# Do 3/4 handicap comps favour good golfers too much?



## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2013)

Where did the 3/4 handicap rule for competitions come from? I suspect that it was a scratch golfer that came up with it as it seems it favours the good golfers and penalises the higher handicappers.

I play in stableford competitions with the 3/4 rule in place and off an 18 handicap this costs me 4 shots and leaves me trying to play to 14. We have golfers off +1, scratch and 1 who don't lose any shots with the 3/4 rule and people off 28 who lose 7 shots. As a result if everyone was to play to their handicap I would shoot 32 points, the guy off the 28 handicap would shoot 29 points but the guys off +1 or scratch would shoot 36 points. 

I appreciate that the rule helps to eliminate bandits but surely there is a better way.


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## fundy (Feb 22, 2013)

I understand playing off 3/4 handicaps in team comps where its say best 2 scores from 4 to count (to negate the more in out nature of the higher handicapper where there bad holes arent penalised), if its individual golf then it should be off full handicap, for me there is no reason for it to be 3/4s (as per singles matchplay these days)


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## bladeplayer (Feb 22, 2013)

fundy said:



			if its individual golf then it should be off full handicap, for me there is no reason for it to be 3/4s (QUOTE]

totaly agree
		
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## Kellfire (Feb 22, 2013)

All the stats prove that even off full handicaps, the lower handicap will win most of the time. It should always be full handicaps.


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## USER1999 (Feb 22, 2013)

Pairs Better ball is 3/4. This does make sense to me. Full allowance would be a massacre. Higher handicapped players tend to be inconsistent, and squander their shots in handfuls, not dribs and drabs. Par par, treble, etc. 3/4 takes this into account.

Singles is full allowance, fine. Apparently.

That said, in the winter, with a shortened course, this also leads to a culling of the low guys.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			I appreciate that the rule helps to eliminate bandits but surely there is a better way.
		
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Doing this makes absolutely nothing to 'eliminate bandits' - if anything it's the opposite; they can consistently shoot 34-36 points without looking obvious, when others like you will make 32 on a good day.

The other think is that such competitions are by definition Non Qualifying, which in itself attracts bandits because they don't risk getting cut!

It has been suggested that there are organisers who deliberately do it because they know it *will* attract a larger field (of bandits) - and to a degree this has been proved with BB and AM/AM format Open competitions.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Pairs Better ball is 3/4. This does make sense to me. Full allowance would be a massacre.....
		
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with the current basis to handicapping this isn't the case, and the one countries Golf Union that has implemented full allowance for 4BBB has shown no evidence of massacre at all - it's simply removed the huge advantage that lower players have with this currently.

CONGU is looking to move to 90% but is concerned with the reaction, rather than any adverse competitive implications - the rubbish spouted over moving singles to full was incredible (and sometimes still is)

Our club league restricts the number of Cat 1 players in a team (it's played 4BBB) because of the inherent advantage that would be available to clubs soley on the basis of the number of available cat 1 players.

A review of all the 4BBB knockout competition results at our club over the last few years shows that the lower handicap teams have a significantly better record per match - and by the time you get to Senior golf, where there are few (if any) improving golfers, the lower handicappers really dominate in matches and knockouts.


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## scratch (Feb 22, 2013)

If a 28hcp has a good day and plays 10% better than his handicap, he will shoot 39 points. If a scratch golfer plays 10% better than handicap, he will score 36 points.

That's why 3/4 difference is fairer.


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## fundy (Feb 22, 2013)

scratch said:



			If a 28hcp has a good day and plays 10% better than his handicap, he will shoot 39 points. If a scratch golfer plays 10% better than handicap, he will score 36 points.

That's why 3/4 difference is fairer.
		
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Wow, seems we are going to go down the "I can make stats work how I want to route" lol

If a scratch golfer shoots his handicap off 3/4 he gets 36 points, a 28 capper off 3/4 gets 29 points - how can that ever be right unless you think there is a completely inherent flaw in the handicap system


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2013)

scratch said:



			If a 28hcp has a good day and plays 10% better than his handicap, he will shoot 39 points. If a scratch golfer plays 10% better than handicap, he will score 36 points.

That's why 3/4 difference is fairer.
		
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but this is matchplay not stableford and making 2 more points on a hole doesn't win 2 holes etc and you haven't taken into account the probability of the various outcomes (the handicaps give different probabilities)


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2013)

But if both play 10% better than their handicap in a competition off 3/4 then the scratch golfer will score 36 points while the 28 handicapper will only score 32.


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## scratch (Feb 22, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			but this is matchplay not stableford and making 2 more points on a hole doesn't win 2 holes etc and you haven't taken into account the probability of the various outcomes (the handicaps give different probabilities)
		
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There is no mention of matchplay in the OP, it only talks about stableford competitions. And my point is that a scratch player is hardly ever going to come in with 40+ points whereas a 28hcp will probably do it several times a season.


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## thecraw (Feb 22, 2013)

Golf is geared towards the high handicap golfer period. I can shoot a 27 on a hole and it comes down to a double bogie. I can then finish with another 16 blows and again it comes down to a double. If in between I play steady golf I can hit buffer due to this incredible rule. 

How many 3 handicap golfers do you see in monthly medals shoot net 58????


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## USER1999 (Feb 22, 2013)

Stroke play should always be full allowance. That's the whole point of having a handicap.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 22, 2013)

scratch said:



			There is no mention of matchplay in the OP, it only talks about stableford competitions. And my point is that a scratch player is hardly ever going to come in with 40+ points whereas a 28hcp will probably do it several times a season.
		
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my apologies for the hasty response - you are correct that the OP referenced stableford and only later posts moved into the matchplay environment.

as we are all handicapped to stableford now, the handicap basis for such competition is self evident.

equally the advantage to the lower handicap player is significant in medal play now, for the same reason ie we are handicapped to stableford not medal play. Play an event over 36 or 72 holes medal and the higher handicappers are completely scuppered - so few events are designed this way for those players 

my apologies again


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## scratch (Feb 22, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			my apologies again
		
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no problem duncan  :thup:


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## G1BB0 (Feb 22, 2013)

full handicap always, sod this 3/4 etc lark. So your off scratch, 5 or 10 and I am off 22. If it was the low guys winning all the time then the high handicap would say sod this I aint bothering as I have no chance or worse case doesnt play any comps at all, loses his handicap and becomes a casual/nomad. Its the guys who win the odd comp or are teeing off on the 1st off 20-28 that eventually (for some) get down to scratch or single figures/mid teens

Golf is unique in this way and we should embrace it not moan about it.

** G1BB0's waiver - if I get to single figures which is a big if I didnt post this ever and I go for 3/4 all the way


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## Val (Feb 22, 2013)

I disagree golf is geared towards high handicappers and 3/4 in Stableford is not right but would say no one should get 2 shots on a hole.


