# Muirfield, women, the R&A and The Open



## Jimaroid (May 19, 2016)

So, decision made, Muirfield vote against admitting women as members.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/201...votes-against-allowing-women-to-join-as-memb/

And the R&A respond.



			
				The R&A said:
			
		


			Going forward we will not stage @TheOpen at a venue that does not admit women as members.
		
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https://twitter.com/RandA/status/733249767476764672

I applaud the R&A. This is going to get messy.


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## hombre_paulo (May 19, 2016)

Yup well done R&A.


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## rosecott (May 19, 2016)

The Dishonourable Company buries its head deeper into the sand.


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## timd77 (May 19, 2016)

And I see that slow play was given as one of the reasons. Seriously? Dinosaurs and I hope the r&a mean what they say and stick to it.

Sadly, in the end, it's the majority who miss out because of a few idiots.


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## Norrin Radd (May 19, 2016)

their club their rules 



















and their hole they are digging fo themselves


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## guest100718 (May 19, 2016)

If the R&A say they wont hold the open there naymore then that all thats needed.

No problem them staying men only


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## Cheifi0 (May 19, 2016)

I am intrigued to find out what this special lunch arrangement is?  The whole situation it ridiculous.  I wouldn't want to join a place like that even if they opened it up to all.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

Somehow I don't think the members will be at all bothered about losing the Open. It must be a major inconvenience for a couple of months every time it comes around and the course has already built up a worldwide reputation so they aren't really losing out.


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## freddielong (May 19, 2016)

I don't have a problem with it it's their private club they should be able to run it as they please, I wouldn't have an issue with women only clubs either.


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## Mike07 (May 19, 2016)

To be honest, who are we to comment on their policies and the way they run their club. They voted against women joining so now they have to live and accept to consequences by that decision.

Personally I don't agree with it, but it's their choice not ours


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Somehow I don't think the members will be at all bothered about losing the Open. It must be a major inconvenience for a couple of months every time it comes around and the course has already built up a worldwide reputation so they aren't really losing out.
		
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You are correct, the members have never been too keen on hosting The Open.
R&A may move across the fence to Archerfield to keep an Edinburgh venue


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

Interestingly, you could actually argue that womens golf is more sexist than mens. I've just looked at the entry form for the Open Championship and it clearly states that women can enter. Somehow I don't think that is the case with the womens British Open.

Do you think men should be allowed to enter that?


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## Mike07 (May 19, 2016)

If they hosted the open 3 years ago I assume the next time is not for a while anyway?


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## Ethan (May 19, 2016)

Presumably many members who voted against were simply voting to take themselves off the Open roster, as well as there being a few old misogynists. The R&A wil have made their likely responses quite clear in advance. 

Pity. I remember some great Opens there.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2016)

Both decisions are fine in my eyes. The club belongs to the members and if they want to keep it single sex then that is their choice. Plenty of women only gyms around here that exclude me as a man so you can't have it every way. Equally once women are excluded then it should not be considered as an Open venue. All open venues should be available to men and women.

As has been said, the name of Muirfield is strong enough to cope without being a current Open venue. Woburn, Sunningdale, Wentworth all manage without being part of the Open rota and people would queue up to play them. No skin off the Muirfield noses.


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## cookelad (May 19, 2016)

In a hilarious bit of irony, as 'Outbrain' has picked up 'women' and 'golf', at the bottom of the page, where The Telegraph is slamming Muirfield for sexism, you can find links to "The 15 Hottest LPGA Players 2015" and "15 Stunning Female Athletes That Are Way Out Of Your League"


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Somehow I don't think the members will be at all bothered about losing the Open. It must be a major inconvenience for a couple of months every time it comes around and the course has already built up a worldwide reputation so they aren't really losing out.
		
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They don't care a jot whether they get an open again or not


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## freddielong (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interestingly, you could actually argue that womens golf is more sexist than mens. I've just looked at the entry form for the Open Championship and it clearly states that women can enter. Somehow I don't think that is the case with the womens British Open.

Do you think men should be allowed to enter that?   

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I am not sure it's still the same but the women's tour is the only sex specific the pga is open to both


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## Fyldewhite (May 19, 2016)

Some of the statements by the club, and their letter to members are interesting to say the least. Foursomes, speedy play, lunch arrangements (??), not sure what any of it actually means tbh but sounds like they value their customs and traditions which is of course their prerogative. Interesting comment about a separate course/clubhouse. Played at Formby Ladies GC the other week and that's exactly what they have. I don't know the rules around it but seems to work.

Overall though it's just delaying the inevitable and in 50 years time it will be comical that this sort of thing was ever an issue. Try telling a kid out of school now that you could smoke in the office 25 years ago and they think you are having a laugh. Same sort of thing.....tradition is one thing but times change....just that time seems to run more slowly in some places.


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## Slime (May 19, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			their club their rules
		
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100% :thup:



freddielong said:



			I wouldn't have an issue with women only clubs either.
		
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100% :thup:


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## Capella (May 19, 2016)

cookelad said:



			In a hilarious bit of irony, as 'Outbrain' has picked up 'women' and 'golf', at the bottom of the page, where The Telegraph is slamming Muirfield for sexism, you can find links to "The 15 Hottest LPGA Players 2015" and "15 Stunning Female Athletes That Are Way Out Of Your League"
		
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Nice observation. And somehow stuff like that bothers me way more than a few old rich guys who want to keep to themselves in their private exclusive man-cave. As long as long legs under a short skirt are seen as way more newsworthy/interesting than how well a woman actually plays, gender equality in golf is a very long way off.


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## srixon 1 (May 19, 2016)

Perhaps they cannot afford the red paint for the tee markers.

On a serious note, I bet most of them are members at other clubs anyway. Being a member at Muirfield is just a status thing.

Do they employ women staff I wonder?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

srixon 1 said:



			Do they employ women staff I wonder?
		
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Yes they do Steve both in the restaurant/bar and in the office. They don't get paid though, they get free membership but have to keep it quiet


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

srixon 1 said:



			Perhaps they cannot afford the red paint for the tee markers.

On a serious note, I bet most of them are members at other clubs anyway. Being a member at Muirfield is just a status thing.

Do they employ women staff I wonder?
		
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They have red tee's just now. Have had for years


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## WillC (May 19, 2016)

I am quite surprised they didn't get enough votes, is anyone else?

I don't agree in principle, but echo the their club their rules mantra.


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## Three (May 19, 2016)

Well the committee recommended that they allow women, it required a 2/3 majority and they got 64% in favour. 

So technically they did vote in favour, just not enough to reach the weird 2/3  requirement.


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## DCB (May 19, 2016)

A couple of bad winters will see off the old geezers and they'll take another vote


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## Dave3498 (May 19, 2016)

Three said:



			Well the committee recommended that they allow women, it required a 2/3 majority and they got 64% in favour. 

So technically they did vote in favour, just not enough to reach the weird 2/3  requirement.
		
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It was that close, but it's like all democratic votes, if the result turns out wrong, then they have another vote later until they get the right answer.  That's what will happen at Muirfield in a couple of years.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2016)

DCB said:



			A couple of bad winters will see off the old geezers and they'll take another vote 

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I think it was a once in a generation vote


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## Garush34 (May 19, 2016)

Its a shame it has come to this, I like Muirfield as a course and really enjoyed the Open there in 2013 and was looking forward going back in the future, hopefully it will happen if their policy changes. But it is the right decision from the R&A for me, they have to grow the game and every time they go to Muirfield and Troon this issue is always brought up which detracts from the Open its self.


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## patricks148 (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Somehow I don't think the members will be at all bothered about losing the Open. It must be a major inconvenience for a couple of months every time it comes around and the course has already built up a worldwide reputation so they aren't really losing out.
		
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yes, agree i know a few members and they won't be heart broken to lose it.


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## Tarkus1212 (May 19, 2016)

I'd echo the "their club, their rules" sentiment and also applaud the R&A for taking Muirfield off the Open rota. 

Does anyone know how much hosting The Open would be worth to a golf club? My club is one of the qualifying courses for the Women's British Open this year and I know we get nothing for hosting it, other than losing the use of one of our courses for two days.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interestingly, you could actually argue that womens golf is more sexist than mens. I've just looked at the entry form for the Open Championship and it clearly states that women can enter. Somehow I don't think that is the case with the womens British Open.

Do you think men should be allowed to enter that?   

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I have just checked the ladies open entry form, its open to you if you are 'of the female gender', so there you have it, its just like a marriage women are always right and can have it both ways. :whoo:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			I have just checked the ladies open entry form, its open to you if you are 'of the female gender', so there you have it, its just like a marriage women are always right and can have it both ways. :whoo:
		
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I'm in touch with my feminine side, does that count?


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## Tarkus1212 (May 19, 2016)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			I have just checked the ladies open entry form, its open to you if you are 'of the female gender', so there you have it, its just like a marriage women are always right and can have it both ways. :whoo:
		
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Isn't it the same at your golf club? There are plenty of competitions at my club which are open to all members regardless of age or gender but plenty more that are open to women only, far more than there are men only comps.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm in touch with my feminine side, does that count?
		
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Looking at your avatar your more of a looker than some women golfers


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			Isn't it the same at your golf club? There are plenty of competitions at my club which are open to all members regardless of age or gender but plenty more that are open to women only, far more than there are men only comps.
		
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that's my point it seems to be equality for women but with more favourable terms for them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Looking at your avatar your more of a looker than some women golfers 

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You smooth talking charmer. What are you doing on Friday night?


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## Hickory_Hacker (May 19, 2016)

I'm delighted to hear that the result of their vote was not to have a Ladies Section, as per what was predicted, good for them. 

