# England



## paddyc (Jun 4, 2014)

A good workout against Ecuador, result not important. Some decent performances-the Ox stood out though the injury looked a worry. Barkley showed some nice touches and I would like to see him play against the Italians.

Picking the midfield is not an easy one, Gerrard and Lallana and any two of 5 or 6. Rooney and Sturridge will play up front I'm sure, but defensively we looked fragile.

Opinions and team to start against Italy?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2014)

The team should be 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson

Sterling 
Barkley
Lallana

Sturridge

But can see Woy playing Wellbeck and Rooney instead of Barkley and Sterling


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## USER1999 (Jun 4, 2014)

Barkley is too young and inexperienced at this level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Barkley is too young and inexperienced at this level.
		
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So was Gazza before 1990 , Owen 98 , Rooney 2004

These tournaments produce stars - I will be impressed if Woy goes for the talented youngsters


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## paddyc (Jun 4, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Barkley is too young and inexperienced at this level.
		
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He's a class act, age and experience don't come into it. He's quick, strong, scores goals, can go past people, create chances. Woy's gotta play him.


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## NWJocko (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The team should be 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson

Sterling 
Barkley
Lallana

Sturridge

But can see Woy playing Wellbeck and Rooney instead of Barkley and Sterling
		
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For obvious reasons I'm not too bothered but I would have Oxlade-Chamberlain ahead of Sterling. Every time I see him play he impresses me.

Not sure about leaving Rooney out either, wish he was Scottish


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## USER1999 (Jun 4, 2014)

paddyc said:



			He's a class act, age and experience don't come into it. He's quick, strong, scores goals, can go past people, create chances. Woy's gotta play him.
		
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Sorry, half a season in a mid table team doesn't cut it.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The team should be 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson

Sterling 
Barkley
Lallana

Sturridge

But can see Woy playing Wellbeck and Rooney instead of Barkley and Sterling
		
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Id swap either sterling or Barkley for Rooney, not fussed either way. But as shown by the red card youngsters still gotta learn differences with intl footy. Plus I think sterling would be a brilliant impact player. Hope he starts final friendly though, because at atm coming on with 20 minutes he is playing against tired players.


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## Beezerk (Jun 4, 2014)

paddyc said:



			He's a class act, age and experience don't come into it. He's quick, strong, scores goals, can go past people, create chances. Woy's gotta play him.
		
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Barkley was head and shoulders a level above everyone else on the field IMO, that lad has got pure talent. I agree with LP's starting line up, 4-5-1 is the way to go we've been too weak with 4 in midfield for far too long.
Wilshire is like Gazza with Downs Syndrome!


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## paddyc (Jun 4, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, half a season in a mid table team doesn't cut it.
		
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Err, no, a whole season in a team that finished top 6 and played some of the best football and beat teams above them with Barkley an integral part of the team


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Id swap either sterling or Barkley for Rooney, not fussed either way. But as shown by the red card youngsters still gotta learn differences with intl footy. Plus I think sterling would be a brilliant impact player. Hope he starts final friendly though, because at atm coming on with 20 minutes he is playing against tired players.
		
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The red card was a joke - he went in for a tackle got a little bit of the ball - it was hardly a foul,let alone a card 

The red card was because Valencia reacted. 

Sterling should play because from Jan he was one of the best players in the prem 

Rooney has done nothing for months and doesn't look fit.


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## Slime (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The team should be 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson

Sterling 
Barkley
Lallana

Sturridge

But can see Woy playing Wellbeck and Rooney instead of Barkley and Sterling
		
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You've got those glasses on again, Phil, I'm a little shocked that you haven't squeezed Lambert in there too!

Rooney for sure. 
Save Sterling for the Uruguay game and hopefully he'll try to tackle Suarez like he tackled Valencia.
Milner had a shocker in defence, he must not play there.
 Ox will hopefully be fit enough to start against Italy.
Possibly a bit early for Barkley and definitely too early for Henderson and Luke Shaw.



*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The red card was a joke - he went in for a tackle got a little bit of the ball - it was hardly a foul,let alone a card 

The red card was because Valencia reacted. 

Sterling should play because from Jan he was one of the best players in the prem 

Rooney has done nothing for months and doesn't look fit.
		
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sorry phil, valencias reaction didn't help. But he went over the ball. Pretty sure that's a red nowadays. 

I agree reed sterling was brilliant, simply saying that I currently think he will fit better as an impact sub, with tiring defenders he could be a massive game changer with 20/30 mins to go. Not sure many others would have such an impact. 

It's not a slight on him as a player, just a tactic I think would work better in the conditions.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 4, 2014)

Haven't seen the game so don't know about the red cards. Woy won't be that cavalier certainly in the first game. Experience will count for a lot in that heat and humidity. If he was going to get the youngsters in I can see him doing it against Uruguay as they'll be scared to death of pace coming at them


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2014)

Slime said:



			You've got those glasses on again, Phil, I'm a little shocked that you haven't squeezed Lambert in there too!

Rooney for sure. 
Save Sterling for the Uruguay game and hopefully he'll try to tackle Suarez like he tackled Valencia.
Milner had a shocker in defence, he must not play there.
 Ox will hopefully be fit enough to start against Italy.
Possibly a bit early for Barkley and definitely too early for Henderson and Luke Shaw.



*Slime*.
		
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Play the players that have performed this season not the "names" - Rooney has done nothing to warrant a place and Wellbeck is not an international player - play those two and England go nowhere. Be brave and play the on form youngsters and England might have a chance.

I know that means no Mancs are near the starting line up but that's prob for the best after this season.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			sorry phil, valencias reaction didn't help. But he went over the ball. Pretty sure that's a red nowadays. 

I agree reed sterling was brilliant, simply saying that I currently think he will fit better as an impact sub, with tiring defenders he could be a massive game changer with 20/30 mins to go. Not sure many others would have such an impact. 

It's not a slight on him as a player, just a tactic I think would work better in the conditions.
		
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It's not a red and he isn't an impact sub - time for England to be brave and be like the other clubs and play the talented players that deserve their place


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The red card was a joke - he went in for a tackle got a little bit of the ball - it was hardly a foul,let alone a card 

The red card was because Valencia reacted. 

Sterling should play because from Jan he was one of the best players in the prem 

Rooney has done nothing for months and doesn't look fit.
		
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No doubt about it a red was deserved.


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## paddyc (Jun 4, 2014)

Yeah for Valencia, Paul.  Sterling's challenge was a bit rash, but he hardly caught him. Valencia's reaction was ridiculous


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## Slime (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*It's not a red* and he isn't an impact sub - time for England to be brave and be like the other clubs and play the talented players that deserve their place
		
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It was a red card offence, no doubt about it, and if Rooney had done it on Sterling, you'd agree.


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 4, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a red and he isn't an impact sub - time for England to be brave and be like the other clubs and play the talented players that deserve their place
		
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Im not saying that he's simply an impact sub. Saying that in that climate he could be a game changer. And if that happened to a Liverpool player you'd being calling for red. Over the top of the ball and catching the player is a red card nowadays. EVERYTIME. 

If we're picking players from this season alone with nothing else mattering then Johnson should be hooked, as should Milner, Wilshere to name a few.


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## chrisd (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm sure that he'll start with Rooney, he looks more likely to score than all but Sturridge


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## Beezerk (Jun 4, 2014)

pbrown7582 said:



View attachment 10852



No doubt about it a red was deserved.
		
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From that pic it looks like he's going to snap his leg in half, that's far from the truth.
I agree it was a red card on the basis it was reckless but it was an honest (if not badly judged) attempt to win the ball and he was a country mile away from Valencia's leg unlike what your photo shows.


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## rosecott (Jun 4, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Im not saying that he's simply an impact sub. Saying that in that climate he could be a game changer. And if that happened to a Liverpool player you'd being calling for red. Over the top of the ball and catching the player is a red card nowadays. EVERYTIME. 

If we're picking players from this season alone with nothing else mattering *then Johnson should be hooked, as should Milner, Wilshere to name a few*.
		
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What does being "hooked" mean? I'm not having a go, I just have no idea what you're trying to say - it may well be an age thing.


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## paddyc (Jun 4, 2014)

rosecott said:



			What does being "hooked" mean? I'm not having a go, I just have no idea what you're trying to say - it may well be an age thing.
		
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Dumped,axed,dropped. I think!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 4, 2014)

rosecott said:



			What does being "hooked" mean? I'm not having a go, I just have no idea what you're trying to say - it may well be an age thing.
		
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Given the hook, the pull. Basically not taken.


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## CMAC (Jun 5, 2014)

rosecott said:



			What does being "hooked" mean? I'm not having a go, I just have no idea what you're trying to say - it may well be an age thing.
		
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actually comes from early stage shows where the stage manager would literally use a long hook to pull bad performers off the stage


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## CMAC (Jun 5, 2014)

paddyc said:



			A good workout against Ecuador, *result not important.* Some decent performances-the Ox stood out though the injury looked a worry. Barkley showed some nice touches and I would like to see him play against the Italians.

Picking the midfield is not an easy one, Gerrard and Lallana and any two of 5 or 6. Rooney and Sturridge will play up front I'm sure, but defensively we looked fragile.

Opinions and team to start against Italy?
		
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havent seen it but I assume they didnt win by that comment?


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## richy (Jun 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, half a season in a mid table team doesn't cut it.
		
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Rooney?


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## guest100718 (Jun 5, 2014)

It was just a a warm up for both teams, but a reasonable game to watch. If sterling is going to be as rash as that in a friendly could we trust him to keep his cool on the biggest stage? Ox looked good and some good stuff from barkley too.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 5, 2014)

If we'd drawn against Luxembourg we'd all be going mad this morning...

4th June 2014: Italy 1 -1 Luxembourg

As for the starting line-up, I agree with LP...

...although for someone who doesn't support England, he does have rather a lot to say about them


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## Cheifi0 (Jun 5, 2014)

I like that team apart from Rooney should start, but he's got to stop coming so deep.  I was impressed with Ox and any one of him Barkley and Sterling would make good impact subs.  Who would you play instead of Henderson?  Wiltshire? I am always worried is going to get come off injured whenever he goes into a challenge.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			If we'd drawn against Luxembourg we'd all be going mad this morning...

4th June 2014: Italy 1 -1 Luxembourg

As for the starting line-up, I agree with LP...

*..although for someone who doesn't support England, he does have rather a lot to say about them *

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Sorry didn't realise I couldn't talk about them if I don't support them ?


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## richy (Jun 5, 2014)

Slime said:



			You've got those glasses on again, Phil, I'm a little shocked that you haven't squeezed Lambert in there too!

Rooney for sure. 
Save Sterling for the Uruguay game and hopefully he'll try to tackle Suarez like he tackled Valencia.
Milner had a shocker in defence, he must not play there.
 Ox will hopefully be fit enough to start against Italy.
Possibly a bit early for Barkley and definitely too early for Henderson and Luke Shaw.



*Slime*.
		
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How can you say it's too early for Henderson? He's had a really good season, much better than any Man Utd player ( I'm assuming you're a Man U supporter going by you biased views). 

I wouldn't say Rooney for sure either. When was the last time he played out of his skin? I wouldn't say he's finished but he definatly isn't putting the performances in like he was 2 years ago. At the moment he's getting a start based on reputation. I hope he proves his critics wrong and FINALLY scores at the World Cup because that means we may do quite well.


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

I don't think we should start with Sterling. He is great running into open spaces, using his pace, but the games, especially in the qualifying are going to be tight. Little room given, and we can not afford to give the ball away cheaply. Sterling didn't impress me in the last few Liverpool games, when teams sat back against them like Chelsea.

Barkley is real class. Has pace, strength, a football brain, and should be in the team to start with. Reminds me of a young Michael Ballack. A player that can hold the ball up, but also seems to be able to find space when others can't.

Rooney has to be told to hold the ball up. Stop doing first time flicks, or long passes that rarely come off. In the heat, against teams like Italy we can not keep giving the ball away. 

My team would to play Italy would

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jag
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Barkley
Lallana
Ox

Sturridge

We can't afford to lose the first game, so no Rooney for me. Bring him in for later games if we need a more positive result.

Someone has to mark Pirlo tight so would put Henderson up against him. Lallana and Ox to tuck in to keep the midfield tight.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

Gonna be slightly controversial here, but although he looks like he's gonna be a star. Did I miss something where Barkley scored and assisted 20 goals last season? If I recall goals and assists together was at most 10?

if he's in the team it's as an attacking option and for me that's not enough. I remember about 4 stunning games, a few bits and bibs. But in way the finished artical. I agree rooney not on fire, but still got 20 goals last year and will get assists. whilst playing in a poor team too. 

Im im all for building for the future, but not sure if Barkley warrants a start when compared to rooney, lallana, sterling or sturridge as an attacking option.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			I don't think we should start with Sterling. He is great running into open spaces, using his pace, but the games, especially in the qualifying are going to be tight. Little room given, and we can not afford to give the ball away cheaply. Sterling didn't impress me in the last few Liverpool games, when teams sat back against them like Chelsea.

Barkley is real class. Has pace, strength, a football brain, and should be in the team to start with. Reminds me of a young Michael Ballack. A player that can hold the ball up, but also seems to be able to find space when others can't.

Rooney has to be told to hold the ball up. Stop doing first time flicks, or long passes that rarely come off. In the heat, against teams like Italy we can not keep giving the ball away. 

My team would to play Italy would

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jag
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Barkley
Lallana
Ox

Sturridge

*We can't afford to lose the first game, so no Rooney for me*. Bring him in for later games if we need a more positive result.

Someone has to mark Pirlo tight so would put Henderson up against him. Lallana and Ox to tuck in to keep the midfield tight.
		
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Rooney scored and assisted more goals than Sterling, Lallana and Barkley last season.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rooney scored and assisted more goals than Sterling, Lallana and Barkley last season.
		
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Some people just don't want to like him. I've never thought he was world class, but comfortably in the next bracket alongside most of players in England's golden generation. 

It will probably happen to Barkley in time. Wilshere was our great hope 4 years ago too. 

Build em me up and knock em down!


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 5, 2014)

Come on, rooney's got to play! He's established, been there and done it. All these other guys have potential but this is the World Cup! Italy would be delighted to see Rooney on the bench!

Oh, and that was a nailed on red card. Can't believe anyone trying to justify such a reckless tackle! Could easily have resulted in a serious injury, the fact that it didn't is not a defence!


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## Beezerk (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Gonna be slightly controversial here, but although he looks like he's gonna be a star. Did I miss something where Barkley scored and assisted 20 goals last season? If I recall goals and assists together was at most 10?

if he's in the team it's as an attacking option and for me that's not enough. I remember about 4 stunning games, a few bits and bibs. But in way the finished artical. I agree rooney not on fire, but still got 20 goals last year and will get assists. whilst playing in a poor team too. 

Im im all for building for the future, but not sure if Barkley warrants a start when compared to rooney, lallana, sterling or sturridge as an attacking option.
		
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But isn't the whole point of this World Cup, IMO at least, to bed in the up and coming youngsters? Give them the experience of big games in the biggest football tournament of all.
People are starting to talk like we have a chance of winning it again, it'll be the same old "experienced" players who've done sod all internationally getting picked, and yet again we'll fail abysmally with a boring "backs to the wall but weren't they brave by losing on penalties" story again!
last night was the most excited I've been in a long time watching an England team, we seemed to have more ideas and guile on the ball than in the last 20 years (18 actually since 1996 )


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Some people just don't want to like him. I've never thought he was world class, but comfortably in the next bracket alongside most of players in England's golden generation. 

It will probably happen to Barkley in time. Wilshere was our great hope 4 years ago too. 

Build em me up and knock em down!
		
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I think that is the problem. He isn't world class but is expected to put in world class performances and when he doesn't he gets slaughtered


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## Rooter (Jun 5, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			But isn't the whole point of this World Cup, IMO at least, to bed in the up and coming youngsters? Give them the experience of big games in the biggest football tournament of all.
		
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Bed the up and coming youngsters up for what? The world cup?! We need to field our strongest team and play to win. Simple. I think RicharTs teams is probably the best suggested line up, with the options of rooney and sterling to impact for the last 30mins.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			But isn't the whole point of this World Cup, IMO at least, to bed in the up and coming youngsters? Give them the experience of big games in the biggest football tournament of all.
People are starting to talk like we have a chance of winning it again, it'll be the same old "experienced" players who've done sod all internationally getting picked, and yet again we'll fail abysmally with a boring "backs to the wall but weren't they brave by losing on penalties" story again!
last night was the most excited I've been in a long time watching an England team, we seemed to have more ideas and guile on the ball than in the last 20 years (18 actually since 1996 )
		
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I would suggest the perfect time for bedding in the youngsters is the upcoming euro qualifiers. Group is a piece of cake and up to 3 teams qualify so no real pressure. Also, as I said. I simply don't think Barkley warrants a starting berth. Potential that he has, he hasn't done it often eniugh. I'm happy for lallana, Henderson, sturridge, sterling to get on (all have little intl experience) as think their seasons have warranted it. I'd even have taken flanagan instead of Johnson as I think he's had a good season and Johnson isn't up to intl level. 

If we're dropping the tried and tested then lampard, Rooney and Gerrard should be on the plane.


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## Beezerk (Jun 5, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Bed the up and coming youngsters up for what? The world cup?! We need to field our strongest team and play to win. Simple. I think RicharTs teams is probably the best suggested line up, with the options of rooney and sterling to impact for the last 30mins.
		
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But we won't win a damn thing, that's the point. Look to the future rather than blinkered with short term gains. It's what the FA have been doing for 50 years.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 5, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			But isn't the whole point of this World Cup, IMO at least, to bed in the up and coming youngsters? Give them the experience of big games in the biggest football tournament of all.
People are starting to talk like we have a chance of winning it again, it'll be the same old "experienced" players who've done sod all internationally getting picked, and yet again we'll fail abysmally with a boring "backs to the wall but weren't they brave by losing on penalties" story again!
last night was the most excited I've been in a long time watching an England team, we seemed to have more ideas and guile on the ball than in the last 20 years (18 actually since 1996 )
		
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It's the World Cup finals, the pinnacle of the sport, you've got to try your best. It's four years until the next one and there are no guarantees you'll qualify or that any of the current crop of youngsters will still be in the team if you do.


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## Rooter (Jun 5, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			But we won't win a damn thing, that's the point.
		
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Not with that attitude! LOL


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## bozza (Jun 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, half a season in a mid table team doesn't cut it.
		
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Started 25 games, came on as sub in 9 so in total he missed 4 games. How does that count as half a season!? 

Yes he makes mistakes and can give the ball away but that's because he has no fear and will try take players on and create chances. 

I'd much rather he made a mistake now and again but tried to create chances/goals than look for the easy pass and play it safe. 

We've been crying out for a young talented player with no fear for years and now we finally have some and it's time to use them.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

bozza said:



			Started 25 games, came on as sub in 9 so in total he missed 4 games. How does that count as half a season!? 

Yes he makes mistakes and can give the ball away but that's because he has no fear and will try take players on and create chances. 

I'd much rather he made a mistake now and again but tried to create chances/goals than look for the easy pass and play it safe. 

We've been crying out for a young talented player with no fear for years and now we finally have some and it's time to use them.
		
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its t's all well and good doing that in the league, I'm under no illusions thinking we will lift the cup. But knowing how fickle our fans are, if Barkley gives the ball away and we get knocked out. Everyone will turn on him, nit said good lad for trying. Of those 34 games he played in, he may have tried lots of stuff, but if can't remember too many highlights. 10 games maybe, as I've said, great potential. But, does he do enough to currently warrant a place ahead of sterling or lallana his most likely competition?


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## bozza (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			its t's all well and good doing that in the league, I'm under no illusions thinking we will lift the cup. But knowing how fickle our fans are, if Barkley gives the ball away and we get knocked out. Everyone will turn on him, nit said good lad for trying. Of those 34 games he played in, he may have tried lots of stuff, but if can't remember too many highlights. 10 games maybe, as I've said, great potential. But, does he do enough to currently warrant a place ahead of sterling or lallana his most likely competition?
		
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How many games has Rooney, Welbeck, Johnson, Milner played well in this season? 

I can probably count them on one hand so on that theory neither of them should start.


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## Slime (Jun 5, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rooney scored and assisted more goals than Sterling, Lallana and Barkley last season.
		
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The problem a lot of people have is that he plays for a mid-table team ................................... called Manchester United!
He'd be first on the team sheet for me, along with Hart and Gerrard.


*Slime*.


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Rooney scored and assisted more goals than Sterling, Lallana and Barkley last season.
		
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 In the Utd team he can get away with losing the ball, as they win it back quickly, well apart from last season. For England lose the ball you don't see it again.

Also be careful with assists. You can pass the ball three yards to someone in your own half, they go on to beat six players and score a wonder goal and you get an assist. We had a player at Reading last season had loads of assists , but was the worst passer in the team. Ball retention, completed passes is just as  important at International level. I didn't watch all the game last night, but what I saw Rooney kept giving the ball away with stupid first time flicks. HOLD THE BLOODY BALL UP !!!!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 5, 2014)

Looks like the Ox could be out. What is it with Arsenal players & injuries??


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 5, 2014)

Just had a bad thought if the Ox is out.....Tom Cleverly


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## Slime (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			In the Utd team he can get away with losing the ball, as they win it back quickly, well apart from last season. For England lose the ball you don't see it again.

Ball retention, completed passes is just as  important at International level. I didn't watch all the game last night, but what I saw Rooney kept giving the ball away with stupid first time flicks. *HOLD THE BLOODY BALL UP !!!!*

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I think you'll find that that was Lambert's brief last night.
Rooney was out on the wing, who was he supposed to hold the ball up for, the full back?
That was Lambert's job as the spearhead of the England team, he failed in that regard, where are the pelters aimed at him?
I thought he had a pretty poor game, average at best, only lit up by his magnificent strike. Apart from that I saw very little.
Wilshire scares me, he's an injury waiting to happen and not as good as he was hyped up to be.
Barkley showed glimpses of real class, I think he's going to get some proper game time.


*Slime*.


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## bladeplayer (Jun 5, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, half a season in a mid table team doesn't cut it.
		
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WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT . i use to like you Murph :angry:


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## AmandaJR (Jun 5, 2014)

The latest is Ox has strained medial ligament so not torn and possibly still going to make the World Cup. Hope so as for me he was our best player last night...


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Slime said:



			I think you'll find that that was Lambert's brief last night.
Rooney was out on the wing, who was he supposed to hold the ball up for, the full back?
That was Lambert's job as the spearhead of the England team, he failed in that regard, where are the pelters aimed at him?
I thought he had a pretty poor game, average at best, only lit up by his magnificent strike. Apart from that I saw very little.
Wilshire scares me, he's an injury waiting to happen and not as good as he was hyped up to be.
Barkley showed glimpses of real class, I think he's going to get some proper game time.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

 Rooney was out on the wing ? Seemed to be coming in field from what I saw. Even wingers should  try andkeep the ball, not give it away cheaply. They are allowed to pass back in field, and don't have to try and beat their man every time. I will change my words for you. KEEP THE BLOODY BALL !!


----------



## Slime (Jun 5, 2014)

Myopia is a funny old thing!


*Slime*.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

bozza said:



			How many games has Rooney, Welbeck, Johnson, Milner played well in this season? 

I can probably count them on one hand so on that theory neither of them should start.
		
Click to expand...

Rooney was utds stand out player, as much as I think he's overrated. The role covered by Rooney or Barkley will be for playing in the hole. One has 25/30 goals/assists this year. The other 10. And you'd pick bakley? Support Everton I presume?


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jun 5, 2014)




----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Rooney was utds stand out player, as much as I think he's overrated. The role covered by Rooney or Barkley will be for playing in the hole. One has 25/30 goals/assists this year. The other 10. And you'd pick bakley? Support Everton I presume?
		
Click to expand...

 Not everyone is blinded by players from their own team.


----------



## Imurg (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Not everyone is blinded by players from their own team.

Click to expand...

Good job really............


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Not everyone is blinded by players from their own team.

Click to expand...

And not everyone is bitter about their 'rivals'. 

If you'd rather a player who's contributed half as many goals in the team then good in ya, but I'll take the one who's got a proven record. 

Btw, I'd still take lambert and Lallana, and I doubt either will be in my team next year.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Not everyone is blinded by players from their own team.

Click to expand...

That's a shame, as a Fulham fan I'd have 20:20 vision :rofl:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2014)

getting really stoked about the world cup - c'mon Engerlaand


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			getting really stoked about the world cup - c'mon Engerlaand
		
Click to expand...

I'm really looking forward to it as well, got a feeling that they will do well this year.

Slight worry about the Goalie that's all.


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			And not everyone is bitter about their 'rivals'. 

If you'd rather a player who's contributed half as many goals in the team then good in ya, but I'll take the one who's got a proven record. 

Btw, I'd still take lambert and Lallana, and I doubt either will be in my team next year.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, why can't you discuss players without seeming to get personal ? It is all about opinions, but you do seem to get rather upset if someone doesn't agree with you. I have no problems with people that support other teams unlike you it seems. To me it means I have something in common, as I love football, and love to chat about it. 

btw I was commenting on the fact that I would select Barkley, and I don't support Everton. :ears:


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			That's a shame, as a Fulham fan I'd have 20:20 vision :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

 What even after some of Steve Sidwell's shots ?


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Sorry, why can't you discuss players without seeming to get personal ? It is all about opinions, but you do seem to get rather upset if someone doesn't agree with you. I have no problems with people that support other teams unlike you it seems. To me it means I have something in common, as I love football, and love to chat about it. 

btw I was commenting on the fact that I would select Barkley, and I don't support Everton. :ears:
		
Click to expand...

when I accused someone of choosin Barkley because supporting Everton, you chose to hit in and subtlety suggest I'm biaised but it's not ok for me to do the same. Every subject that's ever trend to saints has had your little snipes in. You don't like my posts don't comment. There's an ignore button I believe. 

Im not upset if someone disagrees with me, but will general try and justify my point. Have never said anyone is wrong. Have pointed out thing that I belive mean their wrong but never said people can't have an opinion. Much like yourself choosing barlkely. That's your choice. I just don't know why, with the records of the two players someone would.


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Not everyone is blinded by players from their own team.

Click to expand...




Papas1982 said:



			when I accused someone of choosin Barkley because supporting Everton, you chose to hit in and subtlety suggest I'm biaised but it's not ok for me to do the same. Every subject that's ever trend to saints has had your little snipes in. You don't like my posts don't comment. There's an ignore button I believe. 

Im not upset if someone disagrees with me, but will general try and justify my point. Have never said anyone is wrong. Have pointed out thing that I belive mean their wrong but never said people can't have an opinion. Much like yourself choosing barlkely. That's your choice. I just don't know why, with the records of the two players someone would.
		
Click to expand...

My remark meant that I had picked Barkley and I didn't support Everton. I don't do subtle so think you might have got the wrong end of the stick. I also have no problems with local rivals, which you seem to think. I have been to watch Southampton many times with mates, and not when they were playing Reading. Also been to a lot of games at Aldershot and Portsmouth. I love watching football, and can't stand all this local rival rubbish. My comments are made as a football fan, not a supporter of a particular club. 

Sorry you didn't realise this.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			My remark meant that I had picked Barkley and I didn't support Everton. I don't do subtle so think you might have got the wrong end of the stick. I also have no problems with local rivals, which you seem to think. I have been to watch Southampton many times with mates, and not when they were playing Reading. Also been to a lot of games at Aldershot and Portsmouth. I love watching football, and can't stand all this local rival rubbish. My comments are made as a football fan, not a supporter of a particular club. 

Sorry you didn't realise this.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I guess you just don't rate any of the saints players. As you have most Definately made remarks towards them in the past. 

I will hold my hands up and say I presumed your first comment was digging at me as I've been pro saints players. 

As as I said I respect your opinion on Barkley. Going to each the likes of Pompey though? Lost me there!! &#128515;


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

I would chose Barkley because he reminds me of Gazza pre WC1990 - he may not have the stats ( stats never tell the full story ) but he is at the a heart of everything creative about Evertons good play and England's good play last night. He may bit provide the final ball but he will create the chance to allow that final ball to be played. Got to give him a go


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Fair enough, I guess you just don't rate any of the saints players. As you have most Definately made remarks towards them in the past. 

I will hold my hands up and say I presumed your first comment was digging at me as I've been pro saints players. 

As as I said I respect your opinion on Barkley. Going to each the likes of Pompey though? Lost me there!! &#128515;
		
Click to expand...

 Where did I ever say I don't rate Southampton players. All I ever said was I thought Barkley was worth more than Lallana. Lambert is an excellent player. I have commented on here how he is a good hold up player, can drop off, and has a good football brain. When we won at St Mary's a few years back he terorised our defence, kept dropping off at the far past against our full backs. He scored with a rocket though it was deflected.

Lallana is another decent player, and is in my England team. I am pretty sure we tried to buy him when you were in the 1st division. I think Shaw will do a Bale, and move forward into midfield, as he is stronger as an attacking player, than a defender. Rodriquez got a nasty injury, and I would be worried about him next season. Seems to be a player that lacks confidence if not scoring. As I said before, Burnley supporters I spoke to rate Ings more highly, and having seen him last game of the season, he had one sniff on goal, edge of the box, and tucked it away in the corner.  Better player than Charlie Austin in my opinion, even if he was once on our books.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

This made me giggle


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This made me giggle 

View attachment 10872

Click to expand...

 Sterling is across between Norman Hunter, Tommy Smith, Graeme Souness and Roy Keane.:thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 5, 2014)

I think you have to start with Rooney as he has the experience. Certainly for the first game when Italy will be as vulnerable to the heat as us. If we can put up a good performance and particularly if we can win then what a strong position to start. I think pace is the key to the Uruguay game and the ideal time to bring in the young guns


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2014)

Hart

Shaw... tough one between him and Johnson
Cahill
Jag
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Barkley
Rooney.... or Lallana. Rooney may have lost some of the shine but I feel he's more consistent than he's ever been.
Ox

Sturridge

Shaw's defensive abilities were light years ahead of Johnson's this season. He's not as good going forward but with that midfield there won't be any real need. Rooney is a great link player between midfield and the attack, and his ability to cover back shouldn't be underrated. If England were up against tough opposition I'd drop Sturridge for Lambert, who can hold the ball better if its hoofed up to him.

C'mon England!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

Shaw is a left back though ? 

And sounds like Oxlade will struggle to be fit for the tournament


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Ox has ligament damage, and is out for at least 2 weeks if not longer. 

One thing our players must do is stay on their feet in tackles. Leave the ground even if they get the ball and they will be off. Gerrard and Henderson have previous. Foreign refs much stricter than British ones. If Rooney plays he will have to keep his cool against Italy and Uruquay, as they are very good at winding players up.


----------



## pokerjoke (Jun 5, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Hart

Shaw... tough one between him and Johnson
Cahill
Jag
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Barkley
Rooney.... or Lallana. Rooney may have lost some of the shine but I feel he's more consistent than he's ever been.
Ox

Sturridge

Shaw's defensive abilities were light years ahead of Johnson's this season. He's not as good going forward but with that midfield there won't be any real need. Rooney is a great link player between midfield and the attack, and his ability to cover back shouldn't be underrated. If England were up against tough opposition I'd drop Sturridge for Lambert, who can hold the ball better if its hoofed up to him.

C'mon England!
		
Click to expand...

You cant have Shaw and Baines in the same team they both play left back.
Who you going to have at right back?


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Do we have a reserve right back ? Presumably it would be Smalling or Jones, but neither would fill me with confidence.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Do we have a reserve right back ? Presumably it would be Smalling or Jones, but neither would fill me with confidence.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but Smalling would be my pick of the two.
To be honest the defence is the worry.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			You cant have Shaw and Baines in the same team they both play left back.
Who you going to have at right back?
		
Click to expand...

Chelsea played both azpilucueta and Ivanovic. 

Id rather Johnson than Milner. But wouldn't be against shaw at rb.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would chose Barkley because he reminds me of Gazza pre WC1990 - he may not have the stats ( stats never tell the full story ) but he is at the a heart of everything creative about Evertons good play and England's good play last night. He may bit provide the final ball but he will create the chance to allow that final ball to be played. Got to give him a go
		
Click to expand...

But he'd be played in the hole, his role would be assists or goals surely?

i actually thought Ox was the best player on the pitch by a country mile last night. 

I dont remember gazza pre 90. Only after when I thought the media loved him because once in a blue moon he'd do something amazing. But never a full season. I suppose if Barkley is the same, gotta hope he hits a burst of form for tournament.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Do we have a reserve right back ? Presumably it would be Smalling or Jones, but neither would fill me with confidence.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - there isn't really many right back for England to pick from


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## Hobbit (Jun 5, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			You cant have Shaw and Baines in the same team they both play left back.
Who you going to have at right back?
		
Click to expand...

Really? They're both left backs? Well I didn't know that... Baines to play right back.

And I'd send Welbeck and Milner home.


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Gazza had a cracking game at Wembley against the Czechs which got him in the 1990 team. Until then he wasn't a guaranteed starter. Certain players just have that something special, that means you just have to pick them. Gazza 1990, Owen 1998, and I think Barkley has it as well. It also helps that the opposition know nothing about him, and I think that is why Roy is keeping quiet about him, and not singing his praises.

Top teams know what to expect from Rooney, and personally don't think he is any where near the player he was eight years ago. His record of no goals in World Cup Finals is worrying as well.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Gazza had a cracking game at Wembley against the Czechs which got him in the 1990 team. Until then he wasn't a guaranteed starter. Certain players just have that something special, that means you just have to pick them. Gazza 1990, Owen 1998, and I think Barkley has it as well. It also helps that the opposition know nothing about him, and I think that is why Roy is keeping quiet about him, and not singing his praises.

Top teams know what to expect from Rooney, and personally don't think he is any where near the player he was eight years ago. His record of no goals in World Cup Finals is worrying as well.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on :thup:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Gazza had a cracking game at Wembley against the Czechs which got him in the 1990 team. Until then he wasn't a guaranteed starter. Certain players just have that something special, that means you just have to pick them. Gazza 1990, Owen 1998, and I think Barkley has it as well. It also helps that the opposition know nothing about him, and I think that is why Roy is keeping quiet about him, and not singing his praises.

Top teams know what to expect from Rooney, and personally don't think he is any where near the player he was eight years ago. His record of no goals in World Cup Finals is worrying as well.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that sentiment entirely, just for me it would be sterling and Lallana as the unknowns as I think they've done more this season. Don't get me wrong, if he starts I'll support him as much as anyone. Roy is either playing a very clever game as he bad I ally criticised him after the match, it doesn't fancy him at all.


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree with that sentiment entirely, just for me it would be sterling and Lallana as the unknowns as I think they've done more this season. Don't get me wrong, if he starts I'll support him as much as anyone. Roy is either playing a very clever game as he bad I ally criticised him after the match, it doesn't fancy him at all.
		
Click to expand...

 Roy's mind games. He is from the Graham Taylor school of managers.


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## bozza (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Rooney was utds stand out player, as much as I think he's overrated. The role covered by Rooney or Barkley will be for playing in the hole. One has 25/30 goals/assists this year. The other 10. And you'd pick bakley? Support Everton I presume?
		
Click to expand...

Comes to a major tournament for England and Rooney doesn't get a sniff, yes i know he missed most of one due to injury but when it really matters for England he just can't seem to do it. 

He's still a good player but I wouldn't say he's automatic choice to start every game.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Roy's mind games. He is from the Graham Taylor school of managers.

Click to expand...

Not entirley sure that's a good thing lol. 

Long live the turnip!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

bozza said:



			Comes to a major tournament for England and Rooney doesn't get a sniff, yes i know he missed most of one due to injury but when it really matters for England he just can't seem to do it. 

He's still a good player but I wouldn't say he's automatic choice to start every game.
		
Click to expand...

Id say he's an automatic choice, he maybe shouldn't be. But from everything Roy has said. His place is safe. I agree his major tournament record isn't fantastic, banned for 2 games in one and injured in another. But then neither are messi or ronaldos. Some players just seem to peak at right time. No disrespect to the bloke but if Klose scores 2 goals this season he becomes the world cups greatest ever scorer. I doubt he'd be many peoples first pick. Not sure I've been seen him on that bbc list.


----------



## bozza (Jun 5, 2014)

Also on the RB position, Stones can play anywhere across the back 4, mainly a centre back but he's versatile. 

May be asking a little too much of him at this tournament but I'm sure he would do a good job.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 5, 2014)

Johnson for right back - I saw him recently against us and he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people were saying on here, and he's not going to lose the position to Shaw or Milner


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

bozza said:



			Also on the RB position, Stones can play anywhere across the back 4, mainly a centre back but he's versatile. 

May be asking a little too much of him at this tournament but I'm sure he would do a good job.
		
Click to expand...

 He is not in the squad though.


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Johnson for right back - I saw him recently against us and he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people were saying on here, and he's not going to lose the position to Shaw or Milner
		
Click to expand...

 Not sure you can judge him against your lot. You only attack once a game trying to steal a one nil.


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## chrisd (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Not sure you can judge him against your lot. You only attack once a game trying to steal a one nil.
		
Click to expand...

But on that one attack we scored 3 goals :whoo:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Johnson for right back - I saw him recently against us and he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people were saying on here, and he's not going to lose the position to Shaw or Milner
		
Click to expand...

I still remember the last World Cup against Germany. Thinks he's Cafu. Will be caught out positional lay at intl level IMO. They played flanagan against us and I thought he was much better. 

He'll start, can't see Hodgson trying Milner at rb helping his confidence in anyway though. Not sure either stalling or jones are rbs either. They either need to be picked as cb or not at all. It's ok being versatile further forward. But defenders need kt have their own actual position nailed down before they master others.


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			But on that one attack we scored 3 goals :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

 So he was in a defence that leaked three goals against you, and you think he looked good.:mmm:


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## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I still remember the last World Cup against Germany. Thinks he's Cafu. Will be caught out positional lay at intl level IMO. They played flanagan against us and I thought he was much better. 

He'll start, can't see Hodgson trying Milner at rb helping his confidence in anyway though. Not sure either stalling or jones are rbs either. They either need to be picked as cb or not at all. It's ok being versatile further forward. But defenders need kt have their own actual position nailed down before they master others.
		
Click to expand...

Milner was poor for the first Equador goal. He was at least three yards of the bloke that crossed. First priority of a full back should be to cut out the cross. If you are going to play someone out of position play at left back at right back, but not a midfield player.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Milner was poor for the first Equador goal. He was at least three yards of the bloke that crossed. First priority of a full back should be to cut out the cross. If you are going to play someone out of position play at left back at right back, but not a midfield player.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I meant midfielders can play across the park further forward. 
Li think Johnson has to play just because of a lack of cover. If England were gonna go all out youth I'd much rather of had clyne, chambers or firstly flanagan go. I think any of those are as good as Johnson with their best years ahead.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			So he was in a defence that leaked three goals against you, and you think he looked good.:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

No, you Reading supporting donut, I said he wasn't bad!


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Clyne looks a good player. Another one we missed out on. Kieran Trippier at Burnley is a good young right back.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Clyne looks a good player. Another one we missed out on. Kieran Trippier at Burnley is a good young right back.
		
Click to expand...

Pi think clyne will be our lb next season played a dozen games there and looked fine. Him and chambers for one more season then another search for replacements I would imagine.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Clyne looks a good player.
		
Click to expand...

Another player stolen from us in the dark times!


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			No, you Reading supporting donut, I said he wasn't bad!
		
Click to expand...

 Wasn't bad will have to do then. Were you having one of your catnaps when you scored your three goals ?


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Another player stolen from us in the dark times!
		
Click to expand...

Walcott, bale and Ox. Three I'd rather have back too lol


----------



## richart (Jun 5, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Walcott, bale and Ox. Three I'd rather have back too lol
		
Click to expand...

 Chris hasn't gotten over Ian Wright going to Arsenal.


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 5, 2014)

richart said:



			Chris hasn't gotten over Ian Wright going to Arsenal.

Click to expand...

Or Wimbledon going to Milton Keynes?


----------



## chrisd (Jun 6, 2014)

richart said:



			Wasn't bad will have to do then. Were you having one of your catnaps when you scored your three goals ?

Click to expand...


What !!!  The blooming drummer is in the lower tier below us - no chance of any shut eye, but then no need to, as we don't get to play Reading any more! :whoo:




richart said:



			Chris hasn't gotten over Ian Wright going to Arsenal.

Click to expand...

Or Kenny Sansom! :angry:



Papas1982 said:



			Or Wimbledon going to Milton Keynes?
		
Click to expand...

Or Charlton going ....... Well ...... In to oblivion :rofl:


----------



## bozza (Jun 6, 2014)

richart said:



			He is not in the squad though.
		
Click to expand...

Reserve list and he's played in both games which makes me think Roy is tempted to take him. 

If he had some senior international experience before this tournament I think he he would have been picked infron of Phil Jones.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jun 6, 2014)




----------



## 6inchcup (Jun 6, 2014)

paddyc said:



			He's a class act, age and experience don't come into it. He's quick, strong, scores goals, can go past people, create chances. Woy's gotta play him.
		
Click to expand...

and he will be playing for MANCHESTER CITY next season.


----------



## Slime (Jun 6, 2014)

bozza said:



			Comes to a major tournament for England and Rooney doesn't get a sniff, yes i know he missed most of one due to injury but when it really matters *for England he just can't seem to do it. *

He's still a good player but I wouldn't say he's automatic choice to start every game.
		
Click to expand...

39 goals in 91 games ............................ what the hell are you talking about?

[TABLE="class: ranking scorers sortable"]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Charlton
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   49
[/TD]
 			[TD]   19Apr 1958
[/TD]
 			[TD]  20 May 1970
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Gary Lineker
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   48
[/TD]
 			[TD]   26 Mar 1985
[/TD]
 			[TD]  29 Apr 1992
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Jimmy Greaves 
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   44
[/TD]
 			[TD]   17 May 1959
[/TD]
 			[TD]  24 May 1967
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Michael Owen
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   40
[/TD]
 			[TD]   27 May 1998
[/TD]
 			[TD]  12 Sep 2007
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Wayne Rooney
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   39
[/TD]
 			[TD]   06 Sep 2003[/TD]
 			[TD]  04 Jun 2014
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Not too bad!


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Slime said:



			39 goals in 91 games ............................ what the hell are you talking about?

[TABLE="class: ranking scorers sortable"]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Charlton
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   49
[/TD]
 			[TD]   19Apr 1958
[/TD]
 			[TD]  20 May 1970
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Gary Lineker
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   48
[/TD]
 			[TD]   26 Mar 1985
[/TD]
 			[TD]  29 Apr 1992
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Jimmy Greaves 
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   44
[/TD]
 			[TD]   17 May 1959
[/TD]
 			[TD]  24 May 1967
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Michael Owen
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   40
[/TD]
 			[TD]   27 May 1998
[/TD]
 			[TD]  12 Sep 2007
[/TD]
 		[/TR]
 		 		[TR]
 			[TD] Wayne Rooney
 [/TD]
 			[TD]   39
[/TD]
 			[TD]   06 Sep 2003[/TD]
 			[TD]  04 Jun 2014
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Not too bad!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Done well in qualifying 

1 goal in major tournament finals since 2004


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Slime said:



			39 goals in 91 games ............................ what the hell are you talking about?

[TABLE="class: ranking scorers sortable"]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Charlton[/TD]
[TD]   49[/TD]
[TD]   19Apr 1958[/TD]
[TD]  20 May 1970[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Gary Lineker[/TD]
[TD]   48[/TD]
[TD]   26 Mar 1985[/TD]
[TD]  29 Apr 1992[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Jimmy Greaves [/TD]
[TD]   44[/TD]
[TD]   17 May 1959[/TD]
[TD]  24 May 1967[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Michael Owen[/TD]
[TD]   40[/TD]
[TD]   27 May 1998[/TD]
[TD]  12 Sep 2007[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Wayne Rooney[/TD]
[TD]   39[/TD]
[TD]   06 Sep 2003[/TD]
[TD]  04 Jun 2014[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Not too bad!


*Slime*.
		
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leas than a goal every other game isn't that amazing for a striker. All the players above had significantly better records.


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			leas than a goal every other game isn't that amazing for a striker. All the players above had significantly better records.
		
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And many of those games he was played out wide.

Welbeck :  8  goals in 21
Sturridge:  2  goals in 5
Lambert  : 3  goals in 5
Rooney   : 39 goals in 90

I know who I'd choose!


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Slime said:



			And many of those games he was played out wide.

Welbeck :  8  goals in 21
Sturridge:  2  goals in 5
Lambert  : 3  goals in 5
Rooney   : 39 goals in 90

I know who I'd choose!


*Slime*.
		
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He wasn't played out wide for "many" of those games at all 


1 in 4 finals tournaments 

He hasn't turned up in the finals


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Slime said:



			And many of those games he was played out wide.

Welbeck :  8  goals in 21
Sturridge:  2  goals in 5
Lambert  : 3  goals in 5
Rooney   : 39 goals in 90

I know who I'd choose!


*Slime*.
		
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Im not saying to not pick him, just saying his record isn't as impressive as those you held him up against. Also, rooney hasn't played many for England out wide. At UTD yes, but not for England.


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2014)

Admittedly, he didn't score many whilst injured or suspended .


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He wasn't played out wide for "many" of those games at all 


*1 in 4 finals tournaments 
*
He hasn't turned up in the finals
		
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 ??? Do you mean he's only scored in one of four tournaments?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Slime said:



			Admittedly, he didn't score many whilst injured or suspended .


*Slime*.
		
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2006 - WC - started 3 out of 4 - Scored 0

2010 - WC - Started all 4 - Scored 0

2012 - EC - Suspended for 2 then started other two - scored 1


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			??? Do you mean he's only scored in one of four tournaments?
		
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Since 2004 we have qualified for 2 World Cups and 1 EC - Rooney has scored one goal in those three tournaments 

He scored 4 in his first tournament when he burst on the scene in 2004


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Since 2004 we have qualified for 2 World Cups and 1 EC - Rooney has scored one goal in those three tournaments 

He scored 4 in his first tournament when he burst on the scene in 2004
		
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But what other options have we had?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			But what other options have we had?
		
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Eh ? 

Sorry don't see the relevance to his poor performances in major finals ? 

And we have options now


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			2006 - WC - started 3 out of 4 - Scored 0

2010 - WC - Started all 4 - Scored 0

2012 - EC - Suspended for 2 then started other two - scored 1
		
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Injured for one and shouldn't have gone. 

2012 1/2 ain't bad. 

He hasnt got a great record. Personally as I've said, he'd still start for me. Behind sturridge. As I think his experience counts, and by the sounds of things it could be sterling that kisses out not Barkley.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh ? 

Sorry don't see the relevance to his poor performances in major finals ? 

And we have options now
		
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Sorry Phillip I was just pointing out that we haven't been spoilt for choice recently. 
Personally I'd like to see Roy have some balls & drop Rooney. 
But then again Sturridge,Lambert & Welbeck don't exactly fill me with confidence either
Bet you're glad you don't support England hey Phil


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Injured for one and shouldn't have gone. 

2012 1/2 ain't bad. 

He hasnt got a great record. Personally as I've said, he'd still start for me. Behind sturridge. As I think his experience counts, and by the sounds of things it could be sterling that kisses out not Barkley.
		
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Ain't bad ?! He is supposed to be our main striker for the last ten years and hasn't scored one goal in a World Cup finals - I think even Crouch managed to score !! 

He will start - as will Welbeck because Woy hasn't got the balls to plays the players who haven't performed this year and play the players that have earned their place in the line up - it's not a new thing for England managers since Venables - all picked on reputation as opposed to performances.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ain't bad ?! He is supposed to be our main striker for the last ten years and hasn't scored one goal in a World Cup finals - I think even Crouch managed to score !! 

He will start - as will Welbeck because Woy hasn't got the balls to plays the players who haven't performed this year and play the players that have earned their place in the line up - it's not a new thing for England managers since Venables - all picked on reputation as opposed to performances.
		
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Managers including venables did. 

Hes played 7 games and got 0 goals. Lots of players have bad runs. He's also got 5 in 12 overall if yo want to paint the true picture. 

I dont one think welbeck will start, but personally I think you'd be happier if Roy does do all you say, just so you can brow beat him. Imagine Roy had a go and we went out 4-3 in each game. He'd still get slaughtered!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Actually no he wouldn't get slaughtered at all - in fact the totally opposite 

He would actually get some praise for forgetting to play safe and going for it for once 

Play the exciting youngsters and let them express themselves - they have experience and support behind them but playing established experienced players has got England nowhere in the past - time to show some balls and bravery.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually no he wouldn't get slaughtered at all - in fact the totally opposite 

He would actually get some praise for forgetting to play safe and going for it for once 

Play the exciting youngsters and let them express themselves - they have experience and support behind them but playing established experienced players has got England nowhere in the past - time to show some balls and bravery.
		
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Well from what I can see, he has done that in these build up games. 

Only gerrard, Rooney, hart and Johnson are properly established in this team and the teams of recent years. 

Baines, jags, Cahill, Henderson, sterling/ Barkley, lallana and sturridge are the newcomers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Well from what I can see, he has done that in these build up games. 

Only gerrard, Rooney, hart and Johnson are properly established in this team and the teams of recent years. 

Baines, jags, Cahill, Henderson, sterling/ Barkley, lallana and sturridge are the newcomers.
		
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And players like Barkley and Sterling and I reckon even Henderson will sit on the bench 

Whilst cart horses like Wellbeck bumble their way around the pitch. 

Wouldn't surprise to see Milner play instead of Lallana as well .


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2014)

Why does someone who claims to not support the national team have so much opinion on it?? 
Maybe they do care & are simply attention seeking


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Why does someone who claims to not support the national team have so much opinion on it?? 
Maybe they do care & are simply attention seeking

Click to expand...

You seem to have a lot to say about Liverpool and Suarez - :mmm:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And players like Barkley and Sterling and I reckon even Henderson will sit on the bench 

Whilst cart horses like Wellbeck bumble their way around the pitch. 

Wouldn't surprise to see Milner play instead of Lallana as well .
		
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Henderson will start alongside Gerard, I'm sure of that. Lampard will be purely a sub. 

Sterling may may miss out, because red in a friendly or not. In World Cup he would of walked and listening to Hodgkin, he's worried his exuberance may cost him.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seem to have a lot to say about Liverpool and Suarez - :mmm:
		
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As you do to Maureen n Chelsea
But that's irelivent to this thread,not sure why you felt the need to bring Suarez up AGAIN


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			As you do to Maureen n Chelsea
But that's irelivent to this thread,not sure why you felt the need to bring Suarez up AGAIN

Click to expand...

It's as relevant as posting pics about Gerrard not winning the league title or you posting digs at me :thup:

As it's got to that level it's time to leave you to it :thup:


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's as relevant as posting pics about Gerrard not winning the league title or you posting digs at me :thup:

As it's got to that level it's time to leave you to it :thup:
		
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No digs at you Phil 
Everything isn't about you:thup:


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## Beezerk (Jun 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And players like Barkley and Sterling and I reckon even Henderson will sit on the bench 

Whilst cart horses like Wellbeck bumble their way around the pitch. 

Wouldn't surprise to see Milner play instead of Lallana as well .
		
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I sincerely hope this is not the case, I think he would instantly lose the publics support apart from those die hard "Ingerlaand" fans.
We have a great chance here to build for the future, I hope Woy doesn't fritter it away by being too cautious.
Personally I'd much rather us go out in a 4-3 loss where we show potential than a dire penalty loss or bore draw in the group stages.


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## paddyc (Jun 7, 2014)

Regardless of the result and performance today against Honduras, Woy is going to be cagey against Italy and not be adventurous for the first 70. I think Rooney will start just off Sturridge.With Gerrard and Henderson sitting in midfield, with may be Lallana on the left to at least provide a bit flair and unfortunately I think Milner, who IMO is not international quality,gives the ball away too much, does not create anything and can't score goals, in fact he's crap, on the right.


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## guest100718 (Jun 7, 2014)

paddyc said:



			Regardless of the result and performance today against Honduras, Woy is going to be cagey against Italy and not be adventurous for the first 70. I think Rooney will start just off Sturridge.With Gerrard and Henderson sitting in midfield, with may be Lallana on the left to at least provide a bit flair and unfortunately I think Milner, who IMO is not international quality,gives the ball away too much, does not create anything and can't score goals, in fact he's crap, on the right.
		
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I'd like to see Roy take it to the Italians and come out all guns blazing!


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## paddyc (Jun 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I'd like to see Roy take it to the Italians and come out all guns blazing!
		
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So would I with Barkley and Sterling playing , but he won't.If you lose the first game your really up against it to go through from the group.Get ready for a 0-0 bore draw.


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## richy (Jun 7, 2014)

I know it's only another friendly but Welbeck starting again. Give me strength


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## wrighty1874 (Jun 7, 2014)

If Roy gives youth and pace a chance then I will have no complaints, but if he goes with the tried and already failed then he will have disappointed me greatly, because we already know the outcome of that route.


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## Slime (Jun 7, 2014)

Come on people, have a bit of confidence, will you!
Support the team, regardless of whether or not you agree with the team sheet.
I'm English and I'm an England supporter.

*COME ON ENGLAND*.

*Slime*.


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## Wayman (Jun 7, 2014)

Slime said:



			Come on people, have a bit of confidence, will you!
Support the team, regardless of whether or not you agree with the team sheet.
I'm English and I'm an England supporter.

*COME ON ENGLAND*.

*Slime*.
		
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Agree with this'!!!


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## paddyc (Jun 7, 2014)

Glen Johnson's having a blinder!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 7, 2014)

Slime said:



			Come on people, have a bit of confidence, will you!
Support the team, regardless of whether or not you agree with the team sheet.
I'm English and I'm an England supporter.

*COME ON ENGLAND*.

*Slime*.
		
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I fully support England,but if I'm honest I've got no expectations. 
England v Italy as got 0-0 written all over it. Beat Costa Rica & not sure About Uruguay,they've got a couple of decent players in Cavani & Suarez. But they're beatable.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

A rather pathetic dive there, a sign of desperation from someone who's having a bit of a shocker.


*Slime*.


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## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2014)

Well that was entertaining - not. Too slow and deliberate going forward on far too many occasions - drop Rooney & Welbeck, both who under performed domestically last season. As for the defence... they looked decidedly shaky when players ran at them + some very poor passing out of defence didn't bode well. A decent team would have battered England last night.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Well that was entertaining - not. Too slow and deliberate going forward on far too many occasions - drop Rooney & Welbeck, both who under performed domestically last season. As for the defence... they looked decidedly shaky when players ran at them + some very poor passing out of defence didn't bode well. A decent team would have battered England last night.
		
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Agree with this. 

I wish Flanagan was more experienced at international level because Johnson looks terrible. Flanagan looks a lot more solid and I'm sure he'll be England's future right back


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## quinn (Jun 8, 2014)

Don't know why people moan about a warm up game, doesn't mean anything, we've got one of the best squads we've had for a long time.admittedly wer'e shaky at the back which is a bit worrying against the better teams, but wev'e finally got some great young talent coming through, the team that started last night will be the one to start v Italy with sterling coming in for welbeck,we've got nothing to fear playing Italy. I hope Roy's brave enough to play the youngsters at some point,he's got plenty of options to bring  on and change games, the ox and sterlings pace will cause any team problems,berkley is going to be a world class player one day, this World Cup might be to soon for him but look at what Owen did in 98. Too many fans are too quick to knock England, get behind the boys, got a feeling wer'e going to surprise a few people, I reckon 1/4 finals at least.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 8, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Well that was entertaining - not. Too slow and deliberate going forward on far too many occasions - drop Rooney & Welbeck, both who under performed domestically last season. As for the defence... they looked decidedly shaky when players ran at them + some very poor passing out of defence didn't bode well. A decent team would have battered England last night.
		
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I think you're reading far too much into it. After the rain delay it looked like all the players wanted to do was get through uninjured (and with some of the Honduran "tackling" it's lucky they did). Sturridge should have scored at least once.

The defence is a concern though, but I didn't need last night to tell me that.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I think you're reading far too much into it. After the rain delay it looked like all the players wanted to do was get through uninjured (and with some of the Honduran "tackling" it's lucky they did). Sturridge should have scored at least once.

The defence is a concern though, but I didn't need last night to tell me that.
		
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People keep saying the defence in a concern but last night we failed to break down a below par team that was down to 10 men for a substantial period of the game. That's not down to the defence.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			People keep saying the defence in a concern but last night we failed to break down a below par team that was down to 10 men for a substantial period of the game. That's not down to the defence.
		
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I don't think we failed to break them down, Sturridge just failed to hit the target when we did. You can probably put Sturridge's misses down to a one off, but the defence has looked shaky without even being put under much pressure.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Was the game that bad ? Looked at the score this morning - a team of those players should comfortably be able to beat Honduras - especially when players are playing for places.

the BBC ratings arent kind to anyone with Barkley it appears standing out again.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was the game that bad ? Looked at the score this morning - a team of those players should comfortably be able to beat Honduras - especially when players are playing for places.

the BBC ratings arent kind to anyone with Barkley it appears standing out again.
		
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No it was a friendly where no-one wanted to get injured. Honduras parked the bus and rarely went forward, they had a few long range shots but never looked like scoring. Sturridge should have scored at least once.

The rain delay killed the game to be honest


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was the game that bad ? Looked at the score this morning - a team of those players should comfortably be able to beat Honduras - especially when players are playing for places.

the BBC ratings arent kind to anyone with Barkley it appears standing out again.
		
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Second half we looked a little better with Barkley on for Rooney.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I don't think we failed to break them down, Sturridge just failed to hit the target when we did. You can probably put Sturridge's misses down to a one off, but the defence has looked shaky without even being put under much pressure.
		
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Not sure how you can judge the defence when like you said they weren't really put under too much pressure. 

