# Life means Life - again



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26236225

Seems right to me - in the 'rare and exception' cases.

Another battle with ECHR coming up? I expect some sort of compromise - like a review after 40 years - to be the result.


----------



## phildunphy (Feb 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26236225

Seems right to me - in the 'rare and exception' cases.

Another battle with ECHR coming up? I expect some sort of compromise - like a review after 40 years - to be the result.
		
Click to expand...

good, that should be minimum!!


----------



## Fyldewhite (Feb 18, 2014)

To me this has been a real non-story. Just semantics around the wording of the law and only talking about ~50 cases in total. Any change will have no real impact on any of them. They will all be locked up until they die (as they should be). I probably agree that they should be reviewed as with any decision where the impact will last for maybe 50-60 years - common sense.  The fact that they would be reviewed would be very unlikely to result in anyone being released but would just confirm that the "whole life" tarrif was still appropriate. Just stiring up a bit of "anti europe" feeling over not very much IMO.


----------



## srixon 1 (Feb 18, 2014)

It will only be a punishment if they are locked up in a padded cell with nothing to do. 40 - 50 years in a private room with all the amenities is not a punishment.


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 18, 2014)

srixon 1 said:



			It will only be a punishment if they are locked up in a padded cell with nothing to do. 40 - 50 years in a private room with all the amenities is not a punishment.
		
Click to expand...

Really? I wouldn't fancy it much.

Are they really getting a whole life sentence to punish them?

I thought it was more to do with protecting the rest of us.


----------



## drawboy (Feb 18, 2014)

My attitude has always been the the punishment for any crime has to be enough of a deterrent for the potential perpetrator to have to think twice before committing the crime. With the exception of crimes of passion which are carried out in the moment usually without thought for any consequence, as these will never be prevented.
If anyone thinks it is a good idea to rob a post office but they think "Hold on if I get caught then I'll do 40 years without getting out" then that sentence has done it's job as a deterrent. But and it is a big BUT. That deterrent has to be enforced properly with no leniency. If the judiciary namby pamby then it is a total waste of time.
If a crime carries 40 years then it has to carry 40 years, no parole.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2014)

drawboy said:



			My attitude has always been the the punishment for any crime has to be enough of a deterrent for the potential perpetrator to have to think twice before committing the crime. With the exception of crimes of passion which are carried out in the moment usually without thought for any consequence, as these will never be prevented.
If anyone thinks it is a good idea to rob a post office but they think "Hold on if I get caught then I'll do 40 years without getting out" then that sentence has done it's job as a deterrent. But and it is a big BUT. That deterrent has to be enforced properly with no leniency. If the judiciary namby pamby then it is a total waste of time.
If a crime carries 40 years then it has to carry 40 years, no parole.
		
Click to expand...

I do follow your point but taking to the extreme, if you gave a 40 sentence for parking on double yellow lines then it would probably stop people doing it, they would be more aware that it could block emergency services from gaining access.

I am no fan of the COHR but in this case I can see their point.  No matter how horrendous the crimes committed by people like Rose West  her sentence could be reviewed after say 30 years.   She probably would not be released but it would be a sign that we are more humane than her.


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Really? I wouldn't fancy it much.

Are they really getting a whole life sentence to punish them?

*I thought it was more to do with protecting the rest of us.*

Click to expand...

Death penalty. 
We would be protected & reviews would not be required. 
The nation would be saving money & prisons would not be so crowded.
In the right cases, where's the problem?


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			Death penalty. 
We would be protected & reviews would not be required. 
The nation would be saving money & prisons would not be so crowded.
In the right cases, where's the problem?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

What if ten years later that person is found to be actually not guilty ? 

We no longer live in an eye for an eye society - killing a killer doesn't make it right


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			Death penalty. 
We would be protected & reviews would not be required. 
The nation would be saving money & prisons would not be so crowded.
*In the right cases*, where's the problem?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



*What if ten years later that person is found to be actually not guilty ? *

We no longer live in an eye for an eye society - killing a killer doesn't make it right
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly why I said 'in the right cases', i.e. where ther is NO doubt or when there's a confession.
The case of the poor soldier, Lee Rigby, where the crime was recorded & the murdering *******s admitted to doing it.
What is the point of keeping such people alive?


*Slime*.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			In the *right* cases, where's the problem?
		
Click to expand...

*This,* is the problem. How do we determine the "right" cases, and be absolutely 100% dead certain that it will not be overturned in future years with greater technology?


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			where ther is NO doubt or when there's a confession.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

But that isn't how people are confvcted in court. They are convicted "beyond all reasonable doubt", not when there is no doubt.

Also, confessions don't mean anything. I can confess to anything, for a variety of reasons! Doesn't mean I did it, and therefore it wouldn't be right to kill me on the back of it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			That's exactly why I said 'in the right cases', i.e. where ther is NO doubt or when there's a confession.
The case of the poor soldier, Lee Rigby, where the crime was recorded & the murdering *******s admitted to doing it.
What is the point of keeping such people alive?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Because two killings don't cancel each other out 

What if they are deemed mentally ill ?

Sorry but the death penalty IMO is wrong and deserves to stay in the dark ages


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

I said where there is NO doubt! 
Okay, the confessions one is a bit weak  but there are plenty which are proven not just 'beyond reasonable doubt' but where there actually is 'no doubt'.

*Slime*.


----------



## JCW (Feb 18, 2014)

I was in the Philippines last month and spent some time in Davao and samal Island , check it out , wonderful place and cheap too , Like it that much I bought some land there on a golf resort with the view to retire there soon or at very least built a holiday home , lovely spot and good course designed by Andy Dye . The crime rate  there is almost zero , the mayor has been in power there for 25 years and if you do crime of any sort over there you are given a few warnings then your village chief or head is advised and you and your family are advised clean up your act or ship out as you are now black listed , carry on and the DDS ( Davao Death squad ) will come along and just shoot you , end off , not right or human rights and all that but it works , most of the people there like the way their city is and nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out or even report them , suits everyone except the crooks , its a safe place let me tell you , check it out on the net ...........we are too soft over here and its getting out of hand at times ................


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			I was in the Philippines last month and spent some time in Davao and samal Island , check it out , wonderful place and cheap too , Like it that much I bought some land there on a golf resort with the view to retire there soon or at very least built a holiday home , lovely spot and good course designed by Andy Dye . The crime rate  there is almost zero , the mayor has been in power there for 25 years and if you do crime of any sort over there you are given a few warnings then your village chief or head is advised and you and your family are advised clean up your act or ship out as you are now black listed , carry on and the DDS ( Davao Death squad ) will come along and just shoot you , end off , not right or human rights and all that but it works , most of the people there like the way their city is and nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out or even report them , suits everyone except the crooks , its a safe place let me tell you , check it out on the net ...........we are too soft over here and its getting out of hand at times ................
		
Click to expand...

Please don't tell me you're genuinely backing this method of crime deterrant?!?!?

So an unknown group of people, answering to one or two people, are able to go around killing people that they deem fit.

If you genuinely believe that this is what is needed, then I sincerely hope that this is just you an this isn't a widespread belief


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2014)

Slime said:



			I said where there is NO doubt! 
Okay, the confessions one is a bit weak  but there are plenty which are proven not just 'beyond reasonable doubt' but where there actually is 'no doubt'.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Are there really "plenty" proven behind no doubt ? 

Think you would be very surprised


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			I was in the Philippines last month and spent some time in Davao and samal Island , check it out , wonderful place and cheap too , Like it that much I bought some land there on a golf resort with the view to retire there soon or at very least built a holiday home , lovely spot and good course designed by Andy Dye . The crime rate  there is almost zero , the mayor has been in power there for 25 years and if you do crime of any sort over there you are given a few warnings then your village chief or head is advised and you and your family are advised clean up your act or ship out as you are now black listed , carry on and the DDS ( Davao Death squad ) will come along and just shoot you , end off , not right or human rights and all that but it works , most of the people there like the way their city is and nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out or even report them , suits everyone except the crooks , its a safe place let me tell you , check it out on the net ...........we are too soft over here and its getting out of hand at times ................
		
Click to expand...

Yeah really safe - controlled by Marshall law and highly illegal. That's pretty much law by terror


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah really safe - controlled by Marshall law and highly illegal. That's pretty much law by terror
		
Click to expand...

You're going to have to stop agreeing with me this evening Phil, it's making me question my own views


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Because two killings don't cancel each other out 
*
What if they are deemed mentally ill ?

Sorry but the death penalty IMO is wrong and deserves to stay in the dark ages
		
Click to expand...

It's not about cancelling each other out ............ or revenge ............ or an eye for an eye.
It's about ridding our society of dangerous individuals who may eventually get released and have the capacity to re-offend.
If they are so mentally ill that they rape children or murder people because they represent our armed forces then, quite frankly, we can't help them but we can help everyone else by removing them from society, permanently.
Oh, and anyone who interferes with kids is, to my mind, mentally ill.