As others have said, hosting the Open is pretty much an inconvenience and they don't need it or those that I know there can't be bothered with it ... A brilliant result and now said female (not sure how many wanted to join) will just have to go further down Scotland's Golf Coast or back up it and look for another club, there's enough to choose from :thup:

As for RandA trying to make out that they're living in a modern world, what a load of nonsense, all they're doing is watching their own backs.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2016)

A real spanner in the works here but how long before a transgender woman applies to play in a womens open? Has that been addressed yet? There are clear power differences between men and women so this causes real issues, not just in golf but all sports.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2016)

Very good descision from the R & A 

Poor from Muirfield and it's a shame some are still stuck in the old ages 

Not allowing female members is IMO very poor


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## Blue in Munich (May 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think it was a once in a generation vote

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According to the SNP that's every year isn't itâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A real spanner in the works here but how long before a transgender woman applies to play in a womens open? Has that been addressed yet? There are clear power differences between men and women so this causes real issues, not just in golf but all sports.
		
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I guess if legally she is 'of the female gender' then she would be eligible


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2016)

My thoughts as well but if the power differential shows through then it will distort matters. All organisations will have to look at this, if they have not already. Imagine if a male pro golfer, eg Ian Poulter for example, decided to change gender. He would win every tournament. It would be silly. Awkward one.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My thoughts as well but if the power differential shows through then it will distort matters. All organisations will have to look at this, if they have not already. Imagine if a male pro golfer, eg Ian Poulter for example, decided to change gender. He would win every tournament. It would be silly. Awkward one.
		
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I should have thought if that happened the other ladies would have to up their games accordingly, however I assume ladies tournament golf courses are not of the same length as the male equivalent therefore maybe power/length is not quite so important.


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## backwoodsman (May 19, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A real spanner in the works here but how long before a transgender woman applies to play in a womens open? Has that been addressed yet? There are clear power differences between men and women so this causes real issues, not just in golf but all sports.
		
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Not quite sure on what basis I think it, but I think that one is already sorted.

Muirfield. Wrong decision but their choice.

R&A. Right decision but wrong reason. Smacks of arse-covering, which is never the right reason.


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## Hickory_Hacker (May 19, 2016)

I've just heard on the tranny that Nocola Sturgeon is extremely disappointed that Muirfield won't allow women members to join their club ... That's coming from someone that really couldn't give a hoot but she must be seen and heard to be making some noise. 

3 cheers to the geezers at Muirfield ne:


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## ArnoldArmChewer (May 19, 2016)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			I've just heard on the *tranny* that *Nocola* Sturgeon is extremely disappointed that Muirfield won't allow women members to join their club ... That's coming from someone that really couldn't give a hoot but she must be seen and heard to be making some noise. 

3 cheers to the geezers at Muirfield ne:
		
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I just scan read that and thought you were dropping a bombshell, oh well.  :lol:


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## DCB (May 19, 2016)

Anyone know where this Muirfield Golf Club she talked about is located ?


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## CliveW (May 19, 2016)

According to the BBC Scotland news tonight, "Of the 600 golf clubs in Scotland, 20 are men only, whilst 25 are women only."


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

DCB said:



			Anyone know where this Muirfield Golf Club she talked about is located ?
		
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Very good Dave :rofl:


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## Tarkus1212 (May 19, 2016)

CliveW said:



			According to the BBC Scotland news tonight, "Of the 600 golf clubs in Scotland, 20 are men only, whilst 25 are women only."
		
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I think what would be more relevant is how many single gender golf *courses* there are. I know of Lundin Ladies, are there any others?


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## tugglesf239 (May 19, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			I think what would be more relevant is how many single gender golf *courses* there are. I know of Lundin Ladies, are there any others?
		
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Formby Ladies?


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

A real shame that any golf course is male only.  My club is enriched by the women golfers who are members.  

For me, a course that has a male section (club) and a female section is totally different to one where women are not welcome at all.

There are course that operate this way (e.g. Royal Troon) where men and women can play the courses(s).  Is this the case at any female only clubs?

I am pleased that the R&A has made this decision, although personally disappointed as I was a Marshall in 2013 and it was a very memorable week.

Hopefully Muifield (or the "honourable" company - how pompous is that name?) will see sense and allow a woman's section in the very near future.

Hopefully Turnberry will also be removed from the list of Open venues due to their owner being a complete ****!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2016)

I applaud the R&A for their decision.


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## Tommo21 (May 19, 2016)

Lots of views here but the word for a long while was it was never going to happen. So no shock around this area. The OPEN, big loss to East Lothian every few years...but they don't care. The R & A they have a cheek, they've only just let women in themselves and now they're laying it down.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2016)

Tommo21 said:



			Lots of views here but the word for a long while was it was never going to happen. So no shock around this area. The OPEN, big loss to East Lothian every few years...but they don't care. The R & A they have a cheek, they've only just let women in themselves and now they're laying it down.
		
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The R&A are not a course owning club.


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## Capella (May 19, 2016)

The golf course at Formby Ladies is not women only (as opposed to the golf club, which is). They explicitly welcome men to play the course on their website. I don't know how many actually do, though.

As for the women only golf clubs: I guess they were formed mostly out of necessity at times when their already existent male counterparts would not allow the ladies to play. So now stating that purely male golf clubs are alright, because they are also purely female ones around is slightly hypocritical. Also, I don't think that any of those women only clubs hosts a LPGA major (correct me if I am wrong)

That said, since there are differences in the male and female game, it might be very pleasant for a woman to play a course that was actually designed with female players in mind. (I really want to play Formby Ladies, actually, just to compare if it feels any different to a predominantly "male" golf course)


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The R&A are not a course owning club.
		
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They are affiliated to St Andrews links in the same way the Honarable Company are now affiliated to Murfield. Regardless of ownership


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## Stuart_C (May 19, 2016)

So because Muirfield won't change their rules to suit the R&A, they're refusing to hold the open at arguably the best open course?

Pathetic decision.


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			So because Muirfield won't change their rules to suit the R&A, they're refusing to hold the open at arguably the best open course?

Pathetic decision.
		
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Straight to the point :rofl:

Has anyone asked any women if the would join? I know one lady golfer who has played Muirfield and said she wouldn't like to be a member there. She may even post to tell us.


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			So because Muirfield won't change their rules to suit the R&A, they're refusing to hold the open at arguably the best open course?

Pathetic decision.
		
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Totally disagree there on both your points!


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			Totally disagree there on both your points!
		
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Both points? So what course on the rota is better than Muirfield?


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			They are affiliated to St Andrews links in the same way the Honarable Company are now affiliated to Murfield. Regardless of ownership
		
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What do you mean by hgec is now affiliated to Muirfield? 

I thought that the hceg built Muirfield?


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## EarCat (May 19, 2016)

I don't see how a private club choosing to have only male members is relevant when it comes to hosting a tournament for non-members in which all the competitors are males.

Feel like we as golf fans are going to miss out as Muirfield is the best course on The Open rota imho, going to have to suffer through more Opens held at easy tracks like Royal Liverpool and St. Andrews or characterless courses like Lytham.


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Both points? So what course on the rota is better than Muirfield?
		
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Old course, Royal Troon,  and Carnoustie are all better to watch.
Not so familiar with the courses in England and I am really looking forward to Northern Ireland


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## Stuart_C (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			Totally disagree there on both your points!
		
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No problem whatsoever but that is my opinion.  

If Muirfield had agreed to allow women members then the R&A would've carried on playing their elite competition there.

Instead, to protect their own image  they've decided to take them off their own rota. 

It's very much do as what we want or you can't have the Open. I've not played Muirfield everyone that I've spoken to who has,they've all said it's the best.


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## EarCat (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			Old course, Royal Troon,  and Carnoustie are all better to watch.
Not so familiar with the courses in England and I am really looking forward to Northern Ireland
		
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Old Course is too easy for the pros, don't like seeing -15 winning the most prestigious golf tournament in the world, even if it is the most historic and famous course in the world. Carnoustie and Muirfield are the two best on the rota atm IMHO. 

I wish it was at RCD rather than Portrush though as it is both the best links course in the world and 20 minutes drive from my house. &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			What do you mean by hgec is now affiliated to Muirfield? 

I thought that the hceg built Muirfield?
		
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It did, but it makes no odds to the club which was my point about comparing it to the R&A. A club is a club


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			Old course, Royal Troon,  and Carnoustie are all better to watch.
Not so familiar with the courses in England and I am really looking forward to Northern Ireland
		
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Ah, better to watch but not better. I wonder which courses people prefer playing


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

EarCat said:



			Old Course is too easy for the pros, don't like seeing -15 winning the most prestigious golf tournament in the world, even if it is the most historic and famous course in the world. Carnoustie and Muirfield are the two best on the rota atm IMHO. 

I wish it was at RCD rather than Portrush though as it is both the best links course in the world and 20 minutes drive from my house. &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
		
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If have Carnoustie 3rd behind Royal Birkdale


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Ah, better to watch but not better. I wonder which courses people prefer playing
		
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That does not matter, at the Open it is the spectators in attendance and around the world that count.

I have not played Muirfield despite living a few miles from it - that tells you something!

I have played the others I mentioned.  Love TOC and RT.  Did not love Carnoustie but love the drama it brings - the last 5 holes are outrageous!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2016)

The R&A right now is trying to help grow the game of golf , to encourage people of all age and sex to play the game 

It would go against everything they are trying by hosting their premier event at a club that has decided to discriminate against a group of golfers based on their sex 

It maybe a wonderful course but it has a core number of members who are stuck in the 1800's


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## NWJocko (May 19, 2016)

Shame for East Lothian it won't be there every 9/10 years, hopefully not too big an impact on local businesses. Enough golf tourism there I'm sure but must have brought in huge amounts of cash locally when it was on.

