# Will the new 90% handicap difference put you off 4BBB



## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 19, 2015)

Will the incoming 90% difference in 4BBB put you off entering these competitions at your club?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 19, 2015)

Golf is run for high handicap bandits, giving them more shots will only mean low players will stop entering these.


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## Birchy (Dec 19, 2015)

Jacko_G said:



			Golf is run for high handicap bandits, giving them more shots will only mean low players will stop entering these.
		
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:rofl:


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## bladeplayer (Dec 19, 2015)

Nah.. I only play in them if there is not an open singles on somewhere near , so same will apply for me


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

We only really have one comp with 4BBB

It's social games where it will be effected mostly


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Will the incoming 90% difference in 4BBB put you off entering these competitions at your club?
		
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We have two BB events at the club, one combined stableford and one best score per hole. Won't put me off but finding a new partner may be trickier


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 19, 2015)

why isnt it 100% I have no problem with it at all.


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## Oxfordcomma (Dec 19, 2015)

Does it make that much difference, given that it's betterball? It's not until you reach Cat 4 handicaps that the shots gained (moving from 0.75 > 0.9) is more than 2, and the vast majority of cat 1/cat 2 players are gaining a shot themselves anyway.


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## Lump (Dec 19, 2015)

I suspect as pointed out, it'll be the low handicappers that dislike this. I can't remember the last time I got shots in matchplay.
3/4 makes it fair, giving more shots to people won't be pleasant.


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 19, 2015)

Lump said:



			I suspect as pointed out, it'll be the low handicappers that dislike this. I can't remember the last time I got shots in matchplay.
3/4 makes it fair, giving more shots to people won't be pleasant.
		
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why does 3/4 make it fair when the statistics actually prove that to be equal the difference should be 105%


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## bladeplayer (Dec 19, 2015)

Its not the 90% or the 3/4 that's the problem its the bandits , if handicaps were honest it wouldn't be an issue , genuine 8 plays a genuine 18, or genuine 4 v genuine 20  the game could go either was as both have different ability , bandits will adjust, no matter what the % differences are.. harsh but true


But the thread is will it put u off playing in them or not after the change


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Its not the 90% or the 3/4 that's the problem its the bandits , if handicaps were honest it wouldn't be an issue , genuine 8 plays a genuine 18, or genuine 4 v genuine 20  the game could go either was as both have different ability , bandits will adjust, no matter what the % differences are.. harsh but true


But the thread is will it make any difference to u personally  whether u play in them or not
		
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Summed up well - it's why I avoid the Nike etc


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## bladeplayer (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Summed up well - it's why I avoid the Nike etc
		
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Apologies Phil I slightly edited my original post , means same just worded differently


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Apologies Phil I slightly edited my original post , means same just worded differently
		
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No apologies needed - still summed up nicely :thup:


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## patricks148 (Dec 19, 2015)

prob not as i won't be bothering with these at all next year. nothing to do with handicap diff, more that its a pain to organise.


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## Stuey01 (Dec 19, 2015)

4bbb match play is my favourite form of the game.  It won't prevent me playing.  
Of course off 11 I am receiving shots about as often as I am giving them.


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## louise_a (Dec 19, 2015)

We have two 4BBB comps, one is a knockout, the other is a qualifier for the national Ping 4BBB competition, I wil still play in both.
Will also the MGT Algarve again, its well worth it.


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## 3565 (Dec 19, 2015)

yes it was biased years ago towards the low hc's, but now it's gone the complete opposite....... They may as well give 100%. I got stuffed 3&2 by a 13&14 hc and they got 8 shots each, next year at 90% they'll get 10 shots each........ So nope, I won't play in them no more.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2015)

Low h/cap golfers sadly forget where they started.
But is there certain h/ c level when they start to grudge giving shots to genuine h/ c players??? (bandits exclude).

IMO nobody should get 2shots at any hole.:rofl:.

But I do  love winning against young whippersnapper low h/ c golfers,:smirk:
 I love getting shots especially in a glass.


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## delc (Dec 19, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Will the incoming 90% difference in 4BBB put you off entering these competitions at your club?
		
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No, because at most it only makes a shot or two difference.  I might try to find a good high handicap partner though!


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2015)

If I could remember every game I'd played I bet I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times a higher handicapper has beaten me if I play well. If I'm on my game I've pretty much mullered the opposition. Will giving them an extra couple of shots really make that much difference? First of all, they've got to take advantage of the extra shots they will receive - not seen that many higher handicappers who can turn it on for specific holes.

And if I don't play well I don't begrudge losing.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			If I could remember every game I'd played I bet I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times a higher handicapper has beaten me if I play well. If I'm on my game I've pretty much mullered the opposition. Will giving them an extra couple of shots really make that much difference? First of all, they've got to take advantage of the extra shots they will receive - not seen that many higher handicappers who can turn it on for specific holes.

And if I don't play well I don't begrudge losing.
		
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:thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			If I could remember every game I'd played I bet I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times a higher handicapper has beaten me if I play well. If I'm on my game I've pretty much mullered the opposition. Will giving them an extra couple of shots really make that much difference? First of all, they've got to take advantage of the extra shots they will receive - not seen that many higher handicappers who can turn it on for specific holes.

And if I don't play well I don't begrudge losing.
		
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No good spouting your commonsense on this thread, you're meant to be bitter and twisted and should be stamping your feet&#128515;


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			:thup:
		
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Edit, Brian , were you not a scratch player at one time ?.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

What about as today when you do play well and indeed better than your HC yet still get stuffed. 

The next change will be to 100% 

Then it will be give extra shots 

Got to give people with higher HC a better chance of winning apparently 

There is a simpler way to have a better chance of winning - improve


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about as today when you do play well and indeed better than your HC yet still get stuffed. 

The next change will be to 100% 

Then it will be give extra shots 

Got to give people with higher HC a better chance of winning apparently 

There is a simpler way to have a better chance of winning - improve
		
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Why shouldn't it be 100% though, are the bandits that rife in every club?
If I play you, me 14, you 5, I get shots on 1-9, don't you hold the upper hand on the other 9?
At 90%  I'd get 8 and you'd have the upper hand on 10, how's that fair?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Why shouldn't it be 100% though, are the bandits that rife in every club?
If I play you, me 14, you 5, I get shots on 1-9, don't you hold the upper hand on the other 9?
At 90%  I'd get 8 and you'd have the upper hand on 10, how's that fair?
		
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It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par

Today i went round level my PP 1 over 

Our oppo 14 and 15 as a combined went round level gross

Can't compete against that.

But it's why I don't enter HC KO anymore


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## AMcC (Dec 19, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			IMO nobody should get 2shots at any hole.:rofl:.
		
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I am sure that one of the rules at our club is no one can get more than 18 shots in the club matchplay / knockout comps.


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par

Today i went round level my PP 1 over 

Our oppo 14 and 15 as a combined went round level gross

Can't compete against that.

But it's why I don't enter HC KO anymore
		
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And you and your playing partner have two chances to get a birdie.

14 & 15 handicappers rarely post scores like that.

My regular PP and I, off 5 and 7, used to set ourselves a target of 4 under gross, and win by the 16th hole. We've got an fantastic record, including a number of 8&7's. Giving a few extra shots won't make much difference.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par

Today i went round level my PP 1 over 

Our oppo 14 and 15 as a combined went round level gross

Can't compete against that.

But it's why I don't enter HC KO anymore
		
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But how many times out of ten would your opponents play to that level (unless they're bandits), were as you and your partner are more likely to replicate your round.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But how many times out of ten would your opponents play to that level (unless they're bandits), were as you and your partner are more likely to replicate your round.
		
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In Matchplay KO - once is enough to get you through.


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## AMcC (Dec 19, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			14 & 15 handicappers rarely post scores like that.
.
		