*Slime*.


----------



## JCW (Feb 18, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Please don't tell me you're genuinely backing this method of crime deterrant?!?!?

So an unknown group of people, answering to one or two people, are able to go around killing people that they deem fit.

If you genuinely believe that this is what is needed, then I sincerely hope that this is just you an this isn't a widespread belief
		
Click to expand...

They not unknown , most people think they are part of the police force , I not saying I back the idea , I just saying it works and almost everyone there prefer to be safe , only people who don't like it are those that break the law like drug dealers , robbers etc etc , we too soft over here , we have now deported captain hook back to the middle east but not before he used up millions of tax payers money to preach hate over here in public asking others to kill , we house the guy while he did it then gave him top lawyers and millions to pay for them , over there he would have got a few warnings and that's it , so where do you draw the line .


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			They not unknown , most people think they are part of the police force , I not saying I back the idea , I just saying it works and almost everyone there prefer to be safe , only people who don't like it are those that break the law like drug dealers , robbers etc etc , we too soft over here , we have now deported captain hook back to the middle east but not before he used up millions of tax payers money to preach hate over here in public asking others to kill , we house the guy while he did it then gave him top lawyers and millions to pay for them , over there he would have got a few warnings and that's it , so where do you draw the line .
		
Click to expand...


Of course it works - it's an area controlled by murder and terror who are also breaking the law


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			They not unknown , most people think they are part of the police force , I not saying I back the idea , I just saying it works and almost everyone there prefer to be safe , only people who don't like it are those that break the law like drug dealers , robbers etc etc , we too soft over here , we have now deported captain hook back to the middle east but not before he used up millions of tax payers money to preach hate over here in public asking others to kill , we house the guy while he did it then gave him top lawyers and millions to pay for them , over there he would have got a few warnings and that's it , so where do you draw the line .
		
Click to expand...

Quote "_nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out "
_
I am much happier spending a bit more money (nothing in the grand scheme of things) to make sure we have the correct outcome, than letting some faceless group shoot whoever they like.

You have no idea whether people over there like it. I would imagine they would be scared to criticise it, for fear of the Death Squad visiting.


----------



## JCW (Feb 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah really safe - controlled by Marshall law and highly illegal. That's pretty much law by terror
		
Click to expand...

 You don't know what you are talking about , no marshall law over there , everyone is free to do what you want as long as you respect the law that's why lots of Americans , brits , Koreans , Japanese and others retire there because its a safe city , you showing your lack of knowledge about the place , you just having a dig as you did in the HW thread . please don't do that as you only showing yourself up , check your facts before you jump


----------



## JCW (Feb 18, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Quote "_nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out "
_
I am much happier spending a bit more money (nothing in the grand scheme of things) to make sure we have the correct outcome, than letting some faceless group shoot whoever they like.

You have no idea whether people over there like it. I would imagine they would be scared to criticise it, for fear of the Death Squad visiting.
		
Click to expand...

I have been over , lived there so I do know what I am talking about , I played golf with locals over there , and if you play golf over there you got money and I chatted about it to these people and they not bothered about it ........no cime means their business are not likely to get robbed , if you read what I wrote you will see they don't just shoot you , you given warnings , more then one and also given the chance to move out of the area if you want to carry out your lifestyle of crime , just do it elsewhere


----------



## doublebogey7 (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			I was in the Philippines last month and spent some time in Davao and samal Island , check it out , wonderful place and cheap too , Like it that much I bought some land there on a golf resort with the view to retire there soon or at very least built a holiday home , lovely spot and good course designed by Andy Dye . The crime rate  there is almost zero , the mayor has been in power there for 25 years and if you do crime of any sort over there you are given a few warnings then your village chief or head is advised and you and your family are advised clean up your act or ship out as you are now black listed , carry on and the DDS ( Davao Death squad ) will come along and just shoot you , end off , not right or human rights and all that but it works , most of the people there like the way their city is and nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out or even report them , suits everyone except the crooks , its a safe place let me tell you , check it out on the net ...........we are too soft over here and its getting out of hand at times ................
		
Click to expand...

I have checked it out on the net and find that the Philippines has a homicide rate over 4 times that of the UK.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

There is a whole lot of nonsense talk in the press about our crime rate when all the statistics show that it is very low compared to most of the rest of the world.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			I have been over , lived there so I do know what I am talking about , I played golf with locals over there , and if you play golf over there you got money and I chatted about it to these people and they not bothered about it ........no cime means their business are not likely to get robbed , if you read what I wrote you will see they don't just shoot you , you given warnings , more then one and also given the chance to move out of the area if you want to carry out your lifestyle of crime , just do it elsewhere
		
Click to expand...

What about those people that don't have money? They are likely the ones to be picked on and controlled out of fear of the DDI.

I appreciate the warnings etc, but this doesn't exactly sound like a thorough legal system. What if there were witchunts, with innocent people being accused repeatedly by their neighbours, before they eventually get shot by the DDI for "repeated" crimes.

I'm pretty happy with our current system, with no irreversible death penalty at the end.


----------



## JCW (Feb 18, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What about those people that don't have money? They are likely the ones to be picked on and controlled out of fear of the DDI.

I appreciate the warnings etc, but this doesn't exactly sound like a thorough legal system. What if there were witchunts, with innocent people being accused repeatedly by their neighbours, before they eventually get shot by the DDI for "repeated" crimes.

I'm pretty happy with our current system, with no irreversible death penalty at the end.
		
Click to expand...

All I can say that they don't target the poor or bully anyone , I have spoke to caddies , bar staff , hotel staff , taxi drivers , restaurant owners , all say the same , that's a fact , put it too you this way , known thief breaks into your home robs you gets caught and gets some soft  poor sentence and is out in weeks on good behaviour and then comes round and robs you again because he has a habit , I could go but this guy does not stop , why because we are soft over here and he knows he get a little time , he can handle that , can you handle your home being  broken into , I have had it done to me twice , its not very nice I can tell you , the guy was a repeat offender and he is still doing it , has a drug habit so they send him to a clinic to clean his act up , good boy for a bit then comes out and carries on , over 100 convictions for robbery , we are paying for in to rob us in a way , lock him up and throw the key away I say , these people are of no use to anyone , in the old days we sent them to Australia


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2014)

JCW said:



			All I can say that they don't target the poor or bully anyone , I have spoke to caddies , bar staff , hotel staff , taxi drivers , restaurant owners , all say the same , that's a fact , put it too you this way , known thief breaks into your home robs you gets caught and gets some soft  poor sentence and is out in weeks on good behaviour and then comes round and robs you again because he has a habit , I could go but this guy does not stop , why because we are soft over here and he knows he get a little time , he can handle that , can you handle your home being  broken into , I have had it done to me twice , its not very nice I can tell you , the guy was a repeat offender and he is still doing it , has a drug habit so they send him to a clinic to clean his act up , good boy for a bit then comes out and carries on , over 100 convictions for robbery , we are paying for in to rob us in a way , lock him up and throw the key away I say , these people are of no use to anyone , in the old days we sent them to Australia
		
Click to expand...

Totally against everything a Humane society stands for!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davao_death_squads

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killings_and_forced_disappearances_in_the_Philippines

Notice the several condemnations in General Assembly of UN!

What gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to describe that some folk 'are no use to anyone'! Some of these folk are simply victims, with the REAL criminals being their suppliers!

as for Convict Shipping ...Ah yes. Late 18th-Early 19th Century. What a humane society that was! Slavery was still a big earner for UK, particularly Bristol and Bath!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 18, 2014)

Foxholer said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26236225

Seems right to me - in the 'rare and exception' cases.

Another battle with ECHR coming up? I expect some sort of compromise - like a review after 40 years - to be the result.
		
Click to expand...

I think the yanks have this one covered 100yrs for murder if you serve all your sentence you can leave no prob.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Totally against everything a Humane society stands for!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davao_death_squads

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killings_and_forced_disappearances_in_the_Philippines


Notice the several condemnations in General Assembly of UN!

What gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to describe that some folk 'are no use to anyone'! Some of these folk are simply victims, with the REAL criminals being their suppliers!

as for Convict Shipping ...Ah yes. Late 18th-Early 19th Century. What a humane society that was! Slavery was still a big earner for UK, particularly Bristol and Bath!
		
Click to expand...

Bristol yes.  Not sure about Bath, you cant sail very big ships out of Bath.   Liverpool more likely.


----------



## JustOne (Feb 19, 2014)

doublebogey7 said:



			I have checked it out on the net and find that the Philippines has a homicide rate over 4 times that of the UK.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

There is a whole lot of nonsense talk in the press about our crime rate when all the statistics show that it is very low compared to most of the rest of the world.
		
Click to expand...


