said they’re not interested in talking to the other tours right now, and Bryson said a few weeks back that LIV would adapt to get to their end target (paraphrasing) - remember, he’s a stakeholder now in LIV, not just a player. These guys will make sure it succeeds - and if that involves changing the format - I think they will.
I’ve no idea what financial promises have been made, but the PIF is heavily invested now and I don’t see them pulling the plug anytime soon - so we’re looking at a professional golf revolution, where the landscape will change quite radically.

The PGAT has already split its tournaments into two levels, they’ve had to in reality, so in a few years I think we’ll see two tours with a dozen or so premium events. One US based and the other global, with players from both going head to head in the majors. 

Sounds alright to me tbh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Let’s face it, they’ve said they’re not interested in talking to the other tours right now, and Bryson said a few weeks back that LIV would adapt to get to their end target (paraphrasing) - remember, he’s a stakeholder now in LIV, not just a player. These guys will make sure it succeeds - and if that involves changing the format - I think they will.
I’ve no idea what financial promises have been made, but the PIF is heavily invested now and I don’t see them pulling the plug anytime soon - so we’re looking at a professional golf revolution, where the landscape will change quite radically.

The PGAT has already split its tournaments into two levels, they’ve had to in reality, so in a few years I think we’ll see two tours with a dozen or so premium events. One US based and the other global, with players from both going head to head in the majors.

Sounds alright to me tbh.
		
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What’s the global based tour ? Is that ET which is the tour that plays more outside it’s main base than the other tours ?


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## IainP (Oct 14, 2022)

Slightly off topic but related, if somehow I was given charge of professional golf. I'd go for a tour in each country, with progression to a continental tour, with progression to a world tour. I.e.
UK,  to European,  to World 
Japan,  to Asian,  to World 

Acknowledge that doesn't help 'following the sun' though.

For clarity, from the outset I didn't think LIV was this answer, but it's what's here.

I did find it quite amusing when the ET/DPWT were grumbling when the Asian tour held a comp in Europe  - seemed a tad hypercritical when as mentioned many of their events were outside Europe.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Slightly off topic but related, if somehow I was given charge of professional golf. I'd go for a tour in each country, with progression to a continental tour, with progression to a world tour. I.e.
UK,  to European,  to World 
Japan,  to Asian,  to World 

Acknowledge that doesn't help 'following the sun' though.

For clarity, from the outset I didn't think LIV was this answer, but it's what's here.

I did find it quite amusing when the ET/DPWT were grumbling when the Asian tour held a comp in Europe  - seemed a tad hypercritical when as mentioned many of their events were outside Europe.
		
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I agree, although was that not roughly similar to how things worked before, by accident? Up and coming golfers would play nationally, then they may get on to their continental tour, then finally PGA. The difference being the World Tour you speak of was pretty much exclusive to the US. 

I think what you say is similar to what I was thinking. That the PGA Tour went more global, and all the various continental tours were full of aspiring golfers to get on PGA. The barrier being, would tours like the DP World Tour, Asian Tour, etc accept the PGA running events in their own back yard? And would the PGA Global Tour want to do this, or would they think it more lucrative to still have most of their events in US. For example, quite romantic to think of an event in the middle of Africa, but would it bring in tge money and be well supported?


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## Depreston (Oct 14, 2022)

daily star YouTube channel got 16k to watch a lettuce that’s the same as what LiV golf had when I checked this morning


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## theoneandonly (Oct 14, 2022)

Depreston said:



			daily star YouTube channel got 16k to watch a lettuce that’s the same as what LiV golf had when I checked this morning 

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There are more watching Liz Vs lettuce than LIV golf 🤣🤣


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Context?
Website
TV
Youtube
?
		
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Don't think many know that some countries show Liv golf on other platforms with their own studio and local pundits. 

So you tube viewers is not a reflection on total viewers. 
People also watch on Liv.com and Facebook. 

For Example
Liv is free to air in China via Weibo. 
In Australia, New Zealand and India it is aired on Dazn.


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## Depreston (Oct 15, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't think many know that some countries show Liv golf on other platforms with their own studio and local pundits.

So you tube viewers is not a reflection on total viewers.
People also watch on Liv.com and Facebook.

For Example
Liv is free to air in China via Weibo.
In Australia, New Zealand and India it is aired on Dazn.
		
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I’m sure it’s just YouTube that’s losing viewers and not the other broadcasts then


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 15, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I’m sure it’s just YouTube that’s losing viewers and not the other broadcasts then
		
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THE US and UK watch via You Tube, given the time zones for this and last weeks events, then it’s understandable that the figures are down. 

If it’s 20k at Doral, then you’ll have a point. 👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			THE US and UK watch via You Tube, given the time zones for this and last weeks events, then it’s understandable that the figures are down.

If it’s 20k at Doral, then you’ll have a point. 👍
		
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Is it right that more people were watching a lettuce than watching LIV ? It’s on prime time Saturday around 10:30 in the uk and yet was around 14k watching it and that’s we next to no one at the course watching as well . The viewing figures have dropped every event haven’t they ? Maybe the novelty of it all has worn off now and just seeing the same players every time is getting a bit boring ? 

At least they have a sponser now though - well the PIF are sponsering them


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it right that more people were watching a lettuce than watching LIV ? It’s on prime time Saturday around 10:30 in the uk and yet was around 14k watching it and that’s we next to no one at the course watching as well . The viewing figures have dropped every event haven’t they ? Maybe the novelty of it all has worn off now and just seeing the same players every time is getting a bit boring ?

At least they have a sponser now though - well the PIF are sponsering them
		
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There was always going to be less interest in this event Phil, my mate was at Valderama on Thursday, nobody there. If you want to get aroused by a poor crowd and viewing figures for Jeddah, crack on, it's not exactly a great yardstick to measure the interest in LIV by though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There was always going to be less interest in this event Phil, my mate was at Valderama on Thursday, nobody there. If you want to get aroused by a poor crowd and viewing figures for Jeddah, crack on, it's not exactly a great yardstick to measure the interest in LIV by though.
		
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What can you use as a yardstick to measure then if you can’t use viewing figures 🤷‍♂️

You have constantly gone on about growing the game and the global game so is it not an issue then when the only time there seems to be people watching is when it’s in the US ? 

And surely at Jeddah you would hope to see a good crowd when it’s the country that’s financing the whole thing ? 

So what is the yardstick you want to use to measure the interest if it’s not the crowds at the events or the viewing figures watching it 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What can you use as a yardstick to measure then if you can’t use viewing figures 🤷‍♂️

You have constantly gone on about growing the game and the global game so is it not an issue then when the only time there seems to be people watching is when it’s in the US ?

And surely at Jeddah you would hope to see a good crowd when it’s the country that’s financing the whole thing ?

*So what is the yardstick you want to use to measure the interest* if it’s not the crowds at the events or the viewing figures watching it 🤷‍♂️
		
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This thread on this forum for a starters, it's been the most talked about of all the tours, since Centurion. 

Do the other tours not have dips in viewing figures and attendances at some events, or is it just LIV that must be doomed when one event is less well supported?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There was always going to be less interest in this event Phil, my mate was at Valderama on Thursday, nobody there. If you want to get aroused by a poor crowd and viewing figures for Jeddah, crack on, it's not exactly a great yardstick to measure the interest in LIV by though.
		
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I guess the answer might be to play all of the events in the US then? In fact, if they just completely copies the PGA Tour, then maybe they'd really spark up some interest?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This thread on this forum for a starters, it's been the most talked about of all the tours, since Centurion. 

Do the other tours not have dips in viewing figures and attendances at some events, or is it just LIV that must be doomed when one event is less well supported?
		
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This thread? Have 5 or 6 posters not posted 95% of the comments though? I'm sure you've managed nearly 30% all on your own?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			This thread? Have 5 or 6 posters not posted 95% of the comments though? I'm sure you've managed nearly 30% all on your own?
		
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Not sure I'm even the most vocal poster on this thread Swango, but happy to be proved incorrect on that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This thread on this forum for a starters, it's been the most talked about of all the tours, since Centurion.

Do the other tours not have dips in viewing figures and attendances at some events, or is it just LIV that must be doomed when one event is less well supported?
		
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The thread should highlight to you exactly the interest in the tour. 

Being talked about doesn’t mean a good thing for the Tour when a lot of the talk is negative about it all - people don’t really talk about tours - they talk about majors , players and Ryder cup. The LIV 

yes the other tours do have dips on viewing figures normally when they are the lesser events - and it’s not just one event for LIV now , it’s two in a row and both outside US


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## wjemather (Oct 15, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Don't think many know that some countries show Liv golf on other platforms with their own studio and local pundits.

So you tube viewers is not a reflection on total viewers.
People also watch on Liv.com and Facebook.

For Example
Liv is free to air in China via Weibo.
In Australia, New Zealand and India it is aired on Dazn.
		
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I think all but the most casual commenter does know (even if they don't know the details); it just suits their point of view to ignore it.
And when many of the most visible golf "journalists" (especially those working for PGA Tour partners like Sky, Golf Channel, CBS, etc.) pretend there is only YouTube, it's hardly surprising their sheep follow.


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## IainP (Oct 15, 2022)

Thread continues to be comedy gold!

Personally I don't care one jot if 10 people are watching. And happy to enter a debate _if_ someone can share a link to validated global viewing figures across all platforms.

If I look at the tube only stats, it suggests:
203K have watched liv jeddah round 1
87K have watched zozo round 1 highlights
62K have watched the 149th open championship round 1

What does that prove? 
Absolutely nothing!


Except maybe that_ I _don't have an agenda 😉


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This thread on this forum for a starters, it's been the most talked about of all the tours, since Centurion.
		
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How many of the posts have actually been about the golf though compared to all the other non-golfing stuff? For example, during the last LIV event there was one post about the actual golf, which I believe was from yourself, about Chacarra (?) having a good round and being well placed for the final round. Apart from that there was nothing about the actual golf itself. But plenty of discussion around OWGR points and other non playing related issues. It would be interesting to see the split between posts about the actual golf and posts that are about the sideshow around it all on this thread. I'd guess it's in the region of 98% to 2% in favour of non golf posts. I know the old saying, but not all publicity is actually good publicity.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 15, 2022)

Just purely as a golf event I think you have to question holding a Golf Tour event in Jeddah at this time of year. 

My weather app says 35°C feels like 42°C

Players are wet through with sweat and not great conditions to encourage spectators.


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## JamesR (Oct 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This thread on this forum for a starters, it's been the most talked about of all the tours, since Centurion.

Do the other tours not have dips in viewing figures and attendances at some events, or is it just LIV that must be doomed when one event is less well supported?
		
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This thread is nothing, insignificant and prepubescent.
Swing it like hogan’s thread about HNSP was a monster compared to this infant of a thread.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			How many of the posts have actually been about the golf though compared to all the other non-golfing stuff? For example, during the last LIV event there was one post about the actual golf, which I believe was from yourself, about Chacarra (?) having a good round and being well placed for the final round. Apart from that there was nothing about the actual golf itself. But plenty of discussion around OWGR points and other non playing related issues. It would be interesting to see the split between posts about the actual golf and posts that are about the sideshow around it all on this thread. I'd guess it's in the region of 98% to 2% in favour of non golf posts. I know the old saying, but not all publicity is actually good publicity.
		
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I watched a lot of it.
However I won’t post on it just to have it ripped apart by people who lead very sad lives.


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## BTatHome (Oct 15, 2022)

Some post in support of LIV, generally just to spice things up (afterall surely most people can't really give a damn about millionaire golfers getting even richer). Others post that everything about LIV is the devil's work (I mean really coming on here just to talk about viewing figures is quite sad). Most people really don't give damn about it, it doesn't effect their life, it doesn't stop them from watching whichever tour/events they want.

Those getting upset over "the war" between tours really need to get over it and just ignore LIV if it winds then up this much.


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## Beezerk (Oct 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			This thread? Have 5 or 6 posters not posted 95% of the comments though? I'm sure you've managed nearly 30% all on your own?
		
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Is there an echo in here 👂 😂


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## evemccc (Oct 15, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Being talked about doesn’t mean a good thing for the Tour when a lot of the talk is negative about it all* -
		
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Do the millions that the PGA Tour are throwing to the most ‘talked about’ players via the PIP fund also distinguish as to whether the talk is negative or positive? 

Just curious


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## Depreston (Oct 16, 2022)

People take this place way too seriously


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 16, 2022)

Definite big improvement in Brooks Koepka since he started working with Claude Harmon again.
Watch out the majors next year if he rediscovers his game and confidence.


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## garyinderry (Oct 16, 2022)

Watching for about half an hour there and noticed something strange.

Either the commentary team dont know, they don't have shotlink, or have been told not to mention yardages. Pretty much every shot is described as 

Heres such and such playing his 2nd to whatever hole..   oh good/bad shot.   

Heres such and such for par/ birdie / bogie.   Yeah made it / no slipped by. 

No mention of any length of putt. Not even a guess. No mention of length of pitch shot. 

The first time I heard someone mention a yardage was the on course commentator saying how long a par 3 is.

I find this really odd.  Inundated with news of scores, team scores etc but no mention of yardages of the actual shot being played on screen.  Weird.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 16, 2022)

Enjoyed watching the DP World Tour, Valdarama is such a tough but special course. 
DPWT didn't give much coverage to Otaegui in first 3 rounds but common sense prevailed today with him leading by 6 shots and showing him fully in the coverage. 

Whether you think he should be there or not after playing 2 LIV events you can't as the broadcaster ignore the leader who is a Spanish player winning the biggest event in Spain on the most prestigious Spanish course. 

Side note - That Min Woo Lee is a player who seems to be just getting better all the time.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 16, 2022)

Next up Miami for Liv. 
Think finally the team format will mean something. 
Who doesn't love a bit of team singles and pairs matchplay, no halved matches allowed. 

Interesting dynamic that some seeded teams can choose their opponents. 
So Brooks as top seed in 1/4 finals gets 1st pick. 
If you were picked as an easy touch surely that would fire you up..


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## Backsticks (Oct 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Next up Miami for Liv.
Think finally the team format will mean something.
Who doesn't love a bit of team singles and pairs matchplay, no halved matches allowed.

Interesting dynamic that some seeded teams can choose their opponents.
So Brooks as top seed in 1/4 finals gets 1st pick.
If you were picked as an easy touch surely that would fire you up..
		
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It sounds so convoluted, as to be meaningless as serious sport. It might provide some drama, in the manner of a TV gameshow. But not top flight sport. Surprised they are hobbling their credibility this way.   
Thats numberwang ! Smashems take that win from the Gougers in the finale that nobody understands !


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Next up Miami for Liv.
Think finally the team format will mean something.
Who doesn't love a bit of team singles and pairs matchplay, no halved matches allowed.

Interesting dynamic that some seeded teams can choose their opponents.
So Brooks as top seed in 1/4 finals gets 1st pick.
If you were picked as an easy touch surely that would fire you up..
		
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Looking forward to the final event. Got a couple of teams I'd like to see win, but theres going to be an aspect to a golf event that we haven't really seen before, a multiple team event in which there are some seriously strong teams.

We've all got to be shouting for the Majesticks haven't we, and I'd also like to see the Fireballs competing.


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## Backsticks (Oct 16, 2022)

Are the Majesticks by Royal Appointment of his majesty King Salman ?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It sounds so convoluted, as to be meaningless as serious sport. It might provide some drama, in the manner of a TV gameshow. But not top flight sport. Surprised they are hobbling their credibility this way.   
Thats numberwang ! Smashems take that win from the Gougers in the finale that nobody understands !
		
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The team names are not great 🙈

Seeing as they are grouping country's/continents together I would call them something like

South African Team - Springboks
Australian Team - Wallabies
English Team - 4 Lions
You get the jist 

Might help get some patriotic following going...


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

Interesting alternative to the OWGR rankings including LIV players. 

I guess there’s an argument to suggest these positions are now more accurate than the ‘Official’ ones?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581944860986466304


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## AussieKB (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Interesting alternative to the OWGR rankings including LIV players.

I guess there’s an argument to suggest these positions are now more accurate than the ‘Official’ ones?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581944860986466304

Click to expand...

OWGR is now defunct.....does not represent true rankings.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			OWGR is now defunct.....does not represent true rankings.
		
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I agree fwiw. 

Players getting points in limited field no cut events - while better players don’t under the same circumstances - on a technicality, makes a mockery of the rankings.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I agree fwiw.

Players getting points in limited field no cut events - while better players don’t under the same circumstances - on a technicality, makes a mockery of the rankings.
		
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Remember Mel, you confirmed you agreed that LIV players shouldn't get rankings at present, but they may deserve to do so in the future if they change the format.

Or, was this yet again very poor communication from yourself?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Remember Mel, you confirmed you agreed that LIV players shouldn't get rankings at present, but they may deserve to do so in the future if they change the format.

Or, was this yet again very poor communication from yourself?
		
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Let me be clear, if the LIV players have to meet the criteria for points, so should everybody else. 

Do you understand that?


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## Backsticks (Oct 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			OWGR is now defunct.....does not represent true rankings.
		
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Not quite yet, but they are on borrowed time, and the situation needs to be resolved in the next few months, or they will be obsolete come spring.

The Saudis are missing a trick though. The should be running a world golf ranking of their own, allocating a sensible points to their tournaments, and otherwise paralleling the owgr. Being careful not to big up their own tournaments. It would become the real golf ranking for the world, with the owgr left discredited.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not quite yet, but they are on borrowed time, and the situation needs to be resolved in the next few months, or they will be obsolete come spring.

The Saudis are missing a trick though. The should be running a world golf ranking of their own, allocating a sensible points to their tournaments, and otherwise paralleling the owgr. Being careful not to big up their own tournaments. It would become the real golf ranking for the world, with the owgr left discredited.
		
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How do you think that works, when the stakeholders of the OWGR are the tours sans LIV and the Majors, OWGR will continue as long as the tours and majors want it to


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			How do you think that works, when the stakeholders of the OWGR are the tours sans LIV and the Majors, OWGR will continue as long as the tours and majors want it to
		
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But OWGR cannot be seen to be using their position in golf to prevent LIV from developing. And why wouldn’t the majors want some of those LIV players participating in their events?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2022)

With all the squabbling around the vast riches being thrown around in the PGA tour and LIV doesn’t it just feel great that the EuroPro Tour is defunct after this year…


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## r0wly86 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But OWGR cannot be seen to be using their position in golf to prevent LIV from developing. And why wouldn’t the majors want some of those LIV players participating in their events?
		
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seen by who, there is no global governing body, the OWGR in so much as it represents the major tours and majors is as close to a governing body as golf has, as it represents 99% of professional tour golf.

I honestly don't know how the voting works, whether admission of LIV requires a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote. 

Even if some of the majors did want to admit some of the LIV players, do you think they are going to go against and piss off all the other tours. I very much doubt it


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## Bdill93 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*But OWGR cannot be seen to be using their position in golf to prevent LIV from developing*. And why wouldn’t the majors want some of those LIV players participating in their events?
		
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I'm often on your side Mel but - Why not?

Maybe OWGR thinks its absolutely its position to defend and maintain the systems in place in golf as they are? Where the average Joe - Like me - with a load of talent - can reach the biggest tour/ events in golf through playing ability alone.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			seen by who, there is no global governing body, the OWGR in so much as it represents the major tours and majors is as close to a governing body as golf has, as it represents 99% of professional tour golf.

I honestly don't know how the voting works, whether admission of LIV requires a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote.

Even if some of the majors did want to admit some of the LIV players, do you think they are going to go against and piss off all the other tours. I very much doubt it
		
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Seen from a legal and anti-trust perspective.

OWGR is a business, if they accept LIV, they will receive revenue from them which I believe is £55,000 per year. As a business, it’s in their fiscal interests to add another ‘customer’, so if they are seen to be objectionable to that, then quite rightly, questions will be asked as to why, especially if LIV can prove they meet the recognised requirements to ‘do business’ with them.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But OWGR cannot be seen to be using their position in golf to prevent LIV from developing. And why wouldn’t the majors want some of those LIV players participating in their events?
		
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And we’ve been through this before. LiV set up a new tour (which is absolutely fine) which is run in such a way that it’s players can’t gain OWGR points as the tour doesn’t comply with the rules set out by the OWGR. 

LiV knew it. The players all knew it. So they are in absolutely no position to complain about it. 

Comply with the rules. Get ranking points. Simples!


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## r0wly86 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Seen from a legal and anti-trust perspective.

OWGR is a business, if they accept LIV, they will receive revenue from them which I believe is £55,000 per year. As a business, it’s in their fiscal interests to add another ‘customer’, so if they are seen to be objectionable to that, then quite rightly, questions will be asked as to why, especially if LIV can prove they meet the recognised requirements to ‘do business’ with them.
		
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there is no legal argument, and no anti-trust. You cannot claim anti-trust if the company's stakeholders are all different tours and major tournaments. That's not what anti-trust is/

The fees are there for running costs, yes LIV would pay but it would cost OWGR more in then administrating the points. Plus in the world of professional golf £55k is pocket change


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## Swango1980 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Let me be clear, if the LIV players have to meet the criteria for points, so should everybody else.

Do you understand that?
		
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And, they do. But, as you know, this has been discussed to death. You simply choose to filter out anything that doesn't suit your argument.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*And, they do*. But, as you know, this has been discussed to death. You simply choose to filter out anything that doesn't suit your argument.
		
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With discretionary exemptions, yes?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			With discretionary exemptions, yes?
		
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Go back and read the responses to your previous tiresome comments. You must have missed them the first time. Cheers.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 17, 2022)

Regarding OWGR. 

I think LIV would be better trying to engage directly with the Majors and say something along the lines of. 

Right we have some of the best Golfers and most well known names in golf that were sure you would like in your events.
So our top 15 players (probably less for Masters) that are not already exempt in our order of merit qualify automatically for your major the next year. 

This would allow Liv to maintain their current model.
There is a pathway from Liv to the majors. 
It would eliminate the idea by some that it's a non competitive exhibition tour.

Im not saying the above is written in stone but you get the jist of the idea.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Regarding OWGR.

I think LIV would be better trying to engage directly with the Majors and say something along the lines of.

Right we have some of the best Golfers and most well known names in golf that were sure you would like in your events.
So our top 15 players (probably less for Masters) that are not already exempt in our order of merit qualify automatically for your major the next year.

This would allow Liv to maintain their current model.
There is a pathway from Liv to the majors.
It would eliminate the idea by some that it's a non competitive exhibition tour.

Im not saying the above is written in stone but you get the jist of the idea.
		
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Would you expand the qualified field for these LIV players or cut some qualified players from the event?


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## Imurg (Oct 17, 2022)

Think of the OWGR as a club, a club that you want to join.
In order to join you have to....
Drive a Mercedes 
Earn 100k a year
Have a trophy wife
Be 5 index or less
Not be a knob..

If you don't fulfil any 1 of those criteria you can't join.
Simples.

LIV do not meet the requirements to gain OWGR points at the moment..it really is a simple as that
Until they do meet the criteria they won't get any.
Should they fulfil the requirements then..guess what?....they'll get points.

The OWGR has the discretion to award points to certain individual events that may have a limited field and no cut. INDIVIDUAL..
It doesn't have the discretion to award points to whole Tours that have limited fields and no cut.
This is not difficult to understand........
There is a process by which a new Tour can show that they meet the criteria in order to gain points.
LIV know this process and seem to think it doesn't apply to them......


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## Bdill93 (Oct 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Think of the OWGR as a club, a club that you want to join.
In order to join you have to....
Drive a Mercedes
Earn 100k a year
Have a trophy wife
Be 5 index or less
Not be a knob..

If you don't fulfil any 1 of those criteria you can't join.
Simples.

LIV do not meet the requirements to gain OWGR points at the moment..it really is a simple as that
Until they do meet the criteria they won't get any.
Should they fulfil the requirements then..guess what?....they'll get points.

The OWGR has the discretion to award points to certain individual events that may have a limited field and no cut. INDIVIDUAL..
It doesn't have the discretion to award points to whole Tours that have limited fields and no cut.
This is not difficult to understand........
There is a process by which a new Tour can show that they meet the criteria in order to gain points.
LIV know this process and seem to think it doesn't apply to them......
		
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Well I've got a merc and the wifes pretty....


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## Imurg (Oct 17, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Well I've got a merc and the wifes pretty.... 

Click to expand...

Shame about the rest


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## Bdill93 (Oct 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Shame about the rest 

Click to expand...

Well exactly! I thought I just found my golden ticket to LIV


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## IainP (Oct 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Regarding OWGR.

I think LIV would be better trying to engage directly with the Majors and say something along the lines of.

Right we have some of the best Golfers and most well known names in golf that were sure you would like in your events.
So our top 15 players (probably less for Masters) that are not already exempt in our order of merit qualify automatically for your major the next year.

This would allow Liv to maintain their current model.
There is a pathway from Liv to the majors.
It would eliminate the idea by some that it's a non competitive exhibition tour.

Im not saying the above is written in stone but you get the jist of the idea.
		
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Yep, and you probably already know how they set their internal ranking rules - extract below.

Thing is, no-one really knows how independent the majors really are these days  - can imagine they are being put under some pressure.
Also as many have mentioned,  GN doesn’t seem the type to go the  'make friends and influence ' route.

‐‐--------
Here is the individual points system for each regular-season event. First place is worth 40 points, and only the top 24 players – half of the 48-man field – will receive points. Those who finish 25th or below will not be eligible for points in that tournament.


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## IainP (Oct 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Think of the OWGR as a club, a club that you want to join.
In order to join you have to....
Drive a Mercedes
Earn 100k a year
Have a trophy wife
Be 5 index or less
Not be a knob..

If you don't fulfil any 1 of those criteria you can't join.
Simples.

LIV do not meet the requirements to gain OWGR points at the moment..it really is a simple as that
Until they do meet the criteria they won't get any.
Should they fulfil the requirements then..guess what?....they'll get points.

The OWGR has the discretion to award points to certain individual events that may have a limited field and no cut. INDIVIDUAL..
It doesn't have the discretion to award points to whole Tours that have limited fields and no cut.
This is not difficult to understand........
There is a process by which a new Tour can show that they meet the criteria in order to gain points.
LIV know this process and seem to think it doesn't apply to them......
		
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To be clear,  I am in the 'you knew the rules beforehand ' camp. 
But to play with the analogy a little for smiles...🙂

It's 2022, and the new applicant has:
A BMW and a Tesla
A trophy boyfriend 
Earns over 100k a year
Is a 3 index
Isn't a knob

Can they join, or doesn't their face fit with the existing members?
😉😉😁


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## Imurg (Oct 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			To be clear,  I am in the 'you knew the rules beforehand ' camp.
But to play with the analogy a little for smiles...🙂

It's 2022, and the new applicant has:
A BMW and a Tesla
A trophy boyfriend
Earns over 100k a year
Is a 3 index
Isn't a knob

Can they join, or doesn't their face fit with the existing members?
😉😉😁
		
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Depends how Old School the club is


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## IainP (Oct 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Depends how Old School the club is

Click to expand...

Ha yes! 😄
I've alluded to this before, there may come a point where the "it is correct", will perhaps be overshadowed by the perception and PR.
Golf rarely needs help in coming across as old fashioned, inflexible, self protecting.
I'd say the 'rules is rules' feeling is still in majority, but it might not take much for that to edge towards 'just change the flippin' rules'
Wonder if they'll be a respite (in media) after October!


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## Imurg (Oct 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			Ha yes! 😄
I've alluded to this before, there may come a point where the "it is correct", will perhaps be overshadowed by the perception and PR.
Golf rarely needs help in coming across as old fashioned, inflexible, self protecting.
I'd say the 'rules is rules' feeling is still in majority, but it might not take much for that to edge towards 'just change the flippin' rules'
Wonder if they'll be a respite (in media) after October!
		
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I saw Brooks bemoaning the upcoming break in LIV events..just as he gets his game back......


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## IainP (Oct 17, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I saw Brooks bemoaning the upcoming break in LIV events..just as he gets his game back......

Click to expand...

I had read some suggestion that he was being mischievously sarcastic  - perhaps picked up a few things from his time in Europe & he does have form for messing with the media. Guess only he'll know.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 17, 2022)

IainP said:



			I had read some suggestion that he was being mischievously sarcastic  - perhaps picked up a few things from his time in Europe & he does have form for messing with the media. Guess only he'll know.
		
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I don't think he was being sarcastic - watching the interview he just looks like he's relieved he seems to be getting over his injury issues and it's frustrating the break from LIV is coming. I doubt it's the big deal some of the media are trying to portray it as, but nothing new there.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Oct 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Definite big improvement in Brooks Koepka since he started working with Claude Harmon again.
Watch out the majors next year if he rediscovers his game and confidence.
		
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I was under the impression he had retired. His world ranking has plummeted.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't think he was being sarcastic - watching the interview he just looks like he's relieved he seems to be getting over his injury issues and it's frustrating the break from LIV is coming. I doubt it's the big deal some of the media are trying to portray it as, but nothing new there.
		
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Has he got any options to play in any other events to try to keep his good form going? 

That's a genuine question rather than a dig at LIV as I have no idea what other options he might have on other tours.


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## IainP (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has he got any options to play in any other events to try to keep his good form going?

That's a genuine question rather than a dig at LIV as I have no idea what other options he might have on other tours.
		
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There's a couple of Asian tour international series events in November.
His brother & a few others look to be already entered. Whether the bigger names show remains to be seen.


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## AussieKB (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has he got any options to play in any other events to try to keep his good form going?

That's a genuine question rather than a dig at LIV as I have no idea what other options he might have on other tours.
		
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There are a few tournaments coming up in OZ, and we would love to have him and others, maybe Rory will make an appearance if we can find enough money for his fee.


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## Harry Putter (Oct 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			There are a few tournaments coming up in OZ, and we would love to have him and others, maybe Rory will make an appearance if we can find enough money for his fee.
		
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I think you'll find he's got enough already... that was his attitude when LIV wanted to give him vast sums of appearance money.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has he got any options to play in any other events to try to keep his good form going?

That's a genuine question rather than a dig at LIV as I have no idea what other options he might have on other tours.
		
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I'd imagine he has, if he wants to - obviously not on the PGA Tour though, so it would probably be on the Asian Tour. From his interview, he implies that he has nursed the hip injury through this year, and now needs to build up some fitness - so maybe that's his priority once the LIV season has ended.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

This is quite an interesting website, lots of information on there in relation to rankings, form, areas of strength for individual players etc.

Aside from keeping the LIV players rankings more accurate than the OWGR does now, it provides some pretty detailed info if you like to study where players are strong ad weak - and mabe even have the odd little bet. I might put a fiver on Rory this weekend and see how accurate they really are...

https://datagolf.com/datagolf-rankings


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 18, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I was under the impression he had retired. His world ranking has plummeted.
		
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Definitely dropping like all Liv Players for obvious reasons but currently 35th in the world.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 18, 2022)

Maybe reading too much into this but Greg Norman either couldn't be at Jeddah or asked not to be at Jeddah?

Or was at Jeddah and took a back seat?

Usually he is front and centre but no where to be seen at the Jeddah event?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Maybe reading too much into this but Greg Norman either couldn't be at Jeddah or asked not to be at Jeddah?

Or was at Jeddah and took a back seat?

Usually he is front and centre but no where to be seen at the Jeddah event?
		
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His dad died last week.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Oct 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Maybe reading too much into this but Greg Norman either couldn't be at Jeddah or asked not to be at Jeddah?

Or was at Jeddah and took a back seat?

Usually he is front and centre but no where to be seen at the Jeddah event?
		
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Looks like it was very recently his father’s funeral


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## Swango1980 (Oct 18, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Maybe reading too much into this but Greg Norman either couldn't be at Jeddah or asked not to be at Jeddah?

Or was at Jeddah and took a back seat?

Usually he is front and centre but no where to be seen at the Jeddah event?
		
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I think you read a lot into many things


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2022)

Some interesting comments in this article.....

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/i-...tHKx5VIcGHW9cwvtKPMt_gdkkmy6XSilNO9TH4woBprgs

"I will create my own majors for my players" - I'm not sure that's how it works, you can't just create a major.

"all the tours are being run by guys who don't understand business" - isn't part of running a business making sure that it is profitable?  At what point, if ever, are LIV going to turn a profit with the ridiculous amounts of money they've paid out?


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## IainP (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Some interesting comments in this article.....

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/i-...tHKx5VIcGHW9cwvtKPMt_gdkkmy6XSilNO9TH4woBprgs

"I will create my own majors for my players" - I'm not sure that's how it works, you can't just create a major.

"all the tours are being run by guys who don't understand business" - isn't part of running a business making sure that it is profitable?  At what point, if ever, are LIV going to turn a profit with the ridiculous amounts of money they've paid out?
		
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Agree re the majors piece - is a silly sound bite to offer up - was though in the context of "should LIV Golf players be denied entry".

Depending on point of view -
It is possible "to create a major", or
It's hard to do.
https://golf.com/news/players-championship-golfs-fifth-major/


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## IainP (Oct 18, 2022)

News keeps on coming - more $ to the PGAT...

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/pga-tour-set-to-elevate-more-events/


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			News keeps on coming - more $ to the PGAT...

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/pga-tour-set-to-elevate-more-events/

Click to expand...

It's good for the golf fan, more top players playing more competitions. I exepct Jon Rahm will be delighted, wasn't he a little bit disgruntled at the schedule already?


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## IainP (Oct 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's good for the golf fan, more top players playing more competitions. I exepct Jon Rahm will be delighted, wasn't he a little bit disgruntled at the schedule already?
		
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He commented on the further ahead proposals which were 16+4. For 2023 it's 13+4 so not there yet.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			News keeps on coming - more $ to the PGAT...

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/pga-tour-set-to-elevate-more-events/

Click to expand...

No reasonably intelligent individual thought that the pgatour would go quietly into the night. I hope not.
More money to come. IMO


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's good for the golf fan, more top players playing more competitions. I exepct Jon Rahm will be delighted, wasn't he a little bit disgruntled at the schedule already?
		
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Imagine having to play one week in three and getting obscene amounts of money for doing so. My heart bleeds for them. Imagine if they had "proper" jobs. The amount of whining they'd do if they had to do 50+ hours a week in a supermarket just to be able to put food on the table.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Imagine having to play one week in three and getting obscene amounts of money for doing so. My heart bleeds for them. Imagine if they had "proper" jobs. The amount of whining they'd do if they had to do 50+ hours a week in a supermarket just to be able to put food on the table.
		
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We'd all be pro golfers earning millions if we could wouldn't we, but for every one that does, there are 100's that are playing every chance they get to keep their cards, and make a reasonable living. I don't begrudge anybody enjoying the fruits of their labour - and the reason these guys aren't doing 50 hrs in a Supermarket is because they have worked incredibly hard to get where they are.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 18, 2022)

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sa...ay-host-own-majors-denies-tiger-woods-reports

Hopefully won't come to this.
Very important that in this fractured golf world we now live in that the best play the best in the four majors


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## BiMGuy (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Imagine having to play one week in three and getting obscene amounts of money for doing so. My heart bleeds for them. Imagine if they had "proper" jobs. The amount of whining they'd do if they had to do 50+ hours a week in a supermarket just to be able to put food on the table.
		
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You do know there is more to it than turning up and playing four rounds every few weeks don’t you?


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## IainP (Oct 18, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			No reasonably intelligent individual thought that the pgatour would go quietly into the night. I hope not.
More money to come. IMO
		
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Personally, didn't expect them to go anywhere  - too big. Does feel like they have brought forward some of the cash injections though from earlier proposals. Perhaps a bit of a gamble to keep a halt on transfers, which makes some sense. Then again the whole liv thing is also a gamble. Soap opera continues...


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			We'd all be pro golfers earning millions if we could wouldn't we, but for every one that does, there are 100's that are playing every chance they get to keep their cards, and make a reasonable living. I don't begrudge anybody enjoying the fruits of their labour - and the reason these guys aren't doing 50 hrs in a Supermarket is because they have worked incredibly hard to get where they are.
		
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Yes, absolutely. But I'd also like to think that if I was fortunate enough to be in that position where I've achieved my dreams to be a pro golfer I'd have enough self-awareness to realise what a fortunate position I was in. Totally agree with enjoying the fruits of their labour but with the amount of moaning they do are they really enjoying it? Anyone that has reached the levels of Rahm could, or at least should, be able to jack it all in tomorrow and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If your life is so tough then give it up, bugger off and enjoy the millions you've got in the bank. You'll be getting no sympathy from me.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes, absolutely. But I'd also like to think that if I was fortunate enough to be in that position where I've achieved my dreams to be a pro golfer I'd have enough self-awareness to realise what a fortunate position I was in. Totally agree with enjoying the fruits of their labour but with the amount of moaning they do are they really enjoying it? Anyone that has reached the levels of Rahm could, or at least should, be able to jack it all in tomorrow and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If your life is so tough then give it up, bugger off and enjoy the millions you've got in the bank. You'll be getting no sympathy from me.
		
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I think in Rahms case, it was more concern over the time constraints of the changes to the PGA Tour - enforced, which push his schedule to allow him to compete in Europe as well. He's not giving up golf anytime soon, but he is a young man, with a young family and will spend a lot of time travelling and playing - limiting the time he spends with his wife and kids. Despite the money, it will still be hard leaving them behind - his winning interview in Madrid demonstrated how much his family eman to him.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 18, 2022)

IainP said:



			Personally, didn't expect them to go anywhere  - too big. Does feel like they have brought forward some of the cash injections though from earlier proposals. Perhaps a bit of a gamble to keep a halt on transfers, which makes some sense. Then again the whole liv thing is also a gamble. Soap opera continues...
		
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Agreed. But to me LIV and the pgatour is two different things with different formats. Sure, some will continue to defect and like you said, Soap opera continues...


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 19, 2022)

👏👏👏👏👏👏


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

The simple fact that the CEO of the LIV Tour is stating publically that they will just create their own majors just tells you exactly how little they know how about the sport and how their arrogance allows them to believe they can just buy everything from a bottomless pit of money

At the moment there doesn’t appear to be any talk of LIV players being banned from any major but if they keep poking and slagging off a lot of the governing bodies then it wouldn’t surprise me to see if they did put something in place to stop them playing in them 

The daily complaints about the ranking points , the constantly slating of the PGAT and DP plus their CEOs - they are not exactly going much sympathy from many


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## AussieKB (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The simple fact that the CEO of the LIV Tour is stating publically that they will just create their own majors just tells you exactly how little they know how about the sport and how their arrogance allows them to believe they can just buy everything from a bottomless pit of money

At the moment there doesn’t appear to be any talk of LIV players being banned from any major but if they keep poking and slagging off a lot of the governing bodies then it wouldn’t surprise me to see if they did put something in place to stop them playing in them

The daily complaints about the ranking points , the constantly slating of the PGAT and DP plus their CEOs - they are not exactly going much sympathy from many
		
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About time you wake up to the fact the world is changing whether you like it not.....

In 50 -100 years time who cares who won your club champs or the PGA......
we are all going to be dead.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The simple fact that the CEO of the LIV Tour is stating publically that they will just create their own majors just tells you exactly how little they know how about the sport and how their arrogance allows them to believe they can just buy everything from a bottomless pit of money

At the moment there doesn’t appear to be any talk of LIV players being banned from any major but if they keep poking and slagging off a lot of the governing bodies then it wouldn’t surprise me to see if they did put something in place to stop them playing in them

The daily complaints about the ranking points , the constantly slating of the PGAT and DP plus their CEOs - they are not exactly going much sympathy from many
		
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To be fair, when I was a child, we made up our own Olympics when me and my cousins met at my grans on a Friday. Cricket stumps for Javelin. Long Jump and High Jump on the grass. And running around the garden. It was great, although less popular and commercially viable compared to the actual Olympics.

So, let LIV create their own Majors. I'm sure they'll have a jolly good time of it


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The simple fact that the CEO of the LIV Tour is stating publically that they will just create their own majors just tells you exactly how little they know how about the sport and how their arrogance allows them to believe they can just buy everything from a bottomless pit of money

At the moment there doesn’t appear to be any talk of LIV players being banned from any major but if they keep poking and slagging off a lot of the governing bodies then it wouldn’t surprise me to see if they did put something in place to stop them playing in them

The daily complaints about the ranking points , the constantly slating of the PGAT and DP plus their CEOs - they are not exactly going much sympathy from many
		
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He’s just trying to push a decision from the OWGR, who despite having a relatively quiet period in the calendar, can’t seem to find time for a zoom call to decide what to do. 

Of course, the Saudis could put on an event with a $100 million dollar purse, give it some qualifying criteria so anybody can try and get a place, and blow golf out of the water. It’s the nuclear option. I doubt they actually want to but they could if they wanted. 

There’s a few golfers speaking sensibly about the situation, but there needs to be more. What the top pros can’t do is call for the LIV guys to be denied access to the majors, because they would effectively be trying to influence the result in their favour by weakening the field. 
So it’s down to the members of the OWGR to make the decision and take the resulting aftermath.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He’s just trying to push a decision from the OWGR, who despite having a relatively quiet period in the calendar, can’t seem to find time for a zoom call to decide what to do.

*Of course, the Saudis could put on an event with a $100 million dollar purse, give it some qualifying criteria so anybody can try and get a place, and blow golf out of the water. *It’s the nuclear option. I doubt they actually want to but they could if they wanted.

There’s a few golfers speaking sensibly about the situation, but there needs to be more. What the top pros can’t do is call for the LIV guys to be denied access to the majors, because they would effectively be trying to influence the result in their favour by weakening the field.
So it’s down to the members of the OWGR to make the decision and take the resulting aftermath.
		
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Is that not pretty much what they have done already, minus the qualifying bit? And, plenty of invited players have so far said No. So, are you saying that many of the top players that will say No to a Sign on fee of probably more than $100 million, but will say Yes if there is a chance to win a lesser amount of money if they win the competition?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that not pretty much what they have done already, minus the qualifying bit? And, plenty of invited players have so far said No. So, are you saying that many of the top players that will say No to a Sign on fee of probably more than $100 million, but will say Yes if there is a chance to win a lesser amount of money if they win the competition?
		
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The reason players haven’t joined LIV is because of the actions threatened by the PGA and DPW tours. Are they going to ban players for participating in a Saudi funded stand alone  tournament as well - and if so, on what grounds?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			About time you wake up to the fact the world is changing whether you like it not.....

In 50 -100 years time who cares who won your club champs or the PGA......
we are all going to be dead.
		
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What a strange response - almost the same arrogance as Norman himself 



Mel Smooth said:



			He’s just trying to push a decision from the OWGR, who despite having a relatively quiet period in the calendar, can’t seem to find time for a zoom call to decide what to do.
		
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Why does he feel he has the right to push OWGR ? It’s not up to him to decide their timeframe

Maybe he should have sorted it before he started the LIV tour 




			Of course, the Saudis could put on an event with a $100 million dollar purse, give it some qualifying criteria so anybody can try and get a place, and blow golf out of the water. It’s the nuclear option. I doubt they actually want to but they could if they wanted.
		
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That doesn’t make it a major though does it - that’s just throwing more money about at the end of the day - it doesn’t make the tournament anywhere near a major level 




			There’s a few golfers speaking sensibly about the situation, but there needs to be more. What the top pros can’t do is call for the LIV guys to be denied access to the majors, because they would effectively be trying to influence the result in their favour by weakening the field.
So it’s down to the members of the OWGR to make the decision and take the resulting aftermath.
		
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Who has called for the players to be denied access to the majors ? And the owgr don’t have control over the majors

USGA 
USPGA 
R&A
Masters Committee 

They are the ones that decide who plays in the majors 

LIV appear to be daily fighting some social media war and attacking on a daily basis - the majors have said nothing but now LIV are turning on them


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*The reason players haven’t joined LIV is because of the actions threatened by the PGA and DPW tours*. Are they going to ban players for participating in a Saudi funded stand alone  tournament as well - and if so, on what grounds?
		
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Are you sure that’s the reason 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you sure that’s the reason 🤔
		
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You think if there was a pathway between the tours, that no more would have taken part in LIV events?


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## BiMGuy (Oct 19, 2022)

Let’s be honest. The only difference between a LiV major and a comp at my club is the prize money.

They are both about as relevant to the golfing world as each other.

It’s just more noise and desperate propaganda from an organisation that realises most people have no interest in LiV golf.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 19, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Let’s be honest. The only difference between a LiV major and a comp at my club is the prize money.

They are both about as relevant to the golfing world as each other.

It’s just more noise and desperate propaganda from an organisation that realises most people have no interest in LiV golf.
		
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the majors are special because of the history, the Players has probably the best field of any tournament, a world famous and recognisable course and substantial prize money and yet is not a major. Not sure how LIV with their second rate (compared to major venues) courses can create anything getting close to a major just by throwing even more money at it


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You think if there was a pathway between the tours, that no more would have taken part in LIV events?
		
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I think there are more reasons than being  banned from other tours for players not going to LIV


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think there are more reasons than being  banned from other tours for players not going to LIV
		
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I’m sure there are, OWGR points being another. So what’s the delay on the decision, it’s either yes or no. 

That’s the reason where having a discussion about the Saudis funding an alternative ‘major’.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sure there are,* OWGR points being another.* So what’s the delay on the decision, it’s either yes or no.

That’s the reason where having a discussion about the Saudis funding an alternative ‘major’.
		
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Well, at least some players did their due diligence before jumping over to LIV


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			About time you wake up to the fact the world is changing whether you like it not.....

In 50 -100 years time who cares who won your club champs or the PGA......
we are all going to be dead.
		
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in 50 - 100 years time the existing Majors will have 50 - 100 years more history than any LIV major, and those judging them then will in all probability care about that; and those wanting to reserve their place in golfing history rather than pocket the money will still aim to play in the existing Majors.

This assumes that in 50 - 100 years we haven't completely screwed the planet, which may make the whole argument redundant.


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## Imurg (Oct 19, 2022)

You can't just devise a new tournament, chuck a wheelbarrow's worth of cash at it and expect the golfing world to see it as a Major...it just doesn't work like that.
Golf decides what is and what isn't a Major.
The Player's has ticked more boxes than any other event to become e a Major and it hasn't been given that status.. 
LIV can call it whatever they want to call it...it ain't gonna be a Major.

Returning to ranking points..again...there's no decision to make at the moment....
LIV don't meet the criteria 
I don't know how many times this had to be said before it becomes understandable.......
What part of "LIV don't meet the criteria " do they not understand.?
Shouting about it and constantly complaining won't change anything. 
I wonder what would..?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sure there are, OWGR points being another. So what’s the delay on the decision, it’s either yes or no.

That’s the reason where having a discussion about the Saudis funding an alternative ‘major’.
		
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Is there a delay ? 

Or are they just doing their due diligence?

Process takes between 12 and 18 months I understand so there doesn’t appear to be any delay


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			in 50 - 100 years time the existing Majors will have 50 - 100 years more history than any LIV major, and those judging them then will in all probability care about that; and those wanting to reserve their place in golfing history rather than pocket the money will still aim to play in the existing Majors.

This assumes that in 50 - 100 years we haven't completely screwed the planet, which may make the whole argument redundant.
		
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The current 4 majors aren’t even the original 4 majors. 

Nobody can create a major off the shelf, but history proves they can be created over time.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 19, 2022)

Imurg said:



			You can't just devise a new tournament, chuck a wheelbarrow's worth of cash at it and expect the golfing world to see it as a Major...it just doesn't work like that.
*Golf decides what is and what isn't a Major.*
The Player's has ticked more boxes than any other event to become e a Major and it hasn't been given that status..
LIV can call it whatever they want to call it...it ain't gonna be a Major.

Returning to ranking points..again...there's no decision to make at the moment....
LIV don't meet the criteria
I don't know how many times this had to be said before it becomes understandable.......
What part of "LIV don't meet the criteria " do they not understand.?
Shouting about it and constantly complaining won't change anything.
I wonder what would..?

Click to expand...

I agree with all your points - but if this is the case, why did golf allow the PGA Championship?  

Id actually much rather watch a Major somewhere outside of the USA - they have the US Open already! Deffo think they should move one to be more global


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## Imurg (Oct 19, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I agree with all your points - but if this is the case, why did golf allow the PGA Championship? 

Id actually much rather watch a Major somewhere outside of the USA - they have the US Open already! Deffo think they should move one to be more global
		
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Couldn't agree more but then I don't make the rules...


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there a delay ?

Or are they just doing their due diligence?

Process takes between 12 and 18 months I understand so there doesn’t appear to be any delay
		
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Does it take 18 months, PGA China announced around Nov 2013, points awarded for 2014 season?


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## Beezerk (Oct 19, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Couldn't agree more but then I don't make the rules...

Click to expand...

You just like moaning about them 🤣😉


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The current 4 majors aren’t even the original 4 majors.

Nobody can create a major off the shelf, but history proves they can be created over time.
		
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Yes, things can be created over time, particularly in the early years when there is no real history, or settled format in the sport.

The rise of the professional sport only really occurred around the 1940's and 50's. Back in those days, apparently professionals didn't talk about Majors in the same way we do today, and they probably got their prestige mainly due to the purses involved (in comparison to other events), and perhaps events that were brought into the limelight by other well known golfers winning previously?

However, since the importance of Majors probably was cemented in the era of Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, etc. and that has continues and strengthened during the Woods era, and the explosion in broadcasting.

So, to think LIV could just create another Major is a farcical idea. Even if LIV became an established and respected tour, it would still be almost impossible for them to do this.


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## Imurg (Oct 19, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			You just like moaning about them 🤣😉
		
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Officially a Grumpy Old Man now....


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, things can be created over time, particularly in the early years when there is no real history, or settled format in the sport.

The rise of the professional sport only really occurred around the 1940's and 50's. Back in those days, apparently professionals didn't talk about Majors in the same way we do today, and they probably got their prestige mainly due to the purses involved (in comparison to other events), and perhaps events that were brought into the limelight by other well known golfers winning previously?

However, since the importance of Majors probably was cemented in the era of Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, etc. and that has continues and strengthened during the Woods era, and the explosion in broadcasting.

So, to think LIV could just create another Major is a farcical idea. Even if LIV became an established and respected tour, it would still be almost impossible for them to do this.
		
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Well, they could just call it “The Major”  and do away with all that nostalgic nonsense.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Let us say LIV did create a "Major". Do people genuinely think that it will feature all the best players in the world?

My educated guess is, a resounding No. It would be difficult to see players like McIlroy, Rahm, Spieth, Thomas, etc suddenly signing up to that. It looks like the money is not going to tempt them, or being able to wear shorts, so what else is going to tempt them? Perhaps LIV should learn how to walk first, before trying to do the impossible and fly.

Also, we know the key battle is with the PGA Tour. Would comments that LIV could set up their own Majors not doe a really good job at antagonising those responsible for the Majors!? Are LIV effectively saying this, not as a serious comment, but as a threat to the Majors, to try and force them to rewrite qualifying criteria so LIV players can play? Such a threat could potentially backfire on LIV, I often find that people don't react too well to threats.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I agree with all your points - but if this is the case, why did golf allow the PGA Championship? 

Id actually much rather watch a Major somewhere outside of the USA - they have the US Open already! Deffo think they should move one to be more global
		
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I'm not bothered where it's played, but The Players has more validity as a Major than the PGA for me. 

I believe the PGA's major status stems from the time when the tour was smaller, tour players had much closer club affiliations & club pros made up more of the field; the PGA & the PGA Tour either were or effectively were one and the same thing then.  I believe it's why there are still places reserved for club pros in the field.   An example of golf not evolving.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm not bothered where it's played, but The Players has more validity as a Major than the PGA for me.

I believe the PGA's major status stems from the time when the tour was smaller, tour players had much closer club affiliations & club pros made up more of the field; the PGA & the PGA Tour either were or effectively were one and the same thing then.  I believe it's why there are still places reserved for club pros in the field.  * An example of golf not evolving*.
		
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I'm not sure about that statement. Firstly, it is one tournament, not golf in general. Secondly, is this not still the case simply due to tradition? We all like tradition in all sorts of forms, heck, it is why we are even talking about the Majors in the first place. Perhaps one could argue that the FA Cup in football is an example of football not evolving. After all, what right do a non-league side have to be in a competition with Premier League sides?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Does it take 18 months, PGA China announced around Nov 2013, points awarded for 2014 season?
		
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So first question is - when did PGA China first apply for points 

Also I believe it’s part of the PGAT Developmental program 

It also has a qualifying process 

It’s over 72 holes as well plus a cut 

But I guess it looks like PGA Tour China did its due diligence and got the points sorted early and due to them it also looks like fulfilling all the requirements needed


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## SteveJay (Oct 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



https://www.golfchannel.com/news/sa...ay-host-own-majors-denies-tiger-woods-reports

Hopefully won't come to this.
Very important that in this fractured golf world we now live in that the best play the best in the four majors
		
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Why is it so important?
Many other global sporting events may not always feature the best.....look at football.......George Best never played in the World Cup Finals, sometimes the top nations don't qualify. Just because certain players don't play in a major won't suddenly change its status.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So first question is - when did PGA China first apply for points

Also I believe it’s part of the PGAT Developmental program

It also has a qualifying process

It’s over 72 holes as well plus a cut

But I guess it looks like PGA Tour China did its due diligence and got the points sorted early and due to them it also looks like fulfilling all the requirements needed
		
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I guess nobody knows when they applied for points, but my guess would be it wasn't 18 months beforehand, in the context of the "how long does it take" argument, the rest of your points are irrelevant.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 19, 2022)

Love to know what was said off camera..


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Love to know what was said off camera..






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"DJ, you can buy lunch"


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## Backsticks (Oct 19, 2022)

You cannot create majors. The womens majors are joke, varying from 4 to 5, and different ones 'declared' majors that come and go. They have two, and thats it. They cannot mint more.
Liv has none. And cannot mint more than that either.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 19, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			You cannot create majors.
		
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Oh yes you can... 

Thing is will they be taken seriously or not and the answer to that is not. 

Like in boxing when the IBF world belts were launched nobody took that world champion seriously buy many many many many many years later it got some credibility but is never as coveted as the WBC or WBA belts that have the history. 

Liv majors are a bad idea and hope it won't come to that. 

We want all the best players in the historic majors we already have fighting it out.


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## IainP (Oct 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm not bothered where it's played, but The Players has more validity as a Major than the PGA for me.

I believe the PGA's major status stems from the time when the tour was smaller, tour players had much closer club affiliations & club pros made up more of the field; the PGA & the PGA Tour either were or effectively were one and the same thing then.  I believe it's why there are still places reserved for club pros in the field.   An example of golf not evolving.
		
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And you won't be alone with that Players view I suspect. So in some people's eyes, maybe a major can be made 😉

I think there is a fair case for dropping the majors tag generally (know that is controversial). They are great tournaments with history, especially the opens. But why not just reference them by name and not lump them together.

But what made them 'major' back in the day. Prize money, difficulty to win?

In 2023 I expect there will be 13 PGAT tournaments with larger purses than any of the traditional majors. (Acknowledge announcements not yet made though)

Difficulty to win is harder to gauge, in recent times as mentioned The Players, and possibly some others, had arguably stronger fields than some traditional majors.

Ironically depending on the decisions the traditional majors make, this could switch back around in 2023 though.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2022)

IainP said:



			And you won't be alone with that Players view I suspect. So in some people's eyes, maybe a major can be made 😉

I think there is a fair case for dropping the majors tag generally (know that is controversial). They are great tournaments with history, especially the opens. But why not just reference them by name and not lump them together.

*But what made them 'major' back in the day. Prize money, difficulty to win?*

In 2023 I expect there will be 13 PGAT tournaments with larger purses than any of the traditional majors. (Acknowledge announcements not yet made though)

Difficulty to win is harder to gauge, in recent times as mentioned The Players, and possibly some others, had arguably stronger fields than some traditional majors.

Ironically depending on the decisions the traditional majors make, this could switch back around in 2023 though.
		
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Because Arnie said so... 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/di...-four-majors-included-two-amateur-tournaments

"Then in 1960 golf's greatest star, Arnold Palmer, went across the pond to play in his first Open Championship. On his way there, he and Bob Drum, a friend and writer at the Pittsburgh Press, discussed the idea of the modern-era Grand Slam, which would include the Open Championship and the PGA Championship, as well as the U.S. Open and the Masters."


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## IainP (Oct 19, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because Arnie said so... 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/di...-four-majors-included-two-amateur-tournaments

"Then in 1960 golf's greatest star, Arnold Palmer, went across the pond to play in his first Open Championship. On his way there, he and Bob Drum, a friend and writer at the Pittsburgh Press, discussed the idea of the modern-era Grand Slam, which would include the Open Championship and the PGA Championship, as well as the U.S. Open and the Masters."
		
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Yep 👍, but what led him to say so?

And how relevant are his thoughts from 1960 in 202x?

(Not actually asking you 🙂, just putting out for debate)


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## AussieKB (Oct 19, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Let’s be honest. The only difference between a LiV major and a comp at my club is the prize money.

They are both about as relevant to the golfing world as each other.

It’s just more noise and desperate propaganda from an organisation that realises most people have no interest in LiV golf.
		
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No interest in LIV ?
then why are commenting and this forum is never ending, mostly by people who hate LIV
but need to keep telling people that they are not interested in LIV


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## AussieKB (Oct 19, 2022)

Does the public want to see Cam Smith defend The Open ?

I think it would be awful if he was banned, and some of the best players
not participating, how could that be good for Golf.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Does the public want to see Cam Smith defend The Open ?

I think it would be awful if he was banned, and some of the best players
not participating, how could that be good for Golf.
		
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Not bothered. Although, to be fair, it is only because I've never had any interest in Cameron Smith. I certainly don't think he should be banned.


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## AussieKB (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not bothered. Although, to be fair, it is only because I've never had any interest in Cameron Smith. I certainly don't think he should be banned.
		
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Whether you like him or not is irrelevant, to be denied the chance to defend the Championship would be detrimental to the Open in my opinion no matter who it is.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Whether you like him or not is irrelevant, to be denied the chance to defend the Championship would be detrimental to the Open in my opinion no matter who it is.
		
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It is not irrelevant, it is my personal opinion. I made that entirely clear. I also made it entirely clear he shouldn't be banned.


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## Newtonuti (Oct 20, 2022)

Everyday when I get into work, the first thing I do is check this thread  It's like a soap opera with all the arguing and drama!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			Everyday when I get into work, the first thing I do is check this thread  It's like a soap opera with all the arguing and drama!
		
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It should feature on the Netflix documentary on the PGA tbh.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			Everyday when I get into work, the first thing I do is check this thread  It's like a soap opera with all the arguing and drama!
		
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It would be a great replacement for Neighbours


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No interest in LIV ?
then why are commenting and this forum is never ending, mostly by people who hate LIV
but need to keep telling people that they are not interested in LIV
		
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Discussing the topic and being interested in the golf are two entirely different things.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Discussing the topic and being interested in the golf are two entirely different things.
		
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It has been said many times before, but some people just can't get their head around that I guess.


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## Backsticks (Oct 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No interest in LIV ?
then why are commenting and this forum is never ending, mostly by people who hate LIV
but need to keep telling people that they are not interested in LIV
		
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This thread is about the travails of LIV and its contest with the PGAT.
 The Professional Golf thread is there to discuss actual tournaments for pro golfers.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Discussing the topic and being interested in the golf are two entirely different things.
		
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I have no interest in Boxing, never discuss it with anyone, because, well I have no interest in it. ;-)


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I have no interest in Boxing, never discuss it with anyone, because, well I have no interest in it. ;-)
		
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Not a great analogy though, is it? Everyone here is interested in GOLF. 

I am interested in motor racing, in particular F1. I have no interest in many other aspects of motor racing, like Nascar. If a new branch of motor racing began, I may have no interest in watching it, but I may have an opinion on it, especially if it was likely to have any impacts on F1.

Same in football with European Super League. Zero interest in that happening, but as a football fan I had very strong opinions on it.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not a great analogy though, is it? Everyone here is interested in GOLF.

I am interested in motor racing, in particular F1. I have no interest in many other aspects of motor racing, like Nascar. If a new branch of motor racing began, I may have no interest in watching it, but I may have an opinion on it, especially if it was likely to have any impacts on F1.

Same in football with European Super League. Zero interest in that happening, but as a football fan I had very strong opinions on it.
		
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So you're interest in LIV is hoping it fails because you don't like it?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you're interest in LIV is hoping it fails because you don't like it?
		
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Absolutely not. My interest is in Golf. I have said before, if golf becomes bigger and better, I'm all for it. I have zero affiliation with the PGA Tour or any other. It just so happens the PGA Tour had grown into what it has become, and it has had years and years to look for ways to improve.

I don't think LIV has any chance of making golf bigger to the fans. Not even close. But, with the money involved, it is weakening the other tours around it. So, I would be happy to see it fail because I think it is a disease to golf.

If the money on offer simply matched the PGA (or less if they actually tried to run it like a proper business without huge losses), LIV would be nothing. The golf would certainly not be "growing the game"


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Absolutely not. My interest is in Golf. I have said before, if golf becomes bigger and better, I'm all for it. I have zero affiliation with the PGA Tour or any other. It just so happens the PGA Tour had grown into what it has become, and it has had years and years to look for ways to improve.

I don't think LIV has any chance of making golf bigger to the fans. Not even close. But, with the money involved, it is weakening the other tours around it. So, I would be happy to see it fail because I think it is a disease to golf.

If the money on offer simply matched the PGA (or less if they actually tried to run it like a proper business without huge losses), LIV would be nothing. The golf would certainly not be "growing the game"
		
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But you claim to never have watched LIV, and you claim to have no interest in it, so where are you getting your information from to form an opinion? 

I’ve watched plenty of LIV and in many areas, it beats what the PGA are offering, indeed, the former have had to react quite quickly to try and mitigate the long term damage that LIV will cause to their tour. The money is clearly a factor, but do you honestly believe Rory et al would have played so many events in the PGA tour if he could earn more on the European Tour? 

You can’t claim to have no interest in LIV, then repeatedly post on the subject on here. It’s a complete contradiction.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Oct 20, 2022)

It’d be interesting to find out the overall/combined viewing figures of LIV+PGA Tour and how that has changed recently.

I haven’t watched any golf since the FedEx, however long ago that was. I have probably taken less interest in the PGA Tour events since then, as the fields are weaker and there’s not so many big names competing (early season I know). There’s also little coverage of the actual golf these days to generate interest, as the sound bites, controversy and interviews have made the headlines on SkySportsNews (instead of the golf!)

But likewise, I haven’t and won’t watch LIV because I have no interest in it. Based on the YouTube viewing figures, no one is really watching it - considerably more people are sitting watch twitch TV hot tub streams than LIV.
I am a gamer, and a peak audience of 1.4million watched the League of Legends world championship group stages last week for comparison.

In attempting to “grow the game” (we know that is PR rubbish and they have no intent on growing the game), I wonder if the reality is that they have harmed the game and reduced the total golf viewing figures. Shrunk the game doesn’t sound like good PR though.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*But you claim to never have watched LIV*, and you claim to have no interest in it, so where are you getting your information from to form an opinion?

I’ve watched plenty of LIV and in many areas, it beats what the PGA are offering, indeed, the former have had to react quite quickly to try and mitigate the long term damage that LIV will cause to their tour. The money is clearly a factor, but do you honestly believe Rory et al would have played so many events in the PGA tour if he could earn more on the European Tour?

You can’t claim to have no interest in LIV, then repeatedly post on the subject on here. It’s a complete contradiction.
		
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And, apart from 10 or 15 minutes of the first event, that is true. As I have said before. And that was only because I was at work, and it was easy to stick it on my screen. How many events have there been so far? That should make it pretty clear I'm not interested in LIV as a golf spectacle.

Where do I get my information? Well, this thread for a start. Most of it is absolute "rubbish", and simply opinion than based on any actual facts. Fair enough, everyone has their own opinions. But, it has allowed me to do a bit of fact checking every now and then. Plus, the odd article on BBC website, segment in Sky Sports News, etc. It should be abundantly clear that, when someone on this thread says they have no interest, the context is they have no interest in the golf. They don't mean the topic as whole, otherwise they wouldn't comment at all. As I've said before, I'm interested in the politics and the chaos of it. Not interested in a good way, I'd rather it didn't exist at all. But interested in how things will pan out, and it's impact on golf as a spectacle. So, when people say "you say you are not interested yet comment on here", it is really just cheap points scoring by conveniently ignoring the context of what people mean my "interest"


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But you claim to never have watched LIV, and you claim to have no interest in it, so where are you getting your information from to form an opinion?

I’ve watched plenty of LIV and in many areas, it beats what the PGA are offering, indeed, the former have had to react quite quickly to try and mitigate the long term damage that LIV will cause to their tour. The money is clearly a factor, but do you honestly believe Rory et al would have played so many events in the PGA tour if he could earn more on the European Tour?

You can’t claim to have no interest in LIV, then repeatedly post on the subject on here. It’s a complete contradictionYou can’t claim to have no interest in LIV, then repeatedly post on the subject on here. It’s a complete contradiction.[/.
		
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I don't recall Swango saying he had no interest in LiV,  simply that like me he has no interest in watching because he believes that it is damaging to the game of golf.   This has been explained to you plenty of times,  yet you appear to not understand it,  or it is just another way the LiV bots try to put dissenting voices down.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And, apart from 10 or 15 minutes of the first event, that is true. As I have said before. And that was only because I was at work, and it was easy to stick it on my screen. How many events have there been so far? That should make it pretty clear I'm not interested in LIV as a golf spectacle.

Where do I get my information? Well, this thread for a start. Most of it is absolute "rubbish", and simply opinion than based on any actual facts. Fair enough, everyone has their own opinions. But, it has allowed me to do a bit of fact checking every now and then. Plus, the odd article on BBC website, segment in Sky Sports News, etc. It should be abundantly clear that, when someone on this thread says they have no interest, the context is they have no interest in the golf. They don't mean the topic as whole, otherwise they wouldn't comment at all. As I've said before, I'm interested in the politics and the chaos of it. Not interested in a good way, I'd rather it didn't exist at all. But interested in how things will pan out, and it's impact on golf as a spectacle. So, when people say "you say you are not interested yet comment on here", it is really just cheap points scoring by conveniently ignoring the context of what people mean my "interest"
		
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So you’re getting all your information from the BBC - who won’t even show the LIV results, just produce reports on the negative impact of LIV. Sky, who are contractually tied to the PGA and DP tours. And this forum, where you clearly have no interest in taking the views of the pro LIV posters. 
It’s not exactly balanced, is it?


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## Beezerk (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I am interested in motor racing, in particular F1. I have no interest in many other aspects of motor racing
		
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I guess it’s like the constructors championship in F1, it exists and people discuss it, but no one really gives two hoots about it 😂


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you’re getting all your information from the BBC - who won’t even show the LIV results, just produce reports on the negative impact of LIV. Sky, who are contractually tied to the PGA and DP tours. And this forum, where you clearly have no interest in taking the views of the pro LIV posters.
It’s not exactly balanced, is it?
		
Click to expand...

OMG. I say "Where do I get my information? Well, this thread for a start...Plus, the odd article on BBC website, segment in Sky Sports News, etc."

Mel Smooth replies "So you’re getting all your information from the BBC"

I'm sorry, but that is the most embarrassing, pathetic reply I've had in quite some time. It just goes to show Mel only reads what he wants, and twists it into some bizarre argument for his own side of the debate. It is no wonder this thread has gone on for so long. He simply ignores everything, thus repeats the same arguments, thus gets the same replies, makes the same arguments, etc.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I don't recall Swango saying he had no interest in LiV,  simply that like me he has no interest in watching because he believes that it is damaging to the game of golf.   This has been explained to you plenty of times,  yet you appear to not understand it,  or it is just another way the LiV bots try to put dissenting voices down.
		
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You mean damaging to the established pro golf tours?

The “game of golf” won’t be affected one little bit by LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean damaging to the established pro golf tours?

The “game of golf” won’t be affected one little bit by LIV.
		
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Really!? I thought it was supposed to grow the game!?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			OMG. I say "Where do I get my information? Well, this thread for a start...Plus, the odd article on BBC website, segment in Sky Sports News, etc."

Mel Smooth replies "So you’re getting all your information from the BBC"

I'm sorry, but that is the most embarrassing, pathetic reply I've had in quite some time. It just goes to show Mel only reads what he wants, and twists it into some bizarre argument for his own side of the debate. It is no wonder this thread has gone on for so long. He simply ignores everything, thus repeats the same arguments, thus gets the same replies, makes the same arguments, etc.
		
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Jesus man. That is the most tragic attempt at trying to misquote somebody ever!! 😂

I literally listed all YOUR sources in the post and you’ve clipped the quote to try and mug me off. 

Brilliant.
😂


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you’re getting all your information from the BBC - who won’t even show the LIV results, just produce reports on the negative impact of LIV. Sky, who are contractually tied to the PGA and DP tours. And this forum, where you clearly have no interest in taking the views of the pro LIV posters.
It’s not exactly balanced, is it?
		
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And you are getting all of your information from Twitter LiV bots, LiV players and others associated with it. How biased do you think they are?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			And you are getting all of your information from Twitter LiV bots, LiV players and others associated with it. How biased do you think they are?
		
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Am I?

I reply to lots of views to anti LIV posters on here, I often research related topics to try and get accurate information. I know I have a more balanced information resource than a lot of people I’m debating with on here, not everybody on Twitter is a LIV bot


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2022)

@Mel Smooth 

Everything you have posted on here it’s near enough a mirror image of what the LIV accounts on Twitter have posted - you’re normally a day behind them 

The recent post in regards PGA China was a perfect example 

This was the big LiV boy three days ago 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581853744563908610
it’s a regular occurrence- same with the major talk , ranking talk , it’s all the same as what’s posted on Twitter and it’s all from the same one sided LIV accounts

And when counter arguments to them are posted to debunk a number of their theories then it’s the same reaction you have - either ignore or try and deflect 

There is nothing you have brought up that wasn’t brought up by them before


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## Backsticks (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean damaging to the established pro golf tours?

The “game of golf” won’t be affected one little bit by LIV.
		
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Absolutely true. And applies equally to the hollow and disingenuous  claim from GN and LIV, that a benefit of live would be 'growing the game'.


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## Beezerk (Oct 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



@Mel Smooth 

Everything you have posted on here it’s near enough a mirror image of what the LIV accounts on Twitter have posted - you’re normally a day behind them 

The recent post in regards PGA China was a perfect example 

This was the big LiV boy three days ago 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581853744563908610
it’s a regular occurrence- same with the major talk , ranking talk , it’s all the same as what’s posted on Twitter and it’s all from the same one sided LIV accounts

And when counter arguments to them are posted to debunk a number of their theories then it’s the same reaction you have - either ignore or try and deflect 

There is nothing you have brought up that wasn’t brought up by them before
		
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As opposed to you constantly posting anti LIV Twitter posts 🤔

Christ, I can’t believe people are getting hung up on where some people “may” get their information from 🙈


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



@Mel Smooth

Everything you have posted on here it’s near enough a mirror image of what the LIV accounts on Twitter have posted - you’re normally a day behind them

The recent post in regards PGA China was a perfect example

This was the big LiV boy three days ago


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581853744563908610
it’s a regular occurrence- same with the major talk , ranking talk , it’s all the same as what’s posted on Twitter and it’s all from the same one sided LIV accounts

And when counter arguments to them are posted to debunk a number of their theories then it’s the same reaction you have - either ignore or try and deflect

There is nothing you have brought up that wasn’t brought up by them before
		
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Sorry Phil, I’ll see if I can go and find some inside info that absolutely nobody has released yet. Ffs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			As opposed to you constantly posting anti LIV Twitter posts 🤔

Christ, I can’t believe people are getting hung up on where some people “may” get their information from 🙈
		
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Do I constantly post “anti Liv Twitter posts” on here

are you sure it’s “constantly” 


Mel Smooth said:



			Sorry Phil, I’ll see if I can go and find some inside info that absolutely nobody has released yet. Ffs. 

Click to expand...

my post was in response to this 



Mel Smooth said:



			Am I?

I reply to lots of views to anti LIV posters on here, I often research related topics to try and get accurate information. I know I have a more balanced information resource than a lot of people I’m debating with on here, not everybody on Twitter is a LIV bot
		
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For all the accusations you hand in regards people being biased etc you claim you have “balanced research” - which is imo clearly nonsense when that research is from a heavily Pro LIV bias social media accounts 

If you are going to point fingers at people for being biased in their opinion at least have a large look in the mirror - we all know that you are very much Pro LiV and your angle is Pro LiV , mine angle is anti LIV , I don’t like it but I won’t hide it but at least lll try and stick to facts and do the checks first


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do I constantly post “anti Liv Twitter posts” on here

are you sure it’s “constantly”


my post was in response to this



For all the accusations you hand in regards people being biased etc you claim you have “balanced research” - which is imo clearly nonsense when that research is from a heavily Pro LIV bias social media accounts

If you are going to point fingers at people for being biased in their opinion at least have a large look in the mirror - we all know that you are very much Pro LiV and your angle is Pro LiV , mine angle is anti LIV , I don’t like it but I won’t hide it but at least lll try and stick to facts and do the checks first
		
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Of course I’m pro LIV, why would I even try to deny it. But unless you have access to my internet history you have no idea where I get my information from. 

I may well post with a slant on here, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t considered a lot of different views beforehand. 

Anyway, who do you think will make the cut in the CJ cup this weekend.


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## Imurg (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course I’m pro LIV, why would I even try to deny it. But unless you have access to my internet history you have no idea where I get my information from.

I may well post with a slant on here, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t considered a lot of different views beforehand.

Anyway, who do you think will make the cut in the CJ cup this weekend. 

Click to expand...

Once again...banging on about an event that gets ranking points without a cut..
It's been explained several times how and why events like the CJ Cup can be given ranking points but you seem to choose to ignore those facts.
This is systematic of just about all the LIV BOTS and Pro-LIV posters on SM....


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## Beezerk (Oct 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do I constantly post “anti Liv Twitter posts” on here

are you sure it’s “constantly” 


my post was in response to this 



For all the accusations you hand in regards people being biased etc you claim you have “balanced research” - which is imo clearly nonsense when that research is from a heavily Pro LIV bias social media accounts 

If you are going to point fingers at people for being biased in their opinion at least have a large look in the mirror - we all know that you are very much Pro LiV and your angle is Pro LiV , mine angle is anti LIV , I don’t like it but I won’t hide it but at least lll try and stick to facts and do the checks first
		
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Ha ha, you knew what I meant.
It’s the whole cancel culture type slant in some posts as well, it’s subtle but it’s there.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Once again...banging on about an event that gets ranking points without a cut..
It's been explained several times how and why events like the CJ Cup can be given ranking points but you seem to choose to ignore those facts.
This is systematic of just about all the LIV BOTS and Pro-LIV posters on SM....
		
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I know mate, I was being facetious.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You mean damaging to the established pro golf tours?

The “game of golf” won’t be affected one little bit by LIV.
		
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No, I mean damaging to golf all told,  yes mainly to the professional game but I also believe makes golf look completely obsessed with money going to players at the top which is not good for its overall reputation.  Time will tell I guess.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			No, I mean damaging to golf all told,  yes mainly to the professional game but I also believe makes golf look completely obsessed with money going to players at the top which is not good for its overall reputation.  Time will tell I guess.
		
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They’re elite sportsmen in their field, they should be able to earn on the same scale as any other top sportspeople. Right now, there’s question marks over whether that’s been the case. 
I doubt too many people will resent them increasing their value, and if course, Saudi money is driving increased recognition in the ladies game, which is always welcome.


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## Imurg (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re elite sportsmen in their field, they should be able to earn on the same scale as any other top sportspeople. Right now, there’s question marks over whether that’s been the case.
I doubt too many people will resent them increasing their value.
		
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Well, Pat Perez ain't complaining


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## AussieKB (Oct 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well, Pat Perez ain't complaining 

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Nor the Ladies who are sponsored by Saudi Oil....or the PGA pro's who have seen prize money skyrocket....
wonder where all that additional cash came from.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well, Pat Perez ain't complaining 

Click to expand...

That lads going on the transfer list, mark my words.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re elite sportsmen in their field, they should be able to earn on the same scale as any other top sportspeople. Right now, there’s question marks over whether that’s been the case.
I doubt too many people will resent them increasing their value, and if course, Saudi money is driving increased recognition in the ladies game, which is always welcome.
		
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Why have you brought the Ladies' game into this,  or have I missed the bit where PiV has developed a new closed invitational tour for Lady Golfers?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 20, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			Everyday when I get into work, the first thing I do is check this thread  It's like a soap opera with all the arguing and drama!
		
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It's more like a movie in my book. 


I'm thinking Groundhog Day.


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## Newtonuti (Oct 20, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's more like a movie in my book.


I'm thinking Groundhog Day.
		
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I watched that the other night actually. The Mrs had never seen it, boy was she in for a delightful couple of hours!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 20, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Why have you brought the Ladies' game into this,  or have I missed the bit where PiV has developed a new closed invitational tour for Lady Golfers?
		
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Because you were talking about ‘golf in general’……


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Because you were talking about ‘golf in general’……
		
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I was but as it relates to LiV,  again I ask how is what is currently happening in Ladies Golf,  related to LiV.


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## AussieKB (Oct 21, 2022)

Cam Smith and Mark Leishman have both entered the OZ Open, so it appears that OZ golf tournaments will accept LIV players to compete, crazy not too as the US players have not played these events for years, finally we will get see top class players.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Cam Smith and Mark Leishman have both entered the OZ Open, so it appears that OZ golf tournaments will accept LIV players to compete, crazy not too as the US players have not played these events for years, finally we will get see top class players.
		
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Top players have been going down to either events for a number of years 

The likes of Rory and Spieth have both players there and when they were number 1 etc 

These are Australian PGAT events - don’t you want to see the Australian players taking up the spaces to help them progress- there were complaints that the big stars were coming down taking up spots ?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Cam Smith and Mark Leishman have both entered the OZ Open, so it appears that OZ golf tournaments will accept LIV players to compete, crazy not too as the US players have not played these events for years, finally we will get see top class players.
		
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How many years are we talking? Last couple of years were cancelled due to Covid, but looking at past Champions, Spieth won in 2014 and 2016 and McIlroy in 2013. OK after Spieth won in 2016, not sure the winners in the next 3 years would have been considered big stars, although Ancer has done OK since his win in 2018. Not sure who else was in the field in the last 3 years it was played, but perhaps runner up Oosthuizen in 2019 was still considered a reasonably high level player at the time?


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## AussieKB (Oct 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Top players have been going down to either events for a number of years

The likes of Rory and Spieth have both players there and when they were number 1 etc

These are Australian PGAT events - don’t you want to see the Australian players taking up the spaces to help them progress- there were complaints that the big stars were coming down taking up spots ?
		
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Players on the US tour stopped coming when they went to the wrap around tour, now they have stopped that, maybe they will come again, but Rory doesn't feel comfortable playing with LIV players in the event as per Wentworth so who knows if he will come down under again, am sure he would be welcomed by all golf fans here.


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## Troymcclure (Oct 21, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			Everyday when I get into work, the first thing I do is check this thread  It's like a soap opera with all the arguing and drama!
		
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Same work ethic as mine 👍 Then straight into the Daily Stand-Up. “What’s going on McClure?” Have to stop myself saying “LIV still divisive but CR-Par gaining traction”.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 21, 2022)

I'm presuming OWGR points are awarded for Australian Tour Events? 

If so makes even more sense the Australian Liv Players will play in that tours big events..


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

Adrian Otaegui rewarded for his win at Valderama with a spot in the final round at Doral.


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## Backsticks (Oct 24, 2022)

Who got the bullet ?

Wow, thats still a lot of journeymen making up the field. While their target of tempting away the worlds best golfers failed, I though 54 would have succeeded more easily getting 3rd rate fillers to fill out the numbers. And tbh, and surprised they didnt. Are they offering unattractive money to the ballast ?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Who got the bullet ?

Wow, thats still a lot of journeymen making up the field. While their target of tempting away the worlds best golfers failed, I though 54 would have succeeded more easily getting 3rd rate fillers to fill out the numbers. And tbh, and surprised they didnt. Are they offering unattractive money to the ballast ?
		
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Yeah, there's no journeymen making up the other tours is there?

At least you'll be able to watch all of the action from LIV, unlike the CJ cup where the leaders had played for over an hour before the cameras went live.


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## Backsticks (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, there's no journeymen making up the other tours is there?

At least you'll be able to watch all of the action from LIV, unlike the CJ cup where the leaders had played for over an hour before the cameras went live.
		
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The PGAT has 54 top flight golfers to be fair.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The PGAT has 54 top flight golfers to be fair.
		
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More I would have thought, can't have crap golfers making up the numbers in all these no cut events they keep having ;-)


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## birdyhunter (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			unlike the CJ cup where the leaders had played for over an hour before the cameras went live.
		
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Yeah, that really put me off watching amazing golf on the PGAT, a great finish and Rory shooting the lights out to regain #1 on the OWGR, not some other floundering tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, there's no journeymen making up the other tours is there?

At least you'll be able to watch all of the action from LIV, unlike the CJ cup where the leaders had played for over an hour before the cameras went live.
		
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What channel is the LIV event on again ?

Was great watching Rory last night and some other great golf during the day on Sky Golf 

I’ll look out for the LIV golf on Sky Golf to see if it matches anyway near the same level of heartbreak , drama and world class golf


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What channel is the LIV event on again ?

Was great watching Rory last night and some other great golf during the day on Sky Golf

I’ll look out for the LIV golf on Sky Golf to see if it matches anyway near the same level of heartbreak , drama and world class golf
		
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It's on loads of channels globally, or You Tube in the UK/USA. You can even get You Tube to work on your television set, if you need the comfort of your regular armchair to enhance the viewing experience. ;-)


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## birdyhunter (Oct 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What channel is the LIV event on again ?

Was great watching Rory last night and some other great golf during the day on Sky Golf

I’ll look out for the LIV golf on Sky Golf to see if it matches anyway near the same level of heartbreak , drama and world class golf
		
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Lets' face it, watching LIV online and the uber-dull presenters trying to get excited about hasbeen players and the team event is like watching grass grow.  Sky is so much better.


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## Beezerk (Oct 24, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Lets' face it, watching LIV online and the uber-dull presenters trying to get excited about hasbeen players and the team event is like watching grass grow.  Sky is so much better.
		
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But Sky has Paul McGinley 😬


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## birdyhunter (Oct 24, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			But Sky has Paul McGinley 😬
		
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Ok, fair point


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's on loads of channels globally, or You Tube in the UK/USA. You can even get You Tube to work on your television set, if you need the comfort of your regular armchair to enhance the viewing experience. ;-)
		
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So it’s not on Sky golf then or any other other major media outlets 🤷‍♂️


Beezerk said:



			But Sky has Paul McGinley 😬
		
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That’s a very fair point - but I think he doesn’t seem to be around as much 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So it’s not on Sky golf t*hen or any other other major media outlets 🤷‍♂️
		
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Neither was the start of the final round of the CJ Cup yesterday for the leaders, and Phil, You Tube is a major media outlet, infact I'd guess it absolutely buries sky across the board on daily views. One Billion hours a day, I doubt Sky is getting anything close to that.

That doesn't remove the fact that LIV won't benefit from having a TV deal in place when it happens of course.


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## birdyhunter (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That doesn't remove the fact that LIV won't benefit from having a TV deal in place when it happens of course.
		
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Remind me why LIV hasn't secured a TV deal so far, when the tour is about as strong as it will ever be.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Remind me why LIV hasn't secured a TV deal so far, when the tour is about as strong as it will ever be.
		
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I don't know, remind me why it's as strong as it will ever be?


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## birdyhunter (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't know, remind me why it's as strong as it will ever be?
		
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They've run out of people to sign, and nobody wants to follow them anyway?


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2022)

Not quite sure what to post where these days, this fits into the general changes in professional golf rather than liv specifically. Still it may make a change from the "déjà vu" posts that are back 

Relates to the somewhat opaque world of owgr:

2021 Zozo championship - top 47 players received ranking points
2021 CJ Cup - top 58 players received ranking points

2022 Zozo championship - all 78 players received ranking points
2022 CJ Cup - all 78 players received ranking points 

I conclude that the rules must have changed in the August 2022 changes but don't recall it being mentioned, did anyone else?

The whole cut piece has had loads of airtime of late. I don't really think it is of much relevance, suspect it started out as a way of reducing how many players are paid, to increase to top places - but this is less relevant these days. I am actually for all competitors being paid, but I don't agree with giving out ranking points to every player. That feels wrong to me.
Any ideas for reasons for the change?
Perhaps couldn't agree on the algorithm to use or something...


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## Swango1980 (Oct 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Neither was the start of the final round of the CJ Cup yesterday for the leaders, and Phil, You Tube is a major media outlet, infact I'd guess it absolutely buries sky across the board on daily views. One Billion hours a day, I doubt Sky is getting anything close to that.

That doesn't remove the fact that LIV won't benefit from having a TV deal in place when it happens of course.
		
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You tries to do a good job of bigging up youtube, before acknowledging LIV will get a TV deal in due course. 

One would think you are trying to keep all angles covered.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not quite sure what to post where these days, this fits into the general changes in professional golf rather than liv specifically. Still it may make a change from the "déjà vu" posts that are back 

Relates to the somewhat opaque world of owgr:

2021 Zozo championship - top 47 players received ranking points
2021 CJ Cup - top 58 players received ranking points

2022 Zozo championship - all 78 players received ranking points
2022 CJ Cup - all 78 players received ranking points

I conclude that the rules must have changed in the August 2022 changes but don't recall it being mentioned, did anyone else?

The whole cut piece has had loads of airtime of late. I don't really think it is of much relevance, suspect it started out as a way of reducing how many players are paid, to increase to top places - but this is less relevant these days. I am actually for all competitors being paid, but I don't agree with giving out ranking points to every player. That feels wrong to me.
Any ideas for reasons for the change?
Perhaps couldn't agree on the algorithm to use or something...
		
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The rules now state that all players that make the cut and complete the event will receive points, so if there's no cut, then I guess they are all getting points. 
No idea why the change though.


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## AussieKB (Oct 25, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Lets' face it, watching LIV online and the uber-dull presenters trying to get excited about hasbeen players and the team event is like watching grass grow.  Sky is so much better.
		
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yep Champion Golfer of the Year Cam Smith a real has been.....


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## BrianM (Oct 25, 2022)

Got to say this talk about ‘has been’ players, ‘third rate’ players etc has got to stop, on which ever tour, these players are the best in the world, on their weeks could probably win any event.
It may just be an opinion but it makes you look like a clueless idiot.
Like any job their is up’s and down’s.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 25, 2022)

Right now, Otaegui would be in a place to get a PGA Tour card with the new arrangement with the DP World Tour if it was in place. If he'd never played on LIV, he would be being heralded as an exciting prospect  - but as we saw the other week, it nearly choked the DP Tour to even mention him until the final round - despite his record breaking scores.
Chacarra another one who has shown a lot of ability.
Kaewkanjana - but for one bad round would have been top 10 at The Open


These lads are definitely not has beens.


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## rksquire (Oct 25, 2022)

IainP said:



			Not quite sure what to post where these days, this fits into the general changes in professional golf rather than liv specifically. Still it may make a change from the "déjà vu" posts that are back 

Relates to the somewhat opaque world of owgr:

2021 Zozo championship - top 47 players received ranking points
2021 CJ Cup - top 58 players received ranking points

2022 Zozo championship - all 78 players received ranking points
2022 CJ Cup - all 78 players received ranking points

I conclude that the rules must have changed in the August 2022 changes but don't recall it being mentioned, did anyone else?

The whole cut piece has had loads of airtime of late. I don't really think it is of much relevance, suspect it started out as a way of reducing how many players are paid, to increase to top places - but this is less relevant these days. I am actually for all competitors being paid, but I don't agree with giving out ranking points to every player. That feels wrong to me.
Any ideas for reasons for the change?
Perhaps couldn't agree on the algorithm to use or something...
		
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The metric and criteria changed to better reflect individuals and tournaments - I posted a link many pages ago.... supposedly more 'fair' and endorsed by the PGAT.  It was agreed in 2021 and is in action as you say from August 2022.  The Stoke Gains World Ranking is touted as identifying the best player in the world using actual strokes in tournaments... basically, McIlroy has been the best player in the world since before August (accurate, but only now hit no. 1); Cam Smith has been the 2nd best player in the world for a while (also accurate) whilst Shuffler has (despite being World no. 1) not been the best player in the world for quite a bit of time (currently 5th or 6th I think).


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2022)

There is also a good number of players who are at the tail end of the career and some who haven’t have much of a career

Just look at some of players rankings when they moved over 

Perez - 181
Howell - 210
Uihlein - 300
Chase Koepka - 1300
Morgan - 300 plus 
McDowell - 326
Ormsby - 300

So yes there is a lot of players at the end of their career , some that didn’t really get a career and some that were journeymen 

With the added current top players of which there are 3/4


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## SteveJay (Oct 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Got to say this talk about ‘has been’ players, ‘third rate’ players etc has got to stop, on which ever tour, these players are the best in the world, on their weeks could probably win any event.
		
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Really? Can't see the likes of Poulter, Westwood, Horsfield, (and thats's just the Brits, I could add many others from the table above) to name a few, being likely to be in contention to win if they had remained on the PGA tour. Even they can't think that otherwise they would have stayed. A lot of them have clearly migrated to LIV for that very reason.....easy money given they can't compete elsewhere.

I get there are a handful of LIV golfers who fit your description, but to say all the LIV golfers could win on the PGA tour is just crazy.


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## PieMan (Oct 25, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Really? Can't see the likes of Poulter, Westwood, Horsfield, (and thats's just the Brits, I could add many others from the table above) to name a few, being likely to be in contention to win if they had remained on the PGA tour. Even they can't think that otherwise they would have stayed. A lot of them have clearly migrated to LIV for that very reason.....easy money given they can't compete elsewhere.

I get there are a handful of LIV golfers who fit your description, but to say all the LIV golfers could win on the PGA tour is just crazy.
		
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Agree.

You could also argue there are a fair few on the LIV tour that can't actually win on that tour either, even with the no cut and limited fields!!!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Got to say this talk about ‘has been’ players, ‘third rate’ players etc has got to stop, on which ever tour, these players are the best in the world, on their weeks could probably win any event.
It may just be an opinion but it makes you look like a clueless idiot.
Like any job their is up’s and down’s.
		
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Clueless idiots? That is a big accusation, when the debate you are having isn't one that anyone is really having? I didn't think anyone is saying 100% or golfers in LIV are 3rd rate or has beens?

However, when talking about the tour generally, it is a fair comment. If Cameron Smith and Brooks Koepka were to play in my monthly medal, it would still be fair to say that from a viewers perspective, it is still a 3rd rate (100th rate) competition based on quality of field.


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## AddisonRoad (Oct 25, 2022)

I think it's pretty clear the field for LIV is third-rate, but that's not to say it won't improve in the future if more defections occur. Even though DJ and Brooks are top players, until Cam Smith left, the type of players leaving the PGA were the exact types of players you expected — players that don't seem that bothered about playing golf or players that are past it.

From what I've seen, it's a pretty sloppy product thus far. Things may change, but I often find myself looking at DP World Tour and PGA results and completely forgetting LIV events are on. If the LIV investors are willing to burn cash indefinitely, it will be around for a while, although I think people are mistaken if they think LIV will be willing to basically lose 100s of millions annually for the next few years. The idea is to become profitable eventually. TBH they're looking to diversify their money outside of their national oil company, and they've made a lot of bad bets in the past (WeWork, Softbank, etc.); there's no doubt they're eager for a return at some point, so don't expect them to subsidize LIV indefinitely for the love of golf or the desire to be involved in western sport.


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## JamesR (Oct 25, 2022)

LIV is a mixture of players as you would expect when all the top players haven't (yet?) joined.

You have some top players - DJ, Smith Brooks, Bryson etc
Some very good, but not big names - Ortiz, Ancer, Niemann etc
Some coming to the end of their illustrious careers - Westwood, Poulter, McDowall etc
Some never really made it - Weisberger, Uihlein, Howell 3 etc
And some nobodies - Kim, Chase Koepka, Piot etc

For it to really make it I can only think that it needs to lose the bottom couple of rungs and add some more of the biggest names and those who were at the beginning of making it big.


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## bernix (Oct 25, 2022)

JamesR said:



			LIV is a mixture of players as you would expect when all the top players haven't (yet?) joined.

You have some top players - DJ, Smith Brooks, Bryson etc
Some very good, but not big names - Ortiz, Ancer, Niemann etc
Some coming to the end of their illustrious careers - Westwood, Poulter, McDowall etc
Some never really made it - Weisberger, Uihlein, Howell 3 etc
And some nobodies - Kim, Chase Koepka, Piot etc
		
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not unlike the composition of PGA Tour fields isnt it


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## JamesR (Oct 25, 2022)

bernix said:



			not unlike the composition of PGA Tour fields isnt it
		
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No, but wasn't LIV set up to have the very best all playing each other. I can't see that their real aim is to have the lesser lights joining in.

Whereas the PGA tour and the Euro' tour are both set up for anyone who qualifies from that continent or abroad.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 25, 2022)

bernix said:



			not unlike the composition of PGA Tour fields isnt it
		
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Maybe not. But one of the big "selling points" for LIV is the quality of field, hence the song and dance that is made when players like DJ, Brooks and Smith sign up. Hence the extraordinary amounts of money LIV are willing to spend to get them involved.

If the field is no better (or even contains fewer of the worlds top golfers) than standard PGA events, then LIV do not have a selling point in comparison to their rivals on that front. Unless their advertising campaign is "watch LIV, the fields are comparable to the standard PGA Tour events"

And, even if comparable, at least golf fans can genuinely feel that pretty much all the players playing in the PGA Tour events deserve to be there. They qualified.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 25, 2022)

When did LIV claim to have the worlds best golfers? 

What they do have is proportionally more of the top golfers than the vast majority of events that take place week in, week out, on any of the other tours.


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## Beezerk (Oct 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			When did LIV claim to have the worlds best golfers? 

What they do have is proportionally more of the top golfers than the vast majority of events that take place week in, week out, on any of the other tours.
		
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Honestly, some of the anti LIV posters on here would make great US presidents with the amount of fake news they bandy about 🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			When did LIV claim to have the worlds best golfers?

What they do have is proportionally more of the top golfers than the vast majority of events that take place week in, week out, on any of the other tours.
		
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The posts were in response to this 



BrianM said:



			Got to say this talk about ‘has been’ players, ‘third rate’ players etc has got to stop, on which ever tour,* these players are the best in the world,* on their weeks could probably win any event.
It may just be an opinion but it makes you look like a clueless idiot.
Like any job their is up’s and down’s.
		
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Social media is awash with claims similar in regards the level of players in the field


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## r0wly86 (Oct 25, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Honestly, some of the anti LIV posters on here would make great US presidents with the amount of fake news they bandy about 🤣
		
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wow, just wow

You don't even see the irony do you


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## Beezerk (Oct 25, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			wow, just wow

You don't even see the irony do you
		
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Irony on both sides mate 👌


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## BrianM (Oct 25, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Really? Can't see the likes of Poulter, Westwood, Horsfield, (and thats's just the Brits, I could add many others from the table above) to name a few, being likely to be in contention to win if they had remained on the PGA tour. Even they can't think that otherwise they would have stayed. A lot of them have clearly migrated to LIV for that very reason.....easy money given they can't compete elsewhere.

I get there are a handful of LIV golfers who fit your description, but to say all the LIV golfers could win on the PGA tour is just crazy.
		
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So Ben Curtis won a major when he was 396th in the world, was that just luck, everybody else was crap that week….

My point is, in my opinion, golf is one of the most open sports of all, all these guys on any tour on their week can win a tournament, I’d never even heard of the guy on the DP world last week and look at Tom Watson a few years ago, he nearly won the Open in his 60’s I think.
No one could of predicted that.

It’s just how golf is in my opinion, on their week anyone can win.


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## BrianM (Oct 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The posts were in response to this



Social media is awash with claims similar in regards the level of players in the field
		
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No shock you took it out of context, I said on any tour.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So Ben Curtis won a major when he was 396th in the world, was that just luck, everybody else was crap that week….

My point is, in my opinion, golf is one of the most open sports of all, all these guys on any tour on their week can win a tournament, I’d never even heard of the guy on the DP world last week and look at Tom Watson a few years ago, he nearly won the Open in his 60’s I think.
No one could of predicted that.

*It’s just how golf is in my opinion, on their week anyone can win*.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced anyone can win. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of golfers who have played a significant amount of PGA events and never won, and many who have just scraped into the PGA but never really stood a chance to win. 

At any rate, even if "anyone" could win, by highlighting examples of poorly ranked players winning an event in history, is not the same as saying everyone has an equal chance to win. It is why Woods was mega favourite in every event he played for about 15 years, and why others are given 500/1 odds.

It would be true though, that the poorer ranked players on LIV have a much better chance of winning LIV events. Not only is the field significantly smaller in size, they only need to string 3 good rounds together, not 4. And, there are only a handful of top quality players in LIV events, so if none of them have a good 3 days, it can really start opening things up for others. And, this can be very likely, as it is probably pretty rare that a top quality player actually plays near their best, so this can leave a lot of opportunities for the poorer players in LIV. Mind you, I don't know enough about all the LIV players, so maybe there are about 10-20 who don't even stand a chance in LIV, simply because they are so poor?


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## BrianM (Oct 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not convinced anyone can win. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of golfers who have played a significant amount of PGA events and never won, and many who have just scraped into the PGA but never really stood a chance to win.

At any rate, even if "anyone" could win, by highlighting examples of poorly ranked players winning an event in history, is not the same as saying everyone has an equal chance to win. It is why Woods was mega favourite in every event he played for about 15 years, and why others are given 500/1 odds.

It would be true though, that the poorer ranked players on LIV have a much better chance of winning LIV events. Not only is the field significantly smaller in size, they only need to string 3 good rounds together, not 4. And, there are only a handful of top quality players in LIV events, so if none of them have a good 3 days, it can really start opening things up for others. And, this can be very likely, as it is probably pretty rare that a top quality player actually plays near their best, so this can leave a lot of opportunities for the poorer players in LIV. Mind you, I don't know enough about all the LIV players, so maybe there are about 10-20 who don't even stand a chance in LIV, simply because they are so poor?
		
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Im not sure what you’re getting at, the boy that won on the DP tour, I think was his first win, probably a rank outsider to win, but did anyway.
Clearly some golfers are more consistent, go on better runs etc, like you said about Tiger, but I stand by my comments about anyone can win on any given week on any tour.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 25, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Im not sure what you’re getting at, the boy that won on the DP tour, I think was his first win, probably a rank outsider to win, but did anyway.
Clearly some golfers are more consistent, go on better runs etc, like you said about Tiger, but I stand by my comments about anyone can win on any given week on any tour.
		
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They are not just more consistent though, or go on better runs (not through luck anyway). They are simply miles better golfers. Hence the reason the ones that never win, or win on the rarest of occasion, are often called third rate (I.e. relative to the conversation that was being had).

Jeff Overton is a 3rd rate golfer in comparison to Woods, McIlroy, Smith, DJ, etc. Those guys are simply miles better than him. Doesn't rule him out from ever winning necessarily, but that still doesn't put him on the same level as them.


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## IainP (Oct 25, 2022)

rksquire said:



			The metric and criteria changed to better reflect individuals and tournaments - I posted a link many pages ago.... supposedly more 'fair' and endorsed by the PGAT.  It was agreed in 2021 and is in action as you say from August 2022.  The Stoke Gains World Ranking is touted as identifying the best player in the world using actual strokes in tournaments... basically, McIlroy has been the best player in the world since before August (accurate, but only now hit no. 1); Cam Smith has been the 2nd best player in the world for a while (also accurate) whilst Shuffler has (despite being World no. 1) not been the best player in the world for quite a bit of time (currently 5th or 6th I think).
		
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Yes I recall the previous post & link, but I don't think it, nor today's post, cover the change I was highlighting  - unless I've misunderstood.


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## IainP (Oct 25, 2022)

As posted elsewhere, I do think Rory is rightfully numero uno. IMO a pretty balanced piece there from GM...

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/ha...m_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow


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## birdyhunter (Oct 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			yep Champion Golfer of the Year Cam Smith a real has been.....
		
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It's a one off.. just watch his rankings in the OWGR decline now


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 25, 2022)

FTFY 



birdyhunter said:



			It's a one off.. just watch his rankings in the accuracy of the OWGR decline now
		
Click to expand...


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## Newtonuti (Oct 25, 2022)

Right, ima set up a boxing night, forum members who support LIV on one side, and anti-LIV on the other  Anchorman rules, no touching of the hair or face.


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## JamesR (Oct 25, 2022)




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## TheBigDraw (Oct 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			While their target of tempting away the worlds best golfers failed
		
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You think they have stopped ?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 25, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			It's a one off.. just watch his rankings in the OWGR decline now
		
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So Cam Smiths Open Win and Players win was a one off 🤔
And Cam Smiths OWGR ranking declines now because ???


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So Cam Smiths Open Win and Players win was a one off 🤔
*And Cam Smiths OWGR ranking declines now* *because *???
		
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Because he chose to take the guaranteed money and join a tour that doesn't meet the qualifying criteria to gain OWGR points, just the same as if he'd left the PGA tour and decided to only play monthly medals at your club. He'd still be one of the best golfers in the world but wouldn't be earning OWGR points and would be falling down the rankings. Even Mel Smooth, who appears to be one of LIVs biggest supporters, has admitted that they don't meet the criteria. Smith has made his choice and that's entirely his decision, as have all the other golfers that have joined the tour. They have all joined a tour that doesn't meet the requirements to be awarded points. Does that call into question the legitimacy of the OWGR? Probably not immediately, but in the longer term then yes it does as despite all the arguments LIV do have some of the best golfers playing on their tour. A solution needs to be found if the OWGR is to remain relevant and remain as the "Official" rankings as without the inclusion of players such as Smith, DJ, Bryson, Koepka etc they can't claim to be ranking the best players in the world.


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## Backsticks (Oct 25, 2022)

bernix said:



			not unlike the composition of PGA Tour fields isnt it
		
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Simply having more golfers, even if the mix or proportions are similar, is a big difference though.
There is a big step up in the value of a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30 (pre migration), rather than about 5.
DJ and Cam Smith are great, really top notch, no question. But two of that level doesnt bring an LIV tournament close to a PGat one with 10 or 15 of that level. They have to beat a lot of good players to win. DJ and Cs only have to beat a couple of their peers.


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## Backsticks (Oct 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			You think they have stopped ?
		
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Unlikely. But still true that to date, they utterly failed to reach their goal of a critical mass of top rankers to give credibility to the level of competition.


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## Backsticks (Oct 25, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So Cam Smiths Open Win and Players win was a one off 🤔
And Cam Smiths OWGR ranking declines now because ???
		