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## scratch (Feb 22, 2013)

To all you high handicappers......get off your lazy arses and start practicing   

:rofl:


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## G1BB0 (Feb 22, 2013)

we do! everyone has to start somewhere


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## USER1999 (Feb 22, 2013)

scratch said:



			To all you high handicappers......get off your lazy arses and start practicing   

:rofl:
		
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Why? There's no point? It just makes the game harder. Better to mess about in the high 20s and clean up.


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## G1BB0 (Feb 22, 2013)

miaow, thats harsh Murph, a lot of us would love to be in the teens or even lower!


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## USER1999 (Feb 22, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			miaow, thats harsh Murph, a lot of us would love to be in the teens or even lower!
		
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Never did master those smiley things!


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## Kellfire (Feb 22, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Golf is geared towards the high handicap golfer period.
		
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Yet the stats and the powers that be disagree.

If you continually choke against high handicaps because you can't handle the mental pressure of knowing you have to give shots, fair enough. Don't write that up to high handicaps having an advantage... they don't, they're lesser players.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 23, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Golf is geared towards the high handicap golfer period.
		
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Golf is many things for many people ...
I do agree stableford does favour the higher handicapper,
Strokeplay -  some can say favours the low handicapper , i think i favours good mid handicappers off 9 to 13 , not necessarialy one v one but in say  a weekly club comp , one or two of the mid guys are sure to have a good day.. 
Gross prizes favour low handicappers.. 
Then you have scratch cups , surely they favour the low handicapper in each section, i play in the 5-9 , surely they favour the 5 handicapper ... 

Golf for me is purely that , for me .. i play to lower my handicap & get better for me ..


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## Andy808 (Feb 23, 2013)

I read in an article somewhere (GM mag I think) where a study had been done to see how the full allowance had affected the win ratio between high and low handicappers in singles comps. 
Interestingly it was low handicappers who were moaning about the change to full allowance from 3/4 in singles as they thought it would mean the high HCers had an unfair advantage. The results showed a different story with results being closer to 50/50 but still slightly in favour of the low HCers but not to the extent it had been before the change. 
As for BB comps 3/4 is far fairer.


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## Oddsocks (Feb 23, 2013)

I like the 3/4 rule, it makes you focus, what I notice is if you look at comp wins, if a high carpet wins its normally a massive win ( 42/44+) where as a win from a cat 1 or cat 2 normally seems to be around the 38/39 mark.

A high capper on a day where he's swing is grooved can run away with things, the lower the HC, the lower the margin of success...


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## Foxholer (Feb 23, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			I do agree stableford does favour the higher handicapper,
		
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Can't agree with that - as handicap is a Stableford metric! Compared to Strokeplay it does though.



bladeplayer said:



			Strokeplay -  some can say favours the low handicapper , i think i favours good mid handicappers off 9 to 13 , not necessarialy one v one but in say  a weekly club comp , one or two of the mid guys are sure to have a good day..
		
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Compared to Stableford, I'd say it favours the low guys. Comps seems more likely to be won by someone off 11-16, only because that's where most 'reasonable or improving' guys are. On a good day, one of them (but no idea which) can shoot 5-6 below handicap. Much harder for a Cat 1 to do so and there are far fewer of them anyway.

When you use 3/4 handicap, you definitely give an advantage to the lower guys!


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2013)

It should be full for medal and stableford and 3/4 for matchplay. The reason is that the difference in hole scores in matchplay matter less, whether you lose the hole by 1 or 3 shots makes no difference.

If handicaps are accurate, higher handicappers should have an advantage in medal play, because the range of variation of their scores should be larger, and the winning score is essentially won by the player who has the biggest variation from normal (handicap) on the lower end of the range. Equally, higher players should have the biggest variation from normal on the high end, but that matters less.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethan said:



			If handicaps are accurate, higher handicappers should have an advantage in medal play.
		
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Whoa, are you for real? This is exactly the opposite of the truth in my experience. Stableford can cull those nasty 7, 8, 9+ scores off a high handicaps card but one bad hole in medal and a high handicapper's race is run.

Medal is most definitely for the low handicaps on average.


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## BTatHome (Feb 23, 2013)

Can't remember the last singles comp that I played that was 3/4 !!


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## rosecott (Feb 23, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I disagree golf is geared towards high handicappers and 3/4 in Stableford is not right but would say *no one should get 2 shots on a hole*.
		
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Can I assume that you never had a handicap over 18 before you achieved your current handicap? I know some lower handicappers who say no-one should get a shot on a par 3 - in fact the Winter Alliance in our county is run on that basis.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 23, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Can I assume that you never had a handicap over 18 before you achieved your current handicap? I know some lower handicappers who say no-one should get a shot on a par 3 - in fact the Winter Alliance in our county is run on that basis.
		
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indeed - the classic situation of everyone's idea of making something inclusive is different, and the line is drawn in a different place; but drawn it is!


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Whoa, are you for real? This is exactly the opposite of the truth in my experience. Stableford can cull those nasty 7, 8, 9+ scores off a high handicaps card but one bad hole in medal and a high handicapper's race is run.

Medal is most definitely for the low handicaps on average.
		
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No, I am not real. I am entirely in your imagination.

Stableford benefits kick in at nett triple bogey, so not less than a 6 (par-3 with no shot), but possibly as high as 10 (par-5 with 2 shots). Will mostly be a 8 (par-4 with one shot). Not too many people win comps of any sort with those on their card.

It is a simple fact, whether you like it or not, that the variation (range of scores) is higher and wider for higher handicap players. It therefore follows that since we are looking for a score which departs from the norm by the greatest amount, that higher handicappers are more likely, although not certain on any given Saturday, to have that score.


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Whoa, are you for real? This is exactly the opposite of the truth in my experience. Stableford can cull those nasty 7, 8, 9+ scores off a high handicaps card but one bad hole in medal and a high handicapper's race is run.

Medal is most definitely for the low handicaps on average.
		
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Yes, but you are looking at it from the perspective of one high handicappers score. If there were 100 of them, one at least would have a hot round, with nothing worse than a double.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethan said:



			No, I am not real. I am entirely in your imagination.

Stableford benefits kick in at nett triple bogey, so not less than a 6 (par-3 with no shot), but possibly as high as 10 (par-5 with 2 shots). Will mostly be a 8 (par-4 with one shot). Not too many people win comps of any sort with those on their card.

It is a simple fact, whether you like it or not, that the variation (range of scores) is higher and wider for higher handicap players. It therefore follows that since we are looking for a score which departs from the norm by the greatest amount, that higher handicappers are more likely, although not certain on any given Saturday, to have that score.
		
