# Just when you think America can’t get any crazier…



## Don Barzini (Jun 25, 2022)

…this happens. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61933814

The mind boggles. The USA is supposedly one of the most advanced nations in the world and then they take a backward step fifty years into the past. 

Those poor women who will be affected by this. The phrase “crazy bloody Yanks” has never seemed more appropriate than now.

And they’ve gone and relaxed their gun laws as well. What the hell is going on?!


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2022)

Don Barzini said:



			…this happens. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61933814

The mind boggles. The USA is supposedly one of the most advanced nations in the world and then they take a backward step fifty years into the past. 

Those poor women who will be affected by this. The phrase “crazy bloody Yanks” has never seemed more appropriate than now.

And they’ve gone and relaxed their gun laws as well. What the hell is going on?!
		
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It seems to me that it's the church community people who were on the news last night who were the most vociferous in bringing this about. It's like going back to the stone age imo!


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## oxymoron (Jun 25, 2022)

So much for "The land of the free" , cant get access to abortion but almost comical access to assault rifles ,it beggars belief  .

So much reminds me of The Handmaids Tale series.


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## cliveb (Jun 25, 2022)

They'll be burning witches next.

While watching Brian Cox's documentary about the Mars rover, it struck me that there are some unbelievably clever scientists and engineers in the USA and it made me realise that the gap between intelligent and stupid seems to be higher in the USA than anywhere else on the planet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2022)

oxymoron said:



			So much for "The land of the free" , cant get access to abortion but almost comical access to assault rifles ,it beggars belief  .

So much reminds me of The Handmaids Tale series.
		
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Worrying for me is that this, and the right wing Evangelical Christianity of too many of the Supreme Court, takes the US down a route that could end in ‘Blessed be the Fruit’


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 25, 2022)

cliveb said:



			They'll be burning witches next.

While watching Brian Cox's documentary about the Mars rover, it struck me that there are some unbelievably clever scientists and engineers in the USA and it made me realise that the gap between intelligent and stupid seems to be higher in the USA than anywhere else on the planet.
		
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This exactly. You begin to see it in this Country too. "Thinking with your hormones" instead of your brain is how I describe it. We are beginning a journey back to the 17th century.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 25, 2022)

Reading the BBC website it seems like this might be just the first step for the Republicans with talk already of a Federal law preventing Abortions in ANY state, and then looking at same sex marriages. 

The place really is a mess, this from the writer of the article…America today feels like one country that contains two very separate nations, inhabited by two tribes that have completely different values, beliefs and goals. Now, they have just moved farther apart. ☹️


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## JamesR (Jun 25, 2022)

I always think that the Yanks are very much like us, except it’s still a new country. They’re more like us a few centuries ago. 
Emotionally, politically, religiously etc immature.
They still enjoy a war & allow religion to rule politics.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2022)

Sadly, a consequence of the decision will see back street, unregulated abortions.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 25, 2022)

So even if someone is raped they’re not aloud an abortion 🤯
What a crazy country that is.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 25, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			So even if someone is raped they’re not aloud an abortion 🤯
What a crazy country that is.
		
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Even if it’s incest abortion is not allowed!

It’s the rise of the Christian Fundamentalists, they have taken over the Republican Party. Who knows where it will end?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 25, 2022)

It's complete madness and scary what this could lead to on so many levels. 

In the same country you can pay $38 online and become ordained and marry couples!

I know this as my brother-in-law did just that and legally performed the marriage of his daughter and her fiance. Long story but true!


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2022)

I don't like abortion one bit. It makes my skin crawl. So I would apply that view if a situation arose with my female partner (the chance of which has long since passed). Abortion available in every NHS facility is no concern to me or my partner, because we can freely choose not to go there.

But I do not think I have any right to tell someone else how they should behave. That is the problem with evangelism, sticking your views into other peoples' lives, and it makes the idea of the US being the land of the free laughable. 

The true context for this decision was revealed by Clarence Thomas, the well-known Christian and sexual predator on the SCOTUS. He has declared that it is now time to also overturn contraception and same-sex legislation too. This is clearly a right wing [redacted] strategy and has been a long time in the making. The idea of States Rights harks back to segregation and is a dog whistle for racism and prejudice.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

A few points might be worth noting before going OTT on this decision. All my own understanding/work, so there may faults in it. 
1. Roe v Wade, the ruling that has been overridden, was always something of an iffy interpretation of the constitution anyway. It associated the 'right to privacy' to a women's right to abort. It doesn't make abortion illegal, just removes the ruling that it is constitutionally 'legal' - like the right to bear arms is.
2. Consequently to 1, this ruling only affects Federal law. With its absence/removal, individual States can make their own rules as to whether, and under what circumstances, abortions can take place. That's simply how While those in the, so called, Bible Belt are likely to impose severe restrictions - and even have legislation ready to be approved - others will continue to allow abortions as now, though that imposes significant costs on 'out of state' cases.
3. While Trump appointed 3 of the justices in his term, making a 6-3 majority of Republican v Democrat appointees, the 7-2 decision indicates it wasn't purely along party lines.
4. Some states have laws triggered by the ruling that have a reasonable 'lag' time (e.g. 15 weeks), while others, either deliberately or ridiculously, have one less than that where a woman is likely to realise she is pregnant.

The great late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg put it perfectly in an interview with BBC saying 'No women of means will ever lack access to abortion in the United States...so the brunt of all these restrictive laws is on poor women'!


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			A few points might be worth noting before going OTT on this decision. All my own understanding/work, so there may faults in it.
1. Roe v Wade, the ruling that has been overridden, was always something of an iffy interpretation of the constitution anyway. It associated the 'right to privacy' to a women's right to abort. It doesn't make abortion illegal, just removes the ruling that it is constitutionally 'legal' - like the right to bear arms is.
2. Consequently to 1, this ruling only affects Federal law. With its absence/removal, individual States can make their own rules as to whether, and under what circumstances, abortions can take place. That's simply how While those in the, so called, Bible Belt are likely to impose severe restrictions - and even have legislation ready to be approved - others will continue to allow abortions as now, though that imposes significant costs on 'out of state' cases.
3. While Trump appointed 3 of the justices in his term, making a 6-3 majority of Republican v Democrat appointees, the 7-2 decision indicates it wasn't purely along party lines.
4. Some states have laws triggered by the ruling that have a reasonable 'lag' time (e.g. 15 weeks), while others, either deliberately or ridiculously, have one less than that where a woman is likely to realise she is pregnant.

The great late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg put it perfectly in an interview with BBC saying 'No women of means will ever lack access to abortion in the United States...so the brunt of all these restrictive laws is on poor women'!
		
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1. The case has been examined by previous SCOTUS and repeatedly reaffirmed. It is hard to believe it was fundamentally flawed as Alito described it, and this was not previously detected. The true context has been revealed by Thomas, a proposal to overturn contraception and same-sex decisions too, in a full-on right wing cultural shift.
2. States Rights is the cover for old school prejudice and racism, and the redneck states are going for this big time. Some others, like Ohio are following, unfortunately.
3. The vote to overturn was 6-3. The original Roe vs Wade was 7-2.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2022)

I’ll preempt the usual gross and ill-informed generalisations to note that very many Christians in the US will be utterly appalled that this is being done - and will reject completely that it is being done according to any idea of widely accepted religious and Christian principles.  It isn’t.  And the same will apply for Christians across the world who are equally appalled.


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## Voyager EMH (Jun 25, 2022)

The Handmaid's Tale was written in 1985. It portrays a possible future should some views in the USA gain prevalence.

Welcome to the future.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			1. The case has been examined by previous SCOTUS and repeatedly reaffirmed. It is hard to believe it was fundamentally flawed as Alito described it, and this was not previously detected. The true context has been revealed by Thomas, a proposal to overturn contraception and same-sex decisions too, in a full-on right wing cultural shift.
2. States Rights is the cover for old school prejudice and racism, and the redneck states are going for this big time. Some others, like Ohio are following, unfortunately.
3. The vote to overturn was 6-3. The original Roe vs Wade was 7-2.
		
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Ah! A glitch in my numbers According to CNBC, the vote was 5-4, so Trump's appointments DID seem to have an influence (even with a 'deserter'). Previous 'reviews' were likely swayed by RBG's powerful argument(s) and her vote would have made the difference here. My view is that the SC appointment process is fundamentally flawed and appointments should be apolitical. But that's not going to happen any time soon!
I'm iffy about your point 2. To me, it's simply a consequence of US style democracy.


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## stefanovic (Jun 25, 2022)

How old are you really?
Your official age + 9 months.

That's what many Christians believe. Your life started at the moment of conception. 

Abortion happens quite naturally and the mother isn't aware of it means that if the world's population was never controlled this way the human race would have died out about 200,000 years ago.
Biologically it's called Darwinism, the adversary of all religious beliefs.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
Abortion happens quite naturally and the mother isn't aware of it means that if the world's population was never controlled this way the human race would have died out about 200,000 years ago.
		
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You'll need to explain that better to avoid it simply being categorised as your usual tosh!


stefanovic said:



			...
Biologically it's called Darwinism, the adversary of *all* religious beliefs.
		
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Certainly of some. But not incompatible with others!


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## stefanovic (Jun 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You'll need to explain that better to avoid it simply being categorised as your usual tosh!
		
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I'll take it that you do not understand or can't be bothered to understand evolutionary biology.
Take a break to read Richard Dawkins (Darwin's rottweiler).




			Certainly of some. But not incompatible with others!
		
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So let's hear what Darwinism has in common with any theological belief whatsoever.

American evangelists are a great example of why Christianity is total fiction.
Based on their 'Holy Bible' they make things up solely to promote their presumed authority.
They interpret a passage in Genesis (other books available) to mean that abortion is evil in god's eyes when the Bible makes no reference to it.
By contrast, the 'Good Book' never condemns slavery, so Americans took that to mean it was perfectly acceptable to take slaves.


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I'll take it that you do not understand or can't be bothered to understand evolutionary biology.
Take a break to read Richard Dawkins (Darwin's rottweiler).
...
		
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Been there, done some of that - many years ago!
Dawkins and Darwin are not mutually exclusive imo. And there are other 'forces' involved too.
And you still haven explained how 'Abortion happens quite naturally and the mother isn't aware of it...'!



stefanovic said:



			...
American evangelists are a great example of why *Christianity* is total fiction.
Based on their 'Holy Bible' they make things up solely to promote their presumed authority.
They interpret a passage in *Genesis* (other books available) to mean that abortion is evil in god's eyes when the Bible makes no reference to it.
By contrast, the 'Good Book' never condemns slavery, so Americans took that to mean it was perfectly acceptable to take slaves.
		
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While happy to use The Old Testament as a source of selected morality, It's only The New Testament that's truly 'Gospel' to most *Christ*ians - thus the name! Enslavement of defeated opponents was an acceptable result of conflicts in OT days and even more recently (Vikings for example). Civilisation has evolved since. Slavery in US simply demonstrates that 'folk' will continue to make interpretations to serve their own benefit.
As for evangelists - American or otherwise - their distortion of words/phrases, that have been translated multiple times, rates at the same level as politicians, diplomats, 'used car salesmen' and the like! They are simply aggressive transmitters of 'mind viruses' imo!


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 25, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Even if it’s incest abortion is not allowed!

It’s the rise of the Christian Fundamentalists, they have taken over the Republican Party. Who knows where it will end?
		
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Well Islamic fundamentalism tends to cause radicalisation and terrorism so I can’t see it ending well ☹️


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 25, 2022)

I’ve traveled a reasonable bit in America and I’ve come to the conclusion that what they do well they do better than anywhere else in the world that I’ve seen. Unfortunately I’ve also come to the conclusion that what they do badly they do worse than anywhere else in the world that I’ve seen, and by some distance. It is a land of extremes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2022)

......and some factions of Western culture are appalled at the actions of the Taliban.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 25, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I'll take it that you do not understand or can't be bothered to understand evolutionary biology.
Take a break to read Richard Dawkins (Darwin's rottweiler).


So let's hear what Darwinism has in common with any theological belief whatsoever.

American evangelists are a great example of why Christianity is total fiction.
Based on their 'Holy Bible' they make things up solely to promote their presumed authority.
They interpret a passage in Genesis (other books available) to mean that abortion is evil in god's eyes when the Bible makes no reference to it.
By contrast, the 'Good Book' never condemns slavery, so Americans took that to mean it was perfectly acceptable to take slaves.
		
