# Changing your natural shot shape or not.



## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

In the last 18 months i have had 12 lessons with 2 different pro's. The first was at a range close to me as the pro had come with loads of compliments from people who had used him before and by a friend that worked at the range.  Now when these lessons started i was playing off approximately 20 although it was unofficial.

Pro #1 - 7 course lesson starting October 2009 finishing march 2010.

After the initial first lesson he come up with 4 faults in my swing:
1) my grip was strong, mainly left hand strong with atleast 3 knuckles showing and a medium/strong right hand, he wasnt so much concerned about this as we was struggling to get both hands neutral, we worked on getting the hands a bit more neutral but not near close to what i would call a textbook grip because other issues in the swing concerned him more. 
2) my swing plane was very flat, and this was causing me to hit in to out across the ball promoting a strong draw & occassional hook.  this was killing good cards and this was the pro's main concern.  after working on swing plane drills we got a more neutral swing plane which was alot less in to out but i still kept a faint draw.  
3) i was struggling to get my hips through the ball at impact.  with a slight tweek of the left foot position slightly more turned out this seemed the easiest of all the faults to cure.
4) i would often put alot of effort into a extended back swing and this would result in my left foot moving at the top of the back swing. a shorter more controled back swing seem to cure this and also help accuracy.

At the end of the lesson course i still had a nice natural draw without it turning into a hook, my scores had improved with all of my best golf coming in may/june/july 2010 where i was breaking 80 on a regular basis, this would have made me about 9/10 hc around my local.  we had made the grip more neutral although not text book, i was getting through the ball better at impact and was hitting the ball well.  
So in August time i joined my course and after a bad case of the nerves i got my first official handicap of 15.  mid october the hooks come back, but as the range i used to go to was having major building works done, i opted to use the range at my new club using one of their pro's.  I wanted to rebuild my swing ready for 2011 so i opted to miss the end of october, and apart from the november medal most of november to get these faults dialed.  

Pro # 2, a 5 lesson course starting october 2010 finishing february 2011

After the first lesson he come to the conclusion that:

1) grip although not as strong as it used to be needed to be neutral, no excuses, not almost neutral, but totally neutral!
2) swing path although not as flat as previous still needed steepening on the back swing, and needed a flatter follow through.

So after one the first 2 lessons of the course my grip was fixed and my swing plane was more neutral in effect of being closer to the correct planes.  My golf improved and by the third lesson everything was clicking nicely, the forth lesson saw a short game brush up and that way 2011 off to a great start with my monthly medals results going 4th (jan) 
1st (feb cut from 15.22 to 14.00) 
1st (march going from 14.00 to 13.4) 
but i keep getting an attack of the hooks.  Before march's medal i had to have my final 5th lesson 45 mins before tee off because i was apparently coming so far from the inside this was what was the cause of my issues.

Now im at the point that although my rounds are scoring, im not happy with my golf.  In my opinion my long game is the worst its been ever, and my scores although below h/c are coming from a creative short game around the greens.  At the weekend my stats were the below:

GIR 7/18

Fairways 7/13 (although not bad alot of strikes were out the toe with a big draw)

up/down saves 4/10

sand saves 1/2

putts 36 (major pace issues on lightening greens with loads of misses from 3 ft or less)

Now my question is my current pro seems to be hooked on " soft cuts, soft cuts, got to hit soft cuts ".  Obvioulsy my natural shot is a draw otherwise i wouldnt have been fighting it for 12 lessons, do i go with my current pro and work on getting rid of this draw for good, or would you ask/request on keeping the draw and managing your natural shot.  

help me out guys.


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## fundy (Mar 13, 2011)

any chance you can post a video up?

personally Ive gone from being a fader to a drawer of the ball and am now pretty neutral, I dont really have a stock shot either way though feel relatively comfortable hitting both at times though i'm planning on getting back to a stock shot of a soft draw again in the near future.

im not a fan of a pro who thinks there is only one way to play the game and wants to fit you into that mould, a decent pro should be able to take what youve got and work with it and improve it imo


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## robbest3offthetee (Mar 13, 2011)

I would never work against your natural shot,if you want to play a different shot learn how to play that,but dont go against your natural ability.....


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

fundy, i may have giveen the wrong impression of pro 2.  he was convinced 90% of my bad shots were grip related, and after working on it hard my new neutral grip feels natural. if i was being picky id say it maybe be every so slightly strong, but its marginal by such a small percentage that the pro is nothing by complimentry about the new grip when ever he see's me practicing.  He's a sound guy too with free emergency lessons pre medal rounds to get me through the games, and i often get a text around 3/4 sunday afternoon to ask how my golf has been that weekend so he's very personal which is nice.

