# Did You Vote Today?



## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2014)

If the answer is no, why not?


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2014)

Just about to... and is it safe to say it will be a protest vote - UKIP. I'm fed up of the arrogance of the 3 main parties. I'm fed up of not being given hard facts, only opinions, and being told vote 'x' coz "its the right thing to do." I'll decide what's the right thing for me, not some jumped up Etonian who hasn't got a grip on what life is really like.


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## c1973 (May 22, 2014)

No. 

I don't pay close enough attention to the prospective candidates to make a considered choice. That, and I couldn't be bothered.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2014)

Just on my way to vote and I can assure you that it will not be for the single issue lot led by joker Nigel. IMO the biggest hypocrite in UK political life.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2014)

I think if there is a large swing to UKIP in England and Wales it will strengthen the Yes vote in Scotland


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2014)

There Is no party or person I trust or have belief in 

Vote card was ruined and put in the box


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## upsidedown (May 22, 2014)

Doing it with HiD later


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## Khamelion (May 22, 2014)

No, I voted once when I turned 18 and have not voted since, I'm now 45. I live in an area that is staunch labour and no matter what I vote it will always remain a labour seat. As for todays MEP vote, meh, politicians are all as crooked as each other, they'll give you all the platitudes and tell you what you want t hear to get your vote, then stab you in the back.

Anyway this country is screwed now as it stands, to many elected governments whose leader has yellow jelly for a backbone has each in turn managed to progressively make a worse job than the government that came before.

Just waiting for the day I can buy my own island and be my own government.


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## fundy (May 22, 2014)

just back from voting now


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## AmandaJR (May 22, 2014)

Just back. Almost didn't bother but my Dad always told me it was a privilege never to be taken for granted.


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## Imurg (May 22, 2014)

No.
None of them convinced me enough that they would represent me and not use the status as a means of setting themselves up with Directorships and seats on Boards when they finish being an MEP.
So I decided not to increase the chances of any of them getting the job for the next "X" years.....


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2014)

I did indeed!


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## fundy (May 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			No.
None of them convinced me enough that they would represent me and not use the status as a means of setting themselves up with Directorships and seats on Boards when they finish being an MEP.
So I decided not to increase the chances of any of them getting the job for the next "X" years.....
		
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you not have local elections too?


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## 6inchcup (May 22, 2014)

upsidedown said:



			Doing it with HiD later 

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then are you going to vote,i was there at 7 this morning.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2014)

Yes, I voted late this afternoon but fear my hour at the range will prove time better spent than voting for a bunch of lying thieving scumbags!


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## Billythefish (May 22, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Just back. Almost didn't bother but my Dad always told me it was a privilege never to be taken for granted.
		
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Your Dad was correct, in my opinion of course.

Anyone seen the hijacked  twitter tag #whyimvotingukip some crackers on there,

'Because I'm worried black people will start breeding with gay people and we'll create a master race of amazing dancers' 

 'because not even my cats speak English and there's two of them and one of me and I feel marginalised in my own home.'

Quality...


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## Imurg (May 22, 2014)

fundy said:



			you not have local elections too?
		
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Not here.....might have been the same outcome anyway....


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## fundy (May 22, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Not here.....might have been the same outcome anyway....
		
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fair enough, far easier to find someone to vote for than in the european ones it has to be said, protest vote (not ukipt!) there for me


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## Crow (May 22, 2014)

As someone suggested on the radio the other day to those who say "none of the parties represent me"; contact your MP/MEP/local councillor via email, letter or the local surgery, tell them your grievances etc. and ask them what they're doing about it? Do it even if they're not the party you voted for.

Get your friends to do the same, make the people who are representing you know what you think and keep pestering until you get a reply or some action.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 22, 2014)

Yep. Just back. At least now when it's all a mess I know its my mess


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## sev112 (May 22, 2014)

Mrs told me she'd divorce me if I didn't go and cancel out someone's UKIP vote !


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2014)

Nope.. I voted a few weeks ago via postal vote.. Voting is a privilege and I can't remember ever missing one..


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## Alan (May 22, 2014)

Yes voted at tea time, another nail in The Posh boys coffin.


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## CMAC (May 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think if there is a large swing to UKIP in England and Wales it will strengthen the Yes vote in Scotland
		
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how does that correlate?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2014)

CMAC said:



			how does that correlate?

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A lot of Scottish folk are concerned about a coalition of the Tories and the Kippers running the UK.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot of Scottish folk are concerned about a coalition of the Tories and the Kippers running the UK.
		
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That's easily sorted - you lot vote Tory and there will be no need for a coalition !


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## LanDog (May 22, 2014)

I'm voting by proxy at home.

But I didn't feel right voting over here in Leeds, as I'm not really attached to the area as of yet and I'm only a student here so not around full time.

As for UKIP, I just don't understand how people can vote for them, yes they want out of the EU but they also want to do away with maternity leave and think that employers shouldn't have to hire women if they want to have children.

As for the detachment that people have from other politicians because of their public school education, Farage went to Dulwich College which is a public school as well


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## Bigfoot (May 22, 2014)

Yes. I voted early just after the poll station opened. I can't see how I can moan about anything if I can't be bothered to vote.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2014)

LanDog said:



			I'm voting by proxy at home.

But I didn't feel right voting over here in Leeds, as I'm not really attached to the area as of yet and I'm only a student here so not around full time.

As for UKIP, I just don't understand how people can vote for them, yes they want out of the EU but they also want to do away with maternity leave and think that employers shouldn't have to hire women if they want to have children.

As for the detachment that people have from other politicians because of their public school education, Farage went to Dulwich College which is a public school as well
		
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I don't want to get too political but in my 25 years of having my own business (very small one) I would never have contemplated employing a women of child bearing age and I think that view is shared by a large number of small business employers.


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## upsidedown (May 22, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			then are you going to vote,i was there at 7 this morning.
		
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All done.

I know we're pretty rural but that was the first time I've voted in a booth in a gazebo on the drive of a private house !!


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## LanDog (May 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't want to get too political but in my 25 years of having my own business (very small one) I would never have contemplated employing a women of child bearing age and I think that view is shared by a large number of small business employers.
		
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That decision is yours obviously, but do you not think it is sexist?


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## CMAC (May 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't want to get too political but in my 25 years of having my own business (very small one) I would never have contemplated employing a women of child bearing age and I think that view is shared by a large number of small business employers.
		
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you do realise it's not a disease! in fact it's something you as an employer can plan for well in advance.

try planning for an employee being off on a long illness.

where I am we hire the candidate thats right, male or female:thup:


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## williamalex1 (May 22, 2014)

Yes i voted, i like my steak pink.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A lot of Scottish folk are concerned about a coalition of the Tories and the Kippers running the UK.
		
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How would that work when UKIP fail to win a single seat in the next General Election.


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## brendy (May 22, 2014)

Yup I did but for all the actual good it'll do.
Went NI21 this time as they are at least trying to be forward thinking not like the knuckledraggers of every other party here.


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## LanDog (May 22, 2014)

brendy said:



			Yup I did but for all the actual good it'll do.
Went NI21 this time as they are at least trying to be forward thinking not like the knuckledraggers of every other party here.
		
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That's Basil McCrea's party isn't it?


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## CliveW (May 22, 2014)

No I didn't, and it is the first time in years that I haven't. I have no idea who the candidates are or what they are standing for so I couldn't make a decision. All the emphasis here is about the yes/no referendum in September and there has been no canvassing whatsoever. We didn't even get a leaflet through the door.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2014)

Lots of reasons folk put up for not voting - mostly IMO spurious - but I voted because those most likely to vote in these such elections are those with the more extreme views.  And if those of us not of that parish don't vote, then we get the representatives we deserve but who most certainly don't represent us.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2014)

CMAC said:



			you do realise it's not a disease! in fact it's something you as an employer can plan for well in advance.

try planning for an employee being off on a long illness.

where I am we hire the candidate thats right, male or female:thup:
		
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I can't plan for the extra pay she'll cost me, then all the extra time off when one of the kids are sick and the fact she might only return to work for a few weeks before deciding to have another child, then another and then, after taking all the maternity pay, decide not to come back anyway.

I always hired the right candidate, they just always happened to be older men!


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## jp5 (May 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I can't plan for the extra pay she'll cost me, then all the extra time off when one of the kids are sick and the fact she might only return to work for a few weeks before deciding to have another child, then another and then, after taking all the maternity pay, decide not to come back anyway.

I always hired the right candidate, they just always happened to be older men!
		
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Don't worry, I doubt any intelligent women would want to work for you anyway.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't want to get too political but in my 25 years of having my own business (very small one) I would never have contemplated employing a women of child bearing age and I think that view is shared by a large number of small business employers.
		
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Wow, and you unashamedly boast about it on here? As if this discrimination was in some way valid or justified....?


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2014)

I did vote, but was taken aback by the large selection of far right fascist parties on the ballot.

Chrisd would probably have found it hard to choose which one to vote for.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lots of reasons folk put up for not voting - mostly IMO spurious - but I voted because those most likely to vote in these such elections are those with the more extreme views.  And if those of us not of that parish don't vote, then we get the representatives we deserve but who most certainly don't represent us.
		
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So you are the authority on what views are extreme?   Would that be people with a different view to you then.

Regarding UKIP, a lot of people in this country will vote for them, does this mean they are all swivel eyed fruitcakes or people that have genuine concerns for the direction the current politic is taking us?


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 22, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are the authority on what views are extreme?   Would that be people with a different view to you then.

Regarding UKIP, a lot of people in this country will vote for them, does this mean they are all swivel eyed fruitcakes or people that have genuine concerns for the direction the current politic is taking us?
		
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Swivel eyed fruitcakes


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

LanDog said:



			That decision is yours obviously, but do you not think it is sexist?
		
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If it is a matter that is decided by sex then it must be sexist.

Large organisations, especially government employers will have the numbers and resource to deal with these loss of staff.  Small employers and these are the people that employ most people in the country cant always cope with staff taking long periods off work.  This is especially true where employees are highly skilled and part of long term projects in these small companies.  

OK, there is the case that people can become ill and this is a valid argument but you would also be wary of employing someone with a degenerating illness on such projects.  These type of things can destroy a small business and although I understand people feeling groups like Women of child bearing age should not be prejudiced  against I can also understand the problem Employers of small to medium organisations face.


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## brendy (May 23, 2014)

LanDog said:



			That's Basil McCrea's party isn't it?
		
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For now yea! Thing is that so many people vote for one to keep the other out. These guys are a real alternative that if successful over the years could push the 'them and us' parties into the shadows and let us get on with fixing this place rather than only doing what makes them look less bad.


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## LanDog (May 23, 2014)

brendy said:



			For now yea! Thing is that so many people vote for one to keep the other out. These guys are a real alternative that if successful over the years could push the 'them and us' parties into the shadows and let us get on with fixing this place rather than only doing what makes them look less bad.
		
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They remind me of a more radical Alliance in a way, a good friend of mine is standing for council for Alliance in Omagh so he got my vote


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			If it is a matter that is decided by sex then it must be sexist.

Large organisations, especially government employers will have the numbers and resource to deal with these loss of staff.  Small employers and these are the people that employ most people in the country cant always cope with staff taking long periods off work.  This is especially true where employees are highly skilled and part of long term projects in these small companies.  

OK, there is the case that people can become ill and this is a valid argument but you would also be wary of employing someone with a degenerating illness on such projects.  These type of things can destroy a small business and although I understand people feeling groups like Women of child bearing age should not be prejudiced  against I can also understand the problem Employers of small to medium organisations face.
		
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i agree. I wonder if we were all to recall, what percentage of woman, having had children came back to work the exact same role as they had before they left? An employee should be able to employ who they believe is best for the company long term. Maybe that is sexist, but it's also practical. I wonder how many people here would find it odd if men were to take the full paternity and women rush back to work? I bet quite a few, even if they won't admit it, still consider that the woman should be able to work part time as they have a motherly role to play. Surely that's sexist too? Surely it should just be a parental role?


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## drawboy (May 23, 2014)

Hid and I voted yesterday. Voting is a hard won fight for democratic countries like ours. Millions have died worldwide so people can choose who leads their countries. Yes, we all know they are all as bad as each other but what is the alternative? Ruling classes worldwide either born into it, overthrown or voted for  are all the same. They line their own pockets and do not care about the electorate once in power. 
This will never change. Democracies are as bad as Communist states. We are all like Oliver looking in the window while the Beadle feasts and throws scraps at us.
55 million pounds per day is given to Europe. Why? What for? The reason UKIP has done so well is that no one knows the answer and the ruling parties do not want to tell us. UKIP goes beyond racism, yes no doubt there is an elememt of basic rascism in their policies but there is also the desire to blow apart the corruption and money launderring that goes on in Europe with your and my tax deductions.


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I can't plan for the extra pay she'll cost me, then all the extra time off when one of the kids are sick and the fact she might only return to work for a few weeks before deciding to have another child, then another and then, after taking all the maternity pay, decide not to come back anyway.

I always hired the right candidate, they just always happened to be older men!
		
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And not a single Brighton fan among them!


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2014)

I noticed on our ballot form we had a Roman Party. Only had one name against it and no idea what they stood for. I suppose they would get the roads sorted out, and if they pledged to bring back gladiators I would have voted for them without hesitation! (and no, not the tv program before anyone asks!)


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## Beezerk (May 23, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Just about to... and is it safe to say it will be a protest vote - UKIP.
		
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Surprised at you mate, bunch of dangerous buffoons IMO.
Didn't vote myself as it's the same situation as Dave really, Labour round my way with a massive majority so couldn't be bothered.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Don't worry, I doubt any intelligent women would want to work for you anyway.
		
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Like most micro businesses I can't afford the extra costs that some comes from Government policy. 



FairwayDodger said:



			Wow, and you unashamedly boast about it on here? As if this discrimination was in some way valid or justified....?
		
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If you Google " not employing women of child bearing age" you'll see that reports say 25% of companies will follow this policy. It was a fact not a boast. 



FairwayDodger said:



			I did vote, but was taken aback by the large selection of far right fascist parties on the ballot.

Chrisd would probably have found it hard to choose which one to vote for.
		
