# Help for self employed



## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

So the headline is that you can claim 80% of profit up to £2500 a month (as per employed people), albeit no money will be paid until early June when you will receive one lump sum

To claim this, you have to have submitted a tax return for 2019, if you havent done so you have 4 weeks from today to do so

If anyone hasnt submitted theirs and needs any help/support then feel free to message me and I will help wherever possible (I am a qualified account, albeit not a practising one currently)




https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-gives-support-to-millions-of-self-employed-individuals


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## Paperboy (Mar 26, 2020)

How does it work for me my financial year ends in May?
Not that I've got any work.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2020)

Steve..did I hear correctly that they will contact us with a form to fill in if we qualify?


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			How does it work for me my financial year ends in May?
Not that I've got any work.
		
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Based on what ive seen/heard, your financial year end doesnt matter, it will be based on prior years that you should have already submitted but will clarify when I can find more info


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Steve..did I hear correctly that they will contact us with a form to fill in if we qualify?
		
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I assume that will be the case and without doubt the form will be on the gov.uk website at some point, more will be known when they release the full details


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

Remember, it's a grant, no such thing as free money.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			I assume that will be the case and without doubt the form will be on the gov.uk website at some point, more will be known when they release the full details
		
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Cool
And the 2019 tax return they're on about is for work done 2018-19 isnt it....did one last year and paid in Jan.
I always get confused with the years...


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

"It offers some parity with the employee scheme - 80% of profits up to £2,500 a month for three months initially. Unlike the employee scheme, the self-employed can continue to work. It is targeted at up to 3.8 million of the 5 million people registered as self-employed, who earn under £50k. The money, backdated till March, will arrive directly into people's banks accounts from HMRC as a lump sum for all three months, but not until June. The grants will be taxable, and will need to be declared on tax returns by January 2022.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Cool
And the 2019 tax return they're on about is for work done 2018-19 isnt it....did one last year and paid in Jan.
I always get confused with the years...

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Yes 2018/19 tax year which shouldve been filed by 31st Jan 2020


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2020)

Cheers Steve..


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			How does it work for me my financial year ends in May?
Not that I've got any work.
		
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Regardless, you have to submit your returns by January 31st for the previous year.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Cheers Steve..

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I assume youre organised and filed already (unlike 2 friends already lol)


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Steve..did I hear correctly that they will contact us with a form to fill in if we qualify?
		
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yes


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-gives-support-to-millions-of-self-employed-individuals


Thats as much as is out there info wise currently

Confirms they will contact you if you qualify


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

@fundy I'm self employed and I've got Mrs Colch on the books of my limited company. Am I right to assume that I would get a single payment to the company rather than something to each of us?

Edit - just seen that it doesn't cover us as we pay salary and dividends so it looks like I'm stuffed in terms of getting any government help.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			I assume youre organised and filed already (unlike 2 friends already lol)
		
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Completely up to date.
The Old Man was a tax inspector- couldn't get away with anything......


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

It’s a step in the right direction. i fear for those that have to wait til June like but nevertheless.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Completely up to date.
The Old Man was a tax inspector- couldn't get away with anything......
		
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They’re the best ones, I always pay the tax man, through gritted teeth though.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			How does it work for me my financial year ends in May?
Not that I've got any work.
		
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You can’t claim for 2019-20 this years, it’s going to be based on the previous 3 yrs. 16-17/17-18/18-19.

if you’ve only just registered for SE you’re goosed, it’s universal credit only for you.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



@fundy I'm self employed and I've got Mrs Colch on the books of my limited company. Am I right to assume that I would get a single payment to the company rather than something to each of us?
		
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when you say self employed do you mean youre the director of your own limited company? 

If so this is the poignant part from the limited info available 

"those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes."


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

Rishi Sunak does seem to be on top of his coronavirus brief.  Comes across well.  Calm, articulate and authentic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			So the headline is that you can claim 80% of profit up to £2500 a month (as per employed people), albeit no money will be paid until early June when you will receive one lump sum

To claim this, you have to have submitted a tax return for 2019, if you havent done so you have 4 weeks from today to do so

If anyone hasnt submitted theirs and needs any help/support then feel free to message me and I will help wherever possible (I am a qualified account, albeit not a practising one currently)




https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-gives-support-to-millions-of-self-employed-individuals

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I may well call upon your support as I am about to do my sons done for 2018/19.  Many thanks for your kind offer on this.


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## road2ruin (Mar 26, 2020)

What I cannot understand with this announcement is why people who are 8 weeks late in filing their tax return are being given another 4 weeks to ensure they are included and as such delay payments to those who are in genuine need. 

These people shouldn’t be given the leeway and it will be a lesson in filing on time that maybe they will learn from.


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## road2ruin (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			when you say self employed do you mean youre the director of your own limited company?

If so this is the poignant part from the limited info available

"those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes."
		
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I am in this situation, I am a limited company that employs myself and my wife. We can paid via a PAYE salary and dividends. My company is basically in stasis as it’s Market Research and reliant on being face to face. No work currently on the books and and unlikely to have any until things return to ‘normal’.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 26, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			What I cannot understand with this announcement is why people who are 8 weeks late in filing their tax return are being given another 4 weeks to ensure they are included and as such delay payments to those who are in genuine need.

These people shouldn’t be given the leeway and it will be a lesson in filing on time that maybe they will learn from.
		
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Surely they will be at the back of the queue.Gov‘t has been generous in allowing longer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			It’s a step in the right direction. I fear for those that have to wait til June like but nevertheless.
		
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could be tough for some...and it's not as if you can claim UC and ask for an early payment of that if you are going to get income 'support' in June that is backdated.  

Maybe ask for an extension to an existing overdraft facility - or stick it all on a credit card...


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I may well call upon your support as I am about to do my sons done for 2018/19.  Many thanks for your kind offer on this.
		
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When should it have been submitted please?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			when you say self employed do you mean youre the director of your own limited company? 

If so this is the poignant part from the limited info available 

"those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes."
		
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Both of us are directors of the company. Me with 85% and her with 15%. I'm not sure if we operate a PAYE scheme or not. The accountant set it all up for me and I just do what he tells me to do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			What I cannot understand with this announcement is why people who are 8 weeks late in filing their tax return are being given another 4 weeks to ensure they are included and as such delay payments to those who are in genuine need.

These people shouldn’t be given the leeway and it will be a lesson in filing on time that maybe they will learn from.
		
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Is the June date based upon HMRC waiting 4 weeks for those having not done a return yet?  Why would they have to do that?  HMRC could start doing the calcs now on those who have theirs done and dusted.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I am in this situation, I am a limited company that employs myself and my wife. We can paid via a PAYE salary and dividends. My company is basically in stasis as it’s Market Research and reliant on being face to face. No work currently on the books and and unlikely to have any until things return to ‘normal’.
		
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I guess they have had to draw the line somewhere between small business and self employed but this will cause quite a few I know some issues in the short term at least. Sounds like its time for the business to furlough Mrs road2ruin , hope you pay her well


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			could be tough for some...and it's not as if you can claim UC and ask for an early payment of that if you are going to get income 'support' in June that is backdated. 

Maybe ask for an extension to an existing overdraft facility - or stick it all on a credit card...
		
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Overdraft preferable as you should be able to show your Bank what will be received from last 3 years’ accounts and probably advise HMRC to send it direct to the Bank


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Both of us are directors of the company. Me with 85% and her with 15%. I'm not sure if we operate a PAYE scheme or not. The accountant set it all up for me and I just do what he tells me to do.
		
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Are you paid a monthly wage and/or dividends from the company?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			When should it have been submitted please?
		
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HMRC had given him until end April to do it in any case as he hadn't registered as a Sole Trader until end January.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is the June date based upon HMRC waiting 4 weeks for those having not done a return yet?  Why would they have to do that?  HMRC could start doing the calcs now on those who have theirs done and dusted.
		
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No not at all, the two arent linked at all I dont think

The 8 weeks is how long they think theyll need to get everything in place, calculate and pay several million people. The fact that there is this delay is allowing them to offer a period of grace to those who havent submitted I expect


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## road2ruin (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			I guess they have had to draw the line somewhere between small business and self employed but this will cause quite a few I know some issues in the short term at least. Sounds like its time for the business to furlough Mrs road2ruin , hope you pay her well 

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Sadly not, she’s paid the tax free allowance so won’t really make much of a difference. Looks like we’re in the group of no particular help and we’ll just have to hope there is a business left to go back to


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Sadly not, she’s paid the tax free allowance so won’t really make much of a difference. Looks like we’re in the group of no particular help and we’ll just have to hope there is a business left to go back to
		
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Sorry to hear


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			Are you paid a monthly wage and/or dividends from the company?
		
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Yes. We get a monthly wage and then get dividends every 3 to 4 months depending on how much work I've been doing.


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## fundy (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes. We get a monthly wage and then get dividends every 3 to 4 months depending on how much work I've been doing.
		
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the monthly wage will be the PAYE system


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			the monthly wage will be the PAYE system
		
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Thanks.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

And as with IR35, contractors get the royal shaft again. Simple lack of understanding of how the system operates. 
I have no job now because of Covid-19 and now no income. Nice one you tory *****.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			could be tough for some...and it's not as if you can claim UC and ask for an early payment of that if you are going to get income 'support' in June that is backdated.

Maybe ask for an extension to an existing overdraft facility - or stick it all on a credit card...
		
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I understood that you could apply for UC and claim the taxable grant To be paid in June. The taxable grant will be taken into account as part of earnings for next year.

also if you claim UC you will be paid within a few days instead of waiting 5weeks.


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			when you say self employed do you mean youre the director of your own limited company?

If so this is the poignant part from the limited info available

"those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes."
		
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Will be a challenge for those people who have chosen to form a Ltd company and pay themselves a low salary (reduced NI) and 'taxed at source) like many TV personnel etc.

Also interesting for those with 'cash' businesses with 'two sets' of accounts !!


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			No not at all, the two arent linked at all I dont think

The 8 weeks is how long they think theyll need to get everything in place, calculate and pay several million people. The fact that there is this delay is allowing them to offer a period of grace to those who havent submitted I expect
		
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I think it is also to allow HMRC to do some fraud checks as 'some' SE fly close to the wind in their registered earnings so they will be X-checking with VaT and bank records before paying - entirely correct as it 'public/taxpayers' money.


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Thanks. 

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IR35 is merely a classification system which you are in or out. 

If its been a convenient way for you and your 'employer' to avoid costs/tax then that's the risk of using the system. It has been under review by HMRC for several years because it has been abused by some to avoid tax and NI. If you were booked and paid via an agency then you may have a route to claim but I suspect its a nightmare.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Will be a challenge for those people who have chosen to form a Ltd company and pay themselves a low salary (reduced NI) and 'taxed at source) like many TV personnel etc.

Also interesting for those with 'cash' businesses with 'two sets' of accounts !!
		
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Tough nuts to them. They've played games to avoid tax, they can't have it both ways.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Will be a challenge for those people who have chosen to form a Ltd company and pay themselves a low salary (reduced NI) and 'taxed at source) like many TV personnel etc.

Also interesting for those with 'cash' businesses with 'two sets' of accounts !!
		
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I think this is going to be me, I’m SE but trading through a limited co and am a sole director, so pay myself the highest monthly allowance I can get away with, hence my NI doesn’t usually kick in until month 11, which I’ve just paid, so I believe I can only claim 80% of that max monthly allowance, but it’s something I suppose!

 I can defer my VAT quarter though, which is a help but people need to be mindful it’s a deferment, youve still got file your accounts and pay in the future! 

