# New Car



## Mudball (Oct 13, 2019)

I just realised the next wave of customer lock-ins.  The PCP balloon payment these days now seem to be much higher than residual value.  At the point of sale, the sales talk is all about how you will get a high residual value, but the reality is that a new car depreciates very quickly.  So my old BMW run around had about 9.5k balloon after 4 years.  Took it around to the dealers and online valuation and it all comes between 8-9k (It has all the normal wear and tear). 
Non BMW dealerships wont use it as part exchange as it is negative equity.  So ended up taking it to BMW which did a good deal on the new 1-series.   Now really looking forward to seeing a new wheels when they get delivered next month (I hope there are no queues at the border).  

Looked thru the paper work of the other car and looks very similar balloon-residual argument can be made there. 


PS:  The new 1-series now comes with indicators as standard


----------



## Imurg (Oct 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I just realised the next wave of customer lock-ins.  The PCP balloon payment these days now seem to be much higher than residual value.  At the point of sale, the sales talk is all about how you will get a high residual value, but the reality is that a new car depreciates very quickly.  So my old BMW run around had about 9.5k balloon after 4 years.  Took it around to the dealers and online valuation and it all comes between 8-9k (It has all the normal wear and tear).
Non BMW dealerships wont use it as part exchange as it is negative equity.  So ended up taking it to BMW which did a good deal on the new 1-series.   Now really looking forward to seeing a new wheels when they get delivered next month (I hope there are no queues at the border). 

Looked thru the paper work of the other car and looks very similar balloon-residual argument can be made there.


PS:  The new 1-series now comes with( *intermittent*) indicators as standard 

Click to expand...

Fixed that one for ya!!


----------



## Mudball (Oct 13, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Fixed that one for ya!!

Click to expand...

Good one..  The funniest experience was while i was sitting in the demo car in the forecort. As i was about to pull out, i got cut by a 5-series.  Evidently there is a pecking order in the beemer world..

BTW. it still comes with the big circular dial in the middle.. formally called iDrive but better know as iKnob..


----------



## larmen (Oct 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			PS:  The new 1-series now comes with indicators as standard 

Click to expand...

They always have. If you put both sides on at the same time you can stop wherever you want ;-)

Sorry, nothing proper to contribute. Enjoy your new car. Does it fit a golf bag?


----------



## drdel (Oct 13, 2019)

The whole momentum in Car Sales is moving the tin and so monthly payments are the 'headline' numbers. GFV used to be the target end of lease number: no more. Dealers realise most people are totally ignorant about interest rates, residual values, refurbishment cost and additional mileage charges etc.

The UK has a Â£16bn debt on new cars (av. about Â£21k each) and about Â£19bn on used cars (av Â£12K each) most payments aren't enough to cover the debt so the balloon figure is where it catches up. Forces buyers into a new deal and roiling up the debt. OK until income flow falters !!!


----------



## Mudball (Oct 13, 2019)

larmen said:



			They always have. If you put both sides on at the same time you can stop wherever you want ;-)

Sorry, nothing proper to contribute. Enjoy your new car. *Does it fit a golf bag?*

Click to expand...

Not in the boot..  apparently it has the biggest boot among the hot hatches.  Mostly because they moved to a front wheel drive.   However it wont fit a golf bag.  It will have to go on the back seat.   Also, the back seats now fall down as standard, so you could load thru


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

Iâ€™m amazed it doesnâ€™t fit a golf bag. My sisters got an m140i and Iâ€™ve borrowed it and it fits in there. I thought the new boot was bigger. Drivers had to go on back seats but the bag should def fit


----------



## Mudball (Oct 13, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			Iâ€™m amazed it doesnâ€™t fit a golf bag. My sisters got an m140i and Iâ€™ve borrowed it and it fits in there. I thought the new boot was bigger. Drivers had to go on back seats but the bag should def fit
		
Click to expand...

Tbh.. I did not check it since I donâ€™t use the 1 series for golf..  apparently the new 1 is wider and taller profile but is shorter between the wheels.  So  if it fits the M140, canâ€™t see it not fitting the new 118


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			The whole momentum in Car Sales is moving the tin and so monthly payments are the 'headline' numbers. GFV used to be the target end of lease number: no more. Dealers realise most people are totally ignorant about interest rates, residual values, refurbishment cost and additional mileage charges etc.

The UK has a Â£16bn debt on new cars (av. about Â£21k each) and about Â£19bn on used cars (av Â£12K each) most payments aren't enough to cover the debt so the balloon figure is where it catches up. Forces buyers into a new deal and roiling up the debt. OK until income flow falters !!!
		
Click to expand...

Same with motorbikes, ridiculously low monthly payments & stupidly high ballon payments.  The high take up is probably helped by the amount of pushing the bike press (particularly the weekly newspaper) does.  Personally would never touch PCP, either a bank loan or HP but at the end of the term I'm going to own it.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Same with motorbikes, ridiculously low monthly payments & stupidly high ballon payments.  The high take up is probably helped by the amount of pushing the bike press (particularly the weekly newspaper) does.  Personally would never touch PCP, either a bank loan or HP but at the end of the term* I'm going to own it*.
		
Click to expand...

thatâ€™s the fundamental question.. I had the beemer for 4 years.. good for run around.  The interior is dated and tech has moved on.. so would I pay same amount to keep it or get new shineys for it.   Same concept as in phones


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Tbh.. I did not check it since I donâ€™t use the 1 series for golf..  apparently the new 1 is wider and taller profile but is shorter between the wheels.  So  if it fits the M140, canâ€™t see it not fitting the new 118
		
Click to expand...

Yeah it should definitely fit if you need it for it every now and then. Can golf clubs and trolley fit is my first question looking at cars now.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			thatâ€™s the fundamental question.. I had the beemer for 4 years.. good for run around.  The interior is dated and tech has moved on.. so would I pay same amount to keep it or get new shineys for it.   Same concept as in phones
		
Click to expand...

I may or may not keep it, depending on how I feel, but I will have a deposit for a change of bike, or a bike I'm happy to keep, but the one thing I won't have is negative equity or the need to take out another loan if I don't want to.

And as far as I'm concerned there's a limit to the amount of tech you need in a car or bike; current car is 12 years old and has more than enough tech for me.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I may or may not keep it, depending on how I feel, but I will have a deposit for a change of bike, or a bike I'm happy to keep, but the one thing I won't have is negative equity or the need to take out another loan if I don't want to.

And as far as I'm concerned there's a limit to the amount of tech you need in a car or bike; current car is 12 years old and has more than enough tech for me.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on what you want from a car/bike really. Iâ€™ve got a 66 plate m4 comp and it already feels like interiors have moved on with the more modern cars. The way I see it, why does it make any difference how you pay for it, if it loses 20k it loses 20k no matter how you pay it. If itâ€™s worth less that the balloon payment just hand it back and close the agreement off.


----------



## fundy (Oct 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			thatâ€™s the fundamental question.. I had the beemer for 4 years.. good for run around.  The interior is dated and tech has moved on.. so would I pay same amount to keep it or get new shineys for it.   Same concept as in phones
		
Click to expand...

a cars interior is dated in 4 years? best you dont see inside my 10 year old one lol

you want a spaceship in there?


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

fundy said:



			a cars interior is dated in 4 years? best you dont see inside my 10 year old one lol

you want a spaceship in there?
		
Click to expand...

Its not horrific in there, donâ€™t get me wrong, people would still get in and think it looks nice, Itâ€™s just behind a lot of the other cars in its class, I suppose it will be rectified in the new m3/m4 next year. Itâ€™s little things like the digital dash in the new mercs which makes it seem even more premium. Things do move on quickly with cars, it just depends if that bothers you or not.


----------



## fundy (Oct 13, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			Its not horrific in there, donâ€™t get me wrong, people would still get in and think it looks nice, Itâ€™s just behind a lot of the other cars in its class, I suppose it will be rectified in the new m3/m4 next year. Itâ€™s little things like the digital dash in the new mercs which makes it seem even more premium. Things do move on quickly with cars, it just depends if that bothers you or not.
		
