# World Handicap System



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.ti.../golf-world-handicap-system-151341?source=dam

Interesting times ahead - social scores to count ! Best 8 out last 20 for HC


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.ti.../golf-world-handicap-system-151341?source=dam

Interesting times ahead - social scores to count ! Best 8 out last 20 for HC
		
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Is it a straight copy of the American h/cap system?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Is it a straight copy of the American h/cap system?
		
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Pretty much - it was always going to happen that way 

Itâ€™s packaged as everyone coming together but basically the US wonâ€™t ever change their way so everyone else falls in line with them. 

There is a few subtle changes - social rounds â€œmayâ€ be included and itâ€™s only 8 in 20 rounds


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2018)

How will you go up and down in comparison to how it works now?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How will you go up and down in comparison to how it works now?
		
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You will go up and down a lot more and in bigger chunks - for example you could be off ten one month then go down to 5 and be back to ten all in a matter of 16 rounds


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## MendieGK (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You will go up and down a lot more and in bigger chunks - for example you could be off ten one month then go down to 5 and be back to ten all in a matter of 16 rounds
		
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Struggling to find out how weather conditions affect the USGA system, can you shed any light mate?


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## hovis (Feb 20, 2018)

how can social scores count?  i, and many others dont record scores from social rounds.  i also break the rules alot during social rounds too!


what would stop a scratch player carding a load of gash scores then cleaning up in big comps?


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## Junior (Feb 20, 2018)

Interesting times.  For some reason i cant open the article.  Does it say whether you have to declare the round for handicap purposes on the tee before a social game ?   

The reason I ask is that I've a couple of 'associates' who live and play in the USA and they are both good golfers.  They are quite "selective" about the social cards they put in.  Essentially, they have vanity handicaps that they like to keep artificially low.  If they have a decent social game, they put the card in for handicap, however, if they chomp it around they do not submit a card for an increase.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

hovis said:



			how can social scores count?  i, and many others dont record scores from social rounds.  i also break the rules alot during social rounds too!


what would stop a scratch player carding a load of gash scores then cleaning up in big comps?
		
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Trust and honesty- if you are breaking rules then the score wonâ€™t count 

From what I understand from the last meeting you donâ€™t have to declare but the score that is put in must be under Comp conditions etc 

I have no idea what the weather changes will be Sam - but part factored into course rating


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## JamesR (Feb 20, 2018)

Junior said:



			Interesting times.  For some reason i cant open the article.  Does it say whether you have to declare the round for handicap purposes on the tee before a social game ?   

The reason I ask is that I've a couple of 'associates' who live and play in the USA and they are both good golfers.  *They are quite "selective" about the social cards they put in.  Essentially, they have vanity handicaps that they like to keep artificially low.  If they have a decent social game, they put the card in for handicap,* however, if they chomp it around they do not submit a card for an increase.
		
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I imagine it could get quite interesting for the more elite comp's where a ballot is required. Suddenly they could end up with masses of players claiming incredibly low handicaps due to "miraculous" social rounds.


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

MendieGK said:



			Struggling to find out how weather conditions affect the USGA system, can you shed any light mate?
		
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Abnormal Course and Weather Conditions Adjustment
Golf is an outdoor sport and not always played in ideal conditions. The new system will consider the impact of daily course or weather conditions on each golferâ€™s performance. Such adjustments will be conservative and will only be made when there is clear evidence that an adjustment is warranted.
https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem/Highlights


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## Junior (Feb 20, 2018)

JamesR said:



			I imagine it could get quite interesting for the more elite comp's where a ballot is required. Suddenly they could end up with masses of players claiming incredibly low handicaps due to "miraculous" social rounds.
		
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I got the impression that this (along with vanity) is why they do it.  As it allows them to enter some competitions in the USA that have upper handicap limits.  

They are good golfers, easily single figures, but not as good as they purport to be.


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## DRW (Feb 20, 2018)

Very interesting, will have to have a play around with some figures and have a read up tonight.

Thinking about last bets 8 from the last 20 scores, could be over a long time for some people and maybe slower to react to a very rapidly improving golfer (or will there still be scoring reductions like currently). Also thinking about a player like myself that can have many high scores and then I typically have one blinding round in about 6-8 rounds when the stars align, will be interesting to see when I have a play around with some figures later to see if this happens or the averaging effect comes back to the same handicap figure.

Thanks for the links Phil and upsidedown.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

Having it down at 8 from 20 will have driven the argument for a conditions element (that and the Aussies like the one they developed). 
There's not a huge amount that can be debated on the likely impact overall as they have announced the addition of a new fudge factor in the overall equation....basically the average will then be massaged by an unknown calculation based on historical handicap/scores. Stated as designed to make the system more responsive I have to admit that I can't see that at all; as outlined it will make the output less responsive to new data! The USGA system currently has a broadbrush simple limit on handicap movement against time so this will be a more refined version.

Moving to daily handicapping as well will require everything to be input by individuals to computers in close to real time....that will be fun!


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 20, 2018)

Went to a meeting about it last year at the Warwickshire with the R&A and USGA. 
Certainly in favour of every round counts. 
My handicap should rocket down if my Friday money matchplay scores are to go buy. (No gimmes).


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## Crow (Feb 20, 2018)

I can't see "every round to count" helping with the current pace of play crisis so often flagged as a reason for golf's falling popularity. 
Surely some will play every round with the intensity and slowness of a medal competition?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

It wonâ€™t be an every round counts I believe - it will be every round that you want to count plus comps which then opens it up to more people to manufacture their HC as high as possible and indeed as low as possible


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

Crow said:



			I can't see "every round to count" helping with the current pace of play crisis so often flagged as a reason for golf's falling popularity. 
Surely some will play every round with the intensity and slowness of a medal competition?
		
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Surely not?

Next there's the thorny subject of the rules....no longer will you be able to ignore them in bounce games etc


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It wonâ€™t be an every round counts I believe - it will be every round that you want to count plus comps which then opens it up to more people to manufacture their HC as high as possible and indeed as low as possible
		
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In fairness it makes no difference to cat 2 and above as they can already do exactly that with unlimited supplementals.

What happens in practice regarding matches etc will be fascinating.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			In fairness it makes no difference to cat 2 and above as they can already do exactly that with unlimited supplementals.

What happens in practice regarding matches etc will be fascinating.
		
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Isnâ€™t the difference though the lack of declaration required when this system comes in ?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Isnâ€™t the difference though the lack of declaration required when this system comes in ?
		
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I don't know, I haven't seen the detail!  I was commenting on your statement that it would be every round that people want to count plus competitions.

Surely you aren't suggesting that people can decide whether to count any particular round after they finish it? Completely destroys the whole principle of average score based handicapping! The details will eventually getnpublished and we will know.


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## Crow (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It wonâ€™t be an every round counts I believe - it will be every round that you want to count plus comps which then opens it up to more people to manufacture their HC as high as possible and indeed as low as possible
		
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But on any given day there are likely to be several players wanting their round to count and if they play more carefully because of that then it'll effect everyone else playing on that day.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

Crow said:



			But on any given day there are likely to be several players wanting their round to count and if they play more carefully because of that then it'll effect everyone else playing on that day.
		
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The same as if they are doing a supplementary card just like now - you would hope that when people do cards for HC they still follow pace of play regulations . Do we really expect the course to full of people doing scorecards ?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we really expect the course to full of people doing scorecards ?
		
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Well clearly there are a huge number of people who believe this is what should happen!  There's a strong argument that compmrounds will really grind to a halt because currently 0.1 is 0.1...going forwards every shot could be relevant to your average calculation!

The counter argument, which generally drives US golfers, is that because every card counts they are more relaxed about their cards generally, and bad ones won't necessarily count at all (ever).


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			The counter argument, which generally drives US golfers, is that because every card counts they are more relaxed about their cards generally, and bad ones won't necessarily count at all (ever).
		
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Certainly was true in NZ under their version, it's just another game of golf and in my experience rounds out there were quicker than here .


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## garyinderry (Feb 20, 2018)

Will most peoples handicaps initially rise to begin with. 


In the current system you only really have to have a decent round every now and again to get a nice cut.  If you average out your scores over a period of time, the average score is likely to be above your current handicap. 

Is that right?


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Will most peoples handicaps initially rise to begin with. 


In the current system you only really have to have a decent round every now and again to get a nice cut.  If you average out your scores over a period of time, the average score is likely to be above your current handicap. 

Is that right?
		
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In my experience it was the other way round in NZ but that may have been due to always playing in pretty decent conditions . It was noticed that the more elderly members handicaps would go out over the Winter months then drop again once the course dried up a bit


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

The implementation will vary according to each national union's requirements.

The average of the best 8 of the last 20 will be universal.
Unions will continue to be able to bias toward play of comps and/or all singles rounds.
Categories will go.
Daily score adjustments will come in for non comp scores but comps will have a separate calculation
'Social' scores (in US) will have similar rules to our supplementary scores. ie predeclared with marker
Net double bogey will be universal


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## BTatHome (Feb 20, 2018)

An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and _*factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control *_

The highlighted may reduce the ability to manipulate the system quickly.


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2018)

Looks like it will do away with the need to have a handicap committee, the annual review and continuous reviews as it will all become automatic if the players submit enough cards.


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2018)

OK so currently Im a bad 7 handicapper (6.7). Just looked at my last 20 comp scores (i dont record other scores). Taking the best 8 gives me an average of 7.5. Taking the last 8 gives me an average of 13.6

Im guessing for those of us who have been injured and/or got worse, handicaps gonna rise a bit quicker under this method! Or am i missing something?


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

MendieGK said:



			Struggling to find out how weather conditions affect the USGA system, can you shed any light mate?
		
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No it doesn't but a calculation that considers the impact that abnormal course and weather conditions does in Australia.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Looks like it will do away with the need to have a handicap committee, the annual review and continuous reviews as it will all become automatic if the players submit enough cards.
		
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Committee will have a primary responsibility to watch for abnormal patterns!

We have only just opened the floodgates on supplementals under CONGU so theres no real experience of what such an approach might drive (against the current paradigm of Q and non Q events and prize tables). Anecdotally there has been increasing manipulation of handicaps but it's impossible to quantify it.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

Junior said:



			Interesting times.  For some reason i cant open the article.  Does it say whether you have to declare the round for handicap purposes on the tee before a social game ?
		
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That will be a requirement


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

Crow said:



			I can't see "every round to count" helping with the current pace of play crisis so often flagged as a reason for golf's falling popularity. 
Surely some will play every round with the intensity and slowness of a medal competition?
		
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Net double bogey max score will help


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2018)

Can see this having huge implications. We have a number of groups playing social roll ups at weekends and in the week and I don't think any of those would want their handicap on the line every time so no doubt will introduce give me's on every hole to make it non-qualifying. Will this have an implication on people joining clubs, especially those that are happy being social golfers and may only want to play a handful of competitions a year.


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2018)

I have just done a quick check on my own handicap.

It remains unchanged using the new calculation.

Obviously this is just based on qualifying rounds but I think there is not a lot of difference between them and 'social' round because virtually every social game I play is in a swindle.

The only real difference will become the need to putt out every time for most of the guys I play with.


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2018)

One my concerns though is that the majority of play for me is off the yellow tees and I would not really want a handicap based upon the yellow tees rather than the white tees.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

Why do you need to putt out every time ? 

Not every round will automatically qualify for HC purposes - still plenty of scope for just social golf - there would be much difference between this and the supplementary cards.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can see this having huge implications. We have a number of groups playing social roll ups at weekends and in the week and I don't think any of those would want their handicap on the line every time so no doubt will introduce give me's on every hole to make it non-qualifying. Will this have an implication on people joining clubs, especially those that are happy being social golfers and may only want to play a handful of competitions a year.
		
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Dont think you have read this right Homer.

Basically nothing has changed for us In this regard; comps plus sup plementals counting, but the basis of calculation will change (how much will depend on the fudge factors)


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you need to putt out every time ? 

Not every round will automatically qualify for HC purposes - still plenty of scope for just social golf - there would be much difference between this and the supplementary cards.
		
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I was referring to the fact that cards/score submitted will have to have been played to qualifying conditions.


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## Grant85 (Feb 20, 2018)

8 in last 20 will certainly put a lot of guys up the way. 

I played with guys who were high teens or low 20s, but only played 3 strokeplay medals a year, all well above buffer & went up 0.1. Their handicap was maintained and they used it to play in social sweeps, knock out comps, social match play & Texas scrambles.

Obviously they are not exactly robbing anyone by keeping an artificially low handicap. 

I guess its swings & roundabouts as nothing worse than a d.bogey will prob bring many poor stroke play rounds back into handicap contention.


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## MendieGK (Feb 20, 2018)

rulefan said:



			No it doesn't but a calculation that considers the impact that abnormal course and weather conditions does in Australia.

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Does the initial slope take into account usual weather conditions in the area?
For example a links course where SSS is +1 but due to wind usually rises to a CSS of +3


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

MendieGK said:



			Does the initial slope take into account usual weather conditions in the area?
For example a links course where SSS is +1 but due to wind usually rises to a CSS of +3
		
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Not sure about your example - SSS and all course rating systems base the underlying resting on the normal weather conditions.

So for most links courses an unusual lack of wind is more likely to trigger a reduction in the rating.


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## MendieGK (Feb 20, 2018)

fundy said:



			OK so currently Im a bad 7 handicapper (6.7). Just looked at my last 20 comp scores (i dont record other scores). Taking the best 8 gives me an average of 7.5. Taking the last 8 gives me an average of 13.6

Im guessing for those of us who have been injured and/or got worse, handicaps gonna rise a bit quicker under this method! Or am i missing something?
		
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Itâ€™s definitely best 8 not last 8. Itâ€™s so much more than CSS obviously, but if it was I was -18 to CSS for my best 8 rounds so would be off +2 ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2018)

MendieGK said:



			Itâ€™s definitely best 8 not last 8. Itâ€™s so much more than CSS obviously, but if it was I was -18 to CSS for my best 8 rounds so would be off +2 ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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I know its best 8, but looking at last 8 as a comparison gives an interesting view on where it could be heading!

Enjoy giving the course 2 shots haha


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			One my concerns though is that the majority of play for me is off the yellow tees and I would not really want a handicap based upon the yellow tees rather than the white tees.
		
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The slope will account for that


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Dont think you have read this right Homer.

Basically nothing has changed for us In this regard; comps plus sup plementals counting, but the basis of calculation will change (how much will depend on the fudge factors)
		
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A very long way from being au fait with all things handicap but copying and pasting from the article

Features of the new system include social rounds counting towards handicap and an average-based handicap which takes into account your best 8 of the last 20 scores. - Social rounds to count I would take to include weekly roll ups. Reading the article thats the implication I took

Flexibility in formats of play, allowing both competitive and recreational rounds to count for handicap purposes and ensuring that a golferâ€™s handicap is more reflective of potential ability  - Again reading that, it implies the onus in social cards being made to count. 

I don't think a lot of our Cat 1 players will be happy as they'll want to retain that status especially as a few play in local open events, some which have ballots to get in. 

I'm sure I've read too much into it and would enjoy being put right. Not sure all the old boys at the club will want to be handing cards in for the Coffin Dodgers roll up twice a week. They all play the senior competitions twice a month so all have an active handicap which I would argue is as much of a realistic handicap as this system is intending. None are sandbagging their handicap at all and given the number of comps in a year they play why add the need to hand more cards in?


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			The only real difference will become the need to putt out every time for most of the guys I play with.
		
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Why? Net double bogey is the highest counting score.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			One my concerns though is that the majority of play for me is off the yellow tees and I would not really want a handicap based upon the yellow tees rather than the white tees.
		
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You will have a different handicap when you play off different tees (or different course). The more difficult the course the higher your allowance.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A very long way from being au fait with all things handicap but copying and pasting from the article

Features of the new system include social rounds counting towards handicap and an average-based handicap which takes into account your best 8 of the last 20 scores. - Social rounds to count I would take to include weekly roll ups. Reading the article thats the implication I took
		
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'Social' rounds will have to be pre registered like supplementary scores if they are to be used for handicap calculations. But they don't have to be used.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2018)

Do many people hand in supplementary cards? I don't know that I hear that happening at our place. Maybe they do but I don't think it is common.


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## Khamelion (Feb 20, 2018)

As for bounce games with mates when just out enjoying the fact you are out having a laugh, why would anyone want those rounds to count?

The assumption so far in this thread that people are playing their home course, what about playing away, forum meets, there are plenty of those.

I can see this being brilliant for the bandits who want as high a handicap as possible so they can clean up at open comps, and similarly for those who want to play on a low handicap for vanity purposes, but for the rest of us who play a weekend comp at their home course and the odd mid week game through the longer summer days, I don't see much if anything changing.

For bounce games the only change will be if the club enforces a strict every card must be returned policy which would then make all rounds count. Could also be interesting for those that N/R on a regular basis as well.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 20, 2018)

Have they published any details on the nitty gritty of this, all the links I've seen are a fairly banal press release?

Can't say I like the idea but maybe the implementation details would allay some of my concerns.


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## Dasit (Feb 20, 2018)

If you afraid of putting a social round in because it will change your handicap, maybe your handicap is just a vanity hc, and you are actually a worse player than it suggests.


The current system can be silly, so many people I play with put in 3 cards a year and have a totally meaningless handicap, which they then tell everyone is their standard.


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2018)

Dasit said:



			If you afraid of putting a social round in because it will change your handicap, maybe your handicap is just a vanity hc, and you are actually a worse player than it suggests.


The current system can be silly, so many people I play with put in 3 cards a year and have a totally meaningless handicap, which they then tell everyone is their standard.
		
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i dont know about others but for me its more about i dont  play my social rounds to competition rules and dont really want to start to after 30 years. My handicap is currently too low after a couple of injuries, maybe ill get one i can play to in 2020


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## Dasit (Feb 20, 2018)

fundy said:



			i dont know about others but for me its more about i dont  play my social rounds to competition rules and dont really want to start to after 30 years. My handicap is currently too low after a couple of injuries, maybe ill get one i can play to in 2020 

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Ok fair enough


I play all my golf to full rules...actually has made me a much better player in a short time span.

I pretty much always play for money, even if just a fiver so expect others I play with to follow rules too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2018)

Dasit said:



			If you afraid of putting a social round in because it will change your handicap, maybe your handicap is just a vanity hc, and you are actually a worse player than it suggests.


The current system can be silly, so many people I play with put in 3 cards a year and have a totally meaningless handicap, which they then tell everyone is their standard.
		
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For the majority of people social rounds are rounds for enjoyment without the pressures of a Comp and the HC being on the line - itâ€™s about having fun and being social and the odd gimmies etc - social golf is a big make up of the fabric of the game in the uk - change it and it will lose members to the sport and many will just forget about Comp golf and make their own HCs up


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2018)

Dasit said:



			Ok fair enough


I play all my golf to full rules...actually has made me a much better player in a short time span.

I pretty much always play for money, even if just a fiver so expect others I play with to follow rules too.
		
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nah in bounce games there will be plenty of gimmes and the odd bit of practising (especially short game), i guess ill just have to hole out and hit a lot of provisionals 

happy to play for money under these conditions (albeit tiny stakes as im losing most games haha)


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## User 99 (Feb 20, 2018)

Dasit said:



			and you are actually a worse player than it suggests.
		
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Isn't that the case for the vast majority of players other than bandits.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 20, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A very long way from being au fait with all things handicap but copying and pasting from the article

Features of the new system include social rounds counting towards handicap and an average-based handicap which takes into account your best 8 of the last 20 scores. - Social rounds to count I would take to include weekly roll ups. Reading the article thats the implication I took

l
		
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As Rulefan has alreadynexplained, and subsequentlynresponded to your post, social rounds to be included is to be on a par with the existing supplemental rules.

Put another way; the more I look at the combination of calculation and scores to count the more I see the underlying matrix being on a par with the existing (new this year) CONGU basis incorporating the splope rating elements.

Personally I plan to return a card for every time I'm heading out to play 18 holes with other members - and that will include matches if those cards can be returned (as they're under the USGA  provisions (but given the above I'm starting to think they will be excluded!)


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## Grant85 (Feb 20, 2018)

It would certainly be stupid to enforce social rounds to count towards a handicap. Maybe they want to encourage more people to keep a score and that fine, but enforcing is not practical. 

After all a social round is just that. Plus many people play match play format which can mean totally different shot selection & reacting to your opponents shot rather than protect your score.

You our can certainly declare before you play that you are going to hand in the card & obviously have to hole out etc if you want to try & improve your handicap.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the majority of people social rounds are rounds for enjoyment without the pressures of a Comp and the HC being on the line - itâ€™s about having fun and being social and the odd gimmies etc - social golf is a big make up of the fabric of the game in the uk - change it and it will lose members to the sport and many will just forget about Comp golf and make their own HCs up
		
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There is no compulsion to return 'social' cards or even to play by the rules. 
But if you you want a handicap that reflects your ability, then the more 'legitimate' cards you put in the better.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			It would certainly be stupid to enforce social rounds to count towards a handicap.
		
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They are not.


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## garyinderry (Feb 20, 2018)

rulefan said:



			They are not.
		
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I get it.   you don't have to put in every card. 

Its just the way your handicap is calculated is different (8from20). 

The option is there to include any rounds played to full rules. 

If you want a social game and not bother about your handicap then you are also free to do so.


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the majority of people social rounds are rounds for enjoyment without the pressures of a Comp and the HC being on the line - itâ€™s about having fun and being social and the odd gimmies etc - social golf is a big make up of the fabric of the game in the uk - change it and it will lose members to the sport and many will just forget about Comp golf and make their own HCs up
		
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I was pretty much of that mindset when I went out to NZ but after six months or so it had changed and it was just another round of golf and certainly since coming back dont have the "fear" of "oh no it's a Medal round " with I think has helped me be a better player with card in hand now than before.
We used to have gimmies , allowed out there and there was a certain amount of practising around the greens too so long as not impinging  on others .


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## Grant85 (Feb 20, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			I was pretty much of that mindset when I went out to NZ but after six months or so it had changed and it was just another round of golf and certainly since coming back dont have the "fear" of "oh no it's a Medal round " with I think has helped me be a better player with card in hand now than before.
We used to have gimmies , allowed out there and there was a certain amount of practising around the greens too so long as not impinging  on others .
		
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This is a good point, but practically it would take a lot longer for golf to get played on non-competition days.


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			I was pretty much of that mindset when I went out to NZ but after six months or so it had changed and it was just another round of golf and certainly since coming back dont have the "fear" of "oh no it's a Medal round " with I think has helped me be a better player with card in hand now than before.
We used to have gimmies , allowed out there and there was a certain amount of practising around the greens too so long as not impinging  on others .
		
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that sounds manageable


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			This is a good point, but practically it would take a lot longer for golf to get played on non-competition days.
		
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Not sure, get to double bogey and then pick up . Admittedly courses out there a lot quieter but as mentioned above rounds a lot quicker and every one was pretty much putting cards in for every round !!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2018)

Presumably you still need someone to sign your card, even if not playing in a competition?


