# AND HERE WE GO - THE 2019 GENERAL ELECTION THREAD



## Pathetic Shark (Oct 30, 2019)

More bad fouls than the Premier League, more kicking balls out of the rough than your society fourball and more bad language than your average Channel 4 comedy.  Yes it's the next chance for the people of the UK to vote.

I really don't care much about the build-up but will be out with the popcorn for the results.  But I cannot wait for the first time Diane Abbott is caught live in front of cameras trying to explain numbers, the Lib Dems are caught trying to explain why democracy means ignoring votes they don't like the result of, and any time Boris goes head-to-head with the other leaders.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

Daft thread title aside. I know who I am voting for so can't be arsed with any of the campaigning guff.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2019)

Really can't be asked now. Government has proved there is no intent to serve the will of the public


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## Wolf (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Daft thread title aside. I know who I am voting for so can't be arsed with any of the campaigning guff.
		
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Pretty much this for me as well


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2019)

As much as I want Brexit I also want to see Boris well and truly dumped on his rear end come Friday 13th...

As I've already noted, elsewhere, really hoping there are some independent candidates on my ballot paper... Which, sadly, was not the case last time round...


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

Just said on BBC " there is no evidence voting in the winter months that people will not go out and vote " ( coz of the weather). 5 mins later they said this is the first General election since the 1920's. So where did the evidence come from.
That aside, it is quoted that the election could well be a one topic ( not gonna be the first to say it ðŸ˜‰) campaign. I think a lot of MPs may we'll be unemployed this Xmas. For me, this is the worst Tory government in living history. However I think JC is poison, his handling of European issues ðŸ˜‰, shows how inept him and the incompetent Labour Party are. I hope Labour get a real kicking so the old guard of JC, Diane Abacus, J Mc and others are dumped and in comes a young vibrant leader that can genuinely be an opposition against this government. 
PS, will also be glad to see the Back Of Bercow.


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## Grant85 (Oct 30, 2019)

Early predictions...
Tories will do worse than in 2017 (280 seats)
Labour will do about the same as in 2017. (266 seats)
LDs will do a bit better. (40 seats)
SNP will do a bit better (45 seats)
Think Brexit Party will fizzle out and not have much of an impact. See UKIP in 2015... 12%, no seats.

I think the Tories will make same mistakes as 2017... underestimating the task of keeping a campaign going for 6 weeks without getting shown up on domestic policy. Also underestimating strength of Labour (and Corbyn) in campaign mode.

Lib Dems and SNP should be able to cut through the noise by playing small ball on central message of EU membership, coupled with Scotland's voice for SNP in Scotland.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			As I've already noted, elsewhere, really hoping there are some independent candidates on my ballot paper... Which, sadly, was not the case last time round...
		
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I'm in this camp. Fingers crossed when the candidates are announced.


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## Norrin Radd (Oct 30, 2019)

Cmon you blues


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

Must be tough being an English voter not one honest party to vote for apart from the Greens or any Independents.
Lots of spoiled ballot papers I think.


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## Grant85 (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm in this camp. Fingers crossed when the candidates are announced.
		
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Interesting the people saying this. Ultimately hugely difficult for an independent to get elected - even most of the current MPs who have resigned or been sacked from their party will find it almost impossible to get back in. 

It's a FPTP system and is designed to favour the two main parties - it has generally worked in that it has discouraged a radical party winning a majority - and I feel that's likely to happen again, but I still think it's hugely unlikely to see more than half a dozen or so independents. 

Ultimately it is often best to vote against the candidate you don't like rather than stick to your principles and vote for the candidate you do like.


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## Grant85 (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must be tough being an English voter not one honest party to vote for apart from the Greens or any Independents.
Lots of spoiled ballot papers I think.
		
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Genuinely would hold my nose and vote for the party in my area best placed to beat the Tories.


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			More bad fouls than the Premier League, more kicking balls out of the rough than your society fourball and more bad language than your average Channel 4 comedy.  Yes it's the next chance for the people of the UK to vote.

I really don't care much about the build-up but will be out with the popcorn for the results.  But I cannot wait for the first time Diane Abbott is caught live in front of cameras trying to explain numbers, the Lib Dems are caught trying to explain why democracy means ignoring votes they don't like the result of, and any time Boris goes head-to-head with the other leaders.
		
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Can you amend the post to add a poll with all the parties on?  Could be interesting?


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2019)

What date do we vote?


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## Orikoru (Oct 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Can you amend the post to add a poll with all the parties on?  Could be interesting?
		
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Knowing this forum it will be a Tory landslide so not much point.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Interesting the people saying this. Ultimately hugely difficult for an independent to get elected - even most of the current MPs who have resigned or been sacked from their party will find it almost impossible to get back in.

It's a FPTP system and is designed to favour the two main parties - it has generally worked in that it has discouraged a radical party winning a majority - and I feel that's likely to happen again, but I still think it's hugely unlikely to see more than half a dozen or so independents.

*Ultimately it is often best to vote against the candidate you don't like rather than stick to your principles and vote for the candidate you do like.*

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How do I get to sleep at night afterwards though? How will I get clean? It would be like cheering a Man Utd goal or wanting Liverpool to win the PL


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## albie999 (Oct 30, 2019)

Is the raving looney party still an option ..... just realised, thats all of them at the moment


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

Is it time to have a NOTA (None Of The Above) option on the ballot paper?    different countries have different approach to NOTA.  We should have a re-run in the constituency which votes for NOTA

For more explaination head to the fountain of truth:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above#NOTA_UK


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Interesting the people saying this. Ultimately hugely difficult for an independent to get elected - even most of the current MPs who have resigned or been sacked from their party will find it almost impossible to get back in. 

It's a FPTP system and is designed to favour the two main parties - it has generally worked in that it has discouraged a radical party winning a majority - and I feel that's likely to happen again, but I still think it's hugely unlikely to see more than half a dozen or so independents. 

Ultimately it is often best to vote against the candidate you don't like rather than stick to your principles and vote for the candidate you do like.
		
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As was noted by one of the political commentators this morning... Ultimately only the votes in about fifty seats really matter...


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## jp5 (Oct 30, 2019)

Expect a 5 way split between Tories, Labour, LDem, BXP & SNP. Coalition talks over Christmas!


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

albie999 said:



			Is the raving looney party still an option ..... just realised, thats all of them at the moment
		
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Did T May narrowly win ahead of the Lord Buckethead?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

Handcock immediately raising the stupidity bar with 'A vote for any other party would let Corbyn in'
Any minute now we will hear a Labour spokesperson respond with 'A vote for any other party would let Johnson back in'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just said on BBC " there is no evidence voting in the winter months that people will not go out and vote " ( coz of the weather). 5 mins later they said this is the first General election since the 1920's. So where did the evidence come from.
That aside, it is quoted that the election could well be a one topic ( not gonna be the first to say it ðŸ˜‰) campaign. I think a lot of MPs may we'll be unemployed this Xmas. For me, this is the worst Tory government in living history. However I think JC is poison, his handling of European issues ðŸ˜‰, shows how inept him and the incompetent Labour Party are. I hope Labour get a real kicking so the old guard of JC, Diane Abacus, J Mc and others are dumped and in comes a young vibrant leader that can genuinely be an opposition against this government.
PS, will also be glad to see the Back Of Bercow.
		
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Makes no sense Tashy, you want the worst tory government in living history to continue for 5 more years in the hope we get a decent opposition the next time. So more of the same damage for 5yrs at what cost?
Maybe, just maybe, people should look at all the Party manifestoâ€™s and make the decision on that rather than personalities as itâ€™s very unlikely those Labour MPâ€™s will lose their seats, and if they lose the election itâ€™s only likely Corbyn will no longer be leader.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Expect a 5 way split between Tories, Labour, LDem, BXP & SNP. Coalition talks over Christmas!
		
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New Liberal leader working in partnership with the SNP and smaller parties would probably have 120 seats. So perhaps a three way split or a Tory/Labour alliance.


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## Neilds (Oct 30, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really can't be asked now. Government has proved there is no intent to serve the will of the public
		
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Think you may be confusing Government with Parliament. The way the whole lot have acted in the past couple of years is shameful.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			New Liberal leader working in partnership with the SNP and smaller parties would probably have 120 seats. So perhaps a three way split or a Tory/Labour alliance.

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A labour mp said yesterday in the HOC that we could end up with the same hung parliament we have now. I can see this happening as there are some very stupid people living in the UK.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2019)

If I was in charge of the Labour campaign... Right now I'd be organising a big red bus with a huge picture of JR-M emblazoned across it... Writ with a message along the the lines of... Do you really want Toffs in charge of your country?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If I was in charge of the Labour campaign... Right now I'd be organising a big red bus with a huge picture of JR-M emblazoned across it... Writ with a message along the the lines of... Do you really want Toffs in charge of your country?
		
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That is a simple and very effective message


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If I was in charge of the Labour campaign... Right now I'd be organising a big red bus with a huge picture of JR-M emblazoned across it... Writ with a message along the the lines of... Do you really want Toffs in charge of your country?
		
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I'd be in corbyns ear saying stand down. 

Let Keir Starmer lead the party .... Give Boris some proper comp


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## Grant85 (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do I get to sleep at night afterwards though? How will I get clean? It would be like cheering a Man Utd goal or wanting Liverpool to win the PL 

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It's just the nature of politics. People are stupidly idealistic if they think a party or candidate will mirror their views exactly. 

I guess I've been fortunate in that I've been able to vote SNP and had a very clear conscious and been fairly motivated to do that. I don't agree with everyone and everything, but they are clearly the party most suited to my views.  

If they weren't standing or I lived elsewhere, I would almost certainly still vote - but would end up voting tactically or voting for the least bad candidate. 

I guess there will be pro-remain Tories who will feel homeless - especially if the Lib Dems have no chance of winning in their seat. 

In Scotland, there will definitely be pro-remain people in an SNP / Tory marginal who won't agree with independence, but will have to make a decision. 

Spoiler Effect
Worth reading this for people considering voting for parties who are a poor 3rd or worse in their area.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2019)

Well for me the option is to spoil the paper - there is not one single party I would vote for.


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If I was in charge of the Labour campaign... Right now I'd be organising a big red bus with a huge picture of JR-M emblazoned across it... Writ with a message along the the lines of... Do you really want Toffs in charge of your country?
		
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 The trouble is that in a very large part of England the answer would be yes.


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## Scoobiesnax (Oct 30, 2019)

At this moment in time I'll be voting Tory.


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## jp5 (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well for me the option is to spoil the paper - there is not one single party I would vote for.
		
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Fair enough, but that just means those with the more dogmatic views will have greater sway on the result (FPTP aside).


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## jp5 (Oct 30, 2019)

Could also very realistically seeing Farage's BXP gaining a lot of votes but not many seats off the Tories, and letting Corbyn in. Suspect they'll need to arrange a pact fairly swiftly.


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## drdel (Oct 30, 2019)

The last 3 years has further entrenched voters' views so minds wont change and the next few weeks will just be a media circus. Heading for no clear majority and more mess as the factions fight and main parties loose traction, IMO.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2019)

Neilds said:



			Think you may be confusing Government with Parliament. The way the whole lot have acted in the past couple of years is shameful.
		
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Bit of both. It has definitely been a poor show from all sides of the house over Brexit but very apathetic towards Boris and the Tory party. However the alternative (especially with a majority) is far worse


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 30, 2019)

I have always been left leaning, but JC is just a no from me. However itâ€™s obvious the B word is the only subject, so it will be a party I have never voted for before getting my vote, as although a spoilt paper sends a message it doesnâ€™t give my view on the B word.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

Best slogan so farâ€¦......'Let's stuff the Christmas turkey'.
I think it was from the Labour camp.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd be in corbyns ear saying stand down. 

Let Keir Starmer lead the party .... Give Boris some proper comp
		
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For Labour to advance they need to clear the decks completely and take on a new leader who has had no time at the top table previously...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Handcock immediately raising the stupidity bar with 'A vote for any other party would let Corbyn in'
Any minute now we will hear a Labour spokesperson respond with 'A vote for any other party would let Johnson back in'.
		
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...and whilst Hancock ended up saying that government trade officials would never sit down with the US on trade with the cost of medicines on the table - he wouldn't explain why over recent weeks and months government trade officials have been sitting down with US trade officials (or big pharma) with the cost of medicines on the table.

Doesn't exactly bode well for an open and honest airing of what's going to be on offer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It's just the nature of politics. People are stupidly idealistic if they think a party or candidate will mirror their views exactly.

I guess I've been fortunate in that I've been able to vote SNP and had a very clear conscious and been fairly motivated to do that. I don't agree with everyone and everything, but they are clearly the party most suited to my views. 

If they weren't standing or I lived elsewhere, I would almost certainly still vote - but would end up voting tactically or voting for the least bad candidate.

I guess there will be pro-remain Tories who will feel homeless - especially if the Lib Dems have no chance of winning in their seat.

In Scotland, there will definitely be pro-remain people in an SNP / Tory marginal who won't agree with independence, but will have to make a decision.

Spoiler Effect
Worth reading this for people considering voting for parties who are a poor 3rd or worse in their area.
		
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Was up home in Mearns quite a bit in lead up to 2015 election and from what I heard of her I thought Kirsten Oswald was fine - guessing she'll be the EastRen candidate again. I was also rather impressed by the ability of the SNP to organise and mobilise mass motor 'cavalcades' - the SNP seem really well organised on the ground.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

I live in an very strong remain area but also a Tory stronghold... if tory are the party of brexit i wonder what that will mean for my current MP.


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## Cherry13 (Oct 30, 2019)

Interesting time in Jarrow.  Currently Stephen Hepburn is suspended from labour and likely to lose backing.  A decade old sexual harassment case.  Heâ€™s been in post since 97, and is seen very much as part of a political â€œfamilyâ€ that has dominated the seat for generations. 

The interesting part will be if he decides to run as an independent, I think itâ€™s unlikely, but it could feasibly split the labour vote in half.  Therefore paving the way for BxP to pick up a seat.  The tories could descend from god himself and Jarrow still wouldnâ€™t vote them in! 
60% leave constituency, although Nissan right on the doorstep.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I live in an very strong remain area but also a Tory stronghold... if tory are the party of brexit i wonder what that will mean for my current MP.
		
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Very pro exit here in Havering , conservative strong hold 

I remember writing to my mp once when I saw a house fire and the fire service selflessly running in saving lifes (just as Boris was closing fire stations ) she actually defended the policy of closing them in her letter back 

For me that's when I moved away from the conservatives. I couldn't back a party who would defend closures of such an important service that anyone could need at any time.

They want the NHS gone, have for years but money you can see right they pay for their care that's why they don't care about others 

But the fire service? Could be their house on fire ! Or a loved one.. money won't save you then


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Makes no sense Tashy, you want the worst tory government in living history to continue for 5 more years in the hope we get a decent opposition the next time. So more of the same damage for 5yrs at what cost?
Maybe, just maybe, people should look at all the Party manifestoâ€™s and make the decision on that rather than personalities as itâ€™s very unlikely those Labour MPâ€™s will lose their seats, and if they lose the election itâ€™s only likely Corbyn will no longer be leader.
		
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Better the devil you know is my train of thought. The Torys are terrible, the Labour Party are diabolical. If that is the best that Labour can do when we have the worst Government in living history. A new brush needs to sweep clean in the Labour Party and preferably not whilst there in power. If Labour can sort themselves out and give us a viable alternative, hopefully the Tories may well look at themselves. If Not Farage will be rubbing his hands.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must be tough being an English voter not one honest party to vote for apart from the Greens or any Independents.
Lots of spoiled ballot papers I think.
		
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Comedy gold ðŸ‘


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## Grant85 (Oct 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was up home in Mearns quite a bit in lead up to 2015 election and from what I heard of her I thought Kirsten Oswald was fine - guessing she'll be the EastRen candidate again. I was also rather impressed by the ability of the SNP to organise and mobilise mass motor 'cavalcades' - the SNP seem really well organised on the ground.
		
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She is standing again.  

FWIW, I think the Tory - Paul Masterton - is a decent chap. But has certainly allowed himself to get dragged into voting for Brexit and didn't do anything when a number of Tories were standing up against No Deal (and losing the whip).  

I'm sure under non-constitutional terms, he'd have a good chance of winning comfortably given the demographics of the seat.  

However, I'm not sure how it will play out in anti-independence / pro-remain East Ren. I'd guess the Tory vote will split and the SNP might win narrowly, with people making the assessment that the EU is the main issue of the day.


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## SatchFan (Oct 30, 2019)

Similar to other posters on here, my mind is already made up so I intend to avoid all the election lies and drivel and will only tune in for the results. My wife is quite pleased as she will make a fair bit as a Returning Officer and postal vote packing. I might even get a decent Christmas present this year.


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## patricks148 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Better the devil you know is my train of thought. The Torys are terrible, the Labour Party are diabolical. If that is the best that Labour can do when we have the worst Government in living history. A new brush needs to sweep clean in the Labour Party and preferably not whilst there in power. If Labour can sort themselves out and give us a viable alternative, hopefully the Tories may well look at themselves. If Not Farage will be rubbing his hands.
		
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So which are the particular Labour Policy you don't agree with and which Tory ones you do?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Better the devil you know is my train of thought. The Torys are terrible, the Labour Party are diabolical. If that is the best that Labour can do when we have the worst Government in living history. A new brush needs to sweep clean in the Labour Party and preferably not whilst there in power. If Labour can sort themselves out and give us a viable alternative, hopefully the Tories may well look at themselves. If Not Farage will be rubbing his hands.
		
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So, you actually agree that it is tough being an English voter 
Who are you going to support ? [ or will you spoil your ballot paper or abstain.]


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Cherry13 said:



			Interesting time in Jarrow.  Currently Stephen Hepburn is suspended from labour and likely to lose backing.  A decade old sexual harassment case.  Heâ€™s been in post since 97, and is seen very much as part of a political â€œfamilyâ€ that has dominated the seat for generations.

The interesting part will be if he decides to run as an independent, I think itâ€™s unlikely, but it could feasibly split the labour vote in half.  Therefore paving the way for BxP to pick up a seat.  The tories could descend from god himself and Jarrow still wouldnâ€™t vote them in!
60% leave constituency, although Nissan right on the doorstep.
		
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Whoever stands with the red rosette on their coat will win. I know SH is very much part of the fabric but ultimately Jarrow constituency is a Labour one, not a SH one. Will he get his case looked at in time?

It will be a good test of the Brexit party. Will the desire to leave over ride the default to vote Labour. I suspect the leave vote in the ref was as much to do with a protest against Westminster and to bloody the nose of the govt as it was to actually leave the EU. Do you think Brexit party will do well there?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

Last PMQ's for John Bercow, decent man who did a difficult job well.
Probably last PMQ's for most of the 13 Scots Tory MP's, least said about them the best.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So which are the particular Labour Policy you don't agree with and which Tory ones you do?
		
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You have unwittingly answered your own question there policies, let's take the most important thing this country has discussed in the last three and a half years. What exactly was there policy. It changed from day to day, one day they support a GE, the next they don't. I am a floating voter, the Torys are Rammel, Labour bigger Rammel. Lib dems a joke. I am all for changing your mind, I will sit on the fence when it comes to a lot of matters before I make up my mind. But to change your mind/ policy because it is popular, a favourite Labour trait. Is changing it for the wrong reasons.


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## patricks148 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You have unwittingly answered your own question there policies, let's take the most important thing this country has discussed in the last three and a half years. What exactly was there policy. It changed from day to day, one day they support a GE, the next they don't. I am a floating voter, the Torys are Rammel, Labour bigger Rammel. Lib dems a joke. I am all for changing your mind, I will sit on the fence when it comes to a lot of matters before I make up my mind. But to change your mind/ policy because it is popular, a favourite Labour trait. Is changing it for the wrong reasons.
		
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Election Policy, not Brexit its only the Torys and Ukip that wanted it a few years ago.
Ok i'll ask in a different way, apart from Brixit,, which wasn't a thing until recently,  what policies of the Labour party don't you like?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2019)

Seriously considering the Green Party for the first time in a GE. As I'm increasingly convinced they are the only party that will address the major issue facing society before it's too late. 

Other parties too focused on hard line versions of their political ideologies or Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If I was in charge of the Labour campaign... Right now I'd be organising a big red bus with a huge picture of JR-M emblazoned across it... Writ with a message along the the lines of... *Do you really want Toffs in charge of your country?*

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Sad thing is that I think due to our embedded class system a lot of people still do.


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2019)

Not sure how the whole interview went, but the edited one is a bit of comedy gold



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189500412996608003


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## Cherry13 (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Whoever stands with the red rosette on their coat will win. I know SH is very much part of the fabric but ultimately Jarrow constituency is a Labour one, not a SH one. Will he get his case looked at in time?

It will be a good test of the Brexit party. Will the desire to leave over ride the default to vote Labour. I suspect the leave vote in the ref was as much to do with a protest against Westminster and to bloody the nose of the govt as it was to actually leave the EU. Do you think Brexit party will do well there?
		
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I think sadly youâ€™re right regarding blind faith to the rosette.  Although Iâ€™m historically a labour supporter I would like to see more challenge and pressure applied in constituencies which they take for granted.  For too long people like SH have been negligent to constituents and not had any challenge. 

In terms of his case; I believe theyâ€™ve cancelled all trigger ballots but are likely to remove support for him.  (Chris Williamson and kelvin Hopkins who are all currently suspended are in the same boat) 

Iâ€™m not 100% sure but I believe the Brexit party member is an ex Tory councillor, doesnâ€™t seem a wise move. I think theyâ€™ll only stand a chance if SH runs and splits the vote.


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## Cherry13 (Oct 30, 2019)

Cherry13 said:



			I think sadly youâ€™re right regarding blind faith to the rosette.  Although Iâ€™m historically a labour supporter I would like to see more challenge and pressure applied in constituencies which they take for granted.  For too long people like SH have been negligent to constituents and not had any challenge.

In terms of his case; I believe theyâ€™ve cancelled all trigger ballots but are likely to remove support for him.  (Chris Williamson and kelvin Hopkins who are all currently suspended are in the same boat)

Iâ€™m not 100% sure but I believe the Brexit party member is an ex Tory councillor, doesnâ€™t seem a wise move. I think theyâ€™ll only stand a chance if SH runs and splits the vote.
		
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Iâ€™m not sure where it all goes from a legal stand point mind if suspended pending an investigation and then they remove support.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Election Policy, not Brexit its only the Torys and Ukip that wanted it a few years ago.
Ok i'll ask in a different way, apart from Brixit,, which wasn't a thing until recently,  what policies of the Labour party don't you like?
		
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But that's just it, it does not have to be about just about policies. I am a miner by trade. Labour have had millions out of my unions. The miners pensions are being robbed by Tory governments. The Labour party had a chance to rectify that brown and Bliar both ignored our pension robbery. Guess what, labour mps say they will now fight our case, nowt to do with righting a wrong, more to do with wanting votes. They are not doing it for the right reason, they are doing it for popularity. 
How much better off per week under labour or the tory party will the average household be financially worth. A quid here or there. Yet my personal pension I must be Â£50- 100 per week worse off. Labour could of sorted that.
 Let's not talk about "the banks empty note" when the Torys took over. What about a war Bliar took us into over WMD. For me its not just about policies.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 30, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189555956566372355


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## JamesR (Oct 30, 2019)

My MP, whether I supported the Tories or not, cannot seriously get my vote.

She stated on Twitter that she thought Esther McVey should be PMðŸ¥´.
As she is obviously delusional ðŸ¤’ I donâ€™t believe she should be allowed back into parliament.
So anyone but Pauline Latham has a chanceðŸ‘


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 30, 2019)

Our lass, who will lose her payroll job come brexit is too lazy to have re registered to vote as we moved home and have her say against brexit. She doesnâ€™t watch the news and scourns at my viewing of BBC Parliament. I suspect she isnt aware of the upcoming election. And I ainâ€™t telling her either! 

Not decided who Iâ€™m voting for yet, I need to see campaign reactions. despite my Conservative party membership but it will be a pro brexit one.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

Was looking in my area at the options.
Frankly speaking Toryâ€™s have Borisâ€™ deal, Labour sat on the fence so could leave or stay but are talking about a possible deal that has yet to be negotiated (pie in the sky until done) , Lib Dem- stay.
Greens - stay
Independent- pointless no one knows and will be courted by the mainstream parties ( possible champagne sipping turn coat!)
So for me itâ€™s simple forget all the other stuff itâ€™s totally pointless this is about Brexit and that needs to be squared away before we can concentrate properly on national policy.
So itâ€™s a case of make your decision, break with convention and make your Brexit opinion heard.


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

Voting in Christchurch for the first time. Despite his unpopularity with how he goes about business in the commons I struggle to see how Christopher Chope will not be re-elected, he has a 25,000 majority in an area that voted strongly to leave. So we get a nicely acrimonious campaign that ultimately counts for nothing as he gets re-elected with a decent majority. Only tiny possibility would be if a decent independent stood against him


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 30, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Knowing this forum it will be a Tory landslide so not much point. 

Click to expand...

No, don't think so.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 30, 2019)

Noddy dog Butler on Peston tonight, might have to watch just to see if shes actually speaks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 30, 2019)

fundy said:



			Voting in Christchurch for the first time. Despite his unpopularity with how he goes about business in the commons I struggle to see how Christopher Chope will not be re-elected, he has a 25,000 majority in an area that voted strongly to leave. So we get a nicely acrimonious campaign that ultimately counts for nothing as he gets re-elected with a decent majority. Only tiny possibility would be if a decent independent stood against him
		
Click to expand...

Like a lot of things, the press give half a story and go for sensational headlines, where half a truth becomes an untruth.
His opposition to some Bills was done because he wished there to be proper scrutiny of the " wished for" law. IIRC, he wanted the subject matter properly scrutinised and presented and in that event, he would have voted for it.
However, perhaps his opposition in principle, though merited in some respects, may have meant the matter might never get introduced as legislation, so he should have weighed this in his judgement. That may have been his failing,rather than the apparent opposition to what was being proposed.
In respect of at least one emotive subject it could seem very uncaring.
He clearly, to my mind, puts much importance on the means to an end: sometimes though the end is overwhelmingly vital.


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## patricks148 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			But that's just it, it does not have to be about just about policies. I am a miner by trade. Labour have had millions out of my unions. The miners pensions are being robbed by Tory governments. The Labour party had a chance to rectify that brown and Bliar both ignored our pension robbery. Guess what, labour mps say they will now fight our case, nowt to do with righting a wrong, more to do with wanting votes. They are not doing it for the right reason, they are doing it for popularity.
How much better off per week under labour or the tory party will the average household be financially worth. A quid here or there. Yet my personal pension I must be Â£50- 100 per week worse off. Labour could of sorted that.
Let's not talk about "the banks empty note" when the Torys took over. What about a war Bliar took us into over WMD. For me its not just about policies.
		
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Obviously you just want to pick the bad thing under labour... and forget the the positives in workers rights, the NHS, etc etc..good for you Maggie will be proud of you


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Like a lot of things, the press give half a story and go for sensational headlines, where half a truth becomes an untruth.
His opposition to some Bills was done because he wished there to be proper scrutiny of the " wished for" law. IIRC, he wanted the subject matter properly scrutinised and presented and in that event, he would have voted for it.
However, perhaps his opposition in principle, though merited in some respects, may have meant the matter might never get introduced as legislation, so he should have weighed this in his judgement. That may have been his failing,rather than the apparent opposition to what was being proposed.
In respect of at least one emotive subject it could seem very uncaring.
He clearly, to my mind, puts much importance on the means to an end: sometimes though the end is overwhelmingly vital.
		
Click to expand...


I fully understand why he has done a lot of what he has, but I think part of the reason he feels able to do so is that it is such a safe seat as a Tory and that even with the bad press, petitions, local objections etc he is is still a shoe in to retain his seat at the next election. That enables him to make a stance that actually has decent reasoning underpinning it, just that he goes about it in a way that can provoke an emotional reaction in certain situations by putting the procedure and the accuracy over the actual policy sometimes. Pretty sure he wouldnt be acting as he does if he had a marginal seat not such a secure one though


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Obviously you just want to pick the bad thing under labour... and forget the the positives in workers rights, the NHS, etc etc..good for you Maggie will be proud of you

Click to expand...

You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone. 

Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. 250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

 Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone.

*Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. *250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.
		
Click to expand...

Are you seriously saying that ? 

Which poster has just finished a massive round the world holiday , which poster continuely posts about his holidays abroad etc etc etc 

For someone who has been more â€œscrewed over than anyone else â€œ you seem to be doing rather well - 

I think before making statements like that you should considered there are many who prob canâ€™t afford to live the life you do on here.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone. 

Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. 250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

 Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.
		
Click to expand...

Only thing I don't agree with is Corbyn and Abbott aren't the best they have to offer

They have so many decent MPs , potential leaders , cobryn just won the vote he didn't even want to win! He was pushed into leadership he's a protest politician


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Only thing I don't agree with is Corbyn and Abbott aren't the best they have to offer

They have so many decent MPs , potential leaders , cobryn just won the vote he didn't even want to win! He was pushed into leadership he's a protest politician
		
Click to expand...


if thats the case why doesnt he stand down for the good of the party and most likely for the good of the country?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone.

Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. 250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.
		
Click to expand...

I can sympathise completely with your view and I feel the same about the current Labour Party.
IMO the NHS will be cattle trucked if the Tories stay in power, and I am pretty unsure that the current Labour Party know what to do with it.
Frankly speaking we have too extreme main parties one far left and one far right ...


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I can sympathise completely with your view and I feel the same about the current Labour Party.
IMO the NHS will be cattle trucked if the Tories stay in power, and I am pretty unsure that the current Labour Party know what to do with it.
Frankly speaking we have too extreme main parties one far left and one far right ...
		
Click to expand...

ly one 

harpo, in October 1992 the tories announced the closure of 30 pits. mine was one of them. i had moved house in March 1992 and had took on a 35k mortgage. i sat at the top of the garden, head in hands, tears in my eyes thinking wtf. how will i cope. Maggie did that. my loathing of the Tories is only matched by the inept performance of this current shower of crap that claim to be the opposition party. they should be smashing this Tory party. not just beating them. There is only one question to ask. Why not.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

fundy said:



			if thats the case why doesnt he stand down for the good of the party and most likely for the good of the country?
		
Click to expand...

this is what i am hoping for, i don't do short posts though


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			this is what i am hoping for, i don't do short posts though 

Click to expand...

we know tashy, its not a tashy post unless its a ramble


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 30, 2019)

Its very important people vote if they can.


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Its very important people vote if they can.
		
Click to expand...

why?

what use is me voting in a consituency where the incumbent has a 25k majority and I wouldnt wipe the current leaders of the main parties off the bottom of my shoes if I trod in them? this is from someone who has voted in every single election i have been able to since the very early 1990s (town,local, general, european etc etc)  seriously, the whole lot of them currently are an utter disgrace, why is it important that I vote?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			ly one

harpo, in October 1992 the tories announced the closure of 30 pits. mine was one of them. i had moved house in March 1992 and had took on a 35k mortgage. i sat at the top of the garden, head in hands, tears in my eyes thinking wtf. how will i cope. Maggie did that. my loathing of the Tories is only matched by the inept performance of this current shower of crap that claim to be the opposition party. they should be smashing this Tory party. not just beating them. There is only one question to ask. Why not.
		
Click to expand...

John Major was Tory PM in 92, Thatcher was finished in 1990.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 30, 2019)

fundy said:



			why?
		
Click to expand...

We are lucky to have a functioning democracy, there are countries around the world where votes mean little or people canâ€™t even vote.

If people can vote they should try to, especially now eyes are on this result around the world more than normal. A record turnout would be something amazing.


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			We are lucky to have a functioning democracy, there are countries around the world where votes mean little or people canâ€™t even vote.

If people can vote they should try to, especially now eyes are on this result around the world more than normal. A record turnout would be something amazing.
		
Click to expand...


why would a record turn out be amazing? why does it matter what the eyes round the world think and why do they care about turnout % in a british election?

for me a really low turnout would prove what an utter show the current encumbents and their opposition are

what am i missing?


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			We are lucky to have a functioning democracy, there are countries around the world where votes mean little./QUOTE]
You're talking about the UK here...?
		
Click to expand...


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 30, 2019)

fundy said:



			for me a really low turnout would prove what an utter show the current encumbents and their opposition are
		
Click to expand...

I can see your point there but my feelings towards voting outweigh that for me, only just though as I agree with your sentiment but not how to act on it.

I still feel strongly that it shouldnâ€™t stop people and I bet there are a lot who feel the same way as you in regards to voting.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			John Major was Tory PM in 92, Thatcher was finished in 1990.
		
Click to expand...

And he was a plonk, followed by more plonks .. and chancellors who knew sweet FA.
They took us to recession and my parents never recovered.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			And he was a plonk, followed by more plonks .. and chancellors who knew sweet FA.
They took us to recession and my parents never recovered.
		
Click to expand...

Just confused Tashy blaming Thatcher, wasnâ€™t she the PM during the strike? Surely that was the time to get upset at her?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			And he was a plonk, followed by more plonks .. and chancellors who knew sweet FA.
They took us to recession and my parents never recovered.
		
Click to expand...

Which recession was that ? There was one in 91 and then in 2008 ?


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2019)

Lots of MPs standing down this time round.
Ours confirmed this afternoon that he was going...
Tories could put up a dead hedgehog as a candidate and it would comp home with a 10-15k majority.....


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2019)

At this point in time what do we see. Given the distrust of the Tories, the loathing of Corbyn and lack of ANO party getting a majority are we not heading back to a hung government and reliant on other party support and deals. We've seen in the current sitting hoe ineffectual that is, especially on Brexit. What is best case/worse case scenario


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I can see your point there but my feelings towards voting outweigh that for me, only just though as I agree with your sentiment but not how to act on it.

I still feel strongly that it shouldnâ€™t stop people and I bet there are a lot who feel the same way as you in regards to voting.
		
Click to expand...


Have always been the same, a big advocate of you have to vote, if you dont vote then you have no right to criticise etc etc. For the first time I genuinely have no idea who to vote for or why but I could bore you for an hour + on why not to vote for them. I have zero respect for the self serving nature of the majority of them


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which recession was that ? There was one in 91 and then in 2008 ?
		
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91, we started to feel it from 90 till about 95.
He could have folded the business and told the creditors hard luck, instead he did the decent thing and paid them off.
The bank jacked up the interest rates and forced them into loans .. interest rates were pretty stupidly high. 
The lesson for me was just look at your mortgage and think if interest rates grow to 14% how much will it cost .. The 2008 recession was nothing, never felt it, did not touch them or me. He was winding down for retirement so wasnâ€™t bothered he was doing little bits. 
First I knew about 2008 recession was the ironing lady say she could not justify coming to us because her major banking client was leaving for the Caribbean- he must have known it was going sh*t shaped.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2019)

fundy said:



			we know tashy, its not a tashy post unless its a rammel ramble 

Click to expand...

sorted Fundy


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## Captainron (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you seriously saying that ?

Which poster has just finished a massive round the world holiday , which poster continuely posts about his holidays abroad etc etc etc

For someone who has been more â€œscrewed over than anyone else â€œ you seem to be doing rather well -

I think before making statements like that you should considered there are many who prob canâ€™t afford to live the life you do on here.
		
Click to expand...

I thought this too.


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Its very important people vote if they can.
		
Click to expand...

Wrong!

Its very important that people have the choice. That is THE freedom, the freedom to choose. And deciding not to vote is exercising that choice as much as voting for someone is.

But a question back at you. If not one single person/party is worthy of your vote do you think you should still vote?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must be tough being an English voter not one honest party to vote for apart from the Greens or any Independents.
Lots of spoiled ballot papers I think.
		
Click to expand...

Your right crap all of them.
Caught the greens candidate putting a leaflet through my door and asked him.â€ Is this recycled paper â€œ he didnâ€™t know.
First question without a proper answer.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wrong!

Its very important that people have the choice
		
Click to expand...

Canâ€™t fault that, people MUST have the choice.

My opinion is that people should then choose to vote if they can, and not choose to not with an excuse. Some people do have legitimate reasons not to however and that must be respected.



Hobbit said:



			But a question back at you. If not one single person/party is worthy of your vote do you think you should still vote?
		
Click to expand...

I would still want to turn out, I still choose to vote. There are legal ways to turn up but not cast a vote for a particular candidate.


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2019)

If someone wants my vote they have to earn it and right now, no-one that I can see deserves it.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone.

Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. 250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.
		
Click to expand...

What personal insults are these?i asked you what policy labour had you didn't like  and all you came back with was brexit and labour screwed you over and left no money in the treasury.

Corbyn may not be your saviour but against the other candidates for LL he is who the party voted for. but he at least has stuck to his guns though his political career, maybe the big change this countty needs, as for a abbott, i don't judge her on what is sprouted by the Right wing press.  Jezzer was picked by the Membership of the labour party, would someone else be more appealing to floaters, probably.. but thats not who the membership voted for...

As for screwing over the Miners. Maggie did that, she also stripped the unions of its money and power to undermine the Labour party in essence, undid may of the good things it had done for this country, as for Labour not standing up for the miners i would read a few history books if i were you rather than the Daily mail. As for leaving the Treasury empty, a bit of right wing spin by the incoming Tory Gov, When Labour took power in 97 they inherited a deficit left by the torys. and dont forget the banking Crisis all caused by the deregulation of banking and the shift to banking services by the torys, so you think a conservative Gov wouldn't have bailed the banks out??

at the moment we have a society where the rich are getting richer, hundreds of thousands using food banks, the NHS in crisis and about to be flogged of to the yanks. Rail networks making huge profits without delivery any service like many of the Idustrys that were denationalsed water etc. Where companys pay millions to failing CEO, laying of manay many workers.

in the 80 and 90 the torys wanted Victorian Values, we a heading that way.., with a sprinkling of American values to boot, workers rights kicked to the kerb.

I for one don't want to go back that for this country


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

Corbyn wears a green tie yest for grenfill 

Some Tory's MPs mock him about the colour 

They really are out of touch


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Corbyn wears a green tie yest for grenfill

Some Tory's MPs mock him about the colour

They really are out of touch
		
Click to expand...

yesterday it was falling asleep on a train, after an 18 hour day visiting hosps and factorys....in standard class. Torys' just showing themselves what they are TBH... something i'm not allowed to say on here as an infraction would follow


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Corbyn wears a green tie yest for grenfill

Some Tory's MPs mock him about the colour

They really are out of touch
		
Click to expand...

Potential fake news there as there are multiple other reports that he wasnâ€™t being mocked for the colour ( because they all were wearing something green )


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Potential fake news there as there are multiple other reports that he wasnâ€™t being mocked for the colour ( because they all were wearing something green )
		
Click to expand...

Not according to every news outlet and itâ€™s unlikely the Mail would stick up for him.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ory-MPs-mocking-Jeremy-Corbyns-green-tie.html


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## Jacko_G (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Makes no sense Tashy, you want the worst tory government in living history to continue for 5 more years in the hope we get a decent opposition the next time. So more of the same damage for 5yrs at what cost?
Maybe, just maybe, people should look at all the Party manifestoâ€™s and make the decision on that rather than personalities as itâ€™s very unlikely those Labour MPâ€™s will lose their seats, and if they lose the election itâ€™s only likely Corbyn will no longer be leader.
		
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Vote for a terrorist sympathiser. No thanks. 

That's one off the list.

SNP will destroy Torries off the map up here, down south Torries will win again and we start all this pathetic Brexit nonsense again..

Democracy - having a bloody laugh.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Vote for a terrorist sympathiser. No thanks.

That's one off the list.

SNP will destroy Torries off the map up here, down south Torries will win again and we start all this pathetic Brexit nonsense again..

Democracy - having a bloody laugh.
		
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its hope so... No Torys and no Jo Swinson with any luck.... all i can see is the Libs jumping in bed with the Torys at the first Oppo


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## PieMan (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yesterday it was falling asleep on a train, after an 18 hour day visiting hosps and factorys....in standard class. Torys' just showing themselves what they are TBH... something i'm not allowed to say on here as an infraction would follow

Click to expand...

Interesting that when Labour came into Government under Blair - and for their entire time in office - they abused the public purse far greater than any Tory Minister I worked for ever did. Perfectly acceptable Ministerial Private Offices refurbished to the cost of tens of millions of Â£'s; 1st class travel everywhere; top of the range Jaguars for their official vehicles. A Secretary of State I worked for used to hire planes from the Royal Squadron for all her trips to Europe.

But there you go, nothing like a bit of stereotyping is there!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Vote for a terrorist sympathiser. No thanks.

That's one off the list.

SNP will destroy Torries off the map up here, down south Torries will win again and we start all this pathetic Brexit nonsense again..

Democracy - having a bloody laugh.
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully Iâ€™m not in his constituency so will be voting for my local Labour candidate.

Letâ€™s try remember history is littered with people on both sides of the divide meeting terrorists or working with them, the tories had a councillor who was a member of the IRA, TM sacked 1 minister over security leaks and another over the Isreali Government in secret, both brought back by boris.

Weâ€™ll never move forward by continually looking back.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Interesting that when Labour came into Government under Blair - and for their entire time in office - they abused the public purse far greater than any Tory Minister I worked for ever did. Perfectly acceptable Ministerial Private Offices refurbished to the cost of tens of millions of Â£'s; 1st class travel everywhere; top of the range Jaguars for their official vehicles. A Secretary of State I worked for used to hire planes from the Royal Squadron for all her trips to Europe.

But there you go, nothing like a bit of stereotyping is there! 

Click to expand...

Great but whats that got to do with Jezza and what i posted?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			What personal insults are these?i asked you what policy labour had you didn't like  and all you came back with was brexit and labour screwed you over and left no money in the treasury.

Corbyn may not be your saviour *but against the other candidates for LL he is who the party voted for.* but he at least has stuck to his guns though his political career, maybe the big change this countty needs, as for a abbott, i don't judge her on what is sprouted by the Right wing press.  Jezzer was picked by the Membership of the labour party, would someone else be more appealing to floaters, probably.. but thats not who the membership voted for...

As for screwing over the Miners. Maggie did that, she also stripped the unions of its money and power to undermine the Labour party in essence, undid may of the good things it had done for this country, as for Labour not standing up for the miners i would read a few history books if i were you rather than the Daily mail. As for leaving the Treasury empty, a bit of right wing spin by the incoming Tory Gov, When Labour took power in 97 they inherited a deficit left by the torys. and dont forget the banking Crisis all caused by the deregulation of banking and the shift to banking services by the torys, so you think a conservative Gov wouldn't have bailed the banks out??

at the moment we have a society where the rich are getting richer, hundreds of thousands using food banks, the NHS in crisis and about to be flogged of to the yanks. Rail networks making huge profits without delivery any service like many of the Idustrys that were denationalsed water etc. Where companys pay millions to failing CEO, laying of manay many workers.

in the 80 and 90 the torys wanted Victorian Values, we a heading that way.., with a sprinkling of American values to boot, workers rights kicked to the kerb.

I for one don't want to go back that for this country
		
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For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine. When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine. When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.
		
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Enough against Johnson for me


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine. When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.
		
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Why did they have the vote Tashy?
Was it because he wasnâ€™t the leader the MPâ€™s wanted? And they didnâ€™t back the democratic wishes of Labour Party members? Now, were have I heard that one before


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## jp5 (Oct 31, 2019)

Farage denying Johnson a majority and instead installing Corbyn in No.10 is going to be rather amusing.


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## PieMan (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Great but whats that got to do with Jezza and what i posted?
		
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Making him out to be some kind of hero travelling standard class on a train and visiting hospitals and factories - so basically just doing his job........just like every other party leader and MP (whether they be Labour, Tory, Lib Dem etc). But hey, it's Jezza - man of the people!


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Making him out to be some kind of hero travelling standard class on a train and visiting hospitals and factories - so basically just doing his job........just like every other party leader and MP (whether they be Labour, Tory, Lib Dem etc). But hey, it's Jezza - man of the people!
		
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So nothing then.. my post was about Torys mocking him for being alsleep on a train...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Making him out to be some kind of hero travelling standard class on a train and visiting hospitals and factories - so basically just doing his job........just like every other party leader and MP (whether they be Labour, Tory, Lib Dem etc). But hey, it's Jezza - man of the people!
		
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Seriously, JC is horrible, but the Daily Mail is far worse publishing the picture claiming he was unpatriotic because he was asleep on a train during the England v All Blacks match. 
The media are pulling our strings which leads to threads and posts like this!


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## 2blue (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

*I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine.* When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.
		
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I see you're still following the Tory Press.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Pat, your personal insults aside. You last post quite frankly is pathetic and shows exactly what is wrong with this forum. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I cannot do anymore. Try to understand this. I am a floating voter. As are millions of others in this country. That's why we get differant partys that govern every so often. The Torys are a shower of Shiote. The Labour Party are a bigger shower of Shiote. Being a floating voter who over the years has voted Labour, Tory and Libs, lib dems. I can say it as I see it. You with your rose tinted glasss cannot. There is another blog going on in the OOB. It is about what's wrong with some folk on this forum. It should but it won't strike a chord with you. Understand this. Not everyone has the same view as you ( or me) and if you don't like it, and cannot accept it. Well the forum will have it own mini version of Brexit where no one respects anyone.

Pat as a collier I have been screwed over more than anyone on this forum. 250,000 miners lost there jobs in an industry I loved. We knew the Tories were our sworn enemy. The Labour party could of been our saviour. They were not. We financially supported them through thick and thin and they Shoit on us from a great height, and yet I am now to forget.

Here's a simple question for you. Is Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn the best that Labour has to offer. If they are they will spend a long time in the wilderness. I will be the first to stand up and say I am praying for a rejuvanated Labour, this present bunch are unfit to govern, but I have already said that.
		
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yeah and when it got tough you scabbed and screwed over a lot of people. 
Knob


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine. When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.
		
Click to expand...

Jezzer was voted for by Labour party Members, rather a lot of them, 3 times the amout that voted for BJ, it was blairite MPs that voted against him

how have you answered? i asked you about labour policy and all you come back with is anti Jezzer,  and again you show your ignorance.. scotland isnt turning agaist Socilast ideals its turning SNP to get away from the south right wing domination of the UK. there would be very few torn between BJ or jezza... Scotland doesn't want BJ full stop.

as for that state of this country most of what we have now is down to the torys, past and present. i for one don't want to be govnd by them any more


how would she, her goal was to turn working men from working class areas in to Tory voters, ... FYI , ive never voted Tory and never would out of Principle..


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## PieMan (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So nothing then.. my post was about Torys mocking him for being alsleep on a train...
		
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So Labour MPs don't mock Boris then in the HoC?


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For one who sticks to his principals. Quote

On 28 June (2016) he lost the vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172â€“40.[95] He responded with a statement that the motion had no "constitutional legitimacy" and that he intended to continue as the elected leader.

I to don't want to go back to the 70's, but a terrorist loving leader is not a lover of mine. When he goes I will look  a little bit longer at whether to support Labour. Pat you have again answered your own questions. Your defence of Corbyn ( or is it Labour ) is admirable. But again look at the state of this country. It is a mess, but Labour cannot scratch the surface to make gains against the Tories. They are a spent force in Scotland. According to the BBC news last night even seasoned Labour supporters in there heart lands are leaving them. They like me are torn between the two clowns that are JC and BJ.

You are so staunch in you support of Jezza, Maggie would be proud of you.
		
Click to expand...


Tashy lad, now don't go ruling out Nigel. He's stuck by his guns throughout everything. With everything as it is, and if he gets the right advice on how to conduct himself over the next few weeks and what to say and stay on message (this is very important) he could even win!


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

PieMan said:



			So Labour MPs don't mock Boris then in the HoC?
		
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i don't rember Jezza mocking BJ about anything but his policy, and lieing TBH, never falling asleep on a train


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Farage denying Johnson a majority and instead installing Corbyn in No.10 is going to be rather amusing.
		
Click to expand...

How the hell would that happen??


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jezzer was voted for by Labour party Members, rather a lot of them, 3 times the amout that voted for BJ, it was blairite MPs that voted against him

how have you answered? i asked you about labour policy *and all you come back with is anti Jezzer,*  and again you show your ignorance.. scotland isnt turning agaist Socilast ideals its turning SNP to get away from the south right wing domination of the UK. there would be very few torn between BJ or jezza... Scotland doesn't want BJ full stop.

as for that state of this country most of what we have now is down to the torys, past and present. i for one don't want to be govnd by them any more


how would she, her goal was to turn working men from working class areas in to Tory voters, ... FYI , ive never voted Tory and never would out of Principle.. 

Click to expand...

That's enough isn't it?!!!!!


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Tashy lad, now don't go ruling out Nigel. He's stuck by his guns throughout everything. With everything as it is, and if he gets the right advice on how to conduct himself over the next few weeks and what to say and stay on message (this is very important) he could even win!
		
Click to expand...

what are the Brixit parties other policies, other than Brixit and Arron Banks not being investgated by the EU for Tax havens?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Tashy lad, now don't go ruling out Nigel. He's stuck by his guns throughout everything. With everything as it is, and if he gets the right advice on how to conduct himself over the next few weeks and what to say and stay on message (this is very important) he could even win!
		
Click to expand...

not sure he can win as he'll not have enough candidates to sit in all the seats, he may be able to win a few but my gut is that they won't.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			How the hell would that happen??
		
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Because most people are voting with brexit uppermost in their mind, I suspect.
Thus, if the brexit voters didn't have brexit party on the ballot paper, i think they would vote for Boris.
If, however, a brexit candidate is standing and they vote for him, it weakens the Tory vote. And may do so to the extent that Labour or Lib dem wins that seat.
That is why there has been , and ,hopefully,will be, discussion between Boris and Nigel to get a" brexit "party in a working majority in HoC.
And though of course you don't have to divulge your intentions, I wonder who you would vote for if you had no Brexit party candidate on your ballot paper...
Not remainer Lib DemsðŸ˜‰


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Tashy lad, now don't go ruling out Nigel. He's stuck by his guns throughout everything. With everything as it is, and if he gets the right advice on how to conduct himself over the next few weeks and what to say and stay on message (this is very important) he could even win!
		
Click to expand...

Win what, a seat?
Thatâ€™ll be a first!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So nothing then.. my post was about Torys mocking him for being alsleep on a train...
		
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The right wing dominated press like to indulge in highlighting Jezzas shortcomings... Because they can't quite find it in themselves to lie to the extent that the NHS is safe in Boris's hands... Stuff that the electorate are genuinely interested in...


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## Beezerk (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all i can see is the Libs jumping in bed with the Torys at the first Oppo
		
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How? They are both on opposite sides of the Brexit divide so it would never work. Or am I missing something completely obvious


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			ly one 

harpo, in October 1992 the tories announced the closure of 30 pits. mine was one of them. i had moved house in March 1992 and had took on a 35k mortgage. i sat at the top of the garden, head in hands, tears in my eyes thinking wtf. how will i cope. Maggie did that. my loathing of the Tories is only matched by the inept performance of this current shower of crap that claim to be the opposition party. they should be smashing this Tory party. not just beating them. There is only one question to ask. Why not.
		
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TBH though Tash, Maggie did that to many industries and Chatham Dockyard where both my dad and wifeâ€™s dad worked was one of them. Thousands of jobs lost not only directly but indirectly as well. Unfortunately the control by the unions over the Labour Party has also been just as bad, giving Maggie her fuel and lately the current leader.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously, JC is horrible, but the Daily Mail is far worse publishing the picture claiming he was unpatriotic because he was asleep on a train during the England v All Blacks match. 
The media are pulling our strings which leads to threads and posts like this!
		
Click to expand...

The Labour party need that ex army officer as their leader ..

Then the press can try the old oh your unpatriotic.. he can go here are my medals .. do one


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what are the Brixit parties other policies, other than Brixit and Arron Banks not being investgated by the EU for Tax havens?
		
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Do they need other policies at the moment? The GE is ALL about Brexit. That's why it has been called. Jesus H, BJ hasn't got anything else but Brexit and is saying the same old tired Tory rubbish that we've heard time and time again. Corbin will put policies up, which shows how out of touch he is. Nigel MUST hammer home BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT, and he WILL pick up seats. LD's + everyone else. waste of time. Loony bins the lot of them.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Because most people are voting with brexit uppermost in their mind, I suspect.
Thus, if the brexit voters didn't have brexit party on the ballot paper, i think they would vote for Boris.
If, however, a brexit candidate is standing and they vote for him, it weakens the Tory vote. And may do so to the extent that Labour or Lib dem wins that seat.
That is why there has been , and ,hopefully,will be, discussion between Boris and Nigel to get a" brexit "party in a working majority in HoC.
And though of course you don't have to divulge your intentions, I wonder who you would vote for if you had no Brexit party candidate on your ballot paper...
Not remainer Lib DemsðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

They'll sort this out before declaring candidates.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			How? They are both on opposite sides of the Brexit divide so it would never work. Or am I missing something completely obvious 

Click to expand...

have a look at her voting record,voted for most of the tory measures, power hungry the same as Clegg


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## Beezerk (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			have a look at her voting record,voted for most of the tory measures, power hungry the same as Clegg
		
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I imagine a lot of Lib Dem voters will be remainers, it will go down great cuddling up to the a leave PM.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I imagine a lot of Lib Dem voters will be remainers, it will go down great cuddling up to the a leave PM.
		
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can't imagine it would but as i say she is power crazy same as last time. I'd imagine quite a few felt stabbed in the back over the coalition... but it didn't stop the leadership doing it

with any luck the SNP will pull out all the stops and take her seat


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## Cherry13 (Oct 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Do they need other policies at the moment? The GE is ALL about Brexit. That's why it has been called. Jesus H, BJ hasn't got anything else but Brexit and is saying the same old tired Tory rubbish that we've heard time and time again. Corbin will put policies up, which shows how out of touch he is. Nigel MUST hammer home BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT, and he WILL pick up seats. LD's + everyone else. waste of time. Loony bins the lot of them.
		
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this will be the pivotal battle with in the GE.  How much can Labour change the narrative and get people to focus on manifestos and not just Brexit.  I think 6 weeks might just be enough time to do it.  This is why he wanted no deal off the table. That means he can go to the electorate and say â€˜letâ€™s focus on other areasâ€™ we are more than Brexit blah blah.  It might just work, but to be successful Brexit needs to be quiet for a wee while.  He also needs to be consistent in his message and not dither and change every two days.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 31, 2019)

first bit of trump fake news from the Dalek

@paulwaugh
Â·
15m

This is the key line that got the crowd on their feet:"We will stop them. Labour wonâ€™t let Donald Trump get his hands on our National Health Service. Itâ€™s not for sale, to him or anyone." Cue chants of "NOT FOR SALE!! NOT FOR SALE!!"


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

Another "Once in a lifetime " moment. That's doomed to failure then.


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## stefanovic (Oct 31, 2019)

Just been listening to Corbyn, who was not talking about his love of Marx or the IRA, and his intended romance with Putin, but instead was targeting people like Mike Ashley.
I must be living in a parallel universe because I thought this was effectively the 2nd Brexit referendum.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 31, 2019)

So the Dalek is going to negotiate a new deal, hold a referendum and implement the result, all in 6 months, good luck with that one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Just been listening to Corbyn, who was not talking about his love of Marx or the IRA, and his intended romance with Putin, but instead was targeting people like Mike Ashley.
*I must be living in a parallel universe* because I thought this was effectively the 2nd Brexit referendum.
		
Click to expand...

As far as a lot of this forum was aware you always have been.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So the Dalek is going to negotiate a new deal, hold a referendum and implement the result, all in 6 months, good luck with that one.
		
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Howâ€™s borisâ€™s promised Brexit day going?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			TBH though Tash, Maggie did that to many industries and Chatham Dockyard where both my dad and wifeâ€™s dad worked was one of them. Thousands of jobs lost not only directly but indirectly as well. Unfortunately the control by the unions over the Labour Party has also been just as bad, giving Maggie her fuel and lately the current leader.
		
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This ^^^^ all day long. Look at Labour in Scotland, dead. Why, because the electorate has a genuine opposition in the form of SNP. (Even if they cannot accept democracy as well). Look at the UK as a whole, we have the Torys. Not exactly covering themselves in glory. For me the Unions, and in my case NUM and UDM  have when it comes to the top table done nothing but look after them selves. They are the root of the problems within the Labour Party. Too much money = to much sway.
Again though BM as I say. With the history of Maggie, DC, TM, Boris, History. The state of this country. Why are Labour/JC not smashing the Torys. I honestly believe that were JC not the captain of the Titanic/ Labour. They would have a very good chance of beating the Tories.


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## stefanovic (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			As far as a lot of this forum was aware you always have been.
		
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You'll be out canvassing in your caravan.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			This ^^^^ all day long. Look at Labour in Scotland, dead. Why, because the electorate has a genuine opposition in the form of SNP. (Even if they cannot accept democracy as well). Look at the UK as a whole, we have the Torys. Not exactly covering themselves in glory. For me the Unions, and in my case NUM and UDM  have when it comes to the top table done nothing but look after them selves. They are the root of the problems within the Labour Party. Too much money = to much sway.
*Again though BM as I say. With the history of Maggie, DC, TM, Boris, History. The state of this country. Why are Labour/JC not smashing the Torys. I honestly believe that were JC not the captain of the Titanic/ Labour. They would have a very good chance of beating the Tories*.
		
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OMG I said this the other day. Labour should have won last time and didn't. A much better (charismatic) Tory leader in place now. Labour? No chance. Corbins last hurrah. 

Watch out for Yvette Cooper (where's she gone?) to come out of the woodwork after Labour get beat (thrashed).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			This ^^^^ all day long. Look at Labour in Scotland, dead. Why, because the electorate has a genuine opposition in the form of SNP. (Even if they cannot accept democracy as well). Look at the UK as a whole, we have the Torys. Not exactly covering themselves in glory. For me the Unions, and in my case NUM and UDM  have when it comes to the top table done nothing but look after them selves. They are the root of the problems within the Labour Party. Too much money = to much sway.
Again though BM as I say. With the history of Maggie, DC, TM, Boris, History. The state of this country. Why are Labour/JC not smashing the Torys. I honestly believe that were JC not the captain of the Titanic/ Labour. They would have a very good chance of beating the Tories.
		
Click to expand...

Part of the issue of why Labour isnâ€™t â€œsmashingâ€ them is some of their policies are seen as going backwards, regardless of whether they are good for the Country or not, society has moved on.
The other issue is the media, just look at this forum and the amount of times the JC/Terrorist line is dragged out.
You are very supportive of the Armed Forces, without googling, could you tell me what the Labour Party policy is on the Armed Forces?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			You'll be out canvassing in your caravan.
		
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Hate caravans personally, just accept they are there and thousands upon thousands get pleasure out of them.
Donâ€™t lose any sleep over them.
Howâ€™s your stocks of Tinfoil holding up?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Part of the issue of why Labour isnâ€™t â€œsmashingâ€ them is some of their policies are seen as going backwards, regardless of whether they are good for the Country or not, society has moved on.
The other issue is the media, just look at this forum and the amount of times the JC/Terrorist line is dragged out.
You are very supportive of the Armed Forces, without googling, could you tell me what the Labour Party policy is on the Armed Forces?
		
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Nope, primarily because. I am not interested. Yet there is something in the back of my head showing Corbyn marching round with a CND badge on. Which again tells me, what Labour says and what he does don't go hand in hand.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2019)

Big boost for the SNP as Johnson says he is campaigning in Scotland.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Nope, primarily because. I am not interested. Yet there is something in the back of my head showing Corbyn marching round with a CND badge on. Which again tells me, what Labour says and what he does don't go hand in hand.
		
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Thanks for the honesty, 
Iâ€™d rather have a Government that wants a fully resourced, fully manned and equipped to meet our Defence needs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Howâ€™s borisâ€™s promised Brexit day going?
		
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All his supporters are out spending their Brexit 50p's


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for the honesty, 
Iâ€™d rather have a Government that wants a fully resourced, fully manned and equipped to meet our Defence needs.
View attachment 28456

Click to expand...

Yet Corbyn is the biggest threat to our national security


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really can't be asked now. Government has proved there is no intent to serve the will of the public
		
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I hope you meant Parliament (lead by Mr Bercow)


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			This ^^^^ all day long. Look at Labour in Scotland, dead. Why, because the electorate has a genuine opposition in the form of SNP. (Even if they cannot accept democracy as well). Look at the UK as a whole, we have the Torys. Not exactly covering themselves in glory. For me the Unions, and in my case NUM and UDM  have when it comes to the top table done nothing but look after them selves. They are the root of the problems within the Labour Party. Too much money = to much sway.
Again though BM as I say. With the history of Maggie, DC, TM, Boris, History. The state of this country. Why are Labour/JC not smashing the Torys. I honestly believe that were JC not the captain of the Titanic/ Labour. They would have a very good chance of beating the Tories.
		
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you do know the torys changed the laws around Trade unions and froze assets i would have a read of the Trade union act. i would look into the history of the Labour party and Unions.. its in the name

back in the late 70's there were 13million TU members in 2012 less than half that, that time workers rights and pay rose at record lows.. its no suprise to me you don't have time for Unions


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Nope, primarily because. I am not interested. Yet there is something in the back of my head showing Corbyn marching round with a CND badge on. Which again tells me, what Labour says and what he does don't go hand in hand.
		
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Every year I am more than happy to pin my poppy next to my CND badge and wear both with equal pride... Fairly certain anyone that's been to war and first hand witnessed the atrocities would acknowledge that peace is a whole lot better... âœŒ


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet Corbyn is the biggest threat to our national security
		
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Yet, it was team tory that had a 'leaky' Secretary of State for Defence... TMay rightly sacked him but Boris thinks it's OK to have him back in his team...


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

Something we can probably all agree on, perhaps. A motion has been passed today in the HoC suspending Keith Vaz for 6 months. Horrible man, hopefully he will be de-selected and his constituents will not be faced with wanting to vote Labour but not wanting him.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Every year I am more than happy to pin my poppy next to my CND badge and wear both with equal pride... Fairly certain anyone that's been to war and first hand witnessed the atrocities would acknowledge that peace is a whole lot better... âœŒ
		
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Steve I get that, totally understand that. But someone that supports CND, which again I can understand has to potantially stand with his finger on the doomsday button in defence of this country and he says " nope not Me". Am all for peace, but Putin, Kim, Assad etc as far as I am aware are not members on this forum and do not subscribe to your or mine like minded opinions.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you do know the torys changed the laws around Trade unions and froze assets i would have a read of the Trade union act. i would look into the history of the Labour party and Unions.. its in the name

back in the late 70's there were 13million TU members in 2012 less than half that, that time workers rights and pay rose at record lows.. its no suprise to me you don't have time for Unions

Click to expand...

Pat is you have 5 mins, Google a company called Vendside, Michael ( Mick ) Stevens, Neil Greatrex, Roy Lynk, Arthur Scargill. Have a look at some of there dodgy dealings whilst supposedly representing us. As much as I am anti Labour, Tories, well anything political at this moment in time. My view, loathing and experience of Unions self preservation is a very close second.


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## ger147 (Oct 31, 2019)

If this is the result come polling day, it will be a comfortable majority for Boris...


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for the honesty, 
Iâ€™d rather have a Government that wants a fully resourced, fully manned and equipped to meet our Defence needs.
View attachment 28456

Click to expand...

Who said this.......

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us. A defeat in Northern Ireland would be a defeat indeed."

Yup the shadow Home Secretary ðŸ˜®


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## Cherry13 (Oct 31, 2019)

ger147 said:



			If this is the result come polling day, it will be a comfortable majority for Boris...

View attachment 28457

Click to expand...

I must admit I donâ€™t fully understand election polling, but if you simply extrapolate that percentage out into seats wonâ€™t this give them less seats than they currently have?  

I understand d theyâ€™ll have more seats than the other parties, but not a majority of the house. 

Would be interested to understand if Iâ€™m misinterpretating this though.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Who said this.......

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us. A defeat in Northern Ireland would be a defeat indeed."

Yup the shadow Home Secretary ðŸ˜®
		
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Donâ€™t vote for them then. Problem solved ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			So nothing then.. my post was about Torys mocking him for being alsleep on a train...
		
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And a cameraman just happened to be there. Get real it was the politibureau making him out a man of the proletariat when he's really a millionaire.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Donâ€™t vote for them then. Problem solved ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰
		
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How could anyone?


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And a cameraman just happened to be there. Get real it was the politibureau making him out a man of the proletariat when he's really a millionaire.
		
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A multimillionaire from a privileged background.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thanks for the honesty, 
Iâ€™d rather have a Government that wants a fully resourced, fully manned and equipped to meet our Defence needs.
View attachment 28456

Click to expand...

Torys have a history of cutting the armed forces but I haven't noticed Labour in the past or currently saying they will reverse the Tory cuts. I suspect they would have done exactly the same. Everyone fell into the peace dividend nonsense back by an inept main building bunch of self serving tossers.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How could anyone?
		
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Quite easily really. If I was being flippant I could say the same about a Party fronted by the most hate-filled, duplicitous lying Cabinet in history. But I understand that a Party is about all of its elected representatives. Not just the (badly) chosen few.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And a cameraman just happened to be there. Get real it was the politibureau making him out a man of the proletariat when he's really a millionaire.
		
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how do you know it was a camraman and not some Daily Mail reader who happened to be wondering past on a Train


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Quite easily really. If I was being flippant I could say the same about a Party fronted by the most hate-filled, duplicitous lying Cabinet in history. But I understand that a Party is about all of its elected representatives. Not just the (badly) chosen few.
		
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Wow! "Hate-filled," and "duplicitous lying cabinet..." Granted they're not my cup of tea but that is very strong language. Maybe politicians are reaping what they've sown with many of them from all sides of the House being shown for what they are but... "hate-filled" 

I know its not in you but I do hope that this campaign doesn't see another Jo Cox incident from the loonies out there.


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## patricks148 (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! "Hate-filled," and "duplicitous lying cabinet..." Granted they're not my cup of tea but that is very strong language. Maybe politicians are reaping what they've sown with many of them from all sides of the House being shown for what they are but... "hate-filled"

I know its not in you but I do hope that this campaign doesn't see another Jo Cox incident from the loonies out there.
		
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Really, i think he was spot on TBH, I think this lot could be worse than Thatchers shower... and thats saying something


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Torys have a history of cutting the armed forces but I haven't noticed Labour in the past or currently saying they will reverse the Tory cuts. I suspect they would have done exactly the same. Everyone fell into the peace dividend nonsense back by an inept main building bunch of self serving tossers.
		
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Labour in their last Manifesto promised an in depth Defence Review so as to discover exactly what we need and then equip, man and resource correctly. 
In opposition you can say and promise what you like, as all opposition parties do, but to admit the tories have a history of defence cuts and then blame Labour for not reversing them is laughable.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! "Hate-filled," and "duplicitous lying cabinet..." Granted they're not my cup of tea but that is very strong language. Maybe politicians are reaping what they've sown with many of them from all sides of the House being shown for what they are but... "hate-filled"

I know its not in you but I do hope that this campaign doesn't see another Jo Cox incident from the loonies out there.
		
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Excellent point, well missed. The comment was aimed at the fact that there are extremes of opinion on both sides of this particular fence. SR couldnâ€™t understand how anyone couldnâ€™t share his opinion. I was pointing out that the other side probably canâ€™t understand how he maintains his.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

The Labour Party.  The once noble institutition that was set up in 1900 to champion the rights of the poor working class, It is now stands for a random collection of minority interest groups â€¦.disconnected from the people it was set up to represent yet people somehow still vote for them? How??


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Excellent point, well missed. The comment was aimed at the fact that there are extremes of opinion on both sides of this particular fence. SR couldnâ€™t understand how anyone couldnâ€™t share his opinion. I was pointing out that the other side probably canâ€™t understand how he maintains his.
		
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Sorry, I missed the important bit, i.e. "if I was being flippant..."

I'm currently suffering from "electile dysfunction." I don't seem to be able to get really bothered by this election.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Labour in their last Manifesto promised an in depth Defence Review* so as to discover exactly what we need and then equip, man and resource correctly.
In opposition you can say and promise what you like, as all opposition parties do, but to admit the tories have a history of defence cuts and then blame Labour for not reversing them is laughable.
		
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They also agreed to respect the referendum. Oops... Awkward!


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour in their last Manifesto promised an in depth Defence Review so as to discover exactly what we need and then equip, man and resource correctly. 
In opposition you can say and promise what you like, as all opposition parties do, but to admit the tories have a history of defence cuts and then blame Labour for not reversing them is laughable.
		
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Laugh as much as you like, it's also fact.


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The Labour Party.  The once noble institutition that was set up in 1900 to champion the rights of the poor working class, It is now stands for a random collection of minority interest groups â€¦.disconnected from the people it was set up to represent yet people somehow still vote for them? How??
		
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If we assume the U.K. is basically a two party state, I imagine itâ€™s thought that there is no other option for the working classes or immigrants.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Laugh as much as you like, it's also fact.
		
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So youâ€™re happy for the tories to keep cutting so long as we blame Labour if and when they get in for not reversing them? Iâ€™m genuinely puzzled.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If we assume the U.K. is basically a two party state, I imagine itâ€™s thought that there is no other option for the working classes or immigrants.
		
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Not all immigrants are poor or working class.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry, I missed the important bit, i.e. "if I was being flippant..."

I'm currently suffering from "electile dysfunction." I don't seem to be able to get really bothered by this election.
		
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im much more frustrated by it. It appears pointless, weak and overly expensive. I can only mourn the fact that weâ€™ve endured years of austerity, food banks, poverty, unnecessary deaths and almost criminal underfunding of crucial services, only to spunk every penny saved into Grayling-esque planning and unnecessary elections etc. Only to make us all worse off and make absolutely no significant difference to the general population. Sad.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			They also agreed to respect the referendum. Oops... Awkward!
		
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Howâ€™s Brexit Day going? Oops.......Awkward.


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not all immigrants are poor or working class.
		
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I didnâ€™t say they were


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I didnâ€™t say they were
		
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I Know, but there is the Lib Dems who initially were the middle ground, so I struggling to get your point, apologies.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So youâ€™re happy for the tories to keep cutting so long as we blame Labour if and when they get in for not reversing them? Iâ€™m genuinely puzzled.
		
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Where did you get that from, twist things to suit your agenda as much as you like, I'm just pointing out a fact that the Torys have history of reducing the armed forces and that Labour have never reversed the cuts. I'm not convinced the cuts were appropriate yet I presume you feel it was ok for Labour not to reverse them which suggest you think the cuts were appropriate.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Excellent point, well missed. The comment was aimed at the fact that there are extremes of opinion on both sides of this particular fence. SR couldnâ€™t understand how anyone couldnâ€™t share his opinion. I was pointing out that the other side probably canâ€™t understand how he maintains his.
		
Click to expand...

I think you read past the sarcasm there, although if many of these posts aren't sarcastic then it's worrying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Where did you get that from, twist things to suit your agenda as much as you like, I'm just pointing out a fact that the Torys have history of reducing the armed forces and that Labour have never reversed the cuts. I'm not convinced the cuts were appropriate yet I presume you feel it was ok for Labour not to reverse them which suggest you think the cuts were appropriate.
		
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Iâ€™m not happy with any cuts to Armed Forces, just as Iâ€™d imagine youâ€™re not, the difference is, Iâ€™m not writing off the next Labour Party prior to them getting in(whenever that maybe) based on the facts the tories have done nothing positive for Defence over the last 10yrs.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you read past the sarcasm there, although if many of these posts aren't sarcastic then it's worrying.
		
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I certainly didnâ€™t miss the sarcasm, but the point needed making and your post provided the perfect opportunity ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If we assume the U.K. is basically a two party state, I imagine itâ€™s thought that there is no other option for the working classes or immigrants.
		
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Are immigrants not working class


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If we assume the U.K. is basically a two party state, I imagine itâ€™s thought that there is no other option for the working classes or immigrants.
		
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The Labour Party stopped being about the working class the moment Tony Blair became PM, and that was accentuated when Gordon Brown took over as he was more concerned with things outside the UK... funny thing is every â€œsocialistâ€ I know is richer than me, inevitably has a couple of houses and rent them out to immigrants!ðŸ¤”


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			how do you know it was a camraman and not some Daily Mail reader who happened to be wondering past on a Train

Click to expand...

Because I'm not that naieve


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Howâ€™s Brexit Day going? Oops.......Awkward.
		
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Didnâ€™t you hear? Corbyn blocked it. ðŸ˜œ


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The Labour Party stopped being about the working class the moment Tony Blair became PM, and that was accentuated when Gordon Brown took over as he was more concerned with things outside the UK... funny thing is every â€œsocialistâ€ I know is richer than me, inevitably has a couple of houses and rent them out to immigrants!ðŸ¤”
		
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Which party stands for the poor and working classes then ?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

Anyway letâ€™s not focus just on jezza, donâ€™t forget  John McDonnell, who had this to say in 2003: â€œItâ€™s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.â€


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

Got a problem with Dom Cummins?

Your gonna love Seamus Milne....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6738195/CORBYN.html

Yes itâ€™s the DM but feel free to point out any inaccuracies.ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Howâ€™s Brexit Day going? Oops.......Awkward.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Got a problem with Dom Cummins?

Your gonna love Seamus Milne....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6738195/CORBYN.html

Yes itâ€™s the DM but feel free to point out any inaccuracies.ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Silly man, only those nasty Torys are the boogie men/ladies.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Got a problem with Dom Cummins?

Your gonna love Seamus Milne....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6738195/CORBYN.html

Yes itâ€™s the DM but feel free to point out any inaccuracies.ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

At least Labour are honest with their election slogan....."for the many, not the Jew". ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Anyway letâ€™s not focus just on jezza, donâ€™t forget  John McDonnell, who had this to say in 2003: â€œItâ€™s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.â€
		
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Google Maria Gatland or when the Queen met Gerry Adams and Martyn McGuiness.
The DUP supported the UDA/UFF the Tory party gave them a Billion pounds to prop them up in Government.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The Labour Party stopped being about the working class the moment Tony Blair became PM, and that was accentuated when Gordon Brown took over as he was more concerned with things outside the UK... funny thing is every â€œsocialistâ€ I know is richer than me, inevitably has a couple of houses and rent them out to immigrants!ðŸ¤”
		
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Do you resent success and having empathy?
I would rather have the wealthy give a monkeys and paying their taxes to maintain the NHS, the education system etc .. I donâ€™t have much time for the me first right wing policies


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2019)

So basically this thread is going to be 

Tory are evil - no labour are evil 

No Tories or evil 

Repeat till end 

nothing about what either parties policies will be for the future , what they will look to do post Brexit because this should be about more than Brexit 

Either way it shows what a complete state we are in when we have to pick between Johnson and Corbyn as PM - and we laughed at the US when they had to pick between Clinton and Trump


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Got a problem with Dom Cummins?

Your gonna love Seamus Milne....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6738195/CORBYN.html

Yes itâ€™s the DM but feel free to point out any inaccuracies.ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Why has it taken 9 months for you to highlight this?
You really are running in fear.
Donâ€™t worry Iâ€™m sure the Brexit Party will have a strong candidate in your area.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Why has it taken 9 months for you to highlight this?*
You really are running in fear.
Donâ€™t worry Iâ€™m sure the Brexit Party will have a strong candidate in your area.
		
Click to expand...

Err... maybe because an election has been called? 

Your 2nd â€œpointâ€ is a good one, itâ€™s hard to say what impact the Brexit party will have on both Lab and Con, Iâ€™m in a Conservative area but am a fully paid up member of the Brexit party.... it is a bit of a conundrum!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Err... maybe because an election has been called?

Your 2nd â€œpointâ€ is a good one, itâ€™s hard to say what impact the Brexit party will have on both Lab and Con, Iâ€™m in a Conservative area but am a fully paid up member of the Brexit party.... it is a bit of a conundrum!
		
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Sadly all youâ€™re doing is proving Corbyn is correct when he said this will be the dirtiest GE ever.
Iâ€™ve not seen one person on this forum support Corbyn or McDonnell, many like myself wish they were gone, they arenâ€™t so I will read the Manifest when it comes out, speak to local MP (who went against Corbyn and voted for borisâ€™s deal) and then decide if I vote for him or spoil my paper.


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			im much more frustrated by it. It appears pointless, weak and overly expensive. I can only mourn the fact that weâ€™ve endured years of austerity, food banks, poverty, unnecessary deaths and almost criminal underfunding of crucial services, only to spunk every penny saved into Grayling-esque planning and unnecessary elections etc. Only to make us all worse off and make absolutely no significant difference to the general population. Sad.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not happy with any cuts to Armed Forces, just as Iâ€™d imagine youâ€™re not, the difference is, Iâ€™m not writing off the next Labour Party prior to them getting in(whenever that maybe) based on the facts the tories have done nothing positive for Defence over the last 10yrs.
		
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I'm not defending the level of austerity nor the length of time it went on but can we at least consider the state the country was in when the Tories took over. A worse level of debt than Greece, and only kept afloat by the ability to service a large portion of that debt. But the country was still sinking with interest on top of interest. And then there was its triple AAA credit rating which it lost, making interest rates even higher.

Cuts were needed but many of those cuts were brutal. And some of those cuts were an absolute disgrace, e.g. shutting down the workshops that many disabled went to everyday.

However, the sad reality was their was little choice in the early Tory years but to make cuts.

The other side of the coin, the reducing of taxes for the rich in the hope that it would stimulate reinvestment by rich businessmen was proven to not work. Trickle down economics has never been an efficient or fair way to run it. Was it favouritism or flawed economic policy? Maybe a bit of both?

Again, I'm not condoning the level but they were needed in some form.


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why has it taken 9 months for you to highlight this?
You really are running in fear.
Donâ€™t worry Iâ€™m sure the Brexit Party will have a strong candidate in your area.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't need the DM to know about Seamus Milne. I thought his attributes were well known.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sadly all youâ€™re doing is proving Corbyn is correct when he said this will be the dirtiest GE ever.
Iâ€™ve not seen one person on this forum support Corbyn or McDonnell, many like myself wish they were gone, they arenâ€™t so I will read the Manifest when it comes out, speak to local MP (who went against Corbyn and voted for borisâ€™s deal) and then decide *if I vote for him* or spoil my paper.
		
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You will vote for him. Guaranteed. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sadly all youâ€™re doing is proving Corbyn is correct when he said this will be the dirtiest GE ever.
Iâ€™ve not seen one person on this forum support Corbyn or McDonnell, many like myself wish they were gone, they arenâ€™t so I will read the Manifest when it comes out, speak to local MP (who went against Corbyn and voted for borisâ€™s deal) and then decide if I vote for him or spoil my paper.
		
Click to expand...

And Corbyn, today, named rich individuals he wants to go after. Sorry but that's low. By all means set a policy, and let the electorate decide but to name individuals he wants to go after.... Clean election? He needs to look at himself. 

As for the targeting of rich individuals; maybe he'd like to stand at the stump and explain why/how Momentum gave him a Â£70,000 'loan' with no repayment terms, including a time period to repay. He's declared it, as per the rules of Parliament... but a 'loan?' Yeh right...


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 31, 2019)

Oh what joy on radio 4 this evening. A one off Little Brexit special
Who'd have thought Vicky Pollard would have been so informative


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The other side of the coin, the reducing of taxes for the rich in the hope that it would stimulate reinvestment by rich businessmen was proven to not work. Trickle down economics has never been an efficient or fair way to run it. Was it favouritism or flawed economic policy? Maybe a bit of both?

Again, I'm not condoning the level but they were needed in some form.
		
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Iâ€™m not disputing the fact that cuts were needed. (I will argue with anyone the real reason behind the fragile state of the economy at the time however.)

But, if after all those years of savage cuts, and repeated uttering regarding the lack of a magic money tree, the issue we decide to spend all those saved pennies on is something that will only make most of us poorer, drive down public services further and make not one blind bit of difference to the lives of the vast majority of us (other than the aforementioned negatives). 

Imagine what we couldâ€™ve done with those billions? Hospitals, Schools, improved pensions, renewable energy investment, inner city regeneration. All the things that have degenerated spectacularly over the last 20 years ðŸ˜¢


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## ger147 (Oct 31, 2019)

Cherry13 said:



			I must admit I donâ€™t fully understand election polling, but if you simply extrapolate that percentage out into seats wonâ€™t this give them less seats than they currently have?  

I understand d theyâ€™ll have more seats than the other parties, but not a majority of the house. 

Would be interested to understand if Iâ€™m misinterpretating this though.
		
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In our FTTP system, that margin of votes over the rest of the parties would result in an overall majority of about 80 seats.

Another way to look at it. In the 2015 GE, UKIP got about 4 million votes but not a single seat. 41% of the votes does NOT equate to 41% of the seats for the Tories if Labour only get 24%.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't need the DM to know about Seamus Milne. I thought his attributes were well known.
		
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They are mate, itâ€™s the trawling the web looking for old news to be new news.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 31, 2019)

God we've still got six weeks to go and it's gone mental already.     Then again, I am almost begging one of the Lib Dems to come round knocking on my door canvassing for my vote.   That will be the most entertaining few minutes I've had in months  ;-)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And Corbyn, today, named rich individuals he wants to go after. Sorry but that's low. By all means set a policy, and let the electorate decide but to name individuals he wants to go after.... Clean election? He needs to look at himself.

As for the targeting of rich individuals; maybe he'd like to stand at the stump and explain why/how Momentum gave him a Â£70,000 'loan' with no repayment terms, including a time period to repay. He's declared it, as per the rules of Parliament... but a 'loan?' Yeh right...
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re preaching to the converted Bri, Iâ€™m not defending Corbyn as his name will stand in front of any decent Labour policies that are proposed.
Proper dilemma for me, Labour win = More Corbyn
Tory win = Boris  but Corbyn steps down 
Maybe a hung parliament with more chaos and another GE in the spring with different party leaders.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You will vote for him. Guaranteed. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
		
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Eh! Sheep, Youâ€™re the one supporting a one trick pony! Farage has failed at everything and has 1 policy.
No google then or answer to the terrorist supporting tories!


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## JamesR (Oct 31, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			God we've still got six weeks to go and it's gone mental already.     Then again, I am almost begging one of the Lib Dems to come round knocking on my door canvassing for my vote.   That will be the most entertaining few minutes I've had in months  ;-)
		
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Why, whatâ€™s going to happen?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re preaching to the converted Bri, Iâ€™m not defending Corbyn as his name will stand in front of any decent Labour policies that are proposed.
Proper dilemma for me, Labour win = More Corbyn
Tory win = Boris  but Corbyn steps down 
Maybe a hung parliament with more chaos and another GE in the spring with different party leaders. 

Click to expand...

I believe if Corbyn wins he will step aside pretty quick 

He doesn't want to be pm he wants to just say he was 

So step aside and have someone else


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## ger147 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I believe if Corbyn wins he will step aside pretty quick 

He doesn't want to be pm he wants to just say he was 

So step aside and have someone else
		
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I very much doubt he will immediately fall on his sword. Will be an interesting battle between the grass roots members and the PLP when he finally does go as I'm sure the PLP will want to regain control of their party when the opportunity next presents itself.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Why, whatâ€™s going to happen?
		
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There will be some back peddling.. a polite no thank you and then a post on here about how he stood up to the candidate in question and batted them off with well informed debate.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2019)

Chortle


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2019)

Currently there are 58 MPs that have said they are not standing for re election. various reasons have been given. However ave seen a post that most of them are " remainers". Does seem a lot, but am not sure how many have dropped out befor


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Lets face it, Labour have no chance unless they nuke Corbyn and all of his cabinet. Only a compete Twazock could contemplate them fit for for purpose.  There are some Labour MPs capable of forming a second rate prospective government (if you're desperate)  I suggest its better to come to ones senses and vote Tory or Brexit thus preventing people who have no idea of how to govern a country getting the oppertunity.   Great unwashed, know your limitations.


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## robinthehood (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets face it, Labour have no chance unless they nuke Corbyn and all of his cabinet. Only a compete Twazock could contemplate them fit for for purpose.  There are some Labour MPs capable of forming a second rate prospective government (if you're desperate)  I suggest its better to come to ones senses and vote Tory or Brexit thus preventing people who have no idea of how to govern a country getting the oppertunity.   Great unwashed, know your limitations.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Been on the vino?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Been on the vino?
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s an interesting stance .. generally like golf membership voting Tory is done by social climbers. 
Labour voters have pride in the working class roots and thus know their limitations.
So I think we can say that the great unwashed do know their limitations to an extent but those with social ambition want to challenge their limitations. 
It was these aspirational voters that Blair targeted â€œMondeo manâ€ who couldnâ€™t afford a merc, bmw or even a VW ( which was the working class German manâ€™s Ford). The Sun newspaper gave this policy a boost as well.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Which party stands for the poor and working classes then ?
		
