# Foxhunting



## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2015)

I see that lifting the foxhunting ban is probably going to a free vote for MP's soon.
Pro hunt body think it will win.

I have never really had a problem with fox hunting other than it is a very expensive and inefficient method of killing foxes. Terriers and gassing used to be much more effective.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 16, 2015)

Witnessed a mole exterminator years ago, pumped the burrows with some sort of gas then ignited it , BOOM flames from the molehills ,instantaneous sorting out of the problem, but think it too is illegal now.

As regards foxhunting, there are better ways of controlling problem foxes, I don't see it as a valid sport and there is an element of cruelty and terror of the chase involved shouldn't be a part of a modern society.

Having said that I go fishing and have shot pigeon and bunny wunnies

Be interesting to have some figures as to what the fox population has done since the ban, I would guess there are more, and certainly more are seen in urban areas


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## Foxholer (May 16, 2015)

It was one of Labour's 'class war' pieces of legislation that was so poorly written that it was pretty much completely ineffectual, so a huge waste of Parliamentary time - and therefore money!

However, repealing it could well be the same! It was, however, an item on/in the Tory Manifesto, so needs to be done!


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## Pin-seeker (May 16, 2015)

We have a fox family living in our horses field. 
Never give us any trouble


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## hors limite (May 16, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			We have a fox family living in our horses field. 
Never give us any trouble
		
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Don't suppose local neighbours /farmers with chickens will feel quite so relaxed.
A few years ago we had chickens for eggs and guinea fowl - a fox burrowed under a wire fence and killed the lot. The fox has no natural predator so it's only hunting in some shape or form that is going to control their numbers.
Not a particular supporter of the fox hunting fraternity but felt that the ban was all part of Labour's politics of envy/ class war rubbish.


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## Pin-seeker (May 16, 2015)

My father-in law Use to have chickens in the field.
He lost a few to foxes.
They don't bother anyone now as far as I am aware.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Witnessed a mole exterminator years ago, pumped the burrows with some sort of gas then ignited it , BOOM flames from the molehills ,instantaneous sorting out of the problem, but think it too is illegal now.

As regards foxhunting, there are better ways of controlling problem foxes, I don't see it as a valid sport and there is an element of cruelty and terror of the chase involved shouldn't be a part of a modern society.

Having said that I go fishing and have shot pigeon and bunny wunnies

*Be interesting to have some figures as to what the fox population has done since the ban*, I would guess there are more, and certainly more are seen in urban areas
		
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Most of them have retired to Spain!


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			It was one of Labour's 'class war' pieces of legislation that was so poorly written that it was pretty much completely ineffectual, so a huge waste of Parliamentary time - and therefore money!

However, repealing it could well be the same! It was, however, an item on/in the Tory Manifesto, so needs to be done!
		
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If they do you had better keep your head down


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2015)

My father once took down two foxes with two shots, quite impressive.
Especially as he fell down between shots and took the second one from a prone position.


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## Ethan (May 16, 2015)

I am with Oscar Wilde on this one : The unspeakable chasing the inedible.


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## Billythefish (May 16, 2015)

There is a Fox roaming the course at Oxley, and he keeps putting me off my shots.



Look that's my excuse and I am sticking to it


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## Liverpoolphil (May 16, 2015)

Barbaric and would be disgusted if they allowed it again.


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## MegaSteve (May 16, 2015)

I have no sympathy with foxy whatsoever...


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2015)

Anyone care to guess who are the most prolific killers of foxes in the UK?

Did anyone answer the RSPB? 

2012/2013 they killed 273 foxes (and over 1000 deer)
2013/2014 they killed 293 foxes (and over 1000 deer)

They kill more foxes in a year than any hunt could ever manage.



http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2014/04/16/managing-predation.aspx


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## PhilTheFragger (May 16, 2015)

The Famous Woburn Fox
After Gibbo's sandwiches


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## HomerJSimpson (May 16, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Witnessed a mole exterminator years ago, pumped the burrows with some sort of gas then ignited it , BOOM flames from the molehills ,instantaneous sorting out of the problem, but think it too is illegal now.
		
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We still have an issue on the course with moles and nothing much seems to be done. Not sure if thats legislation, lack of effort or something else. Mind you knowing our green staff we'd have bomb craters to play out of and they'd make a botch of it!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Anyone care to guess who are the most prolific killers of foxes in the UK?

Did anyone answer the RSPB? 

2012/2013 they killed 273 foxes (and over 1000 deer)
2013/2014 they killed 293 foxes (and over 1000 deer)

They kill more foxes in a year than any hunt could ever manage.
View attachment 15321


http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2014/04/16/managing-predation.aspx

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Dead badgers seem to be 'overtaking' the foxes on our local roads.


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## Mattyboy (May 16, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Anyone care to guess who are the most prolific killers of foxes in the UK?

Did anyone answer the RSPB? 

2012/2013 they killed 273 foxes (and over 1000 deer)
2013/2014 they killed 293 foxes (and over 1000 deer)

They kill more foxes in a year than any hunt could ever manage.
View attachment 15321


http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2014/04/16/managing-predation.aspx

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I would guess its the motor car?


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## SaintHacker (May 16, 2015)

I had a fox nick my ball off the green at Southampton Muni a few years back. True story. Chased the little ********* with a 5 iron but didn't get anywhere near it:angry:


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## Slime (May 16, 2015)

I'm keeping out of this one.
People might make incorrect assumptions!!


*Slime*.


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## Foxholer (May 16, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			I had a fox nick my ball off the green at Southampton Muni a few years back. True story. Chased the little ********* with a 5 iron but didn't get anywhere near it:angry:
		
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Saw a similar thing happen at The West Course (was The Hotel Course then) at Royal Ashdown Forest (17th). It was actually quite comical to see it happen - it looked at the ball, then us, then nipped out, nicked it and buggered off into the woods!


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## Blue in Munich (May 17, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			I had a fox nick my ball off the green at Southampton Muni a few years back. True story. Chased the little ********* with a 5 iron but didn't get anywhere near it:angry:
		
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Foxholer said:



			Saw a similar thing happen at The West Course (was The Hotel Course then) at Royal Ashdown Forest (17th). It was actually quite comical to see it happen - it looked at the ball, then us, then nipped out, nicked it and buggered off into the woods!
		
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I nearly saw a similar thing happen; and then it got so much funnier.  Playing with a mate who hits a hosel rocket.  Fox emerges from the undergrowth, ambles towards ball and my mate throws the offending club at the fox to scare it off.  Fox looks completely unbothered, wanders over to investigate the club, and picks that up instead and starts to make off.  My mate sheds his bag and takes off after the fox, screaming and swearing.  Ball and club were recovered on the same hole, composure took a little longer


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## Foxholer (May 17, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			I nearly saw a similar thing happen; and then it got so much funnier.  Playing with a mate who hits a hosel rocket.  Fox emerges from the undergrowth, ambles towards ball and my mate throws the offending club at the fox to scare it off.  Fox looks completely unbothered, wanders over to investigate the club, and picks that up instead and starts to make off.  My mate sheds his bag and takes off after the fox, screaming and swearing.  Ball and club were recovered on the same hole, composure took a little longer 

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:rofl: :rofl:

A touch of justice even!


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## Fish (May 17, 2015)

Had to wait for the tee to clear at Cooden whilst this fella ate my Mars bar




Then this little fella appeared as he didn't want to miss out so he had my sandwich, very tame and cute.


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## virtuocity (May 17, 2015)

I am not fine with anyone who believes that this disgusting 'sport' is acceptable.


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## Papas1982 (May 17, 2015)

I think even if it was ruled that they were a nussance and controlled. Hunting as done previously isn't right. It's cruel and from what I've seen. Typical toffs having a jolly. 