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It declines because the system is flawed, and, because he has retired from serious competitive golf. A modern day Jones, walking away at the peak, engaging only in leisurely golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because he chose to take the guaranteed money and join a tour that doesn't meet the qualifying criteria to gain OWGR points, just the same as if he'd left the PGA tour and decided to only play monthly medals at your club. He'd still be one of the best golfers in the world but wouldn't be earning OWGR points and would be falling down the rankings. Even Mel Smooth, who appears to be one of LIVs biggest supporters, has admitted that they don't meet the criteria. Smith has made his choice and that's entirely his decision, as have all the other golfers that have joined the tour. They have all joined a tour that doesn't meet the requirements to be awarded points. Does that call into question the legitimacy of the OWGR? Probably not immediately, but in the longer term then yes it does as despite all the arguments LIV do have some of the best golfers playing on their tour. *A solution needs to be found if the OWGR is to remain relevant and remain as the "Official" rankings as without the inclusion of players such as Smith, DJ, Bryson, Koepka etc they can't claim to be ranking the best players in the world.*

Click to expand...

I've posted the link to this before on here, but this website provides a much, much more concise and in depth collection of data on proffesional golfers. It existed before LIV started of course, and infact, the OWGR have moved closer to their method of ranking players in the changes that took place in August of this year.

People will just start using these sources of information to rank players rather than the OWGR - of course the keyholders to the majors might not, but that will diminish the legitamacy of the OWGR when the rankings become strikingly different due to the lack of inclusion in their system.

Interestingly - Cam Smith is lower in these rankings than he is in the OWGR, which given his form since his LIV debut, probably makes sense.

https://datagolf.com/datagolf-rankings


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## Beezerk (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Unlikely. But still true that to date, they utterly failed to reach their goal of a critical mass of top rankers to give credibility to the level of competition.
		
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I’d disagree, I’m actually surprised how many top name golfers they’ve got in such a small space of time. I fully expected Mickleson and the other older fellas to shift over then maybe some big names in the next year or two, not DJ, Bryson, Cam Smith, Brooks etc all within a few months 😳


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’d disagree, I’m actually surprised how many top name golfers they’ve got in such a small space of time. I fully expected Mickleson and the other older fellas to shift over then maybe some big names in the next year or two, not DJ, Bryson, Cam Smith, Brooks etc all within a few months 😳
		
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I must admit, when I'm watching LIV, the coverage seems to show shots from plenty of top players pretty consistently, and given this is a Beta year for them, I'd say they've done pretty well in terms of recruiting some quality players. What they have also done is add some big names who will carry a lot of interest as the team element comes into play, and the franchises develop. Bubba, Bryson, DJ, Poults, Westwood etc.. These guys will help draw in the corporate interest due to their legacy in the game - they weren't just brought in for their comparable golfing ability with the current crop of golfers.


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Simply having more golfers, even if the mix or proportions are similar, is a big difference though.
There is a big step up in the value of a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30 (pre migration), rather than about 5.
DJ and Cam Smith are great, really top notch, no question. But two of that level doesnt bring an LIV tournament close to a PGat one with 10 or 15 of that level. They have to beat a lot of good players to win. DJ and Cs only have to beat a couple of their peers.
		
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Serious question,  do you actually watch much of the PGAT? Because there are nearly 50 tournaments it has always had several tiers. I struggle with why people can't just understand the models are _different._
It's easy to do as you just have done and cherry pick from a top tier event "a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30" - just as it would be easy for someone to cherry pick a non top tier event, like perhaps this week where there are no players in the top 40. I just don't see the point in it.
The PGAT will vary each week, the liv will likely stay pretty similar. There are just _different.  🤷‍♂️_


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 26, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because he chose to take the guaranteed money and join a tour that doesn't meet the qualifying criteria to gain OWGR points, just the same as if he'd left the PGA tour and decided to only play monthly medals at your club. He'd still be one of the best golfers in the world but wouldn't be earning OWGR points and would be falling down the rankings. Even Mel Smooth, who appears to be one of LIVs biggest supporters, has admitted that they don't meet the criteria. Smith has made his choice and that's entirely his decision, as have all the other golfers that have joined the tour. They have all joined a tour that doesn't meet the requirements to be awarded points. Does that call into question the legitimacy of the OWGR? Probably not immediately, but in the longer term then yes it does as despite all the arguments LIV do have some of the best golfers playing on their tour. A solution needs to be found if the OWGR is to remain relevant and remain as the "Official" rankings as without the inclusion of players such as Smith, DJ, Bryson, Koepka etc they can't claim to be ranking the best players in the world.
		
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Actually the point I was trying to make. 

So if Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, Brooks K and BDC all fall down to outside the top 100 in OWGR they cease to be some of the best golfers in the world ?

NO of course not, nobody with any brief understanding of pro golf would say that.
Even Rory said the below
“I certainly would want the best players in the world ranked accordingly,*I think if Dustin Johnson is somewhere around 100th in the world then it's not an accurate reflection of where he is in the game.*”


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Unlikely. But still true that to date, they utterly failed to reach their goal of a critical mass of top rankers to give credibility to the level of competition.
		
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The OWGR decision is huge.
If Liv get OWGR I think we will see a flurry of some of the top 30 golfers move across.

The lack of OWGR is defo a deterrent right now for any that are considering it.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Actually the point I was trying to make.

So if Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, Brooks K and BDC all fall down to outside the top 100 in OWGR they cease to be some of the best golfers in the world ?

NO of course not, nobody with any brief understanding of pro golf would say that.
Even Rory said the below
“I certainly would want the best players in the world ranked accordingly,*I think if Dustin Johnson is somewhere around 100th in the world then it's not an accurate reflection of where he is in the game.*”
		
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If a golfer is out injured for a long time, they can drop down the rankings and one could argue the rankings are therefore not accurate. DJ took time out in 2014 (probably forced), so I suspect his ranking slipped then.

There will always be arguments as to how accurate any ranking system is. The LIV golfers would have been well aware that, at least in the short and medium term, they were walking away from ranking events. It is clearly much more difficult to accommodate LIV, as the LIV players and other tour players are operating under a completely different set of goalposts. Not just in terms of tournament format, but also the quality of fields they play against. We all know that several LIV golfers were excellent golfers when they joined LIV. However, it is difficult to tell if they are still playing with the same form when playing LIV events. Decent results could simply be because the other limited golfers in the field are not good enough, and becoming stagnant (i.e. not constantly refreshed by many up and coming form players). For example, Cameron Smith was 2nd in the world when he joined LIV (I think). In 6 months time, would some consider him to still be 2nd best? What LIV results would he need to prove that? Even with good results, perhaps if he played on the regular PGA Tour for the same period of time, it would actually show a big drop in form when up against a greater amount of players, and better players. To some but a lesser extent, the opposite could happen. Maybe his LIV events were not great. But, had he played in 4 rounds (so consistency is better rewarded) and more PGA events, his best results could actually be better than LIV, and actually show his form is better than he could show on LIV.

So, even for those that demand LIV get ranking points, there has to at least be qualification to keep the field fresh. After that, the complicated part will be how to fairly apply ranking points so you are not favouring one tour over another. I'm not sure if there is that argument, even when comparing PGA Tour, DP World Tour, etc. but at least they are comparable on many more levels.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

If the OWGR is considered to be inaccurate it must be understood that it's not OWGR's fault that certain players have moved to play golf that doesn't attract ranking points due to that brand of golf not fulfilling the criteria laid down in order to attract said points. The position would be the same if these players had retired.
Thus, the OWGR is accurate.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If the OWGR is considered to be inaccurate it must be understood that it's not OWGR's fault that certain players have moved to play golf that doesn't attract ranking points due to that brand of golf not fulfilling the criteria laid down in order to attract said points. The position would be the same if these players had retired.
Thus, the OWGR is accurate.
		
Click to expand...

It''s accurate at measuring players that fit their criteria, that's all. In it's current form, it's obsolete for ranking proffesional golfers. If the powers that be want to use it to control who gains entry to Majors, regardless of ability, then it's absolutely perfect ;-)


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## PieMan (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The position would be the same if these players had retired.
		
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Let's face it there's a case for arguing about half a dozen more or less had, hence taking the Saudi wonga!!!!!


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It''s accurate at measuring players that fit their criteria, that's all. In it's current form, it's obsolete for ranking proffesional golfers. If the powers that be want to use it to control who gains entry to Majors, regardless of ability, then it's absolutely perfect ;-)
		
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So who's fault is it..?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 26, 2022)

Phil v Cam stands out #matchplay


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585265339788660738


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So who's fault is it..?
		
Click to expand...


The combination of players being banned from the PGA Tour and the inability of LIV to cement ranking has exposed the failings of the OWGR.

I've posted earlier, there are alternatives that rank all players - the OWGR is fast becoming a tool to discredit LIV, rather than rank players.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Phil v Cam stands out #matchplay


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585265339788660738

Click to expand...

Indeed, not bad for the bottom feeders in the series that couldn't even manage to get a bye into Saturday ;-)


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

LIV is the Mario Ballotelli of Golf...
It's never their fault ...


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			LIV is the Mario Ballotelli of Golf...
It's never their fault ...
		
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I said it was their fault, just as I said it’s the PGA tours fault those LIV players can no longer play on the tour that has the most points on offer. 

I think that’s a fair assessment.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 26, 2022)

🤔🤔🤔

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/ro...flow&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I said it was their fault, just as I said it’s the PGA tours fault those LIV players can no longer play on the tour that has the most points on offer. 

I think that’s a fair assessment.
		
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It's the players fault not the PGA tour. They were aware of the rules when they signed up for the tour that they couldn't play on another tour without a release from the PGA tour. The players chose to break that part of their contract, that's not the fault of the PGA tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's the players fault not the PGA tour. They were aware of the rules when they signed up for the tour that they couldn't play on another tour without a release from the PGA tour. The players chose to break that part of their contract, that's not the fault of the PGA tour.
		
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The PGA have released players before, they chose to ban the LIV players to try and stem the flow of players - it didn't work, now it looks like their option is to use the OWGR points situation to try and stop the LIV series from taking a significant number more. But, the credibility of the OWGR rankings are already being questioned by plenty of people - and it will become abundantly clear that the OWGR is just an extension of Pelley and Monahans opinions on LIV, given there are already cedible ways of ranking players.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It''s accurate at measuring players that fit their criteria, that's all. In it's current form, it's obsolete for ranking proffesional golfers. If the powers that be want to use it to control who gains entry to Majors, regardless of ability, then it's absolutely perfect ;-)
		
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Glad to see that you totally understand. The system wasn't devised for golfers playing leisurely golf like LIV Series. I do believe that the OWGR org. is debating as we speak as to how many points if any to anyone not conforming to the said criterias.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Glad to see that you totally understand. The system wasn't devised for golfers playing leisurely golf like LIV Series. I do believe that the OWGR org. is debating as we speak as to how many points if any to anyone not conforming to the said criterias.
		
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Well let’s hope they see sense to preserve their reputation as being a reliable ranking system for ALL professional golfers.


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*The* *PGA* *have* *released* *players* *before*, they chose to ban the LIV players to try and stem the flow of players - it didn't work, now it looks like their option is to use the OWGR points situation to try and stop the LIV series from taking a significant number more. But, the credibility of the OWGR rankings are already being questioned by plenty of people - and it will become abundantly clear that the OWGR is just an extension of Pelley and Monahans opinions on LIV, given there are already cedible ways of ranking players.
		
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Were those players released to play tours based mainly in North America?


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## Dando (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The combination of players being banned from the PGA Tour and the inability of LIV to cement ranking has exposed the failings of the OWGR.

I've posted earlier, there are alternatives that rank all players - the OWGR is fast becoming a tool to discredit LIV, rather than rank players.
		
Click to expand...


Failings of the OWGR 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Were those players released to play tours based mainly in North America?
		
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I don't know, but the world is a small place these days, so is that relevant, unless they wanted to, I don't know... control their monopoly of that area?


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

PGAT has always had a system for allowing players to play on other Tours that don't detract from their current event. 
Funnily enough LIV doesn't meet the criteria for that..
Heard that before somewhere......


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## Backsticks (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If the OWGR is considered to be inaccurate it must be understood that it's not OWGR's fault that certain players have moved to play golf that doesn't attract ranking points due to that brand of golf not fulfilling the criteria laid down in order to attract said points. The position would be the same if these players had retired.
Thus, the OWGR is accurate.
		
Click to expand...

Nonsense. If the OWGR claims to discriminate and rank the best golfers in the world, then it has to adapt to what golfers are doing, and assign rankings the represent the level of their golf and competitive performance.
If it doesnt have the capability to judge that Cam Smith is one of the best 10 players in the world, then it is inaccurate, do question. Arguments that, well, he doesnt play in tournaments that they OWGR sets down as necessary for its points, therefore he isnt a good golfer is rubbish and fooling no one. We see it for the LIV v PGAT propaganda that it is.
The OWGR has become meaningless now. It is not what it says on its tin.
It has become a tool in that war - at the expense of its credibility.
It is like arguing that if a watch is running slow, that the earth should slow down. The measurement tool no longer fits reality. The tool must be recalibrated.


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## Backsticks (Oct 26, 2022)

The OWGR has as much credibility now as North Korea's claim about Kim Jong-Il being the all time greatest golfer. OWGR needs to move quickly to correct this. Or some people might regard it rankings as dubious, like those who have doubts about Kim's scoring 38 under.

Kim Jong-Il once carded 38-under par at Pyongyang Golf Course | The Star


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

OWGR ranks all professional Tours that meet their criteria. MEET THEIR CRITERIA...
LIV chose to ignore those criteria.
So LIV get no points.
This is not an OWGR problem..Smith, DJ etc are playing in events that do not qualify. By choice.
It's really simple....
LIV complies with the criteria for gaining ranking points, going through the process as prescribed, and they get points and the the Pros can do what the hell they like...
What is difficult understand about that.?


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## Backsticks (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			OWGR ranks all professional Tours that meet their criteria. MEET THEIR CRITERIA...
		
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Thats the problem. If THEIR CRITERIA dont correctly assess the rankings of the world best golfers, then they are meaningless.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Nonsense. If the OWGR claims to discriminate and rank the best golfers in the world, then it has to adapt to what golfers are doing, and assign rankings the represent the level of their golf and competitive performance.
If it doesnt have the capability to judge that Cam Smith is one of the best 10 players in the world, then it is inaccurate, do question. Arguments that, well, he doesnt play in tournaments that they OWGR sets down as necessary for its points, therefore he isnt a good golfer is rubbish and fooling no one. We see it for the LIV v PGAT propaganda that it is.
The OWGR has become meaningless now. It is not what it says on its tin.
It has become a tool in that war - at the expense of its credibility.
It is like arguing that if a watch is running slow, that the earth should slow down. The measurement tool no longer fits reality. The tool must be recalibrated.
		
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But Cam Smith is no longer competing against other golfers in the world. He is competing in a closed shop exhibition tour. 

So how do you assess his ability against golfers on tours that aren’t a closed shop?


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			But Cam Smith is no longer competing against other golfers in the world. He is competing in a closed shop exhibition tour.

So how do you assess his ability against golfers on tours that aren’t a closed shop?
		
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https://www.owgr.com/faq


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats the problem. If THEIR CRITERIA dont correctly assess the rankings of the world best golfers, then they are meaningless.
		
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Those golfers are playing a tour that doesn't play the same golf as the others.
It's like Man City deciding that they're only going to play an hour but still want all 3 points when they win.....
If these other "best players in the world" want in then they need to lean on LIV..not the other way round.
LIV is showing unparalleled levels of arrogance in demanding that everyone else bows to their demands.......they are the outsiders..


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



*Those golfers are playing a tour that doesn't play the same golf as the others.*
It's like Man City deciding that they're only going to play an hour but still want all 3 points when they win.....
If these other "best players in the world" want in then they need to lean on LIV..not the other way round.
LIV is showing unparalleled levels of arrogance in demanding that everyone else bows to their demands.......they are the outsiders..
		
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure they are. Let's not get into the argument about cuts, and number of holes, because it doesn't really hold up in the OWGR's favour.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm pretty sure they are. Let's not get into the argument about cuts, and number of holes, because it doesn't really hold up in the OWGR's favour.
		
Click to expand...

The case for the arrogance prosecution rests M'lud


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The case for the arrogance prosecution rests M'lud
		
Click to expand...

Poor response, I'll invite you to explain that view, but won't hold my breath.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats the problem. If THEIR CRITERIA dont correctly assess the rankings of the world best golfers, then they are meaningless.
		
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LOL! They're only meaningless to the players that refuses to conform.
OWGR points become meaningless when players that don't conform receive unearned points.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Poor response, I'll invite you to explain that view, but won't hold my breath.
		
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No point..you wouldn't listen to it.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Those golfers are playing a tour that doesn't play the same golf as the others.
It's like Man City deciding that they're only going to play an hour but still want all 3 points when they win.....
If these other "best players in the world" want in then they need to lean on LIV..not the other way round.
*LIV is showing unparalleled levels of arrogance i*n demanding that everyone else bows to their demands.......they are the outsiders..
		
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%....and that arrogance that LIV possesses is very annoying.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			No point..you wouldn't listen to it.
		
Click to expand...

Of course I would, I listened to the lame “arrogant” comment didn’t I?


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## Backsticks (Oct 26, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			LOL! They're only meaningless to the players that refuses to conform.
		
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They are meaningless to me. And anyone who wants to see a ranking of who the worlds best golfers are - which given the name of the OWGR, suggests it purports to give. They used to make a good assessment of it. But now distorts itself as it hasnt updated to the modern world, which includes topflight golfers not playing in tournaments that didnt exist when it was defined. The measure isnt fit for purpose. OWGR are a laughing stock if they dont adapt very sharply now.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They are meaningless to me. And anyone who wants to see a ranking of who the worlds best golfers are - which given the name of the OWGR, suggests it purports to give. They used to make a good assessment of it. But now distorts itself as it hasnt updated to the modern world, which includes topflight golfers not playing in tournaments that didnt exist when it was defined. The measure isnt fit for purpose. OWGR are a laughing stock if they dont adapt very sharply now.
		
Click to expand...

Again it's everyone else having to comply with LIV....it should be the other way round.
LIV just make noise and expect everyone to listen.
And they don't listen to anyone else.
LIV are the problem.


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

🙁


☹    again...


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## birdyhunter (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm pretty sure they are. Let's not get into the argument about cuts, and number of holes, because it doesn't really hold up in the OWGR's favour.
		
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Is LIV open to anyone, or invitation only to one of the 48 slots?

Just asking for a mate who wants to gain some OWGR points.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 26, 2022)

*Oozlum bird*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The *oozlum bird*, also spelled *ouzelum*, is a legendary creature found in Australian and British folk tales and legends. Some versions have it that, the bird will  fly around in ever-decreasing circles until it manages to fly up its own backside, disappearing completely, which adds to its rarity.

Sounds a bit like this thread


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 26, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Is LIV open to anyone or invitation only to one of the 48 slots?

Just asking for a mate who wants to gain some OWGR points.
		
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Tell him not to bother, apparently LIV can spot a talented amateur, sign him up, and that kid can fulfill his potential within 5 events to win several million dollars.

If your mate wants Gregg’s number, DM me
;-


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## birdyhunter (Oct 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Tell him not to bother, apparently LIV can spot a talented amateur, sign him up, and that kid can fulfill his potential within 5 events to win several million dollars.

If your mate wants Gregg’s number, DM me
;-
		
Click to expand...

So it's invitation only?  Thanks.. I'll tell her that she will never get OWGR points in LIV


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## cleveland52 (Oct 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They are meaningless to me. And anyone who wants to see a ranking of who the worlds best golfers are - which given the name of the OWGR, suggests it purports to give. They used to make a good assessment of it. But now distorts itself as it hasnt updated to the modern world, which includes topflight golfers not playing in tournaments that didnt exist when it was defined. The measure isnt fit for purpose. OWGR are a laughing stock if they dont adapt very sharply now.
		
Click to expand...

OWGR has no obligation to rank leisurely golf no matter how many times LIV exhibition fans repeat its bogus claim that the process is illegitimate. Hopefully LIV Golf Series bullying tactic will fail despite all of its backdoor antics.

People are laughing. but they're laughing at the ridiculous excuses LIV fans are presenting in favor of points.


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## Backsticks (Oct 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Again it's everyone else having to comply with LIV....it should be the other way round.
LIV just make noise and expect everyone to listen.
And they don't listen to anyone else.
LIV are the problem.
		
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LIV are a problem alright. Its a crap tour, and harming the entertainment value of pro golf. But prostituting the OWGR as a tool of the PGAT seems something the PGAT is willing to sacrifice. There may be an Official World Golf Ranking these days, but there is no ranking of the world's best golfers.


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Is LIV open to anyone, or invitation only to one of the 48 slots?

Just asking for a mate who wants to gain some OWGR points.
		
Click to expand...

Go on then, I'll bite.

For clarification, which tournaments can *you* share that are open to _absolutely anyone_?

The Open Championship might be an obvious choice, but then players have to have attained a certain standard, and have to be male! So no, that doesn't fit, not open to anyone.

Am not here to defend liv. The limitations are well known. I am capable of acknowledging it has only been around 4 months though. 
There was this stuff....
https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-relegation-qualifying-tournament/?amp=1

🥱 🥱


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## birdyhunter (Oct 26, 2022)

IainP said:



			Go on then, I'll bite.

For clarification, which tournaments can *you* share that are open to _absolutely anyone_?
		
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I don't think *you *understand the simple difference between qualification and invitation


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			I don't think *you *understand the simple difference between qualification and invitation
		
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Nah, just reading the words written. (and clearly being back pedalled from now)

I imagine a fair few score of PGAT members would have liked to have played the CJ Cup last week  - but it wasn't open to them. Especially not the 13% of places that were for invitations. 🤷‍♂️

Message received, invitationals are now bad. Best remove all records of early Masters tournaments.


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## birdyhunter (Oct 26, 2022)

IainP said:



			invitationals are now bad. Best remove all records of early Masters tournaments.
		
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I didn't know that OWGR pre-dated early Masters tournaments.  You live and learn


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## IainP (Oct 26, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			I didn't know that OWGR pre-dated early Masters tournaments.  You live and learn 

Click to expand...

Checked posts 7926 & 7928 for any references to OWGR  - and of course there aren't any.
Post 7929 duly filed into "Deflection 101".

🥱 
Good evening.


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## Ian_George (Oct 26, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			OWGR has no obligation to rank leisurely golf no matter how many times LIV exhibition fans repeat its bogus claim that the process is illegitimate. Hopefully LIV Golf Series bullying tactic will fail despite all of its backdoor antics.

People are laughing. but they're laughing at the ridiculous excuses LIV fans are presenting in favor of points.
		
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I'm in favour of LIV golfers being awarded points - eventually!
But before that happens, LIV must comply with the many, reasonable, requirements/rules that it currently fails to, primarily as these 'standardise' the assessment of any tournament's worth! Those requirements were published long before LIV started demanding immediate allocation of points and are complied with by all tours that awarded them. So I agree with your description of their tactics as 'bullying' and 'backdoor'!

It seems, to me, that it's really only for the Majors that 'immediate' OWGR points, are critical - and then only for a very limited number of players anyway.  The likes of Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, BdC etc already gualify - through criteria separate to OWGR positions - and will continue to do so for 2-3 years, so they've no problem if it takes the standard 12 month-ish assessment time before the tour is able to allocate points. If that wasn't considered and checked by the other players before they signed up to LIV, then more fool them!! They already have a convenient vehicle, the MENA Tour through which to achieve that - while still operating their 'invitation' series.

As for the alternative ranking - that includes LIV tournaments/players, that's simply a different analysis with no better or poorer value imo except those running the Majors (and The Players) control it - no bad thing imo.  FWIW, my casual analysis indicates that it rates LIV tournaments pretty low compared to PGAT ones, which doesn't help the points allocated to those LIV players finishing outside the first few places - and that's in addition to the likes of Cam Smith, BdC etc. who are not performing  very well for whatever reason.


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## Slab (Oct 27, 2022)

Isn't it odd that for tens of millions of golfers our ranking is based on our best performances in our last 20 rounds but for elite pros it's closer to their best in their last 200 rounds 

Just give the pros a ranking based on best 8 from 20 and problem solved


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I'm in favour of LIV golfers being awarded points - eventually!
But before that happens, LIV must comply with the many, reasonable, requirements/rules that it currently fails to, primarily as these 'standardise' the assessment of any tournament's worth! Those requirements were published long before LIV started demanding immediate allocation of points and are complied with by all tours that awarded them. So I agree with your description of their tactics as 'bullying' and 'backdoor'!

It seems, to me, that it's really only for the Majors that 'immediate' OWGR points, are critical - and then only for a very limited number of players anyway.  The likes of Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, BdC etc already gualify - through criteria separate to OWGR positions - and will continue to do so for 2-3 years, so they've no problem if it takes the standard 12 month-ish assessment time before the tour is able to allocate points. If that wasn't considered and checked by the other players before they signed up to LIV, then more fool them!! They already have a convenient vehicle, the MENA Tour through which to achieve that - while still operating their 'invitation' series.

As for the alternative ranking - that includes LIV tournaments/players, that's simply a different analysis with no better or poorer value imo except those running the Majors (and The Players) control it - no bad thing imo.  FWIW, my casual analysis indicates that it rates LIV tournaments pretty low compared to PGAT ones, which doesn't help the points allocated to those LIV players finishing outside the first few places - and that's in addition to the likes of Cam Smith, BdC etc. who are not performing  very well for whatever reason.
		
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Agree with a lot if that. Appreciate it doesn't seem fashionable to be understanding of various angles/sides of a debate, but I was agreeing with some of @Imurg 's points yesterday and also some of @Backsticks points.

I'd posted a while back that a point may come where the "rights" of it become secondary to perception. It has been noticeable to me how owgr is increasingly being referred to as the 'PGA Tour rankings' , and somewhat surprisingly DP World supporters and other country/continent supporters have been also having a pop.
Arguably incorrectly, think some of it is just the recent changes removing some historical flaws which make it now more  obvious just how strong the PGAT was.
That said, points are down generally,  Rory received 68 points for his CJ win in 2021, but only 45.6 in 2022.
Not clear if this was something deliberate to further elevate the Players & majors, or a liv impact, or bit if both.
Am actually a bit surprised how much attention is currently on the rankings, from a golf played, liv perspective it doesn't really become relevant again until Feb 2023.
But as @TheBigDraw mentioned it may relate to further line up changes.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 27, 2022)

Interesting if Liv had OWGR tweet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585047329216004098


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 27, 2022)

Golf Channel 
Slowly but surely starting to cover Liv Golf. 
Pretty sure Liv Miami is the 1st time they were present at the press conferences asking questions. 

Golf Channel Podcast
Winners & Losers of Liv Golf Season.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Golf Channel
Slowly but surely starting to cover Liv Golf.
Pretty sure Liv Miami is the 1st time they were present at the press conferences asking questions.

Golf Channel Podcast
Winners & Losers of Liv Golf Season.






Click to expand...

Fairly balanced views as well, good to see.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 27, 2022)

Quite an interesting viewpoint from Bryson explaining why he's still in the lawsuit.

We're in for an interesting few years I think, as the truth is exposed on all sides.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585735708332986368


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			...
Arguably incorrectly, think some of it is just the recent changes removing some historical flaws which make it now more  obvious just how strong the PGAT was.
That said, points are down generally,  Rory received 68 points for his CJ win in 2021, but only 45.6 in 2022.
Not clear if this was something deliberate to further elevate the Players & majors, or a liv impact, or bit if both.
Am actually a bit surprised how much attention is currently on the rankings, from a golf played, liv perspective it doesn't really become relevant again until Feb 2023.
But as @TheBigDraw mentioned it may relate to further line up changes.
		
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Rankings (End of 2022 and Week before tournament) will obviously matter a lot when invites to The Masters are sent out, as Top 50 not otherwise qualified are invited.
Currently, 9 LIV members qualify - for non OWGR ranking criteria - and about the same from current OWGR ranking. It's likely that several - most, or even all of those - are likely to slip out of the OWGR 'Top 50 at End-of-2022' ranking criteria.
I believe the points reduction is simply because of the significantly different - supposedly more accurate - approach to allocating points. It'll take 2 years before that change becomes consistent with 'old' style points allocation drops off. It wouldn't make sense trying to recalc the old-style results. It certainly does seem to elevate the value of performance at majors and The Players! And, indeed, demonstrates how strong the PGAT was - and, imo, still is.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The PGA have released players before,* they chose to ban the LIV players to try and stem the flow of players - it didn't work*, now it looks like their option is to use the OWGR points situation to try and stop the LIV series from taking a significant number more. But, the credibility of the OWGR rankings are already being questioned by plenty of people - and it will become abundantly clear that the OWGR is just an extension of Pelley and Monahans opinions on LIV, given there are already cedible ways of ranking players.
		
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It didn't work? It maybe didn't eliminate the flow entirely, but I suspect it is a primary reason why many players, who have not signed up to LIV, have decided to refuse the offer to line their own pockets? So, it seems like the PGA's response has worked almost perfectly.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Rankings (End of 2022 and Week before tournament) will obviously matter a lot when invites to The Masters are sent out, as Top 50 not otherwise qualified are invited.
Currently, 9 LIV members qualify - for non OWGR ranking criteria - and about the same from current OWGR ranking. It's likely that several - most, or even all of those - are likely to slip out of the OWGR 'Top 50 at End-of-2022' ranking criteria.
I believe the points reduction is simply because of the significantly different - supposedly more accurate - approach to allocating points. It'll take 2 years before that change becomes consistent with 'old' style points allocation drops off. It wouldn't make sense trying to recalc the old-style results. It certainly does seem to elevate the value of performance at majors and The Players! And, indeed, demonstrates how strong the PGAT was - and, imo, still is.
		
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Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Go on then, I'll bite.

For clarification, which tournaments can *you* share that are open to _absolutely anyone_?

The Open Championship might be an obvious choice, *but then players have to have attained a certain standard*, and have to be male! So no, that doesn't fit, not open to anyone.

Am not here to defend liv. The limitations are well known. I am capable of acknowledging it has only been around 4 months though.
There was this stuff....
https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-relegation-qualifying-tournament/?amp=1

🥱 🥱
		
Click to expand...

That may well have been his point? Outside LIV, the PGA Tour and other tour events are all open to absolutely everyone, so long as they prove they are good enough and qualify.

LIV isn't. So, the joke was, I suspect, if you only need to rely on getting an invite to LIV, try and get friendly with GN and get invited. Sure, if you are a bad golfer, good luck with that. But, Ali Dia managed to convince Southampton manager Graeme Souness he was the cousin of George Weah, and was given a contract on the back of it. He was abysmal. So, perhaps if you tell GN you are the half brother of Rory McIlroy, you might have a chance to get on LIV. GN would love to think he is getting one over McIlroy by employing a family member


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?
		
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I'm not sure entirely, however:

The field in the Players between 2011-2017 was evaluated, and the quality of the field, on average, was higer than any of the 4 Majors. This was particularly true for the bottom 25% of the field, as the selection criteria is so stringent.

So, I'm guessing that there was not really a logical reason to award fewer points at the Players in comparison to the Majors?


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## Backsticks (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?
		
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The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed "the 5th major" narrative, as they have control of none of the majors. And as always, when we use the word 'narrative', it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed the 5th major narrative. And as always, when we use the word narrative, it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.
		
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It is the strongest field of any event in the world


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## Backsticks (Oct 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It is the strongest field of any event in the world
		
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Thats more an academic point, though it does apply somewhat to the masters. The reality is that there is nobody not playing in an Open or us open that might win them.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It is the strongest field of any event in the world
		
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Not according to the OWGR


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?
		
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As I understand it OWGR points are awarded to events based on the strength of the field. 
The Players without doubt has the strongest field of any regular season event outside of the majors, some would say possibly stronger than the majors. 
For this reason it rightly gets awarded higher OWGR points. 

Thats not the case now after the Liv disruption because if the likes of your Cam Smiths (Defending Champion) , Dustin Johnsons, BDCs, Brooks Koepka's etc are in the majors they will obviously not be at the Players at Sawgrass.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats more an academic point, though it does apply somewhat to the masters. The reality is that there is nobody not playing in an Open or us open that might win them.
		
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While the Players is separately rated to give 80 points. 80 is the maximum available points for tournaments (outside of majors which is given 100) based on the strength of field. As the Players has the strongest field then it seems natural that they will get the maximum 80 points


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## r0wly86 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Not according to the OWGR 

Click to expand...

The Players is the highest ranking field outside of the majors which are ranked separately. It has a ranking of 806 the next highest non major is strokeplay tournament is the Genesis Invitational at 685 so 121 points lowers, the highest ranked tournament all inclusive is the USPGA which is ranked at 876 70 points above the Players


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			As I understand it OWGR points are awarded to events based on the strength of the field.
The Players without doubt has the strongest field of any regular season event outside of the majors, some would say possibly stronger than the majors.
For this reason it rightly gets awarded higher OWGR points.

Thats not the case now after the Liv disruption because if the likes of your Cam Smiths (Defending Champion) , Dustin Johnsons, BDCs, Brooks Koepka's etc are in the majors they will obviously not be at the Players at Sawgrass.
		
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But if it’s got the strongest field, why does it need a minimum 80 points for the winner, the SOF should dictate the points for the winner, not a discretionary amendment because some people think it should be a major.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

I must say, It’s quite amusing checking all these high ranking OWGR events and seeing most of them are held by LIV players. 

But they’re no loss to the PGAT


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why does The Players even get an elevated field rating in terms of the minimum points for the winner? I get it with the majors, it adds value but is there an explanation anywhere as to why the Players also has a minimum of 80?
		
Click to expand...




Swango1980 said:



			I'm not sure entirely, however:

The field in the Players between 2011-2017 was evaluated, and the quality of the field, on average, was higer than any of the 4 Majors. This was particularly true for the bottom 25% of the field, as the selection criteria is so stringent.

So, I'm guessing that there was not really a logical reason to award fewer points at the Players in comparison to the Majors?
		
Click to expand...




Backsticks said:



			The explanation is lobbying from the PGAT who have long pushed "the 5th major" narrative, as they have control of none of the majors. And as always, when we use the word 'narrative', it means the rest of the world isnt buying it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not certain, but, as the premium tournament of the PGAT, likely to be a combination of both of the above replies and worth the premium. As winner, Cam Smith probably appreciated it though, as would have Lahiri and Casey in 2nd and 3rd. A happy hunting ground for (now) LIV players, as Varner III and Johnson were T6th and T9th resp.
BMW at Wentworth used to get 64 minimum, but that has been dropped - Lowry getting 38-ish for his win.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But if it’s got the strongest field, why does it need a minimum 80 points for the winner, the SOF should dictate the points for the winner, not a discretionary amendment because some people think it should be a major.
		
Click to expand...

Its a HUGE historic prestigious event with a stellar field on an iconic golf course , it rightly gets its points that situates it between the Majors and regular events.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I must say, It’s quite amusing checking all these high ranking OWGR events and seeing most of them are held by LIV players.

But they’re no loss to the PGAT 

Click to expand...

Who has said the loss of the big names isn't a loss?


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## AussieKB (Oct 28, 2022)

So this years Players will not have the Champion defending, not a good look in my opinion, but expect nothing less from the PGA.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I must say, It’s quite amusing checking all these high ranking OWGR events and seeing most of them are held by LIV players.

But they’re no loss to the PGAT 

Click to expand...

If they were no loss to the PGA, this thread wouldn't be anywhere near 398 pages long. Nobody would really care, as they'd either just watch the PGA, LIV or both and not really care which players might be missing from either.


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## r0wly86 (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So this years Players will not have the Champion defending, not a good look in my opinion, but expect nothing less from the PGA.
		
Click to expand...

Someone who knew that leaving for LIV would prevent him from playing on the PGAT, does so anyway, and you blame the PGAT for his lack of attendance.

A bit of backwards thinking


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So this years Players will not have the Champion defending, not a good look in my opinion, but expect nothing less from the PGA.
		
Click to expand...

Personally, I blame Cameron Smith. After all, he is the one that decided to cash in on the easy money. But, fair play to him if it is the money he wants, but he is the one to blame when people like you, AussieKB, are sad when you cannot see the Champion defend his trophy. On a positive note, however, you get to watch him on the LIV tour (if you are a fan), and in the Australian Open (in case he wasn't going to play if LIV never happened)


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I must say, It’s quite amusing checking all these high ranking OWGR events and seeing most of them are held by LIV players.

But they’re no loss to the PGAT 

Click to expand...

If you check the charts in the Roboptv tweet of a page or 2 back, the 'including LIV' (middle/green) column indicates that most have gone downhill since joining LIV!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Who has said the loss of the big names isn't a loss?
		
Click to expand...

So they’re not all has beens, journeymen and random golfers that nobody has ever heard of like they were a few days ago then? 

Not saying you’ve claimed that, but it definitely has been stated on this thread numerous times.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			If you check the charts in the Roboptv tweet of a page or 2 back, the 'including LIV' (middle/green) column indicates that, apart from Johnson, they've gone downhill since joining LIV!
		
Click to expand...

Presumably because the events they’ve played in have been won primarily by DJ.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So they’re not all has beens, journeymen and random golfers that nobody has ever heard of like they were a few days ago then?

Not saying you’ve claimed that, but it definitely has been stated on this thread numerous times.
		
Click to expand...

Selective memory again. Perhaps you need to be reminded that the LIV field is made up of:


a small selection of quality golfers
A chunk of has beens
Many relatively awful golfers, nobodies
A selection of good youngsters, who may have potential, but we may never know because they are only up against generally very weak fields


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So this years Players will not have the Champion defending, not a good look in my opinion, but expect nothing less from the PGA.
		
Click to expand...

And I can tell you right now what the biggest headline will be going into the event. 
More exposure for LIV


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Selective memory again. Perhaps you need to be reminded that the LIV field is made up of:


a small selection of quality golfers
A chunk of has beens
Many relatively awful golfers, nobodies
A selection of good youngsters, who may have potential, but we may never know because they are only up against generally very weak fields


Click to expand...

A bloke in his 60’s has just shot an 89 in a PGA tour event…..


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A bloke in his 60’s has just shot an 89 in a PGA tour event…..
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping to keep that quiet, 😂


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Presumably because the events they’ve played in *have been won primarily by DJ*.
		
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Er...How many has he actually won?


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## AussieKB (Oct 28, 2022)

Surely everyone who is honest wants the best players in the world to play the Majors.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Er...How many has he actually won?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah , I didn’t phrase that well, but the reason DJ has faired well in those datagolf rankings is because he has performed consistently well in general, where other players (like Smith for example) haven’t.,


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Surely everyone who is honest wants the best players in the world to play the Majors.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they do, and the Ryder Cup. You’d have to be pretty spiteful to think otherwise.


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah , I didn’t phrase that well...
		
Click to expand...


His consistency is why he won the Individual with a round to play.
Arguably the biggest loss for PGAT.


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Surely everyone who is honest wants the best players in the world to play the Majors.
		
Click to expand...

For both US and 'The' Opens, that's (still) possible!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A bloke in his 60’s has just shot an 89 in a PGA tour event…..
		
Click to expand...

Great, comparing your beloved LIV to the Butterfield Bermuda Championship.

For the sake of balance, out of a field of 132, there appear to be 10 Sponsor Exemptions and 1 Commissioner's exemption, meaning 121 players have had to qualify by other means. I've personally no issues with having a limited number of invites in any competition, it gives a chance for the locals to see some local players for one. The guy in his 60's is from Bermuda I believe. I know nothing about him, but perhaps he is quite big in Bermuda.

Remind me, do LIV have around 121 players per event that have had to qualify without being invited?


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## AussieKB (Oct 28, 2022)

so on his home course he shoots what ?????
good luck to him getting a  start, but the bottom line should be having the best players available.


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## Aztecs27 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And I can tell you right now what the biggest headline will be going into the event.
More exposure for LIV

Click to expand...

I don't think Greg Norman reads the forum mate, he's probably not going to give you a job - despite your apparent best efforts to be recruited.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Great, comparing your beloved LIV to the Butterfield Bermuda Championship.

For the sake of balance, out of a field of 132, there appear to be 10 Sponsor Exemptions and 1 Commissioner's exemption, meaning 121 players have had to qualify by other means. I've personally no issues with having a limited number of invites in any competition, it gives a chance for the locals to see some local players for one. The guy in his 60's is from Bermuda I believe. I know nothing about him, but perhaps he is quite big in Bermuda.

Remind me, do LIV have around 121 players per event that have had to qualify without being invited?
		
Click to expand...

It’s still a PGA tour event is it not?

Just like last weeks invitational no cut event…..

LIV isn’t perfect, but the vast msjority of PGA tour events are not worth watching unless you have a vested interest. I guess they’ve got to get the money in from wherever they can tho…


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That may well have been his point? Outside LIV, *the PGA Tour and other tour events are all open to absolutely everyone, so long as they prove they are good enough and qualify*.

LIV isn't. So, the joke was, I suspect, if you only need to rely on getting an invite to LIV, try and get friendly with GN and get invited. Sure, if you are a bad golfer, good luck with that. But, Ali Dia managed to convince Southampton manager Graeme Souness he was the cousin of George Weah, and was given a contract on the back of it. He was abysmal. So, perhaps if you tell GN you are the half brother of Rory McIlroy, you might have a chance to get on LIV. GN would love to think he is getting one over McIlroy by employing a family member 

Click to expand...

Yesh thanks for trying to work it out, unfortunately I don't have 'the gift' and could only go based on what was written.

I'd still suggest the part in bold is inaccurate,  in fact I think you prove that in this post...
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2561440

Invitations have been part of professional golf for many decades, it has never been this pure absolute sporting perfection that is suddenly being held up. Not saying that shouldn't be the goal, but be realistic.

Also it is worth calling out, as a startup it appeared to be a scramble to find players willing to take the risk. Are you really saying back in June GN that was turning lots of players away?


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## Aztecs27 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s still a PGA tour event is it not?

Just like last weeks invitational no cut event…..

*LIV isn’t perfect, but the vast msjority of PGA tour events are not worth watching unless you have a vested interest*. I guess they’ve got to get the money in from wherever they can tho…
		
Click to expand...

Or to put it another way...."PGA Tour isn't perfect, but the vast majority of LIV tour events are not worth watching unless you have a vested interest"

I've tried, but watching a bunch of overpaid egomaniacs play social golf really doesn't push my buttons.


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			A bloke in his 60’s has just shot an 89 in a PGA tour event…..
		
Click to expand...

So what! He almost certainly won't make the cut then! Unlike.....


AussieKB said:



			so on his home course he shoots what ?????
good luck to him getting a  start, but the bottom line should be having the best players available.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to bet that it IS his home course!

Good to see Tommy-2-gloves playing in it, though he WD-ed. Haven't seen mention of him for a while - with last ref wasn't complimentary!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So this years Players will not have the Champion defending, not a good look in my opinion, but expect nothing less from the PGA.
		
Click to expand...

Well the current champion clearly isn't bothered about defending it as it is his actions that have brought this about.  Dress it up anyway you like but there's only one person to blame for the fact that Cameron Smith can't defend the Players Championship next year, and that's Cameron Smith.


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## Aztecs27 (Oct 28, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well the current champion clearly isn't bothered about defending it as it is his actions that have brought this about.  Dress it up anyway you like but there's only one person to blame for the fact that Cameron Smith can't defend the Players Championship next year, and that's Cameron Smith.
		
Click to expand...


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## AussieKB (Oct 28, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well the current champion clearly isn't bothered about defending it as it is his actions that have brought this about.  Dress it up anyway you like but there's only one person to blame for the fact that Cameron Smith can't defend the Players Championship next year, and that's Cameron Smith.
		
Click to expand...

Haters are going to hate no mater what....


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yesh thanks for trying to work it out, unfortunately I don't have 'the gift' and could only go based on what was written.

I'd still suggest the part in bold is inaccurate,  in fact I think you prove that in this post...
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2561440

Invitations have been part of professional golf for many decades, it has never been this pure absolute sporting perfection that is suddenly being held up. Not saying that shouldn't be the goal, but be realistic.

Also it is worth calling out, as a startup it appeared to be a scramble to find players willing to take the risk. Are you really saying back in June GN that was turning lots of players away?
		
Click to expand...

But, the bit in bold was correct. The PGA events ARE open to absolutely everybody, so long as they are good enough to qualify. Just because some spots may get taken up by invites, doesn't make that statement untrue. I didn't say every single place in a field of over 130 must qualify, just that if you are good enough, you will qualify. Perhaps I should have enforced this with - the vast majority of spots are open to absolutely anyone if they are good enough


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not sure entirely, however:

*The field in the Players between 2011-2017 was evaluated, and the quality of the field, on average, was higer than any of the 4 Majors*. This was particularly true for the bottom 25% of the field, as the selection criteria is so stringent.

So, I'm guessing that there was not really a logical reason to award fewer points at the Players in comparison to the Majors?
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in a link for that if you have it

For 2022, The Players was only higher than the Masters.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2525440


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Haters are going to hate no mater what....
		
Click to expand...

Great argument...


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			I'd be interested in a link for that if you have it

For 2022, The Players was only higher than the Masters.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2525440

Click to expand...

https://practical-golf.com/players-championship/


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			But, the bit in bold was correct. The PGA events ARE open to absolutely everybody, so long as they are good enough to qualify. Just because some spots may get taken up by invites, doesn't make that statement untrue. I didn't say every single place in a field of over 130 must qualify, just that if you are good enough, you will qualify. Perhaps I should have enforced this with - the vast majority of spots are open to absolutely anyone if they are good enough
		
Click to expand...

I know what you are trying to say but will respectively disagree. The "enforced" bit is better worded, yes.

As a reminder though - the person in question was actually female  -    "open to absolutely everybody"  

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2560787


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			I know what you are trying to say but will respectively disagree. The "enforced" bit is better worded, yes.

As a reminder though - the person in question was actually female  -    "open to absolutely everybody"  

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2560787

Click to expand...

Yes, that bit came in a secondary post, which of course made the original irrelevant. I was simply responding generally, from a male participation perspective. Whether females should be allowed to play in any is a completely different topic


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well the current champion clearly isn't bothered about defending it as it is his actions that have brought this about.  Dress it up anyway you like but there's only one person to blame for the fact that Cameron Smith can't defend the Players Championship next year, and that's Cameron Smith.
		
Click to expand...

On the basis the 'battle lines' were already well drawn when he went, then have to agree with this. Although there are often shades of grey between the black & white..


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## Ian_George (Oct 28, 2022)

IainP said:



			As thread has morphed into general professional golf admin etc., had a look for 2022 ogwr, strength of field calcs

The Open        871
US Open          830
US PGA            876
Masters           785

Players            806

The OGWR have a rule in place that the winner receives 100 points for the 'majors', irrespective of field.
Also the Players receives 80 points.

Apparently these caveats remain when the system changes next month.

The PGAT have been banging the "5th major" for some time now, and can see based on the field that they may be privately irked by the Masters love in.

However, as mentioned previously, the current ban position _may_ hurt the Players field next year.
		
Click to expand...

Somehow this post from July popped up as 'new'!
But to comment on the Masters v Players difference in Field Strength....Remember that previous Masters winners get lifetime exemption. The inclusion of uncompetitive previous winners - such as Sandy Lyle - would likely distort the field strength. The SOF numbers DO suggest The Players '5th Major' status could well be justified.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Haters are going to hate no mater what....
		
Click to expand...

Really? I’d hoped for better than that tired old retort. 

It’s no more business of mine where Cam Smith earns his coin than it is Cam Smith’s business where I earn mine.  And I haven’t got any issue with him going to LIV; it’s entirely his choice and I understand why some of them go.  I’d prefer to see him more regularly but I respect his right to earn his money from whichever employer he sees fit. 

But we both need to understand our terms of employment; I understand that if I decide to go and work for someone else then my current employer has the right to terminate my contract and ban me from his premises, maybe even give me a bad reference. A number of LIV players seem to think that this doesn’t apply to them. I’m not a hater, I just have a slightly better grasp of reality than some of those (and I’m not suggesting that Smith is one of these) trying to have their cake and eat it. 

The situation you are trying to defend is akin to a man ignoring the warning signs and sticking his hand in a lion’s cage then blaming the lion for biting it.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

I might be wrong but I dont think I have ever heard Cameron Smith say that he should be at Sawgrass defending his title?


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## Beezerk (Oct 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I might be wrong but I dont think I have ever heard Cameron Smith say that he should be at Sawgrass defending his title?
		
Click to expand...

More fake news invented to bolster an argument 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			I might be wrong but I dont think I have ever heard Cameron Smith say that he should be at Sawgrass defending his title?
		
Click to expand...

Probably not. No one was debating that point with Cameron Smith though, they were debating it with AussieKB


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



https://practical-golf.com/players-championship/

Click to expand...

Thanks
Interestingly they quoted Data Golf  - which is the site a frequent poster has shared a couple of times 
So in part this may be about who is correct, OWGR, or Data Golf  (reality neither are, they are just interpretations)

I looked back at 2018 on OWGR just to see how different it was a few years back
2018
US PGA   912
The Open 902
US Open   855
    Players  854
Masters     794

And pasted the 2022 back in
2022
US PGA    876
The Open 871
US Open   830
    Players  806
Masters    785


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Somehow this post from July popped up as 'new'!
But to comment on the Masters v Players difference in Field Strength....Remember that previous Masters winners get lifetime exemption. The inclusion of uncompetitive previous winners - such as Sandy Lyle - would likely distort the field strength. The SOF numbers DO suggest The Players '5th Major' status could well be justified.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I think many know why the Masters is the 'weakest'  - they do their own thing. believe the gambling fraternity refer to it as the easiest one to bet on.
Will be interesting to see the order in 2023 though - a few unknowns still.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Great, comparing your beloved LIV to the Butterfield Bermuda Championship.

For the sake of balance, out of a field of 132, there appear to be 10 Sponsor Exemptions and 1 Commissioner's exemption, meaning 121 players have had to qualify by other means. I've personally no issues with having a limited number of invites in any competition, it gives a chance for the locals to see some local players for one. The guy in his 60's is from Bermuda I believe. I know nothing about him, but perhaps he is quite big in Bermuda.

Remind me, do LIV have around 121 players per event that have had to qualify without being invited?
		
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%.....But trying to explain sponsor exemptions to LIV fans is futile.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

Wouldn't be tatally surprised to see Phil M take out Cam Smith tonight.
Last 2 events PM has been playing a lot better with a couple of destructive holes killing his score that won't be as penalising in Matchplay. 

If I was putting my mortgage on it though I'd be defo backing the  wispy moustached Aussie.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Haters are going to hate no mater what....
		
Click to expand...

How very grown up


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			I don't think Greg Norman reads the forum mate, he's probably not going to give you a job - despite your apparent best efforts to be recruited. 

Click to expand...


To be fair, there were a few on here that were that convinced I was on the LIV payroll a few months back, they got the admins to message me asking if that was the case.

I might see if I can volunteer at next year UK event, that's about as close as I'll ever get. ;-)


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## Backsticks (Oct 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Haters are going to hate no mater what....
		
Click to expand...

No, the hate for LIV as a negative element for professional golf entertainment has been well explained here and cogent reasons presented several times. The cheap 'no mater what' jibe suggests the poor reception for the LIV come from a brainless rejection of it for no reason. But that not the case. And the jibe suggests a lack of solid ground to reject the criticisms in a more reasoned and grown up manner. The overall position, whatever the problems or weaknesses of other tours, is the LIV has added nothing, but created a split in the top ranks that reduces the quality of golf competition and entertainment provided to fans.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 28, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, the hate for LIV as a negative element for professional golf entertainment has been well explained here and cogent reasons presented several times. The cheap 'no mater what' jibe suggests the poor reception for the LIV come from a brainless rejection of it for no reason. But that not the case. And the jibe suggests a lack of solid ground to reject the criticisms in a more reasoned and grown up manner. The overall position, whatever the problems or weaknesses of other tours, is the LIV has added nothing, but created a split in the top ranks that reduces the quality of golf competition and entertainment provided to fans.
		
Click to expand...

Bottom line is this Backsticks, forums are generally occupied by the older demographic. This forum will be no different. Old people generally aren't happy with LIV - but to suggest it has added nothing is a complete fallacy. For me, and many others, it's a welcome change, and indeed an improvement on  a LOT of what the PGA and DP serve up.
Twitter get's mocked on here, yet it represents a platform where there is a lot more support for LIV, the younger you go with the demographic, the more support you find, and this is very important, because it means father time is on LIV's side. If the PGA tour wants to portray itself as something that appeals to 65 year old men, absolutely fine. Those people have the time to sit and watch 4 day, 72 hole tournaments if they so wish - younger people do not, and LIV satsifies that with it's shorter format.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

Professional Matchplay golf is so good and we rarely get to see it .
Team matchplay golf is even rarer.

Varner currently taking out Brooks and he has the bit between his teeth to prove a point 4up.
Mickleson currently 1up on Cam Smith which many may be surprised at
Poulter wants to keep his impressive pro matchplay record intact , 2up on Kevin Na
Stenson/Horsefield 4up in their 4somes
Think Poults , Stensons and Westwoods experience of singles and foursomes team play could stand the Majestiks in good stead 

The Liv team format thats looked pretty lame so far finally makes sense with this team final and makes for great viewing.

I know a lot on here dont like Liv but just give this a chance and enjoy some great matchplay golf on a iconic golf course.
If not then thats fine as well by the way.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			To be fair, there were a few on here that were that convinced I was on the LIV payroll a few months back, they got the admins to message me asking if that was the case.

I might see if I can volunteer at next year UK event, that's about as close as I'll ever get. ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Actually the Admins asked the question themselves as there was a growing undercurrent that nobody could be so evangelistic without benefiting in some way. 

Obviously we needed to know as if there was an interest, it needed to be declared.

Happy to confirm that you have confirmed that you are not on the Liv payroll  👍


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 28, 2022)

Wolff lost to Leishman 
Tringale/wiesburger win 4somes.
1.1

All comes down to Phil M v Cam Smith
All Square with 3 to play... 

Phil is loving the challenge , could go either way.. 
Great match with teammates coming in to support on the sidelines.


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## JamesR (Oct 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Actually the Admins asked the question themselves as there was a growing undercurrent that nobody could be so evangelistic without benefiting in some way.

Obviously we needed to know as if there was an interest, it needed to be declared.

Happy to confirm that you have confirmed that you are not on the Liv payroll  👍
		
Click to expand...

Just angling for some freebies I reckon


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## BiMGuy (Oct 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Actually the Admins asked the question themselves as there was a growing undercurrent that nobody could be so evangelistic without benefiting in some way.

Obviously we needed to know as if there was an interest, it needed to be declared.

Happy to confirm that you have confirmed that you are not on the Liv payroll  👍
		
Click to expand...

Did anyone actually believe he was on the payroll? 

He was obviously copy and pasting a lot from twitter and some of his longer posts were clearly written by someone else. But on the payroll? That would be an interesting marketing strategy.

Probably more like he’s hoping to generate a bit of traffic to his YouTube or somehow get someone to do some editing for him.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 28, 2022)

Lets get away from this narrative please

Mel is  unpaid & unaffiliated to LIV, hes just a rather massive fanboy, with no other outlet for his enthusiasm than us 
.
I know it sounds bonkers and many (including me fail to see the attraction), but he is genuine in his views 
So lets not play the man


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## pokerjoke (Oct 28, 2022)

Just watched Liv whilst layed up in bed.
Thoroughly enjoyed it.
No adverts suits me fine.
Big fan


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## AussieKB (Oct 29, 2022)

Enjoyed the LIV at the Blue Monster a course the PGA should never have left, just like The Open leaving Turnberry and it not being on the Open rota because of politics instead of just sport.


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## PieMan (Oct 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Enjoyed the LIV at the Blue Monster a course the PGA should never have left, just like The Open leaving Turnberry and it not being on the Open rota because of politics instead of just sport.
		
Click to expand...

LIV and Trump are the perfect match 👌


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 29, 2022)

PieMan said:



			LIV and Trump are the perfect match 👌

Click to expand...

He's a businessman with a huge interest in golf, and owns some of the best golf courses in the world.
LIV is in the golf business.
They are a perfect match. 

He's also the current favourite to be the next president of the USA.....


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Enjoyed the LIV at the Blue Monster a course the PGA should never have left, just like The Open leaving Turnberry and it not being on the Open rota because of politics instead of just sport.
		
Click to expand...

It was the sponsors who left.
So the PGA tour had to find someone to sponsor the event, which was only possible with a change of venue, to a non-Trump course.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's a businessman with a huge interest in golf, and owns some of the best golf courses in the world.
LIV is in the golf business.
They are a perfect match. 

He's also the current favourite to be the next president of the USA.....
		
Click to expand...

Pieman wasn't being sarcastic you know, he really meant it when he said they are the perfect match. So, no need for you to counter his statement by agreeing with it


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## fenwayrich (Oct 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's a businessman with a huge interest in golf, and owns some of the best golf courses in the world.
LIV is in the golf business.
They are a perfect match. 

He's also the current favourite to be the next president of the USA.....
		
Click to expand...

I've always thought that golf can only continue to exist if the participants act with integrity, honesty and decency.

It might be argued that both Donald Trump and the LIV organisation are somewhat lacking in these essential qualities.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 29, 2022)

Really enjoyed the Liv golf last night. 
This team format really works in this final shootout and pro matchplay is always great to watch. 
Love that they have thrown a foursomes match into the format rather than 4 singles matches. 

Should be even better tonight with the top 4 seeds joining the fold. 
The Cleeks are the only team that's looks weak mainly down to Martin Kaymer having to pull out with an injury. 

My Predictions are

4 Aces Beat Cleeks
Stingers Beat Crushers
Punch Beat Fireballs
Majesticks Beat Smash


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586149165494460416


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## PieMan (Oct 29, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Pieman wasn't being sarcastic you know, he really meant it when he said they are the perfect match. So, no need for you to counter his statement by agreeing with it 

Click to expand...


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## AussieKB (Oct 29, 2022)

I agree the next POTUS and LIV


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 29, 2022)

With the Donald obviously being in Livs corner.
Would Trump becoming President again be bad news for the PGA Tour???


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## cleveland52 (Oct 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			With the Donald obviously being in Livs corner.
Would Trump becoming President again be bad news for the PGA Tour???
		
Click to expand...

Not really. It would only mean that anyone associated with 45 would have to lawyer up....LOL!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 29, 2022)

Encouraging words re: future Opens from Martin Slumbers.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			With the Donald obviously being in Livs corner.
Would Trump becoming President again be bad news for the PGA Tour???
		
Click to expand...

Not sure it would be bad news, but I can’t see it being good news.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 29, 2022)

Expect the Golf Monthly article to be published in this in the next hour;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586376933415292929


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## Backsticks (Oct 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He's a businessman with a huge interest in golf, and owns some of the best golf courses in the world.
LIV is in the golf business.
They are a perfect match. 

He's also the current favourite to be the next president of the USA.....
		
Click to expand...

They are matched well. Its surprising LIV is adding to their other unsavoury associations by their links to Trump. If gaining acceptance, respectability, and avoiding controversy were their goal, you would have expected the Saudis to have nothing to do with him.


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## TheDiablo (Oct 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Expect the Golf Monthly article to be published in this in the next hour;-)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586376933415292929

Click to expand...

Wait, what? I thought there was an army of corporations, apparel providers and equipment manufacturers falling over themselves to own a team?

What’s happened there then? Greg has be so honest to date


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## PieMan (Oct 29, 2022)

TheDiablo said:



			Wait, what? I thought there was an army of corporations, apparel providers and equipment manufacturers falling over themselves to own a team?

What’s happened there then? Greg has be so honest to date
		
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Yeah I want to see the Taylormade Technos - a new roster of players and equipment every 2 months!!


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 29, 2022)

Rumour is The R&A are going to award Open championship places to Liv tour/Liv Golfers 🤔🤔🤔

If true you would think the other majors will follow??? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586414171586822145


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## PieMan (Oct 29, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Rumour is The R&A are going to award Open championship places to Liv tour/Liv Golfers 🤔🤔🤔

If true you would think the other majors will follow???


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586414171586822145

Click to expand...

Well past Champions already qualify, so there's 3 to LIV players.

Other Major champions also get a limited time exemption, so that's another 3 or 4.

And then there will be some LIV players who will probably get in on their OWGR.

And then the others will need to go through Open qualifying.

So there's the pathway I imagine.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 29, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Well past Champions already qualify, so there's 3 to LIV players.

Other Major champions also get a limited time exemption, so that's another 3 or 4.

And then there will be some LIV players who will probably get in on their OWGR.

And then the others will need to go through Open qualifying.

So there's the pathway I imagine.
		
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The only thing that would change your path to the majors for LIV player are the lawsuits. If the Major org. are entangled in legal action, it may not be prudent to have any of the player play.

We'll see.


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## Backsticks (Oct 29, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The only thing that would change your path to the majors for LIV player are the lawsuits. If the Major org. are entangled in legal action, it may not be prudent to have any of the player play.

We'll see.
		
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No, as proposed before, the majors, whose existence depends on their prestige of being THE BEST, and who have no skin the in the game in a commercial and power spat between US and Saudi rivals, will find a way in for any LIV golfer who has the game, but not otherwise gaining entry. A new path or criteria will be devised. For two reasons : they have no reason not to, and, they will not shoot their own credibility in the the foot for abslutely no gain to themselves. Even the USPGA Champsionship, with its link to its genaeological offspring PGAT, as the weakest major (strongest field protestations notwithstanding, there isnt a golfer on the planet who dreams of winning it before an Open, US, or Masters), cannot indulge any favours to the PGAT that would devalue it. The quoted crumbs are just the beginning of a breakout of that reality from the majors into the public sphere.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, as proposed before, the majors, whose existence depends on their prestige of being THE BEST, and who have no skin the in the game in a commercial and power spat between US and Saudi rivals, will find a way in for any LIV golfer who has the game, but not otherwise gaining entry. A new path or criteria will be devised. For two reasons : they have no reason not to, and, they will not shoot their own credibility in the the foot for abslutely no gain to themselves. Even the USPGA Champsionship, with its link to its genaeological offspring PGAT, as the weakest major (strongest field protestations notwithstanding, there isnt a golfer on the planet who dreams of winning it before an Open, US, or Masters), cannot indulge any favours to the PGAT that would devalue it. The quoted crumbs are just the beginning of a breakout of that reality from the majors into the public sphere.
		
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Makes no difference to me if LIV players get to play in the majors. No one that I know will question the major's credibility if any particular player is not there. The Tournaments may not want the distractions and who could blame them.


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## BrianM (Oct 29, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Makes no difference to me if LIV players get to play in the majors. No one that I know will question the major's credibility if any particular player is not there. The Tournaments may not want the distractions and who could blame them.
		
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So because it makes no difference to you and your pals it won't affect the major's credibility, all right then!!


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## Ian_George (Oct 29, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The only thing that would change your path to the majors for LIV player are the lawsuits. If the Major org. are entangled in legal action, it may not be prudent to have any of the player play.

We'll see.
		
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Well, Summary Judgement (where PGAT argue that LIV has no chance of success and a trial is not required) is scheduled for July 2023, with actual trial scheduled for January 2024. So no change from present - that LIV players are slipping down OWGR rankings and won't qualify by that route, though several qualify by other criteria.
As has already been posted, both Opens have existing qualifying methods that would allow LIV players to qualify if they want/need.


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## Ian_George (Oct 29, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So because it makes no difference to you and your pals it won't affect the major's credibility, all right then!!
		
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I think you missed/ignored the words 'to me'! t seems that it does 'to you'.
To me, it won't have any effect on credibility of majors, as it was the players choices to join LIV. For those LIV-ers not already qualified, there are other ways to qualify for both Opens available.


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## BrianM (Oct 29, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I think you missed/ignored the words 'to me'! t seems that it does 'to you'.
To me, it won't have any effect on credibility of majors, as it was the players choices to join LIV. For those LIV-ers not already qualified, there are other ways to qualify for both Opens available.
		
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I've not missed anything, I'm well aware of the context he meant, which is meaningless.


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## Ian_George (Oct 29, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I've not missed anything, I'm well aware of the context he meant, *which is meaningless*.
		
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To you!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 29, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I've not missed anything, I'm well aware of the context he meant, which is meaningless.
		
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Fair enough, but perhaps the context of your post is meaningless to him?


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## cleveland52 (Oct 30, 2022)

BrianM said:



			So because it makes no difference to you and your pals it won't affect the major's credibility, all right then!!
		
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LOL! lack of LIV player will not affect the majors credibility. No one cares if Phill and associate play in the majors.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

So in summary, LIV has failed because they haven't recruited ALL the top players, but the Majors wont be affected if they didn't have ALL the top players.

Got it.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So in summary, LIV has failed because they haven't recruited ALL the top players, but the Majors wont be affected if they didn't have ALL the top players.

Got it.
		
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ALL? 

Again, your summary / interpretation of other peoples comments is embarrassingly poor.

If LIV had recruited most of the worlds best players, except maybe a handful, that would have probably satisfied part of LIV's strategy. However, LIV have not come anywhere close to signing all these top players. Not even close.

So don't start trying to claim that non LIV fans are now trying to say it is a failure simply because ALL top players haven't signed. That has never ever been an argument.

Mind you, just imagine how prestigious a Major would feel with JUST the 48 LIV players in the field. Now that would be a disaster for any of the Majors.


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## OnTour (Oct 30, 2022)

last nights match play was like watching paint dry for me, along with a semi final with 8 teams then a final with 4.   no more interesting than the PGA which is boring.  I guess I play golf watching has never been my thing unless it's the majors on great courses.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*So in summary, LIV has failed because they haven't recruited ALL the top players*, but the Majors wont be affected if they didn't have ALL the top players.

Got it.
		
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1. Where has anyone stated LIV has failed. 2. There are ways into the Majors other than OWGR ranking that are available to LIV players.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			1. Where has anyone stated LIV has failed. 2. There are ways into the Majors other than OWGR ranking that are available to LIV players.
		
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I'm generalising. Posts have been made in recent days about LIV failing to secure enough of the top players, and on 2, of course there are, but securing a place will now be more difficult for some of them, so we are going to see weakened fields in The Majors.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

OnTour said:



			last nights match play was like watching paint dry for me, along with a semi final with 8 teams then a final with 4.   no more interesting than the PGA which is boring.  I guess I play golf watching has never been my thing unless it's the majors on great courses.
		
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Interesting (nice) to see BdC's decision re opponents backfire! Otherwise, indeed a bit dull.


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm generalising. Posts have been made in recent days about LIV failing to secure enough of the top players, and on 2, of course there are, but securing a place will now be more difficult for some of them, so we are going to see weakened fields in The Majors.
		
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If LIV players aren't good enough to qualify then are they good enough to play..?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If LIV players aren't good enough to qualify then are they good enough to play..?
		
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Don't know, maybe we should do away with OWGR points and have a full qualification process for all?


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm generalising. Posts have been made in recent days about LIV failing to secure enough of the top players, and on 2, of course there are, but securing a place will now be more difficult for some of them, so we are going to see weakened fields in The Majors.
		
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1. No! You are exaggerating at best or simply telling untruths! 2. Any 'weakened' fields are actually caused by the LIV players - who knew or should have known the likely consequences before they signed. I have zero sympathy for them!


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Don't know, maybe we should do away with OWGR points and have a full qualification process for all?
		
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So now you don't want ranking points....


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So now you don't want ranking points....

Click to expand...

It would be fairer than what we currently have, would it not?

Plenty seem quite content for LIV players not to have ranking points....


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It would be fairer than what we currently have, would it not?

Plenty seem quite content for LIV players not to have ranking points....
		
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But then how do we know who the best players are..?
And, for God's sake, you know why they're not getting ranking points....the record's stuck..


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			1. No! You are exaggerating at best or simply telling untruths! 2. Any 'weakened' fields are actually caused by the LIV players - who knew or should have known the likely consequences before they signed. I have zero sympathy for them!
		
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Post 7824



			While their target of tempting away the worlds best golfers failed,
		
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As for resolving the dilemma of weakened fields in Majors, the resolution to that isn't in the hands of the LIV players.


Most people want to see the best players in the best competitions (The Majors). Right now, that scenario is up in the air.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm generalising. Posts have been made in recent days about LIV failing to secure enough of the top players, and on 2, of course there are, but securing a place will now be more difficult for some of them, so we are going to see weakened fields in The Majors.
		
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Assuming those LiV players with exemptions are allowed to continue to play in the majors. Which other LiV players would add to the quality of the field?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			But then how do we know who the best players are..?
And, for God's sake, you know why *they're not getting ranking points*....the record's stuck..
		
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So, how do you know who the best players are then?


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So, how do you know who the best players are then?
		
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The best players in the world are decided by...the OWGR. 
Those players who feature on the ranking are deemed the best players 
Those who chose to go and p,ay the exhibition circuit that doesn't currently attract points are still on the OWGR but are slipping down the ladder as their form of Golf doesn't match the requirements to be awarded points.
Once it does, they will be awarded points and can try to improve their ranking.
It's all very simple.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Post 7824
		
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Completely irrelevant to my point!


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The best players in the world are decided by...the OWGR.
Those players who feature on the ranking are deemed the best players...
		
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Add to that, any who qualify via any available specific qualification process.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



*The best players in the world are decided by...the OWGR.*
Those players who feature on the ranking are deemed the best players
Those who chose to go and p,ay the exhibition circuit that doesn't currently attract points are still on the OWGR but are slipping down the ladder as their form of Golf doesn't match the requirements to be awarded points.
Once it does, they will be awarded points and can try to improve their ranking.
It's all very simple.
		
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No they're not mate, not anymore. Those rankings rate the best players in the world, excluding LIV players, who are udoubtedly some of the best players in the world.
There are alternatives to OWGR that are now more accurate in ranking ALL the players. OWGR is now simply a collection of data for selecting who can access The Majors.

If I wanted to place a bet, based on OWGR ratings, as to who will win next years Open championship, it would not be accurate, would it?


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No they're not mate, not anymore. Those rankings rate the best players in the world, excluding LIV players, who are udoubtedly some of the best players in the world.
There are alternatives to OWGR that are now more accurate in ranking ALL the players. OWGR is now simply a collection of data for selecting who can access The Majors.

If I wanted to place a bet, based on OWGR ratings, as to who will win next years Open championship, it would not be accurate, would it?
		
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So....are your LIV players no longer on the OWGR?


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So....are your LIV players no longer on the OWGR?
		
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Of course they are - but the OWGR isn't accurate anymore.


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course they are - but the OWGR isn't accurate anymore.
		
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Because your boys have chosen to go and play the exhibition circuit that doesn't attract points...and even thos that come back to play ranking events don't seem to play well enough to get many...
Follow the rules, address the criteria, get points everyone's happy.
They've only got themselves and Greg Norman to blame.....


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## AussieKB (Oct 30, 2022)

All bow to the PGA, at least Martin Slumbers is showing he has a pair.


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## Backsticks (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



*The best players in the world are decided by...the OWGR.*
Those players who feature on the ranking are deemed the best players
Those who chose to go and p,ay the exhibition circuit that doesn't currently attract points are still on the OWGR but are slipping down the ladder as their form of Golf doesn't match the requirements to be awarded points.
Once it does, they will be awarded points and can try to improve their ranking.
It's all very simple.
		
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Thats how it used to be. But is no longer valid. Cam Smith did not lose his skills because he no longer plays comoetitions the owgr gives him points for.
The OWGR doesnt 'decide'. It is a measuring tool, that correctly setup, reflects to us who the world best players are. What your highlighted sentence now says, is that the owgr are no longer capable of doing that. A ranking system must not be part of the politics.
A 54 tournament doesnt merit the points of an elevated pgat or anything like that. LIV has so far failed to recruit enough top golfers. But it doesnt deserve none either.
The owgr is broken. If it were an independent body, it would fix itself. But at the moment, it is a propaganda machine, and no longer worth consulting.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			All bow to the *PGA*, at least Martin Slumbers is showing he has a pair.
		
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Don't you mean the PGA Tour! I'm certain that other heads of Major running organisations on he OWGR Board are of a similar mind to Slumbers - but won't be prepared to deviate from the standard assessment process!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Because your boys have chosen to go and play the exhibition circuit that doesn't attract points...and even thos that come back to play ranking events don't seem to play well enough to get many...
Follow the rules, address the criteria, get points everyone's happy.
They've only got themselves and Greg Norman to blame.....
		
Click to expand...


It's quite clear from yesterdays comments that LIV feel like they have met the criteria. I did say a few weeks back, that it will probaby end up going down the route of a legal challenge, and nothing has changed to alter that view.
However, if there are credible systems out there that assess players on all tours, you have to ask the question why the OWGR is so restrictive..


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## Backsticks (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's quite clear from yesterdays comments that LIV feel like they have met the criteria. I did say a few weeks back, that it will probaby end up going down the route of a legal challenge, and nothing has changed to alter that view.
However, if there are credible systems out there that assess players on all tours, you have to ask the question why the OWGR is so restrictive..
		
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The criteria are obsolete. Owgr is restrictive because it is not an entirely disinterrested assessment. It suits some of its parties to see liv fail, and so to use, or at least not change too quickly, the current setup of non recognition of liv events as worthy of eligible for points, as a lever to discourage defectors.
C'mon, Dustin Johnson is the 30th best player in the world ? Like. Seriously. Nobody is buying that. So OWGR today is clearly wrong, and discredited by its slowness to react.
The four majors, while party to owgr know this too. But are not under specific pressure in the short term. If LIV had poached half of the top 40 players or something like that, and Cantlay, Schauffele, Hovland, Zalatoris, Burns and the likes looked like not making the majors next year, either the owgr would have been changed rapidly, or the majors would have added a LIV-path qualification criteria.
The line that, well, the players knew the rules before they jumped, they know how to qualify if they want to,etc is utter nonsense. The point of the majors is to have the best of world golf in the field. They are nothing if entry paths and filters for the worlds best dont get them in there.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's quite clear from yesterdays comments that LIV feel like *they have met the criteria*. I did say a few weeks back, that it will probaby end up going down the route of a legal challenge, and nothing has changed to alter that view.
		
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How many times does it need to be stated that they don't meet the criteria in several critical areas and that the assessment can take a year or two - likely to check that compliance isn't simply in order to get a positive decision!
LIV going down the route of a legal challenge would be seriously unwise imo, as, given the timeline for the one wrt PGAT, that would simply delay the start of the review process - into late 2024, so no points until 2025 or 2026!


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			How many times does it need to be stated that they don't meet the criteria in several critical areas and that the assessment can take a year or two - likely to check that compliance isn't simply in order to get a positive decision!
LIV going down the route of a legal challenge would be seriously unwise imo, as, given the timeline for the one wrt PGAT, that would simply delay the start of the review process - into late 2024, so no points until 2025 or 2026!
		
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I said, "*They feel like they have met the criteria*", whether they have or not is open to debate. The PGA China tour didn't take 2 years of assement to have points awarded, they were awarded before a ball was struck. Why on earth should it take one to two years anyway? There is absolutely no logical reason, another failing of the OWGR system - and again, it will be portrayed as a reason to delay any decision to adversely affect the LIV series by those board members of the OWGR who have a vested interest in their own tours.


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## Ian_George (Oct 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I said, "*They feel like they have met the criteria*", whether they have or not is open to debate. The PGA China tour didn't take 2 years of assement to have points awarded, they were awarded before a ball was struck. Why on earth should it take one to two years anyway? There is absolutely no logical reason, another failing of the OWGR system - and again, it will be portrayed as a reason to delay any decision to adversely affect the LIV series by those board members of the OWGR who have a vested interest in their own tours.
		
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Do *you* think they do! Average field size 75+; majority of events 36 Hole Cut; Qualifying etc I would also expect any OWGR Board member to recuse themselves from decisions where they have a significant vested interest! Oh and PGA China Tour was or is a sub-tour of the PGA Tour, which explains why the assessment was expedited!


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 30, 2022)

And we're off on finals day. 

Anybody but the 4 Aces please. 
Im pulling for Cam Smiths Aussies since the Majesticks  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇸🇪 went out


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## Jigger (Oct 30, 2022)

Apologies if above but this is an interesting read.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63441853


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 30, 2022)

Just set up a podcast for golf journo Alan Shipnuck with DPWT player Scott Hend on twitter. 
One of the few DPWT players who posts openly about Liv. 

What I didn't know was he has just lost his card and seems ready to talk warts and all. 
This could be a very interesting podcast.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586801558343372802


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Just set up a podcast for golf journo Alan Shipnuck with DPWT player Scott Hend on twitter.
One of the few DPWT players who posts openly about Liv.

What I didn't know was he has just lost his card and seems ready to talk warts and all.
This could be a very interesting podcast..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586801558343372802

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Scott Hend has been pretty forthcoming anyway in Twitter, so if he’s prepared to go warts and all, it will be worth hearing.


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## JamesR (Oct 30, 2022)

Jigger said:



			Apologies if above but this is an interesting read.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63441853

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Funny how they still think they are eligible for points


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 30, 2022)

Congratulations to DJ and the 4 Aces there. Best team through the inaugural season, Perez sticking it to the critics with a solid score today. 
Fantastic round from Cam Smith, the ozzy team just lacking the strength in depth but that was a tight finish. The team concept works.


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## Jigger (Oct 30, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Funny how they still think they are eligible for points
		
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If they keep recruiting there’ll be no option but to have a ranking system. This will become like darts or boxing with different organisations.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 30, 2022)

That's a wrap on 2022 Liv Golf. 

Head of PIF says they are going to announce new signings before the end of the year. 

Inevitable that more are going to move across but who and how many? 

PGAT player Andrew Putnum said on the Stripe Show Podcast he has heard a team of 4 Europeans are going across.. 
Hatton, Fleetwood, Rose, Wallace, Pieters... Who knows?? 

Observer also ran a story saying Cantlay and Xander could be going. 

Me thinks Liv is going to continue to be in the news.. 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...oadcast-deal-for-2023-season?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			That's a wrap on 2022 Liv Golf.

Head of PIF says they are going to announce new signings before the end of the year.

Inevitable that more are going to move across but who and how many?

PGAT player Andrew Putnum said on the Stripe Show Podcast he has heard a team of 4 Europeans are going across..
Hatton, Fleetwood, Rose, Wallace, Pieters... Who knows??

Observer also ran a story saying Cantlay and Xander could be going.

Me thinks Liv is going to continue to be in the news..

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...oadcast-deal-for-2023-season?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

Well, as a spectacle, it won't be be missed by me, though I'll miss not seeing some of its members compete against non-LIV ones until Major participation is resolved. I'm sure there'll be more guys recruited, with announcements timed to keep it in the news. As a 'disrupter', that's an essential part of its strategy for a while - as is the OWGR issue that


TheBigDraw said:



			That's a wrap on 2022 Liv Golf.

Head of PIF says they are going to announce new signings before the end of the year.

Inevitable that more are going to move across but who and how many?

PGAT player Andrew Putnum said on the Stripe Show Podcast he has heard a team of 4 Europeans are going across..
Hatton, Fleetwood, Rose, Wallace, Pieters... Who knows??

Observer also ran a story saying Cantlay and Xander could be going.

Me thinks Liv is going to continue to be in the news..

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...oadcast-deal-for-2023-season?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

I'm certain there'll be more players lured across, with announcements timed to keep LIV in the news. For that reason, the OWGR issue won't go away either, with LIV guys continuing to claim that they should be awarded points now! I believe OWGR/Majors Board should resist that, but offer some sort of entry criteria or method into Majors until the points awarding issue is resolved. It's not something I imagine will happen soon though, as I believe it clashes with LIV's 'disrupter' strategy.

I'm not a fan of the broadcast format - not the relaxed style of other tours, though Feherty has smoothed the commentary since joining and the screen is too busy imo. I don't really give a toss about the 'team' side of it, but that's likely to become more significant with it being part of the ongoing funding.


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Congratulations to DJ and the 4 Aces there. Best team through the inaugural season, Perez sticking it to the critics with a solid score today.
Fantastic round from Cam Smith, the ozzy team just lacking the strength in depth but that was a tight finish. The team concept works. 

Click to expand...

DJ drops a spot to 31st in the world. The owgr dont lie, so I certainly believe there are 30 golfers in the world better than Dustin, and that he has gotten even worse this weekend.

No, the team concept does not work. There are probably some exception viewers to prove the rule, but nobody, cares or follows the team element. It is the worst 'innovation' in LIV, and worse, the golfing world recognising it is nonsense despite the PR spin, is actually detrimental to its credibility as serious sport, lending it more the atmosphere, commentators included, of a 1980s ITV game show.


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## AussieKB (Oct 31, 2022)

Well I enjoyed the team side, just hope Cam Smith can hang on to a top 50 spot in OWGR, as he is not only Champion Golfer of the Year but the PGA Players champ as well, but according to some people he is a has been.

Can see a new ranking system coming out next year.


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## PieMan (Oct 31, 2022)

Well 4 teams contesting a 'Final' is certainly new! Perhaps that's what the Qatari's are going to spring on us for their World Cup? France v Germany v Brazil v Argentina on the same pitch........


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## AussieKB (Oct 31, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Well 4 teams contesting a 'Final' is certainly new! Perhaps that's what the Qatari's are going to spring on us for their World Cup? France v Germany v Brazil v Argentina on the same pitch........

Click to expand...

No England ?????


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 31, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well I enjoyed the team side, just hope Cam Smith can hang on to a top 50 spot in OWGR, as he is not only Champion Golfer of the Year but the PGA Players champ as well, but according to some people he is a has been.

Can see a new ranking system coming out next year.
		
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Haters gonna hate 

Cam Smith shooting a 65 round that course proves he’s right up there as a world class golfer, regardless of what some ranking system says. 

The datagolf rankings will be updated later, be interesting to see how the weekends golf affects their positions.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well I enjoyed the team side, just hope Cam Smith can hang on to a top 50 spot in OWGR, as he is not only Champion Golfer of the Year but the PGA Players champ as well, but according to some people he is a has been.

Can see a new ranking system coming out next year.
		
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As winner of The Open and The Players, Smith (and Johnson) has little need for OWGR position for at least 18 months, by which time the situation will, hopefully, be sorted out. It's those who haven't won majors that will be affected most - but then only in relation to Majors. FWIW, the 'alternative' ranking systems I've seen indicate Smith and most other LIV players are dropping even if LIV results are included, though their parameters all differ.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well I enjoyed the team side, just hope Cam Smith can hang on to a top 50 spot in OWGR, as he is not only Champion Golfer of the Year but the PGA Players champ as well, but according to some people he is a has been.

Can see a new ranking system coming out next year.
		
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Where has Cam Smith ever been called a has been? 

You know you could just say you enjoyed the golf you watched without the whiney child dig?


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## Bdill93 (Oct 31, 2022)

Really enjoyed LIV this weekend. 

What will the thread become now we have no events for a while!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 31, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Really enjoyed LIV this weekend.

What will the thread become now we have no events for a while!
		
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A Melfest of rumours sent to him by LIV central command? 🤔


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## AussieKB (Oct 31, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where has Cam Smith ever been called a has been?

You know you could just say you enjoyed the golf you watched without the whiney child dig?
		
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OK I enjoyed the event, shame the Aussie team did not get over the line.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 31, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Well 4 teams contesting a 'Final' is certainly new! Perhaps that's what the Qatari's are going to spring on us for their World Cup? France v Germany v Brazil v Argentina on the same pitch........

Click to expand...

One ball or two? 😁


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			DJ drops a spot to 31st in the world. The owgr dont lie, so I certainly believe there are 30 golfers in the world better than Dustin, and that he has gotten even worse this weekend.
		
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H'mm. Even while I'm not a fan of LIV and its 'disrupter' state, I think your view is coloured by your anti-LIV attitude. Just check out the comparison rankings on Twitter that still shows DJ in the top 10!


Backsticks said:



			No, the team concept does not work. There are probably some exception viewers to prove the rule, but nobody, cares or follows the team element. It is the worst 'innovation' in LIV, and worse, the golfing world recognising it is nonsense despite the PR spin, is actually detrimental to its credibility as serious sport, lending it more the atmosphere, commentators included, of a 1980s ITV game show.
		
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I'm not a fan of the team concept either, though enjoyed the 2 matchplay format rounds. It takes up too much space on the screen and the commentators push it far too much - obviously directed to do so. But it's obviously a differentiator and a likely future funding method, so I'm sure it'll stay or even expand.


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			One ball or two? 😁
		
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Depends on the religious clerics' attitude to punishment by castration 😮😨😱


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where has Cam Smith ever been called a has been?
		
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He certainly isnt a has been, and will still turn out for the majors we have to presume. Semi-retired is probably the best description for him. 

And wins on LiV are certainly not entirely worthless. 
Given the hybrid pre-champions tour / exhibition golf combination nature of it, and small field, I would rate a win just a little behind a Kornferry tour win.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			He certainly isnt a has been, and will still turn out for the majors we have to presume. Semi-retired is probably the best description for him.

And wins on LiV are certainly not entirely worthless.
Given the hybrid pre-champions tour / exhibition golf combination nature of it, and small field, I would rate a win just a little behind a Kornferry tour win.
		
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Just totally discredited your position with that last sentence there. 

Shame, as you make some worthwhile points, especially where OWGR is concerned.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Really enjoyed LIV this weekend.

What will the thread become now we have no events for a while!
		
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There'll be frequent announcements from LIV Central of new recruits etc! And I'll be watching to see when LIV players, not otherwise qualified, fall out of the top 50 of OWGR.


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## PieMan (Oct 31, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No England ?????
		
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No. If they're lucky England will reach the 8 team semi-final...........


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## garyinderry (Oct 31, 2022)

How many points would the liv players theoretically gain with a small field and fairly shallow pool of players. 

Is it unfair that lesser players have a big chance at gaining plenty of points against short fields. 

Who at LIV has played well through the current series to justify moving up in the world rankings?


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			H'mm. Even while I'm not a fan of LIV and its 'disrupter' state, I think your view is coloured by your anti-LIV attitude. Just check out the comparison rankings on Twitter that still shows DJ in the top 10!

I'm not a fan of the team concept either, though enjoyed the 2 matchplay format rounds. It takes up too much space on the screen and the commentators push it far too much - obviously directed to do so. But it's obviously a differentiator and a likely future funding method, so I'm sure it'll stay or even expand.
		
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Where was DJ in the world rankings before he went to LiV?


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where was DJ in the world rankings before he went to LiV?
		
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12 by the looks of things. Ranked 12th after his last pure PGAT event; 12th 'Before' PGA Champs 16th after the final 3 Majors https://www.owgr.com/playerprofile/dustin-johnson-12422


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## Bdill93 (Oct 31, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			There'll be frequent announcements from LIV Central of new recruits etc! And I'll be watching to see when LIV players, not otherwise qualified, fall out of the top 50 of OWGR.
		
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What a boring thing to watch, why does it bother you?


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			How many points would the liv players theoretically gain with a small field and fairly shallow pool of players.

Is it unfair that lesser players have a big chance at gaining plenty of points against short fields.

Who at LIV has played well through the current series to justify moving up in the world rankings?
		
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I believe @VC606 on Twitter maintains a table of LIV rankings on https://datagolf.com/datagolf-rankings parallel to the OWGR with this Tweet from Robopz 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585047329216004098 showing status as at 23 Oct.

On datagolf's ranking (the green one), 4 LIV players ranked in the top 100 would be significantly (more than 10 places better off) if LIV was awarded points in his ranking system. Nieman would go up 8 to 14 and Smith wold drop 5 ! More of those LIV players in the top 150 OWGR would actually drop by more than they have by simply not played (equivalent to as per OWGR). 

The high ranked players that would benefit most were Nieman, Johnson, Casey, Garcia and Westwood. All this implies that the entire argument for LIV getting OWGR points is, at least for the next couple of years, is, with the current field simply another disruption and there is no great hurry for the OWGR to rush any assessment through!


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			What a boring thing to watch, *why does it bother you*?
		
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It doesn't!


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2022)

It's obvious to most of us that DJ isn't the 31st best player in world golf. He's easily in the top ten, at the worst. 
But he chose to join a tour that didn't qualify for points. As such, no matter whether he, or one of his compatriots on the LIV tour, believes he should get points, he just doesn't.

Once the LIV tour changes enough to meet the criteria for points already set out, he will get points, and hopefully his rankings will improve. After all he is the class act, golf-wise, on that tour.


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## Imurg (Oct 31, 2022)

I'm getting a sense of deja vu..........


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			How many points would the liv players theoretically gain with a small field and fairly shallow pool of players.

Is it unfair that lesser players have a big chance at gaining plenty of points against short fields.

Who at LIV has played well through the current series to justify moving up in the world rankings?
		
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Very few. But they should be getting something. I would still say harder to win a Kornferry tournament, guven the number if players. Half the LIV field is basically Kornferry level anyway, but having a third of the field obviously triples ones chance of a win in LIV, so 1/3 of the points feels about right. 

They cant get high points or anything like even a weak week on the pgat. That would have the opposite effect of what we have today where they are sinking. DJ, Bryson, Smith and a handful of others, would be sharing around easy wins and sustaining ranking positions they wouldnt merit.
If LIV gets a few more top 50 players, though that is looking increasingly unlikely with every passing day, then maybe half Kornferry points would be about the correct rating. Sure, there are 20 players there that are way above Kornferry level, but the numbers are just too low.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It's obvious to most of us that DJ isn't the 31st best player in world golf. He's easily in the top ten, at the worst.
But he chose to join a tour that didn't qualify for points. As such, no matter whether he, or one of his compatriots on the LIV tour, believes he should get points, he just doesn't.

Once the LIV tour changes enough to meet the criteria for points already set out, he will get points, and hopefully his rankings will improve. After all he is the class act, golf-wise, on that tour.
		
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DJ wasn’t in the top 10 when he joined LiV. Has he really done enough to clime into the top 10 since?

Personally, I don’t think so


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

JamesR said:



			It's obvious to most of us that DJ isn't the 31st best player in world golf. He's easily in the top ten, at the worst.
But he chose to join a tour that didn't qualify for points. As such, no matter whether he, or one of his compatriots on the LIV tour, believes he should get points, he just doesn't.

Once the LIV tour changes enough to meet the criteria for points already set out, he will get points, and hopefully his rankings will improve. After all he is the class act, golf-wise, on that tour.
		
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As a winner of The Masters and The US Open, falling down the OWGR rankings won't affect him for a number of years - at least not with current automatic qualification criteria.


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			Serious question,  do you actually watch much of the PGAT? Because there are nearly 50 tournaments it has always had several tiers. I struggle with why people can't just understand the models are _different._
It's easy to do as you just have done and cherry pick from a top tier event "a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30" - just as it would be easy for someone to cherry pick a non top tier event, like perhaps this week where there are no players in the top 40. I just don't see the point in it.
The PGAT will vary each week, the liv will likely stay pretty similar. There are just _different.  🤷‍♂️_

Click to expand...

Did mean to answer you here. 


I watch to some extent, about 15 pgat tournaments a year. Mainly the high profile ones, and I dont watch the ones with few or none of the worlds top 20.
No fixed pattern, but typically an hour or two of Thursday and/or Friday. At whatever time in the evening suits me. Dip in and out. 
10 out of the 15 times, I will watch the last 2 hours of Saturday, and most of those 15, the last 2 hours of Sunday. But sometimes can see a bit of Thursday or Friday, and not see the weekend play. I dont make it my business to be sure to watch them. For the Players, Memorial, Fedex, quite possibly 3 or 4 hours, to the finish on a Sunday. The 4 majors in addition to the above where I would watch a lot. 
I will watch about 10 LPGA tournaments, though fewer hours than above each, and that includes their majors.
And about 6 World tour events. But the daytime golf just doesnt suit me as the evenings, and the fields are weaker.


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			DJ wasn’t in the top 10 when he joined LiV. Has he really done enough to clime into the top 10 since?

Personally, I don’t think so
		
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Yes, as he's been the most successful player in LIV, and no doubt would have done pretty well if on the PGA tour.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			DJ wasn’t in the top 10 when he joined LiV. Has he really done enough to clime into the top 10 since?

Personally, I don’t think so
		
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To me, he's been the outstanding player of LIV! The 'alternative' ranking I referred to in an earlier post indicates he has gone up the ranking (to 7) since joining LIV, and that's while only playing 7 tournaments and 3 majors.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Yes, as he's been the most successful player in LIV, and no doubt would have done pretty well if on the PGA tour.
		
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He must be. He has been competing against mighty golfers like Westwood, Poulter, Mickleson and Garcia, and the extremely in form Brooks and Bryson. 

Let's us not forget all the others, most of who are that incredible at golf that I don't know / can't remember their names.

We don't need to worry about the small fact he has not been in direct competition with most of the guys that were in the top 10, and those just outside it, when he left for LIV. Let us just say he is back in top 10 and forget about the guys we place behind him.


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			He must be. He has been competing against mighty golfers like Westwood, Poulter, Mickleson and Garcia, and the extremely in form Brooks and Bryson.

Let's us not forget all the others, most of who are that incredible at golf that I don't know / can't remember their names.

We don't need to worry about the small fact he has not been in direct competition with most of the guys that were in the top 10, and those just outside it, when he left for LIV. Let us just say he is back in top 10 and forget about the guys we place behind him.
		
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Eh?


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			He must be. He has been competing against mighty golfers like Westwood, Poulter, Mickleson and Garcia, and the extremely in form Brooks and Bryson.

Let's us not forget all the others, most of who are that incredible at golf that I don't know / can't remember their names.

We don't need to worry about the small fact he has not been in direct competition with most of the guys that were in the top 10, and those just outside it, when he left for LIV. Let us just say he is back in top 10 and forget about the guys we place behind him.
		
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H'mm! You seem to be showing your anti-LIV bias! 
Try checking the ranking on datagolf.com! It uses a slightly different method to OWGR, but is independent and includes LIV players and tournaments.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			H'mm! You seem to be showing your anti-LIV bias!
Try checking the ranking on datagolf.com! It uses a slightly different method to OWGR, but is independent and includes LIV players and tournaments.
		
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Yes, I'm not a fan of LIV. But, my serious point was that just because he has done well on LIV, does not mean he is definitively in the Top 10 golfers in the world. Any ranking system is going to struggle, when LIV players are not really competing against most of the other top players in the world.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, I'm not a fan of LIV. But, my serious point was that just because he has done well on LIV, does not mean he is definitively in the Top 10 golfers in the world. *Any ranking system is going to struggle*, when LIV players are not really competing against most of the other top players in the world.
		
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Just so we are clear, as the OWGR ranks players across 23 tours and clearly most top players will not be playing in all these tours at the same time, you must believe the OWGR struggles generally?


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2022)

I think people forget that whilst there are the old folks like Mickleson, Poulter, Westwood, Gargia et al, there are also quite a few excellent players who've moved, Niemann, Ancer, Ortiz, Smith etc who were also ranked quite highly before their moves.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, I'm not a fan of LIV. But, my serious point was that just because he has done well on LIV, does not mean he is definitively in the Top 10 golfers in the world. Any ranking system is going to struggle, when LIV players are not really competing against most of the other top players in the world.
		
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I'm not a fan of LIV either! I agree that, over time, an isolated tour's results could become distorted - either way! That's also part of the reason for the OWGR guidelines that LIV current doesn't comply with! Performances at 'high-ticket' Majors also mitigates distortions somewhat. Statistically, it doesn't take much interaction to 'normalise' sets of samples.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 31, 2022)

With the Liv season done we now enter the Liv Tour transfer window.

More are going to go but who and how significant will they be ?

*RUMOURS*
Well as I mentioned a while ago my friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour said he had heard that Cantlay has signed, so I stand by that.
He got the last 6 that signed spot on.
Cantlay is repeatably mentioned in the rumour mill and his big pal is Xander. Where there is smoke there always seems to be a fire.
They are 4 & 6 in the world and would undoubtably strengthen the Liv field if they left.

He has not heard of this 4man team of Europeans moving over that Andrew Putnam mentioned on the Stripe Show Podcast.
Thomas Pieters is heavily rumoured, strengthens LIV but no big loss.
I would have thought Hatton, Rose, Fleetwood would all be on Livs Radar.

The main rumour is that Liv is looking to strengthen its Asian players for that market and offering Hideki and Tom Kim eye watering amounts of $$$$ to sign up.
Liv's Asian players on the iron heads team is pretty weak to say the least so that strategy would make sense but thats a tough sell, think they have more chance of Hideki but would be surprised if either moved across.

Only other in the top 10 in the world I could see possibly moving would be Morikawa but again id be very surprised.
Any from 10-30 is fair game apart from Billy Horschel & Jordan Spieth.

Going to be an interesting couple of months.

Who do you think will/might move ?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just so we are clear, as the OWGR ranks players across 23 tours and clearly most top players will not be playing in all these tours at the same time, you must believe the OWGR struggles generally?
		
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Going back many years, then there would have been some truth in that. However, over the years the best players had pretty much all moved over to the PGA Tour, and so it would have made ranking the players easier. Sure, they may not be competing against the same players week in, week out. But, they are all within the same tour, with players being constantly competing against other tour members on a regular enough basis for the rankings to iron out. However, even then, there have always been moans and groans about exact positions. Plenty argued Donald and Westwood were never actually World Number 1 (I didn't agree with this argument).

If you go back to the earlier days in this post, you'll find I was very complimentary on DJ, and said it was a big deal that LIV signed him up. As far as I remember, he was the first "proper" player they signed, all others were pretty much has beens and unknowns. Some classed DY as a has been, but I definitely felt he had a few more years in the tank at playing at a high level. However, despite that, I simply don't think one can assume he is a Top 10 golfer in the world just because he did well on LIV. There are plenty of other golfers currently in the top 10/20 players in the world that would argue against him being better than them.

I'm not saying that, had he stayed on PGA, he definitively would not have got back into the Top 10. However, I have serious reservations on that. The field is just too weak, except for a handful of players, to make any proper conclusion on that.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Going back many years, then there would have been some truth in that. However, over the years the best players had pretty much all moved over to the PGA Tour, and so it would have made ranking the players easier. Sure, they may not be competing against the same players week in, week out. But, they are all within the same tour, with players being constantly competing against other tour members on a regular enough basis for the rankings to iron out. However, even then, there have always been moans and groans about exact positions. Plenty argued Donald and Westwood were never actually World Number 1 (I didn't agree with this argument).

If you go back to the earlier days in this post, you'll find I was very complimentary on DJ, and said it was a big deal that LIV signed him up. As far as I remember, he was the first "proper" player they signed, all others were pretty much has beens and unknowns. Some classed DY as a has been, but I definitely felt he had a few more years in the tank at playing at a high level. However, despite that, I simply don't think one can assume he is a Top 10 golfer in the world just because he did well on LIV. There are plenty of other golfers currently in the top 10/20 players in the world that would argue against him being better than them.

I'm not saying that, had he stayed on PGA, he definitively would not have got back into the Top 10. However, I have serious reservations on that. *The field is just too weak, except for a handful of players, to make any proper conclusion on that*.
		
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Pretty much my opinion of the average PGA tour event since LIV began though. 

Only player in the OGWR who I think's position is accurate is Rory as he's placed so highly all year round really. Everyone else is a toss up. Cam Smith certainly finished the season well - Scottie started it well - and so on...

Were at page 406 and still arguing about OGWR points.... banter


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			With the Liv season done we now enter the Liv Tour transfer window.

More are going to go but who and how significant will they be ?

*RUMOURS*
Well as I mentioned a while ago my friend who is a coach on the PGA Tour said he had heard that Cantlay has signed, so I stand by that.
He got the last 6 that signed spot on.
Cantlay is repeatably mentioned in the rumour mill and his big pal is Xander. Where there is smoke there always seems to be a fire.
They are 4 & 6 in the world and would undoubtably strengthen the Liv field if they left.

He has not heard of this 4man team of Europeans moving over that Andrew Putnam mentioned on the Stripe Show Podcast.
Thomas Pieters is heavily rumoured, strengthens LIV but no big loss.
I would have thought Hatton, Rose, Fleetwood would all be on Livs Radar.

The main rumour is that Liv is looking to strengthen its Asian players for that market and offering Hideki and Tom Kim eye watering amounts of $$$$ to sign up.
Liv's Asian players on the iron heads team is pretty weak to say the least so that strategy would make sense but thats a tough sell, think they have more chance of Hideki but would be surprised if either moved across.

Only other in the top 10 in the world I could see possibly moving would be Morikawa but again id be very surprised.
Any from 10-30 is fair game apart from Billy Horschel & Jordan Spieth.

Going to be an interesting couple of months.

Who do you think will/might move ?
		
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Something to keep LIV in the news as interest wanes!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Pretty much my opinion of the average PGA tour event since LIV began though.

Only player in the OGWR who I think's position is accurate is Rory as he's placed so highly all year round really. Everyone else is a toss up. Cam Smith certainly finished the season well - Scottie started it well - and so on...

Were at page 406 and still arguing about OGWR points.... banter
		
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Yes, many PGA Tour fields are weak. However, it still works out OK for rankings. Because, the weakest players that play in events this sort of time of year would love to play in the bigger PGA Tour events, but cannot. The best players can, and they can choose not to play that much in the events this time of year. However, the big players will still play a few events with weak fields, and the weaker players will qualify for the stronger events (say, by winning one of the weaker events). So, there is enough crossover between all the players to allow a pretty decent ranking system to be produced.

The same is not true with LIV though. The weaker players in LIV are not also competing in events with a variation of the worlds top players from one week to the next, and the top players are not either. It is a closed shop (except when LIV sign up another random player, and ditch another), except that we should still, for a period, have some of the LIV players competing in Majors for a while yet, who still qualify.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?
		
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They would have to or it goes against their players are "Independant contractors" mantra. 

PGAT has been very strong in their message saying there is no way back if you go.. Its part of their deterrent to stop players from moving over.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?
		
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Don't think they could bail on LIV until their contract with LIV expires - without serious financial implications.

I dont think LIV players are limited as to where they play the rest of the time though - So they could do both


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just out of interest, what would happen if someone like Bryson or Brooks decided they no longer wanted to play on LIV, and wanted to rejoin the PGA Tour? Assuming the PGA Tour let them, would LIV permit this?
		
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That'll all depend on their contract(s)! Indeed, PGAT reaction would be 'interesting'! But I'm almost certain that an employer (even of an independent contractor) cannot force an employee or contractor not to leave.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			He must be. He has been competing against mighty golfers like Westwood, Poulter, Mickleson and Garcia, and the extremely in form Brooks and Bryson.

Let's us not forget all the others, most of who are that incredible at golf that I don't know / can't remember their names.

We don't need to worry about the small fact he has not been in direct competition with most of the guys that were in the top 10, and those just outside it, when he left for LIV. Let us just say he is back in top 10 and forget about the guys we place behind him.
		
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LOL!......Yep, not to mention three round tournaments with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M.
Playing the same guys every week with only one in the top 20 in the world is not the proper gauge.


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## TheBigDraw (Oct 31, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			LOL!......Yep, not to mention three round tournaments with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M.
Playing the same guys every week with only one in the top 20 in the world is not the proper gauge.
		
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The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all. 
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 31, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			That'll all depend on their contract(s)! Indeed, PGAT reaction would be 'interesting'! But I'm almost certain that an employer (even of an independent contractor) cannot force an employee or contractor not to leave.
		
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Or the player could do like modern athletes that want to be traded or get out of a contract .......They could tank and hurt the team. Will golfers do that? I don't think so.


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## Mel Smooth (Oct 31, 2022)

datagolf rankings have been updated to include the weekends performances.

