# Membership cost increase



## Genu9 (Nov 6, 2022)

It's that time of year again when clubs start declaring their proposed increases for 2023. We all expected increases in line with something near inflation but my club is proposing increases of between 16-20% depending on membership levels. 
I fear the worst for golf clubs as the cost of living crisis makes members consider what they need to afford. The majority of members at my club are over pension age and may struggle to justify continued membership.


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## Captainron (Nov 6, 2022)

Ours have gone up by £100 odd. Not too bad in the current climate.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 6, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			It's that time of year again when clubs start declaring their proposed increases for 2023. We all expected increases in line with something near inflation but my club is proposing increases of between 16-20% depending on membership levels.
I fear the worst for golf clubs as the cost of living crisis makes members consider what they need to afford. The majority of members at my club are over pension age and may struggle to justify continued membership.
		
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It would all depend on the current membership costs.  In the south most are around £1700-£2k to start so a 20% increase would be huge, however with some paying £600-700 in more rural and further northern areas wouldn't impact as much.


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## Pants (Nov 6, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			I fear the worst for golf clubs as the cost of living crisis makes members consider what they need to afford. The majority of members at my club are over pension age and may struggle to justify continued membership.
		
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My gut feeling is that it is precisely those members who will be the stalwards and try to keep their membership going.  From what I have seen, for many of the older generation golf club membership can become a large part of their lives - particularly those who may have lost their partners or have few other hobbies or social outlets.  If money becomes tight then the course or clubhouse is a good place to while away those long lonely hours, in the warm, friends to chat to, place to shower and eat...


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## JayB (Nov 6, 2022)

12% rise for me, while not huge in itself with everything else except wages increasing, I unfortunately can no longer justify the cost


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## 2blue (Nov 7, 2022)

I guess these are all January end-of-year.......  we've a bit to go to the end of March.


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## banjofred (Nov 7, 2022)

One of the choices I think they were wondering about....was *not* putting prices up much....they might then lose a few people who can't afford golf anymore, but gain some from other courses that might raise their membership costs quite a bit.


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## IanM (Nov 7, 2022)

Our membership is calendar year.   The invoice comes out at the end of this month. I wondered about the wisdom of invoicing at the most expensive time of the year  and when the course is looking its worse.

Golf is like any other leisure activity.   If you can't afford it you won't do it. 
I'm expecting  £300 a year increase,  that's a fiver a week, not an issue.   I'd stop buying alcohol, long before I stopped golf.

But, if you haven't got it, you haven't got it.


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## Dave1980 (Nov 7, 2022)

I would expect most clubs will be increasing by around 10% this year.


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## sunshine (Nov 7, 2022)

Nationalise all golf clubs, so they can be funded by the governent and operate at a loss.

Or maybe golf isn't a basic need, it's a luxury that doesn't need to be affordable for all.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 7, 2022)

Ours went up 10% to just over £1k. Which I think is a psychological tipping point for some people.

We’ve taken on a lot of new members through Covid at all levels including a lot of flexible members. I wouldn’t be surprised if we lost a few.


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## patricks148 (Nov 7, 2022)

Nothing confirmed yet, but I suspect a big increase coming. It was tried last year  with an increase from £800, to £1500. But luckily as the agm was through a Skype due to Covid restrictions lots voted against it. Alas now its returned to a normal meeting  so this time I suspect it will go though.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Nothing confirmed yet, but I suspect a big increase coming. It was tried last year  with an increase from £800, to £1500. But luckily as the agm was through a Skype due to Covid restrictions lots voted against it. Alas now its returned to a normal meeting  so this time I suspect it will go though.
		
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What was the justification for such a hike if you don't mind me asking?

I believe we need an EGM for anything over 5% (or potentially using the AGM) so I'm expecting a jump.  The club is very well run financially and I believe could absorb some of the cost, but that is just kicking the can down the road and will impact legacy projects, so I think the nettle will be grasped.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Nothing confirmed yet, but I suspect a big increase coming. It was tried last year  with an increase from £800, to £1500. But luckily as the agm was through a Skype due to Covid restrictions lots voted against it. Alas now its returned to a normal meeting  so this time I suspect it will go though.
		
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wow an 87.5% increase, that is insane, that cannot just be down to the increase in energy costs and staff wages. What are the those proposing it putting it down to


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## BiMGuy (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			wow an 87.5% increase, that is insane, that cannot just be down to the increase in energy costs and staff wages. What are the those proposing it putting it down to
		
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Shipley (I think it was) near Bradford did something similar many years ago. The old guard were complaining about too many societies and visitors.

So they proposed and voted in higher yearly fees and visitor fees, to cover having fewer visitors and societies.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2022)

Our renewal is not until 1st April.

Club rules state that the minimum increase is always the rate of inflation.

One wonders if inflation will be a bit more under control by them.

On a personal note I see club subs as cheap but I do not have to pay the interest on my mortgage if I do not wish to do so and have built up enough credit with my energy company not to have to worry about the increases until 2024.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Nothing confirmed yet, but I suspect a big increase coming. It was tried last year  with an increase from £800, to £1500. But luckily as the agm was through a Skype due to Covid restrictions lots voted against it. Alas now its returned to a normal meeting  so this time I suspect it will go though.
		
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 Does your club not do proxy voting then?


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## full_throttle (Nov 7, 2022)

9.7% at my away course,


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## IainP (Nov 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			Our membership is calendar year.   The invoice comes out at the end of this month. I wondered about the wisdom of invoicing at the most expensive time of the year  and when the course is looking its worse.

Golf is like any other leisure activity.   If you can't afford it you won't do it.
I'm expecting  £300 a year increase,  that's a fiver a week, not an issue.   I'd stop buying alcohol, long before I stopped golf.

But, if you haven't got it, you haven't got it.
		
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Agree, the calendar year renewal always felt an odd choice. When returning to golf and knowing likely to struggle on the value for money initially I delayed joining until May, as the club didn't pro rata, so renewal was next May 🙂.
Current club is April thankfully.


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2022)

We're capped at inflation +1% as a maximum...
Let's hope things have turned around a bit by April 
I'll still pay it but less would be better...


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## patricks148 (Nov 7, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			wow an 87.5% increase, that is insane, that cannot just be down to the increase in energy costs and staff wages. What are the those proposing it putting it down to
		
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Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k. 
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "


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## evemccc (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k.
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "
		
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Can see how infuriating that would be. Some people are v insensitive / short-sighted / ‘infraction’ ignorant


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k.
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "
		
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Do you anticipate losing many if they are successful in getting it through?


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## Dando (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k. 
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "
		
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Bloody southern infractioners


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## patricks148 (Nov 7, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you anticipate losing many if they are successful in getting it through?
		
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Who knows we let in loads of under 35 at less than full membership rate, so the numbers will still be high , some will oay as they ate well offand nairn is a wealthy retirement area, but many working guys will just jack it tbh.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Who knows we let in loads of under 35 at less than full membership rate, so the numbers will still be high , some will oay as they ate well offand nairn is a wealthy retirement area, but many working guys will just jack it tbh.
		
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It’s sounds like it could be short term gain with potential long term pain.


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## Golfnut1957 (Nov 7, 2022)

IanM said:



			Our membership is calendar year.   The invoice comes out at the end of this month. I wondered about the wisdom of invoicing at the most expensive time of the year  and when the course is looking its worse.

Golf is like any other leisure activity.   If you can't afford it you won't do it.
I'm expecting  £300 a year increase,  that's a fiver a week, not an issue.   I'd stop buying alcohol, long before I stopped golf.

But, if you haven't got it, you haven't got it.
		
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Our club used to be calendar year but took the opportunity post covid to reward the members for their loyalty with two free months, January & February and so now the subs become due on the 1st March. Much friendlier in my view.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It’s sounds like it could be short term gain with potential long term pain.
		
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But pain for whom? The rich retired probably won’t be affected that much, the youngsters are on cheap rate, so yet again it’s the working middle get squeezed, as Patrick said.


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## HeftyHacker (Nov 7, 2022)

Not heard anything from our club yet but would expect a 10% increase.

Interesting one on visitor prices. I was talking to my BiL who's a member at SAOL and he mentioned that they were putting their visitor prices up from £90 to £150 in 2023. The rationale being that currently a lot of overseas visitors simply don't include SAOL on their list of courses to play in the area as its deemed too cheap to possibly be any good! So by upping the prices they're hoping to attract some of the coachloads of tourists that play Royal Lytham every summer.


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## Bobthesock (Nov 7, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Not heard anything from our club yet but would expect a 10% increase.

Interesting one on visitor prices. I was talking to my BiL who's a member at SAOL and he mentioned that they were putting their visitor prices up from £90 to £150 in 2023. The rationale being that currently a lot of overseas visitors simply don't include SAOL on their list of courses to play in the area as its deemed too cheap to possibly be any good! So by upping the prices they're hoping to attract some of the coachloads of tourists that play Royal Lytham every summer.
		
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I'd pay £50-75 there probably not 90, and defo not 150! I hope they get enough oversees visitors because they sure as heck won't get many local ones


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 7, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But pain for whom? The rich retired probably won’t be affected that much, the youngsters are on cheap rate, so yet again it’s the working middle get squeezed, as Patrick said.
		
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This is why I think all members should pay the same ,no exceptions except juniors.
If you want to play pay the going rate.

I would love to drive a Bentley but there are no cheap deals for my age or sex.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 7, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But pain for whom? The rich retired probably won’t be affected that much, the youngsters are on cheap rate, so yet again it’s the working middle get squeezed, as Patrick said.
		
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that rich retired pipeline with little or no mortgage isn’t never ending


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## Oddsocks (Nov 7, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is why I think all members should pay the same ,no exceptions except juniors.
If you want to play pay the going rate.
		
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im aware of a club that has three categories, they’re also toying with the idea of ending 5 day memberships.

under 18’s
18-25
25+


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			that rich retired pipeline with little or no mortgage isn’t never ending 

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Generally the income drops and we couldn't pay a mortgage anyway. The state pension is a start but I doubt that hardly any pensioner could pay a golf club membership, and, all the subsequent costs involved with membership without having other sources of income. Even going to 5 day membership only saves a small amount and is rarely worth it.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			im aware of a club that has three categories, they’re also toying with the idea of ending 5 day memberships.

under 18’s
18-25
25+
		
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Basically ours.
Under 18
Under 30 no joining fee.
Female no joining fee.
Anywhere else that’s ageist and sexist.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 7, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Basically ours.
Under 18
Under 30 no joining fee.
Female no joining fee.
Anywhere else that’s ageist and sexist.
		
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Like seniors only comps.
OAP Discounts 
Free bus passes and prescriptions?
and a load of other stuff seniors and pensioners benefit from. 

Maybe younger folk and Women need a leg up more than old men?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 7, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Not heard anything from our club yet but would expect a 10% increase.

Interesting one on visitor prices. I was talking to my BiL who's a member at SAOL and he mentioned that they were putting their visitor prices up from £90 to £150 in 2023. The rationale being that currently a lot of overseas visitors simply don't include SAOL on their list of courses to play in the area as its deemed too cheap to possibly be any good! So by upping the prices they're hoping to attract some of the coachloads of tourists that play Royal Lytham every summer.
		
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Our club contract is inflation

We had 10% this year and people moaned and some left .. not being funny its a hobby, not a like energy or petrol or something If it goes up and you can't justify it then it that's that, I found it very hard listening to people moan when there are folk out there not turning on their heating because they can't afford it.


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## HeftyHacker (Nov 7, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			I'd pay £50-75 there probably not 90, and defo not 150! I hope they get enough oversees visitors because they sure as heck won't get many local ones
		
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I feel the same tbh, it feels like a bold move on their part. I've only ever played it on guest rates or in handicap team duties.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Like seniors only comps.
OAP Discounts
Free bus passes and prescriptions?
and a load of other stuff seniors and pensioners benefit from.

Maybe younger folk and Women need a leg up more than old men?
		
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But their in on a fixed income ...  Except when protected by the triple lock most years...


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## HeftyHacker (Nov 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Our club contract is inflation

We had 10% this year and people moaned and some left .. not being funny its a hobby, not a like energy or petrol or something If it goes up and you can't justify it then it that's that, I found it very hard listening to people moan when there are folk out there not turning on their heating because they can't afford it.
		
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Yeah, thankfully ours is cheap enough that it would only be a 50 quid increase for me.

With another littlun due next year I'm wondering whether to just pay an associate rate at another club to maintain my handicap and then just play opens next year as and when I can.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 7, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k.
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "
		
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It’s the same when it comes to housing, if you could pick this house up and move it down south it would be worth a fortune etc etc. ☹️


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 7, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Like seniors only comps.
OAP Discounts
Free bus passes and prescriptions?
and a load of other stuff seniors and pensioners benefit from.

Maybe younger folk and Women need a leg up more than old men?
		
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Who mentioned seniors ?
Most seniors have paid in into the system for 45+ years for the promised benefits. Male and Female.

But it’s not seniors that benefit in golf clubs.
The fact is men over the age of 30 yrs are discriminated against.
Unless you think any man over 30 is old.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 7, 2022)

Ours wont be due until next April but given the current planning application to build 57 holiday lodges over five of our holes I can't see how any rise will be justified....folks will exit in droves.


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## chrisd (Nov 8, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Alas lots of country members who are from the South East of England continually telling CM we are too cheap and if the course were down south it would be closer to £5k.
The answer is it's not, it's in the Highlands of Scotland and we are already the most expensive club by £200 already. Do they listen..do they "infraction "
		
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I'm sure they do listen and completely understand. Everyone knows that most golf in Scotland is cheaper than in the south ... Most things are! But I reckon the income is lower in the Highlands too equalise the issue


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2022)

If any increases above the norm are applied to cover cost of gas/leccy in terms of £££s that’ll be pretty consistent N/S/E/W, but for obvious reasons where subs are higher (such as in my part of the world) the % for gas/leccy will be lower.  If salaries are increased to help with cost of living that increase in ££s will be greater where salaries are higher and there are more club employees.  Obviously.  And that’s my part of world.

So, given other observations on cost of subs, just to say that at my place (and all similar members clubs in my area) a 10% increase in subs would see us break the £2k barrier.  And my income is constant and prob similar to those in my position across the country.  Just saying.  Not sure what my wife will say…well I do.  But that’s a discussion for Feb/March.

The other side of the ‘cost coin’ is that the course remodelling work we are doing at the moment should see us with a 365/yr course…only shut in extremis and only on temps when frozen (such days not so common as up north) …so all things considered our VfM is not bad at all.


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## Springveldt (Nov 8, 2022)

Ours runs April to March but the last 3 or so years the renewal has come out the week before Xmas with the offer of paying in full in January to get £35 on your club card. 
I was expecting ours to go up by at least 10% since we haven’t had a rise since before covid but I know one of the more expensive clubs near have just raised theirs by 18%. If ours goes up by that amount I’ll need to have a serious think about it.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Ours runs April to March but the last 3 or so years the renewal has come out the week before Xmas with the offer of paying in full in January to get £35 on your club card.
I was expecting ours to go up by at least 10% since we haven’t had a rise since before covid but I know one of the more expensive clubs near have just raised theirs by 18%. If ours goes up by that amount I’ll need to have a serious think about it.
		
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Yes have heard of clubs putting fees up above the inflation rate .
Ours havnt been announced yet.
But we’re the same due 1st Jan.
Dosnt bother me ,I use a savings ACC and put £120 a month in to cover it.
But some won’t be able to.
There will be some people who love their golf won’t be able to afford it that’s a shame.


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## Bobthesock (Nov 8, 2022)

Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones
		
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What about gas and electric?

They only just have got protection until April like everyone else then they will go back to being instant rises by looks 

Those bills are going up ridiculously.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Ours runs April to March but the last 3 or so years the renewal has come out the week before Xmas with the offer of paying in full in January to get £35 on your club card.
I was expecting ours to go up by at least 10% since we haven’t had a rise since before covid but I know one of the more expensive clubs near have just raised theirs by 18%. If ours goes up by that amount I’ll need to have a serious think about it.
		
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There are plenty of options nearby. Perhaps with compromises but they are still out there and cheaper than we currently pay. They will have to be careful to keep any rise within acceptable, that's an opinion of course, levels.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 8, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones
		
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Fertiliser has gone up massively yes. 
Fuel costs up
Gas and Electricity going up massively. 

And those are the ones just published, sand costs are way more than before, machinery has gone up.

All you need to do is ask your manager to see how stressed they are getting by day to day.


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones
		
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As a Greens Director the costs involved now are staggering, don't forget our staff will need pay rises,  leasing costs for the machinery, diesel has rocketed, our fertiliser costs next year will rise again as we carry out remedial work from the hot summer


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There are plenty of options nearby. Perhaps with compromises but they are still out there and cheaper than we currently pay. They will have to be careful to keep any rise within acceptable, that's an opinion of course, levels.
		
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Be careful what you wish for; once everyone abandons the expensive one for the cheaper one, the expensive one goes under and the cheaper one now has a captive audience which it can now charge whatever it wants. Yes, it’s an oversimplification but the basic premise applies.

Loads of choices down here, but nothing that I’d want to join over what I’ve currently got, so my choice will either be pay the increase or pack the game in.  At the moment I don’t have enough time for motorcycling and golf, so if golf goes the alternative is in the garage bought and paid for. I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that but we’ll see what happens.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Be careful what you wish for; once everyone abandons the expensive one for the cheaper one, the expensive one goes under and the cheaper one now has a captive audience which it can now charge whatever it wants. Yes, it’s an oversimplification but the basic premise applies.

Loads of choices down here, but nothing that I’d want to join over what I’ve currently got, so my choice will either be pay the increase or pack the game in.  At the moment I don’t have enough time for motorcycling and golf, so if golf goes the alternative is in the garage bought and paid for. I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that but we’ll see what happens.
		
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I get where you  are coming from but it is not a case of course A or course B. We have a choice of A, B, C, D, E or F, possibly more, all within a 16 minute drive. The price of membership, like most areas, is geographical and my current club, same as @Springveldt is on the borderline regarding membership costs. North of there is £150-£175 cheaper, south of it is similar or £100 more. There are definite options for all members in the area to jump to, if anything we have an over supply of clubs. If one goes under the others will not ramp up their fees to take advantage, there is still too much competition.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get where you  are coming from but it is not a case of course A or course B. We have a choice of A, B, C, D, E or F, possibly more, all within a 16 minute drive. The price of membership, like most areas, is geographical and my current club, same as @Springveldt is on the borderline regarding membership costs. North of there is £150-£175 cheaper, south of it is similar or £100 more. There are definite options for all members in the area to jump to, if anything we have an over supply of clubs. If one goes under the others will not ramp up their fees to take advantage, there is still too much competition.
		
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If you can just walk into the next club because you’re oversupplied for clubs then fine; we currently have a 3 figure waiting list for membership and that’s before you look at the internal waiting list for social members waiting to return to full membership.  I’m not sure what other clubs are like for waiting lists down here but a change of clubs is likely to attract a healthy joining fee which to some degree defeats the object in moving clubs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 8, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Shipley (I think it was) near Bradford did something similar many years ago. The old guard were complaining about too many societies and visitors.

So they proposed and voted in higher yearly fees and visitor fees, to cover having fewer visitors and societies.
		
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One of my old club's did that.
First person they lost was the excellent Pro, second a few months later was the excellent catering franchise.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you can just walk into the next club because you’re oversupplied for clubs then fine; we currently have a 3 figure waiting list for membership and that’s before you look at the internal waiting list for social members waiting to return to full membership.  I’m not sure what other clubs are like for waiting lists down here but a change of clubs is likely to attract a healthy joining fee which to some degree defeats the object in moving clubs.
		
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We are lucky in that sense. Lots of clubs, barely any with a waiting list, none in my immediate vicinity, and no joining fees either. There may be 2 in the whole county that have a joining fee, it is not a thing up here. I don't underestimate how lucky I am to play golf here.


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## banjofred (Nov 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We are lucky in that sense. Lots of clubs, barely any with a waiting list, none in my immediate vicinity, and no joining fees either. There may be 2 in the whole county that have a joining fee, it is not a thing up here. I don't underestimate how lucky I am to play golf here.
		
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I think there was only one club in our area with a waiting list.....not sure about joining fees, but I think that one club is the only one that "might" have a joining fee. I don't hear anything about joining fees, so I wouldn't think there are many clubs around Harrogate that would still be doing that. Could be wrong of course.......


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## moogie (Nov 8, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Ours runs April to March but the last 3 or so years the renewal has come out the week before Xmas with the offer of paying in full in January to get £35 on your club card.
I was expecting ours to go up by at least 10% since we haven’t had a rise since before covid but I know one of the more expensive clubs near have just raised theirs by 18%. If ours goes up by that amount I’ll need to have a serious think about it.
		
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Which local club has put their fees up by 18%,  if you don't mind me asking??


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## Captain_Black. (Nov 8, 2022)

The clubs have to be careful.
I suspect most clubs will retain the Seniors section due to the amount of golf they can play & the value they get from their membership.
The danger lies in retaining the working age membership, with mortgages  / bills / cost of living all getting more expensive this group will be looking to make savings.
It's hard to justify an expensive golf membership when you're struggling to pay the mortgage & bills.

I'm not sure about the membership increase at my club yet, but they have put up the open prices up for visitors by 66% !!!
Crazy imo, as revenue will undoubtedly drop & may put off potential new members from visiting.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 8, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones
		
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Fertiliser has gone up by almost 40% 
Some things have stayed the same not many.
There is profiteering everywhere 
But I agree some clubs will go up 10% but only give staff 5% pay rise.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 8, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Be careful what you wish for; once everyone abandons the expensive one for the cheaper one, the expensive one goes under and the cheaper one now has a captive audience which it can now charge whatever it wants. Yes, it’s an oversimplification but the basic premise applies.

Loads of choices down here, but nothing that I’d want to join over what I’ve currently got, so my choice will either be pay the increase or pack the game in.  At the moment I don’t have enough time for motorcycling and golf, so if golf goes the alternative is in the garage bought and paid for. I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that but we’ll see what happens.
		
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Be a real shame if anyone has to pack in because  their club prices them out.
But it’s going to happen.


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## Neilds (Nov 8, 2022)

Not sure what increase we will have next year but we have embarked on a 5 year program to redesign all the bunkers (4 holes done so far) and also recently installed toptracer and lights on the range to try and bring in more income.  I only joined the club a couple of years ago but from what I have heard, certain members were reluctant to spend the windfall we got from selling land to a developer and they would rather have loads in the bank than improve the facilities.  Hopefully we have now got the balance right and we don't overstretch ourselves.


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## D-S (Nov 8, 2022)

Bobthesock said:



			Can't really see why fees should go up by 10% or higher. Yes things like fertilizer have gone up but that isn't enough to justify it. Sounds like profiteering by the clubs, especially privately owned ones
		
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Golf course machinery costs have gone up by 20-30% and this is a significant chunk of any clubs budget.


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## Ian_George (Nov 8, 2022)

D-S said:



			Golf course machinery costs have gone up by 20-30% and this is a significant chunk of any clubs budget.
		
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Don't forget power and fuel. And probably wages as mitigation for cost of living increases.


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## IanM (Nov 9, 2022)

Just been offered a decent short term contract.  I'll do that till end of March.

That's any membership increase and all golf trips covered for 2023.   

Radical solution,  but effective.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 9, 2022)

I might have said it before, but our clubs solution will likely to be to re-allow/increase society offerings (I don’t think we’ve allowed societies since Covid). Just the energy bill alone was increasing by something silly like £100k so unless you open the flood gates to new members (we are oversubscribed as it is) you’ve got to do something to generate revenue or the full cost will go onto the members.

That being said, surely everyone fully expects an increase of anything up to about 10-15%?
We’re private/member owned so I trust that any increase passed on to members is fully merited. Would be a trickier one to accept if there was an owner taking a fat salary and wanting to like his own pocket under the guise of inflation driven increases.


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## Albo (Nov 9, 2022)

I think everyone does expect a rise 10% or thereabouts.
However, I do wonder how many won’t renew. There are many comments in this thread about it only equating to £2 a week or whatever, what I think people are missing is the real squeeze that many people are feeling at the moment, and yes I fully understand the clubs are also feeling the squeeze. But I fear for many a golf club is a luxury and generally speaking an expensive one at that, that luxury getting more expensive (understandably so) at a time where essential for living items (food / heating etc) are also going up and real term wages going down, will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, that said many of these people wouldn’t have taken membership again this coming year even without the price rise.

It’s tough for clubs, they understandably need to raise prices, but in doing so risk hitting that tipping point for some as long as the end result is them bringing in more revenue than they did last year that’s as good as it might get. Longer term, if the rise in subs and subsequent drop off in some members, means the club no longer has enough funding for the year to maintain 2022 standards/improvements, I fear 2024 will be an even harder year for many clubs as people will start to resent being charged more for an inferior product.
Tough times


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## r0wly86 (Nov 9, 2022)

I feel if a club does make a profit or surplus, that they will have to accept that they won't be making money for the next couple of years, ride out the storm and try and retain as many members as possible. If they put up their prices in order to sustain the same levels of profit of surplus then they may lose a lot of members.
If clubs are just about sustainable before the increase in prices, then I genuinely fear for their future, people are going to have a lot less money and luxuries like playing golf will probably be the first thing to go for a lot of families


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## Oddsocks (Nov 9, 2022)

The missing link will be people with multiple memberships, these will almost certainly be first hit even if it’s just a social membership.

Flexi / points based memberships are about to see a boom in my eyes, play more golf as an example.  My membership this year was 1600 and looking back at the amount of golf I’ve played, I wouldn’t have used my credit allowance if I’d been a play more golf member paying only £700.  By the time they have taken their management fee I would guess my club would have received 600-650 for my membership opposed to the full 7 day membership.  That’s a £1000 saving for me and an equal loss to the club.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 9, 2022)

Albo said:



			...It’s tough for clubs, they understandably need to raise prices, but in doing so risk hitting that tipping point for some as long as the end result is them bringing in more revenue than they did last year that’s as good as it might get. Longer term, if the rise in subs and subsequent drop off in some members, means the club no longer has enough funding for the year to maintain 2022 standards/improvements,* I fear 2024 will be an even harder year for many clubs as people will start to resent being charged more for an inferior product.*
Tough times
		
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This will be the crux of it for me; I'd prefer that the club raised it by sufficient that they maintain the current standards than raised it by a bit less but let standards slip.  That really would grate.


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## HeftyHacker (Nov 9, 2022)

Just had ours through this morning. The email details how the committee debated between a 5, 7 or 10% increase and decided to settle somewhere between 7 and 10% across all member categories.

I've just done the calculations and my associate membership is an 11% increase on last year 😂.

I was expecting worse tbh as I was half thinking they might do away with the associate memberships in which case I'd have probably let my membership lapse. As it is I'll be renewing.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 9, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Just had ours through this morning. The email details how the committee debated between a 5, 7 or 10% increase and decided to settle somewhere between 7 and 10% across all member categories.

I've just done the calculations and my associate membership is an 11% increase on last year 😂.

I was expecting worse tbh as I was half thinking they might do away with the associate memberships in which case I'd have probably let my membership lapse. As it is I'll be renewing.
		
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They decided with between 7/10% rise.
And yours has gone up 11% , whose doing the maths.


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## SurreyGolfer (Nov 9, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			The missing link will be people with multiple memberships, these will almost certainly be first hit even if it’s just a social membership.

*Flexi / points based memberships are about to see a boom in my eyes*, play more golf as an example.  My membership this year was 1600 and looking back at the amount of golf I’ve played, I wouldn’t have used my credit allowance if I’d been a play more golf member paying only £700.  By the time they have taken their management fee I would guess my club would have received 600-650 for my membership opposed to the full 7 day membership.  That’s a £1000 saving for me and an equal loss to the club.
		
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I've got one at Pyrford, roughly spend about ~£500 a year and it suits me perfectly (playing at odd times due to work/family commitments). They become pricey if I want to play in comps as they're usually at peak times, or just recreationally at peak times. But for me it was a choice between ~£500 flexi or ~£150 a month knowing I wouldn't extract full value. 

It's a great way to get people into the game too. Completely agree with you.


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## Springveldt (Nov 10, 2022)

moogie said:



			Which local club has put their fees up by 18%,  if you don't mind me asking??
		
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The Park from what I've been told. I know they run January to December so renewals have just gone out. It was one of the most expensive in the area already before the rise.

I noticed for the first time ever that they also had an offer on my facebook feed last month that was for joining now and getting 15 months for the price of 12. I've never, ever saw them advertising for members before.


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## HeftyHacker (Nov 10, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			They decided with between 7/10% rise.
And yours has gone up 11% , whose doing the maths. 

Click to expand...

Haha I know, I did nearly email back. When I opened the attachment with the fees on I thought it looked a bit off so got the calculator out 😂.


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## Springveldt (Nov 10, 2022)

Albo said:



			I think everyone does expect a rise 10% or thereabouts.
However, I do wonder how many won’t renew. There are many comments in this thread about it only equating to £2 a week or whatever, what I think people are missing is the real squeeze that many people are feeling at the moment, and yes I fully understand the clubs are also feeling the squeeze. But I fear for many a golf club is a luxury and generally speaking an expensive one at that, that luxury getting more expensive (understandably so) at a time where essential for living items (food / heating etc) are also going up and real term wages going down, will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, that said many of these people wouldn’t have taken membership again this coming year even without the price rise.

It’s tough for clubs, they understandably need to raise prices, but in doing so risk hitting that tipping point for some as long as the end result is them bringing in more revenue than they did last year that’s as good as it might get. Longer term, if the rise in subs and subsequent drop off in some members, means the club no longer has enough funding for the year to maintain 2022 standards/improvements, I fear 2024 will be an even harder year for many clubs as people will start to resent being charged more for an inferior product.
Tough times
		
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Yeah, it's the accumulation of things. I know in my household (with 2 kids) we are about £30 a week more for food without buying anything extra and my fuel bill is £330 a month, up from about £170 last year. Diesel has also gone up massively as have take-away treats. It's £7 for a meal in McDonalds now FFS. .  I expect council tax will go up by it's usual 5% come April and I'm already paying £270 a month for that.

I don't have a smart meter so I've been taking meter readings every day and wrote a spreadsheet to calculate it. I'm currently using about £6 a day electricity (work from home, 2 kids etc) and £3 a day for gas and that's without the heating being on. I did a test and turned the heating on for 7 hours and set the thermostat at 18 and I used £7 of gas that day. So come the cold weather when the heating needs to go on I'll be looking at about £13 a day at least for fuel.

In my head I've already budgeted for a 10% increase in golf and I'll pay that but if it goes up by 18% or 20% then I'll need to have a long hard think, especially since our greens this year were garbage during the summer compared to my 5 other years of membership. It's a hard ask to ask for 20% more when loads of the membership were complaining about the course conditions this season. To be fair to my club though it is very well run and they do react to criticism very quickly. I'll be very surprised if they did ask for 20% more.

The scary thing for me is that I'm on a decent wage for my area, I'd hate to think what others that aren't are feeling at the moment.


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## moogie (Nov 10, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			The Park from what I've been told. I know they run January to December so renewals have just gone out. It was one of the most expensive in the area already before the rise.

I noticed for the first time ever that they also had an offer on my facebook feed last month that was for joining now and getting 15 months for the price of 12. I've never, ever saw them advertising for members before.
		
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Wow
That's a hefty rise on fees,  as you say,  high anyway (for our county)
Though it is a private members club unlike any other in area,  in that respect

I've never seen them have to advertise for members before either,  nor any offers.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 10, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Haha I know, I did nearly email back. When I opened the attachment with the fees on I thought it looked a bit off so got the calculator out 😂.
		
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Clever from the club .
Tell you it’s 10% but charge 11% how many would check.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2022)

Our builder quoted £1500 to take down and dispose of our conservatory.  I’m doing it myself, and the labour cost I save (will still have to pay council to remove dismantled if can’t get someone to take it off my hands) will cover any increase in next years subs.  Well I blinkin’ well hope it does.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our builder quoted £1500 to take down and dispose of our conservatory.  I’m doing it myself, and the labour cost I save (will still have to pay council to remove dismantled if can’t get someone to take it off my hands) will cover any increase in next years subs.  Well I blinkin’ well hope it does.
		
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Cut the bugger up and run it to the dump in sections for recycling.  The glass panels should unclip if you remove the beads


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Cut the bugger up and run it to the dump in sections for recycling.  The glass panels should unclip if you remove the beads
		
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Got a couple of folk willing to take it away - wish them luck trying to build it again.  Anyway…I’ve just about dismantled it, but can’t get the internal glazing beads out - I am wary about applying too much pressure in case I shatter a glazing panel…hopefully I’ll get the knack tomorrow.


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## Jimmy_T (Nov 12, 2022)

10% at my place - about standard across the UK I would imagine. Solid rationale put forward by the club around rising costs, I’m proud to say it also included the fact we’re giving the lowest paid staff at the club a 10% pay rise.

I will gladly make savings elsewhere to cover the cost, which probably equates to a couple of bottles of wine every month. So a win/win for my health too 😁


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## hovis (Nov 13, 2022)

I wonder if subs will decrease if inflation and energy costs decrease 🤔.


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## D-S (Nov 13, 2022)

hovis said:



			I wonder if subs will decrease if inflation and energy costs decrease 🤔.
		
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I wonder if everyone will expect pay cuts.


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## Pants (Nov 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I wonder if everyone will expect pay cuts.
		
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## clubchamp98 (Nov 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I wonder if everyone will expect pay cuts.
		
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Only the ones who get a rise in the first place.


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## sunshine (Nov 13, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			The missing link will be people with multiple memberships, these will almost certainly be first hit even if it’s just a social membership.
		
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I'll just fetch my violin to play a little tune for those poor souls who can no longer afford multiple memberships. Some of them will have to slum it with a single membership.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 13, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I'll just fetch my violin to play a little tune for those poor souls who can no longer afford multiple memberships. Some of them will have to slum it with a single membership.
		
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You’re missing the point.  A lot of clubs that are being used as secondary or third memberships will see little traffic for that membership.  You start taking slot of county/5 day memberships from a clubs cash flow and they’ll feel the hit


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## upsidedown (Nov 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I wonder if everyone will expect pay cuts.
		
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Nah ,it's only nurses that get that


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 13, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I'll just fetch my violin to play a little tune for those poor souls who can no longer afford multiple memberships. Some of them will have to slum it with a single membership.
		
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Oddsocks said:



			You’re missing the point.  A lot of clubs that are being used as secondary or third memberships will see little traffic for that membership.  You start taking slot of county/5 day memberships from a clubs cash flow and they’ll feel the hit
		
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Loss of revenue from country memberships is only the first issue; the secondary will be the hike that becomes necessary to keep the club afloat that then means single club members may no longer be able to afford membership.  And if they lose too many of those members the vicious circle will continue.


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## IanM (Nov 13, 2022)

Ours will be £1220 next year if approved by the SGM later in the month.  Up from (I think) £1050 this year.  

£100 a month is comfortably less than St Pierre and Celtic Manor.   Although St P includes use of something called a gym!

Looking at the accounts, I think the management have done well.  
We have 73 on the waiting list, and a joining fee.   Wonder if we'll lose any/many?

Interestingly,  the summer green fee is up £10 to £70.    That's a reflection on trying to keep visitor numbers down.  That will round here!!


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## D-S (Nov 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			Ours will be £1220 next year if approved by the SGM later in the month.  Up from (I think) £1050 this year. 

£100 a month is comfortably less than St Pierre and Celtic Manor.   Although St P includes use of something called a gym!

Looking at the accounts, I think the management have done well. 
We have 73 on the waiting list, and a joining fee.   Wonder if we'll lose any/many?

Interestingly,  the summer green fee is up £10 to £70.    That's a reflection on trying to keep visitor numbers down.  That will round here!!
		
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So 16%? 
Also certainly better value at ‘Rogerstone’ (as we know it from this side of the river), than St.Pierre or Celtic Manor - proper members club as well as a good track.


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## Slab (Nov 14, 2022)

Re waiting lists, how are they kept active?
(not really worth another thread) 

Do the waiting players pay to be on the list or some other  metric used to keep the list active
I. E if the list is 100 strong how does the club know at any time how many would join if offered membership next season? 
10 mightve moved house
10 could be dead
10 no longer able to afford it
10 lost interest
10 joined elsewhere
Etc
Etc
And suddenly 40 players leave/don't renew but there's only an actual waiting list of 20 to bring in

Or is it just a bit like social media followers where xyz has a million followers but actually only 100k of them visited in the last 6 months


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## Albo (Nov 14, 2022)

I think if I had to pay to be allowed to wait to join a golf course, I’d not be joining said golf course


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## Oddsocks (Nov 14, 2022)

Slab said:



			Re waiting lists, how are they kept active?
(not really worth another thread)

Do the waiting players pay to be on the list or some other  metric used to keep the list active
I. E if the list is 100 strong how does the club know at any time how many would join if offered membership next season?
10 mightve moved house
10 could be dead
10 no longer able to afford it
10 lost interest
10 joined elsewhere
Etc
Etc
And suddenly 40 players leave/don't renew but there's only an actual waiting list of 20 to bring in

Or is it just a bit like social media followers where xyz has a million followers but actually only 100k of them visited in the last 6 months
		
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A club around here had a very strong waiting list for over three years, when they revisited the list the 119 that were on it was down to 30 as they had joined elsewhere etc etc.

Two other strong clubs only charge £250 joining fee but that is paid prior to going on a waiting this.  This is fully refundable if you change your mind but it does allow them to have a current and accurate forecast of potential members.  I have no gripe with this system.


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## banjofred (Nov 14, 2022)

Albo said:



			I think if I had to pay to be allowed to wait to join a golf course, I’d not be joining said golf course
		
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When I moved back to the UK, this was my attitude as well. Lucky timing for me, no waiting list, no joining fee, running shoes were allowed inside......if it had been like it was 20 years ago I would have found something else to do.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 14, 2022)

Slab said:



			Re waiting lists, how are they kept active?
(not really worth another thread)

Do the waiting players pay to be on the list or some other  metric used to keep the list active
I. E if the list is 100 strong how does the club know at any time how many would join if offered membership next season?
10 mightve moved house
10 could be dead
10 no longer able to afford it
10 lost interest
10 joined elsewhere
Etc
Etc
And suddenly 40 players leave/don't renew but there's only an actual waiting list of 20 to bring in

Or is it just a bit like social media followers where xyz has a million followers but actually only 100k of them visited in the last 6 months
		
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You would hope people on the list would inform the club they no longer wish to join.
But if 40 leave and only 20 join your 20 members down .
Simple as that.


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## Slab (Nov 14, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			You would hope people on the list would inform the club they no longer wish to join.
But if 40 leave and only 20 join your 20 members down .
Simple as that.
		
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Perhaps but by the same token if a club doesn't keep in touch with potential members why would potential members keep in touch with the club

Two way wotsit


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## hovis (Nov 14, 2022)

Slab said:



			Perhaps but by the same token if a club doesn't keep in touch with potential members why would potential members keep in touch with the club

Two way wotsit
		
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I'm on a waiting list for a fishing lake.  Each year I get an email asking me of intent to join


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## Albo (Nov 14, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			You would hope people on the list would inform the club they no longer wish to join.
But if 40 leave and only 20 join your 20 members down .
Simple as that.
		
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I disagree that I should inform the club if I no longer want to be on the wait list.
I am the customer in this relationship, if they want my custom they need to be the ones reaching out to me, not expecting me to tell them if I change my mind.
Simply an email out at the start of the year to say waiting list still in operation, thanks for your patience, if you no longer wish to be on the list please let us know.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 14, 2022)

Albo said:



			I disagree that I should inform the club if I no longer want to be on the wait list.
I am the customer in this relationship, if they want my custom they need to be the ones reaching out to me, not expecting me to tell them if I change my mind.
Simply an email out at the start of the year to say waiting list still in operation, thanks for your patience, if you no longer wish to be on the list please let us know.
		
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We will have to agree to disagree.
I think it’s common curtesy to inform a club.
you have actively put your name on  their list that you no longer want to be a member.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

hovis said:



*I'm on a waiting list for a fishing lake*.  Each year I get an email asking me of intent to join
		
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Does it hold anything special?


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## Crazyface (Nov 14, 2022)

If clubs put their subs up then we should all kick off and contact the BBC about how we, as golfers, are now struggling to pay for something that we could previously afford and due to price increases cause by people in power we are no longer able to afford to pay for this and just what is the government going to do about it!!!!!!!?


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## hovis (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Does it hold anything special? 

Click to expand...

Yeh.  About 10x 40lb+ carp


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## Ian_George (Nov 14, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Does it hold anything special? 

Click to expand...

Less and less - but, if it reflects that of a mate's one, they are getting bigger!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			If clubs put their subs up then we should all kick off and contact the BBC about how we, as golfers, are now struggling to pay for something that we could previously afford and due to price increases cause by people in power we are no longer able to afford to pay for this and just what is the government going to do about it!!!!!!!?  

Click to expand...

Alternatively a call to Mr Ferrari on LBC should have him venting his spleen about the injustice and inconvenience, as he does…though we’d probably first have to be seeing it being reported on the front page of the DM 🙄


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## Bdill93 (Nov 14, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yeh.  About 10x 40lb+ carp
		
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Oooh lovely! Best of luck when you finally get in!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 15, 2022)

Just got my subs for next year.
It’s gone up 12%


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## Oddsocks (Nov 16, 2022)

I was talking to friend who’s on a committee of a club this week and he has strongly urged the management to hold fees at the current cost with NO INCREASE this year.  With clubs around them already £150-200 more expensive and all looking at a 10% average increase, he has urged the club to look at this as an ideal time to recruit more members.

Smart move if you have spaces to fill.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I was talking to friend who’s on a committee of a club this week and he has strongly urged the management to hold fees at the current cost with NO INCREASE this year.  With clubs around them already £150-200 more expensive and all looking at a 10% average increase, he has urged the club to look at this as an ideal time to recruit more members.

Smart move if you have spaces to fill.
		
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That only works if you have sufficient tee times to accommodate them. I’m sure there was someone on here bemoaning the fact that he couldn’t get a time at his club.  If I could just remember who it was… 🤔 😉


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## Oddsocks (Nov 16, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			That only works if you have sufficient tee times to accommodate them. I’m sure there was someone on here bemoaning the fact that he couldn’t get a time at his club.  If I could just remember who it was… 🤔 😉
		
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Not the same club blue, but I’m impressed that your memory can still go 6-8 months. 😁


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## banjofred (Nov 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I was talking to friend who’s on a committee of a club this week and he has strongly urged the management to hold fees at the current cost with NO INCREASE this year.  With clubs around them already £150-200 more expensive and all looking at a 10% average increase, he has urged the club to look at this as an ideal time to recruit more members.

Smart move if you have spaces to fill.
		
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This is what I mentioned back on page 1, same thing I've "heard" our club is thinking about doing.

Although, as mentioned, if this were to increase the difficulty of getting tee times I would likely move back to another club I was at last year....longer drive, but easy to get a tee time.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Not the same club blue, but I’m impressed that your memory can still go 6-8 months. 😁
		
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😁  Joking aside, the point still stands; it only works if you’re short. Ours has been looking at letting more in but keeping a close eye on tee times it appears there isn’t the space without risking a shortage of weekend tee times.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 16, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			😁  Joking aside, the point still stands; it only works if you’re short. Ours has been looking at letting more in but keeping a close eye on tee times it appears there isn’t the space without risking a shortage of weekend tee times.
		
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This is happening at mine now.
You need a very fast finger to get in the comps on sat now.
I havnt got a time for the next two Saturdays , not to bothered as I can play midweek.
But anyone working all week has a problem.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 16, 2022)

On the subject of waiting lists?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of having to pay just to join the waiting list? As someone alluded to on here.

Additionally… I’d love to join Burnham & Berrow as a country member. It’s 140 miles/2hrs 40mins away, and for £590 per year it is fair value. However… Their waiting list is completely full and they’re not entertaining new applications.

Kind of like the queue to see the Queen lying in state… I’d like to form a new waiting list to join the full waiting list… Rather than trying to remember to check the website every once in a while.

Or they could up the price a bit, get rid of a few existing country members and dissuade some more from the waiting list and happy days


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 16, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			On the subject of waiting lists?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of having to pay just to join the waiting list? As someone alluded to on here.

Additionally… I’d love to join Burnham & Berrow as a country member. It’s 140 miles/2hrs 40mins away, and for £590 per year it is fair value. However… Their waiting list is completely full and they’re not entertaining new applications.

Kind of like the queue to see the Queen lying in state… I’d like to form a new waiting list to join the full waiting list… Rather than trying to remember to check the website every once in a while.

Or they could up the price a bit, get rid of a few existing country members and dissuade some more from the waiting list and happy days
		
Click to expand...

Get Phil & Holly to sponsor you .
You will be in the front  then no waiting.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 16, 2022)

Albo said:



			I disagree that I should inform the club if I no longer want to be on the wait list.
*I am the customer in this relationship,* if they want my custom they need to be the ones reaching out to me, not expecting me to tell them if I change my mind.
Simply an email out at the start of the year to say waiting list still in operation, thanks for your patience, if you no longer wish to be on the list please let us know.
		
Click to expand...

You're looking to be a *member*, it's a big difference, you're part of the club, you're part owner of the club


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## Albo (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're looking to be a *member*, it's a big difference, you're part of the club, you're part owner of the club
		
Click to expand...

Indeed I am, but there are many clubs in the vicinity, I have the right to expect a certain level of them trying covert me as a potential member, and if a mail shot once per year is too much for them to do, then why should I bother telling them when I’m no longer interested??


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## SurreyGolfer (Nov 16, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			On the subject of waiting lists?
*I don’t think I’ve ever heard of having to pay just to join the waiting list? As someone alluded to on here.*

Additionally… I’d love to join Burnham & Berrow as a country member. It’s 140 miles/2hrs 40mins away, and for £590 per year it is fair value. However… Their waiting list is completely full and they’re not entertaining new applications.

Kind of like the queue to see the Queen lying in state… I’d like to form a new waiting list to join the full waiting list… Rather than trying to remember to check the website every once in a while.

Or they could up the price a bit, get rid of a few existing country members and dissuade some more from the waiting list and happy days
		
Click to expand...

Burhill do this, they prioritise:
- 5 day members who wish to upgrade to 7 day memberships
- people on the waiting list who have paid a non-refundable deposit of £350
- people on the waiting list


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## D-S (Nov 16, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			On the subject of waiting lists?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of having to pay just to join the waiting list? As someone alluded to on here.
		
Click to expand...

We did offer people to pay to be on the waiting list. The money was refundable against their joining fee when they got in. We also allowed them then to use the practice facilities and gave them a bar card which discounted drinks in the interim. This was to give us some certainty that they were not just on our list as well as many others and had some sort of a commitment and wouldn’t disappear the moment a vacancy arose. Proved very popular.
Just emailing people once a year saying “by the way you’re not in yet” doesn’t really help much for either party.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're looking to be a *member*, it's a big difference, you're part of the club, you're part owner of the club
		
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Only of those clubs where the 'part ownership' can be sold! Not many of those that I know of, but may be different in Bonnyland!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			Only of those clubs where the 'part ownership' can be sold! Not many of those that I know of, but may be different in Bonnyland!
		
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Most clubs are members clubs, in fact proprietary clubs are very rare in Scotland. If you're a member it's your club.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Most clubs are members clubs, in fact proprietary clubs are very rare in Scotland. *If you're a member it's your club.*

Click to expand...

But if you can't sell your 'part ownership', what's the benefit. In fact, how can you actually be a 'part owner'! All the clubs I've belonged to, including 2 in Scotland, have been 'my club', but I've never owned any part of them!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			But if you can't sell your 'part ownership', what's the benefit. In fact, how can you actually be a 'part owner'! All the clubs I've belonged to, including 2 in Scotland, have been 'my club', but I've never owned any part of them!
		
Click to expand...

Albo is saying he's a "customer", he's not (unless it's proprietary), if you're a member, it's your club, all expenses of that club are ultimately paid from your pocket. The benefit is you can shapoe decisions in your club, you can help that club be better, you can volunteer when needed. It's YOUR club.


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Albo is saying he's a "customer", he's not (unless it's proprietary), if you're a member, it's your club, all expenses of that club are ultimately paid from your pocket. The benefit is you can shapoe decisions in your club, you can help that club be better, you can volunteer when needed. It's YOUR club.
		
Click to expand...

But not 'part owner' as I don't believe I can sell my portion! I know all the rest and much of it applies to a non-member too! Here's the 1st definition I found 'If you have ownership, you can possess, enjoy, sell, give away, bequeath, destroy, or sell an item of property'! So 'part ownership' means you can sell you can do that to or with your part! Basically, the assertion that someone who pays their sub is a 'part owner' is rubbish!


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 16, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			But not 'part owner' as I don't believe I can sell my portion! I know all the rest and much of it applies to a non-member too! Here's the 1st definition I found 'If you have ownership, you can possess, enjoy, sell, give away, bequeath, destroy, or sell an item of property'! So 'part ownership' means you can sell you can do that to or with your part!
		
Click to expand...


You are


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## Albo (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Albo is saying he's a "customer", he's not (unless it's proprietary), if you're a member, it's your club, all expenses of that club are ultimately paid from your pocket. The benefit is you can shapoe decisions in your club, you can help that club be better, you can volunteer when needed. It's YOUR club.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not though, in the example I mentioned, I am on the wait list and decide to no longer be on said wait list, and as they have not reached out to me in the years I’ve been on the wait list I’ve not bothered to tell them ima member somewhere else and no longer wish to be on the wait list.
Unless and until I join I am not a member, part owner or anything similar, I am a potential member, part owner or as I see myself at the time a potential customer, who, in light of being on a wait list for 3 years with no contact from the club in those 3 years, I’ve decided to join somewhere else and have treat the club with the same contempt as they did with me


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You are

View attachment 45220

Click to expand...