If if they are affecting your livelihood then by all means use pest control. But the chase is cruel imo. Also, if we keep expanding into their environment. Building in more and more green belt areas, how can we complain that there are more urban foxes?


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## Pin-seeker (May 17, 2015)

Fish said:



			Had to wait for the tee to clear at Cooden whilst this fella ate my Mars bar

View attachment 15328


Then this little fella appeared as he didn't want to miss out so he had my sandwich, very tame and cute.

View attachment 15329

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I'm sure you thought it was nice feeding the foxes,but they shouldn't be encouraged to approach humans. 
The natural fear of humans is a good thing for the foxes & humans IMO.


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## c1973 (May 17, 2015)

I don't have a problem with 'the hunt' to be honest.  And unless you're a Budhist and wouldn't (literally) harm a fly no one should, it would be hypocritical in my book.

Hunting and killing foxy woxy is no different to running around the living room trying to blooter a wasp (for example) with a rolled up newspaper, or squeeshing a spider into the carpet with a shoe.


For me it was always about class, a law passed by city types with no understanding of the countryside and its inhabitants. It did get Labour the 'swampy' vote though.


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## Papas1982 (May 17, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I don't have a problem with 'the hunt' to be honest.  And unless you're a Budhist and wouldn't (literally) harm a fly no one should, it would be hypocritical in my book.

*Hunting and killing foxy woxy is no different to running around the living room trying to blooter a wasp (for example) with a rolled up newspaper, or squeeshing a spider into the carpet with a shoe.*


For me it was always about class, a law passed by city types with no understanding of the countryside and its inhabitants. It did get Labour the 'swampy' vote though. 

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but the "hunt" in those examples last seconds, as boot comes down or paper flattens them. The hit doesn't. And their deaths are also a lot more sudden. Not drawn out. 

I get your point about about them all being killed thiugh. Just think they pat fox hunting is done as much for the pleasure of it as for the necessity.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2015)

If you put together a committee of countryside experts and asked them to write down the best ways to control rural foxes, I think following hounds on horseback would be about 27th on the list.

English only issue, SNP abstaining from the vote.


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## MegaSteve (May 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			English only issue,
		
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English & Welsh...

Scotland has its own act...

Still permitted in NI...


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## KenL (May 17, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			I am not fine with anyone who believes that this disgusting 'sport' is acceptable.
		
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I completely agree.


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## guest100718 (May 18, 2015)

set the dogs on the cats that crap everywhere.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you put together a committee of countryside experts and asked them to write down the best ways to control rural foxes, I think following hounds on horseback would be about 27th on the list.

English only issue, SNP abstaining from the vote.
		
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The issue of fox hunting has nothing to do with controlling foxes, no more than my golf is a way of controlling the free Titleist Pro V1 population. If the same lot could hunt immigrants on horseback, they would claim it as a way of controlling immigrant numbers.


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## MendieGK (May 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Barbaric and would be disgusted if they allowed it again.
		
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Agreed. 

Have no issue with the culling if they are a pest, but to chase them until the are physically exhausted and then let a pack of dogs rip them to shreds is disgusting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2015)

Sure - foxhunting clearly a top priority for a government working out where to find Â£12bn in welfare cuts.


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## guest100718 (May 18, 2015)

I dont see what everyone get  so up arms about it. I bet You're all happy enough buying your antibiotic pumped Â£3 chickens that have never seen the light of day.


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## bladeplayer (May 18, 2015)

The Hunt Club use our land a few times a year for the hunt , my Da & his friends in their younger days used to fence the fox holes on behalf of the hunt so the fox couldnt go to ground . they got tickets for punchestown festival for it .

A few things ive noticed and from experience of being there & watching the hunt first hand is

(1) they hardly ever catch a fox ..

(2) Most of the hunt folk are uppety city or posh folk that often need reminding due to a lot of farms changing owners over the years & they no longer want horses all over the place ,without access through our land they cant reach two of the 3 foxcovers in the area, , Quiet a bit of fun putting some of them in their place ..  


Also seemingly its been proved  Fox's stop giving off scent when they get tired ..


IF farmers are happy to have the horses go through their land , let them on , its just reall a posh jolly up after that


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## bladeplayer (May 18, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			I am not fine with anyone who believes that this disgusting 'sport' is acceptable.
		
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Maybe its a Country / City divide kinda thing


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			I dont see what everyone get  so up arms about it. I bet You're all happy enough buying your antibiotic pumped Â£3 chickens that have never seen the light of day.
		
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Buying a chicken to eat from a butchers is not the same as taking enjoyment from the act of chasing and killing an animal. Very, very different.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2015)

bladeplayer said:



			Maybe its a Country / City divide kinda thing
		
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Absolutely disagree and that is a line constantly peddled by the pro hunt lobby (not pointing a figure at you there, I do not know if you are pro or anti. More making the point it is a mantra they churn out). I have lived in the country all my life and can still see it is wrong to take pleasure in killing. Even city folk understand pest control but fox hunting is not about pest control, it is about a day out, a jolly, an act of pleasure. Getting that from killing an animal is not a city / country thing.


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## StrangelyBrown (May 18, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			I dont see what everyone get  so up arms about it. I bet You're all happy enough buying your antibiotic pumped Â£3 chickens that have never seen the light of day.
		
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I'm not. I'll always go for the higher welfare or free range option. I won't buy any meat from a 'savers' range because I expect that it will be as you describe.

As for fox hunting, if you have a problem with a fox, shoot it. I can't be OK with a pack of dogs chasing a fox to tear it to shreds, dying in agony.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2015)

Trouble is that you can shoot or snare a fox and not be sure of a kill.
A fox will chew off it's leg to escape a snare and a wounded shot fox will probably die a painful death.
At least with the hounds it is a quick death.


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## MegaSteve (May 18, 2015)

Believe urban fox is becoming a real problem...

Noted five dead, recently, on the drive to work...

One in the lane I use to access the A40...
Three along the drive through to Park Royal...
And, one in the service road for the commercial park I work in...

Should you hit one whilst driving they can make a real [expensive] mess of your vehicle...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 18, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trouble is that you can shoot or snare a fox and not be sure of a kill.
A fox will chew off it's leg to escape a snare and a wounded shot fox will probably die a painful death.
*At least with the hounds it is a quick death.*

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Seriously ?! 

The dogs play with the fox when they have it cornered and then snap it's legs and then continue to play with it until they rip it limb from limb !! Nothing quick about it at all


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## bobmac (May 18, 2015)

I think one of the problems is not that they say they are reducing the number of foxs, it's that they get all dressed up in their regalia and red jackets and ponce around the villages before the off, showing the peasants how rich they are on their big horses.
If they were in the back of a land rover in jeans and jumper, there would be less uproar




And the jackets are red, not pink


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2015)

bobmac said:



			I think one of the problems is not that they say they are reducing the number of foxs, it's that *they get all dressed up in their regalia and red jackets and ponce around the villages before the off, showing the peasants how rich they are on their big horses.*
If they were in the back of a land rover in jeans and jumper, there would be less uproar

View attachment 15376



And the jackets are red, not pink
		
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A bit like us lot then around the clubhouse with our enormous buggies and bags - if you were to ask non-golfers that is (and that's my point)


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## patricks148 (May 18, 2015)

Ive actually been on a hunt a couple of times, long ago. I was dating a young lady who's family was into that. It was quite good fun to be honest, though my riding wasn't really as good as i told her it was. We never saw a fox either time.

I'm in favor of the ban as i'm sure there are other ways to control fox numbers that are far more humane. plus i think the drag hunting would be just as much fun.


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## bobmac (May 18, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*A bit like us lot then* around the clubhouse with our enormous buggies and bags - if you were to ask non-golfers that is (and that's my point)
		
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There's absolutely no comparison.