Of course it is - as JCW explains above - there's death squads killing the criminals  that's going to warp any statistics :whoo:


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Bristol yes.  Not sure about Bath, you cant sail very big ships out of Bath.   Liverpool more likely.
		
Click to expand...

Not so much the actual trade, but the subsequent use of the profits. Bath's elegance was built from the proceeds of it - the Royal crescent for example.

Liverpool was certainly a major player in both areas!

And, of course, London was in the Centre of it - from the start - in fact had the monopoly, by Royal Charter! But that's London's particular specialism!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 19, 2014)

JCW said:



			I was in the Philippines last month and spent some time in Davao and samal Island , check it out , wonderful place and cheap too , Like it that much I bought some land there on a golf resort with the view to retire there soon or at very least built a holiday home , lovely spot and good course designed by Andy Dye . The crime rate  there is almost zero , the mayor has been in power there for 25 years and if you do crime of any sort over there you are given a few warnings then your village chief or head is advised and you and your family are advised clean up your act or ship out as you are now black listed , carry on and the DDS ( Davao Death squad ) will come along and just shoot you , end off , not right or human rights and all that but it works , most of the people there like the way their city is and nobody knows who this DDS is or want to find out or even report them , suits everyone except the crooks , its a safe place let me tell you , check it out on the net ...........we are too soft over here and its getting out of hand at times ................
		
Click to expand...

Sounds lovely, but it's nothing new as I'm sure vigilante death squads was one of Mrs Thatchers more extreme policies that got vetoed by the cabinet at the time.

Do they do any moonlighting, so if you slip them 10 dollars they can take out some poor people as well? EYDDS.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I am no fan of the COHR but in this case I can see their point.  No matter how horrendous the crimes committed by people like Rose West  her sentence could be reviewed after say 30 years.   She probably would not be released but it would be a sign that we are more humane than her.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.  Though we need a COHR despite the apparently perverse and often infuriating nature of some of it's rulings.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because two killings don't cancel each other out 

What if they are deemed mentally ill ?

Sorry but the death penalty IMO is wrong and deserves to stay in the dark ages
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one Phil


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though we need a COHR despite the apparently perverse and often infuriating nature of some of it's rulings.
		
Click to expand...

Why?


----------



## Andy808 (Feb 19, 2014)

Can't we find a large uninhabited island to send them to to fend for themselves? 
I'm sure we did that once before and it seems to have worked out fairly well for all involved.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Why?
		
Click to expand...

Because the Judiciary of individual Countries, however good and independent they are, only rule on The Law (1). And Law is created by Politicians for their own political reasons, so could quite possibly clash with what they and previous politicians have agreed to as 'Human Rights'. It is the ECHR that subsequently has the final say on such clashes. 

Worth mentioning (again) that ECHR is a distinct entity and is not part of the EU. The 'European' part of the title may mislead, or allow misleading! Especially UK Governments (and particularly Home Office Ministers/Home Secretaries)! Even if UK withdrew from the EU, UK Law could still be challenged in ECHR!

(1) though in UK, The Human Rights Act requires them to 'have regard' for ECHR Decisions (or likely ones I believe).


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 20, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sounds lovely, but it's nothing new as I'm sure vigilante death squads was one of Mrs Thatchers more extreme policies that got vetoed by the cabinet at the time.
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't aware there was anyone in Maggie's cabinet with sufficient cojones to veto any policy she may have supported...


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Because the Judiciary of individual Countries, however good and independent they are, only rule on The Law (1). And Law is created by Politicians for their own political reasons, so could quite possibly clash with what they and previous politicians have agreed to as 'Human Rights'. It is the ECHR that subsequently has the final say on such clashes. 

Worth mentioning (again) that ECHR is a distinct entity and is not part of the EU. The 'European' part of the title may mislead, or allow misleading! Especially UK Governments (and particularly Home Office Ministers/Home Secretaries)! Even if UK withdrew from the EU, UK Law could still be challenged in ECHR!

(1) though in UK, The Human Rights Act requires them to 'have regard' for ECHR Decisions (or likely ones I believe).
		
Click to expand...

I would still like an answer from SILH.

I take your point although the UK Parliament was signed up to the ECOHR by the previous administration.   As a Nation we do not have to use this court as the ultimate decider on law issues.    I am of the school that would prefer our own Law courts (that are independent of Parliament ) to decide on how our laws are interpreted.   The ECOHR is a body made up of Judges from some countries that don't have anything like the experience of our legal system.  I can accept that some countries, especially those that are fairly young will need some assistance with overseeing their laws are just, we dont need this and should remove ourselves at the earliest convenience.   IMO.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I take your point although the UK Parliament was signed up to the ECOHR by the previous administration.   As a Nation we do not have to use this court as the ultimate decider on law issues.    I am of the school that would prefer our own Law courts (that are independent of Parliament ) to decide on how our laws are interpreted.   The ECOHR is a body made up of Judges from some countries that don't have anything like the experience of our legal system.  I can accept that some countries, especially those that are fairly young will need some assistance with overseeing their laws are just, we dont need this and should remove ourselves at the earliest convenience.   IMO.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to still have the confusion as to what ECHR is and how UK relates.

This might help http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/948143.stm

It was not THE previous Administration that signed up to it, it was A previous..(in 1951). And UK was a developer/instigator of it - through the Council of Europe! A totally different entity to the European Union! Better to consider it in the same way as the Hague based International Criminal Court.

What the 'previous administration' did was to attempt to minimise the need to go to the ECHR, by bringing in legislation (HRA 1998) equivalent to/referencing the Articles of ECHR, so that UK Courts could deal with most cases. Of course, the final say is still ECHR. 

And the sophistication, or otherwise, of UK Laws is unrelated to the whether their prosecution (in the true meaning of the word) may breach someone's Human Rights. 

There is no way UK would (or at least should) withdraw from ECHR, even by the subterfuge of 'imbedding ECHR rules' in UK Law. That is just an excuse by Home Secretaries to get around embarrassing situations (normally of their own making, or other bad legislation) and get their own way. It's no different, imo, to the 'justice' meted out by the vigilante mob that JCW mentions - convenient, but inhuman! No sitting Government likes to have its Laws challenged, but when they are 'inhuman' that's exactly what should happen. And the ECHR is the final arbitar of whether the challenge is valid or not.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You seem to still have the confusion as to what ECHR is and how UK relates.

This might help http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/948143.stm

It was not THE previous Administration that signed up to it, it was A previous..(in 1951). And UK was a developer/instigator of it - through the Council of Europe! A totally different entity to the European Union! Better to consider it in the same way as the Hague based International Criminal Court.

What the 'previous administration' did was to attempt to minimise the need to go to the ECHR, by bringing in legislation (HRA 1998) equivalent to/referencing the Articles of ECHR, so that UK Courts could deal with most cases. Of course, the final say is still ECHR. 

And the sophistication, or otherwise, of UK Laws is unrelated to the whether their prosecution (in the true meaning of the word) may breach someone's Human Rights. 

There is no way UK would (or at least should) withdraw from ECHR, even by the subterfuge of 'imbedding ECHR rules' in UK Law. That is just an excuse by Home Secretaries to get around embarrassing situations (normally of their own making, or other bad legislation) and get their own way. It's no different, imo, to the 'justice' meted out by the vigilante mob that JCW mentions - convenient, but inhuman! No sitting Government likes to have its Laws challenged, but when they are 'inhuman' that's exactly what should happen. And the ECHR is the final arbitar of whether the challenge is valid or not.
		
Click to expand...

I do know that its no part of the EEC.   My point is that it is not fit for purpose and we have always had our own appeal system where the House of Lords was the ultimate decider.    We have seen time and time again where the ECOHR had made rulings that are at odds with the wishes of the people in the UK and IMO the sooner we break away from it and instigate our own bill of Hunan Rights the better.    I think I am not alone in this wish by any means.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I do know that its no part of the EEC.   My point is that it is not fit for purpose and we have always had our own appeal system where the House of Lords was the ultimate decider.    We have seen time and time again where the ECOHR had made rulings that are at odds with the wishes of the people in the UK and IMO the sooner we break away from it and instigate our own bill of Hunan Rights the better.    I think I am not alone in this wish by any means.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I don't think you are alone, though I think your 'not fit for purpose' really means  'makes decisions I don't like'!

I think it's absolutely fit for purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make decisions I don't like - though I can't think of one off-hand.

Every one of it's decisions in favour of a UK citizen/resident will be one 'not liked' by  the Government, otherwise the case wouldn't have got there!

Its independence is imperitive imo. A government can simply 'direct' any of its own bodies (by one means or another) to make the decision it favours!

Btw. EEC? Bit behind the times!


----------



## woody69 (Feb 20, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Oh, I don't think you are alone, though I think your 'not fit for purpose' really means  'makes decisions I don't like'!