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The SNP have the lowest taxation level in the UK, decent child care/free school meals up to P3 and no university fees .....so probably them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets face it, Labour have no chance unless they nuke Corbyn and all of his cabinet. Only a compete Twazock could contemplate them fit for for purpose.  There are some Labour MPs capable of forming a second rate prospective government (if you're desperate)  I suggest its better to come to ones senses and vote Tory or Brexit thus preventing people who have no idea of how to govern a country getting the oppertunity.   Great unwashed, know your limitations.
		
Click to expand...

And you got upset when people put labels on those who voted leave.ðŸ¤¡


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And you got upset when people put labels on those who voted leave.ðŸ¤¡
		
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He's fishing Paul. Don't bite.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP have the lowest taxation level in the UK, decent child care/free school meals up to P3 and no university fees .....so probably them.
		
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Be interesting if they can keep that up when they are in the EU.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

Watching the news last night it was interesting to see the 'Not for Sale' chant encouraged by Labour relating to the NHS. It doesn't matter whether it is true or not, if they can get that to be a thing throughout this election and sit in the subconscious it could be quite powerful. Their version of 'the bus'


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Be interesting if they can keep that up when they are in the EU.
		
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I like your positivity...â€¦â€¦.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Watching the news last night it was interesting to see the 'Not for Sale' chant encouraged by Labour relating to the NHS. It doesn't matter whether it is true or not, if they can get that to be a thing throughout this election and sit in the subconscious it could be quite powerful. Their version of 'the bus'
		
Click to expand...

That was heavily discussed last night on QT, in essence the audience was having none of it that Labours suggesting the NHS is for sale. One of the independent panelists said the suggestions were Bollox. Her words not mine


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Been on the vino?
		
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No, it makes me sarcastic.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I like your positivity...â€¦â€¦.

Click to expand...

Dt it Is fair to say we have differing opinions however if that is the case and Scotland gets what they want ( Independance and the EU irrespective of ignoring a vote ðŸ˜‰) if they keep that going in the EU fair play to them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			That was heavily discussed last night on QT, in essence the audience was having none of it that Labours suggesting the NHS is for sale. One of the independent panelists said the suggestions were Bollox. Her words not mine
		
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Sometimes it doesn't have to be right, I come back to the bus, it just has to stick. Tory HQ will be going all out these next few days to crush the idea as they know it would do damage.

I find the strategy side quite interesting. All of the sides are trying to get phrases out that stick in the mind. Trump, for all his downsides, worked a dream, or his team did, in his election. Make America Great, Lock Her Up, snappy lines that stuck and people bought into. Not everyone but enough. You don't have to convince everyone, just a few extra. All sides will be doing it, Labour just got their first effective one in before the others.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He's fishing Paul. Don't bite.
		
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It's a very small maggot he's got though...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It's a very small maggot he's got though... 

Click to expand...

Its all you need to catch a sprat... ðŸ¤­


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sometimes it doesn't have to be right, I come back to the bus, it just has to stick. Tory HQ will be going all out these next few days to crush the idea as they know it would do damage.

I find the strategy side quite interesting. All of the sides are trying to get phrases out that stick in the mind. Trump, for all his downsides, worked a dream, or his team did, in his election. Make America Great, Lock Her Up, snappy lines that stuck and people bought into. Not everyone but enough. You don't have to convince everyone, just a few extra. All sides will be doing it, Labour just got their first effective one in before the others.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like the new Conservative election slogan might be a bit of an own goal!! Who on earth came up with..

"Britain deserves better"

Better than what exactly? The party that has been in power for the last god knows how many years!!! really?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Looks like the new Conservative election slogan might be a bit of an own goal!! Who on earth came up with..

"Britain deserves better"

Better than what exactly? The party that has been in power for the last god knows how many years!!! really?
		
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Better than being in the EU.  You know 'things can only get better' Worked before ðŸ˜‰


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## stefanovic (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hate caravans personally, just accept they are there and thousands upon thousands get pleasure out of them.
		
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Thousands upon thousands get pleasure out of shooting birds and other wild life.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Better than being on the EU.  You know 'things can only get better' Worked before ðŸ˜‰
		
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Worked for D:Ream, and then allowed Brian Cox to chase his TV dream I suppose..

Still, if you have to explain the message then it's probably not quite catchy enough for Boris and Farage's target audience eh?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Thousands upon thousands get pleasure out of shooting birds and other wild life.
		
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Hopefully they will of parked the Caravan and donâ€™t shoot whilst driving!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sometimes it doesn't have to be right, I come back to the bus, it just has to stick. Tory HQ will be going all out these next few days to crush the idea as they know it would do damage.

I find the strategy side quite interesting. All of the sides are trying to get phrases out that stick in the mind. Trump, for all his downsides, worked a dream, or his team did, in his election. *Make America Great, Lock Her Up, snappy lines that stuck and people bought into. Not everyone but enough. You don't have to convince everyone, just a few extra. All sides will be doing it, Labour just got their first effective one in before the others*.
		
Click to expand...

Kind of a bit depressing though as it is essentially an election around who can get the most traction out of a catchphrase or meme. Treat the public as stupid and not able to cope with anything more and we kind of end up with the parliament we deserve if we don't desire more.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hopefully they will of parked the Caravan and donâ€™t shoot whilst driving! 

Click to expand...

The pleasure is in the eating


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Looks like the new Conservative election slogan might be a bit of an own goal!! Who on earth came up with..

"Britain deserves better"

Better than what exactly? The party that has been in power for the last god knows how many years!!! really?
		
Click to expand...

I saw that and my immediate response was 'massive own goal'
Hope they do Poster and Bus advertising.
After his covert visit to Addenbrookes yesterday [did the have to smuggle him in with a blanket over his head]has Johnson announced what Perthshire village hut he is visiting in Scotland.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of a bit depressing though as it is essentially an election around who can get the most traction out of a catchphrase or meme. Treat the public as stupid and not able to cope with anything more and we kind of end up with the parliament we deserve if we don't desire more.
		
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But in all fairness, that has been the way for years now. The most memorable for me (even as a left leaning voter) as Maggies posters of a long snaking line of people standing with the strap line â€œlabour isnâ€™t workingâ€
It worked for Maggie unfortunately.

TBH I think the verbal intervention of Trump might actually backfire for Joris Bohnson.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But in all fairness, that has been the way for years now. The most memorable for me (even as a left leaning voter) as Maggies posters of a long snaking line of people standing with the strap line â€œlabour isnâ€™t workingâ€
It worked for Maggie unfortunately.

TBH I think the verbal intervention of Trump might actually backfire for Joris Bohnson.
		
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You are kidding, all the Labour activists sprayed out the n't in isn't on the posters in my area, it was a right old laugh.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

This kind of makes sense to me as they are effectively the same party nowadays.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50255260


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This kind of makes sense to me as they are effectively the same party nowadays.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50255260

Click to expand...

Only on one issue, but hasnâ€™t boris already said no chance? Probably means it will happen then.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sometimes it doesn't have to be right, I come back to the bus, it just has to stick. Tory HQ will be going all out these next few days to crush the idea as they know it would do damage.

I find the strategy side quite interesting. All of the sides are trying to get phrases out that stick in the mind. Trump, for all his downsides, worked a dream, or his team did, in his election. Make America Great, Lock Her Up, snappy lines that stuck and people bought into. Not everyone but enough. You don't have to convince everyone, just a few extra. All sides will be doing it, Labour just got their first effective one in before the others.
		
Click to expand...

If memory serves me right, I think when Blair got in he hired American strategists to help and advise on the Labour campaign


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## drdel (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of a bit depressing though as it is essentially an election around who can get the most traction out of a catchphrase or meme. Treat the public as stupid and not able to cope with anything more and we kind of end up with the parliament we deserve if we don't desire more.
		
Click to expand...

The old Greek philosophers had some sense. Aristotle said (paraphrased a bit)"... you can't give power to the soldiers, they won't know what to do with it...!"

Not wishing to be impolite to our fellow UK citizens but 'intelligence/common sense' isn't spread evenly; it is quite skewed as there's more at the bottom; luckily a high proportion can't be bothered to vote. I'm afraid it means the slogans etc are targeted at the lowest common denominator.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			If memory serves me right, I think when Blair got in he hired American strategists to help and advise on the Labour campaign
		
Click to expand...

They all do it nowadays and there is a lot of crossover.  Watch 'The Great Hack' on Netflix and you'll see the crossover between Brexit campaign and Trump campaign. No doubt all parties are now looking at the most effective way to get the votes they need, which increasingly involves harvesting individuals data and then targeting those people/demographics with specific messages.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They all do it nowadays and there is a lot of crossover.  Watch 'The Great Hack' on Netflix and you'll see the crossover between Brexit campaign and Trump campaign. No doubt all parties are now looking at the most effective way to get the votes they need, which increasingly involves harvesting individuals data and then targeting those people/demographics with specific messages.
		
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Very much this. Emphasising the 'echo chamber'. All quite disturbing and sinister. Sadly effective for a lot of people as well.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very much this. Emphasising the 'echo chamber'. *All quite disturbing and sinister*. Sadly effective for a lot of people as well.
		
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Yup, said it before and I'll say it again (which is the official motto of this forum) but this is the biggest threat to our democracy in ages and it's happening before our very eyes.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They all do it nowadays and there is a lot of crossover.  Watch 'The Great Hack' on Netflix and you'll see the crossover between Brexit campaign and Trump campaign. No doubt all parties are now looking at the most effective way to get the votes they need, which increasingly involves harvesting individuals data and then targeting those people/demographics with specific messages.
		
Click to expand...

Jehovah Witnesses been at it for years.   I just tell them I never saw the accident.


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## Mudball (Nov 1, 2019)




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## Papas1982 (Nov 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			The old Greek philosophers had some sense. Aristotle said (paraphrased a bit)"... you can't give power to the soldiers, they won't know what to do with it...!"

Not wishing to be impolite to our fellow UK citizens *but* 'intelligence/common sense' isn't spread evenly; *it is quite skewed as there's more at the bottom; luckily a high proportion can't be bothered to vote*. I'm afraid it means the slogans etc are targeted at the lowest common denominator.
		
Click to expand...

*But, *always followed by what your really think, but pretend not to...

Although I thought our bright youngsters were the ones that couldnt be bothered....


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

Brilliant news Farage saying the Brexit party will contest every seat in Scotland.
Nicola could not write a better script. Can we please get Nigel to do a public tour of the Scots regions.

Mind you I have been told that the Brexit party only have enough money and candidates to contest 40-60 seats in the UK.
Someone must be telling porkies. [Again]


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

So we have the choice of  2 liars , on the right wing side.
An unknown liability on the left wing. And jokers in the middle, according to the right wingers..


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## Dando (Nov 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are kidding, all the Labour activists sprayed out the n't in isn't on the posters in my area, it was a right old laugh.
		
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Hilarious


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So we have the choice of  2 liars , on the right wing side.
An unknown liability on the left wing. And jokers in the middle, according to the right wingers..
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like your about to write a song


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			Hilarious
		
Click to expand...

Well it was Swindon


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Sounds like your about to write a song 

Click to expand...

Yeah started going a bit Gerry Rafferty


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## larmen (Nov 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brilliant news Farage saying the Brexit party will contest every seat in Scotland.
Nicola could not write a better script. Can we please get Nigel to do a public tour of the Scots regions.

Mind you I have been told that the Brexit party only have enough money and candidates to contest 40-60 seats in the UK.
Someone must be telling porkies. [Again]
		
Click to expand...

Going to buy McDonalds shares as milkshake sales might be going through the roof ;-)

Honestly, I think Farage should think about what he wants. Does he want to be in teh media or does he want to get Brexit done? His best bet for Brexit is a Tory majority, contesting seats might split votes and risk that. So keep quiet an don't be in the media?
I am all for him splitting the vote, tbh.

Does anyone have a guess how the DUP will be doing? Are they save seats? Are they better off now that 3 weeks ago, or worse?


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## chrisd (Nov 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			Hilarious
		
Click to expand...

I nearly wet myself


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

larmen said:



			Going to buy McDonalds shares as milkshake sales might be going through the roof ;-)

Honestly, I think Farage should think about what he wants. Does he want to be in teh media or does he want to get Brexit done? His best bet for Brexit is a Tory majority, contesting seats might split votes and risk that. So keep quiet an don't be in the media?
I am all for him splitting the vote, tbh.

Does anyone have a guess how the DUP will be doing? Are they save seats? Are they better off now that 3 weeks ago, or worse?[/QUO
		
Click to expand...

I think the DUP seats would be ultra safe unless there are some great Protestant independents around. Unfortunately that's the way it's is.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

larmen said:



			Going to buy McDonalds shares as milkshake sales might be going through the roof ;-)

*Honestly, I think Farage should think about what he wants*. Does he want to be in teh media or does he want to get Brexit done? His best bet for Brexit is a Tory majority, contesting seats might split votes and risk that. So keep quiet an don't be in the media?
I am all for him splitting the vote, tbh.

Does anyone have a guess how the DUP will be doing? Are they save seats? Are they better off now that 3 weeks ago, or worse?
		
Click to expand...

I think he mostly wants the maximum publicity for Nigel Farage.  And anything else is a bonus.  He was a big player in UK politics in terms of media coverage if not quite number of MPs. He then stepped down, UKIP went all BNP so he's getting the old band together under a different brand name.  Anything to keep him in the news.  And fair play to him, he knows his audience and a lot of media outlets lap it up.


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## robinthehood (Nov 1, 2019)

Bojo seem quite clear that therell be no pact with the brexit prat


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)




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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 28464

Click to expand...

Nope that went right over


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope that went right over
		
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Don't worry about it, I'm sure there be a ballot box near for you.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 28464

Click to expand...

Might be struggling in Israel, not really his cup of tea if you know what I mean.


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## Imurg (Nov 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I nearly wet myself
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it wasn't anything to do with Doon's post was it.....


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't worry about it, I'm sure there be a ballot box closure for you.
		
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Why would they close the ballot box?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Why would they close the ballot box?
		
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Its enough to have one nit picking pedant on here.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Why would they close the ballot box?
		
Click to expand...

Glad you spotted that


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## chrisd (Nov 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Yeah, but it wasn't anything to do with Doon's post was it.....

Click to expand...

Well no, but I couldn't blame the cat as we haven't got one


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't worry about it, I'm sure there be a ballot box near for you. 

Click to expand...

Relevance still lost on me ..
Youâ€™ll have explain your logic and back it up with some data.


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## Mudball (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So we have the choice of  *2 liars , on the right wing side.*
An unknown liability on the left wing. And jokers in the middle, according to the right wingers..
		
Click to expand...

So do two wrongs(liars) make it Right ??


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Relevance still lost on me ..
Youâ€™ll have explain your logic and back it up with some data.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, this is all I've got at the moment


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Sorry, this is all I've got at the moment
View attachment 28466

Click to expand...

Ah pictures of a man with no power talking to people who come and go out of American fashion. 
Thank you. 
But letâ€™s reiterate he has now power to cause damage. Unfortunately Boris has that capability and has. 
There is no defence for Boris and Corbyn hasnâ€™t made him self electable. 
But also Corbyn cannot be voted in by the countryâ€™s you have identified.. bit silly that. 
Also do you support Israel completely in their behaviour?


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah pictures of a man with no power talking to people who come and go out of American fashion.
Thank you.
But letâ€™s reiterate he has now power to cause damage. Unfortunately Boris has that capability and has.
There is no defence for Boris and Corbyn hasnâ€™t made him self electable.
But also Corbyn cannot be voted in by the countryâ€™s you have identified.. bit silly that.
Also do you support Israel completely in their behaviour?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what American fashion or Israel has to with with this. It's about a man who has courted those who have been identified by the UN as players in terrorist organizations.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure what American fashion or Israel has to with with this. It's about a man who has courted those who have been identified by the UN as players in terrorist organizations.
		
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You are playing ignorant ... you know exactly what is being said.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You are playing ignorant ... you know exactly what is being said.
		
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Well debated by insult perfect.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Well debated by insult perfect.
		
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Really? Or your tactic has been dismissed and you have no other argument.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Really? Or your tactic has been dismissed and you have no other argument.
		
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What tactic, just pointing out that the man has history that many don't have any sympathy with but you are obviously within your rights to give him full support for his actions.


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure what American fashion or Israel has to with with this. It's about a man who has courted those who have been identified by the UN as players in terrorist organizations.
		
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And denied much of those actions to the extent our own security services don't trust the guy!!!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			What tactic, just pointing out that the man has history that many don't have any sympathy with but you are obviously within your rights to give him full support for his actions.
		
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To be fair you presented a one sided piece of evidence and neglected to mention the complex interactions of other parties and decided that a man who has â€œno power â€œ (I will emphasise that point.. was having a chat with them) was unelectable because of these interactions. 
You also miss the point that the IRA received major funding from America, you also neglected to answer the question about Israel behaviour? The point being that no one is inherently bad and there isnâ€™t a good , just a side of an argument that needs to have itâ€™s own fresh air.
This is distinctly different to misrepresenting yourself and not being honest to your peers, the Queen and the electorate.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 2, 2019)

NOT FOR SALE!


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## Griffsters (Nov 2, 2019)

I'm going to try and avoid the circus for the next few weeks. For the most part it will be lies, spin or character assassination with very little of substance. It is what our Politics has descended to.

For what its worth I'll be voting Liberal Democrat or Green, it doesn't really matter as thankfully the Tories have no chance here. I'd like Labour to be in a position to challenge but it is not going to happen whilst Corbyn and Abbott are anywhere near leadership.


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## PieMan (Nov 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't rember Jezza mocking BJ about anything but his policy, and lieing TBH, never falling asleep on a train
		
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And Boris has never mocked Jezza about anything other than his policies! All back bench MPs make ridiculous comments about the leaders when they're making statements - that's what it's like in the HoC at the moment.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

Today my PP was complaining. Apparently yesterday he put a Â£10 bid on Ebay for a cowboy outfit. Today he found he was the only bidder. Snag is he's bought the Labour Party !
He wants his money back!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Farage announcing heâ€™s not standing in the GE! Has there ever been a bigger failure as a wannabe MP in the history of this Country, absolute clown.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Farage announcing heâ€™s not standing in the GE! Has there ever been a bigger failure as a wannabe MP in the history of this Country, absolute clown.
		
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I think he likes the freedom and cash his 'freelance'  status offers rather too much to be constrained by being and MP.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think he likes the freedom and cash his 'freelance' offers rather too much to be constrained by being and MP.
		
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And the money heâ€™s raking in from being a MEP, even Labourâ€™s plan benefits him.
Or he heard Flipper was going to stand against him again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2019)

Churchs trolling the Tories now 
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ain's+not+working+tory+poster+2019&ajaxhist=0


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## patricks148 (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Farage announcing heâ€™s not standing in the GE! Has there ever been a bigger failure as a wannabe MP in the history of this Country, absolute clown.
		
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isn't he just obeying the will of the people


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Farage announcing heâ€™s not standing in the GE! Has there ever been a bigger failure as a wannabe MP in the history of this Country, absolute clown.
		
Click to expand...

Wonder if that's down to the criticism levelled at him by his main backer, Aaron Banks?


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			To be fair you presented a one sided piece of evidence and neglected to mention the complex interactions of other parties and decided that a man who has â€œno power â€œ (I will emphasise that point.. was having a chat with them) was unelectable because of these interactions.
You also miss the point that the IRA received major funding from America, you also neglected to answer the question about Israel behaviour? The point being that no one is inherently bad and there isnâ€™t a good , just a side of an argument that needs to have itâ€™s own fresh air.
This is distinctly different to misrepresenting yourself and not being honest to your peers, the Queen and the electorate.
		
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Just a point on your "the IRA received major funding from America..." That was IRA sympathisers in America, not the American govt.


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## 4LEX (Nov 3, 2019)

The Tories have been a shambles since the tail end of Cameron's tenre. Unfortunately Labour have applied no pressure because they're headed by a complete clown.

I fear a shambles, low turn out, no majority, Corbyn to be forced out (a good thing), no Brexit bill passed and Johnson to resign. New leadership race and another election


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2019)

4LEX said:



			The Tories have been a shambles since the tail end of Cameron's tenre. Unfortunately Labour have applied no pressure because they're headed by a complete clown.

I fear a shambles, low turn out, no majority, Corbyn to be forced out (a good thing), no Brexit bill passed and Johnson to resign. New leadership race and another election 

Click to expand...

FGS don't tell Brenda in Bristol.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 3, 2019)

Heard this morning that the total number of votes that Farage has got over his many attempts at being a MP is less than Abbot's majority at the last GE. Probably needs fact checking but huge if true.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard this morning that the total number of votes that Farage has got over his many attempts at being a MP is less than Abbot's majority at the last GE. Probably needs fact checking but huge if true. ;-)
		
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Speaks volumes about Abbots constituents I think.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Speaks volumes about Abbots constituents I think.
		
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You think wrong, your answer says more about you.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 3, 2019)

Rumoured, in these parts, Boris won't be contesting his current seat (Uxbridge) come December... Probably got wind his constituents have had enough of his lying ways...


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Rumoured, in these parts, Boris won't be contesting his current seat (Uxbridge) come December... Probably got wind his constituents have had enough of his lying ways...
		
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He managed to turn a 10,000 majority in 2015 into a 5,000 majority in 2017.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You think wrong, your answer says more about you.
		
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No idea what your hinting at but I think the constituents of Hackney North would vote for a cow pat as long as it had a red rosette on....Probably much like yourself.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Rumoured, in these parts, Boris won't be contesting his current seat (Uxbridge) come December... Probably got wind his constituents have had enough of his lying ways...
		
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If the (any) PM has to switch to a safer seat then surely that is an indication of their unpopularity and you'd have to question their suitability for the role of PM.


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## larmen (Nov 3, 2019)

Imagine you are the Tory MP for a seat, lets say Maidenhead for years, and then someone muscles in to get the save seat, wouldn't you be a little angry that all the 'good work' you did for years is now rewarding someone else?

Is there  deadline when the candidates have to be declared? surely they must be printed onto the slips, so it must be long before that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Rumoured, in these parts, Boris won't be contesting his current seat (Uxbridge) come December... Probably got wind his constituents have had enough of his lying ways...
		
Click to expand...

Joining his cohort Farage in the spineless so and so's batalion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No idea what your hinting at but I think the constituents of Hackney North would vote for a cow pat as long as it had a red rosette on....Probably much like yourself.
		
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Thanks for reinforcing my point.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 3, 2019)

larmen said:



			Imagine you are the Tory MP for a seat, lets say Maidenhead for years, and then someone muscles in to get the save seat, wouldn't you be a little angry that all the 'good work' you did for years is now rewarding someone else?

Is there  deadline when the candidates have to be declared? surely they must be printed onto the slips, so it must be long before that.
		
Click to expand...

I think I saw November 14th written somewhere.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 3, 2019)

Wouldnâ€™t be surprised if BJ was parachuted into the Aylesbury constituency, now Liddington has said he is not standing.

Safe Tory seat, he has a house not far away, near Haddenham and of course, Chequers is in the constituency.

There is only one problem, donâ€™t want him


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## Mudball (Nov 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Church group trolling the Tories with a ' Britain's not Eating ' copy of their old poster.
Big queues heading for the food banks.
		
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I thought this was the Turkey wanting to join the EU poster..


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2019)

Can you just imagine how many heads would be exploding if, under the same Russian circumstances, Cummings was a Corbyn advisor.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you just imagine how many heads would be exploding if, under the same Russian circumstances, Cummings was a Corbyn advisor.

Click to expand...

Corbyn doesn't need Cummings, he has his own attack dog.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a point on your "the IRA received major funding from America..." That was IRA sympathisers in America, not the American govt.
		
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Never condoned or prevented - back door funding. Itâ€™s strange that America has some way funded a shed load of organisations at some point from 1940 onwards .. 
regards Hamas etc .. we would not have them if Israel were to tone down their activities, but guess who funds Israel?? Not JC ...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



View attachment 28477

I thought this was the Turkey wanting to join the EU poster..
		
Click to expand...


Could not possibly beat 
'Britain is Broken' after 9 years of Tory rule.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Could not possibly beat
'Britain is Broken' after 9 years of Tory rule.
		
Click to expand...

And divided


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Never condoned or prevented - back door funding. Itâ€™s strange that America has some way funded a shed load of organisations at some point from 1940 onwards ..
regards Hamas etc .. we would not have them if Israel were to tone down their activities, but guess who funds Israel?? Not JC ...
		
Click to expand...

I've been in pubs in the UK that have sent the bucket round. 

As for Hamas, they'll always be there irrespective of what Israel does. Hamas is the ruling Palestinian political party as well as having a military wing, just as the PLO is structured. And they will always be there whilst Israel is in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. And its not that long ago that Egypt also imposed sanctions on Hamas, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

And the reason the Americans are so involved; because it has no friends amongst the Arab states bordering the Med. What started out as a sympathy for a Jewish state after WW2 has evolved into a strategic need because of Russia's influence in the area.


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## Mudball (Nov 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Could not possibly beat
'Britain is Broken' after 9 years of Tory rule.
		
Click to expand...




harpo_72 said:



			And divided
		
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and still we say it is EU's fault for not being flexible, bureaucratic and that the German cars manufacturers will fall over each other to sell cars to us


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			and still we say it is EU's fault for not being flexible, bureaucratic and that the German cars manufacturers will fall over each other to sell cars to us
		
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We are a bit silly arenâ€™t we.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2019)

Can anyone confirm if this table is factually correct 



Paints an interesting picture


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I've been in pubs in the UK that have sent the bucket round.

As for Hamas, they'll always be there irrespective of what Israel does. Hamas is the ruling Palestinian political party as well as having a military wing, just as the PLO is structured. And they will always be there whilst Israel is in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. And its not that long ago that Egypt also imposed sanctions on Hamas, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

And the reason the Americans are so involved; because it has no friends amongst the Arab states bordering the Med. What started out as a sympathy for a Jewish state after WW2 has evolved into a strategic need because of Russia's influence in the area.
		
Click to expand...

So is it a bad thing to talk with these people ... no. By not talking we take sides.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So is it a bad thing to talk with these people ... no. By not talking we take sides.
		
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I don't remember saying we shouldn't talk to them... where did you get that from? If you don't talk, you can't resolve differences.

However, seeing as you raised the point. The talking should be done by the Foreign Office or intermediary talking on its behalf. It shouldn't be a back bencher, especially an opposition (radical) back bencher who has no clout whatsoever and only provides airtime and an element of 'legitimacy' to an officially recognised terrorist organisation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Never condoned or prevented - back door funding. Itâ€™s strange that America has some way funded a shed load of organisations at some point from 1940 onwards ..
regards Hamas etc .. we would not have them if Israel were to tone down their activities, but guess who funds Israel?? Not JC ...
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t forget all the British Soldiers killed by Isreali terrorists, some of those terrorists became the leaders of Isreal.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Donâ€™t forget all the British Soldiers killed by Isreali terrorists, some of those terrorists became the leaders of Isreal. 

Click to expand...

Exactly..


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't remember saying we shouldn't talk to them... where did you get that from? If you don't talk, you can't resolve differences.

However, seeing as you raised the point. The talking should be done by the Foreign Office or intermediary talking on its behalf. It shouldn't be a back bencher, especially an opposition (radical) back bencher who has no clout whatsoever and only provides airtime and an element of 'legitimacy' to an officially recognised terrorist organisation.
		
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I think you have stated it a back bench nobody.. all these people probably saw him as a stepping stone. But in the end he was a nobody.
The other point is the original post was trying to portray these actions as untrustworthy.. perhaps we should call it an active attempt at project fear. 
None of these discussions have been to the detriment of the UK, unlike the constant lies we get from our current unelected PM who also is a serial cheater and sexist plonk. (Amber Ruddâ€™s comments and his deal vs May, his comments about May vs his own success)


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can anyone confirm if this table is factually correct

View attachment 28478

Paints an interesting picture
		
Click to expand...

Finding the truth or otherwise in all of that isn't easy. 

There is one area that I know Johnson has spoken about, e.g. climate change. During a speech at the UN in Aug/Sept? I'm fairly certain he announced over a billion pounds of funding to tackle climate change. The runs counter to what is in the table, but equally he wants to drop some of the EU's environmental laws, allegedly.

Another one, close to my heart after working in the industry for over 25 years is the NHS. An area that rankles with me is procurement. Tony Blair privatised it, rebranding it NHS Procurement. Its majority owned by DHL. It chases cheaper pricing - good - but charges the NHS 14% of every deal to do so. It also charges the suppliers a big chunk to be on the approved supplier list. Without going into boring detail, it stinks, and it doesn't benefit the NHS Trusts. Johnson and Hancock were working on a Bill to end DHL's exclusivity. It also looked to remove the Section 75 on tendering. The NHS never wanted it, and have argued for its ending for many years. Johnson wanted to end it as part of the Bill. And that runs counter to whats in the table.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Corbyn would be against extra funding for 16-17 year old during training. 

For Jo Swinson it appears, somewhat surprisingly, accurate in terms of her voting record on disability benefits... wow, I'm gobsmacked. I wouldn't touch her with a barge pole. She's a bit nasty.

TBH, I don't know how much fact and how much fiction is in there.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think you have stated it a back bench nobody.. all these people probably saw him as a stepping stone. But in the end he was a nobody.
The other point is the original post was trying to portray these actions as untrustworthy.. perhaps we should call it an active attempt at project fear.
None of these discussions have been to the detriment of the UK, unlike the constant lies we get from our current unelected PM who also is a serial cheater and sexist plonk. (Amber Ruddâ€™s comments and his deal vs May, his comments about May vs his own success)
		
Click to expand...

Do you know none of these discussions were to the detriment of the UK? Do you know what discussions the foreign Office were having during those times? Thought not.

I don't like Johnson one little bit. But I see Corbyn as untrustworthy as Johnson. Further, do a little digging on the number of antisemitic instances in the Labour Party in the last 5 years. And have a look at the number of times the Leader's office has interfered with the investigations. Call it a version of project fear if you want but as a predominantly Labour voter there's no way I'll vote Labour whilst he, McDonnell and Momentum are anywhere near the Labour Party.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do you know none of these discussions were to the detriment of the UK? Do you know what discussions the foreign Office were having during those times? Thought not.

I don't like Johnson one little bit. But I see Corbyn as untrustworthy as Johnson. Further, do a little digging on the number of antisemitic instances in the Labour Party in the last 5 years. And have a look at the number of times the Leader's office has interfered with the investigations. Call it a version of project fear if you want but as a predominantly Labour voter there's no way I'll vote Labour whilst he, McDonnell and Momentum are anywhere near the Labour Party.
		
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Let me answer the first question.. of cause it will be provide me with evidence that it was to the detriment of the UK ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘.
Now your talking about anti Semitic behaviour, yes I agree and that is one completely unacceptable issue. He has not addressed it nor removed it from his party. 
I wonâ€™t vote for him either but I will not tolerate Tory rubbish either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)




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## spongebob59 (Nov 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1190952807756632069


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So is it a bad thing to talk with these people ... no. By not talking we take sides.
		
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It's not a bad thing to talk to "these people". But when you are ONLY talking to "these people" then you are taking sides. Unless you are talking with both sides then you aren't trying to find a solution.


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## Dando (Nov 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1190952807756632069

Click to expand...

Jo swindler strikes again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

And a rather important one missing from the Table that all Leave voters who accept the risk of Scotland leaving the Union as a the price worth paying need to consider.

If this all came to pass where do they want Trident to be based. Because the SNP will require Trident to be removed from the Clyde.  Even if it is negotiable - then you can be sure that the bill for it remaining would be hefty and would help fill any gap in Scotlandâ€™s finances.

I havenâ€™t heard this discussed of late. So unlike the NI/EU border sneaking under the radar to become a massive problem...what if?  Where will Westminster put Trident?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's not a bad thing to talk to "these people". But when you are ONLY talking to "these people" then you are taking sides. Unless you are talking with both sides then you aren't trying to find a solution.
		
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Who knows only a small story was presented to impact opinion.
Thankfully Borisâ€™ bad behaviour is clear and evident without any required â€œspinâ€


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1190952807756632069

Click to expand...

Donâ€™t think she got her at all. The question was laid out and the point was to show the swing in opinion from Labour to Lib Dem because they have committed to remain. 
Voting for labour for a remainer is not a final option because there still may be a leave option on the table. 
Donâ€™t get me wrong, labour policy is reasonable but given the time scales to conduct the referendum and then act we are looking at around another year possibly.
The Lib Dem policy leaves no leeway and itâ€™s straight forward we stay and get on with sorting all the stuff out that has been neglected. Likewise Tory policy we sign up for the Boris deal and get on with it. 
Forget the Brexit party without Farage itâ€™s a pointless proposition and another possible vehicle for the EDL. They will not get enough seats to participate, now that Farage has left them high and dry.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And a rather important one missing from the Table that all Leave voters who accept the risk of Scotland leaving the Union as a the price worth paying need to consider.

If this all came to pass where do they want Trident to be based. Because the SNP will require Trident to be removed from the Clyde.  Even if it is negotiable - then you can be sure that the bill for it remaining would be hefty and would help fill any gap in Scotlandâ€™s finances.

I havenâ€™t heard this discussed of late. So unlike the NI/EU border sneaking under the radar to become a massive problem...what if? * Where will Westminster put Trident?*

Click to expand...

I remember this being discussed last time around and I don't believe there was a definitive answer. 

People quote the docks around Plymouth but that is too close to a population centre so that is ruled out. 

The best suggestion, imo, was that it does not really matter where they are based as the key is the time they are out at sea. This means they could well be at a US submarine base, Sweden probably has the capability as well. Effectively rent space off them. Whether that is politically acceptable for UK politicians or actually practical I don't know. 

The SNP want Scotland to be a nuclear free zone so it would be interesting to hear if they could be bought off over this. 

Another option would be to make the nuclear docks an enclave for the remainder of the UK, a bit of the UK left in Scotland. Politically controversial but a possible way out of this.

Undoubtedly a problem due to the very special requirements of these submarines

Incidentally, if Scotland decides to leave the union it is because the Scottish people want it to happen, not because Brexiteers want to trade Scotland off. Last time I checked the Conservatives and Lib Dems have specifically said no to a further referendum, only Labour are open to another vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I remember this being discussed last time around and I don't believe there was a definitive answer.

People quote the docks around Plymouth but that is too close to a population centre so that is ruled out.

The best suggestion, imo, was that it does not really matter where they are based as the key is the time they are out at sea. This means they could well be at a US submarine base, Sweden probably has the capability as well. Effectively rent space off them. Whether that is politically acceptable for UK politicians or actually practical I don't know.

The SNP want Scotland to be a nuclear free zone so it would be interesting to hear if they could be bought off over this.

Another option would be to make the nuclear docks an enclave for the remainder of the UK, a bit of the UK left in Scotland. Politically controversial but a possible way out of this.

Undoubtedly a problem due to the very special requirements of these submarines

Incidentally, if Scotland decides to leave the union it is because the Scottish people want it to happen, not because Brexiteers want to trade Scotland off. Last time I checked the Conservatives and Lib Dems have specifically said no to a further referendum, only Labour are open to another vote.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite right with the last para thatâ€™s why I raised the question in the context of Indyref2 having happened and a vote to leave the UK being the result - most likely driven in large part by the UK exiting the EU - especially were the exit a No Deal exit. Trident is a question that would need then to be answered, and Iâ€™m not hearing the Leave/Brexit politicians telling us of their plans were such a situation to arise.

I suspect a Scottish Government would take a pragmatic view of the timescales for removal of Trident.  Timescales that would see the rUK government providing significant interim payments to Scotland as Scotland transitioned to an independent economy. And that period could easily be say 5yrs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right with the last para thatâ€™s why I raised the question in the context of Indyref2 having happened and a vote to leave the UK being the result - most likely driven in large part by the UK exiting the EU - especially were the exit a No Deal exit. Trident is a question that would need then to be answered, and Iâ€™m not hearing the Leave/Brexit politicians telling us of their plans were such a situation to arise.

I suspect a Scottish Government would take a pragmatic view of the timescales for removal of Trident.  Timescales that would see the rUK government providing significant interim payments to Scotland as Scotland transitioned to an independent economy. And that period could easily be say 5yrs.
		
Click to expand...

I would say it is not being talked about right now as it is not on the table for discussion. That is a completely separate issue, related purely to Scottish Independence. The only party talking positively about that right now is the SNP. Why would the others discuss a problem that they want no part of? Labour sound as though they would offer a deal to the SNP for a vote if they gave support in Westminster but I don't think they have looked in detail about it.

For the UK wide parties, why talk about a subject that realistically will not win you a single vote and is not relevant right now?


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## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would say it is not being talked about right now as it is not on the table for discussion. That is a completely separate issue, related purely to Scottish Independence. The only party talking positively about that right now is the SNP. Why would the others discuss a problem that they want no part of? Labour sound as though they would offer a deal to the SNP for a vote if they gave support in Westminster but I don't think they have looked in detail about it.

For the UK wide parties, why talk about a subject that realistically will not win you a single vote and is not relevant right now?
		
Click to expand...

And Johnson has said he won't sanction an independence vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And Johnson has said he won't sanction an independence vote.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why I raised the question in the context of a Yes Indyref2 vote having happened; Brexit having happened, and a large percentage of Leave voters not being bothered if the former follows the latter.  They might be bothered if as a result Trident is dumped on rUK to find a new home and big $$$s have to go to Scotland in the interim.

I was surprised that Trident wasnâ€™t in the Table - why I raised the question.

Anyway - if no one else thinks it worth the electorate thinking about then Iâ€™ll park the question until it becomes relevant.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And Johnson has said he won't sanction an independence vote.
		
Click to expand...

The week is young yet, give it a few days.
The way things are going with Farage and other stuff, Johnson is beginning to look like yesterday's man.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The week is young yet, give it a few days.
*The way things are going with Farage* and other stuff, Johnson is beginning to look like yesterday's man.
		
Click to expand...

Think you are over estimating Farage's impact.  Yes he's been on a lot of media channels as they know he'll bring clicks to their social media channels, but how much of what he says stands up under scrutiny is another matter. 

He seems to be going for what people would interpret as a hard Brexit which I think has limited appeal to a large proportion of the electorate, especially if Bojo has some form of deal which he can properly sell.  Yes Bojo's deal will never please the purists, but then again it has been proven time and time again that there is no one deal or outcome that will totally please a decent majority in government, and in those circumstances you normally end up in the middle with a compromise.  Or I suppose you could call the whole thing off as give it up as as the increasingly evidently bad job that it is and try again later.  But not sure that would please everyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think you are over estimating Farage's impact.  Yes he's been on a lot of media channels as they know he'll bring clicks to their social media channels, but how much of what he says stands up under scrutiny is another matter.

He seems to be going for what people would interpret as a hard Brexit which I think has limited appeal to a large proportion of the electorate, especially if Bojo has some form of deal which he can properly sell.  Yes Bojo's deal will never please the purists, but then again it has been proven time and time again that there is no one deal or outcome that will totally please a decent majority in government, and in those circumstances you normally end up in the middle with a compromise.  Or I suppose you could call the whole thing off as give it up as as the increasingly evidently bad job that it is and try again later.  But not sure that would please everyone. 

Click to expand...

The Leave electorate to Nigel Farage? (wishful thinking on my part)

Things have come to a pretty pass
Our romance is growing flat,
For you like this and the other
While I go for this and that,

Goodness knows what the end will be
Oh I don't know where I'm at
It looks as if we two will never be one
Something must be done:

You say either and I say either,
You say neither and I say neither
Either, either neither, neither
Let's call the whole thing off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think you are over estimating Farage's impact.  Yes he's been on a lot of media channels as they know he'll bring clicks to their social media channels, but how much of what he says stands up under scrutiny is another matter.

He seems to be going for what people would interpret as a hard Brexit which I think has limited appeal to a large proportion of the electorate, especially if Bojo has some form of deal which he can properly sell.  Yes Bojo's deal will never please the purists, but then again it has been proven time and time again that there is no one deal or outcome that will totally please a decent majority in government, and in those circumstances you normally end up in the middle with a compromise.  Or I suppose you could call the whole thing off as give it up as as the increasingly evidently bad job that it is and try again later.  But not sure that would please everyone. 

Click to expand...

Thanks, I get that with Farage but still think there are enough Loony Tooners about for the Brexit vote to cost the Tories 20/30 seats.
Similar to the Greens in Scotland standing in marginal SNP seats just might cost the two Pro Independence supporting parties seats to the combined Tory/Labour Unionists vote.
Polls/pundits say that the combined Labour/ Tory UK vote will be 20% down on 2017


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## Mudball (Nov 4, 2019)

How frightened are the Tories, Labour and the Leavers of Lib Dem wave....  You can sense it from the attack on Jo Swin & Lib Dem.  Before this election, you hardly saw them being attacked. Now we have more than 2 main parties (atleast for this election).


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## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How frightened are the Tories, Labour and the Leavers of Lib Dem wave....  You can sense it from the attack on Jo Swin & Lib Dem.  Before this election, you hardly saw them being attacked. Now we have more than 2 main parties (atleast for this election).
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they're easiest to target as Mrs Shouty Woman spends a lot of time trying to see how many feet she can get into her mouth. LibDems are trending down, and are at their lowest in the polls since June.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2019)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...ral-election-hopes/ar-AAJO8bP?ocid=spartandhp

Oh Joy, panic stricken and fighting each other.
Must be followers of Scottish History


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## patricks148 (Nov 4, 2019)

Wonder whats in this report for it to be blocked till after the election?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0UfTgQycFaRXANmPVbFHs7OditHNIU63nyhO0YnBVAmUg


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## Rooter (Nov 4, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Wonder whats in this report for it to be blocked till after the election?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0UfTgQycFaRXANmPVbFHs7OditHNIU63nyhO0YnBVAmUg

Click to expand...

If we ever get to see the full report, it wouldn't surprise me if the leave total was shall we say, not quite correct...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Jo swindler strikes again
		
Click to expand...

Is it just me but every time I see her on the box I think of Wallace and Gromit ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜ðŸ˜µ


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rooter said:



			If we ever get to see the full report, it wouldn't surprise me if the leave total was shall we say, not quite correct...
		
Click to expand...

Letâ€™s put it this way Putin is wetting himself with laughter and now we can say all leavers are Russian sympathisers...


----------



## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Is it just me but every time I see her on the box I think of Wallace and Gromit ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜ðŸ˜µ
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s the mouth ...


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## Hitdaball (Nov 4, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Wonder whats in this report for it to be blocked till after the election?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0UfTgQycFaRXANmPVbFHs7OditHNIU63nyhO0YnBVAmUg

Click to expand...

Dont matter what it sez we know wot we voted for leave means leave itâ€™s just
more corbinista terrorist supporting spin....oh wait look ... a squirrel just hopped on the window ledge.  Sorry , where was I?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s the mouth ...
		
Click to expand...

I was thinking the teeth


----------



## larmen (Nov 4, 2019)

The new speaker, will he be unopposed at the next general election, or are all/some parties going to put up a candidate?
Some definitively wanted to oppose Bercow, but what is the best guess with the new one?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

larmen said:



			The new speaker, will he be unopposed at the next general election, or are all/some parties going to put up a candidate?
Some definitively wanted to oppose Bercow, but what is the best guess with the new one?
		
Click to expand...

Seems like a nice boy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I was thinking the teeth 






Click to expand...

Spot on plus the exaggerated slow speech delivery and glaikit expression seals it


----------



## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

larmen said:



			The new speaker, will he be unopposed at the next general election, or are all/some parties going to put up a candidate?
Some definitively wanted to oppose Bercow, but what is the best guess with the new one?
		
Click to expand...


 By convention all the other parties stand down in his constituency.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

So over a few beers last night we came up with the following scenario :

1) GE results in another hung parliament.
2) Lib Dums have said they won't form a coalition with Boris or Jezza the red.
3) WJK has said they would (consider ?) a collation with Jezza in exchange for a referendum.
4) Assuming this happens and SNP gets its mandate for independence (not sure how quickly this could happen) , what happens to the coalition ? Do Labour lose the SNP votes ?? Would they still stand in Parliament??
5) Meanwhile Jezza the red negotiates a new deal which in real terms is much worse than the we have (customs union and reg alignment but out, so no say at the table but tied to EU rules and no free trade).
6) 2nd referendum pointless as remain is the better than the great new labour deal, but have to have it anyway.
7) Remain wins and we have to go begging back to Eu to stay, they have us over a barrel and we now have to stay in under much worse terms, possibly join euro zone ??
8) Ensuing riots occur in the UK with all the disgruntled leavers in outrage !!!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So over a few beers last night we came up with the following scenario :

1) GE results in another hung parliament.
2) Lib Dums have said they won't form a coalition with Boris or Jezza the red.
3) WJK has said they would (consider ?) a collation with Jezza in exchange for a referendum.
4) Assuming this happens and SNP gets its mandate for independence (not sure how quickly this could happen) , what happens to the coalition ? Do Labour lose the SNP votes ?? Would they still stand in Parliament??
5) Meanwhile Jezza the red negotiates a new deal which in real terms is much worse than the we have (customs union and reg alignment but out, so no say at the table but tied to EU rules and no free trade).
6) 2nd referendum pointless as remain is the better than the great new labour deal, but have to have it anyway.
7) Remain wins and we have to go begging back to Eu to stay, they have us over a barrel and we now have to stay in under much worse terms, possibly join euro zone ??
*8) Ensuing riots occur in the UK with all the disgruntled leavers in outrage !!*!
		
Click to expand...

Will these riots be led by Mark Francois after he has regrouped from the country exploding on the 31st October as we did not leave then?

The Tories will get a small majority but enough to ensure the current deal will pass.  As ever the main sticking point to a deal passing seems to be internal divisions from leavers over what exactly Brexit means (despite the fact that apparently it was obvious all along) as the Brexit party have a different view to the Tory party. But assuming they come to their senses and wither away to relatively few votes that matter as they normally do in GEs, the current deal will go through.  Although to be honest I would laugh like a drain if it turns out that divisions between the Farage and the Tory party over how Brexity Brexit should be scuppers the whole thing. Seeing as that is what mostly was the cause of the referendum to begin with.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So over a few beers last night we came up with the following scenario :

1) GE results in another hung parliament.
2) Lib Dums have said they won't form a coalition with Boris or Jezza the red.
3) WJK has said they would (consider ?) a collation with Jezza in exchange for a referendum.
4) Assuming this happens and SNP gets its mandate for independence (not sure how quickly this could happen) , what happens to the coalition ? Do Labour lose the SNP votes ?? Would they still stand in Parliament??
5) Meanwhile Jezza the red negotiates a new deal which in real terms is much worse than the we have (customs union and reg alignment but out, so no say at the table but tied to EU rules and no free trade).
6) 2nd referendum pointless as remain is the better than the great new labour deal, but have to have it anyway.
7) Remain wins and we have to go begging back to Eu to stay, they have us over a barrel and we now have to stay in under much worse terms, possibly join euro zone ??
8) Ensuing riots occur in the UK with all the disgruntled leavers in outrage !!!
		
Click to expand...

Amazed some of our more conscientious posters are not all over this post complaining about the tired, lazy insults.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Amazed some of our more conscientious posters are not all over this post complaining about the tired, lazy insults.

Click to expand...

Forum rules.  Red Jezza, silly woman, Lib Dums etc are all fine. But question Boris's ability to stick to the truth occasionally and that's beyond the pale...


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forum rules.  Red Jezza, silly woman, Lib Dums etc are all fine. But question Boris's ability to stick to the truth occasionally and that's beyond the pale...
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t forget wjk is only for our Scottish posters.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spot on plus the exaggerated slow speech delivery and glaikit expression seals it

Click to expand...

Kind of what posher Glaswegian Southsiders expect of those from Milngavie (mull-guy)...


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So over a few beers last night we came up with the following scenario :

1) GE results in another hung parliament.
2) Lib Dums have said they won't form a coalition with Boris or Jezza the red.
3) WJK has said they would (consider ?) a collation with Jezza in exchange for a referendum.
4) Assuming this happens and SNP gets its mandate for independence (not sure how quickly this could happen) , what happens to the coalition ? Do Labour lose the SNP votes ?? Would they still stand in Parliament??
5) Meanwhile Jezza the red negotiates a new deal which in real terms is much worse than the we have (customs union and reg alignment but out, so no say at the table but tied to EU rules and no free trade).
6) 2nd referendum pointless as remain is the better than the great new labour deal, but have to have it anyway.
7) Remain wins and we have to go begging back to Eu to stay, they have us over a barrel and we now have to stay in under much worse terms, possibly join euro zone ??
8) Ensuing riots occur in the UK with all the disgruntled leavers in outrage !!!
		
Click to expand...

1. Probably
2. Good
3. WJK ?
4. Scotland will not leave the UK
5. This will be worse, don't worry he won't get in.
6. If Labour organize new ref it will be their new deal or remain. This is wrong. It can ONLY FAIRLY be NO DEAL or REMAIN
7. This is what will happen...eventually
8. Although we have been pooed on from a great height, I have a feeling that riots will not happen BUT other things will. Like? Well we could overload the NHS with doctors appointments....not turn up for work.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			1. Probably
2. Good
3. WJK ?
4. Scotland will not leave the UK
5. This will be worse, don't worry he won't get in.
6. If Labour organize new ref it will be their new deal or remain. This is wrong. It can ONLY FAIRLY be NO DEAL or REMAIN
7. This is what will happen...eventually
8. Although we have been pooed on from a great height, I have a feeling that riots will not happen BUT other things will. Like? Well we could overload the NHS with doctors appointments....not turn up for work.....
		
Click to expand...

Wee 'Jessie/Jimmy' Krankie - yes - it's rather silly.

In the same way as it would be very silly to refer to JR-M as AJC (Algernon John Cringeworthy - _Teacher _in the Bash Street Kids) - so I won't


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forum rules.  Red Jezza, silly woman, Lib Dums etc are all fine. But question Boris's ability to stick to the truth occasionally and that's beyond the pale...
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s what Putin told them to say ...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Amazed some of our more conscientious posters are not all over this post complaining about the tired, lazy insults.

Click to expand...

Probably caught between using Comrade Boris or sticking with the more recognisable Boris the Liar...


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## Mudball (Nov 5, 2019)

What if .. Just What if.. I mean what if Lib Dem get a majority ??


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			What if .. Just What if.. I mean what if Lib Dem get a majority ??
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ll show ar5e in Woolies window.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			What if .. Just What if.. I mean what if Lib Dem get a majority ??
		
Click to expand...

PM Jo will have to step down as she is a Scottish MP and will not be able to influence or vote on any EVEL issues


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ll show ar5e in Woolies window.

Click to expand...

You will have to choose another establishment as Woolies has left the high street ... try WH Smith they are hanging in there and given the amount of staff and clutter I reckon you probably wouldn't get caught


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Donâ€™t forget wjk is only for our Scottish posters.

Click to expand...

To be brutally honest I did not know what WJK was referring to, but I get it now.  Yes, relatively harmless in a way and there are much bigger things to worry about.  But a bit telling that people have to put some vague derogatory nickname down for someone every time if they do not agree with their politics. I'm sure they have all been called worse, especially on social media if you are a female MP in the current climate, but hey ho.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)

"Stopping Brexit will deliver a Â£50bn "Remain bonus" for public services over the next five years, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson will say. 

From off BBC.....How? They never say just how. Now I'm not picking on JS coz they are all the same. None of them can tell us how they can substantiate their own claims.


----------



## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)




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## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			"Stopping Brexit will deliver a Â£50bn "Remain bonus" for public services over the next five years, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson will say.

From off BBC.....How? They never say just how. Now I'm not picking on JS coz they are all the same. None of them can tell us how they can substantiate their own claims.
		
Click to expand...

Its a straight take from the Cameron/Osbourne playbook project remain used during the referendum, apparently.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)




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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)

Hee hee there are loads out there. hee hee....


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Its a straight take from the Cameron/Osbourne playbook project remain used during the referendum, apparently.
		
Click to expand...

Ahhh, and they never told us how either. Because ........IT'S LIES !!!!!

And people say BJ is a liar. Pfffff.


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## robinthehood (Nov 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



View attachment 28492



Hee hee there are loads out there. hee hee....
		
Click to expand...

I hope they are better than those.


----------



## Colonel Bogey (Nov 5, 2019)




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## robinthehood (Nov 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



View attachment 28493




Click to expand...

Remind us what constituency farage is standing in?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Remind us what constituency farage is standing in?
		
Click to expand...

His very own - and I think he'll probably vote for himself to try and ensure that he wins - eighth time lucky.


----------



## bobmac (Nov 5, 2019)

Probably a daft question but......
Has anyone found any MPs worth voting for yet?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Nov 5, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Probably a daft question but......
Has anyone found any MPs worth voting for yet?
		
Click to expand...

The sad thing is there will be some good ones but they have been lost in the shenanigans (good word that and I am pleased I've got to use it) of the last few years. The best tend to be the local ones with no minsterial ambitions. They tend to be less tied to the party line and free to express honest opinions. Once MP's become part of the official team all free thought seems to be lost.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

This is not a parody - these are the exact words of 
@LauraPidcockMP
explaining Labour's Brexit policy: "We recognise why people voted Leave. We recognise why people voted Remain. We are not the party of either. We are the party of both." 

I'm glad that's cleared things up


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 5, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Probably a daft question but......
Has anyone found any MPs worth voting for yet?
		
Click to expand...

Well Anna Soubry is my current MP.  And as she has managed to upset both the Tories by being not Tory enough and Labour for being too Tory she could be worth a look


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 5, 2019)

Also for all those in favour of copy pasting tweets from right wing commentators or the Tory party itself, worth a read.  There's no need for the Ruskies to start falsifying the truth or spreading false information, as the Tories are happily doing it in plain sight. Which has no doubt been retweeted by the usual suspects who some on here see as reliable news sources.

Some might argue we are witnessing the dismantling of a proper democracy based on free and fair elections before our very eyes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191732381306277890


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be brutally honest I did not know what WJK was referring to, but I get it now.  Yes, relatively harmless in a way and there are much bigger things to worry about.  But a bit telling that people have to put some vague derogatory nickname down for someone every time if they do not agree with their politics. I'm sure they have all been called worse, especially on social media if you are a female MP in the current climate, but hey ho.
		
Click to expand...

Very true on your last sentence with both Cherry and Sturgeon threatened with thinly disguised terrorist death/kidnapping/disfigurement threats this week.
Who are these terrorists, why do the nearly always target women?
They are Unionist party candidates and supporters in the next UK election.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			"Stopping Brexit will deliver a Â£50bn "Remain bonus" for public services over the next five years, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson will say.

From off BBC.....How? They never say just how. Now I'm not picking on JS coz they are all the same. None of them can tell us how they can substantiate their own claims.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps if she had said a Â£48.73m bonus we might not have thought she had just picked a figure out of the air.


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## bobmac (Nov 5, 2019)

Has Diane Abbott been hidden away from the press again?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Has Diane Abbott been hidden away from the press again?
		
Click to expand...

And in the same vein I hear talk that - following his 'mis-speak' on LBC re Grenfell residents - JR-M is going to be banished to his Somerset constituency for the duration of the election


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s what Putin told them to say ...
		
Click to expand...

You're not stupid so why keep acting like you are?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You're not stupid so why keep acting like you are?
		
Click to expand...

Wassup comrade? Embrace the revolution be swayed by the propaganda let the lies wash over you and become truth.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Wassup comrade? Embrace the revolution be swayed by the propaganda let the lies wash over you and become truth.
		
Click to expand...

On second thoughts ðŸ¤”


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			On second thoughts ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Didnâ€™t think you had any ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Didnâ€™t think you had any ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Dont need them old fruit ðŸ¤­


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Nov 6, 2019)

Makes me laugh when these parties like the Lib Dems, Greens etc start their election speeches with "If we get into power". Loving the optimism but face reality people


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Makes me laugh when these parties like the Lib Dems, Greens etc start their election speeches with "If we get into power". Loving the optimism but face reality people
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s statements like this that make me worried, because it sounds like people are going to vote apathetically and not accept they can change Brexit - push it through or stop it. 
Boris has bravely stated he will initiate his deal - I like that he has drawn a line in the sand.
Labour - good proposal but time consuming 
Lib Demâ€™s/ greens - confirmed position.

Manifesto irrelevant until Brexit is completed.


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## chrisd (Nov 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Labour - good proposal but time consuming
		
Click to expand...

So, they are going to negotiate a better deal and then have a referendum as to accept it or stay in?

Doesn't it occur to them that the EU would prefer us to stay in as we prop the thing up with our payments, so, they aren't going to offer any deal that means we leave, given that, under this plan we do not leave anyway whichever way it was to go?


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s statements like this that make me worried, because it sounds like people are going to vote apathetically and not accept they can change Brexit - push it through or stop it.
Boris has bravely stated he will initiate his deal - I like that he has drawn a line in the sand.
Labour - good proposal but time consuming
Lib Demâ€™s/ greens - confirmed position.

Manifesto irrelevant until Brexit is completed.
		
Click to expand...

Have a big like.

Brexit has certainly focused the parties and also given the electorate a huge chance to influence the outcome once and for all - hopefully.

Totally agree with your last sentence. Until a govt knows where Brexit is going, it won't know how much money it has to play with.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Nov 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s statements like this that make me worried, because it sounds like people are going to vote apathetically and not accept they can change Brexit - push it through or stop it.
Boris has bravely stated he will initiate his deal - I like that he has drawn a line in the sand.
Labour - good proposal but time consuming
Lib Demâ€™s/ greens - confirmed position.

Manifesto irrelevant until Brexit is completed.
		
Click to expand...

I agree about the apathetic voting but I just laugh at these "smaller" parties insisting they can come to power. I do think some of them can very much influence proceedings and feel the Lib Dems and the greens will both make some inroads into the Tory and Labour seats around the country this time around but running the country.....?


----------



## jp5 (Nov 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, they are going to negotiate a better deal and then have a referendum as to accept it or stay in?

Doesn't it occur to them that the EU would prefer us to stay in as we prop the thing up with our payments, so, they aren't going to offer any deal that means we leave, given that, under this plan we do not leave anyway whichever way it was to go?
		
Click to expand...

Corbyn is a leaver anyway so I suspect his deal would be a genuine leave.


----------



## Grant85 (Nov 6, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Early predictions...
Tories will do worse than in 2017 (280 seats)
Labour will do about the same as in 2017. (266 seats)

*I think the Tories will make same mistakes as 2017... underestimating the task of keeping a campaign going for 6 weeks without getting shown up on domestic policy*. Also underestimating strength of Labour (and Corbyn) in campaign mode.
		
Click to expand...

Seems like this is already happening with 2 big 'bad news' stories dominating coverage yesterday in terms of Alun Cairns being found out to lie about his former aide's involvement in the collapse in a rape trial, as well as Jacob Reese Mogg stating the Grenfell residents lacked common sense in abiding by fire service advice to 'stay put' in the tower. Not to mention Andrew Bridgen then effectively backing up Mogg!

And Boris comparing Corbyn to Stalin... a dictator, mass murderer and ethnic cleanser!?!? Completely ridiculous. 

Ultimately I believe most Tories (at MP / Cabinet level) are pretty much in it for themselves and while they may be able to operate effectively in the bubble of parliament, with a civil service / staff at their disposal... but put them into a radio or TV studio and their true colours show. Ultimately they don't really care about people or even what policies they can put in place - they simply care about being in power, more so than anything else.

*Can they really keep this going for another 5 weeks without further stories like this breaking!?!?*


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## ger147 (Nov 6, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree about the apathetic voting but I just laugh at these "smaller" parties insisting they can come to power. I do think some of them can very much influence proceedings and feel the Lib Dems and the greens will both make some inroads into the Tory and Labour seats around the country this time around but running the country.....?
		
Click to expand...

The LibDems were in government as recently as 2015...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also for all those in favour of copy pasting tweets from right wing commentators or the Tory party itself, worth a read.  There's no need for the Ruskies to start falsifying the truth or spreading false information, as the Tories are happily doing it in plain sight. Which has no doubt been retweeted by the usual suspects who some on here see as reliable news sources.

Some might argue we are witnessing the dismantling of a proper democracy based on free and fair elections before our very eyes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191732381306277890

Click to expand...

Apparently this is so obviously 'faked' it should've been ignored anyway... According to the very unclever James Cleverly... So why do it?


----------



## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The LibDems were in government as recently as 2015...
		
Click to expand...

And, remain in complete denial about the 'damage' they caused...


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, they are going to negotiate a better deal and then have a referendum as to accept it or stay in?

Doesn't it occur to them that the EU would prefer us to stay in as we prop the thing up with our payments, so, they aren't going to offer any deal that means we leave, given that, under this plan we do not leave anyway whichever way it was to go?
		
Click to expand...


If there was another ref it should be

1. Remain with better terms than we have now.
2. Remain with same deal as before that leaves us Â£170 million out of pocket per month.
3. Leave without any deal.

That should do it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2019)

Just like the 2017 election, Corbyn is proving to be an effective orator and campaigner. I 'love' his use of closed questions where he asks the electorate a question that only has one compassionate answer. Unfortunately, with the Tory ineptitude at present it looks like Labour will make up ground and it could be another hung parliament - nothing will get sorted.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			And, remain in complete denial about the 'damage' they caused...
		
Click to expand...

Different perspective they damaged themselves because Nick said â€œyesâ€ to Dave too much. 
All the things that government did were Tory policy and the Liberal Centerist policies were ignored. 
This made most centre supporters depressed as they thought their voices would be heard. In the end it was liberal self harm.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have a big like.

Brexit has certainly focused the parties and also given the electorate a huge chance to influence the outcome once and for all - hopefully.

Totally agree with your last sentence. *Until a govt knows where Brexit is going, it won't know how much money it has to play with*.
		
Click to expand...

I rather suspect the government has a reasonably good idea but doesn't want to tell us as it might undermine the affordability of their pre-election spending (I hesitate to use the word) 'promises'.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...id-boris-johnson-economy-damage-a9161391.html

That notwithstanding, our impressive Chancellor of the Exchequer is bullish in rejecting the need for economic analysis of the deal - who needs such analysis when making spending promises when you can say...

_â€œIt is self-evident that what we have achieved in terms of this deal is the right way forward for the economy, much better than any alternative,â€ _

Which is good to know.

"All you need is a little faith, trust, and pixie dust."--Peter Pan


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I rather suspect the government has a reasonably good idea but doesn't want to tell us as it might undermine the affordability of their pre-election spending (I hesitate to use the word) 'promises'.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...id-boris-johnson-economy-damage-a9161391.html

That notwithstanding, our impressive Chancellor of the Exchequer is bullish in rejecting the need for economic analysis of the deal - who needs such analysis when making spending promises when you can say...

_â€œIt is self-evident that what we have achieved in terms of this deal is the right way forward for the economy, much better than any alternative,â€ _

Which is good to know.

"All you need is a little faith, trust, and pixie dust."--Peter Pan
		
Click to expand...

If you consider what the Chancellor hasn't said in that sentence, he's probably right. The alternative was more harmful, i.e. No Deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you consider what the Chancellor hasn't said in that sentence, he's probably right. The alternative was more harmful, i.e. No Deal.
		
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Indeed - however as the analysis will probably show Johnson's Deal being positive relative to No Deal - it will likely also show the projected impact of No Deal.  There therefore might be benefit to Johnson putting analysis out there to undermine Farage and Friends, and those in the ERG who are supporting Johnson's Deal in the expectation that we can't agree a trade deal by July 2020 when we'd have to request an extension - and no extension requested and we leave with No Deal.


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## drdel (Nov 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - however as the analysis will probably show Johnson's Deal being positive relative to No Deal - it will likely also show the projected impact of No Deal.  There therefore might be benefit to Johnson putting analysis out there to undermine Farage and Friends, and those in the ERG who are supporting Johnson's Deal in the expectation that we can't agree a trade deal by July 2020 when we'd have to request an extension - and no extension requested and we leave with No Deal.
		
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I think you may indeed be right so I agree but I'd come at it from a different direction to yourself. IMO, as I've mentioned before, the EU's historic style in any of its negotiations and why they often take so long is because its a weird decision making set-up between the Brussels cliche and the 27/8 member nations. This means for Barnier (and the other examples of EU negotiators with Canada, Swiss, Greece, Italy, Poland etc) time is something their arrogance tells then is on their side. Consequently for Barnier (personally) stonewalling is a safe tactic because he is never in a position of having to 'sell' a compromise (in his eyes a failing) of any sort to the member states. This means everything goes down to the wire.

As long as we are a member we will be subjected to the stonewall tactics: IMO that we need to leave on a No Deal basis to break this cycle. This is the only way the heat from the r27 member nations will be felt by Brussels/Barnier and encourage a sensible debate


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think you may indeed be right so I agree but I'd come at it from a different direction to yourself. IMO, as I've mentioned before, the EU's historic style in any of its negotiations and why they often take so long is because its a weird decision making set-up between the Brussels cliche and the 27/8 member nations. This means for Barnier (and the other examples of EU negotiators with Canada, Swiss, Greece, Italy, Poland etc) time is something their arrogance tells then is on their side. Consequently for Barnier (personally) stonewalling is a safe tactic because he is never in a position of having to 'sell' a compromise (in his eyes a failing) of any sort to the member states. This means everything goes down to the wire.

As long as we are a member we will be subjected to the stonewall tactics: IMO that we need to leave on a No Deal basis to break this cycle. This is the only way the heat from the r27 member nations will be felt by Brussels/Barnier and encourage a sensible debate
		
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I understand and agree with the reasoning about leaving with No Deal but it does come with an element of risk. Getting various trade deals through will, as you've highlighted take quite a while. During that time tariffs will be in place. Adding 10% costs to companies importing goods will impact those companies by some margin, and expecting the UK govt to be nimble enough to mitigate those tariffs is very risky. 

Also, when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented the need for the full 27 countries to agree in certain areas will be reduced due to the new, qualified majority required to pass legislation - not sure if that includes trade treaties.

No Deal is attractive but comes with a huge amount of uncertainty for business.


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## drdel (Nov 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I understand and agree with the reasoning about leaving with No Deal but it does come with an element of risk. Getting various trade deals through will, as you've highlighted take quite a while. During that time tariffs will be in place. Adding 10% costs to companies importing goods will impact those companies by some margin, and expecting the UK govt to be nimble enough to mitigate those tariffs is very risky.

Also, when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented the need for the full 27 countries to agree in certain areas will be reduced due to the new, qualified majority required to pass legislation - not sure if that includes trade treaties.

No Deal is attractive but comes with a huge amount of uncertainty for business.
		
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Yup I wouldn't disagree. Its my reluctant conclusion. My concern would also be that with a 'hung' Parliament the debacle will drag on and the Lisbon Treaty implications would stifle any hope the UK may have of driving change as the CoG of the 'majority' decisions would IMO go the newer Eastern bloc states.


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## chrisd (Nov 6, 2019)

Liberal Democrats pledge to spend Â£2.2bn a year on mental health - from BBC News Web Site
I guess it's to help those poor souls who vote LD in the election as they certainly are in need of help!


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## robinthehood (Nov 6, 2019)

chrisd said:




Liberal Democrats pledge to spend Â£2.2bn a year on mental health - from BBC News Web Site
I guess it's to help those poor souls who vote LD in the election as they certainly are in need of help!
		
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Making light of mental health.
Disgusting.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Making light of mental health.
Disgusting.
		
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Totally ignorant that care in community amounts to homelessness, violence and police time.. obviously totally disconnected from reality.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2019)

Andrew Neil being absolutely brutal tonight .


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2019)

Tom Watson stands down as deputy and MP, guess Labour win or lose he knew his time was coming.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Totally ignorant that care in community amounts to homelessness, violence and police time.. obviously totally disconnected from reality.
		
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Or he was having a laugh, the way most people would have seen it.


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## ger147 (Nov 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Tom Watson stands down as deputy and MP, guess Labour win or lose he knew his time was coming.
		
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I'm sure Momentum would have managed to dump him as deputy leader in due course and the best he could have hoped for in the future was ending up the Labour spokesman for Gas Lights and Peat Bogs, so might as well walk before he gets flung under the bus...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Tom Watson stands down as deputy and MP, guess Labour win or lose he knew his time was coming.
		
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Probably concerned his nonce finder general days are about to come back and bite him, well that and Corbyns KGB are after him.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Andrew Neil being absolutely brutal tonight .
		
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Nice to see him rip both main parties to shreds, the poor old Labour boy didn't have a chance, it was getting embarrassing.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or he was having a laugh, the way most people would have seen it.
		
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Or he wasnâ€™t given his normal posts


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 6, 2019)

One of Labour's policies is renationalising energy, water and sewage (amongst other things). This could obviously be very expensive. Is there anything that stops the government from setting up its own supplier in those areas and simply charging lower prices? This would then force existing companies to lower their prices and as a result bring down the profits and value of the companies making it cheaper for them to be bought. I assume that the biggest problem with this approach would be the hit that pension funds would take but is there anything to stop it happening?


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			One of Labour's policies is renationalising energy, water and sewage (amongst other things). This could obviously be very expensive. Is there anything that stops the government from setting up its own supplier in those areas and simply charging lower prices? This would then force existing companies to lower their prices and as a result bring down the profits and value of the companies making it cheaper for them to be bought. I assume that the biggest problem with this approach would be the hit that pension funds would take but is there anything to stop it happening?
		
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Who's infrastructure would they use


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Who's infrastructure would they use
		
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I've no idea, hence the question as to whether it was possible. But if I can swap my energy supplier whenever I want then I assumed that a government backed energy supplier could use existing infrastructure. I appreciate it might be more difficult with water/sewage as I can't switch those.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea, hence the question as to whether it was possible. But if I can swap my energy supplier whenever I want then I assumed that a government backed energy supplier could use existing infrastructure. I appreciate it might be more difficult with water/sewage as I can't switch those.
		
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I would have though that once you factor in infrastructure rental cost plus salaries it would cost more but who knows. Labour seem to think we have enough money to re-nationalise everything.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

They would just legislate the profit out of the business .. then the price drops and job done. But that will take years


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2019)

If they were to re-nationalise Thames Water not too many tears would be shed...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If they were to re-nationalise Thames Water not too many tears would be shed...
		
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And any tears that were shed  would get lost in the pipework


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			And any tears that were shed  would get lost in the pipework
		
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Thatâ€™s the problem, bring in the legislation that all the infrastructure must be fixed.


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## Beezerk (Nov 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Tom Watson stands down as deputy and MP, guess Labour win or lose he knew his time was coming.
		
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So Labour swing even further left, great.


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## larmen (Nov 7, 2019)

They need to split. The purge has already started, moderates have lost the party. There is no fixing from within anymore. Well, that is just my opinion.


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Tom Watson stands down as deputy and MP, guess Labour win or lose he knew his time was coming.
		
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Will Diane Abbott get his job?
That would make my year


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 7, 2019)

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/11/06/vi...laiming-swinsons-own-words-were-media-praise/

A big boy dun it an ran away, honest.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

larmen said:



			They need to split. The purge has already started, moderates have lost the party. There is no fixing from within anymore. Well, that is just my opinion.
		
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Broken flush.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Making light of mental health.
Disgusting.
		
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OMG

This is why the country is where it is. It's a bluddy joke. Good god almighty. Utterly ridiculous response.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea, hence the question as to whether it was possible. But if I can swap my energy supplier whenever I want then I assumed that a government backed energy supplier could use existing infrastructure. I appreciate it might be more difficult with water/sewage as I can't switch those.
		
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You can switch your water supplier, they just don't advertise the fact very loudly.


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## IanM (Nov 7, 2019)

I don't think any of the Party Leaders are appropriate PM material for a who raft of reasons.  Can the country issue an instruction for all of them to go back and try a bit harder?


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			OMG

This is why the country is where it is. It's a bluddy joke. Good god almighty. Utterly ridiculous response.
		
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Yes certainly from one of us.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes certainly from one of us.
		
Click to expand...


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:





Click to expand...

Make that 2.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Make that 2.
		
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For tea?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 7, 2019)

IanM said:



			I don't think any of the Party Leaders are appropriate PM material for a who raft of reasons.  Can the country issue an instruction for all of them to go back and try a bit harder?
		
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Absolutely farcical 'leaders' debate.
Should be called an England only issue to avoid all the UK misinformation that the pair will spout.
Sky apologies to the SNP saying they did not mean to upset them, aye not much [or more likely pig ignorant arrogant]


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## Grant85 (Nov 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Seems like this is already happening with 2 big 'bad news' stories dominating coverage yesterday in terms of Alun Cairns being found out to lie about his former aide's involvement in the collapse in a rape trial, as well as Jacob Reese Mogg stating the Grenfell residents lacked common sense in abiding by fire service advice to 'stay put' in the tower. Not to mention Andrew Bridgen then effectively backing up Mogg!

And Boris comparing Corbyn to Stalin... a dictator, mass murderer and ethnic cleanser!?!? Completely ridiculous.

Ultimately I believe most Tories (at MP / Cabinet level) are pretty much in it for themselves and while they may be able to operate effectively in the bubble of parliament, with a civil service / staff at their disposal... but put them into a radio or TV studio and their true colours show. Ultimately they don't really care about people or even what policies they can put in place - they simply care about being in power, more so than anything else.

*Can they really keep this going for another 5 weeks without further stories like this breaking!?!?*

Click to expand...

well this did not age well. 

Yesterday evening Tom Watson standing down - you have to imagine because he simply doesn't align with the leadership and much of the membership and didn't have the stomach for another 5 years of trying to keep his shoulder to the fire door to prevent the moderates being completely sidelined. 

And this morning former Labour minister Ian Austin absolutely savaging Corbyn and encouraging people on Live tele to actually vote Conservative to put Johnson in rather than Corbyn. 

Certainly de-rails Labour completely in terms of the coverage and keeps the Tories off the back-foot.


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## Grant85 (Nov 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Absolutely farcical 'leaders' debate.
Should be called an England only issue to avoid all the UK misinformation that the pair will spout.
Sky apologies to the SNP saying they did not mean to upset them, aye not much [or more likely pig ignorant arrogant]
		
Click to expand...

Ultimately Sky know that almost certainly Boris would not show up if the debate was opened up to other parties. Head to Head with Corbyn, they can cope with as it's one against the other. I saw Gove being very evasive on whether the Tories would turn up to the Sky debate, which would include Jo Swinson. They certainly aren't as keen as they were for the ITV debate. 

With these events, as soon as your introduce another 1 or 2 debaters, the governing party run the risk of getting savaged for 3/4 of the time and will always be on the backfoot. I guess that is part of being the government and we see it in Scotland with the SNP tending to bear the brunt from 3 out of 5 debaters spending most of their time criticising them. 

Personally feel parties should be mandated to take part in these with a clear qualification criteria for participation whether it is a certain %age of the vote or a certain no. of seats at the last election (in reality it should be a fairly low bar - like 5% of the vote or 10 seats). 

This would also mean it wasn't completely pointless for the smaller parties to field candidates and spend a huge amount of time and money to gain a few million votes and zero seats. People would genuinely have a reason to stand and people would genuinely have a reason to vote for them in order to try and give them a platform at the next election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Making light of mental health.
Disgusting.
		
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A bit like our splendid Chancellor of the Exchequer apparently going to refer to Corbyn and McDonnell as 'anti-vaxxers'.

However now that the Tory Spin-masters have got that message out there, Javid will no doubt deny he was ever going to make such a comparison - but the message is out there...

And there was me thinking that the political parties were being exhorted to refrain from using inflammatory language in personal attacks on their opponents.  Ah well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or he was having a laugh, the way most people would have seen it.
		
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In the way that Cleverly was yesterday insisting that the doctored Keir Starmer video was a) cut short for posting purposes - then b) obviously satirical given the jolly plinky-plonky music.

Yup - the Tories are such a bunch of jolly-japers...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So Labour swing even further left, great.
		
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Quite - not great for me.  I look at the sort of voice that Labour is losing and it's not good.  Makes it harder for me to go there any time soon.

Anyway - I see that the Remain Alliance have agreed that the Greens will not stand in my constituency.  Wondering if the National Health Action Party will now stand aside.  It's a pity that the NHA Party candidate at the last election was excellent - whereas the LibDem candidate was less so - he was OK - but not up to Dr Louise Irvine standard - and as a result she got 20% of the vote in 2017.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A bit like our splendid Chancellor of the Exchequer apparently going to refer to Corbyn and McDonnell as 'anti-vaxxers'.

However now that the Tory Spin-masters have got that message out there, Javid will no doubt deny he was ever going to make such a comparison - but the message is out there...

And there was me thinking that the political parties were being exhorted to refrain from using inflammatory language in personal attacks on their opponents.  Ah well.
		
Click to expand...

Be interested to know which party you have found that isn't involved in these idiotic statements. Or do I presume you won't support any of them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be interested to know which party you have found that isn't involved in these idiotic statements. Or do I presume you won't support any of them.
		
Click to expand...

I'm really not interested in 'whatabootery'.  It's either acceptable or it's not.  For me it's not - from anyone about anyone.  Politics somehow has to be de-toxified because it just fuels the anger in society that has split us.  Criticise as much as they might - but keep the vile comparisons and epithets out of it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm really not interested in 'whatabootery'.  It's either acceptable or it's not.  For me it's not - from anyone about anyone.  Politics somehow has to be de-toxified because it just fuels the anger in society that has split us.  Criticise as much as they might - but keep the vile comparisons and epithets out of it.
		
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Whatabootery, the get out clause for all those that refuse to answer. It's about time you had the courage of your convictions.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Listened to a podcast today talking about the Boris launch speech he did somewhere in the West Mids yesterday. And they said they were there through all the preparations and it was like a military operation and completely staged. Specific people in the crowd got given banners and told where to stand and when to shout etc etc. It was then filmed to look like the place was rammed when it was actually like TOTP where clever camera angles make it look like there are lot more people there than actually are.  Have no doubt for a second this goes on across the board, but another example of just how poorly we are being served by our politicians with most of these type of things being heavily controlled and attended by hard core party acolytes, and how much these things are mostly about image and spin with very little substance.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the way that Cleverly was yesterday insisting that the doctored Keir Starmer video was a) cut short for posting purposes - then b) obviously satirical given the jolly plinky-plonky music.

Yup - the Tories are such a bunch of jolly-japers...

Click to expand...

How do you know what politics Chris follows. It was a joke, if you can't see that then you have a problem but I suspect your just another one try to make a non point. I could just post Whatabootry I suppose but that obviously doesn't apply to you.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 7, 2019)

150 billion labour spend, can't wait to see the costings.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listened to a podcast today talking about the Boris launch speech he did somewhere in the West Mids yesterday. And they said they were there through all the preparations and it was like a military operation and completely staged. Specific people in the crowd got given banners and told where to stand and when to shout etc etc. It was then filmed to look like the place was rammed when it was actually like TOTP where clever camera angles make it look like there are lot more people there than actually are.  Have no doubt for a second this goes on across the board, but another example of just how poorly we are being served by our politicians with most of these type of things being heavily controlled and attended by hard core party acolytes, and how much these things are mostly about image and spin with very little substance.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like a normal political launch by all parties then.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			150 billion labour spend, can't wait to see the costings.
		
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Billionaires mate, billionaires


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2019)

All of what is being said and people leaving is just utter school yard rubbish .. dunno when this really started I remember the Kinnock advert about tax bombs etc .. but it must of happened earlier.
The point is it is about Brexit -
Are you happy with Boris' deal (although the message is pretty sad in "let's get it done" - is kind of desperate)?
Are you happy to have a renegotiation and an opportunity to decide on that or staying .. Labour ?
Do you just accept that given the 3 years and massive efforts and falsehoods that actually just stay and get on with it ?

Forget all the other stuff it's slight of hand to convince the feeble mind that there are other messages to read .. those messages mean nothing, *the Brexit status is key*.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bit like a normal political launch by all parties then.
		
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I literally said that in my post but thanks for replying to every post that mentions the tories and something vaguely uncomplimentary.  You know you can get bots to do that that work out a lot more efficient then employing humans.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I literally said that in my post but thanks for replying to every post that mentions the tories and something vaguely uncomplimentary.  You know you can get bots to do that that work out a lot more efficient then employing humans. 

Click to expand...

Bit like you then, how much is Momentum membership these days.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			How do you know what politics Chris follows. It was a joke, if you can't see that then you have a problem but I suspect your just another one try to make a non point. I could just post Whatabootry I suppose but that obviously doesn't apply to you.
		
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eh?  Chris?  It was Cleverly trying to pretend that the video wasn't doctored to make Starmer look dumbstruck to all those out there viewing it in simply the context of their Social Media, and out of context of the interview as a whole.


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## Beezerk (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listened to a podcast today talking about the Boris launch speech he did somewhere in the West Mids yesterday. And they said they were there through all the preparations and it was like a military operation and completely staged. Specific people in the crowd got given banners and told where to stand and when to shout etc etc. It was then filmed to look like the place was rammed when it was actually like TOTP where clever camera angles make it look like there are lot more people there than actually are.
		
Click to expand...

So just a little bit staged like the Labour conference votes were?


----------



## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			eh?  Chris?  It was Cleverly trying to pretend that the video wasn't doctored to make Starmer look dumbstruck to all those out there viewing it in simply the context of their Social Media, and out of context of the interview as a whole.
		
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You quoted my post referring to the joke and then you threw in your version of Whatabooterie


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 7, 2019)

Every launch, every meeting, every walkabout is stage managed with plants (member, activists etc) meeting and asking the questions for EVERY party. Occasionally a real person slips through the net, ask Gordon Brown how well that works?


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Every launch, every meeting, every walkabout is stage managed with plants (member, activists etc) meeting and asking the questions for EVERY party. Occasionally a real person slips through the net, ask Gordon Brown how well that works? 

Click to expand...

Be careful, you'll be accused of taking a job away from a bot.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be careful, you'll be accused of taking a job away from a bot.
		
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I thought Johnson did that !


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bit like you then, how much is Momentum membership these days.
		
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I have only voted Labour a couple of times in my life, and that was for a local MP we used to have who was a great local constituent MP with absolutely no pretensions of getting into cabinet, he was just there to make the life of local residents better where he could.  We now have a momentum type and he probably will not be getting my vote. But feel free to think that just because I am not a fan of most Tory policies that I am a member of momentum.....


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So just a little bit staged like the Labour conference votes were?
		
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Again in a part of my post that you have not copied I said that this will more than likely occurring across all parties. I just have one example with evidence from someone who was there so I was using said evidence and facts.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I have only voted Labour a couple of times in my life, and that was for a local MP we used to have who was a great local constituent MP with absolutely no pretensions of getting into cabinet, he was just there to make the life of local residents better where he could.  We now have a momentum type and he probably will not be getting my vote. But feel free to think that just because I am not a fan of most Tory policies that I am a member of momentum.....
		
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Yep not great being pigeon holed, people always jump to the wrong conclusions


----------



## rudebhoy (Nov 7, 2019)

This is Johnson's launch yesterday, reminds me of the big rally May held up in Northumberland at the start of the last GE. Looked packed on tv, then when they panned out, there was about 20 people there!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

Actually this has given me an idea, instead of banning people, one suggestion might be to change the Status of a poster in their profile to 'Russian bot'. What about it mods


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## MegaSteve (Nov 7, 2019)

Surprised Boris didn't do the launch in his own constituency then he could have boasted about all the good work he's done for his constituents...

On second thoughts....


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## Grant85 (Nov 7, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			This is Johnson's launch yesterday, reminds me of the big rally May held up in Northumberland at the start of the last GE. Looked packed on tv, then when they panned out, there was about 20 people there!
	View attachment 28521

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I really don't understand this. 

I'm sure they could have filled a hall with party members / activists that were vetted appropriately. Doesn't need to be a hanger that size. 
Surely fairly obvious that media would be able to take images like this and show it up as a bit of a sham. 