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My partner who plays off 5 and I normally enter the 4 ball knockout which runs through the summer. I was off 18 a couple of seasons ago, and in one round I hit the par 4, 6th hole, stroke index 1 green in 2 shots and they were struggling a bit but when I rolled my 20 foot putt for a 3 nett 2 cue much swearing from our opponents. 
I will add that , yes it doesn't happen too often but certainly remember it well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In Matchplay KO - once is enough to get you through.
		
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But unlikely to repeat it in next round.


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## 3565 (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par

Today i went round level my PP 1 over 

Our oppo 14 and 15 as a combined went round level gross

Can't compete against that.

But it's why I don't enter HC KO anymore
		
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got to agree with this. 

For 2 cat 1 players to play together will be suicide next year, I don't shoot under my hc on a regular basis, but that's what'll have to happen next year and to say that 1 or 2 shots to higher hc's won't make much difference....... It will to them. 
 the R&A will be pleased tho, the rounds will be much shorter


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## huds1475 (Dec 19, 2015)

I play off 19.

Will it put me off? No. 

I play to improve, not to win

Will it improve my chances of winning? Doubt it. Unless I improve.


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## woody69 (Dec 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par

Today i went round level my PP 1 over 

Our oppo 14 and 15 as a combined went round level gross

Can't compete against that.

*But it's why I don't enter HC KO anymore*

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Didn't have you down as such a sore loser TBH.


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## evahakool (Dec 20, 2015)

woody69 said:



			Didn't have you down as such a sore loser TBH.
		
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Nor did I to be honest, Hobbit gives a more balanced view IMO , taking the bandits out of the equation the better players will win more than they lose.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 20, 2015)

evahakool said:



			Nor did I to be honest, Hobbit gives a more balanced view IMO , taking the bandits out of the equation the better players will win more than they lose.
		
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:thup:


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2015)

What a bunch of whiners high h/c are. It is still 90% of the allowance, not 100%. You still have an advantage.


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## chellie (Dec 20, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What a bunch of whiners high h/c are. It is still 90% of the allowance, not 100%. You still have an advantage.
		
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I thought it was the low HC's who were moaning


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2015)

chellie said:



			I thought it was the low HC's who were moaning

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Typo - You were right. What a muppet.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2015)

chellie said:



			I thought it was the low HC's who were moaning

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Here's one low handicapper who has never moaned about being beat by a high handicapper. Its up to me to play well, and if the other guy plays better, fair play to them. In the majority of games, if the low handicapper is knocking it long down the middle and putting it on the green pretty much every time the high handicapper crumbles under the pressure. They start trying to play like the low handicapper, forcing every shot, instead of playing with their shots.

I can't see giving someone 2 or 3 more shots changing their mind set much.


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## Fyldewhite (Dec 20, 2015)

Firstly, I'm all for the full handicap allowance in singles, the reasoning is pretty sound and overall the lower handicapper is still slight favourite. However, it's well recognised that higher handicappers score more randomly. On a round by round basis in general handicapping theory but also on a hole by hole basis. You see scoring patterns like 4,3,4,7,5,3,4,8,8 etc. But in better ball, the partner is likely to have the same sort of pattern but with the bad holes distributed differently. Compared to the more consistent low handicappers this "Tom and Jerry" effect can make for very good (some would say "silly") scores and I always thought that the 3/4 allowance was to help balance this by giving the higher handicappers fewer shots.

To me this change is exactly the opposite of the singles change a few years ago.......taking a situation where the higher handicappers have an advantage and increasing that advantage. Not that I enter many currently, but yes I'd be less likely to now and see this as a completely unnecessary change.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Firstly, I'm all for the full handicap allowance in singles, the reasoning is pretty sound and overall the lower handicapper is still slight favourite. However, it's well recognised that higher handicappers score more randomly. On a round by round basis in general handicapping theory but also on a hole by hole basis. You see scoring patterns like 4,3,4,7,5,3,4,8,8 etc. But in better ball, the partner is likely to have the same sort of pattern but with the bad holes distributed differently. Compared to the more consistent low handicappers this "Tom and Jerry" effect can make for very good (some would say "silly") scores and I always thought that the 3/4 allowance was to help balance this by giving the higher handicappers fewer shots.

To me this change is exactly the opposite of the singles change a few years ago.......taking a situation where the higher handicappers have an advantage and increasing that advantage. Not that I enter many currently, but yes I'd be less likely to now and see this as a completely unnecessary change.
		
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Good post, and yes it is unneccessary. It won't stop me playing and it won't make a huge difference IMHO.  

Give it 10yrs and it'll be one arm tied behind your back if you're under 10 h'cap, and hopping on one leg if under 5.


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 20, 2015)

Brian the change has been made because the statistics show that the lower h/cap player has had an advantage over the higher h/cap player .[dont ask where the stats are i cant remember but i have no reason to lie]as i have already posted and which it seems everyone has ignored [thats their choice by the way]that to make the game equal in terms of percentage of shots given the percentage should be 105%
  you never know someone might just take note ,i doubt it and the low h/cappers will still bleat on about how unfair life is being so good at golf .
   just because you are a cat1 or there about it dosent give you a god given rite to beat a higher h/capper.


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## the smiling assassin (Dec 20, 2015)

It's about time CONGU stopped kidding themselves that handicap allowances are the issue and sort out the actual handicap itself. The system works fairly well for assigning a handicap for use in competitive medal play (assuming regular participation), but it's completely inappropriate to use these handicaps for friendly relaxed games, Matchplay, team games because none of these formats figure in the calculation of a golfers handicap. It's simple but for some reason they don't see it


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2015)

Scrambles and 4BBB are pretty poor forms of golf. IMO.
When I played I avoided them like the plague.


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2015)

The poacher said:



			Brian the change has been made because the statistics show that the lower h/cap player has had an advantage over the higher h/cap player .[dont ask where the stats are i cant remember but i have no reason to lie]as i have already posted and which it seems everyone has ignored [thats their choice by the way]that to make the game equal in terms of percentage of shots given the percentage should be 105%
  you never know someone might just take note ,i doubt it and the low h/cappers will still bleat on about how unfair life is being so good at golf .
   just because you are a cat1 or there about it dosent give you a god given rite to beat a higher h/capper.
		
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I've seen the stats before regarding difference in singles between high hc and low hc, and totally agree with the high hc receiving 100% of the difference.

If anyone knows where the stats are regarding "105% difference in better ball required to level the playing field", I'd love to read it.

It must exist somewhere if so many people are quoting it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2015)

Why shouldn't the lower handicappers have an advantage? Surely they put more into their game and should be rewarded accordingly?


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2015)

And regarding the OP's question, it won't affect what I will and won't enter next year.

I'll play in all the club competitions regardless because it's golf.
I'll still play in opens because it's a good way to play other courses.
League to Dubai excepted, I don't enter any national matchplay comps anyway so there'll be no change there.


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## Region3 (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Why shouldn't the lower handicappers have an advantage? Surely they put more into their game and should be rewarded accordingly?
		
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Because the theory is that handicap golf should be a level playing field, a fair competition between different standards of golfer.

Some people enjoy the journey of trying to get better, and their reward is a lower handicap and more control of their ball. It's supposed to be fun, so if working to improve is fun then all is well and good.

I don't think it's right to deny others a fair crack at the whip if practicing is their idea of hell and get their fun just from being on the course. If they were somehow forced to improve to have a chance of winning anything, they might just not bother or stop entering comps, and that's not good for the game.


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## Cheifi0 (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Why shouldn't the lower handicappers have an advantage? Surely they put more into their game and should be rewarded accordingly?
		
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Don't see why that should be taken into consideration.  It's about making the format as fair as possible and therefore more enjoyable for all.  You already have your reward by been able to play better golf.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2015)

Fair comment Gary but I don't agree.


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## upsidedown (Dec 20, 2015)

Wise words from Region 3 there .

