# Wrist setting, early / late - Does it matter?



## Maninblack4612 (Apr 3, 2015)

I've just finished a set of lessons with the pro at the local range & I'm playing some of the best golf I've played for years. He's changed my posture, lining up, swingpath & has got me clearing my hips, something I've never done correctly before.

The one thing I can't do is the main thing he advocates, which is an early setting of the wrists. He says this is to get the club on the right plane going back & to build some lag into the swing.

I have three main instruction books, two of which have helped me a lot. One is John Jacobs' "Play Better Golf" where he says the wrists set naturally when the club reaches around waist height. The other, Jim Hardy's "Plane Truth", never mentions wrist set, cock or hinge, it is completely silent on the subject. Bobby Clampett's "Impact Zone", on the other hand, could have been written by my coach. He advocates an early wrist cock, as big as possble, followed by as much deliberate lag as you can manage. I've tried this & it just leads to massive inconsistency.

So I have adopted a swing which is wider & slightly more upright than my natural very flat swing, with no deliberate wrist hinge at all & certainly none before the club is parallel to the ground. Once I add in the missing hip clearance on the downswing most shots go arrow straight &, for me, long. It feels to me as if I'm swinging like Jiminez, who also appears to have no wrist hinge, certainly not early in the backswing.

So what's with this early hinge? Do you need it or, if you can derive enough clubhead speed from the movement of the upper body, can you get more consistency from having firm wrists. I'm almost convinced that this is the case & I'm reluctant to spend more time (or money!) trying to perfect a move I just don't think is for me.

Has anyone else experienced this dilemma?


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## mteam (Apr 3, 2015)

I've had this where early wrist set has been recommended and it just doesn't suit me. I think it should happen naturally and not be forced


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 3, 2015)

I naturally tend to be late, but have always been coached to go earlier.

My body just keeps going back to late for some reason when I stop lessons. 

I always play better golf when I am having regular lessons...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2015)

To be honest I'd forget looking for affirmation of what you are doing elsewhere and let your pro guide you. He's clearly got you hitting it well so trust him and if he says it needs to be set early then go with that


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## garyinderry (Apr 3, 2015)

Mates pro is currently trying to get him to get an earlier wrist hinge.


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 3, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To be honest I'd forget looking for affirmation of what you are doing elsewhere and let your pro guide you. He's clearly got you hitting it well so trust him and if he says it needs to be set early then go with that
		
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He's got me hitting it well, but only when I ignore the early wrist setting. My last lesson consisted mainly of a discussion of the merits or otherwise of doing it and why some good players didn't do it. Can't say he answered my question.


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## Bratty (Apr 3, 2015)

Just out off interest, what did your pro say the reason was that he wanted you to adopt an early wrist hinge?
You say he didn't answer your question, but did he at least say why he wanted you to do it?


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			He's got me hitting it well, but only when I ignore the early wrist setting. My last lesson consisted mainly of a discussion of the merits or otherwise of doing it *and why some good players didn't do it.* Can't say he answered my question.
		
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There are good players with no wrist hinge whatsoever? where does their power come from? who are these automatons?


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

Bratty said:



			Just out off interest, *what did your pro say the reason was that he wanted you to adopt an early wrist hinge?*
You say he didn't answer your question, *but did he at least say why he wanted you to do it*?
		
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second sentence in the OP


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## Bratty (Apr 3, 2015)

CMAC said:



			second sentence in the OP 

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Ooops! I'm blaming the antibiotics!


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 3, 2015)

CMAC said:



			There are good players with no wrist hinge whatsoever? where does their power come from? who are these automatons?
		
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OK, late, restricted hinge, then, like my hero:

In the first video the wrist set is the last thing that happens in the backswing

https://youtu.be/NQwpMYPDuZg

See here at around 0:13, no wrist setting at all. At this point in my swing the pro would have my wrists fully set

https://youtu.be/aO5_gS7SImQ

I don't like doing something if I can't understand why it is necessary. If I set early I seem to do it too much and consistency goes out of the window. Is it because Miguel does it late & restricts it he is so accurate?


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## virtuocity (Apr 3, 2015)

If I try to hinge my wrists quickly, I shank.