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## bladeplayer (May 18, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Absolutely disagree and that is a line constantly peddled by the pro hunt lobby (not pointing a figure at you there, I do not know if you are pro or anti. More making the point it is a mantra they churn out). I have lived in the country all my life and can still see it is wrong to take pleasure in killing. Even city folk understand pest control but fox hunting is not about pest control, it is about a day out, a jolly, an act of pleasure. Getting that from killing an animal is not a city / country thing.
		
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No interest in hunt at all mate TBH , did a good bit of shooting growing up tho , there will always be exceptions , i just think Country & City folk have different ideas on it , just a personal opinion on it .. 

As i said earlier they very seldom catch anything any way , 

Its up in the realms of Deer Hunting , Hare Coursing, or why you would rear calves for food .. there will be pro & anti everything


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## bladeplayer (May 18, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			Ive actually been on a hunt a couple of times, long ago. I was dating a young lady who's family was into that. It was quite good fun to be honest, though my riding wasn't really as good as i told her it was. We never saw a fox either time.

I'm in favor of the ban as i'm sure there are other ways to control fox numbers that are far more humane. plus i think the drag hunting would be just as much fun.
		
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Good post right there Patrick


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2015)

bobmac said:



			There's absolutely no comparison.
		
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The comparison is that those who do not participate do not really understand


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## MegaSteve (May 18, 2015)

patricks148 said:



			Ive actually been on a hunt a couple of times, long ago. I was dating a young lady who's family was into that. It was quite good fun to be honest, though my riding wasn't really as good as i told her it was. We never saw a fox either time.

I'm in favor of the ban as i'm sure there are other ways to control fox numbers that are far more humane. plus i think the drag hunting would be just as much fun.
		
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I know a lady that used to hunt... For her, she used to say, it was more to do with having a good ride out during the day... A good sit down meal of an evening followed by some night time rumpy pumpy... Said she actually never saw a fox being 'despatched'... And, the chases never really lasted long before foxy gave the hunt the slip... No, she wasn't landed gentry...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2015)

What happens if a randy Scottish dog fox strays across the border to seek a comely English vixen.

Will there be a diplomatic incident.


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## Snelly (May 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ?! 

The dogs play with the fox when they have it cornered and then snap it's legs and then continue to play with it until they rip it limb from limb !! Nothing quick about it at all
		
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Phil's post above is completely misleading and untrue. As are many others on this topic. 

I am in favour of hunting with hounds, have done a lot of it, have a lot of friends that have worked in hunting and understand it much better than anyone else on this forum I would think.  

I would be more than happy to answer every question raised and correct the misconceptions that have been written so far on the thread, if I thought that anyone would take notice and discuss the subject objectively.   However, I think experience shows this cannot be done very easily as it is an emotionally charged discussion where most people are firmly for or against.  

So I will just say that hunting with hounds isn't all about toffs and it certainly isn't about a bloodlust or deriving pleasure from killing.  However, it is a pretty effective way of managing a fox population and the foxes that are killed do not suffer. 


Additionally, whilst I favour the decriminalising of hunting with dogs, I am not in favour of our new government spending much time on this any time soon. Last time it went through the statute book, it took twice the time to discuss that the decision to go to war in Iraq did.  A total disgrace.   It is a political football, highly charged and the new government should be focusing on much more important matters.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Phil's post above is completely misleading and untrue. As are many others on this topic. 

I am in favour of hunting with hounds, have done a lot of it, have a lot of friends that have worked in hunting and understand it much better than anyone else on this forum I would think.  

I would be more than happy to answer every question raised and correct the misconceptions that have been written so far on the thread, if I thought that anyone would take notice and discuss the subject objectively.   However, I think experience shows this cannot be done very easily as it is an emotionally charged discussion where most people are firmly for or against.  

So I will just say that hunting with hounds isn't all about toffs and it certainly isn't about a bloodlust or deriving pleasure from killing.  However, it is a pretty effective way of managing a fox population and the foxes that are killed do not suffer. 


Additionally, whilst I favour the decriminalising of hunting with dogs, I am not in favour of our new government spending much time on this any time soon. Last time it went through the statute book, it took twice the time to discuss that the decision to go to war in Iraq did.  A total disgrace.   It is a political football, highly charged and the new government should be focusing on much more important matters.
		
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..and the truth is that the Tories have won the football match so no need for them to rush into doing this.


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## c1973 (May 18, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			I dont see what everyone get  so up arms about it. I bet You're all happy enough buying your antibiotic pumped Â£3 chickens that have never seen the light of day.
		
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I see what you're saying, and I agree. 


I buy the free range ones myself mind you......that Hugh Fearnely Whittingstal (sp)  geezer converted me.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 18, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Phil's post above is completely *misleading and untrue. *As are many others on this topic. 

I am in favour of hunting with hounds, have done a lot of it, have a lot of friends that have worked in hunting and understand it much better than anyone else on this forum I would think.  

I would be more than happy to answer every question raised and correct the misconceptions that have been written so far on the thread, if I thought that anyone would take notice and discuss the subject objectively.   However, I think experience shows this cannot be done very easily as it is an emotionally charged discussion where most people are firmly for or against.  

So I will just say that hunting with hounds isn't all about toffs and it certainly isn't about a bloodlust or deriving pleasure from killing.  However, it is a pretty effective way of managing a fox population and the foxes that are killed do not suffer. 


Additionally, whilst I favour the decriminalising of hunting with dogs, I am not in favour of our new government spending much time on this any time soon. Last time it went through the statute book, it took twice the time to discuss that the decision to go to war in Iraq did.  A total disgrace.   It is a political football, highly charged and the new government should be focusing on much more important matters.
		
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Maybe this hunt was a one off with

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...a-pack-of-hounds-ripping-a-fox-to-shreds.html

Or this one 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2012/dec/17/fox-cameron-hunt-video

Or this one 

http://m.ledburyreporter.co.uk/news...hounds_savage_fox__WARNING__Graphic_footage_/

There is lots of evidence out there already that back up exactly what I have said

warning - the videos are graphic and show disturbing images


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ?! 

The dogs play with the fox when they have it cornered and then snap it's legs and then continue to play with it until they rip it limb from limb !! Nothing quick about it at all
		
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Complete and utter tosh!

The only animal that does anything like that is --- the domestic cat!

I'm totally with Snelly on this one!


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## USER1999 (May 18, 2015)

I'd ban fishing too, it's not much different, apart from the dogs. 

it's all about out witting an animal with a brain the size of a peanut, and then terrorising it. 

Fishing is worse though, because you chuck it back so you can chase it again next week.

Just a thought.


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## guest100718 (May 18, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Complete and utter tosh!

The only animal that does anything like that is --- the domestic cat!

I'm totally with Snelly on this one!
		
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As a life long dog owner I can confirm that dogs go straight for the kill!


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## c1973 (May 18, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Complete and utter tosh!

The only animal that does anything like that is --- the domestic cat!

I'm totally with Snelly on this one!
		
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Nope, you're wrong there, I've seen whales and dolphins do it too......Not with foxes mind you.  



No big deal anyway, we all play with our food from time to time.


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## Adi2Dassler (May 19, 2015)

I've not read this thread, but my own opinion is that fox hunting is barbaric.If a farmer has problems with foxes then shoot the animals, humanely and quickly.

I really hope The SNP vote on this.I know it's a separate law in Scotland and it would cause a bit of a stooshie re: EVEL, but if the tories are allowing a free vote to their mps, the SNP should do the same.


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## Foliage Finder (May 19, 2015)

Either way, foxes are still going to be killed by landowners. Since the ban, shooting, snaring and flushing to birds of prey have become the methods used. Each of these methods has the potential for prolonged suffering over days, be it trapped in a snare, starving with a broken leg; or hobbling around with an open infected wound if someones marksmanship wasn't up to scratch. There is also potential for these approaches to affect other species as well. There are loopholes which allow hunting with up to two hounds, I believe mainly to allow terriermen to flush a den.