As for original question , nope wont put me off one iota


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## MendieGK (Dec 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Because the theory is that handicap golf should be a level playing field, a fair competition between different standards of golfer.

Some people enjoy the journey of trying to get better, and their reward is a lower handicap and more control of their ball. It's supposed to be fun, so if working to improve is fun then all is well and good.

I don't think it's right to deny others a fair crack at the whip if practicing is their idea of hell and get their fun just from being on the course. If they were somehow forced to improve to have a chance of winning anything, they might just not bother or stop entering comps, and that's not good for the game.
		
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I'm with Gordon a little here. Golf is the only sport that seems to 'reward' mediocrity. So yes, I do think there should be some incentive to lower handicappers in these events

I don't enter match plays at our club not because of fear of playing against a higher handicap but due to the absolute ball ache it is arranging matches.

However, our current winter league (best two scores up until Xmas from a max of 12 rounds) is currently being lead with a score of 93pts off 3/4 handicap! That's 21 under par. Yes the course is shorter etc, but that's bloody stupid. I had 8 birdies last weekend on our way to 43pts (my pp off 9 basically walked round) and we were 5shots back of the best score that weekend.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Why shouldn't the lower handicappers have an advantage? Surely they put more into their game and should be rewarded accordingly?
		
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Not sure if you're looking for a bite&#128515;
Who says Low Handicappers put more in to their game, going by some forum members, there are mid-high handicappers who put as much as possible into the game and there are cat 1 golfers who just play, never had lessons etc.
What about natural ability? Or people simply reaching their level. If it was simply down to how much you put it, wouldn't everybody be Cat 1?


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## Fish (Dec 20, 2015)

Nope, won't put me off entering them all &#128526;


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2015)

I've been one of our committee doing handicaps for a number of years, hopefully fairly and consistently. The only (few) low handicappers that have complained about the handicaps of those that beat them are normally low handicappers who are unable to constantly play near to their handicap.

CONGU has been accessing actual scores from qualifiers for a number of years now and supposedly been running various models to see what are the best handicap allocations for the various comps.

Have they got it right - the jury is out at the moment but 3/4 was never the answer. I remember the same winges when it went to full in singles match play yet around here the good low handicappers are still the winners, I suspect apart from the odd upset it will be the same with BB.

The best solution were clubs are worried about this is to run different comps for different handicaps, simple.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2015)

At the end of the day, I'll play every comp I can. I always hope to do my best and win, although I accept the chances are always slim. I'll play regardless of how the handicaps are worked out. Nothing will change that


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## the smiling assassin (Dec 20, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			CONGU has been accessing actual scores from qualifiers for a number of years now and supposedly been running various models to see what are the best handicap allocations for the various comps.
		
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Yes they have. Despite that being an utterly pointless exercise. If they really wanted to arrive at the correct solution, they'd be studying scores from matches, not medals. It's a completely different format, mentality. To try and draw matchplay stats out of medal scores is unbelievably flawed.



Old Skier said:



			The best solution were clubs are worried about this is to run different comps for different handicaps, simple.
		
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Agreed, but if CONGU tried even harder maybe it wouldn't have to be like that!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2015)

the smiling assassin said:



			Yes they have. Despite that being an utterly pointless exercise. If they really wanted to arrive at the correct solution, they'd be studying scores from matches, not medals. It's a completely different format, mentality. To try and draw matchplay stats out of medal scores is unbelievably flawed.


Agreed, but if CONGU tried even harder maybe it wouldn't have to be like that!
		
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100% spot on IMO 

It's laughable that they have made matchplay and 4BBB choices based on medal play 

I asked the question and was faced with blank looks


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## richart (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Why shouldn't the lower handicappers have an advantage? Surely they put more into their game and should be rewarded accordingly?
		
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 Couple of practice swings in the net is hardly putting a lot into your game. Did you ever have your chipping lesson, and if so have you been practicing what you were taught.


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## Imurg (Dec 20, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			I'm with Gordon a little here. Golf is the only sport that seems to 'reward' mediocrity. So yes, I do think there should be some incentive to lower handicappers in these events

.
		
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The clue is that it's a handicap competition.
Any competition using handicaps is designed to make the playing field as level as possible, be that Stableford, Medal or Matchplay
No side should have an advantage.
The advantage a low handicapper has is in scratch competitions - where the absolute best golf is rewarded.
In Handicap golf the best play relative to handicap is rewarded.


I stopped playing the Matchplay comps a few years ago, not due to giving shots ( which racks me off if I have to give shots on difficult holes) but because it was always a pain in the backside organising it.


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## DRW (Dec 20, 2015)

Played in a few of these on a guest day I have played on for years from playing to very high handicap to about 10 handicap and back up to where I am now about 14.

They play 100% handicap IIRC, never got close to winning but to be honest never felt we/team have played well. Then this year me and my partner (26 plus handicap, never seen him get close to breaking 100), had a silly round, I chipped in twice, putted from 20 foot and my partner had a number of putts that dropped. We each had blow out holes but never together, we just happened to gel. Cant remember what we scored together but it was silly high, I mean silly high, embarrassing high it was.

Two low handicappers could never have beat us, even if they had had that equivalent freaky rounds
.
Anyway as a result I would say 90-100% is probably to generous/ I would think 80%-85% would be better for BB comps.

For individual comps, I think playing in games that there is only a 75% handicap is silly for high handicappers, as it is a fix for single figure handicappers to win. Played in a couple of society days that they have done that.

On my days I have two pools, one is for people who have been many times and another pool for the people who have not. I just fed up with people coming along and scoring 46-48 points and saving that they had had a good game(10-12 under their handicap, WTF!!!)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2015)

richart said:



			Couple of practice swings in the net is hardly putting a lot into your game. Did you ever have your chipping lesson, and if so have you been practicing what you were taught.

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Funny you should mention that Rich, my last 3 rounds at Broadstone I'm a combined total of 5 over par. Have you gone up to Cat 3 yet?


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## richart (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Funny you should mention that Rich, my last 3 rounds at Broadstone I'm a combined total of 5 over par. Have you gone up to Cat 3 yet?  

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 No I think I am in the same Category 2 as you.:ears: Been playing off the reds with Louise ?


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## Oxfordcomma (Dec 20, 2015)

So is there anyone whose club 4bbb comps are being won regularly by higher handicappers? Or have some of you just lost a KO round to someone you're giving shots to? 

I had a quick look at my club - the same father & son cat1/cat2 pairing has won the knockout the last two years. I'm guessing they give away a lot of shots in most rounds, but still seem able to be consistent.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2015)

The poacher said:



			Brian the change has been made because the statistics show that the lower h/cap player has had an advantage over the higher h/cap player .[dont ask where the stats are i cant remember but i have no reason to lie]as i have already posted and which it seems everyone has ignored [thats their choice by the way]that to make the game equal in terms of percentage of shots given the percentage should be 105%
  you never know someone might just take note ,i doubt it and the low h/cappers will still bleat on about how unfair life is being so good at golf .
   just because you are a cat1 or there about it dosent give you a god given rite to beat a higher h/capper.
		
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I've never bleated about it being unfair - look back at my other posts, quite the opposite in fact. Nor do I think I have a God given right to win.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2015)

Oxfordcomma said:



			So is there anyone whose club 4bbb comps are being won regularly by higher handicappers? Or have some of you just lost a KO round to someone you're giving shots to? 

I had a quick look at my club - the same father & son cat1/cat2 pairing has won the knockout the last two years. I'm guessing they give away a lot of shots in most rounds, but still seem able to be consistent.
		
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I've not played in the 4BBB knockout for quite some time but played in an open foursomes knockout competition earlier this year. We shot under par and lost to 2 guys with a combined handicap of 27.