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## Khamelion (Feb 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the majority of people social rounds are rounds for enjoyment without the pressures of a Comp and the HC being on the line - itâ€™s about having fun and being social and the odd gimmies etc - social golf is a big make up of the fabric of the game in the uk - change it and it will lose members to the sport and many will just forget about Comp golf and make their own HCs up
		
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I would say a lot of golfers already do, don't mean that flippantly, I mean my dad plays  two or three times a week with the other seniors and they have their own seniors HC used for they play together, his club HC is different but then he doesn't play in any club competitions and golf for my dada and his mates is purely to get out the house, get some exercise and a bit chat in the clubhouse bar afterwards.


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## Khamelion (Feb 20, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Personally I plan to return a card for every time I'm heading out to play 18 holes with other members - and that will include matches if those cards can be returned (as they're under the USGA  provisions (but given the above I'm starting to think they will be excluded!)
		
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I've got no intention of retuning any of my social rounds, unless there is a club rule or bylaw that says I must.


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## azazel (Feb 20, 2018)

Very pleased at the suggestion that there might not be an obligation to submit all social rounds as that would've been a bit of a spoiler for me. Being able to decide in advance of a social round if we are submitting scores will be much better.

I did a quick calculation and the best eight scores from my last 20, based on score over CSS, would give me an average of 5.25. My current handicap is 5.4 so it's pretty accurate in that regard.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2018)

Khamelion said:



			I've got no intention of retuning any of my social rounds, unless there is a club rule or bylaw that says I must.
		
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That's what I was thinking too. Not sure many of our roll ups will do but I'll wait and see what happens when this is rolled out properly and what my club says on the matter


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## BTatHome (Feb 20, 2018)

I'd be inclined to enter all my rounds. Pretty much ever round i play is played within the rules and competitively, so it would be a truer reflection on my handicap to use all of them


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2018)

azazel said:



			Very pleased at the suggestion that there might not be an obligation to submit all social rounds
		
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It's not a suggestion or a 'might not'. There will not be an obligation.


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## Slab (Feb 21, 2018)

Pretty exciting times ahead what with the Rules and Handicapping undergoing huge changes 

I'm all for submitting more scores from non-comp golf (and especially from different courses) 

I wonder what the average number of supplementary cards submitted per UK club member is in a year? It might well be pretty low (i.e an average of less than 1) so this may be a big adjustment for some, but if it helps handicap accuracy and how it travels then it's got to be good 

It'll cut out all the, my roll-up handicap is x, my club handicap is y, my society handicap is z


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## Wayman (Feb 21, 2018)

https://www.facebook.com/EnglandGolf/videos/1779277518757885/
27 seconds in is that fish?


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2018)

Wayman said:



https://www.facebook.com/EnglandGolf/videos/1779277518757885/
27 seconds in is that fish?
		
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That's our Robin.
Game at last!!


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			It's not a suggestion or a 'might not'. There will not be an obligation.
		
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Where you getting your info from? Itâ€™d be great to read some detail on the proposals?


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## upanddown (Feb 21, 2018)

This is honestly confusing the life out of me, and I'm on the handicap committee and know the current system inside out.

Will it be calculated against Gross score to CSS ?
So the average score over CSS is your handicap ?

If so, this is going to play havoc with matchplay comps.

Guy that has won our main matchplay board comp two years in a row is off 12, his handicap would be 15 if this system was introduced if based on gross score to CSS.
And this is a guy that plays plenty of qualifiers, possibly 30 a year, so not someone protecting a handicap, someone who is actively trying to get lower.

He will breeze the comp every year


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## Capella (Feb 21, 2018)

I really don't see the neccessity of this. How many amateur golfers do compete internationally anyway? But that said, I don't much care how the handicap is calculated. It will never be "perfect" and cover all eventualities. It is just there to level the playing field a bit between a good player and a weekend hacker, so that they can still go out and have a competitive round against each other. And the US, UK and EGA system all seem to do that more or less equally well within their own system.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2018)

Capella said:



			I really don't see the neccessity of this. How many amateur golfers do compete internationally anyway? But that said, I don't much care how the handicap is calculated. It will never be "perfect" and cover all eventualities. It is just there to level the playing field a bit between a good player and a weekend hacker, so that they can still go out and have a competitive round against each other. And the US, UK and EGA system all seem to do that more or less equally well within their own system.
		
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I agree


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Where you getting your info from? Itâ€™d be great to read some detail on the proposals?
		
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A presentation by England Golf to its Handicap Advisers.

It is being rolled out to club handicap secretaries in presentations around the country during the next few months


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

upanddown said:



			This is honestly confusing the life out of me, and I'm on the handicap committee and know the current system inside out.

Will it be calculated against Gross score to CSS ?
So the average score over CSS is your handicap ?
		
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Average of the best 8 from the last 20. Not average score.





			If so, this is going to play havoc with matchplay comps.

Guy that has won our main matchplay board comp two years in a row is off 12, his handicap would be 15 if this system was introduced if based on gross score to CSS.
And this is a guy that plays plenty of qualifiers, possibly 30 a year, so not someone protecting a handicap, someone who is actively trying to get lower.

He will breeze the comp every year 

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What will happen to the handicaps of his opponents? Won't they be different?


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## Green Man (Feb 21, 2018)

My handicap is 5.4 and having worked out my best 8 from the last 20 I would be at 4.8 so I guesss that it is pretty similar. I would imagine that when this is introduced there will be plenty of bitching and moaning then after a year or two it will just become normal.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2018)

You'd be better off bringing in a better course rating system prior to bringing in a uniform handicapping system. 

The current system just doesn't work.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

As far as I can see the main difference other than best 8 from 20 is that a handicap will go from a measure of your potential in competative golf to a measure of your potential across the board: social and competative.

In the end I doubt it will make much difference, you may get people artificially keeping their handicap high, but they can do this now of they so wish. It's why we have handicap committees, to try and keep a check on them.

I really like the idea of 54 holes to get a handicap in any format. Often I only have time for 9, it took me ages to get a handicap again because I have a 5 day membership and just couldn't get 3 rounds of 18 together. 

It makes sense to harmonise the handicapping system around the world, it does smack a little of the US dictating to us but after reading the article in GM it doesn't seem too onerous a change and means playing anybody from any other country will just be a simple comparison. 

Whereas I read not long ago that a British person will be better than a US player with the same handicap as their handicap was gained solely through competition golf with the added pressure and slower pace of play.


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

Can't say i'm over the moon by this move.  Guys i've seen play who already use this system had vastly inaccurate handicaps compared with ability. Plus what happens at the clubs where you could in effect be on winter greens for 5 months with a vastly shorter course.

At the moment we have a comp handicap, so are going to move to a social handicap ?

Also this system looks like its easier to manipulate. at the moment 8 bad scores could mean your handicap only really goes up a shot in that time, whats going to happen here, going from 10 to 20 in the same time?


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Can't say i'm over the moon by this move.  Guys i've seen play who already use this system had vastly inaccurate handicaps compared with ability. Plus what happens at the clubs where you could in effect be on winter greens for 5 months with a vastly shorter course.

At the moment we have a comp handicap, so are going to move to a social handicap ?

Also this system looks like its easier to manipulate. at the moment 8 bad scores could mean your handicap only really goes up a shot in that time, whats going to happen here, going from 10 to 20 in the same time?
		
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I don't think it will be a social handicap as obviously competitions will count towards your handicap. At worst it will be a mix, but as it has been pointed out you don't HAVE to put in your social round cards. I suppose for people who can't get out early on weekends they will be able to keep their handicaps, or if you are consistently playing very well it will be a quicker way to lower your handicap.


As for winter, either just don't put in your social rounds, in which case it won't be any different to what we have now.


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## garyinderry (Feb 21, 2018)

Going to be silly when decent players get a serious bout of the sha*ks.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 21, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			You'd be better off bringing in a better course rating system prior to bringing in a uniform handicapping system. 

The current system just doesn't work.
		
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From a focus group I went to last year, a new course rating was proposed. Alongside that, the weather on the day will be taken into account, how everyone else did daily. 

How itâ€™ll all be implemented here I donâ€™t know but hopefully like the states are getting. Handicaps updated automatically daily, scores inputted through an app or the computer. 


Take a look at the US sites that are reporting on this, youâ€™ll get a better idea. Nothing much changes their way.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

Change of subject a bit, but just seen you're form the Highlands.

Have you played Aberfoyle? I was in the highlands last year near Callendar and kept driving past it. Didn't have my clubs with me so couldn't play but it looked like a beautiful course with some cracking views.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			A presentation by England Golf to its Handicap Advisers.

It is being rolled out to club handicap secretaries in presentations around the country during the next few months
		
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Thatâ€™s a shame. Wish theyâ€™d put some detail out instead of a press release.


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## azazel (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			It's not a suggestion or a 'might not'. There will not be an obligation.
		
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Is that going to be global? If Americans are currently required to submit all scores they won't be once the new global system is in place?


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			Change of subject a bit, but just seen you're form the Highlands.

Have you played Aberfoyle? I was in the highlands last year near Callendar and kept driving past it. Didn't have my clubs with me so couldn't play but it looked like a beautiful course with some cracking views.
		
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isn't that Stirling way? not really the highlands, more central belt. I'm in Inverness. 

no never played it


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			isn't that Stirling way? not really the highlands, more central belt. I'm in Inverness. 

no never played it
		
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It's in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park. Very much the southern bit of the Highlands. A very long way from you though nevermind


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			It's in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park. Very much the southern bit of the Highlands. A very long way from you though nevermind
		
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if you say so:rofl:


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2018)

How will this work at clubs that don't have a PSI system?
There could dozens of cards coming in every day and someone needs to process them...
If you have a computer system that players use, it will be fairly easy. Sign in to confirm the round will count, input the scores after the round, just like a comp, and let the computer do its thing. But what if the computer is down? Ours was for 3 days last month...
But with no PSI system - who does it?
It will need someone present virtually every day to get the cards processed. Leave it a couple of days and you might have a days work.
The impact on smaller clubs could be huge...
The new system also means that people don't have to play competitions. They can get their handicap from more relaxed, albeit still mildly competitive games.
It will also bring in the possibility of playing to an incorrect handicap as it could change after every round
At the moment you can calculate your own cut against SSS if you've put in a good score - allowing you to play off, potentially, your new handicap before the card is processed. With the new system, if your card isn't processed on the same day, with this "massaging" calculation, you'll have no idea what you'll be playing off next game..
A lot of questions but not many real answers.....
Interesting times ahead


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 21, 2018)

Back on topic.. 

Take your best 8 medals out of your last 20 comps. (Or non comp, your choice come 2020) 

Use default UK course and slope rating if you donâ€™t have one at yours. 70-113

Enter into a free USGA handicap calculator. See what you get! 

I got 10 hcp 4 shots off. Should be single figure come WHS adoption.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 21, 2018)

Imurg said:



			How will this work at clubs that don't have a PSI system?
There could dozens of cards coming in every day and someone needs to process them...
If you have a computer system that players use, it will be fairly easy. Sign in to confirm the round will count, input the scores after the round, just like a comp, and let the computer do its thing. But what if the computer is down? Ours was for 3 days last month...
But with no PSI system - who does it?
It will need someone present virtually every day to get the cards processed. Leave it a couple of days and you might have a days work.
The impact on smaller clubs could be huge...
The new system also means that people don't have to play competitions. They can get their handicap from more relaxed, albeit still mildly competitive games.
It will also bring in the possibility of playing to an incorrect handicap as it could change after every round
At the moment you can calculate your own cut against SSS if you've put in a good score - allowing you to play off, potentially, your new handicap before the card is processed. With the new system, if your card isn't processed on the same day, with this "massaging" calculation, you'll have no idea what you'll be playing off next game..
A lot of questions but not many real answers.....
Interesting times ahead
		
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App on your phone in the states or computer. So maybe that way?   But clubs (and players) have two years to implement and modernise and get a basic terminal for daily score inputs, and to receive their handicap for the day. 

Assuming we get more with the times and the USGA way.


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Why? Net double bogey is the highest counting score.
		
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Because virtually every single swindle I play in allows 'gimmes' and if the players want the cards to count for handicap purposes they will have to putt out


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

Jamesbrown said:



			App on your phone in the states or computer. So maybe that way?   But clubs (and players) have two years to implement and modernise and get a basic terminal for daily score inputs, and to receive their handicap for the day. 

Assuming we get more with the times and the USGA way.
		
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I was always pretty sceptical about changing, but the more I look into and read about the USPGA handicap system the more it makes sense.

As a junior my course wouldn't be described as hard, but it was very difficult to score around. Meaning our handicaps were always a couple shots higher than our peers on different courses. Whilst of course this benefited us in club matches and the leagues it highlights where the US system is better.

By having a handicap index and slope rating, every course you play your handicap will for that course will be about right. Whereas those who play off 6 on a flat, open course with no hazards get a shock when they play a tough links or a course with lots of water.

As for putting in for every round, it will be strange to start with. But I think it won't take long for it to become the norm, by 2022 will be wondering what all the fuss was about. As for manipulating your handicap, there was a good thread on wrx that explained the differences and it seems that the US system generally create lower handicaps than the UK system so take that however you  like.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Because virtually every single swindle I play in allows 'gimmes' and if the players want the cards to count for handicap purposes they will have to putt out
		
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According to the USPGA rules, for a card to count you have to play at least 7 holes within the laws for a 9 hole submission and 13 holes for an 18 hole submission. So if on some holes you don't hole out according to the USPGA you should record a net par.

But if they are genuine gimmes, say within 3 feet, they should be simple putts anyway. Just get in the habit of holing out


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Can't say i'm over the moon by this move.  Guys i've seen play who already use this system had vastly inaccurate handicaps compared with ability. Plus what happens at the clubs where you could in effect be on winter greens for 5 months with a vastly shorter course.

At the moment we have a comp handicap, so are going to move to a social handicap ?

Also this system looks like its easier to manipulate. at the moment 8 bad scores could mean your handicap only really goes up a shot in that time, whats going to happen here, going from 10 to 20 in the same time?
		
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If there are more than 2 temporary greens the card cannot be used for handicap purposes. At least that is the rule at present.


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			According to the USPGA rules, for a card to count you have to play at least 7 holes within the laws for a 9 hole submission and 13 holes for an 18 hole submission. So if on some holes you don't hole out according to the USPGA you should record a net par.

But if they are genuine gimmes, say within 3 feet, they should be simple putts anyway. Just get in the habit of holing out
		
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But what if the 'gimme' putt was for a gross birdie.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			But what if the 'gimme' putt was for a gross birdie.
		
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Then hole it out. As I say if it is a genuine gimme, not a very generous one. Then people should be able to hole it anyway (otherwise it shouldn't be a gimme) it won't take long to hole a gimme length putt. Again it's just about getting into the habit


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

sounds like it will prob slow play down a bit if all of a sudden scores that weren't counted before suddenly do, with more people putting social cards in as well


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## Khamelion (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Can't say i'm over the moon by this move.  Guys i've seen play who already use this system had vastly inaccurate handicaps compared with ability. Plus what happens at the clubs where you could in effect be on winter greens for 5 months with a vastly shorter course.

At the moment we have a comp handicap, so are going to move to a social handicap ?

Also this system looks like its easier to manipulate. at the moment 8 bad scores could mean your handicap only really goes up a shot in that time, whats going to happen here, going from 10 to 20 in the same time?
		
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My old club had a Winter Comp HC, as none of the competitions played were qualifiers, and during the wetter winter months when the course was open, the course was shorter, off winter tees played to winter greens, sometimes off mats, other times teed up on the fairway, or the ball moved to play from the semi, that lot is hardly a reflection of competitive golf appropriate for HC calculation.


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## Crazyface (Feb 21, 2018)

This has all been thought up by bean counters sitting behind desks with no idea about the real world. Just ignore it. Totally unenforceable.


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## r0wly86 (Feb 21, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			This has all been thought up by bean counters sitting behind desks with no idea about the real world. Just ignore it. Totally unenforceable.
		
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It's the system used by the majority of the world's golfers. It must work reasonably well if different to our system


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			This has all been thought up by bean counters sitting behind desks with no idea about the real world. Just ignore it. Totally unenforceable.
		
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Not sure why you think that when this system has been in place in the USA for years.


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## rosecott (Feb 21, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			This has all been thought up by bean counters sitting behind desks with no idea about the real world. Just ignore it. Totally unenforceable.
		
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That's just what this thread needs - a cutting edge insight.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2018)

Presumably your clubs PSI will need to be loaded with every other club card in the country? For example if I play a round away at The Belfry I will need to input the round when I return to my home club. To do that I will need to bring up the Belfry on our computer. Is that correct? Alternatively, would I input it into the computer at The Belfry and start by giving my CDH number?


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## Cols_Ears (Feb 21, 2018)

I know most people don't like change, and this will certainly change the way handicaps are calculated and viewed for everyone in the UK. I've always liked the CONGU system, but at the current time in my life (family and work getting in the way of golf, and I'm now a member of a club which has less comps) I'm struggling to play many medal rounds - last year I only managed 4! So for me I am starting to think this is a pretty good system, it will mean that we have handicaps that are more "current" and keep pace with seasonal variations in our games.

There seems to be a lot of people complaining they want to play social games without the "pressure" of having a card - As someone already mentioned after a while this attitude will change as we come to view it differently, and the pressure of a medal will decrease dramatically as it will be just another round. As for gimmies - surely by definition they are normally only for putts that you have a very good chance of holing anyway and in the games I play always inside 3', I hole about 95% of putts from that length and it doesn't normally involve more than a few seconds - so the pace of play argument doesn't work for me. 

All courses in the world will now need to be rated and have a slope index - all the courses in Scotland already have this. Each set of tees has an individual course rating and slope index which is more detailed than our existing SSS. For instance on my course the Yellow Tees have a course rating of 71.8 and a slope of 138 (71/138) White is 73/141 and Blue is 74.8/144 - all to a par of 71. The slope index for a course of average difficulty is 113 - this is a key number.

As I understand it each counting score differential (of the 8 from 20) is based on the following calc; Score - Course rating *(113/ Slope Index).

eg Suppose I shot 79 from the whites My scorring differential would be 79 - 73 * (113/141) = 4.8
then I shot 80 from the blues  80-74.8 * (113/144) = 4.1

Do this for your best 8 rounds (on whatever course or tee you have played) take the average and you end up with your handicap. This does not take account of weather or CSS of course - not sure how they are going to include this yet and the fact they haven't told us I guess they haven't bottomed it out either.

The application of your handicap on courses other than your home course is another subject, but again involves using the slope index adjustment to account for easier or more difficult courses...

I think this combined with the proposed simplified rules is progression forwards. I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement, but it's going to happen whether we like it or not.


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## DCB (Feb 21, 2018)

Keep it on track gents, not pops at other forum users please.


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## Wabinez (Feb 21, 2018)

I just did a very rough calculation from my last 20 competition scores, and took the best 8.  Averaged out, against par, I would be off 7 (if that is how it is worked out).  I am currently off 6, so the differential isn't too great whatsoever.  Funky!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2018)

Mine would drop to 3.1 

If added in social rounds then it would drop to 2


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			You'd be better off bringing in a better course rating system prior to bringing in a uniform handicapping system. 

The current system just doesn't work.
		
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A new course rating system is in the process of being introduced. It is the one used everywhere else in the world except by England men.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Cols_Ears said:



			This does not take account of weather or CSS of course - not sure how they are going to include this yet and the fact they haven't told us I guess they haven't bottomed it out either.
		
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CSS as such will go. It will be the differential between the (net double bogey) score, slope adjusted handicap and the course rating that produces the answer.
There will be a potential for an abnormal course/weather conditions adjustment (likely to be small) as in Australia but the math hasn't been finalised.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Just a reminder to those who haven't registered it yet. Social score entry will not be compulsory. The process will be virtually the same as the CONGU supplementary scores and it will be optional.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			A new course rating system is in the process of being introduced. It is the one used everywhere else in the world except by England men.
		
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According to a very recent post on my local unions website they completed the rating of 7 courses in 2017 and expect to complete 7 more in both 2018 and 2019....leaving 9 courses unrated at the start of 2020...doesn't fill me with much confidence that we will all be singing off the same songsheets when the new system comes into play...I wonder how many other county unions will be in a similar state at the beginning of 2020?.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

azazel said:



			Is that going to be global? If Americans are currently required to submit all scores they won't be once the new global system is in place?
		
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That will be at the discretion of the relevant national handicapping authority.

The premise was/is that provision would be made for 'traditional ways'.

So 'all scores' or 'comp only' or a mixture would be available. Course rating and handicap calculations would be the same.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			According to a very recent post on my local unions website they completed the rating of 7 courses in 2017 and expect to complete 7 more in both 2018 and 2019....leaving 9 courses unrated at the start of 2020...doesn't fill me with much confidence that we will all be singing off the same songsheets when the new system comes into play...I wonder how many other county unions will be in a similar state at the beginning of 2020?.
		
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The rating figures for scratch players being produced show very little variation from the old SSS. The problem will be the slope adjustment for handicappers. EG is working on a temporary formula to fill the time gap. 
The rate of new ratings is improving significantly. My county has just tripled the number of rating teams.


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Mine would drop to 3.1 

If added in social rounds then it would drop to 2
		
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sounds more accurate than the current system to me


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Guys i've seen play who already use this system had vastly inaccurate handicaps compared with ability. Plus what happens at the clubs where you could in effect be on winter greens for 5 months with a vastly shorter course.
		
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There are no guys using this system at present. All of the six systems round the world will face greater or lesser changes.

If a course (ie measured tee to green) has not been rated, scores will not count. There may be an exception for less that three temp greens as now - but not confirmed yet.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			This has all been thought up by bean counters sitting behind desks with no idea about the real world. Just ignore it. Totally unenforceable.
		
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It is an amalgam of what is perceived to be the best parts of the six systems already in use around the world. Those that are doing all the work are all experienced golfer of all standards and ages. They are supported by professional mathematicians who advise on the calculations and statistical effects but they make no decisions.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			I was always pretty sceptical about changing, but the more I look into and read about the USPGA handicap system the more it makes sense.
.
		
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It is the USGA who has the system used in the USA and a variant in Canada.
The USPGA has nothing to do with handicapping


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## Cols_Ears (Feb 21, 2018)

Link to the USGA system that this seems to most closely resemble...

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14367


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## nickjdavis (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			The rating figures for scratch players being produced show very little variation from the old SSS. The problem will be the slope adjustment for handicappers. EG is working on a temporary formula to fill the time gap. 
The rate of new ratings is improving significantly. My county has just tripled the number of rating teams.
		
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Yes...I can see the Course Rating hasn't changed....66.9 v. a current SSS of 67 off the Yellows and 69 v 69 off the whites (Par 70 for both). 

Be interesting to see how our Slope Rating compares to other clubs as we are often considered to be an "easy" course due to our length or perceived lack thereof.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 21, 2018)

Rulefan (since nobody else knows anything about this!  )

Any gender differences in the proposed system?


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			There are no guys using this system at present. All of the six systems round the world will face greater or lesser changes.

If a course (ie measured tee to green) has not been rated, scores will not count. There may be an exception for less that three temp greens as now - but not confirmed yet.
		
