# Don't Pay UK



## road2ruin (Aug 3, 2022)

Wanted to start a separate thread on this rather than clog up the other energy ones and @bobmac just mentioned it on the Bulb thread so thought it would be interesting to see what people's thoughts are. 

It's got 80,000 followers on Twitter and you've got people live Martin Lewis and Dominic Cummings mentioning it who both have huge reach. Personally I think these calls for action tend to die off but with the cost of energy getting to the point where it might actually not be a choice for a lot of people this one could have legs. You've got the different segments of society based on wealth and this particular crisis seems to be getting higher up the wealth ladder than anything I can remember. 

You've then got the energy companies announcing record profits whilst also increasing prices with the cap going up every 3 months. 

The idea of the Don't Pay is that they're after a million pledges by October 1st which would mean that they couldn't cut everyone off and you'd be forcing the government into action with the energy companies to sort this out as, at present, you've got the cap rising every 3 months and that is now looking like lasting well into 2023 and beyond.


----------



## SaintHacker (Aug 3, 2022)

Got my backing 100%. Some kind of mass protest that hits the shareholders directly where it hurts is the only way things will change.


----------



## theoneandonly (Aug 3, 2022)

You'll still have to pay in the end. Plus they can cut you off if you don't.


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Got my backing 100%. Some kind of mass protest that hits the shareholders directly where it hurts is the only way things will change.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately many of us normal folk are shareholders in these companies.


----------



## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Wanted to start a separate thread on this rather than clog up the other energy ones and @bobmac just mentioned it on the Bulb thread so thought it would be interesting to see what people's thoughts are.

It's got 80,000 followers on Twitter and you've got people live Martin Lewis and Dominic Cummings mentioning it who both have huge reach. Personally I think these calls for action tend to die off but with the cost of energy getting to the point where it might actually not be a choice for a lot of people this one could have legs. You've got the different segments of society based on wealth and this particular crisis seems to be getting higher up the wealth ladder than anything I can remember.

You've then got the energy companies announcing record profits whilst also increasing prices with the cap going up every 3 months.

The idea of the Don't Pay is that they're after a million pledges by October 1st which would mean that they couldn't cut everyone off and you'd be forcing the government into action with the energy companies to sort this out as, at present, you've got the cap rising every 3 months and that is now looking like lasting well into 2023 and beyond.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, profits by companies such as energy/fuel companies tend to increase in the period immediately before/as consumer costs increase. So I have some (not much!) sympathy with the companies involved. Martin Lewis is definitely a consumer advocate but Dominic Cummings is not someone I have any respect for! The best thing he could do, imo, is go dig and live in a hole at Barnard Castle!


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2022)

And so it seems that mass protest is OK if it’s against something that affects me but not OK if it doesn’t - then it’s just an inconvenience to me getting on with my life?  Watch out or there will be legislation constraining this mass protest stuff. Oh hold on…😖

In any case isn’t it great that our government sees it as fine to subsidise the power companies profits - as essentially that is what they are doing through their ‘support’ to us and our gas and electricity bills.  Funny old world.


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 3, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You'll still have to pay in the end. Plus they can cut you off if you don't.
		
Click to expand...

You’re probably correct although if it reaches the million mark (or beyond) who knows where it could end up. Martin Lewis was suggesting it could go the same way as the Poll Tax. The could well be a tipping point especially if you’ve got a lot of those who were previously ‘comfortable’ who suddenly cannot afford it. Something will have to give.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You'll still have to pay in the end. Plus they can cut you off if you don't.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure that they can any more, I think legislation was brought in to stop that…might be wrong so will go check.

….checked…they can’t cut you off if you are a pensioner and it’s winter months, otherwise they will most likely put you on a repayment plan rather than cut you off.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 4, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not sure that they can any more, I think legislation was brought in to stop that…might be wrong so will go check.

….checked…they can’t cut you off if you are a pensioner and it’s winter months, otherwise they will most likely put you on a repayment plan rather than cut you off.
		
Click to expand...

They could install pre-payment meters such that you cut yourself off if you don't pay.  However if millions of people don't pay then it would be impossible to install that number of pre-pay meters.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Aug 4, 2022)

Why has no one asked why energy companies that make a point of their renewable energy amounts still charge the same as the fossil fuel based stuff?
I don’t advocate non payment, to me this is a short term spike. A long term energy use adjustment is a better way in my thinking.


----------



## GreiginFife (Aug 4, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why has no one asked why energy companies that make a point of their renewable energy amounts still charge the same as the fossil fuel based stuff?
I don’t advocate non payment, to me this is a short term spike. A long term energy use adjustment is a better way in my thinking.
		
Click to expand...

Check the Bulb thread, last few posts have been about exactly that.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 4, 2022)

Why aren't people demanding that the Government be in charge of Energy, as in Ministry of Power etc as it was. Then the nation had someone to demand action from.
Now, it is morally difficult to demand the government control, in effect run, a privately owned company. In the final analysis the government can say it cannot force the situation.
The Poll tax pressure worked because it was the Government you were( not) paying.😉


----------



## bobmac (Aug 4, 2022)

According to some sources, the cost of fuel will increase by 78% on October 1
Fuel companies profits trebling and going through the roof
Billions of £s to shareholders

*AND*

They get subsidised with significant tax breaks to dig for more oil

What more will it take for the people to say no?


----------



## theoneandonly (Aug 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			According to some sources, the cost of fuel will increase by 78% on October 1
Fuel companies profits trebling and going through the roof
Billions of £s to shareholders

*AND*

They get subsidised with significant tax breaks to dig for more oil

What more will it take for the people to say no?
		
Click to expand...

A lot of those shareholders are pension funds, not as straight forward as it seems.... But yeah its a load of


----------



## bobmac (Aug 4, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			A lot of those shareholders are pension funds, not as straight forward as it seems.... But yeah its a load of 

Click to expand...

£2.7m profit a day, every day.

The problems are caused by spiralling costs which are passed on to the customer.
Just a thought, maybe reduce the obscene increase in profits and instead, make an affordable increase in cost to the customer in line with inflation.
That would get my vote.


----------



## Fade and Die (Aug 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			According to some sources, the cost of fuel will increase by 78% on October 1
Fuel companies profits trebling and going through the roof
Billions of £s to shareholders

*AND*

They get subsidised with significant tax breaks to dig for more oil

What more will it take for the people to say no?
		
Click to expand...

According to this article they are predicting a rise of 74% after the tax cut u-turn… 

https://inews.co.uk/news/consumer/e...ediction-rishi-sunak-u-turn-vat-bills-1764613

Here’s a fun fact for you:

The guy who did the U-turn could afford to pay a £3,500 annual energy bill from his personal fortune for 46,751 years without earning anything extra. 

Man of the people 👍


Maybe a bit of civil unrest *is* required. I do admire the French is this area. They really do commit to it. Not like our wishy washy protesters... A bit of rioting then all home for tea!


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 4, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			According to this article they are predicting a rise of 74% after the tax cut u-turn…

https://inews.co.uk/news/consumer/e...ediction-rishi-sunak-u-turn-vat-bills-1764613

Here’s a fun fact for you:

The guy who did the U-turn could afford to pay a £3,500 annual energy bill from his personal fortune for 46,751 years without earning anything extra.

Man of the people 👍


Maybe a bit of civil unrest *is* required. I do admire the French is this area. They really do commit to it. Not like our wishy washy protesters... A bit of rioting then all home for tea!
		
Click to expand...

In France it's not a riot unless a lorry has been set on fire


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 4, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Got my backing 100%. Some kind of mass protest that hits the shareholders directly where it hurts is the only way things will change.
		
Click to expand...

 It is worth remembering that shareholders are not necessarily rich in the first place and many will rely upon dividends to pay their own bills. Lots of shares are actually owned by pension companies and they use the money to pay out the annuities (people who have already started to draw the their pensions).


----------



## Pants (Aug 4, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			It is worth remembering that shareholders are not necessarily rich in the first place and many will rely upon dividends to pay their own bills. Lots of shares are actually owned by pension companies and they use the money to pay out the annuities (people who have already started to draw the their pensions).
		
Click to expand...

And of course annuities rates paid do not vary according as to how the underlying investments perform.  If they do well then the insurance company paying the annuity benefits, not the annuient.  With current annuity rates, I cannot see how anyone would be better off long term converting their pension fund to one.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 5, 2022)

My pension fund has shares in these companies. The dividends pay my pension.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 5, 2022)

rulefan said:



			My pension fund has shares in these companies. The dividends pay my pension.
		
Click to expand...

So?
No-one is asking you to take a drop in your pension


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 5, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why aren't people demanding that the Government be in charge of Energy, as in Ministry of Power etc as it was. Then the nation had someone to demand action from.
Now, it is morally difficult to demand the government control, in effect run, a privately owned company. In the final analysis the government can say it cannot force the situation.
The Poll tax pressure worked because it was the Government you were( not) paying.😉
		
Click to expand...

Trying to walk a fine line. By stating facts Not political opinion. In 1979, the conservatives under Margaret Thatcher sold a 5% share in BP. That took the governments/ public share in ownership of BP to 49%. it obviously then became a minor shareholder with a view to privatisation of BP. That happened in 1987 ish. The point of privatisation was that as a consumer (Me and you) could shop around for the cheapest deals. That was not just BP/ Energy But water, electricity etc etc. Turned out well didn’t it. 🤬


----------



## chellie (Aug 5, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Trying to walk a fine line. By stating facts Not political opinion. In 1979, the conservatives under Margaret Thatcher sold a 5% share in BP. That took the governments/ public share in ownership of BP to 49%. it obviously then became a minor shareholder with a view to privatisation of BP. That happened in 1987 ish. The point of privatisation was that as a consumer (Me and you) could shop around for the cheapest deals. That was not just BP/ Energy But water, electricity etc etc. Turned out well didn’t it. 🤬
		
Click to expand...

We can't shop around for water.


----------



## theoneandonly (Aug 5, 2022)

At least we're a sovereign nation again 🤣


----------



## IanM (Aug 5, 2022)

Was ok when you got better deals.   Folk were on here bragging about it.  

Then the Ruskies decide to kick off and guess what.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So?
No-one is asking you to take a drop in your pension
		
Click to expand...

Profits go down. Dividends go down. Pension fund income goes down. No working contributors to fund. Fund can't pay pension. Skint.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 5, 2022)

chellie said:



			We can't shop around for water.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. Nor, in reality, for the others. (BTW, I think Tashy is being a bit sarcy 😀)
But it isn't just about prices.( though that is important). It's about control of  utilities vital to the security and vital functionality of a Country. They should not be under the control,of private companies, some of whom are foreign.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 5, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Profits go down. Dividends go down. Pension fund income goes down. No working contributors to fund. Fund can't pay pension. Skint.
		
Click to expand...

Energy prices went up 57% in April.
Energy companies reported their biggest profits for 14 years. £2.7m per day and shareholders receiving £4Billion
And now they are poised to put their prices up by a *further 78%* in October.
My energy bill Oct 21 was £83
October 22 will be £262
So you'll forgive me if I don't feel sorry for the obscene profits that are going to be made and therefor increased dividends and pensions.

Skint? I don't think so


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 5, 2022)

chellie said:



			We can't shop around for water.
		
Click to expand...

Swing low and slow nailed it.👍 When “ privatisation “ was sold to the public at the time one of the strong selling points was private sector meant lesser bills and the fact that the taxpayer would not be paying for nationalised company losses. A quick look in Wikipedia shows how many companies were privatised. And how much money we are saving 🤬sarcasm again 😁👍


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 5, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. Nor, in reality, for the others. (BTW, I think Tashy is being a bit sarcy 😀)
But it isn't just about prices.( though that is important). It's about control of  utilities vital to the security and vital functionality of a Country. They should not be under the control,of private companies, some of whom are foreign.
		
Click to expand...

The two sentences hits the nail on the head. An example, The coal mine that is creating a lot of discussion in Cumbria produces coal that is important for the steel industry, we don’t have our own supply and once more we are at the mercy of other countries.


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2022)

Pants said:



			And of course annuities rates paid do not vary according as to how the underlying investments perform.  If they do well then the insurance company paying the annuity benefits, not the annuient.  With current annuity rates, I cannot see how anyone would be better off long term converting their pension fund to one.
		
Click to expand...

 Back when I was in the game there was a period when annuity rates were between 10 and 13% the companies must have lost loads on paying those out in the long term. Swings and roundabouts really.

I managed to lock in with a very small pension when they were 8% but inflation in the intervening years has seriously decreased the real long term value of it. My regret was not opting for an increasing annuity but I believed at the time I would not be around long enough to see the benefit (it takes 14 years to break even on a 5% increasing annuity).

Trouble is you reach an age when you must convert the pension to an annuity regardless of the rate (at least that was the rule back when I as doing it). Even then would you lose out in the long term because of the number of years it might be paid if you wait that long.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2022)

rulefan said:



			My pension fund has shares in these companies. The dividends pay my pension.
		
Click to expand...

The issue is the size of profit increase during a time when people's energy prices are trebling.
It's fair enough for share holders to receive dividends but not at the expense of families being fleeced.

Do you agree?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Aug 6, 2022)

I can't see this actually happening. It's easy to add your name to an internet petition claiming that you're going to do this and cancel the direct debit, but when it comes to the crunch how many of those people are going to be willing to take the hit to their credit rating and also potentially have a more expensive pre-payment meter fitted when they stop paying their bill? It will be purely a waiting game for the energy companies. They're going to end up getting their money, one way or another, whether that's through those that cancel the direct debit keeping the money aside to pay later or by setting people up on payment plans. Something needs to be done as the current price rises are unsustainable but I don't think that this is what's going to make the change.


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The issue is the size of profit increase during a time when people's energy prices are trebling.
It's fair enough for share holders to receive dividends but not at the expense of families being fleeced.

Do you agree?
		
Click to expand...

The whole point of these companies that are making billions is that “Everyone” benefitted when they were Nationalised. Not only would we now have the cheapest energy bills in Europe. Excess profits would surely mean lower taxes or better services. What we now  have is a situation where pensions including mine get dividends to enhance one’s pension yet some folk cannot afford to keep warm through the winter. And that don’t sit right with me.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can't see this actually happening. It's easy to add your name to an internet petition claiming that you're going to do this and cancel the direct debit, but when it comes to the crunch how many of those people are going to be willing to take the hit to their credit rating and also potentially have a more expensive pre-payment meter fitted when they stop paying their bill? It will be purely a waiting game for the energy companies. They're going to end up getting their money, one way or another, whether that's through those that cancel the direct debit keeping the money aside to pay later or by setting people up on payment plans. Something needs to be done as the current price rises are unsustainable but I don't think that this is what's going to make the change.
		
Click to expand...

Public protest by large numbers tends to be a powerful lobbying force with Governments.  There are very large numbers of people who just don't have the money to pay the proposed increases so what do they have to lose.  If many millions protest then the energy companies will find it very difficult to do anything.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2022)

Slightly OT but in the same vein.

Scotland tops the 4 nations for failure to pay the BBC tax.
16%
NI and Wales not far behind.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			At least we're a sovereign nation again 🤣
		
Click to expand...

Two nations in fact.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2022)

For many of the poorest in work and on benefits it will be Can’t Pay UK.  Why it is that those who just don’t have the wherewithal or any savings can’t get specific directed support I do not know, though I suppose we who are much more fortunate and able to pay, even though it might hurt or require some sacrifice, can all hazard a guess.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 9, 2022)

Well looks like it is going to be a summer of discontent...  now we have 'Enough is Enough' campaign kicking off.   Maybe too left wing for a golf forum.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 9, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For many of the poorest in work and on benefits it will be Can’t Pay UK.  Why it is that those who just don’t have the wherewithal or any savings can’t get specific directed support I do not know, though I suppose we who are much more fortunate and able to pay, even though it might hurt or require some sacrifice, can all hazard a guess.
		
Click to expand...

It's not as simple as that H.  If it were,how  many would claim they had nothing , weren't capable of getting anything, would decide to stop work and put themselves in the qualification zone , to claim your money? etc.  . And then you'd have those who don't want or intend to work , expecting those that do work to pay for them become too high a percentage of a society for it to survive! ( you have that now, but making it as easy as you suggest would open the floodgates)
A situation like that is what many , rightly, will not accept: but, unfortunately, that view becomes hardened to , wrongly, tar all with that brush .Even those who are poor or cannot pay their way through no fault of their own. 
When that attitude prevails you finish up with a situation where some are expected to work for 40 hours a week in essential jobs for less than a living wage.!
All this polarisation of this question does nothing for a stable society.

This energy crisis is going to embrace many who are working hard and trying their best, because it has gone far beyond reasonable. Many who are just keeping their heads above water are going to be "sunk" by these latest massive increases.
And it's no good taking the" Tebbit" 'Get on yer bike ' attitude. That is unfair.