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## Oxfordcomma (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I've not played in the 4BBB knockout for quite some time but played in an open foursomes knockout competition earlier this year. We shot under par and lost to 2 guys with a combined handicap of 27.
		
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Isn't that sort of the point of a KO comp though? In a league format, you would always expect the lower handicaps to be winning. In a KO though everyone can have their day, I see it as an FA Cup 3rd round type of thing. You know that it's going to be a low pairing that wins the overall comp (as they have at my club) but there will also be some upsets along the way.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2015)

Oxfordcomma said:



			Isn't that sort of the point of a KO comp though? In a league format, you would always expect the lower handicaps to be winning. In a KO though everyone can have their day, I see it as an FA Cup 3rd round type of thing. You know that it's going to be a low pairing that wins the overall comp (as they have at my club) but there will also be some upsets along the way.
		
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I don't see it that way. If a low handicapper has a good day he will shoot 1 or 2 under handicap, if a high player has a good day he will shoot 5 or 6 under his handicap. When I look at the competition results at my club, the scores in the 40+ points are always mid to high handicappers.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2015)

the smiling assassin said:



			Yes they have. Despite that being an utterly pointless exercise. If they really wanted to arrive at the correct solution, they'd be studying scores from matches, not medals. It's a completely different format, mentality. To try and draw matchplay stats out of medal scores is unbelievably flawed.


Agreed, but if CONGU tried even harder maybe it wouldn't have to be like that!
		
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Agree with the mentality angle, when I stand on the first tee in match play and the opposition say "I have to give how many shots" I fancy my chances.

As to your second point, CONGU cannot win as it appears that the odd low handicapper on here thinks that anyone with a high handicap that has the cheek to beat them is a bandit, not that they weren't up to it on that occasion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't see it that way. If a low handicapper has a good day he will shoot 1 or 2 under handicap, if a high player has a good day he will shoot 5 or 6 under his handicap. When I look at the competition results at my club, the scores in the 40+ points are always mid to high handicappers.
		
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The 10-18 bracket is were 90% of our winners come from in Singles, 
In the 4BBB comps it's quite random and more comps have been won by a mix of a cat 1 and a.n. other cat, rather than 2 from the same Cat


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## Oxfordcomma (Dec 20, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't see it that way. If a low handicapper has a good day he will shoot 1 or 2 under handicap, if a high player has a good day he will shoot 5 or 6 under his handicap. When I look at the competition results at my club, *the scores in the 40+ points are always mid to high handicappers*.
		
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That's strokeplay though. When I look at the strokeplay comp results at my club, Cat 1 players win far more of them than you would expect, given the distribution of handicaps. 

On matchplay, as others have said we'll need to agree to differ. No individual low handicapper has a right to win any particular match. However, a low handicapper (or pair of) does win the vast majority of club matchplay comps. Which is where this change is coming from, the stats apparently suggest that you low boys currently have an advantage. Even though so many of you like to complain about giving shots!


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			I've never bleated about it being unfair - look back at my other posts, quite the opposite in fact. Nor do I think I have a God given right to win.
		
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you are quite right mate and the last  of my post was not aimed at you specifically but it seems cat 1 in general .

   my own results from singles ko comps are not tilted in any way towards high or low h/cappers as to weather i win or lose ,i play off 14 and can be, on my day rubbish but then it can go well and i can easily shoot 6 under h/cap .
    i must say that when i play single figure players my game raises and i always seem to play better against them.
      conversely when i play 20 plus players my game seems to be dragged down to their level


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## Leftie (Dec 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			The 10-18 bracket is were 90% of our winners come from in Singles,
		
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Possibly because the vast majority of entrants to the comp are 10-18 H/cap?????


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## richart (Dec 20, 2015)

It will not put me off, as the maths is going to be much easier.:thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2015)

Leftie said:



			Possibly because the vast majority of entrants to the comp are 10-18 H/cap?????
		
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Not 90% though&#128515;


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## Smiffy (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's 4BBB that means a number of time the oppo will have two chances of getting a par
Can't compete against that.
		
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But stick two 5 handicappers together on the shorter/easier holes and they have two chances of making birdie!!
Believe it or not, that is the whole idea of matchplay Phil.... 

If Richart and I (11/12 handicaps) played you and Gary/Gordon I would put money on your pairing having more clear cut birdie chances than ours.
Whether you take them or not is down to you. We don't have any influence in that.
But I'd put money on it.


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I don't see it that way. If a low handicapper has a good day he will shoot 1 or 2 under handicap, if a high player has a good day he will shoot 5 or 6 under his handicap. When I look at the competition results at my club, the scores in the 40+ points are always mid to high handicappers.
		
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Is that really a fair comparison though

A cat 1 shooting 1 or 2 under is a good day (maybe even a very good day) but a cat 4 doing it would be an exceptional day surely?

Also wont cat1 players be shooting handicap or better 1 in every 3-4 rounds while cat 4 guys are nothing like that consistent with perhaps only 1in10 

Sure if you meet them on their exceptional day it's bound to stick in the craw a bit for the low guy because 8/10 times you'll wup the high guy senseless but when it does come along the low guy just has to suck it up or if they can't entertain the possibility of the odd loss here and there then refrain from the handicap format of golf comps




On a separate note it does read sometimes like wupping the high guy the vast majority of times isn't enough for some people and that a low handicap status somehow entitles them to a win simply because they are the better player (again don't enter handicap comps if you feel this way) We enter 'handicap competitions' where the winner is not determined on actual ability, sounds like a few have forgotten this


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## Smiffy (Dec 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			Wont cat1 players be shooting handicap or better 1 in every 3-4 rounds
		
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Looking at the scores LP lobs in week in week out, I think it is more regular than that


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			Is that really a fair comparison though

A cat 1 shooting 1 or 2 under is a good day (maybe even a very good day) but a cat 4 doing it would be an exceptional day surely?

Also wont cat1 players be shooting handicap or better 1 in every 3-4 rounds while cat 4 guys are nothing like that consistent with perhaps only 1in10 

Sure if you meet them on their exceptional day it's bound to stick in the craw a bit for the low guy because 8/10 times you'll wup the high guy senseless but when it does come along the low guy just has to suck it up or if they can't entertain the possibility of the odd loss here and there then refrain from the handicap format of golf comps




On a separate note it does read sometimes like wupping the high guy the vast majority of times isn't enough for some people and that a low handicap status somehow entitles them to a win simply because they are the better player (again don't enter handicap comps if you feel this way) We enter 'handicap competitions' where the winner is not determined on actual ability, sounds like a few have forgotten this
		
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Great post


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			Is that really a fair comparison though

A cat 1 shooting 1 or 2 under is a good day (maybe even a very good day) but a cat 4 doing it would be an exceptional day surely?

*Also wont cat1 players be shooting handicap or better 1 in every 3-4 rounds while cat 4 guys are nothing like that consistent with perhaps only 1in10 
*
Sure if you meet them on their exceptional day it's bound to stick in the craw a bit for the low guy because 8/10 times you'll wup the high guy senseless but when it does come along the low guy just has to suck it up or if they can't entertain the possibility of the odd loss here and there then refrain from the handicap format of golf comps




On a separate note it does read sometimes like wupping the high guy the vast majority of times isn't enough for some people and that a low handicap status somehow entitles them to a win simply because they are the better player (again don't enter handicap comps if you feel this way) We enter 'handicap competitions' where the winner is not determined on actual ability, sounds like a few have forgotten this
		
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Researched figures or a bit of guesswork?  Just asking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2015)

No.  In my head it makes no difference to me if I have to give a 28 handicapper 14 shots or 16 shots - even in a 4BBB match.  I know that most of the time I can, at worst, cancel him out.  I just have to accept that occasionally the high handicapper will have a blinder and in these situations the 2 shots extra he has on me will be irrelevant - I'd get stuffed whatever,  But most of the time that doesn't happen.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

Good to see the usual positions haven't changed  - the change in handicap allowance merely being a good excuse to air them again!