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i ment people ive seen using the US system.


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## upsidedown (Feb 21, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Rulefan (since nobody else knows anything about this!  )

Any gender differences in the proposed system?
		
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There were in NZ and can't see any reason why they shouldn't be for the new system, know HID will be will hacked off if there aren't lol


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## the_coach (Feb 21, 2018)

seen as most folks seem to think it's a ways easier to hold a lower index here ......&#128580;

.... will look forwards to seeing everyones handicap index tumble when whs is introduced ... &#129300;

*How Well Should You Play?*

Does it seem to you that you play a few strokes over your Course Handicap most of the time? Well, that's normal under the USGA Handicap System. 
Why? The USGA Handicap System is based upon the potential ability of a player rather than the average of all his scores. The USGA's Handicap Research Team tells us that the average player is expected to play to his Course Handicap or better only about 25 percent of the time, average three strokes higher than his Course Handicap, and have a best score in 20, which is only two strokes better than his Course Handicap. 

 A few words and a little arithmetic may explain. A player's Handicap Index reflects his potential because it is based upon his best scores posted for a given number of rounds, ideally the best 10 of his last 20 rounds. Since the USGA has his worst 10 scores tossed out, his Handicap Index reflects his best days. 

 The arithmetic comes in when the golf club calculates a player's Differential for each score he posts. The Differential is the difference between a player's adjusted gross score and the USGA Course Rating of the course on which the score was made, multiplied by 113, and then the total is divided by the USGA Slope Rating from the tees played rounded off to one decimal place. 

 For example, if you post an 80 on a course with a Course Rating of 68.7 and a Slope Rating of 105, your Handicap Differential is 12.2. The next step entails averaging your best Handicap Differentials, which your golf club or association then will multiply by a 96-percent "bonus for excellence" factor that slightly favors the lower-handicap player. The next step is to delete all numbers after the first decimal digit, with no rounding off to the nearest tenth. Your club Handicap Committee then reviews your record, modifies it, if necessary and then issues your USGA Handicap Index. 

 If you have a USGA Handicap Index of 11.6, for instance, it translates into a Course Handicap of 14 when you play from the middle tees one day at a course with a Course Rating of 72.1, with a Slope Rating of 135. So a little addition (72.1 + 14) leads you to think that you will consistently shoot around 86. In reality, your score average is normally three more strokes than that, or an 89. The USGA Handicap Research Team has determined that your best score in 20 is normally only two strokes better than your Course Handicap, or an 84; the probability of your recording an 83 twice in 20 rounds is only one in 50. 

 A good way to think of the range of scores upon which your USGA Handicap Index is based is the old bell curve that school teachers refer to when discussing the range of scores on an exam. The scores of most players, when plotted out, are distributed on a bell curve from the high to low end of the scale. Thus, when you drop out the worst half of your scores, the average of the remaining 10 scores on the upper part of the bell curve reflect your potential ability. 

 Now, once in a while you will hear about someone shooting an incredible tournament score, such as a net score of 59. What are the odds of shooting a score like that? These tables from the USGA's Handicap Research Team have figured the odds of one exceptional tournament score up to ten strokes better than the Course Handicap. 

 For example, the odds of our example player with a Course Handicap of 14 beating it by eight strokes (-8 net) once is 1,138 to one. Put another way, the average player posts 21 scores a year. That means that to score this well, assuming the Handicap Index is correct, would take 54 years of golf to do it once. The odds of a player beating his Course Handicap by eight strokes twice is only 14,912 to one. That's 710 years of golf for the average player -- odds far beyond the realm of reasonableness. 

 Since the USGA Handicap System is designed to promote fairness during competitions, what happens if a player's scores contradict the odds and he consistently plays better than his Handicap Index when some crystal or trophies are at stake? The USGA has created a Formula - we'll spare you all the complicated arithmetic - that is outlined in the USGA Handicap System manual under Section 10-3, "Reduction of a USGA Handicap Index Based on Exceptional Tournament Scores." A player's USGA Handicap Index will be automatically reduced when he records at least two tournament scores in a calendar year or in his latest 20 rounds that are a minimum of three strokes better than his USGA Handicap Index. The better the scores, the greater the reduction. 

 The end result is you've got your USGA Handicap Index for better or for worse. Don't worry if you never seem to play to it on a given day. All golfers are in the same boat because USGA Handicap Indexes are based on a player's potential ability rather than the average of his scores. You can do your part to make the USGA Handicap System work best by making sure all "great" tournament scores by all players get posted with a "T" so that they are reviewed and used under Section 10-3.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			Rulefan (since nobody else knows anything about this!  )

Any gender differences in the proposed system?
		
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Other than within the Course Rating system and how the playing handicap derives from it, no.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			Yes...I can see the Course Rating hasn't changed....66.9 v. a current SSS of 67 off the Yellows and 69 v 69 off the whites (Par 70 for both). 

Be interesting to see how our Slope Rating compares to other clubs as we are often considered to be an "easy" course due to our length or perceived lack thereof.
		
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The slope does not tell you how difficult a course is.

The Course Rating does that. 

The slope tells you the *relative* difficulty of *that particular set of tees on that particular course* for a model scratch player and a handicap player. The model handicap player used as the basis is a so called 'bogey' play of about 20 handicap


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

the_coach said:



			seen as most folks seem to think it's a ways easier to hold a lower index here ......&#63044;

.... will look forwards to seeing everyones handicap index tumble when whs is introduced ... &#63764;
		
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Note, this is not a wholesale adoption of the USGA system. Although much of what you quoted remains, a deal does not.

The principle of averaging is maintained but the detail is different. Special treatment of Tournament scores is not continued.


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## the_coach (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Note, this is not a wholesale adoption of the USGA system. Although much of what you quoted remains, a deal does not.

The principle of averaging is maintained but the detail is different. Special treatment of Tournament scores is not continued.
		
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yep was aware of all that

someone earlier on in the thread was asking about info on our usga handicap index

so was just posting so they could compare & contrast


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			That will be at the discretion of the relevant national handicapping authority.

The premise was/is that provision would be made for 'traditional ways'.

So 'all scores' or 'comp only' or a mixture would be available. Course rating and handicap calculations would be the same.
		
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rulefan, doesn't that go against the whole idea of a level playing field? If it was to be "comp only" here vs "all scores" in say the US there is absolutely no reason for the change. Unless it can be argued that people generally play as well when under the 'pressure' of a comp as they do with their mates the handicaps of players of the same skill will be different in the UK vs US. Also, for all but CAT 1 you can enter lots of supplementary scores now, to make our's (or any union's) comp scores only makes zero sense and negates the idea of more cards going in to make a more accurate handicap index. 

Essentially it has to be pretty much the same everywhere, if not exactly the same, or it's a pointless change. All social rounds being included by one Union but a handicap in another being calculated by reference to the odd comp round over maybe 2 or 3 years is not the same.

Personally as someone new to the sport I think it's a very good idea. The current system utterly fails to keep track of playing ability if you are rapidly improving or going in the other direction, particularly if many comps aren't at a time you can play. My Dad doesn't currently have the ability to play to his handicap due to advancing years and not playing in that many comps. I hit a 5 handicap in 2 years (lots of practice!). Under the new 2020 system my handicap would currently be hovering around scratch but under the CONGU system it'll take me about 27 comp rounds shot at scratch for my handicap to reflect that. As I can't enter Supplementary rounds as a Cat 1 golfer (as long as I do 3 comps a year, obviously) it'll take a daft amount of time for my handicap to catch up. 27 scratch rounds shot in competition I think.

Anything which helps your handicap reflect where you actually are has to be a good thing. Arguments about "We all give each other gimmees...." or "We don't play by the rules......" don't really hold water with me. Learn to putt and play by the rules. How hard can that be?


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Special treatment of Tournament scores is not continued.
		
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So now I'm REALLY confused 

Comp scores only or no CAT 1 and Supplementary scores (social scores) allowed?


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			Then hole it out. As I say if it is a genuine gimme, not a very generous one. Then people should be able to hole it anyway (otherwise it shouldn't be a gimme) it won't take long to hole a gimme length putt. Again it's just about getting into the habit
		
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The trouble is that a lot of the guys and I have bad backs and not having to bend down to retrieve the ball for the sake of a 6 -10 inch putt is important to us.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			The trouble is that a lot of the guys and I have bad backs and not having to bend down to retrieve the ball for the sake of a 6 -10 inch putt is important to us.
		
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My Dad ha s a thing on the end of his putter which picks the ball out of the hole. Of course it stops seniors from effectively anchoring the putter so it's not for everyone


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			My Dad ha s a thing on the end of his putter which picks the ball out of the hole. Of course it stops seniors from effectively anchoring the putter so it's not for everyone 

Click to expand...

The trouble with those things is that a lot of players take no care of the hole and can often be seen resting the shaft on the side of the hole damaging it. There is one guy in our group whom I have had several goes at about doing it. " No I don't often comes back as the reply". We play pretty late in the morning and the cause of the damage to the hole is very obvious.

(mind you I do have one myself)


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			The trouble with those things is that a lot of players take no care of the hole and can often be seen resting the shaft on the side of the hole damaging it. There is one guy in our group whom I have had several goes at about doing it. " No I don't often comes back as the reply". We play pretty late in the morning and the cause of the damage to the hole is very obvious.

(mind you I do have one myself)
		
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I think if people want to be thoughtless and not take care of the course (not repairing pitch marks, repairing the teeing area or replacing divots) they will do. It helps my old man out though and I've never seen him be anything but careful with it. 

I think the point with all of this is that if your handicap is at least relatively stable it won't change all that much. At the moment all but Cat 1 can choose whether or not a social round is a 'supplementary' and it looks like that won't change at all. If you are rapidly improving or going the other way a system similar to that in the US has to be a better way to go. 

Re the computer in the clubhouse going down, those without a computer or smartphone have to be in the minority now - in the US you input the scores yourself as you do here........ but you do it online through a computer or phone app rather than having to do it in the clubhouse.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Special treatment of Tournament scores is not continued.
		
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Just to be clear, I can't understand the idea that Special treatment of Tournament scores will not be continued in the US yet the implication from an earlier post is that the R&A are considering only competition scores being included here where currently Supplementary scores are allowed for all but Cat 1. Just makes very little sense if the goal is to make handicaps around the world be directly comparable.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			The slope does not tell you how difficult a course is.

The Course Rating does that. 

The slope tells you the *relative* difficulty of *that particular set of tees on that particular course* for a model scratch player and a handicap player. The model handicap player used as the basis is a so called 'bogey' play of about 20 handicap
		
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I take your point but given the vast majority of club golfers are a lot closer to a "handicap player" than a "scratch player", the slope rating will have a good deal more relevance as to how they perceive the difficulty of a course.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			Just to be clear, I can't understand the idea that Special treatment of Tournament scores will not be continued in the US yet the implication from an earlier post is that the R&A are considering only competition scores being included here where currently Supplementary scores are allowed for all but Cat 1. Just makes very little sense if the goal is to make handicaps around the world be directly comparable.
		
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You seem to have picked up odds and ends. The implication you have made isn't the case - competition rounds plus supplementals.
The US currently have an extremely loose approach to social scores, and it made sense to give an increased weighting to competition scores. Under the new scheme they are going to be tightening up on the scores included, and the relevance of a competition weighting obviously reduces.

The primary nature of the comparability is the ability to compete anywhere with your handicap index and simply plugging it to the competition course index data; its robustness, or accuracy, will always depend on elements outwwith control (selective play  and even simple underachievment in card conditions). You can argue all you want about whether a handicap index will be more accurate if only proper competition scores are included or if you use every score and reduce the quality (as per the existing USGA approach) ie quality v quantity - there's no right answer!


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## the_coach (Feb 21, 2018)

*World Handicap System Home* *FAQs*

The way golfers around the world will calculate their handicaps is set to be transformed by a new system developed by the USGA and The R&A, with key features designed to provide all golfers with a consistent measure of playing ability.
The new World Handicap System, to be implemented in 2020, follows an extensive review of systems administered by six existing handicapping authorities: Golf Australia, the Council of National Golf Unions (CONGU) in Great Britain and Ireland, the European Golf Association (EGA), the South African Golf Association (SAGA), the Argentine Golf Association (AAG) and the USGA.

The new system will feature the following: 

â€¢ Flexibility in formats of play, allowing both competitive and recreational rounds to count for handicap purposes and ensuring that a golferâ€™s handicap is more reflective of potential ability

â€¢ A minimal number of scores needed to obtain a new handicap; a recommendation that the number of scores needed to obtain a new handicap be 54 holes from any combination of 18-hole and 9-hole rounds, but with some discretion available for national or regional associations to set a different minimum within their own jurisdiction

â€¢ A consistent handicap that is portable from course to course and country to country through worldwide use of the USGA Course and Slope Rating System, already successfully used in more than 80 countries

â€¢ An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and factoring in memory of demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control

â€¢ A calculation that considers the impact that abnormal course and weather conditions might have on a playerâ€™s performance each day  

â€¢ Daily handicap revisions, taking account of the course and weather conditions calculation

â€¢ A limit of Net Double Bogey on the maximum hole score (for handicapping purposes only)

â€¢ A maximum handicap limit of 54.0, regardless of gender, to encourage more golfers to measure and track their performance to increase their enjoyment of the game

Quantitative research was conducted in 15 countries around the world, through which 76 percent of the 52,000 respondents voiced their support for a World Handicap System, 22 percent were willing to consider its benefits, and only 2 percent were opposed. This was followed by a series of focus groups, in which more than 300 golf administrators and golfers from regions around the world offered extensive feedback on the features of the proposed new system.

This feedback has helped shape the WHS, which has been developed by the USGA and The R&A with support from each existing handicapping authority as well as the Japan Golf Association and Golf Canada.

*Mike Davis, CEO of the USGA,* commented, â€œFor some time, weâ€™ve heard golfers say, â€˜Iâ€™m not good enough to have a handicap,â€™ or â€˜I donâ€™t play enough to have a handicap.â€™ We want to make the right decisions now to encourage a more welcoming and social game. Weâ€™re excited to be taking another important step â€“ along with modernizing golfâ€™s Rules â€“ to provide a pathway into the sport, making golf easier to understand and more approachable and enjoyable for everyone to play.â€

*Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive of The R&A,* said, â€œWe are working with our partners and national associations to make golf more modern, more accessible and more enjoyable as a sport and the new World Handicap System represents a huge opportunity in this regard. 

â€œWe want to make it more attractive to golfers to obtain a handicap and strip away some of the complexity and variation which can be off-putting for newcomers. Having a handicap, which is easier to understand and is truly portable around the world, can make golf much more enjoyable and is one of the unique selling points of our sport.â€

The tenets of the new system focus on three main objectives: to encourage as many golfers as possible to obtain and maintain a handicap; to enable golfers of differing abilities, genders and nationalities to transport their handicap to any course globally and compete on a fair basis; and to indicate with sufficient accuracy the score a golfer is reasonably capable of achieving on any course around the world, playing under normal conditions.

Given worldwide alignment towards a single system, all parties will now embark on a two-year transition period targeting implementation in 2020.  When adopted, the World Handicap System will be governed by the USGA and The R&A and administered by national and regional associations around the world, with safeguards included to ensure consistency as well as adaptability to differing golf cultures.

The existing six handicapping authorities represent approximately 15 million golfers in 80 countries who currently maintain a golf handicap.

The announcement is the latest step in a multi-year collaboration between The USGA and The R&A, as well as national and regional golf associations around the world to introduce one set of Rules of Handicapping, aimed to support modernizing, growing and improving accessibility of the sport.
As an extension of their support of the Rules of Golf worldwide, Rolex has made a commitment to support the USGAâ€™s and The R&A's efforts to implement a World Handicap System. The Swiss watchmakerâ€™s contribution to excellence in golf is based on a rich heritage stretching back more than 50 years, forged through pivotal partnerships at every level of the game, from the sportâ€™s leading professional and amateur competitions and organizations, to players at the pinnacle of their sport worldwide.
To provide feedback to the USGA on the new World Handicap System, email us at whsfeedback@usga.org?subject=World%20Handicap%20System%20Feedback, or see usga.org/whs. Golfers are encouraged to follow and join in the conversation on social media by using #GolfWHS2020.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			You seem to have picked up odds and ends. The implication you have made isn't the case - competition rounds plus supplementals.
The US currently have an extremely loose approach to social scores, and it made sense to give an increased weighting to competition scores. Under the new scheme they are going to be tightening up on the scores included, and the relevance of a competition weighting obviously reduces.

The primary nature of the comparability is the ability to compete anywhere with your handicap index and simply plugging it to the competition course index data; its robustness, or accuracy, will always depend on elements outwwith control (selective play  and even simple underachievment in card conditions). You can argue all you want about whether a handicap index will be more accurate if only proper competition scores are included or if you use every score and reduce the quality (as per the existing USGA approach) ie quality v quantity - there's no right answer!
		
Click to expand...

The odds and ends I picked up on was rulesfan sayin:

"That will be at the discretion of the relevant national handicapping authority.

The premise was/is that provision would be made for 'traditional ways'.

So 'all scores' or 'comp only' or a mixture would be available."

I read that to mean that it's a viable option for a national handicapping authority to choose option 2 ie 'comp only' rounds will count. As it's a joint venture by the USGA and R&A and there's no way on earth the USGA would consider only comp rounds counting I made the assumption the R&A must be considering this. Not the case? Why would it be an option?

I agree that the US method of being allowed to enter social rounds and in the past no marker or playing partner was required and the 'most likely score' could be inputted if the hole was not completed left a lot of room for vanity capping (like acres!) but if you're going to have a global system it should be a global system. Put in restrictions on rounds to be counted in one country that aren't there in the other and you automatically make the system no longer reflect exactly the same ability on both sides of the Pond which is one of the stated aims of the change.
​


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## rosecott (Feb 21, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			The trouble is that a lot of the guys and I have bad backs and not having to bend down to retrieve the ball for the sake of a 6 -10 inch putt is important to us.
		
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I thought it was compulsory for Seniors to have a ball picker-up thingy on the end of the putter - and two tees tied together with cord.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Other than within the Course Rating system and how the playing handicap derives from it, no.
		
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So separate male/female course ratings and some way to convert handicaps for mixed comps? i.e. same as now but using slope rather than SSS?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			The odds and ends I picked up on was rulesfan sayin:

"That will be at the discretion of the relevant national handicapping authority.

The premise was/is that provision would be made for 'traditional ways'.

So 'all scores' or 'comp only' or a mixture would be available."

I read that to mean that it's a viable option for a national handicapping authority to choose option 2 ie 'comp only' rounds will count. As it's a joint venture by the USGA and R&A and there's no way on earth the USGA would consider only comp rounds counting I made the assumption the R&A must be considering this. Not the case? Why would it be an option?

I agree that the US method of being allowed to enter social rounds and in the past no marker or playing partner was required and the 'most likely score' could be inputted if the hole was not completed left a lot of room for vanity capping (like acres!) but if you're going to have a global system it should be a global system. Put in restrictions on rounds to be counted in one country that aren't there in the other and you automatically make the system no longer reflect exactly the same ability on both sides of the Pond which is one of the stated aims of the change.
​

Click to expand...

OK, having ploughed back through the various responses to specific questions etc etc I can see where you are coming from; however in another, non responsive  post he stated "Just a reminder to those who haven't registered it yet. Social score entry will not be compulsory. The process will be virtually the same as the CONGU supplementary scores and it will be optional
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?96212-World-Handicap-System/page13#pi2s2Z2th6QE64Ki.99" which would seem to remove the option you referenced (as does the high level marketing blurb).

I don't see handicaps reflecting exactly the same ability both sides of the pond as a stated aim anywhere - anyone who understands handicapping (and you clearly do) will realise you can't guarantee it across 2 clubs (Which is why at elite level there has always been a higher focus by those being judgemental on scores away from home).

The precise detail of how each authority will sell this will come out in due course; but given that they will all wish to highlight a no change position it will obviously be a little muddled for a couple of years and subsequent tweaking will also be inevitable.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			OK, having ploughed back through the various responses to specific questions etc etc I can see where you are coming from; however in another, non responsive  post he stated "Just a reminder to those who haven't registered it yet. Social score entry will not be compulsory. The process will be virtually the same as the CONGU supplementary scores and it will be optional
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?96212-World-Handicap-System/page13#pi2s2Z2th6QE64Ki.99" which would seem to remove the option you referenced (as does the high level marketing blurb).

I don't see handicaps reflecting exactly the same ability both sides of the pond as a stated aim anywhere - anyone who understands handicapping (and you clearly do) will realise you can't guarantee it across 2 clubs (Which is why at elite level there has always been a higher focus by those being judgemental on scores away from home).

The precise detail of how each authority will sell this will come out in due course; but given that they will all wish to highlight a no change position it will obviously be a little muddled for a couple of years and subsequent tweaking will also be inevitable.
		
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Maybe it was just in there as a 'not really much of a change' option to quiet the masses. Truth is pre-declared 'social' scores being able to be inputted for handicap is a no change position for us, we just call them supplementary rounds......... well, all except Cat 1, and yet that seems to be what most are focusing on. The bigger change is the fact we are moving to a moving average (best 8 of 20) system from a system where each individual round effects your current handicap up or down, but that hardly seems to bother anyone. 

Regarding the 'stated aim' of adopting a unified global system where the handicap should exactly reflect the same ability both sides of the Pond, I was just going by what the chap from the R&A said  "The tenets of the new system focus on three main objectives............ to enable golfers of differing abilities, genders and nationalities to transport their handicap to any course globally and compete on a fair basis." Compete on a fair basis says to me the handicap should be an accurate measure of ability when you go to another country. Is this a realistic aim? A moot point perhaps, but it is a stated aim 

I just wish we had a handicap system that did what it was supposed to do - reflect your current scoring potential today. For argument sake if we accept I'm a 5 capper playing to about scratch, and that I play 10 qualifiers a year which is not unreasonable, it'll take two and half years before our system will reflect that if I shoot scratch rounds every single comp I enter. Does our system do what it's supposed to do? In my case, no. Guys I tend to play against we only play off scratch anyway (they don't have handicaps), but a handicap becomes meaningless if it's tied to how good you were 2 years ago. For all sorts of reasons that's no longer the case for lots of people.


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			I just wish we had a handicap system that did what it was supposed to do - reflect your current scoring potential today. For argument sake if we accept I'm a 5 capper playing to about scratch, and that I play 10 qualifiers a year which is not unreasonable, it'll take two and half years before our system will reflect that if I shoot scratch rounds every single comp I enter. Does our system do what it's supposed to do? In my case, no. Guys I tend to play against we only play off scratch anyway (they don't have handicaps), but a handicap becomes meaningless if it's tied to how good you were 2 years ago. For all sorts of reasons that's no longer the case for lots of people.


Click to expand...

Eh? am i missing something here. if you are off 5 and are reg playing to scratch you will be getting cut every time you do unless the SSS is 5 below par that is.


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## jusme (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Eh? am i missing something here. if you are off 5 and are reg playing to scratch you will be getting cut every time you do unless the SSS is 5 below par that is.
		
