# Are you proud?



## Crazyface (Feb 17, 2015)

To be a united fan this morning and to have that cheating, lazy overpaid person on your team? Well are you? Can you defend him? No? I should hope not!!!!!!

How anyone can watch this type of football anymore is beyond me. It's about time the video replay was brought in to see these cheats in action. how good would it have been to see lazyitis sent off for his despicable dive!


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2015)

Crazyface said:



			To be a united fan this morning and to have that cheating, lazy overpaid person on your team? Well are you? Can you defend him? No? I should hope not!!!!!!

How anyone can watch this type of football anymore is beyond me. It's about time the video replay was brought in to see these cheats in action. how good would it have been to see lazyitis sent off for his despicable dive!
		
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Id imagine this'll be a shirt thread. Can't think of a team in the Orem that's not got a least one theatrical player in their squad!


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Give it a break pal. You could easily find examples of just about every top player of the last 10 years doing the same, and I'm struggling to think of a current player who would have done differently last night. 

It was a dive. But the sooner we accept this as part of the game, as it is in other cultures, the better it would be for everyone. There are loads of examples where 'conning' the referee is accepted by us (appealing for a corner when you know it came off you last), so whats the difference with diving?

Not that I at all agree with concept of diving or any form of cheating, in my view the game is rapidly descending into a farce. However, we're long past a point of trying to reverse the trend, so its either accept it and move on, or find start watching One Born Every Minute with the Mrs. Thank God I found golf a few months ago!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVb2gbMtN3I


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

oh goody another ABU surfaces


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm an Everton fan and I am ashamed that Ross Barkley seems to be a diver. Unfortunately the role models out there all do it and so he is copying them. Last nights dive was made worse by the fact that the England captain felt he needed to cheat to beat the mighty PNE. How his game has fallen backwards.


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

I'll give the rant an 8 out of 10 (and i like a good rant!) but, as was said by TheDiablo, this really is a horse having bolted scenario.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Give it a break pal. You could easily find examples of just about every top player of the last 10 years doing the same, and I'm struggling to think of a current player who would have done differently last night. 

It was a dive. But the sooner we accept this as part of the game, as it is in other cultures, the better it would be for everyone. There are loads of examples where 'conning' the referee is accepted by us (appealing for a corner when you know it came off you last), so whats the difference with diving?

Not that I at all agree with concept of diving or any form of cheating, in my view the game is rapidly descending into a farce. However, we're long past a point of trying to reverse the trend, so its either accept it and move on, or find start watching One Born Every Minute with the Mrs. Thank God I found golf a few months ago!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVb2gbMtN3I

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Sorry but "accept this as part of the game" ?!? 

No should never be accepted - it should be the total opposite - full condemnation - the managers should come out and critisize the players - retrospective bans 

The england manager defending Rooney was shocking - he should be condemning the player on national telly - that was spineless


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but "accept this as part of the game" ?!? 

No should never be accepted - it should be the total opposite - full condemnation - the managers should come out and critisize the players - retrospective bans 

The england manager defending Rooney was shocking - he should be condemning the player on national telly - that was spineless
		
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Apology accepted.

That should all have happened 10 years ago. But didn't. Like I said, we're now past the point of even trying to reverse the trend. What annoys me is that every time a top player dives, it becomes such a story that it's all we hear for days. Rooney, Suarez, Bale, Gerrard etc etc. Everyone does it. Everyone will continue to do it. We'll still be talking about it in 10 years unless we move on!


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but "accept this as part of the game" ?!? 

No should never be accepted - it should be the total opposite - full condemnation - the managers should come out and critisize the players - retrospective bans 

The england manager defending Rooney was shocking - he should be condemning the player on national telly - that was spineless
		
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Let's not use this as another example to berate hodgson. 

Thisbseason there have been countless players from many clubs dive. I've not heard any of said clubs supporters condemn them in the way people want Rooney to be treated. At best fans say "it was a dive, all players do it". Players try to justify their own was condem others.


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## G.U.R (Feb 17, 2015)

I think you'll find retrospective bans are only applicable to Chelsea players.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 17, 2015)

G.U.R said:



			I think you'll find retrospective bans are only applicable to Chelsea players.
		
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Seems perfectly reasonable to me ...


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## GB72 (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Give it a break pal. You could easily find examples of just about every top player of the last 10 years doing the same, and I'm struggling to think of a current player who would have done differently last night. 

It was a dive. But the sooner we accept this as part of the game, as it is in other cultures, the better it would be for everyone. There are loads of examples where 'conning' the referee is accepted by us (appealing for a corner when you know it came off you last), so whats the difference with diving?

Not that I at all agree with concept of diving or any form of cheating, in my view the game is rapidly descending into a farce. However, we're long past a point of trying to reverse the trend, so its either accept it and move on, or find start watching One Born Every Minute with the Mrs. Thank God I found golf a few months ago!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVb2gbMtN3I

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I think this is a fair point and a very sensible one. However much people hate diving it is now part of the game. There really is no commitment at club or governing body level to stop it and so it will continue. Hell, they even call the offence 'simulation' rather than cheating. Give it a few years and people will eventually be complementing players on their ability to earn a penalty (and nothing winds me up more than commentators using the phrase that a player 'earned a penalty') and their dives will be lauded on match of the day. The horse has well and truely bolted on this one and it may as well be accepted as a part of the game as much as being able to pass well or take a decent free kick.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Apology accepted.

