# Apple v FBI



## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

I only saw this for the first time this morning, but the FBI have the iPhone that belonged to the San Bernardino terrorists that killed 14 people and injured another 22.

Apple have refused to help unlock it and the FBI are in the process of taking them to court over it.

The little bit I read today said the FBI think they might be able to do it without Apple's help, and if they do, Apple want them to reveal how they did it so they can close the vulnerability.

Other IT companies such as Google and Microsoft are in support of Apple's case.

Am I going mad? The short version of my thoughts are "this is terrorism - all bets are off".

Thoughts?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

It says some rude words but this is worth a look as the situation may not be as clear cut as it seems.

[video=youtube_share;Ug2Yvftbjzk]https://youtu.be/Ug2Yvftbjzk[/video]


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## super hans (Mar 22, 2016)

this particular instance relates to an alleged terrorism act- i believe Apple's stance is 'where does it then end?' 

If I terrorised you and and your family (in the name of religion or not) should the FBI or similar bodies be allowed to infringe my privacy laws or personal property - its all very "American lawyers waiting to launch civil lawsuits" and little to do with national/personal security


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

Part 2

[video=youtube_share;pRCimfBO9OI]https://youtu.be/pRCimfBO9OI[/video]


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

super hans said:



			this particular instance relates to an alleged terrorism act- i believe Apple's stance is 'where does it then end?' 

If I terrorised you and and your family (in the name of religion or not) should the FBI or similar bodies be allowed to infringe my privacy laws or personal property - its all very "American lawyers waiting to launch civil lawsuits" and little to do with national/personal security
		
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And also once you have created the program to get round the encryption (as current one does not exist) how do you ensure it does not fall into hands of people that would use it for no good. Would you want Russia, China, North Korea to have it? And who authorities exactly when you can use the program and when you can not?


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

John McAfee has told the FBI exactly what they need to do to unlock the phone. It's not a difficult job for such a technically advanced organisation as the FBI. The reason they want Apple to unlock it for them is because they likely have a number of other phones they want hacking, so if Apple do it for them, they can backdoor a whole list of phones very quickly and easily without going through the process of breaking them down and taking them apart as McAfee suggested. Apple have been absolutely spot on refusing to do it for them, it sets a precedent, and if they allow backdoor access to the FBI it creates a vulnerability in their system which could be exploited through services such as Apple Pay.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

Believe this should have all been done on the quiet and behind the scenes without anyone knowing and protecting security


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## Robobum (Mar 22, 2016)

Strange logic here...

Apple refuse to cooperate with FBI to unlock this phone.

But if the FBI do unlock it, Apple want their cooperation??

GFY should be the reply


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## super hans (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Believe this should have all been done on the quiet and behind the scenes without anyone knowing and protecting security
		
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don't you think that starts an open season on anyone and everyone Phil?


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## fundy (Mar 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It says some rude words but this is worth a look as the situation may not be as clear cut as it seems.

[video=youtube_share;Ug2Yvftbjzk]https://youtu.be/Ug2Yvftbjzk[/video]
		
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well thats 20 minutes ill never get back where very little argument was provided hidden behind some pretty lame attempts to be funny


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It says some rude words but this is worth a look as the situation may not be as clear cut as it seems.

[video=youtube_share;Ug2Yvftbjzk]https://youtu.be/Ug2Yvftbjzk[/video]
		
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Very funny, and very informative. Thanks for posting it.


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

fundy said:



			well thats 20 minutes ill never get back where very little argument was provided hidden behind some pretty lame attempts to be funny
		
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I'm easy to please


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## fundy (Mar 22, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Very funny, and very informative. Thanks for posting it.
		
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we must have different sense of humour lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

super hans said:



			don't you think that starts an open season on anyone and everyone Phil?
		
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Possibly - it's a very thin line between protecting people's rights and protecting people. 

I would love Apple to allow FBI to get into the phone but then can understand Apples reluctance to allow them too


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Strange logic here...

Apple refuse to cooperate with FBI to unlock this phone.

But if the FBI do unlock it, Apple want their cooperation??

GFY should be the reply
		
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This was my first reaction, but I've mellowed somewhat after watching the videos.
Not sure which side I come down on now.

Apple have cooperated as much as they can (by providing iCloud backups from the phone's account) without writing software that could hack into every iPhone in the world.