Here's a few of my observations over the last 35 years of playing and organising matchplay events, and generally being the high handicapper in league and club events but the low one in senior matches.

Real golfers aren't interested in playing 4BBB - they may enter in the winter to win the thing but not just to take part. They have either busy golfing diaries with county events, ranking events and other commitments or they are juggling family, business and golf like the rest of us and have to prioritise somewhere.

You will generally see a higher proportion of improving golfers entering these events as they feel they do have a better chance of winning - of setting the hassle of arranging and playing. So there's always a valid element of the improving handicap players versus the established (stable) cat 1s . However this is more prevalent in singles.

If there is a significantly lower handicap player in a senior game they expect to win; if they lose its always because of the handicapping system, the bandits, etc and everyone will hear about it in the bar afterwards. Strangely the higher handicap players are more realistic and can even be heard to suggest that their opponents played well, or that they didn't have a good day.

The facts, or statistical evidence, is there for anyone to see in the calculation routines for handicapping. On top of this the international associations have also been gathering empirical data to check that this has been borne out in practice. NZ  were the first to go to 100% and gathered data from clubs for a number of years to do this - sharing it with others. Most are now at 100% (when we are only moving to 90...the maths difference is so small it's irrelevant but the psychological impact is accepted as significant).

If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago! Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.

Finally, even at 100% the lower handicap player still has the reward for excellence built into the system on his side - which is why you would have to go to 105% to make it a truly fair fight! Nobody is suggesting this, so it seems that it is accepted that the lower guy has earned an edge; he just hasn't eared the right that many here (and elsewhere of course) seem to believe in.

Handicap golf is a game, anyone wishing to take it further is able to play in non handicap events as they see fit.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Good to see the usual positions haven't changed  - the change in handicap allowance merely being a good excuse to air them again!

Here's a few of my observations over the last 35 years of playing and organising matchplay events, and generally being the high handicapper in league and club events but the low one in senior matches.

Real golfers aren't interested in playing 4BBB - they may enter in the winter to win the thing but not just to take part. They have either busy golfing diaries with county events, ranking events and other commitments or they are juggling family, business and golf like the rest of us and have to prioritise somewhere.

You will generally see a higher proportion of improving golfers entering these events as they feel they do have a better chance of winning - of setting the hassle of arranging and playing. So there's always a valid element of the improving handicap players versus the established (stable) cat 1s . However this is more prevalent in singles.

If there is a significantly lower handicap player in a senior game they expect to win; if they lose its always because of the handicapping system, the bandits, etc and everyone will hear about it in the bar afterwards. Strangely the higher handicap players are more realistic and can even be heard to suggest that their opponents played well, or that they didn't have a good day.

The facts, or statistical evidence, is there for anyone to see in the calculation routines for handicapping. On top of this the international associations have also been gathering empirical data to check that this has been borne out in practice. NZ  were the first to go to 100% and gathered data from clubs for a number of years to do this - sharing it with others. Most are now at 100% (when we are only moving to 90...the maths difference is so small it's irrelevant but the psychological impact is accepted as significant).

*If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago!* Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.

Finally, even at 100% the lower handicap player still has the reward for excellence built into the system on his side - which is why you would have to go to 105% to make it a truly fair fight! Nobody is suggesting this, so it seems that it is accepted that the lower guy has earned an edge; he just hasn't eared the right that many here (and elsewhere of course) seem to believe in.

Handicap golf is a game, anyone wishing to take it further is able to play in non handicap events as they see fit.
		
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Interesting point Duncan, if that is true how are these improving players meant to get their handicaps down? No wonder they win so many matches and get accused of being bandits


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Researched figures or a bit of guesswork?  Just asking.
		
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Combo of personal experiences of the scoring I see and a bit of guesstimates too

A high handicapper isn't going to be a high handicapper if he's bettering handicap every 4th round


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Interesting point Duncan, if that is true how are these improving players meant to get their handicaps down? No wonder they win so many matches and get accused of being bandits  

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It's noticeable that at many clubs the lower handicap players favour playing in medal events and the higher ones favour stableford - obviously everywhere has a hardcore that play in anything!
At some clubs it's quite extreme - unsurprisingly the more challenging overall the course is the greater this tends to be. Challenging in this context is represented by the ease with which significant scores can be accrued on holes!

I suspect, but don't have any statistical support for the view, that the higher the proportion of medal play at a club the more they will have matchplay bandits! It's tough to keep giving it everything you have when starting 9, 9 but simply blobbing the first couple of holes doesn't have quite the same mental impact!


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago! Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.
		
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I dont mind whether i play Stablefords or Medals, but isn't golf supposed to be about playing 18 holes in the minimum amount of shots possible? 

If so, then all comps should be medals. If a high handicapper is truly focused on improving their handicap then they wont care about winning comps off 24 in a stableford but would rather finish top 10 in a medal and get cut via the help of stableford adjustments.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2015)

If h/c didn't exist in competition play then high h/c golfers would not play, why pay into a prize fund that they can never hope to win. I would just be paying out money to better golfers. I gave up on medal play some time ago, I choke everytime. I'm not bothered about missing those comps but I suspect clubs would rather I and others like me did play as a full competition is better than purely 20 blokes playing on a Saturday and the rest of the club playing social golf. 

Stableford and 4BBB are chance for high h/c to have a pop and perhaps have a small chance of glory. 9 times out of 10 it wont happen, the evidence seems to be out there as people are posting, but we enter those comps for the chance of that one. If low h/c don't want that then fine. Set the h/c at 50% and go and enjoy your comp. The list will be emptier, the prize pot lower but hey, a proper golfer will win.

There are plenty of comps in the year for good golfers to win and show their skill. High h/c don't moan about those, we accept it is part of sport and golf. Comps like 4bbb are a chance for us to join in with everyone else and hope that our game comes off on that particular day.

Great post by Duncan - He explained it more eloquently than I have but I wanted to do more than just a thumbs up emoji.


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			It's tough to keep giving it everything you have when starting 9, 9 but simply blobbing the first couple of holes doesn't have quite the same mental impact!
		
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Thats just having a poor mental approach then and not understanding the situation. 

In a recent comp, i started with an 8 (all of my shots gone),  but i said to myself - that's a double (for handicap purposes), so i pushed on and shot a good round.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If h/c didn't exist in competition play then high h/c golfers would not play, why pay into a prize fund that they can never hope to win. I would just be paying out money to better golfers. I gave up on medal play some time ago, I choke everytime. I'm not bothered about missing those comps but I suspect clubs would rather I and others like me did play as a full competition is better than purely 20 blokes playing on a Saturday and the rest of the club playing social golf. 

Stableford and 4BBB are chance for high h/c to have a pop and perhaps have a small chance of glory. 9 times out of 10 it wont happen, the evidence seems to be out there as people are posting, but we enter those comps for the chance of that one. If low h/c don't want that then fine. Set the h/c at 50% and go and enjoy your comp. The list will be emptier, the prize pot lower but hey, a proper golfer will win.

There are plenty of comps in the year for good golfers to win and show their skill. High h/c don't moan about those, we accept it is part of sport and golf. Comps like 4bbb are a chance for us to join in with everyone else and hope that our game comes off on that particular day.

Great post by Duncan - He explained it more eloquently than I have but I wanted to do more than just a thumbs up emoji.
		
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Bearing in mind that all handicap adjustments are based on stableford scoring adjustment, what you are saying is that you only play competitions to win and not get a cut??


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2015)

No. The only comps I have ever won have been Texas Scrambles so my expectations are not to win in singles events. I actually play to get cuts, not to win, but I bomb on strokeplay so leave that alone. I play Stablefords as that is not as tense. Team events are a pressure off situation so that helps the h/c more as it is often tension that does for us.