Sticks in my craw a bit the R&A preaching given the "token" efforts of their invitee for lady members, bit like Augusta.


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## Tommo21 (May 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The R&A are not a course owning club.
		
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Correct....


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## chippa1909 (May 19, 2016)




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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			They are affiliated to St Andrews links in the same way the Honarable Company are now affiliated to Murfield. Regardless of ownership
		
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So are St Rules....a women only club.
If the St Andrews Links Trust decided to ban people over 6'2'' tall from playing on the Old Course at St Andrews the R&A would not be able to over rule them.


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## Stuart_C (May 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The R&A right now is trying to help grow the game of golf , to encourage people of all age and sex to play the game 

It would go against everything they are trying by hosting their premier event at a club that has decided to discriminate against a group of golfers based on their sex 

It maybe a wonderful course but it has a core number of members who are stuck in the 1800's
		
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Phil, I disagree. Golf will  grow regardless of whether or not Muirfield has lady members.


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## chippa1909 (May 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So are St Rules....a women only club.
If the St Andrews Links Trust decided to ban people over 6'2'' tall from playing on the Old Course at St Andrews the R&A would not be able to over rule them.
		
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But the R&A could if they wanted move their HQ.


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## lex! (May 19, 2016)

Utter disgrace and a terrible slur on our sport. Pathetic bunch of old f@rts. In this day and age? Such an embarrassment.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Phil, I disagree. Golf will  grow regardless of whether or not Muirfield has lady members.
		
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That might be true but the R&A can't have a charter that includes having the game open to all then have their premier event at a club that doesn't allow women to join 

It would be hypocritical of them.


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## lex! (May 19, 2016)

Just seen a bit about it on the news on TV. Showed a bunch of old gits in tweed breeches at the club who could barely make 20 yards off the tee. Wearing the correct regimental tie however. Typical of attitudes north of the border. Little lady stays at haeme.


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So are St Rules....a women only club.
If the St Andrews Links Trust decided to ban people over 6'2'' tall from playing on the Old Course at St Andrews the R&A would not be able to over rule them.
		
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I'm unsure what point you are making here eld yin. Muirfield hasn't banned anyone from playing there. All the R&A have said is no further open championships, the HCEG have probably said thanks


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 19, 2016)

lex! said:



			Just seen a bit about it on the news on TV. Showed a bunch of old gits in tweed breeches at the club who could barely make 20 yards off the tee. Wearing the correct regimental tie however. *Typical of attitudes north of the border. Little lady stays at haeme.*

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Seriously??


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

lex! said:



			Utter disgrace and a terrible slur on our sport. Pathetic bunch of old f@rts. In this day and age? Such an embarrassment.
		
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Muirfield isn't full of old farts, im sure many are younger than most of this forum.

I know one member personally who is not 40 yet


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

lex! said:



			Just seen a bit about it on the news on TV. Showed a bunch of old gits in tweed breeches at the club who could barely make 20 yards off the tee. Wearing the correct regimental tie however. Typical of attitudes north of the border. Little lady stays at haeme.
		
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Shocking statement. What has being north of the border to do with it?


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That might be true but the R&A can't have a charter that includes having the game open to all then have their premier event at a club that doesn't allow women to join 

It would be hypocritical of them.
		
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Club or course? There is a difference.

I'd bet St Andrews is littered with clubs affiliated to the links trust who don't allow women.


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Muirfield isn't full of old farts, im sure many are younger than most of this forum.l

I know one member personally who is not 40 yet
		
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HE must have got HIS name down (with 25 letters of support) when HE was about 5 years old!

Either that or his name is Rear-Admiral Chumley-Warner...&#128512;


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## lex! (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Shocking statement. What has being north of the border to do with it?
		
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Aye. Right!


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			HE must have got HIS name down (with 25 letters of support) when HE was about 5 years old!

Either that or his name is Rear-Admiral Chumley-Warner...&#128512;
		
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Wrong on both accounts


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

lex! said:



			Aye. Right!
		
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Is this code for something else?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2016)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...ck-women-from-joining-is-embarrasing-an/amp/#


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Wrong on both accounts
		
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Spill the beans then!


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## Jimaroid (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			I'd bet St Andrews is littered with clubs affiliated to the links trust who don't allow women.
		
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Yep, sort of. In my club's case women can be house members but not playing members. The ladies clubs have the same rights to course access so it's relatively fair overall. 

Due to an odd clause it was only last year that it was true to say both genders has equal access due to the way the courses were created. The R&A is two entities now but in its original members club form they funded and built the New course and thereby have a right to claim every other tee time on the New if they choose. So until quite recently it was a male only privilege even though they didn't exercise it.


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## Val (May 19, 2016)

KenL said:



			Spill the beans then!
		
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Unsure what you want me to say?

I know a member who works in the oil industry in Aberdeen who under 40


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## HankMarvin (May 19, 2016)

I have no problem with their decision, good on them I say don't let outsiders push you into something. Good for them not to be pushed into something by the PC brigade. I mean why would a private members course let outsiders tell them what to do, the Open has lost a great venue a bad decision by the R&A.......


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## lex! (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Muirfield isn't full of old farts, im sure many are younger than most of this forum.

I know one member personally who is not 40 yet
		
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Tranny?


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## KenL (May 19, 2016)

Val said:



			Unsure what you want me to say?

I know a member who works in the oil industry in Aberdeen who under 40
		
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Did he have parentage or some other help to get in?  I hear (from a friend) that 25 letters of support is what is required.

I also hear that you cannot maintain a competitive hcp there?


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## Birchy (May 19, 2016)

Wondered when this would rear its head again 

I think the R&A are damaging the open by withdrawing Muirfield from the rota. Biggest crime of all imo.

Not read all the thread but have we had the old, there's only more Female only clubs than make because they were forced into it by big hairy brutes not letting them play?


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## Slab (May 20, 2016)

Just seems so out of sync with modern society it'd be great to hear the rational of the couple hundred that voted against change

I'm not buying that they used the vote as they don't want to stage The Open. If you didn't want to host it then withdraw, simple


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## Smiffy (May 20, 2016)

Slab said:



			Just seems so out of sync with modern society
		
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Good, innit???
Good luck to them if they want to stay men only.
Breath of fresh air in this politically correct world of ours.
They don't like it up 'em.


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## Slab (May 20, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Good, innit???
Good luck to them if they want to stay men only.
Breath of fresh air in this politically correct world of ours.
They don't like it up 'em.
		
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Agree that they definitely should not allow women as members to be politically correct, that'd be more tragic

Didn't think a sufficient number actually wanted women in the club but did think enough would not have a good reason to exclude them any longer      

C'est la vie


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2016)

Still, I think we can all agree that with this, and the inevitable media uproar when the Open starts in Troon this year who also follow the same antiquated policy, it will do the perception of golf no end of good.

Meanwhile, in a dark room, 1000s of hard working people who are doing their very best to make the game more inclusive are crying gently to themselves.


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2016)

Also can I point out that equality of the sexes is not really something you should strive for as it is ' politically correct' . It's just basic human decency. 

But then again what would you expect from a yurt eating liberal lefty.


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## Stuart_C (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That might be true but the R&A can't have a charter that includes having the game open to all then have their premier event at a club that doesn't allow women to join 

It would be hypocritical of them.
		
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Troon don't allow lady members and the Open is there this year!! 

The game is open to all, but Muirfieilds membership has restrictions and there's plenty of other courses who have the same.

This decision by the R&A to remove Muirfield from the open rota based on who they let join is pathetic. PC gone mad.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			The game is open to all, but Muirfieilds membership has restrictions and there's plenty of other courses who have the same.

This decision by the R&A to remove Muirfield from the open rota based on who they let join is pathetic. PC gone mad.
		
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So it's not open to all at Muirfield then which goes against what the R&A are wanting with the game to be more inclusive ( as opposed to be Politically correct ) 

And any other course that has the same restrictions will no longer host an Open. Troon are having a vote to allow lady member and are expected to allow them even though there is a ladies club at Troon ( expect to merge ) 

Their restrictions are based purely on the sex of the person - that to me is outdated and wrong


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

I'm not sure why people are getting wound up by Muirfield' s decision. So the club has membership restrictions but so what, those excluded groups are still welcome to play the course.


Unlike Augusta, maybe they should be stripped of the Masters


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## Stuart_C (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it's not open to all at Muirfield then which goes against what the R&A are wanting with the game to be more inclusive ( as opposed to be Politically correct ) 

And any other course that has the same restrictions will no longer host an Open. Troon are having a vote to allow lady member and are expected to allow them even though there is a ladies club at Troon ( expect to merge ) 

Their restrictions are based purely on the sex of the person - that to me is outdated and wrong
		
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Its their course, they shouldn't be told what to do by the R&A. Whether or not it's morally right is another argument, but it's a pathetic decision to remove if not the best course on The Open Championship rota.

If Troon vote against allowing lady members before The Open this year, do you think it should be cancelled?


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## Duckster (May 20, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Troon don't allow lady members and the Open is there this year!! 

The game is open to all, but Muirfieilds membership has restrictions and there's plenty of other courses who have the same.

This decision by the R&A to remove Muirfield from the open rota based on who they let join is pathetic. PC gone mad.
		
Click to expand...