If only the terrorist had the version with the fingerprint sensor.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

I'll summarise the problem.

Do you want your bank account to be hacked by terrorists?

If Yes: Support the FBI.

If No: Support Apple.


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## HickoryShaft (Mar 22, 2016)

Apple are treading on thin ice here IMO.

I know its a balance but in specific cases like this its not about personal security its about stopping these types of acts and this could help so is 100% justified (in this case).

Apple could have easily taken the phone and unlocked it without telling the FBI exactly how they did it and still had the back up of 99.5% of the general population who can see that its done for the right reasons

They could have also taken the stance that they would not do this in other circumstances (eg if it was a fraud other crime related reason)

Anyway the FBI should have just asked Samsung how to do it, I am sure they would be very helpful.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 22, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			I'll summarise the problem.

Do you want terrorists to carry on killing people?

If Yes: Support Apple

If No: Support the FBI.
		
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Fixed for you  :thup:


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2016)

Is this any different to the FBI etc opening and dissecting your computer? I presume that they can check those out without the computers doing the same lock and destroy after 10 goes at the password and no one blinks at that. I think this has more to do with Apple sales and PR than freedom of information etc.


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## Ethan (Mar 22, 2016)

This is more complicated then 'they are terrorists'. People bought iPhones with an expectation of privacy. Whether that relates to cheating on your taxes, having an affair or being a secret fan of Frozen, that is your concern. Apple is rightly concerned about building a back door for the Feds, because where will it end? It is a classic slippery slope issue. Apple has revealed they have received an additional list of requests from various Federal agencies looking for similar intrusion, and they weren't terrorists.

Remember also this story is playing out against the background of huge public concern in the US about Fed snooping of all sorts - emails, mobile phone calls, website use. 

I support Apple's stance, and so does Google, Microsoft and most others in the industry.


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## freddielong (Mar 22, 2016)

Do the terrorists still have a right to privacy if they are dead, I know that once you are dead you are no longer covered by data protection laws but not sure about privacy.


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## Ethan (Mar 22, 2016)

freddielong said:



			Do the terrorists still have a right to privacy if they are dead, I know that once you are dead you are no longer covered by data protection laws but not sure about privacy.
		
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This was reported as a technical one. Apple password protection uses increasing delays when wrong passwords are entered, and the FBI want to use a brute force method of getting in, and Apple says they would have to rewrite the iOS to do this and that would compromise every user. 

IT heads - is that right?

Anyway, I suspect the FBI has broken in, but doesn't want to reveal they have done so and cause consternation among liberty-loving Americans who distrust Big Government, so wants Apple to give them cover for doing so. And Apple may know this but don't want to be the scapegoat.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

[video=youtube;MG0bAaK7p9s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG0bAaK7p9s[/video]


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

freddielong said:



			Do the terrorists still have a right to privacy if they are dead, I know that once you are dead you are no longer covered by data protection laws but not sure about privacy.
		
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Guessing, I wouldn't have thought terrorists have a right to privacy even if they're alive as they lose most other rights if suspected of terrorism.
That isn't the issue though as Apple have already supplied the backups from the phone stored on iCloud.

The issue (as reported - not necessarily the truth) is that Apple don't want to be forced into writing software that could potentially compromise every iPhone on the planet.

As Ethan said above, Apple are saying even they can't hack in. All they can do is release a new OS that allows unlimited attempts at the passcode.

Can they do that and have it installed without releasing it for every iPhone to auto-update? When they test OS's they'll have specific phones to test on, but maybe phones sold to the public have no other method of updating the OS than the method we all use.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

[video=youtube;HqI0jbKGaT8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqI0jbKGaT8[/video]

McAfee vs the FBI. Absolutely spot on. The backdoor that the FBI are asking for is absolutely ludicrous.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			I'll summarise the problem.

Do you want your bank account to be hacked by terrorists?

If Yes: Support the FBI.

If No: Support Apple.
		
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Thats a rubbish argument, terrorists are the only people at the moment that are not hacking my bank account.

today of all days when another terrorist attack kills innocent IPhone owners, if you asked them victims would you let the FBI hack into your phone to prevent another attack. The answer would be a resounding yes.
Furthermore, what if the phone the FBI want to hack had the contact details of today's terrorists details.