That should all have happened 10 years ago. But didn't. Like I said, we're now past the point of even trying to reverse the trend. What annoys me is that every time a top player dives, it becomes such a story that it's all we hear for days. Rooney, Suarez, Bale, Gerrard etc etc. Everyone does it. Everyone will continue to do it. We'll still be talking about it in 10 years unless we move on!
		
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Yes it should have happened ten years ago but accepting it's part of the game isn't the way to go - that excuses them and gives them license to dive


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Let's not use this as another example to berate hodgson. 

Thisbseason there have been countless players from many clubs dive. I've not heard any of said clubs supporters condemn them in the way people want Rooney to be treated. At best fans say "it was a dive, all players do it". Players try to justify their own was condem others.
		
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It was a perfect example of the incompetence of him - thankfully Kilbane was able to tell him exactly what he should have been saying 

Nothing would help the issue more than the national manager condeming the action on live telly


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a perfect example of the incompetence of him - thankfully Kilbane was able to tell him exactly what he should have been saying 

Nothing would help the issue more than the national manager condeming the action on live telly
		
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Am i the only one who thinks that, as current England manager, Woy shouldnt be indulging in such punditry issues as it leaves him in awkward situations such as these? Not quite a conflict of interest, but certainly an avoidable scenario.


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## Paul_Stewart (Feb 17, 2015)

So let's have instant replay during all games and watch them all finish about 30 minutes later than they do now which will bugger up the BBC's videprinter.

Or more realistically, video analysis by the FA/Premier League after each round of matches and bans imposed for obvious cheating.   Start at one game, then three, five and so on.  The message will soon get through.


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

G.U.R said:



			I think you'll find retrospective bans are only applicable to Chelsea players.
		
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Next they'll be a conspiracy.......


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a perfect example of the incompetence of him - thankfully Kilbane was able to tell him exactly what he should have been saying 

Nothing would help the issue more than the national manager condeming the action on live telly
		
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so a manager defendig his star is incompetence? Guess there's are a lot of incompetent managers plying their trade in the Prem. 

as to it helping. The clubs and the international team have no interest in helping one another. If Hodgson said he wouldn't call up any player caught diving. Do you believe clubs would tell their players to stop diving? They actively encourage it!


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## Kellfire (Feb 17, 2015)

Two different issues here...

1. Was it a penalty? Yes. Stone wall. No doubt whatsoever. Keeper completely misses the ball. He doesn't have to make any contact with Rooney for it to be a penalty. 

2. Was it a dive? Yea, maybe. I thought dive on first viewing, and no penalty, but the reply confirmed penalty was the right decision. He still made a lot of it but until you can read minds, only he will know for sure just how much he embellished it.


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 17, 2015)

We are good on rules on this forum so let's have a look at the actual rule here.........

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be
careless, *reckless or using excessive force*:
â€¢ kicks or attempts to kick an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ trips or attempts to trip an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ jumps at an opponent
â€¢ charges an opponent 
â€¢ strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
â€¢ pushes an opponent     (note - pushing is therefore allowed but mustn't be "excessive" etc)
â€¢ tackles an opponent    (note this means even if you "get the ball" it's still a foul if the force is excessive etc - another pundits favourite saying which is wrong.)

Was the goalkeepers challenge reckless or using excessive force? Well it's hard to imagine more force than 13st or more of keeper sliding out of control straight across the path of the forward, so yes, I'd say it was excessive force and probably reckless.

So, no doubt for me, it was  a penalty under the rules of the game. What Rooney did/didn't do is actually irrelevant. He wasn't conning the referee, he was simply making sure the referee noticed the foul which is a different thing entirely. The problem, if there is one is that had he stayed on his feet (the chance would have likely come to nothing) I doubt the ref would have given it. Rooney would effectively been penalised for getting out of the way of a reckless (and let's not forget dangerous if he hadn't been able to get out of the way) challenge.


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## G.U.R (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			Next they'll be a conspiracy....... 

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They're out to get us, Jose told me


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## guest100718 (Feb 17, 2015)

footballers dive? Surely not..!


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

G.U.R said:



			They're out to get us, Jose told me 

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No wonder he tried so hard to sign Rooney with all the hate he'd fit in well with you!


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## G.U.R (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			No wonder he tried so hard to sign Rooney with all the hate he'd fit in well with you! 

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JT didn't fancy his missus so it would never have worked


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a perfect example of the incompetence of him - thankfully Kilbane was able to tell him exactly what he should have been saying 

Nothing would help the issue more than the national manager condeming the action on live telly
		
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Were Rodgers and Dalglish incompetent when they defended Suarez?

Of course they weren't, what they may have said in private is another matter, but any manager who publicly  criticised one of his players would, himself, be slaughtered in the press.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 17, 2015)

Il be honest here and most of the regular contributors know i will be honest re the footy , i dont really care whether Utd win the Cup or go out in next round or what ever , 
I Thought i was losing the plot last night TBH and i now realise i no longer understand Football , hands up , there ive said it , and il take last night as an example .. 


I played competitive soccer at senior level (not always good standard) from the time i was 15 and heres my take on it .. 