Are they just so paranoid that one rogue will slip through the net and hold up a Stop Brexit or Boris is Lying sign?


----------



## Mudball (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listened to a podcast today talking about the Boris launch speech he did somewhere in the West Mids yesterday. And they said they were there through all the preparations and it was like a military operation and completely staged. Specific people in the crowd got given banners and told where to stand and when to shout etc etc. It was then filmed to look like the place was rammed when it was actually like TOTP where clever camera angles make it look like there are lot more people there than actually are.  Have no doubt for a second this goes on across the board, but another example of just how poorly we are being served by our politicians with most of these type of things being heavily controlled and attended by hard core party acolytes, and how much these things are mostly about image and spin with very little substance.
		
Click to expand...


A bit like his friend Trump's inauguration then..


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Listened to a podcast today talking about the Boris launch speech he did somewhere in the West Mids yesterday. And they said they were there through all the preparations and it was like a military operation and completely staged. Specific people in the crowd got given banners and told where to stand and when to shout etc etc. It was then filmed to look like the place was rammed when it was actually like TOTP where clever camera angles make it look like there are lot more people there than actually are.  Have no doubt for a second this goes on across the board, but another example of just how poorly we are being served by our politicians with most of these type of things being heavily controlled and attended by hard core party acolytes, and how much these things are mostly about image and spin with very little substance.
		
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Its been the same for decades with any TV stunt / reports.

Many years ago I had to regularly go to Greenham Common and numerous other military bases in the days of the Ban the Bomb campaign. There were usually 15 or 20 campaigners at most forced to huddle against a fence by the news crews. TV news reports at the time had them stand in double rows and took pictures up close and a low camera angle to make it look like hordes of mass protests!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I really don't understand this.

I'm sure they could have filled a hall with party members / activists that were vetted appropriately. Doesn't need to be a hanger that size.
Surely fairly obvious that media would be able to take images like this and show it up as a bit of a sham.

Are they just so paranoid that one rogue will slip through the net and hold up a Stop Brexit or Boris is Lying sign?
		
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It would have been amusing if that one person who slipped through the net was the STOP BREXIT shouty guy.
He is a big fella, so no chance of the Tory MP who grabbed the woman activist by the neck a few months ago taking him on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I really don't understand this.

I'm sure they could have filled a hall with party members / activists that were vetted appropriately. Doesn't need to be a hanger that size.
Surely fairly obvious that media would be able to take images like this and show it up as a bit of a sham.

Are they just so paranoid that one rogue will slip through the net and hold up a Stop Brexit or Boris is Lying sign?
		
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Well there were indeed a few outside that hall protesting...with just those sort of signs...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would have been amusing if that one person who slipped through the net was the STOP BREXIT shouty guy.
He is a big fella, *so no chance of the Tory MP who grabbed the woman activist by the neck a few months ago taking him on*.
		
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Did I read that he's no standing this time...Mark Field blames â€˜fractious and febrileâ€™ atmosphere over Brexit - ah the Tories lose one of their best...wrestlers - or maybe not...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 7, 2019)

When will a Tory leader have the guts to visit Scotland and actually engage with the public.
The last two really do come across as a couple of right fearty cats.

Give Corbyn his due he is not scared to debate publicly in Scotland.
It's just a shame that very few folk turn up to listen to him.


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## larmen (Nov 7, 2019)

Is the guy who prevented the outlawing of up skirting running?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 7, 2019)

larmen said:



			Is the guy who prevented the outlawing of up skirting running?
		
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He has not announced that he is standing down so it looks likely. Nov 14th is the date candidates are announced.

He is in one of the safest Tory seats in the country so unless the opposition parties unite or a neutral candidate stands alone against him he will win again. It needs a Martin Bell v Neil Hamilton challenge.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

larmen said:



			Is the guy who prevented the outlawing of up skirting running?
		
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I'm absolutely sure he will step down.  After all the Tories have managed to lose many long standing MPs who represented the one nation side of the party.  So unless they want to be seen as a party of out of touch objectionable MPs and hard Brexiteers then surely they will let go the person go who blocks many bills including the upskirting and the second reading of the Alan Turing (Statutory Pardon) Bill.  And also who filibustered a private member's bill that would have placed restrictions on hospital parking charges for carers.  But mysteriously does not block bills proposed by his mate Peter Bone.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 7, 2019)

Really? https://news.sky.com/story/general-...ers-to-campaign-in-uk-against-labour-11854965


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 7, 2019)

Could be an interesting few weeks of campaigning if the first two days are anything to go by. Yesterday was a bad day for the Tories. Today it's Labour's turn with a former Labour MP saying that Labour voters should vote for BJ as Corbyn is "unfit to be PM" and another Labout MP quitting in yet another anti-Semitism row.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could be an interesting few weeks of campaigning if the first two days are anything to go by. Yesterday was a bad day for the Tories. Today it's Labour's turn with a former Labour MP saying that Labour voters should vote for BJ as Corbyn is "unfit to be PM" and another Labout MP quitting in yet another anti-Semitism row.
		
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It's probably going to be an election decided by who can do the least worst screw ups. What a time to be alive, you're welcome future generations.....


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's probably going to be an election decided by who can do the least worst screw ups. What a time to be alive, you're welcome future generations.....
		
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And now the Tories jump back into the lead with their candidate for the Broadland seat in Norfolk no longer standing after comments he made in 2014 about rape where he suggested that women should "keep their knickers on". I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry that this is the calibre of people that the main parties think should represent the public.


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## Hobbit (Nov 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And now the Tories jump back into the lead with their candidate for the Broadland seat in Norfolk no longer standing after comments he made in 2014 about rape where he suggested that women should "keep their knickers on". I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry that this is the calibre of people that the main parties think should represent the public.
		
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You've got to ask just how good are the selection committees too. And once you reach a critical mass, it becomes self-perpetuating, e.g. Momentum.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You've got to ask just how good are the selection committees too. And once you reach a critical mass, it becomes self-perpetuating, e.g. Momentum.
		
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My son, 2nd year at university, is told regularly by lecturers to beware of social media. What you post can come back to haunt you. They are taking this from the perspective of employers trawling your accounts before offering an interview but election candidates are discovering that it applies to them in spades as well. This guy made the comments 5 years ago, probably off the cuff, maybe after a couple of beers and not imagining the consequences. 

I doubt local constituency parties are up to the job of properly vetting prospective candidates but media companies certainly are so expect more of these. A little worrying in many ways. If people dig deep enough will anyone be sterile enough to be a candidate?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 8, 2019)

Will there be the televised debates again? I am assuming it'll be a case of how well they come across on these that will influence a lot of people. If Corbyn gets savaged I can see it hurting him at the polls and if there is one thing Johnson is good at is putting on a show and blustering his way through


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My son, 2nd year at university, is told regularly by lecturers to beware of social media. What you post can come back to haunt you. They are taking this from the perspective of employers trawling your accounts before offering an interview but election candidates are discovering that it applies to them in spades as well. This guy made the comments 5 years ago, probably off the cuff, maybe after a couple of beers and not imagining the consequences.
		
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In this case it wasn't social media. He made the comment during a radio discussion about the Ched Evans rape case. 

To paraphrase what he said, it was that some men find it hard to take no as an answer and instead of jumping into bed naked with the man the woman should keep her knickers on.


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## Hobbit (Nov 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My son, 2nd year at university, is told regularly by lecturers to beware of social media. What you post can come back to haunt you. They are taking this from the perspective of employers trawling your accounts before offering an interview but election candidates are discovering that it applies to them in spades as well. This guy made the comments 5 years ago, probably off the cuff, maybe after a couple of beers and not imagining the consequences.

I doubt local constituency parties are up to the job of properly vetting prospective candidates but media companies certainly are so expect more of these. A little worrying in many ways. If people dig deep enough will anyone be sterile enough to be a candidate?
		
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Leadership comes from the top. Its up to the central office to put the processes in place to stop this from happening. They're multi-million pound organisations being run like a WRVS tea party.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 8, 2019)

What I don't get is why we have five weeks of electioneering. Lies lies and more lies for five weeks. I would suggest 100% of people who are going to vote know exactly which bunch of muppets they are going to support. So why wait?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			In this case it wasn't social media. He made the comment during a radio discussion about the Ched Evans rape case.

To paraphrase what he said, it was that some men find it hard to take no as an answer and instead of jumping into bed naked with the man the woman should keep her knickers on.
		
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Ooo, I had not followed that. I should, add, I was not defending his comments, it was more a general point about what I thought was a social media post made in the past. Thank you for making it clear.


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			What I don't get is why we have five weeks of electioneering. Lies lies and more lies for five weeks. I would suggest 100% of people who are going to vote know exactly which bunch of muppets they are going to support. So why wait?
		
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Agree.. however the 5 weeks is more to get the administrative and logistics in place for the elections. Important things like Nativity plays will have to be make way for these poll-dancers


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Will there be the televised debates again? I am assuming it'll be a case of how well they come across on these that will influence a lot of people. If Corbyn gets savaged I can see it hurting him at the polls and *if there is one thing Johnson is good at is putting on a show and blustering his way through*

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Mostly true I think - though it does rather irritate this viewer/listener.

However - I don't think his bluster was that successful in his interview by Andrew Neil in the lead up to the Tory Party leadership election.  The interview revealed that when pressed hard on something difficult he can become irritable - bringing out a rather snidey pointy-finger character in the guy that we don't usually see and that is rather the opposite of the fun, determined cuddly-chap image he likes to present to us.


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## Hobbit (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think his bluster was that successful in his interview by Andrew Neil in the lead up to the Tory Party leadership election.  The interview revealed that when pressed hard on something he can become irritable - bringing out a rather snidey pointy-finger character in the guy that we don't usually see.
		
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I think he's very poor off script. And the way he changes the subject so soon after being asked a question only highlights the fact he's dodging it. Unfortunately it appears that the UK is succumbing to the USA's version of a popularity contest rather than a genuine election of people that are honest, vocational people.


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think he's very poor off script. And the way he changes the subject so soon after being asked a question only highlights the fact he's dodging it. Unfortunately it appears that the UK is succumbing to the USA's version of a popularity contest rather than a genuine election of people that are honest, vocational people.
		
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Yup, however the media age in which we live want to create and destroy 'celebrity' types and engineer controversy for entertainment (viewing figures), news has become a show/story. The interviewers themselves also want to enhance their own reputations so facts and truth is a sideline. Anyone who has had to undertake 'media' training will know that, whatever the question, you must stick to 'your/company' message!!

Few 'genuine' people would want to put themselves into the frame/circus when there are much better paid careers.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And now the Tories jump back into the lead with their candidate for the Broadland seat in Norfolk no longer standing after comments he made in 2014 about rape where he suggested that women should "keep their knickers on". *I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry that this is the calibre of people that the main parties think should represent the public*.
		
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I think we often get what we deserve in the FPTP system we use.  The parties rely on their core voters not really questioning what they stand for now and always putting their tick in the same box. In the past that was possibly understandable as with a few exceptions, you know where the parties stood and there was not that much variation.  However now both the main parties have lurched to the left or right and are getting rid of the more moderate type of MPs who previous voters may have associated with. So there is an argument to say they are very different parties now to what people voted for in the past. And although it has always been the case, it is even more pronounced that their main argument is vote for us as the other ones are mostly awful.  And there is a strong argument to say that is true. In which case we are choosing between various levels of awfulness.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

Did I just hear Sturgeon state that Labour Party commitment to removal of Trident from the Clyde would be a precondition for SNP supporting Labour in the event of a hung parliament?  Might not have been said in quite that way but I am she sure that she did raise Trident in the context of Labour.  We'll see when we get the reporting of the speech and follow-up answers to questions.

And on NI access to the SM - well Sturgeon is very clear that what's good for the NI goose is good for the Scottish gander.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup, however the media age in which we live want to create and destroy 'celebrity' types and engineer controversy for entertainment (viewing figures), news has become a show/story. The interviewers themselves also want to enhance their own reputations so facts and truth is a sideline. Anyone who has had to undertake 'media' training will know that, whatever the question, you must stick to 'your/company' message!!

Few 'genuine' people would want to put themselves into the frame/circus when there are much better paid careers.
		
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Are you suggesting that Johnson is not (may not be) genuine? 

I think with the Neil interview we saw the actor's mask slip...we saw the person reflected in the words reportedly said by his g/friend over the Red Wine Incident.


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you suggesting that Johnson is not (may not be) genuine?

*I think with the Neil interview we saw the actor's mask slip*...we saw the person reflected in the words reportedly said by his g/friend over the Red Wine Incident.
		
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Which interview was that.. i might have missed it.  I love BoJo interviews.. he sounds like a school head boy and has the energy of one.     (apologies to any head boys insulted by that statement)


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you suggesting that Johnson is not (may not be) genuine?

I think with the Neil interview we saw the actor's mask slip...we saw the person reflected in the words reportedly said by his g/friend over the Red Wine Incident.
		
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It was a reply to Hobbit - I quite deliberately did not name ANY or attempt to insult current politicians - that, IMO, seems to be your raison d'etre.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 8, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-11-08/nicola-sturgeon-jeremy-corbyn-snp-labour-general-election-2019/


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## patricks148 (Nov 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.itv.com/news/2019-11-08/nicola-sturgeon-jeremy-corbyn-snp-labour-general-election-2019/

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a winner both ways then


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Which interview was that.. i might have missed it.  I love BoJo interviews.. he sounds like a school head boy and has the energy of one.     (apologies to any head boys insulted by that statement)
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...il-tests-boris-johnson-s-knowledge-of-gatt-24


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## patricks148 (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...il-tests-boris-johnson-s-knowledge-of-gatt-24

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when i first saw this the bit in Father Ted sprange to mind when they tell Father Jack to just say " that would be an Equimenical matter " to any question hes asked


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

Oh dear - the education of some candidates - Labour candidate for Clacton didn't know who Shylock was - just a term he and his mates used for someone who "relentlessly tries to get what they want".

I suppose it's quite possible he never came across Shakespeare at school - but I do rather struggle with the idea that he's never come across The Merchant of Venice in his 'adulthood'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			when i first saw this the bit in Father Ted sprange to mind when they tell Father Jack to just say " that would be an Equimenical matter " to any question hes asked

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That bit where Johnson has a go at Neil for "not getting the detail right" and goes all pointy finger - I have a shameful little dream in which Neil leans over and punches Johnson...

In reality there was no need as Johnson goes on to make a fool of himself:

Neil: How would you handle paragraph 5C?
Johnson: I would confide entirely in Paragraph 5B.
...
Neil: Do you know what's in paragraph 5C?
Johnson: No
Neil: I thought you were a man of detail

LOL

Or not so funny as Paragraph 5c is the important one in respect of just coming out of the EU and trading under WTO Gatt Article 24.

Of which we do not hear so much these days - specifically perhaps from previous enthusiastic proponents of Gatt 24 such as JR-M.

But of course - I must not forget - we have a microwave-ready WA just sitting there waiting to be warmed up and devoured once the Tories win a majority in the GE...yum...


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - the education of some candidates - Labour candidate for Clacton didn't know who Shylock was - just a term he and his mates used for someone who "relentlessly tries to get what they want".

I suppose it's quite possible he never came across Shakespeare at school - but I do rather struggle with the idea that he's never come across The Merchant of Venice in his 'adulthood'.
		
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Having lectured to postgraduates for decades at many universities here and overseas believe me a knowledge of the literature 'classics' is not a very good sign of an education or indicator of intelligence.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - the education of some candidates - L*abour candidate for Clacton didn't know who Shylock was* - just a term he and his mates used for someone who "relentlessly tries to get what they want".

I suppose it's quite possible he never came across Shakespeare at school - but I do rather struggle with the idea that he's never come across The Merchant of Venice in his 'adulthood'.
		
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Thick tosser, haven't they seen the Benedict Cumberbatch version on TV with Martin Freeman and Una Stubbs???  Jeez, these potential MPs are so out of touch.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - the education of some candidates - Labour candidate for Clacton didn't know who Shylock was - just a term he and his mates used for someone who "relentlessly tries to get what they want".

I suppose it's quite possible he never came across Shakespeare at school - but I do rather struggle with the idea that he's never come across The Merchant of Venice in his 'adulthood'.
		
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I believe most people are put off Shakespeare by how it is taught at school. I had The Merchant of Venice as my O level book. Absolute torture and I have never wanted to read or see any other Shakespeare related play since. Why would you expect people to come across Shakespeare in adulthood when they are put off it in childhood?

More than feasible that an adult does not know the reality of who Shylock is or what the use of it might mean. You are in danger of sounding like Mr Rees-Mogg on this one


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That bit where Johnson has a go at Neil for "not getting the detail right" and goes all pointy finger - I have a shameful little dream in which Neil leans over and punches Johnson...

In reality there was no need as Johnson goes on to make a fool of himself:

Neil: How would you handle paragraph 5C?
Johnson: I would confide entirely in Paragraph 5B.
...
Neil: Do you know what's in paragraph 5C?
Johnson: No
Neil: I thought you were a man of detail

LOL

Or not so funny as Paragraph 5c is the important one in respect of just coming out of the EU and trading under WTO Gatt Article 24.

Of which we do not hear so much these days - specifically perhaps from previous enthusiastic proponents of Gatt 24 such as JR-M.

But of course - I must not forget - we have a microwave-ready WA just sitting there waiting to be warmed up and devoured once the Tories win a majority in the GE...yum...
		
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Sounds like you nearly wet yourself


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Having lectured to postgraduates for decades at many universities here and overseas believe me a knowledge of the literature 'classics' is not a very good sign of an education or indicator of intelligence.
		
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I do not doubt - but I'd have thought that for anyone looking to be an MP - a bit of Shakespeare and such as The Merchant of Venice would be General Knowledge.  That said I suspect that many who profess such a knowledge will believe Shakespeare to be responsible for 'Oh what a tangled web we weave...'


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not doubt - but I'd have thought that for anyone looking to be an MP - a bit of Shakespeare and such as The Merchant of Venice would be General Knowledge.  That said I suspect that many who profess such a knowledge will believe Shakespeare to be responsible for 'Oh what a tangled web we weave...'
		
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Snobbish - I'd rather they studied Economics, Finance, Engineering, Computing etc instead of Latin and Classics, etc which philistine that I am, I consider as much use as a chocolate fireguard.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Snobbish - I'd rather they studied Economics, Finance, Engineering, Computing etc instead of Latin and Classics, etc which philistine that I am, I consider as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
		
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Iâ€™m sure the classics will go down a storm with the people of Hartlepool once Richard Tice starts quoting them to them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2019)

Well - and there was me thinking that knowing Shylock was a Shakespearean Jewish money lender character would have been general knowledge. Ah well.

Though if he didnâ€™t know of the Shylock character and that Shylock was Jewish how can he have been deemed to be anti-Semitic?


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## 2blue (Nov 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m sure the classics will go down a storm with the people of Hartlepool once Richard Tice starts quoting them to them.

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Dont know what it's like at Seaham but each time I'm up at Seaton I hear very old 'Shakespeareian' references to the immigrant friends that, in Leeds, are pretty good mates of mine. Language that was acceptable some 30 or 40 years ago but that I'd just not hear in Leeds anymore....  well very, very rarely & certainly not in a Golf Club.
"Tis, sadly, very clear to me how the area voted Brexit.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And now the Tories jump back into the lead with their candidate for the Broadland seat in Norfolk no longer standing after comments he made in 2014 about rape where he suggested that women should "keep their knickers on". I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry that this is the calibre of people that the main parties think should represent the public.
		
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So it seems that today Labour have told the Tories to "hold my pint" while they get back into the fight with two potential candidates having to stand down due to opinions that could be considered anti-Semitic and a third due to comments that meant he was accused of being a misogynist. It really is becoming an election of trying to find the least worst rather than the best party.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 8, 2019)

2blue said:



			Dont know what it's like at Seaham but each time I'm up at Seaton I hear very old 'Shakespeareian' references to the immigrant friends that, in Leeds, are pretty good mates of mine. Language that was acceptable some 30 or 40 years ago but that I'd just not hear in Leeds anymore....  well very, very rarely & certainly not in a Golf Club.
"Tis, sadly, very clear to me how the area voted Brexit.
		
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Townies mate, very strange breed!
They deserve what they get!
Donâ€™t forget they hung the monkey because they thought it was French!


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## Dando (Nov 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - and there was me thinking that knowing Shylock was a Shakespearean Jewish money lender character would have been general knowledge. Ah well.

Though if he didnâ€™t know of the Shylock character and that Shylock was Jewish how can he have been deemed to be anti-Semitic?
		
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I had no idea who Shylock was


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## spongebob59 (Nov 9, 2019)

This has got to be a joke ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜•


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193067096533602304


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 9, 2019)

Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind


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## spongebob59 (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind
		
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It'll basically be membership of the EU without any voting rights, from what I understand, so worse than remain, which I guess is the whole point.


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## IainP (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind
		
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Can't answer, even if you meant "better deal with EU" ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind
		
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Probably in the same way some of us believed when we were told boris had no chance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This has got to be a joke ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜•


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193067096533602304

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Of course itâ€™s a joke itâ€™s printed on toilet paper!


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## Beezerk (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind
		
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Well quite, when he does finally give a "meaningful" statement on Brexit it's just hot air and empty promises.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			It'll basically be membership of the EU without any voting rights, from what I understand, so worse than remain, which I guess is the whole point.
		
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Then he's going to vote against it in a referendum ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then he's going to vote against it in a referendum ðŸ˜‚
		
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Any different to what TM did, ie, voted Leave then fought for a deal or boris voting to Leave and voting against TMâ€™s deal.
Weird how these standards only apply in one direction.


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## Imurg (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course itâ€™s a joke itâ€™s printed on toilet paper!
		
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Problem is that, no matter what is printed, published or posted, we just don't know what is and what isn't factual.
This is almost certainly garbage but some will believe it
Next there will be something rubbishing the Tories or the LibDems or SNP or whoever
And we won't know for sure if it's fake or fact.
How the hell is anyone supposed to make an informed decision when theres so much crap being thrown about in-between the truths...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Problem is that, no matter what is printed, published or posted, we just don't know what is and what isn't factual.
This is almost certainly garbage but some will believe it
Next there will be something rubbishing the Tories or the LibDems or SNP or whoever
And we won't know for sure if it's fake or fact.
How the hell is anyone supposed to make an informed decision when theres so much crap being thrown about in-between the truths...
		
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But itâ€™s the sun, I wouldnâ€™t even believe the date in that rag.


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## Imurg (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But itâ€™s the sun, I wouldnâ€™t even believe the date in that rag.

Click to expand...

You, me and a host of others
But some Joe Average down the road will


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

Imurg said:



			You, me and a host of others
But some Joe Average down the road will
		
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Oh yes of course, you mean those that support the Brexit, UKIP and BNP parties.


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## Dando (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh yes of course, you mean those that support the Brexit, UKIP and BNP parties. 

Click to expand...

Aka swivel eyed loons


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Snobbish - I'd rather they studied Economics, Finance, Engineering, Computing etc instead of Latin and Classics, etc which philistine that I am, I consider as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
		
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No, not snobbish to know some Shakespeare and acknowledge his works as the greatest use  of the English language there has ever been. It will never be equalled .
I agree that the modern world is better served with the subjects you mention being learned by today's children, but that doesn't mean that the best of the arts , or other subjects, should be neglected or derided.
Your post's tone can be taken as suggesting that.

An engineer can be brilliant in his field, but displaying a lack of basic general knowledge may undermine his standing amongst those he needs to influence professionally .


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably in the same way some of us believed when we were told boris had no chance.
		
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Aha, now that is a technique known as deflection, are you standing for parliament as you are clearly a pro ðŸ˜‚

Fancy answering the question ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Well quite, when he does finally give a "meaningful" statement on Brexit it's just hot air and empty promises.
		
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He doesnâ€™t, he is offering you an opportunity to renegotiate a deal and then make a choice between it and remain.
Itâ€™s time consuming and yes how many great deals have come out of Europe?
Dunno why no one has realised it yet but there is no great utopian deal, all will be worse than remain .. why would we get a better one?? Also what prep have we done for leaving, have we attempted to strengthen our economy, have we looked at trying to make ourselves a â€œgo toâ€ for some item that they all need ? Basically we have done nothing and achieved nothing in 3 years and some people are not bright enough to realise it.
So simple choice down the pan with Boris and forever having Herr Farage (Cos he has a German passport) saying it could have been this that and the other thing..
or just remain get on with it and make better preparations to leave in the future or try to fashion the EU .

Those are the choices


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Aha, now that is a technique known as deflection, are you standing for parliament as you are clearly a pro ðŸ˜‚

Fancy answering the question ðŸ‘
		
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The answer is easy mate, Corbyn could be the next PM of this country, but as he has never been in that position we can all only guess if he could do a better deal that get us out of EU.
Many many of us are stuck between a rock and a hard place, in that weâ€™d like to see a Labour Government, but without him in charge.
edit: There are also many in the position I was over boris, ie, didnâ€™t trust him at all when he said heâ€™d get the EU to negotiate, but as hobbit rightly pointed out and I had to acknowledge, he did it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But itâ€™s the sun, I wouldnâ€™t even believe the date in that rag.

Click to expand...

If it didn't sell, it would no longer be in business. Don't think I've ever bought one let alone read one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2019)

Chris Cairns with his finger on the pulse, as ever.
And we are off....

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Img417.jpg


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## drdel (Nov 9, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, not snobbish to know some Shakespeare and acknowledge his works as the greatest use  of the English language there has ever been. It will never be equalled .
I agree that the modern world is better served with the subjects you mention being learned by today's children, but that doesn't mean that the best of the arts , or other subjects, should be neglected or derided.
Your post's tone can be taken as suggesting that.

An engineer can be brilliant in his field, but displaying a lack of basic general knowledge may undermine his standing amongst those he needs to influence professionally .
		
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You missed the point and context. I never said it was snobbish to study such subjects. Along the way I've studied and seen Shakespeare's work (not sure his work is the best!) and other literature and arty stuff. I was accusing SILH of making a snobbish comment wrt the politicians he mentioned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If it didn't sell, it would no longer be in business. Don't think I've ever bought one let alone read one.
		
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Me neither, canâ€™t believe anyone with any intelligence buys it.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Any different to what TM did, ie, voted Leave then fought for a deal or boris voting to Leave and voting against TMâ€™s deal.
Weird how these standards only apply in one direction.
		
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Yes it is. He wants to negotiate a new deal, put it to a referendum and then vote against his own deal what ever it is. What Twazzocks would contemplate that, you couldn't make it up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes it is. He wants to negotiate a new deal, put it to a referendum and then vote against his own deal what ever it is. What Twazzocks would contemplate that, you couldn't make it up.
		
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Then Iâ€™ll note your answer and disagree. I believe Thornberry is the only one to publicly say sheâ€™d vote against any deal, but if you can show me Corbyns Quote were he says that he vote against his own deal as  Iâ€™d be interested to read it myself.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can someone explain just how Corbin is going to be able to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Extended use of the word â€œNonâ€ springs to mind
		
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Both Labour and the Tories have made some rather fruity promises about Brexit. Labour are saying they would renegotiate a withdrawal agreement and then put it to the vote all within 6 months of being in government. And the Tories are claiming they will have Brexit done and dusted and be out of the EU by the end of the transition period in Dec 2020, by which time we would have agreed a deal on the future relationship.  Both of which could be said to be rather fanciful.  

I expect Labour's plans are imply to the EU that the withdrawal agreement they want to agree will be more favourable to the EU in terms of closer ties in customs unions etc etc, so the EU will reopen it. Whether other people will see that as 'better' is a matter of opinion, some will and some may well not.  This may lead to rioting on the streets if some are to be believed, or most people just shrugging their shoulders as they are increasingly fed up with the whole thing.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

Actually if labour go for a Norway deal, I think the point of debate is how much to pay ..as the rule set of the relationship are already laid out. So negotiations are purely about the payment. Anything less than current and maintaining independence would appeal to a lot of leavers and some remainers (if they have no chance to remain).
Not sure how much Norway pays, but it could be related to the level of trade. Sure there is someone on here who will tell me! 
Although if you asked the Norwegians they would think we are crazy!!


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## toyboy54 (Nov 9, 2019)

Can I suggest to all that reading the book'2020 World Of War' by Paul  Cornish and Kingsley Donaldson may!!
Please give a truly frightening and yet weirdly possible long game lateral thinking outcome that could come into play given the truly atrocious state of B*ritish politics and the lack of any credible, believable and people who can actually be trusted?
I was brought  up in a Labour voting household and carried that on until I switched to SNP(not because I want/believe in independence)but after John Smith so tragically died then my faith/trust went as I really didn't trust Blair et al.
Can someone bring back John Smith to show what leadership,decency,honesty and real leadership quality is all about!!! (rather than the lying,drooling,bombastity of Johnston,the prfect vacumm of anything really of Corbyn,,,and don't get me started on Mrs.Krankie-the grand failure of ALL services in Scotland)*


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 9, 2019)

toyboy54 said:



			Can I suggest to all that reading the book'2020 World Of War' by Paul  Cornish and Kingsley Donaldson may!!
Please give a truly frightening and yet weirdly possible long game lateral thinking outcome that could come into play given the truly atrocious state of B*ritish politics and the lack of any credible, believable and people who can actually be trusted?
I was brought  up in a Labour voting household and carried that on until I switched to SNP(not because I want/believe in independence)but after John Smith so tragically died then my faith/trust went as I really didn't trust Blair et al.
Can someone bring back John Smith to show what leadership,decency,honesty and real leadership quality is all about!!! (rather than the lying,drooling,bombastity of Johnston,the prfect vacumm of anything really of Corbyn,,,and don't get me started on Mrs.Krankie-the grand failure of ALL services in Scotland)*

Click to expand...

Not quite sure, even with some of the cutting edge scientific breakthroughs that are occurring, we can bring the dead back to life. Although to be honest a promise like that would not look too out of place among the other claims in some parties manifestos.


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## toyboy54 (Nov 9, 2019)

Good point there Hacker,they would probably claim credit and then crap themselves as integrity and gravitas would be like something from another planet arriving.
Something none of them could understand/encompass so should be feared/cast into the wilderness!
But seriously everyone should read the book(I got it from my local library) I couldn't put it down then went back and read it again.
Think I'll get it from a bookshop or Amazon( only if I can't)and send to Mrs.Krankie to read,consider,learn from and then pass the message on to the misguided.
Jimbo


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The answer is easy mate, Corbyn could be the next PM of this country, but as he has never been in that position we can all only guess if he could do a better deal that get us out of EU.
Many many of us are stuck between a rock and a hard place, in that weâ€™d like to see a Labour Government, but without him in charge.
edit: There are also many in the position I was over boris, ie, didnâ€™t trust him at all when he said heâ€™d get the EU to negotiate, but as hobbit rightly pointed out and I had to acknowledge, he did it.
		
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Probably Boris succeeded in getting the EU to negotiate because he had the, very real, leverage of â€œno dealâ€.

Corbyn had demanded â€œno dealâ€ isnâ€™t an option, So just wondering how he is going to succeed, if he gets the chance


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then Iâ€™ll note your answer and disagree. I believe Thornberry is the only one to publicly say sheâ€™d vote against any deal, but if you can show me Corbyns Quote were he says that he vote against his own deal as  Iâ€™d be interested to read it myself.

Click to expand...

He has stated labour will campaign to remain in a referendum so will have to vote against his own deal. Simples.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Probably Boris succeeded in getting the EU to negotiate because he had the, very real, leverage of â€œno dealâ€.

Corbyn had demanded â€œno dealâ€ isnâ€™t an option, So just wondering how he is going to succeed, if he gets the chance
		
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By negotiating , I mean surrendering to a BRINO Brexit, staying in the customs union, single market, freedom of movement and regulatory alignment.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Actually if labour go for a Norway deal, I think the point of debate is how much to pay ..as the rule set of the relationship are already laid out. So negotiations are purely about the payment. Anything less than current and maintaining independence would appeal to a lot of leavers and some remainers (if they have no chance to remain).
Not sure how much Norway pays, but it could be related to the level of trade. Sure there is someone on here who will tell me! 
Although if you asked the Norwegians they would think we are crazy!!
		
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And so we would be, Japan and Canada dont pay the EU for free trade and dont have freedom of movement.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And so we would be, Japan and Canada dont pay the EU for free trade and dont have freedom of movement.
		
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Freedom of movement is required... Japan have an economy that exports and produces domestic components for their big commodities.. we donâ€™t we have sourced throughout Europe.
We are going over old ground here. 
Labour will probably go for a Norway deal


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Freedom of movement is required... Japan have an economy that exports and produces domestic components for their big commodities.. we donâ€™t we have sourced throughout Europe.
We are going over old ground here.
Labour will probably go for a Norway deal
		
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The UK was offered the Canada deal right at the outset by Tusk, but May refused. She wanted something a lot closer to in but not quite in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 9, 2019)

https://twitter.com/foshtown


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 9, 2019)

Swears a bit, makes some good points.  Bots need not view as it will upset them.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:








Swears a bit, makes some good points.  Bots need not view as it will upset them.
		
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I don't normally like his stuff but quite enjoyed that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He has stated labour will campaign to remain in a referendum so will have to vote against his own deal. Simples.
		
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Show me the statement, itâ€™s all I ask please.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Probably Boris succeeded in getting the EU to negotiate because he had the, very real, leverage of â€œno dealâ€.

Corbyn had demanded â€œno dealâ€ isnâ€™t an option, So just wondering how he is going to succeed, if he gets the chance
		
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No he didnâ€™t, heâ€™d already lost that case when he was negotiating, if he no longer had the bluff why didnâ€™t they walk away.
Or was just possible, that just like Corbyn, boris was willing to give them some more of what they wanted?


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Show me the statement, itâ€™s all I ask please.
		
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There is no statement of the intent but it's clear that he intends to follow that path. The EU wont negotiate a decent deal, unless its BRINO so Corbyn has a referendum that is to take the deal,or remain, and he'll campaign the remain option, even though he's a leaver by nature


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			There is no statement of the intent but it's clear that he intends to follow that path. The EU wont negotiate a decent deal, unless its BRINO so Corbyn has a referendum that is to take the deal,or remain, and he'll campaign the remain option, even though he's a leaver by nature
		
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There must be Chris, SR has posted Corbyn has stated so.
None of us trust him, but itâ€™s all conjecture until we see it.
It could be like the last time when MPâ€™s were given a free vote.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There must be Chris, SR has posted Corbyn has stated so.
None of us trust him, but itâ€™s all conjecture until we see it.
It could be like the last time when MPâ€™s were given a free vote.
		
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The irony here is we have JC who is more honest than Boris and yet he isnâ€™t trusted .. really ?
 Are people thinking objectively? ... No not at all


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The irony here is we have JC who is more honest than Boris and yet he isnâ€™t trusted .. really ?
Are people thinking objectively? ... No not at all
		
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Of course they're thinking objectively, but with a different 'pass mark' for them. Nowt wrong with that, that's politics. Your persuasion is different to theirs. Both are right.

Corbyn's politics aren't my politics. Many of his beliefs are the same as mine, but he's far more extreme in those beliefs. And his desire to achieve them means doing things to the economy that I don't believe in.

What I don't believe is the many promises he's made in an effort to buy votes. Its unaffordable, and I expect that the reality of it will be that if he gains office he'll renege on those promises and say that the mess the Tories left the country in means he can't afford to honour those promises. Alternatively, he'll borrow that much money the UK will be a hybrid of Greece and Venezuela.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Of course they're thinking objectively, but with a different 'pass mark' for them. Nowt wrong with that, that's politics. Your persuasion is different to theirs. Both are right.

Corbyn's politics aren't my politics. Many of his beliefs are the same as mine, but he's far more extreme in those beliefs. And his desire to achieve them means doing things to the economy that I don't believe in.

What I don't believe is the many promises he's made in an effort to buy votes. Its unaffordable, and I expect that the reality of it will be that if he gains office he'll renege on those promises and say that the mess the Tories left the country in means he can't afford to honour those promises. Alternatively, he'll borrow that much money the UK will be a hybrid of Greece and Venezuela.
		
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He will then be found to be a liar .. simples. But up until now he is an unknown commodity.

It does feel he is too far left, but we have right wing papers reporting this ..

There have been some headline shockers but how true are they?

But as I have stated, Brexit is the key and where you stand on that and what you want should determine your selection. All else is just speculation.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Show me the statement, itâ€™s all I ask please.
		
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https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...ions-pressure-labour-become-anti-brexit-party


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But as I have stated, Brexit is the key and where you stand on that and what you should determine your selection. All else is just speculation.
		
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Living where I do I dont have to vote tactically but voting to try and achieve leave or remain is potentially dangerous as whoever wins will get 5 years of power under the fixed term Parliament Act and that could do more damage in the short term


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...ions-pressure-labour-become-anti-brexit-party

Click to expand...

â€œIn those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for remain against either no Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.â€ ... qualifying statement, which doesnâ€™t mean he will remain because he has not negotiated a â€œdealâ€ yet and that deal will have to meet the criteria he has stated that the Tory deal doesnâ€™t meet.


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			â€œIn those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for remain against either no Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.â€ ... qualifying statement, which doesnâ€™t mean he will remain because he has not negotiated a â€œdealâ€ yet and that deal will have to meet the criteria he has stated that the Tory deal doesnâ€™t meet.
		
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Do you think that the EU will negotiate a decent leave deal with Corbyn if the alternative is that we will vote to stay?


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He will then be found to be a liar .. simples. But up until now he is an unknown commodity.

It does feel he is too far left, but we have right wing papers reporting this ..

There have been some headline shockers but how true are they?

But as I have stated, Brexit is the key and where you stand on that and what you want should determine your selection. All else is just speculation.
		
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An unknown quantity? He's been in politics all his working life. His record is well documented, even by him. We've never seen him as PM but its naive to say we don't know him or his politics.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Living where I do I dont have to vote tactically but voting to try and achieve leave or remain is potentially dangerous as whoever wins will get 5 years of power under the fixed term Parliament Act and that could do more damage in the short term
		
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Yeah I know Kent is a Tory strong hold. 
The fixed term parliament act can be circumvented . Also I donâ€™t believe 5 years will do the damage - thatcher did sustained damage as did the following Tory governments because they had no comprehension of economics and had sold off all the assets. 
Plus pedalled a load rubbish about high taxation from the Labour Party, who to be fair had Foot in but Kinnock and Smith were good options. 
So think your scaremongering, or of a nervous disposition.

So basically we have a load of Tory fan boys willing to vote a poor deal in ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			An unknown quantity? He's been in politics all his working life. His record is well documented, even by him. We've never seen him as PM but its naive to say we don't know him or his politics.
		
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Top jobs change people .. some step up, some flop


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...ions-pressure-labour-become-anti-brexit-party

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Thatâ€™s not what is in the body and youâ€™ve quoted a Far-Right Extreme American news service. You just lost all creditability there.
Did you not think of reading the article first.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Do you think that the EU will negotiate a decent leave deal with Corbyn if the alternative is that we will vote to stay?
		
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Dunno I reckon he will go for a Norway deal as he will get a big faction of leavers and some remainers meaning a majority- the key is selling it from a cost perspective.
If doesnâ€™t go this route, well letâ€™s say 6 months is over ambitious and the peopleâ€™s ambivalence increasing


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Do you think that the EU will negotiate a decent leave deal with Corbyn if the alternative is that we will vote to stay?
		
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Who knows mate, by all accounts they are yet to negotiate a decent deal and thatâ€™s after 3 years of tories trying.
Neither Party will get a deal without a clear winner, thatâ€™s for sure.


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yeah I know Kent is a Tory strong hold.
The fixed term parliament act can be circumvented . Also I donâ€™t believe 5 years will do the damage - thatcher did sustained damage as did the following Tory governments because they had no comprehension of economics and had sold off all the assets.
Plus pedalled a load rubbish about high taxation from the Labour Party, who to be fair had Foot in but Kinnock and Smith were good options.
So think your scaremongering, or of a nervous disposition.

So basically we have a load of Tory fan boys willing to vote a poor deal in ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Labour inherited high tax rates from the Tories, 33% and 75%, and then raised them further, 35% and 83%.

"Top jobs change some people." And you often say that Brexit is a step into the unknown but then are happy to go for Corbyn, who might change? Ironic?


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yeah I know Kent is a Tory strong hold. 
The fixed term parliament act can be circumvented . Also I donâ€™t believe 5 years will do the damage - thatcher did sustained damage as did the following Tory governments because they had no comprehension of economics and had sold off all the assets. 
Plus pedalled a load rubbish about high taxation from the Labour Party, who to be fair had Foot in but Kinnock and Smith were good options. 
So think your scaremongering, or of a nervous disposition.

So basically we have a load of Tory fan boys willing to vote a poor deal in ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is Harpo that your views on Tory governments, and Labour, are quite at odds with  my views, it just depends on how you see things and you're entitled to hold those views but I've been around a fair long time and my politics are based on what I've seen since starting to take an interest back in the early 60's. 

I can assure you I'm neither of a nervous disposition or scaremongering


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who knows mate, by all accounts they are yet to negotiate a decent deal and thatâ€™s after 3 years of tories trying.
Neither Party will get a deal without a clear winner, thatâ€™s for sure.
		
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Come on Paul, Corbyn goes to the EU and says we want a better deal than BJ's or we will have to stay, faced with his logic what would you do if you were Barnier?


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who knows mate, by all accounts they are yet to negotiate a decent deal and thatâ€™s after 3 years of tories trying.
Neither Party will get a deal without a clear winner, thatâ€™s for sure.
		
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So lets hope Boris gets an overall majority then


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Come on Paul, Corbyn goes to the EU and says we want a better deal than BJ's or we will have to stay, faced with his logic what would you do if you were Barnier?
		
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Again though Chris, I really donâ€™t like Corbyn, I donâ€™t trust any of them, but youâ€™re putting words in his mouth.
What if, just what if his Deal appeases more than any others have managed.
It certainly wonâ€™t make the extremes on both sides happy, but...........isnâ€™t that what weâ€™ve got now.
Him and boris need a majority that doesnâ€™t rely on others, right now I canâ€™t see either getting it and in all honesty, Iâ€™d be happy with Ronald McDonald getting a deal that gets us out.


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though Chris, I really donâ€™t like Corbyn, I donâ€™t trust any of them, but youâ€™re putting words in his mouth.
What if, just what if his Deal appeases more than any others have managed.
It certainly wonâ€™t make the extremes on both sides happy, but...........isnâ€™t that what weâ€™ve got now.
Him and boris need a majority that doesnâ€™t rely on others, right now I canâ€™t see either getting it and in all honesty, Iâ€™d be happy with Ronald McDonald getting a deal that gets us out.
		
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Corbyn has always talked of a Customs Union and a single market, neither of which are going to allow us to leave as we would be obliged to accept freedom of movement, The ECJ and all EU laws. I'm NOT extreme and I voted back in the 1970's to join the Common Market but NOT for federalism, an EU army, and a  EU Chancellor etc etc so I'd just be happy with a no deal Brexit


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Corbyn has always talked of a Customs Union and a single market, neither of which are going to allow us to leave as we would be obliged to accept freedom of movement, The ECJ and all EU laws. I'm NOT extreme and I voted back in the 1970's to join the Common Market but NOT for federalism, an EU army, and a  EU Chancellor etc etc so I'd just be happy with a no deal Brexit
		
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Mate, weâ€™ve had an EU Army in everything by name for years, we work closer with our European Allies than anybody else, that to me is a red herring, as for other worries, who knows.
Thatâ€™s like me saying the Country is in such a bad state after 9 years of tories we need a change as boris canâ€™t be believed to keep any of his promises.

Pretty sad state weâ€™re in mate, looks like itâ€™s a choice between a perceived lesser of 2 evils! I genuinely worry for my lad.


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, weâ€™ve had an EU Army in everything by name for years, we work closer with our European Allies than anybody else, that to me is a red herring, as for other worries, who knows.
Thatâ€™s like me saying the Country is in such a bad state after 9 years of tories we need a change as boris canâ€™t be believed to keep any of his promises.

Pretty sad state weâ€™re in mate, looks like itâ€™s a choice between a perceived lesser of 2 evils! I genuinely worry for my lad.
		
Click to expand...

To me there's a hell of a difference between an EU army and us working with other EU countries armies. Letting an EU Chancellor decide whether our budgets are ok etc etc. 

I've experienced good, bad and indifferent governments but currently we have the lowest interest rates, highest levels of employment etc and think it's not too bad compared to the 70' s and 90's when we had regular recessions 12% mortgages, less employment legislation etc. I dont personally have as much worry about Boris as I do Corbyn given his ties with terrorist organisations, anti semitism as well as the people who would hold top jobs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			To me there's a hell of a difference between an EU army and us working with other EU countries armies. Letting an EU Chancellor decide whether our budgets are ok etc etc.

I've experienced good, bad and indifferent governments but currently we have the lowest interest rates, highest levels of employment etc and think it's not too bad compared to the 70' s and 90's when we had regular recessions 12% mortgages, less employment legislation etc. I dont personally have as much worry about Boris as I do Corbyn given his ties with terrorist organisations, anti semitism as well as the people who would hold top jobs.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s were we disagree, as much as I have my fears over Corbyn, they are much worse over boris.
I too remember the mid 70â€™s onwards 80â€™s & 90â€™s and for so many ways we are better off we are also worse off, foodbanks, child poverty, cuts to emergency services, state of the NHS and a bigger gap between rich and poor than weâ€™ve ever had.
The last 10 years of tory rule hasnâ€™t been good and I donâ€™t see that changing.


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## chrisd (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were we disagree, as much as I have my fears over Corbyn, they are much worse over boris.
I too remember the mid 70â€™s onwards 80â€™s & 90â€™s and for so many ways we are better off we are also worse off, foodbanks, child poverty, cuts to emergency services, state of the NHS and a bigger gap between rich and poor than weâ€™ve ever had.
The last 10 years of tory rule hasnâ€™t been good and I donâ€™t see that changing.
		
Click to expand...

........ and that's why we vote! 
You vote for who you believe will give the best outcome to your wishes, and I mine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			........ and that's why we vote!
You vote for who you believe will give the best outcome to your wishes, and I mine.
		
Click to expand...

You too Chris and thanks for the decent conversation, nice change to some of what we see.


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were we disagree, as much as I have my fears over Corbyn, they are much worse over boris.
I too remember the mid 70â€™s onwards 80â€™s & 90â€™s and for so many ways we are better off we are also worse off, foodbanks, child poverty, cuts to emergency services, state of the NHS and a bigger gap between rich and poor than weâ€™ve ever had.
The last 10 years of tory rule hasnâ€™t been good and I donâ€™t see that changing.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree that change is desperately needed. But to what?

One things for sure, Austerity has to not only stop, it has to be reversed. There was a report come out Sept time, and a number of articles followed. The mortality rate in the UK trends alongside Austerity. And that trend shows 120,000 premature deaths. Austerity has killed 120,000 people, and on whose watch?

Maybe the UK needs a free spending Labour govt...? Economically dangerous but socially imperative.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Labour inherited high tax rates from the Tories, 33% and 75%, and then raised them further, 35% and 83%.

"Top jobs change some people." And you often say that Brexit is a step into the unknown but then are happy to go for Corbyn, who might change? Ironic?
		
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Corbyn isnâ€™t as scary as a hard brexit in the grand scheme of things. 
What I know is Boris is not good nor is his style of politics or the people he attracts.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely agree that change is desperately needed. But to what?

One things for sure, Austerity has to not only stop, it has to be reversed. There was a report come out Sept time, and a number of articles followed. The mortality rate in the UK trends alongside Austerity. And that trend shows 120,000 premature deaths. Austerity has killed 120,000 people, and on whose watch?

Maybe the UK needs a free spending Labour govt...? Economically dangerous but socially imperative.
		
Click to expand...

I believe Chrisâ€™s last post, #592 summed it well.
Thereâ€™s no doubt Corbyn is a good speaker and believes what he says, itâ€™s the rest of us that need convincing.


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Corbyn isnâ€™t as scary as a hard brexit in the grand scheme of things.
What I know is Boris is not good nor is his style of politics or the people he attracts.
		
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youâ€™re missing the point Iâ€™m trying to make. He isnâ€™t as scary to you. Others think differently. Youâ€˜re right for you, and you are wrong in someone elseâ€™s eyes.

And a change of govt isnâ€™t just about Brexit. The â€œoh, letâ€™s have Corbyn because of his Brexit policyâ€ ignores all the rest of the things HIS Labour govt will do. That is short sighted.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2019)

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-between-generations-in-britain-a3930341.html

Massive difference between UK young and old in voting intentions.


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Corbyn isnâ€™t as scary as a hard brexit in the grand scheme of things.
What I know is Boris is not good nor is his style of politics or the people he attracts.
		
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Hobbit said:



			youâ€™re missing the point Iâ€™m trying to make. He isnâ€™t as scary to you. Others think differently. Youâ€˜re right for you, and you are wrong in someone elseâ€™s eyes.

And a change of govt isnâ€™t just about Brexit. The â€œoh, letâ€™s have Corbyn because of his Brexit policyâ€ ignores all the rest of the things HIS Labour govt will do. That is short sighted.
		
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Just to add;

"In February this year Labour released figures showing that the party received 673 accusations of anti-Semitism by Labour members between April 2018 and January 2019." 

Those figures were released by Labour, not lies from the rightwing press. And Labour is currently under investigation by the Met Police and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

If you'd have asked a German, in the 1920's, if 6 million jews would be killed by Germany they would have laughed in your face.

Brexit and the economy aside, do you want a party that is institutionally antisemitic?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just to add;

"In February this year Labour released figures showing that the party received 673 accusations of anti-Semitism by Labour members between April 2018 and January 2019."

Those figures were released by Labour, not lies from the rightwing press. And Labour is currently under investigation by the Met Police and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

If you'd have asked a German, in the 1920's, if 6 million jews would be killed by Germany they would have laughed in your face.

Brexit and the economy aside, do you want a party that is institutionally antisemitic?
		
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I understand your point, and the anti Semitic stuff is worrying. But letâ€™s put it this way is it acceptable to be is islamphobic ? 
Neither is acceptable, but no one here has raised that topic - nor has any one mentioned the overt sexism rife in the Tory party ... 
what we have on here is some very right wing skewed views which are propagated by the right wing press. 
I have just stated and you have agreed previously that Brexit will determine the policy because it will determine the budget. 
What is worrying is your all thinking about what is in the room before you have gone through the door .. And your willing to believe a liar


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2019)

Latest Scottish YouGov poll

SNP 42% +5%
Tories 22% -5%
Labour 12%

SNP have an 8 point lead on the combined Tory/Lab vote.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s not what is in the body and youâ€™ve quoted a Far-Right Extreme American news service. You just lost all creditability there.
Did you not think of reading the article first. 

Click to expand...

You really do come over as immature and childish when someone disagrees with you, Ill try not to get sucked into it though. 
This source should be more down your street:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...labour-would-back-remain-in-brexit-referendum


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

Wouldn't it be great if people voted on what a party could offer in the future.  And not based on what happened sometimes 4 decades ago. As the parties, world economy and society in general has changed massively since then. So to me I'm more interested in how a party operates in the reality of what's happening now and the challenges society now faces, not what happened when everyone drove Austin Allegros or Wham topped the charts.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-between-generations-in-britain-a3930341.html

Massive difference between UK young and old in voting intentions.
		
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According to that I should have switched to voting Tory 4 years ago. Still waiting.......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			According to that I should have switched to voting Tory 4 years ago. Still waiting.......
		
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...and when I sit in church this morning 80% of the congregation will be Tory voters.  ðŸ¤”


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

Basil Fawlty has weighed in. Ball's in your court Manuel


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192999560148344832


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and when I sit in church this morning 80% of the congregation will be Tory voters.  ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Probably more old school Tory not the Tory we see now, silver spooned wide boys with a â€œme,me firstâ€ attitude and a lack of morals.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really do come over as immature and childish when someone disagrees with you, Ill try not to get sucked into it though.
This source should be more down your street:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...labour-would-back-remain-in-brexit-referendum

Click to expand...

Again, Read the Article and stop just looking at the headline, the body clearly states he said that if a Conservative Government called a Referendum back in July when the article was written.
Youâ€™re calling me childish then producing links which make you look foolish or just accept Corbyn has never ever stated what you claimed!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

General Sir Nick Carter this morning on the Andrew Marr show when asked about an EU says heâ€™s never seen any proposals or policy documents on the subject.
This is the Senior British Soldier and he should know


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Wouldn't it be great if people voted on what a party could offer in the future.  And not based on what happened sometimes 4 decades ago. As the parties, world economy and society in general has changed massively since then. So to me I'm more interested in how a party operates in the reality of what's happening now and the challenges society now faces, not what happened when everyone drove Austin Allegros or Wham topped the charts.
		
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Bang on. I worry what international partners/investors would think of a country run by Labour, A country which would decimate the 'City' and leave it open to Paris, Franfurt etc. One that could decide to 'nationalise' at a blink of an eye. Where wealth creation is a dirty theme, according to the 'rich' Labour elite and heads of the main Unions!. 'Defence' partnerships and security collaboration with people considered, by their own country, as a security risk. etc, etc.

Good luck with your future as a 'middle-class citizen. The poor will get state aid (good), the wealthy will get highly paid expertise to 'offshore' their wealth and those employed and saving will pay the bill!!


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Basil Fawlty has weighed in. Ball's in your court Manuel


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192999560148344832

Click to expand...

Its claimed it might include references to UK's overseas agents that would be unwise if made 'public'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its claimed it might include references to UK's overseas agents that would be unwise if made 'public'.
		
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Who is making these claims.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Bang on. I worry what international partners/investors would think of a country run by Labour, A country which would decimate the 'City' and leave it open to Paris, Franfurt etc. One that could decide to 'nationalise' at a blink of an eye. Where wealth creation is a dirty theme, according to the 'rich' Labour elite and heads of the main Unions!. 'Defence' partnerships and security collaboration with people considered, by their own country, as a security risk. etc, etc.

Good luck with your future as a 'middle-class citizen. The poor will get state aid (good), the wealthy will get highly paid expertise to 'offshore' their wealth and those employed and saving will pay the bill!!
		
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For enough. One could argue that Brexit will do more damage to the City's standing as a hub of European finance.  Also there is not much left to privatise as most of it has already been done so the vast majority of our vital services and infrastructure are under foreign ownership now with any profits being distributed to employees and shareholders of these companies. And I'm not overly convinced how much society and the users of these utilities and services benefits from a lot of privatisation as the business model seems to be to get people on board with offers then squeeze the pips out of them and do the the least possible under the terms of your contract. As profit rather than delivery of a quality service becomes the over riding concern.  Note wrong with making profits as no one works for free, but questions should be asked about where this profit ends up.  So the threat of nationalization is not a bad thing in my book.

And whilst I am pretty confident Corbyn won't be offering the Secretary of State for Defense to a member of ISIS if he gets to be PM, talking to unsavory characters in the past it is not a good look.  But then again neither is strong links to Russian funding in the current political climate where Russian interference in elections has been proven.  But at least we are both looking forwards, although possibly concentrating a tad on the faults of other parties to deflect from the lack of hope from the ones we would vote for


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 10, 2019)

It does seem like we are being asked to vote for the least worst party as opposed to the better party


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			For enough. One could argue that Brexit will do more damage to the City's standing as a hub of European finance.  Also there is not much left to privatise as most of it has already been done so the vast majority of our vital services and infrastructure are under foreign ownership now with any profits being distributed to employees and shareholders of these companies. And I'm not overly convinced how much society and the users of these utilities and services benefits from a lot of privatisation as the business model seems to be to get people on board with offers then squeeze the pips out of them and do the the least possible under the terms of your contract. As profit rather than delivery of a quality service becomes the over riding concern.  Note wrong with making profits as no one works for free, but questions should be asked about where this profit ends up.  So the threat of nationalization is not a bad thing in my book.

And whilst I am pretty confident Corbyn won't be offering the Secretary of State for Defense to a member of ISIS if he gets to be PM, talking to unsavory characters in the past it is not a good look.  But then again neither is strong links to Russian funding in the current political climate where Russian interference in elections has been proven.  But at least we are both looking forwards, although possibly concentrating a tad on the faults of other parties to deflect from the lack of hope from the ones we would vote for 

Click to expand...

Absolutely bang on !
A brexit will impact the banking situation .. we already are seeing a migration to Luxembourg 
As for privatisation, well that really hasn't been that successful for the consumer and the initial profit gain from the shares has been and gone. So a compulsory purchase back would not be a bad thing ... and I suppose the Tories could sell it again  .
I really worry that Boris will sell the NHS, the American system is not something I want. 

Basically DrDel is using a typical tory tactic of project fear and making up scenarios to try and make it sound worse than our current offerings from the liar Boris.

But if Corbyn is too far then the Lib Dems are somewhere in the middle and probably more toward traditional Tory values... a government made up of Lib Labour may actually be the best option for the centrist.


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Absolutely bang on !
A brexit will impact the banking situation .. we already are seeing a migration to Luxembourg
As for privatisation, well that really hasn't been that successful for the consumer and the initial profit gain from the shares has been and gone. So a compulsory purchase back would not be a bad thing ... and I suppose the Tories could sell it again  .
I really worry that Boris will sell the NHS, the American system is not something I want.

Basically DrDel is *using a typical tory tactic of projec*t fear and making up scenarios to try and make it sound worse than our current offerings from the liar Boris.

But if Corbyn is too far then the Lib Dems are somewhere in the middle and probably more toward traditional Tory values... a government made up of Lib Labour may actually be the best option for the centrist.
		
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Whoops, you are a bit quick off the mark in your deduction and wrong- as an ex-economist I'm more a 'floater', not a Tory !! As Fragger said above its seems a just a choice of least worse option


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Whoops, you are a bit quick off the mark in your deduction and wrong- as an ex-economist I'm more a 'floater', not a Tory !! As Fragger said above its seems a just a choice of least worse option
		
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I would not call you a "floater " that is something else and used as an insult .
Your posts are very Tory biased, but we could put that down to the media and you do come across as closed on Corbyn.
Where do you stand on Swinson and are you in area where there is a large majority ?


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I would not call you a "floater " that is something else and used as an insult .
Your posts are very Tory biased, but we could put that down to the media and you do come across as closed on Corbyn.
Where do you stand on Swinson and are you in area where there is a large majority ?
		
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My personal domestic voting opinions are just that, personal. Perhaps my post's reflect that at this moment in time my views are influenced by the issue of Brexit and my views of the EU and the UK's future.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193450658193641472

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192467215716638726
You do wonder about the tactic by the parties to send some junior minister on so the real leaders avoid any decent scrutiny. As it inevitably never ends well.  Always reminds me of this from The Thick of It.





  Warning, will inevitably contain swearing as it is The Thick of It.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			My personal domestic voting opinions are just that, personal. Perhaps my post's reflect that at this moment in time my views are influenced by the issue of Brexit and my views of the EU and the UK's future.
		
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Which means your falling into the position I have stated ... the Brexit situation needs to be cleared up .. either way.
Posting about the outcome situation is pointless as is discussing what will occur if so and so get's into power until Brexit is cleared.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 10, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It does seem like we are being asked to vote for the least worst party as opposed to the better party
		
Click to expand...


At the end of the day which way you vote only really has any impact in 30-50 seats... Depending on which 'expert' you wish to believe...


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*Which means your falling into the position I have stated ...* the Brexit situation needs to be cleared up .. either way.
Posting about the outcome situation is pointless as is discussing what will occur if so and so get's into power until Brexit is cleared.
		
Click to expand...

OK have it your way, you obviously know me better than I know myself. I don't really understand why you get so strident with people who have a different view to yourself. Its just a golf forum which has a range of views which are largely debated in an amusing and polite way. I've responded to your post 3 times in short succession: there won't be  a fourth which will give you the last word which you seem to crave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably more old school Tory not the Tory we see now, silver spooned wide boys with a â€œme,me firstâ€ attitude and a lack of morals.
		
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 Aye - thatâ€™s true - there are maybe a handful of Brexit Party types but Iâ€™m guessing, as I know most of us well, that most who do vote Tory will be of the Truthfully Caring Conservative camp.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its claimed it might include references to UK's overseas agents that would be unwise if made 'public'.
		
Click to expand...

If that were the case why would the security/intelligence services and the gov committee who commissioned the report have OKâ€™d it for release?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Absolutely bang on !
A brexit will impact the banking situation .. we already are seeing a migration to Luxembourg
As for privatisation, well that really hasn't been that successful for the consumer and the initial profit gain from the shares has been and gone. So a compulsory purchase back would not be a bad thing ... and I suppose the Tories could sell it again  .
I really worry that Boris will sell the NHS, the American system is not something I want.

Basically DrDel is using a typical tory tactic of project fear and making up scenarios to try and make it sound worse than our current offerings from the liar Boris.

But if Corbyn is too far then the Lib Dems are somewhere in the middle and probably more toward traditional Tory values... a government made up of Lib Labour may actually be the best option for the centrist.
		
Click to expand...

...and on the NHS - Iâ€™m not sure most of the electorate are aware of the cost of Private Health insurance - especially to cover an existing condition.  When I took my career break my work medical insurance was paused - and so was my wifeâ€™s - as my spouse on the company policy we paid Â£60/month for her.  We looked at taking our own insurance just for her with the same cover.  They agreed to take her on and to cover her existing condition (in remission with breast cancer).  How much were we quoted? Â£520/month.  Thatâ€™s potentially what privatisation of the health service might mean in creation of a two-tier service.  From my conversations with US-resident friends - it certainly does in the States.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193450658193641472

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192467215716638726
You do wonder about the tactic by the parties to send some junior minister on so the real leaders avoid any decent scrutiny. As it inevitably never ends well.  Always reminds me of this from The Thick of It.





  Warning, will inevitably contain swearing as it is The Thick of It.
		
Click to expand...

I watched the paperâ€™s review on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and they discussed the headlines about Labours spending and the journalists themselves agreed that Labourâ€™s current proposed spending was about half what the headline suggested and the tories had added things in that was a lie, ie, all Private Schools to be close immediately.

Then we get the Labour spokesman saying after next weekend their manifesto will be published with full costings and the tory saying itâ€™s a disgrace and refusing to put a single penny on theirs.

Iâ€™m not saying either is in the right, but it just highlighted to me the amount of mis-information on both sides and it is doing nothing to actually help the Nation.

I totally disagree with the cliche,  â€œyou get what you vote forâ€ we donâ€™t, because none of them can be trusted!


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2019)

I think what I've seen over the many years I've watched politics is the total, and open, disregard for the truth. The lack of knowledge some politicians have on their subject and the lack of professionalism is astounding. We also have a pretty much 100% biased media peddling news from their own standpoint only, also with little regard for the truth.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I think what I've seen over the many years I've watched politics is the total, and open, disregard for the truth. The lack of knowledge some politicians have on their subject and the lack of professionalism is astounding. *We also have a pretty much 100% biased media* peddling news from their own standpoint only, also with little regard for the truth.
		
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I'd argue that is true in the print media.  But for TV and radio luckily we have not followed the US model and our TV and radio are relatively politically neutral, and indeed some TV/Radio journalists are very good at holding them to account. It's just that unfortunate that both parties like to peddle a narrative that they are very biased if they do not slavishly repeat whatever propaganda they come up with. Nowhere near as bad as what Trump does, but there for the grace of god.


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I understand your point, and the anti Semitic stuff is worrying. But letâ€™s put it this way is it acceptable to be is islamphobic ?
Neither is acceptable, but no one here has raised that topic - nor has any one mentioned the overt sexism rife in the Tory party ...
what we have on here is some very right wing skewed views which are propagated by the right wing press.
I have just stated and you have agreed previously that Brexit will determine the policy because it will determine the budget.
*What is worrying is your all thinking about what is in the room before you have gone through the door .. And your willing to believe a liar*

Click to expand...

The highlighted bit;

You have often commented on what Brexit will bring about, i.e. worrying about what is in the room before you have gone through the door. Ironic, again? You seem ok to dismiss Labour's antisemitism with a its worrying, and its Labour who released those figures. 

As for willing to believe a liar... where on earth do you get that from? Who is it you think I believe?


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and when I sit in church this morning 80% of the congregation will be Tory voters.  ðŸ¤”
		
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And or are you suggesting that a higher % of Tories are religious than any other party?


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And or are you suggesting that a higher % of Tories are religious than any other party?
		
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God forbid ðŸ¤«

(Other deities do (not) exist)


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The highlighted bit;

You have often commented on what Brexit will bring about, i.e. worrying about what is in the room before you have gone through the door. Ironic, again? You seem ok to dismiss Labour's antisemitism with a its worrying, and its Labour who released those figures.

As for willing to believe a liar... where on earth do you get that from? Who is it you think I believe?
		
Click to expand...

I find Boris and most of his cabinet indefensible.. so there you have it. 
Justify his position and quote him as the new messiah then we need a reality check. 
I have a rough idea where you stand and I appreciate for you Corbyn is too far left. But the point was your overlooking the poor behaviours of the others, like the press.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And or are you suggesting that a higher % of Tories are religious than any other party?
		
Click to expand...

Erm - No...I think it easy enough to see that I was drawing a (not too serious) conclusion about the voting intentions of my church's congregation from the Yougov survey Age Group voting intention.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I find Boris and most of his cabinet indefensible.. so there you have it.
Justify his position and quote him as the new messiah then we need a reality check.
I have a rough idea where you stand and I appreciate for you Corbyn is too far left. But the point was your overlooking the poor behaviours of the others, like the press.
		
Click to expand...

Once upon a time there was Mandy willing to call out Brian's mistaken identity...

_"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"_


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I find Boris and most of his cabinet indefensible.. so there you have it.
Justify his position and quote him as the new messiah then we need a reality check.
I have a rough idea where you stand and I appreciate for you Corbyn is too far left. But the point was your overlooking the poor behaviours of the others, like the press.
		
Click to expand...

Where on earth are you coming from? "Justify his position..." If you're referring to Boris, that's just laughable in the extreme. If you care to look back you will see I think Boris is a Trump-lite. Probably the second worst politician in the western world. You will also see that I would prefer to vote Labour but have said hell will freeze over before I would vote for them whilst Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum lead Labour.

Its not just a case of not wanting Corbyn. He's the head of the snake. To a certain extent I think McDonnell is worse. And whilst Momentum are there to perpetuate far left extremism and antisemitism, they're not for me. Stormtroopers springs to mind. An organisation that admits they've had 673 instances of antisemitism in less than a year, and you want to vote for them... Mmm, maybe I've got a rough idea where you stand - turning a blind eye to antisemitism.

I'm not overlooking the behaviour of others. Where do you get that from? "You have a rough idea where I stand..." To be honest, I don't think you have much clue where I stand. You're making a lot of assumptions which, quite frankly, are 2+2=27.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2019)

Does anyone else wonder how the Tories can 'expertly' cost Labour's spending but, when challenged, do not seem to have a clue what their own spending will cost.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Where on earth are you coming from? "Justify his position..." If you're referring to Boris, that's just laughable in the extreme. If you care to look back you will see I think Boris is a Trump-lite. Probably the second worst politician in the western world. You will also see that I would prefer to vote Labour but have said hell will freeze over before I would vote for them whilst Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum lead Labour.

Its not just a case of not wanting Corbyn. He's the head of the snake. To a certain extent I think McDonnell is worse. And whilst Momentum are there to perpetuate far left extremism and antisemitism, they're not for me. Stormtroopers springs to mind. An organisation that admits they've had 673 instances of antisemitism in less than a year, and you want to vote for them... Mmm, maybe I've got a rough idea where you stand - turning a blind eye to antisemitism.

I'm not overlooking the behaviour of others. Where do you get that from? "You have a rough idea where I stand..." To be honest, I don't think you have much clue where I stand. You're making a lot of assumptions which, quite frankly, are 2+2=27.
		
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Havenâ€™t seen you mention islamaphobia or the sexism .. you have said a lot a about Corbyn, McDonnell et al .. you cannot sit on the fence and continue to point out the failings of one side. 

Incidentally I have already indicated who I would vote for and it wasnâ€™t Corbyn. 

The point I was making in my posts and I will rephrase it .. there is a lot of Tory fan boys trotting out right wing propaganda- and it should be contested.

If you disagree with that, itâ€™s okay but step out of it or accept the other view point.

By the way 2+2 =4, donâ€™t bring maths into a debate it usually gives a definitive answer ðŸ‘ðŸ™‚


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Havenâ€™t seen you mention islamaphobia or the sexism .. you have said a lot a about Corbyn, McDonnell et al .. you cannot sit on the fence and continue to point out the failings of one side.

Incidentally I have already indicated who I would vote for and it wasnâ€™t Corbyn.

The point I was making in my posts and I will rephrase it .. there is a lot of Tory fan boys trotting out right wing propaganda- and it should be contested.

If you disagree with that, itâ€™s okay but step out of it or accept the other view point.

By the way 2+2 =4, donâ€™t bring maths into a debate it usually gives a definitive answer ðŸ‘ðŸ™‚
		
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Crikey! If we're going to mention every instance we'd vote for no one. I am very aware of the Islamaphobia and sexism which, along with the antisemitism, shouldn't happen. For me, if we're talking about who should get the vote, its about scale too. 673 instances of antisemitism reported by Labour. Labour's own figures, not the right wing press you fear.

I absolutely accept the other point of view, and this is where it gets a little confusing. You don't seem to accept the brickbats thrown at Labour, and that's what I was trying to highlight. Maybe we've both misunderstood each other a little.

I highlighted Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum because they are too extreme for me. And if you want a little balance in that respect, I'm no fan of the 1922 Committee either.

As for my own voting record in the last 43 years of voting; 70% Labour, 20% LibDems, 10% Tory. I'm no Tory fanboy but I'd vote for them ahead of the current Labour offering - I genuinely fear, and I mean fear, Momentum controlling the Labour Party. Where next, concentration camps by another name?


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## larmen (Nov 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone else wonder how the Tories can 'expertly' cost Labour's spending but, when challenged, do not seem to have a clue what their own spending will cost.
		
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There is a meme out there (yes, memes are made up) where the Labour minimum wage proposal of GBP 10 gets called unaffordable by some newspeaper which celebrates the Tory proposal of GBP 10.50 as a brilliant idea. I think they were express front pages which someone collated together.


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## Imurg (Nov 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone else wonder how the Tories can 'expertly' cost Labour's spending but, when challenged, do not seem to have a clue what their own spending will cost.
		
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This isn't news
It happens every single time there is an election.


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2019)

Just out of interest,  did anyone see where Jeremy Corbyn was sitting at the Festival of Remembrance last night ?


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just out of interest,  did anyone see where Jeremy Corbyn was sitting at the Festival of Remembrance last night ?
		
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Rumour has it he was in the Gaza Strip Club...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 10, 2019)

I thought I read some where he was at the Berlin wall for some event


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Rumour has it he was in the Gaza Strip Club...

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Yes he turned up in the Gazzer strip. Newcastle shirt, Spurs shorts and Everton socks.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Crikey! If we're going to mention every instance we'd vote for no one. I am very aware of the Islamaphobia and sexism which, along with the antisemitism, shouldn't happen. For me, if we're talking about who should get the vote, its about scale too. 673 instances of antisemitism reported by Labour. Labour's own figures, not the right wing press you fear.

I absolutely accept the other point of view, and this is where it gets a little confusing. You don't seem to accept the brickbats thrown at Labour, and that's what I was trying to highlight. Maybe we've both misunderstood each other a little.

I highlighted Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum because they are too extreme for me. And if you want a little balance in that respect, I'm no fan of the 1922 Committee either.

As for my own voting record in the last 43 years of voting; 70% Labour, 20% LibDems, 10% Tory. I'm no Tory fanboy but I'd vote for them ahead of the current Labour offering - I genuinely fear, and I mean fear, Momentum controlling the Labour Party. Where next, concentration camps by another name?
		
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I do accept the brick bats but I am not a fan of one way traffic.
May be I was misunderstood when I said it is worrying, I was acknowledging it. However the point was if we mention this poor behaviour, the others are not so clean. So if people choose not to vote for Corbyn on this basis would they not be hypocrites to vote for Boris ?? 

My voting history has always been labour. So by not voting for Corbyn I have made a decision based on the facts that are important to me. 

With respect to the great unknown, well for me Brexit is, and we were told a finite decision as in we would leave and we would not be revisiting that choice for a long period of time. 
An election is maximum 5 years. The amount of damage depends on the numbers in the house that agree .. if it doesnâ€™t get Philibusted (?). Hence this gamble is pretty limited and not on the scale of Brexit, from my viewpoint. Look at how successful the government has been in conducting its manifesto in the last 4 years as a case in point.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes he turned up in the Gazzer strip. Newcastle shirt, Spurs shorts and Everton socks.
		
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Hilarious, you found his statement yet? Or are you going to admit you got it wrong?


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just out of interest,  did anyone see where Jeremy Corbyn was sitting at the Festival of Remembrance last night ?
		
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Maybe he spent it with some loyal, dedicated war heroes 

from the IRA ðŸ˜£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Maybe he spent it with some loyal, dedicated war heroes

from the IRA ðŸ˜£
		
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Donâ€™t know why he wasnâ€™t there, spent the day in Doncaster visiting flood victims and Emergency Crews.
Only 170 miles away so itâ€™ll be interesting to see if anything comes out in the next few days.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hilarious, you found his statement yet? Or are you going to admit you got it wrong?
		
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Stop being such a big Wazzock.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop being such a big Wazzock.
		
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No problem, Iâ€™ll take that as a No and accept you lied.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No problem, Iâ€™ll take that as a No and accept you lied.

Click to expand...

Lied?   What are you on and is it necessary to provoke this kind of annimosity on the forum.  I see a pattern here where anyone posts something you disagree with you start getting personal, its rather juvenile and ugly.  You said you were not posting here anymore as you were fed up with the idiots on the thread yet you continue to provoke arguements.  Give it up man.


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## toyboy54 (Nov 10, 2019)

My apologies for somehow managing to delete my highlighting the relevant chapters in the book I thought may give a new perspective as to what Brexit and Independence for Scotland could bring about.Not only to the U.K. but also help to accelerate(with help from Putin and the rebirth of ISIS and AlQeaida-through not only a flood of fresh 'refugees from Africa and the organisation of many of the so-called political refugees already spread throughout Europe) but also help to bring about a nationalistic re-alignment of the European Union leading to essentially its virtual end with economies in various countries collapsing resulting in massive civil unrest!
As for Mrs.Krankies 'new,bold Euro Friendly Scotland' then read how it becomes the people/arms/drug/fake money smuggling capital of the unregulated G.B.
O.K.,it takes some some lateral thinking but ask yourself 'IS THIS REALLY UNFEASIBLE?'
And on that depressing note I'll retire to my bunker along with the meds for my head and maybe pop out nearer Xmas and sussif a new limited playing membership is still available at the club(which is going to be all that's allowed according to the docs)
Must take the pills...just noted that I've forgotten to say that's it's 2 chapters near the end.(Sorry this has turned into a book)
Jimbo


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes it is. He wants to negotiate a new deal, put it to a referendum and then vote against his own deal what ever it is. What Twazzocks would contemplate that, *you couldn't make it up.*

Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Lied?   What are you on and is it necessary to provoke this kind of annimosity on the forum.  I see a pattern here where anyone posts something you disagree with you start getting personal, its rather juvenile and ugly.  You said you were not posting here anymore as you were fed up with the idiots on the thread yet you continue to provoke arguements.  Give it up man.
		
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Re the bit in bold. I guess you did. 
Maybe you could change your name to SocketJohnson or BorisRocket

Edit: Can I just remind you, I politely asked you to provide the evidence in my first response, it wasnâ€™t me who got personal or started name calling.ðŸ‘ðŸ»
Iâ€™ll leave it there.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold. I guess you did. 
Maybe you could change your name to SocketJohnson or BorisRocket

Edit: Can I just remind you, I politely asked you to provide the evidence in my first response, it wasnâ€™t me who got personal or started name calling.ðŸ‘ðŸ»
Iâ€™ll leave it there.
		
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You are acting like a child and seem unable to stop it. I wont continue to reply as its a waste of time and seems to feed your spitefull immature agenda. Please post the last word now as I will not play your silly game anymore.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*You are acting like a child* and seem unable to stop it. I wont continue to reply as its a waste of time and seems to feed your spitefull immature agenda. Please post the last word now as I will not play your silly game anymore.
		
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No, Iâ€™m asking you to man up, but as you continue to get personal and are on the back foot, Iâ€™ll accept taking the last word as the end of it.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 10, 2019)

One bit of good news tonight, Vaz isn't standing.


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## chrisd (Nov 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold. I guess you did. 
Maybe you could change your name to SocketJohnson or BorisRocket

Edit: Can I just remind you, I politely asked you to provide the evidence in my first response, it wasnâ€™t me who got personal or started name calling.ðŸ‘ðŸ»
Iâ€™ll leave it there.
		
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To be fair Paul what Socket has posted is mostly accurate, the only bit that he's added is the he'll vote against it but, and it's a big BUT, that is generally accepted as the plan he has hashed. Funny given that JC is a clear leaver but its also obvious that the EU aren't going to give him a decent leave deal knowing that JC's referendum is "accept the deal" or "remain"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Paul what Socket has posted is mostly accurate, the only bit that he's added is the he'll vote against it but, and it's a big BUT, that is generally accepted as the plan he has hashed. Funny given that JC is a clear leaver but its also obvious that the EU aren't going to give him a decent leave deal knowing that JC's referendum is "accept the deal" or "remain"
		
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Chris, this is the 2nd time on this question and I fully respect what youâ€™re saying, but let me explain, Iâ€™m in a decent position in that my local Labour MP, Graeme Morris voted for Borisâ€™s deal against the whip, I want out and canâ€™t stand Corbyn, so happy to vote on local issues with the worry Corbyn could be PM, the more I see with Corbyn (Last night being another negative) the more Iâ€™m shifting to spoiling my ballot paper.
Now, if you can be bothered, when SR posted I respond twice respectfully and asked him to provide the link were Corbyn â€œstatedâ€ he would vote against his own deal, such a statement, would for me, be the final turning point, at the moment itâ€™s no more than what we conceive could happen.
He could of easily posted he chose his words wrong or whatever, instead he got personal, so in response I called him out.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Chris, this is the 2nd time on this question and I fully respect what youâ€™re saying, but let me explain, Iâ€™m in a decent position in that my local Labour MP, Graeme Morris voted for Borisâ€™s deal against the whip, I want out and canâ€™t stand Corbyn, so happy to vote on local issues with the worry Corbyn could be PM, the more I see with Corbyn (Last night being another negative) the more Iâ€™m shifting to spoiling my ballot paper.
Now, if you can be bothered, when SR posted I respond twice respectfully and asked him to provide the link were Corbyn â€œstatedâ€ he would vote against his own deal, such a statement, would for me, be the final turning point, at the moment itâ€™s no more than what we conceive could happen.
He could of easily posted he chose his words wrong or whatever, instead he got personal, so in response I called him out.
		
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I'm  not defending SR specifically Paul, or criticising your decision  to ask for proof, but merely saying that JC is playing fast and loose with Brexit. In saying that he will renegotiate a better deal than Boris has, he is peeing in the wind, as any better deal is one that the EU will insist is going to keep us more closely tied than the current one and therefore imo we'd be better off staying in, but of course that doesnt deliver on the 2016 referendum. Corbyn isn't going to state that he will vote against his own deal publicly but I've seen several interviews where Labour MP,s have been asked the question and their response  has been "we'll have to wait and see what deal he gets" . It's all just a fudge to having to state his real Brexit position during the general election.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

larmen said:



			There is a meme out there (yes, memes are made up) where the Labour minimum wage proposal of GBP 10 gets called unaffordable by some newspeaper which celebrates the Tory proposal of GBP 10.50 as a brilliant idea. I think they were express front pages which someone collated together.
		
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I believe the Tory cost is Â£10.50 in the 4th year.........â€¦.they will be dancing in the streets of Raith with that one.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm  not defending SR specifically Paul, or criticising your decision  to ask for proof, but merely saying that JC is playing fast and loose with Brexit. In saying that he will renegotiate a better deal than Boris has, he is peeing in the wind, as any better deal is one that the EU will insist is going to keep us more closely tied than the current one and therefore imo we'd be better off staying in, but of course that doesnt deliver on the 2016 referendum. Corbyn isn't going to state that he will vote against his own deal publicly but I've seen several interviews where Labour MP,s have been asked the question and their response  has been "we'll have to wait and see what deal he gets" . It's all just a fudge to having to state his real Brexit position during the general election.
		
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I think that the definition of a "better" deal is subjective. What might be "better" for one person could be the very worst outcome for the next person. And in that respect, using the term "better deal" is just spin.

Would JC vote against his deal, and to Remain? I don't think he will. Its been reported numerous times that he has been at odds with many of his shadow cabinet. He's a Leaver. He wouldn't vote for Boris' deal as voting for anything Tory is just something he wouldn't do but I do think he'll vote for his own deal. Maybe he'll hope the Tory Brexiteers will support that deal... who knows.

A fudge, not wanting to clearly state his Brexit position. He's sitting on the fence in the hope Labour will hoover up more of the floating voters.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm  not defending SR specifically Paul, or criticising your decision  to ask for proof, but merely saying that JC is playing fast and loose with Brexit. In saying that he will renegotiate a better deal than Boris has, he is peeing in the wind, as any better deal is one that the EU will insist is going to keep us more closely tied than the current one and therefore imo we'd be better off staying in, but of course that doesnt deliver on the 2016 referendum. Corbyn isn't going to state that he will vote against his own deal publicly but I've seen several interviews where Labour MP,s have been asked the question and their response  has been "we'll have to wait and see what deal he gets" . It's all just a fudge to having to state his real Brexit position during the general election.
		
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Initially, as the Referendum wasnâ€™t fought along Party Lines, I had no real interest in his position, I thought the Leave vote would go through quite easily, but once it became politicised it became a mess, as TM, as was her right, negotiated alone (Party wise) I again ignored Corbyn as I would expect to see any opposition make it awkward and hold a Government to account.
The fuss about remain/Lab/SNP etc was all hot air for me as TM had a majority, it was only once the resignations started I started to fear the â€œDealâ€ was not going to be done, then we had the debacle of TMâ€™s 3 votes etc and Labour flip flopping on a way forward until we sort of have a policy (I think).

Lotâ€™s of politicians speak before engaging the brain so again, intent v actual is confused.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

^^^^ Emily Thornberry stated she would vote to LEAVE today while being interviewed. However once she was challenged she quickly corrected herself. Its amusing to see that not only have they confused the electorate they're beginning to confuse each other


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^^ Emily Thornberry stated she would vote to LEAVE today while being interviewed. However once she was challenged she quickly corrected herself. Its amusing to see that not only have they confused the electorate they're beginning to confuse each other 

Click to expand...

She said that weeks ago as well. Totally cluelessðŸ¤¡


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 11, 2019)

At a family bonfire on Saturday night there were two students who were going to vote for the first time this election. I couldn't resist. Yup they were Labour..saying all the right things, You know, looking after the people, health blah blah. So I pointed out a few things about Jezza, that they didn't know, then chucked it the big one. "who was it that introduced fees for uni education?" as just as they we saying Conserv.....NOPE! LABOUR! Now pass that info around your student mates!!!!

Oh and these were not stupid students, as some are, just wet behind the ears. We got into a discussion on no fees in Scotland, LOL. Well they were quick to fire back at me on this. It's not easy to get on courses in Scotland as the uni's up there take in foreign PAYING students to fill up the places. Apparently.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^^ Emily Thornberry stated she would vote to LEAVE today while being interviewed. However once she was challenged she quickly corrected herself. Its amusing to see that not only have they confused the electorate they're beginning to confuse each other 

Click to expand...

Labour is currently full (at the top end) of idiots who have not got a clue what they are doing and have forced out the sensible Labour people. Shame really. Con's and Brexit party to rule me thinks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Labour is currently full (at the top end) of idiots who have not got a clue what they are doing and have forced out the sensible Labour people. Shame really. Con's and Brexit party to rule me thinks.
		
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Thank God all the tories and lib dems are so switched on at the top.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

There is your one nation Tory party in action.
The Labouritory Party, has a good ring to it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193433748068601856


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is your one nation Tory party in action.
The Labouritory Party, has a good ring to it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1193433748068601856

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Well I guess one could say the SNP have wanted the Tory government to lend them a few quid for years.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think that the definition of a "better" deal is subjective. What might be "better" for one person could be the very worst outcome for the next person. And in that respect, using the term "better deal" is just spin.