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## Captainron (Mar 22, 2016)

There are blokes down the market who can get it unlocked in about 3 minutes. Just get it opened and don't tell Apple. If the phone belonged to a terrorist then they should just do it and stuff what Apple think


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## CheltenhamHacker (Mar 22, 2016)

Captainron said:



			There are blokes down the market who can get it unlocked in about 3 minutes. Just get it opened and don't tell Apple. If the phone belonged to a terrorist then they should just do it and stuff what Apple think
		
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How about if they aren't quite sure if they are a terrorist, but want to check.

How about if they think this person was going to kill someone.

How about if they wanted to prove a massive fraud in court.

etc etc, getting weaker and weaker. Once this power is unlocked, it's in the hands of whomeber wants it.

And once the US have the power, suddenly everyone else will as well. Would you want any other government to be able to hack your phone?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Apple refused to help the FBI who might have done it now anyway (hopefully) and Apple then want the FBI to tell them how. If I was the feds I'd be telling them what Apple told them... "you work it out"


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Thats a rubbish argument, terrorists are the only people at the moment that are not hacking my bank account.

today of all days when another terrorist attack kills innocent IPhone owners, if you asked them victims would you let the FBI hack into your phone to prevent another attack. The answer would be a resounding yes.
Furthermore, what if the phone the FBI want to hack had the contact details of today's terrorists details.
		
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Your argument only holds up if the backdoor that the FBI are asking for was the only way to break into an iPhone. It isn't. John McAfee has told the FBI exactly what they need to do to crack it, and even offered to do it for them. They're just being lazy and want this crack so that they can hack any phone they get their hands on. That is incredibly dangerous. If hackers managed to gain access to the crack, which would only be a matter of time as the FBI has been hacked countless times, then god only knows what could happen as a result. The details and private information including banking information of hundreds of millions of people would be in jeopardy.


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

Captainron said:



			There are blokes down the market who can get it unlocked in about 3 minutes. Just get it opened and don't tell Apple. If the phone belonged to a terrorist then they should just do it and stuff what Apple think
		
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The unlocking that the guys down the market (say they) can do is to unlock the carrier that the phone is locked to.

They can't bypass a pin code.


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## Region3 (Mar 22, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Apple refused to help the FBI who might have done it now anyway (hopefully) and Apple then want the FBI to tell them how. If I was the feds I'd be telling them what Apple told them... "you work it out"
		
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Not quite true to say they've refused to help.

They've refused to provide what the FBI asked them for, and the more I read about it the more I agree with them.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Not quite true to say they've refused to help.

They've refused to provide what the FBI asked them for, and the more I read about it the more I agree with them.
		
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Blimey, you do realise you have completely changed your point of view on this when you've read both sides of the story.

Look I'm sorry but that kind of open minded fair behaviour is not allowed on this board as forum rules say you must stick doggedly to any blinkered point of view no matter what the evidence against it is.  Shame on you sir, shame....


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## ger147 (Mar 22, 2016)

Do the FBI use iPhones themselves? I'd be having some fun if I was Apple...


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

The FBI have made themselves look like numpties as a result of this, it's actually quite shocking how wrong they've got it. They don't appear to understand what they were asking for and it raises some serious question about their understanding of electronic or cyber security.

If they don't need Apple's help, why did it take so long and a legal case to find that out? Are they incompetent or were they lying? Either way they don't look like good.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2016)

Generally people in the 'West' enjoy the freedom of Democracy; giving up a little bit of privacy in the way the FBI and UK government departments pursue terrorism is a small loss. Why would anyone whose is honest, law abiding etc. need to put (or have) anything dodgy or highly sensitive on their phones in the first place is beyond me so I couldn't give two hoots who examines my phone. 

Terrorism is an asymmetric activity that does not play by normal moral or society rules if you want to tie the hands of government agencies and give advantages to terror, drugs and criminal gangs/groups then agree with Apple and safeguard their communications.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

Why does anyone need keys to their car anyway?

Or keys to their house?

Or keys to their bank account?

Let's just leave everything open and nothing bad could possibly happen because democracy will save us!

The FBI have got this wrong. It really isn't that hard to see why.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

What if that iPhone had information about potential terrorist attacks and knowing the information could stop an attack and save lives ?

Is it worth allowing the FBI access with the possibility it could ?


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## ger147 (Mar 22, 2016)

If Apple's hand is forced then the inevitable outcome is every criminal in the world will be able to access your email, bank accounts etc. etc.