But Troon also has the Ladies Golf Club which plays over the same courses.  I'm assuming this is similar to St Rule's playing the St Andrews Links


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2016)

Whether PC or not, or sexist or not, or whatever label you want to put on it, it's just naÃ¯ve and politically stupid. If they'd said yes, how many female golfers would have applied? Do they really think they would have been killed in the rush, or that the current committee would have been overrun with females wanting chintzy curtains. They could have voted yes but managed the influx without upsetting the gin swigging idiots


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2016)

lex! said:



			Just seen a bit about it on the news on TV. Showed a bunch of old gits in tweed breeches at the club who could barely make 20 yards off the tee. Wearing the correct regimental tie however. Typical of attitudes north of the border. Little lady stays at haeme.
		
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Did anyone else notice that one of the old gits looked awffy like Victor from Still Game.:lol:

Re age, I played Muirfield quite a bit in my youth and they had a surprisingly young membership.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Its their course, they shouldn't be told what to do by the R&A. Whether or not it's morally right is another argument, but it's a pathetic decision to remove if not the best course on The Open Championship rota.

If Troon vote against allowing lady members before The Open this year, do you think it should be cancelled?
		
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They aren't being told what to do though

The R&A hasnt told them to allow lady members 

The R&A have decided that if the course isn't going to be inclusive then it's not going to hold their premier event because it goes against what they are trying to do 

The vote at Troon is after the Open and Troon has a club that allows lady members to play the course


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## MashieNiblick (May 20, 2016)

Tommo21 said:



			The R & A they have a cheek, they've only just let women in themselves and now they're laying it down.
		
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I think that was the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, not the R&A. The two are now (since 2004) separate entities. Lots of confusion in the media at the time over that. 

http://www.randa.org/TheRandA/AboutTheRandA/About-Us

http://www.randa.org/Heritage/The-Royal-Ancient/The-Royal-Ancient-Golf-Club



Val said:



			They are affiliated to St Andrews links in the same way the Honorable Company are now affiliated to Murfield. Regardless of ownership
		
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Not sure about that. Isn't Muirfield owned by The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers? Their website says they bought the site in 1891. The Old Course is public land managed by the St Andrews Links Trust, a charity set up by Act of Parliament.

In any case as indicated above the R&A is the governing body for Golf and is now completely separate from the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, which has playing rights at The Old Course.  The R&A isn't really a "golf club" at all.

Right decision by the R&A given its aims to promote the game and to make it more inclusive.


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## Stuart_C (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They aren't being told what to do though
*
The R&A hasnt told them to allow lady members 

The R&A have decided that if the course isn't going to be inclusive then it's not going to hold their premier event because it goes against what they are trying to do 
*
The vote at Troon is after the Open and Troon has a club that allows lady members to play the course
		
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So indirectly they're telling them what to do.

Troon and Troon ladies are two separate clubs, so as membership they're not very inclusive 

If Muirfield had voted 80% in favour of allowing female membership, do you honest believe The R&A would've dropped Muirfield off the rota?


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Its their course, they shouldn't be told what to do by the R&A. Whether or not it's morally right is another argument, but it's a pathetic decision to remove if not the best course on The Open Championship rota.

If Troon vote against allowing lady members before The Open this year, do you think it should be cancelled?
		
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Sorry Stuey baby. Got to disagree with you now. Absolutely no one is telling the gents at Muirfield what to do. They had a free vote, and made the decision all by themselves. The R&A also made their own decision. No bullying, no coercion, no attempt to drag them into the modern age. 

Also, there are plenty of amazing courses that don't host the Open, and some ordinary ones that do. If Troon vote to carry on as currently, then I'd expect them to be removed from the Open rota.


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## chippa1909 (May 20, 2016)

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-the-club-should-marry-a-member-a7038876.html

Peter Allis there pouring oil on the troubled Muirfield waters. :mmm:


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## Blakey1215 (May 20, 2016)

It's the members of Muirfield who decide who can be members of their club, likewise it's the R&A who decide where The Open is held. 
Can't say that I agree with the members of Muirfield, but it's their club.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			So indirectly they're telling them what to do.

Troon and Troon ladies are two separate clubs, so as membership they're not very inclusive 

If Muirfield had voted 80% in favour of allowing female membership, do you honest believe The R&A would've dropped Muirfield off the rota?
		
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Muirfield can decide who can be a member of their golf club - no one is telling them any different 

The R&A can determine the criteria on which a golf club must adhere too to be able to host the premier golf comp in the sport


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## rulefan (May 20, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			their club their rules
		
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Their noses and their faces


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## chippa1909 (May 20, 2016)

I wonder how many folk who are outraged at Muirfield's policy are supporters of the monarchy?
I would love to be a member of the Royal Family...


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## Qwerty (May 20, 2016)

Would there still be the same Moral outrage and same old Stereotypes thrown around if this was about a Ladies Club voting to stay a single Sex Club and losing the Ladies Open?  I doubt it very much and rightly so.

If being a member of a Single Sex Golf Club makes the members of the HCEG happy then just let them get on with it, the R&A have Done what was expected of them.

The HCEG has just become a single sex Golf club which is now no different to St Rule, Elie Ladies, Lundin Ladies, Wirral ladies, Formby ladies and the Ladies Putting Club of St Andrews and personally Id be uncomfortable seeing the lady members of those clubs forced into allowing Male members if they're currently happy with the make up of their club.

Or am I missing something? Is anything Male Orientated/ Dominated seen as sexist and requires breaking down and the opposite Quaint, Traditional and requires preserving. I honestly don't see the difference.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

As a complete aside, it is dress down day in my office today. Women can wear shorts and short skirts but men have to wear long trousers or jeans.

I would like to wear shorts on a warm day.


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## User62651 (May 20, 2016)

The 2/3 required to carry a decision is strange in that 36% won over 64%, not very democratic. 

To understand it if you're a male (dare I say it older) member of said club and you put your 'selfish' hat on you've now got no Open which means more undisturbed golf, not weeks of interruption every 8 or 10 years, the course will remain quieter with enough tee times for the gentleman members to get the uncrowded fairways that such club exclusivity and fees demand, there are dozens of other courses in the area after all. You dont want the Open or other big events, you just want the peace and quiet of your club/course. If the reputation of the course suffers so be it, less people come which is good for you as there are more free tee times and the club doesn't need money, the membership fees cover that fine. If you're a club of 650 men and do suddenly admit female members, how many are you supposed to admit - another 650 or maybe 300? That will overwhelm the nature of the club as it is, so if you do admit female members, do you need to reduce the male membership to accomodate numbers, reduce the membership fee etc etc. 
Looks like a simple 'let ladies in' call but it's maybe not that simple really.
The press stuff will die away and they'll be left with an even more exclusive and private club, will suit many of them to a tee be that right or wrong.

I think its a shame they didn't move for change, this is a golf club, you must treat people equally. Peter Alliss is out of touch on this and it reinforces the stereotype of how most of the public perceive golf clubs alas, embarrassing for Scotland too.

Maybe wannabee POTUS Trump will put in a shout for his Balmedie links as an alternate venue! If we don't comply he nukes us!:mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			I wonder how many folk who are outraged at Muirfield's policy are supporters of the monarchy?
I would love to be a member of the Royal Family...
		
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What's the connection or relevance ?


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## Crazyface (May 20, 2016)

Val said:



			Muirfield isn't full of old farts, im sure many are younger than most of this forum.

I know one member personally who is not 40 yet
		
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LOL.....well I think it was meant to be funny


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## Sweep (May 20, 2016)

I guess it's up to each individual party to decide for themselves. Muirfield have decided not to admit women members, the R&A have decided not to hold the Open there. Fair enough. However,  I do think its a bit rich of the R&A to set themselves up as the bastions of gender equality when they only voted to allow women members themselves in September 2014 ( whether they have a golf course or not is irrelevant in regard to gender equality and admission to their organisation).
The bad publicity is a shame for the game and the whole matter of both genders playing equally needs to be resolved. I don't think anyone has all the answers though.


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## Jimaroid (May 20, 2016)

Also worth noting that there's 200+ years of antagonism and rivalry that exists between the R&A and the HCEG. It's no real surprise that the HCEG don't really care much for the opinion the R&A have about how to manage membership.

To be perfectly honest, in this situation everyone comes out a winner. HGEC as a private members club get to do what their members want. The R&A get to take the moral high ground as the arbiters of equality and leadership of the game. It satisfies both groups of people in terms of equality and exclusivity.

The only downside is the Open won't be at Muirfield in the next couple of decades. That will probably change in the future and, really, is it a bad thing that the Open rota gets to feature some new courses? The rota already was quite packed and getting to move it around a little bit seems a good thing.


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## cliveb (May 20, 2016)

Just read about their tradition of playing foursomes. Why would anybody want to join a golf club where you only ever get to play half a round? Seems to me that the reason for being a member there must be for the perceived social status it affords rather than to enjoy the golf.


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## chippa1909 (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's the connection or relevance ?
		
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Is discrimination by accident of birth, or "breeding" any better than discrimination by gender?


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## Capella (May 20, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Would there still be the same Moral outrage and same old Stereotypes thrown around if this was about a Ladies Club voting to stay a single Sex Club and losing the Ladies Open?  I doubt it very much and rightly so.

If being a member of a Single Sex Golf Club makes the members of the HCEG happy then just let them get on with it, the R&A have Done what was expected of them.

The HCEG has just become a single sex Golf club which is now no different to St Rule, Elie Ladies, Lundin Ladies, Wirral ladies, Formby ladies and the Ladies Putting Club of St Andrews and personally Id be uncomfortable seeing the lady members of those clubs forced into allowing Male members if they're currently happy with the make up of their club.

Or am I missing something? Is anything Male Orientated/ Dominated seen as sexist and requires breaking down and the opposite Quaint, Traditional and requires preserving. I honestly don't see the difference.
		
Click to expand...