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I think he's referring to a concern the changes leave with me. Best 8 of 20 scores. If you only submit 10 scores a year then it will take 2 years to make the changes. i doubt they will work like this, but he's not saying he plays to scratch now of a 5 cap.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Eh? am i missing something here. if you are off 5 and are reg playing to scratch you will be getting cut every time you do unless the SSS is 5 below par that is.
		
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No, you're not missing anything. I hit a 5 handicap in 2 years from initial handicap having had to give up Rugby due to injury and sort of found I had a talent for golf. I'm actually a 5.0 handicap but having put in some work over last autumn and winter (I have an indoor swing studio and launch monitor which Bobmac has used) my last 50 odd rounds say I'm playing to about scratch. I'm Cat 1 so can't put in supplementary cards and in comps every shot I play below handicap drops me 0.1 of a shot. So if I play to scratch next time out I'll be a 4.5. then a 4.1 . Now I just drop 0.4 for a scratch round - 3.7, 3.3 - now it's 0.3 - 3.0, 2.7, 2.4 - now 0.2 - 2.2, 2.2, 2.0, 1.8, 1.6, 1.4 - now 0.1 cut for each scratch round - 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0.

If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

jusme said:



			I think he's referring to a concern the changes leave with me. Best 8 of 20 scores. If you only submit 10 scores a year then it will take 2 years to make the changes. i doubt they will work like this, but he's not saying he plays to scratch now of a 5 cap.
		
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I track pretty much all my social rounds (using strokes gained analysis mainly). Best 8 of last 20 rounds were -2, -1, -1, E, E, E, +1, +3. Works out at zero in my book 

(course is par 72, SSS 73, but whites are a little up in the winter so call it SSS 72)

It's not really about me,  the fact is what we have is designed for guys that have been playing years and going up a bit or down a bit. It's not really designed to show current performance.


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			No, you're not missing anything. I hit a 5 handicap in 2 years from initial handicap having had to give up Rugby due to injury and sort of found I had a talent for golf. I'm actually a 5.0 handicap but having put in some work over last autumn and winter (I have an indoor swing studio and launch monitor which Bobmac has used) my last 50 odd rounds say I'm playing to about scratch. I'm Cat 1 so can't put in supplementary cards and in comps every shot I play below handicap drops me 0.1 of a shot. So if I play to scratch next time out I'll be a 4.5. then a 4.1 . Now I just drop 0.4 for a scratch round - 3.7, 3.3 - now it's 0.3 - 3.0, 2.7, 2.4 - now 0.2 - 2.2, 2.2, 2.0, 1.8, 1.6, 1.4 - now 0.1 cut for each scratch round - 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0.

If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.
		
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Thing is, youre criticising a whole system based on a very extreme example. Im not the systems biggest fan but since the introduction of ESRs most handicaps catch up pretty quickly, its only the rare example of someone who improves very quickly once a cat 1 that doesnt, and there are very few of them around (and most of them soon are more concerned with scratch comps anyway).

If youre that concerned about your handicap and want to get it down, play a handful of comps, prove it should be much lower, then write a letter to your club and/or county, if youre genuinely off that wrong a handicap they should reassess it

Dont forget, every one else that low got there based on the same system!


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

fundy said:



			Thing is, youre criticising a whole system based on a very extreme example. Im not the systems biggest fan but since the introduction of ESRs most handicaps catch up pretty quickly, its only the rare example of someone who improves very quickly once a cat 1 that doesnt, and there are very few of them around (and most of them soon are more concerned with scratch comps anyway).

If youre that concerned about your handicap and want to get it down, play a handful of comps, prove it should be much lower, then write a letter to your club and/or county, if youre genuinely off that wrong a handicap they should reassess it

Dont forget, every one else that low got there based on the same system!
		
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Everyone else that low generally got there having played the game for a while. I didn't - my initial handicap was just before I was 40 because I played different sports to that point.

And you're right I'm not a normal case but why should you have to 'put in the time' in order for your handicap to reflect ability? What is handicap supposed to show - how long you've played the game or how good you are? Our current system has a 'how long you've played the game' element, the new system will only care how good you are now. I'm not saying our current system is terrible (though it doesn't particularly work for me), just that the new system should better reflect current ability and will therefore be better. 

And yes, I'm only interested in scratch comps. But some of those I'm aiming at have a 2 handicap max. Not a snag but will take me a while before I'm allowed to play in them.


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## DRW (Feb 21, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			Change of subject a bit, but just seen you're form the Highlands.

Have you played Aberfoyle? I was in the highlands last year near Callendar and kept driving past it. Didn't have my clubs with me so couldn't play but it looked like a beautiful course with some cracking views.
		
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I played it on holiday when at the ex-trossach hotel in August 2-3 years ago. Was very very wet in august and an honesty box and for instance we lost 2 balls in the fairway on the 18th due to the elevated tee and wet fairway iirc(calendar golf club was close due to water btw).

Certainly a fun course, bit quirky but I like quirky and was quite a lot of fun to play(loved one of the pars 4, driveable one if you went over the trees).


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			Just to be clear, I can't understand the idea that Special treatment of Tournament scores will not be continued in the US yet the implication from an earlier post is that the R&A are considering only competition scores being included here where currently Supplementary scores are allowed for all but Cat 1. Just makes very little sense if the goal is to make handicaps around the world be directly comparable.
		
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What I meant by 'special treatment' was that currently under USGA tournament scores have a higher value and remain in the counting scores longer that non tournament scores. Note that not all competitions are designated as 'Tournaments'.
It's in the USGA handicap manual but I must warn you it is very complicated and is never (or rarely) done manually.

_A "tournament score" (T-Score) is a score made in a competition organized and conducted by the Committee in charge of the competition. The competition must identify a winner(s) based on a stipulated round(s), and must be played under the Rules of Golf.
The Committee in charge of the competition must announce in advance whether the score is to be designated as a Tournament Score. Not all club competitions qualify to be posted as Tournament Scores. For example, club events that are routine events such as daily, weekly, or monthly play days should not be designated as Tournament Scores_.
_
T  hey would include eg Club Championships, Board comps perhaps, County and National level comps_


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.
		
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That's why (competent) handicap committees will still be required.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			So separate male/female course ratings and some way to convert handicaps for mixed comps? i.e. same as now but using slope rather than SSS?
		
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Yes.


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## Nosevi (Feb 21, 2018)

rulefan said:



			What I meant by 'special treatment' was that currently under USGA tournament scores have a higher value and remain in the counting scores longer that non tournament scores. Note that not all competitions are designated as 'Tournaments'.
It's in the USGA handicap manual but I must warn you it is very complicated and is never (or rarely) done manually.
		
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Ok, so tournament scores will be counted the same as social scores in the US....... and their social scores will be counted the same as Supplementary sores here (ie must be pre-declared?). And thereâ€™ll be no Cat 1,2, 3 etc and so no restriction on anyone entering as many Supplementary scores as they see fit?

Is that about the size of it?


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

fundy said:



			Thing is, youre criticising a whole system based on a very extreme example. Im not the systems biggest fan but since the introduction of ESRs most handicaps catch up pretty quickly, its only the rare example of someone who improves very quickly once a cat 1 that doesnt, and there are very few of them around (and most of them soon are more concerned with scratch comps anyway).

If youre that concerned about your handicap and want to get it down, play a handful of comps, prove it should be much lower, then write a letter to your club and/or county, if youre genuinely off that wrong a handicap they should reassess it

Dont forget, every one else that low got there based on the same system!
		
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Just to be clear I'm not totally criticising the current system but others are dubious about the system set to come in which merely shows your potential scoring ability now ............ which is surely what a handicap is supposed to do. 

As I said, for those later on in years and whose ability may be quickly deserting them the current system often doesn't do that. Having an arbitrary 28 maximum handicap for men (although that has just changed), basically saying unless you're that good you have no place in competitions, seems pretty non-inclusive coming into the sport as an 'outsider'. My situation is a little unusual but it demonstrates that if you get to Cat 1 and are improving when you do, the fact that you can't put in supplementary scores, the fact the ESR can't be applied to you, these to me say a low handicap is treated as a 'badge of honour' - something you need to grind down to over the years rather than merely a reflection of your current scoring potential. 

I suppose I don't see any downside in the system set to come in (from what I understand of it). I don't think the course will be littered with people suddenly deciding they'll put in every round as a supplementary score just because the maths has changed. I don't think having to tap in 2 footers will dramatically slow up play. I don't think a system that merely exactly reflects your current scoring potential is a bad thing. But we'll see


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			No, you're not missing anything. I hit a 5 handicap in 2 years from initial handicap having had to give up Rugby due to injury and sort of found I had a talent for golf. I'm actually a 5.0 handicap but having put in some work over last autumn and winter (I have an indoor swing studio and launch monitor which Bobmac has used) my last 50 odd rounds say I'm playing to about scratch. I'm Cat 1 so can't put in supplementary cards and in comps every shot I play below handicap drops me 0.1 of a shot. So if I play to scratch next time out I'll be a 4.5. then a 4.1 . Now I just drop 0.4 for a scratch round - 3.7, 3.3 - now it's 0.3 - 3.0, 2.7, 2.4 - now 0.2 - 2.2, 2.2, 2.0, 1.8, 1.6, 1.4 - now 0.1 cut for each scratch round - 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0.

If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.
		
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plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

 if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps


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## jim8flog (Feb 22, 2018)

Although I have not actually worked out any figures, one of the things I like is that it would appear that the player getting worse with age etc will get to their true handicap a lot quicker.

No more handicap committee members who cannot see the tree in the woods and go by reputation rather than the actual scores in front of them.


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

 if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps
		
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Doesnâ€™t matter much, was just using myself as a cat 1 as an example, but I often canâ€™t get to the course on a weekend, but practice mainly on week days. Not everyone works a Monday to Friday job with weekends when the vast majority of comps are on free. 

I suppose my comments were just based on the fact I personally think the new system will cater for all far better.


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			Although I have not actually worked out any figures, one of the things I like is that it would appear that the player getting worse with age etc will get to their true handicap a lot quicker.

No more handicap committee members who cannot see the tree in the woods and go by reputation rather than the actual scores in front of them.
		
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+1 Totally agree


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2018)

Itâ€™s quite simple how cat 1 get to scratch - they play in lots of Opens where the standard scratches allow the guys to come down a lot quicker than just playing in Home comps


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## pinberry (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps
		
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If you are a junior, you could do that. I'm 34, have a job and a family. Last year I plated 12 comps and got down from 1.5 to 0.7. I simply don't have the time to play 30 comps a year. I practice at evenings, indoor and play the seldom 9 holes at evenings in summer. Yet, I'm currently much better than my 0.7 implies. Under the new system I would be playing +1 as the last 12 comps have been that much better.

However, having done a few analysis etc. at the end of the day this new systems will be very similar to what we currently have.


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s quite simple how cat 1 get to scratch - they play in lots of Opens where the standard scratches allow the guys to come down a lot quicker than just playing in Home comps
		
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Best I do that then, if I want my handicap to come down a little quicker. Thanks 

My comments were based on the fact the new system should reflect everyoneâ€™s current ability. Rapidly improving, going the other way, able to play at weekends, not often able to, illness/injury effected........... it really wonâ€™t matter. In theory at least it looks like the new system will just show where everyone is right now and surely that can only be a good thing.


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

pinberry said:



			If you are a junior, you could do that. I'm 34, have a job and a family. Last year I plated 12 comps and got down from 1.5 to 0.7. I simply don't have the time to play 30 comps a year. I practice at evenings, indoor and play the seldom 9 holes at evenings in summer. Yet, I'm currently much better than my 0.7 implies.
		
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Kind of my point only put in a more succinct way. I just think the new system will work much the same for those who the current system works well for yet work better for those it doesn't. Could be wrong but nothing I've read so far makes me think I will be. Time will tell.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			Ok, so tournament scores will be counted the same as social scores in the US....... and their social scores will be counted the same as Supplementary sores here (ie must be pre-declared?). And thereâ€™ll be no Cat 1,2, 3 etc and so no restriction on anyone entering as many Supplementary scores as they see fit?

Is that about the size of it? 

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That's what has been posted!

On your comment on CONGU, it's slight disingenuous to use exactly scr (then bring -2 scores into your average comparison!) but in any event you would go 5.0 4.5 3.1 2.8 2.5 2.2 2.0  ie in 6 rounds you would be off 2.0 at which point I agree that from that point only scoring 2, then 1, under each time will make for slow progress to 0.0 if you don't shoot scores under level.

One thing that will come out of the change is the  bubble at 5 under CONGU - I expect to see an increase of those at 3 and 4 and a reduction of those at 5.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

pinberry said:



			However, having done a few analysis etc. at the end of the day this new systems will be very similar to what we currently have.
		
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I agree, as illustrated by those who have run their own and having run a number of handicap records through. Without knowing the details of the stabilising factor they will include it's impossible to be able to know the impact on improving, or going out, other than to say that they will tend towards the way CONGU calls currently work as well.

All that left then is that we will have handicap index applied to course and slope index for course and tee each time we play to give us a playing handicap for that occassion against par....instead of a handicap and playing against SSS  -  Well people will get used to it eventually!


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## Nosevi (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			That's what has been posted!

On your comment on CONGU, it's slight disingenuous to use exactly scr (then bring -2 scores into your average comparison!) but in any event you would go 5.0 4.5 3.1 2.8 2.5 2.2 2.0  ie in 6 rounds you would be off 2.0 at which point I agree that from that point only scoring 2, then 1, under each time will make for slow progress to 0.0 if you don't shoot scores under level.

One thing that will come out of the change is the  bubble at 5 under CONGU - I expect to see an increase of those at 3 and 4 and a reduction of those at 5.
		
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Ok, perhaps I was overstating the case a little 

I agree with the last comment, simply because of the restrictions currently placed on Cat 1 players that don't apply to others. 

Still think the new system will generally be better at reflecting people's current scoring potential and once people have used it for a while and it becomes the norm most of the fears about slow play etc will be shown to not be an issue.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			Ok, perhaps I was overstating the case a little 

I agree with the last comment, simply because of the restrictions placed on Cat 1 players that don't apply to others. 

Still think the new system will generally be better at reflecting people's current scoring potential and once people have used it for a while and it becomes the norm most of the fears about slow play etc will be shown to not be an issue.
		
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Regarding the last bit, I would hope so as that has always been the fundamental difference between the underlying aspects of the USGA and CONGU systems. The former focusing on form and the latter heavily weighted to proven capability. I can still see strong arguments for both sides, and middle ground is a fudge rather than a compromise to both.


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## ciel-bleu (Feb 22, 2018)

Currently I can't play comps in the UK because I don't possess a CONGU handicap. If this change means I can use my EGA index to enter the odd comp when I'm visiting then that's great!:whoo:


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## Crazyface (Feb 22, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Not sure why you think that when this system has been in place in the USA for years.
		
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Sure it has, but after reading some of the posts of here it all conkers. Players only putting cards in when it suits them. Sure it works!!!


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2018)

ciel-bleu said:



			Currently I can't play comps in the UK because I don't possess a CONGU handicap. If this change means I can use my EGA index to enter the odd comp when I'm visiting then that's great!:whoo:
		
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this is interesting, so will people who are not members of Clubs in the UK be able to play Qual comps?

couple of guys i know who have US handicaps currently have a Congu one as well, but they are members of UK clubs, but what if you aren't?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			this is interesting, so will people who are not members of Clubs in the UK be able to play Qual comps?

couple of guys i know who have US handicaps currently have a Congu one as well, but they are members of UK clubs, but what if you aren't?
		
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Start by making the full shift - Q comps won't exist!  Fundamentally by entering any competition that meets whatever new definition as suitable you will be signing up to a supplemental card - which will be played against the course and tee index and entered into your 'international handicap record'.
Entry will be up  to the organisers,  as currently, as will the distribution of any awards or prizes.
UK Club membership would be one route to having a 'current' handicap index; the concept of current is represented by (c) within CONGU and doesnt appear to have been fully specified going forwards (from what's been presented) and is no doubt in the pile of tba (along with the scope for a non club based handicap authority along the lines of the Metropolitan associations in the US - but I don't expect that in the UK on day one!

Caveat - all of this is based on whats in the public domain and a process of adding 2+2; this latter has been proven wrong before!  Inwould add that in the example youngive they would (should) only have one home handicap authority going forward - world wide. Which may bring some challenges for linking the various record keeping systems internationally given the problems of maintaining CDH!


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Start by making the full shift - Q comps won't exist!  Fundamentally by entering any competition that meets whatever new definition as suitable you will be signing up to a supplemental card - which will be played against the course and tee index and entered into your 'international handicap record'.
Entry will be up  to the organisers,  as currently, as will the distribution of any awards or prizes.
UK Club membership would be one route to having a 'current' handicap index; the concept of current is represented by (c) within CONGU and doesnt appear to have been fully specified going forwards (from what's been presented) and is no doubt in the pile of tba (along with the scope for a non club based handicap authority along the lines of the Metropolitan associations in the US - but I don't expect that in the UK on day one!

Caveat - all of this is based on whats in the public domain and a process of adding 2+2; this latter has been proven wrong before!  Inwould add that in the example youngive they would (should) only have one home handicap authority going forward - world wide. Which may bring some challenges for linking the various record keeping systems internationally given the problems of maintaining CDH!
		
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so with current info you still would not be able to turn up at a club in another country and play just like another member?


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			so with current info you still would not be able to turn up at a club in another country and play just like another member?
		
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You should be able to turn up and play at any event that you have met the entry criteria set by the organisers....so if you club runs all it's comps as opens; but they may not wish to do that?

Put another way,  someone from Paris or California should be able to play as easily as someone from Kent.


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## patricks148 (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			You should be able to turn up and play at any event that you have met the entry criteria set by the organisers....so if you club runs all it's comps as opens; but they may not wish to do that?

Put another way,  someone from Paris or California should be able to play as easily as someone from Kent.
		
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We are slope rated so i suppose they could have taken scores back the there home clubs on return.

I will have to ask our handicap sec what happens at the moment as we get guys play from overseas in the 4 day open we have. the first two rounds of these are qualifying. so wonder if they currently get adjusted?


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## jim8flog (Feb 22, 2018)

Nosevi said:



			Ok, perhaps I was overstating the case a little 

I agree with the last comment, simply because of the restrictions currently placed on Cat 1 players that don't apply to others. 

Still think the new system will generally be better at reflecting people's current scoring potential and once people have used it for a while and it becomes the norm most of the fears about slow play etc will be shown to not be an issue.
		
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 If I am understanding the new system correctly there will be no need for categories. What they are used for is to apply different differentials  for downward adjustments and under the new system I expect that will disappear.


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## jim8flog (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			the concept of current is represented by (c) within CONGU and doesnt appear to have been fully specified going forwards

QUOTE]

I too was wondering that. I am wondering if the new system will require players to have submitted at least 8 cards for handicap purposes to have competition status.
		
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## rulefan (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			we will have handicap index applied to course and slope index for course and tee each time we play to give us a playing handicap for that occassion against* par.*..
		
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Did you mean the Course Rating? That's how you will know how well you played.


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## rulefan (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			We are slope rated so i suppose they could have taken scores back the there home clubs on return.

I will have to ask our handicap sec what happens at the moment as we get guys play from overseas in the 4 day open we have. the first two rounds of these are qualifying. so wonder if they currently get adjusted?
		
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Many, if not all, USGA visitors to Scotland, Ireland and continental Europe, where USGA slope is already universal, do take their scores home. This is real portability. 
Unlike not so long ago when players returning from Spain and Portugal with record low scores were demanding multiple shot handicap reductions. The fact that they had no idea about CR but were using par as the measure, didn't cross their minds.


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## rulefan (Feb 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			We are slope rated so i suppose they could have taken scores back the there home clubs on return.

I will have to ask our handicap sec what happens at the moment as we get guys play from overseas in the 4 day open we have. the first two rounds of these are qualifying. so wonder if they currently get adjusted?
		
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Presumably the competition is played off scratch.

I cant see a provision for overseas scores to be returned in European countries in the EGA book


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## rulefan (Feb 22, 2018)

jim8flog said:





duncan mackie said:



			the concept of current is represented by (c) within CONGU and doesnt appear to have been fully specified going forwards

QUOTE]

I too was wondering that. I am wondering if the new system will require players to have submitted at least 8 cards for handicap purposes to have competition status.
		
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Competition status has not been mentioned.
I suspect it will disappear as the concept is not in the EGA system either
		
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## Grant85 (Feb 22, 2018)

To slightly hijack this thread on handicaps, perhaps someone can answer me this. 

I have not not had a handicap since I was last a GC member in September 2016. 

If if I was to join somewhere else do you think I would start on the same handicap I had. Or they would ask me to put in 3cards and work the new handicap out on that. 
Or they would still want 3cards but would still take my previous handicap into account?

i guess the secretary at wherever I joined would have discretion, but does anyone know what the likely position would be?


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## fundy (Feb 22, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			To slightly hijack this thread on handicaps, perhaps someone can answer me this. 

I have not not had a handicap since I was last a GC member in September 2016. 

If if I was to join somewhere else do you think I would start on the same handicap I had. Or they would ask me to put in 3cards and work the new handicap out on that. 
Or they would still want 3cards but would still take my previous handicap into account?

i guess the secretary at wherever I joined would have discretion, but does anyone know what the likely position would be?
		
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they will want 3 cards but take your previous handicap into account

ill be in the same boat if i havent joined somewhere new by may


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			To slightly hijack this thread on handicaps, perhaps someone can answer me this. 

I have not not had a handicap since I was last a GC member in September 2016. 

If if I was to join somewhere else do you think I would start on the same handicap I had. Or they would ask me to put in 3cards and work the new handicap out on that. 
Or they would still want 3cards but would still take my previous handicap into account?

i guess the secretary at wherever I joined would have discretion, but does anyone know what the likely position would be?
		
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No  real discretion, other than the way in which your previous handicap is taken into account relative to the 3 cards put in. Ie - thats the requirement but without a defined process as to what that means in practice!


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Did you mean the Course Rating? That's how you will know how well you played.
		
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No, I meant par - but I am probably wrong.

In thought that the course rating was a function of the difficulty of shooting par and reflected in the slope index used to calculate the course handicap to be  played from (and measured to par).

If you are playing against the course rating (as we currently do) why do you need to adjust the handicap as well?


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## rulefan (Feb 22, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			No, I meant par - but I am probably wrong.

In thought that the course rating was a function of the difficulty of shooting par and reflected in the slope index used to calculate the course handicap to be  played from (and measured to par).

If you are playing against the course rating (as we currently do) why do you need to adjust the handicap as well?
		
Click to expand...