There’s no free lunch.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			I think this is going to be me, I’m SE but trading through a limited co and am a sole director, *so pay myself the highest monthly allowance I can get away with*, hence my NI doesn’t usually kick in until month 11, which I’ve just paid, so I believe I can only claim 80% of that max monthly allowance, but it’s something I suppose!

I can defer my VAT quarter though, which is a help but people need to be mindful it’s a deferment, youve still got file your accounts and pay in the future!

There’s no free lunch.
		
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Tax avoidance? 😆😆


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tough nuts to them. They've played games to avoid tax, they can't have it both ways.
		
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Again, complete misunderstanding of how it works. My total tax bill for my "company" which is basically me, was £47k last year. When factoring personal tax, corp tax and VAT. 
The div end tax and lower PAYE payment is to avoid getting hit with a double whammy of high Corp and high personal tac against a backdrop of getting zero employment rights and holiday/sick pay. 

Show me many other people that paid just shy of 50 grand taxes last year.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Tax avoidance? 😆😆
		
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Nothing wrong with that. It's evasion where the problems are not avoidance.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Tax avoidance? 😆😆
		
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I don’t need to pay myself a high monthly wage, I’ll pay enough corporation tax to make up for what they can’t get their hands on sooner 😏


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nothing wrong with that. It's evasion where the problems are not avoidance. 

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Aye, the likes of Amazon are Ok to do it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 26, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Again, complete misunderstanding of how it works. My total tax bill for my "company" which is basically me, was £47k last year. When factoring personal tax, corp tax and VAT. 
The div end tax and lower PAYE payment is to avoid getting hit with a double whammy of high Corp and high personal tac against a backdrop of getting zero employment rights and holiday/sick pay. 

Show me many other people that paid just shy of 50 grand taxes last year.
		
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Ultimately it depends on what you earn. If your income is large then obviously so is your tax bill.

I'm pleased you are genuine with your tax but unfortunately plenty are not. Drdel touched on those who are not and I agree with him. I see it too much and it annoys me.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 26, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Again, complete misunderstanding of how it works. My total tax bill for my "company" which is basically me, was £47k last year. When factoring personal tax, corp tax and VAT.
The div end tax and lower PAYE payment is to avoid getting hit with a double whammy of high Corp and high personal tac against a backdrop of getting zero employment rights and holiday/sick pay.

Show me many other people that paid just shy of 50 grand taxes last year.
		
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Expect you MUST have had reasonable earnings though!

Hard work reaps the due rewards.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Expect you MUST have had reasonable earnings though!

Hard work reaps the due rewards.
		
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Not really. People's  perception of the contract market is usually way off reality. By the time I have paid my own pension, holiday and set aside for possible sick pay I earn no more than a usual Business Analyst but with more responsibility. 
And that's only 25 days holiday.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately it depends on what you earn. If your income is large then obviously so is your tax bill.

I'm pleased you are genuine with your tax but unfortunately plenty are not. Drdel touched on those who are not and I agree with him. I see it too much and it annoys me.
		
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I personally know hundreds of contractors and the vast, vast majority are above board. Again there is this perception that everyone that's a contractor must be a rogue fleecing the system.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately it depends on what you earn. If your income is large then obviously so is your tax bill.

I'm pleased you are genuine with your tax but unfortunately plenty are not. Drdel touched on those who are not and I agree with him. I see it too much and it annoys me.
		
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Whilst the likes of Amazon and even Jacob Rees Mogg’s company  getting away without paying £0 Corporation Tax. Disgusting.


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately it depends on what you earn. If your income is large then obviously so is your tax bill.

I'm pleased you are genuine with your tax but unfortunately plenty are not. Drdel touched on those who are not and I agree with him. I see it too much and it annoys me.
		
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I think there are quite a few self employed who are poorly advised by accountants who think its clever to tell clients how much they can save without mentioning that it is pretty easy to cross check against the averages for various businesses and pick up anomalies.

I believe the Chancellor has an opportunity to 'level' up the PAYE and self assessment mechanisms.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think there are quite a few self employed who are poorly advised by accountants who think its clever to tell clients how much they can save without mentioning that it is pretty easy to cross check against the averages for various businesses and pick up anomalies.

I believe the Chancellor has an opportunity to 'level' up the PAYE and self assessment mechanisms.
		
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Will he level up the rights that go with that? I doubt it. As Covid has admirably demonstrated, we are NOT disguised employees of we are terminated and permanent staff in the same business unit are not.


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			And that's only 25 days holiday.
		
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So you're not self employed then.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Aye, the likes of Amazon are Ok to do it.
		
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This where it annoys me. Three or four years ago my limited company paid more UK corporation tax for the year than Amazon and Starbucks combined. I reduce my tax liability as much as possible within the rules as they are but would be happy to pay a higher tax bill if the multi-nationals were also playing by the same rules.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So you're not self employed then.
		
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Another expert. Superb, internet is full of them.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Another expert. Superb, internet is full of them.
		
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You know what they say, ‘a little knowledge....’


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## GreiginFife (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			You know what they say, ‘a little knowledge....’
		
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Not really sure where I said I was self employed but these experts eh? Glad I live amongst them.


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Not really sure where I said I was self employed but these experts eh? Glad I live amongst them.
		
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I didn't read the rest of your posts, all I read was 25 days holiday, which lead me to believe you weren't self employed, and if that's the case, then I was correct, what's the issue ?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 27, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I didn't read the rest of your posts, all I read was 25 days holiday, which lead me to believe you weren't self employed, and if that's the case, then I was correct, what's the issue ?
		
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So you're saying self employed don't take holidays? Aye, ok wang chung.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I personally know hundreds of contractors and the vast, vast majority are above board. Again there is this perception that everyone that's a contractor must be a rogue fleecing the system.
		
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I quite agree with you. I actually would not be putting contractors in the questionable bracket. Contractors have to put in invoices to be paid, invoices are a trail. Payment will be by transfer, again a trail. Once you have a trail the abuses drop dramatically.

The entertainment 'contractors', arts, sports etc that get paid not by salary but to a company when in reality they are employees, that is a loophole that the govt have been trying to close and I agree with them.

True contractors, who inevitably bounce around with multiple clients, different beast.

I think we are actually on the same hymn sheet here when you scratch the surface. Both have businesses, both pay our taxes fairly. I'm just not going to shed tears for those who have hidden money from the taxman and are now complaining when it costs them in govt support at this moment.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Whilst the likes of Amazon and even Jacob Rees Mogg’s company  getting away without paying £0 Corporation Tax. Disgusting.
		
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I could have written word for word Colchester's post. I also remember that year, it was disgusting and I quote it often. Equally disgusting is the number of large corporations who negotiate their tax bill with HMRC 🤬🤬. How the heck does that work?

All of the tax not paid, that is a doctor, a nurse, a ventilator, a teacher, police officer, social worker, care worker etc not employed or being trained. It's serious stuff at all levels, the one man band or the mega corporation.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 27, 2020)

I'm in the same boat, Ltd company of a building surveying company and I'm the sole director. All our invoicing is transparent, I pay all our Corp Tax and VAT which isn't an insignificant amount as some would believe. Out of my dividend comes any sick or leave I take during the year and there's also the strain of starting each year on zero and not knowing what work will come in.
It's a way of working I've been trying to move away from as I find it too stressful and as business has tanked for me due to coronavirus the lack of government support could well be hastening that departure.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I quite agree with you. I actually would not be putting contractors in the questionable bracket. Contractors have to put in invoices to be paid, invoices are a trail. Payment will be by transfer, again a trail. Once you have a trail the abuses drop dramatically.

The entertainment 'contractors', arts, sports etc that get paid not by salary but to a company when in reality they are employees, that is a loophole that the govt have been trying to close and I agree with them.

True contractors, who inevitably bounce around with multiple clients, different beast.

I think we are actually on the same hymn sheet here when you scratch the surface. Both have businesses, both pay our taxes fairly. I'm just not going to shed tears for those who have hidden money from the taxman and are now complaining when it costs them in govt support at this moment.
		
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IR35 was getting strict on this but there was one loser and that was the contractor. You can be sympathetic or not but most were looking at a significant wage reduction as their hourly rate was not going to be increased to compensate. The contract market seemed to freeze with most looking at permanent positions.
When I priced for a contract, and when I converted I worked on what annual salary they had or I could ask. I would then divide by 46 weeks and that was my basic start point. Take into account private health care and pension contributions at full whack. So when I was bringing contractors back into the permanent world, I would offer less knowing that there were benefits that took them over and above their existing situation. 
You do get the poorly negotiated contracts, and these are a nightmare. These are the ones that are over and above a reasonable rate and significantly higher than your internal specialists, meaning you could not offer a permanent position offering that wage. With those I would look to an initial discussion, and then investigate the skill level. Eventually you just end up not renewing the contract as they are bad for internal moral. 
As most people get used to a wage and benefits


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I'm in the same boat, Ltd company of a building surveying company and I'm the sole director. All our invoicing is transparent, I pay all our Corp Tax and VAT which isn't an insignificant amount as some would believe. Out of my dividend comes any sick or leave I take during the year and there's also the strain of starting each year on zero and not knowing what work will come in.
It's a way of working I've been trying to move away from as I find it too stressful and as business has tanked for me due to coronavirus the lack of government support could well be hastening that departure.
		
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My wife is part of a 'women in business' group. They have a FB page, closed, which is very active right now. A lot of the talk, both from them and also advisors who come on and help, is about using this time to re-evaluate your business. Do you actually make a profit? Do you make sufficient profit? Which customers give you sufficient profit, which do not? Which customers give you too much hassle for the money involved? Do you enjoy what you do? Is it time to call it a day on your business?

You will not be alone in looking at how you work, this is a real benchmark moment. We have toyed with making some key changes to our business and we will be using this quieter time to look through product lines and customers that we might drop, possible downsizing our premises, staffing etc. Council work is starting to look quite appealing right now, steady as you go........


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My wife is part of a 'women in business' group. They have a FB page, closed, which is very active right now. A lot of the talk, both from them and also advisors who come on and help, is about using this time to re-evaluate your business. Do you actually make a profit? Do you make sufficient profit? Which customers give you sufficient profit, which do not? Which customers give you too much hassle for the money involved? Do you enjoy what you do? Is it time to call it a day on your business?

You will not be alone in looking at how you work, this is a real benchmark moment. We have toyed with making some key changes to our business and we will be using this quieter time to look through product lines and customers that we might drop, possible downsizing our premises, staffing etc. Council work is starting to look quite appealing right now, steady as you go........

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The irony of this situation is I had already made the decision to move back into Life Sciences and was 90% through the process of selling the business which has now gone down the tubes. Independence and Brexit have taken it's toll on the business and me, I never really adapted to Self Employment, you're either stressed because you have too much work coming in or stressed because it's gone quiet. 
What I don't understand is why the government has cut us adrift in this situation. What's their thinking?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The irony of this situation is I had already made the decision to move back into Life Sciences and was 90% through the process of selling the business which has now gone down the tubes. Independence and Brexit have taken it's toll on the business and me, I never really adapted to Self Employment, you're either stressed because you have too much work coming in or stressed because it's gone quiet.
What I don't understand is why the government has cut us adrift in this situation. What's their thinking?
		
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It is tough having your own business. We were out a month or so ago with friends and they asked me what I would do if I didn't have the business? I replied bus driver at the airport taking people from long stay to the terminal. I turn up, do my job, go home, no worries, take holidays without worrying and when I want. My wife laughed, she thought I was joking. I haven't the heart to tell her otherwise. Brexit has been a 3 year drain, this twists the knife. Very hard to switch off, although easier when all is going well.