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I am not in any way far right or a fascist, I have never had more than 6 employees ( usually 5) and have managed to pay everyone their wages,on time every week for 25 years, but the business, particularly during the recession, could not have survived had we had maternity pay to cover as well as the cover staff necessary to run the business.one of my staff had 14 weeks off sick recently and I paid his wages in full every week!

To be fair, I only had the balls to say what a lot of small business employers do.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Like most micro businesses I can't afford the extra costs that some comes from Government policy. 



If you Google " not employing women of child bearing age" you'll see that reports say 25% of companies will follow this policy. It was a fact not a boast. 



I am not in any way far right or a fascist, I have never had more than 6 employees ( usually 5) and have managed to pay everyone their wages,on time every week for 25 years, but the business, particularly during the recession, could not have survived had we had maternity pay to cover as well as the cover staff necessary to run the business.one of my staff had 14 weeks off sick recently and I paid his wages in full every week!

To be fair, I only had the balls to say what a lot of small business employers do.
		
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You know you can reclaim 92% of the SMP paid, yeh?


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Like most micro businesses I can't afford the extra costs that some comes from Government policy. 

If you Google " not employing women of child bearing age" you'll see that reports say 25% of companies will follow this policy. It was a fact not a boast. 

I am not in any way far right or a fascist, I have never had more than 6 employees ( usually 5) and have managed to pay everyone their wages,on time every week for 25 years, but the business, particularly during the recession, could not have survived had we had maternity pay to cover as well as the cover staff necessary to run the business.one of my staff had 14 weeks off sick recently and I paid his wages in full every week!

To be fair, I only had the balls to say what a lot of small business employers do.
		
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You do know you are coming across as a parody of a sexist pig?


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Like most micro businesses I can't afford the extra costs that some comes from Government policy. 



If you Google " not employing women of child bearing age" you'll see that reports say 25% of companies will follow this policy. It was a fact not a boast. 



I am not in any way far right or a fascist, I have never had more than 6 employees ( usually 5) and have managed to pay everyone their wages,on time every week for 25 years, but the business, particularly during the recession, could not have survived had we had maternity pay to cover as well as the cover staff necessary to run the business.one of my staff had 14 weeks off sick recently and I paid his wages in full every week!

To be fair, I only had the balls to say what a lot of small business employers do.
		
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Blatant discrimination, as bad as someone who would refuse to consider a candidate based on their religion or ethnicity. Rationalise it all you like, your excuses are not valid, shame on you.


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You know you can reclaim 92% of the SMP paid, yeh?
		
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I don't think he wants to know! Totally blinkered and ridiculous male chauvinist attitude.

The poster who said any intelligent women wouldn't work for him is spot on!


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I can't plan for the extra pay she'll cost me, then all the extra time off when one of the kids are sick and the fact she might only return to work for a few weeks before deciding to have another child, then another and then, after taking all the maternity pay, decide not to come back anyway.

I always hired the right candidate, they just always happened to be older men!
		
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As I assume (probably correctly) that you didn't even consider a female of child bearing age then you have no idea you hired the right candidate, you hired the right man for you out of a very small pool.

Mind if I ask whats your business? as there is legislation where its legal for certain size business's and areas of expertise to legally discriminate and for reasons I understand.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Like most micro businesses I can't afford the extra costs that some comes from Government policy. 



If you Google " not employing women of child bearing age" you'll see that reports say 25% of companies will follow this policy. It was a fact not a boast. 



I am not in any way far right or a fascist, I have never had more than 6 employees ( usually 5) and have managed to pay everyone their wages,on time every week for 25 years, but the business, particularly during the recession, could not have survived had we had maternity pay to cover as well as the cover staff necessary to run the business.one of my staff had 14 weeks off sick recently and I paid his wages in full every week!

To be fair, I only had the balls to say what a lot of small business employers do.
		
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You also know that many more much more successful businesses than yours have flourished by employing women?  What is the cut off for women of child bearing age then as women have babies into their 40s nowadays.

Call me an idealist but I'd like to live in a world where my young daughter when she grows up has a fair chance of getting a job without being discriminated against for the only reason of being female.  And anyone who doesn't believe that, including UKIP and the others who basically practice politics of fear and whose policies are essentially slightly disguised racism and sexism, can go and do one.  IMHO of course


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## User20205 (May 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do know you are coming across as a parody of a sexist pig?
		
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FairwayDodger said:



			Blatant discrimination, as bad as someone who would refuse to consider a candidate based on their religion or ethnicity. Rationalise it all you like, your excuses are not valid, shame on you.
		
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In Chris' defence, he's not alone in following this policy. I have a couple of friends who privately state the same.

It doesn't make it right, however it's the economic reality of running a small business. 

I'm not sure we can judge and be idealistic until we've tried to balance his books.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			How would that work when UKIP fail to win a single seat in the next General Election.
		
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The Scots will be looking well beyond the next election, big decision to make and we have to think of our grandchildren and beyond.


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

therod said:



			In Chris' defence, he's not alone in following this policy. I have a couple of friends who privately state the same.

It doesn't make it right, however it's the economic reality of running a small business. 

I'm not sure we can judge and be idealistic until we've tried to balance his books.
		
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Not being idealistic and having been on the other side of this you are damn right I'll judge these people as the odious individuals they are!


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

therod said:



			In Chris' defence, he's not alone in following this policy. I have a couple of friends who privately state the same.

It doesn't make it right, however it's the economic reality of running a small business. 

I'm not sure we can judge and be idealistic until we've tried to balance his books.
		
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It's OK to have follow illegal practices by not employing a women for the sole reason that they are a woman then as long as you can justify it by balancing the books?   Again lots if successful business have flourished whilst at the same time employing women.

No one is being idealistic, it's the law, the rules (you know the thing us golfers love to follow or the whole thing falls down apparently) and again I'd like to live in a world where my daughter is judged on her achievements, qualifications and effort she has put in when going for a job.  Not the fact she does not have a penis. And if that is idealistic then so be it.


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

therod said:



*In Chris' defence, he's not alone in following this policy.* I have a couple of friends who privately state the same.

It doesn't make it right, however it's the economic reality of running a small business. 

I'm not sure we can judge and be idealistic until we've tried to balance his books.
		
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I assure you, that's not a defence!!


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

cmac said:



			i assure you, that's not a defence!!
		
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*Like* as they say.


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## User20205 (May 23, 2014)

I can see both arguments, and whilst I'm not a proper dyed red leftie, I definitely occupy left of centre :thup:

I appreciate it's legislation, and for Chris to openly stated he flouts maybe shows questionable judgement

However the reality is this is common practice. Many small business owners see legislation as a barrier to growth, and those that succeed do so despite not because of it.

I wouldn't advocate it simply on basis of depriving access to a large chunk of really talented people. 

Did I vote? No. Do I usually? Yes.


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## User20205 (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			I assure you, that's not a defence!!
		
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It's a defence of the economic argument. The sexism drum that you're banging is a red herring in this case.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You know you can reclaim 92% of the SMP paid, yeh?
		
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But I cant recoup the extra costs of recruiting and training a stand in and still have to pay the 8%



Hacker Khan said:



			You do know you are coming across as a parody of a sexist pig?
		
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You call it sexist, I call it economic realism - with the extra overheads, the business could fail and we'd all be out of work, I didn't much like that alternative



FairwayDodger said:



			Blatant discrimination, as bad as someone who would refuse to consider a candidate based on their religion or ethnicity. Rationalise it all you like, your excuses are not valid, shame on you.
		
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It's not but the same thing at all. When recruiting, all businesses, big and small, differentiate between the candidates and employ on the suitability of the candidate to their (the employers) needs. I have made no excuses but given reasons.




CMAC said:



			I don't think he wants to know! Totally blinkered and ridiculous male chauvinist attitude.
		
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Do you run your own business? 



CMAC said:



			As I assume (probably correctly) that you didn't even consider a female of child bearing age then you have no idea you hired the right candidate, you hired the right man for you out of a very small pool.
		
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I've rarely been dissatisfied with the staff I've employed and only ever sacked one person, so I'm happy that the right man who was available has done a good job and, in fact, have never had a female applicant



therod said:



			In Chris' defence, he's not alone in following this policy. I have a couple of friends who privately state the same.

It doesn't make it right, however it's the economic reality of running a small business. 

I'm not sure we can judge and be idealistic until we've tried to balance his books.
		
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I agree that the 25% of firms who appear to adopt this policy aren't right, but, successive governments pile on crippling legislation that cost firm huge sums in red tape and add to costs. Micro firms, many of whom are just starting out now with the recession finishing should be exempt from much of this additional cost.

 It's so easy to be an idealist when your not trying to run a business and keep 5 or 6 families in employment


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

therod said:



			It's a defence of the economic argument. The sexism drum that you're banging is a red herring in this case.
		
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no its a defence of the 'haven't thought it through properly' argument. The drum that your banging is at the head of a group of villagers with pitchforks and torches!


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			As I assume (probably correctly) that you didn't even consider a female of child bearing age then you have no idea you hired the right candidate, you hired the right man for you out of a very small pool.

*Mind if I ask whats your business? as there is legislation where its legal for certain size business's and areas of expertise to legally discriminate and for reasons I understand*.
		
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there are 'get out of jail free cards' depending on your business?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do know you are coming across as a parody of a sexist pig?
		
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You are coming across as a blinkered left wing activist.  You use the traditional socialist method of throwing insults rather than debate and reason.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are the authority on what views are extreme?   Would that be people with a different view to you then.

Regarding UKIP, a lot of people in this country will vote for them, does this mean they are all swivel eyed fruitcakes or people that have genuine concerns for the direction the current politic is taking us?
		
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If you get elected those with extreme views then by definition those elected do not represent the views of the majority - because if they were representative then they wouldn't be extreme views.  And I am not thinking of anything specific when I say 'extreme' views.  This is only an observation about voting in general.


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Just back. Almost didn't bother but my Dad always told me it was a privilege never to be taken for granted.
		
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So very true , our voting is today over here , i always vote , i have no faith in most of the clowns , but when you vote you have a right to voice an opinion , even if you vote for someone who will never get in , you can honestly say i tried to change it so i will voice my disapproval of what they are doing .. 

I think alot of people dont value their right to vote , there are countries over the world fighting for the right to, 
people in Afghanastan [sp] que'd among shooting and bombings for a chance to change their destiny .. 

Maybe we all just take it for granted :rant:


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## User20205 (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			no its a defence of the 'haven't thought it through properly' argument. The drum that your banging is at the head of a group of villagers with pitchforks and torches!
		
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Really?? There was me thinking it was empathetic !

Surely attempting to understand is the direct opposite of image you portray.

I don't necessarily agree, but can see his point of view. That's a lot more helpful in the reference of the OP than your Mary Shelley allegory:thup:


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Blatant discrimination, as bad as someone who would refuse to consider a candidate based on their religion or ethnicity. Rationalise it all you like, your excuses are not valid, shame on you.
		
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For the record  I do agree with you 100% Karen.. but do you think its not the truth ?

Chris where i agree its wrong i do see your point and i say fair play for saying it , its easy to NOT say it and tip along in a comfy conversation . so being honest is respected


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you get elected those with extreme views then by definition those elected do not represent the views of the majority - because if they were representative then they wouldn't be extreme views.  And I am not thinking of anything specific when I say 'extreme' views.  This is only an observation about voting in general.
		
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You'll have to explain the above in language I can understand...


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2014)

LanDog said:



			That decision is yours obviously, but do you not think it is sexist?
		
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Might well be Cian but in reality there are alot of small business doing the same .. Chris has to put the best interests of his business and his familys future first .. is it right ? maybe not, probably not , well no its not .. in a politicaly correct world .. 

but i will say to all the people its easy to be judgemental when you dont have to be the one making the decision ..


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			It's not but the same thing at all. When recruiting, all businesses, big and small, differentiate between the candidates and employ on the suitability of the candidate to their (the employers) needs. I have made no excuses but given reasons.
		
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It is exactly the same thing. Yes, you need to evaluate the suitability of each candidate but certain criteria are not relevant and cannot legally be used to discriminate; race, religion, sexuality and gender.

Chris, you're in a hole - please stop digging. I am so angry not just that I know this goes on but that you feel so little concern about it that you're happy to come on here and boast about it.


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

therod said:



			Really?? There was me thinking it was empathetic !

*Surely attempting to understand* is the direct opposite of image you portray.

I don't necessarily agree, but can see his point of view. That's a lot more helpful in the reference of the OP than your Mary Shelley allegory:thup:
		
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you weren't- reread your post


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2014)

Interesting that Chris employs mature men but not mature women. Tends to weaken his argument.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			You'll have to explain the above in language I can understand...
		
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If someone with extreme views gets elected than they cannot represent the majority - because if they did represent the majority then the views wouldn't be considered extreme.  If those supporting extreme views are motivated to vote, then apathy among the majority risks getting elected those holding the extreme views.  That is why I think it important to vote.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Chris, you're in a hole - please stop digging. I am so angry not just that I know this goes on but that you feel so little concern about it that you're happy to come on here and boast about it.
		
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Whilst I'm fully on your side with this argument, the one thing I would say for Chris is that to me, it doesn't seem like he is "boasting" about it. He has put forward his opinion, which is directly relevant to some of the political parties polices. He has so far been quite good about answering the replies genuinely and politely, which seems quite rare for an internet debate!


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If someone with extreme views gets elected than they cannot represent the majority - because if they did represent the majority then the views wouldn't be considered extreme.  If those supporting extreme views are motivated to vote, then apathy among the majority risks getting elected those holding the extreme views.  That is why I think it important to vote.
		
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If only more of the population realised this.


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If someone with extreme views gets elected than they cannot represent the majority - because if they did represent the majority then the views wouldn't be considered extreme.  If those supporting extreme views are motivated to vote, then apathy among the majority risks getting elected those holding the extreme views.  That is why I think it important to vote.
		
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But what are the views of the apathetic that didn't vote? And how does someone with extreme views get elected?

I appreciate that in a 3 horse race, 1 could poll 40%, and the other 2 could get 30%. They may not get a majority of the votes available but they have the most support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			If only more of the population realised this.
		
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And so even although I voted for a 'mainstream' candidate with not a cats chance in hell of winning I voted according to my beliefs and to reduce (albeit only by a tiny amount) the % of the vote that the UKIP candidate got.