I'd prefer for control of the population to be done by a controlled pack of hounds delivering a swift end to the intended target. Fit, healthy animals give the hunt the slip more often than not as well. 

On a side note, I've been human quarry for a clean boot hunt on a few occasions as well (I run away from a pack of bloodhounds not foxhounds), if anyone is into cross country running with added motivation to go faster then I can highly recommend it. Great fun, especially if you struggle to push yourself!


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Nope, you're wrong there, I've seen whales and dolphins do it too......Not with foxes mind you.  



No big deal anyway, we all play with our food from time to time. 

Click to expand...

I sit corrected! : And add (Leopard) Seals to that too!

But Hounds certainly 'go for the kill', so L'Phil's post was tosh!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2015)

This was being discussed on my Scottish Fitba forum.

Someone suggested, shooting, gassing and terrier work was the best way of controlling the vermin.
He then said that he did not know the best solution for controlling the foxes.


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## alexbrownmp (May 19, 2015)

Snelly said:



*Phil's post above is completely misleading and untrue*. As are many others on this topic. 

I am in favour of hunting with hounds, have done a lot of it, have a lot of friends that have worked in hunting and understand it much better than anyone else on this forum I would think.  

I would be more than happy to answer every question raised and *correct the misconceptions* that have been written so far on the thread, if I thought that anyone would take notice and discuss the subject objectively.   However, I think experience shows this cannot be done very easily as it is an emotionally charged discussion where most people are firmly for or against.  

So I will just say that hunting with hounds isn't all about toffs and it certainly isn't about a bloodlust or deriving pleasure from killing.  However, it is a pretty *effective way of managing a fox population and the foxes that are killed do not suffer. *


Additionally, whilst I favour the decriminalising of hunting with dogs, I am not in favour of our new government spending much time on this any time soon. Last time it went through the statute book, it took twice the time to discuss that the decision to go to war in Iraq did.  A total disgrace.   It is a political football, highly charged and the new government should be focusing on much more important matters.
		
Click to expand...

can you correct your own?

what utter nonsense and the purulent cry of the wannabe pseudo landed gent.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 19, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			can you correct your own?

what utter nonsense and the purulent cry of the wannabe pseudo landed gent.
		
Click to expand...

Can you be a "wannabe pseudo"? I would have thought that you are either one or the other... Unless Snelly has really weird aspirations and would love to be a pseudo landed gent, rather than an actual landed gent.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			can you correct your own?

what utter nonsense and the *purulent cry of the wannabe pseudo landed gent*.
		
Click to expand...

What seems blatant, and ignorant, bigotry spoils any reasoned argument that might be behind this. 

Otherwise, interesting post!


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## Snelly (May 20, 2015)

alexbrownmp said:



			can you correct your own?

what utter nonsense and the purulent cry of the wannabe pseudo landed gent.
		
Click to expand...


Welcome to my blocked list.  (Mod Edit)


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## Sweep (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Barbaric and would be disgusted if they allowed it again.
		
Click to expand...

I could not agree more


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## guest100718 (May 20, 2015)

Sweep said:



			I could not agree more
		
Click to expand...

if your going to ban hunting with dogs then you need to ban all other forms of hunting for sport.

I dont see how you can pick out foxhunting alone.


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## MegaSteve (May 20, 2015)

Cruelty against animals are a strong group...

Currently in their sights are having pubs change their names...

Apparently 'The Fighting Cocks' is offensive to chickens ...


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## Phil2511 (May 20, 2015)

i have followed the hunt a few times, as Bladeplayer said, very very rare the hounds ever catch the fox, I never saw it on any of the hunts i watched, id much prefer to shoot it. The RSPB kill so many fox and deer because they need their numbers controlled to protect the wild birds.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2015)

Justifying fox hunts because sometimes the fox gets away is more than a little tenuous.


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## Snelly (May 22, 2015)

Phil2511 said:



			i have followed the hunt a few times, as Bladeplayer said, very very rare the hounds ever catch the fox, I never saw it on any of the hunts i watched, id much prefer to shoot it.
		
Click to expand...

The above is not true.  Hounds do catch foxes.  Very rare that they draw a blank during a days hunting and the most I have ever experienced is 11 in one day.  It is fair to say though that hardly anyone gets to see them close on the quarry and finish the job.  The mounted field are nearly always too far away from where the huntsman is hunting the hounds, although foot followers can often get closer and see the hounds at work if they correctly anticipate the direction that the fox will take next.

In terms of the coup de grace, a foxhound is a powerful animal and the pack can run 75 miles and more during a day of hunting. They are a pretty big dog too and when they get to their prey, it is over in just a few seconds with the lead couple of hounds killing the fox with a single bite more often than not.  A foxhound vs a fox is about as fair a match as a fox vs a rabbit - no contest.  It is far from barbaric.  Just nature - red in tooth and claw. 

As for those advocating shooting, it isn't as good a method of control as you might think. e.g. Not everyone is an expert marksman and wounding creates a huge amount of unnecessary suffering.  Additionally, the rifle shooter with a lamp will kill or maim all foxes, not just the old, stupid or injured ones.  This includes pregnant vixens or those with cubs to feed who then starve.  Not ideal.  And hounds?  Mother Nature is quite amazing in that when with cubs, the scent of a vixen diminishes a great deal meaning that they have a far better chance of eluding a hunting pack. 

In general terms, it is true to say that a fox in the prime of it's life will invariably show the hounds a clean pair of heels. 


Alexbrownmp's last post was illuminating in that it pointed to the real reason that people are anti hunting - a lack of genuine understanding and an axe to grind in terms of the now almost irrelevant, class system in the UK.  Hunting attracts people from all areas of the social spectrum and whilst there are a few lords and ladies around, the majority of those that hunt are just normal people, usually from rural areas.


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## garyinderry (May 22, 2015)

All seems a bit heavy handed.  Like getting a group of mates around to kill a fly.

Could they not be trapped and released somewhere else.  Or would that be too sensible?


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## Pin-seeker (May 22, 2015)

Snelly said:



			The above is not true.  Hounds do catch foxes.  Very rare that they draw a blank during a days hunting and the most I have ever experienced is 11 in one day.  It is fair to say though that hardly anyone gets to see them close on the quarry and finish the job.  The mounted field are nearly always too far away from where the huntsman is hunting the hounds, although foot followers can often get closer and see the hounds at work if they correctly anticipate the direction that the fox will take next.

In terms of the coup de grace, a foxhound is a powerful animal and the pack can run 75 miles and more during a day of hunting. They are a pretty big dog too and when they get to their prey, it is over in just a few seconds with the lead couple of hounds killing the fox with a single bite more often than not.  A foxhound vs a fox is about as fair a match as a fox vs a rabbit - no contest.  It is far from barbaric.  Just nature - red in tooth and claw. 

As for those advocating shooting, it isn't as good a method of control as you might think. e.g. Not everyone is an expert marksman and wounding creates a huge amount of unnecessary suffering.  Additionally, the rifle shooter with a lamp will kill or maim all foxes, not just the old, stupid or injured ones.  This includes pregnant vixens or those with cubs to feed who then starve.  Not ideal.  And hounds?  Mother Nature is quite amazing in that when with cubs, the scent of a vixen diminishes a great deal meaning that they have a far better chance of eluding a hunting pack. 

In general terms, it is true to say that a fox in the prime of it's life will invariably show the hounds a clean pair of heels. 


Alexbrownmp's last post was illuminating in that it pointed to the real reason that people are anti hunting - a lack of genuine understanding and an axe to grind in terms of the now almost irrelevant, class system in the UK.  Hunting attracts people from all areas of the social spectrum and whilst there are a few lords and ladies around, the majority of those that hunt are just normal people, usually from rural areas.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure you should be posting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. 
Try another Google search on the subject


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Not sure you should be posting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. 
Try another Google search on the subject
		
Click to expand...

