# Iron lie angle at address.



## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

Simples, two part question for the forum buffs.

Assuming a person has been custom fit for their irons: 

a) Regardless of whether a player is fitted for upright or flat irons, when static at address, should the sole of the iron sit flush to the turf? Or should any part of the sole sit off from the turf?

I know the downswing will have a different effect on the toe position at impact, I'm more concerned with address.

And 

b) How often should you have the lie of forged irons checked?

Muchos Gracias in advance :thup:


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## DCB (Dec 9, 2013)

Gareth,

The toe should be slightly up  off the gound at a static address position. There used to be enough room to slip a coin (2pence piece ? ) under the to at static address position.

Checking will depend on use, hard mats or hard ground may well need checks carried out sooner rather than later.


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## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

DCB said:



			Gareth,

The toe should be slightly up  off the gound at a static address position. There used to be enough room to slip a coin (2pence piece ? ) under the to at static address position.

Checking will depend on use, hard mats or hard ground may well need checks carried out sooner rather than later.
		
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Thanks for that DCB :thup:

If you were to look down, from your address position would the club head _appear_ slightly toe up or with it only being fractionally toe up, as you say, would the club head appear flush to the ground?


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

DCB said:



			Gareth,

The toe should be slightly up  off the gound at a static address position. There used to be enough room to slip a coin (2pence piece ? ) under the to at static address position.

Checking will depend on use, hard mats or hard ground may well need checks carried out sooner rather than later.
		
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Pretty much what I'd heard too.

Stingy Scots though.  It was a 50p coin' 'darn sarf'!


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## fundy (Dec 9, 2013)

There is an argument that it can be what it wants at address, toe up or heel up or flush, its the angle at impact that is the important one and different people will start in slightly different positions to get to their optimal position at impact


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## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

fundy said:



			There is an argument that it can be what it wants at address, toe up or heel up or flush, its the angle at impact that is the important one and different people will start in slightly different positions to get to their optimal position at impact
		
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D'ya know! I never thought of that Steve


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## Imurg (Dec 9, 2013)

Forged clubs will definitely need to be checked more regularly than cast.
Let's face it Ping and Callaway cast clubs are made of the hardest substance known to the Universe and are virtually indestructible....


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

fundy said:



			There is an argument that it can be what it wants at address, toe up or heel up or flush, its the angle at impact that is the important one and different people will start in slightly different positions to get to their optimal position at impact
		
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That argument is a very unconvincing one though. The Toe-up makes it easier to swing so that the the (all-important) impact position is more likely to be correct - for several reasons. 

Why would you want to make it more difficult to hit the ball properly?


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## fundy (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That argument is a very unconvincing one though. The Toe-up makes it easier to swing so that the the (all-important) impact position is more likely to be correct - for several reasons. 

Why would you want to make it more difficult to hit the ball properly?
		
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Not saying it isn't, what Im saying is it wont be for everyone. Have been professionals on tour who have addressed the ball heel up as its what has worked for their swing. When you have a fitting, the angles are measured at impact not address for a reason!


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

fundy said:



			When you have a fitting, the angles are measured at impact not address for a reason!
		
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Er. Not always! Not in 'Static' fittings.

But a 'proper' one should be both; Static first followed by Dynamic.


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## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Er. Not always! Not in 'Static' fittings.

But a 'proper' one should be both; Static first followed by Dynamic.
		
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Isn't static fitting more to do with wrist to floor measurements etc?

I had this and a lie board check when I got fitted at the start of the year.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Isn't static fitting more to do with wrist to floor measurements etc?
		
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Yep. Pure measurement standing still - static.



Gareth said:



			I had this and a lie board check when I got fitted at the start of the year.
		
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Followed by the moving (dynamic) part to make sure it works!


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## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

Well, at least I know I had a decent fitting


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## SGC001 (Dec 9, 2013)

Just out of interest when someone's had both a static and a dynamic fit what results do they go with. The static, dynamic or a combination of both?


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

SGC001 said:



			Just out of interest when someone's had both a static and a dynamic fit what results do they go with. The static, dynamic or a combination of both?
		
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It really ends up with a combo of both, but the dynamic is the important one - as that's impact.

The initial static measurement determines the 'correct' shaft length and initial lie. Then, when a club of that spec is found/created, balls are hit off a lie board is to check that the scrape marks are in the right place - across the centre of the sole. No magic and nothing complicated about it!


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## SGC001 (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			It really ends up with a combo of both, but the dynamic is the important one - as that's impact.

The initial static measurement determines the 'correct' shaft length and initial lie. Then, when a club of that spec is found/created, balls are hit off a lie board is to check that the scrape marks are in the right place - across the centre of the sole. No magic and nothing complicated about it!
		
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So to try and transfer to numbers a static fit gets set at 'standard', you get a go on a lie board which says 2 degrees upright. Do you get fitted with a club standard (static) 1 degree upright between the two) or 2 degrees upright (dynamic).