Click to expand...

do they really? cars havent really changed much in 30 years have they? plenty of new gimmicks to separate people from their hard earned, plenty of them on finance that they cant afford

no different to buying the latest TM driver I guess 

caveat I do less than 5k miles a year, functionality plenty for me


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			I suppose it depends on what you want from a car/bike really. Iâ€™ve got a 66 plate m4 comp and it already feels like interiors have moved on with the more modern cars. *The way I see it, why does it make any difference how you pay for it,* if it loses 20k it loses 20k no matter how you pay it. If itâ€™s worth less that the balloon payment just hand it back and close the agreement off.
		
Click to expand...

Just looked at the finance arrangements on an 11k bike from Triumph. 7.9% APR, you'll end up paying 50% more to own the bike via PCP than you will via HP.  Or you can go to the bank and get the loan at about 3%. No contest.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			Its not horrific in there, donâ€™t get me wrong, people would still get in and think it looks nice, Itâ€™s just behind a lot of the other cars in its class, I suppose it will be rectified in the new m3/m4 next year. Itâ€™s little things like the digital dash in the new mercs which makes it seem even more premium. Things do move on quickly with cars,* it just depends if that bothers you or not.*

Click to expand...

It's to be driven, which involves more looking out of the windscreen than at the dash.  A working speedometer & fuel gauge is fine, don't need much else.   A gear indicator is helpful on the bike.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

fundy said:



			do they really? cars havent really changed much in 30 years have they? plenty of new gimmicks to separate people from their hard earned, plenty of them on finance that they cant afford

no different to buying the latest TM driver I guess 

caveat I do less than 5k miles a year, functionality plenty for me
		
Click to expand...

Some people notice it, some donâ€™t, it all depends on what you value and what you can afford I suppose. Ive not got kids atm and house is almost paid off so in the stage where being in the nicest place possible is important; I know it will change eventually.  

Some people have different priorities and thatâ€™s ok. I would say if you went to look at the new c63 and looked in my m4 you would def see what I mean about the interior being a step up


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's to be driven, which involves more looking out of the windscreen than at the dash.  A working speedometer & fuel gauge is fine, don't need much else.   A gear indicator is helpful on the bike.
		
Click to expand...

It just shows the environment in the car doesnâ€™t matter. Thatâ€™s fine, people value different things. I want luxury in the cars Iâ€™m driving, so notice little things which set others apart. We like different things and thatâ€™s fine. And the other comment about the fugues purely depends if you intend on keeping it. Pcp just means I donâ€™t have to tie large amounts of money up in a depreciating asset. If you use that money properly you can generate more return than you pay in interest


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 13, 2019)

I canâ€™t get my head around these PCP deals. The thought of spending Â£320pcm + for a motor that Iâ€™ll never own unless I pay the massive balloon payment at the end puts me off.


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Just looked at the finance arrangements on an 11k bike from Triumph. 7.9% APR, you'll end up paying 50% more to own the bike via PCP than you will via HP.  *Or you can go to the bank and get the loan at about 3%*. No contest.
		
Click to expand...

When I was looking to buy a new van in March, I looked at financing it  Â£12k van cost Â£15,300 HP and with a Santander loan for Â£10k I paid Â£10,780 back.

I also looked at leasing a van but it was Â£320pcm for 3yrs then either give it back or renew for a newer van. If after 3yrs I gave it back, Iâ€™d have paid nearly Â£12k for a van that I didnâ€™t own. In the end I bought one cash.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			When I was looking to buy a new van in March, I looked at financing it  Â£12k van cost Â£15,300 HP and with a Santander loan for Â£10k I paid Â£10,780 back.

I also looked at leasing a van but it was Â£320pcm for 3yrs then either give it back or renew for a newer van. If after 3yrs I gave it back, Iâ€™d have paid nearly Â£12k for a van that I didnâ€™t own. In the end I bought one cash.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m currently paying Santander back for the bike and might be going to them for a car if the current one misbehaves again.


----------



## Stuart_C (Oct 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Iâ€™m currently paying Santander back for the bike and might be going to them for a car if the current one misbehaves again.
		
Click to expand...

I couldnâ€™t believe how much you paid back, I thought it was a typo. I wanted to keep my monthly outgoings to a minimum.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 14, 2019)

Dont want to take this off topic, but do we not get shafted re price of cars in the UK. Went to Malaysia a year or so ago and malay cars nigh on zero tax. European cars 100% tax. Just seen a Mazda CX5 starts at 29,000 dollars in oz about 16-17K. Not a cat in hells chance of that happening in the UK. Whys that? I dont know. Tax? Greed,profit. Surely it would stimulate the economy and be better for the environment driving round in low fuel efficient vehicles (that you can fit clubs in)


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Just looked at the finance arrangements on an 11k bike from Triumph. 7.9% APR, you'll end up paying 50% more to own the bike via PCP than you will via HP.  Or you can go to the bank and get the loan at about 3%. No contest.
		
Click to expand...

Called shopping around.

Car wow discounts on finance normally wipe out the interest costs

They gave me 4k off my car for finance and worked out at 3k interest so saved 1k

My car before was 0%


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 14, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Dont want to take this off topic, but do we not get shafted re price of cars in the UK. Went to Malaysia a year or so ago and malay cars nigh on zero tax. European cars 100% tax. Just seen a Mazda CX5 starts at 29,000 dollars in oz about 16-17K. Not a cat in hells chance of that happening in the UK. Whys that? I dont know. Tax? Greed,profit. Surely it would stimulate the economy and be better for the environment driving round in low fuel efficient vehicles (that you can fit clubs in)
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should look at it another way.....why do so many people buy the expensive German marques instead of the cheaper stuff thats just as capable of getting from A to B just as capable of carrying what we need,  probably more reliable and cheaper to repair, and why don't we as a nation only buy what we build in this country?


----------



## woofers (Oct 14, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps you should look at it another way.....why do so many people buy the expensive German marques instead of the cheaper stuff thats just as capable of getting from A to B just as capable of carrying what we need,  probably more reliable and cheaper to repair, and why don't we as a nation only buy what we build in this country?
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps look at it as why do people 'need' to replace their cars so frequently ? Vanity ? It's certainly clever marketing to make you feel you need the latest model but with ever increasing congestion the performance characteristics are largely irrelevant.  Modern cars don't rust as they did years ago, engines are quite capable of running a couple of hundred thousand miles, so it's generally safety features and fuel economy that are the major developments.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

woofers said:



			Or perhaps look at it as why do people 'need' to replace their cars so frequently ? Vanity ? It's certainly clever marketing to make you feel you need the latest model but with ever increasing congestion the performance characteristics are largely irrelevant.  Modern cars don't rust as they did years ago, engines are quite capable of running a couple of hundred thousand miles, so it's generally safety features and fuel economy that are the major developments.
		
Click to expand...

Quite a judgemental comment there. Why is someone enjoying something vanity?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 14, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Dont want to take this off topic, but do we not get shafted re price of cars in the UK. Went to Malaysia a year or so ago and malay cars nigh on zero tax. European cars 100% tax. Just seen a Mazda CX5 starts at 29,000 dollars in oz about 16-17K. Not a cat in hells chance of that happening in the UK. Whys that? I dont know. Tax? Greed,profit. Surely it would stimulate the economy and be better for the environment driving round in low fuel efficient vehicles (that you can fit clubs in)
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of cheaper cars on the market 

And what is the average wage in Malaysia? 

Itâ€™s a different economy, different lifestyle, there will be some things cheaper in Malaysia and Aus and no doubt some things cheaper in the UK - we are being â€œshaftedâ€ we all have a choice on what we want to buy , if people want high spec then pay for it


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps you should look at it another way.....*why do so many people buy the expensive German marques instead of the cheaper stuff thats just as capable of getting from A to B* just as capable of carrying what we need,  probably more reliable and cheaper to repair, and why don't we as a nation only buy what we build in this country?
		
Click to expand...