Cam moves up two places, DJ drops down a place to 8th - he's ranked 31st on the OWGR for reference.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all.
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.
		
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Well, Tiger said, "where is the will to practice" and I'm paraphrasing.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Well, Tiger said, "where is the will to practice" and I'm paraphrasing.
		
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IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The top guys don't lose that will to win. #fact
If you think DJ and Cam Smith etc are not trying hard to win then you ain't been watching properly or at all. 
Especially in this team event where no one wanted to let their team mates down.
		
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Not sure that is relevant though. I am sure Bernard Langer still has a huge will to win, and when competing on the Seniors Tour has done very very well. However, despite that will to win and his better performances relative to those he was against, it didn't mean he was one of the top golfers in the world. He was competing against weaker fields than those on PGA.

Just using that as a clear example, not saying the likes of Smith or DJ are at the same current level as Langer. But, even if DJ's will to win is as high as it was a year or 2 ago, it doesn't mean he is just as good at golf. He might be, he might not be, but it is much harder to know if he is competing in less challenging fields.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

I had hoped the forum could stay above things like Facebook & Twitter and not become too tribal etc., have some debate, and a few laughs. For a bit of fun, golf is notoriously hard to predict but where might you put your money based on a fictitious match on current owgr rankings:
(rankings alongside where possible)
Team A             ---          Team B
1. Scheffler        v         C Smith
2. Lowry             v         Niemann
3. Bradley           v        Ancer
4. Conners         v        Johnson
5. Scott              v         Gooch
6. Pieters           v         Koepka
7. Harman         v         Na
8. Kitayama       v         Oosthuziun
9. Berger            v         Varner
10. Periera         v         Kokrak
11. Noren           v         Casey
12. Hughes        v         DeChambeau
13. Henley         v          Reed

A few potential decent matches in there, looks pretty even.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Or the player could do like modern athletes that want to be traded or get out of a contract .......They could tank and hurt the team. Will golfers do that? I don't think so.
		
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Again, it'll depend on the contract! In football, for instance, the club is likely still paying such a who has no incentive to perform so team results would likely suffer LIV, however could simply drop the player from the 48 in their events, so no income for the player! The contract _*could*_ actually be worded such that the headline 'guaranteed' value has to be earned by performance rather than simply as a sign-on 'bung'!


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.
		
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True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont. No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont. No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.
		
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I'd suggest that Chacarra's record was enhanced  - do you not think?
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/eugenio-chacarra-wins-liv-golf-bangkok/

Have agreed before that the current liv events can't be compared with the few premium events with a big field stacked with top players. But don't think they can be dismissed in the way you suggest.
At risk of going around in circles again - 
Rahm winning the Spanish open, enhanced his record and improved his ranking but surely you'd acknowledge the field strength was poor - he was virtually certain of the win, with only a few who may upset, despite the big field.
Then other end of spectrum - Rory winning in a field of 29 players. Yes the top 20 were pretty stacked, but there wasn't a full field for someone to upset from  - surely you'd acknowledge that enhanced his record.

If only there was a system to try to fairly compare across all these permutations 😉


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## Swango1980 (Oct 31, 2022)

IainP said:



			IMO it's such a lame argument. Tiger pretty much became the wealthiest golfer the day he turned pro. And the massive appearance money payouts didn’t seem to stop him trying to win.
		
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I'm pretty sure the "massive" (inverted commas as I doubt he was getting appearance fees on same scale as LIV money) appearance pay outs were a direct result of Tiger's ability, and then success. If he wasn't head a shoulders better than everyone else, and just another pro golfer, then he'd be no more special than anyone else. That will to win was required to build his legacy towards being the greatest ever golfer, and to build his brand. That was his motivation.

Can the same be said for Pat Perez, for example? He knows he'll never have a legacy as one of the greatest golfers of all time, or be a huge global brand. However, he does know he has now been given more access to money that would ever have been possible on PGA, even when fighting hard enough to keep his card and his earnings up. I'm sure he still has a will to win, but his motivations both before and after LIV will have been very different to Tiger's.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			True, but the difference with LIV is that the tournaments are a weaker field with a low number of golfers. The ones Tiger wanted to win had currency with both pro golfers and fans. The LIV ones dont.* No LIV players record will be enhanced by LIV wins*. It is either frozen in time the day they jumped, or they can enhance it on in the majors.
		
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I think Eugenio López-Chacarra's 'instant' win could well be - depending on how he subsequently performs in any majors he subsequently plays in (if or once allowed). Edit: Beaten by IanP's post!


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## Backsticks (Oct 31, 2022)

Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm pretty sure the "massive" (inverted commas as I doubt he was getting appearance fees on same scale as LIV money) appearance pay outs were a direct result of Tiger's ability, and then success. If he wasn't head a shoulders better than everyone else, and just another pro golfer, then he'd be no more special than anyone else. That will to win was required to build his legacy towards being the greatest ever golfer, and to build his brand. That was his motivation.

Can the same be said for Pat Perez, for example? He knows he'll never have a legacy as one of the greatest golfers of all time, or be a huge global brand. However, he does know he has now been given more access to money that would ever have been possible on PGA, even when fighting hard enough to keep his card and his earnings up. I'm sure he still has a will to win, but his motivations both before and after LIV will have been very different to Tiger's.
		
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You perhaps skipped a post or two - this was the original context:

.. with no pressure because he's prepaid $100M

I'd still suggest Tiger as a professional never had any financial pressures to worry about to spur him practice golf, or close out tournaments. And that likely applies to the top nn players today also.

Interesting you chose Perez. It seemed to me he was feeling the pressure of potentially being the weak link in his team, and possibly that spurred him on.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.
		
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Ha yes, forgot about the Hero Challenge! And mostly agree, I'd posted a bit back that I don't think all (20) players should receive ranking points in those kind if events.
Wonder if anyone has done some recent research around field sizes, purely on perception it maybe feels like of late tournament wins are coming from a smaller group of entered players within the fields.
Which gives an excuse to acknowledge Seamus Power winning in Bermuda at the weekend 👍 - kicking myself for not putting a few bob on that as his ranking was way above majority of field.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.
		
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If you check out the - pretty accurate imo - field strength ratings in the, independent, DataGolf site https://datagolf.com/field-strength-table you'll find he (presumably) disagrees on 'Player Quality' - at least for the lower ranked players in the event, but does seem to agree wrt to 'Difficulty to Win'! LIV is ranked significantly above KFT and also above the PGAT played the same week - quite deliberate timing by LIV imo! The Bedminster vs Hero Challenge is an example of LIV's timing btw.


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## cleveland52 (Oct 31, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Again, it'll depend on the contract! In football, for instance, the club is likely still paying such a who has no incentive to perform so team results would likely suffer LIV, however could simply drop the player from the 48 in their events, so no income for the player! The contract _*could*_ actually be worded such that the headline 'guaranteed' value has to be earned by performance rather than simply as a sign-on 'bung'!
		
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Agreed. Plus the fact that most professional contracts are incentive laden.


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## Ian_George (Oct 31, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Agreed. Plus the fact that most professional contracts are incentive laden.
		
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'Incentive' is one of the hot issues wrt LIV Tour guys!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure that is relevant though. I am sure Bernard Langer still has a huge will to win, and when competing on the Seniors Tour has done very very well. However, despite that will to win and his better performances relative to those he was against, it didn't mean he was one of the top golfers in the world. He was competing against weaker fields than those on PGA.

Just using that as a clear example, not saying the likes of Smith or DJ are at the same current level as Langer. But, even if DJ's will to win is as high as it was a year or 2 ago, it doesn't mean he is just as good at golf. He might be, he might not be, but it is much harder to know if he is competing in less challenging fields.
		
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These guys (All top Pro golfers) want to win whether they are playing a Liv event, PGAT event, major or Sunday match with their mates.

Thats why they became top Pro golfers.

To suggest these guys are not trying or wanting to win because of Livs model is just plain wrong and disrespectful to them as players.

Cam Smith could have just turned up and banked the money but he is grinding in every event and I've watched pretty much every minute of them all.
As another example look at Westwoods interview in Boston when he needed birdie to win on the last and he bogeyed to miss play off, he was totally devastated.

These guys want to win first and foremost everytime they tee it up..


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Chacarra's maybe was, but in the way a Kornferry win (arguably a more impressive win than a LIV), or a 'win' in the Hero challenge, or the one in Ireland before the Open, or leading the tour qualifier competition. They are wins. And for golfers on the up, are a positive, but more of things to come, than worthy ends in themselves. The thing with a LIV win, is that it leads nowhere, other than more of the same. And they are never going to match pgat or Euro tour win. Even the Spanish open. The field size is a big factor in golf. Golf is not like tennis or sports where it doesnt really matter how many entrants there are. It still pretty much comes down the to the usual 8, or even 4, to decide who wins. Thats why the Hero Challenge is worth nothing either.
		
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Your right at the moment it doesn't lead anywhere but it's only 135 days old as a tour.
It leads nowhere till/if they get OWGR points.
Till the majors announce qualifying criteria for Liv golf, they may for example say top 5 on liv order of merit qualify excluding already exempt players.

In the next 2 months more top players ARE going to move, many on here don't like to hear that but it is going to happen.

As more top players move across the need will be greater for pathways to be generated because majors want the best players in their events and OWGR can't have a ranking system for the worlds best golfers with a growing % of the worlds best golfers missing from its list.

No before we go round in circles about OWGR tour qualifying criteria for the 20th time, yes Liv might have to make some concessions to get OWGR points.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			These guys (All top Pro golfers) want to win whether they are playing a Liv event, PGAT event, major or Sunday match with their mates.

Thats why they became top Pro golfers.

To suggest these guys are not trying or wanting to win because of Livs model is just plain wrong and disrespectful to them as players.

Cam Smith could have just turned up and banked the money but he is grinding in every event and I've watched pretty much every minute of them all.
As another example look at Westwoods interview in Boston when he needed birdie to win on the last and he bogeyed to miss play off, he was totally devastated.

These guys want to win first and foremost everytime they tee it up..
		
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Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month. 

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.


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## AussieKB (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.
		
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Same can be said about players on the PGAT... it is up to each individual to set their own goals.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Same can be said about players on the PGAT... it is up to each individual to set their own goals.
		
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Not really. The financial rewards are less than LIV, and if you start playing poorly you will, sooner or later, start losing your rights to play much at all on the PGA Tour.

The likes of Bryson and Brooks are pretty much guaranteed their place on LIV for as long as they want it. Certainly long enough to earn lot and lots of money, even if their performances are generally poor. Especially as they are only up against 47 other guys, many of whom have miles less ability. 

So, the PGA and LIV are not just the same. It is a ridiculously simplistic way to think of things, just because the best players on the PGA are wealthy as well. We all know that if LIV didn't have the financial packages they do, and only offered the same amount as PGA or even a little bit more, none of the top players in the world would likely have bothered joining.


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## AussieKB (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not really. The financial rewards are less than LIV, and if you start playing poorly you will, sooner or later, start losing your rights to play much at all on the PGA Tour.

The likes of Bryson and Brooks are pretty much guaranteed their place on LIV for as long as they want it. Certainly long enough to earn lot and lots of money, even if their performances are generally poor. Especially as they are only up against 47 other guys, many of whom have miles less ability.

So, the PGA and LIV are not just the same. It is a ridiculously simplistic way to think of things, just because the best players on the PGA are wealthy as well. We all know that if LIV didn't have the financial packages they do, and only offered the same amount as PGA or even a little bit more, none of the top players in the world would likely have bothered joining.
		
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How much do you need ????
The average PGA Tour player made slightly under $1.5 million in 2021, according to pgatour.com. 

One Aussie of no big note is :
Aaron Baddeley has an estimated net worth of about $22 million.

He turned professional in 2000, and he has played for 23 years. Over the years, Aaron has averaged about $996,743 prize money earnings per year.


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.
		
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The only place where the 'best' issue is likely to be resolved is at the Majors! And for at least the next year, participation of the top LIV players (perhaps sans Chacarra) will certainly be able to play in at least a selection of the Majors Bryson probably won't be eligible for The Masters, but DJ will - for life. BdC has another 9 years of eligibility for US Open, Cameron Smith is exempt from The Open until 60 and qualifies for all other Majors in 2023  There are other LIV players with various exemptions. And, of course both Opens have open Qualifying tournaments too.

None of the players, on any Tour, that are in contention for Major wins have financial worries, so arguments based on that have no value!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Can you please point out where I said they didn't want to win, or are trying to win? I said nothing of the sort.

I desperately want to win, and try to win at the weekends. That doesn't mean I am automatically as good at golf as I was 5 years ago, last year or even last month.

There is a difference between wanting and trying to win or do well, and needing to win for the sake of your livelihood.

With no more financial worries, it makes sense that several LIV golfers may not feel the need to spend as many gruesome hours practicing. They can now focus a bit more on other interests, and family time, now they are set for life. I am sure their desire to win when they tee it up may be just as strong, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they were before.
		
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Im not calling you out personally here 👍 it's just a general consensus that the money on Liv means they dont try or want to win as much and I believe strongly that's not true. 

That rational would also apply to a very high amount of PGAT players who don't have any financial worries. 

So Rory doesn't want to win because he has no financial worries? 

Stephan Jaeger (Yes I've never heard of him either) No 100 on the PGAT 2022 money list won $1.2 million dollars. 

Yes far less than some of the Liv Players but not exactly suffering from financial worries. 

I agree that this year your point has some validation as per time with family because they only played 8 Events and we can only guess at how much they practiced compared to before but these guys all have professional pride for sure. 

Next year though they will be playing 14 Liv events and 4 majors. 

At the end of the day they all want to win whether it be Rory, Cam, Stephen Jaegar or Sam Horsefield. 

At the moment and for some considerable time if not ever a Liv win is worth far more in money than a iconic PGAT win but less in historic and legacy value. 
Im talking about ,bay hill, Memorial, genesis etc not so much the Shriners and bermuda.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

Cam Smith shot a 65 round the Blue Monster on Sunday.

Why are people questioning the credentials of these guys?


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## AussieKB (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Cam Smith shot a 65 round the Blue Monster on Sunday.

Why are people questioning the credentials of these guys?
		
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He could shoot 59 and they still would not be happy


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## Beezerk (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			He could shoot 59 and they still would not be happy
		
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Then it would be an easy course with no challenge 🤣 an excuse for everything as long as it allows a negative spin.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How much do you need ????
		
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I've no idea. Ask Phil Mickleson, Bryson DeChambeau or Cameron Smith



Ian_George said:



			The only place where the 'best' issue is likely to be resolved is at the Majors! And for at least the next year, participation of the top LIV players (perhaps sans Chacarra) will certainly be able to play in at least a selection of the Majors Bryson probably won't be eligible for The Masters, but DJ will - for life. BdC has another 9 years of eligibility for US Open, Cameron Smith is exempt from The Open until 60 and qualifies for all other Majors in 2023  There are other LIV players with various exemptions. And, of course both Opens have open Qualifying tournaments too.

None of the players, on any Tour, that are in contention for Major wins have financial worries, *so arguments based on that have no value*!
		
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How can it have no value, when we know that virtually all the LIV players, if not all, moved precisely because of the money. If I offered Rory and Spieth £500 million to move to my county, and play every weekend in my clubs monthly medals, with £10 million first place prize, £5 million for second, then I'm sure they'd want to win every time they play, although I'd strongly suspect their motivation to win would be less than competing on PGA Tour. I'd also imagine that their ability would decline, simply as they are no longer being tested as much as they could be, and the fact they have guaranteed money every week regardless.

I use an extreme example, of course, for clarity. I'm certainly not saying the likes of Cameron Smith, DJ, Bryson are suddenly rubbish players. They've only just joined LIV, and there is no evidence to suggest they are suddenly worse players as we sit here today. If one of them won the Masters next year, it would not be the shock of the century. What I am saying is that:


it is difficult to say they have or haven't declined in form, as the goalposts are now very much different to what they were pre-LIV. Have they all got better together, worse together, just the same, or all different? Especially hard to tell with such small fields with a wide range of ability in players
For many players, the extreme money they earn is a by product of their will to win, and be the best they can be. For others, money is the motivating factor, especially for those that are journeymen or even struggling to retain a tour card. Yes, journeymen may have millions, but I am sure most adapt to their earnings. They may have a multi million pound house or 2, and several flash cars, etc. More money than we can ever dream off, but once they have it they find they can quite comfortably spend it, and they are desperate to continue to earn more to ensure they can maintain that lifestyle. Signing up for LIV was a big signal that the player was motivated by the money, and it is a much easier way to get the money than having to graft on the PGA Tour, make cuts, get wins or high performances, etc.
If things stay roughly the same for the next 3 or 4 years, I would be interested to see how LIV players compete in Majors when they play. Especially the younger ones like Cameron Smith, who should still be in his prime years. Then we'll know if LIV has resulted in players taking their eye off the ball a bit due to lack of practice, or lose of desire simply as their is no NEED to be successful, even if there is still a desire to be successful every time they play. But, who knows where we'll be in 4 or 5 years. Maybe LIV will take over the world by then, maybe it'll fizzle out or somewhere in between. If it is still about, I'd wonder if they can still throw as much money around so freely?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			He could shoot 59 and they still would not be happy
		
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You are still playing the victim it seems, only hearing what you want to hear. No one has said your beloved Cameron Smith is a rubbish player, you just are not getting the context of the discussion.


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## Backsticks (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Cam Smith shot a 65 round the Blue Monster on Sunday.

Why are people questioning the credentials of these guys?
		
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I wouldnt question the credentials of the guys. I question the credentials of the 'wins', and dont regard them as any sporting achievement of note, fir elite golfers.


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## Backsticks (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			He could shoot 59 and they still would not be happy
		
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It isnt the score that is the issue. Its the difficulty of getting a win. LIV is too easy, today. It is of negligible value. No matter what some one shoots. If its against a weak field, its still a weak win.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I wouldnt question the credentials of the guys. I question the credentials of the 'wins', and dont regard them as any sporting achievement of note, fir elite golfers.
		
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So the same logic applies to Rory’s recent wins without the competition that is now playing on LIV…..?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I've no idea. Ask Phil Mickleson, Bryson DeChambeau or Cameron Smith


How can it have no value, when we know that virtually all the LIV players, if not all, moved precisely because of the money. If I offered Rory and Spieth £500 million to move to my county, and play every weekend in my clubs monthly medals, with £10 million first place prize, £5 million for second, then I'm sure they'd want to win every time they play, although I'd strongly suspect their motivation to win would be less than competing on PGA Tour. I'd also imagine that their ability would decline, simply as they are no longer being tested as much as they could be, and the fact they have guaranteed money every week regardless.

I use an extreme example, of course, for clarity. I'm certainly not saying the likes of Cameron Smith, DJ, Bryson are suddenly rubbish players. They've only just joined LIV, and there is no evidence to suggest they are suddenly worse players as we sit here today. If one of them won the Masters next year, it would not be the shock of the century. What I am saying is that:


it is difficult to say they have or haven't declined in form, as the goalposts are now very much different to what they were pre-LIV. Have they all got better together, worse together, just the same, or all different? Especially hard to tell with such small fields with a wide range of ability in players
For many players, the extreme money they earn is a by product of their will to win, and be the best they can be. For others, money is the motivating factor, especially for those that are journeymen or even struggling to retain a tour card. Yes, journeymen may have millions, but I am sure most adapt to their earnings. They may have a multi million pound house or 2, and several flash cars, etc. More money than we can ever dream off, but once they have it they find they can quite comfortably spend it, and they are desperate to continue to earn more to ensure they can maintain that lifestyle. Signing up for LIV was a big signal that the player was motivated by the money, and it is a much easier way to get the money than having to graft on the PGA Tour, make cuts, get wins or high performances, etc.
If things stay roughly the same for the next 3 or 4 years, I would be interested to see how LIV players compete in Majors when they play. Especially the younger ones like Cameron Smith, who should still be in his prime years. Then we'll know if LIV has resulted in players taking their eye off the ball a bit due to lack of practice, or lose of desire simply as their is no NEED to be successful, even if there is still a desire to be successful every time they play. But, who knows where we'll be in 4 or 5 years. Maybe LIV will take over the world by then, maybe it'll fizzle out or somewhere in between. If it is still about, I'd wonder if they can still throw as much money around so freely?
		
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Surely the actual measure here though is their scores? So long as in a good week DJ and Smith etc. are going 4-6 under per round (mid rated track) they'd compete at any level on any tour.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Surely the actual measure here though is their scores? So long as in a good week DJ and Smith etc. are going 4-6 under per round (mid rated track) they'd compete at any level on any tour.
		
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Not necessarily. it is difficult to make any worthwhile conclusions from scores alone. For starters, we do not know what the Course Rating is in Comparison to Par. If Course Par was 70 at 2 courses, and one had a course rating of 74 and the other a course rating of 78, that is an absolute difference of 12 shots over 3 rounds (regardless if the player plays well or badly). We also do not know how easy or hard the course was set up, in contrast to how these Ratings were measured in the first place.

But, as I said, I don't think a player necessarily immediately loses their ability once they signed on the dotted line. Far from it. And, even if they started to lose their consistency and form over a longer term, that is not to say they don't have the potential to turn up one day and have a great round, where everything just goes right.


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			How can it have no value, when we know that virtually all the LIV players, if not all, moved precisely because of the money...
		
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They may have 'gone for the money', but they didn't go 'because they needed the money'! In fact they were all already seriously wealthy! Cam Smih $50M, Dustin Johnson $100M and so on! So my assertion that arguments simply on their *need for the money* offered stands!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			They may have 'gone for the money', but they didn't go 'because they needed the money'! In fact they were all already seriously wealthy! Cam Smih $50M, Dustin Johnson $100M and so on! So my assertion that arguments simply on their *need for the money* offered stands!
		
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It depends what you mean by the "need"

If they genuinely had zero need for money, they wouldn't have wanted the money. No point in wanting something you do not need. 

However, all that extra money LIV offered will have allowed them to invest more in their personal needs, their business interests and their families future (including wider family, inheritance, etc). So, in that sense, thet wanted the money as it allows them to maximise their needs to spread it around a wide number of areas. 

They could have grafted really hard on PGA Tour for many more years to maximise their income. Then LIV came along and offered then much much more than they could ever dream of on PGA Tour, and without even really needing to graft for it.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not necessarily. it is difficult to make any worthwhile conclusions from scores alone. For starters, we do not know what the Course Rating is in Comparison to Par. If Course Par was 70 at 2 courses, and one had a course rating of 74 and the other a course rating of 78, that is an absolute difference of 12 shots over 3 rounds (regardless if the player plays well or badly). We also do not know how easy or hard the course was set up, in contrast to how these Ratings were measured in the first place.

But, as I said, I don't think a player necessarily immediately loses their ability once they signed on the dotted line. Far from it. And, even if they started to lose their consistency and form over a longer term, that is not to say they don't have the potential to turn up one day and have a great round, where everything just goes right.
		
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I mean course rating doesn't mean jack, nor do scores relative to CR. Pros play to the par of the course. Were talking about pros winning scores in tournaments after 4 days. Recent PGA tour fields winners = -10 -17 -15 -24 -17 -16 

If you're averaging 4-6 under per round in a good week, you're close to 18-24 under for a tournament. Not many PGA tour events go that low. Obviously the ones set up for low scores may go even lower but in general terms its absolutely possible to track how well they're all playing.

Now I don't know if any LIV guys have got close to that in any of their comps, cba to do the research, but if they have they're certainly still competitive.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I mean course rating doesn't mean jack, nor do scores relative to CR. Pros play to the par of the course. Were talking about pros winning scores in tournaments after 4 days. Recent PGA tour fields winners = -10 -17 -15 -24 -17 -16

If you're averaging 4-6 under per round in a good week, you're close to 18-24 under for a tournament. Not many PGA tour events go that low. Obviously the ones set up for low scores may go even lower but in general terms its absolutely possible to track how well they're all playing.

Now I don't know if any LIV guys have got close to that in any of their comps, cba to do the research, but if they have they're certainly still competitive.
		
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You are absolutely wrong in that. I mean, totally.

My old course had a par of 70, CR of 67 off yellows. The Pros could easily go round it in the 50's on a good day, they could probably get on most greens in one less than regulation. However, they would not have such an easy time on a Par 70 course with a Course Rating of 79. Would they!?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You are absolutely wrong in that. I mean, totally.

My old course had a par of 70, CR of 67 off yellows. The Pros could easily go round it in the 50's on a good day, they could probably get on most greens in one less than regulation. However, they would not have such an easy time on a Par 70 course with a Course Rating of 79. Would they!?
		
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But pros dont play on your track, they play on PGA length tracks of 7k yards mate

Are you suggesting that LIV are playing on a goat track in comparison to the PGA tour?


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It depends what you mean by the "need"

If they genuinely had zero need for money, they wouldn't have wanted the money. No point in wanting something you do not need.
		
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Does Poulter need any more Ferraris than the 14 he has already? No! But the money does provide other options - more time with family being the most common one stated.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But pros don't play on your track, they play on PGA length tracks of 7k yards mate

Are you suggesting that LIV are playing on a goat track in comparison to the PGA tour?
		
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Here a course comparison using your metrics:

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/portroyalgcbermuda/

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/royalgreens/index.htm

Both about a CR 75

Both competition fields have winners average -4 per day (ish) - one was LIV, one was the PGA tour.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But pros dont play on your track, they play on PGA length tracks of 7k yards mate

Are you suggesting that LIV are playing on a goat track in comparison to the PGA tour?
		
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No, I was not saying LIV players are playing on a goat track at all. I was simply saying we cannot compare how many under a player is as to how good they are. All courses will have different difficulties in relation to Par, so how many under or over a player is does not give us a proper picture, except against the other players playing on that course on that day(s).

It works both ways, LIV players could be playing much harder courses than the PGA for all I know, I haven't checked.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Does Poulter need any more Ferraris than the 14 he has already? No! But the money does provide other options - more time with family being the most common one stated.
		
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Well, you could have said that after he had 13 Ferrari's. And then he went and bought another one. So, who am I to say that 14 is the magic number that finally satisfies him?

And yes, the money allows more family time, I agree with that one as well. Less time probably required on the practice range as there is less need to perform well to earn a certain amount of money, more time with the family.


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## AussieKB (Nov 1, 2022)

we will see next year if the Majors want the best golfers or not ? am sure Rory would not want to win one without the top LIV players, and what if only 1, 2 or 3 Majors accept LIV players, will the 5th become ?


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2022)

Winning is winning!
Whether on the Alps tour, DP World, PGA or LIV.
Some will be harder than others, as you will have different levels of competition within the field, but getting over the line isn't easy. hence why some players get reputations for bottling etc.

what we can't know is whether the fact that you will still win a fortune, and have the protection of guaranteed golf, if you don't win has any effect.


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## Slab (Nov 1, 2022)

Do you all not think that LIV golf would have the foresight to put some kind of ‘failure to perform’ clause in the Players contracts?

I doubt the LIV Players are on the kind of endless gravy train some are imagining


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

Slab said:



			Do you all not think that LIV golf would have the foresight to put some kind of ‘failure to perform’ clause in the Players contracts?

I doubt the LIV Players are on the kind of endless gravy train some are imagining
		
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They’re not, Poulter was given the captaincy at the weekend. He’s below the cut line for secure playing rights (top 24). Captains are excluded from being ‘cut’ depending on their contracts. My understanding was that started in 2023, so might have just been precautionary but the notion that everybody on LIV is playing without pressure is completely hollow. 

When the series in its fully operational mode next year, there will be a lot at stake for all the players.


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## Backsticks (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So the same logic applies to Rory’s recent wins without the competition that is now playing on LIV…..?
		
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Yes, they are slightly diminished. Roughly 95% of what they would have been had the LIV golfers been there. Thats why LIV has been nothing but damaging. And the same applies to LIV : they are the other 5 % of what a full tournament would be, and so of negligible achievement.


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## Backsticks (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			But pros dont play on your track, they play on PGA length tracks of 7k yards mate

Are you suggesting that LIV are playing on a goat track in comparison to the PGA tour?
		
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The tracks they play are of minimal importance. As are the scores, and the quality of golf they play. Its who they beat, that determines the value of a golf win. The field is everything.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re not, Poulter was given the captaincy at the weekend. He’s below the cut line for secure playing rights (top 24). Captains are excluded from being ‘cut’ depending on their contracts. My understanding was that started in 2023, so might have just been precautionary but the notion that everybody on LIV is playing without pressure is completely hollow.
		
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The pressure of knowing that if your face fits and you're below the cut line you can be gifted the role of captain to make sure you don't get cut? Doesn't sound like it's equal for all participants if the organisers are able to play favourites.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2022)

Slab said:



			Do you all not think that LIV golf would have the foresight to put some kind of ‘failure to perform’ clause in the Players contracts?

I doubt the LIV Players are on the kind of endless gravy train some are imagining
		
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For the lesser lights may be. But I can't imagine they'll pay £50-100m for someone, and then bin them off completely if they have a poor year.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

JamesR said:



			For the lesser lights may be. But I can't imagine they'll pay £50-100m for someone, and then bin them off completely if they have a poor year.
		
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This is my thinking too! Phil has been pretty much irrelevant at LIV... bet he doesn't get cut...


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

JamesR said:



			For the lesser lights may be. But I can't imagine they'll pay £50-100m for someone, and then bin them off completely if they have a poor year.
		
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Indeed. Apparently Phil Mickleson was given $200 Million to play on LIV. It would be strange if they axed him after a few events for playing poorly, and actually performing as if he is well past his peak years.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The pressure of knowing that if your face fits and you're below the cut line you can be gifted the role of captain to make sure you don't get cut? Doesn't sound like it's equal for all participants if the organisers are able to play favourites.
		
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Aye, it’s a bit like Tiger being perpetually injured and failing to git the minimum number of competitions, but because his face fits, he’s welcomed onto the PGAT anytime he wants to play. 

It’s a business decision at the end of the day.,


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## SteveJay (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’re not, Poulter was given the captaincy at the weekend. He’s below the cut line for secure playing rights (top 24). Captains are excluded from being ‘cut’ depending on their contracts. My understanding was that started in 2023, so might have just been precautionary but the notion that everybody on LIV is playing without pressure is completely hollow.

When the series in its fully operational mode next year, there will be a lot at stake for all the players.
		
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Would be absolutely hilarious if Poulter was cut from the LIV tour after all the pontificating! Know he could just retire without a care, but would be satisfying if he was no longer wanted by LIV, and couldn't get back on any other tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			This is my thinking too! Phil has been pretty much irrelevant at LIV... bet he doesn't get cut...
		
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He’s a stakeholder, he’s pivotal to the business model, but I wouldn’t rule him out quickly becoming a non playing captain.


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## Slab (Nov 1, 2022)

JamesR said:



			For the lesser lights may be. But I can't imagine they'll pay £50-100m for someone, and then bin them off completely if they have a poor year.
		
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Bdill93 said:



			This is my thinking too! Phil has been pretty much irrelevant at LIV... bet he doesn't get cut...
		
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Swango1980 said:



			Indeed. Apparently Phil Mickleson was given $200 Million to play on LIV. It would be strange if they axed him after a few events for playing poorly, and actually performing as if he is well past his peak years.
		
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Probably my wording but I'm kinda using _failure to perform_ in a contractual sense rather than just shooting a few (many) over par rounds 

i.e I don't think that contractually they'll get away with; not taking it seriously/not putting a shift in/not practicing enough etc because they got money up front


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## BiMGuy (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Aye, it’s a bit like Tiger being perpetually injured and failing to git the minimum number of competitions, but because his face fits, he’s welcomed onto the PGAT anytime he wants to play.

It’s a business decision at the end of the day.,
		
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Does he not have a lifetime exemption?


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## Beezerk (Nov 1, 2022)

JamesR said:



			For the lesser lights may be. But I can't imagine they'll pay £50-100m for someone, and then bin them off completely if they have a poor year.
		
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It’s not about his golf for me, it’s about getting one of the most recognisable names in golf on board. Almost like paying him to advertise rather than rip it up on the the course.
How much did Rory get for signing up to the Nike sponsorship deal years ago? I can’t remember exactly but it was a shed load wasn’t it.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Aye, it’s a bit like Tiger being perpetually injured and failing to git the minimum number of competitions, but because his face fits, he’s welcomed onto the PGAT anytime he wants to play.

It’s a business decision at the end of the day.,
		
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I like the way you are now desperately trying to compare Tiger Woods, possibly the greatest golfer of all time, to a 52 year old Phil Mickleson, DJ, Westwood, Poulter, etc. 

In addition, I'd imagine if Cameron Smith had to take some time out of the game injured, there would be calls for him to get certain exemptions when he started to play again, if he didn't strictly meet the qualifying criteria due to not being able to play.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			It’s not about his golf for me, it’s about getting one of the most recognisable names in golf on board. Almost like paying him to advertise rather than rip it up on the the course.
How much did Rory get for signing up to the Nike sponsorship deal years ago? I can’t remember exactly but it was a shed load wasn’t it.
		
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And, he is doing a great job at making LIV look like a complete "farce" to anyone outside the LIV fan base. He pretty much fits the definition of a washed up has been, and a has been that was always playing second fiddle to Tiger Woods, which is great if that is what LIV are pushing.


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## Beezerk (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And, he is doing a great job at making LIV look like a complete "farce" to anyone outside the LIV fan base. He pretty much fits the definition of a washed up has been, and a has been that was always playing second fiddle to Tiger Woods, which is great if that is what LIV are pushing.
		
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Wow, your bitterness holds no bounds 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, your bitterness holds no bounds 🤣
		
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Apologies if you have a different opinion. Perhaps you think he is a great person to have as one of the big faces of LIV? But, my opinion is that he is an absolute has been, and his performances suggest that. Cameron Smith, DJ or Bryson would have been much better as the major figureheads of the brand (although Tiger Woods or Rory McIlroy would have been better still).

I'm still shocked that they payed Mickleson so much. Clearly a sign of desperation in the early stages to try and get any well known name on board. But, even before LIV Mickleson seemed to be a fairly divisive figure


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## BiMGuy (Nov 1, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Wow, your bitterness holds no bounds 🤣
		
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He’s not wrong though 😂


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			He’s not wrong though 😂
		
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Yeah facts, Mickleson is done winning.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 1, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I like the way you are now desperately trying to compare Tiger Woods, possibly the greatest golfer of all time, to a 52 year old Phil Mickleson, DJ, Westwood, Poulter, etc.

In addition, I'd imagine if Cameron Smith had to take some time out of the game injured, there would be calls for him to get certain exemptions when he started to play again, if he didn't strictly meet the qualifying criteria due to not being able to play.
		
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I’m not desperately doing anything. 

Tiger gets to play on the PGAT because of his legacy rather than his ability. 

The same applies to several players on LIV.

There is nothing wrong with that, if it generates interest in the product.


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## PieMan (Nov 1, 2022)

So what happens if all the teams become franchises and say Elon Musk buys one of them, possibly Mickelson's team. Does he then have the power to sack Mickelson and the other members of that team if they're not performing?

Or do the limb choppers say no because they'd given Phil $200m initially?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 1, 2022)

PieMan said:



			So what happens if all the teams become franchises and say Elon Musk buys one of them, possibly Mickelson's team. Does he then have the power to sack Mickelson and the other members of that team if they're not performing?

Or do the limb choppers say no because they'd given Phil $200m initially?
		
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Limb choppers  Class


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## PieMan (Nov 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Limb choppers  Class
		
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Ok - journo killers!


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*He’s a stakeholder*, *he’s pivotal to the business model*, but I wouldn’t rule him out quickly becoming a non playing captain.
		
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Er, please explain _*exactly*_ what that means! Has he put money into it or deferred payment or earnings? And how, exactly, is ne 'pivotal to the business model'? Even The Shark doesn't seem particularly 'pivotal' these days, as he seems to be taking a back seat and letting the CEO do more of the communication these days. 'Non-playing Captain' seems equivalent to PGAT giving a player a token (like 'Head of Player Liaison') title, and paying him loads, to someone who can no longer justify being there from the quality of their play!


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## pokerjoke (Nov 1, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			It’s not about his golf for me, it’s about getting one of the most recognisable names in golf on board. Almost like paying him to advertise rather than rip it up on the the course.
How much did Rory get for signing up to the Nike sponsorship deal years ago? I can’t remember exactly but it was a shed load wasn’t it.
		
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Rory got £150 million over 10 years 
But of course now it’s players being greedy.
He’s such a hypocrite it’s unbelievable.


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Aye, it’s a bit like Tiger being perpetually injured and failing to git the minimum number of competitions, but because his face fits, he’s welcomed onto the PGAT anytime he wants to play.

It’s a business decision at the end of the day.,
		
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I'm pretty certain that Tiger would get a sponsor's invite from any tournament that he hasn't already got lifetime exemption from! I'm flabbergasted that you'd consider putting Poulter in the same category! wrt LIV.

There IS an issue of what happens to LIV players, particularly stalwarts or original guys, once they are no longer competitive, especially those who were dropping out of contention anyway (Poulter not really being one of those, but perhaps getting close). But that's their problem, not mine. The Saudis aren't renowned for their sympathetic approach to folk who don't perform to their expectations!


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m not desperately doing anything.

Tiger gets to play on the PGAT because of his legacy rather than his ability.

The same applies to several players on LIV.
		
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Absolutely laughably bizarre reasoning - comparing Tiger's absolutely huge career over many years to about 6 months of LIV that, for all anyone knows (and many might prefer) might be a 1-season wonder - though I'm pretty certain it's here for quite a while.


Mel Smooth said:



			...
it generates interest in the product.
		
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Only of the 'any publicity is good publicity' category! So I'll give it the  it deserves!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Rory got £150 million over 10 years
But of course now it’s players being greedy.
He’s such a hypocrite it’s unbelievable.
		
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I forgot about that, when McIlroy signed a deal with Nike, and suddenly got special treatment relative to his peers, and no longer had to qualify for events. Oh, hang on, that didn't happen....


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 1, 2022)

Valdarama severs ties with DP World Tour to align with Liv??? 

https://www.alistairtaitgolf.com/post/has-valderrama-said-a-sad-adios


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Rory got £150 million over 10 years
But of course now it’s players being greedy.
He’s such a hypocrite it’s unbelievable.
		
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I'm pretty certain Nike did very well out of their association too! Nothing hypocritical imo!


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## pokerjoke (Nov 1, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Yeah, what a hypocrite.. imagine working your nuts off all your life, wanting to be officially best in the world, win meaningful titles and contribute to the game on grassroots basis.

Wow, what a hypocrite..

Stroker
		
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Then slate people for trying to make a living as well.
Yes total Hypocrite.
And please don’t call me names or you will have a week off.


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## pokerjoke (Nov 1, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I'm pretty certain Nike did very well out of their association too! Nothing hypocritical imo!
		
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The hypocritical bit is him calling others greedy for taking Liv money.


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## birdyhunter (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Then slate people for trying to make a living as well.
Yes total Hypocrite.
		
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Or speak his opinion, which is valid but doesn't appease the LIVbots.


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## pokerjoke (Nov 1, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			Or speak his opinion, which is valid but doesn't appease the LIVbots.

Happy to have a week off, you're still wrong.
		
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How can someone take a deal worth £150 million then call people greedy or say others are doing it for the money,if that’s not a hypocrite the meaning needs to change.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			How can someone take a deal worth £150 million then call people greedy or say others are doing it for the money,if that’s not a hypocrite the meaning needs to change.
		
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You've completely failed to get Rory's argument. Had Mickleson signed a $200 million deal with Addidas, then you would have had a great argument. McIlroy would have been a hypocrite for slating him.

I mean, you do realise he isn't simply calling people greedy for getting large amounts of money? It is how they are getting that money is his issue, and how he feels that impacts golf


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			The hypocritical bit is him calling others greedy for taking Liv money.
		
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I wouldn't call it hypocritical, but nor would I call it 'greedy' of the deserters either!


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## birdyhunter (Nov 1, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			How can someone take a deal worth £150 million then call people greedy or say others are doing it for the money,if that’s not a hypocrite the meaning needs to change.
		
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You just don't get it, do you?  He did it as that was the market at the time.. the best players got the big money, unlike now.. You'd rather watch Pat Perez than Rory.. really?

He took the money knowing that it wouldn't destroy the game for the punter who wants to watch the best players in the world compete against each other. Unlike the greedy players now who couldn't give a Tinkers Toss about the people who pay their wages.


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## AussieKB (Nov 1, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			You just don't get it, do you?  He did it as that was the market at the time.. the best players got the big money, unlike now.. You'd rather watch Pat Perez than Rory.. really?

He took the money knowing that it wouldn't destroy the game for the punter who wants to watch the best players in the world compete against each other. Unlike the greedy players now who couldn't give a Tinkers Toss about the people who pay their wages.
		
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How often did the best players play against each other before, excluding The Majors and the Players Champ, not as many times as people believe.

As for the Pat Perez comment, the same could be said about PGAT players and DJ Cam etc.


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## Ian_George (Nov 1, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How often did the best players play against each other before, excluding The Majors and the Players Champ, not as many times as people believe.
		
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Probably significantly more than 60% though not all at once. Plenty of tournaments are used as warm-ups or as part of a 'swing' for the high-value one of a circuit or as prep for Majors.


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## HomecountiesJohn (Nov 2, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			How can someone take a deal worth £150 million then call people greedy or say others are doing it for the money,*if that’s not a hypocrite the meaning needs to change*.
		
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You obviously don't understand the meaning of Hypocrite. The meaning doesn't need to change at all, maybe you need to be educated on the English language.

Taking sponsorship money and taking filthy Saudi money to play less golf  in an inferior competition with no possibility of missing the cut is 2 completely different issues.


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## Beezerk (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm sure we are all really glad Saint Rory is the PGA head boy, the game is in safe hands 


Btw, I love Rory


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## AussieKB (Nov 2, 2022)

HomecountiesJohn said:



			You obviously don't understand the meaning of Hypocrite. The meaning doesn't need to change at all, maybe you need to be educated on the English language.

Taking sponsorship money and taking filthy Saudi money to play less golf  in an inferior competition with no possibility of missing the cut is 2 completely different issues.
		
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But taking Saudi appearance money is OK ?
Playing in Dubai in two weeks time, all these holier then now people will not be there ?
Give me a break.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Probably significantly more than 60% though not all at once. Plenty of tournaments are used as warm-ups or as part of a 'swing' for the high-value one of a circuit or as prep for Majors.
		
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Not quite following your intention of the 60% stat. Could you clarify?
Guess 'top players' is also subjective.
Aware that the current nbr 1 has 46 counting events over a 2 year (~ 100 event) period.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 2, 2022)

So is this where the extra prize money is coming from for the PGA Tour?

Bryson said he had payments witheld from the PIP money, now Bubba is making the same claim. $1.5 million - pretty poor from the PGA Tour imo.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/golf/li...-critics-says-pga-tour-still-owes-1-5-million


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So is this where the extra prize money is coming from for the PGA Tour?

Bryson said he had payments witheld from the PIP money, now Bubba is making the same claim. $1.5 million - pretty poor from the PGA Tour imo.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/golf/li...-critics-says-pga-tour-still-owes-1-5-million

Click to expand...

Old news! Thoroughly reasonable attitude come tactic by PGAT imo. Neither player has fulfilled the requirement and not likely to do so in the future! They could, of course, sue for it but I strongly suspect they'd lose. Still makes another good snippet to keep LIV in the news though.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So is this where the extra prize money is coming from for the PGA Tour?

Bryson said he had payments witheld from the PIP money, now Bubba is making the same claim. $1.5 million - pretty poor from the PGA Tour imo.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/golf/li...-critics-says-pga-tour-still-owes-1-5-million

Click to expand...

Not poor at all if the players no longer meet the contractual requirements to receive the bonus.

Some of these players don’t appear to be able to read contracts, or are poorly advised. 

Or maybe it’s just more PGA Tour is bad propaganda now the exhibitions have stopped.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Old news! Thoroughly reasonable attitude come tactic by PGAT imo. Neither player has fulfilled the requirement and not likely to do so in the future! They could, of course, sue for it but I strongly suspect they'd lose. Still makes another good snippet to keep LIV in the news though.
		
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Brysons final requirement was to make a 1st tee appearance at a Junior tournament in Dallas, which he was refused permission. 

If you want to defend the PGA over that, good luck. They’ve clearly done it so they can keep his money.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I'm pretty certain that Tiger would get a sponsor's invite from any tournament that he hasn't already got lifetime exemption from! I'm flabbergasted that you'd consider putting Poulter in the same category! wrt LIV.

*There IS an issue of what happens to LIV players, particularly stalwarts or original guys, once they are no longer competitiv*e, especially those who were dropping out of contention anyway (Poulter not really being one of those, but perhaps getting close). But that's their problem, not mine. The Saudis aren't renowned for their sympathetic approach to folk who don't perform to their expectations!
		
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By the sounds of things - the Legends tour will have them! That's what Westwood has been saying..


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

IainP said:



*Not quite following your intention of the 60% stat*. Could you clarify?
Guess 'top players' is also subjective.
Aware that the current nbr 1 has 46 counting events over a 2 year (~ 100 event) period.
		
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K?
The figure was an estimate (guess). But given that the 'top' players play 20-25 tournaments per year with some weeks either Majors, 'season break' or lower level tournaments, that'd be my pick. I wouldn't expect ALL of the top players to be playing the same tournaments - that would only happen in Majors etc - but certainly more than just 1 for the more lucrative or premium ones.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Valdarama severs ties with DP World Tour to align with Liv???

https://www.alistairtaitgolf.com/post/has-valderrama-said-a-sad-adios

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. I don't really understand why it couldn't hold events for both tours but we'll see.
A quote in there I can relate to
"I’ve never been to Saudi Arabia, and wish the House of Saud had never got involved in this royal and ancient game. Ditto for other countries with appalling human rights records staging golf tournaments."
As the saying goes  - in life  happens,  it's how you deal with it that matters.

Future gazing is hard, but reading behind several of Jay's releases, and this from Rory


https://www.reuters.com/article/golf-cjcup-mcilroy-idUKKBN2RE1PF

I wonder if we are heading to a place where the PGA Tour (USA) reduces it schedules to fewer, higher purse events - we have PGAT and LIV mostly alternating on the calendar. Some 'lesser lights' on current PGAT spend more time on DPWT, KF, & Asian Tour, with good showings enabling them to feed into one of the top two.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			K?
The figure was an estimate (guess). But given that the 'top' players play 20-25 tournaments per year with some weeks either Majors, 'season break' or lower level tournaments, that'd be my pick. I wouldn't expect ALL of the top players to be playing the same tournaments - that would only happen in Majors etc - but certainly more than just 1 for the more lucrative or premium ones.
		
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I tried reading it two ways:

Outside of the majors, the top players used to play together for 60% of weeks.

Outside of majors, 60% of top players play each week.

That was my question, 60% of what.

TBH, either way seemed too high to me, and maybe to Rory also...
“We need to get the top guys together more often than we do,” McIlroy said during a media session at the BMW Championship.24 Aug 2022


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			By the sounds of things - the Legends tour will have them! That's what Westwood has been saying..
		
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I've no problem with that. Though, given the Legends Tour's connection with The European Tour, I'm not sure how well that would 'go down'! Likewise, The Champions Tour.


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			I tried reading it two ways:

Outside of the majors, the top players used to play together for 60% of weeks.

Outside of majors, 60% of top players play each week.

That was my question, 60% of what.

TBH, either way seemed too high to me, and maybe to Rory also...
“We need to get the top guys together more often than we do,” McIlroy said during a media session at the BMW Championship.24 Aug 2022
		
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Try....60% of active, non-Major weeks, there's more than 1 top 120 (sort of top 100 non-LIV) players playing in a tournament. Of course, that's not what I believe McIlroy wants, which is a significant number of the top guys playing against each other more often than now


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Valdarama severs ties with DP World Tour to align with Liv???

https://www.alistairtaitgolf.com/post/has-valderrama-said-a-sad-adios

Click to expand...

Perhaps because there's now a significant Spanish group in LIV. Or maybe LIV were prompted by unhappiness with how the (Spanish) winner was treated this year.
I agree that it could have events for both tours, though don't know any course that does that.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2022)

McIlroys and many other wish is much more simple to me. We get bogged down too much on individual tournaments, and start comparing how many top players play in each one and how many do not.

But, it is not really about stand alone tournaments. What McIlroy wants is all the top players competing together on a single tour. A tour that is the ultimate destination for the up and coming great golfers of the future to want to get to, and the current best golfers to be members of. How the members of that tour decide to allocate their schedule is largely up to them. There are events nearly every single week, so clearly it is not realistic to have them play in every event. Therefore, at certain times of year, the events are better suited for the lesser golfers on the tour to compete and try and improve their standing in golf, with a sprinkling of higher quality golfers. While, at other times of the year, the events will be made up of many of the best golfers, especially around the Major season.

So, with LIV just coming along and buying their way into professional golf, they have clearly shaken things up, and in a way that many will see unfair (they've not earned their place via golf, they just got their wallets out) and damaging to golf. Firstly, players have joined the tour randomly and by invite. If LIV had signed up the top 48 players in the world at the time in the rankings, and lined all their pockets, we could all agree it is pretty much the strongest field they could get. And yet, how would that be fair? What about the golfers sat 49th and worse? What about young prodigies further down the rankings, but about to shoot up towards the top 10 by doing well in events with other top players in them? At what point would they get their chance in LIV, and who would LIV axe? Would it be decided in a boardroom somewhere? Therefore, even if the quality of field when LIV began could not be questioned, the sporting side of it could still be questioned. Quite easily.

I still think it has been dreadfully organised. Had they had a system in which all 48 golfers had to qualify, and adjusted the format in ways in which they better meet World Ranking Points criteria, they could surely have been in a better position? Once they know their 48 qualifiers, it is true that many might still say No due to a concern about upsetting the PGA Tour, which understandably they will have some loyalty to (they've done well after all). However, LIV could then have just offered the big sign on fees to the top guys who qualified to tempt them. Forget offering Mickleson £200 million. Offer that to McIlroy. If he says no, go down to the next on the list, offer him that, and so on. Once they get one guy, offer the next guy $150 million. And so on. Perhaps the sign on fees wouldn't even need to be as high, but they could have made prize money even higher.

Yes, there may still be some that don't like LIV, especially those with a true allegiance to the PGA Tour. But, many of the good arguments that they have against LIV would be non-existent. Instead, it would probably be more about sportswashing and any dislikes with variations in format. Sportswashing is a weaker argument, as nobody is whiter than white when it comes to that.


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## AussieKB (Nov 2, 2022)

Sportswashing is a weaker argument, as nobody is whiter than white when it comes to that. 

I agree totally.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 2, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not poor at all if the players no longer meet the contractual requirements to receive the bonus.

Some of these players don’t appear to be able to read contracts, or are poorly advised.

Or maybe it’s just *more PGA Tour is bad propaganda* now the exhibitions have stopped.
		
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I think that we can expect plenty of that the next four months of LIV downtime.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I think that we can expect plenty of that the next four months of LIV downtime.
		
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I'm surprised none of them signed up to I'm a Celebrity. They've nothing to do for a few months, so it has come at a perfect time. I think contestants get generous appearance fees as well


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## PieMan (Nov 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm surprised none of them signed up to I'm a Celebrity. They've nothing to do for a few months, so it has come at a perfect time. I think contestants get generous appearance fees as well 

Click to expand...

Bush tucker trials for OWGR points..........!


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## Dando (Nov 2, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Bush tucker trials for OWGR points..........! 

Click to expand...

people would vote for Patrick Read to do them all, although i doubt he'd turned his nose up to any of it


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## Bdill93 (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I've no problem with that. Though, given the Legends Tour's connection with The European Tour, I'm not sure how well that would 'go down'! Likewise, The Champions Tour.
		
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I think that's what the articles are about.. Westwood in disbelief he's actually been invited to play...


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2022)

I see Pat has rejuvenated his law suit against various people and companies including Fox Sports..aren't LIV supposed to ve negotiating a deal with them..?
That could sour the relationship


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## cleveland52 (Nov 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I see Pat has rejuvenated his law suit against various people and companies including Fox Sports..aren't LIV supposed to ve negotiating a deal with them..?
That could *sour the relationship*

Click to expand...

LIV's bullying tactics continue.....Maybe a lawsuit will persuade Fox to come to the table and renegotiate their position. All these lawsuits are certainly souring me.

Are you certain that he decided to sue Fox sport?


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			McIlroys and many other wish is much more simple to me. We get bogged down too much on individual tournaments, and start comparing how many top players play in each one and how many do not.

But, it is not really about stand alone tournaments. *What McIlroy wants is all the top players competing together on a single tour*. A tour that is the ultimate destination for the up and coming great golfers of the future to want to get to, and the current best golfers to be members of. How the members of that tour decide to allocate their schedule is largely up to them. There are events nearly every single week, so clearly it is not realistic to have them play in every event. Therefore, at certain times of year, the events are better suited for the lesser golfers on the tour to compete and try and improve their standing in golf, with a sprinkling of higher quality golfers. While, at other times of the year, the events will be made up of many of the best golfers, especially around the Major season.
...... .
		
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Probably most would go for that. Personally would prefer that tour to not be the PGA Tour (USA), or LIV.

On reflection I'd quite like just a load of individual tournaments  - so run like the majors, independently, but not on the same scale. Each tournament could choose their criteria and the players could be truly independent.   #pipedream 😂


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## Ian_George (Nov 2, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			LIV's bullying tactics continue.....Maybe a lawsuit will persuade Fox to come to the table and renegotiate their position. All these lawsuits are certainly souring me.

Are you certain that he decided to sue Fox sport?
		
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https://www.golfwrx.com/699133/patr...nother-defamation-lawsuit-against-golf-media/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Klayman


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## cleveland52 (Nov 2, 2022)

Ian_George said:



https://www.golfwrx.com/699133/patr...nother-defamation-lawsuit-against-golf-media/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Klayman

Click to expand...

Thanks. It just seems so ridiculous...Sorta hard to believe.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 3, 2022)

Liv targeting 4 Golfers from the OWGR top 15.

Defo
Cantlay and Xander are 2 for sure. 
They would want to be on the same team as their best mates. 

Other targets must be
Hiovland
Finau
Morikawa
Burns

All the others have nailed their flag to the PGA mast.. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63441853


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

I see Bubba has admitted he received appearance money behind closed doors for playing on the PGA Tour, so the jeopordy of the cut was irrelevant to him, and I'd imagine quite a few others.
Looks like the concept of Exhibition Golf is nothing new then.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv targeting 4 Golfers from the OWGR top 15.

Defo
Cantlay and Xander are 2 for sure. 
They would want to be on the same team as their best mates. 

Other targets must be
Hiovland
Finau
Morikawa
Burns

All the others have nailed their flag to the PGA mast.. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63441853

Click to expand...

I'll believe it when it happens. Back in August all the talk from the LIV fans, on here and all over social media, was of an "exodus" of PGA players leaving to join LIV after "going through the motions" at the FedEx, and that never happened. At the same time Greg Norman was saying that he had agents of top 40 players calling him but they were full for 2023 and it was too late.

Wouldn't surprise me if a few more did move across but your comment about being on the same team as they are mates just proves to me that LIV isn't serious golf. It's a few mates having a knock around and a bit of a giggle.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I see Bubba has admitted he received appearance money behind closed doors for playing on the PGA Tour, so the jeopordy of the cut was irrelevant to him, and I'd imagine quite a few others.
Looks like the concept of Exhibition Golf is nothing new then.
		
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Top PGA players have always received appeearence money for certain events since the days of Jack Nicklaus.

To imply the PGA Tour is an exhibition tour in any shape or form is just plain stupid.

Liv will in my opinion prove itself over time and continue to get stronger but the 2 tours will always be very different, sooner everyone accepts that and concentrates on the positives of either... the better


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'll believe it when it happens. Back in August all the talk from the LIV fans, on here and all over social media, was of an "exodus" of PGA players leaving to join LIV after "going through the motions" at the FedEx, and that never happened. At the same time Greg Norman was saying that he had agents of top 40 players calling him but they were full for 2023 and it was too late.

Wouldn't surprise me if a few more did move across but your comment about being on the same team as they are mates just proves to me that LIV isn't serious golf. It's a few mates having a knock around and a bit of a giggle.
		
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The comment was because they are long term Presidents Cup partners and like playing together on a team.  👍

They can/will continue that on Liv


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I see Bubba has admitted he received appearance money behind closed doors for playing on the PGA Tour, so the jeopordy of the cut was irrelevant to him, and I'd imagine quite a few others.
Looks like the concept of Exhibition Golf is nothing new then.
		
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Appearance fees seemed so common I didn’t even realise it was against pgat rules for a player to get an appearance fee. The subtle difference being

Pgat appearance fee rule; (not a quote)
_You can’t get a fee from a sponsor to play a pgat event but… you can get a fee from a sponsor to appear in a sponsor tent after playing at a pgat event you weren’t otherwise gonna play  _


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## AussieKB (Nov 3, 2022)

I thought it was common knowledge that you had to pay to get certain players to appear at your event, even though it was against the rules, just another PGAT rule that nobody bothers with.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 3, 2022)

And so continues the slow drip of anti PGA propaganda. 

I presume Bubba was ok with breaking the rules whilst he was pocketing the cash.

I wonder if the good lord was ok with him breaking the rules to line his pockets! Isn’t greed a big no no?


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## Backsticks (Nov 3, 2022)

Yes, LIV is 'targeting' four golfers.

They suffered from the dearth of signups after the end of the Fedex cup, which they had flagged as being a milestone for jumpers from the pgat. Damp squib.

And nothing has happened since for them. So need to get some rumours going and get some clickbait headlines to remind people they are still there, and that next years line up might have a better field than this years missfire.

So they are targeting.

I am 'targeting' getting to scratch before the end of the year. I dont see any impediment in my current hi being 12.6.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Top PGA players have always received appeearence money for certain events since the days of Jack Nicklaus.

To imply the PGA Tour is an exhibition tour in any shape or form is just plain stupid.

Liv will in my opinion prove itself over time and continue to get stronger but the 2 tours will always be very different, sooner everyone accepts that and concentrates on the positives of either... the better
		
Click to expand...

Well, the argument about guaranteed money making a mockery of the competitive element of LIV has been pretty strong on here, if Bubba and many others have been in that position on the PGA tour, it’s the same argument.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, the argument about guaranteed money making a mockery of the competitive element of LIV has been pretty strong on here, if Bubba and many others have been in that position on the PGA tour, it’s the same argument.
		
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Do appearance fees count towards the points needed to retain a tour card?


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## JamesR (Nov 3, 2022)

I read an interesting idea in the opposition's magazine...

Shorten the PGA/Euro tours, and then have the top payers from the tours qualify for the LIV tour, for the season end. Those that want to play can do, and those that don't can stay at home etc

That way both PGA/ET & LIV can exist in harmony.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Do appearance fees count towards the points needed to retain a tour card?
		
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Bit of a daft question. Aside from perhaps Tiger recently, who would be getting appearance money that isn’t good enough to retain their card?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Bit of a daft question. Aside from perhaps Tiger recently, who would be getting appearance money that isn’t good enough to retain their card?
		
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So they still need to play well and make cuts regardless of the appearance money? See the difference?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			So they still need to play well and make cuts regardless of the appearance money? See the difference?
		
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Players need to play well on LIV to retain their status for the following year, regardless of the money. 

What’s your point?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Players need to play well on LIV to retain their status for the following year, regardless of the money.

What’s your point?
		
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That's not entirely true though. They arent cutting the guys who got paid to join. Poulter, Westwood, Mickleson, Bryson... all been average but going nowhere I bet


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Players need to play well on LIV to retain their status for the following year, regardless of the money.
...
		
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So the huge sign-on fees or guaranteed money would simply be written off for those players that don't?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			That's not entirely true though. They arent cutting the guys who got paid to join. Poulter, Westwood, Mickleson, Bryson... all been average but going nowhere I bet
		
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No they aren’t, it wouldn’t make sense to kick those guys off when they are the household names within the series. As I said the other day, these guys are stakeholders and responsible for building the series in the coming years. 
In time I’d imagine the qualification becomes just as relevant as on any other tour, where of course, exemptions are regularly made to get non qualified players into events.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			So the huge sign-on fees or guaranteed money would simply be written off for those players that don't?
		
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See my previous post.


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			See my previous post.
		
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I did! Doesn't answer my question! FWIW, to answer it 'fully', you would have to either be *guessing* at how failure to perform is handled or far more info than seems to be available on the info freely available - aka have insider knowledge! Which is it? Or can you point to the bits of documentation that I've missed?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No they aren’t, it wouldn’t make sense to kick those guys off when they are the household names within the series. As I said the other day, these guys are stakeholders and responsible for building the series in the coming years.
In time I’d imagine the qualification becomes just as relevant as on any other tour, where of course, exemptions are regularly made to get non qualified players into events.
		
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Your points rubbish mate. Basically they're stuck with the guys they've paid despite them not being competitive. 

That's more harmful than good to LIV in my eyes - they should be after the best golfing product they can offer and should not bank on the celebrity status of the signed guys growing the game alone.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Your points rubbish mate. Basically they're stuck with the guys they've paid despite them not being competitive.

That's more harmful than good to LIV in my eyes - they should be after the best golfing product they can offer and should not bank on the celebrity status of the signed guys growing the game alone.
		
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Who are they stuck with that’s rubbish?

Phil will be a non playing captain the minute his team has 4 players that exceed his own ability, his role will be to act as a representative of his team, and LIV.

The money spent on recruiting these players isn’t based on their value as golfers, it’s based on their value to LIV.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Who are they stuck with that’s rubbish*?

Phil will be a non playing captain the minute his team has 4 players that exceed his own ability, his role will be to act as a representative of his team, and LIV.

The money spent on recruiting these players isn’t based on their value as golfers, it’s based on their value to LIV.
		
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Everyone I named hasn't been relevant in final leaderboards.... 

So they paid 150 mill for Phil to basically become another Norman in 12 months time?


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Who are they stuck with that’s rubbish?

Phil will be a non playing captain the minute his team has 4 players that exceed his own ability, his role will be to act as a representative of his team, and LIV.

The money spent on recruiting these players isn’t based on their value as golfers, it’s based on their value to LIV.
		
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See my update to the post you quoted. I'm not actually interested in the Team aspect of LIV though can imagine it being a marketing or funding tool! Though being non-playing captain does seem to be the definition of 'rubbish - simply picking up at least $120K a dozen times a year!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Everyone I named hasn't been relevant in final leaderboards....

So they paid 150 mill for Phil to basically become another Norman in 12 months time?
		
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Phil will have been the catalyst for others to join, DJ, Brooks? Who knows. Without Phil, would the series have had the attention it has had this year, I don’t think it would. 
He was an investment for LIV, time will tell if it was a good investment or not. 

As for the players you’ve listed, Westwood could have won in Boston (?) if he’d hit the green with his final approach shot. As it was, he messed up and missed the play off by a shot, but he was definitely contending for the win.


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## Backsticks (Nov 3, 2022)

In addition to prize money as a motivation, pgat players have the reward of the title itself. That is worth a lot to any sports person, and nobody reaches their level of achievement without a very strong competitive mentality and desire to win. Winning a pgat tournament provides that, validates their sporting careers and actualises the fundamental goal they set out to achieve, years or decades earlier. LIV tournaments dont. They are like champions tour wins. Of course Langer, Harrington, etc badly want to win those now. But they are only footnotes to their real career against open fields.


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			.... 
So they paid 150 mill for Phil to basically become another Norman in 12 months time?
		
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I can't ever see him playing that role! He's had chronic 'foot-in-mouth-itus' for years!


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## AussieKB (Nov 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In addition to prize money as a motivation, pgat players have the reward of the title itself. That is worth a lot to any sports person, and nobody reaches their level of achievement without a very strong competitive mentality and desire to win. Winning a pgat tournament provides that, validates their sporting careers and actualises the fundamental goal they set out to achieve, years or decades earlier. LIV tournaments dont. They are like champions tour wins. Of course Langer, Harrington, etc badly want to win those now. But they are only footnotes to their real career against open fields.
		
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Winning a PGAT with 3 top 50 players in it validates your career ?
Am sure their Bank Manager would love that and also the Wife as she goes out shopping.
But like I said earlier there are a lot of players on the PGAT who have won a fortune compared to us and should never want for anything if they invested wisely.

So looking in that display cabinet and I can see the Shriners or Fortinet trophy or a LIV trophy, who really cares,
but a Major is another kettle of fish.

Next year can the PGAT say that the Players is the strongest field in golf ?
IMHO a big fat no, even though I would love to see Cam DJ etc playing in it.


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Winning a PGAT with 3 top 50 players in it validates your career ?
Am sure their Bank Manager would love that and also the Wife as she goes out shopping.
But like I said earlier there are a lot of players on the PGAT who have won a fortune compared to us and should never want for anything if they invested wisely.

So looking in that display cabinet and I can see the Shriners or Fortinet trophy or a LIV trophy, who really cares,
but a Major is another kettle of fish.

Next year can the PGAT say that the Players is the strongest field in golf ?
IMHO a big fat no, even though I would love to see Cam DJ etc playing in it.
		
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Same likely to be said of all the Majors though. Just demonstrates why the split is not good for Golf - and why the Majors body are concerned about it!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			In addition to prize money as a motivation, pgat players have the reward of the title itself. That is worth a lot to any sports person, and nobody reaches their level of achievement without a very strong competitive mentality and desire to win. Winning a pgat tournament provides that, validates their sporting careers and actualises the fundamental goal they set out to achieve, years or decades earlier. LIV tournaments dont. They are like champions tour wins. Of course Langer, Harrington, etc badly want to win those now. But they are only footnotes to their real career against open fields.
		
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That’s a fair point. We regularly see ‘PGA tour wins’ against a player’s credentials. 
What it does show as well is how overvalued some PGA wins are - I’d imagine there are plenty of DP tour events that are harder to win, and should carry more recognition -  but they are in the shadow of much lesser PGA tour events.


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## AussieKB (Nov 3, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Same likely to be said of all the Majors though. Just demonstrates why the split is not good for Golf - and why the Majors body are concerned about it!
		
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So you agree that the Majors should pick the best players to participate, to ensure the integrity of the event ? regardless of where they play.


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So you agree that the Majors should pick the best players to participate, to ensure the integrity of the event ? regardless of where they play.
		
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 NO! But they should set criteria that allows the best players in the world to play and let individuals make personal choices as to what their own priorities are!


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## AussieKB (Nov 3, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			NO! But they should set criteria that allows the best players in the world to play and let individuals make personal choices as to what their own priorities are!
		
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What ????? so you don't want the best players to play in the Majors......


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			What ????? so you don't want the best players to play in the Majors......
		
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I don't actually care that much! I want to see the best players available playing! After all, the best player in the world hasn't completed a competition for a number of years! That hasn't reduced my enjoyment of the Majors though!


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## AussieKB (Nov 3, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I don't actually care that much! I want to see the best players available playing! After all, the best player in the world hasn't completed a competition for a number of years! That hasn't reduced my enjoyment of the Majors though!
		
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If you are talking about Tigger then he is no longer the best player in the world....for a while now.
if the Majors do not accept the best players then they become what ???? exhibition games due to invite only
a bit like the Masters was for long period of time.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If you are talking about Tigger then he is no longer the best player in the world....for a while now.
if the Majors do not accept the best players then they become what ???? exhibition games due to invite only
a bit like the Masters was for long period of time.
		
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Or The Open which often has a club pro or two that has made it through regional qualifying. 

The Players will still have the strongest field even if it’s missing 3 or 4 good players that have gone to LiV.


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If you are talking about Tigger then he is no longer the best player in the world....for a while now.
if the Majors do not accept the best players then they become what ???? exhibition games due to invite only
a bit like the Masters was for long period of time.
		
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LIV has it in its power to provide an environment for it's players, not already qualified, to qualify for the Majors! LIV players should be demanding that LIV does that, not that the Majors should modify their criteria! But, as a disrupter, that's not what LIV is all about imo! So I have no sympathy for them! And FWW, there are plenty of LIV players qualified for Majors! DJ, Cam, BdC, Bubba, Sergio et al! So absence of a couple won't affect my interest in, nor enjoyment of, them!


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## PieMan (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Who are they stuck with that’s rubbish?

Phil will be a non playing captain the minute his team has 4 players that exceed his own ability, his role will be to act as a representative of his team, and LIV.

The money spent on recruiting these players isn’t based on their value as golfers, it’s based on their value to LIV.
		
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Has anyone at LIV told Phil that's the plan for him? He comes across as the kind of guy who thinks he'll still able to compete at the highest level late into his 50s! Or will his team just be a crap Phil, and 3 even worse than him?!!! 

"It's my team and I'm playing"!!!!


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## Depreston (Nov 3, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Has anyone at LIV told Phil that's the plan for him? He comes across as the kind of guy who thinks he'll still able to compete at the highest level late into his 50s! Or will his team just be a crap Phil, and 3 even worse than him?!!!

"It's my team and I'm playing"!!!! 

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they’d probably just drop him and he can take his cash home


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## Ian_George (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Who are they stuck with that’s rubbish?

Phil will be a non playing captain the minute his team has 4 players that exceed his own ability, his role will be to act as a representative of his team, and LIV.

The money spent on recruiting these players isn’t based on their value as golfers, it’s based on their value to LIV.
		
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How will he make any money or get back into the team then? And how will they appoint a player to replace him? The 12 team 48 player member tournament format puts limitations on that side! Though I know not every player plays all tournaments. He still ended up 34th, so isn't really dropping precipitously (in LIV) though certainly hasn't had a great year! Oh and he's 52 now, so not long to his 'late 50s'!


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2022)

DPWT announcements.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/dp...low&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


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## PieMan (Nov 3, 2022)

Depreston said:



			they’d probably just drop him and he can take his cash home
		
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Depends if he has any left or if the bookmaker has it.........!!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			DPWT announcements.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/dp...low&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

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This will be a welcome relief for a lot of pro's who know they are  there making up the numbers a lot of the time. It must be incredibly frustrating reaching a level where you can play on an elite tour, but could potentially be out of pocket at the end of the year.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 3, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			What ????? so you don't want the best players to play in the Majors......
		
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I'd love the best players in the world time playing in the majors.  But if they choose not to not to try and meet the qualifying criteria I don't see why that criteria should be changed to suit them.


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## Backsticks (Nov 3, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I'd love the best players in the world time playing in the majors.  But if they choose not to not to try and meet the qualifying criteria I don't see why that criteria should be changed to suit them.
		
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It isnt being changed to suit the players. It will be changed to suit the majors. The majors need the world's best players more than players need the majors. Without the best, they would no longer be majors.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 3, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It isnt being changed to suit the players. It will be changed to suit the majors. The majors need the world's best players more than players need the majors. Without the best, they would no longer be majors.
		
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What player currently on the LIV Series is bigger than the game? Golf is like any other sport; you can only play against the ones that's  there.....


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## 4LEX (Nov 3, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This will be a welcome relief for a lot of pro's who know they are  there making up the numbers a lot of the time. It must be incredibly frustrating reaching a level where you can play on an elite tour, but could potentially be out of pocket at the end of the year.
		
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That's professional sport though. Nothing is guarenteed which makes it exciting. No one forces them to do it, it's their choice. You're either good enough to make a living or you aren't and someone will take your place.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It isnt being changed to suit the players. It will be changed to suit the majors. The majors need the world's best players more than players need the majors. Without the best, they would no longer be majors.
		
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absolutely not, completely wrong way around.

Many majors don't have some top players due to injuries. And you know what, no one cares they are still the majors. If 10-15 top players aren't available, the rest of the world will still be watching. The majors are the biggest tournaments in golf, and something far more drastic than LIV will be needed to change that.

On the other hand golfers are often ranked on their major success in terms of their overall standing and career greatness. If the LIV players do not play in the majors they will massively hurt their own legacies


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## Beezerk (Nov 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			If the LIV players do not play in the majors they will massively hurt their own legacies
		
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Well not really, they’re all just over the hill and passed their best aren’t they, even Cam Smith is just a one season wonder 😬😂


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## LincolnShep (Nov 4, 2022)

Do you think a win in a major where LIV players were excluded (or couldn't qualify due to LIV not being eligible for ranking points) would have an asterisk against it?  A bit like a gold medal at the Moscow Olympics?  Yes, it's a gold medal, but the USA didn't attend so...


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Do you think a win in a major where LIV players were excluded (or couldn't qualify due to LIV not being eligible for ranking points) would have an asterisk against it?  A bit like a gold medal at the Moscow Olympics?  Yes, it's a gold medal, but the USA didn't attend so...
		
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No I don't. Every major in living memory would have had some top player(s) not attending for a multitude of reasons, doesn't mean their is an asterisk against them, or it would literally be on every major championship.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Do you think a win in a major where LIV players were excluded (or couldn't qualify due to LIV not being eligible for ranking points) would have an asterisk against it?  A bit like a gold medal at the Moscow Olympics?  Yes, it's a gold medal, but the USA didn't attend so...
		
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Not at all. Would you * any major that was won with Tiger not playing when he was injured?


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## Beezerk (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Do you think a win in a major where LIV players were excluded (or couldn't qualify due to LIV not being eligible for ranking points) would have an asterisk against it?  A bit like a gold medal at the Moscow Olympics?  Yes, it's a gold medal, but the USA didn't attend so...
		
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I recall DJ missed the Masters when he was a real hot streak, Tiger missed majors with injuries and self inflicted issues. I’m struggling to think of a major where 4 or 5 real contenders were missing for whatever reason.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 4, 2022)

Yes, players miss majors, that's a given, but in such numbers??  Lets do a thought experiment:

Scenario A: Rory wins the Masters but all the other competitors are outside the Top 100, people will remember it for the time that Rory was unopposed, they will consider it a lesser achievement.
Scenario B: Rory wins the Masters but Jon Rahm is missing through injury, pretty sure nobody will consider that "lesser" because, as has been pointed out, there is always someone missing.

Logically, there has to be a sliding scale between A and B.  At some point, the win goes from being celebrated, to being asterisked.  I'm just wondering where that point is.  How many of the best golfers in the world need to be missing before the achievement of winning is downgraded?  I don't know the answer but there must be one - and the major championships are going to need to come to their own conclusions about what it is.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 4, 2022)

Doesn’t matter what people on here think. 
If the worlds best golfers are refused entry to an event (because that’s the scenario that we’d have to be facing) - then it devalues that event. There’s a few already on the PGA tour where the current winners can’t play, and the Ryder Cup is facing the same fate.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Doesn’t matter what people on here think.
If the worlds best golfers are refused entry to an event (because that’s the scenario that we’d have to be facing) - then it devalues that event. There’s a few already on the PGA tour where the current winners can’t play, and the Ryder Cup is facing the same fate.
		
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Firstly they are not refused entry.

They do not qualify for entry, much like I do not qualify for entry. This is the choice of the players, they knew or should have known that going to a tour with no ranking points may affect their chances of qualification.

Secondly, people outside of the LIV fanboys will not care and watch and be drawn into the the majors once they are on


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Yes, players miss majors, that's a given, but in such numbers??  Lets do a thought experiment:

Scenario A: Rory wins the Masters but all the other competitors are outside the Top 100, people will remember it for the time that Rory was unopposed, they will consider it a lesser achievement.
Scenario B: Rory wins the Masters but Jon Rahm is missing through injury, pretty sure nobody will consider that "lesser" because, as has been pointed out, there is always someone missing.

Logically, there has to be a sliding scale between A and B.  At some point, the win goes from being celebrated, to being asterisked.  I'm just wondering where that point is.  How many of the best golfers in the world need to be missing before the achievement of winning is downgraded?  I don't know the answer but there must be one - and the major championships are going to need to come to their own conclusions about what it is.
		
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Most of the top LIV players have qualified for most of the upcoming majors anyway haven't they. Mickelson, Johnson, Reed, Garcia all have life time exemption to the Masters, and I am not certain but presume that as they have won majors recently have exemption to all majors for a few years, which also applies to Smith and BDC.

The question then is which LIV players will be missing that is going to make a massive impact on the field. Players like Westwood, Poulter etc were very unlikely to be challenging anyway so no real loss in terms of "devaluing" the major


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## LincolnShep (Nov 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Most of the top LIV players have qualified for most of the upcoming majors anyway haven't they. Mickelson, Johnson, Reed, Garcia all have life time exemption to the Masters, and I am not certain but presume that as they have won majors recently have exemption to all majors for a few years, which also applies to Smith and BDC.

The question then is which LIV players will be missing that is going to make a massive impact on the field. Players like Westwood, Poulter etc were very unlikely to be challenging anyway so no real loss in terms of "devaluing" the major
		
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That might well be the case for the short term but I'm not talking about individual players, or what happens this year.  If we have a future where the world's best are split between two tours (arguably three, but the DPWT is a distant third) then the majors are going to want to ensure that they can continue to celebrate the world's best players - all of them.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			That might well be the case for the short term but I'm not talking about individual players, or what happens this year.  If we have a future where the world's best are split between two tours (arguably three, but the DPWT is a distant third) then the majors are going to want to ensure that they can continue to celebrate the world's best players - all of them.
		
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I am presuming in the long term, if LIV is still going in this format that they will have made the required changes in order to get ranking points in which case, problem solved and the majors will be made up of the qualifiers as per their entry requirements. If LIV has not made the changes and still does not have ranking points, then anyone new going over as forfeited their rights to play in the majors, though I think if this is the case that LIV in it's current guise will fold as I doubt PIF will want to keep sinking $billions in a golf tour with no major representation


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## AussieKB (Nov 4, 2022)

“I’m looking forward to seeing Cam Smith tee-up around 9.40am on the first day of The Open next year,” Slumbers added. 

Enough said about The Open....but what of the others if they decide to exclude LIV players ?
will they still be Majors where the best players in the World are supposed to compete.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			“I’m looking forward to seeing Cam Smith tee-up around 9.40am on the first day of The Open next year,” Slumbers added.

Enough said about The Open....but what of the others if they decide to exclude LIV players ?
will they still be Majors where the best players in the World are supposed to compete.
		
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Will they still be majors? yes absolutely they will

With various exemptions in the qualifying criteria, it will be many years before the majors do not have the top LIV players playing in them anyway


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## AussieKB (Nov 4, 2022)

I still struggle to to understand how people do not want the best players to appear in the Majors.....


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Yes, players miss majors, that's a given, but in such numbers??  Lets do a thought experiment:

Scenario A: Rory wins the Masters but all the other competitors are outside the Top 100, people will remember it for the time that Rory was unopposed, they will consider it a lesser achievement.
Scenario B: Rory wins the Masters but Jon Rahm is missing through injury, pretty sure nobody will consider that "lesser" because, as has been pointed out, there is always someone missing.

Logically, there has to be a sliding scale between A and B.  At some point, the win goes from being celebrated, to being asterisked.  I'm just wondering where that point is.  How many of the best golfers in the world need to be missing before the achievement of winning is downgraded?  I don't know the answer but there must be one - and the major championships are going to need to come to their own conclusions about what it is.
		
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There would be an asterisk if the pgatour boycott the majors in 2023 due to the fact that LIV players are allowed to play in them.


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Firstly they are not refused entry.

They do not qualify for entry, much like I do not qualify for entry. This is the choice of the players, they knew or should have known that going to a tour with no ranking points may affect their chances of qualification.
		
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According to a qualification criteria written when LIV didnt even exist !
So of course the existing system excludes them, and is thus obsolete.
20 of the top 100 golfer are playing on Liv. Majors are devalued if a significant portion of them, and not just those with legacy qualification routes of recent major winners, are not in the field. (the comparison with injured players not weakening a field is as weak a case as I have heard).

Majors will not be majors next year if Cantlay, Hovland, Schauffle, Homa, Finau, etc jumped to Liv and did not all have automatic entry to the big field three, and most of them to the masters.

But have no fear. If that type of group defected, the rules for majors automatic entry would be revised quicker than they had even teed up in a LIV tourny.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



*I still struggle to to understand how people do not want the best players to appear in the Majors.....*

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Because they went to a tour that don't meet the criteria. Now, ask a friend to explain this to you.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It isnt being changed to suit the players. It will be changed to suit the majors. The majors need the world's best players more than players need the majors. Without the best, they would no longer be majors.
		
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And if that is what happens I will say far enough, it's the constant carping by those that have left the established tours that riles me and most of those that are not fully supportive of LiV.   They made their bed they should lie in it.  Personally, I don't think the Majors will change their criteria and without big changes to LiV neither will the OWGR,  but let's see what develops.


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## AussieKB (Nov 4, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Because they went to a tour that don't meet the criteria. Now, ask a friend to explain this to you.
		
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Still struggle with this argument......
What ever sport is being played I want to see the best playing it....but that's me.


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

For anyone in any doubt of that, imagine if the remainder of the top 50 owgr jumped, so LIV has the best 50 golfers.
Only the existing major winners among them are in the majors. They misfire. But no matter, the cream of non major winners in the field rose to the top and Denny McCarthy beats Adri Arnaus for the claret jug  ? Champion golfer of the Year my ass.


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## SteveJay (Nov 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Majors will not be majors next year if Cantlay, Hovland, Schauffle, Homa, Finau, etc jumped to Liv and did not all have automatic entry to the big field three, and most of them to the masters.
		
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The Majors are "majors" because of their history. They can't suddenly not be majors next year. Just like LIV suggesting they create a Major of their own will not suddenly gain the same status. Maybe in 50 years or so it might have done so, but it can't be instantaneous for either to lose, or gain, long established tradition and status.


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Still struggle with this argument......
What ever sport is being played I want to see the best playing it....but that's me.
		
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Even the ones who knowingly disqualify themselves?  To me, that's a decision *they've* made, so I've no problem with them being absent!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Doesn’t matter what people on here think.
If the worlds best golfers are refused entry to an event (because that’s the scenario that we’d have to be facing) - then it devalues that event. There’s a few already on the PGA tour where the current winners can’t play, and the Ryder Cup is facing the same fate.
		
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I did laugh at this post.

Open up by telling us that it doesn't matter what people in here think. Then you follow that up by telling us what you think.


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			The Majors are "majors" because of their history. They can't suddenly not be majors next year. Just like LIV suggesting they create a Major of their own will not suddenly gain the same status. Maybe in 50 years or so it might have done so, but it can't be instantaneous for either to lose, or gain, long established tradition and status.
		
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Yes, they are majors because of their history...of being contested for by the worlds best golfers. That is what made them majors. If you no longer ensure it is contested for by the best, then major status becomes historical. To repeat, no major will risk harming their position by excluding anyone.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I did laugh at this post.

Open up by telling us that it doesn't matter what people in here think. Then you follow that up by telling us what you think.
		
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Well, it’s true, it matters not what I think anymore than it does you. What matters is the thoughts of those in charge of the majors, and they will want the best players in the world, in their events, to appease their backers. Pelley has already confirmed the position of The Open, and I’d expect the others to folllow suit.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I still struggle to to understand how people do not want the best players to appear in the Majors.....
		
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You are adding 2+2 and getting 74

Everyone, and I mean everyone would want the all the best players playing in the majors.

What some are saying is that they don't want it so much that they would be willing to


Backsticks said:



			Yes, they are majors because of their history...of being contested for by the worlds best golfers. That is what made them majors. If you no longer ensure it is contested for by the best, then major status becomes historical. To repeat, no major will risk harming their position by excluding anyone.
		
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IF, and a big IF the majors refused to admit the best players for say 20 years then yes maybe they would lose their "major" tag. But not for one year, especially as most of the LIV top players are already qualified


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## Aztecs27 (Nov 4, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Even the ones who knowingly disqualify themselves?  To me, that's a decision *they've* made, so I've no problem with them being absent!
		
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Basically this. They knew the risks when they shipped off to LIV...*IT. WAS. THEIR. DECISION. *If they miss out because of a decision they've made, that's on them, not anyone else.

Not really sure how much simpler to make the argument.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

So let's try and make some sense of this. Nothing is currently certain for the 2023 majors - is everyone agreed on that?  (yes the Open have indicated no ban, and hinted but nothing more)

Each major can make some decisions along the lines of:
A) ban players who have turned out for LIV
B) alter their criteria to acknowledge LIV
C) no ban, but leave the criteria as previous years

IMO,
 if A (ban), then there is an argument for the asterisk
 for B & C in reality the wider golf watching public will likely have differing options depending on how they view the players who just make it in or out & the rights and wrongs of decisions made. Either way there are likely be disappointed players around the "cusp positions".


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## Swango1980 (Nov 4, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well, it’s true, it matters not what I think anymore than it does you. What matters is the thoughts of those in charge of the majors, and they will want the best players in the world, in their events, to appease their backers. Pelley has already confirmed the position of The Open, and I’d expect the others to follow suit.
		
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So, you are still telling us what you think, by telling us what you think the people in charge of the Majors think. Are you giving your own opinion, or the opinion of others? Have you spoken to them?

At any rate, 100% of people in here are fully aware that those responsible for the Majors want the best players playing (in fact, you could say that for any tournament organiser to be honest). So, that is not a point that really needs to be made. The question is, will they change their qualification criteria to suit LIV players? And, if they do, what reaction would all players, other than the 48 playing LIV, feel? Outside those 48, golfers have to effectively play for their career, and elevate themselves amongst their peers. So, if someone just misses out on a Major, but someone from LIV just squeezes in, having played in limited field sizes, limited rounds and no real risk of losing their LIV tour card, will all the golfers outside LIV be comfortable with that?

I'm sure someone has done the research (maybe even mentioned it), how many of the LIV golfers still qualify for Majors based on their performances pre-LIV (i.e. how many will be able to tee it up next year, event if they plummet down the world rankings)? Who are the big names that don't qualify, and need the ranking points?


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			IF, and a big IF the majors refused to admit the best players for say 20 years then yes maybe they would lose their "major" tag. But not for one year, especially as most of the LIV top players are already qualified
		
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Yes, fair enough. The situation would be recoverable if it were only for a year or two. The 'winners' in those years though would still be lame duck champions, and wouldnt have real major winner status in the eyes of posterity.


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## Aztecs27 (Nov 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, you are still telling us what you think, by telling us what you think the people in charge of the Majors think. Are you giving your own opinion, or the opinion of others? Have you spoken to them?

*At any rate, 100% of people in here are fully aware that those responsible for the Majors want the best players playing (in fact, you could say that for any tournament organiser to be honest). So, that is not a point that really needs to be made. The question is, will they change their qualification criteria to suit LIV players? And, if they do, what reaction would all players, other than the 48 playing LIV, feel? Outside those 48, golfers have to effectively play for their career, and elevate themselves amongst their peers. So, if someone just misses out on a Major, but someone from LIV just squeezes in, having played in limited field sizes, limited rounds and no real risk of losing their LIV tour card, will all the golfers outside LIV be comfortable with that?*

I'm sure someone has done the research (maybe even mentioned it), how many of the LIV golfers still qualify for Majors based on their performances pre-LIV (i.e. how many will be able to tee it up next year, event if they plummet down the world rankings)? Who are the big names that don't qualify, and need the ranking points?
		
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This is an excellent point. If I play on the PGA Tour (because I choose to play there), why should I miss out on a place in a major because someone who's playing exhibition golf on 3-round, no-cut tournaments gets a spot instead? 

I genuinely think if the LIV format followed a more traditional competition (4 rounds with cut), but with their own tweaks, there wouldn't be half the debate about exclusions from majors and it would make it a lot simpler to implement earning OWGR points.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			This is an excellent point. If I play on the PGA Tour (because I choose to play there), why should I miss out on a place in a major because someone who's playing exhibition golf on 3-round, no-cut tournaments gets a spot instead?

I genuinely think if the LIV format followed a more traditional competition (4 rounds with cut), but with their own tweaks, there wouldn't be half the debate about exclusions from majors and it would make it a lot simpler to implement earning OWGR points.
		
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Right! LIV series should follow the criteria to play in the majors.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			This is an excellent point. If I play on the PGA Tour (because I choose to play there), why should I miss out on a place in a major because someone who's playing *exhibition golf on 3-round, no-cut tournaments* gets a spot instead?

I genuinely think if the LIV format followed a more traditional competition (4 rounds with cut), but with their own tweaks, there wouldn't be half the debate about exclusions from majors and it would make it a lot simpler to implement earning OWGR points.
		
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Just on the highlighted item, see this on social media a lot. 
Raises the question - what actually is "exhibition golf"? Is there an agreed definition?
I searched the internet and found this....

-----------
The two blockbuster exhibition matches the last two weeks have shown that televised golf at a high level can be safely played -- with four competitors.

Tiger Woods and Peyton Manning defeated Phil Mickelson and Tom Brady 1-up on Sunday at the Medalist Golf Club in Hobe Sound in the “Champions for Charity” match that pitted the two major golf champions and the two Super Bowl quarterbacks.

Last week, Rory McIlroy and Dustin Johnson beat Rickie Fowler and Matthew Wolff in a skins game that lasted 19 holes and was won by McIlroy on a closest-to-the-pin tiebreaker, with six skins on the line.
------------
People are more than entitled to dislike LIV golf of course, but I don't currently follow the exhibition label for a strokeplay competition where every shot counts.

The no cut, 3 round stuff isn't really worth re-visiting - as that has been done to death already, and everyone knows neither matter to the OWGR.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just on the highlighted item, see this on social media a lot.
Raises the question - what actually is "exhibition golf"? Is there an agreed definition?
I searched the internet and found this....

-----------
The two blockbuster exhibition matches the last two weeks have shown that televised golf at a high level can be safely played -- with four competitors.

Tiger Woods and Peyton Manning defeated Phil Mickelson and Tom Brady 1-up on Sunday at the Medalist Golf Club in Hobe Sound in the “Champions for Charity” match that pitted the two major golf champions and the two Super Bowl quarterbacks.

Last week, Rory McIlroy and Dustin Johnson beat Rickie Fowler and Matthew Wolff in a skins game that lasted 19 holes and was won by McIlroy on a closest-to-the-pin tiebreaker, with six skins on the line.
------------
People are more than entitled to dislike LIV golf of course,* but I don't currently follow the exhibition label for a strokeplay competition where every shot counts.*

The no cut, 3 round stuff isn't really worth re-visiting - as that has been done to death already, and everyone knows neither matter to the OWGR.
		
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What about WGC match-play competitions then?

I'd liken LIV with exhibition golf, primarily because it is effectively an invitational. Golfers get paid (handsomely), no matter how badly they play, so there is no real jeopardy to playing. This extends to the entire tour, rather than just even the individual competitions within the tour.


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## Aztecs27 (Nov 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What about WGC match-play competitions then?

I'd liken LIV with exhibition golf, primarily because it is effectively an invitational. Golfers get paid (handsomely), no matter how badly they play, so there is no real jeopardy to playing. This extends to the entire tour, rather than just even the individual competitions within the tour.
		
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Exactly this. It's not like they're being paid a couple of £1000 per tournament to appear. They're invited and paid A LOT to play golf. If they win, then they win EVEN MORE and if they don't win, they can still fund their kids and grandkids through University. Win-Win.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What about WGC match-play competitions then?

I'd liken LIV with exhibition golf, primarily because it is effectively an invitational. Golfers get paid (handsomely), no matter how badly they play, so there is no real jeopardy to playing. This extends to the entire tour, rather than just even the individual competitions within the tour.
		
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Thanks. Yes I agree the matchplay you mentioned is not exhibition. I was meaning it isn't skins or 4BBB.
I acknowledge you inserted the "handsomely", is that to differentiate from the variations of "paid no matter" on the other tours. I.e. is there a specific value cut off?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just on the highlighted item, see this on social media a lot.
Raises the question - what actually is "exhibition golf"? Is there an agreed definition?
I searched the internet and found this....

-----------
The two blockbuster exhibition matches the last two weeks have shown that televised golf at a high level can be safely played -- with four competitors.

Tiger Woods and Peyton Manning defeated Phil Mickelson and Tom Brady 1-up on Sunday at the Medalist Golf Club in Hobe Sound in the “Champions for Charity” match that pitted the two major golf champions and the two Super Bowl quarterbacks.

Last week, Rory McIlroy and Dustin Johnson beat Rickie Fowler and Matthew Wolff in a skins game that lasted 19 holes and was won by McIlroy on a closest-to-the-pin tiebreaker, with six skins on the line.
------------
People are more than entitled to dislike LIV golf of course, but I don't currently follow the exhibition label for a strokeplay competition where every shot counts.

The no cut, 3 round stuff isn't really worth re-visiting - as that has been done to death already, and everyone knows neither matter to the OWGR.
		
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People can explain Exhibition golf to you.....but the question is *"Would you believe them"*


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Exactly this. It's not like they're being paid a couple of £1000 per tournament to appear. They're invited and paid A LOT to play golf. If they win, then they win EVEN MORE and if they don't win, they can still fund their kids and grandkids through University. Win-Win.
		
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Plus, I liken LIV golf to a traveling circus ......in which the outcome could be manipulated if the owner chose to do so. Players are hand chosen in a closed shop.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 4, 2022)

Surely the circus is where the Tiger is wheeled out to entertain the gullible spectators every now and again.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Exactly this. It's not like they're being paid a couple of £1000 per tournament to appear. They're invited and paid A LOT to play golf. If they win, then they win EVEN MORE and if they don't win, they can still fund their kids and grandkids through University. Win-Win.
		
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Thank, so if I have followed you have two angles  - the amount of money, and the invite piece.
Liv Boston:
1st prize $4,000,000
Last spot   $120,000
To cherry pick an extreme example  - the Tour Championship 
1st prize $18,000,000
Last spot     $500,000
Certainly agree, all that is money I struggle to comprehend.
The invite side I can follow more easily  - it is a weak spot for LIV, a mixed bag.  Some players have qualified, Vincent  Harding, Otaegui etc. And some have been the high profile start up names. I follow that not being liked.
Going back to the majors, if they aren't playing well then they wouldn't qualify would they?


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## JamesR (Nov 4, 2022)

Rocco’s take:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588505131980570624


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			People can explain Exhibition golf to you.....but the question is *"Would you believe them"*

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Seems an odd question. It isn't about whether the world is flat or not  - I asked a genuine question try better understand someones _opinion_. 
I have "no skin in this game".


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			...
The no cut, 3 round stuff isn't really worth re-visiting - as that has been done to death already, and everyone knows neither matter to the OWGR.
		
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Except that's exactly what will prevent LIV from getting OWGR accreditation, so it *does* matter! And there are good reasons why! There's no reason - except ego or deliberate policy - why LIV can't comply with OWGR and continue with the current format as their main style.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Rocco’s take:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588505131980570624

Click to expand...

I always liked Rocco, and now I like him a little bit more.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I still struggle to to understand how people do not want the best players to appear in the Majors.....
		
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I struggle to understand how people don't understand the LIV players brought it on themselves; no one forced them to go.  They're like people who buy a house near an airport because it's cheap and then try to get the airport shut because of the noise of the planes; do your homework & see what you're jumping into, don't just look at the money.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Except that's exactly what will prevent LIV from getting OWGR accreditation, so it *does* matter! And there are good reasons why! There's no reason - except ego or deliberate policy - why LIV can't comply with OWGR and continue with the current format as their main style.
		
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Maybe I didn't word it quite right, what meant was the OWGR already gives points to 3 round comps, and points to comps with no cuts - that's just facts.
Many pages ago, thought there was a consensus (not that any of us can know for sure), that the qualifying entry piece & the length of time has been in existence were the main prevent reasons. (Probably some posts from LPhil).


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## Imurg (Nov 4, 2022)

IainP said:



			Maybe I didn't word it quite right, what meant was the OWGR already gives points to 3 round comps, and points to comps with no cuts - that's just facts.
Many pages ago, thought there was a consensus (not that any of us can know for sure), that the qualifying entry piece & the length of time has been in existence were the main prevent reasons. (Probably some posts from LPhil).
		
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The 3 round/no cut tours that get points are development tours where there is a distinct upward path to join bigger tours.
What's the step up from LIV? 
And don't say the Korn Ferry


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I struggle to understand how people don't understand the LIV players brought it on themselves; no one forced them to go.  They're like people who buy a house near an airport because it's cheap and then try to get the airport shut because of the noise of the planes; do your homework & see what you're jumping into, don't just look at the money.
		
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It more a case of : people who buy a house near an airport being banned from using the airport, with the airport justifying the position as being based on evidence that people living near airports are more likely to complain about noise, so people living near airports shouldn't be facilitated by the airport.


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Except that's exactly what will prevent LIV from getting OWGR accreditation, so it *does* matter! And there are good reasons why! There's no reason - except ego or deliberate policy - why LIV can't comply with OWGR and continue with the current format as their main style.
		
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Because then it wouldnt be LIVs differentiating schtick. Now, I think is rubbish too, but a golfer doesnt become a bad one because he plays 54 holes instead of 72. The rules were written by those with a 72 hole perspective (like Flatland, by A Square). I would suggest to them, that they give auto qualification to the top 5 LIV golfers otherwise not qualifying. To revised if/as more defect. If 20 more of the current world top 30 jumped, then I would just say let in all 54, to ensure the majors remain relevant, and not tainted by substandard fields.


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## IainP (Nov 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The 3 round/no cut tours that get points are development tours where there is a distinct upward path to join bigger tours.
What's the step up from LIV?
And don't say the Korn Ferry 

Click to expand...

Wait, what, if only someone had posted that in the last 8 thousand posts!
Would be a terrific answer if the question was "when has historically owgr given out points if...".
But if course it wasn't.
Still well done 👏 👏


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## r0wly86 (Nov 4, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It more a case of : people who buy a house near an airport being banned from using the airport, with the airport justifying the position as being based on evidence that people living near airports are more likely to complain about noise, so people living near airports shouldn't be facilitated by the airport.
		
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No, no it really is nothing like that example


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## cleveland52 (Nov 4, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Rocco’s take:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588505131980570624

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Rocco is right.... All the malcontents walk out the door trashing the pgatour. Some have the nerves to sue the ones that made them rich. totally shameful. Show some respect!


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			...
What's the step up from LIV?
And don't say the Korn Ferry 

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OK....The Champions Tour!  Perhaps a p-take reply, so not a 'step up' but I only see retirement as the next move for all but a couple of LIV players.
The OWGR rules are to 'assure consistency' of points allocation, therefore the ratings, across all Tours. LIV's format clashes with that!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 4, 2022)

One of the things that is annoying me most about LIV is all the talk about how the caddies are being treated better, getting their expenses paid, getting a guaranteed income etc and how that never happened on the PGA tour. The caddies were, and I assume still are, employees of the golfer not the LIV/PGA tour and so it was the responsibility of the players to treat the caddies appropriately. Dustin Johnson's brother has talked about Pat Perez's caddie and how for several years he barely broke even and that's disgusting within a big corporation such as the PGA tour, but now due to LIV it's much better. Surely he should be bringing that up with Perez who was the one responsible for how his caddie was treated.


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## BrianM (Nov 4, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			OK....The Champions Tour!  Perhaps a p-take reply, so not a 'step up' but I only see retirement as the next move for all but a couple of LIV players.
The OWGR rules are to 'assure consistency' of points allocation, therefore the ratings, across all Tours. LIV's format clashes with that!
		
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Which two players do you not see for retirement, out of curiosity?
If the rest are….


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			One of the things that is annoying me most about LIV is all the talk about how the caddies are being treated better, getting their expenses paid, getting a guaranteed income etc and how that never happened on the PGA tour. The caddies were, and I assume still are, employees of the golfer not the LIV/PGA tour and so it was the responsibility of the players to treat the caddies appropriately. Dustin Johnson's brother has talked about Pat Perez's caddie and how for several years he barely broke even and that's disgusting within a big corporation such as the PGA tour, but now due to LIV it's much better. Surely he should be bringing that up with Perez who was the one responsible for how his caddie was treated.
		
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I certainly agree with the last sentence! Depending on what the deal with their player was - traditionally enough to cover expenses plus 10% of winnings for 'casual' ones - LIV caddies would be earning more than many, or even most, players on DPW or even PGA Tour! But until actual payment details are released, it's all speculation as to what their deal really is.


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## Backsticks (Nov 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			One of the things that is annoying me most about LIV is all the talk about how the caddies are being treated better, getting their expenses paid, getting a guaranteed income etc and how that never happened on the PGA tour. The caddies were, and I assume still are, employees of the golfer not the LIV/PGA tour and so it was the responsibility of the players to treat the caddies appropriately. Dustin Johnson's brother has talked about Pat Perez's caddie and how for several years he barely broke even and that's disgusting within a big corporation such as the PGA tour, but now due to LIV it's much better. Surely he should be bringing that up with Perez who was the one responsible for how his caddie was treated.
		
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Caddying is little more than humping a bag. Average wage type job. Most working folk barely break even. Who do caddies think they are, the talent ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Which two players do you not see for retirement, out of curiosity?
If the rest are….
		
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Chacarra, Chantananuwat and Piot certainly. Others, like Puig, in a similar position also likely.


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## AussieKB (Nov 4, 2022)

So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ? If LIV sign Rory (not going to happen) then everyone here would also be happy for him being banned as well, at what point do the Majors stop being Majors, how many top players need to go to LIV for that to happen.

The Majors need to be impartial, if that means they use another formula to ensure that the best Players are invited so be it.

Sorry if that upsets your boat.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ? If LIV sign Rory (not going to happen) then everyone here would also be happy for him being banned as well, at what point do the Majors stop being Majors, how many top players need to go to LIV for that to happen.

The Majors need to be impartial, if that means they use another formula to ensure that the best Players are invited so be it.

Sorry if that upsets your boat.
		
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Where has anyone said that those already eligible shouldn’t be allowed to play? Although it would be amusing to watch the pro LiV lot go into meltdown.

Would you care if it was someone other than an Aussie?


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors....
		
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As that is simply NOT THE CASE, your entire 'point' has no validity! 
FWIW, I'm not anti LIV nor Pro PGAT, simply in favour of conformity to (obedience of) 'rules'! It's somewhat interesting to observe the clash of that concept with the 'anything that's legal goes' approach of the business aspect of this, particularly from LIV.

As far as I see, the Majors *are* impartial!


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 4, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ? If LIV sign Rory (not going to happen) then everyone here would also be happy for him being banned as well, at what point do the Majors stop being Majors, how many top players need to go to LIV for that to happen.

The Majors need to be impartial, if that means they use another formula to ensure that the best Players are invited so be it.

Sorry if that upsets your boat.
		
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Firstly, most on here are probably neither anti LIV nor pro PGA Tour; they just want to enjoy good golf.  And yes, most would like to see the best players playing in the biggest tournaments. But what most on here seem to accept is that there is a way of doing things, a set of rules to abide by and that if you step outside those rules then there are consequences. And this is where the problem lies.

LIV seem to think that they can do whatever they want and just carry on as normal. Like the spoilt rich brat at school that thinks he can do anything he wants; because Daddy’s got a bit of cash, the rules don’t apply to him. The kid that whines when he doesn’t get his own way that it’s everyone else’s fault. That kid.

If LIV stood up and accepted a bit of responsibility for the situation they have created and tried to negotiate a reasonable settlement people might have a degree of sympathy for them. But just like that spoilt brat, LIV don’t think it’s their fault for creating the situation, but everybody else’s fault for not bending over to what they want.  And that is what gets most peoples’ backs up about LIV. Their attitude that they are suddenly the saviour of a sport that has survived for years without them, and would continue to if they hadn’t turned up; their belief that the world will stop turning without them.