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

SGC001 said:



			So to try and transfer to numbers a static fit gets set at 'standard', you get a go on a lie board which says 2 degrees upright. Do you get fitted with a club standard (static) 1 degree upright between the two) or 2 degrees upright (dynamic).
		
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All else being equal (nothing obvious in the swing that should change and affect the lie) the 2* upright - as that's the impact conditions, which is the important point.

In truth, I don't believe it's absolutely essential that they are absolutely spot on, as long as they are close all consistent - your body is surprisingly good at adjusting. 

And it does make a difference! When I got fitted for a Driver, Precision also checked  my MP30s against specs and asked me if I had trouble with a particular club. While they all varied from spec a little, the 6-iron, that I avoided because I couldn't hit it, was 5 iron loft, 3* different to all the others and 5* different from what I needed!. After resetting and a Dynamic fit, I was amazed how much cleaner I hit all the irons on the course! That variation is fairly typical of all OEMs btw, not just Mizuno.


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## SGC001 (Dec 9, 2013)

So are you and Fundy saying the same thing then? 

That you go with the dynamic, but a static fit can be performed.

I've heard something similar as that a long time ago, in that people could fit a set based on a favourite club, which may often differ in it's characteristics from others in a set.


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## garyinderry (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That argument is a very unconvincing one though. The Toe-up makes it easier to swing so that the the (all-important) impact position is more likely to be correct - for several reasons.
		
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what are these reasons?


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## One Planer (Dec 9, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			what are these reasons?
		
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One I could think of off the top of my head would be why rest the iron on its toe at address. Surely your wrists wouldn't  be in a good position?


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## garyinderry (Dec 9, 2013)

Gareth said:



			One I could think of off the top of my head would be why rest the iron on its toe at address. Surely your wrists wouldn't  be in a good position?
		
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but why toe up as apposed to flush?    I've never hit a lie board or used properly fitted clubs so quite interested to hear what these reasons are?


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			what are these reasons?
		
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Do you really want/need to know?

Just try setting up with the toe perched on the toe of the club, the hands/wrists above the plane, on tip-toes, leaning slightly forward and with a huge amount of tnsion everywhere in your body trying to keep that position. Then try and make a smooth backswing followed by a flowing downswing.

It's rather easier to simply set up in an 'athletically relaxed' position with arms hanging down slightly - which points the toe of the club slightly up. Then a smooth backswing and flowing downswing is a piece of cake!

And if you want some more convincing, watch this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwzOMeXA5Bo

Interesting geographical mix too. A Kiwi in England posting to an Irish guy about an Aussie  in US at a Club named after a place in Scotland!


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## garyinderry (Dec 9, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Do you really want/need to know?

Just try setting up with the toe perched on the toe of the club, the hands/wrists above the plane, on tip-toes, leaning slightly forward and with a huge amount of tnsion everywhere in your body trying to keep that position. Then try and make a smooth backswing followed by a flowing downswing.

It's rather easier to simply set up in an 'athletically relaxed' position with arms hanging down slightly - which points the toe of the club slightly up. Then a smooth backswing and flowing downswing is a piece of cake!

And if you want some more convincing, watch this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwzOMeXA5Bo

Interesting geographical mix too. A Kiwi in England posting to an Irish guy about an Aussie  in US at a Club named after a place in Scotland!
		
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Of course I want/need to know.   :thup:    This is interesting.  I would always try to get the club to sit flush at address. This is probably only the start of my problems.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			Of course I want/need to know.   :thup:    This is interesting.  I would always try to get the club to sit flush at address. This is probably only the start of my problems. 

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<Snelly (et al) mode>
You might want to know, but you very probably don't need to know 

And it's almost certainly a bad thing that you now know!

</Snelly (et al) Mode>


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## garyinderry (Dec 10, 2013)

Knowing, or at least having some knowledge of these things isn't necessarily so I know what to do. Its so I know what not to do.


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## Wildrover (Dec 10, 2013)

Gary, it's normal that the toe is up a little at address because the shaft flexes downwards in the downswing. As you strike the ball, the shaft is flexing, making the club square to the ground at impact. It's important to alter the lie of the club to achieve this, don't just move your hands as this could throw your whole swing out of kilter.


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## garyinderry (Dec 10, 2013)

its all clicking into place!  interesting stuff this.   this would never have dawned on me, no matter how many balls I hit!


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## SGC001 (Dec 10, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That argument is a very unconvincing one though. The Toe-up makes it easier to swing so that the the (all-important) impact position is more likely to be correct - for several reasons. 

Why would you want to make it more difficult to hit the ball properly?
		
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Isn't hat a bit what comes first the chicken or the egg? 

http://wishongolf.com/iron-fitting-iron-out-the-details/

a quote from the link 

"Iron Lie Fitting
What more be said?  Every golfer must have the lie angles of their irons dynamically fit and adjusted to ensure the centre of the sole is the point of contact with the ground.  Not static lie fitting, but dynamic lie fitting so every variable from the swing is accounted for to ensure the proper lie angle for each iron.  Failure to do so is a ticket to missing more greens."

One way to look at the video you posted later would be that the toe is up in his address because his impact has the club bowing, different hand position...


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