What worries me is that I have seen (too) many posts on forums which are clearly unsympathetic , saying things like those who are moaning about not being able to manage are still buying takeaways several times a week , etc etc. Yes,  there are some like that but they are a minority of the people these unprecedented rises  are going to hit.
We are seeing what someone once called the "unacceptable face of capitalism ", but the answer is not giving money to all , willy nilly.


----------



## SaintHacker (Aug 9, 2022)

Latest prediction is the January price cap will go over £4200 Without going down the P word route this is clearly beyond taking the urine, yet no-one on any kind of power seems to want to do anyting about it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Latest prediction is the January price cap will go over £4200 Without going down the P word route this is clearly beyond taking the urine, yet no-one on any kind of power seems to want to do anyting about it.
		
Click to expand...

There are only a select one or two who _can_ do anything about it and let’s not think or be told otherwise.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

The CEO of OFGEM has advised the British public not to take part in the refusal to pay.
The CEO of OFGEM is Jonathan Brearley, who earns over £300,000 per year


----------



## SaintHacker (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The CEO of OFGEM has advised the British public not to take part in the refusal to pay.
The CEO of OFGEM is Jonathan Brearley, who earns over £300,000 per year
		
Click to expand...

Funny that
I will continue to pay but only what i can afford, if that means cancelling my direct debit and paying slightly more then so ve it. Why should my family have to potentially choose not to eat over heating when these millionaire directors are just getting richer. The whole thing stinks.


----------



## Beezerk (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The CEO of OFGEM has advised the British public not to take part in the refusal to pay.
The CEO of OFGEM is Jonathan Brearley, who earns over £300,000 per year
		
Click to expand...

How much does his salary have to do with this? If he’s worked his way to the top fair play to the lad and I’m sure his salary reflects the pressures of his role.
I hate it when people have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to someone’s salary.


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

Norway talking about reducing power exports due to drought conditions going to push prices even higher.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			How much does his salary have to do with this? If he’s worked his way to the top fair play to the lad and I’m sure his salary reflects the pressures of his role.
I hate it when people have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to someone’s salary.
		
Click to expand...

Because his life will not be affected by this increase in energy bills.


----------



## Beezerk (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Because his life will not be affected by this increase in energy bills.
		
Click to expand...

So you would rather the head of OFGEM be paid peanuts for his role? At least then he’ll feel the pinch as well 🧐


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			So you would rather the head of OFGEM be paid peanuts for his role? At least then he’ll feel the pinch as well 🧐
		
Click to expand...

No, I'd expect him to do his job.

_Ofgem is Great Britain’s independent energy regulator._

_We work to protect energy consumers, especially vulnerable people, by ensuring they are treated fairly and benefit from a cleaner, greener environment._

_We are responsible for:_


_*working with government, industry and consumer groups to deliver a net-zero economy, at the lowest cost to consumers*_
*stamping out sharp and bad practice, ensuring fair treatment for all consumers, especially the vulnerable*
_*enabling competition and innovation, which drives down prices and results in new products and services for consumers.*_
_*https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/about-us/our-role-and-responsibilities*_


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			No, I'd expect him to do his job.

_Ofgem is Great Britain’s independent energy regulator._

_We work to protect energy consumers, especially vulnerable people, by ensuring they are treated fairly and benefit from a cleaner, greener environment._

_We are responsible for:_


_*working with government, industry and consumer groups to deliver a net-zero economy, at the lowest cost to consumers*_
*stamping out sharp and bad practice, ensuring fair treatment for all consumers, especially the vulnerable*
_*enabling competition and innovation, which drives down prices and results in new products and services for consumers.*_


Click to expand...

And how do you know he is not trying his best to do those things?

Maybe apply for the job. I’m sure if you state you will do if for a much lower salary they will gladly have you.


----------



## Beezerk (Aug 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			And how do you know he is not trying his best to do those things?

Maybe apply for the job. I’m sure if you state you will do if for a much lower salary they will gladly have you.
		
Click to expand...

I was going to ask how he is supposed to keep prices low when the product arriving at our shores is soaring in value by the day?


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			I was going to ask how he is supposed to keep prices low when the product arriving at our shores is *soaring in value by the day?*

Click to expand...


In March this year, oil was $119 a barrel and my fuel bill was £83.

Today, oil is $92 a barrel and my bill is 54% higher at £147 which I'm told will rise a further 78% in about 8 weeks to £262 
Just in time for winter.
But we're told not to complain by people who won't be affected by this increase, described by Martin Lewis as ''catastrophic''
Why don't you look at your energy bill for last year and add 54%. Then take the new figure and add 78% and see what you'll pay in October. 
And if you really want to have some fun you can add another 15% in January


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			In March this year, oil was $119 a barrel and my fuel bill was £83.

Today, oil is $92 a barrel and my bill is 54% higher at £147 which I'm told will rise a further 78% in about 8 weeks to £262
Just in time for winter.
But we're told not to complain by people who won't be affected by this increase, described by Martin Lewis as ''catastrophic''
Why don't you look at your energy bill for last year and add 54%. Then take the new figure and add 78% and see what you'll pay in October.
And if you really want to have some fun you can add another 15% in January
		
Click to expand...

Its not the oil price you need to look at for household energy bills its gas.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			How much does his salary have to do with this? If he’s worked his way to the top fair play to the lad and I’m sure his salary reflects the pressures of his role.
I hate it when people have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to someone’s salary.
		
Click to expand...

Pressures of his role, yea, yea, 🙄.
The point being made was the moral futility of someone doing very nicely, thank you, saying to someone desperate to make ends meet, through no fault of their own.
"!Don't rock my boat, there's a good chap"


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 9, 2022)

greenone said:



			Its not the oil price you need to look at for household energy bills its gas.
		
Click to expand...

 Ditto to this.

Last week Hinkley B Nuclear Electricity generator was taken off line for good. To replace what they generated all the gas fired generators are going to have to turn up production which means they will have to buy more gas.

Hinkley C will not come on line until 2027, at the earliest.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

greenone said:



			Its not the oil price you need to look at for household energy bills its gas.
		
Click to expand...

How much has that increased by?


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 9, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			So you would rather the head of OFGEM be paid peanuts for his role? At least then he’ll feel the pinch as well 🧐
		
Click to expand...

No, a reasonable salary.  The. P.M  gets what? half as much.?


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			Hinkley C will not come on line until 2027, at the earliest.
		
Click to expand...

Another obscene waste of money


----------



## jim8flog (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Another obscene waste of money
		
Click to expand...

 Given the high probability we will will run out of gas sometime in the future (not in my life time probably) a wise investment as far as I am concerned.

There was a time when North Sea Gas produced enough for all our needs they now only produce 50%.


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How much has that increased by?
		
Click to expand...

Its up and down like a yo-yo.

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/uk-natural-gas


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How much has that increased by?
		
Click to expand...

700% - and as mentioned elsewhere it is mainky due to Putin and short sighted planning by European politicians

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news...700-Percent-in-2022-So-Far-20220707-0018.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...se-here-s-why?fromMostRead=true&sref=QycjPqYS


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Another obscene waste of money
		
Click to expand...

Need base load coming from somewhere when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Another obscene waste of money
		
Click to expand...

How do you propose we generate enough electricity domestically without it?


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			700% - and as mentioned elsewhere it is mainky due to Putin and short sighted planning by European politicians

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news...700-Percent-in-2022-So-Far-20220707-0018.html

Click to expand...

To be fair i think all politicians are complicit.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

I've read we only get 3-4% of our gas from Russia and the rest from the continental shelf and Norway who I've read have lowered their prices?
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/06/gas...nt-steps-in-to-end-an-oil-and-gas-strike.html


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 9, 2022)

greenone said:



			To be fair i think all politicians are complicit.
		
Click to expand...

agree to a large degree. Pushing the green agenda has forced away investment in the North Sea where we could have been producing our own oil and gas rather than importing so much - and the ironic thing is that imports are less green. The whole Energy security and significantly reducing reliance on authoritarian regimes - particularly Russia and China - should be front and centre of what we (and other western, democratic nations) do over the coming decade. We need massive incentives to encourage the energy giants and others in other industries to invest in home grown oil/ gas and other manufacturing etc etc. Much of the energy component will be Green but we need the carbons as well until we have enough base load and other energy sources on line. And that could include fracking - what has made the US an energy colossus and relatively insulated from what is happening in Europe. Why have we not pushed tidal power  (base load unlike wind and solar as totally predictable) - there was supposed to be a £1bn small scheme in Swansea, followed by a £7bn scheme in Cardiff. And what of the Bristol Channel option. We have a huge coatline and the biggest todal range in the world, We should have been pushing this, turning domestic companies into world leaders in this area and thus creating massive export opportunities


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've read we only get 3-4% of our gas from Russia and the rest from the continental shelf and Norway who I've read have lowered their prices?
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/06/gas...nt-steps-in-to-end-an-oil-and-gas-strike.html

Click to expand...

that is talking about a 1 day fall! Norway also now likely to cut electic to UK through interconnector

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...ls-as-norway-threatens-electricity-export-cut


----------



## greenone (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've read we only get 3-4% of our gas from Russia and the rest from the continental shelf and Norway who I've read have lowered their prices?
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/06/gas...nt-steps-in-to-end-an-oil-and-gas-strike.html

Click to expand...

Its a world market, so the price goes up wherever it comes from.


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 9, 2022)

greenone said:



			Its a world market, so the price goes up wherever it comes from.
		
Click to expand...

Bbbbbbbbut we took back control!!


----------



## bobmac (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm off down town to buy some new jumpers and slippers.
Not too many though as I've just read my pension next year will rise by 3.75%


----------



## Mudball (Aug 9, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			agree to a large degree. Pushing the green agenda has forced away investment in the North Sea where we could have been producing our own oil and gas rather than importing so much - and the ironic thing is that imports are less green. The whole Energy security and significantly reducing reliance on authoritarian regimes - particularly Russia and China - should be front and centre of what we (and other western, democratic nations) do over the coming decade. We need massive incentives to encourage the energy giants and others in other industries to invest in home grown oil/ gas and other manufacturing etc etc. Much of the energy component will be Green but we need the carbons as well until we have enough base load and other energy sources on line. And that could include fracking - what has made the US an energy colossus and relatively insulated from what is happening in Europe. Why have we not pushed tidal power  (base load unlike wind and solar as totally predictable) - there was supposed to be a £1bn small scheme in Swansea, followed by a £7bn scheme in Cardiff. And what of the Bristol Channel option. We have a huge coatline and the biggest todal range in the world, We should have been pushing this, turning domestic companies into world leaders in this area and thus creating massive export opportunities
		
Click to expand...

Dont blame green agenda for stopping investments.   We have decades of mismanagement in this space.  We have been quick to stop investments in north sea.... But we did not make the equivalent investment into renewables.  Instead we chose to rely on our european partners to deliver cheap leccy & gas.  We have been building Hinkley point nuclear for ages and still cant do it.   So quick to shut down investment but not to redirect.  As you say there are lots of opportunities in our land, but not the political will to do it.  Ofcouse we take every opportunity to blame the tree huggers and world markets for every problem.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 9, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Dont blame green agenda for stopping investments.   We have decades of mismanagement in this space.  We have been quick to stop investments in north sea.... But we did not make the equivalent investment into renewables.  Instead we chose to rely on our european partners to deliver cheap leccy & gas.  We have been building Hinkley point nuclear for ages and still cant do it.   So quick to shut down investment but not to redirect.  As you say there are lots of opportunities in our land, but not the political will to do it.  Ofcouse we take every opportunity to blame the tree huggers and world markets for every problem.
		
Click to expand...

i am fine with blaming the green agenda thanks. It is directly responsible for curtailing investments such as Cambo last year. Now the u turn on thinking due to rising prices may put some developments back on the agenda but they will have large lead times and not change anything in next couple of years or so. As mentioned, the headline grabbing green agenda policies were mis-thought - they should have gone hand-in-hand with the build up of green projects and more domestic oil and gas over the coming two decades that would help see us through towards carbon zero stategy. I agree on decades of mismanagemnt in the whole utility and energy space from a whole European perspective

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...mbo-could-mean-end-big-north-sea-oil-projects


----------



## Beezerk (Aug 9, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Pressures of his role, yea, yea, 🙄.
The point being made was the moral futility of someone doing very nicely, thank you, saying to someone desperate to make ends meet, through no fault of their own.
"!Don't rock my boat, there's a good chap"
		
Click to expand...

I get the point, I just thought it was a very poor one.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2022)

jim8flog said:



			Ditto to this.

Last week Hinkley B Nuclear Electricity generator was taken off line for good. To replace what they generated all the gas fired generators are going to have to turn up production which means they will have to buy more gas.

Hinkley C will not come on line until 2027, at the earliest.
		
Click to expand...

And the people who made such a mess of planning this disaster won't be the ones going without heating this winter, it will be the hard pressed poorer in society who had no part in it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Dont blame green agenda for stopping investments.   We have decades of mismanagement in this space.  We have been quick to stop investments in north sea.... But we did not make the equivalent investment into renewables.  Instead we chose to rely on our european partners to deliver cheap leccy & gas.  We have been building Hinkley point nuclear for ages and still cant do it.   So quick to shut down investment but not to redirect.  As you say there are lots of opportunities in our land, but not the political will to do it.  Ofcouse we take every opportunity to blame the tree huggers and world markets for every problem.
		
Click to expand...

When you say "We" I take it you don't mean "Us" who are the ones who don't get to make these decisions but just pay for the mess "They've" got us into.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm off down town to buy some new jumpers and slippers.
Not too many though as I've just read my pension next year will rise by 3.75%
		
Click to expand...

Surely that's this year.  Next year it should rise by inflation.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Bbbbbbbbut we took back control!!
		
Click to expand...

And if we didn't would it be cheaper 🙄


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2022)

And meanwhile…given the sound of silence in the halls of power…Nero fiddles while Rome burns.


----------



## RRidges (Aug 9, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Another obscene waste of money
		
Click to expand...

Essential for a low carbon energy and UK's energy security!


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2022)

https://leftfootforward.org/2022/07...-energy-price-cap-measure-to-the-end-of-2022/


----------



## bobmac (Aug 10, 2022)

RRidges said:



			Essential for a low carbon energy and UK's energy security!
		
Click to expand...

Still 5 years from opening and at a cost of £22-23bn
And the cost to the customer, £92 per MW hour and rising
Offshore wind is currently £40 per MW hour and falling.

Never mind we can always frack.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 10, 2022)




----------



## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Still 5 years from opening and at a cost of £22-23bn
And the cost to the customer, £92 per MW hour and rising
Offshore wind is currently £40 per MW hour and falling.

Never mind we can always frack.
		
Click to expand...

Both (actually, ALL) are the most desirable. Hinkley C life likely to be 60+ years, about 3 times that of wind turbines. 
Offshore Wind will become more expensive - as convenient locations become rarer. Likewise Solar, while convenient for many houses is not (yet) workable on an industrial scale in relatively tiny UK. Plenty of Solar farms in Missouri and Kansas though.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Still 5 years from opening and at a cost of £22-23bn
And the cost to the customer, £92 per MW hour and rising
Offshore wind is currently £40 per MW hour and falling.

Never mind we can always frack.
		
Click to expand...

2 types of electric supply. Base load - power stations, nuclear and could also include tidal if we had the balls to commit. And small nuclear ractirs will hopefully follow and a far better option than another large Plant. This type of powere can be switched on when needed. Then there is wind and solar, which can be used fully when working (when you preserve the base load), but when not, you need to revert to the base load reliable energy. Wind is good, nice and green, but hopelessly unreliable.


----------



## chico (Aug 10, 2022)

The UK has the infrastructure forsight of a blind man. This problem has been a long time in the making but funding for renewable energy was cut, not increased. 

Wind, tidal, solar and hydro with the proper investment could be suppling cheap energy by now. 

And the people who mention that the profits these companies make pay your pensions. That might well be the case but pension funds hold a relatively small share of the UK stock market. As usual all the hedge funds etc will push the narrative that any additional tax is going to cost people their pensions. 
One final point do any of these energy companies actually own their own means of production. Does one part if the company pump it out, sell it to themselves and say the wholesale price has sky rocketed but fortunately so have our profits.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2022)

bobmac said:









Click to expand...

Civil disobedience becomes effective if very large numbers engage in it.  If millions refuse to pay these projected bills then the legal system becomes impossible to operate.  A small number of people will be toothless.  The French are experts at it.


----------



## RRidges (Aug 10, 2022)

chico said:



			The UK has the infrastructure forsight of a blind man. This problem has been a long time in the making but funding for renewable energy was cut, not increased.

Wind, tidal, solar and hydro with the proper investment could be suppling cheap energy by now.