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You know darned well that no one here is suddenly going to wade through Dawkins'
books on evolutionary biology in order to understand exactly what  you are saying. Stop trying to impress that you are aware,  and we are ignorant (of what you are saying, ), and just answer the man. Expand on that sentence and enlighten us (briefly!)😀


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You know darned well that no one here is suddenly going to wade through Dawkins'
books on evolutionary biology in order to understand exactly what  you are saying. Stop trying to impress that you are aware,  and we are ignorant (of what you are saying, ), and just answer the man. Expand on that sentence and enlighten us (briefly!)😀
		
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Ah! But I DID have some knowledge of RD! But, typically, it doesn't bear much relationship to my question, so is just another 'Stefanovic tangent'!
FWIW, Dawkins challenges Darwin's Theory of Evolution and is a critic of Creationism.


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## cliveb (Jun 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW, Dawkins challenges Darwin's Theory of Evolution and is a critic of Creationism.
		
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He is certainly a vociferous critic of creationism, but to hear him described as challenging Darwin is news to me. When did he ever do that? He always struck me as what you might call a "Darwinian fundamentalist".


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

cliveb said:



			He is certainly a vociferous critic of creationism, but to hear him described as challenging Darwin is news to me. When did he ever do that? He always struck me as what you might call a "Darwinian fundamentalist".
		
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I simply associate Dawkins's 'genetic' model, compared to Darwin's 'environmental' one, as the cause of the Darwinian differences that produce the different 'candidates for survival'.
But I may be completely wrong as many years ago and I was 'happy' with Darwin's explanation, so possibly looked for confirmation cf a fundamentally different theory.
So 'challenge' was probably the wrong word to use.


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## cliveb (Jun 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I simply associate Dawkins's 'genetic' model, compared to Darwin's 'environmental' one, as the cause of the Darwinian differences that produce the different 'candidates for survival'.
But I may be completely wrong as many years ago and I was 'happy' with Darwin's explanation, so possibly looked for confirmation cf a fundamentally different theory.
So 'challenge' was probably the wrong word to use.
		
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The environment is the actor which decides which mutations are selected, and Darwin recognized this. Dawkins also understands this. The only thing that separates them is that Dawkins also knows about genetics, which was discovered after Darwin's time and is the mechanism which produces the mutations on which the environment acts.

I don't think Darwin ever believed that the environment was the cause of the mutations. That is the Lamarkian model. As far as I'm aware, Darwin accepted that the mechanism which caused the mutations was unknown at the time.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

cliveb said:



			The environment is the actor which decides which mutations are selected, and Darwin recognized this. Dawkins also understands this. The only thing that separates them is that Dawkins also knows about genetics, which was discovered after Darwin's time and is the mechanism which produces the mutations on which the environment acts.

I don't think Darwin ever believed that the environment was the cause of the mutations. That is the Lamarkian model. As far as I'm aware, Darwin accepted that the mechanism which caused the mutations was unknown at the time.
		
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Didn't Lamark specify that it was the aberrations in reproductive glands that defined the mutations?
They all seem inter-related/similar to me - as opposed to the Creationist/Genesis model, that I don't give credence to.
I also don't have a problem with anti-abortionists - except if they insist that everyone should comply with their view!


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## Brads (Jun 26, 2022)

I’m sure the Americans think we couldn’t be any crazier as well.
Me ? I’d live there if I had the opportunity .


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## cliveb (Jun 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Didn't Lamark specify that it was the aberrations in reproductive glands that defined the mutations?
		
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Lamarkian evolution is the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
For example, if an athlete develops strong muscles and stamina through rigorous training, those strong muscles and stamina are passed on to their children.

Your comments about reproductive glands might be something to do with Darwin's "pangenesis" hypothesis. He was speculating about possible mechanisms for the variations, and wondered if stuff that happened to the organism might somehow get into the germ cells in order to influence the offspring. So in some ways it was a bit like Lamark's theory. But as far as I'm aware, it was just a shot in the dark. Had Darwin known about genetics, there's no doubt in my mind he would have abandoned pangenesis in a heartbeat.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 26, 2022)

Why has this thread become a cerebral Willy waving contest?


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## IanM (Jun 26, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Why has this thread become a cerebral Willy waving contest?
		
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Sounds like a challenging deformity!


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 26, 2022)

I have no interest in joining an IQ contest. I'm not surprised by the direction the USA is taking, they voted Trump in says enough to me about their mindset.


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## stefanovic (Jun 26, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Been there, done some of that - many years ago!
Dawkins and Darwin are not mutually exclusive imo. And there are *other 'forces*' involved too.
		
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What other forces?



			And you still haven explained how 'Abortion happens quite naturally and the mother isn't aware of it...'!
		
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Read Chapter 1 of Unweaving the Rainbow by Dawkins. Theists keep well away from it I feel sure. Mention it to them and they'll soon change the subject.




			While happy to use The Old Testament as a source of selected morality, It's only The New Testament that's truly 'Gospel' to most *Christ*ians
		
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So the OT is the book of myth and fable, but the NT is where it all comes good!?
Let me tell you this. No man has ever had a ghost (or spirit if you prefer) for a father. No man has ever been virgin born. No man has ever survived death to walk again.
A substantial number of Christians believe in the Biblical creation where everything was assembled (life and the universe) in 6 days.
They believe in Adam and Eve, the Flood and Noah's Ark, the drowning by God of every man, woman and innocent child except for one human family and a breeding pair of every kind of land animal.
Could go on about this book of nonsensical fiction called the Holy Bible which has all been based upon earlier beliefs.

But I'm still asking you to provide a quote (from the OT or NT) which clearly states that removing an unborn from a woman is wrong.


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## IanM (Jun 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			But I'm still asking you to provide a quote (from the OT or NT) which clearly states that removing an unborn from a woman is wrong.
		
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I would assume that the bit about murder in the 10 Commandments covers that.  I also assume abortion wouldn't be specifically mentioned as it didn't exist ar the time of writing!

Of course that opens discussion about when "life" starts... 

I don't have a position on this subject. 

It would be better of it didn't happen, but I understand where it might be necessary.


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## stefanovic (Jun 26, 2022)

IanM said:



			I would assume that the bit about murder in the 10 Commandments covers that.
		
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The Bible is full of passages which incite murder, and not just homosexuals and witches.

I'll do a bit of cherry-picking from Exodus: “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death."

That's not very nice is it, and what happened to forgiveness?


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			The Bible is full of passages which incite murder, and not just homosexuals and witches.

I'll do a bit of cherry-picking from Exodus: “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death."

That's not very nice is it, and what happened to forgiveness?
		
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You don't even have to do that.
I'll raise you

Deuteronomy 21:20-21
“This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death


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## Wilson (Jun 26, 2022)

It’s an unbelievable step backwards, and the hypocrisy of those who say their guns can’t be taken away, but are happy to take away the rights of women! I fear this is a slippery slope with same sex marriage on the radar.

I’m not religious, and my general view is I have nothing against those that are religious, if it brings joy to people’s lives then crack on, but when it’s used as an excuse to push archaic ideas, it’s too far.

I also suspect there is an element of racism in the decision, (not a surprise for the States!)….. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540864472654532611


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
So the OT is the book of myth and fable, but the NT is where it all comes good!?
Let me tell you this. No man has ever had a ghost (or spirit if you prefer) for a father. *No man has ever been virgin born.* _No man has ever survived death to walk again._

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There are 'natural' explanations for both the bold and italicised bits. The other is a matter of faith, which anyone is welcome to believe in or not, likewise their belief in Genesis which, I'm selective/sceptical about . The Flood/Ark *could* have happened - but with the 'passengers' and effects limited to 'the known world'. As stated earlier, I'm not an OT adherent. Nor, actually a Christian. But, having spent some time with Pentecostalists, have observed some pretty peculiar phenomena.


stefanovic said:



			...
But I'm still asking you to provide a quote (from the OT or NT) which clearly states that removing an unborn from a woman is wrong.
		
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Not something to direct to me. I'm not anti-abortion! The late Justice RBG's view(s) seem spot on for me. I'm not sure whether it's *all* a consequence of Trump or whether Trump's election was simply a (poorly timed imo) consequence of 'natural' ebbs/flows of any country's attitudes.

FWIW, I find the preaching/proselytising of atheists just as 'offensive' as that of extreme Christian preachers!


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## 3offTheTee (Jun 26, 2022)

Will somebody please remind me what The thread title is?
 The England v New Zealand game is absorbing.

Oh I  have gone off track- just like the majority of posts these days!


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Will somebody please remind me what The thread title is?
The England v New Zealand game is absorbing.

Oh I  have gone off track- just like the majority of posts these days!
		
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The USA Supreme Court has basically just made abortion illegal, some say on religious grounds.
Some aren't happy about that


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## IanM (Jun 26, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			The Bible is full of passages which incite murder, and not just homosexuals and witches.

I'll do a bit of cherry-picking from Exodus: “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death."

That's not very nice is it, and what happened to forgiveness?
		
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You said there was no reference to it, I just pointed one out... no evaluation was made by me


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## IanM (Jun 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The USA Supreme Court has basically just made abortion illegal, some say on religious grounds.
Some aren't happy about that
		
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Not sure they have made it illegal...but they have removed an automatic right to it.
(In what I read.  Is that correct? )

However,  the practicalities of that will no doubt emerge in the forthcoming months


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2022)

3offTheTee said:



			Will somebody please remind me what The thread title is?
The England v New Zealand game is absorbing.

Oh I  have gone off track- just like the majority of posts these days!
		
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60-2, finally poised. Should be a good day tomorrow


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2022)

IanM said:



			Not sure they have made it illegal...but they have removed an automatic right to it.
(In what I read.  Is that correct? )

However,  the practicalities of that will no doubt emerge in the forthcoming months
		
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Abortion will not automatically become illegal in the US - but individual states will now be allowed to decide if and how to allow abortions.


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## IanM (Jun 26, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			60-2, finally poised. Should be a good day tomorrow
		
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Blooming Americans!


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## AmandaJR (Jun 26, 2022)

Brads said:



			I’m sure the Americans think we couldn’t be any crazier as well.
Me ? I’d live there if I had the opportunity .
		
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Having spent time yesterday with a number of Americans the general consenus is quite the opposite and they think we're pretty bloody great...and their country is seriously flawed.


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## 3offTheTee (Jun 26, 2022)

IanM said:



			Blooming Americans!

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IanM said:



			Blooming Americans!

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Do they play cricket!


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## Fade and Die (Jun 26, 2022)

Brads said:



			I’m sure the Americans think we couldn’t be any crazier as well.
Me ? I’d live there if I had the opportunity .
		
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Where though, Red or Blue state? Because it seems like two very separate places right now.


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## D-S (Jun 26, 2022)

This just about sums it up and is truly scary

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540852015693037568


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## Brads (Jun 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Where though, Red or Blue state? Because it seems like two very separate places right now.
		
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Red , not that I’m political, simply the places on my list would all likely be republican states.


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## Brads (Jun 27, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Having spent time yesterday with a number of Americans the general consenus is quite the opposite and they think we're pretty bloody great...and their country is seriously flawed.
		
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So democrat voters ?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 27, 2022)

Brads said:



			So democrat voters ?
		
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Pretty much not political rather than genuinely scared where their country is heading...


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Brads said:



			Red , not that I’m political, simply the places on my list would all likely be republican states.
		
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So more likely to get shot then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2022)

Wilson said:



			It’s an unbelievable step backwards, and the hypocrisy of those who say their guns can’t be taken away, but are happy to take away the rights of women! I fear this is a slippery slope with same sex marriage on the radar.

I’m not religious, and my general view is I have nothing against those that are religious, if it brings joy to people’s lives then crack on, but when it’s used as an excuse to push archaic ideas, it’s too far.

I also suspect there is an element of racism in the decision, (not a surprise for the States!)….. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1540864472654532611

Click to expand...

Religion is not ‘simply’ about bringing joy to people’s lives, it’s more about a way of thinking and a way of living for the individual, and how they can contribute to and support others in society.  It is very difficult for very many Christians that some evangelical Biblical literalist denominations choose to interpret out of context writings in books centuries old that were written at different times and in the contexts of their very different times.

When I, and those of my denomination (I cannot speak for other denominations), read or listen to any extract from any of the books of the Bible, I listen *for* the word of God, I do not listen *to* the word of God.  There is a very big difference. That those on the evangelical Christian right in the US choose to take what is written literally and interpret and apply it to support and justify their specific views on any matter is very difficult and indeed upsetting for very many of us having a Christian faith.

