# Swing plane



## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Hi experts,

If the golf swing motion were made standing upright rather than in golf posture, what would that motion be? 

How would this differ between a 1 plane and a 2 plane swing? 

I'm keen to better understand the correct mechanics of the swing. Mine is too steep at the moment (I'm taking big divots and chunking short irons on the soft fairways).


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## bobmac (Dec 10, 2014)

Do you fade the ball at all?


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## Maninblack4612 (Dec 10, 2014)

Standing upright encourages a more horizontal shoulder turn and is more suited to a two plane swing, with the club swung up and in front of the body. Standing further from the ball & bending over more turns the shoulders in a steeper plane, and, if the arms move on the same plane, you have a flatter looking, one plane, swing where the club goes more behind you. 

All explained here:  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plane-Truth...98902&sr=8-1&keywords=plane+truth+for+golfers


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

A mild fade Bob, and not all the time. My bad shot is more of a slight push fade which goes way too high. With my irons i have been chopping into the turf too much and chunking it. I've been nailing my hybrids though - probably due to the thick sole making it impossible to dig in.  

I had a lesson last week and the pro identified that I'm too steep so I'm working on shallowing out my plane and swinging more around my body than up and down with my arms.

Just wondered what the golf swing would look like if you stood upright and took a regular swing (i.e as if the ball were at nearly waist height)? I think when you watch pros, or any video of a good swing, them being bent over makes it harder to see what the mechanical movements of the swing actually are. I'm hoping I'll better understand the correct motion if I can understand that.


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2014)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Just wondered what the golf swing would look like if you stood upright and took a regular swing (i.e as if the ball were at nearly waist height)? I think when you watch pros, or any video of a good swing, them being bent over makes it harder to see what the mechanical movements of the swing actually are. I'm hoping I'll better understand the correct motion if I can understand that.
		
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Interesting concept, but not a particularly realistic one imo, as there is a significant force - called gravity - that affects lots of things about the swing irrespective of the 'plane'.

But FWIW, I'd suspect a baseball type swing would be the result, That is, after all, exactly the situation that is happening except the ball is also moving - also something of significance! While not really considered, I believe most batters are 1-planers - who also bend arms.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Would the outcome, if applied to a golf swing, be something like Matt Kuchar? He doesn't seem to lift his hands in the back swing - just turns and the angle of his spine causes the rest to happen. Unless I'm not seeing what's really happening?


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## Maninblack4612 (Dec 10, 2014)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Would the outcome, if applied to a golf swing, be something like Matt Kuchar? He doesn't seem to lift his hands in the back swing - just turns and the angle of his spine causes the rest to happen. Unless I'm not seeing what's really happening?
		
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Matt is a one plane swinger. There's an interesting video on YouTube   Matt Kuchar Analysis (2009) by Chris O'Connell - â€¦: http://youtu.be/g-fU_Emoh4E where his swing is compared by his coach with Langer. It shows that Kuchar's shoulders rotate on a steeper plane than Langer's but Langer lifts his arms, Kuchar doesn't. It's an interesting video if the voice doesn't send you to sleep!

Also, Kuchar has long arms and, I bet, for his height, short legs. If you can imagine someone with really long arms & very long legs, they would be bound to look flat. I know, I have & I do!


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2014)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Would the outcome, if applied to a golf swing, be something like Matt Kuchar? He doesn't seem to lift his hands in the back swing - just turns and the angle of his spine causes the rest to happen. Unless I'm not seeing what's really happening?
		
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Kuchar is a bit of an illusion! Tall with very long arms and relatively short legs, so will always look a bit peculiar. Being a 1-planer simply magnifies that illusion!

What exactly are you trying to achieve? If it's merely getting a less steep swing, then forget the only slightly relevant imagery and focus on what the coach has suggested. He should also have given you a couple of drills (if not get in touch with him and ask for them) to help you get less steep - and to prevent you from getting too flat!


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Kuchar is a bit of an illusion! Tall with very long arms and relatively short legs, so will always look a bit peculiar. Being a 1-planer simply magnifies that illusion!

What exactly are you trying to achieve? If it's merely getting a less steep swing, then forget the only slightly relevant imagery and focus on what the coach has suggested. He should also have given you a couple of drills (if not get in touch with him and ask for them) to help you get less steep - and to prevent you from getting too flat!
		
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I'm following the drills I've been given and it's working.

I'm just trying to conceptually understand the mechanics of the golf swing. I like to learn why I'm doing what I'm being told to do, rather than just doing it, if that makes sense?


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2014)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I'm following the drills I've been given and it's working.

I'm just trying to conceptually understand the mechanics of the golf swing. I like to learn why I'm doing what I'm being told to do, rather than just doing it, if that makes sense?
		
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Absolutely does! Make sure your coach knows that's part of how you respond best, so he will explain 'why' when he makes a change. That way, you will be much more committed to the change. Learning is a partnership and different folk learn best in their own way. The 'Trust me, I'm a Pro' method never worked particularly well for me, though there have been times that it did/does!

Could well be that video type lesson could be beneficial - with coach selecting a 'model', comparing your swing alongside before and after the changes he wants, then providing drills to get closer to the 'desired' swing.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

He's actually excellent from that perspective - every lesson is a video lesson and he sends me a video by email to show me what I should be working on. I've also progressed very well under his guidance, so definitely the right coach for me.