Why do people buy Titliest and Mizuno instead of Slazenger when in the vat majority of cases the Slazenger will get the golf ball to much the same place?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2019)

woofers said:



			Or perhaps look at it as w*hy do people 'need' to replace their cars so frequently* ? Vanity ? It's certainly clever marketing to make you feel you need the latest model but with ever increasing congestion* the performance characteristics are largely irrelevant*.  Modern cars don't rust as they did years ago, engines are quite capable of running a couple of hundred thousand miles, so it's generally safety features and fuel economy that are the major developments.
		
Click to expand...

I think the golf club manufactures are the best at this and make car companies look like amateurs. Plus safety and fuel economy are pretty important reasons to change for a lot of people.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 14, 2019)

So here are some numbers that i look thru my deal.   

1) allegedly  my car costs about 28k  (which i think is ridiculous for a hatchback - never mind the brand). It got shiny alloys and mettalic paint and some of the new tech that comes standard on a BMW.   
2) I say allegedly because i think the number is made up.  BTW, CarWoW provides a similar figure for it.   However, due to various discounts this number magically comes down to something around 24k.  So my finance is based on that
3) Deposit and monthly for 48 months add up 15k 
4) Balloon payment (if i so choose) is about 12.5K
5) At the end of 4 years, 
    a) i can walk away or trade up after paying 15k 
    b) Get a 4 year, single owner vehicle that i have been driving around for 27.5k 

The other key thing with PCP is affordability and access.  If i went to a bank for a 25k loan for 4 years, then i will get have to pay about Â£500 pm.  Plus all the usual bits of admin.  I dont have a massive deposit to put away also i would need to make some sort of payment to get rid of existing motor.   Despite all it Warts, the PCP is a great way to provide access to new wheels.  Also helps the economy by keeping it moving.   Remember, if you save and be extra cautious, it does not help the economy.  the Economy works when people spend money on goods and services..  BUT spend *responsibly*


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So here are some numbers that i look thru my deal.  

1) allegedly  my car costs about 28k  (which i think is ridiculous for a hatchback - never mind the brand). It got shiny alloys and mettalic paint and some of the new tech that comes standard on a BMW.  
2) I say allegedly because i think the number is made up.  BTW, CarWoW provides a similar figure for it.   However, due to various discounts this number magically comes down to something around 24k.  So my finance is based on that
3) Deposit and monthly for 48 months add up 15k
4) Balloon payment (if i so choose) is about 12.5K
5) At the end of 4 years,
    a) i can walk away or trade up after paying 15k
    b) Get a 4 year, single owner vehicle that i have been driving around for 27.5k

The other key thing with PCP is affordability and access.  If i went to a bank for a 25k loan for 4 years, then i will get have to pay about Â£500 pm.  Plus all the usual bits of admin.  I dont have a massive deposit to put away also i would need to make some sort of payment to get rid of existing motor.   Despite all it Warts, the PCP is a great way to provide access to new wheels.  Also helps the economy by keeping it moving.   Remember, if you save and be extra cautious, it does not help the economy.  the Economy works when people spend money on goods and services..  BUT spend *responsibly*

Click to expand...

This is the point of it for me. Does PCP work for everyone, no. If your intention is to keep the car forever of course it wouldnâ€™t work, but if you intend on changing cars on a relatively regular basis it makes perfect sense.

I could have paid for mine outright, but if you use the lump sum in a better way you can actually make a profit on the money to pay off interest and depreciation on it. You couldnâ€™t do that if you pay outright and it ties up a big jump sum of money


----------



## Jacko_G (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm currently toying with the idea of a new car. Not decided what I want or whether I require a new car. My current run around has 82k on the clock and today I dropped it off at the garage for a new wheel bearing and a strut mount needs replaced. It hasn't really given me any grief or big bills in 6 years of owning it but I'm now getting to the stage that I am thinking does it require to be axed?

I'm not a huge car buff, I know what I like but I also know what I can afford. I've never done a car on PCP but will look into it. I will argue over APR if it is crazy, there is usually room on that. It's either that or I buy second hand again and use my car as part exchange and throw some money at it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I just realised the next wave of customer lock-ins.  Th*e PCP balloon payment these days now seem to be much higher than residual value.*  At the point of sale, the sales talk is all about how you will get a high residual value, but the reality is that a new car depreciates very quickly.  So my old BMW run around had about 9.5k balloon after 4 years.  Took it around to the dealers and online valuation and it all comes between 8-9k (It has all the normal wear and tear).
Non BMW dealerships wont use it as part exchange as it is negative equity.  So ended up taking it to BMW which did a good deal on the new 1-series.   Now really looking forward to seeing a new wheels when they get delivered next month (I hope there are no queues at the border).

Looked thru the paper work of the other car and looks very similar balloon-residual argument can be made there.


PS:  The new 1-series now comes with indicators as standard 

Click to expand...

I kind of think people need to be very careful as the increasingly stringent environmental push and more cities introducing clean air zones could mean that what is not that polluting now may well be seen as very polluting in 4 years time, thus impacting its residual value a lot.


----------



## Piece (Oct 14, 2019)

If you do go PCP, you do have to do your homework if you want to give yourself the best deal. There are several levers in play for the finance company to make money; e.g. a great APR maybe offset by a higher price. Or a great price might be offset by a chunky APR.  Always look at the total you have to pay (inc. interest) and whether you can AND want to afford the monthlies.

I've always wanted something better and one I can update regularly. I couldn't do that realistically with ownership previously, so I've done the PCP route on nearly new cars with no intention to buy. My PCP is up around this time next year. If you want to buy outright, then other options are better.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I kind of think people need to be very careful as the increasingly stringent environmental push and more cities introducing clean air zones could mean that what is not that polluting now may well be seen as very polluting in 4 years time, thus impacting its residual value a lot.
		
Click to expand...

But if youâ€™re on a PCP it protects against that with a GFV. If itâ€™s worth less you hand it back without penalty


----------



## drdel (Oct 14, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			But if youâ€™re on a PCP it protects against that with a GFV. If itâ€™s worth less you hand it back without penalty
		
Click to expand...

But be careful when handing a car back if there's ANY damage, upholstery/ pets/ smoking not just dings you'll have to pay to get it ship shape. Any mileage over the plan can be around 14p/mile A mate had a charged of Â£2k on a lease car for 'seat' and interior damage.  OK as long as people keep in mind its not and never is their car and take lots of photos at hand-back..


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			But be careful when handing a car back if there's ANY damage, upholstery/ pets/ smoking not just dings you'll have to pay to get it ship shape. Any mileage over the plan can be around 14p/mile A mate had a charged of Â£2k on a lease car for 'seat' and interior damage.  OK as long as people keep in mind its not and never is their car and take lots of photos at hand-back..
		
Click to expand...

A lease car and PCP are a bit different. Ive never ever had problem with a PCP car, but tbh Iâ€™ve never kept a car until the end. I rarely keep them beyond 2 years. Youâ€™re correct with what you said though, if things can reduce the value of a car beyond general wear and tear for its age of course they will take it back. Keep the car in good condition and itâ€™s not a problem


----------



## BrianM (Oct 14, 2019)

Iâ€™m a leasing man now myself, on the last few months of a Touerag now, 16k over 3 years, no tax to pay, only a service and tyres.
Itâ€™s only worth 21-25k max now, for a 55k car, say that loosely, good deals to be had if you know what youâ€™re after ðŸ‘ðŸ»


----------



## Reemul (Oct 14, 2019)

I just bought a second hand car. 16 plate, Peugeot 308 sw (estate) atop spec including sat nav and great space for the 3 of us with our golf clubs and trolleys. Cost Â£8.5k, paid cash out of the wages.

I look at it like this. At 21 the missus and I both have pcp or lease cars at Â£300 a month each. so that's,

Â£300 x 2 x 12 = Â£7,200 x 50 years as i do it for my working life that's Â£360,000 to borrow something. Lot of money that. (like the 16k over 3 years do that over 50 thats Â£266k for 1 car if 2 of you do that it's over half a million quid on 2 cars you never own) That's also without any increase in monthly payments.

Now I drive my car for 15 minutes total in the morning and then it sits outside work for 8 hours, I then drive it home for 5 minutes. It then sits outside my house 15 hours and 40 minutes. The wife and I could pay Â£350,000 for that. I'm sure we could do so much better than that with the money.