H'mm! I think you should read Snelly's earlier posts!!

It's like saying Alistair Cook know's nothing about Captaining England!


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## Pin-seeker (May 22, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! I think you should read Snelly's earlier posts!!

It's like saying Alistair Cook know's nothing about Captaining England!
		
Click to expand...

Read it :thup:


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## PhilTheFragger (May 22, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Read it :thup:
		
Click to expand...

And??  What's your experience ?


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2015)

Pin-seeker said:



			Read it :thup:
		
Click to expand...

And yet you still posted that Snelly 'knows nothing about the subject'! That's completely, and ridiculously, illogical!

And note. This comment is not taking a view on the validity of either opinion, whatever they may be!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			All seems a bit heavy handed.  Like getting a group of mates around to kill a fly.

Could they not be trapped and released somewhere else.  Or would that be too sensible?
		
Click to expand...

Far too sensible - and doesn't allow them to Tally Ho with the pimms whilst the hunt a harmless fox and have the hounds rip to shreds

Thankfully don't think have heard much more talk about it - hopefully the idea has been binned and it will continue to be banned and the toffs can find a less cruel activity to pursue


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## Phil2511 (May 22, 2015)

Snelly said:



			As for those advocating shooting, it isn't as good a method of control as you might think. e.g. Not everyone is an expert marksman and wounding creates a huge amount of unnecessary suffering.  Additionally, the rifle shooter with a lamp will kill or maim all foxes, not just the old, stupid or injured ones.  This includes pregnant vixens or those with cubs to feed who then starve.  Not ideal.  And hounds?  Mother Nature is quite amazing in that when with cubs, the scent of a vixen diminishes a great deal meaning that they have a far better chance of eluding a hunting pack. 

In general terms, it is true to say that a fox in the prime of it's life will invariably show the hounds a clean pair of heels.
		
Click to expand...

Shooting is most probably the best way to deal with a fox, IMO of course, all your comments are rubbish, to even get a licence to hold a rifle of suitable calibre, you must have previous experience of smaller calibre rifles, also you dont need to be a sniper to kill a fox, you can call them in by making a squeak using your hand, or get calls to do that, a quick watch of youtube will show foxes being called in to within feet of a shooter. Many shooters will also leave foxes and pigeons during breeding season. Unless requested to remove a problem fox by landowners. In fact one shooter on a group im a member of, only last week, released a fox cub caught in a mink trap,


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## Phil2511 (May 22, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			All seems a bit heavy handed.  Like getting a group of mates around to kill a fly.

Could they not be trapped and released somewhere else.  Or would that be too sensible?
		
Click to expand...

That would be silly, they are vermin, they kill for fun, not for food like other predators, a fox enters a hen house, kills every single chicken and then takes 1 away for dinner, lambs, sometimes calves. The numbers need maintained for a reason.


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## upsidedown (May 22, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			All seems a bit heavy handed.  Like getting a group of mates around to kill a fly.

Could they not be trapped and released somewhere else.  Or would that be too sensible?
		
Click to expand...

Released where? They are a nuisance any where near livestock in the country 

Having seen the damage and wanton killing of young lambs and chickens they are Vermin nothing more.


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2015)

Yup, anything that wantonly kills animals for fun should be considered vermin.


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## Hacker Khan (May 22, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, anything that wantonly kills animals for fun should be considered vermin.
		
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Look, speaking as a member of the landed gentry I am sick of you woolly yoghurt eating liberal left wing communists pontificating about stuff you have know nothing about. Just go back to your strikes and quinoa and mung bean salad and leave us country folk alone.


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Look, speaking as a member of the landed gentry I am sick of you woolly yoghurt eating liberal left wing communists pontificating about stuff you have know nothing about. Just go back to your strikes and quinoa and mung bean salad and leave us country folk alone.
		
Click to expand...

Yoghurt has feelings too you know. All that live culture!!!! I'm a breatharian, existing solely on the positive life force emitted by the Holy Gaia and present in the air we breathe.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 22, 2015)

Enter stage left the Colonel from Monty Python to announce that this thread has got rather silly


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## c1973 (May 22, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Enter stage left the Colonel from Monty Python to announce that this thread has got rather silly 
View attachment 15419

Click to expand...

No it hasn't!


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Enter stage left the Colonel from Monty Python to announce that this thread has got rather silly 
View attachment 15419

Click to expand...

Don't they all Phil? It's a bunch of golfers talking from behind a keyboard about something that most know the square root of toad hall about.. It's what makes the forum so interesting (and usually silly). I just wish I had a nice bottle of Red or 2 to wash it down with....


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## PhilTheFragger (May 22, 2015)

I'll drink to that


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, anything that wantonly kills animals for fun should be considered vermin.
		
Click to expand...

I fear most missed your point here Dan!


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## Snelly (May 25, 2015)

Phil2511 said:



			Shooting is most probably the best way to deal with a fox, IMO of course, all your comments are rubbish, to even get a licence to hold a rifle of suitable calibre, you must have previous experience of smaller calibre rifles, also you dont need to be a sniper to kill a fox, you can call them in by making a squeak using your hand, or get calls to do that, a quick watch of youtube will show foxes being called in to within feet of a shooter. Many shooters will also leave foxes and pigeons during breeding season. Unless requested to remove a problem fox by landowners. In fact one shooter on a group im a member of, only last week, released a fox cub caught in a mink trap,
		
Click to expand...

My comments are all rubbish?

I have a .22LR, a semi-auto .22LR, a .17HMR, a .243 and a .308. Several shotguns too.  I know a fair bit about shooting thanks. More than most in fact. 

Same goes for hunting.   

I don't do much of either any more and am in the process of selling three rifles.   But I have done a huge amount in the past and possibly know a bit more about these subjects that the armchair experts on this forum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2015)

And so the SNP shot Cameron's fox.


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## Slime (Jul 17, 2015)

I wish they'd keep their snout out of it.

*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so the SNP shot Cameron's fox.
		
Click to expand...

Nope......they did not even have to vote.
The Tory rebels  had sufficient numbers to scupper Cameron's foxy vote.


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## Snelly (Jul 17, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so the SNP shot Cameron's fox.
		
Click to expand...

And one imagines that in the long term, themselves in the foot.  Duplicitous opportunists.


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## Paul77 (Jul 17, 2015)

In 2014 before I started in Sports photography, I was a wildlife photographer. While watching a Kingfisher nest I spotted a Fox den. Coming up to the time of year for that sort of thing I had both on watch. When the wee fox cubs emerged it was pretty amazing to watch and photgraph. Everyone has a reason to do things. Killing animals for sport is silly in my opinion. What if it was the other way around? 

Anyway here was a resulting image, and I still couldn't understand why anyone would want to kill these amazing creatures 






Pair of Fox cubs by Paul Stewart, on Flickr


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 17, 2015)

Snelly said:



			And one imagines that in the long term, themselves in the foot.  Duplicitous opportunists.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly not, another masterstroke by them, I fear. The tories will beef up and force through EVEL, the SNP will play the victim and stir up even more anti-English feeling. The more cross-border strife they can provoke the better it suits them.

I'd hoped that some of my fellow citizens would note that Sturgeon has been revealed as a bare-faced liar on this issue and start to question her more closely but, sadly, that doesn't seem to have been the case.


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## DCB (Jul 17, 2015)

Used to live on the outskirts of Edinburgh. We had problems with urban foxes  and badgers and the damage they caused. Been out in the sticks for almost 20 years and other than in worst winter conditions our local foxes tend to keep themselves to themselves. Bigger problem is the local deer population which seem to want to eat anything that springs forth from the ground. Hard to regenerate woodland when all the saplings are got at by deer.