2nd def is distinctly different to 1st! And you still haven't answered my question that is fundamental to ownership! Can a member, who you claim to be a part-owner, sell their part of the club they own!


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## Ian_George (Nov 16, 2022)

Albo said:



			I’m not though, in the example I mentioned, I am on the wait list and decide to no longer be on said wait list, and as they have not reached out to me in the years I’ve been on the wait list I’ve not bothered to tell them ima member somewhere else and no longer wish to be on the wait list.
Unless and until I join I am not a member, part owner or anything similar, I am a potential member, part owner or as I see myself at the time a potential customer, who, in light of being on a wait list for 3 years with no contact from the club in those 3 years, I’ve decided to join somewhere else and have treat the club with the same contempt as they did with me
		
Click to expand...

Your prerogative. But I think I'd have played the course and inquired about my position on the list during those 3 years!


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## Slab (Nov 16, 2022)

If a club has 50 people on a waiting list with potential revenue of 50-100k (for example) wouldn't any club appoint someone to manage that list and nurture those people regularly to secure as much of that potential investment as possible 

It'd be crazy not to


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## Imurg (Nov 16, 2022)

I enquired about the 3 of us joining Ellesborough in the December.....went on the waiting list and were able to play the course 6 times between then and the new season (April)
Received an email in the February checking that we still wanted to join....reply sent
Got another email late February informing us of the amount and that as soon as we had paid we would become Full Members with unlimited playing rights.
Fees paid very early March and we got a month's free golf.....well, 3 weeks as the first lockdown arrived but you can't have everything.
Perfect communication.....just the way it should be.


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## IainP (Nov 16, 2022)

A course I had on shortlist just before covid hit, went to a waiting list at the end of summer 2020, contacted me this week saying taking members again.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			2nd def is distinctly different to 1st! And you still haven't answered my question that is fundamental to ownership! Can a member, who you claim to be a part-owner, sell their part of the club they own!
		
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. You're just trolling now.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 17, 2022)

Albo said:



			I’m not though, in the example I mentioned, I am on the wait list and decide to no longer be on said wait list, and as they have not reached out to me in the years I’ve been on the wait list I’ve not bothered to tell them ima member somewhere else and no longer wish to be on the wait list.
Unless and until I join I am not a member, part owner or anything similar, I am a potential member, part owner or as I see myself at the time a potential customer, who, in light of being on a wait list for 3 years with no contact from the club in those 3 years, I’ve decided to join somewhere else and have treat the club with the same contempt as they did with me
		
Click to expand...

We're probably arguing 2 different points tbf. 

I'd agree it's poor, very poor, communication, and as Imurg then shows, it can be done if the club is well run.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			2nd def is distinctly different to 1st! And you still haven't answered my question that is fundamental to ownership! Can a member, who you claim to be a part-owner, sell their part of the club they own!
		
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This would seem to me to be an argument over semantics and sought of see where you are coming from.  But answer me these two:  I consider myself the part owner of my home,  but I'm not free to sell without the permission of the other joint owner and the mortgage provider,  am I part owner?  if you don't have part ownership of a members golf club,  who are the owners?  

Regardless though if you are a member at a members club,  the relationship isn't one of customer/supplier,  which was the point being made originally.


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## Albo (Nov 17, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			This would seem to me to be an argument over semantics and sought of see where you are coming from.  But answer me these two:  I consider myself the part owner of my home,  but I'm not free to sell without the permission of the other joint owner and the mortgage provider,  am I part owner?  if you don't have part ownership of a members golf club,  who are the owners? 

Regardless though if you are a member at a members club,  the relationship isn't one of customer/supplier,  which was the point being made originally.
		
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The last bit of your post is where I don’t either agree or more likely understand.

I am a member of a golf club, I pay my subs each year and in return I get to play when I want / can on a course which is in )hopefully) decent condition. That’s it!  Regardless of my owning part of the club, as discussed that ownership is for all intents and purposes, meaningless, my ownership is worth nothing to me, it won’t grow in value nor is it a saleable asset.  With regards your house analogy above, you are likely a 2 or 3 way owner of that (other half and possibly bank via a mortgage), if you and you alone wanted to sell, you could force that through, may cost you your marriage in the process, but it can be done it is a tangible, saleable asset.  A golf club membership isn’t, unless it’s something akin to Archerfield up here, where you buy a debenture, which is saleable.
I view my membership very much as a customer/supplier relationship. If the condition of the course isn’t good enough for what I’m paying I will have no hesitation about leaving.  I feel no sense of ownership nor obligation to stay anywhere and really am failing to see why anyone would.
As I say it’s likely I’m missing something, won’t be the first nor last time that’s happened, but if someone can educate me on what it is I’m missing I’m all ears, as what’s been suggested doesn’t resonate with me


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2022)

Being a *PART* owner has meaning unless you decide to attach no value or meaning to it.  The Archerfield example is one version of membership value.  If your club decided to fold and sell up, you'd be entitled to a share of the proceeds. There are some famous examples.   Member owned clubs are not maximising profits, so can be more flexible around how they operate... you get a vote in how it operates.  If you are in the minority and don't like, it, you have choices. 

Proprietary clubs, you are a customer/punter that's it.  If you don't like the way it operates, you have no say other than as "customer feedback."

In practice, it might make no difference, or it could be considerable.  Depends on circumstances.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 17, 2022)

Albo said:



			The last bit of your post is where I don’t either agree or more likely understand.

I am a member of a golf club, I pay my subs each year and in return I get to play when I want / can on a course which is in )hopefully) decent condition. That’s it!  Regardless of my owning part of the club, as discussed that ownership is for all intents and purposes, meaningless, my ownership is worth nothing to me, it won’t grow in value nor is it a saleable asset.  With regards your house analogy above, you are likely a 2 or 3 way owner of that (other half and possibly bank via a mortgage), if you and you alone wanted to sell, you could force that through, may cost you your marriage in the process, but it can be done it is a tangible, saleable asset.  A golf club membership isn’t, unless it’s something akin to Archerfield up here, where you buy a debenture, which is saleable.
I view my membership very much as a customer/supplier relationship. If the condition of the course isn’t good enough for what I’m paying I will have no hesitation about leaving.  I feel no sense of ownership nor obligation to stay anywhere and really am failing to see why anyone would.
As I say it’s likely I’m missing something, won’t be the first nor last time that’s happened, but if someone can educate me on what it is I’m missing I’m all ears, as what’s been suggested doesn’t resonate with me
		
Click to expand...

OK, I'll try a new angle regarding being a customer 

You're a customer at M&S, or Aldi, or Arnold Clark. They've been busy lately, car park could do with a weed, would they send out an email to all their customers asking for some volunteers? No, because you're a customer. Would they ask you about what inventory they should stock? No, you're a customer. 

Golf Club ~ You would get such an email, and you'd either go and help, or you wouldn't, but the club is something all members have a responsibility for, you can take part in the decisions of your club, or you let others do all the lifting, but the opportunity is there, because you've paid your membership fees


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## GB72 (Nov 17, 2022)

I think people view golf club membership in many different ways irrespective of the ownership model. Sadly not devoting your life to being a club person is another stick used to beat certain golfers with. 

I will put my hand up and admit that a club membership to me meant little more to me than my gym membership. I enjoyed the course and met some decent acquaintances to play golf with and I chose that word carefully. At the clubs where membership was an option to me, the members were all nice people but I had little in common with them aside from golf and so never really classed them as friends and rarely met outside of playing golf. The clubhouse was to quiet and had a dress code and so did not suit me as a place for a beer and the social side was geared towards people looking for very different things to what I enjoy. Plus, I like to spend time with my wife and friends at weekends. It was a private members club but that made no difference to me,I was a consumer and when I felt I was not getting value I stopped being a consumer. 

I know that to some, club memebership and the life around it is everything to some but there are people, me included, who see a golf club membership in the same way as a gym or any other club membership and nothing more. Now, one day I may find a club that changes that attitude but I have not found one yet.


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## Albo (Nov 17, 2022)

Well the cynic in me suggests that paying for the opportunity it help out may not be in the interests of the many.

Though thanks for the last 2 posters for giving me something to go on.

From what I can see, this is where my lack of wanting to be a part of something probably dilutes any of these benefits for me personally.  If the car park needs weeding, I’d rather pay an extra £5 a year to have someone do it rather than getting my lazy hands dirty. Or moreover go to a new club with a better car park in the first place.  For those who feel they belong at a club, care about and make an effort to integrate, I can see where that might work.  Just not how I use nor view a golf club.
Should the club pack up and sell, I may get a pay off, I hadn’t realised that, though I’m not sure how likely that is ever going to come to pass, certainly not something I’d want to count on.


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## Albo (Nov 17, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think people view golf club membership in many different ways irrespective of the ownership model. Sadly not devoting your life to being a club person is another stick used to beat certain golfers with.

I will put my hand up and admit that a club membership to me meant little more to me than my gym membership. I enjoyed the course and met some decent acquaintances to play golf with and I chose that word carefully. At the clubs where membership was an option to me, the members were all nice people but I had little in common with them aside from golf and so never really classed them as friends and rarely met outside of playing golf. The clubhouse was to quiet and had a dress code and so did not suit me as a place for a beer and the social side was geared towards people looking for very different things to what I enjoy. Plus, I like to spend time with my wife and friends at weekends. It was a private members club but that made no difference to me,I was a consumer and when I felt I was not getting value I stopped being a consumer.

I know that to some, club memebership and the life around it is everything to some but there are people, me included, who see a golf club membership in the same way as a gym or any other club membership and nothing more. Now, one day I may find a club that changes that attitude but I have not found one yet.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, this is pretty much me also. I don’t see my membership as anything more than as you say a gym membership, be that course A, B, or C. I will go where I feel the value for product is best, hence my not understanding the part ownership bit.

This is educating me, so thanks all for that. It may not change me y outlook, but will certainly give me better insight into something I didn’t understand


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 17, 2022)

Ian_George said:



			But not 'part owner' as I don't believe I can sell my portion! I know all the rest and much of it applies to a non-member too! Here's the 1st definition I found 'If you have ownership, you can possess, enjoy, sell, give away, bequeath, destroy, or sell an item of property'! So 'part ownership' means you can sell you can do that to or with your part! Basically, the assertion that someone who pays their sub is a 'part owner' is rubbish!
		
Click to expand...

Of course you’re an owner. If you all wished to and voted to do so, you could sell your club to a property developer.

You just are not issued a transferable share or a portion of the land - so there is nothing to sell. Your membership provides you with voting power.


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## Neilds (Nov 17, 2022)

If you are a part owner of a golf club, why do you have to pay to play there?


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 17, 2022)

Neilds said:



			If you are a part owner of a golf club, why do you have to pay to play there?  

Click to expand...

If you are an owner of a business, why do you have to pay costs incurred by the operation of said business?

Edit: a friend once told me about a bloke who joined up all the local snooker clubs in the area. Cheap as chips to join a snooker club, they struggle for members and they are member owned.

Naturally, property developers were all over clubs like this because their little run down venues were often prime locations and targets for development. He exercised his voting power in favour of selling, at every opportunity, and due to dwindling support for snooker clubs, and many others seeing the same opportunity as this chap, the sales were often approved.

He made a bucket load of cash, supposedly from his share of the sale proceeds. It’s one of those stories that I don’t know if it’s true though.


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## SurreyGolfer (Nov 17, 2022)

Price rises of 6-8% at my club, 7 day membership going from £155 pcm to £165 pcm. Flexible membership unchanged.

Feels relatively restrained given the course and clubhouse investment as well as the macroeconomic climate


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2022)

Neilds said:



			If you are a part owner of a golf club, why do you have to pay to play there?  

Click to expand...

I've paid off my mortgage,  but I still get bills!


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## Slab (Nov 18, 2022)

With the odd exception like Wimbledon I view membership at a members club the same as membership at a proprietory club, but at a members club you have the added responsibility of also being part of a group that (should) act as custodians of the club and course for the current membership and immediate next generation of members

Until the rare occasion of a sale etc takes place, membership of a members club isn't really ownership anymore than a proprietory club, with the above caveat


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## backwoodsman (Nov 21, 2022)

Just had our renewal notice for next year's subs - applicable from 1 Jan. Pleasantly surprised to learn they are increasing only by 3% - still means a rise of £60pa but it could have been worse. (Seems our energy prices are fixed till end 2023 so will be interesting to know what happens next year).


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

Neilds said:



			If you are a part owner of a golf club, why do you have to pay to play there?  

Click to expand...

If I was a part owner of a club I'd expect to be able to change my shoes in the car park


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## OnTour (Nov 22, 2022)

That's a great reply, pretty much how I feel. Once I'm bored with the place I'm off especially after getting done over when joining just before a COVID break and getting nothing in return (still gripes me) 

month by month agreements should be law (said me) or even 3 months breakaway option. 




GB72 said:



			I think people view golf club membership in many different ways irrespective of the ownership model. Sadly not devoting your life to being a club person is another stick used to beat certain golfers with.

I will put my hand up and admit that a club membership to me meant little more to me than my gym membership. I enjoyed the course and met some decent acquaintances to play golf with and I chose that word carefully. At the clubs where membership was an option to me, the members were all nice people but I had little in common with them aside from golf and so never really classed them as friends and rarely met outside of playing golf. The clubhouse was to quiet and had a dress code and so did not suit me as a place for a beer and the social side was geared towards people looking for very different things to what I enjoy. Plus, I like to spend time with my wife and friends at weekends. It was a private members club but that made no difference to me,I was a consumer and when I felt I was not getting value I stopped being a consumer.

I know that to some, club memebership and the life around it is everything to some but there are people, me included, who see a golf club membership in the same way as a gym or any other club membership and nothing more. Now, one day I may find a club that changes that attitude but I have not found one yet.
		
Click to expand...


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think people view golf club membership in many different ways irrespective of the ownership model. Sadly not devoting your life to being a club person is another stick used to beat certain golfers with.

I will put my hand up and admit that a club membership to me meant little more to me than my gym membership. I enjoyed the course and met some decent acquaintances to play golf with and I chose that word carefully. At the clubs where membership was an option to me, the members were all nice people but I had little in common with them aside from golf and so never really classed them as friends and rarely met outside of playing golf. The clubhouse was to quiet and had a dress code and so did not suit me as a place for a beer and the social side was geared towards people looking for very different things to what I enjoy. Plus, I like to spend time with my wife and friends at weekends. It was a private members club but that made no difference to me,I was a consumer and when I felt I was not getting value I stopped being a consumer.

I know that to some, club memebership and the life around it is everything to some but there are people, me included, who see a golf club membership in the same way as a gym or any other club membership and nothing more. Now, one day I may find a club that changes that attitude but I have not found one yet.
		
Click to expand...

Yeh, couldn't have wrote that better myself


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yeh, couldn't have wrote that better myself
		
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You could have missed out the couple of typos, spelling errors and gramattical slip ups


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			You could have missed out the couple of typos, spelling errors and gramattical slip ups

Click to expand...

I didn't notice them so maybe you're wrong there 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2022)

It inevitably came up at the AGM a fortnight ago. The club were very open and honest about the state of the accounts for the year and what the planned additional fuel costs are expected to be as our fixed term expires in December. They haven't decided on a final figure for the annual subs yet but they are trying to cap it at 5% maximum but at this moment they haven't guaranteed that. I'll see what that comes out at per month and decide on my options.


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## 4LEX (Nov 24, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I enquired about the 3 of us joining Ellesborough in the December.....went on the waiting list and were able to play the course 6 times between then and the new season (April)
Received an email in the February checking that we still wanted to join....reply sent
Got another email late February informing us of the amount and that as soon as we had paid we would become Full Members with unlimited playing rights.
Fees paid very early March and we got a month's free golf.....well, 3 weeks as the first lockdown arrived but you can't have everything.
Perfect communication.....just the way it should be.
		
Click to expand...


Always liked the look of it when I used to drive past to an ex's in Wendover!


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## sunshine (Nov 24, 2022)

hovis said:



			If I was a part owner of a club I'd expect to be able to change my shoes in the car park
		
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Surely the appropriate response if challenged is I’m a part owner of this club and I’ll change my shoes in the part of the car park I part own 🤣


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Surely the appropriate response if challenged is I’m a part owner of this club and I’ll change my shoes in the part of the car park I part own 🤣
		
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The way things are going club car parks will be sold off to NCP.
They will charge you to park there , so changing shoes won’t be a problem !


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## Oddsocks (Nov 24, 2022)

OnTour said:



			That's a great reply, pretty much how I feel. Once I'm bored with the place I'm off especially after getting done over when joining just before a COVID break and getting nothing in return (still gripes me)

month by month agreements should be law (said me) or even 3 months breakaway option.
		
Click to expand...

Most clubs near me will offer a 6 month break on medical ground in which case they role the credit to the following years membership renewal, good way of retaining members for both the current and following year.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			The way things are going club car parks will be sold off to NCP.
They will charge you to park there , so changing shoes won’t be a problem !
		
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Maybe that’s the way around slow play. Franchise to a managed parking company and offer 6hours free.  This will include pre round snacks, a slow round and a pint after.  If you want two pints play quicker damit!!!!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Maybe that’s the way around slow play. Franchise to a managed parking company and offer 6hours free.  This will include pre round snacks, a slow round and a pint after.  If you want two pints play quicker damit!!!!
		
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Good idea but I would make it five hours.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Good idea but I would make it five hours.
		
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Breakfast pre round 45mins-1hr
Round of golf 4hr
Post round waffle 1hr

More waffle means faster golf required!


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## patricks148 (Nov 24, 2022)

Just had the Agm report though, up to £1050, seniors and 30 to 35 abolished.. joining fee raised and reinstated, £1000. I'd suspect the 100 or so guys we had join the under 35 cat will all get gone at renewal as they were paying less than half price and no joining fee.  Might actually go to the agm this year.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Just had the Agm report though, up to £1050, seniors and 30 to 35 abolished.. joining fee raised and reinstated, £1000. I'd suspect the 100 or so guys we had join the under 35 cat will all get gone at renewal as they were paying less than half price and no joining fee.  Might actually go to the agm this year.
		
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Can I ask what the subs went up to £1050 from please Patrick?


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## KenL (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Just had the Agm report though, up to £1050, seniors and 30 to 35 abolished.. joining fee raised and reinstated, £1000. I'd suspect the 100 or so guys we had join the under 35 cat will all get gone at renewal as they were paying less than half price and no joining fee.  Might actually go to the agm this year.
		
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Seniors (reduction I assume) abolished, wonder how that will go down?


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## banjofred (Nov 24, 2022)

KenL said:



			Seniors (reduction I assume) abolished, wonder how that will go down?
		
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I've never understood why people who work for NHS, Police etc get big reductions in things like gym fees......seniors, same thing.


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## KenL (Nov 24, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I've never understood why people who work for NHS, Police etc get big reductions in things like gym fees......seniors, same thing.
		
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I don't think small discounts for hard working public servants is anything like giving well off retired folk a reduction on their golf fees when they play more than any other members.


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## patricks148 (Nov 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I ask what the subs went up to £1050 from please Patrick?
		
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I think it was £830 from memory, but that does include a £50 bar tab, so in reality its not that much of a raise when that's taken into account


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## KenL (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I think it was £830 from memory, but that does include a £50 bar tab, so in reality its not that much of a raise when that's taken into account
		
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Oh yes it is!


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## Crazyface (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I think it was £830 from memory, but that does include a £50 bar tab, so in reality its not that much of a raise when that's taken into account
		
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Percent wise it is (ignoring the bar tab)


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## patricks148 (Nov 24, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Percent wise it is (ignoring the bar tab)
		
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Maybe but far better than the £1500 they wanted and tried to get last year.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I think it was £830 from memory, but that does include a £50 bar tab, so in reality its not that much of a raise when that's taken into account
		
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Taking the bar tab off and making it a round thousand, that's about a 20% rise.


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## patricks148 (Nov 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Taking the bar tab off and making it a round thousand, that's about a 20% rise.
		
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Most won't be happy, but the removal of the under 35  section will placate  the majority I suspect.


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## KenL (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Maybe but far better than the £1500 they wanted and tried to get last year.
		
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Is your course not heavily funded by visitor fees?
If it is, and tricky to get a tee time, then membership should be reasonable.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Most won't be happy, but the removal of the under 35  section will placate  the majority I suspect.
		
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If they lose that 100 in the 30-35 discounted category and replace it with 100 full paying members plus joining fee, the club will be financially much better off.  A few seniors may also walk which will only benefit the club financial further.

Sounds like a good business move, short term pain but long term gain.


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## evemccc (Nov 24, 2022)

So pre-2020 and the ‘Covid golf boom’, green fees were much cheaper than today, open comp entries were much cheaper and membership was cheaper, with often many offers to seek new members

But —- since the ‘golf boom’, many clubs re-introduced entrance fees, waiting lists came (back) into existence and were then often closed to hopeful wannabe members, green fees went through the roof….the average golfer was not benefiting

Now, as clubs face possibly a tough time ahead, members are having to fork out a load more money in subs, and lots more than ever before if they want to have an ‘away day’

Seems like the average golfer doesn’t win whatever happens 😬🤷‍♂️


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## banjofred (Nov 25, 2022)

KenL said:



			I don't think small discounts for hard working public servants is anything like giving well off retired folk a reduction on their golf fees when they play more than any other members.
		
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Why should certain workers get discounts, but not others? Well off retired folk?.....some are, some aren't....just like the rest of the population.


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## KenL (Nov 25, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Why should certain workers get discounts, but not others? Well off retired folk?.....some are, some aren't....just like the rest of the population.
		
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For the small amount of places that offer a discount to NHS workers, it is probably just a marketing ploy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2022)

My (members) club is in the process of deciding what to do about our ageing and rather limited clubhouse.  Nothing was off the table.  All options considered. Impacts on members assessed - risk, cost and disruption etc. during any refurb/build and ongoing impact on membership in respect of paying for it, risk to financial stability, predictions on future membership and subs etc.

So VERY significant decision to be made.

So who makes it?  We the members do.  Special meeting called for board (members) to present why we need to do something and risks of not doing anything, then present the findings of a long period of working through options with planning, architects, interior designers, financing to lay out the options and make recommendations to membership.  Feedback called for, summarised and provided back to us. And we - the members - are now voting on whether or not we accept the board recommendation.

We could say No.  And if we did then the recommendation would be shelved and we’d go back to the drawing board.  Nothing will be imposed.

But whatever decision is made it is the members who will make it and so it is the members who will OWN the decision and all that might subsequently happen in respect of, such as, any need to increase membership numbers and membership costs.

For me, in a members club this is what ownership means, and it’s nothing at all to do with whether or not I can sell my share.


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## banjofred (Nov 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My (members) club is in the process of deciding what to do about our ageing and rather limited clubhouse.  Nothing was off the table.  All options considered. Impacts on members assessed - risk, cost and disruption etc. during any refurb/build and ongoing impact on membership in respect of paying for it, risk to financial stability, predictions on future membership and subs etc.

So VERY significant decision to be made.

So who makes it?  We the members do.  Special meeting called for board (members) to present findings of a long period of working through options with planning, architects, interior designers, financing to lay out the options and make recommendations to membership.  Feedback called for, summarised and provided back to us. And we - the members - are now voting on whether or not we accept the board recommendation.

We could say No.  And if we did then the recommendation would be shelved and we’d go back to the drawing board.  Nothing will be imposed.

But whatever decision is made it is the members who will make it and so it is the members who will OWN the decision and all that might subsequently happen in respect of, such as, any need to increase membership numbers and membership costs.

For me, in a members club this is what ownership means.
		
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One of the reasons I left my last club was because of decisions that had big consequences for the members were being made without input. The input eventually started to happen, but only after a LOT of people started demanding to know what was going on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2022)

banjofred said:



			One of the reasons I left my last club was because of decisions that had big consequences for the members were being made without input. The input eventually started to happen, but only after a LOT of people started demanding to know what was going on.
		
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I think it’s important for the board of a members club to appreciate that while some decisions they have to make may appear relatively insignificant and therefore within their remit to decide with minimal recourse to the views of the membership, some of these decisions may well feel very important to some members.

It’s just the nature of us humans. We all take slightly different views on what is important and significant, and what is not.  It’s a tricky balancing act because a membership elects members to a board to make decisions on behalf of the membership as well as looking after the best interests of the club and the membership.  And sometimes a board will get that wrong. Transparency, clarity and openness about the decision making remains key.  I believe that my club and board try very hard on that, but still of course members will moan and bicker.  And that’s fine, because that’s life - and it indicates that the membership cares about their club.


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## Albo (Nov 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My (members) club is in the process of deciding what to do about our ageing and rather limited clubhouse.  Nothing was off the table.  All options considered. Impacts on members assessed - risk, cost and disruption etc. during any refurb/build and ongoing impact on membership in respect of paying for it, risk to financial stability, predictions on future membership and subs etc.

So VERY significant decision to be made.

So who makes it?  We the members do.  Special meeting called for board (members) to present why we need to do something and risks of not doing anything, then present the findings of a long period of working through options with planning, architects, interior designers, financing to lay out the options and make recommendations to membership.  Feedback called for, summarised and provided back to us. And we - the members - are now voting on whether or not we accept the board recommendation.

We could say No.  And if we did then the recommendation would be shelved and we’d go back to the drawing board.  Nothing will be imposed.

But whatever decision is made it is the members who will make it and so it is the members who will OWN the decision and all that might subsequently happen in respect of, such as, any need to increase membership numbers and membership costs.

For me, in a members club this is what ownership means, and it’s nothing at all to do with whether or not I can sell my share.
		
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I can totally see that.  I am seeing that to some people that sort of side to their membership means a lot and will give them, as you say, ownership of the outcome. 
From my own point of view, I don’t think I’d get involved or even vote on the outcome. I’m just not personally invested enough in the whole thing.
If I didn’t like the net outcome of whatever decision were made my vote would be with my feet.
I am A member of a golf club for the 18 holes, if I feel the price I am paying for the condition and access I get to those 18 holes is worth the money they want each year then I’ll stay a member, if that balance tips for any reason I’ll walk to the next place.
Being able to vote on the outcome of matters such as that doesn’t add any value for me personally.
But stories like that help my understanding of what a members club is and when we talk about ownership what that means. So thank you


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## D-S (Nov 25, 2022)

Our electricity price is fixed until September, quotes so far for a one year fix for the next 12 months are 60k higher.


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## KenL (Nov 26, 2022)

Ours is going up £35, that's 5%.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2022)

KenL said:



			Ours is going up £35, that's 5%.
		
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…and £35 would be 2% for me.  Now your £35 will be worth the same as my £35 and so when looking at membership increases I feel we should be quoting money not %.

If my subs went up 5% that would be an extra £90+ I’d have to find.  And they’d be getting awfully close to the £2k mark…

Hopefully as energy cost increases will be the same for all clubs across the country the ££ increases to subs to cover should be the same.


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## evemccc (Nov 26, 2022)

KenL said:



			Ours is going up £35, that's 5%.
		
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That’s some deal you’ve got to play there


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and £35 would be 2% for me.  Now your £35 will be worth the same as my £35 and so when looking at membership increases *I feel we should be quoting money not %.*

If my subs went up 5% that would be an extra £90+ I’d have to find.  And they’d be getting awfully close to the £2k mark…

Hopefully as energy cost increases will be the same for all clubs across the country the ££ increases to subs to cover should be the same.
		
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 + club and area.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and £35 would be 2% for me.  Now your £35 will be worth the same as my £35 and so when looking at membership increases I feel we should be quoting money not %.

If my subs went up 5% that would be an extra £90+ I’d have to find.  And they’d be getting awfully close to the £2k mark…

Hopefully as energy cost increases will be the same for all clubs across the country the ££ increases to subs to cover should be the same.
		
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Surely any energy cost increases for clubs will be a similar percentage, not a similar £.  Just like households clubs will have different energy requirements and therefore increases will be a percentage of that need.  Perhaps I am missing something there.

Additionally, energy prices are not the only golf club expense that is rising,  fertiliser costs are up around 25% from a year ago,  and it is increasingly difficult to attract staff so those costs will also be on the rise.  Again £ costs will be linked to need so will be a similar percentage across clubs and not £.


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I've never understood why people who work for NHS, Police etc get big reductions in things like gym fees......seniors, same thing.
		
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Big reductions?  I've been a fire fighter for 16 years and I've yet to see these big reductions.  10% is standard but even then its only on "full price goods".   Dominos pizza is probably our biggest friend 🍕😜.  
As for why?  I think it makes the company look like they care and it gets the business of all the health services and emergency sector.


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			Big reductions?  I've been a fire fighter for 16 years and I've yet to see these big reductions.  10% is standard but even then its only on "full price goods".   Dominos pizza is probably our biggest friend 🍕😜. 
As for why?  I think it makes the company look like they care and it gets the business of all the health services and emergency sector.
		
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But again.....why only for "some" people? I'm thinking about joining a gym near the golf course....about £100 a month. I consider a 10% discount from that to be a pretty big reduction. Not amazing.....but a decent amount of money. Why can't the cashier at Asda get that discount?


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			But again.....why only for "some" people? I'm thinking about joining a gym near the golf course....about £100 a month. I consider a 10% discount from that to be a pretty big reduction. Not amazing.....but a decent amount of money. Why can't the cashier at Asda get that discount?
		
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They could, if the company (Asda in your eg) bothered their arse about staff benefits and doing deals with companies such as gym owners. But they don't, cos they're corporate thieving bassas


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Surely any energy cost increases for clubs will be a similar percentage, not a similar £. .
		
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Correct, hence rises shown should be in pounds, as the bottom line will be different depending on the cost base of the club, which is what SILH has said


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			But again.....why only for "some" people? I'm thinking about joining a gym near the golf course....about £100 a month. I consider a 10% discount from that to be a pretty big reduction. Not amazing.....but a decent amount of money. Why can't the cashier at Asda get that discount?
		
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surely it’s nice and easy to understand 

A lot of the people that get discounts are people who are either 

Saving lives or protecting lives and businesses think that they maybe should get small rewards for a job that at times doesn’t pay a great deal 

Military 
Police 
Nurses
Fireman 
RNLI 

Etc 

They are guys and girls doing a very public service


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 26, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Correct, hence rises shown should be in pounds, as the bottom line will be different depending on the cost base of the club, which is what SILH has said
		
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That's not how I read it,  His last sentence says that increases in subs should be the same in £ across the board. If costs go up in % then I would expect subs to go up in %.


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			They could, if the company (Asda in your eg) bothered their arse about staff benefits and doing deals with companies such as gym owners. But they don't, cos they're corporate thieving bassas
		
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I used to get the occasional discount....I worked for the US Dept of Defense (civilian) and had a military ID card, so was able to get reduced motel fees etc. There was no good reason for me to have this benefit....I did use it once in a while....but always just shook my head and wondered why. 



Liverpoolphil said:



			surely it’s nice and easy to understand

A lot of the people that get discounts are people who are either

Saving lives or protecting lives and businesses think that they maybe should get small rewards for a job that at times doesn’t pay a great deal

Military
Police
Nurses
Fireman
RNLI

Etc

They are guys and girls doing a very public service
		
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They are getting paid for doing their jobs. Some of these people are paid pretty decently, some not so much.....but basically you *choose* to do these jobs. Again.....why is someone who works at Asda (or zillions of other *necessary* jobs) not getting discounts? Yes, I do understand that some large companies arrange deals with public businesses....I get that....I don't always agree with it, but I understand how it works. Actually, I'm more wondering why *anybody* should get discounts just for working. You disagree......I can live with that. I hope you can accept the fact that I don't agree with that and that doesn't necessarily make me wrong......I don't think you are wrong for thinking it is fine to give these discounts. I just think they are unfair.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I used to get the occasional discount....I worked for the US Dept of Defense (civilian) and had a military ID card, so was able to get reduced motel fees etc. There was no good reason for me to have this benefit....I did use it once in a while....but always just shook my head and wondered why.


They are getting paid for doing their jobs. Some of these people are paid pretty decently, some not so much.....but basically you *choose* to do these jobs. Again.....why is someone who works at Asda (or zillions of other *necessary* jobs) not getting discounts? Yes, I do understand that some large companies arrange deals with public businesses....I get that....I don't always agree with it, but I understand how it works. Actually, I'm more wondering why *anybody* should get discounts just for working. You disagree......I can live with that. I hope you can accept the fact that I don't agree with that and that doesn't necessarily make me wrong......I don't think you are wrong for thinking it is fine to give these discounts. I just think they are unfair.
		
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Surely you can see the difference why people will look to give something extra to people who put their lives on the line for us all 🤷‍♂️


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			But again.....why only for "some" people? I'm thinking about joining a gym near the golf course....about £100 a month. I consider a 10% discount from that to be a pretty big reduction. Not amazing.....but a decent amount of money. Why can't the cashier at Asda get that discount?
		
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£100 a month!!!! If you've got the money to spend a £100 a month on a gym then you don't need a discount.  On my salary I can only afford my £22 a month membership.  Perhaps the answer to your question is in plain sight  🤷‍♂️


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I used to get the occasional discount....I worked for the US Dept of Defense (civilian) and had a military ID card, so was able to get reduced motel fees etc. There was no good reason for me to have this benefit....I did use it once in a while....but always just shook my head and wondered why.


They are getting paid for doing their jobs. Some of these people are paid pretty decently, some not so much.....but basically you *choose* to do these jobs. Again.....why is someone who works at Asda (or zillions of other *necessary* jobs) not getting discounts? Yes, I do understand that some large companies arrange deals with public businesses....I get that....I don't always agree with it, but I understand how it works. Actually, I'm more wondering why *anybody* should get discounts just for working. You disagree......I can live with that. I hope you can accept the fact that I don't agree with that and that doesn't necessarily make me wrong......I don't think you are wrong for thinking it is fine to give these discounts. I just think they are unfair.
		
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You're reading a lot into it.  It's just a thank you thats all.  A thank you for walking across a field in Afghanistan next to IED'S for 25k a year.  A thank you for running into a burning building when people are running out.   Yes it's our "choice" but there's nothing wrong with a token guesture.    Do you begrudge a waiter getting a tip?  Why don't I get a tip for cutting a person out of a car?.
The guys I manage put themselves at risk to make sure people like you are safe.  Sure we get paid but people who do these jobs listed by LiverpoolPhil very seldomly do it for a the money.
The emergency services are in an utter state and the money is now so low thats its struggling to attract the right sort of person.  Anything that can make these jobs appealing and make the staff feel appreciated is a good thing at the moment.


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			You're reading a lot into it.  It's just a thank you thats all.  A thank you for walking across a field in Afghanistan next to IED'S for 25k a year.  A thank you for running into a burning building when people are running out.   Yes it's our "choice" but there's nothing wrong with a token guesture.    Do you begrudge a waiter getting a tip?  Why don't I get a tip for cutting a person out of a car?.
The guys I manage put themselves at risk to make sure people like you are safe.  Sure we get paid but people who do these jobs listed by LiverpoolPhil very seldomly do it for a the money.
The emergency services are in an utter state and the money is now so low thats its struggling to attract the right sort of person.  Anything that can make these jobs appealing and make the staff feel appreciated is a good thing at the moment.
		
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You have read my meaning in the posts completely wrong....

Evidently I'm explaining myself badly (normal)......I'm not against somebody getting something like a 10% discount at a gym (although I do wonder why anybody gets them).....I'm against somebody getting one while other deserving people don't. Is a cashier deserving? Is a fireman/woman deserving? Military? Where is the cut off for getting these extra's? Politicians? The garbage folks? 

Do YOU think that a cashier who puts up with all kinds of crap (and low pay) deserves something like a gym discount? I do. More so than a fireman in my opinion.


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			£100 a month!!!! If you've got the money to spend a £100 a month on a gym then you don't need a discount.  On my salary I can only afford my £22 a month membership.  Perhaps the answer to your question is in plain sight  🤷‍♂️
		
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Nowhere have I said I needed a discount. Where did you come up with this line of thinking?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			surely it’s nice and easy to understand

A lot of the people that get discounts are people who are either

Saving lives or protecting lives and businesses think that they maybe should get small rewards for a job that at times doesn’t pay a great deal

Military
Police
Nurses
Fireman
RNLI

Etc

They are guys and girls doing a very public service
		
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And getting paid for it! They aren’t (in most cases) doing it for free out of the goodness of their heart.


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			And getting paid for it! They aren’t (in most cases) doing it for free out of the goodness of their heart.
		
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You need to sit down and meet a few nurses and paramedics.  A lot of them are doing it out of kindness and goodness in of their heart.  Paramedics specifically are a special breed are person.  They put there skills to good use and they get the bonus of being paid for it.  I know countless amounts of them that can leave to the private sector and double their wage.  They stay for a reason (and it definitely isn't the money). People just don't like someone getting something they don't.

Not all people are financially driven


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			You need to sit down and meet a few nurses and paramedics.  A lot of them are doing it out of kindness and goodness in of their heart.  Paramedics specifically are a special breed are person.  They put there skills to good use and they get the bonus of being paid for it.  I know countless amounts of them that can leave to the private sector and double their wage.  They stay for a reason (and it definitely isn't the money). People just don't like someone getting something they don't.

Not all people are financially driven
		
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I noticed you haven't actually answered the questions that I asked you to answer.......

My step-daughter is a band 6 Blood and Transplant nurse that travels over quite a bit of Yorkshire doing her job.....I think I get plenty of info.


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I noticed you haven't actually answered the questions that I asked you to answer.......

My step-daughter is a band 6 Blood and Transplant nurse that travels over quite a bit of Yorkshire doing her job.....I think I get plenty of info.
		
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Sorry. I'm getting confused here.  Have I replied to the wrong person?  I wasn't saying you should sit down with anyone and if you did say the same comment as "Bimguy". Then I'd expect you to know better about the inner thoughts and drive of a nurse


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Nowhere have I said I needed a discount. Where did you come up with this line of thinking?
		
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You said a £10 discount off a £100 membership would be nice.  I'm saying if you are paying that for a gym then £10 isn't important to you.  If it is then you need to think about your gym choices.  An adsa employee isn't spending that on a gym.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			You have read my meaning in the posts completely wrong....

Evidently I'm explaining myself badly (normal)......I'm not against somebody getting something like a 10% discount at a gym (although I do wonder why anybody gets them).....I'm against somebody getting one while other deserving people don't. Is a cashier deserving? Is a fireman/woman deserving? Military? Where is the cut off for getting these extra's? Politicians? The garbage folks?

Do YOU think that a cashier who puts up with all kinds of crap (and low pay) deserves something like a gym discount? I do. More so than a fireman in my opinion.
		
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So someone who is on a till is more deserving of discount than someone who risks their lives saving others 🧐

So putting up with someone complaining is more deserving than someone putting up with fire 🤔



BiMGuy said:



			And getting paid for it! They aren’t (in most cases) doing it for free out of the goodness of their heart.
		
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I don’t think anyone suggested they are but many doing the job aren’t doing it for any money motivation 

These guys and girls don’t ask for any special treatment so when someone gives them discounts etc then it’s coming from a good place


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So someone who is on a till is more deserving of discount than someone who risks their lives saving others 🧐

So putting up with someone complaining is more deserving than someone putting up with fire 🤔



I don’t think anyone suggested they are but many doing the job aren’t doing it for any money motivation

These guys and girls don’t ask for any special treatment so when someone gives them discounts etc then it’s coming from a good place
		
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I should have just wrote the same.  Would have saved me some time 😂


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 26, 2022)

The wife has a blue light card, get's discount on some things but not many. She works in Social Services - again, these people (especially the social workers on the front line) have an incredibly difficult job.

Hopefully it gets me a bit of discount on my LIV tickets next year ;-)


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So someone who is on a till is more deserving of discount than someone who risks their lives saving others 🧐

So putting up with someone complaining is more deserving than someone putting up with fire 🤔



I don’t think anyone suggested they are but many doing the job aren’t doing it for any money motivation

These guys and girls don’t ask for any special treatment so when someone gives them discounts etc then it’s coming from a good place
		
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As usual.....you are in na-na land......making up your own view points. 

Again......and again.......I'll ask this really simply so you hopefully understand. Do you think a cashier at a major grocery store (pick your own) deserves a discount at (pick your organization...gym, pub, whatever)? Will you please answer the question instead of going off on something I haven't even hinted at? 

I have not stated that firemen don't deserve a discount (although I don't think anybody should get one....so I guess I am saying firemen don't deserve discounts). I have only stated that it is unfair for some people to get discounts, and other hard working people do not get discounts. 

If you think hard working people deserve discounts at stores/gyms etc.....here is my list of the people who should get them
*Everybody who works hard. **Not just certain special people**. *


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The wife has a blue light card, get's discount on some things but not many. She works in Social Services - again, these people (especially the social workers on the front line) have an incredibly difficult job.

Hopefully it gets me a bit of discount on my LIV tickets next year ;-)
		
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I bet if you she doesn't do it "for the money".  Not many people have a genuine desire to do good in the community.  I don't get why some people don't like the idea of giving these people a free burger with an order over £5 😂


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			As usual.....you are in na-na land......making up your own view points.

Again......and again.......I'll ask this really simply so you hopefully understand. Do you think a cashier at a major grocery store (pick your own) deserves a discount at (pick your organization...gym, pub, whatever)? Will you please answer the question instead of going off on something I haven't even hinted at?

I have not stated that firemen don't deserve a discount (although I don't think anybody should get one....so I guess I am saying firemen don't deserve discounts). I have only stated that it is unfair for some people to get discounts, and other hard working people do not get discounts.

If you think hard working people deserve discounts at stores/gyms etc.....here is my list of the people who should get them
*Everybody who works hard. **Not just certain special people. *

Click to expand...

Phil is making perfect sense to me.  An employee at asda is there for one reason and that's "money".  Why reward that?  Isn't a member of the armed forces more deserving than an adsa employee?  I personally think so.  Even as a fire fighter I would give a returning service member the shirt of my back for job they do.   I'm not being shot at for 25k.  Stuff that.


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## Mel Smooth (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			I bet if you she doesn't do it "for the money".  Not many people have a genuine desire to do good in the community.  I don't get why some people don't like the idea of giving these people a free burger with an order over £5 😂
		
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The money is crap, she’s business support so it’s not much above the minimum wage. The social workers are paid ok, and if you work for an agency it is decent money, but even then, you have to want to do that kind of work. She’s in child services, they are literally trying to stop children dying through neglect or mistreatment- some pretty big calls have to be made.


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The money is crap, she’s business support so it’s not much above the minimum wage. The social workers are paid ok, and if you work for an agency it is decent money, but even then, you have to want to do that kind of work. She’s in child services, they are literally trying to stop children dying through neglect or mistreatment- some pretty big calls have to be made.
		
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My golf partners daughter has just left the job after 3 years in child services.  He said she was crying every night with the feeling of being helpless.  No free burger for her though!!!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			As usual.....you are in na-na land......making up your own view points.

Again......and again.......I'll ask this really simply so you hopefully understand. Do you think a cashier at a major grocery store (pick your own) deserves a discount at (pick your organization...gym, pub, whatever)? Will you please answer the question instead of going off on something I haven't even hinted at?

I have not stated that firemen don't deserve a discount (although I don't think anybody should get one....so I guess I am saying firemen don't deserve discounts). I have only stated that it is unfair for some people to get discounts, and other hard working people do not get discounts.

If you think hard working people deserve discounts at stores/gyms etc.....here is my list of the people who should get them
*Everybody who works hard. **Not just certain special people. *

Click to expand...

🤦‍♂️

Do you even understand what you’re saying

It’s not about people “working hard” - people don’t get discounts from place because they “work hard” - they get discounts because of the work they do

People who protect, save your life if the occasions arose , people that save lives of everyone , people that try to keep the UK a safer place- that’s why someone people get given discounts - it’s about what they do not how hard they do it 

So do I think someone deserves discounts for working a till - no , do I think someone deserves discounts for running into a burning building to save a child - yes


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## SteveW86 (Nov 26, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			The wife has a blue light card, get's discount on some things but not many. She works in Social Services - again, these people (especially the social workers on the front line) have an incredibly difficult job.

Hopefully it gets me a bit of discount on my LIV tickets next year ;-)
		
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Do you need discount on something they give away for free? 😜


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Do you need discount on something they give away for free? 😜
		
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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

Do you even understand what you’re saying

It’s not about people “working hard” - people don’t get discounts from place because they “work hard” - they get discounts because of the work they do

People who protect, save your life if the occasions arose , people that save lives of everyone , people that try to keep the UK a safer place- that’s why someone people get given discounts - it’s about what they do not how hard they do it

So do I think someone deserves discounts for working a till - no , do I think someone deserves discounts for running into a burning building to save a child - yes
		
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P,enty of people in the NHS, Forces and emergency services have access to the discounts and never leave their desks..
Just saying......


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			P,enty of people in the NHS, Forces and emergency services have access to the discounts and never leave their desks..
Just saying......
		
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Some of the ex ones never leave this forum 🙄🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			P,enty of people in the NHS, Forces and emergency services have access to the discounts and never leave their desks..
Just saying......
		
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🙄 yes a very small percentage and certainly very small in the military 



pauljames87 said:



			Some of the ex ones never leave this forum 🙄🤣
		
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guess you must have lots of time with all the striking causing the country hell crying over your huge wages not being enough whilst the countries struggles.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

All for the blue light card system for various things .. nice little thank you 

Think this whole situation boils down to the rebranding of "key workers" under covid 

Lockdown 1.. basically your usual key workers .. essential workers .. including food industry as people need it 

Lockdown 2 builders are key, as are dog walkers to enable key workers to get to work 

Lockdown 3 if you have ever been in a hospital your a key worker 

Emergency services should defo get a discount , just a little thanks 

Doesn't mean an Asda man doesn't work hard


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			guess you must have lots of time with all the striking causing the country hell crying over your huge wages not being enough whilst the countries struggles.
		
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Just a small point Mr Phillip, Lu haven't been on strike as much as national rail, and our strikes are about pensions not about pay 

However another minor point my union hasn't been on strike so been keeping London moving 

But hey 👋 bravo for assuming it's all about you ..


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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2022)

The liklihood is that an Asda worker will get a reasonable discount on their Asda shopping as well as any affiliated businesses.
Not as extensive as NHS etc but.......


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The liklihood is that an Asda worker will get a reasonable discount on their Asda shopping as well as any affiliated businesses.
Not as extensive as NHS etc but.......
		
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A very good point. Normally a good reward aswell as food is a key cost in life 

Everyone gets little perks in life (for now) but the blue light system is a nice little thank you 

Wouldn't surprise me if it was tax deductible tho.


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## KenL (Nov 26, 2022)

Mods - can we have this moved back onto membership increases?
Thanks


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			You said a £10 discount off a £100 membership would be nice.  I'm saying if you are paying that for a gym then £10 isn't important to you.  If it is then you need to think about your gym choices.  An adsa employee isn't spending that on a gym.
		
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No....you said....
£100 a month!!!! If you've got the money to spend a £100 a month on a gym then you don't need a discount.  On my salary I can only afford my £22 a month membership.  Perhaps the answer to your question is in plain sight  🤷‍♂️ 
You tend to not answer the question your are asked. I stated I did not need a discount, nor asked for one. 

As a retired school teacher, I saved my money.....I have enough to live comfortably on.


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			No....you said....
£100 a month!!!! If you've got the money to spend a £100 a month on a gym then you don't need a discount.  On my salary I can only afford my £22 a month membership.  Perhaps the answer to your question is in plain sight  🤷‍♂️ 
You tend to not answer the question your are asked. I stated I did not need a discount, nor asked for one. 

As a retired school teacher, I saved my money.....I have enough to live comfortably on. 

Click to expand...

Whatever then mate. I've just read what I wrote in red (in my mind) I've answered the question.


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			Whatever then mate. I've just read what I wrote in red (in my mind) I've answered the question.
		
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Yet...you didn't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

Do you even understand what you’re saying

It’s not about people “working hard” - people don’t get discounts from place because they “work hard” - they get discounts because of the work they do

People who protect, save your life if the occasions arose , people that save lives of everyone , people that try to keep the UK a safer place- that’s why someone people get given discounts - it’s about what they do not how hard they do it

So do I think someone deserves discounts for working a till - no , do I think someone deserves discounts for running into a burning building to save a child - yes
		
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banjofred said:



			Do YOU think that a cashier who puts up with all kinds of crap (and low pay) deserves something like a gym discount? I do. More so than a fireman in my opinion.
		
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And just to clarify - this is what you said

A cashier deserves a discount more than a fireman @banjofred in your opinion


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2022)

My addition to this thread is, glad I'm not banjofred, what a total wimker


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 26, 2022)

KenL said:



			Mods - can we have this moved back onto membership increases?
Thanks
		
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Unfortunately some people on here did not read your post Ken. £30 is very little increase and you must be pleased. I guess it is a class course if it in Lothians. Hoping to get in The Open @North Berwick next Oct. Usually fills up within 20 mins. Have Musselburgh booked and hoping for The Glen. Played Dunbar a few years ago, great track and a tad long for me


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And just to clarify - this is what you said

A cashier deserves a discount more than a fireman @banjofred in your opinion
		
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Yep.....and I'll stick by what I said. This fantasy that some workers are "deserving" of special privileges......is wrong.....in my opinion. Quote me on that Phil.....and then you will find something else to argue with me and others about.......