I agree Johnson is a weak link and he isn't as good at going forward as people like to think. All I see him do is cut inside and lose position. Heard someone mention he was a great 'false number 2'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Second half we looked a little better with Barkley on for Rooney.
		
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Will Woy have the balls to drop him !


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will Woy have the balls to drop him !
		
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In a word......NO


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Not sure how you can judge the defence when like you said they weren't really put under too much pressure. 

I agree Johnson is a weak link and he isn't as good at going forward as people like to think. All I see him do is cut inside and lose position. Heard someone mention he was a great 'false number 2'.
		
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There is no competition for him at the moment - needs someone to challenge him. Not playing well at all


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no competition for him at the moment - needs someone to challenge him. Not playing well at all
		
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How do you rate Flanagan for the future being a Liverpool fan?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			How do you rate Flanagan for the future being a Liverpool fan?
		
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Not sure - he is very solid defensively , really brave in the tackle but still a bit immature in terms of positionally sense but getting better. Going forward he doesnt have the pace and skill of other FB's but he puts in a great cross and can pick out a good pass - wouldnt call him an adventurous FB

He has been playing left back for us mainly and done a very good job and can see him being a good club player - not sure about international


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was the game that bad ? Looked at the score this morning - a team of those players should comfortably be able to beat Honduras - especially when players are playing for places.

the BBC ratings arent kind to anyone with Barkley it appears standing out again.
		
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dont particularly think Barkley was too outstanding. Gave it away more than his passes were succesful. Also played mainly against 10 players. I actually think the performance was ok. All our chances (3 golden) fell to sturridge and he missed them. Better now than in wc. Johnson still looks a liability, at appears all teams are targeting him. Same flanagan only on reserves list.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			dont particularly think Barkley was too outstanding. Gave it away more than his passes were succesful. Also played mainly against 10 players. I actually think the performance was ok. All our chances (3 golden) fell to sturridge and he missed them. Better now than in wc. Johnson still looks a liability, at appears all teams are targeting him. Same flanagan only on reserves list.
		
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Do you see Barkley as a threat to Lallana ?

The player is very highly rated by many and has been crucial to Everton doing so well this season but you appear to dismiss him or any positive talk of him


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## bozza (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			dont particularly think Barkley was too outstanding. Gave it away more than his passes were succesful. Also played mainly against 10 players. I actually think the performance was ok. All our chances (3 golden) fell to sturridge and he missed them. Better now than in wc. Johnson still looks a liability, at appears all teams are targeting him. Same flanagan only on reserves list.
		
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That's the way Barkley is, he is still young and has a lot to learn but he has no fear at all and always wants the ball no matter who the opposition. 

Barkley, OX and Sterling are the players that can win games from nothing.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you see Barkley as a threat to Lallana ?

The player is very highly rated by many and has been crucial to Everton doing so well this season but you appear to dismiss him or any positive talk of him
		
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Firstly ohil I watched the game, secondly. No I don't see him as a threat as Lallana will play wide and Barkely centrally. I have said Barkely looks a great prospect. But he does give the ball away a lot as he tries things. Martinez himself has said he tried to get Barkely away from his own half as errors could cost. 
Im pro Rooney for the line up as your pro Barkely, yet I've not accused you of favourtism. 

You dodnt watch the game, you asked how people payed and based your opinion on a bbc write up.

***edit. Just read review, unless bbc have to match reports. Barkley was described as lively and given a 6. Same as most of our attacking players. So how is it me showing bias?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

bozza said:



			That's the way Barkley is, he is still young and has a lot to learn but he has no fear at all and always wants the ball no matter who the opposition. 

Barkley, OX and Sterling are the players that can win games from nothing.
		
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Barkely and sterling I'd agree. But all this talk of Ox has been after one good game in a friendly. 
I don't think he was in anybodies line up before that friendly. And I'm not sure he's done enough to get in the line up, especially with injury. 

Id say sturridge, Rooney, Gerrard, Lallana and even a lampard punt are as likely to score from nowhere as the other threee

I think from last night Welbeck should be dropped in place of sterling or Barkely, other than that I'd go with the team we selected.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

I'd be very surprised if Milner doesn't start v Italy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Firstly ohil I watched the game, secondly. No I don't see him as a threat as Lallana will play wide and Barkely centrally. I have said Barkely looks a great prospect. But he does give the ball away a lot as he tries things. Martinez himself has said he tried to get Barkely away from his own half as errors could cost. 
Im pro Rooney for the line up as your pro Barkely, yet I've not accused you of favourtism. 

You dodnt watch the game, you asked how people payed and based your opinion on a bbc write up.
		
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As i said anytime someone has mentioned Barkley with any sort of positivity its immediatly dismissed

And as for Martinez these are a couple of things he has said about him

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor.../roberto-martinez-ross-barkley-should-7233258

http://talksport.com/football/martinez-phenomenal-barkley-ready-world-cup-14050489830

Plus multiple of reports of him from many other sources 

Nothing about favourites but he is showing exactly what Gazza did just before WC90 

Rooney is tried and tested and not worked and even the friendlies still not working - Barkley is. 

Woy wont pick him - but then he wouldnt have picked Gazza WC90 or Owen WC98 - he doesnt take those risks , risks that need to be taken to do well in WC. Playing safe works over a league season when looking to keep a team in the prem but when you have 3 games and 3 games only you need to take the risks

When the Italy game comes around Woy will pick the tried and tested and it will be the shortcomings of England and thats a shame when there are so many talented youngsters in that squad that if picked could easily surprise a few.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'd be very surprised if Milner doesn't start v Italy.
		
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Me also.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Me also.
		
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Can't see either team really going for it. 0-0 bore draw & both teams would be pretty happy with that.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'd be very surprised if Milner doesn't start v Italy.
		
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Really? On what grounds? A poor display at right back


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Really? On what grounds? A poor display at right back
		
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Because he is the safe bet - can see him part of the three alonsgide Rooney and Wellbeck behind Sturridge


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said anytime someone has mentioned Barkley with any sort of positivity its immediatly dismissed

And as for Martinez these are a couple of things he has said about him

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor.../roberto-martinez-ross-barkley-should-7233258

http://talksport.com/football/martinez-phenomenal-barkley-ready-world-cup-14050489830

Plus multiple of reports of him from many other sources 

Nothing about favourites but he is showing exactly what Gazza did just before WC90 

Rooney is tried and tested and not worked and even the friendlies still not working - Barkley is. 

Woy wont pick him - but then he wouldnt have picked Gazza WC90 or Owen WC98 - he doesnt take those risks , risks that need to be taken to do well in WC. Playing safe works over a league season when looking to keep a team in the prem but when you have 3 games and 3 games only you need to take the risks

When the Italy game comes around Woy will pick the tried and tested and it will be the shortcomings of England and thats a shame when there are so many talented youngsters in that squad that if picked could easily surprise a few.
		
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 Remind me ho we won the world cup in italia 90, or 98? Those risks paid of big style phil?

Everytime this conversation comes up, i choose to prefer Rooney, you choose Barkely. It's not me having an agenda against barkley. If i'm proven wrong i'll hjold my hands up. And i;m not claiming that Rooney is the worlds best. But imo as ive already stated. I think whoever plays in the hole has to have a goals threat. From seeing barkely this year he may well score 1 wonder goal. But will he get 3 or 4? Rooney as you've shown has a poor wc record. But is stil a proven goalscorer and will i think show more of a threat.

Just because i disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, or vice versa. You dont always have to tyry and prove your point is the only point. 

Whoever plays i'll wish well, but i dont think that being the next gazza is that special. Gazza would enterain greatly, but 90 aside, i dont remember him lighting a tournament up.

Read your two articles. Basically says Ross is our best prospect (i agree), and he should play his own game (i agree). 

Also says that we shouldn't build him up too much either, but he;s being heralded as a saviour. 

If woy starts with rooney we're doomed etc, show some courage blah blah.


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'd be very surprised if Milner doesn't start v Italy.
		
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I think there'll be 20,000 remote controls and 40,000 pints thrown at the tv if it happens.
Barkley was playing more like a striker for me, he needs to come deeper and get on the ball more. It's the first time in years I've got genuinely excited when an England player gets the ball.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because he is the safe bet - can see him part of the three alonsgide Rooney and Wellbeck behind Sturridge
		
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Milner and Welbeck in the starting line up?

I hope to God you're wrong. That would be unbearable


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Whoever plays i'll wish well, but i dont think that being the next gazza is that special. Gazza would enterain greatly, but 90 aside, i dont remember him lighting a tournament up.
		
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Erm 96? 
He was crocked for the rest or we didn't qualify, didn't Taylor also bottle it and didn't pick him against what he thought were "clogger" teams.
Again with England until Venables came in, we were afraid to build teams around our best talent.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			I think there'll be 20,000 remote controls and 40,000 pints thrown at the tv if it happens.
Barkley was playing more like a striker for me, he needs to come deeper and get on the ball more. It's the first time in years I've got genuinely excited when an England player gets the ball.
		
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I agree re milner, I don't think he will start though. If he does it may be in place of Hernderson just as someone to stick to pirlo. I think having watched the games and seen his selections. 

Sturridge
Rooney
Lallana
Gerrard

are nailed on an then it'll be henderson or milner in middle and sterling/barkley/welbeck as lasat attacking option.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Remind me ho we won the world cup in italia 90, or 98? Those risks paid of big style phil?

Everytime this conversation comes up, i choose to prefer Rooney, you choose Barkely. It's not me having an agenda against barkley. If i'm proven wrong i'll hjold my hands up. And i;m not claiming that Rooney is the worlds best. But imo as ive already stated. I think whoever plays in the hole has to have a goals threat. From seeing barkely this year he may well score 1 wonder goal. But will he get 3 or 4? Rooney as you've shown has a poor wc record. But is stil a proven goalscorer and will i think show more of a threat.

Just because i disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, or vice versa. You dont always have to tyry and prove your point is the only point. 

Whoever plays i'll wish well, but i dont think that being the next gazza is that special. Gazza would enterain greatly, but 90 aside, i dont remember him lighting a tournament up.

Read your two articles. Basically says Ross is our best prospect (i agree), and he should play his own game (i agree). 

Also says that we shouldn't build him up too much either, but he;s being heralded as a saviour. 

If woy starts with rooney we're doomed etc, show some courage blah blah.
		
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Gazza played two major tournaments - 90 WC and 96 Euros - check out Englands performances in those tournaments 

England in 1990 had their best ever World Cup since 1966 and hasnt been replicated since apart from 96 in the Euros - one player was at the heart of both of those and that is Gazza - That is the sort or potential that Barkley has - Martinez also states that Barkley would be straight into other international teams like Spain and i agree.

We have a wonderful talent on our hands and everytime someone does say something positive about him its dismissed - no one has heralded him a saviour etc etc etc but only one person keeps dismissing him. Barkley may not be a goalscorer but he will create the chances and create something out of nothing - he glides past players - you could see that in the game against Ecuador - went plast players with ease and was at the centre of everything good.

I remember Graham Taylor dropping Gazza in favour of safe players like Gordon Cowans and not taking the risk with someone like Gazza - Woy will do the same with Barkley. You agree with him - but one day there will be a realization that risks will need to be taken. History has already shown that with other teams - England one day will catch up and may actually make another challenge when they do.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Erm 96? 
He was crocked for the rest or we didn't qualify, didn't Taylor also bottle it and didn't pick him against what he thought were "clogger" teams.
		
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You mean the one goal against scotland? And a celebration? That sums gazza up for me, a great enteratiner. But if we're relying on someone to replicate his perfromances then we're waiting on the wrong person.

Shearer and Teddy we far better performers.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Really? On what grounds? A poor display at right back
		
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Not at right back,in his usual position. 
Like Phil said he's the safe bet. 
Milner isn't a bad player & in a game like the Italy one I reckon he's nailed on to start. Not sure if Welbeck will.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			You mean the one goal against scotland? And a celebration? That sums gazza up for me, a great enteratiner. But if we're relying on someone to replicate his perfromances then we're waiting on the wrong person.

Shearer and Teddy we far better performers.
		
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If you really think that was his sole contribution during that tournament then you would be extremely mistaken beyond belief - Shearer and Sheringham got the goals but someone wa supplying them with the ammunition - Gazza - he lit up the tournament after that Switzerland game and the atmopshere in the stadiums was amazing because of him. It was a great tournament and Gazza was at the heart of it


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## richart (Jun 8, 2014)

I personally think we need to give the younger players a chance. We have all seen what players like Rooney, Lampard, Milner have done at previous World Cups, Euro's, and they are certainly not better players now than a few years back. We might struggle through the qualifying and get knocked out by the first decent team we come up against. 

Lallana and Barkley were the two most exciting players last night. Yes they will give the ball away because they are looking to get forward and create chances. Both looked a real threat, and Barkley actually looked better when Honduras had 11 men. After the sending off they sat back and there was less space.

Do we play the same old team, that we all know will struggle through the World Cup, or go with Lallana, Barkley, Sterling, Shaw, etc players the opposition no little about, and give it a real go. I can't see we have much to lose.

I also found it strange we arranged a 'friendly' with Honduras.  They were obviously looking to take players out with their style of play, and I hope we have no injuries. Not as if we didn't know how they would play. I suppose it was preparation for Uruquay.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gazza played two major tournaments - 90 WC and 96 Euros - check out Englands performances in those tournaments 

England in 1990 had their best ever World Cup since 1966 and hasnt been replicated since apart from 96 in the Euros - one player was at the heart of both of those and that is Gazza - That is the sort or potential that Barkley has - Martinez also states that Barkley would be straight into other international teams like Spain and i agree.

We have a wonderful talent on our hands and *everytime someone does say something positive about him its dismissed* - no one has heralded him a saviour etc etc etc but only one person keeps dismissing him. Barkley may not be a goalscorer but he will create the chances and create something out of nothing - he glides past players - you could see that in the game against Ecuador - went plast players with ease and was at the centre of everything good.

I remember Graham Taylor dropping Gazza in favour of safe players like Gordon Cowans and not taking the risk with someone like Gazza - Woy will do the same with Barkley. You agree with him - but one day there will be a realization that risks will need to be taken. History has already shown that with other teams - England one day will catch up and may actually make another challenge when they do.
		
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Now no phil, lets not put words in my mouth. We know how much you hate that. I haven't said he is no good. Simply that he is being built up too much in my opinion. Just like whenever someone sings rooneys parises you'll jump on him. Or constanly call Roy Woy, we all have our own agendas.

Gazza enteratined at euro 96. I don't think he was our best player then by a long shot.

So barkely would now take Xavi, Fabregas or Inestas spot? Xavi alsosaid Le Tiss would walk into the spain side (literally as he wouldn't run) But i doubt any would agree with that.

I have stated Barkely is a talent, but said i pesonally wouldn't start him. You aren;t gonna change it so just leave it alone already.

I shan't comment on Barkely again as these circles are making me dizzy.

I just hope if Barkely if he plays, plays as well as you seem convinced he will, because you may be a nice supportive fan, but as your opinions on Rooney show. Footy fans are fickle. Owen, Walcott, Rooney have all been built up as the next hero and then get torn to shreds when they don't set the world alight.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree re milner, I don't think he will start though. If he does it may be in place of Hernderson just as someone to stick to pirlo. I think having watched the games and seen his selections. 

Sturridge
Rooney
Lallana
Gerrard

are nailed on an then it'll be henderson or milner in middle and sterling/barkley/welbeck as lasat attacking option.
		
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I agree that Rooney will start but going on the 3 warm up games he shouldn't. He has done nothing of note in those games apart from a 1 yard tap in. 

The only thing I hope is that Roy isn't affraid to drop players who aren't performing during the tournament no matter who it is.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you really think that was his sole contribution during that tournament then you would be extremely mistaken beyond belief - Shearer and Sheringham got the goals but someone wa supplying them with the ammunition - Gazza - he lit up the tournament after that Switzerland game and the atmopshere in the stadiums was amazing because of him. It was a great tournament and Gazza was at the heart of it
		
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You genuinely think the atmosphere was down to Gazza? England during major tournaments are always greatly supported. And it being at home will also contribute to that. As i've said, Gazza was a great entertainer so will have been supported well. As for this supplying of goals, i seem to remember assists being dismissed as a vaild contribution as a player could play a square pass and then the goalscorer dribble round the players and score.

If i recall though, our wing backs conributed quite a lot to as we didnt play through the middle (gazza) all the time.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I agree that Rooney will start but going on the 3 warm up games he shouldn't. He has done nothing of note in those games apart from a 1 yard tap in. 
*
The only thing I hope is that Roy isn't affraid to drop players who aren't performing during the tournament no matter who it is*.
		
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Fully agree with this, I'm not too sure any of the players have come out of the friendlies looking a whole lot better. Ox probably biggest profile rise and johnson most tarnished.


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## richart (Jun 8, 2014)

Taking a chance on new/young players has worked in the past. Lineker and Beardsley 1986, David Platt in 1990, Overshowed by Gascoigne, but that goal against Belgium.:thup:


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I agree that Rooney will start but going on the 3 warm up games he shouldn't. He has done nothing of note in those games apart from a 1 yard tap in. 

The only thing I hope is that Roy isn't affraid to drop players who aren't performing during the tournament no matter who it is.
		
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I agree,but Roy won't drop Rooney or Gerrard regardless of performances IMO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			You genuinely think the atmosphere was down to Gazza? England during major tournaments are always greatly supported. And it being at home will also contribute to that. As i've said, Gazza was a great entertainer so will have been supported well. As for this supplying of goals, i seem to remember assists being dismissed as a vaild contribution as a player could play a square pass and then the goalscorer dribble round the players and score.

If i recall though, our wing backs conributed quite a lot to as we didnt play through the middle (gazza) all the time.
		
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Wingbacks ? Maybe in the Germany game when we lost Neville and Platt came in for in and they played Pearce as a Cb

We played 4-4-2 for the majority of that tournament

Seaman

Neville
Southgate
Adams
Pearce

Anderton
Ince
Gazza
McManaman

Shearer
Sheringham 

Platt came in for Ince against Spain when he was suspended

I was there for every game at Wembley - the first game was stall very edgy , then it came alive against Scotland with Gazza right at the heart of it. That continued through into the Holland games then Spain and then into the Germany match. Gazza was supreme during 96 - at his best.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

richart said:



			Taking a chance on new/young players has worked in the past. Lineker and Beardsley 1986, David Platt in 1990, Overshowed by Gascoigne, but that goal against Belgium.:thup:
		
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Some of those are a bit before my time lol.

Euro 96 is my first real memories with us mising USA. 
I just remember as an impressionable young tean of 13 being more excited by Macca than gazza. 

Racking memory and Scotland he scores a decent goal, Holland was great tem performance. Ince was great. Spain was nervy (win won a shoutout!!) Germany, maybe i'd love GAzza more if he was 6 inches taller.

I'm probably just biased. I watched Le Tiss out perform gazza on a weekly basis but as he wasn't a spurs boy get over looked. 

Think I'll youtube and catch up with you oldies


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Wingbacks ? Maybe in the Germany game when we lost Neville and Platt came in for in and they played Pearce as a Cb

We played 4-4-2 for the majority of that tournament

Seaman

Neville
Southgate
Adams
Pearce

Anderton
Ince
Gazza
McManaman

Shearer
Sheringham 

Platt came in for Ince against Spain when he was suspended

I was there for every game at Wembley - the first game was stall very edgy , then it came alive against Scotland with Gazza right at the heart of it. That continued through into the Holland games then Spain and then into the Germany match. Gazza was supreme during 96 - at his best.
		
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I'd refer to fullbackas these days as wingbacks. Long gone are the days when they'd sit back. I was basically saying that our wide play with fb/wb and wingers being key. All i know is as a youngster, Gazza wasn't the mainmain in my eyes Did some entertaining tricks, was good in a tight space. But wasn't the key to our success imo. But as i've mentioned already, probably jut bitter over Le Tiss.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richart said:



			Taking a chance on new/young players has worked in the past. Lineker and Beardsley 1986, David Platt in 1990, Overshowed by Gascoigne, but that goal against Belgium.:thup:
		
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96 - Neville and Southgate

98 - Scholes , Owen and even Beckham 

Even Rooney in 04

Take the risks - what is there to lose ?


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## DAVEYBOY (Jun 8, 2014)

Haven't read the thread but my thoughts on England... We have no chance of winning but I'll enjoy the World Cup anyway :thup:


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			Haven't read the thread but my thoughts on England... We have no chance of winning but I'll enjoy the World Cup anyway :thup:
		
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Agreed. My money is on the Argies


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2014)

DAVEYBOY said:



			Haven't read the thread but my thoughts on England... We have no chance of winning but I'll enjoy the World Cup anyway :thup:
		
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Indeed, which is exactly why we need to give the young guns a run in the tournament.


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## Dodger (Jun 8, 2014)

Are Engerland home yet?

How does Henderson get in the squad? An awful footballer.

Him and Wellbeck are a waste of 2 plane tickets.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



*Are Engerland home yet?*

How does Henderson get in the squad? An awful footballer.

Him and Wellbeck are a waste of 2 plane tickets.
		
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England may not do too well but at least they get there - when was the last time for the "Tartan Army  " - 98 ? 

Henderson gets in the "team" ( not just the squad )because he has had a great season playing to a very good level throughout. Fully deserves his place in the team.


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## Dodger (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			England may not do too well but at least they get there - when was the last time for the "Tartan Army  " - 98 ? 

Henderson gets in the "team" ( not just the squad )because he has had a great season playing to a very good level throughout. Fully deserves his place in the team.
		
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That catch was too easy.

Henderson is a nothing footballer,nothing.


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## Dodger (Jun 8, 2014)

Your lot may well have won the league with a footballer in his position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



			That catch was too easy.

Henderson is a nothing footballer,nothing.
		
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Henderson is a player who has been at the heart of a team challenging for the title - certainly better than anything seen over the border. But im guessing you will prob have more experience of nothing footballers :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Your lot may well have won the league with a footballer in his position.
		
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Well we did have our worst results when he was suspended towards the end and he didnt play but not sure you would like facts to get in the way of anything.


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## CMAC (Jun 8, 2014)

have a day off you two

this constant bickering is worse than the playground.


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2014)

Don't feed the troll!


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## Dodger (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Henderson is a player who has been at the heart of a team challenging for the title - certainly better than anything seen over the border. But im guessing you will prob have more experience of nothing footballers :thup:
		
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I am not questioning the standard in Scotland I am merely giving my opinion on Henderson who is a nothing footballer.

No doubt you will agree on my assessment of Wellbeck though.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



			That catch was too easy.

Henderson is a nothing footballer,nothing.
		
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I'm not a Liverpool fan but he was one of their players of the season. 

Your comment simply shows your lack of footballing knowledge.


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## gmc40 (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I'm not a Liverpool fan but he was one of their players of the season. 

Your comment simply shows your lack of footballing knowledge.
		
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What that man said


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## Dodger (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I'm not a Liverpool fan but he was one of their players of the season. 

Your comment simply shows your lack of footballing knowledge.
		
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I'll await his shining performances over the next 3 weeks then.

They won't happen by the way.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm on the fence with henderson. He deserves his place in the team as has perfromed well. I think Gerrard has a big influence on that. 

Not sure he'll be in the england team long term, *IF* wilshere can last 6 month fit and healthy.

He does a lot of Gerrards running now, allowing gerrard to play make.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I'll await his shining performances over the next 3 weeks then.

They won't happen by the way.
		
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Depends on what your expectations of him are - he is someone in the middle who provides the continuity - the energy , clears up the rubbish and is all over the pitch being available for a pass and then just passing it on , he is a link man who will pop up with the odd goal and provide an assist - he allows other players to go and express themselves , he has the energy to fill in the holes. its solid , dirty unspectacular work that most of the times goes un-noticed but has been crucial for us and could provide a very good pivot role. He isnt going to light up the tournament and score wonder goals but he can provide a vital cog in a well oiled machine. 

when he got suspended we missed him badly.

This is a very good article about both Henderson and Ramsey

http://eplindex.com/53518/premier-leagues-improved-players-henderson-ramsey.html


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I'll await his shining performances over the next 3 weeks then.

They won't happen by the way.
		
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I think your crystal ball is broken


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## c1973 (Jun 8, 2014)

Only skim read the last few pages. 

My take on things is this;

'96 Gazza was quite possibly at his peak, phenomenal player. How you lot never won that tourney is mind boggling to be perfectly honest.

This World Cup? Haven't saw much of England but having saw quite a bit of the EPL I'm actually looking forward to seeing how you get on, but imho you need to take a chance with the up and coming stars. 

That's my 2 cents worth.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Henderson looked massively over priced when Liverpool signed him,but he's looking like a bit of a bargain now IMO. 
Sorry but he's far from being a nothing player.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Not sure how you can judge the defence when like you said they weren't really put under too much pressure. 

I agree Johnson is a weak link and he isn't as good at going forward as people like to think. All I see him do is cut inside and lose position. Heard someone mention he was a great 'false number 2'.
		
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The fact they can look shaky when not under pressure is enough to concern me. There was some very ropey passing between the back four which was what caused what pressure we were put under. Against a better team that sloppiness will be punished.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Barkely and sterling I'd agree. But all this talk of Ox has been after one good game in a friendly. 
I don't think he was in anybodies line up before that friendly. And I'm not sure he's done enough to get in the line up, especially with injury. 

Id say sturridge, Rooney, Gerrard, Lallana and even a lampard punt are as likely to score from nowhere as the other threee

I think from last night Welbeck should be dropped in place of sterling or Barkely, other than that I'd go with the team we selected.
		
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We always pin our hopes on the player who is injured. Last time wasn't it Gareth Barry of all people who would have been our saviour had he not been injured? Before that I think Rooney and Owen both went into tournaments injured.

The problem with England is that we put all our hopes on one player, put them up on some pedestal and slag them off when they fail to live up to the hype we created for them.

We have a team of Good players, nothing more. If they all play well we might get to the quarter final, if they don't we will no doubt pick one of them out to be the scapegoat (I suspect this time it will be Rooney)


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

On the world stage England do not have the players man to man to match the top four sides in the world. We're competitive at a second level of nations but even then not guaranteed to beat anyone. We simply lack quality and depth.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			On the world stage England do not have the players man to man to match the top four sides in the world. We're competitive at a second level of nations but even then not guaranteed to beat anyone. We simply lack quality and depth.
		
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I agree. I think player for player we can get out of the group and first round. After that we're underdogs in games.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



*Milner and Welbeck in the starting line up?
*
I hope to God you're wrong. That would be unbearable
		
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I'd pick Welbeck, I thought he played very well last night!



Dodger said:



			Are Engerland home yet?

How does Henderson get in the squad? An awful footballer.

*Him and Wellbeck are a waste of 2 plane tickets.*

Click to expand...

Him & Welbeck, according to the BBC website, were England's best two players last night.



*Slime*.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

I wonder if you'd say that if he didn't play for Man U. Mind you he wouldn't be near any international squads if he didn't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I wonder if you'd say that if he didn't play for Man U. Mind you he wouldn't be near any international squads if he didn't.
		
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That is the truth.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

I wish we had an England manager with the conviction to pick a side on ability and not reputation. Never going to happen as the press would muller him if the likes of Rooney etc were dropped say for the Italy game. Too much pressure and too little time make it impossible for England managers to build and mould.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			I wonder if you'd say that if he didn't play for Man U. Mind you he wouldn't be near any international squads if he didn't.
		
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Yes and I didn't realise that you are a seer!



HomerJSimpson said:



*I wish we had an England manager with the conviction to pick a side on ability and not reputation.* Never going to happen as the press would muller him if the likes of Rooney etc were dropped say for the Italy game. Too much pressure and too little time make it impossible for England managers to build and mould.
		
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We've got several of them on this forum!
The trouble is that they are so ridiculously biased whilst being totally unaware of it!

*
Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			Yes and I didn't realise that you are a seer!



We've got several of them on this forum!
*The trouble is that they are so ridiculously biased whilst being totally unaware of it!*

*
Slime*.
		
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Unlike you who I'm guessing is aware of how bias you are ? 

The team I want picked is the one with the players whose form mean they deserve a chance to have a crack at it regardless of what club they play for


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			Yes and I didn't realise that you are a seer!



We've got several of them on this forum!
The trouble is that they are so ridiculously biased whilst being totally unaware of it!

*
Slime*.
		
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I'm not biased. I support newcastle and we don't have any players in the squad. I only want the best players to play and that does not include Welbeck


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

All this talk of dropping players yet Gerrard doesn't get a mention. He wasn't good enough in his prime so he certainly isn't good enough now,especially in the hot climate.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			All this talk of dropping players yet Gerrard doesn't get a mention. He wasn't good enough in his prime so he certainly isn't good enough now,especially in the hot climate.
		
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Hes captain so won't get dropped. But it does make a mockery of everyone calling for youth as the golden generation won nothing. 
Hoepfully henderson will do enough running.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			All this talk of dropping players yet Gerrard doesn't get a mention. He wasn't good enough in his prime so he certainly isn't good enough now,especially in the hot climate.
		
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But had a cracking second half of the season though 

As for wasn't good enough in his prime ?! That's laughable statement - nearly as funny as stating Lampard is the best cm that's been seen in the Prem


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Hes captain so won't get dropped. But it does make a mockery of everyone calling for youth as the golden generation won nothing. 
Hoepfully henderson will do enough running.
		
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His form has earned him his place.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The problem with England is that we put all our hopes on one player, put them up on some pedestal and slag them off when they fail to live up to the hype we created for them.
		
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This happens in every sport in England!

I blame the Press - for 2 reasons.
1. They are searching for headlines and simpler to single out individuals.
2. They seem to believe the public is ignorant (and they are experts) and needs to be spoon-fed information, both of players and tactics!

Other countries have equivalent stereotypical impediments - NZ has the 'tall poppy syndrome' where anyone getting more than a bit ahead gets bashed, so needs be either a real star or to learn persistence; US has the false build-up, where the athlete's ability is over-hyped and the first encounter with real competition can be a shock; also the 'nappy-change' syndrome, where so much is done for the athlete that they never have to learn to think. 

The Aussies seemed to have a pretty good set-up with the Aus Inst of Sport, but there don't seem to be the same number of outstanding athletes coming out of that system as there was before it. Co-incidence or Cause?!  It's certainly possible that the 'standardisation' is an inhibitor to individual excellence - the reason that Judy Murray refused to allow Andy to be coached by the BLTA system (Jamie's major weapon, his unorthodox forehand, got destroyed by 'the system' when he was young and simply obeyed his coaches).


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			His form has earned him his place.
		
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Im not saying it hasn't. But some of the youngsters picked haven't been better than the old heads. Cole/shaw for example. But everyone applauds it. And nobody queries it. Although I'm not sure who we could go for. Wilshere of fit maybe I suppose. 

Tbf im a massive fan of Gerrard. But I do worry that 3 games in quick succession will be hard on him. Hopefully we will be sorted before Costa Rica.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Im not saying it hasn't. But some of the youngsters picked haven't been better than the old heads. Cole/shaw for example. But everyone applauds it. And nobody queries it. Although I'm not sure who we could go for. Wilshere of fit maybe I suppose. 

Tbf im a massive fan of Gerrard. But I do worry that 3 games in quick succession will be hard on him. Hopefully we will be sorted before Costa Rica.
		
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Cole was never going to play because of Baines so better to take a talented youngster 

Wilshire is never fit and hasn't played anywhere near well enough for months 

He won't play the 90 mins every match


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But had a cracking second half of the season though 

As for wasn't good enough in his prime ?! That's laughable statement - nearly as funny as stating Lampard is the best cm that's been seen in the Prem
		
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I meant for country not club. As for Lampard I know you like stats to back up opinions so check out Lampards. Pretty impressive. He's even won 3 PL titles,imagine that :whoo:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But had a cracking second half of the season though 

As for wasn't good enough in his prime ?! That's laughable statement - nearly as funny as stating Lampard is the best cm that's been seen in the Prem
		
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Thing is Lampard is Chelsea's top scorer so definitely the best CM in his sides history and I'd suggest for a couple of years he was in the top three in that position. Not now. Same with Gerrard and although he may have had a decent second half to the season I think he's just over the crest. A long way from finished as a top player but not the best for the CM in the England side anymore.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Unlike you who I'm guessing is aware of how bias you are ? 
*
The team I want picked is the one with the players whose form mean they deserve a chance to have a crack at it regardless of what club they play for
		
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I'm totally aware Phil and have admitted so on the Best Prem XI thread, post #82, I just wish some other were aware of how unbeleivably biased and myopic they are!



richy said:



*I'm not biased. I support newcastle* and we don't have any players in the squad. *I only want the best players to play and that does not include Welbeck*

Click to expand...

So? You can still be biased AGAINST players.
It would appear that Hodgson disagrees with you, I wish someone would tell him .
For what it's worth, I thought Welbeck had a really good game last night ..................... what did you think?

*
Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I meant for country not club. As for Lampard I know you like stats to back up opinions so check out Lampards. Pretty impressive. He's even won 3 PL titles,imagine that :whoo:
		
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For country he has had to sit and not play his natural game to allow Lampard to be able to play his natural game.

Regardless of whatever stats can be produced for Lampard he still wouldn't make him the best CM in the prem


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Thing is Lampard is Chelsea's top scorer so definitely the best CM in his sides history and I'd suggest for a couple of years he was in the top three in that position. Not now. Same with Gerrard and although he may have had a decent second half to the season I think he's just over the crest. A long way from finished as a top player but not the best for the CM in the England side anymore.
		
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Who do you play instead of him then ?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			His form has earned him his place.
		
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No his name earned him his place. Never been good enough to win his domestic league even when playing amongst top players & never performed on the world stage. FACT. If you need evidence I'll be happy to supply it :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Regardless of whatever stats can be produced for Lampard he still wouldn't make him the best CM in the prem
		
Click to expand...

For someone who demands verification for everything I find it strange you deny the stats that prove Lampard is the best CM in the PL's history.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who do you play instead of him then ?
		
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I think that's the point really, also why Johnson still gets a game. I'd rather if we're dumping the oldies we went all in. But I do think we'd struggle for a centre pairing. We have a lot of exiting attacking midfielders. But a real lack of cm atm.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			No his name earned him his place. Never been good enough to win his domestic league even when playing amongst top players & never performed on the world stage. FACT. If you need evidence I'll be happy to supply it :thup:
		
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Gerrard not winning the league doesn't make him any less of a player - what I do know he is clearly a country mile better than Lampard even if Gerrard won zero trophies


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For country he has had to sit and not play his natural game to allow Lampard to be able to play his natural game.

Regardless of whatever stats can be produced for Lampard he still wouldn't make him the best CM in the prem
		
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Sounds like a complete cop out from a Liverpool fan to me.so basically if it wasn't for Lampard,gerrard would have been awesome for England
Always an excuse:rofl:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard not winning the league doesn't make him any less of a player - what I do know he is clearly a country mile better than Lampard even if Gerrard won zero trophies
		
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In your opinion. Stats would argue otherwise. Both great players though


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			For someone who demands verification for everything I find it strange you deny the stats that prove Lampard is the best CM in the PL's history.
		
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I like good old stats, and don't hide behind "stats can be used to show anything". 
BUT, Whilst I think lampard was a very effective midfielder. Playing in cm is about more than just goals. 
Lid say lampard is the greatest ever goal scoring midfielder. 
Id say Gerrard is the best ever cm.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard not winning the league doesn't make him any less of a player - what I do know he is clearly a country mile better than Lampard even if Gerrard won zero trophies
		
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In your opinion. 
And many others including mine. 

But I'd not be so dismissive of lampard. 

His is record stands up against any.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			For someone who demands verification for everything I find it strange you deny the stats that prove Lampard is the best CM in the PL's history.
		
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Which stats prove he is the best CM in prem history then ? 

When everyone was asked to name their best prem 11 how many named Lampard ( believe it was 1 - the Chelsea fan )


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I like good old stats, and don't hide behind "stats can be used to show anything". 
BUT, Whilst I think lampard was a very effective midfielder. Playing in cm is about more than just goals. 
Lid say lampard is the greatest ever goal scoring midfielder. 
Id say Gerrard is the best ever cm.
		
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I disagree and think its the other way around but of course the game is all about opinions and so I accept yours. A shame both Gerrard and Lampard could never be played properly together effectively when they were in their prime. You could argue Robson built the 90 England side around Gazza but with the stability of Platt etc to keep the strength. We should have built a team around their passing and attacking abilities more when they were younger.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard not winning the league doesn't make him any less of a player - what I do know he is clearly a country mile better than Lampard even if Gerrard won zero trophies
		
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But you usually insist on stats & proof
Can you back up your claim?? 
You also discount Ronaldo's credentials because he hasn't  done it at a major comp. but surely Gerrard not winning a domestic title must count against him


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Sounds like a complete cop out from a Liverpool fan to me.so basically if it wasn't for Lampard,gerrard would have been awesome for England
Always an excuse:rofl:
		
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No cop,out at all - Lampard didn't have the ability to sit and protect so when they played one person had to sit whilst the other went forward. Gerrard whilst not his greatest attributes still could sit which allowed Lampard to push forward. You can deny that if you so wish but it's been debated and mentioned time and time again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			But you usually insist on stats & proof
Can you back up your claim?? 
You also discount Ronaldo's credentials because he hasn't  done it at a major comp. but surely Gerrard not winning a domestic title must count against him
		
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If you think Lampard is better then knock yourself out - as with anything it's all about opinions. 

It's a tired old debate now but one person will be sat on the bench next week whilst the other captains his country again :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No cop,out at all - Lampard didn't have the ability to sit and protect so when they played one person had to sit whilst the other went forward. Gerrard whilst not his greatest attributes still could sit which allowed Lampard to push forward. You can deny that if you so wish but it's been debated and mentioned time and time again.
		
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As I said, England should have built a side around both of them and arguably Beckham. We could have had a solid (Platt like) holder in front of the back four and let the creative players create. That time has passed and I hope Hodgson can find a way to get attacking players to play and some backbone in the centre of the park


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

I've never said Lampard was the best Midfielder in the pl,I said he was the best IMO. Obviously you could make a case for Giggs,scholes,..... 
It's all about opinion


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree and think its the other way around but of course the game is all about opinions and so I accept yours. A shame both Gerrard and Lampard could never be played properly together effectively when they were in their prime. You could argue Robson built the 90 England side around Gazza but with the stability of Platt etc to keep the strength. We should have built a team around their passing and attacking abilities more when they were younger.
		
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I agree they should have been utilised better, although I'm pretty sure England's win ratio since they started playing has been better when both start together than just one. So does make it a bit of a myth.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you think Lampard is better then knock yourself out - as with anything it's all about opinions. 

It's a tired old debate now but one person will be sat on the bench next week whilst the other captains his country again :thup:
		
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But gerrard is younger
Phil you really haven't got a clue have you


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			I'm totally aware Phil and have admitted so on the Best Prem XI thread, post #82, I just wish some other were aware of how unbeleivably biased and myopic they are!



So? You can still be biased AGAINST players.
It would appear that Hodgson disagrees with you, I wish someone would tell him .
For what it's worth, I thought Welbeck had a really good game last night ..................... what did you think?

*
Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Ok then I'm biased against awful footballers. I don't see that as a bad thing. 

I can't really remember him doing anything significant to be honest other than the step over to allow Sturridge to get his shot away. 

He's not a winger but he's never gonna get the nod ahead to start up front because his finishing is terrible.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Obviously facts don't matter on this one because it doesn't suit


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Obviously facts don't matter on this one because it doesn't suit 

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Obviously facts don't matter on this one because it doesn't suit 

Click to expand...


What facts are they ? 

Traore has a CL medal - Stuart Pearce doesn't - does that mean Traore was better ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			:thup:
		
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I asked you to produce the facts to back up your statement and your appear to have not produced them yet


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Lampard 29 goals for England.... Gerrard 21 There's an opening stat especially as neither have been regular penalty takers over their England careers


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			Ok then I'm biased against awful footballers. I don't see that as a bad thing. 

*I can't really remember him doing anything significant to be honest other than the step over to allow Sturridge to get his shot away. *

He's not a winger but he's never gonna get the nod ahead to start up front because his finishing is terrible.
		
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Of course you can't ............................. because you don't want to because you think he is crap.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27750205

Oh, and I didn't write that!
Oh, and it was Sturridge that missed the sitter!


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What facts are they ? 

Traore has a CL medal - Stuart Pearce doesn't - does that mean Traore was better ?
		
Click to expand...

Traore,Pearce
Come on Phil this is getting embarrassing now. Just say you believe gerrard is the better player in your opinion & that's fine. 
But obviously the stats say otherwise :thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Traore isn't even English so what does he have to do with a discussion about the England team?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Traore isn't even English so what does he have to do with a discussion about the England team?
		
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Because the rules change for LP, silly


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lampard 29 goals for England.... Gerrard 21 There's an opening stat especially as neither have been regular penalty takers over their England careers
		
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So scoring more goals make someone a better midfielder ? 

What about all the other aspects of playing CM ? What about stuff that can't be put into stats ?


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			Of course you can't ............................. because you don't want to because you think he is crap.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27750205

Oh, and I didn't write that!
Oh, and it was Sturridge that missed the sitter!

O
*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

End of the day there's 4 attacking places up for grabs and let's be honest Welbeck isn't good enough to get one of those places. Is he better than Sturridge, no. Is he better than Rooney, no. Is he better than llalana, no. Is he better than Sterling, no. 

I wish he had more quality because it would only be good for the team. My opinion of him doens t have an alterior motive I just think there's lots more players better suited for the role he's trying to get.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Traore isn't even English so what does he have to do with a discussion about the England team?
		
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It's highlighting that just because someone wins more medals than someone else doesn't automatically mean they are better.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Traore,Pearce
Come on Phil this is getting embarrassing now. Just say you believe gerrard is the better player in your opinion & that's fine. 
But obviously the stats say otherwise :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Have already said that :thup:

So these stats ? 

What do you reckon someone like Bryan Robson thinks ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have already said that :thup:

So these stats ? 

What do you reckon someone like Bryan Robson thinks ?
		
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I would suggest Robson thinks he is better than Gerrard. More goals which is what counts. It's all about what happens with the ball. To use your argument, Robson and Gerrard were both used as holding midfield players to let others around them go forward. Robson still proved more effective


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I would suggest Robson thinks he is better than Gerrard. More goals which is what counts. It's all about what happens with the ball. To use your argument, Robson and Gerrard were both used as holding midfield players to let others around them go forward. Robson still proved more effective
		
Click to expand...

Im loathe to agree with Phil lol. 

But goals aren't everything op unless comparing two players that play exact same postions. 

I mean eat who's the better cm, Makelele or Cleverley?


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			End of the day there's 4 attacking places up for grabs and let's be honest Welbeck isn't good enough to get one of those places. *Is he better than Sturridge, no. Is he better than Rooney, no. Is he better than llalana, no. Is he better than Sterling, no. *

I wish he had more quality because it would only be good for the team. My opinion of him doens t have an alterior motive I just think there's lots more players better suited for the role he's trying to get.
		
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In your opinion. 
For me it's no, no, yes and yes.
I guess we'll find out soon enough what Hodgson thinks, although he does have the advantage of seeing them in training.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Have already said that :thup:

So these stats ? 

*What do you reckon someone like Bryan Robson thinks ?*

Click to expand...

*??????????*
Where the hell did that come from? I really never saw that one coming!


*Slime*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			But goals aren't everything op unless comparing two players that play exact same postions. 

I mean eat who's the better cm, Makelele or Cleverley?
		
Click to expand...

Robson and Gerrard did play the same role. Again why throw in non English players into a debate about the English team. If you want to open the thread out into world class midfielders then I would argue that with the exception of Gazza in terms of out and out skill, and Beckham for delivery, we haven't produced too many to compare with the likes of Germany, Spain, France, Argentina to name four over the last twenty yars


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			In your opinion. 
For me it's no, no, yes and yes.
I guess we'll find out soon enough what Hodgson thinks, although he does have the advantage of seeing them in training.



*??????????*
Where the hell did that come from? I really never saw that one coming!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

i hinestly believe that welbeck warrants a place on the plane (as Rodrigues got injured). Does he deserve a place on the pitch? Depends what Hodgson wants. If he wants a workhorse who will do well defensively. If it's for offence, then he certainly isn't better than the four mentioned. Or Barkley for that matter. 

A striker who scores 1 goal in a season albeit two years ago isn't someone to pin your hopes on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I would suggest Robson thinks he is better than Gerrard. More goals which is what counts. It's all about what happens with the ball. To use your argument, Robson and Gerrard were both used as holding midfield players to let others around them go forward. Robson still proved more effective
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but the job of a CM is more than just scoring a goal 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...errard-better-Frank-Lampard-Paul-Scholes.html

That's what Robson says - in there he highlights all the key areas of a CM - something stats can't and never will show.


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## richart (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So scoring more goals make someone a better midfielder ? 

What about all the other aspects of playing CM ? What about stuff that can't be put into stats ?
		
Click to expand...

 Seem to remember that Makelele was a useful midfield player, and not sure he scored too many. You can not just judge midfield player by his goals. Some are attacking, some defensive, some play wide, but to me the best are ones that can get forward, score goals, but also have an engine to get back defensively, can tackle, and actually help out in defence and not be a liability. Gerrard is the best I have seen for England in the last ten years. Roy Keane the best I have seen in the last 20 years in the Premiership.

On the question of Welbeck, he looks great when he does something instinctively, but give him time to think and he becomes a headless chicken. He beat two men with a nice change of pace, and then instead of getting his head up to look for a pass, tries to outrun a defender who is standing five yards off him. To many England players can not play a final ball.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			In your opinion. 
For me it's no, no, yes and yes.
I guess we'll find out soon enough what Hodgson thinks, although he does have the advantage of seeing them in training.



*??????????*
Where the hell did that come from? I really never saw that one coming!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

So Danny Welbeck is currently a better quality footballer than llalana and sterling. Your judgement really is clouded by the loyalty to your team isn't it?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Robson and Gerrard did play the same role. Again why throw in non English players into a debate about the English team. If you want to open the thread out into world class midfielders then I would argue that with the exception of Gazza in terms of out and out skill, and Beckham for delivery, we haven't produced too many to compare with the likes of Germany, Spain, France, Argentina to name four over the last twenty yars
		
Click to expand...

i was pointing out that Gerrard and lampard played different roles. And therefor goals weren't necessarily how they should be compared. As we're talking about the current team. 

I used Makelele as England haven't has a ball winner of any note to use as an example. When comparing midfielders of different sorts. 

Im not gonna go over my thoughts on gazza again, but I agree. We haven't had anywhere near as many truly world class players as our counter parts. Although I believe both scholes and Gerrard make the list.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but the job of a CM is more than just scoring a goal 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...errard-better-Frank-Lampard-Paul-Scholes.html

That's what Robson says - in there he highlights all the key areas of a CM - something stats can't and never will show.
		
Click to expand...

Not gonna say he's right or wrong as it's his opinion, and only an opinion. But I'm not surprised as Gerrard is a Roy of the rovers like he was. 

In today's game, I know who'd fit better in the current world champions team though. 

Hint, its neother of our current players.


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## richart (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Robson and Gerrard did play the same role. Again why throw in non English players into a debate about the English team. If you want to open the thread out into world class midfielders then I would argue that with the exception of Gazza in terms of out and out skill, and Beckham for delivery, we haven't produced too many to compare with the likes of Germany, Spain, France, Argentina to name four over the last twenty yars
		
Click to expand...

Scholes ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2014)

If its in the Daily Mail it must be right then

Welbeck doesn't look the completed player in an England shirt. Will that change with age and experience? Maybe. My argument was LP put Gerrard and Lampard forward as CM's in the same role and England manager's wanted both to play attacking roles but couldn't accommodate both. I think that point has been debated and proven many times in the press over the years. I simply put forward that when doing the same role Lampard has been better than Gerrard. However, I accept that Gerrard has been a fantastic servant for England but I do think, despite being Captain that this will be his last hurrah and that *in my opinion* he is now getting to that point where he may be at the end of the career with surely youth being given its head before the next EC's


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If its in the Daily Mail it must be right then

Welbeck doesn't look the completed player in an England shirt. Will that change with age and experience? Maybe. My argument was LP put Gerrard and Lampard forward as CM's in the same role and England manager's wanted both to play attacking roles but couldn't accommodate both. I think that point has been debated and proven many times in the press over the years. I simply put forward that when doing the same role Lampard has been better than Gerrard. However, I accept that Gerrard has been a fantastic servant for England but I do think, despite being Captain that this will be his last hurrah and that *in my opinion* he is now getting to that point where he may be at the end of the career with surely youth being given its head before the next EC's
		
Click to expand...

I definatley agree this will be his last. He's already spoken about it himself. And with England have an easy (even for us) euro qualifying group I think we can cope. Plus as Liverpool appear to have a realistic shot at the title again he will want to go for that and Brendan has already commented on him having a decision to make.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			So Danny Welbeck is currently a better quality footballer than llalana and sterling. Your judgement really is clouded by the loyalty to your team isn't it?
		
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In my opinion, yes. 
Oh, and yes.
But let's see who Hodgson picks, I think his judgement is slightly better than our ....................... or maybe he's a Man Utd supporter .


*Slime*.


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## richart (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If its in the Daily Mail it must be right then

Welbeck doesn't look the completed player in an England shirt. Will that change with age and experience? Maybe. My argument was LP put Gerrard and Lampard forward as CM's in the same role and England manager's wanted both to play attacking roles but couldn't accommodate both. I think that point has been debated and proven many times in the press over the years. I simply put forward that when doing the same role Lampard has been better than Gerrard. However, I accept that Gerrard has been a fantastic servant for England but I do think, despite being Captain that this will be his last hurrah and that *in my opinion* he is now getting to that point where he may be at the end of the career with surely youth being given its head before the next EC's
		
Click to expand...

When you look at the current crop of midfielders, they do seem to be better going forward than defensively. Hopefully Henderson will prove to be the defensive midfielder we have been looking for, and the likes of Barkley, Lallana, Wilshere can get the chance. 

Barkley reminds me of Roy Keane when he first started playing for Forest. He was great going forward, scored some spectacular goals, but it took his move to Utd before he became an all round central midfield player that could boss a game. Players at 20 just don't do that, but hopefully in a few years .....


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			In my opinion, yes. 
Oh, and yes.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

In that case I no longer think you are able to continue to have a sensible discussion on this matter


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## G1BB0 (Jun 8, 2014)

Italy will beat us, Uruguay will beat us and costa rica will earn a draw.... Roy will blame the heat and something else but when it comes down to it we just wont be good enough!

Watching the last 2 games I saw zero positives. We should be winning both games confortably regardless of starting 11.

5/4 not to qualify from the group... even the bookies dont fancy us lol


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I definatley agree this will be his last. He's already spoken about it himself. And with England have an easy (even for us) euro qualifying group I think we can cope. Plus *as Liverpool appear to have a realistic shot at the title* again he will want to go for that and Brendan has already commented on him having a decision to make.
		
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:rofl: Seriously?  :rofl:


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			:rofl: Seriously?  :rofl:


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

In comparison to a lot of years recently when they've said "this is our year" yes. 

They em were second this year, if Rogers learns she. To stick then I think so. 
Theyve added a quality striker, appear to have mere can tied up and with lallana also I think a fully fit Liverpool squad has a chance. 

Obviously city and Chelsea are favourites. But Liverpool have comfortably the best team after them.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			Italy will beat us, Uruguay will beat us and costa rica will earn a draw.... Roy will blame the heat and something else but when it comes down to it we just wont be good enough!

Watching the last 2 games I saw zero positives. We should be winning both games confortably regardless of starting 11.

5/4 not to qualify from the group... even the bookies dont fancy us lol
		
Click to expand...

Since September when they beat the Czechs. Italy have played Denmark, Armenia, Germany, Nigeria, Spain, Republic of Ireland and Luxembourg. All without a victory. I'm not running scared of them at all.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

richy said:



			In that case I no longer think you are able to continue to have a sensible discussion on this matter
		
Click to expand...

And what's your excuse?


*Slime*.


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			In comparison to a lot of years recently when they've said "this is our year" yes. 

They em were second this year, if Rogers learns she. To stick then I think so. 
Theyve added a quality striker, appear to have mere can tied up and with lallana also I think a fully fit Liverpool squad has a chance. 

Obviously city and Chelsea are favourites. But Liverpool have comfortably the best team after them.
		
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I'm sorry, but could you write that in better English!


*Slime*.


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## richy (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			And what's your excuse?


*Slime*.
		
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You said it yourself, you're biased towards Man U players rather than picking players on quality and form. If you weren't so blinded by club loyalty then the discussion could've continued.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			I'm sorry, but could you write that in better English!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

In comparison to a lot of years recently when they've said "this is our year",yes. 


They were second this year, if Rogers learns when To stick then I think so. 
Theyve added a quality striker, appear to have emre can tied up and with lallana also, I think a fully fit Liverpool squad has a chance. 


Obviously city and Chelsea are favourites. But Liverpool have comfortably the best team after them.

hope that clears it up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

richart said:



			Seem to remember that Makelele was a useful midfield player, and not sure he scored too many. You can not just judge midfield player by his goals. Some are attacking, some defensive, some play wide, but to me the best are ones that can get forward, score goals, but also have an engine to get back defensively, can tackle, and actually help out in defence and not be a liability. Gerrard is the best I have seen for England in the last ten years. Roy Keane the best I have seen in the last 20 years in the Premiership.

On the question of Welbeck, he looks great when he does something instinctively, but give him time to think and he becomes a headless chicken. He beat two men with a nice change of pace, and then instead of getting his head up to look for a pass, tries to outrun a defender who is standing five yards off him. To many England players can not play a final ball.
		
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Exactly Rich. - there is so many elements to a CM role that can't be measured in stats


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If its in the Daily Mail it must be right then

Welbeck doesn't look the completed player in an England shirt. Will that change with age and experience? Maybe. My argument was LP put Gerrard and Lampard forward as CM's in the same role and England manager's wanted both to play attacking roles but couldn't accommodate both. I think that point has been debated and proven many times in the press over the years. I simply put forward that when doing the same role Lampard has been better than Gerrard. However, I accept that Gerrard has been a fantastic servant for England but I do think, despite being Captain that this will be his last hurrah and that *in my opinion* he is now getting to that point where he may be at the end of the career with surely youth being given its head before the next EC's
		
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What paper it's written in is irrelevant - it's the words he is using 

Lampard and Gerrard didn't play the same role for England - one was more attacking than the other - Lampard so he did get into more goalscoring areas whilst Gerrard sat deeper. Because Gerrard had the ability to do both - so even though Gerrard sat deeper he still got a good return of goals - but it's just one aspect. 

It's why when Gerrard and Scholes played together they fitted so well - the Germany 5-1 was a perfect example.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2014)

Slime said:



			In my opinion, yes. 
Oh, and yes.
But let's see who Hodgson picks, I think his judgement is slightly better than our ....................... or maybe he's a Man Utd supporter .


*Slime*.
		
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You must be joking if you think Welbeck is better than Sterling and Lallana - :rofl:

And Woy picking him isn't proof that he is.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Exactly Rich. - there is so many elements to a CM role that can't be measured in stats
		
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But surely winning a league title is a pretty big stat :thup:


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			But surely winning a league title is a pretty big stat :thup:
		
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Has about the same merit as it does rating 'keepers!

Would you consider, say, Liverpool's back 4 (or 5) better that Chelsea's because they finished higher?


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			But surely winning a league title is a pretty big stat :thup:
		
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I guess that makes Alan Shearer one of the worst strikers in the country... Teams, or squads, win titles.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I guess that makes Alan Shearer one of the worst strikers in the country... Teams, or squads, win titles.
		
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Shearer won title with Blackburn


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Shearer won title with Blackburn
		
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 And then joined Newcastle and won nowt.


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## richy (Jun 9, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			And then joined Newcastle and won nowt.
		
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Thanks for reminding me Brian

Although he was one of the best if not the best striker in he league for a number of seasons with us


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Teams, or squads, win titles.
		
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And individuals get picked for the National team. 

And it may not be the 'best' individual either as it's still down to the Manager to select the best player that fits the way he wants the team to play.

The Shearer analogy was pretty much perfect btw. Having ticked that particular (League Title) box, no-one was in any doubt where Shearer wanted to play the rest of his Football!  

I fundamentally disagree with Robson's attitude to the Gerrard/Lampard 'challenge'. I believe that while you can steer/mould a player towards a particular role (and some with true 'vision' can see a completely different role too) it's very difficult - especially at National level - to prevent a player from playing their 'natural' role. And Gerrrard and Lampard had so much of an overlap in that that they were always destined to occasionally 'get in each others way' and leave a gap elsewhere. My solution would be to play one for 60-65 minutes and then sub for the other. Both really good-great players, but I would rate Gerrard slightly higher - for no particularly analysed reason though! A whole season's familiarity with Henderson should help both of them too!


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## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Shearer won title with Blackburn
		
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So did Chris Sutton :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			So did Chris Sutton :rofl:
		
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Actually saw Sutton in one of his early games for Celtic and he was pretty much the star player that evening (certainly better than the thug he looked at Chelsea) - though Latapy was quite impressive and the crowd was amusing jeering Agathe who had come in to Hibs and transferred out to Celtic in a matter of weeks/days! For anyone else who attended, the whining noise was my Gran spinning in her grave! The game was pretty dire though - a scoreless draw. Highlight of the night was when Latapy looked like he might have a chance getting the ball at halfway with Celtics fullbacks up on attack, so only the Goalie to beat. But, to much uproar, his little legs couldn't go fast enough and they easily caught him!


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2014)

What's everyones projected lineup for Saturday? 

                   Hart
Johnson-Jagielka-Cahill-Baines
      Gerrard-Henderson
Milner - Rooney - Welbeck
          Sturridge


Thats what I think it will be, relatively happy with it. But would prefer Lallana instead of Welbeck on the left.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

DanFST said:



			What's everyones projected lineup for Saturday? 