The difference is, that these ladies clubs were formed as an answer to a club policy by their male counterparts, because that's what the ladies had to do if they wanted to play golf and have a club life as well. Because they weren't allowed in. Show me the one exclusively male only golfclub that was formed as a response to a ladies lcub already in existence, because the guys weren't allowed in and I am willing to agree with you.


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## chippa1909 (May 20, 2016)

Or put another way, my kids (irrespective of gender) have a hell of a lot greater chance of becoming HCEG Captain than they have of becoming Monarch.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

cliveb said:



			Just read about their tradition of playing foursomes. Why would anybody want to join a golf club where you only ever get to play half a round? Seems to me that the reason for being a member there must be for the perceived social status it affords rather than to enjoy the golf.
		
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I played it in either a 3 or 4 ball, can't remember which. There are loads of other clubs that are still 2ball/4somes......Rye and West Sussex spring to mind.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			Is discrimination by accident of birth, or "breeding" any better than discrimination by gender?
		
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Nope still not seeing the connection with the Royal family and Muirfield 

Is there discrimination within the Royal Family ?


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## Slime (May 20, 2016)

lex! said:



			Just seen a bit about it on the news on TV. Showed a bunch of old gits in tweed breeches at the club who could barely make 20 yards off the tee. Wearing the correct regimental tie however. Typical of attitudes north of the border. Little lady stays at haeme.
		
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I've been on this forum for a number of years and I'm seriously struggling to remember a more ridiculous post!
I have absolutly no issues for single-sex clubs, be they male or female.


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## MashieNiblick (May 20, 2016)

Sweep said:



			However,  I do think its a bit rich of the R&A to set themselves up as the bastions of gender equality when they only voted to allow women members themselves in September 2014 ( whether they have a golf course or not is irrelevant in regard to gender equality and admission to their organisation).
		
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That was the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews. Since 2004 they have been a separate entity to the R&A which runs the Open. See my post above.


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## Slime (May 20, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



			I wonder how many folk who are outraged at Muirfield's policy are supporters of the monarchy?
I would love to be a member of the Royal Family...
		
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Has this been posted on the wrong thread?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/36338306


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## lex! (May 20, 2016)

Slime said:



			I have absolutly no issues for single-sex clubs, be they male or female.
		
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Well done. However, the point, is that this episode is an embarrassment for the country and for the sport.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

lex! said:



			Well done. However, the point, is that this episode is an embarrassment for the country and for the sport.
		
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The country ? 

Nothing to do with the country as a whole and shouldn't have any reflection on Scotland


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## lex! (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The country ? 

Nothing to do with the country as a whole and shouldn't have any reflection on Scotland
		
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36340197


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

lex! said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36340197

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Again the country hasn't voted it's members of a golf club who could be different nationalities


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## Birchy (May 20, 2016)

Capella said:



			The difference is, that these ladies clubs were formed as an answer to a club policy by their male counterparts, because that's what the ladies had to do if they wanted to play golf and have a club life as well. Because they weren't allowed in. Show me the one exclusively male only golfclub that was formed as a response to a ladies lcub already in existence, because the guys weren't allowed in and I am willing to agree with you.
		
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That's the one I was waiting for, always a popular feature on these threads :rofl:

Great reasoning, I imagine they all merged once rules changed and ladies were admitted? Thought not


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## JakeWS (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope still not seeing the connection with the Royal family and Muirfield 

Is there discrimination within the Royal Family ?
		
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A female can marry the King and become a Queen, however a man who marries the Queen may not become King.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

lex! said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36340197

Click to expand...

Blah blah blah

There are single sex private clubs for both genders in all areas of life and they are perfectly entitled to do what they want. Get over it. 

My home club has lots of female members that were quite happy to pay a reduced subscription and not play on a Saturday morning. Now due to all the liberal do-gooders who enforced sexual equality, they now pay the same as male members and have access to the course whenever they want but they have no interest in playing on a Saturday morning because they have other things they would rather do instead.

They are over the moon about it  

Works for me though because they now subsidise my subs  :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

What about all the clubs that discriminate on wealth that you can't play because they are members only and us mere mortals can't afford to join them?

Augusta, Queenwood, Skibo, Loch Lomond, all the upscale US country clubs that host Majors such as Shinnecock and Congressional. I don't hear anyone banging on about those clubs.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			What about all the clubs that discriminate on wealth that you can't play because they are members only and us mere mortals can't afford to join them?

Augusta, Queenwood, Skibo, Loch Lomond, all the upscale US country clubs that host Majors such as Shinnecock and Congressional. I don't hear anyone banging on about those clubs.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that's something you can compare 

You aren't stopped from joining because of what sex you are. You aren't stopped from joining - you have a choice to join it. 

It's not discrimination 

Just like Aston Martin don't discriminate if you can't afford one of their cars


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

cliveb said:



			Just read about their tradition of playing foursomes. Why would anybody want to join a golf club where you only ever get to play half a round? Seems to me that the reason for being a member there must be for the perceived social status it affords rather than to enjoy the golf.
		
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You obviously haven't ever experienced the joys (and pressure) of Foursomes!

Solves the problem of slow play (and short daylight hours) too!

As for the actual decision...regrettable, but quite likely simply a vote to ditch The Open! However, as a private club, they are entitled to determine their own destiny! Pleased the R&A reacted as it did, and quickly, to minimise any possible damage to 'the game' though.


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## Qwerty (May 20, 2016)

Capella said:



			The difference is, that these ladies clubs were formed as an answer to a club policy by their male counterparts, because that's what the ladies had to do if they wanted to play golf and have a club life as well. Because they weren't allowed in. Show me the one exclusively male only golfclub that was formed as a response to a ladies lcub already in existence, because the guys weren't allowed in and I am willing to agree with you.
		
Click to expand...

In this case is "The Difference" relevant?  Im struggling to form an opinion based on the reasons of clubs being formed 60, 70,maybe 100 years ago.

Id agree with you also if The HCEG weren't allowing Ladies to play the course or if Muirfield was the only course in the area.
If I thought that anyone was being denied a chance to play the game, or denied the opportunity of becoming a member of a local club that would meet their requirements It wouldn't sit right with me.

As I see it though theres plenty of opportunity for anyone that wants to play the game and find a club that's suitable for them. I'm not sure if a problem exists in Germany but in the UK all the single sex golf clubs are in golfing hotspots with an abundance of courses/clubs so Theres something for everyone, I don't see anyone being denied anything of any significance.


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## Qwerty (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think that's something you can compare 

You aren't stopped from joining because of what sex you are. You aren't stopped from joining - you have a choice to join it. 

It's not discrimination
		
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let's be honest Phil.. Wayne the Bricklayer isn't getting in!   and the difference in this instance is that if the Muirfield vote swung the other way they would have to admit lady members (as did Augusta)  not just allow them to apply then bin the application because they aren't well connected or earn 100k + pa.

Its Their club though and their rules, Maybe it is discrimination but it isn't something I'll lose any sleep over.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			It is discrimination Phil because let's be honest... Wayne the Bricklayer isn't getting in!   and the difference in this instance is that if the Muirfield vote swung the other way they would have to admit lady members (as did Augusta)  not just allow them to apply then bin the application because they aren't well connected or earn 100k + pa.
		
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It's not discrimination at all - if Wayne the Brickie can afford to join and followed the joining process and a spot was available then I'm sure he would be allowed to join. If they say no because of his job then it's discrimination 

And if they allow ladies to join Murifield then they would go through the same application process as a man

It is their club and their rules - and right now their rules mean that they can no longer host the Open

It's rules IMO that are one of the biggest negatives in regards golf ( same with any same sex club ) and do nothing to help grow the game. It just adds to the perceived image that golf is full of dinosaurs and snobs.


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## chippa1909 (May 20, 2016)

JakeWS said:



			A female can marry the King and become a Queen, however a man who marries the Queen may not become King.
		
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So much like the Peter Alliss point about marrying their way in!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't think that's something you can compare 

You aren't stopped from joining because of what sex you are. You aren't stopped from joining - you have a choice to join it. 

It's not discrimination 

Just like Aston Martin don't discriminate if you can't afford one of their cars
		
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I've never seen any of those clubs on the 2fore1 scheme or offering cheap twilight deals so basically I am discriminated against......they don't want me on their hallowed turf


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## Capella (May 20, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			As I see it though theres plenty of opportunity for anyone that wants to play the game and find a club that's suitable for them. I'm not sure if a problem exists in Germany but in the UK all the single sex golf clubs are in golfing hotspots with an abundance of courses/clubs so Theres something for everyone, I don't see anyone being denied anything of any significance.
		
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There are no single sex golf clubs in Germany. I doubt there ever have been, but surely not after WW2. The whole concept is pretty inconceivable here. Maybe that is why it leaves me so puzzled. Golf was a very elitist and exclusive sport in Germany until about 20 years ago, with outrages entrance fees for golfclubs, no visitors allowed unless they were members of another golf club etc. So definitely not a sport that everybody could play or even try. But as far as I know it never was gender specific.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not discrimination at all - if Wayne the Brickie can afford to join and followed the joining process and a spot was available then I'm sure he would be allowed to join. If they say no because of his job then it's discrimination 

And if they allow ladies to join Murifield then they would go through the same application process as a man

It is their club and their rules - and right now their rules mean that they can no longer host the Open

It's rules IMO that are one of the biggest negatives in regards golf ( same with any same sex club ) and do nothing to help grow the game. It just adds to the perceived image that golf is full of dinosaurs and snobs.
		
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Why do a number of clubs still ask you to declare your occupation? 