If im standing in an offside position in the middle of the box and side step out of the way of the ball of course im interfering with play im in the keepers Vision.. IM OFFSIDE
If i push a player out of the way before i head the ball its a free Kick
If I DIVE im cheating , watch it again he kicks his right foot into the ground to simulate being fouled , im not anti rooney or anti utd , guys he dived he cheated ,


EDIT and diving cheats is something we all have at our clubs esp in the higher divisions & they are that good at it its hard for the referees to spot it so video evidence is the way forward , heavily punish the clubs first a fine (i know) but then points deductions .. 
The game i grew up playing is destroyed by cheats ,


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

I agree 100% that it was a penalty. Rooney still 'dived' though. He's not the first England captain to dive, and almost certainly wont be the last - I'm saying I'm past the point where I care about the dive.

What amazes me is the 'stay on your feet at all costs' attitude of some fans. Would the game be a better spectacle if Ronaldo or Messi broke a leg and were out for a whole season, as rather than avoid a tackle and go to ground they allowed a reckless challenge to make contact for a penalty? Yes, I've seen videos of George Best bouncing off defenders, carrying on and scoring great goals. But football has moved on since then, the players are fitter and stronger, hence the challenges coming in with more force. 

I'd much rather see top players jumping out the way of a reckless challenge (which, as already pointed out above, is still a foul) and looking for a penalty then not avoiding it and potentially suffering injury. And before people shout "_why can't they avoid contact, stay on their feet and play on?" _have a think about that situation last night. The GK committed a foul - period. Had Rooney have hurdled the challenge, Dowd probably would have awarded a goal kick. Until referees award fouls based on the actions of the defender and not the reactions of the attacker - to be doing his job correctly, the attacker has to go down!


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			We are good on rules on this forum so let's have a look at the actual rule here.........

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be
careless, *reckless or using excessive force*:
â€¢ kicks or attempts to kick an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ trips or attempts to trip an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ jumps at an opponent
â€¢ charges an opponent 
â€¢ strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
â€¢ pushes an opponent     (note - pushing is therefore allowed but mustn't be "excessive" etc)
â€¢ tackles an opponent    (note this means even if you "get the ball" it's still a foul if the force is excessive etc - another pundits favourite saying which is wrong.)

Was the goalkeepers challenge reckless or using excessive force? Well it's hard to imagine more force than 13st or more of keeper sliding out of control straight across the path of the forward, so yes, I'd say it was excessive force and probably reckless.

So, no doubt for me, it was  a penalty under the rules of the game. What Rooney did/didn't do is actually irrelevant. He wasn't conning the referee, he was simply making sure the referee noticed the foul which is a different thing entirely. The problem, if there is one is that had he stayed on his feet (the chance would have likely come to nothing) I doubt the ref would have given it. Rooney would effectively been penalised for getting out of the way of a reckless (and let's not forget dangerous if he hadn't been able to get out of the way) challenge.
		
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So would you have applied the same 'reckless' logic if Rooney had been running directly at goal and the keeper had dived and taken the ball from Rooney's feet?! I think almost every pundit would have called that 'brave', as it's exactly what is expected of a keeper! I haven't met a keeper yet who hasn't got a screw loose, and I've (somewhat surprisingly) known quite a few!


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## Fyldewhite (Feb 17, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So would you have applied the same 'reckless' logic if Rooney had been running directly at goal and the keeper had dived and taken the ball from Rooney's feet?! I think almost every pundit would have called that 'brave', as it's exactly what is expected of a keeper! I haven't met a keeper yet who hasn't got a screw loose, and I've (somewhat surprisingly) known quite a few!
		
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Good point, especially about the average goalkeepers mental state!  I think it only becomes reckless when you miss the ball by miles, don't pull out, or actually do some damage etc. It's such a dodgy area and all subjective at the end of the day as it's the ref's decision as to what is or isn't reckless/excessive. Notwithstanding what the rules say it's clear that ref's are much more likely to rule in the tacklers favour and let the "hard challenge" go if they do win the ball and it's well timed etc. If they are nowhere near then there's little choice. Loved Kevin Davies getting the sympathy vote btw......class....."look Kev, you're knackered, you are getting subbed soon so I'll let you off you lucky boy".


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Good point, especially about the average goalkeepers mental state!  I think it only becomes reckless when you miss the ball by miles, don't pull out, or actually do some damage etc. It's such a dodgy area and all subjective at the end of the day as it's the ref's decision as to what is or isn't reckless/excessive. Notwithstanding what the rules say it's clear that ref's are much more likely to rule in the tacklers favour and let the "hard challenge" go if they do win the ball and it's well timed etc. If they are nowhere near then there's little choice.* Loved Kevin Davies getting the sympathy vote btw......class....."look Kev, you're knackered, you are getting subbed soon so I'll let you off you lucky boy*".
		
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:clap:


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## Dando (Feb 17, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Good point, especially about the average goalkeepers mental state!  I think it only becomes reckless when you miss the ball by miles, don't pull out, or actually do some damage etc. It's such a dodgy area and all subjective at the end of the day as it's the ref's decision as to what is or isn't reckless/excessive. Notwithstanding what the rules say it's clear that ref's are much more likely to rule in the tacklers favour and let the "hard challenge" go if they do win the ball and it's well timed etc. If they are nowhere near then there's little choice. Loved Kevin Davies getting the sympathy vote btw......class....."look Kev, you're knackered, you are getting subbed soon so I'll let you off you lucky boy".
		
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hey, as a former keeper im not happy you going on about our mental state!!!! i'll have you know I can count to potato!

in all seriousness the keeper was fully entitled to go for the ball yet somehow the fridge towing a bus that is Rooney managed to get there first and toe poke it away then decided to cheat by simulating that he had been fouled. 

all respect to Kilbane after for saying what he did and I cant believe that bellend Neville kept a straight face when he said there was no contact but it was a penalty!