I think a section of businesses are inevitably slipping through the net, it is always the way. They are making policy under pressure and on the hoof, tough to do that. I think most of what they have done is very good, we will just not benefit. We miss the rates freebie as our premises are too large. They are not too large out of choice, there was no middle option when we grew and had to move. We have empty space but that tips us over the edge. We are not retail so no £10k freebie. We can furlough our staff, we have done as it is not safe for them to work here and keep the 2m distance, but that is it. Not a lot we can do about it. Can you furlough yourself? Have you looked at that? It would mean that you could not work at all during that time so it depends if you have any work at all right now.


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2020)

So Martin Lewis tweeted yesterday.....

CONFIRMED self-employed limited company directors CAN be furloughed as employees on their PAYE element, even if theyre sole employee.

Technically they can't then work for the firm, but can continue to perform their statutory obligations as directors eg official legal filings etc


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## Smiffy (Mar 28, 2020)




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## User20204 (Mar 28, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			So you're saying self employed don't take holidays? Aye, ok wang chung.
		
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They don't take 25 days, that's for sure, doubt if I've had that in the past 3 years.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 28, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			They don't take 25 days, that's for sure, doubt if I've had that in the past 3 years.
		
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Whoopty for you. But you still take holidays, no? Any day not working but not sick is a leave day (aka holiday) no? Again, ok cup cake. 

People can take as many leave/unpaid days that they like, it doesn't change their status.


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## Jon321 (Mar 28, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			They don't take 25 days, that's for sure, doubt if I've had that in the past 3 years.
		
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I'm self employed and take over 25 days. Why would You say they don’t. One of the benefits of it for me.


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2020)

Jon321 said:



			I'm self employed and take over 25 days. Why would You say they don’t. One of the benefits of it for me.
		
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I’m the opposite, having run the business for 12 or so years I miss the allocated holiday where you switch off and you’re not expected to do anything. I rarely have those days although the flexibility of choosing what to do and when plus the time I get with family is the upside.


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## User20204 (Mar 28, 2020)

Jon321 said:



			I'm self employed and take over 25 days. Why would You say they don’t. One of the benefits of it for me.
		
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Well lucky you, you must be earning plenty to do so.



GreiginFife said:



			Whoopty for you. But you still take holidays, no? Any day not working but not sick is a leave day (aka holiday) no? Again, ok cup cake.

People can take as many leave/unpaid days that they like, it doesn't change their status.
		
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I'm not exactly sure why you're being so rude with your replies because I question the days off. Anyway, if my week is a 6 day working week, no I don't class the other day as a "holiday" that would be absurd.


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## fundy (Apr 9, 2020)

Quick reminder for anyone wanting to claim who still hasnt submitted their 2019 tax return youve 2 weeks left until the deadline. Still happy to help/advise if anyone needs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2020)

fundy said:



			Quick reminder for anyone wanting to claim who still hasnt submitted their 2019 tax return youve 2 weeks left until the deadline. Still happy to help/advise if anyone needs
		
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My son was speaking with HMRC this morning and he is adamant that he was told the deadline has been extended from 23rd April into May. He is waiting for an Activation Code to come through and this morning was told it would be with him within 10 days - he expressed concern about getting it done before the 23rd. But he was told not to worry - the date is being extended.  Though there will still be time with the two weeks you mention - it'll be tight.  I cant see anything on-line about the further extension he claims he was told about - so I am not sure I trust what he says...  Maybe they have in consideration of postal delivery delays.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My son was speaking with HMRC this morning and he is adamant that he was told the deadline has been extended from 23rd April into May. He is waiting for an Activation Code to come through and this morning was told it would be with him within 10 days - he expressed concern about getting it done before the 23rd. But he was told not to worry - the date is being extended.  Though there will still be time with the two weeks you mention - it'll be tight.  I cant see anything on-line about the further extension he claims he was told about - so I am not sure I trust what he says...  Maybe they have in consideration of postal delivery delays.
		
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Have you got access to a fax? I know its 2020 like but they used to only send them same day either by fax or post.


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## fundy (Apr 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My son was speaking with HMRC this morning and he is adamant that he was told the deadline has been extended from 23rd April into May. He is waiting for an Activation Code to come through and this morning was told it would be with him within 10 days - he expressed concern about getting it done before the 23rd. But he was told not to worry - the date is being extended.  Though there will still be time with the two weeks you mention - it'll be tight.  I cant see anything on-line about the further extension he claims he was told about - so I am not sure I trust what he says...  Maybe they have in consideration of postal delivery delays.
		
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certainly not seen anything online, thankfully one of the ones I was waiting for arrived this morning and is working fine, now to wait the 72 hour delay for having to file an earlier year return too!

hopefully he gets it in time


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2020)

quick reminder youve less than 48 hrs if youve not submitted the 18/19 tax return and are looking for a grant


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			quick reminder youve less than 48 hrs if youve not submitted the 18/19 tax return and are looking for a grant
		
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Aren't tax returns due by the 31st January ?


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Aren't tax returns due by the 31st January ?
		
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they are but anyone who hadnt submitted who wants a grant under the self employed scheme due to coronavirus was given until 23rd April to get it it in


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			they are but anyone who hadnt submitted who wants a grant under the self employed scheme due to coronavirus was given until 23rd April to get it it in
		
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I assume they were still be fined for late returns ?


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I assume they were still be fined for late returns ?
		
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They probably will be, but that £100 fine isnt what my post was about, it was offering help for anyone who may need help in claiming upto £7,500 grant that they may need to get through the current crisis whilst they arent able to work/trade/practise


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			quick reminder youve less than 48 hrs if youve not submitted the 18/19 tax return and are looking for a grant
		
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All done, dusted and submitted...of course he's currently skint waiting for first UC payment to come through, so I'll have to pay his £32.60 Income Tax bill for that year.  But I can handle that  Many thanks for your support Sir!


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## fundy (May 6, 2020)

You should now be able to log into your HMRC account to see whether you are eligible for help under the scheme and when you will be able to process your claim (seems to be 15th May for most), they may also ask for you to confirm contact details etc


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## Fish (May 6, 2020)

fundy said:



			You should now be able to log into your HMRC account to see whether you are eligible for help under the scheme and when you will be able to process your claim (seems to be 15th May for most), they may also ask for you to confirm contact details etc
		
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Need UTR and Gateway numbers, if not registered with Gateway, they need to do so first.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 6, 2020)

Unfortunately for me, I started a new self employment on 1 May 2019 so fall outside the scheme. Haven't worked since middle of March and not likely to for the next couple of months at least.


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Unfortunately for me, I started a new self employment on 1 May 2019 so fall outside the scheme. Haven't worked since middle of March and not likely to for the next couple of months at least.
		
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Have you submitted a tax return? For 19/20 year? If not, I suggest you do asap.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 6, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Have you submitted a tax return? For 19/20 year? If not, I suggest you do asap.
		
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Not yet, but HMRC have said that they are basing it on the 2018/19 return for now and that I don't qualify.


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Not yet, but HMRC have said that they are basing it on the 2018/19 return for now and that I don't qualify.
		
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Even so you maybe entitled to a rebate, better in your arse pocket then theirs.


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## moogie (May 6, 2020)

fundy said:



			You should now be able to log into your HMRC account to see whether you are eligible for help under the scheme and when you will be able to process your claim (seems to be 15th May for most), they may also ask for you to confirm contact details etc
		
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Have just finished doing just that

I Can apply from 8am on 14th may
Let's see how it goes......


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

moogie said:



			Have just finished doing just that

I Can apply from 8am on 14th may
Let's see how it goes......
		
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Mine says 8am 13th May, at least its all staggered and not a free for all


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## moogie (May 6, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Mine says 8am 13th May, at least its all staggered and not a free for all
		
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Defenitely 👍
Had visions of their bloody website crashing or something with the avalanche of applications....!! 

With a bit of luck
They may even know what they're doing eh....


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

moogie said:



			Defenitely 👍
Had visions of their bloody website crashing or something with the avalanche of applications....!!

With a bit of luck
They may even know what they're doing eh....
		
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From my little dealing with the HMRC, in fairness whenever I’ve done my tax return, its always been spot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

This is actually rather hypothetical.  

If I were self-employed and my work has disappeared - how does HMRC *know *that my income has gone; and so how do I get help under the government scheme - I did a 2018/19 SA Tax return.

Then if I get government support based upon my 2018/19 SA Tax Return what happens if my income has not now actually stopped and I am able to work?

How will HMRC know that I am getting an income...

I have a suspicious mind - not about anyone posting here btw.


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## moogie (May 6, 2020)

I'd very much doubt that there's anybody out there,  in self employed work,  that hasn't been hit hard by this current situation

This money that anybody gets will be declared on 2020/2021 tax return,  as income,  so is liable for tax

Hope that eases your suspicious mind a little,  I don't know what else to say really


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## fundy (May 6, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Mine says 8am 13th May, at least its all staggered and not a free for all
		
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winners all over the place Stu lol


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

fundy said:



			winners all over the place Stu lol
		
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As you’re fully aware, there’s a 1st fence falller just around the corner to bring me crashing back down to earth😂😂😂


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## Lord Tyrion (May 6, 2020)

moogie said:



			Defenitely 👍
Had visions of their bloody website crashing or something with the avalanche of applications....!!

With a bit of luck
They may even know what they're doing eh....
		
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To be fair to them the furlough scheme for limited companies has worked very well,  the website, payment etc all went smoothly. I expected that system to crash repeatedly but it stood up very impressively. I wouldn't worry about it getting overloaded for your slot, they seem to be on top of things, fair play 👍


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## Stuart_C (May 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is actually rather hypothetical.

If I were self-employed and my work has disappeared - how does HMRC *know *that my income has gone; and so how do I get help under the government scheme - I did a 2018/19 SA Tax return.

Then if I get government support based upon my 2018/19 SA Tax Return what happens if my income has not now actually stopped and I am able to work?

How will HMRC know that I am getting an income...

I have a suspicious mind - not about anyone posting here btw.
		
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You need to read the rules re this grant. You can still work and earn unlike the Furlough scheme. This payment will be declared in next years tax return and taxed.

Prior to lockdown I had over £30k‘s worth of work booked in between March and June which would’ve took me right upto beginning of July. 1 has been cancelled for the foreseeable, Another is waiting to be started.

Since lockdown I’ve done a handful of jobs, emergencies only though, leaks, gas leaks and repairing boilers. All of this will be declared. 

There’s no such thing as a free lunch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			You need to read the rules re this grant. You can still work and earn unlike the Furlough scheme. This payment will be declared in next years tax return and taxed.

Prior to lockdown I had over £30k‘s worth of work booked in between March and June which would’ve took me right upto beginning of July. 1 has been cancelled for the foreseeable, Another is waiting to be started.

Since lockdown I’ve done a handful of jobs, emergencies only though, leaks, gas leaks and repairing boilers. All of this will be declared.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
		
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Ah right - so for the self-employed the government support is deemed income and will be included by HMRC in the individual's tax return for 2020/21...?


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## moogie (May 7, 2020)

Correct....... 👏👏


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## fundy (May 15, 2020)

Most shouldve been able to claim their grant on HMRCs site by now, its a pretty straightforward process

Have got one friend to challenge the amount of their grant, that could be an interesting challenge.


If youve not claimed you should be able to do so now or by tomorrow morning at the latest and should have the money in 6 working days


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## Imurg (May 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			Most shouldve been able to claim their grant on HMRCs site by now, its a pretty straightforward process

Have got one friend to challenge the amount of their grant, that could be an interesting challenge.