His base handicap index reflects the underlying scoring ability of the player. This must be based on the difficulty (for him) of the courses he has played.
Par is not a measure of difficulty. The Course Rating is exactly that but for a scratch player. However, because of the position and nature of obstacles on the course, a high handicap player (say a 20 capper called a bogey player) may or may not encounter the same or different obstacles. This may make the particular course *relatively* more or less difficult. So the course is rated for this player. A Course is a particular set of tees on a particular piece of land (eg yellow or white etc) 
The Slope is a gradient on a graph reflecting this *relative* difficulty for this course. All courses will have their own Course Rating, Bogey Rating and Slope. In very simple terms, a player looks at a chart at the course. Selects the tees he is to play and finds his handicap index and is given a number which reflect the position on the slope graph. Adding that number to his index gives him his playing handicap.

The measure of his achievement is how his net score compares with the Course Rating.

I hope you haven't felt I was talking down to you but it is the best way I could explain it. But I can point you to a more technical explanation if you really want me to.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 23, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			According to the USPGA rules, for a card to count you have to play at least 7 holes within the laws for a 9 hole submission and 13 holes for an 18 hole submission. So if on some holes you don't hole out according to the USPGA you should record a net par.
*
But if they are genuine gimmes, say within 3 feet, they should be simple putts anyway.* Just get in the habit of holing out
		
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Within 3 feet a gimme!!!! Jeeezo can I play in your 4 ball. I've missed numerous times from within 3 feet and know golfers I wouldn't give a 1 foot putt too if there was any sort of pressure.


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

Not really got time to read through every post on this thread, but with being from the UK and now playing under the USGA system, I love it. Sandbaggers really aren't that much of a problem, because clubs have a great way of combating it. When you enter a competition the round is entered automatically into the handicapping system to stop people from playing at an away club cleaning up but never actually declaring the round so not seeing a handicap reduction, not sure if that is still a problem in the UK but I know it was. 

The other thing that happens is that you are made to play off the lowest handicap you have held in the last 12 months. So go out and get yourself a higher handicap by putting in some dodgy rounds, guess what you may have up from 10 to 15, but your still gonna be playing off 10.


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			The other thing that happens is that you are made to play off the lowest handicap you have held in the last 12 months. So go out and get yourself a higher handicap by putting in some dodgy rounds, guess what you may have up from 10 to 15, but your still gonna be playing off 10.
		
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How do they manage that one,  so a current handicap is worthless?


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## MadAdey (Feb 23, 2018)

chrisd said:



			How do they manage that one,  so a current handicap is worthless?
		
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No not at all. Let's be honest here, who couldn't play to the lowest handicap they have held in the last 12 months? If you've played to that level in the last 12 months then that is what you should be playing off, not a handicap that you sandbagged up a few shots. If you played well enough to say have a 10 handicap that isn't just calculated from a single round, but the average of your best cards over 20 rounds.


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2018)

1) This probably won't continue into the WHS*.
*2) Tournaments are only elite competitions aimed at (in CONGU terms) Club gross championship, county or national level* 


Tournament Scores *
*Q.* What is the purpose of the "Tournament Score " procedure? 
*A.* To identify players who excel in competition well beyond their current USGA Handicap Indexes. 

*Q.* How should a player post a tournament score? 
*A.* The tournament score, when posted, should be identified by a "T." 

*Q.* What is the effect of a tournament score on a player's USGA Handicap Index? 
*A.* A player whose scoring record includes two or more tournament scores that are exceptionally (three or more strokes) lower than his or her USGA Handicap Index will be subject to a reduction in Handicap Index. If your club uses a computation service, the adjustment is probably done automatically. If not, the Handicap Committee must follow the procedure shown in the manual. After a Handicap Index has been reduced, the Committee can further reduce or override the reduction of a Handicap Index. A USGA Handicap Index reduction for exceptional tournament scores is calculated at each handicap revision and may vary from revision to revision based on factors outlined in Section 10-3. 

*Q.* What qualifies as a "Tournament"? 
*A.* The committee in charge of a competition announces before play whether the competition will result in a "tournament score" when posted. Tournament scores are generally reserved for competitions that, in the judgment of the committee, are significant in the traditions, schedules, formats and membership of the club. _Weekly play days should not be designated as tournament scores_.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 23, 2018)

When I went to one of the focus groups, main priority we left them with was bandits. Theyâ€™ll always be sandbaggers, but to make it a lot harder. 

We was shown a player profile and how they would do it. 
There is something to be put in place but canâ€™t remember what it was. 
You wonâ€™t go up as much as you think you will if you have poor rounds on the bounce though. 

Some computer wizardry and Pythagoras algorithms wonâ€™t allow it based on previous scores.


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## patricks148 (Feb 23, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Presumably the competition is played off scratch.

I cant see a provision for overseas scores to be returned in European countries in the EGA book
		
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no, there is a scratch section, but also handicap. the first two rounds are stoke play to qualify. these are both handicap qualifying for the home based golfers. last time i played one i got a cut in the first round. just wondering what happens to oversea's. if it were the other way we would self adjust to the SSS i f they had one (maybe)


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## duncan mackie (Feb 23, 2018)

rulefan said:



			His base handicap index reflects the underlying scoring ability of the player. This must be based on the difficulty (for him) of the courses he has played.
Par is not a measure of difficulty. The Course Rating is exactly that but for a scratch player. However, because of the position and nature of obstacles on the course, a high handicap player (say a 20 capper called a bogey player) may or may not encounter the same or different obstacles. This may make the particular course *relatively* more or less difficult. So the course is rated for this player. A Course is a particular set of tees on a particular piece of land (eg yellow or white etc) 
The Slope is a gradient on a graph reflecting this *relative* difficulty for this course. All courses will have their own Course Rating, Bogey Rating and Slope. In very simple terms, a player looks at a chart at the course. Selects the tees he is to play and finds his handicap index and is given a number which reflect the position on the slope graph. Adding that number to his index gives him his playing handicap.

The measure of his achievement is how his net score compares with the Course Rating.

I hope you haven't felt I was talking down to you but it is the best way I could explain it. But I can point you to a more technical explanation if you really want me to.
		
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Not at all. Well worded thank you.

So, in a nutshell and with examples, a scr golfer will play of scr regardless of the course rating, but a 28 will play of 14 on the easiest course (rated 55) or 38 on a 155 course because of the effect of slope?


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Not at all. Well worded thank you.

So, in a nutshell and with examples, a scr golfer will play of scr regardless of the course rating, but a 28 will play of 14 on the easiest course (rated 55) or 38 on a 155 course because of the effect of slope?
		
Click to expand...

I think you have mixed up Course Rating and Slope.
Course Rating is the direct equivalent of SSS in CONGU using the USGA rating method.

Slope Ratings range from 55 to 155, with the average being 113. 

When you play a course with a Slope Rating higher than 113, your Course Handicap will be higher than your USGA Handicap Index. When you play a course with a Slope Rating lower than 113, your Course Handicap will be lower than your Handicap Index.

The chart I mentioned is in fact a fast path to the following calculation shown in a Course Handicap Table 
*Handicap Index (decimal) x Slope/113 = Course Handicap (Rounded conventionally)*

To convert a _Handicap Index_ to a _Course Handicap_, a player takes the _Handicap Index_ to a _Course Handicap Table_ to find the corresponding _Course Handicap_. Each set of rated tees will have a different _Course Handicap Table_ for men and women based on its _Slope Rating._


The following is a table for course with a slope of 140

[TABLE="width: 400, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Handicap Index[/TD]
[TD]Course Handicap[/TD]
[TD]Handicap Index[/TD]
[TD]Course Handicap[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+3.6 to +2.9[/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]16.6 to 17.3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+2.8 to +2.1[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]17.4 to 18.1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+2.0 to +1.3[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]18.2 to 18.9[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+1.2 to +5[/TD]
[TD]+1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]19.0 to 19.7[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+.4 to.4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]19.8 to 20.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"].5 to 1.2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]1[/TD]
[TD]20.6 to 21.3[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]1.3 to 2.0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]2[/TD]
[TD]21.4 to 22.1[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]2.1 to 2.8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]3[/TD]
[TD]22.2 to 23.0[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]2.9 to 3.6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]4[/TD]
[TD]23.1 to 23.8[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]3.7 to 4.4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]5[/TD]
[TD]23.9 to 24.6[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.5 to 5.2[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]24.7 to 25.4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.3 to 6.0[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]25.5 to 26.2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.1 to 6.8[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]26.3 to 27.0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.9 to 7.6[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]27.1 to 27.8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.7 to 8.4[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]27.9 to 28.6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]8.5 to 9.2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]11[/TD]
[TD]28.7 to 29.4[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]9.3 to 10.0[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]12[/TD]
[TD]29.5 to 30.2[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]10.1 to 10.8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]13[/TD]
[TD]30.3 to 31.0[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]10.9 to 11.7[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]14[/TD]
[TD]31.1 to 31.8[/TD]
[TD]39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]11.8 to 12.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]15[/TD]
[TD]31.9 to 32.6[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12.6 to 13.3[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]32.7 to 33.4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]41[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13.4 to 14.1[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]33.5 to 34.3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]42[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14.2 to 14.9[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]34.4 to 35.1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15.0 to 15.7[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]35.2 to 35.9[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15.8 to 16.5[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]36.0 to 36.4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #dce0ef"]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


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## duncan mackie (Feb 23, 2018)

I think you have mixed up Course Rating and Slope.
Course Rating is the direct equivalent of SSS in CONGU using the USGA rating method.
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ld-Handicap-System/page21#oYoFmOJTTQJmvkWg.99

Sorry - I was overly lax with my wording in that response (rather than my thinking as in the earlier  confused one).

The examples I gave were for handicap index against slope rating (of course/tee combinations)


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## SteveJay (Feb 23, 2018)

the_coach said:



*World Handicap System Home* *FAQs*

â€œWe want to make it more attractive to golfers to obtain a handicap and strip away some of the complexity and variation which can be off-putting for newcomers. Having a handicap, which is easier to understand and is truly portable around the world, can make golf much more enjoyable and is one of the unique selling points of our sport.â€
		
Click to expand...

Jeez, being a relative newcomer to club membership and CONGU handicapping, this thread has confused me totally!
How on earth can this be promoted as being less complex and easier to understand!!!!!


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2018)

SteveJay said:



			Jeez, being a relative newcomer to club membership and CONGU handicapping, this thread has confused me totally!
How on earth can this be promoted as being less complex and easier to understand!!!!! 

Click to expand...

Handicapping is complex full stop.
Comparing them is doubly so.
Just let others do the work for the present and get to grips with the new one as it evolves. You have a great advantage in seeing it built


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## garyinderry (Feb 23, 2018)

Will brand new players be required to play 8 rounds now to gain a handicap?


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Will brand new players be required to play 8 rounds now to gain a handicap?
		
Click to expand...

No. As it says in the press release. 3 x 18 hole rounds.


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## jusme (Feb 24, 2018)

This 8 from 20 interests me as to how it will initially be implemented. If starting from day one say 1st January 2020, will it take 8 rounds or more (say 20) before any handicap changes or will they be looking back at the last 20 rounds in 2019


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 24, 2018)

rulefan said:



			No. As it says in the press release. 3 x 18 hole rounds.
		
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Can you foresee certain players trying to increase their h/cap for an upcoming match or major comp ,board comp.

If caps can rise and fall more than at present this would be a worry.

Especially if social rounds are counted.
Someone off 9.3 could play 36 holes on Friday with his mates and be off 10 (9.5) for his match Saturday morning.

Is there any provision to monitor this?.


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## rulefan (Feb 24, 2018)

jusme said:



			This 8 from 20 interests me as to how it will initially be implemented. If starting from day one say 1st January 2020, will it take 8 rounds or more (say 20) before any handicap changes or will they be looking back at the last 20 rounds in 2019
		
Click to expand...

I gather the US conversion will be different to the UK & Europe. It has not been announced yet but the US will probably either start with the current handicap and recalculate the best 8 average when the next score is returned or do a big bang on day 1 and recalculate the best 8 average.
CONGU (and I guess Europe) will, on day one, trawl back for the last 20 scores in the player's history and calculate a new handicap. They are looking at a formula for those players with less than 20 recorded scores. It's not clear whether they will use the CDH or the clubs' records. But all the CDH data is either in the current view or has been archived. Many clubs have purged 'old' records, particularly if they have changed ISV.


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## rulefan (Feb 24, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can you foresee certain players trying to increase their h/cap for an upcoming match or major comp ,board comp.

If caps can rise and fall more than at present this would be a worry.

Especially if social rounds are counted.
Someone off 9.3 could play 36 holes on Friday with his mates and be off 10 (9.5) for his match Saturday morning.

Is there any provision to monitor this?.
		
Click to expand...

Remember, so called casual rounds will have to be 'attested' to count. Essentially as supplementary scores.
One would expect (hope) that handicap secs/committees will be monitoring non comp scores.

Of course two bad scores are unlikely to have any effect. It is only the best 8 from the last 20 that are averaged. He will no longer get 0.1 for a bad round.


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## Fish (Feb 24, 2018)

I havenâ€™t read all the comments in this thread, but I was invited & involved in a workshop with the PGA & USGA where all areas of consolidating the handicap system was discussed and what was hopefully going to be rolled out. 

Lots of positive comments & negative concerns were aired and the proposed system was still to be tweaked based on our UK workshop findings and workshops that were taking place across world to reach as much of a common acceptance as possible. 

I canâ€™t remember the exact figures but I think we have at least 6 different handicap systems across the world which is confusing when travelling and playing courses both socially and for competitions, so unifying the handicap system is a good change imo, but like many things in the golfing fraternity, change is a dirty word and can be met by the draconian â€˜letâ€™s not change anythingâ€™ brigade, as it doesnâ€™t affect them personally. 

What I liked from the presentation was the fact that your handicap changed over a number (block) of rounds, meaning that you might play crap for the last 4 rounds in your block but your mean average was still good from previous rounds in the block and you could still obtain a cut! 

Iâ€™ve got loads of notes on it all from the workshop and I even featured in the video thatâ€™s being rolled out now ðŸ˜Ž


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## jim8flog (Feb 24, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can you foresee certain players trying to increase their h/cap for an upcoming match or major comp ,board comp.

If caps can rise and fall more than at present this would be a worry.

Especially if social rounds are counted.
Someone off 9.3 could play 36 holes on Friday with his mates and be off 10 (9.5) for his match Saturday morning.

Is there any provision to monitor this?.
		
Click to expand...

That can almost happen with current system anyway.

Interesting point though- will the new system allow two cards on one day?  The current only allows one.


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## Sweep (Feb 24, 2018)

If golf has any problems, the current handicap system isnâ€™t one of them. Now, I will be the first to say that none of us have full details yet and that we should give the new system a chance, however an awful lot of priority, effort and I guess money seems to have been put into fixing something that wasnâ€™t broken, Seemingly so on the very odd occasion two people from places far flung from each other can have a good game of golf. Something that happens now anyway.

No system is perfect. The current systemâ€™s 3 rounds a year to validate an â€œCâ€ prefix was far too few and invited banditry, but other than that it works extremely well. I am not against change but I am failing to see what great advantage this new system will bring.

As far as I can tell, handicaps will fluctuate more rapidly and it will be more difficult to calculate what your handicap will be after each return without the computer telling you. So what happens if the computer is down? Will it still be the playerâ€™s responsibility to calculate and declare their own handicap? What about comps open only to players over or under certain handicaps? Is it best to avoid booking those if you are within a shot or two a couple of months before?

Unless it will be a lot easier to calculate your own rise or fall than it seems, I think the powers that be have missed an important aspect in the case of regular and keen golfers like most of us on here, especially club members. Many such golfers enjoy the challenge of getting their handicap down. Under the current system you easily know what you have do to attain a goal and you know a bad round results in a 0.1 increase. It seems that aspect will be gone.

I am a big fan of the slope system and bringing that in here in the UK is a very positive move IMO. However, will the World Handicap System be dependent on the slope system being in place? The last time I went to a meeting on this there were very few assessors in place and full implementation was years away. If that is still the case, 2020 is fantasy.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 24, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			That can almost happen with current system anyway.

Interesting point though- will the new system allow two cards on one day?  The current only allows one.
		
Click to expand...

36 hole comps seem to go through fine under current...


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2018)

rulefan said:



			One would expect (hope) that handicap secs/committees will be monitoring non comp scores.e
		
Click to expand...

One of the problems of it IMO. Governing bodies seem to think that all clubs have the luxury of a club secretary and someone available all the time to do admin.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If golf has any problems, the current handicap system isnâ€™t one of them. Now, I will be the first to say that none of us have full details yet and that we should give the new system a chance, however an awful lot of priority, effort and I guess money seems to have been put into fixing something that wasnâ€™t broken, Seemingly so on the very odd occasion two people from places far flung from each other can have a good game of golf. Something that happens now anyway.

No system is perfect. The current systemâ€™s 3 rounds a year to validate an â€œCâ€ prefix was far too few and invited banditry, but other than that it works extremely well. I am not against change but I am failing to see what great advantage this new system will bring.

As far as I can tell, handicaps will fluctuate more rapidly and it will be more difficult to calculate what your handicap will be after each return without the computer telling you. So what happens if the computer is down? Will it still be the playerâ€™s responsibility to calculate and declare their own handicap? What about comps open only to players over or under certain handicaps? Is it best to avoid booking those if you are within a shot or two a couple of months before?

Unless it will be a lot easier to calculate your own rise or fall than it seems, I think the powers that be have missed an important aspect in the case of regular and keen golfers like most of us on here, especially club members. Many such golfers enjoy the challenge of getting their handicap down. Under the current system you easily know what you have do to attain a goal and you know a bad round results in a 0.1 increase. It seems that aspect will be gone.

I am a big fan of the slope system and bringing that in here in the UK is a very positive move IMO. However, will the World Handicap System be dependent on the slope system being in place? The last time I went to a meeting on this there were very few assessors in place and full implementation was years away. If that is still the case, 2020 is fantasy.
		
Click to expand...

I asked some of these questions a hundred or so posts ago..not sure I've seen any answers or suggestions for answers....


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## BTatHome (Feb 24, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Unless it will be a lot easier to calculate your own rise or fall than it seems, I think the powers that be have missed an important aspect in the case of regular and keen golfers like most of us on here, especially club members. Many such golfers enjoy the challenge of getting their handicap down. Under the current system you easily know what you have do to attain a goal and you know a bad round results in a 0.1 increase. It seems that aspect will be gone.
		
Click to expand...

The best way to reduce your handicap will be to shoot the best score you can on the day and beat your handicap .... whilst it may not guarantee a reduction in the new system it will give you the best chance .... which is pretty much like the CSS system at the moment too &#128521;


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## BTatHome (Feb 24, 2018)

Imurg said:



			I asked some of these questions a hundred or so posts ago..not sure I've seen any answers or suggestions for answers....
		
Click to expand...

probably as detailed explanations of the system haven't been released, so most of the answers are best guesses until then.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2018)

BTatHome said:



			probably as detailed explanations of the system haven't been released, so most of the answers are best guesses until then.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed
I just hope the powers that be are asking similar questions...


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 24, 2018)

So, very crudely looking at my best 8 from the last 20 competition scores (don't have social scores) it looks like my handicap would be about 1.3. However I had a pretty bad run in the latter half of the year and the 21st and 22nd scores that have just dropped out were good ones so my handicap would have been 0.3 two rounds ago.

Carrying on that trend, the next two scores to drop out are also good ones and if I replace them with the average score I've had since then my handicap would go to 2.4.

So basically in the space of four rounds (which I could easily play in a week in the summer) I could get an extra two shots on my handicap. Not sure someone playing me in a handicap match after that run would be very impressed! 

Interesting though that looking at it this way has my handicap a fair bit lower than at present.


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## USER1999 (Feb 24, 2018)

At pres you can only put in one supplementary a week, max 10 a year. I get this.
Under the new proposal i guess i can put in unlimited casual rounds. 
This sounds like i can influence my h cap quite quickly, either way. 
Not sure about this.


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## rulefan (Feb 24, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			At pres you can only put in one supplementary a week, max 10 a year. I get this.
Under the new proposal i guess i can put in unlimited casual rounds. 
This sounds like i can influence my h cap quite quickly, either way. 
Not sure about this.
		
Click to expand...

*
Changes introduced for 2018*
Supplementary Scores: Relaxation of rules â€“ no restriction on number per year, no restriction on number per week.


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## jim8flog (Feb 25, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			So, very crudely looking at my best 8 from the last 20 competition scores (don't have social scores) it looks like my handicap would be about 1.3. However I had a pretty bad run in the latter half of the year and the 21st and 22nd scores that have just dropped out were good ones so my handicap would have been 0.3 two rounds ago.

Carrying on that trend, the next two scores to drop out are also good ones and if I replace them with the average score I've had since then my handicap would go to 2.4.

So basically in the space of four rounds (which I could easily play in a week in the summer) I could get an extra two shots on my handicap. Not sure someone playing me in a handicap match after that run would be very impressed! 

Interesting though that looking at it this way has my handicap a fair bit lower than at present.
		
Click to expand...

But does this not show the philosophy of the current handicap system at it's best.
â€¢ 

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]reviewing handicaps ........ to ensure that handicaps are reflective of current ability. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2018)

BTatHome said:



			probably as detailed explanations of the system haven't been released, so most of the answers are best guesses until then.
		
Click to expand...

isnâ€™t this the same as the USA system so they should know the answers , or are tweets being made that make ours slightly different that would defeat the object surely.

My worry is in a match I know how many shots I give my op.
off 5 I would give a 10 cap 5 shots he might go to 11 he may go to 9 depending on his exact But itâ€™s only one shot either way.

if I understand it right he could turn up saying I am off 14 this week? That canâ€™t be right.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			That can almost happen with current system anyway.

Interesting point though- will the new system allow two cards on one day?  The current only allows one.
		
Click to expand...

My main point is you would know where you stood so 9.4 play Friday 10 for sat .
under the new system you would not be sure unless you were on top of your last 20 rounds.
This could lead to you playing off wrong handicap in a match up or down.

would you just go off the last posted handicap on computer or hard copy , this could change hourly with social cards coming in all day.
seems the handicap sec is going to be busy or a full time job.


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## Imurg (Feb 25, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			My main point is you would know where you stood so 9.4 play Friday 10 for sat .
under the new system you would not be sure unless you were on top of your last 20 rounds.
This could lead to you playing off wrong handicap in a match up or down.

would you just go off the last posted handicap on computer or hard copy , this could change hourly with social cards coming in all day.
seems the handicap sec is going to be busy or a full time job.
		
Click to expand...

Factor in the potential for an abnormal weather and course conditions calculation and it doesn't become a DIY thing anymore. 
You have to rely on your card being processed.


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## rulefan (Feb 25, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			isnâ€™t this the same as the USA system so they should know the answers , or are tweets being made that make ours slightly different that would defeat the object surely.

My worry is in a match I know how many shots I give my op.
off 5 I would give a 10 cap 5 shots he might go to 11 he may go to 9 depending on his exact But itâ€™s only one shot either way.

if I understand it right he could turn up saying I am off 14 this week? That canâ€™t be right.
		
Click to expand...

How do you and the people you play know your handicaps now? Where do you get the information from? Why should it change?
Is it different after playing in a comp from putting a supplementary score?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Factor in the potential for an abnormal weather and course conditions calculation and it doesn't become a DIY thing anymore. 
You have to rely on your card being processed.
		