And the people who mention that the profits these companies make pay your pensions. That might well be the case but pension funds hold a relatively small share of the UK stock market. As usual all the hedge funds etc will push the narrative that any additional tax is going to cost people their pensions.
One final point do any of these energy companies actually own their own means of production. Does one part if the company pump it out, sell it to themselves and say the wholesale price has sky rocketed but fortunately so have our profits.
		
Click to expand...

Centrica is one that owns development and production companies through provision and subsequent servicing companies. How much intra-company trading goes on, I have no idea, but suspect it's still based on 'market prices'.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

chico said:



			The UK has the infrastructure forsight of a blind man. This problem has been a long time in the making but *funding for renewable energy was cut, not increased.*

Click to expand...

You'll have to help me out on that one

_''It’s anticipated that the UK’s renewable capacity will increase dramatically over the next decade. Plans are already in action to increase offshore wind’s output from 11 GW to 50 GW by 2030 – helped by a £200 million government cash injection and financial incentives. Meanwhile, solar capacity could grow five-fold from 14 GW to roughly 70 GW in the same period.'_'




			Wind, tidal, solar and hydro with the proper investment *could be suppling cheap energy by now*.
		
Click to expand...

It is
_''renewable energy sources making up 42.8% of the UK’s total electricity generation between October and December 2021.''_




PNWokingham said:



			Wind is good, nice and green, *but hopelessly unreliable*.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Have you ever been to the beach when it's not windy?

Agreed, we're always going to need more than just one source of energy to balance the grid but giving fossil fuel companies even more subsidies and tax breaks is in my opinion, not the answer.

And as for fracking, are you serious?

_''Fracking companies are likely to be eligible for tax breaks, potentially worth billions, that the government is extending to oil and gas companies to encourage new exploration of fossil fuel resources.''_


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You'll have to help me out on that one

_''It’s anticipated that the UK’s renewable capacity will increase dramatically over the next decade. Plans are already in action to increase offshore wind’s output from 11 GW to 50 GW by 2030 – helped by a £200 million government cash injection and financial incentives. Meanwhile, solar capacity could grow five-fold from 14 GW to roughly 70 GW in the same period.'_'



It is
_''renewable energy sources making up 42.8% of the UK’s total electricity generation between October and December 2021.''_




Really? Have you ever been to the beach when it's not windy?

Agreed, we're always going to need more than just one source of energy to balance the grid but giving fossil fuel companies even more subsidies and tax breaks is in my opinion, not the answer.

And as for fracking, are you serious?

_''Fracking companies are likely to be eligible for tax breaks, potentially worth billions, that the government is extending to oil and gas companies to encourage new exploration of fossil fuel resources.''_

Click to expand...

yes and yes

as mentioned, i am in favour of offshore wind. It is a great option when the wind is blowing but as you may know, no wind = no power, and that happens often. It is not base load and hence we need a base load security of power that can be turned on to cover 100% of UK needs - if needed - and used to make up the % of what is not being sipplied from renbewables at all times

And with regards to fracking, of course there are tax breaks, it is massive investment, you can write that off tax the same as any business and the government needs to incentivise investment in energy in order to reduce the mess we are in. Maybe ask the Americans if they are in favour of fracking, which has given them energy security and provided huge employment. If it goes ahead in the UK, it should need to pass the local vote to see if the community where it is based is in favour.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			It is a great option when the wind is blowing but as you may know, no wind = no power, and that happens often. 

It is not base load and hence we need a base load security of power that can be turned on to cover 100% of UK needs - if needed - and used to make up the % of what is not being sipplied from renbewables at all times
		
Click to expand...

How often are off shore wind turbines out of action through lack of wind? I've never seen any stationary but I haven't studied them.

Tidal power could be available all day, every day in the UK.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			yes and yes

as mentioned, i am in favour of offshore wind. It is a great option when the wind is blowing but as you may know, no wind = no power, *and that happens often*.
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree




			It is not base load and hence we need a base load security of power that can be turned on to cover 100% of UK needs - if needed - and used to make up the % of what is not being sipplied from renbewables at all times
		
Click to expand...

In case you missed it, here it is again....




			Agreed, we're always going to need more than just one source of energy to balance the grid
		
Click to expand...





			And with regards to fracking, of course there are tax breaks, it is massive investment, you can write that off tax the same as any business and the government needs to incentivise investment in energy in order to reduce the mess we are in. Maybe ask the Americans if they are in favour of fracking, which has given them energy security and provided huge employment. If it goes ahead in the UK, it should need to pass the local vote to see if the community where it is based is in favour.
		
Click to expand...

So if fracking is a way out of this mess we are in with the problems with Russia, Norway in a drought caused by climate change and our soaring energy costs,  your solution is to divert investment away from renewables and find and burn more fossil fuels which makes climate change worse.
And as most of the country is heading for hosepipe bans due to climate change, where are you going to get the millions of gallons of water used in fracking?


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You'll have to help me out on that one

_''It’s anticipated that the UK’s renewable capacity will increase dramatically over the next decade. Plans are already in action to increase offshore wind’s output from 11 GW to 50 GW by 2030 – helped by a £200 million government cash injection and financial incentives. Meanwhile, solar capacity could grow five-fold from 14 GW to roughly 70 GW in the same period.'_'



It is
_''renewable energy sources making up 42.8% of the UK’s total electricity generation between October and December 2021.''_




Really? Have you ever been to the beach when it's not windy?

Agreed, we're always going to need more than just one source of energy to balance the grid but giving fossil fuel companies even more subsidies and tax breaks is in my opinion, not the answer.

And as for fracking, are you serious?

_''Fracking companies are likely to be eligible for tax breaks, potentially worth billions, that the government is extending to oil and gas companies to encourage new exploration of fossil fuel resources.''_

Click to expand...

We need to get through the next thirty or so years before nuclear , wind, tidal resources are in place, until then we will have to get by with North Sea oil/gas and fracking.  I know it's not ideal but what else is there other than blackouts.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And as most of the country is heading for hosepipe bans due to climate change, where are you going to get the millions of gallons of water used in fracking?
		
Click to expand...

From the sea. Or is salt water of no use in fracking?


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

me thinks the days of large power infra is behind us, we will see more decenralisation coming thru.  It does not mean big projects are going away.  We need a grid that supports microgeneration via local solar and dare i say mini nuclear plants.  I believe there are projects to test mobile nuclear reactors which could be used to power smaller areas.   

personal solar or community based solar power with feed-in tarrifs will radically move power (no pun) from energy comapnies and into the hands of the people.  We can get self reliant on leccy very quickly.  Little wonder that the Govt went the distance and removed all incentives around personal solar.  Now it is uneconomical to retrofit it.  They could have put a mandate that all new houses will have solar.. but that is a step too far


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2022)

rulefan said:



			From the sea. Or is salt water of no use in fracking?
		
Click to expand...

We've had hot dry weather for a few weeks but as normal in this country were talking about national climate disasters.  Looks like it's going to get rainy next week and cool down, I wonder if the Jet stream may be returning to it's normal position.

I watched as program last week explaining how climate change heralded the end of the last Ice age.  Was that caused by people driving around in cars?


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			We need to get through the next thirty or so years before nuclear , wind, tidal resources are in place, until then we will have to get by with North Sea oil/gas and fracking.  I know it's not ideal but what else is there other than blackouts.
		
Click to expand...

If we are getting by with North Sea oil/gas and fracking, why are we heading towards a catastrophic energy crisis in the next 6 months. And I'd like to know where you get your 30 year time frame from.



rulefan said:



			From the sea. Or is salt water of no use in fracking?
		
Click to expand...

So you want to transport millions of gallons of sea water in diesel trucks presumably, to the fracking fields which nobody wants due to the increase in earthquakes caused by fracking, just to burn more fossil fuels and worsen the climate.
Brilliant.

In my humble opinion, we need to burn less fossil fuels, not more


----------



## rulefan (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If we are getting by with North Sea oil/gas and fracking, why are we heading towards a catastrophic energy crisis in the next 6 months. And I'd like to know where you get your 30 year time frame from.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a real shortage of oil and gas in the ground or under the sea at present?


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Is there a real shortage of oil and gas in the ground or under the sea at present?
		
Click to expand...

There must be a shortage of easily accessible oil and gas. Why else would people want to risk creating earthquakes?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2022)

And sure enough, and not before time for some, the usual suspects start attacking Martin Lewis.  It would be funny were it not all so serious.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I don't agree



In case you missed it, here it is again....






So if fracking is a way out of this mess we are in with the problems with Russia, Norway in a drought caused by climate change and our soaring energy costs,  your solution is to divert investment away from renewables and find and burn more fossil fuels which makes climate change worse.
And as most of the country is heading for hosepipe bans due to climate change, where are you going to get the millions of gallons of water used in fracking?
		
Click to expand...

Without repeating again and again. Wind is great but you can ot rely on it. You need to have 100% capacity on base load to supplement whatever is working at whatever time from wind, solar etc. How do you propose we manage base load? This is not a question on non base-load wind etc, which no matter what you say is UNRELIABLE. How do you suggest we achieve our 100% capacity in this area?


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			There must be a shortage of easily accessible oil and gas. Why else would people want to risk creating earthquakes?
		
Click to expand...

There is plenty of domestic oil and gas available but the green agenda has forced against this when in reality is should be part of the green solution over the next 30 years. Hopefully mini nuclear and tidal can come on stream through the 2030s to reduce the need for gas but until then...


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Without repeating again and again. Wind is great but you can ot rely on it. You need to have 100% capacity on base load to supplement whatever is working at whatever time from wind, solar etc. How do you propose we manage base load? This is not a question on non base-load wind etc, which no matter what you say is UNRELIABLE. How do you suggest we achieve our 100% capacity in this area?
		
Click to expand...

For the third and last time....




			we're always going to need more than just one source of energy to balance the grid
		
Click to expand...

That means I have agreed with you we need a mixture of renewables, nuclear AND fossil fuels to balance the grid, not to mention vehicle to grid.
But the 30 year timescales of change are miles out in my opinion.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

rulefan said:



			How often are off shore wind turbines out of action through lack of wind? I've never seen any stationary but I haven't studied them.

Tidal power could be available all day, every day in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I have not seen stats on wind and offshore is stronger and more reliable than onshore. But unlike tidal it is not totally predictable, and you need predictability. Tidal must be the best solution to increase reliable green energy and we should go gangsters into this today along with small nuclear, while also increasing offshore wind


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			For the third and last time....



That means I have agreed with you we need a mixture of renewables, nuclear AND fossil fuels to balance the grid, not to mention vehicle to grid.
But the 30 year timescales of change are miles out in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I am running out of energy! Nuclear we need - agreed. Get Rolls Royce consortium signed off and underway. Even if done now it will likely be 10 years before we start seeing anything working and our other nuclear plants will be closing during this period. Hence even more need for gas. There us still a 20+ year need for fossil fuels in the mix and the lack of them is the route cause of the current issue, along with the nuclear issues. So, back our local fossil options until they are not needed - greener for the UK, better for employment etc. If we had green base load up and running reliably with nuclear and tidal we can wind down carbon as and when these come on stream. But until then....  but we can never rely on wind and solar as....they cannot be relied on, even if offshore wind is quite good. Quite good is not base load reliable


----------



## bobmac (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			but we can never rely on wind and solar as....they cannot be relied on, even if offshore wind is quite good. Quite good is not base load reliable
		
Click to expand...

For goodness sake, I'm not arguing with you.
Nowhere have I said we can rely on wind and solar.
You think the changes will take 20-30 years, I think it will happen sooner
I'm not going to repeat myself again.
I'm done


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2022)

Discussing the future of power generation for the U.K is such a great diversion from the real and present issue and the subject of this thread.  Not too surprising though as the real issue is not one that will cause much if any pain for the vast majority on here - I suggest that none of us will be choosing between eating and heating.

So here’s a quick and easy answer to the question of targeting support - the question that those who can decide are struggling with…a £750 grant to every individual or family in receipt of Universal Credit…because by definition there is not one such person or family who will have the wherewithal to cover the increased cost of their power and gas.

Just as was done during the pandemic with the UC £80 a month uplift to all on UC, and a bit like the pretty broadbrush provision of grants to self-employed and SME business.

Sorted 👍


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			For goodness sake, I'm not arguing with you.
Nowhere have I said we can rely on wind and solar.
You think the changes will take 20-30 years, I think it will happen sooner
I'm not going to repeat myself again.
I'm done
		
Click to expand...

Last point then. We cannot get nuclear and tidal - if indeed we make the choice to do tidal as it is not even in the mis currently - for at least 10 years and that is the start, maybe another 10 before these can make up for what we are losing in current nuclear and to boost the base load enough for the carbon (hopefully mostly local) to wind down. So for the next 20 years, maybe not 30, the only game in town is carbon related. The choice is do we do it ourselves or risk being a buyer on global markets. The US made the bold move in fracking and I am sure lost people who live there are glad that they did so and can live with the negatives as the positives are far more significant. We are never going to frack to the degree they have but putting it in the mix if the local area approve should be on the agenda.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Discussing the future of power generation for the U.K is such a great diversion from the real and present issue and the subject of this thread.  Not too surprising though as the real issue is not one that will cause much if any pain for the vast majority on here - I suggest that none of us will be choosing between eating and heating.

So here’s a quick and easy answer to the question of targeting support - the question that those who can decide are struggling with…a £750 grant to every individual or family in receipt of Universal Credit…because by definition there is not one such person or family who will have the wherewithal to cover the increased cost of their power and gas.

Just as was done during the pandemic with the UC £80 a month uplift to all on UC, and a bit like the pretty broadbrush provision of grants to self-employed and SME business.

Sorted 👍
		
Click to expand...

I agree with a policy like this although with talk now if 5k price cap, it will likely nit be enough, although better than nothing. Also scrap the green levy and vat on bills


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am running out of energy! Nuclear we need - agreed. Get Rolls Royce consortium signed off and underway. Even if done now it will likely be 10 years before we start seeing anything working and our other nuclear plants will be closing during this period. Hence even more need for gas. There us still a 20+ year need for fossil fuels in the mix and the lack of them is the route cause of the current issue, along with the nuclear issues. So, back our local fossil options until they are not needed - greener for the UK, better for employment etc. If we had green base load up and running reliably with nuclear and tidal we can wind down carbon as and when these come on stream. But until then....  but we can never rely on wind and solar as....they cannot be relied on, even if offshore wind is quite good. Quite good is not base load reliable
		
Click to expand...

I hear windmills kill birds..  must be true, because Trump said it


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 11, 2022)

@bobmac



Very good picture that explains the rises and what could be done


----------



## greenone (Aug 11, 2022)

Bare in mind even if we stopped burning fossil fuels tomorrow there is still going to be an oil industry. Just about every product you buy that is mass produced has something in it that is  made from oil.


----------



## rulefan (Aug 11, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I hear windmills kill birds..  must be true, because Trump said it
		
Click to expand...

Must be true that fracking causes earthquakes because he didn't say it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I agree with a policy like this although with talk now if 5k price cap, it will likely nit be enough, although better than nothing. Also scrap the green levy and vat on bills
		
Click to expand...

It’s simple…maybe also add in those households on state pension where no income tax is paid as a result of other income.  It’s simple and targets those who will be hardest impacted. 

And yes…just heard an hour ago that we could be heading towards £5k price cap next year - and I voiced an expletive - and yet we also hear that nothing came out of a meeting earlier between those who can agree, decide and do to ameliorate the terrible pending state of affairs.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

rulefan said:



			Must be true that fracking causes earthquakes because he didn't say it.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s simple…maybe also add in those households on state pension where no income tax is paid as a result of other income.  It’s simple and targets those who will be hardest impacted.

And yes…just heard an hour ago that we could be heading towards £5k price cap next year - and I voiced an expletive - and yet we also hear that nothing came out of a meeting earlier between those who can agree, decide and do to ameliorate the terrible pending state of affairs.
		
Click to expand...

There are many people who don't draw benefits but are on very low incomes (Retirement pensions etc) who will also be hit extremely hard by these energy increases.   I prefer the idea of a low Tariff for households earning below a certain threshold (Say £25K) or maybe those on basic tax rates only.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There are many people who don't draw benefits but are on very low incomes (Retirement pensions etc) who will also be hit extremely hard by these energy increases.   I prefer the idea of a low Tariff for households earning below a certain threshold (Say £25K) or maybe those on basic tax rates only.
		
Click to expand...

just because i earn 25.1k and above a threshold, does not mean i can afford a 5k utility bill.  i already pay my tax and i need to have utilities the same way as the rest of the population.  for far too long, people think 100k earners in London are 'well off' and can afford everything.  The reality is 100k Londoner is about the same as a 40k Northern after you factor in all the costs of living in london. 

i pay high tax but we should have access to same kind of utilities. my leccy is the same wattage as yours, the gas burns at the same way.   I am sorry to disagree but the situation we are in, needs to fix the source (high bills) rather than fix at the receiving end.