Now some people can afford this, earn good money and have spare income but where I work we have hordes or peeps in there 20's living at home with parents bitching they can't afford to buy a house yet have these Audi's, Bmw's and Mercs as if it means something. Many people obsessed that having a so called smart brand car means something, like you've made it, people look at you and think wow a car and a new plate you are amazing.

An example, 25 year old girl at work, comes in says i'm getting a brand new Mini, top spec, cost is Â£23,000 odd. I say lot of money, small car, any thoughts on kids, she like nah, not having kids, i can afford it. Even has the small boot converted with a big speaker system so very little storage etc. 6 weeks later has a one stand and is pregnant, keeping it, can't afford while off work and not suitable for the baby either. Brought a little smile to my face.

It's just a car....


----------



## Jacko_G (Oct 14, 2019)

Reemul said:



			I just bought a second hand car. 16 plate, Peugeot 308 sw (estate) atop spec including sat nav and great space for the 3 of us with our golf clubs and trolleys. Cost Â£8.5k, paid cash out of the wages.

I look at it like this. At 21 the missus and I both have pcp or lease cars at Â£300 a month each. so that's,

Â£300 x 2 x 12 = Â£7,200 x 50 years as i do it for my working life that's Â£360,000 to borrow something. Lot of money that. (like the 16k over 3 years do that over 50 thats Â£266k for 1 car if 2 of you do that it's over half a million quid on 2 cars you never own) That's also without any increase in monthly payments.

Now I drive my car for 15 minutes total in the morning and then it sits outside work for 8 hours, I then drive it home for 5 minutes. It then sits outside my house 15 hours and 40 minutes. The wife and I could pay Â£350,000 for that. I'm sure we could do so much better than that with the money.

Now some people can afford this, earn good money and have spare income but where I work we have hordes or peeps in there 20's living at home with parents bitching they can't afford to buy a house yet have these Audi's, Bmw's and Mercs as if it means something. Many people obsessed that having a so called smart brand car means something, like you've made it, people look at you and think wow a car and a new plate you are amazing.

An example, 25 year old girl at work, comes in says i'm getting a brand new Mini, top spec, cost is Â£23,000 odd. I say lot of money, small car, any thoughts on kids, she like nah, not having kids, i can afford it. Even has the small boot converted with a big speaker system so very little storage etc. 6 weeks later has a one stand and is pregnant, keeping it, can't afford while off work and not suitable for the baby either. Brought a little smile to my face.

It's just a car....
		
Click to expand...

So a work colleague having a bit of misfortune brings a smile to your face because she treated herself? Doesn't paint you in a great light or maybe it doesn't read well!?

I don't have a fancy car, I don't grudge people who do have nice cars having them either, nor do I judge who can/can't afford them. People sometimes do/own things to make them happy. It's a life choice and good luck to them.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So a work colleague having a bit of misfortune brings a smile to your face because she treated herself? Doesn't paint you in a great light or maybe it doesn't read well!?

I don't have a fancy car, I don't grudge people who do have nice cars having them either, nor do I judge who can/can't afford them. People sometimes do/own things to make them happy. It's a life choice and good luck to them.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this. Why does what someone spends their money on matter to others. Seems like people are quick to judge people who want/like nice things.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 14, 2019)

One of the guys i know in the neighbourhood just splashed on a top 5series BMW.. was talking to him. His simple explanation... I can never afford a house (at late 20s he stays with parents) so I rather have a shiny car ..  canâ€™t fault his logic 
as someone said... to each his own


----------



## fundy (Oct 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So here are some numbers that i look thru my deal.   

1) allegedly  my car costs about 28k  (which i think is ridiculous for a hatchback - never mind the brand). It got shiny alloys and mettalic paint and some of the new tech that comes standard on a BMW.   
2) I say allegedly because i think the number is made up.  BTW, CarWoW provides a similar figure for it.   However, due to various discounts this number magically comes down to something around 24k.  So my finance is based on that
3) Deposit and monthly for 48 months add up 15k 
4) Balloon payment (if i so choose) is about 12.5K
5) At the end of 4 years, 
    a) i can walk away or trade up after paying 15k 
    b) Get a 4 year, single owner vehicle that i have been driving around for 27.5k 

The other key thing with PCP is affordability and access.  If i went to a bank for a 25k loan for 4 years, then i will get have to pay about Â£500 pm.  Plus all the usual bits of admin.  I dont have a massive deposit to put away also i would need to make some sort of payment to get rid of existing motor.   Despite all it Warts, the PCP is a great way to provide access to new wheels.  Also helps the economy by keeping it moving.   Remember, if you save and be extra cautious, it does not help the economy.  the Economy works when people spend money on goods and services..  BUT spend *responsibly*

Click to expand...


28 bags of sand for a 1 series beemer and you were worrying about a fivers worth of road tax? seriously i dont know which part of that statement is more laughable


----------



## Reemul (Oct 14, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			Exactly this. Why does what snd to dump her and she gets pregnantomeone spends their money on matter to others. Seems like people are quick to judge people who want/like nice things.
		
Click to expand...

Yes maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I go to lunch at the same time as her and explained my thoughts as listed above, listened to her complain she cant afford to leave home while showing me her new iphone, has to be iphone android is crap and then listen to her going on about spending nearly 25k on something she can't afford and then to have a one night stand, causing her boyfriend to dump her and to get pregnant, i mean it doesn't read true does it, but really sums up today's issues. An unwanted baby, single parent with a 24k car she can't afford, more a grimace as i will more than likely pay her benefits from my taxes, but never mind at least she has a nice car she never owns


----------



## Mudball (Oct 14, 2019)

fundy said:



			28 bags of sand for a 1 series beemer and you were worrying about a fivers worth of road tax? seriously i dont know which part of that statement is more laughable
		
Click to expand...

every little helps ..


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Reemul said:



			Yes maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I go to lunch at the same time as her and explained my thoughts as listed above, listened to her complain she cant afford to leave home while showing me her new iphone, has to be iphone android is crap and then listen to her going on about spending nearly 25k on something she can't afford and then to have a one night stand, causing her boyfriend to dump her and to get pregnant, i mean it doesn't read true does it, but really sums up today's issues. An unwanted baby, single parent with a 24k car she can't afford, more a grimace as i will more than likely pay her benefits from my taxes, but never mind at least she has a nice car she never owns
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m sure if youâ€™ve got an 8.5k Peugeot you arenâ€™t really paying all that much in taxes anyway. 






Itâ€™s not nice being judged by choices you make is it.....it works both ways and completely unnecessary.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			every little helps ..
		
Click to expand...

Haha agreed. Iâ€™m looking at an X3M/X4M Competition and itâ€™s not the price of the car thatâ€™s making me think, itâ€™s the bloody tax. ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Reemul (Oct 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			One of the guys i know in the neighbourhood just splashed on a top 5series BMW.. was talking to him. His simple explanation... I can never afford a house (at late 20s he stays with parents) so I rather have a shiny car ..  canâ€™t fault his logic
as someone said... to each his own
		
Click to expand...

But that's the point, everyone wants what they can't really afford regardles


BristolMike said:



			Exactly this. Why does what someone spends their money on matter to others. Seems like people are quick to judge people who want/like nice things.
		
Click to expand...




BristolMike said:



			Iâ€™m sure if youâ€™ve got an 8.5k Peugeot you arenâ€™t really paying all that much in taxes anyway.






Itâ€™s not nice being judged by choices you make is it.....it works both ways and completely  unnecessary.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, we are all judged by the chocies we make and we live with that. If anyone on here thinks they aren't judged by what they write they are much  mistaken


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Reemul said:



			But that's the point, everyone wants what they can't really afford regardles



I disagree, we are all judged by the chocies we make and we live with that. If anyone on here thinks they aren't judged by what they write they are much  mistaken
		
Click to expand...

What Iâ€™m saying is itâ€™s pointless judging people for their choices based on your ideas. Personally I wouldnâ€™t drive a 16 plate Peugeot, but not going to judge someone for it, itâ€™s just not for me. It just seems more socially acceptable to judge people who have nicer things.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 14, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			What Iâ€™m saying is itâ€™s pointless judging people for their choices based on your ideas. Personally I wouldnâ€™t drive a 16 plate Peugeot, but not going to judge someone for it, itâ€™s just not for me.* It just seems more socially acceptable to judge people who have nicer things*.
		