Click to expand...

well I think that will cause problems as our handicap sec is a volunteer, this will increase his workload and can see some giving it a miss.
Most clubs donâ€™t have the funds to pay someone to do it.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			well I think that will cause problems as our handicap sec is a volunteer, this will increase his workload and can see some giving it a miss.
Most clubs donâ€™t have the funds to pay someone to do it.
		
Click to expand...

Correct and I think one or two on here are missing that point.


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## Imurg (Feb 25, 2018)

rulefan said:



			How do you and the people you play know your handicaps now? Where do you get the information from? Why should it change?
Is it different after playing in a comp from putting a supplementary score?
		
Click to expand...

Under the current process, with a supplementary, you know immediately of any cut or increase as your score is rated against SSS.. 
Under the new process you need to know, not only your previous 20 scores, but also if there is any other calculation for weather or conditions involved.
The opportunity to get it wrong whilst waiting for your card to be processed is potentially quite large.
Surely just entering your card into a computer can't be enough...it would have to be verified before completion.?


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## upsidedown (Feb 25, 2018)

Sure we'll find out in due course how it will administered , but in NZ your handicap index changed every two weeks at Midnight on a Wednesday. No need to worry , just keep banging your cards in and from memory you got a text message informing you of your new index .

I know they are asking you to submit your cards that day if possible for inclusion and I'm surmising they are going to roll out a "super computer program" that is run nationally and your card /s will be scanned by a scanner . This will have/will be   funded by the national organisation ?


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## jim8flog (Feb 25, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			Sure we'll find out in due course how it will administered , but in NZ your handicap index changed every two weeks at Midnight on a Wednesday. No need to worry , just keep banging your cards in and from memory you got a text message informing you of your new index .

I know they are asking you to submit your cards that day if possible for inclusion and I'm surmising they are going to roll out a "super computer program" that is run nationally and your card /s will be scanned by a scanner . This will have/will be   funded by the national organisation ?
		
Click to expand...

I have been told with Intelligent Golf the facility exists to input you own Supplementary Scores (if the club has turned this on) I assume it would be an easily facility for other software suppliers to have on their systems.

I therefore presume that the club will have the responsibility to adjust for weather conditions and until they do the handicap, as calculated, will stand.

I know with our club set up there are many days when there is nobody available to input Supp. Scores, eg Friday to Sunday, and all weekend comps are not closed until Monday earliest.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			So, very crudely looking at my best 8 from the last 20 competition scores (don't have social scores) it looks like my handicap would be about 1.3. However I had a pretty bad run in the latter half of the year and the 21st and 22nd scores that have just dropped out were good ones so my handicap would have been 0.3 two rounds ago.

Carrying on that trend, the next two scores to drop out are also good ones and if I replace them with the average score I've had since then my handicap would go to 2.4.

So basically in the space of four rounds (which I could easily play in a week in the summer) I could get an extra two shots on my handicap. Not sure someone playing me in a handicap match after that run would be very impressed! 

Interesting though that looking at it this way has my handicap a fair bit lower than at present.
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it, your handicap is not adjusted after every round, but every fortnight. It's possible that this was done to eliminate/smooth this sort of fluctuation!


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## rulefan (Feb 25, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			As I understand it, your handicap is not adjusted after every round, but every fortnight. It's possible that this was done to eliminate/smooth this sort of fluctuation!
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean in the current USGA system or the WHS?


The expectation is that WHS will have software and hardware facilities to be virtually instant.
The weather/course condition adjustments will be very rare and have little impact, especially on non comp rounds.


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## Imurg (Feb 25, 2018)

Totally serious question, which you may not have the answer to....
If the weather/course adjustment will be rare and have little effect, what is the point of having it as it creates doubt.
How are we to know if this adjustment is taking place or not?
This, of course, only really matters of you're not inputting into a computer and getting an immediate result


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## duncan mackie (Feb 25, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			isnâ€™t this the same as the USA system so they should know the answers , or are tweets being made that make ours slightly different that would defeat the object surely.

My worry is in a match I know how many shots I give my op.
off 5 I would give a 10 cap 5 shots he might go to 11 he may go to 9 depending on his exact But itâ€™s only one shot either way.

if I understand it right he could turn up saying I am off 14 this week? That canâ€™t be right.
		
Click to expand...

The WHS isn't the same as the USGA system, although it shares most of the principles.

The tweaks apply to them as well, ie fundamentally there will be the one system.

The tweaks create the questions...

're you second para you won't have a fixed handicap of 5, you will have as handicap index (say 5) which will be converted to a course handicap depending on the course and tee ratings. A handicap index of 5 will produce a course handicap of between 2 and 7. Same for your 10 index opponent (his parametersnwill be 7 and 14) so depending on the course and tees you compete on you may be giving 5, 6 or 7 shots to him. 

However, I suspect your reference was more to do with quickly shifting handicap index calculations - there are already (in the USGA system) restrictions on how far and how fast handicaps can move; the materialmreferenced at thenstart of this thread makes it clear that this principle will be retained (and probably enhanced).

Is it right - Well as the fundamental principles the USGA system is to handicap for form rather than proven capability it would arguably be exactly right...but even the USGA were starting to move away from this and the WHS 'camel' seems to be quite comfortable with the premise that your handicap will be 'the average of the best 8 from the last 20  adjusted as we think fit'


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## duncan mackie (Feb 25, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Totally serious question, which you may not have the answer to....
If the weather/course adjustment will be rare and have little effect, what is the point of having it as it creates doubt.
How are we to know if this adjustment is taking place or not?
This, of course, only really matters of you're not inputting into a computer and getting an immediate result
		
Click to expand...

It can only operate based on all the scores entered for that course (arguably tees as well) on that day which logically means that any immediate result produced must be subject to subsequent correction (unless yours was the last score entered for that day).

I suspect Rulefan's point is that it will be rare for sufficient scores to be entered for a particular course and tee combination that deliver a significance sufficient to recommend an adjustment.

I agree with you that on the face of it it seems tomadd a level of complexity that isn't really necessary....i suspect the answer is that it's there for the rare situation it's appropriate!


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## rulefan (Feb 25, 2018)

Golf Australia have a Daily Scratch Rating which has been operating for a few years.
It is not known how similar this will or will not be to the WHS formula. But feel free to pick out the bones in this.

http://www.golf.org.au/default.aspx...au/site/_content/document/00015547-source.pdf

THe EGA also has a feature

*Computed Buffer Adjustment*
The USGA Course Rating Manual states: â€œThe USGA Course
Rating and Slope Rating must reflect conditions normal for the
season(s) when most rounds are playedâ€. However, sometimes
rounds are played when neither the weather nor the course
conditions are normal and yet, within the EGA Handicap System,
these rounds directly affect handicaps. The Computed Buffer
Adjustment (CBA) calculation has been developed to determine
those occasions when the conditions deviate so far from normal
that, for handicapping purposes, an adjustment must be made to
compensate.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 25, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			The WHS isn't the same as the USGA system, although it shares most of the principles.

The tweaks apply to them as well, ie fundamentally there will be the one system.

The tweaks create the questions...

're you second para you won't have a fixed handicap of 5, you will have as handicap index (say 5) which will be converted to a course handicap depending on the course and tee ratings. A handicap index of 5 will produce a course handicap of between 2 and 7. Same for your 10 index opponent (his parametersnwill be 7 and 14) so depending on the course and tees you compete on you may be giving 5, 6 or 7 shots to him. 

However, I suspect your reference was more to do with quickly shifting handicap index calculations - there are already (in the USGA system) restrictions on how far and how fast handicaps can move; the materialmreferenced at thenstart of this thread makes it clear that this principle will be retained (and probably enhanced).

Is it right - Well as the fundamental principles the USGA system is to handicap for form rather than proven capability it would arguably be exactly right...but even the USGA were starting to move away from this and the WHS 'camel' seems to be quite comfortable with the premise that your handicap will be 'the average of the best 8 from the last 20  adjusted as we think fit'
		
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jeez I think that will cause some head scratching in Most clubhouses.

I will need a night school course to sort that out.

I would reference the made up rules thread when trying to explain this to your op on the First tee.

â€yes I know you are off 5 but weâ€™re playing off the whites so you are off 7 and instead of me being off 10 I am off 14 today , so I get 7 shots instead of 5.â€

I canâ€™t see that going down to well and will be another nail in the coffin of some players not playing in knockout comps.


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## upsidedown (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			jeez I think that will cause some head scratching in Most clubhouses.

I will need a night school course to sort that out.

I would reference the made up rules thread when trying to explain this to your op on the First tee.

â€yes I know you are off 5 but weâ€™re playing off the whites so you are off 7 and instead of me being off 10 I am off 14 today , so I get 7 shots instead of 5.â€

I canâ€™t see that going down to well and will be another nail in the coffin of some players not playing in knockout comps.
		
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Doesn't quite work like that !!

Using the USGAv table http://www.fsga.org/files/cm/Handicapping/Slope Charts.pdf

 Handicap index       5.4              9.5

Slope 113                             5                 10

Slope 123                             6                 10

Slope 133                             6                 11

Slope 143                             7                 12


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## rulefan (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			jeez I think that will cause some head scratching in Most clubhouses.

I will need a night school course to sort that out.

I would reference the made up rules thread when trying to explain this to your op on the First tee.

â€yes I know you are off 5 but weâ€™re playing off the whites so you are off 7 and instead of me being off 10 I am off 14 today , so I get 7 shots instead of 5.â€
		
Click to expand...

Why does it need explaining? You both look at the simple chart. There will be one by the tees, in the proshop and/or locker room.

It will be even easier than the one in the post above as it will only relate to the tees at that course.

Or even use this 

http://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html


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## duncan mackie (Feb 26, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			Doesn't quite work like that !!

Using the USGAv table http://www.fsga.org/files/cm/Handicapping/Slope Charts.pdf

 Handicap index       5.4              9.5

Slope 113                             5                 10

Slope 123                             6                 10

Slope 133                             6                 11

Slope 143                             7                 12
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by doesn't quite work like that?  Those are the correct figures for the top and bottom slope ratings (as the ones you illustrate obviously are are for the ratings you have shown)


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## upsidedown (Feb 26, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Not sure what you mean by doesn't quite work like that?  Those are the correct figures for the top and bottom slope ratings (as the ones you illustrate obviously are are for the ratings you have shown)
		
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It was in reply to clubchamp98 illustrating how it affects a 5 and 10 handicaps in matchplay.

The middle ones are correct too from the table linked .


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## duncan mackie (Feb 26, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			It was in reply to clubchamp98 illustrating how it affects a 5 and 10 handicaps in matchplay.

The middle ones are correct too from the table linked .
		
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Still  confused by what you meant - he was quoting the figures I had produced at the extremes, and if his quoted white tees were rated 155 rather than, say, ones they normally played from  rated at 113, the words he used would be accurate.

I accept that there aren't a lot of 155 rated courses/tees - but in principle...


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## upsidedown (Feb 26, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Still  confused by what you meant - he was quoting the figures I had produced at the extremes, and if his quoted white tees were rated 155 rather than, say, ones they normally played from  rated at 113, the words he used would be accurate.

I accept that there aren't a lot of 155 rated courses/tees - but in principle...
		
Click to expand...

Sorry hadn't seen your post that he was quoting. I used the 4 different scenarios as they would cover most courses that we are likely to encounter in the UK. Argee there are not many around at 155


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 26, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			Sorry hadn't seen your post that he was quoting. I used the 4 different scenarios as they would cover most courses that we are likely to encounter in the UK. Argee there are not many around at 155
		
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So you lads who know what you are doing get confused by a table of h/caps what chance mere mortals.

It just seems to me all the changes lately have not exactly been good for the low men.
As nearly all changes in the last couple of years mean a scratch man is just giving more shots everytime he tees up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			So you lads who know what you are doing get confused by a table of h/caps what chance mere mortals.

It just seems to me all the changes lately have not exactly been good for the low men.
As nearly all changes in the last couple of years mean a scratch man is just giving more shots everytime he tees up.
		
Click to expand...

Not strictly true - the 90% Rule has helped our Cat 1 when it comes to 4BBB Stableford for example - normally would lose a shot but yesterday I played off my HC where as anyone other 5 lost shots 

If you are good enough you will still win - any changes over the past 12-24 months havenâ€™t changed the people winning the comps


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## upsidedown (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			So you lads who know what you are doing get confused by a table of h/caps what chance mere mortals.

.
		
Click to expand...

No not confused at all  Just didn't read the question properly   I also highlighted the more than likely scenario a 5 and 10 handicapper would encounter.


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## rulefan (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			It just seems to me all the changes* lately* have not exactly been good for the low men.
As nearly all changes in the last couple of years mean a scratch man is just giving more shots everytime he tees up.
		
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Not the WHS then.

But have you bothered to find out how the USGA rating and slope systems work?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 26, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			No not confused at all  Just didn't read the question properly   I also highlighted the more than likely scenario a 5 and 10 handicapper would encounter.
		
Click to expand...

My only gripe really is when these changes occur I never seem to give anyone less shots.
It seems the powers that Be are helping the high cappers as much as they can .


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 26, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Not the WHS then.

But have you bothered to find out how the USGA rating and slope systems work?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I use it quite regularly , it works there because they have five or six tees so you can pick your slope difficulty.
At my club we have two , but we play all comps from the whites you donâ€™t have a choice.


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## upsidedown (Feb 26, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			My only gripe really is when these changes occur I never seem to give anyone less shots.
It seems the powers that Be are helping the high cappers as much as they can .
		
Click to expand...

And rightly so if it encourages more people to take up the game . Hopefully the new system will take care of the rapidly improving golfer and thus less shots given for matchplay. Yes it's a challenge sometimes giving away lots of shots but us low guys should win more thn we lose and when we do lose , well, well done to the other guy.

Probably why I enjoy County seniors golf so much , you get a great buzz beating someone off 2-3 when you're a 5  Are you playing much this year ?


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## garyinderry (Feb 26, 2018)

Do this new system have a slight flaw in it? 


It works well if everyone tries their best in each round.  Does it fall down if there are loads of players who essentially give up on their rounds after they have a few bad holes. 

There is loads of these types of players. Head goes down and dont push to score the best they can on the day.  

They will have a pile of awful cards and then a cracker when they eventually play well and keep it going. 

Their average scores won't be representative of their scoring ability.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 26, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			And rightly so if it encourages more people to take up the game . Hopefully the new system will take care of the rapidly improving golfer and thus less shots given for matchplay. Yes it's a challenge sometimes giving away lots of shots but us low guys should win more thn we lose and when we do lose , well, well done to the other guy.

Probably why I enjoy County seniors golf so much , you get a great buzz beating someone off 2-3 when you're a 5  Are you playing much this year ?
		
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Tore my left ankle ligaments three weeks ago , going stir crazy at home.
Played nine holes on Sunday , just canâ€™t get through the ball onto left side so blocking everything right.

I played scratch league golf for twenty years , not played much in the seniors as we play on the Maxitour midweek .

Dont you think the system is a bit skewed , everyone seems to think low cappers play well all the time but we donâ€™t.

3/4 to full handicap 
3/4 to 90% even in 4BBB.

It just seems the lads who work on their game to get better are not getting any help.

The last couple of years I have been thrashed by 12/14/15 cappers in the knock out as they can play the game but I am giving 7/9/10. By the way I played quite well in all these games.
Its put me off now .
Under this new system that could be more shots, but will never be less!


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## patricks148 (Feb 27, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			My only gripe really is when these changes occur I never seem to give anyone less shots.
It seems the powers that Be are helping the high cappers as much as they can .
		
Click to expand...

Just thought i would make the point i was told by an R&A member. The change is about helping low handicappers. How so you ask? At the moment most of the top Am comps in the world are dominated by US players. on the whole they have much lower handicaps due to their system and most of our players get balloted out of some of these. with these changes it will allow UK players to get just as low. and now find it easier to get into these and the ranking points that come with. Apparently


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## rulefan (Feb 27, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			The last couple of years I have been thrashed by 12/14/15 cappers in the knock out as they can play the game but I am giving 7/9/10. By the way I played quite well in all these games.
Its put me off now .
Under this new system that could be more shots, but will never be less!
		
Click to expand...

The CONGU stats show that 55% of handicap matches are won by the lower handicapper. You must be the exception or are getting older


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## rulefan (Feb 27, 2018)

Hot news

http://www.golf.org.au/newsdisplay/99811


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## duncan mackie (Feb 27, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Hot news

http://www.golf.org.au/newsdisplay/99811

Click to expand...

Well worded explanations of the practical application of the soft cap (historic handicap anchor mechanism) and overall better presented than the main worldwide announcement!


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## BTatHome (Feb 27, 2018)

Hmm, so based on the soft/hard cap my handicap would not be above 6 until the miraculous 73 'anchor point' disappears ... it could then increase to 9 immediately?

It's a logical capping system and hopefully works well to ease the panic from many players thinking about bandits and sandbaggers.


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## jim8flog (Feb 27, 2018)

rulefan said:



			The CONGU stats show that 55% of handicap matches are won by the lower handicapper. You must be the exception or are getting older 

Click to expand...

I have always been interested in where they get the information for the 'stats'. I know we have never been sent a questionnaire at our club.


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## jim8flog (Feb 27, 2018)

One of the interesting points is that Australia will be allowed to keep their handicap limits of 36/45.

Given that the increase in handicaps limits in the UK to 54 was only supposed to be a interim measure pending introduction of the WGHS will these now be revised?


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## rulefan (Feb 27, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I have always been interested in where they get the information for the 'stats'. I know we have never been sent a questionnaire at our club.
		
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Does your club keep such matchplay information? I suspect many don't.

As it happens when I first saw that and mentioned it to our club manager, he said that 10 or more years worth of draw sheets were in a box in the attic. He always put them there 'just in case'. In case of what, I never asked.

Anyway, we went through them and found them to be consistent with CONGU. Those years when 3/4 applied fitted their figure also (62%).
But in one year, all but one of 4 comps had the lower cappers winning every game.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 27, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I have always been interested in where they get the information for the 'stats'. I know we have never been sent a questionnaire at our club.
		
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They could get it straight out of IG in our case; but accept that there wont have been a whole load of historical data from such recent innovations (in the scale of things)


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## rulefan (Feb 27, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I have always been interested in where they get the information for the 'stats'. I know we have never been sent a questionnaire at our club.
		
Click to expand...

*Myth â€¦..*






_â€œIt is unfair in singles match play to require the lower handicap player to concede full handicap difference to his opponent. Three-quarters of the difference was more equitable.â€_


â€¢       Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association, English Golf Union and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full versus three-quarters difference in handicap.

â€¢         All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion â€“ full difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable allowance.

â€¢       A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]Â¾ Diff
[/TD]
[TD]Full Diff.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matches won by lower handicap player
[/TD]
[TD]61%
[/TD]
[TD]55%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matches won by the higher handicap player
[/TD]
[TD]39%
[/TD]
[TD]45%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From the above it can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower handicap player retains an advantage.

â€¢       To further explore the significant advantage given to the lower handicap player by limiting the handicap allowance in match play to Â¾ of the difference in handicaps, a handicap match play event with a large entry was analysed in detail.

â€¢         The following table tracks the representation, and hence performance of players in respect to Handicap Category at various stages of the competition.


[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 4"]Handicap Category
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Representation
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Cat.1
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Cat.2
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Cat.3
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Cat.4
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]                       
[/TD]
[TD]No.
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]%
[/TD]
[TD]No.
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]%
[/TD]
[TD]No.
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]%
[/TD]
[TD]No.
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Comp. Start
[/TD]
[TD]27
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]104
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[TD]72
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]34.5
[/TD]
[TD]5
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]2.5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last 32
[/TD]
[TD]9
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]28
[/TD]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]65.5
[/TD]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]6.5
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last 4
[/TD]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Finalists
[/TD]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]100
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



























































































































â€¢       The above is a fairly dramatic example of the bias in favour of the better player but the general trend repeats in the majority of club singles handicap events.

â€¢       In addition, the increasing probability of the lower handicap player prevailing with an increase in strokes conceded was clearly demonstrated as follows:


[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Difference in
[/TD]
[TD]No. of Matches Won by
[/TD]
[TD]No. of Matches Won by
[/TD]
[TD]% of Matches Won by
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Handicaps
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Higher Handicap Player
[/TD]
[TD]Lower Handicap Player
[/TD]
[TD]Lower Handicap Player
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD](Strokes)
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD] 
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 to 2
[/TD]
[TD]20
[/TD]
[TD]28
[/TD]
[TD]58
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3 to 5
[/TD]
[TD]19
[/TD]
[TD]40
[/TD]
[TD]68
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6 to 8
[/TD]
[TD]12
[/TD]
[TD]29
[/TD]
[TD]71
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9 to 11
[/TD]
[TD]7
[/TD]
[TD]22
[/TD]
[TD]76
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12 to 14
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]100
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 to 18
[/TD]
[TD]0
[/TD]
[TD]4
[/TD]
[TD]100
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]































â€¢       CONGU recommends the full difference between the handicaps of the two players in singles match play. A Union may at its discretion make this recommendation mandatory.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2018)

rulefan said:



			The CONGU stats show that 55% of handicap matches are won by the lower handicapper. You must be the exception or are getting older 

Click to expand...

Both,
But I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that practicing lots to keep cat1 is not really worth it.
I would be really dangerous off 12 like lots of others that think like this!


----------



## jim8flog (Feb 27, 2018)

@ rulefan

So it was 400 Scottish players

Therein lies the problem


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Both,
But I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that practicing lots to keep cat1 is not really worth it.
I would be really dangerous off 12 like lots of others that think like this!
		
Click to expand...

Do you only play the game to win then ? Or do you play the game to be as good as you can - if youâ€™re too worried about being beaten by higher handicaps than you then just play in scratch KO and comps 
This year are big KO was won by a 6 HC , the Winter KO a 4 and 6 HCâ€™s - most of the comps are won by lower HCâ€™s 

Your posts just sound like sour grapes that you canâ€™t win


----------



## IanG (Feb 27, 2018)

I suspect (but have no evidence) that the perception held by (some) low handicappers that they are at a disadvantage comes simply from there being many, many more high handicappers than low handicappers. So when they do get beat, it is most often by a high handicapper, simply because there are more of them in the draw.


----------



## guest100718 (Feb 27, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Do this new system have a slight flaw in it? 


It works well if everyone tries their best in each round.  Does it fall down if there are loads of players who essentially give up on their rounds after they have a few bad holes. 

There is loads of these types of players. Head goes down and dont push to score the best they can on the day.  

They will have a pile of awful cards and then a cracker when they eventually play well and keep it going. 

Their average scores won't be representative of their scoring ability.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guilty of this. but as it's average of my best 8 I wouldn't think this matters so much


----------



## Jamesbrown (Feb 27, 2018)

Come to think of it this new system would also save me money. 
The main reason Iâ€™m at my current club is because they have 3 qualifiers a week. 

When social rounds become eligible for handicap purposes I can look at alternative cheaper courses. 
Supplementaries seem to be knacker ache to arrange and come with a Â£5 admin fee. Better yet the handicap secretaries are ex directory on IG.