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			If only more of the population realised this.
		
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Or if the major parties better reflected what a majority want.


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			It's so easy to be an idealist when your not trying to run a business and keep 5 or 6 families in employment
		
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And here is the crux of the matter. How many of you people jumping on the sexism bandwagon run your own company with peoples livelihoods at stake? It may not be the most desirable situation, but its reality. Chris has to do what is right for his business and his employees. If the risk of taking on the wrong person is such that it could cause the business to fail then he doesn't really have a choice!


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			For the record  I do agree with you 100% Karen.. but do you think its not the truth ?

Chris where i agree its wrong i do see your point and i say fair play for saying it , its easy to NOT say it and tip along in a comfy conversation . so being honest is respected
		
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To be fair Blade I agree with everyone who says that any discrimination in the workplace, or anywhere else, is wrong and when the government legislate that, not employing someone solely on the grounds of race, colour, sex etc is wrong, both morally and legally I'm 100% with that. 

The problem really is that the government of the day has bought in so much legislation that makes life for the micro business so hard is that it invariably adds to overhead costs, but adds nothing by way of extra revenue, thus forcing decisions that will keep those costs down often for survival. I have never been in a position to employ a female and therefore haven't ever put in to practice this view but I know that many many employers do actively do so and the reports are about 25% of employers do

Morally I know Karen is right but I doubt (but don't know) whether Karen has been responsible for ensuring something like 20 different families over 25 years have relied on her business to make a profit and to be able to help pay their mortgages, food bills and their kids clothes etc and having fought through two major recessions in a very competitive world. I don't expect thanks for that but am proud to have achieved it - sadly I haven't come out wealthy at the other end!  I do, however, object to her labelling me as "odious" just for stating a position that I feel economics pushed me to do and not choice.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			But what are the views of the apathetic that didn't vote? And how does someone with extreme views get elected?

I appreciate that in a 3 horse race, 1 could poll 40%, and the other 2 could get 30%. They may not get a majority of the votes available but they have the most support.
		
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I'm reading it as SILH looking at the basis of the word "extreme". If 60% of the population don't believe it, then it could be considered "extreme". If 60% of the population *do* believe it, then it cannot be extreme, as it's actually the majority view.


I think.


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

SaintHacker said:



			And here is the crux of the matter. How many of you people jumping on the sexism bandwagon run your own company with peoples livelihoods at stake? It may not be the most desirable situation, but its reality. Chris has to do what is right for his business and his employees. If the risk of taking on the wrong person is such that it could *cause the business to fail then he doesn't really have a choice*!
		
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you're missing the point and the facts! Chris knows it only costs him 8% of that persons salary yet you and he allude to the fact the business could go under! Yet Chris also states he paid an employee 14 weeks full pay when off sick (very admirable and right imo)  think you'll find that equates to far more than 8% and couldn't be planned for, with pregnancies you have time to plan and make contingencies, something any good business does on a weekly/monthly basis.

Not running your own company doesn't make peoples opinion and knowledge less important or relevant


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so even although I voted for a 'mainstream' candidate with not a cats chance in hell of winning I voted according to my beliefs and to reduce (albeit only by a tiny amount) the % of the vote that the UKIP candidate got.
		
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Goodness UKIP candidates elected in Farnham in leafy Surrey.
Looks like I will have to vote for Scottish independence now!


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness UKIP candidates elected in Farnham in leafy Surrey.
Looks like I will have to vote for Scottish independence now!
		
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If UKIP do get in power, somehow, have you got any extra room up in Scotland? I can try and bring the sun with me....


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			you're missing the point and the facts! Chris knows it only costs him 8% of that persons salary yet you and he allude to the fact the business could go under! Yet Chris also states he paid an employee 14 weeks full pay when off sick (very admirable and right imo)  think you'll find that equates to far more than 8%.

Not running your own company doesn't make peoples opinion and knowledge less important or relevant
		
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It does when the don't read all the facts as you've totally ignored the cost of recruiting and training of someone to cover the person on maternity leave.

 I paid all my staff full sick pay as I valued them, the 14 weeks was just the longest, but it was a budgeted cost that I provided for.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You are coming across as a blinkered left wing activist.  You use the traditional socialist method of throwing insults rather than debate and reason.
		
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You have a daughter?  How about the debate being _'Can you go tell her that no matter how much hard work and effort she puts into bettering herself, she may well not get employed purely because of her sex and and because there is a chance she will have a baby_'?  And if that's a socialist left wing activist argument instead of a morally right argument in anyone's world then so be it.

I am sure that there are lots of red tape and legislation that is putting a burden on businesses and that some of it should go. But lumping what I would call a basic human right of a person to be chosen on their ability rather than their sex together with other legislation is in my opinion morally and legally wrong.  I will state again many many very successful business employ women.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting that Chris employs mature men but not mature women. Tends to weaken his argument.
		
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I have stated that no women have ever applied for any vacancy mature or otherwise at any time


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness UKIP candidates elected in Farnham in leafy Surrey.
Looks like I will have to vote for Scottish independence now!
		
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I don't think so - South-West Surrey is a Tory redoubt with Virginia Bottomley MP and now Jeremy Hunt.  Lib-Dems pushed Tories close for two gen elections before last.  But I've seen and heard quite a bit of UKIP activity hereabouts recently (the UKIP public meetings in our church hall were very well supported) so it wouldn't surprise me if they did pretty well yesterday.


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## Snelly (May 23, 2014)

I think there are some really poor comments directed at Chris on this thread.  

I employ 15 staff, both men and women and I understand entirely where he is coming from.  

To clarify, I tend to positively discriminate and look to bring women in to roles when I can as my view is that women think and work differently to men and often give me a fresh perspective on issues and strategies.   Ideally, I want as close to a 50/50 balance between men and women in the company as I can realistically get to.   

That said, if a female candidate came for a job with us and was 29, been married 2 years and just bought a new house and had not got children, then I am afraid to say that the high chance of her starting a family imminently would be a factor that I would privately consider.    It may be sexist, it may be illiberal and it may be flouting employment legislation.  However, it is also basic common sense for any small business and furthermore, my (female) HR consultant also regularly raises this as a possible red flag when it fits the circumstances. 

I appreciate that it isn't what the liberal left of the forum want to hear but hard lines. Your protestations just illustrate that you can't see the other side of the argument. 

As ever, that is the trouble with liberals - they are only liberal if you agree entirely with their views and if you don't, you are a fascist pig and a disgusting human being.    

And lastly, returning to the original question - no I did not vote. Just like 65% of the apathetic population.  Two reasons - I have very little faith in our political system and the free-loading clowns within it plus, where I live, the Tories have a majority of 24000 and there is no candidate from any left of centre party so it is a done deal anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I paid all my staff full sick pay as I valued them, the 14 weeks was just the longest, but it was a budgeted cost that I provided for.
		
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..and that seems to me a heck of a commitment to your employees as I am sure that you didn't have to.


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Blade I agree with everyone who says that any discrimination in the workplace, or anywhere else, is wrong and when the government legislate that, not employing someone solely on the grounds of race, colour, sex etc is wrong, both morally and legally I'm 100% with that. 

The problem really is that the government of the day has bought in so much legislation that makes life for the micro business so hard is that it invariably adds to overhead costs, but adds nothing by way of extra revenue, thus forcing decisions that will keep those costs down often for survival. I have never been in a position to employ a female and therefore haven't ever put in to practice this view but I know that many many employers do actively do so and the reports are about 25% of employers do

Morally I know Karen is right but I doubt (but don't know) whether Karen has been responsible for ensuring something like 20 different families over 25 years have relied on her business to make a profit and to be able to help pay their mortgages, food bills and their kids clothes etc and having fought through two major recessions in a very competitive world. I don't expect thanks for that but am proud to have achieved it - sadly I haven't come out wealthy at the other end!  I do, however, object to her labelling me as "odious" just for stating a position that I feel economics pushed me to do and not choice.
		
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So, if I read this rightly, you agree such discrimination is wrong but you would practice it; adding hypocrisy into the mix.

No, I've never employed anyone but I have needed to find work to support myself. I've applied for jobs where I ticked every box in the description but didn't even get invited to interview and you're left wondering why, whether you've been discriminated against.

Frankly, if 25% of employers are still getting away with this we need more, stronger legislation to crack down on unscrupulous businesses, not less!

No apologies for using the word "odious", that's my opinion on the subject.


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			It is exactly the same thing. Yes, you need to evaluate the suitability of each candidate but certain criteria are not relevant and cannot legally be used to discriminate; race, religion, sexuality and gender.

Chris, you're in a hole - please stop digging. I am so angry not just that I know this goes on but that you feel so little concern about it that you're happy to come on here and boast about it.
		
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This goes on EVERYWHERE! My sister in law is a head teacher and has openly admitted that the school have an ideal ratio for male to female teachers. So they will generally employ a candidate based on sex as long as they appear adequate. 

And nd it happens both ways, just because he's being honest doesn't make him a sexist biggot. He hasn't said that male candidates are better or that women aren't up to task, just that he needs a more constant regular employee. As for bringing race or religion into it. That's just trying too hard to make him look bad.


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



you're missing the point and the facts! Chris knows it only costs him 8% of that persons salary yet you and he allude to the fact the business could go under! Yet Chris also states he paid an employee 14 weeks full pay when off sick (very admirable and right imo)  think you'll find that equates to far more than 8% and couldn't be planned for, with pregnancies you have time to plan and make contingencies, something any good business does on a weekly/monthly basis.

Not running your own company doesn't make peoples opinion and knowledge less important or relevant
		
Click to expand...

You are missing some yourself mate , there is alot of upheavel in a small business when a member of staff is out , ok sickness cant be helped  , but if you hired someone who chose to have 3 children in a few years , how does your business cope with that ..

Again as i said to all i might not agree with it but i see Chris's point and if i was in his position i could imagine i would be as selective in my recruitment as Chris was ..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I think there are some really poor comments directed at Chris on this thread.  

I employ 15 staff, both men and women and I understand entirely where he is coming from.  

To clarify, I tend to positively discriminate and look to bring women in to roles when I can as my view is that women think and work differently to men and often give me a fresh perspective on issues and strategies.   Ideally, I want as close to a 50/50 balance between men and women in the company as I can realistically get to.   

That said, if a female candidate came for a job with us and was 29, been married 2 years and just bought a new house and had not got children, then I am afraid to say that the high chance of her starting a family imminently would be a factor that I would privately consider.    It may be sexist, it may be illiberal and it may be flouting employment legislation.  However, it is also basic common sense for any small business and furthermore, my (female) HR consultant also regularly raises this as a possible red flag when it fits the circumstances. 

I appreciate that it isn't what the liberal left of the forum want to hear but hard lines. Your protestations just illustrate that you can't see the other side of the argument. 

As ever, that is the trouble with liberals - they are only liberal if you agree entirely with their views and if you don't, you are a fascist pig and a disgusting human being.    

And lastly, returning to the original question - no I did not vote. Just like 65% of the apathetic population.  Two reasons - I have very little faith in our political system and the free-loading clowns within it plus, where I live, the Tories have a majority of 24000 and there is no candidate from any left of centre party so it is a done deal anyway.
		
Click to expand...

..and flipping the coin over for a moment.

I had a boss who kept a list of everyone in his department.  When I was less than three years in the company, young, single and living in rented - I was top of his 'to be looked after' list and so targeted for good projects, travel, wage rises etc.  

As I got older and was with them a little longer I slipped down the list; bought a flat - slipped down the list; got married - slipped down the list; had children - slipped down the list; children went to school - down the list.  This was only his 'who I need to look after etc' list but I was being discriminated against.  As it happens I was well looked after - but the list was there.


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			You are missing some yourself mate , there is alot of upheavel in a small business when a member of staff is out , ok sickness cant be helped  , but if you hired someone who chose to have 3 children in a few years , how does your business cope with that ..

Again as i said to all i might not agree with it but i see Chris's point and if i was in his position i could imagine i would be as selective in my recruitment as Chris was ..
		
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you really dont get it do you, you cannot or will not see the bigger picture. Care to elaborate what I am missing?


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## MegaSteve (May 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would call a basic human right of a person to be chosen on their ability rather than their sex together with other legislation is in my opinion morally and legally wrong.
		
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So, how come women only shortlists are [seemingly] OK?


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## Snelly (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and flipping the coin over for a moment.

I had a boss who kept a list of everyone in his department.  When I was less than three years in the company, young, single and living in rented - I was top of his 'to be looked after' list and so targeted for good projects, travel, wage rises etc.  

As I got older and was with them a little longer I slipped down the list; bought a flat - slipped down the list; got married - slipped down the list; had children - slipped down the list; children went to school - down the list.  This was only his 'who I need to look after etc' list but I was being discriminated against.  As it happens I was well looked after - but the list was there.
		
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Fascinating.   As it happens, I don't have a "list" and the idea sounds pretty daft.   

We look after everyone and everyone is a shareholder.  Our staff turnover is next to zero with over 75% of the team being with us for over 5 years.  We have a fantastic company with wonderful, highly rewarded employees.  We are great.  But we'd still think twice about the child bearing issue for potential new hires.


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			you're missing the point and the facts! Chris knows it only costs him 8% of that persons salary yet you and he allude to the fact the business could go under! Yet Chris also states he paid an employee 14 weeks full pay when off sick (very admirable and right imo)  think you'll find that equates to far more than 8% and couldn't be planned for, with pregnancies you have time to plan and make contingencies, something any good business does on a weekly/monthly basis.

Not running your own company doesn't make peoples opinion and knowledge less important or relevant
		
Click to expand...

How much time and money does it cost to cover said women whilst she's on leave? Maybe take on agency workers who don't know how to do the job. Putting everyone in jeopardy. What about when she decides she's not coming back to work full time. Which a lot of women do? He's then lost an employee he has spent time on training and has to try and fill the extra hours too.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			So, if I read this rightly, you agree such discrimination is wrong but you would practice it; adding hypocrisy into the mix.

No, I've never employed anyone but I have needed to find work to support myself. I've applied for jobs where I ticked every box in the description but didn't even get invited to interview and you're left wondering why, whether you've been discriminated against.