I think it's absolutely fit for purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make decisions I don't like - though I can't think of one off-hand.

Every one of it's decisions in favour of a UK citizen/resident will be one 'not liked' by  the Government, otherwise the case wouldn't have got there!

Its independence is imperitive imo. A government can simply 'direct' any of its own bodies (by one means or another) to make the decision it favours!

Btw. EEC? Bit behind the times! 

Click to expand...

I guess one such example of a decision many didn't like as when they recently stopped Abu Qatada being deported back to Jordan as the evidence that could be used against him may have been obtained through torture. He's obviously not a very nice person and I can understand why most people wanted him our of our country, but at the same time, I can see the flip side of the coin and look at the bigger picture that he was being protected rightly because of something that went on in Jordan to get evidence against him. Let's say someone under torture had said that you were a terrorist and the authorities said you should face charges back in their country. That rule (39) would also protect you.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I would still like an answer from SILH.

I take your point although the UK Parliament was signed up to the ECOHR by the previous administration.   As a Nation we do not have to use this court as the ultimate decider on law issues.    I am of the school that would prefer our own Law courts (that are independent of Parliament ) to decide on how our laws are interpreted.   The ECOHR is a body made up of Judges from some countries that don't have anything like the experience of our legal system.  I can accept that some countries, especially those that are fairly young will need some assistance with overseeing their laws are just, we dont need this and should remove ourselves at the earliest convenience.   IMO.
		
Click to expand...

I just believe one is necessary as it is too easy to pass judgment based upon a current set of circumstances or prejudices rather than on the merit of an individual case in the broader or longer context.  In the UK we have developed a society where in general our basic human rights are upheld.  However it is true that some of the things that some chose to refer to as human rights can obscure real and basic human rights and raise our hackles - mine also.  But these are in the main surely relatively small acceptances and concessions to make when considering human rights in their truest sense.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I guess one such example of a decision many didn't like as when they recently stopped Abu Qatada being deported back to Jordan as the evidence that could be used against him may have been obtained through torture. He's obviously not a very nice person and I can understand why most people wanted him our of our country, but at the same time, I can see the flip side of the coin and look at the bigger picture that he was being protected rightly because of something that went on in Jordan to get evidence against him. Let's say someone under torture had said that you were a terrorist and the authorities said you should face charges back in their country. That rule (39) would also protect you.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!

That case should be celebrated for what it achieved and how it demonstrated that Human Rights considerations don't prevent proper Legal Process. Shouldn't be celebrated for the cost however, but UK Government was the cause of much, if not all, of that!


----------



## JCW (Feb 20, 2014)

We are by far too soft over here , We give people who don't care two bits about other peoples human rights far too much freedom , they offend and abuse the system and others till they are caught then will give them money to buy the best defence to fight for their human rights .....................captain hook for one , sometimes you just need to kick these guys out , human rights or not but we don't because we want to see things done right and these crooks know it and the take full advantage .................what is the right way to go about these things , don't really know but I guess we must have a standard way for everyone and hope we get it right more times then not


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2014)

Kick them out ? To where exactly ?


----------



## JCW (Feb 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Kick them out ? To where exactly ?
		
Click to expand...

If they were born here , then its Australia for them  , the others back to where they were born , if cant go there , shoot them into space :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: , I think crooks get more rights then those of us that obey the law .


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 20, 2014)

JCW said:



			what is the right way to go about these things , don't really know but I guess we must have a standard way for everyone and hope we get it right more times then not
		
Click to expand...

Which we do.  It's just the usual suspects in the media having a field day when you get the one off cases that goes against their particular agenda. In fact if we get it wrong so often, care to name more 3 such cases without resorting to the internet?


----------



## JCW (Feb 20, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Which we do.  It's just the usual suspects in the media having a field day when you get the one off cases that goes against their particular agenda. In fact if we get it wrong so often, care to name more 3 such cases without resorting to the internet?
		
Click to expand...

Birmingham 6 and a guy who done 20 years , then I got to use the net, shawshank redemption  lol


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2014)

JCW said:



			... hope we get it right more times then not
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:
So that's what the 'scales of justice' are all about!

You are either completely ignorant/unappreciative of what almost 800 years of British justice is all about, or are simply Trolling! 

Of course, you are quite at liberty to hold such idiotic uncivilised views. In the sort of society that applies those sort of rules, you could just as easily be shot, or sent to a concentration camp, or to Killing Fields for re-education. Oh and all your near relatives would suffer similar fate too! Not the sort of Democracy I want thanks - I'll live with the occasional blip that demonstrates Human Rights are the supreme consideration rather than particular whims of any government!


----------



## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:
So that's what the 'scales of justice' are all about!

You are either completely ignorant/unappreciative of what almost 800 years of British justice is all about, or are simply Trolling! 

Of course, you are quite at liberty to hold such idiotic uncivilised views. In the sort of society that applies those sort of rules, you could just as easily be shot, or sent to a concentration camp, or to Killing Fields for re-education. Oh and all your near relatives would suffer similar fate too! Not the sort of Democracy I want thanks - I'll live with the occasional blip that demonstrates Human Rights are the supreme consideration rather than particular whims of any government!
		
Click to expand...


No I am not trolling , no I am not ignorant , just giving a point of view as too what goes on elsewhere how much it has benefited the area in more investment and how it has change the lives of those that live their lives within the laws as it does to those that don't , one thing I am not is rude to others , do you know me and what I stand for , so just what  to you base your judgement of me if all you know about me is what I let you know about me on this forum , manners to others cost nothing , my parents always taught me to treat others how you wish them to treat you , I was  55 on the 14th of this month and I still hold that advice till today and treat people as I wish them to treat me . now what works for one or one part of the world does not mean its suitable elsewhere , ever been to hong kong or Singapore , they have rules about rubbish , you only find rubbish in the bins over there , do you see that ever happening over here ....................EYG  Ps killing fields , ever been to Vietnam , no killing fields there in 2014


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

There's a bit of a difference between the eminently sensible attitude in Singapore - where I have seen rubbish not in bins, chewing gum on pavements, folk smoking and speeding - that actually works reasonably well, and the use of Death Squads without due process. 

And the Killing Fields I was referring to were Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge's ones in Cambodia! Somewhere between 1.4 and 3 million killed!

You'd probably enjoy the democratic North Korean approach too! Don't just kill the 'offender', but all relatives as well!


----------



## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There's a bit of a difference between the eminently sensible attitude in Singapore - where I have seen rubbish not in bins, chewing gum on pavements, folk smoking and speeding - that actually works reasonably well, and the use of Death Squads without due process. 

And the Killing Fields I was referring to were Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge's ones in Cambodia! Somewhere between 1.4 and 3 million killed!

You'd probably enjoy the democratic North Korean approach too! Don't just kill the 'offender', but all relatives as well!
		
Click to expand...


You doing a very good job at showing yourself up so I leave you to it , I am a very well travel man and I will leave it at that .................EYG


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			You doing a very good job at showing yourself up so I leave you to it , I am a very well travel man and I will leave it at that .................EYG
		
Click to expand...

Anyone that endorses death squads needs to have a quiet word with themselves 

In fact you seem to endorse death for a lot of people


----------



## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyone that endorses death squads needs to have a quiet word with themselves 

In fact you seem to endorse death for a lot of people
		
Click to expand...

You eating at the same table as foxholer , you showing yourself up too , I don't endorse anything , when in Rome you follow their rules and so on , why ? only a stupid person would go against it and say they don't do that in the UK , we got rights , the brits abroad are one of the most stupid I have ever seen in my life of travelling , football fans being the worse , just because you a big group you think you can misbehave , its their country and there is more of them and bigger groups , then there is the police , no use telling them your UK rights because you are not in the UK and they lock you up while the local guys go home ..................never learn, anyway that's my lot on the subject , you have your views I have mine and I am not getting into the rights and wrongs , leave that to you thanks


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			You eating at the same table as foxholer , you showing yourself up too , I don't endorse anything , when in Rome you follow their rules and so on , why ? only a stupid person would go against it and say they don't do that in the UK , we got rights , the brits abroad are one of the most stupid I have ever seen in my life of travelling , football fans being the worse , just because you a big group you think you can misbehave , its their country and there is more of them and bigger groups , then there is the police , no use telling them your UK rights because you are not in the UK and they lock you up while the local guys go home ..................never learn
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what that drivel has to do with my post 

And yes you did condone the use of death squads and even suggested they are a good thing because they stop crime 

That's enough to suggest the problem lies with you


----------



## JCW (Feb 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure what that drivel has to do with my post 

And yes you did condone the use of death squads and even suggested they are a good thing because they stop crime 

That's enough to suggest the problem lies with you
		
Click to expand...