Would JC vote against his deal, and to Remain? I don't think he will. Its been reported numerous times that he has been at odds with many of his shadow cabinet. He's a Leaver. He wouldn't vote for Boris' deal as voting for anything Tory is just something he wouldn't do but I do think he'll vote for his own deal. Maybe he'll hope the Tory Brexiteers will support that deal... who knows.

A fudge, not wanting to clearly state his Brexit position. He's sitting on the fence in the hope Labour will hoover up more of the floating voters.
		
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A better deal only is one that appeals to more people.
The key is to satisfy a broader spectrum than the current deals.
I donâ€™t know how he will do that and I think 6 months is an ambitious time line.
As stated previously he will possibly select an off the shelf deal (Canada, Norway etc ..) then negotiate the cost. 
Offer that up and see where it goes.

That is if he gets a majority, if not and he makes a liberal, SNP ( I donâ€™t know the feasibility of this) alliance then he could just remain and concentrate on domestic policies. 

So looking at it, where is there synergy in the policies offered by labour and libs/snp (or both) ? Those will go through first and we will see if the Libs and SNP will hold firm unlike Clegg.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well I guess one could say the SNP have wanted the Tory government to lend them a few quid for years. 

Click to expand...

From your perspective probably, but from mine I would have liked to have seen them return our fair share of Scots taxes paid for the last 9 years.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			At a family bonfire on Saturday night there were two students who were going to vote for the first time this election. I couldn't resist. Yup they were Labour..saying all the right things, You know, looking after the people, health blah blah. So I pointed out a few things about Jezza, that they didn't know, then chucked it the big one. "who was it that introduced fees for uni education?" as just as they we saying Conserv.....NOPE! LABOUR! Now pass that info around your student mates!!!!

Oh and these were not stupid students, as some are, just wet behind the ears. We got into a discussion on no fees in Scotland, LOL. Well they were quick to fire back at me on this. It's not easy to get on courses in Scotland as the uni's up there take in foreign PAYING students to fill up the places. Apparently.
		
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The fees are interesting as the the universities have benefited massively and some Bursars as well.
But overall they the students now have access to some of the most sophisticated equipment and software - meaning that when they come out they do not have to be trained but just checked and this offers industry a cost save. Of cause I am only speaking from an Engineering stand point and I will state arrogantly now that everything that is non medical or socially beneficial is a hobby ... 
So although contentious, it has had a positive impact, I am not a fan of the cost escalation and I think there should be wage caps in certain parts of the industry.
I am also aware that there are methods of not paying back the loans and these need to be re-visited as they are generally driving cost for others. 

But I'll also counter your point in the Tories have not scrapped it ... so they must agree with it ..so in general it must have been a good idea ?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 11, 2019)

Brexit party will not field candidate in seats win by torys in 2017.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Brexit party will not field candidate in seats win by torys in 2017.
		
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Farage rowing back on his original bluff and bluster about fielding candidates everywhere if Boris did not drop his plan is hardly surprising as that's what types like him do, spout all sorts of stuff they either have no intention or no ability to carry through. And it makes sense for The Brexit party and Tories to merge at the polls as it is increasingly difficult to tell them apart.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Farage rowing back on his original bluff and bluster about fielding candidates everywhere if Boris did not drop his plan is hardly surprising as that's what types like him do, spout all sorts of stuff they either have no intention or no ability to carry through. And it makes sense for The Brexit party and Tories to merge as the polls as it is increasingly difficult to tell them apart.
		
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so potentially he will contest marginal seats that the tories lost in 2017?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

...splitting the Leave vote making it even less likely that the Tories will win them this time - or maybe if TBP takes more Labour votes than Tory votes then the Tories might win - blimey?...and TBP won't contest seats that the Tories won by a small margin where there is strong Brexit Party support (e.g. Pendle) - a support who have come to view Johnson's Deal as a BRINO - and are now furious to have that chance removed.

And how does it mean that the Tories will win *more *seats than they have at the moment.  Yes - TBP might well win quite a few Labour seats up north where the Tories are toxic and no-noes - but that surely means the Tories will have to rely upon TBP support for them to be able to get anything through parliament?  Besides - I still don't get TBP in Westminster with a Westminster Leader, and hence major mouthpiece, not Farage.

We could end up with a minority Tory Government in the pocket of TBP - and maybe now Farage will stand as he will want to be seen in Westminster be holding the Tories to Johnson's promise that a Johnson government will not seek an extension to the transition period if a deal has not been agreed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

So if this deal gets boris back in power and then we leave the EU almost immediately, will the Brexit MPâ€™s then stand down and call by-elections as they will have no reason to be.
Or will Farage have to change his focus and aim again to keep himself in the media.
Another Party maybe?


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...slitting the Leave vote making it even less likely that the Tories will win them this time - or maybe if TBP takes more Labour votes than Tory votes then the Tories might win - blimey?...and TBP won't contest seats that the Tories won by a small margin where there is strong Brexit Party support (e.g. Pendle) - a support who have come to view Johnson's Deal as a BRINO - and are now furious to have that chance removed.

And how does it mean that the Tories will win *more *seats than they have at the moment.  Yes - TBP might well win quite a few Labour seats up north where the Tories are toxic and no-noes - but that surely means the Tories will have to rely upon TBP support for them to be able to get anything through parliament?  Besides - I still don't get TBP in Westminster with a Westminster Leader, and hence major mouthpiece, not Farage.

We could end up with a minority Tory Government in the pocket of TBP - and maybe now Farage will stand as he will want to be seen in Westminster be holding the Tories to Johnson's promise that a Johnson government will not seek an extension to the transition period if a deal has not been agreed.
		
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I think the Brexit Party will dilute the Tory vote quite a bit, assuming there's still the feelings there was around the time of the Euro elections. If there are still similar feelings around, I wonder how Labour will get on. 

As for your comment on the Brexit Party in Westminster with a Westminster leader not being Farage. I feel exactly the same way about the SNP. I find it a little odd when Sturgeon mouths off about Westminster when her remit is MSP/First Minister in Scotland.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the Brexit Party will dilute the Tory vote quite a bit, assuming there's still the feelings there was around the time of the Euro elections. If there are still similar feelings around, I wonder how Labour will get on.
		
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I was thinking there is a danger here for Boris if there are marginal seats .. we do know the electorate does like to make a point.
But as stated it could be snaffling votes off Labour and Conservative .. it would be interesting to see the marginal seats from the previous election and who 2nd was and how close 3rd was because that could be game changer.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I was thinking there is a danger here for Boris if there are marginal seats .. we do know the electorate does like to make a point.
But as stated it could be snaffling votes off Labour and Conservative .. it would be interesting to see the marginal seats from the previous election and who 2nd was and how close 3rd was because that could be game changer.
		
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There's no question this has handed Boris a massive advantage. No idea why Farage did it, conspiracy theories range from he is doing this under instructions from the Kremlin, he is doing this to get an honour to the more mundane that he just realised that if the Brexit Party took votes from the Tories then Brexit may not happen. I suppose the remain parties could get their act together and start not fielding candidates in a serious way to counter this, but by that stage you kind of think they may as well just have another Brexit referendum instead of one by proxy. Onwards and upwards.....


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## IanM (Nov 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Farage rowing back on his original bluff and bluster about fielding candidates everywhere if Boris did not drop his plan is hardly surprising as that's what types like him do, spout all sorts of stuff they either have no intention or no ability to carry through. And it makes sense for The Brexit party and Tories to merge at the polls as it is increasingly difficult to tell them apart.
		
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Not in the slightest, but it was necessary to get to this point.  I was told by a former colleague several weeks ago that this was in the offing and kept back for a number of reasons.  Nothing to do with the Kremlin!  It is a simple don't split the Leave vote!   The Remain lobby have been saying for weeks that Giles won't stand against Miranda in Brighton West and this was no different!

Brexit Party says that Boris' Deal isn't the full Monty, so, in the unlikely event of them getting an MP (or two) they would have no cause to stand down as they would say they had a mandate to campaign against remaining EU Influence/Controls......  that's logical in my view, even if you disagree with their policy.   It is not as if they are in the House having stood under another banner in the election. 

Meanwhile Labour Candidate "Mhairi Threlfall" also seems to be helping Boris......

If it keeps Corbyn and Abbott out of Government, I think Farage should get a Peerage!   (as he's got no hope of a seat next door!)


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There's no question this has handed Boris a massive advantage. No idea why Farage did it, conspiracy theories range from he is doing this under instructions from the Kremlin, he is doing this to get an honour to the more mundane that he just realised that if the Brexit Party took votes from the Tories then Brexit may not happen. I suppose the remain parties could get their act together and start not fielding candidates in a serious way to counter this, but by that stage you kind of think they may as well just have another Brexit referendum instead of one by proxy. Onwards and upwards.....
		
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I am not quite so sure it's an advantage, hence my post about the 2nd and 3rd place runners .. If for example you have labour and liberal neck and neck, the leavers will possibly migrate to the TBP, but you would see the die hards staying ... leading to the possibility that the Liberals win as they could pick up the centrist tory remain voters (who do exist, I am sure - well I haven't spoken to my mum today)

With respect to the constituencies that were Labour or Liberal with a close Tory 2nd, well he could effectively make them less marginal .. 

I don't know about you, but Farage is to me, more right wing and I think he will struggle to attract the left wing voters. 
Whats the worst thing, voting Tory or voting TBP, for a normal labour voter ? 
I think they would vote Tory and if it goes all wrong they can keep saying what a calamity the Tories have caused, as TBP could disappear into the history books .. pure speculation of cause !


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Farage rowing back on his original bluff and bluster about fielding candidates everywhere if Boris did not drop his plan is hardly surprising as that's what types like him do, spout all sorts of stuff they either have no intention or no ability to carry through. And it makes sense for The Brexit party and Tories to merge at the polls as it is increasingly difficult to tell them apart.
		
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Its a policy known as 'negotiating' something alas many remain types fail to understand.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Brexit party will not field candidate in seats win by torys in 2017.
		
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Because they can't afford to field candidates in the 600 seats Farage bragged about.
I also doubt if they could find 600 dafties to stand, they seem to have thrown out quite a few 'candidates'.


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## IanM (Nov 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Because they can't afford to field candidates in the 600 seats Farage bragged about.
I also doubt if they could find 600 dafties to stand, they seem to have thrown out quite a few 'candidates'.
		
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You could have tried they they are bereft of ideas and had to copy Lib Dims/Green Pact?   Come on, I expect better trolling from you that that


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			You could have tried they they are bereft of ideas and had to copy Lib Dims/Green Pact?   Come on, I expect better trolling from you that that 

Click to expand...

To be fair Ian, as far as trolling is concerned he is about as good at it as his national football and rugby teams are in world sport. the


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the Brexit Party will dilute the Tory vote quite a bit, assuming there's still the feelings there was around the time of the Euro elections. If there are still similar feelings around, I wonder how Labour will get on.

As for your comment on the Brexit Party in Westminster with a Westminster leader not being Farage. I feel exactly the same way about the SNP. I find it a little odd when Sturgeon mouths off about Westminster when her remit is MSP/First Minister in Scotland.
		
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Of course you know that the massive difference between Sturgeon and Farage in that respect, is that Sturgeon has her elected platform in the parliament of own country - the parliament in which many of the most important decisions for the people of Scotland are made.  She mouths off about Westminster in the context of the limitations, constraints and impositions of Westminster on the Scottish Parliament and hence on herself as Scottish First Minster.


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## Fish (Nov 11, 2019)

Iâ€™ve not read a single post on here, but I canâ€™t help saying, that, what a piece of work that Emily Thornberry is, a really horrible excuse for a human being if ever there was one. 

Her whole persona is disgusting, the constant looking away and rolling of the eyes when anyone is speaking g to her is disgraceful. 

I canâ€™t wait for the condescending cow to fall from grace, and the higher the better imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a policy known as 'negotiating' something alas many remain types fail to understand.
		
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What negotiating, both have denied talking to each other over the weekend, boris said No to a deal last week.
Is one or both of them lying then if you reckon this deal has been negotiated?


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## IanM (Nov 11, 2019)

Well, if you see a Brexit candidate standing in a constituency with a sitting Tory MP, you'll know! 

Corbyn of course says this is an outrage and makes trade deals with the USA more likely!  (yes, trading with our biggest ally...outrage!)


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## MegaSteve (Nov 11, 2019)

Any word yet where Boris is going to stand?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Listening to the Farrago-excusistas calling in to LBC is - erm - yes it is rather funny, but it is also depressing as intelligent people try and tell us that this does not reflect negatively in any way whatsoever on the 'great' man.   Richard not so en-Tice-ing was less than his usual bombastic positive self in an interview I heard earlier.  Even Farrago sounded a little apologetic in his statement.

farrago (def.  A confused mixture  )

And I'll leave Farrago just there, because on here we don't do name-calling of politicians.

One thing that this almost certainly does is return Jeremy Hunt as the MP for South-West Surrey as most hopes of a change depended upon TBP taking a bundle of Tory votes.


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## Imurg (Nov 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Any word yet where Boris is going to stand?
		
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Not Aylesbury...we've got someone called Rob Butler.....never heard of him..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Interesting Article:
General election 2019: Will Johnson benefit from Farage's decision? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50378735


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course you know that the massive difference between Sturgeon and Farage in that respect, is that Sturgeon has her elected platform in the parliament of own country - the parliament in which many of the most important decisions for the people of Scotland are made.  She mouths off about Westminster in the context of the limitations, constraints and impositions of Westminster on the Scottish Parliament and hence on herself as Scottish First Minster.
		
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That is what I expected you to come back with. Didn't think you'd see the irony in it.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			Well, if you see a Brexit candidate standing in a constituency with a sitting Tory MP, you'll know! 

Corbyn of course says this is an outrage and makes trade deals with the USA more likely!  (*yes, trading with our biggest ally...outrage*!)
		
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Not 100% sure with the current commander in chief they are our biggest ally and putting a lot of faith in us getting a favourable trade deal may be a little misplaced. As who knows what his thinking is from day to day. He was building a wall in Colorado the other day.


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## IanM (Nov 11, 2019)

The current commander in chief is a bit of a loose cannon all right!  (Mind you so it ours!)

And the alternatives are all awful.

How did we get here?


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## PNWokingham (Nov 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^^ Emily Thornberry stated she would vote to LEAVE today while being interviewed. However once she was challenged she quickly corrected herself. Its amusing to see that not only have they confused the electorate they're beginning to confuse each other 

Click to expand...

but boy, she is a looker!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

I have just listened to a Eddie Mair interview Farage on LBC - with Farage slurping his tea/coffee all through the interview; saying he's not going to refund any money in respect of Brexit Party candidates now not contesting a seat; and when asked when we'll be seeing TBP manifesto as he previously promised - well Farage tells that that was just a joke, and that TBP won't be providing us with a manifesto - because manifestos are just lies.  Brilliant.  What an interview.  Man of the People.

And just wondering what Johnson has 'given' Farage - with or without the knowledge of his cabinet.  Farage thinks a 'lot'.  According to Farage the concessions to Farage turns Johnson BRINO into something closer to 'what the people voted for'.  So he knows...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That is what I expected you to come back with. Didn't think you'd see the irony in it.
		
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Where's the irony?  At least at the moment Farage has a platform in his elected position in the EU Parliament - when we leave he won't.  And he won't have *any* elected platform - unless that is he decides to have a Brexit Party leadership election.


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## jp5 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a policy known as 'negotiating' something alas many remain types fail to understand.
		
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Not the world's best negotiation by Farage it seems.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listening to the Farrago-excusistas calling in to LBC is - erm - yes it is rather funny, but it is also depressing as intelligent people try and tell us that this does not reflect negatively in any way whatsoever on the 'great' man.   Richard not so en-Tice-ing was less than his usual bombastic positive self in an interview I heard earlier.  Even Farrago sounded a little apologetic in his statement.

farrago (def.  A confused mixture  )

And I'll leave Farrago just there, because on here we don't do name-calling of politicians.

One thing that this almost certainly does is return Jeremy Hunt as the MP for South-West Surrey as most hopes of a change depended upon TBP taking a bundle of Tory votes.
		
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Hilarious!!!!

Love it when you get so angry that we might end up with what we voted for that, like a 5 year old, you start name calling ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Donâ€™t know why he wasnâ€™t there, spent the day in Doncaster visiting flood victims and Emergency Crews.
Only 170 miles away so itâ€™ll be interesting to see if anything comes out in the next few days.
		
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Of all the days he choose to go to Doncaster. A direct and obvious snub to the Armed forces  and I'll add IMO and many thousands of vets.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			The current commander in chief is a bit of a loose cannon all right!  (Mind you so it ours!)

And the alternatives are all awful.

How did we get here?
		
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I take it you dont know who is commander in chief of our armed forces. Off with your head


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Of all the days he choose to go to Doncaster. A direct and obvious snub to the Armed forces  and I'll add IMO and many thousands of vets.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...-for-remembrance-sunday-service-11073820/amp/

He laid a wreath on the main day - i would never vote for Labour with Corbyn in charge but the smear campaign on both sides is poor and at time disgraceful 

Seems this whole thing is not about what party can do the best for the UK but which is the worst.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What negotiating, both have denied talking to each other over the weekend, boris said No to a deal last week.
Is one or both of them lying then if you reckon this deal has been negotiated?
		
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Oh what a surprise, you disagreeing with my post. I wish to explain nothing to you as you are a blinkered embittered man with an axe to grind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not 100% sure with the current commander in chief they are our biggest ally and putting a lot of faith in us getting a favourable trade deal may be a little misplaced. As who knows what his thinking is from day to day. He was building a wall in Colorado the other day.
		
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It didn't take long for the UK far right ultras to dance to the Donald's tune.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...-for-remembrance-sunday-service-11073820/amp/

He laid a wreath on the main day - i would never vote for Labour with Corbyn in charge but the smear campaign on both sides is poor and at time disgraceful

Seems this whole thing is not about what party can do the best for the UK but which is the worst.
		
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As someone who was there on the night I can assure you that the comments being made were more than smears, it was taken by many as a direct snub of those serving and Veterans. If you take was different that's fine and I respect your opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Not the world's best negotiation by Farage it seems.
		
Click to expand...

No it was Boris, by not blinking has made Fararge modify his aspirations. Good negotiating is not always about sitting down at a table.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As someone who was there on the night I can assure you that the comments being made were more than smears, it was taken by many as a direct snub of those serving and Veterans. If you take was different that's fine and I respect your opinion.
		
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Itâ€™s nothing but a smear campaign and I have no doubt that some veterans will take it as a direct snub but what exactly is he snubbing ? no one is expected to attend. He was visiting people who are being affected by a current issue , people losing homes and livelihoods 

He was there the next day to pay his respects when it matters

Itâ€™s people just looking to find negatives.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Of all the days he choose to go to Doncaster. A direct and obvious snub to the Armed forces  and I'll add IMO and many thousands of vets.
		
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Iâ€™m not sticking up for him mate, Iâ€™m furious that the Remembrance Service became partly about his absence.
My point is that he could of easily done both.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh what a surprise, you disagreeing with my post. I wish to explain nothing to you as you are a blinkered embittered man with an axe to grind.
		
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Would of been better not to reply if you canâ€™t answer a genuine question.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It didn't take long for the UK far right ultras to dance to the Donald's tune.
		
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I can't believe you could really think that's accurate.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s nothing but a smear campaign and I have no doubt that some veterans will take it as a direct snub but what exactly is he snubbing ? no one is expected to attend. He was visiting people who are being affected by a current issue , people losing homes and livelihoods

He was there the next day to pay his respects when it matters

Itâ€™s people just looking to find negatives.
		
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And then making them up to fill any gaps.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Would of been better not to reply if you canâ€™t answer a genuine question.

Click to expand...

Then you start your policy of rubbishing my reply ðŸ™„  Just leave it out as Im not interested.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you start your policy of rubbishing my reply ðŸ™„  Just leave it out as Im not interested.
		
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Calm down, your only receiving what you give.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Calm down, your only receiving what you give.
		
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  Calm down yourself. Whats it to do with you.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Calm down yourself.
		
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Sure no problem.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s nothing but a smear campaign and I have no doubt that some veterans will take it as a direct snub but what exactly is he snubbing ? no one is expected to attend. He was visiting people who are being affected by a current issue , people losing homes and livelihoods

He was there the next day to pay his respects when it matters

Itâ€™s people just looking to find negatives.
		
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The festival of remembrance has been going since the 1920's I think you'll find. I've attended a few so it isn't that new.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not sticking up for him mate, Iâ€™m furious that the Remembrance Service became partly about his absence.
My point is that he could of easily done both.
		
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Apologies if you got that impression,  it wasn't meant, but it's just a smear campaign according to some so that's ok.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The festival of remembrance has been going since the 1920's I think you'll find. I've attended a few so it isn't that new.
		
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and ?
doesnâ€™t mean people should be looked down on if they donâ€™t attend

We all did the job in the military to allow people to have free will and their own choice - now people like you are using something to remember people as a tool to make political statements and to score points - that in itself is disgusting and goes against everything people fought for 

Imagine how appalled they would be that people are doing that - shameful 

I had a quick look to see which paper would be running a story like it - no surprise which red top it is 

Itâ€™s beyond pathetic that people are using Rememberance Day as a tool like this - pure shame


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			and ?
doesnâ€™t mean people should be looked down on if they donâ€™t attend

We all did the job in the military to allow people to have free will and their own choice - now people like you are using something to remember people as a tool to make political statements and to score points - that in itself is disgusting and goes against everything people fought for

Imagine how appalled they would be that people are doing that - shameful

I had a quick look to see which paper would be running a story like it - no surprise which red top it is

Itâ€™s beyond pathetic that people are using Rememberance Day as a tool like this - pure shame
		
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Why is it every time you are proven wrong you go on the attack. Just accept it and move on. I dont read newspapers,  you obviously do, if you dont like what they print perhaps you should follow my example and stop.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Why is it every time you are proven wrong you go on the attack. Just accept it and move on. I dont read newspapers,  you obviously do, if you dont like what they print perhaps you should follow my example and stop.
		
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Iâ€™m not exactly what Iâ€™m proven wrong about 

I think itâ€™s disgraceful that people use th e Rememberance of the fallen as a tool to score political points - you quite clearly think itâ€™s fine


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not exactly what Iâ€™m proven wrong about 

I think itâ€™s disgraceful that people use th e Rememberance of the fallen as a tool to score political points - you quite clearly think itâ€™s fine
		
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But more disgraceful for the leader of the opposition not to attend imo


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you start your policy of rubbishing my reply ðŸ™„  Just leave it out as Im not interested.
		
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Why would I rubbish a reply that makes sense?
No worries precious, obviously as I canâ€™t ask Iâ€™ll take your posts with a pinch of salt.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not exactly what Iâ€™m proven wrong about

I think itâ€™s disgraceful that people use th e Rememberance of the fallen as a tool to score political points - you quite clearly think itâ€™s fine
		
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No because you did a quick delete before I published. How am I scoring political points, it's a golf forum not the stump.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But more disgraceful for the leader of the opposition not to attend imo
		
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There could be a genuine reason, hence why I believe people on the night should of waited.
Any point scoring or condemning should of waited for a few days imo.
Officially if he couldnâ€™t attend a replacement should of been made known. 
Thornberry was there, but I donâ€™t know in what capacity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But more disgraceful for the leader of the opposition not to attend imo
		
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Why ? Is it a complusory attendance? 

He was there on Sunday to lay the wreath and pay his respects 

Millions put their lives on the line to allow people to have free choice and a free voice 

You and others have used a service to remember them as some political point scoring exercise and gone against what they fought for - sometimes people maybe need to take a step back and wake up to themselves - itâ€™s shameful 

He went to visit people in real trouble right now and thank the emergency services for helping others. I have no doubt that if he was there people like yourself would be calling him a hypocrite because of his beliefs. 

This whole GE campaign onto of Brexit is appalling at times and disgusts me the way people act and talk to others. 

Seems people have forgotten what those who fell fought for.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why ? Is it a complusory attendance? 

He was there on Sunday to lay the wreath and pay his respects 

Millions put their lives on the line to allow people to have free choice and a free voice 

You and others have used a service to remember them as some political point scoring exercise and gone against what they fought for - sometimes people maybe need to take a step back and wake up to themselves - itâ€™s shameful 

He went to visit people in real trouble right now and thank the emergency services for helping others. I have no doubt that if he was there people like yourself would be calling him a hypocrite because of his beliefs. 

This whole GE campaign onto of Brexit is appalling at times and disgusts me the way people act and talk to others. 

Seems people have forgotten what those who fell fought for.
		
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Come on Phil, if Boris missed it you'd have been all over it like a rash


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Come on Phil, if Boris missed it you'd have been all over it like a rash
		
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why - it would be the last thing on my mind because I have far too much respect for my fellow military personal both living and past.

I donâ€™t care if Boris or indeed any politician was there or not - thatâ€™s not what the night is about and itâ€™s beyond the pale that you and others made it about them and not the fallen.

The remembering of the fallen is not some tit for tat pathetic nonsense 

But it just shows exactly what has happened to this country over the past 3 years


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There could be a genuine reason, hence why I believe people on the night should of waited.
Any point scoring or condemning should of waited for a few days imo.
Officially if he couldnâ€™t attend a replacement should of been made known. 
Thornberry was there, but I donâ€™t know in what capacity.
		
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I suspect there is a real reason Paul. He is a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite and prefers the IRA to the British services.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 11, 2019)

Can we all calm down please


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			why - it would be the last thing on my mind because I have far too much respect for my fellow military personal both living and past.

I donâ€™t care if Boris or indeed any politician was there or not - thatâ€™s not what the night is about and itâ€™s beyond the pale that you and others made it about them and not the fallen.

The remembering of the fallen is not some tit for tat pathetic nonsense 

But it just shows exactly what has happened to this country over the past 3 years
		
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Phil, this post is outrageous and one that would get me a long ban if I truthfully answered it


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You and others have used a service to remember them as some political point scoring exercise and gone against what they fought for - sometimes people maybe need to take a step back and wake up to themselves - itâ€™s shameful
.
		
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It's not a service, it's a festival and it is completely normal for the opposition leader and the PM to attend. I am not point scoring, there are no points to be won. I also know full well what WE ALL fought for, I don't need to wake up and I'm certainly not ashamed along with many others about complaining about what I, and they, rightly or wrongly fell it was a direct snub by Mr Corbyn, you don't, that's your opinion and your welcome to it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			and ?
doesnâ€™t mean people should be looked down on if they donâ€™t attend

We all did the job in the military to allow people to have free will and their own choice - now people like you are using something to remember people as a tool to make political statements and to score points - that in itself is disgusting and goes against everything people fought for

Imagine how appalled they would be that people are doing that - shameful

I had a quick look to see which paper would be running a story like it - no surprise which red top it is

Itâ€™s beyond pathetic that people are using Rememberance Day as a tool like this - pure shame
		
Click to expand...

I think you're 100% right in terms of the freedoms a private individual is afforded by the sacrifices of others.

However, Corbyn and every other politician/royal/head of an organisation is there representing others. Corbyn et al represent millions of people... I suppose it comes down to a not in my name, or yes in my name.

I accept and respect Corbyn's personal beliefs in this, just as you highlighted, but not his behaviour when he is representing others.

I think you're both right and wrong on this one. Right on a personal level but wrong on a representative level.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Did JC lay a wreath today? 
Is today the 11th? 

If so, drop it, your degrading remembrance with politics.
But I will also say this, you donâ€™t have to be at a big event or have a overt show of some kind to appreciate that people have died to give us our freedoms.
Nor should we forget how we have had the longest term in Europe of peace, since the Second World War.


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I suspect there is a real reason Paul. He is a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite and prefers the IRA to the British services.
		
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But he was at the Sunday Service laying a wreath or have you conveniently forgotten that as it doesn't fit your narrative? Logic would dictate that if he was all the things you accuse him of he would be at neither.

I'm no Corbyn fan but he pernicious nature of the right wing media campaign is distasteful at best and undemocratic at worst.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you're 100% right in terms of the freedoms a private individual is afforded by the sacrifices of others.

However, Corbyn and every other politician/royal/head of an organisation is there representing others. Corbyn et al represent millions of people... I suppose it comes down to a not in my name, or yes in my name.

I accept and respect Corbyn's personal beliefs in this, just as you highlighted, but not his behaviour when he is representing others.

I think you're both right and wrong on this one. Right on a personal level but wrong on a representative level.
		
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Who attends or not for me is irrelevant - as long as the people are being given a platform to ensure the sacrifice that many made is never forgotten. 

It shouldnâ€™t matter who is in the crowd , all that should matter is the people in the middle - but because of the way the country is going someone ( a Tory supporter ) and a clear Tory disgusting rag paper used the even to score points - that for me is more disgraceful than Corbyn not being there - I have no doubt if he turned up someone would have found a way to point a finger. Corbyn ( and to be clear his attitude and beliefs disgust me ) was there yesterday to pay his respects and lay a wreath as a representative of his party

Just for one weekend and a pretty important weekend - politics and the current embarrassment should have been forgotten with our thoughts and prayers elsewhere. 

Itâ€™s shameful that some peopleâ€™s thoughts were more on a politician not in the crowd as opposed to a veteran in the middle who made a huge sacrifice. 

Politics in the UK is already ripping the country apart - and itâ€™s a shame people couldnâ€™t just switch off for a couple of days  .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I suspect there is a real reason Paul. He is a terrorist sympathiser, an antisemite and prefers the IRA to the British services.
		
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Sorry Chris, thatâ€™s just not needed.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nor should we forget how we have had the longest term in Europe of peace, since the Second World War.
		
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Unfortunately that's not true because the conflict in and amongst those in the former Yugoslavia did happen and thousands of people were massacred and Ukraine is as far as I'm aware still in Europe


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who attends or not for me is irrelevant - as long as the people are being given a platform to ensure the sacrifice that many made is never forgotten.

It shouldnâ€™t matter who is in the crowd , all that should matter is the people in the middle - but because of the way the country is going someone ( a Tory supporter ) and a clear Tory disgusting rag paper used the even to score points - that for me is more disgraceful than Corbyn not being there - I have no doubt if he turned up someone would have found a way to point a finger. Corbyn ( and to be clear his attitude and beliefs disgust me ) was there yesterday to pay his respects and lay a wreath as a representative of his party

Just for one weekend and a pretty important weekend - politics and the current embarrassment should have been forgotten with our thoughts and prayers elsewhere.

Itâ€™s shameful that some peopleâ€™s thoughts were more on a politician not in the crowd as opposed to a veteran in the middle who made a huge sacrifice.

Politics in the UK is already ripping the country apart - and itâ€™s a shame people couldnâ€™t just switch off for a couple of days  .
		
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I noticed he wasn't there but didn't give it much more than a second thought. I thought it sad that a politician that represents so many people wasn't there, and that's as far as it got for me. I agree that his lack of an appearance shouldn't be weaponised for political reasons. Let each of us draw our own conclusions, based on our own beliefs.

Corbyn will drop enough clangers to be pulled up on others things and, as you rightly say, lets focus on what Sunday evening was all about, not what it wasn't.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

I found boris laying the wreath at the Cenotaph yesterday as an insult
How on earth are we meant to believe anybody could do that.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who attends or not for me is irrelevant - as long as the people are being given a platform to ensure the sacrifice that many made is never forgotten.

It shouldnâ€™t matter who is in the crowd , all that should matter is the people in the middle - but because of the way the country is going someone ( a Tory supporter ) and a clear Tory disgusting rag paper used the even to score points - that for me is more disgraceful than Corbyn not being there - I have no doubt if he turned up someone would have found a way to point a finger. Corbyn ( and to be clear his attitude and beliefs disgust me ) was there yesterday to pay his respects and lay a wreath as a representative of his party

Just for one weekend and a pretty important weekend - politics and the current embarrassment should have been forgotten with our thoughts and prayers elsewhere.

Itâ€™s shameful that some peopleâ€™s thoughts were more on a politician not in the crowd as opposed to a veteran in the middle who made a huge sacrifice.

Politics in the UK is already ripping the country apart - and itâ€™s a shame people couldnâ€™t just switch off for a couple of days  .
		
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Please don't assume you know my politics and just because you indulge yourself in reading those "Tory disgusting rag papers" most of us don't.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I found boris laying the wreath at the Cenotaph yesterday as an insult
How on earth are we meant to believe anybody could do that.
		
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Now who's being mischievous?


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I found boris laying the wreath at the Cenotaph yesterday as an insult
How on earth are we meant to believe anybody could do that.
		
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The fact that he hasn't got the ability to concentrate for more than a millisecond was more than obvious.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Now who's being mischievous?
		
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Itâ€™s genuine Bri, I was annoyed over Corbyn on saturday night and then boris sunday.
Both showed a lack of respect, still not happy with any official â€œexcuseâ€ from the Labour party and both men showed a lack of decency. 
I do fear for the next few years in this Country.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Please don't assume you know my politics and just because you indulge yourself in reading those "Tory disgusting rag papers" most of us don't.
		
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Donâ€™t assume I was talking about you - you can read back and see who brought it into the thread.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s genuine Bri, I was annoyed over Corbyn on saturday night and then boris sunday.
Both showed a lack of respect, still not happy with any official â€œexcuseâ€ from the Labour party and both men showed a lack of decency.
I do fear for the next few years in this Country.
		
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I wasn't annoyed about Corbyn, just disappointed. As for Boris; as you said about Corbyn's attendance, how about giving him the benefit of the doubt? Was he disrespectful or plain clumsy?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

So Boris accidentily laid his wreath upside down and Corbyn didnt bow enough. Good heavens above, the disgrace of it all, what on earth will become of the country ðŸ™„  We have become a Nation of snowflakes looking to be offended by something, thats what. Sensationalism personified, everythings catestrophic and we're devastated over every little bit of nit picking trivia.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wasn't annoyed about Corbyn, just disappointed. As for Boris; as you said about Corbyn's attendance, how about giving him the benefit of the doubt? Was he disrespectful or plain clumsy?
		
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Mate, come on, he had 1 job, lay a wreath, only 1 way to do it, not rushed, no panic, plenty of time to get ready and heâ€™s done it before.
What annoyed me about Corbyn is that the aftermath of the Festival is about him and not the stories or the tribute that was so impeccably carried out.
I donâ€™t care if any politician attends or not, but in this day of communications, him or his representative should of been there imo.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, come on, he had 1 job, lay a wreath, only 1 way to do it, not rushed, no panic, plenty of time to get ready and heâ€™s done it before.
What annoyed me about Corbyn is that the aftermath of the Festival is about him and not the stories or the tribute that was so impeccably carried out.
I donâ€™t care if any politician attends or not, but in this day of communications, him or his representative should of been there imo.
		
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Last year half the country wanted to focus on Corbyn's anorak. On Sunday it was Corbyn's no show. Today its Boris' upside down wreath.

120,000 premature deaths laid at the door of austerity.... and people want to focus on anoraks and wreaths. There's priorities to be looked at, and in the great scheme of things people want to focus on anoraks and wreaths.... *sighs and walks away shaking his head*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So Boris accidentily laid his wreath upside down and Corbyn didnt bow enough. Good heavens above, the disgrace of it all, what on earth will become of the country ðŸ™„  We have become a Nation of snowflakes looking to be offended by something, thats what. Sensationalism personified, everythings catestrophic and we're devastated over every little bit of nit picking trivia.
		
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If that of been Corbyn laying the wreath upside down the right wing press and some people on here would of gone spastic in telling us it was on purpose and another snub.
But itâ€™s boris so weâ€™ll call it an accident, just like the BBC â€œaccidentallyâ€ showing footage from 2016 laying a wreath instead of yesterdayâ€™s footage.
This is also the guy who claimed Â£16.50 for a wreath a few years ago and when asked why said it was a mistake


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Last year half the country wanted to focus on Corbyn's anorak. On Sunday it was Corbyn's no show. Today its Boris' upside down wreath.

120,000 premature deaths laid at the door of austerity.... and people want to focus on anoraks and wreaths. There's priorities to be looked at, and in the great scheme of things people want to focus on anoraks and wreaths.... *sighs and walks away shaking his head*
		
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Last year it was the size of Corbynâ€™s Poppy Badge.
Problem is Bri, we donâ€™t control the media, itâ€™s them setting the agenda.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Last year it was the size of Corbynâ€™s Poppy Badge.
Problem is Bri, we donâ€™t control the media, itâ€™s them setting the agenda.
		
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I agree we don't control the media but we do control how we react to it. Should we all rise up and throw stones like the opening scenes of Life of Brian because someone shouted Jehovah or should we show a little more intelligence and focus on what truly matters?

We have the choice of how we react. We don't have to behave as sheep being spoon-fed media rubbish.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree we don't control the media but we do control how we react to it. Should we all rise up and throw stones like the opening scenes of Life of Brian because someone shouted Jehovah or should we show a little more intelligence and focus on what truly matters?

We have the choice of how we react. We don't have to behave as sheep being spoon-fed media rubbish.
		
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I didnâ€™t need the media to tell me how to react to Corbynâ€™s no show or boris showing a lack of care, but tonight weâ€™re having a debate on here on the subject at hand, it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s how we live our lives.
If I came on and said my day involved thereâ€™d be no interest or no debate.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I didnâ€™t need the media to tell me how to react to Corbynâ€™s no show or boris showing a lack of care, but tonight weâ€™re having a debate on here on the subject at hand, it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s how we live our lives.
If I came on and said my day involved thereâ€™d be no interest or no debate.
		
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Mmm, I'm kinda struggling a bit to understand where you're coming from... maybe. I'll pose a question back at you, more from a Devil's Advocate perspective. If you believe you don't need the media to form your own reactions, and I agree with you there, why confront other people's reactions? Surely its up to them how they react and how they verbalise those reactions?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just posing the question about how you confront, or if you should, someone else's beliefs in that respect. They are both right and wrong - its about opinions.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So Boris accidentily laid his wreath upside down and Corbyn didnt bow enough. Good heavens above, the disgrace of it all, what on earth will become of the country ðŸ™„  We have become a Nation of snowflakes looking to be offended by something, thats what. Sensationalism personified, everythings catestrophic and we're devastated over every little bit of nit picking trivia.
		
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Bloody well said. Personally I am pig sick of all this being offended at unintended slips or attempted jokes or quick replies not coming out exactly as intended, and then, if  you are politically against that person , in you lunge, kicking and clawing at them ,self righteous in the opportunity you have been given to be offended.
Tribalism at its worst.
This country used to be known for its sense of fair play etc.
That's all gone.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2019)

Bed time kids, tomorrow you'll be a day older and I would hope wiser. 
Perhaps we might look for the good in people rather than the worst ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, I'm kinda struggling a bit to understand where you're coming from... maybe. I'll pose a question back at you, more from a Devil's Advocate perspective. If you believe you don't need the media to form your own reactions, and I agree with you there, why confront other people's reactions? Surely its up to them how they react and how they verbalise those reactions?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just posing the question about how you confront, or if you should, someone else's beliefs in that respect. They are both right and wrong - its about opinions.
		
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If Iâ€™m correct in what youâ€™re looking for.
I have no issue with someone elseâ€™s beliefs, what I donâ€™t agree with is them making statements they canâ€™t back up or not even attempting to see both sides of the debate.
None of us are perfect, but I see myself as a bit more open minded than some who post on here.
If you tune the rubbish out there are some very educational and informative posts and then there are those who will instantly dismiss said posts with a flippant remark rather than join in.

See post #757 as an example.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately that's not true because the conflict in and amongst those in the former Yugoslavia did happen and thousands of people were massacred and Ukraine is as far as I'm aware still in Europe
		
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Ah your talking about countries that were initially in the communist block. Interesting that when that block broke up the fighting started .. does suggest that the method of holding the block together did not work as well as the EU method. 
Iâ€™ll leave you to ponder that a bit longer.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			None of us are perfect, but I see myself as a bit more open minded than some who post on here.

See post #757 as an example.
		
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ðŸ˜‚


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If Iâ€™m correct in what youâ€™re looking for.
I have no issue with someone elseâ€™s beliefs, what I donâ€™t agree with is them making statements they canâ€™t back up or not even attempting to see both sides of the debate.
None of us are perfect, but I see myself as a bit more open minded than some who post on here.
If you tune the rubbish out there are some very educational and informative posts and then there are those who will instantly dismiss said posts with a flippant remark rather than join in.

See post #757 as an example.
		
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Interesting that post 757 asks and comments on peopleâ€™s bad behaviours but commends one of the key protagonists of the bad blood.

It does feel that if your not far right, you are not entitled to voice an opinion and if you do, every one of them rounds on you with some vitriol and emoji abuse.

Oh and itâ€™s absolutely acceptable to make some offensive post and then team right all rally round saying it was a harmless joke.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Interesting that post 757 asks and comments on peopleâ€™s bad behaviours but commends one of the key protagonists of the bad blood.

It does feel that if your not far right, you are not entitled to voice an opinion and if you do, every one of them rounds on you with some vitriol and emoji abuse.

Oh and itâ€™s absolutely acceptable to make some offensive post and then team right all rally round saying it was a harmless joke.
		
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Your posting style tends to often be in the form you denounce but with fÃ r right replaced by fÃ r left.   If you dont like it then try setting a standard in conciliation, others of us may decide to follow your lead.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your posting style tends to often be in the form you denounce but with fÃ r right replaced by fÃ r left.   If you dont like it then try setting a standard in conciliation, others of us may decide to follow your lead.
		
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And boom , you cannot help yourself !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Hilarious!!!!

Love it when you get so angry that we might end up with what we voted for that, like a 5 year old, you start name calling ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Good you spotted it and found it funny as play on his name given the confusing mixture of messages coming from Farage and his followers - and the contortions some are going through in denial of any change of mind or reversal for him.  And youâ€™ll have spotted that I said in the post that Iâ€™d just leave it at that.

What next from him given he has now firmly reset his stall yet for some right wing papers this new stall is still not good enough.

From my perspective zero representation for TBP in Westminster will be an excellent GE outcome (silver lining to what is almost inevitably going to be a dark cloud for me) so looking forward to more rethinking from Farage on what he should do to put the people first.

EDIT: Farage said _The prime minister has also said he will negotiate a â€œsuper Canada-plusâ€ trade deal with no political alignment, which is closer to what leave voters want._

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-not-contest-317-tory-seats-nigel-farage-says


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Bloody well said. Personally I am pig sick of all this being offended at unintended slips or attempted jokes or quick replies not coming out exactly as intended, and then, if  you are politically against that person , in you lunge, kicking and clawing at them ,self righteous in the opportunity you have been given to be offended.
Tribalism at its worst.
This country used to be known for its sense of fair play etc.
That's all gone.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			If Iâ€™m correct in what youâ€™re looking for.
I have no issue with someone elseâ€™s beliefs, what I donâ€™t agree with is them making statements they canâ€™t back up or not even attempting to see both sides of the debate.
None of us are perfect, but I see myself as a bit more open minded than some who post on here.
If you tune the rubbish out there are some very educational and informative posts and then there are those who will instantly dismiss said posts with a flippant remark rather than join in.

See post #757 as an example.
		
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Ref your comment, "see post #757, are you saying you agree with it or disagree with it? I think I get what you're saying, but only think I get. And this is where arguments can start. Someone might come back at you misunderstanding where you're coming from.

That aside, I did raise a wry smile at Swinglow's self-righteous way he criticises people's self-righteousness. I don't disagree with him, just thought it a little ironic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There could be a genuine reason, hence why I believe people on the night should of waited.
Any point scoring or condemning should of waited for a few days imo.
Officially if he couldnâ€™t attend a replacement should of been made known.
Thornberry was there, but I donâ€™t know in what capacity.
		
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I thought the argument over Corbyn was about him not attending the cenotaph commemoration - and I would have expected him to be there - but that it was about the festival of remembrance on the Saturday evening!!?

In all my many years of watching that â€˜festivalâ€™ I never thought for one moment about political representation being present or important - or even particularly relevant.  It has al ways to me been about the service personnel presenting themselves to their monarch and the country - the service personnel being recognised and of them honouring those colleagues who have gone before over - particularly over the previous century.  I have always felt that the honouring by the country was not that remembrance festival - but that it was and is what Remembrance Sunday is all about.  So a political leader not being at the Festival of Remembrance - not a big deal as irrelevant for me.

Iâ€™m with LP on this.

As for Johnson and the wreath - well Iâ€™m not surprised that he doesnâ€™t quite know which way is up - but it doesnâ€™t bother me one jot.  It is the act and thoughts of remembrance that matter and I am certain his were in the right place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Interesting that post 757 asks and comments on peopleâ€™s bad behaviours but commends one of the key protagonists of the bad blood.

It does feel that if your not far right, you are not entitled to voice an opinion and if you do, every one of them rounds on you with some vitriol and emoji abuse.

Oh and itâ€™s absolutely acceptable to make some offensive post and then team right all rally round saying it was a harmless joke.
		
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Itâ€™s never him mate, heâ€™s had more run ins on the political threads with people than anyone else, heâ€™s even had threads locked but failed to take any responsibility and if you try to debate he throws it back at you with insults.
I had a search this morning and I couldnâ€™t find his last post he posted to create any debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ref your comment, "see post #757, are you saying you agree with it or disagree with it? I think I get what you're saying, but only think I get. And this is where arguments can start. Someone might come back at you misunderstanding where you're coming from.

That aside, I did raise a wry smile at Swinglow's self-righteous way he criticises people's self-righteousness. I don't disagree with him, just thought it a little ironic.
		
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Disagreed with it mate, heâ€™ll of completely missed the irony of his post.

As for misunderstanding, I agree, some of us are far better communicators face to face and intent can be lost in the written word.
Itâ€™s funny though, the self-righteous donâ€™t think it could ever be them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought the argument over Corbyn was about him not attending the cenotaph commemoration - and I would have expected him to be there - but that it was about the festival of remembrance on the Saturday evening!!?

In all my many years of watching that â€˜festivalâ€™ I never thought for one moment about political representation being present or important - or even particularly relevant.  It has al ways to me been about the service personnel presenting themselves to their monarch and the country - the service personnel being recognised and of them honouring those colleagues who have gone before over - particularly over the previous century.  I have always felt that the honouring by the country was not that remembrance festival - but that it was and is what Remembrance Sunday is all about.  So a political leader not being at the Festival of Remembrance - not a big deal as irrelevant for me.

Iâ€™m with LP on this.

As for Johnson and the wreath - well Iâ€™m not surprised that he doesnâ€™t quite know which way is up - but it doesnâ€™t bother me one jot.  It is the act and thoughts of remembrance that matter and I am certain his were in the right place.
		
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Maybe itâ€™s my Military experience compared to others as to how we see things, but I expect certain standards from people in authority on certain occasions, and when itâ€™s not done or shown, I see it as disrespectful, not saying Iâ€™m correct, just the way I see it.


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## patricks148 (Nov 12, 2019)

seen mention this morning on SM about Jo swinson in  shooting party killing Red Squirrels, not seen the clip so could be fake news, but if true... these are a protected species, she should be prosecuted


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			seen mention this morning on SM about Jo swinson in  shooting party killing Red Squirrels, not seen the clip so could be fake news, but if true... these are a protected species, she should be prosecuted
		
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Oof fakery of the highest order .


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

Pretty sad that every year we get all this bile about who isn't wearing a poppy or disrespected remembrance in some way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Pretty sad that every year we get all this bile about who isn't wearing a poppy or disrespected remembrance in some way.
		
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Itâ€™s not bile if it matters to you.
Once again I agree we are all entitled to an opinion, but thatâ€™s just it opinions.
The difference comes when people try to use it as oneupmanship.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe itâ€™s my Military experience compared to others as to how we see things, but I expect certain standards from people in authority on certain occasions, and when itâ€™s not done or shown, I see it as disrespectful, not saying Iâ€™m correct, just the way I see it.
		
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That's absolutely understandable.  I still don't feel it appropriate for newspapers to be making an overtly political point over a politician not being present at the festival of remembrance. 

What is relevant to me is that the right people are in attendance on Remembrance Sunday if they can - because for me (and yes I too am coming from a particular position - a religious one) it is in the remembrance day service and 2mins silence that the country's collective thoughts and prayers of thanksgiving and remembrance for all those who have served and are serving today are demonstrated and expressed. 

And I stress the collective.  That some choose to not attend such services on Remembrance Sunday in no way whatsoever diminishes their personal and individual thoughts and prayers (if used) of thanks and remembrance - in the same way that I may not may wear a poppy to church on Remembrance Sunday or in the preceding days (I did wear one this year).  As for Johnson making a mistake with the placing of the wreath - that matters not one jot to me.  We none of us - not one - deliberately make such mistakes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's absolutely understandable.  I still don't feel it appropriate for newspapers to be making an overtly political point over a politician not being present at the festival of remembrance.

What is relevant to me is that the right people are in attendance on Remembrance Sunday if they can - because for me (and yes I too am coming from a particular position - a religious one) it is in the remembrance day service and 2mins silence that the country's collective thoughts and prayers of thanksgiving and remembrance for all those who have served and are serving today are demonstrated and expressed.

And I stress the collective.  That some choose to not attend such services on Remembrance Sunday in no way whatsoever diminishes their personal and individual thoughts and prayers (if used) of thanks and remembrance - in the same way that I may not may wear a poppy to church on Remembrance Sunday or in the preceding days (I did wear one this year).  As for Johnson making a mistake with the placing of the wreath - that matters not one jot to me.  We none of us - not one - deliberately make such mistakes.
		
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If you put yourself forward to take on or accept certain positions in life then you will know it comes with roles and responsibilities, if you are not happy with what the job entails, donâ€™t do the job, whether thatâ€™s a leader of a political party or say the Captain of a Golf Club.
If you do accept the job then try do it to the best of your ability.


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not bile if it matters to you.
Once again I agree we are all entitled to an opinion, but thatâ€™s just it opinions.
The difference comes when people try to use it as oneupmanship.
		
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My feeds are filled with people being offended with so and so's poppy at a funny angle or whatshername not wearing one or not enough people attending a service.
It's one thing if someone is being disrespectful but the stuff I see is just taking offence where it doesn't really exist.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			And boom , you cannot help yourself !
		
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I see its OK for you but not for me. Sure ðŸ¤Ÿ


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Pretty sad that every year we get all this bile about who isn't wearing a poppy or disrespected remembrance in some way.
		
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Yes, I would love to know what my father and his former POW pal would have said to any landlord who would refuse them a pint for not wearing a poppy in their pub.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My feeds are filled with people being offended with so and so's poppy at a funny angle or whatshername not wearing one or not enough people attending a service.
It's one thing if someone is being disrespectful but the stuff I see is just taking offence where it doesn't really exist.
		
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Sadly the same people will be just as offended by the latest episode of Iâ€™m a Celebrity, big difference between the man in the street having a whinge and a National Media outlet running a story.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, I would love to know what my father and his former POW pal would have said to any landlord who would refuse them a pint for not wearing a poppy in their pub.
		
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Theyâ€™d of probably took the piss out of him and gone to another pub while others got offended on their behalf.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I see its OK for you but not for me. Sure ðŸ¤Ÿ
		
Click to expand...

Correct, you are a fire starter and love to fan the flames .. insults come easily to hand, your condescending in your replies .. and your views are extreme, if not embarrassing.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So if this deal gets boris back in power and then we leave the EU almost immediately, will the Brexit MPâ€™s then stand down and call by-elections as they will have no reason to be.
Or will Farage have to change his focus and aim again to keep himself in the media.
Another Party maybe?

Click to expand...

Nope. If all goes well, the Brexit Party will have enough power to actually make BJ get a better deal or no deal. Once this has been done Nige can drop the baton and find something else to do with his life, as he will not be an MP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Theyâ€™d of probably took the piss out of him and gone to another pub while others got offended on their behalf.
		
Click to expand...

My father would have reacted in the same way he did many years ago when the barman in (the then) Sammy Dow's in Shawlands told him that he had to take his bunnet off or he wouldn't be served.  My dad looked at him ... said a few choice words - and we left (popped across the road to the Georgic - anither not very salubrious Glasgow hostelry - of the sort my auld man preferred)


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ref your comment, "see post #757, are you saying you agree with it or disagree with it? I think I get what you're saying, but only think I get. And this is where arguments can start. Someone might come back at you misunderstanding where you're coming from.

That aside, I did raise a wry smile at Swinglow's self-righteous way he criticises people's self-righteousness. I don't disagree with him, just thought it a little ironic.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I was a little too angry in the manner I was trying to make the point. The point was not only against some in this forum, it is the way society as a whole has gone. I was trying to say that people are too easily offended at what someone says, be it an attempted joke, a reply quickly made that doesn't come  out exactly as intended,or an innocent action, etc . And then those who have made their mind up before that this person is the "opposition" ( for want of a better word), tear into that person in an unfair way.
How many of us, if we were politicians and were asked off the cuff for a response, would be able to say exactly what we wanted to convey each time,
without a mistake. 
Then it gets seized upon and attacked.
You can say it goes with the territory, but that doesn't change what was intended in the reply, so maybe a little leeway could be given.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s never him mate, heâ€™s had more run ins on the political threads with people than anyone else, heâ€™s even had threads locked but failed to take any responsibility and if you try to debate he throws it back at you with insults.
I had a search this morning and I couldnâ€™t find his last post he posted to create any debate.
		
Click to expand...

Are you referring to me.? If so, what threads have been locked because of me? 
I don't even know what happens when a thread is locked! Is the person causing it given a notice or something by the mods, or what?

What different opinions I have posted have been done with the intention of being fair minded. I have never had any communications with the mods, or warnings or anything.
If you consider I have , kindly identify the threads and posts you say I  have affected.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Nope. If all goes well, the Brexit Party will have enough power to actually make BJ get a better deal or no deal. Once this has been done Nige can drop the baton and find something else to do with his life, as he will not be an MP.
		
Click to expand...

Nope. Not a chance of Farage going away, itâ€™s sad people think this GE is only about Brexit.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Are you referring to me.? If so, what threads have been locked because of me?
I don't even know what happens when a thread is locked! Is the person causing it given a notice or something by the mods, or what?

What different opinions I have posted have been done with the intention of being fair minded. I have never had any communications with the mods, or warnings or anything.
If you consider I have , kindly identify the threads and posts you say I  have affected.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™d suggest you take a look at who â€œlikesâ€ your posts and in the tone of the post you initially answered.....stop being a snowflake


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

BBC report that Labour is/was experiencing a sophisticated attack on its digital systems !


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct, you are a fire starter and love to fan the flames .. insults come easily to hand, your condescending in your replies .. and your views are extreme, if not embarrassing.
		
Click to expand...

Thats cleared up then, its ok for you and some others to insult as you see fit but if i respond to it I'm a fire starter and love to fan the flames. My replies are condescending but yours are elevating and thought provoking, thats cleared the fog then. Lets put to one side your intelectual recent comment  to me when discussing Brexit  "You can't even play golf"   or the one I had recently calling me "Socket Boris" and "SocketNigel"   that was an enlightening episode, how about the enlightened one that invited me to 'suck Tory genitalia'  very revealing. I just had another accusing me  of not starting any new threads.
I admit openly to dishing it out in retaliation but unlike you and others of your ilk I dont  insult because someone has a different political view to me.

I know this post will make no impression on you but feel that I have a right to reply and defend myself when slighted.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope. Not a chance of Farage going away, *sad people* think this GE is only about Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Insult included


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d suggest you take a look at who â€œlikesâ€ your posts and in the tone of the post you initially answered.....stop being a snowflake

Click to expand...

So, not able to answer. Not able to identify the threads. Seems I'm nasty because of the identities of those who "like" my postsðŸ¤”

However, if you want an example of what I was talking about laying into people , have a look at post 742ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Iâ€™d suggest you take a look at who â€œlikesâ€ your posts and in the tone of the post you initially answered.....stop being a snowflake*

Click to expand...

Insult included


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats cleared up then, its ok for you and some others to insult as you see fit but if i respond to it I'm a fire starter and love to fan the flames. My replies are condescending but yours are elevating and thought provoking, thats cleared the fog then. Lets put to one side your intelectual recent comment  to me when discussing Brexit  "You can't even play golf"   or the one I had recently calling me *"Socket Boris" and "SocketNigel" *  that was an enlightening episode, how about the enlightened one that invited me to 'suck Tory genitalia'  very revealing. I just had another accusing me  of not starting any new threads.
I admit openly to dishing it out in retaliation but unlike you and others of your ilk I dont  insult because someone has a different political view to me.

I know this post will make no impression on you but feel that I have a right to reply and defend myself when slighted.
		
Click to expand...

I called you SocketBoris, happily hold my hands up, but check the thread, that was my â€œchildish and immatureâ€ response to you using those at me first.
If we are are going to play the childish tit for tat games, at least own up when you start them.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 12, 2019)

Interesting. Or frightening.  Depending on your specific view of how democracy should work.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So, not able to answer. Not able to identify the threads. Seems I'm nasty because of the identities of those who "like" my postsðŸ¤”

However, if you want an example of what I was talking about laying into people , have a look at post 742ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

What part of IT WASNâ€™T AIMED AT YOU do you not get, my post was all about some people adding nothing to the thread and when confronted throw out insults.
The irony in your post proved it, from your posts you seem to lean to the right of politics, imo, and those on the right lazily go for the â€œsnowflakeâ€ remark and donâ€™t even consider a debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Insult included
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Theyâ€™d of probably took the piss out of him and gone to another pub while others got offended on their behalf.
		
Click to expand...

By the time they had finished with the landlord I think that pair would have taken most of the bar's customers with them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Insult included
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve edited said post, apologies for my fat thumbs, well spotted SocketSnowflake.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats cleared up then, its ok for you and some others to insult as you see fit but if i respond to it I'm a fire starter and love to fan the flames. My replies are condescending but yours are elevating and thought provoking, thats cleared the fog then. Lets put to one side your intelectual recent comment  to me when discussing Brexit  "You can't even play golf"   or the one I had recently calling me "Socket Boris" and "SocketNigel"   that was an enlightening episode, how about the enlightened one that invited me to 'suck Tory genitalia'  very revealing. I just had another accusing me  of not starting any new threads.
I admit openly to dishing it out in retaliation but unlike you and others of your ilk I dont  insult because someone has a different political view to me.

I know this post will make no impression on you but feel that I have a right to reply and defend myself when slighted.
		
Click to expand...

I accept that there have been some insults flying around .. quite creative as well and some very cutting. 
Your on a golf forum *just trotting right wing views out.*

I missed the one about suggesting you suck Tory genitalia .. or you have paraphrased it .. But I will say, *you get reflected back at you, your behaviour.*
I don't want to come on here and just read right wing propoganda /lies, there must be another forum, that you can find like minded people who will agree with you and will accept your opinions as totally normal. 

I am disappointed that the moderators have not stepped in enough, but I know they volunteer and have better things to do with their time than stop tit for tat exchanges and *WE* should know better but, *your a perpetual winder and fire starter*. 

I would advise you wind it back in and count to 10 and keep it to yourself... I will do the same and I am sure there are others who will as well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I accept that there have been some insults flying around .. quite creative as well and some very cutting.
Your on a golf forum *just trotting right wing views out.*

I missed the one about suggesting you suck Tory genitalia .. or you have paraphrased it .. But I will say, *you get reflected back at you, your behaviour.*
I don't want to come on here and just read right wing propoganda /lies, there must be another forum, that you can find like minded people who will agree with you and will accept your opinions as totally normal.

I am disappointed that the moderators have not stepped in enough, but I know they volunteer and have better things to do with their time than stop tit for tat exchanges and *WE* should know better but, *your a perpetual winder and fire starter*.

I would advise you wind it back in and count to 10 and keep it to yourself... I will do the same and I am sure there are others who will as well.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m in.


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I accept that there have been some insults flying around .. quite creative as well and some very cutting.
Your on a golf forum *just trotting right wing views out.*

I missed the one about suggesting you suck Tory genitalia .. or you have paraphrased it .. But I will say, *you get reflected back at you, your behaviour.*
I don't want to come on here and just read right wing propoganda /lies, there must be another forum, that you can find like minded people who will agree with you and will accept your opinions as totally normal.

I am disappointed that the moderators have not stepped in enough, but I know they volunteer and have better things to do with their time than stop tit for tat exchanges and *WE* should know better but, *your a perpetual winder and fire starter*.

I would advise you wind it back in and count to 10 and keep it to yourself... I will do the same and I am sure there are others who will as well.
		
Click to expand...




harpo_72 said:



			I accept that there have been some insults flying around .. quite creative as well and some very cutting.
Your on a golf forum *just trotting right wing views out.*

I missed the one about suggesting you suck Tory genitalia .. or you have paraphrased it .. But I will say, *you get reflected back at you, your behaviour.*
I don't want to come on here and just read right wing propoganda /lies, there must be another forum, that you can find like minded people who will agree with you and will accept your opinions as totally normal.

I am disappointed that the moderators have not stepped in enough, but I know they volunteer and have better things to do with their time than stop tit for tat exchanges and *WE* should know better but, *your a perpetual winder and fire starter*.

I would advise you wind it back in and count to 10 and keep it to yourself... I will do the same and I am sure there are others who will as well.
		
Click to expand...

110% true, ive generally stopped replying to SR as all you get back is bile, when ever he gets caught out he resorts to insults. I am staggered how he gets away with it


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

There's several weeks to go of this game. Any chance we could draw a line under this bickering? - its boring, serves no useful purpose because views are entrenched - its wiser to play the ball rather than the person...


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah your talking about countries that were initially in the communist block. Interesting that when that block broke up the fighting started .. does suggest that the method of holding the block together did not work as well as the EU method.
Iâ€™ll leave you to ponder that a bit longer.
		
Click to expand...

I was just correcting your statement about Europe . Didn't realize it was about different political systems within Europe.


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2019)

I have disengaged from the process, not watching any news broadcasts etc as it's all cobblers.   

Can't wait till various folk knock on my door.  That's a good time for a discussion.   But, I suspect as it is a safe seat, most of the others won't bother.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I was just correcting your statement about Europe . Didn't realize it was about different political systems within Europe.
		
Click to expand...

That's fair enough your response made me think deeper into the European situation and it was a very valid observation but brought up the different political systems at play


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2019)

Paul and Socket

Stop the bickering and point scoring please

Not a request


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting. Or frightening.  Depending on your specific view of how democracy should work.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879

Click to expand...

In a way I find it somewhat reassuring that Labour have robust enough defence/security in place to be able to repel such an attack.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What part of IT WASNâ€™T AIMED AT YOU do you not get, my post was all about some people adding nothing to the thread and when confronted throw out insults.
The irony in your post proved it, from your posts you seem to lean to the right of politics, imo, and those on the right lazily go for the â€œsnowflakeâ€ remark and donâ€™t even consider a debate.
		
Click to expand...

Look, there's something not right here. 
This is your post 788, which is the reply you made.
"
Iâ€™d suggest you take a look at who â€œlikesâ€ your posts and in the tone of the post you initially answered.....stop being a snowflake. "

Nowhere does "IT WASNT AIMED AT YOU" appear. Maybe you are replying to many posts at a quick rate and have them mixed up, but you need to check because this has not made you look too good!
In any event, I now know it wasn't aimed at me , but your comment suggests that I am on "your list" as right wing . I must be wary of the knock on the door , come the revolution .
You talk of irony quite often. I am the son and grandson of miners.
being called right wing by you is what I would call ironic!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Di


PhilTheFragger said:



			Paul and Socket

Stop the bickering and point scoring please

Not a request
		
Click to expand...

See post #801


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, there's something not right here.
This is your post 788, which is the reply you made.
"
Iâ€™d suggest you take a look at who â€œlikesâ€ your posts and in the tone of the post you initially answered.....stop being a snowflake. "

Nowhere does "IT WASNT AIMED AT YOU" appear. Maybe you are replying to many posts at a quick rate and have them mixed up, but you need to check because this has not made you look too good!
In any event, I now know it wasn't aimed at me , but your comment suggests that I am on "your list" as right wing . I must be wary of the knock on the door , come the revolution .
You talk of irony quite often. I am the son and grandson of miners.
being called right wing by you is what I would call ironic!
		
Click to expand...

I live in a colliery village, plenty of people living here are right wing, so not sure of your point.
I also said you lean to the right, ie conservative, didnâ€™t say right wing.
The snowflake comment was also followed by a â€œwinking emojiâ€ to add a bit of humour and not to be took serious.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Australian High Commissioner claims they will not share security info with a Corbyn government.

Meanwhile Labour has chosen to alienate the UK's Indian community - I'm wondering why they choose to make such obviously contentious comments at this time !!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Di

See post #801
		
Click to expand...

See post 807 .

Iâ€™m not going to repeat myself


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Australian High Commissioner claims they will not share security info with a Corbyn government.

*His track record on "friends" is a matter of record.*

Meanwhile Labour has chosen to alienate the UK's Indian community - I'm wondering why they choose to make such obviously contentious comments at this time !!

*Same reason the Labour Party have gone anti Jewish Community*

Click to expand...


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			See post 807 .

Iâ€™m not going to repeat myself
		
Click to expand...

You can say that again ðŸ‘


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			In a way I find it somewhat reassuring that Labour have robust enough defence/security in place to be able to repel such an attack.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like it was a Denial of Service attack.  Easily detected and relatively straightforward to combat.  Aim of such an attack is simply to overwhelm the servers being attacked to the extent that they grind to a halt and/or keel over under the load.  Aim in this instance would be to halt Labour Party comms/social media systems and operations - to a halt if possible.  Also sounds like the LP systems security and loadbalancing was up to scratch.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounds like it was a Denial of Service attack.  Easily detected and relatively straightforward to combat.  Aim of such an attack is simply to overwhelm the servers being attacked to the extent that they grind to a halt and/or keel over under the load.  Aim in this instance would be to halt Labour Party comms/social media systems and operations - to a halt if possible.  Also sounds like the LP systems security and loadbalancing was up to scratch.
		
Click to expand...

BBC seems to have rolled back their stance as GCHQ's specialists are suggesting it wasn't serious or sustained. Unsurprisingly there are counterclaims and conspiracy theories springing up.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			BBC seems to have rolled back their stance as GCHQ's specialists are suggesting it wasn't serious or sustained. Unsurprisingly there are counterclaims and conspiracy theories springing up.
		
Click to expand...

Could be right 

A Labour source said that attacks came from computers in Russia and Brazil but the BBC's Gordon Corera has been told the attack was not linked to a state.
Our security correspondent said he had been told the attack was a low-level incident - not a large-scale and sophisticated attack.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Could be right

A Labour source said that attacks came from computers in Russia and Brazil but the BBC's Gordon Corera has been told the attack was not linked to a state.
Our security correspondent said he had been told the attack was a low-level incident - not a large-scale and sophisticated attack.
		
Click to expand...

Anybody who runs a computer using the Linux OS (or other 'Open' OS) rather than Microsoft can easily set their Web activity up to be anonymous and so it then seems to come from another country/location/server. There are 'organisations' on the 'Dark Web' who will do it for a fee; so, unfortunately, it is not too difficult.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Anybody who runs a computer using the Linux OS (or other 'Open' OS) rather than Microsoft can easily set their Web activity up to be anonymous and so it then seems to come from another country/location/server. There are 'organisations' on the 'Dark Web' who will do it for a fee; so, unfortunately, it is not too difficult.
		
Click to expand...

It can be done with a VPN.  You can select a country and server, it then creates a different ip address from that country. I expect theirs is more complex that that though.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			BBC seems to have rolled back their stance as GCHQ's specialists are suggesting it wasn't serious or sustained. Unsurprisingly there are *counterclaims and conspiracy theories springing up*.
		
Click to expand...

I've heard it was Boris using a ZX Spectrum and someone even has published the programming he used.  

10 Print 'Labour are Bad'
20 Goto 10

Hasn't been denied yet so huge if true


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope. Not a chance of Farage going away, itâ€™s sad people think this GE is only about Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Taken from someone a lot cleverer than me on Twitter' _Farage has now discovered what happens when you negotiate on a tight deadline with a far stronger partner for whom not getting a deal isn't nearly as big a threat. '_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

Denial of Service attacks are very unsophisticated and quite easy to launch - but if not properly protected against they can overwhelm vulnerable internet-facing servers. So it's not really true to suggest it's not serious - as it can be.  Often used as a simple 'stacking horse' attack to see how well the target environment copes as the attacker may be able to deduce from that where there might be weaknesses to be exploited.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've heard it was Boris using a ZX Spectrum and someone even has published the programming he used. 

10 Print 'Labour are Bad'
20 Goto 10

Hasn't been denied yet so huge if true 

Click to expand...

Doubt he Ã§ould find the start button without help.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Wouldnâ€™t disagree with any of this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194148822793900034


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## Dando (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wouldnâ€™t disagree with any of this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194148822793900034

Click to expand...

cant wait for my tax to go through the roof to pay for that lot if by some miracle he wins


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It can be done with a VPN.  You can select a country and server, it then creates a different ip address from that country. I expect theirs is more complex that that though.
		
Click to expand...

It will just be botnets,  1000s of compromised machines belonging to unsuspecting people around the globe.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wouldnâ€™t disagree with any of this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194148822793900034

Click to expand...

Nobody could, but paying for it is always the problem. There has already been talk by nurseries suggesting that on the money they would get from government they wouldn't be able to provide enough places with suitably trained staff for pre school children.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody could, but paying for it is always the problem. There has already been talk by nurseries suggesting that on the money they would get from government they wouldn't be able to provide enough places with suitably trained staff for pre school children.
		
Click to expand...

But as the Labour Manifesto with full costings is due for publication next week, what is the talk based on?
Where are these nurseries getting there info from?


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But as the Labour Manifesto with full costings is due for publication next week, what is the talk based on?
Where are these nurseries getting there info from?
		
Click to expand...

I presume they know how much it costs for trained staff, how many youngsters will fall within the age range and how much it would cost to meet the demand. Nobody was disagreeing with the sentiment just the possible cost, it's was a discussion, no politicians, with providers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I presume they know how much it costs for trained staff, how many youngsters will fall within the age range and how much it would cost to meet the demand. Nobody was disagreeing with the sentiment just the possible cost, it's was a discussion, no politicians, with providers.
		
Click to expand...

But Iâ€™d hope the manifesto will show it can be funded, the nurseries canâ€™t say they wonâ€™t get enough money when they donâ€™t know yet what they will be given. 
Iâ€™d imagine some will rub their hands and some will put their hands up.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			cant wait for my tax to go through the roof to pay for that lot if by some miracle he wins
		
Click to expand...

Why are you on Â£100k plus ? Probably equates to Â£5/month from all the honest tax payers.
Of cause Amazon and Vodafone will not pay it ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wouldnâ€™t disagree with any of this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194148822793900034

Click to expand...

Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it. 

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But Iâ€™d hope the manifesto will show it can be funded, the nurseries canâ€™t say they wonâ€™t get enough money when they donâ€™t know yet what they will be given.
Iâ€™d imagine some will rub their hands and some will put their hands up.
		
Click to expand...

And some will still charge to meet the difference


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it.

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.

Click to expand...

Use some of the 88billion from hs2


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it.

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.

Click to expand...

Does look like a huge amount, but there may be a hidden strategy of making places harder to come by .. or killing off courses that are a bit erm pointless ( sorry I donâ€™t have any diplomacy ðŸ™‚)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it.

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.

Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think itâ€™s a soundbite Bri, Iâ€™d expect these tweets to be in the manifesto, and I totally agree how itâ€™s funded will be my issue.
Iâ€™ll save my laughing till then.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it. 

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.

Click to expand...

Its easy. You just say you will borrow it and the outcomes will be an asset. Hey presto it's fully funded.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Use some of the 88billion from hs2
		
Click to expand...

I wish


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides, you're killing me.

1.8 million university students in the UK, excluding foreign students. Annual tuition fees = Â£9250.

Â£1,665,000,000 to fund it.

I'll wait to see how its supposed to be funded in the manifesto but this looks like a soundbite to buy student votes. Sceptical? Hell yes! Affordable... lets wait and see how it and all the other 'buys' are going to be funded.

Click to expand...

We have too much capacity in HE it needs to shrink; any such investment needs to be carefully thought through

We rely too much on overseas fee payers who actually still don't pay the true cost: there are huge number of Chinese, Indian and other nations (especially at postgrad level). Very, very few Brits can afford to stay on to Post Graduate level; I've lectured to p/grads in the UK where only 3 out of 37 were UK: so we are educating the 'competition' and after a few years we will lose our intellectual lead so they will stop coming as their domestic business, science and educational capabilities be way ahead of us!! We need to keep our over seas students coming but be careful at the same time.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Use some of the 88billion from hs2
		
Click to expand...

With the latest government report advising completion will only add to the disgruntlement of many of Boris's already disgruntled constituents...


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s a soundbite Bri, Iâ€™d expect these tweets to be in the manifesto, and I totally agree how itâ€™s funded will be my issue.
Iâ€™ll save my laughing till then.

Click to expand...

In a moment of boredom a week or so back I looked at the share price of the Royal Mail, the rail companies and the water companies. Multiply the share price by the number of shares issued and you get some eye watering numbers. To buy them back under a govt bond scheme, as was mooted before the 2017 GE, will see debts that will need serious profits from those companies to make it viable - and bear in mind one rail company handed back the franchise a couple of years ago because of losses, and another needed a Â£410m bailout(it paid the govt Â£313m to buy the franchise). And TransPenine Express is subsidised to the tune of Â£1.4bn over 9 years.

The water companies paid out Â£1.3bn in dividends in 2017. If the dividend was around the typical 5% you get an idea of how much money the water companies are worth as a business. And Labour are going to fund buying that via a govt bond?

I looked at the numbers the CBI produced last week as their projection for the amount of money Labour would need... unless Labour have come up with some very creative ways of funding their plans they will wreck the UK economy. Not might, will.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2019)

Bit of a weird Tory election broadcast just now, Boris trying to be a â€œman of the peopleâ€ and failing miserably 

It was a bit bizarre to say the least.


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## Wolf (Nov 12, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Bit of a weird Tory election broadcast just now, Boris trying to be a â€œman of the peopleâ€ and failing miserably

It was a bit bizarre to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

Just saw that myself on ITV, really couldnt work out how he thought stating not be able get a Thai curry delivered to No10 due to the high level of security made him a man of the people...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In a moment of boredom a week or so back I looked at the share price of the Royal Mail, the rail companies and the water companies. Multiply the share price by the number of shares issued and you get some eye watering numbers. To buy them back under a govt bond scheme, as was mooted before the 2017 GE, will see debts that will need serious profits from those companies to make it viable - and bear in mind one rail company handed back the franchise a couple of years ago because of losses, and another needed a Â£410m bailout(it paid the govt Â£313m to buy the franchise). And TransPenine Express is subsidised to the tune of Â£1.4bn over 9 years.

The water companies paid out Â£1.3bn in dividends in 2017. If the dividend was around the typical 5% you get an idea of how much money the water companies are worth as a business. And Labour are going to fund buying that via a govt bond?

I looked at the numbers the CBI produced last week as their projection for the amount of money Labour would need... unless Labour have come up with some very creative ways of funding their plans they will wreck the UK economy. Not might, will.
		
Click to expand...

I think they are aware that method would be costly. I suspect they will drive the cost down by setting standards and penalise .. possibly slowly clawing it back.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In a moment of boredom a week or so back I looked at the share price of the Royal Mail, the rail companies and the water companies. Multiply the share price by the number of shares issued and you get some eye watering numbers. To buy them back under a govt bond scheme, as was mooted before the 2017 GE, will see debts that will need serious profits from those companies to make it viable - and bear in mind one rail company handed back the franchise a couple of years ago because of losses, and another needed a Â£410m bailout(it paid the govt Â£313m to buy the franchise). And TransPenine Express is subsidised to the tune of Â£1.4bn over 9 years.

The water companies paid out Â£1.3bn in dividends in 2017. If the dividend was around the typical 5% you get an idea of how much money the water companies are worth as a business. And Labour are going to fund buying that via a govt bond?

I looked at the numbers the CBI produced last week as their projection for the amount of money Labour would need... unless Labour have come up with some very creative ways of funding their plans they will wreck the UK economy. Not might, will.
		
Click to expand...

I have to admit I've given up looking for logic or taking seriously any numbers or promises made over the next few weeks - the electioneering is one thing but the bickering and trying to get the last word is just beyond the pail.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

BBC's headlines quote how the Lib Dem and Labour are complaining about the response to the floods around Doncaster etc.; floods that have not occurred before in 100 years.  Its bloody tragic for those caught up in it and the last thing they and the emergency services need is MPs and associated media circus tramping around getting under their feet  and making it a political football.


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Just saw that myself on ITV, really couldnt work out how he thought stating not be able get a Thai curry delivered to No10 due to the high level of security made him a man of the people...
		
Click to expand...

Like Osborne and his Byron burger gaff


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In a moment of boredom a week or so back I looked at the share price of the Royal Mail, the rail companies and the water companies. Multiply the share price by the number of shares issued and you get some eye watering numbers. To buy them back under a govt bond scheme, as was mooted before the 2017 GE, will see debts that will need serious profits from those companies to make it viable - and bear in mind one rail company handed back the franchise a couple of years ago because of losses, and another needed a Â£410m bailout(it paid the govt Â£313m to buy the franchise). And TransPenine Express is subsidised to the tune of Â£1.4bn over 9 years.

The water companies paid out Â£1.3bn in dividends in 2017. If the dividend was around the typical 5% you get an idea of how much money the water companies are worth as a business. And Labour are going to fund buying that via a govt bond?

I looked at the numbers the CBI produced last week as their projection for the amount of money Labour would need... unless Labour have come up with some very creative ways of funding their plans they will wreck the UK economy. Not might, will.
		
Click to expand...

What if it worked though Bri?
What if? Would we better off as a Nation for it?
For all the worries over the Labour spending plans I donâ€™t believe the tories have exactly been successful over the last 10 years.
As for Manifestoâ€™s itâ€™ll be easy to pour scorn on Labours as theyâ€™ve promised costs, the tories are refusing to cost theirs and Farage has stated the Brexit party wonâ€™t have one.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What if it worked though Bri?
What if? Would we better off as a Nation for it?
For all the worries over the Labour spending plans I donâ€™t believe the tories have exactly been successful over the last 10 years.
As for Manifestoâ€™s itâ€™ll be easy to pour scorn on Labours as theyâ€™ve promised costs, the tories are refusing to cost theirs and Farage has stated the Brexit party wonâ€™t have one.
		
Click to expand...

I gave up believing fairy stories many years ago.

Do you honestly believe its affordable? Yes, if they were implemented there'd be some huge benefits but what will it cost the man in the streets in terms of taxes?

ALL the parties are making outlandish promises to buy votes. It absolutely stinks but its what the UK parties do.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 12, 2019)

Wonder if he'll say anything other than.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194355586495733760


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I gave up believing fairy stories many years ago.

Do you honestly believe its affordable? Yes, if they were implemented there'd be some huge benefits but what will it cost the man in the streets in terms of taxes?

ALL the parties are making outlandish promises to buy votes. It absolutely stinks but its what the UK parties do.
		
Click to expand...

True about fairy stories, but weâ€™re currently living a nightmare and maybe weâ€™d be better trying to shoot for the moon rather than dragging our ar5es along the streets.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			cant wait for my tax to go through the roof to pay for that lot if by some miracle he wins
		
Click to expand...

No tax rise for anyone except the top 5% of earners.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 12, 2019)

Wonder if she'll make an appearance down here 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194364881753067521


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## Beezerk (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			True about fairy stories, *but weâ€™re currently living a nightmare* and maybe weâ€™d be better trying to shoot for the moon rather than dragging our ar5es along the streets.
		
Click to expand...

How's that exactly?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No tax rise for anyone except the top 5% of earners.
		
Click to expand...

No income tax rise for anyone except the top 5% but if they go through with their pledge to raise corporation tax back to 25/26% that will hit a lot more than just the top 5% of earners.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			True about fairy stories, but weâ€™re currently living a nightmare and maybe weâ€™d be better trying to shoot for the moon rather than dragging our ar5es along the streets.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure quoting Peale, albeit bastardised, qualifies as a reasoned argument.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			How's that exactly?
		
Click to expand...

Foodbanks, premature deaths due to austerity measures, National debt.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not sure quoting Peale, albeit bastardised, qualifies as a reasoned argument.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry mate, not that clever, who?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No income tax rise for anyone except the top 5% but if they go through with their pledge to raise corporation tax back to 25/26% that will hit a lot more than just the top 5% of earners.
		
Click to expand...

Was answering a direct post.
Iâ€™ll wait to see the Manifesto before I could comment on that as I donâ€™t know.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Foodbanks, premature deaths due to austerity measures, National debt.
		
Click to expand...

And how many food banks, premature deaths in other EU countries and national debts in those countries are you going to attribute to the Tories? Which party massively overspent during the boom years, running up even greater debts funding the biggest expansion of state employment in the western world, and now wants to more than repeat it. Austerity has to end, and we'll see what is proposed in the manifestos.



pauldj42 said:



			Sorry mate, not that clever, who?
		
Click to expand...

The guy who is attributed with "shoot for the moon..." Strangely enough, I think he had quite a dodgy past but can't remember what it was... old age and rattling marbles I guess.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And how many food banks, premature deaths in other EU countries and national debts in those countries are you going to attribute to the Tories? Which party massively overspent during the boom years, running up even greater debts funding the biggest expansion of state employment in the western world, and now wants to more than repeat it. Austerity has to end, and we'll see what is proposed in the manifestos.



The guy who is attributed with "shoot for the moon..." Strangely enough, I think he had quite a dodgy past but can't remember what it was... old age and rattling marbles I guess.
		
Click to expand...

Whatâ€™s other Countries got to do with it? Youâ€™ve lost me.
Homelessness is up at record levels, they promised the National debt would be sorted by 2015, then 2017, then 2019, now 2025.
Mental Health crisis, and funding has been cut.
20,000 Police promised, no actual funding yet, but still not back to the level of 2010.
2015 they promised 200,000 brand new homes in a flagship scheme, this year it was admitted not a single one had been built.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 12, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194377140822781952


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

The Government have never said the National debt will be cleared by any date. They have said they will reduce and remove the National Deficit, there's a big difference.  Its funny how some people decry the government for not removing the deficit but also complain of austerity, its pretty basic ecconomics that if you're spending and borrowing too much you have to cut spending to fix it, I thought we all understood you can't borrow your way out of debt.

Regarding food banks, they are a fairly new concept and do a great job, I think its wrong to suggest they are a symptom of the current government though. If food banks had been available at any time in the past they would have been used and needed, I know my Mother would have used them at times if they had been there.

Some people are indeed poor now just like always but in general things are quite good for many, employment is high and especially in full time jobs, the minimum wage has increased year on year and average wage increases continues to outstrip inflation.  If we want better services we have to produce more wealth and that means making it easier for new and existing businesses to thrive, that can't be be done by just increasing tax or creating circumstances where new businesses are hampered by red tape. 

We have a wonderful country and often forget that, we can make it even better but only by hard work and throwing off the cloak of despair so many want to smother it in.  OK there's so much more to do but bankrupting the country will benefit no one in the long term.


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## Mudball (Nov 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really? https://news.sky.com/story/general-...ers-to-campaign-in-uk-against-labour-11854965

Click to expand...

... and a pull back according to Times Of India today ... Because every vote counts...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2019)

Looks like Labour manifesto strategy is to just cut and paste successful SNP policies, good to see them becoming socialists again.

Funny how 9 years of austerity suddenly ends when a crucial Brexit vote in a GE happens.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 13, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			With the latest government report advising completion will only add to the disgruntlement of many of Boris's already disgruntled constituents...
		
Click to expand...

Slot on BBC news, yesterday evening, about HS2 complete with disgruntled   Boris constituents... Election won't just be about Brexit...


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whatâ€™s other Countries got to do with it? Youâ€™ve lost me.
Homelessness is up at record levels, they promised the National debt would be sorted by 2015, then 2017, then 2019, now 2025.
Mental Health crisis, and funding has been cut.
20,000 Police promised, no actual funding yet, but still not back to the level of 2010.
2015 they promised 200,000 brand new homes in a flagship scheme, this year it was admitted not a single one had been built.
		