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So you're sticking by your notion that, in medal, high handicappers have the advantage?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Yes, but you are looking at it from the perspective of one high handicappers score. If there were 100 of them, one at least would have a hot round, with nothing worse than a double.
		
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You're doing the low players a disservice here, like you're saying they too won't have players who shoot out of their skin.

Low beats high in medal on average.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Not sure who had this in their signature but it proves my point beyond any doubt...

http://www.scottishgolf.org/files/Myths___Misconceptions_Report_1_June_2005.pdf


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## moogie (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You're doing the low players a disservice here, like you're saying they too won't have players who shoot out of their skin.

Low beats high in medal on average.
		
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Disagree Marc
Just been through results at my place last year,  havent included monthly medals as they have 2 divisions to get 2 seperate winners

17 Strokeplay events,  3 single figure H/cap winners,  (4,5,5 ) , 4 winners of 18, 20, 21, 22 H/caps,  average H/cap winner 12.58

10 Stableford events,  4 single figure H/cap winners,  (3, 7, 7, 8 ) , others are 11, 14, 15, 15, 16, 17,  average H/cap winner 11.3

So,  at my place,  Low DOESNT BEAT High in Medal on average..............


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## duncan mackie (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethan said:



			It is a simple fact, whether you like it or not, that the variation (range of scores) is higher and wider for higher handicap players. It therefore follows that since we are looking for a score which departs from the norm by the greatest amount, that higher handicappers are more likely, although not certain on any given Saturday, to have that score.
		
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I understand your argument, but it's flawed to apply it to medal as opposed to stableford.

The reality is that given a large enough sample you would expect a higher handicap player to produce an 'unbeatable' score in a stableford event.

In a medal event this isn't the case because they start at a significant disadvantage in that they are handicapped to a nett double bogey not a medal score - note that the argument for variation is also negated in the case of the higher handicapper who plays a consistent game such that they are less likely to higher (and lower) scores.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 23, 2013)

it's also important to consider the nature of the club when making some of the comparisions being added in here now - if it's a club based on a pay and play course then high handicappers will be totally dominant because you have a dynamic membership who are learning, improving and potentially leaving when they get 'good'.

this will be very different from a more static members club with a solid Cat 1 basis and, who don't permit juniors to play in all club competitions (as an extreme the other way).

the length and nature of the course's hazards and greens will also play a significant part in the equations with certain layouts can go through phases where they play easy, or hard, to certain types of player which can mirror certain handicap types too.

the biggest factor will be whether 'new golfers' are present, and in numbers!


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

moogie said:



			Disagree Marc
Just been through results at my place last year,  havent included monthly medals as they have 2 divisions to get 2 seperate winners

17 Strokeplay events,  3 single figure H/cap winners,  (4,5,5 ) , 4 winners of 18, 20, 21, 22 H/caps,  average H/cap winner 12.58

10 Stableford events,  4 single figure H/cap winners,  (3, 7, 7, 8 ) , others are 11, 14, 15, 15, 16, 17,  average H/cap winner 11.3

So,  at my place,  Low DOESNT BEAT High in Medal on average..............
		
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11.3 and 12.58 are very low averages for winners!

Both are well below the average club handicap. If it favoured high handicappers, we'd expect those to be well up towards 20!


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## Val (Feb 23, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Can I assume that you never had a handicap over 18 before you achieved your current handicap? I know some lower handicappers who say no-one should get a shot on a par 3 - in fact the Winter Alliance in our county is run on that basis.
		
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I have been higher yes and the holes I had 2 shots on normally ended up in net birdies more often than not, that's not right IMO.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I have been higher yes and the holes I had 2 shots on normally ended up in net birdies more often than not, that's not right IMO.
		
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Perhaps an issue with your club's SI ratings? Or perhaps you were a rare breed who randomly found himself scoring on those when the average "two shotter" didn't?


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## moogie (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			11.3 and 12.58 are very low averages for winners!

Both are well below the average club handicap. If it favoured high handicappers, we'd expect those to be well up towards 20!
		
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My point being Low doesnt beat high always in medal strokeplay,  more 18+ H/cap winners than single digit winners
Also u will probably never see an average winner at 'up towards 20' as it would only take a few single digit winners to pull averages down anywhere

So,  ok,  Ive just looked at my away club results

16 medal strokeplay events
16 stableford events

Medal,  4 single figure H/cap winners,  (2, 5, 7, 8 ) ,  4 highest winners,  (17, 19, 19, 20 )  ,  average winning H/cap 12.06

Stableford,  8 single figure H/cap winners,  ( 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9 ) ,  4 highest winners ( 13, 15, 17, 21 ) ,  average winning H/cap 10.25

So,  in conclusion,  at both of MY clubs,  stableford comps favour the lower players.............


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

moogie said:



			My point being Low doesnt beat high always in medal strokeplay,  more 18+ H/cap winners than single digit winners
Also u will probably never see an average winner at 'up towards 20' as it would only take a few single digit winners to pull averages down anywhere

So,  ok,  Ive just looked at my away club results

16 medal strokeplay events
16 stableford events

Medal,  4 single figure H/cap winners,  (2, 5, 7, 8 ) ,  4 highest winners,  (17, 19, 19, 20 )  ,  average winning H/cap 12.06

Stableford,  8 single figure H/cap winners,  ( 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9 ) ,  4 highest winners ( 13, 15, 17, 21 ) ,  average winning H/cap 10.25

So,  in conclusion,  at both of MY clubs,  stableford comps favour the lower players.............

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All comps favour lower players. Stableford does give high more of a chance.


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## moogie (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			All comps favour lower players. Stableford does give high more of a chance.
		
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And yet at both MY clubs the average stableford winner is LOWER than the average medal / strokeplay winner........??

What a very sweeping statement
if it were true,  and knowing that the average golfers handicap is more at the 18,  or 18+ end of the scale,  then why bother having comps....??.......why would higher cappers enter.......??...........a little bit defeatist surely...............


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

moogie said:



			What a very sweeping statement
if it were true,  and knowing that the average golfers handicap is more at the 18,  or 18+ end of the scale,  then why bother having comps....??.......why would higher cappers enter.......??...........a little bit defeatist surely...............

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No one is saying high handicappers don't win, I had a successful season myself last year with a high handicap.

 Handicaps are a measure of potential at any given time. A low handicapper has the consistency to play to their potential more often. That is why a low handicapper has the edge; consistency.


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## rosecott (Feb 23, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I disagree golf is geared towards high handicappers and 3/4 in Stableford is not right but would say no one should get 2 shots on a hole.
		
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rosecott said:



			Can I assume that you never had a handicap over 18 before you achieved your current handicap? I know some lower handicappers who say no-one should get a shot on a par 3 - in fact the Winter Alliance in our county is run on that basis.
		