The Majors will do what they do; if they chose to incorporate LIV players, fine; and if they choose not to so be it. Most will still watch them and enjoy them for the great tournaments they are even if LIV players aren’t present.

The sooner the LIV players realise that the sun doesn’t shine out of their ass, that the world will still revolve without them playing in Majors and accept some responsibility for the situation that their greed has created the sooner the situation is liable to be resolved.  And we can all get back to watching golf.


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## Ian_George (Nov 4, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Firstly, most on here are probably neither anti LIV nor pro PGA Tour; they just want to enjoy good golf.  And yes, most would like to see the best players playing in the biggest tournaments. But what most on here seem to accept is that there is a way of doing things, a set of rules to abide by and that if you step outside those rules then there are consequences. And this is where the problem lies.

LIV seem to think that they can do whatever they want and just carry on as normal. Like the spoilt rich brat at school that thinks he can do anything he wants; because Daddy’s got a bit of cash, the rules don’t apply to him. The kid that whines when he doesn’t get his own way that it’s everyone else’s fault. That kid.

If LIV stood up and accepted a bit of responsibility for the situation they have created and tried to negotiate a reasonable settlement people might have a degree of sympathy for them. But just like that spoilt brat, LIV don’t think it’s their fault for creating the situation, but everybody else’s fault for not bending over to what they want.  And that is what gets most peoples’ backs up about LIV. Their attitude that they are suddenly the saviour of a sport that has survived for years without them, and would continue to if they hadn’t turned up; their belief that the world will stop turning without them.

The Majors will do what they do; if they chose to incorporate LIV players, fine; and if they choose not to so be it. Most will still watch them and enjoy them for the great tournaments they are even if LIV players aren’t present.

The sooner the LIV players realise that the sun doesn’t shine out of their ass, that the world will still revolve without them playing in Majors and accept some responsibility for the situation that their greed has created the sooner the situation is liable to be resolved.  And we can all get back to watching golf.
		
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LIV's approach is that of a 'disrupter' - for whatever reason, probably Normans long term attitude to The PGA Tour!
So LIV will continue to raise issues to keep themselves in the news. It certainly shifts focus from the occasional obscene acts of their funders!


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## AussieKB (Nov 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where has anyone said that those already eligible shouldn’t be allowed to play? Although it would be amusing to watch the pro LiV lot go into meltdown.

Would you care if it was someone other than an Aussie?
		
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Yes I would care, think if the Majors ban anyone because they play for LIV or another tour is crazy, can only hurt their product, and they would no longer be Majors in my Opinion.


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Yes I would care, think if the Majors ban anyone because they play for LIV or another tour is crazy, can only hurt their product, and they would no longer be Majors in my Opinion.
		
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I agree! But as they haven't, and I very, vey much doubt they will (at last not for being a LIV player), I can't see any point to the post!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ? If LIV sign Rory (not going to happen) then everyone here would also be happy for him being banned as well, at what point do the Majors stop being Majors, how many top players need to go to LIV for that to happen.

The Majors need to be impartial, if that means they use another formula to ensure that the best Players are invited so be it.

Sorry if that upsets your boat.
		
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You really need to try and stop playing the role of the victim here. It is making you think things that are not real. I haven't heard the non LIV fans asking for any bans from Majors.

Does it hurt you so much simply because Cameron Smith is involved? You sound like a big fanboy of him. If the thought of him not playing on big PGA events, or maybe struggling to qualify for Majors in the future worry you, then think about it like this: Is LIV good for the game, if this is what frustrates, angers, upsets you? Emotions you would never have had if LIV never came along. In your mind, will Majors be weakened in the future, compared to what they were Pre LIV. If so, the LIV is clearly not good for the game, if it instils all these negative emotions that were not previously there. Unless this is outweighed by the positivity you feel by seeing Cameron Smith in shorts?


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ?
		
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Over 8,000 posts and I'll wager that you can't find one that expresses delight at any player being refused access to the Majors.  If,  as I think they should,  entry requirements remain unchanged for the coming season,  all LiV players will be able to qualify for the opens.


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## IainP (Nov 5, 2022)

Agree. May be the odd imply but not going looking.

I think at times the banning aspect and qualification aspect become muddled in the back & forth which maybe confuses, tried to articulate here.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2564075

I think you do see a fair bit of "don't want them in the majors at all" on wider social media but as far as I could tell seemed to be predominantly from USA posters who believed the marketing and think the PGAT actually run them all.


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You really need to try and stop playing the role of the victim here. It is making you think things that are not real. I haven't heard the non LIV fans asking for any bans from Majors.
		
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Cam Smith has expressed concern that Augusta could change their rules for 2023 though...
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/golf-20...sters-fear-after-liv-bombshell-013223291.html

Whether it's another LIV publicity come disruption exercise or not I'm not certain! His attitude to the (somewhat dodgy imo) ruling at the St Jude was that of a 'true golfer'! FWW, I very much doubt that Augusta, or any other Major, would amend their qualification criteria to exclude the likes of Smith, though perhaps the likes of Sandy Lyle.


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## Backsticks (Nov 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Over 8,000 posts and I'll wager that you can't find one that expresses delight at any player being refused access to the Majors.  If,  as I think they should,  entry requirements remain unchanged for the coming season,  all LiV players will be able to qualify for the opens.
		
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Entry requirements have to move with the times. They were compiled pre LIV. They will be revised.
Invitations to the Masters usually go out late December or early January I think. Everyone will calm down then. The access to majors concern will be revealed to have been all about nothing. Everyone will be there.
Id say the officials in the 4 majors are amused that there is talk of otherwise.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 5, 2022)

There's quite clearly a rhetoric that denying LIV golfers OWGR points, and denying them opportunities to participate in Majors, could be used as an opportunity to destabilise the LIV series going forwards.
I think that's a fair point to make from both the views on here, and the wider views in golf generally.


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## Beezerk (Nov 5, 2022)

Disruptors, classic 🤣🤣🤣
Top notch Trumpism there 👌🤣


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## Backsticks (Nov 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There's quite clearly a rhetoric that denying LIV golfers OWGR points, and denying them opportunities to participate in Majors, could be used as an opportunity to destabilise the LIV series going forwards.
I think that's a fair point to make from both the views on here, and the wider views in golf generally.
		
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The 4 majors choose to follow owgr. They dont have to. Its entirely at their discretion, and while some use them partly, all four organisations have different qualification structures. Each can modify as it wants, independently, and take or not, as much as it wants from the owgr as it chooses. And post importantly, none of the majors are the PGAT. The 4 have their own corners to defend, and do no bat for team PGAT.


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## IainP (Nov 5, 2022)

When I look at the DPWT schedule, countries and continents visited - it isn't far away from what I'd like to see.
If somehow a big reset button could be pressed, LIV & PGAT are put on the naughty step for not playing nicely  - all the money, and hence players, move to a world tour.😁

https://golf.com/news/dp-world-tour-schedule-big-changes/

There's already the 3 majors in the USA,  maybe add a couple more events.

Perhaps this was Pelley's plan all along - let the other two lawsuit each other into oblivion, then DPWT can swoop in and mop up! 😆

Back in reality  it remains to be seen how many top players are at the majority of the locations 😐


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## Dando (Nov 5, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what I gather from this is that the anti LIV or pro PGAT etc are quite happy that the Champion Golfer of the Year is refused entry to the Majors, why is that I wonder ? If LIV sign Rory (not going to happen) then everyone here would also be happy for him being banned as well, at what point do the Majors stop being Majors, how many top players need to go to LIV for that to happen.

The Majors need to be impartial, if that means they use another formula to ensure that the best Players are invited so be it.

Sorry if that upsets your boat.
		
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡


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## cleveland52 (Nov 5, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			As that is simply NOT THE CASE, your entire 'point' has no validity!
FWIW, I'm not anti LIV nor Pro PGAT, simply in favour of conformity to (obedience of) 'rules'! It's somewhat interesting to observe the clash of that concept with the 'anything that's legal goes' approach of the business aspect of this, particularly from LIV.

As far as I see, the Majors *are* impartial!
		
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I think that the majors are impartial as well, but I wouldn't blame them if they banned all LIV players from play until the completion of all Lawsuits though....


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I think that the majors are impartial as well, but I wouldn't blame them if they banned all LIV players from play until the completion of all Lawsuits though....
		
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On what basis would they ban them?


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 5, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Entry requirements have to move with the times. They were compiled pre LIV. They will be revised.
Invitations to the Masters usually go out late December or early January I think. Everyone will calm down then. The access to majors concern will be revealed to have been all about nothing. Everyone will be there.
Id say the officials in the 4 majors are amused that there is talk of otherwise.
		
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I'm pretty certain that all four majors have amended their entry requirements as times and golf have changed, and I can see some changes going forward.   But and this is a big but LiV will need to change too,  as currently they are so far away from the other tours in terms of qualifying and formats I'm struggling to see how their players could be compared to players on other tours.  It would be like trying to rank players who only played 20/20 cricket alongside those who only play test matches.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 5, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			On what basis would they ban them?
		
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Off the top off my head, I would say.....It's their tournament and they can change the criteria as they see fit. Not being a party to a lawsuit sound like a great criterion to me. Especially the Masters tournament.

I don't think that any tournament is legally obligated to have LIV players in attendance.


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I think that the majors are impartial as well, but I wouldn't blame them if they banned all LIV players from play until the completion of all Lawsuits though....
		
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I can't envisage that happening. That would destroy their 'neutral' positions!


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## BTatHome (Nov 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			It would be like trying to rank players who only played 20/20 cricket alongside those who only play test matches.
		
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So in your example, only players that played in test matches would be in the rankings. All other forms of cricket (1Day, Hundred, T20) would be excluded from comparisons and rankings.

Gotcha 👍


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I think that the majors are impartial as well, but I wouldn't blame them if they banned all LIV players from play until the completion of all Lawsuits though....
		
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Why just LIV players then? The lawsuit(s) are nothing to do with the Majors! Purely Between LIV, a few (3) LIV players and the PGA Tour. The Majors are all 'neutral'!


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I'm pretty certain that all four majors have amended their entry requirements as times and golf have changed, and I can see some changes going forward.   But and this is a big but LiV will need to change too,  as currently they are so far away from the other tours in terms of qualifying and formats I'm struggling to see how their players could be compared to players on other tours.  It would be like trying to rank players who only played 20/20 cricket alongside those who only play test matches.
		
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That's an essential, and maybe primary, reason for having the OWGR! But that process has certain standardisation requirements that LIV currently doesn't comply with. It's currently a case of 'who blinks first' wrt which org changes. For 2023 (and maybe another year or 2), it doesn't really matter much as the number of LIV players who lose access is relatively small But that will increase over time.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 5, 2022)

BTatHome said:



			So in your example, only players that played in test matches would be in the rankings. All other forms of cricket (1Day, Hundred, T20) would be excluded from comparisons and rankings.

Gotcha 👍
		
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As I understand it,  that is exactly how cricket rankings work,  i.e.seperate player rankings for each format of the game.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 5, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Why just LIV players then? The lawsuit(s) are nothing to do with the Majors! Purely Between LIV, a few (3) LIV players and the PGA Tour. The Majors are all 'neutral'!
		
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I was under the impression that the DOJ was investigating ANGC, PGAtour, etcc.... for collusion and antitrust practices. I'm sure PReed is suing everyone involved in the game of golf.

LIV as a distraction is reason enough to limit LIV players. LIV uses every opportunity to wear their gear and recruit players.....Phil was recruiting while playing in tournaments.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 5, 2022)

Thoughts...?? 

Got to be a good thing? 

Would it have happened without Liv? 

DP World Tour golfers will receive guaranteed money for first time in the 2023 season - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/63497148


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I was under the impression that the DOJ was investigating ANGC, PGAtour, etcc.... for collusion and antitrust practices. I'm sure PReed is suing everyone involved in the game of golf.

LIV as a distraction is reason enough to limit LIV players. LIV uses every opportunity to wear their gear and recruit players.....Phil was recruiting while playing in tournaments.
		
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Investigating ain't the same as suing though is it! And even suing doesn't mean there's actual real 'damage' involved!

Limiting LIV players simply because LIV is a distraction can only go so far! DPWT may have exceeded legal boundaries with their approach, though I'm sure they would have taken legal advice about it.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 5, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I can't envisage that happening. That would destroy their 'neutral' positions!
		
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If someone was suing you, would you invite them to your Bar-B-Q?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 5, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Investigating ain't the same as suing though is it! And even suing doesn't mean there's actual real 'damage' involved!

Limiting LIV players simply because LIV is a distraction can only go so far! DPWT may have exceeded legal boundaries with their approach, though I'm sure they would have taken legal advice about it.
		
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Didn't the R&A do that to Greg N.?


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## AussieKB (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			If someone was suing you, would you invite them to your Bar-B-Q?
		
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Who is suing the Majors ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Didn't the R&A do that to Greg N.?
		
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1. Rather different circumstances. Not a playing situation.
2. LIV players were allowed to play in The Open, so actually 'demonstrates their independent approach'.


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## Ian_George (Nov 5, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			If someone was suing you, would you invite them to your Bar-B-Q?
		
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Nobody is suing 'the Majors'. But, injunction notwithstanding, the Tours involved are excluding LIV players as much as possible!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 6, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Nobody is suing 'the Majors'. But, injunction notwithstanding, the Tours involved are excluding LIV players as much as possible!
		
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"LIV's civil suit alleges that Augusta National played a prominent role  in trying to prevent playrs from leaving the pgatour"

LIV golf prompted the antitrust suit as well if I'm not mistaken. So, why wouldn't ANGC ban all Liv players until the completion of all legal action if they choose to do so?


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## AussieKB (Nov 6, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			"LIV's civil suit alleges that Augusta National played a prominent role  in trying to prevent playrs from leaving the pgatour"

LIV golf prompted the antitrust suit as well if I'm not mistaken. So, why wouldn't ANGC ban all Liv players until the completion of all legal action if they choose to do so?
		
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A bit like going back in time where they banned all black people except for carrying the clubs in white overalls.


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			"LIV's civil suit *alleges* that Augusta National played a prominent role  in trying to prevent playrs from leaving the pgatour"
		
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What the suit *alleges* and what actually happened are not necessarily identical!


cleveland52 said:



			LIV golf *prompted* the antitrust suit as well if I'm not mistaken. So, *why wouldn't ANGC ban all Liv players* until the completion of all legal action if they choose to do so?
		
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Assuming you meant 'promoted', that was later, at which time all but 3 of the players dropped their individual ones, stating LIV's action duplicated theirs, so their action was not needed. 
As for Augusta banning LIV players, the question really should be 'Why would they ban all LIV players. . . .'. Your question is just speculation!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 6, 2022)

Remember, Rory said this year "It's dead in the water" with regards to LIV, when clearly, it wasn't. There would most definitley have been messages, emails and conversations going around that were trying to eliminate the LIV series and prevent players from having their heads turned. There's absolutley no reason to believe that AGNC, or their representatives might not have been involved in those conversations, and tried to influence players.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			A bit like going back in time where they banned all black people except for carrying the clubs in white overalls.
		
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This comment has nothing to do with the current situation, I think the point you are trying to make is that Augusta has its own set of rules and if they decide not to invite players involved in litigation, that is their prerogative.


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Remember, Rory said this year "It's dead in the water" with regards to LIV, when clearly, it wasn't. There would most definitley have been messages, emails and conversations going around that were trying to eliminate the LIV series and prevent players from having their heads turned. There's absolutley no reason to believe that *AGNC*, or their representatives might not have been involved in those conversations, and tried to influence players.
		
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What has an investment company got to do with The Masters! But assuming you mean ANGC, until here's actual evidence that ANGC will prevent qualifying LIV players from participating, any comments that anyone might make are pure speculation come LIV style 'disruption'! ANGC MIGHT do many things, but I'm convinced that it won't disinvite any LIV plyers that qualify via its published criteria!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 6, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			A bit like going back in time where they banned all black people except for carrying the clubs in white overalls.
		
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Now you’re being ridiculous. It’s nothing like that at all.


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

While doing a bit of research for a previous post, I checked this year's PGA Championship date and participants. I had to smile at the large number of (now) LIV players who missed the cut!  Also, this article https://www.golfdigest.com/story/saudi-golf-league-2022-primer corrects my previous thought wrt LIV players eligibility for the PGA Championship. Seth Waugh has stated that those players that defect to LIV *will not be allowed* in future PGA Championships.


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## PieMan (Nov 6, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			While doing a bit of research for a previous post, I checked this year's PGA Championship date and participants. I had to smile at the large number of (now) LIV players who missed the cut! 

Click to expand...

They probably thought they had a guaranteed extra day so didn't try as hard.........!


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## Backsticks (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Remember, Rory said this year "It's dead in the water" with regards to LIV, when clearly, it wasn't.
		
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That was a fair assessment from Rory based on what players were saying publicly, or amongst themselves, at the time.  But many were being duplicitous, and that led to the subsequent bitterness from Rory and others, when the pledges to the pgat were shown to be false.Saying to each other they were staying, while simultaneously negotiating their Saudi deal. It wasnt moving to LIV in itself that led to the bad feeling that now exists between some players. It was the lying to each other.


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## garyinderry (Nov 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That was a fair assessment based on what players were saying publicly, or amongst themselves, at the time. But many were being duplicitous, and that led to the subsequent bitterness from Rory and others, when the pledges to the pgat were shown to be false. It wasnt moving to LIV in itself that led to the bad feeling that now exists between some players. It was the lying to each other.
		
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Didnt a lot of them also want to continue playing on the pga tour along with liv. 

That definitely caused a lot of resentment.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 6, 2022)

We know Rory has a huge influence on the PGA Tour, we saw that with the Delaware meeting and the PGAT immediately made changes with elevated events and founf an extra 200 million dollars. 

His stance has really changed recently and its been in multiple interviews now. 
I also think he knows (inside knowledge) of more PGAT players that are looking like they may go. 

"Rory says PGAT & Liv have to find a compromise" 
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-and-liv-will-have-to-find-a-compromise-rory-mcilroy


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			We know Rory has a huge influence on the PGA Tour, we saw that with the Delaware meeting and the PGAT immediately made changes with elevated events and founf an extra 200 million dollars.

His stance has really changed recently and its been in multiple interviews now.
I also think he knows (inside knowledge) of more PGAT players that are looking like they may go.

"Rory says PGAT & Liv have to find a compromise"
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-and-liv-will-have-to-find-a-compromise-rory-mcilroy

Click to expand...


I'd imagine Rory is now seeing the reality that LIV is here to stay, and questioning why he should be in a position where he or his fellow pros have to miss out on it?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd imagine Rory is now seeing the reality that LIV is here to stay, and questioning why he should be in a position where he or his fellow pros have to miss out on it?
		
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Really ? I don’t see Rory joining ever, it would be an incredible U turn and given his previous comments a massive climb down.

Agree his tone has moderated slightly, but you are spinning big time here.

With regard to LIV being here to stay, they have probably 18 months to start gaining a substantial income stream coz the Saudis will want to see some return on their investment, if they decide to pull the funding then LIV is definitely not here to stay.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 6, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			What the suit *alleges* and what actually happened are not necessarily identical!

Assuming you meant 'promoted', that was later, at which time all but 3 of the players dropped their individual ones, stating LIV's action duplicated theirs, so their action was not needed.
As for Augusta banning LIV players, the question really should be 'Why would they ban all LIV players. . . .'. Your question is just speculation!
		
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I know it was speculation. I was asked a question and I answered it.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Really ? I don’t see Rory joining ever, it would be an incredible U turn and given his previous comments a massive climb down.

Agree his tone has moderated slightly, but *you are spinning big time here.*

With regard to LIV being here to stay, they have probably 18 months to start gaining a substantial income stream coz the Saudis will want to see some return on their investment, if they decide to pull the funding then LIV is definitely not here to stay.
		
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And this post is different from the multitude of others how?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 6, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			That was a fair assessment from Rory based on what players were saying publicly, or amongst themselves, at the time.  But many were being duplicitous, and that led to the subsequent bitterness from Rory and others, when the pledges to the pgat were shown to be false.*Saying to each other they were staying, while simultaneously negotiating their Saudi deal. It wasnt moving to LIV in itself that led to the bad feeling that now exists between some players. It was the lying to each other.[/*QUOTE]

_____________________________________
This is a real assessment as to what was going on at the time. Current recruits continue to lie right up to going to LIV golf. Plus bringing lawsuits against the pgatour which is the players themselves.
		
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## TheBigDraw (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd imagine Rory is now seeing the reality that LIV is here to stay, and questioning why he should be in a position where he or his fellow pros have to miss out on it?
		
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There is no way Rory is saying they should talk so he can play on Liv 🙈

He just wants to play against all the best players in the big PGAT events..


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Really ? I don’t see Rory joining ever, it would be an incredible U turn and given his previous comments a massive climb down.

Agree his tone has moderated slightly, but you are spinning big time here.

With regard to LIV being here to stay, they have probably 18 months to start gaining a substantial income stream coz the Saudis will want to see some return on their investment, if they decide to pull the funding then LIV is definitely not here to stay.
		
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It's on record the Saudis are funding it until 2025, if Rory is telling the world the split needs to be healed, then that will mean that the 'us versus them' situation will be no more.
If golf evolves into something that means the top players want to have the right to play in multiple tours, why would Rory put himself in a position where he can't do that?


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd imagine Rory is now seeing the reality that LIV is here to stay, and questioning why he should be in a position where he or his fellow pros have to miss out on it?
		
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You have a vivid imagine then! Unlike other tours, LIV's entire existence depends on (massive) funding by a single sponsor! That's an excellent reason for it to be called The Saudi Golf League! Here's an article from a couple of weeks ago! https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereks...iv-golf-spreading-propaganda/?sh=38d38f8934ae Co-exist (until 2025) yes; here to stay; only at the whim of the Saudis! A completely different situation than, say, Newcastle FC's!

You should change your handle to 'Mel *Spin*'!


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## Backsticks (Nov 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'd imagine Rory is now seeing the reality that LIV is here to stay, and questioning why he should be in a position where he or his fellow pros have to miss out on it?
		
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Because he, and others feel they were set up, and the rug pulled from under those who did say they were committed to the pgat, and meant it, by those who didnt mean it. This led the likes of McIlroy to state their position under the impression that the top PGAT players were solid and holding together as a group. Then some jumped. And not everyone is happy to be calling people mother (editted) one day, and signing to work for them the next. Once players were not being honest with each other, there was going to be a split, rancour, and a situation more difficult to put back together than had they dealt with it properly before the defections started.


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## IainP (Nov 6, 2022)

Over the years I've enjoyed Rory's candid approach to interviews, but IMO he's been  a difficult listen at times in 2022. He has twice previously been quoted encouraging compromise etc., to then return to stirring the pot & digs shortly after. Perhaps conflicted. He has his players advisory role, wouldn't be surprised if TM have encouraged a more conciliatory approach, plus many others pulling him in various directions.
He may have also been surprised by the volume of negative comments he has picked up Stateside (obviously positive ones also) - in moving beyond player and into more 'golf politics'


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			We know Rory has a huge influence on the PGA Tour, we saw that with the Delaware meeting and the PGAT immediately made changes with elevated events and founf an extra 200 million dollars.

His stance has really changed recently and its been in multiple interviews now.
I also think he knows (inside knowledge) of more PGAT players that are looking like they may go.

"Rory says PGAT & Liv have to find a compromise"
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-and-liv-will-have-to-find-a-compromise-rory-mcilroy

Click to expand...

I think he may need to send LIV a dictionary because I'm not sure compromise is a word Greg is familiar with.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 6, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think he may need to send LIV a dictionary because I'm not sure compromise is a word Greg is familiar with.
		
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True 🤣🤣🤣

It's hard to see how a compromise can happen now we are so far down the line..


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## cleveland52 (Nov 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			True 🤣🤣🤣

It's hard to see how a compromise can happen now we are so far down the line..
		
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Compromise??? Tell me again why the PGATOUR need LIV Golf.....LOL! No compromise needed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 6, 2022)

So LIV finishes with their viewing figures tanking , crowds non existent and no one really caring 

So they spent billions to achieve what 🤷‍♂️


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So they spent billions to achieve what 🤷‍♂️
		
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A 2nd year to try to grow bigger and better...


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Compromise??? Tell me again why the PGATOUR need LIV Golf.....LOL! No compromise needed.
		
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Which is why LIV needs the 'obscene' rewards (for players) and visibility (controversy) that has been provided by OWGR or Major participation issues and the likes of Mel Spin and other fanboys!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 6, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Compromise??? Tell me again why the PGATOUR need LIV Golf.....LOL! No compromise needed.
		
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It's Rory who is asking for the compromise.. 🤔🤔


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 6, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			A 2nd year to try to grow bigger and better...
		
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What’s going to change to make that happen when it looks like the level of interest for it dropped as it went on ?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So LIV finishes with their viewing figures tanking , crowds non existent and no one really caring

So they spent billions to achieve what 🤷‍♂️
		
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I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that someone (GN) convinced them that they could find 12 billionaires to buy teams and here we are. They figured that if they took all the bad boys and trashed the pgatour all of their fans would leave and follow circus golf.

The jury is still out. The question is......Are golf fans truly that gullible?


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## Ian_George (Nov 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s going to change to make that happen when it looks like the level of interest for it dropped as it went on ?
		
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14 'Tournaments' instead of 8 as per this year. A couple of months old, so probably progressed a bit. https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-2023-sched.
.
Here's an contra-LIV-spin interpretation of a couple of the points.

LIV: “We've got a lot of interest, high-level interest, from people working in government that would love to have us in other states"
Actual: "The postman recognised us and told us to '(bleep) off and die'!'"
LIV: "LIV officials were in Australia two weeks ago visiting venues all over the country, and only one course on their list of finalists declined, according to LIV Golf CEO Greg Norman."
Actual: "We tried some target venues but the one that would actually speak to us told us to (bleep) off!"

Interesting to note Valderrama scheduled for the week before The Open. That would exclude those playing from playing in the Scottish Open to qualify for The Open. Maybe he doesn't expect LIV players to be allowed to play DPWT events or maybe not The Open!


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## IainP (Nov 7, 2022)

On your last point, don't forget the Scottish Open is now a PGAT event also  -  likely a good thing (for golf) to not add further legal stuff IMO.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.


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## PieMan (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps this rival ranking organisation could be based in the Middle East......!

They could have a tag line of 'Golf but Rankers'.........


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's where the work was done, but it *is* where the OWGR company is based.

There ARE independent rankings performed - that even include LIV golfers. datagolf.com is one of them. But these also use different attributes and weightings, so are not directly comparable.

But part of the acceptance for a tour to be eligible for OWGR points to be allocated is a conformity to a number of 'standards' to ensure the accuracy of the rankings across the many tours. LIV doesn't conform to a number of those, so their results aren't included.

FWIW, including LIV tournaments doesn't make a huge difference to the slide of LIV players as the format and frequency of play means most of them are still slipping down the rankings! As per most LIV utterings, it's the disruption that counts - and it's conforming to its 'golf but louder' approach! Access to PGAT and DPWT events for LIV players would allow them to gain more points, but that's not going to happen any time soon as the legal process is drawn out - and goes against the claimed reasons many of the original 'defectors' moved in the first place!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.
		
Click to expand...

The OWGR will ultimately created by the major governing bodies to help them sort out who they invited into the majors 

It wasn’t there to figure out who is “the best” 

As time Elapsed the other tours etc wanted to also use the rankings to help them decide on entry as well 

All the tours and majors agreed on what criteria to be used 

Now if LIV want to follow the same process and use the rankings for entry ( 😂 ) , then it’s simple - follow the same process as all the other tours 

If they don’t then no ranking points 

I really don’t see why it’s such an issue


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## Backsticks (Nov 7, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The OWGR will ultimately created by the major governing bodies to help them sort out who they invited into the majors

It wasn’t there to figure out who is “the best”

As time Elapsed the other tours etc wanted to also use the rankings to help them decide on entry as well

All the tours and majors agreed on what criteria to be used

Now if LIV want to follow the same process and use the rankings for entry ( 😂 ) , then it’s simple - follow the same process as all the other tours

If they don’t then no ranking points

I really don’t see why it’s such an issue
		
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Its an issue because the majors all need to ensure they have the best golfers in the world in their field. Their entire existance as majors depends upon it. So their current filter mechanism is no longer up to the job.

There is no real owgr these days, until they adapt to the changed landscape, and make it credible again. It means nothing today.


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its an issue because the majors all need to ensure they have the best golfers in the world in their field. Their entire existance as majors depends upon it. So their current filter mechanism is no longer up to the job.

There is no real owgr these days, until they adapt to the changed landscape, and make it credible again. It means nothing today.
		
Click to expand...

Why does OWGR have to change to accommodate LIV? 
Every other tour that gets points has based their structure around complying with OWGR 
LIV are the ones who should change if they want to get points.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.
		
Click to expand...

Bankrolled by the Saudis presumably, as the other tours have one in place & it makes little financial sense to them to pay for a second.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2022)

I wonder if the NBA ever adjusted their rankings to accommodate the Harlem Globetrotters?  No, didn't think so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 7, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its an issue because the majors all need to ensure they have the best golfers in the world in their field. Their entire existance as majors depends upon it. So their current filter mechanism is no longer up to the job.

There is no real owgr these days, until they adapt to the changed landscape, and make it credible again. It means nothing today.
		
Click to expand...

It means everything to all the majors and the tours that fulfill the criteria 🤷‍♂️

They have shown no inkling to make any changes to suit one single tour of 48 golfers 

If that one single tour wants to be a part of it then it knows what it needs to do 🤷‍♂️

Things don’t change to suit 1% - the 1% adjusts to adapt


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## BiMGuy (Nov 7, 2022)

If the majors don’t ban LiV players just because they are LiV players. Are there any LiV players worth having outside those who are already eligible? 

And presumably, if there is no outright ban. If the LiV players are as good as some would have use believing. They will have no problem getting through local qualifying where available.


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## PieMan (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If the majors don’t ban LiV players just because they are LiV players. Are there any LiV players worth having outside those who are already eligible?
		
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No; not even the golfing legend that is Pat Perez..............!!


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## Bdill93 (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



*If the majors don’t ban LiV players just because they are LiV players. Are there any LiV players worth having outside those who are already eligible*?

And presumably, if there is no outright ban. If the LiV players are as good as some would have use believing. They will have no problem getting through local qualifying where available.
		
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Big fat no in my eyes


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Why does OWGR have to change to accommodate LIV?
Every other tour that gets points has based their structure around complying with OWGR
LIV are the ones who should change if they want to get points.
		
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Why shouldn’t they? 

Surely a flexible and accurate ranking system is better than and restrictive one. 

Preventing LIV having ranking points becomes increasingly linked towards preventing LIV, so it would seem.


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn’t they?

Surely a flexible and accurate ranking system is better than and restrictive one.

Preventing LIV having ranking points becomes increasingly linked towards preventing LIV, so it would seem.
		
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blah, blah, blah


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## Bdill93 (Nov 7, 2022)

422 pages in and we are still talking about OGWR


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			422 pages in and we are still talking about OGWR 

Click to expand...

that dead horse has been well and truly flogged


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn’t they?

Surely a flexible and accurate ranking system is better than and restrictive one.

Preventing LIV having ranking points becomes increasingly linked towards preventing LIV, so it would seem.
		
Click to expand...

And, once again, the magnitude of the arrogance of everything LIV never fails to live up to expectations......


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## Bdill93 (Nov 7, 2022)

Anyone going to attend LIV's UK event next year? Assuming we get one....


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

Are they giving away 50 quid tickets for nothing?


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

Dando said:



			blah, blah, blah
		
Click to expand...

Excellent point.  Have you ever considered running for parliament?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Are they giving away 50 quid tickets for nothing?
		
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Would you go if they were?

I think id pay to go back next year... had a great time


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Excellent point.  Have you ever considered running for parliament?
		
Click to expand...

the same old bull poo from him is getting very tedious


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why shouldn’t they?

Surely a flexible and accurate ranking system is better than and restrictive one.

Preventing LIV having ranking points becomes increasingly linked towards preventing LIV, so it would seem.
		
Click to expand...

Literally no one is preventing LIV from gaining ranking points, they simply have to reach certain criteria, that every other tour has to reach.

It makes sense for any ranking system to have criteria to join, otherwise as a hypothetical what is stopping me from setting up a tour with my mates and saying we should get ranking points. The whole point of the entry criteria is that the tours are somewhat comparable, if the tours are so different on an operational level then it make comparing them to one another almost impossible, which after all is the whole point of a ranking system.

As for the majors, they have to have some way of allowing entry that is somewhat equitable to all. If LIV set themselves up deliberately outside the system, and refuse to change, then it is not hte fault of the PGAT, OWGR, or the Majors if the players do not qualify. They and you have repeatedly been told that if LIV make the requisite changes to get ranking points (which are not particular onerous or goes against what they stand for) then they will get ranking points and access to the majors.

This is all on LIV, always has been, to blame everyone else is frankly stupid


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



*Literally no one is preventing LIV from gaining ranking points, they simply have to reach certain criteria, that every other tour has to reach.*

It makes sense for any ranking system to have criteria to join, otherwise as a hypothetical what is stopping me from setting up a tour with my mates and saying we should get ranking points. The whole point of the entry criteria is that the tours are somewhat comparable, if the tours are so different on an operational level then it make comparing them to one another almost impossible, which after all is the whole point of a ranking system.

As for the majors, they have to have some way of allowing entry that is somewhat equitable to all. If LIV set themselves up deliberately outside the system, and refuse to change, then it is not hte fault of the PGAT, OWGR, or the Majors if the players do not qualify. They and you have repeatedly been told that if LIV make the requisite changes to get ranking points (which are not particular onerous or goes against what they stand for) then they will get ranking points and access to the majors.

This is all on LIV, always has been, to blame everyone else is frankly stupid
		
Click to expand...

have you not read that all the other tours have to pull their trousers down and bend over


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

Dando said:



			have you not read that all the other tours have to pull their trousers down and bend over
		
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I think it's absolutely right for everyone to hang a moon at Greg Norman.....


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Anyone going to attend LIV's UK event next year? Assuming we get one....
		
Click to expand...

It's in their schedule - equivalent date I  believe. Assuming LIV still exist then of course (I'm sure it will)!


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Are they giving away 50 quid tickets for nothing?
		
Click to expand...

If the attendance goes the same way and rate as their YT viewer count, they'll be paying folk to attend! 


Imurg said:



			I think it's absolutely right for everyone to hang a moon at Greg Norman.....

Click to expand...

He's been a lot quieter recently! The Prez seems to have taken over quite a bit of the PR side.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			If the attendance goes the same way and rate as their YT viewer count, they'll be paying folk to attend!
		
Click to expand...

In which case ill do all 3 days


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			... It makes sense for any ranking system to have criteria to join, otherwise as a hypothetical what is stopping me from setting up a tour with my mates and saying we should get ranking points. The whole point of the entry criteria is that the tours are somewhat comparable, if the tours are so different on an operational level then it make comparing them to one another almost impossible, which after all is the whole point of a ranking system...
		
Click to expand...

That hypothetical doesn't really make any sense.  It's a huge exaggeration to say you and your mates could just start a tour and expect to receive ranking points.  In no way is that comparable with the LIV situation.  

OWGR already factor the 'event ranking' into their calculations.  If they consider 54 holes to be weaker than 72, they just adjust the event rankings to reflect that.  I certainly don't agree that comparing performance between a 72 hole tournament and a hole tournament is "almost impossible".  It just needs a weighting adjustment, which they already do.  OWGR won't change their procedure because they're owned by the PGAT/DPWT.  It's not a case of can't, it's won't.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

*Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.[*/QUOTE]
Nothing stopping .....You, Me, LIV or anyone else from doing just that. The pgatour would continue to use their sanctioned OWGR Org. for their purposes and LIV or anyone else could use theirs. Now will the major tournaments accept the results is something else.
		
Click to expand...


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## Swango1980 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			The role of the Official World Golf Ranking company has never been more front and centre.  Prior to LIV, they were just some people at Wentworth who did a load of maths to decide who was best.  We knew there were doing it but we didn't really think about how they did it.

Now we have to think about what their purpose is.  Should the OWGR continuously review and develop their system to reflect golf, however it is being played; or should they set the terms for how it must be played if you want to be ranked?  Personally, I'd prefer it if they were impartial and ranked all pro golfers, regardless of tour.  However, given that they are 100% owned and funded by USGA, R&A, ANGC, PGAT and DPWT, I don't think that's very likely.

*Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours.*

Click to expand...

Let me guess Shep. You've already set up an Excel spreadsheet that does this, and now you are looking to get sponsorship?


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			That hypothetical doesn't really make any sense.  It's a huge exaggeration to say you and your mates could just start a tour and expect to receive ranking points.  In no way is that comparable with the LIV situation. 

OWGR already factor the 'event ranking' into their calculations.  If they consider 54 holes to be weaker than 72, they just adjust the event rankings to reflect that.  I certainly don't agree that comparing performance between a 72 hole tournament and a hole tournament is "almost impossible".  It just needs a weighting adjustment, which they already do.  OWGR won't change their procedure because they're owned by the PGAT/DPWT.  It's not a case of can't, it's won't.
		
Click to expand...

I am not saying that me making up my own tour and LIV are at all similar, simply stating that it is totally correct for OWGR to have criteria that tours need to reach, or any tour could claim ranking points and it would be impossible to deny them points.

It's not just 72 v 54 holes that is an issue, it is the qualification process, the lack of a cut and all the other issues that LIV won't address. Each one requires a new algorithm to "weight" LIV, the question is why would or even should OWGR do that, when they quite clearly list what criteria a tour must use in order to gain ranking points.

They are not owned by the PGAT or DPWT. They are separate organisation who's stakeholder include 4 majors and 6 PGA Tours, they also administer points to an additional 17 tours. 

So there is 23 tours and 4 majors that all abide by the system and get points, and one tour that doesn't abide by the rules and yet still expects ranking points


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Literally no one is preventing LIV from gaining ranking points, they simply have to reach certain criteria, that every other tour has to reach.

It makes sense for any ranking system to have criteria to join, otherwise as a hypothetical what is stopping me from setting up a tour with my mates and saying we should get ranking points. The whole point of the entry criteria is that the tours are somewhat comparable, if the tours are so different on an operational level then it make comparing them to one another almost impossible, which after all is the whole point of a ranking system.

As for the majors, they have to have some way of allowing entry that is somewhat equitable to all. If LIV set themselves up deliberately outside the system, and refuse to change, then it is not hte fault of the PGAT, OWGR, or the Majors if the players do not qualify. They and you have repeatedly been told that if LIV make the requisite changes to get ranking points (which are not particular onerous or goes against what they stand for) then they will get ranking points and access to the majors.

This is all on LIV, always has been, to blame everyone else is frankly stupid
		
Click to expand...

You, amongst others, are missing my point. 
All of us are ranked every time we submit a score to England Golf. 
Why is the OWGR so convoluted?
Why isn’t it modified so that there is no ambiguity over qualifying criteria from one tour to another? 
Why can’t it accommodate events that are 3 days with no cuts? If another tour wanted to introduce such an event, surely it would make sense to have a system in place that can accommodate that event? 

This isn’t me excusing LIV, it’s asking how the OWGR should be improved to make it more adaptable to future golf events.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You, amongst others, are missing my point.
All of us are ranked every time we submit a score to England Golf.
Why is the OWGR so convoluted?
Why isn’t it modified so that there is no ambiguity over qualifying criteria from one tour to another?
Why can’t it accommodate events that are 3 days with no cuts? If another tour wanted to introduce such an event, surely it would make sense to have a system in place that can accommodate that event?

This isn’t me excusing LIV, it’s asking how the OWGR should be improved to make it more adaptable to future golf events.
		
Click to expand...

We are not ranked when we put in a score to Golf England

OWGR is not convoluted, how do you think it is

There is no ambiguity over qualifying criteria, it is published to anyone who wants to read it

It can accommodate "events" like that, as long as they are part of a tour that is already sanctioned by the OWGR


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## cleveland52 (Nov 7, 2022)

*"Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours."[*/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing stopping .....You, Me, LIV or anyone else from doing just that. The pgatour would continue to use their sanctioned OWGR Org. for their purposes and LIV or anyone else could use theirs. Now will the major tournaments accept the results is something else.[


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I am not saying that me making up my own tour and LIV are at all similar, simply stating that it is totally correct for OWGR to have criteria that tours need to reach, or any tour could claim ranking points and it would be impossible to deny them points.

It's not just 72 v 54 holes that is an issue, it is the qualification process, the lack of a cut and all the other issues that LIV won't address. Each one requires a new algorithm to "weight" LIV, the question is why would or even should OWGR do that, when they quite clearly list what criteria a tour must use in order to gain ranking points.

They are not owned by the PGAT or DPWT. They are separate organisation who's stakeholder include 4 majors and 6 PGA Tours, they also administer points to an additional 17 tours.

So there is 23 tours and 4 majors that all abide by the system and get points, and one tour that doesn't abide by the rules and yet still expects ranking points
		
Click to expand...

I suspect they actually already algorithms to cover those tournaments in conforming tours that have limited or invitation fields and no qualifiers. But they minimise the distortion these produce by requiring a minimum percentage of 'standard' style tournaments to mitigate any distortion. LIV's 100% nonconforming style needs to change in order to receive OWGR points, but I doubt it will - just to continue to be 'loud' and a disrupter!


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I suspect they actually already algorithms to cover those tournaments in conforming tours that have limited or invitation fields and no qualifiers. But minimise the distortion these produce by requiring a minimum percentage of 'standard' style tournaments to mitigate any distortion. LIV's style needs to change in order to receive OWGR points, but I doubt it will - just to continue to be 'loud' and a disrupter!
		
Click to expand...

but it's been made perfectly clear that LIV shouldn't have to change!


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Dando said:



			but it's been made perfectly clear that LIV shouldn't have to change!
		
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It doesn't! But, as a consequence, its tournaments shouldn't receive OWGR points!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I am not saying that me making up my own tour and LIV are at all similar, simply stating that it is totally correct for OWGR to have criteria that tours need to reach, or any tour could claim ranking points and it would be impossible to deny them points.

It's not just 72 v 54 holes that is an issue, it is the qualification process, the lack of a cut and all the other issues that LIV won't address. Each one requires a new algorithm to "weight" LIV, the question is why would or even should OWGR do that, when they quite clearly list what criteria a tour must use in order to gain ranking points.

They are not owned by the PGAT or DPWT. They are separate organisation who's stakeholder include 4 majors and 6 PGA Tours, they also administer points to an additional 17 tours.

So there is 23 tours and 4 majors that all abide by the system and get points, and one tour that doesn't abide by the rules and yet still expects ranking points
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with the above....Sooo, by not bending to a rogue tour for OWGR points make the whole system unofficial...absolutely not.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Let me guess Shep. You've already set up an Excel spreadsheet that does this, and now you are looking to get sponsorship?
		
Click to expand...

I'm on it.


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All of us are ranked every time we submit a score to England Golf.
		
Click to expand...

Not unusually, absolute rubbish! Please specify the ranking of any fellow club member (to retain anonymity)!


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



*They are not owned by the PGAT or DPWT. *They are separate organisation who's stakeholder include 4 majors and 6 PGA Tours, they also administer points to an additional 17 tours.
		
Click to expand...

That's incorrect.  OWGR has seven equal stakeholders, two of them are PGAT and DPWT.  So the two major tours have a 29% stake, that's ownership.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Not unusually, absolute rubbish! Please specify the ranking of any fellow club member (to retain anonymity)!
		
Click to expand...

Your index is a ranking, the numbers can be ranked.  WHS adjusts your score differentials based on the difficulty of the course on which you're playing, and the other scores returned on the same day.  OWGR adjusts the points awarded based on the event ranking and the strength of the field.  The comparison is absolutely spot on.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			We are not ranked when we put in a score to Golf England

OWGR is not convoluted, how do you think it is

There is no ambiguity over qualifying criteria, it is published to anyone who wants to read it

It can accommodate "events" like that, as long as they are part of a tour that is already sanctioned by the OWGR
		
Click to expand...

I’m pretty sure you are ranked when you submit a score to England golf, infact if you go on HowDidiDo, you can see where you are ranked within your club - please explain to me how that is not true? 

The rest of your post, you’ve chosen to miss my point. Well done.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



*"Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours."[*/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Nothing stopping .....You, Me, LIV or anyone else from doing just that. *The pgatour would continue to use their sanctioned OWGR Org. for their purposes and LIV or anyone else could use theirs. Now will the major tournaments accept the results is something else.[
		
Click to expand...

Lack of funding stops me doing it.
Lack of independence stops LIV doing it.
Only you know what's stopping you doing it, if you say nothing then I sincerely hope you have a go because I'd welcome a ranking system that is independent.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Not unusually, absolute rubbish! Please specify the ranking of any fellow club member (to retain anonymity)!
		
Click to expand...

What does this image show please?


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



*Your index is a ranking*, the numbers can be ranked.  WHS adjusts your score differentials based on the difficulty of the course on which you're playing, and the other scores returned on the same day.  OWGR adjusts the points awarded based on the event ranking and the strength of the field.  The comparison is absolutely spot on.
		
Click to expand...

No it's not! It's a rating! A rating can subsequently be used to create a ranking, but is not, of itself, a ranking! Same as Course Rating or Slope Reting are not, of themselves, rankings. But are certainly ratings! I'll pose the same challenge to you, as I did to Mel...Show me the ranking of one of your fellow club members!


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			That's incorrect.  OWGR has six equal stakeholders, two of them are PGAT and DPWT, along with PGA of America, R&A, USGA and Augusta National.  So the two major tours have a 33% stake, that's ownership.
		
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It is not ownership in the traditional sense. They do not take profit from the enterprise, it simply set up at a Limited company for the limited protection it affords. It is set up more like the European Council, made up of all the Heads of State of the member countries, they do now own the EU but basically sit up at the table to run it and governance level.

33% is not even a majority, that is presuming that PGAT and DPWT will always vote the same way.

We also do not know how voting happens in OWGR, whether to pass new rules a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote is required. Either way the OWGR, or even PGAT have suggested that should LIV reach the criteria that they will be blocked from joining. In fact on the contrary OWGR have said that LIV need to reach the criteria


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What does this image show please? 
	View attachment 45073

Click to expand...

It shows a list of handicaps, it isn't a ranking. The closest you could get to a ranking is an Order of Merit, but even that is flawed, and that works on a much simpler scale, of everyone playing at the same course


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It is not ownership in the traditional sense. They do not take profit from the enterprise, it simply set up at a Limited company for the limited protection it affords. It is set up more like the European Council, made up of all the Heads of State of the member countries, they do now own the EU but basically sit up at the table to run it and governance level.

33% is not even a majority, that is presuming that PGAT and DPWT will always vote the same way.

We also do not know how voting happens in OWGR, whether to pass new rules a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote is required. Either way the OWGR, or even PGAT have suggested that should LIV reach the criteria that they will be blocked from joining. In fact on the contrary OWGR have said that LIV need to reach the criteria
		
Click to expand...

Profit is irrelevant, there isn't any - the question is one of control.  Jay Monahan and Keith Pelley sit on the governing board of the OWGR.  It is not independent of the tours so the fact that they do not want to sanction LIV events should not be a surprise to anyone.  All it means is that the majors now have to review their qualification criteria and decide if a ranking system that ignores loads of the world's best players is still useful to them.


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## IainP (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It shows a list of handicaps, it isn't a ranking. The closest you could get to a ranking is an Order of Merit, but even that is flawed, and that works on a much simpler scale, of everyone playing at the same course
		
Click to expand...

Suspect this is going a tad off topic, but when I go onto England Golf, I see something like this


(yep I'm not very good )  but that kind of looks like a ranking to me.....


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			What does this image show please? 
	View attachment 45073

Click to expand...

It shows a set of ratings! Though it has been ranked


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			No it's not! It's a rating! A rating can subsequently be used to create a ranking, but is not, of itself, a ranking! Same as Course Rating or Slope are not, of themselves, rankings. But are certainly ratings! I'll pose the same challenge to you, as I did to Mel...Show me the ranking of one of your fellow club members!
		
Click to expand...

If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
Honestly, this is so self evident I can't understand why you're being so obtuse.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Profit is irrelevant, there isn't any - the question is one of control.  Jay Monahan and Keith Pelley sit on the governing board of the OWGR.  It is not independent of the tours so the fact that they do not want to sanction LIV events should not be a surprise to anyone.  All it means is that the majors now have to review their qualification criteria and decide if a ranking system that ignores loads of the world's best players is still useful to them.
		
Click to expand...

As above 33% is not control its a minority share, assuming dpwt and pgat alway got together, they would still need two more of stakeholders to vote with them to pass the 50%threshold 

All of which is moot because neither PGAT or anyone has suggested that the entry criteria will be changed to stop LIV


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
Honestly, this is so self evident I can't understand why you're being so obtuse.
		
Click to expand...

That is not the same thing as world tour rankings, it's not even remotely similar


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 7, 2022)

I'm going go karting with my mates at the weekend. I have of course emailed the bosses of F1 to demand world championship points be awarded to us. Of course I understand that we don't meet their criteria for awarding those points but they need to change their system. Why should we have to change?


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			That is not the same thing as world tour rankings, it's not even remotely similar
		
Click to expand...

In what way is ordering one set of comparable numbers a ranking, and ordering another set of comparable numbers not a ranking?
When I want to find the relative position of a number in an ordered list, I use =RANK().
If it's good enough for Excel, it's good enough for me.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm going go karting with my mates at the weekend. I have of course emailed the bosses of F1 to demand world championship points be awarded to us. Of course I understand that we don't meet their criteria for awarding those points but they need to change their system. Why should we have to change?
		
Click to expand...

Scroll back a few pages and you'll see a number of other ridiculous comparisons; adding one more doesn't really further the debate.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 7, 2022)

Have we now concluded that we should just give all professional golfers a WHS Handicap Index, and we then have our new World Ranking system?


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed! But that's a separate process! Mel stated that simply returning a score (and the re-calc of your handicap) created a ranking. It doesn't! There's a separate process required, same as there is for calculating playing handicap from HI and Slope (2 more examples of ratings)!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Lack of funding stops me doing it.
Lack of independence stops LIV doing it.
Only you know what's stopping you doing it, if you say nothing then I sincerely hope you have a go because I'd welcome a ranking system that is independent.
		
Click to expand...

You're making my point.....short of your own system you must accept the established one that in affect.


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## LincolnShep (Nov 7, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Have we now concluded that we should just give all professional golfers a WHS Handicap Index, and we then have our new World Ranking system?
		
Click to expand...

Yes! Very productive brainstorming session.  Well done everyone.  I'll write up and circulate the minutes as usual.


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Suspect this is going a tad off topic, but when go onto England Golf, I see something like this
View attachment 45074

(yep I'm not very good )  but that kind of looks like a ranking to me.....
		
Click to expand...

Does to me too! But that's because the ratings have been processed further to provide a ranking!


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## IainP (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I suspect they actually already algorithms to cover those tournaments in conforming tours that have limited or invitation fields and no qualifiers. But they minimise the distortion these produce by requiring a minimum percentage of 'standard' style tournaments to mitigate any distortion.

LIV's 100% nonconforming style needs to change in order to receive OWGR points, but I doubt it will - just to continue to be 'loud' and a disrupter!
		
Click to expand...

Agree with the first section.
We shouldn't forget that the OWGR are gradually placing more emphasis on strokes gained which only needs 18 holes


So maybe the "distortion" part isn't relevant 🤔


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Scroll back a few pages and you'll see a number of other ridiculous comparisons; adding one more doesn't really further the debate.
		
Click to expand...

Why's it ridiculous? LIV don't meet the criteria to gain OWGR points and think everyone else should bend over for them and change the rules to suit them. I suspect that promises were made to those golfers signing up to LIV with regards to getting ranking points and they are now getting desperate to get those points awarded.


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Agree with the first section.
We shouldn't forget that the OWGR are gradually placing more emphasis on strokes gained which only needs 18 holes
View attachment 45076

So maybe the "distortion" part isn't relevant 🤔
		
Click to expand...

My understand is that is the Player part of the calculation. There's a Tournament element involved too - which is where the format comes in. If it was as simple as just the above, there would be no need for the compliance conditions and period. And FWIW, I think 'strokes gained' probably needs at least an entire tournament. to be relevant.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			It shows a set of ratings! Though it has been ranked
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, it shows players ranked in order of ability. So I'm correct.


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## IainP (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			My understand is that is the Player part of the calculation. There's a Tournament element involved too - which is where the format comes in. If it was as simple as just the above, there would be no need for the compliance conditions and period.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, it feeds into the strength of field.
Do you have a (direct) link to the format element referred to?
Similar to the qualifying piece, I've never been able to locate a verifiable link to them.


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Thank you, it shows players ranked in order of ability. So I'm correct.
		
Click to expand...

Only in your own mind!
It actually shows a ranking of players in ascending order of their ratings! A processing of their ratings! It would be just as sensible to *rank* them in alphabetical order!
Go lookup a dictionary to see the difference between rating and rank(ing)!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Tyrell Hatton rumoured to have agreed a deal to move over. They better get somebody on the ball with the "bleep out" button on the live mics.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Only in your own mind!
It actually shows a ranking of players in ascending order order of their ratings! A processing of their ratings! It would be just as sensible to *rank* them in alphabetical order!
Go lookup a dictionary to see the difference between *rating and rating!*

Click to expand...


The difference between rating and rating??

I think one is getting a little irate. ;-)


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

IainP said:



			Agree, it feeds into the strength of field.
Do you have a (direct) link to the format element referred to?
Similar to the qualifying piece, I've never been able to locate a verifiable link to them.
		
Click to expand...

Nor I! I suspect the actual calc is deemed a 'trade secret' and kept secure - as is the Datagolf one that uses slightly different parms and calcs.


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

I heard a rumour that they were chasing down Bernhard Langer......


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The difference between rating and rating??

I think one is getting a little irate. ;-)
		
Click to expand...

How rank of me!  Of course, I meant 'rating and rank'!


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## BiMGuy (Nov 7, 2022)

Funny how they are targeting players now. I thought they were queuing round the block to join?


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Funny how they are targeting players now. I thought they were queuing round the block to join?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it was just a very small block


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			Lack of funding stops me doing it.
Lack of independence stops LIV doing it.
Only you know what's stopping you doing it, if you say nothing then I sincerely hope you have a go because I'd welcome a ranking system that is independent.
		
Click to expand...

I believe OWGR *was* deemed independent! With the Board being made up of bodies that simply had the largest 'interest' wrt its rankings. But then LIV came along and has affected the rankings significantly enough to make the Majors concerned about the relevance! I figure a 'compromise' will eventually be worked out where LIV is accepted, but where the LIV Tournament ratings, at least initially, are less than if the tournament was played on a Tour that fully complies with OWGR rules. But that probably won't satisfy LIV, who quite likely prefer the conflict to exist anyway!


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Funny how they are targeting players now. I thought they were queuing round the block to join?
		
Click to expand...


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## SteveW86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Tyrell Hatton rumoured to have agreed a deal to move over. They better get somebody on the ball with the "bleep out" button on the live mics. 

Click to expand...

Atleast there won’t be many people watching to complain if they don’t bleep anything out.


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## Backsticks (Nov 7, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Atleast there won’t be many people watching to complain if they don’t bleep anything out.
		
Click to expand...

Bleeps. But louder.


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Funny how they are targeting players now. I thought they were queuing round the block to join?
		
Click to expand...

I thought they were full...


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

Well the Xander speculation is pretty hot today. Be another decent sigining if true.


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## SteveW86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the Xander speculation is pretty hot today. Be another decent sigining if true.
		
Click to expand...

I like how it’s talk of these “signings” moving across to LIV for the huge pot of money they are being paid just to turn up.

Slightly different to reading about the players who have just won their DPWT cards at the challenge tour finals.


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## Backsticks (Nov 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I thought they were full...

Click to expand...

Maybe they are thinking of expanding and becoming a cxxx tour ?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 7, 2022)

I guess we must go through this incessant speculation for quite some time, given the next event is not until February?

I put a question mark in, as I just looked at their website to check, and there is nothing. A Google check seems to give a very approximate guide to when the 2023 season starts, and potential locations, but just says TBD for courses.

Has the 2023 season not even been finalised yet, or at least announced to public?


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 7, 2022)

After all the rumours surely these players would deny it like Jon Rahm if it wasn't true.

Looks like Torque are going to have a great team next year if this is indeed true.

Xander Shauffele (Captain)
Joachim Niemann
Patrick Cantlay
Mito Perreira

https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/...ne-other-pga-tour-player-join-liv-golf-league

Xander tagged in the tweet, let's see if he deny's it 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589376388012081154


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I like how it’s talk of these “signings” moving across to LIV for the huge pot of money they are being paid just to turn up.

Slightly different to reading about the players who have just won their DPWT cards at the challenge tour finals.
		
Click to expand...

Quite literally a different league!
In one case a huge bung to an already very wealthy star; in the other a chance to make some decent money from their talent, maybe after getting out of debt!


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I thought they were full...

Click to expand...

Maybe they'll have to have qualifying and or a cut!


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the Xander speculation is pretty hot today. Be another decent sigining if true.
		
Click to expand...

With the others in the same rumour being announced at staggered intervals for maximum (disruptive) effect!.

Two of the new boys will almost certainly stay within qualification range for Masters 2023 Christmas Top 50 criteria, with Niemann likely to do so too.


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

LincolnShep said:



			If you arrange the *indices* in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the *points gained* in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting *things* (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, missed or forgot replying to this.
If you append (1st 2) or prefix (3rd) the highlighted words with 'rating', you should realise the difference between the two meanings. And you can have a rating(s) without having a ranking, but not the other way around! And FWIW, I don't believe OWGR does arrange points gained. They merely assign them as per tournament finishing position definition. They subsequently calculate new average points values for all players to create the ranking. Not that a ranking always has to have an ordering process, while a rating doesn't.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 7, 2022)

And I get lambasted on here for apparently putting ‘spin’ on things…


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## Ian_George (Nov 7, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And I get lambasted on here for apparently putting ‘spin’ on things…

Click to expand...

That's because you (appear to) do so! And if your post was directed at me or my post, my post was simply facts, not opinion, nor spin! It was part of the syllabus I taught to 14-16 yr-olds many years ago!


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			That's because you (appear to) do so! And if your post was directed at me or my post, my post was simply facts, not opinion, nor spin! It was part of the syllabus I taught to 14-16 yr-olds many years ago!
		
Click to expand...

Says Mr PGA bot 🤣🤣🤣👍


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

[



Ian_George said:



			That's because you (appear to) do so! And if your post was directed at me or my post, my post was simply facts, not opinion, nor spin! It was part of the syllabus I taught to 14-16 yr-olds many years ago!
		
Click to expand...

So what are we saying then, the handicap list at a golf club (in order of handicap) that ranks the players from low to high, isn't infact a ranking, but a _rating?_

Thats your argument to prove me wrong that we all aren't ranked at our golf clubs when we submit a score - somebody else has also posted an image that shows where we are all ranked by percentage in club, county and country. According to you, it's a rating, not a ranking?

Well here's the definition of rating...

_"a classification or *ranking *of someone or something based on a comparative assessment of their quality, standard, or performance."_


And here's the definition of a ranking...

_"a position in a hierarchy or scale"_

In this case, the scale is golfers ability, by their handicap.

Jeez Oh! - as they say in Scotland.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Tyrell Hatton rumoured to have agreed a deal to move over. They better get somebody on the ball with the "bleep out" button on the live mics. 

Click to expand...

Looks like this is incorrect information, apparently it came from the NLU pod yesterday, in which they were having a pop at a few people who they deem are pro LIV.

One of the "LIV bots" as people like to call them, has checked if this (Hatton) rumour had any substance and it's apparently untrue.

Shame as he would have been comdey gold missing putts for millions of dollars.


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## Ian_George (Nov 8, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Says Mr PGA bot 🤣🤣🤣👍
		
Click to expand...

 I think you should check what 'bot' actually means! 'Fanboy' might be a valid opinion, but I'd deny being that too! I'm not actually against LIV's existence, but really don't like the way LIV has acted - and acts!


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## Ian_George (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So what are we saying then, the handicap list at a golf club (in order of handicap) that ranks the players from low to high, isn't infact a ranking, but a _rating?_
...
		
Click to expand...

No!
The clue is in the number of items! If there's 1, then it can't be a ranking; if there's more than 1, then it's a list, with the possibility that the list is a ranking (of ratings)!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Jeez oh.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Nov 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589947123763658753


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589947123763658753

Click to expand...

Great article, headlines with an attention grabbing title about the history of the game then eulogises all the great Americans that developed the sport, with barely a mention of the European and rest of the world players that contributed. 

No doubt it’ll be lapped up by plenty though.


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589947123763658753

Click to expand...

Oh that’s so noble and virtue signalling 👀


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Oh that’s so noble and virtue signalling 👀
		
Click to expand...

“The PGA Tour was responsible for increasing prize money, but now LIV is doing it, its wrong!!!”


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## Ian_George (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			“The PGA Tour was responsible for increasing prize money, but now LIV is doing it, its wrong!!!”
		
Click to expand...

Source of quotes should always be stated with the quote! Or have you simply made it up?
FWIW, i don't believe the PGA Tour deserves the adulation that some give it. Thanks for its existence and efforts, certainly; but it has been mutually beneficial!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Source of quotes should always be stated with the quote! Or have you simply made it up?
FWIW, i don't believe the PGA Tour deserves the adulation that some give it. Thanks for its existence and efforts, certainly; but it has been mutually beneficial!
		
Click to expand...

I’ve made it up, following the trend that has been set in the article quoted. 

A paraphrased summary of the message in the piece.


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## Ian_George (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’ve made it up, following the trend that has been set in the article quoted.
		
Click to expand...

That simply confirms my assertion about stating source of the quote! The GM quote quoted from an article in a GM magazine!


Mel Smooth said:



			A *paraphrased summary *of the message in the piece.
...
		
Click to expand...

Yeah! Riiight! I could agree with 'An alternative view'. But your statement is absolute horse manure!


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## IainP (Nov 8, 2022)

If confirmed, feel this is a bit of a mockery. Second year in a row playing zero actual PGA Tour rounds.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			If confirmed, feel this is a bit of a mockery. Second year in a row playing zero actual PGA Tour rounds.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

Click to expand...

The whole PIP thing is a joke tbh


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			If confirmed, feel this is a bit of a mockery. Second year in a row playing zero actual PGA Tour rounds.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

Click to expand...

Yeah, but he’s got his face on a golf game 👀


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			If confirmed, feel this is a bit of a mockery. Second year in a row playing zero actual PGA Tour rounds.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

Click to expand...


Most of his clicks seem to be on the back of Charlie's presence on a golf course or driving range.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			If confirmed, feel this is a bit of a mockery. Second year in a row playing zero actual PGA Tour rounds.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

Click to expand...

That just indicates how much of a legendary figure Tiger Woods still is, I guess.

PIP isn't a metric simply based on performances. If players perform well, they earn their money through prize money at each comp, and the FedEx money. They keep their sponsors happy as well, and I'm sure McIlroy is pretty content with life generally.

The PGA Tour obviously feel they benefit hugely from simply having Tiger associated with them. Whether he plays or not, the media still love talking about him.


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## IainP (Nov 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That just indicates how much of a legendary figure Tiger Woods still is, I guess.

PIP isn't a metric simply based on performances. If players perform well, they earn their money through prize money at each comp, and the FedEx money. They keep their sponsors happy as well, and I'm sure McIlroy is pretty content with life generally.

The PGA Tour obviously feel they benefit hugely from simply having Tiger associated with them. Whether he plays or not, the media still love talking about him.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah Tiger is a legend alright, but they did name it '*player* impact programme'

Below are a couple of metrics, a reminder why so many old Tiger clips during the 'telecasts' I guess.

4)TV Sponsor Exposure: Duration (time) that a player’s sponsor logo(s) appears on screen during Saturday and Sunday PGA TOUR telecasts;
5)Awareness: A player’s general awareness score among broad U.S. population.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah Tiger is a legend alright, but they did name it '*player* impact programme'

Below are a couple of metrics, a reminder why so many old Tiger clips during the 'telecasts' I guess.

4)TV Sponsor Exposure: Duration (time) that a player’s sponsor logo(s) appears on screen during Saturday and Sunday PGA TOUR telecasts;
5)Awareness: A player’s general awareness score among broad U.S. population.
		
Click to expand...

Still a player though


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Still a player though 

Click to expand...

He was a fantastic player in his day, but those days are gone. While we can argue about the accuracy of Rankings over LIV plaayers, Tiger sits outside the top 1000. 

He'll probably win it for the next 5 years based on what we've seen in the last two years of the programme, it's effectively a foregone conclusion, and the rest of the players that are still competing have no chance of winning it.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That just indicates how much of a legendary figure Tiger Woods still is, I guess.

PIP isn't a metric simply based on performances. If players perform well, they earn their money through prize money at each comp, and the FedEx money. They keep their sponsors happy as well, and I'm sure McIlroy is pretty content with life generally.

The PGA Tour obviously feel they benefit hugely from simply having Tiger associated with them. Whether he plays or not, the media still love talking about him.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree.....also consider it back pay for carrying the tour and the golf channel for the last 25 years.

People will never see another golfer as the athlete of the year post Tiger Woods.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He was a fantastic player in his day, but those days are gone. While we can argue about the accuracy of Rankings over LIV plaayers, Tiger sits outside the top 1000.

He'll probably win it for the next 5 years based on what we've seen in the last two years of the programme, it's effectively a foregone conclusion, and the rest of the players that are still competing have no chance of winning it.
		
Click to expand...

I certainly wasn't arguing that Tiger was currently the No1 golfer, or close to it. Simply that he has still got a huge impact.

I'm sure you can't complain at least, being a huge fan of a tour that handed Mickleson €200 million


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## cleveland52 (Nov 8, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He was a fantastic player in his day, but those days are gone. While we can argue about the accuracy of Rankings over LIV plaayers, Tiger sits outside the top 1000.

He'll probably win it for the next 5 years based on what we've seen in the last two years of the programme, it's effectively a foregone conclusion, and the rest of the players that are still competing have no chance of winning it.
		
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I guarantee that you'd love him to come over to LIV Golf right now....LOL!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 8, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I certainly wasn't arguing that Tiger was currently the No1 golfer, or close to it. Simply that he has still got a huge impact.

I'm sure you can't complain at least, being a huge fan of a tour that handed Mickleson €200 million
		
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Why would I be complaining, it has no impact on me whatsoever, although I'm sure there are a few quietly disgruntled players on the PGA Tour who perhaps feel the qualifying criteria need to be amended.

Won't happen of course. Tiger is the needle as far as the PGA Tour is concerned, the golden egg.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He was a fantastic player in his day, but those days are gone. While we can argue about the accuracy of Rankings over LIV plaayers, Tiger sits outside the top 1000.

He'll probably win it for the next 5 years based on what we've seen in the last two years of the programme, it's effectively a foregone conclusion, and the rest of the players that are still competing have no chance of winning it.
		
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PIP_ extended_ eligibility deliberately lasts for 4 years from last year a player satisfies the _basic_ eligibility criteria. So Tiger's extended eligibility expires season ending 30 September 2024. Of course, he might regain basic eligibility, but I very much doubt that, as he'd need, according to info I've seen, to play 20 tournaments in a year, including 11 of 12 The PGAT have specified, to do so!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why would I be complaining, it has no impact on me whatsoever, although I'm sure there are a few quietly disgruntled players on the PGA Tour who perhaps feel the qualifying criteria need to be amended.

Won't happen of course. Tiger is the needle as far as the PGA Tour is concerned, the golden egg.
		
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Maybe the disgruntled players went to LIV? Separate out the players who play primarily for the love of golf, and the jealous ones who play primarily for the cash.


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## AussieKB (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe the disgruntled players went to LIV? Separate out the players who play primarily for the love of golf, and the jealous ones who play primarily for the cash.
		
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Well that excludes all those that take appearance money then, or is the old case of double standards.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well that excludes all those that take appearance money then, or is the old case of double standards.

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I'm afraid we are talking about Mel's theory here, not mine. And we are talking exclusively about PIP. So, if there are disgruntled players about Tiger, completely ignoring the fact that he us a huge reason they have done as well as they have financially, then they can follow the money to LIV.

I'm sure Phil Mickleson fits the bill. And, perhaps you just have to accept that Cameron Smith's motivation is primarily financial, more so than his potential future in playing in Majors and the big PGA events. Which is fine, you can fly your flag high everytime he credits his bank account with another huge cheque from LIV


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Maybe the disgruntled players went to LIV?* Separate out the players who play primarily for the love of golf, and the jealous ones who play primarily for the cash.
		
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They quite obviously have, (not just over tigger winning the PIP), but over the way they feel about playing on the PGA tour or DPW Tour to a lesser extent.

If somebody moves from one organisation to another, it's usually because they feel it's better for them personally. However, you generally find those shouting loudest to defend the PGA Tour, are the ones that have heard an absolute stack of money while playing there - so I'm not sure your "playing for the love of golf " argument would be 100% correct.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They quite obviously have, (not just over tigger winning the PIP), but over the way they feel about playing on the PGA tour or DPW Tour to a lesser extent.

If somebody moves from one organisation to another, it's usually because they feel it's better for them personally. However, you generally find those shouting loudest to defend the PGA Tour, are the ones that have heard an absolute stack of money while playing there - so I'm not sure your "playing for the love of golf " argument would be 100% correct.
		
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Many of these LIV players have told us they are happy about playing much less golf, and earning mega amounts of money whilst doing it.

They probably don't love golf that much, relative to their peers on the PGA anyway. Or maybe they just didn't like the pressure in golf, and having to keep playing at a high level. They prefer less pressure, whilst still being able to guarantee their income.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Yes, less pressure and more money = better for the indivdual.

Given the pressure some of them have played under though with the multiple major wins, Ryder Cup events etc - I'd say you're way off the mark on how much they love golf and the pressure it can bring.


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## AussieKB (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm afraid we are talking about Mel's theory here, not mine. And we are talking exclusively about PIP. So, if there are disgruntled players about Tiger, completely ignoring the fact that he us a huge reason they have done as well as they have financially, then they can follow the money to LIV.

I'm sure Phil Mickleson fits the bill. And, perhaps you just have to accept that Cameron Smith's motivation is primarily financial, more so than his potential future in playing in Majors and the big PGA events. Which is fine, you can fly your flag high everytime he credits his bank account with another huge cheque from LIV 

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I suppose Cam could play a few exibiton 4 balls with Phil DJ and Brooks but then they would be accused of doing it for the money


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## BiMGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I suppose Cam could play a few exibiton 4 balls with Phil DJ and Brooks but then they would be accused of doing it for the money 

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At least they wouldn’t be pretending otherwise


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## IainP (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



*Many of these LIV players have told us they are happy about playing much less golf,* and earning mega amounts of money whilst doing it.

They probably don't love golf that much, relative to their peers on the PGA anyway. Or maybe they just didn't like the pressure in golf, and having to keep playing at a high level. They prefer less pressure, whilst still being able to guarantee their income.
		
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There's an old journalist saying - never let facts ruin a good story 😄
Thought it had been established on this thread, only 2% actually said this. 🤷‍♂️
Maybe you are correct  - at each time of asking previously no-one could back it up...


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

IainP said:



			There's an old journalist saying - never let facts ruin a good story 😄
Thought it had been established on this thread, only 2% actually said this. 🤷‍♂️
Maybe you are correct  - at each time of asking previously no-one could back it up...
		
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OK, fair enough, maybe we only heard one or 2 players say it. The players we have actually heard off, and journalists can be bothered interviewing. So, I hold my hands up, I extended this reason for joining LIV to others we have not heard say it. Because, let us be honest, no one cares enough about 60-80% of the other golfers in the field to have heard what their motivations are. Although it is probable that it is about the money for them, as they are not in the same league as the handful of decent players or has beens in LIV.

Anyway, just out of my own flaky memory, I thought I heard at least DJ, Bryson and Westwood discuss they were happy with playing less golf, as it gives them more time with family / other interests?


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## AussieKB (Nov 9, 2022)

I'm shocked it's about the money....isn't that what Pro's play for ?
or maybe we all go into work because we love it.

Glad I'm retired, but I still think about the money.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I suppose Cam could play a few exibiton 4 balls with Phil DJ and Brooks but then they would be accused of doing it for the money 

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I wouldn't care about that. Why would I? Tiger has played Phil in the past, Bryson played Brooks. They are welcome to do so, and if they earn a lot of money doing it, well played to them. I didn't really watch any of them, but I saw little bits and pieces. It all looked very relaxed and jovial (i.e. as a fan, it lacked a lot of competitiveness about it, more like a friendly social round). 

But, they were nice and open about it. They called it an exhibition. Just reading the BBC website discussing the upcoming The Match, between Tiger / Rory versus Spieth / Thomas. Second sentence says "Fifteen-time major champion Woods, who helped launch the *exhibition* event in 2018, returns for the seventh edition...". I'm sure no one is crying that the BBC call it an exhibition, least of all Tiger. They probably won't demand that they are entitles to World Ranking Points because of the fact there 100% of the players are top quality (or 75% if we take into account Tiger could be classed as a has been)


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Yes, less pressure and more money = better for the indivdual.*

Given the pressure some of them have played under though with the multiple major wins, Ryder Cup events etc - I'd say you're way off the mark on how much they love golf and the pressure it can bring.
		
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I agree with this. But, I'm more interested what is better for the fans, after all that is what will grow the game.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I'm shocked it's about the money....isn't that what Pro's play for ?
or maybe we all go into work because we love it.

Glad I'm retired, but I still think about the money.
		
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if you read my very early posts, I never criticised the players that went for the money. If that is what interests them, they are welcome to it.

However, when we are talking about the very top players, they are already multi multi millionaires, and are likely to continue earning millions and millions in the future. So, they are in a better position than us to turn down better job offers, don't you think?

But, I'm not a player. I'm a fan, and therefore I'm more interested in how it impacts my experience of watching the game. The European Super League in European football was universally slated by fans, even fans of the clubs that were going to join it, for significantly more money AND less pressure in having to qualify each year. Therefore, it fell on its backside. So, just because the professionals involved may be able to make more money, that does not directly equate to happier fans.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree with this. But, I'm more interested what is better for the fans, after all that is what will grow the game.
		
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Both, obviously. The more choice, the greater the appeal. 

It’s quite obvious LIV is picking up a younger audience. How can that be a bad thing?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			if you read my very early posts, I never criticised the players that went for the money. If that is what interests them, they are welcome to it.

However, when we are talking about the very top players, they are already multi multi millionaires, and are likely to continue earning millions and millions in the future. So, they are in a better position than us to turn down better job offers, don't you think?

But, I'm not a player. I'm a fan, and therefore I'm more interested in how it impacts my experience of watching the game. The European Super League in European football was universally slated by fans, even fans of the clubs that were going to join it, for significantly more money AND less pressure in having to qualify each year. Therefore, it fell on its backside. So, just because the professionals involved may be able to make more money, that does not directly equate to happier fans.
		
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The European Super League took teams away from the existing league structure. 

LIV players are free to play wherever the choose, or are allowed. That’s the significant difference.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The European Super League took teams away from the existing league structure.

LIV players are free to play wherever the choose, or are allowed. That’s the significant difference.
		
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So, if a player played in 25 events on the PGA Tour pre LIV, then when they join LIV would they still have played 25 events on the PGA Tour PLUS to exhibition style events on LIV? Or, would they have reduced their playing time on the more competitive PGA Tour (or any other Tour), so that they could accommodate the time they played on LIV? And, only having to compete against 47 other golfers on LIV, removing a full days golf to be watched by fans, and condensing ALL the golf into 4 or 5 hours on the other 3 days, rather than spreading things over the day to give fans more flexibility as to when they tune in to watch it.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, if a player played in 25 events on the PGA Tour pre LIV, then when they join LIV would they still have played 25 events on the PGA Tour PLUS to exhibition style events on LIV? Or, would they have reduced their playing time on the more competitive PGA Tour (or any other Tour), so that they could accommodate the time they played on LIV? And, only having to compete against 47 other golfers on LIV, removing a full days golf to be watched by fans, and condensing ALL the golf into 4 or 5 hours on the other 3 days, rather than spreading things over the day to give fans more flexibility as to when they tune in to watch it.
		
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They’d play as many events on the PGA tour as agreed with the PGA Tour I’d guess? That’s if the powers that be hadn’t removed that as an option. 

How many golfers post cut on a tour event have a chance of contributing to the final positions? 
On LIV, they all do.. 

It’s different, it’s meant to be different, it’s meant to appeal to different people. You seem to be having a hard time accepting that. 

Ultimately- it’s still competitive golf despite the continuous spin you keep trying to put on it about it being exhibition golf.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They’d play as many events on the PGA tour as agreed with the PGA Tour I’d guess? That’s if the powers that be hadn’t removed that as an option.

How many golfers post cut on a tour event have a chance of contributing to the final positions?
On LIV, they all do..

*It’s different, it’s meant to be different, it’s meant to appeal to different people. You seem to be having a hard time accepting that.*

Ultimately- it’s still competitive golf despite the continuous spin you keep trying to put on it about it being exhibition golf.
		
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I know you love making things up, possibly the worst I've ever seen at trying to read between the lines. I've never said it wasn't different, and always realised it was trying to be different. I also never said it doesn't appeal to anyone. It is clear that it appeals to you and a few others (e.g. the Cameron Smith fan club  ).

However, I doubt it means a whole lot to the significant majority of golf fans, and am dubious it has found a whole new sector of fans who never watched golf before. Maybe a few, but not bucket loads. You'd find that people that cared enough to watch golf on the television pre-LIV, would have been happy enough to put their hands in their pockets and pay a subscription to Sky. People who were not that bothered, wouldn't have put their hand in their pockets, and use their money for other things.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I know you love making things up, possibly the worst I've ever seen at trying to read between the lines. I've never said it wasn't different, and always realised it was trying to be different. I also never said it doesn't appeal to anyone. It is clear that it appeals to you and a few others (e.g. the Cameron Smith fan club  ).

However, I doubt it means a whole lot to the significant majority of golf fans, and am dubious it has found a whole new sector of fans who never watched golf before. Maybe a few, but not bucket loads. You'd find that people that cared enough to watch golf on the television pre-LIV, would have been happy enough to put their hands in their pockets and pay a subscription to Sky. People who were not that bothered, wouldn't have put their hand in their pockets, and use their money for other things.
		
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Right, “golf fans” in this case existing tour golf) are generally over 65, and can afford to pay for Sky. 
If there’s an untapped audience of younger people who can’t afford or justify Sky, that want something condensed into a shorter and more vibrant package, then why not build a product for them? Or are only wealthy old people allowed to be “golf fans”


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## AussieKB (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			if you read my very early posts, I never criticised the players that went for the money. If that is what interests them, they are welcome to it.

However, when we are talking about the very top players, they are already multi multi millionaires, and are likely to continue earning millions and millions in the future. So, they are in a better position than us to turn down better job offers, don't you think?

But, I'm not a player. I'm a fan, and therefore I'm more interested in how it impacts my experience of watching the game. The European Super League in European football was universally slated by fans, even fans of the clubs that were going to join it, for significantly more money AND less pressure in having to qualify each year. Therefore, it fell on its backside. So, just because the professionals involved may be able to make more money, that does not directly equate to happier fans.
		
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I agree with happier fans....for us out here in the colonies we do not get see them or our home grown talent, because the PGA created the year round tour....now they are changing that but a bit late for us....(LIV arrived)


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## AussieKB (Nov 9, 2022)

Yes I am a  cam Smith fan also A DJ Rory and heaps of others on both sides, the bottom line is I want to see the best play against each other in the Majors.....I just don't understand where people want the Majors to be diluted.

Plus on the upside for us we get to see top pro's playing in OZ again.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Right, “golf fans” in this case existing tour golf) are generally over 65, and can afford to pay for Sky.
If there’s an untapped audience of younger people who can’t afford or justify Sky, that want something condensed into a shorter and more vibrant package, then why not build a product for them? *Or are only wealthy old people allowed to be “golf fans”*

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Are you trying to play the victim again, use an argument that is meant to pull on the heart strings? make it sound like I am saying poor people cannot be golf fans?

Wise up. It is a fact of life that things cost a certain amount of money. For the sake of a night or 2 out a month on booze, a person can afford to pay for a subscription that will get them golf and several other sports like football, F1, cricket, etc. But, it is up to every individual how they spend their money. I think we are also fairly aware that it is NOT in LIV's business model to give free golf to the masses. Maybe in the first year or 2 to try and generate support (or just the fact they couldn't secure a deal). If Sky Sports were to come along and offer them a whopping great broadcasting deal, LIV would bite their hands off. Then you will all have to pay for it again, and probably even more so than now if LIV has well and truly "grown the game"


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Yes I am a  cam Smith fan also A DJ Rory and heaps of others on both sides, the bottom line is I want to see the best play against each other in the Majors.....*I just don't understand where people want the Majors to be diluted.*

Plus on the upside for us we get to see top pro's playing in OZ again.
		
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Were you not roundly mocked for trying to say a similar thing a while ago? Who wants the Majors diluted!?


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well that excludes all those that take appearance money then, or is the old case of double standards.

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Officially, there is no 'Appearance Money' allowed on The PGA Tour. But as in Tennis in the 'shamateur' days many years ago, there are many ways around that. !https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bu... World Tour,-the-course endorsement contracts.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Were you not roundly mocked for trying to say a similar thing a while ago? Who wants the Majors diluted!?
		
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I’ve no problem with LiV players who are exempt or qualify playing in the Majors.

However, part of me would like to see them banned just to see the meltdown.

Meanwhile the LiV supporters will keep making up statistics and narratives to suit their own views and agenda. 

I’m now questioning whether I’m old enough or wealthy enough to have Sky Sports 🤔


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Are you trying to play the victim again, use an argument that is meant to pull on the heart strings? make it sound like I am saying poor people cannot be golf fans?

Wise up. It is a fact of life that things cost a certain amount of money. For the sake of a night or 2 out a month on booze, a person can afford to pay for a subscription that will get them golf and several other sports like football, F1, cricket, etc. But, it is up to every individual how they spend their money. I think we are also fairly aware that it is NOT in LIV's business model to give free golf to the masses. Maybe in the first year or 2 to try and generate support (or just the fact they couldn't secure a deal). If Sky Sports were to come along and offer them a whopping great broadcasting deal, LIV would bite their hands off. Then you will all have to pay for it again, and probably even more so than now if LIV has well and truly "grown the game"
		
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Well personally I’d pay to watch LIV over the vast majority of your events, because I enjoy it a lot more.

And stop with the victim BS, I’m making relevant points about differing audiences and where their preferences are. The financial aspect is just part of it, but not the only reason people won’t pay to watch tour golf. It’s targeted at old people, that’s a fact, so young people wont be as inclined to tune in.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:





Swango1980 said:



			Still a player though 

Click to expand...

He was a fantastic player in his day, but those days are gone. While we can argue about the accuracy of Rankings over LIV plaayers, Tiger sits outside the top 1000.

He'll probably win it for the next 5 years based on what we've seen in the last two years of the programme, it's effectively a foregone conclusion, and the rest of the players that are still competing have no chance of winning it.
		
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Whooosh!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well personally I’d pay to watch LIV over the vast majority of your events, because I enjoy it a lot more.

And stop with the victim BS, I’m making relevant points about differing audiences and where their preferences are. The financial aspect is just part of it, but not the only reason people won’t pay to watch tour golf. It’s targeted at old people, that’s a fact, so young people won’t tune in.
		
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You asked a silly question "are wealthy people only allowed to be golf fans".

How is it targeted at older fans? Are you saying the PGA is targeted towards old people, or the broadcasters? I'd say that is largely untrue (although see caveat below), especially as it has evolved so much over the years to make golf look trendy and cool. Focus a lot more on golfers being athletes, etc. How does LIV appeal to younger fans? By allowing players to wear shorts? By having dinosaurs like Greg Norman and Phil Mickleson as the figureheads?

At the end of the day, although golf will try and get younger and younger fans, the key target audience will always be middle aged to older people. Why? Well, many younger people interested in sports will be involved in active sports such as football, rugby, cricket, etc through their 20's and 30's. They will simply have less time to get into golf by being able to play it. And, playing golf costs more as well, simply because of membership fees and equipment. Younger people will have less disposable income, in general. However, as their active sports careers come to an end, that is when many will pick up golf to continue on with their competitive instincts, and all being well they will be able to continue playing well after retirement age. As they play, they will also become more interested in watching the game, now they know more about it.

So, I'd say the Tours that have been about for a while, and been successful, have a pretty good idea who their audience is, and how to maximise their audience. They'll have tweaked things time and time again to continually try and improve this. However, it sounds like you and LIV have no idea who your audience is, and just think you'll magically pull new fans out of thin air. Well, if you are using the fact it is free to watch as a big reason it will get new fans (which is one of your arguments that at least has a small iota of logic to it), then expect to lose many of those fans as soon as LIV gets a broadcasting deal


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why would I be complaining, it has no impact on me whatsoever, although *I'm sure there are a few quietly disgruntled players on the PGA Tour who perhaps feel the qualifying criteria need to be amended.*

Won't happen of course. Tiger is the needle as far as the PGA Tour is concerned, the golden egg.
		
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PIP money goes to more than simply the winner! And PIP is deliberately designed to allow rewards for players *after* they've retired from active PGA play! So, unless you can actually quote specific players and their 'grievances' your speculation is unwarranted anti-PGA gossip!


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## Beezerk (Nov 9, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			PIP money goes to more than simply the winner! And PIP is deliberately designed to allow rewards for players *after* they've retired from active PGA play! So, unless you can actually quote specific players and their 'grievances' your speculation is unwarranted anti-PGA gossip!
		
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Are we not allowed to gossip on these pages, after all it is a golf forum, pub banter if you will.
Again it seems anything anti PGA and an attempt to cancel it happens, anything anti LIV and it’s a free for all.
Btw I couldn’t care less about LIV or PGA 😉


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You asked a silly question "are wealthy people only allowed to be golf fans".

How is it targeted at older fans? Are you saying the PGA is targeted towards old people, or the broadcasters? I'd say that is largely untrue (although see caveat below), especially as it has evolved so much over the years to make golf look trendy and cool. Focus a lot more on golfers being athletes, etc. How does LIV appeal to younger fans? By allowing players to wear shorts? By having dinosaurs like Greg Norman and Phil Mickleson as the figureheads?

At the end of the day, although golf will try and get younger and younger fans, the key target audience will always be middle aged to older people. Why? Well, many younger people interested in sports will be involved in active sports such as football, rugby, cricket, etc through their 20's and 30's. They will simply have less time to get into golf by being able to play it. And, playing golf costs more as well, simply because of membership fees and equipment. Younger people will have less disposable income, in general. However, as their active sports careers come to an end, that is when many will pick up golf to continue on with their competitive instincts, and all being well they will be able to continue playing well after retirement age. As they play, they will also become more interested in watching the game, now they know more about it.

So, I'd say the Tours that have been about for a while, and been successful, have a pretty good idea who their audience is, and how to maximise their audience. They'll have tweaked things time and time again to continually try and improve this. However, it sounds like you and LIV have no idea who your audience is, and just think you'll magically pull new fans out of thin air. Well, if you are using the fact it is free to watch as a big reason it will get new fans (which is one of your arguments that at least has a small iota of logic to it), then expect to lose many of those fans as soon as LIV gets a broadcasting deal
		
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You write a lot and say little. 

Competitive golf is played by young people, if the audience is old, then there’s a huge hole in the way the product is marketed.,


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			PIP money goes to more than simply the winner! And PIP is deliberately designed to allow rewards for players *after* they've retired from active PGA play! So, unless you can actually quote specific players and their 'grievances' your speculation is unwarranted anti-PGA gossip!
		
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Oh shut up. 

It’s an opinion, that’s all. Stop being so pedantic. Or call the internet police, whichever you prefer.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Are we not allowed to gossip on these pages, after all it is a golf forum, pub banter if you will.
Again it seems anything anti PGA and an attempt to cancel it happens, anything anti LIV and it’s a free for all.
Btw I couldn’t care less about LIV or PGA 😉
		
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Gossip is fine. But, imo, in a thread seriously discussing the merits, or otherwise, of any issue, it either needs to be clearly indicated as gossip or challenged as such!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Gossip is fine. But, imo, in a thread seriously discussing the merits, or otherwise, of any issue, it either needs to be clearly indicated as gossip or challenged as such!
		
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“Quietly disgruntled” did you read it? 

I guess not…..


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You write a lot and* I read* little.

Competitive golf is played by young people, if the audience is old, then there’s a huge hole in the way the product is marketed.,
		
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Let me correct you

You still don't understand why the audience is older then?

I bet the average age of the audience watching football is older than the players that play it as well. Same for any sport. We can all be fans long after we actually play the sport. With golf, it is a simple fact that many will naturally take it up later in life for obvious reasons, and that in turn will bring in more fans to watching the sport.

You still have not told me how LIV is specifically marketed towards younger people. Except the fact it is free on youtube, which is almost certainly not part of the business model LIV are looking to keep going forward.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Damn! Caught out!

My propaganda has been challenged! Stop quoting facts that showing the truth (not the Trump definition)!

Click to expand...

FTFY!


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			“Quietly disgruntled” did you read it?

I guess not…..
		
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Yes I did. But irrelevant, as there's already a 'gossip cum propaganda alert' indicator on your posts!  FWIW, can you name any who might back up your 'claim'?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Let me correct you

You still don't understand why the audience is older then?

I bet the average age of the audience watching football is older than the players that play it as well. Same for any sport. We can all be fans long after we actually play the sport. With golf, it is a simple fact that many will naturally take it up later in life for obvious reasons, and that in turn will bring in more fans to watching the sport.

*You still have not told me how LIV is specifically marketed towards younger people.* Except the fact it is free on youtube, which is almost certainly not part of the business model LIV are looking to keep going forward.
		
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Why do I have to do that? There's an endless list of factors - it being free on You Tube has helped but so will a TV deal, which they will have next year. Six and two threes.

It must just be coincidence that they're hitting a demographic 20 years younger than the PGA Tour?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why do I have to do that? There's an endless list of factors - it being free on You Tube has helped but so will a TV deal, which they will have next year. Six and two threes.

It must just be coincidence that they're hitting a demographic 20 years younger than the PGA Tour?
		
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Where are you getting those stats from?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			FTFY!

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I always have   a little smirk when people resort to low level trolling like this.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Competitive golf is played by young people, if the audience is old, then there’s a huge hole in the way the product is marketed.,
		
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That seems like an admission that LIV is primarily non-competitive!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where are you getting those stats from?
		
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The internet.


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## IainP (Nov 9, 2022)

Suspect there aren't any definite stats on the age profiles, just like there aren't any on global viewing figures, but there was this from a few months back

https://www.baystatebanner.com/2022...verse-millennial-fans-and-the-future-of-golf/

I probably qualify as an ageing golftv subscriber 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

It makes sense that anything that is new will attract a greater percentage of younger fans. That does not highlight it being any better, it is just a fact that something is new. Older fans will have already grown up to know what they enjoy, and are therefore less likely to suddenly become a fan of something different. Younger fans are often new to the sport, and are going to be more open to the options available. They'll be none the wiser about what works well in one version over another. However, they'll be able to make that judgement better once they've had time to take things in.

If LIV had been about for decades, and suddenly the PGA Tour burst on the scene, I would expect the PGA to have a higher percentage of younger fans as well. 

Stats can be dressed up to be hugely misleading. If LIV could prove that it had, for example, 500 million huge fans in the age group of under 35, whilst the PGA Tour only had 100 million fans in the same age group, then that would give them a stronger case. However, if they say that 40% of LIV fans are under 35, whilst the PGA only has 30% younger fans, it means nothing. All that might mean is that LIV has 4 fans, from a total of 10, that are under 35. Whilst the PGA might have 135 million golf fans under 35, out of a total of 450 million.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The internet.
		
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Twitter and when people ask on Twitter where it comes from it’s met with a wall of silence


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			It makes sense that anything that is new will attract a greater percentage of younger fans. That does not highlight it being any better, it is just a fact that something is new. Older fans will have already grown up to know what they enjoy, and are therefore less likely to suddenly become a fan of something different. Younger fans are often new to the sport, and are going to be more open to the options available. They'll be none the wiser about what works well in one version over another. However, they'll be able to make that judgement better once they've had time to take things in.

If LIV had been about for decades, and suddenly the PGA Tour burst on the scene, I would expect the PGA to have a higher percentage of younger fans as well.

Stats can be dressed up to be hugely misleading. If LIV could prove that it had, for example, 500 million huge fans in the age group of under 35, whilst the PGA Tour only had 100 million fans in the same age group, then that would give them a stronger case. However, if they say that 40% of LIV fans are under 35, whilst the PGA only has 30% younger fans, it means nothing. All that might mean is that LIV has 4 fans, from a total of 10, that are under 35. Whilst the PGA might have 135 million golf fans under 35, out of a total of 450 million.
		
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Confirming the old 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' saying!


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## Dando (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well personally I’d pay to watch LIV over the vast majority of your events, because I enjoy it a lot more.

And stop with the victim BS, I’m making relevant points about differing audiences and where their preferences are. The financial aspect is just part of it, but not the only reason people won’t pay to watch tour golf. *It’s targeted at old people, that’s a fact,* so young people wont be as inclined to tune in.
		
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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Where are you getting those stats from?
		
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'The Lad' watches it and, unlike me, prefers the noisy commentary. But, like me, approves of allowance to wear shorts!


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## r0wly86 (Nov 9, 2022)

as a millennial myself, I do enjoy it being used as "young". Millennials are majority in their 30s, with careers, mortgages and children. Generally too busy to be watching golf on youtube.

If you want young, I think you are actually after Gen Z


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			as a millennial myself, I do enjoy it being used as "young". Millennials are majority in their 30s, with careers, mortgages and children. *Generally too busy to be watching golf on youtube.*

If you want young, I think you are actually after Gen Z
		
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That would challenge the suggestion by some as to why it's on Youtube then! Or even that it can capture 'the young'. To me, millennials are 18-25s (and that may be pushing it). I don't see very many of them being interested in Golf in the first place! And, imo, the reason LIV is only on YT and by its own team is purely because of commercial decisions by 'big' broadcasters - who won't be interested until they are confident there's value in it, that LIV will last, and that it is worth the cost of being associated with - an entirely normal commercial decision process.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 9, 2022)

Some factual statistical information to disprove the theory that 18-25's aren't interested in golf ;-)


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
The financial aspect is just part of it, but not the only reason people won’t pay to watch tour golf. It’s targeted at old people, that’s a fact, so young people wont be as inclined to tune in.
		
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If LIV is targeting young people to the detriment of older ones, then they'll need SA's billions forever! There's simply not sufficient 'yoof' interested in Golf! And different broadcast or tournament formats aren't going to change that! Unfortunately, Golf, like Snooker and Darts, appeals primarily to an older age-group and that's not going to change markedly with LIV!


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Some factual statistical information to disprove the theory that 18-25's aren't interested in golf ;-)


View attachment 45093

Click to expand...

You'll need to explain a lot more about what that chart, and the population sample, actually is before making any assertions that are valid! As it is, it could simply show the ages of elephants that are killed by poachers or ages of barrels of cognac (and who made it) that are used to produce a particular brand!
A set of aggregated data, Yes. But useful statistical info...absolutely not!


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You write a lot and say little.
		
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See Luke 4:23!


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## garyinderry (Nov 9, 2022)

Where is LIV going to get the money for 25 million purses when they are supposed to stand on their own two feet. 

The crowds and viewing figures do not add up when you want to give out that kind of money.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Where is LIV going to get the money for 25 million purses when they are supposed to stand on their own two feet.

The crowds and viewing figures do not add up when you want to give out that kind of money.
		
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It’s fine. Companies are lining up to pay billions in sponsorship apparently.


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## Ian_George (Nov 9, 2022)

Here's an article (Tennis related and from 2016) that raises some similar points wrt viewership of sports.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-second-oldest-in-professional-sports.606077/
But it may simply demonstrate the trend of sports watchers in USA to be moving from being TV based to digital medium based!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 9, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Some factual statistical information to disprove the theory that 18-25's aren't interested in golf ;-)


View attachment 45093

Click to expand...

What are you trying to prove? That older fans, the established golf market, people who know a bit about watching golf, are not really tuning into LIV. That's a worry. And, when LIV starts going to a subscription broadcaster, they'll either lose the younger audience, or if they like golf enough, they'll get a subscription and be mainly interested in the Majors and big PGA events (and DP World Tour ones). After all, what exactly does LIV really do better than the established tours?


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			After all, what exactly does LIV really do better than the established tours?
		
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Reward the players of their occasional tournaments.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 10, 2022)

garyinderry said:



*Where is LIV going to get the money for 25 million purses when they are supposed to stand on their own two feet.*

The crowds and viewing figures do not add up when you want to give out that kind of money.
		
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They're going to hire the commercial finance department at Man City, theyre the best in the business😉


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## r0wly86 (Nov 10, 2022)

I have read that PGA lawyers have requested the PIF boss to disclose the LIV business plan in the up coming trial. To date he has not provided any documents requested claiming sovereign immunity.

That won't play well to the judge I can tell you that much


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## PieMan (Nov 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			After all, what exactly does LIV really do better than the established tours?
		
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Gives away hundreds of free tickets to try and get punters through the gates........!! 

Oh and let's the players wear shorts!!


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I have read that PGA lawyers have requested the PIF boss to disclose the LIV business plan in the up coming trial. To date he has not provided any documents requested claiming sovereign immunity.

That won't play well to the judge I can tell you that much
		
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But it's not actually required until next year, ready for July pretrial, maybe even the actual trial in July 2024 or is ruled irrelevant and not required! All just a game of 'lawsuit chess'!
BTW. Its PGA Tour (PGAT)! Completely different body to PGA!


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## r0wly86 (Nov 10, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			But it's not actually required until next year, ready for July pretrial or maybe even the actual trial in July 2024!
BTW. Its PGA Tour (PGAT)! Completely different body to PGA!
		
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It is normal practice to request disclosure many months in advance, in order to be able to review it, ask for any clarifications, get it to an expert witness for their opinion if required, or to ask for further disclosure that may arise from the initial disclosre.

Plus the fact that he has relied on sovereign immunity doesn't sound like to me that he is going to disclose closer to the trial date. The judge will take into account that he would prefer ro rely on immunity than provide the documents, and infer that the documents would not have been helpful to their case, and civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities which would not work out well for them.

Not sure in the USA but in the UK the judge would take an extremely dim view of someone delaying disclosure to the last possible moment, and could potentially make costs order which coiuld cost LIV millions in legal fees, and even if the win, may not be able to recover legal costs from the otherside


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## IainP (Nov 10, 2022)

Group hugs anyone? 😉😁😅😉

https://golfdigestme.com/pat-perezs...grats-for-his-liv-success-might-surprise-you/


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## IainP (Nov 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			I have read that PGA lawyers have requested the PIF boss to disclose the LIV business plan in the up coming trial. To date he has not provided any documents requested claiming sovereign immunity.

That won't play well to the judge I can tell you that much
		
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Agree  don't think that should be allowed/tolerated.

In the spirit of 'even handedness ', this also seemed interesting
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/liv-golf-earns-legal-win-vs-pga-tour-regarding-communications


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			It is normal practice to request disclosure many months in advance, in order to be able to review it, ask for any clarifications, get it to an expert witness for their opinion if required, or to ask for further disclosure that may arise from the initial disclosre.

Plus the fact that he has relied on sovereign immunity doesn't sound like to me that he is going to disclose closer to the trial date. The judge will take into account that he would prefer ro rely on immunity than provide the documents, and infer that the documents would not have been helpful to their case, and civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities which would not work out well for them.

Not sure in the USA but in the UK the judge would take an extremely dim view of someone delaying disclosure to the last possible moment, and could potentially make costs order which coiuld cost LIV millions in legal fees, and even if the win, may not be able to recover legal costs from the otherside
		
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I know all that! But that's what the pre-trial manouverings are all about, with rulings on validity being made at the July 2023 Hearing. As  posted, simply 'Lawsuit Chess'! I don't think either side is overly worried about 'costs' - certainly not LIV with its SA backing!


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## r0wly86 (Nov 10, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I know all that! But that's what the pre-trial manouverings are all about, with rulings on validity being made at the July 2023 Hearing. As  posted, simply 'Lawsuit Chess'! I don't think either side is overly worried about 'costs' - certainly not LIV with its SA backing!
		
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disclosure is more than just lawsuit chess, it is one of the fundamental parts of litigation, you cannot have litigation without proper disclosure

they of course have deep pockets, but I would imagine legal costs qill quite easily reach seven figures, that is a lot to just throw away, especially as LIV are already $2bn in the hole


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

IainP said:



			Group hugs anyone? 😉😁😅😉

https://golfdigestme.com/pat-perezs...grats-for-his-liv-success-might-surprise-you/

Click to expand...

Demonstrates that while there may be antipathy about the 'opposing organisations', there's respect for the 'soldiers' on the ground! I don't believe any PGAT players actually 'hate' LIV ones nor vice-versa!


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			disclosure is more than just lawsuit chess, it is one of the fundamental parts of litigation, you cannot have litigation without proper disclosure
...
		
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Agreed, it's an essential part of the pre-trial process! But that process can *also* be - and almost certainly is being - manipulated as per my 'Lawsuit Chess' description!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 10, 2022)

Some interesting stories from the PGA Tour here from Pat Perez.

Heard stuff similar to this from my friend who coaches on the tour.

No doubt its a great product but maybe its actions in the past doesn't cover the hierarchy in glory personally or as an organisation. 

Perez is as entertaining as always, shoots from the hip and really doesn't give a **** about upsetting anyone

Also great to hear PGA players like Rahm and Thomas reached out to him after the Miami final... Good to hear.. 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5D...mvMak/8cfChPZTHThtRRbZ2imzB1LRt4CR6LNGwEAAA==


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## Imurg (Nov 10, 2022)

Reports that LIV are lining up ex TM boss Mark King to replace GN who will be moved "upstairs"....
I'd be watching my back if I was Greg.......


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Reports that LIV are lining up ex TM boss Mark King to replace GN who will be moved "upstairs"....
I'd be watching my back if I was Greg.......
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590743443894304768
Have said a number of times that Greg Norman was one of the biggest issues with LIV and most of the problems created are down to him 

This would be a good move for them


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## PieMan (Nov 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Reports that LIV are lining up ex TM boss Mark King to replace GN who will be moved "upstairs"....
I'd be watching my back if I was Greg.......
		
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Yeah especially if they invite him in to the Embassy............


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 10, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Reports that LIV are lining up ex TM boss Mark King to replace GN who will be moved "upstairs"....
I'd be watching my back if I was Greg.......
		
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I think this is a smart move by Liv..
Greg is far too polarising. 

PGA Tour would be well advised to move Jay M on as well for a fresh start on both sides to see if a truce can be found..