You lost the Liverpool football thread so now you having a little dig , I don't have a problem with my views , but you do so be it , I don't condone killing of any form , if others  choose to do it then its up to them , me , I was force to watch 2 people die , not my choice but I had to go through it , before you show yourself up again I will explain that I drove high speed trains for 35 years , that's one of the reasons I retired early because others force me to watch them end their life`s , it was their choice but I did not have the choice so you see I don't condone killing of any sort ........................., that's life be it here in the UK or the rest of the world , you will always have injustice in some form or other


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

Again - not sure what that has to do with my post 

I spent 22 years in the military so have witnessed my fair share of death 

As for your views - I would suggest you read what you have said about the death penalty and the death squads.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2014)

JCW said:



			... I am a very well travel man  ......
		
Click to expand...




JCW said:



			...I drove high speed trains for 35 years...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! :rofl:


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2014)

View attachment 9259


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			Death penalty. 
We would be protected & reviews would not be required. 
The nation would be saving money & prisons would not be so crowded.
*In the right cases, where's the problem?
*

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.
Personally, I would sooner see these *******s swing rather than have to pay a fortune keeping them alive!


*Slime*.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.
Personally, I would sooner see these *******s swing rather than have to pay a fortune keeping them alive!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Thats inhumane and it would contravene their human rights.

I would rather they were made to run down a road where they would be knocked down then be stabbed and decapitated with a blunt cleaver.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Eye for an eye ? Big no for me 

They should be locked up and made to do manual labour for the rest of their lives


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eye for an eye ? Big no for me 

They should be locked up and made to do manual labour for the rest of their lives
		
Click to expand...

With the risk of them escaping or other nutters trying to break them out?
No thanks, just get rid.
It's nothing to do with an eye for an eye or revenge, it's just a matter of getting rid of bad rubbish in the quickest and easiest way .................... and saving a fortune at the same time as well as making this a safer place to live in.


*Slime*.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eye for an eye ? Big no for me 

They should be locked up and made to do manual labour for the rest of their lives
		
Click to expand...

And when they refuse to do the manual labour?   I guess we take away their Sky TV for a week and limit their snooker time!


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

In cases like this where it is plain to see 100% that they are guilty beyond any doubt   the death penalty  be too good for them as they would escape years of pain , waste of money keeping people like these two alive , don't come that human rights stuff as these two had no regard for the rights of the guy they killed , it could be anyone of us going home after playing the help 4 hero`s  golf day with t-shirt to match , laugh if you must but it could happen , no get rid in this case


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			With the risk of them escaping or other nutters trying to break them out?
No thanks, just get rid.
It's nothing to do with an eye for an eye or revenge, it's just a matter of getting rid of bad rubbish in the quickest and easiest way .................... and saving a fortune at the same time as well as making this a safer place to live in.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Getting rid ? Just because they couldn't value human life doesn't mean we have an excuse to be blood thirsty and do exactly what they did 

It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And when they refuse to do the manual labour?   I guess we take away their Sky TV for a week and limit their snooker time!
		
Click to expand...

If they refuse then solitary confinement it is

Zero luxuries


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			In cases like this where it is plain to see 100% that they are guilty beyond any doubt   the death penalty  be too good for them as they would escape years of pain , waste of money keeping people like these two alive , don't come that human rights stuff as these two had no regard for the rights of the guy they killed , it could be anyone of us going home after playing the help 4 hero`s  golf day with t-shirt to match , laugh if you must but it could happen , no get rid in this case
		
Click to expand...

So you want to get rid of more lives as a punishment for them getting rid of a life. That makes it as bad as what they did.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting rid ? Just because they couldn't value human life doesn't mean we have an excuse to be blood thirsty and do exactly what they did 

It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it
		
Click to expand...

When you were a Soldier if an Officer told you to shoot a looter would you have done it?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they refuse then solitary confinement it is

Zero luxuries
		
Click to expand...

probably in contravention of their Human Rights!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			When you were a Soldier if an Officer told you to shoot a looter would you have done it?
		
Click to expand...


Shoot a looter ? No I wouldn't - can't see the relevance


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			probably in contravention of their Human Rights!
		
Click to expand...


It's not - and a visit to Aylesbury Prison would show you that it's not all Sky TV and Snooker


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you want to get rid of more lives as a punishment for them getting rid of a life. That makes it as bad as what they did.
		
Click to expand...

I see where you coming from , But if Lee Rigby was say your brother or worse still your only child , I like to see if you still come out with the comments you do , these guys lost all their rights by what they did and we then pay to defend them and now house and feed them for the rest of their lives , you and me have to work to pay for that , no in this case get rid , too many Lord longfords in this country who fight for the rights of killers , crooks and other law breakers , time these people fight for those of us that live within the laws and not have to worry about these people who are off no use to anyone .........................


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shoot a looter ? No I wouldn't - can't see the relevance
		
Click to expand...

So you would have refused to carry out the order?

You said "It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it' That's the relevance.


----------



## User20205 (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			In cases like this where it is plain to see 100% that they are guilty beyond any doubt   the death penalty  be too good for them as they would escape years of pain , waste of money keeping people like these two alive , don't come that human rights stuff as these two had no regard for the rights of the guy they killed , it could be anyone of us going home after playing the help 4 hero`s  golf day with t-shirt to match , laugh if you must but it could happen , no get rid in this case
		
Click to expand...

you kind of miss the point slightly, but I understand the punishment must fit the crime.

in this case, if you implemented the death penalty, you make them martyrs. That is what they wanted, to be shot by armed police and be a martyr to islam. If you lock them up for life, and treat them like any other full life criminal ultimately what they did was pointless & futile.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			I see where you coming from , But if Lee Rigby was say your brother or worse still your only child , I like to see if you still come out with the comments you do , these guys lost all their rights by what they did and we then pay to defend them and now house and feed them for the rest of their lives , you and me have to work to pay for that , no in this case get rid , too many Lord longfords in this country who fight for the rights of killers , crooks and other law breakers , time these people fight for those of us that live within the laws and not have to worry about these people who are off no use to anyone .........................
		
Click to expand...

There is that phrase again "get rid" - pretty disgusting phrase to use about a human being.

Thankfully we have laws in this country and it doesn't include "getting rid" of a persons life. They will now live a life of imprisonment


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2014)

therod said:



			you kind of miss the point slightly, but I understand the punishment must fit the crime.

in this case, if you implemented the death penalty, you make them martyrs. That is what they wanted, to be shot by armed police and be a martyr to islam. If you lock them up for life, and treat them like any other full life criminal ultimately what they did was pointless & futile.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a view I hadn't considered.  Very good point!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So you would have refused to carry out the order?

You said "It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it' That's the relevance.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I would have refused the order because I know it would be an illegal order that doesn't follow any rules of engagement


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

therod said:



			you kind of miss the point slightly, but I understand the punishment must fit the crime.

in this case, if you implemented the death penalty, you make them martyrs. That is what they wanted, to be shot by armed police and be a martyr to islam. If you lock them up for life, and treat them like any other full life criminal ultimately what they did was pointless & futile.
		
Click to expand...

I see your point but then why don't they just don't report the crime , , everything done in private so they don't get any TV coverage , Radio or newspapers which is what these people do it for , a news blackout and at the end just say they have been jailed for life ..........................the news people have a lot to answer for by covering cases like this to the max and give this people what they want so others follow them into martyrdom by doing the same ................give them nowt I say and not feed them to busting point like we do


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I would have refused the order because I know it would be an illegal order that doesn't follow any rules of engagement
		
Click to expand...

what if they guy had a gun and was in a position  to take away your life ,  you worry about his human rights then or if the gun is loaded or real or you just shoot and worry about it later ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			what if they guy had a gun and was in a position  to take away your life ,  you worry about his human rights then or if the gun is loaded or real or you just shoot and worry about it later ?
		
Click to expand...

Again it's all down to rules of engagement 

How do you know if the gun is loaded or real ? 

It's a very hard judgement call for anyone to make

You have to ensure when criminal proceedings are started you can justify your actions


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again it's all down to rules of engagement 

How do you know if the gun is loaded or real ? 

It's a very hard judgement call for anyone to make

You have to ensure when criminal proceedings are started you can justify your actions
		
Click to expand...

What rules , these people don't obey rules , they break them to suit , now if this guy pointed a gun at you are going to shoot 1st or worry about rules of engagement because soon it be over for you man , stop sitting on the fence , I am not having a dig , just pretty fed up with these law breakers and the soft nature of out courts , more worried about over crowded jails then giving a sentence to suit the crime


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			I see your point but then why don't they just don't report the crime , , everything done in private so they don't get any TV coverage , Radio or newspapers which is what these people do it for , a news blackout and at the end just say they have been jailed for life ..........................the news people have a lot to answer for by covering cases like this to the max and give this people what they want so others follow them into martyrdom by doing the same ................give them nowt I say and not feed them to busting point like we do
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that was what therod was suggesting at all!