Frankly, if 25% of employers are still getting away with this we need more, stronger legislation to crack down on unscrupulous businesses, not less!

No apologies for using the word "odious", that's my opinion on the subject.
		
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I don't hold myself up as being a paragon of virtue Karen and life is all very good from a purely a moral standpoint. It's great that you can criticise me so strongly, from afar without knowing me, for making just one point that we will have to disagree on. Its just a shame that that you don't start your own business, risk everything you own and hold dear, and see whether you still hold the same ideological values.


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## bladeplayer (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			you really dont get it do you, you cannot or will not see the bigger picture. Care to elaborate what I am missing?
		
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IM a bit con fused now ? as basically i was agreeing with you!   i think its you that cant see the BIG picture 

I do get it and i have admitted its wrong  to be discriminated against in any way, i dont or cant disagree with you or anyone on that 

 ,BUT  i also know its a realism , people running small business are at the pin of their collars trying to survive , if you or anyone on here  think for a second any small business person will put morally correct decisions over financially correct decisions for their business and family then you are living in a fantasy world (no offence meant)

Its a dog eat dog world out there and millions of businesses are doing things that may not be right to survive ,

I told Chris i didnt agree with it, but i also admitted i respect his honesty and if i was in his position i hand on heart cannnot say i wouldnt do the very same .. 

If that makes me wrong so be it ..


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## jp5 (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			How much time and money does it cost to cover said women whilst she's on leave? Maybe take on agency workers who don't know how to do the job. Putting everyone in jeopardy. What about when she decides she's not coming back to work full time. Which a lot of women do? He's then lost an employee he has spent time on training and has to try and fill the extra hours too.
		
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Way to tar all women with the actions of a few. I'd wager a woman taking maternity leave would be less disruptive than the poor bloke who's been off sick for 3 months. Perhaps he should be let go?


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I think there are some really poor comments directed at Chris on this thread.  

I employ 15 staff, both men and women and I understand entirely where he is coming from.  

To clarify, I tend to positively discriminate and look to bring women in to roles when I can as my view is that women think and work differently to men and often give me a fresh perspective on issues and strategies.   Ideally, I want as close to a 50/50 balance between men and women in the company as I can realistically get to.   

That said, if a female candidate came for a job with us and was 29, been married 2 years and just bought a new house and had not got children, then I am afraid to say that the high chance of her starting a family imminently would be a factor that I would privately consider.    It may be sexist, it may be illiberal and it may be flouting employment legislation.  However, it is also basic common sense for any small business and furthermore, my (female) HR consultant also regularly raises this as a possible red flag when it fits the circumstances. 

*I appreciate that it isn't what the liberal left of the forum want to hear but hard lines. Your protestations just illustrate that you can't see the other side of the argument. *

As ever, that is the trouble with liberals - they are only liberal if you agree entirely with their views and if you don't, you are a fascist pig and a disgusting human being.    

And lastly, returning to the original question - no I did not vote. Just like 65% of the apathetic population.  Two reasons - I have very little faith in our political system and the free-loading clowns within it plus, where I live, the Tories have a majority of 24000 and there is no candidate from any left of centre party so it is a done deal anyway.
		
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big leap as I'm not liberal and I don't think you see the other side either. There is well documented evidence of the benefits both short and long term for the business in handling pregnancy the correct and fair way. Sales is one area a business can reap greater definitive rewards in 'looking after' an employee, other disciplines are harder to directly associate a monetary value but it can be done.

There are also different views from Owner Managers as opposed to 'Supervisors' of staff where the whole company name and reputation isn't so intrinsically linked.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Way to tar all women with the actions of a few. I'd wager a woman taking maternity leave would be less disruptive than the poor bloke who's been off sick for 3 months. Perhaps he should be let go?
		
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Yes, perhaps he should


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Way to tar all women with the actions of a few. I'd wager a woman taking maternity leave would be less disruptive than the poor bloke who's been off sick for 3 months. Perhaps he should be let go?
		
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Tar a few? Really? in the last 4 years me and my wife have had our two little girls. They now go to groups and play schools. Do you know how many if the mums now working, having done so before hand. 3, my wide included. That is out if 25 couples. That's much more than a few. Career woman will go back to work, but more than a majority in my experience won't go back to the role they left. It should be the duty of a company to bend for people IMO. My wife is a cinema manager and they have a very good package where by if you sign up to it, you get a great maternity package but must come back to your previous role for 1 year or repay the extra payment. It's taken up less than 10%. 

I fully support Chris on this one. It's all well and good wanting an ideal world, but it doesn't exist. Walk into any high end wine bar and tell me how many interactive people are working. Companies will always employ whose best for them, some just won't admit it. 

And yes I am happy for my daughters to grow up in a world like this, as I hope they'll have a work ethic like their parents and having children won't be an excuse to stop working like many and not a few do!


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## Snelly (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			big leap as I'm not liberal and I don't think you see the other side either. There is well documented evidence of the benefits both short and long term for the business in handling pregnancy the correct and fair way. Sales is one area a business can reap greater definitive rewards in 'looking after' an employee, other disciplines are harder to directly associate a monetary value but it can be done.

There are also different views from Owner Managers as opposed to 'Supervisors' of staff where the whole company name and reputation isn't so intrinsically linked.
		
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I have two children and my wife works so yes, I do fully appreciate both sides of the argument.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Yes, perhaps he should
		
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Haha. That would make me laugh. Imagine that dismisal. 

Chrisd: "I'm sorry XXXX, but I'm going to have to let you go"

XXXX: "Why?!"

Chrisd: "Well you remember those 14 weeks sick you had? Some people on the internet disagreed with my stance on hiring women, this got brought up, and it turns out I need to fire you. Sorry."


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Haha. That would make me laugh. Imagine that dismisal. 

Chrisd: "I'm sorry XXXX, but I'm going to have to let you go"

XXXX: "Why?!"

Chrisd: "Well you remember those 14 weeks sick you had? Some people on the internet disagreed with my stance on hiring women, this got brought up, and it turns out I need to fire you. Sorry."
		
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as long as he's replaced my an attractive religious lesbian female of non British race,that's fine by me. Gotta make sure there's no discrimination.


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## guest100718 (May 23, 2014)

No I didnt vote as its a waste of time where I live.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Haha. That would make me laugh. Imagine that dismisal. 

Chrisd: "I'm sorry XXXX, but I'm going to have to let you go"

XXXX: "Why?!"

Chrisd: "Well you remember those 14 weeks sick you had? Some people on the internet disagreed with my stance on hiring women, this got brought up, and it turns out I need to fire you. Sorry."
		
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Just to make you chuckle ...... I have dismissed him!


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## G.U.R (May 23, 2014)

:mmm: Back to the thread, no I didn't never have as I've never ben into politics and live in an area where there is no risk of any extremist party's getting in, and the rest are all as bad as each other.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Just to make you chuckle ...... I have dismissed him!
		
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I hope jp5 feels guilty now!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			No I didnt vote as its a waste of time where I live.
		
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Why is a waste of time? Your vote will always affect the %s - even if only in a small way.  If everyone who thought that way actually voted then things might well be different. Doing nothing guarantees that nothing will happen.  

Besides - what effort does it actually take to get to the polling station and cast your vote.  And then you have legitimate 'active elector' basis for going to elected representatives and having a go - if that is what you need to do.


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't hold myself up as being a paragon of virtue Karen and life is all very good from a purely a moral standpoint. It's great that you can criticise me so strongly, from afar without knowing me, for making just one point that we will have to disagree on. Its just a shame that that you don't start your own business, risk everything you own and hold dear, and see whether you still hold the same ideological values.
		
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I'm usually someone who sees all the shades of grey in any debate. It tends to make me very bad at arguing. Of course, while you seemingly fail to appreciate its misconceptions, I understand the apparent practicalities of your position. But, in this instance, when I have undoubtedly been a victim of exactly the type of discrimination you espouse I am unable to do anything other than condemn you wholeheartedly. 

Just to square the "walk in the others shoes" circle, perhaps if you had ever been discriminated against you'd understand why your comments provoked such a strong reaction.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

G.U.R said:



			:mmm: Back to the thread, no I didn't never have as I've never ben into politics and live in an area where there is no risk of any extremist party's getting in, and the rest are all as bad as each other.
		
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Why do you think they are all as bad as each other - do you know all the candidates?  Or are you just jumping on that particular bandwagon?  And if the candidates you have to chose between are indeed a bunch of unprincipled, self-seeking rascals then why don't you try and do anything about it. The truth is that you can't be bothered - a not unusual position these days it seems and maybe I also couldn't be bothered.   But whenever and wherever there is change it takes someone to decide to do something about it.  These days we are very good at looking around ourselves for that person without ever accepting that it could be ourselves.

btw - not getting at you in particular - but the 'they are all the same' justification for not voting really bugs me


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## jp5 (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			And yes I am happy for my daughters to grow up in a world like this, as I hope they'll have a work ethic like their parents and having children won't be an excuse to stop working like many and not a few do!
		
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I'm sure your daughters will relish the opportunity to compete on an uneven playing field thanks purely to their gender and age :thup:


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## G.U.R (May 23, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do you think they are all as bad as each other - do you know all the candidates?  Or are you just jumping on that particular bandwagon?  And if the candidates you have to chose between are indeed a bunch of unprincipled, self-seeking rascals then why don't you try and do anything about it. The truth is that you can't be bothered - a not unusual position these days it seems and maybe I also couldn't be bothered.   But whenever and wherever there is change it takes someone to decide to do something about it.  These days we are very good at looking around ourselves for that person without ever accepting that it could be ourselves.

btw - not getting at you in particular - but the 'they are all the same' justification for not voting really bugs me
		
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Nope you make a fair point against my "can't be arsed" throw away comment. they probably aren't the same. Living in West Berkshire the candidates either own half the land round here OR resent the chap that owns half the land round here OR feels it's fair for him to own half the land round here but feels he could do more for the community with it. As I said I don't have a political bone in my body so should have just stuck with "couldn't be arsed".


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm usually someone who sees all the shades of grey in any debate. It tends to make me very bad at arguing. Of course, while you seemingly fail to appreciate its misconceptions, I understand the apparent practicalities of your position. But, in this instance, when I have undoubtedly been a victim of exactly the type of discrimination you espouse I am unable to do anything other than condemn you wholeheartedly. 

Just to square the "walk in the others shoes" circle, perhaps if you had ever been discriminated against you'd understand why your comments provoked such a strong reaction.
		
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I hope Karen that I've proven that I see the misconceptions, but circumstance, as Snelly has also posted, make the law an ass in certain circumstances. I have been discriminated against, I'm sure most of us have, selection processes in all walks of life are apt to do that but most times you'll never be told of the discrimination so you cant be sure its happened and, because I'm a lot older than you, nothing was illegal anyway back in the dark ages. 

If I owned a big business that could carry the burden of the maternity regulations easier I would budget for it, and follow it, but that isn't the case. I still feel that the use of "odious" is just completely unacceptable and assure you that more legislation, like you advocate, will just not work, employers will always look to save the business first after all its us who lose everything if it goes down.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			And yes I am happy for my daughters to grow up in a world like this, as I hope they'll have a work ethic like their parents and having children won't be an excuse to stop working like many and not a few do!
		
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I suspect their work ethic will mean bugger all if they can't get a job in the first place.  The discussion was around discrimination in recruitment, you can't really exhibit a great work ethic if you are not being considered for the job in the first place.  That was kind of some peoples point, people should be recruited on their work ethic and other factors, not just their sex.

Also are they allowed a day off to have their baby?


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I hope jp5 feels guilty now!
		
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Just so as he doesn't feel too guilty, the reason that I dismissed him was that I am closing my business and retiring. I paid him 14 weeks sick pay and then his full redundancy package.

He was happy, I'm happy!


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

Snelly said:



			I have two children and my wife works so yes, I do *fully* appreciate both sides of the argument.
		
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but as has been said by many on here only an owner manager can fully appreciate one side so not quite 'fully'


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## CMAC (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I hope Karen that I've proven that I see the misconceptions, *but circumstance, as Snelly has also posted, make the law an ass* in certain circumstances. I have been discriminated against, I'm sure most of us have, selection processes in all walks of life are apt to do that but most times you'll never be told of the discrimination so you cant be sure its happened and, because I'm a lot older than you, nothing was illegal anyway back in the dark ages. 

If I owned a big business that could carry the burden of the maternity regulations easier I would budget for it, and follow it, but that isn't the case. I still feel that the use of "odious" is just completely unacceptable and assure you that more legislation, like you advocate, will just not work, employers will always look to save the business first after all its us who lose everything if it goes down.
		
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neither of you posted such definitive postings


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			neither of you posted such definitive postings
		
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Read the posts how you like, but if 25% of businesses don't consider employing women of child bearing age, then I'd think that the law is an ass.


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## jp5 (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Just so as he doesn't feel too guilty, the reason that I dismissed him was that I am closing my business and retiring. I paid him 14 weeks sick pay and then his full redundancy package.

He was happy, I'm happy!
		
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I'll sleep easier tonight :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

Chris we're going to have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I don't know the ins and outs of the legislation but, while it may be onerous, one can assume that it has been considered from all angles, debated, voted on, and subsequently argued in court until it evolved to where it is now with the aim of striking the right balance between employers and workers. Clearly, that balance isn't where you would like it to be and you're perfectly entitled to express the opinion that it's wrong and to campaign to change it but not to openly flout it. Doesn't make you a bad person, necessarily, but we're definitely on opposite sides of this fence.


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## Papas1982 (May 23, 2014)

I wonder if all the people on here outraged, have ever mocked a friend for having a shandy, or not getting past the red tees? 

Women in the work place have massive rights these days. I don't think an employee should need to be held accountable for when they go on leave. If all women agreed to come back fully then I would support it. But as I've said, many take fully maternity packages at the companies expense and then leave.


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Read the posts how you like, but if 25% of businesses don't consider employing women of child bearing age, then I'd think that the law is an ass.
		
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One wonders what proportion wouldn't employ them, or would dismiss them when they became pregnant, if there was no legislation in this area.


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## User20205 (May 23, 2014)

CMAC said:



			neither of you posted such definitive postings
		
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The law is an ass if it's continually flouted, and, in real terms, acts a barrier to enterprise.