I'm sure its not just to bulk up the application form.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I've never seen any of those clubs on the 2fore1 scheme or offering cheap twilight deals...
		
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They don't need to because their income is sufficient!



drive4show said:



			... so basically I am discriminated against....
		
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No you are not!



drive4show said:



			.....they don't want me on their hallowed turf  

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Perhaps!  But that's not necessarily 'discrimination'!


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## DRW (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is their club and their rules - and right now their rules mean that they can no longer host the Open

It's rules IMO that are one of the biggest negatives in regards golf ( same with any same sex club ) and do nothing to help grow the game. It just adds to the perceived image that golf is full of dinosaurs and snobs.
		
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Completely agree with this.:thup:


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## Qwerty (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not discrimination at all - if Wayne the Brickie can afford to join and followed the joining process and a spot was available then I'm sure he would be allowed to join..
		
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Totally sure?   

As I said ..... If the vote swung the other way The HCEG would have to been seen to be admitting lady members.. 
Do you see many builders vans on the car parks of the high end Surrey courses on a Saturday afternoon?


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## Val (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope still not seeing the connection with the Royal family and Muirfield 

Is there discrimination within the Royal Family ?
		
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Are you serious? Of course there is


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			They don't need to because their income is sufficient!



No you are not!



Perhaps!  But that's not necessarily 'discrimination'!
		
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If they won't allow me to play their course then it is a form of discrimination. Dress it up how you like.......race, creed, colour, sex, profession or whatever, it all amounts to the same thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Val said:



			Are you serious? Of course there is
		
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A connection or discrimination within the Royal Family ?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			If they won't allow me to play their course then it is a form of discrimination. Dress it up how you like.......race, creed, colour, sex, profession or whatever, it all amounts to the same thing.
		
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It's not discrimination unless they don't allow you join because of what you have posted above.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

Qwerty said:



			Totally sure?   

As I said ..... If the vote swung the other way The HCEG would have to been seen to be admitting lady members.. 
Do you see many builders vans on the car parks of the high end Surrey courses on a Saturday afternoon?
		
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Yep I know a plasterer who is a member at Wentworth


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not discrimination unless they don't allow you join because of what you have posted above.
		
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So denying me access to the course isn't a form of discrimination?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep I know a plasterer who is a member at Wentworth
		
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Wentworth is a proprietary course run to make a profit, not a private members course.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			So denying me access to the course isn't a form of discrimination?
		
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Nope not for me 

"*the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.*"

Doesn't fall into that definition for me


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope not for me 

"*the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.*"

Doesn't fall into that definition for me
		
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That definition gives examples not a definitive list. I'm sure if you dug deep enough you could add wealth (or lack of) to the list.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			That definition gives examples not a definitive list. I'm sure if you dug deep enough you could add wealth (or lack of) to the list.
		
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Being unable to afford something isn't discrimination - I can't afford a Porsche but they aren't discriminating against me because of their prices.


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			So denying me access to the course isn't a form of discrimination?
		
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You can't be discriminated against before you can't afford to play somewhere! 'Judge - Waitrose are discriminating against me because their bananas are more expensive than Tesco next door - I need compensation'. 

How people choose to spend money is exactly that - a choice. Your life decisions, career, family, location etc steer many of those choices. You dont choose your sex, skin colour, age etc. 

Claiming discrimination in this case is frankly insulting to those who have actually battled discrimination.

Muirfield, Womens only Gyms etc - absolutely fine if that's club policy, I don't have a problem with that choice. Just accept that choice may lead to certain consequences - such as not holding an Open Championship. Muirfield are fully within their rights, and the R&A have made a sensible decision following their choice.


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			You can't be discriminated against before you can't afford to play somewhere! 'Judge - Waitrose are discriminating against me because their bananas are more expensive than Tesco next door - I need compensation'. 

How people choose to spend money is exactly that - a choice. Your life decisions, career, family, location etc steer many of those choices. You dont choose your sex, skin colour, age etc. 

*Claiming discrimination in this case is frankly insulting to those who have actually battled discrimination.*

Muirfield, Womens only Gyms etc - absolutely fine if that's club policy, I don't have a problem with that choice. Just accept that choice may lead to certain consequences - such as not holding an Open Championship. Muirfield are fully within their rights, and the R&A have made a sensible decision following their choice.
		
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Great point.  Some idiots on here need to engage brain before posting at times.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 20, 2016)

As someone who loves golf and the ethos it encourages in young people I watched the news with great sadness. Yes it's their club and they are welcome to it.

The sight of a group of old men pontificating about why they wanted to exclude women sets a terrible example to parents and young people when we need to be encouraging them to play the sport we love. I accept the TV coverage may have been selective but were we proud to see our sport portrayed that way on prime time TV?

Peter Alliss' comments in the press this morning didn't help - he's considered part of the "establishment" which just reinforces the perception problem?

Sports funding for golf has already been cut - is this really going to help improve participation going forward? This will get WW coverage - they should be ashamed.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Claiming discrimination in this case is frankly insulting to those who have actually battled discrimination.
		
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Interesting response, please share with us your experiences of being discriminated against.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Great point.  Some idiots on here need to engage brain before posting at times.
		
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You can get down off your high horse, we are talking about a sports facility here not some unfortunate person that has had their life or family ripped apart.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			If they won't allow me to play their course then it is a form of discrimination. Dress it up how you like.......race, creed, colour, sex, profession or whatever, it all amounts to the same thing.
		
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But if you join, then they'll allow you to play *their* course! So no discrimination!

Whether you can/choose to join is your choice!

Wealth is not a 'protected characteristic' covered by the Equality Act btw!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			But if you join, then they'll allow you to play *their* course! So no discrimination!

Whether you can/choose to join is *your* choice!

Wealth is not a 'protected characteristic' covered by the Equality Act btw!
		
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No....it is very much the existing members choice not mine.


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interesting response, please share with us your experiences of being discriminated against.
		
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I have no inclination to give my life or family history to a bigot on an open forum thank you.


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## daverollo (May 20, 2016)

I very much doubt this would have had any media attention if the HCOEG hadn't build such a fantastic course that has hosted many Opens and was so high profile.

The majority of members voted in favour of allowing women to join, must be their constitution that meant 2/3rds were required to get it passed though.

Anyone claiming the R&A are just pandering to the PC brigade by denying them the chance to host any future Opens are missing the point.  The R&A will have come under pressure from the sponsors. Mercedes, HSBC, Mastercard, Rolex, Nikon, to name a few are world wide brands, that enjoy and pay for the mass exposure the Open provides.  They without doubt won't want any negative press associated with them being seen to be linked with a sexist event.  So the media and the faux outrage are to blame to some extent.  The R&A need that sponsorship to carry on distributing the money to promote the game world wide.

Personally I couldn't give two hoots.  If a private club (of any type) wish to restrict their membership then so be it. Lets face it 99.9% of men are likely to be restricted from joining if you don't know enough existing members and get your left tit out when shaking hands.  If it means that course will no longer host an Open then fine, there are plenty of quality courses that can cover the gap. Royal Liverpool was added in 2006 which was a great addition and I am looking forward to seeing Royal Portrush play host in 2019.  I played Muirfield many years ago, it was a wonderful experience, with 18 holes in the morning, lunch, cigars in the smoking room then back out for another 9.  But as courses go, doesn't make my top 5.


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## Smiffy (May 20, 2016)

chippa1909 said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-the-club-should-marry-a-member-a7038876.html

Peter Allis there pouring oil on the troubled Muirfield waters. :mmm:
		
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He's got it spot on in my book.
I'll never forget at Crowborough Beacon one day, three "ladies" were taking tee on the veranda whilst a Mens competition was on.
They heard four guys swearing like crazy on the 18th green and put in an official complaint.
Really upset a few people, and they introduced a new rule whereby ladies were banned from taking tea whilst mens competitions were taking place.


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## lobthewedge (May 20, 2016)

The course is over rated and the clubhouse looks and smells like a nursing home.  The Disheveled Collection of Incontinent Coffin Dodgers are very welcome to it! 

Well done R&A.


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## Dave3498 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I have no inclination to give my life or family history to a bigot on an open forum thank you.
		
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You can't be a bigot on an open forum.  Bigots, by definition are not wiling to listen to other points of view, so they wouldn't go near an open forum.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 20, 2016)

lobthewedge said:



			The course is over rated and the clubhouse looks and smells like a nursing home.  The Disheveled Collection of Incontinent Coffin Dodgers are very welcome to it! 

Well done R&A.
		
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I think the result of the vote is very disappointing and anachronistic but please spare us this type of drivel.

The course is most certainly not over rated and is regarded by most golf journalists and many players as probably the finest on the Open roster.

As for the clubhouse, who cares? when watching the Open , either on TV or "live" that is the last of my considerations.


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## Smiffy (May 20, 2016)

lobthewedge said:



			The course is over rated and the clubhouse looks and smells like a nursing home.  The Disheveled Collection of Incontinent Coffin Dodgers are very welcome to it!
		
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Damn!! I just won a fourball voucher for Muirfield and was going to post in "arrange a game" looking for 3 players to join me for Â£25.00 each.
I guess you don't want to come?


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## lobthewedge (May 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I think the result of the vote is very disappointing and anachronistic but please spare us this type of drivel.

The course is most certainly not over rated and is regarded by most golf journalists and many players as probably the finest on the Open roster.

As for the clubhouse, who cares? when watching the Open , either on TV or "live" that is the last of my considerations.
		
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Sorry if my drivel offended you, its a Friday afternoon, lighten the hell up!

I just know that I was entirely underwhelmed by Muirfield, and wouldn't rush back to play it.  All about opinions, even if they are drivel!