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## banjofred (Nov 26, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			My addition to this thread is, glad I'm not banjofred, what a total wimker 

Click to expand...

At times.....I'd agree with you.......but not this time.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 26, 2022)

banjofred said:



			At times.....I'd agree with you.......but not this time.
		
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For what it's worth, I agree with your opinion. What I find disappointing is that other posters seem to be saying is that your views are totally unacceptable. Their thoughts are perfectly tenable, many will agree, but why does that mean yours ( and mine) are intolerable?

The world we live in I suppose. On we go.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 26, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			For what it's worth, I agree with your opinion. What I find disappointing is that other posters seem to be saying is that your views are *totally unacceptable*. Their thoughts are perfectly tenable, many will agree, but why does that mean yours ( and mine) are intolerable?

The world we live in I suppose. On we go.
		
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I dunno, maybe because the tone is one of utter heartlessness, totally lacking in any empathy whatsoever? Just a thought


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## Slab (Nov 27, 2022)

Top class tangent, thanks guys

The weather must've been rank rotten for you yesterday


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## Oddsocks (Nov 27, 2022)

there seems to be a lot of jealousy in this thread about what discounts someone gets when they don’t.  Simple answer… do a front line lower paid job and then have access to the discounts available to people working in them sectors.

Does the Asda cashier deserve the same discount if their a hard worker, absolutely not! Does a front line low paid nurse deserve the discount, absolutely! 

If the cashier at Asda isn’t happy they can move from job to job with zero public impact as we could go self serve, the little bonuses given to front line staff are good will gestures. 

If I was having my nuts scanned but a cashier or health consultant, the results could be completely different ….


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			You need to sit down and meet a few nurses and paramedics.  A lot of them are doing it out of kindness and goodness in of their heart.  Paramedics specifically are a special breed are person.  They put there skills to good use and they get the bonus of being paid for it.  I know countless amounts of them that can leave to the private sector and double their wage.  They stay for a reason (and it definitely isn't the money). *People just don't like someone getting something they don't.*

Not all people are financially driven
		
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Unfortunately this pervades our society these days and is, IMO, at the root of many of the disagreements that divide us and that cause us to support the ‘causes’ (I cannot refer to them in any other way and how they should be) that we do and that are leveraged by others to their own, and not wider societal, ends and benefit.


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## KenL (Nov 27, 2022)

Mods - can we have this moved back onto membership increases?
Thanks


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately this pervades our society these days and is, IMO, at the root of many of the disagreements that divide us and that cause us to support the ‘causes’ (I cannot refer to them in any other way and how they should be) that we do and that are leveraged by others to their own, and not wider societal, ends and benefit.
		
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What did you say? I'm confused.🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2022)

KenL said:



			Mods - can we have this moved back onto membership increases?
Thanks


What did you say? I'm confused.🤣
		
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It’s not difficult to understand.

Anyway…my point on subs increases was that nobody should think I am getting off lightly if my subs only go up 2% to cover energy costs, compared with someone else paying 5% more.  When the actual ££s could be  very similar, and if just to cover increases energy costs, the ££s could well be the same.  My 2% could well be the same ££s as your 5%, or indeed someone else’s 10%.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 27, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s not difficult to understand.

Anyway…my point on subs increases was that nobody should think I am getting off lightly if my subs only go up 2% to cover energy costs, compared with someone else paying 5% more.  When the actual ££s could be  very similar, and if just to cover increases energy costs, the ££s could well be the same.  My 2% could well be the same ££s as your 5%, or indeed someone else’s 10%.
		
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Surely the current membership of a club would effect the %%% increase or nett ££££ required.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Surely the current membership of a club would effect the %%% increase or nett ££££ required.
		
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Yes, but if it’s £35 for a 1000 member club, and £35 for a 500 member club, it’s still just £35.  Now what % of the current subs that is obviously depends upon the current subs, but it’s still £35.


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## sunshine (Nov 28, 2022)

11% increase from January. 

I just feel sorry for the poor bankers. Nobody gives them a discount 🤣


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 28, 2022)

sunshine said:



			11% increase from January.

I just feel sorry for the poor bankers. Nobody gives them a discount 🤣
		
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If their under 30 or female they do at ours!


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## KenL (Nov 28, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			If their under 30 or female they do at ours!
		
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Females get a discount? Why's that?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 28, 2022)

KenL said:



			Females get a discount? Why's that?
		
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No joining fee for females any category.
Males under 30 no joining fee.

So under 30 male or female multi millionaire pays half of what a 31 yr old male does.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2022)

KenL said:



			Females get a discount? Why's that?
		
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I’m guessing the same reason many clubs offered discounts for under 30’s - target demographics where numbers are low for a club


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## KenL (Nov 28, 2022)

I can understand students or other young adults getting a slight discount for the good of the game.
But under 30 or all females is not right.
At my last club they did this. A guy approaching 30 got a discount. He was a lawyer, probably earning twice what most of the other members were.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing the same reason many clubs offered discounts for under 30’s - target demographics where numbers are low for a club
		
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Yes it is.
But most of the under 30s don’t have houses or kids. They can’t afford them.
It’s mostly 30/40 yr olds that are in the skint category but they pay the JF.
Once you start discounting things where do you stop.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2022)

KenL said:



			I can understand students or other young adults getting a slight discount for the good of the game.
But under 30 or all females is not right.
At my last club they did this. A guy approaching 30 got a discount. He was a lawyer, probably earning twice what most of the other members were.
		
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It’s not always about how much money someone earns 

We applied discounts for 18-30 - before we had one member in that category, after it went to 37 and 8 years later it’s even more and all stayed at the club


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not always about how much money someone earns

We applied discounts for 18-30 - before we had one member in that category, after it went to 37 and 8 years later it’s even more and all stayed at the club
		
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Yes I know the reasons for it.
But it just dosnt quite seem right to me.


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## Green Man (Nov 28, 2022)

We’re up £50. £700 to £750.


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2022)

Even the membership for one of the nomadic clubs I'm in has just announced a 24% increase in the annual subs 

Not great news but it is what it is


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## KenL (Nov 29, 2022)

What do you mean by a nomadic club?
One that is poor enough that the members don't stick around?


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2022)

KenL said:



			What do you mean by a nomadic club?
One that is poor enough that the members don't stick around?
		
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A golf club without a singular home course


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## KenL (Nov 29, 2022)

Slab said:



			A golf club without a singular home course
		
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Not something I was aware of.


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2022)

KenL said:



			Not something I was aware of.
		
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The majority of golf courses round here are resort/privately owned, if you have the wherewithal you can buy a membership to an individual course but its not cheap so most of the countries golf clubs that offer memberships don't own their own course and instead these nomadic clubs play at various courses year round

(makes it a bit of a challenge keeping a stable handicap when the course, layout, wind, soil & even type of grass on greens/fairways and rough, change from comp to comp!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2022)

Slab said:



			Even the membership for one of the nomadic clubs I'm in has just announced a 24% increase in the annual subs

Not great news but it is what it is
		
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True…but if the subs were £100 a year then 24% for most folks would hardly be a showstopper.  Now 24% at my place would torpedo me - fortunately when it comes to it in a few months times I’m rather hoping we’ll be low single figures 😥


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			True…*but if the subs were £100 a year then 24% for most folks would hardly be a showstopper.*  Now 24% at my place would torpedo me - fortunately when it comes to it in a few months times I’m rather hoping we’ll be low single figures 😥
		
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Surely that would depend on how many of my club memberships increase by similar amount and what I have to spend on top of the membership fee in order to play in a comp?

(lots of ways to look at it)


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## Teebs (Nov 29, 2022)

Subs for 23/24 round the York area

Forest of Galtres - £850
Strensall (York) - £1,161 & £581 joining fee
Forest Park - £885
Fulford will be close to £1,500 I guess


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## davidy233 (Nov 29, 2022)

12.5% at my place


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I know the reasons for it.
But it just dosnt quite seem right to me.
		
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It’s a proven method that helps bring in new players to golf and to bring in people to golf clubs as members - unless you can think of another way to bring in the numbers


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## GB72 (Nov 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a proven method that helps bring in new players to golf and to bring in people to golf clubs as members - unless you can think of another way to bring in the numbers
		
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It all depends on the reasearch carried out which I rarely find has been undertaken. If there is a significant group of under 30s who want to play golf but find cost a prohibitve factor then it is a viable method. Same with juniors, ladies or any other defineable group. After that has been assessed and it has been calculated that this may benefit the club, the study needs to continue to assess how many remain members once the initial period of reduced fees has ended. Does someone join at age 29 and think it is a great thing at £500 still feel that it is value for money 12 months later when it is £800.00. Does it need a full year or, in some cases, up to a decade to decide that golf is worth the full price. 

You also have to look at how the rest of the club feel about it. Basically you have the 40-50 year olds subisdising the rest of the club but playing the least golf. These are the working people who can only play at weekends and pay the most to play the lease whilst paying more to allow those who can play the most to play at reduced costs. If you are looking at pure membership numbers, I suspect that the club that did something to help that group would have people queing up to join. 

My suggestion, cheap 2-3 month membership tied in with group lessons. That is ample time to see if someone enjoys the game enough to sign up for the rest of the year. Other option is that you have reduced fees up to the age of 18 then student discounts so as golf is cheaper whilst in education. Equally, discounts could also apply for those claiming any form of benefit so as to help those on low or apprenticeship wages. That would actually encourage all age groups and help all those who may find golf a bit expensive


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2022)

GB72 said:



			It all depends on the reasearch carried out which I rarely find has been undertaken. If there is a significant group of under 30s who want to play golf but find cost a prohibitve factor then it is a viable method. Same with juniors, ladies or any other defineable group. After that has been assessed and it has been calculated that this may benefit the club, the study needs to continue to assess how many remain members once the initial period of reduced fees has ended. Does someone join at age 29 and think it is a great thing at £500 still feel that it is value for money 12 months later when it is £800.00. Does it need a full year or, in some cases, up to a decade to decide that golf is worth the full price.

You also have to look at how the rest of the club feel about it. Basically you have the 40-50 year olds subisdising the rest of the club but playing the least golf. These are the working people who can only play at weekends and pay the most to play the lease whilst paying more to allow those who can play the most to play at reduced costs. If you are looking at pure membership numbers, I suspect that the club that did something to help that group would have people queing up to join.

My suggestion, cheap 2-3 month membership tied in with group lessons. That is ample time to see if someone enjoys the game enough to sign up for the rest of the year. Other option is that you have reduced fees up to the age of 18 then student discounts so as golf is cheaper whilst in education. Equally, discounts could also apply for those claiming any form of benefit so as to help those on low or apprenticeship wages. That would actually encourage all age groups and help all those who may find golf a bit expensive
		
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When we did it - lots of research was done and England Golf have also done lots of research 

Also any changes to our membership prices and categories have to be agreed at the AGM 

the budget was also worked out to ensure that it was affecting the finances and it’s also monitored every year 

The scheme has worked very well for us , it’s increased our membership levels below the age of 30 and 99% have stayed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			12.5% at my place
		
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Ooof…That % would stick about £223 on my subs and crash through the £2,000 barrier 😳 But hopefully that won’t have to happen.

Though as our renewal in 5th April goodness knows what will happen as the government current energy price guarantee and ofgem energy price cap will change from end March.  And on that I am confused about what’s due to happen.  For residential customers the average bill from end March seems to be projected to be about £3000, whilst the ofgem energy price cap will go up to about £4300.  No idea without researching further what might happen for businesses and so to golf clubs.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a proven method that helps bring in new players to golf and to bring in people to golf clubs as members - unless you can think of another way to bring in the numbers
		
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Membership is full
We have quite a healthy waiting list so don’t see the reason for discounts for anyone.
Especially based on sex. I thought that was illegal now, but members clubs seem immune.


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## chellie (Nov 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Membership is full
We have quite a healthy waiting list so don’t see the reason for discounts for anyone.
Especially based on sex. I thought that was illegal now, but members clubs seem immune.
		
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Not all members clubs give discount based on male/female. Ours doesn't.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 29, 2022)

chellie said:



			Not all members clubs give discount based on male/female. Ours doesn't.
		
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I know but ours does even though we’re full.
That’s how equality works.
We’re all full members but some pay more than others .


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I know but ours does even though we’re full.
That’s how equality works.
We’re all full members but some pay more than others .
		
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Is there any club where every single member plays exactly the same fees ? 

Is it fair that a 70 year who plays 7 days a week pays less than a 50 year old who can only play on Saturday and Sunday ?

If a club was full of juniors and ladies then they wouldn’t need to offer deals but not many clubs are even with full clubs and waiting lists


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there any club where every single member plays exactly the same fees ?

Is it fair that a 70 year who plays 7 days a week pays less than a 50 year old who can only play on Saturday and Sunday ?

If a club was full of juniors and ladies then they wouldn’t need to offer deals but not many clubs are even with full clubs and waiting lists
		
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Ours is though hence my post ,you don’t seem to have seen that statement.
I am talking about my club nobody else’s.

I know a few 70 yr olds still working who only play at the weekend.
But that’s not the point .
  we should all pay the same if you want to be a member. Exc juniors.
It’s a luxury sport 

Should the ladies get cheaper drinks, under 30s cheaper drinks / meals.?


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## moogie (Nov 29, 2022)

My club the same

Under 18 category
18 - 21 category

Then full member
Male,  female,  22yrs old or 102yrs old....same price


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## williamalex1 (Nov 29, 2022)

KenL said:



			Not something I was aware of.
		
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I think they were called Artisan golfers .


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## williamalex1 (Nov 29, 2022)

For fee increases of over 3%, we require an EGM.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 30, 2022)

moogie said:



			My club the same

Under 18 category
18 - 21 category

Then full member
Male,  female,  22yrs old or 102yrs old....same price
		
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i am in the middle on this one. No probs helping the younger workers and uni leavers etc staying in the clubs with a cheaper deal but one that moves towards full by mid to late twenties. Say 28 - 7 years post grad most will be earning good money and if manual workers fully trained, qualified and near peak earnings if plumbers, electricians, builders etc - no reason the rest of the club should subsidise anymore


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## Crow (Nov 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If a club was full of juniors and ladies then they wouldn’t need to offer deals but not many clubs are even with full clubs and waiting lists
		
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By your clubs reasoning they should start offering discounts to middle aged male and senior male golfers as they're underrepresented in that demographic.


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 30, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			I think they were called Artisan golfers .
		
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Artisans were those who got free membership in return for labour on the course or premises


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Artisans were those who got free membership in return for labour on the course or premises
		
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We still have an associated Artisans club albeit its membership is very limited….to maybe 30.  Quite restricted tee times, but they run pretty independent of the club and have their own competitions.  In return it’s members do fairly regular manual work sessions around the course such as pine-pulling and divot filling, the sort of stuff the greens team haven’t got the time to do.

In general I don’t mind paying a little more in my subs to subsidise younger members as a healthy and thriving club needs a broad range demographic, with depth of numbers in all age ranges.  I am not in the slightest bit bothered about what anyone earns and their ability or otherwise to pay full subs.  That is none of my business, nor is it the business of the club, and is irrelevant when the club is encouraging a younger demographic to join and stay joined.  

If I am comfortable with my level of subs and happy to pay it, it is no interest to me what others are paying. I don’t need to create and foment resentments in my head relating to my main recreational activity.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i am in the middle on this one. No probs helping the younger workers and uni leavers etc staying in the clubs with a cheaper deal but one that moves towards full by mid to late twenties. Say 28 - 7 years post grad most will be earning good money and if manual workers fully trained, qualified and near peak earnings if plumbers, electricians, builders etc - no reason the rest of the club should subsidise anymore
		
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how much disposable income do you think a 28 year old has?

They may be on "decent money" though that may also not be true, average salary for a 28 year old is £24,000 across the UK. Which after student loan, pension contributions etc they are probably taking home £1,500pcm take out rent/mortgage, council tax, food, travel expenses, utilities etc they are not going to have a lot of disposable income, of course some will but you don't create a policy because a small minority fit into it.


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## D-S (Nov 30, 2022)

We offer free membership to Juniors whose parents, grandparents or guardians are full members. This has galvanised our Junior section, it has also been an incentive for younger mothers and fathers to encourage their children to play the game and helped retain some younger parents. As Junior subs are so low it was a small cost to the Club but broadly welcomed by members. Great way of encouraging Junior golf and seeing families in the game.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

D-S said:



			We offer free membership to Juniors whose parents, grandparents or guardians are full members. This has galvanised our Junior section, it has also been an incentive for younger mothers and fathers to encourage their children to play the game and helped retain some younger parents. As Junior subs are so low it was a small cost to the Club but broadly welcomed by members. Great way of encouraging Junior golf and seeing families in the game.
		
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I am looking to rejoin a club, and one offers free junior membership with a paying adult, and that is definitely a major positive that may even swing it so they get my business


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2022)

Does any club offer reduced membership costs for people of benefits or low income in general. Plenty of posts about reducing costs for under 30s to make it affordable but not much in relation to making golf affordable for others. If the aim of reduced costs for certan groups is to put golf membership withing their grasp then surely clubs should also be looking at similar schemes for all low income individuals.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Does any club offer reduced membership costs for people of benefits or low income in general. Plenty of posts about reducing costs for under 30s to make it affordable but not much in relation to making golf affordable for others. If the aim of reduced costs for certan groups is to put golf membership withing their grasp then surely clubs should also be looking at similar schemes for all low income individuals.
		
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Are you confident that members would update the club instantly if circumstances changed? Do you also have a sliding scale based on pay?

Simple systems work best.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 30, 2022)

I’ve never understood why seniors got so much discount. Other than they are typically the ones running the club.

They play the most and at my place appear to be responsible for the most damage to the course.


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Does any club offer reduced membership costs for people of benefits or low income in general. Plenty of posts about reducing costs for under 30s to make it affordable but not much in relation to making golf affordable for others. If the aim of reduced costs for certan groups is to put golf membership withing their grasp then surely clubs should also be looking at similar schemes for all low income individuals.
		
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I know of a few clubs that have financial assistant programmes, the person can apply to the club and put forward their case with evidence and if accepted fees will be reduced


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve never understood why seniors got so much discount. Other than they are typically the ones running the club.

They play the most and at my place appear to be responsible for the most damage to the course.
		
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I think it is just a hangover from a time when most seniors would have been relatively poor, just haven't updated since the new generation of seniors have got to the bracket where in general they are better off than a lot of working people.

As an example my grandfather had a very modest armed forces pension and not much else, where as my dad managed to pay off the mortgage when he was 50 managing to put away a lot of money into savings and investments, and has a very healthy pension, and that is from being a teacher so not a particularly high earning career. Why should he who has very low expenditures and a decent income pay less than someone with a big mortgage and two kids, who can only play at weekends.

To be fair my dad agrees and offers to pay the difference between full and senior for a friend to make it cheaper for them


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you confident that members would update the club instantly if circumstances changed? Do you also have a sliding scale based on pay?

Simple systems work best.
		
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Agreed, they do but I am just putting forward the point that if people are quoting affordability as a reason to reduce the fees of certain demographics then it stands to reason that such policies should be applied accross the board. Perhaps a totaly shake up and fees are based on earnings with the lowerst earners paying less and the highest more.


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## HankMarvin (Nov 30, 2022)

We are expecting an increase of just over £500 if reports are correct which is probably only fair given the current climate we are in as costs for everything have gone up.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve never understood why seniors got so much discount. Other than they are typically the ones running the club.

They play the most and at my place appear to be responsible for the most damage to the course.
		
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Senior's discount is restricted to those who have been a full member for a minimum of 25 consecutive years and are over the state retirement age set by the government. 
Discounts start at approx. 12% for age group 65 to 68, 40% for 69 to 71, 72 and over get approx. 60%.
My 2 PPs are 70 but don't won't get the discount till they have 25 years of service.


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## hovis (Nov 30, 2022)

Crazy really.  Discounts offered the young men and senior golfers when typically they're at a time in their life when money isn't such an issue.  Middle aged man with mortgage and kids pays more!!!😂


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## Banchory Buddha (Nov 30, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Senior's discount is restricted to those who have been a full member for a minimum of 25 consecutive years and are over the state retirement age set by the government.
Discounts start at approx. 12% for age group 65 to 68, 40% for 69 to 71, 72 and over get approx. 60%.
My 2 PPs are 70 but don't won't get the discount till they have 25 years of service.
		
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Those are absolutely mental discounts and wholly unsustainable as the golfing demographic continues to creep older.

Clubs like Duff House Royal have the right idea, all adults pay the same amount, no Seniors discount


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## r0wly86 (Nov 30, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Those are absolutely mental discounts and wholly unsustainable as the golfing demographic continues to creep older.

Clubs like Duff House Royal have the right idea, all adults pay the same amount, no Seniors discount
		
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Duff House Royal does have lower fees for those aged 19-25 years old

That being said the annual subs are only £535 which most people can afford, where I am £1,500 is the lowest amount you will be looking to pay for an average course, up to £2,500 for a good course


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## apj0524 (Nov 30, 2022)

Looks like a 20% increase this year, which I can see is necessary but is going to cause much discussion I'm sure


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## Golfnut1957 (Nov 30, 2022)

GB72 said:



*Does any club offer reduced membership costs for people of benefits or low income in general.* Plenty of posts about reducing costs for under 30s to make it affordable but not much in relation to making golf affordable for others. If the aim of reduced costs for certan groups is to put golf membership withing their grasp then surely clubs should also be looking at similar schemes for all low income individuals.
		
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We used to but having just looked on the website it appears to have gone.

I do know that when it was available there was no published fixed rate, just an offer to come and speak to the secretary with a view to discussing what could be arranged.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 30, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Just had the Agm report though, up to £1050, seniors and 30 to 35 abolished.. joining fee raised and reinstated, £1000. I'd suspect the 100 or so guys we had join the under 35 cat will all get gone at renewal as they were paying less than half price and no joining fee.  Might actually go to the agm this year.
		
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I’d be interested to know what everyone on the forum thinks of 30-35 rates being abolished?

I’m 29 so it’s particularly relevant to me. My club does not have a 30-35 category so from next year, I’ll be paying full member fees. Most local clubs (better and worse) have 30-35 categories. My argument is really that no one in their right mind would join our club between those ages because of the cost differential and that is an age group we don’t have enough of. However, understandably, some members I’ve spoken to hate the idea of “subsidising” fees for people in their 30s, some of whom are quite successful!


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## D-S (Nov 30, 2022)

apj0524 said:



			Looks like a 20% increase this year, which I can see is necessary but is going to cause much discussion I'm sure
		
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Can I ask which club as it might be of interest to me as my club is local's and it iOS good to know what's going on in the region  - if you don't want to make it public I would appreciate a DM. Thanks.


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I’d be interested to know what everyone on the forum thinks of 30-35 rates being abolished?

I’m 29 so it’s particularly relevant to me. My club does not have a 30-35 category so from next year, I’ll be paying full member fees. Most local clubs (better and worse) have 30-35 categories. My argument is really that no one in their right mind would join our club between those ages because of the cost differential and that is an age group we don’t have enough of. However, understandably, some members I’ve spoken to hate the idea of “subsidising” fees for people in their 30s, some of whom are quite successful!
		
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I look at it from a overall point of view. I am not one for simply giving discounts to try and attract certain age groups, I am not sure that I see the point. Juniors I understand and maybe some discounts above that. I see discounts as a way of attracting people to the benefits of membership. If discounts are applied up to 35, people could be receiving them for a decade or more, surely enough time to assess whether golf is something you want to pursue. On that basis, I would remove all of the subsidised fees and have a reduced rate for the first 2 years of membership across the board, which is plenty of time to see if golf membership and the club is for you. After that, you pay full whack like everyone else. This would also leave an enticing entry price point to everyone who is insterested in golf and I suspect that there are potentially more new members in their 40s who have given up their primary sport as age and injuries kick in. Most golfers I know used it to replace football, rugby, cricket etc. 

You then have the argument of affordability. If the basis of the reduced fees is to make them affordable then you are making some big assumptions on the position of all of the members. If the reduction is on that basis then it should be a plan open to all members who do not have the available funds to pay the full cost. 

I just think that there is a better system out there. I also am not sure that I see the fascination with having members is a certain age bracket. If the price and the product is good, they will come anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I’d be interested to know what everyone on the forum thinks of 30-35 rates being abolished?

I’m 29 so it’s particularly relevant to me. My club does not have a 30-35 category so from next year, I’ll be paying full member fees. Most local clubs (better and worse) have 30-35 categories. My argument is really that no one in their right mind would join our club between those ages because of the cost differential and that is an age group we don’t have enough of. However, understandably, some members I’ve spoken to hate the idea of “subsidising” fees for people in their 30s, some of whom are quite successful!
		
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Too many of us find too many things to harbour resentments about, things such as what others pay for that I pay a bit more for…and these resentments can build up and seriously influence our thinking, attitudes and behaviour in general - and most often in my experience not in a positive way.

There are ways out of this sort of thinking, though I learned yesterday that one I practice is one which less than 50% of the population even vaguely associate with, never mind practice.  Me?  I find that acceptance and forgiveness are marvellous ways of defusing my head by not holding on to things and not picking up quite unnecessary resentments, thereby preventing it turning into a washing machine of chaotic and angry thoughts.😇😍

Well as imperfectly as I try, at least I try.


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## Bdill93 (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I’d be interested to know what everyone on the forum thinks of 30-35 rates being abolished?

I’m 29 so it’s particularly relevant to me. My club does not have a 30-35 category so from next year, I’ll be paying full member fees. Most local clubs (better and worse) have 30-35 categories. My argument is really that no one in their right mind would join our club between those ages because of the cost differential and that is an age group we don’t have enough of. However, understandably, some members I’ve spoken to hate the idea of “subsidising” fees for people in their 30s, some of whom are quite successful!
		
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I'm also 29, I don't earn buckets but I do okay. I've got mates on 21k and I've got mates on 60k+ so its a real mine field when it comes to earnings in our category - but I do think keeping costs low for under 30's is a good idea. I don't plan on leaving my club now, its home. Its nothing special at all, hell we moan about it more than we praise it - but I wont consider leaving to go elsewhere. 

My club's bracket also ends at 30, so I'm in my last year before going up to full fees, again similar to you locally there are clubs who do lower rates until 35 but being honest my club is so cheap in general that moving to one of those (although a far better course) would be more expensive than staying put and paying full at my place. 

Also - no clue why people think you don't have a kid and mortgage till you're 30+... I have both


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Too many of us find too many things to harbour resentments about, things such as what others pay for that I pay a bit more for…and these resentments can build up and seriously influence our thinking, attitudes and behaviour in general - and most often in my experience not in a positive way.

There are ways out of this sort of thinking, though I learned yesterday that one I practice is one which less than 50% of the population even vaguely associate with, never mind practice.  Me?  I find that acceptance and forgiveness are marvellous ways of defusing my head by not holding on to things and not picking up quite unnecessary resentments, thereby preventing it turning into a washing machine of chaotic and angry thoughts.😇😍

Well as imperfectly as I try, at least I try.
		
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I do not harbour resentment. What I do feel is that if the club has amount that they can budget towards reduced fees then it is far better targeted at everyone who may struggle to afford the cost of full membership rather than aimed at a demographic that the club feels it wants more of.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2022)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I’d be interested to know what everyone on the forum thinks of 30-35 rates being abolished?

I’m 29 so it’s particularly relevant to me. My club does not have a 30-35 category so from next year, I’ll be paying full member fees. Most local clubs (better and worse) have 30-35 categories. My argument is really that no one in their right mind would join our club between those ages because of the cost differential and that is an age group we don’t have enough of. However, understandably, some members I’ve spoken to hate the idea of “subsidising” fees for people in their 30s, some of whom are quite successful!
		
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I wonder if this is more relevant to the expensive parts of the country. Personally, I don't see any justification for a 30-35 category. Up to 25, yes, past 25, you are in with everyone else.


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## D-S (Nov 30, 2022)

We go from Juniors (very low or free) to 18-23 (Student Category 30% of full fee) then the price increases proportionally by around 10% of total fee every year until 30 when full price is paid. Hopefully by then you have a loyal, long term member who will contribute significantly to the club for a long period. Always better to have ‘home grown’ members than have to compete for transferees (or those disgruntled with their existing club), especially when times are tight which they will no doubt be again soon. The only other discount offered is for HM forces.


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## Neilds (Nov 30, 2022)

We have a number of brackets for under 35 year olds to get 'reduced' membership, no reduction for Seniors.  However, the way I look at my membership is "Can I afford it?"  and "Do I think it is value for money?" If I answer yes to both these, why should it matter if someone pays less than me?  I know I play less than most in my social group but, as I can still answer yes to the 2 questions, I continue to pay each year, and to enjoy my golf without worrying if someone might be paying less than me.


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## Pants (Nov 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			...(Seniors) play the most and at my place appear to be responsible for the most damage to the course.
		
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What a wonderful example of you using agism as an insult to come to an unintentional logical conclusion.  By extension, those who play the leaast will cause the least damage. Plonker


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## BiMGuy (Nov 30, 2022)

Pants said:



			What a wonderful example of you using agism as an insult to come to an unintentional logial conclusion.  By extension, those who play the leaast will cause the least damage. Plonker 

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No. I’m basing my opinion on what I see at my course. 

Follow any seniors comp and there are multiple unraked bunkers, pitch marks left on every green, damage to holes where they are using a putter or the flag to remove the ball. And we should be on trolly bans after the rain but we won’t because it discriminates against the seniors. Clubs words, not mine.

They are by no means the only group that are like this, but are by far the worst. Everything that I’ve said above has been witnessed by multiple people and reported to the club. The club leadership has acknowledged the problem off the record, but has admitted there is nothing that can do about the problem.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2022)

Just been announced that our fees will go up by 7% across all categories. For full members that is an increase of £54.25.

Not as bad as I feared in the circumstances.

It will be interesting to see what neighboring clubs do and whether some jump ship across to them. We are on the border of a fee split, we are more expensive than clubs just north and east of us, but cheaper than those south of us.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just been announced that our fees will go up by 7% across all categories. For full members that is an increase of £54.25.

Not as bad as I feared in the circumstances.

It will be interesting to see what neighboring clubs do and whether some jump ship across to them. We are on the border of a fee split, we are more expensive than clubs just north and east of us, but cheaper than those south of us.
		
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Do you think some would move to another club for just about £1 a week increase?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2022)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Do you think some would move to another club for just about £1 a week increase?
		
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I don't think people necessarily rationalise it like that, £1 a week increase. It also takes us from £775 to £829 and the psychological crossing of the £800 barrier may tip some over.

There are clubs within 10-15 minutes of mine that are £100-150 cheaper, before any increase but assuming they will increase their own fees, so there are alternatives that are cheaper if some feel this is too much.

As I said, I don't think 7% / £54, is bad considering all that is going on.


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think people necessarily rationalise it like that, £1 a week increase. It also takes us from £775 to £829 and the psychological crossing of the £800 barrier may tip some over.

There are clubs within 10-15 minutes of mine that are £100-150 cheaper, before any increase but assuming they will increase their own fees, so there are alternatives that are cheaper if some feel this is too much.

As I said, I don't think 7% / £54, is bad considering all that is going on.
		
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It is a fair point. i had been going back and forth as to whether my membership was value for money based on how often I could play and I always had it in my mind that I would call it quits if it hit £1000.00. Needless to say that this happened and I resigned my membership even though the increase was not massive that year.


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## Pants (Nov 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			No. I’m basing my opinion on what I see at my course.
Only commenting on the "logic" you posted

Follow any seniors comp and there are multiple unraked bunkers, pitch marks left on every green, damage to holes where they are using a putter or the flag to remove the ball. I'm a nomad golfer although I play mainly as a member's guest most times and I agree that these problems occur but this is a evident with ALL golfers - not just after a Seniors Comp, early morning seniors, afternoon juniors or whatever.  Realistically, seniors are far less likely to make pitch marks than the younger guns firing in from distance. And we should be on trolly bans after the rain but we won’t because it discriminates against the seniors. What a load of horrocks.  It's a ban on trolly use, not seniors.  I'm a senior and mostly play with other seniors.  If there's a trolly bad we just take out 7 or 8 clubs, use a lightweight carry bad and get on with it.  If conditions are too bad, we just don't bother like most other sensible folk. Clubs words, not mine.

They are by no means the only group that are like this, but are by far the worst. Everything that I’ve said above has been witnessed by multiple people and reported to the club. The club leadership has acknowledged the problem *off the record *, but has admitted there is nothing that can do about the problem.  "Club leadership"??  What the heck is that meant to mean?  If it's a propriety club then it's understandable up to a point that the owner(s) want to maximumise income, but if it's a members club and you aren't happy about it then get on the committee and do something about the  perceived problem. 

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## BiMGuy (Nov 30, 2022)

We are a private club. But we have a very odd Club management structure.

I was on the committee at my old club. Never again. I pay my subs and expect the people running the club to do so in the best interests of the members. Which they mostly do. But I accept they can’t please everyone. 

I never said ban seniors. I have the reasons given to me when I asked why there wasn’t a trolley ban. 

Thank you for highlighting one of the problems. Seniors thinking they don’t leave pitch marks!


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## hovis (Nov 30, 2022)

Pants said:



			What a wonderful example of you using agism as an insult to come to an unintentional logical conclusion.  By extension, those who play the leaast will cause the least damage. Plonker 

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In all fairness to the poster the seniors wrecked my old club.  They stand right next to the hole to get their ball, drag their feet across the playing surface, drive their sit on golf carts right upto the greens and take almighty divots.
Most of them don't rake the bunkers because the distance from the furthest point to the rake and when challenged by the green keepers give excuses like "I don't hit the ball high enough to make a pitch mark" and "you should buy more rakes then"


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 30, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Does any club offer reduced membership costs for people of benefits or low income in general. Plenty of posts about reducing costs for under 30s to make it affordable but not much in relation to making golf affordable for others. If the aim of reduced costs for certan groups is to put golf membership withing their grasp then surely clubs should also be looking at similar schemes for all low income individuals.
		
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Thought it was capped @£520 if The Club is part of  CASC. Only 4 days membership at some places.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you confident that members would update the club instantly if circumstances changed? Do you also have a sliding scale based on pay?

Simple systems work best.
		
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There was a guy here the other month, cannot remember his name, who reduced his age by around 8 years to get a discount! Did not seem a wind up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2022)

Something that was stressed by our Finance Director at a recent members meeting was that the board‘s ultimate responsibility was maintaining the financial stability and viability of the club, thereby minimising financial exposure and risk to the membership.  And in assuring that stability they could have to implement measures that could be unpopular or costly to the membership, but that are required given their wider understanding of the pressures on the club‘s finances, both currently and looking forward at least 5yrs.  

We had all this stressed and illustrated at some length in the context of proposed clubhouse redevelopment, with the Board recommending a pragmatic and conservative approach when many members wished the club to be adventurous and bold in our thinking.


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## Oddsocks (Nov 30, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			how much disposable income do you think a 28 year old has?

They may be on "decent money" though that may also not be true, average salary for a 28 year old is £24,000 across the UK. Which after student loan, pension contributions etc they are probably taking home £1,500pcm take out rent/mortgage, council tax, food, travel expenses, utilities etc they are not going to have a lot of disposable income, of course some will but you don't create a policy because a small minority fit into it.
		
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Most £24k earners are still at home with mummy and daddy in London. On that salary they’d get a shared ownership Lonsdale shoe box


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## Springveldt (Nov 30, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think people necessarily rationalise it like that, £1 a week increase. It also takes us from £775 to £829 and the psychological crossing of the £800 barrier may tip some over.

There are clubs within 10-15 minutes of mine that are £100-150 cheaper, before any increase but assuming they will increase their own fees, so there are alternatives that are cheaper if some feel this is too much.

As I said, I don't think 7% / £54, is bad considering all that is going on.
		
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Considering we have had the same £775 since before COVID I’m actually a little surprised at the 7% as I was expecting at least 10%. I’d imagine the new fee will be £830 so I’m happy with that.


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## Pants (Nov 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			We are a private club. But we have a very odd Club management structure.
I never said ban seniors. I have the reasons given to me when I asked why there wasn’t a trolley ban.

Thank you for highlighting one of the problems. Seniors thinking they don’t leave pitch marks!
		
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I didn't say that and you know it.

And, just for a bit of balance, one example when we followed a large society around a couple of months ago.  It was a corporate day so comprised mainly of 30/40/50 year olds.  All were meant to be reasonable golfers as the club insists on H/cap certs for visitors (probably never checked but should in the first instance weed out hackers). Would you believe it?  Apart from a very, very long round, all of the problems you describe that are caused by seniors were also caused by these golfers - and not a senior amongst them.  

I accept that some seniors do the things you are describing but so do golfers of all ages.  Get over your agism problem.  One day you might be a senior - if stress and worry about their antics on a golf course don't get to you first.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2022)

We really encourage 18-24 bracket by offering membership at <£500, given full membership is ~£1800.  Transitional memberships from 25-30 step up from £790-£1200.  Full course access but no voting rights.  Problem is…we are full with a long waiting list.  Not sure how we manage younger applicants.  No senior membership category.  No differentiation between ladies and gents memberships.


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## HeftyHacker (Dec 1, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wonder if this is more relevant to the expensive parts of the country. Personally, I don't see any justification for a 30-35 category. Up to 25, yes, past 25, you are in with everyone else.
		
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Its all relative though I guess, I earnt probably half as much at that age (20 to 25) but I had a damn sight more spare cash and free time - paying my parents minimal board, driving a cheap car, no responsibilities or kids. Hell I'd have been on course 5 times a week in summer 😂.

Now at 31, earning probably double my salary from that age but with a mortgage, soon to be 2 kids and barely any free time and or cash I'd be seriously reconsidering my membership if I was paying full whack - I simply wouldn't get (my perceived) value from it.

Having said that I understand peoples frustrations and its difficult to know where to draw the line with reduced memberships because its so subjective.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			Its all relative though I guess, I earnt probably half as much at that age (20 to 25) but I had a damn sight more spare cash and free time - paying my parents minimal board, driving a cheap car, no responsibilities or kids. Hell I'd have been on course 5 times a week in summer 😂.

Now at 31, earning probably double my salary from that age but with a mortgage, soon to be 2 kids and barely any free time and or cash I'd be seriously reconsidering my membership if I was paying full whack - I simply wouldn't get (my perceived) value from it.

Having said that I understand peoples frustrations and its difficult to know where to draw the line with reduced memberships because its so subjective.
		
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I think the 'spare cash' argument can move around from person to person, there is no hard and fast rule as to when you have the most spare cash. 

A lot of clubs up here, rather than offer age discounts, offer a lower membership charge and then a price per round fee. I think that makes more sense and is fairer to all. No age discrimination, open to all.


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## evemccc (Dec 1, 2022)

A lot of life is down to priorities…when to choose to save, when to splurge, when to spend money on home-improvements, when to play Turnberry, Birkdale and The Old Course etc


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## IanM (Dec 1, 2022)

Clubs need to do what is right for their sustainability (old meaning) in the context of the market in which they operate. 

Hence,  some initiatives right for some courses, are not necessarily right for others.


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## Albo (Dec 1, 2022)

It’s hard because everyone is different, at 23/24 I was living with my parents, earning a fair wage paying no digs and having pretty much no outgoing, I could easily have afforded full price, at late 20s I saddled myself with a crippling mortgage versus earning and went from having a bundle of disposable income to having next to none, no way I could afford a full price membership at that point in life.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Senior's discount is restricted to those who have been a full member for a minimum of 25 consecutive years and are over the state retirement age set by the government.
Discounts start at approx. 12% for age group 65 to 68, 40% for 69 to 71, 72 and over get approx. 60%.
My 2 PPs are 70 but don't won't get the discount till they have 25 years of service.
		
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My conclusion is that these categories were determined by a committee of long serving members aged over 68.
Commercially, I can't see how this arrangement could work or be sustainable.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			No. I’m basing my opinion on what I see at my course.

Follow any seniors comp and there are multiple unraked bunkers, pitch marks left on every green, damage to holes where they are using a putter or the flag to remove the ball. And we should be on trolly bans after the rain but we won’t because it discriminates against the seniors. Clubs words, not mine.

They are by no means the only group that are like this, but are by far the worst. Everything that I’ve said above has been witnessed by multiple people and reported to the club. The club leadership has acknowledged the problem off the record, but has admitted there is nothing that can do about the problem.
		
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Well said. The seniors at my place are easily the worst when it comes to caring for the course. Of course many of them have impeccable etiquette, but some of them are a disgrace.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2022)

Pants said:



			What a wonderful example of you using agism as an insult to come to an unintentional logical conclusion.  By extension, those who play the leaast will cause the least damage. Plonker 

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What a stunning lack of awareness.


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## D-S (Dec 1, 2022)

sunshine said:



			My conclusion is that these categories were determined by a committee of long serving members aged over 68.
Commercially, I can't see how this arrangement could work or be sustainable.
		
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They would be unsustainable at my club as well as extremely unpopular.


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## Genu9 (Dec 1, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Well said. The seniors at my place are easily the worst when it comes to caring for the course. Of course many of them have impeccable etiquette, but some of them are a disgrace.
		
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They're the worst, they're impeccable and they're a disgrace.......?


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## Pants (Dec 1, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			They're the worst, they're impeccable and they're a disgrace.......?
		
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I had to open my ignore list to see what you were on about lol.  Suffice to say that he's straight back on it.  Wind up merchant who will jump on someone else's bandwagon without any real thought about what he's posting


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## jim8flog (Dec 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve never understood why seniors got so much discount. Other than they are typically the ones running the club.

They play the most and at my place appear to be responsible for the most damage to the course.
		
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 We scrapped senior discounts years ago, however you only got it if you also had 25 years of membership so it could have been seen as a loyalty discount really. One of my mates got very upset when they scrapped it one year before he was 65 and he had 40 years in.


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## jim8flog (Dec 1, 2022)

One of the other things about *most* seniors is that because they play golf more often they are also using the clubhouse more often so spend a lot more money in the club that way. 

Most of the guys I play with get down the club more than hour before their tee time spending time in the clubhouse having drinks and a bite to eat and then another hour+ in the clubhouse after playing doing the same


More likely to see younger players turn some time before their tee time play and go because they do not have the time to spare like a lot of seniors.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			They're the worst, they're impeccable and they're a disgrace.......?
		
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Maybe try reading what I posted? 🤡👎


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## Genu9 (Dec 1, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Maybe try reading what I posted? 🤡👎
		
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See #328. Get the gist......


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 2, 2022)

Pants said:



			I had to open my ignore list to see what you were on about lol.  Suffice to say that he's straight back on it.  Wind up merchant who will jump on someone else's bandwagon without any real thought about what he's posting 

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It's funny you should say that. I have frequented a footy fanzine site for years and have 17 members on ignore, it sometimes makes threads difficult to follow, but having un-ignored some I soon realise why I did it in the first place.

I don't have anyone on ignore here, but I am sorely tempted to follow your example.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 2, 2022)

A selfish golfer is not limited to age - have seen plenty “younger” golfers fail to treat the course in the manner we all expect


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## r0wly86 (Dec 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Well said. The seniors at my place are easily the worst when it comes to caring for the course. Of course many of them have impeccable etiquette, but some of them are a disgrace.
		
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when I worked as a green keeper in the summer holidays it was the seniors who were the worst as raking and repairing, also the amount of times they told me to get out of the way when green keepers have right of way was ridiculous, quite aggressive as well


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## sunshine (Dec 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A selfish golfer is not limited to age - have seen plenty “younger” golfers fail to treat the course in the manner we all expect
		
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You're absolutely right.

It's just noticeable that it's the seniors that seem to have the worst culprits at my club. I find it odd as they play the most and I would have thought would be the most invested in keeping the course in top condition.


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 2, 2022)

Membership fees up by 7% from 1st Jan.
Bit of a double whammy though. We have had calendar year fees, but 18 months ago we voted to change to April to March. This is the change over, so we each face a 15 month commitment.
Payment can be in instalments, but the total figure does look daunting for some. Many of the younger chaps are considering the Play More Golf option for next year.
One or two have said they were going to do this anyway.
Discounts at ours for the over 80s and 40-year loyalty.
6 more years at full fee and then I'll get the 40-year discount.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 2, 2022)

sunshine said:



			You're absolutely right.

It's just noticeable that it's the seniors that seem to have the worst culprits at my club. I find it odd as they play the most and I would have thought would be the most invested in keeping the course in top condition.
		
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I play a lot in the seniors.
While I have seen some very poor etiquette from some I would say the vast majority are very well behaved.
But there are some very arrogant so and sos.
Seen one step over a rake in bunker play his shot and step over the rake on his way out.
Asked him “ you not raking your prints”?
“ that’s the green keepers job “ knob.


But arrogance is not exclusive to seniors in my experience.!


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## D-S (Dec 2, 2022)

Seniors are just golfers whose bad (and good) habits have had more time to become ingrained.
The one thing that I might say is that due to physical infirmity, some struggle to bend over and so the effort of repairing pitch marks is greater and in some cases obviously too much. Many have those ball grabbers on their putters, as they cannot easily bend down, and these tend to damage the edges ogpf the holes if not used very carefully which is often the case.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 2, 2022)

Club announced at a members forum that they are proposing to hold the current rates for the vast majority of members in recognition that some will find an increasingly difficult to bare and to try to hold on to as many members as possible.  At the same time, there will be some streamlining of categories meaning a few will see a small increase and a bigger number will see a small decrease.  All in all a good decision,  and hopefully will mean our membership numbers hold up.


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## yandabrown (Dec 2, 2022)

D-S said:



			Seniors are just golfers whose bad (and good) habits have had more time to become ingrained.
The one thing that I might say is that due to physical infirmity, some struggle to bend over and so the effort of repairing pitch marks is greater and in some cases obviously too much. Many have those ball grabbers on their putters, as they cannot easily bend down, and these tend to damage the edges ogpf the holes if not used very carefully which is often the case.
		
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Sounds like there should be a market for long handled pitch mark repairers. Though a quick Google shows that it already exists, maybe they need some better marketing: https://www.seniorgolfuk.co.uk/ however, looking at the site and the age of the "latest news" tweets, I wonder if they are still in business.


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## banjofred (Dec 2, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Sounds like there should be a market for long handled pitch mark repairers. Though a quick Google shows that it already exists, maybe they need some better marketing: https://www.seniorgolfuk.co.uk/ however, looking at the site and the age of the "latest news" tweets, I wonder if they are still in business.
		
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Obvious answer.....require all seniors to have a young caddie with them.....you know, to do all the dirty work. Maybe have a test every year.... "Can you pick a ball off the ground?....if not, a caddie is required".

That was a joke.......I think.


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## Crow (Dec 2, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Sounds like there should be a market for long handled pitch mark repairers. Though a quick Google shows that it already exists, maybe they need some better marketing: https://www.seniorgolfuk.co.uk/ however, looking at the site and the age of the "latest news" tweets, I wonder if they are still in business.
		
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I'd guess that handling a pitchmark repairer on the end of a 3 foot stick would require quite a bit of practice and would be more likely to cause further damage than repair the initial pitchmark damage.


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## Crow (Dec 2, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I play a lot in the seniors.
While I have seen some very poor etiquette from some I would say the vast majority are very well behaved.
But there are some very arrogant so and sos.
Seen one step over a rake in bunker play his shot and step over the rake on his way out.
Asked him “ you not raking your prints”?
“ that’s the green keepers job “ knob.


But arrogance is not exclusive to seniors in my experience.!
		
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He needs informing that, while the greenkeepers might be expected to rake the bunkers at the start of the day, the club can't afford to employ a team of greenkeepers to stand by the bunkers through the day to rake them after every player has gone in one, so it's his duty to see that they're in a fit state for golfers following him.

If he still doesn't tow the line then stand on his ball whenever it goes in a bunker.


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## Imurg (Dec 2, 2022)

Biggest problem we find with pitchmarks is, generally, the balls that pitch at the front and roll out to the back.
Players of all skills and ages automatically go straight to the back where the ball is...they play out the hole and forget about the pitchmark that could be 20+ yards away.
A lot of the time it's not down to the I can't be bothered brigade..people genuinely forget.
Not an excuse but a reason.


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## banjofred (Dec 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Biggest problem we find with pitchmarks is, generally, the balls that pitch at the front and roll out to the back.
Players of all skills and ages automatically go straight to the back where the ball is...they play out the hole and forget about the pitchmark that could be 20+ yards away.
A lot of the time it's not down to the I can't be bothered brigade..people genuinely forget.
Not an excuse but a reason.
		
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Yep, done it myself.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Biggest problem we find with pitchmarks is, generally, the balls that pitch at the front and roll out to the back.
Players of all skills and ages automatically go straight to the back where the ball is...they play out the hole and forget about the pitchmark that could be 20+ yards away.
A lot of the time it's not down to the I can't be bothered brigade..people genuinely forget.
Not an excuse but a reason.
		
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Whilst we are all capable of missing our pitch marks whilst concentrating on our golf if we all simply tried to remember to repair at least one in each hole,  there would not be a problem.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 2, 2022)

Crow said:



			He needs informing that, while the greenkeepers might be expected to rake the bunkers at the start of the day, the club can't afford to employ a team of greenkeepers to stand by the bunkers through the day to rake them after every player has gone in one, so it's his duty to see that they're in a fit state for golfers following him.

If he still doesn't tow the line then stand on his ball whenever it goes in a bunker. 