Im going to try and get a video some time this week, as i said the only down side is "soft cuts soft cuts" but then i do question that if he gets me hitting these cuts, it will enable me to have both shot shapes in the bag.

Robs best, this was my thoughts, if its natural for you to draw the ball then why fight a shot that 90% of golfers actually strive towards.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2011)

No pictures on a scorecard. Do you want to hit the shot that gets you round low or the shot that makes you happy. I guess you need to go back to the 2nd teacher and have a chat with him (if you are still intending to use him) and explain your concerns. Any decnet pro should listen to their pupils and explain what they are trying to achieve with you and their rationale. If you aren't happy after that maybe look at another pro (or go back to the 1st if you can).

If you are having hooking issues and from personal experience, it sounds as though you are coming in too far from the inside and getting the club trapped and so having to use the hands to square it up. Get it right or clear the body enough and it'll go straight or with draw and get it wrong and it'll go left. I had a freebie bit of coaching from HID's boss at Sand Martins and he put a plastic range basket on the inside so I had to make a steeper swing and feel as though I wanted to cut it or hit fades. I'm guessing this is exactly what the 2nd pro is doing and that all that has happened is that you haven't trusted his reasons and regressed a little into the habits and ways of the 1st pro.

Neither method sounds wrong. I think you need to find something (and someone) you trust explicitly and go with it from there. Itis worth thinking though that a hook will run further hand a fade and so in summer it could put you in a lot of trouble with the extra roll


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## fundy (Mar 13, 2011)

Seems like he has a lot going for him that you don't want to give up on.

Ive been down a slightly similar path since getting back into the game. Because I knackered my left knee when I first started back I had no faith in hitting over my knee, so got lazy with a very strong grip and a handsy action, lots of draws (and the odd horror snap hook).

Have worked very hard in neutralising the grip (and am still not fully there)but the more I work on it the more I have the option to be able to hit the ball either way (though I still need more rotation in my hips and trust that my knee will facilitate this)

Even 3/4 months after starting to work on the grip I still hit 15-20 shots with a club with a moulded grip on each time I practise, yet on course I still feel the grip slipping back to stronger, especially the top hand. Not sure if youve used one but they can be good to reinforce getting the hands correct and giving you a "self check" tool

Maybe your best approach is actually to have this chat with him, have you said that you are worried he is teaching you against your natural shot? Do you have specific goals for your lessons or groups of lessons?


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

homer, its funny you say this about the plastic basket as we have used the same drills, we have also used powerlines set up for cuts, and the best drill ive seen and used was three balls on a diagonal line approx 4 inches appart, if you come from the inside you collect all 3 balls and in teh range bay can make yourself look a right tit, get it right and you swipe the middle one cleanly leaving teh inner and outer ball where they are.... if its hard to understand i can knock up a picture.

i trust pro 2 in he's methods, he must be doing something right or my hc wouldnt be dropping and i wouldnt be winning medals. in a recent daily mail classic singles match i was on the range an hour before my game and couldnt hit a ball, a quick fix lesson not only got me through my game, but i was 3 up at one stage against a 6 h/c'er from a local course and finally halfed my match on the 18th,  he must be half decent to get me through a match for a half when an hour before i couldnt hit anything more than aa 7iron without the hookers.


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## robbest3offthetee (Mar 13, 2011)

Oddsocks, If the pro is teaching you to hit,soft cuts,soft cuts,but still enabling you to keep your draw all well and good,but instead of, doesnt sound right to me,go with how you feel,thats more important...


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

Seems like he has a lot going for him that you don't want to give up on.

Even 3/4 months after starting to work on the grip I still hit 15-20 shots with a club with a moulded grip on each time I practise, yet on course I still feel the grip slipping back to stronger, especially the top hand. Not sure if youve used one but they can be good to reinforce getting the hands correct and giving you a "self check" tool

Maybe your best approach is actually to have this chat with him, have you said that you are worried he is teaching you against your natural shot? Do you have specific goals for your lessons or groups of lessons?
		
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I suggested to him about getting another 6iron to match my current set and having one of these moulded grips fitted as a self checker.... he advised that my grip no needed no work in he's opinion and i would be wasting my money.

I havent had a chat with him yet, this was tuesdays thing.  we do have goals and its quite good in our technique.  if im struggling with one thing, for example short game, we will spend a good chunk of time on that.  in my 4th lesson he turned up after id warmed up and i was ripping everything, from short irons to 4irons... he watched me work through the bag from pw, 8i, 6i, 4i... hitting 3 balls with each, and after 3 drives said " we better get this short game sorted as any long game tweeking would be a waste"... 