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2015)

Dando said:



			hey, as a former keeper im not happy you going on about our mental state!!!! i'll have you know I can count to potato!
		
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You (well, the rest of us) do have wonder what would make someone want to throw themself head first at the feet of a forward risking getting a serious injury! And you are definitely likely to end up with elbow and knee problems - and probably fingers and hand ones too with the inevitable breaks!



Dando said:



			...I cant believe that bellend Neville kept a straight face when he said there was no contact but it was a penalty!
		
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That's was just a ridiculous statement for Neville to make!


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2015)

It was reckless of the keeper to come flying out and try and win the ball.  The tackle itself was NOT reckless.  He missed the ball by a fraction and also missed the player.   

It does not give the forward the right to simulate that there was contact. 

If a winger goes past me and I make a sliding tackle, miss the ball and the man the ref doesn't blow up fir a foul.

How is this any different?


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			It was reckless of the keeper to come flying out and try and win the ball.  The tackle itself was NOT reckless.  He missed the ball by a fraction and also missed the player.   

It does not give the forward the right to simulate that there was contact. 

If a winger goes past me and I make a sliding tackle, miss the ball and the man the ref doesn't blow up fir a foul.

How is this any different?
		
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Firstly, the keeper missed it by a rather large fraction. Also, Rooney decided to avoid contact - the keeper made no attempt whatsoever to withdraw his tackle when it became clear he couldn't reach the ball first. At the very least it was 'careless' which is a foul. In my opinion it was 'reckless', which is a foul or yellow card.

If you make a sliding tackle and miss the ball and man, the winger probably has more incentive to stay on his feet and attack the space which has a greater chance of resulting in a chance than from a wide free kick with all men back. If your action impedes his run/balance then it would be a free kick/advantage *regardless *of whether you touched him or note. When in the box, the advantage to the attacker is to go down and take the penalty.


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2015)

He mistimed and coming at pace cannot really stop due to momentum.   Rooney ' s run was not impeded.   He believed it was going to be then as he passed him dug his toes into the ground simulating the contact.    

If a winger goes past me sliding in and is immediately tackled by one of my team mates the ref does not blow and pull the play back.   There is no foul.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 17, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			We are good on rules on this forum so let's have a look at the actual rule here.........

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be
careless, *reckless or using excessive force*:
â€¢ kicks or attempts to kick an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ trips or attempts to trip an opponent     ( so no actual contact required for it to be a foul)
â€¢ jumps at an opponent
â€¢ charges an opponent 
â€¢ strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
â€¢ pushes an opponent     (note - pushing is therefore allowed but mustn't be "excessive" etc)
â€¢ tackles an opponent    (note this means even if you "get the ball" it's still a foul if the force is excessive etc - another pundits favourite saying which is wrong.)

Was the goalkeepers challenge reckless or using excessive force? Well it's hard to imagine more force than 13st or more of keeper sliding out of control straight across the path of the forward, so yes, I'd say it was excessive force and probably reckless.

So, no doubt for me, it was  a penalty under the rules of the game. What Rooney did/didn't do is actually irrelevant. He wasn't conning the referee, he was simply making sure the referee noticed the foul which is a different thing entirely. The problem, if there is one is that had he stayed on his feet (the chance would have likely come to nothing) I doubt the ref would have given it. Rooney would effectively been penalised for getting out of the way of a reckless (and let's not forget dangerous if he hadn't been able to get out of the way) challenge.
		
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No problem with anything you've put, except Rooney threw himself, from what you've put it was a penalty even if he stayed on his feet or at least try!!


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## evahakool (Feb 17, 2015)

U



Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but "accept this as part of the game" ?!? 

No should never be accepted - it should be the total opposite - full condemnation - the managers should come out and critisize the players - retrospective bans 

The england manager defending Rooney was shocking - he should be condemning the player on national telly - that was spineless
		
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Agree with most of that but instead of manages coming out critisizing they should stop there players cheating.
Of course this will never happen now.
The op must now all teams do this so no need to single out just one


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2015)

He missed ball, man everything.   Rooney didn't have to move out of his way at all.    Had he been forced to hurdle him them then yes it would be a foul but he was past him with no contact. 

It only took a fraction if a second to miss everything but he did.  Both players moving a pace.


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## Dando (Feb 17, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			You (well, the rest of us) do have wonder what would make someone want to throw themself head first at the feet of a forward risking getting a serious injury! And you are definitely likely to end up with elbow and knee problems - and probably fingers and hand ones too with the inevitable breaks!



That's was just a ridiculous statement for Neville to make!
		
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I played in goal all my life and really enjoyed it (they always put the fat kid in goal). as for injuries, my elbows are fine buy my knee are fcucked (4 ops) and I had to give up the gloves last season due to a shoulder injury that I am still having physio on (it doesn't affect my golf that much thank dog). Plus I have some stud marks in the back of my head! I have not broken and fingers playing football - they got broken playing cricket!


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			He mistimed and coming at pace cannot really stop due to momentum.   Rooney ' s run was not impeded.   He believed it was going to be then as he passed him dug his toes into the ground simulating the contact. 

If a winger goes past me sliding in and is immediately tackled by one of my team mates the ref does not blow and pull the play back.   There is no foul.
		
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How was Rooney's run not impeded? He either had to jump over an obstacle (the goalkeeper) or get hit by him. I'm really struggling to see how he hasn't been impeded.