If youve not claimed you should be able to do so now or by tomorrow morning at the latest and should have the money in 6 working days
		
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I've done mine but they did say they would contact us - I've heard nothing from them other than what I've found myself.
I went on the site to try to find a " if you haven't heard from us do this", went through the process of signing in and it said Make your claim.
So I did
But I suspect some may still be waiting to be contacted rather than finding out....
Still, should have some money by the end of next week


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## moogie (May 15, 2020)

Yes
Done mine yesterday
That was the date I was given the week before on gov.uk website 

Easy process
Instant response showing amount you will receive too
All very simple and painless to do

As tesco say........ Every little helps

Though it goes nowhere towards the drop in revenue I'm currently working for


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## Stuart_C (May 15, 2020)

I done mine on Wednesday, surprised at how easy and quick it was. No more than 5 mins in total.


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## fundy (May 21, 2020)

Just a quick note, if there is anyone who has claimed, but who started being self employed in the last 3 years, I would double check your calculation. They are supposed to work out a monthly average but on one I helped for a friend they treated a part year as a full year reducing his overall monthly average and granting him almost £1,000 less than was correct. They have agreed to correct, so worth double checking you get what you expect to


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## fundy (May 29, 2020)

So the government have announced there will be a further 3 months support to cover June, July and August that youll be able to claim for as a lump sum in August.

The only real change seems to be a small reduction from 80% to 70% of profits upto a maximum of £2,190 a mth of £6,570 for the 3 months


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## Imurg (May 29, 2020)

Better than a poke in eye with a sharp stick...
Getting anything out of our Government Agency Overlords is impossibly hard and we've got no idea when we're allowed back to work.
Worse thing is - they haven't either.....could be a long summer playing golf.....


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			So the government have announced there will be a further 3 months support to cover June, July and August that youll be able to claim for as a lump sum in August.

The only real change seems to be a small reduction from 80% to 70% of profits upto a maximum of £2,190 a mth of £6,570 for the 3 months
		
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Is there anything stopping people claiming it then operating fully as normal? I know he said u can work but if say u brought in the same would it just be morals stopping someone


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## fundy (May 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there anything stopping people claiming it then operating fully as normal? I know he said u can work but if say u brought in the same would it just be morals stopping someone
		
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It says its up to the individual to confirm they meet the criteria so yes pretty much down to your morals if earning full whack and still claiming albeit full details not been published


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## Lazkir (May 29, 2020)

About 80% of my work has disappeared, so this is pretty much bang in line for me. I have to be honest though, I've not only enjoyed all the downtime, but it's also led me to re-asses the way I'll do things in the future. 
Money is nice, but I've found that a good lifestyle even with less is better!


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## Imurg (May 29, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			About 80% of my work has disappeared, so this is pretty much bang in line for me. I have to be honest though, I've not only enjoyed all the downtime, but it's also led me to re-asses the way I'll do things in the future.
Money is nice, but I've found that a good lifestyle even with less is better!
		
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With you there...exactly the same thoughts.


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## andycap (May 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			With you there...exactly the same thoughts.
		
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I applied and got the grant , i have kept working , but its very insecure , if  something is deemed to be unable to be done with social distancing measures my work could finish tomorrow , and for that reason i will apply for the next installment. I very much believe that you get nothing for nothing  and this will all have to be paid back , maybe through inreased NI contributions or income tax increases , these will happen wheather i take it or not ! my view is that i would rather be looking at money , than looking for it !


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## Imurg (May 29, 2020)

I haven't been able to work for 73 days....and no indication when that might change....might make it all the way to 100.
Fortunately, financially, we're ok. Got the grant and will be applying for the next one too.
When test/track/trace comes in we could get pinged many times and have to spend more weeks in isolation.
Thank God the golf courses are open...


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2020)

Is it too late to apply? I wasn't going to bother as we were ok financially but now the car has gone bang the extra cash would come in handy.


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## fundy (May 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is it too late to apply? I wasn't going to bother as we were ok financially but now the car has gone bang the extra cash would come in handy.
		
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If youve done a 2018/19 tax return already then no you can still apply until July 13th for the first grant and you dont need to have applied for the first grant to apply for the second grant

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...pport-scheme-and-confirms-furlough-next-steps


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			If youve done a 2018/19 tax return already then no you can still apply until July 13th for the first grant and you dont need to have applied for the first grant to apply for the second grant

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...pport-scheme-and-confirms-furlough-next-steps

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Thanks for that. I'll have a look in the morning and apply for the first grant and then make a decision on the second one.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			If youve done a 2018/19 tax return already then no you can still apply until July 13th for the first grant and you dont need to have applied for the first grant to apply for the second grant

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...pport-scheme-and-confirms-furlough-next-steps

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Just had a look and unfortunately it looks as though I can't make a claim due to this bit....

"You should not claim the grant if you’re a limited company or operating a trade through a trust."

I run my business through a limited company so looks like I'm out of luck.


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## Mudball (May 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just had a look and unfortunately it looks as though I can't make a claim due to this bit....

"You should not claim the grant if you’re a limited company or operating a trade through a trust."

I run my business through a limited company so looks like I'm out of luck.
		
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As I understand.. If you are a limited co, you won’t qualify for Self Employed scheme... but you can ‘furlough’ yourself and get some support. I know a few people who have done that. Get advice. Good luck


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## road2ruin (May 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just had a look and unfortunately it looks as though I can't make a claim due to this bit....

"You should not claim the grant if you’re a limited company or operating a trade through a trust."

I run my business through a limited company so looks like I'm out of luck.
		
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I furloughed myself and also applied for the ‘Bounce Back Loan’. I’d have a look at the loan as the terms are very favourable albeit not like the grants that others have got.


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## fundy (Jul 2, 2020)

2nd grant can be claimed from August the 17th it seems


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## fundy (Aug 17, 2020)

HMRC system is now open for 2nd grant claims, when you log in it will tell you which day you can claim from (some will be today some for other days this week it seems)


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

For those it will affect, the scheme has been extended for winter.

It will cover 2 seperate 3 month periods, starting 1st November and 1st February, you'll be able to claim 40% of previous earnings, capped at £3,750 for each claim, and the first claim should be available from Dec 14th on the HMRC site

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...loyment-income-support-scheme-grant-extension


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			For those it will affect, the scheme has been extended for winter.

It will cover 2 seperate 3 month periods, starting 1st November and 1st February, you'll be able to claim 40% of previous earnings, capped at £3,750 for each claim, and the first claim should be available from Dec 14th on the HMRC site

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...loyment-income-support-scheme-grant-extension

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With the light of lockdown, they are now increasing the 40% to 80% for the period of lockdown, will post better details when I can


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			With the light of lockdown, they are now increasing the 40% to 80% for the period of lockdown, will post better details when I can
		
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OK, the first of the two 3 month claims is being increased to a total of 55% (roughly the average on 80%, 40%, 40%) so a max of £5,160 for the 3 mths, and the claim date has been brought forward to November 30th, the 2nd 3 mths is still planned to be 40% to a max of £3,750


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## Mudball (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			With the light of lockdown, they are now increasing the 40% to 80% for the period of lockdown, will post better details when I can
		
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What i had not seen before was that there is a grant for Feb & March 2021 coming
_The Self-Employment Income Support Scheme Grant Extension provides critical support to the self-employed in the form of two grants, each available for three month periods covering November 2020 to January 2021 and February 2021 to April 2021. _

Source:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...loyment-income-support-scheme-grant-extension


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

If I am right in my understanding - is it still the case that where you work part employed and part self-employed then your self-employed income must be more than half (or whatever it was) of your total income? 

Has anything changed if you have lost your employed job due to the virus, but your self-employed work would still be there were it not for the lockdown and other non-lockdown restrictions?  In other words - current income would be 100% self-employed but due to restrictions there is no work.  Previously self-employed income was below the % threshold to qualify for a self-employed grant.  I think a lot of 'freelance' workers are and were so impacted.

Not thinking there will be any support outside of UC as grant entitlement will be assessed on same basis as previous assessment - and so when employed as well as self-employed.


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## fundy (Nov 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What i had not seen before was that there is a grant for Feb & March 2021 coming
_The Self-Employment Income Support Scheme Grant Extension provides critical support to the self-employed in the form of two grants, each available for three month periods covering November 2020 to January 2021 and February 2021 to April 2021. _

Source:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...loyment-income-support-scheme-grant-extension

Click to expand...


was in post 129


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## fundy (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am right in my understanding - is it still the case that where you work part employed and part self-employed then your self-employed income must be more than half (or whatever it was) of your total income?

Has anything changed if you have lost your employed job due to the virus, but your self-employed work would still be there were it not for the lockdown and other non-lockdown restrictions?  In other words - current income would be 100% self-employed but due to restrictions there is no work.  Previously self-employed income was below the % threshold to qualify for a self-employed grant.  I think a lot of 'freelance' workers are and were so impacted.

Not thinking there will be any support outside of UC as grant entitlement will be assessed on same basis as previous assessment - and so when employed as well as self-employed.
		
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As far as I am aware none of the eligibility criteria has changed from the first grant but will have a dig and see if i can find anything


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## fundy (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am right in my understanding - is it still the case that where you work part employed and part self-employed then your self-employed income must be more than half (or whatever it was) of your total income?

Has anything changed if you have lost your employed job due to the virus, but your self-employed work would still be there were it not for the lockdown and other non-lockdown restrictions?  In other words - current income would be 100% self-employed but due to restrictions there is no work.  Previously self-employed income was below the % threshold to qualify for a self-employed grant.  I think a lot of 'freelance' workers are and were so impacted.

Not thinking there will be any support outside of UC as grant entitlement will be assessed on same basis as previous assessment - and so when employed as well as self-employed.
		
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There is nothing in any of the literature that would give me any hope that a claim would be successful, they are very clear that to be able to claim this time round you had to be eligible for the first two grants which is clearly not the case in the above scenario


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## fundy (Nov 5, 2020)

Goalposts moved again, December and January now also at 80% so the third claim with be for 80% upto a maximum of £7,500 for the 3 months  (in the space of a few weeks its gone from 40% to 55% and now to 80%)


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## Stuart_C (Nov 5, 2020)

fundy said:



			Goalposts moved again, December and January now also at 80% so the third claim with be for 80% upto a maximum of £7,500 for the 3 months  (in the space of a few weeks its gone from 40% to 55% and now to 80%)
		
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This money tree is getting bigger and bigger......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			This money tree is getting bigger and bigger......
		
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Unfortunately for many the money tree wasn’t tended for long enough and it’s leaves have all fallen and blown away.


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## fundy (Nov 6, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			This money tree is getting bigger and bigger......
		
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as soon as they extended furlough was always likely to follow, hard to see how it isnt extended until March as furlough has been at 80% now.......


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2020)

HMRC opened the applications for grant 3 today, you shouldve had an email or a message within your account on the hmrc client

Appears that its the same criteria as the first 2 PLUS you have to be able to prove the effect on your business between 1st Nov and 31st Jan, they say you need to keep records to be able to justify the claim (which wasnt required for the first 2)


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## Imurg (Nov 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			HMRC opened the applications for grant 3 today, you shouldve had an email or a message within your account on the hmrc client

Appears that its the same criteria as the first 2 PLUS you have to be able to prove the effect on your business between 1st Nov and 31st Jan, they say you need to keep records to be able to justify the claim (which wasnt required for the first 2)
		
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Does a blank diary count..?


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Does a blank diary count..?