Just saying.


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW, I find the preaching/proselytising of atheists just as 'offensive' as that of extreme Christian preachers!
		
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At least atheists don't go door to door telling people/children to accept Jesus or they will burn in hell forever.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 27, 2022)

This is a political thread and I do not understand how it remains open. 🤷‍♂️


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Pretty much not political rather than genuinely scared where their country is heading...
		
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It's been scary for some time!
Any country that decides Ronald Regan or Donald Trump are the best folk to be in charge (and even in charge of the Nuclear button) is seriously flawed!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At least atheists don't go door to door telling people/children to *accept Jesus or they will burn in hell forever.*

Click to expand...

And neither to the majority Christians…only those of certain and specific denominations do that - most obviously JWs.  And most of us also do not believe or preach *this* sort of stuff.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At least atheists don't go door to door telling *people/children* to accept Jesus or they will burn in hell forever.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying children aren't people? 
FWIW. The 'door to door' proselytisers get short shrift from me! I have occasionally invited them in to 'test their faith' wrt Genesis, their particular 'flavour's' peculiarities and the wealth of their organisation, but that got a bit tiresome after a while.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And neither to the majority Christians…only those of certain and specific denominations do that - most obviously JWs.  And most of us also do not believe or preach *this* sort of stuff.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve had many religious door knockers down the years, and liking a good debate I’ve invited many of them in, including JW’s. I’ve never heard the old “burn in hell” phrase. Heard some dubious interpretations and had some great ding-dong sessions with them but never had the “turn to god or else…”


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Are you saying children aren't people? 

Click to expand...

I'm just highlighting that these door to door preachers are quite happy to threaten children as well as adults
Get them while they're young
Proverbs 22:6


Hobbit said:



			I’ve never heard the old “burn in hell” phrase. Heard some dubious interpretations and had some great ding-dong sessions with them but never had the “turn to god or else…”
		
Click to expand...

Mathew 10:28
''And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather *fear him which is* *able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''*


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## Leftitshort (Jun 27, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve had many religious door knockers down the years, and liking a good debate I’ve invited many of them in, including JW’s. I’ve never heard the old “burn in hell” phrase. Heard some dubious interpretations and had some great ding-dong sessions with them but never had the “turn to god or else…”
		
Click to expand...

I heard it from one fella. A born again Christian I used to work with. It wasn’t his religion that was a issue, it was the fact he was a nut job. Religion is a smoke screen, it just gave him and others, as in this case, an excuse to be a bit of a dick


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And neither to the majority Christians…only those of certain and specific denominations do that - most obviously JWs.  And most of us also do not believe or preach *this* sort of stuff.
		
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So I guess you'd class yourself as a 'cultural christian' rather than a 'biblical christian'?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve had many religious door knockers down the years, and liking a good debate I’ve invited many of them in, including JW’s. I’ve never heard the old “burn in hell” phrase. Heard some dubious interpretations and had some great ding-dong sessions with them but never had the “turn to god or else…”
		
Click to expand...

…and I too will often enter into discussion with JWs, challenging their interpretations of various things we can read into biblical text if we so choose.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So I guess you'd class yourself as a 'cultural christian' rather than a 'biblical christian'?
		
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I am not a biblical literalist and I do not need to be one to have a Christian faith.

You can choose your own classifications/categorisations - I have never before heard of your form of ‘discrimination/differentiation’…why not just accept that different denominations have different understandings of what is written, and consider how they draw their understanding, rather than just coming out with a form of differentiation that simply demonstrates your own specific view of religion through use of what I might consider to be an insult (albeit one that I can bear lightly), ignoring completely what it means to have a faith.

btw…would you tell a Muslim who does not believe literally and act accordingly on every word of the Quran that he or she is a ‘cultural Muslim‘…?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 27, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Religion is not ‘simply’ about bringing joy to people’s lives, it’s more about a way of thinking and a way of living for the individual, and how they can contribute to and support others in society.  It is very difficult for very many Christians that some evangelical Biblical literalist denominations choose to interpret out of context writings in books centuries old that were written at different times and in the contexts of their very different times.

When I, and those of my denomination (I cannot speak for other denominations), read or listen to any extract from any of the books of the Bible, I listen *for* the word of God, I do not listen *to* the word of God.  There is a very big difference. That those on the evangelical Christian right in the US choose to take what is written literally and interpret and apply it to support and justify their specific views on any matter is very difficult and indeed upsetting for very many of us having a Christian faith.

Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, religion is about a way of thinking about how you behave etc, but "how they can contribute to and support others in society. " is not an integral part of it.
Sure, in some religions  some individuals do see " how they can contribute to and support others in society. ", but then so do all other decent and civilised citizens of this planet.
What religion has always done is made it a major effort of itself to persuade others to believe as it does, ranging , in the case of Christianity, from the Spanish Inquisition to knocking on doors, and including the making of Laws to enforce their beliefs.
Which is what is happening in U.S at the moment. 
And this Clarence fellow, to whom Ethan refers, is a prime example of religious fervour.
Perhaps, without religion, we may reduce conflict and embrace instead thoughts along these lines. 

"We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.”
Carl Sagan.......

Just saying.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			...
Mathew 10:28
''And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather *fear him which is* *able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''*

Click to expand...

You are doing exactly the same as what I object to when it's done by the 'door to door evangelists' you mention. Quoting a single verse out of context. The whole of the chapter, in this case Matthew 10, should be read, not simply 10:28. Though, given your (and probably my) attitude to Door to Door evangelists, it's unsurprising you choose to quote from that chapter. 
FWIW, I don't find anything objectionable in that verse, though there is some perhaps 'iffy' verses later.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 27, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve had many religious door knockers down the years, and liking a good debate I’ve invited many of them in, including JW’s. I’ve never heard the old “burn in hell” phrase. Heard some dubious interpretations and had some great ding-dong sessions with them but never had the “turn to god or else…”[/QUOTE

Like all good salesmen, the unsavoury small print is left till last or not  revealed at all.😀

"NO Man  cometh  to the Father except by me"?
		
Click to expand...


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

People have told me if they want to be religious I should let them be.
Fine.
However, I draw the line when they use their religious beliefs to make laws that affect the way other people live their life.
Unfortunately, I think Roe v Wade is just the beginning.


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## Orikoru (Jun 27, 2022)

Absolute farce. Can we just lock them away from the rest of the world and throw away the key? There's a reason why in every blockbuster movie 'saving the world' really just means saving America. They have absolutely no concept of what's going on in the world. When Trump said 'make America great again' he really meant take America back to the 1970s again. Considering they seem themselves as some of sort leaders of the free world, they're so backwards it's unbelievable. Their recent history plays like the introduction flashback scenes of a post-apocalyptic disaster movie.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 27, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			Absolute farce. Can we just lock them away from the rest of the world and throw away the key? There's a reason why in every blockbuster movie 'saving the world' really just means saving America. They have absolutely no concept of what's going on in the world. When Trump said 'make America great again' he really meant take America back to the 1970s again. Considering they seem themselves as some of sort leaders of the free world, they're so backwards it's unbelievable. *Their recent history plays like the introduction flashback scenes of a post-apocalyptic disaster movie*.
		
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Don’t know if you have caught Star Trek “Strange new worlds” but this is exactly what has happened. They used flashbacks of recent American civil unrest as a precursor to a 2nd civil war and then onto WW3!


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## Brads (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So more likely to get shot then? 

Click to expand...

Nope not really.
People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.


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## Brads (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At least atheists don't go door to door telling people/children to accept Jesus or they will burn in hell forever.
		
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Jehovah’s witnesses 
Vile people.


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## Orikoru (Jun 27, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
*I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.*
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.
		
Click to expand...

I guess you're not black or a schoolchild then. Alright for some!


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
		
Click to expand...

You said you'd prefer to live in a red state, I was just pointing out you'd be more likely to be shot in a red state than a blue state


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 27, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find that there were Firearms Acts prior to world war 2 controlling acquisition, possession and use of firearms.
Firearms Act 1937 was one.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			People have told me if they want to be religious I should let them be.
Fine.
However, I draw the line when they use their religious beliefs to make laws that affect the way other people live their life.
Unfortunately, I think *Roe v Wade* is just the beginning.
		
Click to expand...

I believe you actually mean Dobbs v Jackson!
FWIW. Not all anti-abortion folk are 'religious zealouts', though many or even most 'religious zealouts' seem, to me, to be anti-abortion.
Of course, it's another demonstration of both the benefits and the deficiencies of US's democracy!


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
But I'm still asking you to provide a quote (from the OT or NT) which clearly states that removing an unborn from a woman is wrong.
		
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Forgot about/missed this.
The 'standard' response is that  Exodus 21:22-25 indicates that it's a crime, but not a capital (life-for-life) one. Though there are other another translation/interpretation that sets both sets a period when the punishment is only a fine, after which (when fully formed) it's a life-for-life one.
This article refers...https://humanjourney.org.uk/articles/exodus-21-and-abortion/
That said, Jewish Law, from which much of the Old Testament is derived/refers to, allows (and may even require) an abortion to to be performed if the mother's life is in danger. Other references indicate that a foetus is not considered a 'real person' until after its 40th day.


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I believe you actually mean Dobbs v Jackson!
		
Click to expand...

Wrong. 
Back on my ignore list you go


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Wrong.
Back on my ignore list you go
		
Click to expand...


Ah! 'Truth denier' mode again!
The effect of Dobbs v Jackson was to overturn Roe v Wade! Effectively, Roe v Wade no longer exists in US law.


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Can someone explain to Foxy that as I have him on ignore, I can't see anything he writes so he's wasting his time replying.
Thanks


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Can someone explain to Foxy that as I have him on ignore, I can't see anything he writes so he's wasting his time replying.
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Bob, what he has said is
"

The effect of Dobbs v Jackson was to overturn Roe v Wade! Effectively, Roe v Wade no longer exists in US law."

Iow, this latest Supreme Court decision is D vJ.  The previous binding decision, which required all States to allow abortion, is R v W.
R v W has now been changed by D v J.

Which means he was right😀


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## bobmac (Jun 27, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Bob, what he has said is
"

The effect of Dobbs v Jackson was to overturn Roe v Wade! Effectively, Roe v Wade no longer exists in US law."

Iow, this latest Supreme Court decision is D vJ.  The previous binding decision, which required all States to allow abortion, is R v W.
R v W has now been changed by D v J.

Which means he was right😀
		
Click to expand...

I'm not interested in what he said, I'm just sick and tired of him.


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## stefanovic (Jun 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You don't even have to do that.
I'll raise you Deuteronomy 21:20-21
“This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death
		
Click to expand...

Raise you further: What does the Psalm 137:9 verse mean in the Bible that says “happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”? - Quora 

But of course it doesn't mean what it says. It means just the opposite! 
Explanation: Either theists' minds are wired up another way, or like Dawkins may argue there is a gene for religion which encourages people to avoid awkward passages from their scripture.
There is also more than just a suspicion that most people who call themselves Christians have never read much of the Bible.


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## Imurg (Jun 28, 2022)

I've been humming Green Day's American Idiot for days now..........


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 28, 2022)

Reading this thread, both America and The Forum are overrun by religious zealots


Lets keep politics out of this thread please, or it will go the way of others


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Reading this thread, both America and The Forum are overrun by *religious zealots*


Lets keep politics out of this thread please, or it will go the way of others
		
Click to expand...

I have to say that I‘ve not spotted many of these on my side of that particular fence…🙄😍. And I get that.


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## DanFST (Jun 28, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.
		
Click to expand...


Cool, I lived in in CA for just under 2 years. 

I've seen 7 people get shot. I've lived here for 29 years, seen 0.


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## Brads (Jun 29, 2022)

You witnessed 7 shootings ?
I’d call that bad luck 
Most Americans I’ve known or worked
With have never seen one.


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## Beezerk (Jun 29, 2022)

Brads said:



			Jehovah’s witnesses
Vile people.
		
Click to expand...

Customer of mine is a JW, he's a genuinely lovely bloke. I've known him years and I only found out he is JW when one of my colleagues told me last year.


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## stefanovic (Jun 29, 2022)

USA is a nation of nations. A cult of cults. A land so insular the inhabitants have difficulty naming other countries and are largely oblivious to world events.