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Valentino said:



			I have been higher yes and the holes I had 2 shots on normally ended up in net birdies more often than not, that's not right IMO.
		
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If you felt really strongly that you should not have had 2 shots on a hole, you could have entered 18 as your handicap on your card. Your handicap adjustments would have been made on your actual handicap but you would have been able to feel righteous at not winning by having 2 shots on a hole.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			So you're sticking by your notion that, in medal, high handicappers have the advantage?
		
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It is not a notion. It is an observation made by experts in the stats of the game that the variability (from best to worst) of scores is greater for high handicappers.

By the way, what I said, is that if handicaps are _accurate_, higher handicappers _should_ have the advantage. Note the words accurate and should. 

For example, this data from the US (but applicable to the UK too) on exceptional scoring:

http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14410

It ain't rocket science.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethan said:



			It is not a notion. It is an observation made by experts in the stats of the game that the variability (from best to worst) of scores is greater for high handicappers.

By the way, what I said, is that if handicaps are _accurate_, higher handicappers _should_ have the advantage. Note the words accurate and should. 

For example, this data from the US (but applicable to the UK too) on exceptional scoring:

http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14410

It ain't rocket science.
		
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You're making a completely different point to me.

Statistically, with accurate handicaps, low handicaps win more often than high handicaps.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 23, 2013)

At the end of the day I'll get my ball round in as few shots as I can and deduct my handicap from the end result. If it beats everyone else happy days. I am solely interested in getting as low as I can and if I pick up a pot or two then thats fine. Similarly I'll get it round in matchplay as best I can giving or receiving shots as decreed and as long as I've played to my best and enjoyed the other guys company then you can't ask for more.

Golf is one of those games when you can give everything you have, play well and still not win. Accept it. To be honest as long as I've done myself justice when I play that'll do me. I can't be bothered worrying if 3/4 or full gives any particlar group an advantage. Until someone invents something superior to CONGU that is what we have to work with so why fight it?


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## thecraw (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You're doing the low players a disservice here, like you're saying they too won't have players who shoot out of their skin.

Low beats high in medal on average.
		
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Show me the last time a 3 handicap player came in with a net 60??? Happens fairly frequently with 18+ handicap golfers.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2013)

My biggest problem is that off my 18 handicap I'm fairly steady and will shoot 35-37 points 7 rounds out of 10, 38-40 points 1 out of 10 and 30-32 points 2 out of 10. I enter the competitions to play competitive golf but off the 3/4 handicap of 14 I am only able to compete 1 round out of 10 on average. I don't mind the fact I'm not winning every tournament but it gets disheartening to not even be able to put in a half reasonable score. My last round on Friday I came in with 27 points and it's putting me off playing in more comps.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 23, 2013)

rosecott said:



			Can I assume that you never had a handicap over 18 before you achieved your current handicap? I know some lower handicappers who say no-one should get a shot on a par 3 - in fact the Winter Alliance in our county is run on that basis.
		
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There's a par 3 on my course where I frequently have to give 2 shots, completely ludicrous in my opinion.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			There's a par 3 on my course where I frequently have to give 2 shots, completely ludicrous in my opinion.
		
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Why does it being a par 3, in your mind, preclude it from being a two shot hole? There are many par 3s that play as the more difficult holes on the course and that's before we take into account that stroke indexing is about much more than just difficulty.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Show me the last time a 3 handicap player came in with a net 60??? Happens fairly frequently with 18+ handicap golfers.
		
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Yes, _sometimes_ a high handicapper will shoot well below handicap. But (and this is the most important part) ON AVERAGE a low handicapper will beat a high handicapper in both Stableford and medal. 

Giving examples of comps you've played in doesn't change the average and CONGU will legislate based on averages, not individual rounds when low handicaps moan about being beaten by a high handicap.

I took bandit accusations a lot at the start of last year and was told during a match play round that it was a joke that he had to give me four shots (yea because three would've stopped me beating him 5&3) but it's water off a duck's back because I know that overall the better player to par will win out.


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Why does it being a par 3, in your mind, preclude it from being a two shot hole? There are many par 3s that play as the more difficult holes on the course and that's before we take into account that stroke indexing is about much more than just difficulty.
		
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It's not a difficult hole. It's downhill with only about a quarter of the front of the green protected by a bunker. People frequently duff their tee shots and they run onto the green anyway. And then I give them 2 shots; it's very annoying.

Yes, stroke indexing is about more than difficulty which is why this one has a low SI. Conversely at the hardest par three on the course you rarely (never off my handicap) give 2 strokes and don't even give one unless you're giving 15 or more in total. These would be reversed if it was in pure difficulty terms but then all the low SI holes would bunched together.


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Show me the last time a 3 handicap player came in with a net 60??? Happens fairly frequently with 18+ handicap golfers.
		
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That is exactly my point too.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's not a difficult hole. It's downhill with only about a quarter of the front of the green protected by a bunker. People frequently duff their tee shots and they run onto the green anyway. And then I give them 2 shots; it's very annoying.

Yes, stroke indexing is about more than difficulty which is why this one has a low SI. Conversely at the hardest par three on the course you rarely (never off my handicap) give 2 strokes and don't even give one unless you're giving 15 or more in total. These would be reversed if it was in pure difficulty terms but then all the low SI holes would bunched together.
		
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So what's the problem then? Those two shots you're giving to a high handicap is made back on the hardest par 3 where they could probably use the shot but don't get it!


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Ethan said:



			That is exactly my point too.
		
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Using one off examples will never prove anything.

I once got a royal flush in poker post hoc ergo propter hoc I should always fold a hand to anything that may be a royal flush?


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Show me the last time a 3 handicap player came in with a net 60??? Happens fairly frequently with 18+ handicap golfers.
		
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Show me the last time a 3 h/c shot +10 for there h/c.

I bet it happens more often with higher h/c golfers than lower ones so surely it evens itself out?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			So what's the problem then? Those two shots you're giving to a high handicap is made back on the hardest par 3 where they could probably use the shot but don't get it!
		
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No, if I'm giving 2 at the easier one I'm still giving one at the harder one. 

My mindset playing a high handicapper is that I've already lost that hole so if I manage to make a half it's a bonus. Don't mind giving the number of strokes overall its just that 2 on a simple par 3 is a bit harsh.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			y mindset playing a high handicapper is that I've already lost that hole.
		
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There we go. That's the crux of this. You're defeating yourself before a shot is hit on that hole.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There we go. That's the crux of this. You're defeating yourself before a shot is hit on that hole.
		
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Obviously you've never needed a Hole-in-One for a half on a par 3 then....


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Obviously you've never needed a Hole-in-One for a half on a par 3 then....
		
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Anyone who needs that is generally laughing on long par 4s or well protected greens. It isn't about one hole, it's about 18.