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 11, 2022)

Mudball said:



			just because i earn 25.1k and above a threshold, does not mean i can afford a 5k utility bill.  i already pay my tax and i need to have utilities the same way as the rest of the population.  for far too long, people think 100k earners in London are 'well off' and can afford everything.  The reality is 100k Londoner is about the same as a 40k Northern after you factor in all the costs of living in london.

i pay high tax but we should have access to same kind of utilities. my leccy is the same wattage as yours, the gas burns at the same way.   I am sorry to disagree but the situation we are in, needs to fix the source (high bills) rather than fix at the receiving end.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like child benefit in a way where two parents can earn 49k each get full child benefit but if it's 60k for one and 20 for another they don't get a penny of assistance (not saying people should or should not just another example of poorly applied thresholds)

Without London Vs rest of country just add in anyone over the 40% tax threshold doesn't see as much of that "massive" wage when 40% is taken in tax plus 2% NI (plus whatever figure extra it is now 1.5 it was but then went down) that's a fair old chunk gone so if someone is earning 50k in an area with lower cost of living but someone is thrown 60k for same Job in higher cost of living area they will only see half of it and will prob be worse off.

This crisis is scary. So many people are going to suffer it's unreal.

I'm fortunate in my project that it paid off at right time to shield some of the rise and I can ride it out for now. However it is proper frightening how many people won't be able to.

What kind of country talks about "warmth banks" it sounds utterly ridiculous that it could actually come to that


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Discussing the future of power generation for the U.K is such a great diversion from the real and present issue and the subject of this thread.  Not too surprising though as the real issue is not one that will cause much if any pain for the vast majority on here - I suggest that none of us will be choosing between eating and heating.

So here’s a quick and easy answer to the question of targeting support - the question that those who can decide are struggling with…a £750 grant to every individual or family in receipt of Universal Credit…because by definition there is not one such person or family who will have the wherewithal to cover the increased cost of their power and gas.

Just as was done during the pandemic with the UC £80 a month uplift to all on UC, and a bit like the pretty broadbrush provision of grants to self-employed and SME business.

Sorted 👍
		
Click to expand...

Would rather these grants go straight to the individuals provider than to the individual .


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 11, 2022)

The comments show how complicated and hard it is to make a package to ease the pain of the upcoming bills. Whatever is done many will feel hard done by. My company just announces a one of 2k payment to help all under a certain pay level. I was just above. Same will likely happen to whatever is implemented on energy.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Would rather these grants go straight to the individuals provider than to the individual .
		
Click to expand...

I would say yes.. but in a different way..  a 5k utility bill is immoral when oil has fallen. I know everyone has a future hedge but we are in crisis mode. If you are not on UC, a 5k will bring you into UC. 

Instead.. bring the energy price cap back. Anything above for the next 12 months will be funded by all tax payers. This is like quasi nationalisation. When the markets stabilise, raise the cap 10% (or in line with inflation) to pay the debt. Have a windfall tax to fill the debt. I am a shareholder both directly and via pension, but I can take a dividend hit. The companies won’t struggle since they are being paid. 

When the Big B event happened we were told that we will be able to do such things and control our bills.  Yet while France, Spain and others have done it, we are still ‘holding emergency talks with energy company bosses’ ..


----------



## RRidges (Aug 11, 2022)

Mudball said:








Click to expand...

That tweet is typical Trump garbage!
There is absolutely no evidence of noise from Turbines causing cancer! However there are a significant number of birds killed by the blades.
Coal is a seriously toxic energy source, both to produce and to use. And that's without considering the effect on the environment of the CO2 that burning it produces!
Unfortunately, vested interests here in US either lobby, bribe or simply lie about the effects in order to protect their industry. It would be much better if they found a way to migrate to zero-emission power production at the same sites as their polluting ones. Or at least nearby, so that the workforce isn't just abandoned, but that's not the way big business works here!
Back home in Aus, Coal is being replaced with renewables faster than expected, though it's still a major part of power production.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2022)

Mudball said:



			just because i earn 25.1k and above a threshold, does not mean i can afford a 5k utility bill.  i already pay my tax and i need to have utilities the same way as the rest of the population.  for far too long, people think 100k earners in London are 'well off' and can afford everything.  The reality is 100k Londoner is about the same as a 40k Northern after you factor in all the costs of living in london.

i pay high tax but we should have access to same kind of utilities. my leccy is the same wattage as yours, the gas burns at the same way.   I am sorry to disagree but the situation we are in, needs to fix the source (high bills) rather than fix at the receiving end.
		
Click to expand...

There has to be a cut off point when dealing with subsidies and benefits.  Some people will be just over the threshold but that's the way the cookie crumbles and always will.
Those of us who are fortunate enough to bear the strain should do so while helping the less fortunate in our society, you never know where your fortune will take you and it may be you who would be grateful of some help in the future.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			There has to be a cut off point when dealing with subsidies and benefits.  Some people will be just over the threshold but that's the way the cookie crumbles and always will.
Those of us who are fortunate enough to bear the strain should do so while helping the less fortunate in our society, you never know where your fortune will take you and it may be you who would be grateful of some help in the future.
		
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood what I said.. at the moment, all of us are ‘unfortunate’.  This is like the financial crisis of 2008.  At that point, we bailed out the banks. This helped all of us not just the bank accounts of those below a threshold. The energy security of the nation is in shambles.  This has been due to decades of mismanagement. Now the bill has come, and we need those in power to wake up. This is their doing, and they better fix it. 
Those paying over 40% without any personal allowance, child care still have to pay their bills and not everyone is swimming around with cash. 
The fifth largest economy is looking at food banks and requires pensioners to use their bus pass to go around and find warmth.
We seem to be charging down the path of levelling down at the moment.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I think you misunderstood what I said.. at the moment, all of us are ‘unfortunate’.  This is like the financial crisis of 2008.  At that point, we bailed out the banks. This helped all of us not just the bank accounts of those below a threshold. The energy security of the nation is in shambles.  This has been due to decades of mismanagement. Now the bill has come, and we need those in power to wake up. This is their doing, and they better fix it.
Those paying over 40% without any personal allowance, child care still have to pay their bills and not everyone is swimming around with cash.
The fifth largest economy is looking at food banks and requires pensioners to use their bus pass to go around and find warmth.
We seem to be charging down the path of levelling down at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with what you've said here.  The ideal situation is that the cap is set at around inflation above previous levels but I'm not sure if that could be achieved other than with massive borrowing from Government.    I'm all for a further windfall tax on the likes of Centricita and BP but is it enough?   Yes, the energy planning has been poor, yes, we should have been better prepared for this and need to seriously take stock of what we can realistically do over the medium to long term.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 11, 2022)

Just when we are discussing renewable to meet the energy needsx one of the candidates on the  Apprentice thinks ‘"I think one of the most depressing sights when you're driving through England is seeing fields that should be full of crops or livestock, full of solar panels’ … so she wants less solar ? Or maybe we will have a u-turn to the energy policy by morning ..


----------



## RRidges (Aug 12, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Just when we are discussing renewable to meet the energy needsx one of the candidates on the  Apprentice thinks ‘"I think one of the most depressing sights when you're driving through England is seeing fields that should be full of crops or livestock, full of solar panels’ … so she wants less solar ? Or maybe we will have a u-turn to the energy policy by morning ..
		
Click to expand...

There IS an argument for optimising use of land, so using land less suitable for crops or livestock for power generation as opposed to simply the most convenient. Or even, perhaps, mixed use if do-able - e/g Wind.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 12, 2022)

RRidges said:



			There IS an argument for optimising use of land, so using land less suitable for crops or livestock for power generation as opposed to simply the most convenient. Or even, perhaps, mixed use if do-able - e/g Wind.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.. unlike the US, Aus, India or China, we have very limited land. We have to find a way to optimise it between green, agri and renewables. Hence my view that solar needs to get decentralised and moved into residential spaces. Micro generation is the way forward.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 12, 2022)

Can we keep the comments non political please , even by reference
@Mudball please note 👍


----------



## Mudball (Aug 12, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we keep the comments non political please , even by reference
@Mudball please note 👍
		
Click to expand...

Apologies… but it is not aimed at a political party.. it is talking about govt policy, lack of investment and the last one about what one of the candidates is thinking on this matter. I agree it is a thin line…


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 12, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Apologies… but it is not aimed at a political party.. it is talking about govt policy, lack of investment and the last one about what one of the candidates is thinking on this matter. I agree it is a thin line…
		
Click to expand...

Getting thinner, 
By definition, criticism over government policy is political as one party has been in charge for some years now
And mentioning the forthcoming leadership election is so obviously political that I shouldn’t need to highlight it


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 12, 2022)

We are with British gas and they have e mailed me with a delightful quote for their new fixed tariff. Jesus h Christ if bills hit that much I'm not going to be able to pay. How much? £3.5k. Per year. I kid you not. We were paying £70 a month.


----------



## SaintHacker (Aug 12, 2022)

I saw this advice online yesterday. Sounds like a good plan if it is true

DO NOT refuse to pay your energy bill in October. Below is how you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt/damaging your credit rating: 

1. Cancel your DD & pay for what you use each month.

2. You then need to write a letter of complaint to your energy supplier. Once that complaint had been raised, your energy supplier can't take any debt collection work on your account, so they can't pass your details to the credit reference agencies etc. That bill gets put on hold whilst they try to resolve your complaint. 

The energy company might offer you a small reduction - DON'T accept it. Keep the complaint open & hold strong. 

3. Eventually, they will send you a letter of 'Deadlock'. A letter of Deadlock is a letter that is sent to you from your energy company saying they gone as far as they can with your complaint & can't go any further, so your only option now is to take it up with the energy Ombudsman. 

For every complaint the Ombudsman receives, they charge your energy supplier £500 for every claim they have to investigate.

4. The energy companies also have limitations on how many complaints they're allowed open as well as a turnaround time of how fast they have to respond to a complaint & get a complaint closed. If they don't respond to them fast enough & don't resolve the complaints or they have too many complaints open, the energy firm will also get hit with a fine from the Ombudsman.

This is how your hurt an energy company. This will also put them in breach of their licensing conditions 
 & put their ability to trade at risk.

So if you want to fight these extortionate price hikes
1. Raise complaints
2. Do NOT close them
3. Take them to the Ombudsman

You can also submit a “subject access request” at the same time as the above. This means the energy company has a legal obligation to provide you with every piece of information they have on you; including telephone conversation transcripts, past bills, everything! This is time consuming for them to collect and is a huge hassle for them however they legally have only one month to comply.

Edit: the accompanying graphic contains a quote from Martin Lewis. This was taken from an article by Tyla. The written content of this post was taken from a commentator on the Tyla article. I thought others would find it useful so I made this post public.


----------



## Neilds (Aug 12, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			I saw this advice online yesterday. Sounds like a good plan if it is true

DO NOT refuse to pay your energy bill in October. Below is how you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt/damaging your credit rating:

1. Cancel your DD & pay for what you use each month.

2. You then need to write a letter of complaint to your energy supplier. Once that complaint had been raised, your energy supplier can't take any debt collection work on your account, so they can't pass your details to the credit reference agencies etc. That bill gets put on hold whilst they try to resolve your complaint.

The energy company might offer you a small reduction - DON'T accept it. Keep the complaint open & hold strong.

3. Eventually, they will send you a letter of 'Deadlock'. A letter of Deadlock is a letter that is sent to you from your energy company saying they gone as far as they can with your complaint & can't go any further, so your only option now is to take it up with the energy Ombudsman.

For every complaint the Ombudsman receives, they charge your energy supplier £500 for every claim they have to investigate.

4. The energy companies also have limitations on how many complaints they're allowed open as well as a turnaround time of how fast they have to respond to a complaint & get a complaint closed. If they don't respond to them fast enough & don't resolve the complaints or they have too many complaints open, the energy firm will also get hit with a fine from the Ombudsman.

This is how your hurt an energy company. This will also put them in breach of their licensing conditions
& put their ability to trade at risk.

So if you want to fight these extortionate price hikes
1. Raise complaints
2. Do NOT close them
3. Take them to the Ombudsman

You can also submit a “subject access request” at the same time as the above. This means the energy company has a legal obligation to provide you with every piece of information they have on you; including telephone conversation transcripts, past bills, everything! This is time consuming for them to collect and is a huge hassle for them however they legally have only one month to comply.

Edit: the accompanying graphic contains a quote from Martin Lewis. This was taken from an article by Tyla. The written content of this post was taken from a commentator on the Tyla article. I thought others would find it useful so I made this post public.
		
Click to expand...

Only snag I can see is that by paying for what you actually use, at the current prices this is still a massive amount and will also increase as winter comes in.  How do you actually save money this way?  One  of the reasons of paying by DD is to balance out the payments throughout the year and avoid spikes come wintertime.  The way this advice is written just adds a spike which will be unaffordable to many.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 12, 2022)

Just listening to my new favourite guy - Mick Lynch - on political Joe.. I cant post a link but its on youtube called Down the pub with Mick Lynch...  There is clarity of thought on how to fix some of the broken systems.  Its not perfect, but atleast someone is providing a solution.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Just listening to my new favourite guy - Mick Lynch - on political Joe.. I cant post a link but its on youtube called Down the pub with Mick Lynch...  There is clarity of thought on how to fix some of the broken systems.  Its not perfect, but atleast someone is providing a solution.
		
Click to expand...

I saw that pop up on my YouTube feed and will watch it at some point.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			I saw this advice online yesterday. Sounds like a good plan if it is true

DO NOT refuse to pay your energy bill in October. Below is how you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt/damaging your credit rating:

1. Cancel your DD & pay for what you use each month.

2. You then need to write a letter of complaint to your energy supplier. Once that complaint had been raised, your energy supplier can't take any debt collection work on your account, so they can't pass your details to the credit reference agencies etc. That bill gets put on hold whilst they try to resolve your complaint.

The energy company might offer you a small reduction - DON'T accept it. Keep the complaint open & hold strong.

3. Eventually, they will send you a letter of 'Deadlock'. A letter of Deadlock is a letter that is sent to you from your energy company saying they gone as far as they can with your complaint & can't go any further, so your only option now is to take it up with the energy Ombudsman.

For every complaint the Ombudsman receives, they charge your energy supplier £500 for every claim they have to investigate.

4. The energy companies also have limitations on how many complaints they're allowed open as well as a turnaround time of how fast they have to respond to a complaint & get a complaint closed. If they don't respond to them fast enough & don't resolve the complaints or they have too many complaints open, the energy firm will also get hit with a fine from the Ombudsman.

This is how your hurt an energy company. This will also put them in breach of their licensing conditions
& put their ability to trade at risk.

So if you want to fight these extortionate price hikes
1. Raise complaints
2. Do NOT close them
3. Take them to the Ombudsman

You can also submit a “subject access request” at the same time as the above. This means the energy company has a legal obligation to provide you with every piece of information they have on you; including telephone conversation transcripts, past bills, everything! This is time consuming for them to collect and is a huge hassle for them however they legally have only one month to comply.

Edit: the accompanying graphic contains a quote from Martin Lewis. This was taken from an article by Tyla. The written content of this post was taken from a commentator on the Tyla article. I thought others would find it useful so I made this post public.
		
Click to expand...

Last year I complained to the Ombudsman regarding a dispute I had with BG.  To cut a long story short the Ombudsman found in my favour and BG refunded me four years of electricity payments plus a compensation payment to settle the issue.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 23, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I would say yes.. but in a different way..  a 5k utility bill is immoral when oil has fallen. I know everyone has a future hedge but we are in crisis mode. If you are not on UC, a 5k will bring you into UC.

Instead.. bring the energy price cap back. Anything above for the next 12 months will be funded by all tax payers. This is like quasi nationalisation. When the markets stabilise, raise the cap 10% (or in line with inflation) to pay the debt. Have a windfall tax to fill the debt. I am a shareholder both directly and via pension, but I can take a dividend hit. The companies won’t struggle since they are being paid.

When the Big B event happened we were told that we will be able to do such things and control our bills.  Yet while France, Spain and others have done it, we are still ‘holding emergency talks with energy company bosses’ ..
		
Click to expand...

Listening to the EDF boss, I see he concurs with my logic… freeze the bill rather than targeted support to UC and pensioners.  Literally 80% of the country won’t be able to afford 5K bills. Just sad that our leaders don’t think that way even when the companies are now saying it


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 24, 2022)

Chatting with other guys around the bar, I am suprised at how many people aren’t/weren’t on fixed term contracts.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 24, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			We are with British gas and they have e mailed me with a delightful quote for their new fixed tariff. Jesus h Christ if bills hit that much I'm not going to be able to pay. How much? £3.5k. Per year. I kid you not. We were paying £70 a month.
		
Click to expand...

You might find that’s a good deal this time next year.