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## Cherry13 (Apr 3, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			OK, late, restricted hinge, then, like my hero:

In the first video the wrist set is the last thing that happens in the backswing

https://youtu.be/NQwpMYPDuZg

See here at around 0:13, no wrist setting at all. At this point in my swing the pro would have my wrists fully set

https://youtu.be/aO5_gS7SImQ

I don't like doing something if I can't understand why it is necessary. If I set early I seem to do it too much and consistency goes out of the window. Is it because Miguel does it late & restricts it he is so accurate?
		
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Just out of interest mate, who you getting lessons with?


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## the_coach (Apr 4, 2015)

wrist set needed as that sets one of the levers to give optimum speed through the strike for the swing motion. 

for such a 'small' physical movement with the lead wrist/thumb (assuming it's done correctly the 'set' being 'upwards on the snuff box joint) it moves the 'clubhead' over a larger distance more quickly both to the top of the swing & then from hands very near to the ball moves the club head again over a larger distance but now real quick. 
the lead hand setting correctly on this joint at bottom of thumb also helps set  for most folks - & would help most folks set who currently aren't doing this - the club shaft on plane.

thing a lot of folks miss, (as their check for 'lag' is solely on what the lead wrist, so lead arm is - in angle relationship to the shaft) is they pretty much miss what the trail hand/wrist/arm is doing in relationship to the shaft & stored energy, so lag.

most teachers would say the trail hand/trail arm relationship to shaft (lag) is in many respects a good ways more important than the lead.

always difficult when using very individual swings as a marker to what happens, what should happen, what shouldn't be happening in 'any' other folks swing motions. 

Jimenez has a very 'individualistic' swing motion. what a lot of folks miss is what is happening to his right hand/arm during his swing motion, & when it's happening. 

if you look closely at the dtl driver swing at 0.07' you'll see him 'hinge' his right hand back on itself markedly so very early on there's a pretty big angle being formed between back of right hand to right forearm so to also the shaft. also the right elbow is starting to fold very soon in the motion, so there's also an early angle relationship between right forearm to shaft (you'll also see this in the face on slowmo vid early on around 0.13')

so this 'right hand/arm' all gets 'set' real early on but in doing so it keeps the left arm & wrist a ways 'straighter' longer only setting the left later on.
 but most of the arm/hand speed in the motion he can get in his motion is coming from the angles set early on in the right hand & arm. this is also why he swings the club on the 'plane' he does.


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 4, 2015)

Cherry13 said:



			Just out of interest mate, who you getting lessons with?
		
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Without naming names a local pro at my driving range who teaches everyone to set the wrists early.


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 4, 2015)

the_coach said:



			wrist set needed as that sets one of the levers to give optimum speed through the strike for the swing motion. 

for such a 'small' physical movement with the lead wrist/thumb (assuming it's done correctly the 'set' being 'upwards on the snuff box joint) it moves the 'clubhead' over a larger distance more quickly both to the top of the swing & then from hands very near to the ball moves the club head again over a larger distance but now real quick. 
the lead hand setting correctly on this joint at bottom of thumb also helps set  for most folks - & would help most folks set who currently aren't doing this - the club shaft on plane.

thing a lot of folks miss, (as their check for 'lag' is solely on what the lead wrist, so lead arm is - in angle relationship to the shaft) is they pretty much miss what the trail hand/wrist/arm is doing in relationship to the shaft & stored energy, so lag.

most teachers would say the trail hand/trail arm relationship to shaft (lag) is in many respects a good ways more important than the lead.

always difficult when using very individual swings as a marker to what happens, what should happen, what shouldn't be happening in 'any' other folks swing motions. 

Jimenez has a very 'individualistic' swing motion. what a lot of folks miss is what is happening to his right hand/arm during his swing motion, & when it's happening. 

if you look closely at the dtl driver swing at 0.07' you'll see him 'hinge' his right hand back on itself markedly so very early on there's a pretty big angle being formed between back of right hand to right forearm so to also the shaft. also the right elbow is starting to fold very soon in the motion, so there's also an early angle relationship between right forearm to shaft (you'll also see this in the face on slowmo vid early on around 0.13')

so this 'right hand/arm' all gets 'set' real early on but in doing so it keeps the left arm & wrist a ways 'straighter' longer only setting the left later on.
 but most of the arm/hand speed in the motion he can get in his motion is coming from the angles set early on in the right hand & arm. this is also why he swings the club on the 'plane' he does.
		