It is founded on contradictions, like from a bundle of different cultures immigrants soon become integrated all Americans. Guns are fine but abortion is not.

But what do I know? I've been there 3 times as a tourist and for me it's always felt more like a foreign land than anywhere else I've ever been.
They were usually surprised to find that as a foreigner I actually spoke English.


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## Rooter (Jun 29, 2022)

For a nation that is on the cutting edge of business, technology, and economics. Damn, they are a backward nation. 

If this wasn't a shout for a minimum IQ for a voting card, then I don't know what is.


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## Don Barzini (Jun 29, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
*People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.*
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.
		
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I wonder how many of the (roughly) 321 people shot by a gun every day in the US think the same?


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## D-S (Jun 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542208980235296770Says it all.


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## IanM (Jun 29, 2022)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542208980235296770Says it all.
		
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This forum needs a "blooming nora" button!


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## GreiginFife (Jun 29, 2022)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542208980235296770Says it all.
		
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Mississippi though, probably proudly proclaims “ma momma is also ma sista…” 

Nothing surprises me from bushwhackin rednecks like this.


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## yandabrown (Jun 29, 2022)

Brads said:



			You witnessed 7 shootings ?
I’d call that bad luck
*Most *Americans I’ve known or worked
With have never seen one.
		
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Blimey, most implies to me a significant minority have! I don't know anyone that has.


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## Brads (Jun 30, 2022)

Should have said all.
 My mistake.
The few I’ve known or worked with , none have seen a shooting or at least never said they have. Shootings weren’t a big part of any conversation.
Except the guy from Colorado. He was a big gun fan.


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## cliveb (Jun 30, 2022)

Brads said:



			Should have said all.
My mistake.
The few I’ve known or worked with , none have seen a shooting or at least never said they have. Shootings weren’t a big part of any conversation.
		
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I too have never met an American who's seen a shooting.
But that's not the point.
I've never met a Brit who's witnessed a kid being stabbed, or someone dying of a heroin overdose. Doesn't mean it isn't a problem.


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## Brads (Jun 30, 2022)

Yes, but what’s your point ?
The discussion was about a fear of being shot.
Many people are shot in the uk
Illegally held guns are a real problem here. Im still not scared of being shot.
Many more here are stabbed, I’m not scared of that either.
Many Americans are shot but it’s not a daily fear for them either.
Unless of course that’s the type of lifestyle you live and the company you keep.


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## cliveb (Jun 30, 2022)

Brads said:



			Yes, but what’s your point ?
The discussion was about a fear of being shot.
		
Click to expand...

Ah ok, if you're saying nearly all Americans have no fear of being shot, then fair enough.

I do however recall my very first trip to the USA (on business) back in the 1980s makes me wonder if they are really that relaxed about it...

I picked up a hire car at Boston airport and arrived at a toll booth on the Mass Pike.
I had chosen the wrong booth - it said "85 cents, exact change only".
I only had dollar bills and was wondering what to do. As I hesitated, the car behind honked the horn.
So I got out and walked back to explain the situation, and the driver was very polite and helpful.

When I arrived at work and related the tale, it was explained to me that the reason he was so polite was that he thought I might have a gun.
Which sounds to me like he might have been concerned about the possibility of being shot.


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## IanM (Jun 30, 2022)

...or he was just a nice bloke!


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## Brads (Jul 1, 2022)

Like most Americans.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
There is also more than just a suspicion that most people who call themselves *Christians* have never read much of the Bible.
		
Click to expand...

And while most use the OT, sourced and with often debatable translation, from selected ancient 'testament' as a moral and historic document, their approach to the NT (except Revelations) is different - a historic commentary events by participants or documentation of subsequent 'preaching/opinions'. Revelations is a peculiar document and very much in the style of the US Evangelical preachers.


stefanovic said:



			Raise you further: What does the Psalm 137:9 verse mean in the Bible that says “happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”? - Quora

Click to expand...

My view on that, as in many selected quotes, is that it's text taken out of context to justify the view of the person quoting.
If you read it with an open mind, I believe you'll see that the entire Psalm 137 is a 'song' about victory in battle - and the resultant atrocities that often occur(ed). It's not a lesson on what _should_ happen, but what, unfortunately, _does_ happen.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

Brads said:



			Nope not really.
People seem terrified of guns for no good reason.
I wouldn’t think for a second about getting shot in America.
What I do think though is their right to keep firearms is a positive and something that should never have been removed here.
*It was only removed here to stop workers revolting after the Second World War.*

Click to expand...

I think you mean the First World War! Though there were other reasons that coincided - compliance with Paris Arms Convention agreements and the Anglo-Irish war. And there was also earlier legislation restricting access to pistols.
US's 'right to bear arms',  enshrined in their constitution, is actually a reflection of old English law, though who and what has varied through the centuries.


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## stefanovic (Jul 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			And while most use the OT, sourced and with often debatable translation, from selected ancient 'testament' as a moral and historic document, their approach to the NT (except Revelations) is different - a historic commentary events by participants or documentation of subsequent 'preaching/opinions'. Revelations is a peculiar document and very much in the style of the US Evangelical preachers.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting the Bible is an historical document? Who wrote any of it? It's a mish-mash of redacted texts from a dark age, supplemented by medieval superstition. 
Did you know Jesus was a dragon slayer? I wonder why that infancy gospel didn't make it into the printed version.
In any case there never was such a person.
Jesus was not a Jewish name. He was both man and god. Both Jew and Gentile. 
A man everyone has heard of but nobody has ever met. That included the gospel writers.



			If you *read it with an open mind*, I believe you'll see that the entire Psalm 137 is a 'song' about victory in battle - and the resultant atrocities that often occur(ed). It's not a lesson on what _should_ happen, but what, unfortunately, _does_ happen.
		
Click to expand...

Your brains will fall out if you read the Bible with an open mind.


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## Foxholer (Jul 1, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Are you suggesting the Bible is an historical document? Who wrote any of it?
...
		
Click to expand...

Wikipedia is your friend!


stefanovic said:



			...
Jesus was not a Jewish name. He was both man and god. Both Jew and Gentile.
A man everyone has heard of but nobody has ever met. That included the gospel writers.
...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, Jesus is a Hebrew name.
The rest may be your belief, but it doesn't match opinions of 'virtually all scholars of antiquity'.

FWIW. There's absolutely no point arguing about 'faith'. Sooner or later, it finishes with/to the unresolvable 'but I have faith' point!


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## Fade and Die (Jul 1, 2022)




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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			...or he was just a nice bloke!
		
Click to expand...

I've just spent a month in America, my Son's Wife of 45 died of cancer leaving him and his three young Sons without a Wife and Mother.  Every other day for two months a different local family have delivered a meal for them and actively checked if they can help out in any other way, I was humbled by their generosity.  Tell me again how all  Americans are these gun waving sycophantic airheads.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've just spent a month in America, my Son's Wife of 45 died of cancer leaving him and his three young Sons without a Wife and Mother.  Every other day for two months a different local family have delivered a meal for them and actively checked if they can help out in any other way, I was humbled by their generosity.  Tell me again how all  Americans are these gun waving sycophantic airheads.
		
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Firstly my sympathy, especially to your son and his family for the loss of such an important part of family...
That generosity doesn't surprise me. While my experience of Americans is pretty/very limited, it's one of amazement about how helpful/giving they can be. Seems that while attitudes _across _communities can be extreme, attitudes _within_ each communities are very bonding/'teamy'.


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## bobmac (Jul 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Tell me again how *all  Americans *are these gun waving sycophantic airheads.
		
Click to expand...

Did anyone say that?
However, there are more guns than people in the US.
I've just watched 5 minutes of Fox News.....no wonder the country is in such a mess.


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've just watched 5 minutes of Fox News.....no wonder the country is in such a mess.
		
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If you rinse your brain in Dettol, it might get rid of some of the FOX News



SocketRocket said:



			I've just spent a month in America, my Son's Wife of 45 died of cancer leaving him and his three young Sons without a Wife and Mother.  Every other day for two months a different local family have delivered a meal for them and actively checked if they can help out in any other way, I was humbled by their generosity.  Tell me again how all  Americans are these gun waving sycophantic airheads.
		
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Good for them, but I doubt you are arguing that one anecdote can comment on a nation of over 300 million. We don't know if these people are part of the same religious community, race, social class, work together etc etc. But few people in trouble in the US can rely on such generous support from their community.

As for gun waving airheads, well you can't argue with the prevalence of gun ownership or the frequency of mass shootings. It doesn't mean everyone is always trying to shoot someone. I have been in the US over 100 times on business and spent decent amounts of time there on some longer stays. The diet of media, especially TV is really very different, and even more people there live in bubbles of their own partisans belief systems, of whatever flavour. Just because we get some of the same TV shows, don't think it is similar with a different accent. The average American is less well informed than the average UK citizen, and that is saying something considering what some of the latter think. Many Americans are incredibly parochial in their views, know nothing about anywhere outside the US, and have this built in idea of America being the greatest country and the rest of the world a bunch of either liberal Godless LGBTQ+ loving heathens (Europe, Oz), commies who want to bring socialism to the US (Russia and North Korea), or religious nutters (and definitely not the right type of religion) bent on the destruction of the US (most of the rest). A lot in the middle think the US west and east, especially north east, coasts are also Godless heathen hellholes.

The US has a different social contract with the people. There is minimal welfare state, no free healthcare for many, very harsh hire and fire employment rules, little vacation. If you aren't doing well in the US, it is because you aren't trying hard enough. The sense of community is different. Sadly, it is going the same direction in the UK.


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## cliveb (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Many Americans are incredibly parochial in their views, know nothing about anywhere outside the US....
		
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Indeed.
Good friends of mine moved to Massachusetts many years ago and were amused that on the evening TV news, at the end it said: "and now for international news - in California..." 
And this is Massachusetts - hardly an unenlightened redneck state.
They now live in France.

I will however say that every American I've had dealings with was very friendly.


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Indeed.
Good friends of mine moved to Massachusetts many years ago and were amused that on the evening TV news, at the end it said: "and now for international news - in California..."
And this is Massachusetts - hardly an unenlightened redneck state.
They now live in France.

I will however say that every American I've had dealings with was very friendly.
		
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Yes, although often rather superficially so. I used to wind up US colleagues by responding to them saying 'Hey, how are you?" by responding "Glad you asked, not so well, actually ..." and watching the horror on their faces as they tried to find a way out of an unintended conversation.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If you rinse your brain in Dettol, it might get rid of some of the FOX News



Good for them, but I doubt you are arguing that one anecdote can comment on a nation of over 300 million. We don't know if these people are part of the same religious community, race, social class, work together etc etc. But few people in trouble in the US can rely on such generous support from their community.

As for gun waving airheads, well you can't argue with the prevalence of gun ownership or the frequency of mass shootings. It doesn't mean everyone is always trying to shoot someone. I have been in the US over 100 times on business and spent decent amounts of time there on some longer stays. The diet of media, especially TV is really very different, and even more people there live in bubbles of their own partisans belief systems, of whatever flavour. Just because we get some of the same TV shows, don't think it is similar with a different accent. The average American is less well informed than the average UK citizen, and that is saying something considering what some of the latter think. Many Americans are incredibly parochial in their views, know nothing about anywhere outside the US, and have this built in idea of America being the greatest country and the rest of the world a bunch of either liberal Godless LGBTQ+ loving heathens (Europe, Oz), commies who want to bring socialism to the US (Russia and North Korea), or religious nutters (and definitely not the right type of religion) bent on the destruction of the US (most of the rest). A lot in the middle think the US west and east, especially north east, coasts are also Godless heathen hellholes.

The US has a different social contract with the people. There is minimal welfare state, no free healthcare for many, very harsh hire and fire employment rules, little vacation. If you aren't doing well in the US, it is because you aren't trying hard enough. The sense of community is different. Sadly, it is going the same direction in the UK.
		
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You comment on the minimal welfare state.  My Son has been given $700 a month for each of his three sons up to the age of 18, not sure if you would get this in the UK. If he decides to stop work and stay at home he can claim another $1000 a month.  OK, I understand your points but my experience is that to brand the country as full of gun toting Devil may care isolationists is extreme.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2022)

Americans are culturally very different from us, we both see it as odd as we share a (sort of) common language.

I worked for an American Software Co and spent my entire life explaining cultural differences to both the American and British boards.  