----------



## rulefan (Feb 27, 2018)

IanG said:



			I suspect (but have no evidence) that the perception held by (some) low handicappers that they are at a disadvantage comes simply from there being many, many more high handicappers than low handicappers. So when they do get beat, it is most often by a high handicapper, simply because there are more of them in the draw.
		
Click to expand...

An analysis was made of the distribution of winners by handicap, derived over three years from 2622 competitions involving some 250000 rounds.
It was shown that there is goodcorrelation between the number of players at a given handicap and their winningfrequency.
The average handicap of the winning player was found to be 13.3 which bears veryfavourable comparison to the average club handicap of 14 (discounting those membersplaying less than three qualifying competitions p.a.)


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 27, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you only play the game to win then ? Or do you play the game to be as good as you can - if youâ€™re too worried about being beaten by higher handicaps than you then just play in scratch KO and comps 
This year are big KO was won by a 6 HC , the Winter KO a 4 and 6 HCâ€™s - most of the comps are won by lower HCâ€™s 

Your posts just sound like sour grapes that you canâ€™t win
		
Click to expand...

yes thatâ€™s right I hate losing.
Especially to people I know should be lower but just canâ€™t be bothered .

Its not the high caps who are the problem itâ€™s the 12/18 guys who can play but stay where they are

Just imagine a scenario in football that the top five teams have to give everyone else a one goal start, and the bottom five a two goal start, thatâ€™s what is happening in golf imo.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			yes thatâ€™s right I hate losing.
Especially to people I know should be lower but just canâ€™t be bothered .

Its not the high caps who are the problem itâ€™s the 12/18 guys who can play but stay where they are

Just imagine a scenario in football that the top five teams have to give everyone else a one goal start, and the bottom five a two goal start, thatâ€™s what is happening in golf imo.
		
Click to expand...

Well you certainly are bitter 

â€œShould be lower but canâ€™t be botheredâ€ ?!how do you know they canâ€™t be bothered 

People play the game for different reasons a lot just for a bit of competitive fun , 99% have the HC they do for a reason 

If you canâ€™t handle losing to someone of a higher HC then donâ€™t play in the matchplay Comps then or dry your eyes and suck it up itâ€™s just a game and moaning and attitudes like yours give low HC a bad name. If you are that serious go and play scratch games or maybe you have a HC you canâ€™t play too. 

And your scenario is irrelevant - Golf has a Handicap System to try and level the playing field so that we can all compete together as much as possible - if you donâ€™t like it then play scratch


----------



## duncan mackie (Feb 28, 2018)

Jamesbrown said:



			Come to think of it this new system would also save me money. 
The main reason Iâ€™m at my current club is because they have 3 qualifiers a week. 

When social rounds become eligible for handicap purposes I can look at alternative cheaper courses. 
Supplementaries seem to be knacker ache to arrange and come with a Â£5 admin fee. Better yet the handicap secretaries are ex directory on IG.
		
Click to expand...

Unless you are cat 1 you have been able to maintain a c handicap through supplementals for some time now (and can also manage it as a cat 1 with rounds later in the year. 
You seem to be at the only club I'm aware of that charges for supplemental administration - may I ask which one? Seems entirely counter to the principles; and even more so going forward.
The social rounds eligible for handicapping are envisaged to be on exactly the same terms as sup plementals currently - although direct score entry is also assumed to underly administration.


----------



## Grant85 (Feb 28, 2018)

Matchplay certainly doesn't help low handicappers (especially at a reasonably short course or 'easy' set up). 

High handicappers can turn up and get a shot on most holes and it is quite easy to put pressure on a low man who feels he has to hit every green. 

On a championship course / set up the good play is better rewarded for a low handicapper. 

Remember handicaps are generated almost exclusively in medal / strokeplay format. Maybe the odd stableford round counts, but the format heaps a lot of pressure on mid to high players who can play most shots, but not string enough good shots together to score well over 18 holes... even if they do make par or bogey at most holes, a couple of wayward shots OB or into serious trouble is a card wrecker.


----------



## Imurg (Feb 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Unless you are cat 1 you have been able to maintain a c handicap through supplementals for some time now (and can also manage it as a cat 1 with rounds later in the year. 
You seem to be at the only club I'm aware of that charges for supplemental administration - may I ask which one? Seems entirely counter to the principles; and even more so going forward.
The social rounds eligible for handicapping are envisaged to be on exactly the same terms as sup plementals currently - although direct score entry is also assumed to underly administration.
		
Click to expand...

We get charged a pound for supplementary cards..


----------



## rosecott (Feb 28, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Matchplay certainly doesn't help low handicappers (especially at a reasonably short course or 'easy' set up). 

High handicappers can turn up and get a shot on most holes and it is quite easy to put pressure on a low man who feels he has to hit every green. 

On a championship course / set up the good play is better rewarded for a low handicapper. 

*Remember handicaps are generated almost exclusively in medal / strokeplay format*. Maybe the odd stableford round counts, but the format heaps a lot of pressure on mid to high players who can play most shots, but not string enough good shots together to score well over 18 holes... even if they do make par or bogey at most holes, a couple of wayward shots OB or into serious trouble is a card wrecker.
		
Click to expand...

Handicaps are based on stableford scores.


----------



## rulefan (Feb 28, 2018)

Our pro handles all supplementary cards. As it wasn't in his retainer he now gets Â£1.50 and we charge players an extra 50p as a contribution to the computer costs (which is made for all comps in addition to the sweep and twos club). Members are quite happy about it.


----------



## jim8flog (Feb 28, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Remember handicaps are generated almost exclusively in medal / strokeplay format. Maybe the odd stableford round counts,.
		
Click to expand...

Not true where I play, we have 3 comps a week (+1 a fortnight for seniors). During the winter months these are all stablefords, during the summer 2 out of the 3 are stableford. The seniors comps are 2 stablefords to 1 medal.

(CONGU Clause C).  Handicaps are mainly based upon stableford scoring as anything worse than a net double bogey is reduced too nett double bogey so having a major 'blow up' on a hole or simply recording holes as NRs actually has the same effect on handicap as having a slightly bad score on hole.

It is possible to have NRs on a card and get your handicap cut using the net double bogey adjustment


----------



## Grant85 (Feb 28, 2018)

Fair enough re: stableford - but that wasn't my impression. Both clubs I've played in only had 1 official stableford competition a year. 

Other times when I looked at my stableford score in a strokeplay event, thinking it would be enough to at least hit buffer... I still went up 0.1.


----------



## rulefan (Feb 28, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Fair enough re: stableford - but that wasn't my impression. Both clubs I've played in only had 1 official stableford competition a year. 

Other times when I looked at my stableford score in a strokeplay event, thinking it would be enough to at least hit buffer... I still went up 0.1.
		
Click to expand...

Were you comparing with par, CSS or SSS


----------



## Fish (Feb 28, 2018)

http://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/euro/20182602/index.html#a_quick_9

&#128526;


----------



## Grant85 (Feb 28, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Were you comparing with par, CSS or SSS
		
Click to expand...

I can't say for certain, but at the club i was at for longest, both were usually 65 (par 66) and occasionally it would be 66 or 67 on the day (usually with high wind and a bit of rain combined).


----------



## cliveb (Feb 28, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Matchplay certainly doesn't help low handicappers (especially at a reasonably short course or 'easy' set up). 

High handicappers can turn up and get a shot on most holes and it is quite easy to put pressure on a low man who feels he has to hit every green.
		
Click to expand...

Low handicappers who think like that are the ones that get beaten by high cappers. They erroneously think that they have to play out of their skin because their opponent is getting so many shots, so they push too hard and mess up. All they need to do is play their game and wait for the high capper to blow up - which they usually do.


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 28, 2018)

Given there will be no categories, so no cat 1, will h/caps of 5.4 and under still be county?


----------



## Grant85 (Feb 28, 2018)

cliveb said:



			Low handicappers who think like that are the ones that get beaten by high cappers. They erroneously think that they have to play out of their skin because their opponent is getting so many shots, so they push too hard and mess up. All they need to do is play their game and wait for the high capper to blow up - which they usually do.
		
Click to expand...

But that depends on why a player is a high handicapper. 

He may be new to the game, but he is probably more likely to be an experienced player who is simply inconsistent and doesn't really try to improve particularly hard and may only play to his handicap once a season or so. 

Blowing up in a medal is a big problem as it ruins your whole score, but in matchplay - its only 1 hole and you can move on knowing you are standing on the next tee with 1 free shot. 

I did well as a high handicapper in matchplay when I was improving (as a 23 handicapper). I couldn't get a medal score together despite playing and trying in as many medals as I could. 

In matchplay I was so much more relaxed and played (and scored) much better. Obviously I still had bad holes, but I could just pick up and move to the next tee.


----------



## rulefan (Feb 28, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Given there will be no categories, so no cat 1, will h/caps of 5.4 and under still be county?
		
Click to expand...

Not yet decided.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2018)

Imurg said:



			We get charged a pound for supplementary cards..
		
Click to expand...

We do but it's only to help with supplementing section funds and it was voted in and nobody minds bearing in mind most of our qualifier games have a Â£3 entrance fee.


----------



## duncan mackie (Feb 28, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Blowing up in a medal is a big problem as it ruins your whole score, but in matchplay - its only 1 hole and you can move on knowing you are standing on the next tee with 1 free shot. 

I did well as a high handicapper in matchplay when I was improving (as a 23 handicapper). I couldn't get a medal score together despite playing and trying in as many medals as I could.
		
Click to expand...

There seems to be some confusion.

You are handicapped to stableford scoring ie If you have a 12 at a par 3 you wont be dropping 9 shots to the course from any handicap for handicap purposes! 

On the other hand you will suffer when the prizes are distributed!

On balance the lower handicaps have a further advantage in medal play, it's neutral for stableford events and the higher guys have their best chances in bogey events (The match play equivilent competition).

But these are still generalities that definitely don't always play out, and I've met inconsistent cat 1 players and entirely consistent cat 4 ones (usually typified by 2 points a hole stableford cards)


----------



## Leveltwos (Feb 28, 2018)

Just wondering where par (bogey) competitions will fit into this? At the moment your handicap is adjusted to your +/- score against css which often doesnâ€™t reflect what your stableford score would have been.
Also, as the whole golfing world will now be dancing to the same handicapping tune does this now mean that our golfing cousins across the water will have to cease submitting scores that include mulligans and breakfast balls etc? Or, more interestingly, will we be encouraged to use them ourselves? In the interest of world wide uniformity of course!


----------



## rulefan (Feb 28, 2018)

Leveltwos said:



			does this now mean that our golfing cousins across the water will have to cease submitting scores that include mulligans and breakfast balls etc?
		
Click to expand...

That will of course be a test of the 'attested scores' requirement. But rules over there seem to be a take it or leave it option.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you certainly are bitter 

â€œShould be lower but canâ€™t be botheredâ€ ?!how do you know they canâ€™t be bothered 

People play the game for different reasons a lot just for a bit of competitive fun , 99% have the HC they do for a reason 

If you canâ€™t handle losing to someone of a higher HC then donâ€™t play in the matchplay Comps then or dry your eyes and suck it up itâ€™s just a game and moaning and attitudes like yours give low HC a bad name. If you are that serious go and play scratch games or maybe you have a HC you canâ€™t play too. 

And your scenario is irrelevant - Golf has a Handicap System to try and level the playing field so that we can all compete together as much as possible - if you donâ€™t like it then play scratch
		
Click to expand...

I know because I ask ! Thatâ€™s how I find out things in general.
Please donâ€™t tell me what to do , if you donâ€™t like my opinion tough.
I can play to my cap but itâ€™s not enough against some of the bandits Iâ€™ve played.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			I know because I ask ! Thatâ€™s how I find out things in general.
Please donâ€™t tell me what to do , if you donâ€™t like my opinion tough.
I can play to my cap but itâ€™s not enough against some of the bandits Iâ€™ve played.
		
Click to expand...

In all my time doing HC and Comp sec there is always that one person that always complains about High HCs , normally calls them bandits and itâ€™s normally because they are bitter about being beaten by someone with a higher HC - my answer to them is always the same - play better or accept being beaten graciously. The HC system isnâ€™t biased towards any HC - they have shown that factually and if you canâ€™t handle getting beaten by a higher HC and actually refer to them as bandits then the simple answer for you is to not play in them.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Feb 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In all my time doing HC and Comp sec there is always that one person that always complains about High HCs , normally calls them bandits and itâ€™s normally because they are bitter about being beaten by someone with a higher HC - my answer to them is always the same - play better or accept being beaten graciously. The HC system isnâ€™t biased towards any HC - they have shown that factually and if you canâ€™t handle getting beaten by a higher HC and actually refer to them as bandits then the simple answer for you is to not play in them.
		
Click to expand...

as I said I donâ€™t need you to tell me what to do.
I am just voicing my opinion
High cappers donâ€™t bother me itâ€™s the 12/ 16 bandits that should be off 10 but you canâ€™t see this or more like donâ€™t want to.
every clubs got them.
Just to let you know I did say I donâ€™t play in the ko any more .
You canâ€™t get in the scratch events here off 5 it usually ballots at 3.0.


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 1, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In all my time doing HC and Comp sec there is always that one person that always complains about High HCs , normally calls them bandits and itâ€™s normally because they are bitter about being beaten by someone with a higher HC - my answer to them is always the same - play better or accept being beaten graciously. The HC system isnâ€™t biased towards any HC - they have shown that factually and if you canâ€™t handle getting beaten by a higher HC and actually refer to them as bandits then the simple answer for you is to not play in them.
		
Click to expand...

This reminds me of one guy at our club who believes we should do away with handicaps and it should be the best gross that wins. He no doubt has this view because he is a low handicapped senior and only ever plays in seniors comps where we have a fairly limited number of single figure golfers who play in those comps.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			This reminds me of one guy at our club who believes we should do away with handicaps and it should be the best gross that wins. He no doubt has this view because he is a low handicapped senior and only ever plays in seniors comps where we have a fairly limited number of single figure golfers who play in those comps.
		
Click to expand...

Best way around all this is to have a best gross prize in amongst the normal prizes.


----------



## rulefan (Mar 1, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			This reminds me of one guy at our club who believes we should do away with handicaps and it should be the best gross that wins. He no doubt has this view because he is a low handicapped senior and only ever plays in seniors comps where we have a fairly limited number of single figure golfers who play in those comps.
		
Click to expand...

And he will see his subs double (at least).


----------



## duncan mackie (Mar 1, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Best way around all this is to have a best gross prize in amongst the normal prizes.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, better to smile, agree, and do absolutely nothing....if you really feel the need to do anything, include a scratch section to the competition on an entirely voluntary entry basis!


----------



## jim8flog (Mar 1, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Best way around all this is to have a best gross prize in amongst the normal prizes.
		
Click to expand...

We do.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Nope, better to smile, agree, and do absolutely nothing....!
		
Click to expand...

Im more interested in getting more people to play and it worked for us.


----------



## duncan mackie (Mar 1, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Im more interested in getting more people to play and it worked for us.
		
Click to expand...

Never had any issues with getting low handicappers to play in our club comps - we recently considered having handicap divisions (we don't have any in any comps) and straw polled the membership; the cat 1s were dead against it as it would reduce the amount they won over time!

Seriously, if it takes prizes to entice people to enter the monthly medal somethings a little out of kilter...


----------



## garyinderry (Mar 1, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Do this new system have a slight flaw in it? 


It works well if everyone tries their best in each round.  Does it fall down if there are loads of players who essentially give up on their rounds after they have a few bad holes. 

There is loads of these types of players. Head goes down and dont push to score the best they can on the day.  

They will have a pile of awful cards and then a cracker when they eventually play well and keep it going. 

Their average scores won't be representative of their scoring ability.
		
Click to expand...


Anyone have an opinion on this? 

I can see this being a real problem.  As it stands sandbaggers pull up if they feel they won't score well.   many players who aren't bandits have a habit for not giving their all when a round gets away from them. Their average scores will be terrible.


----------



## Nosevi (Mar 1, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Anyone have an opinion on this? 

I can see this being a real problem.  As it stands sandbaggers pull up if they feel they won't score well.   many players who aren't bandits have a habit for not giving their all when a round gets away from them. Their average scores will be terrible.
		
Click to expand...

As itâ€™s the average of their best 8 of the last 20 rounds it shouldnâ€™t be too much of a snag unless they do this almost the whole time. When they give up itâ€™ll just be one of the 12 rounds in the last 20 which donâ€™t count.


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## Nosevi (Mar 1, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			We do.
		
Click to expand...

And us. 

I like the handicap system as it means I can have a good â€˜grudge matchâ€™ with plenty of banter against my Dad but I see nothing wrong with having a best gross score win as well as a best nett. Why would that be an issue? If you shot the lowest score on the day it should be ok to feel chuffed shouldnâ€™t it? Golfâ€™s a sport after all. Nothing wrong with being good at a sport. Iâ€™d still enter comps without a gross winner but in reality, if Iâ€™m feeling competitive, Iâ€™m only ever looking at the gross scores to see how I did.

It works both ways though. I have a mate who was off plus 4 and played for his international team prior to turning pro so Iâ€™m the â€˜high capperâ€™. We always play straight up. If he gave me shots Iâ€™d never feel Iâ€™d actually won and heâ€™d never feel heâ€™d lost. And I never have won. Iâ€™ve taken him close a time or two and taken him up the 18th not long ago which got his attention. The day I beat him Iâ€™ll feel as if Iâ€™ve acheived something.

Each to their own but coming from other sports to golf I think the handicap system is great for â€˜socialâ€™ golf and I wouldnâ€™t want to lose it. But for serious competition may the best player win. And against my mate thatâ€™s yet to be me


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## duncan mackie (Mar 1, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			This reminds me of one guy at our club who believes we should do away with handicaps and it should be the best gross that wins. He no doubt has this view because he is a low handicapped senior and only ever plays in seniors comps where we have a fairly limited number of single figure golfers who play in those comps.
		
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Old Skier said:



			Best way around all this is to have a best gross prize in amongst the normal prizes.
		
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jim8flog said:



			We do.
		
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I'm confused; your initial post suggested you didn't have a gross award, but apparently you do?

I just find it strange that, as an example, in a field of 40 players where younhave 1 cat 1, 2 high cat 2s and 37 cat 3&4 players anyone would think it sensible to chuck in a gross prize. Clearly I'm alone in this view.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 1, 2018)

garyinderry said:



			Anyone have an opinion on this? 

I can see this being a real problem.  As it stands sandbaggers pull up if they feel they won't score well.   many players who aren't bandits have a habit for not giving their all when a round gets away from them. Their average scores will be terrible.
		
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I understand where you are coming from; I believe that one element of your concern results from behaviour driven by the current system - this should change over time (pretty quickly really).

The underlying element applies to every system - the WHS has taken the protection (against this) brought into the USGA system to the next level, after which the committee has responsibility as previously.


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## Nosevi (Mar 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I'm confused; your initial post suggested you didn't have a gross award, but apparently you do?

I just find it strange that, as an example, in a field of 40 players where younhave 1 cat 1, 2 high cat 2s and 37 cat 3&4 players anyone would think it sensible to chuck in a gross prize. Clearly I'm alone in this view.
		
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I think youâ€™re slightly looking at it through the â€˜prismâ€™ of your seniorsâ€™ (at a guess?) monthly medal. Weâ€™ve got about 30 Cat 1 guys at my club although obviously not all play every comp. Woodhall where Iâ€™m coached has about 65 Cat 1 guys.

Just to be clear, I meant to say that we donâ€™t always have a gross score prize, we just have a gross score winner. If itâ€™s a handicap comp the nett winner gets the prize, if itâ€™s a scratch comp the gross winner gets the prize. But you can view the leaderboard by nett or gross whether itâ€™s a scratch or handicap comp, the gross is the only one the cat 1 guys are honestly bothered about winning though.

Iâ€™ll always take the gross win with no prize over the nett win with a prize. Why wouldnâ€™t I? The object of the sport is to get round the course in less strokes than the rest of the field. Trying to do so canâ€™t be seen as a bad thing unless the view is that golf is a game and in no way a sport. What I love about golf is that itâ€™s very much a game AND a sport. My Dad and his mates can all go out and â€˜battleâ€™ it out for bragging rights in the bar having had a great social afternoon with plenty of niggle thrown in. The guys like myself can hit the gym, spend hours on the practice ground or on the range and treat it far more like a sport trying to beat the other guys with this view of golf as more of a sport. And whatâ€™s fantastic is we can all do it on the same course, at the same time, in the same competition.

Iâ€™d hate to lose the handicap system as was touted earlier in the thread because youâ€™d lose the â€˜golf as a social gameâ€™ element of golf. But equally thereâ€™s nothing at all wrong with treating golf as a sport and trying to beat other players treating it as such, by simply trying to shoot a lower score than them. You donâ€™t want to kill the former but personally, if you honestly want to grow the game youâ€™ll only do it if you push the latter.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In all my time doing HC and Comp sec there is always that one person that always complains about High HCs , normally calls them bandits and itâ€™s normally because they are bitter about being beaten by someone with a higher HC - my answer to them is always the same - play better or accept being beaten graciously. *The HC system isnâ€™t biased towards any HC *- they have shown that factually and if you canâ€™t handle getting beaten by a higher HC and actually refer to them as bandits then the simple answer for you is to not play in them.
		
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I know what you mean but, pedantically, the HC system is obviously biased towards high handicaps. That is the very reason for its existence!


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## Old Skier (Mar 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know what you mean but, pedantically, the HC system is obviously biased towards high handicaps. That is the very reason for its existence! 

Click to expand...

Strange, I thought the system was to produced a level playing field.


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## Nosevi (Mar 2, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, I thought the system was to produced a level playing field.
		
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What, so that the most skilled player wins? Nope. 

A level â€˜playing fieldâ€™ is one where all competitors compete on the same terms, not where everyone scores the same regardless of ability. The â€˜playing fieldâ€™ isnâ€™t level with a handicap system, the playing field is deliberately tilted (or biased) to ensure players of different abilities are able to compete against each other. 

Itâ€™s a great thing and golf wouldnâ€™t be what it is without it. But it doesnâ€™t create a level playing field. It quite deliberately does the opposite.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 2, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			This reminds me of one guy at our club who believes we should do away with handicaps and it should be the best gross that wins. He no doubt has this view because he is a low handicapped senior and only ever plays in seniors comps where we have a fairly limited number of single figure golfers who play in those comps.
		
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Old Skier said:



			Best way around all this is to have a best gross prize in amongst the normal prizes.
		
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Nosevi said:



			I think youâ€™re slightly looking at it through the â€˜prismâ€™ of your seniorsâ€™ (at a guess?) monthly medal. Weâ€™ve got about 30 Cat 1 guys at my club although obviously not all play every comp. Woodhall where Iâ€™m coached has about 65 Cat 1 guys.

Just to be clear, I meant to say that we donâ€™t always have a gross score prize, we just have a gross score winner. If itâ€™s a handicap comp the nett winner gets the prize, if itâ€™s a scratch comp the gross winner gets the prize. But you can view the leaderboard by nett or gross whether itâ€™s a scratch or handicap comp, the gross is the only one the cat 1 guys are honestly bothered about winning though.