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Pretty sure a link to their own site all you will need Ian


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## fundy (Dec 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			HMRC opened the applications for grant 3 today, you shouldve had an email or a message within your account on the hmrc client

Appears that its the same criteria as the first 2 PLUS you have to be able to prove the effect on your business between 1st Nov and 31st Jan, they say you need to keep records to be able to justify the claim (which wasnt required for the first 2)
		
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Helped someone do theres today. Process very straightforward just requires an extra declaration regarding impact on you business/ability to work and guidance on what evidence you should keep. Should be paid within 6 working days of claiming (likely it may be slightly quicker)

For anyone who is claiming the grants do remember you are going to pay tax/NI on them in your 2020/21 tax return (due for submission in Jan 2022) and if you can make sure you have this put aside


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## Imurg (Dec 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Helped someone do theres today. Process very straightforward just requires an extra declaration regarding impact on you business/ability to work and guidance on what evidence you should keep. Should be paid within 6 working days of claiming (likely it may be slightly quicker)

For anyone who is claiming the grants do remember you are going to pay tax/NI on them in your 2020/21 tax return (due for submission in Jan 2022) and if you can make sure you have this put aside
		
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Mine may hit the bank tomorrow


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2020)

Our lad has applied for an Arts Council Grant - funded by the National Lottery - for freelance professionals who were working in theatres, he'll be hearing the outcome of his application in a couple of days time.  Given the criteria he should qualify - but knowing his (and our) luck his application will be rejected.  But with a bit of faith and hope - and maybe a little bit of 'charity' will come along.


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## Imurg (Jan 13, 2021)

Is there any news on an extension to this.?
Not heard anything and the current one ru s to the end of the month.
Lockdown will be on until mid February at the earliest I expect and could drag on longer...
Anyone heard anything.?


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## Stuart_C (Jan 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Is there any news on an extension to this.?
Not heard anything and the current one ru s to the end of the month.
Lockdown will be on until mid February at the earliest I expect and could drag on longer...
Anyone heard anything.?
		
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There's another 1 to run through to April in line with Furlough.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Is there any news on an extension to this.?
Not heard anything and the current one ru s to the end of the month.
Lockdown will be on until mid February at the earliest I expect and could drag on longer...
Anyone heard anything.?
		
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available to claim in February Ian. What has not been confirmed is the %


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## Imurg (Jan 13, 2021)

Cool...assumed there would be something..must have missed the announcement with all the rushing around I'm doing ...


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			available to claim in February Ian. What has not been confirmed is the %
		
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considering the country will be in lockdown when it starts cant see anyway its not done at 80% again

what will be interesting is if they finally include those who havent been able to claim up until now and/or whether they use the 2019/20 return which is due in by the end of Jan to calculate the basis of profits, most likely wishful thinking on both and it will just be exactly the same

will post the claims date and basis on here once its announced


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## road2ruin (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			what will be interesting is if they finally include those who havent been able to claim up until now and/or whether they use the 2019/20 return which is due in by the end of Jan to calculate the basis of profits, most likely wishful thinking on both and it will just be exactly the same
		
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I read that groups had met the government and discussions had taken place. Whether that leads to anything positive, I’m certainly not holding my breath.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I read that groups had met the government and discussions had taken place. Whether that leads to anything positive, I’m certainly not holding my breath.
		
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I know a lot of people who are hoping but not expecting as you say


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## anotherdouble (Jan 25, 2021)

Just seen on Twitter that Martin Lewis has had it confirmed from treasury that there will be no further announcement regarding 4th self employment grant until after March 3rd budget


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## Stuart_C (Jan 25, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Just seen on Twitter that Martin Lewis has had it confirmed from treasury that there will be no further announcement regarding 4th self employment grant until after March 3rd budget
		
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There's also rumours of it being heavily reduced.....


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## anotherdouble (Jan 25, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			There's also rumours of it being heavily reduced.....
		
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Wouldn’t surprise me fam.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 25, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			There's also rumours of it being heavily reduced.....
		
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I am totally shut down, so it’s lose lose for me, but i will still have a roof over the head and my belly will keep me going for a bit so I can’t complain 👍


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## Imurg (Jan 25, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			I am totally shut down, so it’s lose lose for me, but i will still have a roof over the head and my belly will keep me going for a bit so I can’t complain 👍
		
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Same here.
Only upside is that I'm not spending anything and the Mrs salary keeps everything else going.


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

From todays budget:

4th grant which is February to April, will be on the same basis as previous claims, 80% of last 3 years earnings. This will now include those previously excluded who were newly self employed as long as they have submitted a 2019/2020 tax return by last night (If anyone is in this category and isnt sure how to go about claiming or what they will receive feel free to ask me and I will help where i can)

Will be a future 5th grant that will be for May to September but you will get 80% assuming your turnover is down by more than 30%. If its not you will only get 30% (It did seem like it will be 3mths money for 5 months period though, will clarify when the full details are published)


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2021)

fundy said:



			From todays budget:

4th grant which is February to April, will be on the same basis as previous claims, 80% of last 3 years earnings. This will now include those previously excluded who were newly self employed as long as they have submitted a 2019/2020 tax return by last night (If anyone is in this category and isnt sure how to go about claiming or what they will receive feel free to ask me and I will help where i can)

Will be a future 5th grant that will be for May to September but you will get 80% assuming your turnover is down by more than 30%. If its not you will only get 30% (It did seem like it will be 3mths money for 5 months period though, will clarify when the full details are published)
		
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I am resigned to not ever receiving any help from the Chancellor, I've made peace with that however what really does anger me is his insistence on using the phrase "We will continue doing whatever it takes to support British people and businesses". He has supports a lot of people and businesses however there are still a significant number that he has completely ignored. Just stop with the soundbites as it's annoying to hear however great you've been at supporting 'all' people and businesses.


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## Mudball (Mar 3, 2021)

Speaking to a self employed friend.  Work dried up and so the SE Grant was god sent. However, very industrious, so kept working albeit lower takings.  Adding 3 grants + work, getting close to an 2019 earnings. So she is in a bit of a moral dilemma.  Should she apply to the grant.  Highly likely wont qualify for the May payout.  

disclosure - my view is to apply. She is eligible and money in the bank will be useful esp since she does not know which way the rest of the year would go.. 

Is there a moral dilemma or fairly straightforward?


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2021)

Corporation Tax - Tick
Dividend Tax - Tick 
Self Assessment Tax - Tick

End of year accounts certified by a reputable accountancy company for the last 15 years now but apparently I'm not to be trusted, I'm too much of a fraud risk. I'm convinced his aim to get everyone onto PAYE ASAP. Also watch me having to pay 'my fair share' of tax to ensure the deficit is reduced.


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## road2ruin (Mar 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Speaking to a self employed friend.  Work dried up and so the SE Grant was god sent. However, very industrious, so kept working albeit lower takings.  Adding 3 grants + work, getting close to an 2019 earnings. So she is in a bit of a moral dilemma.  Should she apply to the grant.  Highly likely wont qualify for the May payout. 

disclosure - my view is to apply. She is eligible and money in the bank will be useful esp since she does not know which way the rest of the year would go..

Is there a moral dilemma or fairly straightforward?
		
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My view is that she could take it, tax increases in the coming years will affect her and you never know what the next 12 months will involve so if the money is on offer.......


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Speaking to a self employed friend.  Work dried up and so the SE Grant was god sent. However, very industrious, so kept working albeit lower takings.  Adding 3 grants + work, getting close to an 2019 earnings. So she is in a bit of a moral dilemma.  Should she apply to the grant.  Highly likely wont qualify for the May payout. 

disclosure - my view is to apply. She is eligible and money in the bank will be useful esp since she does not know which way the rest of the year would go..

Is there a moral dilemma or fairly straightforward?
		
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Did they not say at first time that you can claim but still work?


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## fundy (Mar 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Speaking to a self employed friend.  Work dried up and so the SE Grant was god sent. However, very industrious, so kept working albeit lower takings.  Adding 3 grants + work, getting close to an 2019 earnings. So she is in a bit of a moral dilemma.  Should she apply to the grant.  Highly likely wont qualify for the May payout. 

disclosure - my view is to apply. She is eligible and money in the bank will be useful esp since she does not know which way the rest of the year would go..

Is there a moral dilemma or fairly straightforward?
		
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straightforward, apply for the grant 4 and take the 30% grant 5 imho, pay the tax on it in the following years return


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Corporation Tax - Tick
Dividend Tax - Tick
Self Assessment Tax - Tick

End of year accounts certified by a reputable accountancy company for the last 15 years now but apparently I'm not to be trusted, I'm too much of a fraud risk. I'm convinced his aim to get everyone onto PAYE ASAP. Also watch me having to pay 'my fair share' of tax to ensure the deficit is reduced.
		
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On the plus side Vaseline must now be an allowable business expense. With the amount of times Ltd company directors have been shafted in the last year they must be able to claim back their lubricant to make it a bit easier to take.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

For those that are interested Martin Lewis has interviewed Rishi this morning and it's on his program tonight at 8:30pm (ITV I think). Martin has been very much on the side of the SE/Ltd Co Directors etc throughout this and it'll be interesting to see what response the Chancellor gives in the interview. If Martin allows him to spend the interview telling everyone how he's put an arm round British businesses my TV is going out the window......


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For those that are interested Martin Lewis has interviewed Rishi this morning and it's on his program tonight at 8:30pm (ITV I think). Martin has been very much on the side of the SE/Ltd Co Directors etc throughout this and it'll be interesting to see what response the Chancellor gives in the interview. If Martin allows him to spend the interview telling everyone how he's put an arm round British businesses my TV is going out the window......
		
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At the beginning of the pandemic when the government was announcing the help package it looked as though the lack of help for Ltd Co directors was an oversight that would be corrected. A year down the line it can now only be seen as a deliberate policy decision to exclude those people from the help schemes. The big question is why has it been done. Why can someone who is employed and earning just over £50k get furlough at 80% of their salary but a Ltd Co director earning just over £50k gets nothing at all?


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the beginning of the pandemic when the government was announcing the help package it looked as though the lack of help for Ltd Co directors was an oversight that would be corrected. A year down the line it can now only be seen as a deliberate policy decision to exclude those people from the help schemes. The big question is why has it been done. Why can someone who is employed and earning just over £50k get furlough at 80% of their salary but a Ltd Co director earning just over £50k gets nothing at all?
		
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I honestly think it's a push to get as many as possible onto a PAYE scheme. There seems to be this (incorrect) view that us Ltd Co directors who pay ourselves a minimal salary and the bulk of income in dividends are having it away and the poor PAYE lot are being shafted. I only have to read on Twitter or FB the amount of people saying that it serves us right and if we paid the correct amount of tax in the first place and didn't try and get away with it then we'd have been okay. Maybe this will 'teach us a lesson' etc etc. They are ignorant of the fact that the gap between Salary + Dividends vs PAYE is getting smaller and smaller every year and that those who are PAYE also get sick pay, holiday pay etc which I just don't get. I pay an awful lot of tax, I get away with nothing bar probably getting a bit too much internet for free but that's it yet I am deemed unworthy of help. 

The only plus point for me with the budget was that I am under the threshold for paying the increased Corporation Tax in the future rise so at least I'm only getting partially shafted......


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

Seems like the 4th SEISS grant wont be available until late April. Have no idea why they have delayed this grant and arent opening the claims in the next few weeks but seems youre all going to be waiting a while for your money


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			Seems like the 4th SEISS grant wont be available until late April. Have no idea why they have delayed this grant and arent opening the claims in the next few weeks but seems youre all going to be waiting a while for your money
		
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Getting used to waiting.....


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Getting used to waiting.....

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3rd grant was end of November, no excuse for the next one to be 5 mths later when theyre on a 3 mth basis. Wonder if part of it is delaying the payment into the following tax year


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			Seems like the 4th SEISS grant wont be available until late April. Have no idea why they have delayed this grant and arent opening the claims in the next few weeks but seems youre all going to be waiting a while for your money
		
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Saw this yesterday, an unbelievable decision IMO. For those who have only just been added to the list who can receive some help this is a massive blow to then have to wait almost 8 weeks to get any money.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I honestly think it's a push to get as many as possible onto a PAYE scheme. There seems to be this (incorrect) view that us *Ltd Co directors who pay ourselves a minimal salary and the bulk of income in dividends *are having it away and the poor PAYE lot are being shafted. I only have to read on Twitter or FB the amount of people saying that it serves us right and if we paid the correct amount of tax in the first place and didn't try and get away with it then we'd have been okay. Maybe this will 'teach us a lesson' etc etc. They are ignorant of the fact that the gap between Salary + Dividends vs PAYE is getting smaller and smaller every year and that those who are PAYE also get sick pay, holiday pay etc which I just don't get. I pay an awful lot of tax, I get away with nothing bar probably getting a bit too much internet for free but that's it yet I am deemed unworthy of help.