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## cliveb (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You obviously haven't ever experienced the joys (and pressure) of Foursomes!
		
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On the contrary, I have played plenty of foursomes. (Indeed my wife & I happen to be the current holders of our club's mixed foursomes trophy - not that we are likely to retain it this year!). I don't much like the format, partly because of the pressure you mention (hitting a bad shot and dumping your wife's brand new ball in a pond can result in a tense atmosphere :angry, but mainly because you just don't get into a good rhythm and only get to play half a round. I've played in foursomes matches where I haven't got to use my putter for the first 5 holes!

My point was that if Muirfield insist on their members playing foursomes, that's a club I wouldn't want to join (and would have thought nor would many others).


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## lobthewedge (May 20, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Damn!! I just won a fourball voucher for Muirfield and was going to post in "arrange a game" looking for 3 players to join me for Â£25.00 each.
I guess you don't want to come?
		
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Would sooner give my money to Trumpberry, the views are better.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I have no inclination to give my life or family history to a bigot on an open forum thank you.
		
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I'm not a bigot, I simply believe that private organisations should be entitled to set their own rules. As someone pointed out, there are as many female only golf clubs (and no doubt other organisations) as men only ones. I don't have any issue with them either. 

Bigot is quite a strong, offensive word. You shouldn't really call people that.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 20, 2016)

lobthewedge said:



			Sorry if my drivel offended you, its a Friday afternoon, lighten the hell up!

I just know that I was entirely underwhelmed by Muirfield, and wouldn't rush back to play it.  All about opinions, even if they are drivel!
		
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Fine, just say that you personally did not rate it. 

Don't suggest that a course is over-rated when it is consistently ranked in the top two or three in the British Isles and, as I said, regarded by many "experts" as probably the best on the Open roster. 

Personally I have never enjoyed my rounds on the West Course at Wentworth or Birkdale but that does not make them over-rated by the many who hold them in high regard.


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## patricks148 (May 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Fine, just say that you personally did not rate it. 

Don't suggest that a course is over-rated when it is consistently ranked in the top two or three in the British Isles and, as I said, regarded by many "experts" as probably the best on the Open roster. 

Personally I have never enjoyed my rounds on the West Course at Wentworth or Birkdale but that does not make them over-rated by the many who hold them in high regard.
		
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I agree,def not overrated, its a fantastic course, my personal favorite


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			I agree,def not overrated, its a fantastic course, my personal favorite
		
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Interestingly, I played it in a group of 12. Good course but everyone was a bit underwhelmed by it.


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## lobthewedge (May 20, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Fine, just say that you personally did not rate it. 

Don't suggest that a course is over-rated when it is consistently ranked in the top two or three in the British Isles and, as I said, regarded by many "experts" as probably the best on the Open roster. 

Personally I have never enjoyed my rounds on the West Course at Wentworth or Birkdale but that does not make them over-rated by the many who hold them in high regard.
		
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I'll be sure to PM you any opinions I may have in future before I actually post them. This is just in case you are not happy with the content or tone. I will be grateful if you could also cross reference my opinions with those of current experts and polls, heaven forbid I should go against the grain and have a differing point of view.

For the record, and just to clear up my original post, I do not believe all members at Muirfield to be 'Disheveled', 'Incontinent' or 'Coffin Dodgers'.  I am sure some of them are lovely chaps, and their clubhouse doesn't look or smell like a 'nursing home'.  This was a poor and misguided attempt at humour on a Friday afternoon for which I am truly sorry.  

Thankyou for keeping me on the straight and narrow.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

cliveb said:



			On the contrary, I have played plenty of foursomes. (Indeed my wife & I happen to be the current holders of our club's mixed foursomes trophy - not that we are likely to retain it this year!). I don't much like the format, partly because of the pressure you mention (hitting a bad shot and dumping your wife's brand new ball in a pond can result in a tense atmosphere :angry, but mainly because you just don't get into a good rhythm and only get to play half a round. I've played in foursomes matches where I haven't got to use my putter for the first 5 holes!

My point was that if Muirfield insist on their members playing foursomes, that's a club I wouldn't want to join (and would have thought nor would many others).
		
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They only insist on Foursomes for the afternoon rounds!


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

Dave3498 said:



			You can't be a bigot on an open forum.  Bigots, by definition are not wiling to listen to other points of view, so they wouldn't go near an open forum.
		
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Not really. A bigot is someone who is intolerant and unwilling to change opinion. There's plenty of bigotry in nearly every forum!


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm not a bigot, I simply believe that private organisations should be entitled to set their own rules. As someone pointed out, there are as many female only golf clubs (and no doubt other organisations) as men only ones. I don't have any issue with them either. 

Bigot is quite a strong, offensive word. You shouldn't really call people that.
		
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That wasn't an opinion I was querying, and in fact have stated I agree with that. Just like I agree with the R&A being allowed to choose who is and is not on the Open roster. 

The bigotry accusation was levelled at your views on what constitutes discrimination and is one I stand by. If you're offended by that then so be it, many more would be offended by your bigotry attitude than a word.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			He's got it spot on in my book.
I'll never forget at Crowborough Beacon one day, three "ladies" were taking tee on the veranda whilst a Mens competition was on.
They heard four guys swearing like crazy on the 18th green and put in an official complaint.
Really upset a few people, and they introduced a new rule whereby ladies were banned from taking tea whilst mens competitions were taking place.
		
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Yeah right....That's at least the 4th or 5th different club I've heard that story about!

As for PA's comments... He's absolutely correct about the origins of some Golf Clubs (or Societies/Companies as they were called) , particularly Scottish ones! Merchants is an obvious example, bur HCEG had its origin in Military and Legal streams of Edinburgh society, Duddingston was Banking and Insurance and there were others that I've forgotten (like Royal Burgess and Bruntsfield). I seem to remember that Musselburgh, later Royal Musselburgh, was originally predominately Fishing (and other merchants) - and there was a Musselburgh Ladies society there also! Blackheath in London was originally formed by (Scottish) courtiers of James VI/I.

And I actually rate it as one of the top 3 courses I've played - along with Carnoustie (most brutal), Royal Birkdale (the greatest 'test') Muirfield is the 'most pleasurable' for me, especially with the Lunch/Clubhouse experience. The clubhouse is, or at least 'was' actually pretty much an open changing room, so Anne in the office probably got used to seeing towel wrapped wrinklies wandering about! The silverware and paintings on display are simply amazing - certainly from a historical point of view!


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## Dave3498 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			Not really. A bigot is someone who is intolerant and unwilling to change opinion. There's plenty of bigotry in nearly every forum!
		
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Almost right.  A bigot is not being asked to change opinion, he/she is simple being asked to listen to other people's opinions. *I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life, your right to say it.'* is not a statement with which a bigot would agree.


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## patricks148 (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interestingly, I played it in a group of 12. Good course but everyone was a bit underwhelmed by it.
		
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played it a fair few times now and every time i enjoy it more.

playing again later on in the year.


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## Smiffy (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah right....That's at least the 4th or 5th different club I've heard that story about!
		
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You could be right Foxy old chap. It was an attempt at humour....


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			...
The bigotry accusation was levelled at your views on what constitutes discrimination and is one I stand by. If you're offended by that then so be it, many more would be offended by your bigoted attitude than a word.
		
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While i might lean a little towards the above (as edited by me), I'm definitely in agreement with....



drive4show said:



			...
Bigot is quite a strong, offensive word. You shouldn't really call people that.
		
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At least in textual form, where other methods of communication are not available!

'Intransigent' might be a better word to use! Similar meaning, without the stigma/offense attached to 'bigot'!


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Interesting response, please share with us your experiences of being discriminated against.
		
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I think the person is exhibiting what is called 'empathy'.  You don't need to be black, homosexual or Jewish to understand that equating the fact you can't buy a Porshe or afford to play at a golf club is in any way equivalent to being discriminated against due to your sex, colour or religion is frankly absurd. 

Not sure anyone has argued with the fact that technically they can do what they like.


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## DCB (May 20, 2016)

Guys, let's keep it on track and civil please. We don't want a good thread to drop off over the edge of the abyss.


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			While i might lean a little towards the above (as edited by me), I'm definitely in agreement with....



At least in textual form, where other methods of communication are not available!

'Intransigent' might be a better word to use! Similar meaning, without the stigma/offense attached to 'bigot'!
		
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I would suggest that it FAR more offensive to compare relatively moderate differences in wealth with genuine discrimination, and then reaffirm that point in an ongoing basis in the face of facts. 

That being said, point taken and noted, thanks. 

@Dave3498 - I agree with your last sentence, but not quite the first part. You're almost right though. &#128540;


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## GreiginFife (May 20, 2016)

Is Class Discrimination not a thing anymore then? Not always to do with money but many golf clubs still view certain social standings/origins/employment statuses with disdain.
A good friend of mine was rejected application at a prestigious club in Scotland due to being unemployed. He inherited a moderate amount of money in 2006 and made some wise investments that meant he hasn't had to work so he had to put unemployed in the occupation box on the application. Was he not discriminated against? 
Forum sages please let me inform him that he wasn't and it was probably just his face that was wrong.

Class and social discrimination is nothing to do with gender, race or sexuality but is still rife. 

On Muirfield, I don't think it's right but I also don't want to claim that I think the democratic right that has been exercised should be diluted due to political correctness or what is deemed socially acceptable. 
The Open is a male dominated (I say that because a woman could play in it, by the rules) event which has been taken away from one male dominated club (not course which allows women to play). Which to an extent just sits a bit funny with me.