                   Hart
Johnson-Jagielka-Cahill-Baines
      Gerrard-Henderson
Milner - Rooney - Welbeck
          Sturridge


Thats what I think it will be, relatively happy with it. But would prefer Lallana instead of Welbeck on the left.
		
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Think Lallana will start he's creative but probably seen by Roy as slightly more disciplined than alternatives, and it'll be Milner or Welbeck.


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## Beezerk (Jun 9, 2014)

Lallana has to start IMO, he's impressed a lot in all the games he's played for England.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

does anyone other than Roy rate Welbeck? i think he is utterly useless. 

My personal opinion is that, like the ITV commentators, Roy cant tell him and sturridge apart, so he picks them both, just in case.

Barkley, Lallana, Sterling, Milner should all get the nod above welbeck.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			does anyone other than Roy rate Welbeck? i think he is utterly useless. 

My personal opinion is that, like the ITV commentators, Roy cant tell him and sturridge apart, so he picks them both, just in case.

Barkley, Lallana, Sterling, Milner should all get the nod above welbeck.
		
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is rather neither Welbeck or Milner were near the team. 

Welbeck seems to do ok for England though so rather him than Milner. 

Welbeck is only in squad due to injuries. He'll probably start, but if subs impress then he may miss out against Uruguay.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



*does anyone other than Roy rate Welbeck?* i think he is utterly useless. 

My personal opinion is that, like the ITV commentators, Roy cant tell him and sturridge apart, so he picks them both, just in case.

Barkley, Lallana, Sterling, Milner should all get the nod above welbeck.
		
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Me and Sir Alex Ferguson.


*Slime*.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Me and Sir Alex Ferguson.


*Slime*.
		
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ok so thats 3 people...


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## richy (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Me and Sir Alex Ferguson.


*Slime*.
		
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Yeah and Fergie's never been wrong about a player before


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Me and Sir Alex Ferguson.


*Slime*.
		
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He also chose Moyes. Everyone makes mistakes lol

fwiw I'm not sure who else is ahead if Welbeck for squad selection. But for starting line up I'd rather a handful of players.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 9, 2014)

My tuppence worth...

I think Gerrard is better than Lampard. I'm not going to try to justify it, it's just my opinion.
Wellbeck has always looked a bit like Bambi on ice to me, however, I thought he looked better in the last game. I still wouldn't start him though.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

richy said:



			Yeah and Fergie's never been wrong about a player before
		
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Yes he has, he bought Djemba Djemba, duh! 

And what about you? You ever been wrong before, I mean, ever?


*Slime*.


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## richy (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Yes he has, he bought Djemba Djemba, duh! 

And what about you? You ever been wrong before, I mean, ever?


*Slime*.
		
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Hundreds of times and that's my point. Just because fergie 'rates' him doesn't mean he is quality. 

I hope he proves me and everyone on here who said he shouldn't start wrong.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Here's a quote from a Scottish newspaper over the weekend. (And obviously we're not going to be there so are just jealous etc etc)

_"When England qualified for the World Cup, there was a national acceptance of the fact they werenâ€™t good enough to win it.

But the closer they get, the less they seem able to process this fact. Theyâ€™re still cutting their team to the bone with their expectations. They have to be the most unrealistic realists on the planet."_


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Here's a quote from a Scottish newspaper over the weekend. (And obviously we're not going to be there so are just jealous etc etc)

_"When England qualified for the World Cup, there was a national acceptance of the fact they werenâ€™t good enough to win it.

But the closer they get, the less they seem able to process this fact. Theyâ€™re still cutting their team to the bone with their expectations. They have to be the most unrealistic realists on the planet."_

Click to expand...

to to be fair, from what I've read on here and heard down the pub. I've not heard fans being unrealistic at all. Criticising welbeck, Milner and Johnson isn't having delusions of grandeur. We do have better options but injuries have meant they can't be selected.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Me and Sir Alex Ferguson.


*Slime*.
		
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Would you rate him if he wasn't playing for Mancs ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Here's a quote from a Scottish newspaper over the weekend. (And obviously we're not going to be there so are just jealous etc etc)

_"When England qualified for the World Cup, there was a national acceptance of the fact they werenâ€™t good enough to win it.

But the closer they get, the less they seem able to process this fact. Theyâ€™re still cutting their team to the bone with their expectations. They have to be the most unrealistic realists on the planet."_

Click to expand...

I'm not sure this is actually the case this time round. I don't know anyone who thinks we will get past the 2nd round. Most are doubtful we'll get through the group.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I'm not sure this is actually the case this time round. I don't know anyone who thinks we will get past the 2nd round. Most are doubtful we'll get through the group.
		
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I think you're probably right but there's certainly a lot of debate about which particular group of losers Roy should play and Rooney, for example, who is arguably your best player is getting torn to shreds on here.

Meantime I expect the usual wailing, gnashing of teeth and recriminations when you do get knocked out. Look on the bright side, at least you can't get knocked out on penalties at the group stage!


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

If Roy goes with Welbeck and Milner we are doomed. Doomed I tell you.


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## chrisd (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think you're probably right but there's certainly a lot of debate about which particular group of losers Roy should play and Rooney, for example, who is arguably your best player is getting torn to shreds on here.

Meantime I expect the usual wailing, gnashing of teeth and recriminations when you do get knocked out. Look on the bright side, at least you can't get knocked out on penalties at the group stage! 

Click to expand...

................. but at least we can get knocked out!


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

chrisd said:



			................. but at least we can get knocked out! 

Click to expand...

Indeed, as I stated on my earlier post, do I need to acknowledge it every time I post on the thread?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I think you're probably right but there's certainly a lot of debate about which particular group of losers Roy should play and Rooney, for example, who is arguably your best player is getting torn to shreds on here.

Meantime I expect the usual wailing, gnashing of teeth and recriminations when you do get knocked out. Look on the bright side, at least you can't get knocked out on penalties at the group stage! 

Click to expand...

Rooney is being built up as the scapegoat already. You can pretty much write the headlines now.

The sooner we accept that we are an average team that might get to the quarter finals but is much more likely to be out before that the better it will be for all of us.

A very small part of me still hopes that a dramatic shift in the time\space continuum will mean England all of a sudden turn into a team to be feared but the rest of me knows that won't happen. We have average players and an average team, but that ain't gonna cut it.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			A very small part of me still hopes that a dramatic shift in the time\space continuum will mean England all of a sudden turn into a team to be feared but the rest of me knows that won't happen. We have average players and an average team, but that ain't gonna cut it.
		
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It's a knockout cup competiton so nothing is impossible. Think Greece, think Denmark.... ha, even Aberdeen won a cup last season!


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's a knockout cup competiton so nothing is impossible. Think Greece, think Denmark.... ha, even Aberdeen won a cup last season!
		
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 Worrying stat for any European team. None has ever won a World Cup in South America. Get your money on Brazil or Argentina.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 9, 2014)

Misleading stat...


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Misleading stat, as its over 50 years since a South American  Country has hosted a world cup finals.....
		
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A valid point in principle, although a bit arithmetically inaccurate!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

richart said:



			Worrying stat for any European team. None has ever won a World Cup in South America. Get your money on Brazil or Argentina.
		
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Werent brazil in 94 the first to win out of their continent? Amd it's not been hosted in South America since for it to change.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 9, 2014)

I was going to edit to add its over 50 years since England played a world cup in South America. 

But I am trying to work at the same time


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Misleading stat...
		
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 Which European country has won in South America then ?


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would you rate him if he wasn't playing for Mancs ?
		
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It's always difficult to answer a hypothetical question, but yes, I would still rate him.



HawkeyeMS said:



			Rooney is being built up as the scapegoat already. You can pretty much write the headlines now.

*The sooner we accept that we are an average team that might get to the quarter finals but is much more likely to be out before that the better it will be for all of us.
*
A very small part of me still hopes that a dramatic shift in the time\space continuum will mean England all of a sudden turn into a team to be feared but the rest of me knows that won't happen. We have average players and an average team, but that ain't gonna cut it.
		
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But surely no-one thinks we're anything but an ordinary team ......................... do they?
I think we'll qualify from the group stage, but if we go any further that would be a bonus.
Nothing wrong with a bit of hope though, even if it is slightly misguided.


*Slime*.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Something I've noticed recently is the distinct lack of England flags attatched to cars.
Is it because people don't care or is it because the tournament hasn't officially started yet?
I've got flags out of my rear windows but have seen none others at all, whereas I seem to remember thousands of them during the Euro's two years ago and also in the lead up too!


*Slime*.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Something I've noticed recently is the distinct lack of England flags attatched to cars.
Is it because people don't care or is it because the tournament hasn't officially started yet?
I've got flags out of my rear windows but have seen none others at all, whereas I seem to remember thousands of them during the Euro's two years ago and also in the lead up too!


*Slime*.
		
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I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Something I've noticed recently is the distinct lack of England flags attatched to cars.
Is it because people don't care or is it because the tournament hasn't officially started yet?
I've got flags out of my rear windows but have seen none others at all, whereas I seem to remember thousands of them during the Euro's two years ago and also in the lead up too!


*Slime*.
		
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Without wanting this going into a whole different subject, and I can only speculate. But I know of two pubs in Southampton that have been given the impression that they shouldn't be flying flags except on England days. Almost like the Xmas light rulings in soton.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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Why?


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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Can I ask why?


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Without wanting this going into a whole different subject, and I can only speculate. But I know of two pubs in Southampton that have been given the impression that they shouldn't be flying flags except on England days. Almost like the Xmas light rulings in soton.
		
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Are you saying that they're not allowed to fly an England flag in England.
If not, why not? I'm a bit confused.
Oh, and what's the deal with Xmas lights?


*Slime*.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Why?


*Slime*.
		
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Because i read the daily mail. (I actually dont, but hey!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388597/England-flags-patriotic-plain-chav.html


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## richy (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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I bet that made them change their mind


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Are you saying that they're not allowed to fly an England flag in England.
If not, why not? I'm a bit confused.
Oh, and what's the deal with Xmas lights?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

in Southampton the main shopping complex used to be plastered with Xmas lights. It stopped a few years ago due to funding not being allowed to be spent on things that could offend (religions other than Christian I suppose). 

A lot of pubs and bars refuse entry to people wearing England polo shirts as to not cause offence also. Even though the bars are showing the England game on big tvs. 

I presume it's for a similar reason, will be interesting to see if other bars in certain areas are allowed to show support for the nationalities that reside in certain suburbs.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

richy said:



			I bet that made them change their mind
		
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yeh probably.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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But you'll no doubt wear an England shirt?
And there's nothing wrong with that either.


*Slime*.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			But you'll no doubt wear an England shirt?
And there's nothing wrong with that either.


*Slime*.
		
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A classic 80's one is perfectly acceptable IMHO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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Fully agree - very tacky !


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			A classic 80's one is perfectly acceptable IMHO.
		
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So people born pre 1980 will need to buy a retro one to be acceptable to you?
does shiva have two profiles?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			It's always difficult to answer a hypothetical question, but yes, I would still rate him.



But surely no-one thinks we're anything but an ordinary team ......................... do they?
I think we'll qualify from the group stage, but if we go any further that would be a bonus.
Nothing wrong with a bit of hope though, even if it is slightly misguided.


*Slime*.
		
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Can you tell me what he has that makes you rate him better than both Sterling and Lallana ?


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I said on twitter earlier, any people i follow that have these, they will get unfollowed.
		
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Quick..anyone know where I can get some.....?:whoo:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			A classic 80's one is perfectly acceptable IMHO.
		
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Still have my old WC 1990 shirt !


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Quick..anyone know where I can get some.....?:whoo:
		
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available from all good Â£1 stores my friend.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still have my old WC 1990 shirt !
		
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Rooter likes this.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you tell me what he has that makes you rate him better than both Sterling and Lallana ?
		
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Yes I can.
I think he has more pace and incredible acceleration, he has a fantastic work ethic, he has international experience and he has vast experience playing with Rooney.
I would say that Lallana would be a better option through the middle, but not out wide, and thet's where Welbeck will be playing ........................ if selected.


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still have my old WC 1990 shirt !
		
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Managed to get one a few years back, don't remember the wc, but always liked the shirt. 90 and 96 to of my favourites. Refuse to part with Â£90 for one this year.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still have my old WC 1990 shirt !
		
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Why? Did you support England back then?


*Slime*.


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			So people born pre 1980 will need to buy a retro one to be acceptable to you?
does shiva have two profiles?
		
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people born POST 1980 are most likely young hoodlums, probably listening to that rap music. Their Hooded tops will cover whatever they are wearing, so their choice of vintage football top is irrelevant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Yes I can.
I think he has more pace and incredible acceleration, he has a fantastic work ethic, he has international experience and he has vast experience playing with Rooney.
I would say that Lallana would be a better option through the middle, but not out wide, and thet's where Welbeck will be playing ........................ if selected.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...


You really think Welbeck has better pace and acceleration than Sterling ?! Really !

And Sterling and Lallana have great work ethic also - Sterling is non stop ? What about creativity ? Skill ? Ability to create something out of nothing and ghost past players ! 

Welbeck reminds me of Carlton Palmer but up front


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			people born POST 1980 are most likely young hoodlums, probably listening to that rap music. Their Hooded tops will cover whatever they are wearing, so their choice of vintage football top is irrelevant.
		
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Lol, ok. 

Seen plenty of 30 years olds in hoodies listening to rap have you?
Maybe post 1990.

and people say golfers are stuffy?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Slime said:



			Why? Did you support England back then?


*Slime*.
		
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I did yes


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

richart said:



			Worrying stat for any European team. None has ever won a World Cup in South America. Get your money on Brazil or Argentina.
		
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I'd back the winner of the game between those 2 to win it - quite possibly even if it was being held elsewhere!


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## Rooter (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Lol, ok. 

Seen plenty of 30 years olds in hoodies listening to rap have you?
Maybe post 1990.

and people say golfers are stuffy?
		
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yeh, bloomin kids. (i was born in 79)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Argentina or Brazil for winners with Uruguay and Spain outsiders


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rooter said:



			yeh, bloomin kids. (i was born in 79)
		
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and there was me thinking your were one of thatchers millions lol. 

I dont feel so young now (89). 

Ill make sure I have m beats down low when intimidating grannies at the coop. &#128515;


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You really think Welbeck has better pace and acceleration than Sterling ?! Really !

And Sterling and Lallana have great work ethic also - Sterling is non stop ? What about creativity ? Skill ? Ability to create something out of nothing and ghost past players ! 

Welbeck reminds me of Carlton Palmer but up front
		
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 Sorry there can only ever be one Carlton Palmer. Well I hope so. They  both do/did a great headless chicken impersonation. I was watching some of the charity match last night, and someone said that one of the differences between Pros and amateurs, is that Pros look up, and don't need to watch the ball all the time when running with it. They know where it is. Could someone tell Welbeck please,.


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			A valid point in principle, although a bit arithmetically inaccurate!
		
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A bit more than 'a bit'!!! 1978 Argentina!



Jack_bfc said:



			I was going to edit to add its over 50 years since England played a world cup in South America. 

Click to expand...

Ah! that explains it.

Do World Cups that England doesn't play in not count!  :rofl: 



Papas1982 said:



			Werent brazil in 94 the first to win out of their continent? Amd it's not been hosted in South America since for it to change.
		
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Mexico '86?

Is there some sort of UK blanking about anything to do with Argentina?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			A bit more than 'a bit'!!! 1978 Argentina!



Ah! that explains it.

Do World Cups that England doesn't play in not count!  :rofl: 



Mexico '86?

Is there some sort of UK blanking about anything to do with Argentina?
		
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in my defence I was only regurgitating something I'd once read. As anything pre Italian 90 is way before my time. 

Having done my homework, Brazil winning in Sweden in 58 makes a mockery of my initial thoughts. Let alone Argentina lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Basically I believe it's no European team has won away from Europe ? Until Spain won in SA


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Basically I believe it's no European team has won away from Europe ? Until Spain won in SA
		
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Yeah that's true, but I read about if during 2002 so not sure what that was all about lol. 

Having watched to confederations cup, I'd be surprised if a European won it.


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## chrisd (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			in my defence I was only regurgitating something I'd once read. As anything pre Italian 90 is way before my time. 

Having done my homework, Brazil winning in Sweden in 58 makes a mockery of my initial thoughts. Let alone Argentina lol
		
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You young whippersnappers ........... !! I remember watching the '66 final in good old black and white


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

chrisd said:



			You young whippersnappers ........... !! I remember watching the '66 final in good old black and white
		
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I'e vey seen it in black and white too! How did you guys cope? Non hd is bad enough lol


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I'e vey seen it in black and white too! How did you guys cope? Non hd is bad enough lol
		
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Never mind the black and white telly..... where was the goal line technology when we needed it!!!?


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## IainP (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Quote Originally Posted by Papas1982  
Werent brazil in 94 the first to win out of their continent? Amd it's not been hosted in South America since for it to change.


Mexico '86?
		
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Don't believe Mexico is in _South_ America


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2014)

IainP said:



			Don't believe Mexico is in _South_ America
		
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Mexico is in the continent of North America ............................ boooooooooooooooom.


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

IainP said:



			Don't believe Mexico is in _South_ America
		
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I belive he had answered 3 questions there and was suggesting that in 86 Mexico hosted a wc and Argentina won. Proving that teams had won out if their continent. Don't believe he was including Mexico as a South American country.

having re re read his post, it's clear that's what he meant as he refers to us forgetting anything to do with Argentina.


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Having watched to confederations cup, I'd be surprised if a European won it.
		
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While I agree with the sentiment, it's a whole different ball game  when 2 different styles are involved. Brazil particularly has a 'tradition' of playing too loosely at the back allowing the European mini-bus style to thwart them. The classic (though again England wasn't there, but New Zealand, and Nothern Ireland were ) was in Spain in '82 when their phenomenal attack (Socrates, Zico, Falcao et al) lost to a Rossi hat-trick!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with the sentiment, it's a whole different ball game  when 2 different styles are involved. Brazil particularly has a 'tradition' of playing too loosely at the back allowing the European mini-bus style to thwart them. The classic (though again England wasn't there, but New Zealand, and Nothern Ireland were ) was in Spain in '82 when their phenomenal attack (Socrates, Zico, Falcao et al) lost to a Rossi hat-trick!
		
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England were at 82 

Robson scored against France after about 20 secs and they got knocked out in the second group stage on goal difference


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with the sentiment, it's a whole different ball game  when 2 different styles are involved. Brazil particularly has a 'tradition' of playing too loosely at the back allowing the European mini-bus style to thwart them. The classic (though again England wasn't there, but New Zealand, and Nothern Ireland were ) was in Spain in '82 when their phenomenal attack (Socrates, Zico, Falcao et al) lost to a Rossi hat-trick!
		
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Europeans played in the confederations cup. Spain looked destroyed by the heat last year. Are you confusing it with copa America?

also, Brazils style under scolari is a lot more European. Win first, style later.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with the sentiment, it's a whole different ball game  when 2 different styles are involved. Brazil particularly has a 'tradition' of playing too loosely at the back allowing the European mini-bus style to thwart them. The classic (though again England wasn't there, but New Zealand, and Nothern Ireland were ) was in Spain in '82 when their phenomenal attack (*Socrates, Zico, Falcao et al*) lost to a Rossi hat-trick!
		
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Possibly the best team at a world cup that didn't actually win it! (Although Ron Conker might disagree, with some justification, given the Netherlands '74 and '78 teams)


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

IainP said:



			Don't believe Mexico is in _South_ America
		
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Slime said:



			Mexico is in the continent of North America ............................ boooooooooooooooom.
		
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Check the 'back-reference' and you'll see the statements were in reply to 2 separate posts!

Thanks Papas


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Brazils team in 86 were nearly as good but lost to a great French team in the quarters on pens !! That was a great match


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## chrisd (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I'e vey seen it in black and white too! How did you guys cope? Non hd is bad enough lol
		
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We suffered for the youth that followed, with very little thanks!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

chrisd said:



			We suffered for the youth that followed, with very little thanks!
		
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well you brave men (and women) have my eternal gratitude!


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Europeans played in the confederations cup. Spain looked destroyed by the heat last year. Are you confusing it with copa America?
		
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Doh! I sure am!  Where the heck was I when that was on? 



Papas1982 said:



			Brazils style under scolari is a lot more European. Win first, style later.
		
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Good to note - perhaps. More effective, but perhaps not so entertaining!


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Brazils team in 86 were nearly as good but lost to a great French team in the quarters on pens !! That was a great match
		
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Indeed! But then that same trio (plus Junior and Oscar who were stars in 82 as well) were still there and determined to make amends. Great match indeed, but a soul destroying way for it to end. Would have been the same for England had Maradona not also scored probably my 'all time greatest goal' - though who knows what would have happened without the 'Hand of God'! 

And FairwayDodger, you are correct. Netherlands have been almost as unlucky losing to hosts both times with pretty attractive Football! I can remember the 74 Final but, for some reason, not the '78 one!  Some real stars throughout the years, but generally not enough to count - apart from 1998 (another fabulous goal, this time from a favourite - Bergkamp!) and, of course the last one. 

The quality of some of the play in those memories makes me quite look forward to it starting! Many of the internationals recently have been quite turgid!


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2014)

richart said:



			If Roy goes with Welbeck and Milner we are doomed. Doomed I tell you.
		
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Please explain? Milner should be an definite starter on Saturday. Purely to cover for Johnsons inability to get back into position. Once the Italians are tired bring on Sterling to take advantage of some tired legs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! But then that same trio (plus Junior and Oscar who were stars in 82 as well) were still there and determined to make amends. Great match indeed, but a soul destroying way for it to end. Would have been the same for England had Maradona not also scored probably my 'all time greatest goal' - though who knows what would have happened without the 'Hand of God'! 

And FairwayDodger, you are correct. Netherlands have been almost as unlucky losing to hosts both times with pretty attractive Football! I can remember the 74 Final but, for some reason, not the '78 one!  Some real stars throughout the years, but generally not enough to count - apart from 1998 (another fabulous goal, this time from a favourite - Bergkamp!) and, of course the last one. 

The quality of some of the play in those memories makes me quite look forward to it starting! Many of the internationals recently have been quite turgid!
		
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So what about England in 82


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Please explain? Milner should be an definite starter on Saturday. Purely to cover for Johnsons inability to get back into position. Once the Italians are tired bring on Sterling to take advantage of some tired legs.
		
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Milner to play where instead of who ?


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Milner to play where instead of who ?
		
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Posted up my team on page 26. (I think!) It is incredibly negative, but even me as a Glen Johnson fan. Can't ignore how much he gets caught out of position.

I still think we won't get further than the quarters, but this is the first England team in a while thats had real options on the bench.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Posted up my team on page 26. (I think!) It is incredibly negative, but even me as a Glen Johnson fan. Can't ignore how much he gets caught out of position.

I still think we won't get further than the quarters, but this is the first England team in a while thats had real options on the bench.
		
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This is the first England team that has exciting youngsters and creative players that can scare teams and we can attack teams instead of sitting a defending and being careful ! For once go for it and attack teams


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Please explain? Milner should be an definite starter on Saturday. Purely to cover for Johnsons inability to get back into position. Once the Italians are tired bring on Sterling to take advantage of some tired legs.
		
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 So we pick someone to cover the deficiency of another player ? Surely if you are so worried about Johnson we should then pick someone like Smalling to play right back, as he is better defensively but doesn't offer much going forward.

Johnson is not great but the best we have got. Let's not worry so much about stopping the opposition, but play to our strengths which is good wide players in Sterling, Lallana, and the Ox when back from injury. Italy are not that great, and probably just as worried about us as we are about them. We do need to stop Pirlo strolling around dictating the game though.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2014)

Lets face it, whoever gets picked, anything short of a win (unlikely) and they will be castigated in the press and useless and rubbish. I like Hodgson, based purely on what he did for Fulham and think he has a degree of tactical nous. Italia 90 was my first big one with drinking involved although Mexico 86 and the Lineker hat trick against Poland still stick out.


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## richy (Jun 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lets face it, whoever gets picked, anything short of a win (unlikely) and they will be castigated in the press and useless and rubbish. I like Hodgson, based purely on what he did for Fulham and think he has a degree of tactical nous. Italia 90 was my first big one with drinking involved although Mexico 86 and the Lineker hat trick against Poland still stick out.
		
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I don't think so. As long as we put in a decent performance with plenty of effort then I'll be happy. 

Our attack is our best weapon this tournament as our defence doesn't have the experience of previous years. So I really don't think we should sit back and pick players in midfield to covers our suspect players in defence.


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## Foxholer (Jun 9, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This is the first England team that has exciting youngsters and creative players that can scare teams and we can attack teams instead of sitting a defending and being careful ! For once go for it and attack teams
		
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I agree! what's the point of selecting (so many of) them for the squad and not committing to the strategy. That said, there needs to be a few wise heads as well - but there should be enough of them. Rooney also needs to be encouraged to trust his strengths (strength being one of them) as well - and not get frustrated. I do fear for his ability - or confidence/persistance - at this level though.


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## DanFST (Jun 9, 2014)

I do agree, i'd be very happy too see Lallana and Sterling on the wings, running at full backs. Can *&#8203;I see *Woy starting with them tho? No.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 9, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Never mind the black and white telly..... where was the goal line technology when we needed it!!!?



Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			Doh! I sure am!  Where the heck was I when that was on? 



Good to note - perhaps. More effective, but perhaps not so entertaining!
		
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I think most people missed it, was on bbc3 if I recall. And at silly times, mainly watched it on night shifts.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lets face it, whoever gets picked, anything short of a win (unlikely) and they will be castigated in the press and useless and rubbish. I like Hodgson, based purely on what he did for Fulham and think he has a degree of tactical nous. Italia 90 was my first big one with drinking involved although Mexico 86 and the Lineker hat trick against Poland still stick out.
		
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If he plays safe and goes tried and tested and failed methods with the safe bets without unleashing the youngsters then yes he will get castigated if they don't leave the group 

But if he plays the youngsters and goes for it then he shouldn't


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I agree! what's the point of selecting (so many of) them for the squad and not committing to the strategy. That said, there needs to be a few wise heads as well - but there should be enough of them. Rooney also needs to be encouraged to trust his strengths (strength being one of them) as well - and not get frustrated. I do fear for his ability - or confidence/persistance - at this level though.
		
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 Unfortunately Rooney is not the player he was 8 years ago. He seemed to peak at 20, very much like Michael Owen. Still a decent player, but no longer a world beater. I also think that International teams know how to play against him. Mark him very tight, and don't let him take too many touches. He then drifts out wide to find space, but where he is not that effective. 

Personally I would play him up front, and not in the number 10 position where I think Barkley is better. Stronger, quicker and can pick a pass. Not sure about Sturridge as the main striker. Scores some spectacular goals, but not a natural finisher judging by Honduras game. He drops off too much as well, which defeats the purpose of playing one up front. His movement is not in the class of a Lineker, Shearer, Fowler, Wright etc who were natural strikers.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 9, 2014)

richart said:



			Unfortunately Rooney is not the player he was 8 years ago. He seemed to peak at 20, very much like Michael Owen. Still a decent player, but no longer a world beater. I also think that International teams know how to play against him. Mark him very tight, and don't let him take too many touches. He then drifts out wide to find space, but where he is not that effective. 

Personally I would play him up front, and not in the number 10 position where I think Barkley is better. Stronger, quicker and can pick a pass. Not sure about Sturridge as the main striker. Scores some spectacular goals, but not a natural finisher judging by Honduras game. He drops off too much as well, which defeats the purpose of playing one up front. His movement is not in the class of a Lineker, Shearer, Fowler, Wright etc who were natural strikers.
		
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Certainly agree with the Sturridge comments. He doesn't do it for me and not international class imo. He should have scored at least one goal against Honduras.
Not in agreement with Rooney comments though. An England team without Rooney is weaker and the opposition will be boosted if he's left out. I think some people forget that Rooney isn't all about scoring goals - he creates so much for others and works tirelessly for the team. And he is still the 4th all time goalscorer for England!


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## richart (Jun 9, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			Certainly agree with the Sturridge comments. He doesn't do it for me and not international class imo. He should have scored at least one goal against Honduras.
Not in agreement with Rooney comments though. An England team without Rooney is weaker and the opposition will be boosted if he's left out. I think some people forget that Rooney isn't all about scoring goals - he creates so much for others and works tirelessly for the team. And he is still the 4th all time goalscorer for England!
		
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I think he plays better as a striker not a number 10. Too many flicks and misplaced passes.  Not sure that top opposition are worried by him though.


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## paddyc (Jun 9, 2014)

For me our best striker recently has been Rickie Lambert who scored a great goal, held up the ball and linked up well against Ecuador.
Ok he's not going to beat 3 or 4 defenders or out strip a centre half, but he has great touch and presence of mind to find the right positions and make good runs. No doubt Woy won't use him from the start (although he deserves a chance),but if we need a goal or get a penalty he may well be a big asset.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 10, 2014)

If England go too attack minded we won't last 2 minutes,especially in the heat.
Wed all like to see attractive attacking football but you have to set out your team to firstly not concede early on.


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## chrisd (Jun 10, 2014)

There really is so much negativity about. I know it's not the strongest squad we've ever assembled but appears, with few exceptions, about the best and as well balanced a squad as was available to Roy. He has though, for a change, assembled a team with great spirit, no apparent infighting and engendered a great fighting spirit. Man for man I'm sure they will do their best. I personally wish that he had been in charge in the last two World Cup campaigns when a far better overall squad was ruined by poor management, infighting, togetherness, and run poorly too.

No, Rooney isn't as good as he was, nor Lampard maybe but Gerrard in his new role is spot on and if Rooney gets a goal or two he at least has the ability to be closer to world class than I think Lambert could. Lallana, looked a tremendous prospect when I saw him play at ours this year and Cahill has improved big time since playing with John Terry. Roy will pick the same team against Italy that 99% of us on here could predict and I, for one, am optimistic that we could well beat Italy and, at least, shouldn't fear them.


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## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Please explain? Milner should be an definite starter on Saturday. Purely to cover for Johnsons inability to get back into position. Once the Italians are tired bring on Sterling to take advantage of some tired legs.
		
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Aaah that makes sense, play a crap player to cover for a shocking defender. I like your logic :thup:


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## DanFST (Jun 10, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Aaah that makes sense, play a crap player to cover for a shocking defender. I like your logic :thup:
		
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Yeah Milner is crap, that's why he consistently plays for the champions of England, and has 2 Premier League medals. 

He's not glamorous, but is a typical box to box player that will Run forward and track back non stop.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2014)

So much negativity.............here is a thought.
Just pretend you are Scotland


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## cookelad (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If he plays safe and goes tried and tested and failed methods with the safe bets without unleashing the youngsters then yes he will get castigated if they don't leave the group 

But if he plays the youngsters and goes for it then he shouldn't
		
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:thup:

I'd be happy with 3 x 4-3 losses if it meant we'd had a go!

Said it before but, if the team goes out of the tournament putting a shift in, what more can you ask of them?


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## Rooter (Jun 10, 2014)

cookelad said:



			:thup:

I'd be happy with 3 x 4-3 losses if it meant we'd had a go!

Said it before but, if the team goes out of the tournament putting a shift in, what more can you ask of them?
		
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Im with you on that. much rather lose trying, than say trying to claw back a 4 goal gap on game 3 due to playing for the draw in earlier games. tournament football means playing to win for me. give it a go, if you lose you lose.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

DanFST said:



			Yeah Milner is crap, that's why he consistently plays for the champions of England, and has 2 Premier League medals. 

He's not glamorous, but is a typical box to box player that will Run forward and track back non stop.
		
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Havent players like Taibi, Welbeck and djemba djemba got winners medals too? 

I agree reed he's not as bad as made out, but if Milner starts then we won't be playing attacking footy, that's for sure. 

Also, I always thought box to box meant he contributed all Ã¼ber the pitch. He works hard and is a nuisance, but hardly a goal threat. Especially for someone who started as a striker.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Which team competing at the World Cup doesn't represent a country (as recognised by the UN)?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which team competing at the World Cup doesn't represent a country (as recognised by the UN)?
		
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England?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			England?
		
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Bingo! We're gonna be Great Britain I would imagine.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			England?
		
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Yep - recognised by the UN as the UK


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep - recognised by the UN as the UK
		
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And fifa if they had their way too!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			And fifa if they had their way too!
		
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Would actually make the team a tiny bit stronger but will never happen


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			And fifa if they had their way too!
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Would actually make the team a tiny bit stronger but will never happen
		
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Would be the quickest way to ensure a "yes" vote in the referendum!


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## Rooter (Jun 10, 2014)

Apart from Bale and Ramsay, who from outside of England would make a UK football starting XI??


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Apart from Bale and Ramsay, who from outside of England would make a UK football starting XI??
		
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No one


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Apart from Bale and Ramsay, who from outside of England would make a UK football starting XI??
		
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Not many, but they'd probably be our best two players!

never gonna happen as shown by all the hoops that had to be jumped through for the Olympic team. 

Shouldn't happen either.  

The carribean don't have a team last time I checked!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Not many, but they'd probably be our best two players!

never gonna happen as shown by all the hoops that had to be jumped through for the Olympic team. 

Shouldn't happen either.  

The carribean don't have a team last time I checked!
		
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The Carribean aren't recognised as a official national working under the same government etc - not really a comparison


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Carribean aren't recognised as a official national working under the same government etc - not really a comparison
		
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Fifa say governments are allowed no influence on football, so sharing a government has no relevance IMO. 

Either way, way, neither will become a single entity football wise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Fifa say governments are allowed no influence on football, so sharing a government has no relevance IMO. 

Either way, way, neither will become a single entity football wise.
		
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Ok ill word it another way 

The UK is a recognised nation - the Caribbean is not - simple


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## Rooter (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok ill word it another way 

The UK is a recognised nation - the Caribbean is not - simple
		
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Say "beer can" without sounding like a Jamaican ordering a breakfast item.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

Ok I concede, the last word is yours........



Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok ill word it another way 

The UK is a recognised nation - the Caribbean is not - simple
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Say "beer can" without sounding like a Jamaican ordering a breakfast item.
		
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:rofl:


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## c1973 (Jun 10, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Say "beer can" without sounding like a Jamaican ordering a breakfast item.
		
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:rofl:  

It can't be done!


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## cookelad (Jun 10, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Say "beer can" without sounding like a Jamaican ordering a breakfast item.
		
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Now getting funny looks from those around me!


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## Slime (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok ill word it another way 

The UK is a recognised nation - the Caribbean is not - simple
		
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Surely it's a recognised group of four nations!


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

Slime said:



			Surely it's a recognised group of four nations!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Which one ? 

The UK is a UN recognised nation of one ! 

Caribbean is a group of Islands ( about 27 I think )


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2014)

OK, you can relax now England fans.

As an impartial observer I have now completed a "world cup predictor" sheet at work and can confirm that England will qualify comfortably from the group with two wins and a draw.


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## cookelad (Jun 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			OK, you can relax now England fans.

As an impartial observer I have now completed a "world cup predictor" sheet at work and can confirm that England will qualify comfortably from the group with two wins and a draw.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking as someone who drew Italy in the office sweepstake I find this news very distressing is there any chance you are wrong?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 10, 2014)

cookelad said:



			Speaking as someone who drew Italy in the office sweepstake I find this news very distressing is there any chance you are wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Based on my usual success at predicting sporting outcomes, there is a 73.2% chance I am wrong.

Although, I also had Italy going through - Uruguay to be the disappointing spare part!


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## cookelad (Jun 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Based on my usual success at predicting sporting outcomes, there is a 73.2% chance I am wrong.

Although, I also had Italy going through - Uruguay to be the disappointing spare part!
		
Click to expand...

Now I can't work out whether it's good news or bad! Let alone who I'm supposed to be supporting!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			OK, you can relax now England fans.

As an impartial observer I have now completed a "world cup predictor" sheet at work and can confirm that England will qualify comfortably from the group with two wins and a draw.
		
Click to expand...

Drinking this early in the day isn't a good thing FD


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

It appears England have had a stroke of luck - looks like Welbeck is injured and will possibly be out of the Italy game


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It appears England have had a stroke of luck - looks like Welbeck is injured and will possibly be out of the Italy game 

Click to expand...

We've only got to get  22 more injured and we could win the whole bloomin thing


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It appears England have had a stroke of luck - looks like Welbeck is injured and will possibly be out of the Italy game 

Click to expand...

Is this a proper injury or the type of injury that Gerrard had that was made up by the press?


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Is this a proper injury or the type of injury that Gerrard had that was made up by the press?
		
Click to expand...

Sky Sports saying he had his leg strapped up and left training early, make of that what you will.



Liverpoolphil said:



			It appears England have had a stroke of luck - looks like Welbeck is injured and will possibly be out of the Italy game 

Click to expand...

I hope not as he would be a good player to bring on late in the game when there's tired legs


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			Sky Sports saying he had his leg strapped up and left training early, make of that what you will.



*I hope not as he would be a good player to bring on late in the game when there's tired legs*

Click to expand...

*
*I agree, whilst he shouldn't start, he's a better attacking option than some we have left on the bench. 

I really dont don't remember Heskey getting this much grief, and his goal great was even worse!


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## Rooter (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I really dont don't remember Heskey getting this much grief, and his goal great was even worse!
		
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Really??!! Heskey got biblical amounts of grief for being a donkey!

I remember a transfer deadline day a few years ago, he was spotted at The Stadium of Light, the only problem was, he was aiming for St James Park!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Really??!! Heskey got biblical amounts of grief for being a donkey!

I remember a transfer deadline day a few years ago, he was spotted at The Stadium of Light, the only problem was, he was aiming for St James Park!
		
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he he used to be given a lot of stick, but  I don't remember him being hated so much as welbeck can appear to be. He was mocked more than abused IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			he he used to be given a lot of stick, but  I don't remember him being hated so much as welbeck can appear to be. He was mocked more than abused IMO.
		
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Heskey had momentum for sure - did he not run off the pitch once and into the stand - and the stand collapsed...


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heskey had momentum for sure - did he not run off the pitch once and into the stand - and the stand collapsed...
		
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All I know is that when you finish your intl career as a striker there shouldn't be a goalkeeper in history with a better goals per game ratio than you achieved. Unfortunately for Emile, there is!


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## c1973 (Jun 11, 2014)

I'll see Emile Heskey and raise you Brian McClair. 50* odd caps without a goal then he got one when (this is the best bit) he was already past it!! Lol

I always said we would still be playing him out of sympathy if he never got that goal. Pretty sure Eddie Murphy done the voice over for him, cos he was a donkey! 

*pretty sure it was 50, might have been slightly less or (more than likely) more.

Edit: 30 caps.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			Sky Sports saying he had his leg strapped up and left training early, make of that what you will.



I hope not as he would be a good player to bring on late in the game when there's tired legs
		
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Hasn't Welbeck scored something like 8 in 20 games for England? That's a great record. I'd have been tempted to start him against Italy and see how he got on. By playing him out wide left and drifting in Rooney would play behind Sturridge to stop Pirlo from picking the ball up and also be far enough up top to case problems.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Marshy77 said:



			Hasn't Welbeck scored something like 8 in 20 games for England? That's a great record. I'd have been tempted to start him against Italy and see how he got on. By playing him out wide left and drifting in Rooney would play behind Sturridge to stop Pirlo from picking the ball up and also be far enough up top to case problems.
		
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His record for England is pretty good, albeit they haven't been agaisnt anyone of real note yet. Scotland, Belgium, Sweden, San Marino and Moldova. 

I dont one object to him being in the squad, just don't think he's the biggest goal threat.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			he he used to be given a lot of stick, but  I don't remember him being hated so much as welbeck can appear to be. He was mocked more than abused IMO.
		
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Heskey was abused everywhere he went by fans 

But for a couple seasons for us he was unstoppable 

The England game against Germany in 2001 he was machine that night 

Welbeck not being fully fit will force Woy's hand to play Sterling and Lallana - that is a good thing


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## Rooter (Jun 11, 2014)

Marshy77 said:



			Hasn't Welbeck scored something like 8 in 20 games for England? That's a great record.
		
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Stats can be misleading.

His 8 goals have come against:

Belgium - Friendly
Sweden- euro2012
San Marion x 2 - WC Qual
Sweden - Friendly
Scotland - Friendly
Moldova x 2 - WC Qual

Hardly tough or important games, but i suppose apart from world cups and Euros, we dont many important games..


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Heskey was abused everywhere he went by fans 

But for a couple seasons for us he was unstoppable 

The England game against Germany in 2001 he was machine that night 

Welbeck not being fully fit will force Woy's hand to play Sterling and Lallana - that is a good thing
		
Click to expand...

Thik he scored 20 plus goals for you once didn't he?

i remember mocking him loads, but don't remember people as anti him as they are welbeck, especially considering Wellbeck has a far superior record. 

He was a machine against Germany made his usual performances even more annoying, Owens record was always better playing with him too. 

Sterling and and lallana would be my choice.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Stats can be misleading.

His 8 goals have come against:

Belgium - Friendly
Sweden- euro2012
San Marion x 2 - WC Qual
Sweden - Friendly
Scotland - Friendly
Moldova x 2 - WC Qual

Hardly tough or important games, but i suppose apart from world cups and Euros, we dont many important games..
		
Click to expand...

I agree to a point, the friendly goals aren't important. 

Tournaments or qualifiers for the. Are IMO. That being said, being against Moldova and San Marino kinda negates that point somewhat!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Thik he scored 20 plus goals for you once didn't he?

i remember mocking him loads, but don't remember people as anti him as they are welbeck, especially considering Wellbeck has a far superior record. 

He was a machine against Germany made his usual performances even more annoying, Owens record was always better playing with him too. 

Sterling and and lallana would be my choice.
		
Click to expand...

They were very much anti Heskey - a damn sight more than Welbeck. 

Even the Liverpool fans thought he was toilet - Welbeck at least has the backing of the Mancs ( well some ) 

I wouldn't be doing any cartwheels about Welbecks record and Heskey a lot of time doing a lot of ( appropriate ) Donkey work for Owen to do the scoring - that can't be measured in stats.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 11, 2014)

Rooter said:



			Stats can be misleading.

His 8 goals have come against:

Belgium - Friendly
Sweden- euro2012
San Marion x 2 - WC Qual
Sweden - Friendly
Scotland - Friendly
Moldova x 2 - WC Qual

Hardly tough or important games, but i suppose apart from world cups and Euros, we dont many important games..
		
Click to expand...

Then again I think Rooney hardly ever scores in the finals of championships nowadays.  But then again, who does really for England?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

Amongst all this talk of who should and shouldn't play, it's good to know that the stadium is ready 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ands-World-Cup-2014-opener-against-Italy.html


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They were very much anti Heskey - a damn sight more than Welbeck. 

Even the Liverpool fans thought he was toilet - Welbeck at least has the backing of the Mancs ( well some ) 

I wouldn't be doing any cartwheels about Welbecks record and Heskey a lot of time doing a lot of ( appropriate ) Donkey work for Owen to do the scoring - that can't be measured in stats.
		
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Maybe not, but to be fair, Wellbeck does plenty of donkey work and still manages a much better goals record. 
Wel I can only speak from my experiences, but Heskey wasn't given as much stick that i saw. 

Either way his injury could be a blessing IF we get a positive result against Italy without him.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Amongst all this talk of who should and shouldn't play, it's good to know that the stadium is ready 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ands-World-Cup-2014-opener-against-Italy.html

Click to expand...

that is shocking! 

But hey, giving world cups to countries that can't cope is all part of fifas sharing football with the world.


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*It appears England have had a stroke of luck - looks like Welbeck is injured* and will possibly be out of the Italy game 

Click to expand...

How utterly predictable :thup:

I, for one, hope that ALL England players stay injury free and available for whenever Hodgson requires them ......................... but then again, I AM an England supporter!

*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			How utterly predictable :thup:

I, for one, hope that ALL England players stay injury free and available for whenever Hodgson requires them ......................... but then again, I AM an England supporter!

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

With a heavy Manc based bias in the opinion of course

Welbeck not playing is better for England - simple as that. So as an England supporter you should want your manager to put out the best team available to him - that doesn't include Welbeck or do you blindly follow


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			i remember mocking him loads, but don't remember people as anti him as they are welbeck, especially considering Wellbeck has a far superior record.
		
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I don't recall back then there being another quality striker to push Heskey for that 2nd forward role so people just had to accept it.
Now we seem to have a glut of young talent who are quite obviously much better than Welbeck hence the outcry.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With a heavy Manc based bias in the opinion of course

Welbeck not playing is better for England - simple as that. So as an England supporter you should want your manager to put out the best team available to him - that doesn't include Welbeck or do you blindly follow
		
Click to expand...

At least he is an England supporter LP, unlike your good self (although I'm beginning to suspect that you actually are)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			At least he is an England supporter LP, unlike your good self (although I'm beginning to suspect that you actually are)
		
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Again I have an interest and my interest would certainly change if there was a shift away from the tried and tested - I spent the 80's and 90's supporting England until the Beckham and England media circus arrived into town and the endless nonsense posted in the media etc etc - it turned me off supporting England. 

Hodgson has a chance to do something different than over the last decade or so - a chance to actually show the world with have talent that can play. Do that and go out there and get some enjoyment in England football team and things might actually look up.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			I don't recall back then there being another quality striker to push Heskey for that 2nd forward role so people just had to accept it.
Now we seem to have a glut of young talent who are quite obviously much better than Welbeck hence the outcry.
		
Click to expand...

My think there were plenty of English stikers with better goals game ratios than Heskey, but they belayed for clubs smaller than Liverpool and were ignored back then. 

If we didn't take Welbeck to WC, which other striker would have gone?
he shouldn't start if that most if us agree, but if we need to bring a striker on with pace. He's our only spare option.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again I have an interest and my interest would certainly change if there was a shift away from the tried and tested - I spent the 80's and 90's supporting England until the Beckham and England media circus arrived into town and the endless nonsense posted in the media etc etc - it turned me off supporting England. 

Hodgson has a chance to do something different than over the last decade or so - a chance to actually show the world with have talent that can play. Do that and go out there and get some enjoyment in England football team and things might actually look up.
		
Click to expand...

Did you stop supporting Liverpool when things weren't going so well too?


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2014)

Another thing I've noticed, some England players play with fear in the big games. Welbeck, Carrick, Cleverley to name but a few. They are scared of the ball when the pressure is on and aren't comfortable with it at feet for any length of time.
I didn't mean to pick 3 Utd players there but those were the first ones who sprang to mind 
Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Lallana, Barkley, Sturridge all happy to want the ball when surrounded by the opposition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Did you stop supporting Liverpool when things weren't going so well too?
		
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When did I say I stopped supporting when things didn't go well ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			My think there were plenty of English stikers with better goals game ratios than Heskey, but they belayed for clubs smaller than Liverpool and were ignored back then. 

If we didn't take Welbeck to WC, which other striker would have gone?
he shouldn't start if that most if us agree, but if we need to bring a striker on with pace. He's our only spare option.
		
Click to expand...

Heskey was picked because of his working relationship with Owen. 

It's unlucky that Rodriguez got injured because I would have taken him instead of Welbeck.


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			If we didn't take Welbeck to WC, which other striker would have gone?
he shouldn't start if that most if us agree, but if we need to bring a striker on with pace. He's our only spare option.
		
Click to expand...

Dunno, he's barely getting a game for Utd but like Heskey, he's the best of the rest I guess.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Heskey was picked because of his working relationship with Owen. 

It's unlucky that Rodriguez got injured because I would have taken him instead of Welbeck.
		
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I get why he was picked, but genuinely think there were better options available. But then that could be said for a few players of the Sven era where he picked his pals.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 11, 2014)

During PMQ's 'our' leader sent his best wishes to the England team... "Joining all those from Britain wishing the team well"... Think its fair to say those present from north of the wall found this mildly amusing...


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With a heavy Manc based bias in the opinion of course

Welbeck not playing is better for England - simple as that. So as an England supporter you should want your manager to put out the best team available to him - that doesn't include Welbeck or do you blindly follow
		
Click to expand...

No bias at all ........... I merely said that I don't wish ANY England players to get injured ..................... or didn't you get that? 
If not, read it again.



HawkeyeMS said:



			At least he is an England supporter LP, unlike your good self (although I'm beginning to suspect that you actually are)
		
Click to expand...

:thup:



Liverpoolphil said:



			Again I have an interest and my interest would certainly change if there was a shift away from the tried and tested - *I spent the 80's and 90's supporting England until the Beckham and England media circus arrived into town and the endless nonsense posted in the media etc etc* - it turned me off supporting England. 

Hodgson has a chance to do something different than over the last decade or so - a chance to actually show the world with have talent that can play. Do that and go out there and get some enjoyment in England football team and things might actually look up.
		
Click to expand...

What happened when the Suarez and Liverpool medis circus rode into town and posted, presumably, 'endless nonsense' in the media?
Or was that different ...................... maybe it wasn't nonsense ...................... 
	
	
		
		
	


	







*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			No bias at all ........... I merely said that I don't wish ANY England players to get injured ..................... or didn't you get that? 
If not, read it again.



:thup:



What happened when the Suarez and Liverpool medis circus rode into town and posted, presumably, 'endless nonsense' in the media?
Or was that different ...................... maybe it wasn't nonsense ...................... 







*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

What does Suarez and Liverpool have to do with anything ?! Totally irrelevant comment.


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What does Suarez and Liverpool have to do with anything ?! Totally irrelevant comment.
		
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You stopped supporting one team due to a media circus, why not stop supporting another team due to a media circus?
Simple question and a totally relevant analogy.


*Slime*.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			You stopped supporting one team due to a media circus, why not stop supporting another team due to a media circus?
Simple question and a totally relevant analogy.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

I stopped supporting England because every single time the tournament came around from 2002 the media went into hysterics in regards England's chances etc - golden generation etc etc and the whole thing put me off supporting England - it wasn't pure 

In the 80's and 90's it was about the football and nothing else - in wags , no scandals , no corruptions , no players whining and crying about being bored and also watching my clubs players go away and then get injured and the club having to suffer because of it , watching managers pick players purely on reputation , watching the FA pick managers unsuited - no sorry lost all connection to the England football team a connection that was only loose anyway. 

My connection to my club is totally different and is something that can't be explained into words and even that get tested and has done in the last ten years but that is irrelevant to anything to do with England Football Team.

I have explained it enough times now. I can still show an interest in the team and I am hoping for a change to happen and think there is a chance of that happening.


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I stopped supporting England because every single time the tournament came around from 2002 the media went into hysterics in regards England's chances etc - golden generation etc etc and the whole thing put me off supporting England - it wasn't pure 

In the 80's and 90's it was about the football and nothing else - in wags , no scandals , no corruptions , no players whining and crying about being bored and also watching my clubs players go away and then get injured and the club having to suffer because of it , watching managers pick players purely on reputation , watching the FA pick managers unsuited - no sorry lost all connection to the England football team a connection that was only loose anyway. 

My connection to my club is totally different and is something that can't be explained into words and even that get tested and has done in the last ten years but that is irrelevant to anything to do with England Football Team.

I have explained it enough times now. *I can still show an interest in the team* and I am hoping for a change to happen and think there is a chance of that happening.
		
Click to expand...

Do you want that team to do well, even win it?


*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2014)

Have England got a song as good as 'Kick That Soccer Ball'.

Surprised I have not heard England's song yet, not long to go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			Do you want that team to do well, even win it?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Not bothered either way - want the team to show some heart , passion , connection to the fans , desire , show they actually want to represent the country with pride. 

Want to see a good World Cup ( because the last was truely awful ) with great attacking play , lots of spectacular goals and young players making a name for themselves - want to shocks and unknowns burst onto the scene. Want the World Cup to be about the sport of football and not the politics but that's impossible now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not bothered either way...
		
Click to expand...

You see I just can't imagine EVER thinking that about Scotland.  I can think it about England but I'm allowed to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You see I just can't imagine EVER thinking that about Scotland.  I can think it about England but I'm allowed to.
		
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Because I'm not connected to the England football team - I already have a connection with a football team.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because I'm not connected to the England football team - I already have a connection with a football team.
		
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Go on Phil, admit that if England won it there would be a little stirring of national pride somewhere deep down inside.

just a smidgen


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Go on Phil, admit that if England won it there would be a little stirring of national pride somewhere deep down inside.

just a smidgen 

Click to expand...

National pride ? No most certainly not.


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## Rooter (Jun 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Go on Phil, admit that if England won it there would be a little stirring of national pride somewhere deep down inside.

just a smidgen 

Click to expand...

We all know there would be, and i will wager he will watch every England match like the rest of us. the one thing i can guarantee though, he wont go back and say a comment he made ages ago was wrong. 

Its quite clear from this thread alone, he is getting well into the world cup spirit! I heard a rumour he was getting the little plastic flags for his car, shaving his head and getting the george cross died on especially!


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Suarez scores against England.......... Does Phil cheer or curse.....?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Suarez scores against England.......... Does Phil cheer or curse.....?



Click to expand...

Neither 

Unless - is it a quality goal ?


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Neither 

Unless - is it a quality goal ?
		
Click to expand...


Screamer! 

Although, personally, I'm hoping he pulls off another "hand of god" moment! If only for the meltdown it'll cause in here......


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Screamer! 

Although, personally, I'm hoping he pulls off another "hand of god" moment! If only for the meltdown it'll cause in here...... 

Click to expand...


Meltdown !! Nuclear meltdown if that happened.


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Screamer! 

Although, personally, I'm hoping he pulls off another "hand of god" moment! If only for the meltdown it'll cause in here...... 

Click to expand...

I think it would cause meltdown if he did it against anyone


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Cahill snaps Suarez. Does Phil sob quietly or ball his eyes out?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Rooter said:



			We all know there would be, and i will wager he will watch every England match like the rest of us. the one thing i can guarantee though, he wont go back and say a comment he made ages ago was wrong. 

Its quite clear from this thread alone, he is getting well into the world cup spirit! I heard a rumour he was getting the little plastic flags for his car, shaving his head and getting the george cross died on especially!
		
Click to expand...

Of course he will watch the England games,whilst telling every one within ear shot what England are doing wrong & how they should be doing it. 
All this whilst Calling Roy "Woy" at every opportunity


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Of course he will watch the England games,whilst telling every one within ear shot what England are doing wrong & how they should be doing it. 
All this whilst Calling Roy "Woy" at every opportunity 

Click to expand...

Well I can't  actually watch two of the England games anyway - sorry to disappoint


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I can't  actually watch two of the England games anyway - sorry to disappoint
		
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So which 2 games won't you be commenting on, on here?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well I can't  actually watch two of the England games anyway - sorry to disappoint
		
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Do you know the date & time of all the teams fixtures? Or just the team you support?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			So which 2 games won't you be commenting on, on here?
		
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The second two I think it is  - Italy and Costa Rica. Next Tuesday and Thursday afterwards

But I'm pretty sure I'm still ok to comment ? Yes ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Do you know the date & time of all the teams fixtures? Or just the team you support? 

Click to expand...

Well they have a wall chart up in work so it's pretty easy to see the fixtures -


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The second two I think it is  - Italy and Costa Rica. Next Tuesday and Thursday afterwards

But I'm pretty sure I'm still ok to comment ? Yes ?
		
Click to expand...

You see what he did here,he got the fixtures wrong in an attempt to make it look like he don't care:rofl:
You're fooling no one Phil.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Go on Phil, admit that if England won it there would be a little stirring of national pride somewhere deep down inside.

just a smidgen 

Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			National pride ? No most certainly not.
		
Click to expand...


So no fist pumps and no cries of "come on my son" when England score in the last 5 minutes to win against Italy?


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

1. England beat Uraguay 1-0 with Welbeck scoring a screamer .......................... does Phil cheer or curse?

2. England win the World Cup with Welbeck scoring a screamer ......................... does Phil cheer or curse?



Answers on a postcard ................................


*Slime*.


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The second two I think it is  - Italy and Costa Rica. Next Tuesday and Thursday afterwards

But I'm pretty sure I'm still ok to comment ? Yes ?
		
Click to expand...

We play Italy this Saturday. But you already knew that as you've mentioned it in previous posts on this thread. Also you have a wall chart at work (which may be incorrect).

So you won't be able to comment on player performances etc, only the result.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So no fist pumps and no cries of "come on my son" when England score in the last 5 minutes to win against Italy?
		
Click to expand...


That is correct - none of that :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			1. England beat Uraguay 1-0 with Welbeck scoring a screamer .......................... does Phil cheer or curse?

2. England win the World Cup with Welbeck scoring a screamer ......................... does Phil cheer or curse?



Answers on a postcard ................................


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:

Blimey it must be bedtime


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			1. England beat Uraguay 1-0 with Welbeck scoring a screamer (tried to control ball on half way line but first touch is so poor it ends up in the top corner) .......................... does Phil cheer or curse?

2. England win the World Cup with Welbeck scoring a screamer ......................... does Phil cheer or curse?



Answers on a postcard ................................


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

What about you're mate Stevie G? Surely he deserves a WC winners medal? 
Imagine how happy he would be
Hed kiss every camera lens in the Stadium.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			We play Italy this Saturday. But you already knew that as you've mentioned it in previous posts on this thread. Also you have a wall chart at work (which may be incorrect).

So you won't be able to comment on player performances etc, only the result.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Uruguay and Costa Rica - sorry I haven't studied the wall chart thoroughly just yet 

And at some point will check out highlights to see how the Liverpool players get on etc 

I didn't realise my watching and commenting and supporting was so crucial to everyone ? 

Is there anything else people would like to know ? 

I still don't see what is wrong with not supporting the England football team ? When did it come compulsory to do so - getting a but pathetic the third degree tbh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			What about you're mate Stevie G? Surely he deserves a WC winners medal? 
Imagine how happy he would be
Hed kiss every camera lens in the Stadium.
		
Click to expand...

It's boring now - it really is.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

I think his attention seeking plan as worked
Back to England now. I'm gutted Beckham won't be there,what a Legend


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

The Sky Sports website has a section where you can choose your starting eleven against Italy. You can then see and compare to some of the panelists from Soccer Saturday. You can also see what the majority of the public would choose.