Click to expand...

You brought up food banks. I was merely highlighting they exist in many EU countries, and that includes in left wing and right wing governed countries.

And you can have all the Police, social care etc if you're willing to pay for it, whether that be through higher taxation or self-funding. You get the chance in a month's time to choose. The maths for it, albeit rudimentary is fairly straightforward. Divide a party's new spending requirements by the number of workers. You could go a little further and look at the current Corporation Tax revenue and add 5%, then look at income tax.

The tax the higher earners to pay for it is laughable, and its soundbite politics - it appeals to the masses. Would adding 5% to the high earners make that much difference to a multi-million pound spending programme? It will barely touch the sides.

Austerity went too deep and for too long. Change is needed, big change is needed. But for me, Labour's spend spend spend and re-nationalise is unicorns running up the Mall, and very expensive unicorns too. And if that's what people want, I have no problem with it at all, just as I have no problem with anyone that voted Leave. Its their political choice, and the type of life they want. But like the cries of "Leavers didn't know what they were voting for," I hope that everyone, no matter who they vote for take the time to look behind the soundbite politics.


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## USER1999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Labours pledge for free higher education is a bit misleading. From what I have read, it is only for certain degrees, Engineering, Nursing, Accounting, Medicsl, etc. It's not for all courses. This is not being as well publicised as the sound bite free education for all, as I guess it won't get as many votes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You brought up food banks. I was merely highlighting they exist in many EU countries, and that includes in left wing and right wing governed countries.

And you can have all the Police, social care etc if you're willing to pay for it, whether that be through higher taxation or self-funding. You get the chance in a month's time to choose. The maths for it, albeit rudimentary is fairly straightforward. Divide a party's new spending requirements by the number of workers. You could go a little further and look at the current Corporation Tax revenue and add 5%, then look at income tax.

The tax the higher earners to pay for it is laughable, and its soundbite politics - it appeals to the masses. Would adding 5% to the high earners make that much difference to a multi-million pound spending programme? It will barely touch the sides.

Austerity went too deep and for too long. Change is needed, big change is needed. But for me, Labour's spend spend spend and re-nationalise is unicorns running up the Mall, and very expensive unicorns too. And if that's what people want, I have no problem with it at all, just as I have no problem with anyone that voted Leave. Its their political choice, and the type of life they want. But like the cries of "Leavers didn't know what they were voting for," I hope that everyone, no matter who they vote for take the time to look behind the soundbite politics.
		
Click to expand...

I guess if everyone looks beyond the soundbites nobody will be voting in the GE, letâ€™s just keep basing our future on the past and ignore trying to fix it.
This is a few years old but suns up some of the issues, the rich ate getting richer and the gap between them and the poorest is widening, didnâ€™t all the rich threaten to leave if Blair got in? How many actually went or did they realise just how better off they were staying.
As for other Countries, I genuinely couldnâ€™t give a stuff.
Iâ€™ll read the Manifestoâ€™s and then make my choice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			I have to admit I've given up looking for logic or taking seriously any numbers or promises made over the next few weeks - the electioneering is one thing but the bickering and trying to get the last word is just beyond the pail.
		
Click to expand...

Criticise Labour and LibDem spending plans as we might well do and be justified in doing so - but as the Javid has told us that economic forecasting of the impact of Johnson's deal is not required as the benefits are self-evident - how can we believe anything that the Conservative party say that they can afford if in government.  Then again I suppose Javid's logic fits well with the Leave Leaders criticism of Treasury Forecasts as always being inaccurate - and so in the main to be ignored.  I guess we look to Super Canada Plus - how will that work for the economy?  Who knows. We don't even know what it is... Such is the tangled web that has been woven.

I ask my son what it's like living in Sheffield on a rather less than wealthy housing estate (between Shirecliffe and Parson's Cross - so folk who know Sheffield will know the area) and on less than the minimum wage (he is self-employed) - and he'll tell you that it is very tough - has been for many years - and that people are finding things very, very difficult.  These communities need a significant step change to happen as the economic model of the last few decades just has not worked, and is not working for them.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope. Not a chance of Farage going away, itâ€™s sad people think this GE is only about Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry old bean, but it is. This is the referendum the idiots were calling for.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I guess if everyone looks beyond the soundbites nobody will be voting in the GE, letâ€™s just keep basing our future on the past and ignore trying to fix it.
This is a few years old but suns up some of the issues, the rich ate getting richer and the gap between them and the poorest is widening, didnâ€™t all the rich threaten to leave if Blair got in? How many actually went or did they realise just how better off they were staying.
As for other Countries, I genuinely couldnâ€™t give a stuff.
Iâ€™ll read the Manifestoâ€™s and then make my choice.



View attachment 28554

Click to expand...

What has a government got to do with wage rises? Its not a communist state. I've sat in meetings in which salaries and bonuses are decided for the workforce, and it was sickening. If you want to blame someone, blame the selfish bosses that award themselves those pay rises. Its an attitude amongst a number of bosses/owners that you need to consider, not the political parties. I sat in those meetings for 17 years, i.e. before the Tories came to power, and those attitudes were prevalent under Labour too. Its the politics of selfishness that prevails in the boardroom, and has nothing to do with whatever party is in power.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Sorry old bean, but it is. This is the referendum the idiots were calling for.
		
Click to expand...

Idiots everywhere though and if you wish to risk you and your childrenâ€™s future on Brexit alone, then fill your boots, Iâ€™d rather look at the bigger picture.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Sorry old bean, but it is. This is the referendum the idiots were calling for.
		
Click to expand...

which idiots?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What has a government got to do with wage rises? Its not a communist state. I've sat in meetings in which salaries and bonuses are decided for the workforce, and it was sickening. If you want to blame someone, blame the selfish bosses that award themselves those pay rises. Its an attitude amongst a number of bosses/owners that you need to consider, not the political parties. I sat in those meetings for 17 years, i.e. before the Tories came to power, and those attitudes were prevalent under Labour too. Its the politics of selfishness that prevails in the boardroom, and has nothing to do with whatever party is in power.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, I believe ANY government has a role in this, they can influence attitude and look to change it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which idiots?
		
Click to expand...

The ones in the tory party that didnâ€™t support TM to get her deal through.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree, I believe ANY government has a role in this, they can influence attitude and look to change it.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Paul but that is pure fantasy, or at least I hope it is. And it is a real danger to the economy. As soon as you get governments interfering to that level is businesses you will see foreign investment shrink. You will see share prices tumble, which will also affect many people's pensions. Having governments setting salary levels is wholly wrong. Yes, lets cap bonuses, especially the untaxed share bonuses that a number receive.

What happens when a business looks to expand, take on more employees, broaden its portfolio but the government of the day says you must increase salaries based on gross profits? Or says a business must increase pay by the rate of inflation but the business is virtually on its backside? As an employee would you accept half the inflation rate and still have a job or the full rise and be out of a job in 6 months?

Blaming governments for who is rich and who isn't is naive. Bosses decide pay levels, especially their own.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The ones in the tory party that didnâ€™t support TM to get her deal through.

Click to expand...

Ah right - I was hoping it wasn't aimed at that part of the electorate who voted to Remain...and who might still be thinking that Leaving is a pretty daft thing for the UK to do...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Paul but that is pure fantasy, or at least I hope it is. And it is a real danger to the economy. As soon as you get governments interfering to that level is businesses you will see foreign investment shrink. You will see share prices tumble, which will also affect many people's pensions. Having governments setting salary levels is wholly wrong. Yes, lets cap bonuses, especially the untaxed share bonuses that a number receive.

What happens when a business looks to expand, take on more employees, broaden its portfolio but the government of the day says you must increase salaries based on gross profits? Or says a business must increase pay by the rate of inflation but the business is virtually on its backside? As an employee would you accept half the inflation rate and still have a job or the full rise and be out of a job in 6 months?

Blaming governments for who is rich and who isn't is naive. Bosses decide pay levels, especially their own.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. The minimum wage increases over recent years have been an improvement for low paid employees and an area where government has been able to intervene.
We paid our employees a very competitive salary and allocated 20% of gross profit into an employee annual bonus scheme. Many employers just don't understand the benefits of a well motivated workforce. I agree that governments can not control pay in the private sector, that's been tried before and failed.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Criticise Labour and LibDem spending plans as we might well do and be justified in doing so - but as the Javid has told us that economic forecasting of the impact of Johnson's deal is not required as the benefits are self-evident - how can we believe anything that the Conservative party say that they can afford if in government.  Then again I suppose Javid's logic fits well with the Leave Leaders criticism of Treasury Forecasts as always being inaccurate - and so in the main to be ignored.  I guess we look to Super Canada Plus - how will that work for the economy?  Who knows. We don't even know what it is... Such is the tangled web that has been woven.

I ask my son what it's like living in Sheffield on a rather less than wealthy housing estate (between Shirecliffe and Parson's Cross - so folk who know Sheffield will know the area) and on less than the minimum wage (he is self-employed) - and he'll tell you that it is very tough - has been for many years - and that people are finding things very, very difficult.  These communities need a significant step change to happen as the economic model of the last few decades just has not worked, and is not working for them.
		
Click to expand...

'the Javid'   hope that was a typo.
Is your son still playing in a band?  If so he is in charge of his earnings, not the government.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Criticise Labour and LibDem spending plans as we might well do and be justified in doing so - but as the Javid has told us that economic forecasting of the impact of Johnson's deal is not required as the benefits are self-evident - how can we believe anything that the Conservative party say that they can afford if in government.  Then again I suppose Javid's logic fits well with the Leave Leaders criticism of Treasury Forecasts as always being inaccurate - and so in the main to be ignored.  I guess we look to Super Canada Plus - how will that work for the economy?  Who knows. We don't even know what it is... Such is the tangled web that has been woven.

I ask my son what it's like living in Sheffield on a rather less than wealthy housing estate (between Shirecliffe and Parson's Cross - so folk who know Sheffield will know the area) and on less than the minimum wage (he is self-employed) - and he'll tell you that it is very tough - has been for many years - and that people are finding things very, very difficult.  These communities need a significant step change to happen as the economic model of the last few decades just has not worked, and is not working for them.
		
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Its not for Javid to tell us they don't need to publish their costings. The electorate determines whether or not we agree with their spending plans. If they don't tell us I know where my vote would go, and it wouldn't be a blind faith vote.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Paul but that is pure fantasy, or at least I hope it is. And it is a real danger to the economy. As soon as you get governments interfering to that level is businesses you will see foreign investment shrink. You will see share prices tumble, which will also affect many people's pensions. Having governments setting salary levels is wholly wrong. Yes, lets cap bonuses, especially the untaxed share bonuses that a number receive.

What happens when a business looks to expand, take on more employees, broaden its portfolio but the government of the day says you must increase salaries based on gross profits? Or says a business must increase pay by the rate of inflation but the business is virtually on its backside? As an employee would you accept half the inflation rate and still have a job or the full rise and be out of a job in 6 months?

Blaming governments for who is rich and who isn't is naive. Bosses decide pay levels, especially their own.
		
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Iâ€™m not blaming Governments for who is rich and who isnâ€™t, Iâ€™m saying they have a role to play in greed.
Closing Tax loopholes etc, the fact is poverty is on the increase and all of society have a role to play and a Government should be leading the way.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not blaming Governments for who is rich and who isnâ€™t, Iâ€™m saying they have a role to play in greed.
Closing Tax loopholes etc, the fact is poverty is on the increase and all of society have a role to play and a Government should be leading the way.
		
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Its one we'll have to disagree on Paul. I detest the idea of a nanny state, becoming more and more involved in so many aspects of life. Its a no to the thin end of the (communist) wedge for me.

Educate people, and highlight greed yes, but legislate, no.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2019)

It appears Jo Swinson was telling porkies, her candidate in Canterbury is standing aside to give the Labour standing candidate a free run.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It appears Jo Swinson was telling porkies, her candidate in Canterbury is standing aside to give the Labour standing candidate a free run.
		
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Not that I agree with any party doing these deals, but why isnâ€™t she advocating standing down candidates in Labour held remain areas to defeat Brexit.
In the last tory/lib government she was one of the worst for supporting the tories.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194585252091617282


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It appears Jo Swinson was telling porkies, her candidate in Canterbury is standing aside to give the Labour standing candidate a free run.
		
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BBC are reporting it as the personal choice of the Lib Dem candidate to allow Labour a free run but that the Lib Dems are looking for someone else to run for that seat.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Is it time to have a NOTA (None Of The Above) option on the ballot paper?    different countries have different approach to NOTA.  We should have a re-run in the constituency which votes for NOTA

For more explaination head to the fountain of truth:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above#NOTA_UK

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I think Australia has it but voting is mandatory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			'the Javid'   hope that was a typo.
Is your son still playing in a band?  If so he is in charge of his earnings, not the government.
		
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He doesn't - but he is still working in the 'gig' economy - and in that he works essentially as a zero hours worker being dependent upon *others *for work.  If others do not have work for him then he does not have any work.

For him (and us) that is a complete nightmare since he earns at rate that equivalences (over a 60hr week) to, in a good week, the minimum wage.  His earnings are only just enough to cover his very meagre and austere life-style and they don't cover it when work is thin; plus he struggles every month, every single month, to have enough to pay his rent. And he is not alone in this in the part of Sheffield where he lives - where living an austere life is pretty much the way-of-life for many if not most.

And so we should not be surprised that some South Yorkshire residents suffering very serious flood damage to their house are a bit angry when Johnson wanders up and makes a very generous offer of Â£500 to help sort their problems.  Can't imagine he really understands the financial affairs of these folks. Thanks Boris.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn't - but he is still working in the 'gig' economy - and in that he works essentially as a zero hours worker being dependent upon *others *for work.  If others do not have work for him then he does not have any work.

For him (and us) that is a complete nightmare since he earns at rate that equivalences (over a 60hr week) to, in a good week, the minimum wage.  His earnings are only just enough to cover his very meagre and austere life-style and they don't cover it when work is thin; plus he struggles every month, every single month, to have enough to pay his rent. And he is not alone in this in the part of Sheffield where he lives - where living an austere life is pretty much the way-of-life for many if not most.

And so we should not be surprised that some South Yorkshire residents suffering very serious flood damage to their house are a bit angry when Johnson wanders up and makes a very generous offer of Â£500 to help sort their problems.  Can't imagine he really understands the financial affairs of these folks. Thanks Boris.
		
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Is it not possible for him to start some form of education that would lead to him having a better chance to improve his lot.  Seems he is painted into a corner at the moment.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 13, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn't - but he is still working in the 'gig' economy - and in that he works essentially as a zero hours worker being dependent upon *others *for work.  If others do not have work for him then he does not have any work.

For him (and us) that is a complete nightmare since he earns at rate that equivalences (over a 60hr week) to, in a good week, the minimum wage.  His earnings are only just enough to cover his very meagre and austere life-style and they don't cover it when work is thin; plus he struggles every month, every single month, to have enough to pay his rent. And he is not alone in this in the part of Sheffield where he lives - where living an austere life is pretty much the way-of-life for many if not most.

And so we should not be surprised that some South Yorkshire residents suffering very serious flood damage to their house are a bit angry when Johnson wanders up and makes a very generous offer of Â£500 to help sort their problems.  Can't imagine he really understands the financial affairs of these folks. Thanks Boris.
		
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Yup. Lady Doon's first comment was â€¦.Â£500 ...does that 'flipping' idiot not realise that barely covers the cost of two skips.
Lady Doon never used to swear, now she lets rip on anything concerning Johnson and Gove. Ken Clarke is lovely though.

Who remembers Ted Heath offering Â£5 to the salesperson to buy two M&S sweaters in a 'photo opportunity' before an election.
Cost them a lot of votes that did.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2019)

Libs standing down on Canterbury.. seems a bit daft as they are more likely to get a vote than labour.. oops the students are in town still


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








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Quite right to.
There would have been every chance that the unscrupulous pair would have used the opportunity of the two leaders debate to take a free pot shot at the SNP.
No taxation without representation.


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## Paperboy (Nov 13, 2019)

So when legally do they have to release their manifesto's? I'll be out of the country so want to read up on them in more depth this time.


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## drdel (Nov 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite right to.
There would have been every chance that the unscrupulous pair would have used the opportunity of the two leaders debate to take a free pot shot at the SNP.
No taxation without representation.
		
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Surely as a commercial station they can make a programme to their spec, if it was the BBC I could see the point.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








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I agree


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Surely as a commercial station they can make a programme to their spec, if it was the BBC I could see the point.
		
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I would imaging that the company would not be allowed to show political bias in an election.
Mind you that does not seem to have stopped the BBC.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imaging that the company would not be allowed to show political bias in an election.
		
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Why not? Is TV treated differently to the print media? The Mirror/Guardian and Telegraph/Mail show huge bias during an election.


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## drdel (Nov 13, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why not? Is TV treated differently to the print media? The Mirror/Guardian and Telegraph/Mail show huge bias during an election.
		
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A good point I'd not thought about - be interesting to see what the Court makes, if anything, of the potential impact on freedom of the press.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2019)

Anyone know which dungeon the Tories have locked Rees- Mogg up in.


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## robinthehood (Nov 14, 2019)

Tories make vague promise on immigration
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50412772


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

It appears that along with Russia we now have civil servants in the EU trying to influence our election. If it was one of ours he would be sacked immediately and lose his pension


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know which dungeon the Tories have locked Rees- Mogg up in.

Click to expand...

It's almost as if the tories have realised he is mostly an objectionable person with a huge sense of privilege, completely out of touch with society and who does not resonate with the vast majority of the population. So have hidden him away to basically keep his mouth shut as he's a walking vote loser. 

But be reassured, if the tories win him and many of his fellow types will be back and running the show. 

And before the bots start, yes you can say the same about Diane Abbot in that she's been kept away.


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## patricks148 (Nov 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tories make vague promise on immigration
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50412772

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didn't they make that claim before all they did to implement it was cut UK border force numbers


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It appears that along with Russia we now have civil servants in the EU trying to influence our election. If it was one of ours he would be sacked immediately and lose his pension
		
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Do you honestly think that anyone voting based on their brexit preference, especially leavers, will say 'ooh, I was going to vote for a party that wants to leave but having listened to Tusk I am changing my mind'. All it mostly will do is harden Leavers opinions. 

You can add Clinton, Trump etc to the list if you want, many are chiming in. But at least they are upfront in the way they are doing it, the hidden stuff is much more sinister to me.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do you honestly think that anyone voting based on their brexit preference, especially leavers, will say 'ooh, I was going to vote for a party that wants to leave but having listened to Tusk I am changing my mind'. All it mostly will do is harden Leavers opinions.

You can add Clinton, Trump etc to the list if you want, many are chiming in. But at least they are upfront in the way they are doing it, the hidden stuff is much more sinister to me.
		
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True, but the difference this time it's a paid civil servant who until he retires has a duty of impartiality. He has broken that impartiality and should be sanctioned because of it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

I presume your take on bots are all those that have a different opinion than yours. Are you trying to take over from SILH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Australia has it but voting is mandatory.
		
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Aside - I was in Australia this year throughout the lead-up to the Australian general Election.  The debate was toxic.  It was not at all nice.


SocketRocket said:



			Is it not possible for him to start some form of education that would lead to him having a better chance to improve his lot.  Seems he is painted into a corner at the moment.
		
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He has a good degree in Journalism.  He has had a couple of jobs that paid a bit more - but not a lot - and Sheffield is not exactly awash with well paid jobs.  His work is UK-wide - it is not based in Sheffield where he lives.  It is actually handy for him to live in the 'middle' of the UK - bizarrely (and I did not know this until I just looked) Google Maps gives distance Sheffield to Glasgow as 253 miles - and distance Sheffield to Exeter - 253 miles  

The nature and the availability of work and what he is paid are simply a function of working in the gig economy (zero hours contracts) in the the industry (events and touring artists primarily) - that he is in.  

He is always confident that, in time, he will be able to get bigger 'gigs' with bigger artists and acts - and when that happens he can make a good living.  But his current situation is one that is driven by low pay in a zero hours contracts business.  And it is a nightmare.

(Aside - music touring will be negatively impacted when we leave the EU due to changes in how easily or not bands and artists can move between the countries of the EU and the UK - and also how artists and bands move and sell their merch.  But that is just a moan I get from him - as it is a big worry in the music touring sector).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know which dungeon the Tories have locked Rees- Mogg up in.

Click to expand...

You could try looking in those of Hogwarts...


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## Mudball (Nov 14, 2019)

As always Pie in the face


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's almost as if the tories have realised he is mostly an objectionable person with a huge sense of privilege, completely out of touch with society and who does not resonate with the vast majority of the population. So have hidden him away to basically keep his mouth shut as he's a walking vote loser.

But be reassured, if the tories win him and many of his fellow types will be back and running the show.

And before the bots start, yes you can say the same about Diane Abbot in that she's been kept away.
		
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It's like work ... you can't sack them they are embedded but you give them a window seat and keep them on the periphery ... both should be thanked for their service and then told their is a flight to somewhere else .... Like the Australian jungle with two Geordies waiting to greet them


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## larmen (Nov 14, 2019)

You donâ€™t take a technician to a sales pitch. You introduce them once you got the deal signed ;-) or ;-(


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aside - I was in Australia this year throughout the lead-up to the Australian general Election.  The debate was toxic.  It was not at all nice.


He has a good degree in Journalism.  He has had a couple of jobs that paid a bit more - but not a lot - and Sheffield is not exactly awash with well paid jobs.  His work is UK-wide - it is not based in Sheffield where he lives.  It is actually handy for him to live in the 'middle' of the UK - bizarrely (and I did not know this until I just looked) Google Maps gives distance Sheffield to Glasgow as 253 miles - and distance Sheffield to Exeter - 253 miles 

The nature and the availability of work and what he is paid are simply a function of working in the gig economy (zero hours contracts) in the the industry (events and touring artists primarily) - that he is in.

He is always confident that, in time, he will be able to get bigger 'gigs' with bigger artists and acts - and when that happens he can make a good living.  But his current situation is one that is driven by low pay in a zero hours contracts business.  And it is a nightmare.

(Aside - music touring will be negatively impacted when we leave the EU due to changes in how easily or not bands and artists can move between the countries of the EU and the UK - and also how artists and bands move and sell their merch.  But that is just a moan I get from him - as it is a big worry in the music touring sector).
		
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My Son lived and worked in Sheffield 15 years ago, he lived around the Eccleshall road which I thought was a lovely area.  He worked for a Graphic Design company based in Dore just up the road and did very well there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You could try looking in those of Hogwarts...

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Is his buddy Gove there as well or has he gone off on a 'snorkelling' holiday.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It's like work ... you can't sack them they are embedded but you give them a window seat and keep them on the periphery ... both should be thanked for their service and then told their is a flight to somewhere else .... Like the Australian jungle with two Geordies waiting to greet them 

Click to expand...

Sadly it will probably be the HoL.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

Dominic Grieve on James O'Brien making it very clear that as Chair of the Committee who commissioned and own the Russia Report, he has not had any communication whatsoever from Johnson explaining why he will not sign-off release of the report.  Grieve explains that all sensitive information has been redacted and the Security and Intelligence services are happy for it to be released; and whilst there is a process that accommodates government review of the report before sign-off, the government must first explain to the Committee the reason for requiring the delay - but it has not done so - and Grieve will know.  Grieve is clear that, process-wise, he has no idea why Johnson is refusing to sign-off release.  Grieve also explained that when a new government is in place it is quite possible for the report to never be published.  So why the delay now?  What is Johnson covering up?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dominic Grieve on James O'Brien making it very clear that as Chair of the Committee who commissioned and own the Russia Report, he has not had any communication whatsoever from Johnson explaining why he will not sign-off release of the report.  Grieve explains that all sensitive information has been redacted and the Security and Intelligence services are happy for it to be released; and whilst there is a process that accommodates government review of the report before sign-off, the government must first explain to the Committee the reason for requiring the delay - but it has not done so - and Grieve will know.  Grieve is clear that, process-wise, he has no idea why Johnson is refusing to sign-off release.  Grieve also explained that when a new government is in place it is quite possible for the report to never be published.  So why the delay now?  What is Johnson covering up?
		
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The behaviour could be viewed negatively and a sign of future behaviours ... don't think I could vote for him .. ever irrespective of his manifesto and pledges.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dominic Grieve on James O'Brien making it very clear that as Chair of the Committee who commissioned and own the Russia Report, he has not had any communication whatsoever from Johnson explaining why he will not sign-off release of the report.  Grieve explains that all sensitive information has been redacted and the Security and Intelligence services are happy for it to be released; and whilst there is a process that accommodates government review of the report before sign-off, the government must first explain to the Committee the reason for requiring the delay - but it has not done so - and Grieve will know.  Grieve is clear that, process-wise, he has no idea why Johnson is refusing to sign-off release.  Grieve also explained that when a new government is in place it is quite possible for the report to never be published.  So why the delay now?  What is Johnson covering up?
		
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You may have a point, but Grieve also has an axe to grind. 
Itâ€™s very comfortable sitting here on my fence.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			My Son lived and worked in Sheffield 15 years ago, he lived around the Eccleshall road which I thought was a lovely area.  He worked for a Graphic Design company based in Dore just up the road and did very well there.
		
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Know Eccy Road well as my lad lived in Ranmoor for a while (until he couldn't afford the rent). And know Dore also as we often go out that way to head across the moors back to Chesterfield.  Nice part of Sheffield.  Where he is now - not so great.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You may have a point, but Grieve also has an axe to grind.
Itâ€™s very comfortable sitting here on my fence. 

Click to expand...

He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is.  Why they need to review it further.  Not just that they say they need to.  Not good enough say's Grieve; that's not how it works.

What are they hiding?  Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust? 

Unless he just does not care about trust in government, and is simply focussed on himself and becoming the next Prime Minster, no matter if in that focus he destroys trust further.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is.  Why they need to review it further.  Not just that they say they need to.  Not good enough say's Grieve. 

What are they hiding?  Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust?
		
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I get that and have my concerns over Johnson, but Grieve continually pushing this publicly is not doing himself any favours, there must be other avenues he could go down.


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## ger147 (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He absolutely has an axe to grind - but here he is talking about process and the fact that as Chair of the Committee the government should be telling him why they are not releasing it - what their issue is.  Why they need to review it further.  Not just that they say they need to.  Not good enough say's Grieve; that's not how it works.

What are they hiding?  Johnson will know that a large part of the electorate have very significant trust issues with him, then why act in a way that only goes to confirm that lack of trust? 

Unless he just does not care about trust in government, and is simply focussed on himself and becoming the next Prime Minster, no matter if in that focus he destroys trust further.
		
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He is no longer Chair of the Committee in the same way as he is no longer an MP, merely a candidate. The committee no longer exists and it will likely be around 6 months into the new parliament before the new committee is reformed.

Hence why he was going nuts before Parliament was dissolved trying to get it published.


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## Grant85 (Nov 14, 2019)

Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account. 

There is no admission of the following; 
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc. 

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits. 
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense. 

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do. 

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here. 

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			He is no longer Chair of the Committee in the same way as he is no longer an MP, merely a candidate. The committee no longer exists and it will likely be around 6 months into the new parliament before the new committee is reformed.

Hence why he was going nuts before Parliament was dissolved trying to get it published.
		
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...and with Johnson as PM it is likely that the report will never be published - and I think we should have some concerns over that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account.

There is no admission of the following;
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc.

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits.
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense.

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do.

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here.

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.
		
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Dominic Grieve (yes him again) made the observation that when he gets the train from Beaconsfield (his constituency) into London in the morning he sees the return train full of folk heading out Beaconsfield way to service the town and the area - and they seem to be mainly immigrants 

Besides - I get an impression that the Scottish service industry is now in large part delivered by the Scottish Polish community.


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## drdel (Nov 14, 2019)

IMO there's virtually no pressing reason to publish reports of this nature; it will next to zero impact on the average person and just fuel soundbite journalism. 

While redaction can be used anyone with a brain can usually fill in the blanks e.g removing names of people and organisations may help anonymity but its subject inclusion recognises that the role existed. Just as Banks etc continually  advise customers to avoid putting bits of data into the social networks/ public arena because those with the intent can 'harvest' bits and develop a fuller accurate picture.  We should not underestimate what certain countries collect/harvest and the efforts they employ. 

Of itself this report may appear 'secure' but it could contribute to building information added from other sources. IMO the 'need-to-know' test is the most prudent and I don't think, in this case the average person really needs to know - even if they think they do. In this instance I think Grieve is just playing silly beggars to get attention and keep himself in front of the cameras.


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## drdel (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dominic Grieve (yes him again) made the observation that when he gets the train from Beaconsfield (his constituency) into London in the morning he sees the return train full of folk heading out Beaconsfield way to service the town and the area - and they seem to be mainly immigrants 

Besides - I get an impression that the Scottish service industry is now in large part delivered by the Scottish Polish community.
		
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I guess the trip doesn't happen that often as he lives in France and its often interviewed in the French media now he has the Legion d'honneur .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO there's virtually no pressing reason to publish reports of this nature; it will next to zero impact on the average person and just fuel soundbite journalism.

While redaction can be used anyone with a brain can usually fill in the blanks e.g removing names of people and organisations may help anonymity but its subject inclusion recognises that the role existed. Just as Banks etc continually  advise customers to avoid putting bits of data into the social networks/ public arena because those with the intent can 'harvest' bits and develop a fuller accurate picture.  We should not underestimate what certain countries collect/harvest and the efforts they employ.

Of itself this report may appear 'secure' but it could contribute to building information added from other sources. IMO the 'need-to-know' test is the most prudent and I don't think, in this case the average person really needs to know - even if they think they do. In this instance I think Grieve is just playing silly beggars to get attention and keep himself in front of the cameras.
		
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How do you know that there is no pressing reason?  The reason to publish is that that is what the process determines.  You have come up with all sorts of reasons for not releasing - but the cross-party Committee, and more importantly addressing your concerns -  the Security and Intelligence services have said that it is good to be released...what others then do with the information - well what we as individuals choose to believe is up to the individual - we are not stupid are we?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Re: on immigration. I think it's a complete failing of our democratic system that it seems the 2 main parties feel compelled to make statements on cutting or controlling immigration. The detail of these is so vague they could never realistically be held to account.

There is no admission of the following;
* the vast majority of immigrants are of working age and net contributors to the economy and tax take
* a huge proportion of the non-immigrant population (close to 50%) do not work full time (either too young, too old, can't, don't want to etc)
* the UK needs immigrants to fill gaps in the working population - be this healthcare professionals, tradesmen, seasonal workers, tourism jobs etc.

There is far too much quarter given to the little englander mentality that immigrants strain the public services and take jobs from Brits.
In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is complete nonsense.

Public services are strained because the government have chosen to spend money on other things (HS2, nuclear weapons, tax breaks for the rich, Brexit no deal provision).
And in reality immigrants are doing jobs that locals can't or won't do.

It would be hugely difficult to maintain the UK economy growing positively without immigrants of working age coming and doing jobs, paying taxes and making their life here.

Politicians should educate voters on these matters rather than simply rushing to pander to the ignorance that exists.
		
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So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need. 
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, these people will also grow old and need support, this requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

Thinking that Tories might believe the electorate to be stupid enough to believe that Labour would inflict two referendum upon the UK...they do keep pushing this about Labour.

Tories should either stop implying that, or make clear that only Scotland would be subject (as they would have it) to two referendums.  That many Scots would *welcome *two referendums seems neither here nor there to them,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need.
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, *these people *will also grow old and need support, t*his requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society*. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.
		
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I think that you mean _'_*we all'*

And you are correct in *this* - though not sure why you think the growth would be exponential other than it sounds very worrying - and so wondering what your solution is.  Unless, of course, we all as children start accepting that we have a personal responsibility to look after our parents in their dotage...

I have no figures to prove things one way or the other, but I suspect that some immigrants have a greater culture of responsibility towards their parents in old age than the present day native ethnic population of the UK.

Meanwhile NHS performance stats are today reported as being terrible - the worst ever.  And we are potentially going to be making it harder to hit these targets by cutting back on the immigration that is crucial to the running and delivery of the NHS.  Brilliant.

And you see the big elephant in the room was just pointed out by a caller from the North of England speaking on LBC with Shelagh Fogarty (who is a brilliant broadcaster btw) - and he was absolutely clear than in the north of England; in his community, and with everyone he knows, the Referendum leave vote was all about immigration - he was adamant that as much as others might like to say it wasn't - it just was. Yes - a Leave ranter.  But have a listen to LBC Catch Up Online - just under 2 hrs in.  And that is where I fear we are with so many


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That many Scots would *welcome *two referendums seems neither here nor there to them,
		
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Only if the results go in their favour.  Otherwise they will push for another one.


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## Grant85 (Nov 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats wrong with a points based immigration system that allows those that the country has a need for. I cannot see any benefit for an open door immigration system that allows people to come and live if they dont have skills we need.
Regarding these people being of working age and a net benefit, thats not so good if they strain our already over stretched services like schools, doctors surgeries, housing and hospitals. Also, these people will also grow old and need support, this requires an exponential number of immigrants in the future to service them, this is not sustainable so we need tp find other ways to support our aging society. An overpopulated country does nothing to improve peoples quality of life.
		
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Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling)  to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle). 

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming. 

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services. 

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers. 

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

Eddie Mair is these days extending to fill the 6-7pm slot currently vacated by Nigel Farage.  Most evenings Mair focusses on either discussing a particular election talking-point as suggested by listeners - or with an interview.  And this evening it's an interview with Mark Francois - Deputy Chairman of the ERG and Tory Party candidate for Rayleigh and Wickford.  Francois is always good value, and Mair is a pretty forensic and often rather sceptical interviewer.  A must listen methinks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling)  to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.
		
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Scotland is not over populated. In that respect I imagine it's a lovely place to live. ( But it's too cold for me.)ðŸ˜€
But I do disagree with you.
England has too many people living in it. That has been the case for a long time.
When I was a boy I remember that if my parents needed to see the Doctor then they just went to the surgery that evening and they saw him. No appointments used nor needed.
Now, to see the Dr, I need to phone and it is four weeks.
One reason only. Too many people needing the facility. 
I'll bet that the ratio of Drs per area of land is around the same, if not more.
Same reason why school selection problem is as bad as it is.
Same reason why roads are clogged. Sure, everyone is driving now( whereas before it wasn't everyone) , but nevertheless there are millions more living here, more than births/deaths alone ratio would have accounted for.
I think the Office for National Statistics ( is it? ) would back me up re the rate of population growth.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Know Eccy Road well as my lad lived in Ranmoor for a while (until he couldn't afford the rent). And know Dore also as we often go out that way to head across the moors back to Chesterfield.  Nice part of Sheffield.  Where he is now - not so great.
		
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Chicago ðŸ™‚  He's been there 15 years, married to an American girl, three grandsons. Hes a US citizen now so there for the duration, doing very well, enormous house, good job as a senior manager but works very hard. Winters too cold for me.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling)  to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.
		
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Wow,quite a lot wrong with this!     IMO of course.

I dont believe it should be difficult to get a short term visa for temporary workers, if we need them why should it be. 

You say people will go to other countries but what countries outside the EU have open immigration? I guess not many that people would want to go to.  I think we already have enough low skilled immigrants to cover most of the work in Hotels etc. 
We have seen one of the largest increase in our population ever and most of that driven by births from women not born in this country.  My experience is that they do not work for a few years and go back but stay and have famiiles due to the better welfare in this country.

England is one of the highest populated countries in the world, especially if you remove some of the small countries like Luxembourg from the list.  There is no doubt for me that our services are overloaded due to the short timescale we have seen this population increase.  Its unsustainable, we are adding the equivalent as the population of a city like Leeds each year, no wonder theres a housing shortage and it takes weeks to see a Doctor, let alone schools being overloaded.

I question whether immigrants add national wealth through taxation, I have read that they are at the best cost neutral (the HOL did a study on this and came to this conclusion) and that's questionable, otherwise why are we not getting richer through this additional taxation?

Regarding your comments on regional expenditure, that's another discussion.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Wow - quite a lot wrong with this.

A point based immigration system - ok, would control immigration. But the current situation we have is that someone in Europe can apply for a job to harvest fruit, sheer sheep, work for summer in a hotel or tour company and come the following week to work. People aren't going to apply for a visa and go through all of this assessment to come and work for a few months - so these industries are really going to struggle (and are already struggling)  to get staff and this will push staffing costs up (and make some businesses not worth the hassle).

Also - if we have a system like this, then a lot of higher skilled people will still not bother going through the process and will simply go to other countries where it is easier / more welcoming.

You are also still making the assumption that immigrants strain our services. This is simply not the case. Immigrants pay the taxes that help fund our services, it's been the governments choice not to spend that money on front line services.

Yes - these people will grow old (as will the current British working population of course). But many of the immigrants work for a few years and move back, or settle elsewhere. making it harder for these people in particular will be an economic disaster for this country. And those who make their home here will likely have children to become the future workers / tax payers, and should be entitled to the same benefits and services as the other tax payers.

And this country is far from over-populated - but the SE may be. The other thing the government has not done effectively is encourage people (UK and non-UK) to the right areas. Everything is based around London and the SE, when it is the other regions that require an economic and population boost. The amount spent in transport in London over the past decade could have transformed towns and cities outside of the SE... likewise HS2 and Heathrow expansion are yet more big projects that will suck people, economic activity and capital into the SE, rather than doing more in the other regions. A shameful mismanagement of a nations resources leading to horrendous geographic inequality.
		
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Which has been noticed by the EU and they have been paying back the 38billion to areas that need support.
Money which certain governments would never have paid out.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking that Tories might believe the electorate to be stupid enough to believe that Labour would inflict two referendum upon the UK...they do keep pushing this about Labour.

Tories should either stop implying that, or make clear that only Scotland would be subject (as they would have it) to two referendums.  That many Scots would *welcome *two referendums seems neither here nor there to them,
		
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Is there proof that they want another one as last months polls didn't indicate any great desire for Independence or is it all those Scots living in England pushing for one.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Which has been noticed by the EU and they have been paying back the 38billion to areas that need support.
Money which certain governments would never have paid out.
		
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But we have to ask for that support, the EU dont force it on us, we also have to find 50% of the cost (even though the EU grant money was paid in by us anyway)


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you mean _'_*we all'*

And you are correct in *this* - though not sure why you think the growth would be exponential other than it sounds very worrying - and so wondering what your solution is.  Unless, of course, we all as children start accepting that we have a personal responsibility to look after our parents in their dotage...

I have no figures to prove things one way or the other, but I suspect that some immigrants have a greater culture of responsibility towards their parents in old age than the present day native ethnic population of the UK.

Meanwhile NHS performance stats are today reported as being terrible - the worst ever.  And we are potentially going to be making it harder to hit these targets by cutting back on the immigration that is crucial to the running and delivery of the NHS.  Brilliant.

And you see the big elephant in the room was just pointed out by a caller from the North of England speaking on LBC with Shelagh Fogarty (who is a brilliant broadcaster btw) - and he was absolutely clear than in the north of England; in his community, and with everyone he knows, the Referendum leave vote was all about immigration - he was adamant that as much as others might like to say it wasn't - it just was. Yes - a Leave ranter.  But have a listen to LBC Catch Up Online - just under 2 hrs in.  And that is where I fear we are with so many 

Click to expand...

Why do you believe we will not be able to recruit Doctors from abroad with a points based system. Does Australia or New Zealand have these problems?
Also, do you not agree that poaching Doctors and Nurses from poorer countries who have invested in their training is immoral.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

This is a year old and yes I know itâ€™s from The Guardian, but itâ€™s publishing the results of a study commissioned by Amber Rudd.
Some of the points posted above are found to be incorrect and some correct.
Some will not wish to believe it.
https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...myths-we-now-have-facts-will-we-act-upon-them


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

So Farage has just said it on SkyNews that his candidates were intimidated not to stand and offered jobs as bribes by Number 10.

Arenâ€™t they criminal offences heâ€™s alleging?

He seems to be doing more to help Labour than anyone else


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So Farage has just said it on SkyNews that his candidates were intimidated not to stand and offered jobs as bribes by Number 10.

Arenâ€™t they criminal offences heâ€™s alleging?

He seems to be doing more to help Labour than anyone else
		
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Does Farage actually want Brexit to happen? Once we leave he becomes an irrelevance and loses his job as an MEP. He does seem to be doing all he can to prevent it from happening.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does Farage actually want Brexit to happen? Once we leave he becomes an irrelevance and loses his job as an MEP. He does seem to be doing all he can to prevent it from happening.
		
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Heâ€™s definitely damaging the tories at the moment, Iâ€™m sure somewhere heâ€™s also stated heâ€™s been offered a Peerage to remove candidates, another Criminal Offence.
Either heâ€™s got the knives out for boris or heâ€™s finally lost the plot, these are serious allegations.


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## Beezerk (Nov 14, 2019)

Oooh free broadband for all now say Labour.
Omg, what next ðŸ¤¦


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s definitely damaging the tories at the moment, Iâ€™m sure somewhere heâ€™s also stated heâ€™s been offered a Peerage to remove candidates, another Criminal Offence.
Either heâ€™s got the knives out for boris or heâ€™s finally lost the plot, these are serious allegations.
		
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I'd guess that it's knives out for Boris as it's not a "proper" Brexit while forgetting that compromise is needed due to the close nature of the referendum result. I assume that these allegations will be investigated although unless anything has been written down it becomes a he said, she said situation without enough evidence to proceed.

If we get a remain alliance (Labour/Lib Dem/SNP) with a majority in the HoC then Brexit isn't going to happen. Farage will then be stirring up the bad feeling and creating further division in the country while keeping himself front and center.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Oooh free broadband for all now say Labour.
Omg, what next ðŸ¤¦
		
Click to expand...

All in holidays to North Korea


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Oooh free broadband for all now say Labour.
Omg, what next ðŸ¤¦
		
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Well that Â£20 a month I'll save will certainly make up for the thousands of pounds I'll be out of pocket if they raise corporation tax to 25/26%.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 14, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Oooh free broadband for all now say Labour.
Omg, what next ðŸ¤¦
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195099915946512384


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## Beezerk (Nov 14, 2019)

Wonder if we'll get BT sports for free as well âš½


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...-every-20883859.amp?__twitter_impression=true


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## spongebob59 (Nov 14, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195105744783364101


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## spongebob59 (Nov 14, 2019)

â€œHello? BT? Iâ€™d like someone to install broadband.â€ â€œNo problem, comrade. We can get an engineer to you on 20 March 2033.â€ â€œGreat! Can you make it the afternoon? I have the gas company coming in the morning.â€


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## jp5 (Nov 15, 2019)

Fair play to him, better public services paid for by taxing Facebook and Google what they should be paying anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Is there proof that they want another one as last months polls didn't indicate any great desire for Independence or is it all those Scots living in England pushing for one.
		
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Youâ€™ll have read that I said â€˜many Scotsâ€™ - not â€˜all Scotsâ€™ - not â€˜most Scotsâ€™ - just â€˜many Scotsâ€™.  And rUK neednâ€™t worry as precisely zero rUK voters will be subjected to Labourâ€™s two referendums. 

Makes you wonder why the Tories keep flogging this to the UK-wide electorate - well of course we know why - because the Brendas in Bristol wonâ€™t like the sound of it even though it is just not true for her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Heâ€™s definitely damaging the tories at the moment, Iâ€™m sure somewhere heâ€™s also stated heâ€™s been offered a Peerage to remove candidates, another Criminal Offence.
Either heâ€™s got the knives out for boris or heâ€™s finally lost the plot, these are serious allegations.
		
Click to expand...

And my favourite Tory fall guy - Cleverly - denies it.  Well someoneâ€™s telling porkies.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			All in holidays to North Korea 

Click to expand...

Not a bad strategy, will keep them busy ... have you heard a peep out of Argentina since Malbec is in high demand ?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And my favourite Tory fall guy - Cleverly - denies it.  Well someoneâ€™s telling porkies.
		
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Oh gosh what a choice a Tory liar or Farage ?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195099915946512384

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Get on to the mobile networks as well .. 3g and 4g only in London and inconsistent everywhere else ... totally pointless until it's sorted. If this will sort them out then yippeeee ! 

Looks like a good manifesto to me. But then if you look at it like this it's making services for all instead of an elite few!
If they form a government with the Libs and the Libs don't "clegg it up" we could have a really good situation!


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2019)

+1


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195266785051893765


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195256628922273793


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

Looking forward to the next round of promises/announcements.  I'm sure abolishing cancer by 2025, every family getting a free 2 week holiday on the moon and snow/ice being banned would be really popular with the voters.  Oh and a free car for every 17/18 year old when they pass their test with free insurance for the first 3 years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Looking forward to the next round of promises/announcements.  I'm sure abolishing cancer by 2025, every family getting a free 2 week holiday on the moon and snow/ice being banned would be really popular with the voters.  Oh and a free car for every 17/18 year old when they pass their test with free insurance for the first 3 years.
		
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Are these from the tory party?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

Free high speed wifi in cities, towns and villages would be a brilliant start.  Especially for towns this would provide a positive boost to encourage us all back into the centre of towns, to shop and spend our leisure time. Let's be having it.  Happy to contribute some of my tax to pay for this.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Are these from the  party?

Click to expand...

The Tories couldn't make promises like these. As they'll be the next government, they'll have to have a go at delivering what the promise unlike fringe/looney parties who can say what they like as they'll never be elected...ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The Tories couldn't make promises like these. As they'll be the next government, they'll have to have a go at delivering what the promise unlike fringe/looney parties who can say what they like as they'll never be elected...ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
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The Tories aren't a loony party?  yeh right


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The Tories couldn't make promises like these. As they'll be the next government, *they'll have to have a go at delivering what the promise* unlike fringe/looney parties who can say what they like as they'll never be elected...ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...07793/no-homes-built-under-flagship-2015-tory


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...07793/no-homes-built-under-flagship-2015-tory 

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I said they would have to try, not actually deliver. They are politicians after all...


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Tories aren't a loony party?  yeh right 

Click to expand...

Just you keep day dreaming about your town centre wifi and don't drink more than 2 glasses of Malbec before 12pm...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Looking forward to the next round of promises/announcements.  I'm sure abolishing cancer by 2025, every family getting a free 2 week holiday on the moon and snow/ice being banned would be really popular with the voters.  Oh and a free car for every 17/18 year old when they pass their test with free insurance for the first 3 years.
		
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And a free green car for all motorists for all those who have to switch over from fossil fuelled cars.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The Tories couldn't make promises like these. As they'll be the next government, they'll have to have a go at delivering what the promise unlike fringe/looney parties who can say what they like as they'll never be elected...ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

My concern with them is the dodging of costings, itâ€™s easy to promise nothing and claim youâ€™ve stuck to your guns. Theyâ€™ve already back peddled on pledges they made in their 3 manifestoâ€™s since they came in in 2010.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195256628922273793

Click to expand...

I don't think it's a bad idea but I do think that for many it's a waste of money. Not everyone wants or needs fibre broadband. My mum and stepdad use their internet to check emails and search for holidays. And I would guess that 90% of their village is the same. Giving them ultra fast broadband would be like giving a bicycle to a fish. A complete waste of time and money. It would cost millions just to connect their small village and there are thousands of similar villages around the country. Fair enough in towns and cities but for outlying villages the costs would far outweigh the benefits.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			My concern with them is the dodging of costings, itâ€™s easy to promise nothing and claim youâ€™ve stuck to your guns. Theyâ€™ve already back peddled on pledges they made in their 3 manifestoâ€™s since they came in in 2010.
		
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You're more than justified to hold those concerns, and please don't misunderstand, I an NOT a campaigner for the Conservative party.

But the guff Labour have come out with over the last week or so, they might as well be promising to make Santa real, paint every house in the UK purple and teach Diane Abbot to count. It's complete and utter fantasy/nonsense, IMO of course...


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Free high speed wifi in cities, towns and villages would be a brilliant start.  Especially for towns this would provide a positive boost to encourage us all back into the centre of towns, to shop and spend our leisure time. Let's be having it.  Happy to contribute some of my tax to pay for this.
		
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Did you read the details, not until 2030. I'll get my todger out on the Tyne Bridge if Labour do get into power and actually implement this policy.
Smacks of desperation, it's embarrassing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You're more than justified to hold those concerns, and please don't misunderstand, I an NOT a campaigner for the Conservative party.

But the guff Labour have come out with over the last week or so, they might as well be promising to make Santa real, paint every house in the UK purple and teach Diane Abbot to count. It's complete and utter fantasy/nonsense, IMO of course...
		
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And in all honesty until the fully costed Manifesto is published and analysed thatâ€™s how Iâ€™m taking these soundbytes.
My other concern is other parties not singing their positives, but concentrating on finding negatives with others.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Did you read the details, not until 2030. I'll get my todger out on the Tyne Bridge if Labour do get into power and actually implement this policy.
Smacks of desperation, it's embarrassing.
		
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Why is it desperation, there are other Countries with this aspiration and even in the link I posted last night there was a quote from a research institute saying how it could benefit industries etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't think it's a bad idea but I do think that for many it's a waste of money. Not everyone wants or needs fibre broadband. My mum and stepdad use their internet to check emails and search for holidays. And I would guess that 90% of their village is the same. Giving them ultra fast broadband would be like giving a bicycle to a fish. A complete waste of time and money. It would cost millions just to connect their small village and there are thousands of similar villages around the country. Fair enough in towns and cities but for outlying villages the costs would far outweigh the benefits.
		
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So a cable is fitted (or whatever) and you donâ€™t plug in, what if the house is sold in the future, theyâ€™re not saying everyone will use or need it, but will have the facility.


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is it desperation, there are other Countries with this aspiration and even in the link I posted last night there was a quote from a research institute saying how it could benefit industries etc.
		
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They're going to outspend the Tories on the NHS, the free WiFi joke. They know they're going to get annihilated in the GE and are trying cheap shot policies to buy votes. Nothing wrong with that it happens all the time, but free WiFi, really?


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## chrisd (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is it desperation, there are other Countries with this aspiration and even in the link I posted last night there was a quote from a research institute saying how it could benefit industries etc.
		
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But why would anyone vote for something that even under the fixed term Parliament act would be still, at least, 2 general elections away?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But why would anyone vote for something that even under the fixed term Parliament act would be still, at least, 2 general elections away?
		
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Sorry Chris, but arenâ€™t a lot of the Brexit policies based outside of 5 years? Goes both ways mate, they all do it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			They're going to outspend the Tories on the NHS, the free WiFi joke. They know they're going to get annihilated in the GE and are trying cheap shot policies to buy votes. Nothing wrong with that it happens all the time, but free WiFi, really?
		
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Isnâ€™t that what Australia is currently under going? Probably over initial budget, but some Countries see the benefits.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Isnâ€™t that what Australia is currently under going? Probably over initial budget, but some Countries see the benefits.
		
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Some guy was talking about this on the radio this morning, they started their roll out in 2008 and its till not finished.


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Isnâ€™t that what Australia is currently under going? Probably over initial budget, but some Countries see the benefits.
		
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Not sure mate, I do know there's hell on about the internet over there though. A new fibre thing got rolled out and it's supposed to be garbage. They don't have Sky or satellite TV down there iirc, TV is generally through the internet so it's a different set up.


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## chrisd (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Chris, but arenâ€™t a lot of the Brexit policies based outside of 5 years? Goes both ways mate, they all do it.
		
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The Brexit policies will last more than 5 years but will be implemented as soon as the trade deal is agreed which should be by the end of 2020 but new GE manifesto policies that will not be implemented for 10 years are not deliverable as the party putting them forward may not be in power  by then and, of course, the cabinet would likely be wholly different anyway even if they were in power.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So a cable is fitted (or whatever) and you donâ€™t plug in, what if the house is sold in the future, theyâ€™re not saying everyone will use or need it, but will have the facility.
		
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So why spend Â£20-100 billion (depending on which figures you look at) to provide everyone with something that not everyone will use or needs? Why not target those areas that do actually need it or will use it? Are the benefits really that great to justify the cost? What can the average person get from super fast fibre broadband that they don't get from standard broadband?


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## drdel (Nov 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Brexit policies will last more than 5 years but will be implemented as soon as the trade deal is agreed which should be by the end of 2020 but new GE manifesto policies that will not be implemented for 10 years are not deliverable as the party putting them forward may not be in power  by then and, of course, the cabinet would likely be wholly different anyway even if they were in power.
		
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And by then there could be statues to Corbyn and McDonnell in Parliament Square across from the new Politburo HQ


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Brexit policies will last more than 5 years but will be implemented as soon as the trade deal is agreed which should be by the end of 2020 but new GE manifesto policies that will not be implemented for 10 years are not deliverable as the party putting them forward may not be in power  by then and, of course, the cabinet would likely be wholly different anyway even if they were in power.
		
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In the summer boris has already called for full broadband provision for every home by 2025, isnâ€™t that outside his 5yr term? Every party looks to the future, look at the climate control agreements.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So why spend Â£20-100 billion (depending on which figures you look at) to provide everyone with something that not everyone will use or needs? Why not target those areas that do actually need it or will use it? Are the benefits really that great to justify the cost? What can the average person get from super fast fibre broadband that they don't get from standard broadband?
		
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Who knows what will be needed where and by whom in 10-20yrs, should we just stand still?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Just you keep day dreaming about your town centre wifi and don't drink more than 2 glasses of Malbec before 12pm...
		
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Surely free metropolitan area and 'community' wifi would attract folks into town centres - where attraction to counter the internet and out-of-town is essential.  I found it a great benefit when it travelling in Australia and New Zealand. So why can't we have it in the UK?  Internet access is the lifeblood of commerce and social communication - so let's have it freely available for all - not all of us can afford it, not all of us have mobile carrier signals up to the mark everywhere - but we all spend money.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Some guy was talking about this on the radio this morning, they started their roll out in 2008 and its till not finished.
		
Click to expand...

Australia is quite a big place...and some communities are rather remote...but it was fantastically useful when we were travelling out there and in NZ earlier this year.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			And by then there could be statues to Corbyn and McDonnell in Parliament Square across from the new Politburo HQ
		
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The russians are funding boris and nigel arenâ€™t they?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The russians are funding boris and nigel arenâ€™t they?

Click to expand...

Some might suggest that until we see the 'report' we might reasonably assume that they have been. 

I thought Mark Francois was interesting (if that's at all possible with him) when questioned on this by Eddie Mair yesterday evening as, evasive as he was - he clearly felt that Grieve's insistence on getting the report released was political as it *would *damage the Tory Party.  Really?  What does he know that we have not yet been told?

Release the Report.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who knows what will be needed where and by whom in 10-20yrs, should we just stand still?
		
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No we shouldn't, but you're saying we should spend all this money based on guesswork of what might be needed in 10-20 years time. My question is, how is free fibre broadband (for everyone) going to "fire up the economy, give a massive boost to productivity and bring half a million people back into work" which is the claim. What are the benefits to the average person of this policy?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The russians are funding boris and nigel arenâ€™t they?

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some might suggest that until we see the 'report' we might reasonably assume that they have been.
		
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All donations to the Tory party are in the public domain so if you're really that interested then it's easy to find out. I think that the presenter on 5 live this morning said that 11 Russian oligarchs had donated to the Tories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			All donations to the Tory party are in the public domain so if you're really that interested then it's easy to find out. I think that the presenter on 5 live this morning said that 11 Russian oligarchs had donated to the Tories.
		
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Thankyou - didn't hear that.  I remain interested in what's in 'the report'.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely free metropolitan area and 'community' wifi would attract folks into town centres - where attraction to counter the internet and out-of-town is essential.  I found it a great benefit when it travelling in Australia and New Zealand. So why can't we have it in the UK?  Internet access is the lifeblood of commerce and social communication - so let's have it freely available for all - not all of us can afford it, not all of us have mobile carrier signals up to the mark everywhere - but we all spend money.
		
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You can open another bottle of Malbec now, it's 12pm.


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## IanM (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			All donations to the Tory party are in the public domain so if you're really that interested then it's easy to find out. I think that the presenter on 5 live this morning said that 11 Russian oligarchs had donated to the Tories.
		
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I guess the Russians had to suffer the mass murders and poverty of 70 years of Soviet Marxism.   Those now in London don't want it introduced here!


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			All donations to the Tory party are in the public domain so if you're really that interested then it's easy to find out. I think that the presenter on 5 live this morning said that 11 Russian oligarchs had donated to the Tories.
		
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And, by law, all donations of over Â£500 are from UK residents or UK based companies. It won't stop someone creating a UK business to channel funding through but it will be pretty obvious, and a weapon that could be used by other parties.

The Electoral Commission scrutinises the accounts of every party and, although these allegations are made at each election, there's never been any proven. Lets wait and see...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195329635296391168


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## MegaSteve (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So why spend Â£20-100 billion (depending on which figures you look at) to provide everyone with something that not everyone will use or needs? Why not target those areas that do actually need it or will use it? Are the benefits really that great to justify the cost? What can the average person get from super fast fibre broadband that they don't get from standard broadband?
		
Click to expand...

Pretty cheap, I'd say, compared to the cost of HS2...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 15, 2019)

Full page ad in the local paper this week reminding Boris's constituents on his promise he made, to them, on the night of his election victory in May 2015...

 "I will lie down with you in front of those bulldozers and stop the construction of that third runway"


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## robinthehood (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't think it's a bad idea but I do think that for many it's a waste of money. Not everyone wants or needs fibre broadband. My mum and stepdad use their internet to check emails and search for holidays. And I would guess that 90% of their village is the same. Giving them ultra fast broadband would be like giving a bicycle to a fish. A complete waste of time and money. It would cost millions just to connect their small village and there are thousands of similar villages around the country. Fair enough in towns and cities but for outlying villages the costs would far outweigh the benefits.
		
Click to expand...

Its future proofing.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 15, 2019)

not been on here for a bit, struggling for a connection.

That aside. i wonder how many people have actually made up there minds on how they are voting and if the next four weeks is just gonna be verbal diahorrea.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			not been on here for a bit, struggling for a connection.

That aside. i wonder how many people have actually made up there minds on how they are voting and if the next four weeks is just gonna be verbal diahorrea.
		
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You could always put up a poll...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No we shouldn't, but you're saying we should spend all this money based on guesswork of what might be needed in 10-20 years time. *My question is, how is free fibre broadband (for everyone) going to "fire up the economy, give a massive boost to productivity and bring half a million people back into work" which is the claim*. *What are the benefits to the average person of this policy*?
		
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Whilst you have to take all claims with a pinch of salt, there is an argument that access to decent broadband is becoming an essential service.  And increasingly peoples ability to participate in society, work, access information, shop and access entertainment in the house and rant at people on social media or golf forums will rely on a fast broadband connections. And if you don't have it you will increasingly be marginalized.  If you want an example of the benefits of fast broadband for me and many others in my company it means I can work from home easily, have virtual meetings using video with anyone in the world which means I have a much better work life balance, less stress, able to see the family more, don't pollute the environment when commuting to work, save god knows how much on fuel etc etc. Plus the porn streams quicker.

Other countries are way ahead of us with their broadband provision for the whole country, not just in big urban areas where the limited number of providers can make big profits for their shareholders.  And whilst the exact details may have not been completely thought through as we are in election time, the principle to me is a good thing and I'd even go as far as saying that easily accessible and affordable fast broadband for all will have a much more positive impact on the vast majority of our lives than exiting the EU ever will will.  But that's a different thread.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could always put up a poll...
		
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i did think that, but theres a problem. am thick.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 15, 2019)

My problem with it re free internet is this. who is gonna pay the Â£20 Billion. The tax payer. So ok. Non tax payers,non workers etc etc. get it for nowt. So how is them thats not earning, working, contributing nothing to society gonna help stimulate the economy. its not. sure they can log onto Facebook and show me pictures of there dinner quicker, and talk rammel on golf forums, but suspect thats not Comrade Jezzas reason for free wifi. Is there a problem with coverage in this country, obviously. but i fail to see how me paying for it through my taxes should be the solution. How about insisting companies like BT, SKY, EE, VODAPHONE etc etc are made to provide that service out of the Billions they earn each year.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			My problem with it re free internet is this. who is gonna pay the Â£20 Billion. The tax payer. So ok. Non tax payers,non workers etc etc. get it for nowt. So how is them thats not earning, working, contributing nothing to society gonna help stimulate the economy. its not. sure they can log onto Facebook and show me pictures of there dinner quicker, and talk rammel on golf forums, but suspect thats not Comrade Jezzas reason for free wifi. Is there a problem with coverage in this country, obviously. but i fail to see how me paying for it through my taxes should be the solution. How about insisting companies like BT, SKY, EE, VODAPHONE etc etc are made to provide that service out of the Billions they earn each year.
		
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I think the idea of UK free UK wide BB is a great idea. Not sure it should be via a nationalised company.

1) Pay for nationalisation - wonder who pays for that.
2) Tax payer than pays the annual running costs etc.

Oh look, its no longer free.


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## drdel (Nov 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst you have to take all claims with a pinch of salt, there is an argument that access to decent broadband is becoming an essential service.  And increasingly peoples ability to participate in society, work, access information, shop and access entertainment in the house and rant at people on social media or golf forums will rely on a fast broadband connections. And if you don't have it you will increasingly be marginalized.  If you want an example of the benefits of fast broadband for me and many others in my company it means I can work from home easily, have virtual meetings using video with anyone in the world which means I have a much better work life balance, less stress, able to see the family more, don't pollute the environment when commuting to work, save god knows how much on fuel etc etc. Plus the porn streams quicker.

Other countries are way ahead of us with their broadband provision for the whole country, not just in big urban areas where the limited number of providers can make big profits for their shareholders.  And whilst the exact details may have not been completely thought through as we are in election time, the principle to me is a good thing and I'd even go as far as saying that easily accessible and affordable fast broadband for all will have a much more positive impact on the vast majority of our lives than exiting the EU ever will will.  But that's a different thread.
		
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. The benefits of access to homes by medical videos links, police and security, gas/electric repair planning etc. etc are huge, and as you say the possible reduction in daily commuter traffic could be very significant. Carefully thought through (there's the rub) its a good idea.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the idea of UK free UK wide BB is a great idea. Not sure it should be via a nationalised company.

1) Pay for nationalisation - wonder who pays for that.
2) Tax payer than pays the annual running costs etc.

Oh look, its no longer free.
		
Click to expand...

Heard 7bn annual costs to factor in.

  Great but if all the other schemes come in too the infrastructure will be on a 4 day week and probably on strike for the most part of them


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2019)

Ref the broadband. First off, I think the promise is embarrassingly bad. Secondly, isn't 5g supposed to take over from wired broadband? If that network does as is promised, big if, then wires underground becomes old tech.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Heard 7bn annual costs to factor in.

  Great but if all the other schemes come in too the infrastructure will be on a 4 day week and probably on strike for the most part of them 

Click to expand...

Will my local pub be on a four day week ðŸ˜•


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the idea of UK free UK wide BB is a great idea. Not sure it should be via a nationalised company.

1) Pay for nationalisation - wonder who pays for that.
2) Tax payer than pays the annual running costs etc.

Oh look, its no longer free.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like free school dinners, someone pays for them along the line.


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## IanM (Nov 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A bit like free school dinners, someone pays for them along the line.
		
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...the someone else is those nasty rich folk over there !    Trouble is, their definition of "rich folk"  is anyone earning over Â£25k pa!  

We all know we are going to get pre-election bull-pooh promises from all of them.  But I wish they stood up to basic scrutiny.  (eg free fibre BB,  that will almost certainly be obsolete by 2030, Â£15 ph for jobs that will disappear if you have to pay Â£15ph for them. )

In this, Labour are less good at lying than the Tories!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst you have to take all claims with a pinch of salt, there is an argument that access to decent broadband is becoming an essential service.  And increasingly peoples ability to *participate in society, work, access information, shop and access entertainment in the house and rant at people on social media or golf forums will rely on a fast broadband connections.* And if you don't have it you will increasingly be marginalized.  If you want an example of the benefits of fast broadband for me and many others in my company it *means I can work from home easily, have virtual meetings using video with anyone in the world* which means I have a much better work life balance, less stress, able to see the family more, don't pollute the environment when commuting to work, save god knows how much on fuel etc etc. Plus the porn streams quicker.

Other countries are way ahead of us with their broadband provision for the whole country, not just in big urban areas where the limited number of providers can make big profits for their shareholders.  And whilst the exact details may have not been completely thought through as we are in election time, the principle to me is a good thing and I'd even go as far as saying that easily accessible and affordable fast broadband for all will have a much more positive impact on the vast majority of our lives than exiting the EU ever will will.  But that's a different thread.
		
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RE: the first bit in bold - how many of those are essential and worth spending what could end up being over Â£100 billion on?

RE: both bits in bold - is there anything in the things you've listed that can't be done with regular/standard broadband and actually requires fibre broadband? Why will people "rely on a fast broadband connection" when all of what you've listed can be done on standard broadband?

I occasionally have to transfer data to one of the offices that I've been working for. On a big job this could be 300+GB in total. I'm on standard broadband at home and can transfer the data in an hour or two. If they need anything iquicker than that I'll separate that bit out and send it first for them to look at and then send the rest. I can also use my current broadband provision for video calls/Skype etc without issues. These things don't need fibre broadband and I would guess that for over 95% of the population this will be true. Why not focus on getting decent standard broadband to everyone rather than spending however many extra billions it will cost to go full fibre? Whenever I speak to someone that has fibre broadband they normally tell me how great it is because they can download a film in X seconds. Well great, but do we as a country need to spend Â£100 billion (+/-) so that 95% of the population can save 90 seconds downloading a film?


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## Mudball (Nov 15, 2019)

Free BB is a great sound bite.  Given that BB is now a utility; would JC please offer free Water and Gas too..  

On a different note.. once 5G roll out start, you wont have to worry about digging up roads to deliver free BB, you can (in theory) roll out mobile BB very quickly.


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## drdel (Nov 15, 2019)

As Bercow would have said...the eyes have it, the eyes have it...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			RE: the first bit in bold - how many of those are essential and worth spending what could end up being over Â£100 billion on?

RE: both bits in bold - is there anything in the things you've listed that can't be done with regular/standard broadband and actually requires fibre broadband? Why will people "rely on a fast broadband connection" when all of what you've listed can be done on standard broadband?

I occasionally have to transfer data to one of the offices that I've been working for. On a big job this could be 300+GB in total. I'm on standard broadband at home and can transfer the data in an hour or two. If they need anything iquicker than that I'll separate that bit out and send it first for them to look at and then send the rest. I can also use my current broadband provision for video calls/Skype etc without issues. These things don't need fibre broadband and I would guess that for over 95% of the population this will be true. Why not focus on getting decent standard broadband to everyone rather than spending however many extra billions it will cost to go full fibre? Whenever I speak to someone that has fibre broadband they normally tell me how great it is because they can download a film in X seconds. Well great, but do we as a country need to spend Â£100 billion (+/-) so that 95% of the population can save 90 seconds downloading a film?
		
Click to expand...

To me they are all essential.

As others have said its about future proofing. In 10 years time Skype and what we use the Internet for now will be about as relevant as Friends Reunited is now.

And as for waiting for 2 hours to transfer that data then imagine how much more productive you would be if you could do that in 5 minutes and didn't have to spend time splitting files up. Or how any employers would choose where to base themselves, in areas where it takes 2 hours to transfer data or 5 minutes.

If all you think the major benefit is is to quickly download a film then to me that is kind of missing the point of how the Internet will be so integrated into society in 10 years time.

Type in 'growth of Internet use' into Google and look at the trend. That ain't going to slow down any time soon.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To me they are all essential.

As others have said its about future proofing. In 10 years time Skype and what we use the Internet for now will be about as relevant as Friends Reunited is now.

And as for waiting for 2 hours to transfer that data then imagine how much more productive you would be if you could do that in 5 minutes and didn't have to spend time splitting files up. Or how any employers would choose where to base themselves, in areas where it takes 2 hours to transfer data or 5 minutes.

If all you think the major benefit is is to quickly download a film then to me that is kind of missing the point of how the Internet will be so integrated into society in 10 years time.

Type in 'growth of Internet use' into Google and look at the trend. That ain't going to slow down any time soon.
		
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If online shopping, entertainment and posting on forums are "essential" to you then IMO you need to reevaluate your life. How can it be considered as future proofing when we have no idea if there will be technology available in 10 or 20 years time that supersedes the use of fibre broadband?

Personally I would be no more productive if I could transfer the data in 5 minutes - but that might just be the area I work in. My normal modus operandi is to post a hard drive back to the office with all the data on when I get home from ajob. Uploading via FTP is around 5% of the jobs I go on and even then it's never really that time critical. In fact, I can't think of any situation or industry where decisions are so critical that they depend on rapidly transferring large quantities of data.

I'm happy to accept that I might be a luddite or that I just don't get it but I can't see why in 99% of cases standard broadband isn't good enough for what's needed and that fibre broadband is an unnecessary expense for very little or no gain.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			As Bercow would have said...the eyes have it, the eyes have it...






Click to expand...

Please dont let him kiss me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			...the someone else is those nasty rich folk over there !    Trouble is, their definition of "rich folk"  is anyone earning over Â£25k pa! 

We all know we are going to get pre-election bull-pooh promises from all of them.  But I wish they stood up to basic scrutiny.  (eg free fibre BB,  that will almost certainly be obsolete by 2030, Â£15 ph for jobs that will disappear if you have to pay Â£15ph for them. )

In this, Labour are less good at lying than the Tories!  

Click to expand...

The UK has a massive rich poor divide. 
It is about time a levelling happened to put us in line with what is considered normal in most civilised countries.
Best to do it peacefully before it reaches the stage of riots and civil disorder.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK has a massive rich poor divide.
It is about time a levelling happened to put us in line with what is considered normal in most civilised countries.
Best to do it peacefully before it reaches the stage of riots and civil disorder.
		
Click to expand...

Bubonic plague?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If online shopping, entertainment and posting on forums are "essential" to you then IMO you need to reevaluate your life. How can it be considered as future proofing when we have no idea if there will be technology available in 10 or 20 years time that supersedes the use of fibre broadband?

Personally I would be no more productive if I could transfer the data in 5 minutes - but that might just be the area I work in. My normal modus operandi is to post a hard drive back to the office with all the data on when I get home from ajob. Uploading via FTP is around 5% of the jobs I go on and even then it's never really that time critical. In fact, I can't think of any situation or industry where decisions are so critical that they depend on rapidly transferring large quantities of data.

I'm happy to accept that I might be a luddite or that I just don't get it but I can't see why in 99% of cases standard broadband isn't good enough for what's needed and that fibre broadband is an unnecessary expense for very little or no gain.
		
Click to expand...

Going to need the bb speed every where to utilise automated systems, self driving vehicles, communications between signals etc. 
The other thing is we donâ€™t get fast as quickly as we get bigger. So the current level is not enough. Itâ€™s under stress as are areas of settlement.. de centralise and we help ourselves.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 16, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50441707

So er what ares Labours policies exactly. We know some of them. But as I read it. Delegates passed motions at conferance re Labours future policy on migration etc. Now labours senior bigwigs are discussing whether to have them in there manifesto. . What's the point in having a vote if it's not listened to. Oh hang on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 16, 2019)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Image110.jpg

Good old Jeremy 'doing a Boris'.
Naughty step for the London based speech writers.

https://reversedpolarity.co/a-name-for-what-you-lose/
This is a decent read for folks outwith Scotland who think they know what is going on in Scotland


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## spongebob59 (Nov 16, 2019)

Tree wars now


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 16, 2019)

Met Police now investigating the Tory party on the Brexit candidates bribe scandal.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://reversedpolarity.co/a-name-for-what-you-lose/
This is a decent read for folks outwith Scotland who think they know what is going on in Scotland

Click to expand...

Think you are mixing us up with people who dont have better things to read.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 16, 2019)

https://reaction.life/how-corbyn-go...alisation-numbers-wrong-by-a-factor-of-three/


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## harpo_72 (Nov 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://reaction.life/how-corbyn-go...alisation-numbers-wrong-by-a-factor-of-three/

Click to expand...

Really? Looks all very hypothetical anyway. Plus it doesnâ€™t make a note of the taxes that will be deployed on FB, Amazon etc ...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://reaction.life/how-corbyn-go...alisation-numbers-wrong-by-a-factor-of-three/

Click to expand...

Parties making absolute BS claims about how much they will spend or how much the oppositions BS promises will cost shocker. 

It's just one steady stream of absolute BS spending claims as that is what we have been reduced to. Poling has shown that the electorate wants to see spending increased so it's open season on how much you can say you'll spend. Then open season on someone else saying that the figures don't add up.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 16, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Really? Looks all very hypothetical anyway. Plus it doesnâ€™t make a note of the taxes that will be deployed on FB, Amazon etc ...
		
Click to expand...

Peston tweeted it so I assume he did his research, btw what makes you think the like a of fb and amazo n will stump upnthere tax ?? Their more likely to run further away.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Parties making absolute BS claims about how much they will spend or how much the oppositions BS promises will cost shocker.

It's just one steady stream of absolute BS spending claims as that is what we have been reduced to. Poling has shown that the electorate wants to see spending increased so it's open season on how much you can say you'll spend. Then open season on someone else saying that the figures don't add up.
		
Click to expand...

Then after another decade of austerity.


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Peston tweeted it so I assume he did his research, btw what makes you think the like a of fb and amazo n will stump upnthere tax ?? Their more likely to run further away.
		
Click to expand...

Because if someone did actually have the balls to make them pay what they owe they would not run a mile because they'd still be turning a massive profit. They pay feck all because they get away with it not because they're doing us a massive favour.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 17, 2019)

Free dentistry now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195842123133857792


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## Beezerk (Nov 17, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn on Andrew Marr, I can't quite put my finger on it but he comes across as a really horrible person. Arrogant and condescending.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Free dentistry now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195842123133857792

Click to expand...

At the minute it looks as though Jeremy is pulling ahead of Boris in the "Who's got the bigger magic money tree" competition.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2019)

Nobody even slightly terrified of the idea of a socialist state run internet? 

Also when will people realise that there is no such thing as â€œfreeâ€ ... the term â€œfreeâ€ means taxing the working man/woman even more, and I know nutcase McDonnell thinks fb and Amazon will pay for everything (They seem to be Labourâ€™s magic money tree because that idiot on question time reckons they will pay for the nhs too!) but the reality of Comrade Corbynâ€™s socialist utopia would be hell on earth for the real working class.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

Just to calm down the zealots a slightly.........it is not free dental care it is free dental checks.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Jeremy Corbyn on Andrew Marr, I can't quite put my finger on it but he comes across as a really horrible person. Arrogant and condescending.
		
Click to expand...

Really 
Compared to Johnson he is coming across as a consummate professional.


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## drdel (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to calm down the zealots a slightly.........it is not free dental care it is free dental checks.
		
Click to expand...

....as the first step...!


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## patricks148 (Nov 17, 2019)

just imagine the labour party decide to launch free health care for all..... the torys would call it health communism ...


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			just imagine the labour party decide to launch free health care for all..... the torys would call it health communism ...

Click to expand...

NHS is gonna cost Â£139 Billion next year. Hardly free is it?... I know folk North of the border are keen on freebies but these things do actually cost real money.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			NHS is gonna cost Â£139 Billion next year. Hardly free is it?... I know folk North of the border are keen on freebies but these things do actually cost real money.
		
Click to expand...

It is free at the point of use which means that people who are ill and cannot afford treatment get the same treatment as people who are extremely rich and could afford to pay for the treatment they receive but choose not to.
Seems reasonable to me or do you think the rich folk are being unreasonable and we should just let the poor folk die.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is free at the point of use which means that people who are ill and cannot afford treatment get the same treatment as people who are extremely rich and could afford to pay for the treatment they receive but choose not to.
Seems reasonable to me or do you think the rich folk are being unreasonable and we should just let the poor folk die.
		
Click to expand...

I happen to think the NHS is one of the greatest things this country has...Itâ€™s world class, (In spite of the fact it is massively abused and often used for the wrong things)...But if it was proposed tomorrow as a new idea it would never get off the ground.  Look at obamacare.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Met Police now investigating the Tory party on the Brexit candidates bribe scandal.
		
Click to expand...

You are right Doon - what widdecombe and others in the Brexit party are talking about is attempted bribery by the tories.

Weâ€™ll no doubt be hearing the gop defence of trump - no bribes accepted so nothing to see here.ðŸ™„

At some point folks who continue to ignore or excuse all of Johnsonâ€™s lack of understanding, his evasion, lies, deceits and dissembling (see his one hour of all of the aforementioned when interviewed by Rachel Burden on R5Live) are going to have to just come out of their denial and decide what is right. Johnson and his crew are just no longer funny.

I used to think that the conservatives had at their core some decency and values - and leading people I might not agree with but could respect. But that was then and Iâ€™m struggling now.  The decent conservatives are still out there but I am no longer hearing that voice.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right Doon - what widdecombe and others in the Brexit party are talking about is attempted bribery by the tories.

Weâ€™ll no doubt be hearing the gop defence of trump - no bribes accepted so nothing to see here.ðŸ™„

At some point folks who continue to ignore or excuse all of Johnsonâ€™s lack of understanding, his evasion, lies, deceits and dissembling (see his one hour of all of the aforementioned when interviewed by Rachel Burden on R5Live) are going to have to just come out of their denial and decide what is right. Johnson and his crew are just no longer funny.

I used to think that the conservatives had at their core some decency and values - and leading people I might not agree with but could respect. But that was then and Iâ€™m struggling now.  The decent conservatives are still out there but I am no longer hearing that voice.
		
Click to expand...

So Boris is guilty until proven Innocent- very Christian  ðŸ˜£


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right Doon - what widdecombe and others in the Brexit party are talking about is attempted bribery by the tories.

Weâ€™ll no doubt be hearing the gop defence of trump - no bribes accepted so nothing to see here.ðŸ™„

At some point folks who continue to ignore or excuse all of Johnsonâ€™s lack of understanding, his evasion, lies, deceits and dissembling (see his one hour of all of the aforementioned when interviewed by Rachel Burden on R5Live) are going to have to just come out of their denial and decide what is right. Johnson and his crew are just no longer funny.

I used to think that the conservatives had at their core some decency and values - and leading people I might not agree with but could respect. But that was then and Iâ€™m struggling now.  The decent conservatives are still out there but I am no longer hearing that voice.
		
Click to expand...

Strange that you are prepared to believe Farage on this. Could it be that it suits your anti-Conservative agenda?

In any event the Met are not currently investigating the Tory party. 

They have received an allegation from a Labour peer and are considering if there is anything to merit an investigation. 

As for Miss Widdecombe it would not be entirely surprising nor without merit given her experience and knowledge if she was asked to join any post-election negotiations over Brexit.


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

Latest YouGov poll has the Conservatives on 45% with Labour back on 28%. If that is repeated come the 12th December, it will be a landslide for Boris


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Peston tweeted it so I assume he did his research, btw what makes you think the like a of fb and amazo n will stump upnthere tax ?? Their more likely to run further away.
		
Click to expand...

They can be shut down ... the Chinese and North Koreans do that, not saying itâ€™s right or wrong but we need them to pay their taxes and if that is the level then I would pull it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I happen to think the NHS is one of the greatest things this country has...Itâ€™s world class, (In spite of the fact it is massively abused and often used for the wrong things)...But if it was proposed tomorrow as a new idea it would never get off the ground.  Look at obamacare.
		
Click to expand...

Obamacare was wanted by the people, the republican senate stifled all of his policies making his presidency pointless .. we donâ€™t have that issue with the Lords.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Latest YouGov poll has the Conservatives on 45% with Labour back on 28%. If that is repeated come the 12th December, it will be a landslide for Boris
		
Click to expand...

And trump will buy the NHS, the working and middle classes will carry on enjoying the austerity policies ... yippee!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Boris is guilty until proven Innocent- very Christian  ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

Nope the evidence is there for the last 10 years ... itâ€™s just the daily mail doesnâ€™t print it and the bbc is too left to be considered a credible source.
Choice is yours, accept it or live in denial.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Latest YouGov poll has the Conservatives on 45% with Labour back on 28%. If that is repeated come the 12th December, it will be a landslide for Boris
		
Click to expand...

Poll percentage does not relate to seats won.
SNP on about 4% of total UK vote but look like returning 45 seats.
It is still going to be close about 10 seats either way IMVHO.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Poll percentage does not relate to seats won.
*SNP on about 4% of total UK vote but look like returning 45 seats.*
It is still going to be close about 10 seats either way IMVHO.
		
Click to expand...

Aye and you still boring on about being under-represented!ðŸ¤ª


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Aye and you still boring on about being under-represented!ðŸ¤ª
		
Click to expand...

I can't recall of any occasion where I said that.
Perhaps you can give me an example.
Ignored and totally misunderstood at Westminster perhaps, under represented no.

   OT but latest...............Yea great try by Fin Russell against the cheats.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope the evidence is there for the last 10 years ... itâ€™s just the daily mail doesnâ€™t print it and the bbc is too left to be considered a credible source.
Choice is yours, accept it or live in denial.
		
Click to expand...

Or dont accept it and vote Tory - my choice, not yours


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Or dont accept it and vote Tory - my choice, not yours
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I know .. thatâ€™s what I said


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Poll percentage does not relate to seats won.
SNP on about 4% of total UK vote but look like returning 45 seats.
It is still going to be close about 10 seats either way IMVHO.
		
Click to expand...

If the Tories get 45% and Labour only get 28%, Boris will have a 100+ seat majority. It may still be close of course as it's only an opinion poll, no guarantee that's what the vote will be, but my point was if that IS the way the nation votes on the 12th Dec, it will NOT be close, it will be a Boris landslide.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yeah I know .. thatâ€™s what I said
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but I decided that for myself some 40+ years ago,  you kid yourself if you think I'd take notice of the trash you post


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			If the Tories get 45% and Labour only get 28%, Boris will have a 100+ seat majority. It may still be close of course as it's only an opinion poll, no guarantee that's what the vote will be, but my point was if that IS the way the nation votes on the 12th Dec, it will NOT be close, it will be a Boris landslide.
		
Click to expand...

Brexit party will take votes from the Tories in marginals.
Anti Tory alliance of the other parties should make it close.
I also expect Labour to close substantially on the Tories


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is free at the point of use which means that people who are ill and cannot afford treatment get the same treatment as people who are extremely rich and could afford to pay for the treatment they receive but choose not to.
Seems reasonable to me or do you think the rich folk are being unreasonable and we should just let the poor folk die.
		
Click to expand...

Two reasons your post is wrong.

Extremely rich people dont tend to use the NHS for medical treatment although they pay for it.

The highest earning 1%  in the UK pay 28% of all income tax.


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brexit party will take votes from the Tories in marginals.
Anti Tory alliance of the other parties should make it close.
I also expect Labour to close substantially on the Tories

Click to expand...

Feel free to make whatever predictions you like, I'll stick to tracking the opinion polls for the time being and post about what they're showing when I think they are of interest.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yeah but I decided that for myself some 40+ years ago,  you kid yourself if you think I'd take notice of the trash you post
		
Click to expand...

Not expecting you to, you have set your stall out.
Problem is you just regurgitate the Tory rags .. without consideration and then think itâ€™s unreasonable to have some point out that your man is not a first choice. 
Not read a compelling argument or point worth noting on this matter from you, just your attempt at winding and fire starting.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not expecting you to, you have set your stall out.
Problem is you just regurgitate the Tory rags .. without consideration and then think itâ€™s unreasonable to have some point out that your man is not a first choice. 
Not read a compelling argument or point worth noting on this matter from you, just your attempt at winding and fire starting.
		
Click to expand...

I dont think you'd ever accept "my stall" if I set it out.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont think you'd ever accept "my stall" if I set it out.
		
Click to expand...

Not what I have read so far no, but in the end I donâ€™t really care for your opinion. It saddens me that my grandparents gave their lives to stop this form of politics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Two reasons your post is wrong.

Extremely rich people dont tend to use the NHS for medical treatment although they pay for it.

The highest earning 1%  in the UK pay 28% of all income tax.
		
Click to expand...

Extremely rich people can become as rich as the rest of us...


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not what I have read so far no, but in the end I donâ€™t really care for your opinion. It saddens me that my grandparents gave their lives to stop this form of politics.
		
Click to expand...

No more than I care for yours


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## patricks148 (Nov 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			NHS is gonna cost Â£139 Billion next year. Hardly free is it?... I know folk North of the border are keen on freebies but these things do actually cost real money.
		