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Obviously you've never needed a Hole-in-One for a half on a par 3 then....
		
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I would bet that higher h/c golfers would score worse on par 3's than any other hole.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

I'm a member at 2 clubs at the moment due to memberships overlapping.
I played a Stableford comp at my former club today,in what i'd describe as very difficult conditions (temps hovering around freezing,a course that was soft and sticky after being under water for the best part of 3 months,a bitterly cold wind,and intermittent snow flurries)
The comp was won by a 23 handicapper shooting 49 points !!!!
A friend of mine playing off 4 shot 2 under gross for 42 points and came 3rd,i had 40 points and i'm pretty sure i didn't make the 1st page of results.
Full handicap in a Stableford comp is ridiculous,i've gone through a years worth of Stableford results at 3 course's and single figure golfers are almost never in the frame.
For a handicap system that is supposedly fair,these figures say otherwise.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			I'm a member at 2 clubs at the moment due to memberships overlapping.
I played a Stableford comp at my former club today,in what i'd describe as very difficult conditions (temps hovering around freezing,a course that was soft and sticky after being under water for the best part of 3 months,a bitterly cold wind,and intermittent snow flurries)
The comp was won by a 23 handicapper shooting 49 points !!!!
A friend of mine playing off 4 shot 2 under gross for 42 points and came 3rd,i had 40 points and i'm pretty sure i didn't make the 1st page of results.
Full handicap in a Stableford comp is ridiculous,i've gone through a years worth of Stableford results at 3 course's and single figure golfers are almost never in the frame.
For a handicap system that is supposedly fair,these figures say otherwise.
		
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So, once again, you're equating your experience to the general consensus?


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## FairwayDodger (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There we go. That's the crux of this. You're defeating yourself before a shot is hit on that hole.
		
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Hardly.

What I'm actually doing is preventing myself from getting so pissed off that I lose the next hole as well. Anything I get at this one is a bonus.


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Anyone who needs that is generally laughing on long par 4s or well protected greens. It isn't about one hole, it's about 18.
		
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Problem is that I'm probably giving away a shot there too.
If it's tricky I need a shot in normal play but now I don't have that luxury.
We have several long par 4's that are hard work to make par at.
Pretty straight forward to make bogey, even for a higher handicapper who can take 6 and frequently make the half.....


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Anyone else noticed a coincidence that it's the low h/c's saying the higher h/c golfers have it easier in comps?

Wonder if the lower h/c's thought the same when they were playing of 24?


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## Wayman (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Anyone else noticed a coincidence that it's the low h/c's saying the higher h/c golfers have it easier in comps?

QUOTE]


i noticed this but it is a joke with full allowance and you play out your skin and you play against a high handicapper who tops/fats/thin/shanks/ there way round and you get beat 

2 year ago i gave so junior girl 30 shots around our place and she done this ^^^^

i shot level par through 16 holes and got beat thats not golf!
		
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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Anyone else noticed a coincidence that it's the low h/c's saying the higher h/c golfers have it easier in comps?

Wonder if the lower h/c's thought the same when they were playing of 24?
		
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And the high handicappers saying the Low guys have it easy.....

Personally, I think it's about as fair as it can get.
When I play Medals and win Div 1 I shoot, maybe, nett 68..
Many a time Div 3 is won with nett 65


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

There's only one way to settle this because obviously we can't suit each individual game...

Let's get CONGU to set the rules. Oh wait, they already have and they would like to raise the 3/4 formats of the game to 90% and even as it stands those with a handicap in the lower bracket (14 and below) still win more than 50% of the time.

Yet you never hear of us 15+ handicaps asking for 125% comps, do you?!


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Imurg said:



			And the high handicappers saying the Low guys have it easy.....

Personally, I think it's about as fair as it can get.
When I play Medals and win Div 1 I shoot, maybe, nett 68..
Many a time Div 3 is won with nett 65
		
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But the Div 1 players will shoot nearer to there h/c more often than a Div 2 player.

Yes a Div 2 comp will be more than likely be won with 40+ points but it's rare that a Div 2 player can do this consistent.


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## scratch (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Show me the last time a 3 h/c shot +10 for there h/c.

I bet it happens more often with higher h/c golfers than lower ones so surely it evens itself out?
		
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+10 doesn't win competitions and thecraw's point is valid. Low players don't come in with net 60's but high handicappers frequently do!


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## scratch (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There's only one way to settle this because obviously we can't suit each individual game...

Let's get CONGU to set the rules. Oh wait, they already have and they would like to raise the 3/4 formats of the game to 90% and even as it stands those with a handicap in the lower bracket (14 and below) still win more than 50% of the time.

Yet you never hear of us 15+ handicaps asking for 125% comps, do you?!
		
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Golf is a sport and it has always been my understanding in sport that the better player/team should win almost all the time. That is why sportsmen practice and train, to get better and increase their chances of winning. 

Pretty simple concept to me!


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## Crow (Feb 23, 2013)

Here are the results of board comps at my place last year, S = Stableford, M = Medal and then handicap.

A pretty fair spread if you ask me.

s	13
m	16
m	0
m	18
m	17
m	13
s	10
s	0
m	27


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## Crow (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			Golf is a sport and it has always been my understanding in sport that the better player/team should win almost all the time. That is why sportsmen practice and train, to get better and increase their chances of winning. 

Pretty simple concept to me!
		
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Then don't enter handicap competitions. 
The whole idea of a handicap competition is to even the field.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Crow said:



			Here are the results of board comps at my place last year, S = Stableford, M = Medal and then handicap.

A pretty fair spread if you ask me.

s	13
m	16
m	0
m	18
m	17
m	13
s	10
s	0
m	27
		
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Only one of those is a truly high handicap and the average is 12.66 which is much lower than the average handicap.


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## scratch (Feb 23, 2013)

Crow said:



			Here are the results of board comps at my place last year, S = Stableford, M = Medal and then handicap.

A pretty fair spread if you ask me.

s    13
m    16
m    0
m    18
m    17
m    13
s    10
s    0
m    27
		
Click to expand...

What on earth is fair about these results? Would I be right in thinking that the two wins by a scr player were the same person?

9 competitions and only 2 of them won by a single figure player.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			9 competitions and only 2 of them won by a single figure player.
		
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And? The average golfer is a high handicapper, it would be a skewed system if a disproportionate number of low handicappers won...


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

Back to the stroke play should be full handicap argument. It should be. Then what is, is. There is no arguement for more or less shots that is valid. That's what a handicap is for. It just is.

Wrong? Right? It just is.


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## scratch (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			And? The average golfer is a high handicapper, it would be a skewed system if a disproportionate number of low handicappers won...
		
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Disagree, the average handicap in a club environment is somewhere around mid teens, which isn't a 'high' handicap.