Whatever the animal, it's going to cause some damage or disturbance since we humans have managed to slowly spread ourselves over virtually every accessible piece of land. Often, we've moved onto their habitat. That does not however give us the right to exterminate the local wildlife on a whim. However, careful management is required or, as was seen in the bad winters of 2009 & 10 over population of certain local species does cause them hardship and in winters like those two, starvation and slow death. Without careful management that will happen again.


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## c1973 (Jul 17, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sadly not, another masterstroke by them, I fear. The tories will beef up and force through EVEL, the SNP will play the victim and stir up even more anti-English feeling. The more cross-border strife they can provoke the better it suits them.

I'd hoped that some of my fellow citizens would note that Sturgeon has been revealed as a bare-faced liar on this issue and start to question her more closely but, sadly, that doesn't seem to have been the case.
		
Click to expand...


Couldn't agree more. 

Don't hold your breath waiting on the media up here to pick up on them being exposed as hypocrites and liars over this either, You'll be holding it awhile! 



If I'm correct, they have just voted (did Labours couple of hundred votes not count  btw) not to allow hunting foxy woxy with more than two dugs in England and Wales, yet currently preside over a law (and have done for a good few years) in Scotland that does allow hunting foxy woxy with more than two dugs?   If you could make it up you wouldn't, cos no one would believe you. 

Quite frankly they're behaviour over this is an embarrassment to Scotland imo. 
I was dead set against the Torys bringing in the English votes in the manner they were doing (I agree with the premise of English/Welsh votes though), now I hope they do bulldoze it through. Our esteemed elected representatives deserve no less after the shameful way they conducted themselves over this. Why should you try and work with a party as petty as this? 
Progressive politics? Aye, right! The usual politics of engineering petty arguments from the snp when, quite frankly, the house has more important issues to be busying itself with.



Surprised this wasn't brought up a few days ago actually. Did the usual cheerleaders not notice it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

Loosen up you guys... for all that is going on in this world Cameron chooses to re- introduce hunting with dogs.
Something that the vast majority of the UK citizens are against.
Why did he have to whip this when it should obviously be a free conscious vote.
Silly sods been caught out again.

Sturgeon was just defending the English silent majority........well done her.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Couldn't agree more. 

Don't hold your breath waiting on the media up here to pick up on them being exposed as hypocrites and liars over this either, You'll be holding it awhile! 



If I'm correct, they have just voted (did Labours couple of hundred votes not count  btw) not to allow hunting foxy woxy with more than two dugs in England and Wales, yet currently preside over a law (and have done for a good few years) in Scotland that does allow hunting foxy woxy with more than two dugs?   If you could make it up you wouldn't, cos no one would believe you. 

Quite frankly they're behaviour over this is an embarrassment to Scotland imo. 
I was dead set against the Torys bringing in the English votes in the manner they were doing (I agree with the premise of English/Welsh votes though), now I hope they do bulldoze it through. Our esteemed elected representatives deserve no less after the shameful way they conducted themselves over this. Why should you try and work with a party as petty as this? 
Progressive politics? Aye, right! The usual politics of engineering petty arguments from the snp when, quite frankly, the house has more important issues to be busying itself with.



Surprised this wasn't brought up a few days ago actually. Did the usual cheerleaders not notice it? 

Click to expand...

There was no vote taken as Cameron knew he would suffer an embarrassing defeat from his own party's rebels.

Re the England Westminster question.

That can only be sorted by 
a] Westminster abolishing The Scottish Parliament.
b] Scotland becoming an independent country
c] England establishing it's own Parliament.

Other than that the England question will make the West Lothian question look like a wee puff of wind.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Loosen up you guys... for all that is going on in this world Cameron chooses to re- introduce hunting with dogs.
Something that the vast majority of the UK citizens are against.
Why did he have to whip this when it should obviously be a free conscious vote.
Silly sods been caught out again.

Sturgeon was just defending the English silent majority........well done her.
		
Click to expand...

You really are the most ill informed self-opinionated man.

If you bothered researching you would see that the Conservative MP's were the only ones who were to be allowed a free vote,

Labour, Lib-Dems and SNP decided to whip their members although quite what it had to do with the SNP is beyond me.

Their involvement merely strengthens the case for EVEL in the eyes of most English voters.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Loosen up you guys... for all that is going on in this world Cameron chooses to re- introduce hunting with dogs.
Something that the vast majority of the UK citizens are against.
Why did he have to whip this when it should obviously be a free conscious vote.
Silly sods been caught out again.

*Sturgeon was just defending the English silent majority........well done her.*

Click to expand...

How kind of her; if only she'd had the courtesy to ask me what I wanted before deciding for me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			You really are the most ill informed self-opinionated man.

If you bothered researching you would see that the Conservative MP's were the only ones who were to be allowed a free vote,

Labour, Lib-Dems and SNP decided to whip their members although quite what it had to do with the SNP is beyond me.

Their involvement merely strengthens the case for EVEL in the eyes of most English voters.
		
Click to expand...

So why did Cameron pull the vote?
Did he not have the support of all of his MP's.


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## Slime (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Sturgeon was just defending the English silent majority........well done her.*

Click to expand...

Wake up and smell the coffee.
She's just sticking her snout in other peoples' business, where it's not wanted, just to massage her own over-inflated ego as she tries to convince herself of her own self-importance.

Two faced lying cow.

*Slime*.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why did Cameron pull the vote?
Did he not have the support of all of his MP's.
		
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Clearly you struggle to understand the meaning of "a free vote".

The party leadership may have a view or even a preference but has the courage to allow its members to vote according to their conscience as the legislation is seen as a matter of principle.

Sadly not all political party's leaderships have similar courage.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Clearly you struggle to understand the meaning of "a free vote".

The party leadership may have a view or even a preference but has the courage to allow its members to vote according to their conscience as the legislation is seen as a matter of principle.

Sadly not all political party's leaderships have similar courage.
		
Click to expand...

As I thought, not enough support.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2015)

Slime said:



			Wake up and smell the coffee.
She's just sticking her snout in other peoples' business, where it's not wanted, just to massage her own over-inflated ego as she tries to convince herself of her own self-importance.

Two faced lying cow.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

When it comes to lying she is a total novice compared to Cameron and Carmichael.
Think back to what they were saying/begging/pleading prior to the independence vote.

Anyway, I thought the 56/7 were powerless in Westminster.

[PS Is that not rather rude, sexist language to use against the Scottish First Minister].


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I thought, not enough support.
		
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In his own party, yes. How do you know how the other parties would have voted without a whip?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When it comes to lying she is a total novice compared to Cameron and Carmichael.
Think back to what they were saying/begging/pleading prior to the independence vote. *As opposed to the completely honest SNP, eh! Scotland are lucky they have such saints leading the country, who in no way are exactly the same as every other politician.*

Anyway, I thought the 56/7 were powerless in Westminster.*Guess we'll never know. You've been saying how this was all due to the tory back benchers, are you suddenly changing tack and now claiming this for the SNP?*

.
		
Click to expand...

Comments as above


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## Slime (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When it comes to lying she is a total novice compared to Cameron and Carmichael.
Think back to what they were saying/begging/pleading prior to the independence vote.

Anyway, I thought the 56/7 were powerless in Westminster.
*
[PS Is that not rather rude, sexist language to use against the Scottish First Minister]*.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, just saying it as it is.

*Slime*.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I thought, not enough support.
		
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I really cannot understand how you can be so stupid that you consistently fail to understand something as basic as "a free vote". Whether the Government has sufficient support from within its own ranks is irrelevant on a matter of conscience.

What is sad is that the members from other parties including the sainted SNP allow themselves to be treated as lobby fodder by their so called leadership in the hope of scoring some peculiar victory.

Gutless lot our opposition MP's.