The FBI already has the know how to access the info on the one iPhone in question.  As has already been stated by others, they want a nice easy short cut to enable instant access to any iPhone they want whenever they want. If they get it, the criminal underworld will get it in short order thereafter and all hell will break loose.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

ger147 said:



			If Apple's hand is forced then the inevitable outcome is every criminal in the world will be able to access your email, bank accounts etc. etc.

The FBI already has the know how to access the info on the one iPhone in question.  As has already been stated by others, they want a nice easy short cut to enable instant access to any iPhone they want whenever they want. If they get it, the criminal underworld will get it in short order thereafter and all hell will break loose.
		
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Possibly a bit paranoid isn't it ? 

How does it get from the FBI to the Criminal underworld ? 

The FBI want this particular phone unlocked to allow them to check a terrorist phone - is it not worth Apple unlocking this phone for them ? 

It doesn't have to escalate further than that


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Surely a pandora's box whatever happens


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## ger147 (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Possibly a bit paranoid isn't it ? 

How does it get from the FBI to the Criminal underworld ? 

The FBI want this particular phone unlocked to allow them to check a terrorist phone - is it not worth Apple unlocking this phone for them ? 

It doesn't have to escalate further than that
		
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That's not what the FBI are asking for, they want a short cut created to bypass the encryption on ALL iPhones.  And no I'm not being paranoid, just stating what I believe is inevitable based on my understanding of what the FBI is asking for, how Apple iPhone encryption works and the past 15 years of doing this stuff to earn a living.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2016)

ger147 said:



			That's not what the FBI are asking for, they want a short cut created to bypass the encryption on ALL iPhones.  And no I'm not being paranoid, just stating what I believe is inevitable based on my understanding of what the FBI is asking for, how Apple iPhone encryption works and the past 15 years of doing this stuff to earn a living.
		
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Ok that's fair enough and didn't fully realise they wanted all that :thup:


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if that iPhone had information about potential terrorist attacks and knowing the information could stop an attack and save lives ?

Is it worth allowing the FBI access with the possibility it could ?
		
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Is it worth doing things to save people's lives? Of course it is. No dispute. But at what cost? Would you harm millions to save one? What's the balance? Who makes that call?

What was on that phone is lost, it's information that is encrypted and it's gone. It's no different to the same person writing something on a piece of paper and burning it.

You wouldn't expect the FBI to ask Apple to unburn that paper or make all paper in the future fireproof would you?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2016)

Well it don't seem to me that the FBI are winning neither are APPLE.

So who are the winners, oh the terrorists ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well it don't seem to me that the FBI are winning neither are APPLE.

So who are the winners, oh the terrorists ?
		
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Based on today's events, you're probably right sadly


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			Why does anyone need keys to their car anyway?

Or keys to their house?

Or keys to their bank account?

Let's just leave everything open and nothing bad could possibly happen because democracy will save us!

The FBI have got this wrong. It really isn't that hard to see why.
		
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You're just extrapolating to a silly extreme for the sake of argument and ...

1 You car maker has your key-code and DVLA its life et..

2 house keys delay not prevent access

3 your bank and HMRC or a Court can access your bank details/account.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2016)

drdel said:



			You're just extrapolating to a silly extreme for the sake of argument and ...
		
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No, I'm comparing the virtual issue of encryption with more tangible examples so that people who say "do away with encryption because I have nothing to hide" might better understand how problematic that is.

Taking away encryption means opening the bank vaults to every criminal on earth. And the (sad) truth is everyone cares more about money than freedom.


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## Big Whacker (Mar 22, 2016)

The FBI want access to the data stored on devices in a quick way that does not delay response.

Asking apple for a bypass program is acceptable.

Personal data is encrypted by the websites visited and not Apple.

Personally, I think Apple are shoite phones anyway.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2016)

I think Apple should give it up.

I've got a Samsung.


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## guest100718 (Mar 22, 2016)

They want apple to disable the phones feature that limits the amount of pin attempts so they can brute force it. I'm no fan boy but i agree that apple shouldnt be forced to do this,


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well it don't seem to me that the FBI are winning neither are APPLE.

So who are the winners, oh the terrorists ?
		