And if you took out the Seniors who tend not to play in competitions on a regular basis, that figure probably comes down even further.


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			Disagree, the average handicap in a club environment is somewhere around mid teens, which isn't a 'high' handicap.
		
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Average at my club is 12.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			Golf is a sport and it has always been my understanding in sport that the better player/team should win almost all the time. That is why sportsmen practice and train, to get better and increase their chances of winning. 

Pretty simple concept to me!
		
Click to expand...

But isn't the whole point of a golf handicap being that I can (off 18) compete on a level playing field with Rory McIlroy or any other top golfer. Why should this be skewed in favour of the lower handicapper by taking shots off me and not them?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			But isn't the whole point of a golf handicap being that I can (off 18) compete on a level playing field with Rory McIlroy or any other top golfer. Why should this be skewed in favour of the lower handicapper by taking shots off me and not them?
		
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Because as you improve at golf so does your perception that you should win more often which just isn't the case in golf, no matter how people want to distort it.


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## Crow (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			What on earth is fair about these results? Would I be right in thinking that the two wins by a scr player were the same person?

9 competitions and only 2 of them won by a single figure player.
		
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Correct, it was the same player.
Just did a very quick scan from How-Did-I-Do.
At my club we have 33 single figure players out of a male membership of 495, that's 6.6%
2 wins from 9 for single figure players = 22.2%

You're right, what on earth is fair about those results?


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## MGL (Feb 23, 2013)

Marc

Right at the beginning of this thread you talked about some stats proving what you are saying.

What are those stats?


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

scratch said:



			To all you high handicappers......get off your lazy arses and start practicing   

:rofl:
		
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Yep I am with you here, if you need more than say 15 shots then you should not be allowed out on the course.

Get to the practise area and don't come back until you can play the game, stop holding us guys up. In fact join the girls and play in their competitions:rofl::rofl:


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

MGL said:



			Marc

Right at the beginning of this thread you talked about some stats proving what you are saying.

What are those stats?
		
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I posted a link to one study on it. It's all out there on t'interweb.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Because as you improve at golf so does your perception that you should win more often which just isn't the case in golf, no matter how people want to distort it.
		
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So as you improve you should accept that you basically have no chance of winning,yet higher handicappers should be capable of scoring 50 Stableford points and nett 60's ?
Have you tried reading your own posts ?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			So as you improve you should accept that you basically have no chance of winning,yet higher handicappers should be capable of scoring 50 Stableford points and nett 60's ?
Have you tried reading your own posts ?
		
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What are you talking about? Lower handicaps (14 and below for men) win more often on average across all the different formats of the game.

It seems you haven't read my posts!

With a better handicap comes better consistency and more chance of winning.


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## MGL (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I posted a link to one study on it. It's all out there on t'interweb.
		
Click to expand...

Humour me and post the link again. Cant see it in the first few posts.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			What are you talking about? Lower handicaps (14 and below for men) win more often on average across all the different formats of the game.

It seems you haven't read my posts!

*With a better handicap comes better consistency and more chance of winning*.
		
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Evidence ?
Please show us the figures that show that low handicappers win more Stableford comps than higher handicappers.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			What are you talking about? Lower handicaps (14 and below for men) win more often on average across all the different formats of the game.

It seems you haven't read my posts!

With a better handicap comes better consistency and more chance of winning.
		
Click to expand...

Well put the time in and maybe just maybe you will get a decent handicap..........


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

http://www.scottishgolf.org/files/Myths___Misconceptions_Report_1_June_2005.pdf


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Well put the time in and maybe just maybe you will get a decent handicap..........
		
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I hope this is said in jest as just because you are a high h/c it doesnt mean you don't practice.

I practice and play just as much as a single figure golfer but i bet i ain't been playing nowhere near as long hence my higher h/c.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			I hope this is said in jest as just because you are a high h/c it doesnt mean you don't practice.

I practice and play just as much as a single figure golfer but i bet i ain't been playing nowhere near as long hence my higher h/c.
		
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If it was a snide comment, I'm letting it slide because as long as I enjoy my golf I'm happy. I know I'll lose to better players most days I play, I can live with that. Seems like the low players on here don't like the occasions they lose.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



http://www.scottishgolf.org/files/Myths___Misconceptions_Report_1_June_2005.pdf

Click to expand...

June 2005 ?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			June 2005 ?
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, I forgot that in the past few years the game of golf had changed radically and we now have 14 handicaps on tour...


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Sorry, I forgot that in the past few years the game of golf had changed radically and we now have 14 handicaps on tour...
		
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According to taylormade we have all added 157 yards minimum since then.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			According to taylormade we have all added 157 yards minimum since then.
		
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Why do you think I play RBZ?


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Why do you think I play RBZ? 

Click to expand...

Then you should be off 1, or 15 in old money!:smirk:


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Why do you think I play RBZ? 

Click to expand...

Obviously not working for you,or maybe its the gap between your gap wedge and lob wedge ?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Obviously not working for you,or maybe its the gap between your gap wedge and lob wedge ?
		
Click to expand...

Might need to add a 53 and a 58 you think? Drop the driver and 3W!!!


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Obviously not working for you,or maybe its the gap between your gap wedge and lob wedge ?
		
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What does it matter!?

He is a high h/c golfer so he is going to win everything because golf is geared towards the high h/c golfer......................


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## USER1999 (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			What does it matter!?

He is a high h/c golfer so he is going to win everything because golf is geared towards the high h/c golfer......................
		
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No he won't, but there are more higher handicapped golfers, and the difference between a good day and a bad day is more exaggerated. More of them, bigger deviance, more likely to win. Just the way it is. Not for any specific individual, granted, but for the one of the many, it's a given.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			What does it matter!?

He is a high h/c golfer so he is going to win everything because golf is geared towards the high h/c golfer......................
		
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Yep if you can use your shots well then your in with a shout, mind you if I had all them shots I would pack the game in and try bowls or something that requires a little less skill.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			I hope this is said in jest as just because you are a high h/c it doesnt mean you don't practice.

I practice and play just as much as a single figure golfer but i bet i ain't been playing nowhere near as long hence my higher h/c.
		
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Maybe aye maybe no, but if you need 2 shots at one hole then you sure as hell ain't practising enough, I know girls out there who have just taken up the game that don't get 2 shots a hole...........:rofl:


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Yep if you can use your shots well then your in with a shout, mind you if I had all them shots I would pack the game in and try bowls or something that requires a little less skill.
		
Click to expand...

Love it.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Maybe aye maybe no, but if you need 2 shots at one hole then you sure as hell ain't practising enough, I know girls out there who have just taken up the game that don't get 2 shots a hole...........:rofl:
		
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For the record, I don't get two shots on any holes

I really want to make a "your bird" joke after that last line but this is a family friendly site.