Iâ€™ll always take the gross win with no prize over the nett win with a prize. Why wouldnâ€™t I? The object of the sport is to get round the course in less strokes than the rest of the field. Trying to do so canâ€™t be seen as a bad thing unless the view is that golf is a game and in no way a sport. What I love about golf is that itâ€™s very much a game AND a sport. My Dad and his mates can all go out and â€˜battleâ€™ it out for bragging rights in the bar having had a great social afternoon with plenty of niggle thrown in. The guys like myself can hit the gym, spend hours on the practice ground or on the range and treat it far more like a sport trying to beat the other guys with this view of golf as more of a sport. And whatâ€™s fantastic is we can all do it on the same course, at the same time, in the same competition.

Iâ€™d hate to lose the handicap system as was touted earlier in the thread because youâ€™d lose the â€˜golf as a social gameâ€™ element of golf. But equally thereâ€™s nothing at all wrong with treating golf as a sport and trying to beat other players treating it as such, by simply trying to shoot a lower score than them. You donâ€™t want to kill the former but personally, if you honestly want to grow the game youâ€™ll only do it if you push the latter.
		
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I completely agree with just about every word you have written - but would point out that I wasn't using a prism, I was responding specifically to the post that started this aspect (which is why i multiquoted It!) and simply overlaying our current handicap map for that particular situation to make it real.

Equally, printing the best gross on the results sheet is both a norm, and source of satisfaction for those achieving it in every walk of golf. Long may it continue. However, other posts advocated prizes, by inference all the time, which surprised me - hence part of the post.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 2, 2018)

FairwayDodger said:



			I know what you mean but, pedantically, the HC system is obviously biased towards high handicaps. That is the very reason for its existence! 

Click to expand...

To be really pedantic.....the existence of the system provides support for the weaker golfer; but within the system (all systems and retained in the WHS calcs) there is a bias (reward for excellence) to the lower handicap. I believe it is around 9.3%.

As with every application of arithmetic advantage in normal distribution events, the larger the incidence the more accurately it's reflected - 72 hole medal events are usually enough to illustrate it!


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## Nosevi (Mar 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I completely agree with just about every word you have written - but would point out that I wasn't using a prism, I was responding specifically to the post that started this aspect (which is why i multiquoted It!) and simply overlaying our current handicap map for that particular situation to make it real.

Equally, printing the best gross on the results sheet is both a norm, and source of satisfaction for those achieving it in every walk of golf. Long may it continue. However, other posts advocated prizes, by inference all the time, which surprised me - hence part of the post.
		
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Fair enough


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I'm confused; your initial post suggested you didn't have a gross award, but apparently you do?

I just find it strange that, as an example, in a field of 40 players where younhave 1 cat 1, 2 high cat 2s and 37 cat 3&4 players anyone would think it sensible to chuck in a gross prize. Clearly I'm alone in this view.
		
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My original post referred to the thoughts and opinions of *one *player and not what we do at our club.

With regard to your field cat dispersion. I have recently done a review of our divisions and most competitions we were Division 1 heavy rather than the other way round. One comp had 40 + players in division 1 and just 8 in Division 3.


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## jim8flog (Mar 2, 2018)

Best gross prize -

I would put forward the view of the best player at our club. 

He enters every weekend comp that he can but his view is that he is very unlikely to win the nett comp but he goes in with the hope of winning the best gross prize and a near virtual certainty the he will win twos money. (he has been known to frequently score a 2 on a particular par 4)


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## garyinderry (Mar 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I understand where you are coming from; I believe that one element of your concern results from behaviour driven by the current system - this should change over time (pretty quickly really).

The underlying element applies to every system - the WHS has taken the protection (against this) brought into the USGA system to the next level, after which the committee has responsibility as previously.
		
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The current system has the option to grind out a score to try and avoid a 0.1 .  These types of players are only interested in wins or nice cuts.  The threat of a rising handicap only leads to a better chance of winning so they won't be particularly worried about that.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 2, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, I thought the system was to produced a level playing field.
		
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Actually it doesn't. How many cat 1 golfers come in with net 62 or below? Yet almost every medal you get a higher handicap coming in with a result like this. I played an open last season with a 17 handicap how had a gross 78!


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## duncan mackie (Mar 2, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Actually it doesn't. How many cat 1 golfers come in with net 62 or below? Yet almost every medal you get a higher handicap coming in with a result like this. I played an open last season with a 17 handicap how had a gross 78!
		
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It really does depend where you play - both the nature of the course and the incidence of beginners/rapidly improving golfers.

As posted above, 18 holes of golf isn't enough to smooth even the normal distribution curve of the average golfer.


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## rulefan (Mar 2, 2018)

How many cat 1s are in the field?
How many high cappers? If you mean higher than average then 50% I reckon.

From CONGU

The analysis covers 750 club handicap competitions reported in the months May to September. The competitions selected had a minimum field size of 75 competitors.
â€¢ All competitions were evaluated as â€˜openâ€™ i.e. there was one overall winner of the competition irrespective of handicap.
â€¢ The winners of the 750 competitions were grouped into the four handicap categories. 

â€¢ When the distribution of winners by handicap category is related to their representation in the field, all handicap categories win in reasonable proportion to their entry i.e. Category 1 and Category 3 players typically comprise 8% and 40% of a
club competition and in a â€˜single classâ€™ competition win 10% and 38% of the time.
â€¢ This would suggest that handicapping is acceptably fair and equitable throughout the handicap range.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

I had this explained to me for first time at the weekend,  blimey - what a change.  The way it was describes means that I won't have a handicap as such - but will have one based upon the best 8 of last 20 rounds played, and then adjusted for the course I am to play based upon it's Slope Rating.

Hmmm.  Can see my handicap fluctuating quite a bit.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had this explained to me for first time at the weekend,  blimey - what a change.  The way it was describes means that I won't have a handicap as such - but will have one based upon the best 8 of last 20 rounds played, and then adjusted for the course I am to play based upon it's Slope Rating.

Hmmm.  Can see my handicap fluctuating quite a bit.
		
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Yes you will have a handicap - it will be called your Handicap Index and is the equivalent of your current Exact Handicap. This will change as the make-up of your best 8 from 20 changes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 8, 2018)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Yes you will have a handicap - it will be called your Handicap Index and is the equivalent of your current Exact Handicap. This will change as the make-up of your best 8 from 20 changes.
		
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Does it not also get changed according to the Slope rating of the course you are about to play?  So that if I find myself playing a course with a low course rating my handicap will go up - and vice versa - and indeed my handicap around my 'home' course may very well be different to my Handicap Index?


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## Capella (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does it not also get changed according to the Slope rating of the course you are about to play?  So that if I find myself playing a course with a low course rating my handicap will go up - and vice versa - and indeed my handicap around my 'home' course may very well be different to my Handicap Index?
		
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Yup, that's basically how it works. Like in the EGA system now, you have a handicap index, a kind of baseline, and then a playing handicap for each course (or rather each set of tees) you play. The difference can be quite severe, especially for higher handicappers. For example, my handicap index is -32.5 at the moment, but at my home course I play off -37.  So your handicap is lower for an easier course and higher for a harder one. Normally you find a table in the pro shop or on the score card of courses which have the CR, SL rating, telling you what your playing handicap is according to your handicap index. Or you can calculate it with a formula (which I am too lazy to look up right now, but it is not overly complicated)


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## mikejohnchapman (May 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does it not also get changed according to the Slope rating of the course you are about to play?  So that if I find myself playing a course with a low course rating my handicap will go up - and vice versa - and indeed my handicap around my 'home' course may very well be different to my Handicap Index?
		
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Yes when you play off a specific set of tees they will have a slope rating. You use your Handicap Index to calculate your Playing Handicap for that set of tees.

So you will have a different Playing Handicap for each set of tees on your course - could be higher of lower depending on rating.


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## HughJars (May 9, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Actually it doesn't. How many cat 1 golfers come in with net 62 or below? Yet almost every medal you get a higher handicap coming in with a result like this. I played an open last season with a 17 handicap how had a gross 78!
		
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I'm sorry, but it does. Results analysed by the SGU
/CONGU and they show the lower the handicap, the more likely you are to win the medal. Yes less really freakish results, but equally when the weather isn't perfect it's almost always a low guy that cracks it on the day.

https://www.scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Myths-and-Misconceptions1.pdf


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## Fish (May 9, 2018)

Capella said:



			Yup, that's basically how it works. Like in the EGA system now, you have a handicap index, a kind of baseline, and then a playing handicap for each course (or rather each set of tees) you play. The difference can be quite severe, especially for higher handicappers. For example, my handicap index is -32.5 at the moment, but at my home course I play off -37.  So your handicap is lower for an easier course and higher for a harder one. Normally you find a table in the pro shop or on the score card of courses which have the CR, SL rating, telling you what your playing handicap is according to your handicap index. Or you can calculate it with a formula (which I am too lazy to look up right now, but it is not overly complicated)
		
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The one question I failed to ask or heard mentioned when I went to a workshop presentation with the R&A and USGA, was, how will it all start?

Will we all have to put 3 cards in again to get a baseline new handicap or will we be simply -16 etc based on our existing handicap and then once 20 rounds have been played, start to see the movements as they analyse 8 from them, or.......


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## nickjdavis (May 9, 2018)

Fish said:



			The one question I failed to ask or heard mentioned when I went to a workshop presentation with the R&A and USGA, was, how will it all start?

Will we all have to put 3 cards in again to get a baseline new handicap or will we be simply -16 etc based on our existing handicap and then once 20 rounds have been played, start to see the movements as they analyse 8 from them, or.......
		
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I went to a workshop a couple of weeks ago....basically they will use your existing last 20 scores at the "end of 2019" to determine your starting index under the new system based on the best 8 of those 20.


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## Fish (May 9, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			I went to a workshop a couple of weeks ago....basically they will use your existing last 20 scores at the "end of 2019" to determine your starting index under the new system based on the best 8 of those 20.
		
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Thanks, that'll get me a few more shots :smirk:


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## fundy (May 9, 2018)

Fish said:



			Thanks, that'll get me a few more shots :smirk:
		
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youve already decided what youre gonna score at the end of 2019


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## HughJars (May 9, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			I went to a workshop a couple of weeks ago....basically they will use your existing last 20 scores at the "end of 2019" to determine your starting index under the new system based on the best 8 of those 20.
		
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Oh dear, so basically the US system with a tweak or two. Social games count? gtf with that nonsense. 

The Congu system is far better than this, but you just knew the USGA would hold sway. Disappointing to say the least


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## pinberry (May 9, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh dear, so basically the US system with a tweak or two. Social games count? gtf with that nonsense. 

The Congu system is far better than this, but you just knew the USGA would hold sway. Disappointing to say the least
		
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Social games are social games, you are not forced to enter a score. You can still go out and play with your mates without keeping a score etc. This new system just gives you the possibility of entering a qualifying score outside of competitions, which is what CONGU allows already. A lot of fuss for nothing


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## nickjdavis (May 9, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh dear, so basically the US system with a tweak or two. Social games count? gtf with that nonsense. 

The Congu system is far better than this, but you just knew the USGA would hold sway. Disappointing to say the least
		
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Absolutely not.

Social games will not be included as a "mandatory" requirement. Neither will 4BBB, matchplay or other forms of non singles competition golf. Whatever you've heard (folks in general....not you specifically) about being able to submit a score where "gimme's" are given or "estimating what your score might have been had you not picked up"....its wrong. Scores that count for handicap purposes must be played under competition conditions.

The WHS is being developed to take into consideration the needs of all SIX current handicapping authorities around the world....from the US's prevalent "social golf" needs, the Australians predominantly 4BBB formats to the UK's "competition needs". Various aspects from each of the systems will be incorporated into the new WHS. It is clear from the presentation that was given that the EGU has had a loud voice when representing the needs/concerns of UK golfers during the development of the system.

If anything....the new system is closest to what the Australians use, rather than the Americans, and as I understood it from the EGU presentation, the Australians will be implementing the WHS towards the end of 2018 as it is sol close to the system they currently use.


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## Old Skier (May 9, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh dear, so basically the US system with a tweak or two. Social games count? gtf with that nonsense. 

The Congu system is far better than this, but you just knew the USGA would hold sway. Disappointing to say the least
		
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More based around the Australian system which is why they will fully implement it next year  and not 2020 like us, and when in 2020 may be a movable feast.

Untill the R&A rule on exactly what "Competion Golf" actually means what cards are automatically accepted/used is still a grey area but as to social golf, players will have the option at any course to nominate that round as a counting card in the same way as supplementary cards must be nominated now.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 9, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			Absolutely not.

Social games will not be included as a "mandatory" requirement. Neither will 4BBB, matchplay or other forms of non singles competition golf. Whatever you've heard (folks in general....not you specifically) about being able to submit a score where "gimme's" are given or "estimating what your score might have been had you not picked up"....its wrong. Scores that count for handicap purposes must be played under competition conditions.

The WHS is being developed to take into consideration the needs of all SIX current handicapping authorities around the world....from the US's prevalent "social golf" needs, the Australians predominantly 4BBB formats to the UK's "competition needs". Various aspects from each of the systems will be incorporated into the new WHS. It is clear from the presentation that was given that the EGU has had a loud voice when representing the needs/concerns of UK golfers during the development of the system.

If anything....the new system is closest to what the Australians use, rather than the Americans, and as I understood it from the EGU presentation, the Australians will be implementing the WHS towards the end of 2018 as it is sol close to the system they currently use.
		
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The key is that only Appropriate Scores will count. However, all these need to be registered PRIOR to play. Thus a social game, played over a measured course under normal competitive conditions can count in the same way a supplementary score counts today.

As has been said - must be singles based.


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## SGC001 (May 10, 2018)

Sandbaggers paradise, ideas like appropriate tees with percentage of handicaps, slope rating and bogey rating have so much potential but 8 of 20 is too open to abuse.


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## HughJars (May 10, 2018)

Thank you all for the corrections above




SGC001 said:



			Sandbaggers paradise, ideas like appropriate tees with percentage of handicaps, slope rating and bogey rating have so much potential but 8 of 20 is too open to abuse.
		
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Got to agree with this as well, your handicap could should up dramatically and quickly under this system. As I don't play at all usually Oct-Mar, I tend to start season slowly, I can see me rocketing up by the start of June every year under this system.


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## NWJocko (May 10, 2018)

SGC001 said:



			Sandbaggers paradise, ideas like appropriate tees with percentage of handicaps, slope rating and bogey rating have so much potential but 8 of 20 is too open to abuse.
		
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If you read a bit more about it there's a constraint in the calculation based around you're lowest handicap in last 12 months (I think) to avoid this type of "management" of handicaps :thup:

Played with a mate from Oz recently who explained it, tbh not going to be too much difference in terms of what cards are used for handicapping, just the Slope adjustments etc will be the big change rather than SSS (although most people tend not to look at SSS rather than par when playing away)


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## nickjdavis (May 10, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Thank you all for the corrections above



Got to agree with this as well, your handicap could should *up dramatically and quickly under this system*. As I don't play at all usually Oct-Mar, I tend to start season slowly, I can see me rocketing up by the start of June every year under this system.
		
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No it wont. I've done some analysis on players at my club looking at their last 7 years scores...I've looked at rapidly improving players as well as players who struggle to play to their CONGU handicap on a regular  (almost never, in one guys case) basis and, whilst there are differences between their "Handicap Index" as calculated on an 8 from 20 basis and their CONGU handicap, there is a lot less variation than you might think.

As NW Jocko states, there is a limitation in the system that prevents a players handicap index from rising more than 5 shots above its lowest level during the previous 12 calendar months.


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## nickjdavis (May 10, 2018)

The only time the system delivers significant swings in a players index is when he has previously submitted a "batch" of very good scores in quick succession....say 8 good scores in 12 rounds or so.....if he then goes on a run of bad form then it wont be his bad rounds that drive his handicap up immediately....it will be the 8 good ones dropping out of his last 20 rounds in quick succession and being replaced by less good rounds (not necessarily all of the "bad" rounds) that sit within the last 20. 

If a player "starts the season slowly" then his poor rounds in the spring wont contribute to his handicap index....it will still be his last years "autumn" rounds...until they start dropping off...by which time it is likely that his spring form will have improved somewhat!!


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## SGC001 (May 10, 2018)

NWJocko said:



			If you read a bit more about it there's a constraint in the calculation based around you're lowest handicap in last 12 months (I think) to avoid this type of "management" of handicaps :thup:

Played with a mate from Oz recently who explained it, tbh not going to be too much difference in terms of what cards are used for handicapping, just the Slope adjustments etc will be the big change rather than SSS (although most people tend not to look at SSS rather than par when playing away)
		
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I"m aware, imo the constants no way near enough to deal with the issue of sandbagging. I've known people openly admit to handicap manipulation and they'll love it.

Edit
They tend be very cute and aware of their handicap. The ability to move a handicao up or down in the current system requires a playing ability better than they move it down to. This change allows for comparatively fast manipulations


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## Crazyface (May 10, 2018)

SGC001 said:



			Sandbaggers paradise, ideas like appropriate tees with percentage of handicaps, slope rating and bogey rating have so much potential but 8 of 20 is too open to abuse.
		
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But it is the BEST 8 from 20, isn't it? So how will that help the dodgy players?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			But it is the BEST 8 from 20, isn't it? So how will that help the dodgy players?
		
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I guess that if a round I am playing looks like it will become one of my best 8 out of 20 and will bring my h/cap down - but won't be good enough to win anything on the day - I might just NR or 'blow up' to make sure it doesn't count (if I don;t want my h/cap to go down).  Mind you I think I'd have to be remembering what my current 9th best is of my current 20.  Don't know that it would be worth it...


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## HughJars (May 10, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			But it is the BEST 8 from 20, isn't it? So how will that help the dodgy players?
		
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Fair point. I'm not thinking this through very well. I guess it's such a huge theoretical change that I'm expecting huge variances whereas in reality maybe not.  Good to see someone (well done nickjdavis) has even taken the time to model this. Be intersting to see how it works at my club, current handicap secretary is effing useless as it is.


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## SGC001 (May 10, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			But it is the BEST 8 from 20, isn't it? So how will that help the dodgy players?
		
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Not wanting to win or if non competitive counts just score badly.
Got a couple of good scores u want to lose put some bad scores in. Simples and quick

Edit aware r knocking out your 20th round ago, u just put up a few bad rounds until u move the ones u want out


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## NWJocko (May 10, 2018)

SGC001 said:



			Not wanting to win or if non competitive counts just score badly.
Got a couple of good scores u want to lose put some bad scores in. Simples and quick

Edit aware r knocking out your 20th round ago, u just put up a few bad rounds until u move the ones u want out
		
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But in the UK the rounds that are to count towards it are going to be the same as now (i.e. comps or supplementary scores).

So its going to be pretty easy (easier perhaps) to spot the trend of people banging in a load of supplementary scores to get a hike up I would have thought?


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## SGC001 (May 10, 2018)

What can be done about it? Nothing can be done about it now, nothing will in the future, but it'll be easier and quicker to move your handicap up or keep it up. 
The odd outlier will be the occasional lower one, with most lower ones coming in team or non qualifying events (as now).
The more opportuntity to put in bad cards (i.e what will count as qualifying the better such as will u be able to do 5 supplementary cards a week in future?) the easier to maintain and hide if u just put in bad scores reguarly.

At least with congu if u had a good one or got caught and adjusted (e.g matchplay adjustments) it took time to get back.

Edit even if Q scorecards to count remain the same a moving average of best 8 from 20 is easier to move than 0.1 a time.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 10, 2018)

SGC001 said:



			What can be done about it? Nothing can be done about it now, nothing will in the future, but it'll be easier and quicker to move your handicap up or keep it up. 
The odd outlier will be the occasional lower one, with most lower ones coming in team or non qualifying events (as now).
The more opportuntity to put in bad cards (i.e what will count as qualifying the better such as will u be able to do 5 supplementary cards a week in future?) the easier to maintain and hide if u just put in bad scores reguarly.

At least with congu if u had a good one or got caught and adjusted (e.g matchplay adjustments) it took time to get back.

Edit even if Q scorecards to count remain the same a moving average of best 8 from 20 is easier to move than 0.1 a time.
		
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Well the provision for general play reductions will still exist even if the periodic reviews won't.

If you play in Opens / Societies that don't normally calculate a CSS you will be encouraged to enter these in future into your playing record. No card will  need to be physically returned.

Also there is a realisation that in future versions of the WHS, 4 ball competitions will be included in the players record. 

Are there people who are going to manipulate the system to try to win prizes - yes (as they do now). It will be much easier for Handicap Committees to ask why a round wasn't registered and returned.

As with the new rules - if you want to cheat, your fellow golfers you can.


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## Jamesbrown (May 10, 2018)

SGC001 said:



			What can be done about it? Nothing can be done about it now, nothing will in the future, but it'll be easier and quicker to move your handicap up or keep it up. 
The odd outlier will be the occasional lower one, with most lower ones coming in team or non qualifying events (as now).
The more opportuntity to put in bad cards (i.e what will count as qualifying the better such as will u be able to do 5 supplementary cards a week in future?) the easier to maintain and hide if u just put in bad scores reguarly.

At least with congu if u had a good one or got caught and adjusted (e.g matchplay adjustments) it took time to get back.

Edit even if Q scorecards to count remain the same a moving average of best 8 from 20 is easier to move than 0.1 a time.
		
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Theres algorithms in place to stop a massive increase in handicap. Like an index buffer zone. Itâ€™ll still take along time.


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## nickjdavis (May 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I guess that if a round I am playing looks like it will become one of my best 8 out of 20 and will bring my h/cap down - but won't be good enough to win anything on the day - I might just NR or 'blow up' to make sure it doesn't count (if I don;t want my h/cap to go down).  Mind you I think I'd have to be remembering what my current 9th best is of my current 20.  Don't know that it would be worth it...
		
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you can blow up all you want but the bad holes will still be "adjusted" to NETT double bogey just as they are today....so you might not be able to convert that score that was going to be "level handicap" to much worse than three or four over (unless you are blowing loads of holes....in which case it probably wasn't going to contribute anyway)....sure it might not then count as one of your best 8....but it may count at a later date and kick out a score of maybe 8 or 9 over handicap.

One other thing that you (the wider GM community here) may not be aware of is that handicapping under the new scheme of things will be separated from competitions.

You may play in a competition which may get processed by your Comps Committee on the day (for the purposes of deciding "winners")....but the processing of the comp will not generate any handicap adjustments as it does today. 

Handicap adjustments will be made "centrally" within the WHS at the end of the day when all "acceptable scores" have been submitted and the "course condition adjustment" been calculated. (Course Condition Adjustment is what will replace CSS on a daily basis)

Effectively, the day to day mechanism of handicap calculation is being taken out of clubs/local handicap committee's hands and centralized. Don't be over surprised if the centralized system has the ability, down the line, to apply a good bit of computing power and statistical analysis to spot "handicap manipulation scoring trends".


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