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He has been in no uncertain terms hence my arrogant so and so.
Up to me I would throw him out he’s had several warnings.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Biggest problem we find with pitchmarks is, generally, the balls that pitch at the front and roll out to the back.
Players of all skills and ages automatically go straight to the back where the ball is...they play out the hole and forget about the pitchmark that could be 20+ yards away.
A lot of the time it's not down to the I can't be bothered brigade..people genuinely forget.
Not an excuse but a reason.
		
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Whilst we are all capable of missing our pitch marks whilst concentrating on our golf if we all simply tried to remember to repair at least one in each hole,  there would not be a problem.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Biggest problem we find with pitchmarks is, generally, the balls that pitch at the front and roll out to the back.
Players of all skills and ages automatically go straight to the back where the ball is...they play out the hole and forget about the pitchmark that could be 20+ yards away.
A lot of the time it's not down to the I can't be bothered brigade..people genuinely forget.
Not an excuse but a reason.
		
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On that note I have informed players who are looking for their pitchmark that it’s 20yds away at the front of the green !
Only to be told “ no mine had loads of spin on its here somewhere” ( two ft from the ball)
I just do it myself ,as Tiger can’t stop a Pinnacle in two foot.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 2, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			On that note I have informed players who are looking for their pitchmark that it’s 20yds away at the front of the green !
Only to be told “ no mine had loads of spin on its here somewhere” ( two ft from the ball)
I just do it myself ,as Tiger can’t stop a Pinnacle in two foot.
		
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Pretty much the same here, after two reminders I move to blatant comments:

“ we all say about the greens and green staff but it’s the lazy INFRACTION’s that are the ones at fault when our greens are poop“

“ do you expect me to do this all round? “

“if I’m caddying for you I want paying “


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 2, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Pretty much the same here, after two reminders I move to blatant comments:

“ we all say about the greens and green staff but it’s the lazy INFRACTION’s that are the ones at fault when our greens are poop“

“ do you expect me to do this all round? “

“if I’m caddying for you I want paying “
		
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Unfortunately they have skins like Rhino’s.


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## Genu9 (Dec 3, 2022)

Kinda got off subject here......


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 3, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Kinda got off subject here......
		
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That tends to happen after 18 pages.


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## Genu9 (Dec 3, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			That tends to happen after 18 pages.
		
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Is that because they don't want to start their own thread on a subject so just jump on someone else's.


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## Genu9 (Dec 3, 2022)

That'll set them off on a new tangent.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 3, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Is that because they don't want to start their own thread on a subject so just jump on someone else's.
		
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Fair enough can’t argue with that.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 4, 2022)

Apparently LIV don’t have a problem with pitch marks from senior has beens



🏃‍♂️to get pop corn!


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## shane3003 (Dec 4, 2022)

I’m just looking at joining a club / changing club (currently PMG points member at Whittlebury Park) after moving to Loughborough. 
What I am noticing in my initial searches, are most have joining fees. Now I’m not sure if these are being reintroduced or not, but when I was looking previously I didn’t see much of this although a different area.

Not to start anyone off, but what do you get for the joining fee or where does that money go?
I have a conflict with paying a joining fee which could be a lack of understanding or knowing I’m probably going to move within the next 12 months.


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2022)

shane3003 said:



			I’m just looking at joining a club / changing club (currently PMG points member at Whittlebury Park) after moving to Loughborough.
What I am noticing in my initial searches, are most have joining fees. Now I’m not sure if these are being reintroduced or not, but when I was looking previously I didn’t see much of this although a different area.

Not to start anyone off, but what do you get for the joining fee or where does that money go?
I have a conflict with paying a joining fee which could be a lack of understanding or knowing I’m probably going to move within the next 12 months.
		
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They're a way of trying to ensure that you're not going to leave in 1-2 years..clubs like people who hang around.
If the subs are, say 1200 quid and the joining fee is 800 then if you leave after a year it makes it an expensive one.
Leave after 16 years and it's cost you 50 quid a year.


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## shane3003 (Dec 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			They're a way of trying to ensure that you're not going to leave in 1-2 years..clubs like people who hang around.
If the subs are, say 1200 quid and the joining fee is 800 then if you leave after a year it makes it an expensive one.
Leave after 16 years and it's cost you 50 quid a year.
		
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That makes sense and I’m probably that guy, thanks for the explanation.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

shane3003 said:



			That makes sense and I’m probably that guy, thanks for the explanation.
		
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Our joining fee is £1200 plus £1200 green fee.
So it’s very expensive outlay.
It’s a sort of ransom to ensure loyalty.
But certain category’s don’t pay it ,under 30 males or females so the club must only expect loyalty from Men over 30 yrs of age.
Imo it’s a by product of days when clubs only wanted affluent members.
They charge it because they can and get it most of the time.


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## Albo (Dec 4, 2022)

It’s pretty much to help clubs retain members and make the most out of people in the good times. When golf in on a downward trajectory joining fees are less frequent (though plenty of places have them regardless), when times are good they are more frequent.
I hate the idea of paying them too as like you prone to move so very reluctant to pay them. It just means certain clubs are out of my options list.
The money I believe goes into the club to be used for improvements or whatnot


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2022)

Ours is done in a way that, if you do leave early, you're not penalised too severely. 
For the first 5 years of membership we pay an extra £200 a year, effectively as a joining fee.
If you leave after a year you're only 200 quid down as opposed to the 1000 that it could have been.
After 5 years subs reduces to the Members Loyalty Rate - £200 quid cheaper.....


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## D-S (Dec 4, 2022)

I certainly wouldn’t pay a joining fee for a proprietary run for profit club where my money might be simply taken by the owner or used to improve/run other clubs in the group. 
However a member’s club where all fees are used solely for the running and improvement of the club and where the vast majority of previous and current members have like wise contributed is a different matter.


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## HPIMG (Dec 4, 2022)

Last year when I joined my first club I payed the joining fee and decided after one year I really didn’t like the club so left. Joined a new club and another joining fee but I do really enjoy the new club a lot better. 
I am guessing clubs have never had a option if you didn’t like the club, you get the joining fee back if you decide to leave in the first year ?


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 4, 2022)

shane3003 said:



			I’m just looking at joining a club / changing club (currently PMG points member at Whittlebury Park) after moving to Loughborough.
What I am noticing in my initial searches, are most have joining fees. Now I’m not sure if these are being reintroduced or not, but when I was looking previously I didn’t see much of this although a different area.

Not to start anyone off, but what do you get for the joining fee or where does that money go?
I have a conflict with paying a joining fee which could be a lack of understanding or knowing I’m probably going to move within the next 12 months.
		
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Looking at two of the better clubs in that area, one charges a joining fee the other doesn't.  The one that doesn't charges a significantly higher annual fee and you would recoup your money inside around two years by joining the club that does charge a joining fee.  In my view, the one charging the joining fee has the better golf course.


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 4, 2022)

I don't agree with joining fees at all.
It's a discriminatory practice from a bye gone age akin to formal interviews & a pre joining round with the Captain & Chairman.

Golf clubs should modernise, the industry needs new players coming along who will enjoy golf as a leisure pursuit like any other hobby or pass time, the majority aren't interested in joining a stuffy old man's club with rules dating from the last century.

On the subject of annual fees, it's really down to where you live & how much you are prepared to part with against how often you play.

Our fees have gone up by 7%
So now in the region of £1200.00 (South West UK) Inc £50.00 bar levy.
If I was working Mon - Fri & only playing on a W/end & the odd summer evening, I'd do a flexible membership.
But as I'm retired now, I get full use out of my 7 day membership & my golf rounds work out at around £5.50 per round


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			I don't agree with joining fees at all.
It's a discriminatory practice from a bye gone age akin to formal interviews & a pre joining round with the Captain & Chairman.

Golf clubs should modernise, the industry needs new players coming along who will enjoy golf as a leisure pursuit like any other hobby or pass time, the majority aren't interested in joining a stuffy old man's club with rules dating from the last century.
		
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In a way it is a discriminatory thing..it bumps up the costs to a point that may be out of reach for some.
But........
Having a joining fee encourages those who do join to stay.
A member who pays his subs, stays a year and leaves to find the next cut price deal is a PITA to a club.
They need to recruit 2 new members to move forward.
The joining fee means members are less likely to leave after a year or 2
It's easier for the club to budget.
I get your point though and, if I'm honest, I've never been a fan of them either.


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## D-S (Dec 4, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			I don't agree with joining fees at all.
It's a discriminatory practice from a bye gone age akin to formal interviews & a pre joining round with the Captain & Chairman.

Golf clubs should modernise, the industry needs new players coming along who will enjoy golf as a leisure pursuit like any other hobby or pass time, the majority aren't interested in joining a stuffy old man's club with rules dating from the last century.

On the subject of annual fees, it's really down to where you live & how much you are prepared to part with against how often you play.

Our fees have gone up by 7%
So now in the region of £1200.00 (South West UK) Inc £50.00 bar levy.
If I was working Mon - Fri & only playing on a W/end & the odd summer evening, I'd do a flexible membership.
But as I'm retired now, I get full use out of my 7 day membership & my golf rounds work out at around £5.50 per round
		
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If all current and previous (for over a hundred years) members have paid them how is it discriminatory? Surely scrapping them would be discriminatory against existing members?


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## IanM (Dec 4, 2022)

D-S said:



			If all current and previous (for over a hundred years) members have paid them how is it discriminatory? Surely scrapping them would be discriminatory against existing members?
		
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.....is what our Board say in response to that question!  Everyone here has paid it.  Also stops membership churn.

Joining fees are dead easy to avoid.


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 4, 2022)

D-S said:



			If all current and previous (for over a hundred years) members have paid them how is it discriminatory? Surely scrapping them would be discriminatory against existing members?
		
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That's exactly the problem I describe.
Clubs stuck in the past & not moving with the times.
Society changes & ideas change all the time, hopefully for the better (although not always I'll admit)
You could say the same about fairness when the Gov keep moving on the state retirement age, that it is discriminatory, but that doesn't stop it happening.
I'm sure there are loads of othe examples of rules & accepted practices changing, but sometimes they have to change for the better.

I get that clubs want to retain their members, which should encourage the club to be the best it can & offer the members a great golfing experience, the majority will then be satisfied to stay at their current club especially in an area like mine where the price differential between clubs is negligible.
To me, those clubs who are charging a joining fee are insecure about the quality they are offering & are wary of members leaving for a club that is offering something better.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

The joining fees paid over the last 3 years helped us provide a fairway irrigation system - anyone joining knows there is one but it’s structured over a 5 year period and the level of joining fee depends on your age - 

As with anything people have a choice , there are always clubs around that don’t charge a joining fee but in our area their yearly fees will be higher or the quality of the golf courses will be lower


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## D-S (Dec 4, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			To me, those clubs who are charging a joining fee are insecure about the quality they are offering & are wary of members leaving for a club that is offering something better.
		
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Generally it is the case that the clubs with a better offer charge joining fees.


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## shane3003 (Dec 4, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Looking at two of the better clubs in that area, one charges a joining fee the other doesn't.  The one that doesn't charges a significantly higher annual fee and you would recoup your money inside around two years by joining the club that does charge a joining fee.  In my view, the one charging the joining fee has the better golf course.
		
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I think I’m going to try and play a round at a few and see which one I enjoy more, then look at the costs side etc. There is a strong chance I won’t be staying in the area so have to give that some thought with the joining fee etc.


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## DaveR (Dec 4, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			To me, those clubs who are charging a joining fee are insecure about the quality they are offering & are wary of members leaving for a club that is offering something better.
		
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Try finding a top 100 club that doesn't have a joining fee.


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## banjofred (Dec 4, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Try finding a top 100 club that doesn't have a joining fee.
		
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Very likely true, but then again I'm the kind of person who wouldn't be comfortable at a top 100 club. Never been to one.....so maybe they are all laid-back easy going places and I have it wrong. 

Think I've mentioned it before, but I think only one course within 10 miles of Harrogate area has a joining fee. Down South however......


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Very likely true, but then again I'm the kind of person who wouldn't be comfortable at a top 100 club. Never been to one.....so maybe they are all laid-back easy going places and I have it wrong. 

Think I've mentioned it before, but I think only one course within 10 miles of Harrogate area has a joining fee. Down South however......
		
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Why would a top 100 club be any different in how they make people feel ? Been comfortable at any top 100 club I have visited - always make you feel like you’re a member for the day which is how every club should work towards visitors


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## banjofred (Dec 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would a top 100 club be any different in how they make people feel ? Been comfortable at any top 100 club I have visited - always make you feel like you’re a member for the day which is how every club should work towards visitors
		
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I've always envisioned the top clubs to be pickier about standards, not about whether they are nice or not.......am I wrong (easily could be I guess)? If the clubs around here had the same rules as they had 20+ years ago (no sport shoes in the clubhouse, no shoe changing in parking lot etc etc) I'd have stopped playing golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I've always envisioned the top clubs to be pickier about standards, not about whether they are nice or not.......am I wrong (easily could be I guess)? If the clubs around here had the same rules as they had 20+ years ago (no sport shoes in the clubhouse, no shoe changing in parking lot etc etc) I'd have stopped playing golf.
		
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I guess if where you can change your shoes and being able to wear trainers is key to your enjoyment of the sport then there will be lots of clubs top 100 or not that won’t be to your liking but I don’t know really know what clubs can allow you to change in the car park as I always change in the changing room where I can get a wash etc


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## banjofred (Dec 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess if where you can change your shoes and being able to wear trainers is key to your enjoyment of the sport then there will be lots of clubs top 100 or not that won’t be to your liking but I don’t know really know what clubs can allow you to change in the car park as I always change in the changing room where I can get a wash etc
		
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You still don't get it, it's not "just" about where I can change my shoes......I give up with you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

banjofred said:



			You still don't get it, it's not "just" about where I can change my shoes......I give up with you.
		
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So what is it then about top 100 clubs that are so off putting ? You mentioned changing shoes 

Instead of being cryptic just spell it out ?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess if where you can change your shoes and being able to wear trainers is key to your enjoyment of the sport then there will be lots of clubs top 100 or not that won’t be to your liking but I don’t know really know what clubs can allow you to change in the car park as I always change in the changing room where I can get a wash etc
		
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Yes this always amazes me 
Why do people want to change in the car park ? 
When you can do it in comfort in the clubhouse.


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## D-S (Dec 4, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I've always envisioned the top clubs to be pickier about standards, not about whether they are nice or not.......am I wrong (easily could be I guess)? If the clubs around here had the same rules as they had 20+ years ago (no sport shoes in the clubhouse, no shoe changing in parking lot etc etc) I'd have stopped playing golf.
		
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Some Top 100 Clubs are like that, some aren’t. Top 100 tends to refer to the course not necessarily the club. However this tangent is about joining fees not Top 100 and that certainly doesn’t preclude changing shoes in the car park or sports shoes in the clubhouse (or even jeans…..shocking to some or not). My club has had a joining fee forever and you can change your shoes in the car park and wear jeans in the clubhouse.


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## DaveR (Dec 4, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Very likely true, but then again I'm the kind of person who wouldn't be comfortable at a top 100 club. Never been to one.....so maybe they are all laid-back easy going places and I have it wrong. 

Think I've mentioned it before, but I think only one course within 10 miles of Harrogate area has a joining fee. Down South however......
		
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Some clubs are stuffier than others but that doesn't define if they are top 100 or not. I've been into top clubs that are really laid back, I've been into very average clubs that are right up their own arses. Try going to one, you might be in for a pleasant surprise.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes this always amazes me 
Why do people want to change in the car park ? 
When you can do it in comfort in the clubhouse.
		
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Inefficient use of time.


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## patricks148 (Dec 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Inefficient use of time.
		
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I'd agree life's too short to be buggering around sometimes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Inefficient use of time.
		
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How much extra time does it take to change shoes in a changing room 🤷‍♂️ just combine it with going to the changing room when washing your hands or face etc when finishing the round


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## Steve Wilkes (Dec 4, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes this always amazes me
Why do people want to change in the car park ?
When you can do it in comfort in the clubhouse.
		
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My Club's great, it doesn't have a car park!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How much extra time does it take to change shoes in a changing room 🤷‍♂️ just combine it with going to the changing room when washing your hands or face etc when finishing the round
		
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And before...........it's an unnecessary faff for me, and most other golfers. Fine for those who want to do that, no one is stopping you. Each to their own.


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## DaveR (Dec 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			And before...........it's an unnecessary faff for me, and most other golfers. Fine for those who want to do that, no one is stopping you. Each to their own.
		
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Are you for real? You spend 4 hours on a golf course but don't have enough time to walk from the carpark to the changing rooms to put your shoes on 

I paid a joining fee when I joined my club, I estimate it has added around 50p a round to my costs. Small price to pay.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			And before...........it's an unnecessary faff for me, and *most other golfers. *Fine for those who want to do that, no one is stopping you. Each to their own.
		
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Really 🤷‍♂️ seems it’s more the minority that seemed to be bothered about changing shoes being an issue , we can change in car park yet most seem to use the changing room , and seems the way from any club I visit. 

As someone said earlier it’s seems a strange thing that people get hung up on - at most it’s prob 5 mins in total out of 4 plus hours that most spend at a golf club. I don’t think I have ever come across anyone who is that worried or annoyed etc about changing shoes in a locker room apart from the handful ( at most ) on here that appear every time.


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## hovis (Dec 4, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Are you for real? You spend 4 hours on a golf course but don't have enough time to walk from the carpark to the changing rooms to put your shoes on 

I paid a joining fee when I joined my club, I estimate it has added around 50p a round to my costs. Small price to pay.
		
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The club house isn't always next to the 1st tee.  I go from car to tee.   I don't want to faff around finding an "acceptable" place to change my shoes.  Open boot, slip on golf shoes and off I go.

As for joining fee. Good for you. You stayed and it works out cheap.  Some people like freedom of choice and not held at financial randsom.     Ironically if the clubs near me didn't charge joining fee they would have made money from the 4 of us because we would just bounce between  3 different clubs each year.    Because they don't the one club that doesn't charge joining fee gets all the money 🤷‍♂️.  Funny old world


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## DaveR (Dec 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			The club house isn't always next to the 1st tee.  I go from car to tee.   I don't want to faff around finding an "acceptable" place to change my shoes.  Open boot, slip on golf shoes and off I go.

As for joining fee. Good for you. You stayed and it works out cheap.  Some people like freedom of choice and not held at financial randsom.     Ironically if the clubs near me didn't charge joining fee they would have made money from the 4 of us because we would just bounce between  3 different clubs each year.    Because they don't the one club that doesn't charge joining fee gets all the money 🤷‍♂️.  Funny old world
		
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I suspect in the current environment the club with the joining fee is full so it gets maximum annual subs PLUS joining fees so I doubt it is missing your business.


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## upsidedown (Dec 4, 2022)

I'd said from our changing room only about 10 % would be changing their shoes in there .
Due to nature of our layout not surprised. From my experience playing around the country the car park is pretty much the place now and include the 3 national events I played in


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## hovis (Dec 4, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I suspect in the current environment the club with the joining fee is full so it gets maximum annual subs PLUS joining fees so I doubt it is missing your business.
		
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I don't doubt it either.  The clubs had zero joining fee (or very small amount) pre covid so it'll come full circle soon.    I always find the attitude of "well, we don't need your business as we're full" very interesting.    Says a lot about the club and more about the members that follow like sheep.   
Imagine a company or business that make you pay a substantial amount of money just so you can give them even more money.  If you want to leave then your down 1/2k😁. 
Only golfers are so stupid.

Why not have a price for golf membership with joining fee or a price for a annual membership without a joining fee.  🤷‍♂️


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

Steve Wilkes said:



			My Club's great, it doesn't have a car park!!
		
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Where do you park your car.?


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## patricks148 (Dec 4, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			I'd said from our changing room only about 10 % would be changing their shoes in there .
Due to nature of our layout not surprised. From my experience playing around the country the car park is pretty much the place now and include the 3 national events I played in
		
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I think pre covid the majority of members at mine, would have used the locker rooms to change shoes, but now all but a few just change at their cars while getting the clubs out. Even guys that have clubs in lockers and use electric trolleys change shoes at the car.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Inefficient use of time.
		
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Really ?
It’s difficult to change shoes and socks standing up.
Plus very uncomfortable if you put your foot down on loose tarmac.
Easy sitting on a bench.
We have to pass the changing room to get to the tee.
Do you change in the car park when it’s pissing down ?
Like the flag debate how much time is lost here just going through one door.


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## hovis (Dec 4, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Really ?
It’s difficult to change shoes and socks standing up.
Plus very uncomfortable if you put your foot down on loose tarmac.
Easy sitting on a bench.
.
		
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Maybe for you.  Perhaps Lord Tyrion and others are at a younger age where changing shoes standing up isn't even a consideration.

For me it's not just about the time.  It's just another little rule that clubs like to impose to show they have control over all the little sheep that they shepherd


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I think pre covid the majority of members at mine, would have used the locker rooms to change shoes, but now all but a few just change at their cars while getting the clubs out. Even guys that have clubs in lockers and use electric trolleys change shoes at the car.
		
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Same at mine .
I suppose it’s what you prefer 
We had a hard rule “no changing shoes in the car park” pre Covid. Mainly because the car park was covered in loose grass and mud where guys just banged their shoes together after playing, even though there is a air hose for this.
But that’s gone now for good I think.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Maybe for you.  Perhaps Lord Tyrion and others are at a younger age where changing shoes standing up isn't even a consideration.
		
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Yes that’s a fact.

Just for information it was explained to me that the rule originated when metal spikes were the norm.
These damaged the car park surface and was why there was a ban.

Now metal spikes are banned at most courses as they spike the greens. So full circle if true!

Some clubs banned it because of the noise of metal spikes if any tees/ greens were close to the car park.

Imo you can do what you like , but saying it saves time is a bit of a joke!


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## Pants (Dec 4, 2022)

I really can't believe that there are so many people on here that are so far up their own backsides that they would dismiss the idea of joining a particular club (or so they say!) just because that club has a "no changing shoes in car park" policy.

Actually, I've just checked my list and out of over 80 different courses I've played that are within an hour or so drive on a good day, (yes I'm a bit of a nerd and also live in an area rich in golf courses) I'm hard pressed to remember if any of them had/have that policy.  

I really feel sorry for you poor folk who only have the choice of a couple of courses locally to join, say one so so course without the shoe policy and one great course that has.


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## Steve Wilkes (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Where do you park your car.?
		
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In the street outside the gate


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## Imurg (Dec 5, 2022)

If you change your shoes in the locker room and leave them there while you get a bite and a beer...its extremely easy to forget them.
Happened to me and CVG when we played The Springs in the summer.
Changed in the locker room, went to the patio for drinks  went a different way back to the car and got half a mile up the road before we remembered..
I just don't see an issue with changing shoes anywhere you like...especially as some " visitors" car parks are a considerable distance from the clubhouse..


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

Pants said:



			I really can't believe that there are so many people on here that are so far up their own backsides that they would dismiss the idea of joining a particular club (or so they say!) just because that club has a "no changing shoes in car park" policy.

Actually, I've just checked my list and out of over 80 different courses I've played that are within an hour or so drive on a good day, (yes I'm a bit of a nerd and also live in an area rich in golf courses) I'm hard pressed to remember if any of them had/have that policy. 

I really feel sorry for you poor folk who only have the choice of a couple of courses locally to join, say one so so course without the shoe policy and one great course that has.  

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You don't get it......it's not just a "shoe rule", it's about having *a lot of little rules* that just don't need to be there. If you were to give me the choice of a somewhat nicer club that had millions of little rules (yes, changing shoes outside, only white socks, jacket in the clubhouse, etc etc) or a club that isn't quite as nice but more relaxed on trying to control your every move........I'd take the more laid-back club. If the *only choice* I had was between an uptight club (but with great playing conditions) with millions of rules controlling everything, or a club that was in lousy condition with no silly rules......I'd stop playing golf. Others might choose differently, and that's ok.....there's nothing wrong with that. So many people on this site just won't accept that someone else has a different opinion. I changed clubs this year, not because I was overly unhappy at the other clubs, but because the club I joined this year is a lot closer. The club I would have stayed at was a 25 minute drive......friendly club, no silly rules that I know of.....just too far. 25 min drive (sometimes more) or about 8 minutes......

I just paid almost £1200 for a years membership at a fitness club near the golf course (with an evil joining fee) that has a nice weights, cardio, pool, tennis courts etc etc. I finally got desperate from a hip issue I've been fighting for a couple of months. After less than a week, the hip is already getting better......it's worth the cost to me. Others?.....no way they would pay that much, and I'd been putting it off for 6 months because *I* didn't want to pay that much.

As far as the original topic, our membership doesn't come up for renewal until 1 April, so I imagine that I won't hear anything solid until at least January. As I posted before (and somebody else mentioned their club had the same thinking), one of the choices that seems to be on the table is for maybe no rise in rates, or a very small one....with the thinking that they might pad out the membership more from people leaving other clubs that will raise their rates quite a bit. It's a valid theory, no idea if it would work.


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## HPIMG (Dec 5, 2022)

My club has the no shoe changing in car park rule but it’s more down to a problem they had in the summer with people trying to skip on the course. So they asked all members to use the locker room to change shoes so they could see on cctv better if people skipped on. Saying that guy I play with every week completely ignores the rule and changes at his car.


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Interesting one the changing shoes in the car park.
I have never been a member of a club that has this rule, nor from memory played at a course that has it (though I may be wrong there).  It’s not a rule I’d like if it were in place anywhere I play though.
The talk of time saving or not, I’d argue that, certainly for me, as a working father, the amount of times I turn up with little to no time to tee time that having to find my card walk into the club house, in to the changing rooms, change shoes and back out again I’d likely either miss my tee time or limit the number of warm up swings I have from a dozen to zero!  As for spending 4 hours at the course and what’s another 3 minutes at each end of that, if the rounds at any course I was a member at were regularly 4 hours I’d have left long before a shoe changing rule forced me out


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Are you for real? You spend 4 hours on a golf course but don't have enough time to walk from the carpark to the changing rooms to put your shoes on 

I paid a joining fee when I joined my club, I estimate it has added around 50p a round to my costs. Small price to pay.
		
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You seem to get angry very easily.  Why stress out over something other people do that has no impact on you? I don't worry about you changing shoes in the changing room, why does it bother you where I change them?

In terms of time wasted etc, it's my choice what I do with my time. If I choose not to criss cross and double back on myself just to change shoes, I'm pretty relaxed about that decision.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Really ?
It’s difficult to change shoes and socks standing up.
Plus very uncomfortable if you put your foot down on loose tarmac.
Easy sitting on a bench.
We have to pass the changing room to get to the tee.
Do you change in the car park when it’s pissing down ?
Like the flag debate how much time is lost here just going through one door.
		
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Unless it's an away trip and I'm having a tea/coffee first, I'll drive and arrive in my golf shoes. Gear out, walk to the tee etc. Afterwards, as someone else has already pointed out, I don't yet struggle to change stood up. When that happens I'll make that walk to the changing room. Until then I'm not actually seeing a reason why it matters whether I change my shoes in location A or location B. Why does it bother anyone else?

When it's chucking down, boot lid up for protection gear packed away, shoes changed under the lid. Never been an issue yet 🤷‍♂️


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## IanM (Dec 5, 2022)

I took @banjofred 's point as wanting to feel comfortable and welcome when you go somewhere. I get that.

 I'd dress up for a posh restaurant,  so if somewhere special has old school rules, so be it.

These places are full for a reason!


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## Bdill93 (Dec 5, 2022)

I've no issue with using changing rooms at a top club (I used them at Hayling post round but did changed into my shoes in the car park) but id laugh your face off if you ever went and changed your shoes in the clubhouse at my place. You'd be the only one in there looking a pretty sad bloke. 

Its horses for courses, some places have these rules, some don't, id never break rules as a visitor but at my home club nah


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Steve Wilkes said:



			In the street outside the gate
		
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Very unusual for a golf club not to have a car park.
Even pubs have them and your not supposed to drink and drive,


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Think the point got missed or changed along the way

Someone mentioned that clubs only have joining fees to keep members at their club because they are worried their product isn’t good enough - that was countered by someone mentioning that many and prob all top 100 clubs have a joining fee of some sorts

It was then said that someone wouldn’t feel comfortable at a top 100 club anyway and a reason why was in regards changing shoes in car park or trainers etc and it’s stems from that - other little rules were also added

So just to point out that 99% of the top 100 clubs are very welcoming to people , they don’t have all those little rules - jackets , sock colour etc. It would be a shame for people to miss out on playing some of the best courses in the world because of the colour socks they can’t wear or they have to wear a pair of shoes in the clubhouse

As for changing shoes in the car park - each to their own , if people want to just finish jump in car and go then away you go. As for saving time - is it really that much in the grand scheme , guess depends. Even if I’m going straight off after finishing golf the one thing I’ll always do is pop into the clubhouse to wash my hands - surely everyone does that , whilst there give the shoes a quick clean and away we go - even more so in the current weather where it’s cold and raining , pop into the dry warm clubhouse and get yourself sorted - I couldn’t have wet muddy shoes in my car , wouldn’t help the shoes anyway.



Bdill93 said:



			I've no issue with using changing rooms at a top club (I used them at Hayling post round but did changed into my shoes in the car park) but id laugh your face off if you ever went and changed your shoes in the clubhouse at my place. You'd be the only one in there looking a pretty sad bloke.

Its horses for courses, some places have these rules, some don't, id never break rules as a visitor but at my home club nah
		
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Why would you laugh at someone who uses a locker room to change their shoes 🤷‍♂️ and why would someone look a sad bloke 🤷‍♂️ very strange


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You seem to get angry very easily.  Why stress out over something other people do that has no impact on you? I don't worry about you changing shoes in the changing room, why does it bother you where I change them?

In terms of time wasted etc, it's my choice what I do with my time. If I choose not to criss cross and double back on myself just to change shoes, I'm pretty relaxed about that decision.
		
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I'm not stressed or angry, I find it highly amusing some of the crap excuses people come up with to try to justify their point of view.

"Darling I'm going to play golf, by the time I drive there and back I'll be 5 hours"

"Darling I'm going to play golf, by the time I drive there and back and walk to the changing rooms I'll be 5 hours and 2 minutes"

😂😂😂


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

IanM said:



			I took @banjofred 's point as wanting to feel comfortable and welcome when you go somewhere. I get that.

*I'd dress up for a posh restaurant*,  so if somewhere special has old school rules, so be it.

These places are full for a reason!
		
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That kind of helps make my point.....I wouldn't go to a posh restaurant, I get uncomfortable in those situations. Same reason I don't go to golf evenings, they want you to wear a jacket and tie etc.....no thanks. I find it hard to "mingle" in social events. I'm a hermit. One of the reasons I golf is to get me out and be sociable.

As had been brought up earlier (on this thread?), there are people like me who would be more than happy with a decent golf course and just a simple building with a bathroom and a pro shop that could sell a soda or candy bar to me. Are there any golf courses out there like that? I know there is a pay+play course at Spofforth near Harrogate, usually in bad shape during the winter. It could be a decent golf course if they put some money into it, but all it had last time I was there (3 years?) was a small building that had a bathroom, desk to take money and sell sandwiches/drinks, and a small area to sit in. But if something like that was improved and made into a members course.....couldn't they charge a lot less for membership since they wouldn't have to deal with maintaining a large building? The last clubs where I was a member had almost the same clubhouse....reasonably small,(well, not all that small, but boxy and simple) but I would think also reasonably easy to maintain/upkeep. The current club is a lot bigger/older building....*.must be a money sucker.*


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unless it's an away trip and I'm having a tea/coffee first, I'll drive and arrive in my golf shoes. Gear out, walk to the tee etc. Afterwards, as someone else has already pointed out, I don't yet struggle to change stood up. When that happens I'll make that walk to the changing room. Until then I'm not actually seeing a reason why it matters whether I change my shoes in location A or location B. Why does it bother anyone else?

When it's chucking down, boot lid up for protection gear packed away, shoes changed under the lid. Never been an issue yet 🤷‍♂️
		
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I am not criticising anyone it’s up to you/ them what you do with your time totally agree.
But if your late on the tee because your shoelace snapped your not giving yourself enough time.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Think the point got missed or changed along the way

Someone mentioned that clubs only have joining fees to keep members at their club because they are worried their product isn’t good enough - that was countered by someone mentioning that many and prob all top 100 clubs have a joining fee of some sorts

It was then said that someone wouldn’t feel comfortable at a top 100 club anyway and a reason why was in regards changing shoes in car park or trainers etc and it’s stems from that - other little rules were also added

So just to point out that 99% of the top 100 clubs are very welcoming to people , they don’t have all those little rules - jackets , sock colour etc. It would be a shame for people to miss out on playing some of the best courses in the world because of the colour socks they can’t wear or they have to wear a pair of shoes in the clubhouse

As for changing shoes in the car park - each to their own , if people want to just finish jump in car and go then away you go. As for saving time - is it really that much in the grand scheme , guess depends. Even if I’m going straight off after finishing golf the one thing I’ll always do is pop into the clubhouse to wash my hands - surely everyone does that , whilst there give the shoes a quick clean and away we go - even more so in the current weather where it’s cold and raining , pop into the dry warm clubhouse and get yourself sorted - I couldn’t have wet muddy shoes in my car , wouldn’t help the shoes anyway.



Why would you laugh at someone who uses a locker room to change their shoes 🤷‍♂️ and why would someone look a sad bloke 🤷‍♂️ very strange
		
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Because our changing room is literally the clubs dumping ground  you'd be in there with about 2000 old clubs 50 used bags and you'd be alone  My course is absolutely miles from what you guys around London play, and the vast majority of the forum. 

My clubs owners have destroyed the feel of our clubhouse, through a number of actions, no one wants to spend longer in there than they need to. 

You're welcome to come play it for yourself - you'll walk away agreeing with me though


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm not stressed or angry, I find it highly amusing some of the crap excuses people come up with to try to justify their point of view.

"Darling I'm going to play golf, by the time I drive there and back I'll be 5 hours"

"Darling I'm going to play golf, by the time I drive there and back and walk to the changing rooms I'll be 5 hours and 2 minutes"

😂😂😂
		
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Life is full of 5 minutes, we choose what we do with them. If I see a point to something I will do it, if I don't then I won't. Why lose 5 minutes that could be spent doing something that I see, not everyone, as a better use of those 5 minutes. We are all making those choice constantly.


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

I hadn't checked this topic for a while, I didn't realise we'd moved onto to discussing where we change our shoes again. I've been missing out!

In summary, telling an adult person where they must change their shoes is petty and dumb. That's about it really.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Because our changing room is literally the clubs dumping ground  you'd be in there with about 2000 old clubs 50 used bags and you'd be alone  My course is absolutely miles from what you guys around London play, and the vast majority of the forum.

My clubs owners have destroyed the feel of our clubhouse, through a number of actions, no one wants to spend longer in there than they need to.

You're welcome to come play it for yourself - you'll walk away agreeing with me though 

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Anything left in our changing rooms overnight is put in a lost property container.
If you don’t claim it within a mouth it’s disposed of ( don’t know where)


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## Bdill93 (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Anything left in our changing rooms overnight is put in a lost property container.
If you don’t claim it within a mouth it’s disposed of ( don’t know where)
		
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This isn't peoples stuff - its the clubs. Inherited over the years etc and all dumped in the changing rooms because they aren't used/ its the only place left to dump it all. 

Every club is different, mine just isn't one where you change your shoes inside. You'd look a real wally if you did - and I like it that way.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			This isn't peoples stuff - its the clubs. Inherited over the years etc and all dumped in the changing rooms because they aren't used/ its the only place left to dump it all.

Every club is different, mine just isn't one where you change your shoes inside. You'd look a real wally if you did - and I like it that way.
		
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Right miss understood.
That’s not great.


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## IanM (Dec 5, 2022)

banjofred said:



			That kind of helps make my point.....I wouldn't go to a posh restaurant, I get uncomfortable in those situations. Same reason I don't go to golf evenings, they want you to wear a jacket and tie etc.....no thanks. I find it hard to "mingle" in social events. I'm a hermit. One of the reasons I golf is to get me out and be sociable.

As had been brought up earlier (on this thread?), there are people like me who would be more than happy with a decent golf course and just a simple building with a bathroom and a pro shop that could sell a soda or candy bar to me. Are there any golf courses out there like that? I know there is a pay+play course at Spofforth near Harrogate,
		
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I know the feeling, you do what makes you feel comfortable. People are all different, clubs are all different.  Find one that suits.   Equally, any new group is a bit daunting at first!   

Do they actually call coke and chocs, "soda and candy" in Harrogate now?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I hadn't checked this topic for a while, I didn't realise we'd moved onto to discussing where we change our shoes again. I've been missing out!

In summary, telling an adult person where they must change their shoes is petty and dumb. That's about it really.
		
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As with most of the petty rules that golf seems to attract. They are there to make those that like to enforce them feel as though they have something important to defend. It gives them the feeling or illusion of power and control.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I hadn't checked this topic for a while, I didn't realise we'd moved onto to discussing where we change our shoes again. I've been missing out!

In summary, telling an adult person where they must change their shoes is petty and dumb. That's about it really.
		
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Yes there were reasons in the past ( metal spikes) post 402.
But with modern shoes I see no reason for it.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Right miss understood.
That’s not great.
		
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Nah its rubbish! I could rant all day about the owners but I wont


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Just one thing that occurred to me with guys who can’t waste a few minutes of their busy lives popping into the changing rooms to put on their shoes.
How much time do you spend on this forum telling us you don’t like wasting time??


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes there were reasons in the past ( metal spikes) post 402.
But with modern shoes I see no reason for it.
		
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Agreed. But then, a lot of these petty rules are 50+ years outdated and golf clubs are loath to change them for fear of losing 'traditions'.


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just one thing that occurred to me with guys who can’t waste a few minutes of their busy lives popping into the changing rooms to put on their shoes.
How much time do you spend on this forum telling us you don’t like wasting time??

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Brilliant 👏 👏 👏 👏 😂😂😂


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Agreed. But then, a lot of these petty rules are 50+ years outdated and golf clubs are loath to change them for fear of losing 'traditions'.
		
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Some yes but I can’t remember the last one I played.
Vast majority now know the customer is always right.


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just one thing that occurred to me with guys who can’t waste a few minutes of their busy lives popping into the changing rooms to put on their shoes.
How much time do you spend on this forum telling us you don’t like wasting time??

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It's not time alone though, it's pointlessness. It would be like if I saw you about to put something in a bin and I said you can't use that bin, you have to use the other bin which is 3 minutes walk away. You'd question why I was wasting your time then I'm sure.


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Life is full of 5 minutes, we choose what we do with them. If I see a point to something I will do it, if I don't then I won't. Why lose 5 minutes that could be spent doing something that I see, not everyone, as a better use of those 5 minutes. We are all making those choice constantly.
		
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Congratulations on being able to account for every minute of your life 👍


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			It's not time alone though, it's pointlessness. It would be like if I saw you about to put something in a bin and I said you can't use that bin, you have to use the other bin which is 3 minutes walk away. You'd question why I was wasting your time then I'm sure.
		
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Is it a recycling bin ? I could see the logic then!


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I hadn't checked this topic for a while, I didn't realise we'd moved onto to discussing where we change our shoes again. I've been missing out!

In summary, telling an adult person where they must change their shoes is petty and dumb. That's about it really.
		
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Not really, if someone doesn't use the air hose to clean their shoes when they come off the course all sorts of mud and crap gets deposited in the car park. Then the club has to pay someone to clean it up.


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Not really, if someone doesn't use the air hose to clean their shoes when they come off the course all sorts of mud and crap gets deposited in the car park. Then the club has to pay someone to clean it up.
		
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I don't use those things because I cannot stand the noise. It's like my version of fingernails on a blackboard. When I do bash my shoes together for the mud though I generally walk over to the nearest grass verge to do so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I hadn't checked this topic for a while, I didn't realise we'd moved onto to discussing where we change our shoes again. I've been missing out!

In summary, telling an adult person where they must change their shoes is petty and dumb. That's about it really.
		
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Surely it depends on the reason why ? 

For example if clubs have seen that people are making a mess around their car when they clean their shoes they would rather not see that 

but as with everything in life there are rules that an establishment would like to have in place and it’s up to the adults to abide by those rules or go elsewhere 

I’m not a fan of wearing socks up to my knees but if it’s a club that I want to play then I’ll abide by that rule 🤷‍♂️ - that’s the adult way to act , there will always be a golf course that suits everyone’s needs and what rules they want to follow or not follow 

It’s the same with restaurants, clubs , shops etc - they all have rules of some sort

Life is full of choices - the initial point was about not judging a whole bunch of clubs based on preconceived ideas


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## Pants (Dec 5, 2022)

banjofred said:



			You don't get it......
		
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Oh.  I do get it BF.  I really do.  We are all different and all welcome to our opinions but, imo, this has really been blown up out of all proportion and has almost no relevance to the OP.

And for those of us who change our shoes in the car park but have difficulty getting them on without ruining the backs of them, here's one answer ..


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2022)

Pants said:



			Oh.  I do get it BF.  I really do.  We are all different and all welcome to our opinions but, imo, this has really been blown up out of all proportion and has almost no relevance to the OP.

And for those of us who change our shoes in the car park but have difficulty getting them on without ruining the backs of them, here's one answer ..

View attachment 45446

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Why would you need to spank someone in the car park?


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## 2blue (Dec 5, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Our joining fee is £1200 plus £1200 green fee.
So it’s very expensive outlay.
It’s a sort of ransom to ensure loyalty.
But certain category’s don’t pay it ,under 30 males or females so the club must only expect loyalty from Men over 30 yrs of age.
Imo* it’s a by product of days when clubs only wanted affluent members.*
They charge it because they can and get it most of the time.
		
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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it depends on the reason why ?

*For example if clubs have seen that people are making a mess around their car when they clean their shoes they would rather not see that*

but as with everything in life there are rules that an establishment would like to have in place and it’s up to the adults to abide by those rules or go elsewhere

*I’m not a fan of wearing socks up to my knees but if it’s a club that I want to play then I’ll abide by that rule 🤷‍♂️ - that’s the adult way to act , there will always be a golf course that suits everyone’s needs and what rules they want to follow or not follow*

It’s the same with restaurants, clubs , shops etc - they all have rules of some sort

Life is full of choices - the initial point was about not judging a whole bunch of clubs based on preconceived ideas
		
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No different to mud coming off my trolley, unless you want me to fold that down in the changing room as well? And would they really rather have mud all over the changing rooms instead of the car park? At least the car park is outdoors.

I know you're a military man but not all of us are into following rules for the sake of rules, that's all. A rule should have logic and reason behind it. And of course we can choose to ignore clubs based on their rules - I assumed that was how the topic went in this direction in the first place.


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## D-S (Dec 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would you need to spank someone in the car park?
		
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As you should know, spanking isn’t allowed in the car park - that’s what the changing rooms are for.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			No different to mud coming off my trolley, unless you want me to fold that down in the changing room as well? And would they really rather have mud all over the changing rooms instead of the car park? At least the car park is outdoors.

I know you're a military man but not all of us are into following rules for the sake of rules, that's all. A rule should have logic and reason behind it. And of course we can choose to ignore clubs based on their rules - I assumed that was how the topic went in this direction in the first place.
		
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That’s why clubs provide areas for people to clean their trollies and shoes so that the mud and dirt etc is all in one place making it easier to clean up - i would expect any self respecting person to use that area 

I follow rules because imo that’s just being respectful, I would hope most grown up adults would follow the rules set out by an establishment when they are visiting - is that not just basic respect and human decency, or is respect something that is getting rare these days. 

I would hope when you visit somewhere you would follow the rules they set out as opposed to just ignoring them because you don’t like them


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2022)

I’m guessing that the ‘no change shoes in car park’ came from days of metal spikes.  Plus my Bristol club had it back when I was a member 80s-mid90s, damage to tarmac paths to clubhouse and 1st tee I assume,  plus our 10th tee was immediately adjacent to car park so non-members could change in car park and jump on the course without paying. Change in clubhouse you had to walk past pro-shop window so pro could spot non-members.

These days I tend to change in car park as it’s ok, though tbh when I do I can feel a bit awkward and so often don’t, but I would always change in clubhouse if my clubs or shoes and other gear was in a locker…but we don’t have lockers.


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s why clubs provide areas for people to clean their trollies and shoes so that the mud and dirt etc is all in one place making it easier to clean up - i would expect any self respecting person to use that area

I follow rules because imo that’s just being respectful, I would hope most grown up adults would follow the rules set out by an establishment when they are visiting - is that not just basic respect and human decency, or is respect something that is getting rare these days.

I would hope when you visit somewhere you would follow the rules they set out as opposed to just ignoring them because you don’t like them
		
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Following rule and questioning rules are 2 totally different things. It is perfectly feasible to question rules and to even ridicule them whilst still following them.

That said, change, comes from challenging and questioning the establishment and abhorrent  rules and opionions impost by golf clubs have sometimes only changed because people take a stand on them, question them and sometimes intentionally breach them. Changing shoes is really a nothing one way or the other but yes, if I am asked to change in the changing room then I will but the club has to do their bit. If I am a visitor, the club needs to make the rule clear in the car park and not simply be publicised by someone running over yelling and shouting. The club needs to make it clear where the changing rooms are, the club needs to let me know how to get the door code etc. As a visitor, changing in the car park is often just easier because clubs make finding and accessing the changing room difficult. 

As for the mantra of 'if you don' like it don't play there', that is exactly what I did and I stopped being a member in part  based on the petty attittudes and, if truth be told, 70's social views, that I found around golf clubs. All of that meant I spent at little time as I could at the club off the course and so that, coupled with paying the most to play once a week meant that membership stopped being a thing that I wanted.


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s why clubs provide areas for people to clean their trollies and shoes so that the mud and dirt etc is all in one place making it easier to clean up - i would expect any self respecting person to use that area

I follow rules because imo that’s just being respectful, I would hope most grown up adults would follow the rules set out by an establishment when they are visiting - is that not just basic respect and human decency, or is respect something that is getting rare these days.

I would hope when you visit somewhere you would follow the rules they set out as opposed to just ignoring them because you don’t like them
		
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I don't respect rules that don't deserve respect. To tell people they can't change their shoes by the car and instead must walk into the building, change their shoes before walking back to their car again is simply putting people out for the sake of faux importance. There are other rules I think are stupid but I would still abide by them because they don't put me out at all - for example removing one's hat indoors. It's no real effort so I'll take my hat off if required even though that's also a pointless rule based on nothing. I draw the line at the shoes though because it takes me about 10 seconds to change them by my car and harms nobody.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't respect rules that don't deserve respect. To tell people they can't change their shoes by the car and instead must walk into the building, change their shoes before walking back to their car again is simply putting people out for the sake of faux importance. There are other rules I think are stupid but I would still abide by them because they don't put me out at all - for example removing one's hat indoors. It's no real effort so I'll take my hat off if required even though that's also a pointless rule based on nothing. I draw the line at the shoes though because it takes me about 10 seconds to change them by my car and harms nobody.
		
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Provide working air guns to get off the mud then the shoes will be clean anyways


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## SteveW86 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I don't respect rules that don't deserve respect. To tell people they can't change their shoes by the car and instead must walk into the building, change their shoes before walking back to their car again is simply putting people out for the sake of faux importance. There are other rules I think are stupid but I would still abide by them because they don't put me out at all - for example removing one's hat indoors. It's no real effort so I'll take my hat off if required even though that's also a pointless rule based on nothing. I draw the line at the shoes though because it takes me about 10 seconds to change them by my car and harms nobody.
		
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What if it was cold indoors, so you reeally wanted to wear the hat?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Following rule and questioning rules are 2 totally different things. It is perfectly feasible to question rules and to even ridicule them whilst still following them.
		
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I don’t think anyone said that rules can’t be questioned - there is no issue with that , the long sock rule being an example for me - I think that it’s ridiculous 




			That said, change, comes from challenging and questioning the establishment and abhorrent  rules and opionions impost by golf clubs have sometimes only changed because people take a stand on them, question them and sometimes intentionally breach them. Changing shoes is really a nothing one way or the other but yes, if I am asked to change in the changing room then I will but the club has to do their bit. If I am a visitor, the club needs to make the rule clear in the car park and not simply be publicised by someone running over yelling and shouting. The club needs to make it clear where the changing rooms are, the club needs to let me know how to get the door code etc. As a visitor, changing in the car park is often just easier because clubs make finding and accessing the changing room difficult.

As for the mantra of 'if you don' like it don't play there', that is exactly what I did and I stopped being a member in part  based on the petty attittudes and, if truth be told, 70's social views, that I found around golf clubs. All of that meant I spent at little time as I could at the club off the course and so that, coupled with paying the most to play once a week meant that membership stopped being a thing that I wanted.
		
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As to say people always have options - if you’re a member you have the chance to challenge and change the rules - we have done it over the years with jeans then trainers in the clubhouse etc.

Application of rules - there is always in life those people that will like to exert authority to demean others , mainly just laugh at them.

Sports clubs always have the cliques and the attitudes etc.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sports clubs always have the cliques and the attitudes etc.
		
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Does that include the WhatsApp groups ....


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

The people banging shoes in the car park, why aren't they using the foot blower post round?

The fact changing shoes is being discussed at all means it's an issue.   I personally think people who insist on changing their shoes in the car park (me included) do it to save a little time but speaking from experience the main reason is to resist against the "multiple rule" establishment.