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Maybe the disgruntled players went to LIV? Separate out the players who play primarily for the love of golf, and the jealous ones who play primarily for the cash
		
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Well, half of the guys in the (first) PIP list are now at LIV - with 18.5M of it going to them!


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## Ian_George (Nov 10, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Yeah especially if they invite him in to the Embassy............
		
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Obviously, the announcement will simply be 'Mark King is going to LIV!'!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 11, 2022)

Nice to see the Level 42 lead singer doing well 😉


I’ve already got my coat on 👍


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## IainP (Nov 11, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Well, half of the guys in the (first) PIP list are now at LIV - with 18.5M of it going to them!





Click to expand...

It's a mystery how they decided who to play in the December exhibition match 🤔 
😉😁😉

https://www.sportskeeda.com/golf/ne...ustin-thomas-jordan-spieth-set-face-the-match

Always hard to be sure, but believe a significant chunk of the 18.5 hasn't been paid due to being unable to meet the payment criteria [insert reason of choice, dependent on views, here].

There is a school of thought that Tiger also hasn't fully received for the same reason (but different cause) - we'll probably never know.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 11, 2022)

Great to see a tour with top golfers including Australia on its schedule. 

A huge golfing nation that has been sidelined for far too many years.

The Punch GC Aussies will be pumped for playing at home against the DJ, BDC, Brooks etc etc
They need to do more of this to support their growing the game mantra. 
The Spanish guys have an event at Valdarama
Im sure Lahiri is hoping for an event in India and Niemann, Ortiz for one in South America. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590976344673767424


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## PieMan (Nov 11, 2022)

So poor old Greg couldn't sell LIV to one of the premier Aussie courses so he's gone for a venue where his company has designed one of the courses!!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 11, 2022)

PieMan said:



			So poor old Greg couldn't sell LIV to one of the premier Aussie courses so he's gone for a venue where his company has designed one of the courses!! 

Click to expand...

PGA Tour played on one of Greg's designs last week.

Don't see what relavence that has at all...
Important thing is they are taking their tour to Australia which is great..


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## IainP (Nov 11, 2022)

Just been advised that GOLFTV  (aka PGA Tour TV/streaming) is ending in December.
🤔🤔


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## cleveland52 (Nov 11, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just been advised that GOLFTV  (aka PGA Tour TV/streaming) is ending in December.
🤔🤔
		
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Big lost for the PGAT...


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## Ian_George (Nov 11, 2022)

IainP said:



			Just been advised that GOLFTV  (aka PGA Tour TV/streaming) is ending in December.
🤔🤔
		
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What's the relevance to LIV?


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## AussieKB (Nov 11, 2022)

From dead in the water to this......he has changed his tune.

World number one Rory McIlroy is urging that the PGA Tour and LIV Golf come to a compromise before golf’s biggest divide affects the future of the sport.
“I believe there is no more time to waste… PGA Tour and LIV will have to find a compromise and speak for the sake of our sport,” McIlroy told Italian publication Golf & Turismo, via National Club Golfer.


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			From dead in the water to this......he has changed his tune.

World number one Rory McIlroy is urging that the PGA Tour and LIV Golf come to a compromise before golf’s biggest divide affects the future of the sport.
“I believe there is no more time to waste… PGA Tour and LIV will have to find a compromise and speak for the sake of our sport,” McIlroy told Italian publication Golf & Turismo, via National Club Golfer.
		
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Old 'news'! This article was before the Trump Doval event! https://www.si.com/golf/news/rory-m...ur-feud-has-gotten-way-out-of-control-already


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## IainP (Nov 12, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			What's the relevance to LIV?
		
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For me personally it will mean in the near term me watching far fewer hours of PGAT & DPWT 🙁,  subject to what happens in 2023 could mean as a % of golf watched, LIV increases. Across the globe that might play out, times xx

If you were asking for speculation I'll have a go, in approx probability order -
PGAT has decided to focus more on core USA market
PGAT needs to boost income to pay for promises and thinks more tv deals are better option than streaming 
Operator was trying to renegotiate deal due to reduced fields, audience, and reduced 'Tiger, life on tour' content 
Operator is doing a deal with 'another tour' & compromise couldn't be reached.

Reality may come out in coming days 😁


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

Everything depends on players though. Can the Saudis poach more of them. The field they have is unarguably significantly weaker than the top PGAT events. Its a no contest, that a LIV win is worth a fraction of a pgat one. Maybe a quarter, if we were talking owgr type points weighting, or similar to a Kornferry. The medium will not matter if they cannot improve that. They need another 10 or so of the owgr top 40 as it was before it froze a couple of months ago. And not players on the way down, or Champions tour material. 
Thats the key. And in the last few months, they havent gained any. Unless there are more jumpers known behind the scenes, the pgats best move now is to sit things out. What LIV has of today is no threat. If it can maintain the status quo, LIV will fade away. I dont think its goal was to be a pre-champions tour exhibition type circus with razmataz. It wanted to be a grown up golf tour. As a business, that failure will prompt Saudi to pull the plug at some point.


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Everything depends on players though. Can the Saudis poach more of them. The field they have is unarguably significantly weaker than the top PGAT events. Its a no contest, that a LIV win is worth a fraction of a pgat one. Maybe a quarter, if we were talking owgr type points weighting, or similar to a Kornferry. The medium will not matter if they cannot improve that. They need another 10 or so of the owgr top 40 as it was before it froze a couple of months ago. And not players on the way down, or Champions tour material.
Thats the key. And in the last few months, they havent gained any. Unless there are more jumpers known behind the scenes, the pgats best move now is to sit things out. What LIV has of today is no threat. If it can maintain the status quo, LIV will fade away. I dont think its goal was to be a pre-champions tour exhibition type circus with razmataz. It wanted to be a grown up golf tour. *As a business, that failure will prompt Saudi to pull the plug at some point*.
		
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I don't believe it'll be within the next year though! An in that time, I believe LIV will have _matured_ quite a bit. Whether that simply turns out to be '_aged_', I'm not certain. If it does, then I can't see it going anywhere and it will fade as, to live, it needs publicity - doesn't really matter whether positive or negative. So I don't see it complying with OWGR requirements...the controversy generates publicity!


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## Harley-D (Nov 12, 2022)

Just a thought. Liv has completely passed me by. I don’t know what events have happened or who has played in them. The two tours I record and watch every week do not seem to be weakened and I don’t miss any of the “missing” players.


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

Yes, it needs publicity, but of a sporting nature now. Up to now, apart from an effectively insignificantly small group, LIV has only had publicity due to its contest with the pgat, controversy with undesirable Saudis, and a well polished but fake, rumour mill of recruits. That has run its course now. It needs proper, credible, sporting interest to succeed. And at the moment it is making no progress on that. If it werent backed by bottomless oil money sovereign funds, and with a sportswashing rather than either true sporting, or true business, motivation, it would already have folded.


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, it needs publicity, but of a sporting nature now. Up to now, apart from an effectively insignificantly small group, LIV has only had publicity due to its contest with the pgat, controversy with undesirable Saudis, and a well polished but fake, rumour mill of recruits. That has run its course now. It needs proper, credible, sporting interest to succeed. And at the moment it is making no progress on that. If it werent backed by bottomless oil money sovereign funds, and with a sportswashing rather than either true sporting, or true business, motivation, it would already have folded.
		
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To me, the main publicity will continue to be the vast amounts of money being paid to participants. The golf isn't anything sparkling and the presentation is definitely not to my, perhaps conservative, old-fashioned taste - though the cost is certainly a positive! I'd disagree with your 'insignificantly small group' comment but that's a matter of opinion. The PGAT obviously still see it as a threat! I don't believe the OWGR issue will be settled, as continuing that issue will provide publicity, something I believe is actively sought, irrespective of whether positive or negative - thus the number of LIV accounts (currently) on Twitter!

I still can't understand the logic of the Saudis funding it! Unlike Newcastle FC, there is seemingly no return on investment and I can't see how they can recover the huge funding cost! It may be 'small change' to them but they are not profligate investors! Their (and LIV's) long term strategy might become clearer next year!


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, it needs publicity, but of a sporting nature now. Up to now, apart from an effectively insignificantly small group, LIV has only had publicity due to its contest with the pgat, controversy with undesirable Saudis, and a well polished but fake, rumour mill of recruits. That has run its course now. It needs proper, credible, sporting interest to succeed. And at the moment it is making no progress on that. If it werent backed by bottomless oil money sovereign funds, and with a sportswashing rather than either true sporting, or true business, motivation, it would already have folded.
		
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But by and large that is precisely what drives the Premier League and the media-reporting of modern day football

Transfer sagas, mindless speculation, media and fan outrage (real and manufactured) > media reporting of actual football 
It’s close to being a soap opera / pantomime 

And it’s precisely that that will help the team element of LIV…’IF’ they can get a couple more big name players to go over and ‘IF’ they work out the team aspect properly…a transfer market and media speculation / gossip is what will drive reporting on it…as it goes with football


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



*But by and large that is precisely what drives the Premier League and the media-reporting of modern day football*

Transfer sagas, mindless speculation, media and fan outrage (real and manufactured) > media reporting of actual football
It’s close to being a soap opera / pantomime

And it’s precisely that that will help the team element of LIV…’IF’ they can get a couple more big name players to go over and ‘IF’ they work out the team aspect properly…a transfer market and media speculation / gossip is what will drive reporting on it…as it goes with football
		
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The gossip only fills in the gaps between games! It's the on-field performance against equally determined opposition that really drives the PL! I don't believe comparing a Golf Tour to a Football is a valid comparison - even simply the between game chatter!


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			But by and large that is precisely what drives the Premier League and the media-reporting of modern day football
		
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Thats not the case at all. There is certainly reporting and interest in those elements, but the majority is the real sport. It is driven by the games, performances, and progress in the leagues and cups. In any case, LIV is even worse than that. The interest can only be short term in the contest between the establishment and a usurper. Its a time limited thing, whatever the outcome.

And the fact that interest in the golf in itself is nil, certainly indicates LIV is going nowhere without a big number of key signings.

The audience, such that it is, for the golf itself, has more than a touch of the interest in a dancing dog - it isnt for how well it dances, rather, that it is dancing at all.


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Don’t underestimate the power (and column-inches..and the internet equivalent) of mindless speculation.. 

Why do you think this thread has such engagement?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 12, 2022)

Are people really saying that the speculation and off field activity in the premier league isn't a huge part of what holds people interest? That's the essence of football and what makes it so attractive, the hope, the anticipation.

Jeez Oh - as my non existent bi-polar Glasweigian other me would say.


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are people really saying that the speculation and off field activity in the premier league isn't a huge part of what holds people interest? That's the essence of football and what makes it so attractive, the hope, the anticipation.

Jeez Oh - as my non existent bi-polar Glasweigian other me would say.
		
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Are you really attempting to compare followers of golf - whether LIV, PGAT or any other - with football fans?
Jeez Oh - as your non existent bi-polar Glaswegian other you would say!


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are people really saying that the speculation and off field activity in the premier league isn't a huge part of what holds people interest? That's the essence of football and what makes it so attractive, the hope, the anticipation.
		
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Yes, people are really saying that. What holds people's interest is the sport, not the peripheral soap. LIV is soap alone, and that is the point - if true sport doesnt start soon, the soap alone isnt enough, even if we have bad guys, dodgy money, dark deeds, big talk personalities to boo or cheer, and the fabulously wealthy.  The only interest so far has been in LIV the contender to the PGAT, not the golf played on LIV. And that is unsustainable. As mentioned, witness this thread - it is about the LIV v PGAT contest, not golf on LIV. The PGAT is where the golf still is. And even the leaks, rumours, and dramatic unveilings seems to have come to a halt. When announcing an unremarkable and unknown to the general world, course, as the location for one Saudi event constitutes news, then even the peripheral circus has become rather dull.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Everything depends on players though. Can the Saudis poach more of them. The field they have is unarguably significantly weaker than the top PGAT events. Its a no contest, that a LIV win is worth a fraction of a pgat one. Maybe a quarter, if we were talking owgr type points weighting, or similar to a Kornferry. The medium will not matter if they cannot improve that. They need another 10 or so of the owgr top 40 as it was before it froze a couple of months ago. And not players on the way down, or Champions tour material. 
Thats the key. And in the last few months, they havent gained any. Unless there are more jumpers known behind the scenes, the pgats best move now is to sit things out. What LIV has of today is no threat. If it can maintain the status quo, LIV will fade away. I dont think its goal was to be a pre-champions tour exhibition type circus with razmataz. It wanted to be a grown up golf tour. As a business, that failure will prompt Saudi to pull the plug at some point.
		
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Agree the top PGAT events like LA Open, Memorial, Bay Hill etc have stronger fields.when all the big names play. 

The rest though (Majority) have weaker fields than Liv events.

One of Livs strengths is that their strongest field with ALL their best players play in every event.


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Agree the top PGAT events like LA Open, Memorial, Bay Hill etc have stronger fields.when all the big names play.

The rest though (Majority) have weaker fields than Liv events.

One of Livs strengths is that their strongest field with ALL their best players play in every event.
		
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Thats an academic point really. 100% of fields being weak, while they might be their strongest, is still 100% of tournaments have weak fields.
It cannot be levelled at the PGAT that all tournaments do not have all their top players. They still have more tournaments, where fields are uncontestably vastly superior to all LIV tournaments, some that are about the same, some that may be inferior. But offering a weaker tournament some weeks is not to the detriment of the strong weeks, and surely, still beats no tournament at all ?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 12, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Are you really attempting to compare followers of golf - whether LIV, PGAT or any other - with football fans?
Jeez Oh - as your non existent bi-polar Glaswegian other you would say!
		
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Lol. I don’t know who you are, or where you’re from, but if you want to discredit your own opinions, keep on posting this kind of nonsense.


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, people are really saying that. What holds people's interest is the sport, not the peripheral soap. LIV is soap alone, and that is the point - if true sport doesnt start soon, the soap alone isnt enough, even if we have bad guys, dodgy money, dark deeds, big talk personalities to boo or cheer, and the fabulously wealthy.  The only interest so far has been in LIV the contender to the PGAT, not the golf played on LIV. And that is unsustainable. As mentioned, witness this thread - it is about the LIV v PGAT contest, not golf on LIV. The PGAT is where the golf still is. And even the leaks, rumours, and dramatic unveilings seems to have come to a halt. When announcing an unremarkable and unknown to the general world, course, as the location for one Saudi event constitutes news, then even the peripheral circus has become rather dull.
		
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How do you account for this thread - and the topic of LIV on all social media / influencer channels (Rick Shiels etc) dwarfing discussion on here, and elsewhere on the internet, of ‘run-of-the-mill’ PGA Tour / DP World tour coverage?

Very few people actually care about pro golf outside of the majors

Irrespective of your or my view of LIV my view is that if you’re honest, you can’t account for the far greater interest / discussion of LIV and the soap-opera around transfers Vs coverage of run of the mill PGA Tour golf, because it has, objectively been far higher…hence my point 😁

And incidentally, I do have a strong disagreement that media reporting of actual tactics and different styles of play is reported upon more than the soap-opera of the Premier League


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			How do you account for this thread - and the topic of LIV on all social media / influencer channels (Rick Shiels etc) dwarfing discussion on here, and elsewhere on the internet, of ‘run-of-the-mill’ PGA Tour / DP World tour coverage?

*Very few people actually care about pro golf outside of the majors*

Irrespective of your or my view of LIV my view is that if you’re honest, you can’t account for the far greater interest / discussion of LIV and the soap-opera around transfers Vs coverage of run of the mill PGA Tour golf, because it has, objectively been far higher…hence my point 😁

And I do have a strong disagreement that media reporting of actual tactics and different styles of play is reported upon more than the soap-opera of the Premier League
		
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Highlighted the main statement 👏👍


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Highlighted the main statement 👏👍
		
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Which is my main point in this whole thread!

Golf for me is for playing…cricket is for watching 😁🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Which is my main point in this whole thread!

Golf for me is for playing…cricket is for watching 😁🤣
		
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Yep 

I’ll watch lots of sport , will play lots of golf but really only watch the majors and Ryder Cup


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			How do you account for this thread - and the topic of LIV on all social media / influencer channels (Rick Shiels etc) dwarfing discussion on here, and elsewhere on the internet, of ‘run-of-the-mill’ PGA Tour / DP World tour coverage?
		
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I am misunderstanding this question, or repeating myself - but I account for the thread, and media interest, in that it is not the golf the LIV offers that is driving the interest, it is in the PGAT versus LIV contest, as a clash of two bodies for control of the very top of professional golf tournaments.


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am misunderstanding this question, or repeating myself - but I account for the thread, and media interest, in that it is not the golf the LIV offers that is driving the interest, it is in the PGAT versus LIV contest, as a clash of two bodies for control of the very top of professional golf tournaments.
		
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That’s a fine point of view that I don’t generally disagree with at all - but likewise it is not the PGA Tour weekly events that drive interest..(because I believe it is very low) 

But it is the politics of PGAT vs LIV / gossip about players / soap-opera in how LIV evolves and who transfers over that drives interest….(like in football IMO) and that’s why IF the team element is worked out well - and evolves from what it is currently - it will prove to be a big driver of interest in LIV


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			That’s a fine point of view that I don’t generally disagree with at all - but likewise it is not the PGA Tour weekly events that drive interest..(because I believe it is very low)

But it is the politics of PGAT vs LIV / gossip about players / soap-opera in how LIV evolves and who transfers over that drives interest….(like in football IMO) and that’s why IF the team element is worked out well - and evolves from what it is currently - it will prove to be a big driver of interest in LIV
		
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I can't see the team element actually being attractive to general viewers - particularly the way the points in rounds are allocated! If they can somehow convert their events from individual based to team based, then maybe, but that's a big 'maybe'!


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

The team element is doomed. Golf is a singles sport. Only sports where teams are integral to their very play thrive as team sports. The only way single sports break into the foreign realm of team contest is when there is already a natural team association, and an an equivalent one to play against : amateur golf clubs, counties, nations, and of course, the Ryder cup. Intrinsically team sports can support the assembly of disparate or not naturally associated players, as it is the sum of the parts that creates that an overall performance. That is not the case with golf. There is no true team play. Simply adding the score of individuals. It cannot succeed, and the drive on it is the strongest sign that the LIV direction doesnt know what it is doing.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 12, 2022)

I honestly can't see the team element working at all in golf. Yes, it works at the Ryder Cup, but only really because it is a unique event that happens only once every 2 years, and there is a huge element of continental / national pride.

The popular team sports are ones that absolutely require good team work to succeed. Quality individuals may stand out from the crowd, but still need their team mates to do well. And fans will ultimately support the teams, rather than individuals.

That just isn't golf. Stick 4 golfers in a team, what does it mean? Each individual golfer doesn't need their team mates to do well as an individual. They could still win the event, and have their 3 team mates finish 46-48. And, the individual event will always take centre stage, just like Formula 1. At no point will LIV stop having an individual player tournament, and make it 100% a team event.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am misunderstanding this question, or repeating myself - but I account for the thread, and media interest, in that it is not the golf the LIV offers that is driving the interest, it is in the PGAT versus LIV contest, as a clash of two bodies for control of the very top of professional golf tournaments.
		
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The same also applies to the PGA Tour though doesn't it? Does anybody care about the golf, not really - infact it's all been fairly mundane stuff since The Open when there was a real nail biting finish to the event as Rory struggled to bring it home, and Cam Smith took advantage. 

There have been some enthralling battles on LIV, but I don't expect you to concede that - indeed, I very much doubt you watched them anyway.


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The team element is doomed. Golf is a singles sport. Only sports where teams are integral to their very play thrive as team sports. The only way single sports break into the foreign realm of team contest is when there is already a natural team association, and an an equivalent one to play against : amateur golf clubs, counties, nations, and of course, the Ryder cup. Intrinsically team sports can support the assembly of disparate or not naturally associated players, as it is the sum of the parts that creates that an overall performance. That is not the case with golf. There is no true team play. Simply adding the score of individuals. It cannot succeed, and is the drive on it is the strongest sign that the LIV direction doesnt know what it is doing.
		
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Are you trying to convince yourself with this?

Pro cycling is inherently a team-sport…yet cycling is, as much as golf, an individual pursuit…

Decades of years of the Ryder Cup, the Walker Cup, Solheim and Curtis Cup beg to differ from your analysis…and centuries of Foursomes golf - which is at the heart of golf history -a team of two……so to claim that golf as a team sport is ‘foreign’ is patently absurd and more

As and for the Ryder Cup being a ‘natural’ association….How do you account for Gb&I morphing into Europe? Things evolve…


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## Swango1980 (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The same also applies to the PGA Tour though doesn't it? Does anybody care about the golf, not really - infact it's all been fairly mundane stuff since The Open when there was a real nail biting finish to the event as Rory struggled to bring it home, and Cam Smith took advantage.

There have been some enthralling battles on LIV, but I don't expect you to concede that - indeed, I very much doubt you watched them anyway.
		
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Perhaps it has been mundane on PGA Tour, but that is probably why the winners don't get $4-5 million in prize money. I guess the prize money is within their means, it is sustainable.

Not the same for LIV. Golf fans get highly motivated for the 4 majors, Ryder Cup and maybe one or 2 other big events. I think it is very difficult for the majority of golf fans to get hyped up much more than that, unless you are an absolute golf nut. So, I doubt LIV will ever get passed the point of being mundane for most fans. Even if it had the best 48 golfers in the world, I suspect it would get boring seeing the same 48 golfers every LIV event. Different course, everything else the same. So, how is it ever going to generate enough money to give the players these huge payouts, so it is sustainable? What sponsors are going to throw money at a mundane tour, that haven't thrown money already at a tour that had Tiger Woods in his prime, and had all the best players in the world up until last year anyway?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Are you trying to convince yourself with this?

Pro cycling is inherently a team-sport…yet cycling is, as much as golf, an individual pursuit…

Decades of years of the Ryder Cup, the Walker Cup, Solheim and Curtis Cup beg to differ from your analysis…and centuries of Foursomes golf - which is at the heart of golf history -a team of two……so to claim that golf as a team sport is ‘foreign’ is patently absurd and more

As and for the Ryder Cup being a ‘natural’ association….How do you account for Gb&I morphing into Europe? Things evolve…
		
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How exciting would the Ryder Cup be if it was made up of teams of players from random nations, and played 14-20 times per year?


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Are you trying to convince yourself with this?

Pro cycling is inherently a team-sport…yet cycling is, as much as golf, an individual pursuit…
		
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I am not. Cycling is a good example that supports my point. Ask anyone who won the Tour de France, Giro, Milano-SanRemo, etc, and you will always be given an individual. Never a team. Fans support riders, not teams. And furthermore, thats even with cycling yes indeed having a significant element of team cooperation being part of the success of the individual. In golf that is just not even the case.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I am not. Cycling is a good example that supports my point. Ask anyone who won the Tour de France, Giro, Milano-SanRemo, etc, and you will always be given an individual. Never a team. Fans support riders, not teams. And furthermore, thats even with cycling yes indeed having a significant element of team cooperation being part of the success of the individual. In golf that is just not even the case.
		
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Team Sky had about 35 million in sponsorship revenue in 2017 didn't they? The team aspect is huge for the sport.


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Decades of years of the Ryder Cup, the Walker Cup, Solheim and Curtis Cup beg to differ from your analysis…and centuries of Foursomes golf - which is at the heart of golf history -a team of two……so to claim that golf as a team sport is ‘foreign’ is patently absurd and more

As and for the Ryder Cup being a ‘natural’ association….How do you account for Gb&I morphing into Europe? Things evolve…
		
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Decades of RC, WC, Solheim, CC, are exactly supporting my point, and why I mention them. The association, Europe, USA, GB, already existed, and so are contests of individuals representing those associations.
GB&I -> Europe morph also supports my point : 'Europe' well predates 1979. Hence why it works.
How long have the Crushems or Cleek Geeks been around ? And what is their shared identity and affinity ?


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Team Sky had about 35 million in sponsorship revenue in 2017 didn't they? The team aspect is huge for the sport.
		
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Your point being ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The same also applies to the PGA Tour though doesn't it? Does anybody care about the golf, not really
		
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Wrong! Tour Championship was enthralling!


Mel Smooth said:



			There have been some enthralling battles on LIV, but I don't expect you to concede that - indeed, I very much doubt you watched them anyway.
		
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Debateable! And the battles have actually often been on different holes, so rather difficult to follow! The advantage the PGAT (and every other format) has is that all groups finish on the 18th hole! LIV mitigates the 'problem' by having the leading players in the same group, but that doesn't allow for the 'great round' that becomes the target for the PGAT style last round! Basically, either can be 'more exciting' depending on 'luck'! Stenson v Johnson was the most interesting 'battle' for me, partly for the 'entertainment' value!


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yes!
		
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FTFY!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 12, 2022)

Ian_George said:



*Wrong! *Tour Championship was enthralling!
Debateable! And the battles have actually often been on different holes, so rather difficult to follow! The advantage the PGAT (and every other format) has is that all groups finish on the 18th hole! LIV mitigates the 'problem' by having the leading players in the same group, but that doesn't allow for the 'great round' that becomes the target for the PGAT style last round! Basically, either can be 'more exciting' depending on 'luck'! Stenson v Johnson was the most interesting 'battle' for me, partly for the 'entertainment' value!
		
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Classic Foxholer 😂


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Classic Foxholer 😂
		
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K?


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Decades of RC, WC, Solheim, CC, are exactly supporting my point, and why I mention them. The association, Europe, USA, GB, already existed, and so are contests of individuals representing those associations.
GB&I -> Europe morph also supports my point : 'Europe' well predates 1979. Hence why it works.
How long have the Crushems or Cleek Geeks been around ? And what is their shared identity and affinity ?
		
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Yes Europe as a continent clearly predates 1979 🤪 But in the Ryder cup golfing context it was new, and an evolution of many decades of GB&I vs USA in the Ryder Cup…

The IPL in cricket and plenty of franchise cricket / rugby teams in the modern era in the UK and Australia have worked…it all has to start from somewhere 🤷‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yes Europe as a continent clearly predates 1979 🤪 But in the Ryder cup golfing context it was new, and an evolution of many decades of GB&I vs USA in the Ryder Cup…

The IPL in cricket and plenty of franchise cricket / rugby teams in the modern era in the UK and Australia have worked…it all has to start from somewhere 🤷‍♂️
		
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Rugby and Cricket are team sports - you can’t use them as examples of why team
Golf would work


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yes Europe as a continent clearly predates 1979 🤪 But in the Ryder cup golfing context it was new, and an evolution of many decades of GB&I vs USA in the Ryder Cup…

The IPL in cricket and plenty of franchise cricket / rugby teams in the modern era in the UK and Australia have worked…it all has to start from somewhere 🤷‍♂️
		
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What singles sport has successfully created a team sport with support for, and contest between, the teams being a non trivial element ?


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## evemccc (Nov 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rugby and Cricket are team sports - you can’t use them as examples of why team
Golf would work
		
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It is ‘part’ of the reason though - along with a cash-rich Saudi govt who is bankrolling it and with a history of largesse in funding sports / sports-washing, with half of the winners of the PGA’s PIP (ie most marketable) signed-up, and with a generally dismal week-to-week output from the PGA in terms of golf fan interest

Everything will be clear in 18 - 24 months from now. It could have significant sponsors with events in each team’s backyard (if teams were nation / continent based) ie. Australia, Spain, Asia etc and it could have a transfer window which could pique interest —- or it could die a death within two years


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## Ian_George (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			What singles sport has successfully created a team sport with support for, and contest between, the teams being a non trivial element ?
		
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Tennis! Oh and (Ryder Cup) Golf!


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## Backsticks (Nov 12, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Tennis! Oh and (Ryder Cup) Golf!
		
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They didnt create the USA, GB&I, Europe, or nations. The point is that they existed. And that the teams representing them are an occasional contest representing a group to which the already belong.
My question was more rhetorical. No sport has done so, with artificial 'teams' with joke names.
IF the Saudis succeeded and had all the worlds top players, then team could succeed IF according to their country. If you dont have the clear best from each country though, it has no credibility. With made up nonsense teams, and without the players that can be credibly the best to represent that team, then the team element of LIV is truly a joke. That part is already dead. It just doesnt know it yet.


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## garyinderry (Nov 12, 2022)

evemccc said:



			It is ‘part’ of the reason though - along with a cash-rich Saudi govt who is bankrolling it and with a history of largesse in funding sports / sports-washing, with half of the winners of the PGA’s PIP (ie most marketable) signed-up, and with a generally dismal week-to-week output from the PGA in terms of golf fan interest

Everything will be clear in 18 - 24 months from now. It could have significant sponsors with events in each team’s backyard (if teams were nation / continent based) ie. Australia, Spain, Asia etc and it could have a transfer window which could pique interest —- or it could die a death within two years
		
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No ones watching as it is. If they ping about time zone to time zone it will alienate fans even more so.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 12, 2022)

Backsticks said:



*The team element is doomed. *Golf is a singles sport. Only sports where teams are integral to their very play thrive as team sports. The only way single sports break into the foreign realm of team contest is when there is already a natural team association, and an an equivalent one to play against : amateur golf clubs, counties, nations, and of course, the Ryder cup. Intrinsically team sports can support the assembly of disparate or not naturally associated players, as it is the sum of the parts that creates that an overall performance. That is not the case with golf. There is no true team play. Simply adding the score of individuals. It cannot succeed, and the drive on it is the strongest sign that the LIV direction doesnt know what it is doing.
		
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I'm 99% with you.....Based on the fact that LIV golf has capture these many fanatics in just a few short months is remarkable to me. I don't think that it's doomed. There're enough fans on this site alone to keep it going....LOL! They'll keep interest high while in hiatus by their usual drip, drip   rumors and housewives gossip and occasional poaching of good pgatour players but there's a reason the pgatour don't have many team events.... because no one watched them, and the ratings were terrible. There is a niche though, so let's see if those fans remain if they have to pay for the privilege.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 12, 2022)

Quote
"This exemption speaks to a bigger issue: Because of LIV, has the PGA Tour lost its moral compass? Rumors of under-the-table payments to top players have rumbled for months. Bubba Watson, who recently jumped to LIV, spoke out about unofficial appearance fees he received from Tour sponsors, and now comes the news of the Fitzpatrick exemption."

https://firepitcollective.com/matt-fitzpatricks-brother-fishy-q-school/


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## cleveland52 (Nov 12, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Quote
"This exemption speaks to a bigger issue: Because of LIV, has the PGA Tour lost its moral compass? Rumors of under-the-table payments to top players have rumbled for months. Bubba Watson, who recently jumped to LIV, spoke out about unofficial appearance fees he received from Tour sponsors, and now comes the news of the Fitzpatrick exemption."

https://firepitcollective.com/matt-fitzpatricks-brother-fishy-q-school/

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So, Bubba Watson admitting that he took illegal money under the table and a Korn Ferry exemption that the pgatour may or may not have the right to give...... mean that they've lost their moral compass? OK......LOL!


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## ExRabbit (Nov 13, 2022)

What I don't understand about this thread is that posters who think that LIV golf is not relevant, not worthy of watching, haven't watched it for more than a few minutes etc. etc. spend a good part of their spare time posting thousands of words telling everyone why LIV golf is so bad and not relevant.

Haters of LIV who post so often - please explain why you spend so much time bothering about it. 

And I am just asking in terms of the golf element, not the political stuff.


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## AussieKB (Nov 13, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			What I don't understand about this thread is that posters who think that LIV golf is not relevant, not worthy of watching, haven't watched it for more than a few minutes etc. etc. spend a good part of their spare time posting thousands of words telling everyone why LIV golf is so bad and not relevant.

Haters of LIV who post so often - please explain why you spend so much time bothering about it. 

And I am just asking in terms of the golf element, not the political stuff.
		
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Be prepared for lot of BS.....


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			What I don't understand about this thread is that posters who think that LIV golf is not relevant, not worthy of watching, haven't watched it for more than a few minutes etc. etc. spend a good part of their spare time posting thousands of words telling everyone why LIV golf is so bad and not relevant.

Haters of LIV who post so often - please explain why you spend so much time bothering about it. 

And I am just asking in terms of the golf element, not the political stuff.
		
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Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching. Because it has an impact on the biggest golf events, like Majors, in terms of players that will appear in those (with it almost impossible to reasonably rank LIV players who play a completely different format, with no qualification criteria).

LIV has never appealed to me. However, if it wasn't for this thread, I'd honestly never talk about it, as no one I know in the real world has talked about it for months and months now. No one at my golf club talks about it, that I have heard, and I'm not on any other forums related to it. 

However, the absolute garbage some LIV supporters spout on here does keep me coming back, I guess that is entertaining in a sadistic sense. It is probably the attitude of some LIV supporters in here that has driven me even further from LIV. As it seems to be the same attitude of LIV players and officials. That sense of entitlement stinks, and that is one of the big things I take away from LIV. You have these players who have made a big decision to join LIV, knowing there will be sacrifices in terms of golf, but at same time earning significantly more money. No issue with that, if that is what is important. But to then cry and demand that they want all other doors open to them is shameful, embarrassing and a kick in the teeth to their peers they left behind. The guys that get relatively much less, and who have to continue to play to a certain level to maintain their standing on their tour. 

So, as a golf fan, I have strong feelings about LIV, but none of them are positive.


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## Ian_George (Nov 13, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			So, Bubba Watson admitting that he took illegal money under the table and a Korn Ferry exemption that the pgatour may or may not have the right to give...... mean that they've lost their moral compass? OK......LOL!
		
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And that it was supposedly 'because of LIV'! Nothing to do with the threat of getting lawyers involved, or already rumoured 'workarounds' like those used in Tennis in their 'shamateurism' days (50+ years ago!)


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## Ian_George (Nov 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Be prepared for lot of BS.....
		
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Likely, pretty used to that!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching. Because it has an impact on the biggest golf events, like Majors, in terms of players that will appear in those (with it almost impossible to reasonably rank LIV players who play a completely different format, with no qualification criteria).

LIV has never appealed to me. However, if it wasn't for this thread, I'd honestly never talk about it, as no one I know in the real world has talked about it for months and months now. No one at my golf club talks about it, that I have heard, and I'm not on any other forums related to it.

However, the absolute garbage some LIV supporters spout on here does keep me coming back, I guess that is entertaining in a sadistic sense. It is probably the attitude of some LIV supporters in here that has driven me even further from LIV. As it seems to be the same attitude of LIV players and officials. That sense of entitlement stinks, and that is one of the big things I take away from LIV. You have these players who have made a big decision to join LIV, knowing there will be sacrifices in terms of golf, but at same time earning significantly more money. No issue with that, if that is what is important. But to then cry and demand that they want all other doors open to them is shameful, embarrassing and a kick in the teeth to their peers they left behind. The guys that get relatively much less, and who have to continue to play to a certain level to maintain their standing on their tour.

So, as a golf fan, I have strong feelings about LIV, but none of them are positive.
		
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You're views epitomise the defendants of the PGA Tour. You're bitter because some players have left for something that they obviousy feel is better, you are annoyed that they might not play in some of the majors somewhere down the line, but you don't think they should because the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
Essentially, you want everything to stay as it was - Golf, Radio 2 style. Pipe and slippers, marvellous.

That's fine, but some people like something different in addition to what already exists - LIV delivers that in plenty of aspects. There's room for both, one doesn't have to destroy the other - so why all the resentment towards LIV, it's not going to do you any good, and it won't change what has already happened.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You're views epitomise the defendants of the PGA Tour. You're bitter because some players have left for something that they obviousy feel is better, you are annoyed that they might not play in some of the majors somewhere down the line, but you don't think they should because the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
Essentially, you want everything to stay as it was - Golf, Radio 2 style. Pipe and slippers, marvellous.

That's fine, but some people like something different in addition to what already exists - LIV delivers that in plenty of aspects. There's room for both, one doesn't have to destroy the other - so why all the resentment towards LIV, it's not going to do you any good, and it won't change what has already happened.
		
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Mel, the problem is not that another tour option exists, the problem is the way it has been done, with arrogance and an open cheque book and an assumption that the rest of the world will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, it is totally financially dependent on Saudi cash, which is unsustainable in the long run, and very possibly viewers aren’t climbing aboard in droves as they don’t want to invest time in something that may not be around in a couple of years unless it can find a way to pay its way


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mel, the problem is not that another tour option exists, the problem is the way it has been done, with arrogance and an open cheque book and an assumption that the rest of the world will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, it is totally financially dependent on Saudi cash, which is unsustainable in the long run, and very possibly viewers aren’t climbing aboard in droves as they don’t want to invest time in something that may not be around in a couple of years unless it can find a way to pay its way
		
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Arrogance? Norman made it quite clear from day one he wanted to work withing the exisiting tours, the schedule backs that up.
I'm not going to try and debate that Norman is whiter than white, because he isn't, but the stand off from Monahan, and Pelley has been just as damaging to their own products than anything LIV have done.
Also, most of the vitriol has been fuelled by the media that existed to support those tours, did you read the Lynch article the other day. It was hateful, spiteful, bottom of the barrel journalism, even referencing LIV as a _'Cancer'_

Disgusting - and worryingly, people lap it up.


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## AussieKB (Nov 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mel, the problem is not that another tour option exists, the problem is the way it has been done, with arrogance and an open cheque book and an assumption that the rest of the world will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, it is totally financially dependent on Saudi cash, which is unsustainable in the long run, and very possibly viewers aren’t climbing aboard in droves as they don’t want to invest time in something that may not be around in a couple of years unless it can find a way to pay its way
		
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Is this like the PGA taking all the Euro players for years ? but hey they did not go for the money ?
pot meet kettle.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 13, 2022)

Quite a few LIV players competing in Egypt in the Asian Tour International series.

A certain Andy Ogletree currenty leading - great to see. Decent purse as well.

#butitsnotgrowingthegame


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## PieMan (Nov 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Quite a few LIV players competing in Egypt in the Asian Tour International series.

A certain Andy Ogletree currenty leading - great to see. Decent purse as well.

#butitsnotgrowingthegame
		
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The same Andy Ogletree who finished 67th wasn't it out of 68 on the party tour? So he's found his level then - fair play to him!!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 13, 2022)

Yep, the same one. 

He’s about to leapfrog tigger in the OWGR tho, so that makes him better than Mr Woods, right?


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## Backsticks (Nov 13, 2022)

OWGR is paused at the moment until they revise their algorithm.


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## Ian_George (Nov 13, 2022)

PieMan said:



			The same Andy Ogletree who finished 67th wasn't it out of 68 on the party tour? So he's found his level then - fair play to him!! 

Click to expand...

Maybe they were foolish to axe him then! Or maybe the security of having some cash behind him, albeit 'only' $120K allows him to play more freely! PGAT earnings since joining in 2020 of only $38K probably put a load of pressure on him to perform - different pressure to that to win the US Amateur even! Or even LIV!


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You're views epitomise the defendants of the PGA Tour. You're bitter because some players have left for something that they obviousy feel is better, you are annoyed that they might not play in some of the majors somewhere down the line, but you don't think they should because the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
Essentially, you want everything to stay as it was - Golf, Radio 2 style. Pipe and slippers, marvellous.

That's fine, but some people like something different in addition to what already exists - LIV delivers that in plenty of aspects. There's room for both, one doesn't have to destroy the other - so why all the resentment towards LIV, it's not going to do you any good, and it won't change what has already happened.
		
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Absolute garbage summary, as usual


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## cleveland52 (Nov 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching. Because it has an impact on the biggest golf events, like Majors, in terms of players that will appear in those (with it almost impossible to reasonably rank LIV players who play a completely different format, with no qualification criteria).

LIV has never appealed to me. However, if it wasn't for this thread, I'd honestly never talk about it, as no one I know in the real world has talked about it for months and months now. No one at my golf club talks about it, that I have heard, and I'm not on any other forums related to it.

However, the absolute garbage some LIV supporters spout on here does keep me coming back, I guess that is entertaining in a sadistic sense. It is probably the attitude of some LIV supporters in here that has driven me even further from LIV. As it seems to be the same attitude of LIV players and officials. That sense of entitlement stinks, and that is one of the big things I take away from LIV. You have these players who have made a big decision to join LIV, knowing there will be sacrifices in terms of golf, but at same time earning significantly more money. No issue with that, if that is what is important. But to then cry and demand that they want all other doors open to them is shameful, embarrassing and a kick in the teeth to their peers they left behind. The guys that get relatively much less, and who have to continue to play to a certain level to maintain their standing on their tour.

So, as a golf fan, I have strong feelings about LIV, but none of them are positive.[/QUOT
		
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## cleveland52 (Nov 13, 2022)

Agreed 100%.....I want to add that the fact that LIV golf and its players took the money but refuse to go away. Lawsuits to have their cake and eat it to...the total sense of entitlement is very annoying.


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## Backsticks (Nov 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching. Because it has an impact on the biggest golf events, like Majors, in terms of players that will appear in those (with it almost impossible to reasonably rank LIV players who play a completely different format, with no qualification criteria).

LIV has never appealed to me. However, if it wasn't for this thread, I'd honestly never talk about it, as no one I know in the real world has talked about it for months and months now. No one at my golf club talks about it, that I have heard, and I'm not on any other forums related to it.

However, the absolute garbage some LIV supporters spout on here does keep me coming back, I guess that is entertaining in a sadistic sense. It is probably the attitude of some LIV supporters in here that has driven me even further from LIV. As it seems to be the same attitude of LIV players and officials. That sense of entitlement stinks, and that is one of the big things I take away from LIV. You have these players who have made a big decision to join LIV, knowing there will be sacrifices in terms of golf, but at same time earning significantly more money. No issue with that, if that is what is important. But to then cry and demand that they want all other doors open to them is shameful, embarrassing and a kick in the teeth to their peers they left behind. The guys that get relatively much less, and who have to continue to play to a certain level to maintain their standing on their tour.

So, as a golf fan, I have strong feelings about LIV, but none of them are positive.
		
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Exrabbit, does that clarify it for you?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 13, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Is this like the PGA taking all the Euro players for years ? but hey they did not go for the money ?
pot meet kettle.
		
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Did the PGA *"take"* them by offering them huge cheques regardless of whether they won or not, or did the bigger or better players *earn* their right to play on the PGA Tour, either by dint of their European ranking, winning Majors or by going through PGA Tour Q school?



PhilTheFragger said:



			Mel, the problem is not that another tour option exists, the problem is the way it has been done, with arrogance and an open cheque book and an assumption that the rest of the world will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, it is totally financially dependent on Saudi cash, which is unsustainable in the long run, and very possibly viewers aren’t climbing aboard in droves as they don’t want to invest time in something that may not be around in a couple of years unless it can find a way to pay its way
		
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Add the deflection & spin like the top quote for another reason why the LIV Tour is not popular Phil.  And the attitude of the players who want to have their LIV cake and yet still take cake from the tour they turned their back on. 

Most of us would be happy to ignore it but the level of evangelism that its disciples bombard us with means it's very difficult to.  If you want to look for a reason why people hate it rather than ignore it, it's because it's being shoved down your throat like it's the second coming, when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.  I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 13, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Did the PGA *"take"* them by offering them huge cheques regardless of whether they won or not, or did the bigger or better players *earn* their right to play on the PGA Tour, either by dint of their European ranking, winning Majors or by going through PGA Tour Q school?



Add the deflection & spin like the top quote for another reason why the LIV Tour is not popular Phil.  And the attitude of the players who want to have their LIV cake and yet still take cake from the tour they turned their back on.

Most of us would be happy to ignore it but the level of evangelism that its disciples bombard us with means it's very difficult to.  If you want to look for a reason why people hate it rather than ignore it, it's because it's being shoved down your throat like it's the second coming, when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.  I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't.
		
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This ^^^^X1000.


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## IainP (Nov 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mel, the problem is not that another tour option exists, the problem is the way it has been done, with arrogance and an open cheque book and an assumption that the rest of the world will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, it is totally financially dependent on Saudi cash, which is unsustainable in the long run, and very possibly viewers aren’t climbing aboard in droves as they don’t want to invest time in something that may not be around in a couple of years unless it can find a way to pay its way
		
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IMO a well articulated post of your views, from which personally I can understand your viewpoint and share some sympathies with.
I do think @ExRabbit 's post also had some good points.
Sad to say, but as it approaches 9K posts and as we go into 2023, is there some merit in closing this thread and creating two new 'echo chamber' threads?
One can be 'anti LIV thread', the 2 primary LIV cheerleaders would not be permitted to post in it, and hopefully that would stop the constant triggering.
The other could be called something a bit like this one, and the repetitive, negative posts wouldn't be welcome there.
Who knows it may bring back those posters with less diversive views, who like chatting about skilled professionals hitting a ball until it goes into the hole, irrespective of where they play, onto a forum about golf.
Just a thought. 🤔


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 13, 2022)

IainP said:



			IMO a well articulated post of your views, from which personally I can understand your viewpoint and share some sympathies with.
I do think @ExRabbit 's post also had some good points.
Sad to say, but as it approaches 9K posts and as we go into 2023, is there some merit in closing this thread and creating two new 'echo chamber' threads?
One can be 'anti LIV thread', the 2 primary LIV cheerleaders would not be permitted to post in it, and hopefully that would stop the constant triggering.
The other could be called something a bit like this one, and the repetitive, negative posts wouldn't be welcome there.
Who knows it may bring back those posters with less diversive views, who like chatting about skilled professionals hitting a ball until it goes into the hole, irrespective of where they play, onto a forum about golf.
Just a thought. 🤔
		
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Simply not allowing the two primary LIV cheerleaders in this one would have the same effect; those who want to discuss it still could in one thread and I’m sure that the temperature would cool somewhat.  That the main cheerleader cannot see any wrong in LIV is the primary cause of any issues in this thread in my opinion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 13, 2022)

No plans to expand the LIV threads 
Best to keep it and the main protagonists all in one place, so we can keep an eye on it 👍


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## PieMan (Nov 13, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			No plans to expand the LIV threads
Best to keep it and the main protagonists all in one place, so we can keep an eye on it 👍
		
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Christ - TFFT!!!!


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## Beezerk (Nov 13, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Simply not allowing the two primary LIV cheerleaders in this one would have the same effect; those who want to discuss it still could in one thread and I’m sure that the temperature would cool somewhat.  That the main cheerleader cannot see any wrong in LIV is the primary cause of any issues in this thread in my opinion.
		
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You could argue posts like this are are part of the issue?
And we go around again 🤣😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 13, 2022)

Seconds out

round 1038957 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 13, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			You could argue posts like this are are part of the issue?
And we go around again 🤣😉
		
Click to expand...

You could do; or you could look at the hugely disproportionate number of posts by one poster in this thread and come to the conclusion that the propaganda (because it long since passed discussion) is the cause of the problem.


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## Beezerk (Nov 13, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You could do; or you could look at the hugely disproportionate number of posts by one poster in this thread and come to the conclusion that the propaganda (because it long since passed discussion) is the cause of the problem. 

Click to expand...

In fairness he does have a huge amount of people to try and respond to 🤔🤣


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## C7usk (Nov 13, 2022)

Personally, I wouldn't want to see the threads split and people not allowed to post in it... What happened to freedom of speech / opinion.. We all have the choice of reading or not reading this thread... It is only golf at the end of the day.. Whilst I don't agree with some others views and opinions I do oddly enjoy the soap opera generated around it..


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## Ian_George (Nov 13, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You're views epitomise the defendants of the PGA Tour. You're bitter because some players have left for something that they obviousy feel is better, you are annoyed that they might not play in some of the majors somewhere down the line, but you don't think they should because the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
Essentially, you want everything to stay as it was - Golf, Radio 2 style. Pipe and slippers, marvellous.

That's fine, but some people like something different in addition to what already exists - LIV delivers that in plenty of aspects. There's room for both, one doesn't have to destroy the other - so why all the resentment towards LIV, it's not going to do you any good, and it won't change what has already happened.
		
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To me, it's 1) the exclusive (invitation only) nature of the setup - that effectively reduces (via PGAT's reaction) quality of tournaments and 2) their apparent demands that the rest of the world change (OWGR process) for their setup cf complying with the established process!


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Has this not already been answered? Because LIV golf has an impact on golf outside of LIV. Because it removes players, and some top players, from events and tours that most golf fans have enjoyed watching.
.
		
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The PGA Tours actions of being challenged by another business didn't contribute to the above? 
Liv did nothing wrong, PGA Tour doesn't own golf, if they do then they will lose the anti trust suit. 
Please tell me if you think no one should be able to challenge employees of another business with an alternative offer of employment or if you think that shouldn't apply to pro Golfers only? 

PGAT thought they were untouchable and no one of any note would actually leave their tour. 
Their arrogance was in the end their weakness and a huge misjudgement. 
Their strategy of lifetime bans has clearly not been a deterrent, in fact I would say the current lack of OWGR points is a bigger deterrent right now and saving them from losing more big names. 

We are where we are now with this fractured golf world because of actions on both sides of the fence.


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## ExRabbit (Nov 13, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Exrabbit, does that clarify it for you?
		
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Well it clarifies that Swango1980 takes a sadistic pleasure in engaging in verbose exchanges with other posters of a different opinion to themself. Each to their own I suppose, but I still can't fathom why someone would be bothered to spend so much time on it, especially when you could just bang your head on the wall for a bit and then go down to the pub and have a pint or something instead.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The PGA Tours actions of being challenged by another business didn't contribute to the above?
Liv did nothing wrong, PGA Tour doesn't own golf, if they do then they will lose the anti trust suit.
Please tell me if you think no one should be able to challenge employees of another business with an alternative offer of employment or if you think that shouldn't apply to pro Golfers only?

PGAT thought they were untouchable and no one of any note would actually leave their tour.
Their arrogance was in the end their weakness and a huge misjudgement.
Their strategy of lifetime bans has clearly not been a deterrent, in fact I would say the current lack of OWGR points is a bigger deterrent right now and saving them from losing more big names.

We are where we are now with this fractured golf world because of actions on both sides of the fence.
		
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I've already said, I have no shares in the PGAT. I wouldn't give a hoot if the best golfers in the world played on PGA, DP World Tour or the Hooters Tour. But, it just so happens that the PGA Tour was were they could be found, and it has taken decades for it to build it, and improve it, to make it attractive to both the golfers and the fans. 

Of course, LIV are welcome to create another tour, and players are welcome to.join it. That is up to them. But, just don't expect the rest of the golfing world to bow down to their requests. Especially the PGAT who they clearly have the biggest relative impact on


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## Swango1980 (Nov 13, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Well it clarifies that Swango1980 takes a sadistic pleasure in engaging in verbose exchanges with other posters of a different opinion to themself. Each to their own I suppose, but I still can't fathom why someone would be bothered to spend so much time on it, especially when you could just bang your head on the wall for a bit and then go down to the pub and have a pint or something instead.
		
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You could be describing anyone on here who has posted continuously.

I gave my detailed response. If you fail to understand, why bother even asking? I don't understand people who.come on to forums, and express their confusion as to why others wish to express their opinions. I think you have spent a little to much time drinking and banging your head against a wall to be fair


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## ExRabbit (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You could be describing anyone on here who has posted continuously.

I gave my detailed response. If you fail to understand, why bother even asking? I don't understand people who.come on to forums, and express their confusion as to why others wish to express their opinions. I think you have spent a little to much time drinking and banging your head against a wall to be fair 

Click to expand...

I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Good night.


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response *but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.* Good night.
		
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Luke 4:23 applies - for 2 reasons!


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

birdyhunter said:



			No, utter rubbish... it's not like it at all, there is no comparison between the limited field LIV tour inviting players to play exhibition golf and Euro players having free market decision to move between tours at will.

The PGA did not take '*all' *the Euro players as your hyperbole states.  Yes some players went to see if they could increase earnings while giving them a bigger chance of winning 3 of the Majors, however unlike LIV, there was no golden hello and no guarantee of earnings, they did it at risk and generally faired a lot better than antipodean players, I seem to remember 

Click to expand...

Why have a go at antipodean players ? they seem to punch above their weight when you look at population in all sports.

Now we are finally getting some of them back playing here, which can ONLY GROW THE GAME


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			....
the golf they play can't be ranked (it can, and it is - just not by the OWGR)
....
		
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1. That's the fault of LIV, which doesn't comply with OWGR 'consistency' rules! But I believe LIV is actually happy with that situation, so won't change!
2. Checking the ranking system referenced on Twitter that includes LIV players (datagolf), many of the LIV players I've looked at are slipping down the rankings anyway!

And lack of access to OWGR points isn't the huge issue that many assume! It's the format that's the problem, whichever (current) method is used!

In last weeks ranking Cam Smith is actually ranked down 1 to 7th compared to OWGR of no change and 3rd; Louis Oosthuizen is down 4 to 49 cf OWGR down 2 to 45 Brooks Koepke Down 1 to 60th cf OWGR -1 to 42 BdC down 3 to 75 cf OWGR down 2 to 54
There ARE a few adversely affected (Dustin Johnson an obvious one and Sergio's numbers are quite different)

But, to me, access to OWGR won't help much for points allocation; the entire format has issues wrt ranking points allocation! I'm certain having qualifying and a cut would boost points, as would (though highly unlikely) increased fields! As is, the OWGR points allocated to a LIV event would be very low anyway (Korn Ferry level or perhaps less)! 

It's only frequent access to PGAT level points - so access to PGAT tournaments - that will provide the points required to boost rankings, whatever format is used!


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## ExRabbit (Nov 14, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Luke 4:23 applies - for 2 reasons!
		
Click to expand...

Relax - I was just asking a simple question in the first place.

Wtf is wrong with you guys? No wonder forum members don't want to enter conversations.

I guess there is a reason why most of my posts are in the Wordle thread and I still haven't got to 700 posts in 8 years! 

I'll take my leave of this thread henceforth.


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Simply not allowing the two primary LIV cheerleaders in this one would have the same effect; those who want to discuss it still could in one thread and I’m sure that the temperature would cool somewhat.  That the main cheerleader cannot see any wrong in LIV is the primary cause of any issues in this thread in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, fair enough 👍. Am certainly no evangelist but in the spirit of discussion & understanding, for this..
"..when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters. I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't.  "

Liking it definitely isn't compulsory & entirely your perogative, but if this is one definition of sport


Am drawn to the 'serious' word. Curious, for you what isn't serious?

And for balance, would you consider things like Hero World Challenge & CJ Cup serious sport?
Cheers.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			I asked a simple question to try to understand why some people like to spend so much of their spare time engaging in discussions which are pretty much endless. I understood your detailed response but it's always nice to be patronised at the end of a busy night of head-banging and drinking. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Good night.
		
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Ohh, the irony.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2022)

Handbags away please !


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			1. That's the fault of LIV, which doesn't comply with OWGR 'consistency' rules! But I believe LIV is actually happy with that situation, so won't change!
2. Checking the ranking system referenced on Twitter that includes LIV players (datagolf), many of the LIV players I've looked at are slipping down the rankings anyway!

And lack of access to OWGR points isn't the huge issue that many assume! It's the format that's the problem, whichever (current) method is used!

In last weeks ranking Cam Smith is actually ranked down 1 to 7th compared to OWGR of no change and 3rd; Louis Oosthuizen is down 4 to 49 cf OWGR down 2 to 45 Brooks Koepke Down 1 to 60th cf OWGR -1 to 42 BdC down 3 to 75 cf OWGR down 2 to 54
There ARE a few adversely affected (Dustin Johnson an obvious one and Sergio's numbers are quite different)

But, to me, access to OWGR won't help much for points allocation; the entire format has issues wrt ranking points allocation! I'm certain having qualifying and a cut would boost points, as would (though highly unlikely) increased fields! As is, the OWGR points allocated to a LIV event would be very low anyway (Korn Ferry level or perhaps less)!

It's only frequent access to PGAT level points - so access to PGAT tournaments - that will provide the points required to boost rankings, whatever format is used!
		
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I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly.  Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it _could _be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly.  Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it _could _be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though 

View attachment 45147

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Think they might have to delete this.....


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly.  Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it _could _be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though 

View attachment 45147

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Indeed, I smiled when I first saw that 'Our History' screen too! A classic demonstration of the difference between 'Continually' and 'Continuously'!

Points-wise, the field total value is made up or the (the sum of) points for direct entry players PLUS qualifying entrants, but the actual allocation of those points is only to those who 'make the cut'. So if, say, Rory plays an event, his 9.5072 current average gets added to the Field value, but only 'gets used' by those who make the cut. The qualifying list probably doesn't contribute a huge amount of points (other they wouldn't need to qualify!), but ensures access to play is 'open'. If a 'star' fails to make the cut, it's a 'bonus' to those that do. LIV has 'deficiencies' in both areas that would require downward adjustment of the 'points to be allocated' value, though I have no idea by how much.

FWIW,. It IS 'hard to do, at least initially'! And a chore to update every week - but the process can provide a return. Datagolf is only provides the top 100 list for free.

As for not immediately allocating points, I believe that's partly a 'standardising and compliance' exercise and, perhaps, some info gathering to determine other parameters. I'm certain much of the initial values already exist - as they'll be very similar - if not identical - to ones for the occasional Invitational and No Cut events in other Tours.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 14, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Yes Europe as a continent clearly predates 1979 🤪 But in the Ryder cup golfing context it was new, and an evolution of many decades of GB&I vs USA in the Ryder Cup…

The IPL in cricket and plenty of franchise cricket / rugby teams in the modern era in the UK and Australia have worked…it all has to start from somewhere 🤷‍♂️
		
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IPL is an interesting one, in the UK most people I know who watch it don't follow a team, but maybe a favourite player or players, Rugby franchises have historically been a nightmare, ripping up historic club support and rivalries trying to create something new. Imagine the Premiership adopting franchising and someone telling Exeter, Bath, Bristol, and Gloucester that they have to support the West Country Giants or something


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## r0wly86 (Nov 14, 2022)

C7usk said:



			Personally, I wouldn't want to see the threads split and people not allowed to post in it... What happened to freedom of speech / opinion.. We all have the choice of reading or not reading this thread... It is only golf at the end of the day.. Whilst I don't agree with some others views and opinions I do oddly enjoy the soap opera generated around it..
		
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not what freedom of speech means


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## C7usk (Nov 14, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			not what freedom of speech means
		
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Maybe not... But I think you know what I meant...


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Relax - I was just asking a simple question in the first place.

Wtf is wrong with you guys? No wonder forum members don't want to enter conversations.

I guess there is a reason why most of my posts are in the Wordle thread and I still haven't got to 700 posts in 8 years! 

I'll take my leave of this thread henceforth.
		
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Likewise 'Relax and don't be super-sensitive'. My comment wasn't meant as criticism; just pointing out the irony! There are certainly those vehemently pro or anti one side or whatever reason. I'm yet to be convinced of LIV's long term chance to exist and I dislike any new org that tries to change existing setups fundamentally! By all means 'rock the boat', but that can only go so far imo. so some compromise or 'phasing' may be required! OWGR points are an example wrt LIV, but I think it's also deliberately being used by LIV and isn't actually all that much of a problem anyway!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Why have a go at antipodean players ? they seem to punch above their weight when you look at population in all sports.

Now we are finally getting some of them back playing here, which can ONLY GROW THE GAME 

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Haven’t Australia had multiple golf events each year that all these Aussie golfers and indeed any top golfer can play ? Why didn’t those Aussie players play in those events ?

Why are they now playing in this event in Adelaide when they couldn’t be bothered to play in the Aus Open or Aus PGA ? 

I wonder if it’s because of the millions being given to them 🤔

And what happened to the events being at one of the top courses in Aus ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Why have a go at antipodean players ? they seem to punch above their weight when you look at population in all sports.

Now we are finally getting some of them back playing here, which can ONLY GROW THE GAME 

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Yeah! The time has come to say fair's fair!


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## Backsticks (Nov 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haven’t Australia had multiple golf events each year that all these Aussie golfers and indeed any top golfer can play ? Why didn’t those Aussie players play in those events ?

Why are they now playing in this event in Adelaide when they couldn’t be bothered to play in the Aus Open or Aus PGA ?

I wonder if it’s because of the millions being given to them 🤔

And what happened to the events being at one of the top courses in Aus ?
		
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Top Aussies stopped playing in Aus since the wraparound PGAT schedule came in.

And.
Sporting truism : EVERY country believes it punches above its weight in sports.


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haven’t Australia had multiple golf events each year that all these Aussie golfers and indeed any top golfer can play ? Why didn’t those Aussie players play in those events ?

Why are they now playing in this event in Adelaide when they couldn’t be bothered to play in the Aus Open or Aus PGA ?

I wonder if it’s because of the millions being given to them 🤔

And what happened to the events being at one of the top courses in Aus ?
		
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No it was because the PGAT started a wrap around season, so everyone stayed in States to earn points, they have now gone back to the old system of having an off season, maybe due to LIV, and if they asked for a release to play in their Home Open then there was a price to pay.....is that how you grow the game ?

(The Grange) The host site for the South Australian Open and multiple PGA Tour of Australasia events, the Club has also welcomed marquee amateur tournaments including the Australian Amateur and Interstate Team Series, as well as women’s amateur events. Most recently, the Club hosted the 2019 and 2016 Women’s Australian Open, boasting record crowds and receiving tremendous fan feedback.

And is where Greg won his first Pro tournament, the Victorian Government turned down the opportunity to host a LIV event, siding with the PGAT, due to Presidents Cup being played there I assume.

The SA Government have a 4 year deal which they are very happy with, I am trying to organize a trip there, only 1700 miles from where I live, not sure when we had such a great field here in OZ.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No it was because the PGAT started a wrap around season, so everyone stayed in States to earn points, they have now gone back to the old system of having an off season, maybe due to LIV, and if they asked for a release to play in their Home Open then there was a price to pay.....is that how you grow the game ?

(The Grange) The host site for the South Australian Open and multiple PGA Tour of Australasia events, the Club has also welcomed marquee amateur tournaments including the Australian Amateur and Interstate Team Series, as well as women’s amateur events. Most recently, the Club hosted the 2019 and 2016 Women’s Australian Open, boasting record crowds and receiving tremendous fan feedback.

And is where Greg won his first Pro tournament, the Victorian Government turned down the opportunity to host a LIV event, siding with the PGAT, due to Presidents Cup being played there I assume.

The SA Government have a 4 year deal which they are very happy with, I am trying to organize a trip there, only 1700 miles from where I live, not sure when we had such a great field here in OZ.
		
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They weren’t forced to stay and play in a “wrap around season” 

There was nothing stopping the Aussie players from grabbing a flight home and playing in their home events - 

They would have earned points playing in the Aus Events 

Let’s all be honest - they are only going there now because of money and they are contracted too - got nothing to do with “growing the game” - the players including Smith and Greg Norman don’t care about growing the game in Aus , if they did then they would have played there during the Aus Open and Aus PGA

Also looking at the LIV events for next year - they don’t seem to be global ?! If anything the European Tour is more global now 

In fact the ET has “two” events in Australia next season- maybe Cam Smith and Co should be playing those events - oops sorry not enough money of course 🤦‍♂️


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They weren’t forced to stay and play in a “wrap around season”

There was nothing stopping the Aussie players from grabbing a flight home and playing in their home events -

They would have earned points playing in the Aus Events

Let’s all be honest - they are only going there now because of money and they are contracted too - got nothing to do with “growing the game” - the players including Smith and Greg Norman don’t care about growing the game in Aus , if they did then they would have played there during the Aus Open and Aus PGA

Also looking at the LIV events for next year - they don’t seem to be global ?! If anything the European Tour is more global now

In fact the ET has “two” events in Australia next season- maybe Cam Smith and Co should be playing those events - oops sorry not enough money of course 🤦‍♂️
		
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Learn what the wrap around season is or was......it also killed a lot of other tours.

I thought the ET tour did not want LIV golfers ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Learn what the wrap around season is or was......it also killed a lot of other tours.

I thought the ET tour did not want LIV golfers ?
		
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I know what the wrap around season was 

But no Aussie golfer was “forced” to play in those events instead of events in Australia - they made the choice and they made the choice based on money.  And that’s the only reason they are going to Aus now - money 

Smith and Co can resign their LIV membership , become ET members and play on a true global tour and also play two events in Aus


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			No it was because the PGAT started a wrap around season, so everyone stayed in States to earn points, they have now gone back to the old system of having an off season, maybe due to LIV, and if they asked for a release to play in their Home Open then there was a price to pay.....is that how you grow the game ?

(The Grange) The host site for the South Australian Open and multiple PGA Tour of Australasia events, the Club has also welcomed marquee amateur tournaments including the Australian Amateur and Interstate Team Series, as well as women’s amateur events. Most recently, the Club hosted the 2019 and 2016 Women’s Australian Open, boasting record crowds and receiving tremendous fan feedback.

And is where Greg won his first Pro tournament, the Victorian Government turned down the opportunity to host a LIV event, siding with the PGAT, due to Presidents Cup being played there I assume.

The SA Government have a 4 year deal which they are very happy with, I am trying to organize a trip there, only 1700 miles from where I live, not sure when we had such a great field here in OZ.
		
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In all seriousness, what is so special about Australia? Not being disrespectful, I am sure it is special to Australians. But, it is just another country, population about 25 million. There are plenty of other countries, with much bigger populations, that may also love to have big golf events locally. Maybe they feel they equally deserve this, if not more so given their populations are so much bigger.

What really was stopping top Australian golfers from playing in Oz? I could understand if the events were played at same time as the Majors or the other biggest evens on the PGA or DP World Tour. However, if not, surely the top Australian golfers could have shown some loyalty to their nation, and played in Oz on whatever week they needed to? I'm not sure the PGAT prohibited them from doing so? Outside Australians, then I'm not sure what the incentive would be for other top golfers to play in Australia? Unless they were given a pay packet to do so, or they were generally interested in travelling the world, and going to another English speaking developed nation seemed like a decent option available to them.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

PGA Tour players could have played there if they wanted. Someone in Australia could have organised and funded a tournament at a time when PGA Tour players could have been tempted to go.

No one did. Why? Even the Aussie players didn’t seem that bothered.

LiV players will travel there why? Because they have to. 

I’m sure the event will be a raging success and open the floodgates to other tours rushing to hold events there, and golf in Australia will boom.


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know what the wrap around season was

But no Aussie golfer was “forced” to play in those events instead of events in Australia - they made the choice and they made the choice based on money.  And that’s the only reason they are going to Aus now - money

Smith and Co can resign their LIV membership , become ET members and play on a true global tour and also play two events in Aus
		
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Sounds great join the ET feeder tour and go back to the PGAT if they finish in the top ten


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			In all seriousness, what is so special about Australia? Not being disrespectful, I am sure it is special to Australians. But, it is just another country, population about 25 million. There are plenty of other countries, with much bigger populations, that may also love to have big golf events locally. Maybe they feel they equally deserve this, if not more so given their populations are so much bigger.

What really was stopping top Australian golfers from playing in Oz? I could understand if the events were played at same time as the Majors or the other biggest evens on the PGA or DP World Tour. However, if not, surely the top Australian golfers could have shown some loyalty to their nation, and played in Oz on whatever week they needed to? I'm not sure the PGAT prohibited them from doing so? Outside Australians, then I'm not sure what the incentive would be for other top golfers to play in Australia? Unless they were given a pay packet to do so, or they were generally interested in travelling the world, and going to another English speaking developed nation seemed like a decent option available to them.
		
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Maybe those non Aussies could have thought about growing the Game....and yes players have to ask the PGAT for a release even to play in your national OPEN, and there were consequences.


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## AussieKB (Nov 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			PGA Tour players could have played there if they wanted. Someone in Australia could have organised and funded a tournament at a time when PGA Tour players could have been tempted to go.

No one did. Why? Even the Aussie players didn’t seem that bothered.

LiV players will travel there why? Because they have to.

I’m sure the event will be a raging success and open the floodgates to other tours rushing to hold events there, and golf in Australia will boom.
		
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you are missing the point, the PGAT created the wrap around tour which the now have abandoned, due to LIV in my opinion, before that we had US and Euro players turning up, but if you cannot get World Players then it is very hard to get sponsors.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe those non Aussies could have thought about growing the Game....*and yes players have to ask the PGAT for a release even to play in your national OPEN, and there were consequences.*

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I know they had to ask, but what were the consequences? Surely the PGAT would have happily said yes to Cameron Smith if he asked to play in the Oz Open. What would have been the negative implications to him? Would they have told him he could only play with 10 clubs in the next 10 PGAT events or something? Would they fine him?

If I was a professional golfer, what motivation would I have to go to Australia to play golf? I'm a golfer, it is not up to me as an individual to "grow the game". It is up to the administrators of golf to do that. As far as I am concerned, I'd be thinking golf was in a pretty healthy position, given the prize money available to be. Clearly it is attracting big money from sponsors and broadcasters. So, I wouldn't be having this desperate urge to "grow the game", a phrase I never remember hearing until LIV came about. Suddenly it has become the most important thing in the world to some.

And, even if it were true, why does "growing the game" mean playing in Australia? Why do I care about that? What about France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Poland, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Brazil, Argentina, Morocco, New Zealand, etc. etc. That goes to my original comment, what is so special about Australia? I'd argue nothing, so I can only see Australian golfers having an interest, or those offered a lot of money. And, as a professional golfer, I probably don't want to be jet setting all over the world simply to "grow the game". I'd probably be more interested in minimising travel as much as I could, spending enough time at home and practicing, and being very selective in choosing events worldwide.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			you are missing the point, the PGAT created the wrap around tour which the now have abandoned, due to LIV in my opinion, before that we had US and Euro players turning up, but if you cannot get World Players then it is very hard to get sponsors.
		
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I’m not missing the point. If someone put on a decent event opposite a weaker PGA event the players would go if they were that bothered. They aren’t.

I’m sure Cam Smith and the other Aussies (probably all the LiV players as they will have to) will all say how great it is to be playing back on home soil/in Australia. But do they really care? Seems they were perfectly happy on their fishing boats in Florida.

It’s not even like they would have to travel cattle class. They would all be on private jets so travel isn’t even an excuse. 

No one puts big events on there because there just isn’t the interest.


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Top Aussies stopped playing in Aus since the wraparound PGAT schedule came in.

And.
Sporting truism : *EVERY country believes it punches above its weight in sports.*

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I don't disagree! But (folk from) countries are just selective about the sports they concentrate on!


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I know they had to ask, but what were the consequences? Surely the PGAT would have happily said yes to Cameron Smith if he asked to play in the Oz Open. What would have been the negative implications to him? Would they have told him he could only play with 10 clubs in the next 10 PGAT events or something? Would they fine him?

If I was a professional golfer, what motivation would I have to go to Australia to play golf? I'm a golfer, it is not up to me as an individual to "grow the game". It is up to the administrators of golf to do that. As far as I am concerned, I'd be thinking golf was in a pretty healthy position, given the prize money available to be. Clearly it is attracting big money from sponsors and broadcasters. So, I wouldn't be having this desperate urge to "grow the game", a phrase I never remember hearing until LIV came about. Suddenly it has become the most important thing in the world to some.

And, even if it were true, why does "growing the game" mean playing in Australia? Why do I care about that? What about France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Poland, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Brazil, Argentina, Morocco, New Zealand, etc. etc. That goes to my original comment, what is so special about Australia? I'd argue nothing, so I can only see Australian golfers having an interest, or those offered a lot of money. And, as a professional golfer, I probably don't want to be jet setting all over the world simply to "grow the game". *I'd probably be more interested in minimising travel as much as I could, spending enough time at home and practicing, and being very selective in choosing events worldwide*.
		
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14 tournament league next year (leaving you 38 free weeks) - huge prize funds and Ill throw in a 20m signing bonus. Interested?


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			you are missing the point, the PGAT created the wrap around tour which the now have abandoned, *due to LIV in my opinion*, before that we had US and Euro players turning up, but if you cannot get World Players then it is very hard to get sponsors.
		
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Please explain your reasoning - apart from timing! Surely, you are not considering that a 'victory' for LIV! Do you consider the change from wrap around to pure calendar schedule a good thing? It certainly means Golf tournaments can be arranged in Southern Hemisphere in more reliable weather, though Summer might not be the optimum time for some parts of Oz! Remember, the PGAT is US-centric, as that's where by far the greatest audience (primary driver) and source of top level players is!


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			...

Most of us would be happy to ignore it but the level of evangelism that its disciples bombard us with means it's very difficult to.  If you want to look for a reason why people hate it rather than ignore it, it's because it's being shoved down your throat like it's the second coming, when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.  I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't.
		
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That was certainly my attitude to the last 2 or 3 individual events! The Team Final event was interesting as 'something new', even though the Team part of other events was, for me, just unwanted noise and a turnoff.
I haven't seen a reference to Harlem Globetrotters for several decades! I used to enjoy their antics in their shows, but agree - not proper matches! I saw on Wiki that, under their n-th ownership regime, they recently applied to become a proper team!


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## Beezerk (Nov 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you want to look for a reason why people hate it rather than ignore it, it's because it's being shoved down your throat like it's the second coming
		
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I’m struggling with this as I genuinely struggle to find any real news about LIV.
The BBC don’t really report on it nor do Sky unless it’s some negatively biased report. Are you talking about Twitter? I don’t go on Twitter so maybe that’s why I don’t see it.
Are you talking about golf websites or magazines? Well it is a golf related topic so I’d expect a lot of discussion about it in those media types as it’s probably the biggest golf story since Tiger won the Masters.
It’s easy to avoid LIV news if you really wanted to 😉


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			14 tournament league next year (leaving you 38 free weeks) - huge prize funds and Ill throw in a 20m signing bonus. Interested?
		
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I think you forgot to highlight the bit in the line above, where I said "or offered a lot of money"


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I’m struggling with this as I genuinely struggle to find any real news about LIV.
The BBC don’t really report on it nor do Sky unless it’s some negatively biased report. Are you talking about Twitter? I don’t go on Twitter so maybe that’s why I don’t see it.
Are you talking about golf websites or magazines? Well it is a golf related topic so I’d expect a lot of discussion about it in those media types as it’s probably the biggest golf story since Tiger won the Masters.
It’s easy to avoid LIV news if you really wanted to 😉
		
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FWIW,  I mulled this and concluded it referred to this thread/forum.
Could be wrong though.


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## Beezerk (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			FWIW,  I mulled this and concluded it referred to this thread/forum.
Could be wrong though.
		
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Well yes, but it is a golf discussion forum isn’t it? Maybe I’m being stupid but I’d expect lots of LIV stuff (either pro or anti) on this thread 👀


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think you forgot to highlight the bit in the line above, where I said "or offered a lot of money"
		
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Nope, just provided you with the solution to wanting to play less and save all that travelling around the planet is all. 

When money is the biggest selling point of LIV, you cant just remove it as an option in your argument. It is the only argument really


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Nope, just provided you with the solution to wanting to play less and save all that travelling around the planet is all.

When money is the biggest selling point of LIV, you cant just remove it as an option in your argument. It is the only argument really 

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I know all this (you have read my posts on this forum though)?

The post you responded to was speaking from the point of view as a player pre LIV, as this seems to be the time professional golfers were not going and playing in Australia according to AussieKB. I was trying to ask to him what motivations a professional golfer had to play in Australia, apart from being Australian themselves, or offered a lot of money to do so.

Of course, now they are banned from playing on PGAT, I am sure there are now other motivations to play in Australia. Yet, none of those reasons from the golfers point of view will be about growing the game.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I know all this (you have read my posts on this forum though)?

The post you responded to was speaking from the point of view as a player pre LIV, as this seems to be the time professional golfers were not going and playing in Australia according to AussieKB. I was trying to ask to him what motivations a professional golfer had to play in Australia, apart from being Australian themselves, or offered a lot of money to do so.

Of course, now they are banned from playing on PGAT, I am sure there are now other motivations to play in Australia. Yet, none of those reasons from the golfers point of view will be about growing the game.
		
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I read a lot but not all - hard to keep up with this thread after 2 days being away... 

Its a moot argument though and you're just arguing with yourself - why bother going to all the effort when the answer is money and you know it?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I read a lot but not all - hard to keep up with this thread after 2 days being away...

Its a moot argument though and you're just arguing with yourself - why bother going to all the effort when the answer is money and you know it?
		
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I do know it, which is exactly why I included it within my answer. I'm not sure what you are saying that is different!? To repeat, in the post you replied to, I said:

"That goes to my original comment, what is so special about Australia? I'd argue nothing, so I can only see Australian golfers having an interest, or those offered a lot of money."


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			...
Yet, none of those reasons from the golfers point of view will be about growing the game.
		
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I certainly agree with this comment!
To me, 'Growing the Game' isn't about having a tournament in a county, though it may be associated with one! It's a more 'grass roots' concept of establishing and promoting the organisational structure that will actually get folk involved for the long term - and actually getting folk, preferably young ones, involved by the likes of clinics etc! The 'growing the game' concept spouted by most proponents is just an excuse to either exist in the first place or to be doing what they really want! Having a few kids play with some balls and clubs for 30mins or so is NOT 'growing the game'!


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I do know it, which is exactly why I included it within my answer. I'm not sure what you are saying that is different!? To repeat, in the post you replied to, I said:

"That goes to my original comment, what is so special about Australia? I'd argue nothing, so I can only see Australian golfers having an interest, or those offered a lot of money."
		
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Yeah, so why are you trying to find another answer that doesn't exist by asking a question you already know the answer to?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I certainly agree with this comment!
To me, 'Growing he Game' isn't about having a tournament in a county, though it may be associated with one! It's a more 'grass roots' concept of establishing and promoting the organisational structure that will actually get folk involved for the long term - and actually getting folk, preferably young ones, involved by the likes of clinics etc! The 'growing the game' concept spouted by most proponents is just an excuse to either exist in the first place or to be doing what they really want! Having a few kids play with some balls and clubs for 30mins or so is NOT 'growing the game'!
		
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Id argue if you bring a pro golf event to a country that doesn't get one often - you invest in it, make it a big deal (big name players help) and news-worthy - and you bring it annually for a good 5/10 years - you will increase interest in golf there over time.

Rome wasn't built in a day!


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## r0wly86 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Id argue if you bring a pro golf event to a country that doesn't get one often - you invest in it, make it a big deal (big name players help) and news-worthy - and you bring it annually for a good 5/10 years - you will increase interest in golf there over time.

Rome wasn't built in a day!
		
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Unless you are promoting it to get the young people in, they won't.

If instead they sent the top pros into schools or junior events at clubs, that would more likely generate more interest in the young


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Yeah, so why are you trying to find another answer that doesn't exist by asking a question you already know the answer to? 

Click to expand...

I didn't think there was an answer, but the posts of AussieKB suggests he might have an alternative answer. I wanted to give him a chance to highlight what the us are missing.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Id argue if you bring a pro golf event to a country that doesn't get one often - you invest in it, make it a big deal (big name players help) and news-worthy - and you bring it annually for a good 5/10 years - you will increase interest in golf there over time.

Rome wasn't built in a day!
		
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If growing the game was simply based on increasing numbers worldwide, then you are right. They'd look to focus in growing the game in China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, Nigeria, etc. as the most populous countries. There will be plenty of reasons this doesn't happen so easily. Political, cultural and economical reasons. If it was a simple strategic decision, I'm sure the PGAT would have looked to having many global events, if it is likely to grow the game and drive in much much more money to them presently, and in the future.

The US, being the 3rd most populous country in the world, has clearly done a lot to grow its own market in golf, and as a result players and fans from all over the world have been attracted to the US Golf over the years. China and India, massively more populous than the US, could technically invest a lot in golf, and really grow golf in their own countries. I guess they choose not to, because if they did I can imagine it would start to slowly attract more and more golfers from around the world, until they established the dominant tour.

LIV will market itself as growing the game globally. But, I'm sure it has little interest in that really. It simply has an interest in making as much money as possible (like nearly all businesses in fairness), and hoping it becomes the most dominant tour in the world and is sustainable. If that meant it ultimately had to play 95% of its events in the US, and that it sold the rights to big broadcasters so we all had to pay for the privilege, that is what it would do. It wouldn't make any special considerations that their events had to take place in other countries like Oz, it would only do so if the money was right. And, the money will only be right if the country itself has grown golf within its own borders, to make a professional event popular with investors and fans.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			I think datagolf has been interesting in that they showed it wasn't that hard to do. I have a feeling it operates a bit more like WHS so more reflective of recent form (is a tool for gamblers) whereas OWGS was maybe designed to generally move more slowly.  Yes there are "winners & losers" depending on which you look at - no surprises there for me.

I do agree that the current LIV offering would not gain the points on par with a current top tier PGAT event. I'm not really following how having qualifying and a cut would explicitly increase points though - based on what? Surely it is the field strength that affects that.
It may be the tour championship and upcoming hero challenge give a better indication of what it _could _be if ever included.

I've said before, in some ways it may have been better for them to have awarded points early, just not very many - then the focus would move away from OWGR debate and more onto those players who have chosen to not play that often this year (which isn't all of them)

This did make me smile though 

View attachment 45147

Click to expand...


To be fair to OWGR they would never have expected any new tour to rock up and take 14 of their top 50 players (Start of 2022) within 6 months.
Time will tell if they are going to lose more but with every one that does move across, the more inaccurate they become as the world ranking system.
As soon as people start to say its not relevant because too many top players are not ranked it becomes obsolete, where that tipping point is will be a personal opinion, some may say we are there already with 28% of top 50 players (Start Of 2022) unable to earn points.

They are set up for new start up small tours that have no grounds or need based on the players they start with to get OWGR quickly.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			To be fair to OWGR they would never have expected any new tour to rock up and take 14 of their top 50 players (Start of 2022) within 6 months.
Time will tell if they are going to lose more but with every one that does move across, the more inaccurate they become as the world ranking system.
As soon as people start to say its not relevant because too many top players are not ranked it becomes obsolete, where that tipping point is will be a personal opinion, some may say we are there already with 28% of top 50 players (Start Of 2022) unable to earn points.

They are set up for new start up small tours that have no grounds or need based on the players they start with to get OWGR quickly.
		
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I'd imagine any World Ranking system could be considered fundamentally flawed, even if it included LIV golfers. Simply because of the fact is plays under a complete set of different goalposts, and being able to continually compare players from LIV and other Tours becomes almost impossible. Mainly as there is very limited crossover between players across the different tours.

I suspect the ranking system would remain in place for the qualification of the lions share of participants in major events. As others have mentioned, perhaps the Majors would then say the Top 5 or so in LIV qualify as well. I think that would be easier for them, rather than trying to figure out how many ranking points they should be given. If they tried to find a way using ranking points, then either there will be complaints that LIV players are getting too many ranking points, or vice versa (or both, where non LIV players say the LIV players are getting too many points, whilst LIV players are simultaneously saying they are not getting enough).

The issue for the LIV players now was that, when they decided to join, they should have known that nothing was even close to being agreed (discussions might not even have properly started). So, they knew they were not going to get ranking points or Major exemptions, LIV knew about some of the basic limitations in their format that were a barrier, yet now they all seem angered, frustrated and surprised. And, by the sounds of what some say in here, it is all the fault of the PGAT.


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			To be fair to OWGR they would never have expected any new tour to rock up and take 14 of their top 50 players (Start of 2022) within 6 months.
Time will tell if they are going to lose more but with every one that does move across, the more inaccurate they become as the world ranking system.
As soon as people start to say its not relevant because too many top players are not ranked it becomes obsolete, where that tipping point is will be a personal opinion, some may say we are there already with 28% of top 50 players (Start Of 2022) unable to earn points.

They are set up for new start up small tours that have no grounds or need based on the players they start with to get OWGR quickly.
		
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Fair point - just to pick up on one thing though - unable isn't the correct word IMO - more that most of the top guys haven't appeared to wish to in smaller events. Pat did dabble and I believe Westy may be showing up in Indonesia. May be different next year.


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Id argue if you bring a pro golf event to a country that doesn't get one often - you invest in it, make it a big deal (big name players help) and news-worthy - and you bring it annually for a good 5/10 years - you will increase interest in golf there over time.

Rome wasn't built in a day!
		
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That would likely make progress - but inspiration of 'the young', particularly through playing, is what really 'grows the game' - which is far more than simply 'increasing interest'! I don't believe GN's version of 'growing the game' is anything more than tokenism!


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah, fair enough 👍. Am certainly no evangelist but in the spirit of discussion & understanding, for this..
"..when the truth is it's nearer to golf's equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters. I've nothing against the Harlem Globetrotters, it's great light-hearted entertainment but serious sport it ain't.  "

Liking it definitely isn't compulsory & entirely your perogative, but if this is one definition of sport
View attachment 45145

Am drawn to the 'serious' word. Curious, for you what isn't serious?

And for balance, would you consider things like Hero World Challenge & CJ Cup serious sport?
Cheers.
		
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I'm not suggesting you're an evangelist Iain, no issue at all with your contributions.  

I'd consider LIV more sports entertainment than serious golf.

Sports entertainment is a type of spectacle which presents an ostensibly competitive event using a high level of theatrical flourish & extravagant presentation with the purpose of entertaining an audience.  Unlike typical sports and games which are conducted for competition, sportsmanship, physical exercise or personal recreation, the primary product of sports entertainment is performance for an audience's benefit.  Commonly, but not in all cases, the outcomes are predetermined; as this is an open secret, it is not considered to be match fixing.

The LIV field is hand-picked, there is no open qualification route, there's definitely theatrical flourish and it's clearly designed to pull in a crowd; the contrived team event being just one example. And there's the safety net of being paid regardless of the result.  So I'd consider LIV to be nearer the WWE (without the predetermined results) or the Harlem Globetrotters than a serious golf tour (and I'm not suggesting the last line of the definition applies, I merely included it for completeness).  

Serious golf is playing for your livelihood, knowing that you need to perform to earn money; not that you can just turn up and get paid.  It's competition that's open to a greater or lesser degree, rather than a closed shop, which results in finding the best of the best.  The Opens are precisely that, open to those with the talent, as are the DP & PGA Tours; if you are good enough you can earn your way there and make a living, if you aren't then you're out.  

The Hero World Challenge I would consider a charity exhibition event; it's not got clearly defined entry conditions, it's a benefit for the Tiger Woods Foundation and it's not an official tour event so no Fedex points.  It's good golf to watch but not a serious golf tournament.

The CJ Cup is different for me.  Clearly defined entry conditions; although it's a limited field of 78, the entrants are the top 60 available from the previous years FedEx standings, winners of the KPGA & Genesis Championship on the Korean Tour, top 3 available players from the Korean Tour OoM, top available player from the Asian Tour OoM, top available Korean, player from the Asian Tour OoM, top next 3 available Korean players from the Official World Golf Ranking and 8 sponsors exemptions; 5 PGA Tour members, the winner of a Korean amateur qualifier and two unrestricted.  So a restricted field, but  a quality one, and one that you can earn your way into, like the US Masters.  I'm not suggesting that it is anything like the quality of the Masters, but the fact that there is a clearly defined entry route into it, and that players can earn their place, places it in the serious golf category for me; not the top end, but certainly not exhibition golf or sports entertainment. 

I don't have a problem with sports entertainment.  It exists to serve a market, but that market isn't me.  I don't have an issue with players choosing to go; I fully understand the reason why players like Richard Bland go, and I admire Harold Varner III's honestly in stating why he's gone.  But there are also certain aspects of the behaviour, such as the lawsuits, the have our cake and eat it attitude of some, the whining about the points and the belief that they are the saviours of golf and that the world should be grateful to them that annoy me intensely and as such I cannot see me ever warming to them however it develops, if indeed it does.


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd imagine any World Ranking system could be considered fundamentally flawed, even if it included LIV golfers. *Simply because of the fact is plays under a complete set of different goalposts, and being able to continually compare players from LIV and other Tours becomes almost impossible. Mainly as there is very limited crossover between players across the different tours.*

I suspect the ranking system would remain in place for the qualification of the lions share of participants in major events. As others have mentioned, perhaps the Majors would then say the Top 5 or so in LIV qualify as well. I think that would be easier for them, rather than trying to figure out how many ranking points they should be given. If they tried to find a way using ranking points, then either there will be complaints that LIV players are getting too many ranking points, or vice versa (or both, where non LIV players say the LIV players are getting too many points, whilst LIV players are simultaneously saying they are not getting enough).

The issue for the LIV players now was that, when they decided to join, they should have known that nothing was even close to being agreed (discussions might not even have properly started). So, they knew they were not going to get ranking points or Major exemptions, LIV knew about some of the basic limitations in their format that were a barrier, yet now they all seem angered, frustrated and surprised. And, by the sounds of what some say in here, it is all the fault of the PGAT.
		
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Focusing on the highlighted - there are currently over 20 tours being ranked, how much crossover do you think there is? Surely that is the point of the system to allow the comparison of players playing in different places isn't it? e.g. Ryan Fox to Kazuki Higa to Scott Vincent to Marty Dou Zecheng. Afraid I am really not following your view here.

Also not following the "complete set of different goalposts".  Isn't stroke play just stroke play?  Hit the ball until it goes in the hole...

Here is what the OWGR say .....

*STROKES GAINED WORLD RATING*

A player’s Strokes Gained World Rating is based on a player’s actual scores in stroke-play events and adjusted for the relative difficulty of each round played over a rolling two-year period.

To place more emphasis on recent performances, a similar weighting system as that applied to World Ranking Points is utilised (i.e., a 13-week period of full weight, thereafter, reduced in equal decrements).

Scores from completed 18-hole round stroke-play events are eligible for inclusion in the Strokes Gained World Rating.


*TOTAL FIELD RATING*

Every player in a tournament field contributes performance points as determined by the player's individual Strokes Gained World Rating. The sum of these Performance Points determines the Total Field Rating.

---
I agree it may be easier to ignore the points and do something different, as I think backsticks has also suggested


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Focusing on the highlighted - there are currently over 20 tours being ranked, how much crossover do you think there is? Surely that is the point of the system to allow the comparison of players playing in different places isn't it? e.g. Ryan Fox to Kazuki Higa to Scott Vincent to Marty Dou Zecheng. Afraid I am really not following your view here.

Also not following the "complete set of different goalposts".  Isn't stroke play just stroke play?  Hit the ball until it goes in the hole...

Here is what the OWGR say .....

*STROKES GAINED WORLD RATING*

A player’s Strokes Gained World Rating is based on a player’s actual scores in stroke-play events and adjusted for the relative difficulty of each round played over a rolling two-year period.

To place more emphasis on recent performances, a similar weighting system as that applied to World Ranking Points is utilised (i.e., a 13-week period of full weight, thereafter, reduced in equal decrements).

Scores from completed 18-hole round stroke-play events are eligible for inclusion in the Strokes Gained World Rating.


*TOTAL FIELD RATING*

Every player in a tournament field contributes performance points as determined by the player's individual Strokes Gained World Rating. The sum of these Performance Points determines the Total Field Rating.

---
I agree it may be easier to ignore the points and do something different, as I think backsticks has also suggested
		
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For simplicity.

Let us say 10 golfers decide to leave all established tours, and play in their own individual set of events. The format is different (only 3 rounds, no cut, limited players, no qualification or loss of place on future events, etc). These 10 players may be the top 10 golfers in the world when they join.

How do you derive a ranking system that provides reasonable ranking points to all players? In a year or two's time, will the ranking system still have these guys as the top 10 in the world, or outside the top 10? Regardless of the answer to this, how do we know the rankings are providing a reasonable result? Maybe these guys would still be the top 10 golfers in the world. But, then again, maybe not. Maybe a few are, but several could have declined significantly. How do we determine their proper place in the world, when they've only really been competing against 9 other guys? Whoever is considered best out of those 10 guys after a year or 2 might still be best in the world. Then again, they might only be 20th, 30th, etc in the world, as many others outside that group of 10 might now be better than them. How do we position them amongst everyone else?

This is not so much of an issue pre LIV. We are primarily focused on the top of the rankings for qualification to the major events. In that sense, most of the top golfers in the world are ultimately ending up on the PGAT. Some may also end up on the DP World Tour. But, I am sure there are enough events, including Majors, where there is enough of a representation of PGAT and DP World Tour players, to constantly monitor how they finish relative to each other. The rankings they get before joining the PGAT are sufficient enough to allow them to climb the ranks of whatever tour they are on, and then they'll likely move up a tour to elevate their career. But, who knows if the guy that sits 501st in the world is actually better than the guy who sits 701st? At that level, it is far enough our radar not to make much interest, and it has no impact on the qualification to Major events.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

LiV golf is just like The Match. Should we give WR points out for that too?


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Focusing on the highlighted - there are currently over 20 tours being ranked, how much crossover do you think there is? Surely that is the point of the system to allow the comparison of players playing in different places isn't it? e.g. Ryan Fox to Kazuki Higa to Scott Vincent to Marty Dou Zecheng. Afraid I am really not following your view here.

Also not following the "complete set of different goalposts".  Isn't stroke play just stroke play?  Hit the ball until it goes in the hole...

Here is what the OWGR say .....

*STROKES GAINED WORLD RATING*

A player’s Strokes Gained World Rating is based on a player’s actual scores in stroke-play events and adjusted for the relative difficulty of each round played over a rolling two-year period.

To place more emphasis on recent performances, a similar weighting system as that applied to World Ranking Points is utilised (i.e., a 13-week period of full weight, thereafter, reduced in equal decrements).

Scores from completed 18-hole round stroke-play events are eligible for inclusion in the Strokes Gained World Rating.


*TOTAL FIELD RATING*

Every player in a tournament field contributes performance points as determined by the player's individual Strokes Gained World Rating. The sum of these Performance Points determines the Total Field Rating.

---
I agree it may be easier to ignore the points and do something different, as I think backsticks has also suggested
		
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Indeed, points for a single LIV 'tournament' might be able to be calculated, but for an entire series where that is the only style makes it  impossible to accurately rate it. That's the reason the OWGR 'requires' the majority to be open, have qualifying and cuts! Even if LIV does get OWGR points certification, the numbers will be reduced because of the format! I'm uncertain whether LIV execs are really interested in getting OWGR points anyway - it gives them something to continue their 'disruption' publicity! OWGR points will only be of significant benefit to a small number of their players and only for a relatively short time!


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			For simplicity.

Let us say 10 golfers decide to leave all established tours, and play in their own individual set of events. The format is different (only 3 rounds, no cut, limited players, no qualification or loss of place on future events, etc). These 10 players may be the top 10 golfers in the world when they join.

How do you derive a ranking system that provides reasonable ranking points to all players? In a year or two's time, will the ranking system still have these guys as the top 10 in the world, or outside the top 10? Regardless of the answer to this, how do we know the rankings are providing a reasonable result? Maybe these guys would still be the top 10 golfers in the world. But, then again, maybe not. Maybe a few are, but several could have declined significantly. How do we determine their proper place in the world, when they've only really been competing against 9 other guys? Whoever is considered best out of those 10 guys after a year or 2 might still be best in the world. Then again, they might only be 20th, 30th, etc in the world, as many others outside that group of 10 might now be better than them. How do we position them amongst everyone else?

This is not so much of an issue pre LIV. We are primarily focused on the top of the rankings for qualification to the major events. In that sense, most of the top golfers in the world are ultimately ending up on the PGAT. Some may also end up on the DP World Tour. But, I am sure there are enough events, including Majors, where there is enough of a representation of PGAT and DP World Tour players, to constantly monitor how they finish relative to each other. The rankings they get before joining the PGAT are sufficient enough to allow them to climb the ranks of whatever tour they are on, and then they'll likely move up a tour to elevate their career. But, who knows if the guy that sits 501st in the world is actually better than the guy who sits 701st? At that level, it is far enough our radar not to make much interest, and it has no impact on the qualification to Major events.
		
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Thanks for explaining, I do better understand your view now.
In simple terms to maintain a position a player needs to be collecting points to match the ones dropping off. So in your example, if a player keeps playing badly they'd earn very few points and drop.
In reality if it was only 10 players I suspect the max points wouldn't be enough to keep maintaining position.
Of course 10 is an extreme number, and every system is imperfect. That would kind of be their problem to solve - and the solution may be related to the strokes gained methodology.


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			LiV golf is just like The Match. Should we give WR points out for that too?
		
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Hmmm, no emojis 🤔
Okay, back to you  - what format is The Match this year?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Thanks for explaining, I do better understand your view now.
In simple terms to maintain a position a player needs to be collecting points to match the ones dropping off. So in your example, if a player keeps playing badly they'd earn very few points and drop.
In reality if it was only 10 players I suspect the max points wouldn't be enough to keep maintaining position.
Of course 10 is an extreme number, and every system is imperfect. That would kind of be their problem to solve - and the solution may be related to the strokes gained methodology.
		
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Indeed, this is the problem. A player could start playing worse, but if the 9 others around him are as well, you can only compare their performances to one another. We can't really compare it to guys competing separately, like up and coming young prodigies that find their way on to PGAT. Conversely, but unlikely, we don't know if LIV has made them better players, and they should improve upon their world position (if others were ahead of them to begin with).

10 might be considered an extreme example, but it is not much more extreme than 48. And, to be honest, if you had 500 on PGAT, and 500 on LIV, with no crossover between them, it would still be difficult to rank against each other. The only thing is there may be enough crossover in the 4 Majors to derive some sort of rough factor.

Using stats against the course may help, like handicaps for us. But, that would be flawed, as course set ups and conditions can play a huge part. Watch tours request easier set ups to improve player ratings. The only proper way to rank players is to have them competing against each other often enough, so that the rankings can be based on results against each other, rather than against the course.


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2022)

Strokes Gained WR can be a bit complicated 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592213210970873857


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Thanks for explaining, I do better understand your view now.
In simple terms to maintain a position *a player needs to be collecting points to match the ones dropping off*. So in your example, if a player keeps playing badly they'd earn very few points and drop.
In reality if it was only 10 players I suspect the max points wouldn't be enough to keep maintaining position.
Of course 10 is an extreme number, and every system is imperfect. That would kind of be their problem to solve - and the solution may be related to the strokes gained methodology.
		
Click to expand...

'matching' points isn't quite right! Because there's an 'ageing' process, where points earned are rated at full value for 13 weeks (3 months-ish) then decrease in value for rating value according to a scale before dropping off 2 years after the event. Those that drop off have less effect than those added recently. So those added recently affect a player's average for ranking more than old ones - that's how it emphasises recent results. A recent 20th place might be the equivalent, for ranking, to a 10th or better place on the one that drops off. Of course, that's the same for all players, so another source of variation.
And, of course, if the player ranked immediately below him performed better (say won the tournament they both played) it's quite possible that he will leapfrog the previously higher player purely based on the resultant better average! There are additional quirks too!


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Strokes Gained WR can be a bit complicated

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592213210970873857

Click to expand...

Another example of the 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics' truism!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 14, 2022)

At least an Englishman picked up some strong points this weekend.

Well done Benjamin Taylor on your 3rd place in the Houston Open.

Sorry Tommy, you played in the wrong event son.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			At least an Englishman picked up some strong points this weekend.

Well done Benjamin Taylor on your 3rd place in the Houston Open.

Sorry Tommy, you played in the wrong event son.
		
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Mel, not sure what planet you are currently in orbit around, but the facts are

Ben Taylor picked up 15.24 ranking points and a chq for $579600 US  (Very well done, game changer for him)

Tommy picked up 14.92 points and over a million euros in prize dosh

Are you really crowing about 0.32 of a ranking point?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 14, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mel, not sure what planet you are currently in orbit around, but the facts are

Ben Taylor picked up 15.24 ranking points and a chq for $579600 US  (Very well done, game changer for him)

Tommy picked up 14.92 points and over a million euros in prize dosh

Are you really crowing about 0.32 of a ranking point?
		
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The average ranking of the top ten finishers was higher (better) at the Nedbank than it was in Houston - so you could argue the Nedbank was pretty difficult to win - this despite the world number 2 finishing in the top ten in Houston. I'm just highlighting how the points system isn't perhaps all that accurate.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2022)

So its fine to try and discredit the points system when it suits your argument

But LIV would love to be part of that same system....Go Figure


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 14, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So its fine to try and discredit the points system when it suits your argument

But LIV would love to be part of that same system....Go Figure
		
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I think my view has consistently been that the points system isn't accurate, not being able to include LIV players in that definitely adds weight to that argument, does it not?
If you check back on my posts you'll find I've repeatedly said that the OWGR is now defunct as a world golf ranking system. 
If a guy winning an event is getting less points than somebody finishing 3rd in an event with a similar level of competition, then that also adds to that argument.


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The average ranking of the top ten finishers was higher (better) at the Nedbank than it was in Houston - so you could argue the Nedbank was pretty difficult to win - this despite the world number 2 finishing in the top ten in Houston. I'm just highlighting how the points system isn't perhaps all that accurate.
		
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You are doing equivalent of comparing Apples and Oranges!
Nedbank is an Invitation, No cut 64 player field! Houston was a standard 132 player field Direct or via Qualifying, with a halfway cut! One gets 221.5 Field points; the other 86.95! The #2 ranked player only finished T9! 

That simply demonstrates the different rating of an Invitation, 64 player No Cut tournament to a normal one - with 132 direct or qualifying players and a halfway cut that eliminate 64 of them, some ranked highly (12, 17, 19, 27, 33)! That's consistent with my statements that LIV, with 48 player, no qualifying, no cut , 3 round 'tournaments', will not be allocated a huge number of Field points!

Basically - It's NOT 'a similar level of competition'!


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think my view has consistently been that the points system isn't accurate, not being able to include LIV players in that definitely adds weight to that argument, does it not?
If you check back on my posts you'll find I've repeatedly said that the OWGR is now defunct as a world golf ranking system.
If a guy winning an event is getting less points than somebody finishing 3rd in an event with a similar level of competition, then that also adds to that argument.
		
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It wasn't a similar level of competition though was it,  is it easier to win in a field of 150 professionals or one with a field of 30?


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 14, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe those non Aussies could have thought about growing the Game....and yes players have to ask the PGAT for a release even to play in your national OPEN, and there were consequences.
		
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PGAT players do have to seek permission to play in tournaments outside of their tour,  but permission has historically almost always been approved.  Paul Casey and Sergio Garcia played in the last Australian Open as did Cam Smith.  So what were the  "consequences" for them I wonder,  don't remember hearing about them being banned and /or fined.


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm not suggesting you're an evangelist Iain, no issue at all with your contributions. 

I'd consider LIV more sports entertainment than serious golf.

Sports entertainment is a type of spectacle which presents an ostensibly competitive event using a high level of theatrical flourish & extravagant presentation with the purpose of entertaining an audience.  Unlike typical sports and games which are conducted for competition, sportsmanship, physical exercise or personal recreation, the primary product of sports entertainment is performance for an audience's benefit.  Commonly, but not in all cases, the outcomes are predetermined; as this is an open secret, it is not considered to be match fixing.

The LIV field is hand-picked, there is no open qualification route, there's definitely theatrical flourish and it's clearly designed to pull in a crowd; the contrived team event being just one example. And there's the safety net of being paid regardless of the result.  So I'd consider LIV to be nearer the WWE (without the predetermined results) or the Harlem Globetrotters than a serious golf tour (and I'm not suggesting the last line of the definition applies, I merely included it for completeness). 

Serious golf is playing for your livelihood, knowing that you need to perform to earn money; not that you can just turn up and get paid.  It's competition that's open to a greater or lesser degree, rather than a closed shop, which results in finding the best of the best.  The Opens are precisely that, open to those with the talent, as are the DP & PGA Tours; if you are good enough you can earn your way there and make a living, if you aren't then you're out. 