Pretty sure Welbeck wasn't in many starting line ups


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			The Sky Sports website has a section where you can choose your starting eleven against Italy. You can then see and compare to some of the panelists from Soccer Saturday. You can also see what the majority of the public would choose.

Pretty sure Welbeck wasn't in many starting line ups
		
Click to expand...

Most popular has Sterling Lallana in 

I do hope that's what Woy does


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most popular has Sterling Lallana in 

I do hope that's what Woy does
		
Click to expand...

I read in the paper today that with Welbeck possibly out Milner could be the replacement


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			I read in the paper today that with Welbeck possibly out Milner could be the replacement 

Click to expand...

Can easily see it - would to see Sterling light up the World Cup


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			I read in the paper today that with Welbeck possibly out Milner could be the replacement 

Click to expand...

Apparently Rooney as said that Welbeck will be ok to play on Saturday.


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry Uruguay and Costa Rica - sorry *I haven't studied the wall chart thoroughly just yet *

And at some point will check out highlights to see how the Liverpool players get on etc 

*I didn't realise my watching and commenting and supporting was so crucial to everyone ? *

Is there anything else people would like to know ? 

I still don't see what is wrong with not supporting the England football team ? When did it come compulsory to do so - getting a but pathetic the third degree tbh.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:Brilliant, just brilliant!:rofl:


Of course it's crucial .........................* it's a thread you started* so your thoughts/comments/ideas are key.


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Go easy guys,just had another infraction


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Welbeck has only been included in 7 percent of the teams selected on Sky Sports website. 

I really don't understand Roy's fascination with him


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Go easy guys,just had another infraction

Click to expand...

What for?

How do you know if you have an infraction?


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			Welbeck has only been included in 7 percent of the teams selected on Sky Sports website. 

I really don't understand Roy's fascination with him
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps he sees him in training!


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			What for?

How do you know if you have an infraction?
		
Click to expand...

As if you've never had on Pahahaha 
You get a message off a mod.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2014)

Just for the record

I am a Palace fan ..... A quirk of where I was born and bought up

I firmly believe in Country before club

I would love to see us lift the World Cup - I've see it happen once!

I can't believe any true football fan wouldn't care for their national team!!

Oh, and I'd be happy if Scotland, Ireland or Wales did well too

There, I've said it!


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Just for the record

I am a Palace fan ..... A quirk of where I was born and bought up

I firmly believe in Country before club

I would love to see us lift the World Cup - I've see it happen once!

I can't believe any true football fan wouldn't care for their national team!!

Oh, and I'd be happy if Scotland, Ireland or Wales did well too

There, I've said it!
		
Click to expand...

Woooaaahh ........................... an adult opinion.
Mind if I join you, Chris?


*Slime*.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			Woooaaahh ........................... an adult opinion.
Mind if I join you, Chris?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...



Jump aboard Slime, always nice to be with you!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

The pitch for England v Italy looks shocking


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			What for?

How do you know if you have an infraction?
		
Click to expand...




Pin-seeker said:



			As if you've never had on Pahahaha 
You get a message off a mod.
		
Click to expand...


Gents no infractions have been issued, but warnings have been given out, just so there is no confusion


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gents no infractions have been issued, but warnings have been given out, just so there is no confusion
		
Click to expand...

Apologies it was a warning. 
Cheers Phil.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Looks like Rooney is being set up to be the scapegoat for if/when we fail.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

Slime said:



			:rofl:Brilliant, just brilliant!:rofl:


Of course it's crucial .........................* it's a thread you started* so your thoughts/comments/ideas are key.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

I didnt start the thread - paddyc did 

I will watch a lot of games at the World Cup - and i hope there is a lot of exciting football on show and hopefully that will include England and players like Sterling , Lallana and Barkley shining out.


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			Welbeck has only been included in 7 percent of the teams selected on Sky Sports website. 

I really don't understand Roy's fascination with him
		
Click to expand...

According to reports it's Sterling that's been getting all the plaudits in training. Not surprising really as he had a terrific second half of the season..


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			According to reports it's Sterling that's been getting all the plaudits in training. Not surprising really as he had a terrific second half of the season..
		
Click to expand...

All the pressure on sterling then if he plays.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			According to reports it's Sterling that's been getting all the plaudits in training. Not surprising really as he had a terrific second half of the season..
		
Click to expand...

Thats why i would like to see him unleashed - he is flying , and has so much to his game , he could really be a future world star. This is the time to let these guys loose.


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			All the pressure on sterling then if he plays.
		
Click to expand...

I think there's pressure on every player unfortunately


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## Dodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Have your lot not been knocked out yet?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

richy said:



			I think there's pressure on every player unfortunately
		
Click to expand...

It's nothing compared to the pressure on Brazil's team. 
Anything other than winning the WC is seen as a failure.


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## richy (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thats why i would like to see him unleashed - he is flying , and has so much to his game , he could really be a future world star. This is the time to let these guys loose.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I think he could run the Italian defence ragged, I actually think they'd be worried about facing him. Welbeck........not so much.
[video=youtube;7S6tRRfr8iE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6tRRfr8iE[/video]


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 11, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Have your lot not been knocked out yet?
		
Click to expand...

Not be long pal. At least you've got the U.S Open to watch


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I can't believe any true football fan wouldn't care for their national team!!
		
Click to expand...

Historically (and with some notable exceptions), players *seem* to care more for the *performance* of their (current) Club than that of their Country, so I don't see why it should be a big deal if fans are significantly more Club focused as well! I know quite a few who think that way - quite probably for the limited prospects for England as opposed to the ability to make something happen with a Club, as it's normally fans of the top half dozen clubs that think that way.

There's a difference between 'caring' and 'taking an interest' btw! 

As a Foreigner whose National team isn't in it, I want to see exciting Football. A Brazil 4 Argentina 1 Final would please me a lot! May not even be possible though!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

BBC reporting Wellbeck will be fit, sorry.

Although it is only Rooney's opinion so may not be true


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## Dodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because I'm not connected to the England football team - I already have a connection with a football team.
		
Click to expand...


You post an awful lot of jobby on a thread about a team you hold no connection to.

And every one of your posts is an expert opinion.

Extraordinary.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Just for the record

I am a Palace fan ..... A quirk of where I was born and bought up

I firmly believe in Country before club

I would love to see us lift the World Cup - I've see it happen once!

I can't believe any true football fan wouldn't care for their national team!!

Oh, and I'd be happy if Scotland, Ireland or Wales did well too

There, I've said it!
		
Click to expand...

Pretty much concur word for word... apart from being a Palace fan. Not while I've breathe left in my body. Fulham may be crap but I know we'll never win anything so rarely disappointed


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Just for the record

I am a Palace fan ..... A quirk of where I was born and bought up

I firmly believe in Country before club

I would love to see us lift the World Cup - I've see it happen once!

I can't believe any true football fan wouldn't care for their national team!!

Oh, and I'd be happy if Scotland, Ireland or Wales did well too

There, I've said it!
		
Click to expand...

With the whole country vs club for both players and supporters etc i was listening to a phone with Ian Wright and Kelly Dalglish on 606 one night and they were discussing the support of England 

Hopefully i will word this ok

A lot of people seem to think that the majority of the support for England

1. Comes from clubs in the southern region of England - mainly because of Wemberlee and the ease for them to get there

2 But crucially a lot of clubs who in the past havent had the top players playing at their clubs or the success for the fans to enjoy etc - 

for example through the 70 and 80s etc Liverpool had a lot of success along with clubs like Everton and a few others - in that period all the top players etc where coming to Anfield and the supporters were seeing success so not many Liverpool fans bothered to travel down to Wemberlee to see a team that wasnt giving them the excitement that they saw week in week out on a saturday - also valid for the Manchester fans in the 90s etc.

A lot of travelling England fans etc are from the lower league and non league clubs apparently - thats whats they quoted and you can sort of see it when you look at the flags at an England game -you see teams like Gillingham or even Borehamwood written across the flags. When i grew up i watch Liverpool on the stands and then England on the telly when the World Cup game on - my mates werent really England fans and the only time we went to Wemberlee was for a cup final. 

I have spoken to lots of Liverpool fans and Everton fans and even Mancs etc and they have the same approach to England as i do ( obviously its not the majority and there are various reasons ) 

But many times i have heard on phones in and in grounds etc that England is a Southern England team - its not viable for people up North to travel to Wemberlee.

What i believe the FA should have done is do what lots of other countries do - play the home games at various stadiums around the country - maybe reach out to the whole of the country - Spain , Italy , Holland , Germany , Brazil etc all do it - we just have one stadium and at a lot of games the stadium is half empty with zero atmosphere.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2014)

I use to go home and away with England in the 80's and to be honest the core support came from the Midlands (Brum, Villa, Baggies). Going away with Fulham a lot of small clubs, especially from oop north were moaning even 30 years ago at the cost and logistics to get a family down to see the national team. I thought that the FA might have continued with playing friendly matches around the country with qualifiers at Wembley. I assume money still talks even though Anfield, Old Trafford, and others would be sell outs


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## richart (Jun 11, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pretty much concur word for word... apart from being a Palace fan. Not while I've breathe left in my body. Fulham may be crap but I know we'll never win anything so rarely disappointed
		
Click to expand...

 Same here. Perhaps it is supporting second rate teams that make us think that way.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2014)

richart said:



			Same here. Perhaps it is supporting second rate teams that make us think that way.

Click to expand...

Not sure Fulham are good enough to be classed second rate these days.


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2014)

No matter what England teams are involved in I want to see them win. Netball, rugby  table tennis, whatever... when I see national players pull on an England shirt I want them to do well I quite understand that anyone from Scotland feel the same way as should the Welsh, Irish et al.

I get peeved that certain people would want to support any country that we are playing beat us, but, I equally see why those people don't actually support us. I, for one, wanted Scotland to beat Holland back in (was it) 1974 and was disappointed when they didn't.

I can't see the Wemberleeeeee argument. I gave been there and watched England but I'd equally support the England team wherever they play and when Wemberlee was undergoing reconstruction I still supported them, why would I not ....... I'm English!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



*No matter what England teams are involved in I want to see them win. Netball, rugby  table tennis, whatever... when I see national players pull on an England shirt I want them to do well I quite understand that anyone from Scotland feel the same way as should the Welsh, Irish et al.*

I get peeved that certain people would want to support any country that we are playing beat us, but, I equally see why those people don't actually support us. I, for one, wanted Scotland to beat Holland back in (was it) 1974 and was disappointed when they didn't.

I can't see the Wemberleeeeee argument. I gave been there and watched England but I'd equally support the England team wherever they play and when Wemberlee was undergoing reconstruction I still supported them, why would I not ....... I'm English!
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, I even found myself watching the England v Belgium hockey world cup match the other night - live, the whole game. I've never played or watched hockey before but England were playing and I found myself wanting them to win, which they did :whoo:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2014)

Yep. Another who will support England in any sport.


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## Slime (Jun 12, 2014)

I've just driven past my local pub and it is absolutely covered in flags, fabulous.


*Slime*.


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## richy (Jun 14, 2014)

According to reports on SSN, Welbeck looks set to start.

I hope I'm wrong about how poor he is, I just think there's 2/3 players that should start before him


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

Rumours are that Lallana misses out for Welbeck. Maybe I'm biased, but if anyone deserved a starting spot from the likely candidates it was him based on the friendlies. Wonder if he starts more once he's a Liverpool payer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Rumours are that Lallana misses out for Welbeck. Maybe I'm biased, but if anyone deserved a starting spot from the likely candidates it was him based on the friendlies. Wonder if he starts more once he's a Liverpool payer?
		
Click to expand...


So dropped a creative player for a cart horse - that's Woy.


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## Beezerk (Jun 14, 2014)

Sterling as number 10, didn't see that coming.
Then again had a few for the cause already :cheers:


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## richy (Jun 14, 2014)

Nothing official yet though


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

richy said:



			Nothing official yet though
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he's done a bobby Robson and got confused and just said both their names as wasn't sure who's who!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Welbeck makes sense but I still don't rate him. Shocking first touch. Praying for a Costa Rica equaliser at the moment


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## richy (Jun 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Welbeck makes sense but I still don't rate him. Shocking first touch. Praying for a Costa Rica equaliser at the moment
		
Click to expand...

How does he make sense? Not even half the player llalana is on the ball


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

richy said:



			How does he make sense? Not even half the player llalana is on the ball
		
Click to expand...

Agreed! Think we're giving Italy too much respect.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

The power of the Homer prayer. Now for the mighty Ricans to hold on


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The power of the Homer prayer. Now for the mighty Ricans to hold on
		
Click to expand...

I do hope you're prays are now for England!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I do hope you're prays are now for England!
		
Click to expand...

Yep, turning all the Homer magic towards bashing the spaghetti munchers. Don't Uruguay look ordinary without Suarez and I'm starting to get nervous about England v Costa Rica now. Lets stuff Italy first


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## Birchy (Jun 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Yep, turning all the Homer magic towards bashing the spaghetti munchers. Don't Uruguay look ordinary without Suarez and I'm starting to get nervous about England v Costa Rica now. Lets stuff Italy first
		
Click to expand...

Uruguay are ordinary full stop, said that all along but too many people pie eyed over them for some unknown reason.

Im more nervous about us playing Costa rica than the other two especially after this. They seem quick and fearless which will mean a very uncomfortable game for us.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Uruguay are ordinary full stop, said that all along but too many people pie eyed over them for some unknown reason.

Im more nervous about us playing Costa rica than the other two especially after this. They seem quick and fearless which will mean a very uncomfortable game for us.
		
Click to expand...

I agree totally


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

BBC have the England team as 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Sterling
Wellbeck

Rooney
Sturridge


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

As expected. I hope someone gives them the Uruguay result and we can get cracking


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## IainP (Jun 14, 2014)

Goals in every game so far, and no draws. Will it continue?


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## richy (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			BBC have the England team as 

Hart

Johnson
Cahill
Jagelkia
Baines

Gerrard
Henderson
Sterling
Wellbeck

Rooney
Sturridge
		
Click to expand...

What has Llalana done wrong?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

richy said:



			What has Llalana done wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Be too creative ?


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## Birchy (Jun 14, 2014)

I think Roy has tried to play Welbeck for tactical reasons i just hope it doesnt backfire.

Im sure Lallana will be needed second half as midfield will be a tough place tonight with the heat as well.


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## guest100718 (Jun 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Yep, turning all the Homer magic towards bashing the spaghetti munchers. Don't Uruguay look ordinary without Suarez and I'm starting to get nervous about England v Costa Rica now. Lets stuff Italy first
		
Click to expand...

Uraguay are ordinary with Suarez.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I think Roy has tried to play Welbeck for tactical reasons i just hope it doesnt backfire.

Im sure Lallana will be needed second half as midfield will be a tough place tonight with the heat as well.
		
Click to expand...


Going to sit deeper and use the pace of Sterling on the break - that could play into Italy's hands by giving Pirlo time and space


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Uraguay are ordinary with Suarez.
		
Click to expand...

Last two international Tournaments for Uruguay with Suarez - WC 2010 - Semi Finalists , Copa America 2012 - Winners - yep ordinary


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## Birchy (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Going to sit deeper and use the pace of Sterling on the break - that could play into Italy's hands by giving Pirlo time and space
		
Click to expand...

Rumours ive heard are Welbeck is in to get in and around Pirlo. If he can swamp him that will go a long way to stopping them imo. It could end up being another Hodgson balls up though lol.


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## paddyc (Jun 14, 2014)

Right this is it, COME ON ENGLAND!


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

richy said:



			What has Llalana done wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Not signed for Liverpool!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Not signed for Liverpool!
		
Click to expand...


Don't think it mattered what club he plays for


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 14, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Not signed for Liverpool!
		
Click to expand...

Can't argue, to be fair.

Also, if Welbeck played for Villa, would he be in - doubt it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

I think this is the big one. Get a win today and we'll win the group. Even a draw will be fine. I do think sitting deep is just asking for pressure and we aren't good enough defensively to park a bus at this level


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't think it mattered what club he plays for
		
Click to expand...

Well i do, not in comparison to sterling. He warrants a place. But as has since been mentioned. Welbeck wouldn't be on if he played for saints for example.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 14, 2014)

Is it me or does it seem like the neutrals in the stadium are supporting Italy?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Is it me or does it seem like the neutrals in the stadium are supporting Italy?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they've not got over Hodgson saying he didn't want to go there?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Neville makes Townsend sound knowledgable. Worse than Michael Owen


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Neville makes Townsend sound knowledgable. Worse than Michael Owen
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, says too much and not much of any note.

ITV beckons.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Agreed, says too much and not much of any note.

ITV beckons.
		
Click to expand...

BT Sport is too good for him. Total crap


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## richy (Jun 14, 2014)

Gerrard has be awful


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 14, 2014)

I'd swap Rooney and Gerard to the other side of the pitch, for Henderson and welbeck. Baines is getting no help over there, or they are too sluggish. Either that or go 4-3-3' as apart from the goal Rooney is lost.


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## chrisd (Jun 14, 2014)

I'm no lover of Welbeck but he's done pretty well in the first half. Great finish by Sturridge


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 14, 2014)

Rooney doesn't fit into this England set up and can't see him doing his midfield role properly all match. I think he needs to either play up front or play someone who can do the hard yards


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Is it me or does it seem like the neutrals in the stadium are supporting Italy?
		
Click to expand...

I wonder why that is

England look good, nice shape to the team.
Wellbeck quite superb.


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## Birchy (Jun 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I wonder why that is*

England look good, nice shape to the team.
Wellbeck quite superb.
		
Click to expand...

A load of Scots bought tickets thinking miracles do happen?


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 15, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			BT Sport is too good for him. Total crap
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he can take Alan "the third Mitchell brother" Shearer with him, as insightful as Peggy.


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## c1973 (Jun 15, 2014)

Nice football from England, look vulnerable on the left though.


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## pokerjoke (Jun 15, 2014)

Too hot for us,tired legs and minds.
Looks like we have ran out of ideas.


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

Rooney and gerrard were awful. No way would they be taken off


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## fundy (Jun 15, 2014)

richy said:



			Rooney and gerrard were awful. No way would they be taken off
		
Click to expand...

Rooney on the left just wrong in every way, either play him up top or leave him out . Gerrard past his best too for me and personally id leave them both out and let the "kids" have a go next game against Uruguay - never gonna happen tho


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2014)

What an overpaid meathead!


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## MadAdey (Jun 15, 2014)

We saw why we aren't good enough to win a big tournament, give away easy goals and when we had a good chance we miss the target. The top teams do not give many good chances away so when a player like Rooney is Infront of goal with a chance to score, missing target is not good enough. 

The first goal was a well worked corner, that we did not react to quickly enough. The second goal was just far too easy, Baines got isolated and it was too easy to puta cross in. Then ballotelli finds himself with a free header that he sticks away, BTW it was still not easy to score. 

But plenty of positives to take away and I thought Sterling had a really good game.


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## quinn (Jun 15, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			We saw why we aren't good enough to win a big tournament, give away easy goals and when we had a good chance we miss the target. The top teams do not give many good chances away so when a player like Rooney is Infront of goal with a chance to score, missing target is not good enough. 

The first goal was a well worked corner, that we did not react to quickly enough. The second goal was just far too easy, Baines got isolated and it was too easy to puta cross in. Then ballotelli finds himself with a free header that he sticks away, BTW it was still not easy to score. 

But plenty of positives to take away and I thought Sterling had a really good game.
		
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That's best performance I've seen for a while, not you adey,but there's no pleasing Some england  fans, we scraped out of the group in the euros and the last World Cup by playing awful football, the team got slated, I think we've got a lot to be proud of tonight,got some great young players coming through, look at the players who came on and we've still got the ox to come back, I don't think they're quite ready for this World Cup,but the future looks good, worryingly for an England team though is we can't defend against the better teams, that was always what we were good at, two wins and wer'e out the group, maybe even four points will be enough, don't right us off yet.could be worse, we could be spain


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## MadAdey (Jun 15, 2014)

quinn said:



			That's best performance I've seen for a while, not you adey,but there's no pleasing Some england  fans, we scraped out of the group in the euros and the last World Cup by playing awful football, the team got slated, I think we've got a lot to be proud of tonight,got some great young players coming through, look at the players who came on and we've still got the ox to come back, I don't think they're quite ready for this World Cup,but the future looks good, worryingly for an England team though is we can't defend against the better teams, that was always what we were good at, two wins and wer'e out the group, maybe even four points will be enough, don't right us off yet.could be worse, we could be spain
		
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Not writing us off and I agree it was a good performance. Just a shame that one piece of bad defending and a great chance missed has cost us getting something from the game. 

I was happy to see Woy deploying positive tactics and giving players like Sterling a chance to show what he can do. Sturridge looked sharp and so did Welbeck. Not overly impressed with the subs that came on though, they had fresh legs and did not do a lot. Barkley looked good for about the first 5 mins he was on then looked off the pace.

but hey, role on the Uruguay game and let's try similar tactics again, I would prefer to see England go out trying to win games rather than sitting back playing cheap football and still loosing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

Certainly a lot more positives to take from that game for England 

Sterling was very good , Henderson again had a good game , Welbecks work rate was very good

Gerrard tired badly after 60 mins and should have been replaced , Rooney - well just anonymous and then blew his chance.

England just sat a bit too deep for the first half and there was the normal Hodgson 30 yard gap between 10 players and Sturridge but Sterling and Welbeck started to fill that gap a lot more.

It's certainly a lot more encouraging performance from England and good to see them try and break out a little 

Tough struggle now. Need to sort out the Rooney dilemma


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## chrisd (Jun 15, 2014)

Overall, not a bad performance. Rooney was weak and I'd leave him out, Welbeck exceeded expectations. I liked the two centre backs and Sterling was top notch and Sturridge took his goal really well. It's certainly going to be a tough ask to get out of the group now, especially after seeing the other teams in action. Altogether there us hope for these younger players in the future so long as their allowed to play open attacking football, I'd keep playing them and see how the gel for the Euro's.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2014)

Great match and well played both sides.
Good to see a young England team trying to win matches instead of their normal 'trying not to lose'.

More of the same in the next two matches should see them qualify.
Costa may be a stumbling block though, everyone seemed to think that they were making up the numbers but they have decent players.


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## quinn (Jun 15, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Great match and well played both sides.
Good to see a young England team trying to win matches instead of their normal 'trying not to lose'.

More of the same in the next two matches should see them qualify.
Costa may be a stumbling block though, everyone seemed to think that they were making up the numbersd but they have decent players.
		
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The best we've played for a while, still think a win and a draw will see us get out the group, few problems for Roy to solve but some encouraging performances from the young players, our pace will cause any team problems, not sure what to do with Rooney but it's not a bad problem to have is it,


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## Papas1982 (Jun 15, 2014)

Just had a rewatch.
Sterling superb!!
Rooney, obvious scapegoat. Did he miss an open goal. or just the one he put wide?

Hart, shakey start but no costly errors.
Baines, showed how lucky we were to have Cole. Didn't get much cover, but did he stop one single cross?
Jags/Cahill steady, too exposed.
Johnson, typical johnson. Usefull going forward but leaves gaps.
Gerrard, tired towards end. Should have been subbed instead of Henderson.
Henderson, lots of running, maybe a bit more composure needed for final ball but good game.
Sterling, *SUPERB! *The only player who looked to attack at every opportunity.
Rooney, Great assist (bettered by sterlings pass), missed a chance as did others. Needs to play centrally or not at all.
Wellbeck, good running and worked hard. Needs to be more direct, too many sideways and backward passes.
Sturridge, Good tap in. PLayed well generally but fell into the Rooney trap of dropping deep meaning that runners didn't always have an option in th box.

Wilshere, biggest let down for england in years. Why he was first sub is beyond me.
Barkley, good start. Seemed to be trying a bit too hard, but at least looked to be direct.
Lallana, same as Barkley really. Clearly a better option on the left though as Baines improved with him there.

Overall I'd drop rooney for Lallana as Sterling deserves a 2nd game in the hole on that performance. 

Positives for sure, but still gutted we made an ordinary Italy look good. 3/4's of the players used yesterday play possession footy at club level but weren't so good on the ball last night.


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

Just read some of the player ratings online, not sure what match some of these journalists were watching. 

Gerrard was poor all game and the difference between him and Pirlo is huge. I don't know where people get the notion that Glen Johnson is good going forward, he either cuts inside and loses possession or his crosses go out for a goal kick. If you watch the game back you'll see what I mean. 

Rooney was poor but being played out of position so not really his fault. Worrying thing is that Roy said he played "quite well", not sure if he said that to try and defend is idea to of sticking him on the left. Felt a bit sorry for Baines as he was always up against two men. 

Sterling was really good and we need to get him on the ball as much as possible and have him running at players, after watching Uruguay yesterday they are definitely beatable on Thursday. 

I can't take as many positives from the game as others but maybe I'm a pessimist.


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## Piece (Jun 15, 2014)

I'll go against the rest and thought Gerrard had a good game. Composed, efficient and held things together.

Rooney hasn't been world class for a long time - see old separate thread. He was moved to the left because he's played there loads of times for Man U, and more tellingly, when he's played in his favourite no 10 position, he's been rubbish. I'd much rather see Barkley in that position as he's quicker and better on the ball and fits in with the other faster players we have up front.

Baines was exposed as he didn't know where to be when playing with Rooney. He was caught in the wrong place badly for their winner.

I'd like to think in the next game where it should be colder, we play similarly with fast pace, and just tidy up the defending and final balls!

Still positive though unlike other tournaments as I can see how we are trying play.


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## c1973 (Jun 15, 2014)

Very good game, open attacking football from both sides, England very unlucky to be fair, but Italy took their chances and at the top level that is the difference. 

Sturridge and Sterling (especially) your two best players, Wellbeck and Henderson played very well too. Rooney either plays through the middle or sits out imo, he's not effective on the left and Baines was badly exposed in that first half. Gerard tired badly, yet Pirlo was still relatively fresh? 

You did everything but score in the second half and aren't out of it yet. Very big game coming up against Uruguay who I think will be a different prospect with Suarez (if he plays), Costa Rica may not be a walk in the park though.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 15, 2014)

One of the things that England manager's in the past have done wrong is try to accommodate player's by playing them out of position and Hodgson is doing that with Rooney. I don't want to slag Rooney off as I still think he is a good player but he needs to be playing as an out and out striker. It was a great ball for the goal but I can't help thinking he's a square peg in a round hole. My thoughts after last night are that you either drop Sturridge and play Rooney up top or you don't play Rooney, put Sturridge left and Barkley central.


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## G_Mulligan (Jun 15, 2014)

Harsh on Wilshire, he is not a Barkley/Ox type of get the ball and run at defences. He looks after the ball, always available as an out ball to keep possession and can pick a pass if the runs are made. He controlled the game and basically had us camped in the Italy half for the last half an hour. Difficult to pick the killer pass when up against a 414 defence sitting deep.

Overall happy with the style we played but still lacking the technique and quality throughout the team and although Sterling did very well I would swap him with Rooney in the number 10 role or drop Rooney and have him as an option from the bench and play Lallana/Ox out wide.


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## Beezerk (Jun 15, 2014)

Do you think Hodgson has said to Barkley, whatever you do don't get the ball in our half? lol
He was playing like a centre forward and barely got the ball after a while, he should be deeper and picking it up to start moves.
Enjoyed the game and we played very well in patches, we looked dangerous at times which gives me hope for the future.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 15, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Do you think Hodgson has said to Barkley, whatever you do don't get the ball in our half? lol
He was playing like a centre forward and barely got the ball after a while, he should be deeper and picking it up to start moves.
Enjoyed the game and we played very well in patches, we looked dangerous at times which gives me hope for the future.
		
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I think Martinez himself said he tries to stop Barkley getting the ball in his iwn half as he's 50/50 for great run/lose ball. I do think he was high up, but unfortunately that was because italy sat dep so not much space to run into.

Showed intent, but still think sterling will start in hole against Uruguay leaving rooney or lallana on the left.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 15, 2014)

I was up on my feet cheering Stirling's fantastic opening goal after 5 minutes , half way through a conga when number 1 daughter said "its not a goal, hit the side netting".  I was sure it was in

damn replays :0

Thought we played well, looked dangerous but didnt take our chances in the second half.  a good advert for the game, played in the right spirit and enjoyable to watch. 

Still some issues at the back and agree with the comments about Rooney being out of position, but he did provide the goal assist.

Fingers crossed for Uruguay , its a must win, but we certainly have a good chance


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## 6inchcup (Jun 15, 2014)

sack ROONY off he is not good enough and if he cant play in his normal position DON'T put him were he doesn't fit just to play him,he hasnt got the engine to run up and down the wings for 90 mins and was left for dead a few times,young lads did well and we need more young blood in the midfield,my man of the match was SUPER MARIO he was brilliant,they didnt know how to handle him.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2014)

Fairly predictable result - damn, why didn't I trust my thoughts! - but a dew notable positives and negatives.

Great to see the 'new boys' running and starring. Rooney doesn't look comfortable in his role, though hasn't for a year or more! Miss wasn't a 'bad' one but could be expensive. Defence looked a bit fragile, though that's always the case when supporting a team. I don't think Woy gave sufficient/reacted fast enough to counter the Italian strength down the right - though how best to do so is (supposedly) why he's Manager and not me!

Loads of pressure on the next games!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 15, 2014)

Roy should definitely drop Gerrard! He looked out of his depth last night & we have quite a few options for that position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

Crucial decisions for Woy for the next game 

Lallana must start as must Sterling and Sturridge

So the choice he has is either Rooney in the middle behind Sturridge and Sterling and Lallana wide 

Or Wellbeck wide with Sterling in the middle with Lallana wide 

Or the brave choice is Barkley , Sterling and Lallana as a three 

Need creative and attack minded players on the pitch


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Roy should definitely drop Gerrard! He looked out of his depth last night & we have quite a few options for that position.
		
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Like who ? 

Gerrard tired after 60 mins or so but before that he was just solid


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2014)

I thought if we were to lose we may as well lose playing relatively attacking football, which we mostly did.  It's much better to see that than watching us go down by hoofing long balls to Andy Carrol.  We are obviously a class down when it comes to keeping possession and being ruthless when we get to the oppositions penalty area. And we still have the issue where people sometimes just run away from the ball and do not offer a pass to the person who has the ball.  Most of our players just seem scared to take possession if there is an opposition player near by.

However I thought the youngsters did quite well, I'd play Barkley in the next game as he is one player who is not afraid of getting the ball even if he is being marked.  Also possibly Wiltshire as he is the same, but he didn't look 100% on it for me last night. Didn't see a huge amount from Lallana but he wasn't on for long.  

But, and to quote Sir Mix-a-lot, I like big buts, if we keep the nucleus of the team together, also apparently there's a right back from Southampton who will be very good, and Luke Shaw at left back, in 4 years time we could have a very competitive team.


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## 6inchcup (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Like who ? 

Gerrard tired after 60 mins or so but before that he was just solid
		
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but its a 90 min game the choice is do you start with him then bring him off and replace him or do you bring him on for the last 30 mins,or as we should have done is left him at home along with ROONY and built a team around the players of the future


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			but its a 90 min game the choice is do you start with him then bring him off and replace him or do you bring him on for the last 30 mins,or as we should have done is left him at home along with ROONY and* built a team around the players of the future*

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I think we mostly did.  There's no point just dropping anyone over 25, sending a young exciting but very inexperienced team out there as they will not win that much without *some* experience.  And they may well get disillusioned if they keep getting beat, and then the old problem of wearing an England shirt becoming a burden appears again.   

It's probably Gerrards last major tournament, I hope that Roy has the balls to take him off if he is not performing that well, but his role now seems to be deep lying and the days of his late runs into the box for England are gone.  At least against decent opposition.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Not writing us off and I agree it was a good performance. Just a shame that one piece of bad defending and a great chance missed has cost us getting something from the game.
		
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Or-if-but

If the two shots which hit the woodwork for Italy had gone in you may have lost 4-1


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Like who ? 

Gerrard tired after 60 mins or so but before that he was just solid
		
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He wasn't. Henderson did a better job and should've stayed on the pitch instead of gerrard. Imagine how tired he'd of been if Liverpool had of been in Europe.


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## JCW (Jun 15, 2014)

Played well and a draw would have been a fair result , Rooney on the bench next game as he has never done it and has had more then is fair set of chances and stevie G too as he is a spent force , remember 86 , england played robson and wilkins and change to reid and hoddle and things got better and we need a big guy up front as next game is against a team that dont defend high balls in that well ,


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

richy said:



			He wasn't. Henderson did a better job and should've stayed on the pitch instead of gerrard. *Imagine how tired he'd of been if Liverpool had of been in Europe.*

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Not sure the relevance ? 

Yes Henderson should have stayed on the pitch - they sat too deep and Italy had an easy ball out right all game long with Baines isolated. Need to push higher and get closer to the striker 

Either tell Gerrard to sit and let Henderson to go forward or vice versa - at times they both just sat - Gerrard should have prob had a pen with one burst forward


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

JCW said:



			Played well and a draw would have been a fair result , Rooney on the bench next game as he has never done it and has had more then is fair set of chances and stevie G too as he is a spent force , remember 86 , england played robson and wilkins and change to reid and hoddle and things got better and we need a big guy up front as next game is against a team that dont defend high balls in that well ,
		
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A big guy up front ? Like who ? To just lump high balls up someone - that's just going backwards


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## quinn (Jun 15, 2014)

Drop welbeck, start sterling on the right ( Uruguay left backs suspended) lallana or Barkley on the left and Rooney in behind Sturridge, it's not difficult, at least give Rooney a game where he's used to playing, he'll always create chances,


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure the relevance ?
		
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Not surprised


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

richy said:



			Not surprised
		
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We weren't in Europe last year so what ifs have no relevance


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We weren't in Europe last year so what ifs have no relevance
		
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Gerrard and the rest of the Liverpool players in the England squad played less games yet he was still tired and looked so. If Liverpool were in Europe he would of been even more tired due to the amount of games he'd of played. 

Can't believe you couldn't work that one out for yourself


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

richy said:



			Gerrard and the rest of the Liverpool players in the England squad played less games yet he was still tired and looked so. If Liverpool were in Europe he would of been even more tired due to the amount of games he'd of played. 

Can't believe you couldn't work that one out for yourself
		
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But we weren't in Europe so it's not relevant dealing with "ifs".

He was tiring after 60 plus mins because he has played every game at mid 30's because he is still an important player for both his club and country


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## Beezerk (Jun 15, 2014)

Either way Gerrard should have come off after an hour.


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## Garesfield ACE (Jun 15, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or-if-but

If the two shots which hit the woodwork for Italy had gone in you may have lost 4-1
		
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Or IF Rooney had buried that chance to make it 2-2 (which he should of)........


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 15, 2014)

Now the dust has settled and the hangover cleared, what did I think. I was actually pleased with the performance and definitely 7/10. On the downside I think Rooney has to play upfront or not at all and on last nights showing and the performances of others I'd say not at all in this formation.

Defensively they looked solid aside from that five minutes before half time and arguably a lack of cover on the second goal. Going forward there was some speed and cohesion and Costa Rica proved what I've said for a while that Uruguay just can't cope with that. I'd drop Rooney but I would keep Gerrard although he did struggle in the last 30 minutes and drifted out of it. I hope it was just the heat and humidity as he does need to be a 90 minute player or let a younger pair of legs start.

I do think we'll get a result against Uruguay although they won't be that bad again. A draw and a win in the last game should be enough providing Italy win their own games. If we do go out giving 7/10 performances and I won't be too upset as I saw enough last night to be optimistic for the future


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Either way Gerrard should have come off after an hour.
		
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Yes he should have - no question about that


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## Garesfield ACE (Jun 15, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			One of the things that England manager's in the past have done wrong is try to accommodate player's by playing them out of position and Hodgson is doing that with Rooney. I don't want to slag Rooney off as I still think he is a good player but he needs to be playing as an out and out striker. It was a great ball for the goal but I can't help thinking he's a square peg in a round hole. My thoughts after last night are that you either drop Sturridge and play Rooney up top or you don't play Rooney, put Sturridge left and Barkley central.
		
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Drop Sturridge???   NO CHANCE....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			One of the things that England manager's in the past have done wrong is try to accommodate player's by playing them out of position and Hodgson is doing that with Rooney. I don't want to slag Rooney off as I still think he is a good player but he needs to be playing as an out and out striker. It was a great ball for the goal but I can't help thinking he's a square peg in a round hole. My thoughts after last night are that you either drop Sturridge and play Rooney up top or you don't play Rooney, put Sturridge left and Barkley central.
		
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Isn't putting Sturridge left playing someone out of position also ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2014)

Good game.  England weren't unlucky but didn't deserve to lose.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 15, 2014)

http://www.thescore.com/news/520074
Oh dear


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## DanFST (Jun 15, 2014)

My god I'm hungover. 

Played well, if we play like that we will get through the group.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 15, 2014)

JCW said:



			Played well and a draw would have been a fair result , Rooney on the bench next game as he has never done it and has had more then is fair set of chances and stevie G too as he is a spent force , remember 86 , england played robson and wilkins and change to reid and hoddle and things got better and we need a big guy up front as next game is against a team that dont defend high balls in that well ,
		
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I kind of hoped tactics had moved on a bit from 'hit the big lad up front'.  Probably works in Division 2 but not at international level nowadays.  Wasn't that our main tactic in the last Euros where we created the square root of chuff all?


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## pokerjoke (Jun 15, 2014)

My opinion on last nights game was we were good,and it was great to see youngsters get 
there chance to show what they can do.
Sterling was fantastic and has a massive future for England.
Roy is brave giving the youngsters a chance in the biggest tournament of them all.
I agree with the people who say we have not got a chance of winning,not just that
we are not good enough,but the weather is just too hot for us.
Imo Rooney has to play but it has to be behind Sturridge or upfront and Sturridge
on the right.
Roy made a mistake putting Rooney out on the left,he absolutely hates it.
I played left midfield for 10 years and you have to be ultra fit as its box to box.
You have to be able to help your fullback and when you break you have to cross the
ball or be on the back post if the ball comes in from the right,Rooney cant defend and
he just isn't as fit as he once was.
Imo Lalana just falls short at this level and needs more friendly international experience,he
could be one for the future.
Gerrard could have been taken off,however I don't think that was ever going to happen.
Its a must win against Uruguay and I really hope Suarez is still injured or I believe we will be out.
Roy has to be brave and make tough decisions,i certainly wouldn't like to be in his shoes,but its
better to go out all guns blazing than out with a whimper.


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## drawboy (Jun 15, 2014)

Overpaid overthere primadonnas.....Cramp, chuffing cramp!! I played Sunday league for 6 years, never had cramp once, maybe had a touch of it after my 5th pint afterwards but only in the wallet. These lot need to leave the comfort blankets and "Bitty" at home and go play football for their country. Pirlo could have played in carpet slippers. Why was he not clattered? Put him up in the air and we could have had a chance but we let him dominate the pace of the game. Come home you useless bunch of halfwitts, why drag it out another week, get the tail between the legs and crawl back to your cushy Chesire lifestyles.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

drawboy said:



			Overpaid overthere primadonnas.....Cramp, chuffing cramp!! I played Sunday league for 6 years, never had cramp once, maybe had a touch of it after my 5th pint afterwards but only in the wallet. These lot need to leave the comfort blankets and "Bitty" at home and go play football for their country. Pirlo could have played in carpet slippers. Why was he not clattered? Put him up in the air and we could have had a chance but we let him dominate the pace of the game. Come home you useless bunch of halfwitts, why drag it out another week, get the tail between the legs and crawl back to your cushy Chesire lifestyles.
		
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Well the weather and atmosphere is a bit different in the amazon jungle to a Sunday league in the UK as well as the pace of the game 

And putting Pirlo "in the air" would prob end up with a red card or at least a yellow to leave someone walking a tightrope !

He needed closing down and someone around him but they sat deep


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## drawboy (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And putting Pirlo "in the air" would prob end up with a red card or at least a yellow to leave someone walking a tightrope !

He needed closing down and someone around him but they sat deep
		
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Granted but he has too much class to be allowed unlimited time on the ball. The bloke never even had to look up before he got the ball, he knew exactly where it was going. Our lot in contrast looked like headless chickens at times. Oh and another thing I doubt that Terry would have allowed their first goal. He would have closed that down. The guy had time to pack himself up for the coach trip to the hotel before he hit that ball...Eveyone stood off him. Cramp!! don't get me started that is for extra time in a 1980's wembly final...ooo, me leg hurts ref, big girls blouses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

drawboy said:



			Granted but he has too much class to be allowed unlimited time on the ball. The bloke never even had to look up before he got the ball, he knew exactly where it was going. Our lot in contrast looked like headless chickens at times. Oh and another thing I doubt that Terry would have allowed their first goal. He would have closed that down. The guy had time to pack himself up for the coach trip to the hotel before he hit that ball...Eveyone stood off him. Cramp!! don't get me started that is for extra time in a 1980's wembly final...ooo, me leg hurts ref, big girls blouses.
		
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England have conceded goals with Terry on the pitch as well 

They had all day long to throw crosses into the box because again we sat off and didn't press and close down

And cramp is going to happen when doing exercise is extreme humid and hot conditions - some of the Italians suffered from it 

It's bloody painful when it happens


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Isn't putting Sturridge left playing someone out of position also ?
		
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Sorry, I meant Sterling


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## richy (Jun 15, 2014)

drawboy said:



			Overpaid overthere primadonnas.....Cramp, chuffing cramp!! I played Sunday league for 6 years, never had cramp once, maybe had a touch of it after my 5th pint afterwards but only in the wallet. These lot need to leave the comfort blankets and "Bitty" at home and go play football for their country. Pirlo could have played in carpet slippers. Why was he not clattered? Put him up in the air and we could have had a chance but we let him dominate the pace of the game. Come home you useless bunch of halfwitts, why drag it out another week, get the tail between the legs and crawl back to your cushy Chesire lifestyles.
		
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Sunday league and the World Cup in Brazil are exactly the same. Well spotted


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 15, 2014)

Garesfield ACE said:



			Drop Sturridge???   NO CHANCE....
		
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I wasn't suggesting that's what we should do, just that is what you'd have to do to get Rooney in his right position. Dropping Rooney would be my choice of the options I proposed


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 15, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Sorry, I meant Sterling
		
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:thup:

That makes sense now and think you are right as well


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## drawboy (Jun 15, 2014)

richy said:



			Sunday league and the World Cup in Brazil are exactly the same. Well spotted
		
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Richy, I know that the comparisson is a bit silly but these are young guys who do not work for a living. They play football and are supposed to be fit. I do not expect England to win every game. Italy are/were top class players and a handful for anyone. I didn't hold out much hope. I expect better from them for the remaning group matches where we may have a better chance playing European structured football against the more flambouyant South American style. Time will tell though


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## MadAdey (Jun 15, 2014)

drawboy said:



			Richy, I know that the comparisson is a bit silly but these are young guys who do not work for a living. They play football and are supposed to be fit.
		
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Do you know that one of the cUses of cramps is dehydration? So playing in 75% humidity, you are going to have payers cramping up. Cramps are not really related to fitness.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 15, 2014)

I was surprised that none of the Italians seemed to suffer from cramp and yet we looked the stronger side in the last fifteen minutes. It was a disappointing result and even if we do get knocked out, if we play with that amount of conviction and pace I'll be quite happy


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2014)

Garesfield ACE said:



			Or IF Rooney had buried that chance to make it 2-2 (which he should of)........
		
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I think you missed my point!

What if Sir Geoff Hursts  parents had never met?

Is that clearer.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 15, 2014)

Roy seems to have won a few people over. 
I'm not expecting any big changes for the next game,Welbeck played well as did sterling. The 2 players that didn't play well (Rooney & Gerrard) won't get dropped.


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## paddyc (Jun 19, 2014)

Come on boys this is the big one.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Some of the Uruguay players look to have been hitting the gym hard.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

Not keeping the ball well again. England of old. Not feeling the vibe and have a bad feeling. That or its the tikka masala


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## paddyc (Jun 19, 2014)

How was that not a second yellow and off for Godin's blatant foul on Sturridge. Outrageous!


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## Captainron (Jun 19, 2014)

They're coming home, they're coming home, they're coming, England are coming home.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Oops.

But at least phil will be happy.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Bring Lampard on then we can lose again with the same old failures


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

We're crap


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## c1973 (Jun 19, 2014)

Good goal that, he took it well.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Oops.

But at least phil will be happy.
		
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I may not support England but i dont cheer against them or want them to lose.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I may not support England but i dont cheer against them or want them to lose.
		
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May be I should have put a smilie on that? I just don't tend to use them much.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			May be I should have put a smilie on that? I just don't tend to use them much.
		
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No worries Murph - England are doign ok - but just dont have that creative edge


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No worries Murph - England are doign ok - but just dont have that creative edge
		
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It's about where they are really. Obviously, being an arsenal fan, they miss Walcott and chamberlain! It's still a pity that Ramsey and Bale came out for Wales. We could use players like that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			It's about where they are really. Obviously, being an arsenal fan, they miss Walcott and chamberlain! It's still a pity that Ramsey and Bale came out for Wales. We could use players like that.
		
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Walcott would be great with Sterling the other side - would like to see Ox develop more in the middle as a CM


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

Wonder how gerrard feels playing against the dirty stinkin cheat as oppose to with him


Henderson not good enough for England


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## Stuart_C (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I may not support England but* i dont cheer against them or want them to lose.*

Click to expand...


Why not?:smirk:

It was a cracking goal to be fair.

Midfield is way too deep and Welbeck is crap.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 19, 2014)

One word. Boring.

its agame made for some creativity in the middle of the park. wilshire. And welbe k get a bath and put mr. Barkley on.

PS Stevie stop picking the ball up 5yd in front of your two centre half sand get in there half looking for it.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Wonder how gerrard feels playing against the dirty stinkin cheat as oppose to with him


Henderson not good enough for England
		
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Henderson is not good enough for Dagenham and Redbridge.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Wonder how gerrard feels playing against the dirty stinkin cheat as oppose to with him


Henderson not good enough for England
		
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Has Suarez cheating in this match ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

This has 2-0 all over it


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has Suarez cheating in this match ?
		
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Didn't say he had but there is plenty of time 

His diving knee is still recovering from the op


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Long range shots not really troubling their goal keeper.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

Totally out of ideas now. Look like the same old England. What happened to all this youth and pace? Too many ineffective flicks and no urgency


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

Population of Uruguay 3.25mil wow


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has Suarez cheating in this match ?
		
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Starting to go down a bit easy now


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Population of Uruguay 3.25mil wow
		
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That's what I thought. Smaller than Scotland.


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Rooney.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

As a nation, we don't dive well.

Owen excepted, obviously.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

Need to make use of this momentum right now


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

Taxi for England


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## GreiginFife (Jun 19, 2014)

Suarez... tak a boo son.


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## USER1999 (Jun 19, 2014)

Oops. Again.


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## freddielong (Jun 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			That's what I thought. Smaller than Scotland.
		
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It is crazy how is it we have 10x the population and we have to take players like Ricky Lambert and they don't


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## Stuart_C (Jun 19, 2014)

Hopefully now The FA will get rid of Mr Hodgson and replace him with a proper manager.

Well Done Luis Suarez:whoo::cheers:


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## c1973 (Jun 19, 2014)

Not too much between the teams. Main difference is they had a world class finisher and England didn't. Difficult to see you progressing now.


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## Val (Jun 19, 2014)

Good game this one, 2 too class finishes by Suarez


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## Sponge1980 (Jun 19, 2014)

Good to see Scotland represented. 








(Sorry, couldn't resist)


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## Beezerk (Jun 19, 2014)

***Breaking News***

England revert back to tried and tested but fail gallantly!
Sorry but Gerrard = useless these days!


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## Khamelion (Jun 19, 2014)

What a load of rubbish!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

What do the FA do now -

Has a chance to start from fresh with a new young manager with exciting young players to build a team around.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Take all the young players there and played the golden generation again , Stevie G , Lampard, Rooney . Baines , Phil jag  all of whom will not play the next world club and the manager who lets face it is scared to play the young players , they just proven losers this lot and notink ventured notink gain , ..................just build everyones hopes and then play the same old rubbish


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## Papas1982 (Jun 19, 2014)

freddielong said:



			It is crazy how is it we have 10x the population and we have to take players like Ricky Lambert and they don't
		
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His record stands up against forlans record in England. Plenty of big name players that deserve to be mocked before lambert IMOIMO


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

They didnt play that badly at all - just need to find a creative edge , final delivery just needs to be much better


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## DCB (Jun 19, 2014)

Sponge1980 said:



			Good to see Scotland represented. 








(Sorry, couldn't resist)
		
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Thought I had seen someone with a "see you jimmy" hat and saltire dancing away......... classic :lol:


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## Piece (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They didnt play that badly at all - just need to find a creative edge , final delivery just needs to be much better
		
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Our movement upfront and wide needs to be better. Currently it's too easy to defend against.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They didnt play that badly at all - just need to find a creative edge , final delivery just needs to be much better
		
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Wonder when you was going to post , they have the players , they sat on the bench , Roy is safety 1st football , picks a side to play displine stuff and dont lose , its only when the young players came on did they play quicker ..............Costa Rica will beat them and Roy and the golden generation can be put out to grass for good


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## Stuart_C (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They didnt play that badly at all - just need to find a creative edge , final delivery just needs to be much better
		
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Correct, they where too deep at times with the ball and so slow moving forward.
The passing has got to be quicker and the movement has got to be better.

Uruguay made 4/5 changes tonight yet the manager sticks with the same team that lost.

The book stops with Mr Hodgson.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

Piece said:



			Our movement upfront and wide needs to be better. Currently it's too easy to defend against.
		
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Welbeck works hard but has the same movement as Carlton Palmer - Rooney again runs around and works hard but just doesnt seem to have that vision on the ball - need to look at the creative three behind.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			His record stands up against forlans record in England. Plenty of big name players that deserve to be mocked before lambert IMOIMO
		
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But Forlan was pants in England


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## Papas1982 (Jun 19, 2014)

JCW said:



			Wonder when you was going to post , they have the players , they sat on the bench , Roy is safety 1st football , picks a side to play displine stuff and dont lose , its only when the young players came on did they play quicker ..............Costa Rica will beat them and Roy and the golden generation can be put out to grass for good
		
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You realise that the golden generation if which you speak only contained Gerrard from the players on the pitch.......


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Welbeck works hard but has the same movement as Carlton Palmer - Rooney again runs around and works hard but just doesnt seem to have that vision on the ball - need to look at the creative three behind.
		
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What's your views on Gerrard's performances?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			His record stands up against forlans record in England. Plenty of big name players that deserve to be mocked before lambert IMOIMO
		
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You cant compare Forlan and Lambert - regardless of what Forlan did in England he is a better striker than Lambert


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## Papas1982 (Jun 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			But Forlan was pants in England

Click to expand...

Good point. Maybe him being an ex playerade me bite. But IMO opinion he earned his chance.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 19, 2014)

Can someone please tell me what our defence was doing all night? So bad it was embarrassing. First the goal by Ballotelli and now tonight. These are Premier League defenders right?


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## richy (Jun 19, 2014)

Worst I've ever seen Gerrard play, needs to retire ASAP. Henderson was good and all those that don't think so, I really question your own football ability and knowledge. Didn't give the ball away, always looked like he wanted it and played the sensible ball.

Hodgson needs to step down, clearly doesn't have the balls to take off big name players when they are under performing


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

richy said:



			Worst I've ever seen Gerrard play, needs to retire ASAP. Henderson was good and all those that don't think so, I really question your own football ability and knowledge. Didn't give the ball away, always looked like he wanted it and played the sensible ball.

Hodgson needs to step down, clearly doesn't have the balls to take off big name players when they are under performing
		
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Agreed. I'm a big fan of Henderson,does the job he's there to do,but won't get many MOTM awards for doing it.


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## Beezerk (Jun 19, 2014)

For the record I thought Henderson was excellent tonight, pressed the ball really well and had an "option" pass most times due to decent vision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			For the record I thought Henderson was excellent tonight, pressed the ball really well and had an "option" pass most times due to decent vision.
		
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He is really maturing as a very good player - gutted for Gerrard tonight. Has had a cracking season but tonight was just  poor


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## chrisd (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			gutted for Gerrard tonight. Has had a cracking season but tonight was just  poor
		
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Not against us he didn't!


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## richy (Jun 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Agreed. I'm a big fan of Henderson,does the job he's there to do,but won't get many MOTM awards for doing it.
		
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You're right he wont but he's not there to win MOTM awards. People who slate him don't understand what he's there for. If he isn't spraying balls around or bursting into the box he isn't doing enough. Shows lack of footballing knowledge


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

richy said:



			You're right he wont but he's not there to win MOTM awards. People who slate him don't understand what he's there for. If he isn't spraying balls around or bursting into the box he isn't doing enough. Shows lack of footballing knowledge
		
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Agree - vastly underrated but not with us


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Not against us he didn't!
		
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Or us
Or Italy
#awkward


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## Piece (Jun 19, 2014)

Probably a lone voice, but thought Gerrard wasn't that bad. Not great admittedly, however I'm not sure what we're expecting from him now that he's playing a deep anchor role?

I'm more worried about the defence, particularly Jag and Johnson. Worryingly poor position play and looked very suspect in both games with the ball over the top.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You cant compare Forlan and Lambert - regardless of what Forlan did in England he is a better striker than Lambert
		
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Phil I can compare who ever I wish. 
My point was simply that I thought there were a lot more candidates to mock than lambert.


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## richy (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is really maturing as a very good player - gutted for Gerrard tonight. Has had a cracking season but tonight was just  poor
		
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It's easy looking good against WBA, Norwich, Newcastle etc but when you're up against world class opposition you have to be at the top of you're game. He isn't anymore.

He will struggle in Europe against top sides


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## Papas1982 (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Agree - vastly underrated but not with us
		
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This season. Not too many Liverpool fans were calling for him to be given time after his first season. Talk of missing the far superior Lucas was a common one I belive.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

Piece said:



			Probably a lone voice, but thought Gerrard wasn't that bad. Not great admittedly, however I'm not sure what we're expecting from him now that he's playing a deep anchor role?

I'm more worried about the defence, particularly Jag and Johnson. Worryingly poor position play and looked very suspect in both games with the ball over the top.
		
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I expected a captains performance.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			You realise that the golden generation if which you speak only contained Gerrard from the players on the pitch.......
		
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So is Rooney , why did he take lampard , is there no other young players that can go even if its for the experience , Stevie G is a spent force and he made him capt so he had to play him , he handed Man city the title and now his handed his team mates the plane tickets home .....................Its like you really fancy this women and have all the tools but never ask her out , you stick with the same method that has got you nowhere for years , be bold and try , no you do an england and play proven world cup losers over and over again , by the time you get round to it she is dating someone else ......................just putting it in another way ..........................same result England are coming home


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

richy said:



			It's easy looking good against WBA, Norwich, Newcastle etc but when you're up against world class opposition you have to be at the top of you're game. He isn't anymore.

He will struggle in Europe against top sides
		
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All depends on what Gerrard people are expecting now - for us last season he just sat deep in the anchor role and just let Henderson do the running whilst he sat deep - making the odd occasional run and putting in set pieces - just provided an experienced head in the middle - next season will need to see him used correctly and paced properly.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 19, 2014)

Gerrard has had 2 poor games, who else played well?

Sterling looked like England's biggest threat tonight but was taken off


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Gerrard has had 2 poor games, who else played well?

Sterling looked like England's biggest threat tonight but was taken off

Click to expand...

Cant understand why Sterling was taken off also - was getting into the right areas and causing trouble.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Gerrard has had 2 poor games, who else played well?

Sterling looked like England's biggest threat tonight but was taken off

Click to expand...

Cahill


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All depends on what Gerrard people are expecting now - for us last season he just sat deep in the anchor role and just let Henderson do the running whilst he sat deep - making the odd occasional run and putting in set pieces - just provided an experienced head in the middle - next season will need to see him used correctly and paced properly.
		
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I know what role he was playing,he just played it extremely poorly in both games. No excuses. 
He was one of several players not good enough.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

JCW said:



			Cahill
		
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Cahill was poor v Italy. Decent game tonight.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 19, 2014)

JCW said:



			Cahill
		
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Cahill played well? The defence was a shambles.


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## Piece (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All depends on what Gerrard people are expecting now - for us last season he just sat deep in the anchor role and just let Henderson do the running whilst he sat deep - making the odd occasional run and putting in set pieces - just provided an experienced head in the middle - next season will need to see him used correctly and paced properly.
		
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Exactly right.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Cahill played well? The defence was a shambles.
		
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No communication between Cahill and Jagelkia - Suarez just picked gaps between them


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No communication between Cahill and Jagelkia - Suarez just picked gaps between them
		
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Very true. 
no point having all that attacking talent if you have no defence to build from.


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## Piece (Jun 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Cahill was poor v Italy. Decent game tonight.
		
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Errr, no.


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## JCW (Jun 19, 2014)

Its like this with England , you got a guy that has been in the club for years , scored a few goals years ago , now in the 2nd team you got a young player scoring goals for fun and come the big games the manager plays the old guy over and over in the hope he comes good , never learn


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

Not even sure we can beat Costa Rica with that side


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Very true. 
no point having all that attacking talent if you have no defence to build from.
		
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Need to find some young CB's - even though i think Cahill is very good - maybe the level is a bit too much for Jagelkia


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not even sure we can beat Costa Rica with that side
		
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I'm not overly confident either. Drop gerrard,Baines,Johnson & see what happens.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Need to find some young CB's - even though i think Cahill is very good - maybe the level is a bit too much for Jagelkia
		
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I always like Jag as a squad player as he's versatile. He shouldn't be making the starting 11.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2014)

Might as well go out all guns blazing with yoof. Drop Gerrard, drop Rooney and see what happens


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## Piece (Jun 19, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I always like Jag as a squad player as he's versatile. He shouldn't be making the starting 11.
		