Golf is full of absolute, up their own ass, pompous, stuck up, self important weapons.   I find with all walks of life you find and associate with your own tribe.  The people who love the rules, stick to them and adore them are the people I have described above.  The people changing their shoes behind the car when no one is looking,  having a cheeky little pocket showing on the side of their shorts and wearing non regulation socks are the people I like and associate with.  


I'm sure they would have a list about me too 🤷‍♂️.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



*I don't respect rules that don't deserve respect. *To tell people they can't change their shoes by the car and instead must walk into the building, change their shoes before walking back to their car again is simply putting people out for the sake of faux importance. There are other rules I think are stupid but I would still abide by them because they don't put me out at all - for example removing one's hat indoors. It's no real effort so I'll take my hat off if required even though that's also a pointless rule based on nothing. I draw the line at the shoes though because it takes me about 10 seconds to change them by my car and harms nobody.
		
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I think we have witnessed that plenty of times even when it comes to golf rules.

If you visit a club the basic requirement is to be respectful and follow their rules - if you decide you can’t even do that then don’t be surprised if you get asked to leave and yes that includes clubs that don’t want to see people changing their shoes in the car park - surely you have a least some sort of respect and decency to follow a club rule ?


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think we have witnessed that plenty of times even when it comes to golf rules.

If you visit a club the basic requirement is to be respectful and follow their rules - if you decide you can’t even do that then don’t be surprised if you get asked to leave and yes that includes clubs that don’t want to see people changing their shoes in the car park - surely you have a least some sort of respect and decency to follow a club rule ?
		
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1. No we haven't. 
2. They are more than welcome to ask me to leave if they happen to catch me during the 10 seconds it takes me to change my shoes next to the boot of my car. Any club that would kick someone out over that is not somewhere I'd want to give money to, so it would be something of a mutual agreement ultimately.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			1. No we haven't. 
2. They are more than welcome to ask me to leave if they happen to catch me during the 10 seconds it takes me to change my shoes next to the boot of my car. Any club that would kick someone out over that is not somewhere I'd want to give money to, so it would be something of a mutual agreement ultimately.
		
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Change them in your car, that's your property 😉


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## Orikoru (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Change them in your car, that's your property 😉
		
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I have done that before actually - just sit in the passenger seat and change them there. I do wonder if that's an acceptable loophole or not, lol.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Change them in your car, that's your property 😉
		
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We used to do this just to wind the captain and secretary up.  My "ex club" had a very strick shoe rule


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Provide working air guns to get off the mud then the shoes will be clean anyways
		
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I was a member at my club for 5 months before someone pointed out where the air gun was, it is hidden between buildings with no signs pointing it out . The next issue, on a muddy day, you blow all of the mud off but the mud has to go somewhere. You inevitably still pick up more mud after you have cleaned your shoes and trolleys. Golf is an outdoor sport, mud goes with the territory.


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think anyone said that rules can’t be questioned - there is no issue with that , the long sock rule being an example for me - I think that it’s ridiculous



As to say people always have options - if you’re a member you have the chance to challenge and change the rules - we have done it over the years with jeans then trainers in the clubhouse etc.

Application of rules - there is always in life those people that will like to exert authority to demean others , mainly just laugh at them.

Sports clubs always have the cliques and the attitudes etc.
		
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Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I have done that before actually - just sit in the passenger seat and change them there. I do wonder if that's an acceptable loophole or not, lol.
		
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All the mud collects in your car lol just bang the mat out the door 😉


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Change them in your car, that's your property 😉
		
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For 99% of the golf I play, I put my golf shoes on at home. Some people would have me take a second pair of shoes with me to change in to, just so I could change back in to my golf shoes in the changing rooms! 

Maybe there are hidden cameras in the changing rooms so they can check the colour of your socks?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I have done that before actually - just sit in the passenger seat and change them there. I do wonder if that's an acceptable loophole or not, lol.
		
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On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.
		
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I have to agree.  Not seen in other areas like fishing clubs, skydiving clubs and rugby clubs.    There's one glaringly obvious reason why......... Grumpy old people setting the rules for other people that join and become indoctrinated.  Round and round the wheel we go


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## PieMan (Dec 5, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.
		
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Yeah but these exchanges have been about at the golf club and not at the morning school run..........!!


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have to agree.  Not seen in other areas like fishing clubs, skydiving clubs and rugby clubs.    There's one glaringly obvious reason why......... Grumpy old people setting the rules for other people that join and become indoctrinated.  Round and round the wheel we go
		
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Always found rugby clubs to be run to suit and help everyone and to encourage families and friends to come up as well. Golf clubs I have always felt were being run for the benefit or certain people, families were certainly not welcome, sometimes tolerated and clique and empire building seemed to be an accepted hobby amongst the membership. 

Hell, at more than one rugby club I have changed from rugby kit into full dinner jacket in the car park let alone changed my shoes.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.
		
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As someone deeply involved in rugby, captain, club captain and now coach. Rugby clubs have definitely had a toxic atmosphere in the past, it can be very inclusive people don't care what your colour or sexuality is if you turn up and play. But I have seen and heard some pretty horrible things in the clubhouse, and have been to lunches and dinner with people who played years ago and they can be very toxic.

However the difference is that the new generation of players that now run the club have very much changed that atmosphere. In my club rugby was for the men, they played then went out drinking all night, families were ignored on Saturdays. During my playing days that completely changed and became very family friendly as partners and children all came down, and made the atmosphere much more pleasant.

I guess the difference between rugby and golf, is that golf generally doesn't put the 20-30 year olds in charge so change is very very slow in comparison


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			As someone deeply involved in rugby, captain, club captain and now coach. Rugby clubs have definitely had a toxic atmosphere in the past, it can be very inclusive people don't care what your colour or sexuality is if you turn up and play. But I have seen and heard some pretty horrible things in the clubhouse, and have been to lunches and dinner with people who played years ago and they can be very toxic.

However the difference is that the new generation of players that now run the club have very much changed that atmosphere. In my club rugby was for the men, they played then went out drinking all night, families were ignored on Saturdays. During my playing days that completely changed and became very family friendly as partners and children all came down, and made the atmosphere much more pleasant.

I guess the difference between rugby and golf, is that golf generally doesn't put the 20-30 year olds in charge so change is very very slow in comparison
		
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Fair point. Never found a toxic atmosphere but have seen the change to family friendly places. Agreed, we do have to remind a few of our older, ex players that we live in more enlightened times now and that some attitudes are no longer appropriate but they are picked up for it and questioned about it. As far as social attitudes go, golf clubs remind me of rugby clubs in the 80s. 

What rugby never had was petty rules for the sake of rules, rules that divided people based on background and upbringing and a plethora of armchair generals just looking for the chance to belittle someone by enforcing them. Rugby clubs were run for all the members.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.
		
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I think it’s clear you have had a poor experience at a golf club but I don’t think it’s right to be judging all golf clubs the same - I have witnessed the same poor behaviour at cricket , football and even hockey clubs - it’s not the clubs that are the issue it’s the people in them. There are always cliques etc when there are groups of people in those settings - golf clubs aren’t unique in that way 

Many golf clubs are also working very hard to remove stigma’s associated with golf - there is a reason why the age of members is dropping dramatically over the years and why it’s going through a boom - everything from changing the fees , to access , to making it about families , golf clubs are doing their best to improve 

It’s always a giggle when some really just go a bit overboard when it comes to changing shoes or dress codes etc - it’s as if they are the devil incarnate

I will always wonder what they would do when they visit other places that require dress codes etc


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Fair point. Never found a toxic atmosphere but have seen the change to family friendly places. Agreed, we do have to remind a few of our older, ex players that we live in more enlightened times now and that some attitudes are no longer appropriate but they are picked up for it and questioned about it. As far as social attitudes go, golf clubs remind me of rugby clubs in the 80s.

What rugby never had was petty rules for the sake of rules, rules that divided people based on background and upbringing and a plethora of armchair generals just looking for the chance to belittle someone by enforcing them. Rugby clubs were run for all the members.
		
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Very true, the only rules I can think of are for very good reasons, like don't clean your boots in the shower or sink as it block the drains, bit that's the difference, the rule is for an absolute reason


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it’s clear you have had a poor experience at a golf club but I don’t think it’s right to be judging all golf clubs the same - I have witnessed the same poor behaviour at cricket , football and even hockey clubs - it’s not the clubs that are the issue it’s the people in them. There are always cliques etc when there are groups of people in those settings - golf clubs aren’t unique in that way

Many golf clubs are also working very hard to remove stigma’s associated with golf - there is a reason why the age of members is dropping dramatically over the years and why it’s going through a boom - everything from changing the fees , to access , to making it about families , golf clubs are doing their best to improve

It’s always a giggle when some really just go a bit overboard when it comes to changing shoes or dress codes etc - it’s as if they are the devil incarnate

I will always wonder what they would do when they visit other places that require dress codes etc
		
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Nope, had the same experiece at the 5 golf clubs I have been a member off. With golf I honestly believe that it is the clubs and in many cases, a desire amonngst certain mements to maintain outdated 60s and 70s attitudes in and about golf clubs. I also disagree about the removal of the stigma attached to golf. I have seen much lip service paid to doing something but see plenty who are more than happy that golf remain elitist and that clubhouse remain a bastion of male dominance. In other clubs, if you were out of order, the players would have a word and if you were out of order twice then you would be politely put in the next available taxi. You question attitudes at a golf club and you get shouted down or blackballed as the establishment do not like to be challenged. 

People get het up about these rules as they just support the petty, small minded nature of some people and the establishments involved. We have talked about having to cut fees to attract members under 30, has anyone thought that younger people do not want to be associated with golf clubs for many reasons other than cost.


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			Very true, the only rules I can think of are for very good reasons, like don't clean your boots in the shower or sink as it block the drains, bit that's the difference, the rule is for an absolute reason
		
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I am of an age where we had to tell people not to clean their boots in the bath


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## IanM (Dec 5, 2022)

I am going to start a thread about the possibility of Alien Invasion.  How many pages before that mentions changing shoes in the car park??


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## sunshine (Dec 5, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.
		
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 That is quite a lot of effort to avoid the clubhouse.

What do you do when you need a poo? Just duck down behind your car and quickly curl one out? Or do you find a little grass verge?


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## sunshine (Dec 5, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Life is full of 5 minutes, we choose what we do with them.
		
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I genuinely love this. It is so true. It sounds like a quote from a ted talk.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I genuinely love this. It is so true. It sounds like a quote from a ted talk.
		
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I did worry it sounded a bit pompous but I couldn't think of another way to word it


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nope, had the same experiece at the 5 golf clubs I have been a member off. With golf I honestly believe that it is the clubs and in many cases, a desire amonngst certain mements to maintain outdated 60s and 70s attitudes in and about golf clubs. I also disagree about the removal of the stigma attached to golf. I have seen much lip service paid to doing something but see plenty who are more than happy that golf remain elitist and that clubhouse remain a bastion of male dominance. In other clubs, if you were out of order, the players would have a word and if you were out of order twice then you would be politely put in the next available taxi. You question attitudes at a golf club and you get shouted down or blackballed as the establishment do not like to be challenged.

People get het up about these rules as they just support the petty, small minded nature of some people and the establishments involved. We have talked about having to cut fees to attract members under 30, has anyone thought that younger people do not want to be associated with golf clubs for many reasons other than cost.
		
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Sorry I’ll rephrase- I think it’s clear through the years that you clearly don’t like golf clubs and have had experiences at every one you join. I have only been a member at one and haven’t seen anything different that what you see when groups of blokes get together in any setting - and that’s been at plenty of other sports clubs , if you don’t see it at other clubs then would say you are very lucky , there are certainly been plenty of instances in the news local and National of other sports having the same - racist , sexist etc issues - just look at cricket right now 

I have no doubt you will disagree with clubs trying to remove issues - but I can guarantee that’s it’s happening and there are lots of working streams for clubs to modernise

And yes there have been lots of surveys done talking to people both locally and nationally in regards why under 30’s didn’t play the game and cost , time are the two main reasons 

I know that doesn’t sit with your idea that all golf clubs are the same but poor behaviour isn’t limited to golf clubs. It doesn’t take much searching to see issues within other sports clubs. 

Rules are set within all walks of life - some may seem silly to one person and fine to the next - would always expect the bare minimum to be for someone to respect someone else’s rules providing they don’t break any laws and are not offensive


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I’ll rephrase- I think it’s clear through the years that you clearly don’t like golf clubs and have had experiences at every one you join. I have only been a member at one and haven’t seen anything different that what you see when groups of blokes get together in any setting - and that’s been at plenty of other sports clubs , if you don’t see it at other clubs then would say you are very lucky , there are certainly been plenty of instances in the news local and National of other sports having the same - racist , sexist etc issues - just look at cricket right now

I have no doubt you will disagree with clubs trying to remove issues - but I can guarantee that’s it’s happening and there are lots of working streams for clubs to modernise

And yes there have been lots of surveys done talking to people both locally and nationally in regards why under 30’s didn’t play the game and cost , time are the two main reasons

I know that doesn’t sit with your idea that all golf clubs are the same but poor behaviour isn’t limited to golf clubs. It doesn’t take much searching to see issues within other sports clubs.

Rules are set within all walks of life - some may seem silly to one person and fine to the next - would always expect the bare minimum to be for someone to respect someone else’s rules providing they don’t break any laws and are not offensive
		
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Not sure that 'well others are just as bad as us' is a decent debating point. My experience of golf clubs is that they are the worst for many social aspects but the membership in many cases do not see the problem. As awlays, lost of works streams, lots of meetings, lots of discussions, not much action. You look back at all sorts of threads where the argument is put that golf clubs are private and should be able to so what they want even in the face of mixed membership and other serious issues. 

Rules are set withint all areas of life, I agree but they tend to be for a reason and not of the petty and inconsequential nature at golf clubs and when they are, they are questioned. 

Still, as long as golf clubs want to measure themselves based on other being just as bad as they are (which I disagree wiht, I have never seen worse attitudes to women and families than at golf clubs) then that is fine.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that 'well others are just as bad as us' is a decent debating point. My experience of golf clubs is that they are the worst for many social aspects but the membership in many cases do not see the problem. As awlays, lost of works streams, lots of meetings, lots of discussions, not much action. You look back at all sorts of threads where the argument is put that golf clubs are private and should be able to so what they want even in the face of mixed membership and other serious issues.
		
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I don’t think has even suggested that because issues happen elsewhere that it’s ok for it to happen at a golf - the response was more about the idea that you seem to think issues only happen at golf clubs because you don’t see it at rugby clubs etc 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...-allegations-sexist-toxic-culture-employment/


I don’t believe that clubs can make up rules that are racist etc - certainly don’t see people turned away from clubs because of their race or sex in 99% of clubs because they all have to abide by human rights rules 

I don’t think anyone would be suggesting a members club can do whatever they like and ignore basic equality and human rights 




			Rules are set withint all areas of life, I agree but they tend to be for a reason and not of the petty and inconsequential nature at golf clubs and when they are, they are questioned.
		
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Again no one said people can’t question rules - and rules can be changed if the desire from members is there to change them , I have given you two examples of dress code rules that have changed over the years , that was brought by a member to agm and it was changed , same with changing shoes in car park etc 




			Still, as long as golf clubs want to measure themselves based on other being just as bad as they are (which I disagree wiht, I have never seen worse attitudes to women and families than at golf clubs) then that is fine.
		
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No one has suggested that’s the case more countering your idea that golf clubs are the root of all evil whilst all other sporting establishments don’t have issues of their own 

Society itself still has issues in how people are treated , society also has issues where people are more than happy to ignore the rules and laws


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think has even suggested that because issues happen elsewhere that it’s ok for it to happen at a golf - the response was more about the idea that you seem to think issues only happen at golf clubs because you don’t see it at rugby clubs etc

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...-allegations-sexist-toxic-culture-employment/


I don’t believe that clubs can make up rules that are racist etc - certainly don’t see people turned away from clubs because of their race or sex in 99% of clubs because they all have to abide by human rights rules

I don’t think anyone would be suggesting a members club can do whatever they like and ignore basic equality and human rights



Again no one said people can’t question rules - and rules can be changed if the desire from members is there to change them , I have given you two examples of dress code rules that have changed over the years , that was brought by a member to agm and it was changed , same with changing shoes in car park etc



No one has suggested that’s the case more countering your idea that golf clubs are the root of all evil whilst all other sporting establishments don’t have issues of their own

Society itself still has issues in how people are treated , society also has issues where people are more than happy to ignore the rules and laws
		
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Golf clubs are not the root of all evil, just the worst examples in my experience of attitudes at sporting clubs. 

What are formal rules, what the experience if actualy like and how different members are treated are 3 different things and just because there are no issues with one, does not mean that there are not issues with the others. 

Many on here have suggested that members clubs can do what they want and if you do not like it, leave. 

The fact that some rules exist in the first place is an example of some of the petty minded attitudes in place.


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Not very many years ago I was a member of a work golf society who played at a course in the North West, following the golf we had a sit down meal in one of the function rooms - we had sole use of the function room for our society, there was a single female member of the society, who as we sat down was told the room we were in was a male only room and she would have to sit alone in a separate room, we pointed out the stupidly and sexist nature of what was being said (there were even female servers in the room) to no avail, we had to all decant to a different room where females were allowed.
Are those in this thread advocating that as visitors we should be courteous and abide by rules, saying we should abide by that rule?
Sadly golf is very much still in a bygone era, and yes the above is a one off extreme example but these examples do exist.
Golf needs to modernise if it is to flourish!


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## Pants (Dec 5, 2022)

Comparing where some posters live and the comments made above, based on _my_ experiences of many many golf clubs, the South East of England must be an elightened area of the country.  Perhaps it goes part way to explaining why most members clubs down here have full memberships, can command a joining fee, and are therefore able to invest for the better experience of the members. 

It's the members that make a club what it is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			Not very many years ago I was a member of a work golf society who played at a course in the North West, following the golf we had a sit down meal in one of the function rooms - we had sole use of the function room for our society, there was a single female member of the society, who as we sat down was told the room we were in was a male only room and she would have to sit alone in a separate room, we pointed out the stupidly and sexist nature of what was being said (there were even female servers in the room) to no avail, we had to all decant to a different room where females were allowed.
Are those in this thread advocating that as visitors we should be courteous and abide by rules, saying we should abide by that rule?
Sadly golf is very much still in a bygone era, and yes the above is a one off extreme example but these examples do exist.
Golf needs to modernise if it is to flourish!
		
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First thing is I would hope any society wouldn’t go near a club that has something like that in place - in all my time playing golf I have never seen any club have a “men only” room beyond changing rooms , members only yes but nothing splitting sexes up. Where is this club located ?

and yes it is an extreme example a lifetime away from changing shoes in a car park rule 

There used to be “men only” clubs but believe they have gone in the UK with i think Aberdeen the last club to allow women to join.


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## Jordanti9 (Dec 5, 2022)

Never really heard of being told must change shoes in dressing room and not in car park (always change them in car park) I was playing a comp early in the year, car park was a mud bath, torrential rain. Changing rooms were the other side of the car park. I could only imagine them asking me to change my golf shoes in the changing room, then having to walk all the way across the mud soaked car park in my trainers. Surely common sense must prevail?


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			First thing is I would hope any society wouldn’t go near a club that has something like that in place - in all my time playing golf I have never seen any club have a “men only” room beyond changing rooms , members only yes but nothing splitting sexes up. Where is this club located ?

and yes it is an extreme example a lifetime away from changing shoes in a car park rule

There used to be “men only” clubs but believe they have gone in the UK with i think Aberdeen the last club to allow women to join.
		
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Our society didn’t go back and nor will we regardless of wether they have previously changed the rules.
im not going to highlight the club on an open forum but it was North West England and within the 2000s


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

IanM said:



			I know the feeling, you do what makes you feel comfortable. People are all different, clubs are all different.  Find one that suits.   Equally, any new group is a bit daunting at first!  

Do they actually call coke and chocs, "soda and candy" in Harrogate now?
		
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I have no idea. I live on the edge of town and only go into town if I have to. It's either to Asda (or Morrison/Sainsbury on the other side of Harrogate) or to the golf course, which is in town. If they removed the rest of the town I might not notice
My wife just foams at the mouth every time they mention Betty's on tv....expensive as heck she says.


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

Just back from golf.....this has turned into an almost fun thread......


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## sunshine (Dec 5, 2022)

Jordanti9 said:



			Never really heard of being told must change shoes in dressing room and not in car park (always change them in car park) I was playing a comp early in the year, car park was a mud bath, torrential rain. Changing rooms were the other side of the car park. I could only imagine them asking me to change my golf shoes in the changing room, then having to walk all the way across the mud soaked car park in my trainers. Surely common sense must prevail?
		
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Well the clubs that don't want you changing shoes in the car park wouldn't allow you in the clubhouse wearing trainers anyway, so you'd have to walk across the car park in your socks


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Well the clubs that don't want you changing shoes in the car park wouldn't allow you in the clubhouse wearing trainers anyway, so you'd have to walk across the car park in your socks 

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I played at Lytham last year and was utterly shocked that they would happily have me upstairs in my socks but not trainers


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			I played at Lytham last year and was utterly shocked that they would happily have me upstairs in my socks but not trainers
		
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Truly pathetic

Judging people by their chosen footwear


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			I played at Lytham last year and was utterly shocked that they would happily have me upstairs in my socks but not trainers
		
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Madness!! You could blow holes in my ignorant preconceived opinions about posh clubs.......


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## PieMan (Dec 5, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Just back from golf.....this has turned into an almost fun thread......
		
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Did you change your shoes in the changing room or car park????!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			I played at Lytham last year and was utterly shocked that they would happily have me upstairs in my socks but not trainers
		
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Did you not check the dress code before you went ? It’s clear as day that it says you can’t wear trainers upstairs 🤷‍♂️

“
*2. Dress Code*
*On The Course…*
Please wear smart golf clothing at all times. Golf shoes are to be worn and any shorts should be tailored and knee length.
*Leaving The Course…*
Please remove hats and waterproof clothing in the locker rooms, as they are not allowed upstairs in the Clubhouse.
*In The Clubhouse…*
Please note smart casual/golf attire is essential at all times during your visit to Royal Lytham. Golf shoes, shorts or training shoes are not permitted upstairs in the Clubhouse.”


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## JamesR (Dec 5, 2022)

moogie said:



			Truly pathetic

Judging people by their chosen footwear
		
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In what way is there a judgement about someone based on their footwear?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 5, 2022)

Maybe each club should get some of those shoe covers and insist that they are worn upon entry. This has 2 benefits, firstly the floors would be kept much cleaner and secondly takes away any arguments over what can or cant be worn.


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## IanM (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you not check the dress code before you went ?”
		
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Now there's a radical thought!


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## PieMan (Dec 5, 2022)

If we all have to abide by rules on the course, then surely it's not too difficult to abide by any off the course?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 5, 2022)

PieMan said:



			If we all have to abide by rules on the course, then surely it's not too difficult to abide by any off the course? 

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Rules? I just use common sense and that gets me by


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			In what way is there a judgement about someone based on their footwear?
		
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Of course they're being judged
They're being denied entry

Surely for H&S reasons it's safer to be in footwear rather than just socks anyway   
Which would be a bigger issue

I'm pleased there's more forward thinking clubs 'oop North 
So many stupid rules I read on here,  when all were doing is whacking a little white ball around a big green field

After all,  a pig in a suit,  is still a pig


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you not check the dress code before you went ? It’s clear as day that it says you can’t wear trainers upstairs 🤷‍♂️

“
*2. Dress Code*
*On The Course…*
Please wear smart golf clothing at all times. Golf shoes are to be worn and any shorts should be tailored and knee length.
*Leaving The Course…*
Please remove hats and waterproof clothing in the locker rooms, as they are not allowed upstairs in the Clubhouse.
*In The Clubhouse…*
Please note smart casual/golf attire is essential at all times during your visit to Royal Lytham. Golf shoes, shorts or training shoes are not permitted upstairs in the Clubhouse.”
		
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Nope, I didn’t.
In fairness, if clubs have rules such as this, could they not mention this at the time of booking? They happily take my £300+ for playing yet feel for the fee it’s up to me to check each and every rule they have before I arrive?!?

I actually wasn’t moaning about the rules, rules are rules, more the stupidity that socks are seen as more palatable than training shoes. That I find most odd


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## JamesR (Dec 5, 2022)

moogie said:



			Of course they're being judged
They're being denied entry

Surely for H&S reasons it's safer to be in footwear rather than just socks anyway  
Which would be a bigger issue

I'm pleased there's more forward thinking clubs 'oop North
So many stupid rules I read on here,  when all were doing is whacking a little white ball around a big green field

After all,  a pig in a suit,  is still a pig
		
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The person isn't being judged. All they are doing is saying they don't want people wearing a particular type of shoe. After all, the wealthiest, and most elite members of society, wear trainers sometimes.


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## PieMan (Dec 5, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Rules? I just use common sense and that gets me by
		
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## PieMan (Dec 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			In what way is there a judgement about someone based on their footwear?
		
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It's the first thing I look at! Anyone wearing Nike or Adidas on the course I take an immediate dislike to!!!


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			The person isn't being judged. All they are doing is saying they don't want people wearing a particular type of shoe. After all, the wealthiest, and most elite members of society, wear trainers sometimes.
		
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it is what is called "indirect discrimination"

*when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others*. 

yes well off people can and do wear trainers, but it may also be the case that the poorer players do not own a pair of smart leather shoes as an example


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			Nope, I didn’t.
In fairness, if clubs have rules such as this, could they not mention this at the time of booking? They happily take my £300+ for playing yet feel for the fee it’s up to me to check each and every rule they have before I arrive?!?

I actually wasn’t moaning about the rules, rules are rules, more the stupidity that socks are seen as more palatable than training shoes. That I find most odd
		
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It’s there right in the visitors information 🤷‍♂️

https://www.royallytham.org/terms-and-conditions/

“*It is important that all visitors read these terms and conditions before their visit and that Group Organisers and Agents make them available to each member of their party.”*

surely that’s just common sense ? Every single club has a dress code of some sort and you would expect any visitor to check 

It’s the same when booking restaurants? Theatres , or many other establishments 



moogie said:



			Of course they're being judged
They're being denied entry

Surely for H&S reasons it's safer to be in footwear rather than just socks anyway  
Which would be a bigger issue

I'm pleased there's more forward thinking clubs 'oop North
So many stupid rules I read on here,  when all were doing is whacking a little white ball around a big green field

After all,  a pig in a suit,  is still a pig
		
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Again - do people not need to take a bit of personal responsibility and ensure they arrive at any establishment in the correct attire


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s there right in the visitors information 🤷‍♂️

https://www.royallytham.org/terms-and-conditions/

“*It is important that all visitors read these terms and conditions before their visit and that Group Organisers and Agents make them available to each member of their party.”*

surely that’s just common sense ? Every single club has a dress code of some sort and you would expect any visitor to check

It’s the same when booking restaurants? Theatres , or many other establishments



Again - do people not need to take a bit of personal responsibility and ensure they arrive at any establishment in the correct attire
		
Click to expand...

As I say, at no point was I complaining about the rules, I was more surprised about socks being more acceptable than trainers.
I’ve still not read the rules, but I’m fairly sure it doesn’t say that socks are ok upstairs, though maybe it does.
Regardless it strikes me as very odd for socks to be ok and not trainers, it makes absolutely no sense to me


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s there right in the visitors information 🤷‍♂️

https://www.royallytham.org/terms-and-conditions/

“*It is important that all visitors read these terms and conditions before their visit and that Group Organisers and Agents make them available to each member of their party.”*

surely that’s just common sense ? Every single club has a dress code of some sort and you would expect any visitor to check

It’s the same when booking restaurants? Theatres , or many other establishments



Again - do people not need to take a bit of personal responsibility and ensure they arrive at any establishment in the correct attire
		
Click to expand...

According to the rule you can wear pyjamas in the clubhouse (as long as they have a collar)


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s there right in the visitors information 🤷‍♂️

https://www.royallytham.org/terms-and-conditions/

“*It is important that all visitors read these terms and conditions before their visit and that Group Organisers and Agents make them available to each member of their party.”*

surely that’s just common sense ? Every single club has a dress code of some sort and you would expect any visitor to check

It’s the same when booking restaurants? Theatres , or many other establishments



Again - do people not need to take a bit of personal responsibility and ensure they arrive at any establishment in the correct attire
		
Click to expand...

Also at the time I made the booking I don’t think it’s a lot to ask that they send out the link you just posted with the booking confirmation, it certainly didn’t take you long to post it here.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

So playing golf requires a person to travel with 3 pairs of shoes
1: Trainers or whatever to drive in 
2: golf shoes to play the game
3 shoes to eat dinner in. 

If you think this is OK can you please put your head in the oven to accelerate the process and remove this mindset from golf


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			A rule should have logic and reason behind it. And of course we can choose to ignore clubs based on their rules - I assumed that was how the topic went in this direction in the first place.
		
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The rules do have logic and reason but you just choose not to see it.


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			The rules do have logic and reason but you just choose not to see it.
		
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Please explain the logic and reasoning for saying no to trainers but yes to socks only.  I'm all ears.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			So playing golf requires a person to travel with 3 pairs of shoes
1: Trainers or whatever to drive in 
2: golf shoes to play the game
3 shoes to eat dinner in. 

If you think this is OK can you please put your head in the oven to accelerate the process and remove this mindset from golf
		
Click to expand...

We are very lucky that majority of old golf rules will die out within the next 15 years


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that there are a lot of people on this forum that would be better off taking up a different sport.


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - do people not need to take a bit of personal responsibility and ensure they arrive at any establishment in the correct attire
		
Click to expand...



Or maybe.....just maybe
Some people might have thought golf had joined the 21st century, therefore said person didn't feel the need to check what footwear they put on to go to the golf club that day.......as it shouldn't really matter


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## Crow (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Not really, if someone doesn't use the air hose to clean their shoes when they come off the course all sorts of mud and crap gets deposited in the car park. Then the club has to pay someone to clean it up.
		
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Yes, much better that people go into the changing rooms to dump all their mud and crap.


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Please explain the logic and reasoning for saying no to trainers but yes to socks only.  I'm all ears.
		
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I don't understand, where can you play in socks only?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Please explain the logic and reasoning for saying no to trainers but yes to socks only.  I'm all ears.
		
Click to expand...

It's like the old debate on clothes ... It's not okay to wear certain socks, or trainers 

But you can wear the same old washed out polo shirt and battered chinos for years 

That's fine 

You look like a sack of poo but it's cool


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Crow said:



			Yes, much better that people go into the changing rooms to dump all their mud and crap.
		
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I've never seen an air hose in the changing room, have you?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			We are very lucky that majority of old golf rules will die out within the next 15 years
		
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I don't think it will mate.  logical and normal people join clubs and get radicalised by the old out going 1840's members.


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## D-S (Dec 5, 2022)

Do you think if I started a thread with “Dress Codes - what do you reckon?” we might at least get people (after a few pages of obstinately stated opinions) eventually learning about the amount their subs are increasing by, as I think this might be of interest to golf club members?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I don't understand, where can you play in socks only?
		
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Someone posted situation where they went upstairs for food in socks because trainers weren't allowed.    You posted rules are logical a reasonable.   I want someone to explain the logic in this rules.   Imo it's the right shoes or no entry


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

moogie said:



Or maybe.....just maybe
Some people might have thought golf had joined the 21st century, therefore said person didn't feel the need to check what footwear they put on to go to the golf club that day.......as it shouldn't really matter

Click to expand...

You beat me to it


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Someone posted situation where they went upstairs for food in socks because trainers weren't allowed.    You posted rules are logical a reasonable.   I want someone to explain the logic in this rules.   Imo it's the right shoes or no entry
		
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That was me at Royal Lytham.
I turned up was denied entry to go upstairs in trainers, rightly or wrongly, but the rules exist. They did however happily let me go upstairs in my socks. I just find that odd, really really odd


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Someone posted situation where they went upstairs for food in socks because trainers weren't allowed.    You posted rules are logical a reasonable.   I want someone to explain the logic in this rules.   Imo it's the right shoes or no entry
		
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I agree, I wouldn't expect anyone to go into a clubhouse in just socks. You wouldn't do it in a club, pub or restaurant so why a golf club?


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## woofers (Dec 5, 2022)

Wow, from membership cost increases to joining fees to 6 pages on changing shoes……can we post anything in this thread?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			That was me at Royal Lytham.
I turned up was denied entry to go upstairs in trainers, rightly or wrongly, but the rules exist. They did however happily let me go upstairs in my socks. I just find that odd, really really odd
		
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That's crazy mate.  Utterly crazy.   I can understand if they said no, full stop but to allow you in wearing socks says a lot about the game of golf.  No wonder the non golfing world think we're all stuck up. 

On a different note this reminds me of when we used to put black socks over our trainers to get into night clubs in the 90's.  😂😂😂. Good Times man


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2022)

To most people the dress code rules for golf are nonsense. But remember, there are many who have been programmed to follow rules, so just do.

Not allowing trainers in a clubhouse it one such nonsense rule.


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I agree, I wouldn't expect anyone to go into a clubhouse in just socks. You wouldn't do it in a club, pub or restaurant so why a golf club?
		
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I can only assume that many people have fallen foul of the no training shoes rule and rather than backing down on that particular rule, to save face, or something, they have agreed that going up in socks instead is ok.
I just found it bizarre


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I agree, I wouldn't expect anyone to go into a clubhouse in just socks. You wouldn't do it in a club, pub or restaurant so why a golf club?
		
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Because it is a very long time snce I have been to a pub, club or restaurant who gave two hoots about what type of shoe I was wearing. Probably about 1991 since I last had to wear leather shoes to get into a club.


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## GB72 (Dec 5, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			To most people the dress code rules for golf are nonsense. But remember, there are many who have been programmed to follow rules, so just do.

Not allowing trainers in a clubhouse it one such nonsense rule.
		
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But you can wear spikeless golf shoes that are identical to trainers


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			That's crazy mate.  Utterly crazy.   I can understand if they said no, full stop but to allow you in wearing socks says a lot about the game of golf.  No wonder the non golfing world think we're all stuck up.

On a different note this reminds me of when we used to put black socks over our trainers to get into night clubs in the 90's.  😂😂😂. Good Times man
		
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It is a mental situation. As I say I’m not arguing the no trainer rule (much as I think it’s outdated and odd, their place their rules) but to allow socks, that’s just utter nonsense


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

One thing this forum has taught me is not to put out a general invite to play at my club. It's a private members club with a dress code and rules which a lot of people don't seem willing to follow.


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## JamesR (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			it is what is called "indirect discrimination"

*when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others*.

yes well off people can and do wear trainers, but it may also be the case that the poorer players do not own a pair of smart leather shoes as an example
		
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I wouldn’t have said so, no!

A large number of people wear shoes to work, including those who aren’t wealthy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			According to the rule you can wear pyjamas in the clubhouse (as long as they have a collar)
		
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Maybe I’m reading a different dress code but I’m sure it says smart golf/casual attire - do they include pyjamas now 🤷‍♂️


hovis said:



			So playing golf requires a person to travel with 3 pairs of shoes
1: Trainers or whatever to drive in
2: golf shoes to play the game
3 shoes to eat dinner in.

If you think this is OK can you please put your head in the oven to accelerate the process and remove this mindset from golf
		
Click to expand...

why three 🤷‍♂️ why not just drive in the shoes that you are allowed into the clubhouse in 🤷‍♂️

Sorry I know that’s just common sense and a bit of thinking 



moogie said:



Or maybe.....just maybe
Some people might have thought golf had joined the 21st century, therefore said person didn't feel the need to check what footwear they put on to go to the golf club that day.......as it shouldn't really matter

Click to expand...

But anyone who plays golf knows that every club has a dress code - it’s not a new thing , it’s been in place for decades. 

If anyone doesn’t understand that each club has a dress code then I would suggest they lack basic common sense and understanding.

Do people now just expect to be able to do and wear whatever they want 🤷‍♂️


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			One thing this forum has taught me is not to put out a general invite to play at my club. It's a private members club with a dress code and rules which a lot of people don't seem willing to follow.
		
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If I go to a new course club I just wear shoes that I can drive in and have dinner in. Simple.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe I’m reading a different dress code but I’m sure it says smart golf/casual attire - do they include pyjamas now 🤷‍♂️


why three 🤷‍♂️ why not just drive in the shoes that you are allowed into the clubhouse in 🤷‍♂️

Sorry I know that’s just common sense and a bit of thinking



But anyone who plays golf knows that every club has a dress code - it’s not a new thing , it’s been in place for decades.

If anyone doesn’t understand that each club has a dress code then I would suggest they lack basic common sense and understanding.

Do people now just expect to be able to do and wear whatever they want 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Think the answer to the last sentence is YES given some views here.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe I’m reading a different dress code but I’m sure it says smart golf/casual attire - do they include pyjamas now 🤷‍♂️


why three 🤷‍♂️ why not just drive in the shoes that you are allowed into the clubhouse in 🤷‍♂️

Sorry I know that’s just common sense and a bit of thinking



But anyone who plays golf knows that every club has a dress code - it’s not a new thing , it’s been in place for decades.

If anyone doesn’t understand that each club has a dress code then I would suggest they lack basic common sense and understanding.

Do people now just expect to be able to do and wear whatever they want 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...


If someone is new to the game and doesnt know the history of golf stuffy dress codes, then I can believe that they wouldnt know there are certain "standards" that need to be kept. If they arent a member anywhere and just pal and play then its likely they will go into the clubhouse in trainers, but it will likely be a course which doesnt have a problem with this (not meant in a derogatory way).


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But anyone who plays golf knows that every club has a dress code - it’s not a new thing , it’s been in place for decades.

If anyone doesn’t understand that each club has a dress code then I would suggest they lack basic common sense and understanding.

Do people now just expect to be able to do and wear whatever they want 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree
I don't lack basic common sense or understanding 

I'd say nearly all clubs up in my area have a dress code
An ON COURSE dress code 
That's a given

But,  not many have a clubhouse dress code too

Surely a clubhouse is just a pub,  restaurant,  on the grounds of a golf course
Therefore it's much more important to be correctly dressed for the sport you're playing

My club is probably 3rd most expensive in my county
Yet I wear in the clubhouse,  what I wear on the course
But I could just as easily walk in the clubhouse in cargo shorts and flip flops
Nobody would bat an eye

Golf keeps telling the world it wants to evolve,  rid itself of its stuffy archaic reputation 
But at some clubs,  it's got no intention of doing so


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

On another note
My fees aren't due until 1st march 2023
So I expect to be invoiced January or February and will be sure to post up my increase


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

Trainers are an interesting one. I've gravitated to wearing them most of the time now, they are just so darned comfortable 😄. Pubs, restaurants, theatre etc, I'm there in trainers and no one cares. I wear them into most golf clubhouses but if it's a club new to me I do check first of all, just in case. I'd never even think of checking if a restaurant has a dress code 🤔. Do they or is it just certain golf clubs?


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Trainers are an interesting one. I've gravitated to wearing them most of the time now, they are just so darned comfortable 😄. Pubs, restaurants, theatre etc, I'm there in trainers and no one cares. I wear them into most golf clubhouses but if it's a club new to me I do check first of all, just in case. I'd never even think of checking if a restaurant has a dress code 🤔. Do they or is it just certain golf clubs?
		
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Just don’t go to Lytham in them, or, if you do, wear your best socks


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			Just don’t go to Lytham in them, or, if you do, wear your best socks
		
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Socks? You need socks? What if I was from California?.....nobody wears socks there.....(another semi-ignorant biased comment...I've been lots, they wear socks...and speak English, kind of)....for sure.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 5, 2022)

Albo said:



			Just don’t go to Lytham in them, or, if you do, wear your best socks
		
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It would have been quite funny if your socks had holes in them. Acceptable but scruffier than your trainers 😆


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2022)

moogie said:



			I don't agree
I don't lack basic common sense or understanding

I'd say nearly all clubs up in my area have a dress code
An ON COURSE dress code
That's a given

But,  not many have a clubhouse dress code too

Surely a clubhouse is just a pub,  restaurant,  on the grounds of a golf course
Therefore it's much more important to be correctly dressed for the sport you're playing

My club is probably 3rd most expensive in my county
Yet I wear in the clubhouse,  what I wear on the course
But I could just as easily walk in the clubhouse in cargo shorts and flip flops
Nobody would bat an eye

Golf keeps telling the world it wants to evolve,  rid itself of its stuffy archaic reputation
But at some clubs,  it's got no intention of doing so
		
Click to expand...

But we all know that clubhouses do have a level of dress code just like pubs , restaurants etc as you say 

Can you turn up to a restaurant wearing anything you want 🤷‍♂️

Most of the clubs are a simple dress code - clear smart clothing , No Waterproofs etc and some will say no trainers so as with checking the dress code for the course in the same area will be the dress code for the clubhouse 

And how expensive a club is will be irrelevant to what their dress code is , some of the richest clubs in the area you can wear what you want some will say no trainers but surely it’s just common sense to check before going - that would certainly save an embarrassing moments for anyone


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## Albo (Dec 5, 2022)

banjofred said:



			Socks? You need socks? What if I was from California?.....nobody wears socks there.....(another semi-ignorant biased comment...I've been lots, they wear socks...and speak English, kind of)....for sure.....
		
Click to expand...

Oddly enough I didn’t ask that, but maybe barefoot would be ok? Or at the very least discriminatory to Zola Bud


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe I’m reading a different dress code but I’m sure it says smart golf/casual attire - do they include pyjamas now 🤷‍♂️


why three 🤷‍♂️ why not just drive in the shoes that you are allowed into the clubhouse in 🤷‍♂️

Sorry I know that’s just common sense and a bit of thinking



But anyone who plays golf knows that every club has a dress code - it’s not a new thing , it’s been in place for decades.

If anyone doesn’t understand that each club has a dress code then I would suggest they lack basic common sense and understanding.

Do people now just expect to be able to do and wear whatever they want 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Because I'm not 70 years old. I don't wear shoes.  I find them uncomfortable to wear and even worse to drive in. Especially if I was to drive all the way to Lytham.   Most elderly people wear shoes, trousers and collar shirt to watch TV in


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

Some people on here really need to give their heads a wobble. The vast majority of clubs, even most 'posh' ones now are fairly relaxed but there are people that just simply want to be awkward and push boundaries.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Because I'm not 70 years old. I don't wear shoes.  I find them uncomfortable to wear and even worse to drive in. Especially if I was to drive all the way to Lytham.   Most elderly people wear shoes, trousers and collar shirt to watch TV in
		
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Some people were born to lead and others were born to follow rules mindlessly without question 

Lead on hovis


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## JamesR (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Because I'm not 70 years old. I don't wear shoes.  I find them uncomfortable to wear and even worse to drive in. Especially if I was to drive all the way to Lytham.   Most elderly people wear shoes, trousers and collar shirt to watch TV in
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Because I'm not 70 years old. I don't wear shoes.  I find them uncomfortable to wear and even worse to drive in. Especially if I was to drive all the way to Lytham.   Most elderly people wear shoes, trousers and collar shirt to watch TV in
		
Click to expand...

I can recommend a good chiropodist 👍


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## moogie (Dec 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But we all know that clubhouses do have a level of dress code just like pubs , restaurants etc as you say

Can you turn up to a restaurant wearing anything you want 🤷‍♂️
		
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I've never been to a restaurant with a dress code yet
Been to most decent ones locally in Newcastle 
Never had issue

Must be a southern thing.....
(Tongue firmly in cheek)




*actually been to a restaurant at a top hotel,  no jeans*


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2022)

moogie said:



			I've never been to a restaurant with a dress code yet
Been to most decent ones locally in Newcastle 
Never had issue

Must be a southern thing.....
(Tongue firmly in cheek)




*actually been to a restaurant at a top hotel,  no jeans*
		
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Think most dress codes are clothes must be worn.


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## KenL (Dec 5, 2022)

Can you put a thread on ignore?


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## Genu9 (Dec 5, 2022)

KenL said:



			Can you put a thread on ignore?
		
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Ever wished you hadn't started a thread?


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## hovis (Dec 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Some people were born to lead and others were born to follow rules mindlessly without question

Lead on hovis
		
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Ironically at work there's a magnet on the fridge that belongs to the police.   It reads "those who obey all the rules miss out on all the fun" 😜


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## Genu9 (Dec 5, 2022)

woofers said:



			Wow, from membership cost increases to joining fees to 6 pages on changing shoes……can we post anything in this thread?
		
Click to expand...

Apparently yes. Sticking to subject should be a Forum rule.


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## KenL (Dec 5, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Apparently yes. Sticking to subject should be a Forum rule.
		
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Try posting something political, that'll see some action.


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## banjofred (Dec 5, 2022)

Oh jeez, if only Taco Bell were within reach.......I admit it, I'm an alcoholic  fataholic, give me some good greasy Mex burrito's.......


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## BiMGuy (Dec 5, 2022)

KenL said:



			Can you put a thread on ignore?
		
Click to expand...

yes. Just don’t click on it 🙄


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I wouldn’t have said so, no!

A large number of people wear shoes to work, including those who aren’t wealthy.
		
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it was just an example of how indirect discrimination works.

Just because a policy affects everyone the same way doesn't mean it discriminate against one group more than another


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			it is what is called "indirect discrimination"

*when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others*.

yes well off people can and do wear trainers, but it may also be the case that the poorer players do not own a pair of smart leather shoes as an example
		
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to think how anyone that can afford to play golf can't afford to buy a pair of shoes. They are probably cheaper than trainers.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm struggling to think how anyone that can afford to play golf can't afford to buy a pair of shoes. They are probably cheaper than trainers.
		
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it was just an example.

It doesn't mean the people literally cannot afford it, but puts them at a bigger disadvantage than other people. They may not own smart shoes, I know plenty of people that don't, they don't need them for work and so have no necessity for them.

You also do not know the financial situation of a lot of golfer, they may have inherited clubs, play on the cheapest course around, it could cost them £200 a year in total, then a relative buys them a round at Lytham for their birthday, forcing them to buy a new pair of shoes for £40 would be a big disadvantage, that would be 1/5 of their total golfing annual budget just to be able to go into the clubhouse.

This is simply a hypothetical not saying it is a regular occurrence


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			it was just an example.

It doesn't mean the people literally cannot afford it, but puts them at a bigger disadvantage than other people. They may not own smart shoes, I know plenty of people that don't, they don't need them for work and so have no necessity for them.

You also do not know the financial situation of a lot of golfer, they may have inherited clubs, play on the cheapest course around, it could cost them £200 a year in total, then a relative buys them a round at Lytham for their birthday, forcing them to buy a new pair of shoes for £40 would be a big disadvantage, that would be 1/5 of their total golfing annual budget just to be able to go into the clubhouse.

This is simply a hypothetical not saying it is a regular occurrence
		
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I know you are putting a hypothetical situation out there but I seriously can't imagine a pair of shoes being a showstopper. It seems to me to be more a case of people just being awkward about following a few simple rules.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I know you are putting a hypothetical situation out there but I seriously can't imagine a pair of shoes being a showstopper. It seems to me to be more a case of people just being awkward about following a few simple rules.
		
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it's not about it being a show stopper, just whether it puts one group of people at a bigger disadvantage

that is how indirect discrimination works


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## DaveR (Dec 5, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			it's not about it being a show stopper, just whether it puts one group of people at a bigger disadvantage

that is how indirect discrimination works
		
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I think it's called life, golf isn't the cheapest sport to play.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2022)

Went to an Academy function at my club this evening.  I wore a t-shirt, jeans and trainers…hells teeth…that I was not pulled up by anyone must mean my Surrey club is not as fancy-dan posh as my £1800/yr subs should demand…or maybe we are not  so trad old-fashioned as we should be.

Hoping that any increase in my subs doesn’t take us over the £2k, as maybe then we’d become dead posh and boring.

Nb…I’d get away with wearing jeans and trainers, though maybe not a t-shirt, in clubhouse any time…but not on the course.  And that’s just fine.


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## Pants (Dec 5, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Went to an Academy function at my club this evening.  I wore a t-shirt, jeans and trainers…hells teeth…that I was not pulled up by anyone must mean my Surrey club is not as fancy-dan posh as my £1800/yr subs should demand…or maybe we are not  so trad old-fashioned as we should be.

Hoping that any increase in my subs doesn’t take us over the £2k, as maybe then we’d become dead posh and boring.

Nb…I’d get away with wearing jeans and trainers, though maybe not a t-shirt, in clubhouse any time…but not on the course.  And that’s just fine.
		
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Just another example to back up my post #480


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2022)

Pants said:



			Just another example to back up my post #480 

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Absolutely…👍😍


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I know you are putting a hypothetical situation out there but I seriously can't imagine a pair of shoes being a showstopper. It seems to me to be more a case of people just being awkward about following a few simple rules.
		
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Haha, really? So somebody wearing a lightweight golf polo and shorts plus their white socks (of course), decides not to put on their black office shoes to go with it, and you think they're just being mavericks rather than recognising that that would look absolutely ridiculous?


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Haha, really? So somebody wearing a lightweight golf polo and shorts plus their white socks (of course), decides not to put on their black office shoes to go with it, and you think they're just being mavericks rather than recognising that that would look absolutely ridiculous? 

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What has that got to do with it? The discussion was about someone not being able to afford a pair of shoes, nobody mentioned the colour of socks.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What has that got to do with it? The discussion was about someone not being able to afford a pair of shoes, nobody mentioned the colour of socks.
		
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Sock colour ! Next item on the agenda is untucked shirts


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			it was just an example.