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No. The FBI and Apple are both winning. The FBI are winning because they'll eventually get access to the iPhone when they pull their finger out, and Apple will have successfully prevented the potential for cyber terrorists to access the information of hundreds of millions of their customers.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2016)

What if it turns out that there was information on this phone that could have prevented the attack in Brussels today. Will people still be saying that Apple were correct not to help the FBI access the phone?


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if it turns out that there was information on this phone that could have prevented the attack in Brussels today. Will people still be saying that Apple were correct not to help the FBI access the phone?
		
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Have you read the thread? The FBI are more than capable of accessing details in that phone. The FBI want a backdoor into EVERY iPhone. There's a difference.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2016)

The White House and the FBI say that they are simply asking for access to this one device. You and others on this thread say they want to be able to access every I Phone in the world. Why should I believe you and not them?


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## ger147 (Mar 22, 2016)

This is what the FBI say the FBI are asking for...

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-director-comments-on-san-bernardino-matter

...they want Apple to scrap the password guess encryption functionality in their OS i.e. this is not about a single handset. This would impact all iPhones and would put at risk 10's of millions of iPhone users personal details including bank accounts, email accounts etc. if it fell into the wrong hands.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

Even that report you quote says that it is only about the password on that phone. 

Having now watched the interview with McAfee talking about how to get into the phone it does raise further questions. If it is as simple as he said then....

1) Why haven't the FBI done it already

and

2) Why are Apple making such a fuss about having to rewrite their iOS for every phone if they clearly wouldn't have to? Why not just say "yep, no problem, bring it over to our office and we've got a couple of guys that will get you into the phone within the hour"


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## ger147 (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even that report you quote says that it is only about the password on that phone. 

Having now watched the interview with McAfee talking about how to get into the phone it does raise further questions. If it is as simple as he said then....

1) Why haven't the FBI done it already

and

2) Why are Apple making such a fuss about having to rewrite their iOS for every phone if they clearly wouldn't have to? Why not just say "yep, no problem, bring it over to our office and we've got a couple of guys that will get you into the phone within the hour"
		
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It's the equivalent of creating a virus. Software to get round the encryption doesn't currently exist. Once it is created it can be used on all iPhones (what the FBI want), and if it falls into the wrong hands then no iPhone is safe.

This is what Apple is objecting to and is why the FBI want Apple to do what they've asked rather than the McAfee option, which indidentally really is as simple as McAfee says.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2016)

Why don't the FBI give the phone to Apple, who can download all info onto a floppy disk then give phone and floppy disk back to the FBI.


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## bluewolf (Mar 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Why don't the FBI give the phone to Apple, who can download all info onto a floppy disk then give phone and floppy disk back to the FBI.
		
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Because that's not what the FBI want.. They want backdoor access to every iPhone on the market, and they're using a terrorist atrocity to try and get it..


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Because that's not what the FBI want.. They want backdoor access to every iPhone on the market, and they're using a terrorist atrocity to try and get it..
		
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It was the perfect opportunity for Apple to call the FBIs bluff. The FBI said it was only about access to this one phone so Apple could've taken the phone, unlocked it following the method laid out by McAfee and then handed it back. Apple are seen to be helping and the FBI get what they claimed to want.


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## bluewolf (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It was the perfect opportunity for Apple to call the FBIs bluff. The FBI said it was only about access to this one phone so Apple could've taken the phone, unlocked it following the method laid out by McAfee and then handed it back. Apple are seen to be helping and the FBI get what they claimed to want.
		
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Agreed.. And I'm far from an expert in this field (although there appears to be several thousand Apple devices in my house now with the Wife and kids all having them, as well as myself), but this would suggest that there is a lot going on in the background that we aren't aware of...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Why don't the FBI give the phone to Apple, who can download all info* onto a floppy disk* then give phone and floppy disk back to the FBI.
		
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How about they stick it on a Sinclair Spectrum 16K Ram pack.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It was the perfect opportunity for Apple to call the FBIs bluff. The FBI said it was only about access to this one phone so Apple could've taken the phone, unlocked it following the method laid out by McAfee and then handed it back. Apple are seen to be helping and the FBI get what they claimed to want.
		
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It may be more the fact that Apple are not comfortable with the perception of them hacking into their customer's phones.  Yes I know this can be seen as a one off and it is a very extreme circumstance.  But it will set a precedent. 