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Maybe aye maybe no, but if you need 2 shots at one hole then you sure as hell ain't practising enough, I know girls out there who have just taken up the game that don't get 2 shots a hole...........:rofl:
		
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Yes but some people are naturally pick the game up quickly.

Theres a guy at our place that is out on the course more than any one i know and puts in loads of work but still plays off 20.

So does he not deserve his 2 shots on 2 holes?


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Yes but some people are naturally pick the game up quickly.

Theres a guy at our place that is out on the course more than any one i know and puts in loads of work but still plays off 20.

So does he not deserve his 2 shots on 2 holes?
		
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Somebody should tell him he should aim at the green when he hits the ball.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Somebody should tell him he should face the green when he hits the ball.
		
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Surely he should be side on to the green when he hits the ball? Seems like low handicappers don't know everything.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Yes but some people are naturally pick the game up quickly.

Theres a guy at our place that is out on the course more than any one i know and puts in loads of work but still plays off 20.

So does he not deserve his 2 shots on 2 holes?
		
Click to expand...

To keep it short the answer is NO.

Come on be honest having a handicap at 18 is bad enough but to get any more than that it ridiculous, if you need more that a shot a hole then you are kidding yourself on and must ask yourself " why am I playing this game"


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Somebody should tell him he should aim at the green when he hits the ball.
		
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Lol....

Some of then could not hit the barn door with an axe never mind a wee white ball.......:rofl:


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Somebody should tell him he should aim at the green when he hits the ball.
		
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But he has never had a lesson so he is most likely practicing the wrong things but he practices more than anyone so should he still not get 2 shots on a hole?


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely he should be side on to the green when he hits the ball? Seems like low handicappers don't know everything.
		
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Your way too sharp for me,you managed to pick holes in my post before i realised what i'd typed and edited it.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But he has never had a lesson so he is most likely practicing the wrong things but he practices more than anyone so should he still not get 2 shots on a hole?
		
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Nope if he is that bad then he should really give up, would not like to see him on the practise range as I don't think he would have a clue where he was hitting it.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But he has never had a lesson so he is most likely practicing the wrong things but he practices more than anyone so should he still not get 2 shots on a hole?
		
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I'm thinking that I can spot where his main problem lays. Maybe he should have a few lessons and then he won't be practising the wrong things and might improve enough not to need 2 shots on a hole.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			But he has never had a lesson so he is most likely practicing the wrong things but he practices more than anyone so should he still not get 2 shots on a hole?
		
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I've never had a lesson,and according to the experts on here i am playing with the wrong clubs and should be custom fitted.
I play the game for fun,fresh air,nice scenery,good company,scoring well is a bonus.The way some people talk on here,you'd think they were playing this game for a living.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			I've never had a lesson,and according to the experts on here i am playing with the wrong clubs and should be custom fitted.
I play the game for fun,fresh air,nice scenery,good company,scoring well is a bonus.The way some people talk on here,you'd think they were playing this game for a living.
		
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I agree with you here, never have I seen so many guys pretending to be golfers........lol

The old saying " they talk like Jack Nicklaus and play like Jack Duckworth" oh and give out free advice:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			To keep it short the answer is NO.

Come on be honest having a handicap at 18 is bad enough but to get any more than that it ridiculous, if you need more that a shot a hole then you are kidding yourself on and must ask yourself " why am I playing this game"
		
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Are you serious!?

So no one should have a h/c of 18 or above!?

So if a new golfer takes up the game he/she is expected to play to or aound bogey golf straight away? Where is the fun in that for him/her?

Thats just going to put them straight off in my eyes.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			I agree with you here, never have I seen so many guys pretending to be golfers........lol

The old saying " they talk like Jack Nicklaus and play like Jack Duckworth" oh and give out free advice:rofl::rofl::rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth mate.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Ain't that the truth mate.
		
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Yep so many guys these days suffer from LOFT, some guy have it and some guys don't. Them that don't can normaly get it round the course without to much trouble.


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

bozza said:



			Are you serious!?

So no one should have a h/c of 18 or above!?

So if a new golfer takes up the game he/she is expected to play to or aound bogey golf straight away? Where is the fun in that for him/her?

Thats just going to put them straight off in my eyes.
		
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Plenty of sunday league football teams who hardly win a game,do you think that there players don't enjoy playing football because they don't win ?
How would people feel if poor football teams were given a 10 goal headstart in the interests of fair play ?
I'd seriously question just how much some people actually love the game of golf as much as they say they do.I'd quite happily play week in week out without winning anything,but some people feel they have a right to win,regardless of there ability.
Is that fair ?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			but some people feel they have a right to win,regardless of there ability.
Is that fair ?
		
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You realise that's the low handicappers you're describing there...


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## bozza (Feb 23, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Plenty of sunday league football teams who hardly win a game,do you think that there players don't enjoy playing football because they don't win ?
How would people feel if poor football teams were given a 10 goal headstart in the interests of fair play ?
I'd seriously question just how much some people actually love the game of golf as much as they say they do.I'd quite happily play week in week out without winning anything,but some people feel they have a right to win,regardless of there ability.
Is that fair ?
		
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It's not about winning things it's about the fact that a new golfer can compete against a single figure player and stand a chance of winning, hence the handicapping system in golf.

So should we scrap the handicap system and everyone play off scrath then?


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You realise that's the low handicappers you're describing there...
		
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:clap:


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## Bomber69 (Feb 23, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You realise that's the low handicappers you're describing there...
		
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Hmmm not sure about this, I mean if I was getting 10 shots or more I would be expecting to win week in week out but like I said if I was that bad I would take up bowls:rofl:


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## Bomber69 (Feb 24, 2013)

bozza said:



			It's not about winning things it's about the fact that a new golfer can compete against a single figure player and stand a chance of winning, hence the handicapping system in golf.

So should we scrap the handicap system and everyone play off scrath then?
		
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Not sure about that but maybe we should set a limit on handicaps, say 10 for a good even number and if you can't play to that then you don't get on the course. You can always come on here and talk a good game if you feel the need........


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 24, 2013)

bozza said:



			It's not about winning things it's about the fact that a new golfer can compete against a single figure player and stand a chance of winning, hence the handicapping system in golf.

So should we scrap the handicap system and everyone play off scrath then?
		
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I wouldn't feel hard done by if a scratch golfer kicked my behind.


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Hmmm not sure about this, I mean if I was getting 10 shots or more I would be expecting to win week in week out but like I said if I was that bad I would take up bowls:rofl:
		
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There are many people out there playing off +5.

So stick to your word and pack in golf.

Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite, would you?