Click to expand...

Think it would also be fair to say that in a number of cases, the attitude of those who have nicer things towards those who don't invites certain judgements.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Think it would also be fair to say that in a number of cases, the attitude of those who have nicer things towards those who don't invites certain judgements.
		
Click to expand...

Rarely from what Iâ€™ve seen, it does happen but a lot less often. Most of the time itâ€™s judging people with nice things. Itâ€™s the usual why do that when this is enough. It really seems to rile people what others spend their money on. There have been a lot of comments on here that seem pretty judging towards what people do.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 14, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			Rarely from what Iâ€™ve seen, it does happen but a lot less often. Most of the time itâ€™s judging people with nice things. Itâ€™s the usual why do that when this is enough. It really seems to rile people what others spend their money on. There have been a lot of comments on here that seem pretty judging towards what people do.
		
Click to expand...

What other people spend their money on doesn't rile most people; it's the incessant bragging or rubbing other people's noses in it that causes the issues.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			What other people spend their money on doesn't rile most people; it's the incessant bragging or rubbing other people's noses in it that causes the issues.
		
Click to expand...

By who?


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Think it would also be fair to say that in a number of cases, the attitude of those who have nicer things towards those who don't invites certain judgements.
		
Click to expand...

Which may also explain why the (soon to be dropped) Ford Mondeo has regularly been outsold by the BMW 3 series....
That has to say something about our relationship with labels as a society now surely?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Which may also explain why the (soon to be dropped) Ford Mondeo has regularly been outsold by the BMW 3 series....
That has to say something about our relationship with labels as a society now surely?
		
Click to expand...

Very much so.  I see it daily in the office.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			By who?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you know very well.


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 15, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm sure you know very well.
		
Click to expand...

No come on, say what youâ€™re thinking


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2019)

Brand snobbery extends well beyond cars. Who plays Mizzies? Who wouldn't consider Wilson irons? Why did Nike stop making clubs? 

Mizzies have been top of my shopping list for years. Every time I go for a fitting the spin rate is too high but I still keep them at the top of the list, hoping that next time they'll fit. I haven't had a set of Wilson irons since I parted company with a lovely set of of Staffs in the early 90's.

I'd hazard a guess that the top of the range for every brand actually perform very similarly but people still go for x brand over y brand even though x might be twice the price.


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 15, 2019)

Car dealerships like PCP's. There is a better chance of customer retention with a PCP. The only problem with a PCP is at the end of term, you _*have *_to do something. With a straightforward HP agreement you just keep the car.
But a PCP has it's uses. It allows you to buy a newer (or higher spec) car than you thought. And "most" of us want the newest (or highest specced) car we can get. I did say "most" not "all" by the way.
If you intend keeping the car for a decent length of time, then a PCP is not for you. But if you like to change every 3 or 4 years, then go ahead.
On new cars, you'll usually find the best interest rates, or deposit allowances, on PCP's. It's not the same on used cars.
If you buy the "right" car, the one with a massive finance deposit allowance, you'll often find that this will effectively wipe out the interest you're being charged.
The important word to remember in the guaranteed future value is "guaranteed". It's your protection against whatever the future holds.
Remember Rover?? If you'd just spent Â£30k cash or taken out traditional HP on a Rover 75 six months before Rover went down, your car was worthless, and you'd lost big time. There wasn't this guarantee.
If you'd bought it on a PCP you were safe in the knowledge that you could carry on driving it for the length of the PCP and just hand it back with no further loss.
I know what I'd rather have done.


----------



## Dibby (Oct 15, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			I suppose it depends on what you want from a car/bike really. Iâ€™ve got a 66 plate m4 comp and it already feels like interiors have moved on with the more modern cars. The way I see it, why does it make any difference how you pay for it, if it loses 20k it loses 20k no matter how you pay it. If itâ€™s worth less that the balloon payment just hand it back and close the agreement off.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with the statement about depreciation, with one caveat. If you have the capital, but just prefer to use it elsewhere, it makes perfect sense. If you don't actually have the capital and are using it to obtain something you actually couldn't really afford, you should perhaps think whether it really is the right thing to do, or if you are living beyond your means.


----------



## robinthehood (Oct 15, 2019)

Keep an eye out for piss taking car dealers too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50052375


----------



## BristolMike (Oct 15, 2019)

Dibby said:



			I agree with the statement about depreciation, with one caveat. If you have the capital, but just prefer to use it elsewhere, it makes perfect sense. If you don't actually have the capital and are using it to obtain something you actually couldn't really afford, you should perhaps think whether it really is the right thing to do, or if you are living beyond your means.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree, the money was there to pay it outright but putting it on a pcp allowed the money to be used much more efficiently elsewhere, actually providing a better return than the interest. PCPs are only useful if you intend on changing often


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2019)

Smiffy said:



			Car dealerships like PCP's. There is a better chance of customer retention with a PCP. The only problem with a PCP is at the end of term, you _*have *_to do something. With a straightforward HP agreement you just keep the car.
But a PCP has it's uses. It allows you to buy a newer (or higher spec) car than you thought. And "most" of us want the newest (or highest specced) car we can get. I did say "most" not "all" by the way.
If you intend keeping the car for a decent length of time, then a PCP is not for you. But if you like to change every 3 or 4 years, then go ahead.
On new cars, you'll usually find the best interest rates, or deposit allowances, on PCP's. It's not the same on used cars.
If you buy the "right" car, the one with a massive finance deposit allowance, you'll often find that this will effectively wipe out the interest you're being charged.
The important word to remember in the guaranteed future value is "guaranteed". It's your protection against whatever the future holds.
Remember Rover?? If you'd just spent Â£30k cash or taken out traditional HP on a Rover 75 six months before Rover went down, your car was worthless, and you'd lost big time. There wasn't this guarantee.
If you'd bought it on a PCP you were safe in the knowledge that you could carry on driving it for the length of the PCP and just hand it back with no further loss.
I know what I'd rather have done.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on

I PCP my car's not lease because I want to own them at the end 

However I then buy them because I like I then PCP the second car.. so I keep a car about 8 years

Current cars are 1.5 and 10 years the other is only that old because I got it off my mum as a cheap run around 

I might lease next because I want to try a leaf but don't want to own it incase of issues of charging but that's to be decided when the hrv is paid off in 1.5 years


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

We've just 'bought' a new VW Golf on PCP.  Deposit and monthly payment fitted with our finances.  Got a good lump knocked off the price and a pretty low APR.  We got the car Mrs Hogie wanted - has always wanted.  In a couple of years time when I hang up my boots I'll pull some cash and pay the balloon payment.  We'll then keep the car for as long as - and that could be a good long time.  So may or may not have been the best financing -  but it works for us.  For Mrs Hogie it's not really about the money. It's about living and enjoying today.  What car costs us to buy outright in a couple of years time will be what it costs us - we know we'll be able to afford it if that's what we want to do.


----------



## Grant85 (Oct 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I just realised the next wave of customer lock-ins.  The PCP balloon payment these days now seem to be much higher than residual value.  At the point of sale, the sales talk is all about how you will get a high residual value, but the reality is that a new car depreciates very quickly.  So my old BMW run around had about 9.5k balloon after 4 years.  Took it around to the dealers and online valuation and it all comes between 8-9k (It has all the normal wear and tear).
Non BMW dealerships wont use it as part exchange as it is negative equity.  So ended up taking it to BMW which did a good deal on the new 1-series.   Now really looking forward to seeing a new wheels when they get delivered next month (I hope there are no queues at the border). 

Looked thru the paper work of the other car and looks very similar balloon-residual argument can be made there.


PS:  The new 1-series now comes with indicators as standard 

Click to expand...

The PCP deals are only worthwhile to people who want / need a new vehicle every 3 years or so... and are basically going to have a Â£200 to Â£400 monthly payment ongoing forever. 