However a little like having to pay into the longest drive competition on a society day when your longest is going to be less than some blokes hit a rescue it is entirely pointless paying into a pot if you are never going to win. We pay enough in fees without throwing an extra amount away. There has to be a chance of winning to encourage people to play in comps otherwise you just say no thanks, I'll give that comp a miss and play socially this week. That can't be good for a club or the comp. You want to encourage people to join in, not put up barriers so that you think it is not worth it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No. The only comps I have ever won have been Texas Scrambles so my expectations are not to win in singles events. I actually play to get cuts, not to win, but I bomb on strokeplay so leave that alone. I play Stablefords as that is not as tense.
		
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You miss my point. You can make an almighty hash of a hole in a medal and NR on it but it doesn't matter as it will count as a nett double bogey (or blob in stableford terms) so you can still get cut. So why not enter medals as well if you want to get cut?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2015)

It is psychological. You go chasing holes in strokeplay. In Stableford it is easy to wipe off a hole and think you can catch it up over a few holes. Finish a strokeplay with a score in the high 90's and it is crushing. After 9 holes in stableford you may have taken the same number of shots as the strokeplay comp at the same stage but your point score may be better and you somehow feel you can pull back on the back nine. Weak I know, all up top.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Good to see the usual positions haven't changed  - the change in handicap allowance merely being a good excuse to air them again!

Here's a few of my observations over the last 35 years of playing and organising matchplay events, and generally being the high handicapper in league and club events but the low one in senior matches.

*Real golfers aren't interested in playing 4BBB *- they may enter in the winter to win the thing but not just to take part. They have either busy golfing diaries with county events, ranking events and other commitments or they are juggling family, business and golf like the rest of us and have to prioritise somewhere.

You will generally see a higher proportion of improving golfers entering these events as they feel they do have a better chance of winning - of setting the hassle of arranging and playing. So there's always a valid element of the improving handicap players versus the established (stable) cat 1s . However this is more prevalent in singles.

If there is a significantly lower handicap player in a senior game they expect to win; if they lose its always because of the handicapping system, the bandits, etc and everyone will hear about it in the bar afterwards. Strangely the higher handicap players are more realistic and can even be heard to suggest that their opponents played well, or that they didn't have a good day.

The facts, or statistical evidence, is there for anyone to see in the calculation routines for handicapping. On top of this the international associations have also been gathering empirical data to check that this has been borne out in practice. NZ  were the first to go to 100% and gathered data from clubs for a number of years to do this - sharing it with others. Most are now at 100% (when we are only moving to 90...the maths difference is so small it's irrelevant but the psychological impact is accepted as significant).

If you really want to see inequity in the competition system just look at medals - most cat 3s & 4s stopped playing in those a long time ago! Do they bleat about the inequity - strangely nothing like the cat 1st who lose at matchplay.

Finally, even at 100% the lower handicap player still has the reward for excellence built into the system on his side - which is why you would have to go to 105% to make it a truly fair fight! Nobody is suggesting this, so it seems that it is accepted that the lower guy has earned an edge; he just hasn't eared the right that many here (and elsewhere of course) seem to believe in.

Handicap golf is a game, anyone wishing to take it further is able to play in non handicap events as they see fit.
		
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Unfair generalisation Duncan.  I hope that I am a *real* golfer - and although individual strokeplay and matchplay, and foursomes, are my preference - I do enjoy the social aspect of 4BBB.  Further in a match I played on Saturday I spent a fair bit of time during the round advising the 28 handicapper of the pair we were playing who had only recently joined on the rules and quirks of rules and how they apply round our track.  And he expressed his appreciation that I was happy to spend the time doing that.

Rest of your post I can agree with


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			Thats just having a poor mental approach then and not understanding the situation. 

In a recent comp, i started with an 8 (all of my shots gone),  but i said to myself - that's a double (for handicap purposes), so i pushed on and shot a good round.
		
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But you're coming from a position of strength, to play off the handicap you do I would imagine your very steady and more than capable of getting those shots back.
I'm off 14 and will play every Saturday or Sunday in a comp regardless of format, aim is to improve and get cut, if I have a bad start I will obviously try and get it back, but mentally for me it's a struggle as I don't have the consistencey someone as good as yourself has.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfair generalisation Duncan.  I hope that I am a *real* golfer - and although individual strokeplay and matchplay, and foursomes, are my preference - I do enjoy the social aspect of 4BBB.  Further in a match I played on Saturday I spent a fair bit of time during the round advising the 28 handicapper of the pair we were playing who had only recently joined on the rules and quirks of rules and how they apply round our track.  And he expressed his appreciation that I was happy to spend the time doing that.

Rest of your post I can agree with
		
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Real golfers in this context are those with low handicaps who don't consider any handicap events important. 

They probably also consider themselves naked without at least one DMD, and wouldn't even dream of playing without one.

The label is theirs, not mine.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Real golfers in this context are those with low handicaps who don't consider any handicap events important. 

They probably also consider themselves naked without at least one DMD, and wouldn't even dream of playing without one.

The label is theirs, not mine.
		
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I have no idea who this fictional golfer is


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## Scott W (Dec 21, 2015)

I really struggle to understand the "bandit" concept, don't get me wrong I know they exist and I myself have been called one on occasion!

I play off 19, since joining the club over 5 years ago my handicap has bounced between 20 (when I started) and 18.5 at it lowest. I play around 6-8 qualifiers a year (would like to play more but hard to play on a Sunday when most comps occur due to family commitments - kids footy)

I have the ability to par every hole on my course, have birdied many of them but cant seem to put an 18 hole card together that reflects my sporadic ability. 

Classic example on Sunday, playing the 18th in 4BBB I hit a fantastic drive straight down the middle about 280 (on a wet fairway) leaving 100 to the pin (gap wedge) which I hit to 10 feet and 2 putted for par and a 2 up win. In the bar afterwards one of our opponents who is off 8 said "a 19 handicap shouldn't have 100 yards to flag from middle of fairway on 18!"

I am desperate to get my h'cap down - I genuinely believe I have the ability to be 14-16 at least and am regularly told by PP's in medal round "you hit it much better than a 19 handicap" .....as I sign for another net 73 and buffer grrrr!


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## drewster (Dec 21, 2015)

In answer to the original question it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Most 4BBB matches eventually come down to a putting contest and i can't see that changing too much with the new allowances. One quesiton i do ask is - have clubs taken on the new allowance format for Winter League comps that span 2015/16 ? We are still on 3/4 for this Winter's comp and i wondered if others are the same .


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But you're coming from a position of strength, to play off the handicap you do I would imagine your very steady and more than capable of getting those shots back.
I'm off 14 and will play every Saturday or Sunday in a comp regardless of format, aim is to improve and get cut, if I have a bad start I will obviously try and get it back, but mentally for me it's a struggle as I don't have the consistencey someone as good as yourself has.
		
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Sounds to me like you have the right attitude though - trying to get cut whether or not it's a medal or  Stableford. You against the course, not caring what other people do!


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			Thats just having a poor mental approach then and not understanding the situation. 

In a recent comp, i started with an 8 (all of my shots gone),  but i said to myself - that's a double (for handicap purposes), so i pushed on and shot a good round.
		
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Absolutely, but as indicated by Paul in his response this is generally a trait of the higher handicapper.

As we all know by far the biggest success factor at golf overall is a strong mental ability!


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

Slightly off topic, but from my experience of higher handicappers comments on a number of threads, they seem to really fear competitions (even though they are playing with there usual partners).

I don't understand it, no one else cares how you get on, whether you shoot 6under your handicap or 50over.
 Golf is an individual sport, you against the course. Go out there and enjoy it no matter what the situation, event or competition and the handicap and comp win (if that's a motivation) will take care of themselves


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

drewster said:



			In answer to the original question it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Most 4BBB matches eventually come down to a putting contest and i can't see that changing too much with the new allowances. One quesiton i do ask is - have clubs taken on the new allowance format for Winter League comps that span 2015/16 ? We are still on 3/4 for this Winter's comp and i wondered if others are the same .
		