As for Sturgeon I think Slime has said it all.


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## c1973 (Jul 17, 2015)

Slime said:



			Nope, just saying it as it is.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

In fairness, it is imo a fairly accurate description. Particularly on this issue.



What happened to the 'we won't vote on issues not affecting Scotland'?


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## Snelly (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Loosen up you guys... for all that is going on in this world Cameron chooses to re- introduce hunting with dogs.
Something that the vast majority of the UK citizens are against.
Why did he have to whip this when it should obviously be a free conscious vote.
Silly sods been caught out again.

Sturgeon was just defending the English silent majority........well done her.
		
Click to expand...

You are completely wrong, as usual. But don't let the facts get in the way of your incessant nationalist sniping.


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2015)

c1973 said:



			In fairness, it is imo a fairly accurate description. Particularly on this issue.



What happened to the 'we won't vote on issues not affecting Scotland'?
		
Click to expand...

Not bad for a novice liar though... wonder if she lies to the Scottish electorate? Silly me! She's a politician, of course she lies.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 17, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Not bad for a novice liar though... wonder if she lies to the Scottish electorate? Silly me! She's a politician, of course she lies.
		
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If in any doubt, you can easily work out when a politician is lying; their lips are moving.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			If in any doubt, you can easily work out when a politician is lying; their lips are moving.
		
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She doesn't have any!


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## Dellboy (Jul 17, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That can only be sorted by 
a] Westminster abolishing The Scottish Parliament.
b] Scotland becoming an independent country
c] England establishing it's own Parliament.

Other than that the England question will make the West Lothian question look like a wee puff of wind.
		
Click to expand...

Either A or B would get my vote :thup:


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## c1973 (Jul 17, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Not bad for a novice liar though... wonder if she lies to the Scottish electorate? Silly me! She's a politician, of course she lies.
		
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Of course she does. 

Her and her predecessor were caught out lying to Holyrood when they were trying to block the truth about legal advice being sought about EU membership. 
Cost the taxpayers a few quid that one.

No different to any other politician, regardless of what they and their sheep say and believe.


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## chippa1909 (Jul 17, 2015)

The 'we won't vote on issues which don't effect Scotland' went out the window when every single SNP amendment  to the Scotland Bill was voted down by the Tories (both blue and red varieties).


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## chippa1909 (Jul 17, 2015)

Some people like to call SNP supporters 'sheep'. Please look in before looking out.


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## c1973 (Jul 18, 2015)

Baaaaaa. &#128015;









If you believe that to be the reason, then fair enough, your opinion is yours. 
I'm firmly in the 'polemical politics' camp (much more of an accurate description of the snp than 'progressive politics', is it not?)


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## KenL (Jul 18, 2015)

Foxhunting is not an English vote.  It is about the protection of wildlife.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jul 18, 2015)

KenL said:



			Foxhunting is not an English vote.  It is about the protection of wildlife.
		
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In England. If the SNP care so much, why is the Scottish law different?


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## FairwayDodger (Jul 18, 2015)

KenL said:



			Foxhunting is not an English vote.  It is about the protection of wildlife.
		
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Lol.

When the FM was outlining her principled stance about the sort of issues the SNP wouldn't vote on fox hunting was the very example she cited so you can infer it is one of the most obvious English only matters. 

This week showed that the snp will do anything to provoke an argument and that the FM is an unprincipled liar. The attempts to justify themselves since then have been embarrassing.


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## KenL (Jul 18, 2015)

I am not defending the SNP, can't stand them and I am Scottish.
I am totally opposed to fox hunting in any shape or form north and south of the "border".


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## virtuocity (Jul 18, 2015)

The SNP has stood in to vote against hunting animals for sport.

I for one am disgusted.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2015)

chippa1909 said:



			The 'we won't vote on issues which don't effect Scotland' went out the window when every single SNP amendment  to the Scotland Bill was voted down by the Tories (both blue and red varieties).
		
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You mean the Scotland Bill that was agreed by all parties, including the SNP, last November and was supposed to go through Parliament unopposed..... right until the SNP reneged on that agreement and decided they wanted to amend it.

So just who broke that agreement first? Shock of shocks! It was the squeaky clean, hard done by SNP, who then shouted from the roof tops that the nasty English MP's had voted down their amendments but failed to add that they decided to renege first...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jul 18, 2015)

KenL said:



			I am not defending the SNP, can't stand them and I am Scottish.
I am totally opposed to fox hunting in any shape or form north and south of the "border".
		
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I am neither a Conservative nor in favour of fox-hunting and for those reasons I was happy that the PM made this an issue of conscience allowing his members a free vote.

What I do not understand is why the SNP felt the need to perform a U-turn on its stated position of not involving itself in purely English legislation.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 18, 2015)

Paul77 said:



			In 2014 before I started in Sports photography, I was a wildlife photographer. While watching a Kingfisher nest I spotted a Fox den. Coming up to the time of year for that sort of thing I had both on watch. When the wee fox cubs emerged it was pretty amazing to watch and photgraph. Everyone has a reason to do things. Killing animals for sport is silly in my opinion. What if it was the other way around? 

Anyway here was a resulting image, and I still couldn't understand why anyone would want to kill these amazing creatures 






Pair of Fox cubs by Paul Stewart, on Flickr
		
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They aren't quite so cute after they've paid a visit to your chicken coop...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2015)

There appears to be many pro foxhunting posters on here.


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## Slime (Jul 18, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I am neither a Conservative nor in favour of fox-hunting and for those reasons I was happy that the PM made this an issue of conscience allowing his members a free vote.

*What I do not understand is why the SNP felt the need to perform a U-turn on its stated position of not involving itself in purely English legislation.*

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Publicity & a lot of 'look at me, aren't I important'.

*Slime*.


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## Billythefish (Jul 18, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			In England. If the SNP care so much, why is the Scottish law different?
		
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I would like an answer to this question also...


The silence is deafening


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## KenL (Jul 18, 2015)

Goodness knows - all laws should be the same in the UK.  One nation one set of laws!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2015)

Billythefish said:



			I would like an answer to this question also...


The silence is deafening
		
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Foxhunting in Scotland is about as popular as Shinty in London.
I think we have only a handful of active packs so not enough to bother folks.
Most see it as the end of bygone sports like cock fighting and badger baiting.


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## Old Skier (Jul 18, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Foxhunting in Scotland is about as popular as Shinty in London.
I think we have only a handful of active packs so not enough to bother folks.
Most see it as the end of bygone sports like cock fighting and badger baiting.
		
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Can you clear this up once and for all.

You prefer being governed by a hypocritical, u-turning  non democratic party. Hypocritical in the fact that their not keen on the RUK having the same laws as Scotland. Un democratic in the way they (you) the SNP cannot understand that the majority of the Scotish nation do not wish independent.  U-turning in the fact that they stated that they have no interest in voting on England/Wales only issues.

You hate all things British apart from your wife and children.

Your not a Tory fan.


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## Old Skier (Jul 18, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Foxhunting in Scotland is about as popular as Shinty in London.
I think we have only a handful of active packs so not enough to bother folks.
Most see it as the end of bygone sports like cock fighting and badger baiting.
		
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But you appear to be happy with the way the animals are ripped to pieces in Scotland and blindly back this bunch of SNP hand wringers.


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## DCB (Jul 18, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			But you appear to be happy with the way the animals are ripped to pieces in Scotland and blindly back this bunch of SNP hand wringers.
		
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Think you'll find that the kind of hunt you refer to has been banned up here since 2002. Dogs should be used to drive the fox into the marksmans sight.


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## c1973 (Jul 18, 2015)

Indeed. But is it not the number of dogs used that was the issue here. 
Well, that and the snp engineering yet another point scoring opportunity.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2015)

What a bag of spanners Scotland has made of it's representation.  No wonder the Westminster Scottish MPs are like Nichola's sheep bleating Her progressive balderdash!