The only plus point for me with the budget was that I am under the threshold for paying the increased Corporation Tax in the future rise so at least I'm only getting partially shafted......
		
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Can I ask some genuine questions as I have never been involved in running a company or self employed etc and I am going on what has been posted on here.

Re the bit in bold: This has been stated on this forum many times over the years as the “best way” to do it, surely there must of been a financial benefit or that wouldn’t have been the advice?

Has any of the rules or exemptions the chancellor failed to implement got any bearing on people using family members as directors etc?

Now, as I say, apologies if the questions are bone, but there is a perception that dome of these Ltd Companies are set up to avoid people paying their fair share and it’s simply part of the legal tax avoidance.

Finally, nobody should be left struggling or suffering due to the pandemic and the financial schemes implemented should of ensured everybody, and I mean everybody, was helped.


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Saw this yesterday, an unbelievable decision IMO. For those who have only just been added to the list who can receive some help this is a massive blow to then have to wait almost 8 weeks to get any money.
		
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also seems to have gone pretty unmentioned that SEISS for the next 8 mths will actually be 6 mths money, whilst those on furlough will get 8 mths money

for all the rhetoric coming from the govt there is definitely a multi tier system of support going on depending on whether you are employed or self employed


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask some genuine questions as I have never been involved in running a company or self employed etc and I am going on what has been posted on here.

Re the bit in bold: This has been stated on this forum many times over the years as the “best way” to do it, surely there must of been a financial benefit or that wouldn’t have been the advice?
		
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Fundy might well be the man to explain in more detail, I can only speak from my own situation. I think traditionally it was a good way of paying less tax however was entirely legal and it has always been (and still presently is) the advice that all accountants will give a Ltd Co. I have have been a Ltd Co for about 10 years and in that time I can't say that I have ever felt that I've been putting one over on the tax man. It has been tax efficient however during that period the tax on dividends has increased and the gap between what I might earn at £50,000 and what a PAYE earns at £50,000 is now marginal. That doesn't take into account the holiday, sick pay etc that I don't get that a PAYE employee does so it's probably a very small benefit now. I have had the conversation with my tax man over the last few years and the advice is that it is still best to do it this way however it's a watching brief.


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Fundy might well be the man to explain in more detail, I can only speak from my own situation. I think traditionally it was a good way of paying less tax however was entirely legal and it has always been (and still presently is) the advice that all accountants will give a Ltd Co. I have have been a Ltd Co for about 10 years and in that time I can't say that I have ever felt that I've been putting one over on the tax man. It has been tax efficient however during that period the tax on dividends has increased and the gap between what I might earn at £50,000 and what a PAYE earns at £50,000 is now marginal. That doesn't take into account the holiday, sick pay etc that I don't get that a PAYE employee does so it's probably a very small benefit now. I have had the conversation with my tax man over the last few years and the advice is that it is still best to do it this way however it's a watching brief.
		
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This is pretty much spot on, PAYE v Dividend is almost always seen as a calculation to legally minimise the amount of tax and NI that is paid but there are also less benefits that come with the lower tax Dividend route, even moreso it seems when a pandemic comes around!

The "tax optimal" route is usually to pay yourself a small salary which takes advantage of the personal allowance and ensures that you pay your NI stamp towards state pension but then draw the rest of the income as dividends which attract a lower rate of tax and NI

The govt could very easily change this if they wanted to but never do, ultimately because they dont want to raise the dividend rate and make investment in UK businesses less attractive (and other reasons but I may be crossing the political threshold lol)


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask some genuine questions as I have never been involved in running a company or self employed etc and I am going on what has been posted on here.

Re the bit in bold: This has been stated on this forum many times over the years as the “best way” to do it, surely there must of been a financial benefit or that wouldn’t have been the advice?

Has any of the rules or exemptions the chancellor failed to implement got any bearing on people using family members as directors etc?

*Now, as I say, apologies if the questions are bone, but there is a perception that dome of these Ltd Companies are set up to avoid people paying their fair share and it’s simply part of the legal tax avoidance.*

Finally, nobody should be left struggling or suffering due to the pandemic and the financial schemes implemented should of ensured everybody, and I mean everybody, was helped.
		
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The most common misconception. Along with "all contractors are at it". 
The set up is to avoid a Ltd Co contractor facing a double tax hit as people forget that as well as personal tax we also have to pay corporation tax and VAT bills.

My combined taxes for last year were night on £37k most of which was VAT and corp tax. 

All of that comes from my day rate and therefore me with pension contributions to be made as well. 

Also, the setup allows us to keep money aside for holidays and sick days should they arise as we, and I can't stress this enough, are not employees. We get no perks, no bonuses, no incentives, no "time off" pay. 

In a lot of cases we have to buy our own tech, my last client did not supply IT kit to contractors so had I not already had one, I would have had to shell out, albeit via my company, for a laptop. 

Do some take it to the extreme? I have no doubt as you will find with all things. But I have been a contractor for 9 years and not met a single person that does kick the arse out of it.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			The most common misconception. Along with "all contractors are at it".
The set up is to avoid a Ltd Co contractor facing a double tax hit as people forget that as well as personal tax we also have to pay corporation tax and VAT bills.

My combined taxes for last year were night on £37k most of which was VAT and corp tax.

All of that comes from my day rate and therefore me with pension contributions to be made as well.

Also, the setup allows us to keep money aside for holidays and sick days should they arise as we, and I can't stress this enough, are not employees. We get no perks, no bonuses, no incentives, no "time off" pay.

In a lot of cases we have to buy our own tech, my last client did not supply IT kit to contractors so had I not already had one, I would have had to shell out, albeit via my company, for a laptop.

Do some take it to the extreme? I have no doubt as you will find with all things. But I have been a contractor for 9 years and not met a single person that does kick the arse out of it.
		
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All the above for me plus also when I started out PAYE was not an option because you have to pay yourself monthly and as many business owners will tell you everything like insurances, leases suppliers have to be paid first and you're last in the food chain. I tend to pay myself in chunks as and when I've been paid by my customers.
One other reason I'm ltd is I work in a highly litigious industry that if for whatever reason a claim is made against me and my insurance won't cover it my house and assets are protected.
There has definitely been a concerted choice not to support businesses like mine and to say it's been stressful and heart breaking is an understatement. If it hadn't have been for my wife's work we would have been screwed and as someone who has always been self sufficient it's taken it's toll on me.
I've always paid my taxes and strongly believe everyone should and to be cut adrift at a time like this is hard to take.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			All the above for me plus also when I started out PAYE was not an option because you have to pay yourself monthly and as many business owners will tell you everything like insurances, leases suppliers have to be paid first and you're last in the food chain. I tend to pay myself in chunks as and when I've been paid by my customers.
One other reason I'm ltd is I work in a highly litigious industry that if for whatever reason a claim is made against me and my insurance won't cover it my house and assets are protected.
There has definitely been a concerted choice not to support businesses like mine and to say it's been stressful and heart breaking is an understatement. If it hadn't have been for my wife's work we would have been screwed and as someone who has always been self sufficient it's taken it's toll on me.
I've always paid my taxes and strongly believe everyone should and to be cut adrift at a time like this is hard to take.
		
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If I were a cynic, I'd say they're using it as further pushes towards forcing the IR35 changes through...

"If you'd been inside IR35 that wouldn't have happened..." sort of thing. 

So many people quick to condemn contractors yet so few actually understand how and why it works that way.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			If I were a cynic, I'd say they're using it as further pushes towards forcing the IR35 changes through...

"If you'd been inside IR35 that wouldn't have happened..." sort of thing.

So many people quick to condemn contractors yet so few actually understand how and why it works that way.
		
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Surely there could have been less brutal and penal way to move contractors to that. Many viable businesses will have gone to the wall and the loss of the Corp taxes with them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2021)

Encouraging my lad to apply for 4th SEISS grant.  He didn't qualify for 1st (or subsequent) SEISS grants as they were based upon tax year 2018/19 - and in that year his employed income was marginally greater than his self-employed (51/49).  As a result he didn't qualify for SEISS. 

He did get furlough but that only lasted into October - he was one of the hundreds of thousands made redundant in August and September before the extension to furlough scheme was announced.  I can't recall why companies made folks redundant at that point - but with the ending of furlough they couldn't keep him on.  There was something about the lead time to end October? 

Anyway...as his income for 2019/20 was I think marginally more self-employed than employed maybe this time he'll qualify for a SEISS grant - but I have no idea if he does or not.  If he is fortunate to get a grant he'll have 67p deducted from his UC for every £ grant he gets - but that's how it works and 33p/£ grant is better than what it currently is - nothing.  Difficult.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Surely there could have been less brutal and penal way to move contractors to that. Many viable businesses will have gone to the wall and the loss of the Corp taxes with them.
		
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There were a number of options IMO. 
The IR35 rules, while not perfect, were fine as they were. Forcing companies to make the determination they knew would only go one way. 
Shortsighted and long term harmful in my view.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Fundy might well be the man to explain in more detail, I can only speak from my own situation. I think traditionally it was a good way of paying less tax however was entirely legal and it has always been (and still presently is) the advice that all accountants will give a Ltd Co. I have have been a Ltd Co for about 10 years and in that time I can't say that I have ever felt that I've been putting one over on the tax man. It has been tax efficient however during that period the tax on dividends has increased and the gap between what I might earn at £50,000 and what a PAYE earns at £50,000 is now marginal. That doesn't take into account the holiday, sick pay etc that I don't get that a PAYE employee does so it's probably a very small benefit now. I have had the conversation with my tax man over the last few years and the advice is that it is still best to do it this way however it's a watching brief.
		
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GreiginFife said:



			The most common misconception. Along with "all contractors are at it".
The set up is to avoid a Ltd Co contractor facing a double tax hit as people forget that as well as personal tax we also have to pay corporation tax and VAT bills.

My combined taxes for last year were night on £37k most of which was VAT and corp tax.

All of that comes from my day rate and therefore me with pension contributions to be made as well.

Also, the setup allows us to keep money aside for holidays and sick days should they arise as we, and I can't stress this enough, are not employees. We get no perks, no bonuses, no incentives, no "time off" pay.

In a lot of cases we have to buy our own tech, my last client did not supply IT kit to contractors so had I not already had one, I would have had to shell out, albeit via my company, for a laptop.

Do some take it to the extreme? I have no doubt as you will find with all things. But I have been a contractor for 9 years and not met a single person that does kick the arse out of it.
		
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funkycoldmedina said:



			All the above for me plus also when I started out PAYE was not an option because you have to pay yourself monthly and as many business owners will tell you everything like insurances, leases suppliers have to be paid first and you're last in the food chain. I tend to pay myself in chunks as and when I've been paid by my customers.
One other reason I'm ltd is I work in a highly litigious industry that if for whatever reason a claim is made against me and my insurance won't cover it my house and assets are protected.
There has definitely been a concerted choice not to support businesses like mine and to say it's been stressful and heart breaking is an understatement. If it hadn't have been for my wife's work we would have been screwed and as someone who has always been self sufficient it's taken it's toll on me.
I've always paid my taxes and strongly believe everyone should and to be cut adrift at a time like this is hard to take.
		