I know a lot of companies have moved to iPhones as they are more secure, for the very fact that they are encrypted.  My wife works for Rolls Royce and they have just done this as they are constantly under attack from over seas hackers wanting to get their hands on their data, as did my company.  And by Apple showing they are willing to break this may be a commercial risk they are not willing to take.  As they are not the biggest company in the world by a long way for nothing.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			It may be more the fact that Apple are not comfortable with the perception of them hacking into their customer's phones.  Yes I know this can be seen as a one off and it is a very extreme circumstance.  But it will set a precedent.
		
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I don't see why it should set a precedent. It's not hacking into a customer's phone. It's hacking into the phone of a dead terrorist. 

My opinion is that anyone that supports Apple on this should be ashamed of themselves. And if that phone does have information on it that could have prevented the attack in Brussels and they could have unlocked it without compromising their iOS like McAfee has suggested then Apple have blood on their hands. As do the FBI if they could have unlocked it themselves using the same method.


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## davidy233 (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't see why it should set a precedent. It's not hacking into a customer's phone. It's hacking into the phone of a dead terrorist. 

My opinion is that anyone that supports Apple on this should be ashamed of themselves. And if that phone does have information on it that could have prevented the attack in Brussels and they could have unlocked it without compromising their iOS like McAfee has suggested then Apple have blood on their hands. As do the FBI if they could have unlocked it themselves using the same method.
		
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Utter nonsense


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			How about they stick it on a Sinclair Spectrum 16K Ram pack. 

Click to expand...

A what &#128563; Nah I like floppy things.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Because that's not what the FBI want.. They want backdoor access to every iPhone on the market, and they're using a terrorist atrocity to try and get it..
		
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If that is the case then both party's are playing games with our security.


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## Region3 (Mar 23, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Blimey, you do realise you have completely changed your point of view on this when you've read both sides of the story.

Look I'm sorry but that kind of open minded fair behaviour is not allowed on this board as forum rules say you must stick doggedly to any blinkered point of view no matter what the evidence against it is.  Shame on you sir, shame....   

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I feel ashamed and dirty. Just goes to show though, things aren't always as simple as they may first appear to be.

If it really is as simple as McAfee says it is to get the info from one phone, and the FBI haven't already done it, they need to give their heads a wobble.


A question for the more tech savvy amongst us... As I understand it the issue is getting into the phone which would obviously decrypt all the info on it to display it to the user.
If the phone was physically opened as McAfee suggests and all the encrypted info copied onto something they could read, is the encryption easy to break or would they need help with that as well?


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## guest100718 (Mar 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if it turns out that there was information on this phone that could have prevented the attack in Brussels today. Will people still be saying that Apple were correct not to help the FBI access the phone?
		
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What if it turns out the terrorists could easily hack your phone, use its gps to pin point where you are and plant a bomb that kills you and many others because you were happy to have a device with weakened security?


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## Jimaroid (Mar 23, 2016)

Region3 said:



			If the phone was physically opened as McAfee suggests and all the encrypted info copied onto something they could read, is the encryption easy to break or would they need help with that as well?
		
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Lots of ifs and unknowns but as a rough answer is it takes a very very long time to brute force decrypt (which is sequentially trying every possible combination of key)

"AES permits the use of 256-bit keys. Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires 2[SUP]128[/SUP] times more computational power than a 128-bit key. 50 supercomputers that could check a billion billion (10[SUP]18[/SUP]) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would, in theory, require about 3Ã—10[SUP]51[/SUP] years to exhaust the 256-bit key space."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack

By the way, McAffee is a lunatic. He knew what he was talking about in 1995 but this is 20 years later and a long time after he sold the McAffee company and he took his $100m fortune to live in a jungle in Belize consuming every illicit drug he could get his hands on.

He's kind of right, but he's also insane.


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## guest100718 (Mar 23, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			Lots of ifs and unknowns but as a rough answer is it takes a very very long time to brute force decrypt (which is sequentially trying every possible combination of key)

"AES permits the use of 256-bit keys. Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires 2[SUP]128[/SUP] times more computational power than a 128-bit key. 50 supercomputers that could check a billion billion (10[SUP]18[/SUP]) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would, in theory, require about 3Ã—10[SUP]51[/SUP] years to exhaust the 256-bit key space."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack

By the way, McAffee is a lunatic. He knew what he was talking about in 1995 but this is 20 years later and a long time after he sold the McAffee company and he took his $100m fortune to live in a jungle in Belize consuming every illicit drug he could get his hands on.