If your action diverts the winger away from his intended path or alters his balance that directly results in him being tackled, then yes you have 'fouled him' if your action was careless or reckless. The fact that referee may not give it is more a reflection on his inability to referee correctly according to the laws of the game.


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## Dando (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Firstly, the keeper missed it by a rather large fraction. Also, Rooney decided to avoid contact - the keeper made no attempt whatsoever to withdraw his tackle when it became clear he couldn't reach the ball first. At the very least it was 'careless' which is a foul. In my opinion it was 'reckless', which is a foul or yellow card.

If you make a sliding tackle and miss the ball and man, the winger probably has more incentive to stay on his feet and attack the space which has a greater chance of resulting in a chance than from a wide free kick with all men back. If your action impedes his run/balance then it would be a free kick/advantage *regardless *of whether you touched him or note. When in the box, the advantage to the attacker is to go down and take the penalty.
		
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as a keeper who has played to a decent standard it's pretty hard to pull out of a sliding stop once you are committed - its part of our game and one thing we have that can help us out when an attacker is advancing into the box! Rooney had the opportunity to jump the slide and remain on his feet - he chose not too!


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Apology accepted.

That should all have happened 10 years ago. But didn't. Like I said, we're now past the point of even trying to reverse the trend. What annoys me is that every time a top player dives, it becomes such a story that it's all we hear for days. Rooney, Suarez, Bale, Gerrard etc etc. Everyone does it. Everyone will continue to do it. We'll still be talking about it in 10 years unless we move on!
		
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Are we talking about "top players" here, or Rooney? Those 3 words don't go together that's for sure.


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## Dando (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			How was Rooney's run not impeded? He either had to jump over an obstacle (the goalkeeper) or get hit by him. I'm really struggling to see how he hasn't been impeded.

so now every time someone has to jump over a tackle there should be a free kick or penalty?

If your action diverts the winger away from his intended path or alters his balance that directly results in him being tackled, then yes you have 'fouled him' if your action was careless or reckless. The fact that referee may not give it is more a reflection on his inability to referee correctly according to the laws of the game.
		
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shrek had the choice to stay on his feet after he cleared the keeper - I bet he would have done had it been outside the box!!!!


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## garyinderry (Feb 17, 2015)

Neither happened last night. Rooney didn't jump him or get touched.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 17, 2015)

I honestly don't know anymore what is & isn't a penalty. 
Some good points being made on here from both sides. 
Rooney could have certainly stayed on his feet without getting injured IMO,but the keeper was a bit reckless.


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			I honestly don't know anymore what is & isn't a penalty. 
Some good points being made on here from both sides. 
Rooney could have certainly stayed on his feet without getting injured IMO,but the keeper was a bit reckless.
		
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If its Rooney or a Man Utd player, its a penalty. 

If it was a Preston player then its not a penalty. (Substitute clubs and players as applicable)


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 17, 2015)

Tongo said:



			If its Rooney or a Man Utd player, its a penalty. 

If it was a Preston player then its not a penalty. (Substitute clubs and players as applicable)
		
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I think more as been made of this because it's Rooney tbh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

Is rooney still bejng defended ?

The keeper attempted to get the ball - Rooney jumped over the tackle - wasn't touched but still decided to fall over 

Dive - shouldn't have been a penalty and would have booked him for trying to con the ref into giving a penalty


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## c1973 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but "accept this as part of the game" ?!? 

No should never be accepted - it should be the total opposite - full condemnation - the managers should come out and critisize the players - retrospective bans 

*The england manager defending Rooney was shocking - he should be condemning the player on national telly - that was spineless*

Click to expand...

*
*

That's what I felt was the worst part of it.

I accept every team has players that do it, my team included. I accept that it happens a lot in footie now, but when commentators and (in this instance) the players international manager try to brush it off and make excuses it really sticks in the throat. 
They don't lose or gain anything by condemning it yet they still spout the usual crap about 'he's entitled to go down there' etc etc  it puts you off watching tbh.


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			- Rooney jumped over the tackle - wasn't touched but still decided t
		
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This is the problem for me,sometimes you could argue that a player goes down to avoid injury.
In this case Rooney could have easily stayed on his feet. 

Be honest Phil, if it was Sterling or Gerrard you'd still be defending them next wk :thup:


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Dando said:



			as a keeper who has played to a decent standard it's pretty hard to pull out of a sliding stop once you are committed - its part of our game and one thing we have that can help us out when an attacker is advancing into the box! Rooney had the opportunity to jump the slide and remain on his feet - he chose not too!
		
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I agree it is hard to pull out of a challenge once committed - that doesn't make it any less of a foul though! Rooney could very easily have stayed on his feet - it still would have been a foul under the laws of the game but the referee would be highly unlikely to have given it. As I've said before, IMHO - clear pen, but also a dive! Who'd be a referee?! No wonder their standard is shocking...


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Are we talking about "top players" here, or Rooney? Those 3 words don't go together that's for sure.
		
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Quite harsh on the lad - he will most probably end his career as both United and England's top scorer of all time. I agree he's no world beater, and its embarrassing when the English media hype him up to be, but I'd still put him in the 'top player' bracket based on both individual and team success over a prolonged period of time. 

But if you insist, let's agree on 'high profile'


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## 19thagain (Feb 17, 2015)

What a lopsided presentation - if a punch was thrown, no foul as Rooney pulled his face out of the way to defend his good looks.