I suppose the thing I haven't considered with him is what the desired swing would be, it's always been a case of dealing with the issues I'm confronted with on a continuous improvement kind of basis. Maybe that's a conversation to be had next time round, although realistically, I'm never going to have a beautiful swing but I've got an outside chance of having an effective one!

Getting the steepness that has crept in back out of my swing is objective number 1 for the moment, which is what got me on to thinking about the question I posed at the start of this thread.


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## the_coach (Dec 10, 2014)

too steep is mostly an issue over lack of connection between the arms & the upper bodies rotation. 

key moments to watch out for are right from the takeback where the arms are not connected to the chest turn but lifted independently away upwards.

here the indicator would be that straightways on movement the upper left arm moves away from the upper chest so from the dtl view you'd see a gap between the upper left arm. daylight, between upper left arm & the upper chest.

other key moment would be at the transition, when the upper body & arms wrongly move first & swing outwards so then the downswing has to be steep from there to get the club head to the ball at all.

good drill is get an old glove, fold it in two & put it between the left triceps & the chest wall (not tucked a ways up right under the armpit). with an 8i or 7i make 3/4 swings hands to shoulder height in the backswing not allowing the glove to fall out, should only drop as the swing winds up at the finish.

here's a vid showing where the ball would have to be, what plane you'd have to swing on in answer to your original question about standing straight up.

[video=youtube;qN6KfUW21-Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN6KfUW21-Q&amp;list=UUZYS9ltu5IVSsSIW-g425ig&amp;index=11[/video]


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 10, 2014)

the_coach said:



			too steep is mostly an issue over lack of connection between the arms & the upper bodies rotation. 

key moments to watch out for are right from the takeback where the arms are not connected to the chest turn but lifted independently away upwards.

here the indicator would be that straightways on movement the upper left arm moves away from the upper chest so from the dtl view you'd see a gap between the upper left arm. daylight, between upper left arm & the upper chest.

other key moment would be at the transition, when the upper body & arms wrongly move first & swing outwards so then the downswing has to be steep from there to get the club head to the ball at all.

good drill is get an old glove, fold it in two & put it between the left triceps & the chest wall (not tucked a ways up right under the armpit). with an 8i or 7i make 3/4 swings hands to shoulder height in the backswing not allowing the glove to fall out, should only drop as the swing winds up at the finish.

here's a vid showing where the ball would have to be, what plane you'd have to swing on in answer to your original question about standing straight up.
		
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Here's the youtube link as it appears to be blocked via the forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN6KfUW21-Q&spfreload=10


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 10, 2014)

Thanks Coach. That was very helpful - both the explanation and the video. 

Are there any alternative views to that presented in the video? Or is that widely accepted as being true?

I've seen quite a few videos suggesting the wrist motion is simply an up and down one. Would I be right in thinking that this video doesn't disagree with that, but the difference is in combining that with the rotation of the arms? 

I'm not sure that I've explained what I mean very well.


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## the_coach (Dec 10, 2014)

was just putting that vid up (thanks 'B-in-M' hadn't realized it was locked) to show you that if you were standing straightways up the ball would have to be on a very high tee opposite the middle of your torso to make any sort of a swing to connect, so more like a baseball swing. 
if the ball was on the ground there's no way you could reasonably swing a club to make contact if you were standing upright.
ball in golf is on the ground, you stand to the side of the ball that's why 'posture' & the forwards spine tilt has to be maintained 
(there's also a secondary spine tilt away from target caused by the fact that the right hand is lower on the handle than the left hand, so naturaly the right shoulder has to be a little ways lower than the left - as the stance gets wider this secondary spine tilt becomes more, largest with the driver as it's both the widest stance with the most forwards ball position that's also in the highest position off the ground on a high tee at address)

there are many planes that are different in one swing motion, there's a shoulder plane probably the best to concentrate on - to that the shoulders should rotate at around 90Âº to your forward spine tilt at address going back to the top of the swing, so why it's crucial to stay in your spine posture angle.

there's a shaft plane, 2 shaft planes in any one swing motion.
 so in any one swing motion the shaft plane below the hips, so below the area when the left hand/wrist sets is different to the shaft plane that's above the hips & the 'set', though the shaft plane above the hips & left wrist set, should be still around parallel to the shaft plane below the hips.

the left wrist/hand motion in the 'set' is 'upwards' where it sets or hinges on the snuff box joint where the thumb pad joints at the wrist. left wrist just moves upwards in the backswing & downwards into impact, the right wrist/hand just sets or hinges slightly backwards so the back of the right hand flexes backwards.
what the left hand/wrist does exactly is different to what the right hand/wrist does.

[video=youtube_share;STA6p8J1WiE]http://youtu.be/STA6p8J1WiE[/video]


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## sawtooth (Dec 11, 2014)

I had a tendency a while ago to get so steep that I would occasionally chunk drivers and woods of the tee and the ball would only go 100yds and come down with ice on - as they say.

I sorted this myself by following a couple of simple swing thoughts. A) keep my left arm as straight as possible backswing and downswing. B) dont focus on hitting at the ball, instead focus on swinging through to a high finish.

Obviously good posture, stance, ball position etc, is important too.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks sawtooth. That makes a lot of sense. A feeling of using the arms to hit the ball certainly makes it worse.

What's strange is I didn't notice the steepness creeping in but it's hard to get rid of it!


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