Ultimately people who might otherwise have bought outright a second hand car with a bank loan or HP agreement might look at the deals and see that the monthly payment is much the same 'for a new car'. 

They then do the deal for a new car, but as the OP has said, the balloon payment means that after 3 years they need to then borrow a fair chunk again to buy the car (and continue with a similar monthly payment) or return the car and do another similar deal on a new car. 

My strategy has always to buy a second hand car maybe between 2 or 3 years old, with sensible mileage. If you buy at Â£13,000 to Â£15,000 - this is a car that would have been Â£30,000+ brand new. 
Put a trade in and a bit of savings down and take a bank loan for the balance. 
Borrow at 3% or so over 5 years. (will be much cheaper pm than someone buying a similar car on PCP, only difference is their car is new). 
Aim to keep the car for 5 years and probably pay the loan off early at some point. 
You then have a car that is still maybe worth Â£3,000 to Â£5,000 as a 7 or 8 year old car to trade in or sell to repeat the process. 

Compromise is I don't have a brand new car and I try and keep a car for 5 years. Obviously when a car gets to 6 or 7 years old, it can start costing money in terms of brakes and other things - but cars these days are fairly robust and as long as you aren't doing crazy mileage, this will still be MUCH better than a PCP every 36 months.


----------



## drdel (Oct 15, 2019)

Peeing with rain so I did a few sums...

Buying a car on finance is often the subject of â€˜creativeâ€™ accounting by ignoring in the total cost the cash flow of the monthly payments.

Letâ€™s assume a potential buyer has a net worth of Â£30k saved that is earning net 3.5% pa after 4 years there would be Â£34,760 sitting in the account.

If a Â£30k car was bought via a PCP loan at 4% pa for 4 years and with a GFV of about 28% e.g. Â£8,400 that would be a loan of Â£21,600. Requiring 48 payments of Â£531 a total of Â£25,488: leaving Â£8,934 in the account (assuming the payment came out of the account and end of year balancing doesnâ€™t reduce the equiv. 3.5%pa) and No car.

Should the buyer pay the cash up front heâ€™d own the car worth Â£8,400 after 4 years BUT heâ€™d have had Â£531 per month potential â€˜savingsâ€™ which at 3%pa (IF compounded monthly) would reach about Â£22k. The result is a net worth of Â£30k.

The issue that is often forgotten is the opportunity cost (e.g. savings) that the payments represent and which are necessary to put you back where you were with your original net worth!


----------



## drdel (Oct 15, 2019)

Something the more mature members might want to note. Some months ago an old guy died. They had a PCP car but it was in his name, the financiers wouldn't talk sensibly to his widow and so the widow was left a with big bill to keep it (but couldn't pay because of probate). She was then left with no car at just the wrong time; adding to her woes.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			Peeing with rain so I did a few sums...

Buying a car on finance is often the subject of â€˜creativeâ€™ accounting by ignoring in the total cost the cash flow of the monthly payments.

Letâ€™s assume a potential buyer has a net worth of Â£30k saved that is earning net 3.5% pa after 4 years there would be Â£34,760 sitting in the account.

If a Â£30k car was bought via a PCP loan at 4% pa for 4 years and with a GFV of about 28% e.g. Â£8,400 that would be a loan of Â£21,600. Requiring 48 payments of Â£531 a total of Â£25,488: leaving Â£8,934 in the account (assuming the payment came out of the account and end of year balancing doesnâ€™t reduce the equiv. 3.5%pa) and No car.

Should the buyer pay the cash up front heâ€™d own the car worth Â£8,400 after 4 years BUT heâ€™d have had Â£531 per month potential â€˜savingsâ€™ which at 3%pa (IF compounded monthly) would reach about Â£22k. The result is a net worth of Â£30k.

The issue that is often forgotten is the opportunity cost (e.g. savings) that the payments represent and which are necessary to put you back where you were with your original net worth!
		
Click to expand...

agree with most of it and is probably how you would do a business case.. also something else that can be added from real world .. when doing a PCP and assume you get a â€˜good dealâ€™ . If it is a new car then you will get manufacturer and dealer contributions. So my 29K magically turned to 24k and my finance was for done for a lower amount.  All I see is that I paid Â£350 for a new motor and then pay 300 odd every month. Low tax and no MOT for 3 years and better efficiency and ability to drive into London. Yes it does deprecate every time I look at it. 

Spot on about the opportunity Cost.. If I had 30k (I wish) then I would be putting that into stocks within ISA with the aim to yeild 8-10% annualised returns. So at the end of a 3-4 year period I would have my balloon payment + the 30k capital


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			Peeing with rain so I did a few sums...

Buying a car on finance is often the subject of â€˜creativeâ€™ accounting by ignoring in the total cost the cash flow of the monthly payments.

Letâ€™s assume a potential buyer has a net worth of Â£30k saved that is earning net 3.5% pa after 4 years there would be Â£34,760 sitting in the account.

If a Â£30k car was bought via a PCP loan at 4% pa for 4 years and with a GFV of about 28% e.g. Â£8,400 that would be a loan of Â£21,600. Requiring 48 payments of Â£531 a total of Â£25,488: leaving Â£8,934 in the account (assuming the payment came out of the account and end of year balancing doesnâ€™t reduce the equiv. 3.5%pa) and No car.

Should the buyer pay the cash up front heâ€™d own the car worth Â£8,400 after 4 years BUT heâ€™d have had Â£531 per month potential â€˜savingsâ€™ which at 3%pa (IF compounded monthly) would reach about Â£22k. The result is a net worth of Â£30k.

The issue that is often forgotten is the opportunity cost (e.g. savings) that the payments represent and which are necessary to put you back where you were with your original net worth!
		
Click to expand...

Would love to see where anyone is earning 3.4% on 30k in savings lol more like 0.25


----------



## Mudball (Oct 15, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Would love to see where anyone is earning 3.4% on 30k in savings lol more like 0.25
		
Click to expand...

use a Stocks and Shares ISA.. choose your stocks & funds carefully ..  hedge them with cyclics and countecyclics.. dont chase trends or 'time the market', invest for longer term..  expect to make some loses but you should get decent return.  You can do 8-10% on it.   Using an ISA will save tax on it.

At the moment, markets are down tnx to Brexit uncertainities, so great time to pick bargains. IMO, donâ€™t invest in anything that drives most revenues from Britain eg BT at the moment if you are looking to pay your balloon payment on current car (while it is heavily discounted share, its market is shrinking and sentiments are against it) 
PS: I am neither anti-British nor a financial advisor so please do your own assessment.


----------



## YamiKuriboh (Oct 15, 2019)

Just wanted to add that a hidden cost of PCP/HP/leasing is that the contract will often say that you need to have a genuine approved or main dealer service at specific intervals. I know mine did when I was on a PCP deal a couple of years ago.

When you own your own car you can take it wherever you want to get serviced â€“ or even do it yourself if you are so inclined. Saves a lot of money.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 15, 2019)

YamiKuriboh said:



			Just wanted to add that a hidden cost of PCP/HP/leasing is that the contract will often say that you need to have a genuine approved or main dealer service at specific intervals. I know mine did when I was on a PCP deal a couple of years ago.

When you own your own car you can take it wherever you want to get serviced â€“ or even do it yourself if you are so inclined. Saves a lot of money.
		
Click to expand...

Agree.. however now manufacturers are falling over each other for warranties and free servicing. Generally speaking you should be alright for the first 3 years..


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2019)

YamiKuriboh said:



			Just wanted to add that a hidden cost of PCP/HP/leasing is that the contract will often say that you need to have a genuine approved or main dealer service at specific intervals. I know mine did when I was on a PCP deal a couple of years ago.

When you own your own car you can take it wherever you want to get serviced â€“ or even do it yourself if you are so inclined. Saves a lot of money.
		
Click to expand...

Most If not all manufacturers warranties require dealer services 

My hrv had offer 5 year servicing Â£600 so wasn't fussed


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2019)

BristolMike said:



			No come on, say what youâ€™re thinking
		
Click to expand...

I did.



Blue in Munich said:



			What other people spend their money on doesn't rile most people; it's the incessant bragging or rubbing other people's noses in it that causes the issues.
		