However it is only his legs that are at risk, you know the ones that make him millions, but they don't matter he should have let the keeper break them and then ..... well there would still be a question, on here, as to wither it was a penalty or is that toad faking his double fracture and ligment breaks.

For Heavens sake ... grow up and take off that green glasses as they are damaging your brain.


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

19thagain said:



			What a lopsided presentation - if a punch was thrown, no foul as Rooney pulled his face out of the way to defend his good looks.

However it is only his legs that are at risk, you know the ones that make him millions, but they don't matter he should have let the keeper break them and then ..... well there would still be a question, on here, as to wither it was a penalty or is that toad faking his double fracture and ligment breaks.

For Heavens sake ... grow up and take off that green glasses as they are damaging your brain.
		
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Exactly.

I often think that the majority of British football fans would prefer to see people getting injured rather than diving!


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 17, 2015)

I suspect diving/feigning injury will always be here, however at least even Italian university teams practice "diving" at the end of every training session so at least it looks real. British players go down minutes after the event and just look clumsy and stupid.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes he jumped over a tackle - so why did he dive ? Why exactly did Rooney fall to the floor like he had been shot ? 

Does every time a player evade a tackle become a foul now ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Exactly.

I often think that the majority of British football fans would prefer to see people getting injured rather than diving!
		
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Not exactly! No one wants to see anyone injured but your saying he only had 2 choices, get injured or dive!
What about jump (as he did) and land on 2 feet or at least try, he threw himself forward and dived, saved himself an injury and made it look like there was contact.
He did what 99% percent of players would do, still doesn't make it right.


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## Birchy (Feb 17, 2015)

Being honest and judging the situation on merit not taking into account the player or the team it was a penalty imo.

The rules back that up. The keeper diving in forces Rooney to take evasive action or alter his run which you can only do legally by taking the ball.


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## jp5 (Feb 17, 2015)

Dive, pure and simple. Until the authorities punish these 'role models' nothing will change.


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes he jumped over a tackle - so why did he dive ? Why exactly did Rooney fall to the floor like he had been shot ? 

Does every time a player evade a tackle become a foul now ?
		
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To convince the referee to award the penalty. It's a shame the game has reached this stage, but it has. The media should now accept it - stop making it back page news. 

FWIW he also dived against Arsenal to win the penalty that ended their undefeated run all those years ago - that shouldn't have been a penalty as the tackle was withdrawn before Rooney reached the defender, whereas last nights was not. Gerrard has also dived throughout his career, and on most occasions they have been just that, dives - but another exact example of what happened last night was against Sheffield United on the opening game of the season a few years back - there was absolutely no contact from the defender but the defenders actions meant he couldnt get his shot away - referee was correct to award the penalty. 

And on the second line - No. It's been a foul for a while now. Whether you believe that law is good for football is neither here nor there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

So you think it should be acceptable for a player to dive to ensure the ref awards a penalty - sad state of the game now


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Not exactly! No one wants to see anyone injured but your saying he only had 2 choices, get injured or dive!
What about jump (as he did) and land on 2 feet or at least try, he threw himself forward and dived, saved himself an injury and made it look like there was contact.
He did what 99% percent of players would do, still doesn't make it right.
		
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I actually agree with what you are saying. In fact, his easiest option of the 3 would be to jump and stay on his feet. But why would he if the opposition has committed an offence? Is it your responsibility to get out of the way of someone trying to kick you in the street? Or is the offender at fault for breaking a law?


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## bladeplayer (Feb 17, 2015)

So then  just curious if he obstructed rooney & not realy fouled him , why wasnt it an indirect free kick ? or has that changed also ?


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you think it should be acceptable for a player to dive to ensure the ref awards a penalty - sad state of the game now

Click to expand...

Completely agree Phil, I really do. My first point is that we're long past the point to reverse this trend, so why is their such uproar when a high profile player acts this way? It happens week in week out and has done for years here, decades abroad. I'd place a large wager that every manager actively encourages it, even the Big Sams and Pulis' of the world, regardless of what they say in public.


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## TheDiablo (Feb 17, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			So then  just curious if he obstructed rooney & not realy fouled him , why wasnt it an indirect free kick ? or has that changed also ?
		
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Obstruction is long gone! Wasn't a law as far back as when I qualified as a referee in 2004ish!


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## bladeplayer (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



To convince the referee to award the penalty. It's a shame the game has reached this stage, but it has. The media should now accept it - stop making it back page news. 

FWIW he also dived against Arsenal to win the penalty that ended their undefeated run all those years ago - that shouldn't have been a penalty as the tackle was withdrawn before Rooney reached the defender, whereas last nights was not. Gerrard has also dived throughout his career, and on most occasions they have been just that, dives - but another exact example of what happened last night was against Sheffield United on the opening game of the season a few years back - there was absolutely no contact from the defender but the defenders actions meant he couldnt get his shot away - referee was correct to award the penalty. 

And on the second line - No. It's been a foul for a while now. Whether you believe that law is good for football is neither here nor there.
		
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Wow its such a clearcut decision & as some say its clearly in the rules , so why is it that you need to convince the ref?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

I don't think it should ever be accepted 

More condemnation is required 

Action after towards the offenders 

Retrospective bans for diving


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## bladeplayer (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			Obstruction is long gone! Wasn't a law as far back as when I qualified as a referee in 2004ish!
		
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ok Ta ,genuinely didnt know that bit , so what are indirect free kicks awarded for ?


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## blackpuddinmonster (Feb 17, 2015)

This thread must be something akin to being stuck on the m25 with no way off.
Talk about going round in circles.. 