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He was far better as a midfielder. Always caused us problems!


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## garyinderry (Jun 19, 2014)

pop a fit ox, theo and Andros townsend into that team/squad and England would have options. 

Danny Welbeck always flatters to deceive.  full of hustle and bustle but absolutely no end product. im not even sure he knows what he doing out there.  that run up the wing he did tonight was him in a nutshell.  passes the defender then his football brain gets stuck in reverse.    waste of space!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			pop a fit ox, theo and *Andros townsend* into that team/squad and England would have options. 

Danny Welbeck always flatters to deceive.  full of hustle and bustle but absolutely no end product. im not even sure he knows what he doing out there.  that run up the wing he did tonight was him in a nutshell.  passes the defender then his football brain gets stuck in reverse.    waste of space!
		
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Agree on Oxlade and Walcott but Townsend definate no - had a short little burst but is nowhere near good enough imo one trick pony.


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## garyinderry (Jun 19, 2014)

I like the look of him.  direct and with that burst of pace, he could be useful in a knockout situation like the euros and world cup. 


he doesn't need to start, but he would be a nice option to come off the bench.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 19, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			I like the look of him.  direct and with that burst of pace, he could be useful in a knockout situation like the euros and world cup. 


he doesn't need to start, but he would be a nice option to come off the bench.
		
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Yeah maybe in a squad - prob as cover for Walcott when he is injured 

Certainlay have some options to look at there


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 19, 2014)

Can't believe lampard wasn't playing, nonsense leaving out the old guard for these youngsters....


:whoo: :whoo: :whoo:


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 19, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Can't believe lampard wasn't playing, nonsense leaving out the old guard for these youngsters....


:whoo: :whoo: :whoo:
		
Click to expand...


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## evahakool (Jun 19, 2014)

Very disappointed with tonight's performance , the Italy game gave me some encouragement with what I thought was a good performance with some good attacking play with pace and some slick passing. But tonight was back to the same old England very slow build up with no real pace and some woefull passing.

Hope Roy drops Gerrard ,Wellbeck, Johnson,Henderson who played well but IMO we have better players than him, and give the younger players a chance with a eye to the future.

I think Rooney still has a role to play with England but wouldn't play him in the game against Costa Rica.

Feel a bit sad for Gerrard to finish his England career on such a low point as he's been a great player for England.


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'm not overly confident either. Drop gerrard,Baines,Johnson & see what happens.
		
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Can't argue with this although I'd be adding Welbeck to this list. I can see it now though, Italy beat CR and Roy goes with tried and failed yet again to try and win their last game.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Being honest Uruguay weren't any better than they were against Costa Rica, it's just we were worse. They only had 2 shots on target and scored them both. We had better chances and if we'd of taken them we'd of won.


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Being honest Uruguay weren't any better than they were against Costa Rica, it's just we were worse. They only had 2 shots on target and scored them both. We had better chances and if we'd of taken them we'd of won.
		
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Yeah but the team had a different vibe last night, not quite sure what made such a difference from the Italy game.


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## Slab (Jun 20, 2014)

When Gerrard said with the score at 1-1 _"maybe we should have been more experienced"_ 

_"At 1-1 as a team we sort of went for the second goal and maybe we should have been more experienced and gone for the draw"._

Is it out of context or is he having a go at team selection/inclusion of the younger players in the squad? Or did they perhaps not take direction from him during this phase of the game?

As team captain & with three major tournaments behind him surely he couldn't be talking about his own contribution being due to inexperience 

What do others think he meant!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 20, 2014)

Slab said:



			When Gerrard said with the score at 1-1 _"maybe we should have been more experienced"_ 

_"At 1-1 as a team we sort of went for the second goal and maybe we should have been more experienced and gone for the draw"._

Is it out of context or is he having a go at team selection/inclusion of the younger players in the squad? Or did they perhaps not take direction from him during this phase of the game?

As team captain & with three major tournaments behind him surely he couldn't be talking about his own contribution being due to inexperience 

What do others think he meant!
		
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What England were doing at 1-1 was fine and in truth, Uruguay looked rattled, what you can't account for is schoolboy defending.


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## Dodger (Jun 20, 2014)

I watched the game in the Augustiner Keller Munich and really enjoyed the rendition of Football is coming Home.

Great to watch, Gerrard and Henderson were dreadful.


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## guest100718 (Jun 20, 2014)

Another World cup where Englands big players have failed to show up. Is Gerrard calling it a day after this? I hope so.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I watched the game in the Augustiner Keller Munich and really enjoyed the rendition of Football is coming Home.

Great to watch, Gerrard and Henderson were dreadful.
		
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Gerrard yes, Henderson no


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Yeah but the team had a different vibe last night, not quite sure what made such a difference from the Italy game.
		
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Because they knew they had to win and couldn't handle the pressure. They honestly looked scared and only started to play mid way through the second half


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

Last time England played any good in a world cup was in 1990 and 96 in the Euros , did ok in 2006 then the golden generation took over and we kept playing Lampard with Steven G , never worked , now for the 1st time in years we have a great bunch of young players , we are still playing these guys that have failed badly for years , after this WC we should have a clear out , young manager , young players , Rooney and co , thank you very much but you not needed no more as we know what you can do and its time to move on ....................EYG


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## guest100718 (Jun 20, 2014)

Still at least gerrard won a "double", losing the league for liverpool and getting England knocked out of the World Cup.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			Last time England played any good in a world cup was in 1990 and 96 in the Euros , did ok in 2006 then the golden generation took over and we kept playing Lampard with Steven G , never worked , now for the 1st time in years we have a great bunch of young players , we are still playing these guys that have failed badly for years , after this WC we should have a clear out , young manager , young players , Rooney and co , thank you very much but you not needed no more as we know what you can do and its time to move on ....................EYG
		
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What about 1998?


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

The one thing I've never understood with all the England managers I can remember from back when I started having an interest in football, is that no matter who they have been they have always picked players from the top league.

The England team always seemed to come from teams in the top half of the top league regardless of whether the player concerned was playing well or not. 

Just because he is a house hold name, or advertises various hair, phone, pizza, soft drink products should not automatically make them a shoe in for the team.

Why not look at the lower leagues, I'm not saying picking someone from the conference is a good idea, but then why not, if he has a football brain, is fit enough and can kick a ball why shouldn't he be given a shout.

Picking players time and again has proven to be disastrous and what gives the players the right to question why they have not been picked, or the media to question that as well? Is the media that picks the team? 

Sadly the England manager will be replaced, more than likely and we'll get a new manager with promises of radical changes and a new broom sweeping clean. Alas, it will be just lip service to the masses to placate us in the run up to the next embarrassing tournament.

Until such time the old guard of the team is told, thank you for you service now here's you pipe and slippers, try not to break a hip on the way to the tea dance, and that goes for the players, management and the FA selectors who choose the manager. England will quietly slip into obscurity to talked about along side the likes of Iran, Honduras, San Marino.


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The one thing I've never understood with all the England managers I can remember from back when I started having an interest in football, is that no matter who they have been they have always picked players from the top league.

The England team always seemed to come from teams in the top half of the top league regardless of whether the player concerned was playing well or not. 

Just because he is a house hold name, or advertises various hair, phone, pizza, soft drink products should not automatically make them a shoe in for the team.

Why not look at the lower leagues, I'm not saying picking someone from the conference is a good idea, but then why not, if he has a football brain, is fit enough and can kick a ball why shouldn't he be given a shout.

Picking players time and again has proven to be disastrous and what gives the players the right to question why they have not been picked, or the media to question that as well? Is the media that picks the team? 

Sadly the England manager will be replaced, more than likely and we'll get a new manager with promises of radical changes and a new broom sweeping clean. Alas, it will be just lip service to the masses to placate us in the run up to the next embarrassing tournament.

Until such time the old guard of the team is told, thank you for you service now here's you pipe and slippers, try not to break a hip on the way to the tea dance, and that goes for the players, management and the FA selectors who choose the manager. England will quietly slip into obscurity to talked about along side the likes of Iran, Honduras, San Marino.
		
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Well said , jobs for the boys comes to mind , the old guard keep playing and the young talent looks on , same with cricket , you have to be in your late 20`s to get in , India gave sachin his debut at 17 , we dont do that and it be 2066 before England win again


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## Slab (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The one thing I've never understood with all the England managers I can remember from back when I started having an interest in football, is that no matter who they have been they have always picked players from the top league.

The England team always seemed to come from teams in the top half of the top league regardless of whether the player concerned was playing well or not. 

Just because he is a house hold name, or advertises various hair, phone, pizza, soft drink products should not automatically make them a shoe in for the team.

Why not look at the lower leagues, I'm not saying picking someone from the conference is a good idea, but then why not, if he has a football brain, is fit enough and can kick a ball why shouldn't he be given a shout.

Picking players time and again has proven to be disastrous and what gives the players the right to question why they have not been picked, or the media to question that as well? Is the media that picks the team? 

Sadly the England manager will be replaced, more than likely and we'll get a new manager with promises of radical changes and a new broom sweeping clean. Alas, it will be just lip service to the masses to placate us in the run up to the next embarrassing tournament.

Until such time the old guard of the team is told, thank you for you service now here's you pipe and slippers, try not to break a hip on the way to the tea dance, and that goes for the players, management and the FA selectors who choose the manager. England will quietly slip into obscurity to talked about along side the likes of Iran, Honduras, San Marino.
		
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I see where you're coming from but couldn't help but recall the Mike Bassett scene:

_Margaret_: Mike, here's the squad list, and I've given copies to the press, like you asked.
_Mike_: Ah, well done, Margaret, thank you... hey, hang on a minute! There's 28 names here, I only picked 26.
_Margaret_: Well, that was the list you gave me.
_Mike_: Tony Hedges, York City? I didn't pick him, love.
_Margaret_: You must have done, Mike. I wouldn't have put him down, otherwise.
_Mike_: Never heard of him, have I? And who's this clown? Ron Benson, Plymouth Argyle?
_Margaret_: Look, Mike, they were on the list of players that you gave me!
_Mike_: [holding up the cigarette box he wrote the squad list on] Oh, come on, love! Show me where it says "Benson and Hedges" on that. 

:rofl:

So there's Rickie Lambert...     Anyone seen Sheffield United's new signing Andy Butler!


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The one thing I've never understood with all the England managers I can remember from back when I started having an interest in football, is that no matter who they have been they have always picked players from the top league.

The England team always seemed to come from teams in the top half of the top league regardless of whether the player concerned was playing well or not. 

Just because he is a house hold name, or advertises various hair, phone, pizza, soft drink products should not automatically make them a shoe in for the team.

Why not look at the lower leagues, I'm not saying picking someone from the conference is a good idea, but then why not, if he has a football brain, is fit enough and can kick a ball why shouldn't he be given a shout.

Picking players time and again has proven to be disastrous and what gives the players the right to question why they have not been picked, or the media to question that as well? Is the media that picks the team? 

Sadly the England manager will be replaced, more than likely and we'll get a new manager with promises of radical changes and a new broom sweeping clean. Alas, it will be just lip service to the masses to placate us in the run up to the next embarrassing tournament.

Until such time the old guard of the team is told, thank you for you service now here's you pipe and slippers, try not to break a hip on the way to the tea dance, and that goes for the players, management and the FA selectors who choose the manager. England will quietly slip into obscurity to talked about along side the likes of Iran, Honduras, San Marino.
		
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Are you serious? Pick players from lower leagues?

They play in lower leagues because that's the standard they are at. We'd get embarrassed even more if we did that


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Are you serious? Pick players from lower leagues?

They play in lower leagues because that's the standard they are at. We'd get embarrassed even more if we did that
		
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Well Scotland does.  And we may not be that good but we seem to have a good team spirit with the manager and to be developing into something reasonable.  So why not.  Just pick players from Championship down.


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Are you serious? Pick players from lower leagues?

They play in lower leagues because that's the standard they are at. We'd get embarrassed even more if we did that
		
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The England squad always gets picked from the same pool of 40-50 players from the premiership. 

Why?

Why pick the same players over and over when they do not perform?

Why not cast the net further out and bring in good players from lower leagues? 

Do the England management not have a scouting network? Could they not try a player from a Div 2 team in a friendly?

Why do we have to suffer the same old faces under performing game after game?

Until the FA removes it's blinkers, picks a manager with some balls and the where withal to stick two fingers up to the establishment and picks a team he wants not what the media or public want, England will suffer.


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

Who is the next England manager , young one that is , Nigel Clough ?  Tim Sherwood maybe or ????????


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			Who is the next England manager , young one that is , Nigel Clough ?  Tim Sherwood maybe or ????????
		
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Someone who is not a 'Yes' man, someone with his own way of thinking, someone with a backbone.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The England squad always gets picked from the same pool of 40-50 players from the premiership. 

Why?

Why pick the same players over and over when they do not perform?

Why not cast the net further out and bring in good players from lower leagues? 

Do the England management not have a scouting network? Could they not try a player from a Div 2 team in a friendly?

Why do we have to suffer the same old faces under performing game after game?

Until the FA removes it's blinkers, picks a manager with some balls and the where withal to stick two fingers up to the establishment and picks a team he wants not what the media or public want, England will suffer.
		
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Are you for real? Pick players from Div 2, do you mean league 2?

If you think we're poor at the moment wait until we have a team full of players from lower leagues. They won't have the technique or fitness to compete for 90 minutes at international level against world class opposition. 

I know it's poor at the moment but they're the best we have


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Funny ain't it, everyone I've spoken to today has suddenly become the next England manager


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Funny ain't it, everyone I've spoken to today has suddenly become the next England manager 

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Lets face it , how can any of us do any worse , Pick the same old failures over and over again , this world cup England has done worst then any other , Costa Rica will beat us and then maybe things will change , pigs will fly 1st huh


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			Lets face it , how can any of us do any worse , Pick the same old failures over and over again , this world cup England has done worst then any other , Costa Rica will beat us and then maybe things will change , pigs will fly 1st huh
		
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Again, you seem to be getting a bit confused, harping on about the golden generation and the same old failures.  For all his failings, and he has many, Roy picked a relatively new starting 11 containing some young exciting attacking players.  If he'd of picked Lampard and Gerrard in midfield, Cole at left back and Gary Neville at right back then some of your rantings about the golden generation may have had a bit of credibility.  But he did not, he mostly picked players that the majority of press/fans would have picked.  

The simple truth is that we are just not good enough, especially in defense, we are caught between our old style of hoof it and the new style of keeping possession, and do neither well.  And picking Gerrard/Rooney or dropping them would have made sod all difference.  There were plenty of young exciting players that did not step up to the mark last night.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

England have been poor in both games. End of.
As viewed from the missus's eyes who does not follow football, her comment was,"why does no-one pass it to each other". enough said.
From my perspective,said before results, Terry and Cole should have gone, i know issues with Terry,but good centre half.
Baines out of his depth,to soon for him.
I am Jags fan, seen him plenty at the Lane,but to soon for him also.
Hart, comes way to far off his line a lot of the time.To hyped up.
Side was made up of too many second rate Liverpool players,so we got our justs.
Never thought Gerrard's head would be together, after end of prem season.
Sterling will be another John Barnes.
So all in all, after 2 of their most important matches to date, we were outplayed, outthought, and outclassed...
....By the way, it pains me to say it, as i am an England fan,not a non-supporter like some....There is no easy answer, or fix that i can see happening to the way we play for years come..And yes,Hodgson should take a lot of the flak too.Couldn't change things when needed.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			Last time England played any good in a world cup was in 1990 and 96 in the Euros , did ok in 2006 then the golden generation took over and we kept playing Lampard with Steven G , never worked , now for the 1st time in years we have a great bunch of young players , we are still playing these guys that have failed badly for years , after this WC we should have a clear out , young manager , young players , Rooney and co , thank you very much but you not needed no more as we know what you can do and its time to move on ....................EYG
		
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It's a falicy that England played well in 1990.  They struggled to get out of their group, only winning one out of the 3 games and that was 1-0 against Egypt.  We then just beat Belgium in extra time thanks to a wonder goal after being 2nd best for most of the game, scraped past Cameroon thanks to a penalty 7 minutes before the end of the game to bring it to 2-2, then another penalty in extra time. Then we played OK against Germany, but lost our bottle when it came to the penalties.  

All the Gazza crying and nesum dorma kind of make people see it through rose tinted spectacles. We progressed further than we have done in a long time and had a lot of luck, but did not actually play that well.  Plus it was a very poor tournament with very negative football.


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			The England squad always gets picked from the same pool of 40-50 players from the premiership. 

Why?

Why pick the same players over and over when they do not perform?

Why not cast the net further out and bring in good players from lower leagues? 

Do the England management not have a scouting network? Could they not try a player from a Div 2 team in a friendly?

Why do we have to suffer the same old faces under performing game after game?

Until the FA removes it's blinkers, picks a manager with some balls and the where withal to stick two fingers up to the establishment and picks a team he wants not what the media or public want, England will suffer.
		
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The reason the same group of players get picked for the national side because the premier league ifs flooded with foreign players. 

We just don't have enough good English talent coming through or getting the chance at the big clubs because the foreign billionaire owners want the big name foreign players to sell their club and win them trophies. 

Until this and the coaching at grassroots is sorted out by the FA we will never do well in a major tournament.


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

And as for Gerrard, supposed to be a holding midfielder and protect his defence, I can only remember him putting in 1 hard tackle to let the opposition know he's there in 2 games. 

Should do the decent thing and announce his retirement from international football after the World Cup.


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Are you for real? Pick players from Div 2, do you mean league 2?

If you think we're poor at the moment wait until we have a team full of players from lower leagues. They won't have the technique or fitness to compete for 90 minutes at international level against world class opposition. 

I know it's poor at the moment but they're the best we have
		
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Yes I am for real.

If a player is good enough to be in the England squad, he should be given as good a shout as any other player. Why does the selection pool have to be limited to the premiership? 

The England squad are a group of individuals who play infrequently together, the only time they train together is in the run up to tournaments or a couple of days before a friendly. So what makes a group of premiership individuals any different to a group that contains players from the lower leagues?

England has system of playing, which the players have to adopt and learn when the squad gets together, so why not pick some lower league players, even if it is just to train with the team, you might find that one person who is brilliant, you might not.

If you want a cohesive squad that knows each other inside and out, then pick the entire Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Everton, Man U or City team, oh wait a minute you can't as all of those teams barely have one Englishmen in the first team.

The fact that most premiership teams are made up of foreign imports means the pool of premiership players to pick from is quite small, so going back to my point of picking from lower leagues, why not expand the pool of available players rather then limit yourself from the pool of players in the premiership.


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

That's like saying pick a 18 h/c for the Ryder Cup team! 

Most league 2 players are in that league for a reason, the fitness and skill levels compared to a premiership footballer is massive. 

I used to work with a ex pro who played for West Brom and they got Arsenal in a cup game and he said the difference in there fitness and skill was massive, he was marking Vieira and he said he was just chasing his shadow all game.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Yes I am for real.

If a player is good enough to be in the England squad, he should be given as good a shout as any other player. Why does the selection pool have to be limited to the premiership? 

The England squad are a group of individuals who play infrequently together, the only time they train together is in the run up to tournaments or a couple of days before a friendly. So what makes a group of premiership individuals any different to a group that contains players from the lower leagues?

England has system of playing, which the players have to adopt and learn when the squad gets together, so why not pick some lower league players, even if it is just to train with the team, you might find that one person who is brilliant, you might not.

If you want a cohesive squad that knows each other inside and out, then pick the entire Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Everton, Man U or City team, oh wait a minute you can't as all of those teams barely have one Englishmen in the first team.

The fact that most premiership teams are made up of foreign imports means the pool of premiership players to pick from is quite small, so going back to my point of picking from lower leagues, why not expand the pool of available players rather then limit yourself from the pool of players in the premiership.
		
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I think the foreign player argument is tiresome. We've won 1 tournament in our entire history, and that was at home. We're too many foreigners to blame for all the other failures?

i think we needed to do what Germany did a few years back and entirely wrote this one off. For the euro qualifiers I'd not pick anybody over 28. That's not to say you're over the hill at 30. But they need to get a settled group.


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

bozza said:



			That's like saying pick a 18 h/c for the Ryder Cup team! 

*Most* league 2 players are in that league for a reason, the fitness and skill levels compared to a premiership footballer is massive.
		
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You hit the nail on the head, most players are in that league for a reason and I agree with you and others who have put forward that argument, but why limit ourselves to picking the same players when there might be a few players in lower leagues that can do a job for England. Use the scouting network and give others a chance to shine.



Papas1982 said:



			I think the foreign player argument is tiresome.
		
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You're right it is becoming tiresome, but it's not going away and if anything it's getting worse. The dilution of the premiership with foreign players has just about reached saturation point and until something is done about it our national game will not be able to compete with the other major nations, England will just be also rans.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			England have been poor in both games. End of.
As viewed from the missus's eyes who does not follow football, her comment was,"why does no-one pass it to each other". enough said.
From my perspective,said before results, Terry and Cole should have gone, i know issues with Terry,but good centre half.
Baines out of his depth,to soon for him.
I am Jags fan, seen him plenty at the Lane,but to soon for him also.
Hart, comes way to far off his line a lot of the time.To hyped up.
Side was made up of too many second rate Liverpool players,so we got our justs.
Never thought Gerrard's head would be together, after end of prem season.
Sterling will be another John Barnes.
So all in all, after 2 of their most important matches to date, we were outplayed, outthought, and outclassed...
....By the way, it pains me to say it, as i am an England fan,not a non-supporter like some....There is no easy answer, or fix that i can see happening to the way we play for years come..And yes,Hodgson should take a lot of the flak too.Couldn't change things when needed.
		
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I do hope Sterling will be another Barnes


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Yes I am for real.

If a player is good enough to be in the England squad, he should be given as good a shout as any other player. Why does the selection pool have to be limited to the premiership? 

The England squad are a group of individuals who play infrequently together, the only time they train together is in the run up to tournaments or a couple of days before a friendly. So what makes a group of premiership individuals any different to a group that contains players from the lower leagues?

England has system of playing, which the players have to adopt and learn when the squad gets together, so why not pick some lower league players, even if it is just to train with the team, you might find that one person who is brilliant, you might not.

If you want a cohesive squad that knows each other inside and out, then pick the entire Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Everton, Man U or City team, oh wait a minute you can't as all of those teams barely have one Englishmen in the first team.

The fact that most premiership teams are made up of foreign imports means the pool of premiership players to pick from is quite small, so going back to my point of picking from lower leagues, why not expand the pool of available players rather then limit yourself from the pool of players in the premiership.
		
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Sorry but the reason why the players that get picked are from the top teams is because that's where the best English players play 

If a player in the lower divisions is good enough to play at the higher level then he will be spotted and will be picked up by a better club 

The players play in the lower divisions because that's where the level of their talent means they play. 

Can you name a player from the lower divisions that should be in the England squad


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well Scotland does.  And we may not be that good but we seem to have a good team spirit with the manager and to be developing into something reasonable.  So why not.  Just pick players from Championship down.
		
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And Scotland never qualify for a tournament - that's why you don't pick from lower leagues - but well done on the team spirit - do you get a trophy for it


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			Well said , jobs for the boys comes to mind , the old guard keep playing and the young talent looks on , same with cricket , you have to be in your late 20`s to get in , India gave sachin his debut at 17 , we dont do that and it be 2066 before England win again
		
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Root , Ballance , Robson , Stokes , Bairstow , Borthwick , Buttler , Jordan , Finn , 

I'm not sure if you have watched England cricket over the last 10 years at all .


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you name a player from the lower divisions that should be in the England squad
		
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No I cannot, but then I'm not a football scout travelling the country watching games.

You are correct in thinking that if a lower league player is good enough for England the it won't be long before a top club signs him up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			No I cannot, but then I'm not a football scout travelling the country watching games.

You are correct in thinking that if a lower league player is good enough for England the it won't be long before a top club signs him up.
		
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So does that not suggest that if they are good enough they will be playing in the Prem.

The scouting network of clubs is massive - not many slip through the grasps of Prem clubs 

Lower league players play in the lower league because that's how good they are - not international players


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

bozza said:



			And as for Gerrard, supposed to be a holding midfielder and protect his defence, I can only remember him putting in 1 hard tackle to let the opposition know he's there in 2 games. 

Should do the decent thing and announce his retirement from international football after the World Cup.
		
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Makalele was one of the greatest holding players around - he didn't put in "hard tackles"


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does that not suggest that if they are good enough they will be playing in the Prem.
		
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It should, but because the owners of clubs want success and to make more money, then unless the players from lower leagues are exceptional then they will not get a chance to play in the premiership.

Even if a play from a lower league team is good enough, when priced against a player of equal quality and talent from abroad the owner will opt for the cheaper better value for money player. This makes good business sense, but does not make for a better England team.

Which is my point, there will be players in lower leagues who are good enough but they will never play in the premiership because of the economics of the premiership and until the rules governing the English game change this will always be the case.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			You hit the nail on the head, most players are in that league for a reason and I agree with you and others who have put forward that argument, but why limit ourselves to picking the same players when there might be a few players in lower leagues that can do a job for England. Use the scouting network and give others a chance to shine.



You're right it is becoming tiresome, but it's not going away and if anything it's getting worse. The dilution of the premiership with foreign players has just about reached saturation point and until something is done about it our national game will not be able to compete with the other major nations, England will just be also rans.
		
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The English leagues had hardly any foreign players in the 70's and 80's and teams like Liverpool , Villa and Forest where winning European Cups 

For 8 years England didn't even qualify for the WC and then made 2 quarters and a semi. 

Using the too many foreign players masks the real reason why England won't win a tournament - not good enough and poor coaching from grass roots 

In Spain there is 28,000 qualified UEFA coaches - in UK - 2000 ?! 

The grass roots coaching where kids are coached wrong is the problem 

In Spain and Germany kids don't even have goals on the pitch a lot of times 

In England it's all about winning by any means !! That won't get England anywhere


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

bozza said:



			And as for Gerrard, supposed to be a holding midfielder and protect his defence, I can only remember him putting in 1 hard tackle to let the opposition know he's there in 2 games. 

Should do the decent thing and announce his retirement from international football after the World Cup.
		
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Agree with this, late on he should have been sent off for the Gerrard special 2 footer, not seen for a while...He had a chance to nail Suarez earlier on in first half, but he had second thoughts i thinks...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does that not suggest that if they are good enough they will be playing in the Prem.

The scouting network of clubs is massive - not many slip through the grasps of Prem clubs 

Lower league players play in the lower league because that's how good they are - not international players
		
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Fulham had numerous call ups the last time they were in the championship from across the globe and a lot of championship clubs are the same even now. Other countries obviously have no issues. What happens if there is a 20 goal a season midfielder come through into the Championship who happens to be English. Would you not play him because he isn't PL. Sadly we aren't that rich in talent where we can be that choosy anymore. If your good enough, then give them a chance. And you only find out how good they are by playing them


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## Jensen (Jun 20, 2014)

Look we're not good enough plain and simple. Always have been, always will be. I get sick of the England team being billed up and then falling flat.
Technically we are very poor players. No one is happy on the ball, we look to off load the ball quickly like its a hot potatoe. No England player EVER looks comfortable on the ball when they're up against 2 opponents. A lot of players are totally 1 footed and lack basic skills. 
It says it all when a country like Uruguay have the total population of Greater London and they produce better players.
Grass roots teaching is poor right through to FA school teaching. In the 80's we were told by the FA that teaching would improve and a lot of effort would be invested for the future of the game, but no change has been seen.
We are a nation of poor players who are ALL overpaid and sadly believe their own hype.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			It should, but because the owners of clubs want success and to make more money, then unless the players from lower leagues are exceptional then they will not get a chance to play in the premiership.

Even if a play from a lower league team is good enough, when priced against a player of equal quality and talent from abroad the owner will opt for the cheaper better value for money player. This makes good business sense, but does not make for a better England team.

Which is my point, there will be players in lower leagues who are good enough but they will never play in the premiership because of the economics of the premiership and until the rules governing the English game change this will always be the case.
		
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Sorry but that's wrong - if the player is good enough he will be picked and be bought by a top team 

Yes English players are over priced but if they have the ability to play internationally then they will be bought 

Lots of finger pointing and blame towards the Prem clubs 

Again where was the England success before the prem ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fulham had numerous call ups the last time they were in the championship from across the globe and a lot of championship clubs are the same even now. Other countries obviously have no issues. What happens if there is a 20 goal a season midfielder come through into the Championship who happens to be English. Would you not play him because he isn't PL. Sadly we aren't that rich in talent where we can be that choosy anymore. If your good enough, then give them a chance. And you only find out how good they are by playing them
		
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Which countries are they then picking players from the lower leagues ? It won't be the top countries that's for sure 

Scoring 20 goals in the championship isn't a signal for someone to be an international player for a country looking to succeed - if that same person can then score 20 goals against the top players in the country and in Europe then he is. The step up in standard from the Championship to Prem is big. - the step up to Europe is even bigger and then the step up for the top international teams is even bigger -

How many of the top countries have players in their team from anything other than the top league in a country ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2014)

I disagree. I think I'm right in saying Sky said something like 32% of the PL were English born last season. Where do the youngsters go to get a game. They get loaned out. We need to be getting more youngsters getting their chances earlier in the PL or England looking at those already playing regularly in the championship and give them a run. Nothing wrong with call ups during friendly fixtures to get use to the set up and may be a sub appearance here and there to see if they can cut it. Surely that's what they are for


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree. I think I'm right in saying Sky said something like 32% of the PL were English born last season. Where do the youngsters go to get a game. They get loaned out. We need to be getting more youngsters getting their chances earlier in the PL or England looking at those already playing regularly in the championship and give them a run. Nothing wrong with call ups during friendly fixtures to get use to the set up and may be a sub appearance here and there to see if they can cut it. Surely that's what they are for
		
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What exactly are you disagreeing with ? 

If the young players are good enough then they will get their chance

How old is Sterling ? He didn't need to be loaned out - because he is good enough to play prem and international football - same with Barkley , Shaw , Oxlade , Walcott in the past , Stones , Flanagan 

If England look,towards the championship then they don't qualify for any tournament - simple as that.


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Jensen said:



			Look we're not good enough plain and simple. Always have been, always will be. I get sick of the England team being billed up and then falling flat.
Technically we are very poor players. No one is happy on the ball, we look to off load the ball quickly like its a hot potatoe. No England player EVER looks comfortable on the ball when they're up against 2 opponents. A lot of players are totally 1 footed and lack basic skills. 
It says it all when a country like Uruguay have the total population of Greater London and they produce better players.
Grass roots teaching is poor right through to FA school teaching. In the 80's we were told by the FA that teaching would improve and a lot of effort would be invested for the future of the game, but no change has been seen.
We are a nation of poor players who are ALL overpaid and sadly believe their own hype.
		
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Here here.


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree. I think I'm right in saying Sky said something like 32% of the PL were English born last season. Where do the youngsters go to get a game. They get loaned out. We need to be getting more youngsters getting their chances earlier in the PL or England looking at those already playing regularly in the championship and give them a run. Nothing wrong with call ups during friendly fixtures to get use to the set up and may be a sub appearance here and there to see if they can cut it. Surely that's what they are for
		
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Exactly the point I've been making.

If you are good enough to play for your country then no matter what league you are in, give the player a chance. As I and Homer have written surely that is what friendlies are for.

_*If you always do what you have done, you will always get what you have got.*_

And that sums up the England mentality in a nutshell.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Exactly the point I've been making.

If you are good enough to play for your country then no matter what league you are in, give the player a chance. As I and Homer have written surely that is what friendlies are for.

_*If you always do what you have done, you will always get what you have got.*_

And that sums up the England mentality in a nutshell.
		
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And the change that needs to be made isn't downgrading the players you pick but actually looking deeper into the coaching of youngsters in the country. 

Look at all the top countries and look where they pick their players from - the top leagues but their grass roots coaching is far superior.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Jensen said:



			Look we're not good enough plain and simple. Always have been, always will be. I get sick of the England team being billed up and then falling flat.
Technically we are very poor players. No one is happy on the ball, we look to off load the ball quickly like its a hot potatoe. No England player EVER looks comfortable on the ball when they're up against 2 opponents. A lot of players are totally 1 footed and lack basic skills. 
It says it all when a country like Uruguay have the total population of Greater London and they produce better players.
Grass roots teaching is poor right through to FA school teaching. In the 80's we were told by the FA that teaching would improve and a lot of effort would be invested for the future of the game, but no change has been seen.
We are a nation of poor players who are ALL overpaid and sadly believe their own hype.
		
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Well said 

Best thing for England would be to speak to Brendan Rodgers and also look towards people like Nigel Clough - both people who are trying to develop the players the right way


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## fundy (Jun 20, 2014)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=686209501415948

Funny spoof video for those on facebook


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## Khamelion (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the change that needs to be made isn't downgrading the players you pick but actually looking deeper into the coaching of youngsters in the country. 

Look at all the top countries and look where they pick their players from - the top leagues but their grass roots coaching is far superior.
		
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Yup indeed, I agree.

It's okay for us to pick fault with the player selection at present, but unless something changes at grass roots of the game nothing will change at the top.

There are lots of changes that need to be made within the structure of the English game, we do not need the cracks temporarily filled, we need the house demolished and rebuilt from the ground up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

fundy said:



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=686209501415948

Funny spoof video for those on facebook 

Click to expand...

That's very good


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## Marshy77 (Jun 20, 2014)

Jensen said:



			Look we're not good enough plain and simple. Always have been, always will be. I get sick of the England team being billed up and then falling flat.
Technically we are very poor players. No one is happy on the ball, we look to off load the ball quickly like its a hot potatoe. No England player EVER looks comfortable on the ball when they're up against 2 opponents. A lot of players are totally 1 footed and lack basic skills. 
It says it all when a country like Uruguay have the total population of Greater London *and they produce better players.*
Grass roots teaching is poor right through to FA school teaching. In the 80's we were told by the FA that teaching would improve and a lot of effort would be invested for the future of the game, but no change has been seen.
We are a nation of poor players who are ALL overpaid and sadly believe their own hype.
		
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Whilst I agree with pretty much everything, they have produced 1 world class player and another decent striker, the rest of the team are very very similar to ours in that they are pretty average. The difference was Suarez, even half fit he destroyed the 2 chances he was gifted - we didn't take ours. 

The FA needs a huge shake up from the roots to the top, better grass roots coaching, cheaper FA training camps and badges, smaller sided games, less pressure on kids to win and teach the fundimentals and keep teaching the kids the basics throughout there time playing and enjoying football. 

I'd put less money in the game for apprentices/school boy/first pro contracts but that isn't going to happen.


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## Conman85 (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well said 

Best thing for England would be to speak to Brendan Rodgers
		
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Why so he tells them to pick all Liverpool players and they can fail again like they did this world cup?

Face facts they are not good enough and believe there own hype. When it gets tough outwith Rooney know one wants to knuckle down and get dug in. Passing is almost scary to them and teams like the Italians who are far more street wise sit back and let you make your own mistakes. Same old England, but we did this well and we were so close............no you's lost as you simply weren't good enough and creating one chance that you were close with isn't good enough at this level.

Who's going to be your strike force in 2018? I cant think of much goal scoring talent coming through.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Yes I am for real.

If a player is good enough to be in the England squad, he should be given as good a shout as any other player. Why does the selection pool have to be limited to the premiership?
		
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This is hard work. 

There are no players in the lower leagues better than the ones currently in the premiership

Do you watch any lower league games or any football at all for that matter?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Why so he tells them to pick all Liverpool players and they can fail again like they did this world cup?

Face facts they are not good enough and believe there own hype. When it gets tough outwith Rooney know one wants to knuckle down and get dug in. Passing is almost scary to them and teams like the Italians who are far more street wise sit back and let you make your own mistakes. Same old England, but we did this well and we were so close............no you's lost as you simply weren't good enough and creating one chance that you were close with isn't good enough at this level.

Who's going to be your strike force in 2018? I cant think of much goal scoring talent coming through.
		
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Because his ethos is exactly what England needs right now - looking towards a better brand of football based around young players that can be coached and moulded better. 

One of the brightest players for England was Sterling - Sterling has improved massively because of the way Rodgers works - he is also ruthless and doesn't believe in sentiment


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			You hit the nail on the head, most players are in that league for a reason and I agree with you and others who have put forward that argument, but why limit ourselves to picking the same players when there might be a few players in lower leagues that can do a job for England. Use the scouting network and give others a chance to shine.



You're right it is becoming tiresome, but it's not going away and if anything it's getting worse. The dilution of the premiership with foreign players has just about reached saturation point and until something is done about it our national game will not be able to compete with the other major nations, England will just be also rans.
		
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Sorry majority of lower league players aren't good enough.

You can't tell if players are good enough at a world class level unless they are tested week in week out against other world class players. 

If a young player stands out in lower leagues usually a premiership club signs them, loans them back to a championship side to gain experience and monitor them and if they think they are good enough they will be given a chance for the parent club.


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Makalele was one of the greatest holding players around - he didn't put in "hard tackles"
		
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But he protected his defence, Gerrard doesn't.


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Do you think Paul Mcginley will be looking at golfer's on the challenge tour for his picks for the Ryder Cup? 

No he won't because they aren't good enough, don't compete against the top players in the world and mainly play on easier courses.

It's exactly the same in football, you have to pick players  that are competing at the top end week in week out not some cart horse from league 2.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

bozza said:



			But he protected his defence, Gerrard doesn't.
		
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England got beat by two quality finishes - the cb's positioning was poor - Gerrard or any holding mid won't stop every attack reaching the CB's and that's where you need your CB to step up - and they didn't 

It's clear for some that Gerrard and indeed Liverpool players ( for some ) have been made the scapegoat for the defeat and it that makes people feel better about it and ignore the obvious tactical issues then away they go. 

Hodgson is a manager who is used to fighting for points to survive - he employs defensive tactics hence 6 men behind the ball but with poor communication and positioning - it's exactly what we saw at Liverpool and it doesn't work. 

Even when England where pushing high he still had both sitting a lot 

The first thing England need to do is to replace Woy .


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Gerrard has been our worst player over the two games. Can't see how anyone can say otherwise


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			England got beat by two quality finishes - the cb's positioning was poor - Gerrard or any holding mid won't stop every attack reaching the CB's and that's where you need your CB to step up - and they didn't 

It's clear for some that Gerrard and indeed Liverpool players ( for some ) have been made the scapegoat for the defeat and it that makes people feel better about it and ignore the obvious tactical issues then away they go. 

Hodgson is a manager who is used to fighting for points to survive - he employs defensive tactics hence 6 men behind the ball but with poor communication and positioning - it's exactly what we saw at Liverpool and it doesn't work. 

Even when England where pushing high he still had both sitting a lot 

The first thing England need to do is to replace Woy .
		
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Who would you replace him with? Seriously?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Gerrard has been our worst player over the two games. Can't see how anyone can say otherwise
		
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Yes you said as such in another thread 

If you can't see how anyone can say otherwise then it's not worth anyone bothering to disagree


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's clear for some that Gerrard and indeed Liverpool players ( for some ) have been made the scapegoat for the defeat and it that makes people feel better about it and ignore the obvious tactical issues then away they go.
		
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Disagree with that mate, I recall there being a chant of "Liverpool, Liverpool... etc" during the 2nd half when Sturridge (I think it was him) lost the ball. Quite a nice moment in the game I thought.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 20, 2014)

Well where do you start.
Brendan Rodgers for England, why? yes he's had one good season but won nowt. Finished runners up but played the premiership and no other cup comps for nigh on 5 months. city Chelsea or Arsenal would of won the premiership in. March if they were in that position. But will deffo agree that people like Brendon and his coaching style of football need encouraging.

Rooney, his name has got him in the last two games. His finishing was atrocious for a "world class striker". We are trying to put round pegs in square holes with him. If he is not the best in his position (Sturridge is) then drop him. What was that all about playing him on the left wing. Why Try summat in the World Cup finals when you had two freindlys in. Miami.

 Last night, we needed to win the game and played with two holding midfielders in Gerrard and  Henderson. eh they could not hold my crutch. Is there anyone in England apart from. Roy Hodgson that thinks Henderson is good enough to play centre mid for England. Why the hell did Jack Wilshire not get on.

Gary Neville gone on record and said V Italy it was the best performance in 15 years. Er, We lost 2-1 Gaz. Twice against average teams. Thank god we don't have to play v Holland Argies, Germany, Costa Rica. Oops there next.

where do we go from here. What is the nucleus of last nights team that will take us to the European championships. Please can anyone tell me. Coz I just cannot see it. HAving seen lasts night team selection and performance the fannying about with Rooney I am convinced that Roy is not the man. But I do not have a clue who is. . Maybe someone like Hoddle.

whatever the FA need to sort out coaching from grass roots and get it sorted out now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Who would you replace him with? Seriously?
		
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Klopp
De Boer 
Clough 
Seedorf
Bergkamp

Take your pick of many people around the game who has played at the highest level and get them young hungry coaches.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Well where do you start.
Brendan Rodgers for England, why? yes he's had one good season but won nowt. Finished runners up but played the premiership and no other cup comps for nigh on 5 months. city Chelsea or Arsenal would of won the premiership in. March if they were in that position. But will deffo agree that people like Brendon and his coaching style of football need encouraging.

Rooney, his name has got him in the last two games. His finishing was atrocious for a "world class striker". We are trying to put round pegs in square holes with him. If he is not the best in his position (Sturridge is) then drop him. What was that all about playing him on the left wing. Why Try summat in the World Cup finals when you had two freindlys in. Miami.

 Last night, we needed to win the game and played with two holding midfielders in Gerrard and  Henderson. eh they could not hold my crutch. Is there anyone in England apart from. Roy Hodgson that thinks Henderson is good enough to play centre mid for England. Why the hell did Jack Wilshire not get on.

Gary Neville gone on record and said V Italy it was the best performance in 15 years. Er, We lost 2-1 Gaz. Twice against average teams. Thank god we don't have to play v Holland Argies, Germany, Costa Rica. Oops there next.

where do we go from here. What is the nucleus of last nights team that will take us to the European championships. Please can anyone tell me. Coz I just cannot see it. HAving seen lasts night team selection and performance the fannying about with Rooney I am convinced that Roy is not the man. But I do not have a clue who is. . Maybe someone like Hoddle.

whatever the FA need to sort out coaching from grass roots and get it sorted out now.
		
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Wilshire has done nothing to justify his hype and certainly done nothing to justify starting for England 

Henderson does a lot of work that he won't ever get credit for


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			England got beat by two quality finishes - the cb's positioning was poor - Gerrard or any holding mid won't stop every attack reaching the CB's and that's where you need your CB to step up - and they didn't 

It's clear for some that Gerrard and indeed Liverpool players ( for some ) have been made the scapegoat for the defeat and it that makes people feel better about it and ignore the obvious tactical issues then away they go. 

Hodgson is a manager who is used to fighting for points to survive - he employs defensive tactics hence 6 men behind the ball but with poor communication and positioning - it's exactly what we saw at Liverpool and it doesn't work. 

Even when England where pushing high he still had both sitting a lot 

The first thing England need to do is to replace Woy .
		
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Nah people aren't making Liverpool players scapegoats at all, Gerrard has had 2 bad games, jags has had a poor one also and im a Everton fan. 

Gerrard hasn't got the legs anymore, we need a younger player that has the legs to dirty work of breaking up play, put himself about a bit and set up a quick counter attack.


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Klopp
De Boer 
Clough 
Seedorf
Bergkamp

Take your pick of many people around the game who has played at the highest level and get them young hungry coaches.
		
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These are the type of people who need to be in charge of youth development. Waddle, Anderton, Shearer, Sheringham, Scholes to name but a few. Who do we get, Trevor Brooking and some numpties I've never even heard of. Hardly inspiring for the kids is it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			These are the type of people who need to be in charge of youth development. Waddle, Anderton, Shearer, Sheringham, Scholes to name but a few. Who do we get, Trevor Brooking and some numpties I've never even heard of. Hardly inspiring for the kids is it?
		
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Would also add Dixon and Keown into the list.


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would also add Dixon and Keown into the list.
		
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Yes definitely.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Yes definitely.
		
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The FA won't touch them and also won't touch another foreign coach ! Hodgson is perfect for them


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## Marshy77 (Jun 20, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			These are the type of people who need to be in charge of youth development. Waddle, Anderton, Shearer, Sheringham, Scholes to name but a few. Who do we get, Trevor Brooking and some numpties I've never even heard of. Hardly inspiring for the kids is it?
		
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Not trying to be argumentative but why? Unless they've done there badges and are willing to leave the commentary jobs and put 100% into getting the youth and grass roots on track then it needs to be done with proper fully qualified coaches or there's no real point. Get them in to take a session or so and talk to the kids but not to coach them without full qualifications. Think Scholes and Sheringham have, not sure about the others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Marshy77 said:



			Not trying to be argumentative but why? Unless they've done there badges and are willing to leave the commentary jobs and put 100% into getting the youth and grass roots on track then it needs to be done with proper fully qualified coaches or there's no real point. Get them in to take a session or so and talk to the kids but not to coach them without full qualifications. Think Scholes and Sheringham have, not sure about the others.
		
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Qualifications are great for coaches - but nothing beats experience 

Ex players like Carragher and Scholes are doing their coaching - but our FA will never have the balls to do what both Germany or indeed Holland have done by giving these ex players a chance

Look at the list over the last ten years of ex players abroad in top jobs 

Pep
Enrique
Inzahgi
Leonardo
Kinsman
De Boer
Laudrap
Rijkaard
Seedorf


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Oh and the one thing you don't do is critisize the oppositions best player just before you play them - motivates them slightly 

Suarez has come out and said that Hodgsons critiscim of him spurned him on !


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## Marshy77 (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Qualifications are great for coaches - but nothing beats experience 

Ex players like Carragher and Scholes are doing their coaching - but our FA will never have the balls to do what both Germany or indeed Holland have done by giving these ex players a chance

Look at the list over the last ten years of ex players abroad in top jobs 

Pep
Enrique
Inzahgi
Leonardo
Kinsman
De Boer
Laudrap
Rijkaard
Seedorf
		
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Not all of them have been successful but I hear what your saying. I'd use there experience in teaching the kids about the game rather than coaching them.


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## Piece (Jun 20, 2014)

In my view, its not necessarily the players or the manager, it is how we actually play that is our failing (and always has). Here's why:

*Defence*: We mark space not men. Time after time we slot back into formation but we don't mark or track men. It makes it easier for the opposition to move into pockets of space in front of the back four. You look at the decent defending sides, they are mobile nd track runners. The Cavani chance early second half last night is a classic example of standing off and ball watching while the runners play round them. Chile play a heavy pressing game when they lose the ball - they swarm all over you. Not saying we should adopt this style, but we don't apply pressure or mark well enough.

*Attack*: Our passing recently has been better than in recent years. The failing is that we are too slow, too predictable and as with our defence, we're not mobile enough. The front men have got to move around more and quickly, pull the defence around to create opportunities. We rely too much on mistakes and set-pieces for our goals. Again, you only have to look at Chile, Columbia, Holland, Germany, etc. on how it should be done. It seems that the players are afraid to move out of position in case they are caught out of position - this was precisely the issue when we were flobbed 4-1 by Germany in the last WC.

I'm glad that we are trying to play more of passing game, dispelling the years of long-ball. We need though to take it to the next step and show unpredictability and quick movement upfront, and be more mobile and mark better in defence. Somehow (don't have answer) we have to change how the players play and that can't happen overnight.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Marshy77 said:



			Not all of them have been successful but I hear what your saying. I'd use there experience in teaching the kids about the game rather than coaching them.
		
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Get them all involved and move past the old boys. England need a very big culture change within the grass roots of the game but too many look to blame the prem league and the clubs.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh and the one thing you don't do is critisize the oppositions best player just before you play them - motivates them slightly 

Suarez has come out and said that Hodgsons critiscim of him spurned him on !
		
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Wow.Great observation Sherlock..So how do you explain the game against Italy,when Ballotelli criticized the whole team?...Sure spurned us on.To many bridesmaids in the side,that are still hurting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Wow.Great observation Sherlock..So how do you explain the game against Italy,when Ballotelli criticized the whole team?...Sure spurned us on.To many bridesmaids in the side,that are still hurting.
		
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Bridesmaids ? Didn't realise the thread had turned to weddings ? 

Balotelli wasn't critisizing one of the best in the world who could easily damage any team in the world.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bridesmaids ? Didn't realise the thread had turned to weddings ? 

Balotelli wasn't critisizing one of the best in the world who could easily damage any team in the world.
		
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Chortling here.Your class.You know what i mean...Wing Commander hair splitter you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Chortling here.Your class.You know what i mean...Wing Commander hair splitter you.
		
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Sorry but I really don't know what you mean. Quite hard to understand.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I really don't know what you mean. Quite hard to understand.[/QUOTE
That's what a lot of Liverpool fans say.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I really don't know what you mean. Quite hard to understand.[/QUOTE
That's what a lot of Liverpool fans say.
		
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Spurs fan by any chance - certainly have the bitterness for one
		
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## 3565 (Jun 20, 2014)

Anybody else think the link up play for the second goal between Gerrard and Suarez quite simply brilliant?............. Wonder if Gerrard knew he was playing for England and not Liverpool.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

3565 said:



			Anybody else think the link up play for the second goal between Gerrard and Suarez quite simply brilliant?............. Wonder if Gerrard knew he was playing for England and not Liverpool. 

Click to expand...

Agree.Was a great cushioned header,bit like the challenge on Suarez in first half he bottled out of.


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## guest100718 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Agree.Was a great cushioned header,bit like the challenge on Suarez in first half he bottled out of.
		
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Those 2 certainly link up well, perhaps gerrard will go to real too, like 5 bellies and gazza.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2014)

I thought England played pretty well in both the games, slightly unlucky.
I am glad that Hodgson is not quitting, he seems the best long term bet for England.
There are a group of young players coming through who seem to be playing with far less fear than previous England players.
I hope they get a decent chance and don't get coached out of playing direct football.

Tippy Tappy has failed miserably and more direct attacking football seems to be the new trend.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought England played pretty well in both the games, slightly unlucky.
I am glad that Hodgson is not quitting, he seems the best long term bet for England.
There are a group of young players coming through who seem to be playing with far less fear than previous England players.
I hope they get a decent chance and don't get coached out of playing direct football.

Tippy Tappy has failed miserably and more direct attacking football seems to be the new trend.
		
Click to expand...

Are you being serious ? 

For the sake of English football the sooner they stop coaching direct football the better ! 

England have been playing direct football for decades and got them nowhere. 

Hodgson should be nowhere near those players in fear of ruining their careers for England.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Linekar wearing an Italian football shirt :rofl:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you being serious ? 

For the sake of English football the sooner they stop coaching direct football the better ! 

England have been playing direct football for decades and got them nowhere. 

Hodgson should be nowhere near those players in fear of ruining their careers for England.
		
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I see you chose to miss out the 'without fear' bit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see you chose to miss out the 'without fear' bit.
		
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What difference does that make to the post ?

Your idea of football is exactly the opposite of what England or in fact any team needs - it's straight out of the Woy book of plays and belongs in the 60's 

Direct football helps less talented teams avoid relegation - see Bolton and West Ham as perfect examples.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2014)

I reckon fear overcometh the England players - fear that they do not experience when they are playing 'for fun' for their EPL clubs and so fear that they are unable to cope with when playing for England.  They are emotionally probably quite immature.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought England played pretty well in both the games, slightly unlucky.
I am glad that Hodgson is not quitting, he seems the best long term bet for England.
There are a group of young players coming through who seem to be playing with far less fear than previous England players.
I hope they get a decent chance and don't get coached out of playing direct football.

Tippy Tappy has failed miserably and more direct attacking football seems to be the new trend.
		
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Load of rubbish.Might be good enough for Scotland,but not England.


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2014)

That tippy tappy style of football worked ok for Spain. Arguably the most successful international squad in history, no other team has done what they have, pretty much untouchable for 6 or 7 years.

One bad tournament and that style of playing has 'failed miserably'. Really? Keeping possession is now a bad thing?


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## User20205 (Jun 20, 2014)

These kind of navel gazing recriminations are about as predictable as us going out of a major tournament early.  I don't know where this sense of entitlement comes from. The fact is we lost to 2 teams ranked higher than us in the world rankings. Is it really that much of a surprise ?? It also makes me laugh when any togetherness we have disintegrates at the first sign of any set back. 

We have no right to expect to succeed, we never have!! Our system is set up for club football not national success.

My little boy was gutted this morning when he found out we lost. He'd better get used to that feeling if he's gonna support England.

My only disappointment is that it wasn't a glorious failure, I like a glorious failure, think Italy 1990, that was glorious !!


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Load of rubbish.Might be good enough for Scotland,but not England.
		
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Unfortunately you're correct.  I'm not sure when Scots started swallowing this 'jam tomorrow' way of thinking when it comes to the national team, but it's been going on since '98 at least.  I'm still waiting on the crop of wonder kids coming through!


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 20, 2014)

therod said:



			These kind of navel gazing recriminations are about as predictable as us going out of a major tournament early.  I don't know where this sense of entitlement comes from. The fact is we lost to 2 teams ranked higher than us in the world rankings. Is it really that much of a surprise ?? It also makes me laugh when any togetherness we have disintegrates at the first sign of any set back. 

We have no right to expect to succeed, we never have!! Our system is set up for club football not national success.

My little boy was gutted this morning when he found out we lost. He'd better get used to that feeling if he's gonna support England.

My only disappointment is that it wasn't a glorious failure, I like a glorious failure, think Italy 1990, that was glorious !!
		
Click to expand...

We played worse than this in the group games in 1990...


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

therod said:



			These kind of navel gazing recriminations are about as predictable as us going out of a major tournament early.  I don't know where this sense of entitlement comes from. The fact is we lost to 2 teams ranked higher than us in the world rankings. Is it really that much of a surprise ?? It also makes me laugh when any togetherness we have disintegrates at the first sign of any set back. 

We have no right to expect to succeed, we never have!! Our system is set up for club football not national success.

My little boy was gutted this morning when he found out we lost. He'd better get used to that feeling if he's gonna support England.

My only disappointment is that it wasn't a glorious failure, I like a glorious failure, think Italy 1990, that was glorious !!
		
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Fiirstly,how do you account for Spain exiting early with this hypothesis?
Secondly,the amount of FA money gone into grass roots football blows this point out of the water.By the way,you cannot compare premier league i.e. set up to internationlal set up.
Thirdly,sorry for your boy.It is hard if he is football mad,and you are right there,he'll have to get used to it.
Finally,the charge of the light brigade was a glorious failure.No such thing i am afraid.The Italia 90 side were a good side,built from 86..They were unlucky, Waddle woodwork,Gazza,fraction to late,but that is how it goes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Well it's looking likely that England are out. Costa Rica 1 up against Italy


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## Stuart_C (Jun 20, 2014)

So, after 2 failed competitions (Euro 12 WC 14) Mr Hodgson will remain as England manager!!

When you've clowns in charge of the national game you end up with a clown of a manager.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Load of rubbish.Might be good enough for Scotland,but not England.
		
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Don't know about Scotland but The Dutch seemed to have mastered the art.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 20, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			We played worse than this in the group games in 1990...
		
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Regardless of how they played, they qualified!!

England need to get a proper manager in asap or it'll be at least another 10 yrs before they progress.

There's some very good young  English talent around  and leaving it upto Mr Hodgson to develop them scares me.


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## User20205 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Fiirstly,how do you account for Spain exiting early with this hypothesis?
Secondly,the amount of FA money gone into grass roots football blows this point out of the water.By the way,you cannot compare premier league i.e. set up to internationlal set up.
Thirdly,sorry for your boy.It is hard if he is football mad,and you are right there,he'll have to get used to it.
Finally,the charge of the light brigade was a glorious failure.No such thing i am afraid.The Italia 90 side were a good side,built from 86..They were unlucky, Waddle woodwork,Gazza,fraction to late,but that is how it goes.
		
Click to expand...



Spain are on the descent of the mountain, we've not even reached base camp!

It's not about they money being invested, otherwise Brazil, the argies the rest of the world would be rubbish. The premier league teams, until recently weren't bothered about developing English talent, not when they can buy cheap off the shelf from abroad. Maybe financial FairPlay will change that, but not overnight.

My point is, we're not great, we never have been.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 20, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			So, after 2 failed competitions (Euro 12 WC 14) Mr Hodgson will remain as England manager!!

When you've clowns in charge of the national game you end up with a clown of a manager.
		
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Sorry but I disagree. He had no right backs to choose & had limited options at CB. Walcott was a big loss IMO.
Roy's first job is to pick a new captain.


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## User20205 (Jun 20, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			So, after 2 failed competitions (Euro 12 WC 14) Mr Hodgson will remain as England manager!!

When you've clowns in charge of the national game you end up with a clown of a manager.
		
Click to expand...


He's cheap though!! Apparently the FA have gone on record as saying they won't go foreign again. If not Roy, there is no one else.

Bring back Sven, I liked him. Germany 1 England 5 was brilliant, that still makes me smile. We'll always have Munich:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't know about Scotland but The Dutch seemed to have mastered the art.
		
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The Dutch don't play direct football !!


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## User20205 (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Dutch don't play direct football !!
		
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They play shhhhexy football:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			So, after 2 failed competitions (Euro 12 WC 14) Mr Hodgson will remain as England manager!!

When you've clowns in charge of the national game you end up with a clown of a manager.
		
Click to expand...