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We made the decision to continue the starting allowance through to the end of the winter comps.

There are arguments both ways - the important thing is for a committee to publish their decision before it becomes an issue for any particular pair.

We made ours considering the possibility of high handicap pairs holding off playing a round until the new year to benefit 
; obviously no-one would actually do that....but it seemed prudent to protect them from possible accusations!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			Slightly off topic, but from my experience of higher handicappers comments on a number of threads, they seem to really fear competitions (even though they are playing with there usual partners).

I don't understand it, no one else cares how you get on, whether you shoot 6under your handicap or 50over.
 Golf is an individual sport, you against the course. Go out there and enjoy it no matter what the situation, event or competition and the handicap and comp win (if that's a motivation) will take care of themselves
		
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Also on a different topic, my club have a start sheet for the festive break. Just had a look, there is a 4 ball group with a 13hcp in it. Total combined handicap for the entire group is 9


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

Just seen that. Jamie must be back from USA then. Serious golfers


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## duncan mackie (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			Slightly off topic, but from my experience of higher handicappers comments on a number of threads, they seem to really fear competitions (even though they are playing with there usual partners).

I don't understand it, no one else cares how you get on, whether you shoot 6under your handicap or 50over.
 Golf is an individual sport, you against the course. Go out there and enjoy it no matter what the situation, event or competition and the handicap and comp win (if that's a motivation) will take care of themselves
		
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I took most of the  comments I've seen to be from new to competition, or even a new club, golf rather than being associated with experienced high handicappers.

As already observed I do see them opting out of medal events (when they play all the stablefords).

On this topic I also see a number of low handicap players be very selective about the conditions they play Q events in - both those trying to meet aspirational (and significant to entry etc ) handicaps and those wishing to slow down a slide to the new reality of their diminished capabilities.

Obviously neither if these applies to anyone who posts on here...but they exist.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

I've never played with any of those guys, must watch out for them on the competition start sheets.


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## delc (Dec 21, 2015)

drewster said:



			In answer to the original question it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Most 4BBB matches eventually come down to a putting contest and i can't see that changing too much with the new allowances. One quesiton i do ask is - have clubs taken on the new allowance format for Winter League comps that span 2015/16 ? We are still on 3/4 for this Winter's comp and i wondered if others are the same .
		
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Our Winter 4BBB knockout Matchplay comps, which started in November 2015, have the 90% handicap allowance. Despite my 18 handicap partner and myself (12) getting extra shots, we still lost in the first round 3&2 against lower handicap opposition!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

Don't think I have ever noticed either Cat 3 or 4 avoiding medals 

Or Low HC avoiding or being selective about the conditions ?!

We have the same people playing the competitions regardless of the format


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## MendieGK (Dec 21, 2015)

drive4show said:



			I've never played with any of those guys, must watch out for them on the competition start sheets.
		
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Darren works in the shop. Great lad one of my really good friends.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

Yeah I know Darren, very nice quiet unassuming lad  :thup:


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## drewster (Dec 21, 2015)

delc said:



			Our Winter 4BBB knockout Matchplay comps, which started in November 2015, have the 90% handicap allowance. Despite my 18 handicap partner and myself (12) getting extra shots, we still lost in the first round 3&2 against lower handicap opposition!  

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And i'll bet that they putted better on the day !!!!


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## Stuey01 (Dec 21, 2015)

drewster said:



			One quesiton i do ask is - have clubs taken on the new allowance format for Winter League comps that span 2015/16 ? We are still on 3/4 for this Winter's comp and i wondered if others are the same .
		
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My club has the winter league 4bbb on 90% for this winter.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			I don't understand it, no one else cares how you get on, whether you shoot 6under your handicap or 50over.
 Golf is an individual sport, you against the course. Go out there and enjoy it no matter what the situation, event or competition and the handicap and comp win (if that's a motivation) will take care of themselves
		
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After you have played a strokeplay competition, you are stood in the bar afterwards. A friend walks in, what do you ask? "What was your score?" It is the question everyone asks. You mumble 100+ with your head hanging down in shame. Your friend and their playing partners look down awkwardly. No fun. 

After you play a Stableford comp you have the same scenario. 30 points is the reply this time, same number of shots. No shame in that, no embarrassing looks. Plenty of others in the bar have that score whether off 2 or 28. This is why h/c prefer non strokeplay comps.

Golfers get asked two questions, what is your handicap or what was your score today. Over and over again.

People do care but more than that you have your own self respect.


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## delc (Dec 21, 2015)

drewster said:



			And i'll bet that they putted better on the day !!!!
		
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No, not really! The main difference was that the lowest handicap opponent played much steadier tee to green golf in difficult windy conditions, and even when he didn't, his mid handicap partner seemed to take over. They dove-tailed together better than we did. We tended to play well or badly on the same holes as each other!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 21, 2015)

MendieGK said:



			Sounds to me like you have the right attitude though - trying to get cut whether or not it's a medal or  Stableford. You against the course, not caring what other people do!
		
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I am, the down side is that in 13 qualifiers, I've had 2 cuts, .6 and .3, 2 buffers and 9 .1's, maybe being selective I'd be off 13 or 12.whatever, playing every comp and being inconsistent does your head in&#128515;


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 21, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			After you have played a strokeplay competition, you are stood in the bar afterwards. A friend walks in, what do you ask? "What was your score?" It is the question everyone asks. You mumble 100+ with your head hanging down in shame. Your friend and their playing partners look down awkwardly. No fun. 

After you play a Stableford comp you have the same scenario. 30 points is the reply this time, same number of shots. No shame in that, no embarrassing looks. Plenty of others in the bar have that score whether off 2 or 28. This is why h/c prefer non strokeplay comps.

Golfers get asked two questions, what is your handicap or what was your score today. Over and over again.

People do care but more than that you have your own self respect.
		
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Blimey, it's only a game not life and death    So you might get a bit of a ribbing but that 100+ could still potentially get you a cut  :thup:


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2015)

Ha ha. You are quite right but it does get a bit deflating after a while and I play to enjoy myself. Avoiding strokeplay is a defence mechanism.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Real golfers in this context are those with low handicaps who don't consider any handicap events important. 

They probably also consider themselves naked without at least one DMD, and wouldn't even dream of playing without one.

The label is theirs, not mine.
		
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Well I have to say that they are a rather pretentious and conceited bunch if they think that they alone amongst us are 'real' golfers.  Having the time, money and a bit of aptitude to get to single figures does not make you any more a 'real' golfer than the rest of us.  But hey ho - if that's what they think...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I have to say that they are a rather pretentious and conceited bunch if they think that they alone amongst us are 'real' golfers.  Having the time, money and a bit of aptitude to get to single figures does not make you any more a 'real' golfer than the rest of us.  But hey ho - if that's what they think...
		
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I don't recall any low HC golfer on here suggest they are "real golfers"  and them alone


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't recall any low HC golfer on here suggest they are "real golfers"  and them alone
		
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I agree - but Duncan suggests that some, or maybe many, low handicappers view themselves that way.  Can't say I've come across too many of that view myself - but maybe it's just a view they share between themselves that they don't broadcast to us mere zombies (the unreal)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - but Duncan suggests that some, or maybe many, low handicappers view themselves that way.  Can't say I've come across too many of that view myself - but maybe it's just a view they share between themselves that they don't broadcast to us mere zombies (the unreal)
		
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I certainly don't think that way 

I'm no more a real golfer as the 28 HC player and never come across the view or many of the assumptions in Duncan's post


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## Region3 (Dec 21, 2015)

Not suggesting anyone in particular because there are far more who don't than do, but I sometimes get the impression that ones that look down on others as not being proper golfers has nothing to do with handicap, but more to do with using long irons, carrying their bag, playing in the cold in summer clothes, never had a lesson, and other such things.