Ive never been worried about him teaching me against my natural shot, but today i got thinking if im not going to break this natural draw, why not maanage it.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

If you are having hooking issues and from personal experience, it sounds as though you are coming in too far from the inside and getting the club trapped and so having to use the hands to square it up. Get it right or clear the body enough and it'll go straight or with draw and get it wrong and it'll go left.
		
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this is exactly the issue.  is there a way of working on timing instead to cler of the body rather than change my hole swing plane.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2011)

I've been working the whole winter about getting more on top of the ball and compressing it. Initially it was to stop the huge lift I have in my downswing but also to get me coming on more of a down rather than around angle. For me it is about feeling that the hips are level and turning our rather than going up and down or sliding but that is just a personal swing thought.

The only thing I can recommend for tempo is Tour Tempo. It is a series of tunes (better than the demos) that give you a 3:1 beat at differing swing speeds. It really helped me 

http://www.tourtempo.com/mp3s/tracks2.html

I've a CD I can burn if you want to send me a blank CD and a return stamped address enelope. It isn't as easy as it sounds as you have to wait for the trigger beep or beat and not try and pre-empt it


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

homer, thats taking it serious, and i may well take you up on it, other option is trying to put it on the iphone and see how i get on.  like you it seemed althought there wasnt aalot of hip turn and more slide, and we have worked on that too...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2011)

I was a real hip slider. If you look back at Greg Norman in his prime and look at the way he slid and the right foot dragged along the ground through impact that was me. Great if you are Greg Norman but way to inconsistent if you are Homer. Spin the hips out too soon and its off right as a block or weak slice. Don't sping in time and we're back to the trapped club and going left.

By trying to feel on top of the ball I'm not so trapped. I've lost a lot of my shots going right where I spin out and if I do get them I can usually feel that is what I've done.

Ironically I've always felt more comfy with a flatter rounder swing and so I've been going back to that in recent weeks and trying to encompass the hip turn and feeling of my right shoulder and sternum over the ball into that. It is starting to work as yesterday proves but needs some refining.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 13, 2011)

think im going to speak to my pro and ask if there is  way of helping clear the ball without changing swing plane.  it seems that my plane naturally returns to where it is now, so if thats my natural plane it may be worth looking at clering the body and this may deliver more consistant results instead of complete swing plane changes.........


dam this game!


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## chris661 (Mar 13, 2011)

Personally I would not change my natural shot whatever it is, I went to a new pro for a lesson on thursday and he never asked about shot shape but said we will just be working on consistency and impact position. I reckon I would have left otherwise


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## percy_layer (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't want to make suggestions behind your pros back, you could ask your pros opinion on the following drill.

Sounds like you could do with getting control of the club and clubface a bit more.

Set up a Tour Stick or similar about 10 yards in front of the ball on the ball to target line. Line up as if the ball would hit the stick but try and fade it round it. When you can do it consistently try and alternate between a fade round the stick to target and a draw round the stick to target. Ideally the ball will only turn a few feet or a couple yards at most, not really looking to turn it 20 or 30 yards in this drill.

I would always recommend sticking with your natural shape, but you have more control of the ball flight if you can also turn it the other way. Would also reduce the chances of your swing getting too extreme one way or the other.


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## Region3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I can't remember who it was, but I'm sure I read a famous pro from years ago changed his shot shape from a natural draw to a natural fade because their bad shot was a hook and wanted to eliminate it as a potential card wrecker from their game.

Maybe that's his reasoning, rather than he thinks everyone should play with a cut?


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 14, 2011)

I do not think I have a natural swing shape really. I know why I draw too much and I know why I fade too much when I do.

I think naturally I hit it generally anywhere but straight


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## DCB (Mar 14, 2011)

You'll not get into as much trouble with a 'soft cut' and you may find your distance control inmproves slightly.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 14, 2011)

DCB, i think this is he's theory, a soft cut doesnt bounce violently and a so a soft cut would be a safe shot, but i dont want to spend years fighting a shot that is natural.  i do agree a soft cut that stops would be more consistent than a draw that can bounce on depending on the ground it lands on.


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## USER1999 (Mar 14, 2011)

A mate of mine has spent years working on a soft cut. It has knocked 30 yards off his drives. He has recently gone back to his natural draw, and is hitting it miles. He is a good golfer too, but his coach thought he would be more consistent with the fade. I can't see it. I play with him every week, and he is much better off with the draw.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 14, 2011)

Well I'm going to have a long chat tomorrow with the pro and see what the outcome is,


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## Oddsocks (Mar 15, 2011)

back from tonights lesson and after an hour lesson and a details chat things are moving through.  