Click to expand...

i thought that was why we paid Tax and National insurance... or would you rather have tax cuts for the wealthy.... on 2nd thoughts maybe i won't ask what you would prefer


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Boris is guilty until proven Innocent- very Christian  ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

Johnson is guilty of what? (Met) Police Examine Farage claims of Tory bribes - according to my ST. No mention of Johnson being involved - none at all, nothing to do with him.

Johnson is guilty of plenty, but as you are concerned about how Christians might view him - well they would forgive him - though their forgiveness does not absolve him of his guilt. Since you asked.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not expecting you to, you have set your stall out.
Problem is you just regurgitate the Tory rags .. without consideration and then think itâ€™s unreasonable to have some point out that your man is not a first choice.
Not read a compelling argument or point worth noting on this matter from you, just your attempt at winding and fire starting.
		
Click to expand...

Develi's Advocate post. Tory supporting rags post lies and, shock, so do the Labour supporting rags. Thank God for The Guardian...

Is there any media outlet without bias? Oh, I forgot about LBC...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not what I have read so far no, but in the end I donâ€™t really care for your opinion. It saddens me that my grandparents gave their lives to stop this form of politics.
		
Click to expand...

Quite possibly the most pretentious and pompous post I have ever read, and trust me there has been some competition. 

If you truly think that any of the views expressed on here have anything in common with the practices and policies of extreme regimes led by the likes of Hitler and Stalin then you have problems.


----------



## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Quite possibly the most pretentious and pompous post I have ever read, and trust me there has been some competition.

If you truly think that any of the views expressed on here have anything in common with the practices and policies of extreme regimes led by the likes of Hitler and Stalin then you have problems.
		
Click to expand...

Seem to remember he suggested copying China or North Korea...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Develi's Advocate post. Tory supporting rags post lies and, shock, so do the Labour supporting rags. Thank God for The Guardian...

Is there any media outlet without bias? Oh, I forgot about LBC...

Click to expand...

True ... but how many Tory rags are there and how many are owned by the same person?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Quite possibly the most pretentious and pompous post I have ever read, and trust me there has been some competition.

If you truly think that any of the views expressed on here have anything in common with the practices and policies of extreme regimes led by the likes of Hitler and Stalin then you have problems.
		
Click to expand...

Read your history ... none of them thought they were extreme.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Seem to remember he suggested copying China or North Korea...

Click to expand...

Do you need it explained to you ? ðŸ™„ or do you want to just make a dig of no value ? 
Go and look how they control the internet


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Read your history ... none of them thought they were extreme.
		
Click to expand...

You can't help yourself can you?

Suggesting I read my history. How arrogant do you think that sounds?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Read your history ... none of them thought they were extreme.
		
Click to expand...

But they were, wernt they?    Most of us had family members who paid the ultimate price for freedom in the World wars but how can that be any comparison to the country changing a trading arrangement.  Lets keep things in context please.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			You can't help yourself can you?

Suggesting I read my history. How arrogant do you think that sounds?
		
Click to expand...

Dunno what your problem is, your throwing the insults about.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you need it explained to you ? ðŸ™„ or do you want to just make a dig of no value ?
Go and look how they control the internet
		
Click to expand...

Don't be a prat Chris. I know full well what you meant, and if you look again you'll see a smilie in my post. Quite frankly your comment was puerile, as was my answer. Lighten up man.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But they were, wernt they?    Most of us had family members who paid the ultimate price for freedom in the World wars but how can that be any comparison to the country changing a trading arrangement.  Lets keep things in balance.
		
Click to expand...

Yes we all have links. But there is an underlying current of racism. 
If you donâ€™t want to acknowledge it, no problem I am not arguing with any one over this. You have your view I have mine.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Dunno what your problem is, your throwing the insults about.
		
Click to expand...

And just where have I insulted either you or anyone else?


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			You can't help yourself can you?

Suggesting I read my history. How arrogant do you think that sounds?
		
Click to expand...

And that's just the problem Mickie - he just can't help himself.  I've lived through the history since the '50's and despite my upbringing have long since come to the conclusion that the Torys were the only party that can run the economy, look after jobs etc


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And just where have I insulted either you or anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

Blimey you missed the first post you wrote 30-45mins ago about being pompous.


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Blimey you missed the first post you wrote 30-45mins ago about being pompous.
		
Click to expand...

That was a fact based assessment...ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes we all have links. But there is an underlying current of racism.
If you donâ€™t want to acknowledge it, no problem I am not arguing with any one over this. You have your view I have mine.
		
Click to expand...

I am not interested in arguing, I am debating the subject and find your parallels with people losing lives for their countries difficult to understand, I find your further accusation of racism more confusing.  I apreciate you have your view but surely if you state it you will clarify it.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not interested in arguing, I am debating the subject and find your parallels with people losing lives for their countries difficult to understand, I find your further accusation of racism more confusing.  I apreciate you have your view but surely if you state it you will clarify it.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t even try to reason with him, heâ€™s one of a few on here that equate wanting to tighten up unrestricted immigration with a regime that exterminated 6 million people. Absolute barm pot. Goes for the racist card faster than Lammy.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Nobody even slightly terrified of the idea of a socialist state run internet? 

Also when will people realise that there is no such thing as â€œfreeâ€ ... the term â€œfreeâ€ means taxing the working man/woman even more, and I know nutcase McDonnell thinks fb and Amazon will pay for everything (They seem to be Labourâ€™s magic money tree because that idiot on question time reckons they will pay for the nhs too!) but the reality of Comrade Corbynâ€™s socialist utopia would be hell on earth for the real working class.
		
Click to expand...

Good what a lot of rubbish 

Taxes are to pay for things

The Tories slash taxes and underfund things

Last year the Tories slashed the tax bracket again making me Â£50pm. Better off.. why? I didn't ask for it.. do we not need that money as a country??? I thought we were broke 

Stop the tax give aways to try and win favours and fund things ffs


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Good what a lot of rubbish

Taxes are to pay for things

The Tories slash taxes and underfund things

Last year the Tories slashed the tax bracket again making me Â£50pm. Better off.. why? I didn't ask for it.. do we not need that money as a country??? I thought we were broke

Stop the tax give aways to try and win favours and fund things ffs
		
Click to expand...

I prefer to keep more of my money and spend it where I prefer rather than the state deciding that for me. If I want to spend it on internet supply then I'm capable of doing that myself.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer to keep more of my money and spend it where I prefer rather than the state deciding that for me. If I want to spend it on internet supply then I'm capable of doing that myself.
		
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It's a fairer society for all not a better society for you


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## chrisd (Nov 18, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Good what a lot of rubbish 

Taxes are to pay for things

The Tories slash taxes and underfund things

Last year the Tories slashed the tax bracket again making me Â£50pm. Better off.. why? I didn't ask for it.. do we not need that money as a country??? I thought we were broke 

Stop the tax give aways to try and win favours and fund things ffs
		
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Economics Paul, you have extra Â£50, you will spend it, so will whoever you spend it with. Companies, shops etc will take more income and make more profit and ultimately pay more tax. The Tory philosophy is that by reducing  the tax rate at the higher level, the more they make in revenue, as higher earners are more willing to pay the tax and not look so much for tax avoidance schemes. Its a fine balance.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a fairer society for all not a better society for you
		
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Rhetorically, what is a fairer society? No more food banks? No more homelessness? Rent caps? Cap on profits? Better benefits for the disadvantaged?

I'm all for higher taxes, sort of. I'm all for the offshore companies paying the same taxes as the onshore companies. I'm in favour of online shops paying a premium - they're killing the High Street, turning town centres into dilapidated ghost towns.

But for the "higher taxes, sort of," I disagree with different tax rates for individuals. That isn't fair. Fairness is equality. Currently and roughly, someone earning Â£30k pays 20% of around Â£18k + 10% NI = Â£6.5k (roughly). Someone earning Â£100k pays 20% between Â£12k and Â£45k, and 40% up to the Â£100k + NI = Â£38k (roughly). If the high earner was on 20% across the board they'd still pay Â£27k. That's over Â£20k more than the person on Â£30k.

For me, raise the tax free allowance but also set a standard rate of tax right across the board. If you've earned it, it should be yours to spend as you see fit apart from a standard rate of taxation.



chrisd said:



			Economics Paul, you have extra Â£50, you will spend it, so will whoever you spend it with. Companies, shops etc will take more income and make more profit and ultimately pay more tax. The Tory philosophy is that by reducing  the tax rate at the higher level, the more they make in revenue, as higher earners are more willing to pay the tax and not look so much for tax avoidance schemes. Its a fine balance.
		
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Trickle down economics has been proven to be clumsy and doesn't work on the mega rich. The percentage of money spent by someone on Â£50k is far higher than the percentage spent by someone on Â£1,000,000. The mega rich also look for tax breaks on investments that those on Â£50k can't afford. There's only so much money a rich person can spend, the rest being 'parked,' which doesn't benefit the trickle down effect.


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## chrisd (Nov 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Trickle down economics has been proven to be clumsy and doesn't work on the mega rich. The percentage of money spent by someone on Â£50k is far higher than the percentage spent by someone on Â£1,000,000. The mega rich also look for tax breaks on investments that those on Â£50k can't afford. There's only so much money a rich person can spend, the rest being 'parked,' which doesn't benefit the trickle down effect.
		
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I was trying to offer a suggestion as to why governments tend to offer tax breaks. I realise that the mega rich dont spend so much as a proportion of their assets  but that their mentality towards the tax take is generally more relaxed at lower tax levels. You and I both will remember the mass exodus of high earners when tax rates were increased towards the 90% rate


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## MegaSteve (Nov 18, 2019)

On my ballot paper will be a liar an antisemite an airhead a tree hugger a vegan plus a couple of unknowns...

NOTA looking most likely...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196169835085996033From the doctors and nurses...â€¦...not the Tory politicians [I assume they are talking about NHS England]


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## patricks148 (Nov 18, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...SwR6GTZYsPiUUR9Ef9QaFWkOTCbNCe4fqH3KQwDGIu_XE 

Gove up to his old tricks i see


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

And wondering what tricks Johnson was up to...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...arcuri-relationship-secrets-itv-a9206076.html 

Do I believe her?  A woman scorned...you'd think that by now, and with his experience of the fairer sex, Johnson would know better.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Economics Paul, you have extra Â£50, you will spend it, so will whoever you spend it with. Companies, shops etc will take more income and make more profit and ultimately pay more tax. The Tory philosophy is that by reducing  the tax rate at the higher level, the more they make in revenue, as higher earners are more willing to pay the tax and not look so much for tax avoidance schemes. Its a fine balance.
		
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That will drag in more imports, so China, Germany etc will be happy - but the balance of payments perhaps not so !


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## chrisd (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			That will drag in more imports, so China, Germany etc will be happy - but the balance of payments perhaps not so !
		
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There will be money spent in the usual ways, it won't all be on imports


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			There will be money spent in the usual ways, it won't *all* be on imports
		
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I said "...more..."  not "...all..." as you state.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a fairer society for all not a better society for you
		
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Don't know what you're advocating, would you like a communist society where everyone has the same wealth no matter what they do and it's all state controlled?    When you say a fairer society for all is that in respect of opportunities or wealth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

And so - Johnson's great announcement to the CBI conference is that he will not be including a cut in corporation tax in the Tory Party manifesto - oh how he laughed...oh how the CBI laughed.  Curious.  Someone advising must be thinking of the cost of the promises made to the public and the cost of Brexit - especially if we leave end 2020 without a deal agreed.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - Johnson's great announcement to the CBI conference is that he will not be including a cut in corporation tax in the Tory Party manifesto - oh how he laughed...oh how the CBI laughed.  Curious.  Someone advising must be thinking of the cost of the promises made to the public and the cost of Brexit - especially if we leave end 2020 without a deal agreed.
		
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And what's wrong with that?  Surely a government should be thinking of the costs.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - Johnson's great announcement to the CBI conference is that he will not be including a cut in corporation tax in the Tory Party manifesto - oh how he laughed...oh how the CBI laughed.  Curious.  Someone advising must be thinking of the cost of the promises made to the public and the cost of Brexit - especially if we leave end 2020 without a deal agreed.
		
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As yuo enjoy knocking the Tories because of they are toffs and have 'Public' school origins, I came across this... enjoy!

This conveyor load of ex-public faces for Conservative Pary Leader generating:

Margaret Thatcher: Grammer School
John Major: Grammar School
William Hague: Comprehensive School
Iain Duncan Smith: Secondary Modern
Micheal Howard: Grammar School
David Cameron: Private/Public School (fee paying)
Theresa May: Grammar School
Boris Johnson: Private/Public School (won a scholarship, the Kings Scholarship represents the original ethos of Eton to provide schooling for 70 poor boys a year. Not to say that at the time the Johnson family was impoverished, but neither were they fabulously wealthy. His father had worked hard in academic research (never a high salary profession) to a decent job at the European Commission).

So 6:2 in favour of the State, and likely if Johnson hadn't won a scholarship, he also would have been in the State sector.

Labour:
James Callaghan; Grammer School
Micheal Foot: Private/Public School
Neil Kinnock: Comprehensive School
John Smith: Grammar School
Margaret Beckett: State Secondary
Tony Blair: Private/Public School
Gordon Brown: State Secondary
Harriet Harman: Private/Public School
Ed Miliband: Comprehensive School
Jeremy Corbyn: Grammar School


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## patricks148 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			As yuo enjoy knocking the Tories because of they are toffs and have 'Public' school origins, I came across this... enjoy!

This conveyor load of ex-public faces for Conservative Pary Leader generating:

Margaret Thatcher: Grammer School
John Major: Grammar School
William Hague: Comprehensive School
Iain Duncan Smith: Secondary Modern
Micheal Howard: Grammar School
David Cameron: Private/Public School (fee paying)
Theresa May: Grammar School
Boris Johnson: Private/Public School (won a scholarship, the Kings Scholarship represents the original ethos of Eton to provide schooling for 70 poor boys a year. Not to say that at the time the Johnson family was impoverished, but neither were they fabulously wealthy. His father had worked hard in academic research (never a high salary profession) to a decent job at the European Commission).

So 6:2 in favour of the State, and likely if Johnson hadn't won a scholarship, he also would have been in the State sector.

Labour:
James Callaghan; Grammer School
Micheal Foot: Private/Public School
Neil Kinnock: Comprehensive School
John Smith: Grammar School
Margaret Beckett: State Secondary
Tony Blair: Private/Public School
Gordon Brown: State Secondary
Harriet Harman: Private/Public School
Ed Miliband: Comprehensive School
Jeremy Corbyn: Grammar School
		
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didn't his brother go to Eton too... did he get a scholaship too or is it just coinsidence?


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## MegaSteve (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			As yuo enjoy knocking the Tories because of they are toffs and have 'Public' school origins, I came across this... enjoy!

This conveyor load of ex-public faces for Conservative Pary Leader generating:

Margaret Thatcher: Grammer School
John Major: Grammar School
William Hague: Comprehensive School
Iain Duncan Smith: Secondary Modern
Micheal Howard: Grammar School
David Cameron: Private/Public School (fee paying)
Theresa May: Grammar School
Boris Johnson: Private/Public School (won a scholarship, the Kings Scholarship represents the original ethos of Eton to provide schooling for 70 poor boys a year. Not to say that at the time the Johnson family was impoverished, but neither were they fabulously wealthy. His father had worked hard in academic research (never a high salary profession) to a decent job at the European Commission).

So 6:2 in favour of the State, and likely if Johnson hadn't won a scholarship, he also would have been in the State sector.

Labour:
James Callaghan; Grammer School
Micheal Foot: Private/Public School
Neil Kinnock: Comprehensive School
John Smith: Grammar School
Margaret Beckett: State Secondary
Tony Blair: Private/Public School
Gordon Brown: State Secondary
Harriet Harman: Private/Public School
Ed Miliband: Comprehensive School
Jeremy Corbyn: Grammar School
		
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Not many there, I suspect, have much experience in the school of life in the real world...


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Not many there, I suspect, have much experience in the school of life in the real world...
		
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Oh come on you can do better. 
You might want to know Iain Duncan Smith -  father was a used car salesman turned RAF fighter ace. Straight into the army from school. Attended Secondary Modern for 4 years; when I was young, the secondary moderns were where you went if you couldn't get into Grammar School.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Oh come on you can do better.
You might want to know Iain Duncan Smith -  father was a used car salesman turned RAF fighter ace. Straight into the army from school. Attended Secondary Modern for 4 years; when I was young, the secondary moderns were where you went if you couldn't get into Grammar School.
		
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Didn't IDS attend Pangbourne?

 ANd his brother certainly went to a public school  as he was a classmate of mine.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Didn't IDS attend Pangbourne?

ANd his brother certainly went to a public school  as he was a classmate of mine.
		
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Don't know about ID-S and Pangbourne or his brother, so you could be right.

My post was really just saying there ain't much 'class' difference in the origins of either Tory or Labour's front end.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't know about ID-S and Pangbourne or his brother, so you could be right.

My post was really just saying there ain't much 'class' difference in the origins of either Tory or Labour's front end.
		
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True, and for some years now both sides of the House have been largely populated by "professional politicians" with very little, if any,  experience of the real world. 

On another thread I once advanced the old dictum that a country gets the politicians it deserves. 

Which makes me wonder what on earth we have done to merit this current lot!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Didn't IDS attend Pangbourne?

ANd his brother certainly went to a public school  as he was a classmate of mine.
		
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From Wikipedia :

Duncan Smith was educated at Bishop Glancey Secondary Modern, Solihull, until the age of 14,[5] then until he was 18 at HMS _Conway_, a Merchant Navy training school on the Isle of Anglesey, where he played rugby union in the position of fly-half alongside Clive Woodward at centre. In 1975, he attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was commissioned into the Scots Guards.[6]


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			From Wikipedia :

Duncan Smith was educated at Bishop Glancey Secondary Modern, Solihull, until the age of 14,[5] then until he was 18 at HMS _Conway_, a Merchant Navy training school on the Isle of Anglesey, where he played rugby union in the position of fly-half alongside Clive Woodward at centre. In 1975, he attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was commissioned into the Scots Guards.[6]

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I can assure you that his was not a typical secondary modern background.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I can assure you that his was not a typical secondary modern background.
		
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Maybe not but not overtly privalidged.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			From Wikipedia :

Duncan Smith was educated at Bishop Glancey Secondary Modern, Solihull, until the age of 14,[5] then until he was 18 at HMS _Conway_, a Merchant Navy training school on the Isle of Anglesey, where he played rugby union in the position of fly-half alongside Clive Woodward at centre. In 1975, he attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was commissioned into the Scots Guards.[6]

Click to expand...




MetalMickie said:



			I can assure you that his was not a typical secondary modern background.
		
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HMS Conway is a boarding school that is run like a MN ship... he was there around the time I visited with my parents with a view to attending. Very old fashioned "Mr Chips" air to it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



*As yuo enjoy knocking the Tories because of they are toffs and have 'Public' school origins,* I came across this... enjoy!

This conveyor load of ex-public faces for Conservative Pary Leader generating:

Margaret Thatcher: Grammer School
John Major: Grammar School
William Hague: Comprehensive School
Iain Duncan Smith: Secondary Modern
Micheal Howard: Grammar School
David Cameron: Private/Public School (fee paying)
Theresa May: Grammar School
Boris Johnson: Private/Public School (won a scholarship, the Kings Scholarship represents the original ethos of Eton to provide schooling for 70 poor boys a year. Not to say that at the time the Johnson family was impoverished, but neither were they fabulously wealthy. His father had worked hard in academic research (never a high salary profession) to a decent job at the European Commission).

So 6:2 in favour of the State, and likely if Johnson hadn't won a scholarship, he also would have been in the State sector.

Labour:
James Callaghan; Grammer School
Micheal Foot: Private/Public School
Neil Kinnock: Comprehensive School
John Smith: Grammar School
Margaret Beckett: State Secondary
Tony Blair: Private/Public School
Gordon Brown: State Secondary
Harriet Harman: Private/Public School
Ed Miliband: Comprehensive School
Jeremy Corbyn: Grammar School
		
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Sorry - when did I do *this*? - I certainly can't recall having done so.  In general I have no idea of the schooling of Tory Ministers or MPs and frankly care less - the Eton educated ones are highlighted in the media but in truth there are not that many of them.

Being able to relate to Joe or Jane Public is not a simple function of your schooling - rather I suspect it is more to do with the attitudes and values that you develop during your schooling and university education - plus your associations and friendships in the network of contacts that you develop and subsequently utilise.

See Johnson's response to the question _How can people connect to you..._

_Am I relatable? I've not the faintest idea..._


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2019)

Two pro Brexit party leaders have a free pop on National TV at the parties who do not support Brexit plus another free pop at their other election policies.
That does strike me as being very British.
And before the very boring 17.2m start up...â€¦...one of pro Brexit party leaders has called it the 'Brexit election'.


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## ger147 (Nov 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two pro Brexit party leaders have a free pop on National TV at the parties who do not support Brexit plus another free pop at their other election policies.
That does strike me as being very British.
And before the very boring 17.2m start up...â€¦...one of pro Brexit party leaders has called it the 'Brexit election'.
		
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You can't be picking which court judgements you like and which you don't, need to take the rough with the smooth.

The court cases were merely a stunt by the Lib Dems and SNP for some more coverage during the campaign, took the judges all of 10 mins to throw the case out.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson is guilty of what? (Met) Police Examine Farage claims of Tory bribes - according to my ST. No mention of Johnson being involved - none at all, nothing to do with him.

Johnson is guilty of plenty, but as you are concerned about how Christians might view him - well they would forgive him - though their forgiveness does not absolve him of his guilt. Since you asked.
		
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Oh, we all know how well you forgive BoJo . And , of course, you do so every day, no doubt because you find something every day for which he should be forgiven.ðŸ™„
I get the impression that your sort of forgiveness in his case is similar to Cleopatra's to her maidservant in the 1963 film.ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			HMS Conway is a boarding school that is run like a MN ship... he was there around the time I visited with my parents with a view to attending. Very old fashioned "Mr Chips" air to it.
		
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Yes there were a number of these old wooden Ex Rn War ships used as Training ships or schools.  I can remember one called TS Feudroyant at Gosport when I was in the Navy


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You can't be picking which court judgements you like and which you don't, need to take the rough with the smooth.

The court cases were merely a stunt by the Lib Dems and SNP for some more coverage during the campaign, took the judges all of 10 mins to throw the case out.
		
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I am not picking, the case was bound to fail.
I was commenting on the very basic unfairness of a Government calling the election by the name of a 'Brexit Election' then the TV companies not allowing the anti Brexit parties a platform on a leaders debate.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not picking, the case was bound to fail.
I was commenting on the very basic unfairness of a Government calling the election by the name of a 'Brexit Election' then the TV companies not allowing the anti Brexit parties a platform on a leaders debate.
		
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If they called it a General Election should they allow Generals.


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## Dando (Nov 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not picking, the case was bound to fail.
I was commenting on the very basic unfairness of a Government calling the election by the name of a 'Brexit Election' then the TV companies not allowing the anti Brexit parties a platform on a leaders debate.
		
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they only want the important parties to take part


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2019)

Sums it up perfectly


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196487573700595714


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## Fade and Die (Nov 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sums it up perfectly


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196487573700595714

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Maybe Lego head  can do her own one person debate/rant on BBC Alba?.... Not really worth bothering the rest of the country with her views is it since only a minority can vote for her party?


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## Pro Zach (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sums it up perfectly


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196487573700595714

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Itâ€™s a UK election and the SNP only represent people in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon is not the leader of a UK national party, she is the leader of a Scottish National Party. Why should she be invited to a national debate when the vast majority of the UK canâ€™t vote for her party?

Where I live there is an independent candidate. Should he be at the debate as the leader of a one candidate party standing in one Yorkshire constituency? If he gets together with other independents and forms the Yorkshire party with 30 constituents, should he then be invited to a national debate even though most people in the UK canâ€™t vote for them?


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Itâ€™s a UK election and the SNP only represent people in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon is not the leader of a UK national party, she is the leader of a Scottish National Party. Why should she be invited to a national debate when the vast majority of the UK canâ€™t vote for her party?

Where I live there is an independent candidate. Should he be at the debate as the leader of a one candidate party standing in one Yorkshire constituency? If he gets together with other independents and forms the Yorkshire party with 30 constituents, should he then be invited to a national debate even though most people in the UK canâ€™t vote for them?
		
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She's not even an MP. However, I do feel Ian Blackford and Jo Swinson hould be there. There's a chance of a hung parliament, and it would be good to hear their take on things.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)

Cant say I disagree with this (No idea which rag this is from BTW)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196696002557857794


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Cant say I disagree with this (No idea which rag this is from BTW)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196696002557857794

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Ah we are falling for media darlings, bright teeth, easy smiles, warm hand shakes and bombastic sound bites ...
Pointless really, the track record, the future plans should be the reason.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)

Paul Embery

@PaulEmbery
Â·
14h

The Labour manifesto "proposes a review of the 'legacies' of UK imperialism and human rights abuses under British rule across the globe." Well done, guys. Just what the voters in Stoke-on-Trent were crying out for.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			She's not even an MP. However, I do feel Ian Blackford and Jo Swinson hould be there. There's a chance of a hung parliament, and it would be good to hear their take on things.
		
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Why don't you know????????


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			the track record, the future plans should be the reason.
		
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Jo Swinson - no track record, totally undemocratic future plans - nuff said!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, we all know how well you forgive BoJo . And , of course, you do so every day, no doubt because you find something every day for which he should be forgiven.ðŸ™„
I get the impression that your sort of forgiveness in his case is similar to Cleopatra's to her maidservant in the 1963 film.ðŸ˜‰
		
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Since you question it - I have to...though he has done little to wrong me. But as is the nature of these things I can (and have to) pray for him that, when our next PM, he gives honest, open, decent and caring leadership.  I don't expect anyone without faith to understand that - it's not easy to do - but it is what it is.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Itâ€™s a UK election and the SNP only represent people in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon is not the leader of a UK national party, she is the leader of a Scottish National Party. Why should she be invited to a national debate when the vast majority of the UK canâ€™t vote for her party?

Where I live there is an independent candidate. Should he be at the debate as the leader of a one candidate party standing in one Yorkshire constituency? If he gets together with other independents and forms the Yorkshire party with 30 constituents, should he then be invited to a national debate even though most people in the UK canâ€™t vote for them?
		
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Sorry but Nicola Sturgeon certainly is the leader of a UK national party, the fact that they choose not to stand candidates outwith Scotland is simply their choice.. 
Mind you I can easily understand why Johnson and Corbyn are too scared to debate with her


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Jo Swinson - no track record, totally undemocratic future plans - nuff said!
		
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Define undemocratic ?
She is representing *up to* 16 million people's view on Brexit. 
Maybe not yours or the Russians, Comrade


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## MegaSteve (Nov 19, 2019)

Despite local rumours appears Boris is standing for re-election in Uxbridge... Will be absolutely hilarious if he gets pushed into second spot by someone describing themself as an "Interplanetary Time Lord"...


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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...wJaEVibYcxrf7O09uhqwdBnwU0#Echobox=1574104702 

looks like its not just SILH who thinks Boris tells porkys


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...wJaEVibYcxrf7O09uhqwdBnwU0#Echobox=1574104702

looks like its not just SILH who thinks Boris tells porkys
		
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I think he does as well ... which is very controversial on this forum!
The problem here is that it will be dismissed because it's a left wing newspaper (if your so far right everything becomes left )


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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think he does as well ... which is very controversial on this forum!
The problem here is that it will be dismissed because it's a left wing newspaper (if your so far right everything becomes left )
		
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of course, but that Peter Oborne has a history of writting for left wing papers, like the The Daily Mail and Telegraph


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)




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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








Click to expand...

can't have been much of a Labour supporter if he has nothing in common Socialist policy's... or fake news


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








Click to expand...

Whereas in North Aberdeenshire it is the Tory Party that is throwing their own candidates out for extremist views 
Looks like an uncontested seat now


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1018417706113077249There is oor Nige, championing the Norway model of oil tax fund allowing it to become a rich country.
If only the UK had done the same eh Nige.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

The great thing about this thread is the entertainment value watching those with committed views blustering that one party is lying whilst the party they support is somehow dedicated to telling the truth.

I realise that it is unwise on here to admit to advanced years but, at least, experience can teach a number of things.

Having followed the leading parties' campaigns and voted in 13 General Elections the one thing I have learned is that in elections,  like war, truth is the first casualty. 

No party would ever expect to be elected to power if they, and they alone, told the unvarnished truth. 

If they did there would be no need for "spin doctors" and we all realise that those particular characters are now embedded in all parties. 

I don't see it changing anytime soon and please spare me all the arguments that one side lies more than the other or that "they started it".

They're all at it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



*Itâ€™s a UK election* and the SNP only represent people in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon is not the leader of a UK national party, she is the leader of a Scottish National Party. Why should she be invited to a national debate when the vast majority of the UK canâ€™t vote for her party?

Where I live there is an independent candidate. Should he be at the debate as the leader of a one candidate party standing in one Yorkshire constituency? If he gets together with other independents and forms the Yorkshire party with 30 constituents, should he then be invited to a national debate even though most people in the UK canâ€™t vote for them?
		
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 Just on that little statement.  It absolutely is.  So why do Tories continually parrot the _'We will Get Brexit Done in 2020 - Labour will inflict two referendum upon us'_  line - when the audience is the UK electorate.  I'm not actually sure that Labour are suggesting that Scotland will have a referendum in 2020 if Sturgeon requests one.  But hey.  

Of course we know it is aimed at all of who are tired with what has happened since the last referendum - and the 'Brendas of Bristol' of this world who can't be bothered with too much democracy.  So let's spin a little deceit to the English/Welsh/NI electorate about Labour plans.  

The issue is pretty obvious.  There is an electorate of about 4m in Scotland and the main political battle in Scotland will not be addressed *at all* by a Tory v Labour Head to Head debate - indeed such a H2H is almost irrelevant for many if not most of the Scottish electorate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			She's not even an MP. However, I do feel Ian Blackford and Jo Swinson hould be there. There's a chance of a hung parliament, and it would be good to hear their take on things.
		
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Are *any *candidates actually now MPs?  With parliament dissolved for a General Election are there any MPs at the moment?  

If Jo Swinson lost her seat in the GE but remained leader of the LibDems would she be invited to take part in any future Leadership Debates?  

Is Farage going to be involved in any coming GE debate?  Because if he is not as he was not a Westminster MP who would take part on behalf of the Brexit Party - or will they be excluded as they had no MPs in the last parliament?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			of course, but that Peter Oborne has a history of writting for left wing papers, like the The Daily Mail and Telegraph

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On DomCumm and the lies and the Press part in it.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=413000532961671

Peter Oborne was strongly Leave - until he started to look into the impact of Brexit - especially upon Northern Ireland.  Though what he feels about Johnson's 'deal' I do not know


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The great thing about this thread is the entertainment value watching those with committed views blustering that one party is lying whilst the party they support is somehow dedicated to telling the truth.

I realise that it is unwise on here to admit to advanced years but, at least, experience can teach a number of things.

Having followed the leading parties' campaigns and voted in 13 General Elections the one thing I have learned is that in elections,  like war, truth is the first casualty.

No party would ever expect to be elected to power if they, and they alone, told the unvarnished truth.

If they did there would be no need for "spin doctors" and we all realise that those particular characters are now embedded in all parties.

I don't see it changing anytime soon and please spare me all the arguments that one side lies more than the other or that "they started it".

They're all at it!
		
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The problem with this GE and the lies - is that this is a GE about Brexit - simple - and Brexit matters far beyond the lifetime of a single parliament. 

Normally when a party spins lies and deceits these are revealed once they get into government for what they are and the electorate judges the governing party accordingly in the next GE and damage caused by the deceits is limited.  That is not the case this time.  This GE is quite different from possibly any other since before WWII.  We will be stuck with the Brexit the governing party delivers - that Brexit will not be reversible at the next GE or for some very long time.

And we can guess the tactics that the Tories will employ - we only have to look at the tactics Johnson employed to win the Tory Party Leadership contest.  One-by-one he either fails to deliver on a promise he made back then; that was knowingly undeliverable, or that he steps back from - as he did yesterday on Corporation tax and raising the start point for 40% Income Tax.

And I won't be voting Labour either.


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Define undemocratic ?
She is representing *up to* 16 million people's view on Brexit.
Maybe not yours or the Russians, Comrade 

Click to expand...


Quite simple really. We all trudge along to a polling station and plonk a cross in the box to either leave the EU or remain in it, a vote it was promised that the resulting majority wish would be enacted by Parliament, then manifesto's of all the major parties in a subsequent General Election claimed that they would honour that majority and extricate us from the EU. Then, ignoring the democratic principle and the wishes of their voters who voted to leave, the Liberal nondemocrats decide that we'll stay in the EU if they get elected, a decision taken by MP's who were voted in to get us out


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite simple really. We all trudge along to a polling station and plonk a cross in the box to either leave the EU or remain in it, a vote it was promised that the resulting majority wish would be enacted by Parliament, then manifesto's of all the major parties in a subsequent General Election claimed that they would honour that majority and extricate us from the EU. Then, ignoring the democratic principle and the wishes of their voters who voted to leave, the Liberal nondemocrats decide that we'll stay in the EU if they get elected, a decision taken by MP's who were voted in to get us out
		
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 So you are quite content that candidates representing over 16,000,000 UK citizens are dis-enfranchised from fair political debate.
 Not just the Lib Dems though was it.
Scotland, the country, voted overwhelmingly [unlike a marginal UK vote] to remain in the EU. For their politicians to support Brexit would be regarded by many as undemocratic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

Teaser from O'Brien - apparently Arron Banks Email account hacked and some Emails published - and if this true at least one well known name will apparently have some difficult questions to answer.  Oooh...


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## Beezerk (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite simple really. We all trudge along to a polling station and plonk a cross in the box to either leave the EU or remain in it, a vote it was promised that the resulting majority wish would be enacted by Parliament, then manifesto's of all the major parties in a subsequent General Election claimed that they would honour that majority and extricate us from the EU. Then, ignoring the democratic principle and the wishes of their voters who voted to leave, the Liberal nondemocrats decide that we'll stay in the EU if they get elected, a decision taken by MP's who were voted in to get us out
		
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Stop it, you can't be seen to be talking any sort of sense on here


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite simple really. We all trudge along to a polling station and plonk a cross in the box to either leave the EU or remain in it, a vote it was promised that the resulting majority wish would be enacted by Parliament, then manifesto's of all the major parties in a subsequent General Election claimed that they would honour that majority and extricate us from the EU. Then, ignoring the democratic principle and the wishes of their voters who voted to leave, the Liberal nondemocrats decide that we'll stay in the EU if they get elected, a decision taken by MP's who were voted in to get us out
		
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And Johnson's 'promise' about definitely leaving the EU on 31st October 'I'd rather be dead in a ditch'; his promise of cutting Corporation Tax; his promise of cutting Income tax for higher earners by increaing the 40% threshold.  All promises.  All walked back from.  And why?  Because the circumstances and his priorities have changed.

Yes - it's tedious - but so is the 'you lost get over it' one.  Time has moved on and the need for compromise is obvious.  Telling those who voted to Remain to 'get over it' doesn't actually help very much.  Neither does a campaigning line 'Let's Get Brexit Done' when nobody can actually tell me what that Brexit that will be done will actually look like the day after we leave.  Because Brexit will not be done. Simples.  

Meanwhile all I see is No Deal Brexit next year.  Unless that is Johnson says one thing now to get the votes, and another July next year when completion of a deal is clearly not going to be achieved by the end of the year and the need for an extension is obvious and then sought.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The problem with this GE and the lies - is that this is a GE about Brexit - simple - and Brexit matters far beyond the lifetime of a single parliament.

Normally when a party spins lies and deceits these are revealed once they get into government for what they are and the electorate judges the governing party accordingly in the next GE and damage caused by the deceits is limited.  That is not the case this time.  This GE is quite different from possibly any other since before WWII.  We will be stuck with the Brexit the governing party delivers - that Brexit will not be reversible at the next GE or for some very long time.

And we can guess the tactics that the Tories will employ - we only have to look at the tactics Johnson employed to win the Tory Party Leadership contest.  One-by-one he either fails to deliver on a promise he made back then; that was knowingly undeliverable, or that he steps back from - as he did yesterday on Corporation tax and raising the start point for 40% Income Tax.

And I won't be voting Labour either.
		
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I rest my case, m'lud!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I rest my case, m'lud!
		
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But only after a non-right wing post ... 

Case dismissed


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And Johnson's 'promise' about definitely leaving the EU on 31st October 'I'd rather be dead in a ditch'; his promise of cutting Corporation Tax; his promise of cutting Income tax for higher earners by increaing the 40% threshold.  All promises.  All walked back from.  And why?  Because the circumstances and his priorities have changed.

Yes - it's tedious - but so is the 'you lost get over it' one.  Time has moved on and the need for compromise is obvious.  Telling those who voted to Remain to 'get over it' doesn't actually help very much.  Neither does a campaigning line 'Let's Get Brexit Done' when nobody can actually tell me what that Brexit that will be done will actually look like the day after we leave.  Because Brexit will not be done. Simples.  

Meanwhile all I see is No Deal Brexit next year.  Unless that is Johnson says one thing now to get the votes, and another July next year when completion of a deal is clearly not going to be achieved by the end of the year and the need for an extension is obvious and then sought.
		
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You well know that Boris meant what he said about the 31st, he was thwarted by the underhand dealings of shister remoaners, so failing to deliver his "promise" was ultimately not in his power and not his fault, although I dont  remember  the word "promise" being used by him  

Time for compromise hasn't come, leave did win and there is simply no excuse not to enact the will of the 17.4m. I'm happy with a no deal Brexit if the EU wont give us a really good deal, it shouldn't take long to sort a 'free trade deal' but if Barnier wants to sod us about no deal is fine.


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - it's tedious - but so is the 'you lost get over it' one.  Time has moved on and the need for compromise is obvious.  Telling those who voted to Remain to 'get over it' doesn't actually help very much.  /QUOTE]

Compromise!!??
What sort of compromise are you thinking of and how does that sit with what the majority of those who voted ??

It was a straight In/Out question - there can be no half measures because half measures satisfies neither side.

I can't wait for the multitude of court cases that will come from this election - results will get challenged all over the place because people are learning that they don't have to accept a decision - and who's teaching them?
		
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## IanM (Nov 19, 2019)

So, there are folk standing for election who don't recognise the outcomes of elections.... wow, what happens if they win?  Will they just stand down?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)

I can hardly wait for unbiased commentary

https://news.sky.com/story/general-...sky-news-for-election-night-coverage-11864334


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I can hardly wait for unbiased commentary

https://news.sky.com/story/general-...sky-news-for-election-night-coverage-11864334

Click to expand...

Does anyone actually watch these election night programmes..?
A DIY vasectomy with a rusty coathanger would be nearer the top of my " must do" list


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, we all know how well you forgive BoJo . And , of course, you do so every day, no doubt because you find something every day for which he should be forgiven.ðŸ™„
I get the impression that your sort of forgiveness in his case is similar to Cleopatra's to her maidservant in the 1963 film.ðŸ˜‰
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Since you question it - I have to...though he has done little to wrong me. But as is the nature of these things I can (and have to) pray for him that, when our next PM, he gives honest, open, decent and caring leadership.  *I don't expect anyone without faith to understand that* - it's not easy to do - but it is what it is. 

Click to expand...

Ref the bold bit... the very arrogance I detest in the church. It disgusts me to my core. We christians should see everyone as equal, and we should accept their code of conduct and ability to rationalise other people's beliefs at least as intelligent and possibly better. Faith isn't required for any aspect of good behaviour. Why is a god required to understand what forgiveness is?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But only after a non-right wing post ...

Case dismissed
		
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There you go again, I can assure you that I have no more right wing tendencies than I have left. 

But if it suits your narrow minded view that anyone not 100% in agreement with you is a right winger so be it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are *any *candidates actually now MPs?  With parliament dissolved for a General Election are there any MPs at the moment? 

If Jo Swinson lost her seat in the GE but remained leader of the LibDems would she be invited to take part in any future Leadership Debates? 

Is Farage going to be involved in any coming GE debate?  Because if he is not as he was not a Westminster MP who would take part on behalf of the Brexit Party - or will they be excluded as they had no MPs in the last parliament?
		
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That's at best a cop out, or just obtuse for the hell of it. If you're saying Krankie should be involved, then so should Farage. Perhaps they should also include the driver of the number 59 bus and the lollipop lady.

Johnson, Corbyn, Swinson and a number of party leaders are accountable via the (GE) ballot box. Neither Krankie nor Farage are. I don't think they should be included.

Like I said, I have no problem with Blackford being there.


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Like I said, I have no problem with Blackford being there.
		
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I do, he's an objectionable arse ðŸ˜£


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Does anyone actually watch these election night programmes..?
A DIY vasectomy with a rusty coathanger would be nearer the top of my " must do" list
		
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Election night can be quite good fun. Watching events unfold, smug politicians losing their seats. It is like watching an episode of Morse develop.

The lead up to the election, tonights debate for example, I find completely painful and will avoid, but the night of the election I enjoy. Saying that, I will be avoiding Sky now that the narcissist is appearing.

In terms of the debate, the more that are there the more pointless it becomes. I know everyone wants to be important but the reality is a good number who want to be there just are not important enough to warrant it. If you want a proper debate, to really learn something, you need to keep the numbers down. Have more debates mixing up the people but you need at least one where it is a head to head match up of the 2 biggies alone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I do, he's an objectionable arse ðŸ˜£
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196697640764878848.
Whereas this Tory candidate is probably just a salt of the earth kind of guy to you.


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196697640764878848.
Whereas this Tory candidate is probably just a salt of the earth kind of guy to you.

Click to expand...

Everyone deserves a chance ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I do, he's an objectionable arse ðŸ˜£
		
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Whether we like him or not Chris, he's an elected representative. Not my favourite by any means, but I could add that tag line to MP's from every party.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Does anyone actually watch these election night programmes..?
A DIY vasectomy with a rusty coathanger would be nearer the top of my " must do" list
		
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Hell yes!

We have a meal with friends, then put on late night nibbles and open a few more bottles. We have, or used to have, a great night's fun watching it all unfold. Its Eurovision on steroids.


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## Old Skier (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Jo Swinson - no track record, totally undemocratic future plans - nuff said!
		
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She has a track record:
Wanting to leave EU.
Voting for several controversial issue during her time in the Tory party coalition.
Doing the exact opposite she promises.


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## Backache (Nov 19, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Does anyone actually watch these election night programmes..?
A DIY vasectomy with a rusty coathanger would be nearer the top of my " must do" list
		
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Aylesbury is quite a long way but I'll see what I can do and will bring the coathanger.


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2019)

Backache said:



			Aylesbury is quite a long way but I'll see what I can do and will bring the coathanger.
		
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Hey..it's DIY so leave it!!


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Hell yes!

We have a meal with friends, then put on late night nibbles and open a few more bottles. We have, or used to have, a great night's fun watching it all unfold. Its Eurovision on steroids.
		
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You're getting too good at this Bri..I'm not sure if you mean it or not


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## Old Skier (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			There you go again, I can assure you that I have no more right wing tendencies than I have left.

But if it suits your narrow minded view that anyone not 100% in agreement with you is a right winger so be it.
		
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Don't upset the Marxist anyone without their views = people to the right of Gengis Khan


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			There you go again, I can assure you that I have no more right wing tendencies than I have left.

But if it suits your narrow minded view that anyone not 100% in agreement with you is a right winger so be it.
		
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You have reacted to someone else taking offence to your post ... imagine if there was constant left wing posts and condescending remarks, you would probably call it out .. in fact you have.
But then imagine if it was multiplied by 10 .. and it was deeply offensive ?


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Imurg said:



			You're getting too good at this Bri..I'm not sure if you mean it or not

Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You have reacted to someone else taking offence to your post ... imagine if there was constant left wing posts and condescending remarks, you would probably call it out .. in fact you have.
But then imagine if it was multiplied by 10 .. and it was deeply offensive ?
		
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What on earth are you talking about?

Today was the first time I had posted on this thread. 

On a previous occasion I have stated that, in some respects, I envy the politically committed as they do not have to concern themselves with grey areas. 

I have, in my lifetime, voted for each of the three leading UK parties and on Brexit I not only voted Remain but canvassed support for the vote.

However,  I am now strongly in favour of  Leave as that was the majority decision and should be honoured. 

No doubt in your eyes I am a rabid right winger but I know the truth.


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## chrisd (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What on earth are you talking about?

Today was the first time I had posted on this thread. 

On a previous occasion I have stated that, in some respects, I envy the politically committed as they do not have to concern themselves with grey areas. 

I have, in my lifetime, voted for each of the three leading UK parties and on Brexit I not only voted Remain but canvassed support for the vote.

However,  I am now strongly in favour of  Leave as that was the majority decision and should be honoured. 

No doubt in your eyes I am a rabid right winger but I know the truth.
		
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I've only ever voted for 2 party's, Conservatives and Tory's ðŸ˜‹ðŸ˜‹


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Hell yes!

We have a meal with friends, then put on late night nibbles and open a few more bottles. We have, or used to have, a great night's fun watching it all unfold. *Its Eurovision on steroids.*

Click to expand...

I like that analogy


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## Don Barzini (Nov 19, 2019)

I really wish there was an option for "NONE OF THE ABOVE" on this GE ballot paper. Never have I been more disillusioned with our political representatives than I am at the moment.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Barzini said:



			I really wish there was an option for "NONE OF THE ABOVE" on this GE ballot paper. Never have I been more disillusioned with our political representatives than I am at the moment.
		
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I have less than a week to decide, postal vote, and I have a huge vested interest in Remain but I'm leaning towards not voting. I want Remain with a big R but the election is about way more than one topic and I don't believe any party can deliver anything like on enough of those issues.


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## 2blue (Nov 19, 2019)

HOW TO CHOOSE A GREAT LEADER
(by Suzy Kassem)
Choose a leader who will invest in......
Building bridges, not walls.
Books, not weapons.
Mortality, not corruption .
Intellectualism and wisdom, not ignorance
Stability, not fear or terror.
Peace, not chaos.
Love, not hate.
Convergence, not segregation.
Tolerance, not discrimination.
Fairness, not hypocrisy.
Substance, not superficiality.
Character, not immaturity.
Transparency, not secrecy.
Justice, not lawlessness.
Environmental improvement and preservation,
not destruction
Truth, not lies. 

The question is....   are the UK public capable of ignoring the media bias when they make their judgement or is it just so engrained in our culture?


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## 2blue (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I have less than a week to decide, postal vote, and I have a huge vested interest in Remain but I'm leaning towards not voting. I want Remain with a big R *but the election is about way more than one topic and I don't believe any party can deliver anything like on enough of those issues*.
		
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So that simplifies things Bri........  just which R do you go for??


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## Pro Zach (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			She's not even an MP. However, I do feel Ian Blackford and Jo Swinson hould be there. There's a chance of a hung parliament, and it would be good to hear their take on things.
		
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Jo Swinson should be there because she is the leader of a party with candidates representing the whole of the UK. The only point of a leadership debate is so the people can here the ideas and polices of the leaders of parties who could, if they convince people to vote for them, form a government.

Ian Blackford could convince everyone that their policies are the best and all the other parties policies are terrible but the vast majority of the people canâ€™t vote for them anyway. It doesnâ€™t matter how brilliant they are, they donâ€™t have enough candidates to form a government so their ideas of how to run the country are irrelevant.

If you think the debate should include people who donâ€™t represent a large enough demographic to form a government then all independents should be there.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			HOW TO CHOOSE A GREAT LEADER
(by Suzy Kassem)
Choose a leader who will invest in......
Building bridges, not walls.
Books, not weapons.
Mortality, not corruption .
Intellectualism and wisdom, not ignorance
Stability, not fear or terror.
Peace, not chaos.
Love, not hate.
Convergence, not segregation.
Tolerance, not discrimination.
Fairness, not hypocrisy.
Substance, not superficiality.
Character, not immaturity.
Transparency, not secrecy.
Justice, not lawlessness.
Environmental improvement and preservation,
not destruction
Truth, not lies.

The question is....   are the UK public capable of ignoring the media bias when they make their judgement or is it just so engrained in our culture?
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest that it is not about the UK public but more about the political parties and leaders.

Do any of them fit those criteria?

Certainly not in my eyes but others may see it differently.


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## Pro Zach (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but Nicola Sturgeon certainly is the leader of a UK national party, the fact that they choose not to stand candidates outwith Scotland is simply their choice..
Mind you I can easily understand why Johnson and Corbyn are too scared to debate with her 

Click to expand...

No, the fact that they choose not stand candidates outside Scotland means she is certainly not the leader of UK national party. Being called the Scottish National Party is a big clue that they represent the nation of Scotland not the UK. Not fielding candidates anywhere other than Scotland proves that they are only representing the Nation of Scotland and are therefore not a UK national party.

Why are you suggesting they are a UK national party when their whole ideology and purpose of existing is not to be.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			No, the fact that they choose not stand candidates outside Scotland means she is certainly not the leader of UK national party. Being called the Scottish National Party is a big clue that they represent the nation of Scotland not the UK. Not fielding candidates anywhere other than Scotland proves that they are only representing the Nation of Scotland and are therefore not a UK national party.

Why are you suggesting they are a UK national party when their whole ideology and purpose of existing is not to be.
		
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Well reasoned.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			So that simplifies things Bri........  just which R do you go for?? 

Click to expand...

There is only one R in Remain... but I would like a Remain that sees the UK take centre stage in the EU. I want the UK to be one of the drivers, not just one of the supplicant rule takers. I still believe the concept is good but I do feel it needs change. If it didn't, why all the fuss across many of the members?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There is only one R in Remain... but I would like a Remain that sees the UK take centre stage in the EU. I want the UK to be one of the drivers, not just one of the supplicant rule takers. I still believe the concept is good but I do feel it needs change. If it didn't, why all the fuss across many of the members?
		
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Exactly mirrored my feelings towards the EU and reasons for voting and supporting Remain. 

But sadly it wasn't to be and, as I said elsewhere,  my respect for the democratic process means I want the  politicians to deliver the outcome for which the majority voted.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There is only one R in Remain... but I would like a Remain that sees the UK take centre stage in the EU. I want the UK to be one of the drivers, not just one of the supplicant rule takers. I still believe the concept is good but I do feel it needs change. If it didn't, why all the fuss across many of the members?
		
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I agree with that but sadly unless you are a federalist in the current EU then you will not be able to influence much as many poorer Nations gain so much from it.


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## 2blue (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Exactly mirrored my feelings towards the EU and reasons for voting and supporting Remain.

But sadly it wasn't to be and, as I said elsewhere,  my respect for the democratic process means I want the  politicians* to deliver the outcome for which the majority voted*.
		
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So what's your crystal ball saying......  No Deal...  Bojo's deal?? or any-old answer??


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## robinthehood (Nov 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You well know that Boris meant what he said about the 31st, he was thwarted by the underhand dealings of shister remoaners, so failing to deliver his "promise" was ultimately not in his power and not his fault, although I dont  remember  the word "promise" being used by him 

Time for compromise hasn't come, leave did win and th
ere is simply no excuse not to enact the will of the 17.4m. I'm happy with a no deal Brexit if the EU wont give us a really good deal, it shouldn't take long to sort a 'free trade deal' but if Barnier wants to sod us about no deal is fine.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
It's because him and his mates kept voting against brexit..
You seem to easily forget the actual facts


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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Jo Swinson should be there because she is the leader of a party with candidates representing the whole of the UK. The only point of a leadership debate is so the people can here the ideas and polices of the leaders of parties who could, if they convince people to vote for them, form a government.

Ian Blackford could convince everyone that their policies are the best and all the other parties policies are terrible but the vast majority of the people canâ€™t vote for them anyway. It doesnâ€™t matter how brilliant they are, they donâ€™t have enough candidates to form a government so their ideas of how to run the country are irrelevant.

If you think the debate should include people who donâ€™t represent a large enough demographic to form a government then all independents should be there.
		
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Lib dems only have 19 MP of whch half a defectors from other parties, i've got more chance of forming a Government TBH, SNP have double the MP's but i suppose as Nicola isn't an MP so maybe she shouldn't , but is the head of the Gov of Scotland, we should get a say


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Lib dems only have 19 MP of whch half a defectors from other parties, i've got more chance of forming a Government TBH, SNP have double the MP's but i suppose as Nicola isn't an MP so maybe she shouldn't , but is the head of the Gov of Scotland, we should get a say
		
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Jo Swinson might be asked to be part of a coalition govt. And Ian Blackford is the SNP leader in the House of Commons. I feel it should be him in on the debate.


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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Jo Swinson might be asked to be part of a coalition govt*. And Ian Blackford is the SNP leader in the House of Commons. I feel it should be him in on the debate.
		
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lets hope not.... not after last time.... anyway she won't be an MP to be asked to with any luck


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## spongebob59 (Nov 19, 2019)




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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			So what's your crystal ball saying......  No Deal...  Bojo's deal?? or any-old answer??
		
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Good question that has arisen as a result of the prolonging of the exit process. 

Back in 2016 there was no discussion of any deal and my understanding, as a Remainer, was that we would leave asap and negotiate an ongoing relationship having left. 

Obviously there would have to have been a short term interim arrangement but sadly none of those involved appeared either willing or able to deliver this outcome. 

Therefore,  in answer to your question I would say that No Deal is the nearest to fulfilling the desired outcome. 

Certainly do not think that any further delay would be a good idea since the country has stood still (at best) for three years now and many other issues gone unaddressed.


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2019)

Well the Momentum crowd have decide to mobilise their supporters to target specific Tory seats.

Since the creators, (Jon Lansman,, Adam Klug, Emma Rees and James Schneider; none of which are MPs), are deciding the Labour Party approach; Labour should re-brand to the "Momentum Party"


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			No, the fact that they choose not stand candidates outside Scotland means she is certainly not the leader of UK national party. Being called the Scottish National Party is a big clue that they represent the nation of Scotland not the UK. Not fielding candidates anywhere other than Scotland proves that they are only representing the Nation of Scotland and are therefore not a UK national party.

Why are you suggesting they are a UK national party when their whole ideology and purpose of existing is not to be.
		
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How about because at the moment they are a political party within the UK.
Or is that too simple for you.


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## ger147 (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about because at the moment they are a political party within the UK.
Or is that too simple for you.
		
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There are loads of parties within the UK that are not being represented tonight.  You are of course free to think it's not fair but only the 2 people in the race to the be the next PM have been invited and according to the courts there is nothing stopping ITV staging such a debate.

So suck it up and get over it...


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## Fade and Die (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about because at the moment they are a political party within the UK.
Or is that too simple for you.
		
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Much like the Monster Raving Loony Party?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well the Momentum crowd have decide to mobilise their supporters to target specific Tory seats.

Since the creators, (Jon Lansman,, Adam Klug, Emma Rees and James Schneider; none of which are MPs), are deciding the Labour Party approach; Labour should re-brand to the "Momentum Party"
		
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Just been sent this link which isn't likely to endear Labour to anyone with any links to the military. It's been claimed it's satire but I'm not sure offering "free prosthetic limbs" for soldiers and calling them "professional murderers" is something that they should be doing.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/03/free...idHJleWFebbwG75iNtMy5bbWKmm453JQZlt5e2Az4XY7A 

NB - it is a bit sweary so anyone easily offended probably should avoid it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Jo Swinson might be asked to be part of a coalition govt. And Ian Blackford is the SNP leader in the House of Commons. I feel it should be him in on the debate.
		
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Both Labour and Tory leaders have said they will not for a coalition with anyone but as both seem to have short memories ðŸ¤”


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

ger147 said:



			There are loads of parties within the UK that are not being represented tonight.  You are of course free to think it's not fair but only the 2 people in the race to the be the next PM have been invited and according to the courts there is nothing stopping ITV staging such a debate.

So suck it up and get over it...
		
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No there is not
SNP are the third largest party at Westminster and may hold the balance of a hung parliament. but they are being denied a voice.
Not exactly what you would expect from a so called civilised country.

He ho England only leaders debate about to start now If they both start slagging off the Lib Dems and the SNP because of the Brexit situation that is totally wrong..


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Much like the Monster Raving Loony Party?
		
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No, the SNP have 35 MP's the MRLP have none.
Jeez the objections are getting a bit thin and weird.


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2019)

Why do the SNP want to speak to the rest of the UK?
They're not putting up candidates outside Scotland so why do we need to listen to their views on the GE?
It's the same with Plaid Cyndi...nobody outside Wales needs to know
Campaign on your own turf and if that turf is only Scotland or Wales then you don't get a look-in at a National debate
If your turf is the whole of the UK then you should get a seat at the table when it comes to national debates.


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## ger147 (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No there is not..
		
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Yes there is!!

For example, the Lib Dems, the Green Party, the DUP, all of whom had MP's in the last parliament in Westminster.  None of those parties are represented in tonight's debate, only the 2 prospective PM's.

As I said earlier, you are free to be unhappy about it but please refrain from lying...


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Why do the SNP want to speak to the rest of the UK?
They're not putting up candidates outside Scotland so why do we need to listen to their views on the GE?
It's the same with Plaid Cyndi...nobody outside Wales needs to know
Campaign on your own turf and if that turf is only Scotland or Wales then you don't get a look-in at a National debate
If your turf is the whole of the UK then you should get a seat at the table when it comes to national debates.
		
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Whats to stop Corbyn or Johnson proposing a coalition if neither gets enough votes to form a majority govt? Personally, I think any party that might be large enough to form part of any govt, coalition or otherwise, should be included.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP are the third largest party at Westminster and may hold the balance of a hung parliament. but they are being denied a voice.
		
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Corbyn has just stated that there won't be a coalition with the SNP and has called the idea "nonsense". Doesn't look very much like the SNP will be holding the balance of a hung parliament after all.


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## Cherry13 (Nov 19, 2019)

What an absolute shambles this debate is. The host is appalling, and the ridiculous little amount of time theyâ€™ve given is pointless.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Corbyn has just stated that there won't be a coalition with the SNP and has called the idea "nonsense". Doesn't look very much like the SNP will be holding the balance of a hung parliament after all.
		
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Are you aware that today the Tory Scottish Secretary has offered Scotland the same deal as Labour.
They will all change their tune once the results are in.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson making an utter arse of himself for mine.


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## 4LEX (Nov 19, 2019)

Cringing here at the host. Just awful and totally out of her depth. Genuine and valid answers are being talked over due to her trying to allow them a set time to answer 

Just give Sky these debates.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware that today the Tory Scottish Secretary has offered Scotland the same deal as Labour.
They will all change their tune once the results are in.
		
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I've no idea what the Tory Scottish Secretary has offered or even if it's within his/her power to offer such a thing. Are you suggesting that Mr Corbyn might not be telling the truth when he says there will be no coalition?


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## Mudball (Nov 19, 2019)

The debate is lame... the host is not doing a good job.. get someone like Marr to roast these liars. 

BTW.. food unwrapped on C4 is more engaging


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2019)

Whilst people are getting annoyed by the inevitability irritating debate Wales look like they will be qualifying for the Euros ðŸ‘. I think I spent my hour more wisely.


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## patricks148 (Nov 19, 2019)

Good to hear there wasn't a loaded audience on this debate... Though Boris shown himself as the fast he is


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## 2blue (Nov 19, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Good question that has arisen as a result of the prolonging of the exit process.

Back in 2016 there was no discussion of any deal and my understanding, as a Remainer, was that we would leave asap and negotiate an ongoing relationship having left.

Obviously there would have to have been a short term interim arrangement but sadly none of those involved appeared either willing or able to deliver this outcome.

Therefore,  in answer to your question I would say that No Deal is the nearest to fulfilling the desired outcome.

Certainly do not think that any further delay would be a good idea since the country has stood still (at best) for three years now and many other issues gone unaddressed.
		
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Crystal ball for sale....  needs some attention.... haha


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea what the Tory Scottish Secretary has offered or even if it's within his/her power to offer such a thing. Are you suggesting that Mr Corbyn might not be telling the truth when he says there will be no coalition?
		
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Of course, a whiff of power and they will be in like Flynn


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2019)

What is it Boris doesn't understand about Corbyn's position on Brexit?  He made himself perfectly clear & it's a position that I might find myself in agreement with.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Good to hear there wasn't a loaded audience on this debate... Though Boris shown himself as the fast he is
		
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Johnson was totally out of his depth, spluttering and mumbling away like a drunk Billy Bunter.
Corbyn gave a decent performance as a much more serious politician


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2019)

Not watching it. Expect its like PMQ's without 650 braying idiots on benches. Sticking with the Wales match.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2019)

didn't see the debate and listening to the replys, i didn't miss owt. Why oh why TV keeps putting lame duck presenters on to host these shows and QT is beyond me.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 19, 2019)

See the Tory Party campaigns twitter account had changed its name to FactCheckUk and is claiming they won the debate and retweeting sycophantic tweets. I wish I could say this was a joke but it is true.

You know if some foreign despot was doing this we'd all think what a sorry state they are in. This is what we have now been reduced to. Embarrassing. See they have changed it back now as I suspect it backfired on them.

Here's what the proper fact checkers had to say. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196887778736390146


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## backwoodsman (Nov 19, 2019)

Live debate. Host was dire, both participants were dire. Whole thing, IMO, was a farce.  I think the parties not invited/participating were best off not being there.


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## Beezerk (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm glad I watched Masterchef, sounds like it was predictably awful.


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## Kellfire (Nov 19, 2019)

1-0 Labour from the debate. 2-0 Labour from the attempt to deceive the public by the Tories on Twitter. Pathetic.


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## Beezerk (Nov 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			1-0 Labour from the debate. 2-0 Labour from the attempt to deceive the public by the Tories on Twitter. Pathetic.
		
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Corbyn's glasses 1 - Corbyn 0 it would appear


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## harpo_72 (Nov 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			1-0 Labour from the debate. 2-0 Labour from the attempt to deceive the public by the Tories on Twitter. Pathetic.
		
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They know they can get away with it though.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course, a whiff of power and they will be in like Flynn
		
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Not a direct reply to your post but continuing the discussion...........

Assuming we get another hung parliament and there is no coalition where does that leave us? If we accept that situation the likely result will be Conservatives as the biggest party (with no majority), Labour in 2nd place, SNP 3rd and Lib Dems 4th what happens in terms of moving forward? Do we essentially have a puppet government that can't get any of their policies through parliament? We would then have the possibility of a Remain majority in parliament with Labour (?), SNP and Lib Dem, could they then take control of parliamentary business and bring forward a 2nd referendum against the wishes of the government?


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## Cherry13 (Nov 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			1-0 Labour from the debate. 2-0 Labour from the attempt to deceive the public by the Tories on Twitter. Pathetic.
		
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Not sure Iâ€™d agree with 1-0 on the debate. If anything a 0-0.  Both were poot


harpo_72 said:



			They know they can get away with it though.
		
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Or itâ€™s another â€˜dead catâ€™ to distract from the farce of a debate.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2019)

Cherry13 said:



			Not sure Iâ€™d agree with 1-0 on the debate. If anything a 0-0.  Both were poot

Or itâ€™s another â€˜dead catâ€™ to distract from the farce of a debate.
		
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Is the correct answer.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2019)

Good question there on the ITV Elections Interviews programme. Paraphrasing but...... "If Brexit doesn't happen and we remain then does that blunt the SNP demand for a 2nd independence referendum as their position is based on Scotland being taken out of the EU against its wishes"?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 19, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			didn't see the debate and listening to the replys, i didn't miss owt. Why oh why TV keeps putting lame duck presenters on to host these shows and QT is beyond me.
		
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Andrew Neil must have been busy!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 19, 2019)

None of the above for me!
They were both poor imo
So was the host.
Waste of an hour.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, the SNP have 35 MP's the MRLP have none.
Jeez the objections are getting a bit thin and weird.
		
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What moral right does a party ,that wants to take a region of a country away from the government of that country and form a new country, have to interfere and make any influence on the future of a country that they want to be no part of?
When Scotland is a country ( which it isn't yet as defined by the U N) then it can talk and deal with the United Kingdom on the basis of being a sovereign nation in its own right. Until then they should keep schtum on matters that only concern the Country they no longer wish to be part of. They should only comment on and interest themselves in matters pertaining to the question of the separation of Scotland from the United Kingdom.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2019)

2blue said:



			Crystal ball for sale....  needs some attention.... haha
		
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Too clever for your own good perhaps?

I have not attempted to use a crystal ball as you put it merely expressed which option I think fulfills the result of the referendum.


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## Piece (Nov 19, 2019)

Average debate with no real time for the leaders to provide detail as they were cut short. The audience was too â€˜whoopy whoopyâ€™ for my liking. I didnâ€™t hear anything Iâ€™d hadnâ€™t heard before, apart from Labour saying they will negotiate a sensible Brexit deal in three months. If the current government took over two years to get where we are now, Iâ€™m missing how Labour will do it in three months?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			What is it Boris doesn't understand about Corbyn's position on Brexit?  He made himself perfectly clear & it's a position that I might find myself in agreement with.
		
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Surely its that Corbyn won't say whether he would campaign for his own proposed negotiated deal with the EU or campaign to Leave the EU.


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## Pro Zach (Nov 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just on that little statement.  It absolutely is.  So why do Tories continually parrot the _'We will Get Brexit Done in 2020 - Labour will inflict two referendum upon us'_  line - when the audience is the UK electorate.  I'm not actually sure that Labour are suggesting that Scotland will have a referendum in 2020 if Sturgeon requests one.  But hey. 

Of course we know it is aimed at all of who are tired with what has happened since the last referendum - and the 'Brendas of Bristol' of this world who can't be bothered with too much democracy.  So let's spin a little deceit to the English/Welsh/NI electorate about Labour plans. 

The issue is pretty obvious.  There is an electorate of about 4m in Scotland and the main political battle in Scotland will not be addressed *at all* by a Tory v Labour Head to Head debate - indeed such a H2H is almost irrelevant for many if not most of the Scottish electorate.
		
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It is up to each individual how they interpret what the Tories mean by the statement you quote or any statement by any politician. But this has nothing to do with my original post.

I disagree with the issue you say is obvious. It is a UK election so we only have a UK electorate. There is no Scottish electorate in a UK election. Location, race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, shoe size or anything else does not make you part of a different electorate. You are part of the UK electorate because it is a UK election. Gay people are not the gay electorate they are gay members of the UK electorate.

H2H may well seem irrelevant if you view yourself as the Scottish electorate. If however you viewed yourself as part of the UK electorate then you might consider whether it is beneficial to your fellow citizens or the nation as a whole.


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## Pro Zach (Nov 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about because at the moment they are a political party within the UK.
Or is that too simple for you.
		
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Yes, it does seem a bit simple to me because â€˜nationalâ€™ would require a representation or presence in the whole nation for the definition to make sense to me.



But if we canâ€™t agree on the definition I will just use yours and my argument will remain the same. The SNP does not have candidates in enough seats to ever form a UK government. The leaders debates are national debates for the parties who could form a government if they can convince the people to vote for them. The debate is for them to tell us how they would run the country if elected. It is pointless for the SNP to tell us what they would do if we elect them to government because it is not possible for us to do that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Yes, it does seem a bit simple to me because â€˜nationalâ€™ would require a representation or presence in the whole nation for the definition to make sense to me.



But if we canâ€™t agree on the definition I will just use yours and my argument will remain the same. The SNP does not have candidates in enough seats to ever form a UK government. The leaders debates are national debates for the parties who could form a government if they can convince the people to vote for them. The debate is for them to tell us how they would run the country if elected. It is pointless for the SNP to tell us what they would do if we elect them to government because it is not possible for us to do that.
		
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But they can tell the UK what they would do if they formed a coalition government/opposition.
That is how the antiquated daft Westminster system works.
PR would see a totally different line up, much more representative of how the people vote.
Works well in Scotland.
So well that Labour and even the Tories  are continuing to steal many of the Scottish Governments best policies.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			H2H may well seem irrelevant if you view yourself as the Scottish electorate. If however you viewed yourself as part of the UK electorate then you might consider whether it is beneficial to your fellow citizens or the nation as a whole.
		
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Insert Borders railway [Paid for by SG] with HS2 [paid for by UKG] and reverse Scottish and UK and see how that reads.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Sorry to chuck petrol on this, but I did not know what the DUP stood for. I do now, but I think we do need to understand the coalition factions better.


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## Kellfire (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sorry to chuck petrol on this, but I did not know what the DUP stood for. I do now, but I think we do need to understand the coalition factions better.
		
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They stand for bigotry and hate.


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## Wolf (Nov 20, 2019)

Just watched the debate on replay, that's an hour of my life I won't get back.. The host was awful then there were the mass debtors... Dodging question by sticking to their one pertinent point they're using to fight the election with Boris and Brexit, Corbyn and the NHS no direct answers to anything other than spinning it back to the main weapon in their armoury. Should've just let the little ones watch Cbeebies when I got up instead.


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## User62651 (Nov 20, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Just watched the debate on replay, that's an hour of my life I won't get back.. The host was awful then there were the mass debtors... Dodging question by sticking to their one pertinent point they're using to fight the election with Boris and Brexit, Corbyn and the NHS no direct answers to anything other than spinning it back to the main weapon in their armoury. Should've just let the little ones watch Cbeebies when I got up instead.
		
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Couldn't watch it, saw the lowlights on the news though, as Sky lady said it's a case if who is least repellent for the electorate to choose a PM which is fairly depressing, both candidates laughed at by audience, what a choice. in my area it's either SNP or Lib Dem for MP, Labour/Cons have no propsects at all, appreciate the tv 'debate' was for the likely next PM but it seemed a bit biased in terms of influencing voters with only the 2 participants thing, for many it's the 2 party system that's wrong with UK politics. 
Bin these Americanised tv debates, achieve very little imho.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Couldn't watch it, saw the lowlights on the news though, as Sky lady said it's a case if who is least repellent for the electorate to choose a PM which is fairly depressing, both candidates laughed at by audience, what a choice. in my area it's either SNP or Lib Dem for MP, Labour/Cons have no propsects at all, appreciate the tv 'debate' was for the likely next PM but it seemed a bit biased in terms of influencing voters with only the 2 participants thing, for many it's the 2 party system that's wrong with UK politics.
Bin these Americanised tv debates, achieve very little imho.
		
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I did not watch it, but it sounds like they need a paxman like figure who will pull them back to the question.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Couldn't watch it, saw the lowlights on the news though, as Sky lady said it's a case if who is least repellent for the electorate to choose a PM which is fairly depressing, both candidates laughed at by audience, what a choice. in my area it's either SNP or Lib Dem for MP, Labour/Cons have no propsects at all, appreciate the tv 'debate' was for the likely next PM but it seemed a bit biased in terms of influencing voters with only the 2 participants thing, for many it's the 2 party system that's wrong with UK politics.
Bin these Americanised tv debates, achieve very little imho.
		
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Agree with everything bar the last sentance. The debates are the only time we as voters have a chance to see the "leaders" properly roasted. The hosts are atrocious. They are the equivalent of Corbyn and Bojo. They should be ripped to bits, and there not.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			They stand for bigotry and hate.
		
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This is what worries me should we not have a choice in this matter as we could have an unpleasant extreme minority affecting our government. Or should there be a rule set in place that says the third highest makes a decision on who they will govern with? 

Would love to know the total cost of the DUP alliance.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2019)

Didn't bother watching as neither will be on my ballot paper...  

They are both lowlifes what more do you need to know?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Didn't bother watching as neither will be on my ballot paper...  

They are both lowlifes what more do you need to know?
		
Click to expand...

Lottery numbers please


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I did not watch it, but it sounds like they need a paxman like figure who will pull them back to the question.
		
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It definitely needed someone who had a brain! Getting them to shake hands and promise to be nice to each other and asking about the Royal family - absolute nonsense


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It definitely needed someone who had a brain! Getting them to shake hands and promise to be nice to each other and asking about the Royal family - absolute nonsense
		
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Made me cringe.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 20, 2019)

did anyone watch the interviews at 10? No matter what you think of him Nigel was THE standout leader of the night. Can you believe him? Hell yes. When asked what does he do personally about carbon? His response? "well I fly and drive a car so I can't really answer that" 

How honest can you be?


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 20, 2019)

and all this taxing flights rubbish by the greens and yellows only means that the rich (as usual) aren't affected. If they want to introduce something to kerb flights then issue everyone with two flight vouchers per year, once used that's it. Got one left over? Sell it to the highest bidder!!!!


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

I didn't watch the debate, and by the sound of many comments it panned out as expected. However, I've seen a number of interviews since in which various party spokespeople defend their leaders. The aggression displayed by some of those politicians, and the downright lies, just beggars belief. James Cleverley's responses were quite revealing - not someone I'd want to invite for tea. As for Rebecca Long-Bailey... just where has honesty and integrity gone? There's barely a sign of it coming out of the mouths of any politicians.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 20, 2019)

As for BJ and Corbin. Utter rubbish. VERY disappointed with BJ. Yes, ram home the Brexit thing, but once the questions are on a different subject tell the electorate your plans. Did he? Nope! Actually thought Corbin, started with the audience against him, but as BJ floundered actually won the debate overall. I'll bet Nige is regretting his decision to not stand against BJ in the south. After last night Brexit party would walk it.


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## jp5 (Nov 20, 2019)

If the Tories aren't bothered about deceiving us over their "FactChecking'' twitter account, wonder what else they're not being truthful about 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197060916811976705


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			did anyone watch the interviews at 10? No matter what you think of him Nigel was THE standout leader of the night. Can you believe him? Hell yes. When asked what does he do personally about carbon? His response? "well I fly and drive a car so I can't really answer that"

How honest can you be?
		
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I am not a fan, but I caught a bit of it. 
His delivery is superb, his tactics are sensible in that he comes a across as honest, straight talking and has an empathy for the workers.

The others should take note, itâ€™s not going to be about what they say but how they say it .. talking about peopleâ€™s perceived issues and showing compassion and offering up solutions will win more friends etc .. slag each other off and attacking others policy isnâ€™t. 

I think JC is ahead of BJ on this but JW needs to watch and learn as well .. there was a lesson there.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

jp5 said:



			If the Tories aren't bothered about deceiving us over their "FactChecking'' twitter account, wonder what else they're not being truthful about 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197060916811976705

Click to expand...

Canâ€™t imagine that is the right way to go ... they are in danger of losing votes to Nigel ! They need to be a bit more wise.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It definitely needed someone who had a brain! Getting them to shake hands and promise to be nice to each other and asking about the Royal family - absolute nonsense
		
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I donâ€™t want to see them tearing each other apart. But I want to see them made to answer the question and justify their position.. by a 3rd party who is neutral. You could have it as 2 separate shows but each has the same question and the answers are then dissected and drive more questions to reveal the flaws.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2019)

Is Johnson dim or thick skinned.
The 20,000 police officers and 40 new hospitals quotes have been proved to be absolute total piffle yet there he was last night repeating them.
No wonder the audience laughed at him with his 'trust'comment.

The police numbers are actually 1,000 down on 2010, so -1000.
The hospital is actually no new hospitals, 6 to be re-furbished and no funding in place for the other 34,


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t want to see them tearing each other apart. But I want to see them made to answer the question and justify their position.. by a 3rd party who is neutral. You could have it as 2 separate shows but each has the same question and the answers are then dissected and drive more questions to reveal the flaws.
		
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For me the whole thing was rubbish. The answers were always cut short, she seemed to give JC more time than BJ but that could be just me. I absolutely agree that the same questions asked in separate shows would possibly work better. There were loads of more important questions that should have been asked before worrying about the royal family and only allowing about a minute to answer a complex question like on the NHS is a nonsense


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## drdel (Nov 20, 2019)

You know its 90% bull in these debates and it won't change minds so have a break, relax, take a deep breath and get out and have a game of golf and get your priorities right !!


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t want to see them tearing each other apart. But I want to see them made to answer the question and justify their position.. by a 3rd party who is neutral. You could have it as 2 separate shows but each has the same question and the answers are then dissected and drive more questions to reveal the flaws.
		
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I do like the idea of 2 separate Q&A sessions. A set of simple questions and an interviewer who isn't afraid to keep pulling them back to the questions when the politicians try and deflect.

I'd also like to see the scheduling flexible up to one hour, and for the parties to be told that if any politician strays off the questions 3 times the show will be cut short. Can you imagine the negative publicity that would follow if a party had the plug pulled?


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## Piece (Nov 20, 2019)

I would like to see a show where independent experts go through each main parties manifesto, one major issue at a time, and debate the how's and wherefores of how it would work, be financed and what it could mean. At this stage, I'd cut out the public audience bit as some of them are more of a problem than the MPs themselves. Then later, we can have a reasoned debate between leaders with a viewing public that knows a bit more about what's on offer. I just feel there are numbers, wish-lists and fantasies being throwing around by all parties to gain a leg-up, without any of the important details being available to the masses.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Last few posts sounds like we should tell the media this is what we want to see ðŸ™‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

I was out and so only caught the last 15-20mins or so and tbh wasn't paying much attention.  My 'impression' of what I saw was that Corbyn was more concise and to the point - Johnson was much less so (I don't think anyone would have been surprised at the nature of the delivery of his responses) and so often found he had to keep talking over the presenter trying to get to his point (which always seemed to head off towards Brexit) once his time was up.


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## Pro Zach (Nov 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Insert Borders railway [Paid for by SG] with HS2 [paid for by UKG] and reverse Scottish and UK and see how that reads.
		
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It reads pretty much the same to me, but we obviously see things from a very different point of view. I view the UK as a whole and all the people in it the same, regardless of geographic location or anything else. I think successive UK governments have done a piss poor job of investing in infrastructure throughout the UK. I donâ€™t differentiate between lack of investment in Scotland, North East England, Cumbria, Wales or anywhere else.

I can understand why people in Scotland might think independence will cure the problem by getting rid of the UK government. I would personally feel like that would be saying, â€œIâ€™m all right jack and sod the people in the rest of the UKâ€. I will point out that my feelings do not dictate right or wrong and I am not making judgement on people who feel differently.

I actually think HS2 is a poor use of public money and should be scrapped. I donâ€™t know anything about the borders railway so canâ€™t have an opinion on whether it should have been financed by the UK. It could possibly fall into one of the many criticisms I have over the general Scottish arguments I hear, which is essentially, passing the buck. You demand devolution and then complain you have to do it yourself. Then we have the corollary of this were people believe you should do it because of devolution, but you canâ€™t. Resulting in the usual propaganda, fake news, and lies, allowing everyone to call each other names in a pointless argument mainly based on ignorance.

Anybody want a drink before the war?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			For me the whole thing was rubbish. The answers were always cut short, she seemed to give JC more time than BJ but that could be just me. I absolutely agree that the same questions asked in separate shows would possibly work better. There were loads of more important questions that should have been asked before worrying about the royal family and only allowing about a minute to answer a complex question like on the NHS is a nonsense
		
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Not sure if this is 100% accurate.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 20, 2019)

Abacus school of numbers ?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-dawn-butler-gets-homelessness-figures-wrong/

BTW where is Ababcus ? seems to have gone MIA


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is Johnson dim or thick skinned.
The 20,000 police officers and 40 new hospitals quotes have been proved to be absolute total piffle yet there he was last night repeating them.
No wonder the audience laughed at him with his 'trust'comment.

The police numbers are actually 1,000 down on 2010, so -1000.
The hospital is actually no new hospitals, 6 to be re-furbished and no funding in place for the other 34,
		
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And can Johnson be trusted?

Well at one point Corbyn said there would be a border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland that would require checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea and Johnson said 'On the contrary' and went on to deny that there would be any checks.  And that is quite simply not true.  Call it whatever you like - the Big L if you like - but it was simply not true.

Meanwhile Raab witters on this morning justifying the Tories FactsCheck twitter account.  When the truth of it, and a truth that we all know - is that it was as much a deceit as I would be were I knocking on doors claiming to be a Tory Party canvasser and answering questions but putting, say, the Labour Party position.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Abacus school of numbers ?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-dawn-butler-gets-homelessness-figures-wrong/

BTW where is Ababcus ? seems to have gone MIA
		
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Hopefully locked in a room with JR-M...
Both, hopefully, never to be seen again...


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## drdel (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And can Johnson be trusted?

Well at one point Corbyn said there would be a border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland that would require checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea and Johnson said 'On the contrary' and went on to deny that there would be any checks.  And that is quite simply not true.  Call it whatever you like - the Big L if you like - but it was simply not true.

Meanwhile Raab witters on this morning justifying the Tories FactsCheck twitter account.  When the truth of it, and a truth that we all know - is that it was as much a deceit as I would be were I knocking on doors claiming to be a Tory Party canvasser and answering questions but putting, say, the Labour Party position.
		
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All this vitriol and personification ignores the fact that there are 600+mps, a Cabinet and a large number of Goverment departments who actually do most of the work.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And can Johnson be trusted?

Well at one point Corbyn said there would be a border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland that would require checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea and Johnson said 'On the contrary' and went on to deny that there would be any checks.  And that is quite simply not true.  Call it whatever you like - the Big L if you like - but it was simply not true.

Meanwhile Raab witters on this morning justifying the Tories FactsCheck twitter account.  When the truth of it, and a truth that we all know - is that it was as much a deceit as I would be were I knocking on doors claiming to be a Tory Party canvasser and answering questions but putting, say, the Labour Party position.
		
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Aye, it's a bit much when the old government attempts to scam the public in a desperate attempt to get in again.
What on earth were they thinking, probaby another Cumming plan, did they really think they would get away with it.
Re canvassing........the Tory and Labour MSP's are clueless at what is devolved or not to Scotland. Nicola has fun reminding them every week at FMQ
God knows what their canvassers will be like.
Lady Doon is desperate for a Tory to ring our bell.
I shall invite him/her in and put the kettle on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			All this vitriol and personification ignores the fact that there are 600+mps, a Cabinet and a large number of Goverment departments who actually do most of the work.
		
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What vitriol? The guy was blatantly lying on TV...in an election debate - and that is just OK?  The Tories will win the election *because* of Johnson and *because *of Corbyn.  These individuals matter massively - and therefore so does what they say.  What did you hear throughout the debate - Johnson attacking Corbyn for *his *past and *his *policies is what you heard - and that is personalisation is it not!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Abacus school of numbers ?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-dawn-butler-gets-homelessness-figures-wrong/

BTW where is Ababcus ? seems to have gone MIA
		
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Got the wrong bus number apparently... has been seen traveling around London but not got home yet.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What vitriol? The guy was blatantly lying on TV...in an election debate - and that is just OK?  The Tories will win the election *because* of Johnson and *because *of Corbyn.  These individuals matter massively - and therefore so does what they say.  What did you hear throughout the debate - Johnson attacking Corbyn for *his *past and *his *policies is what you heard - and that is personalisation is it not!
		
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He's a lying toe rag but so is Swinson, Corbyn and every other current political leader yet you again show no balance in your accusation,  why is that, perhaps hatred or perhaps he's trying to achieve something you dont like. 

Perhaps you need to look at the parties rather than the people.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			All this vitriol and personification ignores the fact that there are 600+mps, a Cabinet and a large number of Goverment departments who actually do most of the work.
		
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It's a fair point but doesn't BJ have form for railroading his way through stuff ... evidence seen in the last few months and as London Mayor.
I don't know about JC or JS ..


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			He's a lying toe rag but so is Swinson, Corbyn and every other current political leader yet you again show no balance in your accusation,  why is that, perhaps hatred or perhaps he's trying to achieve something you dont like.

Perhaps you need to look at the parties rather than the people.
		
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I would also question the level of lying we have seen from JC and JS. Is it on par with BJ ? 
I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest it is. 
Shall we say BJ has lied on more topics than the other 2, if that makes the observation more palatable?  (have i used the correct emoji Hobbit?)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			He's a lying toe rag but so is Swinson, Corbyn and every other current political leader yet you again show no balance in your accusation,  why is that, perhaps hatred or perhaps he's trying to achieve something you dont like.

Perhaps you need to look at the parties rather than the people.
		
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You just can't do that when it is the personalities that matter -  and when the Tories make Corbyn and Swinson the main issues with the Labour and LibDem parties. 