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## huds1475 (Dec 21, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Not suggesting anyone in particular because there are far more who don't than do, but I sometimes get the impression that ones that look down on others as not being proper golfers has nothing to do with handicap, but more to do with using long irons, carrying their bag, playing in the cold in summer clothes, never had a lesson, and other such things.
		
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You forgot wearing loud trousers and not cleaning your balls!!


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## 3565 (Dec 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't recall any low HC golfer on here suggest they are "real golfers"  and them alone
		
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I agree, and I think it would be pretty arrogant for a low hc player to even think that and cos of our ability makes us better then the rest, or that we use 1,2,3 irons so we must be better........


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## Roops (Dec 22, 2015)

Back to the original question.....I have already started to consider not bothering to play in 4BBB comps. Two reasons really, the agg of arranging them and the unrealistic handicap system. I have always felt that the current system just doesn't sample players scores often enough. I would like to see every round count. 

Classic example this weekend, we played in a 4BBB comp. One of our playing partners is desperate to get cut, he putted out every ball and we signed his card but it could not be accepted as we hadn't announced it before starting. I could understand that if he's trying to add shots to his handicap then fair enough, but to get a cut, makes no sense. 

Unrealistic handicaps are the problem and just adding a few more shots to those who get them already is not going to improve the situation.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 22, 2015)

Roops said:



			Back to the original question.....I have already started to consider not bothering to play in 4BBB comps. Two reasons really, the agg of arranging them and the unrealistic handicap system. I have always felt that the current system just doesn't sample players scores often enough. I would like to see every round count. 

Classic example this weekend, we played in a 4BBB comp. One of our playing partners is desperate to get cut, he putted out every ball and we signed his card but it could not be accepted as we hadn't announced it before starting. I could understand that if he's trying to add shots to his handicap then fair enough, but to get a cut, makes no sense. 

Unrealistic handicaps are the problem and just adding a few more shots to those who get them already is not going to improve the situation.
		
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Don't blame the system - just sign (or get him to sign) the supplemental book before going out; it's not difficult.


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## ger147 (Dec 22, 2015)

drive4show said:



			You miss my point. You can make an almighty hash of a hole in a medal and NR on it but it doesn't matter as it will count as a nett double bogey (or blob in stableford terms) so you can still get cut. So why not enter medals as well if you want to get cut?
		
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That's something that I never understand.  In Scotland, almost all comps are Medal play, and obviously one blob or horror score means your actual score is wrecked, but your handicap is not.  Assuming you're getting a shot on most holes, the worst score you can have which counts towards your handicap is a treble bogey and you move on.

Bearing in mind you're playing against the course with your handicap on the line, I don't understand why people feel under more pressure when it's medal play as opposed to stableford as the effect on your handicap is identical.


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 22, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Bearing in mind you're playing against the course with your handicap on the line, I don't understand why people feel under more pressure when it's medal play as opposed to stableford as the effect on your handicap is identical.
		
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to me a card in your hand dosent worry me in the slightest ,but a mate of mine who i won our club pairs ko comp in 2014 gets so uptight with a card in his hand he totally gets it wrong and cant hit a shot to save his life.


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## ger147 (Dec 22, 2015)

The poacher said:



			to me a card in your hand dosent worry me in the slightest ,but a mate of mine who i won our club pairs ko comp in 2014 gets so uptight with a card in his hand he totally gets it wrong and cant hit a shot to save his life.
		
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Is that the same for Stabledord as well as Medal play? I understand, for reasons best known to themselves, that some folks really struggle to play in comps i.e. with a card in your hand, but I start to get confused when some folks say they can play in Stablefords but not Medals.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 22, 2015)

Roops said:



			Back to the original question.....I have already started to consider not bothering to play in 4BBB comps. Two reasons really, the agg of arranging them and the unrealistic handicap system. I have always felt that the current system just doesn't sample players scores often enough. I would like to see every round count. 

Classic example this weekend, we played in a 4BBB comp. One of our playing partners is desperate to get cut, he putted out every ball and we signed his card but it could not be accepted as we hadn't announced it before starting. I could understand that if he's trying to add shots to his handicap then fair enough, but to get a cut, makes no sense. 

Unrealistic handicaps are the problem and just adding a few more shots to those who get them already is not going to improve the situation.
		
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Your pp wasted his time, I tried to do as he did back in April and was told I couldn't use a card from this format;

CONGU rule shown below. One reason why is that your partner can give you advice such as the line of putt.
* 
* 17.2 The following returns are not acceptable as 
* Qualifying Scores:
* (a) Scores returned in any better ball four-ball competition.&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;

Nothing to do with announcing it or not before you start.


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 22, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Is that the same for Stabledord as well as Medal play? I understand, for reasons best known to themselves, that some folks really struggle to play in comps i.e. with a card in your hand, but I start to get confused when some folks say they can play in Stablefords but not Medals.
		
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pretty much Gerry, he just folds like a cheap suit.
  but when we play matchplay of any sort he plays well .i think its because he has someone to cover for his mistakes.plus i think he is a bit on the shy side as his swing isnt in the louis oosthuizen class ,more a furyk type chop at the ball.as our comps are all drawn affairs and not block booking with your mates he ends up playing with people he hardly knows and the jitters start on the first tee.
   its a shame as he can play to a good standard when he plays a bounce game with us .


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 22, 2015)

Why is it high hcp's are always considered the bandits? I know quite a few 8 to 12 hcper's who should all be about 4 shots lower, they just "manage" their rounds...


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## woody69 (Dec 22, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why is it high hcp's are always considered the bandits? I know quite a few 8 to 12 hcper's who should all be about 4 shots lower, they just "manage" their rounds...
		
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Probably all about perception and the swing in difference. A 20+ handicapper who posts a round of 10 or so below their handicap is seen as the bandit. A 10 who posts a round of 5 below just had a fantastic round.


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## delc (Dec 22, 2015)

Low handicappers tend to have handicaps that are closer to their average scores than high handicappers, because of the way the CONGU system works. Therefore low handicap players still have a slight advantage in matches, even with full handicap difference. I assume that 90% allowance in 4BBB is just working in the same way to even things up a bit.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 22, 2015)

woody69 said:



			Probably all about perception and the swing in difference. A 20+ handicapper who posts a round of 10 or so below their handicap is seen as the bandit. A 10 who posts a round of 5 below just had a fantastic round.
		
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 .
Not perception when I know of a few golfers who are known to "manage" their scores if they are playing too well so cuts don't occur and their hcp stays very comfortable for them.
Then when there's a board comp, or soemthing of worth they shoot 4 to 6 shots under net par.


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## delc (Dec 22, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			.
Not perception when I know of a few golfers who are known to "manage" their scores if they are playing too well so cuts don't occur and their hcp stays very comfortable for them.
Then when there's a board comp, or soemthing of worth they shoot 4 to 6 shots under net par.
		
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Think these folk are called 'bandits'. However, in my experience, the vast majority of golfers want to get their handicaps down as far as possible, because that is how their golfing prowess is defined. I even know of a few senior golfers with declining abilities who rarely play in Q comps in order to keep their handicaps down. Sort of reverse bandits if you like!  :mmm:


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Think these folk are called 'bandits'. However, in my experience, the vast majority of golfers want to get their handicaps down as far as possible, because that is how their prowess is defined. I even know of a few senior golfers who rarely play in Q comps in order to keep their handicaps down. Sort of reverse bandits if you like!
		
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I agree, they are. I was merely pointing out that it's not just "high hcps" that bandits appear. A bandit is anyone who artificially keeps a handicap higher than they can easily play to.


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