----------



## SaintHacker (Aug 24, 2022)

Even the CEO of EDF has now come out and said something needs to be done. His suggestion is that bills are frozen at their current rate, and suppliers are then allowed to borrow from wherever to cover the shortfall, with a view to covering the costs of this over the next ten years when prices will hopefully fall. So we will pay for it, just over a longer time but with a flatter price curve. Seems like a sensible solution so long as we don't get hit with almighty interest on the loans. Maybe he's getting genuinely twitchy about people just not paying their bills?


----------



## fundy (Aug 24, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Even the CEO of EDF has now come out and said something needs to be done. His suggestion is that bills are frozen at their current rate, and suppliers are then allowed to borrow from wherever to cover the shortfall, with a view to covering the costs of this over the next ten years when prices will hopefully fall. So we will pay for it, just over a longer time but with a flatter price curve. Seems like a sensible solution so long as we don't get hit with almighty interest on the loans. Maybe he's getting genuinely twitchy about people just not paying their bills?
		
Click to expand...


Some of the energy companies were telling the govt this as far back as April! Starmers recent proposal is basically an extension of what I think it was Scottish Power initially proposed months back and several companies have come out in support of


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 24, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Listening to the EDF boss, I see he concurs with my logic… freeze the bill rather than targeted support to UC and pensioners.  Literally 80% of the country won’t be able to afford 5K bills. Just sad that our leaders don’t think that way even when the companies are now saying it
		
Click to expand...

It's not just the EDF boss 

Octupus, British gas and Scottish power have aired the same plans, just depends which news outlet reports it 

Sounds like all the big players are together with this plan (which tbh sounds a sensible solution)

The octupus and British gas one I read was backed by a loan that was paid back either by general taxation or a levy on bills over 1-2 decades 

Tbh .. this is the kind of situation where you need these plans to be listened to!


----------



## bobmac (Aug 24, 2022)

At least we're all in it together.....






Listen to this bar steward squirm


----------



## adam6177 (Aug 24, 2022)

I'm with octopus after my energy company went bust last year..... I will be cancelling my DD and then paying quarterly for what we use as there is no DD discount with them anyway.

It may do something.... It may not, but I see the logic behind reducing their income from monthly to quarterly in a bit to hurt their cash flow a bit.


----------



## Reemul (Aug 24, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I'm with octopus after my energy company went bust last year..... I will be cancelling my DD and then paying quarterly for what we use as there is no DD discount with them anyway.

It may do something.... It may not, but I see the logic behind reducing their income from monthly to quarterly in a bit to hurt their cash flow a bit.
		
Click to expand...

Yep i can see hurting their cash flow at a difficult time will benefit people. Just like those companies that have already gone busts custoiemrs have managed to get decent cheaper deals elsewhere and not at a massive increase.

We need government intervention and we need to  not lose any more suppliers especially a big one


----------



## Mudball (Aug 24, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Even the CEO of EDF has now come out and said something needs to be done. His suggestion is that bills are frozen at their current rate, and suppliers are then allowed to borrow from wherever to cover the shortfall, with a view to covering the costs of this over the next ten years when prices will hopefully fall. So we will pay for it, just over a longer time but with a flatter price curve. Seems like a sensible solution so long as we don't get hit with almighty interest on the loans. Maybe he's getting genuinely twitchy about people just not paying their bills?
		
Click to expand...

I suggested a similar approach a few posts back. Despite ‘high paying London job’ I can’t see regular middle class being able to handle this free market economic. Johnson has now branded this as the price to pay to protect Ukraine (pure politician posturing). 

From an energy Co stand point, the higher the price at the consumer end, the higher the likelihood  defaults. So it is in their interest that prices are affordable. From a supply side pov, they need some form of cap at which they can buy/hedge. The float between the supply cost and consumer cost is something they need the govt to support. To some extend in Europe prices are regulated and therefore the consumer end economics is already fixed. 

The unfortunate bit is that Starmer is supporting/proposing a similar approach, so this will soon be branded a ‘lefty approach’ and will get shot down, despite it being the only sensible approach on the table.


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 24, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I'm with octopus after my energy company went bust last year..... I will be cancelling my DD and then paying quarterly for what we use as there is no DD discount with them anyway.

It may do something.... It may not, but I see the logic behind reducing their income from monthly to quarterly in a bit to hurt their cash flow a bit.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair octupus are (imo) the best out there and their philosophy is much less screw the little guy over. 

I mean they always try to charge only 5% more than they pay for energy and with price caps were always the ones that came in £50 under the cap rather than taking the max.

Hurting the wrong company there.. we need more like them


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2022)

Additional average yearly power costs equating to the price of a top quality golf club membership fee from Oct.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 26, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Additional average yearly power costs equating to the price of a top quality golf club membership fee from Oct.
		
Click to expand...

Not everyone wants to be forced to be a member…


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Not everyone wants to be forced to be a member…
		
Click to expand...

I  would imagine a few members might be forced to not become a member though.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 26, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I  would imagine a few members might be forced to not become a member though.
		
Click to expand...

They will have to wear knee high socks and extra jumper though..  the committee member says help is coming..


----------



## D-S (Aug 26, 2022)

Mudball said:



			They will have to wear knee high socks and extra jumper though..  the committee member says help is coming..
		
Click to expand...

At last a logic as to why knee high socks are a thing.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2022)

Mudball said:



			They will have to wear knee high socks and extra jumper though..  the committee member says help is coming..
		
Click to expand...

.........will he sort it all out when he gets back from holiday in October


----------



## bobmac (Aug 26, 2022)

80% increase on your gas and electricity bill on October 1 on top of the 54% increase last April.
The predicted increase on Jan 1 2023 is a further 51% on top of the 80%


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			80% increase on your gas and electricity bill on October 1 on top of the 54% increase last April.
The predicted increase on Jan 1 2023 is a further 51% on top of the 80%  

Click to expand...

It’s getting to the point where these prices gap increases are meaningless to large numbers within the population. It won’t be a case of choosing not to pay, it’ll simply be that they can’t.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It’s getting to the point where these prices gap increases are meaningless to large numbers within the population. It won’t be a case of choosing not to pay, it’ll simply be that they can’t.
		
Click to expand...

…though some folks out there seem to think that the state should not be stepping in, that folks should sort themselves out; if they can’t earn more then cut back other spending and cut back on power usage…wear warm clothes indoors etc.  Easy 🙄.

But seriously.  We have known that this £3000+/yr day was coming since March when Martyn Lewis was telling what was almost 100% most likely to come to pass.  It’s a shock just what it is, but surprised it’s over £3000…shouldn’t really be.


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…though some folks out there seem to think that the state should not be stepping in, that folks should sort themselves out; if they can’t earn more then cut back other spending and cut back on power usage…wear warm clothes indoors etc.  Easy 🙄.

But seriously.  We have known that this £3000+/yr day was coming since March when Martyn Lewis was telling what was almost 100% most likely to come to pass.  It’s a shock just what it is, but surprised it’s over £3000…shouldn’t really be.
		
Click to expand...

I think all of the big 6 players have been talking about a similar idea they are lobbying to ministers to help households during this 

Freeze the price cap at current rate (£1900 which is already high) for 2 years. Backed by gov loan in the billions 

Then that will be repaid either via taxation or a levy on bills for a decade or so 

Tbh it seems a good idea


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I think all of the big 6 players have been talking about a similar idea they are lobbying to ministers to help households during this

Freeze the price cap at current rate (£1900 which is already high) for 2 years. Backed by gov loan in the billions

Then that will be repaid either via taxation or a levy on bills for a decade or so

Tbh it seems a good idea
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t that just kicking the can down the road? 

It doesn’t seem right to pile even more tax burden on a future generation to pay for a problem today. Especially given they will be paying the cost of Covid for a very long time.


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Isn’t that just kicking the can down the road? 

It doesn’t seem right to pile even more tax burden on a future generation to pay for a problem today. Especially given they will be paying the cost of Covid for a very long time.
		
Click to expand...

It may be kicking the can down the road but like covid without assistance millions will lose everything 

With this energy crisis it's not just people's houses and jobs they could lose, they could seriously affect their health or worse.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Isn’t that just kicking the can down the road?

It doesn’t seem right to pile even more tax burden on a future generation to pay for a problem today. Especially given they will be paying the cost of Covid for a very long time.
		
Click to expand...

If you don’t kick it down, there won’t be any can left to kick. This is years of failed policy and lack of investment coming home to roost. 

Alternatively, like Covid, we do lockdowns and people can assemble in heatbanks & foodbanks or in heated stables. This will bring out the spirit of the war. As one of the MPs tweeted .. _Those of us brought up before central heating wore extra jumpers when winter came_

Covid was a cataclysmic event, our energy policy is market driven event. Yes we will have more taxes, equally we will need growth - unleash Britain. Dare I say fix our borders. Extraordinary situations require extraordinary solutions.


----------



## Fade and Die (Aug 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			If you don’t kick it down, there won’t be any can left to kick. This is years of failed policy and lack of investment coming home to roost.

Alternatively, like Covid, we do lockdowns and people can assemble in heatbanks & foodbanks or in heated stables. This will bring out the spirit of the war. As one of the MPs tweeted .. _Those of us brought up before central heating wore extra jumpers when winter came_

Covid was a cataclysmic event, our energy policy is market driven event. Yes we will have more taxes, equally we will need growth - unleash Britain. Dare I say fix our borders. E*xtraordinary situations require extraordinary solutions*.
		
Click to expand...


Exactly right, get Fracking, ramp up our nuclear power production and until they are online open up the coal mines. Lets be truly energy independent. Nuts to the Green lobby. (the Fracking scares were just Russian disinformation anyway to keep us hooked on their gas)

Re the Coal, we probably lack the expertise to do this now as that generation has gone, but we can do what we always do, pay foreign nationals. I think Poland are the experts now. Lets tap them up.


----------



## Neilds (Aug 27, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I'm with octopus after my energy company went bust last year..... I will be cancelling my DD and then paying quarterly for what we use as there is no DD discount with them anyway.

It may do something.... It may not, but I see the logic behind reducing their income from monthly to quarterly in a bit to hurt their cash flow a bit.
		
Click to expand...

Is this the best way to go? Paying by DD smooths out the expensive winter months, by paying quarterly will mean higher bills in the winter, making it harder to budget. Make sure you do your sums properly before making any decisions


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			If you don’t kick it down, there won’t be any can left to kick. This is years of failed policy and lack of investment coming home to roost.

Alternatively, like Covid, we do lockdowns and people can assemble in heatbanks & foodbanks or in heated stables. This will bring out the spirit of the war. As one of the MPs tweeted .. _Those of us brought up before central heating wore extra jumpers when winter came_

Covid was a cataclysmic event, our energy policy is market driven event. Yes we will have more taxes, equally we will need growth - unleash Britain. Dare I say fix our borders. Extraordinary situations require extraordinary solutions.
		
Click to expand...

We aren’t getting extraordinary solutions though are we? There has been no solution other than more debt. Which is possibly an acceptable solution if you are getting on a bit. But it will screw everyone else up. 

If tax hikes are to be used to pay for this mess then it should include taxes on pensions. 

What we are getting is a chance for us all to get a taste of how great life in the 70s was. 

Secure our borders unleash Britain? What does that even mean? Weren’t we supposed to become a global superpower after you know what? How’s that working out?

Becoming more isolated because some people don’t like Johnny Foreigner isn’t going to help.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Exactly right, get Fracking, ramp up our nuclear power production and until they are online open up the coal mines. Lets be truly energy independent. Nuts to the Green lobby. (the Fracking scares were just Russian disinformation anyway to keep us hooked on their gas)

Re the Coal, we probably lack the expertise to do this now as that generation has gone, but we can do what we always do, pay foreign nationals. I think Poland are the experts now. Lets tap them up.
		
Click to expand...

So let me get this right, in these days of soaring energy costs, you want to use coal, fracking and nuclear which is very expensive and ditch clean energy which is the cheapest way of creating electricity and will only get cheaper?
This also might interest you........
https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2...-the-worst-climate-change-is-top-of-the-list/


----------



## Marshy77 (Aug 27, 2022)

Quick question - do you need a smart meter to go down this don't pay route? Keep looking at this and can't seem to find an answer or get various answers via social media..

Also, will it affect your credit score? Think someone asked earlier about paying your current amount. Cancel DD, make a payment each month, put the money aside to pay when you will have to or completely stop payments altogether until a resolution is come to?


----------



## Fade and Die (Aug 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So let me get this right, in these days of soaring energy costs, you want to use coal, fracking and nuclear which is very expensive and ditch clean energy which is the cheapest way of creating electricity and will only get cheaper?
This also might interest you........
https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2...-the-worst-climate-change-is-top-of-the-list/

Click to expand...

As I said Bob, proven Russian disinformation. 

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/december-2019/the-plot-against-fracking/

https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...ing-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking

What we need is reliable energy. None of the renewables provide this. I’m not saying there is not a place for them but the bulk of our requirements should not come from imports.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			As I said Bob, proven Russian disinformation.

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/december-2019/the-plot-against-fracking/

https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...ing-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking

What we need is reliable energy. None of the renewables provide this. I’m not saying there is not a place for them but the bulk of our requirements should not come from imports.
		
Click to expand...

We need all forms of it as part of an integrated energy strategy. Also key would be to add citizen generated energy via solar into the mix. Gone are the days of big plants, make it distributed. But for that they need to help with green subsidies. - which as we know have now been withdrawn


----------



## Fade and Die (Aug 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			We need all forms of it as part of an integrated energy strategy. Also key would be to add citizen generated energy via solar into the mix. Gone are the days of big plants, make it distributed. But for that they need to help with green subsidies. - which as we know have now been withdrawn
		
Click to expand...

No need to burden the Tax payer with any “Green” subsidies just make the suppliers pay a fairer feed in tariff. A lot closer to the tariff they sell the energy for.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 27, 2022)

I think we should stop doing what we've been doing for centuries which got us where we are today.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			No need to burden the Tax payer with any “Green” subsidies just make the suppliers pay a fairer feed in tariff. A lot closer to the tariff they sell the energy for.
		
Click to expand...

It does not have to be tax payer susbidfy.  Say the govt wants to generator 1GW of power.
1) This requires 10b in investment. You can use some of it to power 10k homes that generate 4kw each at a fraction of the cost by providing ‘subsidy’ to put panels on.

2) this reduces consumption in these 10k houses (thus reducing the impact on generation)

3) use decent FIT to put any excess capacity onto the grid. It will still put load on grid

4) invest in storage technology so we can use on dead days.

Reducing the need from 10k houses means we don’t need 1GW of power centrally. So it burns less gas/coal/biomass  there. I used 10k houses, you can scale it to anythign

We simply don’t have the land mass of a  China, India, Australia or the US to put panels on greenfield sites, we have to put them on houses and buildings. As we get more EVs in, even those who claim we don’t need green levy because they don’t want a PV on their Victorian houses will have to do a rethink.

Our energy strategy is pants and we need to get our head out of the sand and rethink. There is plenty of green bashing going around. Now we have some leaders saying we need to put jumpers on because Russia is doing evil things. This is just gaslighting (excuse the pun)


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			It does not have to be tax payer susbidfy.  Say the govt wants to generator 1GW of power.
1) This requires 10b in investment. You can use some of it to power 10k homes that generate 4kw each at a fraction of the cost by providing ‘subsidy’ to put panels on.

2) this reduces consumption in these 10k houses (thus reducing the impact on generation)

3) use decent FIT to put any excess capacity onto the grid. It will still put load on grid

4) invest in storage technology so we can use on dead days.

Reducing the need from 10k houses means we don’t need 1GW of power centrally. So it burns less gas/coal/biomass  there. I used 10k houses, you can scale it to anythign

We simply don’t have the land mass of a  China, India, Australia or the US to put panels on greenfield sites, we have to put them on houses and buildings. As we get more EVs in, even those who claim we don’t need green levy because they don’t want a PV on their Victorian houses will have to do a rethink.

Our energy strategy is pants and we need to get our head out of the sand and rethink. There is plenty of green bashing going around. Now we have some leaders saying we need to put jumpers on because Russia is doing evil things. This is just gaslighting (excuse the pun)
		
Click to expand...

Solar tiles whilst costly look amazing. Can bearly see them 

New panels come in all black and look more sleek than the ones with white boarders, might encourage people who judge looks 

I been after panels for 7 years before Mrs agreed , decent feed in would help , ATM it's 4p! Should be what u buy it for considering my excess basically goes down the shared cable and to my neighbour.. so the power company save on the energy they don't produce but sell to my neighbour for 28p for example

They work well tho, battery not arrived yet so saving is less, but since may 9th (still fixed at 14p) I've saved £200 off my bills

If you put the figure at 48p the saving jumps to £500 

Battery even more as don't send it back for 4p just use it during night


----------



## Mudball (Aug 27, 2022)

Off topic .. but we should see more smaller and modular nuclear plants being deployed. 

I thought I read that U.K. was sending modular power plants to Ukraine, but can’t find that news anymore. 