And much as I detest the way some elements of the Press report, their freedom to report (National Security notwithstanding) is absolutely paramount to any 'free' society.

So as well as Death Squads to eliminate 'criminals' without due process and Suppression of the Press, what other totalitarian policies are you in favour of? Forced Euthenasia of the 'disabled' - or elderly? Selective sterilisation? Genetic manipulation - a form of which was tried in Singapore?


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe that was what therod was suggesting at all!

And much as I detest the way some elements of the Press report, their freedom to report (National Security notwithstanding) is absolutely paramount to any 'free' society.

So as well as Death Squads to eliminate 'criminals' without due process and Suppression of the Press, what other totalitarian policies are you in favour of? Forced Euthenasia of the 'disabled' - or elderly? Selective sterilisation? Genetic manipulation - a form of which was tried in Singapore?
		
Click to expand...

You really need to get a life mate , you post replies  to get a reaction , at no time did I mention some of the stuff you mention in your last post , 7665 post to date and more to come I am sure . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			What rules , these people don't obey rules , they break them to suit , now if this guy pointed a gun at you are going to shoot 1st or worry about rules of engagement because soon it be over for you man , stop sitting on the fence , I am not having a dig , just pretty fed up with these law breakers and the soft nature of out courts , more worried about over crowded jails then giving a sentence to suit the crime
		
Click to expand...

Just because they don't follow rules doesn't mean we stop following them 

I have had a gun pointed at me by an angry Serb and didn't shoot him - I made a judgement call and it was correct. I'm not sitting on any fence - I believe the laws we have are currently correct and happy to follow those laws. I don't believe in killing people because they killed someone - that IMO makes you just as bad - especially when you use phrases like "get rid" and "no use" anymore 

I have followed the law for 41 years and been in war zones and it isn't over for me - it appears you are a blood thirsty person 

Our courts have just sentenced these two people to 50 years in a maximum security jail with no parole - their life is finished. 

They killed someone because they believed the solider was part of crimes against their religion and country and to pay for the deaths of their country men - you want to kill them because they killed one of ours - what is the difference between you and them ?


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just because they don't follow rules doesn't mean we stop following them 

I have had a gun pointed at me by an angry Serb and didn't shoot him - I made a judgement call and it was correct. I'm not sitting on any fence - I believe the laws we have are currently correct and happy to follow those laws. I don't believe in killing people because they killed someone - that IMO makes you just as bad - especially when you use phrases like "get rid" and "no use" anymore 

I have followed the law for 41 years and been in war zones and it isn't over for me - it appears you are a blood thirsty person 

Our courts have just sentenced these two people to 50 years in a maximum security jail with no parole - their life is finished. 

They killed someone because they believed the solider was part of crimes against their religion and country and to pay for the deaths of their country men - you want to kill them because they killed one of ours - what is the difference between you and them ?
		
Click to expand...

You really think that's why they killed him , they were brainwashed just like the 911 plot in America , its nothing new , Japanese pilots done it in world war 2 and the gemans and Russians and the Vietcong have done it since with sleeper agents , now its these people using islam , the whole thing is very sad as its others with stronger minds using people with weaker minds to do their dirty work , and the media just feeds the whole thing ...........there you have it


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting rid ? Just because they couldn't value human life doesn't mean we have an excuse to be blood thirsty and *do exactly what they did *

It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it
		
Click to expand...

I'm talking about a hanging or a lethal injection. I never said we should run them down in a public place and then try and decapitate them!
Oh, and some life is not worth keeping.



Liverpoolphil said:



			So you want to get rid of more lives as a punishment for them getting rid of a life. *That makes it as bad as what they did.*

Click to expand...

Carrying out a death sentence is not quite the same. Besides, they did it to an innocent man ............... they are cold blooded killers, subtle difference there.


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			You really think that's why they killed him , they were brainwashed just like the 911 plot in America , its nothing new , Japanese pilots done it in world war 2 and the gemans and Russians and the Vietcong have done it since with sleeper agents , now its these people using islam , the whole thing is very sad as its others with stronger minds using people with weaker minds to do their dirty work , and the media just feeds the whole thing ...........there you have it
		
Click to expand...

Ignored most of my post but I'm bit surprised.

You can twist it anyway you want - they killed the soldiers in revenge for soldiers killing people of islam 

You want to kill them for killing the solider. 

What's the next stage ? They kill more - then you want more killed 

Hopefully you get the point


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			I'm talking about a hanging or a lethal injection. I never said we should run them down in a public place and then try and decapitate them!
Oh, and some life is not worth keeping.



Carrying out a death sentence is not quite the same. Besides, they did it to an innocent man ............... they are cold blooded killers, subtle difference there.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

The solider wasn't innocent in their eyes.

The method of death doesn't make it any different - it's still the life ending 

We at least try and live in a civilised world - that means not killing our fellow human beings 

If someone breaks the law then they are punished - in this case they will serve 50 years in a maximum security prison doing manual labour with no parole - that is the human punishment - their life is over without having to drop to inhuman levels.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			I'm talking about a hanging or a lethal injection. I never said we should run them down in a public place and then try and decapitate them!

Carrying out a death sentence is not quite the same.
		
Click to expand...

This part I can agree with - though I am absolutely opposed to the Death Sentence.



Slime said:



			Oh, and some life is not worth keeping.
		
Click to expand...

That is an obscene statement!


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			I'm talking about a hanging or a lethal injection. I never said we should run them down in a public place and then try and decapitate them!
Oh, and some life is not worth keeping.



Carrying out a death sentence is not quite the same. Besides, they did it to an innocent man ............... they are cold blooded killers, subtle difference there.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Just wasting your time mate , they only want to argue and will go to any lengths to twist stuff to suit them , true people of islam don't want to know these guys ...................moved on , leave them to their views


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The solider wasn't innocent in their eyes.

The method of death doesn't make it any different - it's still the life ending 

We at least try and live in a civilised world - that means not killing our fellow human beings 

If someone breaks the law then they are punished - in this case they will serve 50 years in a maximum security prison doing manual labour with no parole - that is the human punishment - their life is over without having to drop to inhuman levels.
		
Click to expand...

Why join the army then , you are train to kill that's what armies are for , to defend the country , don't tell tell me you joined the army to play golf , with your views what you doing in the army


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Just wasting your time mate , they only want to argue and will go to any lengths to twist stuff to suit them , true people of islam don't want to know these guys ...................moved on , leave them to their views
		
Click to expand...

I haven't twisted anything - you it's clear to see avoid any hard hitting point posted to you that challenges your opinion

You have no issue with death squads dishing out punishments outside the law and it's clear to see why


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Why join the army then , you are train to kill that's what armies are for , to defend the country , don't tell tell me you joined the army to play golf , with your views what you doing in the army
		
Click to expand...

I didn't join the Army 

And I wasn't trained to "kill" anyone 

Seems you don't even know the basic concepts of our own military.


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't join the Army 

And I wasn't trained to "kill" anyone 

Seems you don't even know the basic concepts of our own military.
		
Click to expand...

So what were you in the army then a spud peeler ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			So what were you in the army then a spud peeler ?
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't in the Army as I said in the first post.


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't in the Army as I said in the first post.
		
Click to expand...

I am sure you said you were in the army , must have got confused , sorry , easy do to when posting on here and facebook , anyway mate , best we agreed to disagreed  , play golf someday , you are welcome to play Parkstone here in Dorset anytime , just give us a shout if you going to be in the area .......................EYG


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The solider wasn't innocent in their eyes.

*The method of death doesn't make it any different* - it's still the life ending 

We at least try and live in a civilised world - that means *not killing our fellow human beings *

If someone breaks the law then they are punished - in this case they will serve 50 years in a maximum security prison doing manual labour with no parole - that is the human punishment - *their life is over without having to drop to inhuman levels.*

Click to expand...

Yes it does.
I do not & will not regard them as 'fellow human beings'.
One could argue that forcing someone to 50 years manual labour as a punishment is less humane than a quick, painless death!




Foxholer said:



			This part I can agree with - though I am absolutely opposed to the Death Sentence.


*That is an obscene statement!*

Click to expand...

I do not believe that their lives are worth keeping, so please, show me the light and explain to me why these people are worth hanging on to.


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



Yes it does.
I do not & will not regard them as 'fellow human beings'.
One could argue that forcing someone to 50 years manual labour as a punishment is less humane than a quick, painless death!




I do not believe that their lives are worth keeping, so please, show me the light and explain to me why these people are worth hanging on to.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

They are fellow human beings - just because you don't regard them as such doesn't change that simple fact. 