After discusssing this thread and what was going on with my thoughts regarding fighting a natural shot shape, he went through the process of explaining why he is fighting me on this soft cuts thing.  

after spending all of my golfing time playing with a natural draw he has me aiming for soft fades to exagerate the feeling of swinging out to in.  in the first batch of lessons we worked on a neutral swing path to combat the strong draw , but it seems that my swing keeps working its way back to in to out swing path.  After going through the video's and comparing them it seems that at the top of the back swing my "triangle of light" is quite small and my hands are pretty flat level with my shoulder, this is stopping me getting back to the ball square meaning im getting handsy amoungst other things which is giving me a block right, or a pull hook.  by working on a exagerated out to in swing plane, im coming back down more on plane and getting a more consistent strike with a closer dispersion rate, and more importantly it enables me to hit 4i's pretty dam straight which tells me we are working in the right direction.

As a drill i was hitting half swing 5i working on cutting them around the 100 yard marker, aiming for massive cuts... after doing this for around 25 balls he asked to hit one straight..... ping.... perfect strike with a penertrating ball flight.  something ive been missing for a month or too.

im gonna run with him on if for another 2 lessons before re-assessing things, i should have a swing to post on here saturday morning from the last 5 lessons.  

What was interesting is if you compared my swing from last week, my arms were about 3 foot outside of plane at the top of the back swing, after a full hour lesson and a re check my arms were pointing directly at the ball at the top of the swing, with my hands more above my right shoulder and a bigger trianglee of light, .....


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2011)

after spending all of my golfing time playing with a natural draw he has me aiming for soft fades to exagerate the feeling of swinging out to in.  in the first batch of lessons we worked on a neutral swing path to combat the strong draw , but it seems that my swing keeps working its way back to in to out swing path.  After going through the video's and comparing them it seems that at the top of the back swing my "triangle of light" is quite small and my hands are pretty flat level with my shoulder, this is stopping me getting back to the ball square meaning im getting handsy amoungst other things which is giving me a block right, or a pull hook.  by working on a exagerated out to in swing plane, im coming back down more on plane and getting a more consistent strike with a closer dispersion rate, and more importantly it enables me to hit 4i's pretty dam straight which tells me we are working in the right direction.
		
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Sounds like I wasn't a million miles out with my original post. Sometimes I do know roughly what I'm talking about.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 15, 2011)

Looks that way.


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## JustOne (Mar 15, 2011)

after a full hour lesson and a re check my arms were pointing directly at the ball at the top of the swing, with my hands more above my right shoulder and a bigger trianglee of light, .....
		
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...another slicer is born


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## Oddsocks (Mar 15, 2011)

I think he's pushing the exaggerated slice to get me back neutral james, what's your feelings?


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## JustOne (Mar 15, 2011)

I think you should have some lessons with me so we can push you through the sound barrier and get you to comfy single figures... you know you want it!!


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## Oddsocks (Mar 15, 2011)

If your up for the challenge


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## JustOne (Mar 15, 2011)

Anytime you're ready to be parted with some cash I'm available 

I don't think it will be a challenge at all. Few hours on the practice ground/range and we'll find your game


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## USER1999 (Mar 15, 2011)

If you ever want to find mine you are going to need a flippin big atlas, and a magnifying glass.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 16, 2011)

J1, see pm


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## jammydodger (Mar 16, 2011)

Just caught up with this thread. I can relate to everything youre saying Oddsocks , as this was pretty much my game a few years ago. Always had a nice natural draw that turned into a massive hook a few times a round or when trying to not hook i'd hold the club off for a nice big block right.

Although my draw was a thing of beauty and got many admiring comments it was doing my head in. Since coming back to golf a couple of years ago i've worked very hard on getting a nice soft fade off my drives but staightened my irons out. Mostly worked on grip and finding a slight out to in swing path. My scoring is better and i'm much more in control of my bad shots. Occasionally i'll come over the top and blast it straight left but we all get it wrong sometimes dont we ?

The good thing is that when i require a nice draw round trees or whatever i've just got to go back to my natural set up and there it is.

Keep working at it as in the end you'll have a much more reliable game to move forward with.


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## Oddsocks (Mar 16, 2011)

well ive just enrolled on another course of 5 lessons, one of which was used last night, if i cant get this soft cut thing nailed byt then it will total 20 lessons and then its over to justone to see what he can do....


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