There is plenty of private investment going into this space this year. https://news.crunchbase.com/clean-tech-and-energy/startups-nuclear-fusion-fission/


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 27, 2022)

It goes without saying my career was coal mining. That said I honestly believe  the pits/coal mines should of Been closed. But here is a massive but. They should of been closed when there was alternative forms of energy available to replace what coal was producing. And by that I do not mean relying on Russia, France or anywhere else in the world. It goes without saying and without argument that coal is dirty. However the CO emitted could of had carbon capture. Our powers that be did not want to go down the route of making coal burning cleaner until WE could provide an alternative. In fact our powers that be would sooner import dirty coal from subsidised countries because it was cheaper then our own coal. Talking of CO produced how much was produced to import that from around the world. From our countries point of view, that didn’t matter because the numbers went to the country that transported it. So that’s ok Then. 😡
So we are now where we are because of decisions made within the last decade. The last coal mine shut in 2016. Because the decision was made not to subsidise Coal with taxpayers money we are now reliant on imported energy, or should I say lack of imported energy. Bottom line once more poor decision making has lead to a winter of discontent. For a country that is sat on coal, gas and oil, coupled with wind, solar etc etc. it is nothing short of scandalous.

On another note, Missis T has just been out front and not one house has any lights on. Me finks folk are already cutting back on electricity usage.


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Isn’t that just kicking the can down the road?

It doesn’t seem right to pile even more tax burden on a future generation to pay for a problem today. Especially given they will be paying the cost of Covid for a very long time.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming (hopefully) that Covid is a once in a generation type event and that the government have made the decision to take us into a war then surely the repayments should be treated like those of previous wars etc. It shouldn’t be looked as something that needs paying off within the next 10 years, it should be spread across the next 75/100 years. You do this and the tax burden is barely noticeable. 

I vaguely remember reading that we didn’t finish paying off WW2 until 2008 or something and I think the events over the last couple of years should be treated similarly.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Quick question - do you need a smart meter to go down this don't pay route? Keep looking at this and can't seem to find an answer or get various answers via social media..

Also, will it affect your credit score? Think someone asked earlier about paying your current amount. Cancel DD, make a payment each month, put the money aside to pay when you will have to or completely stop payments altogether until a resolution is come to?
		
Click to expand...

Running your credit card right up to its limit doesnt seem to impact your credit score as long as every month you pay the minimum payment, though they prefer us to be paying ‘minimum plus’ these days.  Indeed your credit score ‘likes’ managed debt.

So why not a government backed credit scheme (with a credit guarantee for the companies) for gas and electricity that everyone qualifies for equally…regardless of credit history, one in which we pay at least a minimum payment every month…let’s say set at level of what I was paying 6 months ago.  Maybe the credit limit is set at the average annual bill based upon the current cap and that limit increases as the cap increases.

Yes this means I will have a debt sitting there and building up but as it is one that I am servicing through my monthly payments it does not impact my credit scoring…just like a credit card balance…it can just sit there. After all this is how the power companies currently help customers manage a debt - though it still shows as debt on credit record it does not count as bad debt…(bit like student loan?) though it might well impact such as loan affordability assessments…but hey…let’s sort power first.

Only difference with what was is that the current situation is the huge numbers having to carry such a debt and the power companies may struggle to carry that customer debt themselves.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			We aren’t getting extraordinary solutions though are we? There has been no solution other than more debt. Which is possibly an acceptable solution if you are getting on a bit. But it will screw everyone else up.

If tax hikes are to be used to pay for this mess then it should include taxes on pensions.

What we are getting is a chance for us all to get a taste of how great life in the 70s was.

Secure our borders unleash Britain? What does that even mean? Weren’t we supposed to become a global superpower after you know what? How’s that working out?

Becoming more isolated because some people don’t like Johnny Foreigner isn’t going to help.
		
Click to expand...

Pensions are already taxed. State Pensions use up most of the tax free allowance and occupational pensions are taxed as income.

You are very divisive aren't you and generally towards old people. 

These huge problems we are and have been facing are nothing to do with changes to our trading arrangements, they are due to a Worldwide pandemic and a War that none of us envisaged.


----------



## GreiginFife (Aug 29, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Running your credit card right up to its limit doesnt seem to impact your credit score as long as every month you pay the minimum payment, though they prefer us to be paying ‘minimum plus’ these days.  Indeed your credit score ‘likes’ managed debt.*

So why not a government backed credit scheme (with a credit guarantee for the companies) for gas and electricity that everyone qualifies for equally…regardless of credit history, one in which we pay at least a minimum payment every month…let’s say set at level of what I was paying 6 months ago.  Maybe the credit limit is set at the average annual bill based upon the current cap and that limit increases as the cap increases.

Yes this means I will have a debt sitting there and building up but as it is one that I am servicing through my monthly payments it does not impact my credit scoring…just like a credit card balance…it can just sit there. After all this is how the power companies currently help customers manage a debt - though it still shows as debt on credit record it does not count as bad debt…(bit like student loan?) though it might well impact such as loan affordability assessments…but hey…let’s sort power first.

Only difference with what was is that the current situation is the huge numbers having to carry such a debt and the power companies may struggle to carry that customer debt themselves.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely wrong and quite dangerous to be posting such nonsense. 

Your credit rating is made up of a number of complex factors. Credit usage is one of these. Credit references monitor credit card usage as a percentage of total credit limit and your credit rating is adjusted as you hit marker “milestones”. These vary but generally tend to be 30, 50, 75+ and the impact increases as you go up the markers. 

Your credit “score” is pretty meaningless but your rating is different and utilisation plays a big part of rating. 

Paying the minimum amount is the minimum legal obligation but also now harms you as once you pay more in fees and interest than you contribute, you enter “persistent debt” which not only harms your rating but in most cases will see your card account frozen and ultimately closed and recovered. 

Yes, lenders like to see managed debt but not managed at its absolute limit when viewing your CAIS data, that just looks like you are reliant on credit and makes you less attractive to lend to (your credit “rating”) even if your “score” is ‘high’.

Please research things like this before posting incorrect and dangerous statements.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 30, 2022)




----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Absolutely wrong and quite dangerous to be posting such nonsense.

Your credit rating is made up of a number of complex factors. Credit usage is one of these. Credit references monitor credit card usage as a percentage of total credit limit and your credit rating is adjusted as you hit marker “milestones”. These vary but generally tend to be 30, 50, 75+ and the impact increases as you go up the markers.

Your credit “score” is pretty meaningless but your rating is different and utilisation plays a big part of rating.

Paying the minimum amount is the minimum legal obligation but also now harms you as once you pay more in fees and interest than you contribute, you enter “persistent debt” which not only harms your rating but in most cases will see your card account frozen and ultimately closed and recovered.

Yes, lenders like to see managed debt but not managed at its absolute limit when viewing your CAIS data, that just looks like you are reliant on credit and makes you less attractive to lend to (your credit “rating”) even if your “score” is ‘high’.

Please research things like this before posting incorrect and dangerous statements.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I have and did...and I may have got it a bit wrong in respect of impact on credit rating, but it is an approach that power companies support to managing debt - even if the payment is notional and payment period is decades.

And surely it does not take from having a government guaranteed credit card 'like' approach to managing power debt as a possible route to go to help alleviate the issues that many millions of families are facing in the coming months and possibly years.  And if we pay towards that credit at the rate we were paying a year ago then we are doing more than simply servicing a bit of interest - thereby hopefully minimising the impact on credit rating you point out.

Talk of future energy strategy is all well and good but it is of no help at all to these families who are facing immediate term real difficulties - indeed such talk to me seems little more than a diversion and distraction from the real issue - that which is the topic of this thread.


----------



## GreiginFife (Aug 30, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry I have and did...and I may have got it a bit wrong in respect of impact on credit rating, but it is an approach that power companies support to managing debt - even if the payment is notional and payment period is decades.

And surely it does not take from having a government guaranteed credit card 'like' approach to managing power debt as a possible route to go to help alleviate the issues that many millions of families are facing in the coming months and possibly years.  And if we pay towards that credit at the rate we were paying a year ago then we are doing more than simply servicing a bit of interest - thereby hopefully minimising the impact on credit rating you point out.

Talk of future energy strategy is all well and good but it is of no help at all to these families who are facing immediate term real difficulties - indeed such talk to me seems little more than a diversion and distraction from the real issue - that which is the topic of this thread.
		
Click to expand...

I make no comment on the government scheme, that was not the point of my reply. 

My reply was that advising people that maxing out their credit cards will have no effect is wrong and dangerous. Power companies are not financial institutions and their "support" on it doesn't really mean squat, they are not the ones that need to deal with the issues that such behaviours create. 

If you did research it then you have misunderstood it at best. Please re-read the FCA persistent debt rules again if you already have and refer to credit utilisation rules for clarification. 

I will repeat, using your credit card to it's limit and consistently paying minimum payments *WILL *affect your credit rating (even if your "score" stays 'high'), this is utterly regardless of what power companies support.


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 30, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Pensions are already taxed. State Pensions use up most of the tax free allowance and occupational pensions are taxed as income.

You are very divisive aren't you and generally towards old people.

These huge problems we are and have been facing are nothing to do with changes to our trading arrangements, they are due to a Worldwide pandemic and a War that none of us envisaged.
		
Click to expand...

I speak my mind. It’s not my problem if people take offence. I’m surrounded by pensioners that seemingly have more money than they know what to do with. 

I don’t see why we all, including older people can’t share some of the burden now, rather than pushing it on to our children and future generations.

They aren’t responsible for this mess. Young people get enough of a kicking as it is, I’m proving an alternative view.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I make no comment on the government scheme, that was not the point of my reply.

My reply was that advising people that maxing out their credit cards will have no effect is wrong and dangerous. Power companies are not financial institutions and their "support" on it doesn't really mean squat, they are not the ones that need to deal with the issues that such behaviours create.

If you did research it then you have misunderstood it at best. Please re-read the FCA persistent debt rules again if you already have and refer to credit utilisation rules for clarification.

I will repeat, using your credit card to it's limit and consistently paying minimum payments *WILL *affect your credit rating (even if your "score" stays 'high'), this is utterly regardless of what power companies support.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn’t advising anyone to max out a credit card…just that many do and choose to live with it.  My point is solely about thinking about some scheme that might enable us to build a debt, if we must, and manage it in a way that does not significantly impact our credit rating.  

Perhaps the better model would be the student loan scheme…from

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/8-things-you-should-know-about-your-student-loan--2

_Student loans are different from other types of borrowing because they do not appear on your credit file and your credit rating is not affected. However, if you apply for a mortgage, lenders may consider if you have a student loan when deciding how much you can borrow._

_Unlike other borrowing, what you repay depends on your income and not how much you owe. You repay 9% of your income above the repayment threshold for your plan type. If you’re not working or your income is below the threshold, you won’t make any repayments._


----------



## GreiginFife (Aug 30, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wasn’t advising anyone to max out a credit card…just that many do and choose to live with it.  My point is solely about thinking about some scheme that might enable us to build a debt, if we must, and manage it in a way that does not significantly impact our credit rating. 

Perhaps the better model would be the student loan scheme…from

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/8-things-you-should-know-about-your-student-loan--2

_Student loans are different from other types of borrowing because they do not appear on your credit file and your credit rating is not affected. However, if you apply for a mortgage, lenders may consider if you have a student loan when deciding how much you can borrow._

_Unlike other borrowing, what you repay depends on your income and not how much you owe. You repay 9% of your income above the repayment threshold for your plan type. If you’re not working or your income is below the threshold, you won’t make any repayments._

Click to expand...

If you read my reply you will see that I didn't say "advising people to max out their credit card", I said the advice, or even the intimation that it would have no impact on credit rating is wrong. People that choose to do and live with it, also live with the consequences of it. Either not being able to borrow or being sold products at much higher interest rates meaning much higher repayment commitments and entering a debt spiral. 

I understand what your intent is, but that is neither here nor there in that you made a potentially dangerous assertion that running a credit card at or near limit and paying minimum payments is a safe practice. 

Credit card lending is not like any other borrowing and, IMO, should not be used as a comparison against any schemes. 

But, that's up to you what you choose to analogue with, I just wouldn't advise CC borrowing as the means to do it. You're on much more solid ground (again IMO), analogy-wise, with that student loan approach.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I speak my mind. It’s not my problem if people take offence. I’m surrounded by pensioners that seemingly have more money than they know what to do with.

I don’t see why we all, including older people can’t share some of the burden now, rather than pushing it on to our children and future generations.

They aren’t responsible for this mess. Young people get enough of a kicking as it is, I’m proving an alternative view.
		
Click to expand...

As I said you are divisive, looking to blame segments of society for issues completely out of their control is wrong.  There are many extremely rich young people but should we be pointing the finger at them?  Of course we shouldn't.

Also, you were wrong in your comment suggesting Pensioners should be taxed, maybe you could admit you were wrong in assuming they aren't!  Old people will share the pain of this current situation, think about it.

I also speak my mind but I make an effort to think through what I say first.   Maybe you could do the same when providing your biased alternative view.


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 30, 2022)

I hope this doesn't veer to close to the political line as it's more of a general comment rather than aimed at any particular political party however does it worry anyone else that we're in this present situation and seemingly those in power are struggling to come up with solutions and are having to do it on the hop? When we were (for all intents and purposes) taken into this war isn't there a department that sits there and has a think about what the long term ramifications of it might be? 

We then started with sanctions on Russia and surely we knew that, other than a physical war, the only weapon they had would be energy given how reliant most parts of Europe are on it. I would have thought a department that deals with energy security or such like would have run all sorts of scenarios of what would happen if Russia turned off the taps, what would that mean for the countries who are reliant on it and the wider outlook on what it would do to the market. It can't have come as any surprise that when we started the sanctions that Russia started to threaten everyone with the only real weapon they had i.e. energy. Yet it seems to have come as a surprise and seemingly no draft plans were there of what we could do to mitigate this. Appreciate that this might be too simplistic a viewpoint but does worry me that our longer term planning seems pretty average.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If you read my reply you will see that I didn't say "advising people to max out their credit card", I said the advice, or even the intimation that it would have no impact on credit rating is wrong. People that choose to do and live with it, also live with the consequences of it. Either not being able to borrow or being sold products at much higher interest rates meaning much higher repayment commitments and entering a debt spiral.

I understand what your intent is, but that is neither here nor there in that you made a potentially dangerous assertion that running a credit card at or near limit and paying minimum payments is a safe practice.

Credit card lending is not like any other borrowing and, IMO, should not be used as a comparison against any schemes.

But, that's up to you what you choose to analogue with, I just wouldn't advise CC borrowing as the means to do it. You're on much more solid ground (again IMO), analogy-wise, with that student loan approach.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, my thoughts were on a credit scheme, and credit cards were simply what first came to mind as many of us have CCs and manage our payments one way or another. I was thinking of there being some sort of scheme that didn’t impact credit rating, and only further thought did I realise that student loans scheme was what I was after.

Bottom line for me on the subject of this thread is…better a managed debt than a county court judgement on my credit record as ’not paying’ could have me with one and they are a pain getting them resolved and removed.

At this precise moment I don’t give much of a flying fig about future energy security strategies, since as important as these *will* be and as diverting as talking points they might be for those who will manage, they actually don’t address the current issue and pending catastrophe for individuals and businesses and major problems for such as schools and hospitals.  

We need answers and solutions for what is happening today and will happen over the coming months…discussions about 5-10yrs hence are interesting but will not keep the lights and heating on this winter.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I hope this doesn't veer to close to the political line as it's more of a general comment rather than aimed at any particular political party however does it worry anyone else that we're in this present situation and seemingly those in power are struggling to come up with solutions and are having to do it on the hop? When we were (for all intents and purposes) taken into this war isn't there a department that sits there and has a think about what the long term ramifications of it might be?

We then started with sanctions on Russia and surely we knew that, other than a physical war, the only weapon they had would be energy given how reliant most parts of Europe are on it. I would have thought a department that deals with energy security or such like would have run all sorts of scenarios of what would happen if Russia turned off the taps, what would that mean for the countries who are reliant on it and the wider outlook on what it would do to the market. It can't have come as any surprise that when we started the sanctions that Russia started to threaten everyone with the only real weapon they had i.e. energy. Yet it seems to have come as a surprise and seemingly no draft plans were there of what we could do to mitigate this. Appreciate that this might be too simplistic a viewpoint but does worry me that our longer term planning seems pretty average.
		
Click to expand...