Its not up to us to judge how much a persons life is worth


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 26, 2014)

Since apparently, they both still want to die, and are facing rather long prison terms, should they not be offered euthanasia? it would be humane, as being locked up for life is pretty demeaning. It would be  painless, cheap (dare I mention cost?), zero guilt for the jury, no worries about later mistakes (although in this case, they are guilty, it's on video), etc. Ok, so Muslims can't off themselves, but I'm sure there's a dodgy Mullah out there somewhere who could make this work. Make it sound a bit like martyrdom, 72 virgins and all that.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - not sure what that has to do with my post 

I spent 22 years in the military so have witnessed my fair share of death 

As for your views - I would suggest you read what you have said about the death penalty and the death squads.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't in the Army as I said in the first post.
		
Click to expand...

No but in the military so please elaborate especially if you had a gun pointed at you in Serbia


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No but in the military so please elaborate especially if you had a gun pointed at you in Serbia
		
Click to expand...

Has he ever said which side he was on?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No but in the military so please elaborate especially if you had a gun pointed at you in Serbia
		
Click to expand...

What would you like to know Homer ? What exactly should I elaborate ?


----------



## Pin-seeker (Feb 26, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Since apparently, they both still want to die, and are facing rather long prison terms, should they not be offered euthanasia? it would be humane, as being locked up for life is pretty demeaning. It would be  painless, cheap (dare I mention cost?), zero guilt for the jury, no worries about later mistakes (although in this case, they are guilty, it's on video), etc. Ok, so Muslims can't off themselves, but I'm sure there's a dodgy Mullah out there somewhere who could make this work. Make it sound a bit like martyrdom, 72 virgins and all that.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't even offer them a painless option. Law abiding citizen (film) now that is what they deserve.


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No but in the military so please elaborate especially if you had a gun pointed at you in Serbia
		
Click to expand...


Well I never saw that  Homer , I was not going to say but as you have mate I  await a reply  , by the way if you are down my way and fancy a game at Parkstone just say , anytime you are welcome mate , I got Â£20 tickets to hand ......................EYG


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are *fellow human beings* - just because you don't regard them as such doesn't change that simple fact. 

*Its not up to us to judge how much a persons life is worth*

Click to expand...

Human beings I will accept, 'fellow' human beings I won't.
But it's up to us, as 'civilised' human beings, to decide on what to do with those that step out of line. It has been decided that they should go to prison for a very long time ..................... I happen to be one of those who would have prefered to see them executed, at the same time accepting that that is not currently an option.
I obviously value their lives less than you do.
One of the beauties of living where we do is that we can all air our opinions in an open forum such as this, it just happens that we disagree on this one, and I think we always will!


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Well I never saw that  Homer , I was not going to say but as you have mate I  await a reply  , by the way if you are down my way and fancy a game at Parkstone just say , anytime you are welcome mate , I got Â£20 tickets to hand ......................EYG
		
Click to expand...

There is more to the military than just the Army :thup:


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Since apparently, they both still want to die, and are facing rather long prison terms, should they not be offered euthanasia? it would be humane, as being locked up for life is pretty demeaning. It would be  painless, cheap (dare I mention cost?), zero guilt for the jury, no worries about later mistakes (although in this case, they are guilty, it's on video), etc. Ok, so Muslims can't off themselves, but I'm sure there's a dodgy Mullah out there somewhere who could make this work. Make it sound a bit like martyrdom, 72 virgins and all that.
		
Click to expand...

hahaha , you make me laugh lol


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



Human beings I will accept, 'fellow' human beings I won't.
But it's up to us, as 'civilised' human beings, to decide on what to do with those that step out of line. It has been decided that they should go to prison for a very long time ..................... I happen to be one of those who would have prefered to see them executed, at the same time accepting that that is not currently an option.
I obviously value their lives less than you do.
One of the beauties of living where we do is that we can all air our opinions in an open forum such as this, it just happens that we disagree on this one, and I think we always will!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

How can you say civilised and then want them executed - wanting death upon someone isn't an act of a civilised human being. 

I value all life equally - if people mistreat that value then they must rightly be punished and have their freedom removed.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:





Slime said:



			I do not believe that their lives are worth keeping, so please, show me the light and explain to me why these people are worth hanging on to.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

They are fellow human beings - just because you don't regard them as such doesn't change that simple fact. 

Its not up to us to judge how much a persons life is worth
		
Click to expand...

Spot on!


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



Human beings I will accept, 'fellow' human beings I won't.
But it's up to us, as 'civilised' human beings, to decide on what to do with those that step out of line. It has been decided that they should go to prison for a very long time ..................... I happen to be one of those who would have prefered to see them executed, at the same time accepting that that is not currently an option.
I obviously value their lives less than you do.
One of the beauties of living where we do is that we can all air our opinions in an open forum such as this, it just happens that we disagree on this one, and I think we always will!


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...


Could not have put it better myself , to the point ......................EYG


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - not sure what that has to do with my post 

I spent 22 years in the military so have witnessed my fair share of death 

As for your views - I would suggest you read what you have said about the death penalty and the death squads.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't in the Army as I said in the first post.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			There is more to the military than just the Army :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Go on then. Your all for being consistent and honest


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is more to the military than just the Army :thup:
		
Click to expand...


You have been caught out , just come clean , one more thing my parents taught me is don't tell fibs unless you have a superb mind as you have to remember what fib  you told and who you told it too , so always tell the truth or try too , its easy because it comes naturally , I don't really care any more as one moment you in the army , next you are not , then you know what its like for a serb to point a gun at you and lastly you seen more dead bodies then an undertaker , I give up


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Go on then. Your all for being consistent and honest
		
Click to expand...


What is it you would like to know ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			You have been caught out , just come clean , one more thing my parents taught me is don't tell fibs unless you have a superb mind as you have to remember what fib  you told and who you told it too , so always tell the truth or try too , its easy because it comes naturally , I don't really care any more as one moment you in the army , next you are not , then you know what its like for a serb to point a gun at you and lastly you seen more dead bodies then an undertaker , I give up
		
Click to expand...

Been caught out ? How exactly have I been caught out 

I suggest you do a simple google search of military in the UK and you will see exactly what I mean when I say there I more to the military than the Army.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Of course you could just give a straight answer. We can get someone to explain the concept to you in simple words


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

I spent 22 years in the Royal Air Force - not the Army but still in the military 

I did two tours in the old Yugoslavia and one in Kosovo.

Is that simple enough for you 

You can point out where I wasn't being honest or consistent or you can offer an apology for the accusations :thup:


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Of course you could just give a straight answer. We can get someone to explain the concept to you in simple words
		
Click to expand...


Must be a Politician , they talk in riddles


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Must be a Politician , they talk in riddles
		
Click to expand...


Can expect an apology from yourself also :thup:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			you can offer an apology for the accusations :thup:
		
Click to expand...

So fine to dish it out....Sorry but bored of your squabbling here and elsewhere. That's what the ignore button is for
		
Click to expand...


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can expect an apology from yourself also :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Look I was a Train Driver , if anyone ask me I tell them , you beat around the bush for ages , I said train Driver not Railways as that could be any job ................Air Force and ?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			So fine to dish it out....
		
Click to expand...

Dish what out - you threw accusations at me - I have responded and corrected your accusations - now I would expect an apology but I'm guessing that doesn't work with you Homer but I'm not surprised.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Look I was a Train Driver , if anyone ask me I tell them , you beat around the bush for ages , I said train Driver not Railways as that could be any job ................Air Force and ?
		
Click to expand...


There is a massive difference between the Air Force and the Army - again you suggested I was lying when it's clear I wasn't. 

Maybe next time don't suggest such things :thup:


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:





HomerJSimpson said:



			Dish what out - you threw accusations at me - I have responded and corrected your accusations - now I would expect an apology but I'm guessing that doesn't work with you Homer but I'm not surprised.
		
Click to expand...

Homer is right , you carry on , I am out
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

JCW said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Homer is right , you carry on , I am out
		
Click to expand...


Actually you were both very wrong about me and your judgements and accusations were wrong 

Have a nice night
		
Click to expand...


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

Can someone explain to LiverpoolPhil what the ignore button does!


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can you say civilised and then want them executed - wanting death upon someone isn't an act of a civilised human being. 

*I value all life equally* - if people mistreat that value then they must rightly be punished and have their freedom removed.
		
Click to expand...

I do not. 
I value my life far more highly than the lives of either of those two murderers.
If you value their lives equally to mine I feel you are truly misguided.


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			I do not. 
I value my life far more highly than the lives of either of those two murderers.
If you value their lives equally to mine I feel you are truly misguided.


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

It's not up to you or me to judge if people's life are "worth it" or not 

All life is sacred and must be treated that way - if some people don't treat it that way then their freedom must be removed - remove their life is not and never will be a justifiable punishment in my eyes. We should never ever be able to have the choice to take someone's life.


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How can you say civilised and then want them executed - wanting death upon someone isn't an act of a civilised human being. 

*I value all life equally* - if people mistreat that value then they must rightly be punished and have their freedom removed.
		
Click to expand...