It doesn't mean the people literally cannot afford it, but puts them at a bigger disadvantage than other people. They may not own smart shoes, I know plenty of people that don't, they don't need them for work and so have no necessity for them.

You also do not know the financial situation of a lot of golfer, they may have inherited clubs, play on the cheapest course around, it could cost them £200 a year in total, then a relative buys them a round at Lytham for their birthday, forcing them to buy a new pair of shoes for £40 would be a big disadvantage, that would be 1/5 of their total golfing annual budget just to be able to go into the clubhouse.

This is simply a hypothetical not saying it is a regular occurrence
		
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I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?


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## evemccc (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?
		
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Dunno, but there’s plenty of grifters in today’s Britain that the media will ‘celebrate’ - get one of those to champion your case of oppression


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?
		
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Buy a trainer yacht, cheaper than a black leather yacht 😉


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?
		
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Do under 30s get a reduction on their yachts? Do they pay a joining fee to the yacht club?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

People aren’t being discriminated against if they are unable to afford a luxury item and at the end of the day Golf is a luxury 

Cost when it comes to shoes doesn’t really stack up when a pair of trainers cost more than a basic pair of shoes 

And when it comes to dress codes - all clubs have a variety of them 

There are clubs with a strict dress code all the way down to clubs with very relaxed dress code 

If you don’t like a dress code at a club - don’t go there , if you are a member of club where you think it should change then look to change it 

Dress codes are always hot discussion but in the grand scheme of things it’s a lot of empty hot air - people ( majority )don’t not play golf because of a dress code , they don’t stop playing golf because of a dress code 

There is an always a club out there that will have a dress code where you are comfortable - whether that be shirts tucked out , football shirts , flip flops , black pink or green socks.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People aren’t being discriminated against if they are unable to afford a luxury item and at the end of the day Golf is a luxury

Cost when it comes to shoes doesn’t really stack up when a pair of trainers cost more than a basic pair of shoes

And when it comes to dress codes - all clubs have a variety of them

There are clubs with a strict dress code all the way down to clubs with very relaxed dress code

If you don’t like a dress code at a club - don’t go there , if you are a member of club where you think it should change then look to change it

Dress codes are always hot discussion but in the grand scheme of things it’s a lot of empty hot air - people ( majority )*don’t not play golf because of a dress code , they don’t stop playing golf because of a dress code*

There is an always a club out there that will have a dress code where you are comfortable - whether that be shirts tucked out , football shirts , flip flops , black pink or green socks.
		
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To the bit in bold. Maybe not directly. But it’s the attitudes and behaviours those dress codes represent and the people that enforce them that turn people off golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People aren’t being discriminated against if they are unable to afford a luxury item and at the end of the day Golf is a luxury

Cost when it comes to shoes doesn’t really stack up when a pair of trainers cost more than a basic pair of shoes

And when it comes to dress codes - all clubs have a variety of them

There are clubs with a strict dress code all the way down to clubs with very relaxed dress code

If you don’t like a dress code at a club - don’t go there , if you are a member of club where you think it should change then look to change it

Dress codes are always hot discussion but in the grand scheme of things it’s a lot of empty hot air - people ( majority )don’t not play golf because of a dress code , they don’t stop playing golf because of a dress code

There is an always a club out there that will have a dress code where you are comfortable - whether that be shirts tucked out , football shirts , flip flops , black pink or green socks.
		
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Bottom line is that some folks just don’t like being told what to do…’it’s my way or the highway’ just isn’t appreciated.  Well it may be the case that for some it would appear that it’s going to have to be the highway.  If you don’t like the rules then either put up with them; work to have them changed - or go elsewhere.

That said…I am a strong advocate for relaxing dress codes from what was traditional, but relaxing them only to some extent and to different extents in different club contexts…hence my t-shirt, jeans and trainers attire at my clubs Academy social in the clubhouse yesterday evening; and wearing jacket and tie at AGM.


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			To the bit in bold. Maybe not directly. But it’s the attitudes and behaviours those dress codes represent and the people that enforce them that turn people off golf.
		
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I would never join a club that required long socks with shorts, but thankfully clubs like that are rare these days.


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## evemccc (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			I would never join a club that required long socks with shorts, but thankfully clubs like that are rare these days.
		
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I’m the opposite - I would LOVE to be able to join a club that does…because the only ones (I can think of) that require it are of the ilk of Brancaster, Rye, Aldeburgh, Sandwich and Deal

I’ll happily play in trousers year-round to be a member at any of those 😁


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2022)

I knew abandoning white tie and tails in favour of dinner jackets was the thin end of the wedge!  



evemccc said:



			I’m the opposite - I would LOVE to be able to join a club that does…because the only ones (I can think of) that require it are of the ilk of Brancaster, Rye, Aldeburgh, Sandwich and Deal

I’ll happily play in trousers year-round to be a member at any of those 😁
		
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Me too.  Actually, the RGS Guildford Rugby Socks are ready for the next trip to Rye!


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 6, 2022)

Can I bring up the story this week of the woman who is suing a food company for $5 million because the packet said microwave for 3.5 minutes and after doing so the food wasn't cooked?

This is the thread for random stuff, right?


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Can I bring up the story this week of the woman who is suing a food company for $5 million because the packet said microwave for 3.5 minutes and after doing so the food wasn't cooked?

This is the thread for random stuff, right?
		
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Was the lawyer appropriately dressed?


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## SurreyGolfer (Dec 6, 2022)

Going to side-step the shoe discussion and just pick up on the membership fees for different ages/genders that's been mentioned several pages ago. People are confusing 'discounted fees for <group x> because they can't afford it' with 'we recognise there is a benefit to the club to have more of <group x> as members therefore we need to do something about it.'

There will be wealthy ladies, young people, seniors and there will be those who are less well off also in those age groups, it's not about that. It's about what is the best business sense for the club, i.e:
- a club may decide to discount fees for young persons because they've done a cost-benefit analysis and the figures stack up that someone who joins at 25 on a discounted rate actually generates more revenue for the club over the long-term than someone who joins at 35 on full whack
- a club may decide to discount fees for ladies because they recognise that a strong ladies section is reputationally good for a club or because ya know, it was pretty fricken stupid in hindsight to not let ladies play golf well into the 20th century. So why not just accept we might need to give this section a boost once in a while like a bit of a discount or *shock* their own tee times!

It's not about what groups can/cannot afford it. It's about (relative) under-representation and/or the business benefits of attracting different groups to a club. I'm a 35yr old man, there won't be many promotional offers for me......and I'm ok with that.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cost when it comes to shoes doesn’t really stack up when a pair of trainers cost more than a basic pair of shoes
.
		
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Of course it stacks up.  Yes my trainers are expensive but I have multiple uses for them on a daily basis.  I have zero need in my life for a pair of shoes.   I would literally have to go out and buy a pair of shoes so I can eat food in specific golf clubs.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2022)

I wonder if we knew the origin of the decision to add what now appears to be a silly/outdated rule, if it’d be better accepted rather than just the ‘that’s their rule so follow it’ … It might also show up the rules at particular clubs that are due/overdue for removal 

I usually make up a backstory for some of these anyway…
Club ABC had Colonel Mustard or Wing Commander ‘Tiger’ Moth Rtd, as chairman (because no one outranked him) and being a chap that’s had dress-codes/uniforms/rules since his first day at school he can’t be surrounded by free radicals in his retirement, so he insists on his ‘troops’ (as he sees them) following xyx club rule involving where to change or what to wear etc at the golf club. He passed many many moons ago but while there’s still a living member who knew him then his rules will live on as a legacy   
Or
Club DEF had the upstairs function hall redecorated for the Queens Silver Jubilee in 77’ and spent most of the clubs reserve on a nice faux paisley Axminister and they’ll be dammed if they don’t get full life expectancy from it, so no hobnail or heavy treaded boots are ever to be worn in that room because of the extra stress/wear on the wool, and when trainers with their thick tread soles boomed in the 80’s they got lumped in with that rule


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			To the bit in bold. Maybe not directly. But it’s the attitudes and behaviours those dress codes represent and the people that enforce them that turn people off golf.
		
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100% this. People don't walk into clubs, ask to see a dress code and then announce that they will not play golf because of it. They see and hear stories and then decide not to bother, take up another sport, plenty of them about. People don't need to flounce off making a song and dance, they make the decision quietly.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 6, 2022)

sorry but some people are either not getting it or being deliberately obtuse when it comes to indirect discrimination


chrisd said:



			I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?
		
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not at all the same thing, for the record I am not saying the dress code is indirect discrimination, just explaining how it works, that just because a policy is applied to everyone doesn't mean that it cannot be discriminatory.

I am not saying that not being able to afford golf or yachting or even a Ferrari is discriminatory, but there could be other policies that affect one group of people in a worse way. Dress code has been shown in case law to potentially have the effect of indirect discrimination, so just because you cannot see it being the case doesn't mean it isn't.

Golf is not a luxury sport, yes you can spend pretty much infinite amounts if you really want to, but you can also pay very little to enjoy the sport


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			100% this. People don't walk into clubs, ask to see a dress code and then announce that they will not play golf because of it. They see and hear stories and then decide not to bother, take up another sport, plenty of them about. People don't need to flounce off making a song and dance, they make the decision quietly.
		
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Let’s see the survey results about why people aren’t playing golf ? 

Anytime that there are surveys from clubs and governing bodies the mains reasons for leaving clubs or stopping golf are always the same 

Cost 
Time 
Injury 
Moving homes 

Anytime someone has left our club I can’t ever recall a reason being “I can’t play without my shirt tucked in”

There will always be a small minority who don’t like a dress code or don’t take up the sport because of preconceived images but how many actually stop playing because of , how many actually go - I’m not going to take up golf because of what people wear 

A loud minority in a small vessel doesn’t mean there are plenty of people not taking up the sport because of image issues 
it’s the same on here - always the small minority going on about dress codes etc etc 

How many of the people will still go to a Sunningdale or a RSG or Troon or indeed any club that has a dress code of sorts - 99% of them 

it’s Always cost and time as the two main reason people don’t take up golf 

Right now golf clubs being full to the brim across the country is showing that golf is doing well


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What has that got to do with it? The discussion was about someone not being able to afford a pair of shoes, nobody mentioned the colour of socks.
		
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So defensive when you don't have an answer for something. 😂 You dismissed the idea of someone not being able to afford a smart of shoes, so I offered another valid reason why somebody might not want to wear them.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 6, 2022)

We've not even started the hoodies on course discussion yet!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			So defensive when you don't have an answer for something. 😂 You dismissed the idea of someone not being able to afford a smart of shoes, so I offered another valid reason why somebody might not want to wear them.
		
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Good luck refusing my hideous shoes


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

Didn’t RSG let the pros play practice rounds in shorts without long socks?


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 6, 2022)

SurreyGolfer said:



			Going to side-step the shoe discussion and just pick up on the membership fees for different ages/genders that's been mentioned several pages ago. People are confusing 'discounted fees for <group x> because they can't afford it' with 'we recognise there is a benefit to the club to have more of <group x> as members therefore we need to do something about it.'

There will be wealthy ladies, young people, seniors and there will be those who are less well off also in those age groups, it's not about that. It's about what is the best business sense for the club, i.e:
- a club may decide to discount fees for young persons because they've done a cost-benefit analysis and the figures stack up that someone who joins at 25 on a discounted rate actually generates more revenue for the club over the long-term than someone who joins at 35 on full whack
- a club may decide to discount fees for ladies because they recognise that a strong ladies section is reputationally good for a club or because ya know, it was pretty fricken stupid in hindsight to not let ladies play golf well into the 20th century. So why not just accept we might need to give this section a boost once in a while like a bit of a discount or *shock* their own tee times!

It's not about what groups can/cannot afford it. It's about (relative) under-representation and/or the business benefits of attracting different groups to a club. I'm a 35yr old man, there won't be many promotional offers for me......and I'm ok with that.
		
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Nice try, this now a shoe thread.

And like LIV, they'll go round and round in circles, no quarter given.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Let’s see the survey results about why people aren’t playing golf ?

Anytime that there are surveys from clubs and governing bodies the mains reasons for leaving clubs or stopping golf are always the same

Cost
Time
Injury
Moving homes

Anytime someone has left our club I can’t ever recall a reason being “I can’t play without my shirt tucked in”

There will always be a small minority who don’t like a dress code or don’t take up the sport because of preconceived images but how many actually stop playing because of , how many actually go - I’m not going to take up golf because of what people wear

A loud minority in a small vessel doesn’t mean there are plenty of people not taking up the sport because of image issues
it’s the same on here - always the small minority going on about dress codes etc etc

How many of the people will still go to a Sunningdale or a RSG or Troon or indeed any club that has a dress code of sorts - 99% of them

it’s Always cost and time as the two main reason people don’t take up golf

Right now golf clubs being full to the brim across the country is showing that golf is doing well
		
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Your point relates to people leaving or stopping golf. I, and others, are pointing out why people don't take up the sport in the first place. It is a drip drip effect, an image issue.

I've heard it many times when I started to play, no golfers in my wider family, and from my sons friends when he started to play.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your point relates to people leaving or stopping golf. I, and others, are pointing out why people don't take up the sport in the first place. It is a drip drip effect, an image issue.

I've heard it many times when I started to play, no golfers in my wider family, and from my sons friends when he started to play.
		
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I have lost count of the amount of people that have said "is golf still actually like that"
When I'm around non golfers I actually get embarrassed to say I am a golfer

My playing partner recently went on a date (he's 48). When she's asked what he liked to do he didn't mention golf 😂.   He told me after "I didn't want her to think I was a knob"


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have lost count of the amount of people that have said "is golf still actually like that"
*Around certain people I actually get embarrassed to say I am a golfer*

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You need to grow a set then and stop worrying about what other people think.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have lost count of the amount of people that have said "is golf still actually like that"
When I'm around non golfers I actually get embarrassed to say I am a golfer

My playing partner recently went on a date (he's 48). When she's asked what he liked to do he didn't mention golf 😂.   He told me after "I didn't want her to think I was a knob"
		
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It's a shame when you need to defend your hobby through no fault of your own.


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## D-S (Dec 6, 2022)

It is really difficult to get rid of the image though. 
My club has allowed jeans and trainers in the clubhouse for the past 10 years or so, same with changing shoes in the car par, hoodies are allows etc. etc.. However the other day when asked where I played someone in the conversation said that it was a stuffy club as they knew someone who was thrown off my course for wearing short socks - I’ve been a member for just under 30 years and trainer style socks have always been allowed (I wouldn’t have joined - in the mid 90s - if long socks were obligatory). However the club was being blamed for issues over 30 years ago -I’ve no idea how this sort of pre conceived misperception can be changed if people are going to hold on to the their prejudices for ever.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2022)

I think the best course of action is right your fees are going up x % but to make sure everyone gets with the programme we will provide you with a free pair of £20 shoes from shoe zone to be worn after the round


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			It is really difficult to get rid of the image though. 
My club has allowed jeans and trainers in the clubhouse for the past 10 years or so, same with changing shoes in the car par, hoodies are allows etc. etc.. However the other day when asked where I played someone in the conversation said that it was a stuffy club as they knew someone who was thrown off my course for wearing short socks - I’ve been a member for just under 30 years and trainer style socks have always been allowed (I wouldn’t have joined - in the mid 90s - if long socks were obligatory). However the club was being blamed for issues over 30 years ago -I’ve no idea how this sort of pre conceived misperception can be changed if people are going to hold on to the their prejudices for ever.
		
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Has your club fallen apart and been taken over by the local riff raff in that time?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your point relates to people leaving or stopping golf. I, and others, are pointing out why people don't take up the sport in the first place. It is a drip drip effect, an image issue.

I've heard it many times when I started to play, no golfers in my wider family, and from my sons friends when he started to play.
		
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My point is also in regards to why people don’t take it up as well from scratch 

You can keep blaming the image etc but it’s a minority reason why people don’t start to play golf - time and cost will always been the two main reasons. 



hovis said:



			I have lost count of the amount of people that have said "is golf still actually like that"
When I'm around non golfers I actually get embarrassed to say I am a golfer

My playing partner recently went on a date (he's 48). When she's asked what he liked to do he didn't mention golf 😂.   He told me after "I didn't want her to think I was a knob"
		
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Do you really ? Why ? Maybe it’s because you’re portraying a generic image of the sport that you apply to all when it’s always the minority- there are stuffy people in all walks of life and there will always be a very small amount of clubs that are stuffy but that’s not how the majority of clubs are 

maybe you should portray that message instead - there is a golf club to fit every single persons needs both financially and “image” wise - golf over the last ten years and even more so during the pandemic opened its doors to everyone who wanted to play the sport there are many clubs with no barriers , you now have people bashing on the door to join a club


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a shame when you need to defend your hobby through no fault of your own.
		
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Isn’t it our job to put the record straight though.
If anyone said to me “ do you wear jumpers like Ronnie Corbett” I would just laugh.
I explain modern clubs to them ( mine anyway) .
But if you go to the Ritz for lunch would you not dress up a bit?


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			You need to grow a set then and stop worrying about what other people think.
		
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Golfnut1957 said:



			You need to grow a set then and stop worrying about what other people think.
		
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Or, I'd rather not have a pair and not be seen to have the traits of a typical golfer.


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## D-S (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Didn’t RSG let the pros play practice rounds in shorts without long socks?
		
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Strangely clubs often relax their dress codes for large events. I have been to the Ladies National County finals with Gloucestershire many times often held at old fashioned clubs. They was one in Essex where almost all the players from 6 counties contravened a lot of the Ladies dress code but the club agreed to relax them for a week otherwise the event simply could not have been held.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t it our job to put the record straight though.
If anyone said to me “ do you wear jumpers like Ronnie Corbett” I would just laugh.
I explain modern clubs to them ( mine anyway) .
*But if you go to the Ritz for lunch would you not dress up a bit?*

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Could that be part of the problem, club/s think its the Ritz but some folks think its closer to Nandos


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I think the best course of action is right your fees are going up x % but to make sure everyone gets with the programme we will provide you with a free pair of £20 shoes from shoe zone to be worn after the round
		
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Make it like bowling .
Shoe rack in changing room to borrow for dinner.
Mind you the shoe rack might have to be in the car park.!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			It is really difficult to get rid of the image though.
My club has allowed jeans and trainers in the clubhouse for the past 10 years or so, same with changing shoes in the car par, hoodies are allows etc. etc.. However the other day when asked where I played someone in the conversation said that it was a stuffy club as they knew someone who was thrown off my course for wearing short socks - I’ve been a member for just under 30 years and trainer style socks have always been allowed (I wouldn’t have joined - in the mid 90s - if long socks were obligatory). However the club was being blamed for issues over 30 years ago -I’ve no idea how this sort of pre conceived misperception can be changed if people are going to hold on to the their prejudices for ever.
		
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Spot on 

Many clubs have changed over the years but there are still some and that includes golfers as can be seen in the thread that can’t see that many golf clubs have moved forward with the times and need to stop judging all the clubs based on a very small minority - we have 4 golf clubs in the local area and for years we were known to be “stuffy” - interviews , no jeans , no trainers etc, that was all removed and now the club average age has been dramatically reduced due to the age demographic that have joined the club 

I have many friends and work colleagues that would like to play golf and have tried but don’t take it for various reasons - none of them are any image issues or what colour socks they can’t wear


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can keep blaming the image etc but it’s a minority reason why people don’t start to play golf - time and cost will always been the two main reasons.



 club
		
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Maybe it's the circles I roll in but very rarely do I hear time and money as a barrier to take up the sport. 
What I do hear on regular occasions is "I wouldn't be seen dead on a golf course" 
"I would end up banging someone out" 

I Also got people to the range and semi interested until I start to teach them about typical etiquette and clubs rules.   They just say "stuff that".


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Slab said:



			Could that be part of the problem, club/s think its the Ritz but some folks think its closer to Nandos
		
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I think you have brilliantly summed up the last 10 pages into one line.   We'll done sir


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

Slab said:



			Could that be part of the problem, club/s think its the Ritz but some folks think its closer to Nandos
		
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Yes it is the problem imo.
To many clubs think they are the last bastion of standards.
Most don’t anymore.
Mine allows jeans ,trainers,hoodies but no cargo shorts why it’s just shorts with extra pockets.
Some golf club rules defy logic in modern Britain.

But clubs are businesses and as such can enforce whatever rules they see fit. ( even sex/age discrimination)
If you can’t/ won’t comply don’t go there.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t it our job to put the record straight though.
If anyone said to me “ do you wear jumpers like Ronnie Corbett” I would just laugh.
I explain modern clubs to them ( mine anyway) .
But if you go to the Ritz for lunch would you not dress up a bit?
		
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Yes it is, and I do. It does get boring though, to have to advise people that most clubs are not stuffy, backward thinking, sexist etc. I've had to do the speech too many times.......I don't stop doing it but golf doesn't help itself on that front.

If I was going to the Ritz, I wouldn't but lets go with the analogy, I would go smart casual, but no more (I don't do ties, I don't do formal wear as I don't find itcomfortable). If smart casual wasn't enough, plenty of other places to go to


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## AddisonRoad (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I think you have brilliantly summed up the last 10 pages into one line.   We'll done sir
		
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Or maybe some people have different preferences. Some people don’t enjoy playing adults that whinge about dress codes and wear ugly shoes as a measure of defiance, others do. Hopefully clubs form their own cultures and preferences to suit their membership, and hopefully those that don’t enjoy it seek out other clubs rather than hurling negativity at the majority of the membership.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Maybe it's the circles I roll in but very rarely do I hear time and money as a barrier to take up the sport.
What I do hear on regular occasions is "I wouldn't be seen dead on a golf course"
"I would end up banging someone out"

I Also got people to the range and semi interested until I start to teach them about typical etiquette and clubs rules.   They just say "stuff that".
		
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I have to agree with some of that. Non golfing people I talk to actually have no idea of the time it takes to complete a round or, in fact, how much golf costs. What they do think is that golf clubs are full of stuffy old men in blazers with right wing views and opinions and that they would not be at all welcome or feel, comfortable. 

Anyone know the history of trainer bans at clubs. Cannot really be based on smartness as there is no definition of shoes having to be smart or even in decent condition and so I am just interested why trainers became the thing not to be allowed.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes it is the problem imo.
To many clubs think they are the last bastion of standards.
*Most don’t anymore*.
Mine allows jeans ,trainers,hoodies but no cargo shorts why it’s just shorts with extra pockets.
Some golf club rules defy logic in modern Britain.

But clubs are businesses and as such can enforce whatever rules they see fit. ( even sex/age discrimination)
If you can’t/ won’t comply don’t go there.
		
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I can't disagree with most of this but most do have undesirable standards to many people.   Take your golf head off for a second a imagine you want to take up golf when you are confronted with :

1 you can't change you shoes there mate
2 you can't wear trainers but you can wear trainers if they are golf trainers
3 you have to wear specific shorts
4 your socks must be white
5 you have to keep your shirt tucked
6 that shirt better have a collar
7 you can't take your trolley in between the bunker and green
8 you can't walk where you want on the green
9 you can't talk when someone is playing
10 you can't talk/shout across the fairway
11 you have to take you hat off to shake hands
12 no, no mate. You can only play one ball. No practicing here
13 change your shoes to have a pint
14 don't park in the captains spot
15 get to the gate only to find you need a code to get out

You can understand why people think "stuff all that cobblers"
To  all of us the above is normal standard stuff.  But from the outside looking in.......... 😳😳😳😳


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with most of this but most do have undesirable standards to many people.   Take your golf head off for a second a imagine you want to take up golf when you are confronted with :

1 you can't change you shoes there mate
2 you can't wear trainers but you can wear trainers if they are golf trainers
3 you have to wear specific shorts
4 your socks must be white
5 you have to keep your shirt tucked
6 that shirt better have a collar
7 you can't take your trolley in between the bunker and green
8 you can't walk where you want on the green
9 you can't talk when someone is playing
10 you can't talk/shout across the fairway
11 you have to take you hat off to shake hands
12 no, no mate. You can only play one ball. No practicing here
13 change your shoes to have a pint
14 don't park in the captains spot
15 get to the gate only to find you need a code to get out

You can understand why people think "stuff all that cobblers"
		
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I can simplify it even more. When someone judges, and it is judging, that the way I wish to dress and deport myself is not up to the standards required to have a beer and a sandwich in a bar then I am pretty much out. Appreciate that clubs have the right to put in place whatever rules they like but I have spent most if my life being told what to wear form school uniform to suit and tie for work and, as I approach 50 at the weekend, I think I have earned the right to actually be me when I chose what to wear at weekends and not to be looked down upon or denegrated because I wear jeans, vans and a hoodie. A bar is a place to relax. Now, to use a previous analogy, if the club had service, food and decor to the standard of the Ritz then you know what, I may consider it worth dressing up for but it feels inherently wrong to smarten up for a place with the food and decor of a Bernie Inn. This is just another of the reasons why I no longer hold a current membership.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My point is also in regards to why people don’t take it up as well from scratch

You can keep blaming the image etc but it’s a minority reason why people don’t start to play golf - time and cost will always been the two main reasons.
		
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Have you got anything to back this generalisation up. Doesn't match a lot of the stuff I have read about why golf may struggle to continue to attract new players once the post covid boom drops off


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I can simplify it even more. When someone judges, and it is judging, that the way I wish to dress and deport myself is not up to the standards required to have a beer and a sandwich in a bar then I am pretty much out. Appreciate that clubs have the right to put in place whatever rules they like but I have spent most if my life being told what to wear form school uniform to suit and tie for work and, as I approach 50 at the weekend, I think I have earned the right to actually be me when I chose what to wear at weekends and not to be looked down upon or denegrated because I wear jeans, vans and a hoodie. A bar is a place to relax. Now, to use a previous analogy, if the club had service, food and decor to the standard of the Ritz then you know what, I may consider it worth dressing up for but it feels inherently wrong to smarten up for a place with the food and decor of a Bernie Inn. This is just another of the reasons why I no longer hold a current membership.
		
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 Bernie inn😂😂😂.  Did I detect a only fools and horses quote there?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I'd like to take up yachting - I didn't realise that the fact I can't afford a yacht means I've been subject to  "indirect discrimination"  who do I complain to?
		
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Chris, come and see me....I'll do you a good deal


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with most of this but most do have undesirable standards to many people.   Take your golf head off for a second a imagine you want to take up golf when you are confronted with :

1 you can't change you shoes there mate
2 you can't wear trainers but you can wear trainers if they are golf trainers
3 you have to wear specific shorts
4 your socks must be white
5 you have to keep your shirt tucked
6 that shirt better have a collar
7 you can't take your trolley in between the bunker and green
8 you can't walk where you want on the green
9 you can't talk when someone is playing
10 you can't talk/shout across the fairway
11 you have to take you hat off to shake hands
12 no, no mate. You can only play one ball. No practicing here
13 change your shoes to have a pint
14 don't park in the captains spot
15 get to the gate only to find you need a code to get out

You can understand why people think "stuff all that cobblers"
To  all of us the above is normal standard stuff.  But from the outside looking in.......... 😳😳😳😳
		
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Surely it’s broken down into two areas 

Dress code/parking - plenty of courses that don’t say where you can change your shoes , stop you from wearing what colour socks you wear , stop you from wearing trainers , park wherever you want , where what top you want

Ettiquete - a lot of that is just common sense and care of the course you are playing , but even then there are courses you can go and shout your head off , go wherever you want on the green with your buggy or trolley - but every sport will have those sort or dos and don’ts when playing the sport


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## JamesR (Dec 6, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have you got anything to back this generalisation up. *Doesn't match a lot of the stuff I have read* about why golf may struggle to continue to attract new players once the post covid boom drops off
		
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Have you got anything to back that up?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with most of this but most do have undesirable standards to many people.   Take your golf head off for a second a imagine you want to take up golf when you are confronted with :

1 you can't change you shoes there mate
2 you can't wear trainers but you can wear trainers if they are golf trainers
3 you have to wear specific shorts
4 your socks must be white
5 you have to keep your shirt tucked
6 that shirt better have a collar
7 you can't take your trolley in between the bunker and green
8 you can't walk where you want on the green
9 you can't talk when someone is playing
10 you can't talk/shout across the fairway
11 you have to take you hat off to shake hands
12 no, no mate. You can only play one ball. No practicing here
13 change your shoes to have a pint
14 don't park in the captains spot
15 get to the gate only to find you need a code to get out

You can understand why people think "stuff all that cobblers"
To  all of us the above is normal standard stuff.  But from the outside looking in.......... 😳😳😳😳
		
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I am pretty sure most sports clubs have rules
Tennis club by me has a reputation of posh, but I have never been there.
I don’t judge places by other peoples opinions.

The things you listed are silly I agree except the bunker one.
You could damage the bunker edge so don’t do it also it’s where a lot of the sprinkler heads are situated
The Captain has earned his spot so some respect is just manners.
Why do you want to talk when someone is playing? 
One ball is to protect the condition of the course for others and GK work load ,pitch marks etc.
You don’t need to remove cap to shake hands just watch the Americans


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## JamesR (Dec 6, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Chris, come and see me....I'll do you a good deal
		
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Are you sure he's the "right sort" of person for yachting?
Seems a bit of a pleb to me 🤔


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Bernie inn😂😂😂.  Did I detect a only fools and horses quote there?
		
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Nope, just someone old enough to remember them


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## D-S (Dec 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Has your club fallen apart and been taken over by the local riff raff in that time?
		
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No, there are no doubt older members who hrrrumph about falling standards but this is typical of older generations in every walk of life, see all discussions of snowflakes  etc. or the Beatles long hair.
The club, like all in the area, modernises over time but those with prejudice single out problems encountered either many years ago or in totally different parts of the country. I look back and laugh at some of the petty, discriminatory rules that were around when my wife and I started playing in the early 90s, bizarre dress codes (e.g. long socks or jacket and tie at all times in the main areas of the clubhouse), men only bars and Ladies Lounges. However we haven’t encountered anything like this for many years and if we do/did we would elect not to play there or conform but that is simply not an issue 99.9% of the time.
How you change this perception I really don’t know.


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## Pants (Dec 6, 2022)

One has to assume that most posters on this Forum actually play golf and equally enjoy it to some extent.  All some can do though is continually moan and post negative comments about the game.  Any non-golfer coming on here to learn about the game before deciding whether or not to take it up, will be immediately turned off after reading some of this rubbish.  Spread positivity about the game you enjoy, not negativity.  

Every sport has it's own rules and regulations, dress codes etc.

Just one example.  A tennis club near me has 4 different court surfaces - astroturf, clay, grass and indoors.  Guess what.  They insist on different shoes for each. Remove clay court shoes before going into clubhouse.  Indoor court shoes must only be worn indoors, not worn from carpark to court.  Squash courts have the same rule.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Pants said:



			One has to assume that most posters on this Forum actually play golf and equally enjoy it to some extent.  All some can do though is continually moan and post negative comments about the game.  Any non-golfer coming on here to learn about the game before deciding whether or not to take it up, will be immediately turned off after reading some of this rubbish.  Spread positivity about the game you enjoy, not negativity. 

Every sport has it's own rules and regulations, dress codes etc.

Just one example.  A tennis club near me has 4 different court surfaces - astroturf, clay, grass and indoors.  Guess what.  They insist on different shoes for each. Remove clay court shoes before going into clubhouse.  Indoor court shoes must only be worn indoors, not worn from carpark to court.  Squash courts have the same rule.
		
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Actually it was the petty nature of golf clubs that finally pushed me away from hving a membership despite haivng tolerated it for years before. I feel that I am within my rights to spread and comment on what has played a part in dirivng me away from golf and what I feel should change. In fact the friends i have that are happiest with their gofling life are those that have the least possible contact with the club and just use the course. 

As for the shoe analogy, there are practical reasons for those. Clay stains and damages floors, sones caught in shoes can damage indoor court floors etc. Practical reasons. Not sure how my trainers are going to damange a bar carpet in a way that my work shoes would not.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 6, 2022)

Pants said:



			One has to assume that most posters on this Forum actually play golf and equally enjoy it to some extent.  All some can do though is continually moan and post negative comments about the game.  Any non-golfer coming on here to learn about the game before deciding whether or not to take it up, will be immediately turned off after reading some of this rubbish.  Spread positivity about the game you enjoy, not negativity. 

Every sport has it's own rules and regulations, dress codes etc.

Just one example.  A tennis club near me has 4 different court surfaces - astroturf, clay, grass and indoors.  Guess what.  They insist on different shoes for each. Remove clay court shoes before going into clubhouse.  Indoor court shoes must only be worn indoors, not worn from carpark to court.  Squash courts have the same rule.
		
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I mean that kind of makes sense though. I have no tennis knowledge but I assume shoes for clay courts will be different to those for grass - or at least the grip/traction? Its about damaging the courts.

No one is moaning about having to change shoes- lets be honest no one wants their mud-clad golf shoes on post round, they're moaning about being told where to change them and what shoes they're actually allowed to wear.  A pair of converse wont do any more damage than a pair of oxfords.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 6, 2022)

Pants said:



			One has to assume that most posters on this Forum actually play golf and equally enjoy it to some extent.  All some can do though is continually moan and post negative comments about the game.  Any non-golfer coming on here to learn about the game before deciding whether or not to take it up, will be immediately turned off after reading some of this rubbish.  Spread positivity about the game you enjoy, not negativity. 

Every sport has it's own rules and regulations, dress codes etc.

Just one example.  A tennis club near me has 4 different court surfaces - astroturf, clay, grass and indoors.  Guess what.  They insist on different shoes for each. Remove clay court shoes before going into clubhouse.  Indoor court shoes must only be worn indoors, not worn from carpark to court.  Squash courts have the same rule.
		
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So because we play and enjoy the game we should not point out things that are bad or could be improved, strange way of thinking.

Those shoes rules actually make sense though, playing on clay your shoes will be covered in clay, so wearing them into the clubhouse would track a load of clay onto the carpets. Indoor surfaces can be damaged, and very expensive to fix, they also mark very easily so having indoor shoes just for indoors makes sense.

Likewise when golf shoes were spiked they would rip up carpets so makes sense that you could not wear them indoors. 

Saying you cannot wear smart trainers in the clubhouse to get a drink is not the same thing


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually it was the petty nature of golf clubs that finally pushed me away from hving a membership despite haivng tolerated it for years before. I feel that I am within my rights to spread and comment on what has played a part in dirivng me away from golf and what I feel should change. In fact the friends i have that are happiest with their gofling life are those that have the least possible contact with the club and just use the course.

As for the shoe analogy, there are practical reasons for those. Clay stains and damages floors, sones caught in shoes can damage indoor court floors etc. Practical reasons. Not sure how my trainers are going to damange a bar carpet in a way that my work shoes would not.
		
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Me too.  I lasted a grand total of 2 years at a members club before I retreated back to the belfry with my tail between my legs.   I just couldn't take it.   The final straw was when the vice captain walked across 2 fairways to tell me the side of my shirt wasn't tucked in.  It was during the summer when it was 40c


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			A pair of converse wont do any more damage than a pair of oxfords.
		
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Oxfords, not brogues?


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Me too.  I lasted a grand total of 2 years at a members club before I retreated back to the belfry with my tail between my legs.   I just couldn't take it.   The final straw was when the vice captain walked across 2 fairways to tell me the side of my shirt wasn't tucked in.  It was during the summer when it was 40c
		
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I lasted over a decade but kept moving clubs hoping that the attitude and atmosphere would be different but it never was. May look to doing a points membership at the local resort course next year then I can play with a couple of mates then go to the pub.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oxfords, not brogues? 

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You know it LT


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## Bdill93 (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Me too.  I lasted a grand total of 2 years at a members club before I retreated back to the belfry with my tail between my legs.   I just couldn't take it.   The final straw was when the vice captain walked across 2 fairways to tell me the side of my shirt wasn't tucked in.  It was during the summer when it was 40c
		
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Oh just come join Raven mate, barrel of laughs to be had - just a 30 minute commute from the Belfry


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## Albo (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually it was the petty nature of golf clubs that finally pushed me away from hving a membership despite haivng tolerated it for years before. I feel that I am within my rights to spread and comment on what has played a part in dirivng me away from golf and what I feel should change. In fact the friends i have that are happiest with their gofling life are those that have the least possible contact with the club and just use the course.

As for the shoe analogy, there are practical reasons for those. Clay stains and damages floors, sones caught in shoes can damage indoor court floors etc. Practical reasons. Not sure how my trainers are going to damange a bar carpet in a way that my work shoes would not.
		
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I am exactly the same with my golf club, I use it as a way to play golf and nothing more. In fairness there are no rules that get to me other than wearing a hat in the clubhouse. When I seldom go in there I do remove it as thems the rules but it never makes sense.
I can (and do) change shoes in the car park though they ask that we don’t bang shoes together on the car park and do so over a grass verge which makes total sense to me.
I can wear my trainers or smart shoes in the bar
I can have my shirt untucked
I don’t even have to wear golf attire any more, just no football/sports team shirts which makes sense in so far as some people can’t see past a team shirt and may lead to undesirable behaviour (though 99% of people aren’t that way inclined).
I just hate the stuffy attitude of the old guard in and around the club so just keep myself to myself. Let them get on with being them while I get on with being me


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually it was the petty nature of golf clubs that finally pushed me away from hving a membership despite haivng tolerated it for years before. I feel that I am within my rights to spread and comment on what has played a part in dirivng me away from golf and what I feel should change. In fact the friends i have that are happiest with their gofling life are those that have the least possible contact with the club and just use the course.

As for the shoe analogy, there are practical reasons for those. Clay stains and damages floors, sones caught in shoes can damage indoor court floors etc. Practical reasons. Not sure how my trainers are going to damange a bar carpet in a way that my work shoes would not.
		
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Exactly - as I always say, a rule has to be logical. The equivalent would be a club saying they don't want you wearing muddy winter golf shoes on their carpets, which is completely reasonable. Banning your nice clean trainers that have been sat in the car is not.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oxfords, not brogues? 

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I am rather partial to a bit of Broguing and so clearly not Kingsman material


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## Bdill93 (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I am rather partial to a bit of Broguing and so clearly not Kingsman material
		
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No no, they're all oxfords.

Some just have Broguing


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Exactly - as I always say, a rule has to be logical. The equivalent would be a club saying they don't want you wearing muddy winter golf shoes on their carpets, which is completely reasonable. Banning your nice clean trainers that have been sat in the car is not.
		
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Just to be clear that many if not most of the golf clubs around the country allow trainers within their clubhouse and many changed over the last 2/3 years and mainly due the membership wanting to change 

Yes there will always be some clubs that don’t allow trainers and have stricter dress codes but 99% of golfers won’t go to those clubs anyway and the people that do go to them will be fully aware of the dress code 

It’s always worth remembering that the rules of a golf club (members) are set by the members of those clubs because that’s what they want


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 6, 2022)

A few pages ago, peeps were talking about petty rules at top 100 courses.

My thoughts.
I'm comfortable playing at middle quality courses, I don't mind playing the odd away day at a top 100 course, although it has to be said that I have been very disappointed on several occasions playing a supposed quality course which was anything but, especially when considering the wallet emptying cost.

I find middle quality courses (as my own is) perfect for my golfing mindset.
Available at a reasonable cost, not full of stuck up toff's & enjoyable to play.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just to be clear that many if not most of the golf clubs around the country allow trainers within their clubhouse and many changed over the last 2/3 years and mainly due the membership wanting to change

Yes there will always be some clubs that don’t allow trainers and have stricter dress codes but 99% of golfers won’t go to those clubs anyway and the people that do go to them will be fully aware of the dress code

It’s always worth remembering that the rules of a golf club (members) are set by the members of those clubs because that’s what they want
		
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Sure it's a small number, thankfully, but I believe the 'no trainers' rules were because they were seen as working class footwear decades ago and that's the sort of person clubs wanted to keep out. That's why I'd still like to see that rule (and others) stamped out. Particularly daft nowadays when, as mentioned, most summer shoes are effectively trainers anyway so it makes zero sense. 

I'm probably looking at it the wrong way though. Your last sentence is right, and if we extrapolate that further - a no trainers rule is a perfect indicator that the members at that particular club are best avoided!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			how much disposable income do you think a 28 year old has?

They may be on "decent money" though that may also not be true, average salary for a 28 year old is £24,000 across the UK. Which after student loan, pension contributions etc they are probably taking home £1,500pcm take out rent/mortgage, council tax, food, travel expenses, utilities etc they are not going to have a lot of disposable income, of course some will but you don't create a policy because a small minority fit into it.
		
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and they are 10 years an adult. If they cannot afford specific golf membership they should look for cheaper options. If they cannot afford their football season ticket do you think the "older" members or the club should subsidise them? What about their rent or mortgage or groceries, electricity bills - these are life essentials, golf is not, nor football, holidays etc etc


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## JamesR (Dec 6, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			A few pages ago, peeps were talking about petty rules at top 100 courses.

My thoughts.
I'm comfortable playing at middle quality courses, I don't mind playing the odd away day at a top 100 course, although it has to be said that I have been very disappointed on several occasions playing a supposed quality course which was anything but, especially when considering the wallet emptying cost.

I find middle quality courses (as my own is) perfect for my golfing mindset.
Available at a reasonable cost, not full of stuck up toff's & enjoyable to play.
		
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Where's that out of interest?


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## r0wly86 (Dec 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and they are 10 years an adult. If they cannot afford specific golf membership they should look for cheaper options. If they cannot afford their football season ticket do you think the "older" members or the club should subsidise them? What about their rent or mortgage or groceries, electricity bills - these are life essentials, golf is not, nor football, holidays etc etc
		
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you have to show what I was replying to, that people in their late 20s shouldn't have discounted rates like early 20s because they have been working for a while and would be on good momey. I was just saying that, that mau have been the case in previous years but currently those in their late 20s are not on good money generally speaking especially taking into account in the increased cost of living.

if people cannot afford it then obviously they won't join, but if clubs feel they need more people that aged to be members then they have to take into account that they actually do not have that much disposable income and have reduced memberships


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			you have to show what I was replying to, that people in their late 20s shouldn't have discounted rates like early 20s because they have been working for a while and would be on good momey. I was just saying that, that mau have been the case in previous years but currently those in their late 20s are not on good money generally speaking especially taking into account in the increased cost of living.

if people cannot afford it then obviously they won't join, but if clubs feel they need more people that aged to be members then they have to take into account that they actually do not have that much disposable income and have reduced memberships
		
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There is a reason they offer discounted rates to those age groups. It's not just price keeping them out .. people just aren't as interested. They are still playing other sports and naturally move to golf when their bodies take longer to recover etc 

So get some in early and they become your members of the future


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Sure it's a small number, thankfully, but I believe the 'no trainers' rules were because they were seen as working class footwear decades ago and that's the sort of person clubs wanted to keep out. That's why I'd still like to see that rule (and others) stamped out. Particularly daft nowadays when, as mentioned, most summer shoes are effectively trainers anyway so it makes zero sense.

I'm probably looking at it the wrong way though. Your last sentence is right, and if we extrapolate that further - a no trainers rule is a perfect indicator that the members at that particular club are best avoided!
		
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The rules for trainers along with jeans were when they were first introduced about the class of a person - that’s going back 50 plus years 

Some clubs would like to keep that in place - their choice , it would be the same any other establishments over the country where some have dress standards they want to keep for their reasons 

The clubs that have them prob won’t get rid of the rule for a while but those clubs are also very hard to become a member and also  expensive to play at - so as I said the people going there will be fully aware of what happens there. There are though at those clubs starting to bring in “golf bars” - RSG for example have their terrace area and snack bar where you can sit and have some food and drink in your golf clothes.

but for 99% of us on here we play at a club that’s suits our needs , we visit clubs that were are comfortable being at 

A lot of times people are just complaining about issues that don’t affect them on their day to day golf life


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Are you sure he's the "right sort" of person for yachting?
Seems a bit of a pleb to me 🤔
		
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You should see the discussions on the dress codes in Yacht Clubs on the yachtie forums I go on.

If you arent wearing deck shoes, red chinos, a blazer and a hat with an anchor on you would be shot or made to walk the plank.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The rules for trainers along with jeans were when they were first introduced about the class of a person - that’s going back 50 plus years

Some clubs would like to keep that in place - their choice , it would be the same any other establishments over the country where some have dress standards they want to keep for their reasons

The clubs that have them prob won’t get rid of the rule for a while but those clubs are also very hard to become a member and also  expensive to play at - so as I said the people going there will be fully aware of what happens there. There are though at those clubs starting to bring in “golf bars” - RSG for example have their terrace area and snack bar where you can sit and have some food and drink in your golf clothes.

but for 99% of us on here we play at a club that’s suits our needs , we visit clubs that were are comfortable being at

A lot of times people are just complaining about issues that don’t affect them on their day to day golf life
		
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So a rule intruduced to maintain class segregation remains in place today and that is not something worth bringing up. Nothing to see here, move along. Oh, but do not worry, some places have introduced a separate area for the plebs to have  drink so that is all OK.


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## evemccc (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Maybe it's the circles I roll in but very rarely do I hear time and money as a barrier to take up the sport.
What I do hear on regular occasions is "I wouldn't be seen dead on a golf course"
"I would end up banging someone out"

I Also got people to the range and semi interested until I start to teach them about typical etiquette and clubs rules.   They just say "stuff that".
		
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‘Not everything has to be for everyone’

To be truthful I think it is good how that has worked out then, your friends don’t want to play golf at a members club because if they did they’d probably ‘spark someone out’, and I am positive that all of the golf clubs I have been to wouldn’t want someone with a ready propensity for violence frequenting their establishment 

That therefore is a self-selecting ‘win-win’ for all 😁


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## JamesR (Dec 6, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			You should see the discussions on the dress codes in Yacht Clubs on the yachtie forums I go on.

If you arent wearing deck shoes, red chinos, a blazer and a hat with an anchor on you would be shot or made to walk the plank.
		
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Isn't a sweater over the shoulders, with the arms tied together in front, acceptable?
Bloody snobs


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			So a rule intruduced to maintain class segregation remains in place today and that is not something worth bringing up. Nothing to see here, move along. Oh, but do not worry, some places have introduced a separate area for the plebs to have  drink so that is all OK.
		
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Do you bother to read anything posted ? 

Where has someone said that it’s not worth bringing up ? 

Can you even read where it’s said many and prob most clubs have started to remove those sort of rules ? 

It’s not a “separate” area for plebs !!! It’s somewhere for people to go to if they don’t want to change from their golf kit - it’s the same as spike bar some clubs where people can wear their golf shoes 

Have you thought that maybe the issue is your preconceived ideas about golf clubs and the issue is also with yourself ?


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you bother to read anything posted ?

Where has someone said that it’s not worth bringing up ?

Can you even read where it’s said many and prob most clubs have started to remove those sort of rules ?

It’s not a “separate” area for plebs !!! It’s somewhere for people to go to if they don’t want to change from their golf kit - it’s the same as spike bar some clubs where people can wear their golf shoes

Have you thought that maybe the issue is your preconceived ideas about golf clubs and the issue is also with yourself ?
		
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Nope, no issues with me and golf clubs so need to go on the personal attack. 

You mention the reason for the rule and then say some clubs wish to keep in place, their choice, which is a tacit acceptance. You and others have also defended such  dress codes on many threads, again, acceptance. These clubs will be expensive and hard to become a member of so will not effect people. Agian, not decrying the rule, just stating that it is not worth complaining about because most people cannot afford it anyway. 

A spike bar is to stop is to stop muddy golf shoes trashing the carpet, practical. A bar where those who wish to wear trainers can drink is segregation. 

So yes, I read posts in full before I comment.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 6, 2022)

people talking about Yacht clubs made me look up my local one to see their rules

Twickenham Yacht Club -

can hire a boat if you don't own
no dress code
membership is £110pa

seems a lot less stuffy than some of the golf clubs we're talking about


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			people talking about Yacht clubs made me look up my local one to see their rules

Twickenham Yacht Club -

can hire a boat if you don't own
no dress code
membership is £110pa

seems a lot less stuffy than some of the golf clubs we're talking about
		
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Can you change your deck shoes in the car park?🤣


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			So a rule intruduced to maintain class segregation remains in place today and that is not something worth bringing up. Nothing to see here, move along. Oh, but do not worry, some places have introduced a separate area for the plebs to have  drink so that is all OK.
		
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It's called a choice.  Formal dinning and bar.  Informal spike bar and dinning.  Patio, walk off 18th and have a beer and food.  Take your pick.  

You can even get some fish with that chip!  



r0wly86 said:



			people talking about Yacht clubs made me look up my local one to see their rules

Twickenham Yacht Club -

can hire a boat if you don't own
no dress code
membership is £110pa

seems a lot less stuffy than some of the golf clubs we're talking about
		
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Yeah.  But there's also  a load of golf courses where you can turn up in whatever you like and play for £20


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Agreed. But then, a lot of these petty rules are 50+ years outdated and golf clubs are loath to change them for fear of losing 'traditions'.
		
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roll on the jeans and hoodies!


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## banjofred (Dec 6, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			people talking about Yacht clubs made me look up my local one to see their rules

Twickenham Yacht Club -

can hire a boat if you don't own
no dress code
membership is £110pa

seems a lot less stuffy than some of the golf clubs we're talking about
		
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I hope they at least check to see if you can sail.....I'd be a menace to navigation if they let me loose on the water. I guess a person might have a card stating they are qualified?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2022)

Part of the issue with public perception of golf and golfers is borne out of how the media use golf and golfers to exemplify particular mindsets, regardless of whether the comparison remains valid today as it might have 20yrs ago. 