It's maybe a moot point, as my understanding is that maternity/paternity law has changed.
Maybe blokes of 'baby producing' age will be also discrimated against.  Can't they also take extended leave now?


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			But as I've said, many take fully maternity packages at the companies expense and then leave.
		
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And many don't but that's a valid reason to discriminate against all women whether they ever become mothers or not?


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I wonder if all the people on here outraged, have ever mocked a friend for having a shandy, or not getting past the red tees?
		
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I'm not 100% sure what these have to do with either voting, or maternity pay? 

Also, when you talk about "companies expense", the direct cost to the company is 8% of SMP. This is Â£11 a week, for much of the maternity leave.

And the other costs,  recruitment and such like, are indirect, and could potentially have to be incurred anyway, whenever anyone leaves. 

I'm not going to argue with chrisd about whether his business could afford it, it;s none of my business, and he knows his company a lot better than I, but all this talk of the companies expense is a bit much. Do you forget the times the employee is working for the company and contributing to the profit? Or stays late and doesn't get paid overtime? That all comes at the employees expense.


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## Old Skier (May 23, 2014)

It's no wonder our politics are in such a mess when on a small forum like this there appear to be so many who cannot be arrsed to vote. You deserve the politicians you get IMO. The political class love it when people don't vote, it gives them a job for life.

As the thread has gone way off, I know a public sector employer in my arear where male applicants don't get a look in on the many admin jobs that go on offer. Discrimination in the work place is as big amongst female employees as amongs males in my experience of 10 years in HR.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Chris we're going to have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I don't know the ins and outs of the legislation but, while it may be onerous, one can assume that it has been considered from all angles, debated, voted on, and subsequently argued in court until it evolved to where it is now with the aim of striking the right balance between employers and workers. Clearly, that balance isn't where you would like it to be and you're perfectly entitled to express the opinion that it's wrong and to campaign to change it but not to openly flout it. Doesn't make you a bad person, necessarily, but we're definitely on opposite sides of this fence.
		
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I'm happy to disagree over the matter Karen but am personally still offended by the "odious" slur.

Employment legislation is generally imposed by the Government in office without the agreement of employers and I suspect it was the 17 year Labour government, asked by, and bank rolled by the unions who pushed this through. I don't flout it, and never have done, as i have repeatedly pointed out that I have NEVER had a female job applicant and therefore never had to. 

I can't be tried and convicted for something just because I have said I'd do it if I had to


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## chrisd (May 23, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			And many don't but that's a valid reason to discriminate against all women whether they ever become mothers or not?
		
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Of course it isn't, but that's where  heavy handed legislation penalises the very people it seeks o help


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I'm happy to disagree over the matter Karen but am personally still offended by the "odious" slur.
		
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Took me a while to come up with an appropriate adjective in that post. Something that conveyed my outrage at being discriminated against without being too strong for the forum. It's far from perfect, maybe something more apt will come to mind belatedly, but I'm glad it touched a nerve. 

I acknowledge you have never actually carried out this sort of discrimination, which I didn't initially appreciate.


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## Rumpokid (May 23, 2014)

Yes..Out with the old, in with the new. A vote for common sense, reason, rationale...Only London matters to the usual clowns.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I wonder if all the people on here outraged, have ever mocked a friend for having a shandy, or not getting past the red tees? 

Women in the work place have massive rights these days. I don't think an employee should need to be held accountable for when they go on leave. If all women agreed to come back fully then I would support it. But as I've said, many take fully maternity packages at the companies expense and then leave.
		
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You hit an issue my Mrs has with her work colleagues bang on - as she is totally p'd off with a couple of her younger female colleagues who think it is their *right *to be able to work flexibly and have time off as necessary to accommodate their childcare - no matter how that flexibility might impact the service their small team provides (in the NHS) or how it might impact upon their colleagues (such as my Mrs) who have to cover their time off and do all the later (after 5:30pm let's say) work that should be shared.  Oh yes - and their annual leave requests have to take priority over the rest - as they have children - as if my M rs doesn;t have a life outside of work, commitments and resonsibilities.

rant over

Many women with young children are really not doing their case - or the case of younger women seeking employment - much good.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			You have a daughter?  How about the debate being _'Can you go tell her that no matter how much hard work and effort she puts into bettering herself, she may well not get employed purely because of her sex and and because there is a chance she will have a baby_'?  And if that's a socialist left wing activist argument instead of a morally right argument in anyone's world then so be it.

I am sure that there are lots of red tape and legislation that is putting a burden on businesses and that some of it should go. But lumping what I would call a basic human right of a person to be chosen on their ability rather than their sex together with other legislation is in my opinion morally and legally wrong.  I will state again many many very successful business employ women.
		
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See! you can debate the subject matter without name calling.  You should have done this the first time.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			See! you can debate the subject matter without name calling.  You should have done this the first time.
		
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I wasn't name calling, i was just offering some impartial advice


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## Pathetic Shark (May 23, 2014)

I voted in the Dunny-on-the-Wold Constituency.    Wanted to vote for the "Standing at the back looking stupid" Party but once again they got no votes for that silly abolition of slavery policy.


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

Actually reading all of this stuff about maternity leave is quite amusing, here is another take for you. My wife can earn up to 3x my wages, why would she want or the household require her to take maternity leave? Should I not take it and bring our son up? Oh that isn't available is it? Paternity leave is around 2 weeks and it's generally assumed that a man earns more than a woman, which is untrue. 
I do laugh my socks off when they say women earn less than men, it's such a gender misrepresentation... Equality for men please, especially proper engineers!


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Actually reading all of this stuff about maternity leave is quite amusing, here is another take for you. My wife can earn up to 3x my wages, why would she want or the household require her to take maternity leave? Should I not take it and bring our son up? Oh that isn't available is it? Paternity leave is around 2 weeks and it's generally assumed that a man earns more than a woman, which is untrue. 
I do laugh my socks off when they say women earn less than men, it's such a gender misrepresentation... Equality for men please, especially proper engineers!
		
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Exactly! Parental leave / Childcare etc is not a women's issue despite predominantly being considered in that way. Once it's seen as a "parent's issue" a lot of this sort of discrimination should go away.


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Actually reading all of this stuff about maternity leave is quite amusing, here is another take for you. My wife can earn up to 3x my wages, why would she want or the household require her to take maternity leave? Should I not take it and bring our son up? Oh that isn't available is it? Paternity leave is around 2 weeks and it's generally assumed that a man earns more than a woman, which is untrue. 
I do laugh my socks off when they say women earn less than men, it's such a gender misrepresentation... Equality for men please, especially proper engineers!
		
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I am sure the government were talking about introducing a scheme where the parents can share the leave.  So the father can take up to 6 months off and return to their job instead of the mother, if their financial situation makes more sense.  

No idea what stage this got to, being cynical I'd say the government are probably weighing up if it will be a net vote winner or loser for the next election.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

In general Women are better than men at raising children, its their natural role.   Men can muddle through the role but are not as good at it.   I think the majority of Women would prefer to stay at home and raise their offspring but are restricted doing this for financial reasons.     Maybe if more  Women stayed at home while their children grew up then house prices would fall along with incomes and some of the need to return to work would be removed.

Just thinking.


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			In general Women are better than men at raising children, its their natural role.   Men can muddle through the role but are not as good at it.   I think the majority of Women would prefer to stay at home and raise their offspring but are restricted doing this for financial reasons.     Maybe if more  Women stayed at home while their children grew up then house prices would fall along with incomes and some of the need to return to work would be removed.

Just thinking.
		
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Just fishing?


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

I know that my wife feels guilty that she is working and not looking after her little boy. However to suggest one gender is better than the other is incorrect. Having watched how parents interact, and child minders I think it's parent dependant, basically if you want to be involved that's your choice. I have witnessed mothers just plonking their child down and gassing with their friends and their child just running about and causing mayhem. I have also been asked to look after their kids whilst they gas with their friends. The child minders are similar, it does depend how professional they are some are brilliant and interact really well with their children. 
I suppose I am very lucky my boy knows I am his father and I saw his first steps and we have had our second word tonight which was "cheese" ...


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			I know that my wife feels guilty that she is working and not looking after her little boy. However to suggest one gender is better than the other is incorrect. Having watched how parents interact, and child minders I think it's parent dependant, basically if you want to be involved that's your choice. I have witnessed mothers just plonking their child down and gassing with their friends and their child just running about and causing mayhem. I have also been asked to look after their kids whilst they gas with their friends. The child minders are similar, it does depend how professional they are some are brilliant and interact really well with their children. 
I suppose I am very lucky my boy knows I am his father and I saw his first steps and we have had our second word tonight which was "cheese" ...
		
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In general! 

There will of course be exceptions but we cant close our eyes to nature, the female species have evolved to give birth and nurture the offspring.  Males have evolved to satisfy the need for food, shelter and the other hierarchical needs for survival and this is generally the case throughout the natural world.

In the majority of cases its not about whether the father or mother stays home with the children, its about the children being farmed out to others so that the money supply is available to improve lifestyle.


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			In general! 

There will of course be exceptions but we cant close our eyes to nature, the female species have evolved to give birth and nurture the offspring.  Males have evolved to satisfy the need for food, shelter and the other hierarchical needs for survival and this is generally the case throughout the natural world.

In the majority of cases its not about whether the father or mother stays home with the children, its about the children being farmed out to others so that the money supply is available to improve lifestyle.
		
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It's okay if you don't want to participate, it's your choice, not all fathers are the same. I don't think your talking about nature your making a social comment, one that is forced upon us ... As I stated earlier men don't have the options women do.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			It's okay if you don't want to participate, it's your choice, not all fathers are the same. I don't think your talking about nature your making a social comment, one that is forced upon us ... As I stated earlier men don't have the options women do.
		
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Do you disagree that other species of mammals live this way?


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## SaintHacker (May 23, 2014)

Fairway Dodger, serious question. When you renew your car insurance do you demand to be treated equally or are you happy to accept a female driver discount?


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			In general Women are better than men at raising children, its their natural role.   Men can muddle through the role but are not as good at it.   I think the majority of Women would prefer to stay at home and raise their offspring but are restricted doing this for financial reasons.     *Maybe if more  Women stayed at home while their children grew up then house prices would fall along with incomes and some of the need to return to work would be removed.*

Just thinking.
		
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Thanks for that nuanced economic insight there.  Before you use this for evidence to support your argument, this is ironic. 

[video=youtube;LS37SNYjg8w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w[/video]


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you disagree that other species of mammals live this way?
		
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Do all mammals have sex for pleasure?


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you disagree that other species of mammals live this way?
		
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Other species of Mammal kill each other for pleasure and eat their own young.. I'd like to think that we're *attempting* to evolve beyond that as well....


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Do all mammals have sex for pleasure?
		
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Probably dont have it for displeasure.


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## williamalex1 (May 23, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Other species of Mammal kill each other for pleasure and eat their own young.. I'd like to think that we're *attempting* to evolve beyond that as well....

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Veally.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Other species of Mammal kill each other for pleasure and eat their own young.. I'd like to think that we're *attempting* to evolve beyond that as well....

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You've not met my Mother in Law then


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 23, 2014)

From Post #29 onwards it is very difficult to see what any of this has to do with the OP.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			From Post #29 onwards it is very difficult to see what any of this has to do with the OP.
		
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Are you new on here?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2014)

Wow I didn't expect to read all that after reading the OP 

Quite hard to digest some of the stuff that has been said.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Veally.

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If someone has an issue with Veal, then they should probably avoid milk as well then..


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably dont have it for displeasure.
		
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You made a comparison between mammals and humans, saying that the behaviour was the same. Your argument is flawed, try again.


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			You made a comparison between mammals and humans, saying that the behaviour was the same. Your argument is flawed, try again.
		
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Well!  I suggested we had the same instincts where the female of the species had developed to be better at raising their young.   I never suggested we also went around sniffing each others backsides as a greeting


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Thanks for that nuanced economic insight there.  Before you use this for evidence to support your argument, this is ironic. 

[video=youtube;LS37SNYjg8w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w[/video]
		
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You are doing it again!!   Knew it wouldn't last


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## Rumpokid (May 23, 2014)

..Did you vote today...thread..hellooo....how did it degenerate into posts about inane crap???...No wonder country is in state it is..By the way. golfing tomorrow....


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			..Did you vote today...thread..hellooo....how did it degenerate into posts about inane crap???...No wonder country is in state it is..By the way. golfing tomorrow....

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So your quite new to the Forum as well?


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## Rumpokid (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So your quite new to the Forum as well?
		
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Yes..Still got the L plates and false titties..


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well!  I suggested we had the same instincts where the female of the species had developed to be better at raising their young.   I never suggested we also went around sniffing each others backsides as a greeting 

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So why did you mention mammals ?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well!  I suggested we had the same instincts where the female of the species had developed to be better at raising their young.   I never suggested we also went around sniffing each others backsides as a greeting 

Click to expand...




harpo_72 said:



			So why did you mention mammals ?
		
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Snakes, Jellyfish, Spiders and Ants may have different relationships but us Humans are a member of the Mammal set and just like the rest of our furry friends our females  have developed the wherewithal to give birth to and nurture our offspring.


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Snakes, Jellyfish, Spiders and Ants may have different relationships but us Humans are a member of the Mammal set and just like the rest of our furry friends our females  have developed the wherewithal to give birth to and nurture our offspring.
		
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Yes but some of there behaviour contradicts ours... Hence a flawed argument. Just admit you don't want anything to do with your children and they are only there to carry your name to the next generation, it's quite a common opinion/feeling. The English have as a society opted to dump there kids or have them brought up by their mother, it has nothing really to do with being a mammal.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2014)

Lots of blanket statements being thrown by a number of people 

Please try and not judge everyone and tar everyone with the same brush.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			The English have as a society opted to dump there kids or have them brought up by their mother.
		
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The English have done what now? All of us? Wind yer neck in fella...


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## harpo_72 (May 23, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			The English have done what now? All of us? Wind yer neck in fella...
		
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Eh ?? My neck isn't out ... Yet. It's a comment on normal practice of English society, not a criticism.