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## Tommo21 (May 20, 2016)

Slab said:



			Just seems so out of sync with modern society it'd be great to hear the rational of the couple hundred that voted against change

I'm not buying that they used the vote as they don't want to stage The Open. If you didn't want to host it then withdraw, simple
		
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I think, to them, the vote was more important that the open. It was never a factor.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			I would suggest that it FAR more offensive to compare relatively moderate differences in wealth with genuine discrimination, and then reaffirm that point in an ongoing basis in the face of facts. 

That being said, point taken and noted, thanks. 

@Dave3498 - I agree with your last sentence, but not quite the first part. You're almost right though. &#128540;
		
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Maybe you have led a nice sheltered life in leafy Surrey and never experienced discrimination based on wealth or social class. I however have so I am speaking from personal experience.


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## TheDiablo (May 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Maybe you have led a nice sheltered life in leafy Surrey and never experienced discrimination based on wealth or social class. I however have so I am speaking from personal experience.
		
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First bigotry, now prejudice! Delightful. Any more? 

If you have experienced true discrimination in your life then I am sorry for you, it's something nobody in this day and age should have to go through. Not being allowed to play golf because you can't afford to join the club isn't social discrimination though, I hope you understand that at the very least.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 20, 2016)

TheDiablo said:



			First bigotry, now prejudice! Delightful. Any more? 

If you have experienced true discrimination in your life then I am sorry for you, it's something nobody in this day and age should have to go through. Not being allowed to play golf because you can't afford to join the club isn't social discrimination though, I hope you understand that at the very least.
		
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You say it isn't social discrimination, I say it is. We have a difference of opinion....fair enough, I don't have any issue with that. I do have an issue with insults being thrown at me though.

You stick to your opinion and I'll stick to mine. I'm out on this topic now.


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## Hickory_Hacker (May 20, 2016)

Irrespective of wealth ... There isn't anyone on this forum that could join the Honourable Chaps down at Muirfield and that's not discrimination it's just a fact :rofl:

3 cheers to them :cheers:


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## hovis (May 20, 2016)

Discrimination some of you are saying?.   how about  women drink for free nights at pubs and clubs ?  

there club their rules


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2016)

I believe that the decision was taken by Muirfield after reading the R&A pace of play report. It is a well known fact that ladies have to sit down to go for a wee while men can do so while standing up. As a result it is quicker for men to take a jimmy riddle in the bushes behind the halfway hut without the need to sit or wipe and so the pace of play is maintained. Allowing lady members could have added 20 or even 30 seconds to the average round. And the cost of providing She-Wee's (google it if you don't know) to each potential lady member meant it was prohibitive to allow them to join.

N.B. Some or all of the above might well be totally made up


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## ruff-driver (May 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I believe that the decision was taken by Muirfield after reading the R&A pace of play report. It is a well known fact that ladies have to sit down to go for a wee while men can do so while standing up. As a result it is quicker for men to take a jimmy riddle in the bushes behind the halfway hut without the need to sit or wipe and so the pace of play is maintained. Allowing lady members could have added 20 or even 30 seconds to the average round. And the cost of providing She-Wee's (google it if you don't know) to each potential lady member meant it was prohibitive to allow them to join.

N.B. Some or all of the above might well be totally made up

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Constipation sherlock


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## FairwayDodger (May 21, 2016)

Terrible decision, albeit one they were entitled to make. Great decision by the R&A, and the only thing they could do even though it means losing probably the best course from the open rota. It would have been several years before they hosted the open again anyway and it wouldn't surprise me if this issue is revisited before then. We may well find muirfield hosting the open round about the same time as it was next due anyway.

I had the pleasure of playing with a muirfield member yesterday and he was quite embarrassed and depressed about the whole situation. If just seven members had voted the other way it would have been a different story and a large majority voted for change so it's a bit harsh I think that the entire membership is being widely castigated.


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## backwoodsman (May 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Terrible decision, albeit one they were entitled to make. Great decision by the R&A, and the only thing they could do even though it means losing probably the best course from the open rota. It would have been several years before they hosted the open again anyway and it wouldn't surprise me if this issue is revisited before then. We may well find muirfield hosting the open round about the same time as it was next due anyway.

I had the pleasure of playing with a muirfield member yesterday and he was quite embarrassed and depressed about the whole situation. If just seven members had voted the other way it would have been a different story and a large majority voted for change so it's a bit harsh I think that the entire membership is being widely castigated. 

View attachment 19494

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I entirely agree FD, although to be fair, the same point (Muirfield, poor decision but theirs to make; R&A, good decision and also theirs to make) was made lonnnnnnnng ago in the thread. The rest of it just rambled on into the realm of fatuousness & pigheadedness, as this kind of thread usually does.

I dare say you're right. A significant majority of members voted for change - they must be disappointed. As would anyone be who loses out effectively on a technicality.


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## backwoodsman (May 21, 2016)

And a Ps:  Has the GM  site (link to the right ---->) got it wrong? They say 64% voted _against_ ?? I thought it was 64% who voted for?


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## FairwayDodger (May 21, 2016)

backwoodsman said:



			And a Ps:  Has the GM  site (link to the right ---->) got it wrong? They say 64% voted _against_ ?? I thought it was 64% who voted for?
		
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Yes. 64% voted for the change but a 2/3s majority was needed.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2016)

The decision has not gone down too well with the non golfing Scottish public.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-history-boys/


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## freddielong (May 21, 2016)

This is one of those stories that I really hate being in the media because they spin it to suit their agenda.

Forget what the papers have said and think about what has actually happened here,

Ok you have a 250 year old men only club deciding to take a vote to allow Women (is that negative or positive, I would say positive )

You have the committee of that 250 year old men only club actively canvassing members to vote for the changes ( again positive)

You get a good majority of members voting in favour of the changes (again positive)

The only negative is they were 7 members short of the 2 thirds that they needed.

The club are being castigated for trying to make a positive change, ok it didn't quite happen but they definitely tried.

If you were a men's only club now and you were thinking about trying something similar but were not certain that you could get it through, would you try, I don't think I would.

This is a positive thing spun to be a negative story.


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## Sats (May 21, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			their club their rules 



















and their hole they are digging fo themselves
		
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Clever boy, I nearly took the bait there!


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## Sats (May 21, 2016)

freddielong said:



			This is one of those stories that I really hate being in the media because they spin it to suit their agenda.

Forget what the papers have said and think about what has actually happened here,

Ok you have a 250 year old men only club deciding to take a vote to allow Women (is that negative or positive, I would say positive )

You have the committee of that 250 year old men only club actively canvassing members to vote for the changes ( again positive)

You get a good majority of members voting in favour of the changes (again positive)

The only negative is they were 7 members short of the 2 thirds that they needed.

The club are being castigated for trying to make a positive change, ok it didn't quite happen but they definitely tried.

If you were a men's only club now and you were thinking about trying something similar but were not certain that you could get it through, would you try, I don't think I would.

This is a positive thing spun to be a negative story.
		
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I'll agree that it's positive that they've performed the vote. Negative that there are still dinosaurs who could do with some euthanasia or 9mm re-education. Negative that the minority won that vote. 

All in all - I think golf needs to step up with the times,  as does other institutes/sports/whatever that doesn't include people based upon sex, disability, race or religion.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2016)

Just a quick, off the cuff thought. The vote was about gender. The club have said no, i.e. discriminating against that gender. The club have brought the game into disrepute, their actions impacting way beyond the gates of Muirfield. How about the SGU kicking them out?


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just a quick, off the cuff thought. The vote was about gender. The club have said no, i.e. discriminating against that gender. The club have brought the game into disrepute, their actions impacting way beyond the gates of Muirfield. How about the SGU kicking them out?
		
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if the SGU were to chuck them out, surely that would set a president and all single sex clubs  would have to be thrown out as well


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## Stuart_C (May 21, 2016)

If Muirfield's membership is full at this present time, what are they supposed to do to allow female members in? 

Ernie Els yesterday was on wireless talking about Muirfield and he said it's the best links track in the world and will be missed by many players on the tour.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			if the SGU were to chuck them out, surely that would set a president and all single sex clubs  would have to be thrown out as well
		
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Are they guilty of discrimination or not? Do you feel the SGU is correct to support discrimination? No one's stopping them from keeping their rules for their clubs, although they should, just saying you can't be part of the bigger golfing community.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Are they guilty of discrimination or not? Do you feel the SGU is correct to support discrimination? No one's stopping them from keeping their rules for their clubs, although they should, just saying you can't be part of the bigger golfing community.
		
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Then they would have to expel the ladies only clubs as well.
Plus Muirfield give the SGU a load of times over the winter to sell to fund junior golf in Scotland,


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			If Muirfield's membership is full at this present time, what are they supposed to do to allow female members in? 

Ernie Els yesterday was on wireless talking about Muirfield and he said it's the best links track in the world and will be missed by many players on the tour.
		
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This thread is full of worthy comments but I can't stop chuckling at the "wireless" comment. Come on StuartC who calls it a wireless anymore? &#128514;


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## Stuart_C (May 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This thread is full of worthy comments but I can't stop chuckling at the "wireless" comment. Come on StuartC who calls it a wireless anymore? &#128514;
		
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It will always be the wireless in our house.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This thread is full of worthy comments but I can't stop chuckling at the "wireless" comment. Come on StuartC who calls it a wireless anymore? &#128514;
		
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It's the waiting for the valves to warm up that really annoys him&#128514;&#128514;


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## Lord Tyrion (May 21, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's the waiting for the valves to warm up that really annoys him&#62978;&#62978;
		
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Love it. 

Stuart - Good to see traditions are still strong :thup: .


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## Hickory_Hacker (May 22, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			It will always be the wireless in our house.
		
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It's a Tranny in here and the foot stool is still a Pouffe!


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