What we see as "whooping and hollering" is them expressing thanks or delight.  We see it (incorrectly) as bogus.

Conversely we had a Californian, just out of university,  did a presentation in Gloucester to an IT Help Desk.  Afterwards,  they all filed out and just said thank you.   She was practically in tears as she thought she'd bombed.    I had to explain she'd done blooming well to get any reaction at all out of an IT Helpdesk.

It's the same the world over.  

As for South Africa,  well, ....😁😁😁😊


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Americans are culturally very different from us, we both see it as odd as we share a (sort of) common language.

I worked for an American Software Co and spent my entire life explaining cultural differences to both the American and British boards.

What we see as "whooping and hollering" is them expressing thanks or delight.  We see it (incorrectly) as bogus.

Conversely we had a Californian, just out of university,  do a presentation in Gloucester to an IT Help Desk.  Afterwards,  they all filed out and just said thank you.   Afterwards she was practically in tears as she thought she'd bombed.    I had to explain she'd done blooming well to get any reaction at all out of an IT Helpdesk.

It's the same the world over.

As for South Africa,  well, ....😁😁😁😊
		
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I've experienced similar both as participant and 'victim' in UK.
I 'housed' (billeted was the NZ equivalent) Katrina Adams (later USTA CEO/President) for a local tournament. Super enthusiastic even though she'd lost in the first round of her last 4 events. Everything was 'No prarblem' and she was determined to win this last one - that included Annabelle Croft - before returning to the States. If not for an injury, I'm sure she would have won the Final that she got to. Wonderful social skills/attitude.
A South African 'colleague', son of a top executive of an unrelated company - so maybe that contributed to the attitude, was very frustrating to work with. Even after explaining how and why things were done a certain way, he continued to do it 'his' way!


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2022)

Airbus was very multi national...  I won a decent bet once predicting the order in which the various nationalities would arrive for a meeting!    Harmless stereotyping is fun, and shockingly accurate!  

...and if someone posts _"there is no such thing as harmless stereotyping" _it won't matter as they'll already be on the ignore list!


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You comment on the minimal welfare state.  My Son has been given $700 a month for each of his three sons up to the age of 18, not sure if you would get this in the UK. If he decides to stop work and stay at home he can claim another $1000 a month.  OK, I understand your points but my experience is that to brand the country as full of gun toting Devil may care isolationists is extreme.
		
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Is that 'Welfare State' as in from Government (or State)? Or from 'Social Security' payments funded either personally or through the company he worked for. I believe the latter is how most such 'benefits' are managed in US - and not necessarily for all employees.


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## bobmac (Jul 2, 2022)

IanM said:



			Airbus was very multi national...  I won a decent bet once predicting the order in which the various nationalities would arrive for a meeting!    Harmless stereotyping is fun, and shockingly accurate!  

...and if someone posts _"there is no such thing as harmless stereotyping" _it won't matter as they'll already be on the ignore list!  

Click to expand...

Who said that??????????


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Who said that??????????
		
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No one on here.................................. yet   (as far as I know!)


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Is that 'Welfare State' as in from Government (or State)? Or from 'Social Security' payments funded either personally or through the company he worked for. I believe the latter is how most such 'benefits' are managed in US - and not necessarily for all employees.
		
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I think it's a State benefit but not sure if its associated to Social Security payments. I'm sure I would not have received those benefits irrespective of National Insurance payments had I been in a similar situation here.


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2022)

I think everyone who appears on tv news should be made to swear an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth etc
ALL news channels.
Fox, OAN, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC....ALL of them.
That way, ALL the American people would get the truth, wouldn't that be refreshing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think everyone who appears on tv news should be made to swear an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth etc
ALL news channels.
Fox, OAN, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC....ALL of them.
That way, ALL the American people would get the truth, wouldn't that be refreshing.
		
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Unfortunately, people see the truth in different ways. Who decides which is the correct truth


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unfortunately, people see the truth in different ways. Who decides which is the correct truth 

Click to expand...

That's an absolute truism!
The US public's attitude to the inability to find WMDs in Iraq were based along party lines - Democrats believing that there never were any and it was all simply an excuse; Republicans believing they were simply hidden/destroyed/dismantled. Same facts; different conclusion/s!


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unfortunately, people see the truth in different ways. Who decides which is the correct truth 

Click to expand...

You may have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.
The truth is based on indisputable facts...
2+2=4
The earth isn't flat
The election wasn't stolen.

Edited for the oblate spheroid fans


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You may have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.
The truth is based on indisputable facts...
2+2=4
The earth is round
The election wasn't stolen.
		
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Only one of those is a scientifically indisputable fact! And even then, there are some who would dispute it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2022)

IanM said:



			Airbus was very multi national...  I won a decent bet once predicting the order in which the various nationalities would arrive for a meeting!    Harmless stereotyping is fun, and shockingly accurate!  

...and if someone posts _"there is no such thing as harmless stereotyping" _it won't matter as they'll already be on the ignore list!  

Click to expand...

I once worked in a global business unit for which my team was very multi-National.  I was not sure I was a believer when I heard folks talking about inter-National culture clashes but I can confirm that as the PM in the middle I found it very difficult managing a largely French design and build team to deliver to timelines agreed with my Indian programme directors, and service delivery managers.  The Americans were great, as were the Germans, Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Romanians. The Poles were brilliant and my favourite teams to work with.


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## Pants (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			That way, ALL the American people would get the truth
		
Click to expand...


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2022)

Pants said:



View attachment 43295

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I wonder if Trump ordered a code red


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I once worked in a global business unit for which my team was very multi-National.  I was not sure I was a believer when I heard folks talking about inter-National culture clashes but I can confirm that as the PM in the middle I found it very difficult managing a largely French design and build team to deliver to timelines agreed with my Indian programme directors, and service delivery managers.  The Americans were great, as were the Germans, Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Romanians. The Poles were brilliant and my favourite teams to work with.
		
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Wow! That would indeed have been a challenge! Simply dealing with the French would have been a difficult from my experience. Wife at the time worked for a US company supporting hospital software in 6 European countries, therefore 6 variations of every package. Her description of meetings reflected most of the parodies of the various countries perfectly!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Wow! That would indeed have been a challenge! Simply dealing with the French would have been a difficult from my experience. Wife at the time worked for a US company supporting hospital software in 6 European countries, therefore 6 variations of every package. Her description of meetings reflected most of the parodies of the various countries perfectly!
		
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…and I was the sole Brit…🙄 The contrast between the way the French and Indians work is…well…I just couldn’t make it work.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think everyone who appears on tv news should be made to swear an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth etc
ALL news channels.
Fox, OAN, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC....ALL of them.
That way, ALL the American people would get the truth, wouldn't that be refreshing.
		
Click to expand...

Not specific to Americans.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You may have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.
The truth is based on indisputable facts...
2+2=4
The earth isn't flat
The election wasn't stolen.

Edited for the oblate spheroid fans
		
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Tesla cars are overpriced an poorly designed.   Is this statement fact or opinion, does 2+2 =4 here?


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Not specific to Americans.
		
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I didn't say it was.



SocketRocket said:



			Tesla cars are overpriced an poorly designed.
		
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In your opinion, others disagree.



SocketRocket said:



			Is this statement fact or opinion, does 2+2 =4 here?
		
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Where?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I didn't say it was.
((Yes you did)



In your opinion, others disagree.
(I used it to show one man's truth is not necessarily a fact)



Where?
		
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OK, you failed to get the point.


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think everyone who appears on tv news should be made to swear an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth etc
ALL news channels.
Fox, OAN, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC....ALL of them.
That way, ALL the American people would get the truth, wouldn't that be refreshing.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to know which ones don't 'tell the truth'. Albeit not always 'the whole truth'. And even how 'lack of truth' is determined.
Even the normal epitome of independence - the BBC seems to have a noticeable 'bias' in its reporting of the Ukraine/Russia conflict - though that's fine by me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'd be interested to know which ones don't 'tell the truth'. Albeit not always 'the whole truth'. And even how 'lack of truth' is determined.
Even the normal epitome of independence - the BBC seems to have a noticeable 'bias' in its reporting of the Ukraine/Russia conflict - though that's fine by me.
		
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…and even the most trustworthy of news outlets can only report what is said - and if what is said is a load of untruths or dissembling then the news can only report these untruths - they are not responsible for the falsehoods, but for the accurate reporting of them - and in doing so they are not biased.


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## bobmac (Jul 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, you failed to get the point.
		
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You didn't make one.
I'm done


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## Ethan (Jul 3, 2022)

Methotrexate access letter

Methotrexate is a drug originally developed for treating cancer but now used for many rheumatological diseases, RA and the like. 

Some of the new state laws, especially in idiot states, have broad bans on drugs that can cause miscarriage or abortion, and many drugs can do this. Therefore people are fining it difficult to get thei methotrexate, even males or post-menopausal women. The same will be true for a bunch of other treatments used to treat cancer or serious immunological conditions. This is brain-dead to a shocking extent, even by American standards.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You didn't make one.
I'm done
		
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Like I said.


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

Another shooting in Chicago 😔.  But don't touch our guns!!!!!!!!


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## Foxholer (Jul 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			... does 2+2 =4 here?
		
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2 + 2 = 11 in base 3.
It's often a lie/exaggeration/hope when describing cars!
Context is important!


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

There have been 13 mass shootings in the US in the last 2 days


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## srixon 1 (Jul 6, 2022)

A 2 year old boy is now an orphan because of the mass shooting on July 4th. The US as a nation is a mess.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2022)

srixon 1 said:



			A 2 year old boy is now an orphan because of the mass shooting on July 4th. The US as a nation is a mess.
		
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Oh, what to say?  This is truly awful , as are all the other shootings.
Begs the question ( in desperation at trying to reduce it), is there a case for news blackout on these events. There must be a copycat element to these, don't you think.?
Can the news people not be made to keep it local? Or State only?
I know social media could/would "report" shootings, but even so, something along the lines of reduced publicity would help, wouldn't it?
Better than trying nothing.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

A positive move, if not a complete reset....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62096252


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## bobmac (Jul 9, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, what to say?  This is truly awful , as are all the other shootings.
Begs the question ( in desperation at trying to reduce it), is there a case for news blackout on these events. There must be a copycat element to these, don't you think.?
Can the news people not be made to keep it local? Or State only?
I know social media could/would "report" shootings, but even so, something along the lines of reduced publicity would help, wouldn't it?
Better than trying nothing.
		
Click to expand...

I think they did that in New Zealand. They wouldn't broadcast the name or any information about the shooter so he didn't get his 15 mins of fame.
It seems it's the opposite in the US


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think they did that in New Zealand. They wouldn't broadcast the name or any information about the shooter so he didn't get his 15 mins of fame.
It seems it's the opposite in the US
		
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Suppression of names is not uncommon/quite normal for certain crimes in NZ. It both 'assists Police in their inquiries' as associates are less likely to be warned and suppresses possible revenge attacks.
In this case though, The NZ PM stated, in Parliament, that she would never mention the gunman's name - a largely symbolic gesture to remove the perceived 'notoriety' goal.


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## D-S (Jul 12, 2022)

Marketing AR - 15 to kids.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546584963843325952


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Suppression of names is not uncommon/quite normal for certain crimes in NZ. It both 'assists Police in their inquiries' as associates are less likely to be warned and suppresses possible revenge attacks.
In this case though, The NZ PM stated, in Parliament, that she would never mention the gunman's name - a largely symbolic gesture to remove the perceived 'notoriety' goal.
		
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My best man emigrated to NZ. Methinks I should have done likewise.


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My best man emigrated to NZ. Methinks I should have done likewise.
		
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There are positives and negatives about any/every county. We had/got quite a few 'poms' at my 1st IT workplace - including the top 2 managers, One even commuted 50+ miles a day by train, which was hard to understand - until we came over here. Not all fitted in - in fact one, weirdly, went back the same weekend he arrived!


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## Brads (Jul 12, 2022)

D-S said:



			Marketing AR - 15 to kids.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546584963843325952

Click to expand...

Yup , they like to teach responsible gun ownership young over there.
Plenty I know here who have had shotgun certificates at ten or under.


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## bobmac (Jul 12, 2022)

Brads said:



			Yup , they like to teach responsible gun ownership young over there.
Plenty I know here who have had shotgun certificates at ten or under.
		
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Just the massive difference between a teenager using a shotgun under adult supervision and an 18 year old owning a semi automatic assault weapon which is designed to kill people en masse


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## Brads (Jul 13, 2022)

An 18yr old is an adult
The jr gun is not aimed at an adult.