So for example in the context of housing and nimbyism, I would not be surprised to hear or read in the coming days comments along the lines of …‘to satisfy the demands of middle class, conservative (small apolitical ‘c‘) golf club bores/types’…using golf and golf clubs as a handy metaphor or trope for a specific attitude and mindset of a sector of the population.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2022)

Once upon a time, that time might still be now, there were very popular nightclubs that wouldn’t let you through the door unless you complied with their dress code…which back in the 80s could see you dressed like Boy George…but my goodness the clubs were very popular and rammed every night. And all we were doing was boozing and bopping, or just hanging around posing or looking for a lumber…and you didn’t need to dress in any particular way to do that.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			roll on the jeans and hoodies!
		
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People already wear hoodies on the golf course, including many professionals - just in case the last decade has passed you by.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Part of the issue with public perception of golf and golfers is borne out of how the media use golf and golfers to exemplify particular mindsets, regardless of whether the comparison remains valid today as it might have 20yrs ago.

So for example in the context of housing and nimbyism, I would not be surprised to hear or read in the coming days comments along the lines of …‘to satisfy the demands of middle class, conservative (small apolitical ‘c‘) golf club bores/types’…using golf and golf clubs as a handy metaphor or trope for a specific attitude and mindset of a sector of the population.
		
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This is a very valid point as, whilst the reality of golf clubs may have changed, the wider perception has not and that is a problem. That is part of the reason that clubs see little in the way of wider support when there are proposals to turn courses into housing or solar farms. Golf clubs have been, in some instances, far too insular from the communities that they are in (appreciate not so much in Scotland) and that can come back to bite them.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Once upon a time, that time might still be now, there were very popular nightclubs that wouldn’t let you through the door unless you complied with their dress code…which back in the 80s could see you dressed like Boy George…but my goodness the clubs were very popular and rammed every night. And all we were doing was boozing and bopping, or just hanging around posing or looking for a lumber…and you didn’t need to dress in any particular way to do that.
		
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AH but that was dressing up smart to try and impress a prospective partner. Not sure that there are many at the golf clubs that I have been to that I want to dress up smart for and catch their eye


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I lasted over a decade but kept moving clubs hoping that the attitude and atmosphere would be different but it never was. May look to doing a points membership at the local resort course next year then I can play with a couple of mates then go to the pub.
		
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What you and Hovis and a few other like-minded souls need is your own club, then you could run it without any rules, utopia.
 No rules of golf, just make it up as you go along.
 No dress code, wear whatever you want.
 No equipment rules, non-conforming clubs here we come.
 Treat the course how you want, no raking, pitch mark repairing, just walk where you want to want, nobody to say otherwise.
 It probably sounds like heaven.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Golfnut1957 said:



			What you and Hovis and a few other like-minded souls need is your own club, then you could run it without any rules, utopia.
No rules of golf, just make it up as you go along.
No dress code, wear whatever you want.
No equipment rules, non-conforming clubs here we come.
Treat the course how you want, no raking, pitch mark repairing, just walk where you want to want, nobody to say otherwise.
It probably sounds like heaven.
		
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Nope, sounds like hell on earth. All that we are doing is questioning some of the petty and pointless rules and some outdates attitudes that we have experienced. Not sure that we have ever questioned the rules of golf or the equipment or practical, on course etiquette. Really not sure where you have got any of that from but I guess it is easier to pidgeonhole those who question things as the golfing equivalent of anarchists.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Are you sure he's the "right sort" of person for yachting?
Seems a bit of a pleb to me 🤔
		
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I do own a pair of shoes !


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I do own a pair of shoes !
		
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all the gear....


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			You should see the discussions on the dress codes in Yacht Clubs on the yachtie forums I go on.

If you arent wearing deck shoes, red chinos, a blazer and a hat with an anchor on you would be shot or made to walk the plank.
		
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I was made to walk the plank as a kid - well we couldn't afford a dog 😖


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

Can I wear jeans to play golf in yet?

Or will this lead to the downfall of society?


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I was made to walk the plank as a kid - well we couldn't afford a dog 😖
		
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OK, worryingly that made me laugh out loud.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2022)

................. and of course that's why we have dress code rules. 

Just to upset the oiks who want to dress like they've just come off the beach !


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			I was made to walk the plank as a kid - well we couldn't afford a dog 😖
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nope, no issues with me and golf clubs so need to go on the personal attack.

You mention the reason for the rule and then say some clubs wish to keep in place, their choice, which is a tacit acceptance. You and others have also defended such  dress codes on many threads, again, acceptance. These clubs will be expensive and hard to become a member of so will not effect people. Agian, not decrying the rule, just stating that it is not worth complaining about because most people cannot afford it anyway.

A spike bar is to stop is to stop muddy golf shoes trashing the carpet, practical. A bar where those who wish to wear trainers can drink is segregation.

So yes, I read posts in full before I comment.
		
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What do you think we can do about a club that wont allow trainers ? What is it that non members can do ? Beyond complaining on a forum ?

yes I have no issues with some aspects of a dress code in the club I’m a member off - the other areas we got changed via an AGM 

But I am fully aware that if I go to a club that’s got a different dress code then that’s my choice to either follow it or not go 

And having different areas when you have trainers etc is called having a choice


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			People already wear hoodies on the golf course, including many professionals - just in case the last decade has passed you by. 

Click to expand...

some do - as the 34 previous pages state - depends on the club's rules - although i have not seen many allowing jeans on the course

I have also spent the last deaced learning the out-of-bounds rule and saving up for the team's red t shirt!!


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## Pants (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Can I wear jeans to play golf in yet?
/QUOTE]
I really struggle to think of anything more uncomfortable to wear for golf - particularly if they get damp or, heaven forbid, wet

But.  Each to their own.
		
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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I hope they at least check to see if you can sail.....I'd be a menace to navigation if they let me loose on the water. I guess a person might have a card stating they are qualified?
		
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That happens at clubs where people join but have never played in their life.
We had two do this.
The pro gave them a few lessons and one is now quite good in her first year, but her husband should go sailing while she plays golf.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes there are courses where you can wear jeans to play in 🤷‍♂️
enjoy
		
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we should name a few - they could find a lot of business from here. Maybe send in the RMT to negotiate a good group discount!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			AH but that was dressing up smart to try and impress a prospective partner. Not sure that there are many at the golf clubs that I have been to that I want to dress up smart for and catch their eye

Click to expand...

Was it ?
You had to dress up to get past the Bouncer!
Trainers were not allowed when I was clubbing. (70s)


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you think we can do about a club that wont allow trainers ? What is it that non members can do ? Beyond complaining on a forum ?

yes I have no issues with some aspects of a dress code in the club I’m a member off - the other areas we got changed via an AGM

But I am fully aware that if I go to a club that’s got a different dress code then that’s my choice to either follow it or not go

And having different areas when you have trainers etc is called having a choice
		
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I agree that there is little that can be done except question these rules whenever possible. Change may not be achieved and it is true that if you want to use a facility then you have to abide by the rules but that would not stop me asking people there why the rule was in place so as I can better understand what it wants to achieve. As for different areas for trainers, we will have to disagree there. That is not choice, that is segregating but, agian, that would be something I would question as to why I could only drink in bar A and not in bar B simply due to my footwear.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

If one buys quality jeans. There is very little difference between modern denim and chinos in terms of comfort. I’ve played in jeans many times and comfort is not an issue.

I’d rather be wearing jeans when tentatively removing my ball from a gorse bush 😆


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Was it ?
You had to dress up to get past the Bouncer!
Trainers were not allowed when I was clubbing. (70s)
		
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Actually fair point but I guess you did not mind as much as there was an end motive to looking smart for the evening (I was just after you, 80s).


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If one buys quality jeans. There is very little difference between modern denim and chinos in terms of comfort. I’ve played in jeans many times and comfort is not an issue.

I’d rather be wearing jeans when tentatively removing my ball from a gorse bush 😆
		
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Never tried jeans but I have never understood the objection to cargo shorts, those extra pockets are very useful.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actually fair point but I guess you did not mind as much as there was an end motive to looking smart for the evening (I was just after you, 80s).
		
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I just bought very smart black trainers and never had a problem.
But if you turned up in bright day glow yellow/ orange you were not getting in.
Same in golf clubs I think.
But OEMs have been pushing these colours in golf shoes.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Never tried jeans but I have never understood the objection to cargo shorts, those extra pockets are very useful.
		
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Yes ours bans cargo shorts it’s bizzare.
Did ask the question of the Captain but blank stare!


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I just bought very smart black trainers and never had a problem.
But if you turned up in bright day glow yellow/ orange you were not getting in.
Same in golf clubs I think.
But OEMs have been pushing these colours in golf shoes.
		
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Always used to wear trainers to cricket in the summer to make sure I didnt have any shoes so couldnt go clubbing at the end of the night! Fastforward several hours and me seeing if anyone can lend me a pair of size 12s until the next day


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I just bought very smart black trainers and never had a problem.
But if you turned up in bright day glow yellow/ orange you were not getting in.
Same in golf clubs I think.
But OEMs have been pushing these colours in golf shoes.
		
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I was lucky in that I wore DMs a lot in those days so they passed the bouncer test.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			some do - as the 34 previous pages state - depends on the club's rules - although i have not seen many allowing jeans on the course

I have also spent the last deaced learning the out-of-bounds rule and saving up for the team's red t shirt!! 

Click to expand...

Or perhaps clubs are more relaxed to jeans than you think, but contrary to yours and other doom-mongers protestations, golfers have tended to use common sense and decided they didn't really want to wear jeans for golf anyway? Or somebody did once - and the world didn't end so nobody noticed?

If it took you ten years to save up for one shirt then I sincerely wish you the best of luck with _your _club's potential membership cost increase.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 6, 2022)

Really sorry to hijack this thread but our subs have increased by 13.3%. The Age Group 26/30 has had their discount removed.

The increase is understandable as we were badly hit by Storm Arwen. Roof blown off, flat which provided rental income affected. Had to move to a teepee. Claim still ongoing and not settled after over 12 months. Clubhouse closed for 2 months.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Or perhaps clubs are more relaxed to jeans than you think, but contrary to yours and other doom-mongers protestations, golfers have tended to use common sense and decided they didn't really want to wear jeans for golf anyway? Or somebody did once - and the world didn't end so nobody noticed?

If it took you ten years to save up for one shirt then I sincerely wish you the best of luck with _your _club's potential membership cost increase. 

Click to expand...

How many sports can you play wearing jeans ?

They aren’t sports attire for any sport at the end of the day , there will be the odd club that allow them but the majority of clubs won’t allow jeans whilst playing golf - they just aren’t sport attire of any sort at the end of the day and that’s why most clubs will say no jeans when playing.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many sports can you play wearing jeans ?

They aren’t sports attire for any sport at the end of the day , there will be the odd club that allow them but the majority of clubs won’t allow jeans whilst playing golf - they just aren’t sport attire of any sort at the end of the day and that’s why most clubs will say no jeans when playing.
		
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That's not why they don't allow jeans at all, otherwise they would allow general sports clothing wouldn't they? But they don't. So you're barking up the wrong tree there.


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2022)

The thing with jeans is that they're multi purpose
When I go to the range I wear jeans - as do the vast majority of other people I see there.
When I see people out walking or walking their dog...they've got jeans on
In the pub...people have jeans on.....
So you can hit golf balls, walk a distance..and sit in a bar with jeans on....
So what's wrong with wearing them on a golf course if someone wants to wear them..?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's not why they don't allow jeans at all, otherwise they would allow general sports clothing wouldn't they? But they don't. So you're barking up the wrong tree there.
		
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Are you sure you’re not confusing old reasons to new reasons

Many clubs allow jeans within the clubhouse along with trainers and hoodies etc 

And many clubs have changed what people can wear when playing golf but jeans will still not be changed by many because they are sport clothing and nothing to do with any historical class issues


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you sure you’re not confusing old reasons to new reasons

Many clubs allow jeans within the clubhouse along with trainers and hoodies etc

And many clubs have changed what people can wear when playing golf but jeans will still not be changed by many because they are sport clothing and nothing to do with any historical class issues
		
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I'll say it again and hopefully make it clearer. You cannot say that jeans are banned on the course because they are not sportswear, when most sportswear itself is also banned on the course.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many sports can you play wearing jeans ?

They aren’t sports attire for any sport at the end of the day , there will be the odd club that allow them but the majority of clubs won’t allow jeans whilst playing golf - they just aren’t sport attire of any sort at the end of the day and that’s why most clubs will say no jeans when playing.
		
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Darts that’s the only one I can think of really.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I'll say it again and hopefully make it clearer. You cannot say that jeans are banned on the course because they are not sportswear, when most sportswear itself is also banned on the course. 

Click to expand...

And I’ll say it again 🙄

Jeans are not sportswear of any description- not golf clothing , not any sport clothing 

There are many other sports clothing that has been tailored for use for golf - shorts , shoes , trousers , hoodies , even a tracksuit type trouser , cargo pants and trousers other items that other sports use when people play then 

Golf wear is sportswear 🙄 

Jeans are not in any type of sportswear for any sport - it’s as simple as that , unless you think it should be sportswear and then golf oems need to provide golf jeans 🤷‍♂️


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2022)

Always thought jeans were workwear .
That’s why they were not allowed like overalls.
But you can’t change your jeans in the car park.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Really sorry to hijack this thread but our subs have increased by 13.3%. The Age Group 26/30 has had their discount removed.

The increase is understandable as we were badly hit by Storm Arwen. Roof blown off, flat which provided rental income affected. Had to move to a teepee. Claim still ongoing and not settled after over 12 months. Clubhouse closed for 2 months.
		
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Are the insurers claiming act of God to get out of it? Rotten that it's not resolved 12 months on.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And I’ll say it again 🙄

Jeans are not sportswear of any description- not golf clothing , not any sport clothing

There are many other sports clothing that has been tailored for use for golf - shorts , shoes , trousers , hoodies , even a tracksuit type trouser , cargo pants and trousers other items that other sports use when people play then

Golf wear is sportswear 🙄

Jeans are not in any type of sportswear for any sport - it’s as simple as that , unless you think it should be sportswear and then golf oems need to provide golf jeans 🤷‍♂️
		
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So how come I'm allowed to wear these: https://www.marksandspencer.com/reg...5?color=BLACK#intid=plpnav_pid_pg1pip48g4r1c2 - (not sportswear) on the course but I can't wear these: https://www.sportsdirect.com/under-...er-knit-trousers-mens-510019#colcode=51001903 (definitely sportswear)? You've gone down a rabbit-hole here. Jeans are banned for the same reason as trainers - they were seen as common riff-raff clothes. It's nothing to do with sportswear.


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## banjofred (Dec 6, 2022)

Golf isn't exactly a "sport" that needs truly athletic clothing. Athletic clothing should be something that helps you to play better in whatever sport/activity you are taking part in. I wouldn't want to swim in jeans. I wouldn't want to wrestle in jeans. Martial Arts?...probably not. Would I play golf better or worse if I wore jeans? .....easy answer, it won't make *any* difference at all. The jeans I wear almost every day are built with a little stretch in them as well.

Long Live the Membership Cost thread!!!!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And I’ll say it again 🙄

Jeans are not sportswear of any description- not golf clothing , not any sport clothing

There are many other sports clothing that has been tailored for use for golf - shorts , shoes , trousers , hoodies , even a tracksuit type trouser , cargo pants and trousers other items that other sports use when people play then

Golf wear is sportswear 🙄

Jeans are not in any type of sportswear for any sport - it’s as simple as that , unless you think it should be sportswear and then golf oems need to provide golf jeans 🤷‍♂️
		
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I’ve walked up mountains in jeans without any problems. I’ve worked 10 hour shifts on a building site wearing jeans without any problems. Both activities that are far more demanding than playing golf. 

Can you please explain exactly how wearing jeans will impact on my ability to play the sport of golf?


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			So how come I'm allowed to wear these: https://www.marksandspencer.com/reg...5?color=BLACK#intid=plpnav_pid_pg1pip48g4r1c2 - (not sportswear) on the course but I can't wear these: https://www.sportsdirect.com/under-...er-knit-trousers-mens-510019#colcode=51001903 (definitely sportswear)? You've gone down a rabbit-hole here. Jeans are banned for the same reason as trainers - they were seen as common riff-raff clothes. It's nothing to do with sportswear.
		
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Let's get real.  Jeans are not allowed on a course for the same reason you can't wear a round neck t-shirt.   They don't want common scum frequenting their establishment.
I can't imagine why you would want to play in jeans (the chafing 😭). But if it makes you happy you can play in a tutu for all I care


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ve walked up mountains in jeans without any problems. I’ve worked 10 hour shifts on a building site wearing jeans without any problems. Both activities that are far more demanding than playing golf.

Can you please explain exactly how wearing jeans will impact on my ability to play the sport of golf?
		
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It doesn't.  It just looks bad to all of those snobs who are desperate not to have their clubs standards lowered.  They can't really show off how unique and exclusive their club is when they allow jeans.

A chap I was speaking to recently said with utter glee that you still needed a jacket to eat at his club.  You could see the snobbery oozing out of him. He was so proud 🤣


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are the insurers claiming act of God to get out of it? Rotten that it's not resolved 12 months on.
		
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No, Aviva dragging their heels? I am not involved but The Loss Assessor does not seem very good. With hindsight The Club should not have moved to 2 teepees to help the members. If they had closed all catering/bar The Insurance Company would have moved up a gear as they would be more involved with Business Interruption and paying staff wages. I understand they have 2 years to sort it out.


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## banjofred (Dec 6, 2022)

I've put this on before.....and I'm doing it again. This is ok, but only white socks are allowed?? As long as it is called "golf clothing"....it's ok to wear.


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2022)

My club has made enormous leaps in the last 10 years to become a very family orientated club that GB72 would be happy with.
There's very little stuffiness, just a few of the, lets say, more experienced members but they're small in number...
We have the usual dress code for the course  but pretty much anything goes in the clubhouse as long as it not ripped or mucky.
But...
Several longstanding members have told me that, 15 years ago, if I'd turned up to play and parked my driving school car in the car park with the headboard on I'd have been very quickly told to remove it or leave the car park.

These are the attitudes to working people that established the no jeans, no trade vehicles etc etc rules years ago and persisted in many clubs until quite recently
Sadly, many of these rules still exist in some clubs simply because the rules have been in place for so long that it's seen as a " it's always been like this" scenario.
I'm all for rules...if the rules make sense.
If it's a rule that started when Wing Commander Ponsonby-Smyth decided in 1955 that being a plumber and driving a van were  signs that you weren't the "right sort" for the club then that rule needs to be rescinded.....along with any others that don't correlate to the modern world.
Effectively judging people on the clothes they wear, the car they drive or the job they do may have been "ok" way back then...it isn't now.


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			So defensive when you don't have an answer for something. 😂 You dismissed the idea of someone not being able to afford a smart of shoes, so I offered another valid reason why somebody might not want to wear them.
		
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No you changed the argument to something totally unconnected to the original discussion.


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I can't disagree with most of this but most do have undesirable standards to many people.   Take your golf head off for a second a imagine you want to take up golf when you are confronted with :

1 you can't change you shoes there mate
2 you can't wear trainers but you can wear trainers if they are golf trainers
3 you have to wear specific shorts
4 your socks must be white
5 you have to keep your shirt tucked
6 that shirt better have a collar
7 you can't take your trolley in between the bunker and green
8 you can't walk where you want on the green
9 you can't talk when someone is playing
10 you can't talk/shout across the fairway
11 you have to take you hat off to shake hands
12 no, no mate. You can only play one ball. No practicing here
13 change your shoes to have a pint
14 don't park in the captains spot
15 get to the gate only to find you need a code to get out

You can understand why people think "stuff all that cobblers"
To  all of us the above is normal standard stuff.  But from the outside looking in.......... 😳😳😳😳
		
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Try signing up for a football team.

1. You have to wear this shirt
2. You have to wear these shorts
3. You have to wear these socks
4. You have to wear boots
5. You have to wear shinguards
6. You have to change in that changing room over there.

Doesn't seem to put many people off so trying to say that dress codes put people off golf is a load of crap.


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Try signing up for a football team.

1. You have to wear this shirt
2. You have to wear these shorts
3. You have to wear these socks
4. You have to wear boots
5. You have to wear shinguards
6. You have to change in that changing room over there.

Doesn't seem to put many people off so trying to say that dress codes put people off golf is a load of crap.
		
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Are you deliberately daft? It's a team game so obviously you match your teammates attire otherwise you wouldn't know who was on what team. And you certainly don't have to change in the changing room, half the time we don't even have one on a Sunday. 😆 A team kit isn't the same as a dress code for goodness sake.


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## D-S (Dec 6, 2022)

I once suggested (after a long debate in a meeting redress code) that perhaps we should adopt, as our new dress code, the simple slogan :-
*No shirt, No Shoes - No Golf * 
I would suggest it on here but perhaps it might discriminate against the trouserless.


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Are you deliberately daft? It's a team game so obviously you match your teammates attire otherwise you wouldn't know who was on what team. And you certainly don't have to change in the changing room, half the time we don't even have one on a Sunday. 😆 A team kit isn't the same as a dress code for goodness sake.
		
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I think you're the daft one if you can't see that a team strip is a dress code. Would you turn up in a blue strip when your team plays in red?


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I think you're the daft one if you can't see that a team strip is a dress code. Would you turn up in a blue strip when your team plays in red?
		
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That's a functional requirement of the game to have matching kits. It's not functional to have a collar on your shirt on the golf course, it's arbitrary, it serves no function at all.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's a functional requirement of the game to have matching kits. It's not functional to have a collar on your shirt on the golf course, it's arbitrary, it serves no function at all.
		
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He's actually made himself look like an Idiot with his own example.😂
A dress code/ team kit in football is literally pivotal to the game.   🤣🤣😂😂
They don't tell you what pants, shin pads or for some what colours hairband to wear 😜


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Try signing up for a football team.

1. You have to wear this shirt
2. You have to wear these shorts
3. You have to wear these socks
4. You have to wear boots
5. You have to wear shinguards
6. You have to change in that changing room over there.

Doesn't seem to put many people off so trying to say that dress codes put people off golf is a load of crap.
		
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So, is that analogy!


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## moogie (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Try signing up for a football team.



1. You have to wear this shirt

2. You have to wear these shorts

3. You have to wear these socks

4. You have to wear boots

5. You have to wear shinguards

6. You have to change in that changing room over there.



Doesn't seem to put many people off so trying to say that dress codes put people off golf is a load of crap.
		
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Yes then they all wear whatever the hell they like in the clubhouse bar

What a stupid example


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I think you're the daft one if you can't see that a team strip is a dress code. Would you turn up in a blue strip when your team plays in red?
		
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I might if I was the goalie. 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			It doesn't.  It just looks bad to all of those snobs who are desperate not to have their clubs standards lowered.  They can't really show off how unique and exclusive their club is when they allow jeans.

A chap I was speaking to recently said with utter glee that you still needed a jacket to eat at his club.  You could see the snobbery oozing out of him. He was so proud 🤣
		
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Why do you judge golf clubs based on a small minority 🤷‍♂️ same with judging golfers based on a small minority ?

There are no doubt clubs that don’t want to see people “banging someone out” or shouting across each other on a fairway or basically just doing what they want - but that’s prob the same with most sports clubs , that’s just anti social behaviour at the end of the day and that’s irrelevant to what trousers they wear or what trainers they were - that’s just the attitude of some , the same as there are some snobs in the world



Imurg said:



			My club has made enormous leaps in the last 10 years to become a very family orientated club that GB72 would be happy with.
There's very little stuffiness, just a few of the, lets say, more experienced members but they're small in number...
We have the usual dress code for the course  but pretty much anything goes in the clubhouse as long as it not ripped or mucky.
But...
Several longstanding members have told me that, 15 years ago, if I'd turned up to play and parked my driving school car in the car park with the headboard on I'd have been very quickly told to remove it or leave the car park.

These are the attitudes to working people that established the no jeans, no trade vehicles etc etc rules years ago and persisted in many clubs until quite recently
Sadly, many of these rules still exist in some clubs simply because the rules have been in place for so long that it's seen as a " it's always been like this" scenario.
I'm all for rules...if the rules make sense.
If it's a rule that started when Wing Commander Ponsonby-Smyth decided in 1955 that being a plumber and driving a van were  signs that you weren't the "right sort" for the club then that rule needs to be rescinded.....along with any others that don't correlate to the modern world.
Effectively judging people on the clothes they wear, the car they drive or the job they do may have been "ok" way back then...it isn't now.
		
Click to expand...

How many clubs are like that these days ? A very small minority around the world but it’s far from the norm that some want to portray about the sport and clubs 

How your club now is how most clubs are now and many have been for a number of years , in fact that’s the norm for most clubs and in fact any club I have visited this year - normal golf clothes for the course and then just relaxed for the clubhouse 

The blazer crew are very far and few between now and even those clubs will have facilities for people to eat and drink in a relaxed environment without the need to put a jacket and tie on etc

The ones who sit in the corner and tut at someone in a pair of trainers are dying away from the clubs


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

moogie said:



			Yes then they all wear whatever the hell they like in the clubhouse bar

What a stupid example
		
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Local rugby club has all players wearing a shirt and tie after each match 🤷‍♂️

also some football clubs will be the same


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's a functional requirement of the game to have matching kits. It's not functional to have a collar on your shirt on the golf course, it's arbitrary, it serves no function at all.
		
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No it's bloody simple. You play 2 sports. One of them you are happy to comply with the rules, the other you whinge about everything. Do us all a favour and stick to football.


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## moogie (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Local rugby club has all players wearing a shirt and tie after each match 🤷‍♂️































































































































































































































































































































































































































































also some football clubs will be the same
		
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Thanks for that































































Fountain of knowledge























































But I was replying to the football comparison































































Nobody mentioned rugby......￼


----------



## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

moogie said:



			Yes then they all wear whatever the hell they like in the clubhouse bar

What a stupid example
		
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No it's not, wear whatever you want when you leave the golf club.


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			I might if I was the goalie. 😉
		
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I was actually thinking about his stupid example when I remember my coach saying to me (the goal keeper).


Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you judge golf clubs based on a small minority 🤷‍♂️ same with judging golfers based on a small minority ?

There are no doubt clubs that don’t want to see people “banging someone out” or shouting across each other on a fairway or basically just doing what they want - but that’s prob the same with most sports clubs , that’s just anti social behaviour at the end of the day and that’s irrelevant to what trousers they wear or what trainers they were - that’s just the attitude of some , the same as there are some snobs in the world



How many clubs are like that these days ? A very small minority around the world but it’s far from the norm that some want to portray about the sport and clubs

How your club now is how most clubs are now and many have been for a number of years , in fact that’s the norm for most clubs and in fact any club I have visited this year - normal golf clothes for the course and then just relaxed for the clubhouse

The blazer crew are very far and few between now and even those clubs will have facilities for people to eat and drink in a relaxed environment without the need to put a jacket and tie on etc

The ones who sit in the corner and tut at someone in a pair of trainers are dying away from the clubs
		
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You didn't get the vibe I was going for.  Its not anti social behaviour to talk in someone's backswing. It's bad etiquette.   As for the "banging someone out". That comment was made after I said what discussions happen on a golf course.   One thing golfers need to realise is take that attitude out the club and you most certainly will get banged out.  

Anyway, the person in question said he couldn't play golf because of it.  At least he knows his limits


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			He's actually made himself look like an Idiot with his own example.😂
A dress code/ team kit in football is literally pivotal to the game.   🤣🤣😂😂
They don't tell you what pants, shin pads or for some what colours hairband to wear 😜
		
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I'm looking at you thinking you're the idiot if you can't see a simple comparison.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Dec 6, 2022)

Blimey winter is well & truly here 😂😂


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

This is becoming less than friendly.
Where's the ref, I mean the mods?


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## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm looking at you thinking you're the idiot if you can't see a simple comparison.
		
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No one else can either 😂🤣


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			This is becoming less than friendly.
Where's the ref, I mean the mods?
		
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He's grounded by the missus for going out with the wrong colour jumper on  - it's not just at golf clubs that it matters what you wear 😉


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			This is becoming less than friendly.
Where's the ref, I mean the mods?
		
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You're right and I actually don't give a crap anymore if I get a yellow or red card.


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You're right and I actually don't give a crap anymore if I get a yellow or red card.
		
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I'm sure it will all be fine.
Peace to all, whatever you're wearing. 😇


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## Orikoru (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			No it's bloody simple. You play 2 sports. One of them you are happy to comply with the rules, the other you whinge about everything. Do us all a favour and stick to football.
		
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There are plenty and I mean PLENTY of football rules I moan about as well.  (Further killing this argument of yours I might add.)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			I once suggested (after a long debate in a meeting redress code) that perhaps we should adopt, as our new dress code, the simple slogan :-
*No shirt, No Shoes - No Golf *
I would suggest it on here but perhaps it might discriminate against the trouserless.
		
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For me the dress code should be nice and simple 

On the course please wear appropriate golf attire 

In the clubhouse please wear clean respectful attire


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## Genu9 (Dec 6, 2022)

Is it remotely possible that someone can contribute to the original post. Or should I just start another tangent by saying "Doesn't it just annoy you when someone sneezes as you're about to putt"


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 6, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Is it remotely possible that someone can contribute to the original post. Or should I just start another tangent by saying "Doesn't it just annoy you when someone sneezes as you're about to putt"
		
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#685 had a go 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Genu9 (Dec 6, 2022)

Please Admin. Shut down this post to further replies..........


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me the dress code should be nice and simple

On the course please wear appropriate golf attire

In the clubhouse please wear clean respectful attire
		
Click to expand...

What, a black tie? 🤣


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 6, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Is it remotely possible that someone can contribute to the original post. Or should I just start another tangent by saying "Doesn't it just annoy you when someone sneezes as you're about to putt"
		
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I tried around 45 posts ago and had one reply And a couple more agreed

The problem with This Forum is that a few members, less than 10, which is a shame have NEVER been wrong in their life about anything. Those members find it difficult to see another member’s point of view.

 At times it is a strength to say “  sorry I was wrong, I made a mistake, you are correct!”


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## Genu9 (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			What, a black tie? 🤣
		
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....and still they carry on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2022)

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/golf-club-membership-subscriptions-warning/

All clubs are going to increase their fees because everything is increasing and not just utilities - staff costs , petrol for mowers , food and drink , greenkeeping items and it will filter to golf equipment

I suspect a number of clubs have got fixed rates in place for at least 12 months but it wouldn’t surprise if most clubs go up by around 5-10% minimum

It’s going to test memberships



Genu9 said:



			Is it remotely possible that someone can contribute to the original post. Or should I just start another tangent by saying "Doesn't it just annoy you when someone sneezes as you're about to putt"
		
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A lot of threads divert from the OP by their nature as discussion evolves - it should be ok providing it doesn’t get nasty or resort to insults 

the thread will over the next month as it’s renewal time no doubt divert back to fees etc


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2022)

I believe our fees are staying the same for next year. I think in the last 15 years the full membership fee has only increased by £50. Not sure that stat can be beaten by any club in the country.

Since Covid our membership as doubled, but even now we only have just under 600 members.


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## BrianM (Dec 6, 2022)

Just got my bill for the year, no increase 😂😂
I’d have paid whatever anyway.
On another note, this thread is a car crash 🤣🤣


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I believe our fees are staying the same for next year. I think in the last 15 years the full membership fee has only increased by £50. Not sure that stat can be beaten by any club in the country.

Since Covid our membership as doubled, but even now we only have just under 600 members.
		
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That is fantastic. What do you pay?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			That is fantastic. What do you pay?
		
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I’d need to check the exact figure but I think it’s £600


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## D-S (Dec 6, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			I believe our fees are staying the same for next year. I think in the last 15 years the full membership fee has only increased by £50. Not sure that stat can be beaten by any club in the country.

Since Covid our membership as doubled, but even now we only have just under 600 members.
		
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£550 in 2007 was worth considerably more than in 2022 . Not surprising you didn’t have a lot of members then, you are seriously more affordable now.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Just got my bill for the year, no increase 😂😂
I’d have paid whatever anyway.
On another note, this thread is a car crash 🤣🤣
		
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It’s the best thread for ages. 

Especially when someone makes a poor analogy then doubles down by calling other people idiots after making themselves look like one.


----------



## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s the best thread for ages.

Especially when someone makes a poor analogy then doubles down by calling other people idiots after making themselves look like one.
		
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Moving on, no?


----------



## hovis (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			Moving on, no?
		
Click to expand...

😂👍


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## Mel Smooth (Dec 6, 2022)

Would anybody like me to post something contentious on the LIV thread to dilute the tension here.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 6, 2022)

Mel Smooth said:



			Would anybody like me to post something contentious on the LIV thread to dilute the tension here. 

Click to expand...

At this rate this thread will be taking the number 1 spot in the average posts per day.


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## DaveR (Dec 6, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			I tried around 45 posts ago and had one reply And a couple more agreed

The problem with This Forum is that a few members, less than 10, which is a shame have NEVER been wrong in their life about anything. Those members find it difficult to see another member’s point of view.

At times it is a strength to say “  sorry I was wrong, I made a mistake, you are correct!”
		
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You're right and I'm probably one of those 10 so I'll bugger off this forum and reduce the number of dickheads to 9 👍


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## IanM (Dec 6, 2022)

December.  Not enough golf being played!


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You're right and I'm probably one of those 10 so I'll bugger off this forum and reduce the number of dickheads to 9 👍
		
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Nah, hang around. A friendly bunch here really. 👍


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## Jason.H (Dec 6, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			It's that time of year again when clubs start declaring their proposed increases for 2023. We all expected increases in line with something near inflation but my club is proposing increases of between 16-20% depending on membership levels.
I fear the worst for golf clubs as the cost of living crisis makes members consider what they need to afford. The majority of members at my club are over pension age and may struggle to justify continued membership.
		
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Our membership went up £50 to £650. Thats about half what I was paying at a different club in 2001 so can’t complain.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 6, 2022)

KenL said:



			Nah, hang around. A friendly bunch here really. 👍
		
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It will be once he’s gone!


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## KenL (Dec 6, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			It will be once he’s gone!
		
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Be nice...


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## Genu9 (Dec 7, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Our membership went up £50 to £650. Thats about half what I was paying at a different club in 2001 so can’t complain.
		
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Only £650 in Kent. That's super cheap. You on a 9 hole course?


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## DRW (Dec 7, 2022)

24.3% at an away club  (thankfully the full members only see a 12.5% increase)


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## hovis (Dec 7, 2022)

DRW said:



			24.3% at an away club  (thankfully the full members only see a 12.5% increase)
		
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## Bdill93 (Dec 7, 2022)

DRW said:



			24.3% at an away club  (thankfully the full members only see a 12.5% increase)
		
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While that's pretty crazy, anyone who can afford multiple memberships is likely in a respectable financial position. Good to hear full members weren't hit so hard!

Pink castle tees though..... (testing you here Voyager)


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600475244669669378


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 7, 2022)

Just got my email for subs £1408.85.
Just 9%.
Two of the guys I play with are not staying.
With bills and young kids it’s no suprize.
Top of the iceberg imo can see a lot not renewing.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 7, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just got my email for subs £1408.85.
Just 9%.
*Two of the guys I play with are not staying.*
With bills and young kids it’s no suprize.
Top of the iceberg imo can see a lot not renewing.
		
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Thats rubbish! Are they going elsewhere locally or giving up golf membership entirely?


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## DRW (Dec 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			While that's pretty crazy, anyone who can afford multiple memberships is likely in a respectable financial position. Good to hear full members weren't hit so hard!

Pink castle tees though..... (testing you here Voyager)
		
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I was really thinking about the turkeys dont vote for christmas thoughts. 

Would imagine it will mean quite a number of country members not renewing as the costs are pretty high. 

Unless visiting groups and waiting lists hold strong during this downturn/inflationary period, then big increases could happen the following year as well. Things may well be reverting back to precovid times for golf clubs, quicker than expected.

Time will tell....


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## Bdill93 (Dec 7, 2022)

DRW said:



*I was really thinking about the turkeys dont vote for christmas thoughts*. 

Would imagine it will mean quite a number of country members not renewing as the costs are pretty high.

Unless visiting groups and waiting lists hold strong during this downturn/inflationary period, then big increases could happen the following year as well. Things may well be reverting back to precovid times for golf clubs, quicker than expected.

Time will tell....
		
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Hahaha yeah I think you're bang on there! I imagine country memberships will suffer slightly with people making cut backs financially


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## JamesR (Dec 7, 2022)

We've been told that ours' will go up, but not sure by how much as yet


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 7, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Thats rubbish! Are they going elsewhere locally or giving up golf membership entirely?
		
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Giving up.
They said they might play a few opens but that’s it.


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 7, 2022)

Ours subs are up by 7%
But they have put up our opens by 66% !!!
It's noticeable that bookings are very slow for our opens atm, usually they get booked up very quickly, I think people will be looking to cut costs where they can for the next few months.

I usually play quite a few away opens, but I'm going to cut them right back next year & just play in a selected few where the club hasn't hiked the price right up.


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## D-S (Dec 7, 2022)

With the obvious high level of ‘golf club specific inflation’, clubs either need to raise more revenue or dramatically cut costs. Revenue comes from members and visitors (increasing F&B revenue in the foreseeable future seems a bit of a pipe dream) - either green fees and open prices go up (not an exact science as there is often a breaking point) or membership fees go up.
Cutting costs (assuming a significant profit is not currently made or that not making one at all is an option) means either less staff either due to redundancies or cutting pay and conditions. Most other expenditure is likely to have a significant impact on member/visitor experience - poorer course conditions, less F&B availability etc.. If this results in loss of members or visitors you are into a vicious circle.
It is a tough balancing act.
Do you want it the same price and worse or more expensive and the same?


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## chellie (Dec 7, 2022)

DRW said:



			24.3% at an away club  (thankfully the full members only see a 12.5% increase)
		
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Eeekk!!


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## 2blue (Dec 7, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			Ours subs are up by 7%
But they have put up our opens by 66% !!!
It's noticeable that bookings are very slow for our opens atm, usually they get booked up very quickly, I think people will be looking to cut costs where they can for the next few months.

I usually play quite a few away opens, but I'm going to cut them right back next year & just play in a selected few where the club hasn't hiked the price right up.
		
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Get yer se'll to Scarcroft in Leeds their Opens are a giveaway on an outstanding course


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2022)

Ours are going from £1,040 to about £1,100 next year so not too bad under the circumstances. Good value!!


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## Jason.H (Dec 8, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Only £650 in Kent. That's super cheap. You on a 9 hole course? 

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I’m 300 miles from Kent and it’s 18 holes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			I’m 300 miles from Kent and it’s 18 holes
		
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..and a very nice and tidy track it is into the bargain 👍


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## Genu9 (Dec 8, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			I’m 300 miles from Kent and it’s 18 holes
		
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Oops. Looked at 'likes' instead of where you were. But 300 miles from Kent would be Scotland, and your profile says Midlands.  Wishful thinking..........


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## KenL (Dec 8, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Oops. Looked at 'likes' instead of where you were. But 300 miles from Kent would be Scotland, and your profile says Midlands.  Wishful thinking..........

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Is Kent not more like 450 miles from South Scotland?


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Oops. Looked at 'likes' instead of where you were. But 300 miles from Kent would be Scotland, and your profile says Midlands.  Wishful thinking..........

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But then again, all of us "Up North" are 1,000's miles away from London


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2022)

Hardly…


2blue said:



			But then again, all of us "Up North" are 1,000's miles away from London
		
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Hardly…but far enough - though depends whether or not up north from London is Sheffield or Wick.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 9, 2022)

2blue said:



			But then again, all of us "Up North" are 1,000's miles years away from London
		
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Corrected that for you


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## SteveJay (Dec 9, 2022)

Ours are going up from £840 to £876, so not too bad at all.

Played with our Membership Director this week and he told me that we have offered membership to all those on our waiting list (about 60) after doing analysis on competition entries and tee time availabilty. 

They are being offered 15 month membership for a modest premium over the £876, and so far quite a few have taken that up. It is that move that has kept our fees at the level indicated. Without that extra income we would have faced a larger increase.


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## Captainron (Dec 9, 2022)

Ours is £1664 in 2023 which is only a small £100 odd rise from this year so pretty happy with that. 2 very different courses which I enjoy playing.


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## Jason.H (Dec 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and a very nice and tidy track it is into the bargain 👍
		
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Thanks,  you’re welcome to visit again next year when the weather is better.


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## Jason.H (Dec 9, 2022)

Genu9 said:



			Oops. Looked at 'likes' instead of where you were. But 300 miles from Kent would be Scotland, and your profile says Midlands.  Wishful thinking..........

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🤣 correction it’s 200 miles


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2022)

D-S said:



			Strangely clubs often relax their dress codes for large events. I have been to the Ladies National County finals with Gloucestershire many times often held at old fashioned clubs. They was one in Essex where almost all the players from 6 counties contravened a lot of the Ladies dress code but the club agreed to relax them for a week otherwise the event simply could not have been held.
		
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But that was Essex. They had to allow white stilettoes


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2022)

Budget for 2023:
- Energy costs up 100%
- Insurance up 85%
- Rates up 55%
- Staff costs up 10% (most staff in clubhouse on minimum wage)
- Course consumables (e.g. fertilizer) up on average 9%

The outcome:
- Subs up 10%
- Green fees up 30%

At this rate we will hit £3k in a couple of years. At these prices I will continue to always wear trainers in the clubhouse even though they do not meet the dress code (ok I don't wear trainers to the black tie events).


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## Crazyface (Dec 10, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Giving up.
They said they might play a few opens but that’s it.
		
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They won't be able to play in Opens if they aren't members of a club, as their H/C will not be valid.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			They won't be able to play in Opens if they aren't members of a club, as their H/C will not be valid.
		
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I thought that.
But they said your handicap never lapses .
But isn’t that only to join another club.?

They might be in for a shock.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 10, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought that.
But they said your handicap never lapses .
But isn’t that only to join another club.?

They might be in for a shock.
		
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You can get one for 40 quid a year now from golf England


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## Imurg (Dec 10, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You can get one for 40 quid a year now from golf England
		
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You can but it seems many clubs won't accept them for their Opens....rightly or wrong.


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 10, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You can get one for 40 quid a year now from golf England
		
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I seem to recall there was a waiting period before you could join iGolf if you have just left a club.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Budget for 2023:
- Energy costs up 100%
- Insurance up 85%
- Rates up 55%
- Staff costs up 10% (most staff in clubhouse on minimum wage)
- Course consumables (e.g. fertilizer) up on average 9%

The outcome:
- Subs up 10%
- Green fees up 30%

At this rate we will hit £3k in a couple of years. At these prices I will continue to always wear trainers in the clubhouse even though they do not meet the dress code (ok I don't wear trainers to the black tie events).
		
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I’ve got to assume you’re somewhere south of Oxford if you’re paying fees close to that! You’d be able to join 3 very decent courses and have change in the midlands 😂


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## JayB (Dec 10, 2022)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I seem to recall there was a waiting period before you could join iGolf if you have just left a club.
		
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Correct, 6 month waiting period. 

The best solution would be to join a club that offers a minimal fee membership option, for example Orchardleigh Golf and Country Club for £1 excluding golf union fees. Cheaper than iGolf and accepted for opens


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2022)

JayB said:



			Correct, 6 month waiting period.

The best solution would be to join a club that offers a minimal fee membership option, for example Orchardleigh Golf and Country Club for £1 excluding golf union fees. Cheaper than iGolf and accepted for opens
		
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That’s sort of bypassing the system surely
If that was allowed how would their caps be monitored?


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## D-S (Dec 10, 2022)

JayB said:



			Correct, 6 month waiting period.

The best solution would be to join a club that offers a minimal fee membership option, for example Orchardleigh Golf and Country Club for £1 excluding golf union fees. Cheaper than iGolf and accepted for opens
		
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Also you get a County Card and the EG insurance, no idea why anyone would do the iGolf thing.


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## D-S (Dec 10, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s sort of bypassing the system surely
If that was allowed how would their caps be monitored?
		
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Who’s monitoring the iGolfers handicaps? No peer review there.


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## hovis (Dec 10, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Budget for 2023:
- Energy costs up 100%
- Insurance up 85%
- Rates up 55%
- Staff costs up 10% (most staff in clubhouse on minimum wage)
- Course consumables (e.g. fertilizer) up on average 9%

The outcome:
- Subs up 10%
- Green fees up 30%

At this rate we will hit £3k in a couple of years. At these prices I will continue to always wear trainers in the clubhouse even though they do not meet the dress code (ok I don't wear trainers to the black tie events).
		
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So the staff are getting a pay rise in line with inflation 🤔.   Imagine that 😂


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2022)

hovis said:



			So the staff are getting a pay rise in line with inflation 🤔.   Imagine that 😂
		
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Not really .
If staff costs go up 10% that dosnt all go to the staff.
Will be lucky to get 7%. Rest goes to Taxman ,pension etc.


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## hovis (Dec 10, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not really .
If staff costs go up 10% that dosnt all go to the staff.
Will be lucky to get 7%. Rest goes to Taxman ,pension etc.
		
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So my 5% is more like 3% after taxman, pension etc 😬😳


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## Pants (Dec 10, 2022)

Tax is a fact of life, if you earn enough you pay it.  The more you earn the more you pay.  I had a guvner once who looked on paying tax as a badge of honour, so to speak.  He viewed it as the more tax he paid, the more he had in his bank account.  On the other hand, in theory, money into your pension should be to your benefit.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			So my 5% is more like 3% after taxman, pension etc 😬😳
		
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No I meant it costs your employer money to employ you.
Pension contributions etc.
So if it’s a 10% expense on employees it dosnt all go to the employee.


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## sunshine (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not really .
If staff costs go up 10% that dosnt all go to the staff.
Will be lucky to get 7%. Rest goes to Taxman ,pension etc.
		
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I’m not an expert on this, but if staff get a 10% pay rise, tax , pension, NI also will go up 10% so overall staff costs increase 10%


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## Wedgey (Dec 11, 2022)

£10 increase from £675 to £685. Happy with that.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I’m not an expert on this, but if staff get a 10% pay rise, tax , pension, NI also will go up 10% so overall staff costs increase 10%
		
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It said staff costs not pay rise.
Costs include any costs incurred by the employer
So 7% pay rise could be 10% cost to employer.
No expert myself but that’s how my boss always explained it to me.
If I was on 30k it cost 35k to employ me.


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## KenL (Dec 11, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You can get one for 40 quid a year now from golf England
		
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Yes, Scottish Golf do something similar.
But, when you enter opens they often ask what your home club is.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

KenL said:



			Yes, Scottish Golf do something similar.
But, when you enter opens they often ask what your home club is.
		
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In that case I don’t see the point
If your not a member of a club and can’t get in an open why do you need a handicap.


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## KenL (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			In that case I don’t see the point
If your not a member of a club and can’t get in an open why do you need a handicap.
		
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I didn't say you can't enter any opens.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

KenL said:



			I didn't say you can't enter any opens.
		
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Sorry my mistake.
But if you don’t have a home club are you balloted out?


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## KenL (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sorry my mistake.
But if you don’t have a home club are you balloted out?
		
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I don't know for all clubs. Might be that they let people through if they have spaces???


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## fundy (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			In that case I don’t see the point
If your not a member of a club and can’t get in an open why do you need a handicap.
		
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That doesnt appear to have been the plan when the iGolfer handicaps were launched but its quite clear that a large portion of clubs and members are adamant that non members will sandbag a handicap whereas all club members handicaps are accurate and no one would ever dream of sandbagging

So basically its pointless and not worth the paper its written on because it was a deterrent to being a club member so clubs closed ranks and made it useless

As recommended the cheapest membership which gives you a handicap still a far better option (and of course theyre reviewing your handicap far more than the central scheme are arent they lol)


PS If you earn 30K you most likely cost your company far more than 35k


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

fundy said:



			That doesnt appear to have been the plan when the iGolfer handicaps were launched but its quite clear that a large portion of clubs and members are adamant that non members will sandbag a handicap whereas all club members handicaps are accurate and no one would ever dream of sandbagging

So basically its pointless and not worth the paper its written on because it was a deterrent to being a club member so clubs closed ranks and made it useless

As recommended the cheapest membership which gives you a handicap still a far better option (and of course theyre reviewing your handicap far more than the central scheme are arent they lol)


PS If you earn 30K you most likely cost your company far more than 35k 

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Yes but my boss said I was worth every Penny.


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## sunshine (Dec 12, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			It said staff costs not pay rise.
Costs include any costs incurred by the employer
So 7% pay rise could be 10% cost to employer.
No expert myself but that’s how my boss always explained it to me.
If I was on 30k it cost 35k to employ me.
		
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ok, you're on 30k and it costs 40k to employ you. Staff costs go up 10% to 44k. This can be divided into:
1. Your salary goes up 10% from 30k to 33k.
2. The NI and pension contributions paid by your employer goes up 10% from 10k to 11k.


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## MACM85 (Dec 12, 2022)

Just had an email from the club saying our membership is increasing by 13% across all membership options. Club is in Surrey


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## Teebs (Dec 12, 2022)

13% is pretty high, is membership full / would you expect to lose any members at that rate increase?


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## MACM85 (Dec 12, 2022)

Teebs said:



			13% is pretty high, is membership full / would you expect to lose any members at that rate increase?
		
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I am on an intermediate category so I will still be paying under £800 for the year. I will stay with that. In regards to the full membership that is where you may see a few leave. However the membership have generally been there donkey years.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 12, 2022)

KenL said:



			I don't know for all clubs. Might be that they let people through if they have spaces???
		