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Thanks for all the replies, like I said at the beginning I have absolutely no knowledge or experience in this area, 36 years in the Army from age 16 and all I “worried” about was the amount I got in the bank at the end of the month, as a single soldier living in barracks my rent, food, accomm etc was all taken at a source, when married all I worried about was food and utilities, as again, housing etc taken at source.

In all scenarios it didn’t matter whether I was on leave, working 9-5 or on exercise 24/7 I was paid the same. It can be quite traumatic when you leave and the real world kicks in.

One final question, Why do it if it seems so fraught with worry and pitfalls?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for all the replies, like I said at the beginning I have absolutely no knowledge or experience in this area, 36 years in the Army from age 16 and all I “worried” about was the amount I got in the bank at the end of the month, as a single soldier living in barracks my rent, food, accomm etc was all taken at a source, when married all I worried about was food and utilities, as again, housing etc taken at source.

In all scenarios it didn’t matter whether I was on leave, working 9-5 or on exercise 24/7 I was paid the same. It can be quite traumatic when you leave and the real world kicks in.

One final question, Why do it if it seems so fraught with worry and pitfalls?
		
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I can't answer for anyone else but it suits my skillset and lifestyle. I also prefer working for more than one company, gives a broader world view while acquiring more skills.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I can't answer for anyone else but it suits my skillset and lifestyle. I also prefer working for more than one company, gives a broader world view while acquiring more skills.
		
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Hopefully the benefits also outweigh the hazards for you.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Hopefully the benefits also outweigh the hazards for you.

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I don't really see any hazards as such, its just been made more difficult to get good roles thanks to the rule changes.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			One final question, Why do it if it seems so fraught with worry and pitfalls?
		
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For me it's because I can earn a decent amount of money and have 6 or 7 months of the year off to spend at home with the kids. I could earn almost as much if I was a company employee but I would then have someone telling me when and where I had to work and I would get less time off. As a freelancer I can pick and choose which jobs I accept and which I turn down. For example, I won't work Xmas, I don't do any job that requires a helicopter crew change and I won't work in Nigeria. As an employee I wouldn't be able to do that.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			One final question, Why do it if it seems so fraught with worry and pitfalls?
		
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For me it was an accident, I was made redundant and instantly started looking for a new job, there was very little out there at the time. A couple of client's who I had worked with for years asked if I wanted to freelance for them, they were just helping me out and so it went on from there. Suddenly the mortgage was paid for 6 months or so and I decided I'd take my time looking for a new job. I then realised that actually I would get paid more doing it this way rather than earning money for someone else and before I had kids it gave me a great lifestyle with the flexibility to play a lot of golf etc. In the meantime the company has provided a good income and still allows me to spend time with family.

In all honesty the fact that it's not as profitable compared to being PAYE that bothers me, it's this attitude that people have that because I pay myself like I do then I must be on the fiddle. Last year I paid a considerable amount in Personal Tax, Corp. Tax, VAT etc although I'm not complaining as my earning power (pre-Covid) was always better than any salary I'd get as a PAYE etc. There are pro's and con's to both to be honest.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me it was an accident, I was made redundant and instantly started looking for a new job, there was very little out there at the time. A couple of client's who I had worked with for years asked if I wanted to freelance for them, they were just helping me out and so it went on from there. Suddenly the mortgage was paid for 6 months or so and I decided I'd take my time looking for a new job. I then realised that actually I would get paid more doing it this way rather than earning money for someone else and before I had kids it gave me a great lifestyle with the flexibility to play a lot of golf etc. In the meantime the company has provided a good income and still allows me to spend time with family.

In all honesty the fact that it's not as profitable compared to being PAYE that bothers me, it's this attitude that people have that because I pay myself like I do then I must be on the fiddle. Last year I paid a considerable amount in Personal Tax, Corp. Tax, VAT etc although I'm not complaining as my earning power (pre-Covid) was always better than any salary I'd get as a PAYE etc. There are pro's and con's to both to be honest.
		
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The little bit I’ve gained reading yours and others replies has been great, previously and not aimed at anyone, we hear the comments of “my accountant advised” or “I don’t get paid holidays or paid if I’m sick” etc and without these things being explained and at times it has come across as some wanting the best of both worlds (and why not) and feeling hard done to when it hasn’t worked out.

Thanks again.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The little bit I’ve gained reading yours and others replies has been great, previously and not aimed at anyone, we hear the comments of “my accountant advised” or “I don’t get paid holidays or paid if I’m sick” etc and without these things being explained and at times it has come across as some wanting the best of both worlds (and why not) and feeling hard done to when it hasn’t worked out.

Thanks again.

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Yeah, it's definitely not an attitude of feeling hard done by with regards the holiday pay/sick pay, it was a choice I made to stick with the business rather than going back to PAYE. It's purely the impression that those on PAYE have that anyone who pays themselves a dividend is 'at it' and deserve everything they get with regards the taxman catching up with us. Sadly he catches up with me at least once a year with my company, quarterly with my VAT and once every 6 months with my personal tax payments!!


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The little bit I’ve gained reading yours and others replies has been great, previously and not aimed at anyone, we hear the comments of “my accountant advised” or “I don’t get paid holidays or paid if I’m sick” etc and without these things being explained and at times it has come across as some wanting the best of both worlds (and why not) and feeling hard done to when it hasn’t worked out.

Thanks again.

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If I got sick pay/pension contributions and apprenticeship levy paid by the client I'd happily pay as much tax as an employee.

I don't think it can be underestimated the impact that taking a weeks holiday can have on someone when they don't get paid for it


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Yeah, it's definitely not an attitude of feeling hard done by with regards the holiday pay/sick pay, it was a choice I made to stick with the business rather than going back to PAYE. It's purely the impression that those on PAYE have that anyone who pays themselves a dividend is 'at it' and deserve everything they get with regards the taxman catching up with us. Sadly he catches up with me at least once a year with my company, quarterly with my VAT and *once every 6 months with my personal tax payments!*! 

Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on the "on account" payments to her Maj...


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Don't even get me started on the "on account" payments to her Maj...
		
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thatll be another £100 plus interest for being late on your advance payment please (something a PAYE employee has never had to deal with!)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			If I got sick pay/pension contributions and apprenticeship levy paid by the client I'd happily pay as much tax as an employee.

I don't think it can be underestimated the impact that taking a weeks holiday can have on someone when they don't get paid for it
		
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Thankfully I never had the worry, but, surely holidays/leave etc is factored when you plan or agree to your workload, ie, Colchester does it for 26 weeks.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			thatll be another £100 plus interest for being late on your advance payment please (something a PAYE employee has never had to deal with!)
		
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It's the calculations for the balancing payments, they never seem to make sense. 
Employees don't know how good they have it 😂


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It's the calculations for the balancing payments, they never seem to make sense.
Employees don't know how good they have it 😂
		
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Then try explaining it to a plasterer who wants to understand why he needs to pay HMRC even more money


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thankfully I never had the worry, but, surely holidays/leave etc is factored when you plan or agree to your workload, ie, Colchester does it for 26 weeks.

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Not really, you get a contract for x number of months (days) at y rate. Usually the projects are so intense (6 month contract means 6 months work). 
Yes, you can plan for it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't get paid. 

Imagine getting £2000 one month and then £1000 the next but still having all the same bills to pay.


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## Mudball (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			There were a number of options IMO.
The IR35 rules, while not perfect, were fine as they were. *Forcing companies to make the determination they knew would only go one way.*
Shortsighted and long term harmful in my view.
		
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We sometime use Contractors with specialist skills on our project alongside staff to cover areas that we dont cover.  Simply because we may do 1 or 2 such projects a year, so no point putting the contractor on our books and then having to pay them for 9 months.  Equally the contractor (most of them sole trader/ltd cos ) will work with other firms for the remaining 9 and they love what they do.  Keeps them free from office politics.   The whole IR35 will force us not to consider using contractors and simply turn down those jobs.  it hits companies and it hits contractors.

Somehow the Tory/Chanellors view seems to be that there is Universal Credit available for those who could not get financial support.  If this is the way to show that 'I am putting my arms around everyone and helping everyone' it is bonkers..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not really, you get a contract for x number of months (days) at y rate. Usually the projects are so intense (6 month contract means 6 months work).
Yes, you can plan for it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't get paid.

Imagine getting £2000 one month and then £1000 the next but still having all the same bills to pay.
		
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I’m not for one minute saying you have it easy or it’s simple, just these are the pitfalls (hazards) you had to consider when going down your chosen route.

Given the issues you and others describe plus what Fundy has posted previously PAYE seems a lot more secure.


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## fundy (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not for one minute saying you have it easy or it’s simple, just these are the pitfalls (hazards) you had to consider when going down your chosen route.

Given the issues you and others describe plus what Fundy has posted previously PAYE seems a lot more secure.
		
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It is the more secure route, certainly doesnt make it the best route for some though. For most its quite clear which is the right option but there is a grey area in the middle where it becomes a choice. Its certainly shifting towards PAYE for a lot lately on the way they have been treated through Covid and also with tax and law changes and some are rightly feeling as though they are being hard done by


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thankfully I never had the worry, but, surely holidays/leave etc is factored when you plan or agree to your workload, ie, Colchester does it for 26 weeks.

Click to expand...

Or sometimes 30.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			PAYE seems a lot more secure.
		
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Until you get the meeting called to discuss the companies numbers for the quarter and that it's likely they're going to make at least one round of redundancies. You have no control over if/when this will come and whether your number will be up! I, on the other hand, can see what the bank account has in it, know how long I can continue should the work suddenly disappear and so will see whatever happens coming from a longer way off.


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Imagine getting £2000 one month and then £1000 the next but still having all the same bills to pay.
		
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Gets a bit like that in driving instruction too.
I used to teach twins, 2 hours a week each, nice steady 100 quid just from them.
They went to Ibiza for a month one Summer - bang, that's a 100 quid a week pay cut.
And when 3 or 4 of them do it the numbers mount up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not for one minute saying you have it easy or it’s simple, just these are the pitfalls (hazards) you had to consider when going down your chosen route.

Given the issues you and others describe plus what Fundy has posted previously PAYE seems a lot more secure.
		
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Presumably you mean work for someone else rather than be self employed? Pluses and minuses for both. The days of job for life, outside of the public sector, are long gone so security is less of a factor. Being employed certainly does offer many securities and fewer worries but you then lack the control that you have over self employment. 

If I could start again I'd try to get inside a council, local govt. I never thought I'd of said that back in the day, hence why I didn't 😆


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## DannyOT (Mar 4, 2021)

I do feel for directors / employees paid predominantly through dividends; there is a definite assumption that anyone in the role of director has plenty of cash reserves and is rolling in money. 

I think part of the reason that no scheme exists for directors / dividends is because of the administrative burden and 'double claim' potential. How would it be managed if you have a director who pays themselves through both PAYE and dividends? Would you be entitled to claim under both schemes? You could theoretically cap it at a combined maximum of £2500 per month but how do you split the divide? There's the problem of how it's paid out. If it was paid in the same way as PAYE employees, it would all be subject to income tax / NI which could cause issues down the line.

There's also the issue of people who are directors of multiple companies who would most likely be entitled to make a claim for each company. I know you can be furloughed by multiple employees under the job retention scheme but there aren't many people paid significant amounts through PAYE by 2 employers so the overall risk is much less.

I'm sure there are ways to create such a scheme but knowing how HMRC hold data, it would be an absolute nightmare to administer and potential a lot of tax at risk.


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## hairball_89 (Mar 4, 2021)

I've followed this thread with some interest. I'm in theatre, I'm a sound engineer. Many of my friends and colleagues have had nothing coming in since march last year, and I know we're not alone as an industry. I've been lucky because although I am self-employed and work freelance for a few bands and artists and festivals, I probably only make 10-15% of my income from freelance earnings and the vast majority as  PAYE from my council owned theatre job. 