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## bluewolf (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Eh ?? My neck isn't out ... Yet. It's a comment on normal practice of English society, not a criticism.
		
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Not a criticism?????? Have you read it? Or did you just use an insult randomiser to spew it out? Dump our kids? As opposed to who exactly? Are we the only ones who follow this doctrine?


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes but some of there behaviour contradicts ours... Hence a flawed argument. Just admit you don't want anything to do with your children and they are only there to carry your name to the next generation, it's quite a common opinion/feeling. The English have as a society opted to dump there kids or have them brought up by their mother, it has nothing really to do with being a mammal.
		
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You do seem to get a bit confused.   I love my children and have dedicated my life to them but there seems to be no winning with you. Damned if you put your Children in Nursery and Damned if the Mother looks after them 

You seem to have a racist view with the English!   Why's that?


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You do seem to get a bit confused.   I love my children and have dedicated my life to them but there seems to be no winning with you. Damned if you put your Children in Nursery and Damned if the Mother looks after them 

You seem to have a racist view with the English!   Why's that?
		
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Ah I see what you have done there, you have feigned righteous indignation to cover up your initial comment about it being a woman's job. You have tried to justify your initial comment about women staying at home to look after kids because they are better at it, using nature, which was flawed. One cannot pick and choose examples because they suit one facet of an argument and ignore all the others. Then you get upset with the word "dumped" ( perhaps a strong phrase). You then claim to have dedicated your life to your kids, but how could you if you believe your initial statement? Stop running with the foxes and chasing with the hounds, admit that your initial comment was misguided and parenting in all honesty takes both mum and dad, we are not unique in nature to do this there are species that take turns in looking after their off spring. 
And just except that it is the social influencers that pretty much dictate our behaviour. 
I am actually far from confused when it comes to what I have seen I fully understand why mothers want to go back to work and also see fathers saying I love my children that is why I work long hours and don't participate much in the child's up bringing. 
I do think that I have been very lucky to bring my boy up and be involved in his initial development, although I as person need to get back and do a job ( probably due to social pressure and the view that by not having a job I am a social parasite and the fact that I would like my own money to spend!). However I won't be working the long hours, 40hrs a week is my contracted obligation, before my son I worked pretty much all the time. I want to get home have a chat with him, play a bit and be there. But your going to say your leaving him, I am but I am opening the door for my wife to reduce her work load and alleviate the financial pressure she feels so that she can have more time with our son. However childcare will be required somewhere in between, and no we are not dumping our boy on someone else, we have made decisions based on the facts we have before us and our boy is old enough and in need of the development he will get with a small number of other children. He is 19 months, just at the right age to make friends and interact with other children..... 
Am I a racist ? I am English I am entitled to criticise the English


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah I see what you have done there, you have feigned righteous indignation to cover up your initial comment about it being a woman's job. You have tried to justify your initial comment about women staying at home to look after kids because they are better at it, using nature, which was flawed. One cannot pick and choose examples because they suit one facet of an argument and ignore all the others. Then you get upset with the word "dumped" ( perhaps a strong phrase). You then claim to have dedicated your life to your kids, but how could you if you believe your initial statement? Stop running with the foxes and chasing with the hounds, admit that your initial comment was misguided and parenting in all honesty takes both mum and dad, we are not unique in nature to do this there are species that take turns in looking after their off spring. 
And just except that it is the social influencers that pretty much dictate our behaviour. 
I am actually far from confused when it comes to what I have seen I fully understand why mothers want to go back to work and also see fathers saying I love my children that is why I work long hours and don't participate much in the child's up bringing. 
I do think that I have been very lucky to bring my boy up and be involved in his initial development, although I as person need to get back and do a job ( probably due to social pressure and the view that by not having a job I am a social parasite and the fact that I would like my own money to spend!). However I won't be working the long hours, 40hrs a week is my contracted obligation, before my son I worked pretty much all the time. I want to get home have a chat with him, play a bit and be there. But your going to say your leaving him, I am but I am opening the door for my wife to reduce her work load and alleviate the financial pressure she feels so that she can have more time with our son. However childcare will be required somewhere in between, and no we are not dumping our boy on someone else, we have made decisions based on the facts we have before us and our boy is old enough and in need of the development he will get with a small number of other children. He is 19 months, just at the right age to make friends and interact with other children..... 
Am I a racist ? I am English I am entitled to criticise the English
		
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Hope you feel better for spewing out that tirade!   The points I raised seem to have gone over your head so no point in confusing you more.


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah I see what you have done there, you have feigned righteous indignation to cover up your initial comment about it being a woman's job. You have tried to justify your initial comment about women staying at home to look after kids because they are better at it, using nature, which was flawed. One cannot pick and choose examples because they suit one facet of an argument and ignore all the others. Then you get upset with the word "dumped" ( perhaps a strong phrase). You then claim to have dedicated your life to your kids, but how could you if you believe your initial statement? Stop running with the foxes and chasing with the hounds, admit that your initial comment was misguided and parenting in all honesty takes both mum and dad, we are not unique in nature to do this there are species that take turns in looking after their off spring. 
And just except that it is the social influencers that pretty much dictate our behaviour. 
I am actually far from confused when it comes to what I have seen I fully understand why mothers want to go back to work and also see fathers saying I love my children that is why I work long hours and don't participate much in the child's up bringing. 
I do think that I have been very lucky to bring my boy up and be involved in his initial development, although I as person need to get back and do a job ( probably due to social pressure and the view that by not having a job I am a social parasite and the fact that I would like my own money to spend!). However I won't be working the long hours, 40hrs a week is my contracted obligation, before my son I worked pretty much all the time. I want to get home have a chat with him, play a bit and be there. But your going to say your leaving him, I am but I am opening the door for my wife to reduce her work load and alleviate the financial pressure she feels so that she can have more time with our son. However childcare will be required somewhere in between, and no we are not dumping our boy on someone else, we have made decisions based on the facts we have before us and our boy is old enough and in need of the development he will get with a small number of other children. He is 19 months, just at the right age to make friends and interact with other children..... 
Am I a racist ? I am English I am entitled to criticise the English
		
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I work a maximum of 35hrs and my wife 30hrs. On opposite shifts as well. No childminders needed for either child. Simple. 

In all honesty, you sound a bit peeved about going back to work. Lots of other English people make it work somehow. They don't "dump" their kids anywhere. They don't abdicate their parental responsibilities. Your words were Ill chosen and almost spiteful. Some families are forced to work extra hours as they need the money to support themselves.


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## sev112 (May 24, 2014)

I quite like the Ant analogy
I see to spend my whole life pandering to the whims of my wife and daughter ...


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I work a maximum of 35hrs and my wife 30hrs. On opposite shifts as well. No childminders needed for either child. Simple. 

In all honesty, you sound a bit peeved about going back to work. Lots of other English people make it work somehow. They don't "dump" their kids anywhere. They don't abdicate their parental responsibilities. Your words were Ill chosen and almost spiteful. Some families are forced to work extra hours as they need the money to support themselves.
		
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Not peeved at all .. I am glad you can make it work for you and yes they do make it work I know but socket rocket is just talking rubbish... as someone suggested earlier he was on a fishing trip.
I don't know what your issues are but you accuse me of winding my neck out and then start having a go ... I don't think they were spiteful, they just were not dressed in diplomatic flowers ...


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Not peeved at all .. I am glad you can make it work for you and yes they do make it work I know but socket rocket is just talking rubbish... as someone suggested earlier he was on a fishing trip.
I don't know what your issues are but you accuse me of winding my neck out and then start having a go ... I don't think they were spiteful, they just were not dressed in diplomatic flowers ...
		
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if he was on a fishing trip, then you bit spectacularly didn't you?  Your comments were insulting. Dressing them up would have made them insulting. You made a mass generalisation that was fundamentally wrong. And to make it even worse, you put me on the same side of the argument as Socket. That's officially a bad day in my book!!!


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## c1973 (May 24, 2014)

Decent result for Labour and UKIP.


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## sev112 (May 24, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Decent result for Labour and UKIP.
		
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Where is everyone getting all this UKIP success from
They have no seats and got less votes than they did last time ?!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2014)

sev112 said:



			Where is everyone getting all this UKIP success from
They have no seats and got less votes than they did last time ?!
		
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Is this the European results or the local council ones ?

Edit: they gained 163 council seats


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Decent result for Labour and UKIP.
		
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Not too good for Labour as they failed to secure a number of their targets in key areas and lost a lot of votes to UKIP.

This may act as a wake-up call for them as, I believe, they had fallen into the same trap as much of the media who assumed it would only be Tory voters defecting in numbers to UKIP.


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## harpo_72 (May 24, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			if he was on a fishing trip, then you bit spectacularly didn't you?  Your comments were insulting. Dressing them up would have made them insulting. You made a mass generalisation that was fundamentally wrong. And to make it even worse, you put me on the same side of the argument as Socket. That's officially a bad day in my book!!!
		
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Really? Geez you need a life if that sets you off


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## bluewolf (May 24, 2014)

harpo_72 said:



			Really? Geez you need a life if that sets you off
		
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Lol.. Sets me off? Priceless... Look, you made an insulting, incorrect, naive statement. You don't want to say sorry.. I understand, it's difficult to admit a weakness... Have a good day..


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			if he was on a fishing trip, then you bit spectacularly didn't you?  Your comments were insulting. Dressing them up would have made them insulting. You made a mass generalisation that was fundamentally wrong. *And to make it even worse, you put me on the same side of the argument as Socket*. That's officially a bad day in my book!!!
		
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Lol!   Glad to be of some help  :thup:


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this the European results or the local council ones ?

Edit: they gained 163 council seats
		
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So they can bugger the local community about, no harm done there then. I know some quite intelligent people who voted UKIP but admitted that they would stay well clear in a real election.

i don't care who votes for who as long as they vote. Find it amusing that the biggest whingers are normally those who cannot get of their butts to vote and then come up with a crap excuse for not doing so.


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## MegaSteve (May 24, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Not too good for Labour as they failed to secure a number of their targets in key areas and lost a lot of votes to UKIP.
		
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Well, they got Hammersmith and Fulham which was DaveCam's 'favourite' council...


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			So they can bugger the local community about, no harm done there then. I know some quite intelligent people who voted UKIP but admitted that they would stay well clear in a real election.

i don't care who votes for who as long as they vote. Find it amusing that the biggest whingers are normally those who cannot get of their butts to vote and then come up with a crap excuse for not doing so.
		
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Not sure I'd class myself as intelligent but I voted UKIP for the MEP knowing UKIP's strong views on Europe, which won't come to fruition. I wouldn't dream of voting for them in either a council election or a General election. It was purely in the hope that there would be enough (protest) votes going to UKIP to make the major parties sit up and take note.

Look at the EU referendum Diddy David has promised for after the next General election - it's lip service. He pretty much forced  the Scottish parliament to have their independence referendum in this session but has dodged an EU one... I'll vote to stay in Europe but I find Diddy David's stance disingenuous.


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## c1973 (May 24, 2014)

sev112 said:



			Where is everyone getting all this UKIP success from
They have no seats and got less votes than they did last time ?!
		
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MetalMickie said:



			Not too good for Labour as they failed to secure a number of their targets in key areas and lost a lot of votes to UKIP.

This may act as a wake-up call for them as, I believe, they had fallen into the same trap as much of the media who assumed it would only be Tory voters defecting in numbers to UKIP.
		
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So UKIP gaining 161 seats and Labour gaining 338 seats and control of 6 additional councils is somehow a poor showing?


Agree with the comment regarding the assumption only the Tory vote would be hit by UKIP. 

I'm not saying I agree with UKIP policies, but by shouting them down as racists and bigots and not engaging properly in debate has been an own goal imo. Their policies may not be everyones cup of tea but obviously there are plenty voters (in England in particular) they are reaching.

Quite glad to see Clegg and the Lib Dems getting spanked.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2014)

What odds another hung government next year?


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Look at the EU referendum Diddy David has promised for after the next General election - it's lip service. He pretty much forced  the Scottish parliament to have their independence referendum in this session but has dodged an EU one... I'll vote to stay in Europe but I find Diddy David's stance disingenuous.
		
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Too true. It is obvious that the political class have got us so far bogged down by the cess pit of the EU that getting out is not a realistic option (unless the whole thing folds). Our best option is renegotiation if that is ever going to happen.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What odds another hung government next year?
		
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Ask again after September.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Their policies may not be everyones cup of tea but obviously there are plenty voters (in England in particular) they are reaching.
		
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You've seen policies


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## c1973 (May 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What odds another hung government next year?
		
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Going by the figures (dangerous I know) from the other day then it's looking a possibility. Unless Labour tie up a lot of votes up here, kind of ironic considering all I hear from certain quarters up here is 'we have no say in it' and 'we aren't represented in Westminster'. Lol


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## c1973 (May 24, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			You've seen policies 

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Lol, fair point, but I think you get the gist of my post.


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## LanDog (May 24, 2014)

A question for the Brits, who would you like to see win the general election? 

Can you genuinely see Ed Miliband as leader of the country? 

Would you be prepared to sit through another term of the Tory's?

Are you gonna vote straight outta right wing?


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 24, 2014)

c1973 said:



			So UKIP gaining 161 seats and Labour gaining 338 seats and control of 6 additional councils is somehow a poor showing?


Agree with the comment regarding the assumption only the Tory vote would be hit by UKIP. 

I'm not saying I agree with UKIP policies, but by shouting them down as racists and bigots and not engaging properly in debate has been an own goal imo. Their policies may not be everyones cup of tea but obviously there are plenty voters (in England in particular) they are reaching.

Quite glad to see Clegg and the Lib Dems getting spanked.
		
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In the Midlands and the South East Labour targetted a number of authorities that they saw as key to the future General Election as these authorities mirror parliamentary constituencies that they would need to win if they are to secure an overall majority.
In many cases they failed and this has, therefore, led to criticism of the party's leadership by many within.

Overall it seems that many within the upper reaches of the Labour Party had anticipated gaining somewhere between 450 and 500 seats as might be expected from an Opposition party at this stage of a Parliament. 

The difficulty in assessing the result can arise from comparing seats gained with share of vote secured nationally.