Click to expand...

No more, no less.  I'd be very surprised if you have never met that sort of person, which is why I said



Blue in Munich said:



			Very much so.  I see it daily in the office.
		
Click to expand...

and 



Blue in Munich said:



			I'm sure you know very well.
		
Click to expand...

If you've never met this sort of person you've either led a very sheltered life, which I doubt, or been very lucky.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Agree.. however now manufacturers are falling over each other for warranties and free servicing. Generally speaking you should be alright for the first 3 years..
		
Click to expand...

That is true, but with the amount of cars now having extended service intervals you will see a greater number of cars between 3 and 8 years old breaking down or needing expensive repairs to keep them on the road.
The stress on an engine oil is too much for the up to 20k service intervals some manufacturers are going to now, and it's only for "enviromental and cost" reasons, not for the good of the car or the used car buyer.


----------



## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Most If not all manufacturers warranties require dealer services

My hrv had offer 5 year servicing Â£600 so wasn't fussed
		
Click to expand...

Not true. The European Block Exemption (sometimes called the OEM Act) states that as long as the servicing agent uses appropriate parts and in line with intervals, warranties remain intact. Too many dealers are spouting this crap and getting away with it.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			Not true. The European Block Exemption (sometimes called the OEM Act) states that as long as the servicing agent uses appropriate parts and in line with intervals, warranties remain intact. Too many dealers are spouting this crap and getting away with it.
		
Click to expand...

However EU rules now mean a dealer has to replace everything they remove from a vehicle under warranty, and if they don't the consequences can be massive.
We had pads replaced on a VW van not that long ago, and they replaced the calliper bolts as well (they now come with the pads). Subsequently one sides bolts came free, and the calliper flopped loose. This was put down to a bolt issue, BUT....when asked why they changed the perfectly good bolts they said its because of EU rules now under warranty terms. Apparently there has been a couple of garages on the continent taken to court and fined heavily having not changed all the bits as they should and something unpleasant happened after.


----------



## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			However EU rules now mean a dealer has to replace everything they remove from a vehicle under warranty, and if they don't the consequences can be massive.
We had pads replaced on a VW van not that long ago, and they replaced the calliper bolts as well (they now come with the pads). Subsequently one sides bolts came free, and the calliper flopped loose. This was put down to a bolt issue, BUT....when asked why they changed the perfectly good bolts they said its because of EU rules now under warranty terms. Apparently there has been a couple of garages on the continent taken to court and fined heavily having not changed all the bits as they should and something unpleasant happened after.
		
Click to expand...

That's incompetence and exceptions to what would normally be done. The Block Exemption still applies and dealers are still using this to dupe and fleece people. 
Which EU rule is this you are referring to? Its been the case for a long time that bolts etc should be replaced when doing high stress components like calipers as the old threadlock will have become useless. If a garage has failed to torque a bolt properly and a caliper has come loose then that's just shit workmanship and nothing to do with the rules.


----------



## Jacko_G (Oct 15, 2019)

So we've gone from new cars, to selfishness, austerity, boasting, warranty and dodgy workmanship!

Love a good GM thread.

Ban phones on the golf course is my input.


----------



## Fade and Die (Oct 15, 2019)

Finally got my Volvo XC40 R Design last week, had to wait 8 weeks because of a shortage of the petrol engine!...absolutely love it so far! 3 year lease Â£320 per month, Â£2k up front, got to be the easiest way to get a new car. 3 years time hand it back, get another one Easy peasy!

*edit sorry to take the thread back on topic!ðŸ˜œ


----------



## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So we've gone from new cars, to selfishness, austerity, boasting, warranty and dodgy workmanship!

Love a good GM thread.

Ban phones on the golf course is my input.
		
Click to expand...

In fairness there is a direct link between new cars, PCPs, the need for servicing as part of a PCP and warranty. And along with that, the myth that the dealer must do the service. Its just wrong and one that dealers scare people with.
BMW wanted Â£330 for my A interval service (oil and air/pollen/oil/fuel filters). Bought all original parts for Â£165 and it took me an hour. Half the price. Its nothing short of a scam.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Finally got my Volvo XC40 R Design last week, had to wait 8 weeks because of a shortage of the petrol engine!...absolutely love it so far! 3 year lease Â£320 per month, Â£2k up front, got to be the easiest way to get a new car. 3 years time hand it back, get another one Easy peasy!

*edit sorry to take the thread back on topic!ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

A mate of mine has one and is chuffed to bits with it. He gave me a lift recently and I was hugely impressed by every aspect. A big leap forward from my own previous Volvo's.


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2019)

Have to say paying interest is dead money. I always look for 0% apr deals. Means a big deposit on occasion but giving away money as interest hurts. I like people to work for their money.
I have used car wow, best thing is to decide on the car be open about colour settle on options and spec. Then haggle like mad.. every thing is open for a haggle. 
I have always managed 18% minimum discount from asking price (which has never been list ) . But there is far more available, if you chase 35% discount they are still making a reasonable profit. Choose time as well end of the month is good .. play the locals off if you can.


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 16, 2019)

YamiKuriboh said:



			When you own your own car you can take it wherever you want to get serviced â€“ or even do it yourself if you are so inclined.* Saves a lot of money.*

Click to expand...

It doesn't.
Trade your car in with a service book stamped with "Joe Bloggs Autos" and I can *guarantee *you won't be offered as much for it than if it had the appropriate main dealers stamps in it.
So you've saved a couple of hundred pounds over 3 years by having it service by Joe Bloggs, but you're offered a couple of hundred pounds more for it when it's been main dealer serviced.
Where's the saving????


----------



## KenL (Oct 16, 2019)

Smiffy said:



			It doesn't.
Trade your car in with a service book stamped with "Joe Bloggs Autos" and I can *guarantee *you won't be offered as much for it than if it had the appropriate main dealers stamps in it.
So you've saved a couple of hundred pounds over 3 years by having it service by Joe Bloggs, but you're offered a couple of hundred pounds more for it when it's been main dealer serviced.
Where's the saving????
		
Click to expand...

The last few cars I've traded in they have never asked about service history other than has it been serviced?


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			Not true. The* European Block Exemption* (sometimes called the OEM Act) states that as long as the servicing agent uses appropriate parts and in line with intervals, warranties remain intact. Too many dealers are spouting this crap and getting away with it.
		
Click to expand...

Is this another thing we can ignore after Halloween?.... Sign me up Scotty


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Finally got my Volvo* XC40 R Design *last week, had to wait 8 weeks because of a shortage of the petrol engine!...absolutely love it so far! 3 year lease Â£320 per month, Â£2k up front, got to be the easiest way to get a new car. 3 years time hand it back, get another one Easy peasy!

*edit sorry to take the thread back on topic!ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

It was one of the cars on my list but never got around to seeing it.   Have they updated it to the XC90 standards?  My local Volvo guys are very stingy when it comes to deals.  Tried a lot with them when i was in the market a few years ago and they would not budge.  Played the normal car salesman trick of 'you should speak to my manager and this is the best deal'...  ended up buying a better speced XC60 from the midlands.  Now its coming up for renewal, suddenly I am plantium invitee.  :0  CarWow has flattened the market.


----------



## rulefan (Oct 16, 2019)

My son is just changing his XC60 for a new one.
He had the first on a 4 year deal but he was so pleased with it he kept it and changed after 9 years and 200,000 miles. Pleased as punch with the new spec but it only comes as automatic. Nearly 4k cheaper that the opposition.


----------



## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			It was one of the cars on my list but never got around to seeing it.   Have they updated it to the XC90 standards?  My local Volvo guys are very stingy when it comes to deals.  Tried a lot with them when i was in the market a few years ago and they would not budge.  Played the normal car salesman trick of 'you should speak to my manager and this is the best deal'...  ended up buying a better speced XC60 from the midlands.  Now its coming up for renewal, suddenly I am plantium invitee.  :0  CarWow has flattened the market.
		
Click to expand...