He is a FA man through and through - not going to give them any hassle nor create any negative headlines.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes you said as such in another thread 

If you can't see how anyone can say otherwise then it's not worth anyone bothering to disagree
		
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If you want to disagree I'd be happy to listen to you


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			If you want to disagree I'd be happy to listen to you
		
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Gerrard hasn't played his best football nor his worst 

Cahill poor marking cost England against Italy plus the poor play up front 

Against Urugauy he missed a header and a tackle but JÃ¤gelkia positioning cost two goals 

So whilst Gerrard wasn't great the 4 behind him were worse throughout both games 

The only things both Baines and Johnson contributed each was a cross

Only three players can prob hold their head up a little - Henderson , Sterling and Sturridge


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

So Costa Rica are through - think that means England are out - first time they are out after only 2 games ever


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2014)

I'll tell ye what, that Costa Rica team would probably beat you as well. Might be a good job they are through and will possibly be resting some players.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Costa Rica are through - think that means England are out - first time they are out after only 2 games ever
		
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But Rooney was our best player when played in his position :thup:


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## richart (Jun 20, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			No I cannot, but then I'm not a football scout travelling the country watching games.

You are correct in thinking that if a lower league player is good enough for England the it won't be long before a top club signs him up.
		
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 I see a lot of the championship games, and the one player that stands out for me that could well play for England is Danny Ings. Only 21 and will be in the Premiership with Burnley next season. England need some new strikers, and he is a natural finisher.


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## 6inchcup (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard hasn't played his best football nor his worst 

Cahill poor marking cost England against Italy plus the poor play up front 

Against Urugauy he missed a header and a tackle but JÃ¤gelkia positioning cost two goals 

So whilst Gerrard wasn't great the 4 behind him were worse throughout both games 

The only things both Baines and Johnson contributed each was a cross

Only three players can prob hold their head up a little - Henderson , Sterling and Sturridge
		
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STERLING was poor last night and was in awe of SAUREZ,same as GERRARD as if the had got the call from RODGERS to protect SAUREZ and his doggy leg,not one ENGLAND player can say the worked their tripe off for the team,NOT ONE.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			STERLING was poor last night and was in awe of SAUREZ,same as GERRARD as if the had got the call from RODGERS to protect SAUREZ and his doggy leg,not one ENGLAND player can say the worked their tripe off for the team,NOT ONE.
		
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Do you have a problem with the caps lock ?


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gerrard hasn't played his best football nor his worst 

Cahill poor marking cost England against Italy plus the poor play up front 

Against Urugauy he missed a header and a tackle but JÃ¤gelkia positioning cost two goals 

So whilst Gerrard wasn't great the 4 behind him were worse throughout both games 

The only things both Baines and Johnson contributed each was a cross

Only three players can prob hold their head up a little - Henderson , Sterling and Sturridge
		
Click to expand...

Gerrard has played worse than in those 2 games? I'm shocked

I agree that others haven't played well in certain games but Gerrard has been truly awful in both. He's supposed to be our captain but was totally underwhelming.  

For Suarez's first Johnson should've got tighter to Cavani and attempted to stop the cross but agree that Jags shouldn't of been caught ball watching and cut out the cross. 

As for the second Gerrard totally mis-timed his just which caught the centre backs out the Suarez gambled. Don't forget the back 4 were a lot less experienced than the likes of Gerrard. He really needs to stand down after this and hopefully he won't be selected Tuesday. 

You have really defended him as much as I'd hoped


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

I'd add Sturridge and sterling didn't really do anything last night


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Dutch don't play direct football !!
		
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In your opinion... but they do manage to score lots of goals against tippy tappy teams.

Perhaps they out-bore them and sleep walk the ball into the net.

Anyway......... I thought I read somewhere that, unlike me, you don't support England. If so, you do seem to have an AWFUL lot to say about them.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

So England break new records,and make history.First time been knocked out of World Cup after 2 games,as i said before, too many Liverpool players in start up, still crying after prem title slipping away, and that is only the start of the problems.Tactics, ego's inabillity to gel together,the list is endless..Everyone bleats on about a new era with the young players,on this form,no chance, how many times has this been said..Never mind,they will all soon be on there hols in Dubai or elsewhere,doing what they are really good at, spending there hard earned cash..All time low reached by this shower,from the top down!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Gerrard has played worse than in those 2 games? I'm shocked

I agree that others haven't played well in certain games but Gerrard has been truly awful in both. He's supposed to be our captain but was totally underwhelming.  

For Suarez's first Johnson should've got tighter to Cavani and attempted to stop the cross but agree that Jags shouldn't of been caught ball watching and cut out the cross. 

As for the second Gerrard totally mis-timed his just which caught the centre backs out the Suarez gambled. Don't forget the back 4 were a lot less experienced than the likes of Gerrard. He really needs to stand down after this and hopefully he won't be selected Tuesday. 

You have really defended him as much as I'd hoped
		
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He doesn't "need" to do anything and he will be selected on Tuesday. 

You think he has been awful - I think others have been worse 

Either way the defence has cost England a place in the K/O and both CB's are very culpable for all the goals and now England are out. You can point fingers at players or can look at the manager and the poor tactics he employed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In your opinion... but they do manage to score lots of goals against tippy tappy teams.

Perhaps they out-bore them and sleep walk the ball into the net.
		
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They had one game against Spain where everything went right - not so long ago they were being beaten by Spain for the World Cup itself

Spain won three tournaments in a row - that's three - never been done before.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			So England break new records,and make history.First time been knocked out of World Cup after 2 games,as i said before, too many Liverpool players in start up, still crying after prem title slipping away, and that is only the start of the problems.Tactics, ego's inabillity to gel together,the list is endless..Everyone bleats on about a new era with the young players,on this form,no chance, how many times has this been said..Never mind,they will all soon be on there hols in Dubai or elsewhere,doing what they are really good at, spending there hard earned cash..All time low reached by this shower,from the top down!
		
Click to expand...

Three of those Liverpool,players you slate where England's best players over the two games - which team should have provided more players then instead of Liverpool ? Spurs 

The dribble you have posted is laughable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2014)

Gerrard has lacked inspiration as a captain and not led England with any of the passion he showed for Liverpool. He hasn't played well either and his ball retention and passing yesterday was poor. There have been others that haven't performed as well but you expect and need your captain to lead by example


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He doesn't "need" to do anything and he will be selected on Tuesday. 

You think he has been awful - I think others have been worse 

Either way the defence has cost England a place in the K/O and both CB's are very culpable for all the goals and now England are out. You can point fingers at players or can look at the manager and the poor tactics he employed.
		
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Sorry,GERRARD, culperable for 2nd goal last night,was a great flick on at pace,and SUAREZ ,like when playing at LIVERPOOL gambled correctly..Game over


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He doesn't "need" to do anything and he will be selected on Tuesday. 

You think he has been awful - I think others have been worse 

Either way the defence has cost England a place in the K/O and both CB's are very culpable for all the goals and now England are out. You can point fingers at players or can look at the manager and the poor tactics he employed.
		
Click to expand...

You're right he doesn't need to stand down but he should. 

I wonder if you'd be defending him as much if he didn't play for Liverpool. Of course you'd never answer that truthfully

You think others have been worse but the majority of the country, ex pros, football exports and most of the media think he was the worst


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Gerrard has lacked inspiration as a captain and not led England with any of the passion he showed for Liverpool. He hasn't played well either and his ball retention and passing yesterday was poor. There have been others that haven't performed as well but you expect and need your captain to lead by example
		
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Rooney lost the ball more times than Gerrard did yesterday.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Sorry,GERRARD, culperable for 2nd goal last night,was a great flick on at pace,and SUAREZ ,like when playing at LIVERPOOL gambled correctly..Game over
		
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Gerrard missed a header 40 yards from goal !! Where was the CB's


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Three of those Liverpool,players you slate where England's best players over the two games - which team should have provided more players then instead of Liverpool ? Spurs 

The dribble you have posted is laughable.
		
Click to expand...




Do you hang around just waiting to post , bottom line is England is coming home , been better if they played all the young players and lost , last game now so give the young lads a go


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rooney lost the ball more times than Gerrard did yesterday.
		
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But he scored. What was Gerrards total contribution? Poor leadership, mistake that cost a goal. Others were bad too but as I said you need and expect your captain to lead by example. Or can't you accept critiscism of a Liverpool player?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			You're right he doesn't need to stand down but he should. 

I wonder if you'd be defending him as much if he didn't play for Liverpool. Of course you'd never answer that truthfully

You think others have been worse but the majority of the country, ex pros, football exports and most of the media think he was the worst
		
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Majority of the country ? Done a quick straw poll ? Just watched Henry and Seedorf and Ferdinand slate the CB's for the goal 

The hypocritical nature of people on here is laughable - the moral high ground adopted by people demanding England players were supported now turn the knives on the captain after missing a header 40 yards from goal and a tackle 40 yards from goal. 

Laughable truely laughable.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Three of those Liverpool,players you slate where England's best players over the two games - which team should have provided more players then instead of Liverpool ? Spurs 

The dribble you have posted is laughable.
		
Click to expand...

The drivel (not dribble),i quote is just what you do not want to hear.Rooney scores,near misses, sets one up,but counts for nothing in your eyes.
Spurs,ha ha,guessed wrong again,in an earlier post referring to Jagielka,let you know where my support goes,and it isn't Everton.
However,i am surrounded by plastic scousers around her, so i have heard all what you say before...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But he scored. What was Gerrards total contribution? Poor leadership, mistake that cost a goal. Others were bad too but as I said you need and expect your captain to lead by example. Or can't you accept critiscism of a Liverpool player?
		
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So again someone else ignoring the very crucial part the cb's played in the goals conceded 

Gerrard was 40 yards from goal when he missed that header 40 yards !


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## User20205 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			So England break new records,and make history.First time been knocked out of World Cup after 2 games,as i said before, too many Liverpool players in start up, still crying after prem title slipping away, and that is only the start of the problems.Tactics, ego's inabillity to gel together,the list is endless..Everyone bleats on about a new era with the young players,on this form,no chance, how many times has this been said..Never mind,they will all soon be on there hols in Dubai or elsewhere,doing what they are really good at, spending there hard earned cash..All time low reached by this shower,from the top down!
		
Click to expand...




HomerJSimpson said:



			Gerrard has lacked inspiration as a captain and not led England with any of the passion he showed for Liverpool. He hasn't played well either and his ball retention and passing yesterday was poor. There have been others that haven't performed as well but you expect and need your captain to lead by example
		
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This is exactly what I mean, finger pointing cliched nonsense. If not Gerrard then who, if not Rooney then who. They are our best players, they came up short, as the previous incarnations have done. All this Hand wringing, finger pointing nonsense is a waste of time. 
If we had no expectations going into the tournement, in a really tough group, then why are we surprised ?

Arm chair, plastic championship managers :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Three of those Liverpool,players you slate where England's best players over the two games - which team should have provided more players then instead of Liverpool ? Spurs 

The dribble you have posted is laughable.
		
Click to expand...

The drivel (not dribble),i quote is just what you do not want to hear.Rooney scores,near misses, sets one up,but counts for nothing in your eyes.
Spurs,ha ha,guessed wrong again,in an earlier post referring to Jagielka,let you know where my support goes,and it isn't Everton.
However,i am surrounded by plastic scousers around her, so i have heard all what you say before...
		
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Ah Sheff UTD - 

Yes the same team that still blames Liverpool for them getting relegated from the prem - bitterness is clear


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2014)

Sorry Phil but not for the first time you refuse to accept anybody else's right to have an opinion and you have to be right. This makes it so difficult and frustrating to have a balanced debate and as you've cornered this for your own point making again, I'm bowing out less I get in trouble again. It's a shame you seem it has to always be your way or no way


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ah Sheff UTD - 

Yes the same team that still blames Liverpool for them getting relegated from the prem - bitterness is clear
		
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Correct.Not bitter.Lager kinda guy..For the rec Phil,
You must have seen this link.
http://youtu.be/uVb2gbMtN3I


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## chris661 (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you have a problem with the caps lock ?
		
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Do you have a problem with your space bar? Let's not bother picking up on others mistakes unless you are peter perfect yourself.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

therod said:



			This is exactly what I mean, finger pointing cliched nonsense. If not Gerrard then who, if not Rooney then who. They are our best players, they came up short, as the previous incarnations have done. All this Hand wringing, finger pointing nonsense is a waste of time. 
If we had no expectations going into the tournement, in a really tough group, then why are we surprised ?

Arm chair, plastic championship managers :thup:
		
Click to expand...

...Look when the wife who has no idea about football,says that was a right shower of 5h1te,you know there are big problems,tough group my backside!


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Majority of the country ? Done a quick straw poll ? Just watched Henry and Seedorf and Ferdinand slate the CB's for the goal 

The hypocritical nature of people on here is laughable - the moral high ground adopted by people demanding England players were supported now turn the knives on the captain after missing a header 40 yards from goal and a tackle 40 yards from goal. 

Laughable truely laughable.
		
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The thing is that's all he did last night. He weant missing for most of the match. Some captain

BTW you never answer my question about him being a Liverpool player but you silence speaks volumes


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			The thing is that's all he did last night. He weant missing for most of the match. Some captain

BTW you never answer my question about him being a Liverpool player but you silence speaks volumes
		
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What is the point in answering your question ? 

My opinion when people play for England has nothing to do with the club they play for - but you won't believe that anyway


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			...Look when the wife who has no idea about football,says that was a right shower of 5h1te,you know there are big problems,tough group my backside!
		
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2 teams with a higher ranking as well as a superior record against England. That was a tough group.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Did you see the earlier link Phil...Do you know why Gerrard didn't go to Chelsea?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Did you see the earlier link Phil...Do you know why Gerrard didn't go to Chelsea?
		
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Boring old ground.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

c1973 said:



			2 teams with a higher ranking as well as a superior record against England. That was a tough group.
		
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Fair does,toughish group..But we should have had at the least a draw to take it to the last group game eh?


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boring old ground.
		
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True though


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## Rumpokid (Jun 20, 2014)

Anyway,enough angst has been said on here...Italy v Uruguay should be a corker


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## JCW (Jun 20, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry Phil but not for the first time you refuse to accept anybody else's right to have an opinion and you have to be right. This makes it so difficult and frustrating to have a balanced debate and as you've cornered this for your own point making again, I'm bowing out less I get in trouble again. It's a shame you seem it has to always be your way or no way
		
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Yep he was the same with the G Swann thing ..............EYG


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## c1973 (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Fair does,toughish group..But we should have had at the least a draw to take it to the last group game eh?
		
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I would have expected better, definitely.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What is the point in answering your question ? 

My opinion when people play for England has nothing to do with the club they play for - but you won't believe that anyway
		
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I didn't mean any players, players from your club. 

I've praised and been critical of players from Liverpool/Man U etc. can you say the same?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			I didn't mean any players, players from your club. 

I've praised and been critical of players from Liverpool/Man U etc. can you say the same?
		
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I do believe I have been critical of Johnson for his poor performances this World Cup

As I said my opinion is irrelevant of the club they play for.


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## richart (Jun 20, 2014)

I find it disappointing that England players do not bring their club form to the World Cup. Look at teams like Chile, and Costa Rica, not full of top players, but they play out of their socks for their Country. They also have a type of player we have not had for years, a defensive midfielder that can defend foremost and pass the ball to the more creative midfielders. A player that most fans don't even notice, but provides a link between defence and attack.

I would say that I think the England defence is the weakest I think I have ever seen. Centre backs that are very average with little pace, and full backs that should be able to defend first, and attack second. Ashley Cole is the type of full back you need in major competitions. I want to see the wide midfielders getting the ball into the box, not the likes of Glen Johnson.

Must admit I was not expecting us to qualify, but it is still very disappointing. Let's build a team for the next World Cup rather than throwing in a bunch of individuals.:thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 20, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			England have been poor in both games. End of.
As viewed from the missus's eyes who does not follow football, her comment was,"why does no-one pass it to each other". enough said.
From my perspective,said before results, Terry and Cole should have gone, i know issues with Terry,but good centre half.
Baines out of his depth,to soon for him.
I am Jags fan, seen him plenty at the Lane,but to soon for him also.
Hart, comes way to far off his line a lot of the time.To hyped up.
Side was made up of too many second rate Liverpool players,so we got our justs.
Never thought Gerrard's head would be together, after end of prem season.
Sterling will be another John Barnes.
So all in all, after 2 of their most important matches to date, we were outplayed, outthought, and outclassed...
....By the way, it pains me to say it, as i am an England fan,not a non-supporter like some....There is no easy answer, or fix that i can see happening to the way we play for years come..And yes,Hodgson should take a lot of the flak too.Couldn't change things when needed.
		
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Are you making a late run for presidency of the anti-Liverpool GM club? guest100718 and Pinseeker have it sewn up, but maybe a late push might see you throughâ€¦..

Maybe you should listen to the wife more, speaks more sense than you:-
Too soon for Baines â€“ heâ€™s 30.
Too soon for jags â€“ heâ€™s 32.
When will they be ready then? 40 and 42?

Too many second rate Liverpool players (the same ones who lots were saying that they should build the team around, BUT only if they played with the same team attacking attitude, which was no chance with _oy in charge. 
Youâ€™ll slag Phil off for defending Liverpool players, but when met with the same crap from you, itâ€™s no wonder. 

Supporting a tin pot club like Sheff united mustnâ€™t give you much to talk about on here, so I can understand you jumping on any Liverpool, story when it suits. Enjoy your hobby, petal.

BTW Gerrard was crap, from the limited time I did see of last nightâ€™s game.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I do believe I have been critical of Johnson for his poor performances this World Cup

As I said my opinion is irrelevant of the club they play for.
		
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Johnson played better than Gerrard yesterday (I honestly never thought I'd type that)


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## Stuart_C (Jun 20, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Sorry but I disagree. *He had no right backs to choose & had limited options at CB. Walcott was a big loss IMO*.
Roy's first job is to pick a new captain.
		
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So what's going to change over the next 2yrs because I dont see great English rb/cb playing in the league now. With possibly the exception of Stones/Shaw.

On the captaincy I think it should be Welbeck.

He can't hide behind the players blaming the poor players he had to choose from.

He's a very nice man with over 38yrs European football experience and looks absolutely clueless when things aren't going well.  

Walcott was a miss, but the book stops with the manager. 

He isn't good enough and I'm confident they'll fail to qualify  for 2016 Euro's under him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Johnson played better than Gerrard yesterday (I honestly never thought I'd type that)
		
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Would have nothing between the two of them. Johnson has been poor going forward as well as defending. 

Regardless of what players people want to pick out and blame 

The tactics employed by Owl Face take a lot of the blame - I will never understand why he plays Lallana in the warm ups but then sticks with Welbeck who offers nothing going forward !


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## AmandaJR (Jun 20, 2014)

We were beaten in both matches because we're not good enough and not by a long way - depressing as it is to say that. Poor control throughout, dreadful passing throughout, poor positional play throughout...just poor, poor, poor. Some poorer than others but as a whole, over two games, I can't think of a single player who was good enough on the world stage to make a difference. For me Cahill was the best of a poor lot but often just had too much to do as the rest of the defence caved in around him.

I don't have an answer except to reduce my expectations even further than they'd already plummeted to. Can't help but dream though so always gutted when we're let down. Plan to tune into the rugby tomorrow to restore some faith in an Englishman playing his heart out for his country.


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## GB72 (Jun 20, 2014)

First I would point out that any comment I make comes from a slightly naive point of view because I am not a died in the wool football fan. 

People say that they are surprised that club form does not follow into international matches but it really is no shock to me. In the sports that we have recent history of being good at on an international level the players spend as much, if not more time with the international squad than with their clubs. These, however, are sports where wearing your nations shirt is the pinacle if any career. In a sport like football where a 6th sense about what your teanmate is going to do next is vital, it is hardly surprising that a team with players who withdraw from friendlies etc with supposed injuries have little understanding of what the rest of the team are thinking. Add to this the fact that you cannot select while units like a back 4 because there are so few english players in the premiership let alone playing together and you are going to struggle to put a cohesive performance together


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## richart (Jun 20, 2014)

GB72 said:



			First I would point out that any comment I make comes from a slightly naive point of view because I am not a died in the wool football fan. 

People say that they are surprised that club form does not follow into international matches but it really is no shock to me. In the sports that we have recent history of being good at on an international level the players spend as much, if not more time with the international squad than with their clubs. These, however, are sports where wearing your nations shirt is the pinacle if any career. In a sport like football where a 6th sense about what your teanmate is going to do next is vital, it is hardly surprising that a team with players who withdraw from friendlies etc with supposed injuries have little understanding of what the rest of the team are thinking. Add to this the fact that you cannot select while units like a back 4 because there are so few english players in the premiership let alone playing together and you are going to struggle to put a cohesive performance together
		
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 Good point, but other Countries seem to be able to do it. Just watched France in the first half against Switzerland. they have a lot of Premiership players from different clubs playing for them, and they seem to be able to play as a team.

Didn't think I would say this but Switzerland have an even weaker defence than England.


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## GB72 (Jun 20, 2014)

Again, just hypothesising as I have no idea but does playing for the national team take on a greater significance for players who spend their lives playing in a foreign country for a team they have little personal or rmotional attachment to.


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would have nothing between the two of them. Johnson has been poor going forward as well as defending. 

Regardless of what players people want to pick out and blame 

The tactics employed by Owl Face take a lot of the blame - I will never understand why he plays Lallana in the warm ups but then sticks with Welbeck who offers nothing going forward !
		
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Owl face? 

Maybe it was just that rodent that they had up front. He is a quality footballer and I bet he could eat a Big Mac through a letterbox no problem.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 20, 2014)

richy said:



			Owl face? 

Maybe it was just that rodent that they had up front. He is a quality footballer and I bet he could eat a Big Mac through a letterbox no problem.
		
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I bet he could - world class footballer though :thup:

Oh and Owl Face


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## richy (Jun 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I bet he could - world class footballer though :thup:

Oh and Owl Face 

View attachment 11137


View attachment 11138

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I'd love to know what you look like. Bet you beat them off with a stick. 

Appearances, problems with speech. Is there anything you won't ridicule someone for? 

Are you actually from Liverpool? You don't act like most scousers I've met (although we haven't met).


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## bozza (Jun 20, 2014)

Not 1 England player has had a good tournament so far. 

One or two players have been average at best it's as simple as that. 

I honestly  never expect to see England win a major tournament in my lifetime.


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## 3565 (Jun 21, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Sorry,GERRARD, culperable for 2nd goal last night,was a great flick on at pace,and SUAREZ ,like when playing at LIVERPOOL gambled correctly..Game over
		
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Think you'll find Gerrard was responsible for the first goal too with a half hearted tackle in centre circle, that led to ball won by there player who gave it to Cavani to Suarez and gooooooooooooaaaaaaaaallllllllllll.


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2014)

Two out of 3 matches played, and the  half term school report might say "lacks concentration and application."

Hart - showed serious moments of indecision 4/10.
Baines - a very poor first game but should improvement in the last game., 5/10
Jagielka - non-descript at best 3/10
Cahill - made some decent tackles but was exposed by the lack of a decent partner 5/10
Johnson - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game, but not good enough on the international stage, 4/10

Gerrard - lacking pace, poor tackling and passes going astray 4/10
Henderson - reminded me of Gerrard in his early years. Good positional play and lots of energy 6/10
Rooney - played out of position in the first game, not doing himself or Baines any favours. A better 2nd game. Good ball retention and decent distribution 6/10
Sterling - showed flashes of brilliance but far too often ran into a cul de sac and was surrounded by opposition players, who took the ball off him. In truth, too naive and a tournament too early 5/10
Sturridge - England's player of the tournament so far, though he hasn't had much to beat. Better service would have seen more goals, 7/10
Welbeck - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game 5/10
Lallana - limited opportunities but showed enough to suggest he's worth a good punt 5/10

So what would I have done differently? Terry and Cahill together, as much as I detest Terry as an individual you can't take away the fact he is still England's best CB. Midfield, a tough one... Lampard and Gerrard in midfield. And play Henderson in there to provide a more solid 3 in central midfield. Lampard to go forward up the left but also provide some steel in front of the LB.

The wrong blend of youth and experience, and the naivity was exposed on numerous occasions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2014)

Owl face.... watch it.
Liverpoolphil said it was bad form to make comments on peoples features after the buck teeth Suarez post.

Oh sorry, that was Liverpoolphils post.


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## JCW (Jun 21, 2014)

richy said:



			I'd love to know what you look like. Bet you beat them off with a stick. 

Appearances, problems with speech. Is there anything you won't ridicule someone for? 

Are you actually from Liverpool? You don't act like most scousers I've met (although we haven't met).
		
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If he was a bird he would be a Vulture as he seems to land on every post on here for a bite and get a debate going LOL  , bottom line is we had the players but choose to play proven losers in international matches ...............EYG


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## Beezerk (Jun 21, 2014)

Anyway, now we are out we can sit back, relax and enjoy the proper football :thup:


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## bozza (Jun 21, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Two out of 3 matches played, and the  half term school report might say "lacks concentration and application."

Hart - showed serious moments of indecision 4/10.
Baines - a very poor first game but should improvement in the last game., 5/10
Jagielka - non-descript at best 3/10
Cahill - made some decent tackles but was exposed by the lack of a decent partner 5/10
Johnson - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game, but not good enough on the international stage, 4/10

Gerrard - lacking pace, poor tackling and passes going astray 4/10
Henderson - reminded me of Gerrard in his early years. Good positional play and lots of energy 6/10
Rooney - played out of position in the first game, not doing himself or Baines any favours. A better 2nd game. Good ball retention and decent distribution 6/10
Sterling - showed flashes of brilliance but far too often ran into a cul de sac and was surrounded by opposition players, who took the ball off him. In truth, too naive and a tournament too early 5/10
Sturridge - England's player of the tournament so far, though he hasn't had much to beat. Better service would have seen more goals, 7/10
Welbeck - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game 5/10
Lallana - limited opportunities but showed enough to suggest he's worth a good punt 5/10

So what would I have done differently? Terry and Cahill together, as much as I detest Terry as an individual you can't take away the fact he is still England's best CB. Midfield, a tough one... Lampard and Gerrard in midfield. And play Henderson in there to provide a more solid 3 in central midfield. Lampard to go forward up the left but also provide some steel in front of the LB.

The wrong blend of youth and experience, and the naivity was exposed on numerous occasions.
		
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I agree with most of this apart from playing Lampard, in that heat and intensity he wouldn't last the pace.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2014)

JCW said:






If he was a bird he would be a Vulture as he seems to land on every post on here for a bite and get a debate going LOL  , bottom line is we had the players but choose to play proven losers in international matches ...............EYG
		
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.
We don't have the players, that is the whole issue.  Playing some 16 year old instead of Gerrard wound have made chuff all difference.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Owl face.... watch it.
Liverpoolphil said it was bad form to make comments on peoples features after the buck teeth Suarez post.

Oh sorry, that was Liverpoolphils post.
		
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I'm guessing you fail to spot sarcasm


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2014)

richy said:



			I'd love to know what you look like. Bet you beat them off with a stick. 

Appearances, problems with speech. Is there anything you won't ridicule someone for? 

Are you actually from Liverpool? You don't act like most scousers I've met (although we haven't met).
		
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Well I used to be called sheep because I have curly hair as a kid and nickname in the forces was beaker because I hav a small head - but I don't jump on a high horse over the nicknames about my appearance because I realise it's banter and light hearted Mickey taking.

Have a quick read of Rawk if you want to see what the Liverpool FC call Woy - certainly a lot worse than owl face ! 

How do scousers act then to allow you to make a judgement that I'm different ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Two out of 3 matches played, and the  half term school report might say "lacks concentration and application."

Hart - showed serious moments of indecision 4/10.
Baines - a very poor first game but should improvement in the last game., 5/10
Jagielka - non-descript at best 3/10
Cahill - made some decent tackles but was exposed by the lack of a decent partner 5/10
Johnson - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game, but not good enough on the international stage, 4/10

Gerrard - lacking pace, poor tackling and passes going astray 4/10
Henderson - reminded me of Gerrard in his early years. Good positional play and lots of energy 6/10
Rooney - played out of position in the first game, not doing himself or Baines any favours. A better 2nd game. Good ball retention and decent distribution 6/10
Sterling - showed flashes of brilliance but far too often ran into a cul de sac and was surrounded by opposition players, who took the ball off him. In truth, too naive and a tournament too early 5/10
Sturridge - England's player of the tournament so far, though he hasn't had much to beat. Better service would have seen more goals, 7/10
Welbeck - better than expected, especially in the 2nd game 5/10
Lallana - limited opportunities but showed enough to suggest he's worth a good punt 5/10

So what would I have done differently? Terry and Cahill together, as much as I detest Terry as an individual you can't take away the fact he is still England's best CB. Midfield, a tough one... Lampard and Gerrard in midfield. And play Henderson in there to provide a more solid 3 in central midfield. Lampard to go forward up the left but also provide some steel in front of the LB.

The wrong blend of youth and experience, and the naivity was exposed on numerous occasions.
		
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My markings would be 

Hart - 4 

Johnson - 3 
Cahill - 5
JÃ¤gelkia - 3
Baines - 4

Gerrard - 5
Henderson - 6

Sterling - 7
Rooney - 5
Welbeck - 4

Sturridge - 7

Can't recall any of the subs making a difference but some where criminally under used 

Done differently ? 

Would have taken both Flanagan and Stones instead of Jones and Smalling 

Played 

Hart

Flanagan
Cahill
Stones
Shaw

Gerrard
Henderson
Oxlade

Sterling 
Sturridge
Lallana


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you fail to spot sarcasm 

Click to expand...

I can but I can also spot philliblustering.


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## Dodger (Jun 21, 2014)

The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.
		
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I need my meds increasing! I can't believe I agree with the best fisherman on here.


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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.
		
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Sadly the truth I'm afraid!


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## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.
		
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Hobbit said:



			I need my meds increasing! I can't believe I agree with the best fisherman on here.
		
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chrisd said:



			Sadly the truth I'm afraid!
		
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Well, you are in good company Joey Barton has recently said more or less the same....


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## Imurg (Jun 21, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, you are in good company Joey Barton has recently said more or less the same....
		
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It must be true then........!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 21, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.
		
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Good point and while we only have 32% of English players plying their trade in the PL the situation will only get worse. There are some decent players coming through like Barkley but I can't see England producing a competitive side soon. The likes of Sterling and Sturridge have the potential to progress but where are the others coming through and more importantly where is the strength in depth of a Germany, Italy, Argentina etc


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## bozza (Jun 21, 2014)

So after out poor World Cup display Rooney and Hart face the press today. 

Where's the Captain at!?  

If you're captain of your club/country you are the voice of the team and should attend all press conferences. 

That just sums Gerrard up, hiding when it all goes wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2014)

bozza said:



			So after out poor World Cup display Rooney and Hart face the press today. 

Where's the Captain at!?  

If you're captain of your club/country you are the voice of the team and should attend all press conferences. 

That just sums Gerrard up, hiding when it all goes wrong.
		
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So now he is getting stick for not going to a press conference ?!? Whatever next 

The players take it in turns to go to the press conferences - Gerrard and Lallana were at the last one and Gerrard faced the press after the game the other night.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 21, 2014)

Dodger said:



			The opinion of some that the likes of Sturridge, Baines, Henderson etc are great players is truly baffling.

These guys are just everyday footballers and there are dozens like them the world over. They are not as good as some appear to believe and this inflated opinion comes from the belief from many that the EPL is the world holy grail.

How many of the squad would make it into a world 22 squad??

None,not 1.
		
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Who has been calling them "great" players ?


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## 19thagain (Jun 21, 2014)

Well, for what it is worth Roy has a big decision to make .... window or aisle seat!


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## bozza (Jun 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So now he is getting stick for not going to a press conference ?!? Whatever next 

The players take it in turns to go to the press conferences - Gerrard and Lallana were at the last one and Gerrard faced the press after the game the other night.
		
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If I'm not mistaken Jags was the first player in the firing line after the Uruguay game? 

He's just been very quiet since our defeat on Thursday. 

He's happy to take the plaudits when it's going well but sticks his head in the sand when it hits the fan.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

bozza said:



			So after out poor World Cup display Rooney and Hart face the press today. 

Where's the Captain at!?  

If you're captain of your club/country you are the voice of the team and should attend all press conferences. 

That just sums Gerrard up, hiding when it all goes wrong.
		
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Doing a press conference today with the manager. Rumour on Sky was that he is going to tell us about his future with England but that may be rubbish. The press don't want the same people in the PCs all the time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

bozza said:



			If I'm not mistaken Jags was the first player in the firing line after the Uruguay game? 

He's just been very quiet since our defeat on Thursday. 

He's happy to take the plaudits when it's going well but sticks his head in the sand when it hits the fan.
		
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Sorry but this is getting pathetic - he spoke to the cameras straight. 

What else did you want him or any one else to do ?!

Yes Gerrard didn't play well - would you  like him executed ? 

Is Gerrard the first person to have a poor game for England ? Are the effigies of him being made already.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I need my meds increasing! I can't believe I agree with the best fisherman on here.
		
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Don't finish the bottle - leave some for me!

It was pretty obvious - and actually stated by many, the England's prospects in this WC were limited. The Draw didn't help either.

However, all that seems to have gone out the window when the tournament actually starts and fans seem to think that England should be semi/quarter finalists! Crazy imo!

I do think Gerrard had a couple of poor games and needs to step down as Captain. But there were signs of progress towards being 'class' players from some. England badly needs an effective defensive coach as there is so much wrong in that area! And effective defence is what wins games these days (unfortunately imo).


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Don't finish the bottle - leave some for me!

It was pretty obvious - and actually stated by many, the England's prospects in this WC were limited. The Draw didn't help either.

However, all that seems to have gone out the window when the tournament actually starts and fans seem to think that England should be semi/quarter finalists! Crazy imo!

I do think Gerrard had a couple of poor games and needs to step down as Captain. But there were signs of progress towards being 'class' players from some. *England badly needs an effective defensive coach* as there is so much wrong in that area! And effective defence is what wins games these days (unfortunately imo).
		
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The irony of that comment is that one of the things Hodgson got slagged off for was being an effective defensive coach who sets up not to lose rather than try to win. He has tried in this tournament to be more attacking and it hasn't worked and he has been let down by some schoolboy defending by players who should be better. You can coach defenders all you want but if they switch off there is nothing the coach can do about it.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but this is getting pathetic - he spoke to the cameras straight. 

What else did you want him or any one else to do ?!

Yes Gerrard didn't play well - would you  like him executed ? 

Is Gerrard the first person to have a poor game for England ? Are the effigies of him being made already.
		
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Not executed,but he should call it a day on his international career. Pretty sure you'd be saying the same if he played for any other club. 
:thup:


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## MegaSteve (Jun 22, 2014)

This time around the culture of over expectation has been a figment of the imagination of the media... Seen very few cars adorned with flags and even fewer homes which was not the case previously... Went telly shopping this week... Salesman advised there'll be some bargains to be had soon as they'd sold very few in the run up to the WC which [again] has not been the case previously...


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Don't finish the bottle - leave some for me!

It was pretty obvious - and actually stated by many, the England's prospects in this WC were limited. The Draw didn't help either.

However, all that seems to have gone out the window when the tournament actually starts and fans seem to think that England should be semi/quarter finalists! Crazy imo!

I do think Gerrard had a couple of poor games and needs to step down as Captain. But there were signs of progress towards being 'class' players from some. England badly needs an effective defensive coach *as there is so much wrong in that area! *And effective defence is what wins games these days (unfortunately imo).
		
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Like leaving one half of the best centre half pairing in the Premiership and the best defensive left back in the country at home?   Great decision by Woy & the FA. :clap:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Like leaving one half of the best centre half pairing in the Premiership and the best defensive left back in the country at home?   Great decision by Woy & the FA. :clap:
		
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Cole I think should have gone. JT needed to make the first move re England. He was immense last season, but there's only so many incidents you can come back from.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Cole I think should have gone. JT needed to make the first move re England. He was immense last season, but there's only so many incidents you can come back from.
		
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I'd say that depends on how hard they are gunning for you; I can think of others who have had easier passes for what I would consider worse transgressions, but I take your point.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Hodgson got mullered for being defensive when he took over and bit by bit added a more attacking flair to the side and now gets stick for being poor at the back. Only in England! Cole was a poor decision though and would have been much more solid at the back and given more going forward. Terry I'm afraid has had his day and too slow these days and would have been found out.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'd say that depends on how hard they are gunning for you; I can think of others who have had easier passes for what I would consider worse transgressions, but I take your point.
		
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Dont get me wrong. I think he should have been taken. I'd pick players on footballing reasons. The bridge incident was ridiculous, for all the morale moaning. Who'd of had bridge in their team anyway? The other incident, was just too messy.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hodgson got mullered for being defensive when he took over and bit by bit added a more attacking flair to the side and now gets stick for being poor at the back. Only in England! Cole was a poor decision though and would have been much more solid at the back and given more going forward. Terry I'm afraid has had his day and too slow these days and would have been found out.
		
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Suarez wouldn't have scored the 2nd goal with Terry playing as he would have read the situation better IMHO.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hodgson got mullered for being defensive when he took over and bit by bit added a more attacking flair to the side and now gets stick for being poor at the back. Only in England! Cole was a poor decision though and would have been much more solid at the back and given more going forward. Terry I'm afraid has had his day and too slow these days and would have been found out.
		
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And rightly so.

In the euros he had free reign expectations were as low as ever so there was no pressure on him. Even when he was defensive  England didn't look scoring and was happy to play for pens from the 1st whistle v Italy. 

The one thing he hasn't learned from that game is England need pace in the middle of the park ( Parker/Gerrard combo) so he threw paceless Gerrard and Henderson together 

He then used 2 strikers as wide men. Welbeck walked straight into that team after having a terrible season for club. Other players who have had better seasons were sitting on the bench. Then his substitutions were clueless and lacked purpose.

As for Cole/Terry not going you can't defend that decision when you've brought Smalling and Jones to replace them.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Suarez wouldn't have scored the 2nd goal with Terry playing as he would have read the situation better IMHO.
		
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Or taken him down outside the box. That's not me slagging JT, he'd have done what was needed. 

Not ot sure he's ever had pace tbf but reads game quite well.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

The FA is, like all the minor  F A's in the country are run by old duffers who haven't got a clue, that where the first clear out should be!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Hodgson playing attacking players doesn't automatically equal playing attacking tactics and attacking football 

It was still ten men behind the ball will Sturridge isolated - it was still Gerrard and Henderson on the toes of the CB , it's was still a safety and hard work approach with players like Welbeck playing instead of Lallana 

There was lots of talk of playing the Liverpool players but then not playing the same style - a high press against their back line , fullbacks as wingers - you leave yourself a bit open but you take the game to the Oppo - Hodgson didn't and won't do that and also won't change during the game - he never has been able to change things when things aren't going well. England players lack the ability to keep the ball and they don't have that extra something special

As for Terry and Cole - haven't they been to previous tournaments when England have achieved nothing ?


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Or taken him down outside the box. That's not me slagging JT, he'd have done what was needed. 

Not ot sure he's ever had pace tbf but reads game quite well.
		
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Exactly,  JT knows how to defend and sometimes that means taking one for the team.


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

Surely Gerrard isnt thinking of hanging on? Just retire now FFS.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Exactly,  JT knows how to defend and sometimes that means taking one for the team.
		
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Even if that means a red card???


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Even if that means a red card???
		
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In that situation, knowing we needed a draw, yes


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Even if that means a red card???
		
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Red card an maybe a point that keeps us in with a shout?


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Exactly,  JT knows how to defend and sometimes that means taking one for the team.
		
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Lawro was banging about terry the other saying we should have persuaded terry out of retirement. Im glad we didnt, altough probably not taking cole was an error.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hodgson got mullered for being defensive when he took over and bit by bit added a more attacking flair to the side and now gets stick for being poor at the back. Only in England!
		
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Did they show any real attacking flair? At least those that weren't in an outright attacking position in the first place!

Were they poor at the back?

Again, I believe that it's a timing problem. This WC was always going to be 'difficult' (read impossible) for England. The real test for Hodgson - and I think he's as good as anyone for the job - is the next Euros. But several of the 'old guard' have to go imo. Cole was merely the first of them - and maybe a mistake brought about by tactics (that never came to fruition!).


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...
		
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I'm certain he is retiring, I just don't think he'd want all the furore around him whilst they're still out in Brazil.

It wouldn't look good the captain bailing a sinking ship 2/3's the way through a competition.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm certain he is retiring, I just don't think he'd want all the furore around him whilst they're still out in Brazil.

It wouldn't look good the captain bailing a sinking ship 2/3's the way through a competition.
		
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I never mentioned him retiring,or himself..His tone,furrowed brow (quite good at that), and his appreciation of Uruguay says loads...Rooney was more open, honest and blunt about things...Things a Captain should say..I am not advocating Rooney as Captain neither.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Did they show any real attacking flair? At least those that weren't in an outright attacking position in the first place!

Were they poor at the back?

Again, I believe that it's a timing problem. This WC was always going to be 'difficult' (read impossible) for England. The real test for Hodgson - and I think he's as good as anyone for the job - is the next Euros. But several of the 'old guard' have to go imo. Cole was merely the first of them - and maybe a mistake brought about by tactics (that never came to fruition!).
		
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They were poor at the back, but I agree about the timing thing.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			I never mentioned him retiring,or himself..His tone,furrowed brow (quite good at that), and his appreciation of Uruguay says loads...Rooney was more open, honest and blunt about things...Things a Captain should say..I am not advocating Rooney as Captain neither.
		
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You really are bitter towards Gerrard aren't you.

How many "Erm's" did Rooney use throughout his presser?


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			You really are bitter towards Gerrard aren't you.

How many "Erm's" did Rooney use throughout his presser?
		
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No Stuart.Not bitter.I guess i just expected better.An English trait maybe.,but not bitter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			No Stuart.Not bitter.I guess i just expected better.An English trait maybe.,but not bitter.
		
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Stuart was right - you are bitter towards Gerrard and Liverpool players - it's clearly evident in your posts - but you're not on your own on here


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stuart was right - you are bitter towards Gerrard and Liverpool players - it's clearly evident in your posts - but you're not on your own on here
		
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& you never show bitterness towards other players/teams/managers I suppose
You were only too happy to slate Rooney,yet when anyone slates Gerrard you're not happy about it. Please!


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stuart was right - you are bitter towards Gerrard and Liverpool players - it's clearly evident in your posts - but you're not on your own on here
		
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There you go again,sticking it in again.You don't know me,and i don't know you,I am  not bitter,just have a difference of opinion, but you are always the one, making assumptions about folk..You could be a nice guy,like me maybe?...Have you thought about changing your medication?


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			& you never show bitterness towards other players/teams/managers I suppose
You were only too happy to slate Rooney,yet when anyone slates Gerrard you're not happy about it. Please!
		
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Cheers Pinseeker..Beginning to think i am in a club of one.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			just have a difference of opinion, but you are always the one, making assumptions about folk
		
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Differences of opinions not allowed


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As for Terry and Cole - haven't they been to previous tournaments when England have achieved nothing ?
		
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Haven't Lampard & Gerrard, yet they went?  There are probably others it applies to.  Please note I named Lampard first before you try & talk it down as an anti-Gerrard rant rather than a reasonable comment.



HawkeyeMS said:



			Exactly,  JT knows how to defend and sometimes that means taking one for the team.
		
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Spot on.



Papas1982 said:



			Or taken him down outside the box. That's not me slagging JT, he'd have done what was needed. 

Not ot sure he's ever had pace tbf but reads game quite well.
		
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Perfectly fair comment on all fronts, pace is the one department where he's been lacking, but his ability to read the game more than covered that.



Stuart_C said:



			As for Cole/Terry not going you can't defend that decision when you've brought Smalling and Jones to replace them.
		
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Couldn't have put that better myself. :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			There you go again,sticking it in again.You don't know me,and i don't know you,I am  not bitter,just have a difference of opinion, but you are always the one, making assumptions about folk..You could be a nice guy,like me maybe?...Have you thought about changing your medication?
		
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Only have to read back through your constant posts slagging of both Liverpool players ( second rate I believe you called them ) and the constant slagging of Gerrard. It's bit rocket science to join the dots. 

Everyone has difference of opinions - but sometimes they get clouded by bitterness towards certain things. You may not be bitter but you certainly have something against Liverpool


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			There you go again,sticking it in again.You don't know me,and i don't know you,I am  not bitter,just have a difference of opinion, but you are always the one, making assumptions about folk..You could be a nice guy,like me maybe?...Have you thought about changing your medication?
		
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I ended up putting LP on ignore, he posts complete guff, gets into arguements and then reports youto mods, he probably argues with his own shadow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Haven't Lampard & Gerrard, yet they went?  There are probably others it applies to.  Please note I named Lampard first before you try & talk it down as an anti-Gerrard rant rather than a reasonable comment.



Spot on.



Perfectly fair comment on all fronts, pace is the one department where he's been lacking, but his ability to read the game more than covered that.



Couldn't have put that better myself. :thup:
		
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It is a reasonable comment.

I personally would have liked Gerrard to retire after the last EC but he wanted to stay as Captain so could see the merit of going with one or two experienced old heads - maybe Terry should have been an old head instead of Lampard as he has been superb this season but believe he did burn his bridges with England. 

Hopefully will see Gerrard retire to concentrate on club football for his final years and let Barkley blossom in that role.


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

Note to All. John terry was unavailable for selection.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Surely Gerrard is being slated because of his woeful performances.
Pretty sure if Rooney played as bad in the Uruguay game as he did v Italy he would be the one getting the stick. 
But let's just pretend everyone's anti Gerrard:thup:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Surely Gerrard is being slated because of his woeful performances.
Pretty sure if Rooney played as bad in the Uruguay game as he did v Italy he would be the one getting the stick. 
But let's just pretend everyone's anti Gerrard:thup:
		
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That takes all the fun out of it for the loudest voice. I think Lampard will call it quits when he gets home, especially if he takes up the option to play in the US or Australia that are on the table. If he does, I would hope Gerrard may hold on for a little longer. Despite his under par performances so far in Brazil there is only really him and Rooney that you'd call the elder statesmen in the squad right now and every team needs a degree of nous in it. Even if he is in the squad and used sparingly, either starting and coming off or to add something to help up hold onto results away from home, he'll help bring other players on.


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

bozza said:



			So after out poor World Cup display Rooney and Hart face the press today. 

Where's the Captain at!?  

If you're captain of your club/country you are the voice of the team and should attend all press conferences. 

That just sums Gerrard up, hiding when it all goes wrong.
		
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My take on this is similar.
England had just been eliminated from the biggest tournament in Football! losing their 2 opening games.
I know they have a rota for the Press Conferences but I'd have expected Roy and StevieG to be the first to face the press to start the explanations off.
Pretty poor show from England all round....


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Note to All. John terry was unavailable for selection.
		
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Note to guest100718; if the FA had allowed it, he'd have gone, but they wouldn't.  The FA's attitude is what made him "unavailable" and Woy's line about him being unavailable because he's retired was the party line to deflect blame.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That takes all the fun out of it for the loudest voice. I think Lampard will call it quits when he gets home, especially if he takes up the option to play in the US or Australia that are on the table. If he does, I would hope Gerrard may hold on for a little longer. Despite his under par performances so far in Brazil there is only really him and Rooney that you'd call the elder statesmen in the squad right now and every team needs a degree of nous in it. Even if he is in the squad and used sparingly, either starting and coming off or to add something to help up hold onto results away from home, he'll help bring other players on.
		
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I was surprised Lampard got picked tbh. Think you're right & he will call it a day. He's had a decent international career but not half as good as for club,pretty similar to Gerrard IMO.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Note to guest100718; if the FA had allowed it, he'd have gone, but they wouldn't.  The FA's attitude is what made him "unavailable" and Woy's line about him being unavailable because he's retired was the party line to deflect blame.
		
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It's Roy


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stuart was right - you are bitter towards Gerrard and Liverpool players - it's clearly evident in your posts - but you're not on your own on here
		
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:rofl:

Have you considered that the *criticism* might actually be correct! 

Gerrard *was* poor, certainly by his standards. And I'm certain he will stand down as Captain (and Internationals) but - as per another poster - not until after the tournament. Not sure who will replace him as Rooney doesn't seem to be the one, though he could be just as effective as Beckham - who I didn't think was 'Captain material' either!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Note to guest100718; if the FA had allowed it, he'd have gone, but they wouldn't.  The FA's attitude is what made him "unavailable" and Woy's line about him being unavailable because he's retired was the party line to deflect blame.
		
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The FA should never dictate which players should play for the country - the manager should have free reign on who he selects but Woy is a yes man hence following the party line


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is a reasonable comment.

I personally would have liked Gerrard to retire after the last EC but he wanted to stay as Captain so could see the merit of going with one or two experienced old heads - maybe Terry should have been an old head instead of Lampard as he has been superb this season *but believe he did burn his bridges with England*. 

Hopefully will see Gerrard retire to concentrate on club football for his final years and let Barkley blossom in that role.
		
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I thought that the FA burnt their bridges with him; he was tried in a court of law, which is why the FA supposedly didn't act initially, found not guilty and then the FA change the rules and charge him.  Whereas others who have been found not guilty in court are welcomed back with open arms.


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## bozza (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpool fans seem to get really touchy when anyone dares to suggest their precious Stevie G is past it at international level. 

If a player from my team plays bad I'll happily accept the criticism of them, hence why I thought Jags was poor and got found out and Baines didn't play that well either. 

If you think Gerrard was anything other than poor at this World Cup you really need your head looking at.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The FA should never dictate which players should play for the country - the manager should have free reign on who he selects but Woy is a yes man hence following the party line
		
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That has never happened. The only manager that stood up to the FA was Ramsey. Please stop using "Woy" as it is just making fun of the guy's impediment. The yes man has always been picked. Why do you think Clough never got the job. Why do you think Redknapp never got it?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That has never happened. The only manager that stood up to the FA was Ramsey. Please stop using "Woy" as it is just making fun of the guy's impediment. The yes man has always been picked. Why do you think Clough never got the job. Why do you think Redknapp never got it?
		
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Tbf Redknapp never got it because he's a pants manager & supposedly a bit dodgy


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			I thought that the FA burnt their bridges with him; he was tried in a court of law, which is why the FA supposedly didn't act initially, found not guilty and then the FA change the rules and charge him.  Whereas others who have been found not guilty in court are welcomed back with open arms.
		
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Thought he also retired from International football but not sure if it was because he felt he wouldn't be picked to play alongside Rio Ferdinand ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Tbf Redknapp never got it because he's a pants manager & supposedly a bit dodgy

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Didn't stop Venables getting the gig and there has been rumours about his dodgy dealings. I do think he's been over hyped in terms of his managerial ability


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



*Surely Gerrard is being slated because of his woeful performances.*
Pretty sure if Rooney played as bad in the Uruguay game as he did v Italy he would be the one getting the stick. 
But let's just pretend everyone's anti Gerrard:thup:
		
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I agree his performances were awful by his standards and deserves the criticism that comes his way for on pitch performances not because of how he spoke at a press conference....

Quote from Rumpo...

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Didn't stop Venables getting the gig and there has been rumours about his dodgy dealings. I do think he's been over hyped in terms of his managerial ability
		
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At least Venables put round pegs in round holes for the benefit of the team unlike Mr Hodgson.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I agree his performances were awful by his standards and deserves the criticism that comes his way for on pitch performances not because of how he spoke at a press conference....

Quote from Rumpo...

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...
		
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Or because he wasn't at a press conference as was suggested early that he was hiding ?! 

He didn't play well - no one has suggested he did - but to be singled out is wrong but it's not surprising.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I agree his performances were awful by his standards and deserves the criticism that comes his way for on pitch performances not because of how he spoke at a press conference....

Quote from Rumpo...

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...
		
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I've never slated Gerrard as a person,purely due to his performances. & it's nothing to do with Liverpool,even tho some prefer to think it is.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I agree his performances were awful by his standards and deserves the criticism that comes his way for on pitch performances not because of how he spoke at a press conference....

Quote from Rumpo...

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...
		
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To be fair though Gerrard has never been comfy doing these interviews and having to deal with the added pressure and inevitable questions just made a hard task harder. I don't give a damn about these conferences and it just gives the press the ammunition for tomorrow headlines. I think he'd want to go home, discuss his future with the club, agent and family and then make a reasoned decision from there.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I agree his performances were awful by his standards and deserves the criticism that comes his way for on pitch performances not because of how he spoke at a press conference....

Quote from Rumpo...

Just seen Gerrard in press conference..His conviction to the cause was as good as his performance on the pitch..Alex can't wait to book holiday, and his England future is dependant on advice from others!!??!! Hmmm....Pathetic...
		
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Have you seen the press conference?..And if so did it fill you with confidence for our bright future?..Only 2 questions..Yea/Ney will suffice?..No who said, you said stuff allowed..


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Like leaving one half of the best centre half pairing in the Premiership and the best defensive left back in the country at home?   Great decision by *Woy* & the FA. :clap:
		
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His name is Roy ....................... with an R.
Take the mick by all means, but not out of people's afflictions.




Stuart_C said:



			And rightly so.

In the euros he had free reign expectations were as low as ever so there was no pressure on him. Even when he was defensive  England didn't look scoring and was happy to play for pens from the 1st whistle v Italy. 

The one thing he hasn't learned from that game is England need pace in the middle of the park ( Parker/Gerrard combo) so he threw paceless Gerrard and Henderson together 

He then used 2 strikers as wide men. Welbeck walked straight into that team after having a terrible season for club. Other players who have had better seasons were sitting on the bench. Then his substitutions were clueless and lacked purpose.
*
As for Cole/Terry not going* you can't defend that decision when you've brought Smalling and Jones to replace them.
		
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Cole I agree with Terry couldn't be selected because *HE HAS RETIRED!
*


Liverpoolphil said:



			Stuart was right - you are bitter towards Gerrard and Liverpool players - it's clearly evident in your posts - but you're not on your own on here
		
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Maybe he's trying to even things up with regards to the bias on this thread.
For what it's worth, I hope Gerrard does retire as he's way past his best and I don't think he'd be picked again anyway.


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or because he wasn't at a press conference as was suggested early that he was hiding ?! 

He didn't play well - no one has suggested he did - but to be singled out is wrong but it's not surprising.
		
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It's what happens in football Phil. You'd be the first to do it if it was Lampard or Carrick. I know I'm right & everyone else does. I'll leave it now before you go crying to the Mods & get me another warning:thup:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or because he wasn't at a press conference as was suggested early that he was hiding ?! 

He didn't play well - no one has suggested he did - but to be singled out is wrong but it's not surprising.
		
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There were the best part of 20 pages on Rooney being singled out the other day too. Didn't see you day that was wrong.......


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I've never slated Gerrard as a person,purely due to his performances. & it's nothing to do with Liverpool,even tho some prefer to think it is.
		
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I accept your opinion, i don't always agree  though but on Gerrard's performance nobody I've read on here is defending him not even LP.

On a side note, When Gerrard slipped up against Chelsea everybody was making fun out of him, i wonder how many where laughing when he set Luis up? I was pissing myself laughing to be honest:rofl:

Karma


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I accept your opinion, i don't always agree  though but on Gerrard's performance nobody I've read on here is defending him not even LP.

On a side note, When Gerrard slipped up against Chelsea everybody was making fun out of him, i wonder how many where laughing when he set Luis up? I was pissing myself laughing to be honest:rofl:

Karma 

Click to expand...

So what was so funny about it?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I accept your opinion, i don't always agree  though but on Gerrard's performance nobody I've read on here is defending him not even LP.

On a side note, When Gerrard slipped up against Chelsea everybody was making fun out of him, i wonder how many where laughing when he set Luis up? I was pissing myself laughing to be honest:rofl:

Karma 

Click to expand...

Aaaaaawwwww bless they were making fun of him


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Note to guest100718; if the FA had allowed it, he'd have gone, but they wouldn't.  The FA's attitude is what made him "unavailable" and Woy's line about him being unavailable because he's retired was the party line to deflect blame.
		
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Terry chose to call time on his England career, no one esle. Maybe he felt the FA had it in for him. He could have carried on playinmg but chose to make a statement instead.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			I thought that the FA burnt their bridges with him; he was tried in a court of law, which is why the FA supposedly didn't act initially, found not guilty and then *the FA change the rules and charge him*.  Whereas others who have been found not guilty in court are welcomed back with open arms.
		
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I think you are twisting things a little....

He was stripped of the Captaincy - and Capello resigned because of that - until after the trial; the trial found him not guilty of the criminal offence; he was charged by the FA under its rules; he retired from International Football; an FA hearing (that started the following day) found him guilty.

There were no changes of rules as far as I can see. Can you point out which ones were changed?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Terry chose to call time on his England career, no one esle. Maybe he felt the FA had it in for him. He could have carried on playinmg but chose to make a statement instead.
		
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Oh really?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...n-World-Cup-regrets-Roy-Hodgson.html#comments


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Have you seen the press conference?..And if so did it fill you with confidence for our bright future?..Only 2 questions..Yea/Ney will suffice?..No who said, you said stuff allowed..

Click to expand...

To be perfectly honest I've seen very very little of England or anything to do with them as i don't follow them and I've clearly stated that over the years. I'm still allowed an opinion though.

We all know that Gerrard is retiring after this comp and to me it was common knowledge so what he says or doesn't say in a press conference does really matter.

I quoted what you said as it seemed to me you were having a pop at Gerrard because of how he spoke at a press conference which is a cheap shot IMO.

All i want is all of the Liverpool players to get home injury free and go and have a well earned summer break and come back fighting for my club. 

International football is a complete joke, riddled with corruption and nobody will ever change it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I think you are twisting things a little....

He was stripped of the Captaincy - and Capello resigned because of that - until after the trial; the trial found him not guilty of the criminal offence; he was charged by the FA under its rules; he retired from International Football; an FA hearing (that started the following day) found him guilty.

There were no changes of rules as far as I can see. Can you point out which ones were changed?
		
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That's how I read it too. It's irrelevant as whatever the underlying reasons behind his decision, he's called time on international football and so was unavailable for selection


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## guest100718 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh really?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...n-World-Cup-regrets-Roy-Hodgson.html#comments

Click to expand...

oh really what? he retired end of. No daily mail trash changes that.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The FA should never dictate which players should play for the country - the manager should have free reign on who he selects but *Woy* is a yes man hence following the party line
		
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You just can't help yourself, can you.
Any other afflictions that you regularly mock, or just those connected to speech?
You really do have no class.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Or because he wasn't at a press conference as was suggested early that he was hiding ?! 