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In the north east most clubs are not accepting entries from Scottish Golf "members".


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			ok, you're on 30k and it costs 40k to employ you. Staff costs go up 10% to 44k. This can be divided into:
1. Your salary goes up 10% from 30k to 33k.
2. The NI and pension contributions paid by your employer goes up 10% from 10k to 11k.
		
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Maybe I am not explaining it well pay rise has nothing to do with it.
Op said staff costs.
So it’s 10% minus what it costs the business.
What’s left is what is avaliable for a rise.


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## patricks148 (Dec 12, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			In the north east most clubs are not accepting entries from Scottish Golf "members".
		
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I think I'm going to ask our membership sec if we got any of these in the couple of opens we have, don't think it will be any but playing with him Friday .


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## Jacko_G (Dec 12, 2022)

KenL said:



			I don't know for all clubs. Might be that they let people through if they have spaces???
		
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The reason for it is "greed" or a flick of two fingers at SG. If you look at a lot of Opens in the small print now they have a clause for nomad golfers which states the entry is the fee plus a full green fee.


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## sunshine (Dec 12, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Maybe I am not explaining it well pay rise has nothing to do with it.
Op said staff costs.
So it’s 10% minus what it costs the business.
What’s left is what is avaliable for a rise.
		
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The employer's costs like NI and pension contributions are a % of the salary. So if the salary goes up 10%, the NI also goes up 10%, so the overall cost of employing someone is still a 10% uplift.
Staff costs will not rise if you don't give the staff a pay rise.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 12, 2022)

sunshine said:



			The employer's costs like NI and pension contributions are a % of the salary. So if the salary goes up 10%, the NI also goes up 10%, so the overall cost of employing someone is still a 10% uplift.
Staff costs will not rise if you don't give the staff a pay rise.
		
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No they are not.
They are on top of what the salary is


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			I think I'm going to ask or membership sec if we got any of these innthe couple of opens we have don't think it will be any but playingnwith him Friday .
		
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I didn't play in it myself, but noticed the Newmacher 3-dayer was won by a SG "member". I'm afraid that just grinds my gears, big voucher for that


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2022)

MACM85 said:



			Just had an email from the club saying our membership is increasing by 13% across all membership options. Club is in Surrey
		
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Worrying…Surrey club member also…13% would see us break £2k.  Guess we’d lose some members but we have a big waiting list and a good bunch of Academy memberships who are dead keen to join Full.  We had some surplus last year so hopefully we can limit increase to well under 10%.

Question for those whose subs are increasing at the moment would be if they know how confident their clubs are in what their energy costs are going to be after April next year.  I think (not 100% sure tbh) we know what the OFGEM cap on energy rates will be, but do we know what support or other cap the government will provide to business?


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## sunshine (Dec 13, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			No they are not.
They are on top of what the salary is
		
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I'm so bad at explaining myself.

The additional costs like NI and pension contributions are calculated as a % of the salary. So if the salary paid to employees goes up 10%, the NI paid by the employer to the government also goes up 10%, so the overall cost of employing someone is still a 10% uplift.
Staff costs will not rise if you don't give the staff a pay rise.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 13, 2022)

sunshine said:



			I'm so bad at explaining myself.

The additional costs like NI and pension contributions are calculated as a % of the salary. So if the salary paid to employees goes up 10%, the NI paid by the employer to the government also goes up 10%, so the overall cost of employing someone is still a 10% uplift.
Staff costs will not rise if you don't give the staff a pay rise.
		
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While in principle you are correct in practice you are not.  Employer's only start paying NI after the equivalent of the personal allowance.  So if you earn say 20k,  then NI contributions are a % of £7430.  If you then were to get a 10% rise taking you to £22k  the employer would be paying a % of £9,740 an increase of over 26% in employer NI contributions.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 13, 2022)

Home clun 0% change for 2023
Still waiting on away club fees


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## Ruggy (Dec 13, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			While in principle you are correct in practice you are not.  Employer's only start paying NI after the equivalent of the personal allowance.  So if you earn say 20k,  then NI contributions are a % of £7430.  If you then were to get a 10% rise taking you to £22k  the employer would be paying a % of £9,740 an increase of over 26% in employer NI contributions.
		
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Plus if the employer contributes to a pension scheme this will also go up by the same % increase. Similar if staff are paid overtime.


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## richbeech (Dec 13, 2022)

I've just moved clubs in the last few weeks, although I applied to my new club in May but had to go onto a waiting list etc. When I applied the fees were £1,810 which is about £600 more than I'm paying at my old club but it's well worth it, it's the best course in the area. As I'm then going through the application process (interview etc) I find out the new club has put the fees up by 10% which I was half expecting but it was still a bit of wounder. Fees are now more or less £2k but I still think it's just about worth it when I weigh up all of the benefits I get for being a member. Needless to say I've been a member there now for a few weeks and it's very nice. Totally different from my old club.


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## D-S (Dec 13, 2022)

I heard of a club in Devon that are putting their fees up dramatically (well over 20) as they were confident of a strong membership and long waiting list. However, when they went to their waiting list and told them that fees were significantly higher now than what they had signed up for, it mostly disappeared.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I heard of a club in Devon that are putting their fees up dramatically (well over 20) as they were confident of a strong membership and long waiting list. However, when they went to their waiting list and told them that fees were significantly higher now than what they had signed up for, it mostly disappeared.
		
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which club was that out of interest, as an exiled Devonian


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			I heard of a club in Devon that are putting their fees up dramatically (well over 20) as they were confident of a strong membership and long waiting list. However, when they went to their waiting list and told them that fees were significantly higher now than what they had signed up for, it mostly disappeared.
		
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Just seen annual subs at Newport are the same as Saunton!!   Blooming crazy...but I guess Saunton has folk queuing up to pay £170 a round so that keeps subs down!


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## r0wly86 (Dec 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			Just seen annual subs at Newport are the same as Saunton!!   Blooming crazy...but I guess Saunton has folk queuing up to pay £170 a round so that keeps subs down!
		
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also sod all people in North Devon, Newport has over 3x population of North Devon, plus it takes ages to get there from anywhere so limited to just the local community


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			also sod all people in North Devon, Newport has over 3x population of North Devon, plus it takes ages to get there from anywhere so limited to just the local community
		
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You are right about much of that, but have you been to Newport?   

Some of the Devon courses get lots of visitors so less reliant on members...but it must be a shock if they are felling smug about waiting-lists then they get no takers!  I have been considering Country Membership down there, but the price is making me think twice.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 13, 2022)

IanM said:



			You are right about much of that, but have you been to Newport?   

Some of the Devon courses get lots of visitors so less reliant on members...but it must be a shock if they are felling smug about waiting-lists then they get no takers!  I have been considering Country Membership down there, but the price is making me think twice.
		
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Unfortunately I have been to Newport.

Saunton does get a lot of visitors especially in the high season which will help, but I guess they are a bit hamstrung also by the limited population and economics of the area. I'm in the same boat as you, I looked at Country Membership but the amount of time I could actually get down there would make it a very expensive. Despite visiting my parents in Devon it would still be well over an hour each way to get there


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Dec 13, 2022)

At the AGM of a club near me recently, it was announced that the fees would be increased by 20%.
When asked if there was a waiting list, the reply was "no".
I would think that the 20% increase may well bite them where it hurts.


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## banjofred (Dec 13, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			At the AGM of a club near me recently, it was announced that the fees would be increased by 20%.
When asked if there was a waiting list, the reply was "no".
I would think that the 20% increase may well bite them where it hurts.
		
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Where was that? I'm still waiting to see what Oakdale is going to do...only rumors so far. Little to no increase seems to be the betting line........

The only place I know of that had a waiting list was Pannal


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			At the AGM of a club near me recently, it was announced that the fees would be increased by 20%.
When asked if there was a waiting list, the reply was "no".
I would think that the 20% increase may well bite them where it hurts.
		
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Seems some firms are profiteering from this colc.
Some clubs are following. Have they been asked to justify the rise.?


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Dec 13, 2022)

In reply to Banjofred and clubchamp, I understand that the club is Shipley. The rise was apparently justified as there had been no increase during the Covid outbreak.
I have friends in high places at Oakdale, so I could possibly find out.


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## SurreyGolfer (Dec 13, 2022)

I've just been offered (and accepted) a place at a members golf club in Surrey. Fees this FY are ~£1850, pro-rata'd for me. Was told as part of interview process they're going to be north of £2k from April. By contrast my current club where I'm a flexi member, the 7-day membership is going to about £1950, no joining fee as heavily used by pay & play too. 

I'm in it for the long haul as it's really well placed for me and a good course, but I'm assuming this is why my ~16 month wait on the waiting list was shorter than anticipated.


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## MACM85 (Dec 13, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			In reply to Banjofred and clubchamp, I understand that the club is Shipley. The rise was apparently justified as there had been no increase during the Covid outbreak.
I have friends in high places at Oakdale, so I could possibly find out.
		
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Blimey that is a hefty fee for a pay and play club. Which one is it?

Spill the beans on what new club you're joining!


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			In reply to Banjofred and clubchamp, I understand that the club is Shipley. The rise was apparently justified as there had been no increase during the Covid outbreak.
I have friends in high places at Oakdale, so I could possibly find out.
		
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Shipley is already over £1200, which is steep for that part of the world. It’s a nice course, but a bit stuffy. I’m not sure I’d pay another 20% on top of the £1200.

They have always been more expensive as they say it’s to allow for fewer societies and visitors.


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2022)

Just had my invoice for Newport.   

Last year, £1150.  (inc 50 bar levy and 25 locker)
2023 £1295         (inc 50 bar levy and 25 locker)

12.6% increase.  Could have been worse! We are also operating on the basis of full membership, so lower levels of socs and green fees.  Will be interesting to see if any/many leave! 

My mate has joined somewhere very cheap and never plays there, but has three country memberships and the rest Opens!


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## D-S (Dec 13, 2022)

r0wly86 said:



			which club was that out of interest, as an exiled Devonian
		
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East Devon GC


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2022)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			At the AGM of a club near me recently, it was announced that the fees would be increased by 20%.
When asked if there was a waiting list, the reply was "no".
I would think that the 20% increase may well bite them where it hurts.
		
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But as mentioned previously, the increase in the cost of energy hits every club equally, though obviously in proportion to the size of the clubs estate. But just simply if my club requires an extra £36 from me to cover energy then that’s 2%, but if it requires £36 from each member for a club with subs of £360 that’s 10%, but the member of both clubs faces the same actual ££ increase. For that reason I don’t think quoting % alone is hugely informative.


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## r0wly86 (Dec 15, 2022)

D-S said:



			East Devon GC
		
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One of my favourite courses, but always been on the pricey side


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## IanM (Dec 15, 2022)

Mate of mine's is going up from £850 to 1360. ￼

He asked me not to name the club, but rebellion expected.  Reason given as lots of investment in past few years and now they need to recoup. 

Watching with interest.  No way is that a 1300 pa course in its region!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2022)

IanM said:



			Mate of mine's is going up from £850 to 1360. ￼

He asked me not to name the club, but rebellion expected.  Reason given as lots of investment in past few years and now they need to recoup.

Watching with interest.  No way is that a 1300 pa course in its region!
		
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Way to bankrupt a club…spend a load of money without the prior approval of the membership then hike subs to cover the outlay…


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## KenL (Dec 15, 2022)

IanM said:



			Mate of mine's is going up from £850 to 1360. ￼

He asked me not to name the club, but rebellion expected.  Reason given as lots of investment in past few years and now they need to recoup.

Watching with interest.  No way is that a 1300 pa course in its region!
		
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A 60% increase!  Has the club been struggling?  There will be a mass exodus if other clubs in the area are looking for members.


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## IanM (Dec 15, 2022)

Yep. 60%
Proprietary club.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Green fees also gone from too cheap , to too expensive!


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep. 60%
Proprietary club.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Green fees also gone from too cheap , to too expensive!
		
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They are off their heids. No way will that work. My away club is literally on my doorstep and currently under £700, if it suddenyl popped to over a grand, even with the location I'd be off. Big shock coming there


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep. 60%
Proprietary club.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Green fees also gone from too cheap , to too expensive!
		
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It sounds to me like they are attempting to become an entirely pay & play course by stealth.    whether it will work or not though will I guess depend on location and the level of competetion for that model.


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 16, 2022)

Golf has grown massively since Covid 
I think now it will start to struggle big time
Especially the family man who works 9 - 5 during the week.
Not sure how many will part with up to £2000 for summer evening & weekend golf.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			Yep. 60%
Proprietary club.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Green fees also gone from too cheap , to too expensive!
		
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I mean how thick can the owners be?! How does the new cost compare with the nearest few courses?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

Ours is going up 12% - £130 quid a year more , works out at around £2.50 a week 👍 and we would still be one of the cheapest in the area


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			It sounds to me like they are attempting to become an entirely pay & play course by stealth.    whether it will work or not though will I guess depend on location and the level of competition for that model.
		
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Bdill93 said:



			I mean how thick can the owners be?! How does the new cost compare with the nearest few courses?
		
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On edge of a small town, not masses of clubs within 10-15 miles... it is 20 miles or so from its nearest city... (which may or may not have a cathedral and a rugby team!  )

Will let you know what happens.


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

[/QUOTE[/QUOTE]


Captain_Black. said:



			Golf has grown massively since Covid
I think now it will start to struggle big time
Especially the family man who works 9 - 5 during the week.
Not sure how many will part with up to £2000 for summer evening & weekend golf.
		
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The decline has already stated.  Almost all the clubs in my area "boasting" a waiting list have been posting on fb recently offering membership.   I remember saying the the secretary "be careful how you treat people on the way up because you'll meet them again on the way back down"


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			Golf has grown massively since Covid
I think now it will start to struggle big time
Especially the family man who works 9 - 5 during the week.
Not sure how many will part with up to £2000 for summer evening & weekend golf.
		
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Will depend on the product - many clubs have waiting lists at the moment , I suspect half the people prob have them on multiple clubs , but if the product is good and value for someone’s money then the golf club will continue to thrive. 

I suspect on the whole most clubs will be fully aware of the issues 

There will of course be the odd mainly proprietary club who will have milked their cow dry and May suffer


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## Jason.H (Dec 16, 2022)

I’ve met a few people this year who are members at more than one club.


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## Ruggy (Dec 16, 2022)

Captain_Black. said:



			Golf has grown massively since Covid
I think now it will start to struggle big time
Especially the family man who works 9 - 5 during the week.
Not sure how many will part with up to £2000 for summer evening & weekend golf.
		
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This!!!

For basic comparison my main sport is hockey (don't shoot me!) I pay £100 membership and £10 a game (22 game league season). For this I get training sessions, all that is needed with games (pitch hire, lighting, umpires), mileage payments if taking others and a hot meal after games...

I can't justify paying so much for a golf membership as well with a young family as well. I'll keep going with twilight rates whilst I can....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruggy said:



			This!!!

For basic comparison my main sport is hockey (don't shoot me!) I pay £100 membership and £10 a game (22 game league season). For this I get training sessions, all that is needed with games (pitch hire, lighting, umpires), mileage payments if taking others and a hot meal after games...

I can't justify paying so much for a golf membership as well with a young family as well. I'll keep going with twilight rates whilst I can....
		
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I played hockey for years 

It’s very hard to make comparisons across different sports due to the multiple differences in the funding required to make the sports work 

As an example - how much staff costs is there at you hockey club ? How much does the astro maintenance cost or is it part of a school who look after it ? 

It’s the same with football , cricket etc 

The running costs of a golf club are hugely different but it’s understandable that some will justify to pay for membership if they don’t feel they will get value for their money


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## Captainron (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruggy said:



			This!!!

For basic comparison my main sport is hockey (don't shoot me!) I pay £100 membership and £10 a game (22 game league season). For this I get training sessions, all that is needed with games (pitch hire, lighting, umpires), mileage payments if taking others and a hot meal after games...

I can't justify paying so much for a golf membership as well with a young family as well. I'll keep going with twilight rates whilst I can....
		
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Hockey is nuts expensive now. £100 membership and £15 a match for me. Plus I have the 15 and 13 year old in the senior team with me. £7.50 each per game for them plus £50 membership. 

Run up on the old Club Buzz like a casino jackpot! 

But Like Phil says. Running a hockey club costs peanuts next to a golf club.


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## Ruggy (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I played hockey for years

It’s very hard to make comparisons across different sports due to the multiple differences in the funding required to make the sports work

As an example - how much staff costs is there at you hockey club ? How much does the astro maintenance cost or is it part of a school who look after it ?

It’s the same with football , cricket etc

The running costs of a golf club are hugely different but it’s understandable that some will justify to pay for membership if they don’t feel they will get value for their money
		
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I did try to clarify with a "simple" comparison 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that in competitive market across all sports, Golf is at risk of pricing itself out of the market.


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruggy said:



			This!!!   For basic comparison my main sport is hockey (don't shoot me!) I pay £100 membership and £10 a game (22 game league season). For this I get training sessions, all that is needed with games (pitch hire, lighting, umpires), mileage payments if taking others and a hot meal after games...

I can't justify paying so much for a golf membership as well with a young family as well. I'll keep going with twilight rates whilst I can....
		
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Divide the running costs of anything by the number of members and there's your subs! (plus or minus other income/nature of club i.e. Proprietary or Members')   As Phil said, there associated operating costs are very different.  

I am now also panicking at the thought of @Captainron at large, brandishing a hockey stick!!


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2022)

It's going to hit the 20/30s age group i think..It's going to be harder to justify the cost with everything else going up too.
Because it's not just the subs....it's the equipment,  the bar, the fiver for the sweep etc etc...
Times are tough and a relatively large expense - compared to other activities - some families will have a decision to make.
Those who are members at 2 or 3 clubs may have a think as well..
We're capped at inflation +1% so, hopefully, the powers that be get a handle on inflation before March.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			It's going to hit the 20/30s age group i think..It's going to be harder to justify the cost with everything else going up too.
Because it's not just the subs....it's the equipment,  the bar, the fiver for the sweep etc etc...
Times are tough and a relatively large expense - compared to other activities - some families will have a decision to make.
Those who are members at 2 or 3 clubs may have a think as well..
We're capped at inflation +1% so, hopefully, the powers that be get a handle on inflation before March.
		
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I think this was coming anyway. Covid gave golf an inflated ego regarding its position in the world. It was the only sport that people could play, you could only get on courses with a membership, people were furloughed or working from home, some actually had more disposable income and less to spend it on,  it was the perfect storm for getting people onto golf courses. Now, people are back playing football, rugby, cricket etc, golf courses are back open to pay and play guests so membership is not needed, people are back at work and many are back commuting, pubs, restaurants and other social options are back open and vying for a slice of people's income and I suspect that quite a few clubs did little to capitalise on that new found popularity and so, now times are getting tighter, here comes the crash.


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think this was coming anyway. Covid gave golf an inflated ego regarding its position in the world. It was the only sport that people could play, you could only get on courses with a membership, people were furloughed or working from home, some actually had more disposable income and less to spend it on,  it was the perfect storm for getting people onto golf courses. Now, people are back playing football, rugby, cricket etc, golf courses are back open to pay and play guests so membership is not needed, people are back at work and many are back commuting, pubs, restaurants and other social options are back open and vying for a slice of people's income and I suspect that quite a few clubs did little to capitalise on that new found popularity and so, now times are getting tighter, here comes the crash.
		
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I think you're right..
If clubs expected yhe boom to continue they could be in for a shock.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Despite the difference in running costs, I think the earlier comparison is a fair one in that to the average person the running costs are largely irrelevant and what they look at is the cost to them. Yes, the running costs are far less but to the average punter, they can get coaching, facilities and matches in other sports for far less than the cost of playing golf and if they are gong to commit time to a sport then that comes into it.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			I think you're right..
If clubs expected yhe boom to continue they could be in for a shock.
		
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I think that even the most one eyed of golf fans must have been able to see that the boom was going to be at best short lived and the real challenge was going to be stopping membership falling off a cliff when it ended.


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think that even the most one eyed of golf fans must have been able to see that the boom was going to be at best short lived and the real challenge was going to be stopping membership falling off a cliff when it ended.
		
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You'd be surprised.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			You'd be surprised.
		
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Sadly, not really. Golf memeberships jump at a when it is almost literally the only thing you can do during a pandemic and people have unprecedented free time and nothing to do with it. 'Oh that is becuase golf is wonderful and club membership is great and a bargain and this is going to keep going forever'


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## Jason.H (Dec 16, 2022)

On a plus note some may be able to join their preferred club without a £1k joining fee.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

It will be down to the clubs to ensure they find ways to keep members and to keep up the interest with golf

All other sports have been active for over a year now , we have had a full winter and then another summer where football , cricket etc became fully open again - and golf was still able to increase the participation 

The majority of the golf clubs will have made sure that new members are fully integrated within the club.

If the product is good enough and people are enjoying the sport then they will continue to play the sport. 

Some will stop playing golf , some will move to a different level of membership, but let’s be honest the majority will carry on. 

Golf has changed because of Covid - I know some will have the negative view of the sport and members clubs but many have done a lot of work to attract new members and then keep them.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 16, 2022)

I must confess, I do wonder so many clubs run their years Jan to December, rather than July to June.


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## D-S (Dec 16, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I must confess, I do wonder so many clubs run their years Jan to December, rather than July to June.
		
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We changed to April-March from Jan-Dec. It was bit of a hassle doing a 15 month year (subs were paid in two chunks) but it is a no brainer as January is the worst time to present people with a large bill for something they can't necessarily even use if the weather is bad and isn't 'good; for another 3 or 4 months. It also meant that a lot of people forgot to renew and eventually did a couple or more months late and the amount of chasing was huge.


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## evemccc (Dec 16, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Way to bankrupt a club…spend a load of money without the prior approval of the membership then hike subs to cover the outlay…
		
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Are we talking about golf or the govt?!?


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## evemccc (Dec 16, 2022)

The Covid golf ‘boom’ didn’t benefit the average golfer - GFs at fancy courses and at the average course went through the (relative) roof —- courses ‘could’ reintroduce entrance fees and hike membership costs if they wanted to as the demand was there —— I think as long as too many courses don’t go under, then a long term return to the (pre-2020) golf mean, should help the average golfer


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

One of the guys I play and work with is a grass cutter (to put it simply). He tied the head green keeper up in knots when having a debate about the increase in machinery and other associated products.    Don't get me wrong.  It's clearly gone up buy my pal said there's definitely a bandwagon being jumped on


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 16, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I must confess, I do wonder so many clubs run their years Jan to December, rather than July to June.
		
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Yes me to.
We have just recived our £1400 subs bill while the course has been shut for 9 days and is shut this weekend.
Make more sense to get the bill when the course is pristine.
To hardened golfers it would make no difference but if someone is thinking about not staying it might just sway them.


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## Imurg (Dec 16, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes me to.
We have just recived our £1400 subs bill while the course has been shut for 9 days and is shut this weekend.
Make more sense to get the bill when the course is pristine.
To hardened golfers it would make no difference but if someone is thinking about not staying it might just sway them.
		
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Exactly.?
Seeing a large bill right now could be that straw....it's a nonsensical time to do it.
Problem with June/July is the possibility of holidays taking precedence over other things..
March/April and the worst of the weather is, hopefully,  behind you and the Spring and Summer are fast approaching.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes me to.
We have just recived our £1400 subs bill while the course has been shut for 9 days and is shut this weekend.
Make more sense to get the bill when the course is pristine.
To hardened golfers it would make no difference but if someone is thinking about not staying it might just sway them.
		
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Totally agree. To hand over a big chunk of cash when it may be 3 months before you can use the course properly is just insane marketing wise. Take the cash whilst the sun is shining and the course is immaculate.


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## Pants (Dec 16, 2022)

Leaving aside for a moment the potential membership cost increases, I find it somewhat amusing that this thread recognises the tremendous uptake in club membership over the last couple of years, waiting lists, joining fees et al whilst many of the same posters were commenting on the possible decline in people taking up golf as they think that it is seen as an elitist sport and the rules and regulations, dress codes, shoe changing etc put people off.

😮😮


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Pants said:



			Leaving aside for a moment the potential membership cost increases, I find it somewhat amusing that this thread recognises the tremendous uptake in club membership over the last couple of years, waiting lists, joining fees et al whilst many of the same posters were commenting on the possible decline in people taking up golf as they think that it is seen as an elitist sport and the rules and regulations, dress codes, shoe changing etc put people off.

😮😮
		
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Not at all, I think that there were an exceptional set of circumstances during and post pandemic and it is now that we will see how many of those hurdles have been cleared. I would like nothing better than to see golf membership and participation remain strong but when there is a period that you are effectively the only saloon in town, it is hardly surprising that people drink there. Hobson's Choice can lead to some strange figures


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## Orikoru (Dec 16, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes me to.
We have just recived our £1400 subs bill while the course has been shut for 9 days and is shut this weekend.
Make more sense to get the bill when the course is pristine.
To hardened golfers it would make no difference but if someone is thinking about not staying it might just sway them.
		
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Makes sense. My club's renewal date is May 1st, so as you say, at least you're paying at a time when you can go out and play immediately and enjoy the course, plus it's not right next to Christmas when everyone is skint.


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## sunshine (Dec 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Exactly.?
Seeing a large bill right now could be that straw....it's a nonsensical time to do it.
Problem with June/July is the possibility of holidays taking precedence over other things..
March/April and the worst of the weather is, hopefully,  behind you and the Spring and Summer are fast approaching.
		
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I think the optimum time to send out the renewal bill is when the Masters is on! Always gets everyone excited for the golf season.


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## Pants (Dec 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Not at all, I think that there were an exceptional set of circumstances during and post pandemic and it is now that we will see how many of those hurdles have been cleared. I would like nothing better than to see golf membership and participation remain strong but when there is a period that you are effectively the only saloon in town, it is hardly surprising that people drink there. Hobson's Choice can lead to some strange figures
		
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Please Greg (?), don't presume to tell me that I am wrong in what I might find somewhat amusing.  We are all welcome to our own opinions and I think you will find that I don't necessarily jump on the same bandwagon as many others do - just for the sake of posting and generating "debate " and that I'm quite happy to propose an alternative view to the polarised entrenched positions, if I believe it appropiate - or, as in this case, point out some incongruities that amuse me.


.


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## chellie (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			Divide the running costs of anything by the number of members and there's your subs! (plus or minus other income/nature of club i.e. Proprietary or Members')   As Phil said, there associated operating costs are very different. 

I am now also panicking at the thought of @Captainron at large, brandishing a hockey stick!! 

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Where does the ball go


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2022)

Pants said:



			Please Greg (?), don't presume to tell me that I am wrong in what I might find somewhat amusing.  We are all welcome to our own opinions and I think you will find that I don't necessarily jump on the same bandwagon as many others do - just for the sake of posting and generating "debate " and that I'm quite happy to propose an alternative view to the polarised entrenched positions, if I believe it appropiate - or, as in this case, point out some incongruities that amuse me.


.
		
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I had assumed that you were pointing out perceived incongruities in my comment and I was merely clarifying my position whereby it is, in certain circumstances, still be possible for golf to boom and also have hurdles to the uptake of the sport and of membership. If that were not the case then my apologies. My stance is still one that there is very much wrong with many things relating to golf clubs and that the boom associated with the pandemic has papered over a number of cracks but only time will tell if I am right or wrong on that front. Contrary to the belief of some on here, I want to see change and not failure (except where the PGA and LIV are concerned where I think that they should both be torn down and the game rebuilt globally at a pro level). Never seen you as one who posts for the sake of it and apologies if I have inferred that.


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## KenL (Dec 16, 2022)

evemccc said:



			Are we talking about golf or the govt?!?
		
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Watch out - politics about. 🤣


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2022)

chellie said:



			Where does the ball go

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I suspect "it stays gone!"


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			One of the guys I play and work with is a grass cutter (to put it simply). He tied the head green keeper up in knots when having a debate about the increase in machinery and other associated products.    Don't get me wrong.  It's clearly gone up buy my pal said there's definitely a bandwagon being jumped on
		
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Costs for greenkeepers have gone up anything north of 25% - fuel , equipment , seed , labour costs etc


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Costs for greenkeepers have gone up anything north of 25% - fuel , equipment , seed , labour costs etc
		
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Said who?  The club?  The green keepers?  Sure they have to disclose their books but who is going to go through them and check their claims.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			Said who?  The club?  The green keepers?  Sure they have to disclose their books but who is going to go through them and check their claims.
		
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So the head greenkeepers are lying about their costs ? 

Or the club and treasurer are lying ?

At members clubs all accounts are made public to all members even more so incorporated clubs

And yes I have seen the books and the rising costs of the greenstaff at my club


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## nickjdavis (Dec 16, 2022)

Just got our renewal notice through the other day

prices are going up from £900 to £930 but there is an early renewal discount, so, if you renew before Mid January, it will only cost £815, which is pretty much exactly what I paid last year when taking advantage of the early renewal discount. This year te only early renewal difference is that it is limited to the first two weeks of the calendar year (last year I think you got the discount up until the end of February....our membership period starts from April 1st)

Interestingly the club will now be applying a joining fee for new members. In over 20 years of being a member we have never had a joining fee.


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## D-S (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			Said who?  The club?  The green keepers?  Sure they have to disclose their books but who is going to go through them and check their claims.
		
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I was the Course Director at my Club and I can certainly confirm that machinery increases were/are in the region of 20-25% as we got several quotes from different manufacturers and did all that we could to look at different specs etc. to try to reduce the increase but there was little to be done. The same thing for agronomy products.
If the Club was just increasing for the fun of it (and it was a members club) you would be able to see it in the books and either there would be deliberate waste or a very large profit the following year, either way it’s easy to pick up.


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the head greenkeepers are lying about their costs ?

Or the club and treasurer are lying ?

At members clubs all accounts are made public to all members even more so incorporated clubs

And yes I have seen the books and the rising costs of the greenstaff at my club
		
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I'm saying the club use language like "green keepers costs have increased by upto 25%“. When in fact is more like 10% but that one bag off washers was 25%.

The above are hypothetical examples before we start talking about the cost of washers.


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

D-S said:



			I was the Course Director at my Club and I can certainly confirm that machinery increases were/are in the region of 20-25% as we got several quotes from different manufacturers and did all that we could to look at different specs etc. to try to reduce the increase but there was little to be done. The same thing for agronomy products.
If the Club was just increasing for the fun of it (and it was a members club) you would be able to see it in the books and either there would be deliberate waste or a very large profit the following year, either way it’s easy to pick up.
		
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I have no doubt about the increase in costs.  I would love someone to forensically analyse the books after a year and see what the actual net difference is.  I am fully aware that this money would be put back in the club but after the way I saw multiple clubs capitalising on covid nothing would surprise me


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## D-S (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have no doubt about the increase in costs.  I would love someone to forensically analyse the books after a year and see what the actual net difference is.  I am fully aware that this money would be put back in the club but after the way I saw multiple clubs capitalising on covid nothing would surprise me
		
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But if it is a members club how can it ‘capitalise’ on COVID?


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## hovis (Dec 16, 2022)

D-S said:



			But if it is a members club how can it ‘capitalise’ on COVID?
		
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By increased joining fees because of demand.  Increasing green fees for visitors because of demand.   Giving nothing back to the members when it was locked down despite admiting they done quite well out of the furlow and grants ect. 
Of course I'm talking about 2 maybe 3 courses I know of but I imagine they weren't alone


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## D-S (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			By increased joining fees because of demand.  Increasing green fees for visitors because of demand.   Giving nothing back to the members when it was locked down despite admiting they done quite well out of the furlow and grants ect.
Of course I'm talking about 2 maybe 3 courses I know of but I imagine they weren't alone
		
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But any money they ‘didn’t give back’ or took in furlough or grants or by increasing green fees or joining fees by definition either gets invested back into the club for the benefit of members or reduces the amount members have to pay for subscriptions or food and beverage. The club is run and financed by the members for the members, no one is pocketing the money for personal gain.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm saying the club use language like "green keepers costs have increased by upto 25%“. When in fact is more like 10% but that one bag off washers was 25%.

The above are hypothetical examples before we start talking about the cost of washers.
		
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But it’s not “more like 10% - it’s more like 25% for the machinery and fuel and seed etc  



hovis said:



			I have no doubt about the increase in costs.  I would love someone to forensically analyse the books after a year and see what the actual net difference is.  I am fully aware that this money would be put back in the club but after the way I saw multiple clubs capitalising on covid nothing would surprise me
		
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which are these “multiple” clubs that capitalised on Covid and what is it that they did ? 

If by increasing fees etc - most did that after Covid after losing a lot of income over Covid because of the drop in visitor and society income 

You seem to be very unlucky that each club you pick has so many issues


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 16, 2022)

I suppose costs are all relative depending on an individuals circumstances & enthusiasm.
As sport goes, golf is quite expensive but to those who perhaps have a different pastime like say Karting / Car or Motorcycle racing / Rallying etc there is no comparison.
Anything to do with Horses as anyone who has ever been involved will know is another massive money pit.
I used to have a season ticket to watch professional football, not the Premiership, but even that is now silly money.
Possibly going fishing for the day is still a relatively low cost pastime which I used to do & my actually take up again next year.


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## NearHull (Dec 16, 2022)

D-S said:



			We changed to April-March from Jan-Dec. It was bit of a hassle doing a 15 month year (subs were paid in two chunks) but it is a no brainer as January is the worst time to present people with a large bill for something they can't necessarily even use if the weather is bad and isn't 'good; for another 3 or 4 months. It also meant that a lot of people forgot to renew and eventually did a couple or more months late and the amount of chasing was huge.
		
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We did just that as well.  We are also toughening up the ‘grace’ period of not paying.  There does seem to be a handful of members who push the payment hard right.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			It's going to hit the 20/30s age group i think..It's going to be harder to justify the cost with everything else going up too.
*Because it's not just the subs....it's the equipment,  the bar, the fiver for the sweep etc etc...*
Times are tough and a relatively large expense - compared to other activities - some families will have a decision to make.
Those who are members at 2 or 3 clubs may have a think as well..
We're capped at inflation +1% so, hopefully, the powers that be get a handle on inflation before March.
		
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This is key, when I was going through my worst spell it wasn’t just £1500 a year in subs. I generally only played once a week so £30 per round, add onto that a coffee and toast/bap pre round, £10 sweep (compulsory to enter the roll up) then a casual coffee/pint after and you could easy double your weekly subs. These figures were 2019-2020

It’s obvious that dropping the F&B side reduces the costs as does it impact the social value of the membership benefits.

The high risk category has to be younger single income house holds, that £40-60 a week cost will be swallowed up by increases in COL such as food, fuel/travel costs now people are no longer WFH, and heating.

It’s clear from this thread that the punter is going to need to be 100% happy with their product of shelling out in the current times.


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2022)

Covid certainly stimulated demand.
Post covid economic turbulence will reverse that.  

All sectors will have to work out how they deal with it.


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## Albo (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			Covid certainly stimulated demand.
Post covid economic turbulence will reverse that.  

All sectors will have to work out how they deal with it.
		
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While I do agree, what golf has going for it, is some people will be very invested in it and may be reluctant to take a hit on that investment.
Buying clubs, balls, clothing etc is a big outlay and some may stick with it due to that, absolutely many will take the hit and sell what they have invested with the need to save money but a fair number won’t, I’d imagine.

I wonder if EBay and the likes will be an early barometer for people getting out


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2022)

No. EBAY is always stacked out with kit!

The barometer is emails from Clubs begging you to join or play, that preciously told you to naff off!


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## Oddsocks (Dec 16, 2022)

IanM said:



			No. EBAY is always stacked out with kit!

The barometer is emails from Clubs begging you to join or play, that preciously told you to naff off!

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I’m being bombarded from golf bidder who are clearly running a tracker to see what I’ve viewed …. Not that I’m looking of course 😇


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## banjofred (Dec 17, 2022)

I found this interview interesting concerning the headaches he has in running a golf course. Golf course owner of Carus Green/Kendal.


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## Teebs (Dec 17, 2022)

Some interesting viewpoints above. We've had no indication yet but the subs aren't due until 1st April 2023. Would expect +10%, so another £8/month or so..


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## OnTour (Dec 17, 2022)

decent watch and very interesting. 



banjofred said:



			I found this interview interesting concerning the headaches he has in running a golf course. Golf course owner of Carus Green/Kendal.






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## ExRabbit (Dec 18, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I found this interview interesting concerning the headaches he has in running a golf course. Golf course owner of Carus Green/Kendal.






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I'd allready seen the Golfmates game with him and really enjoyed the interview. I'll have to try to go and play the course as it is only an hour or so away from me.


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2022)

Our increase was ratified at the Agm. Low turn out due to the snow.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			One of the guys I play and work with is a grass cutter (to put it simply). He tied the head green keeper up in knots when having a debate about the increase in machinery and other associated products.    Don't get me wrong.  It's clearly gone up buy my pal said there's definitely a bandwagon being jumped on
		
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How often does your "grass cutter" friend have to service other machinery rather than his mowers?

How much does he invest in machinery every year including maintenance plans?

How much does he spend on sand 3/4 times a year to carry out sanding and coring of greens/aprons/tees? Sand has risen more than 50% in cost.

How much fertilizer and wetting agent does your "grass cutter" friend buy at an increase of 70%.

In essence having seen the rise in costs and physical evidence of what our golf club has paid out I would suggest your mate is talking pish and your greenkeeper couldn't be bothered entertaining him.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 18, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			How often does your "grass cutter" friend have to service other machinery rather than his mowers?

How much does he invest in machinery every year including maintenance plans?

How much does he spend on sand 3/4 times a year to carry out sanding and coring of greens/aprons/tees? Sand has risen more than 50% in cost.

How much fertilizer and wetting agent does your "grass cutter" friend buy at an increase of 70%.

In essence having seen the rise in costs and physical evidence of what our golf club has paid out I would suggest your mate is talking pish and your greenkeeper couldn't be bothered entertaining him.
		
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Yes we ordered  a new Air 2 and in two weeks it went up by £7000.
They have honoured the quote they gave us.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 18, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes we ordered  a new Air 2 and in two weeks it went up by £7000.
They have honoured the quote they gave us.
		
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Exactly - you cannot hide or manipulate these things on the balance sheet and end of year accounts. 

The PHYSICAL increase in raw materials and machinery is astronomical.


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## Billysboots (Dec 18, 2022)

Ours have gone up about 8%. The club have cited energy costs, increases in staff wages and a reasonable investment in the course. We’re proprietary owned and full 7-day membership is still comfortably less than £1k a year.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 18, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			Exactly - you cannot hide or manipulate these things on the balance sheet and end of year accounts.

The PHYSICAL increase in raw materials and machinery is astronomical.
		
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What is worrying us most is when this col does settle down these suppliers are not going to put the prices back anywhere near what they were.


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## JamesR (Dec 19, 2022)

Jacko_G said:



			How often does your "grass cutter" friend have to service other machinery rather than his mowers?

How much does he invest in machinery every year including maintenance plans?

How much does he spend on sand 3/4 times a year to carry out sanding and coring of greens/aprons/tees? Sand has risen more than 50% in cost.

How much *fertilizer* and wetting agent does your "grass cutter" friend buy at an increase of 70%.

In essence having seen the rise in costs and physical evidence of what our golf club has paid out I would suggest your mate is talking pish and your greenkeeper couldn't be bothered entertaining him.
		
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I deal with a lot of farmers, and fert' prices have skyrocketed in the last year.
I spoke to a chap on Friday who spent £235 per tonne a year ago, recently bought some for £740 per tonne (and it's gone down a bit from the highest prices).


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## DeanoMK (Dec 20, 2022)

Was having a debate with some other members of LB in a whatsapp group last night as they're all kicking off at the price increase, saying how they're just jumping on the bandwagon and the increase isn't justified, etc. I was providing some balance to the argument, with actual facts and they all threw their toys out the pram and kicked me out 🤣

One was arguing that he can name 25 cheaper courses in St Albans that are cheaper and better, I couldn't help but laugh.


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2022)

DeanoMK said:



			Was having a debate with some other members of LB in a whatsapp group last night as they're all kicking off at the price increase, saying how they're just jumping on the bandwagon and the increase isn't justified, etc. I was providing some balance to the argument, with actual facts and they all threw their toys out the pram and kicked me out 🤣

One was arguing that he can name 25 cheaper courses in St Albans that are cheaper and better, I couldn't help but laugh.
		
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I really don’t get why so many don’t understand why clubs are having to put their subscription fees up. Increased energy costs impact on just about every area of the business of running a golf club - do members really expect to not have to contribute? It’s not rocket science, surely?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2022)

DeanoMK said:



			Was having a debate with some other members of LB in a whatsapp group last night as they're all kicking off at the price increase, saying how they're just jumping on the bandwagon and the increase isn't justified, etc. I was providing some balance to the argument, with actual facts and they all threw their toys out the pram and kicked me out 🤣

One was arguing that he can name 25 cheaper courses in St Albans that are cheaper and better, I couldn't help but laugh.
		
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Which courses did they mention 😂

Was one of them by any chance and ex presidents son who was looking to go to a worse course nearby but cost more 😂

Did they not read the accounts and the Treasurers Note that went with that highlighted why the increase


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## D-S (Dec 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really don’t get why so many don’t understand why clubs are having to put their subscription fees up. Increased energy costs impact on just about every area of the business of running a golf club - do members really expect to not have to contribute? It’s not rocket science, surely?
		
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We know full well that, if increases were minimal but resulted in any reduction in services or condition, who would be the loudest moaners.


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2022)

I see no issue with prices going up as costs increase. That said, I would like to see assurances from the club that they would put in place fee reductions if or when supply costs, utilities etc return to a more manageable level. I will be the first to admit that I have not been a club member anywhere near as long as many on here but I lived through times of low energy costs, low supply prices etc but am not sure that i have ever gone into a new year of membership with an announcement that prices and costs are lower this year and so we are reducing membership costs by 5%


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			We know full well that, if increases were minimal but resulted in any reduction in services or condition, who would be the loudest moaners.
		
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Exactly. If golfers want clubs to maintain the level of service they provide, on and off the course, or even improve it, then it takes a seriously naive or downright stupid individual to expect not to have to pay a little more. Especially in these strange times.


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## sunshine (Dec 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I see no issue with prices going up as costs increase. That said, I would like to see assurances from the club that they would put in place fee reductions if or when supply costs, utilities etc return to a more manageable level. I will be the first to admit that I have not been a club member anywhere near as long as many on here but I lived through times of low energy costs, low supply prices etc but am not sure that i have ever gone into a new year of membership with an announcement that prices and costs are lower this year and so we are reducing membership costs by 5%
		
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This will depend on the type of club.
A proprietary club is looking to maximise profits and return on investment so unlikely to lower fees unless there is no demand and people start leaving.
A private members club is just distributing its costs to the members. The members can decide to cut costs to keep the fees low.


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## Barking_Mad (Dec 20, 2022)

The higher up the chain you go the more price gouging by large companies there is going on. It doesn't get much publicity (instead they prefer to blame wages), but it's happening on a massive scale.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 20, 2022)

Barking_Mad said:



			The higher up the chain you go the more price gouging by large companies there is going on. It doesn't get much publicity (instead they prefer to blame wages), but it's happening on a massive scale.
		
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There is some serious profiteering going on out there.


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2022)

I do always raise an eyebrow to the labour cost comments in general. I am not hearing of anyone getting 10-20% pay rises that is apparrently inflating costs.


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## D-S (Dec 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I see no issue with prices going up as costs increase. That said, I would like to see assurances from the club that they would put in place fee reductions if or when supply costs, utilities etc return to a more manageable level. I will be the first to admit that I have not been a club member anywhere near as long as many on here but I lived through times of low energy costs, low supply prices etc but am not sure that i have ever gone into a new year of membership with an announcement that prices and costs are lower this year and so we are reducing membership costs by 5%
		
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I am sure this will happen at the same time as the negotiated pay decreases come through and the CPI and the RPI have been negative for a few months.


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			I am sure this will happen at the same time as the negotiated pay decreases come through and the CPI and the RPI have been negative for a few months.
		
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The things we are talking about would not be impacted by the CPI or RP1, raw materials and chemicals, industrial machinary, energy prices, do go up and down. As I mentioned, I am not seeing the 10-20% salary increases and so, yes, in real terms, the costs would conceivably go down and that could well justify reduction in membership fees to reflect the reduced costs in place.


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## D-S (Dec 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			The things we are talking about would not be impacted by the CPI or RP1, raw materials and chemicals, industrial machinary, energy prices, do go up and down. As I mentioned, I am not seeing the 10-20% salary increases and so, yes, in real terms, the costs would conceivably go down and that could well justify reduction in membership fees to reflect the reduced costs in place.
		
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Labour cost is an important part of any golf club budget, as it is a key component part of all other cost, unless this reduces the subs cannot reduce. I would be very surprised if clubs aren’t increasing wages by 5% plus - I would also be very surprised if they introduce wage cuts in years to come. 
Machinery prices are very unlikely to reduce, do you foresee a crash in the price of new cars in the short-term? 
When was the last time you saw prices of a lot of products reduce across the board? If they do, including energy, this would of course be reflected in the standard measures of inflation.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2022)

My company buys in raw materials including some chemicals. These have been shooting up in price since covid, simply because demand rose and mfrs could get away with it. Chemical companies have been doing as well as oil & gas in the last 3 years, massive profits. Those prices have jumped again this year, due to the increase in energy costs, most chemicals have a degree of energy intensity needed to produce them. Unless major new companies go into the market these prices will not drop any time soon as their is no incentive for them to drop. How many companies will voluntarily drop from making a 300% margin to a 100% margin? They can still sell them at these prices so they will.

What I am seeing in my industry will be matched, as many have said already, in the fertilisers, chemicals, etc that all golf clubs need. These prices will not be dropping any time soon, not by a long way.


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## Captain_Black. (Dec 20, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			There is some serious profiteering going on out there.
		
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Whilst there is no doubt some cost have gone silly high, mainly fuel / fertiliser ect.
Undoubtedly there is quite a bit of opportunistic profiteering going on.
I was in a golf shop the other day & spotted a lightweight golf bag, just what I needed for a foreign golf holiday next year, nice bag but not worth £169.00.
Same with the golf jumpers, nice jumpers but not at £140 a pop.
So I ordered a really nice lightweight bag from Amazon for £39.99 & a nice jumper for £29.99
Both great quality & just what I was looking for.


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## sunshine (Dec 20, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My company buys in raw materials including some chemicals. These have been shooting up in price since covid, simply because demand rose and mfrs could get away with it. Chemical companies have been doing as well as oil & gas in the last 3 years, massive profits. Those prices have jumped again this year, due to the increase in energy costs, most chemicals have a degree of energy intensity needed to produce them. Unless major new companies go into the market these prices will not drop any time soon as their is no incentive for them to drop. How many companies will voluntarily drop from making a 300% margin to a 100% margin? They can still sell them at these prices so they will.

What I am seeing in my industry will be matched, as many have said already, in the fertilisers, chemicals, etc that all golf clubs need. These prices will not be dropping any time soon, not by a long way.
		
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Also, many chemicals are derived from oil so costs heavily impacted by price of crude.


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## fundy (Dec 20, 2022)

People keep quoting oil price, i assume this the same crude oil price which is now the same as it was 12 mths ago and less than 15% higher than it was in early 2019. Not sure that justifies the rises some are talking about


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## sunshine (Dec 20, 2022)

fundy said:



			People keep quoting oil price, i assume this the same crude oil price which is now the same as it was 12 mths ago and less than 15% higher than it was in early 2019. Not sure that justifies the rises some are talking about
		
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Good point, but oil went up beyond $100 in March when the crisis in Ukraine kicked off and has only eased below $100 in the last couple of months. Products being sold now were probably manufactured when oil price was higher, there is always a lagging effect.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 20, 2022)

GB72 said:



			The things we are talking about would not be impacted by the CPI or RP1, raw materials and chemicals, industrial machinary, energy prices, do go up and down. As I mentioned, I am not seeing the 10-20% salary increases and so, yes, in real terms, the costs would conceivably go down and that could well justify reduction in membership fees to reflect the reduced costs in place.
		
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The big factor here is whether the club is increasing to the full need or simply reducing the impact with a partial increase which effectively will eat into its reserves.

If it’s the later then fees would need to stay higher despite reductions simply to recoup the dent in the bank account.


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## fundy (Dec 20, 2022)

sunshine said:



			Good point, but oil went up beyond $100 in March when the crisis in Ukraine kicked off and has only eased below $100 in the last couple of months. Products being sold now were probably manufactured when oil price was higher, there is always a lagging effect.
		
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The worry is when that lagging effect is permanent, and as a cynic I expect a large chunk of this one will be


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## DeanoMK (Dec 21, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which courses did they mention 😂

Was one of them by any chance and ex presidents son who was looking to go to a worse course nearby but cost more 😂

Did they not read the accounts and the Treasurers Note that went with that highlighted why the increase
		
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Not quite that person, but the same group. Very, very odd.


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## Golfnut1957 (Dec 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			The big factor here is whether the club is increasing to the full need* or simply reducing the impact with a partial increase which effectively will eat into its reserves.*

If it’s the later then fees would need to stay higher despite reductions simply to recoup the dent in the bank account.
		
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This is what our club is doing. The subs aren't due until March, we'll receive the renewal in February, however I spoke with one of the directors two weeks ago and mentioned the potential increase, he spoke of money put aside for other major improvements which will now be used to offset the inflation increases.
I have no idea what to expect.


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