Think the 40,60 and 90 are all very similar inside now, with the huge touchscreen controlling most of the equipment. My last car was the xc60 but I wanted something a little smaller so my wife would drive it more. Was interested in the BMW X1 or x2 but the local garage was hopeless, but like you about a month after I had pulled the trigger on the Volvo the Bmw dealer called me launching into a speil about an invitation only event, special deals blah blah blah. 
Loving the 40 so far even though some of the features like the Lane departure warning system takes a bit of getting used to. Basically if you donâ€™t indicate the thing swerves you back into your lane! Did cause a panic 1st time it happened!ðŸ˜¬


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Think the 40,60 and 90 are all very similar inside now, with the huge touchscreen controlling most of the equipment. My last car was the xc60 but I wanted something a little smaller so my wife would drive it more. Was interested in the BMW X1 or x2 but the local garage was hopeless, but like you about a month after I had pulled the trigger on the Volvo the Bmw dealer called me launching into a speil about an invitation only event, special deals blah blah blah.
Loving the 40 so far even though some of the features like the Lane departure warning system takes a bit of getting used to.* Basically if you donâ€™t indicate the thing swerves you back into your lane! Did cause a panic 1st time it happened!ðŸ˜¬*

Click to expand...

Presumably you can turn this off. Should be somewhere in the settings.


----------



## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably you can turn this off. Should be somewhere in the settings.
		
Click to expand...

Yes itâ€™s straightforward enough but as itâ€™s a safety feature and I do take a few long journeys a year to Cumbria and the Highlands I think I should try to get used to it rather than disable it. I think it only operates over a certain speed, maybe 50mph? It doesnâ€™t work around town, not sussed it all out yet, only done 105 miles!


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably you can turn this off. Should be somewhere in the settings.
		
Click to expand...

i hope so, else my 'non/late indicating' Mrs would look like a proper drunk loony swearing from side to side while she drives


----------



## Imurg (Oct 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			i hope so, else my 'non/late indicating' Mrs would look like a proper drunk loony swearing from side to side while she drives
		
Click to expand...

With added road rage too by the sound of it....


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

Imurg said:



			With added road rage too by the sound of it....

Click to expand...

swerving - swearing ... to-mato - tooma-to  same difference


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably you can turn this off. Should be somewhere in the settings.
		
Click to expand...

Why would you want to??? Helps reduces accidents and gets people to signal


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Why would you want to??? Helps reduces accidents and gets people to signal
		
Click to expand...

If it is over sensitive it can also be a pain in the backside. People have managed for this long without having this device, it is not really a critical extra.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Why would you want to??? Helps reduces accidents and gets people to signal
		
Click to expand...

So when confronted by a situation which means you need to change lane urgently, the system will swing you back into the very danger you are trying to avoid because you didnâ€™t indicate; that sounds like a good reason to turn it off to me.


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So when confronted by a situation which means you need to change lane urgently, the system will swing you back into the very danger you are trying to avoid because you didnâ€™t indicate; that sounds like a good reason to turn it off to me.
		
Click to expand...

It can be overridden by holding the steering wheel past it. It only eases back in you just keep steering through

Simple


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it is over sensitive it can also be a pain in the backside. People have managed for this long without having this device, it is not really a critical extra.
		
Click to expand...

The good intention behind it was to wake u up if you fall asleep .. (I think)


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It can be overridden by holding the steering wheel past it. It only eases back in you just keep steering through

Simple
		
Click to expand...

It might be simple if you realise that in the heat of the moment.  Let's hope drivers are properly trained to understand it...


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The good intention behind it was to wake u up if you fall asleep .. (I think)
		
Click to expand...

I think you're right regarding the intention, not sure how successful it will be or if it is actually necessary.


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It might be simple if you realise that in the heat of the moment.  Let's hope drivers are properly trained to understand it...
		
Click to expand...

Jesus it's not rocket science man. Ive had a car that has it and it's simple to use.

It's a safety feature That's added by very smart people designed to make driving safer .. so let's trust these people who pretty much know more than your average Joe


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Jesus it's not rocket science man. Ive had a car that has it and it's simple to use.

It's a safety feature That's added by very smart people designed to make driving safer .. so let's trust these people who pretty much know more than your average Joe
		
Click to expand...

You're probably not old enough to have seen the issues ABS created when it first came in, so why don't you wind your neck in a bit & appreciate the fact that others on here have seen issues with this sort of thing before and therefore retain a degree of justified skepticism.

As for making driving safer, the easiest way to do that would be to train the vast majority to a higher standard, not create technology that is supposed to address drivers' deficiencies.


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You're probably not old enough to have seen the issues ABS created when it first came in, so why don't you wind your neck in a bit & appreciate the fact that others on here have seen issues with this sort of thing before and therefore retain a degree of justified skepticism.

As for making driving safer, the easiest way to do that would be to train the vast majority to a higher standard, not create technology that is supposed to address drivers' deficiencies.
		
Click to expand...

Accidents happen regardless how trained people are

Any tech that can help reduce that is a good thing.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Accidents happen regardless how trained people are

Any tech that can help reduce that is a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Considerably less accidents will happen if people were properly trained.  

The point you're missing is tech only helps if the driver fully understands it and works with it; as other tech has proved in the past, that isn't always the case.  And frankly, the more tech that is introduced, the more drivers will rely on it and the further driving standards will fall.


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Considerably less accidents will happen if people were properly trained. 

The point you're missing is tech only helps if the driver fully understands it and works with it; as other tech has proved in the past, that isn't always the case.  And frankly, the more tech that is introduced, the more drivers will rely on it and the further driving standards will fall.
		
Click to expand...

Accidents can happen between two highly trained drivers due to anything .. 

Accidents happen
Yes better drivers might help reduce accidents however the standards are what they are 

Technology helps saves life's 

It's a clever bit of tech and it works.


----------



## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Accidents can happen between two highly trained drivers due to anything ..

Accidents happen
Yes better drivers might help reduce accidents however the standards are what they are

Technology helps saves life's

It's a clever bit of tech and it works.
		
Click to expand...

Calm down ladies.. in less than 10 years, no need for driver training.. we will all be in driverless cars .. imagine that


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So when confronted by a situation which means you need to change lane urgently, the system will swing you back into the very danger you are trying to avoid because you didnâ€™t indicate; that sounds like a good reason to turn it off to me.
		
Click to expand...

I think the OP with his "swerve" comment was possibly being a little over dramatic. 
If not, I think there is a problem with his particular car rather than the technology involved.
You should feel a gentle movement through the wheel which can easily be overcome by slightly firmer input from the driver. 
Certainly, the steering effort involved when changing lanes urgently in an emergency situation would easily be enough to override any correction by the inbuilt safety system. I doubt if you'd even feel it, it's that gentle in it's operation.
Ultimately, technology like this will save lives. I personally know of two accidents in recent times where lane keeping technology would have helped, and *could* have prevented one death. An audible alert would have warned the women who fell asleep at the wheel of her car on the A269, and the technology would have prevented her from ploughing into the innocent motorcyclist coming the other way, killing him instantly.
Surely a little twitch on the steering wheel is a small price to pay for saving a life???


----------



## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

How is the new car market doing from a Dealerâ€™s point of view ?? I think we have someone working at a dealers ( @Smiffy ??) what happens to all these reasonably good cars at the end of PCP. With the pressure to shift new rather than used, surely there is a ticking asset bomb somewhere in the supply chain


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Calm down ladies.. in less than 10 years, no need for driver training.. we will all be in driverless cars .. imagine that
		
Click to expand...

That could be like a Tomorrow's World hover car. The promise of driverless cars but do we want them? It is going to be way past 10 years before they are common.


----------



## Smiffy (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How is the new car market doing from a Dealerâ€™s point of view ?? I think we have someone working at a dealers ( @Smiffy ??) what happens to all these reasonably good cars at the end of PCP. With the pressure to shift new rather than used, surely there is a ticking asset bomb somewhere in the supply chain
		
Click to expand...

Good quality used cars are always in short supply. The vast majority of PCP customers will re-new at end of term so we just take them in part exchange and can move them on fairly quickly. Very few just hand the car back. and if they do we have the option to buy them or the finance company will arrange to remarket them on the Peugeot dealership website. But they are not a problem....


----------