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## bobmac (Jul 13, 2022)

Brads said:



			An 18yr old is an adult
		
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But not old enough to buy a handgun


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## Brads (Jul 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			But not old enough to buy a handgun
		
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You can buy a handgun at 18 in the states.
Just not at a show or from a dealer.
Buy secondhand or a family member can purchase for you.
So 18 
An adult


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## bobmac (Jul 14, 2022)

Brads said:



			You can buy a handgun at 18 in the states.
Just not at a show or from a dealer.
Buy secondhand or a family member can purchase for you.
So 18
An adult
		
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_*''Under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, long guns can only be sold to individuals 18 years old or older while handguns can be sold only to individuals 21 years old or older.''*_

_*https://thehill.com/changing-america/3493244-the-legal-ages-for-buying-a-gun-in-the-us/*_


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## cliveb (Jul 14, 2022)

Brads said:



			You can buy a handgun at 18 in the states.
		
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But not booze.
I guess at least that means the 18 year olds with guns won't also be drunk.


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## Brads (Jul 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



_*''Under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, long guns can only be sold to individuals 18 years old or older while handguns can be sold only to individuals 21 years old or older.''*_

_*https://thehill.com/changing-america/3493244-the-legal-ages-for-buying-a-gun-in-the-us/*_

Click to expand...

Read the whole thing
An 18yr old cannot buy from a dealer but can buy second hand or a family member can buy and gift it.
As I said in my above post.


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## Brads (Jul 14, 2022)

cliveb said:



			But not booze.
I guess at least that means the 18 year olds with guns won't also be drunk.
		
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Unlike the UK where 18yr olds can hold guns whilst drunk


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## bobmac (Jul 14, 2022)

Brads said:



			Read the whole thing
An 18yr old cannot buy from a dealer but can buy second hand or a family member can buy and gift it.
As I said in my above post.
		
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I did read the whole thing and being given a gift isn't the same as buying it himself unsupervised.

Ok, explain to me why an 18 year old can walk into a gun shop and buy a brand new shiney AR15 assault weapon designed to kill people en masse but can't buy a hand gun until he/she is 21?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I did read the whole thing and being given a gift isn't the same as buying it himself unsupervised.

Ok, explain to me why an 18 year old can walk into a gun shop and buy a brand new shiney AR15 assault weapon designed to kill people en masse but can't buy a hand gun until he/she is 21?
		
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Or a beer!🤯


Actually not legally an adult in Nebraska and Alabama until you are 19, and not in Mississippi until you are 21! 😂😂😂

What a stupid place. It has got a lot of growing up to do.


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## RRidges (Jul 14, 2022)

Brads said:



			Read the whole thing
An 18yr old cannot buy from a dealer but can buy second hand or a family member can buy and gift it.
As I said in my above post.
		
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That only applies if the dealer is a registered. If the dealer is not registered, which in the state I am in - Missouri - is the case for most purchases, from Gun Shows etc. the minimum age is 18. 
That 1968 law was apparently a copout prompted by the killings of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. The gun lobby supported it after it was watered down sufficiently to be symbolic only.
The entire issue is a reflection of the relationship between States and the Federal government. Until there's a Supreme Court ruling that is in favour of Federal Government, states can apply their own laws. Federal laws only apply for transactions that cross state boundaries.
Until there is a Supreme Court ruling based on The Constitution, which the federal government apparently fears might go against them, State and Federal laws can differ. 
Oh. And there are about the same number of Gun ranges in Kansas City as there are Golf ranges!


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## Springveldt (Jul 14, 2022)

Brads said:



			Unlike the UK where 18yr olds can hold guns whilst drunk
		
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But they can’t pick up an assault rifle in Asda while they are buying their super strength cider.


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## Springveldt (Jul 14, 2022)

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...ll-to-protect-interstate-travel-for-abortion/

The mind boggles. Are they going for full on Gilead in some of these states? What are they going to do, setup checkpoints and have women pee on a stick before letting them leave the state? Maybe require them to have their father or brothers permission to travel next?


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## Brads (Jul 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I did read the whole thing and being given a gift isn't the same as buying it himself unsupervised.

Ok, explain to me why an 18 year old can walk into a gun shop and buy a brand new shiney AR15 assault weapon designed to kill people en masse but can't buy a hand gun until he/she is 21?
		
Click to expand...

But buying it secondhand unsupervised is the same then ?
There are no restrictions on buying handguns at 18 unless you want to buy from a registered dealer.
This isn’t complicated by the way, no matter how hard you try.


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## Brads (Jul 14, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			But they can’t pick up an assault rifle in Asda while they are buying their super strength cider.
		
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That really gets into the constitutional right to own guns though.
Something you either agree with or not.
Americans agree with it.
It’s not our business to tell them they are wrong.


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## bobmac (Jul 15, 2022)

Brads said:



			But buying it secondhand unsupervised is the same then ?
There are no restrictions on buying handguns at 18 unless you want to buy from a registered dealer.
This isn’t complicated by the way, no matter how hard you try.
		
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It must be complicated as you can't seem to answer the question.
One more try.

_*''Under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, long guns can only be sold to individuals 18 years old or older while handguns can be sold only to individuals 21 years old or older.''*_ 

Why does the law make it easier for an 18 year old kid to buy an AR15 than a hand gun from a registered dealer?


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## Springveldt (Jul 15, 2022)

Brads said:



			That really gets into the constitutional right to own guns though.
Something you either agree with or not.
Americans agree with it.
It’s not our business to tell them they are wrong.
		
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From the polls I've seen the majority don't agree with it but thanks to their voting system it gets kept.

Someone needs to tell them they are wrong, far too many mass shootings happening due to you being able to pick up an AR15 along with your weekly shopping.


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## bobmac (Jul 15, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			From the polls I've seen the majority don't agree with it but thanks to their voting system it gets kept.

Someone needs to tell them they are wrong, far too many mass shootings happening due to you being able to pick up an AR15 along with your weekly shopping.
		
Click to expand...

They know they are wrong but as long as the gun lobbys and the NRA keep throwing money at them they will not repeal the gun laws.
The right to bear arms and bury their children


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## Brads (Jul 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It must be complicated as you can't seem to answer the question.
One more try.

_*''Under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, long guns can only be sold to individuals 18 years old or older while handguns can be sold only to individuals 21 years old or older.''*_

Why does the law make it easier for an 18 year old kid to buy an AR15 than a hand gun from a registered dealer?
		
Click to expand...

Bit impudent but hey ho
You have consistently stated they can’t buy a hand gun
Now you get smarmy and also change to why is it harder for them to buy a handgun
Change the narrative to make you sound like your right.?
I’ve answered you but you refuse to understand that.
Argue with yourself, I’m not interested.


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## cliveb (Jul 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Why does the law make it easier for an 18 year old kid to buy an AR15 than a hand gun from a registered dealer?
		
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Brads will be along to correct me if necessary, but my guess is it may be to do with the fact that a hand gun can be easily concealed. I suspect that hand guns are the weapon of choice for "normal" criminals, while assault rifles are preferred by the completely unhinged.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			They know they are wrong but as long as the gun lobbys and the NRA keep throwing money at them they will not repeal the gun laws.
The right to bear arms and bury their children 

View attachment 43490

Click to expand...

The whole standing up to the government as "part of a well armed militia" is a complete red herring as well. These people obviously haven't heard of tanks, planes and missiles. How long do they think they'd last standing there with their AR15 if the government sent a hellfire missile down their chimney?


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## bobmac (Jul 15, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Brads will be along to correct me if necessary, but my guess is it may be to do with the fact that a hand gun can be easily concealed. I suspect that hand guns are the weapon of choice for "normal" criminals, while *assault rifles are preferred by the completely unhinged*.
		
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Even more reason for the age to be increased or even ban their sale altogether.
These assault weapons belong on the battle ground, not in the playground.


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## Brads (Jul 15, 2022)

What’s the difference between an “assault” semi auto centre fire and a hunting semi auto centre fire rifle ?
Apart from the colour.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2022)

Brads said:



			What’s the difference between an “assault” semi auto centre fire and a hunting semi auto centre fire rifle ?
Apart from the colour.
		
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About $150?


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## bobmac (Jul 15, 2022)

Since the mass shooting in Highland Spring 11 days ago where 8 people died and 29 injured...there have been 26 mass shootings.

For those of you who may have missed it...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61915237


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## D-S (Jul 15, 2022)

Brads said:



			What’s the difference between an “assault” semi auto centre fire and a hunting semi auto centre fire rifle ?
Apart from the colour.
		
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Marketing? 
(Which is worrying on many levels)


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 15, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The whole standing up to the government as "part of a well armed militia" is a complete red herring as well. These people obviously haven't heard of tanks, planes and missiles. How long do they think they'd last standing there with their AR15 if the government sent a hellfire missile down their chimney?
		
Click to expand...

Pardon me, but 😂😂😂😂😂.
Just have this vision of blokes in Davy Crocket hats, and straw in their ears, then...........whoosh down the chimney!


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## IainP (Jan 7, 2023)

A new low?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64194407


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## bobmac (Sunday at 8:19 AM)

A couple of members of congress exchange Christmas Cards......








Look how proud she is


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## Orikoru (Sunday at 8:42 AM)

Is there any way to reset a country to factory settings? They are absolutely beyond repair.


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## Crow (Sunday at 9:05 AM)

Orikoru said:



			Is there any way to reset a country to factory settings? They are absolutely beyond repair.
		
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That's their problem, they all think they're cowboys, out defending themselves in the wild west. They don't trust their own laws to protect them.


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## SocketRocket (Sunday at 2:03 PM)

If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?


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## banjofred (Sunday at 2:05 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?
		
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It would be just as bad....or worse.


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## clubchamp98 (Sunday at 2:12 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?
		
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That’s their main defence.
Everyone else has them so I need one to protect myself.!
There would be some who wouldn’t but most would imo.


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## Fade and Die (Sunday at 2:25 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?
		
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It would be the Wild West! That’s why you need legislation, to save the people from the people.


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## larmen (Sunday at 4:02 PM)

Orikoru said:



			Is there any way to reset a country to factory settings? They are absolutely beyond repair.
		
Click to expand...

That's the problem, they are still at factory settings. They are immune to any upgrades or bug fixes. Their really old and outdated constitution is holy to them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sunday at 4:12 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?
		
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banjofred said:



			It would be just as bad....or worse.
		
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Totally disagree. Different culture entirely. I have no doubt you would get hotspots in certain cities in particular but on the whole, no.


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## Banchory Buddha (Sunday at 4:22 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally disagree. Different culture entirely. I have no doubt you would get hotspots in certain cities in particular but on the whole, no.
		
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Exactly, ownership of weapons in the UK countries died out of its own accord without any need for legislation


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## srixon 1 (Sunday at 4:24 PM)

Having fired every type of small arms available during my time in the  RN I just don’t see the attraction, and if we could own one I wouldn’t. As a kid I lived in the middle of nowhere and had a .22 air rifle. Shooting at targets becomes boring after a while.


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## bobmac (Sunday at 4:34 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally disagree. Different culture entirely. I have no doubt you would get hotspots in certain cities in particular but on the whole, no.
		
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I agree.
I can't remember the last time I got the urge to shoot someone.


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## rosecott (Sunday at 4:42 PM)

bobmac said:



			I agree.
*I can't remember the last time I got the urge to shoot someone*.
		
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I really can't believe that when you look at some of the threads you have been involved in.


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## Banchory Buddha (Sunday at 4:46 PM)

rosecott said:



			I really can't believe that when you look at some of the threads you have been involved in.
		
Click to expand...


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## bobmac (Sunday at 4:50 PM)

rosecott said:



			I really can't believe that when you look at some of the threads you have been involved in.
		
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After 14 years, I've learned to say my piece and walk away


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## theoneandonly (Sunday at 6:01 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			If there were no restrictions on gun ownership in the UK, how many would own them?
		
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Not much different to how it's here now  I'd expect. We share a common language with America but that doesn't make us alike.


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## SocketRocket (Sunday at 6:08 PM)

theoneandonly said:



			Not much different to how it's here now  I'd expect. We share a common language with America but that doesn't make us alike.
		
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It doesn't change human nature.  I think there would be a considerable number of privately owned guns in this case.


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## theoneandonly (Sunday at 6:24 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't change human nature.  I think there would be a considerable number of privately owned guns in this case.
		