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Thank you for taking the time to reply. I *think *I understand this. The bit about the early wrist set moving the clubhead a long way is what gives me a problem. I feel as if the clubhead can go off in a variety of directions & this produces the inconsistency. If, on the other hand, I force my takeaway onto what feels an outside path, to counteract my natural tendency to go too far inside, when I get to the top I feel that the wrists can only hinge one way, and then not too much. It really feels like I'm imitating Jiminez and the results are similar (if not quite as spectacular!) Shots are very straight, even the misses are pushes & pulls with very few hooks or slices. The swing looks flat, like Jiminez & I have the slight over the top movement at the start of the downswing which I see in the second video.

I'll try to post a video later in the week, I haven't seen the "new" swing properly myself yet, just a glimpse at my last lesson. In the meantime I'll continue with the late setting and hope they scores keep coming.


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## CMAC (Apr 4, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



*Without naming names *a local pro at my driving range who teaches everyone to set the wrists early.
		
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why not? he could get more business out of it


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 4, 2015)

CMAC said:



			why not? he could get more business out of it
		
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He may think I'm criticising him. I'm not, just trying to understand.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2015)

Personally, I don't think it matters when you set the wrist hinge providing one is set. I think the when it is unhinged is far more important as this is where the power comes from, i.e. the late hit that you can see in Jimenez's down swing. Ian Woosnam had/has a great late hit, resulting in the ball going miles.


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## JustOne (Apr 4, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			He advocates an early wrist cock, as big as possble, followed by as much deliberate lag as you can manage. I've tried this & it just leads to massive inconsistency.
		
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This sentence doesn't sit well with me. 

Ideally lag comes from having all the other parts working in such a way that lag is NATURALLY created, (hand position/spine angle/handle position etc) you can't create lag and just HOPE it fits with everything else that you do in your swing. If you suddenly start cocking your wrists and throwing the club onto an entirely new plane it might screw your swing up - certainly for a while I'd imagine.

If you don't 'flip' then you have lag. Having lag doesn't in itself do anything, it's just a position that ISN'T a flip (thereby allowing your full potential).


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 4, 2015)

JustOne said:



			This sentence doesn't sit well with me. 

Ideally lag comes from having all the other parts working in such a way that lag is NATURALLY created, (hand position/spine angle/handle position etc) you can't create lag and just HOPE it fits with everything else that you do in your swing. If you suddenly start cocking your wrists and throwing the club onto an entirely new plane it might screw your swing up - certainly for a while I'd imagine.

If you don't 'flip' then you have lag. Having lag doesn't in itself do anything, it's just a position that ISN'T a flip (thereby allowing your full potential).
		
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This is how I feel. When you look at the pros, the likes of Garcia in particular, most of the lag is created after the downswing starts. You can see the angle between the hands & arms reducing as the hips & upper body begin to turn back.


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 9, 2015)

[video=youtube;aTtvlq0rauA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTtvlq0rauA[/video]

DTL swing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPQHQeEl-R4

Here they are, as Jiminesque as you like. His head doesn't wave about like mine but that's something he can work on!

Feels to me like a wide, flat swing with a mnimum of wrist setting until the very last part of the backswing. The DTL shot was a good strike, the other pushed right a bit, with some fade. Hadn't really warmend up at that stage.


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## JustOne (Apr 9, 2015)

Don't be offended but if that was my swing I was looking at on video I would change it tomorrow... but only if I wanted (could be bothered) to improve. If you're loving your golf and playing for fun then just get out there... it's sunny today!


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 13, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Don't be offended but if that was my swing I was looking at on video I would change it tomorrow... but only if I wanted (could be bothered) to improve. If you're loving your golf and playing for fun then just get out there... it's sunny today!
		