Good comments, IMO. Yes, there does seem to be a parcity of solutions from the ones whose job it is.
Talking of simplicity 😀  . A thought that recurs to me throughout this energy business is why the taps turned off by Russia, or whoever, causes those with the gas to sell, to sell it at outrageous prices.
I know the phrase supply and demand - I hear it ad nauseum.
Some people tell me the gas is sold by auction, and thus the price is bid upwards.
But the principle of an auction is that the available product goes to the one who will pay most. The ones who do not *do not get the product*. What there was has gone to someone else , the one who paid the highest price.
Now, can anyone tell me which Countries or whatever who buy and use this gas, are not getting any?
Is it Germany, Sweden, U.K., ...who?
Do you think that any of us, who can afford to pay up for this gas from the energy companies  for our house heating and cooking,will not get all they switch on for?
Thought not.
Same old story....tell 'me its supply and demand , there's a shortage so the price has gone up.........But anyone who coughs up the asking price will always get it. Funny that?


----------



## Mudball (Aug 30, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Good comments, IMO. Yes, there does seem to be a parcity of solutions from the ones whose job it is.
Talking of simplicity 😀  . A thought that recurs to me throughout this energy business is why the taps turned off by Russia, or whoever, causes those with the gas to sell, to sell it at outrageous prices.
I know the phrase supply and demand - I hear it ad nauseum.
Some people tell me the gas is sold by auction, and thus the price is bid upwards.
But the principle of an auction is that the available product goes to the one who will pay most. The ones who do not *do not get the product*. What there was has gone to someone else , the one who paid the highest price.
Now, can anyone tell me which Countries or whatever who buy and use this gas, are not getting any?
Is it Germany, Sweden, U.K., ...who?
Do you think that any of us, who can afford to pay up for this gas from the energy companies  for our house heating and cooking,will not get all they switch on for?
Thought not.
Same old story....tell 'me its supply and demand , there's a shortage so the price has gone up.........But anyone who coughs up the asking price will always get it. Funny that?
		
Click to expand...

I dont think there is a shortage per se...  there is excess Russian capacity, but they are not inclined to sell to Europe (incl us) or the US, so they burn this off.  Since there is only limited storage around, they are also making deals outside Europe.. India picked up a lot of cheap Russian oil.  China likewsie.  Equally, they will (or may have) curtail their production - basically leave it in the ground.    
Energy companies are trying to buy gas/oil from whereeve they can find - US, Middle East, South America, Australia etc.  This is going at premiums.   This then gets passed on to consumers.  The energy cos, are asking the Govt to provide support to buy commodities at premiums while the continue to hold the consumer end steady.  if the govt backs the idea, this guarantees that the energy co can have access to gas and therefore continue to guarantee it for the Brit consumer.   The govt currently refusing to support such a move.  apparently, if we get a tax cut, we can afford to pay for higher winter gas.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 30, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I hope this doesn't veer to close to the political line as it's more of a general comment rather than aimed at any particular political party however does it worry anyone else that we're in this present situation and seemingly those in power are struggling to come up with solutions and are having to do it on the hop? When we were (for all intents and purposes) taken into this war isn't there a department that sits there and has a think about what the long term ramifications of it might be?

We then started with sanctions on Russia and surely we knew that, other than a physical war, the only weapon they had would be energy given how reliant most parts of Europe are on it. I would have thought a department that deals with energy security or such like would have run all sorts of scenarios of what would happen if Russia turned off the taps, what would that mean for the countries who are reliant on it and the wider outlook on what it would do to the market. It can't have come as any surprise that when we started the sanctions that Russia started to threaten everyone with the only real weapon they had i.e. energy. Yet it seems to have come as a surprise and seemingly no draft plans were there of what we could do to mitigate this. Appreciate that this might be too simplistic a viewpoint but does worry me that our longer term planning seems pretty average.
		
Click to expand...

Here is a potential answer of what happens when we run out of gas > https://twitter.com/i/events/1564506955925815297


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Here is a potential answer of what happens when we run out of gas > https://twitter.com/i/events/1564506955925815297

Click to expand...

Sounds about what I would expect to happen.

If we use so much gas to generate electricity surely it would make sense to reduce electricity demand by turning off street lights, forcing offices etc to turn off unnecessary lights, air conditioning etc so that the gas fired generators could be scaled back.  How about a temporary ban on charging Electric Cars (Only Kidding 🙂)


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 30, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds about what I would expect to happen.

If we use so much gas to generate electricity surely it would make sense to reduce electricity demand by turning off street lights, forcing offices etc to turn off unnecessary lights, air conditioning etc so that the gas fired generators could be scaled back.  How about a temporary ban on charging Electric Cars (Only Kidding 🙂)
		
Click to expand...

Ironically vehicle to grid chargers are an important step to balancing our grid 

Currently only Nissan leaf works I believe but the idea is they install a super fast charger on your house.. when grid needs balancing they nick charge off your battery (leaving enough on it) but then replace it soon as possible (super charging so wouldn't be long)

Another one is the Tesla energy plan where tesla charge their batteries you own overnight then nick the charge in the peak


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 31, 2022)

I think what will happen is that loads will not be able to pay their bills and will fall in to debt. In two/three years time the then government will tell all energy companies to write all those debts off. £3500 for a years energy is bonkers. Loads will not be able to pay. It will be the only solution. Dare you risk not paying?????


----------



## bobmac (Aug 31, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			I think what will happen is that loads will not be able to pay their bills and will fall in to debt. In two/three years time the then government will tell all energy companies to write all those debts off. £3500 for a years energy is bonkers. Loads will not be able to pay. It will be the only solution. Dare you risk not paying?????
		
Click to expand...

You've missed out the next increase in January, another 19%


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 31, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			I think what will happen is that loads will not be able to pay their bills and will fall in to debt. In two/three years time the then government will tell all energy companies to write all those debts off. £3500 for a years energy is bonkers. Loads will not be able to pay. It will be the only solution. *Dare you risk not paying*?????
		
Click to expand...

I think you've already answered that with your opening sentence. Whilst there are bound to be a number who decide to refuse to pay as a protest that number is likely to be dwarfed by those who simply cannot pay and that number will increase considerably in January when we have the next increase. 

It amazes me that those in power still trot out the line of the help that's coming (£400.00 etc) for the winter that was based on a cap of £1,900 odd. The cap is already 80% up on that and expected to be another 50% in January. 



bobmac said:



			You've missed out the next increase in January, another 19%
		
Click to expand...

I wish it were 19%, the current prediction is a 51% increase.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I wish it were 19%, the current prediction is a 51% increase.
		
Click to expand...

I've seen two figures.... 19% and 51%

I guess I'm just being hopeful it's the lower number

_From a current cap of £1,971, ($2,383) the firm expects prices to rise to £3,582 ($4,331) from October 2022, and £4,266 ($5,158) from January 2023_

https://www.power-technology.com/news/uk-energy-tariff-price-cap-rise-cornwall-insight/


----------



## Marshy77 (Aug 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've seen two figures.... 19% and 51%

I guess I'm just being hopeful it's the lower number

_From a current cap of £1,971, ($2,383) the firm expects prices to rise to £3,582 ($4,331) from October 2022, and £4,266 ($5,158) from January 2023_

https://www.power-technology.com/news/uk-energy-tariff-price-cap-rise-cornwall-insight/

Click to expand...

Martin Lewis reporting a 52% increase!


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've seen two figures.... 19% and 51%

I guess I'm just being hopeful it's the lower number

_From a current cap of £1,971, ($2,383) the firm expects prices to rise to £3,582 ($4,331) from October 2022, and £4,266 ($5,158) from January 2023_

https://www.power-technology.com/news/uk-energy-tariff-price-cap-rise-cornwall-insight/

Click to expand...

So far Cornwall Insights have been pretty accurate on the previous cap changes so their prediction of 51% is, unfortunately, more likely to be the figure than the 19%

This is what they've said for next year....

January 2023: £5386 
April 2023: £6616


----------



## bobmac (Aug 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So far Cornwall Insights have been pretty accurate on the previous cap changes so their prediction of 51% is, unfortunately, more likely to be the figure than the 19%

This is what they've said for next year....

January 2023: £5386
April 2023: £6616
		
Click to expand...

Does it matter, if people can't afford to pay the increase in October, they sure as hell won't be able to afford any increase in January


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Does it matter, if people can't afford to pay the increase in October, they sure as hell won't be able to afford any increase in January
		
Click to expand...

I think it matters as the group who are unable to pay just keeps increasing, there are going to be those who can pay in October but cannot in January. Even when the cap 'stabilises' it's predicted to be at the £5,800 mark for the rest of next year.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 31, 2022)

It won't matter to the rich people who are making the decisions


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It won't matter to the rich people who are making the decisions
		
Click to expand...

You might well be right however traditionally an increase is prices etc has  tended to be limited to the lowest earners but these caps are affecting a huge number of people who’ve never given rises much of a thought. Remember, the price cap is only a cap on the unit price so households can easily be paying well over these yearly prices as they’re based on ‘average’ usage.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			You might well be right however traditionally an increase is prices etc has  tended to be limited to the lowest earners but these caps are affecting a huge number of people who’ve never given rises much of a thought. Remember, the price cap is only a cap on the unit price so households can easily be paying well over these yearly prices as they’re based on ‘average’ usage.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I had no idea.........
I'm out before I get Fraggered


----------



## Mudball (Aug 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Does it matter, if people can't afford to pay the increase in October, they sure as hell won't be able to afford any increase in January
		
Click to expand...

But help is coming and the tax cut will unleash our global ambitions..   Also we need to pay higher prices because others are paying with blood.  Also freezing prices is a handout which we cant be seen as doing 

Random Question....  If Putin decides to go back home tomorrow, will we see prices & caps come down.


----------



## Marshy77 (Aug 31, 2022)

Mudball said:



			But help is coming and the tax cut will unleash our global ambitions..   Also we need to pay higher prices because others are paying with blood.  Also freezing prices is a handout which we cant be seen as doing

Random Question....  If Putin decides to go back home tomorrow, will we see prices & caps come down.
		
Click to expand...

No.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 31, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			No.
		
Click to expand...

Why? we are being told that the price is rising because of the war.  So if the war comes to an end, what is the new reason..


----------



## Marshy77 (Aug 31, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Why? we are being told that the price is rising because of the war.  So if the war comes to an end, what is the new reason..
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine there would be another reason/excuse or possibly the knock on affect of the war. I read the other day that only a very small % of gas does actually come from Russia.


----------



## road2ruin (Aug 31, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Why? we are being told that the price is rising because of the war.  So if the war comes to an end, what is the new reason..
		
Click to expand...

Initially they’ll claim that they’re buying the gas in advance at the higher price so there won’t be an immediate reduction. I also suspect it’ll be similaR to fuel prices….’rocket and feather’


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I think you've already answered that with your opening sentence. Whilst there are bound to be a number who decide to refuse to pay as a protest that number is likely to be dwarfed by those who simply cannot pay and that number will increase considerably in January when we have the next increase.

*It amazes me that those in power still trot out the line of the help that's coming* (£400.00 etc) for the winter that was based on a cap of £1,900 odd. The cap is already 80% up on that and expected to be another 50% in January.



I wish it were 19%, the current prediction is a 51% increase.
		
Click to expand...

It really shouldn't.  The truth and actuality of the situation is probably just too daunting and it will be difficult to comprehend, never mind come up with, any solution within the normal scheme of support or policy.  It's tough I grant you, but they are there to deal with the difficult stuff they'd rather not have to deal with, as well as the easy stuff and the stuff they like to sort.

Given we must be expected to pay at least what we have been paying before the costs starting rocketing, maybe even most of what we are paying now, that is why I suggest a scheme of similar nature to the student loan scheme (that essentially is repaid as if its an additional tax that students with a loan pay) is an option that might work for most, if not all, of us.  Maybe just  call it the Consumer Power Loan - and manage repayments like a tax.


----------



## Mudball (Aug 31, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It really shouldn't.  The truth and actuality of the situation is probably just too daunting and it will be difficult to comprehend, never mind come up with, any solution within the normal scheme of support or policy.  It's tough I grant you, but they are there to deal with the difficult stuff they'd rather not have to deal with, as well as the easy stuff and the stuff they like to sort.

Given we must be expected to pay at least what we have been paying before the costs starting rocketing, maybe even most of what we are paying now, that is why I suggest a scheme of similar nature to the student loan scheme (that essentially is repaid as if its an additional tax that students with a loan pay) is an option that might work for most, if not all, of us.  Maybe just  call it the Consumer Power Loan - and manage repayments like a tax.
		
Click to expand...

While your solution is a sensible option, i think we are asking consumers to pay the price for collective govt failure to invest in energy security.  Unlike a student loan, doing a consumer power loan is logistical challenge.  Assume every household owe the govt 25k at the end of next year.  
What happens when pensioner dies but a student lives on... Does the young one carry the load into the future?  What happens when the household breaks up via divorce? who has to pay the loan back.  What happens when you downsize or upsize your home? Do you inherit the cost associated with the new house or do u carry the debt around.    Student loan is relatively simple.   A young 25yr old  coming out of Uni, is expected to live an earning life and is named as the responsible person.  Consumer/Household loan more difficult.  (ps: Just my opinion) 

It is easier to manage the loan at the energy company.. similar to what we did to the banks.   Take a stake in Natwest for XX billions.  Then paid it back/made profit.


----------



## chellie (Sep 1, 2022)

Latest from Martin Lewis https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/latesttip/#hiya

Again he's having to explain that there is NO cap on the amount your energy use could cost you. I don't understand why people don't realise this.


----------



## Marshy77 (Sep 1, 2022)

chellie said:



			Latest from Martin Lewis https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/latesttip/#hiya

Again he's having to explain that there is NO cap on the amount your energy use could cost you. I don't understand why people don't realise this.
		
Click to expand...

It's pretty frightening really that after everything he's put out he still has to explain it.


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			It's pretty frightening really that after everything he's put out he still has to explain it.
		
Click to expand...

Because we now live in a post-truth world... we are being conditioned to not believe anything that does not agree with our narrative or beliefs...   apparently it is Us against Them (even if it is Them telling us that)...   Martin Lewis has been crying wolf for some time, and no one listens to him anymore..


----------



## road2ruin (Sep 1, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			It's pretty frightening really that after everything he's put out he still has to explain it.
		
Click to expand...

What I find really frightening is the amount of abuse he gets on Twitter, all he’s doing is scaremongering etc etc. There’s a lot of deluded people out there with their heads firmly in the sand.


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			What I find really frightening is the amount of abuse he gets on Twitter, all he’s doing is scaremongering etc etc. There’s a lot of deluded people out there with their heads firmly in the sand.
		
Click to expand...

We have trained people to put blinkers on... despite the self harm, they will call it scaremongering, project fear etc.... this is the post-truth world.


----------



## Marshy77 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Because we now live in a post-truth world... we are being conditioned to not believe anything that does not agree with our narrative or beliefs...   apparently it is Us against Them (even if it is Them telling us that)...   Martin Lewis has been crying wolf for some time, and no one listens to him anymore..
		
Click to expand...

I don't really believe that, I'd guess more do believe what he says as he's been pretty accurate/helpful for years now. I think (without getting political) people question the info from the government more than from people like him. 

As Chellie said which I totally agree with is that he puts the information out there, with explanations and even how to calculate the increases yet despite this people still underestimate their DD amount purely based on the increase rather their individual usage.


----------



## adam6177 (Sep 1, 2022)

Same thing is happening with home fuel that happened with petrol/diesel...... they're now talking about freezing prices for the next 2 years, like that's doing us a favour.  Then we'll all have forgotton how cheap energy was and the current prices will be normalised. 

Remember when fuel prices were 90p or even £1.20....... those days are long gone.

The part I'm truly struggling to fully get to grips with, is despite Russia accounting for only 6% of our energy supply, everywhere has gone up in price by X amount... including renewable tariffs.


----------



## Marshy77 (Sep 1, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Same thing is happening with home fuel that happened with petrol/diesel...... they're now talking about freezing prices for the next 2 years, like that's doing us a favour.  Then we'll all have forgotton how cheap energy was and the current prices will be normalised.

Remember when fuel prices were 90p or even £1.20....... those days are long gone.

The part I'm truly struggling to fully get to grips with, is despite Russia accounting for only 6% of our energy supply, everywhere has gone up in price by X amount... including renewable tariffs.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree.


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Totally agree.
		
Click to expand...

We may buy only 6% from Russia.   Say we buy from US.   When Russia turns off the tap to Germany, Germany wil try and buy US oil/gas.  so cost of US gas goes up and that is the same we are competing for.  So overall demand has outstripped supply for non-russian products.  Hence we pay more even though we dont buy from Russia directly.

It is the 100% renewable one that gets more irritating, though i think i understand why that goes up.  but it is a random irritation for me.


----------



## road2ruin (Sep 1, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Same thing is happening with home fuel that happened with petrol/diesel...... they're now talking about freezing prices for the next 2 years, like that's doing us a favour.  Then we'll all have forgotton how cheap energy was and the current prices will be normalised.

Remember when fuel prices were 90p or even £1.20....... those days are long gone.