You actually posted this.
Please answer the following direct question directly,

Do you value their lives equally to mine?


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			You actually posted this.
Please answer the following direct question directly,

Do you value their lives equally to mine?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

All life is equal - not just human life Slime 

That's how I see things. 

They have the same right to life as you do


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All life is equal - not just human life Slime
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying animals bred and raised to be killed and eaten?

Are you Vegetarian/Vegan? (Fair enough if you are. Just wanted clarification.)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Are you saying animals bred and raised to be killed and eaten?

Are you Vegetarian/Vegan? (Fair enough if you are. Just wanted clarification.)
		
Click to expand...

I'm actually not and that's a good point you raise and one I haven't really thought about if I'm being honest


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			Do you value their lives equally to mine?


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Notwithstanding my bias valuing my own life above anyone elses...

I value their lives and yours equally.

I value their attitudes and deeds rather less than I believe I would value yours!

See the difference?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding my bias valuing my own life above anyone elses...

I value their lives and yours equally.

I value their attitudes and deeds rather less than I believe I would value yours!

See the difference?
		
Click to expand...


Summed up well :thup:


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			You actually posted this.
*Please answer the following direct question directly,

Do you value their lives equally to mine?*


*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Please, just answer the question ................ if you can.





Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding my bias valuing my own life above anyone elses...

*I value their lives and yours equally*.

I value their attitudes and deeds rather less than I believe I would value yours!

See the difference?
		
Click to expand...

And I am deeply offended.


*Slime*.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Yes I treat their lives equal to yours.

Their actions , morals , choices and attitude are not equal 

But as a human being they are equal


----------



## Slime (Feb 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes I treat their lives equal to yours.

Their actions , morals , choices and attitude are not equal 

But as a human being they are equal
		
Click to expand...

The question was this,

Do you *value* their lives equally to mine?
Please answer it.

*Slime*.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Feb 26, 2014)

Guys, please agree to disagree before I end up shooting one of you


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Slime said:



			The question was this,

Do you *value* their lives equally to mine?
Please answer it.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

The answer is yes as I said I value all life equally


----------



## Slime (Feb 27, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, please agree to disagree before *I end up shooting one of you* 

Click to expand...

For which I would want you executed immediately  ............. but your life is just too valuable :thup:.
Point taken PTF. 
Oh, by the way, which one of us *would* you shoot? 


*Slime*.


----------



## Slime (Feb 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The answer is yes as I said I value all life equally
		
Click to expand...

Unfathomable.


*Slime*.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I spent 22 years in the Royal Air Force - not the Army but still in the military 

I did two tours in the old Yugoslavia and one in Kosovo.

Is that simple enough for you 

You can point out where I wasn't being honest or consistent or you can offer an apology for the accusations :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Ah! that sums it up, you were a Crabfat!   I can see now how you din't get it when I asked you whether you would shoot a Looter if your Officer instructed you to.   Were you ever trained in responding to civil unrest?


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! that sums it up, you were a Crabfat!   I can see now how you din't get it when I asked you whether you would shoot a Looter if your Officer instructed you to.   Were you ever trained in responding to civil unrest?
		
Click to expand...

Had to look that term up! And found this fantastic irreverant description of RAF! https://www.arrse.co.uk/arrse_wiki/index.php?title=The_Royal_Air_Force&


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! that sums it up, you were a Crabfat!   I can see now how you din't get it when I asked you whether you would shoot a Looter if your Officer instructed you to.   Were you ever trained in responding to civil unrest?
		
Click to expand...


What service I was makes no difference to what rules of engagement people follow 

Every service follows the same rules of engagement - you don't shoot looters. The use of fire arms is used as a last resort and only when life is endangered.


----------



## chris661 (Feb 27, 2014)

Just in case fragger wasn't particularly clear this thread does seem to have descended into petty bickering and some fairly personal insults amongst a few members. Cut it out (all of you) or the thread will be locked and infractions dished out. 

You have a been warned!


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2014)

chris661 said:



			Just in case fragger wasn't particularly clear this thread does seem to have descended into petty bickering and some fairly personal insults amongst a few members. Cut it out (all of you) or the thread will be locked and infractions dished out. 

You have a been warned!
		
Click to expand...

Codpieceface.....


----------



## Fish (Feb 27, 2014)

I was just about to post something but I will now hold back, however I will say that I think some individuals get far more leeway than others as their has been some very direct personal insults, rudeness and augmentative responses to some people open opinions.

I think I will use my 'ignore' function for the first time, or maybe twice


----------



## chris661 (Feb 27, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Codpieceface.....

Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 27, 2014)

Fish said:



			I was just about to post something but I will now hold back, however I will say that I think some individuals get far more leeway than others as their has been some very direct personal insults, rudeness and augmentative responses to some people open opinions.

I think I will use my 'ignore' function for the first time, or maybe twice 

Click to expand...

Totally agree but I've grown use to the brickbats. Ignore the idiots and enjoy the company and thoughts of the 99% on here that are capable of making sensible and astute posts. The ignore button is your friend. Testament to my first sentence, I've bee on here for a good few years and only used it three times (including last night)


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree but I've grown use to the brickbats. Ignore the idiots and enjoy the company and thoughts of the 99% on here that are capable of making sensible and astute posts. The ignore button is your friend. Testament to my first sentence, I've bee on here for a good few years and only used it three times (including last night)
		
Click to expand...


You have prob got me on ignore anyway but im goign to say it anyway 

You didnt have me on ignore when you were challenging me on the thread last night and accusing me - when i showed you that i wasnt lying and your accusations were false you threw your teddies out of the cot. It isnt the first time over the past couple of days you have gone off on someone on the forum when they have pointed out your inconsistencies. I am in doubt that i will be the warned but last night the snide remarks were coming from you.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2014)

Hang on a minute. Could someone please explain why Liverpoolphil has been blackballed? As far as I can see, he was the one that was on the receiving end of some pretty snidey, petty remarks last night from people who think that the military consists solely of the Army. Silly arguments like this are one thing, but questioning someone's integrity is far worse than any stupid insult. Have I missed another thread where Phil was the aggressor?


----------



## brendy (Feb 27, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Hang on a minute. Could someone please explain why Liverpoolphil has been blackballed? As far as I can see, he was the one that was on the receiving end of some pretty snidey, petty remarks last night from people who think that the military consists solely of the Army. Silly arguments like this are one thing, but questioning someone's integrity is far worse than any stupid insult. Have I missed another thread where Phil was the aggressor?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps a quiet pm would suffice to a member of staff or moderator rather than start a public debate.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2014)

brendy said:



			Perhaps a quiet pm would suffice to a member of staff or moderator rather than start a public debate.
		
Click to expand...

Was my first thought mate, but I thought that it may help people if they could see why an infraction was handed out. I've no dog in this fight as I've long since decided that these type of discussions are a bit pointless, but I couldn't see where the problem was.. 

Maybe it helped that I only read the thread at 3 this morning, rather than reading it as it happened..


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 27, 2014)

brendy said:



			Perhaps a quiet pm would suffice to a member of staff or moderator rather than start a public debate.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we could if the mod making the offer had space in their PM box?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 27, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Was my first thought mate, *but I thought that it may help people if they could see why an infraction was handed out. *I've no dog in this fight as I've long since decided that these type of discussions are a bit pointless, but I couldn't see where the problem was.. 

Maybe it helped that I only read the thread at 3 this morning, rather than reading it as it happened..

Click to expand...

This ^.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps we could if the mod making the offer had space in their PM box? 

Click to expand...

Damn.. I never checked that.. Would have been the perfect response...


----------



## brendy (Feb 27, 2014)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps we could if the mod making the offer had space in their PM box? 

Click to expand...

Already sorted my man!
Seems I am am more popular than my inbox limit suggests


----------



## brendy (Feb 27, 2014)

Without trying to sound arsey, it isnt anyone elses business unless they had any sort of vested interest in it, but feel free to pm. 


bluewolf said:



			Was my first thought mate, but I thought that it may help people if they could see why an infraction was handed out. I've no dog in this fight as I've long since decided that these type of discussions are a bit pointless, but I couldn't see where the problem was.. 

Maybe it helped that I only read the thread at 3 this morning, rather than reading it as it happened..

Click to expand...


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting rid ? Just because they couldn't value human life doesn't mean we have an excuse to be blood thirsty and do exactly what they did 

It's still killing life and there is never a justification for it
		
Click to expand...

Solitary for life  , Put a revolver in the cell with one round in only let them leave in a box time scale is up to them. Plastic box in the door so the guards can see the gun before entering the cell so he cant kill anyone else.  If you commit a crime like this against a Queens soldier it should be treason  and your human rights should be removed animals only kill to survive except Cats.   I am not really in favour of the death penalty but for these two I would not complain. They cant say it was not them so there is no dought.


----------