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure I'd class myself as intelligent but I voted UKIP for the MEP knowing UKIP's strong views on Europe, which won't come to fruition. I wouldn't dream of voting for them in either a council election or a General election. It was purely in the hope that there would be enough (protest) votes going to UKIP to make the major parties sit up and take note.
		
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Genuine question with none of the usual sarcastic slant I normally use, but what are you protesting against?  What do the major parties need to do to get your vote?  Is it purely the Europe/immigrants issue? 

Is there something else UKIP are doing or the fact that the others are not doing something?  I am genuinely interested in hearing why people vote for UKIP


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2014)

Did you hear Miliband on Radio Wiltshire.
He did not know the name of the Swindon Labour leader, tried to bluff it and got caught out.
He then said that he was a very good leader of the council........... which is Tory controlled.

Bound to be on Utube!!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2014)

Did you hear Miliband on Radio Wiltshire.
He did not know the name of the Swindon Labour leader, tried to bluff it and got caught out.
He then said that he was a very good leader of the council........... which is Tory controlled.

Bound to be on Utube!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2014)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...excruciating-interview-on-BBC-Radio-Wiltshire.

Sorry not connecting!


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuine question with none of the usual sarcastic slant I normally use, but what are you protesting against?  What do the major parties need to do to get your vote?  Is it purely the Europe/immigrants issue? 

Is there something else UKIP are doing or the fact that the others are not doing something?  I am genuinely interested in hearing why people vote for UKIP
		
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Nothing to do with immigration, although I would be tempted to say we're full. It's about several things. One is false promises the major parties trot out as vote winners. Two is honesty rather than spin. Three is the vote on Europe - why not during this parliament, especially as DC has insisted that Scotland has its referendum. Four is I am absolutely fed up of hearing "its the right thing to do." Give me the info and let me decide if its the right thing to do.

In simple terms, I don't trust any of the 3 leaders. DC over his stance on an EU referendum. Milliband is a weak puppet of the old guard. Clegg is an arrogant xxxx, and not in touch with the man in the street. 

And I certainly don't trust Farage. But I'm hoping the ground swell of votes that UKIP have received will see the more centre parties coming up with something that I can trust and appeals to me.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What odds another hung government next year?
		
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If there's any chance I'd be happy to pay for the rope.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2014)

LanDog said:



			A question for the Brits, who would you like to see win the general election? 

Can you genuinely see Ed Miliband as leader of the country? 

Would you be prepared to sit through another term of the Tory's?

Are you gonna vote straight outta right wing?
		
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Good question indeed

Lib dems are a spent force i think its fair to say, although they have done some good in this parliament.

UKIP lots of protest votes going their way . will it hold up in a general election? remains to be seen, but definately a vote splitter, taking votes away from both labour and Conversative. In My Opinion

labour:  What Dippy Ed (not balls)  as PM???  You having a laugh

Conversative:  doing a decent job of digging us out of the mess that we found ourselves in, yes its been really tough, yes its not popular, but I dont see us being where we are at the moment under labour

There is light at the end of the tunnel and I think that sticking with the conservatives is the wise move, others here will disagree, but nobody can deny that we are in a better economic situation now than when they came into power. 

Agree its a long way from perfect, Youth unemployment for instance, but its better than where we could have been.

I think we should remain in Europe as a trading nation, but i dont like the rise of the European Federal super state, its like WW2 without the guns

thats enough hand grenades for one evening


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good question indeed

Lib dems are a spent force i think its fair to say, although they have done some good in this parliament.

UKIP lots of protest votes going their way . will it hold up in a general election? remains to be seen, but definately a vote splitter, taking votes away from both labour and Conversative. In My Opinion

labour:  What Dippy Ed (not balls)  as PM???  You having a laugh

Conversative:  doing a decent job of digging us out of the mess that we found ourselves in, yes its been really tough, yes its not popular, but I dont see us being where we are at the moment under labour

There is light at the end of the tunnel and I think that sticking with the conservatives is the wise move, others here will disagree, but nobody can deny that we are in a better economic situation now than when they came into power. 

Agree its a long way from perfect, Youth unemployment for instance, but its better than where we could have been.

I think we should remain in Europe as a trading nation, but i dont like the rise of the European Federal super state, its like WW2 without the guns

thats enough hand grenades for one evening 

Click to expand...

Shame you didn't pull the pins out first. Nothing too controversial there and nodding my head in agreement


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Shame you didn't pull the pins out first. Nothing too controversial there and nodding my head in agreement
		
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damn i'm just too reasonable


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			damn i'm just too reasonable 

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I think your post has a lot of merit.

Course there is another major issue you didn't mention and thats immigration.  What ever is said here or by the Liberal Elite its a very big issue with many people in this country, probably the majority and UKip are the only ones prepared to address it.   It's a numbers issue, not a racist one and the two major parties will now be forced to come out of the closet and say what they will do about it.


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## 2blue (May 24, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuine question with none of the usual sarcastic slant I normally use, but what are you protesting against?  What do the major parties need to do to get your vote?  Is it purely the Europe/immigrants issue? 

Is there something else UKIP are doing or the fact that the others are not doing something?  I am genuinely interested in hearing why people vote for UKIP
		
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An excellent post Mr Khan......   nice & simple.

As is the Ballot paper rather than the gun & mob rule

Its amazing just how many people seem to be happy to let others choose their Government for them.

Politics is simple....  but I'm afraid not exact......   if you will only vote for someone that has your 100% agreement on policies or you feel is 'trust worthy, honest & a real nice person'.........  then you will spend a lifetime having your leaders chosen for you....   & is an insult to those who gave their all fighting to retain that right.

A greater puzzle to me is why so many people of Sunderland decided to give their support to UKIP, who want us out of the EU which would mean Nissan leaving the area......  incredible.


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## Imurg (May 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			if you will only vote for someone that has your 100% agreement on policies or you feel is 'trust worthy, honest & a real nice person'.........  then you will spend a lifetime having your leaders chosen for you....   & is an insult to those who gave their all fighting to retain that right.
.
		
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50% and one of those three would be a start......

and Politicians regularly don't vote - they even have a fancy name for it.
They abstain........because they feel they can't vote either way..


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			A greater puzzle to me is why so many people of Sunderland decided to give their support to UKIP, who want us out of the EU which would mean Nissan leaving the area......  incredible.
		
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So do you honestly believe that the EU wont buy cars from the UK if they are not a member?    Do you also think the UK will not buy cars from the EU?


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## 2blue (May 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			50% and one of those three would be a start......

and Politicians regularly don't vote - they even have a fancy name for it.
They abstain........because they feel they can't vote either way..
		
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Aye 50% could easy be enough, I'd have thought, if their principles are agreeable.
However it would be worrying if folk got confused by the difference of an abstention over a proposal & voting for who should be put in charge of our nation.


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			A greater puzzle to me is why so many people of Sunderland decided to give their support to UKIP, who want us out of the EU which would mean Nissan leaving the area......  incredible.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			So do you honestly believe that the EU wont buy cars from the UK if they are not a member?    Do you also think the UK will not buy cars from the EU?
		
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Imagine instead of throwing Â£55mill a day to the EU, you could subsidise British industry to the tune of even half that... I would prefer to be in the EU but to renegotiate the terms but just think what you could do with Â£55 mill a day.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Imagine instead of throwing Â£55mill a day to the EU, you could subsidise British industry to the tune of even half that... I would prefer to be in the EU but to renegotiate the terms but just think what you could do with Â£55 mill a day.
		
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It could certainly improve the time it takes to see a doctor and fill in the pot holes.


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## 2blue (May 24, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Imagine instead of throwing Â£55mill a day to the EU, you could subsidise British industry to the tune of even half that... I would prefer to be in the EU but to renegotiate the terms but just think what you could do with Â£55 mill a day.
		
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I think SR has forgotten that those companies making cars aren't actually British....  they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they?
Renegotiation of membership is pie-in-the-sky I'm afraid, as we need them more than they need us.....  the EU is a world power.....  Little-Britain is not....  even  though people think we have the best Royal Family in the world ......  now there's some money wasted!!!


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## MegaSteve (May 24, 2014)

2blue said:



			I think SR has forgotten that those companies making cars aren't actually British....  they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they?
		
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They said they would up and leave if the UK didn't join the Eurozone... We didn't and they didn't...


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## 2blue (May 24, 2014)

MegaSteve said:



			They said they would up and leave if the UK didn't join the Eurozone... We didn't and they didn't...
		
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Euro Zone was minor in comparison to losing access to world markets...  going it alone is a dream world/// like Englend winning World Cup again in my life time :smirk:


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			I think SR has forgotten that those companies making cars aren't actually British....  they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they?
Renegotiation of membership is pie-in-the-sky I'm afraid, as we need them more than they need us.....  the EU is a world power.....  Little-Britain is not....  even  though people think we have the best Royal Family in the world ......  now there's some money wasted!!!
		
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Think about it!  

" they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they? "
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to create new production lines and train a new labour force in another country?

You ignored my point on whether the EU would want to stop selling cars to the UK.   We would have a free trade agreement with the EU if we left, we buy more from the EU than we sell.   Your argument is flawed and the scare tactic used by the Liberal Elite.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Euro Zone was minor in comparison to losing access to world markets...  going it alone is a dream world/// like Englend winning World Cup again in my life time :smirk:
		
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" losing access to world markets"   Thats exactly what we have being a member of the EU.    We would be free to negotiate trade agreements with any country we wanted to if we left, we don't have that freedom now.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Euro Zone was minor in comparison to losing access to world markets...  going it alone is a dream world/// like Englend winning World Cup again in my life time :smirk:
		
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Not quite sure how withdrawing from the EU will lose the UK access to the world markets... The UK is itself is an important market for manufacturers so doubt they'll be leaving these shores anytime soon... Even when the UK withdraws from the EU [hopefully]...

Oh... and England have won the World Cup in my lifetime ...


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## 2blue (May 25, 2014)

SR...  you're living in Little-England...   a dangerous place to be.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			SR...  you're living in Little-England...   a dangerous place to be.
		
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Thats a rather silly reply.  If you cant make a reasoned discussion then just hold your hands up.

They won in my lifetime too.


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## 2blue (May 25, 2014)

like Englend winning World Cup *again* in my life time 

You guys are *blind* dreamers


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			like Englend winning World Cup *again* in my life time 

You guys are *blind* dreamers
		
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Stupid Boy!


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## Hacker Khan (May 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Think about it!  

" they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they? "
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to create new production lines and train a new labour force in another country?

You ignored my point on whether the EU would want to stop selling cars to the UK.   We would have a free trade agreement with the EU if we left, we buy more from the EU than we sell.   Your argument is flawed and the scare tactic used by the Liberal Elite.
		
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Could you just confirm if you think I am a 'socialist left wing activist' or a member of the 'liberal elite'?  As you seem to have used both in their post and I'm just wondering if I should put up a poster of Lenin or David Lloyd George on my bedroom wall?


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## Hobbit (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Renegotiation of membership is pie-in-the-sky I'm afraid, as we need them more than they need us.....  the EU is a world power.....  Little-Britain is not....
		
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As a world power, no we're not. As a major power within the EU, yes we are. The UK is the 4th largest contributor of the 13 who contribute. And I guess as a large contributor, they actually need us more than we need them.


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## MegaSteve (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			like Englend winning World Cup *again* in my life time 

You guys are *blind* dreamers
		
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Apologies, I overlooked *again* so I may well be going *blind* ...

And yes I am 'dreaming' of the better place the UK will become when the anchor, that the EU is, around 'our' necks is dispensed with...


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			I think SR has forgotten that those companies making cars aren't actually British....  they'll just up sticks and move to somewhere better suited to their market.....  why wouldn't they?
Renegotiation of membership is pie-in-the-sky I'm afraid, as we need them more than they need us.....  the EU is a world power.....  Little-Britain is not....  even  though people think we have the best Royal Family in the world ......  now there's some money wasted!!!
		
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But then you seem to think that UK is the only member looking to renegotiate terms and that the voters in all other member states of the EU are happy with the current situation. 

They are not.

Increasing groundswell against the present methods of funding and increasing federalism in Denmark & Germany, growing nationalism and anti-immigration feelings in France and a number of other countries.

Why is it that the pro-Europeans choose to believe that it is only the UK that harbours these doubters?

The EU (which I broadly support) is due for a major overhaul and is likely to have to face this sooner rather than later.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could you just confirm if you think I am a 'socialist left wing activist' or a member of the 'liberal elite'?  As you seem to have used both in their post and I'm just wondering if I should put up a poster of Lenin or David Lloyd George on my bedroom wall?
		
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There you go again, ducking the issue by exaggeration.  A Picture of Nick Clegg would be more apt.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			As a world power, no we're not. As a major power within the EU, yes we are. The UK is the 4th largest contributor of the 13 who contribute. And I guess as a large contributor, they actually need us more than we need them.
		
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Thats correct.     We trade with the EU at a deficit and when people suggest we would lose all our trade with them if we left is ridiculous.


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## 2blue (May 25, 2014)

Am afraid a lot of dreamers would have a night-mare coming when it dawned on them that outside the EU, UK would still have to follow some EU rules without having a vote just like every other non EU country in Europe - even the USA had to change laws on bribery to conform with EU and UK was one of the main drivers within the EU behind that change. 60% of our trade is with Europe if we leave the EU we will lose a lot of that trade. Our citizens can and do work all across Europe, freely moving from job to job. Take that away and we end up a small out of touch island off the coast of Europe with no resources no jobs and no future! Most of what Farage whines about is pure hypocrisy. He has taken more money in expenses than the worst offender in Parliament, has a German wife but complains about immigrants from Europe .... the list goes on. Worse than that Farage is a good guy compared with the rest of UKIP. DC might be an upper class twit but he is relatively harmless and usually only bends the truth, Farage wouldn't recognise the truth if it bit him on the arse - and even then he would blame Europe for being bitten. Bottom line is if Farage gets in the Old Etonians, like DC, will be fine but the working men and women of the UK will be screwed.......  WAKEY....  WAKEY!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Am afraid a lot of dreamers would have a night-mare coming when it dawned on them that outside the EU, UK would still have to follow some EU rules without having a vote just like every other non EU country in Europe - even the USA had to change laws on bribery to conform with EU and UK was one of the main drivers within the EU behind that change. 60% of our trade is with Europe if we leave the EU we will lose a lot of that trade. Our citizens can and do work all across Europe, freely moving from job to job. Take that away and we end up a small out of touch island off the coast of Europe with no resources no jobs and no future! Most of what Farage whines about is pure hypocrisy. He has taken more money in expenses than the worst offender in Parliament, has a German wife but complains about immigrants from Europe .... the list goes on. Worse than that Farage is a good guy compared with the rest of UKIP. DC might be an upper class twit but he is relatively harmless and usually only bends the truth, Farage wouldn't recognise the truth if it bit him on the arse - and even then he would blame Europe for being bitten. Bottom line is if Farage gets in the Old Etonians, like DC, will be fine but the working men and women of the UK will be screwed.......  WAKEY....  WAKEY!!!!!
		