The Hero World Challenge I would consider a charity exhibition event; it's not got clearly defined entry conditions, it's a benefit for the Tiger Woods Foundation and it's not an official tour event so no Fedex points.  It's good golf to watch but not a serious golf tournament.

The CJ Cup is different for me.  Clearly defined entry conditions; although it's a limited field of 78, the entrants are the top 60 available from the previous years FedEx standings, winners of the KPGA & Genesis Championship on the Korean Tour, top 3 available players from the Korean Tour OoM, top available player from the Asian Tour OoM, top available Korean, player from the Asian Tour OoM, top next 3 available Korean players from the Official World Golf Ranking and 8 sponsors exemptions; 5 PGA Tour members, the winner of a Korean amateur qualifier and two unrestricted.  So a restricted field, but  a quality one, and one that you can earn your way into, like the US Masters.  I'm not suggesting that it is anything like the quality of the Masters, but the fact that there is a clearly defined entry route into it, and that players can earn their place, places it in the serious golf category for me; not the top end, but certainly not exhibition golf or sports entertainment.

I don't have a problem with sports entertainment.  It exists to serve a market, but that market isn't me.  I don't have an issue with players choosing to go; I fully understand the reason why players like Richard Bland go, and I admire Harold Varner III's honestly in stating why he's gone.  But there are also certain aspects of the behaviour, such as the lawsuits, the have our cake and eat it attitude of some, the whining about the points and the belief that they are the saviours of golf and that the world should be grateful to them that annoy me intensely and as such I cannot see me ever warming to them however it develops, if indeed it does.
		
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Thanks R, a detailed and thoughtful post. I'd interpreted the serious sport part as the bit after the whistle blows/hooter sounds, and separated away from the whole qualification side; whereas, if I follow, I think you feel you view them as together.
For me, I feel the developmental / lower level pro golf is really at that pure sporting place - as you mention playing for a living, on the edge. Might be back in a regular job if it doesn't go well. I'd place the two major Opens very close to that - very clear pathways. Away form them, as the rewards grow, for me, the lines start to blur a little - sponsors, commercial tours, management companies, appearance fees, special exemptions and invites, players committees, etc. OOMs typically have an element of participation reward as well as performance. Some criteria maybe seem more about 'keeping players in the club' rather than on form/performance.
Definitely the LIV thing pushed out those boundaries even more, and it may come down to where lines are drawn (individually). Certainly there is a current lack of clarity around exactly how LIV operates, plenty of bluster - feels like winging it at times. I've not checked, but I am pretty confident that no event had the same 48 players as another one though - so it didn't feel (to me) like a totally closed shop, and there did seem some degree of qualification and "dropping" - even if not going far enough or clear enough. Pros love a good moan, am confident the cracks will show soon and there'll be some revelations that may clarify further on this!

Somewhere around page 3 I said something like 'I'll judge it in June 2023' when I might actually know what it is - I may well feel the same as you by then. I guess for now I have cut a bit of slack as a full qualifier would had been pointless in June when scratching around to fill a field. I do think it may have more sense for them to "buy" an existing tour and build it up over time, but I guess they wanted to move more quickly which inevitably has caused resentment, with reason.

Perhaps the interesting piece is where pro golf is heading - LPhil made a point (if I recall) when the change announcements started to come out that PGAT should have 'trusted what they had'. For me, if they had cut out much of the fluff that has built up, and paired back to a more 'pure sporting' offering then I could have more easily stood behind that - we'll have to wait to see what actually pans out, but the announcements as I understand them seem to be moving further away from that place, and into areas you have raised concerns about. This may well be viewed partly LIV's fault of course!
As things clarify I do wonder if being in the LIV pot for one season ends up being that different to being a fully exempt PGA TOUR member (guaranteed entry into all full-field events) in practical actuality.


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## AussieKB (Nov 15, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Please explain your reasoning - apart from timing! Surely, you are not considering that a 'victory' for LIV! Do you consider the change from wrap around to pure calendar schedule a good thing? It certainly means Golf tournaments can be arranged in Southern Hemisphere in more reliable weather, though Summer might not be the optimum time for some parts of Oz! Remember, the PGAT is US-centric, as that's where by far the greatest audience (primary driver) and source of top level players is!
		
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Like you said the PGAT is all about the USA, everyone else including the EU are just feeder tours to them.


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## AussieKB (Nov 15, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			PGAT players do have to seek permission to play in tournaments outside of their tour,  but permission has historically almost always been approved.  Paul Casey and Sergio Garcia played in the last Australian Open as did Cam Smith.  So what were the  "consequences" for them I wonder,  don't remember hearing about them being banned and /or fined.
		
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That was before the wrap around tour started, as did many come out here before, Seve, Faldo, Monty and Couples to name a few and of course Tigger when they paid him US$100 million to show up.


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## AussieKB (Nov 15, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			You are doing equivalent of comparing Apples and Oranges!
Nedbank is an Invitation, No cut 64 player field! Houston was a standard 132 player field Direct or via Qualifying, with a halfway cut! One gets 221.5 Field points; the other 86.95! The #2 ranked player only finished T9!

That simply demonstrates the different rating of an Invitation, 64 player No Cut tournament to a normal one - with 132 direct or qualifying players and a halfway cut that eliminate 64 of them, some ranked highly (12, 17, 19, 27, 33)! That's consistent with my statements that LIV, with 48 player, no qualifying, no cut , 3 round 'tournaments', will not be allocated a huge number of Field points!

Basically - It's NOT 'a similar level of competition'!
		
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If the Nedbank was invitational and no cut, doesn't it then make it an exhibition game ?


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Like you said the PGAT is all about the USA, everyone else including the EU are just feeder tours to them.
		
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 That's a Mel level of spin as it's NOT what I said! There's a huge difference, between 'US-centric' and 'all about USA'! Oh and what has 27 countries (the EU) got to do with the PGAT? If you mean ET, then certainly t's a 'feeder tour' for their US events; but also a 'partner tour', allowing PGAT players to play, and be seen, in Europe! Basically, 'so what'!


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If the Nedbank was invitational and no cut, doesn't it then make it an exhibition game ?

Click to expand...

To some, as I've heard it so descried - by an ex Sunshine Tour player! What's your point? It matches LIV in that regard, so you must believe LIV is an exhibition game to be making that comment!


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			you are missing the point, the PGAT created the wrap around tour which the now have abandoned, due to LIV in my opinion, before that we had US and Euro players turning up, but if you cannot get World Players then it is very hard to get sponsors.
		
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Do you mean they created it due to LIV? Or that they abandoned it due to LIV? Your meaning is unclear (cum ambiguous)! If the latter, why do you think that - other than the timing? They've done quite a few things, some obviously because of LIV! But that's not an obvious one - and anyway, so what!


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## Imurg (Nov 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If the Nedbank was invitational and no cut, doesn't it then make it an exhibition game ?

Click to expand...

No...because they had to qualify to play in it..
Just like this week..50 players..that had to qualify to be there
It's not an Invitational.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 15, 2022)

I thought it was the Poms that were supposed to be the whingers?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 15, 2022)

Let's see if Nosfertu has got his maths right this weekend, that's quite a negative swing projected for the DPWTC..


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 15, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			That was before the wrap around tour started, as did many come out here before, Seve, Faldo, Monty and Couples to name a few and of course Tigger when they paid him US$100 million to show up.
		
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Sorry but that is rubbish,  the PGAT started with the wrap-around season in 2013-2014.  Those players appeared in the Australian Open in 2019,  the last one to be contested.   Given that it is played in January I'm not sure how the wrap-around season has any bearing on it anyway.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 15, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Sorry but that is rubbish,  the PGAT started with the wrap-around season in 2013-2014.  Those players appeared in the Australian Open in 2019,  the last one to be contested.   Given that it is played in January *I'm not sure how the wrap-around season has any bearing on it anyway.*

Click to expand...

In truth it doesn’t. But rather than be honest and say they can’t be arsed to go to Australia, the players used the wrap around season as an excuse not to go.


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## IainP (Nov 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			No...because they had to qualify to play in it..
Just like this week..50 players..that had to qualify to be there
It's not an Invitational.
		
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Agree, although maybe eligibility would be a better phrase -
---
The field for the 2022 Nedbank Golf Challenge will feature a maximum of 66 players, and with a new eligibility criteria allowing for 5 tournament invites. Players who meet the following eligibility criteria will be granted a place in one of the most sought-after tournaments in world golf:
*ELIGIBILITY:*

The leading available 60* players from the DP World Tour Rankings as of 30th October 2022
The winner of the final 2021/2022 Sunshine Tour Order of Merit*
5 Professional tournament invitations
---
Qualification is just meeting some criteria. Agree on the DPWT Tour Championship. I understand how Morikawa, Zalatoris and Pepperell met the criteria (in different ways!)
Before the trouble arrived, I've stated my preference for the majors to not be included in the rankings for these end of tour season events - make it a better reward for loyalty and performance on the tour - but money, sponsors and ratings will mean that will likely never happen.
But I do acknowledge it is not an open, and I'm okay with that.

I also think the owgr will do a reasonable job on ranking the outcomes in Dubai against those at RSM.
Everyone will be paid, no livelihoods are at stake - I am looking forward to enjoying the sports entertainment.  Probably rooting for Ryan Fox.

Ooh, just been notified that if I visit the local supermarket a number of times in the next period, then I'll qualify for extra opportunity for rewards that are not open to other shoppers - happy days !


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## Backsticks (Nov 15, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Sorry but that is rubbish,  the PGAT started with the wrap-around season in 2013-2014.  Those players appeared in the Australian Open in 2019,  the last one to be contested.   Given that it is played in January I'm not sure how the wrap-around season has any bearing on it anyway.
		
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It was a complete go/nogo. But it was an increasing disincentive to go.


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

Will all go back to 'normal' next year! 2024 season returning to being calendar year based.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It was a complete go/nogo. But it was an increasing disincentive to go.
		
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Please can you explain how,  I just don't see it?  The PGAT has been an all-round tour for a very long time,  I just don't get how changing the season start/end time has any bearing on players travelling to Australia to play in January.  It would seem that the ever-increasing purses offered by the PGAT are the reason non-Australians choose not to travel across the globe at a not insignificant cost in time and money in the hope of winning very little, is the much more likely reason.


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## PieMan (Nov 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Ooh, just been notified that if I visit the local supermarket a number of times in a the next period, then I'll qualify for extra opportunity for rewards that are not open to other shoppers - happy days ! 

Click to expand...

Is it the new Saudi supermarket chain - LIVL?!!!


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## IainP (Nov 15, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Is it the new Saudi supermarket chain - LIVL?!!! 

Click to expand...

Ah no, they only do criteria based invitations,  not criteria based qualifications - a subtle but important difference. 😉
Plus they play the music too loud, don't open every day, and I can't afford them 😁🤣😉


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## Red devil (Nov 15, 2022)

I was wondering that when LIV was formed one of its USP's was it aim to "grow the game"!
How has this been progressing? Be interested to know


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## Backsticks (Nov 15, 2022)

By grow the game, they meant grow the revenue from the business of top 50 golfers in the world playing tournaments.

Some misuderstood 'the game' to be golf as a whole, participation numbers, access to it around the world, less exclusivity, etc. 
But that isnt what they were speaking about. It probably suited them to not correct people misunderstanding that though.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 15, 2022)

Liv reported to (Fire Drill Podcast) have a Monday Qualifier for their events next year. 

Could be for just one spot but with a guaranteed $120,000 for last place if you qualify there will be plenty willing to have a bash..


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## cleveland52 (Nov 15, 2022)

Imurg said:



			No...because they had to qualify to play in it..
Just like this week..50 players..that had to qualify to be there
It's not an Invitational.
		
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I can guarantee you that two pages from now AussieKB will ask this same question....

"AussieKB said:
If the Nedbank was invitational and no cut, doesn't it then make it an exhibition game ?"
No...because they had to qualify to play in it..
Just like this week..50 players..that had to qualify to be there
It's not an Invitational


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 15, 2022)

Great of Rory to act all mature by telling everybody Greg needs to be given the heave so that there are only adults in the room.

The guy is a gifted golfer, but jaysus, he's coming across a right bellend at the moment.


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Great of Rory to act all mature by telling everybody Greg needs to be given the heave so that there are only adults in the room.

The guy is a gifted golfer, but jaysus, he's coming across a right bellend at the moment.
		
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I love him to bits but he needs to wind his neck in, it just isnt helping at all. Had that been a LIV guy saying similar about the PGA the pack of wolves would have been all over it.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I love him to bits but he needs to wind his neck in, it just isnt helping at all. Had that been a LIV guy saying similar about the PGA the pack of wolves would have been all over it.
		
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I'm gonna get tickets for The Open just so I can go along and Boo him. 

Love him as a golfer but he's contradicting himself repeatedly - there's nothing 'mature' about him effeectively calling Gregg Norman out as a child.


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I can guarantee you that two pages from now AussieKB will ask this same question....

"AussieKB said:
If the Nedbank was invitational and no cut, doesn't it then make it an exhibition game ?"
No...because they had to qualify to play in it..
Just like this week..50 players..that had to qualify to be there
It's not an *Invitational*

Click to expand...

I think the point is not about 'Invitational' (after all, The Masters is one), but whether there's qualification criteria. If there's none, other than being a member of 'the Tour', then assigning the '*Exhibition*' tag is valid. Nedbank does have qualification criteria, so that handle doesn't apply. It _does_ apply to LIV though!


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## Ian_George (Nov 15, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'm gonna get tickets for The Open just so I can go along and Boo him. 

Love him as a golfer but he's *contradicting himself repeatedly* - there's nothing 'mature' about him effeectively calling Gregg Norman out as a child.
		
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Do you have examples? Certainly making some daft comments! And I agree with commentators; there'll be no peace until the lawsuits are resolved!


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## IainP (Nov 15, 2022)

This formative doc was captured earlier in the year (some of his comments are quite amusing)

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/ho...epted-for-the-liv-golf-invitational-in-london


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2022)

Rory is right in some way - LIV would be better off without Greg Norman - he is one of the biggest issues with the tour


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## bladeplayer (Nov 15, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I love him to bits but he needs to wind his neck in, it just isnt helping at all. Had that been a LIV guy saying similar about the PGA the pack of wolves would have been all over it.
		
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Yea , gota agree ,massive Rory fan , but he has just gota leave it now , he has too much to say in my opinion , he changed his mind on Ryder cup , the open , and is slowly seeing he might have to change on Liv , He seems to be or want to be the voice


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 15, 2022)

Maybe we’ll see the statement from the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour distancing themselves from Rory’s comments shortly, or maybe it’s a way of getting it out there without it directly coming from the other tours… 🤔


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## Backsticks (Nov 15, 2022)

LIV seems to live in a world of maybe...


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## Red devil (Nov 15, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			By grow the game, they meant grow the revenue from the business of top 50 golfers in the world playing tournaments.

Some misuderstood 'the game' to be golf as a whole, participation numbers, access to it around the world, less exclusivity, etc.
But that isnt what they were speaking about. It probably suited them to not correct people misunderstanding that though.
		
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Forgive me I was maybe naive in thinking that there was something altruistic in their aim "to grow the game" for the benefit of players and encourage non players to the game. Guess not.


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## AussieKB (Nov 15, 2022)

Red devil said:



			I was wondering that when LIV was formed one of its USP's was it aim to "grow the game"!
How has this been progressing? Be interested to know
		
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Very excited that they are coming to OZ., thanks for asking.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Very excited that they are coming to OZ., thanks for asking.
		
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I'd bet that the LIV players (especially the non-Aus ones) are excited about the travel involved too! That (reduced travelling) was, supposedly, one of the benefits of the move! It's 24hrs flying for several of them - Cam and Greg for example!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I'd bet that the LIV players (especially the non-Aus ones) are excited about the travel involved too! That (reduced travelling) was, supposedly, one of the benefits of the move! It's 24hrs flying for several of them - Cam and Greg for example!
		
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Wont that depend on where they are at the time? Some will be at home be that in Australia, Asia etc
They'll also play in Asia back to back, which mitigates the travelling time.

For the US and European based players, it will be one long distance trip of the season, there will be 12 other events which will then need the usual, or negligible travelling time.
I don't think any of the players have said they wanted less travelling time, just that they wanted more time to spend with their families. The point you are making comes up often, especially in relation to the Australian event, but alas, it's just spin.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 16, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

You know you're making a relevant point when the admins start trolling you, aye?


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## AussieKB (Nov 16, 2022)

Just looked at the DP World Championship in Dubai......
is someone impersonating Rory ?
he surely cannot be after their money ?


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I think the point is not about 'Invitational' (after all, The Masters is one), but whether there's qualification criteria. If there's *none*, other than being a member of 'the Tour', then assigning the 'Exhibition' tag is valid. Nedbank does have qualification criteria, so that handle doesn't apply. It _does_ apply to LIV though!
		
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Liv are reported on multiple media outlets to be announcing Monday qualifiers for every event and pathway from the Asian tour in 2023.

So in your post above none is the wrong term, Limited would be more accurate for 2023.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Just looked at the DP World Championship in Dubai......
is someone impersonating Rory ?
he surely cannot be after their money ?
		
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It's a selfless act to help push up the OWGR rankings, nowt to do with the cash. ;-)


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 16, 2022)

Fair.?? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592494397798875137


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Just looked at the DP World Championship in Dubai......
is someone impersonating Rory ?
he surely cannot be after their money ?
		
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He is a member of the European Tour , and it’s the final event of the European Tour order or merit and he is currently top of the standings - yes he is only playing for the money as opposed to being number one on both the main golf tours 🙄


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## AussieKB (Nov 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a member of the European Tour , and it’s the final event of the European Tour order or merit and he is currently top of the standings - yes he is only playing for the money as opposed to being number one on both the main golf tours 🙄
		
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How do you spell HYPOCRITE ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How do you spell HYPOCRITE ?
		
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So he is a hypocrite because he is playing in the season ending event ( which is does every season ) of a tour that he is a member off and because it gives him the chance of being number one on both tours 🤷‍♂️


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## Bdill93 (Nov 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So he is a hypocrite because he is playing in the season ending event ( which is does every season ) of a tour that he is a member off and because it gives him the chance of being number one on both tours 🤷‍♂️
		
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I think he's talking about the source of the funding for the event... but I may be wrong


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## AussieKB (Nov 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So he is a hypocrite because he is playing in the season ending event ( which is does every season ) of a tour that he is a member off and because it gives him the chance of being number one on both tours 🤷‍♂️
		
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Not just Rory....where is the money coming from ? do not read your earlier posts.


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## Beezerk (Nov 16, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I think he's talking about the source of the funding for the event... but I may be wrong
		
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Just tried Googling it but failed, where is the funding from out of interest?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 16, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Just tried Googling it but failed, where is the funding from out of interest?
		
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Well DPWT on the whole

https://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=dp+world+ownership - DP World is owned by the Dubai ruling family.

Dubai's human rights record isn't exactly a picture of perfection. Women get jailed for being raped... So he has a point

Apparently money from LIV is a no no but Money from DPWT is sound... because they brought the right tour?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

We're in danger of getting political, but a lot of the criticism aimed at the KSA is due to their human rights record - which is a consequence of the country being controlled by Sharia Law. 
The UAE use Sharia Law also, but also have integrated other laws which has perhaps resulted in their justice system becoming more compliant with wetern values.

The Saudis will need to take this path if they want to re-build the country as a tourist destination, and they are on that path - but it takes time.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Wont that depend on where they are at the time? Some will be at home be that in Australia, Asia etc
They'll also play in Asia back to back, which mitigates the travelling time.

For the US and European based players, it will be one long distance trip of the season, there will be 12 other events which will then need the usual, or negligible travelling time.
I don't think any of the players have said they wanted less travelling time, just that they wanted more time to spend with their families. The point you are making comes up often, especially in relation to the Australian event, but alas, it's just spin.
		
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Objection overruled! Doesn't matter where they at the time! There'll be '24 hours flyng' involved, not necessarily all at once (which would actually increase the amount of flying) from (or to) their homes in Florida! That may be only 1-way, but likely (effectively) doubled (even more if in stages)!

Even with there being a 'swing', there's even more flying Adelaide to Singapore is over 7 hours flight from Adelaide, so another a long flight! And then 25 hours+ back to home! Still a lot of flying - and time away from home!


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## Backsticks (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv are reported on multiple media outlets to be announcing Monday qualifiers for every event and pathway from the Asian tour in 2023.

So in your post above none is the wrong term, Limited would be more accurate for 2023.
		
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Did I see that the Monday qualifiers are for one place in the field. Or was that just sarcasm that passed me ?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Objection overruled! Doesn't matter where they at the time! There'll be '24 hours flyng' involved, not necessarily all at once (which would actually increase the amount of flying) from (or to) their homes in Florida! That may be only 1-way, but likely (effectively) doubled (even more if in stages)!

Even with there being a 'swing', there's even more flying Adelaide to Singapore is over 7 hours flight from Adelaide, so another a long flight! And then 25 hours+ back to home! Still a lot of flying - and time away from home!
		
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"Objection overruled" ... followed by more spin.





Can you understand this mate, they're effectively travelling on a day that they'd normally be playing golf on any other 4 day tour event, so come on Einsten, do the maths on that and tell me how it affects their time away from home.

LIV is 36 days of competetion golf a year, the same as 9 events on the PGA or DPWT. Aren't players being asked to play 20 events on the PGA Tour - that's 80 days right?

You can do lot of travelling in 44 days.


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## Backsticks (Nov 16, 2022)

I think it suits the LIV case to highlight the criticism of the Saudi regime, and so be able to highlight other field of golf taking money from Saudi, and other questionable middle east states.
This is because they it distracts from the real problem that the Saudis have caused with this venture : a cleaving of the top world golfers into two camps. This is what is problematic, damaging to golf entertainment, and why we have our knife, only metaphorically in this case, in LIV. They have no defense for the damage they have done here. They do on the hypocrisy of the source of the money. But not on the damage to the quality of golf entertainment.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it suits the LIV case to highlight the criticism of the Saudi regime, and so be able to highlight other field of golf taking money from Saudi, and other questionable middle east states.
This is because they it distracts from the real problem that the Saudis have caused with this venture : a cleaving of the top world golfers into two camps. This is what is problematic, damaging to golf entertainment, and why we have our knife, only metaphorically in this case, in LIV. They have no defense for the damage they have done here. They do on the hypocrisy of the source of the money. But not on the damage to the quality of golf entertainment.
		
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More spin.

Tell me which event you have watched since LIV that has been adversely affected by it's introduction, and why? Not the bluster around it, but the actual golf.


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## Beezerk (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Objection overruled! Doesn't matter where they at the time! There'll be '24 hours flyng' involved, not necessarily all at once (which would actually increase the amount of flying) from (or to) their homes in Florida! That may be only 1-way, but likely (effectively) doubled (even more if in stages)!

Even with there being a 'swing', there's even more flying Adelaide to Singapore is over 7 hours flight from Adelaide, so another a long flight! And then 25 hours+ back to home! Still a lot of flying - and time away from home!
		
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Business class, beds for seats, champagne flowing. I’ll have some of that 🍾👌


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## Backsticks (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			More spin.

Tell me which event you have watched since LIV that has been adversely affected by it's introduction, and why? Not the bluster around it, but the actual golf.
		
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All events since DJ, Bryson, Pat Reed, Smith, Koepka, jumped. 
Adversely affacted for sure. Not greatly. But affected. If there are no more defectors, the pgat will weather the damage. But if more go, the damage becomes more serious.
If you are suggesting the loss of those players is no loss to the pgat, then the corollary would be that they dont add value to the Saudi tour.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Can somebody lock Rory up in a cupboard and give his microphone to Jon Rahm..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592823100965408768


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv are reported on multiple media outlets to be announcing Monday qualifiers for every event and pathway from the Asian tour in 2023.

So in your post above none is the wrong term, Limited would be more accurate for 2023.
		
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1. Good! But I'll wait until the details are announced to decide whether that's tokenism or not!
2 No, my conditional  (the word 'If') wording is correct! So, as it is, LIV could, currently, be deemed Exhibition Golf!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			All events since DJ, Bryson, Pat Reed, Smith, Koepka, jumped.
Adversely affacted for sure. Not greatly. But affected. If there are no more defectors, the pgat will weather the damage. But if more go, the damage becomes more serious.
If you are suggesting the loss of those players is no loss to the pgat, then the corollary would be that they dont add value to the Saudi tour.
		
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Of course they are a loss to the PGA Tour - not the players choice by the way.  But you can't name an event that has been affected because you have no idea if any of those players would have entered, or how they would have performed.
On the other hand, they are still playing on a different series, appealing to a different audience, and you can still watch them compete if you so wish. The one where they did play alongside their other tour counterparts, (The Open) was one of the best in years - so I'm struggling to see any solid logic in your argument.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can somebody lock Rory up in a cupboard and give his microphone to Jon Rahm..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592823100965408768

Click to expand...

Silencing people with opinions we don’t like. Now where have a I heard that before 🤔


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			"Objection overruled" ... followed by more spin.





Can you understand this mate, they're effectively travelling on a day that they'd normally be playing golf on any other 4 day tour event, so come on Einsten, do the maths on that and tell me how it affects their time away from home.

LIV is 36 days of competetion golf a year, the same as 9 events on the PGA or DPWT. Aren't players being asked to play 20 events on the PGA Tour - that's 80 days right?

You can do lot of travelling in 44 days.
		
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It's still a lot of flying-travelling, the amount of which was part of their 'justification' for going to LIV!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Silencing people with opinions we don’t like. Now where have a I heard that before 🤔
		
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He can still gob off to his hearts content, he just needs to do it to a limited audience. 

Come on though, Rahm has a point right? I get the field strength by size etc, but if you were entereing either The DPWTC or the RSM this weekend, which would you fancy your chances in the most (assuming you're pretyy good at golf)


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			It's still a lot of flying-travelling, the amount of which was part of their 'justification' for going to LIV!
		
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I don't think it ever was tbh, and you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe these guys weren't aware that LIV was intended to be a truly global series that would require them to play golf across the planet - unless of course Gregg sold them a yarn about having a machine that could teleport them around the world, and they all fell for it.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			Business class, beds for seats, champagne flowing. I’ll have some of that 🍾👌
		
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Surely 1st! And, if co-ordinated properly, all on the 'company jet'!


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't think it ever was tbh, and you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe these guys weren't aware that LIV was intended to be a truly global series that would require them to play golf across the planet - unless of course Gregg sold them a yarn about having a machine that could teleport them around the world, and they all fell for it.
		
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Norman must be on his way out! You can't even spell his first name!


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## Beezerk (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Surely 1st! And, if co-ordinated properly, all on the 'company jet'!
		
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Just don’t invite Olesen on there 😬


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
Come on though, Rahm has a point right? I get the field strength by size etc, but if you were entereing either The DPWTC or the RSM this weekend, which would you fancy your chances in the most (assuming you're pretyy good at golf)
		
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Yes, he does - at least imo. It (the DPWTC) is another that should have (or at least be a candidate for having) a minimum value allocation for the winner (and maybe a couple of other places)! Though I'm not particularly keen on frigging things that way! I'd sooner have a different category of event that reflects the 'different' nature of such events and uses a multiplier - or several, depending on final placing.


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## AussieKB (Nov 16, 2022)

OWGR favors the US PGA and will continue to do so, think Rory had better have a quiet talk with Rahm, but not too bad, hate to see him move to LIV, because then he would become a has been.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Not just Rory....where is the money coming from ? do not read your earlier posts.
		
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So should they quit their home tour because of who the ET sell the sponsership too ? Going to be tough for any golfer to play anywhere then


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			OWGR favors the US PGA and will continue to do so, think Rory had better have a quiet talk with Rahm, but not too bad, hate to see him move to LIV, because then he would become a has been.
		
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Er...No it doesn't! A DPWT with the same field as a PGAT one would produce an identical Field Rating! But the attributes of PGA Tour events (eg 130+ fields) does, generally, produce a higher Field Rating! Like  squeezed balloon, the recent tweaks seemed to have raised as many apparent anomalies as they 'fixed'!


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## Depreston (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			OWGR favors the US PGA and will continue to do so, think Rory had better have a quiet talk with Rahm, but not too bad, hate to see him move to LIV, because then he would become a has been.
		
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I can't see Rahm not joining now feels like a matter of when not if


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## Imurg (Nov 16, 2022)

Depreston said:



			I can't see Rahm not joining now feels like a matter of when not if
		
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Surely some points are better than none....


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## Swango1980 (Nov 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			OWGR favors the US PGA and will continue to do so, think Rory had better have a quiet talk with Rahm, but not too bad, hate to see him move to LIV, because then he would become a has been.
		
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Another broken record, your interpretation is pathetic. I can only give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are trolling now, rather than actually believing what you say, or that is your genuine interpretation of what others have said.

Just because there are a large number of has beens on LIV, no-one has ever said 100% of them are. Playing the victim does not help your cause.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			He can still gob off to his hearts content, he just needs to do it to a limited audience. 

Come on though, Rahm has a point right? I get the field strength by size etc, but if you were entereing either The DPWTC or the RSM this weekend, which would you fancy your chances in the most (assuming you're pretyy good at golf)
		
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If I was a professional golfer competing against fellow professional golfers,  then generally I would feel my chances of winning would decrease with the size of the field.  If I was Rory I would feel confident of winning both,  guess if I was Rahm,  then maybe he'd have a better chance of winning the RSM.  If I was Paul Waring on the other hand the DPWT event would be my choice.  So it really depends on which golfer I am,  but I would say the vast majority playing in Dubai will have a better chance there than in America,  purely down to numbers and the same for those playing the RSM.


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a member of the European Tour , and it’s the final event of the European Tour order or merit and he is currently top of the standings - yes he is only playing for the money as opposed to being number one on both the main golf tours 🙄
		
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I think the option finish top is a big part of it. Have said before I think it is wrong that points from majors are included, they've effectively doubled up in the two OOMs - and over half his points are from them. But he didn't make the rules, so not his fault.
Have actually popped a few sheckles on him, these limited field no cut events seem to be his wheelhouse of late 😉

But IMO the really big, important question for this thread is...
For how long will you be referring to "The European Tour" ? 😉😁☺😀

Is it a protest? 🤔 I think we should be told.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 16, 2022)

Jon Rahm not mincing his words

OWGR seems to be losing more credibility with every passing week


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592902815453618177


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



*Jon Rahm not mincing his words*

It seems to be losing more credibility with every passing week


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592902815453618177

Click to expand...

No, he's not, is he.  From the same link in the tweet;

One day after McIlroy called for LIV Golf CEO Greg Norman’s head, Rahm supported the Northern Irishman’s view that the Australian needs to be the first casualty in the on-going dispute between LIV and the PGA/DP World Tours.  “I think Greg has had a vendetta against the PGA Tour for a long time,” Rahm said. “And when you have an ulterior motive, it can cloud your judgement a little bit. Greg is a player, not a businessman, even if he has been successful in that area. To me, he has an ulterior motive beyond just creating a golf tour. He’s had this vengeance for 30 years. So his intentions might not be as pure as they could, which is a problem. *So he might not be the best person for the job, even if he has done great things for the tour. I do believe that, for conversations to take place, Greg might need to be gone.* Right now, it doesn’t seem like he and [PGA Tour commissioner] Jay [Monahan] will want to be in the same room together.  “I’m not going to lie and tell you I agree with everything the PGA Tour has done,” Rahm continued. “It was a mistake and a wasted opportunity to not meet with LIV. Both sides missed the mark on that. And that is where a lot of the animosity started. Even if they disagreed, it would have been good to talk. So to get a resolution we might need one or both of them gone. I hope not. Jay has done a great job for the PGA Tour.”

Doesn't seem to be getting the same amount of flak as Rory for it though...


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

Yeah. I suspect Rory's "exit stage left" soundbite was heaven to the journos 

Full JR interview here..
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jo...anking-formula-laughable-greg-norman-vendetta


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## BrianM (Nov 16, 2022)

It should off been sorted long ago, there is no reason why it couldn’t have worked between all 3 tours in my opinion.
The DPWT has been royally shafted in my opinion and Keith Pelley is the man that needs to take responsibility for that.
As a European fan this is what kills me the most in all this.
That world rankings are garbage now and everyone can see that.


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

On the OGWR debate - they've decided (based on models) to reward larger fields, and the depth. This maybe helps 3 of the majors. Pelley will likely have voted for it,  so if you choose a small field for your end of year event then it is kind of what you'd expect. Rahm's comments do smack a touch of a player in the top 20 elite. That said, it does feel like the winners often come from the higher ranked players, but the rankings are catering for all placings, not just the winner.

An interesting stat though-
Winner of Korn Ferry Albertsons Boise Open  - 20 points
Winner of DPWT Tour Championship  - 22 points


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2022)

IainP said:



			I think the option finish top is a big part of it. Have said before I think it is wrong that points from majors are included, they've effectively doubled up in the two OOMs - and over half his points are from them. But he didn't make the rules, so not his fault.
Have actually popped a few sheckles on him, these limited field no cut events seem to be his wheelhouse of late 😉

But IMO the really big, important question for this thread is...
For how long will you be referring to "The European Tour" ? 😉😁☺😀

Is it a protest? 🤔 I think we should be told.
		
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It was always be the European Tour for me 😀


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think it suits the LIV case to highlight the criticism of the Saudi regime, and so be able to highlight other field of golf taking money from Saudi, and other questionable middle east states.
This is because they it distracts from the real problem that the Saudis have caused with this venture : a cleaving of the top world golfers into two camps. This is what is problematic, damaging to golf entertainment, and why we have our knife, only metaphorically in this case, in LIV. They have no defense for the damage they have done here. They do on the hypocrisy of the source of the money. But not on the damage to the quality of golf entertainment.
		
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Liv did nothing wrong in starting a new tour. 
PGAT do not own golf. 
It's simply a business challenging another business. 

The PGA Tours stance has also contributed to where we have ended up #fact

As John Rahm said today it was a mistake not talking to Liv right at the start when they held all the cards. 
No players had left at that point. 
Their arrogance and misplaced confidence that no one of any note would leave their tour was a big mistake. 

To say its all down to Liv because they had the audacity to take on the biggest tour head on and simply offer their employees an alternative employment with an offer of extra money is wrong because that happens in every other industry so why should golf be any different? 

We are where we are due to actions on both sides.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Jon Rahm not mincing his words

OWGR seems to be losing more credibility with every passing week

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592902815453618177

Click to expand...

Like the man said......"The system is based on math. No one cares what Jon Rahm thinks or how he feels.

OWGR points are based on more things than how many top twenty players are in the field.

If that were the case, a rogue tour could buy OWGR, right!?!

For example: five of the top ten players in the world playing against 38 high schoolers would be different than the same top ten players playing against 134 pgatour Pros.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv did nothing wrong in starting a new tour.
PGAT do not own golf.
It's simply a business challenging another business.

The PGA Tours stance has also contributed to where we have ended up #fact

As John Rahm said today it was a mistake not talking to Liv right at the start when they held all the cards.
No players had left at that point.
Their arrogance and misplaced confidence that no one of any note would leave their tour was a big mistake.

To say its all down to Liv because they had the audacity to take on the biggest tour head on and simply offer their employees an alternative employment with an offer of extra money is wrong because that happens in every other industry so why should golf be any different?

We are where we are due to actions on both sides.
		
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And where re we today? LIV with a fledgling Series and the PGATOUR doing just fine......Again, LIV desperately needs the Tour to Poach players, the Tour do not need LIV golf.


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## Backsticks (Nov 16, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Liv did nothing wrong in starting a new tour.
		
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This is a real nub of the matter and a more key point then the simple statement ostensibly suggests.
And is the point that many associated with LIV are misreading the room on, and why fans, not quite to a man, but almost, have not engaged with LIV proposal. Or are openly against it.

The statement is true from a legal and strictly logical point of view. They are entitled to do it. People can join it. The Saudi can sports wash if they choose. One can run other tournaments not sanctioned by the existing tours.

But despite all those being the case, from a fans perspective, i.e. those of us who follow golf regularly, tune in to far more golf on TV than just the majors, and follow results from the various tours, rankings, players progress, up and comers, etc, LIV is BAD. We want rivalry on the golf course. Rivalry between tours is nothing but BAD. Splitting players between competing business models and ventures, while it might enrich the players, or further the interests of the backers of the whatever tour does NOTHING for us as the spectators. We dont necessarily need the best 100 golfers teeing it up every week. Nobody wants to watch golf 52 weeks a year anyway. But we do want the best, or a great majority of them, competing for 20 or so tournaments a year. We dont care who runs it (although teams garbage, 'louder', no cut, shotguns, etc suggests one entity is simply trying different for the sake of a business style approach of differentiation, unique selling proposition, or some such corporate boardroom bluesky thinking rather than an understanding of golf). We just want no artificial segregation of the world best golfers, thus diluting the quality of the fields. That is bad. LIV have cause that. And as such they HAVE done wrong. We do not want the world golf show treated as a dog eat dog business or contest between the sports organisations. Call that hate for LIV if you want - but better to try to understand it and recognise it for the harmful element on the world elite golf product it has been. And why the world regards that Liv HAS done something wrong.


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

Don't think this had been posted.
Countermeasures...

https://golf.com/news/pga-tour-u-changes/?amp=1


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			This is a real nub of the matter and a more key point then the simple statement ostensibly suggests.
And is the point that many associated with LIV are misreading the room on, and why fans, not quite to a man, but almost, have not engaged with LIV proposal. Or are openly against it.

The statement is true from a legal and strictly logical point of view. They are entitled to do it. People can join it. The Saudi can sports wash if they choose. One can run other tournaments not sanctioned by the existing tours.

But despite all those being the case, from a fans perspective, i.e. those of us who follow golf regularly, tune in to far more golf on TV than just the majors, and follow results from the various tours, rankings, players progress, up and comers, etc, LIV is BAD. We want rivalry on the golf course. Rivalry between tours is nothing but BAD. Splitting players between competing business models and ventures, while it might enrich the players, or further the interests of the backers of the whatever tour does NOTHING for us as the spectators. We dont necessarily need the best 100 golfers teeing it up every week. Nobody wants to watch golf 52 weeks a year anyway. But we do want the best, or a great majority of them, competing for 20 or so tournaments a year. We dont care who runs it (although teams garbage, 'louder', no cut, shotguns, etc suggests one entity is simply trying different for the sake of a business style approach of differentiation, unique selling proposition, or some such corporate boardroom bluesky thinking rather than an understanding of golf). We just want no artificial segregation of the world best golfers, thus diluting the quality of the fields. That is bad. LIV have cause that. And as such they HAVE done wrong. We do not want the world golf show treated as a dog eat dog business or contest between the sports organisations. Call that hate for LIV if you want - but better to try to understand it and recognise it for the harmful element on the world elite golf product it has been. And why the world regards that Liv HAS done something wrong.
		
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There is nothing stopping LIV players playing on the DPWTC, this weekend, indeed, some are - the quality of the fields aren't diluted because of LIV, no dogs will be eaten by other dogs.
And of course - LIV players are still playing on lots of other tours...

So, who's misreading the room?


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Like the man said......"The system is based on math. No one cares what Jon Rahm thinks or how he feels.

OWGR points are based on more things than how many top twenty players are in the field.

If that were the case, a rogue tour could buy OWGR, right!?!

For example: five of the top ten players in the world playing against 38 high schoolers would be different than the same top ten players playing against 134 pgatour Pros.
		
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He does have a point wrt the current week's tournaments! Run of the mill PGAT one Top ranked players 12, 26, 28, 30, 31 - 223 pts Winner gets 38pts versus DPWT Grand Final Top players 1, 5, 9, 11, 20 - 121pts Winner gets 21pts! Seems overly influenced by the difference in field size! And if I was a betting man, I opt strongly for one of the 5 top ranked guys winning DPWTC, but would be nowhere near as confident about The RSM Classic! FWIW (and perhaps 'to my shame!'), 3 of the top 10 names in RSM list are unfamiliar to me!


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*There is nothing stopping LIV players playing on the DPWTC, this weekend, indeed, some are* - the quality of the fields aren't diluted because of LIV, no dogs will be eaten by other dogs.
And of course - LIV players are still playing on lots of other tours...

So, who's misreading the room?
		
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That's only because there's a temporary 'stay' in place until the (February) court hearing!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			That's only because there's a temporary 'stay' in place until the (February) court hearing!
		
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And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.
		
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Not a question for me! But they take points away from guys committed (solely) to DPWT by guys the Tour Management would sooner not participate in it! At least until February court case rules on it! FWIW. Are there any LIV players other than Oteagui actually playing DPWT events? The few I know of stopped after PGA @ Wentworth! That's probably why there's not much 'noise'! Oteagui's win certainly caused some fuss though!


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## Backsticks (Nov 16, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.
		
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No, I didnt say what you are saying I said. I refer to the tournaments with the world's best golfers. Other than the sporadic visitor from the PGAT or co-sanctioned events, DPWT events are not weakened with Saudi players excluded. They wouldnt be there anyway. Saudi players being there elevates DPWT tournaments somewhat. It is a second division, and neither here nor there on the LIV issue. But having the Saudis play in the DPWT harms the PGAT. And that is a problem. If more golfers cleave, thinking a bit of LIV and a bit of DPWT is a plan, then the PGAT is harmed, and not replaced by an equivalent standard LIV. That does lead to lower quality PGAT fields. Bad for the fans. LIV is the bad guy.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, I didnt say what you are saying I said. I refer to the tournaments with the world's best golfers. Other than the sporadic visitor from the PGAT or co-sanctioned events, DPWT events are not weakened with Saudi players excluded. They wouldnt be there anyway. Saudi players being there elevates DPWT tournaments somewhat. It is a second division, and neither here nor there on the LIV issue. But having the Saudis play in the DPWT harms the PGAT. And that is a problem. If more golfers cleave, thinking a bit of LIV and a bit of DPWT is a plan, then the PGAT is harmed, and not replaced by an equivalent standard LIV. That does lead to lower quality PGAT fields. Bad for the fans. LIV is the bad guy.
		
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I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete  regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete  regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......
		
Click to expand...


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:





Click to expand...

Great response, no doubt you'll edit your post to add more depth to it shortly.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete  regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......
		
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After 444 pages and 8,865 posts, I doubt anyone has missed your point.


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Great response ...
		
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Thanks.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Thanks. I can't help being a complete idiot.

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Agreed 


(I know, it's pathetic isn't it?)


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## BrianM (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:





Click to expand...

Surely you can do better than that Foxy……


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete  regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......
		
Click to expand...

The world tour is irrelevant in itself to the LIV debate, other than as access to other tournaments which is harmful to the pgat.
But the same does not apply to the pgat. Of course having the 15 or so LIV players that are in the upper rank of world golfers would improve the field of A PGAT event. But letting them into pgat tour events would be short sighted. It would then appeal to more pgat player to go LIV. And every LIV tournament they play, would be a pgat event they would not play. So the PGAT would lose quality of field.
No amount of spin from LIVians will distract from this key point. The players know it, LIV knows it, the PGAT knows it, the media knows it, and fans know it. It seems LIV thinks people are stupid, but nobody is buying their line on this no matter how often they repeat it.
In short, the PGAT is not going to let them play : it would be winning that battle of having a better field for one tourny, but ensuring loss of the war for quality of fields in the future.


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## AussieKB (Nov 17, 2022)

So the PGA pushing for the Players Tournament to become the 5th Major and then not allowing some the best players play hurts that....
is that like cut off your nose to spite your face ?


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## AussieKB (Nov 17, 2022)

The wife is watching the golf from Dubai, I said to her that according to Rory she should watch the PGAT as that is more important, and can earn a player more points.

She still cannot understand that watching better golfers in Dubai is the wrong choice....can someone help me out here please.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The world tour is irrelevant in itself to the LIV debate, other than as access to other tournaments which is harmful to the pgat.
But the same does not apply to the pgat. Of course having the 15 or so LIV players that are in the upper rank of world golfers would improve the field of A PGAT event. *But letting them into pgat tour events would be short sighted. It would then appeal to more pgat player to go LIV. And every LIV tournament they play, would be a pgat event they would not play. So the PGAT would lose quality of field.*
No amount of spin from LIVians will distract from this key point. The players know it, LIV knows it, the PGAT knows it, the media knows it, and fans know it. It seems LIV thinks people are stupid, but nobody is buying their line on this no matter how often they repeat it.
In short, the PGAT is not going to let them play : it would be winning that battle of having a better field for one tourny, but ensuring loss of the war for quality of fields in the future.
		
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But they've lost quality of field from EVERY SINGLE event they hold, rather than a handful - they didn't need to - The DPWT events where LIV players are still taking part have better quality of fields in them - it's a fact. There is more interest in golf because of the existence of LIV - it's a fact. Why not capitalize on that interest by having those players involved in more tours?


Why is it OK for the PGA Tour to feel they have the right to host the premier golfing event of the week, practically week in, week out? They don't, any tour has the right to challenge that position, if that means weakening a few events then the PGA Tour has to deal/accept that, because every other tour around the world has played 2nd fiddle to the PGA Tour for years. 
Indeed, the PGAT have actually weakened some of their own events by introducing the elevated status prize money - they've done to themselves, exactly what they (and you) are saying LIV should not do. They've incentivized players to pick and choose where and when they show up - to the detriment of all those events that aren't selected.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The wife is watching the golf from Dubai, I said to her that according to Rory she should watch the PGAT as that is more important, and can earn a player more points.

She still cannot understand that watching better golfers in Dubai is the wrong choice....can someone help me out here please.
		
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I presume you tell her not to watch any LiV then? Oh, there isn’t any on.

Looks like the PGA tour and Rory are living rent free.


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## AussieKB (Nov 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I presume you tell her not to watch any LiV then? Oh, there isn’t any on.

Looks like the PGA tour and Rory are living rent free.
		
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Rory lives rent free wherever he goes.....as for the PGAT they are becoming a joke, hope Rory see the light and backs off, have noticed he has changed tune a lot lately, hate to see the Ryder Cup become a casualty of all this.

And even in OZ we do have access to LIV.


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So the PGA pushing for the Players Tournament to become the 5th Major and then not allowing some the best players play hurts that....
is that like cut off your nose to spite your face ?
		
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No, its more like cutting a cancer off your nose so that your face survives.

The fifth major line is historical anyway. They do t actually push that line. 5th strongest tournament, yes, is a legitimate claim


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			...
The fifth major line is historical anyway. They do t actually push that line. 5th strongest tournament, yes, is a legitimate claim
		
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In terms of Total Points allocated, The Players is actually 'stronger' than The Masters - 806 vs 780 - but that's because the field is 140 players cf 90 at The Masters and the allocation of 80 points to the Winner (vs 100 to Masters Winner).


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 17, 2022)

From what I have read under this new OWGR system that Rory says is fair and John Rahm says is laughable (how can they be so far apart)  its going to be very hard down the line for anyone on any tour apart from the PGA Tour to get into the top 50 to qualify for the Masters ??

It seems another example of the "haves" getting more and the "have nots" being punished?

Apparently if Seve Ballesteros came on the scene in 2025 and played the majority of his golf on the European Tour which is what he did because he couldn't settle in the USA, had the results he had then he would struggle to get in the top 25 in the world under this new system.

Getting the balancing act right is tricky im sure but surely that can't be a fair system ?

In the past players like Tommy Nakajima and Jumbo Ozaki qualified for the Masters through the Asian Tour, plenty have qualified through the European Tour back in the day.
Its a real shame if that can no longer happen.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, its more like cutting a cancer off your nose so that your face survives.

The fifth major line is historical anyway. They do t actually push that line. 5th strongest tournament, yes, is a legitimate claim
		
Click to expand...

Sadly the worlds best players will only come together in the majors now - Still in the new golf world a strong field but depleted from the past.

Still a GREAT PGA Tour event for sure, one I really look forward to and still do but cant be a 5th major if all the best players cant compete.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The world tour is irrelevant in itself to the LIV debate, other than as access to other tournaments which is harmful to the pgat.
But the same does not apply to the pgat. Of course having the 15 or so LIV players that are in the upper rank of world golfers would improve the field of A PGAT event. But letting them into pgat tour events would be short sighted. It would then appeal to more pgat player to go LIV. And every LIV tournament they play, would be a pgat event they would not play. So the PGAT would lose quality of field.
No amount of spin from LIVians will distract from this key point. The players know it, LIV knows it, the PGAT knows it, the media knows it, and fans know it. It seems LIV thinks people are stupid, but nobody is buying their line on this no matter how often they repeat it.
In short, the PGAT is not going to let them play : it would be winning that battle of having a better field for one tourny, but ensuring loss of the war for quality of fields in the future.
		
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Besides, why would the pgatour let LIVers in their tournaments to recruit? That's what Phil was doing.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Karma is a bitch. 

(I'm sure Rory won't actually be bothered tbh, headline is a bit sensationalist from the Golfmagic team but there's nothing new there.)

https://www.golfmagic.com/dp-world-...cond-round-pairing-dp-world-tour-championship


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Sadly the worlds best players will only come together in the majors now - Still in the new golf world a strong field but depleted from the past.

Still a GREAT PGA Tour event for sure, one I really look forward to and still do but cant be a 5th major if all the best players cant compete.
		
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5th major talk is a red herring. Even the PGAT hasnt pushed that line in years.


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			But they've lost quality of field from EVERY SINGLE event they hold, rather than a handful - they didn't need to - The DPWT events where LIV players are still taking part have better quality of fields in them - it's a fact. There is more interest in golf because of the existence of LIV - it's a fact. Why not capitalize on that interest by having those players involved in more tours?


Why is it OK for the PGA Tour to feel they have the right to host the premier golfing event of the week, practically week in, week out? They don't, any tour has the right to challenge that position, if that means weakening a few events then the PGA Tour has to deal/accept that, because every other tour around the world has played 2nd fiddle to the PGA Tour for years.
Indeed, the PGAT have actually weakened some of their own events by introducing the elevated status prize money - they've done to themselves, exactly what they (and you) are saying LIV should not do. They've incentivized players to pick and choose where and when they show up - to the detriment of all those events that aren't selected.
		
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They have lost quality of field. But the extent of the loss is minimised by excluding LIV players. Its a simple concept. Are you really not understanding this point, or just repeating a bit of alternative facts type spon  ?


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 17, 2022)

If indeed true, a blow to Liv for sure.. 

Others of course have said their not going only to u-turn later on but I think Xander will stay, not as sure about Cantlay.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593240054046113792


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They have lost quality of field. But the extent of the loss is minimised by excluding LIV players. Its a simple concept. Are you really not understanding this point, or just repeating a bit of alternative facts type spon  ?
		
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Of course I understand the tactic of preventing players from leaving by banning them from the PGAT.

Are you not understanding the counter argument that the DPWT events, which include LIV players have not been negatively impacted by their presence - we've even got the PGAT self proclaimed spokesperson playing with a LIV player and potential Ryder Cup team-mate tomorrow - fantastic for the sports writers, fantastic for garnering interest in the event, and the game generally. 

The PGA Tour could be producing exactly the same stories, if anyone of DJ, Bryson, Reed, Brooks etc had been allowed to play in the RSM this weekend, it would have stimulated a tonne of interest. But they are banned.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Of course I understand the tactic of preventing players from leaving by banning them from the PGAT.

Are you not understanding the counter argument that the DPWT events, which include LIV players have not been negatively impacted by their presence - we've even got the PGAT self proclaimed spokesperson playing with a LIV player and potential Ryder Cup team-mate tomorrow - fantastic for the sports writers, fantastic for garnering interest in the event, and the game generally.

The PGA Tour could be producing exactly the same stories, if anyone of DJ, Bryson, Reed, Brooks etc had been allowed to play in the RSM this weekend, it would have stimulated a tonne of interest. But they are banned.
		
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The PGATOUR has enough storylines without these malcontents trying to recruit players.

Liv adds nothing to Tour events.....


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The PGATOUR has enough storylines without these malcontents trying to recruit players.

Liv adds nothing to Tour events.....
		
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Lol, it's added millions and millions of dollars to the purses, better securities for players and caddies, and changed the dynamic with the DPWT to protect itself - nothing then.....


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, it's added millions and millions of dollars to the purses, better securities for players and caddies, and changed the dynamic with the DPWT to protect itself - nothing then.....
		
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No less than nothing. It has been negative. Millions to purses, securites, and caddies, means zilch to fans. We are not talking about the hungry poor of the world here. A richer Westwood ass nothing to golf. Nothing to the entertainment quality of elite world sport. Nothing. But has harmed the first division of world competitive golf. The product has not been improved. It has been disimproved. It is an indisputable fact.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No less than nothing. It has been negative. Millions to purses, securites, and caddies, means zilch to fans. We are not talking about the hungry poor of the world here. A richer Westwood ass nothing to golf. Nothing to the entertainment quality of elite world sport. Nothing. But has harmed the first division of world competitive golf. The product has not been improved. *It has been disimproved. It is an indisputable fact.[*/QUOTE]
		
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Can you show me the stats that back up that fact.


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			From what I have read under this new OWGR system that Rory says is fair and John Rahm says is laughable (how can they be so far apart)  its going to be very hard down the line for anyone on any tour apart from the PGA Tour to get into the top 50 to qualify for the Masters ??

It seems another example of the "haves" getting more and the "have nots" being punished?

Apparently if Seve Ballesteros came on the scene in 2025 and played the majority of his golf on the European Tour which is what he did because he couldn't settle in the USA, had the results he had then he would struggle to get in the top 25 in the world under this new system.

Getting the balancing act right is tricky im sure but surely that can't be a fair system ?

In the past players like Tommy Nakajima and Jumbo Ozaki qualified for the Masters through the Asian Tour, plenty have qualified through the European Tour back in the day.
Its a real shame if that can no longer happen.
		
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Just remember that it DPWT's 'funny tournament' period, so limited field events abound! And it's that aspect that's making the points allocation 'so far apart'.

I'd be interested to actually see the reasoning behind the (apparently) significant weighting of field numbers over strength of players! I'm sure they've done research, but perhaps not enough. Looking at the first round leaderboard of DPWT Champs though, it's understandable how field numbers might have more influence than would seem warranted compared to ranking - I'm certain that'll become more 'normal' by the final round though.


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## Backsticks (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you show me the stats that back up that fact.
		
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Its not a stats thing. Its a fact : PGAT events are missing some top golfers, who, were it not for LIV, would have played events against the other top world golfers. They were not ejected, and joined LIV. They joined LIV and were then ejected to discourage a further deterioration in the level of competition at the top of world golf. LIV has harmed world golf competition. It was higher before they appeared on the scene. It is now lower. The product has been disimproved.


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## Ian_George (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
Are you not understanding the counter argument that the DPWT events, which include LIV players have not been negatively impacted by their presence.
		
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At Golfer level, there's likely far less antipathy! At least, given the legal situation! And likely, personalities play a big part. Otaegui seems to have handled his 'punishment' very diplomatically!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Can you show me the stats that back up that fact.
		
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I would go with common sense.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 17, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Its not a stats thing. Its a fact : PGAT events are missing some top golfers, who, were it not for LIV, would have played events against the other top world golfers. They were not ejected, and joined LIV. They joined LIV and were then ejected to discourage a further deterioration in the level of competition at the top of world golf. *LIV has harmed world golf competition.* It was higher before they appeared on the scene. It is now lower. The product has been disimproved.
		
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No it hasn't, it's harmed a few make weight PGA Tour events, plus a couple of stronger events on their tour - avoidable by the PGAT, please do not lose sight of that - they had the choice regardless of what LIV, or LIV players did.
Come the majors, all those top players will play together, with added rivalry because of where they choose to play their golf - the competition on the world golf stage that matters (the majors) will be there as it was before.

And of course - The Ryder Cup has been affected - again, avoidable. 

The DPWT has seen some events with stronger fields - BMW at Wentworth being the obvious one.

World Golf in the rest of the world has been bolstered by the introduction of LIV - The Asian Tour in particular of course.

World Golf isn't all about the PGA Tour, too many people have lost sight of that over the years.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 17, 2022)

PGA Tours Longest serving sponsor announces ending its partnership with the Honda Classic because its not being elevated

Its an iconic event that Honda has sponsored for 42 years 😳

Thats the problem with this PGAT plan, the events that are not being elevated with smaller purses and weak fields are going to become complete non events..


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## cleveland52 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Lol, it's added millions and millions of dollars to the purses, better securities for players and caddies, and changed the dynamic with the DPWT to protect itself - nothing then.....
		
Click to expand...

A year ago, no one was clamoring for team golf, and no one was trashing the Pgatour, in fact people were saying that the tour was in the best shape that it ever has been. Coming out of Covid golf was at the height of its popularity. Then came LIV golf and players was being poached, lawsuits were being filed, DOJ investigations, golf fractured, and downright hatred being spewed.

Then Phil started trashing the pgatour and GN started telling people that team golf is the future of golf.

Now here we are.....To say that LIV has been good for golf is naive at best.


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			...
The DPWT has seen some events with stronger fields - BMW at Wentworth being the obvious one.
...
		
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Only begrudgingly! The weren't wanted there - and were, in fact, shunned  - by DPWT!


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## AussieKB (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Just remember that it DPWT's 'funny tournament' period, so limited field events abound! And it's that aspect that's making the points allocation 'so far apart'.

I'd be interested to actually see the reasoning behind the (apparently) significant weighting of field numbers over strength of players! I'm sure they've done research, but perhaps not enough. Looking at the first round leaderboard of DPWT Champs though, it's understandable how field numbers might have more influence than would seem warranted compared to ranking - I'm certain that'll become more 'normal' by the final round though.
		
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Have a look at all those well know names at RSM...am sure the cream will rise to the top by the end.


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Have a look at all those well know names at RSM...am sure the cream will rise to the top by the end.

Click to expand...

Agreed! Weighting does seem seem skewed somewhat! It's the 50 player (DPWTC) vs 150+ (RSM) that is the reason! With marginally fewer players than Dubai, no wonder LIV guys are crying out for OWGR points to be allocated!  It will be 'interesting' to compare the effect the slightly different rating method done by Datagolf has.


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## BrianM (Nov 18, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			A year ago, no one was clamoring for team golf, and no one was trashing the Pgatour, in fact people were saying that the tour was in the best shape that it ever has been. Coming out of Covid golf was at the height of its popularity. Then came LIV golf and players was being poached, lawsuits were being filed, DOJ investigations, golf fractured, and downright hatred being spewed.

Then Phil started trashing the pgatour and GN started telling people that team golf is the future of golf.

Now here we are.....To say that LIV has been good for golf is naive at best.
		
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What people?
If anything this statement you’ve put out is naive at best!!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			A year ago, no one was clamoring for team golf, and no one was trashing the Pgatour, in fact people were saying that the tour was in the best shape that it ever has been. Coming out of Covid golf was at the height of its popularity. Then came LIV golf and players was being poached, lawsuits were being filed, DOJ investigations, golf fractured, and downright hatred being spewed.

Then Phil started trashing the pgatour and GN started telling people that team golf is the future of golf.

Now here we are.....To say that LIV has been good for golf is naive at best.
		
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Where is all the hatred from LIV and it's players?

Why are lawsuits being filed?

Why can't golf have a team aspect to it, so it can appeal to a broader market?

And what did Phil say about the PGA Tour, that hasn't turned out to have some basis?


LIV has been bad (I'd prefer the word disruptive but we'll go with bad for now) for the PGA Tour, not golf - are you another one that thinks the PGA Tour have the rights to be numero uno when it comes to pro golf - and be unchallenged - and be unchallenged in that position?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Agreed! Weighting does seem seem skewed somewhat! It's the 50 player (DPWTC) vs 150+ (RSM) that is the reason! With marginally fewer players than Dubai, no wonder LIV guys are crying out for OWGR points to be allocated!  It will be 'interesting' to compare the effect the slightly different rating method done by Datagolf has.
		
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The OWGR system just demonstarates that quantity is better than quality - crystalised by the situation this weekend where the field in Dubai clearly contains more quality that in the RSM. If the solution to improving field rating in events to drive up OWGR points, is to have more players taking part then it's a pretty basic and restrictive system.


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## AussieKB (Nov 18, 2022)

Playing in a stableford tomorrow with a 100 players, wonder how many points are up for grabs.....oh sorry I forgot it's not 72 holes or controlled by the PGAT.


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The OWGR system just demonstarates that quantity is better than quality - crystalised by the situation this weekend where the field in Dubai clearly contains more quality that in the RSM. If the solution to improving field rating in events to drive up OWGR points, is to have more players taking part then it's a pretty basic and restrictive system.
		
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I agree with the 1st sentence and partially agree with the 2nd. There's, apparently, been something around 5 years of analysis involved and I'd expect a lot of comparison to have been done before it was implemented. I'd like to see those results published somewhere, and to see how their decisions were justified I don't totally disagree with their approach, but this week challenges their apparent 'purity' of change - to be solely sum of strokes gained, that favours large fields so much.
Basically it now treats, or at least seems to treat every player as equally likely to win any tournament, whether they be #1 in the world or #200 (which I believe may be a cut-off). I'd think a weighting according to rating range needs to be applied, say top 20, 21-50, 51-100 and 101-200, as the guys at the top of OWGR really ARE more likely to win than those 200+!
I'm sure it's a coincidence that it favours US based Tournaments.


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## AussieKB (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I agree with the 1st sentence and partially agree with the 2nd. There's, apparently, been something around 5 years of analysis involved and I'd expect a lot of comparison to have been done before it was implemented. I'd like to see those results published somewhere, and to see how their decisions were justified I don't totally disagree with their approach, but this week challenges their apparent 'purity' of change - to be solely sum of strokes gained, that favours large fields so much.
Basically it now treats, or at least seems to treat every player as equally likely to win any tournament, whether they be #1 in the world or #200 (which I believe may be a cut-off). I'd think a weighting according to rating range needs to be applied, say top 20, 21-50, 51-100 and 101-200, as the guys at the top of OWGR really ARE more likely to win than those 200+!
I'm sure it's a coincidence that it favours US based Tournaments.
		
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I assume that was a joke about it favors PGAT.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Playing in a stableford tomorrow with a 100 players, wonder how many points are up for grabs.....oh sorry I forgot it's not 72 holes or controlled by the PGAT. 

Click to expand...

From most people, this could be classed a joke.

But, as a caricature LIV fan, I suspect AussieKB will be threatening legal action against the PGA if his 28 points doesn't get him any World Ranking Points.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			I agree with the 1st sentence and partially agree with the 2nd. There's, apparently, been something around 5 years of analysis involved and I'd expect a lot of comparison to have been done before it was implemented. I'd like to see those results published somewhere, and to see how their decisions were justified I don't totally disagree with their approach, but this week challenges their apparent 'purity' of change - to be solely sum of strokes gained, that favours large fields so much.
Basically it now treats, or at least seems to treat every player as equally likely to win any tournament, whether they be #1 in the world or #200 (which I believe may be a cut-off). I'd think a weighting according to rating range needs to be applied, say top 20, 21-50, 51-100 and 101-200, as the guys at the top of OWGR really ARE more likely to win than those 200+!
I'm sure it's a coincidence that it favours US based Tournaments.
		
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It actually didn't favour US based tournaments before - the opposite infact, but, the PGA Tour has all the best players because historically it's attracted them there because of the money available, so inevitably the field strengths are always high. The new system now amplifies this, but it's clearly flawed - as is been seen this weekend.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2022)

I’d be interested to see the detailed analysis done by those saying the points allocation is wrong or flawed. 

Again, we appear to have options being presented as facts.

I don’t know either way or care particularly. Other than it’s amusing how some people simultaneously think the OWGR is pointless yet so important. 

Give the LiV events points. The points allocated will be so small they will be almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things.


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I assume that was a joke about it favors PGAT.
		
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No! If you read the rest, you'll see why that happens!


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



_I’d be interested to see the detailed analysis done by those saying the points allocation is wrong or flawed._

*Again, we appear to have options being presented as facts.*

I don’t know either way or care particularly. Other than it’s amusing how some people simultaneously think the OWGR is pointless yet so important.

Give the LiV events points. The points allocated will be so small they will be almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
		
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Re the Italicised point, OWGR 'boffins' should have that already! I'm simply asking them to justify their method - as would happen with an equivalent academic exercise, seems to be pretty much what they did.
Re the Bold point, Who is presenting which options as facts?
Re the rest, it probably depends on how affects them o their favourites!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’d be interested to see the detailed analysis done by those saying the points allocation is wrong or flawed.

Again, we appear to have options being presented as facts.

I don’t know either way or care particularly. Other than it’s amusing how some people simultaneously think the OWGR is pointless yet so important.

Give the LiV events points. The points allocated will be so small they will be almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
		
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OWGR is now defunct as a professional world golf ranking system - There are players, playing pro tournaments, that it doesn’t rank, so it’s obsolete in that respect.

And yes, under this defunct system, the points awarded to LIV players will be small, but at least the system would be more accurate.

The only place you can play golf and make a worthwhile ranking (in terms of major qualification) now, is on the PGA tour. It’s not just LIV where OWGR points would be insignificant.


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			OWGR is now defunct as a professional world golf ranking system - There are players, playing pro tournaments, that it doesn’t rank, so it’s obsolete in that respect.

And yes, under this defunct system, the points awarded to LIV players will be small, but at least the system would be more accurate.

The only place you can play golf and make a worthwhile ranking (in terms of major qualification) now, is on the PGA tour. It’s not just LIV where OWGR points would be insignificant.
		
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Flawed, perhaps; Defunct, definitely not!
As for the last sentence; DPWT could boost their ratings simply by having larger field sizes!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Flawed, perhaps; Defunct, definitely not!
As for the last sentence; DPWT could boost their ratings simply by having larger field sizes!
		
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I’m sorry, it’s defunct. Dustin Johnson 38th best golfer in the world? 
Nope. 



And as for my last sentence, yes they could, how many do we want in the field - 300?


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## Ian_George (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sorry, it’s defunct. Dustin Johnson 38th best golfer in the world?
Nope.
		
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Flawed then (perhaps)! If it was defunct, there'd be no ranking for him at all! Nor anyone else!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Flawed then (perhaps)! If it was defunct, there'd be no ranking for him at all! Nor anyone else!
		
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Splitting hairs. 

No longer functioning is part of the definition of defunct, and the OWGR no longer functions as an accurate ranking system.,


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## evemccc (Nov 18, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Flawed then (perhaps)! If it was defunct, there'd be no ranking for him at all! Nor anyone else!
		
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Can’t you all agree on ‘not fit for purpose’ and move on?


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## Backsticks (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It actually didn't favour US based tournaments before - the opposite infact, but, the PGA Tour has all the best players because historically it's attracted them there because of the money available, so inevitably the field strengths are always high. The new system now amplifies this, but it's clearly flawed - as is been seen this weekend.
		
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Historically, European, which effectively meant British players, werent good enough to compete in the US.
And, in the hayday of Seve, Langer, etc, the gulf in money wasnt as huge as it became in the Tiger boom, and ET purses also dropped as Europeans moved stateside.


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## PieMan (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sorry, it’s defunct. Dustin Johnson 38th best golfer in the world?
Nope.
		
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Well if he's as bothered about his world ranking as you are, he can always return the Saudi blood money and return to the PGAT........!!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’d be interested to see the detailed analysis done by those saying the points allocation is wrong or flawed.

Again, we appear to have options being presented as facts.

I don’t know either way or care particularly. Other than it’s amusing how some people simultaneously think the OWGR is pointless yet so important.

Give the LiV events points. The points allocated will be so small they will be almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
		
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LOL!.....LOL!

LIV fans be like.....The OWGR is pointless, flawed, unofficial, meaningless but....
                           "Hey! We demand our world ranking points".....LOL!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			OWGR is now defunct as a professional world golf ranking system - There are players, playing pro tournaments, that it doesn’t rank, so it’s obsolete in that respect.

And yes, under this defunct system, the points awarded to LIV players will be small, but at least the system would be more accurate.

The only place you can play golf and make a worthwhile ranking (in terms of major qualification) now, is on the PGA tour. It’s not just LIV where OWGR points would be insignificant.
		
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Sooo, if LIV can't get ranking points, it's defunct?... LOL! such arrogance. This is why they will fail.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 18, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’m sorry, it’s defunct. Dustin Johnson 38th best golfer in the world?
Nope.

DJ is proof, that if you play 3 day events, shotgun starts, 48-man competition, washed up players, never been player, seniors like Bland and Mickelson.......Your world rankings will drop like a ton of bricks.
		
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## Beezerk (Nov 18, 2022)

There's some right ball ends joined the forum recently just to antagonise on this thread


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 18, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Sooo, if LIV can't get ranking points, it's defunct?... LOL! such arrogance. This is why they will fail.
		
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Nothing arrogant about it buddy.

Tell me, when DJ rocks up in another major, Will his odds be longer, shorter, or the same as the golfer nearest to him in the OWGR?


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## Backsticks (Nov 18, 2022)

DJ is one of the best 10 golfers in the world => OWGR obsolete.


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## Backsticks (Nov 18, 2022)

I see Jon Rahm was categorical in his support of my view on this.


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## Backsticks (Nov 18, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Sooo, if LIV can't get ranking points, it's defunct?... LOL! such arrogance. This is why they will fail.
		
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Yes. Clearly is there are world class golfers playing, and the owgr ignores them, it is defunct. OBPWGR. The Official Biased Partial World Golf Rankings.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			DJ is one of the best 10 golfers in the world => OWGR obsolete.
		
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DJ wasn’t one of the 10 best golfers in the world when he retired to play exhibition golf.


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## AussieKB (Nov 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			DJ wasn’t one of the 10 best golfers in the world when he retired to play exhibition golf.
		
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In the eyes of many he was and still is.....sorry if this rocks your boat.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 18, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			In the eyes of many he was and still is.....sorry if this rocks your boat.
		
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Yet, very few of his followers watch him on Youtube.....Shameful. LOL!


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## IainP (Nov 19, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Yet, very few of his followers watch him on Youtube.....Shameful. LOL!
		
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Curious, why the obsession with YouTube?
Who knows, maybe they watched him on tv, or via the website, or via streaming services (viaplay, dazn etc.), or ...

In what part if the world do you play your golf?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2022)

IainP said:



			Curious, why the obsession with YouTube?
Who knows, maybe they watched him on tv, or via the website, or via streaming services (viaplay, dazn etc.), or ...

In what part if the world do you play your golf?
		
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I think it’s more making the point that mainstream media aren’t interested in it.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 19, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			In the eyes of many he was and still is.....sorry if this rocks your boat.
		
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Just because people believe a thing doesn’t make it true.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 19, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Just because people believe a thing doesn’t make it true.
		
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## BiMGuy (Nov 19, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



View attachment 45254

Click to expand...

Again, that’s an opinion.


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## AussieKB (Nov 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			From most people, this could be classed a joke.

But, as a caricature LIV fan, I suspect AussieKB will be threatening legal action against the PGA if his 28 points doesn't get him any World Ranking Points. 

Click to expand...

FYI I had 36 points, winner 44 points off a 27 handicap, no OWGR points for me


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 21, 2022)

John Rahm on OWGR today

"I've gone 2nd, 1st, 4th, 1st and I have not changed my World Ranking. I don't know if that explains what I meant the other day but it should."
For those who missed it he said OWGR is laughable right now. 

OWGR is in a bit of a pickle and in real danger of losing all credability with players and fans. 

It can't be a world system where eventually only players on one tour/country can break into the top 50.

Soon it will be OUSAGR


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			John Rahm on OWGR today

"I've gone 2nd, 1st, 4th, 1st and I have not changed my World Ranking. I don't know if that explains what I meant the other day but it should."
For those who missed it he said OWGR is laughable right now.

OWGR is in a bit of a pickle and in real danger of losing all credability with players and fans.

It can't be a world system where eventually only players on one tour/country can break into the top 50.

Soon it will be OUSAGR
		
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The World Ranking is a joke if LIV players don't get any points, but they desperately want to be part of it, and get points. Part of a system they say is flawed anyway.

I'm sure the new system probably does have issues with it. That doesn't change the fact, however, that LIV does not meet the basic criteria. And, the current system shows it is not overly simple distributing ranking points for players from different tournaments around the world, especially where there are differences in playing field. So, try and throw LIV in there as well in their Micky Mouse (  ) format, just imagine how much more of a mess it would be that it may already be.

Honestly, LIV, just enjoy your millions, enjoy spending more time with your families, and relax...


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## AussieKB (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The World Ranking is a joke if LIV players don't get any points, but they desperately want to be part of it, and get points. Part of a system they say is flawed anyway.

I'm sure the new system probably does have issues with it. That doesn't change the fact, however, that LIV does not meet the basic criteria. And, the current system shows it is not overly simple distributing ranking points for players from different tournaments around the world, especially where there are differences in playing field. So, try and throw LIV in there as well in their Micky Mouse (  ) format, just imagine how much more of a mess it would be that it may already be.

Honestly, LIV, just enjoy your millions, enjoy spending more time with your families, and relax...
		
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The problem with that is when they start leaving players out of the Majors when do the Majors stop being Majors and just another PGAT event ?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 21, 2022)

Pretty clear the the OWGR in its current form is on borrowed time. 

The weekends events have shown how flawed it is, and as we progress that will just become more obvious.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The problem with that is when they start leaving players out of the Majors when do the Majors stop being Majors and just another PGAT event ?
		
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If it becomes an issue, I'd imagine a more likely solution would be to allow the top x LIV players to qualify.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The problem with that is when they start leaving players out of the Majors when do the Majors stop being Majors and just another PGAT event ?
		
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Which LiV players that aren’t already exempt from the majors will improve the quality of the events?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Which LiV players that aren’t already exempt from the majors will improve the quality of the events?
		
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Chase Koepka....?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If it becomes an issue, I'd imagine a more likely solution would be to allow the top x LIV players to qualify.
		
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That’s not the scenario we’re looking at, players who don’t play on the PGA tour won’t rank high enough to qualify for majors - it’s no longer just about LIV players feeling aggrieved.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That’s not the scenario we’re looking at, players who don’t play on the PGA tour won’t rank high enough to qualify for majors - it’s no longer just about LIV players feeling aggrieved.
		
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Not so much an issue, as we already know the best players will end up on the PGAT, unless they end up on LIV. If there was a player on the DP World Tour who was moaning about not getting into a Major because of World Ranking, then I wonder why they don't aim to play on PGA Tour with the other best players in the world. 

I'd also imagine those in charge will continue to review the current system, it is only newly implemented after all.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not so much an issue, as we already know the best players will end up on the PGAT, unless they end up on LIV. If there was a player on the DP World Tour who was moaning about not getting into a Major because of World Ranking, then I wonder why they don't aim to play on PGA Tour with the other best players in the world. 

I'd also imagine those in charge will continue to review the current system, it is only newly implemented after all.
		
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So The Majors just become another PGA tour event then, as stated earlier. (Barring a few invitations, qualifiers etc) 

The PGA don’t have first dibs on world golf, they’ve tried to engineer that obviously - but as I’ve said before, the game is global and should be played on a world stage. Imagine if all the best footballers in the world HAD to play in one country, do you think that would be beneficial to football?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So The Majors just become another PGA tour event then, as stated earlier. (Barring a few invitations, qualifiers etc)

The PGA don’t have first dibs on world golf, they’ve tried to engineer that obviously - but as I’ve said before, the game is global and should be played on a world stage. Imagine if all the best footballers in the world HAD to play in one country, do you think that would be beneficial to football?
		
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I just have zero idea what you are moaning about now.


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## Imurg (Nov 21, 2022)

Leishman, apparently,  has no worries if LIV players are banned from Majors.......


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## evemccc (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I just have zero idea what you are moaning about now.
		
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I have long since thought your posts smack very much of emotion - and of ‘playing the man’ and not the issue


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I have long since thought your posts smack very much of emotion - and of ‘playing the man’ and not the issue
		
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Not at all. I am playing the post, it is just that it is the same man posting them all the time


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The problem with that is when they start leaving players out of the Majors when do the Majors stop being Majors and just another PGAT event ?
		
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They wont be left out.


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Pretty clear the the OWGR in its current form is on borrowed time.

The weekends events have shown how flawed it is, and as we progress that will just become more obvious.
		
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Its already out of service. System metaphorically down until they repair it.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 21, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They wont be left out.
		
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The LiV supporters don’t seem to realise it’s not the Major’s, OWGR people or PGA Tour that might prevent some players from playing in the majors. But the players themselves.


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If it becomes an issue, I'd imagine a more likely solution would be to allow the top x LIV players to qualify.
		
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No, they will just be allowed in by a separate channel or criteria.

But Id say the OWGR will be repaired before that.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Chase Koepka....?
		
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YEP>without Chase Keopka the majors stop being a major......LOL!


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## IainP (Nov 21, 2022)

As owgr opinion seems to be still rumbling on. 

Probably nothing new fact wise here, but some interesting opinions ..
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/

Maybe Davis has a point.. golf used to manage..
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/just-get-rid-of-them-davis-love-iii-wades-into-owgr-debate


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## sweaty sock (Nov 21, 2022)

At risk of agreeing with Davis Love, do the rankings actually really mean anything any more, not many events use them.  Fedex and rolex points are talked about much more  and excepting liv, there are a million other ways to get into most majors.... shock horror Augusta needs them...


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## Imurg (Nov 21, 2022)

sweaty sock said:



			At risk of agreeing with Davis Love, do the rankings actually really mean anything any more, not many events use them.  Fedex and rolex points are talked about much more  and excepting liv, there are a million other ways to get into most majors.... shock horror Augusta needs them...
		
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I'm not sure Augusta does need them really..
It's invitational bar previous winners and it's easy enough for them to keep an eye on the Tour rankings to get the right people there..


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## r0wly86 (Nov 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I'm not sure Augusta does need them really..
It's invitational bar previous winners and it's easy enough for them to keep an eye on the Tour rankings to get the right people there..
		
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Is it invitational? I know they send invites, but there are published qualification criteria like all the other majors


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## Imurg (Nov 21, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Is it invitational? I know they send invites, but there are published qualification criteria like all the other majors
		
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It's been said before that if you do something that the Masters Committee really doesn't like they can not invite you...
I don't think it's ever happened though..
You qualify to be invited.....


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 21, 2022)

Davis Love III on OWGR

"We could just get rid of it. 
It wasn't dreamed up by Jones & Sarazen, there is no history to OWGR because it was created by IMG on the back of a napkin as a way to promote its players. 
There are many ways qualification for majors can be created to get all the worlds best players there without OWGR."

Thoughts?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Davis Love III on OWGR

"We could just get rid of it.
It wasn't dreamed up by Jones & Sarazen, there is no history to OWGR because it was created by IMG on the back of a napkin as a way to promote its players.
There are many ways qualification for majors can be created to get all the worlds best players there without OWGR."

Thoughts?
		
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My thoughts are - a lot of guys are saying it but none of them are producing the solution themselves.

Someone needs to address it - mainly the Majors - but they dont need to hurry. The biggest names are already exempt for another couple of years (and a few indefinitely at The Masters)


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That’s not the scenario we’re looking at, players who don’t play on the PGA tour won’t rank high enough to qualify for majors - it’s no longer just about LIV players feeling aggrieved.
		
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In non of the Majors is qualifying limited purely to OWGR you know.  The current changes to the ranking system were agreed upon before LiV came along to make the system more equitable,  but there do seem to be flaws which I am sure will get ironed out over time.


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## PieMan (Nov 21, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			In non of the Majors is qualifying limited purely to OWGR you know.  The current changes to the ranking system were agreed upon before LiV came along to make the system more equitable,  but there do seem to be flaws which I am sure will get ironed out over time.
		
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Keith Pelley when interviewed yesterday hinted as much.


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## IainP (Nov 21, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Is it invitational? I know they send invites, but there are published qualification criteria like all the other majors
		
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Criteria based invitational....
https://www.augusta.com/masters/qualifications


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			That’s not the scenario we’re looking at, players who don’t play on the PGA tour won’t rank high enough to qualify for majors - it’s no longer just about LIV players feeling aggrieved.
		
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There are more ways than just the OWGR to qualify for a major


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are more ways than just the OWGR to qualify for a major
		
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Post #8945 matey ;-)


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Post #8945 matey ;-)
		
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🤷‍♂️ sorry not sure what that post has to do with what I posted or entry into majors


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤷‍♂️ sorry not sure what that post has to do with what I posted or entry into majors
		
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Well in that post I commented on some of the other qualification methods, so clearly, I'm aware it's not just via OWGR


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 21, 2022)

So Jon Rahm goes  2nd, 1st, 4th, 1st and Cam Smith hasn't been able to score a point for months......
Yet Cam Smith is still ranked 3 and J.R is still ranked 5th.. 

No wonder people are losing faith in OWGR and Rahm thinks its laughable.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So Jon Rahm goes  2nd, 1st, 4th, 1st and Cam Smith hasn't been able to score a point for months......
Yet Cam Smith is still ranked 3 and J.R is still ranked 5th..

No wonder people are losing faith in OWGR and Rahm thinks its laughable.
		
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Don't the rankings still look back over a long period of time, rather than updating purely on each event, like a football league table?

That would seem pretty important in golf, as players don't play every event. It would look sillier if a golfer fell down the ranks simply because they were taking their winter break.

Cameron Smith has obviously had a great year or 2. He played up until the FedEx, and we are now in the quieter period of the season. So, not that surprising he has not plummeted in the rankings


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			So Jon Rahm goes  2nd, 1st, 4th, 1st and Cam Smith hasn't been able to score a point for months......
Yet Cam Smith is still ranked 3 and J.R is still ranked 5th..

No wonder people are losing faith in OWGR and Rahm thinks its laughable.
		
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They have made some changes this year which were supposed to have made things better but if the players on the main tours think there is an issue then I suspect they will look to do something to adjust it


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## cleveland52 (Nov 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Davis Love III on OWGR

"We could just get rid of it.
It wasn't dreamed up by Jones & Sarazen, there is no history to OWGR because it was created by IMG on the back of a napkin as a way to promote its players.
There are many ways qualification for majors can be created to get all the worlds best players there without OWGR."

Thoughts?
		
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Here's the reality of the situation:
1) The OWGR system was fine until LIV told us that it wasn't.
2) The PGAT was the greatest tour on earth until Phil M. told us that it wasn't.
3) 72 hole stroke play was the best way to play tournament golf until 8 months ago GN told us that the 
    Future of golf was 54 hole team play.

Now, the question is: Will the golfing public fall for that nonsense?
Players *CHOSE* to go to an exhibition tour that didn't have point and now want their cake and eat it to.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 21, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Here's the reality of the situation:
1) The OWGR system was fine until LIV told us that it wasn't.
2) The PGAT was the greatest tour on earth until Phil M. told us that it wasn't.
3) 72 hole stroke play was the best way to play tournament golf until 8 months ago GN told us that the
    Future of golf was 54 hole team play.

Now, the question is: Will the golfing public fall for that nonsense?
Players *CHOSE* to go to an exhibition tour that didn't have point and now want their cake and eat it to.
		
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It’s not just the players, as a fan I want these guys in the majors. 

Even Rory and Rahm probably want them in the majors. 

I don’t care where they play golf week to week, I just care that the majors have the best fields in golf to provide the highest level of entertainment as possible and that is now only achieved with the top LIV guys included.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 21, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			It’s not just the players, as a fan I want these guys in the majors.

Even Rory and Rahm probably want them in the majors.

I don’t care where they play golf week to week, I just care that the majors have the best fields in golf to provide the highest level of entertainment as possible and that is now only achieved with the top LIV guys included.
		
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A true golf fan never worries about  who's not there. You can only play who's in front of you. The reason being is that players miss tournaments for all kind of reason......like DJ falling down a flight of stairs, Tiger getting knee surgery, etc.....If the players don't qualify, the tournaments go on and the ones that get misty eyed because a player is missing need to check their emotions.

For the record Rory and Rahn think LIV players should play *if they meet the criteria*. LIV fans seem to conveniently leave off the last part.


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## IainP (Nov 21, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Here's the reality of the situation:
1) The OWGR system was fine until LIV told us that it wasn't.
2) The PGAT was the greatest tour on earth until Phil M. told us that it wasn't.
3) 72 hole stroke play was the best way to play tournament golf until 8 months ago GN told us that the
    Future of golf was 54 hole team play.

Now, the question is: Will the golfing public fall for that nonsense?
Players *CHOSE* to go to an exhibition tour that didn't have point and now want their cake and eat it to.
		
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🥱 'the reality' or _your_ reality?
Alternative view....
1) The OWGR changed its rules in August,  that wasn't anything to do with LIV. The two big names talking about it in last week are nothing to do with LIV. (Rent free?)
2) The PGA Tour was, and is a good tour IMO. But unless in a bubble there was plenty of criticism of aspects of it pre 2022. In fact plenty on this forum. Having essentially one employer to choose from (for the top players) can limit candid comment to a degree.
3) 72 hole regular strokeplay is the best for the majors and a number of other premium events IMO. Many people, including several on this forum, have suggested the monotony of the same thing, week after week after week perhaps isn't what all of the public wants.
For clarity, not saying they want the LIV product either. Time will tell I guess.
If it is so bad, no doubt it will fail and disappear soon, so why the obsession with it?
It's almost as if you want your beloved PGAT (cake) and you want something to keep criticising also (more cake) 😉😁😁


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			For the record Rory and Rahn think LIV players should play *if they meet the criteria*.
		
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Where is that recorded ?


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			A true golf fan never worries about  who's not there. You can only play who's in front of you.
		
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But you have to beat people that the world regards as the best for that major to have credibility. Its only a hypothetical, as they will all be in all majors whatever tour they play in : but if Hovland, Zalatoris, Schauffle, Cantlay, Homa, Finau turned Saudi, and were not in the majors, they wouldnt be majors any more. They would still be reasonably competitive tournaments, and a step above an average LIV one. But not as prestigious a win as a PGAT elevated event as they are today. The asterisk would be beside their names.


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			It’s not just the players, as a fan I want these guys in the majors.
		
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These guys will all be in the majors. Nobody will miss out, whatever tour they play on.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 21, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			A true golf fan never worries about  who's not there. You can only play who's in front of you. The reason being is that players miss tournaments for all kind of reason......like DJ falling down a flight of stairs, Tiger getting knee surgery, etc.....If the players don't qualify, the tournaments go on and the ones that get misty eyed because a player is missing need to check their emotions.

For the record Rory and Rahn think LIV players should play *if they meet the criteria*. LIV fans seem to conveniently leave off the last part.
		
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A true golf fan or a traditional golf fan? 

I don’t think injuries and years out are an equal argument to LIV either. Not allowing a selected group of players to play in a major due to what league they play their golf in is entirely different. 

A lot of the guys on LIV who are currently qualified are so because they have done well in past majors, we’re not talking 1-2 guys either, but off the top of my head maybe 7+at this point. They would be actively playing, fit to participate and yet simply not allowed by the powers that control qualification. 

Rory might not care who is in the field he beats but as fans we know there’s a good 8 seriously talented guys missing that could also be up there. 

I’ll stress that I am aware these guys haven’t lost their ability to play majors yet. And I accept that guys entering LIV without already having major exemptions in place shouldn’t qualify if undeserved.

Also - this is only for now. In 5 years time some of them might not be playing strong enough golf to be there and that’s fine (Bryson springs to mind). There’s only a few guys who will carry exemptions past 2030 - and mostly in the masters. But while they qualify they should be allowed to play and in the interim years the whole situation might be cleared up between the PGA, LIV and major qualification


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

If McIroy were to win one of the four next year, and LIV golfers arent there, or even if the only ones there are those with access as recent major winners, then he knows, that we wouldnt regard it as a real major. He would be still stuck on four. He wants them all there, LIV or not - because he doesnt want to lose a single chance to win a bona fide major.


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## Backsticks (Nov 21, 2022)

The situation has to be cleared up in the next month, for Masters invitations. Announcement fixing the owgr, or back door fix to give direct entry to top 10 LIVers if not already directly eligible or something like that.
OWGR needs to fix itself and be relevant again.


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## Dando (Nov 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If McIroy were to win one of the four next year, and LIV golfers arent there, or even if the only ones there are those with access as recent major winners, then he knows, that we wouldnt regard it as a real major. He would be still stuck on four. He wants them all there, LIV or not - because he doesnt want to lose a single chance to win a bona fide major.
		
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If Rory wins “one of the four” next year then he’ll have 5 majors regardless of the field.

Who’s the “we” who wouldn’t regard it as a real major?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			If McIroy were to win one of the four next year, and LIV golfers arent there, or even if the only ones there are those with access as recent major winners, then he knows, that we wouldnt regard it as a real major. He would be still stuck on four. He wants them all there, LIV or not - because he doesnt want to lose a single chance to win a bona fide major.
		
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Well, that is rubbish. YOU might not regard it as a real major, but I'm sure Rory won't care one bit what Backsticks thinks.

If you think that low of a win in a Major though, I guess every single other event win, and in particular LIV wins, are virtually meaningless. I suppose anyone who won a Major when Tiger was out injured is not considered to have won a major as well?


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## AussieKB (Nov 22, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			YEP>without Chase Keopka the majors stop being a major......LOL!
		
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Or maybe Min-Gyu Cho,  Zander Lombard,  Scott Vincent or Matt Ford all who played in last Open....
have you heard of them ? I haven't, but hey they look good to play in the PGAT Majors....


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

Including Smith, 20% of the top 20 players in the last Major - were LIV players, in total they made up 13% of the field.

There is absolutely no basis to any argument that the Majors are not diminished if they don't play.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Including Smith, 20% of the top 20 players in the last Major - were LIV players, in total they made up 13% of the field.

There is absolutely no basis to any argument that the Majors are not diminished if they don't play.
		
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Which of those 20% will not play in the Majors next year. I know it has been asked a thousand times, but I don't recall seeing an answer


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which of those 20% will not play in the Majors next year. I know it has been asked a thousand times, but I don't recall seeing an answer
		
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The ones that don't meet the qualifying criteria, which applies to any golfers hoping to get a spot.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The ones that don't meet the qualifying criteria, which applies to any golfers hoping to get a spot.
		
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Names please. I already understand that people who don't meet qualify criteria do not play. That is blindingly obvious.


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## Backsticks (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, that is rubbish. YOU might not regard it as a real major, but I'm sure Rory won't care one bit what Backsticks thinks.

If you think that low of a win in a Major though, I guess every single other event win, and in particular LIV wins, are virtually meaningless. I suppose anyone who won a Major when Tiger was out injured is not considered to have won a major as well?
		
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True, he wont care what I think. But he surely wants to win a real major, not a partial one.
A player or two missing a major because they trip over a football, or their wife is having a child is one thing. But a bunch of top golfers not being in them because of a commercial spat, would make those tournaments instantly, no longer majors. If Liv entices more to defect, you could conceivably have 20 good golfers playing LIV but excluded from the majors. Majors have to have everybody. That is the point.
Its an interesting discussion, but ultimately moot. They will all be there. No major wants to shoot itself in the head.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which of those 20% will not play in the Majors next year. I know it has been asked a thousand times, but I don't recall seeing an answer
		
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And which that aren’t exempt would be considered a loss to the events?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Names please. I already understand that people who don't meet qualify criteria do not play. That is blindingly obvious.
		
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Off the top of my head, Sadom Kaewkanjana would probably miss out.


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## AussieKB (Nov 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			And which that aren’t exempt would be considered a loss to the events?
		
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If you cannot work that out on your own, then there is no point continuing this discussion.


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## Dando (Nov 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			True, he wont care what I think. But he surely wants to win a real major, not a partial one.
A player or two missing a major because they trip over a football, or their wife is having a child is one thing. But a bunch of top golfers not being in them because of a commercial spat, would make those tournaments instantly, no longer majors. If Liv entices more to defect, you could conceivably have 20 good golfers playing LIV but excluded from the majors. Majors have to have everybody. That is the point.
Its an interesting discussion, but ultimately moot. They will all be there. No major wants to shoot itself in the head.
		
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It will be a “real major”


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Including Smith, 20% of the top 20 players in the last Major - were LIV players, in total they made up 13% of the field.

There is absolutely no basis to any argument that the Majors are not diminished if they don't play.
		
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If LiV players wish to enter next year's open championship, assuming the R&A are true to their word (and I expect them to be), there will be no one stopping them. They may have to go through pre-qualifying as anyone not already qualified will have to do. The criteria for such events are pretty well known so if LiV players don't meet those criteria,  who is to blame?   In time LiV may become a challenge to the other major tours but presently that is far from clear after just 8 events,  I don't see any of the majors significantly changing the criteria for entry until 2024 at the earliest and then only if more significantly more of the top players move to LiV.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 22, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			If you cannot work that out on your own, then there is no point continuing this discussion.
		
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Classic answer. At least Mel picked a random name.

The answer is none of them.


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## PieMan (Nov 22, 2022)

So if Rory is still world numero uno by the time the Masters comes around, but he misses it due to injury or illness, I'm assuming the tournament is diminished; and the winner won't have won a real major?


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## Backsticks (Nov 22, 2022)

PieMan said:



			So if Rory is still world numero uno by the time the Masters comes around, but he misses it due to injury or illness, I'm assuming the tournament is diminished; and the winner won't have won a real major?
		
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No, it isnt diminished. As explained above.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			If LiV players wish to enter next year's open championship, assuming the R&A are true to their word (and I expect them to be), there will be no one stopping them. They may have to go through pre-qualifying as anyone not already qualified will have to do. The criteria for such events are pretty well known so if LiV players don't meet those criteria,  who is to blame?   In time LiV may become a challenge to the other major tours but presently that is far from clear after just 8 events,  I don't see any of the majors significantly changing the criteria for entry until 2024 at the earliest and then only if more significantly more of the top players move to LiV.
		
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The majors next year won’t be diminished- but longer term they will if the best players coming through LIV can’t get access to them. Same applies to all the other tours given the new OWGR system, players just won’t stand out as much outside of the PGA tour. 
Like Backsticks has commented though, the Majors are all about making money for their organisations, so the best players in the world will always get in, regardless of where they play.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Off the top of my head, Sadom Kaewkanjana would probably miss out.
		
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That clearly does not answer my question.

I asked which of the 20% of LIV players that made up the top 20 would not be present at Majors. You answered Sadom Kaewkanjana. When was he ever in the top 20!? Looking at the rankings site, at best I get him up at World Number 94 in his lifetime.

And, in respect to Sadom Kaewkanjana, I doubt the organisers and sponsors of each Major, in general, will lose too much sleep if he does not play.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That clearly does not answer my question.

I asked which of the 20% of LIV players that made up the top 20 would not be present at Majors. You answered Sadom Kaewkanjana. When was he ever in the top 20!? Looking at the rankings site, at best I get him up at World Number 94 in his lifetime.

And, in respect to Sadom Kaewkanjana, I doubt the organisers and sponsors of each Major, in general, will lose too much sleep if he does not play.
		
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Kaewkanjana finished T11, well inside the top 20.
Because of his ranking, he’s unlikely to qualify for any majors next year. 

I’ve answered every question you’ve asked. May I ask you to go back and read my posts so that you can understand them, rather than trying to facilitate some meaningless argument.
Thank you.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Kaewkanjana finished T11, well inside the top 20.
Because of his ranking, he’s unlikely to qualify for any majors next year.

I’ve answered every question you’ve asked. May I ask you to go back and read my posts so that you can understand them, rather than trying to facilitate some meaningless argument.
Thank you.
		
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Sorry if I have missed something here,  but you appear to be suggesting that not having Kaewkanjana qualify for the majors next year,  will diminish them. Seriously! he's hardly been pushing up trees in either the LiV events or the Asian Tour this year.  As far as I am aware finishing in the top 20 at the open has never met the criteria for entry in the following majors.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Sorry if I have missed something here,  but you appear to be suggesting that not having Kaewkanjana qualify for the majors next year,  will diminish them. Seriously! he's hardly been pushing up trees in either the LiV events or the Asian Tour this year.  As far as I am aware finishing in the top 20 at the open has never met the criteria for entry in the following majors.
		
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No I’m not, not at all. 

I’m saying that LIV players made a significant contribution to the top end of the leaderboard at The Open, and the majors would be diminished if they weren’t playing - for whatever reason. 

Swango asked which one of those players might not appear in a major this year, and I answered with Kaewkanjana. 

There’s nothing more to it than that. 

If you want to ‘spin’ it into something else, feel free.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No I’m not, not at all.

I’m saying that LIV players made a significant contribution to the top end of the leaderboard at The Open, and the majors would be diminished if they weren’t playing - for whatever reason.

Swango asked which one of those players might not appear in a major this year, and I answered with Kaewkanjana.

There’s nothing more to it than that.

If you want to ‘spin’ it into something else, feel free.
		
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You've completely lost me, you say "that LIV players made a significant contribution to the top end of the leaderboard at The Open, and the majors would be diminished if they weren’t playing - for whatever reason", and you answer "Kaewkanjana" to the question which one of those players might not appear next year.  Again I'll ask how will not having Kaewkanjana in the 2023 field diminish the open in any way.  The truth is it would also have not diminished the field had he not qualified this tear either as we could have had no inkling that he would even make the cut.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			You've completely lost me, you say "that LIV players made a significant contribution to the top end of the leaderboard at The Open, and the majors would be diminished if they weren’t playing - for whatever reason", and you answer "Kaewkanjana" to the question which one of those players might not appear next year.  Again I'll ask how will not having Kaewkanjana in the 2023 field diminish the open in any way.  The truth is it would also have not diminished the field had he not qualified this tear either as we could have had no inkling that he would even make the cut.
		
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It’s BLINDINGLY obvious that I’m referring to a situation where all those players were absent - a hypothetical situation that will not happen, although only The Open so far have confirmed this. 

For the absence of doubt, I’m pointing out that having the top players involved in majors is vital to not only their success, but their credibility. 

If you still don’t get my point, let me know and I’ll block you. I’ve better things to do with my time than answer stupid questions.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Kaewkanjana finished T11, well inside the top 20.
Because of his ranking, he’s unlikely to qualify for any majors next year.

I’ve answered every question you’ve asked. May I ask you to go back and read my posts so that you can understand them, rather than trying to facilitate some meaningless argument.
Thank you.
		
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Apologies than, as I interpreted your post as being the Top 20 in the world rankings at the last Major. Easy mistake to make, as the topic as largely been focused around World Rankings, and your post did not specifically highlight you meant the top 20 placings, rather than rankings, at the last Major.

However, I did answer your question that I don't think the guy would be well missed if he doesn't make the next one. What are the usual qualifying criteria for upcoming Majors anyway? Do top x placings in last Majors normally get qualification in upcoming ones?


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It’s BLINDINGLY obvious that I’m referring to a situation where all those players were absent - a hypothetical situation that will not happen, although only The Open so far have confirmed this.

For the absence of doubt, I’m pointing out that having the top players involved in majors is vital to not only their success, but their credibility.

If you still don’t get my point, let me know and I’ll block you. I’ve better things to do with my time than answer stupid questions.
		
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It's the referencing of Kaewkanjana that confused me,  but I get your point now and to a degree, I agree with you. Though I feel Majors will only be diminished going forward if they change their criteria to disqualify LiV players or substantially more of the top 50 players move to LiV and currently I see no sign of either of those happening.


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## evemccc (Nov 22, 2022)

This will never happen of course but I would like to see a situation where the two opens have many more qualifying spots - in fact, why not qualifying for everyone except past champions (maybe 10 year exemption)?

LIV, PGA Tour, DP World Tour, Jamega Tour, Club Pro, Scratch golfer — everyone would have an equal chance to perform over two or three rounds

Sponsors may not like this but it would have a couple of benefits IMO. It would be true to the ethos of the Open; it would make regional and final qualifying events incredibly exciting; it would increase the club / teaching pros likelihood of entry and it would be very fair. It would be all down to how a scratch golfer / elite tour pro performs over two or three rounds of golf —— and it lessens the importance of having millionaire backers and sponsors behind you in order to make it on tour, in order to get a decent ranking and gain automatic entry……and it would save a lot of trouble for the OWGR and save another 10000 pages of this thread 🤣😜


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			This will never happen of course but I would like to see a situation where the two opens have many more qualifying spots - in fact, why not qualifying for everyone except past champions (maybe 10 year exemption)?

LIV, PGA Tour, DP World Tour, Jamega Tour, Club Pro, Scratch golfer — everyone would have an equal chance to perform over two or three rounds

Sponsors may not like this but it would have a couple of benefits IMO. It would be true to the ethos of the Open; it would make regional and final qualifying events incredibly exciting; it would increase the club / teaching pros likelihood of entry and it would be very fair. It would be all down to how a scratch golfer / elite tour pro performs over two or three rounds of golf —— and it lessens the importance of having millionaire backers and sponsors behind you in order to make it on tour, in order to get a decent ranking and gain automatic entry……and it would save a lot of trouble for the OWGR and save another 10000 pages of this thread 🤣😜
		
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The debate has been up to now has been about whether the Majors would be diminished by not having a handful of the top 50 playing in it,  and you are proposing taking the risk that a very large number would not qualify, I'm not sure many will agree with you.  Also it would not solve a problem for OWGR unless you propose unlimited numbers in the qualifying stages,  which would certainly make it interesting though not in a good way in my view.


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## PieMan (Nov 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			No, it isnt diminished. As explained above.
		
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Ah OK. But if LIV players are excluded because they've chosen to line their pockets due to greed then the majors are diminished?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 22, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Ah OK. But if LIV players are excluded because they've chosen to line their pockets due to greed then the majors are diminished? 

Click to expand...

If the LIV players did play in the Majors, I'd imagine the Majors would feel diminished to those LIV players anyway. After all, they are playing for peanuts. I'm sure most of them won't get out of bed in the morning unless they've the chance to win over £3-4 million.  And, if they did it for the love of the game, their caddies would not join them. Slavery was abolished some time ago.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If the LIV players did play in the Majors, I'd imagine the Majors would feel diminished to those LIV players anyway. After all, they are playing for peanuts. I'm sure most of them won't get out of bed in the morning unless they've the chance to win over £3-4 million.  And, if they did it for the love of the game, their caddies would not join them. Slavery was abolished some time ago. 

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I’m surprised any of the LiV players and caddies want to play in other events given how poorly they have been treated in the past.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 22, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Ah OK. But if LIV players are excluded because they've chosen to line their pockets due to greed then the majors are diminished? 

Click to expand...

The majors will not be diminished if LIV player weren't there, they would be enhanced. LIV player will distract from the tournament.
Just look at this thread.


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## BrianM (Nov 22, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The majors will not be diminished if LIV player weren't there, they would be enhanced. LIV player will distract from the tournament.
Just look at this thread.
		
Click to expand...

You seriously talk some drivel 😂😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The majors will not be diminished if LIV player weren't there, they would be enhanced. LIV player will distract from the tournament.
Just look at this thread.
		
Click to expand...

Getting a bit silly 

Majors are always enhanced with the best players in the game playing 

All the top players on LIV will still be playing in the majors for a number of years yet 

The only “distraction” will be if Greg Norman starts to act up and attempt to take the limelight away - hence why he was asked not to turn up at The Open 

And that’s how it will continue - the focus should always be on the major , if anyone looks to use the major as a platform to continue any nonsense then the major body will react


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## cleveland52 (Nov 22, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting a bit silly

Majors are always enhanced with the best players in the game playing
bout OWGR points.....
All the top players on LIV will still be playing in the majors for a number of years yet

The only “distraction” will be if Greg Norman starts to act up and attempt to take the limelight away - hence why he was asked not to turn up at The Open

And that’s how it will continue - the focus should always be on the major , if anyone looks to use the major as a platform to continue any nonsense then the major body will react
		
Click to expand...