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## bozza (Feb 24, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Not sure about that but maybe we should set a limit on handicaps, say 10 for a good even number and if you can't play to that then you don't get on the course. You can always come on here and talk a good game if you feel the need........
		
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Or set a limit for the amount of rubbish certain low h/c's talk and ban them from golf and any golf related forum to stop them sperading there evil narrow minded thoughts on the game.

Sounds good to me.


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## bozza (Feb 24, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			I wouldn't feel hard done by if a scratch golfer kicked my behind.
		
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But you would if someone like myself playing off 19 beat you?


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 24, 2013)

bozza said:



			But you would if someone like myself playing off 19 beat you?
		
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You think i'd lose sleep worrying about somebody with a high handicap scoring more points than me in a Stableford comp ?


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## scratch (Feb 24, 2013)

bozza said:



			So should we scrap the handicap system and everyone play off scrath then?
		
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No but because golf is a competitive sport there should be some sort of incentive to improve.


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## bozza (Feb 24, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			You think i'd lose sleep worrying about somebody with a high handicap scoring more points than me in a Stableford comp ?



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I wouldn't loose any sleep beating someone with a lower h/c in any format of the game.


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## bozza (Feb 24, 2013)

scratch said:



			No but because golf is a competitive sport there should be some sort of incentive to improve.
		
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I agree with this, I play golf for enjoyment but I also want to get my h/c as low as possible and if I win a few comps on the way then so be it.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 24, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There are many people out there playing off +5.

So stick to your word and pack in golf.

Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite, would you? 

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Yep there will be a few but not too many, so for now I will continue to play. Now what does that mean in your terms, yep your now getting 26 shots, wow... I guess you really need them


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Yep there will be a few but not too many, so for now I will continue to play. Now what does that mean in your terms, yep your now getting 26 shots, wow... I guess you really need them
		
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How would I be giving someone off +5 26 shots when I said I don't even give scratch players any two shot holes?

Maths isn't your strong point.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 24, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			How would I be giving someone off +5 26 shots when I said I don't even give scratch players any two shot holes?

Maths isn't your strong point. 

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I would find it hard to think that you would give a scratch player any shot never mind 2 a hole, more like them giving you a barra load of shots


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2013)

Nah, I give them shots, I feel bad for how often I can beat them with my chopper game so I like to make them feel better.


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## Bomber69 (Feb 24, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Nah, I give them shots, I feel bad for how often I can beat them with my chopper game so I like to make them feel better. 

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Crow (Feb 24, 2013)

Might the reason for a lot of this moaning from low h/cappers be that they can't cut the mustard in a scratch competition where they're playing against "proper" golfers?

So they feel hard done by and want a system where they can easily beat players who aren't as good as they are and so massage their egos??


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## Mungoscorner (Feb 24, 2013)

Crow said:



			Might the reason for a lot of this moaning from low h/cappers be that they can't cut the mustard in a scratch competition where they're playing against "proper" golfers?

So they feel hard done by and want a system where they can easily beat players who aren't as good as they are and so massage their egos??
		
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Is that so ?
What exactly is a "proper" golfer ?
At the end of the day,i'm sure those in the low cat 2's,and high cat 1's,would much rather be "almost there" rather than be "nowhere near".


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## Wayman (Feb 24, 2013)

Crow said:



			Might the reason for a lot of this moaning from low h/cappers be that they can't cut the mustard in a scratch competition where they're playing against "proper" golfers?

So they feel hard done by and want a system where they can easily beat players who aren't as good as they are and so massage their egos??
		
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To be honest about scratch events I know there will be no chance in hell I would win one but I play in the. For experience and to play a decent course for cheap green fees


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## Crow (Feb 24, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Is that so ?
What exactly is a "proper" golfer ?
At the end of the day,i'm sure those in the low cat 2's,and high cat 1's,would much rather be "almost there" rather than be "nowhere near".  

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You're better placed than me to say what a "proper" golfer is, I merely used the term to differentiate from high handicappers as you seem so against playing with them.

If you're happy being "almost there" rather than a decent scratch golfer then that's fine, what I'd say is, to borrow a phrase from your mate, 



Bomber69 said:



			Get to the practise area and don't come back until you can play the game, stop holding "proper golfers" up. In fact join the girls and play in their competitions:rofl::rofl:
		
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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2013)

Just checked the results from the competition I played on Friday..........

The top 12 places in order were guys playing off 4, 12, 1, 4, 9, 5, 15, 9, 12, 7, 8, +1 (average handicap 7.1)
The bottom 12 places in reverse order were guys playing off 22, 18, 23, 13, 20, 24, 10, 11, 9, 22, 24, 18 (average handicap 17.8)
In the middle were handicaps of 12, 14, 13, 13, 6, 14, 13, 10, 12, 9, 10, 13, 7, 14, 22 (average handicap 12.1)

I know it's only one day of competition but this would suggest that the 3/4 handicap format does favour the lower handicappers.


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## fundy (Feb 24, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just checked the results from the competition I played on Friday..........

The top 12 places in order were guys playing off 4, 12, 1, 4, 9, 5, 15, 9, 12, 7, 8, +1 (average handicap 7.1)
The bottom 12 places in reverse order were guys playing off 22, 18, 23, 13, 20, 24, 10, 11, 9, 22, 24, 18 (average handicap 17.8)
In the middle were handicaps of 12, 14, 13, 13, 6, 14, 13, 10, 12, 9, 10, 13, 7, 14, 22 (average handicap 12.1)

I know it's only one day of competition but this would suggest that the 3/4 handicap format does favour the lower handicappers.
		
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It suggets nothing of the sort, it suggets on the day it suited low handicappers. That could have been because of the scoring system, or it could have been per se the conditions, i dont know lets say cold wet windy long which may just have suited the lower cappers better than the higher ones.

Played 2 forum meets this week, could have told you after 3 or 4 holes at FofA that a lower capper would win (wet very long and tough) and after the same at TH that a higher capper would win (short, frozen greens), and on both counts i wasnt far away


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## Region3 (Feb 25, 2013)

Gotta love these threads. Shame this one has turned into handbags.

My point of view, for what it's worth:

In our competitions there might be 5 cat1 golfers, and 30 cat4 golfers (as well as the others inbetween).
Pick just 1 at random from each cat before play and the cat1 will most likely win 3/4 of the time, but there aren't just one of each or even numbers of each.

The probability is that 2 or 3 of the cat4's will have a good day and post a nett score that a cat1 is highly unlikely to beat even playing out of their skin.

It doesn't mean that comps are more suited to cat4's though. Individually they aren't likely to post a silly score. Collectively however, they are, so the cat1's are very unlikely to win anything.

I couldn't care less about winning anything, and I'm not cat1 anyway. I fancy my chances 1 on 1 against anyone higher than me at our club, but I also know that I'm unlikely to win anything against a full field.


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