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Balderdash!

You say we would lose a lot of our trade, please explain how that will happen?   Do you think EU countries would want to stop trading with us when they would have more to lose.    We would be able to negotiate free trade agreements with anyone around the world.

I think your type of thinking is 'Little Englander' as you dont seem to have confidence in your countries ability to prosper off their own back.    I have faith in the UK and know it would be set free from the mill stone that weighs us down and saps our spirit.

We have survived for a rather long time as a small island off the coast of Europe and have done very well by it.

GO BACK TO SLEEP!


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Am afraid a lot of dreamers would have a night-mare coming when it dawned on them that outside the EU, UK would still have to follow some EU rules without having a vote just like every other non EU country in Europe - even the USA had to change laws on bribery to conform with EU and UK was one of the main drivers within the EU behind that change. 60% of our trade is with Europe if we leave the EU we will lose a lot of that trade. Our citizens can and do work all across Europe, freely moving from job to job. Take that away and we end up a small out of touch island off the coast of Europe with no resources no jobs and no future! Most of what Farage whines about is pure hypocrisy. He has taken more money in expenses than the worst offender in Parliament, has a German wife but complains about immigrants from Europe .... the list goes on. Worse than that Farage is a good guy compared with the rest of UKIP. DC might be an upper class twit but he is relatively harmless and usually only bends the truth, Farage wouldn't recognise the truth if it bit him on the arse - and even then he would blame Europe for being bitten. Bottom line is if Farage gets in the Old Etonians, like DC, will be fine but the working men and women of the UK will be screwed.......  WAKEY....  WAKEY!!!!!
		
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You continue to fail to answer the question which is, in case you have forgotten rather than chosen to ignore it, why do you assume that it is only in this country that there are very significant numbers who are dissatisfied with the current set up of the EU?

Perhaps it suits your argument not to face facts but the truth is that many throughout Europe, and in particular Northern Europe, are very far from happy with the current mess.


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## 2blue (May 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Balderdash!

You say we would lose a lot of our trade, please explain how that will happen?   Do you think EU countries would want to stop trading with us when they would have more to lose.    We would be able to negotiate free trade agreements with anyone around the world.

I think your type of thinking is *'Little Englander'* as you dont seem to have confidence in your countries ability to prosper off their own back.    I have faith in the UK and know it would be set free from the mill stone that weighs us down and saps our spirit.

We have survived for a rather long time as a small island off the coast of Europe and have done very well by it.

GO BACK TO SLEEP!
		
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Hahaha.....  hook, line & sinker!!!!.....  has taken a while but 'You got there'.
A true 'Little Englander' you are.... confusing our UK membership of the EU to be just England's...  well I never...  guess we'd best leave in your own little world, WITHIN EUROPE


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Hahaha.....  hook, line & sinker!!!!.....  has taken a while but 'You got there'.
A true 'Little Englander' you are.... confusing our UK membership of the EU to be just England's...  well I never...  guess we'd best leave in your own little world, WITHIN EUROPE
		
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And you Sir continue to shy away from answering the question.

I can only assume that you do not have an answer.


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## 2blue (May 25, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			And you Sir continue to shy away from answering the question.

I can only assume that you do not have an answer.
		
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MM...  do I really have to explain to you that the answer to your question is very common knowledge & you should know it....  but it of course makes no difference to the argument....  However brush-up, & good luck with your little quizzes.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			MM...  do I really have to explain to you that the answer to your question is very common knowledge & you should know it....  but it of course makes no difference to the argument....  However brush-up, & good luck with your little quizzes.
		
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So basically you confirm that you are incapable of providing an answer to a straightforward question or in taking part in a serious debate.

Fair enough, not your fault I suppose.


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## Rumpokid (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Hahaha.....  hook, line & sinker!!!!.....  has taken a while but 'You got there'.
A true 'Little Englander' you are.... confusing our UK membership of the EU to be just England's...  well I never...  guess we'd best leave in your own little world, WITHIN EUROPE
		
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Is being a 'little Englander' something to be ashamed of..


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

2blue said:



			Hahaha.....  hook, line & sinker!!!!.....  has taken a while but 'You got there'.
A true 'Little Englander' you are.... confusing our UK membership of the EU to be just England's...  well I never...  guess we'd best leave in your own little world, WITHIN EUROPE
		
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WOOOOOSHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh! This debate seems to go right over your head!    I thought you were a little intelligent to start with but now I see you are a bit foggy when it comes to discussions.    Ah well! Takes all kinds I suppose


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2014)

So how are we standing at the moment ?

EU = good 

or

EU = bad and we need to go it alone ?


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So how are we standing at the moment ?

EU = good 

or

EU = bad and we need to go it alone ?
		
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Yes!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2014)

I tell you what is daft 

My dads friend is now returning to live in the UK after living in Saudi for the past 20 years ( worked for BAe ).

He married a lady from Thailand and they have two children - the eldest lives in the UK and goes to Uni

His wife has been refused entry in the country and had a visa turned down because tthey didnt believe he provided enough evidence to prove they have been living together for over 2 years !?!? It cost he Â£1200 to sort out the visa request and they didnt even tell him what he needed to provide them with 

He has to come home because his visa in Saudi has expired and she has had to go to Thailand with their youngest !! Madness


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I tell you what is daft 

My dads friend is now returning to live in the UK after living in Saudi for the past 20 years ( worked for BAe ).

He married a lady from Thailand and they have two children - the eldest lives in the UK and goes to Uni

His wife has been refused entry in the country and had a visa turned down because tthey didnt believe he provided enough evidence to prove they have been living together for over 2 years !?!? It cost he Â£1200 to sort out the visa request and they didnt even tell him what he needed to provide them with 

He has to come home because his visa in Saudi has expired and she has had to go to Thailand with their youngest !! Madness
		
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He's probably a victim due to these people that arrange marriages just to get a visa.   I guess you have to show proof of living together to show you are genuine.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			He's probably a victim due to these people that arrange marriages just to get a visa.   I guess you have to show proof of living together to show you are genuine.
		
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What proof can you provide though  ? He gave his marriage certificate , his rental agreement, his kids birth certificates , even gave them receipts that show him buying lady products from a shop !!


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## upsidedown (May 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What proof can you provide though  ? He gave his marriage certificate , his rental agreement, his kids birth certificates , even gave them receipts that show him buying lady products from a shop !!
		
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We had to prove our relationship when moving to NZ.

we used pictures together, invites to events, letter from golf club, joint account details, not that onerous really, he shouldn't have too many problems


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2014)

upsidedown said:



			We had to prove our relationship when moving to NZ.

we used pictures together, invites to events, letter from golf club, joint account details, not that onerous really, he shouldn't have too many problems
		
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Has tried all that as well - wedding invites , pictures also. Believe she needs to reapply with stronger evidence and an interview !! they have been married for 20 years !


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## upsidedown (May 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has tried all that as well - wedding invites , pictures also. Believe she needs to reapply with stronger evidence and an interview !! they have been married for 20 years !
		
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Unreal , just another head shaking moment because of our masters !! You couldn't make it up could you. We had only been together for less than 2 years when we applied.
Hope it's sorted for them soon .


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

The swivel eyed loons are doing rather well tonight.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



*The swivel eyed loons* are doing rather well tonight.
		
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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:





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have you been watching the European Parliament election results?

UKIP supporters were recently described as Swivel Eyed Loons by the Conservatives.


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## jp5 (May 26, 2014)

I fancy a slice of fruitcake today.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			I fancy a slice of fruitcake today.
		
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Looks like you will get it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2014)

I admit to being worried by the number of people supporting UKIP with no knowledge of any of their policies on many major issues. Our regional news programme did a vox pop asking those who stated that they were going to vote UKIP what the party's policies were on the economy, education, defence, health and welfare.

Whilst I accept it may well have been edited not one of the respondents had any idea of those policies. Have any of us?

This is the problem with single issue parties.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			I admit to being worried by the number of people supporting UKIP with no knowledge of any of their policies on many major issues. Our regional news programme did a vox pop asking those who stated that they were going to vote UKIP what the party's policies were on the economy, education, defence, health and welfare.

Whilst I accept it may well have been edited not one of the respondents had any idea of those policies. Have any of us?

This is the problem with single issue parties.
		
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I think many who voted for them did so on the single issue of EU membership. And I think many, like me, did so purely to give the main parties a wake up call.

But I wonder how many voters actually know the policies of any of the parties?

Personally, I've visited each of the, now 4, main parties websites. And I've spoken to my local MP on several occasions. I'd like to think I'm not uninformed.


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			I admit to being worried by the number of people supporting UKIP with no knowledge of any of their policies on many major issues. Our regional news programme did a vox pop asking those who stated that they were going to vote UKIP what the party's policies were on the economy, education, defence, health and welfare.

Whilst I accept it may well have been edited not one of the respondents had any idea of those policies. Have any of us?

This is the problem with single issue parties.
		
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They had a UKIP spokesman on the radio phone in this morning. When quizzed, even he couldn't come up with any policies other than "opposition to the madness of Europe". Fortunately for them, large swathes of the electorate vote on personalities and rhetoric rather than policy.


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## Imurg (May 26, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			. Fortunately for them, large swathes of the electorate vote on personalities and rhetoric rather than policy.
		
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Which, when you think about it, is more than slightly worrying..


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## chrisd (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			I admit to being worried by the number of people supporting UKIP with no knowledge of any of their policies on many major issues. Our regional news programme did a vox pop asking those who stated that they were going to vote UKIP what the party's policies were on the economy, education, defence, health and welfare.

Whilst I accept it may well have been edited not one of the respondents had any idea of those policies. Have any of us?

This is the problem with single issue parties.
		
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Does it really matter?

They will not win any amount of MP's next year and will never have to enact their manifesto. I am more interested in the reaction of the main parties who still think that it's purely a protest vote. I'm beginning to think that they don't understand that it's not a protest but a demand that they do something to stem the ever increasing march of the EU that make countries do what doesn't suit them individually and the march of immigration, benefits etc etc


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Does it really matter?

They will not win any amount of MP's next year and will never have to enact their manifesto. I am more interested in the reaction of the main parties who still think that it's purely a protest vote. I'm beginning to think that they don't understand that it's not a protest but a demand that they do something to stem the ever increasing march of the EU that make countries do what doesn't suit them individually and the march of immigration, benefits etc etc
		
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But are your comments not contradictory?

If, as you suspect, it is not a protest vote and their share of the popular vote holds up nationally they are likely to secure seats at Westminster.

What then?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2014)

I am desperately hoping that the 10% of Scots who voted for the Kippers were either white settlers or SNP's voting tactically.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am desperately hoping that the 10% of Scots who voted for the Kippers were either white settlers or SNP's voting tactically.
		
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Why?

Are you telling us that all Scots are happy with the EU?


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Voter apathy is the bigger concern imo. Around 33% turnout?  

It would be interesting to see UKIP get a seat up here, might shut Salmond up about Scots wanting to stay in Europe and not acknowledging some might not! That, and it would be a kind of karma for the friendly Scottish welcome that Nigel received up here.


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## c1973 (May 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am desperately hoping that the 10% of Scots who voted for the Kippers were either *white settlers* or SNP's voting tactically.
		
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White settlers? Not sure what to make of that. Is it only 'Whites' who vote UKIP? 

Plenty of Blacks etc voting UKIP, even saw some non 'whites' who were standing for election on a UKIP ticket.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2014)

The trend towards the right is widespread through the elections in Europe. The French National Front did very well on a platform of lower immigration and Muslim influence.

These are protest votes but if the main parties dont take heed and come up with policies that address peoples concerns then they may well move towards something more permanent.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am desperately hoping that the 10% of Scots who voted for the Kippers were either white settlers or SNP's voting tactically.
		
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White settlers ?!!


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## 2blue (May 26, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I think many who voted for them did so on the single issue of EU membership. And I think many, like me, did so purely to give the main parties a wake up call.

But I wonder how many voters actually know the policies of any of the parties?

Personally, I've visited each of the, now 4, main parties websites. And I've spoken to my local MP on several occasions. I'd like to think I'm not uninformed.
		
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BUT.....  now look what you've gone and done Bri


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			I admit to being worried by the number of people supporting UKIP with no knowledge of any of their policies on many major issues. Our regional news programme did a vox pop asking those who stated that they were going to vote UKIP what the party's policies were on the economy, education, defence, health and welfare.

Whilst I accept it may well have been edited not one of the respondents had any idea of those policies. Have any of us?

This is the problem with single issue parties.
		
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They aren't  a single issue Party but leaving the EU and returning political power to our parliament is what they were formed to achieve.

I agree with the sentiment that most voters don't know the policies of the parties they vote for and vote out of habit or sentiment.  If you take a look at UKIP's Web Site it lays down a number of principles that they wish to introduce.

http://www.ukip.org/issues


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## chrisd (May 26, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But are your comments not contradictory?

If, as you suspect, it is not a protest vote and their share of the popular vote holds up nationally they are likely to secure seats at Westminster.

What then?
		
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I can see why you would say that, all I can say is that, if the main parties haven't listened to the protests then they'll put the parties who can change things in to power. No, UKIP can't get into Parliament in significant numbers but will be a nuisance to whoever win, but, rest assured that the mood of the people across Europe seems to be that their fed up with the "master plan" and it's anything but what we voted to join way back. Unless things change then I believe the political face in Europe could be changed dramatically soon!


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			White settlers ?!!
		
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I think its a tablet for indigestion!


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