Unless Ian Poulter shows up with his Liv gear on or Phil shows up trying to recruit players or LIV players playing the victim b***and moaning about their lack of OWGR points. Spot on about GN.

Nah, that will never happen, right !?!


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## cleveland52 (Nov 22, 2022)

BrianM said:



*You seriously talk some drivel* 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

LOL!......OK


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## BrianM (Nov 22, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			LOL!......OK
		
Click to expand...

I see you’ve deleted most of your reply….
Just because you don’t like something, you can still have a reasoned debate with constructive criticism, yes there’s flaws in LIV, but there is with the PGA and DPWT.
To not have players from LIV, I’m aware some are still eligible regardless, will devalue the Majors, Rory, Rahm, Scheffler will all want to beat the very best.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 22, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I see you’ve deleted most of your reply….
Just because you don’t like something, you can still have a reasoned debate with constructive criticism, yes there’s flaws in LIV, but there is with the PGA and DPWT.
To not have players from LIV, I’m aware some are still eligible regardless, will devalue the Majors, Rory, Rahm, Scheffler will all want to beat the very best.
		
Click to expand...

_'I'm sure you're right....._


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## Slab (Nov 23, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Unless Ian Poulter shows up with his Liv gear on or Phil shows up trying to recruit players or LIV players playing the victim b***and moaning about their lack of OWGR points. Spot on about GN.

Nah, that will never happen, right !?!
		
Click to expand...

I'm not pro or anti liv but since its OK for a player to turn up at The Open with a large print PGAT golf shirt and another who had MLB on his, then its clearly ok to have names of other leagues/tours on their clothing at a Major, so I'd have no issue with a player sporting LIV on theirs


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## Backsticks (Nov 23, 2022)

Slab said:



			I'm not pro or anti liv but since its OK for a player to turn up at The Open with a large print PGAT golf shirt and another who had MLB on his, then its clearly ok to have names of other leagues/tours on their clothing at a Major, so I'd have no issue with a player sporting LIV on theirs
		
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Yes, thats perfectly OK. Golfers are advert sandwich board men anyway.
The Open is above all tours and neither professional nor amateur. Open to all. As long as you are one of the worlds hest golfers. US Open the same. The Master is even more so its own republic of independence and sits atop the mount Olympus of golf guarding the sacred flame of Bob Jones. The USPGA is a little different from the other three, and still has an affiliation to its offspring, the PGAT. But it knows what side its bread is buttered, and how it will have to play ball to not risk its most fragile nature of the four majors. Advertising another tour is fine 8n the majors.
Not so on the World Tour. I think DP does have a right to forbid competitor advertising in its events. Because it is commercial competition.


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## AussieKB (Nov 23, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, thats perfectly OK. Golfers are advert sandwich board men anyway.
The Open is above all tours and neither professional nor amateur. Open to all. As long as you are one of the worlds hest golfers. US Open the same. The Master is even more so its own republic of independence and sits atop the mount Olympus of golf guarding the sacred flame of Bob Jones. The USPGA is a little different from the other three, and still has an affiliation to its offspring, the PGAT. But it knows what side its bread is buttered, and how it will have to play ball to not risk its most fragile nature of the four majors. Advertising another tour is fine 8n the majors.
Not so on the World Tour. I think DP does have a right to forbid competitor advertising in its events. Because it is commercial competition.
		
Click to expand...

How does the DP Tour ban a Titliest logo but allows a Ping logo or any other LIV PGA or MLB ?


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## Backsticks (Nov 23, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			How does the DP Tour ban a Titliest logo but allows a Ping logo or any other LIV PGA or MLB ?
		
Click to expand...

Ban any advertising of LIV. It has control of its product. Ic can choose to do so, even if it cannot prevent LIV players from competing just at the moment.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 23, 2022)

Slab said:



			I'm not pro or anti liv but since its OK for a player to turn up at The Open with a large print PGAT golf shirt and another who had MLB on his, then its clearly ok to have names of other leagues/tours on their clothing at a Major, so I'd have no issue with a player sporting LIV on theirs
		
Click to expand...

I guess the difference is that many people see the LIV slogan as an F U PGA Tour message, or indeed F U All Other Tours. I appreciate LIV fans can see this, but others will.

The PGA Logo, I am sure, never was seen as an antagonising message, not even to European Tour fans when players were drifting across to PGA


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2022)

The DP Tour asked Liv players when playing in DP events not to wear emblems or LIV items - seems a fair request to ask players not to advertise a “rival” tour 

The problem is Liv players are required to wear LIV attire when at events away from LIV 

I believe just Poulter at DP events wore LIV emblems


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## AussieKB (Nov 23, 2022)

So what happens when an event is sponsored by Taylor Made ? or similar......
I remember the USA at the Olympics were sponsored by Adidas and expected Michael Jordan to wear there logo.....
did not happen, at the Medal presentation he had the USA flag over his shoulder covering it, I thought it
was quite funny, not sure how Adidas took it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So what happens when an event is sponsored by Taylor Made ? or similar......
I remember the USA at the Olympics were sponsored by Adidas and expected Michael Jordan to wear there logo.....
did not happen, at the Medal presentation he had the USA flag over his shoulder covering it, I thought it
was quite funny, not sure how Adidas took it.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t believe manufacturers sponser events but I’m not sure what the issue would be ?


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## IainP (Nov 23, 2022)

Not sure which is the right thread for what any more!
Fitzpatrick receives more for 'clicks' than he did for winning the US Open 🤔

And three bonus rewards added.
Eddie having his say...strange times 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/criminal-in-this-day-and-age-pepperell-on-matsuyama-dollar2m-bonus


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 23, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			Here's the reality of the situation:
1) The OWGR system was fine until LIV told us that it wasn't.
2) The PGAT was the greatest tour on earth until Phil M. told us that it wasn't.
3) 72 hole stroke play was the best way to play tournament golf until 8 months ago GN told us that the
    Future of golf was 54 hole team play.

Now, the question is: Will the golfing public fall for that nonsense?
Players *CHOSE* to go to an exhibition tour that didn't have point and now want their cake and eat it to.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but the OWGR change has nothing to do with Liv. 

The changes were passed before Liv even played its 1st event. 

The players are saying it doesn't work because of the comparison of a DP World Tour event v a PGA Tour event.


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## Backsticks (Nov 23, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Sorry if this has already been mentioned but the OWGR change has nothing to do with Liv.

The changes were passed before Liv even played its 1st event.

The players are saying it doesn't work because of the comparison of a DP World Tour event v a PGA Tour event.
		
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. Many players are saying it doesnt work because of the comparison of a Saudi event and a PGAT event.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 24, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not entirely true. Many players are saying it doesnt work because of the comparison of a Saudi event and a PGAT event.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever, the common theme here is it doesn't work whichever way you look at it
It survives on its reputation for showing an accurate representation of the worlds leading golfers which right now clearly a large part of the pro golfers world don't think it does.

Simply put, some no mark PGA Tour Event with literally no top players in it getting significantly more points than the DP Tour Championship with a strong field of top ranked golfers.

Also your no 5 golfer has 5 amazing consecutive results including 2 wins and his ranking doesn't move yet the no 3 golfer above him hasnt picked up a point for 4 months and also hasn't moved.

This all seems pretty obvious stuff that is not working under its current guidelines.
If it loses its air of credability its finished because players will get to no1 and it won't mean anything

Seems clear they need to address the PGA Tour bias and give the other tours more points nearer to what they got before.
For example an Asian tour event win for one of their bigger events used to get 16pts for the win, it now gets 4pts.

Also need to solve the Liv problem as too many top players are on that tour that will discredit their rankings if their not earning points in some way.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 24, 2022)

Should we start a separate thread about the World Ranking system? The LIV issue regarding world rankings has simply become a side show, now that we are questioning the system in its entirety. It becomes completely pointless trying to discuss how it fits in with LIV, if we think the system is flawed anyway. Even if LIV players were given points, the conversation would simply shift to them not getting enough or too much in a flawed system.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Should we start a separate thread about the World Ranking system? The LIV issue regarding world rankings has simply become a side show, now that we are questioning the system in its entirety. It becomes completely pointless trying to discuss how it fits in with LIV, if we think the system is flawed anyway. Even if LIV players were given points, the conversation would simply shift to them not getting enough or too much in a flawed system.
		
Click to expand...

If OWGR discussion is removed from this thread what will the anti-LIV guys actually have to talk about?


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## AussieKB (Nov 24, 2022)

We have the OZ PGA Championship on at the moment, Cam Smith playing with Adam Scott and no fisticuffs.....teed off early and they were welcomed with a large crowd for our standards.

It was great, said Scott.

Think most of us out here would love to see them in the last group on Sunday, hopefully Cam can manage 4 days.


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## AussieKB (Nov 24, 2022)

https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/ne...welcome-cam-home-588294?eid=87&edate=20221124


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## Swango1980 (Nov 24, 2022)

Should we start a separate thread about the OZ PGA Championship? I assume it is not a LIV event


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## JamesR (Nov 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Should we start a separate thread about the OZ PGA Championship? I assume it is not a LIV event 

Click to expand...

I think a whole new forum would be better


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## Imurg (Nov 24, 2022)

Have they signed Ronaldo yet..


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## IainP (Nov 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Should we start a separate thread about the OZ PGA Championship? I assume it is not a LIV event 

Click to expand...

For me,  all actual golf on the Professional Golf thread 👍

But now you've raised it 😁, have we heard if those players associated with liv have been treated the same as rest of players?  Is only co-sanctioned by DPWT so less sway I assume.

That said, I didn't hear much about DPWT tour championship in this regard, had Pelley & co softened their approach after receiving so much criticism about Valdarama?


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## Beezerk (Nov 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Should we start a separate thread about the OZ PGA Championship? I assume it is not a LIV event 

Click to expand...

That’s reminds me, almost 3 years exactly 🥲


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 24, 2022)

IainP said:



			For me,  all actual golf on the Professional Golf thread 👍

But now you've raised it 😁, have we heard if those players associated with liv have been treated the same as rest of players?  Is only co-sanctioned by DPWT so less sway I assume.

That said, I didn't hear much about DPWT tour championship in this regard, had Pelley & co softened their approach after receiving so much criticism about Valdarama?
		
Click to expand...


The bits I’ve seen suggest all the players have been well received in Australia, but no idea if the LIV guys have been ignored on the TV coverage which we’ve sadly seen elsewhere. 

Back to LIV, think I read they’ve sold over 35,000 tickets for the Australian event -if so, there’s obviously an appetite for it over there.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The bits I’ve seen suggest all the players have been well received in Australia, but no idea if the LIV guys have been ignored on the TV coverage which we’ve sadly seen elsewhere.

Back to LIV, think I read they’ve sold over 35,000 tickets for the Australian event -if so, there’s obviously an appetite for it over there.
		
Click to expand...

Similar to matches at the Qatar World Cup, were it was confirmed the attandance at one match was nearly 42,000. I was impressed, given there seemed to be a lot of empty seats and the capacity was only 40,000 (similar reports at other matches).

Makes you wonder how much truth lies behind such quoted figures at times...


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## garyinderry (Nov 24, 2022)

Did the whole LIV crew head out to Australia in an effort to grow the game?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 24, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Did the whole LIV crew head out to Australia in an effort to grow the game?
		
Click to expand...

Surly, the Australian PGA tournament will be diminished because all of the LIV players are not there.....


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 24, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Similar to matches at the Qatar World Cup, were it was confirmed the attandance at one match was nearly 42,000. I was impressed, given there seemed to be a lot of empty seats and the capacity was only 40,000 (similar reports at other matches).

Makes you wonder how much truth lies behind such quoted figures at times...
		
Click to expand...


In terms of football, attendance figures are always in relation to the number of tickets sold, not the actual Matchday attendance. 

There’ll be loads at the World Cup that go unused, particularly for the lower key games.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 24, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			In terms of football, attendance figures are always in relation to the number of tickets sold, not the actual Matchday attendance.

There’ll be loads at the World Cup that go unused, particularly for the lower key games.
		
Click to expand...

As I said, similar to LIV then


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## AussieKB (Nov 24, 2022)

Maybe this shows that three tours can play together ?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Maybe this shows that three tours can play together ?
		
Click to expand...

I think what we are seeing currently is an indication of the way golf will go - all the tours can host their own premium events in which (hopefully) all players will have the option to participate in, spread across the calendar year, and across the globe.

It's actually ridiculous that we have 4 majors in golf, 3 of them in one country, and condensed into a 4 month period of the year. 

Perhaps it's time for an indepent body in golf, to bang some heads together and secure it's future.


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

I feel LIV has failed since Smith was recruited. It could end up a blind alley and just petre away if it cannot open the pipeline again.
PGAT has gained the upper hand without question, as it has held on to the bulk of the jewels. And may be able to win the war by just sitting it out now. Unless another half dozen from the top 30 jump, LIV will just wind itself out, being an actual seniors tour and not just semi-champions tour that it is today.


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## AussieKB (Nov 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I feel LIV has failed since Smith was recruited. It could end up a blind alley and just petre away if it cannot open the pipeline again.
PGAT has gained the upper hand without question, as it has held on to the bulk of the jewels. And may be able to win the war by just sitting it out now. Unless another half dozen from the top 30 jump, LIV will just wind itself out, being an actual seniors tour and not just semi-champions tour that it is today.
		
Click to expand...

I see it differently, have just been watching players from all three tours enjoying their golf, a great turnout of spectators for Brisbane, so for me it is a win win win situation and great to see top players competing here again.


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I see it differently, have just been watching players from all three tours enjoying their golf, a great turnout of spectators for Brisbane, so for me it is a win win win situation and great to see top players competing here again.
		
Click to expand...

Thats only on a micro level. Sure, this tournament is better itself for the inclusion. But the consequences of that on a regular basis, is a weaker PGAT, and so weaker golf overall, if top forces are split.
It doesnt follow that being good today, means repeating it in the long term is good. The general opinion, LIVists aside, is that it would be bad.


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## AussieKB (Nov 25, 2022)

I'm old enough to remember pro golf being played all over the UK, don't remember to many people complaining about the diluted strength of the PGAT, plus how many actual weeks did all the top players turn up for events in the US, not counting the Majors, Players and Memorial ?

I would love to see top golf being played World wide for the enjoyment of all, I can understand if your a yank and you believe you own the game, time for other Nations to have at least one event surely, if only every few years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I think what we are seeing currently is an indication of the way golf will go - *all the tours can host their own premium events in which (hopefully) all players will have the option to participate in, spread across the calendar year, and across the globe.*

It's actually ridiculous that we have 4 majors in golf, 3 of them in one country, and condensed into a 4 month period of the year.

Perhaps it's time for an indepent body in golf, to bang some heads together and secure it's future.
		
Click to expand...

So you think LIV will change their model to allow players to just turn up for their “premium” events and not had to follow the LIV mantra ? 

And which LIV events are “premium” ?

And the majors are played where they are because that’s the biggest markets for golf - even LIV know that hence why 80% will be in the US

Events happen all over the globe 12 months of the year already and they did before LIV came along - they haven’t added anything new beyond a number of rich comps


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I'm old enough to remember pro golf being played all over the UK, don't remember to many people complaining about the diluted strength of the PGAT, plus how many actual weeks did all the top players turn up for events in the US, not counting the Majors, Players and Memorial ?

I would love to see top golf being played World wide for the enjoyment of all, I can understand if your a yank and you believe you own the game, time for other Nations to have at least one event surely, if only every few years.
		
Click to expand...

For Europeans, the best place for all top golf to be played is in the US. Prime time evening TV. When it is anywhere else, it suits far few to see it.
The number of people at a tournament is miniscule compared to the TV audience, which is the one that matters.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I see it differently, have just been watching players from all three tours enjoying their golf, a great turnout of spectators for Brisbane, so for me it is a win win win situation and great to see top players competing here again.
		
Click to expand...

Why are you discussing the Australian PGA on this thread,  it has zero relevance.


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## JamesR (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			In terms of football, attendance figures are always in relation to the number of tickets sold, not the actual Matchday attendance.

There’ll be loads at the World Cup that go unused, particularly for the lower key games.
		
Click to expand...

At world cups the stadia are normally rammed


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## AussieKB (Nov 25, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Why are you discussing the Australian PGA on this thread,  it has zero relevance.
		
Click to expand...

I did say all three tours....that includes LIV.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I see it differently, have just been watching players *from all three tours enjoying their golf,* a great turnout of spectators for Brisbane, so for me it is a win win win situation and great to see top players competing here again.
		
Click to expand...

Which events, where golfers compete from different tours, do golfers not enjoy it? Even if LIV players are involved?

You are also referring to the Australian PGA Championship. Having had a quick look through the field, it appears 90% are from Australia, and the only names I seemed to recognise were Smith, Scott, Ogilvy, Leishman, Lewis and Howell. So, it is not exactly a stellar field, it seems to be the dort of field I'd expect from the Australian PGA Championship.

If the Irish Open had McIlroy, Lowry, Harrington, Clark and McDowell, and no other of the worlds leading golfers, I am sure the golfers would still enjoy it, and the fans would love it and go watch. You could say the same thing about most other countries, if they have one or 2 of their local top golfers show up, people will go and watch it. 

How does this have anything to do with LIV though? If you are saying that the PGAT ban has effectively meant players like Smith have felt they need to go and play in Oz, that is not the game plan of LIV. And, it says more about Cameron Smith or the Australian PGA Championship, in that either Smith "can't be bothered" supporting his national open if he could have what he wanted (i.e. not banned from PGAT), or the Australian PGA Championship is not really worth turning up for for elite golfers.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Thats only on a micro level. Sure, this tournament is better itself for the inclusion. But the consequences of that on a regular basis, is a weaker PGAT, and so weaker golf overall, if top forces are split.
It doesnt follow that being good today, means repeating it in the long term is good. The general opinion, LIVists aside, is that it would be bad.
		
Click to expand...

Other than saying "it will be bad" what examples of making it worse for golf can you give?


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which events, where golfers compete from different tours, do golfers not enjoy it? Even if LIV players are involved?

You are also referring to the Australian PGA Championship. Having had a quick look through the field, it appears 90% are from Australia, and the only names I seemed to recognise were Smith, Scott, Ogilvy, Leishman, Lewis and Howell. So, it is not exactly a stellar field, it seems to be the dort of field I'd expect from the Australian PGA Championship.

If the Irish Open had McIlroy, Lowry, Harrington, Clark and McDowell, and no other of the worlds leading golfers, I am sure the golfers would still enjoy it, and the fans would love it and go watch. You could say the same thing about most other countries, if they have one or 2 of their local top golfers show up, people will go and watch it.

How does this have anything to do with LIV though? If you are saying that the PGAT ban has effectively meant players like Smith have felt they need to go and play in Oz, that is not the game plan of LIV. And, it says more about Cameron Smith or the Australian PGA Championship, in that either Smith "can't be bothered" supporting his national open if he could have what he wanted (i.e. not banned from PGAT), or the Australian PGA Championship is not really worth turning up for for elite golfers.
		
Click to expand...

As I said in a much earlier post,  Cam Smith played in both the last Australian PGA and the last Australian Open,  so I'm not sure how his moving to LiV has had any effect on his ability to play these events this year.


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## AussieKB (Nov 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which events, where golfers compete from different tours, do golfers not enjoy it? Even if LIV players are involved?

You are also referring to the Australian PGA Championship. Having had a quick look through the field, it appears 90% are from Australia, and the only names I seemed to recognise were Smith, Scott, Ogilvy, Leishman, Lewis and Howell. So, it is not exactly a stellar field, it seems to be the dort of field I'd expect from the Australian PGA Championship.

If the Irish Open had McIlroy, Lowry, Harrington, Clark and McDowell, and no other of the worlds leading golfers, I am sure the golfers would still enjoy it, and the fans would love it and go watch. You could say the same thing about most other countries, if they have one or 2 of their local top golfers show up, people will go and watch it.

How does this have anything to do with LIV though? If you are saying that the PGAT ban has effectively meant players like Smith have felt they need to go and play in Oz, that is not the game plan of LIV. And, it says more about Cameron Smith or the Australian PGA Championship, in that either Smith "can't be bothered" supporting his national open if he could have what he wanted (i.e. not banned from PGAT), or the Australian PGA Championship is not really worth turning up for for elite golfers.
		
Click to expand...


*Rory McIlroy says it's going to be "hard to stomach" seeing 18 LIV Golf players at Wentworth on the DP World Tour. *


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you think LIV will change their model to allow players to just turn up for their “premium” events and not had to follow the LIV mantra ? 

And which LIV events are “premium” ?

And the majors are played where they are because that’s the biggest markets for golf - even LIV know that hence why 80% will be in the US

Events happen all over the globe 12 months of the year already and they did before LIV came along - they haven’t added anything new beyond a number of rich comps
		
Click to expand...


LIV is in its infancy, once the stand off between the tours is resolved, I’d expect to see players able to move between all the tours, which was obviously the intention from a LIV standpoint from the start. 

When that happens, I think the series will naturally evolve into a position where events have more popularity than others, much as we see on other tours. Sponsors and money will similarly play a key part. 

Even in the beta year, there were clearly events in the US that were more popular than others.


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Other than saying "it will be bad" what examples of making it worse for golf can you give?
		
Click to expand...

Fewer tournaments with a high proportion of the worlds best golfers competing together.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Fewer tournaments with a high proportion of the worlds best golfers competing together.
		
Click to expand...

I think that will just make the Majors better to be honest. 

They'll be like the champions league of golf events


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

AussieKB said:



*Rory McIlroy says it's going to be "hard to stomach" seeing 18 LIV Golf players at Wentworth on the DP World Tour. *

Click to expand...

That was loud.

So, from that you are assuming he won't enjoy playing golf at Wentworth, the other golfers won't enjoy playing at Wentworth and the fans won't be interested in watching the golf?

Whereas, from that I just get the impression that he is expressing the fact he does not agree with them playing there. That is all.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			As I said in a much earlier post,  Cam Smith played in both the last Australian PGA and the last Australian Open,  so I'm not sure how his moving to LiV has had any effect on his ability to play these events this year.
		
Click to expand...

So, just to remind me, what was the win-win situation. I may be wrong, I thought you were trying to say the presence of LIV has created a win-win situation due to the "quality" field playing in Oz. Now you are saying Cameron Smith always played in Oz anyway? Is it the other players you meant, like Howell and Ogilvy?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV is in its infancy, once the stand off between the tours is resolved, I’d expect to see players able to move between all the tours, which was obviously the intention from a LIV standpoint from the start.

When that happens, I think the series will naturally evolve into a position where events have more popularity than others, much as we see on other tours. Sponsors and money will similarly play a key part.

Even in the beta year, there were clearly events in the US that were more popular than others.
		
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Sorry but are you really suggesting that players will be able to move freely between LIV and other tours ? 

So all those players that are on contracts will be ok to miss LiV events to go and play events on other tours instead 

LiV doesn’t have any “sponsers” - the players with contracts have to play every single LiV event 

There is no freedom of movement with LIV - it’s a contract that the players have to stick too , they can’t pick and choose just like players from other tours can’t pick to play in LIV events 

There isn’t going to be some sort of peaceful resolution- LIV Tour can’t stand up on its own without Saudi wealth - and that’s not going to change. It’s unsustainable


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but are you really suggesting that players will be able to move freely between LIV and other tours ? 

So all those players that are on contracts will be ok to miss LiV events to go and play events on other tours instead 

LiV doesn’t have any “sponsers” - the players with contracts have to play every single LiV event 

There is no freedom of movement with LIV - it’s a contract that the players have to stick too , they can’t pick and choose just like players from other tours can’t pick to play in LIV events 

There isn’t going to be some sort of peaceful resolution- LIV Tour can’t stand up on its own without Saudi wealth - and that’s not going to change. It’s unsustainable
		
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Exactly. LIV wants a closed shop of 54. Not players dropping in and out from other tours.  I dont think there will be a peaceful solution either. LIV is dead in the water ad a serious tour, and just hasnt sunk yet.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but are you really suggesting that players will be able to move freely between LIV and other tours ?

So all those players that are on contracts will be ok to miss LiV events to go and play events on other tours instead

LiV doesn’t have any “sponsers” - the players with contracts have to play every single LiV event

There is no freedom of movement with LIV - it’s a contract that the players have to stick too , they can’t pick and choose just like players from other tours can’t pick to play in LIV events

There isn’t going to be some sort of peaceful resolution- LIV Tour can’t stand up on its own without Saudi wealth - and that’s not going to change. It’s unsustainable
		
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They have to play in the 14 LIV events but have a free calendar for 38 weeks of the year to play in other events. Ill note - the PGA tour are saying their top X players will play the top 12 events next year with increased prize pools so its almost the same damn thing. 

You don't know what's coming for 2023 in LIV, they might have sponsors for every team lined up? Your points are just negative speculation and factually wrong.


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## Backsticks (Nov 25, 2022)

W



Mel Smooth said:



			LIV is in its infancy, once the stand off between the tours is resolved, I’d expect to see players able to move between all the tours, which was obviously the intention from a LIV standpoint from the start. 

When that happens, I think the series will naturally evolve into a position where events have more popularity than others, much as we see on other tours. Sponsors and money will similarly play a key part. 

Even in the beta year, there were clearly events in the US that were more popular than others.
		
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Why does this - that whats liv intended all along - story come from  ?
Or is that revisionist facts given that they have failed to recruit the pgat cream that certainly was their original goal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They have to play in the 14 LIV events but have a free calendar for 38 weeks of the year to play in other events. Ill note - the PGA tour are saying their top X players will play the top 12 events next year with increased prize pools so its almost the same damn thing.
		
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So as I said - a LIV contract player has to play in every single LIV event - they can’t miss one out to go an play in an event on another tour. So what’s the point you are trying to counter ?

And it’s not “almost the same damn thing” - the PGAT players are not “required” to play in the top 12 events - they can miss every single one if they wish and play elsewhere 

So explain how it’s the “same thing”



			You don't know what's coming for 2023 in LIV, they might have sponsors for every team lined up? Your points are just negative speculation and factually wrong.
		
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“Might” ? Is that the same “might” have a mainstream Telly deal that didn’t appear , and all the other rumours that “might” have happened 

So basically it’s factually correct that their teams right now have no sponsors, their events have no sponsors - so “factually” -I’m correct


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They have to play in the 14 LIV events but have a free calendar for 38 weeks of the year to play in other events. Ill note - the PGA tour are saying their top X players will play the top 12 events next year with increased prize pools so its almost the same damn thing.

You don't know what's coming for 2023 in LIV, they might have sponsors for every team lined up? Your points are just negative speculation and factually wrong.
		
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Yes, but the players are locked into 14 of those specific events. No other tour demands a player MUST play in any specific event, big or large, so they are effectively free to do as they please with their calender.

LIV players are locked into 14 LIV events (so that rules out the other tour events happening at the same time immediately). The top LIV players would presumably want to play the 4 Majors and the 4 WGC's? That takes up 24 weeks. How many weeks does the average / top tour player play in a year? If they are locked into 14 LIV events, it doesn't leave them a lot of wriggle room to play outside of LIV and the biggest world events.


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## IainP (Nov 25, 2022)

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-elevated-events-schedule-for-2023-players-jay-monahan

Monahan said that "top players" were committed to competing in 16 tour events—the 13 elevated tournaments plus three others of their choosing

But still being worked out..
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/rahm-rule-tour-says-players-allowed-skip-1-elevated-event


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			W
Why does this - that whats liv intended all along - story come from  ?
Or is that revisionist facts given that they have failed to recruit the pgat cream that certainly was their original goal.
		
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Why don’t you check out some of the LIV statements from when the series launched, it’s got nothing to do with who they have or haven’t recruited. 

They repeatedly said they wanted to fit into the ‘golfing ecosystem’ well documented, Norman was repeatedly quoted as saying players should be able to play where they want. It’s really not hard to find that information.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but are you really suggesting that players will be able to move freely between LIV and other tours ? 

So all those players that are on contracts will be ok to miss LiV events to go and play events on other tours instead 

LiV doesn’t have any “sponsers” - the players with contracts have to play every single LiV event 

There is no freedom of movement with LIV - it’s a contract that the players have to stick too , they can’t pick and choose just like players from other tours can’t pick to play in LIV events 

There isn’t going to be some sort of peaceful resolution- LIV Tour can’t stand up on its own without Saudi wealth - and that’s not going to change. It’s unsustainable
		
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Do you think if an agreement could be made where any player (Rory, Xander, Rahm, Scottie etc) could play a limited number of LIV events, that LIV wouldn’t accommodate them. 

Of course they would.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you think if an agreement could be made where any player (Rory, Xander, Rahm, Scottie etc) could play a limited number of LIV events, that LIV wouldn’t accommodate them.

Of course they would.
		
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Of course they would accommodate them. Any of the other minor tours would do the same.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*Why don’t you check out some of the LIV statements from when the series launched, it’s got nothing to do with who they have or haven’t recruited.*

They repeatedly said they wanted to fit into the ‘golfing ecosystem’ well documented, Norman was repeatedly quoted as saying players should be able to play where they want. It’s really not hard to find that information.
		
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Funny that, given the big song and dance they, and their fans, make every time there is a rumour of a big player signing for them, let alone actual confirmation. Also funny they are prepared to give ridiculous sums of money to top players, when it isn't about who they have recruited. And then we hear LIV fans continually try and tell us the quality in the LIV fields, and how poor most standard PGAT events in terms of quality.

Again, it does sort of seem like you pick and choose your argument simply based on what suits at any given time. Sometimes the quality of players is absolutely paramount, than at other times it is not important in the slightest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Do you think if an agreement could be made where any player (Rory, Xander, Rahm, Scottie etc) could play a limited number of LIV events, that LIV wouldn’t accommodate them.

Of course they would.
		
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Why would LIV do that when they have players on contracts ? What do you think the likes of Cam Smith and Co would think ? 

But then why would the likes of Rory want to play on the event ? There is no prestige with them


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would LIV do that when they have players on contracts ? What do you think the likes of Cam Smith and Co would think ? 

But then why would the likes of Rory want to play on the event ? There is no prestige with them
		
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Ha ha. 

Why do you think Rory makes selective appearances on the DPWT? 

$$$


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ha ha.

Why do you think Rory makes selective appearances on the DPWT?

$$$
		
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He plays in the big ET events 🤷‍♂️ - the ones with prestige

If he was only about the money he would get a multi million dollar deal with LIV 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He plays in the big ET events 🤷‍♂️ - the ones with prestige

If he was only about the money he would get a multi million dollar deal with LIV 🤷‍♂️
		
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Ok Phil. 

Rory can earn more on the PGA tour than he does with LIV, he’s a paid mouthpiece for Jay Monahan.  He doesn’t even turn up for his own Open. The guy is all about the money. 

Compare him with Jon Rahm, there is a stark difference in their allegiances to where they play, and what they play for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Ok Phil.

Rory can earn more on the PGA tour than he does with LIV, he’s a paid mouthpiece for Jay Monahan.  He doesn’t even turn up for his own Open. The guy is all about the money.

Compare him with Jon Rahm, there is a stark difference in their allegiances to where they play, and what they play for.
		
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Yes Rory “earns” his money on the PGAT for his performances on the course

There is no doubt that LIV would treble what he could earn if they could get him 

He is positive about the PGA because it’s a tour that’s given him the platform to showcase his skills and has enabled him to win multiple majors 

And as for “doesn’t even turn up for his own Open” - the guy hosted it multiple times even winning it recently and helped ensure it kept going , you are just following the lazy Twitterati without doing research . He will be back playing there next season 

“
McIlroy helped to resuscitate the fortunes of the Irish Open by hosting the tournament from 2015 to 2018, including a winning performance at the K Club in 2016, but its place in the calendar between two majors means it doesn't suit his schedule this year.”


https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...h-open-return-at-k-club-in-2023-41815401.html


I’ll play the Irish Open next year,” McIlroy said at the JP McManus Pro-Am at Adare Manor. "This year it was just going to be hard for me because I had already committed to four in a row in the States and then knowing that I was playing in this event.

So that was my attitude this year. But next year I’m not going to do that four in a row stretch in June. So I will have a week off after the U.S. Open most likely and then I’ll come back and play at The K Club. That’s the plan.”


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, just to remind me, what was the win-win situation. I may be wrong, I thought you were trying to say the presence of LIV has created a win-win situation due to the "quality" field playing in Oz. Now you are saying Cameron Smith always played in Oz anyway? Is it the other players you meant, like Howell and Ogilvy?
		
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Was just trying to support your point.  Have the LiV bots got in your head😘


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## Swango1980 (Nov 25, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Was just trying to support your point.  Have the LiV bots got in your head😘
		
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Haha, they must have done. I thought you were AussieKB. I must have reacted quickly to the green profile image, rather than read the name. I might have also been wrongly getting excited about the Wales game in the World Cup at that time.


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## evemccc (Nov 26, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			For Europeans, the best place for all top golf to be played is in the US. Prime time evening TV. When it is anywhere else, it suits far few to see it.
The number of people at a tournament is miniscule compared to the TV audience, which is the one that matters.
		
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Spoken like a true cuckold of the US of A

Why not have golfers eat a cheeseburger whilst they ‘take the knee’ before they ‘tee it up’ too?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 26, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Spoken like a true cuckold of the US of A

Why not have golfers eat a cheeseburger whilst they ‘take the knee’ before they ‘tee it up’ too?
		
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*People, don't bite.*


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## evemccc (Nov 26, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



*People, don't bite.*

Click to expand...

LOL


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## BiMGuy (Nov 26, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Spoken like a true cuckold of the US of A

Why not have golfers eat a cheeseburger whilst they ‘take the knee’ before they ‘tee it up’ too?
		
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Can you show me on the doll where the USA touched you?

😂😂


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Most europeans would have to stay up until Monday morning to watch any US based golf tournament to it's conclusion. If you're retired, no problem, if you work and have kids, then they are at a terrible time for a TV audience.


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## AussieKB (Nov 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Haha, they must have done. I thought you were AussieKB. I must have reacted quickly to the green profile image, rather than read the name. I might have also been wrongly getting excited about the Wales game in the World Cup at that time.
		
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Love it...


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 27, 2022)

Absolutely nothing on the DP World Tour website about Cam Smiths with at Oz PGA 🤔🤔🤔

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworld-tour/rankings/overview/news/


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## cleveland52 (Nov 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Absolutely nothing on the DP World Tour website about Cam Smiths with at Oz PGA 🤔🤔🤔

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworld-tour/rankings/overview/news/

Click to expand...

The DP world tours position is clear. LIV players are not wanted nor needed.... they're there with the assistance of an injunction handed down by the court. It's not their job to help promote another tour.

Can't blame them for that.....


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Absolutely nothing on the DP World Tour website about Cam Smiths with at Oz PGA 🤔🤔🤔

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworld-tour/rankings/overview/news/

Click to expand...

Hit the DPWT logo top left and have another look...


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## IainP (Nov 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Absolutely nothing on the DP World Tour website about Cam Smiths with at Oz PGA 🤔🤔🤔

https://www.europeantour.com/dpworld-tour/rankings/overview/news/

Click to expand...

I see this...
https://www.europeantour.com/dpworl...d-fortinet-australian-pga-championship-title/


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 27, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Hit the DPWT logo top left and have another look...
		
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Yes good to see they have reported on it now.. 👍


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			The DP world tours position is clear. LIV players are not wanted nor needed.... they're there with the assistance of an injunction handed down by the court. *It's not their job to help promote another tour.*

Can't blame them for that.....
		
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Hiarious, given the fact that the DPW tours primary objective is to now promote another tour.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 27, 2022)

Think regardless of thoughts on Liv we all agree Can Smith is one of the best Golfers in the world. 

Read something today saying that as it stands in a few months he will be ranked outside the top 50, DJ could be ranked near to 100 & BDC will be well outside the top 100.

How will OWGR be regarded by players and fans if that happens?


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2022)

Here we go again.......


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## Backsticks (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Hiarious, given the fact that the DPW tours primary objective is to now promote another tour.
		
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Not to promote. But has benefitted from the LIV situation to improve its own standing through closer association and a sort of most-favoured regional feeder tour. World Tour has done well out of LIV.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not to promote. But has benefitted frim the LIV situation to improve its own standing through closer association and a sort of most-favoured regional feeder tour. World Tour has done well of of LIV.
		
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The popularity of Smiths win today shows that the banning of LIV players from the DPWT is completely pointless. What have they got to gain by stopping these quality players competing? I'd be genuinely interested to know peoples views on this.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 27, 2022)

OWGR pts in the news again. 

DPWT Australian PGA winner gets 10pts
Korn Ferry event winner gets 14pts

Does this mean the DPWT is less important than the Korn Ferry tour? 🤔
Surely the pro golfers in that 72hole event with a cut are stronger than a Korn Ferry event? 

Who came up with this system because it seems odd to say the least.


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## IainP (Nov 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			OWGR pts in the news again.

DPWT Australian PGA winner gets 10pts
Korn Ferry event winner gets 14pts

Does this mean the DPWT is less important than the Korn Ferry tour? 🤔
Surely the pro golfers in that 72hole event with a cut are stronger than a Korn Ferry event?

Who came up with this system because it seems odd to say the least.
		
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There wasn't a KFT event this weekend was there?
But DPWT were co-sanctioning 2 events.

Perhaps a better comparison is how many KFT players will qualify to the PGAT...


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## Backsticks (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The popularity of Smiths win today shows that the banning of LIV players from the DPWT is completely pointless. What have they got to gain by stopping these quality players competing? I'd be genuinely interested to know peoples views on this.
		
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It has a very much does have a strong point. It aligns the DP to the much stronger PGAT, rather than the weaker, and uncertain future, LIV tour.
Are you saying that you cannot see that?


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It has a very much does have a strong point. It aligns the DP to the much stronger PGAT, rather than the weaker, and uncertain future, LIV tour.
Are you saying that you cannot see that?
		
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So why can't the DPWT be aligned to both? Has Smith winning in a co-sanctioned DPWT event damaged the tour in any way, or has it added to the event?

It's CLEARLY added to it, Champion golfer, current major holder, likeable guy... 

How is it in the best interests of the DPWT to ban these players from their tournaments?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 27, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Think regardless of thoughts on Liv we all agree Can Smith is one of the best Golfers in the world.

Read something today saying that as it stands in a few months he will be ranked outside the top 50, DJ could be ranked near to 100 & BDC will be well outside the top 100.

How will OWGR be regarded by players and fans if that happens?
		
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You genuinely trying to start this again? Do you hope people will give different answers? If not, just go back a few pages and read what has been said already


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You genuinely trying to start this again? Do you hope people will give different answers? If not, just go back a few pages and read what has been said already 

Click to expand...

True. Think we all know that OWGR is defunct now. 


There's nothing more to be said on the matter ;-)


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## JamesR (Nov 27, 2022)

It’s not defunct. It’s very much still in use!


Mel Smooth said:



			True. Think we all know that OWGR is defunct now.


There's nothing more to be said on the matter ;-)
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why can't the DPWT be aligned to both? Has Smith winning in a co-sanctioned DPWT event damaged the tour in any way, or has it added to the event?

It's CLEARLY added to it, Champion golfer, current major holder, likeable guy...

How is it in the best interests of the DPWT to ban these players from their tournaments?
		
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Can you really not understand why neither of the two main tours want to align with LIV ? 

Surely after 6 months of LIV you can see why the tours won’t ever align with them ? 

LIV is a closed shop , invite only - any alignment will be for LIV players to play in any event they wish - would it be two way traffic and any ET or PGAT player can play in any LIV event - no of course it wouldn’t.

The current event in Australia has nothing to do with LIV , it was there before LIV and there after LIV.


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You genuinely trying to start this again? Do you hope people will give different answers? If not, just go back a few pages and read what has been said already 

Click to expand...

Sorry if its already been mentioned I only dip in and out of this thread and don't read every post..


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you really not understand why neither of the two main tours want to align with LIV ? 

Surely after 6 months of LIV you can see why the tours won’t ever align with them ? 

LIV is a closed shop , invite only - any alignment will be for LIV players to play in any event they wish - would it be two way traffic and any ET or PGAT player can play in any LIV event - no of course it wouldn’t.

The current event in Australia has nothing to do with LIV , it was there before LIV and there after LIV.
		
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So you want all the LIV players to be excluded from all other golf events Phil?

Can you explain how that benefits pro golf, and those that follow it?


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## Backsticks (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you want all the LIV players to be excluded from all other golf events Phil?

Can you explain how that benefits pro golf, and those that follow it?
		
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By killing off LIV, and having the PGAT has the clear first division of professional golf tournaments. All the worlds top players in a dozen of its events, and a good portion of them in 10 more.
That benefits those of us who follow pro golf as entertainment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you want all the LIV players to be excluded from all other golf events Phil?

Can you explain how that benefits pro golf, and those that follow it?
		
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Tell me why LIV golfers should be allowed to “leave” their home tours and go to another tour because of the levels of money given but then pick and chose what events they can also come back and play ? 

Why should there be this small bunch of golfers getting everything they want ? 

The players made a choice to go to a new tour and in doing so it meant they left another tour - their choice, they weren’t forced into it they all made the choice to follow the money. 

Do you think it’s fair on those ET golfers that are fully committed to the tour then miss out with Mr LIV decides he wants to play in an event ? 


The players leaving the two main tours didn’t care about pro golf , they didn’t care that they were diluting the viewing 

Everything thats happened over the last 6 months always seems to be blamed on the PGAT or ET - yet it was all instigated by LIV - do you think you will ever blame them ?


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## Backsticks (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why can't the DPWT be aligned to both? Has Smith winning in a co-sanctioned DPWT event damaged the tour in any way, or has it added to the event?

It's CLEARLY added to it, Champion golfer, current major holder, likeable guy...

How is it in the best interests of the DPWT to ban these players from their tournaments?
		
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In a one of sense, he added to it. Because on his own he is insignificant. But if many did so, then the pgat is harmed, and so the top division of world golf is devalued. The product is devalued. Fans get less.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So you want all the LIV players to be excluded from all other golf events Phil?

Can you explain how that benefits pro golf, and those that follow it?
		
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As Swango has already said try reading through earlier answers to the same questions you been asking over and over again. Only when either LiV changes or many more of the top players move over are opinions likely to change.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tell me why LIV golfers should be allowed to “leave” their home tours and go to another tour because of the levels of money given but then pick and chose what events they can also come back and play ?

Why should there be this small bunch of golfers getting everything they want ?

The players made a choice to go to a new tour and in doing so it meant they left another tour - their choice, they weren’t forced into it they all made the choice to follow the money.

Do you think it’s fair on those ET golfers that are fully committed to the tour then miss out with Mr LIV decides he wants to play in an event ?


The players leaving the two main tours didn’t care about pro golf , they didn’t care that they were diluting the viewing

Everything thats happened over the last 6 months always seems to be blamed on the PGAT or ET - yet it was all instigated by LIV - do you think you will ever blame them ?
		
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All golfers pick and choose their events, do you even realise how contradictory your arguments are - players are switching between tours all the time - usually based on what prize money is available right?

Why can't LIV be part of that landscape? LIV is only a closed shop because two tours have shut down the opportunities for their players to play where they choose - it's well documented - LIV tried to negotiate with both the PGAT  and DPWT - that would have seen golfers playing across all tours including LIV - they both turned down the opportunity - "It's dead in the water" was the thoughts right? But it wasn't, was it....


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All golfers pick and choose their events, do you even realise how contradictory your arguments are - players are switching between tours all the time - usually based on what prize money is available right?

Why can't LIV be part of that landscape? LIV is only a closed shop because two tours have shut down the opportunities for their players to play where they choose - it's well documented - LIV tried to negotiate with both the PGAT  and DPWT - that would have seen golfers playing across all tours including LIV - they both turned down the opportunity - "It's dead in the water" was the thoughts right? But it wasn't, was it....
		
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LiV …….. negotiating……. Oh that’s good, very good indeed ……oh my……..chortle…..snort 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All golfers pick and choose their events, do you even realise how contradictory your arguments are - players are switching between tours all the time - usually based on what prize money is available right?

Why can't LIV be part of that landscape? LIV is only a closed shop because two tours have shut down the opportunities for their players to play where they choose - it's well documented - LIV tried to negotiate with both the PGAT  and DPWT - that would have seen golfers playing across all tours including LIV - they both turned down the opportunity - "It's dead in the water" was the thoughts right? But it wasn't, was it....
		
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LIV is an invite only closed tour with players only able to play if they are invited and some on contracts 

Players are able to play on Tours that don’t directly provide competition against each other

This time last year did you think to yourself 
“What we really need is another golf tour putting on golf events in the same area we already have golf events”

The PGAT and ET work together because they host events in two different areas. 

And yes they are going to turn down working with LIV because they only people that would suit is LIV - LIV was always going to be a closed invite only , contracted players that “must” play all LIV events 

Your bias has made you blind to anything beyond LIV .


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## IainP (Nov 27, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			LiV …….. negotiating……. Oh that’s good, very good indeed ……oh my……..chortle…..snort 😂
		
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IMO a decent debate on going via the posts either side of this one. Not actually sure what the post adds, but would you concede the statements below infer some negotiations were ongoing prior to the decision being made?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/we-wanted-to-be-on-the-right-side-of-history-dp-world-tour-chairman


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			LiV …….. negotiating……. Oh that’s good, very good indeed ……oh my……..chortle…..snort 😂
		
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Check the facts Phillip. ;-)


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## BiMGuy (Nov 27, 2022)

I’m surprised the LiV tour, it’s players and fans want anything to do with the other tours given all the complaints they’ve made about them.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			LIV is an invite only closed tour with players only able to play if they are invited and some on contracts

Players are able to play on Tours that don’t directly provide competition against each other

This time last year did you think to yourself
“What we really need is another golf tour putting on golf events in the same area we already have golf events”

The PGAT and ET work together because they host events in two different areas.

And yes they are going to turn down working with LIV because they only people that would suit is LIV - LIV was always going to be a closed invite only , contracted players that “must” play all LIV events

Your bias has made you blind to anything beyond LIV .
		
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On the day a lad from Yorkshire has secured his DPWT future on the back of  an invite to a tournament, the notion that players being invited to tournaments is wrong seems a little ironic tbh.


I'll ask again, are the two tours who have attempted to block players from competing going to benefit from those players being absent, and if so, can you explain how that will be the case, given we've all seen Cam Smith win an event in his home country infront of appreciative crowds. 

You'd rather watch golf competetions with depleted fields, yes?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'll ask again, *are the two tours who have attempted to block players from competing going to benefit from those players being absent*, and if so, can you explain how that will be the case, given we've all seen Cam Smith win an event in his home country infront of appreciative crowds.
		
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I would imagine that the biggest benefit to the tours from banning players from competing will be to act as a deterrent to others who might have been thinking of making the switch.


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## IainP (Nov 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’m surprised the *LiV tour,* it’s players and fans want anything to do with the other tours given all the complaints they’ve made about them.
		
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Maybe it is down to definitions, but to my mind LIV have never wanted to be a "Tour", always thought they were gunning for a league. Lot of people don't like that, and I understand that.
This week players who have been involved in LIV have been playing on the Sunshine Tour,  the Asian Tour, the Japan Tour, the Australasia Tour, and via co-sanctioning the DPWT. It's almost as if they were independent contractors 😉 🎣
Obviously understand how big $$ makes that complicated to happen everywhere.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			On the day a lad from Yorkshire has secured his DPWT future on the back of  an invite to a tournament, the notion that players being invited to tournaments is wrong seems a little ironic tbh.
		
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Every single golf event over the decades has had sponsors invites for various and many times used to bring in up and coming pros giving them a chance to kick start their career - this weekend a perfect example 

But all those events also have multiple other ways for players to gain entry 

Surely you aren’t trying to compare it to the LIV tour where the only way a player can play is if they are invited to join the tour and even then a player may not be able to play in every event and may lose their place depending on who else they invite and of course irrelevant to performance 




			I'll ask again, are the two tours who have attempted to block players from competing going to benefit from those players being absent,
		
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They may benefit they may not - it depends on what the criteria is - the tours are still getting the viewers , still getting the crowds , they still have 99% of the pros trying to play in their events 




			and if so, can you explain how that will be the case, given we've all seen Cam Smith win an event in his home country infront of appreciative crowds.

You'd rather watch golf competetions with depleted fields, yes?
		
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Cam Smith and all the other Aussies were able to play in any Aus event before LIV anyway 🤷‍♂️ what difference has LIV made for the Aus PGA ? Zero ? It’s a comp in his own home tour and he has always been able to play in it 

None of the golf comps I have watched this year have been of any less quality and I suspect the same will be next year


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## IainP (Nov 27, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would imagine that the biggest benefit to the tours from banning players from competing will be to act as a deterrent to others who might have been thinking of making the switch.
		
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Agree, but is 'switch' really the correct/only word, did it have to be one or the other? - expect this is where the legal stuff will go.

Were players viewed as 'employees'?
Quotes like this haven’t helped IMO
"trying to take *our* players away"

It is all subtleties I know. Perhaps the mess mens pro golf is currently in was inevitable.


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## Backsticks (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I'll ask again, are the two tours who have attempted to block players from competing going to benefit from those players being absent, and if so, can you explain how that will be the case, given we've all seen Cam Smith win an event in his home country infront of appreciative crowds.
		
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This question has been answered many times here in many different ways. Everybody else seems to have have understood the explanation.
But we can write it out again : The two tours benefit, as they are deterring other players from joining LIV, and ensuring the quality of their own week in week out fields. This is why both tours have pursued this strategy. Both of them understand it. We understand it. Its why the DP is going to court to exclude them. And, since Smith, they seem to be succeeding and have stemmed the exodus, and only a handful of marquee players have been lost. DP has gained by strengthening its link to the pgat and appearances by its players. The PGAT gains by offering the great majority of the worlds best golfers in its presentation.
I dont think there is a simpler way to explain it.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 27, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			All golfers pick and choose their events, do you even realise how contradictory your arguments are - players are switching between tours all the time - usually based on what prize money is available right?

Why can't LIV be part of that landscape? LIV is only a closed shop because two tours have shut down the opportunities for their players to play where they choose - it's well documented - LIV tried to negotiate with both the PGAT  and DPWT - that would have seen golfers playing across all tours including LIV - they both turned down the opportunity - "It's dead in the water" was the thoughts right? But it wasn't, was it....
		
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All players cannot pick and choose which events they play in,  or at least those not contracted to LiV can't and never have been permitted to.  Before LiV came along players could choose provided they got the relevant permissions from their home tours.  It was LiV that changed that not the PGAT or the DPWT

I am sure if, as you say, it's well documented that LiV offered to introduce their tour such that all players could have entered their competitions without an invite you would be happy to point us in the direction of those documents. 

In any case if LiV wished to start an open tour,  they could have done so without such an agreement,  so what was or is stopping them?


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## AussieKB (Nov 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every single golf event over the decades has had sponsors invites for various and many times used to bring in up and coming pros giving them a chance to kick start their career - this weekend a perfect example

But all those events also have multiple other ways for players to gain entry

Surely you aren’t trying to compare it to the LIV tour where the only way a player can play is if they are invited to join the tour and even then a player may not be able to play in every event and may lose their place depending on who else they invite and of course irrelevant to performance



They may benefit they may not - it depends on what the criteria is - the tours are still getting the viewers , still getting the crowds , they still have 99% of the pros trying to play in their events



Cam Smith and all the other Aussies were able to play in any Aus event before LIV anyway 🤷‍♂️ what difference has LIV made for the Aus PGA ? Zero ? It’s a comp in his own home tour and he has always been able to play in it

None of the golf comps I have watched this year have been of any less quality and I suspect the same will be next year
		
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So not have the defending Champion play will enhance that event ?


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## Backsticks (Nov 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			So not have the defending Champion play will enhance that event ?
		
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Yes. Clearly.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			You'd rather watch golf competetions with depleted fields, yes?
		
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This line of attack seems a bit hypocritical from such a big fan of LIV. You tell us how much you have enjoyed watching LIV this past year which is the very definition of golf with "depleted fields". It seems as though you're saying that LIV golf with depleted fields is great but PGA Tour golf with depleted fields is rubbish.


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## Backsticks (Nov 28, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			This line of attack seems a bit hypocritical from such a big fan of LIV. You tell us how much you have enjoyed watching LIV this past year which is the very definition of golf with "depleted fields". It seems as though you're saying that LIV golf with depleted fields is great but PGA Tour golf with depleted fields is rubbish.
		
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And that with a PGAT field that is only a tenth as depleted as a LIV field.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 28, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			This line of attack seems a bit hypocritical from such a big fan of LIV. You tell us how much you have enjoyed watching LIV this past year which is the very definition of golf with "depleted fields". It seems as though you're saying that LIV golf with depleted fields is great but PGA Tour golf with depleted fields is rubbish.
		
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I’ve enjoyed watching lots of golf this past year. How many events on any tours have strong fields - not many in reality - and the LIV fields have been good considering it’s a start up. 

Has anybody actually answered my question yet as to how banning players benefits either the DPWT or the PGAT? 

The stock answer seems to be that it’s stopped other players leaving, but if they weren’t going to be banned, then that wouldn’t matter would it - they’d still be able to play in the events that they’d ordinary have chosen to play in.


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## Backsticks (Nov 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Has anybody actually answered my question yet as to how banning players benefits either the DPWT or the PGAT?
		
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They have. Many times.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I’ve enjoyed watching lots of golf this past year. How many events on any tours have strong fields - not many in reality - and the LIV fields have been good considering it’s a start up.

Has anybody actually answered my question yet as to how banning players benefits either the DPWT or the PGAT?

The stock answer seems to be that it’s stopped other players leaving, but if they weren’t going to be banned, then that wouldn’t matter would it - they’d still be able to play in the events that they’d *ordinary have chosen to play in*.
		
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So now you're telling us that as well as 14 LiV tour events players would have still committed to playing circa 20-25 events on the PGAT or BPWT,  whatever happened to the wish to spend more time with the family.


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## SteveW86 (Nov 28, 2022)

How on earth has this thread averaged 32 posts a day since it was created?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 28, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			How on earth has this thread averaged 32 posts a day since it was created?
		
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People love to argue...


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## SteveW86 (Nov 28, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			People love to argue...
		
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If only they could find some new points to argue over


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## Bdill93 (Nov 28, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			If only they could find some new points to argue over
		
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Why do that when you can recycle the same argument for 457 pages?

Its silly really, people have now made their minds up one way or another and don't change them. 

I for one care not one bit about 90% of it. Id just like to see the worlds best players at the majors - everything else can stay as it is!


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## LincolnShep (Nov 28, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			People love to argue...
		
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No they don't.


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## AussieKB (Nov 29, 2022)

Comment from Mark Leishman

Critics of Saudia Arabia's human rights record and vocal opposition of the LIV Tour from world No.1 Rory McIlroy has meant Leishman has copped his share of abuse on social media.


"But nothing face-to-face; it's been amazing here," Leishman, whose caddie Matt Kelly wore a LIV Golf hat throughout the tournament, said.


"It's just social media ... there's no consequences for what's said there, so I don't take much from that.

I suppose us keyboard warriors could take a lesson or two, I'm off to my local petrol station to tell them I am only going to buy non Saudi petrol.....there I've made a stand....


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Comment from Mark Leishman

Critics of Saudia Arabia's human rights record and vocal opposition of the LIV Tour from world No.1 Rory McIlroy has meant Leishman has copped his share of abuse on social media.


"But nothing face-to-face; it's been amazing here," Leishman, whose caddie Matt Kelly wore a LIV Golf hat throughout the tournament, said.


"It's just social media ... there's no consequences for what's said there, so I don't take much from that.

I suppose us keyboard warriors could take a lesson or two, I'm off to my local petrol station to tell them I am only going to buy non Saudi petrol.....there I've made a stand....

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Strawman really.

Its the deterioration to golf as entertainment that is the real cause of the lack of welcome for LIVs arrival.  Though thankfully a fading risk. The PGAT centre seems to have held out against it.


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## AussieKB (Nov 29, 2022)

The genie is out of the bottle, get used to it, World Golf has changed for better or worse.


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## JamesR (Nov 29, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I for one care not one bit about 90% of it. Id just like to see the worlds best players at the majors - everything else can stay as it is!
		
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Which, I reckon, will be the case


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## IainP (Nov 29, 2022)

Afraid the OWGR debate isn't going away... 
Extract from the article:
"  my recommendation is for OWGR to remain in place, but to consist of just the four bodies that host the majors: the Masters; the PGA of America; the US Open and the Open. No professional tours — zero, none, zilch — would have a seat at the table. The four majors alone will determine eligibility for the majors. And among the Big Four, each of the majors will be entitled to include special exemptions of their own choosing. For example, amateurs in the Masters and the two Opens, club pros in the PGA Championship. "
Might be an option to calm it all down.

https://golfdigestme.com/is-it-time-to-abolish-the-world-ranking/


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The genie is out of the bottle, get used to it, World Golf has changed for better or worse.
		
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I think the genie is still stuck in the bottle. LIV has not levered the worlds best. Thats why I mentioned Smith looking marooned. He will be a very wealthy man. But wont be playing credible golf tournaments, but he is entitled to his choice. The risk for LIV now, with the closing of the ranks on the PGAT, is that it fizzles out completely.
A 54 man tournament structure has merit if it has the worlds best 54. Or even a majority of the worlds best. But is meaningless if not, which is where it 8s at the moment.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			Afraid the OWGR debate isn't going away... 
Extract from the article:
"  my recommendation is for OWGR to remain in place, but to consist of just the four bodies that host the majors: the Masters; the PGA of America; the US Open and the Open. No professional tours — zero, none, zilch — would have a seat at the table. The four majors alone will determine eligibility for the majors. And among the Big Four, each of the majors will be entitled to include special exemptions of their own choosing. For example, amateurs in the Masters and the two Opens, club pros in the PGA Championship. "
Might be an option to calm it all down.

https://golfdigestme.com/is-it-time-to-abolish-the-world-ranking/

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Not a bad idea.

The simplest way to do it in my mind is money lists.

PGAT Money list (maybe to include PIP payments so the biggest stars still play) -  about 30 players to the Masters but more to the others. 
LIV Money list down to maybe 8 players (to exclude team payments)

All previous major champs qualify automatically for 20 years or something (plus the obvious exemptions already in place) 

Otherwise stick to your tour/ tours as they are now.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The genie is out of the bottle, get used to it, World Golf has changed for better or worse.
		
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unless they start making money and can fund themselves then there become a time when the PIF will pull the plug

as far as I can see they are a long way from being self funded and PIF have sunk over $2,000,000,000 already with nothing on the horizon that they will get anything back from it


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			unless they start making money and can fund themselves then there become a time when the PIF will pull the plug

as far as I can see they are a long way from being self funded and PIF have sunk over $2,000,000,000 already with nothing on the horizon that they will get anything back from it
		
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I thought the whole accusation was that they are sports washing, it certainly was at the start of this thread, surely a profit isn't too important if that's the case?


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I thought the whole accusation was that they are sports washing, it certainly was at the start of this thread, surely a profit isn't too important if that's the case?
		
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Not at the moment it isn't....but another 5 or 6 years down the line are they still going to want to plough billions into something that doesn't give them anything back.?
I know the pit is fairly bottomless but they must have a limit to what they're prepared to "lose"


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## garyinderry (Nov 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			I think the genie is still stuck in the bottle. LIV has levered the worlds best. Thats why I mentioned Smith looking marooned. He will be a very wealthy man. But wont be playing credible golf tournaments, but he is entitled to his choice. The risk for LIV now, with the closing of the ranks on the PGAT, is that it fizzles out completely.
A 54 man tournament structure has merit if it has the worlds best 54. Or even a majority of the worlds best. But is meaningless if not, which is where it 8s at the moment.
		
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I may end up being wrong but I think if LIV doesnt get a big TV deal and take off properly with viewing figures if may wrap up in a year or two. 
I'd say the players know that too and the ones that went have been willing to take the risk to fill their bank accounts while they can. The older players like poulter, Stenson and phil. A last money grab if u will. 
Cam and Bryson taking huge pay checks to sign. If its only a few years they could easily be knocking on the door of the PGA looking back in if it all closes down. How long can they keep them out in the cold. A year?  I'd say it was a calculated risk they were willing to take. 
The never will bes like Perez and leisman are happy to make hay while it shines. 

The TV deal is big as that's where this tour is supposed to make an income. Still no sign of it even now. 
The YouTube viewing figures have been abysmal. All these kids they were supposed to be attracting from this giant pool haven't materialised. 
They put on the LIV events on weeks that were quiet on the PGA. The viewers were likely older golf fans eager to see golf from their old favourite players. I include myself in this category. I watched quite a bit of LIV to see some of my old favourite players play. 

I predict 2 years to get the viewing figures sorted out or they may wrap it up. Maybe the saudis are happy to pump money into a black hole for minimal gains. It remains to be seen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The genie is out of the bottle, get used to it, World Golf has changed for better or worse.
		
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A lot of things need to happen for LIV tour to become viable long term 

Finances - it needs to be sustainable , they can’t afford to just pay out millions each year , they need sponsers and a huge Telly deal - both of which seem to be non existent at the moment


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## evemccc (Nov 29, 2022)

Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject


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## Bdill93 (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject
		
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PIP does make me laugh, its just cash for the boys!


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject
		
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I think with the current economics of the world, nothing is secure. PGAT have lost a long term sponsor - they now need to be replaced. 
LIV will get sponsors onboard, the Saudis have their fingers in so many pies, it’s inevitable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject
		
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Yes it’s very much viable when the tour makes a huge profit each season 

Every event has a lot of sponsers, they have multiple Telly deals all over the world - add in the likes of Fed Ex paying a lot of money 

The Tour is very much beyond sustainable


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

*Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject*

Click to expand...

I am no lover of the PiP, but for a LIV supporter to criticise in this way is beyond hypocrisy.  Remind me how much were Mickelson/Johnson/Smith etc paid for simply being there.


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject
		
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'Supporters' of the PGAT dont really exist, and misrepresents the motivation of the anti LIV perspective. LIV is seen as damaging to the quality of top level pro golf. That isnt support for the PGAT.
There is only recognition, among the great majority of golf followers, of the damage the LIV risked inflicting.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject
		
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I am not sure an increase of 63M (or 12%) can be considered huge and we'll find out whether it is sustainable when PGAT publish their accounts I gues,  but its been aroujnd a long time so I don't see it disappearing any time soon,  do you?.   How long do you think the LiV model is sustainable and are you happy for a tour to simply write off annual losses forever?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			'Supporters' of the PGAT dont really exist, and misrepresents the motivation of the anti LIV perspective. LIV is seen as damaging to the quality of top level pro golf. That isnt support for the PGAT.
There is only recognition, among the great majority of golf followers, of the damage the LIV risked inflicting.
		
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In the grand scheme of things 48 guys getting paid loads to play on one tour doesn't really make much difference at all. It hasn't so far lets be honest.


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			In the grand scheme of things 48 guys getting paid loads to play on one tour doesn't really make much difference at all. It hasn't so far lets be honest.
		
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It certainly would if they had attracted a big enough number of the best. Then the PGAT would be a second division, and the LIV a pre champions ehibition circus. But LIV os a clear failure so far. DJ, Smith, and Bryson are losses. But overall, the PGAT looks like it is sailing on pretty much unscathed.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It certainly would if they had attracted a big enough number of the best. Then the PGAT would be a second division, and the LIV a pre champions ehibition circus. But LIV os a clear failure so far. DJ, Smith, and Bryson are losses. But overall, the *PGAT looks like it is sailing on pretty much unscathed.*

Click to expand...

Exactly and I don't think that will change. 

I understand that in time, if sponsors dropped of the PGAT to go to LIV instead this would harm the tours finances a bit, but harm pro golf? I don't see how, LIV's field is just too small.  

Start ups don't make profits for years, LIV has plenty of time to work out their own sustainability - its not a "clear failure" at all. In fact they're doing better than I thought they would be if I'm honest!


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## evemccc (Nov 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am no lover of the PiP, but for a LIV supporter to criticise in this way is beyond hypocrisy.  Remind me how much were Mickelson/Johnson/Smith etc paid for simply being there.
		
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Why do you think I am a Liv supporter???


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## IainP (Nov 29, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			I may end up being wrong but I think if LIV doesnt get a big TV deal and take off properly with viewing figures if may wrap up in a year or two.
I'd say the players know that too and the ones that went have been willing to take the risk to fill their bank accounts while they can. The older players like poulter, Stenson and phil. A last money grab if u will.
Cam and Bryson taking huge pay checks to sign. If its only a few years they could easily be knocking on the door of the PGA looking back in if it all closes down. How long can they keep them out in the cold. A year?  I'd say it was a calculated risk they were willing to take.
The never will bes like Perez and leisman are happy to make hay while it shines.

The TV deal is big as that's where this tour is supposed to make an income. Still no sign of it even now.
The YouTube viewing figures have been abysmal. All these kids they were supposed to be attracting from this giant pool haven't materialised.
They put on the LIV events on weeks that were quiet on the PGA. The viewers were likely older golf fans eager to see golf from their old favourite players. I include myself in this category. I watched quite a bit of LIV to see some of my old favourite players play.

I predict 2 years to get the viewing figures sorted out or they may wrap it up. Maybe the saudis are happy to pump money into a black hole for minimal gains. It remains to be seen.
		
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Agree with your general thoughts on the players. You may have missed it but last month the media were reporting agreed funding to the end of 2025.
Personally, right now, I can't imagine how to be in a place to balance the books beyond that! Then again I struggle with PGAT balancing in future with growing nbr of elevated events and PIP. Perhaps this just shows I'm not very imaginative! 🥴
On tv deal,  were you meaning in the USA specifically, or where you watch?
My guess would be the 2022 viewing figures were down,  but it would only be a guess, are you able to share the worldwide viewing figures? For liv or for any established tours? I've never been able to find anything reliable.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Why do you think I am a Liv supporter???
		
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Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT,  without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too.  Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



*Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT*,  without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too.  Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.
		
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Even_ I'm_ not highly critical of the PGAT, yes I question some of the decisions they have made and whether they have been in their best interests, but there's no basis whatsoever to any arguments to suggest people dislike, let alone 'hate' the PGAT.

This whole theory that constantly get's pushed that LIV is out to destroy the PGAT, and that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense. People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it?  LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Even_ I'm_ not highly critical of the PGAT, yes I question some of the decisions they have made and whether they have been in their best interests, but there's no basis whatsoever to any arguments to suggest people dislike, let alone 'hate' the PGAT.

This whole theory that constantly get's pushed that LIV is out to destroy the PGAT, and that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense. People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it?  LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.
		
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If you had a look at  posts of evenecc,  you might form a different opinion.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			If you had a look at  posts of evenecc,  you might form a different opinion.
		
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I have, he's pretty balanced.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I have, he's pretty balanced.
		
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Well we'll just have to agree to differ.


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			This whole theory that constantly get's pushed .....that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense.
		
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It certainly isnt nonsense. LIV was a huge threat to the PGAT. It is still a smaller threat now. Not the the PGAT would go out of business completely, but that it would be significantly downgraded in the quality of golfers competing in its tournaments. If the Saudis could have bought the worlds top 50 golfers, then they would have. Interest in, revenue, and level of competition in the PGAT events would have diminished. So it was certainly in a battle to resist LIV, and survived, pretty much unscathed, and able to continue to be the window for competition between the worlds best.




Mel Smooth said:



			People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it?  LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.
		
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 Fans arent picking a side. There really isnt a contest going on any more anyway. People just want LIV to go away. Splitting the worlds golfers into two camps would have done nothing for golf spectators. And apart from the loss of 5 golfers from the PGAT of significance, the PGAT will carry on as it was, not slightly different. Virtually unchanged. Which is great.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			It certainly isnt nonsense. LIV was a huge threat to the PGAT. It is still a smaller threat now. Not the the PGAT would go out of business completely, but that it would be significantly downgraded in the quality of golfers competing in its tournaments. If the Saudis could have bought the worlds top 50 golfers, then they would have. Interest in, revenue, and level of competition in the PGAT events would have diminished. So it was certainly in a battle to resist LIV, and survived, pretty much unscathed, and able to continue to be the window for competition between the worlds best.


Fans arent picking a side. There really isnt a contest going on any more anyway. People just want LIV to go away. Splitting the worlds golfers into two camps would have done nothing for golf spectators. And apart from the loss of 5 golfers from the PGAT of significance, the PGAT will carry on as it was, not slightly different. Virtually unchanged. Which is great.
		
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So why is Tiger bleating on about Greg Norman stepping down then? The threat has gone according to you. Tiger disgarees, Rory disgarees, and next week, there is a meeting amongst the big wigs on how to deal with the threat of LIV.

Me thinks you are wrong.


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## Backsticks (Nov 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So why is Tiger bleating on about Greg Norman stepping down then? The threat has gone according to you. Tiger disgarees, Rory disgarees, and next week, there is a meeting amongst the big wigs on how to deal with the threat of LIV.
		
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So that LIV can move to a fully non-threatening role towards the PGAT. They believe, and it seems with good grounds, that Greg is driven by more than just LIV success, but PGAT damage. If that element is dropped, and they read it that it can only be dropped by Greg vacating stage, then LIV could have a role to play as a pre-champions tour. Where the likes of Phil or Westy or McDowell can tour the world in an exhibition type structure that lets lesser golfed areas of the globe see them, and provide a bridge to the Champions Tour. The best would still be on the PGAT as is. Guesting from some of the LIV tour could then be entertained. But as long as the push from LIV is to poach the best, the PGAT will always seek to protect its strength. LIV must defuse its warhead - removing Greg and finding its niche without removing worlds top 50 players from the PGAT is the route.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am not sure an increase of 63M (or 12%) can be considered huge and we'll find out whether it is sustainable when PGAT publish their accounts I gues,  but its been aroujnd a long time so I don't see it disappearing any time soon,  do you?.   *How long do you think the LiV model is sustainable and are you happy for a tour to simply write off annual losses forever?*

Click to expand...

Alot of people seem to be just fine with that......unbelievable.


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## IainP (Nov 29, 2022)

On the subject on monsieur Woods, I wasn't expecting this. The news itself not so surprising (Covid was a big impact), but him being so candid ..

“The PGA Tour took out an enormous loan during pandemic. If we had another year of the pandemic, the PGA Tour wouldn’t have made it. The enormous loan worked in our benefit, hence we were able to use that money to make the [purse] increases we’ve made.”

Also he, perhaps surprisingly, went more with Rahm, and not Rory on the OGWR debate (Dubai)


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## evemccc (Nov 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT,  without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too.  Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.
		
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I don’t really pay attention to any pro golf except the Masters and the Open, and think primarily that golf is always more for playing > watching

I’m strongly against the Hundred in cricket so although several aspects of LIV doesn’t appeal at all, I have watched LIV on YouTube because it’s free - and had players I like more than most Tour pros (Cam Smith, DJ, Bryson)….I think the team element ‘could’ be good tho it certainly needs an evolution from what it is at present.
I have a lot more love for county cricket (in the arguments against the Hundred) than I do for the status quo in golf i.e. PGA Tour dominance, hence I am against the Hundred in cricket but pretty ambivalent about the ‘threat’ the PGA Tour faces from LIV.

I find a lot of the negativity towards LIV disingenuous and hypocritical when the PGA Tour’s actions and behaviour is considered in context

The majority of golf media and in this thread present the PGA Tour as ‘whiter than white’….and the criticism of LIV is plentiful…But because I call out a lot of BS about the PGA Tour doesn’t make me pro-LIV. I’d say I’m a mostly disinterested neutral


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## cleveland52 (Nov 29, 2022)

IainP said:



			On the subject on monsieur Woods, I wasn't expecting this. The news itself not so surprising (Covid was a big impact), but him being so candid ..

“The PGA Tour took out an enormous loan during pandemic. If we had another year of the pandemic, the PGA Tour wouldn’t have made it. The enormous loan worked in our benefit, hence we were able to use that money to make the [purse] increases we’ve made.”

Also he, perhaps surprisingly, went more with Rahm, and not Rory on the OGWR debate (Dubai)
		
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I think that TW was wrong about the loan part. I think that they used their reserves.

If we use the Rahm logic then the Hero world Challenge would get the most point ever, with 17 of the top 25 playing.  ......In a 20 man field.


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## IainP (Nov 29, 2022)

Yes you are correct,  this came after.
Tough to keep up!

PGA Tour has responded to Woods’ claim. He wrote: “The PGA Tour clarified today that it did not take out a loan to deal with the pandemic in 2020, as Tiger said during his news conference. The Tour used reserves and “mitigating actions” and would have seen a significant reduction in reserves w/o a return to golf in June 2020.”


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

Oddly enough, wasn't he responing to Phil Mickelsons claim that the tour had large cash reserves? Phil has obviously been castigated as a bit of a bad apple in all this, but doesn't this prove him right on this particular matter?


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## cleveland52 (Nov 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Oddly enough, wasn't he responing to Phil Mickelsons claim that the tour had large cash reserves? Phil has obviously been castigated as a bit of a bad apple in all this, but doesn't this prove him right on this particular matter?
		
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No, I think that he was responding to someone owing Phil an apology.....


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 29, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			No, I think that he was responding to someone owing Phil an apology.....
		
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_He also claimed the tour would not have survived if the pandemic had continued for another year when he was asked about Phil Mickelson, who previously accused it of hoarding money._

_Asked whether Mickelson was owed “an apology” after he was effectively ostracised from the game, Woods replied: “No, absolutely not, no. We took out an enormous loan during the pandemic in which that -- if we had another year of the pandemic, our Tour would only be sustained for another year._

So Phil said the tour was hoarding money, Tiger said it wasn't and it had to take a loan, which has since been denied by the PGAT

Seems to me Phil is more 'on the money' than Tiger on this occasion.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 29, 2022)

One person calls it 'hoarding money'. Someone else might view it as a sensible and pragmatic business decision to retain a reserve which ensured the tour could survive an unforeseen situation such as a pandemic.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



_He also claimed the tour would not have survived if the pandemic had continued for another year when he was asked about Phil Mickelson, who previously accused it of hoarding money._

_Asked whether Mickelson was owed “an apology” after he was effectively ostracised from the game, Woods replied: “No, absolutely not, no. We took out an enormous loan during the pandemic in which that -- if we had another year of the pandemic, our Tour would only be sustained for another year._

So Phil said the tour was hoarding money, Tiger said it wasn't and it had to take a loan, which has since been denied by the PGAT

Seems to me Phil is more 'on the money' than Tiger on this occasion.
		
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No, the money was taken from the reserve......thank goodness there was a reserve.
That's common knowledge ......Tiger just misspoke.


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## cleveland52 (Nov 30, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			One person calls it 'hoarding money'. Someone else might view it as a sensible and pragmatic business decision to retain a reserve which ensured the tour could survive an unforeseen situation such as a pandemic.
		
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Well stated above.......You can tell the ones on this board living paycheck to paycheck and don't know the meaning of rainy-day funds.....LOL! (I kid, I kid)


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## cleveland52 (Nov 30, 2022)

This just in:
In his response to Tigers presser......

Phil said that the PGAT was sitting on $800M in reserve cash and that's Illegal.
Phil is wrong, period. A nonprofit  can and should have a reserve for unexpected emergencies.
There is no limit to how much a nonprofit can have in reserve......I do believe.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 30, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			One person calls it 'hoarding money'. Someone else might view it as a sensible and pragmatic business decision to retain a reserve which ensured the tour could survive an unforeseen situation such as a pandemic.
		
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Absolutely fine.

So they've survived the pandemic, and now, while most people, businesses and countries are still paying off the bill they racked up during said pandemic, the PGA Tour have found a load more money sitting around to increase their purses, and invest in other tours, despite the clear and obvious financial hit that have coming from both the consequences of LIV, and from the global economy. 

As I understand it, non profits sitting on cash reserves to cover operating expenses is totally legitimate, but certainly in the UK, hardly anybody would have survived the pandemic withouy government assistance - I suspect it was the same in the US? Maybe the PGAT had financial government assistance also, I honestly wouldn't know, but if they did - then it weakens the argument about the necessity of hoarding cash reserves, and if they didn't - then they must have had plenty of cash sitting around.


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## Backsticks (Nov 30, 2022)

The LIV argument would have more credibility if it didnt engage in mudlsinging at tge PGAT. It gives the impression that the Saudi tour case is not strong enough in its own merits, but needs to also take shots at tge PGAT to justify itself. 
Everyone from Greg, the defected players, to internet posters.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			The LIV argument would have more credibility if it didnt engage in mudlsinging at tge PGAT. It gives the impression that the Saudi tour case is not strong enough in its own merits, but needs to also take shots at tge PGAT to justify itself.
Everyone from Greg, the defected players, to internet posters.
		
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I don't think questioning comments made about Tiger and Phil over the PGAT financials is mudslinging mate - if that's the level of debate you are going to, it's time for you to exit - you won't of course, you're just here for the wummery in the main.


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## Dando (Nov 30, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I don't think questioning comments made about Tiger and Phil over the PGAT financials is mudslinging mate - if that's the level of debate you are going to, it's time for you to exit - you won't of course, you're just here for the wummery in the main.
		
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Once again you twist what was said to suit your agenda!

Backsticks never mentioned LIV mudslinging about PGAT financials as they started it long before then


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## JamesR (Nov 30, 2022)




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## Mel Smooth (Nov 30, 2022)

Dando said:



			Once again you twist what was said to suit your agenda!

Backsticks never mentioned LIV mudslinging about PGAT financials as they started it long before then
		
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So what mudslinging are we referring to then?


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## TheBigDraw (Nov 30, 2022)

Harry Higgs on the No Laying Up Podcast. 

"If Liv decides to change its model and double its field then its bye bye PGA Tour, we have put ourselves in a vulnerable position" 

"the only reason Tiger and Rory are talking about comprimise talks with Liv can be that they have access to higher level information than we do"


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Harry Higgs on the No Laying Up Podcast.

"If Liv decides to change its model and double its field then its bye bye PGA Tour, we have put ourselves in a vulnerable position"

"the only reason Tiger and Rory are talking about comprimise talks with Liv can be that they have access to higher level information than we do"
		
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Possibly, but what are the chances that they will double their field, to get more big names it would cost a few billion more, plus those who have not already gone will probably require a lot of convincing


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 30, 2022)

Is this thread hidden?


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## Bdill93 (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Is this thread hidden?
		
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Its the top thread in the lounge?


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## Imurg (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Is this thread hidden?
		
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You may have accidentally (or otherwise) put the OP (Mark) on ignore.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 30, 2022)

As widely rumoured,  Sentosa, Mayakoba and Valderamma are 3 of the confirmed venues for 2023.

Valderamma is a great venue for them, obviously hardly breaking news they were going there.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 30, 2022)

Imurg said:



			You may have accidentally (or otherwise) put the OP (Mark) on ignore.
		
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Woops 

Thank you. Sorry Mark!

Only about 100 pages to catch up on...


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## BrianM (Dec 1, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598083919777333249
Jon Rahm has basically said what Phil Mickelson said months ago.
At least he speaks his mind!!


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## cleveland52 (Dec 1, 2022)

BrianM said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598083919777333249
Jon Rahm has basically said what Phil Mickelson said months ago.
At least he speaks his mind!!
		
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I think that Rahm has received an offer from LIV recently.....


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## JRS7 (Dec 1, 2022)

LIV Golf is good for Golf, not bad.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 1, 2022)

BrianM said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598083919777333249
Jon Rahm has basically said what Phil Mickelson said months ago.
At least he speaks his mind!!
		
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Rahm defo doesn't tow the Woods/McIlroy party line when it comes to Liv. 

Saying they should be thankful to Liv and Liv Golfers should be available for Ryder Cup selection is polar opposite to Rorys stance.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 1, 2022)

If Phil M is right that the PGA Tour has been sitting on 800million and some of it has only been released because of Liv then that will bring some resentment from the players. 

Tiger is saying they had to take a loan to get through the pandemic. 

Rest assured the journos will be digging deep to find the truth and it will all come out in the wash. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597625555939389440


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## Backsticks (Dec 1, 2022)

JRS7 said:



			LIV Golf is good for Golf, not bad.
		
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How ?

Its an unalloyed bad surely ?
The changes it prompted on the pgat for Rahm and co may be good for their bank balances. But LIV has still shorn a handful of top golfers from compeition with their peers. Thats bad for competition, bad for us fans. Its bad...


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Rahm defo doesn't tow the Woods/McIlroy party line when it comes to Liv.

Saying they should be thankful to Liv and Liv Golfers should be available for Ryder Cup selection is polar opposite to Rorys stance.
		
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Eugenio Chacarra has said that Luke Donald has spoken to him about playing in future Ryder Cups, given that Donald is the captain next year, you'd assume he was meaning that one - but obviously he's a young man so plenty of opportunities down the line. 

The Ryder Cup ban is laughable, it's incredibly petty. Shouldn't matter where players play, if they're good enough, they should be in the team - USA, or Europe. If DJ isn't in the US team in Italy, it will be a media sh!tstorm - the guy is one of the top dozen players in the world, let alone the USA.

Rahm has always remained level headed throughout this period in golf, hopefully ho words reach the people that matter.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			How ?

Its an unalloyed bad surely ?
The changes it prompted on the pgat for Rahm and co may be good for their bank balances. But LIV has still shorn a handful of top golfers from compeition with their peers. Thats bad for competition, bad for us fans. Its bad...
		
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Zzzzzzzzz

Those "top players" will ALL compete in the majors - the actual events that people really care about - you've even made that point repeatedly on this thread.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 1, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			How ?

Its an unalloyed bad surely ?
The changes it prompted on the pgat for Rahm and co may be good for their bank balances. But LIV has still shorn a handful of top golfers from compeition with their peers. Thats bad for competition, bad for us fans. Its bad...
		
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We are where we are because of actions on both sides. 
The PGA Tour got their reaction all wrong because they thought no top players would leave their tour. 
If they had negotiated right at the start when they held all the cards and all the players they could have held onto the players and had their events in the main season round the majors. Liv at that time would have just been happy to be accepted into the golfing calendar in any way. 

Liv did nothing wrong by starting a new tour and simply offering players a new place of employment. This rhetoric that its all Livs fault is wrong, it obviously played a major part but both sides have responsibility for where we have ended up.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 1, 2022)

The OWGR is so messed up.. 

Last time out they were saying the PGA Event got more points than the DPWT Championship because there were more players in the field. 

This week we have this 🙈

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598336732616876034


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## BiMGuy (Dec 1, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			The OWGR is so messed up..

Last time out they were saying the PGA Event got more points than the DPWT Championship because there were more players in the field.

This week we have this 🙈

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598336732616876034

Click to expand...

Come on. The field in Australia is weaker than a brew made with a second hand teabag.


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## cleveland52 (Dec 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Come on. The field in Australia is weaker than a brew made with a second hand teabag.
		
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LOL!......There're high school teams stronger than the fields in Australia and South Africa.

Yet, some can't help but get emotional and misty eyed over the weak points these tournaments deserve.

It's downright embarrassing.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Come on. The field in Australia is weaker than a brew made with a second hand teabag.
		
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So was the last PGA Tour event but we were told it got strong points because it was a full field, 72 holes and a cut and the criteria for getting strong points was because you had to beat more people. 

Hero is an exhibition event, stupidly small field and no cut, you have to beat 19 people to win the Hero so that doesn't make sense based on what we were told last time out

The system is flawed, Rahm said so, Tiger said so, everybody says so, so it must be so 👍

In no time at all becoming no1 on OWGR will be meaningless unless they do something about it.


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## IainP (Dec 2, 2022)

cleveland52 said:



			I think that Rahm has received an offer from LIV recently.....
		
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I suspect many agents have been taking about offers, but I don't think Rahm is going in the short term. Think he is just observant on how it has already, and likely will affect him in 2023, plus not towing the Jay media line.

Did make me smile though, I reckon if Mel S had posted your post, in his often "excited puppy dog style", then half a dozen or so posters would have been triggered and would have piled in


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 2, 2022)

"Excited puppy dog" !!

I thought I was more of a snarling Rottweiler


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2022)

Just in case anybody missed it, there are a few that think the world ranking system is flawed. Just in case you missed the several thousand posts related to this earlier in the thread!

If you want a prediction as to how this thread will go over the next 3 months (until the next LIV event), you will hear a lot from LIV fans explaining how the World Ranking system is flawed and meaningless. They will provide lots of stats and comparisons to prove their point (after all, the people who post on this forum clearly have a lot more information and knowledge on this subject than the people who actually run and manage the system). Then, after 3 months of slating the system, once the first LIV event is over they'll be begging for LIV golfers to get World Ranking points.

Is there anything interesting actually being discussed in this thread at the moment? Like, what have the LIV golfers been up to since the last LIV event, and any ideas how they are filling the long gap until the end of February? Playing other golf events (except for the few that played the Oz Open), winter practice, court cases, family time, etc? If they are not playing any competitive golf until the end of Feb, thoughts on what their form will be like when they come back. Rusty, not "match fit"? Fresh and ready for action?


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## Imurg (Dec 2, 2022)

There's a few playing in SA at the moment.....


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## Dando (Dec 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just in case anybody missed it, there are a few that think the world ranking system is flawed. Just in case you missed the several thousand posts related to this earlier in the thread!

If you want a prediction as to how this thread will go over the next 3 months (until the next LIV event), you will hear a lot from LIV fans explaining how the World Ranking system is flawed and meaningless. They will provide lots of stats and comparisons to prove their point (after all, the people who post on this forum clearly have a lot more information and knowledge on this subject than the people who actually run and manage the system). Then, after 3 months of slating the system, once the first LIV event is over they'll be begging for LIV golfers to get World Ranking points.

Is there anything interesting actually being discussed in this thread at the moment? Like, what have the LIV golfers been up to since the last LIV event, and any ideas how they are filling the long gap until the end of February? Playing other golf events (except for the few that played the Oz Open), winter practice, court cases, family time, etc? If they are not playing any competitive golf until the end of Feb, thoughts on what their form will be like when they come back. Rusty, not "match fit"? Fresh and ready for action?
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine most of the LIV golfers are counting their money but Fatrick Read is also trying to work out what parcels he gets contain dog


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## IainP (Dec 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Just in case anybody missed it, there are a few that think the world ranking system is flawed. Just in case you missed the several thousand posts related to this earlier in the thread!

If you want a prediction as to how this thread will go over the next 3 months (until the next LIV event), you will hear a lot from LIV fans explaining how the World Ranking system is flawed and meaningless. They will provide lots of stats and comparisons to prove their point (after all, the people who post on this forum clearly have a lot more information and knowledge on this subject than the people who actually run and manage the system). Then, after 3 months of slating the system, once the first LIV event is over they'll be begging for LIV golfers to get World Ranking points.

Is there anything interesting actually being discussed in this thread at the moment? Like, what have the LIV golfers been up to since the last LIV event, and any ideas how they are filling the long gap until the end of February? Playing other golf events (except for the few that played the Oz Open), winter practice, court cases, family time, etc? If they are not playing any competitive golf until the end of Feb, thoughts on what their form will be like when they come back. Rusty, not "match fit"? Fresh and ready for action?
		
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Curious - your repeated use of "LIV golfers", is it your belief that a number of individual players are somehow grouped into some single form of behaviour? A bit like stereotyping, or various 'isms ?
In case you missed it, I'm fairly sure it has been discussed on the forum how some are playing in various events across 4 or so tours - obviously not the PGAT. And some seem to be not playing much.
In case you missed it, believe most of the recent world ranking chat has been around the August 2022 changes. Unless you are suggesting some conspiracy, I don't think those changes relate to LIV starting up. I think a lot of people thought the system was flawed prior to 2022, that might even be why it was changed!  Good luck with our prediction.
Are there really lots of "LIV fans" posting? Or perhaps mostly just some people who try to discuss things without heavy bias, conscious or unconscious.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			Curious - your repeated use of "LIV golfers", is it your belief that a number of individual players are somehow grouped into some single form of behaviour? A bit like stereotyping, or various 'isms ?
In case you missed it, I'm fairly sure it has been discussed on the forum how some are playing in various events across 4 or so tours - obviously not the PGAT. And some seem to be not playing much.
In case you missed it, believe most of the recent world ranking chat has been around the August 2022 changes. Unless you are suggesting some conspiracy, I don't think those changes relate to LIV starting up. I think a lot of people thought the system was flawed prior to 2022, that might even be why it was changed!  Good luck with our prediction.
Are there really lots of "LIV fans" posting? Or perhaps mostly just some people who try to discuss things without heavy bias, conscious or unconscious.  

Click to expand...

This is a LIV thread, right!? If so, I hope I'm not being criticised for mentioning "LIV golfers", as I thought this would be the perfect thread to discuss them, even though it seems to have now moved away from LIV completely, and now focusing on more general golfing issues.

So, I was trying to push the topic back towards LIV. I am genuinely interested in what LIV golfers are doing on their off season. I know some played in Oz, I got that discussion on this thread. But, I haven't really picked up a lot on other events they are playing. Whether many LIV golfers are playing all over the world, or if it is just a handful of them


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 2, 2022)

Poulter is being his usual modest self….



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598662845155004417


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## Backsticks (Dec 2, 2022)

Is LIVism a thing.

Characteristics of a cult : 

- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
- The group is preoccupied with making money.
- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
- The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (e.g., lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.


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## BrianM (Dec 2, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Is LIVism a thing.

Characteristics of a cult :

- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
- The group is preoccupied with making money.
- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
- The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (e.g., lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
		
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Pretty much sums you up.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 2, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			S*o was the last PGA Tour event but we were told it got strong points because it was a full field, 72 holes and a cut and the criteria for getting strong points was because you had to beat more people.*

Hero is an exhibition event, stupidly small field and no cut, you have to beat 19 people to win the Hero so that doesn't make sense based on what we were told last time out

The system is flawed, Rahm said so, Tiger said so, everybody says so, so it must be so 👍

In no time at all becoming no1 on OWGR will be meaningless unless they do something about it.
		
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No one said that the 72 holes and a cut were the only reasons for the number of points awarded in that PGAT event.  Points are given in all events based firstly on the strength of the field with reductions for a lack of cut and for small fields.  This weeks Australian Open barely has a handful of top 100 players and includes a number of players outside the top OWGR top 2,000,  so it's plain to see why it had fewer ranking points,  I suggest you try opening your eyes.


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## cleveland52 (Dec 2, 2022)

IainP said:



			I suspect many agents have been taking about offers, but I don't think Rahm is going in the short term. Think he is just observant on how it has already, and likely will affect him in 2023, plus not towing the Jay media line.

Did make me smile though, I reckon if Mel S had posted your post, in his often "excited puppy dog style", then half a dozen or so posters would have been triggered and would have piled in  

Click to expand...

You're right, Rahm even doubled down on his commitment to the PGATOUR.

But, as we all know....all defectors do that right before the big announcement to LIV. LOL!


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 2, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			No one said that the 72 holes and a cut were the only reasons for the number of points awarded in that PGAT event.  Points are given in all events based firstly on the strength of the field with reductions for a lack of cut and for small fields.  This weeks Australian Open barely has a handful of top 100 players and includes a number of players outside the top OWGR top 2,000,  so it's plain to see why it had fewer ranking points,  I suggest you try opening your eyes.
		
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As I said, or asked in the other thread - the DPWT championships had a field strength of about 121 - 21 points for the winner. This weekends hit and giggle at the Hero, field strength about 130 - 29 points for the winner with a SMALLER field - how come the winner is getting such a strong points total from a similair field rating, if small fields equate to less points?

*on the events I checked - the usual points for the winner is around 17% of the field rating, at the Hero that shoots up to 23%.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2022)

Thought LIV Tour was supposed to be a “World Tour” 🤷‍♂️ - majority of the events in the US again ?


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## IainP (Dec 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 45419


Thought LIV Tour was supposed to be a “World Tour” 🤷‍♂️ - majority of the events in the US again ?
		
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I said last year (think you did also) I was disappointed to see so many in US. If that schedule is confirmed then I will be again.
As you have mentioned previously, with 3 majors in the USA and currently a big proportion of the cash + punters there also, it may be tricky short term to reduce but I think they should have tried.
The "World Tour" name is already taken 😉, and they currently by % have the most spread. Unsurprisingly the PGAT not so much.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 2, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			As I said, or asked in the other thread - the DPWT championships had a field strength of about 121 - 21 points for the winner. This weekends hit and giggle at the Hero, field strength about 130 - 29 points for the winner with a SMALLER field - how come the winner is getting such a strong points total from a similair field rating, if small fields equate to less points?

*on the events I checked - the usual points for the winner is around 17% of the field rating, at the Hero that shoots up to 23%.
		
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I'll say firstly that given the size of the field and that there does not seem to be a good sporting reason for it,  then I don't think this event warrants the breaking of the OWGR standard rules and therefore should not get ranking points. 
Now I am by no means an expert on the OWGR but as far as I can make out from reading the FAQs the field rating quoted for each tournament has already taken account of the field size and is the total number of points available for the tournament.  It then stands to reason that the winner of a smaller field will receive a higher percentage of the total points available than the winner of a larger field size tournament.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 45419


Thought LIV Tour was supposed to be a “World Tour” 🤷‍♂️ - majority of the events in the US again ?
		
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The reason the PGA Tour were so threatened by Liv was because they were playing in their back yard in their high season.

Maybe they have done it on purpose to maximise their disruption?
Maybe they have done it to help attract more US players which they are missing?

Who knows but they are defo targeting former PGAT/DPWT venues.


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## IainP (Dec 5, 2022)

Just to close off on some order of merits

Sihwan Kim topped the Asian tour OOM.
Scott Vincent topped the International Series,  which seems to have qualified him into the 2023 liv league.


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## AussieKB (Dec 15, 2022)

Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/


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## Bdill93 (Dec 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/

Click to expand...

So overall, unless they just get bored - its going nowhere


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/

Click to expand...

Did find this bit interesting 

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?” 

Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad then 👍

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point


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## Bdill93 (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did find this bit interesting

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?”

*Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad the*n 👍

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point
		
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They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them
		
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For those that throw the "sportswashing" argument about, I would love them to present us with a definitive list as to what countries we can play sport in, and which ones we cannot. Do we ban all sport from every Middle East country? What about African countries, or eastern Asia? Is South America OK, or do they have issues that make it not acceptable? And, is it all sport, or do we forgive the odd boxing match or Grand Prix? And, is it just sport, or are we talking all business?

I'm still a believer that going all over the world to play sport is, in the long run, more likely to improve humans rights issues, rather than promote abuse. I feel it is much better than turning the other cheek, and just letting other countries get on with whatever they want to do. It is unlikely they'll just say "please please sir, we have stopped doing bad things, can you come and play with us now". Expose nations that have strict regimes to our cultures, let their people see how we live our lives, and hopefully enough quite like the freedoms we have?

Don't get me wrong, I still don't like LIV and I don't think the World Cup should have gone to Qatar. But, both are for sporting reasons.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them
		
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I don’t “happily” see things happen in China or Dubai and many other feel the same , just look at the reaction to the Qatar World Cup amongst other things - people arent fans of human rights abuse regardless of what the country is and people aren’t fans of the rich countries using their money to try and sports wash 

The worst thing Golf did or European Golf is jump into bed with Middle East money


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## Backsticks (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I 

The worst thing Golf did or European Golf is jump into bed with Middle East money
		
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I am all in favour of it. Its just our own money that we gave them for oil, coming back to us.

The middle East and golf has been fine. And Saudi tournaments and money would have been fine too. Its the splitting of the tours top golfers that I have the problem with, degrading the elite golf competition product globally.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did find this bit interesting 

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?” 

Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad then 👍

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point
		
Click to expand...


Bear in mind, you’re quoting the opinion of a journalist there, rather than the opinions of the Saudis specifically. 

It looks to me like the Saudis know they need to change, and their expansion into sports is part of that change. 

It might take decades, or longer, but if they do change, that’s a good thing. 

A few hundred years ago (long after golf was invented) people in my area were hung for trying to smash up machinery, if they were lucky, they were sent on a boat to Australia. 200 years - that’s nothing in the lifespan of humanity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603843614626705408
seems to be a big blow for them


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2022)

No surprise to me.
Their business model makes no sense to me.
Norman must be laughing his socks off getting paid all that cash for such a desperately poor concept.


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## IainP (Dec 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603843614626705408
seems to be a big blow for them
		
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We'll probably never know whether he jumped or was push. If replaced wait to see if any change in direction/approach that may help to heal.
Edit - little more has come out...
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...m_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com

Unless I missed it, did seem like the Dunhill avoided much "who's in the field" drama, and winner Strydom benefited from the field strength.
Know some won't agree but it did seem like a nod to how things could have been.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 19, 2022)

Fire Drill Podcast reporting a OWGR board member has told Alan Shipnuck Liv will be awarded OWGR points around the time of The Masters. 

Huge news if true as it really legitimises Liv as a golf tour.


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## Backsticks (Dec 19, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Fire Drill Podcast reporting a OWGR board member has told Alan Shipnuck Liv will be awarded OWGR points around the time of The Masters.

Huge news if true as it really legitimises Liv as a golf tour.
		
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Not really huge, as it had to come. OWGR doesnt want to kill itself off. And LIV is most certainly a legitimate tour. The majors will adapt too, and invite the top handful of golfers in it when their existing entry exemptions expire.
LIV is somewhere between the Champions tour and the Kornferry, but made easier by the smaller field, so we should see them get points something like placing 11th and down from a Kornferry, boosted if more LIV golfers win majors, or existing top 30 rankers defect, although that road seems a dead end now.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Not really huge, as it had to come. OWGR doesnt want to kill itself off. And LIV is most certainly a legitimate tour. The majors will adapt too, and invite the top handful of golfers in it when their existing entry exemptions expire.
LIV is somewhere between the Champions tour and the Kornferry, but made easier by the smaller field, so we should see them get points something like placing 11th and down from a Kornferry, boosted if more LIV golfers win majors, or existing top 30 rankers defect, although that road seems a dead end now.
		
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It's huge because no OWGR is the main reason players are not willing to move across to LIV who are open to possibly doing so. 

If top 30 players are getting offered crazy signing on bonuses and there are pathways to the majors through OWGR or majors own criteria the more will be tempted to switch for sure. 

Fire Drill Podcast said OWGR board member said they had to act because of the strength of the Liv Tour field was skewing the accuracy of their rankings. 
Like you said they had to act to not kill itself off. 

If Champions Tour or Korn Ferry had no OWGR points it would not skew the rankings at all so with respect that speaks more to where Liv truely sits in the world of golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			It's huge because no OWGR is the main reason players are not willing to move across to LIV who are open to possibly doing so.

If top 30 players are getting offered crazy signing on bonuses and there are pathways to the majors through OWGR or majors own criteria the more will be tempted to switch for sure.

Fire Drill Podcast said OWGR board member said they had to act because of the strength of the Liv Tour field was skewing the accuracy of their rankings.
Like you said they had to act to not kill itself off.

If Champions Tour or Korn Ferry had no OWGR points it would not skew the rankings at all so with respect that speaks more to where Liv truely sits in the world of golf.
		
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Not sure Ranking points is the main reason people aren’t going to LIV 

There will be a whole list 

Also when they do get some level of points it’s going to be very small 

I suspect it’s far from any done deal unless LIV are making significant changes to move it away from being a closed invite only tour

I also don’t expect the Majors to make any changes of qualifying entry to allow any direct qualification from LIV events or OOM - the LIV tour is not sustainable and could just stop at any time


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## BiMGuy (Dec 20, 2022)

LiV event’s won’t get enough ranking points to attract more top players without the Saudis putting their hands in their pockets again.  54 hole events with small weak fields aren’t going to get many points.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 20, 2022)

Key point here is that OWGR needs to stay relavent to survive, that's been mentioned by people of both sides of the divide. 

OWGR has been forced to fast track points to Liv because they have key players slipping down its rankings making it look obselete. 

Rahm, Tiger and Rory have all said if Livs top players are outside the top 50/100 then it makes a mockery of OWGR. 

So on that rational if they award very few points to Liv and those players still slip down the rankings even though they are performing well on Liv then nothings changed and they continue to look inaccurate. 

For example If Cam Smith/DJ are winning multiple events on Liv and continue to drift down the rankings then OWGR is still struggling for relavence. 

If more top players move across to Liv then this becomes even more important for them. 

My opinion is that this balance is going to be very hard for OWGR to strike and leave it struggling for importance in the new world of golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Like Davis Love said, rank them by their earnings, bad golfers don't earn good money, and good golfers don't play for frig all. 

Essentially, it's the big money earners that everybody wants to see in The Majors, and one way or another, that is what we will see.


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## Backsticks (Dec 20, 2022)

Would that put Phil at number 1, and Tiger second  ?


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Would that put Phil at number 1, and Tiger second  ?
		
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No, but I think most people would still love to see Phil  and Tiger given the opportunities to play in Majors, wouldn’t they?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Like Davis Love said, rank them by their earnings, bad golfers don't earn good money, and good golfers don't play for frig all.

Essentially, it's the big money earners that everybody wants to see in The Majors, and one way or another, that is what we will see.
		
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Ohhh no, you are not getting back to trolling this thread again, are you? Or, is this a serious suggestion from you? Probably better to get confirmation from you, before anyone progresses to any sort of debate about this idea


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Like Davis Love said, rank them by their earnings, bad golfers don't earn good money, and good golfers don't play for frig all.

Essentially, it's the big money earners that everybody wants to see in The Majors, and one way or another, that is what we will see.
		
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Isn't the problem with that the money on offer for LIV events would skew the rankings too far in favour of LIV golfers? You'd have the same issue as now but in reverse with the top PGA tour players sliding down the rankings. No easy fix but some kind of compromise needs to be found.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Ohhh no, *you are not getting back to trolling this thread again,* are you? Or, is this a serious suggestion from you? Probably better to get confirmation from you, before anyone progresses to any sort of debate about this idea 

Click to expand...

No.

That's the way they used to be ranked, Davis Love suggested it was a solution, and there's an element of merit in it. In real terms, I suspect the best 10 golfers in the world this year will be round the top ten money earners - so it's arguably a more accurate rating than the OWGR


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the problem with that the money on offer for LIV events would skew the rankings too far in favour of LIV golfers? You'd have the same issue as now but in reverse with the top PGA tour players sliding down the rankings. No easy fix but some kind of compromise needs to be found.
		
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That is indeed correct, which is why I assumed Mel Smooth was simply trolling the thread to get a reaction.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That is indeed correct, which is why I assumed Mel Smooth was simply trolling the thread to get a reaction.
		
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Getting a reaction from you isn't exactly difficult bud.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			No.

That's the way they used to be ranked, Davis Love suggested it was a solution, and there's an element of merit in it. In real terms, I suspect the best 10 golfers in the world this year will be round the top ten money earners - so it's arguably a more accurate rating than the OWGR
		
Click to expand...