Glad i support the shakers, nothing like this ever happens in the lower divisions, don't u know..

Anyway imho i think Mr Birchy sums it up pretty well...:thup:


On another note:-
*A troll*
:- Someone who makes a deliberatly provocative post, with the sole aim of upsetting someone, or eliciting an angry response..

2 posts, 2 days, same author, and no follow up.
Just saying.... :thup:


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

blackpuddinmonster said:



*This thread must be something akin to being stuck on the m25 with no way off.*
Talk about going round in circles.. 

Click to expand...


Most Football threads are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 17, 2015)

TheDiablo said:



			I actually agree with what you are saying. In fact, his easiest option of the 3 would be to jump and stay on his feet. But why would he if the opposition has committed an offence?
		
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Because if you're correct and it was a penalty anyway, the only way to ensure the Ref didn't get it wrong was to emphasize the "fall" and dive&#128515;


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## Wayman (Feb 17, 2015)

Personally this is why I don't take as much notice at football these days 

Diving and silly money involved 

Don't get me wrong I'll go to a match or watch one


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2015)

Quite an amusing thread really...

So, to all the disgusted forumers.... What exactly are you going to do about it? 

You must appreciate that the authorities don't have the stomach to address it properly.. So what exactly are you going to do to show your disgust at the richest league in the World, in the richest Sport in the World?


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Dive, pure and simple. Until the authorities punish these 'role models' nothing will change.
		
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Play won't happen though. Wasnt it arsenal who had a player sent off for diving, but intent can't be proven so was overturned.


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## blackpuddinmonster (Feb 17, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Most Football threads are.
		
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No one can argue with that..


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

blackpuddinmonster said:



			No one can argue with that..
		
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Someone will


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## bluewolf (Feb 17, 2015)

blackpuddinmonster said:



			No one can argue with that..
		
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Have you learned nothing since you returned?


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## blackpuddinmonster (Feb 17, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Quite an amusing thread really...

So, to all the disgusted forumers.... What exactly are you going to do about it? 

You must appreciate that the authorities don't have the stomach to address it properly.. So what exactly are you going to do to show your disgust at the richest league in the World, in the richest Sport in the World? 

Click to expand...

Dear Jim....... *&#8203;Noooo..........*


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## blackpuddinmonster (Feb 17, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Have you learned nothing since you returned? 

Click to expand...

 :whoo:


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## blackpuddinmonster (Feb 17, 2015)

Tongo said:



			Someone will 

Click to expand...

:rofl:


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2015)

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...t-an-audition-for-splash/page3&highlight=Dive

it would appear that making the most of a tackle (diving) is ok if a player, plays for your team.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 17, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...t-an-audition-for-splash/page3&highlight=Dive

it would appear that making the most of a tackle (diving) is ok if a player, plays for your team.
		
Click to expand...

&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think it should ever be accepted 

More condemnation is required 

Action after towards the offenders 

Retrospective bans for diving
		
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They tried that with an arsenal player an were taken to cleaners by lawyers IIRC ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			They tried that with an arsenal player an were taken to cleaners by lawyers IIRC ?
		
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Yeah Eduardo 

They couldn't "prove" his intent to dive to gain a penalty 

He was banned for three games and they appealed


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

blackpuddinmonster said:



			This thread must be something akin to being stuck on the m25 with no way off.
Talk about going round in circles.. 

Glad i support the shakers, nothing like this ever happens in the lower divisions, don't u know..

Anyway imho i think Mr Birchy sums it up pretty well...:thup:


On another note:-
*A troll*
:- Someone who makes a deliberatly provocative post, with the sole aim of upsetting someone, or eliciting an angry response..

2 posts, 2 days, same author, and no follow up.
Just saying.... :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Think I get what your trying to say  


:rofl:


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah Eduardo 

They couldn't "prove" his intent to dive to gain a penalty 

He was banned for three games and they appealed
		
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So how do you inflict retrospective action then when the clubs just scream not us and get the lawyers on the case?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			So how do you inflict retrospective action then when the clubs just scream not us and get the lawyers on the case?
		
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Million dollar question
Get their own lawyers in and make sure the charge is water tight possibly


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## Pin-seeker (Feb 17, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...t-an-audition-for-splash/page3&highlight=Dive

it would appear that making the most of a tackle (diving) is ok if a player, plays for your team.
		
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

The same as trying to prove intent to injure in some case we all know it's happened but unless you get a full confession the charge isn't going to stick.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			The same as trying to prove intent to injure in some case we all know it's happened but unless you get a full confession the charge isn't going to stick.
		
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Maybe file it under "unsportsmanlike conduct" ?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 17, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Quite an amusing thread really...

So, to all the disgusted forumers.... What exactly are you going to do about it? 

You must appreciate that the authorities don't have the stomach to address it properly.. So what exactly are you going to do to show your disgust at the richest league in the World, in the richest Sport in the World? 

Click to expand...

Vote with your wallet?  Being given serious consideration at the moment, especially with the way the fixtures will be dragged about after the new deal on top of everything else.  Trouble is we know it won't make any difference to top clubs as there will a queue willing to take your place.  It'll just be like wetting yourself in a dark suitâ€¦â€¦.


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe file it under "unsportsmanlike conduct" ?
		
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Bit like abusing the referee and calling him and the names under the sun.... Oh that's covered by the rules now they just ignore it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			Bit like abusing the referee and calling him and the names under the sun.... Oh that's covered by the rules now they just ignore it!
		