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Offended, me? I might have been if you were off 28 but I respect your undoubted ability. I'd be interested in what you'd change. If it is the head movement, there's nothing I can do about it, I have a stiff neck &, unfortunately, when the shoulders move, so does the head. If it's the flatness, I've tried (yes, I have been bothered!) to get it steeper on & off over the last 40 plus years and all that leads to is massive inconsistency. Believe it or not, this swing has brought impressive results in the last few weeks, 3 over the other day and 1 under, could have been 4 under for an eight hole stretch on a very demanding course the other week.

This kind of swing brings Jiminez incredible accuracy and it does the same, on a much reduced scale, obviously, for me. I can hit every fairway off the tee on a good day & the short game is improving a lot. The swing looks (is) flat because I'm 6 feet tall with 30Â½" inside legs & long arms. I can't get very bent over the ball and the shoulders swing in a very horizontal plane. This, combined with an aversion to swinging my arms upover, leads to a very flat swing. But, it works for Kuchar & Jiminez and it works for me.

I may be 68 but haven't stopped trying to improve, I can't understand people who play "just for the exercise & the company" but I have to stick to my natural swing, with adaptations to make solid contact.


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## shortstuff (Apr 13, 2015)

OP: Nick Faldo's view on the subject:
_http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/how_to_plug_in_a_repeating_swing.html_
Essentially you are getting one part of the swing which can cause timing issues out of the way early on. Alternatively you could take the Steve Stricker approach and not cock them at all.


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 13, 2015)

shortstuff said:



			OP: Nick Faldo's view on the subject:
_http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/how_to_plug_in_a_repeating_swing.html_
Essentially you are getting one part of the swing which can cause timing issues out of the way early on. Alternatively you could take the Steve Stricker approach and not cock them at all.
		
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Very interesting, but it seems to have the opposite effect on me!


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## JustOne (Apr 14, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			... If it is the head movement, there's nothing I can do about it, I have a stiff neck &, unfortunately, when the shoulders move, so does the head. If it's the flatness, 

... I've tried (yes, I have been bothered!) to get it steeper on & off over the last 40 plus years and all that leads to is massive inconsistency. 

... The swing looks (is) flat because I'm 6 feet tall with 30Â½" inside legs & long arms.

... I can't get very bent over the ball and the shoulders swing in a very horizontal plane. This, combined with an aversion to swinging my arms upover, leads to a very flat swing.

... I may be 68
		
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Seems like you got all your excuses in nice and early. Hard to change someone who doesn't want to 


I'd have you raise the plane a little so you don't swing around yourself quite so flat... (right arm collapses too much in backswing) and have you shorten your backswing. You can get as much power as you need from the position on the left... the one on the right doesn't really add anything to your swing power OR control wise.







Out of interest, what kinda yardage you you think you can carry your driver? Are you a 220 carry with roll out to 240.... or less?


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 14, 2015)

AW



JustOne said:



			Seems like you got all your excuses in nice and early. Hard to change someone who doesn't want to 


I'd have you raise the plane a little so you don't swing around yourself quite so flat... (right arm collapses too much in backswing) and have you shorten your backswing. You can get as much power as you need from the position on the left... the one on the right doesn't really add anything to your swing power OR control wise.


Out of interest, what kinda yardage you you think you can carry your driver? Are you a 220 carry with roll out to 240.... or less?
		
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 You probably won't believe this but that was me trying to get it steeper! In this position the shoulders have rotated at right angles to the spine which, to me, is correct. If I try (& believe me I have tried!) to get any steeper I'm all over the place, no consistency at all. I carry it around 200 to 220 off the tee, very few people of my age at the club hit it further. And, as I said, on a good day I can hit every fairway.

 [video]https://youtu.be/FpVKrVG2qUA[/video]

This is what I want my swing to look like. Is this too flat?


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## JustOne (Apr 14, 2015)

By the time he has the club shaft level to his toe line he has both the grip and the head of the club above his hip height, yours isn't so perhaps give that a go...


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## Maninblack4612 (Apr 14, 2015)

JustOne said:



			By the time he has the club shaft level to his toe line he has both the grip and the head of the club above his hip height, yours isn't so perhaps give that a go...
		
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You're dead right & I'm nearer to that position than I used to be. This swing fascinates me, it's shallow on the way back but gets steeper the moment the downswing starts. It works for him and, for me,ci feel it's one to copy.


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