So, you guys have spent months and months telling us how unfair it is, given the likes of DJ and Cameron Smith are sliding down the rankings, telling us they are still a force in the world, and should still be high up the rankings.

Now, you are in favour of a system that makes Phil No.1 golfer in the world. Goodness knows how much many of the worst players on LIV have earned, but no doubt it is enough to rank them miles ahead of much better golfers on other tours?


Mel Smooth said:



			Getting a reaction from you isn't exactly difficult bud. 

Click to expand...

You clearly want it, why else post such things and get a wall of silence. Nor, I am sure, do you expect everyone to just say "yeah, that is the perfect solution, can't believe no one thought of it before and just implemented it"


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, you guys have spent months and months telling us how unfair it is, given the likes of DJ and Cameron Smith are sliding down the rankings, telling us they are still a force in the world, and should still be high up the rankings.

Now, you are in favour of a system that makes Phil No.1 golfer in the world. Goodness knows how much many of the worst players on LIV have earned, but no doubt it is enough to rank them miles ahead of much better golfers on other tours?

You clearly want it, why else post such things and get a wall of silence. Nor, I am sure, do you expect everyone to just say "yeah, that is the perfect solution, can't believe no one thought of it before and just implemented it"
		
Click to expand...

Well you could debate the point (granted you're starting to here) rather than just throwing accusations of trolling around.

The fact is, ranking players by what they've earned right now, is just as legitimate as ranking players by the OWGR.


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## Imurg (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well you could debate the point (granted you're starting to here) rather than just throwing accusations of trolling around.

The fact is, ranking players by what they've earned right now, is just as legitimate as ranking players by the OWGR.
		
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Okay......so that means Pat Perez is better than JT, Fitz, Burns and Schauffele ..............
See the problem?


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Okay......so that means Pat Perez is better than JT, Fitz, Burns and Schauffele ..............
See the problem?
		
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Yeah, it's innacurate - as is the OWGR.

If we did rank players by money lists by the way, the PGA tour would be dead in months, so it won't ever happen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well you could debate the point (granted you're starting to here) rather than just throwing accusations of trolling around.

The fact is, ranking players by what they've earned right now, is just as legitimate as ranking players by the OWGR.
		
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Is it really ?

So say LIV offer £10mil per event to the winner and someone like Poulter wins 3 of them does he then become number 1 because the prize money is higher 😳


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, it's innacurate - as is the OWGR.

*If we did rank players by money lists by the way, the PGA tour would be dead in months, so it won't ever happen.*

Click to expand...

Well, at least you have managed to see the big flaw in your logic then

P.S. I very much doubt the PGA would be dead. But, if would kill off the credibility of the OWGR a million times faster than you think is happening currently.


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## AussieKB (Dec 20, 2022)

It would be amazing for everyone to read there comments in a years time.....


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It would be *amazing* for everyone to read there comments in a years time.....
		
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Doesn't take too much for you to get excited


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it really ?

So say LIV offer £10mil per event to the winner and someone like Poulter wins 3 of them does he then become number 1 because the prize money is higher 😳
		
Click to expand...


Wouldn't happen would it? If we were ranking players for entry to majors by money lists, LIV would be THE place to earn that money, and Poulter wouldn't get a sniff of a win with the worlds best players wanting to be part of the action. 

It's a business model the PGA Tour have used to position themselves as the worlds number one golf tour for years, and the reason Poulter has made a nice living out of golf.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

The Masters just announced all eligible LIV players will be invited to participate. Good news.


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## C7usk (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The Masters just announced all eligible LIV players will be invited to participate. Good news. 

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It is indeed good news... Will add some extra spice for sure.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 20, 2022)

Great BBC podcast
THE LIV GOLF STORY. 

And to those wanting to know if there is a business model based on an expected RETURN on investment then move to 35 minutes for an explanation. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0dqb4xn


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Great BBC podcast
THE LIV GOLF STORY.

And to those wanting to know if there is a business model based on an expected RETURN on investment then move to 35 minutes for an explanation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0dqb4xn

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I thought there was someone on here saying the BBC ignored LIV?


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## JonnyGutteridge (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Like Davis Love said, rank them by their earnings, bad golfers don't earn good money, and good golfers don't play for frig all.

Essentially, it's the big money earners that everybody wants to see in The Majors, and one way or another, that is what we will see.
		
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I can’t quite put my finger on why you would agree with this statement.

LIV pays people just for turning up. You think that half the field (who are just phoning it in on a big fat retirement pension) should be accelerated up the world ranking points because of that?

As has been covered a million times, just because it has unlimited oil money thrown at it, it doesn’t make it special.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			It would be amazing for everyone to read there comments in a years time.....
		
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Yes and that could be equally valid for those who are very much in favour of LIV



Mel Smooth said:



			Wouldn't happen would it? If we were ranking players for entry to majors by money lists, LIV would be THE place to earn that money, and Poulter wouldn't get a sniff of a win with the worlds best players wanting to be part of the action.

It's a business model the PGA Tour have used to position themselves as the worlds number one golf tour for years, and the reason Poulter has made a nice living out of golf.
		
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surely it depends on how many players LIV allow or what - right now it’s very restrictive because of shotgun starts and many of the top players are on paid contracts so when does that stop because the business model for the PGAT is massively different because the level of prize money given out is only dependent on the money coming in from sponsers and Telly money etc - LiV business model is held up by PIF 



Mel Smooth said:



			The Masters just announced all eligible LIV players will be invited to participate. Good news. 

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They were never going to stop players playing in them just like all the majors last year , it’s not really news , their qualfiying criteria is staying the same for next year but it seems they are looking to change it for 2024 - there is the potential that they could change it to ensure LIV players can’t qualify 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They were never going to stop players playing in them just like all the majors last year , it’s not really news , their qualfiying criteria is staying the same for next year but it seems they are looking to change it for 2024 - *there is the potential that they could change it to ensure LIV players can’t qualify* 🤷‍♂️
		
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They've said that purely to pacifiy the PGA fanboys who will inevitably start getting upset at the prospect of LIV players competing in The Masters. ;-)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They've said that purely to pacifiy the PGA fanboys who will inevitably start getting upset at the prospect of LIV players competing in The Masters. ;-)
		
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I don’t think I have seen anyone “upset” at LIV players competing in any of the majors 🤷‍♂️

It’s strange that not getting banned seems to have turned into some victory for LIV , apparently that’s now going to see floods of top golfers joining when basically nothing has changed , there was no talk about LIV being banned etc


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think I have seen anyone “upset” at LIV players competing in any of the majors 🤷‍♂️

It’s strange that not getting banned seems to have turned into some victory for LIV , apparently that’s now going to see floods of top golfers joining when basically nothing has changed , there was no talk about LIV being banned etc
		
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It's a victory for proffesional golf, the sensible decision has been made, just like it has been for The Open.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			It's a victory for proffesional golf, the sensible decision has been made, just like it has been for The Open.
		
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It’s not a victory for anyone - it’s carrying on as normal for the majors , nothing changing , nothing special put in place , no changes in qualifying to satisfy any new tours - qualifying process the same as it was before LIV was started


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a victory for anyone - it’s carrying on as normal for the majors , nothing changing , nothing special put in place , no changes in qualifying to satisfy any new tours - qualifying process the same as it was before LIV was started
		
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So LIV is now part of the 'golf ecosystem' then? Surely if it's not changing anything with regard to The Majors, there's no logical reason to stop their players being awarded ranking points which could help them qualify for The Majors?


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 20, 2022)

By the way, Phil says nobody is getting upset about players comepeting in The Masters, but I'm pretty sure there were plenty complaining when LIV players were taking their rightful places in the BMW at Wentworth - even the players joined in, right?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV is now part of the 'golf ecosystem' then? Surely if it's not changing anything with regard to The Majors, there's no logical reason to stop their players being awarded ranking points which could help them qualify for The Majors?
		
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Can you name me one player who has qualified through their performances on the LIV tour to show that LIV is part of the “golf ecosystem” 🤷‍♂️

I’m confused how you have managed to equate the majors not changing to their current qualification to meaning LIV events getting ranking points ? Had something changed with required Ranking points criteria ?



Mel Smooth said:



			By the way, Phil says nobody is getting upset about players comepeting in The Masters, but I'm pretty sure there were plenty complaining when LIV players were taking their rightful places in the BMW at Wentworth - even the players joined in, right?
		
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Blimey you really do try left field examples trying to make some comparisons

Are you really suggesting it’s anywhere near the same ? 

Many people believed that the LiV players no longer had “rightful” places on any other tour event when they left said tour to chase the money


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## Backsticks (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They've said that purely to pacifiy the PGA fanboys who will inevitably start getting upset at the prospect of LIV players competing in The Masters. ;-)
		
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No, they have to revise it for 24 to let in the couple of LIV golfers who are needed for the Masters to remain credible, but will be losing their entry rights as recent major winners. Brooks, Bryson, for example. The Masters cant exclude them. Maybe with some low bar criteria, such as major winners within the previous 10 years who have a top 5 in a LIV exhibition or something. That would get the likes of Brooks in, but keep out the LIV filler material and golden oldies.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 20, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			So LIV is now part of the 'golf ecosystem' then? Surely if it's not changing anything with regard to The Majors, there's no logical reason to stop their players being awarded ranking points which could help them qualify for The Majors?
		
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That is one hell of a stretch even for you.  Those players already qualified for the Majors will play,  and I have yet to see anyone sensible within golf or on this forum suggest otherwise.  That doesn't make LiV itself part of the "golf ecosystem",  but rightly recognises the past acheivments of previous winners etc wherever they currently ply their trade , or not in the case of Sandy Lyle and others. 

As I have said many a time when LiV tournaments comply to OWGR requiremnts  their players will be awarded points.  There is also room for some compromise I suspect, but it will need a good deal of movement from LiV for that to happen and I have seen nor heard anything recently to make me consider changing my view.


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## AussieKB (Dec 20, 2022)

I await Rory's I mean the PGA pushback reply.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 20, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I await Rory's I mean the PGA pushback reply. 

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No one serious within the golfing community has been asking for anyone meeting the qualifying criteria for any major to be banned from playing majors next year or anytime going forward.  So why would you expect that to change now.


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I thought there was someone on here saying the BBC ignored LIV?
		
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They must have got wind of the hoard of anti liv trolls who've come out of the woodwork again to wind people up 🤣🤣🤣


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## AussieKB (Dec 20, 2022)

Heard Rory is LIVid


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## Jason.H (Dec 20, 2022)

Golf is a global sport. A win on European tour or Asian tour should bring the same points as PGA tour.  That would grow the game. Golfers wouldn’t feel the need to move to USA to benefit.


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2022)

Do you think any of the LIV guys....... 










Need a caddy?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Golf is a global sport. A win on European tour or Asian tour should bring the same points as PGA tour.  That would grow the game. Golfers wouldn’t feel the need to move to USA to benefit.
		
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That has to go down as one of the silliest suggestions I have seen on here.  Do you really think that the 4 majors would continue to deserve that status with only approximately a third of the world's truly top players involved?  Do you think Lee Westwood,  etc would have stayed this side of the pond earning a relative pittance purely to ensure better OWGR points?  How would having an OWGR system that rewarded mediocrity grow the game?


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 21, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			That has to go down as one of the silliest suggestions I have seen on here.  Do you really think that the 4 majors would continue to deserve that status with only approximately a third of the world's truly top players involved?  Do you think Lee Westwood,  etc would have stayed this side of the pond earning a relative pittance purely to ensure better OWGR points?  How would having an OWGR system that rewarded mediocrity grow the game?
		
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Yes I agree the points can't be the same for all events but right now it's too far the other way. 

No Laying Up Podcast highlighted under the OWGR points system we have now Tom Kim would not have made it to the PGA Tour and would still be relatively unknown worldwide still playing Japan and Asian tours. 

It's not possible now for the next Tom Kim to break through in that way and that's not good.. 

Think all parties have said the system is flawed right now and will be changed so it ranks ALL pro golfers effectively, if it doesn't then as Rory famously once said about Liv "It's dead in the water"


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes I agree the points can't be the same for all events but right now it's too far the other way.

No Laying Up Podcast highlighted under the OWGR points system we have now Tom Kim would not have made it to the PGA Tour and would still be relatively unknown worldwide still playing Japan and Asian tours.

It's not possible now for the next Tom Kim to break through in that way and that's not good..

Think all parties have said the system is flawed right now and will be changed so it ranks ALL pro golfers effectively, if it doesn't then as Rory famously once said about Liv "It's dead in the water"
		
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It wasn’t the ranking points that helped Tom Kim

He first of all played well enough in an Asian Tour event that was an Open Qualifier and that allowed him entry in the Open in 2020

Then he finished well on the Asian Tour and was able to gain entry into the Scottish Open  where is finished 3rd which then gained him entry into the Open , finishing top 50 - the two finishes gave him temp membership on the PGAT for a couple of events and after finishing in the top 10 in one gave him full tour membership and then he of course went onto win 

Playing well in tournaments gave Tom Kim the chance not ranking points and those same chances and opportunities are still there , the same pathway is still there


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 21, 2022)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes I agree the points can't be the same for all events but right now it's too far the other way.

No Laying Up Podcast highlighted under the OWGR points system we have now Tom Kim would not have made it to the PGA Tour and would still be relatively unknown worldwide still playing Japan and Asian tours.

It's not possible now for the next Tom Kim to break through in that way and that's not good..

Think all parties have said the system is flawed right now and will be changed so it ranks ALL pro golfers effectively, if it doesn't then as Rory famously once said about Liv "It's dead in the water"
		
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All parties, really?? I've yet to hear anyone representing the PGAT/The Open/The Masters/US Open or the PGA,  say such a thing.  Given that these make up a majority of the OGGR board and that the new system has only been in operation a few months I don't see it changing significantly next year.

It will only be dead in the water if the significant organisations represented on the OGWR board say it is dead in the water,  again I can't see that happening soon.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2022)

I hope the Masters put the "_want my cake and eat it_ gang" all out together first thing and instruct the "patrons" to turn their backs and hiss as they come through!  (Although I guess mooning wouldn't be advocated by the Master's Board??


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2022)

There will be no LIV,  DPWT or PGAT or any other Tour players at The Masters.....
Just Professional Golfers who have been invited 
But I can guarantee that, should one of the players aligned with LIV win it we....
A. Won't hear the last about it
B. There'll be a big song and dance about it
C. It will be used as evidence that the whole of LIV is the best Tour and has the best players.

I can also guarantee that none of the above will app,y should a member of any other Tour win it.


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## evemccc (Dec 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			There will be no LIV,  DPWT or PGAT or any other Tour players at The Masters.....
Just Professional Golfers who have been invited
But I can guarantee that, should one of the players aligned with LIV win it we....
A. Won't hear the last about it
B. There'll be a big song and dance about it
C. It will be used as evidence that the whole of LIV is the best Tour and has the best players.

*I can also guarantee that none of the above will app,y should a member of any other Tour win it.*

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Okay, I’ll bite

Let’s revisit this in 4 months time


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 21, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Okay, I’ll bite

Let’s revisit this in 4 months time
		
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Not sure there's a need to do that,  there have been three majors since the introduction of LIV,  all won by players not playing on that tour.  I don't recall any song and dance about it or anyone claiming as a result that it was prove that the PGAT is the best,  but go on prove me wrong.


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## Newtonuti (Dec 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			Do you think any of the LIV guys.......










Need a caddy?


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I'll give you a pint of Guinness, bag of pork scratchings and maybe even a halfway sausage roll to caddy for me on saturday


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2022)

Newtonuti said:



			I'll give you a pint of Guinness, bag of pork scratchings and maybe even a halfway sausage roll to caddy for me on saturday 

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I assume you have a tour bag and are playing for a $4mil pot?


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## Newtonuti (Dec 21, 2022)

Slab said:



			I assume you have a tour bag and are playing for a $4mil pot?


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I can get hold of a tour bag, and will be playing for a round of drinks in The Belfry bar, so won't be far off $4 million


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## cleveland52 (Dec 21, 2022)

The Masters just emboldened the Saudi backed LIV gang. Come play for us and you can still play the majors.

Please, please let a LIV player win the Masters......I just want to see the chaos at AGNC. LOL!


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## JonnyGutteridge (Dec 21, 2022)

The Masters were never going to exclude LIV players. I don't even know why it is news that LIV players will be invited, because that was always going to be the case - it's certainly not a win for LIV as is being made out, and it won't have any bearing on further players making the switch because every player would have already know they'd be able to play at The Masters.

I do have a feeling if it becomes a LIV v PGA shootout on Masters Sunday, you might see some Ryder Cup-esque celebrations and it could become a bit feisty out there...


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## AussieKB (Dec 21, 2022)

I don't know why all the worry about a LIV player winning a Major, they are all has beens and over the hill aren't they ?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 22, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			I don't know why all the worry about a LIV player winning a Major, they are all has beens and over the hill aren't they ?
		
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Maybe not all of them on they day they signed up to LIV. But, they are now, as we move into 2023


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## Swango1980 (Dec 22, 2022)

Had the Masters banned LIV players, that would have been a huge defeat to LIV. I never expected, nor wanted that to happen. But, now the Masters have confirmed they are maintaining their qualifying criteria and LIV players can play if they qualify, it is certainly not a victory for them. It is just life going on as normal in that regard.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

Has anybody on here actually claimed it was a victory for LIV?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Has anybody on here actually claimed it was a victory for LIV?
		
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While not using the word Victory you were certainly cheering in posts 9259, 9267 & 9269 as if it was.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			While not using the word Victory you were certainly cheering in posts 9259, 9267 & 9269 as if it was.
		
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Except I'm not, I've said it was good news, and good news for golf in general, never mentioned about it being good for LIV, let alone a victory for them. It also proves that LIV players can and should be included in the broader elements of proffesional golf - in this case, the majors.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Except I'm not, I've said it was good news, and good news for golf in general, never mentioned about it being good for LIV, let alone a victory for them. It also proves that LIV players can and should be included in the broader elements of proffesional golf - in this case, the majors.
		
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Victory for LIV, victory for professional golf...all I am saying is it is neither. It is just things continuing as before.


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## Beezerk (Dec 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			While not using the word Victory you were certainly cheering in posts 9259, 9267 & 9269 as if it was.
		
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You’d make an excellent LIV spin doctor 🤣


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Victory for LIV, victory for professional golf...all I am saying is it is neither. It is just things continuing as before.
		
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It is, which is good news, which is exactly what I said. The person who tried to 'spin' it into 'a victory for LIV' wasn't me, it was that fella from Liverpool....


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

Interestingly, there's a few LIV guys getting invites to The Masters for their OWGR rankings who wouldn't be anywhere near the top 50 using the comparible datagolf anaylsis - infact I'm sure I've read that they've maintained those positions by not playing OWGR events, but I'll stand corrected on that - I guess we just don't know as we've no idea how they would have faired had they not joined LIV.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Except I'm not, I've said it was good news, and good news for golf in general, never mentioned about it being good for LIV, let alone a victory for them. It also proves that LIV players can and should be included in the broader elements of proffesional golf - in this case, the majors.
		
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"So LIV is now part of the 'golf ecosystem' then?"   Here you are saying things have changed in favour of LiV,  aka a victory for LiV have you not?  As I said in my reply to that post things have not changed,  the Masters like all the other Majors have not, rightly in my view,  changed their qualifying criteria.   In other words, they are simply ignoring LiV,  not recognising it one way or the other.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			"So LIV is now part of the 'golf ecosystem' then?"   Here you are saying things have changed in favour of LiV,  aka a victory for LiV have you not?  As I said in my reply to that post things have not changed,  the Masters like all the other Majors have not, rightly in my view,  changed their qualifying criteria.   In other words, they are simply ignoring LiV,  not recognising it one way or the other.
		
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It is part of the golf ecosystem, LIV players are now playing all over the world, on different tours, with the exception of one. 12months ago, LIV didn't exist - it was dead in the water according to one prolific voice...
The only thing it's not part of, is the OWGR - which has been exposed to be hugely questionable over it's accuracy (not just because of LIV I might add).
It's been a succesful opening year for the series, and it appears to me, that many in the world of golf are now accepting that it will be around for sometime, so, again - it's part of the ecosystem.

It's not a victory, because there needn't be a battle to be victorious in - more golfers, playing more golf, is good for golf - although I accept the PGA loyalists will disagree.


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## Imurg (Dec 22, 2022)

From what I saw Louis, Kokrack and Na would have been outside the top 50 under the old system of OWGR whereas they creep in at 48,49 and 50 under the new system.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 22, 2022)

Imurg said:



			From what I saw Louis, Kokrack and Na would have been outside the top 50 under the old system of OWGR whereas they creep in at 48,49 and 50 under the new system.
		
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That's probably what I read actually, the old system actually weighted non PGA Tour players more - so the new system is 'fairer' - to those playing on the PGA Tour.


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Louis Osteheizen is a proper golfer…by that I mean he plays well at the Open, the US Open and at Augusta, more often than not

How he fares at the Waste Management and the John Deere Classic, I care not 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Dec 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Louis Osteheizen is a proper golfer…by that I mean he plays well at the Open and at Augusta, more often than not

How he fares at the Waste Management and the John Deere Classic, I care not 🤣
		
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Does he?

Since his Open win in 2010, he has had one 2nd and 1 3rd. Apart from that, best finish 19th and missed cut 3 times.

In same time, he came 2nd in Masters once, in 2012. Never in top 10 otherwise, crept in top 20 3 times and missed cut a couple of times.

He is definitely better than me. But, with that record, I guess there must be a lot of "proper" golfers out there?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 22, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



*It is part of the golf ecosystem*, LIV players are now playing all over the world, on different tours, with the exception of one. 12months ago, LIV didn't exist - it was dead in the water according to one prolific voice...
.
		
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So why the word "now",  clearly indicating that something had changed?  And why the dozen or so posts since the Master's announcement was made?


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Does he?

Since his Open win in 2010, he has had one 2nd and 1 3rd. Apart from that, best finish 19th and missed cut 3 times.

In same time, he came 2nd in Masters once, in 2012. Never in top 10 otherwise, crept in top 20 3 times and missed cut a couple of times.

He is definitely better than me. But, with that record, I guess there must be a lot of "proper" golfers out there?
		
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I meant to include US Open also

And yes, I do think he does have a Big Boy Major record relative to the vast majority of PGA Tour golfers 😜


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Does he?

Since his Open win in 2010, he has had one 2nd and 1 3rd. Apart from that, best finish 19th and missed cut 3 times.

In same time, he came 2nd in Masters once, in 2012. Never in top 10 otherwise, crept in top 20 3 times and missed cut a couple of times.

He is definitely better than me. But, with that record, I guess there must be a lot of "proper" golfers out there?
		
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1st, 2nd, 3rd in the Open
2nd (twice), and 3rd in the US Open,
2nd in the Masters
2nd in the PGA Champs 

says he’s a ‘proper’ golfer and certainly better than you 😜🤪🤣


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## JamesR (Dec 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Does he?

Since his Open win in 2010, he has had one 2nd and 1 3rd. Apart from that, best finish 19th and missed cut 3 times.

In same time, he came 2nd in Masters once, in 2012. Never in top 10 otherwise, crept in top 20 3 times and missed cut a couple of times.

He is definitely better than me. But, with that record, *I guess there must be a lot of "proper" golfers out there?*

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Of course there are, any week one of about 50 has a more than reasonable chance of winning.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			1st, 2nd, 3rd in the Open
2nd (twice), and 3rd in the US Open,
2nd in the Masters
2nd in the PGA Champs

says he’s a ‘proper’ golfer and certainly better than you 😜🤪🤣
		
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Not sure if you are looking for an argument, as I was simply asking a question. The reason for my question was that his record does not appear overly brilliant compared to many other of the world's top golfers. You specifically only mentioned 2 of the Majors, I was wondering why? It simply appears to have been an error of communication on your part, no problem.

But, no idea what "proper" golfer means. Could argue that any professional golfer who has played on the main tours is a "proper" golfer. Some might even say their county amateur champion, or even club champion is a "proper" golfer, or the 10 handicapper who usually features in the top 10 of the monthly medal. 

Everyone will have a different set of parameters to define a "proper" golfer. I was trying to figure out yours. If Louis is a "proper" golfer (and I agree, he has had some good performances over the years), then we could probably write a very long list of others who meet that definition.


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## Backsticks (Dec 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Louis Osteheizen is a proper golfer…by that I mean he plays well at the Open, the US Open and at Augusta, more often than not

How he fares at the Waste Management and the John Deere Classic, I care not 🤣
		
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Both of those being significantly more competitive than a LIV event, would you care even less how he fares in a LIV, and pretty much, regard LIV events as entirely worthless ?


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not sure if you are looking for an argument, as I was simply asking a question. The reason for my question was that his record does not appear overly brilliant compared to many other of the world's top golfers. You specifically only mentioned 2 of the Majors, I was wondering why? It simply appears to have been an error of communication on your part, no problem.

But, no idea what "proper" golfer means. Could argue that any professional golfer who has played on the main tours is a "proper" golfer. Some might even say their county amateur champion, or even club champion is a "proper" golfer, or the 10 handicapper who usually features in the top 10 of the monthly medal.

Everyone will have a different set of parameters to define a "proper" golfer. I was trying to figure out yours. If Louis is a "proper" golfer (and I agree, he has had some good performances over the years), then we could probably write a very long list of others who meet that definition.
		
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Definitely not looking for any argument - my post was to stress that (IMO) Louis Ostheizen is able to peak at majors and has a track record of performing at Majors which is certainly better than your average run of the mill PGA Tour player —- as evidenced above 

This is in the context of this thread, which is about LIV golf - and LIV golfers — and the persistent narrative has been, laughably, that nearly all golfers on the LIV tour are ‘past it’ and basically no loss whatsoever 

Your post, to which I responded, depicts Louis Ost as basically no better than a standard PGA Tour player 

His record is a lot better than you’re suggesting - esp on the hardest courses when the comp is at its most fierce


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Both of those being significantly more competitive than a LIV event, would you care even less how he fares in a LIV, and pretty much, regard LIV events as entirely worthless ?
		
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Seriously?? Please don’t create arguments about what you think I have said


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## Backsticks (Dec 22, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Seriously?? Please don’t create arguments about what you think I have said
		
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Are you saying that you are only interested on majors, or only majors determine a golfers ranking  ?


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## evemccc (Dec 22, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Are you saying that you are only interested on majors, or only majors determine a golfers ranking  ?
		
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I, personally, don’t really care at all about tour golf…I personally only really care about the majors and I only watch the Open and the Masters 

I think that performances in majors when the fields are strongest and on major-courses is a v good indicator of how good a player’s golf CV is….but I don’t want to get into rankings because I’m not invested in tour golf


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## AussieKB (Dec 22, 2022)

Louis compared to a lot of players in the Hall of Fame is well positioned, there are guys in there who have not won a Major, so I would think he is rated better than a tour pro who has not won a Major IMO.


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## Beezerk (Dec 23, 2022)

evemccc said:



			I, personally, don’t really care at all about tour golf…I personally only really care about the majors and I only watch the Open and the Masters

I think that performances in majors when the fields are strongest and on major-courses is a v good indicator of how good a player’s golf CV is….but I don’t want to get into rankings because I’m not invested in tour golf
		
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Do not feed the troll.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 23, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Louis compared to a lot of players in the Hall of Fame is well positioned, there are guys in there who have not won a Major, so I would think he is rated better than a tour pro who has not won a Major IMO.
		
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Personally, I'd have placed Lee Westwood higher than Louis in the list of better golfers over their careers. Same with Colin Montgomerie


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## AussieKB (Dec 23, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Personally, I'd have placed Lee Westwood higher than Louis in the list of better golfers over their careers. Same with Colin Montgomerie
		
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Cannot remember which Major they won ? but Motny got into the Hall on winning in Europe.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 23, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			Cannot remember which Major they won ? but Motny got into the Hall on winning in Europe.
		
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They didn't, which is exactly why I used them as an example in my response, funnily enough


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2022)

Louis Oosthuizen is a World Class player and has been for a decade, he is major winner and has been close a number of other times , prob should have got over the line a couple more times 

He has a career that Westwood and Montgomerie would swap because he has the claret jug as a trophy


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## Swango1980 (Dec 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Louis Oosthuizen is a World Class player and has been for a decade, he is major winner and has been close a number of other times , prob should have got over the line a couple more times

He has a career that Westwood and Montgomerie would swap because he has the claret jug as a trophy
		
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Absolutely no doubt he has been a world class player, and had a career many would be envious of.

Whether he has had a better career than Westwood or Monty or not is simply personal opinion. 

Certainly no one can speak on behalf of Westwood. I doubt he'd swap his career for Todd Hamilton's, so it clearly isn't as simple as comparing Major wins. I know he'd have absolutely loved one, like all players, but he has had some unbelievable highs, including the Ryder Cup. Would he sacrifice his Ryder Cup appearances for one Claret Jug? I doubt it.


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He has a career that Westwood and Montgomerie would swap because he has the claret jug as a trophy
		
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True...


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## evemccc (Dec 26, 2022)

I cannot believe many would rather have some Ryder Cup appearances over a Claret Jug….but each to their own I suppose

Maybe I think that because I’m not hugely interested in the Ryder Cup or modern Ryder Cup courses - whereas for me The Open is the pinnacle of golf and I’m interested in Open history - and for Open courses I’m fully 😍


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## TheBigDraw (Dec 26, 2022)

Liv Events Earnings Versus Drop In The OWGR rankings list


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## IanM (Dec 26, 2022)

Never heard of the bottom bloke, but he has 7 million reasons not to care about rankings


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## cleveland52 (Dec 26, 2022)

IanM said:



			Never heard of the bottom bloke, but he has 7 million reasons not to care about rankings

Click to expand...

Totally agree. They're all handsomely compensated and ranking points should be nothing but an afterthought.

All should just disappear and thank their lucky stars that they hit the lottery.

Peter Uihlein, $12.8M LOL!

Brendon Grace pocketed $16.6 million yet he continued to have his cake and eat it to by playing the DP World tour. Shameful, a starving tour player was deprived.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 28, 2022)

IanM said:



			Never heard of the bottom bloke, but he has 7 million reasons not to care about rankings

Click to expand...

If he gets off to a decent start in 2023, you may well see him at The Ryder Cup ;-)


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## IanM (Dec 28, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			If he gets off to a decent start in 2023, you may well see him at The Ryder Cup ;-)
		
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And me!


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## AussieKB (Dec 28, 2022)

*OWGR approves Mexican tour – and its 54-hole events – for world-ranking points*

How do you spell hypo.......


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 28, 2022)

AussieKB said:



*OWGR approves Mexican tour – and its 54-hole events – for world-ranking points*

How do you spell hypo.......
		
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https://www.golfchannel.com/news/ow...d-its-54-hole-events-world-ranking-points?amp

“
The approval ends a 16-month approval process for the Mexican tour, which conducts 54-hole tournaments with* 36-hole cuts while offering qualification via a qualifying school *and culminating its season with a no-cut championship. It also has hosted past events in conjunction with the PGA Tour Latinoamerica.

"As such, the Gira de Golf Professional de Mexicana is in keeping with long-standing OWGR eligibility and format criteria providing inclusion for professional tours at the development level with available ranking points commensurate with the format and anticipated fields," an OWGR release read.


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## cleveland52 (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.golfchannel.com/news/ow...d-its-54-hole-events-world-ranking-points?amp

“
The approval ends a 16-month approval process for the Mexican tour, which conducts 54-hole tournaments with* 36-hole cuts while offering qualification via a qualifying school *and culminating its season with a no-cut championship. It also has hosted past events in conjunction with the PGA Tour Latinoamerica.

"As such, the Gira de Golf Professional de Mexicana is in keeping with long-standing OWGR eligibility and format criteria providing inclusion for professional tours at the development level with available ranking points commensurate with the format and anticipated fields," an OWGR release read.
		
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Now imagine giving OWGR points to a tour that circumvents the process and demands favoritism. Such an act would make a mockery of the whole system.


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## evemccc (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.golfchannel.com/news/ow...d-its-54-hole-events-world-ranking-points?amp

“
The approval ends a 16-month approval process for the Mexican tour, which conducts 54-hole tournaments with* 36-hole cuts while offering qualification via a qualifying school *and culminating its season with a no-cut championship. It also has hosted past events in conjunction with the PGA Tour Latinoamerica.

"As such, the Gira de Golf Professional de Mexicana is in keeping with long-standing OWGR eligibility and format criteria providing inclusion for professional tours at the development level with available ranking points commensurate with the format and anticipated fields," an OWGR release read.
		
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So do you have a problem with 54 hole events that have a cut and qualifying, or don’t you?

With a cut and a Q-school is it ‘OK’ now?


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

I thought it was a 2 year application and qualification process...

Not that it matters, the Mexican tour points will be worthless anyway...




​


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			I thought it was a 2 year application and qualification process...

*Not that it matters, the Mexican tour points will be worthless anyway*...
		
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Not to the players involved. 

Your post,  as have many of your previous posts,  points to your complete lack of understanding of the OWGR.  It is designed to provide a ranking system for the circa 2500 players across the world that play in international competition.  The development aspect is fundamental to it and not merely an add-on,  otherwise, how would professional golfers ever progress to the top 200?  Development tours are generally 54 events and are therefore awarded ranking points on that basis.  Perhaps you see LiV as a development tour and it being awarded points on that basis. 

As I have said many a time and you continue to ignore me, I see a route to the LiV tour gaining membership of the OWGR  but it will require negotiation and some changes to the LiV model, both of which seem a long way from forthcoming to me.

In any walk of life if you want to be part of an "eco system" then you need to walk towards it,  I have seen nothing from LiV in the last 12 months that indicates they have any desire to do that.  I am guessing that is largely due to GN and not the PiV,  when they see that the current model is not working for them they will get rid of GN and then there may be movement but until then I see nothing changing with regard to either OWGR or major qualification. 


​


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## AussieKB (Dec 29, 2022)

What a load of codswallop.....you cannot give points for 54 hole events, but now you can, and the excuses just come on coming.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Not to the players involved.

Your post,  as have many of your previous posts,  points to your complete lack of understanding of the OWGR.  It is designed to provide a ranking system for the circa 2500 players across the world that play in international competition.  The development aspect is fundamental to it and not merely an add-on,  otherwise, how would professional golfers ever progress to the top 200?  Development tours are generally 54 events and are therefore awarded ranking points on that basis.  Perhaps you see LiV as a development tour and it being awarded points on that basis.

As I have said many a time and you continue to ignore me, I see a route to the LiV tour gaining membership of the OWGR  but it will require negotiation and some changes to the LiV model, both of which seem a long way from forthcoming to me.

In any walk of life if you want to be part of an "eco system" then you need to walk towards it,  I have seen nothing from LiV in the last 12 months that indicates they have any desire to do that.  I am guessing that is largely due to GN and not the PiV,  when they see that the current model is not working for them they will get rid of GN and then there may be movement but until then I see nothing changing with regard to either OWGR or major qualification.


​

Click to expand...

Yeah, to the players involved it'll mean they know where they rank, but it will be meaningless other than that, but there will not be any golfer progressing to the top 200 from solely playing on that Mexican tour, I can guarantee it.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			What a load of codswallop.....you cannot give points for 54 hole events, but now you can, and the excuses just come on coming.
		
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You are absolutely brilliant at interpreting posts in completely the wrong way. There is literally no point in anyone having a debate with you, as you will never be able to grasp even the most basic points made.

Nobody said "you cannot give points to 54 hole events, end of story". It is incredible that is how you have understood that to be the case. 

If LIV is to be seen as a development tour, then I guess they can stick to 54 hole events and negotiate a small amount of world ranking points. I have absolutely no issues with that.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Yeah, to the players involved it'll mean they know where they rank, but it will be meaningless other than that, but there will not be any golfer progressing to the top 200 from solely playing on that Mexican tour, I can guarantee it.
		
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Well, exactly. Hence the reason it is a development Tour. It'll help them progress up the rankings in their own tour, if they get better, and open doors to bigger opportunities down the line. Career progression.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			What a load of codswallop.....you cannot give points for 54 hole events, but now you can, and the excuses just come on coming.
		
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The goalposts are moving faster than nuclear fission occurs mate, in case you haven't realised - all these exemptions to the OWGR 'rules' were put in place to accomodate all the minor tours and hit and giggle events that exist within the  "golf ecosystem", so they could give points to invitational events and no cut events. But of course, LIV has to go to 72 holes with a cut and qualification if they are to be even considered for points according to some of the numpties on here ;-)


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, exactly. Hence the reason it is a development Tour. It'll help them progress up the rankings in their own tour, if they get better, and open doors to bigger opportunities down the line. Career progression.
		
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They'll get picked out by invite if they play extremely well. The points won't qualify them for anything.

In the same manner, Eugenio Chacarra may well get a Ryder Cup invite if he continues to play well on LIV, and maybe, he might get an invitation to a major in the not too distant future.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They'll get picked out by invite if they play extremely well. The points won't qualify them for anything.

In the same manner, Eugenio Chacarra may well get a Ryder Cup invite if he continues to play well on LIV, and maybe, he might get an invitation to a major in the not too distant future.
		
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And, one day, the LIV players might get an invite onto the PGA Tour, help improve their rise up the World Rankings again?

Maybe. Clearly the bad blood between the PGA and LIV will not allow that Anytime soon. Getting rid of GN would probably help, he is an appauling representative of LIV. 

Or, if LIV adapt to allow proper qualification they might start to tick the box for ranking points on their own. However, to earn lots of ranking points, to keep their players contending for World Number 1, they will probably need to have many events with a lot more players, and look into 72 hole tournaments. Otherwise they are much closer to the format of a development Tour.

Not sure why there would be an objection going to 72 holes? Surely that just means you get to watch more golf, would LIV fans not like that?

I can maybe see a difficulty having more players, as it just means LIV either have to spend more money, or dilute the money going to individuals. Like having a cut, and only paying the top 48, or trimming the money going to top guys, so that the guys who finish last still get paid.


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2022)

Some of the "numpties" on here seem to have a lack of comprehension when it comes to the word Development....
With the lesser Tours, such as the Mexican, there is a clear pathway for a player to DEVELOP and, in time, qualify for bigger and better Tours.
These Tours are allowed to be over 54 holes.
Where is the progression from LIV?
Which Tour can DJ "progress" to..?
If there is a progression available then that will have fulfilled one of the criteria....is there one?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

evemccc said:



			So do you have a problem with 54 hole events that have a cut and qualifying, or don’t you?

With a cut and a Q-school is it ‘OK’ now?
		
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That was a cut and paste from the article giving the reasons why the Mexican Tour qualified for ranking points 🤦‍♂️

it’s always been “ok” for a “developmental” tour to play 54 holes providing they fulfill other areas of the criteria - cut , q school etc 

Nothing has changed 


AussieKB said:



			What a load of codswallop.....you cannot give points for 54 hole events, but now you can, and the excuses just come on coming.
		
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The Mexican Tour is a developmental tour so as per their criteria can be 54 holes ( the same as Mena tour etc )- come on at least try and grasp some level of understanding of how it works and why LIV currently doesnt get ranking points - and it’s not just because they only play 54 holes


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			If LIV is to be seen as a development tour, then I guess they can stick to 54 hole events and negotiate a small amount of world ranking points. I have absolutely no issues with that.
		
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A small point, but points should not be negotiated for. Its up to OWGR to allocate appropriate points for their own credibility and the usefulness of the rankings. Effectively, all tours should get something. According to level of player, depth of field, renown of the title, competitiveness of access to it, etc. So not up to liv to negotiate points, but owgr to allocate them something appropriate to a limited field, limited access, level of golfer between Campions and Kornferry, for tournaments of no heritage.


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Some of the "numpties" on here seem to have a lack of comprehension when it comes to the word Development....
With the lesser Tours, such as the Mexican, there is a clear pathway for a player to DEVELOP and, in time, qualify for bigger and better Tours.
These Tours are allowed to be over 54 holes.
Where is the progression from LIV?
Which Tour can DJ "progress" to..?
If there is a progression available then that will have fulfilled one of the criteria....is there one?
		
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To be fair, where is the progression path from the PGAT  ?

The only precedent we have seen, is to LIV...

Though thats more akin to 'development' to the Champions tour really.


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			To be fair, where is the progression path from the PGAT  ?

The only precedent we have seen, is to LIV...

Though thats more akin to 'development' to the Champions tour really.
		
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There isn't....that's why it's 72 holes etc etc...
This is not difficult to understand...


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They'll get picked out by invite if they play extremely well. The points won't qualify them for anything.

In the same manner, Eugenio Chacarra may well get a Ryder Cup invite if he continues to play well on LIV, and maybe, he might get an invitation to a major in the not too distant future.
		
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Well, no. Thats a DP Tour event, so he cant be invited to that. Are you serious !?!?!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The goalposts are moving faster than nuclear fission occurs mate, in case you haven't realised - all these exemptions to the OWGR 'rules' were put in place to accomodate all the minor tours and hit and giggle events that exist within the  "golf ecosystem", so they could give points to invitational events and no cut events. But of course, LIV has to go to 72 holes with a cut and qualification if they are to be even considered for points according to some of the numpties on here ;-)
		
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The goalposts haven’t moved at all - the Mexican Tour qualifies for points in the exact same way as the other developmental tours - what exactly do you think has moved ? 

Nothing has been “put in place” that wasn’t already there before this year 

LIV is not a developmental tour so it needs to follow the same criteria as the PGAT , DP tour , Asian Tour , Sunshine Tour 



Mel Smooth said:



			They'll get picked out by invite if they play extremely well. The points won't qualify them for anything.

In the same manner, Eugenio Chacarra may well get a Ryder Cup invite if he continues to play well on LIV, and maybe, he might get an invitation to a major in the not too distant future.
		
Click to expand...

Eugenio Chacarra will not be invited to any Ryder Cup until he is a member of the ET and is able to gain Ryder Cup qualification points 

Just like he won’t get an invite to the majors unless he qualifies via one of the many qualifiers


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## AussieKB (Dec 29, 2022)

The goalposts have moved that far I can see them out here in OZ....


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Imurg said:



			There isn't....that's why it's 72 holes etc etc...
This is not difficult to understand...
		
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I really dont know what you are trying to say with this post. Its difficult to understand.


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you explain which goalposts have moved 🤷‍♂️
		
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None have.
54 holes is no problem. Just appropriately reduced points. Or a 3rd of a field trippling ones chances of a win, etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			To be fair, where is the progression path from the PGAT  ?

The only precedent we have seen, is to LIV...

Though thats more akin to 'development' to the Champions tour really.
		
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There is no “progression” as such from the PGAT because it’s the pinnacle tour in the sport and it’s not a developmental tour hence why the majority of its events are required to be 72 holes and have to fulfill the majority of the requirements to gain OWGR 

Each sport has its pinnacle - the PGAT is the pinnacle in the sport


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## HeftyHacker (Dec 29, 2022)

This thread makes me feel as though I'm just a glutton for punishment. Its just cherrypicked points used to demonstrate one side of the argument or the other and the protangonists unable to/unwilling to understand any argument that doesn't support theirs.

Yet I'm still reading it.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

I thought WR points were defunct? Why are we getting upset?


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			Well, no. Thats a DP Tour event, so he cant be invited to that. Are you serious !?!?!
		
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Why can't he play on a DP Tour event?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			They'll get picked out by invite if they play extremely well. The points won't qualify them for anything.

*In the same manner, Eugenio Chacarra may well get a Ryder Cup invite* if he continues to play well on LIV, and maybe, he might get an invitation to a major in the not too distant future.
		
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You've surpassed yourself there and given further evidence that you know very little about professional golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Why can't he play on a DP Tour event?
		
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He hasn’t qualified for the Tour 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			You've surpassed yourself there and given further evidence that you know very little about professional golf.
		
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Have I really?

It seems the European RC captain may well be keeping his options open.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-star-reveals-contact-with-ryder-cup-captain-luke-donald


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

AussieKB said:



			The goalposts have moved that far I can see them out here in OZ....

Click to expand...

Go on then show me by reference to OWGR qualifying criteria where exactly the goalposts have changed.  I can't see at all how this Mexican Tour is being treated any differently from any other development Tour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have I really?

It seems the European RC captain may well be keeping his options open.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-star-reveals-contact-with-ryder-cup-captain-luke-donald

Click to expand...

He isn’t a member of the Tour so how can he play in the Ryder Cup 🤷‍♂️

If he leaves LIV , plays on the ET and qualified then he would play in the Ryder Cup but he has a grand total of zero playing rights on the ET so would need to find a way to qualify 

He won’t be at the Ryder Cup playing - no LIV player will be


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He isn’t a member of the Tour so how can he play in the Ryder Cup 🤷‍♂️

If he leaves LIV , plays on the ET and qualified then he would play in the Ryder Cup but he has a grand total of zero playing rights on the ET so would need to find a way to qualify

He won’t be at the Ryder Cup playing - no LIV player will be
		
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There's a court hearing in February that could drastically alter the landscape Phil. Matt Fitzpatrick has said this week that he wants the best European players in the RC team, and there'll be other players who feel the same - Rahm does for sure - both influential players I'm sure.

Never say never - by the time we get close to the Marco Simone event, things will have undoubtedly changed quite drastically.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Have I really?

It seems the European RC captain may well be keeping his options open.

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-star-reveals-contact-with-ryder-cup-captain-luke-donald

Click to expand...

Have you actually read the article,  if you have then you will have realised there is nothing in it that suggests he will be playing in next year's Ryder Cup?  Even if Luke wished to pick him,  he can't as he is not a member of the European Tour and I see no route to him becoming one while he continues on the LiV Tour,  do you in all seriousness?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There's a court hearing in February that could drastically alter the landscape Phil. Matt Fitzpatrick has said this week that he wants the best European players in the RC team, and there'll be other players who feel the same - Rahm does for sure - both influential players I'm sure.

Never say never - by the time we get close to the Marco Simone event, things will have undoubtedly changed quite drastically.
		
Click to expand...

The court case is irrelevant to him - he still has no playing rights on the ET 🤷‍♂️ - 

He hasn’t qualified to play on the ET , how is he going to manage to play any ET event 🤷‍♂️

Doesn’t matter what Fitzpatrick and Rahm want - they don’t make the decisions, the players managed to get a stay of execution but there is no doubt that the courts IMO will rule in favour of the Tour and not the players.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 29, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			This thread makes me feel as though I'm just a glutton for punishment. Its just cherrypicked points used to demonstrate one side of the argument or the other and the protangonists unable to/unwilling to understand any argument that doesn't support theirs.

Yet I'm still reading it.
		
Click to expand...

And same small few refusing to accept another point of view or give any ground. Sadly reminiscent of so many threads on here these days


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There's a court hearing in February that could drastically alter the landscape Phil. Matt Fitzpatrick has said this week that he wants the best European players in the RC team, and there'll be other players who feel the same - Rahm does for sure - both influential players I'm sure.

Never say never - by the time we get close to the Marco Simone event, things will have undoubtedly changed quite drastically.
		
Click to expand...

Even if the LIV players win their battle in the courts,  I don't see how it will help the likes of Mr Chacarera who has never been a member of the European Tour.  I just don't see how the courts could force the ET to accept future membership applications any more than it could force who LiV offered contracts to.


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 29, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Even if the LIV players win their battle in the courts,  I don't see how it will help the likes of *Mr Chacarera who has never been a member of the European Tour.*  I just don't see how the courts could force the ET to accept future membership applications any more than it could force who LiV offered contracts to.
		
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Are you sure?


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			There's a court hearing in February that could drastically alter the landscape Phil. Matt Fitzpatrick has said this week that he wants the best European players in the RC team, and there'll be other players who feel the same - Rahm does for sure - both influential players I'm sure.

Never say never - by the time we get close to the Marco Simone event, things will have undoubtedly changed quite drastically.
		
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Sergio has burnt his bridges with the Tour, Chacarra has no status as has been said, Stenson has more chance of flying around the world on a sparrow, Casey, Westy, Poults, Bland, Gmac, Larrazabal, Cantor and Kaymer have next to no chance of qualifying even if they were playing DPWT given the talent that is emerging...Wiesberger, Horsfield and Otaegui have an outside chance - that's it......there's nothing there that would improve next years Ryder Cup over what we already have.


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## Backsticks (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He won’t be at the Ryder Cup playing - no LIV player will be
		
Click to expand...

They will if profile players jump ship to LIV.

Like OWGR having to revise their system to reflect the performances of LUV players, the ET would have to revise the Ryder Cup eligibility to keep it relevant. But like the majors, they havent had to cross that bridge yet, as LIV has no Euro golfer that would be a miss to the team. As long as that remains the case, they can hold that line. But revise it, or move the goal posts if you want to spin it a certain way, if say Rahm, Hovland, Rory defected. They cant really afford it collapsing to a Walker Cup type profile and revenue as a historical curio only. But it looks like the RC is safe, and the Saudis that were going to jump, have jumped, and those there are rather up a blind alley.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 29, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Are you sure?
		
Click to expand...

Go on enlighten me


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## Dando (Dec 30, 2022)

Backsticks said:



			They will if profile players jump ship to LIV.

Like OWGR having to revise their system to reflect the performances of LUV players, the ET would have to revise the Ryder Cup eligibility to keep it relevant. But like the majors, they havent had to cross that bridge yet, as LIV has no Euro golfer that would be a miss to the team. As long as that remains the case, they can hold that line. But revise it, or move the goal posts if you want to spin it a certain way, if say Rahm, Hovland, Rory defected. They cant really afford it collapsing to a Walker Cup type profile and revenue as a historical curio only. But it looks like the RC is safe, and the Saudis that were going to jump, have jumped, and those there are rather up a blind alley.
		
Click to expand...

Why does every tour/tournament have
To change to satisfy LIV?


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## Backsticks (Dec 30, 2022)

Dando said:



			Why does every tour/tournament have
To change to satisfy LIV?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldnt agree with you that they do. Most tours and tournaments are unaffected by LIV.

The PGAT reconfigured the financials to beat off the LIV attraction, but most/all pgat players would say thats a good thing for them and was due anyway. It is probably better off now, and seems to have armoured itself from any damage from LIV, whose players look increasingly isolated and irrelevant. 

Smith is the one whose career seems to have been sunk, and it would have been nice to see how he developed, although there is often a tendency to overrate newbies to the major winners circle, as if the are going to roll on to multiple more. A side show will be interesting to see how his game keeps up in the majors, without other keen competition against his peers outside those 4, a bit like Bob Jones turning up for opens against the pros a hundred years ago.

The champions tour is probably the one hurting most - Harrington will have it easier there without Mickelson, for example. And LIV having failed to capture a critical mass of prime golfers, may continue hoovering the pre-champions category like Westy or McDowell. But thats just another minor tour, or exhibition circuit. It isnt really impinging upon the worlds best tournaments.


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## IainP (Jan 3, 2023)

MarkT said:



			Phil the Thrill is stepping away from the game for a while

The below is an interesting read from Alan Shipnuck whose interview/biography chat with Mickelson derailed the Saudi Golf League

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition/

Click to expand...

How time flies...

Phil rightly received a load of flak, but how many recall this quote:

"Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates."

First of the PGAT elevated events this week 'Tournament if Champions'. No Monday qualifying, field of 39, and no cut. Happy days to those invited 😁👍
Bit like the Champions League, over a quarter of the field didn't win on tour in 2022 🤔😉

Does feel right now that the momentum isn't with the LIV gang though, the DPWT decision may be key. I don't expect it to happen, but I would quite like an outcome which would lead to the likes of Dustin, Brooks, Pat,  etc. regularly teeing it up on DPWT. If, as expected, it doesn't go that way, I could maybe expect some extra money being thrown at the Asian Tour.

Have at it bots from all sides 🤣😅😉🎣


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## Mel Smooth (Jan 3, 2023)

No surprise that Billy Foster and Fitz share the same mindset on this one.

Veteran caddie Billy Foster on "dead" DP World Tour: "It's on its arse!" | GolfMagic


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2023)

Mel Smooth said:



			No surprise that Billy Foster and Fitz share the same mindset on this one.

Veteran caddie Billy Foster on "dead" DP World Tour: "It's on its arse!" | GolfMagic

Click to expand...

Maybe the players need to look at themselves for the reason why - all the top Europeans left to play in the US.

I wonder if the players will ever realise they have half the reason the ET is what it is currently 

Billy Foster can of course ask his Pro to play more in Europe if he wants 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jan 3, 2023)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe the players need to look at themselves for the reason why - all the top Europeans left to play in the US.

I wonder if the players will ever realise they have half the reason the ET is what it is currently

Billy Foster can of course ask his Pro to play more in Europe if he wants 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I expect he'd rather him play on LIV, wouldn't you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2023)

Mel Smooth said:



			I expect he'd rather him play on LIV, wouldn't you?
		
Click to expand...

Why would he rather play on the LIV tour ? 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Jan 3, 2023)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would he rather play on the LIV tour ? 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Better terms. 

If I was gonna pick a tour to earn a living as a caddy, I’d pick the LIV series. Foster has been there and done it all over the world with the best players in the world. Id imagine he’d quite enjoy a stint looping on LIV.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2023)

Mel Smooth said:



			Better terms.

If I was gonna pick a tour to earn a living as a caddy, I’d pick the LIV series. Foster has been there and done it all over the world with the best players in the world. Id imagine he’d quite enjoy a stint looping on LIV.
		
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Maybe he doesn’t need the money 🤷‍♂️ and wants to be at majors and Ryder Cup

And after listening to Billy at a couple of events then I suspect the last place he would be is LIV


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## JamesR (Jan 4, 2023)

Mel Smooth said:



			Better terms.

If I was gonna pick a tour to earn a living as a caddy, I’d pick the LIV series. Foster has been there and done it all over the world with the best players in the world. Id imagine he’d quite enjoy a stint looping on LIV.
		
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As he's still doing it with one of the best in the world he should have no reason to want to move.
It's the caddies of lessor players who should be more up for the move, if they get guaranteed income as a result.


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## Mel Smooth (Jan 4, 2023)

JamesR said:



			As he's still doing it with one of the best in the world he should have no reason to want to move.
It's the caddies of lessor players who should be more up for the move, if they get guaranteed income as a result.
		
Click to expand...


Some of the best players in the world also play on LIV, I suspect their caddies are pretty happy they are where they are. Unlike Phil, I don't personally know Billy Foster, and can't seem to find much on his views about LIV, other than he thinks the players should be allowed to compete in the Ryder Cup, which suggests to me, he's reasonably OK with it all.


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## Backsticks (Jan 4, 2023)

Caddies are irrelevant in the LIV discussion. Its hauling a bag. Of course they would like to be wherever they are best paid. Its not that they win anything anyway. Their role is closer to the group scoreboard carrier as far as the sport goes.


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## Slab (Jan 4, 2023)

^^^^^^^
Ouch!


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## Mel Smooth (Jan 4, 2023)

Slab said:



			^^^^^^^
Ouch!
		
Click to expand...

I was once asked to carry a scoreboard at the Car Care Plan International at Moortown in the mid 80's, along with my mates. We'd never heard of the players in the groups that we would have  been assigned to - but they could well have been pretty decent players of the day, so we declined. If only I'd known I was just a few short steps away from a potential career as a caddy working with some of the best players in the world - living the dream. Talking of dreams, Backsticks lives his life in one I reckon.


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## JamesR (Jan 4, 2023)

Mel Smooth said:



			I was once asked to carry a scoreboard at the Car Care Plan International at Moortown in the mid 80's, along with my mates. We'd never heard of the players in the groups that we would have  been assigned to - but they could well have been pretty decent players of the day, so we declined. If only I'd known I was just a few short steps away from a potential career as a caddy working with some of the best players in the world - living the dream. Talking of dreams, Backsticks lives his life in one I reckon. 

Click to expand...

Although Backsticks posts absolute rubbish on a daily basis, it can be that easy to become a caddy.
A lad from my place got a ET bag just because he was available one morning when attending an event. He kept it until getting into a fight with other caddies. His player was runner up in a major a few years later.
What could have been…


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## IainP (Jan 4, 2023)

One hope for 2023 is a little less hyphrocisy from parts of the media, and a wind down on the 'mud slinging' from players and administrators.
Just crack on, play golf, and what will be, will be.

Had to wry smile at this one, which was just after he'd played 12 holes in 'the match'!


Competitive and not an exhibition apparently 🤔

Whilst there are several things to criticise around the liv events, one thing that was quite refreshing was not having the constant TW fawning that seems to attach to every PGAT outing (it might have been different on SkyS, but I generally was watching US feeds). Now it isn't TW's fault the obsession with him, well apart from being flippin' good in his prime!

Have a good evening all.


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## evemccc (Jan 4, 2023)

IainP said:



			Now it isn't TW's fault the obsession with him, well apart from being flippin' good in
*his prime!*

Click to expand...

Which ended approx 15 years ago 🤣

‘Establishment golf’ and golf media  revolves itself around Tiger and Rory…

Zzzzz


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			Which ended approx 15 years ago 🤣

‘Establishment golf’ and golf media  revolves itself around Tiger and Rory…

Zzzzz
		
Click to expand...

Golf media talking about the best ever and best for the last decade. Who would have thought 🤷🏼‍♂️

Jack and Arnie get mentioned plenty of you watch enough golf. Shall we complain about them too?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 4, 2023)

BiMGuy said:



			Golf media talking about the best ever and best for the last decade. Who would have thought 🤷🏼‍♂️

Jack and Arnie get mentioned plenty of you watch enough golf. Shall we complain about them too?
		
Click to expand...

This might be one of the good things about LIV. For fans who get tired of the attention golfing greats get, they can tune into LIV and watch has beens and unknowns knock a ball about. I'm guessing the LIV commentators don't talk about Tiger and Rory too much anyway?

There, LIV has actually captured a new audience after all


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			Which ended approx 15 years ago 🤣

‘Establishment golf’ and golf media  revolves itself around Tiger and Rory…

Zzzzz
		
Click to expand...

15 years ago 🤷‍♂️

They are the two most bankable golfers in the sport - yes the media will revolve around them


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## evemccc (Jan 4, 2023)

Liverpoolphil said:



			15 years ago 🤷‍♂️

They are the two most bankable golfers in the sport - yes the media will revolve around them
		
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Yeah..Tiger’s peak years had ended approx by 2008…or are you going to dispute that too and claim that from 2008-22 is Prime Tiger > 1997-2007?


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## evemccc (Jan 4, 2023)

BiMGuy said:



			Golf media talking about the best ever and best for the last decade. Who would have thought 🤷🏼‍♂️

Jack and Arnie get mentioned plenty of you watch enough golf. Shall we complain about them too?
		
Click to expand...

I’d prefer to see less rather less fawning and mindless cheerleading in my sports media…rather like the way the BBC did Test Cricket in the past and the way Atherton, Gower and Hussain do (and did) cricket on Sky..

Got a problem with that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			Yeah..Tiger’s peak years had ended approx by 2008…or are you going to dispute that too and claim that from 2008-22 is Prime Tiger > 1997-2007?
		
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He was still at the top of the game through to 2010 winning majors and other big comps , then his injuries but then got back to world number one and was pretty dominant on the PGAT 2012 to 2013 when I think he won 8 Tour events , and even then he came back again in 2018 winning the Tour Championship and then the Masters in 2019 

So yeah he was still within the top players in the game until he had his car crash


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## Swango1980 (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			I’d prefer to see less rather less fawning and mindless cheerleading in my sports media…rather like the way the BBC did Test Cricket in the past and the way Atherton, Gower and Hussain do (and did) cricket on Sky..

Got a problem with that?
		
Click to expand...

You should write a letter to Sky. Maybe they are not aware of your criticism, and if they knew they'd completely change how they present their coverage? After all, their ultimate aim to to make their coverage as appealing as possible, so assuming your opinion reflects that of the majority, they'd definitely want to hear it.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			I’d prefer to see less rather less fawning and mindless cheerleading in my sports media…rather like the way the BBC did Test Cricket in the past and the way Atherton, Gower and Hussain do (and did) cricket on Sky..

Got a problem with that?
		
Click to expand...

No need to be so defensive 🤣. It’s your opinion, you are welcome to it! Unfortunately for you, those two are two of the most marketable sports people on the planet, so we will hear more about them. 

Jordan peaked 30 years ago. He is still the most marketable name in sports.

I’ll take your word about the cricket as I’ve never listened to TMS.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 4, 2023)

evemccc said:



			I’d prefer to see less rather less fawning and mindless cheerleading in my sports media…rather like the way the BBC did Test Cricket in the past and the way Atherton, Gower and Hussain do (and did) cricket on Sky..

Got a problem with that?
		
Click to expand...

Obviously been living under a rock for the last year with both the beeb and sky being major cheerleaders of the ‘new bazball era’ basically claiming we’ve reinvented and saved Test Cricket when in reality we remain 3rd best side (at best)


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## IainP (Jan 4, 2023)

Swango1980 said:



			This might be one of the good things about LIV. For fans who get tired of the attention golfing greats get, they can tune into LIV and *watch has beens and unknowns knock a ball about.* I'm guessing the LIV commentators don't talk about Tiger and Rory too much anyway?

There, LIV has actually captured a new audience after all 

Click to expand...

Classic bot speak  - well done 👏👏
🥱 🥱


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## Swango1980 (Jan 4, 2023)

IainP said:



			Classic bot speak  - well done 👏👏
🥱 🥱
		
Click to expand...

Classic response


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## Bdill93 (Jan 5, 2023)

A lack of new events and new signings in the off season for LIV so far... They need to get busy!


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## Backsticks (Jan 5, 2023)

Bdill93 said:



			A lack of new events and new signings in the off season for LIV so far... They need to get busy!
		
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Article in The Guardian earlier in the week suggesting they may just let it be, and that Saudi sportswashing has bigger fish to fry like football and Ronaldo. We may already have seen peak-LIV.


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## BrianM (Jan 5, 2023)

Backsticks said:



			Caddies are irrelevant in the LIV discussion. Its hauling a bag. Of course they would like to be wherever they are best paid. Its not that they win anything anyway. Their role is closer to the group scoreboard carrier as far as the sport goes.
		
Click to expand...

What a crass comment, pretty much sums up the type of person you are though.


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## Bdill93 (Jan 5, 2023)

Backsticks said:



			Article in The Guardian earlier in the week suggesting they may just let it be, and that Saudi sportswashing has bigger fish to fry like football and Ronaldo. We may already have seen peak-LIV.
		
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Would be pretty funny if they did just bail  Wonder what the players would have to do to get back on the tour then!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2023)

Backsticks said:



			Caddies are irrelevant in the LIV discussion. Its hauling a bag. Of course they would like to be wherever they are best paid. Its not that they win anything anyway. Their role is closer to the group scoreboard carrier as far as the sport goes.
		
Click to expand...

What a strange comment - shows a lack of understanding and not for the first time


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## Swango1980 (Jan 5, 2023)

BrianM said:



			What a crass comment, pretty much sums up the type of person you are though.
		
Click to expand...

It was definitely a bit (a lot) unfair on the caddy, as they do a lot more than just carry a bag. Some more than others, depending on the player they are with.

However, I suspect there is an element of truth in what he said, insofar as caddies are not really relevant in LIV as far as golf fans are concerned, and the prestige / appeal of the tour to the public. I don't know of any golf fans who tune in to watch golf to see a caddy go about their business. Perhaps there are some, but not enough to give it any relevance to fan engagement.


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## TheBigDraw (Jan 6, 2023)

Bdill93 said:



			A lack of new events and new signings in the off season for LIV so far... They need to get busy!
		
Click to expand...

The Silence is deafening!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2023)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611377155648143361
Someone else leaves LIV 

Are they jumping ship before it sinks


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## Beezerk (Jan 6, 2023)

Wow, the anti LIV bots are all over this trying to do a negative spin on any old tripe


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## IainP (Jan 6, 2023)

Seems Bryson's changed shape again.
And been practicing stringers...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/sl...arly-front-runner-best-trick-shots-2023-video


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## TheBigDraw (Saturday at 9:37 PM)

So the constant message from the PGAT has been you have made your choice which is fine but just stay on your tour. 

Then news this morning that PGAT players have asked the PGAT for releases to play in the PIF funded Saudi International. 🤔🤔🤔


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## Liverpoolphil (Saturday at 9:41 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			So the constant message from the PGAT has been you have made your choice which is fine but just stay on your tour.

Then news this morning that PGAT players have asked the PGAT for releases to play in the PIF funded Saudi International. 🤔🤔🤔
		
Click to expand...

Which players have asked for releases ?

And isn’t it because the event is not based in the US hence why they get releases for events in Europe and Asia 🤷‍♂️


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## doublebogey7 (Saturday at 10:19 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			So the constant message from the PGAT has been you have made your choice which is fine but just stay on your tour. 

Then news this morning that PGAT players have asked the PGAT for releases to play in the PIF funded Saudi International. 🤔🤔🤔
		
Click to expand...

Not sure whether such requests have been granted,  but if they have that would be completely in keeping with the PGAT long established policy as The Asian Tour has no plans to hold events in North America.


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## TheBigDraw (Saturday at 10:57 PM)

Reported that 3 as of now unknown PGAT players have been granted releases by PGAT.

Alan Shipnuck on the news PGAT players have requested releases to play in the PIF funded Saudi International.

"Well, the PGA Tour is facing a billion dollar anti-trust suit that threatens to destroy the entire business model so now is probably not the time to deviate from precedent with this tourney and restrict its “independent contractors.”


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611828591225982976


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## TheBigDraw (Saturday at 11:17 PM)

This of course could be 3 PGAT members who already know they are moving to Liv 🤔🤔🤔🤔

If not then it's not a great look for PGAT members to be going to an event regardless of which tour it is on that is funded by PIF when they have been so critical on the source of the money that funds Liv Golf.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 10:37 AM)

TheBigDraw said:



			This of course could be 3 PGAT members who already know they are moving to Liv 🤔🤔🤔🤔

If not then it's not a great look for PGAT members to be going to an event regardless of which tour it is on that is funded by PIF when they have been so critical on the source of the money that funds Liv Golf.
		
Click to expand...

The PGAT can't ever be right with the live fan boys. This granting of permission to play on the Asian Tour is completely consistent with their previous record of granting such request.  
I know their has been much media and fan criticism of LiV funding,  but I'm not sure I have seen any coming direct from the PGAT,  can you point me in the right direction.


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## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 11:02 AM)

doublebogey7 said:



			The PGAT can't ever be right with the live fan boys. This granting of permission to play on the Asian Tour is completely consistent with their previous record of granting such request.
I know their has been much media and fan criticism of LiV funding,  *but I'm not sure I have seen any coming direct from the PGAT,  can you point me in the right direction*.
		
Click to expand...


From the top man himself, quite clearly associating LIV, and their backers with 9/11 here.

Incidentally, there's been a lot of conjecture around the 9/11 support group that operates at LIV events and intends to protest at Augusta, it was apparently set up in Florida, in June, and uses the same PR company as the PGA Tour - make of that what you will.....


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## TheBigDraw (Sunday at 11:34 AM)

The players that are being reported as the possible 3 Golfers have not been outspoken against Liv so I don't see an issue for them individually. 

It will only Stoke the rumours that one is/has signing/signed for Liv. 

It just muddies the water for the PGA Tours stance on the funding of Liv when they grant access to their members to go and play in an event that is funded by the same PIF fund. 

However having read more about it this morning the PGAT is between a rock and a hard place because if they didn't grant access it could severely harm their position in the anti trust case.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 1:10 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			From the top man himself, quite clearly associating LIV, and their backers with 9/11 here.

Incidentally, there's been a lot of conjecture around the 9/11 support group that operates at LIV events and intends to protest at Augusta, it was apparently set up in Florida, in June, and uses the same PR company as the PGA Tour - make of that what you will.....







Click to expand...

While I am happy to stand corrected,  it is plain from that interview that their criticism of LiV funding is not at all linked to their sanctioning of PGAT players from playing on the LiV Tour.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 1:17 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			The players that are being reported as the possible 3 Golfers have not been outspoken against Liv so I don't see an issue for them individually. 

It will only Stoke the rumours that one is/has signing/signed for Liv. 

It just muddies the water for the PGA Tours stance on the funding of Liv when they grant access to their members to go and play in an event that is funded by the same PIF fund. 

However having read more about it this morning the PGAT is between a rock and a hard place because if they didn't grant access it could severely harm their position in the anti trust case.
		
Click to expand...

There is no muddying of the waters at all,  this event has previously included PGAT members and there's no reason at all why the Tour should change their stance this year.


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## TheBigDraw (Sunday at 1:44 PM)

doublebogey7 said:



			There is no muddying of the waters at all,  this event has previously included PGAT members and there's no reason at all why the Tour should change their stance this year.
		
Click to expand...

But last year the PGAT were not saying

"you don't have to apologise to play on the PGA Tour" 
Emplying that you do have to apologise for playing in an event/tour funded by a country with a terrible human rights record. 

Now they are saying to their members yes we will give you our permission to play in that event funded by the very same people we said you should be ashamed to play under in any shape or form. 

I think most people would say that the above comes under the term muddied waters. 

The whole golf landscape has changed unrecognisabley since the last Saudi International event was played.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 2:23 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			But last year the PGAT were not saying

"you don't have to apologise to play on the PGA Tour" 
Emplying that you do have to apologise for playing in an event/tour funded by a country with a terrible human rights record. 

Now they are saying to their members yes we will give you our permission to play in that event funded by the very same people we said you should be ashamed to play under in any shape or form. 

I think most people would say that the above comes under the term muddied waters. 

The whole golf landscape has changed unrecognisabley since the last Saudi International event was played.
		
Click to expand...

They are simply giving their members the same permission this year that they have consistently given in the past,  I see no conflict there.  I am sure Moynahans view of funding the Saudi International has not changed in that time,  but I am equally sure his members haven't been knocking on his door imploring him to change the rules on where members can and cannot play.


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## TheBigDraw (Sunday at 3:32 PM)

doublebogey7 said:



			They are simply giving their members the same permission this year that they have consistently given in the past,  I see no conflict there.  I am sure Moynahans view of funding the Saudi International has not changed in that time,  but I am equally sure his members haven't been knocking on his door imploring him to change the rules on where members can and cannot play.
		
Click to expand...

Right OK if you see nothings changed, let's leave it there 👍


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## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 3:49 PM)

doublebogey7 said:



			While I am happy to stand corrected,  it is plain from that interview that their criticism of LiV funding is not at all linked to their sanctioning of PGAT players from playing on the LiV Tour.
		
Click to expand...

That’s not the original point you made, you asked if there had been any criticism from the PGAT over the source of funding on LIV, and quite clearly, there has been.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 4:41 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			That’s not the original point you made, you asked if there had been any criticism from the PGAT over the source of funding on LIV, and quite clearly, there has been.
		
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And I clearly acknowledged that what do you want me to do beg for mercy?


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## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 4:46 PM)

doublebogey7 said:



			And I clearly acknowledged that what do you want me to do beg for mercy?
		
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Did you, it wasn't very clear to me? Looked like you were trying to move the goalposts a little, but whatever. As long as there's no confusion that Jay Monahon himself has associated LIV players with the 9/11 attacks through the source of funding on LIV, we're all good.


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## IainP (Sunday at 4:56 PM)

Reckon playing in the Saudi International is likely a good way to increase your PIP ranking 😉  #lateralthinking 😄

Might run a risk of some funky draws on the PGAT later though 😉😉 #allegedly#speculation


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## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 4:59 PM)

IainP said:



			Reckon playing in the Saudi International is likely a good way to increase your PIP ranking 😉  #lateralthinking 😄

Might run a risk of some funky draws on the PGAT later though 😉😉 #allegedly#speculation
		
Click to expand...

That's a good point, although Charlie Woods has probably already got it wrapped up for his old fella in 2023.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why Rory isn't playing this weekend, nice little boost in the PIP points for doing the square root of frig all - he's not as daft as I look.


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## doublebogey7 (Sunday at 6:12 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			Did you, it wasn't very clear to me? Looked like you were trying to move the goalposts a little, but whatever. As long as there's no confusion that Jay Monahon himself has associated LIV players with the 9/11 attacks through the source of funding on LIV, we're all good.

Click to expand...

I only asked the question re funding of LiV as I could not recall such comments coming from the PGAT,  I was wrong on that.  It had no bearing on what I said in the first paragraph of my original post and not sure why you think it should.  
For the record I think Moynahan made a serious error of judgement in making those comments and should have left that sort of rhetoric for the media,  as it has no bearing on the golfing case against the LiV Tour.


----------



## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 6:26 PM)

doublebogey7 said:



			I only asked the question re funding of LiV as I could not recall such comments coming from the PGAT,  I was wrong on that.  It had no bearing on what I said in the first paragraph of my original post and not sure why you think it should. 
For the record I think Moynahan made a serious error of judgement in making those comments and should have left that sort of rhetoric for the media,  as it has no bearing on the golfing case against the LiV Tour.
		
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He certainly didn't need to make that comment - the likes of Chamblee, Eamon Lynch etc are seemingly more than willing to throw as many grenades in the direction of LIV from the PGAT side.


----------



## cleveland52 (Sunday at 8:12 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			He certainly didn't need to make that comment - the likes of Chamblee, Eamon Lynch etc are seemingly more than willing to throw as many grenades in the direction of LIV from the PGAT side.
		
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Yet your disgust and grenades for the PGAT and Monahan know no bounds......LOL!


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## Mel Smooth (Sunday at 8:24 PM)

cleveland52 said:



			Yet your disgust and grenades for the PGAT and Monahan know no bounds......LOL!
		
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Can you back that up with some solid evidence please buddy?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 8:20 AM)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612363527083229184
That’s not great for them


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## Golfnut1957 (Monday at 8:52 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612363527083229184
That’s not great for them
		
Click to expand...

That sounds perfect for the BBC. A sports package that costs nothing. They will stick a highlights programme on BBC3 at 2 O' clock in the morning.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 9:09 AM)

Golfnut1957 said:



			That sounds perfect for the BBC. A sports package that costs nothing. They will stick a highlights programme on BBC3 at 2 O' clock in the morning.
		
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Don’t think even the BBC will touch it - far too toxic and divisive


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 9:27 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don’t think even the BBC will touch it - far too toxic and divisive
		
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What’s toxic about LIV golf that you can’t also throw at Newcastle United, or Facebook, Disney etc?

By the way, the BBC won’t touch it - that’s obvious from the way they’ve reported on LIV so far.


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## Swango1980 (Monday at 9:34 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don’t think even the BBC will touch it - far too toxic and divisive
		
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Channel 5?


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 9:53 AM)

Mel Smooth said:



			What’s toxic about LIV golf that you can’t also throw at Newcastle United, or Facebook, Disney etc?

By the way, the BBC won’t touch it - that’s obvious from the way they’ve reported on LIV so far.
		
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Sorry but what’s that got to do with the BBC prob not broadcasting LIV golf 🤷‍♂️


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 10:06 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what’s that got to do with the BBC prob not broadcasting LIV golf 🤷‍♂️
		
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Well the BBC candidly feature Newcastle United all the time, so what is the difference between LIV, and Newcastle United that makes one toxic and the other not. It can’t be the source of the funding, because it all comes from the same pot?


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 10:09 AM)

Mel Smooth said:



			Well the BBC candidly feature Newcastle United all the time, so what is the difference between LIV, and Newcastle United that makes one toxic and the other not. It can’t be the source of the funding, because it all comes from the same pot?
		
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The BBC feature Newcastle as part of a wider television deal that includes all the football clubs 🤷‍♂️

Newcastle ownership has been debated because of the funding on the relevant thread 

And if you want to understand how LIV is toxic and divisive then re read the thread 

The lawsuits 
The social media battles
The way it’s split the sport 
The money


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## HomerJSimpson (Monday at 10:25 AM)

Different year and the same old arguments and same protagonists bickering. Like it or not LIV is here for the forseeable future and all that needs to be seen is the impact things like the RC (team selection) and those who may wish to come back a main tour are allowed to do so (or not). The rest at present is petty point scoring with no-one knowing with ANY certainty of the outcomes and what is actually except for the reports published and conjecture on social media


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 10:43 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The BBC feature Newcastle as part of a wider television deal that includes all the football clubs 🤷‍♂️

Newcastle ownership has been debated because of the funding on the relevant thread 

And if you want to understand how LIV is toxic and divisive then re read the thread 

The lawsuits 
The social media battles
The way it’s split the sport 
The money
		
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The lawsuits are trying to re-establish a position where the sport isn’t split. 

Social media battles, well I’d argue most of the hostility has come from those in support of the established tours, but obviously it takes two to tango. 

The money - all top sports stars are obscenely overpaid, and in order for any sport’s organisation to establish itself as a contender, they have to pay a lot of it. 

There is toxicity, because that’s exactly what the PGAT want, you only have to read some of the inflammatory bs produced by some of their media to see that. Infact the video I posted yesterday, spin from Monahan himself to stir up hate and division. 

Quite sad.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 10:53 AM)

Mel Smooth said:



			The lawsuits are trying to re-establish a position where the sport isn’t split.

Social media battles, well I’d argue most of the hostility has come from those in support of the established tours, but obviously it takes two to tango.

The money - all top sports stars are obscenely overpaid, and in order for any sport’s organisation to establish itself as a contender, they have to pay a lot of it.

There is toxicity, because that’s exactly what the PGAT want, you only have to read some of the inflammatory bs produced by some of their media to see that. Infact the video I posted yesterday, spin from Monahan himself to stir up hate and division.

Quite sad.
		
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Your post proves the point - the whole thing is toxic and divisive to the sport and has been since it arrived and will continue to do so 

Someone came along offered unlimited amount of money to play the sport , the players were happy to take it but then they also wanted to hang around the established tours and have some of that cake as well 

If you can’t see how that’s going to create a massive negative atmosphere within the sport as well as where 100% of the funding is coming from. There is a reason why media companies don’t want to touch it with a bargepole - it’s not sustainable and could quite easily just stop at the drop of a hat - why would any media company take that risk


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 11:03 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your post proves the point - the whole thing is toxic and divisive to the sport and has been since it arrived and will continue to do so 

Someone came along offered unlimited amount of money to play the sport , the players were happy to take it but then they also wanted to hang around the established tours and have some of that cake as well 

If you can’t see how that’s going to create a massive negative atmosphere within the sport as well as where 100% of the funding is coming from. There is a reason why media companies don’t want to touch it with a bargepole - it’s not sustainable and could quite easily just stop at the drop of a hat - why would any media company take that risk
		
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Football is unsustainable - 5 Premier League teams turned a profit last year, but it doesn’t stop more and more money being ploughed in. 

Yes LIV could stop, or they may continue until they’re successful, nobody really knows, but in any event, it has exposed some pretty substantial holes in the way the professional game is focussed on one particular tour. Golf is already seeing the benefit of that globally - which is great.


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## TheBigDraw (Monday at 12:40 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612363527083229184
That’s not great for them
		
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Money really doesn't matter to them in the start up phase. 

Their plan will be to get their product in front of more people on TV networks to help build the brand and then hopefully charge for it in the future. 

As strange as it may seem now there was a time the Ryder Cup was in the same position in the 80s before it became what it is today. 

Once it was seen by a bigger audience and became a contest - Liftoff. 

Now before anybody jumps the gun I am NOT saying that Liv and the Ryder Cup are the same but just pointing out that what Liv is proposing is not unprecedented. 

QUOTE
"Meanwhile in America, the Cup had become television poison. In 1983, Roone Arledge, the president of ABC Sports at the time, is reported to have made a rather unusual offer to the PGA of America: he wanted to pay them back $1 million in order that he did _not_ have to broadcast the Ryder Cup from PGA National Golf Club in Florida. It was not an offer the PGA of America accepted, but it demonstrated the low level of interest in the one-sided matches."


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## IanM (Monday at 12:49 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			Football is unsustainable - 5 Premier League teams turned a profit last year, but it doesn’t stop more and more money being ploughed in.
		
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TheBigDraw said:



			Money really doesn't matter to them in the start up phase."
		
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Unsustainable in the conventional sense.  But, (Premier League) Football and LIV have similar funding models... normal rules don't apply.  People with endless cash are happy to fund it for their various motives.  One day they might get bored and find a new toy, maybe they won't.

Sky TV is slightly different, but their growth was predicated on Sports screening.  If it gets increasingly watered down by other suppliers, that'll be a challenge for them.  

It ruined football lower down the food chain, splitting golf won't do it any good either.  But the very rich will get even richer.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 1:37 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			Money really doesn't matter to them in the start up phase.

Their plan will be to get their product in front of more people on TV networks to help build the brand and then hopefully charge for it in the future.

As strange as it may seem now there was a time the Ryder Cup was in the same position in the 80s before it became what it is today.

Once it was seen by a bigger audience and became a contest - Liftoff.

Now before anybody jumps the gun I am NOT saying that Liv and the Ryder Cup are the same but just pointing out that what Liv is proposing is not unprecedented.

QUOTE
"Meanwhile in America, the Cup had become television poison. In 1983, Roone Arledge, the president of ABC Sports at the time, is reported to have made a rather unusual offer to the PGA of America: he wanted to pay them back $1 million in order that he did _not_ have to broadcast the Ryder Cup from PGA National Golf Club in Florida. It was not an offer the PGA of America accepted, but it demonstrated the low level of interest in the one-sided matches."
		
Click to expand...

The problem is they can’t get any sort of media at all - they even tried to buy airtime in the US

The only way they can get people to watch is via You Tube , they can’t give it away for free to any mainstream media

They don’t really have any sponsers as such , it’s fully funded by Saudi and last year to a tune of a couple of billion

What is the ultimate aim ? It’s only grabbing any attention because of the actions and how it’s come about , people very rarely talk about the actual golf even when the events are on - people aren’t having any connections to the players or the events themselves , they make themselves even more divisive aligning with the most divisive US President in history

When last season finished the main talking point was how much someone earned - it wasn’t about who won this tournament and that tournament

So the overall aim just seems to be to make a small amount of golfers even more richer than they were anyway



Mel Smooth said:



			Football is unsustainable - 5 Premier League teams turned a profit last year, but it doesn’t stop more and more money being ploughed in.

Yes LIV could stop, or they may continue until they’re successful, nobody really knows, but in any event, it has exposed some pretty substantial holes in the way the professional game is focussed on one particular tour. Golf is already seeing the benefit of that globally - which is great.
		
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Football is sustainable, and has been for a long time - each club and league bring in billions in media rights and sponserships

Football isnt being held up financially by one single entity

What other income does LiV have beyond PIF ?


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 2:40 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The problem is they can’t get any sort of media at all - they even tried to buy airtime in the US 

The only way they can get people to watch is via You Tube , they can’t give it away for free to any mainstream media 

They don’t really have any sponsers as such , it’s fully funded by Saudi and last year to a tune of a couple of billion 

What is the ultimate aim ? It’s only grabbing any attention because of the actions and how it’s come about , people very rarely talk about the actual golf even when the events are on - people aren’t having any connections to the players or the events themselves , they make themselves even more divisive aligning with the most divisive US President in history 

When last season finished the main talking point was how much someone earned - it wasn’t about who won this tournament and that tournament 

So the overall aim just seems to be to make a small amount of golfers even more richer than they were anyway 



Football is sustainable, and has been for a long time - each club and league bring in billions in media rights and sponserships 

Football is being held up financially by one single entity 

What other income does LiV have beyond PIF ?
		
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Football is being held up by unquantifiable debt Phil, if you are trying to suggest Sky Tv is propping it up, then you are wrong. They are just dangling a financial carrot for everybody to chase. 

Maybe you’re not familiar with the economics of the game outside of the top few PL clubs, but largely, without owners with money they are willing to lose, football as we know it wouldn’t exist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 2:49 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			Football is being held up by unquantifiable debt Phil, if you are trying to suggest Sky Tv is propping it up, then you are wrong. They are just dangling a financial carrot for everybody to chase.

Maybe you’re not familiar with the economics of the game outside of the top few PL clubs, but largely, without owners with money they are willing to lose, football as we know it wouldn’t exist.
		
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Sky Tv isn’t propping it up - multiple revenue streams are hence why is said media rights and sponserships 

There are also many clubs out there that work sustainable 

Some have debt to owners , some have debt to banks for stadium builds 

football as a sport doesn’t just rely on the personal income of single owners 

And the media deal for the Premier League I believe is around £10bn

If owners didn’t put in their own money then clubs would have to rely on the other avenues - many clubs can it 

LIV has a single income - Saudi Royal money 

there is no sponsers , no media rights - it’s relying on Saudis good will to keep the whole tour alive


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 3:33 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sky Tv isn’t propping it up - multiple revenue streams are hence why is said media rights and sponserships 

There are also many clubs out there that work sustainable 

Some have debt to owners , some have debt to banks for stadium builds 

football as a sport doesn’t just rely on the personal income of single owners 

And the media deal for the Premier League I believe is around £10bn

If owners didn’t put in their own money then clubs would have to rely on the other avenues - many clubs can it 

LIV has a single income - Saudi Royal money 

there is no sponsers , no media rights - it’s relying on Saudis good will to keep the whole tour alive
		
Click to expand...

LIV is not even one year old, how on earth would they have sponsors for something that didn’t exist 12 months back - that doesn’t mean they won’t in the future. 

The PIF is financially integrated globally on a level that the PGA tour can only dream of. I’d imagine there are plenty to f discussions going on to bring some of those business partners on board, but Rome was not built in a day.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 3:39 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV is not even one year old, how on earth would they have sponsors for something that didn’t exist 12 months back - that doesn’t mean they won’t in the future.

The PIF is financially integrated globally on a level that the PGA tour can only dream of. I’d imagine there are plenty to f discussions going on to bring some of those business partners on board, but Rome was not built in a day.
		
Click to expand...

So despite all the social media accounts pushing the tour , spending all that money on some top players they still have no media contract and no sponsers 

Plenty of start up leagues and comps in the past have secured sponsers and media rights  before they start ? 

Any new recent cricket league managed it ? 

How come LIV can’t even give away media rights or even pay for media time on a network ?

There has been talk of major brands sponsering teams for the last 8 months but nothing ? 

Is that not saying something ?


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## r0wly86 (Monday at 3:44 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			LIV is not even one year old, how on earth would they have sponsors for something that didn’t exist 12 months back - that doesn’t mean they won’t in the future.

The PIF is financially integrated globally on a level that the PGA tour can only dream of. I’d imagine there are plenty to f discussions going on to bring some of those business partners on board, but Rome was not built in a day.
		
Click to expand...

any sensible business venture would have tried to sort out sponsorship, ranking points, television deals etc before peeing off every other golfing institute by declaring you are the biggest tour around and stealing other tour players


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## BrianM (Monday at 3:50 PM)

r0wly86 said:



			any sensible business venture would have tried to sort out sponsorship, ranking points, television deals etc before peeing off every other golfing institute by declaring you are the biggest tour around and stealing other tour players
		
Click to expand...

Stealing other tour players 🤣🤣🤣
What a statement that is 🙈🙈


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## TheBigDraw (Monday at 3:57 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The problem is they can’t get any sort of media at all - they even tried to buy airtime in the US
		
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Yes your absolutely right but right now they dont need the money, it doesnt need to turn a profit.
They have committed 2 billion to get it off the ground and burned through a good chunk of that already.

If they are committed to getting it established which they say they are and its going to take another billion , no problem its pocket change for them.

If by the start of the 2024 season they


Have no TV deal (USA/UK) They already have TV deals in other countries round the world
No sponsors
No team franchises
No OWGR points
Then some serious questions are going to be asked about its future and whether PIF is prepared to fund another year.

But those questions are not for now because they are not in that place yet.

They will be hoping that after another season, where im sure they are hoping to sign more top talent to their ranks and that they will make more progress on the above for 2024.

Dont make the mistake of thinking 2023 has to be a huge success and is a make or break year as 2023 is still part of the building phase.
I think because of what they have achieved in such a small space of time people forget they are only 8 events old, after 2023 they will still be only 23 events old as a tour.

Also right now we have no idea where they are at, they may have no new signings, they may have some top 10 players already signed up.
They may have team franchises already sold for multi millions, they may have interested parties they may have none.
Its so hard to gauge where Liv really is at right now.

Right now they will try and get on any UK and USA TV network with whatever deal they can get whether it be free or they pay for airtime.
Like I mentioned before the Ryder Cup was once in a place where ABC were prepared to pay the PGA 1 million dollars NOT to broadcast the event, that was a shed load of money in 1983.

This is all going to take more time to shake out and know where the pro golfing eco system really is at.

Interestingly and correct me if im wrong but far more pros saying their world is better off for Liv coming along then those saying its ruined ?


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 4:34 PM)

r0wly86 said:



			any sensible business venture would have tried to sort out sponsorship, ranking points, television deals etc before peeing off every other golfing institute by declaring you are the biggest tour around and stealing other tour players
		
Click to expand...

So is the arrangement to take the 10 best players on the DPWT to the PGAT not stealing them then, or is it acceptable because the players will have the opportunity to play on a more lucrative tour? 

The only tours LIV have ‘peed’ off are those two above, and I dare say without the mutual agreement between the two, the DPWT could have kicked on to challenge the PGAT, had they negotiated a better position with LIV, but I’m guessing that wasn’t in Keith Pelleys best interests.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 5:07 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			Yes your absolutely right but right now they dont need the money, it doesnt need to turn a profit.
They have committed 2 billion to get it off the ground and burned through a good chunk of that already.

If they are committed to getting it established which they say they are and its going to take another billion , no problem its pocket change for them.

If by the start of the 2024 season they


Have no TV deal (USA/UK) They already have TV deals in other countries round the world
No sponsors
No team franchises
No OWGR points
Then some serious questions are going to be asked about its future and whether PIF is prepared to fund another year.

But those questions are not for now because they are not in that place yet.

They will be hoping that after another season, where im sure they are hoping to sign more top talent to their ranks and that they will make more progress on the above for 2024.

Dont make the mistake of thinking 2023 has to be a huge success and is a make or break year as 2023 is still part of the building phase.
I think because of what they have achieved in such a small space of time people forget they are only 8 events old, after 2023 they will still be only 23 events old as a tour.

Also right now we have no idea where they are at, they may have no new signings, they may have some top 10 players already signed up.
They may have team franchises already sold for multi millions, they may have interested parties they may have none.
Its so hard to gauge where Liv really is at right now.

Right now they will try and get on any UK and USA TV network with whatever deal they can get whether it be free or they pay for airtime.
Like I mentioned before the Ryder Cup was once in a place where ABC were prepared to pay the PGA 1 million dollars NOT to broadcast the event, that was a shed load of money in 1983.

This is all going to take more time to shake out and know where the pro golfing eco system really is at.

Interestingly and correct me if im wrong but far more pros saying their world is better off for Liv coming along then those saying its ruined ?
		
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What’s going to change to bring in the sponsers and media companies?

There isn’t many “big” names that attract everyone beyond Woods , Rory  maybe Rahm - but the first two are the big fish that bring in the big stuff - the likes of Spieth , Thomas and Co are the next rung down

LIV have prob got the biggest players they can get - even if they get some level of ranking points they are going to very low level that’s not going to make much difference 

It’s chicken and the egg time 

Sponsers need exposure but LIV are limited with their exposure 

Any sponser also only gets half the amount of golf 

There are loads of questions and the answers should have happened before they started the Tour in the first place 

Ranking points
Media rights
Sponsers 

All should have been sorted before the first event - but LIV have the arrogant Greg Norman running and he clearly things all they need is money 

There is nothing new played for 23 that’s different, doesn’t seem to be any further big players leaving , I doubt they will even be able sell all their ticket for any event 

So how is it going to progress to be a viable tour 


Mel Smooth said:



			So is the arrangement to take the 10 best players on the DPWT to the PGAT not stealing them then, or is it acceptable because the players will have the opportunity to play on a more lucrative tour?

The only tours LIV have ‘peed’ off are those two above, and I dare say without the mutual agreement between the two, the DPWT could have kicked on to challenge the PGAT, had they negotiated a better position with LIV, but I’m guessing that wasn’t in Keith Pelleys best interests.
		
Click to expand...

Players have looked to earn a tour card on the next tour up for decades , the PGAT is the pinnacle tour in golf , it opens doors to every single big competition in the sport and enables players to compete in majors , WGC’s , the historic competitions and Ryder Cups 

The ET will never be able to challenge at the same level as the PGAT


----------



## TheBigDraw (Monday at 6:11 PM)

Some incredible quotes on Alan Shipnucks latest podcast. 

Jay Monahan confirming in different words the PIP is just a slush fund to keep their top stars happy, even though it states a minimum number of events must be played that's actually not the case saying he has disgression on the decision so he can basically give millions to Tiger. 

A.S asked for another sit down with Greg Norman for his upcoming Liv Golf book and was refused saying Greg can't help himself making incendiary comments when poked by the press that doesn't serve them well. 

Sentry field at Kapulua was the strongest ever but the viewing figures were massively down, this wasn't a slight on the PGA Tour but their thought is people are getting sick of pro golf across the board with all the politics and bickering. 

Fire Drill Podcast, well worth a listen..


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## Mel Smooth (Monday at 6:44 PM)

TheBigDraw said:



			Some incredible quotes on Alan Shipnucks latest podcast.

Jay Monahan confirming in different words the PIP is just a slush fund to keep their top stars happy, even though it states a minimum number of events must be played that's actually not the case saying he has disgression on the decision so he can basically give millions to Tiger.

A.S asked for another sit down with Greg Norman for his upcoming Liv Golf book and was refused saying Greg can't help himself making incendiary comments when poked by the press that doesn't serve them well.

Sentry field at Kapulua was the strongest ever but the viewing figures were massively down, this wasn't a slight on the PGA Tour but their thought is people are getting sick of pro golf across the board with all the politics and bickering.

Fire Drill Podcast, well worth a listen..
		
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People have been divided - and asked to pick a side, both the PGAT and LIV are of course  party to this - but it needn't be the case. I'll watch whatever I fancy, regardless of who is playing where, but you can tell from this thread that some people won't be so accepting.

Most of the comments I saw about the Sentry were bemoaning the quality of the coverage, and that it was mainly showing guys putting and not much else - although that could have just been the US coverage, I didn't watch it so not sure. And of course, the OWGR debacle has exposed all these events that are no cut / invitationals - which is a stick used to beat LIV with - so potentially reducing the credibility of some of these PGAT events by default.

Pleased Rahm won though, I like him as a golfer, and he's a good statesman for the game.


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## TheBigDraw (Monday at 7:42 PM)

Mel Smooth said:



			People have been divided - and asked to pick a side, both the PGAT and LIV are of course  party to this - but it needn't be the case. I'll watch whatever I fancy, regardless of who is playing where, but you can tell from this thread that some people won't be so accepting.

Most of the comments I saw about the Sentry were bemoaning the quality of the coverage, and that it was mainly showing guys putting and not much else - although that could have just been the US coverage, I didn't watch it so not sure. And of course, the OWGR debacle has exposed all these events that are no cut / invitationals - which is a stick used to beat LIV with - so potentially reducing the credibility of some of these PGAT events by default.

Pleased Rahm won though, I like him as a golfer, and he's a good statesman for the game. 

Click to expand...

I thought the coverage was pretty good, the new drone cameras were fantastic at The Sentry. 

Still early in the season'  I'm sure the figures will go up when the iconic events start with the LA Open at Riviera. 

Make no mistake those iconic PGAT events are fantastic and the Liv events fill in the gaps in between. 

Liv very sensibly have not gone head to head against those brilliant events.


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## cleveland52 (Monday at 8:43 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sky Tv isn’t propping it up - multiple revenue streams are hence why is said media rights and sponserships

There are also many clubs out there that work sustainable

Some have debt to owners , some have debt to banks for stadium builds

football as a sport doesn’t just rely on the personal income of single owners

And the media deal for the Premier League I believe is around £10bn

If owners didn’t put in their own money then clubs would have to rely on the other avenues - many clubs can it

LIV has a single income - Saudi Royal money

there is no sponsers , no media rights - it’s relying on Saudis good will to keep the whole tour alive
		
Click to expand...

The newest report is that LIV golf is in talks with the CW Network for television rights in the United States. They're basically a news channel but looking for a big-time sport to televise.

Should be a perfect fit for them. LIV will also need a product that will impress the viewing public.


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## Liverpoolphil (Monday at 9:03 PM)

cleveland52 said:



			The newest report is that LIV golf is in talks with the CW Network for television rights in the United States. They're basically a news channel but looking for a big-time sport to televise.

Should be a perfect fit for them. LIV will also need a product that will impress the viewing public.
		
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CW Network is where all the US Teen programmes - Smallville etc and a load of reality Telly shows are broadcast in the US 

It’s like E4 

They certainly don’t broadcast much sports 😂


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## cleveland52 (Monday at 11:08 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



			CW Network is where all the US Teen programmes - Smallville etc and a load of reality Telly shows are broadcast in the US

It’s like E4

They certainly don’t broadcast much sports 😂
		
Click to expand...

You're correct! Sorta like golf on the USA network. I just read that today.


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## BiMGuy (Tuesday at 8:37 AM)

cleveland52 said:



			The newest report is that LIV golf is in talks with the CW Network for television rights in the United States. They're basically a news channel but *looking for a big-time sport to televise.*

Should be a perfect fit for them. LIV will also need a product that will impress the viewing public.
		
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I take it they couldn’t find one, so have gone for LiV? 😂


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## Swango1980 (Tuesday at 10:06 AM)

Regarding sponsors, is it not a simple case that it is going to be extremely difficult for LIV to secure sponsors from the Western World?

From a golfing perspective, some people might think it is the best thing since sliced bread. No problem, whatever floats your boat. But, no one can deny that the presence of LIV has angered many of the top level in professional golf. Whether that be the biggest professional tour(s) in the world, and many of the biggest players. Including, arguably the biggest player of all time and the biggest player still playing. The arguments and counter arguments can go on for eternity, but it is a simple fact the arguments exist. And they are intense.

You then have the fact that it is being fully sponsored by Saudi Arabian money, and heavily linked to sports washing. Now, personally, I have no issues for people chasing money, even if it comes from the Middle East, as I don't automatically assume they now support human rights abuses. I also think more exposure of Saudi Arabian people (and especially children) to western culture will more than likely improve human rights issues in the Middle East over time, rather than the west orienteering towards their culture. I just think having people of different cultures mixing reduces ignorance and improves tolerance and acceptance over time. However, in the here and now, there is also no getting away from the fact that many see it as sports washing, it is despicable and anything associated with LIV morally reprehensible. That argument is made loud and clear, and the sort of thing the general media love to build up.

So, if you are in charge of a company, and want to throw away huge sums of money in sponsorship, you are obviously looking to build your brand and get tons back in the longer term. I see three big problems:


If you have an interest in golf, you probably already had an interest in it pre LIV anyway. Is investing in LIV a great idea, when the biggest brands / institutions in golf quite openly dislike / hate LIV? There are a large number of golf fans that either hate it, or at least have very little interest in it, so would a company risk sponsoring LIV and hoping LIV has more golf fans than other areas of professional golf that has fans?
With heavy links to sports washing and human rights abuses, does a company boss want to be linked with that. It doesn't even matter if you 100% have zero issues with the Saudi Arabian money and dismiss sports washing, it still doesn't stop others thinking this way and therefore thinking negatively about your brand simply by being associated with LIV
The prize money and contracts are huge. If LIV wants sponsors, presumably they will be looking for it to become sustainable over time? Therefore, a company boss might be nervous about how much money they'd need to give to LIV? Or, that LIV would need many many many sponsors to rake in the money required, thus diluting their exposure as an individual sponsor. Presumably, for LIV to be sustainable, they'd need a heck of a lot more sponsorship / bigger TV deals than the PGA Tour. If that was to happen, surely it would need be a much more attractive tour than the PGA Tour, that has had many many years to establish itself, and make tweaks to try and improve the commercial aspect of it.


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## cleveland52 (Tuesday at 3:30 PM)

Swango1980 said:



			Regarding sponsors, is it not a simple case that it is going to be extremely difficult for LIV to secure sponsors from the Western World?

From a golfing perspective, some people might think it is the best thing since sliced bread. No problem, whatever floats your boat. But, no one can deny that the presence of LIV has angered many of the top level in professional golf. Whether that be the biggest professional tour(s) in the world, and many of the biggest players. Including, arguably the biggest player of all time and the biggest player still playing. The arguments and counter arguments can go on for eternity, but it is a simple fact the arguments exist. And they are intense.

You then have the fact that it is being fully sponsored by Saudi Arabian money, and heavily linked to sports washing. Now, personally, I have no issues for people chasing money, even if it comes from the Middle East, as I don't automatically assume they now support human rights abuses. I also think more exposure of Saudi Arabian people (and especially children) to western culture will more than likely improve human rights issues in the Middle East over time, rather than the west orienteering towards their culture. I just think having people of different cultures mixing reduces ignorance and improves tolerance and acceptance over time. However, in the here and now, there is also no getting away from the fact that many see it as sports washing, it is despicable and anything associated with LIV morally reprehensible. That argument is made loud and clear, and the sort of thing the general media love to build up.

So, if you are in charge of a company, and want to throw away huge sums of money in sponsorship, you are obviously looking to build your brand and get tons back in the longer term. I see three big problems:


If you have an interest in golf, you probably already had an interest in it pre LIV anyway. Is investing in LIV a great idea, when the biggest brands / institutions in golf quite openly dislike / hate LIV? There are a large number of golf fans that either hate it, or at least have very little interest in it, so would a company risk sponsoring LIV and hoping LIV has more golf fans than other areas of professional golf that has fans?
With heavy links to sports washing and human rights abuses, does a company boss want to be linked with that. It doesn't even matter if you 100% have zero issues with the Saudi Arabian money and dismiss sports washing, it still doesn't stop others thinking this way and therefore thinking negatively about your brand simply by being associated with LIV
The prize money and contracts are huge. If LIV wants sponsors, presumably they will be looking for it to become sustainable over time? Therefore, a company boss might be nervous about how much money they'd need to give to LIV? Or, that LIV would need many many many sponsors to rake in the money required, thus diluting their exposure as an individual sponsor. Presumably, for LIV to be sustainable, they'd need a heck of a lot more sponsorship / bigger TV deals than the PGA Tour. If that was to happen, surely it would need be a much more attractive tour than the PGA Tour, that has had many many years to establish itself, and make tweaks to try and improve the commercial aspect of it.


Click to expand...

You're forgetting that LIV has an ex-reality show host that's an advocate with a following that'll go off a cliff for him. That's enough to extend this abomination for quite some time and plenty of golf courses around the world to play on. I kid, but not by much.


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## TheBigDraw (Yesterday at 8:00 AM)

Does Mito Perreira as a top 50 player strengthen the Liv Tour. - Yes

Is the PGAT concerned about losing Mito Perreira - No


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## Mel Smooth (Yesterday at 11:04 AM)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1613296570023149572

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1613296580089778176

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1613296590659416064

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1613296600406974464


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## Mel Smooth (Yesterday at 11:05 AM)

Think the full schedule is also due out tomorrow - that’s from the same account I’ve linked above.


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## Beezerk (Yesterday at 11:08 AM)

Think you need some tips from our resident Twitter expert on how to post links 🤣


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## Mel Smooth (Yesterday at 11:15 AM)

Beezerk said:



			Think you need some tips from our resident Twitter expert on how to post links 🤣
		
Click to expand...

I know how to post em, badly. ;-)


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