He didn't play well - no one has suggested he did - *but to be singled out is wrong* but it's not surprising.
		
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Because that's never happened to Rooney or Welbeck, has it?

*
Slime*.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That has never happened. The only manager that stood up to the FA was Ramsey. Please stop using "Woy" as it is just making fun of the guy's impediment. The yes man has always been picked. Why do you think Clough never got the job. Why do you think Redknapp never got it?
		
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Homer, see paragraph 6;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17942091

Fulham fan aren't you?

I see I've been called for this by a couple of people; fine, if it offends people that much I'll stop, but the irony of being pulled for it on a forum where my team's name and manager's name are frequently reduced to equally derogatory nicknames isn't lost on me.  So I'll be seeing that stop will I?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

People can be asked to come out of retirement to play again 

Scholes was asked by England and turned it down 


Expect if Terry was asked he would have played for England again but Woy was never going to ask him - The FA wouldn't like that


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Homer, see paragraph 6;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17942091

Fulham fan aren't you?

I see I've been called for this by a couple of people; fine, if it offends people that much I'll stop, but the irony of being pulled for it on a forum where my team's name and manager's name are frequently reduced to equally derogatory nicknames isn't lost on me.  So I'll be seeing that stop will I?
		
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Many names and people have had nicknames attached to them 

Woy is one that has been used for Hodgson for as long as I can remember - even back to the 90's when he turned up. It's part and parcel of football banter - Liverpool players and fans etc have had nicknames etc used towards as have we towards Chelsea fans or Man UTD fans or players etc. People were clearly trying to create something out of nothing when I was using it ( had a nice little gang surround me ). If Hodgson wants people to stop calling him Woy then people will.

*It hasn't ever bothered me. I'm used to it. And I'm sure it doesn't bother Roy. He is an incredibly well-read, intelligent man, he will take it as a jokeâ€*

Jonathan Ross (aka Wossy)


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			To be perfectly honest I've seen very very little of England or anything to do with them as i don't follow them and I've clearly stated that over the years. I'm still allowed an opinion though.

We all know that Gerrard is retiring after this comp and to me it was common knowledge so *what he says or doesn't say in a press conference does really matter.*

I quoted what you said as it seemed to me you were having a pop at Gerrard because of how he spoke at a press conference which is a cheap shot IMO.

All i want is all of the Liverpool players to get home injury free and go and have a well earned summer break and come back fighting for my club. 

*International football is a complete joke, riddled with corruption and nobody will ever change it.*

Click to expand...

Yes it does, he's the England captain. Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.

For international football read professional football, it really is pretty much the same.

*
Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Homer, see paragraph 6;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17942091

Fulham fan aren't you?

I see I've been called for this by a couple of people; fine, if it offends people that much I'll stop, but the irony of being pulled for it on a forum where my team's name and manager's name are frequently reduced to equally derogatory nicknames isn't lost on me.  So I'll be seeing that stop will I?
		
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Ive seen Chelsea called chelski? Are you comparing a that to mocking a speech impediment?

I personally couldn't care about the woy name calling. I just think it's used by some, as a way to make him look less of a manger just because his reign at a certain club wasn't fantastic. 

I still think of all the young English managers about none are more qualified than him. 

Who would everyone pick out curiosity?

the last time we went for a young English coach with a proven record was McClaren. Ended well that didn't it?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			So what was so funny about it?
		
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Gerrard set his club team mate up Luis Suarez with a flick on and his club team mate  Luis Suarez who plays for the opposition went and scored and knocked Gerrards team out of the world cup!

7 weeks ago Gerrard slipped and handed city the title  and everybody was ripping him, i wonder how many of those fans were mocking him against Uruguay??

Surely you can understand this......


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Homer, see paragraph 6;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17942091

Fulham fan aren't you?

I see I've been called for this by a couple of people; fine, if it offends people that much I'll stop, but the irony of being pulled for it on a forum where my team's name and manager's name are frequently reduced to equally derogatory nicknames isn't lost on me.  So I'll be seeing that stop will I?
		
Click to expand...

I am a Fulham fan and still didn't like our own fans using it. There was a lot of others that shared my views too. Just don't see it being big or clever to make fun of anyone with an affliction. That aside I still wish he'd come back to Craven Cottage. Best manager since McDonald in my opinion at the club


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I think you are twisting things a little....

He was stripped of the Captaincy - and Capello resigned because of that - until after the trial; the trial found him not guilty of the criminal offence; he was charged by the FA under its rules; he retired from International Football; an FA hearing (that started the following day) found him guilty.

There were no changes of rules as far as I can see. Can you point out which ones were changed?
		
Click to expand...

Change is possibly the wrong choice of words, however

The FA's Disciplinary Regulations, at 6.8, states that,_"In any proceedings before a Regulatory Commission, the Regulatory Commission shall not be obliged to follow the strict rules of evidence, may admit such evidence as it thinks fit and record such evidence such weight as it thinks appropriate in all the circumstances. Where the subject matter of complaint or matter before the Regulatory Commission has been the subject of previous civil or criminal proceedings, *the result of such proceedings and the facts and matters upon which such result is based shall be presumed to be correct and the facts presumed to be true unless it is shown, by clear and convincing evidence, that this is not the case."
*__
So the basic premise is that if the FA leave it to the court of law & the court of law says it is not guilty then the FA leave it alone.  But they didn't._


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*It hasn't ever bothered me. I'm used to it. And I'm sure it doesn't bother Roy. He is an incredibly well-read, intelligent man, he will take it as a jokeâ€*

Jonathan Ross (aka Wossy)
		
Click to expand...

If Ross says it then it must be gospel. Another person over paid for doing very little and who shouldn't be back on TV after the Sachs debacle. That said, enough from me (although I doubt others) as it takes away from the discussion on England which is the topic of the thread


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			To be perfectly honest I've seen very very little of England or anything to do with them as i don't follow them and I've clearly stated that over the years. I'm still allowed an opinion though.

We all know that Gerrard is retiring after this comp and to me it was common knowledge so what he says or doesn't say in a press conference does really matter.

I quoted what you said as it seemed to me you were having a pop at Gerrard because of how he spoke at a press conference which is a cheap shot IMO.

All i want is all of the Liverpool players to get home injury free and go and have a well earned summer break and come back fighting for my club. 

International football is a complete joke, riddled with corruption and nobody will ever change it.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of claptrap.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Ive seen Chelsea called chelski? Are you comparing a that to mocking a speech impediment?

I personally couldn't care about the woy name calling. I just think it's used by some, as a way to make him look less of a manger just because his reign at a certain club wasn't fantastic. 

I still think of all the young English managers about none are more qualified than him. 

Who would everyone pick out curiosity?

the last time we went for a young English coach with a proven record was McClaren. Ended well that didn't it?
		
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McClaren proven ?! In what way ? A league cup. 

Hodgson - won nothing of note in his career 

The reason why the get picked is because they are English and won't rock the boat 

Both managers produce England's worst performances since 1980 

If the FA only want to look at English then go to Southgate along with Pearce - and then let them bring in their U21 en mass and build from there


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Slime said:



			His name is Roy ....................... with an R.
Take the mick by all means, but not out of people's afflictions.




Cole I agree with Terry couldn't be selected because *HE HAS RETIRED!*


*Slime*.
		
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Terry is a proud Englishman and I'm pretty certain if he was approached to go to Brazil he would've.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



Gerrard set his club team mate up Luis Suarez with a flick on and his club team mate  Luis Suarez who plays for the opposition went and scored and knocked Gerrards team out of the world cup!

7 weeks ago Gerrard slipped and handed city the title  and everybody was ripping him, i wonder how many of those fans were mocking him against Uruguay??

Surely you can understand this......
		
Click to expand...

Surely you can see the difference. Club/country. Come on mate it's really not that hard. 
I laughed when he slipped v Chelsea & handed it to City. 
I didn't laugh when he gave it to Uruguay because I'm English.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



*What a load of claptrap*.
		
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Its my honest opinion.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Surely you can see the difference. Club/country. Come on mate it's really not that hard. 
I laughed when he slipped v Chelsea & handed it to City. 
I didn't laugh when he gave it to Uruguay because I'm English.
		
Click to expand...

And i laughed the other night because England as a football team i have no passion for.

Club over Country everyday of the week


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			And i laughed the other night because England as a football team i have no passion for.

*Club over Country everyday of the week*

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

I enjoyed catching up on this thread.

It really is remarkable that a person that cares so little about his national side has so,so much to say about said national side.

Astonishing stuff.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Club over Country everyday of the week
		
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To a point I agree but I am still a proud Englishman. We get precious little chance to be proud (no St Georges crosses allowed to fly etc) and it is in sport that we normally get a chance for some national pride. Shame the cricket, football and rugby not quite going our way. I'd rather Fulham was back in the PL but I will support England and the players the manager picks


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Slime said:



			You just can't help yourself, can you.
Any other afflictions that you regularly mock, or just those connected to speech?
You really do have no class.



Because that's never happened to Rooney or* Welbeck,* has it?

*
Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly Slime, do you really believe Welbeck deserved to be near that squad and  it goes for few others too after there woeful season last year?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			McClaren proven ?! In what way ? A league cup. 

Hodgson - won nothing of note in his career 

The reason why the get picked is because they are English and won't rock the boat 

Both managers produce England's worst performances since 1980 

If the FA only want to look at English then go to Southgate along with Pearce - and then let them bring in their U21 en mass and build from there
		
Click to expand...

firstly, mclarens one fa cup puts him above Pearce and southgate I belive. 

Secondly he had a big impact at UTD as a coach. 

I was was simply saying that that was the last time England went for a young English coach and it failed. Pearce and southgate have done nithing of any note to warrant the England managers job. 

Mclaren has has since shown that he can rebuild his career and has done good work at clubs since. 

Did id you see last years u21's and why Pearce is no longer in a job.......


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Homer, see paragraph 6;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17942091

Fulham fan aren't you?

I see I've been called for this by a couple of people; fine, if it offends people that much I'll stop, but the irony of being pulled for it on a forum where my team's name and manager's name are frequently reduced to equally derogatory nicknames isn't lost on me.  So I'll be seeing that stop will I?
		
Click to expand...

Fulham fan here as well, that doesn't mean I agreed with other fans calling him that. It's actually a pretty pointless thing to bring up are are we all guilty by association?


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Ive seen Chelsea called chelski? Are you comparing a that to mocking a speech impediment?

I personally couldn't care about the woy name calling. I just think it's used by some, as a way to make him look less of a manger just because his reign at a certain club wasn't fantastic. 

I still think of all the young English managers about none are more qualified than him. 
*
Who would everyone pick out curiosity?*

the last time we went for a young English coach with a proven record was McClaren. Ended well that didn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Roy Hodgson.


*Slime*.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To a point I agree but I am still a proud Englishman. We get precious little chance to be proud (no St Georges crosses allowed to fly etc) and it is in sport that we normally get a chance for some national pride. Shame the cricket, football and rugby not quite going our way. I'd rather Fulham was back in the PL but I will support England and the players the manager picks
		
Click to expand...

You're entitled to be a proud englishman and maybe if the country was ran properly(that's another thread) then their maybe more.

I'm more proud of my city than my country.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Honestly Slime, do you really believe Welbeck deserved to be near that squad and  it goes for few others too after there woeful season last year?
		
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Can I ask who the few others were?


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Honestly Slime, do you really believe Welbeck deserved to be near that squad and  it goes for few others too after there woeful season last year?
		
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Yes.


*Slime*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

United played poorly and under performed but Welbeck does have youth, speed and ability and isn't the future what we're talking about. I think he has potential but doesn't produce it week in and week out which is what makes him (and others) so frustrating. Walcott is another prime example


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Dodger said:



			I enjoyed catching up on this thread.

It really is remarkable that a person that cares so little about his national side has so,so much to say about said national side.

Astonishing stuff.
		
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A bit like a Proud Scotchman having an opinion on English football i suppose.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			And i laughed the other night because England as a football team i have no passion for.

Club over Country everyday of the week
		
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Even funnier that your club won nothing then


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			firstly, mclarens one fa cup puts him above Pearce and southgate I belive. 

Secondly he had a big impact at UTD as a coach. 

I was was simply saying that that was the last time England went for a young English coach and it failed. Pearce and southgate have done nithing of any note to warrant the England managers job. 

Mclaren has has since shown that he can rebuild his career and has done good work at clubs since. 

Did id you see last years u21's and why Pearce is no longer in a job.......
		
Click to expand...

It's a league cup 

But that doesn't mean he is a better manager 

Rijkaard , Klinsman , Van Basten , Voller all given national manager jobs without any experience at club level 

The under 21's got to the final against Germany and got beat by at team full of full international players ( many at the WC ) now - last summer our Under 21's had a total of 24 players pull out .


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Slime said:



			Yes.


*Slime*.
		
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I take that as an honest opinion but don't agree.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Even funnier that your club won nothing then
View attachment 11161

Click to expand...

Nah nothing was funnier than Luis scoring the winner!


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			And i laughed the other night because England as a football team i have no passion for.

Club over Country everyday of the week
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			:thup:
		
Click to expand...

..Wonder if thoughts like these of the supporters of LFC are shared by the players who represent their country?...Poor show.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I take that as an honest opinion but don't agree.
		
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Whilst players and managers who aren't international standard continue to pick by England and the FA then they will never get anywhere.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			..Wonder if thoughts like these of the supporters of LFC are shared by the players who represent their country?...Poor show.
		
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I really do hope so, though when you've got players in the squad that weren't born here it makes you wonder...


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Nah nothing was funnier than Luis scoring the winner!
		
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Really????
:rofl:
Thing is England never had it to throw away
Always next season pal.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's a league cup 

But that doesn't mean he is a better manager 

Rijkaard , Klinsman , Van Basten , Voller all given national manager jobs without any experience at club level 

The under 21's got to the final against Germany and got beat by at team full of full international players ( many at the WC ) now - last summer our Under 21's had a total of 24 players pull out .
		
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McClaren has managed round Europe and done well, he also coached well before getting jobs as a manager. 
pearce has managed and been useless, his last role as England manager ended as a failure. Pull outs or not he failed. 

If you wish to compare the names above to Pearce and southgate go ahead. But just because they did well doesn't prove that the two you name will. Will they be passionate yes, will they be tactically astute?

tbf you'd take anyone over Hodgson so I'm not surprised, but I'd rather managers that have proven themselves, however little credence you want to give to cups he still won it. Wasn't he in charge of their European cup run too?


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whilst players and managers who aren't international standard continue to pick by England and the FA then they will never get anywhere.
		
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What players would you have picked that weren't LP? Which English manager is "International standard"? Hoddle?

Terry and Cole wouldn't have made a massive difference IMO. England are so poor at keeping the ball they rarely looked like creating anything.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

McClaren has won national titles abroad. Hodgson has won league titles abroad and managed other national sides. Pearce was found wanting at U21 level and Southgate has hardly a successfully as a manager. If Hodgson stays, at least for now, represents a degree of stability and gives him a chance to see what senior players call it a day and build and replace for the future. The EC campaign gives him a chance to play younger players, build a youthful side for the finals and give them tournament experience in qualifying.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			McClaren has managed round Europe and done well, he also coached well before getting jobs as a manager. 
pearce has managed and been useless, his last role as England manager ended as a failure. Pull outs or not he failed. 

If you wish to compare the names above to Pearce and southgate go ahead. But just because they did well doesn't prove that the two you name will. Will they be passionate yes, will they be tactically astute?

tbf you'd take anyone over Hodgson so I'm not surprised, but I'd rather managers that have proven themselves, however little credence you want to give to cups he still won it. Wasn't he in charge of their European cup run too?
		
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Again what exactly has Hodgson won ? 

McClaren proved how inept he was when he got the job 

Hodgson have proved how inept he is as he continues with the job 

Accepting these type of people as manager is half of what is wrong with the England Football team


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again what exactly has Hodgson won ? 

McClaren proved how inept he was when he got the job 

Hodgson have proved how inept he is as he continues with the job 

Accepting these type of people as manager is half of what is wrong with the England Football team
		
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What has Rodgers won?

Yet you bandy him around as he's some sort of managerial wizard!


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again what exactly has Hodgson won ? 

McClaren proved how inept he was when he got the job 

Hodgson have proved how inept he is as he continues with the job 

Accepting these type of people as manager is half of what is wrong with the England Football team
		
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Only one answer for it and it'll be right up your strasse.......Sir Alex.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			McClaren has won national titles abroad. Hodgson has won league titles abroad and managed other national sides. Pearce was found wanting at U21 level and Southgate has hardly a successfully as a manager. If Hodgson stays, at least for now, represents a degree of stability and gives him a chance to see what senior players call it a day and build and replace for the future. The EC campaign gives him a chance to play younger players, build a youthful side for the finals and give them tournament experience in qualifying.
		
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Is that the same stability after the last EC when Hodgson was suppose to change things and build a youthful side for the finals and give them tournament experience ? 

Stuart Pearce for the under 21's took them too a final and semi final in the Euros U21's - if that is found wanting then what is success


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



*What has Rodgers won?
*
Yet you bandy him around as he's some sort of managerial wizard!
		
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: .............................................. :thup:


*Slime*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Hodgson won five (or is it six) titles with Malmo. League success with FC Copenhagen. Never let facts get in the way then


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			And i laughed the other night because England as a football team i have no passion for.

Club over Country everyday of the week
		
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Probably the saddest post I've read on the forum!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			What has Rodgers won?

Yet you bandy him around as he's some sort of managerial wizard!
		
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Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			What has Rodgers won?

Yet you bandy him around as he's some sort of managerial wizard!
		
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Damn you Jocko!!!
I'd just looked that up so I could post it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hodgson won five (or is it six) titles with Malmo. League success with FC Copenhagen. Never let facts get in the way then
		
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Which are the equivalent of winning in Scotland - shall we have Lennon as manager then ?


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again what exactly has Hodgson won ? 

McClaren proved how inept he was when he got the job 

Hodgson have proved how inept he is as he continues with the job 


Accepting these type of people as manager is half of what is wrong with the England Football team
		
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After the italy game. Many people pundits, fans and players accepted we played well. Misfurtune cock up aside and we would still be in with a chance in this one.

You slate hodgson and mclaren and yet advocate two people who has the sum of zero credentils as manager.

I am not saying that either mclaren or hodgson are saviours but both are clearly better than the two you mention.

Re Mclaren proving he was useless as his time with england was poor. Capello didn't set the world on fire, is he a useless manaer too?


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )
		
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But going by you're criteria, Hodgson and McLaren has won more then? Yes?

I've nothing against Rodgers and quite like him fwiw, you're double standards just amuse me


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## Birchy (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again what exactly has Hodgson won ? 

McClaren proved how inept he was when he got the job 

Hodgson have proved how inept he is as he continues with the job 

Accepting these type of people as manager is half of what is wrong with the England Football team
		
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Come on Phil we had Capello who has won stuff everywhere but he couldnt get a tune out of our mob. We have spent a bomb on top managers and its still hasnt paid off.

After watching this world cup i firmly believe its all down the the mentality. Our players are beat before they get there imo.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )
		
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Rogers has won???

Here is Hodgson's record
Swedish League: 1976, 1979 (Halmstad); 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989 (Malmo).

Swedish Cup: 1985-86, 1988-89 (Malmo).

Danish League: 2000-01 (FC Copenhagen).

Danish Cup: 2000-01 (FC Copenhagen).

UEFA Cup: runner-up 1996-97 (Inter Milan).

Europa League: runner-up 2009-10 (Fulham)

Give it a rest Phil. You are trying (again) to twist stuff to fit. Hodgson took a club with no funds (unlike Liverpool) to a Euro final and technically we were the best British club in Europe that season


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## Papas1982 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )
		
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Totally irrelevant, however impressive it may seem. You want us to name managers with credentials. Yet BR has still won as much as them. I'm not sure "took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )" is really gonna turn heads on a cv. 2nd place is still just the first loser.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			What players would you have picked that weren't LP? Which English manager is "International standard"? Hoddle?

Terry and Cole wouldn't have made a massive difference IMO. England are so poor at keeping the ball they rarely looked like creating anything.
		
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Why does the manager have to be "English" - best manager England have had since Bobby is Sven - out of the last 5 English England managers 3 were the worst in history 

Welbeck is not International standard , neither is lambert , nor Milner ,  nor JÃ¤gelkia , nor Johnson ,


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )
		
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So he finished 2nd & trophy less with one of the biggest teams in the world. Amazing. 
Finishing 8th was underachieving :thup:
If you're happy that's all that matters.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Totally irrelevant, however impressive it may seem. You want us to name managers with credentials. Yet BR has still won as much as them. I'm not sure "took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )" is really gonna turn heads on a cv. 2nd place is still just the first loser.
		
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Irrelevance will be ignored. 35 pages prove that!


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 22, 2014)

Will Liverpool be playing the "were happy just to make top 4" card again this season? 
Or are you expecting to kick on?


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does the manager have to be "English" - best manager England have had since Bobby is Sven - out of the last 5 English England managers 3 were the worst in history 

Welbeck is not International standard , neither is lambert , nor Milner ,  nor JÃ¤gelkia , nor Johnson ,
		
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I agree they're not top level players, I asked who you would have picked in their place?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			But going by you're criteria, Hodgson and McLaren has won more then? Yes?

I've nothing against Rodgers and quite like him fwiw, you're double standards just amuse me 

Click to expand...


Rodgers isn't England manager nor is he being touted as one - he is our manager who is moving the club in the right direction despite his relative inexperience and still makes mistakes that need to looked at.

Hodgson has been managing for decades now and his highlights include a couple of finals - taking prem champions and turning them into relegation candidates and keep teams in the prem.


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

Sven, Capello, Venables, Robson etc etc - they all won Jack with England!
Only Ramsey has won anything...

Regardless of who the Manager is they are marked by the quality of players available to them - Roy's choices haven't exactly been wide have they...

And I look forward to seeing you in the dugout when Roy goes - you obviously know far more about an England team that you don't support than the rest of humanity put together.
I expect at least a Euro success and a WC Final spot next time........


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hodgson has been managing for decades now and his highlights include a couple of finals - taking prem champions and turning them into relegation candidates and keep teams in the prem.
		
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Read post #1055 He has won stuff. More than Rogers, and all the others you name. Facts Phil. Facts


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Funny in it?

The people who don't support the national team, have the most to say about them. What sickens me is that anyone would rather claim a bunch of foreign imports are more important to them, especially given that the ones who spend the most money buys the league. I personally can't comprehend why people wouldn't support their country at all, let alone put country before club


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rogers has won???

Here is Hodgson's record
Swedish League: 1976, 1979 (Halmstad); 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989 (Malmo).

Swedish Cup: 1985-86, 1988-89 (Malmo).

Danish League: 2000-01 (FC Copenhagen).

Danish Cup: 2000-01 (FC Copenhagen).

UEFA Cup: runner-up 1996-97 (Inter Milan).

Europa League: runner-up 2009-10 (Fulham)

Give it a rest Phil. You are trying (again) to twist stuff to fit. Hodgson took a club with no funds (unlike Liverpool) to a Euro final and technically we were the best British club in Europe that season
		
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He also took a Prem Title winning team and watch the get relegated 

For a manager who has been in the game for decades ( 30 plus years ) he has kept clubs in the prem , won minor titles and got to a final - he has also managed at big clubs and failed.

Being a Fulham fan he is perfect for you - would expect England fans to have a lot higher expectations.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rogers has won???

Here is Hodgson's record

*UEFA Cup: runner-up 1996-97 (Inter Milan).

Europa League: runner-up 2009-10 (Fulham)*

Give it a rest Phil. You are trying (again) to twist stuff to fit. Hodgson took a club with no funds (unlike Liverpool) to a Euro final and technically we were the best British club in Europe that season
		
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Coming 2nd doesn't count though it does add to the he's a failure point:smirk:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Totally irrelevant, however impressive it may seem. You want us to name managers with credentials. Yet BR has still won as much as them. I'm not sure "took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem ( never been done before in the CL era )" is really gonna turn heads on a cv. 2nd place is still just the first loser.
		
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I don't want BR to be England manager - so yes he is irrelevant 

I haven't asked you to name anyone


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He also took a Prem Title winning team and watch the get relegated 

For a manager who has been in the game for decades ( 30 plus years ) he has kept clubs in the prem , won minor titles and got to a final - he has also managed at big clubs and failed.

Being a Fulham fan he is perfect for you - would expect England fans to have a lot higher expectations.
		
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Is that not the problem though.

With the players you have why on earth would you have "higher expectations"?

You seem to be an England fan, regardless of what you claim!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Irrelevance will be ignored. 35 pages prove that!
		
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Homer I believe you have stated on a number occasions that you wish not to get involved in little tit for tat digs on the forum - yet you keep posting messages doing that exact thing.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Funny in it?

The people who don't support the national team, have the most to say about them. What sickens me is that anyone would rather claim a bunch of *foreign imports *are more important to them, especially given that the ones who spend the most money buys the league. I personally can't comprehend why people wouldn't support their country at all, let alone put country before club
		
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Its only an opinion Chris, what about the foreign import who played in both of Englands defeats?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He also took a Prem Title winning team and watch the get relegated 

For a manager who has been in the game for decades ( 30 plus years ) he has kept clubs in the prem , won minor titles and got to a final - he has also managed at big clubs and failed.

Being a Fulham fan he is perfect for you - would expect England fans to have a lot higher expectations.
		
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Phil

For pitys sake stop trying to twist it again. A lot of managers have failure as well as success but you can't deny he has won significant titles, managed at the highest level at club and national level and has tasted success. I WONT comment on his time at Liverpool as this will drag the thread down even further.

Can you not accept that others don't share your views and accept these without having to question and try and counter argue every point?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Read post #1055 He has won stuff. More than Rogers, and all the others you name. Facts Phil. Facts
		
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He is a fact for you Homer - under Hodgson - England have had their worst performance in a finals , first time they exit after just two games.

Hodgson has won minor titles in minor countries on the football map - those are facts homer


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			I agree they're not top level players, I asked who you would have picked in their place?
		
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Gone for the youngsters 

Stones instead of JÃ¤gelkia
Barkley and Flanagan playing - also Lallana


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Poor form having a dig at Brendan Rodgers.

As a football fan Hodgson and HIS team have failed. Fact


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a fact for you Homer - under Hodgson - England have had their worst performance in a finals , first time they exit after just two games.
		
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Do you really think another Manager would have made a difference????

If so - who?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a fact for you Homer - under Hodgson - England have had their worst performance in a finals , first time they exit after just two games.

Hodgson has won minor titles in minor countries on the football map - those are facts homer
		
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First time since 1958 I think you'll find that they haven't qualified from the group stage. Fact. He has still won more than Rogers and taken Inter to European Finals. As I said, you continue to counter argue. I'm out as its getting boring and you aren't prepared to accept mine or any other view...AGAIN.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Phil

For pitys sake stop trying to twist it again. A lot of managers have failure as well as success but you can't deny he has won significant titles, managed at the highest level at club and national level and has tasted success. I WONT comment on his time at Liverpool as this will drag the thread down even further.

Can you not accept that others don't share your views and accept these without having to question and try and counter argue every point?
		
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Significant titles ?! Like what ? 

Tasted success ?! 

What about his time at Blackburn ?


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Do you really think another Manager would have made a difference????

If so - who?
		
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Sir Alex would be the only option.Either him or Pep.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Its only an opinion Chris, what about the foreign import who played in both of Englands defeats?
		
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There are qualification rules across the world as to who plays for which country so whoever you're referring to is no different to Costa playing for Spain etc and perfectly legitimate

Not supporting your country is, to me, disgraceful but that us  " it's only an opinion" !!


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Rodgers hasn't won anything yet but has already had a better prem season in his short managerial period than either McClaren or *Hodgson and took a team from 8th to 2nd in the prem (never been done before in the CL era*)
		
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Oooooohhhhhh. 
8th to 2nd in one season ........................ an improvement of 6 places ...................... and never been done before.
Cobblers. Pulis moved Palace from 19th to 11th in just half a season ............................ an improvement of 8 places.


Just sayin'

*Slime*.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a fact for you Homer - under Hodgson - England have had their worst performance in a finals , first time they exit after just two games.

Hodgson has won minor titles in minor countries on the football map - those are facts homer
		
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Why are you so bitter towards Roy Hodgson..?You are always slating him.It is clear you are always having a pop at him when you join the dots up from all your rants Sherlock..


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			First time since 1958 I think you'll find that they haven't qualified from the group stage. Fact. He has still won more than Rogers and taken Inter to European Finals. As I said, you continue to counter argue. I'm out as its getting boring and you aren't prepared to accept mine or any other view...AGAIN.
		
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Did you read my fact - will say it again 

First time England have exit the WC after the first two games 

In 1958 they drew all three games and were not out until after the final group game. 

Bringing Rodgers into it doesn't change the fact that Hodgson has failed at a big job again


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			There are qualification rules across the world as to who plays for which country so whoever you're referring to is no different to Costa playing for Spain etc and perfectly legitimate

Not supporting your country is, to me, disgraceful but that us  *" it's only an opinion"* !!
		
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Bit of double standards here i think with regards to foreigners....

That's fine but a bit like the Ashes winning side with the South African players, it leaves a bad taste.

The qualification rules are pathetic aswell. Across the globe i.e.;Portugal/Brazil etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Do you really think another Manager would have made a difference????

If so - who?
		
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I believe a different manager would have tried something different in terms of setting up the team and giving it a go 

Who - 

Take your pick from anyone 

I would like to see England follow along the lines of giving ex players a go 

Clough I believe has the right way of thinking 

Southgate 

Or go all out and get in someone like Klopp


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			That's fine but a bit like the Ashes winning side with the South African players, it leaves a bad taste.

The qualification rules are pathetic aswell. Across the globe i.e.;Portugal/Brazil etc
		
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So a player can be bought from anywhere in the world to play for whichever club will buy them but anyone who qualifies using internationally laid down rules to play for a country makes you pleased that England have been knocked out and you won't support them 

mmmmmm great standards!


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## Rumpokid (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe a different manager would have tried something different in terms of setting up the team and giving it a go 

Who - 

Take your pick from anyone 

I would like to see England follow along the lines of giving ex players a go 

Clough I believe has the right way of thinking 

Southgate 

Or go all out and get in someone like Klopp
		
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Hands off Cloughie Jr...Afterall,he only manages a 'tinpot club' quoted by one of your illustrious followers..


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe a different manager would have tried something different in terms of setting up the team and giving it a go 

Who - 

Take your pick from anyone 

I would like to see England follow along the lines of giving ex players a go 

*Clough I believe has the right way of thinking* 

Southgate 

Or go all out and get in someone like Klopp
		
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Priceless.

It's like reading the Bino.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would like to see England follow along the lines of giving ex players a go
		
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Even though you don't care about England?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			So a player can be bought from anywhere in the world to play for whichever club will buy them but anyone who qualifies using internationally laid down rules to play for a country makes you pleased that England have been knocked out and you won't support them 

mmmmmm great standards!
		
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How do feel about arguably Englands best future star being born in Kingston,Jamaica?

Are you not supporting a foreigner as an England fan?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Even though you don't care about England?
		
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I have no interest in going over this time and time again ok.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			Why are you so bitter towards Roy Hodgson..?You are always slating him.It is clear you are always having a pop at him when you join the dots up from all your rants Sherlock..
		
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Just be grateful he's now calling him Hodgson, perhaps he's warming to the man!


*Slime*.


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Clough I believe has the right way of thinking 

Southgate
		
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And they've won ....what?

You're slagging off the current Manager because he hasn't won anything and yet 2 suggestions you put forward as a replacement have barely won any games between them.
You need to make your mind up!


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			How do feel about arguably Englands best future star being born in Kingston,Jamaica?

Are you not supporting a foreigner as an England fan?
		
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Mmmmm I'm not sure that I like the way you are going with this, but, I repeat - a player can only play for England under strict qualifying rules so I'm. cool with it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			And they've won ....what?

You're slagging off the current Manager because he hasn't won anything and yet 2 suggestions you put forward as a replacement have barely won any games between them.
You need to make your mind up!
		
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I'm guessing you ignored the point when I said I would like to see them follow the same methods as seen by both Germany and Holland and look towards ex players as opposed to managers who have been around for 30 years and amounted to very little.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no interest in going over this time and time again ok.
		
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You don't need to Phil, we all know that you don't support your country but have plenty to say about them, their manager and players.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			You don't need to Phil, we all know that you don't support your country but have plenty to say about them, their manager and players.
		
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I do support my country - don't support the England football team at the moment and haven't done since 2000 or so 

I'm sure I can show an opinion though ? 

Many on here don't support Liverpool or Suarez yet certainly have plenty to say about both


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you ignored the point when I said I would like to see them follow the same methods as seen by both Germany and Holland and look towards ex players as opposed to managers who have been around for 30 years and amounted to very little.
		
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Pearce has already managed the U21 to limited effect.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2014)

Hodgson is the best England manager since Hoddle.
That is why the FA want to hold on to him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pearce has already managed the U21 to limited effect.
		
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One final and one semi final in three tournaments at the Euro 21's - is that limited ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hodgson is the best England manager since Hoddle.
That is why the FA want to hold on to him.
		
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Yet has produced the worst results since Hoddle ?


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you ignored the point when I said I would like to see them follow the same methods as seen by both Germany and Holland and look towards ex players as opposed to managers who have been around for 30 years and amounted to very little.
		
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BUT THEY'VE WON NOTHING - NONE OF THEM
BY YOUR STANDARDS THEY'RE THE SAME AS HODGESON...

but you're not listening...........


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Mmmmm I'm not sure that I like the way you are going with this, but, I repeat - a player can only play for England under strict qualifying rules so I'm. cool with it!
		
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What is so wrong with the question? I'll simplify it for you.

Raheem Sterling was born in Kingston, Jamaica.

Yes he qualifies as a british citizen( and by the looks of the government, its not hard) as he was brought here at about the age of 10.

Is he still not a "foreigner" as he's not technically "Home Grown".

There's nothing sinister/racist/fascist or anything else YOU MAY misconstrued it to be.

Btw, these football eligibility rules are only to favour the premier league.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hodgson is the best England manager since Hoddle.
That is why the FA want to hold on to him.
		
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Good point. Hoddle made a mistake of letting his personal beliefs get in the way and he had to go, rightly in my opinion. Who knows what he could have done with more time. I think giving Hodgson time to continue to nurture and develop what's a youngish squad, and will get younger once Lampard and Gerrard (and Rooney in time) call it a day


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm guessing you ignored the point when I said I would like to see them follow the same methods as seen by both Germany and Holland and look towards ex players as opposed to managers who have been around for 30 years and amounted to very little.
		
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Low had done nothing of note as a gaffer at club level and had been around for a while and had won no senior caps for the Germans I think I am right in saying.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			BUT THEY'VE WON NOTHING - NONE OF THEM
BY YOUR STANDARDS THEY'RE THE SAME AS HODGESON...

but you're not listening...........
		
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You seem surprised Ian :cheers:


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Low had done nothing of note as a gaffer at club level and had been around for a while and had won no senior caps for the Germans I think I am right in saying.
		
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Footballers don't always make the best managers, just look at Mr Hodgson:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			BUT THEY'VE WON NOTHING - NONE OF THEM
BY YOUR STANDARDS THEY'RE THE SAME AS HODGESON...

but you're not listening...........
		
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Of course they haven't - because they are just starting their career out !!!! 

Massive difference in the points of their careers as managers - Holland etc decided to get ex players backed by experienced coaches to become managers of their country same with clubs like Barce and Madrid .Fresh new people straight from playing with an idea of the modern game and those countries are reaping the benefits of those choices 

Hodgson has been around for 30 years and amounted to nothing when given big roles - Blackburn won the title and qualifues for CL - under Hodgson starts the spiral down to championship football , takes Liverpool to their worst positions in decades and now has added another record to his cv - worst performance for England in a WC finals !!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Low had done nothing of note as a gaffer at club level and had been around for a while and had won no senior caps for the Germans I think I am right in saying.
		
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Was assistant at Stuggart when they won the Bundasliga and then floated around until he was brought in by Klinsmann as his assistant.


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

But but but but but but but......

Lads the quicker you realise LP talks out of his anus the better for you as you'll waste less time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Dodger said:



			But but but but but but but......

Lads the quicker you realise LP talks out of his anus the better for you as you'll waste less time.
		
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Was I incorrect about Loew then ?


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## chris661 (Jun 22, 2014)

This is the only warning being given. 

This thread is starting to descend into silliness and before it goes much further a few of the posters might want to think about what they are saying/posting before they do.


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## Imurg (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			, takes Liverpool to their worst positions in decades !
		
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And there it is!!!!!!!

CheckMate.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			takes Liverpool to their worst positions in decades !!
		
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And finally there's the nub. It affected Liverpool. Forget everything else he's done like getting very small countries to the biggest stage in world football. He failed at Liverpool even though the fans were against him from day one, and he's a failure. As Imurg says , you're not listening or respecting other peoples opinions... again


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			And there it is!!!!!!!

CheckMate.
		
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Yes a big job he failed at - same with Blackburn and England - more suited to jobs like Fulham and West Brom where he can employ that tactics needed to keep those clubs in the Prem - that's the type of manager he is. The track record shows that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And finally there's the nub. It affected Liverpool. Forget everything else he's done like getting very small countries to the biggest stage in world football. He failed at Liverpool even though the fans were against him from day one, and he's a failure. As Imurg says , you're not listening or respecting other peoples opinions... again
		
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How has he done with England ? How did he do with Blackburn ? 

The record shows he does well at small clubs and countries - those facts are not being denied.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			What has Rodgers won?

Yet you bandy him around as he's some sort of managerial wizard!
		
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Wengers CL qualification trophy.


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Was I incorrect about Loew then ?
		
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You are telling all that employing gaffers that are not winners isn't the way to go. Go down the route of ex players too like the Germans.

The current boss had won hee haw as a gaffer and had not played at senior level.

Clear enough?

But but but but but....:smirk:


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chris661 said:



			This is the only warning being given. 

This thread is starting to descend into silliness and before it goes much further a few of the posters might want to think about what they are saying/posting before they do.
		
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Anyone in particular?

A friendly PM wouldn't go a miss


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## chris661 (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			Anyone in particular?

A friendly PM wouldn't go a miss
		
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No one in particular but a few in passing. The warning would be the same in pm form but easier foreveryone to take heed of when posted in the thread.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			What is so wrong with the question? I'll simplify it for you.

Raheem Sterling was born in Kingston, Jamaica.

Yes he qualifies as a british citizen( and by the looks of the government, its not hard) as he was brought here at about the age of 10.

Is he still not a "foreigner" as he's not technically "Home Grown".

There's nothing sinister/racist/fascist or anything else YOU MAY misconstrued it to be.

Btw, these football eligibility rules are only to favour the premier league.
		
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I still don't like the question phrased the way you have, I'm the only one who has posted on this subject but I MAY construe you're comments how I like and, to me, they don't seem too far away from being both sinister and racist but at the very least insensitive.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Funny in it?

The people who don't support the national team, have the most to say about them. What sickens me is that anyone would rather claim a bunch of foreign imports are more important to them, especially given that the ones who spend the most money buys the league. I personally can't comprehend why people wouldn't support their country at all, let alone put country before club
		
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It's easy be brought up in the north, where England don't play.

Club before country every time, whether we are top of the prem,or bottom of lge 2.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes a big job he failed at - same with Blackburn and England - more suited to jobs like Fulham and West Brom where he can employ that tactics needed to keep those clubs in the Prem - that's the type of manager he is. The track record shows that.
		
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But Phil, it doesn't. League titles in Europe, taken one of the biggest clubs to a European final, taking clubs that had never done well on a world stage in years if ever (swiss to a WC for first time sine 66, and a EC, UAE to an Asian Cup for first time). Lets not forget he's also on the FIFA technical panel of coaches so clearly well respected by his peers if not member of the GM Golf Forum. Please accept that we differ and stop trying to counter argue everything. To me, it seems his failure at Liverpool is the problem here (in my opinion at least) and not what he has or hasn't achieved before or after.

For now, he's remaining as England manager. If we get stuffed by Costa Rica that may change but for now like it or not he's the man trying to bring youth forward (as you argued in other threads) and build a new side to be competitive going forward. Sometimes it doesn't come straight away but England will get no stability if they chop and change managers after every tournament


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And finally there's the nub. It affected Liverpool. Forget everything else he's done like getting very small countries to the biggest stage in world football. *He failed at Liverpool even though the fans were against him from day one, and he's a failure.* As Imurg says , you're not listening or respecting other peoples opinions... again
		
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To be fair LFC were in a bad mess at boardroom level and his appointment didn't help. He was appointed to help sell the club as he wouldn't rock the boat.

Fans were protesting about the Owners and Mr Hodgson blamed his poor tactics and signings( konchesky/Poulsen) on the fans not getting behind him, " That Lot" was his words.

Talk about making friends!

Back On Topic.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Funny in it?

The people who don't support the national team, have the most to say about them. What sickens me is that anyone would rather claim a bunch of foreign imports are more important to them, especially given that the ones who spend the most money buys the league. I personally can't comprehend why people wouldn't support their country at all, let alone put country before club
		
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Chris, when you see the players you support week in week out being booed by the mindless little Ingerlanders who turn out for internationals merely because of who they play for, rather than because of their performance, you start to see a reason or two to put club before country.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Dodger said:



			You are telling all that employing gaffers that are not winners isn't the way to go. Go down the route of ex players too like the Germans.

The current boss had won hee haw as a gaffer and had not played at senior level.

Clear enough?

But but but but but....:smirk:
		
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Loew earned his chance to be given the Germany role after impressing as assistant manager under Klinsman and begun part of the turn around of German football on the international stage - he as was a qualified coach winning trophies at Stuggart I believe as a coach and then his record earned him the chance and has gone on to prove it was a right choice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But Phil, it doesn't. League titles in Europe, taken one of the biggest clubs to a European final, taking clubs that had never done well on a world stage in years if ever (swiss to a WC for first time sine 66, and a EC, UAE to an Asian Cup for first time). Lets not forget he's also on the FIFA technical panel of coaches so clearly well respected by his peers if not member of the GM Golf Forum. Please accept that we differ and stop trying to counter argue everything. To me, it seems his failure at Liverpool is the problem here (in my opinion at least) and not what he has or hasn't achieved before or after.

For now, he's remaining as England manager. If we get stuffed by Costa Rica that may change but for now like it or not he's the man trying to bring youth forward (as you argued in other threads) and build a new side to be competitive going forward. Sometimes it doesn't come straight away but England will get no stability if they chop and change managers after every tournament
		
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It shows he has done well with small unfaniced clubs and hit to a few finals but not won anything bar titles in a minor country 

Swiss, Fulham , UAE ?! , West Brom etc - 

For England he has failed - regardless of what panel he is on or who respects he etc but that's two tournaments now for him and his record is worse than previous managers before him. You can dress up what he has done at small clubs but doesn't change what has happened with England. England have gone backwards under Hodgson.


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## Dodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Loew earned his chance to be given the Germany role after impressing as assistant manager under Klinsman and begun part of the turn around of German football on the international stage - he as was a qualified coach winning trophies at Stuggart I believe as a coach and then his record earned him the chance and has gone on to prove it was a right choice.
		
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Right so you really don't know what the best route to go down for international management is?

If you are good enough by whatever entry avenue in you go.

Do you change your undercrackers as much as your mind?


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## NWJocko (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Massive difference in the points of their careers as managers - Holland etc decided to get ex players backed by experienced coaches to become managers of their country same with clubs like Barce and Madrid .Fresh new people straight from playing with an idea of the modern game and those countries are reaping the benefits of those
		
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Holland? You're aware that "failed" (Rijkaard and van Basten) and now thy have van Gaal yes?


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I still don't like the question phrased the way you have, I'm the only one who has posted on this subject but I MAY construe you're comments how I like and, to me, they don't seem too far away from being both sinister and racist but at the very least insensitive.
		
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I've just told you that question isn't anything of the above.

Its a fair and open question that you've not answered which your entitled to tbf.

Just be careful using the foreigner stick.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, when you see the players you support week in week out being booed by the mindless little Ingerlanders who turn out for internationals merely because of who they play for, rather than because of their performance, you start to see a reason or two to put club before country.
		
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Well said.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, when you see the players you support week in week out being booed by the mindless little Ingerlanders who turn out for internationals merely because of who they play for, rather than because of their performance, you start to see a reason or two to put club before country.
		
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I see it more as rivalry between clubs and the banter between fans, no it's not great that John Terry gets insulted at away grounds then cheered for England by the same fans but it's as it's ever been. I can't see how anyone who purports to love football doesn't want their country to be successful it's quite another thing when they are ambivalent about their national team though. I don't watch County cricket or club rugby union but love to watch my country in tests ( despite who plays)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, when you see the players you support week in week out being booed by the mindless little Ingerlanders who turn out for internationals merely because of who they play for, rather than because of their performance, you start to see a reason or two to put club before country.
		
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Extremely well put. Very fair point


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But Phil, it doesn't. League titles in Europe, taken one of the biggest clubs to a European final, taking clubs that had never done well on a world stage in years if ever (swiss to a WC for first time sine 66, and a EC, UAE to an Asian Cup for first time). Lets not forget he's also on the FIFA technical panel of coaches so clearly well respected by his peers if not member of the GM Golf Forum. Please accept that we differ and stop trying to counter argue everything. To me, it seems his failure at Liverpool is the problem here (in my opinion at least) and not what he has or hasn't achieved before or after.

For now, he's remaining as England manager. If we get stuffed by Costa Rica that may change but for now like it or not he's the man trying to bring youth forward (as you argued in other threads) and build a new side to be competitive going forward. Sometimes it doesn't come straight away but England will get no stability if they chop and change managers after every tournament
		
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Homer, be fair - it's like the Moyes situation. Hodgson did very well at lower PRESSURE clubs, leagues, levels, but when given the big pressurised job(s) hasn't performed as well at that level.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I see it more as rivalry between clubs and the banter between fans, no it's not great that John Terry gets insulted at away grounds then cheered for England by the same fans but it's as it's ever been. I can't see how anyone who purports to love football doesn't want their country to be successful it's quite another thing when they are ambivalent about their national team though. I don't watch County cricket or club rugby union but love to watch my country in tests ( despite who plays)
		
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Chris, I think its more a case of not being too bothered.

Also can you say why a Manc, Scouser, Geordie SHOULD love their country more than their club side, which represent their own city,even if a 2 club city?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I see it more as rivalry between clubs and the banter between fans, no it's not great that John Terry gets insulted at away grounds then cheered for England by the same fans but it's as it's ever been. I can't see how anyone who purports to love football doesn't want their country to be successful it's quite another thing when they are ambivalent about their national team though. I don't watch County cricket or club rugby union but love to watch my country in tests ( despite who plays)
		
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Chris, I fully expect JT to get booed by away fans, just as I as a fan will knock opposition players, that's the nature of the beast, but when he, Frank Lampard & Ashley Cole get booed for turning out for England because they are Chelsea players then that is not acceptable and if that is as it has ever been then I'm definitely club before country too.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I've just told you that question isn't anything of the above.

.
		
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Sorry Stuart but I'm entitled to my opinion! 

If Sterling qualifies to play for England I am very happy that he does so. When I was last in Jamaica I heard complaints from locals that they had British passports but couldn't get into the country whereas Albanians etc could just cross from Calais and be given a home and benefits


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, I fully expect JT to get booed by away fans, just as I as a fan will knock opposition players, that's the nature of the beast, but when he, Frank Lampard & Ashley Cole get booed for turning out for England because they are Chelsea players then that is not acceptable and if that is as it has ever been then I'm definitely club before country too.
		
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Same when the Manc players were booed and also Liverpool players booed. 

Know Terry got lots of stick


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, I fully expect JT to get booed by away fans, just as I as a fan will knock opposition players, that's the nature of the beast, but when he, Frank Lampard & Ashley Cole get booed for turning out for England because they are Chelsea players then that is not acceptable and if that is as it has ever been then I'm definitely club before country too.
		
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I understand your point and it really happens because they play in London and many of the fans support other London teams, I don't condone it but don't find it a reason to put club before country.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It shows he has done well with small unfaniced clubs and hit to a few finals but not won anything bar titles in a minor country 

Swiss, Fulham , UAE ?! , West Brom etc - 

For England he has failed - regardless of what panel he is on or who respects he etc but that's two tournaments now for him and his record is worse than previous managers before him. You can dress up what he has done at small clubs but doesn't change what has happened with England. *England have gone backwards under Hodgson.*

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And if Liverpool finish no higher than 3rd next season, what will you say then?
Sack him for taking Liverpool backwards?


*Slime*.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Sorry Stuart but I'm entitled to my opinion! 

If Sterling qualifies to play for England I am very happy that he does so. When I was last in Jamaica I heard complaints from locals that they had British passports but couldn't get into the country whereas Albanians etc could just cross from Calais and be given a home and benefits
		
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I'm very offended by this post and it feels you're calling me a liar after i confirmed in black and white that i do and/or did NOT mean anything sinister/racist/fascist in that question i posed to you.

I'm honest lad and anybody who knows me personally on this site knows i'm none of the above.

Goodnight.


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## chrisd (Jun 22, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Chris, I think its more a case of not being too bothered.

Also can you say why a Manc, Scouser, Geordie SHOULD love their country more than their club side, which represent their own city,even if a 2 club city?
		
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I stated very early on that I support my country first and then my club. I want England, the UK and Great Britain to win every time at everything it enters and still stick with that view. It saddens me when others don't share the same view but it's a free country!


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, I fully expect JT to get booed by away fans, just as I as a fan will knock opposition players, that's the nature of the beast, but when he, Frank Lampard & Ashley Cole get booed for turning out for England because they are Chelsea players then that is not acceptable and if that is as it has ever been then I'm definitely club before country too.
		
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Spot on again. 

Some are saying country before club, but when things go wrong - the scapegoats are picked based on who they play for. England fans are never united, with club rivalries also "kept alive" off the pitch also.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I stated very early on that I support my country first and then my club. I want England, the UK and Great Britain to win every time at everything it enters and still stick with that view. It saddens me when others don't share the same view but it's a free country!
		
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Fair enough, no problem with that, but you keep saying people SHOULD have country first - you still haven't answered my question though.


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## chris661 (Jun 22, 2014)

As we now seem to be heading off in a completely different direction with this thread let's have a break until tomorrow, maybe folk will settle down overnight.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 23, 2014)

Thread reopened
Let's keep it on track and civil please or we will have close the thread permanently 

Thank you


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## chrisd (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Fair enough, no problem with that, but you keep saying people SHOULD have country first - you still haven't answered my question though.
		
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Sorry Liverbirdie, the thread got closed for the night. 

To answer your question, I passionately believe that being asked to do anything for your country is the pinnacle of anyone's career and therefore it goes without saying that country before club is right in my opinion. I quite get it that others would have a view diametrically opposite to this and whilst I get their reasons for putting club first, have to say, that I FEEL that they should put country first.

I realise there is no correct answer to this but I don't see why local rivalries affect peoples views of the national team. I personally loathe Man U but happily see their players in an England shirt. I quite get that others think differently.


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## chrisd (Jun 23, 2014)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm very offended by this post and it feels you're calling me a liar after i confirmed in black and white that i do and/or did NOT mean anything sinister/racist/fascist in that question i posed to you.

I'm honest lad and anybody who knows me personally on this site knows i'm none of the above.

Goodnight.
		
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Stuart, I have not called you a liar. 

I accept that you posted without any intent to offend, but, my reading of the post made me uncomfortable with what you wrote and that's what I tried to convey. I  don't like the fact that a player can play for the country he's domiciled in once he's lived and played their for a certain period but equally don't think Raheem Sterling is a great example of someone who shouldn't play for the country where he has lived since before he was a teenager


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## Slab (Jun 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Sorry Liverbirdie, the thread got closed for the night. 

To answer your question, I passionately believe that being asked to do anything for your country is the pinnacle of anyone's career and therefore it goes without saying that country before club is right in my opinion. I quite get it that others would have a view diametrically opposite to this and whilst I get their reasons for putting club first, have to say, that I FEEL that they should put country first.

I realise there is no correct answer to this but I don't see why local rivalries affect peoples views of the national team. I personally loathe Man U but happily see their players in an England shirt. I quite get that others think differently.
		
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Haven't (& wont) read all the pages of infighting to find out if this has cropped up but...

On the club before country aspect I guess we've all seen players really burst with pride when representing their country but also too many examples of missing a game only to be playing for themselves/club a couple of days later. And maybe that has an effect with the fans

Also you can easily imagine a fan who lives within a par5 of their local football club having a closer connection/affinity to the one they have with their country, who maybe play an entire grand prix distance away and the fan has never even been able to see live  

Although it has to be said, to not support your country just because so&so club rival player is in the squad etc etc and they also scored against my club etc etc etc so therefore schoolboy logic says I cant like my country while he's there... is pretty weak logic


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## guest100718 (Jun 23, 2014)

I am looking forward to Tuesdays game, Hodgson should be making lots of changes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2014)

Redknapp has suggested some players don't want to go to play for England 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27969231

And Hodgson has asked Gerrard to stay on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27966260


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## 3offTheTee (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How has he done with England ? How did he do with Blackburn ? 

The record shows he does well at small clubs and countries - those facts are not being denied.
		
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Whether he does well with small clubs or otherwise he did NOT do well with a small club like Liverpool. Despite Blackburn being a small club they have won The Premiership which is more than can be said about Liverpool!


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## guest100718 (Jun 23, 2014)

I hope he calls it a day
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27966260


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2014)

I think Hodgson is just being gracious.

Gerrard was a decent player in his time but his time is over now at international level.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 23, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think Hodgson is just being gracious.

Gerrard was a decent player in his time but his time is over now at international level.
		
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Gotta say I bemused at playing lampard as captain. I know he may nit have one set in stone for qualifiers next year. But surely he could have just given it to hart and played a youthful team against Costa Rica?

lampard won't be around so what are we gonna learn?


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## Slime (Jun 23, 2014)

I support club AND country with equal enthusiasm, it's not like I'll have to choose as I can't envisage them ever playing against each other!

*
Slime*.


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## Fish (Jun 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Gotta say I bemused at playing lampard as captain. I know he may nit have one set in stone for qualifiers next year. But surely he could have just given it to hart and played a youthful team against Costa Rica?

lampard won't be around so what are we gonna learn?
		
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I don't agree with goalkeepers being captain, I want a captain that is more in-field or in touch with the outfield players and can lead by example and rally the troops when needed, I didn't see any of that in England's last 2 games for anyone!  As for SG, I think he should bow out gracefully, he will not be at the top of his game for 2016 or the next world cup so lets make the changes now and bed someone in that will figure more in the future, unfortunately SG won't.

Talks of Rooney being captain disappoint me, he's not the right 'character' again for me, he can disappear but more importantly he's not a motivator towards others IMO, who would I have, TBH I'm not sure, I'm not too bothered about how many caps they already have or experience per se, more a case of 'can they lift a team or any given player when needed' and will they be around for the next 5 years for an England place?  

As for Lamps on Tuesday, SG has had 2 games and won't feature in the future years much, if at all, so why not, OK Frank won't either but you need an 'old head' at times still out their to support the young guns in their 1st campaign/s and he's been an excellent servant so it will no doubt be his swan song.


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## Slime (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Redknapp has suggested some players don't want to go to play for England 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27969231

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I wouldn't pay too much attention to an old bitter who hasn't got the courage to name names but is quite happy to stir things up.
He's football's equivalent of Gary Player. Running his mouth off just for a bit of attention.


*Slime*.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 23, 2014)




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## Foxholer (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:





Blue in Munich said:



			Chris, when you see the players you support week in week out being booed by the mindless little Ingerlanders who turn out for internationals merely because of who they play for, rather than because of their performance, you start to see a reason or two to put club before country.
		
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Well said.
		
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If a little self-contradictory - or at least sinking to the same level!

The job of England Manager is a poisoned chalice - as was Hodgson's time at Liverpool, with the club up for sale and a legend in the background! The job itself is vastly different from that of the Manager of a Club, yet most fans see them as identical roles!

There are very few 'recent players' who have made the jump to management at a high level successfully. as previously posted, the Dutch experiment wasn't very successful. Roy Keane and Stuart Pearce both 'failed' and there have been several others before them.


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## bozza (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gone for the youngsters 

Stones instead of JÃ¤gelkia
Barkley and Flanagan playing - also Lallana
		
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Being a Everton fan I rate Stones highly and he will be England's first choice centre back in the future but to throw him in at the deep end straight away and risk him getting hammerd by the media/fans if he has a bad coupe if games could ruin the young lad.

Give him chance in a few friendlies first and test him out.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I am looking forward to Tuesdays game, .
		
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Me too, Italy Uruguay should be a cracker.  As for the England match then  it has been reduced in importance in this country to somewhere between a testimonial and a kick about in the  park with jumpers for goalposts.  ITV should show the Italy game on ITV1.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2014)

Fish said:



			I don't agree with goalkeepers being captain, I want a captain that is more in-field or in touch with the outfield players and can lead by example and rally the troops when needed, I didn't see any of that in England's last 2 games for anyone!  As for SG, I think he should bow out gracefully, he will not be at the top of his game for 2016 or the next world cup so lets make the changes now and bed someone in that will figure more in the future, unfortunately SG won't.

Talks of Rooney being captain disappoint me, he's not the right 'character' again for me, he can disappear but more importantly he's not a motivator towards others IMO, who would I have, TBH I'm not sure, I'm not too bothered about how many caps they already have or experience per se, more a case of 'can they lift a team or any given player when needed' and will they be around for the next 5 years for an England place?  

As for Lamps on Tuesday, SG has had 2 games and won't feature in the future years much, if at all, so why not, OK Frank won't either but you need an 'old head' at times still out their to support the young guns in their 1st campaign/s and he's been an excellent servant so it will no doubt be his swan song.
		