The part I'm truly struggling to fully get to grips with, is despite Russia accounting for only 6% of our energy supply, everywhere has gone up in price by X amount... including renewable tariffs.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, I said at the very start of this rise in energy bills that my worry is that it’d become the new normal. Even if prices did drop it’d be way above what we were paying 12 months or so ago. I remember when petrol first hit the £1 mark and in our local area there were queues to get it. People barely bat an eyelid when it went £1.50 and beyond. Same thing will happen with energy.


----------



## chellie (Sep 1, 2022)

Being reported that Ravil Maganov, Chairman of the Board of Lukoil, Russia’s 2nd-largest company & one of the world’s largest oil producers, has died after falling out of a window in Moscow In March, the board called for a quick termination of the war & expressed empathy for all victims


----------



## road2ruin (Sep 1, 2022)

chellie said:



			Being reported that Ravil Maganov, Chairman of the Board of Lukoil, Russia’s 2nd-largest company & one of the world’s largest oil producers, has died after falling out of a window in Moscow In March, the board called for a quick termination of the war & expressed empathy for all victims
		
Click to expand...

‘Accidentally’ fell out of a hospital window whilst receiving treatment for something else. Happens all the time….


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Sep 1, 2022)

Mudball said:



			We may buy only 6% from Russia.   Say we buy from US.   When Russia turns off the tap to Germany, *Germany wil try and buy US oil/gas.  so cost of US gas goes up and that is the same we are competing for. * So overall demand has outstripped supply for non-russian products.  Hence we pay more even though we dont buy from Russia directly.

It is the 100% renewable one that gets more irritating, though i think i understand why that goes up.  but it is a random irritation for me.
		
Click to expand...

Again I query  this readily accepted reason for why the price should go up highly - unless its unacceptable profiteering.Which I suspect.
Buyers are buying from the U .S.
Along comes Germany , and whoever, to buy from the U,S.
Why cannot Germany be sold the gas at the same price the others are paying?
(Don't trot out "supply and demand")
There is no good reason other than unacceptable profiteering. it isn't necessary to put the price up. They could go on selling the gas at the same profit margin that they were selling it at before Germany et al came along.


And if someone replies that the gas is sold "by auction", let me remind that in an auction the highest bidder gets the item. The other bidders don't get it..
If the gas is sold by auction, what Countries are not getting any gas because they haven't bid high enough?........
Exactly.
Like the energy being sold this winter.. If you can and do pay the price they are asking you can have as much gas and electricity as you want..
Do you think anyone is going to be told....You cannot have any gas, even though you have the money.?

Somebody is making, or going to make,  a packet.


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 1, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Again I query  this readily accepted reason for why the price should go up highly - unless its unacceptable profiteering.Which I suspect.
Buyers are buying from the U .S.
Along comes Germany , and whoever, to buy from the U,S.
Why cannot Germany be sold the gas at the same price the others are paying?
(Don't trot out "supply and demand")
There is no good reason other than unacceptable profiteering. it isn't necessary to put the price up. They could go on selling the gas at the same profit margin that they were selling it at before Germany et al came along.


And if someone replies that the gas is sold "by auction", let me remind that in an auction the highest bidder gets the item. The other bidders don't get it..
If the gas is sold by auction, what Countries are not getting any gas because they haven't bid high enough?........
Exactly.
Like the energy being sold this winter.. If you can and do pay the price they are asking you can have as much gas and electricity as you want..
Do you think anyone is going to be told....You cannot have any gas, even though you have the money.?

Somebody is making, or going to make,  a packet.
		
Click to expand...

We are getting ripped off. Simple as that.

I saw a meme on FB showing the amount of Gas we get from Russia compared with France and Germany and how much our relative gas bills have risen.

We get about 4%
France get 14%
Germany get 49%

But gas bills are rising:
U.K. 80%
France 4%
Germany 13%

I took it with a pinch of salt it being FB and had a little dig into it.

Turns out it’s true, this article explains why it’s a predictably depressing catalogue of short sightedness, under investment, lack of storage and privatisation. 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...gy-prices-how-does-the-uk-compare-with-europe


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Again I query  this readily accepted reason for why the price should go up highly - unless its unacceptable profiteering.Which I suspect.
Buyers are buying from the U .S.
Along comes Germany , and whoever, to buy from the U,S.
Why cannot Germany be sold the gas at the same price the others are paying?
(Don't trot out "supply and demand")
There is no good reason other than unacceptable profiteering. it isn't necessary to put the price up. They could go on selling the gas at the same profit margin that they were selling it at before Germany et al came along.


And if someone replies that the gas is sold "by auction", let me remind that in an auction the highest bidder gets the item. The other bidders don't get it..
If the gas is sold by auction, what Countries are not getting any gas because they haven't bid high enough?........
Exactly.
Like the energy being sold this winter.. If you can and do pay the price they are asking you can have as much gas and electricity as you want..
Do you think anyone is going to be told....You cannot have any gas, even though you have the money.?

Somebody is making, or going to make,  a packet.
		
Click to expand...

Very good post. Nail on head.


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			We are getting ripped off. Simple as that.

I saw a meme on FB showing the amount of Gas we get from Russia compared with France and Germany and how much our relative gas bills have risen.

We get about 4%
France get 14%
Germany get 49%

But gas bills are rising:
U.K. 80%
France 4%
Germany 13%

I took it with a pinch of salt it being FB and had a little dig into it.

Turns out it’s true, this article explains why it’s a predictably depressing catalogue of short sightedness, under investment, lack of storage and privatisation.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...gy-prices-how-does-the-uk-compare-with-europe

Click to expand...


Because the govt in France and Germany care about citizens.   I could say something about ours, but Fragger will come around on his infraction horse..


----------



## theoneandonly (Sep 1, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			We are getting ripped off. Simple as that.

I saw a meme on FB showing the amount of Gas we get from Russia compared with France and Germany and how much our relative gas bills have risen.

We get about 4%
France get 14%
Germany get 49%

But gas bills are rising:
U.K. 80%
France 4%
Germany 13%

I took it with a pinch of salt it being FB and had a little dig into it.

Turns out it’s true, this article explains why it’s a predictably depressing catalogue of short sightedness, under investment, lack of storage and privatisation. 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...gy-prices-how-does-the-uk-compare-with-europe

Click to expand...

Is that the France that gets most of it's electricy from nuclear? It's not really possible to compare the 2 to be fair, but I guess it's easy clickbait.
EDF is state owned, it's a lot more complex than just freezing the price. It will need paying for in the end....


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 1, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Because the govt in France and Germany care about citizens.   I could say something about ours, but Fragger will come around on his infraction horse..
		
Click to expand...

Problem goes back to the 80s so both sides of the house had plenty of time to fix it but chose short term gains.


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 1, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Is that the France that gets most of it's electricy from nuclear? *It's not really possible to compare the 2 to be fair, *but I guess it's easy clickbait.
EDF is state owned, it's a lot more complex than just freezing the price. It will need paying for in the end....
		
Click to expand...

Why should we not compare? 

Seems like France had the foresight not to put all its eggs in one basket with nuclear and we chose to flog everything off…ironically to the French (EDF)


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Is that the France that gets most of it's electricy from nuclear? It's not really possible to compare the 2 to be fair, but I guess it's easy clickbait.
EDF is state owned, it's a lot more complex than just freezing the price. It will need paying for in the end....
		
Click to expand...

Not really to do where they get their electric from because electric is charged at an international rate regardless if its nuclear , coal or renewables ( which is why people are confused why their wind and solar supply still go up) it's that the French government own edf and told them to swallow up the rises and cap it at 4%

We don't own ours

Id like us as a nation move to non for profit companies for energy, transport,water and telecoms .. so profits go back into the network and not to share holders


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Not really to do where they get their electric from because electric is charged at an international rate regardless if its nuclear , coal or renewables ( which is why people are confused why their wind and solar supply still go up) it's that the French government own edf and told them to swallow up the rises and cap it at 4%

We don't own ours

Id like us as a nation move to non for profit companies for energy, transport,water and telecoms .. so profits go back into the network and not to share holders
		
Click to expand...

You and your lefty ideas 😂😂

Boris has ok-ed the Sizewell-C nuclear plant..  funnily blames short terminuses of politicians for not thinking about energy esp those from Labour and LD..

https://apple.news/AvJtseuUVQ72ybCnf3GMqgA


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 1, 2022)

Mudball said:



			You and your lefty ideas 😂😂

Boris has ok-ed the Sizewell-C nuclear plant..  funnily blames short terminuses of politicians for not thinking about energy esp those from Labour and LD..

https://apple.news/AvJtseuUVQ72ybCnf3GMqgA

Click to expand...

We will miss him when he’s gone.🤪


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2022)

Mudball said:



			You and your lefty ideas 😂😂

Boris has ok-ed the Sizewell-C nuclear plant..  funnily blames short terminuses of politicians for not thinking about energy esp those from Labour and LD..

https://apple.news/AvJtseuUVQ72ybCnf3GMqgA

Click to expand...

Left would be nationalising 🙂


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			We will miss him when he’s gone.🤪
		
Click to expand...

Roll on 2024.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Roll on 2024.
		
Click to expand...

Might get him back 😳


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Might get him back 😳
		
Click to expand...

If there is any justice in the world he will be in prison by then.


----------



## theoneandonly (Sep 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Not really to do where they get their electric from because electric is charged at an international rate regardless if its nuclear , coal or renewables ( which is why people are confused why their wind and solar supply still go up) it's that the French government own edf and told them to swallow up the rises and cap it at 4%

We don't own ours

Id like us as a nation move to non for profit companies for energy, transport,water and telecoms .. so profits go back into the network and not to share holders
		
Click to expand...

And it's the French taxpayer who will end up footing the bill...


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			And it's the French taxpayer who will end up footing the bill...
		
Click to expand...

Which isn't actually a bad thing.. can be spread over years and the wealthiest pay more than the poorest 

Almost like a fair system


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Sep 1, 2022)

Guys
Please stop the little political digs and snipes
c'mon you know the regs by now


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2022)

chellie said:



			Latest from Martin Lewis https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/latesttip/#hiya

Again he's having to explain that there is NO cap on the amount your energy use could cost you. I don't understand why people don't realise this.
		
Click to expand...

...because too many news outlets (I exclude all BBC outlets from this) loosely and simply describe the cap in ££££s terms, without the necessary conditionality.


----------



## Mudball (Sep 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Left would be nationalising 🙂
		
Click to expand...

Looks like we took a decision on 2008 we said we wanted to build 8 nuclear stations to replace the ageing sites, but later decision was made by someone not to build because they won’t be ready by 2021 .. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565349035493687296
Hindsight is always 20/20


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2022)

If we wait to see what happens before doing something it'll be too late...Ovo Energy's boss, Stephen Fitzpatrick.  Well it would appear that we are waiting...


----------



## chellie (Sep 2, 2022)

Never mind we can all buy a new kettle


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Sep 2, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Looks like we took a decision on 2008 we said we wanted to build 8 nuclear stations to replace the ageing sites, but later decision was made by someone not to build because they won’t be ready by 2021 ..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565349035493687296
Hindsight is always 20/20
		
Click to expand...

In this case 2022😀


----------



## PNWokingham (Sep 2, 2022)

very interseting video on the US and its strategic advantages in many areas, and talks a lot about their oil and gas resurgence over the past 20 years and how they are in control of their energy policy, in stark contrast to Europe - also laying bare the awful decisions that Europe have made over the past decade. Fracking is bound to be a hot topic over the coming months, especially when you understand what it has done for the US


----------



## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 2, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Looks like we took a decision on 2008 we said we wanted to build 8 nuclear stations to replace the ageing sites, but later decision was made by someone not to build because they won’t be ready by 2021 ..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565349035493687296
Hindsight is always 20/20
		
Click to expand...

May be best to first come up with a solution for long term storage of our existing nuclear waste before we create more....

Need to find the 20-53 billion required to build the GDF (big underground storage repository) to store existing waste for 200,000 years and this won't be ready before 2040 even if they started tomorrow.
Then find an area of the country who's population is happy to have this underneath them.

Then there's the fact we don't reprocess any spent fuel now, Magnox at Sellafield finished last month so all spent fuel from reactors will now be left in cooling ponds indefinitely with no capability to reprocess.

While in theory nuclear is a good solution, we need storage for existing and new waste and strategy to reprocess new waste. 

New builds are a good soundbite but far more involved than just building one.....upfront cost of new build far smaller than the back end cost of making it safe(r) and long term storage.

Fusion would be the game changer but pie in the sky at present


----------



## road2ruin (Sep 2, 2022)

Just thought I'd depress myself a little by working out exactly what we might be facing in the coming months.

I've based this on the last 12 months consumption which works out to be 18,770 kWh in gas and 4,291 kWh in electricity.

In October our monthly payment would increase to £439.00* (from £300.00) and in January to £658.00.

The projected standing charge would be 74p per day for gas and £1.13 per day for electricity assuming nothing changes. This would mean paying the thick end of £700 a year for just having gas and electricity supplied to the home with zero usage!!

* This doesn't take into account the £66 per month reduction we're going to get for the 6 months from October


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Just thought I'd depress myself a little by working out exactly what we might be facing in the coming months.

I've based this on the last 12 months consumption which works out to be 18,770 kWh in gas and 4,291 kWh in electricity.

In October our monthly payment would increase to £439.00* (from £300.00) and in January to £658.00.

The projected standing charge would be 74p per day for gas and £1.13 per day for electricity assuming nothing changes. This would mean paying the thick end of £700 a year for just having gas and electricity supplied to the home with zero usage!!

* This doesn't take into account the £66 per month reduction we're going to get for the 6 months from October
		
Click to expand...

If I do nothing and go onto the variable in Feb (this calculated at October price cap so will rise) 8500 KW (down a bit because of the panels) £4294 (electric only)

If I stay on go faster (8.25 night 40p day currently, My deal is 5.5p ATM until Feb) £2500 but once the battery arrives next month can load manage to about £1500 .. 

Gas managed to lock until April at 9p (at time seemed massive now it's small fry) 

So until April £800 in gas from now (based on last year's figures) 

I've managed to build up £800 in credit keeping my DD at £200 .. the solars helped boost that (example this month £62 bill, £10 credit for selling back, used to be £100-110)

So from now until April let's assume zero solar to plan for worst case 

£100 month electric sept - Feb (£500)
£200 month Feb to April (£400)
Gas £800 as previously stated 

£1700 until April .. £800 credit so £900 to find .. 400 help from gov so £500 left which will be covered in my payments and still hopefully keep a good slush towards post April 

If the battery is installed by Oct I can load manage to build up more saving 

Just kicking can down road but hopefully can keep bills at this level until next winter


----------



## road2ruin (Sep 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If I do nothing and go onto the variable in Feb (this calculated at October price cap so will rise) 8500 KW (down a bit because of the panels) £4294 (electric only)

If I stay on go faster (8.25 night 40p day currently, My deal is 5.5p ATM until Feb) £2500 but once the battery arrives next month can load manage to about £1500 ..

Gas managed to lock until April at 9p (at time seemed massive now it's small fry)

So until April £800 in gas from now (based on last year's figures)

I've managed to build up £800 in credit keeping my DD at £200 .. the solars helped boost that (example this month £62 bill, £10 credit for selling back, used to be £100-110)

So from now until April let's assume zero solar to plan for worst case

£100 month electric sept - Feb (£500)
£200 month Feb to April (£400)
Gas £800 as previously stated

£1700 until April .. £800 credit so £900 to find .. 400 help from gov so £500 left which will be covered in my payments and still hopefully keep a good slush towards post April

If the battery is installed by Oct I can load manage to build up more saving

Just kicking can down road but hopefully can keep bills at this level until next winter
		
Click to expand...

Ah yeah, should have added into mind, managed to build up £1,000 in credit and figure I can get that up a little bit more until the heating goes back on. That'll help us get through this winter and hope that additional help/ideas will arrive before we face winter 2023.


----------



## pauljames87 (Sep 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Ah yeah, should have added into mind, managed to build up £1,000 in credit and figure I can get that up a little bit more until the heating goes back on. That'll help us get through this winter and hope that additional help/ideas will arrive before we face winter 2023.
		
Click to expand...

Before the solar project I was just hoping to keep the old rates for a year on go faster (which I luckily did , 14 day 5.5 night) I said I'd up my DD to £200 (was £180) and hopefully see this mess out or least have a level amount for 2 years 

I'm now just hoping the project can help us level off the bills another year after that , hopefully won't last forever 

What seriously concerns me is I'm able to do this and it's not ideal but manageable , had to pay £150 a month for the project for 10 years etc 

How the hell are people going to manage on mass? This is insane. 

Something has to be done and soon.

No sooner as I post this the Russians have shut off the gas to Europe indefinitely.. 

Definitely need to do something


----------



## Mudball (Sep 2, 2022)




----------



## Mudball (Sep 8, 2022)

i am glad that common sense has prevailed today.... there is help for ALL households.   
There will always be debate about national debt, but that is for another day.


----------