The guys who have taken the time to explain their situations, and how that affects them this year and moving forwards, thank you for this. It's genuinely eye opening and certainly right now and over the last year or so, I really do not envy you at all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2021)

hairball_89 said:



			I've followed this thread with some interest. I'm in theatre, I'm a sound engineer. Many of my friends and colleagues have had nothing coming in since march last year, and I know we're not alone as an industry. I've been lucky because although I am self-employed and work freelance for a few bands and artists and festivals, I probably only make 10-15% of my income from freelance earnings and the vast majority as  PAYE from my council owned theatre job.

The guys who have taken the time to explain their situations, and how that affects them this year and moving forwards, thank you for this. It's genuinely eye opening and certainly right now and over the last year or so, I really do not envy you at all.
		
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My lad’s in the same world as you - some of his income is employed through work he does in a big Sheffield nightclub but much is freelance self-employed working for tour management companies supporting bands and acts as they tour.  So he’s like your colleagues for whom all income stopped dead last March.  Furloughed by the nightclub until September then made redundant, but by quirk of work his freelance self employed income for 18/19 was less than his employed so didn’t qualify for any self employed grants.  Is he seeing light at the end of the tunnel? Yes - but he doesn’t think it’s in June or July.  Really tough in your sector...wishing you the best for a soonest reopening ....


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 10, 2021)

Anderton said:



			Being self-employed is such a nightmare. I enjoyed it for like a few months and then it just became a nightmare so now I am browsing through https://jooble.org/jobs/Glendale,-CA looking for a job because I don't want to be self-employed anymore.
		
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How is commuting every day from the UK right now?


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## fundy (Apr 22, 2021)

SEISS 4 claims open now depending on the date allocated, seem those unable to claim the first 3 grants with the early dates, some cant claim until mid next week it seems

If youre eligible you should have been messaged a claim date, if not you can find it by trying to start a claim


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## Imurg (Apr 22, 2021)

Will be doing mine at about 6am tomorrow


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## fundy (Jul 22, 2021)

Quick note that the 5th grant should be ready to be claimed starting next week. You shouldve had an email telling you when you will be able to claim from.

Be aware you will need to make a declaration on your turnover for the year to April 2021. If it is more than 30% less than your previous turnover then you will be get the same grant at 80%, if it not down by 30% you will only get 30%

If anyone needs help feel free to ask

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/work-out-your-turnover-so-you-can-claim-the-fifth-seiss-grant


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2021)

I am not convinced these grants are and have been always used by some claimants to keep business afloat, or self-employed ticking over, as some self-employed I am aware of in receipt of grants seem to have been able to magically afford new cars, vans, extensions, hot tubs or holidays…

I would hope inland revenue are requiring evidence of what the grants are being spent on and are very watchful for fraud.  There are very many for whom the grants will have been very welcome, properly used, and the only thing keeping their head above water…but there will of course be some others.

I am guessing that these grants are counted as income, and so this 5th one will be counted as income for this current tax year and so monitored in that way.


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## fundy (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not convinced these grants are and have been always used by some claimants to keep business afloat, or self-employed ticking over, as some self-employed I am aware of in receipt of grants seem to have been able to magically afford new cars, vans, extensions, hot tubs or holidays…

I would hope inland revenue are requiring evidence of what the grants are being spent on and are very watchful for fraud.  There are very many for whom the grants will have been very welcome, properly used, and the only thing keeping their head above water…but there will of course be some others.

I am guessing that these grants are counted as income, and so this 5th one will be counted as income for this current tax year and so monitored in that way.
		
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This comes across as a very bitter post SILH, I think we all know why!!!! Like every area of support there will be those who abuse it and defraud it, that doesnt mean those who have had their lives and business ripped apart shouldnt receive the support they need and I will do what I can to help them. 

a couple of examples of the guys Im helping with their claims;  1) A plasterer whose income went from 45k to 20k, who had his mortgage offered pulled because of it and who is struggling to stay afloat, whilst overpaying for a rental and now cant afford to buy having been saving for years to get to the position where he could having spent most of his deposit the last 18 mths, supporting his family and 3 kids, who currently is on his second period of self isolation in the last 5 weeks because one of his kids has been exposed to it at school (and hes getting no further support for these further loss of earnings). 2) A taxi driver who had gone self employed 9 mths before after being screwed over by his boss and thus hadnt submitted a tax return when the pandemic hit and who received no support for the first year and who has received a pitiful amount for the 8 mths of this year, who has been working 3 jobs for most of the time people have been moaning about not getting support or getting their family to bail them out

Yes these grants are classified as income, the first 3 go on your tax return in 20/21 the 4th and 5th ones go on your 21/22 return and are liable for national insurance and income tax.  Inland revenue have no right to ask what the grants are spent on, do they ask what other people who receive support spend there money on? Or do you want them to be asking the same questions of everyone who ever receives govt support?

What would you have done differently that would have been fair to everyone and not open to fraud?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			This comes across as a very bitter post SILH, I think we all know why!!!! Like every area of support there will be those who abuse it and defraud it, that doesnt mean those who have had their lives and business ripped apart shouldnt receive the support they need and I will do what I can to help them.

a couple of examples of the guys Im helping with their claims;  1) A plasterer whose income went from 45k to 20k, who had his mortgage offered pulled because of it and who is struggling to stay afloat, whilst overpaying for a rental and now cant afford to buy having been saving for years to get to the position where he could having spent most of his deposit the last 18 mths, supporting his family and 3 kids, who currently is on his second period of self isolation in the last 5 weeks because one of his kids has been exposed to it at school (and hes getting no further support for these further loss of earnings). 2) A taxi driver who had gone self employed 9 mths before after being screwed over by his boss and thus hadnt submitted a tax return when the pandemic hit and who received no support for the first year and who has received a pitiful amount for the 8 mths of this year, who has been working 3 jobs for most of the time people have been moaning about not getting support or getting their family to bail them out

Yes these grants are classified as income, the first 3 go on your tax return in 20/21 the 4th and 5th ones go on your 21/22 return and are liable for national insurance and income tax.  Inland revenue have no right to ask what the grants are spent on, do they ask what other people who receive support spend there money on? Or do you want them to be asking the same questions of everyone who ever receives govt support?

What would you have done differently that would have been fair to everyone and not open to fraud?
		
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Maybe it does but I do get fed up when I hear relatively well off folk getting grants ostensibly to keep them afloat yet able to at the same time able to afford luxuries…during a time of need and great difficulty for many.  But I just needed to get it off my chest.  And that I have done.


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## Mudball (Jul 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not convinced these grants are and have been always used by some claimants to keep business afloat, or self-employed ticking over, as some self-employed I am aware of in receipt of grants seem to have been able to magically afford new cars, vans, extensions, hot tubs or holidays…

I would hope inland revenue are requiring evidence of what the grants are being spent on and are very watchful for fraud.  There are very many for whom the grants will have been very welcome, properly used, and the only thing keeping their head above water…but there will of course be some others.

I am guessing that these grants are counted as income, and so this 5th one will be counted as income for this current tax year and so monitored in that way.
		
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There are a lot of people who needed it. Fundy already pointed it out. Even within the relative ‘well off’ this has been a blessing. From experience and friend circle, the first couple were god sent. It acted as bridging loans for many. It also allowed people some space to pivot and adapt to do different things. Go from being a decorator to being a home based food catering etc. So I won’t kick it. 

On the last point on the ‘new cars’. Again it may look wrong, but need to understand the circumstances.  Before lockdown our car was coming to end of its PCP.  It turned out lot cheaper to swap for a new car than keep the old one. Optically it looks we have a shiny motor, in reality it is a saving tool. 

I know you wanted to get it off your chest and you are not judging. Good on you.  End of


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## Mudball (Aug 10, 2021)

Looks like there is new info required for the 5th grant. Will make a few people fill out SAs early this year..


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## fundy (Aug 10, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Looks like there is new info required for the 5th grant. Will make a few people fill out SAs early this year.. 


View attachment 37958

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as per post 212 you need to calculate your turnover, there is no requirement to do your full SA and submit it early though, the deadline is still Jan 31st


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## Mudball (Aug 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			as per post 212 you need to calculate your turnover, there is no requirement to do your full SA and submit it early though, the deadline is still Jan 31st
		
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tnx.. also reading thru.. looks like turnover does not include prev SA grants...  so pure business turnover


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## fundy (Aug 10, 2021)

Mudball said:



			tnx.. also reading thru.. looks like turnover does not include prev SA grants...  so pure business turnover
		
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yep thats correct for this grant claim, when you do your SA there is a separate box for the grants to go in too


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## Mudball (Aug 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			yep thats correct for this grant claim, when you do your SA there is a separate box for the grants to go in too
		
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Will cross the bridge when I get there… I don’t get any grants, but I help someone who does.


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## Mudball (Aug 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			yep thats correct for this grant claim, when you do your SA there is a separate box for the grants to go in too
		
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@fundy for self employed (not via company) how are you calculating turnover.  Simple bank receipts?


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## fundy (Aug 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



@fundy for self employed (not via company) how are you calculating turnover.  Simple bank receipts?
		
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depends if their self assessment is done on cash basis or traditional accounts method, bank receipts should be fine for the former, not for the latter


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## Mudball (Aug 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			depends if their self assessment is done on cash basis or traditional accounts method, bank receipts should be fine for the former, not for the latter
		
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it is not cash.. a bit more complicated as there are some direct costs (split 50:50 with employer) that are taken at source before money hits the bank.  I think there is more enof needed to complete this.  Have asked them to contact their accountant, but i guess the accountants wont want to get invovlved in grants business.    Everyday is a school day.


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## fundy (Aug 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			it is not cash.. a bit more complicated as there are some direct costs (split 50:50 with employer) that are taken at source before money hits the bank.  I think there is more enof needed to complete this.  Have asked them to contact their accountant, but i guess the accountants wont want to get invovlved in grants business.    Everyday is a school day.
		
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accountant will happily get involved if hes being paid!!!!!

if not cash basis then you do need to calculate the correct accounting turnover for the period based on work done, you may be able to calculate it from invoices depending on how good the records are but the above makes it a bit confusing


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## Mudball (Aug 18, 2021)

fundy said:



			accountant will happily get involved if hes being paid!!!!!

if not cash basis then you do need to calculate the correct accounting turnover for the period based on work done, you may be able to calculate it from invoices depending on how good the records are but the above makes it a bit confusing
		
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I think i have a figure in mind... but I am not sure it is fully accurate may be off by 10-15%.   multiple source and each doing their own way on direct workplace expenses that are split with employer.   I am assuming that there will be a few people who are in this space.  Will HRMC allow for restating of turnover during SA? If there is a clawback, then fine. 

Alterntively, should ask the accountants to do the SA early rather than the usual Christmas holiday period


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## fundy (Aug 18, 2021)

Mudball said:



			I think i have a figure in mind... but I am not sure it is fully accurate may be off by 10-15%.   multiple source and each doing their own way on direct workplace expenses that are split with employer.   I am assuming that there will be a few people who are in this space.  Will HRMC allow for restating of turnover during SA? If there is a clawback, then fine. 

Alterntively, should ask the accountants to do the SA early rather than the usual Christmas holiday period
		
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I have no idea how HMRC will treat claims where the turnover doesnt subsequently match the SA turnover when it is submitted down the line, I expect they will look to reassess any claims and claw back any overpayment if they think there has been any, whether thats all they do its hard to know. I assume they have a plan but arent communicating it

If you can get the accountants to calculate the turnover accurately I would do (i would at least have a conversation with them and take their formal advice)


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