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What about Cahill as capt ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2014)

Personally I see giving Lampard the armband as recognition that his time is up and that this will become his last match. Nothing wrong in that as a gesture and it's a meaningless fixture now anyway. Going forward, I don't think we have any true leader. Rooney hasn't the temperament.

Lots of countries have had keepers as captain over the years (Sepp Maier - West Germany, Dino Zoff - Italy, Cassilas - Spain). We've had Shilton and Clemence do it before and as long as there is someone out on the pitch in the midst of the action running it (think Robson Adams and Platt) then who wears the armband is irrelevant.


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## Rooter (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm with Homer, who wears the armband is irrelevant these days, you do need however "leaders" on the pitch.

damn, i said i wouldnt comment on any more footy threads! although comment is not about specific teams or players....


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Lots of soul-searching and recriminations from fans of a team who just lost narrowly to two teams both of whom are above them in the world rankings. 

Disappointing for you all, but surely not entirely unexpected?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Lots of soul-searching and recriminations from fans of a team who just lost narrowly to two teams both of whom are above them in the world rankings. 

Disappointing for you all, but surely not entirely unexpected?
		
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Not unexpected at all 

Hopes were raised as the tournament approached but even the warm up games highlighted issues. 

Expectations were supposed to have been downgraded but the reaction seems to go against that


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Lots of soul-searching and recriminations from fans of a team who just lost narrowly to two teams both of whom are above them in the world rankings. 

Disappointing for you all, but surely not entirely unexpected?
		
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World rankings don't mean jack, they are rollocks anyway.

We should be beating countries like Uruguay if you compare the resources available. Theres other teams with a lot less talent and resources than us that are doing better at the world cup as well.

Constantly underperforming doesn't hide the fact we should be doing a lot better. We should be one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the world but we are light years away from that level.


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## Slab (Jun 23, 2014)

I think keepers as captains works well (providing the have the other necessary characteristics) I think they have more time and a better view/perspective of the field than most and has particular advantage over choosing a captain that's 'in the middle' of things


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Lots of soul-searching and recriminations from fans of a team who just lost narrowly to two teams both of whom are above them in the world rankings. 

Disappointing for you all, but surely not entirely unexpected?
		
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To be honest our world ranking is a bit optimistic, as I am willing to bet that if you just did the rankings on the finals of major tournaments when it matters, instead of all qualifying games where you are up against cannon fodder some of the time, we'd be a lot lower.

But in answer to your question then no, not at all surprising.  It would be more of a surprise if we lost to Costa Rica with our full strength side out.  But as we are treating it as a testimonial now and they will probably rest their best players and players on a yellow, then that's no guide either.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 23, 2014)

3offTheTee said:



			Whether he does well with small clubs or otherwise he did NOT do well with a small club like Liverpool. Despite Blackburn being a small club they have won The Premiership which is more than can be said about Liverpool!
		
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Too obvious lad, be a bit cleverer next time,eh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2014)

3offTheTee said:



			Whether he does well with small clubs or otherwise he did NOT do well with a small club like Liverpool. Despite Blackburn being a small club they have won The Premiership which is more than can be said about Liverpool!
		
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2/10 - must do better next time


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			World rankings don't mean jack, they are rollocks anyway.

We should be beating countries like Uruguay if you compare the resources available. *Theres other teams with a lot less talent and resources *than us that are doing better at the world cup as well.

Constantly underperforming doesn't hide the fact we should be doing a lot better. We should be one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the world but we are light years away from that level.
		
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No argument about most other teams having less resources than 'Club England'.  But a lot less talent? 

 I think the results on the pitch in major tournaments would indicate we ain't competing on talent with most teams either.  As surely, bar the odd freak result, talent comes to the top across a tournament.  And we ain't anywhere near that now.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			World rankings don't mean jack, they are rollocks anyway.

We should be beating countries like Uruguay if you compare the resources available. Theres other teams with a lot less talent and resources than us that are doing better at the world cup as well.

Constantly underperforming doesn't hide the fact we should be doing a lot better. We should be one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the world but we are light years away from that level.
		
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I rest my case, until England and English fans learn to accept your current level and place in world football you are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes.

If they'd accepted that a draw against a superior Uruguayan team would have allowed a good chance of progressing with a win against Costa Rica maybe this thread would have a significantly less posts?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2014)

Hopefully those picked to play will not treat it as a "meaningless fixture"...


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			No argument about most other teams having less resources than 'Club England'.  But less talent? 

 I think the results on the pitch in major tournaments would indicate we ain't competing on talent with most teams either.  As surely, bar the odd freak result, talent comes to the top across a tournament.  And we ain't anywhere near that now.
		
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Talent doesn't mean nothing if its underperforming so badly like ours are.

For example do you think Costa Rica have a more talented team than England? Definitely not but they have won both matches and are going through while we are on the plane home.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I rest my case, until England and English fans learn to accept your current level and place in world football you are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes.

If they'd accepted that a draw against a superior Uruguayan team would have allowed a good chance of progressing with a win against Costa Rica maybe this thread would have a significantly less posts?
		
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Put your rod away :rofl:


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Put your rod away :rofl:
		
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Truth hurts?


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I rest my case, until England and English fans learn to accept your current level and place in world football you are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes.

If they'd accepted that a draw against a superior Uruguayan team would have allowed a good chance of progressing with a win against Costa Rica maybe this thread would have a significantly less posts?
		
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Agreed - Netherlands population, money, resources etc V England yet they outperform us all the time.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Talent doesn't mean nothing if its underperforming so badly like ours are.

For example do you think Costa Rica have a more talented team than England? Definitely not but they have won both matches and are going through while we are on the plane home.
		
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Depends on how you define talent really.  If you define it as the ability to pull together as a team to do what you need to do to win/shut out a match then you could argue that Costa Rica have just as much talent as England.  

If you are talking about the individual skills of each player then yes England probably have more than Costa Rica (but I'd argue you'd struggle to argue that against a lot of teams in the world cup).  But that means jack if you can't make a team out of it.  As England prove time after time.  

I'd argue that you could not ask for a whole lot more from the players than England gave against Italy.  But we still lost, not because we did not live up to potential, but because we were just not good enough when it mattered.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Truth hurts?
		
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Not really. Suppose we should take advice from the experts in failure though as you lot have the most experience.

Thanks :rofl:


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## guest100718 (Jun 23, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Agreed - Netherlands population, money, resources etc V England yet they outperform us all the time.
		
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but havnt actually won the world cup....


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## Papas1982 (Jun 23, 2014)

Fish said:



			I don't agree with goalkeepers being captain, I want a captain that is more in-field or in touch with the outfield players and can lead by example and rally the troops when needed, I didn't see any of that in England's last 2 games for anyone!  As for SG, I think he should bow out gracefully, he will not be at the top of his game for 2016 or the next world cup so lets make the changes now and bed someone in that will figure more in the future, unfortunately SG won't.

Talks of Rooney being captain disappoint me, he's not the right 'character' again for me, he can disappear but more importantly he's not a motivator towards others IMO, who would I have, TBH I'm not sure, I'm not too bothered about how many caps they already have or experience per se, more a case of 'can they lift a team or any given player when needed' and will they be around for the next 5 years for an England place?  

As for Lamps on Tuesday, SG has had 2 games and won't feature in the future years much, if at all, so why not, OK Frank won't either but you need an 'old head' at times still out their to support the young guns in their 1st campaign/s and he's been an excellent servant so it will no doubt be his swan song.
		
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Im not advocating hart long term, and agree lampard has been a great servant. I just think it's tokenism. 
I think Roy wants Rooney as captain, but for that I think he needs to pin his flag to him, play him as the lone striker (his best position) and stick to it. 

Personally im not sure who else can be captain, if we go with a team if youngsters many of us have said we'd like I don't see manyborn  leaders there.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends on how you define talent really.  If you define it as the ability to pull together as a team to do what you need to do to win/shut out a match then you could argue that Costa Rica have just as much talent as England.  

If you are talking about the individual skills of each player then yes England probably have more than Costa Rica (but I'd argue you'd struggle to argue that against a lot of teams in the world cup).  But that means jack if you can't make a team out of it.  As England prove time after time.  

I'd argue that you could not ask for a whole lot more from the players than England gave against Italy.  But we still lost, not because we did not live up to potential, but because we were just not good enough when it mattered.
		
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I did say talent, not teamwork (we clearly haven't mastered that yet  )

Theres a lot of teams going through we have more talent than and resources but yet they have still outperformed us?

Theres no hiding the fact we should be expecting better. With the resources we have we should be producing better players and with the current talent we have we should be doing better.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Not really. Suppose we should take advice from the experts in failure though as you lot have the most experience.

Thanks :rofl:
		
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Exactly, that is exactly my point! We don't turn up expecting to roll over teams that are better than us. We play a strategy that suits our strengths (such as they are) and gives us a chance..... And we've beaten teams like Italy, France and the Netherlands in competitive matches by taking a pragmatic approach. 

England seem to go into every game thinking they are better than and can outplay any opposition. Might have been true against most teams in the past but certainly not at the moment. You're closer to Scotland than Brazil at the moment, accept it!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly, that is exactly my point! We don't turn up expecting to roll over teams that are better than us. We play a strategy that suits our strengths (such as they are) and gives us a chance..... And we've beaten teams like Italy, France and the Netherlands in competitive matches by taking a pragmatic approach. 

England seem to go into every game thinking they are better than and can outplay any opposition. Might have been true against most teams in the past but certainly not at the moment. You're closer to Scotland than Brazil at the moment, accept it!
		
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To be fair we are not that far from Brazil as in the 2 games I've seen they played pretty rubbish for all the supposed talent on offer.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I did say talent, not teamwork (we clearly haven't mastered that yet  )

Theres a lot of teams going through we have more talent than and resources but yet they have still outperformed us?

Theres no hiding the fact we should be expecting better. With the resources we have we should be producing better players and with the current talent we have we should be doing better.
		
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So we are the US Ryder Cup team of the footballing world?


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 23, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			but havnt actually won the world cup....
		
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Correct, maybe if they had one on home soil, they might. Been to more finals than us though.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Exactly, that is exactly my point! We don't turn up expecting to roll over teams that are better than us. We play a strategy that suits our strengths (such as they are) and gives us a chance..... And we've beaten teams like Italy, France and the Netherlands in competitive matches by taking a pragmatic approach. 

England seem to go into every game thinking they are better than and can outplay any opposition. Might have been true against most teams in the past but certainly not at the moment. You're closer to Scotland than Brazil at the moment, accept it!
		
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I never said we were world beaters, I said we *should be better*. Nobody can argue with that, it is a FACT. With the amount of football teams, fans, money and the all the rest of it England has we should be better.

We don't turn up expecting to beat everyone at all, we just expect our players to actually perform and play as well as they can which rarely happens.

Fact is we are currently in Brazil so no we are closer to Brazil than Scotland :ears:


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I never said we were world beaters, I said we *should be better*. Nobody can argue with that, it is a FACT. With the amount of football teams, fans, money and the all the rest of it England has we should be better.

We don't turn up expecting to beat everyone at all, we just expect our players to actually perform and play as well as they can which rarely happens.

Fact is we are currently in Brazil so no we are closer to Brazil than Scotland :ears:
		
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I don't disagree. You should be better. But you're not, your world cup matches went according to form. Given the last round of fixtures, Uruguay really needed to beat England but a draw should have done you. If you'd shut up shop and tried to hit them on the break after the equaliser you'd still be in the world cup. Might even have won the match....

I knew it was a mistake to use "Brazil" in that particular jibe!  :thup:


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I don't disagree. You should be better. But you're not, your world cup matches went according to form. Given the last round of fixtures, Uruguay really needed to beat England but a draw should have done you. If you'd shut up shop and tried to hit them on the break after the equaliser you'd still be in the world cup. Might even have won the match....

I knew it was a mistake to use "Brazil" in that particular jibe!  :thup:
		
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Against Uruguay on the balance of the game we were the better team but our players didn't finish the job. Rooney missed a couple of good chances and Gerrard/centre half cock up and see you later. That's all it takes at this level.

Usually Gerrard/Rooney et al wouldn't miss those chances or make them mistakes which is why we underperformed and should be still in it.

Even against Italy even people with a dislike of England could see the level of performance warranted more than a defeat and again individual mistakes cost us which shouldn't have happened.

Im in no way saying we are a great team but I didn't see anything from Uruguay or Italy that suggested to me we should be accepting defeat to them.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Against Uruguay on the balance of the game we were the better team but our players didn't finish the job. Rooney missed a couple of good chances and Gerrard/centre half cock up and see you later. That's all it takes at this level.

Usually Gerrard/Rooney et al wouldn't miss those chances or make them mistakes which is why we underperformed and should be still in it.

Even against Italy even people with a dislike of England could see the level of performance warranted more than a defeat and again individual mistakes cost us which shouldn't have happened.

*Im in no way saying we are a great team but I didn't see anything from Uruguay or Italy that suggested to me we should be accepting defeat to them.*

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Apart from the fact that they took their chances and were more clinical in the final 3rd. Which at this level is sometimes all it takes. And as Rooney said in his press conference, they knew how to finish matches off.  And much as I'd like to think this is a one off, it's not.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apart from the fact that they took their chances and were more clinical in the final 3rd. Which at this level is sometimes all it takes. And as Rooney said in his press conference, they knew how to finish matches off.  And much as I'd like to think this is a one off, it's not.
		
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Them goals were down to poor mistakes from our players which they don't usually make. I know goals generally come from mistakes but its not like they did anything special to score the goals. We had more chances than the oppo in both games yet squandered nearly all of them yet these same players gobble these chances up for fun for their clubs.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Them goals were down to poor mistakes from our players which they don't usually make. I know goals generally come from mistakes but i*ts not like they did anything special to score the goals*. We had more chances than the oppo in both games yet squandered nearly all of them yet these same players gobble these chances up for fun for their clubs.
		
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Apart from the Suarez 2nd goal, I'm not sure the other goals were down to individual poor mistakes? You say they did nothing special, did you see Pirlo's step over dummy, the beautifully flighted cross for both the Italian second and Uruguay's first goals?  They looked more down to clinical finishing and the opposition having a better footballing brain to me, rather than England mistakes.


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## londonlewis (Jun 23, 2014)

The England team visited an orphanage in Brazil today.
'It's heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope' said Felipe, aged 6.


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apart from the Suarez 2nd goal, I'm not sure the other goals were down to individual poor mistakes? You say they did nothing special, did you see Pirlo's step over dummy, the beautifully flighted cross for both the Italian second and Uruguay's first goals?  They looked more down to clinical finishing and the opposition having a better footballing brain to me, rather than England mistakes.
		
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The Uruguay first goal and Italy second goals were down to defender letting Striker drift in behind him and no cover from fullback. Stuff you should learn at a pretty low level, if you cant see or feel the guy you are marking your pretty much in trouble and also covering each other etc.

The Italy first he could have sparked up a cigar he had so much time to strike the ball which should not have happened. Again that doesn't take a world class defender to stop that.

Uruguay second needs no explaining.

All poor errors which could and should have been avoided imo.


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## dontfancythisputt (Jun 23, 2014)

To chuck my hat in the ring I'm going to add to this debate that nobody is going to tell me that the likes of Columbia, costa Rica, Nigeria, Algeria, Uruguay, Ivory Coast, Ecuador and so on,  are technically a better footballing team than England or that they have a better pool of players from which to pick a national team. 

For me the one thing these teams have that has kept them in the completion so far and something that England have long since lost is desire...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2014)

Birchy said:



			The Uruguay first goal and Italy second goals were down to defender letting Striker drift in behind him and no cover from fullback. Stuff you should learn at a pretty low level, if you cant see or feel the guy you are marking your pretty much in trouble and also covering each other etc.

The Italy first he could have sparked up a cigar he had so much time to strike the ball which should not have happened. Again that doesn't take a world class defender to stop that.

Uruguay second needs no explaining.

All poor errors which could and should have been avoided imo.
		
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But surely if it happened twice as it did with the headed goals then that slightly negates the argument that they were isolated individual errors and more likely that they are just not good enough to compete with world class strikers?  Ergo we got what we deserved and that is kind of where we are?

It's kind of where does a string of individual errors stop (and if it wasn't for them, we would/could/should have won etc etc) and the fact that they are just not good enough at that level to beat the likes of Italy and even Uruguay start?

Anyway, I'm off to watch some proper football, Holland V Chile, bring it on


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## Birchy (Jun 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But surely if it happened twice as it did with the headed goals then that slightly negates the argument that they were isolated individual errors and more likely that they are just not good enough to compete with world class strikers?  Ergo we got what we deserved and that is kind of where we are?

It's kind of where does a string of individual errors stop (and if it wasn't for them, we would/could/should have won etc etc) and the fact that they are just not good enough at that level to beat the likes of Italy and even Uruguay start?

Anyway, I'm off to watch some proper football, Holland V Chile, bring it on 

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The fact it happened twice just illustrates how far their heads were up their own arses


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2014)

I thought against Italy we dictated the pace and were on top for periods. We conceded two sloppy goals and if you don't defend at this level you will get punished. Against Uruguay we were so scared of losing we played like "old" England, slow, ponderous and predictable. The defending again let us down but we didn't get on top as we could and should have.

Maybe years of being teased with a whiff of success and then having it snatched away again as a Fulham fan has hardened me to the fact that England are not world beaters. Never will be until the FA change from grass roots up and that won't happen in my lifetime. We'll continue to have a few good players, fail to gel as a team and flatter to deceive.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

..And so the party is over. Bags packed and can't get away quick enough (at final whistle)..Maybe they could get the rest of the squad to check their bags in early so there is less hanging around...Don't know what the rush is to get away. Having been to Rio and various other parts of Brazil,there is loads to do..They could start with a de-brief, and could have stayed and done a bit of good PR with locals and kids for at least a day..I guess they are in need of a 'holiday' after being there so long..You couldn't make it up..


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			..And so the party is over. Bags packed and can't get away quick enough (at final whistle)..Maybe they could get the rest of the squad to check their bags in early so there is less hanging around...Don't know what the rush is to get away. Having been to Rio and various other parts of Brazil,there is loads to do..They could start with a de-brief, and could have stayed and done a bit of good PR with locals and kids for at least a day..I guess they are in need of a 'holiday' after being there so long..You couldn't make it up..
		
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I'm kind of guessing some of them may want to get back to see their families.  And also they probably don't want to hang around in Brazil as they will be constantly reminded of how rubbish they were at the world cup, what with the country being obsessed with it and all that.


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## Slime (Jun 24, 2014)

I must admit, Lampard is playing well .............................. Wilshire is not!
The defence looks pretty solid too!

Early days.


*Slime*.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 24, 2014)

Slime said:



			I must admit, Lampard is playing well .............................. Wilshire is not!
The defence looks pretty solid too!

Early days.


*Slime*.
		
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I do hope sturridge continues where he left of in prem extvseason. Because on these perfromances. England need a new striker if Rooney is always ginna be in the hole.


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## bozza (Jun 24, 2014)

A world class striker would have had at least 2 goals by now the chances Sturridge has had.

Lampard had also been pretty decent.


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## Slime (Jun 24, 2014)

If you're trying to say that Sturridge is having a mare, I agree with you. 
Should do better.


*Slime*.


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## Dodger (Jun 24, 2014)

bozza said:



			A world class striker would have had at least 2 goals by now the chances Sturridge has had.

Lampard had also been pretty decent.
		
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Sturridge is a ten a penny player. Miles away from being a world class striker,miles away. England have been woeful against a team that is in 1st gear.


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2014)

I don't think any of our players could trap a bag of cement!


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm kind of guessing some of them may want to get back to see their families.  And also they probably don't want to hang around in Brazil as they will be constantly reminded of how rubbish they were at the world cup, what with the country being obsessed with it and all that.
		
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Miss their families..Ha ha ...Only been there a week


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 24, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			To chuck my hat in the ring I'm going to add to this debate that nobody is going to tell me that the likes of Columbia, costa Rica, Nigeria, Algeria, Uruguay, Ivory Coast, Ecuador and so on,  are technically a better footballing team than England or that they have a better pool of players from which to pick a national team. 

For me the one thing these teams have that has kept them in the completion so far and something that England have long since lost is desire...
		
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Yet again I will say it depends on what you mean by technical.  One of England's major failings is that they are not very technically gifted when compared to a lot of nations. I heard a bit of the latest match on 5 live and Danny Mills was berating them for not offering for passes and not being confident when in possession of the ball in dangerous areas (anyone can pass it between the back 4 all day) or for wasting the final ball.  

You watch an England match when someone is looking for a pass in the oppositions half and at times players run away just because there is an opposition player within 5 yards of them.  Other teams do not do that as their players have the technical ability to control the ball when under a bit of pressure and find a pass to their own team without resulting to a hoof/long ball, as we do all to often in times of pressure.  Most England players do not have this ability, probably because years and years of coaching has not valued that skill.

And I could argue that technically Uruguay are a better football team as they went through with 6 points and we did not with one point.  Wake up, smell the coffee, we are not very good nowadays, this result was not a fluke.  I agree that the future could be bright with the players we have, but as it stands we used to be a team that would lose in the quarter finals and are now a team that struggles to get out of a group in the World Cup.  

I'm sure the players had a massive amount of desire to do well, but they were just not good enough.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2014)

Strategically we didn't use our assets, we have speed and some of our players who lack skill are disciplined. Basically the first game Rooney should have been pulled off or moved and Milner brought on to protect the left flank. In the second game no one exploited the slow central defence by playing balls over the top into space and turning it into a race ... Lamps was releasing players and they were running for him today. Wiltshere was not so good and perhaps should have been swapped, Sturridge needs to practice the first time snap shot ... Is Jag(whatever) really a first pick central defender?


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## Coatsy79 (Jun 24, 2014)

As a non football fan (who watches tons of ice hockey, which is kinda similar) you can't win games without possession in the attacking area of the field of play (weather that's ice hockey, rugby, football etc)

And, from the 2 games I watched (because I always get drawn into the "World Cup you have to watch it" thing) England do not ever have enough possession in the opposition half, they're definitely not comfortable with the ball there

Meanwhile other teams are happy for them to kick it about in their own half as it's not pressuring them


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2014)

Listening to Hodgson on 5 Live on the radio shows why England will never improve - you would think England qualified


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Listening to Hodgson on 5 Live on the radio shows why England will never improve - you would think England qualified
		
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Not heard, the interview,but i agree, and do not think we'll improve under him.He speaks well, but at the same time sends a lot of confusing messages out.At least that is what i get from him.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2014)

How difficult is it? Score and keep the others out.


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## Dodger (Jun 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Listening to Hodgson on 5 Live on the radio shows why England will never improve - you would think England qualified
		
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And listening to the pundits is incredible.......positive this positive that.

What was positive??

England were a disaster who did not qualify against 3 pretty poor sides. Not one of their players can come away from that with plus points,no one shone at all.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 24, 2014)

Spain fail and Del Bosque offers his resignation.

Italy fail and Prandelli  offers to Resign.

England fail and Hodgson gets another 2yrs :rofl:


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## Papas1982 (Jun 24, 2014)

Dodger said:



			And listening to the pundits is incredible.......positive this positive that.

What was positive??

England were a disaster who did not qualify against 3 pretty poor sides. Not one of their players can come away from that with plus points,no one shone at all.
		
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2/3 teams above us in world rankings and reserves used in final game. I'm not sayin it's been great, but I don't think our performances have been as shambolic as at other tournaments.


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## standrew (Jun 24, 2014)

A lot of WC teams play good football, but have no game changers. I think eng have game changers in Barkley and Sturridge but play v poor in possession. They need to be Engs priority imo. Its important they develop well.

Bayern showed that they dont suit tika taka or whatever. A lot of teams cant handle traditional English style crosses and set plays. These should also be a priority.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			2/3 teams above us in world rankings and reserves used in final game. I'm not sayin it's been great, but I don't think our performances have been as shambolic as at other tournaments.
		
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You really think that ?

At the very least England got out of the group and got some wins on the board.

That was the worst by an England team in history


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## Dodger (Jun 24, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			2/3 teams above us in world rankings and reserves used in final game. I'm not sayin it's been great, but I don't think our performances have been as shambolic as at other tournaments.
		
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Really?

Italy are not a great side and neither Uruguay then you are left with Costa Rica who were playing a glorified friendly in 1st gear today and your sum total was 1 point from that last game.

We'll agree to disagree but I thought you were void of ideas,static,poor in possession,bad defensively and the only bit of Armour you had was a bit of pace but that was tempered with hee haw skill and composure.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

Dodger said:



			And listening to the pundits is incredible.......positive this positive that.

What was positive??

England were a disaster who did not qualify against 3 pretty poor sides. Not one of their players can come away from that with 
plus points,no one shone at all.
		
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Agreed..I think if we played in red shirts, we would perform better..(honestly)..Might even get some of the Liverpool supporters to get behind the country...Hmm..Then again,maybe not..


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## dontfancythisputt (Jun 24, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yet again I will say it depends on what you mean by technical.  One of England's major failings is that they are not very technically gifted when compared to a lot of nations. I heard a bit of the latest match on 5 live and Danny Mills was berating them for not offering for passes and not being confident when in possession of the ball in dangerous areas (anyone can pass it between the back 4 all day) or for wasting the final ball.  

You watch an England match when someone is looking for a pass in the oppositions half and at times players run away just because there is an opposition player within 5 yards of them.  Other teams do not do that as their players have the technical ability to control the ball when under a bit of pressure and find a pass to their own team without resulting to a hoof/long ball, as we do all to often in times of pressure.  Most England players do not have this ability, probably because years and years of coaching has not valued that skill.

And I could argue that technically Uruguay are a better football team as they went through with 6 points and we did not with one point.  Wake up, smell the coffee, we are not very good nowadays, this result was not a fluke.  I agree that the future could be bright with the players we have, but as it stands we used to be a team that would lose in the quarter finals and are now a team that struggles to get out of a group in the World Cup.  

I'm sure the players had a massive amount of desire to do well, but they were just not good enough.
		
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I agree with most of this and may have been misunderstood regarding my views on englands quality.  I am in total agreement that England are at present a very poor side but my argument is that there are teams I consider worse who are through to the next stage. 

I have watched a number of the teams I mentioned in this world cup and whilst they show some amazing skill and talent imo they are often well short on the technical basics of the game. At times tonight even Costa Rica couldn't pass a 20 yard ball to an unmarked man. I consider England to have these basics.

What I see from the poorer teams is a desire to score goals to win matches England for a long time had only the desire not to lose. 

In this campaign England may have looked to change this approach but it hasn't worked as we aren't good enough to score and it led to exposure at the back.

What I cant stand is in my view a lack of effort to change a score when you have nothing to loose. Against Uruguay I saw Rooney try to beat 4 men on his own and nearly succeed the trouble was it was 88 mins and he was alone in his efforts. That kind of desire from 3 or 4 more mid way through the second half would have got us something im sure.

I dont for a minute doubt the desire of each individual but in my view the collective desire a well gelled team need is missing.


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## 2blue (Jun 24, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			2/3 teams above us in world rankings and reserves used in final game. I'm not sayin it's been great, but I don't think our performances have been as shambolic as at other tournaments.
		
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Spot on Papa.....  not a lot was expected of England so why be surprised with the result ??? but, .....  Other than a few 'this or that's' we'd be through.......   certainly not the shambles I've seen over the 5 decades of watching England.


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			Spot on Papa.....  not a lot was expected of England so why be surprised with the result ??? but, .....  Other than a few 'this or that's' we'd be through.......   certainly not the shambles I've seen over the 5 decades of watching England.
		
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5 decades?..So 86 and 90 were a shambles?


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## 2blue (Jun 24, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			I dont for a minute doubt the desire of each individual but in my view the collective desire a well gelled team need is missing.
		
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However many folk on here have questioned that desire as well as the question of putting Club before Country.
Firstly I must say I've really enjoyed reading the exchanges/comments on here & am glad the moderators have applied reason to the often passionate feelings that have emerged. 
With passion, often out of the window goes reason....  so my observations come from many years of following the fortunes of England since witnessing, as a 19 year old,  the '66 win.
Since then English club football & England as a nation have changed immeasurably. In those days we had little understanding of 'Johnny Foreigner' & his footballing ways other than they were dishonest & crafty. All the Eng team was, without question, white, home grown, home bred & all over England HRM's subjects stood in cinemas for the National Anthem after the evenings film. However over the years things have steadily changed & we, like most of the Western world, have, inevitably, become an increasingly multi-ethnic , multi-cultural nation where religion & cap-doffing is of less & less significance & the establishment have been exposed for what they are.
It was therefore, as a long term Eng follower, exceedingly disappointing to hear the Ingerlanders calling out for my team to have to sing (Queenie's Song) The British National Anthem, & for Hodgson to have to get them to agree to it thus causing problems for any Republican &/or atheists members. Also I must say I'm not sure when it was that England grabbed this UK/British Anthem for their own thus ignoring other UK members.
It's now long past the time that we had a real National Song that ALL English citizens can relate to, sing with pride & will bond individuals of all cultures and backgrounds in those moments before they go onto the pitch and let their passion show otherwise how will we ever be able to put together the strongest side from our diverse Nation.


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## Fish (Jun 24, 2014)

Did you know England have recorded more 0-0 results on the world stage than any other country, ever!

Speaks volumes, seems our footballers prefer to score more off the park than on it!


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## 2blue (Jun 24, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			5 decades?..So 86 and 90 were a shambles?
		
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More shambles than successes....  that's for sure


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## Fish (Jun 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			However many folk on here have questioned that desire as well as the question of putting Club before Country.
Firstly I must say I've really enjoyed reading the exchanges/comments on here & am glad the moderators have applied reason to the often passionate feelings that have emerged. 
With passion, often out of the window goes reason....  so my observations come from many years of following the fortunes of England since witnessing, as a 19 year old,  the '66 win.
Since then English club football & England as a nation have changed immeasurably. In those days we had little understanding of 'Johnny Foreigner' & his footballing ways other than they were dishonest & crafty. All the Eng team was, without question, white, home grown, home bred & all over England HRM's subjects stood in cinemas for the National Anthem after the evenings film. However over the years things have steadily changed & we, like most of the Western world, have, inevitably, become an increasingly multi-ethnic , multi-cultural nation where religion & cap-doffing is of less & less significance & the establishment have been exposed for what they are.
It was therefore, as a long term Eng follower, exceedingly disappointing to hear the Ingerlanders calling out for my team to have to sing (Queenie's Song) The British National Anthem, & for Hodgson to have to get them to agree to it thus causing problems for any Republican &/or atheists members. Also I must say I'm not sure when it was that England grabbed this UK/British Anthem for their own thus ignoring other UK members.
It's now long past the time that we had a real National Song that ALL English citizens can relate to, sing with pride & will bond individuals of all cultures and backgrounds in those moments before they go onto the pitch and let their passion show otherwise how will we ever be able to put together the strongest side from our diverse Nation.
		
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Were did you cut & paste that from, I've read your posts before and their not your words


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			5 decades?..So 86 and 90 were a shambles?
		
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Cant agree about five decades. We were within a post of beating Germany. I watched the first half today and thought they looked ok without being world beaters. As a second string side that tells me there is an element of depth to the squad we've been lacking (Oxlade Chamberlain and Walcott to return too)


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## Rumpokid (Jun 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			However many folk on here have questioned that desire as well as the question of putting Club before Country.
Firstly I must say I've really enjoyed reading the exchanges/comments on here & am glad the moderators have applied reason to the often passionate feelings that have emerged. 
With passion, often out of the window goes reason....  so my observations come from many years of following the fortunes of England since witnessing, as a 19 year old,  the '66 win.
Since then English club football & England as a nation have changed immeasurably. In those days we had little understanding of 'Johnny Foreigner' & his footballing ways other than they were dishonest & crafty. All the Eng team was, without question, white, home grown, home bred & all over England HRM's subjects stood in cinemas for the National Anthem after the evenings film. However over the years things have steadily changed & we, like most of the Western world, have, inevitably, become an increasingly multi-ethnic , multi-cultural nation where religion & cap-doffing is of less & less significance & the establishment have been exposed for what they are.
It was therefore, as a long term Eng follower, exceedingly disappointing to hear the Ingerlanders calling out for my team to have to sing (Queenie's Song) The British National Anthem, & for Hodgson to have to get them to agree to it thus causing problems for any Republican &/or atheists members. Also I must say I'm not sure when it was that England grabbed this UK/British Anthem for their own thus ignoring other UK members.
It's now long past the time that we had a real National Song that ALL English citizens can relate to, sing with pride & will bond individuals of all cultures and backgrounds in those moments before they go onto the pitch and let their passion show otherwise how will we ever be able to put together the strongest side from our diverse Nation.
		
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Break out the hovis and the newspaper for bogroll...Those were the days!!!!!


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## standrew (Jun 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			More shambles than successes....  that's for sure
		
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As a neutral i think 86 was a fair result given the team, lack of john barnes etc. 90 was definately a good achievement, W Germany couldve scored about 5 in that game. 98 semis would have been fair given strength of Brazil and France.

I dont really know when England have underachieved given ability at the particular time.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			Spot on Papa.....  not a lot was expected of England so why be surprised with the result ??? but, .....  Other than a few 'this or that's' we'd be through.......   certainly not the shambles I've seen over the 5 decades of watching England.
		
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The performances were better than SA, anyone who thinks otherwise either has a short memory or knows nothing about football. They were also more encouraging the the last Euro's. The results weren't good but in every game we created enough chances for the outcome to be different. Remember Rooney's chances against Italy & Uruguay? Sturridge's chances tonight? Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of work to be done but at least now we look like we can finally move forward with some exciting youngsters and not rely and the same old faces who have failed year after year.

Sure there were individual errors and we needed to be more clinical in front of goal but it wasn't as bad as some make out. And lets face it, not 2 weeks ago most people were predicting we wouldn't get through the group.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 24, 2014)

I think we have potential now. Get rid of Gerrard, Lampard etc and get the young players in and blooded in the EC campaign. I think Rooney still has a place in the squad. Is he the potent goalscorer we need. Well his record, WC aside would argue yes and to be honest who is the out and out and proven replacement


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## NWJocko (Jun 24, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The performances were better than SA, anyone who thinks otherwise either has a short memory or knows nothing about football. They were also more encouraging the the last Euro's. The results weren't good but in every game we created enough chances for the outcome to be different. Remember Rooney's chances against Italy & Uruguay? Sturridge's chances tonight? Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of work to be done but at least now we look like we can finally move forward with some exciting youngsters and not rely and the same old faces who have failed year after year.

Sure there were individual errors and we needed to be more clinical in front of goal but it wasn't as bad as some make out. And lets face it, not 2 weeks ago most people were predicting we wouldn't get through the group.
		
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Was just going to say that it wasnt great but England were worse, probably by a distance, in South Africa 4 years back when they were truly dire and had zero ambition.


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## 2blue (Jun 24, 2014)

Fish said:



			Were did you cut & paste that from, I've read your posts before and their not your words 

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No C & P Robin.....  'twas spoken from the heart



Rumpokid said:



			Break out the hovis and the newspaper for bogroll...Those were the days!!!!!
		
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Wake up fella...  21st century is here...  please pay attention.....  England has changed:ears:


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think we have potential now. Get rid of Gerrard, Lampard etc and get the young players in and blooded in the EC campaign. I think Rooney still has a place in the squad. Is he the potent goalscorer we need. Well his record, WC aside would argue yes and to be honest who is the out and out and proven replacement
		
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Never minds the individuals you have mentioned (I agree btw),but hasn't this being getting said for 20 years now - "Bring the kids in, build for the next tournament" - When are they going to be ready, then?

Nice words 2blue BTW, I could hear the Wurlitzer in the background.


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## Slab (Jun 25, 2014)

Well that game was mince!

Cant believe how many times possession was given up (not taken away) simply unforced errors all over the park, by both teams

Looking at England in particular (just cos I'm more familiar with those players) the performance reminded me of a pre season club game where a few new faces have joined in the transfer window and the players now need some games to learn how to play as a team 




Liverpoolphil said:



			Listening to Hodgson on 5 Live on the radio shows why England will never improve - you would think England qualified
		
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Agree, I think he was overly positive about a poor performance at a time when he really should have been speaking a little more frankly


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2014)

dontfancythisputt said:



			What I cant stand is in my view a lack of effort to change a score when you have nothing to loose. *Against Uruguay I saw Rooney try to beat 4 men on his own and nearly succeed the trouble was it was 88 mins and he was alone in his efforts. That kind of desire from 3 or 4 more mid way through the second half would have got us something im sure.*

I dont for a minute doubt the desire of each individual but in my view the collective desire a well gelled team need is missing.
		
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At 88 minutes 2-1 down that's not desire, that's desperation

The last manager to make a brave courageous decision to pick a cohesive team instead of trying to incorporate individuals was Sir Alf in 1966 with dropping Jimmy Greaves.  And look how that turned out.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			It's now long past the time that we had a real National Song that ALL English citizens can relate to, sing with pride & will bond individuals of all cultures and backgrounds in those moments before they go onto the pitch and let their passion show otherwise how will we ever be able to put together the strongest side from our diverse Nation.
		
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Price Tag by Jessie J??


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2014)

I heard comments on radio 5 live yesterday but can't remember by who. In Germany and the Netherlands their national sides are considered THE most important football in those countries, the nation FA's, over recent years and after earlier failures, dictate to the league clubs the style of football that the coaches at national level planned to adopt and that league teams should do too so that all players are schooled in a way that that benefits them at the top level

In England the PL is too powerful and the FA is almost dictated to by the PL and no such system would work, probably not least, because most of the top teams providing the players are run by non English coaches whose interest doesn't lie with helping the national team as any sort of priority.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 25, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I heard comments on radio 5 live yesterday but can't remember by who. In Germany and the Netherlands their national sides are considered THE most important football in those countries, the nation FA's, over recent years and after earlier failures, dictate to the league clubs the style of football that the coaches at national level planned to adopt and that league teams should do too so that all players are schooled in a way that that benefits them at the top level

In England the PL is too powerful and the FA is almost dictated to by the PL and no such system would work, probably not least, because most of the top teams providing the players are run by non English coaches whose interest doesn't lie with helping the national team as any sort of priority.
		
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I think this is the crux of the problem. All of football should revolve around the national team, as it does in Rugby and Cricket for example. Somewhere along the line, that has changed in England and until it reverts back, nothing will ever change


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I think this is the crux of the problem. All of football should revolve around the national team, as it does in Rugby and Cricket for example. Somewhere along the line, that has changed in England and until it reverts back, nothing will ever change
		
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I cant ever remember football ever revolving around the national team and nor should it ever do that in this country.

Never should the sport revolve around a team based in one city whilst there are hundreds of professional clubs

The set up is totally different to both cricket and rugby 

England arent poor because of club football - England are poor because of failings in coaching before players get to clubs. 

And i bet the German FA doesnt dictate to Barce what style they play or to Dortmund because both teams play a different style- what i heard on Radio was that both the German and Dutch and Spanish have all the national teams play the same style and formation from under 15 through to full national.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I cant ever remember football ever revolving around the national team and nor should it ever do that in this country.

Never should the sport revolve around a team based in one city whilst there are hundreds of professional clubs

The set up is totally different to both cricket and rugby 

England arent poor because of club football - England are poor because of failings in coaching before players get to clubs. 

And i bet the German FA doesnt dictate to Barce what style they play or to Dortmund because both teams play a different style- what i heard on Radio was that both the German and Dutch and Spanish have all the national teams play the same style and formation from under 15 through to full national.
		
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I disagree and think that the pinnacle of any playing career is to guide your country to a major tournament. Thats exactly what Germany and Spain do, looking to peak at the WC and EC. However the major difference is that their associations work in conjunction with clubs and the league in a more unified way and they have the blueprint in place for youth development and club and country level already in place. As you said yourself elsewhere, Germany took a risk and played their youngsters last time out accepting they'd fail but would be stronger and better for it. Look at them now, already growing into a young and competitive side with at least the next EC and WC together


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## HawkeyeMS (Jun 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I cant ever remember football ever revolving around the national team and nor should it ever do that in this country.

Never should the sport revolve around a team based in one city whilst there are hundreds of professional clubs

The set up is totally different to both cricket and rugby 

England arent poor because of club football - England are poor because of failings in coaching before players get to clubs. 

And i bet the German FA doesnt dictate to Barce what style they play or to Dortmund because both teams play a different style- what i heard on Radio was that both the German and Dutch and Spanish have all the national teams play the same style and formation from under 15 through to full national.
		
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You mean like Rugby does with Twickenham?

This isn't about where you live (and therefore, hard though it may be to be believe, it isn't about you), it's about the *national* team. Playing for your country should be the pinnacle of your career, it used to be, now it isn't. Why is it that smaller teams with less resources can perform with more spirit than England? I mean, are you telling me Iran and Cameroon who in the last couple of days have shown more passion and team spirit against 2 of the tournament favourites than I have seen from an England team in 20 years have better coaching than England?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You mean like Rugby does with Twickenham?

This isn't about where you live (and therefore, hard though it may be to be believe, it isn't about you), it's about the *national* team. Playing for your country should be the pinnacle of your career, it used to be, now it isn't. Why is it that smaller teams with less resources can perform with more spirit than England? I mean, are you telling me Iran and Cameroon who in the last couple of days have shown more passion and team spirit against 2 of the tournament favourites than I have seen from an England team in 20 years have better coaching than England?
		
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Think you can add Algeria to that list too


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## MadAdey (Jun 25, 2014)

It still comes down to one thing IMO and I have said it many times before. Stop making kids play on full size pitches with full sized goals at such a young age as all they are learning is the long ball game. I have watched kids that are probably 13/14 playing a match in Ibiza before. They played on a small pitch with small goals like we do at u9's and u10's, it is no wonder other countries develop players who know how to pass and find space and work with the ball in confined areas. A lot of countries from what I have read play on reduced pitches with smaller goals up until they are about 14, to make the players learn technical skills from an early age.


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## Jack_bfc (Jun 25, 2014)

I thought we did.


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## 2blue (Jun 25, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It still comes down to one thing IMO and I have said it many times before. Stop making kids play on full size pitches with full sized goals at such a young age as all they are learning is the long ball game. I have watched kids that are probably 13/14 playing a match in Ibiza before. They played on a small pitch with small goals like we do at u9's and u10's, it is no wonder other countries develop players who know how to pass and find space and work with the ball in confined areas. A lot of countries from what I have read play on reduced pitches with smaller goals up until they are about 14, to make the players learn technical skills from an early age.
		
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But that is happening nowadays, tho' not to 14. Still it's won't address the passion & pride for country that everyone is harping on about, that will only be addressed when folk feel a real sense of bonding to the Nation....  I personally have to walk out during the singing of 'Queenie's Song' as it's such an embarrassment to see people so detached from it but yet required to go through the durable procedure.......  in stead just look at the Yanks pride in their TRULEY National Song....  also look at the words and sentiments....  a world apart, no wonder there are some who weep



Liverbirdie said:



			Never minds the individuals you have mentioned (I agree btw),but hasn't this being getting said for 20 years now - "Bring the kids in, build for the next tournament" - When are they going to be ready, then?

Nice words 2blue BTW, I could hear the Wurlitzer in the background.
		
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I'm all for 'You'll never walk alone' as England's new National Song. Has more feeling.... &.....  meaning


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## Snelly (Jun 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I cant ever remember football ever revolving around the national team and nor should it ever do that in this country.
		
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Why not? 

I think it would be very easy to do. Salary cap (as in rugby union) for the Premier League. Then adopt the central contracts idea from cricket and make the salary for the nationally contracted players three times the cap.  Job done.  Pinnacle of financial achievement (which it would seem is the main driver for our pampered proles) would come from national recognition and representing England.

Can't happen though.  Football in this country is corrupt, self-serving and a moral vacuum.  A genuine opiate for the masses.  Unrecoverable I would say.  Too many simpletons at every level in football from fan to Premier League CEO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 25, 2014)

Because you would have to adopt that system world wide 

In cricket and rugby and even hockey when England contract players they don't play for their clubs regulary - they are with England day on day out training - rugby etc can cope with internationals being away because the amount of international teams playing is vastly smaller than in football - that's why the players get more money from their country 

To do that in football teams would lose most of their players especially from the top two divisions - because there are hundreds of countries playing international football. That's why club teams around the world don't play when internationals are on. The FA hardly pay the players as it is now. 

Football in this country is no different than others - in fact it's prob less corrupt here than in many other counties in Europe. 

Football cannot be compared to other sports like rugby - it's not a workable model in any country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2014)

I think the fact that the manager had to order his English players to sing the British national anthem speaks volumes.

They really did look a sorry miserable bunch when the anthem [the wrong one] was played. No passion, no pride.


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the fact that the manager had to order his English players to sing the British national anthem speaks volumes.

They really did look a sorry miserable bunch when the anthem [the wrong one] was played. No passion, no pride.
		
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Trouble is that there aren't many songs that could replace the National Anthem. 2 Blue suggested "you'll never walk alone" well that's a non starter immediately.

I frankly wouldn't care if they sung  "My old mans a dustman" I don't see that having any bearing on the way we play. We are, and have been for years, miles behind the rest of the world in technique, skills and endeavour, and until we stop chopping and changing managers, play a form of football right through all our national squads and only pick those willing to die for their country we will, sadly, be going back over this issue after the Euros and subsequent World Cups.


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## MadAdey (Jun 25, 2014)

Forget all this crap about pride and singing anthems. Scottish players always sing 'flower of Scotland' at the top of their voices and they still loose. Our problem is that our players just do not have the technical abilities that foreign players do, that is why our top clubs use them, instead of English players in positions that require those skills. Look at this list of players that I think are the ones that have the ability to work in tight spaces and dribble past players, not just use power and pace.

Man City: Silva & Nasri
L'pool: Couthino & Suarez
Chelsea: Oscar & Hazard
Arsenal: Cazorla & Ozil

please prove me wrong and tell me of one English player that can regularly pick the ball up in a tight position surrounded by players and still come ou the other side with the ball. We looked good for the first half and hour or so against Italy when they where pushing forward and allowing us to use our power and pace, but as soon as they dropped back and tightened things up it was a different story.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Forget all this crap about pride and singing anthems. Scottish players always sing 'flower of Scotland' at the top of their voices and they still loose.
		
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Jeez you are living in the past


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2014)

Don't really care what they sing. Unless their entering Eurovision it's their ability to score more goals than their opponents that counts. The FA would never be seen to banish the national anthem so its academic.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			But that is happening nowadays, tho' not to 14. Still it's won't address the passion & pride for country that everyone is harping on about, that will only be addressed when folk feel a real sense of bonding to the Nation....  I personally have to walk out during the singing of 'Queenie's Song' as it's such an embarrassment to see people so detached from it but yet required to go through the durable procedure.......  in stead just look at the Yanks pride in their TRULEY National Song....  also look at the words and sentiments....  a world apart, no wonder there are some who weep



I'm all for 'You'll never walk alone' as England's new National Song. Has more feeling.... &.....  meaning
		
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Hands off, it's ours!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2014)

Can you just imagine England v Germany at Wembley and an anthem with 80,000 fans singing YNWA.
That would be magic.


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## Dodger (Jun 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Forget all this crap about pride and singing anthems. *Scottish players always sing 'flower of Scotland' at the top of their voices and they still loose*. Our problem is that our players just do not have the technical abilities that foreign players do, that is why our top clubs use them, instead of English players in positions that require those skills. Look at this list of players that I think are the ones that have the ability to work in tight spaces and dribble past players, not just use power and pace.

Man City: Silva & Nasri
L'pool: Couthino & Suarez
Chelsea: Oscar & Hazard
Arsenal: Cazorla & Ozil

please prove me wrong and tell me of one English player that can regularly pick the ball up in a tight position surrounded by players and still come ou the other side with the ball. We looked good for the first half and hour or so against Italy when they where pushing forward and allowing us to use our power and pace, but as soon as they dropped back and tightened things up it was a different story.
		
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They don't by the way.

And it's lose.


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## Fish (Jun 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you just imagine England v Germany at Wembley and an anthem with 80,000 fans singing YNWA.
That would be magic.
		
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Your assuming everyone would sing it, they wouldn't!


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## CMAC (Jun 26, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Forget all this crap about pride and singing anthems. Scottish players always sing 'flower of Scotland' at the top of their voices and they still loose. Our problem is that our players just do not have the technical abilities that foreign players do, that is why our top clubs use them, instead of English players in positions that require those skills. Look at this list of players that I think are the ones that have the ability to work in tight spaces and dribble past players, not just use power and pace.

Man City: Silva & Nasri
L'pool: Couthino & Suarez
Chelsea: Oscar & Hazard
Arsenal: Cazorla & Ozil

please prove me wrong and tell me of one English player that can regularly pick the ball up in a tight position surrounded by players and still come ou the other side with the ball. We looked good for the first half and hour or so against Italy when they where pushing forward and allowing us to use our power and pace, but as soon as they dropped back and tightened things up it was a different story.
		
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its not about the skill level as many have some great skills, imo its about the coaching and management that want teamwork and passing over individual skills. A player tries to show flair once and if he loses the ball he's lambasted by everyone and told to pass pass pass, their flair and creativity is beaten out of them early on with tags of 'selfish player' or 'poacher'.

I counted 7 consecutive passes between the same 2 English defenders in one game, it looked like neither wanted to make a short run for fear of losing the ball, one just blootered it up the park eventually.

I could be way off the mark but just my opinion.



oh and Dodgers right, it's lose!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2014)

CMAC said:



			I counted 7 consecutive passes between the same 2 English defenders in one game, it looked like neither wanted to make a short run for fear of losing the ball.
		
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Oh come on, that is just not fair, they were trying to play like Spain.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 26, 2014)

We can never replicate what Germany and Holland do, as far as coaching the same way at all levels through to the full International team. And the reason quite simply is: there is too much money involved in Football, and in a selfish way nobody cares as long as there is this vast amount of money available to the greedy..............

In my view there is only one Englishman that has the necessary knowledge and know how to pull together an England Team that will be competitive and play with the freedom and passion that will at least give us hope for the future.

And that man is Glen Hoddle - and before anybody mentions it, I'm sure he has learned from his past mistakes.
Remember, he had the balls to send Gascoine home, why did he do that? Because he was serious about the job in hand and would not be distracted by his fun and frolics around the camp in the build up to the World Cup. He was brave enough to give youth a chance - Michael Owen and David Beckham. Just a shame we had "That" ref who sent Beckham off.
I really think he should have been given more time to build a team with his attention to detail and Management skills. 

But I doubt it will happen with the present encumbent.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			Your assuming everyone would sing it, they wouldn't!
		
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Spot on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Spot on.
		
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They need to do something, a country the size of England without a national anthem is embarrassing.

Perhaps they should have a competition for a tune with that bearded guy from the choir.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			We can never replicate what Germany and Holland do, as far as coaching the same way at all levels through to the full International team. And the reason quite simply is: there is too much money involved in Football, and in a selfish way nobody cares as long as there is this vast amount of money available to the greedy..............

In my view there is only one Englishman that has the necessary knowledge and know how to pull together an England Team that will be competitive and play with the freedom and passion that will at least give us hope for the future.

And that man is Glen Hoddle - and before anybody mentions it, I'm sure he has learned from his past mistakes.
Remember, he had the balls to send Gascoine home, why did he do that? Because he was serious about the job in hand and would not be distracted by his fun and frolics around the camp in the build up to the World Cup. He was brave enough to give youth a chance - Michael Owen and David Beckham. Just a shame we had "That" ref who sent Beckham off.
I really think he should have been given more time to build a team with his attention to detail and Management skills. 

But I doubt it will happen with the present encumbent.
		
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I know, if it wasn't for 'that ref' and not the fact that he had the potential talents of the golden generation at their prime but failed to go past a quarter final, we'd be world beaters.


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## Beezerk (Jun 27, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			We can never replicate what Germany and Holland do, as far as coaching the same way at all levels through to the full International team. And the reason quite simply is: there is too much money involved in Football, and in a selfish way nobody cares as long as there is this vast amount of money available to the greedy..............

In my view there is only one Englishman that has the necessary knowledge and know how to pull together an England Team that will be competitive and play with the freedom and passion that will at least give us hope for the future.

And that man is Glen Hoddle - and before anybody mentions it, I'm sure he has learned from his past mistakes.
Remember, he had the balls to send Gascoine home, why did he do that? Because he was serious about the job in hand and would not be distracted by his fun and frolics around the camp in the build up to the World Cup. He was brave enough to give youth a chance - Michael Owen and David Beckham. Just a shame we had "That" ref who sent Beckham off.
I really think he should have been given more time to build a team with his attention to detail and Management skills. 

But I doubt it will happen with the present encumbent.
		
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I always thought Hoddle and Venables were the two best England managers to leave the post well before their time.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2014)

CMAC said:



			its not about the skill level as many have some great skills, imo its about the coaching and management that want teamwork and passing over individual skills. A player tries to show flair once and if he loses the ball he's lambasted by everyone and told to pass pass pass, their flair and creativity is beaten out of them early on with tags of 'selfish player' or 'poacher'.

I counted 7 consecutive passes between the same 2 English defenders in one game, it looked like neither wanted to make a short run for fear of losing the ball, one just blootered it up the park eventually.

I could be way off the mark but just my opinion.



oh and Dodgers right, it's lose!
		
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Blame stupid crapple iPads, they do have a way of changing what you write if your not careful........

can an you tell me one player at the minute that really has the ability to dribble the ball past players. I'm not talking about the likes of Walcott and Sterling who use pace, but some like Suarez who can dribble round players in the area on a regular basis. When ever you watch match MOTD it is always foreigners that are the ones weaving in and out of players with the ball at their feet, not the English players.


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## MadAdey (Jun 27, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			I always thought Hoddle and Venables were the two best England managers to leave the post well before their time.
		
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It was a shame wasn't it. But venables was going into a big old court case so needed to give up the job and Hoddle made one stupid remark. I still wonder how the FA selects head coaches though. McClaren, had a couple of good seasons in charge of Middlesbrough, no offence to Boro' fans but it was hardly a high profile job with top end players. Then you get the wonderful Woy, took over at Liverpool and god knows what would have happened there if he did not get the boot from that job. Got rid of decent players and replaced them with crap, Then the FA give him the England job.


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## Fish (Jun 27, 2014)

It hurts me say as I see him mainly as a spurs man first and foremost, but, the starting point when the Chelsea revolution began and the club transformed itself from the struggling one of the 80's and early 90's to the global side they are now was under Glenn Hoddle's management between 1993 to 1996.

Hoddle was a stylish player and he carried that ethos into his management and transformed the style of play to one not seen at the Bridge since the early 70's.  His signings of Mark Hughes and especially Ruud Gullit were sensations at the time and took Chelsea into another league in terms of quality and reputation and would in turn allow Gullit, when he took over, to attract the likes of Di Matteo, Leboeuf and Zola and then many others, all pre-Abramovich.

Hoddle set the foundations, both on and as importantly off the pitch, but the lure of England meant he wasn't able to see it through to it's full trophy winning potential himself, if Jose wasn't manager would I have him back, yes in a heartbeat.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2014)

The team Hoddle/Gorman built at Swindon played beautiful football.
It was basically a team of lower division players and a couple of seniors.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 27, 2014)

I did like this one.....


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## Val (Jun 27, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Hands off, it's ours!
		
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No it's not


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## Fish (Jun 27, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Hands off, it's ours!
		
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Valentino said:



			No it's not 

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and you can both keep it :smirk:


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Then you get the wonderful Woy, took over at Liverpool and god knows what would have happened there if he did not get the boot from that job. Got rid of decent players and replaced them with crap, Then the FA give him the England job.
		
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He had previous international experience and at the time England were looking for someone English.  As the FA always lurch from foreign manager who can't connect with the English lads to English manager who can connect but tactically is not at the races, and then back to a foreign manager etc etc. And after Capello we needed an English manager, and at the time he was the best man for the job.  

It's a bit like the players, it's a bit pointless blaming him and saying if he had someone else it would be a lot different, as it would not.  There are more underlying fundamental problems that a new manager or replacing Gerrard won't change. And if that is all we do then we will continue making the same mistakes.


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## richy (Jun 27, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			It was a shame wasn't it. But venables was going into a big old court case so needed to give up the job and Hoddle made one stupid remark. I still wonder how the FA selects head coaches though. McClaren, had a couple of good seasons in charge of Middlesbrough, no offence to Boro' fans but it was hardly a high profile job with top end players. Then you get the wonderful Woy, took over at Liverpool and god knows what would have happened there if he did not get the boot from that job. Got rid of decent players and replaced them with crap, Then the FA give him the England job.
		
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Mclaren had been sven's assistant and stepped up 

Hodgson left WBA to manage England plus he has lots of experience before Liverpool.


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## Golfmmad (Jun 27, 2014)

Fish said:



			It hurts me say as I see him mainly as a spurs man first and foremost, but, the starting point when the Chelsea revolution began and the club transformed itself from the struggling one of the 80's and early 90's to the global side they are now was under Glenn Hoddle's management between 1993 to 1996.

Hoddle was a stylish player and he carried that ethos into his management and transformed the style of play to one not seen at the Bridge since the early 70's.  His signings of Mark Hughes and especially Ruud Gullit were sensations at the time and took Chelsea into another league in terms of quality and reputation and would in turn allow Gullit, when he took over, to attract the likes of Di Matteo, Leboeuf and Zola and then many others, all pre-Abramovich.

Hoddle set the foundations, both on and as importantly off the pitch, but the lure of England meant he wasn't able to see it through to it's full trophy winning potential himself, if Jose wasn't manager would I have him back, yes in a heartbeat.
		
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Spot on Fish, and I'd forgotten all about Hoddle's stint at Chelsea, and Swindon too! Where did all of those years go.

I have just as much respect for Venables too - maybe they could make it a joint venture?


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 27, 2014)

Why has Hoddle not been mentioned for other big jobs? An excellent manager,talks a lot of sense as a pundit aswell.


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