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You can buy and own a gun in the UK, can't say I've ever wanted one.

Quite a few out there already 
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...es-england-and-wales-april-2020-to-march-2021


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## SocketRocket (Sunday at 6:31 PM)

bobmac said:



			I agree.
I can't remember the last time I got the urge to shoot someone.
		
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Owning a gun isn't a prerequisite to shoot someone or have an urge to shoot someone.
In the UK we have a right to own shotguns, a licence can only be refused on the grounds of proven insanity, age or not having a suitable cabinet to lock it in.  The restriction on how many you can keep is only based on the capacity of the cabinet.


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## banjofred (Sunday at 7:46 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally disagree. Different culture entirely. I have no doubt you would get hotspots in certain cities in particular but on the whole, no.
		
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Having lived most of my life in both countries....not as much different as you may think. Both countries I would rate at very equivalent as far as the amount of violence and anger. Take away the gun laws in the UK......and give it 20 years and you would see a huge increase in gun violence. Still wouldn't get to the US levels, there isn't the hunting culture in the UK as the US has. 

Heck, take away the laws on carrying a knife in the UK and see what happens.........


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## SocketRocket (Sunday at 10:09 PM)

theoneandonly said:



			You can buy and own a gun in the UK, can't say I've ever wanted one.

Quite a few out there already
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...es-england-and-wales-april-2020-to-march-2021

Click to expand...

The types of gun are much more restricted in the UK.


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## bobmac (Monday at 6:00 AM)

SocketRocket said:



			Owning a gun isn't a prerequisite to shoot someone or have an urge to shoot someone.
		
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Ask any gun owner in America why they have a gun and one of the reasons will be to defend myself ie to shoot someone.
I would never own a gun


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 8:06 AM)

SocketRocket said:



			The types of gun are much more restricted in the UK.
		
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Are you suggesting shot guns aren't lethal enough ? In all honesty your question is just daft what iffery.


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## BiMGuy (Monday at 8:08 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Are you suggesting shot guns aren't lethal enough ? In all honesty your question is just daft what iffery.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they are. But compared to an AR15?


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 8:15 AM)

BiMGuy said:



			Of course they are. But compared to an AR15?
		
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Dead is dead no?


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## Yorkhacker (Monday at 9:38 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Dead is dead no?
		
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Theres a difference between 1 dead and 20 dead though.


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 9:50 AM)

Yorkhacker said:



			Theres a difference between 1 dead and 20 dead though.
		
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Is there a limit on how many people you can kill with guns in the UK?


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## BiMGuy (Monday at 9:56 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Is there a limit on how many people you can kill with guns in the UK?
		
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It’s much easier to kill 20 people with an AR15 than it is a shotgun.


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 10:01 AM)

BiMGuy said:



			It’s much easier to kill 20 people with an AR15 than it is a shotgun.
		
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Yes and easier to kill 20 people with a bomb than an AR 15. What's your point ?


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## D-S (Monday at 10:03 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes and easier to kill 20 people with a bomb than an AR 15. What's your point ?
		
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That you can't buy a ready made bomb in Walmart but you can buy an assault rifle?


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## Bdill93 (Monday at 10:06 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes and easier to kill 20 people with a bomb than an AR 15. What's your point ?
		
Click to expand...

In the USA you can go to a gun store and buy a weapon capable of mass murder.

In the UK you cant just go and buy a Assault Rifle, you wont be able to google making bombs without joining some sort of watch list either......


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## BiMGuy (Monday at 10:08 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes and easier to kill 20 people with a bomb than an AR 15. What's your point ?
		
Click to expand...

I think you’re missing the point.

I suspect in the USA it’s much easier to kill 20 people with an AR15 than a bomb.


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 10:10 AM)

BiMGuy said:



			I think you’re missing the point.

I suspect in the USA it’s much easier to kill 20 people with an AR15 than a bomb.
		
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Most gun deaths in the USA are handgun related.


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## PhilTheFragger (Monday at 11:06 AM)

Whatever
Let’s move on please


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## theoneandonly (Monday at 11:14 AM)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Whatever
Let’s move on please
		
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Move on to what?


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## clubchamp98 (Monday at 11:26 AM)

theoneandonly said:



			Move on to what?
		
Click to expand...

Knife crime 
Gun crime here is minimal but knives are a real problem.


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## Dando (Monday at 2:40 PM)

IainP said:



			A new low?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64194407

Click to expand...

apparently he shot the teacher as she was going to confiscate his gun!


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## Lord Tyrion (Monday at 3:09 PM)

Dando said:



			apparently he shot the teacher as she was going to confiscate his gun!
		
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He is too young to be prosecuted but it will be interesting to see if they go after his parents. What is a 6yr old doing with a gun, how did he have access to it?


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## clubchamp98 (Monday at 3:11 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He is too young to be prosecuted but it will be interesting to see if they go after his parents. What is a 6yr old doing with a gun, how did he have access to it?
		
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Yes but if they put his parents away what happens to him?
Really sorry state of affairs ,truly shocking.
I feel for the poor teachers family.


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## Lord Tyrion (Monday at 3:22 PM)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but if they put his parents away what happens to him?
Really sorry state of affairs ,truly shocking.
I feel for the poor teachers family.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he will live with responsible people?

The whole issue of teacher safety in America is mind blowing. The checks on pupils, the scanners to walk through each morning, gun safety drills, it's crazy when these are schools.


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## D-S (Monday at 3:44 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maybe he will live with responsible people?

The whole issue of teacher safety in America is mind blowing. The checks on pupils, the scanners to walk through each morning, gun safety drills, it's crazy when these are schools.
		
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And the NRA response is ‘arm the teachers’! 
Over 600 mass shooting in each of the last 3 years in the US and ” 95% of schools are practising shooter and lockdown drills in one form or another. Some states, such as Florida, have passed laws making them mandatory.”


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## bobmac (Monday at 3:48 PM)

The teacher is stable and chatting with family and not as seriously injured as first reported.


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## patricks148 (Monday at 3:54 PM)

I'm rather glad we don't have the gun culture in the UK, especially with the way society is going, can you imagine , the road rage, parking altercations and the like turing into shoot outs.
As someone who owns a shotgun, this will be my last few months with one. Too.much hassle to get the license now, plus I just don't get the time any longer and with the cost of cartridges the way they are even clay pigeon cost has shot up.


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## Dando (Monday at 4:17 PM)

patricks148 said:



			I'm rather glad we don't have the gun culture innthe UK, especially with the way society is going, van you imagine , the road rage, parking altercations and the like turingbinto shoot outs.
*As someone who owns a shotgun*, this will be my last few months with one. Too.much hassle to get the license now, plus I just don't get the time any longer and with the cost of cartridges the way they are even clay pigeon cost has shot up.
		
Click to expand...

I'll remember this next time your stood over a slippery 3 footer for par!


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## clubchamp98 (Monday at 5:41 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maybe he will live with responsible people?

The whole issue of teacher safety in America is mind blowing. The checks on pupils, the scanners to walk through each morning, gun safety drills, it's crazy when these are schools.
		
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Yes I know he’s only 6 yrs old but I wouldn’t think to many families would want to adopt him.
To look a teacher in the eye and pull the trigger takes some doing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Monday at 5:45 PM)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I know he’s only 6 yrs old but I wouldn’t think to many families would want to adopt him.
To look a teacher in the eye and pull the trigger takes some doing.
		
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Move states, change the name etc. Who knows, at 6 he have known what he was doing, he may have thought it was just a game? One for the child psychologist to deal with first of all.

What's for certain, he should never have been able to get hold of the gun in the first place.


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## HeftyHacker (Monday at 5:51 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			Owning a gun isn't a prerequisite to shoot someone or have an urge to shoot someone.
In the UK we have a right to own shotguns, a licence can only be refused on the grounds of proven insanity, age or not having a suitable cabinet to lock it in.  The restriction on how many you can keep is only based on the capacity of the cabinet.
		
Click to expand...

When my dad got his shotgun for a spot of clay pigeon shooting when he retired, he asked the police officer what the legal age limit was and the officer replied "technically 2, but thats only because someone one who has known you for two years has to vouch for you".

This was 5 or 6 years ago mind.


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## Imurg (Monday at 5:53 PM)

D-S said:



			And the NRA response is ‘arm the teachers’!
		
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What a good idea....so she can shoot the 6 year old back......what a good look that would be....
America and it's guns........you do wonder what it'll take to shake them up......


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## clubchamp98 (Monday at 6:58 PM)

Imurg said:



			What a good idea....so she can shoot the 6 year old back......what a good look that would be....
America and it's guns........you do wonder what it'll take to shake them up......
		
Click to expand...

Maybe a teacher killing a six year old in self defence?
Mad crazy gun laws.


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## D-S (Monday at 7:07 PM)

clubchamp98 said:



			Maybe a teacher killing a six year old in self defence?
Mad crazy gun laws.
		
Click to expand...

Over 6000 children killed or injured by gun violence in the USA in 2022. Over 1300 killed aged 12-17 and more than 300 11 and below killed.
If stats like these won’t make them change their laws then obviously nothing will.


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## banjofred (Monday at 7:20 PM)

If you are waiting for the US to use common sense....well, you may have to wait a long time. It's not a lot different here (as far as common sense)....all you have to do is look at the world around you. Luckily, you don't have as many guns here....and I hope it stays that way. This is coming from a guy who from a young age had assorted BB guns, 3 or 4 .22 rifles, 2 shotguns and a .30-30 in his bedroom. I wasn't a hunter, but lived in a big hunting community. I just liked to target shoot, so I used the .22's most of the time. The world is different now. A friend from college (I was in his wedding party) no longer speaks to me because I objected to the number and ease of getting guns in the US....he is a big gun rights person. I remember a few guys who had rifles in their pickups...usually stored across the rear view window in the school parking lot (mid 70's).


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## Captainron (Monday at 7:28 PM)

Unbelievable ruling and direction of travel. Ridiculous in my opinion.

Religion and politics should not mix. EVER!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Monday at 8:00 PM)

Captainron said:



			Unbelievable ruling and direction of travel. Ridiculous in my opinion.

Religion and politics should not mix. EVER!!
		
Click to expand...

In a secular society religious beliefs should not *determine* political policy, however I might suggest that policy can reasonably be reviewed, assessed and commented upon by those of faith in the context of the main precepts that they hold.  But the way some religious interpretations are used in the USA to drive and determine policy is frankly unconscionable.  Fortunately most of faith in the UK consider such interpretations extreme and irrelevant today - if they were indeed actually ever relevant.


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## patricks148 (Monday at 10:58 PM)

One common denominators with what happens in the US... its always Americans !


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## SocketRocket (Monday at 11:10 PM)

theoneandonly said:



			Are you suggesting shot guns aren't lethal enough ? In all honesty your question is just daft what iffery.
		
Click to expand...

What do you find difficult to understand when I suggest the types of gun you can own are more restricted in the UK.  What has that got to do with how lethal a shot gun is.


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 8:25 AM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In a secular society religious beliefs should not *determine* political policy, *however *I might suggest that policy can reasonably be reviewed, assessed and commented upon by those of faith in the context of the main precepts that they hold.  But the way some religious interpretations are used in the USA to drive and determine policy is frankly unconscionable.  Fortunately most of faith in the UK consider such interpretations extreme and irrelevant today - if they were indeed actually ever relevant.
		
Click to expand...

I knew there had to be a ''however''
I will NOT live my life according to policies reviewed, assessed and commented on based on someone else's faith. And the arrogance of these people who have decided their religion is the right religion is astonishing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Tuesday at 9:27 AM)

bobmac said:



			I knew there had to be a ''however''
I will NOT live my life according to policies reviewed, assessed and commented on based on someone else's faith. And the arrogance of these people who have decided their religion is the right religion is astonishing.
		
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…and as one of faith I *absolutely* have the right to review, assess and comment upon any policy.

Just in case I have been misunderstood, I will repeat…I would not expect the views of those of faith to *determine* policy, but can reasonably expect them to form *part* of the context in which the policy is formed.  That part can be dismissed if the policymaker so decides, but I feel it shouldn’t simply be ignored.  Not saying anything more than that.


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 10:18 AM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That part can be dismissed if the policymaker so decides, *but I feel it shouldn’t simply be ignored.*  Not saying anything more than that.
		
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How I live my life is none of their business.