And you can't do it when this is the Brexit Election and Johnson is #1 Leaver.  He is the flag-bearer for Brexit amongst the majority of Leave Voters - so he matters absolutely - and so does what he says - and therefore so do his blatant lies.

Yes the others tell 'em.  But neither Corbyn nor Swinson have been telling them as big or for as long as Johnson.  He has a very long history going back decades.

I don't trust Corbyn 1"


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You just can't do that when it is the personalities that matter -  and when the Tories make Corbyn and Swinson the main issues with the Labour and LibDem parties.

And you can't do it when this is the Brexit Election and Johnson is #1 Leaver.  He is the flag-bearer for Brexit amongst the majority of Leave Voters - so he matters absolutely - and so does what he says - and therefore so do his blatant lies.

Yes the others tell 'em.  But neither Corbyn nor Swinson have been telling them as big or for as long as Johnson.  He has a very long history going back decades.

I don't trust Corbyn 1"
		
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What are these blatant lies?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What are these blatant lies?
		
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Did you want to edit that ?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Did you want to edit that ?
		
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No, its a straight forward question.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You just can't do that when it is the personalities that matter -  and when the Tories make Corbyn and Swinson the main issues with the Labour and LibDem parties.

And you can't do it when this is the Brexit Election and Johnson is #1 Leaver.  He is the flag-bearer for Brexit amongst the majority of Leave Voters - so he matters absolutely - and so does what he says - and therefore so do his blatant lies.

Yes the others tell 'em.  But neither Corbyn nor Swinson have been telling them as big or for as long as Johnson.  He has a very long history going back decades.

I don't trust Corbyn 1"
		
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Interesting, your happy with a little porky when your future might be in their hands. I feel it only fair to remind you that both Swinson and Corbyn have been #1 leavers. Now Corbyn won't tell you what he is and Swinson thinks there might be some votes in being a #1 remainer mind you, I remember when she said there would be no university fees.


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## Dando (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting, your happy with a little porky when your future might be in their hands. I feel it only fair to remind you that both Swinson and Corbyn have been #1 leavers. Now Corbyn won't tell you what he is and Swinson thinks there might be some votes in being a #1 remainer mind you, I remember when she said there would be no university fees.
		
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is that the same Jo Swindle of the Fib Dems whose husbands' firm gets â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬ from the EU


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What are these blatant lies?
		
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Let's start with a nice easy one... The promise he made to his new constituents on the night of his election... That he would lie down in front of those bulldozers to stop the construction of the third runway... No one was truly expecting him to physically carry out his promise... But being present, in the house, on the day of the debate would have been a good start...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Let's start with a nice easy one... The promise he made to his new constituents on the night of his election... That he would lie down in front of those bulldozers to stop the construction of the third runway... No one was truly expecting him to physically carry out his promise... But being present, in the house, on the day of the debate would have been a good start...
		
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I asked SILH to justify his accusation.

Regarding your post.  I agree his comment was an exaggeration, If we judge him a blatant liar based on that then the finger needs pointing at rather a lot of others in parliament.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked SILH to justify his accusation.

Regarding your post.  I agree his comment was an exaggeration, If we judge him a blatant liar based on that then the finger needs pointing at rather a lot of others in parliament.
		
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I rather suspect his constituents consider it as being a blatant lie...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked SILH to justify his accusation.

Regarding your post.  I agree his comment was an exaggeration, If we judge him a blatant liar based on that then the finger needs pointing at rather a lot of others in parliament.
		
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You've got one.

How about we will be leaving on 31st October_ 'I'd be dead in a ditch' - no ifs not buts. _ He knew that he couldn't *guarantee *that - but he still insisted on saying it when Hunt and such as Stewart were saying _to his face_ that he *couldn't *guarantee it, and whenever he was subsequently pressed on it.

Or what about his current _'parliament has blocked me getting a deal done'_.  Not true.  Parliament passed the first reading of his agreed Withdrawal Agreement.  Johnson then decided to pull it and call a General Election.  We know why he did it - but parliament did not block it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50145265

But in case you don't believe that one here's Full Fact on another - the monthly payment to the EU

https://fullfact.org/europe/one-billion-a-month/

And the text from Full Fact on another - the border question

*Does the new withdrawal agreement create a border in the Irish Sea?*
_It has been argued that the new withdrawal agreement will create a â€œborder down the Irish Seaâ€ with checks taking place on goods crossing into Northern Ireland from Great Britain._

_Itâ€™s correct that goods checks will have to take place. This will kick in at the end of the transition period, unless or until the UK and EU sign a trade agreement superseding it. The transition period would last until December 2020 at the earliest, or at the latest December 2022._

And what about the standard line to the UK public - _I will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have two referendum_

To the non-Scottish electorate is this a Lie; a Deceit, or a misinformation? I dunno - you choose.  And in any case I don't actually believe that Labour have committed to a 2020 Scottish independence referendum

But just in case you don't consider any of these as Big Ls - here's the Independent newspaper historical take on Mr Johnson.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...te-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Wasn't BJ sacked from the Times for making up quotes?


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You just can't do that when it is the personalities that matter -  and when the Tories make Corbyn and Swinson the main issues with the Labour and LibDem parties.

And you can't do it when this is the Brexit Election and Johnson is #1 Leaver.  He is the flag-bearer for Brexit amongst the majority of Leave Voters - so he matters absolutely - and so does what he says - and therefore so do his blatant lies.

Yes the others tell 'em.  But neither Corbyn nor Swinson have been telling them as big or for as long as Johnson.  He has a very long history going back decades.

I don't trust Corbyn 1"
		
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"I've never met the IRA."  - photographic evidence.
"I didn't lay a wreath at the grave of 4 terrorists that killed Israeli athletes." Photographic evidence - and some great footage on a piece by the Beeb.
"The Labour Party has investigated every single case of antisemitism." (from last night's debate) - A Labour councillor has today said there are over 100 cases still to be investigated.
"The Tories will sell off the NHS and do deals with big Pharma in the USA." Well, where's the proof of the first bit? But he is right on the second bit. The Tories have very recently signed a deal that sees the cost of cystic fibrosis meds come down massively.

They're both big liars, and arguing the size of the lie is just silly. The idea is to have a PM that you can trust... neither of them pass that benchmark.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 20, 2019)

Explains a lot  

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-11-20...nabis-will-reduce-crime-and-increase-revenue/


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## patricks148 (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Wasn't BJ sacked from the Times for making up quotes?
		
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and lying about one of his affairs


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## robinthehood (Nov 20, 2019)

Dando said:



			is that the same Jo Swindle of the Fib Dems whose husbands' firm gets â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬â‚¬ from the EU
		
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That's more project bs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"I've never met the IRA."  - photographic evidence.
"I didn't lay a wreath at the grave of 4 terrorists that killed Israeli athletes." Photographic evidence - and some great footage on a piece by the Beeb.
"The Labour Party has investigated every single case of antisemitism." (from last night's debate) - A Labour councillor has today said there are over 100 cases still to be investigated.
"The Tories will sell off the NHS and do deals with big Pharma in the USA." Well, where's the proof of the first bit? But he is right on the second bit. The Tories have very recently signed a deal that sees the cost of cystic fibrosis meds come down massively.

They're both big liars, and arguing the size of the lie is just silly. The idea is to have a PM that you can trust... neither of them pass that benchmark.
		
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I don't trust Corbyn.   And in any case he is not going to be our Prime Minister. And neither is Swinson.

And I do not try and defend liars.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			That's more project bs
		
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But true


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## robinthehood (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			But true
		
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Not in the context you want it to be.
Sad.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Explains a lot 

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-11-20...nabis-will-reduce-crime-and-increase-revenue/







Click to expand...

She appears to reject the evidence that playing about with recreational drugs leads in many cases to moving on hard line gear but it will save money - until there off to A&E with an OD


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not in the context you want it to be.
Sad.
		
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Mind reader now then, perhaps the context might be if we are out of the EU the business that pays his wages would be minus the grants that help pay his wages.
But your the mind reader.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			That's more project bs
		
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Not if you unquestionably believe everything you read on Guido Fawkes or Julia Harley Brewer's twitter feed.  The only reputable sources of political information.  Well that and factcheckUK.  Where as this is just liberal lefty fake news perpetrated at your expense...  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-50160148


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"I've never met the IRA."  - photographic evidence.
"I didn't lay a wreath at the grave of 4 terrorists that killed Israeli athletes." Photographic evidence - and some great footage on a piece by the Beeb.
"The Labour Party has investigated every single case of antisemitism." (from last night's debate) - A Labour councillor has today said there are over 100 cases still to be investigated.
"The Tories will sell off the NHS and do deals with big Pharma in the USA." Well, where's the proof of the first bit? But he is right on the second bit. The Tories have very recently signed a deal that sees the cost of cystic fibrosis meds come down massively.

They're both big liars, and arguing the size of the lie is just silly. The idea is to have a PM that you can trust... neither of them pass that benchmark.
		
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I've never met the IRA."  - photographic evidence. 
He met with Sinn Fein, subtle difference.

"I didn't lay a wreath at the grave of 4 terrorists that killed Israeli athletes." Photographic evidence - and some great footage on a piece by the Beeb.

The wreath-laying took place during a commemorative ceremony for victims of the 1985 Israeli air strikes on the PLO headquarters in Tunis, the cemetery were the ceremony took place also contained the graves of the 4 terrorists.

"The Labour Party has investigated every single case of antisemitism." (from last night's debate) - A Labour councillor has today said there are over 100 cases still to be investigated.

Again, the councillor who made has said over 100 cases still need investigating actually said â€œThe party havenâ€™t bothered to investigate the cases properly or make decisions.â€
So again a subtle difference between Corbyn believing they have been and are being dealt with and the councillor who is unhappy with the findings.

Agreed Corbyn is untrustworthy, but Iâ€™m totally unaware of any MP who has ever had so many lies proven and exposed as boris.

Even last night he totally and utterly dodged the question on â€œtelling the truth in politicsâ€

And it was only this summer the court of appeal founds the selling of arms to Saudi Arabia illegal.

Three judges said that a decision made in secret in 2016 had led them to decide that Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox and other key ministers had illegally signed off on arms exports without properly assessing the risk to civilians.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You've got one.

How about we will be leaving on 31st October_ 'I'd be dead in a ditch' - no ifs not buts. _ He knew that he couldn't *guarantee *that - but he still insisted on saying it when Hunt and such as Stewart were saying _to his face_ that he *couldn't *guarantee it, and whenever he was subsequently pressed on it.

Or what about his current _'parliament has blocked me getting a deal done'_.  Not true.  Parliament passed the first reading of his agreed Withdrawal Agreement.  Johnson then decided to pull it and call a General Election.  We know why he did it - but parliament did not block it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50145265

But in case you don't believe that one here's Full Fact on another - the monthly payment to the EU

https://fullfact.org/europe/one-billion-a-month/

And the text from Full Fact on another - the border question

*Does the new withdrawal agreement create a border in the Irish Sea?*
_It has been argued that the new withdrawal agreement will create a â€œborder down the Irish Seaâ€ with checks taking place on goods crossing into Northern Ireland from Great Britain._

_Itâ€™s correct that goods checks will have to take place. This will kick in at the end of the transition period, unless or until the UK and EU sign a trade agreement superseding it. The transition period would last until December 2020 at the earliest, or at the latest December 2022._

And what about the standard line to the UK public - _I will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have two referendum_

To the non-Scottish electorate is this a Lie; a Deceit, or a misinformation? I dunno - you choose.  And in any case I don't actually believe that Labour have committed to a 2020 Scottish independence referendum

But just in case you don't consider any of these as Big Ls - here's the Independent newspaper historical take on Mr Johnson.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...te-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html

Click to expand...

I cant be arsed to go through each and every one of those allegations. I admit some of it smacks of exaggerated comments we hear from many politicians but much of it is also tittle tattle and nit picking. For example, he was prevented from allowing the UK leaving the EU at the end of October by the Benn Bill and the actions of Remainers in parliament, did he actually have to commit suicide in a ditch because of the way he had been manipulated.  His claim that stopping the UK leaving would cost the country 1 billion pounds a month was maybe not exact but the general premise was correct as delaying our final leave date will add extra payments into the EU.

I dislike the casual accusations that call people Liars, its crude and a blunt instrument.  If I had the will to spend time researching claims and statements made by MPs from all parties over the last 20 years that were either exaggerations or, falsehoods or broken promises or even actions that they were prevented from executing and stuck a bit fat LIAR label to them I guess it would be an extensive list indeed.

We seem to get a continual drip feed these days that use terms like 'catestrophic' 'devistated' 'Liar' 'Crash out'  'Cliff edge'  etc, everything is insulting to some faction or the other and in most cases the whole distorted pantomime comes down to people not being able to accept their view lost a vote.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Meanwhile Diane Abbott continues to be insulted on here and the silence to her name calling is deafening.


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## robinthehood (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Mind reader now then, perhaps the context might be if we are out of the EU the business that pays his wages would be minus the grants that help pay his wages.
But your the mind reader.
		
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bs of the highest order and your lapping it up.


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 20, 2019)

That's because someone told her to keep quiet and count to 10.   She keeps getting to six and having to start again.


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Meanwhile Diane Abbott continues to be insulted on here and the silence to her name calling is deafening.

Click to expand...

Seriously Paul, do you think she could hold the position of Home Secretary in Government?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Seriously Paul, do you think she could hold the position of Home Secretary in Government?
		
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Why do you think she canâ€™t? Very bright well educated woman whoâ€™s made a few gaffs over the years.
Going on the rule of thumb on here for boris sheâ€™s more than qualified.


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why do you think she canâ€™t? Very bright well educated woman whoâ€™s made a few gaffs over the years.
Going on the rule of thumb on here for boris sheâ€™s more than qualified.
		
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Seriously ?


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## Dando (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Seriously Paul, do you think she could hold the position of Home Secretary in Government?
		
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Someone will play the race card soon ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Seriously ?
		
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Absolutely, Cambridge educated, MP for over 30 years, increased her majority at last GE.
I fully recognise sheâ€™s made some public gaffes, but I ask again, what it is that makes boris anymore trustworthy as PM.
His background is full of embarrassing lies and gaffes yet we are asked not to be lazy when mentioning him.
Abbott is constantly undermined by the media and the mud thrown at her has stuck.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Dando said:



			Someone will play the race card soon ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Why bring race in to it? Why not simply judge her as a public servant.
Maybe we can bring gender next!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Meanwhile Diane Abbott continues to be insulted on here and the silence to her name calling is deafening.

Click to expand...

Sorry I wanted to highlight being innumerate did not just affect stats but could be an issue in every day life .. like catching a bus. ðŸ˜‰. 
But I am sure she is in a safe place and I am sure her constituency are happy with her efforts and they will show this by giving her a majority. 
In the end that is the yard pole for all of these politicians.


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## chrisd (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely, Cambridge educated, MP for over 30 years, increased her majority at last GE.
I fully recognise sheâ€™s made some public gaffes, but I ask again, what it is that makes boris anymore trustworthy as PM.
His background is full of embarrassing lies and gaffes yet we are asked not to be lazy when mentioning him.
Abbott is constantly undermined by the media and the mud thrown at her has stuck.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly Paul, good luck with that one ðŸ˜£


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Meanwhile Diane Abbott continues to be insulted on here and the silence to her name calling is deafening.

Click to expand...

I don't remember you defending Johnson or Rees Mogg from the name calling on here.

Just for you.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't remember you defending Johnson or Rees Mogg from the name calling on here.

Just for you.....
View attachment 28597

Click to expand...

Nice to see you still maintaining your neutral position.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sorry I wanted to highlight being innumerate did not just affect stats but could be an issue in every day life .. like catching a bus. ðŸ˜‰.
But I am sure she is in a safe place and I am sure her constituency are happy with her efforts and they will show this by giving her a majority.
In the end that is the yard pole for all of these politicians.
		
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In that case, if BJ is re-elected he passes the test.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			bs of the highest order and your lapping it up.
		
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Any chance of something that proves it wrong instead of just giving BS as the sole base of your argument.


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## 2blue (Nov 20, 2019)

Dando said:



			Someone will play the race card soon ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

I guess you must have some condition that prevents you realizing just how pathetic that remark is.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice to see you still maintaining your neutral position.

Click to expand...

Unlike you I don't look at the colour of the rosette someone is wearing before I decide whether or not criticise them. Abbott deserves much of the criticism she gets, as do Johnson, Rees Mogg, Cleverley, Corbyn, McDonnell, Swinson and many others.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 20, 2019)

A.N brutal again tonight, going to watch him take down the leaders next week and that will be enough for me.


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## Dando (Nov 20, 2019)

2blue said:



			I guess you must have some condition that prevents you realizing just how pathetic that remark is. 

Click to expand...

 your guess is wrong so kindly go forth and multiply


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## BrianM (Nov 20, 2019)

Is no one else disillusioned with how inept our politicians seem to be.
I couldnâ€™t care less who they represent, they all seem miles out of touch with modern society.
The Atmosphere in the commons is always like a poisonous office, where no work gets done because of all the bitching and shouting.
We must be a laughing stock to the rest of the world.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Is no one else disillusioned with how inept our politicians seem to be.
I couldnâ€™t care less who they represent, they all seem miles out of touch with modern society.
The Atmosphere in the commons is always like a poisonous office, where no work gets done because of all the bitching and shouting.
We must be a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
		
Click to expand...

Its nothing new, Brexit has just brought it to our attention and exposed what a bunch of self edifying, out of touch people many of them are.


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## Dando (Nov 20, 2019)

2blue said:



			I guess you must have some condition that prevents you realizing just how pathetic that remark is. 

Click to expand...

When abacus was criticised a few weeks ago someone on here pulled the race card quicker than David Lammy


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## 2blue (Nov 20, 2019)

2blue said:



			I guess you must have some condition that prevents you realizing just how pathetic that remark is. 

Click to expand...




Dando said:



			your guess is wrong so kindly go forth and multiply
		
Click to expand...

Haha....  got that one right then....  haha.


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## 2blue (Nov 20, 2019)

Dando said:



			When abacus was criticised a few weeks ago someone on here pulled the race card quicker than David Lammy
		
Click to expand...

Oh no...... getting even better when you attempt to justify things....  get help quick...  haha.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unlike you I don't look at the colour of the rosette someone is wearing before I decide whether or not criticise them. Abbott deserves much of the criticism she gets, as do Johnson, Rees Mogg, Cleverley, Corbyn, McDonnell, Swinson and many others.
		
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But once again you could of asked the question you asked me to numerous posters over the past few days and you havenâ€™t, true to form you played the poster and not the post.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But once again you could of asked the question you asked me to numerous posters over the past few days and you havenâ€™t, true to form you played the poster and not the post.
		
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What question was that then? I didn't ask you a question. You complained about Diane Abbott getting insulted on here and I simply pointed out that you hadn't had the same reaction to insults directed towards others. It's almost as if you're so blinkered that you only object to criticism aimed at Labour politicians. But that can't be right as that would make you a hypocrite.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			What question was that then? I didn't ask you a question. You complained about Diane Abbott getting insulted on here and I simply pointed out that you hadn't had the same reaction to insults directed towards others. It's almost as if you're so blinkered that you only object to criticism aimed at Labour politicians. But that can't be right as that would make you a hypocrite.
		
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Obviously in your opinion Iâ€™m the only hypocrite on here as Iâ€™m the only one you question.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Is no one else disillusioned with how inept our politicians seem to be.
I couldnâ€™t care less who they represent, they all seem miles out of touch with modern society.
The Atmosphere in the commons is always like a poisonous office, where no work gets done because of all the bitching and shouting.
We must be a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed we are. I have a German colleague who tells me we are the butt of most jokes on the satirical news programs over there along with Trump. And as we all know, German comedy is no laughing matter.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Any chance of something that proves it wrong instead of just giving BS as the sole base of your argument.
		
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Sure can. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-50160148

https://www.transparency.org.uk/pre...ional-uk-statement-independence-impartiality/


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously in your opinion Iâ€™m the only hypocrite on here as Iâ€™m the only one you question.

Click to expand...

Once again, I haven't asked you a question or questioned you, I've simply responded to what you have posted. There are plenty of people on here that I would consider to post in a manner that I would consider to be hypocritical. And I'm sure there are some that think the same of some of my posts. You think that Diane Abbott has been receiving unfair criticism on here. I just pointed out that several others (Tories) have received similar or more criticism but you chose not to complain about those posts.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I've never met the IRA."  - photographic evidence.
He met with Sinn Fein, subtle difference.

"I didn't lay a wreath at the grave of 4 terrorists that killed Israeli athletes." Photographic evidence - and some great footage on a piece by the Beeb.

The wreath-laying took place during a commemorative ceremony for victims of the 1985 Israeli air strikes on the PLO headquarters in Tunis, the cemetery were the ceremony took place also contained the graves of the 4 terrorists.

"The Labour Party has investigated every single case of antisemitism." (from last night's debate) - A Labour councillor has today said there are over 100 cases still to be investigated.

Again, the councillor who made has said over 100 cases still need investigating actually said â€œThe party havenâ€™t bothered to investigate the cases properly or make decisions.â€
So again a subtle difference between Corbyn believing they have been and are being dealt with and the councillor who is unhappy with the findings.

Agreed Corbyn is untrustworthy, but Iâ€™m totally unaware of any MP who has ever had so many lies proven and exposed as boris.

Even last night he totally and utterly dodged the question on â€œtelling the truth in politicsâ€

And it was only this summer the court of appeal founds the selling of arms to Saudi Arabia illegal.

Three judges said that a decision made in secret in 2016 had led them to decide that Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox and other key ministers had illegally signed off on arms exports without properly assessing the risk to civilians.
		
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Gerry Adams was Sinn Fein, Martin McGuinness was IRA - FACT.
Tunisia wreath laying. There's a great piece done by the Beeb, in which Chris Williamson is questioned about it, which also has the photographic evidence. There's also a piece showing Corbyn being questioned on it. He sweats up and get flustered like you wouldn't believe. He even says that he didn't know all the graves that were part of the ceremony.
Antisemitic investigations; have a look at the levels of interference by the leader's office in the investigations, inc by Seamus Milne and argghh - female senior manager whose name escapes me - all the info is out there. You're playing with words, making excuses about not investigated properly or make decisions. He will have known something so controversial would have come up in the debate, and would have been fully briefed. Corbyn lied last night.

I'm not defending Johnson - hell, I even struggle to say Boris. He's a disgrace of a PM, nor do I doubt the validity of your claims about him. But why do you continually defend Corbyn, then say "Corbyn is untrustworthy." He's either believable or he isn't. And "untrustworthy - not able to be relied on as honest or truthful."

BTW, I'm with you on Diane Abbot. She's got a first class record as a constituency MP, and the work she's done on various Select Committees, especially in the area of mental health, is fantastic. Has she been promoted to her level of incompetency? I don't know. But it is worth looking at some of the stuff she's done on the Beeb with Michael Portillo... she comes across as a racist. For me, that's her failing. Great Constituency MP but flawed in other areas.


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## robinthehood (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Any chance of something that proves it wrong instead of just giving BS as the sole base of your argument.
		
Click to expand...

Google it and stop asking to be spoon fed info, it's just looks childish.
There is nothing to prove wrong , its just a total non story seized upon and fed to gullible types who lap it up  and share  it with out second thought to it's actual authenticity.
How about you prove you're right....ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Once again, I haven't asked you a question or questioned you, I've simply responded to what you have posted. There are plenty of people on here that I would consider to post in a manner that I would consider to be hypocritical. And I'm sure there are some that think the same of some of my posts. You think that Diane Abbott has been receiving unfair criticism on here. I just pointed out that several others (Tories) have received similar or more criticism but you chose not to complain about those posts.
		
Click to expand...

Do I really think Diane Abbott has been receiving unfair criticism? Or is it more the fact when people mention borisâ€™s lies we get all sorts of responses deflecting that all politicians  lie and boris hasnâ€™t lied, itâ€™s lazy posting etc etc.
Iâ€™m simply questioning why some posters donâ€™t apply the same standard to other politicians.
ChrisD came on and discussed my post, didnâ€™t try to be clever or question me, simple discussion, quite a few on here could learn from him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Gerry Adams was Sinn Fein, Martin McGuinness was IRA - FACT.
Tunisia wreath laying. There's a great piece done by the Beeb, in which Chris Williamson is questioned about it, which also has the photographic evidence. There's also a piece showing Corbyn being questioned on it. He sweats up and get flustered like you wouldn't believe. He even says that he didn't know all the graves that were part of the ceremony.
Antisemitic investigations; have a look at the levels of interference by the leader's office in the investigations, inc by Seamus Milne and argghh - female senior manager whose name escapes me - all the info is out there. You're playing with words, making excuses about not investigated properly or make decisions. He will have known something so controversial would have come up in the debate, and would have been fully briefed. Corbyn lied last night.

I'm not defending Johnson - hell, I even struggle to say Boris. He's a disgrace of a PM, nor do I doubt the validity of your claims about him. But why do you continually defend Corbyn, then say "Corbyn is untrustworthy." He's either believable or he isn't. And "untrustworthy - not able to be relied on as honest or truthful."

BTW, I'm with you on Diane Abbot. She's got a first class record as a constituency MP, and the work she's done on various Select Committees, especially in the area of mental health, is fantastic. Has she been promoted to her level of incompetency? I don't know. But it is worth looking at some of the stuff she's done on the Beeb with Michael Portillo... she comes across as a racist. For me, that's her failing. Great Constituency MP but flawed in other areas.
		
Click to expand...

You know my feelings on Corbyn, Iâ€™m just putting another side to it, not everything we read in the media is fact.
The meetings with Adams and McGuinness were nearly 30-40 years ago when we didnâ€™t know as much as we do now, I struggle to get past how he behaved in the past, just as much as I struggle with some of the things Abbott has said over the past.
I just believe itâ€™s time to move on and judge people on recent and current events.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Google it and stop asking to be spoon fed info, it's just looks childish.
There is nothing to prove wrong , its just a total non story seized upon and fed to gullible types who lap it up  and share  it with out second thought to it's actual authenticity.
		
Click to expand...

I did, are you suggesting the BBC is spreading false news. Feel free to throw petty insults but I suggest you get your facts right or prove the BBC wrong.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Do I really think Diane Abbott has been receiving unfair criticism?* Or is it more the fact when people mention borisâ€™s lies we get all sorts of responses deflecting that all politicians  lie and boris hasnâ€™t lied, itâ€™s lazy posting etc etc.
Iâ€™m simply questioning why some posters donâ€™t apply the same standard to other politicians.
ChrisD came on and discussed my post, didnâ€™t try to be clever or question me, simple discussion, quite a few on here could learn from him.
		
Click to expand...

You were the one that suggested that "the silence was deafening" over criticism of Abbott. I was pulled up earlier today by SR for calling Boris a liar so I don't know why you are directing that at me. By many accounts Diane Abbott is a very good constituency MP who has done a lot of good work locally. Equally she has made some high profile gaffes that are amusing and deserve a bit of piss taking.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You know my feelings on Corbyn, Iâ€™m just putting another side to it, not everything we read in the media is fact.
The meetings with Adams and McGuinness were nearly 30-40 years ago when we didnâ€™t know as much as we do now, I struggle to get past how he behaved in the past, just as much as I struggle with some of the things Abbott has said over the past.
I just believe itâ€™s time to move on and judge people on recent and current events.
		
Click to expand...

I think Corbyn social conscience is up there with the best. And I believe he wants to make those improvements in social care. Hell, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he didn't have such a long and checkered history. Misguided in his meetings with terror groups? Maybe he was/is but its someone's CV that gets them the job, and his CV stinks.

"Recent and current events;" Do you believe Corbyn doesn't receive regular briefings on the ongoing antisemitic investigations and claims? Do you believe he isn't armed with answers to those questions? He lied last night. Is that recent enough?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You were the one that suggested that "the silence was deafening" over criticism of Abbott. I was pulled up earlier today by SR for calling Boris a liar so I don't know why you are directing that at me. By many accounts Diane Abbott is a very good constituency MP who has done a lot of good work locally. Equally she has made some high profile gaffes that are amusing and deserve a bit of piss taking.
		
Click to expand...

I suggested the holier than thou boris defenders are quiet when it comes to Abbott, theyâ€™re happy to ask for proof, make excuses, but only for boris.
If sheâ€™s fair game then so is he.
My posts were not aimed at you until you questioned me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think Corbyn social conscience is up there with the best. And I believe he wants to make those improvements in social care. Hell, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he didn't have such a long and checkered history. Misguided in his meetings with terror groups? Maybe he was/is but its someone's CV that gets them the job, and his CV stinks.

"Recent and current events;" Do you believe Corbyn doesn't receive regular briefings on the ongoing antisemitic investigations and claims? Do you believe he isn't armed with answers to those questions? He lied last night. Is that recent enough?
		
Click to expand...

This will come across in the wrong way as Iâ€™m crap with words:
I watched the debate last night and took a lot of things both said with a pinch of salt.
Iâ€™ve read the counter claim by the Labour councillor and thatâ€™s it, one counter claim by a Labour councillor that has history of being a Corbyn critic.
Did Corbyn lie? Based on what Iâ€™ve read today, I genuinely donâ€™t know, there seems to be more counter claims against the councillor.
If in coming days itâ€™s proved Corbyn lied then I fully agree he should be nailed to the fence to explain.
I donâ€™t know if youâ€™ve seen anything different as youâ€™ve decided he lied, I havenâ€™t, Iâ€™m comfortable on the fence.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I suggested the holier than thou boris defenders are quiet when it comes to Abbott, theyâ€™re happy to ask for proof, make excuses, but only for boris.
If sheâ€™s fair game then so is he.
My posts were not aimed at you until you questioned me.
		
Click to expand...

I think the majority of us have agreed that BJ tells porkies but it is strange that some seem to think that it's ok for the other leaders to tell porkies and their porkies aren't as big as BJs. These are people that want to hold senior positions in the country, it should be unacceptable for any politician to lie.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I suggested the holier than thou boris defenders are quiet when it comes to Abbott, theyâ€™re happy to ask for proof, make excuses, but only for boris.
If sheâ€™s fair game then so is he.
My posts were not aimed at you until you questioned me.
		
Click to expand...

I'm certainly not one of the "holier than thou boris defenders". I think he's a liar, a clown and a buffoon and I've never pulled up anyone for their criticism of him. And the only reason that I would consider voting for him/the Tories is because in my opinion the alternatives are worse. If only the Lib Dems had stood on a manifesto of opposing Brexit and offering a 2nd referendum rather than revoking Article 50 then I could have voted for them. Or if Labour were closer to the centre-left than they are rather than far left/momentum-left and had a decent leader then I could have considered voting for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think the majority of us have agreed that BJ tells porkies but it is strange that some seem to think that it's ok for the other leaders to tell porkies and their porkies aren't as big as BJs. These are people that want to hold senior positions in the country, it should be unacceptable for any politician to lie.
		
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Totally agree, but boris is beyond porkies mate, heâ€™s been sacked twice and continues to be hounded by scandal.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/37-lies-gaffes-scandals-make-18558695.amp


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

More lies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...polls-lead-general-election-a9210261.html?amp


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, but boris is beyond porkies mate, heâ€™s been sacked twice and continues to be hounded by scandal.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/37-lies-gaffes-scandals-make-18558695.amp

Click to expand...

And he also doesn't have the ability to listen and think before he opens his mouth which is why he says what he does. Always been the same and you have to wonder why he is where he is. Tory own goal which now makes it 1-1 with Labour.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And he also doesn't have the ability to listen and think before he opens his mouth which is why he says what he does. Always been the same and you have to wonder why he is where he is. Tory own goal which now makes it 1-1 with Labour.
		
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Do you remember when Corbyn was elected how funny the tories found it?
Joined the Labour Party for a tenner so they could vote for him.
Hopefully those who did still find it as funny.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You've got one.

How about we will be leaving on 31st October_ 'I'd be dead in a ditch' - no ifs not buts. _ He knew that he couldn't *guarantee *that - but he still insisted on saying it when Hunt and such as Stewart were saying _to his face_ that he *couldn't *guarantee it, and whenever he was subsequently pressed on it.
		
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It has rightly been pointed out to you a number of times that the reason he couldn't leave on 31 October was the Benn Bill. If that had not been passed he would have either 
1. got a deal and left, or
2 Not got a deal and left.

The Benn bill ,instigated by the remainders and labour together ,ensured that if he had done #2 it would have made him a criminal. So he was not able to pursue that objective of leaving. 
You keep on having the cheek to call him out a liar on that situation and wonder why people call you a hypocrite for doing so, a man who pleads allegiance to Christian religion. 
You know, we all know, that he was indulging in hyperbole, as all politicians do when saying what they want to achieve- how would "dying in a ditch" be otherwise described by any fair minded person?
You claim to know someone who has long since been dead who also used hyperbole, IIRC, when he said that faith could move mountains. No one took that literally, but they did realise the emphasis he was making.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, but boris is beyond porkies mate, heâ€™s been sacked twice and continues to be hounded by scandal.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/37-lies-gaffes-scandals-make-18558695.amp

Click to expand...

So you want to forget Corbyn's past but bring up Johnson's past? Mmm, does that sound fair and equitable?



pauldj42 said:



			This will come across in the wrong way as Iâ€™m crap with words:
I watched the debate last night and took a lot of things both said with a pinch of salt.
Iâ€™ve read the counter claim by the Labour councillor and thatâ€™s it, one counter claim by a Labour councillor that has history of being a Corbyn critic.
Did Corbyn lie? Based on what Iâ€™ve read today, I genuinely donâ€™t know, there seems to be more counter claims against the councillor.
If in coming days itâ€™s proved Corbyn lied then I fully agree he should be nailed to the fence to explain.
I donâ€™t know if youâ€™ve seen anything different as youâ€™ve decided he lied, I havenâ€™t, Iâ€™m comfortable on the fence.
		
Click to expand...

Jennie Formby, the name I couldn't remember, Labour General Secretary briefed Corbyn that all the antisemite cases had been resolved. Google her and look at her involvement.

Last Tuesday the Jewish Labour Movement submitted hundreds of unresolved cases to the Equalities Commission who, along with the Met Police, are currently investigating Labour. Do you think the JLM would risk submitting hundreds of false claims to the Equalities Commission? Would anyone be that stupid?

BTW, being a critic of Corbyn doesn't make the councillor wrong. He may be but maybe he isn't. And I'd expect Labour to dig the dirt on him, just as I'd expect any party to do so. Just hope he hasn't got the Brown Shirts (Momentum) banging on his door.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Changing the subject altogether, I thought the Lib Dem manifesto wasnâ€™t a bad effort. Some quite enticing proposals. 
Although their leader doesnâ€™t have such a diverse portfolio with respect to lying ðŸ¤¥.. I am sure more time in office will give her the opportunity.
I was still confused though what I was going to spend my extra Â£2/ week on or the Â£500 /year was going to exist. 
Ah I suppose itâ€™s like the bus, so I wonâ€™t hold my breath ðŸ˜


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2019)

Oh and I wonâ€™t watch Peston his delivery is dreadfully annoying.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you remember when Corbyn was elected how funny the tories found it?
Joined the Labour Party for a tenner so they could vote for him.
Hopefully those who did still find it as funny.
		
Click to expand...

If that is true then itâ€™s worked beyond their wildest dreams! Do you not think if Labour had a different leader they would already be in government by now? I certainly do. 
Boris is very similar to Trump but not in the ways some on here think, you look at him and think â€œthere is no way Iâ€™m voting for that twatâ€... then you look at the opposition and think â€œoh christ!â€ And put your cross next to his name. Thatâ€™s how Trump got in, fear of Hilary.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do I really think Diane Abbott has been receiving unfair criticism? *Or is it more the fact when people mention borisâ€™s lies we get all sorts of responses deflecting that all politicians  lie and boris hasnâ€™t lied,* itâ€™s lazy posting etc etc.
Iâ€™m simply questioning why some posters donâ€™t apply the same standard to other politicians.
ChrisD came on and discussed my post, didnâ€™t try to be clever or question me, simple discussion, quite a few on here could learn from him.
		
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Re: the bold bit.   My point is that to label anyone a Liar is a very powerful accusation and one used too often without full consideration of the facts.  I dont label people Liars as it is Lazy and used in many cases to support a persons personal agenda.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			More lies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...polls-lead-general-election-a9210261.html?amp

Click to expand...

That article is stupidly biased and once more calling the Liar card incorrectly.  You complain that people post what you think are unfair and unfounded accusations about Abbott, you even complain if we don't post about her but you don't mind posting the attached one with a 'Liar' label to it.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If that is true then itâ€™s worked beyond their wildest dreams! Do you not think if Labour had a different leader they would already be in government by now? I certainly do.
Boris is very similar to Trump but not in the ways some on here think, you look at him and think â€œthere is no way Iâ€™m voting for that twatâ€... then you look at the opposition and think â€œoh christ!â€ And put your cross next to his name. Thatâ€™s how Trump got in, fear of Hilary.
		
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There's the thing... Only a small number of the electorate get to pick the occupant of No 10... The rest of us only get the chance to indicate who we feel best to represent our constituency...


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That article is stupidly biased and once more calling the Liar card incorrectly.  You complain that people post what you think are unfair and unfounded accusations about Abbott, you even complain if we don't post about her but you don't mind posting the attached one with a 'Liar' label to it.
		
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i'm sure Boris's ex wives would disagree about him not being a liar


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If that is true then itâ€™s worked beyond their wildest dreams! Do you not think if Labour had a different leader they would already be in government by now? I certainly do.
Boris is very similar to Trump but not in the ways some on here think, you look at him and think â€œthere is no way Iâ€™m voting for that twatâ€... then you look at the opposition and think â€œoh christ!â€ And put your cross next to his name. Thatâ€™s how Trump got in, fear of Hilary.
		
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If you are unsure on how to vote I would discard the individuals and look at which party has the best policies for the country.
I am sure that is how most folk vote.

I also believe most folk think that both the Labour and Tory party leaders are outstandingly inept.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'm sure Boris's ex wives would disagree about him not being a liar

Click to expand...

And Im sure Jezza the reds ex wifes will testify to what a fine chap he is.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Re: the bold bit.   My point is that to label anyone a Liar is a very powerful accusation and one used too often without full consideration of the facts.  I dont label people Liars as it is Lazy and used in many cased to support a persons personal agenda.
		
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Itâ€™s a FACT heâ€™s lied, itâ€™s not an accusation itâ€™s a matter of record.

Itâ€™s no different to you making an excuse over the Benn act, he was making the promises about 31st Oct without having control of either the HoCâ€™s or even his Party, surely the sensible way forward was to see how he got on before he spoke.

Even his deal lost the DUP support with them claiming he was going back on his words.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So you want to forget Corbyn's past but bring up Johnson's past? Mmm, does that sound fair and equitable?



Jennie Formby, the name I couldn't remember, Labour General Secretary briefed Corbyn that all the antisemite cases had been resolved. Google her and look at her involvement.

Last Tuesday the Jewish Labour Movement submitted hundreds of unresolved cases to the Equalities Commission who, along with the Met Police, are currently investigating Labour. Do you think the JLM would risk submitting hundreds of false claims to the Equalities Commission? Would anyone be that stupid?

BTW, being a critic of Corbyn doesn't make the councillor wrong. He may be but maybe he isn't. And I'd expect Labour to dig the dirt on him, just as I'd expect any party to do so. Just hope he hasn't got the Brown Shirts (Momentum) banging on his door.
		
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I dislike Corbyn, I dislike Johnson, for different reasons though.

I take your point over the past, the difference (in my head) is with Johnson is they are still continuing to this day.

Part of the reports yesterday is those hundreds of cases sent to the EHCR was stating those cases are not new, but the cases that either the JLM didnâ€™t agree with the outcome or the claimant refused the decision, so in effect not actually new.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			And Im sure Jezza the reds ex wifes will testify to what a fine chap he is.
		
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i'm not defending Jezza, though, some else is stating boris isn't a liar..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are unsure on how to vote I would discard the individuals and look at which party has the best policies for the country.
I am sure that is how most folk vote.

I also believe most folk think that both the Labour and Tory party leaders are outstandingly inept.
		
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Obviously not most folk as they still get the most votes, probably find most folk outside the SNP find NS inept.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'm not defending Jezza, though, some else is stating boris isn't a liar..

Click to expand...

Easier to deflect.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

In my new role as independent fact checker I can confirm that Boris is not a liar. His farts also smell of roses. #factcheck


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## MegaSteve (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Re: the bold bit.   My point is that to label anyone a Liar is a very powerful accusation and one used too often without full consideration of the facts.  I dont label people Liars as it is Lazy and used in many cased to support a persons personal agenda.
		
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Can it be assumed then that you wouldn't be at all bothered if your MP lied to his constituents in the manner Boris lied to his...


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

https://evolvepolitics.com/watch-li...H4rdPJ0YBbuo-9XqbqKgBK8B6HncQxeOunHhOMg-ZEd5k 

libs are thinking of another sleep over with the tory's and boris is going to give then a 2nd ref...Lol


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Boris is not disclosing exactly how many children he has on purpose. It's just that he is a very busy man with lots of important stuff to remember to do like 'Getting Brexit Done', and is famously not at his best when it comes to exact details. #factcheck


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## Grant85 (Nov 21, 2019)

Well 3 weeks out and it's not looking good for those of us who want to remain... or at least want to have a final say (which I accept is almost wholly Remainers). 

Tories leading by double figures in many polls with Labour and the Lib Dems not having any game changing moments thus far. 

Reasons for optimism... 
* Tory manifesto still not launched. My guess is that that will be lacking in detail and could be potential for another Theresa May 'dementia tax' moment when Boris and others are questioned on some of the details and are basically on the back foot for a week or more. 
* Tactical voting. There are still a LOT of people who want to remain and perhaps there is enough potential for people to take a closer look at their own constituency and ultimately vote for the party best placed to beat the Tories in that seat. I'd imagine a lot of this tactical element will not be picked up in opinion polls and many people may not make this decision until quite late. 
* Polling wrong? I've seen some posts suggesting the reason the polls didn't pick up that Labour was so close in 2017 is that they under-estimated turnout among younger age groups. Even if this is the case - likely the Tories still have enough votes to play with at the moment.
* The Tories need a majority, all the remain side have to do is stop them getting that. i.e. they don't need Labour to win, or even get more seats than the Tories... they just need Lab + SNP + LD + PC + Green + Inds to get to around 320 combined. Wishful thinking, but if Lab can hold anything like 250 seats, then we could be in business.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Priti Patel is right when she says you can't blame the government who has been in power for nearly 10 years for poverty. Or indeed anything, Brexit not getting done, shortage of police, schools being underfunded, increased use of food banks etc etc.

It is a fact that Labour caused the global economic crash ages ago and this was compounded by Gordon Brown selling off the gold cheaply. And this has directly led to the current state of society. #factcheck 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197196302024617985


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Easier to deflect.

Click to expand...

Equally couldn't that point be directed back at you as each time someone mentions Corbyn misdemeanours you deflect back to Boris..

Boris has told lies, Corbyn has told lies, Swinson has told lies.. None of the leading parties "Leaders" and their cabinets can ever be accused of being truthful and worthy of being trusted. Sadly this election is not a case of who we think is the best person to lead the country based on their upstanding morals but one based on who do we mistrust the least. It's a sad state of affairs to be in.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

Jess Phillips had a moment of honesty on national TV openly stating that she doubts Labour will meet all its manifesto commitments. As I've posted before, this is the person Labour need as their leader, they'd walk into No 10.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Fact, Jo Swinson is married to Donald Tusk. #factcheck


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Equally couldn't that point be directed back at you as each time someone mentions Corbyn misdemeanours you deflect back to Boris..

Boris has told lies, Corbyn has told lies, Swinson has told lies.. None of the leading parties "Leaders" and their cabinets can ever be accused of being truthful and worthy of being trusted. Sadly this election is not a case of who we think is the best person to lead the country based on their upstanding morals but one based on who do we mistrust the least. It's a sad state of affairs to be in.
		
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Show me Corbyns and Swinsons lies, show me were they have been sacked for lying.
As SR keeps saying Liar is a harsh word.

Totally agree all Politicians are untrustworthy, but thatâ€™s a big difference to actual being a proven liar


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Well 3 weeks out and it's not looking good for those of us who want to remain... or at least want to have a final say (which I accept is almost wholly Remainers).

Tories leading by double figures in many polls with Labour and the Lib Dems not having any game changing moments thus far.

Reasons for optimism...
* Tory manifesto still not launched. My guess is that that will be lacking in detail and could be potential for another Theresa May 'dementia tax' moment when Boris and others are questioned on some of the details and are basically on the back foot for a week or more.
* Tactical voting. There are still a LOT of people who want to remain and perhaps there is enough potential for people to take a closer look at their own constituency and ultimately vote for the party best placed to beat the Tories in that seat. I'd imagine a lot of this tactical element will not be picked up in opinion polls and many people may not make this decision until quite late.
* Polling wrong? I've seen some posts suggesting the reason the polls didn't pick up that Labour was so close in 2017 is that they under-estimated turnout among younger age groups. Even if this is the case - likely the Tories still have enough votes to play with at the moment.
* The Tories need a majority, all the remain side have to do is stop them getting that. i.e. they don't need Labour to win, or even get more seats than the Tories... they just need Lab + SNP + LD + PC + Green + Inds to get to around 320 combined. Wishful thinking, but if Lab can hold anything like 250 seats, then we could be in business.
		
Click to expand...

Tongue in cheek..
Boris is making the manifesto up as he goes along .. a couple of promises here and there.

But seriously
Watching him on the news last night and the response was interesting, he is definitely preying on the optimistic with goldfish memories. He makes very bold statements and fails to carry them through and blames others for their failures .. are they lies, well that can be debated, but the issue is he doesn't think things through and that is a car crash waiting to happen.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Jess Phillips had a moment of honesty on national TV openly stating that she doubts Labour will meet all its manifesto commitments. As I've posted before, this is the person Labour need as their leader, they'd walk into No 10.
		
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but to be fair the Tory's havn't met many of there election manifesto's promises from the last two parliments


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but to be fair the Tory's havn't met many of there election manifesto's promises from the last two parliments
		
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My post had nothing to do with any party other than to point out a politician publicly stating something that many of us know no matter what party you suppor that manifesto's in general are a crock of fantasy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It has rightly been pointed out to you a number of times that the reason he couldn't leave on 31 October was the Benn Bill. If that had not been passed he would have either
1. got a deal and left, or
2 Not got a deal and left.

The Benn bill ,instigated by the remainders and labour together ,ensured that if he had done #2 it would have made him a criminal. So he was not able to pursue that objective of leaving.
*You keep on having the cheek to call him out a liar on that situation and wonder why people call you a hypocrite for doing so, a man who pleads allegiance to Christian religion.*

Click to expand...

You really think that being a Christian precludes me for calling out where I see someone lying or deceiving?  See Matthew 23 for example.  I particularly like verses 27 and 28 as apt.

_27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! Youâ€™re nothing but show-offs. Youâ€™re like tombs that have been whitewashed. On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 Thatâ€™s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good. _


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			My post had nothing to do with any party other than to point out a politician publicly stating something that many of us know no matter what party you suppor that manifesto's in general are a crock of fantasy.
		
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but at the same time highlighting that labour wouldn't meet all its manifesto claims


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Show me Corbyns and Swinsons lies, show me were they have been sacked for lying.
As SR keeps saying Liar is a harsh word.

Totally agree all Politicians are untrustworthy, but thatâ€™s a big difference to actual being a proven liar
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit pointed out the most recent Corbyn lies in the debate just this week, though you chose to see the spin on them, Swinson only just last week was called out in a live interview for deceiving the voting populous with their voting literature and graphs, Swinson replied there live on air they're not deceiving anyone, but when the interviewer pointed out the actual numbers and the fine print in the Lib Dems own statistics  Swinson still said they werent deceiving, it was all there for all to see. 

My initial point was you keep moaning that Boris is a liar, but even when shown the facts of where the other MPs are economic with the truth you choose to see that as Obi Wan Kenobi would put it the "truth from a certain point of view" 

We all know Boris has lied and we all know the other leaders have been economical with the truth or just plain twisted it but somehow it's OK for them to do it because they haven't been proven in court or have merely adapted it to suit their needs


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Hobbit pointed out the most recent Corbyn lies in the debate just this week, though you chose to see the spin on them, Swinson only just last week was called out in a live interview for deceiving the voting populous with their voting literature and graphs, Swinson replied there live on air they're not deceiving anyone, but when the interviewer pointed out the actual numbers and the fine print in the Lib Dems own statistics  Swinson still said they werent deceiving, it was all there for all to see.

My initial point was you keep moaning that Boris is a liar, but even when shown the facts of where the other MPs are economic with the truth you choose to see that as Obi Wan Kenobi would put it the "truth from a certain point of view"

We all know Boris has lied and we all know the other leaders have been economical with the truth or just plain twisted it but somehow it's OK for them to do it because they haven't been proven in court or have merely adapted it to suit their needs
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit has an opinion, as do I, why do you take his point of view as gospel.

Iâ€™m not moaning boris is a liar, Iâ€™m stating a fact. Itâ€™s others who constantly try and defend his behaviour whilst ignoring the fact heâ€™s a liar.

Iâ€™ll stop picking them up on it and spinning the other side when others do the same.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Boris is not disclosing exactly how many children he has on purpose. It's just that he is a very busy man with lots of important stuff to remember to do like 'Getting Brexit Done', and is famously not at his best when it comes to exact details. #factcheck
		
Click to expand...

You mean like his take on Gatt Article 24 Paragraph 5(c)

*Neil:* "So how would you handle article 5(b) in GATT 24?"
*Johnson:* "Paragraph 5(b), article 24 - get the detail right. Get the detail right, Andrew. It's article 24, paragraph 5(b)."
*Neil:* "And how would you handle paragraph 5(c)?"
*Johnson:* "I would confide entirely in paragraph 5(b).
*Neil:* "And how would you get round what is in 5(c)?"
*Johnson: *"I would confide entirely in paragraph 5(b), which is enough for our purposes."
*Neil:* "Do you know what is in 5(c)?"
*Johnson: *"No."

In fact every schoolboy knows that 5(c) is absolutely critical to how UK will trade if the UK leaves without a deal and has to trade under WTO GATT rules


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## Grant85 (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Tongue in cheek..
Boris is making the manifesto up as he goes along .. a couple of promises here and there.

But seriously
Watching him on the news last night and the response was interesting, he is definitely preying on the optimistic with goldfish memories. He makes very bold statements and fails to carry them through and blames others for their failures .. are they lies, well that can be debated, but the issue is he doesn't think things through and that is a car crash waiting to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - I'd tend to agree, but problem is he might well get away with it. 

Corbyn missed a big opportunity during the debate not to call him out as a liar and list several of his more recent episodes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Gordon Brown selling off the gold cheaply
		
Click to expand...

I'm wondering what would have happened if he had not sold off the gold when he did,  I can't remember his rationale for doing it, or the state of the economy at the time  - but I'm guessing that the economy wasn't in tip-top condition.  

Feels a bit like me having to sell my house when I lose my job and can't afford the mortgage payment - and I have to sell at a point when house prices are depressed.  But I don't have any choice.  I have to sell.  No point in me looking back now knowing I could have got Â£50,000 more for it if I'd waited a year.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Tongue in cheek..
Boris is making the manifesto up as he goes along .. a couple of promises here and there.

But seriously
Watching him on the news last night and the response was interesting, he is definitely preying on the optimistic with goldfish memories. He makes very bold statements and fails to carry them through and blames others for their failures .. are they lies, well that can be debated, but the issue is he doesn't think things through and that is a car crash waiting to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Is he making it up or do you think he's making it up?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Just loved Ch4 Gove's interview yesterday #factcheckuk






Aside - sample of 1. I asked my wife this morning if she knew what CCHQ is.  She had no idea - and she is following the politics closely at the moment.

What the heck is a 'polemical case' - must go investigate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm wondering what would have happened if he had not sold off the gold when he did,  I can't remember his rationale for doing it, or the state of the economy at the time  - but I'm guessing that the economy wasn't in tip-top condition.

Feels a bit like me having to sell my house when I lose my job and can't afford the mortgage payment - and I have to sell at a point when house prices are depressed.  But I don't have any choice.  I have to sell.  No point in me looking back now knowing I could have got Â£50,000 more for it if I'd waited a year.
		
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You need to read what and why, at the time the gold was sitting there doing nothing, he sold it at market value and turned it in to bonds that we are still receiving interest off.
With hindsight it was sold off at a cheap price, but thatâ€™s a poor argument as none of us have a crystal ball and a lot of economic experts now believe he did the right thing at the time.

2 points of view in 1 article.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/bus...d-reserves-20-years-ago/ar-AAB4sVG?li=BBQfQii


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fact, Jo Swinson is married to Donald Tusk. #factcheck
		
Click to expand...

And we pay her now ex husband Â£350 million a week.


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hobbit has an opinion, as do I, *why do you take his point of view as gospel.*

Iâ€™m not moaning boris is a liar, Iâ€™m stating a fact. Itâ€™s others who constantly try and defend his behaviour whilst ignoring the fact heâ€™s a liar.

Iâ€™ll stop picking them up on it and spinning the other side when others do the same.
		
Click to expand...

Who said I'm taking his opinion as fact, you do like to twist others words are you sure your not a politician ðŸ¤”

My actual words were Hobbit pointed out his most recent lies, which is true he did that's not opinion at all that's fact of what was pointed out in what Corbyn said as was debunked by his own Party both prior and post debate.

You chose to ignore this preferring the the slight twist on truth option you'd read elsewhere. That is of course your choice and you're entirely entitled to believe what you choose on that. I agree you are stating a fact Boris is a liar nobody  nobody is defending him for that or said he isn't. But they're also pointing out other leaders flaws which you choose to overlook despite saying you don't like them.. 

If anything most have pointed out as I have myself in my previous post none of the current incumbent leaders are fully telling the truth nor are they the best people within their own parties to lead the nation.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is he making it up or do you think he's making it up?
		
Click to expand...

I think he is getting it a bit jumbled up but the crux of it is a manifesto ...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Jacob Rees Mogg, a senior member of the Tory party, is very popular with voters, relates well to the daily struggles of a lot of the general population and has lots of insight into what to do in a fire.  His absence from the campaign is nothing sinister. The fact is his children's nanny has a bout of leprosy but is expected to make a full recovery around the 13th December, so Jacob will be back on that day after filling in for her at home. #factcheck


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2019)

Is there any chance we could agree that, at some stage, pretty much all MP's lie. We can dance on this particular pinhead and argue who has,, or hasn't told the biggest whopper but it will amount of the sum total of beggar all. I can't believe anyone on here is so trusting of MP's that they feel duped.

Perhaps we, instead of pointlessly trying to tear strips of each other, could even consider the various promises being made and which 'lies/promises' are likely to be realised?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Yes - I'd tend to agree, but problem is he might well get away with it.

Corbyn missed a big opportunity during the debate not to call him out as a liar and list several of his more recent episodes.
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think JC is that type of politician and I kind of respect that, as it should be us the electorate to make that decision. 
I am not saying I agree with his politics but I do think he is more self control.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Who said I'm taking his opinion as fact, you do like to twist others words are you sure your not a politician ðŸ¤”

My actual words were *Hobbit pointed out his most recent lies*, which is true he did that's not opinion at all that's fact of what was pointed out in what Corbyn said as was debunked by his own Party both prior and post debate.

You chose to ignore this preferring the the slight twist on truth option you'd read elsewhere. That is of course your choice and you're entirely entitled to believe what you choose on that. I agree you are stating a fact Boris is a liar nobody  nobody is defending him for that or said he isn't. But they're also pointing out other leaders flaws which you choose to overlook despite saying you don't like them..

If anything most have pointed out as I have myself in my previous post none of the current incumbent leaders are fully telling the truth nor are they the best people within their own parties to lead the nation.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not fact Corbyn lied, have a look back and youâ€™ll see me and Hobbit discussed this last night, itâ€™s one guy, one man saying it.
And like I said last night, if itâ€™s proven  in the next few days that Corbyn lied then he should nailed to a fence and have the facts put to him.
Iâ€™m not ignoring anything, I checked the facts and back stories from the debate and right now no one has been able to prove either way whether Corbyn lied on this, you and Hobbit believe otherwise, why does me not believing it make me any more right or wrong than you and why is it only me at fault, maybe itâ€™s you and Hobbit who are wrong and and have made up your mind regardless.
If Corbyn is proved to have lied, you can be behind me in the queue calling him out on it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jacob Rees Mogg, a senior member of the Tory party, is very popular with voters, relates well to the daily struggles of a lot of the general population and has lots of insight into what to do in a fire.  His absence from the campaign is nothing sinister. The fact is his children's nanny has a bout of leprosy but is expected to make a full recovery around the 13th December, so Jacob will be back on that day after filling in for her at home. #factcheck
		
Click to expand...

Stop it you naughty boy ðŸ¤£


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Jo swinson getting nailed last night about her Green credentials and her use of the train v;s air travel and who should get taxed on it..

she had used the train 9 times comp to 32 flights... busted


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think he is getting it a bit jumbled up but the crux of it is a manifesto ...
		
Click to expand...

Is it? Was it released yesterday? I thought the release was scheduled for today.

So are you also making things up?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

Diane Abbott has a degree in advanced mathematics from Oxford and turned down Carol Vorderman's role on Countdown to become a politician. #factcheck


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is it? Was it released yesterday? I thought the release was scheduled for today.

So are you also making things up?
		
Click to expand...

Labour manifesto launched today. Think the Conservative one is next week.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Truthful Gove says .....Scotland has increased taxes for our brave soldiers.
Fact .....only for those over a Â£33,000 income level.
Fact â€¦.Scotland has reduced taxes for the majority of soldiers based in Scotland. Some higher earners may have to pay a fraction more but will not have to pay for university fees, bridge tolls, prescriptions, dental checks etc etc.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Diane Abbott has a degree in advanced mathematics from Oxford and turned down Carol Vorderman's role on Countdown to become a politician. #factcheck
		
Click to expand...

you forgot the CCHQ bit at the end


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 21, 2019)

Ask your question to the leaders here. I've got two in already. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50425689


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just loved Ch4 Gove's interview yesterday #factcheckuk






Aside - sample of 1. I asked my wife this morning if she knew what CCHQ is.  She had no idea - and she is following the politics closely at the moment.

What the heck is a 'polemical case' - must go investigate.
		
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Gove always reminds me of a Duracell Bunny that has partaken of too much speed and coke.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jacob Rees Mogg, a senior member of the Tory party, is very popular with voters, relates well to the daily struggles of a lot of the general population and has lots of insight into what to do in a fire.  His absence from the campaign is nothing sinister. The fact is his children's nanny has a bout of leprosy but is expected to make a full recovery around the 13th December, so Jacob will be back on that day after filling in for her at home. #factcheck
		
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I heard that R-M has been spotted in deepest Somerset playing ping-pong with his neighbour Marcus Fysh

...whilst discussing the Australian Points system - Fysh of course having some knowledge of that being an Australian immig rant to the UK


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not fact Corbyn lied, have a look back and youâ€™ll see me and Hobbit discussed this last night, itâ€™s one guy, one man saying it.
And like I said last night, if itâ€™s proven  in the next few days that Corbyn lied then he should nailed to a fence and have the facts put to him.
Iâ€™m not ignoring anything, I checked the facts and back stories from the debate and right now no one has been able to prove either way whether Corbyn lied on this, you and Hobbit believe otherwise, why does me not believing it make me any more right or wrong than you and why is it only me at fault, maybe itâ€™s you and Hobbit who are wrong and and have made up your mind regardless.
If Corbyn is proved to have lied, you can be behind me in the queue calling him out on it.
		
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But it is a fact that Labour are refusing to investigate further claims, not even accepting them into their complaints procedure. Have a look at the reports about a Welsh candidate and antisemitism claims. She's not guilty of them but has left a FB page set up to advise Labour members how to defend themselves against antisemitism claims. Its a closed group but someone in the group revealed that the page had antisemitic posts.

In effect, she acknowledged they are there by leaving the group and speaking about them - that makes them a FACT. And, importantly, its a group for Labour members only AND Labour refuse to investigate it. Article on the Beeb site dated 17th Nov, 4 days ago.

To quote Ian Fleming, "once is happenstance twice is coincidence three times is enemy action." Over 600 times and you won't believe it... C'mon Paul, surely you're not going to say its all lies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But it is a fact that Labour are refusing to investigate further claims, not even accepting them into their complaints procedure. Have a look at the reports about a Welsh candidate and antisemitism claims. She's not guilty of them but has left a FB page set up to advise Labour members how to defend themselves against antisemitism claims. Its a closed group but someone in the group revealed that the page had antisemitic posts.

In effect, she acknowledged they are there by leaving the group and speaking about them - that makes them a FACT. And, importantly, its a group for Labour members only AND Labour refuse to investigate it. Article on the Beeb site dated 17th Nov, 4 days ago.

To quote Ian Fleming, "once is happenstance twice is coincidence three times is enemy action." *Over 600 times and you won't believe it... C'mon Paul, surely you're not going to say its all lies.*

Click to expand...

On Corbyn: Denial is not only a river in Egypt...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is it? Was it released yesterday? I thought the release was scheduled for today.

So are you also making things up?
		
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No he is just dropping stuff out .. the NI changes they propose were mentioned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But it is a fact that Labour are refusing to investigate further claims, not even accepting them into their complaints procedure. Have a look at the reports about a Welsh candidate and antisemitism claims. She's not guilty of them but has left a FB page set up to advise Labour members how to defend themselves against antisemitism claims. Its a closed group but someone in the group revealed that the page had antisemitic posts.

In effect, she acknowledged they are there by leaving the group and speaking about them - that makes them a FACT. And, importantly, its a group for Labour members only AND Labour refuse to investigate it. Article on the Beeb site dated 17th Nov, 4 days ago.

To quote Ian Fleming, "once is happenstance twice is coincidence three times is enemy action." Over 600 times and you won't believe it... C'mon Paul, surely you're not going to say its all lies.
		
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Come on Bri, Iâ€™ve never once said itâ€™s all lies!
Any allegations need to be investigated properly, but like any allegations in life once dealt with unless new evidence comes to light then they will be seen as closed, you know yourself some decisions are contentious and those unhappy with the outcome will refuse to accept the decision regardless and keep fighting (in some cases rightly so). 
But those investigating the allegations will also consider the same case closed.
Also not sure what you mean by Labour not investigating or refusing to accept them as only yesterday they reiterated all and any complaints received are taken seriously.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Corbyn to follow Scotland's leads in free university charges and free personal care for the elderly.
Also scrapping universal credit.
Bit of a game changer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Early predictions...
Tories will do worse than in 2017 (280 seats)
Labour will do about the same as in 2017. (266 seats)
LDs will do a bit better. (40 seats)
SNP will do a bit better (45 seats)
Think Brexit Party will fizzle out and not have much of an impact. See UKIP in 2015... 12%, no seats.

I think the Tories will make same mistakes as 2017... underestimating the task of keeping a campaign going for 6 weeks without getting shown up on domestic policy. Also underestimating strength of Labour (and Corbyn) in campaign mode.

Lib Dems and SNP should be able to cut through the noise by playing small ball on central message of EU membership, coupled with Scotland's voice for SNP in Scotland.
		
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Pretty accurate forecasting from Grant in October.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Bri, Iâ€™ve never once said itâ€™s all lies!
Any allegations need to be investigated properly, but like any allegations in life once dealt with unless new evidence comes to light then they will be seen as closed, you know yourself some decisions are contentious and those unhappy with the outcome will refuse to accept the decision regardless and keep fighting (in some cases rightly so).
But those investigating the allegations will also consider the same case closed.
*Also not sure what you mean by Labour not investigating or refusing to accept them as only yesterday they reiterated all and any complaints received are taken seriously*.
		
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You will have had a hand in promotions at work., and you will have based those promotions on past evidence. Someone being late for work occasionally, or nipping out 10 mins early occasionally won't preclude them from promotion. The investigation/case may be closed but it has relevance to that person's future prospects. And if its serious enough they will carry the stain on their record whilst they work there and, probably, will never be promoted. Its naive to suggest everything Corbyn did in the past bears no relevance to his future.

As for the bit in bold highlighted. The Welsh Labour Party reported those incidents to UK Labour's Governance and Legal Unit on Friday night. When asked by the BBC, UK Labour said they will not be investigating those claims as the candidate didn't write those posts. That in itself raises a few questions; why isn't the Labour Party investigating if its a closed group for Labour Party members? How do they know if Ms Carroll didn't make any comments if they haven't investigated? A focus group within Labour called Labour Against Antisemitism has criticised UK Labour's refusal to investigate.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but at the same time highlighting that labour wouldn't meet all its manifesto claims

Click to expand...

Perhaps badly written but not intentional.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Corbyn to follow Scotland's leads in free university charges and free personal care for the elderly.
Also scrapping universal credit.
Bit of a game changer.
		
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So he's going to give the majority of top degree courses to foreign students.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So he's going to give the majority of top degree courses to foreign students.
		
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How do we do the journey to that conclusion?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

It's so difficult being Prime Minister - remembering the detail of what's going to be in your Manifesto about to be released

_*The claim: *Boris Johnson unexpectedly unveiled the Conservatives' plan to raise the threshold at which people start paying National Insurance contributions. He said: "If we're lucky enough to be elected, so the first Budget we will go up to the Â£9,500 threshold and that will, as I say, put Â£500 into the pockets of everybody."_

_*Reality Check verdict: *That's not the correct figure. The Conservatives' own press release says the benefit from raising the threshold to Â£9,500 in 2020-21 would be Â£100 per year. The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) says it would be Â£85 per year._

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50496609

And putting aside the mere detail that Â£85 is not Â£500 - the statement by Johnson that the Tories will..."_put Â£500 into the pockets of everyone." _is simply and obviously *not true* as many workers do not earn enough to pay any NI.  Plenty of folks out there earning less than Â£166/week (Â£8632/year)

Am I allowed to call out Johnson's assertions on NI for what they are?  OK - two 'untruths' or misunderstandings/misrepresentations in 7 words.  Not bad going.

If the Tories ever get to their aspirational NI starting point of Â£12,500 - that will make those who pay NI Â£465 better off (not quite Â£500 but let's not quibble)


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

There's Patel of our one nation Tory party saying the government is not responsible of poverty.
Its those sods that form UK society who are to blame.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197464428935045123So that must mean people who voted Tory are responsible for poverty


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jo swinson getting nailed last night about her Green credentials and her use of the train v;s air travel and who should get taxed on it..

she had used the train 9 times comp to 32 flights... busted
		
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She's a LIAR.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			How do we do the journey to that conclusion?
		
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Foreign students are helping to prop up the cost of university fees in Scotland as they are providing above cost for the courses so to keep taxes down it would be tempting to adopt SNP tactics. Just a 2x2 might make 4.


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## Grant85 (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t think JC is that type of politician and I kind of respect that, as it should be us the electorate to make that decision.
I am not saying I agree with his politics but I do think he is more self control.
		
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Certainly not in his instinct to take that sort of approach, but not much point believing in a policy agenda if you never get the chance to put it into practice.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			She's a LIAR.
		
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Any I thought you didnt use that word.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There's Patel of our one nation Tory party saying the government is not responsible of poverty.
Its those sods that form UK society who are to blame.
So that must mean people who voted Tory are responsible for poverty

Click to expand...

Very clever words. Now tell me how to remove poverty and why Scotland haven't managed it, is it England's fault?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There's Patel of our one nation Tory party saying the government is not responsible of poverty.
Its those sods that form UK society who are to blame.
So that must mean people who voted Tory are responsible for poverty

Click to expand...

Only heard a snippet of her listing all who are responsible and so absolving government - her government - of the last ten years of any responsibility when it is her government that has been cutting funding to those she listed as being responsible.

And just been listening to Liz Truss being quizzed by Andrew Neil on Politics Live about Affordable Homes.

*Neil:* So in 2015 your government pledged to build 200,00 affordable starter homes, how many have been built?
*Truss:* Not sure
*Neil: *It's an easy number to remember
*Truss: *Don't know
_*Neil: *_It's zero


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You will have had a hand in promotions at work., and you will have based those promotions on past evidence. Someone being late for work occasionally, or nipping out 10 mins early occasionally won't preclude them from promotion. The investigation/case may be closed but it has relevance to that person's future prospects. And if its serious enough they will carry the stain on their record whilst they work there and, probably, will never be promoted. Its naive to suggest everything Corbyn did in the past bears no relevance to his future.

As for the bit in bold highlighted. The Welsh Labour Party reported those incidents to UK Labour's Governance and Legal Unit on Friday night. When asked by the BBC, UK Labour said they will not be investigating those claims as the candidate didn't write those posts. That in itself raises a few questions; why isn't the Labour Party investigating if its a closed group for Labour Party members? How do they know if Ms Carroll didn't make any comments if they haven't investigated? A focus group within Labour called Labour Against Antisemitism has criticised UK Labour's refusal to investigate.
		
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If it needs sorting from the top down then hopefully it will be, if that means Corbyn losing his job, great.
Iâ€™m not defending how they are dealing with the cases, just not getting drawn in to he said/she said articles, you know yourself any organisation can do 99 things correctly, but if 1 person disagrees with any of those 99 they can make their voice heard and cast doubt on all 99.
Hacker showed last night how Swinsonâ€™s husband has been smeared.
The Labour Party needs a clean out top to bottom imo, but even if that was to happen there will be people saying it doesnâ€™t.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Very clever words. Now tell me how to remove poverty and why Scotland haven't managed it, is it England's fault?
		
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i thought it was labours fault?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only heard a snippet of her listing all who are responsible and so absolving government - her government - of the last ten years of any responsibility when it is her government that has been cutting funding to those she listed as being responsible.

And just been listening to Liz Truss being quizzed by Andrew Neil on Politics Live about Affordable Homes.

*Neil:* So in 2014 your government pledged to build 200,00 affordable homes, how many have been built?
*Truss:* Not sure
*Neil: *It's an easy number to remember
*Truss *Don't know
_*Neil: *_It's zero
		
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Liz Truss is a dreadful politician. Another one who has been promoted so far above her skill level it is beyond belief. Andrew Neill taking her on is like me playing a scratch round with Rory off championship tees, it is not an equal contest.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Liz Truss is a dreadful politician. Another one who has been promoted so far above her skill level it is beyond belief. Andrew Neill taking her on is like me playing a scratch round with Rory off championship tees, it is not an equal contest.
		
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scraping the bottom of the barrel   like the rest of boris's cabinet ...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			scraping the bottom of the barrel   like the rest of boris's cabinet ... 

Click to expand...

More like looking under the barrel now.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Liz Truss is a dreadful politician. Another one who has been promoted so far above her skill level it is beyond belief. Andrew Neill taking her on is like me playing a scratch round with Rory off championship tees, it is not an equal contest.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Oh dear - those LT vids made me laugh...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

Labours sh*t or bust manifesto

https://t.co/9IqX8DFX44?amp=1


Paul Johnson, head of the independent think-tank the Institute for Fiscal Studies, was stunned by the figures being quoted in the Labour manifesto.

He told ITV News Political Correspondent Daniel Hewitt that â€œitâ€™s impossible to overstate just how extraordinary this manifesto in terms of the sheer scale of money being spent and raised through the tax systemâ€.

Mr Johnson said: "Hundreds of billions of additional spending on investment, Â£80 billion plus per year on spending on day-to-day things; social security, spending on the NHS, students loans and so on. Matched by, supposedly, an Â£80 billion increase in tax.

"Now you can talk about tens, hundreds of billions of pounds... take it from me, these are vast numbers - enormous, colossal, in the context of anything weâ€™ve seen in the last...ever...really.â€

The IFS director said it was "simply not credible" to expect Labour to raise Â£80bn of tax revenue all from companies and people earning over Â£80,000 a year.

"You cannot raise that kind of money in our tax system without affecting individuals," said Mr Johnson.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Any I thought you didnt use that word.
		
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Seems the flavour lf the month so thought i'd give it a try ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i thought it was labours fault?
		
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Eh! What has labour got to to with it?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

The Labour Manifesto makes the mistake of being honest and saying that the only viable and sustainable way to fund future spending increases that all parties are promising is to raises taxes. This is not true, to fund future spending you can promise to lower taxes and then rely on a magic money tree. #factcheck


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only heard a snippet of her listing all who are responsible and so absolving government - her government - of the last ten years of any responsibility when it is her government that has been cutting funding to those she listed as being responsible.

And just been listening to Liz Truss being quizzed by Andrew Neil on Politics Live about Affordable Homes.

*Neil:* So in 2015 your government pledged to build 200,00 affordable starter homes, how many have been built?
*Truss:* Not sure
*Neil: *It's an easy number to remember
*Truss: *Don't know
_*Neil: *_It's zero
		
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Well if Andrew Neil says it has to be true:

https://www.construction.co.uk/cons...er-66-000-affordable-homes-built-in-2015-govt


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Labours sh*t or bust manifesto

https://t.co/9IqX8DFX44?amp=1


Paul Johnson, head of the independent think-tank the Institute for Fiscal Studies, was stunned by the figures being quoted in the Labour manifesto.

He told ITV News Political Correspondent Daniel Hewitt that â€œitâ€™s impossible to overstate just how extraordinary this manifesto in terms of the sheer scale of money being spent and raised through the tax systemâ€.

Mr Johnson said: "Hundreds of billions of additional spending on investment, Â£80 billion plus per year on spending on day-to-day things; social security, spending on the NHS, students loans and so on. Matched by, supposedly, an Â£80 billion increase in tax.

"Now you can talk about tens, hundreds of billions of pounds... take it from me, these are vast numbers - enormous, colossal, in the context of anything weâ€™ve seen in the last...ever...really.â€

The IFS director said it was "simply not credible" to expect Labour to raise Â£80bn of tax revenue all from companies and people earning over Â£80,000 a year.

"You cannot raise that kind of money in our tax system without affecting individuals," said Mr Johnson.
		
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is that the same IFS who get debunked when they comment on Brexit??


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The Labour Manifesto makes the mistake of being honest and saying that the only viable and sustainable way to fund future spending increases that all parties are promising is to raises taxes. This is not true, to fund future spending you can promise to lower taxes and then rely on a magic money tree. #factcheck
		
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The magic money tree often takes the form of a utility that belongs to the public ..


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Labours sh*t or bust manifesto

https://t.co/9IqX8DFX44?amp=1


Paul Johnson, head of the independent think-tank the Institute for Fiscal Studies, was stunned by the figures being quoted in the Labour manifesto.

He told ITV News Political Correspondent Daniel Hewitt that â€œitâ€™s impossible to overstate just how extraordinary this manifesto in terms of the sheer scale of money being spent and raised through the tax systemâ€.

Mr Johnson said: "Hundreds of billions of additional spending on investment, Â£80 billion plus per year on spending on day-to-day things; social security, spending on the NHS, students loans and so on. Matched by, supposedly, an Â£80 billion increase in tax.

"Now you can talk about tens, hundreds of billions of pounds... take it from me, these are vast numbers - enormous, colossal, in the context of anything weâ€™ve seen in the last...ever...really.â€

The IFS director said it was "simply not credible" to expect Labour to raise Â£80bn of tax revenue all from companies and people earning over Â£80,000 a year.

"You cannot raise that kind of money in our tax system without affecting individuals," said Mr Johnson.
		
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How much uncollected tax do we have from Amazon, Google, facebook etc ... did they quote a figure for this and how much tax they are going to have to pay ?
you know so we can understand where we stand as tax payers .. if it amounts to me shelling out another Â£2 / week .. I can manage that, but I will have to double check.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Eh! What has labour got to to with it?
		
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you will have to rimind me of where and i what context is was relying to


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Foreign students are helping to prop up the cost of university fees in Scotland as they are providing above cost for the courses so to keep taxes down it would be tempting to adopt SNP tactics. Just a 2x2 might make 4.
		
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Sounds like a very good business model .. we get free education our educational system gets a cash injection. I would revert back to it now that the Universities are so wealthy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well if Andrew Neil says it has to be true:

https://www.construction.co.uk/cons...er-66-000-affordable-homes-built-in-2015-govt

Click to expand...

It is true, the link youâ€™ve posted are not those Andrew Neil was on about.
Heâ€™s on about the tory announcement in the link below.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...07793/no-homes-built-under-flagship-2015-tory


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only heard a snippet of her listing all who are responsible and so absolving government - her government - of the last ten years of any responsibility when it is her government that has been cutting funding to those she listed as being responsible.

And just been listening to Liz Truss being quizzed by Andrew Neil on Politics Live about Affordable Homes.

*Neil:* So in 2015 your government pledged to build 200,00 affordable starter homes, how many have been built?
*Truss:* Not sure
*Neil: *It's an easy number to remember
*Truss: *Don't know
_*Neil: *_It's zero
		
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I presume your going to point out the windfall tax porkie that McDonald told on the same program, just for balance obviously.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jo swinson getting nailed last night about her Green credentials and her use of the train v;s air travel and who should get taxed on it..

she had used the train 9 times comp to 32 flights... busted
		
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What a naughty girl .. guess her new year's resolution is to use the train .. but they better make them reliable first.

But has she got any illegitimate children or made up quotes in a national paper?


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Only heard a snippet of her listing all who are responsible and so absolving government - her government - of the last ten years of any responsibility when it is her government that has been cutting funding to those she listed as being responsible.

And just been listening to Liz Truss being quizzed by Andrew Neil on Politics Live about Affordable Homes.

*Neil:* So in 2015 your government pledged to build 200,00 affordable starter homes, how many have been built?
*Truss:* Not sure
*Neil: *It's an easy number to remember
*Truss: *Don't know
_*Neil: *_It's zero
		
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Some data....
47% (22,985) of homes started were delivered outside the Affordable Homes Programme
46% (21,155) of homes completed were delivered outside the Affordable Homes Programme
51% (21,442) of affordable starts were delivered through Section 106 agreements
54% (20,757) of affordable completions were delivered through Section 106 agreements

Labour are promising a 100,00 homes; not necessarily and most likely not houses!


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds like a very good business model .. we get free education our educational system gets a cash injection. I would revert back to it now that the Universities are so wealthy.
		
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Might be if we didn't have so many Universities who will all be trying to outdo each other. Number of foreign students in compared to the now large number of universities would have to be massive. Better idea would be to tax everyone.


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Some data....
47% (22,985) of homes started were delivered outside the Affordable Homes Programme
46% (21,155) of homes completed were delivered outside the Affordable Homes Programme
51% (21,442) of affordable starts were delivered through Section 106 agreements
54% (20,757) of affordable completions were delivered through Section 106 agreements

Labour are promising a 150,00 homes; not necessarily and most likely not houses!
		
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I think that SILH may have got the dates slightly wrong, been trying to find it on catch up.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It is true, the link youâ€™ve posted are not those Andrew Neil was on about.
Heâ€™s on about the tory announcement in the link below.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...07793/no-homes-built-under-flagship-2015-tory

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I think you will find the money was used to purchase brown field sites that would be cleared to allow new home building.  This obviously would not produce results straight away and not directly in home numbers but creates the infastructure where homes can be built.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			What a naughty girl .. guess her new year's resolution is to use the train .. but they better make them reliable first.

But has she got any illegitimate children or made up quotes in a national paper?
		
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they did ask her about all the social bills she voted against when she was in Coalistion and if she was ashamed of them.... FYI she wan't

3.22https://www.channel4.com/news/lib-d...r-job-require-her-to-regularly-fly-to-glasgow


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think that SILH may have got the dates slightly wrong, been trying to find it on catch up.
		
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See my link.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you will have to rimind me of where and i what context is was relying to
		
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Read Doons post  #1419


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you will find the money was used to purchase brown field sites that would be cleared to allow new home building.  This obviously would not produce results straight away and not directly in home numbers but creates the infastructure where homes can be built.
		
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I was simply trying to be helpful in clarifying which houses Andrew Neil was talking about.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 21, 2019)

Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one. 

Anyone else in a similar situation?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
		
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You need to balance what the individual can do locally v his party.  He will probably be constrained by the whip on how he votes on national matters so anything he can do locally will include the party line.


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
		
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I suspect most voters will still do what they've always done - you're one of the rare 'thinking' citizens: unfortunately.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
		
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as long as its not conservative.... i don't mind


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
		
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My father took an issue to his local MP, many years ago, she was absolutely fantastic. Went way beyond expectations. Resolved the issue, and also called in several times afterwards over the period of 2 years to ensure there were no repeats.

But there again, it was Mo Mowlem and she was outstanding.

I'd say vote for who you think will be best for the local area.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well if Andrew Neil says it has to be true:

https://www.construction.co.uk/cons...er-66-000-affordable-homes-built-in-2015-govt

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Cool - so you'll be able to find the the report that tells us how many have been built since 2015.  I'm not expecting all of those 66k to have been built since the May 2015 general election - and won't bother looking to see whether or not these 66k are affordable starter homes - though the Gov says they are.

Thing is.  I rather trust Andrew Neil's researching and researchers, so if Neil says something to challenge a minister I tend to err on the side of believing him.  He is not - as far as I have seen - one for leaving himself open to comebacks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			is that the same IFS who get debunked when they comment on Brexit??
		
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It's the same Paul Johnson...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...push-national-debt-to-levels-last-seen-in-60s


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think that SILH may have got the dates slightly wrong, been trying to find it on catch up.
		
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I thought I heard Neil say 2014 - but that wouldn't have made sense when the election was May 2015 so I subsequently edited my post


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's the same Paul Johnson...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...push-national-debt-to-levels-last-seen-in-60s

Click to expand...

i Know, he is an expert when he is questioning the labour partys Manif, but a crackpot Euro Lacky when questioning Tory Brexit


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought I heard Neil say 2014 - but that wouldn't have made sense when the election was May 2015 so I subsequently edited my post
		
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I didn't mishear (maybe Neil misspoke)

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...e-over-conservative-housing-figures-1-6387272


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cool - so you'll be able to find the the report that tells us how many have been built since 2015.  I'm not expecting all of those 66k to have been built since the May 2015 general election - and won't bother looking to see whether or not these 66k are affordable starter homes - though the Gov says they are.

Thing is.  I rather trust Andrew Neil's researching and researchers, so if Neil says something to challenge a minister I tend to err on the side of believing him.  He is not - as far as I have seen - one for leaving himself open to comebacks.
		
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Just done a brief search. The Gov.uk site has the number of builds, broken down into quarters. Its consistently ran at around 30k to 40k a quarter. That includes all houses. Not sure about different rules in different counties but I do know of one planning authority that stipulates that 10% of all builds must be affordable housing. Some builders get around this by having one estate with 20% affordable housing but the estate just down the road might be 100% 'posh' houses.

As an aside, a significant number of people move up the chain, typically its an affordable home at the bottom end of the chain thats freed up. Who knows, maybe things aren't where they should be but maybe its not as bad as portrayed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

The link in Post #1,443 explains the 200,000 homes Andrew Neal is on about.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			as long as its not conservative.... i don't mind

Click to expand...

I've deliberately not mentioned the parties involved as that will twist everyone's mind. Here is the thing though, what if the decent local candidate IS Conservative? I'm not saying they are but what if. Could you do it? 

The same question could be put to staunch Tories who dislike Boris or have a clown as an mp. Could you vote for a really good labour mp?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've deliberately not mentioned the parties involved as that will twist everyone's mind. Here is the thing though, what if the decent local candidate IS Conservative? I'm not saying they are but what if. Could you do it?

The same question could be put to staunch Tories who dislike Boris or have a clown as an mp. Could you vote for a really good labour mp?
		
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My uncle is a conservative councilor and he is very good, he is in tune with the local area and has had a positive affect ... but the answer is no, as I do not hold the same fundamental ideas or values.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've deliberately not mentioned the parties involved as that will twist everyone's mind. Here is the thing though, what if the decent local candidate IS Conservative? I'm not saying they are but what if. Could you do it?

The same question could be put to staunch Tories who dislike Boris or have a clown as an mp. Could you vote for a really good labour mp?
		
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No Never.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

The website https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/ has been set up by Labour to explain their policies in more detail on the day they they launched their manifesto. And is another great example of the British electorate being treated with respect and intelligence by a party that wants to gain our trust to run the country at a time of great national importance in an uncertain fake news society. #factcheck


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've deliberately not mentioned the parties involved as that will twist everyone's mind. Here is the thing though, what if the decent local candidate IS Conservative? I'm not saying they are but what if. Could you do it?