He's kind of right, but he's also insane. 

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Yep, which is why the FBI want to disable the max pin attempts, as it won't take to long to figure out a numerical Pin


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## Region3 (Mar 23, 2016)

Jimaroid said:



			Lots of ifs and unknowns but as a rough answer is it takes a very very long time to brute force decrypt (which is sequentially trying every possible combination of key)

"AES permits the use of 256-bit keys. Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires 2[SUP]128[/SUP] times more computational power than a 128-bit key. 50 supercomputers that could check a billion billion (10[SUP]18[/SUP]) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would, in theory, require about 3Ã—10[SUP]51[/SUP] years to exhaust the 256-bit key space."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack
		
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So even if they copy the data - a la McAfee - if the data is encrypted they still have a tough job to read it?

In which case it's not just Apple they need help from, if the info is encrypted by a third party developer?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2016)

Dan2501 said:



			Your argument only holds up if the backdoor that the FBI are asking for was the only way to break into an iPhone. It isn't. John McAfee has told the FBI exactly what they need to do to crack it, and even offered to do it for them. They're just being lazy and want this crack so that they can hack any phone they get their hands on. That is incredibly dangerous. If hackers managed to gain access to the crack, which would only be a matter of time as the FBI has been hacked countless times, then god only knows what could happen as a result. The details and private information including banking information of hundreds of millions of people would be in jeopardy.
		
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Your deluded if you think that's not already the case!


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Your deluded if you think that's not already the case!
		
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The FBI have hacked this iPhone long ago. They are just looking for cover from Apple because so many Americans are paranoid about Feds snooping. Apple are wisely refusing to be the scapegoat and to tank their most valuable product.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2016)

It goes on the world over. Not just America, phones are monitored and intercepted. Cell site triangulation used to determine location etc. 

These things are all common practice and probably only the tip of the iceberg. 

Police Scotland are under investigation at present for doing this. If people want to intercept and read my text messages arranging my golf or telling the wife I love her then so be it, I've nothing to hide.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2016)

In order to 'suffer' from this method/backdoor the 'hacker' would need physical possession of your phone.  All this waffle about access to bank accounts etc. is wide of the mark.

The chances of your phone being lost/found/stolen by someone with access to this particular 'backdoor' is pretty remote.

but hey why let logic get in the way of scaremongering.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 23, 2016)

Region3 said:



			In which case it's not just Apple they need help from, if the info is encrypted by a third party developer?
		
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Maybe, yes, if what's inside is also encrypted.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			What if it turns out the terrorists could easily hack your phone, use its gps to pin point where you are and plant a bomb that kills you and many others because you were happy to have a device with weakened security?
		
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Why would a terrorist want to hack my phone to then target me with an explosion when they are having a great deal of success with their current tactics which are to attack seemingly random targets which makes them harder to predict and prevent?


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Your deluded if you think that's not already the case!
		
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But not because of a failure in Apple's security!


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 23, 2016)

Region3 said:



			So even if they copy the data - a la McAfee - if the data is encrypted they still have a tough job to read it?

In which case it's not just Apple they need help from, if the info is encrypted by a third party developer?
		
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That would depend on how good the developer was, it is very easy to write encryption software that is insecure.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2016)

Well now the FBI have managed to break into the phone, wonder if this is going to start another months arguing of how and who did it.

off to ASDA to buy me popcorn.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2016)

Perhaps this solution suits all parties. Apple were not compliant, the FBI get into the phone.


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## jp5 (Mar 29, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Perhaps this solution suits all parties. Apple were not compliant, the FBI get into the phone.
		
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Not sure it suits Apple as it's now been shown there is a security vulnerability which they aren't aware of! Think they should have complied with the FBI's request in the first place.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2016)

Is any software 100% safe? They can only make it as safe as is possible but there will always be a hacker out there who can crack a code. A bit like car theft or burglary really. They can stop 99.9999999% of people, you can never stop the elite thieves. Apple have shown their phone is secure to most people and it is probably the most secure out in the market at the moment. They can do no more. In their view they have taken the moral ground, argue about that but that is their perspective, and the phone security has stood up pretty well.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 29, 2016)

This is very interesting now. It's showed the FBI up as somewhat incompetent and proves that what they were asking for was the wrong thing in the first place. Oops!