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## D-S (Tuesday at 10:24 AM)

I believe that the 'views of those of faith' should bear exactly the same weight and be taken into account in just the same way as those not of faith - no more, no less.


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## SocketRocket (Tuesday at 11:09 AM)

bobmac said:



			How I live my life is none of their business.
		
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And how he lives his is none of your business.


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 11:27 AM)

SocketRocket said:



			And how he lives his is none of your business.
		
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You are absolutely correct, and that is why I have never tried to tell him how he should live his life.
Unless you know different?
People can believe whatever they want, I only object when they try and force their rules and beliefs on me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Tuesday at 11:46 AM)

Is it raining outside perchance?

Stop arguing over nothing guys


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## SocketRocket (Tuesday at 1:52 PM)

bobmac said:



			You are absolutely correct, and that is why I have never tried to tell him how he should live his life.
Unless you know different?
People can believe whatever they want, I only object when they try and force their rules and beliefs on me.
		
Click to expand...

"Force". Who's forcing anything on you?   Read it or ignore it, it's your choice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Tuesday at 2:08 PM)

bobmac said:



			How I live my life is none of their business.
		
Click to expand...

Though whether we like it or not we have to accept that those who form policy make it _their_ business.


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## Lord Tyrion (Tuesday at 2:30 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			"Force". Who's forcing anything on you?   Read it or ignore it, it's your choice.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are missing his point. @bobmac is not complaining about SILH posing his views, as per his reply to you. It is religious leaders being in the HoL, having the ear of politicians, that is the issue. Why should they have that influence? That is my reading of his posts (apologies if I have this wrong Bob but I thought it might clarify and stop the back and forth)


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 2:35 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			"Force". Who's forcing anything on you?   Read it or ignore it, it's your choice.
		
Click to expand...

I'm talking about law makers who listen to people of faith and base their decisions on their input.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though whether we like it or not we have to accept that those who form policy make it _their_ business.
		
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See above


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## Wilson (Tuesday at 4:14 PM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and as one of faith I *absolutely* have the right to review, assess and comment upon any policy.

Just in case I have been misunderstood, I will repeat…I would not expect the views of those of faith to *determine* policy, but can reasonably expect them to form *part* of the context in which the policy is formed.  That part can be dismissed if the policymaker so decides, but I feel it shouldn’t simply be ignored.  Not saying anything more than that.
		
Click to expand...

You have the right to review, asses and comment upon any policy, as a human being, your faith has nothing to do with it.


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## SocketRocket (Tuesday at 4:47 PM)

Wilson said:



			You have the right to review, asses and comment upon any policy, as a human being, your faith has nothing to do with it.
		
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If his faith is a factor in the way he comes to a conclusion then for him it has everything to do with it.


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## SocketRocket (Tuesday at 4:56 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are missing his point. @bobmac is not complaining about SILH posing his views, as per his reply to you. It is religious leaders being in the HoL, having the ear of politicians, that is the issue. Why should they have that influence? That is my reading of his posts (apologies if I have this wrong Bob but I thought it might clarify and stop the back and forth)
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. He didn't mention anything about religious leaders, he said when  'People' try and force their rules and beliefs on him.

Anyhow,  I would like to discuss the way our rule makers are or aren't representative of individual beliefs but that would stray into politics, so I won't.


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 5:23 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. He didn't mention anything about religious leaders, he said when  'People' try and force their rules and beliefs on him.
		
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''People'' meaning those who knock at my door and try save my soul, or those who stand on the high street and do the same or those who we were actually talking about who try and influence lawmakers to make laws based on something they believe in from a book written 2000 years ago.
SILH has not done any of those things and I certainly haven't tried to tell him how he should live his life.
But then you knew all that, it just didn't suit your argument.


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## PhilTheFragger (Tuesday at 5:34 PM)

@SocketRocket @bobmac etc

We are moving off topic, can we bin this particular tangent

Note , 3rd time of asking, there won’t be a fourth 👍


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## theoneandonly (Tuesday at 6:58 PM)

What's off topic about it ? The topic in the op was very much guided by the religious beliefs of US law makers and conservative Christian groups.


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## PhilTheFragger (Tuesday at 7:52 PM)

theoneandonly said:



			What's off topic about it ? The topic in the op was very much guided by the religious beliefs of US law makers and conservative Christian groups.
		
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It’s the to-ing and frow-ing about whose opinion is correct that is the problem and something that many people have said is one of the main problems on the forum. 
so stamping down on it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Tuesday at 8:14 PM)

theoneandonly said:



			What's off topic about it ? The topic in the op was very much guided by the religious beliefs of US law makers and conservative Christian groups.
		
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And fortunately, for the most part in the UK and unlike the USA, we do not have many, if any, actual policy making individuals bringing extreme religious beliefs and biases to the table where policy is made - largely I am sure because they do not have significant sections of their voters holding such beliefs.  Again this is so unlike many US states and districts.


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## srixon 1 (Yesterday at 11:01 PM)

Having just read the news about the shooting of the teacher by a pupil in America, I googled the type of gun that was used. I was expecting to see a tiny 1 shot thing. But no, it is a standard size 9mm automatic pistol that you can buy for $250. Crazy that it is half the price of a new golf driver. 😢 After googling it I’m now expecting the police to turn up at my house in the next 10 minutes.


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## 2blue (Yesterday at 11:29 PM)

srixon 1 said:



			Having just read the news about the shooting of the teacher by a pupil in America, I googled the type of gun that was used. I was expecting to see a tiny 1 shot thing. But no, it is a standard size 9mm automatic pistol that you can buy for $250. Crazy that it is half the price of a new golf driver. 😢 After googling it I’m now expecting the police to turn up at my house in the next 10 minutes.
		
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Hide your driver Steve!!


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## Dando (Today at 2:43 AM)

srixon 1 said:



			Having just read the news about the shooting of the teacher by a pupil in America, I googled the type of gun that was used. I was expecting to see a tiny 1 shot thing. But no, it is a standard size 9mm automatic pistol that you can buy for $250. Crazy that it is half the price of a new golf driver. 😢 After googling it I’m now expecting the police to turn up at my house in the next 10 minutes.
		
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The police are far too busy protecting the bed wetters from hurty words on social media


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Today at 8:26 AM)

Dando said:



			The police are far too busy protecting the bed wetters from hurty words on social media
		
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Hurty words on social media can, and do, kill.😟


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## SocketRocket (Today at 11:19 AM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hurty words on social media can, and do, kill.😟
		
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I notice an American University has banned the word 'Field' as they believe it has racist connotations, they think it will be offensive to Black people because Slaves worked in fields. 🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Today at 12:28 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice an American University has banned the word 'Field' as they believe it has racist connotations, they think it will be offensive to Black people because Slaves worked in fields. 🙄
		
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There’s no accounting for the sensibilities of some. 

Personally maybe I could be p’d off that the Duke of Cumberland‘s men slaughtered many of my ancestors on or close to the field of Culloden in 1746.  At least my clan has a marker stone there in remembrance and so I won’t boycott Cumberland or it’s sausages. 👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


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## Dando (Today at 12:35 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice an American University has banned the word 'Field' as they believe it has racist connotations, they think it will be offensive to Black people because Slaves worked in fields. 🙄
		
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Another sacked a teacher for showing a picture of Mohammed. The teacher warmed the students and gave them the option to leave The room but they all stayed.
1 bedwetter complained that she wasn’t prepared and others who weren’t in the room peed their pants and jumped on the bandwagon.


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## Fade and Die (Today at 12:47 PM)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice an American University has banned the word 'Field' as they believe it has racist connotations, they think it will be offensive to Black people because Slaves worked in fields. 🙄
		
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The first rule of ‘Woke’ fascists is that white people are evil and can be held collectively responsible guilty of things that happened long before they were born. (Just don’t try the same with any other group, you horrible racist.) 😏


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## larmen (Today at 2:28 PM)

srixon 1 said:



			After googling it I’m now expecting the police to turn up at my house in the next 10 minutes.
		
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I used to Google some guns when reading the Reacher books to know what he is talking about, no one ever cared. Or they care and they are out there observing? ;-(


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## srixon 1 (Today at 3:39 PM)

larmen said:



			I used to Google some guns when reading the Reacher books to know what he is talking about, no one ever cared. Or they care and they are out there observing? ;-(
		
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You’re probably on a police list of dodgy characters 🤣


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## cliveb (Today at 5:55 PM)

Fade and Die said:



			The first rule of ‘Woke’ fascists is that* white people are evil* and can be held collectively responsible guilty of things that happened long before they were born. (Just don’t try the same with any other group, you horrible racist.) 😏
		
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Too broad a definition.
The evil ones are white, heterosexual, non-disabled men.
Lucky for me I'm mixed race - my dad was from London and my mum from Yorkshire.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Today at 6:04 PM)

Fade and Die said:



			The first rule of ‘Woke’ fascists is that white people are evil and can be held collectively responsible guilty of things that happened long before they were born. (Just don’t try the same with any other group, you horrible racist.) 😏
		
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What the blazes are ‘woke fascists’- or are they in fact just individuals who abhor all forms or bigotry, prejudice, racism and xenophobia - and speak out about it.  That’s all of us, or should be all of us, surely.👍😘


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## BiMGuy (Today at 6:15 PM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the blazes are ‘woke fascists’- or are they in fact just individuals who abhor all forms or bigotry, prejudice, racism and xenophobia - and speak out about it.  That’s all of us, or should be all of us, surely.👍😘
		
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I think it’s people who don’t find Chubby Brown funny.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Today at 6:40 PM)

BiMGuy said:



			I think it’s people who don’t find Chubby Brown funny.
		
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Well I guess that, were it so, that would make me a ‘woke’ fascist - can’t stand his form of ‘humour’.  At least I’m not an ‘anti-woke’ fascist 🙄👍


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## Fade and Die (Today at 6:55 PM)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the blazes are ‘woke fascists’- or are they in fact just individuals who abhor all forms or bigotry, prejudice, racism and xenophobia - and speak out about it.  That’s all of us, or should be all of us, surely.👍😘
		
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I used the word Fascist because of their intolerance to any other point of view…

The “woke” like the BLM started as a commendable idea but it was soon taken over by intolerant zealots. You know the type who heaped abuse on the writer J. K. Rowling when she dared to voice the obvious biological truth that women have XX Chromosomes and Men have XY Chromosomes? 

The same sort who pull down statues.

Do you remember when the intolerant Taliban destroyed the beautiful statue of Athena at Palmyra? Was you disgusted by it? (Christians did it first btw in 385 🤫) There is more than a whiff of the Old Testament in the current destruction and blacklisting of statues across the Western world…


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## BiMGuy (Today at 6:58 PM)

Fade and Die said:



*I used the word Fascist because of their intolerance to any other point of view…*

The “woke” like the BLM started as a commendable idea but it was soon taken over by intolerant zealots. You know the type who heaped abuse on the writer J. K. Rowling when she dared to voice the obvious biological truth that women have XX Chromosomes and Men have XY Chromosomes?

The same sort who pull down statues.

Do you remember when the intolerant Taliban destroyed the beautiful statue of Athena at Palmyra? Was you disgusted by it? (Christians did it first btw in 385 🤫) There is more than a whiff of the Old Testament in the current destruction and blacklisting of statues across the Western world…
		
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Sounds a lot like Farage supporters and Daily Mail readers too.

There are two sides to everything, and most things fall somewhere in the middle.


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## SocketRocket (Today at 10:22 PM)

BiMGuy said:



			Sounds a lot like Farage supporters and Daily Mail readers too.

There are two sides to everything, and most things fall somewhere in the middle.
		
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😂


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## SocketRocket (51 minutes ago)

I may have posted this before but just to reiterate my experience of the average American.

My Son lives in the USA and my Daughter in Law died aged 45 last year leaving my Son and my three young Grandsons.  My Wife and I spend some time with them after her death to help out and support them.

For the two months after her death the local neighbours supplied them with a meal every other day on a rota basis and helped out in so many ways. Not the normal behaviour of mad gunslinging rednecks.

There are a lot of very decent polite people in the USA so before people start sharpening the pitchforks they should try understanding the way the vast majority live their lives.


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## Tashyboy (39 minutes ago)

cliveb said:



			Too broad a definition.
The evil ones are white, heterosexual, non-disabled men.
Lucky for me I'm mixed race - my dad was from London and my mum from Yorkshire.
		
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Jellied eels in Yorkshire pud then 😳😁


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