English MP's can vote on UK matters and will also be able to vote on English matters when EVEL comes in.    Scotland's UK MP's can't vote on Scottish devolved matters though.   Seems like they have painted themselves into a second class corner.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			What a bag of spanners Scotland has made of it's representation.  No wonder the Westminster Scottish MPs are like Nichola's sheep bleating Her progressive balderdash!

English MP's can vote on UK matters and will also be able to vote on English matters when EVEL comes in.    Scotland's UK MP's can't vote on Scottish devolved matters though.   Seems like they have painted themselves into a second class corner.
		
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Have you ever considered that if EVEL does come to a UK parliament there may not be any Scottish MP's in the building to vote.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have you ever considered that if EVEL does come to a UK parliament there may not be any Scottish MP's in the building to vote.
		
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Thought they were proponents of devolved power!   If they wanted to stay away like Sinn fein then I guess it would not cause any tears for the English.

This Fox Hunting debacle has shown them for the petty chancers we suspected,  I think the Scottish people will learn by it and  make different choices next time.


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## Billythefish (Jul 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Foxhunting in Scotland is about as popular as Shinty in London.
I think we have only a handful of active packs so not enough to bother folks.
Most see it as the end of bygone sports like cock fighting and badger baiting.
		
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Fair enough.  

Not the question tho was it?  Why is the snp voting against a bill in westminster, while not changing the law in scotland? 

Does it not seem a little hypocritical?  Point scoring? **** stirring?  

Truthfully


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2015)

Billythefish said:



			Fair enough.  

Not the question tho was it?  Why is the snp voting against a bill in westminster, while not changing the law in scotland? 

Does it not seem a little hypocritical?  Point scoring? **** stirring?  

Truthfully
		
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She is just playing Cameron at his own silly wee game.
Why would Cameron wish to strengthen the laws in England against the overwhelming views of the English population?
Is that not also hypocritical.


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## Foxholer (Jul 19, 2015)

Phil2511 said:



			That would be silly, they are vermin, *they kill for fun, not for food* like other predators, a fox enters a hen house, kills every single chicken and then takes 1 away for dinner, lambs, sometimes calves. The numbers need maintained for a reason.
		
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While I certainly agree that they kill every chicken in a hen-house they enter but I don't believe it's 'killing for fun'! A hen-house is an unnatural environment, - in the wild, all the others would have 'flown the coop'! So how it reacts to what it almost certainly perceives as a threat (the rest of the chickens flapping about - in panic) is just its natural defence imo! It's up to the keeper of the chickens to make the hen-house fox-proof imo!

The only animal (perhaps, well fed cats apart) that kills for fun, is Man! Every other animal's killing (including foxes - who are indeed vermin) is primarily about survival!


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## KenL (Jul 19, 2015)

A first class post Foxholer.


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## Slime (Jul 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Foxhunting in Scotland is about as popular as Shinty in London.
I think we have only a handful of active packs so not enough to bother folks.
*Most see it as the end of bygone sports like cock fighting and badger baiting.*

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and competetive football in Scotland .

*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2015)

Slime said:



			and competetive football in Scotland .

*Slime*.
		
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As Hearts lost 1-0 to the mighty PNE yesterday, you could be right.


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## chippa1909 (Jul 19, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Thought they were proponents of devolved power!   If they wanted to stay away like Sinn fein then I guess it would not cause any tears for the English.

This Fox Hunting debacle has shown them for the petty chancers we suspected,  I think the Scottish people will learn by it and  make different choices next time.
		
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SNP support is rising (polls suggest up 10% since the GE).
The only thing that might slow, stop or reverse this trend would be a strong Labour party.
Guess that's not happening anytime soon. :thup:


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## c1973 (Jul 19, 2015)

What is very apparent in this thread is that there is no defence for their stance that stands up to the most casual observers questioning, let alone scrutiny. I find that quite telling.




Je suis Dolly. 

Baaaaa.  &#128015;


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## Foxholer (Jul 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			What is very apparent in this thread is that there is no defence for their stance that stands up to the most casual observers questioning, let alone scrutiny. I find that quite telling.




Je suis Dolly. 

Baaaaa.  &#128015;
		
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Eh? What?

It's Politics - a particularly nasty, childish pastime/occupation performed by folk who have far too much power and opinion of their own worth - but are doing an essential job, occasionally quite well! Anything that you can get away with that causes 'the other side' grief is absolutely fine!

A bad play by Cameron (he should have waited for EVEL to be resolved); Simple covering move by SNP that actually gave them some relevance - something that I believe will be rare in this parliament! But that won't stop them from being noisy all the same!


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## c1973 (Jul 19, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Eh? What?

It's Politics - a particularly nasty, childish pastime/occupation performed by folk who have far too much power and opinion of their own worth - but are doing an essential job, occasionally quite well*! Anything that you can get away with that causes 'the other side' grief is absolutely fine!
*
A bad play by Cameron (he should have waited for EVEL to be resolved); Simple covering move by SNP that actually gave them some relevance - something that I believe will be rare in this parliament! But that won't stop them from being noisy all the same!
		
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And that's the  'progressive politics' that was part of their election platform is it? 

Ill say it again, there is still no defence for their uturn that stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. It's all very well being 'noisy', 'causing grief' etc, but surely you should be able to make a defence of your actions that is even remotely believable? 
They can't, their sheep like followers can't and there is a reason for that....it was indefensible.


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## chippa1909 (Jul 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			And that's the  'progressive politics' that was part of their election platform is it? 

Ill say it again, there is still no defence for their uturn that stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. It's all very well being 'noisy', 'causing grief' etc, but surely you should be able to make a defence of your actions that is even remotely believable? 
They can't, their sheep like followers can't and there is a reason for that....it was indefensible.
		
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In the favourite words of the Unionists after the referendum, " get over it ". :rofl:


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## Imurg (Jul 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She is just playing Cameron at his own silly wee game.
Why would Cameron wish to strengthen the laws in England against the overwhelming views of the English population?
Is that not also hypocritical.
		
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So at least we're all agreed they are hypocritical then.........


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## Foxholer (Jul 19, 2015)

Imurg said:



			So at least we're all agreed they are *ALL* hypocritical then.........
		
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FTFY! 

There's 4 years of this sort of shenanigans before they all tuck their heads in and hope the voters forget how silly and childish their activities have been! And, of course, the voters do - or simply ignore it as 'politics'!

Ironically, it seems more likely that an MP will get kicked out for some 'non work-related' mini-scandal than for actually being incompetent or for fiddling expenses etc. - at least at the higher levels!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			FTFY! 

Ironically, it seems more likely that an MP will get kicked out for some 'non work-related' mini-scandal than for actually being incompetent or for fiddling expenses etc. - at least at the higher levels!
		
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Not so sure about that Carmichael's coat is on a shoogly peg.


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## Foxholer (Jul 19, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not so sure about that Carmichael's coat is on a shoogly peg.
		
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An absolute classic example!

Any other 'profession' and he'd be suspended pending an inquiry which, given his admission, would kick him out smartly! It's the equivalent of insider dealing/rate rigging in the finance industry, operation switching in the surgical one, or some of the dodgy things that happen from time to time in the racing one imo!

And MPs call each other 'honorable'! Pah! If he had had any 'honour', he'd have resigned when he realised he'd been found out imo! Though a man of honour would never have acted that way in the first place - that's the deniability that spin doctors provide if they continue that obscene Blairist style!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2015)

The latest 'nice but Tim Liberal'  thinks Carmichael deserves another chance..........what does that tell us about his leadership qualities.?
Next breath he is talking about about the Liberals taking Labour's place in Scotland.
Shall I suggest his strap line is 'Trust us, we are the Liberals'.


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