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We don't paint a good picture of football do we 

Quite sad really when we think about how the game has gone 

Trying to think if it was ever like this during the 80's ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 17, 2015)

Dive pure and simple. However what difference will fans indignation make? Zip, nada nothing. Players will do whatever it takes even if it means stepping outside the rules to get an advantage as the stakes are so high. Until the authorities act (fat chance with the FA, UEFA and FIFA) nothing will change and referees "may" take a bold line every now and then and caution a player but if that was a second yellow and therefore a red, what chance a club/player will appeal and it'll be overturned and the ref castigated for being rash


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Don't recall it being so bad but it's a general society thing, general lack of respect for others. It's not just football though cricketers always used to walk not anymore.

Just imagine furore if Rooney had got up and waved a finger saying ala Fowler. 

Reckon it Would of been far worse than going down as he did.


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Dive pure and simple. However what difference will fans indignation make? Zip, nada nothing. Players will do whatever it takes even if it means stepping outside the rules to get an advantage as the stakes are so high. Until the authorities act (fat chance with the FA, UEFA and FIFA) nothing will change and referees "may" take a bold line every now and then and caution a player but if that was a second yellow and therefore a red, what chance a club/player will appeal and it'll be overturned and the ref castigated for being rash
		
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You can't appeal a yellow wether it a 1st or 2nd one only a straight red.

UEFA did act as highlight above and the charge dropped on appeal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			Don't recall it being so bad but it's a general society thing, general lack of respect for others. It's not just football though cricketers always used to walk not anymore.

Just imagine furore if Rooney had got up and waved a finger saying ala Fowler. 

Reckon it Would of been far worse than going down as he did.
		
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Very true about cricket 

Players always looking to see a way to get away with getting out 

Thankfully the make up of the game allows for replays

If Rooney had waved the finger ala Fowler reckon the reaction would have been very positive


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very true about cricket 

Players always looking to see a way to get away with getting out 

Thankfully the make up of the game allows for replays

If Rooney had waved the finger ala Fowler reckon the reaction would have been very positive
		
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And cost him 2 weeks wages ......


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## Tongo (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			And cost him 2 weeks wages ......
		
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Which is a lot of money for Rooney! (600k i think!)


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			And cost him 2 weeks wages ......
		
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Really ? Why's that mate


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 17, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really ? Why's that mate
		
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I Reckon in today's world a manager would go ballastic! 
Laid back Louis may not but pretty sure plenty would.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			I Reckon in today's world a manager would go ballastic! 
Laid back Louis may not but pretty sure plenty would.
		
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Again that would be very sad to see if a player was fined for being honest 

But you're prob not far wrong


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## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 17, 2015)

Not sure if it has been mentioned but on Talk Sport yesterday afternoon Jason Cundy openly encouraged players to dive. Basically it is all part and parcel of the game and you should bend the rules to gain an advantage any way you can. Even Adrian Durham was gobsmacked!


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2015)

Birchy said:



			Being honest and judging the situation on merit not taking into account the player or the team it was a penalty imo.

The rules back that up. The keeper diving in forces Rooney to take evasive action or alter his run which you can only do legally by taking the ball.
		
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Rubbish - your just tring to suck up to Huds again.:blah:


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Quite an amusing thread really...

So, to all the disgusted forumers.... What exactly are you going to do about it? 

You must appreciate that the authorities don't have the stomach to address it properly.. So what exactly are you going to do to show your disgust at the richest league in the World, in the richest Sport in the World? 

Click to expand...

Write a letter, signed off - disgusted of golf forum.

From small acorns........


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## Andy808 (Feb 17, 2015)

Papas1982 said:



			Let's not use this as another example to berate hodgson. 

.
		
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Nah you're right as there are already about ten thousand examples already so another one would be just silly.


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## garyinderry (Feb 18, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31515155


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 18, 2015)

pbrown7582 said:



			Don't recall it being so bad but it's a general society thing, general lack of respect for others. It's not just football though cricketers always used to walk not anymore.

Just imagine furore if Rooney had got up and waved a finger saying ala Fowler. 

Reckon it Would of been far worse than going down as he did.
		
Click to expand...

As usual money has corrupted the sport.  The sums involved in staying in the Premiership are so astronomical now that players will be encouraged to do anything to ensure that happens.  Including going down to avoid a rash challenge in the box easily/drawing a foul, diving, call it what you want depending on if the player from your team has done it or the opposition. 

So it becomes second nature in the Premiership and will filter down from there.  Nothing you can do about it, well apart from not bother watching much football which is the route I have mostly taken.  I now get more pleasure from watching my nephews play at under 11s than I do a premiership game as it just seems more 'real' to me for want of a better word


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## pbrown7582 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			As usual money has corrupted the sport.  The sums involved in staying in the Premiership are so astronomical now that players will be encouraged to do anything to ensure that happens.  Including going down to avoid a rash challenge in the box easily/drawing a foul, diving, call it what you want depending on if the player from your team has done it or the opposition. 

So it becomes second nature in the Premiership and will filter down from there.  Nothing you can do about it, well apart from not bother watching much football which is the route I have mostly taken.  I now get more pleasure from watching my nephews play at under 11s than I do a premiership game as it just seems more 'real' to me for want of a better word
		
Click to expand...


but it filters down! my lad is 5 and goes to training on a Saturday morning and there are a couple who have already perfected the art of the  push in the back  shirt pull, and rolling around on the floor in agony!


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