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2016)

OMG!

The FBI might know I'm having mince for tea. Hope our lass has put extra on just in case we get raided.

How many million calls and texts are made every minute? Do you honestly think the FBI listens randomly?

OMG! The criminals might get hold of the software key! Great, they might know I have an account with Barctander, but they don't know my password or pin or DOB.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			OMG!

The FBI might know I'm having mince for tea. Hope our lass has put extra on just in case we get raided.

How many million calls and texts are made every minute? Do you honestly think the FBI listens randomly?

OMG! The criminals might get hold of the software key! Great, they might know I have an account with Barctander, but they don't know my password or pin or DOB.
		
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You're missing the point, Brian. Just because we have nothing to hide doesn't mean that someone should have free scope to look.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			You're missing the point, Brian. Just because we have nothing to hide doesn't mean that someone should have free scope to look.
		
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I'm not missing the point at all. I genuinely don't care if they listen in on my calls. If I'm happy to hold a conversation in a crowded pub with someone, would I care if they listened in to my phone conversations?

if it's something personal I'll do it face to face anyway. 

Now if it was freedom to bug my home I'd be jumping up and down, seriously jumping up and down. But as for my phone, not bothered in the slightest.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not missing the point at all. I genuinely don't care if they listen in on my calls. If I'm happy to hold a conversation in a crowded pub with someone, would I care if they listened in to my phone conversations?

if it's something personal I'll do it face to face anyway. 

*Now if it was freedom to bug my home I'd be jumping up and down, seriously jumping up and down. But as for my phone, not bothered in the slightest*.
		
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But for most people now, if you wanted some data or information for nefarious purposes, you would get much more by looking on someones phone or tablet than you would by looking at a camera image of someone sat on their sofa watching golf on Sky Sports 4.


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not missing the point at all. I genuinely don't care if they listen in on my calls. If I'm happy to hold a conversation in a crowded pub with someone, would I care if they listened in to my phone conversations?

if it's something personal I'll do it face to face anyway. 

Now if it was freedom to bug my home I'd be jumping up and down, seriously jumping up and down. But as for my phone, not bothered in the slightest.
		
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I'm glad it doesn't concern you, but it concerns me greatly. Especially when you consider what information people can get from modern, GPS enabled phones. 
Just because I have nothing to hide, doesn't mean that I trust faceless entities with all my information.


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## Ethan (Mar 29, 2016)

So the headline is that the FBI now admits that it did what it could always have done but said that it couldn't because it didn't want to admit it before?


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## Crawfy (Mar 29, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Well now the FBI have managed to break into the phone, wonder if this is going to start another months arguing of how and who did it.

off to ASDA to buy me popcorn.
		
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I reckon they took it to that wee guy up the High St who can unlock anything for a tenner...


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2016)

Crawfy said:



			I reckon they took it to that wee guy up the High St who can unlock anything for a tenner...

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Yup like when they eventually found Bin Laden, he was at home. Why did they not knock on his front door in the first place.


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## larmen (Mar 29, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			OMG! The criminals might get hold of the software key! Great, they might know I have an account with Barctander, but they don't know my password or pin or DOB.
		
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They probably got that well before the FBI hacked the iPhone.


Should we have a guess if the FBI has actually found something useful on that phone? It might just be a big fuss for nothing in the 1st place.


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## Simbo (Mar 29, 2016)

There's no way the FBI don't have access to someone who could have got info from this phone long ago. Looks like they were just trying to shift the onus away from themselves by asking Apple to do it.
I agree with Apple here, the government were looking for an easy way to spy into people's phones with the blame lying somewhere away from themselves, using a terrorist atrocity as an excuse. They be telling everyone "we only want to do it with terrorists" etc. Once they have the backdrop and the law on their side there will be 2 bit street pounding cops hacking into corner hanging drug dealers phones.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2016)

Great news, hopefully prevents further atrocities and serious crimes. When it comes to a nations security I'm happy to support the authorities using whatever means to protect my family and friends and myself. 

:thup:


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2016)

Seems like the FBI have agreed to open another phone. 
Am getting fat on the popcorn.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Seems like the FBI have agreed to open another phone. 
Am getting fat on the popcorn.
		
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Just fat :rofl::whoo:


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just fat :rofl::whoo:[/QUOTE

yes honest burp.
		
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