The same question could be put to staunch Tories who dislike Boris or have a clown as an mp. Could you vote for a really good labour mp?
		
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Really tricky one.  I think it has become even more difficult now as the big hitters and policy makers in both parties veer off the the relative extremes.  I'd like to think I could but in reality when I think about the type of person who that would facilitate to become important decision makers in a government I probably couldn't. And fully expect that to apply to people on both sides of the political landscape.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

Labour does not have a plan on Brexit. Despite a Labour plan on Brexit being in their manifesto. #factcheck


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've deliberately not mentioned the parties involved as that will twist everyone's mind. Here is the thing though, what if the decent local candidate IS Conservative? I'm not saying they are but what if. Could you do it?

The same question could be put to staunch Tories who dislike Boris or have a clown as an mp. Could you vote for a really good labour mp?
		
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Never in Scotland, they are truly awful.
If I still lived in England yes.

BTW 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197293607641919488There is Channel 4's Snow treating his viewers a totally impartial view of what Scottish folk think about politics by visiting the two Tory areas.
Following the same routes as Johnson and Gove.
 Just Running Scared


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2019)

So the BBC talk about the costing of the Labour manifesto  but not once mention the cost of putting back in to state control  the mail, rail, water etc ??


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ll wait to see the Manifesto before I could comment on that as I donâ€™t know.
		
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Manifesto released and it contains a pledge to reverse the cuts to corporation tax over the last decade. I think they've worded it very cleverly by saying that income tax and NI won't increase for anyone apart from the top 5%, those earning over Â£80k per year. But this rise in corporation tax will hit hundreds of thousands of people earning well below that level.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			they did ask her about all the social bills she voted against when she was in Coalistion and if she was ashamed of them.... FYI she wan't

3.22https://www.channel4.com/news/lib-d...r-job-require-her-to-regularly-fly-to-glasgow

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Think they were told to keep clegg in champagne.. well actually that as the deal.
It was sorry period in liberal history.. hopefully she has a concealed pair and stands up if she goes into coalition again.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So the BBC talk about the costing of the Labour manifesto  but not once mention the cost of putting back in to state control  the mail, rail, water etc ??
		
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Probably because it doesnâ€™t have a value yet. 
Of cause that will be inflated so the fact-check team can make some political hay with it.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it doesnâ€™t have a value yet.
Of cause that will be inflated so the fact-check team can make some political hay with it.
		
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Royal Mail is now much cheaper than it was yesterday after its share price fell over 14% today, and would expect it to fall further still in the event of a Labour GE win.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Royal Mail is now much cheaper than it was yesterday after its share price fell over 14% today, and would expect it to fall further still in the event of a Labour GE win.
		
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Interesting to see what happens to the utilities


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it doesnâ€™t have a value yet.
*Of cause that will be inflated so the fact-check team can make some political hay with it*.
		
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More than happy to help there. 

The same borrowing that both main parties will need to do will be a reckless act of financial suicide if done by Labour and a sensible investment in the future of the country if done by the Tories. #factcheck.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			More than happy to help there.

The same borrowing that both main parties will need to do will be a reckless act of financial suicide if done by Labour and a sensible investment in the future of the country if done by the Tories. #factcheck.
		
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God your good


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it doesnâ€™t have a value yet. 
Of cause that will be inflated so the fact-check team can make some political hay with it.
		
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Hang on a moment, we are looking at a massive amount of money here, can we take off the â€œred tinted, Corbyn can do no wrong â€œ specs and try and comprehend the sheer enormity of what is being suggested.

 140 billion EXTRA a year

Itâ€™s unaffordable, simple as that, especially as there will be a brain drain and companies will move abroad to low tax areas. 

I actually think that some of the labour policies are quite good, but they will simply be unable to do most of what they plan as the economics are in cloud cuckoo land.

Itâ€™s only 9 years ago that labour left that famous note saying there was no money left. This directly led to austerity which was bloody hard on many and should have been fairer. But  ultimately necessary.

There is a whole new generation of young people who have never experienced a labour government and the political cycle that has Labour cocking up the economy, the Torys get voted in and Start to fix the economy, but itâ€™s tough . They then get voted out and so on.

There is no magic money tree or forest, borrowing the sums needed to fund labours plans are impossible 

It is in my mind a recipe for disaster.

I will comment in the same balanced way when I see the Tory manifesto


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because it doesnâ€™t have a value yet. 
Of cause that will be inflated so the fact-check team can make some political hay with it.
		
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So Corbyn lied then when he said his manifesto would be FULLY costed ðŸ˜£


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Corbyn lied then when he said his manifesto would be FULLY costed ðŸ˜£
		
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Would you believe him if it did?


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## Old Skier (Nov 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Corbyn lied then when he said his manifesto would be FULLY costed ðŸ˜£
		
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Bit like the no no windfall tax statement on the gas industry less than a week ago.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hang on a moment, we are looking at a massive amount of money here, can we take off the â€œred tinted, Corbyn can do no wrong â€œ specs and try and comprehend the sheer enormity of what is being suggested.

140 billion EXTRA a year

Itâ€™s unaffordable, simple as that, especially as there will be a brain drain and companies will move abroad to low tax areas.

I actually think that some of the labour policies are quite good, but they will simply be unable to do most of what they plan as the economics are in cloud cuckoo land.

Itâ€™s only 9 years ago that labour left that famous note saying there was no money left. This directly led to austerity which was bloody hard on many and should have been fairer. But  ultimately necessary.

There is a whole new generation of young people who have never experienced a labour government and the political cycle that has Labour cocking up the economy, the Torys get voted in and Start to fix the economy, but itâ€™s tough . They then get voted out and so on.

There is no magic money tree or forest, borrowing the sums needed to fund labours plans are impossible

It is in my mind a recipe for disaster.

I will comment in the same balanced way when I see the Tory manifesto
		
Click to expand...

Have we not argued that the austerity policy has shrunk the economy? Meaning the Toryâ€™s have made it worse as opposed to fixing it? 
I know Brexit has been a distraction, but who unleashed that ??


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Corbyn lied then when he said his manifesto would be FULLY costed ðŸ˜£
		
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Its the same as last time Chris. They  say they will spend eye watering amounts of money then suggest it will be finded by tax increases for the rich and more borrowing and hey presto its fully funded.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Have we not argued that the austerity policy has shrunk the economy? Meaning the Toryâ€™s have made it worse as opposed to fixing it?
I know Brexit has been a distraction, but who unleashed that ??
		
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Without austerity how would the national defecit be reduced? I can't remember hearing much complaint about the amount of austerity the EU inflicted on Greece.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hang on a moment, we are looking at a massive amount of money here, can we take off the â€œred tinted, Corbyn can do no wrong â€œ specs and try and comprehend the sheer enormity of what is being suggested.

140 billion EXTRA a year

Itâ€™s unaffordable, simple as that, especially as there will be a brain drain and companies will move abroad to low tax areas.

I actually think that some of the labour policies are quite good, but they will simply be unable to do most of what they plan as the economics are in cloud cuckoo land.

Itâ€™s only 9 years ago that labour left that famous note saying there was no money left. This directly led to austerity which was bloody hard on many and should have been fairer. But  ultimately necessary.

There is a whole new generation of young people who have never experienced a labour government and the political cycle that has Labour cocking up the economy, the Torys get voted in and Start to fix the economy, but itâ€™s tough . They then get voted out and so on.

There is no magic money tree or forest, borrowing the sums needed to fund labours plans are impossible

It is in my mind a recipe for disaster.

I will comment in the same balanced way when I see the Tory manifesto
		
Click to expand...

Please explain how the tories have fixed the economy in the last 10 years?

More foodbanks, thousands of deaths due to austerity, more homeless, more crime, less police, less Fire stations, bigger NHS waiting lists,  oh and yes a bigger national debt that has trebled under the tories.

As for the note left at the treasury that has been explained time and time again that these notes were almost a tradition and light hearted.

I get previous Governments need time to turn things round, but come on you canâ€™t keep blaming Labour for were we are today!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Manifesto released and it contains a pledge to reverse the cuts to corporation tax over the last decade. I think they've worded it very cleverly by saying that income tax and NI won't increase for anyone apart from the top 5%, those earning over Â£80k per year. But this rise in corporation tax will hit hundreds of thousands of people earning well below that level.
		
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Please show me how, Iâ€™m not fully aware how that will happen.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			More than happy to help there.

The same borrowing that both main parties will need to do will be a reckless act of financial suicide if done by Labour and a sensible investment in the future of the country if done by the Tories. #factcheck.
		
Click to expand...

Lets wait and see the comparative amounts and then you can #factcheck it for us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets wait and see the comparative amounts and then you can #factcheck it for us.
		
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Tories have already announced their manifesto wonâ€™t be costed.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

So how much tax does google, amazon and Facebook generate?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show me how, Iâ€™m not fully aware how that will happen.
		
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I earn less than Â£45k per year so am not a top rate tax payer and am definitely not in the top 5% of earners. A corporation tax rise from 19% to 26% would cost me approx Â£3.5k per year in extra corporation tax. 

For clarity, since posting my earlier post I have read that there is a "small profits rate" of 21% and the main rate will be 26%. I can't find anything to explain what this actually means and if my company falls under the small profits rate the increase would be closer to Â£1k per year.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please explain how the tories have fixed the economy in the last 10 years?

More foodbanks, thousands of deaths due to austerity, more homeless, more crime, less police, less Fire stations, bigger NHS waiting lists,  oh and yes a bigger national debt that has trebled under the tories.

As for the note left at the treasury that has been explained time and time again that these notes were almost a tradition and light hearted.

I get previous Governments need time to turn things round, but come on you canâ€™t keep blaming Labour for were we are today!
		
Click to expand...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Without austerity how would the national defecit be reduced? I can't remember hearing much complaint about the amount of austerity the EU inflicted on Greece.
		
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Who knows, had they built the houses they said they would and not cut in other areas .. we might have known. 

The Greeks operated a paper bag economy, the Italianâ€™s do as well. Why is it harsh to not trust people who donâ€™t pay their taxes and make sure they do pay back their debts?


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hang on a moment, we are looking at a massive amount of money here, can we take off the â€œred tinted, Corbyn can do no wrong â€œ specs and try and comprehend the sheer enormity of what is being suggested.

140 billion EXTRA a year

Itâ€™s unaffordable, simple as that, especially as there will be a brain drain and companies will move abroad to low tax areas.

I actually think that some of the labour policies are quite good, but they will simply be unable to do most of what they plan as the economics are in cloud cuckoo land.

Itâ€™s only 9 years ago that labour left that famous note saying there was no money left. This directly led to austerity which was bloody hard on many and should have been fairer. But  ultimately necessary.

There is a whole new generation of young people who have never experienced a labour government and the political cycle that has Labour cocking up the economy, the Torys get voted in and Start to fix the economy, but itâ€™s tough . They then get voted out and so on.

There is no magic money tree or forest, borrowing the sums needed to fund labours plans are impossible

It is in my mind a recipe for disaster.

I will comment in the same balanced way when I see the Tory manifesto
		
Click to expand...

whern did labour c ock up the econamy?? we owe more now tha when the torys took ove from laboutr, but the ecomomy srank, wages have frozen, we pay more in VAT..that when labour where in power yet 9 years of cuts and austerity to working people and the poorest hava paid the price, where the rich have got richer and richer and richer, for the damage banks had on the british ecomomy.... who paid for that???


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I earn less than Â£45k per year so am not a top rate tax payer and am definitely not in the top 5% of earners. *A corporation tax rise from 19% to 26% would cost me approx Â£3.5k per year in extra corporation tax.*

For clarity, since posting my earlier post I have read that there is a "small profits rate" of 21% and the main rate will be 26%. I can't find anything to explain what this actually means and if my company falls under the small profits rate the increase would be closer to Â£1k per year.
		
Click to expand...

36years in the Army, got a monthly wage, I have no idea how this works, can you explain in idiot terms the bit in bold.
I do understand businessâ€™s may pass down costs to customers or no wage rises etc, but no idea in the way youâ€™ve posted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 28607

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No idea what this is, on a phone so canâ€™t see the small print sorry.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

a couple question for our tory friends.


Has rail and rail travel improved since privatisation and is it value for money

same for water..


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No idea what this is, on a phone so canâ€™t see the small print sorry.
		
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dear boy i think the work you would be looking for on this would be ..... "lies"


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			God your good
		
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It's 'you're' you illiterate moron. Fact.


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			a couple question for our tory friends.


Has rail and rail travel improved since privatisation and is it value for money

same for water..
		
Click to expand...

As a regular commuter I can say with authority that the rail system is a crock of crap.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's 'you're' you illiterate moron. Fact. 

Click to expand...

Tell that to apple ... it autocorrects everything I have so many confusing Sâ€™s and Zâ€™s


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			36years in the Army, got a monthly wage, I have no idea how this works, can you explain in idiot terms the bit in bold.
I do understand businessâ€™s may pass down costs to customers or no wage rises etc, but no idea in the way youâ€™ve posted.
		
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I was made redundant in 2009 and started working freelance/as a contractor in the oil and gas industry and have since moved mainly into the offshore wind industry. When I started I was going to be classed as "self employed/sole trader" and would have been paying tax and NI on my earnings. I was told by the tax office that I couldn't do this and had to register myself as a limited company for my invoices to paid through. This meant that instead of paying income tax and NI, I pay corporation tax on my profits. I pay myself (and Mrs Colch as she is also on the books as company secretary) a basic wage each month and on top of this pay dividends from the company profits every 3 or 4 months. 

If, as an example, after wages and expenses I have made 50k "profit" for the year then I pay corporation tax on that amount. Currently, at 19%, that would be Â£9.5k per year. At 21% it would be Â£10.5k per year and at 26% it would be Â£13k per year. The "profit" is what gets paid to me and Mrs Colch in the form of dividends. It gets a little more complicated than that as previously I didn't have to pay any personal tax on the dividends I pay myself. Recently the Tories have brought in a tax on dividends which means that on top of my corporation tax I have to pay around Â£2.5 to Â£3k per year in personal tax as well. Fortunately I don't pay Mrs Colch enough for her to have to pay tax as she is under the threshold and also has her own business/hobby that makes a small loss each year and gets offset against her earnings.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No idea what this is, on a phone so canâ€™t see the small print sorry.
		
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Its a graph showing national borrowing year on year


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## Fade and Die (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting one for me. I can't see that any of the national parties are worth voting for but I have no independent to vote for. Do I spoil? I did that last time and I don't want to two elections on the trot. I'm starting to look closer at the actual local candidates now and seeing if I can bring myself to vote for one of them on that basis. My local MP is awful so I wont vote for him. That leaves the rest. One is starting to stand out as a good local person but he stands for a national party I have never voted for, never could see myself voting for. Do I break the habit of a lifetime though? Hell fire this is a tough one.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
		
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Do you think your business will be better off with Labour or Conservative running the economy? (I know you do a lot of trade with Europe but you have to accept that we are leaving whoever wins as labours plans to nationalise industries is not compatible with being a member of the EU.)
The rise in corporation tax alone (which can lead to lower wages and an increase in prices) should put all business owners off, not to mention a rise in income tax, scrapping the married couples allowance and a rise in inheritance tax which will affect a lot of people that are not business owners. I can see why the most left wing manifesto in a generation would appeal to the great unwashed, but I find it disturbing that it would appeal to anyone with the slightest degree of business intelligence, its obvious it would be physically and fiscally impossible to raise the sort of money that Corbyn & Co pledge they will spend without destroying the whole economy!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			a couple question for our tory friends.


Has rail and rail travel improved since privatisation and is it value for money

same for water..
		
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I guess you are too young to know what state the railways were in when nationalised.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

OK, laid up with injury so I have today tried to read all 105 pages of The Labour Party Manifesto.

It reads very well, it almost feels like a fairy story at times, do I believe it? Iâ€™d like to, but too old not to be cynical.

Itâ€™s, imo, asking us all to take a big risk for a better future for all.

Bottom line, too much at once, definitely would like to see any of the Parties introduce measures that would protect and look after the weakest in society and genuinely believe there are some positives in their Manifesto.

Itâ€™ll win over some votes, but not enough to win a clear majority.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was made redundant in 2009 and started working freelance/as a contractor in the oil and gas industry and have since moved mainly into the offshore wind industry. When I started I was going to be classed as "self employed/sole trader" and would have been paying tax and NI on my earnings. I was told by the tax office that I couldn't do this and had to register myself as a limited company for my invoices to paid through. This meant that instead of paying income tax and NI, I pay corporation tax on my profits. I pay myself (and Mrs Colch as she is also on the books as company secretary) a basic wage each month and on top of this pay dividends from the company profits every 3 or 4 months.

If, as an example, after wages and expenses I have made 50k "profit" for the year then I pay corporation tax on that amount. Currently, at 19%, that would be Â£9.5k per year. At 21% it would be Â£10.5k per year and at 26% it would be Â£13k per year. The "profit" is what gets paid to me and Mrs Colch in the form of dividends. It gets a little more complicated than that as previously I didn't have to pay any personal tax on the dividends I pay myself. Recently the Tories have brought in a tax on dividends which means that on top of my corporation tax I have to pay around Â£2.5 to Â£3k per year in personal tax as well. Fortunately I don't pay Mrs Colch enough for her to have to pay tax as she is under the threshold and also has her own business/hobby that makes a small loss each year and gets offset against her earnings.
		
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So if you looked at your situation from a permanent employee state .. would you earn less but have benefits or would you earn the same and have a same level of take home pay?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was made redundant in 2009 and started working freelance/as a contractor in the oil and gas industry and have since moved mainly into the offshore wind industry. When I started I was going to be classed as "self employed/sole trader" and would have been paying tax and NI on my earnings. I was told by the tax office that I couldn't do this and had to register myself as a limited company for my invoices to paid through. This meant that instead of paying income tax and NI, I pay corporation tax on my profits. I pay myself (and Mrs Colch as she is also on the books as company secretary) a basic wage each month and on top of this pay dividends from the company profits every 3 or 4 months.

If, as an example, after wages and expenses I have made 50k "profit" for the year then I pay corporation tax on that amount. Currently, at 19%, that would be Â£9.5k per year. At 21% it would be Â£10.5k per year and at 26% it would be Â£13k per year. The "profit" is what gets paid to me and Mrs Colch in the form of dividends. It gets a little more complicated than that as previously I didn't have to pay any personal tax on the dividends I pay myself. Recently the Tories have brought in a tax on dividends which means that on top of my corporation tax I have to pay around Â£2.5 to Â£3k per year in personal tax as well. Fortunately I don't pay Mrs Colch enough for her to have to pay tax as she is under the threshold and also has her own business/hobby that makes a small loss each year and gets offset against her earnings.
		
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Cheers, absolutely clueless on what youâ€™ve posted, thanks for the clarification.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you are too young to know what state the railways were in when nationalised.
		
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They were in a poor state ? How could that happen ?? 

Oh under investment and then sold off to pay off some one else in tax cuts. 

Better factcheck that though as I have jumped to conclusions based on historical events.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you are too young to know what state the railways were in when nationalised.
		
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yeah you didn;t answer the question did you.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show me how, Iâ€™m not fully aware how that will happen.
		
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The simple answer is that a company will need to generate a profit and share dividend. The act of generating the profit and share dividend is essential to it maintaining position in the market to ensure it can borrow money from banks and receive investment(share holders buying more share, if there's a share issue).

There's 2 ways of increasing the profit level. Sell more product or reduce costs. If you assume that a company sells the same amount of product at the market rate. i.e. a price the market will accept, but costs go up, the profits and share dividend will go down.

Corporation Tax is a cost. If costs go up and the market won't buy anymore product decisions have to be made about savings elsewhere in the business. Reduced pay rises. No pay rises. But that doesn't reduce the costs. Redundancies... 

100 shop floor workers might have 2 supervisors and 1 manager. The decision is to reduce the production staff from 100 to 80, and the supervisors from 2 to 1 but they still need a manager.

That's the short, simple version but essentially accurate.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Who knows, had they built the houses they said they would and not cut in other areas .. we might have known. 

The Greeks operated a paper bag economy, the Italianâ€™s do as well. Why is it harsh to not trust people who donâ€™t pay their taxes and make sure they do pay back their debts?
		
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Was our austerity not to reduce our debts, we haven't even considered paying back what we owe.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yeah you didn;t answer the question did you.
		
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The answer is that the railways were losing massive amounts of money,  were over staffed and inefficient. Typical of nationalised industry.  Hope that helps


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer is that the railways were losing massive amounts of money,  were over staffed and inefficient. Hope that helps
		
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That hasnâ€™t changed under privatisation except Governments have still had to step in to help the â€œownersâ€


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you think your business will be better off with Labour or Conservative running the economy? (I know you do a lot of trade with Europe but you have to accept that we are leaving whoever wins as labours plans to nationalise industries is not compatible with being a member of the EU.)
The rise in corporation tax alone (which can lead to lower wages and an increase in prices) should put all business owners off, not to mention a rise in income tax, scrapping the married couples allowance and a rise in inheritance tax which will affect a lot of people that are not business owners. I can see why the most left wing manifesto in a generation would appeal to the great unwashed, but I find it disturbing that it would appeal to anyone with the slightest degree of business intelligence, its obvious it would be physically and fiscally impossible to raise the sort of money that Corbyn & Co pledge they will spend without destroying the whole economy!
		
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With JC at the head your first question only has one answer. There is a bigger picture than just the economy of course but yes, it's not a tricky question.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So if you looked at your situation from a permanent employee state .. would you earn less but have benefits or would you earn the same and have a same level of take home pay?
		
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As an employee I would almost certainly earn less but have benefits such as sick pay, pension contributions, paid holiday etc. It would be difficult to calculate if my take home pay would be more or less, as at the minute I get to decide how many days I work each year, and as an employee I wouldn't be in control of that. I get paid a rate for each day I work, normally around 150/160 days per year. As an employee I would get a basic salary and then an uplift for each day I spent offshore.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Was our austerity not to reduce our debts, we haven't even considered paying back what we owe.
		
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To reduce the deficit not the debt. Our debt has actually risen during austerity, it just hasn't risen by as much as it would have done without it.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That hasnâ€™t changed under privatisation except Governments have still had to step in to help the â€œownersâ€
		
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The railways were in very poor shape when nationalised and losing money at an  unsustainable level,  nationalised industry tends to be poorly run and a jobsworths haven with unions paralysing modernisation and enterprise. Best not to go there.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			As an employee I would almost certainly earn less but have benefits such as sick pay, pension contributions, paid holiday etc. It would be difficult to calculate if my take home pay would be more or less, as at the minute I get to decide how many days I work each year, and as an employee I wouldn't be in control of that. I get paid a rate for each day I work, normally around 150/160 days per year. As an employee I would get a basic salary and then an uplift for each day I spent offshore.
		
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Like all things there are swings and roundabouts.
I have played both sides and converted contractors to permanent.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			To reduce the deficit not the deb growth. Our debt has actually risen during austerity, it just hasn't risen by as much as it would have done without it.
		
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Yes that's what I was trying.g to explain.
Borrowing is creating debts,  if you reduce borrowing it reduces the debt. Its wrong to accuse the government of not reducing the national debt, they had no chance of that after the way Brown had hiked up borrowing to support his massive increase in welfare spending.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The railways were in very poor shape when nationalised and losing money at an  unsustainable level,  nationalised industry tends to be poorly run and a jobsworths haven with unions paralysing modernisation and enterprise. Best not to go there.
		
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Go where? Take a look at the history of the East Coast line under privatisation, Governmentâ€™s have stepped in more than once!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Go where? Take a look at the history of the East Coast line under privatisation, Governmentâ€™s have stepped in more than once!
		
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I think you will find that no Country runs railways at a profit, the choice is how bad you want it to be. Nationalisation is no answer to improving railways unless you hand over a blank cheque.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Like all things there are swings and roundabouts.
I have played both sides and converted contractors to permanent.
		
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Absolutely. But currently more swings than roundabouts. Under the plans in the Labour manifesto it could go the other way. To be honest if I did come under the 21% rate rather than the 26% rate then it wouldn't be a game changer for me with regards to this particular pledge. If my company came under the 26% rate would be an absolute no no for me in terms of voting Labour. But I do have other concerns over the Labour manifesto, such as whether it's realistic to raise an extra Â£83 billion per year in taxes to pay for their spending plans by just targeting the top 5% of earners and big businesses.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you will find that no Country runs railways at a profit, the choice is how bad you want it to be. Nationalisation is no answer to improving railways unless you hand over a blank cheque.
		
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Then maybe itâ€™s a balance of both, because I certainly donâ€™t believe we should stay as we are, we have some of the highest prices and worst services in Europe.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes that's what I was trying.g to explain.
Borrowing is creating debts,  if you reduce borrowing it reduces the debt. Its wrong to accuse the government of not reducing the national debt, they had no chance of that after the way Brown had hiked up borrowing to support his massive increase in welfare spending.
		
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You're possibly not explaining yourself correctly. Reducing borrowing doesn't reduce debt. The government hasn't reduced the national debt, they have only reduced the rate by which the debt is increasing by reducing the deficit. In 2010 the national debt was Â£1 trillion. As of March this year it was Â£1.8 trillion. Austerity has done nothing to reduce the debt but has slowed the rate at which the debt was increasing.


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## DRW (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely. But currently more swings than roundabouts. Under the plans in the Labour manifesto it could go the other way. To be honest if I did come under the 21% rate rather than the 26% rate then it wouldn't be a game changer for me with regards to this particular pledge. If my company came under the 26% rate would be an absolute no no for me in terms of voting Labour. But I do have other concerns over the Labour manifesto, such as whether it's realistic to raise an extra Â£83 billion per year in taxes to pay for their spending plans by just targeting the top 5% of earners and big businesses.
		
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If you read the document, there is also dividends tax to be taxed at full (?) income tax rates(currently as a basic rate tax payer you pay 'new' 7.5% that the conservatives brought in) and they say scrap the dividend allowance. So quite an increase there as well.

That plus the increase in corporation tax.

Find it hard to believe small or large businesses will be smiling.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then maybe itâ€™s a balance of both, because I certainly donâ€™t believe we should stay as we are, we have some of the highest prices and worst services in Europe.
		
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I agree on the highest prices bit, and by some tune, but not the worst services bit. Not every high speed, main line train is the glitzy TGF or Renfe you see on the TV, and the local stopping trains are hilarious. We did the stopper between Cadiz and Jerez. Did it leave on time? No, the driver was stood on the platform waiting for his mother and her friends. And at one of the stops he got off for a coffee and a chat with the locals. It has a lovely, rural, rustic feel to it. No one is in a rush, its not in the psyche.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely. But currently more swings than roundabouts. Under the plans in the Labour manifesto it could go the other way. To be honest if I did come under the 21% rate rather than the 26% rate then it wouldn't be a game changer for me with regards to this particular pledge. If my company came under the 26% rate would be an absolute no no for me in terms of voting Labour. But I do have other concerns over the Labour manifesto, such as whether it's realistic to raise an extra Â£83 billion per year in taxes to pay for their spending plans by just targeting the top 5% of earners and big businesses.
		
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Wonder how many of the top 5% will be hanging around or moving business elsewhere and then what ?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2019)

DRW said:



			If you read the document, there is also dividends tax to be taxed at full (?) income tax rates(currently as a basic rate tax payer you pay 'new' 7.5% that the conservatives brought in) and they say scrap the dividend allowance. So quite an increase there as well.

That plus the increase in corporation tax.

Find it hard to believe small or large businesses will be smiling.
		
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Oh balls. I hadn't seen that bit.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Wonder how many of the top 5% will be hanging around or moving business elsewhere and then what ?
		
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Probably the same amount that threatened to leave if Blair got in.
None of them!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You're possibly not explaining yourself correctly. Reducing borrowing doesn't reduce debt. The government hasn't reduced the national debt, they have only reduced the rate by which the debt is increasing by reducing the deficit. In 2010 the national debt was Â£1 trillion. As of March this year it was Â£1.8 trillion. Austerity has done nothing to reduce the debt but has slowed the rate at which the debt was increasing.
		
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 That's what im saying, I know we have not reduced any of the debt, I've said that a number of times.  I said that reducing the deficit stops the debt growing as fast, or thats what I meant.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably the same amount that threatened to leave if Blair got in.
None of them!
		
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A lot went when income tax reached 90% at the top. I think its proven that lower rates produce more revenue, a flat rate across the board would be better.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably the same amount that threatened to leave if Blair got in.
None of them!
		
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I wouldn't count on that. I wonder how many big businesses would consider moving the HQ to the Cayman Islands? The business stays, and continues to generate a profit, and the employees continue to pay income tax but all that juicy Corporation Tax goes where - think Amazon/Google...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't count on that. I wonder how many big businesses would consider moving the HQ to the Cayman Islands? The business stays, and continues to generate a profit, and the employees continue to pay income tax but all that juicy Corporation Tax goes where - think Amazon/Google...
		
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Absolutely,  there are a lot of BVI  companies like that already, also ones with HQs in Monaco.


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## BrianM (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Show me Corbyns and Swinsons lies, show me were they have been sacked for lying.
As SR keeps saying Liar is a harsh word.

Totally agree all Politicians are untrustworthy, but thatâ€™s a big difference to actual being a proven liar
		
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Youâ€™re in a dream world, they will tell you anything to get a vote, lies or not, they couldnâ€™t care less.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't count on that. I wonder how many big businesses would consider moving the HQ to the Cayman Islands? The business stays, and continues to generate a profit, and the employees continue to pay income tax but all that juicy Corporation Tax goes where - think Amazon/Google...
		
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A lot businessâ€™s said the same over Brexit, yet this was laughed at.
Even today you had people lauding the IFS when they stated they didnâ€™t believe Labour could achieve the sums through tax proposals, this is the same IFS that was dismissed when they stated the worst scenario for the economy was a No Deal Brexit.

Very difficult to get to the truth of any of the different party proposals when itâ€™s all being hit with political spin.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 21, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Youâ€™re in a dream world, they will tell you anything to get a vote, lies or not, they couldnâ€™t care less.
		
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That maybe how itâ€™s been for you and MPâ€™s youâ€™ve dealt with, but not in mine and others actual experience.
Itâ€™s sad youâ€™d tarnish every MP with the same brush.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			A lot businessâ€™s said the same over Brexit, yet this was laughed at.
Even today you had people lauding the IFS when they stated they didnâ€™t believe Labour could achieve the sums through tax proposals, this is the same IFS that was dismissed when they stated the worst scenario for the economy was a No Deal Brexit.

Very difficult to get to the truth of any of the different party proposals when itâ€™s all being hit with political spin.
		
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34% of businesses, with direct operations in the EU, monitored by Ersnt and Young have confirmed they have or are moving all or part of their business to the EU. 2% moved in total last month, up 1% from the month before.

Brexit has, and will continue, to impact on businesses and they will look to mitigate that impact(cost). If higher Corporation Tax is added to the equation their boards will have the shareholders to answer to if they don't look to mitigate those additional costs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

And here is well known liar Alisdair Carmichael [remember him from 'quoting' the French ambassador]  giving us another good reason not to trust the Lib Dems

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/tom-swarbrick/lib-dems-suffer-second-car-crash-lbc-interview/


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Corbyn lied then when he said his manifesto would be FULLY costed ðŸ˜£
		
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Costing something does not make it affordable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2019)

Looks like the 'factcheck' spoof is being turned around to bite the Tories in the rear end.

File under 'Well it seemed like a good idea at the time'.


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't count on that. I wonder how many big businesses would consider moving the HQ to the Cayman Islands? The business stays, and continues to generate a profit, and the employees continue to pay income tax but all that juicy Corporation Tax goes where - think Amazon/Google...
		
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You only have to look at how businesses moved into Ireland when they cut corporation tax. Modern businesses are agile not loyal.


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## chrisd (Nov 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Costing something does not make it affordable.
		
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I realise that, but just pointing out that apparently most of the manifesto is NOT costed at all, despite promises that it would be


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## Dando (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I realise that, but just pointing out that apparently most of the manifesto is NOT costed at all, despite promises that it would be
		
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That wonâ€™t be classed as a lie, just a mistruth


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I realise that, but just pointing out that apparently most of the manifesto is NOT costed at all, despite promises that it would be
		
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I thought team tory had offered to do the costing on Labour's behalf...
#factcheck


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer is that the railways were losing massive amounts of money,  were over staffed and inefficient. Typical of nationalised industry.  Hope that helps
		
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what are they now?? aprt from the over staffing bit

run for profit, poor service, poor investment, rinsing ticketprices for the GP  and still costs the tax payer.


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## Wolf (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I realise that, but just pointing out that apparently most of the manifesto is NOT costed at all, despite promises that it would be
		
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Therein lays my issue with the labour Manifesto, JC promised live on air in the debate it will be 100% fully costed but it s not at all. There are some costs in there and they're quite eye watering and I can't see how they think only the top 5% and businesses will be covering that amount let alone the costs involved that haven't been published despite being told they would be. 

Thee are some nice ideas in there if truth be told but I can't see how they're affordable without hitting the everyday man with more taxes and without impacting small businesses in negative way. 

Guess I'll have to look at the other parties ones and see which is the least fairytale in its approach


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2019)

So who do you vote for.


Tories and the Buffon that is Boris.
Labour and the Clown that is Jezza.
lib dems and the party that ignores democracy.
Brexit and the Clown that is Farage.
SNP and Mr Salmond

Spoilt for choice don't spring to mind.


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## jp5 (Nov 22, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197666606811426818


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 22, 2019)

The Labour clown on the same show who thinks there are thousands upon thousands of billionaires all here in the UK ready to pay a ton more tax to fund all their ideas.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2019)

jp5 said:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197666606811426818

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Yeah I saw that bit last night,  me thinks he was a little confused and very wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So who do you vote for.


Tories and the Buffon that is Boris.
Labour and the Clown that is Jezza.
lib dems and the party that ignores democracy.
Brexit and the Clown that is Farage.
SNP and Mr Salmond

Spoilt for choice don't spring to mind.
		
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Two of those you cannot vote for.  #real factcheck


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two of those you cannot vote for.  #real factcheck
		
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And one has a lot more to be worrying about.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Therein lays my issue with the labour Manifesto, JC promised live on air in the debate it will be 100% fully costed but it s not at all. There are some costs in there and they're quite eye watering and I can't see how they think only the top 5% and businesses will be covering that amount let alone the costs involved that haven't been published despite being told they would be. 

Thee are some nice ideas in there if truth be told but I can't see how they're affordable without hitting the everyday man with more taxes and without impacting small businesses in negative way. 

Guess I'll have to look at the other parties ones and see which is the least fairytale in its approach
		
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A sound idea !

The extra costs to business etc will all filter down and affect jobs and wages. The plans as a whole will put us back to where we were in 2010 "there's no money left"


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## Wolf (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			A sound idea !

The extra costs to business etc will all filter down and affect jobs and wages. The plans as a whole will put us back to where we were in 2010 "there's no money left"
		
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100% in agreement with you on this Chris. Costs have to filter down especially amongst SME's. That will ultimately affect the ability they have to pay staff, which could result in cut backs and loss of jobs. So instead of earning the minimum proposed Â£10p/h that person goes on instead to become another stag in the benefit system and the merry go round continues. 

Then there's the point of creating another national Bank to allow for an additional Â£250billion of borrowing, that borrowing has to be paid back by someone and that has to be tax payers unless they think always these top 5% plus business can fund every single part of there partially costed manifesto. If they do think that then someone has been on the crack pipe. 

I like some of the ideas but the numbers don't add up and that's just the numbers they have actually published.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2019)

I must confess that this surprised me,

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-hmrc-rich-top-5-percent-denial-a7697561.html


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

An OECD report just out predicts growth in the UK will drop to 1% from about 1.5%. Eurozone will see a similar drop. Japan's down to 0.6%, China and USA also slowing down.

Against this the UK is still looking 'inside' and with the main parties going on a spending spree. Labour's manifesto has been declared un-affordable by the IMF.

IMO this election choice is about the least damaging policies; Liberals have no 'real' economic/international plans other than cancel Brexit; Labour no international looking policies (except make the UK the last place to invest) seem entirely bent on 'cuckoo land' spending promises that just create an anti-Tory sentiment; Tories are attempting to deflect Labour's policies and get Brexit finished.

At least there's only 3 weeks of fairy tales to go.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 22, 2019)

The note left by Labour saying '_there's no money left'_ was not in fact a bit of dark humour in the wake of the global financial crash with the expectation that it would be kept confidential as just about every other note has between treasury secretaries has, but was in fact a blatant admission that Labour can not be trusted to run the economy as they caused the global financial crash. And when a Tory chancellor did a very similar thing previously it was a bit of dark humour and clearly not to be taken seriously. #factcheck


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

Wolf said:



			100% in agreement with you on this Chris. Costs have to filter down especially amongst SME's. That will ultimately affect the ability they have to pay staff, which could result in cut backs and loss of jobs. So instead of earning the minimum proposed Â£10p/h that person goes on instead to become another stag in the benefit system and the merry go round continues. 

Then there's the point of creating another national Bank to allow for an additional Â£250billion of borrowing, that borrowing has to be paid back by someone and that has to be tax payers unless they think always these top 5% plus business can fund every single part of there partially costed manifesto. If they do think that then someone has been on the crack pipe. 

I like some of the ideas but the numbers don't add up and that's just the numbers they have actually published.
		
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Add to that the extra taxation on share dividends, businesses giving 1% of their shares to the workforce per year for 10 years. As you say the Â£10 per hour just adds to the business costs and is paid by price increases. Taxing second homes will probably mean rental houses too and will mean rent increases for tenants. They need to earn Â£83b in extra taxes just to pay for the budget they've costed, a colossal sum, and then add the things they've not costed eg rail, mail, utilities etc and the scale is totally mind boggling


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2019)

I would assume that offering groups of people cash to vote for a particular party would be illegal. But all of these manifestos seem to be bribes or inducements to vote for a party. Labour are clearly going after younger voters (scrap tuition fees, free bus travel for under 25's etc) and the public sector workers (5% pay rise). The Tories will be going for different groups but ultimately using the same tactics.


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## Wolf (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Add to that the extra taxation on share dividends, businesses giving 1% of their shares to the workforce per year for 10 years. As you say the Â£10 per hour just adds to the business costs and is paid by price increases. Taxing second homes will probably mean rental houses too and will mean rent increases for tenants. They need to earn Â£83b in extra taxes just to pay for the budget they've costed, a colossal sum, and then add the things they've not costed eg rail, mail, utilities etc and the scale is totally mind boggling
		
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Exactly it all comes back to the age old saying, "nothing is more certain in life than death and taxes". 

The plan to renationalise Rail, Mail, Utilities creation of new national Bank and Nationalising part of BT to provide free broadband provision to all may well sound like the socialist utopia people want the cold hard truth is someone has to pay for it and ultimately taxes and costs trickle down and will very much impact the average working person.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would assume that offering groups of people cash to vote for a particular party would be illegal. But all of these manifestos seem to be bribes or inducements to vote for a party. Labour are clearly going after younger voters (scrap tuition fees, free bus travel for under 25's etc) and the public sector workers (5% pay rise). The Tories will be going for different groups but ultimately using the same tactics.
		
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That's what they all do, but, the Tory plans seem much less costly


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 22, 2019)

When every independent financial organisation who made projections concluded that Brexit would have a harmful impact on the economy they are not really to be trusted as they are mostly project fear as who knows what will happen in the future. When any organisation make a projection about the impact of Labour's manifesto on the economy and it happens to be negative then these are now to be completely trusted and used as evidence that labour can not look after the economy. #factcheck


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

Marginal rates of tax for a basic rate tax payer & small profit business, under labour(once you hits the various limits) :-

Self Employed.........    29.00%   (20% tax + 9% NIC)
Employee...............                32.00%   (20% tax + 12 NIC)
Ltd company owner.  36.80% (assuming dividends drawn out of company)  (21% tax + an effective 15.8% dividend tax) [currently it is 25.08%)

Eye watering comparison, who would ever setup a small Ltd company business and look to employee people and grow a business(and that ignores the current position of employee rights/pensions/red tape etc that is a big worry/expense to business).

And the thought of the actions they are considering on very large business, is just very naÃ¯ve on the global basis. Large business can operate from anywhere in the world, can import into the UK and not operate from here and so on, they are the most mobile of 'legal person/entities' and will just walk away and import into the UK.

EDIT I have already seen some small business incorporate foreign companies and move 'those' activities abroad...which has meant less income to the UK and employees in the UK due to Brexit. Tip of the iceberg.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Marginal rates of tax for a basic rate tax payer & small profit business, under labour(once you hits the various limits) :-

Self Employed.........    29.00%   (20% tax + 9% NIC)
Employee...............                32.00%   (20% tax + 12 NIC)
Ltd company owner.  36.80% (assuming dividends drawn out of company)  (21% tax + an effective 15.8% dividend tax) [currently it is 25.08%)

Eye watering comparison, who would ever setup a small Ltd company business and look to employee people and grow a business(and that ignores the current position of employee rights/pensions/red tape etc that is a big worry/expense to business).

And the thought of the actions they are considering on very large business, is just very naÃ¯ve on the global basis. Large business can operate from anywhere in the world, can import into the UK and not operate from here and so on, they are the most mobile of 'legal person/entities' and will just walk away and import into the UK.

EDIT I have already seen some small business incorporate foreign companies and move 'those' activities abroad...which has meant less income to the UK and employees in the UK due to Brexit. Tip of the iceberg.
		
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Spot on mate!
Boy am I glad that I retired from my own business when I did. There is absolutely no doubt that the only party that helped through the 25 years I ran it were Tory and anyone who thinks the Labour party is the workers friend is, I'm afraid, deluded


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## jp5 (Nov 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			When every independent financial organisation who made projections concluded that Brexit would have a harmful impact on the economy they are not really to be trusted as they are mostly project fear as who knows what will happen in the future. When any organisation make a projection about the impact of Labour's manifesto on the economy and it happens to be negative then these are now to be completely trusted and used as evidence that labour can not look after the economy. #factcheck
		
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I think you've cracked it!

IFS good today or bad today?


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			A lot businessâ€™s said the same over Brexit, yet this was laughed at.
Even today you had people lauding the IFS when they stated they didnâ€™t believe Labour could achieve the sums through tax proposals, this is the same IFS that was dismissed when they stated the worst scenario for the economy was a No Deal Brexit.

Very difficult to get to the truth of any of the different party proposals when itâ€™s all being hit with political spin.
		
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Strange isn't it, seems like the IFS is used as a political football, good when it suits, bad when it doesn't. Good to see the Marxist MacDonald picked up on Breakfast this morning. Only yesterday he quoted the IFS when quoting Tory figures and dissing them this morning and saying they get things wrong when they questioned his.

Would like to see commentators doing more of this when they interview all parties. Who funds the IFS?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			A sound idea !

The extra costs to business etc will all filter down and affect jobs and wages. The plans as a whole will put us back to where we were in 2010 "there's no money left"
		
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...and the quite possible additional costs incurred by many if not most SMEs as a result of a No Deal Brexit - or indeed Johnson's Deal?  Where will they go?

Because even if you accept the assertion that great new trade deals will expand opportunity for SMEs - these great new deals are not going to happen overnight - and an additional cost burden will.   And they almost certainly won't result in increased wages that many who voted to leave expect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			That's what they all do, but, the Tory plans seem much less costly
		
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You have had early sight of the costed Tory Party Manifesto?  Thought that was coming out on Tuesday?

Did you see that the Tory Party costings of the Labour Manifesto (Â£1.2Tr I think the figure was) included stuff that isn't in the current manifesto but was in the 2017 one, plus stuff the Labour Party have talked about since and was in neither.  

https://fullfact.org/news/conservative-claim-labour-1-trillion/ 

Neat trick (or a deceit) but beedin' obvious unless you don't think for two seconds

And yes I know that the Labour manifesto costings does not include some major commitments that they have costed separate and not specifically in their manifesto.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and the quite possible additional costs incurred by many if not most SMEs as a result of a No Deal Brexit - or indeed Johnson's Deal?  Where will they go?
		
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Why will "many if not most SMEs" face additional costs due to Brexit?

There are over 5 million SMEs in the UK (2017 figures) of these less than 250000 were importing/exporting to or from the EU or rest of the world so I will say that your claim is BS. Many if not most SMEs will face no additional costs due to Brexit as their business is entirely UK focussed.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and the quite possible additional costs incurred by many if not most SMEs as a result of a No Deal Brexit - or indeed Johnson's Deal?  Where will they go?

Because even if you accept the assertion that great new trade deals will expand opportunity for SMEs - these great new deals are not going to happen overnight - and an additional cost burden will.   And they almost certainly won't result in increased wages that many who voted to leave expect.
		
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If the EU give us the free trade deal that they will need to I dont see that there need be an additional cost burden. If they treat us like they have in the recent leave process there may be a short term loss but a long term gain


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You have had early sight of the costed Tory Party Manifesto?  Thought that was coming out on Tuesday?
		
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Everything they've trickle fed out has more expenditure than the last 10 years but no where near the enormous costs of the Labour  plans, but time will tell


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why will "many if not most SMEs" face additional costs due to Brexit?

There are over 5 million SMEs in the UK (2017 figures) of these less than 250000 were importing/exporting to or from the EU or rest of the world so I will say that your claim is BS. Many if not most SMEs will face no additional costs due to Brexit as their business is entirely UK focussed.
		
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I was going to post on a similar basis but, of course, many SME's do indirectly import and their costs could increase


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what are they now?? aprt from the over staffing bit

run for profit, poor service, poor investment, rinsing ticketprices for the GP  and still costs the tax payer.
		
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Well, nobody's talking much about the principle of private v nationisation .
I get the impression that some posters on here are owners of businesses, some , if not all, being against the railways nationalisation.
May I ask you this? If you sold your business to me and I ran it and made a profit, you would not expect me to give you some of those profits,would you? On the other hand, if I made a loss, what would you say if I came to you for some more funds to continue running the business.?
Exactly. Go forth and multiply.
But that is what the private train companies do ask of the Government, do they not, when making a loss?
It's wrong . It's having the cheek of the devil.
But why is it considered OK for the Government to pump money into the railways, even under these circumstances of private ownership?
Because they are a vital part of a country's infrastructure and necessary for it to survive as a secure and properly functioning unit, under all circumstances, even in war.
Same applies to utilities like water and power. They are a country's  essential assets without which it couldn't function and keep its citizens safe.
So they should, for that reason alone, be controlled by the Government. And they cannot do that properly if owned privately.
Whether they are run inefficiently seems the main argument of those opposed to nationalisation, but it is a minor consideration compared with those reasons above.
To argue otherwise is a call for the Armed forces and Emergency services, Health service etc to be privatised.
Whether anything is run efficiently or not is down to good strong management, free of political correctness, and that is achievable, by good fair personnel -privately or nationally owned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			A sound idea !

The extra costs to business etc will all filter down and affect jobs and wages. *The plans as a whole will put us back to where we were in 2010* "there's no money left"
		
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Great news, more police, no austerity, better NHS, less child poverty, more fire stations, less crime, Cheers Chris


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Everything they've trickle fed out has more expenditure than the last 10 years but no where near the enormous costs of the Labour  plans, but time will tell
		
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This is true - but we don't actually know how much it will be and how affordable it will be


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Strange isn't it, seems like the IFS is used as a political football, good when it suits, bad when it doesn't. Good to see the Marxist MacDonald picked up on Breakfast this morning. Only yesterday he quoted the IFS when quoting Tory figures and dissing them this morning and saying they get things wrong when they questioned his.

Would like to see commentators doing more of this when they interview all parties. Who funds the IFS?
		
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No idea mate, but this isnâ€™t new, political parties of all persuasions have being treating us like idiots for years and instead of them being called out we insult each other.


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## Colonel Bogey (Nov 22, 2019)

Who here really thinks either party will carry out their current pledges?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great news, more police, no austerity, better NHS, less child poverty, more fire stations, less crime, Cheers Chris

Click to expand...

 And no a Labour government. ðŸ˜‰


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Who here really thinks either party will carry out their current pledges?
		
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Sadly I think Labour will, it's the Marxists last chance saloon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah I saw that bit last night,  me thinks he was a little confused and very wrong.
		
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O'Brien talking about this at the moment.  As he has said - he suspects that the bloke doesn't and can't actually believe that by earning over Â£80k he would be in the top 5%.   Because for him it's a good income - but not a top 5% income. Unfortunately it is.

BTW - O'Brien is discussing _why _the guy thought what he did - and the way the audience reacted...some at first applauding him - on calling Labour Liars - then the penny dropped when they twigged *why* he was calling Labour that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Sadly I think Labour will, it's the Marxists last chance saloon.
		
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Speaking with Mrs Hogan earlier - she is liking what Corbyn is saying - and she is actually quite liking Corbyn - even though she says he looks a mess 

And we were thinking that the clear rationale for what Corbyn is setting out is that the policies directly address almost ALL of the key issues that impact the lower paid and unemployed.

Corbyn knows that many of these voters up North voted to leave for lack of provision in the areas Labour area targetting - and he is gambling that some Labour Leave voters who are saying they are going to vote Try/TBP will look at what Labour is offering - compare with what they believe Brexit will deliver - and they'll just go for Labour as Labour policies will address their problems.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great news, more police, no austerity, better NHS, less child poverty, more fire stations, less crime, Cheers Chris

Click to expand...

Until about 2 weeks later when they had to slash everything to survive ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

I could see the 'black economy' flourishing under Labour - Fish n Chip shops, Hair dressers will be _*cashing*_ in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I think you've cracked it!

IFS good today or bad today?
		
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And IMF (see also endless criticism of Christine Lagarde)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			And no a Labour government. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Depends which part of 2010.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Until about 2 weeks later when they had to slash everything to survive ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
		
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And make the rich richer.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And make the rich richer.

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The rich always get richer but they do pay more tax by % than anyone else


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you will find that no Country runs railways at a profit, the choice is how bad you want it to be. Nationalisation is no answer to improving railways unless you hand over a blank cheque.
		
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TfL is nationalised and receives not a penny from central government... It's not perfect but efficient enough that the majority of commuters, in the home counties, would like to see their Overground services brought under the wing of TfL...

Compare that to Branson who has trousered millions of taxpayers money and still provides an underperforming service... And, worse still, supports remain...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The rich always get richer but they do pay more tax by % than anyone else
		
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Rightly so, even the idiot on QT last night failed to realise that those earning 80K pa on Labourâ€™s plans would only amount to Â£4.81 per week, a sum most of us regardless of wage would happily pay if it meant a better NHS etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

We spotted this morning that the National Health Action Party are not putting up a candidate in our constituency this time (Jeremy Hunt no longer Health and Social Care Secretary - no point) but also it looks like they don't have any candidates anywhere - so keeping out of the way of the LibDems?. 

I am thinking that, in our constituency, most of the NHA Parties 12,093 votes from 2017 will go to the LibDems.  So we have 3 candidates - Labour, LibDems and Tories.


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## bobmac (Nov 22, 2019)

So when Labour lose the election, will they accept the decision of the people or push for a second election?


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rightly so, even the idiot on QT last night failed to realise that those earning 80K pa on Labourâ€™s plans would only amount to Â£4.81 per week, a sum most of us regardless of wage would happily pay if it meant a better NHS etc.
		
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Got the calculations for that ? and the basis of it ? (ie is it for an straight employee earning Â£x ?) I suspect it has been based on a lower paid employee only basis?

Once you go above the Â£80k, you will be paying ALOT more and some of the marginal rates of taxes are a bit scary(like old labour days), especially if the personal allowances are taken away still at 100k.

Limited company owners, are going to be paying loads loads more than that, so your Peter Plumbers Ltd earning say Â£30k before personal allowances is going to be pay way more than Â£250 a year. A quick calculation shows that they will pay about Â£2,200 more in tax. If they earn 40k, then this increases to about Â£3,300 more in tax  These are not people I would class as earnings loads of money, just earning a living, working 5-7 days a week/evenings and so on but sorry sir, open your pockets and empty them to me.

A quick question, how much more would you be willing to pay per year, for everything you wish for ? Are you thinking Â£200 per year or Â£500 or Â£1000 or a more realistic figure of say Â£2500-5000 ? Be interested to hear?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

bobmac said:



			So when Labour lose the election, will they accept the decision of the people or push for a second election?
		
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They won't have to push because they know the fixed-term parliament act has another election coming along in 5yrs time - max.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Got the calculations for that ? and the basis of it ? (ie is it for an straight employee earning Â£x ?) I suspect it has been based on a lower paid employee only basis?

Once you go above the Â£80k, you will be paying ALOT more and some of the marginal rates of taxes are a bit scary(like old labour days), especially if the personal allowances are taken away still at 100k.

Limited company owners, are going to be paying loads loads more than that, so your Peter Plumbers Ltd earning say Â£30k before personal allowances is going to be pay way more than Â£250 a year. A quick calculation shows that they will pay about Â£2,200 more in tax. If they earn 40k, then this increases to about Â£3,300 more in tax  These are not people I would class as earnings loads of money, just earning a living, working 5-7 days a week/evenings and so on but sorry sir, open your pockets and empty them to me.

A quick question, how much more would you be willing to pay per year, for everything you wish for ? Are you thinking Â£200 per year or Â£500 or Â£1000 or a more realistic figure of say Â£2500-5000 ? Be interested to hear?
		
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I might be missing something but sums are quite easy.  If I earn Â£85k then I would pay an additional 5% income tax on Â£5k.  And that's Â£4.80 / week - the cost of a pint and a packet of crisps in my cheapest local.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Got the calculations for that ? and the basis of it ? (ie is it for an straight employee earning Â£x ?) I suspect it has been based on a lower paid employee only basis?

Once you go above the Â£80k, you will be paying ALOT more and some of the marginal rates of taxes are a bit scary(like old labour days), especially if the personal allowances are taken away still at 100k.

Limited company owners, are going to be paying loads loads more than that, so your Peter Plumbers Ltd earning say Â£30k before personal allowances is going to be pay way more than Â£250 a year. A quick calculation shows that they will pay about Â£2,200 more in tax. If they earn 40k, then this increases to about Â£3,300 more in tax  These are not people I would class as earnings loads of money, just earning a living, working 5-7 days a week/evenings and so on but sorry sir, open your pockets and empty them to me.

A quick question, how much more would you be willing to pay per year, for everything you wish for ? Are you thinking Â£200 per year or Â£500 or Â£1000 or a more realistic figure of say Â£2500-5000 ? Be interested to hear?
		
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There is a online tax calculator, I put in the figure of Â£85000 as we have no idea of his actual wage.

As for what Iâ€™d be happy to pay, Iâ€™m not sure anyone could answer, itâ€™s relative to my personal situation isnâ€™t it, a Â£1000 pa or 5% etc to me maybe peanuts and a fortune to you.
Would certainly be happy paying more if it guaranteed a better society, would be disappointed if it meant bigger profits for the rich.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

bobmac said:



			So when Labour lose the election, will they accept the decision of the people or push for a second election?
		
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Depends if the tories fail to sort anything out after 3 years like they have with brexit.


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Meanwhile the readers of the Daily Express are to be scared s***less by headlines such as those in today's Daily Express?

*Â£80Bn RAID ON YOUR WALLETS*

https://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper 

Now is that a deceit, misinformation, fake news or simply a lie?  I guess it depends upon who you *honestly *think the the target audience for their YOUR is - but I suspect that many if not most of the readers of the Daily Express will not pay a penny more.


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile the readers of the Daily Express are to be scared s***less by headlines such as those in today's Daily Express?

*Â£80Bn RAID ON YOUR WALLETS*

https://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper

Now is that a deceit, misinformation, fake news or simply a lie?  I guess it depends upon who you *honestly *think the the target audience for their YOUR is - but I suspect that many if not most of the readers of the Daily Express will not pay a penny more.
		
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Blinkers off then perhaps you'd could take note of the FT...
" _Labour_ sets out plans to raise taxes by Â£_80bn_ a year â€“ latest news ... The _FT's_ chief political correspondent Jim Pickard  "


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There is a online tax calculator, I put in the figure of Â£85000 as we have no idea of his actual wage.

As for what Iâ€™d be happy to pay, Iâ€™m not sure anyone could answer, itâ€™s relative to my personal situation isnâ€™t it, a Â£1000 pa or 5% etc to me maybe peanuts and a fortune to you.
Would certainly be happy paying more if it guaranteed a better society, would be disappointed if it meant bigger profits for the rich.
		
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Its a simple employee net pay calculator.  The calculator is somewhat worrying, as using this years tax rates/allowance an employee earning Â£85000, would only pay Â£21,500 in tax and you show Â£22,360, What is that about

So basically it ignores the vast number of people who will be paying the lion share of the additional tax, like business Ltd owners and companies. 

Have you read this and understood who will be paying for it :-

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf

I am always interested when people say what they want, as most people aren't actually willing to pay the extra Â£2.5-5k needed to do it.

The examples I gave  before are real life Joe public business owners. Â£2200(30k earnings) and Â£3300(40k earnings) worse off. These are people who would employee people and wont be able to afford to, due to taxation, Â£10 per hour and 32 hour week, 4 more paid holiday days etc

And to think I was thinking of voting labour this time. Not anymore, its crazy and feel for all those hard working business owners. 

As mentioned before I am already seeing clients moving operations abroad and monies not invested in the UK due to uncertainty and high taxation will be another nail in the coffin. I find it very worrying for a UK Plc point of view.

Now wheres that link to apply for an Ireland passport


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Its a simple employee net pay calculator.  The calculator is somewhat worrying, as using this years tax rates/allowance an employee earning Â£85000, would only pay Â£21,500 in tax and you show Â£22,360, What is that about

So basically it ignores the vast number of people who will be paying the lion share of the additional tax, like business Ltd owners and companies.

Have you read this and understood who will be paying for it :-

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf

I am always interested when people say what they want, as most people aren't actually willing to pay the extra Â£2.5-5k needed to do it.

The examples I gave  before are real life Joe public business owners. Â£2200(30k earnings) and Â£3300(40k earnings) worse off. These are people who would employee people and wont be able to afford to, due to taxation, Â£10 per hour and 32 hour week, 4 more paid holiday days etc

And to think I was thinking of voting labour this time. Not anymore, its crazy and feel for all those hard working business owners.

As mentioned before I am already seeing clients moving operations abroad and monies not invested in the UK due to uncertainty and high taxation will be another nail in the coffin. I find it very worrying for a UK Plc point of view.

Now wheres that link to apply for an Ireland passport

Click to expand...

Youâ€™ve sort of widened the net a bit the post was simply about the bloke on QT last night, we/you no nothing about him and his circumstances.
Iâ€™ll be the first to admit (as posted on here) Iâ€™m not at all clued up on taxes, corporation incl.
I also gave an honest opinion on the Labour manifesto, so I donâ€™t really get your point in bringing the business owners in to it.
Feel free to look back at the discussions and explanations given by Hobbit and Colchesterfc last night.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™ve sort of widened the net a bit the post was simply about the bloke on QT last night, we/you no nothing about him and his circumstances.
Iâ€™ll be the first to admit (as posted on here) Iâ€™m not at all clued up on taxes, corporation incl.
I also gave an honest opinion on the Labour manifesto, so I donâ€™t really get your point in bringing the business owners in to it.
Feel free to look back at the discussions and explanations given by Hobbit and Colchesterfc last night.
		
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Paul, I'm sure DRW's numbers are correct, he is, I'm sure, an accountant 

It has to be remembered that any increase in costs  (enforced pay increases, taxes, etc etc) will eventually  be added to their consumers costs and possibly make them uncompetitive and needing to shed staff due to lower orders. The breadth of increasing taxation needed to carry out Labour spending plans are colossal and will bust many businesses


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm sure DRW's numbers are correct, he is, I'm sure, an accountant

It has to be remembered that any increase in costs  (enforced pay increases, taxes, etc etc) will eventually  be added to their consumers costs and possibly make them uncompetitive and needing to shed staff due to lower orders. The breadth of increasing taxation needed to carry out Labour spending plans are colossal and will bust many businesses
		
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Agreed Chris, not doubting DRW for one minute, but this was all explained last night, so I donâ€™t get what repeating it does, I also stated my thoughts on their manifesto and the fairy stories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Blinkers off then perhaps you'd could take note of the FT...
" _Labour_ sets out plans to raise taxes by Â£_80bn_ a year â€“ latest news ... The _FT's_ chief political correspondent Jim Pickard  "
		
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That FT headline is true (if the Â£80Bn figure is true - I assume that it is) - but it does not direct the message at a specific audience in the way that the DE headline does.  One is honest - the other is not.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That FT headline is true (if the Â£80Bn figure is true - I assume that it is) - but it does not direct the message at a specific audience in the way that the DE headline does.  One is honest - the other is not.
		
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I would not worry about the Express influencing its readers. Never has the phrase echo chamber been more apt. They are dedicated Conservative / Brexit voters. What they print will have no bearing on the election as those votes are cast already. It's a little like worrying that The Socialist Worker paper may influence people to vote Labour.


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™ve sort of widened the net a bit the post was simply about the *bloke on QT last night, we/you no nothing about him and his circumstances.*
Iâ€™ll be the first to admit (as posted on here) Iâ€™m not at all clued up on taxes, corporation incl.
I also gave an honest opinion on the Labour manifesto, so I donâ€™t really get your point in bringing the business owners in to it.
Feel free to look back at the discussions and explanations given by Hobbit and Colchesterfc last night.
		
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Yet you posted about him and called him an idiot see below, totally uncalled for, especially if you don't know his circumstances  :-



pauldj42 said:



			Rightly so, even *the idiot on QT *last night *failed to realise that those earning 80K pa on Labourâ€™s plans would only amount to Â£4.81 per week,* a sum most of us regardless of wage would happily pay if it meant a better NHS etc.
		
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You don't know his circumstances and your statement about Â£4.81 is a sweeping statement and is only applicable to someone PAYE and someone earning very close to 80k.

The statement highlighted above is a paper headline news kind of statements, as someone who is PAYE and earning near 80k aren't the people who are paying for the funding......

I just feel sorry for the bigger funders of this or people caught up with the massive changers, as I act manly for small/medium sized 'small' business and the effect will be enormous, I feel for them and the people they use/employ, as they cant afford all of it. As a result jobs and businesses will be lost without doubt and even longer working hours for the owners will be the future. The very large business will just work outside the UK and import services/goods to UK, as much as they can and operate much smaller business here.

I also feel for the people who will be put off from setting up a business or will go the black market route due to red tape/costs or even someone not employing someone due to costs/risks(I am an example of that kind of person, as it was part of the reason I didn't employ someone a few years ago, when I really needed to, due to the thought of the additional costs & red tape)

Not ranting, just in case it reads like it, just saying as I see it and how I think it will affect those kind of businesses I act for. All the best


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm sure DRW's numbers are correct, he is, I'm sure, an accountant

It has to be remembered that any increase in costs  (enforced pay increases, taxes, etc etc) will eventually  be added to their consumers costs and possibly make them uncompetitive and needing to shed staff due to lower orders. The breadth of increasing taxation needed to carry out Labour spending plans are colossal and will bust many businesses
		
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I am confused.

Let's say I earn Â£85k.

I pay 40% Income Tax on income over the 40% threshold - and that does not change.  As things stand I pay 40% tax on my income from the threshold up to Â£80k, and 40% on income over Â£80k (up to the next threshold).

With a new 45% threshold at Â£80k my income tax on earnings between the 40% threshold and Â£80k remains the same - my income tax on earnings over Â£80k increases by 5%.

And so if I am earning Â£85K I pay 5% extra tax on Â£5k.  5% x Â£5k = Â£250/year = Â£4.81 a week.

Is that not what we are talking about?  Most earners pay income tax under PAYE and do not have complex income streams.

And so if I earn Â£100k that 4xÂ£5k's at 45% = 4xÂ£4.81=Â£19.24/week extra tax. 

Now I am sorry - but if someone earning Â£100k/year moans about paying less than Â£20/week extra tax - then that says quite a lot about them...


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## jp5 (Nov 22, 2019)

Couldn't put it better myself...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197864802607124480


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would not worry about the Express influencing its readers. Never has the phrase echo chamber been more apt. They are dedicated Conservative / Brexit voters. What they print will have no bearing on the election as those votes are cast already. It's a little like worrying that The Socialist Worker paper may influence people to vote Labour.
		
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It's not just DE buyers who will read the front page of the DE.  Many will see the front page in the newspaper stands/shelfs at their newsagent or filling station.  So let's make sure the headline is in as large text as possible so that it can't be missed by anyone glancing in the direction of a newstand.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 22, 2019)

So after all that ... what would be the amount extra per week at 80k, 70k, 60k 50k 40k 30k 20k ... ignoring pensions, company cars etc as they are life choices.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Yet you posted about him and called him an idiot see below, totally uncalled for, especially if you don't know his circumstances  :-



You don't know his circumstances and your statement about Â£4.81 is a sweeping statement and is only applicable to someone PAYE and someone earning very close to 80k.

The statement highlighted above is a paper headline news kind of statements, as someone who is PAYE and earning near 80k aren't the people who are paying for the funding......

I just feel sorry for the bigger funders of this or people caught up with the massive changers, as I act manly for small/medium sized 'small' business and the effect will be enormous, I feel for them and the people they use/employ, as they cant afford all of it. As a result jobs and businesses will be lost without doubt and even longer working hours for the owners will be the future. The very large business will just work outside the UK and import services/goods to UK, as much as they can and operate much smaller business here.

I also feel for the people who will be put off from setting up a business or will go the black market route due to red tape/costs or even someone not employing someone due to costs/risks(I am an example of that kind of person, as it was part of the reason I didn't employ someone a few years ago, when I really needed to, due to the thought of the additional costs & red tape)

Not ranting, just in case it reads like it, just saying as I see it and how I think it will affect those kind of businesses I act for. All the best

Click to expand...

Did you watch the clip?
He came across as a first class idiot.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, nobody's talking much about the principle of private v nationisation .
I get the impression that some posters on here are owners of businesses, some , if not all, being against the railways nationalisation.
May I ask you this? If you sold your business to me and I ran it and made a profit, you would not expect me to give you some of those profits,would you? On the other hand, if I made a loss, what would you say if I came to you for some more funds to continue running the business.?
Exactly. Go forth and multiply.
But that is what the private train companies do ask of the Government, do they not, when making a loss?
It's wrong . It's having the cheek of the devil.
But why is it considered OK for the Government to pump money into the railways, even under these circumstances of private ownership?
Because they are a vital part of a country's infrastructure and necessary for it to survive as a secure and properly functioning unit, under all circumstances, even in war.
Same applies to utilities like water and power. They are a country's  essential assets without which it couldn't function and keep its citizens safe.
So they should, for that reason alone, be controlled by the Government. And they cannot do that properly if owned privately.
Whether they are run inefficiently seems the main argument of those opposed to nationalisation, but it is a minor consideration compared with those reasons above.
To argue otherwise is a call for the Armed forces and Emergency services, Health service etc to be privatised.
Whether anything is run efficiently or not is down to good strong management, free of political correctness, and that is achievable, by good fair personnel -privately or nationally owned.
		
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i think when all these NI were sold of we were promised, more investment, better service, cometative pricing so fair may even come down choice...

have we had any of that with the railways?

i won't even go into water


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So after all that ... what would be the amount extra per week at 80k, 70k, 60k 50k 40k 30k 20k ... ignoring pensions, company cars etc as they are life choices.
		
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For WHO ? its not that easy.

If you are a PAYE person, the vast majority probably not much difference.

If you are an owner of a small Ltd business or employ someone or a Limited company or a charity employing people or the like, massive changes and additional costs. Like massive, I would probably go on to say possible game changing amounts for those affect, which will lead to less business and less jobs IMHO.

Time will tell.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not just DE buyers who will read the front page of the DE.  Many will see the front page in the newspaper stands/shelfs at their newsagent or filling station.  So let's make sure the headline is in as large text as possible so that it can't be missed by anyone glancing in the direction of a newstand.
		
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Yes, but does anyone take it seriously? It really is a joke newspaper and people that see the headline know this. I don't like the DM but I do acknowledge it does its job very well. The Express however is just nonsense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, I'm sure DRW's numbers are correct, he is, I'm sure, an accountant

It has to be remembered that any increase in costs  (enforced pay increases, taxes, etc etc) will eventually  be added to their consumers costs and possibly make them uncompetitive and needing to shed staff due to lower orders. The breadth of increasing taxation needed to carry out Labour spending plans are colossal and will bust many businesses
		
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Just been listening to small business owners expressing concern over increase in the minimum wage - and saying that it would probably be passed on to the customer or result in job losses.  Hmmm.  I reflect upon one of the main benefits that low paid workers who voted to leave the EU are expecting to come about once we have left and immigration is cut - yup - that's right - increased wages.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, but does anyone take it seriously? It really is a joke newspaper and people that see the headline know this. I don't like the DM but I do acknowledge it does its job very well. The Express however is just nonsense.
		
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It doesn't really matter that *you *know that the DE is nonsense (btw - does that make it's readers stupid to believe what they read?)   What we see at a glance is a huge headline blasting out *Â£80Bn RAID ON YOUR WALLETS*

You might not even notice which newspaper it is - but you notice the headline.  And they stick.


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you watch the clip?
He came across as a first class idiot.
		
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Not sure I have ever called anyone an idiot, as it is not a phrase I like tbh and I don't view anyone as an idiot, everyone is equal in my eyes 

Anyway I am done here , as Â£4.81 you stated is just a nonsense statement, as I have shown in my replies.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			For WHO ? its not that easy.

If you are a PAYE person, the vast majority probably not much difference.

If you are an owner of a small Ltd business or employ someone or a Limited company or a charity employing people or the like, massive changes and additional costs. Like massive, I would probably go on to say possible game changing amounts for those affect, which will lead to less business and less jobs IMHO.

Time will tell.
		
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I agree entirely. I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax , and its not so bad for someone earning Â£85k but for someone on Â£100k?

Also, company owners who've often relied on dividends look like they'll pay tax on all of it  plus be forced to give away shares to workers and somehow cope with a hefty rise in minimum wages - all of which will be passed on to consumers so its likely the increased minimum wage will be gobbled up by a higher cost of living


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So who do you vote for.


Tories and the Buffon that is Boris.
Labour and the Clown that is Jezza.
lib dems and the party that ignores democracy.
Brexit and the Clown that is Farage.
SNP and *Mr Salmond*

Spoilt for choice don't spring to mind.
		
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That would be hard, he stepped down as SNP leader in 2014 and lost his seat as an MP in 2017, so not sure what he's got to do with anything... do try and keep up old boy


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## harpo_72 (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			For WHO ? its not that easy.

If you are a PAYE person, the vast majority probably not much difference.

If you are an owner of a small Ltd business or employ someone or a Limited company or a charity employing people or the like, massive changes and additional costs. Like massive, I would probably go on to say possible game changing amounts for those affect, which will lead to less business and less jobs IMHO.

Time will tell.
		
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We have to keep it high level where we have a multitude of benefits the complexity will just lose the clarity of raw impact.

We are also missing a few points as well. If we have people employed they drive money into the economy. That money feeds these businesses we keep mentioning. But if we have a catastrophic Brexit that money disappears and these businesses disappear and their tax contribution becomes non existent ... so really all of this is hypothetical and we need to make a decision about Brexit.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It doesn't really matter that *you *know that the DE is nonsense (btw - does that make it's readers stupid to believe what they read?)   What we see at a glance is a huge headline blasting out *Â£80Bn RAID ON YOUR WALLETS*

You might not even notice which newspaper it is - but you notice the headline.  And they stick.
		
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If you think that you have a low opinion of Joe Averages IQ. 9th out of the top 10 newspapers, why are you reading it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

DRW said:



			Not sure I have ever called anyone an idiot, as it is not a phrase I like tbh and I don't view anyone as an idiot, everyone is equal in my eyes 

Anyway I am done here , as Â£4.81 you stated is just a nonsense statement, as I have shown in my replies.
		
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Come on make your mind up, in post #1609 itâ€™s a sweeping statement, now itâ€™s a nonsense statement.
How about for clarification you tell us how much extra a paye taxpayer on Â£85,000.00pa will pay under Labours plans?
Iâ€™m sure SILH would also like to see how he got his figures in post #1610 wrong also.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree entirely. I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax , and its not so bad for someone earning Â£85k but for someone on Â£100k?

Also, company owners who've often relied on dividends look like they'll pay tax on all of it  plus be forced to give away shares to workers and somehow cope with a hefty rise in minimum wages - all of which will be passed on to consumers so its likely the increased minimum wage will be gobbled up by a higher cost of living
		
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A lot of SMEâ€™s are reliant on customers needing their services.. if those customers disappear so will those businesses. The minimum wage increases may affect you directly in your out goings but there is no discussion here about the positive impact they could have on the demand for your services. 
Remember running your own business is a risk, success bring great rewards and failure only hurts your debtors .. I knew a plumber who bankrupted himself 7 times and renamed his business the next day. I donâ€™t know if that is legal or not but thatâ€™s what happened.


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## Del_Boy (Nov 22, 2019)

Labourâ€™s spending needs to raise an extra Â£83bn each year for all their manifesto pledges paid for by companies and the top 5% only.  Top 5% generate 50% of all income tax.

Tax receipts for 2018/2019 have been the highest ever with a total of Â£191bn raised from income tax, therefore Â£95bn raised by the top 5% and corp tax raised Â£57bn.  Total raised by those 2 groups Â£152 bn. That are going to have to be some extraordinary changes if this group will generate Â£82bn on top of the Â£152bn they already generate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree entirely. I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax , and its not so bad for someone earning Â£85k but for someone on Â£100k?

Also, company owners who've often relied on dividends look like they'll pay tax on all of it  plus be forced to give away shares to workers and somehow cope with a hefty rise in minimum wages - all of which will be passed on to consumers so its likely the increased minimum wage will be gobbled up by a higher cost of living
		
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I am happy to pay more income tax - and someone on Â£100k paying extra Â£20/week? - come off it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If you think that you have a low opinion of Joe Averages IQ. 9th out of the top 10 newspapers, why are you reading it.
		
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I'm not reading it - I saw the headline...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Del_Boy said:



			Labourâ€™s spending needs to raise an extra Â£83bn each year for all their manifesto pledges paid for by companies and the top 5% only.  Top 5% generate 50% of all income tax.

Tax receipts for 2018/2019 have been the highest ever with a total of Â£191bn raised from income tax, therefore Â£95bn raised by the top 5% and corp tax raised Â£57bn.  Total raised by those 2 groups Â£152 bn. That are going to have to be some extraordinary changes if this group will generate Â£82bn on top of the Â£152bn they already generate
		
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Quite possibly so.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Remember running your own business is a risk, success bring great rewards and failure only hurts your debtors
		
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That's a very sweeping statement. I knew/know many businesses who's owners dont achieve 'great rewards' they just jog along happy to work for themselves and failures hurt the employees, owners , customers as well as debtors who are often taken down too in a domino effect


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am happy to pay more income tax - and someone on Â£100k paying extra Â£20/week? - come off it...
		
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Good for you!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Good for you!
		
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You said:

_I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax_

Well now you know one who would be happy...and I have to say that I find it sad that none of your family, friends or acquaintances would.


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## Wolf (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am happy to pay more income tax - and someone on Â£100k paying extra Â£20/week? - come off it...
		
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You may be happier to pay more income tax but I'm not... 

I run gyms but under self employed contracted to the main company role, essentially they employ my company to better run theirs, I am in no way near the top 5% bracket. However under  the proposals I'm going to be hugely affected by the tax changes that means my family will be hugely affected and things are going to have to be cut down on that will directly impact the happiness of my children. I could if I choose go into direct PAYE with the company that contracts me but their rate of pay would mean a pay cut and impact my family again negatively. 

Admittedly at Moment I'm undergoing a change of career roles but which should hopefully negate all this but if that doesn't come off and I have to remain doing what I do the tax changes are going cause me massive issues and that's from a working class family supposedly meant to be better off under a socialist government.


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

Already about 50% of startup businesses fail with 2/3 years - many small businesses are mature people with redundancy payments or pension sums. more tax will either stop them starting or lead to early failure.

I wonder what DfT's daughter (who I think has her own business) thinks.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You said:

_I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax_

Well now you know one who would be happy...and I have to say that I find it sad that none of your family, friends or acquaintances would.
		
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Quite honestly I dont give, in the words of the traitor Bercow, a flying flamingo, if you find it sad or not. Paying taxes is a duty  - not a desire!


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am happy to pay more income tax - and someone on Â£100k paying extra Â£20/week? - come off it...
		
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I wouldn't  object to paying a bit more if I could see it being spent wisely; unfortunately if Labour has control of the piggy bank that is not going to happen based on their plans.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You may be happier to pay more income tax but I'm not...

I run gyms but under self employed contracted to the main company role, essentially they employ my company to better run theirs, I am in no way near the top 5% bracket. However under  the proposals I'm going to be hugely affected by the tax changes that means my family will be hugely affected and things are going to have to be cut down on that will directly impact the happiness of my children. I could if I choose go into direct PAYE with the company that contracts me but their rate of pay would mean a pay cut and impact my family again negatively.

Admittedly at Moment I'm undergoing a change of career roles but which should hopefully negate all this but if that doesn't come off and I have to remain doing what I do the tax changes are going cause me massive issues and that's from a working class family supposedly meant to be better off under a socialist government.
		
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I am simply saying that whereas others such as yourself wouldn't be happy to pay additional income tax - I - and plenty others that I know - _would _be happy.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			. But if we have a catastrophic Brexit that money disappears and these businesses disappear and their tax contribution becomes non existent ... so really all of this is hypothetical and we need to make a decision about Brexit.
		
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'Catastrophic Brexit'. That term is so overused and sensationalist.  Maybe we will maybe we wont, maybe we will have a Catastrophic remain, or a crash in remain or a cliff edge remain or maybe we wont.   Why would all this money disappear if we leave the EU, we will still have demand for products and services and business will want to provide it, other countries will want to sell into our large economy and we will want to sell into theirs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite honestly I dont give, in the words of the traitor Bercow, a flying flamingo, if you find it sad or not. Paying taxes is a duty  - not a desire!
		
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Indeed it is.  Doesn't stop you being willing to pay more if asked.


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## chrisd (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is.  Doesn't stop you being willing to pay more if asked.
		
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 Oh it does, I paid till it bled at times when I had my business, and it stopped me being able to expand the business at times when I could have taken more staff on or paid better wages to employees .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			'Catastrophic Brexit'. That term is so overused and sensationalist.  Maybe we will maybe we wont, maybe we will have a Catastrophic remain, or a crash in remain or a cliff edge remain or maybe we wont.   Why would all this money disappear if we leave the EU, we will still have demand for products and services and business will want to provide it, other countries will want to sell into our large economy and we will want to sell into theirs.
		
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Let's just have 'Catastophic Corbyn' or a 'Cliff-edge Corbyn' instead...

...based upon all of those forecasts than no-one should believe because the forecasters always get their forecasts wrong.

See @jp5 post #1611


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

I guess the newspapers are getting their calculations wrong as well.

â€œAccording to the most recent figures from the Office for National Statistics, an income of Â£75,300 places an earner in the top 5 per cent.

Under Labour's plan for a 45p rate on earnings over Â£80,000, he would pay an extra Â£4.81 per week if he earned Â£85,000 per yearâ€


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

I think the Labour Manifesto should be renamed 'How to ruin a country in five years'


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's just have 'Catastophic Corbyn' or a 'Cliff-edge Corbyn' instead...

...based upon all of those forecasts than no-one should believe because the forecasters always get their forecasts wrong.

See @jp5 post #1611
		
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I agree many forecasts have been very wrong but I've not seen anyone use 'Catastrophic or Cliff Edge Corbyn'

Simple question:  Do you honestly  think the Labour Manifesto is realistic and affordable?   I will await the Conservative one before commenting on that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree many forecasts have been very wrong but I've not seen anyone use 'Catastrophic or Cliff Edge Corbyn'

Simple question:  Do you honestly  think the Labour Manifesto is realistic and affordable?   I will await the Conservative one before commenting on that.
		
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I've just made them up 

Do I honestly think it realistic or affordable,  I don't know - probably not.  But what is 'affordable' in the days of mega-billions banking bailouts.  What I do know is that this country needs a step change in provision of public services such as is being offered by Labour.  If you don't have much money in the UK these days things are pretty dire, and under the Conservatives a tweak here and big headline programme there just isn't going to work. 

But as I said in an earlier post - I have a feeling that the Labour Party Manifesto is aimed primarily a traditional Labour support in Leave voting constituencies - support that is currently thinking of voting TBP or Tory.  Offer that part of the electorate significant improvements in many of the areas that drove these Labour voters to vote to Leave - and they might stick with Labour.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've just made them up 

Do I honestly think it realistic or affordable,  I don't know - probably not.  But what is 'affordable' in the days of mega-billions banking bailouts.  What I do know is that this country needs a step change in provision of public services such as is being offered by Labour.  If you don't have much money in the UK these days things are pretty dire, and under the Conservatives a tweak here and big headline programme there just isn't going to work.

But as I said in an earlier post - I have a feeling that the Labour Party Manifesto is aimed primarily a traditional Labour support in Leave voting constituencies - support that is currently thinking of voting TBP or Tory.  Offer that part of the electorate significant improvements in many of the areas that drove these Labour voters to vote to Leave - and they might stick with Labour.
		
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Ill tell you whats affordable, its what we can afford and even those bailouts weren't Â£85 Billion+ a year.

So do you think these people are too stupid to not see through these outlandish plans?


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not reading it - I saw the headline...
		
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And your fell for a headline, really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And your fell for a headline, really.
		
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I didn't - I noticed it.

Do you think it honest?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ill tell you whats affordable, its what we can afford and even those bailouts weren't Â£85 Billion+ a year.

So do you think these people are too stupid to not see through these outlandish plans?
		
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What - the Brexit non-plans and economic non-forecasts?

I strongly suspect that all know exactly what they want in respect of public services - and that they feel (or were encouraged to believe) that Leaving the EU will deliver.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I guess the newspapers are getting their calculations wrong as well.

â€œAccording to the most recent figures from the Office for National Statistics, an income of Â£75,300 places an earner in the top 5 per cent.

Under Labour's plan for a 45p rate on earnings over Â£80,000, he would pay an extra Â£4.81 per week if he earned Â£85,000 per yearâ€
		
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All sorts of figures coming out today, Inland revenue puts it slightly higher than the IFS. Only a couple more weeks of claim and counter claim full of information and disinformation.
The people in their puzzle palaces obviously don't realise that well over 90% of those walking down to the polling station have made up their mind.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't - I noticed it.

Do you think it honest?
		
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So you didn't fall for it but your suggesting that others will. Do I think it's honest. No more honest or dishonest than the crock of crap that's coming out of those being interviewed by the media or what some post on social media.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			All sorts of figures coming out today, Inland revenue puts it slightly higher than the IFS. Only a couple more weeks of claim and counter claim full of information and disinformation.
The people in their puzzle palaces obviously don't realise that well over 90% of those walking down to the polling station have made up their mind.
		
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Iâ€™ve got no doubt in that mate, it does get very confusing when people make a simple question difficult.
Thereâ€™s only 2 choices unfortunately and thatâ€™s Labour or tory, yes you have other options, but I genuinely only see them as protest votes.

We really could do with a genuine centre party.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They won't have to push because they know the fixed-term parliament act has another election coming along in 5yrs time - max.
		
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or if the tory's win and things don't go there way we might have another before then


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			or if the tory's win and things don't go there way we might have another before then

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Sadly I reckon weâ€™ll have another GE by summer next year, the only positive is that it may be with 2 different leaders for Labour and tories.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the Labour Manifesto should be renamed 'How to ruin a country in five years'
		
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as apposed to the great job the Conservatives have done in the last 9 years


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## Beezerk (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We really could do with a genuine centre party.
		
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Or a decent Labour leader with a good team around him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Or a decent Labour leader with a good team around him.
		
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They need dragging out top to bottom sadly.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Or a decent Labour leader with a good team around him.
		
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I'd love to see the whole of the present 650 barred from office and a fresh bunch in


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ill tell you whats affordable, its what we can afford and even those bailouts weren't Â£85 Billion+ a year.

So do you think these people are too stupid to not see through these outlandish plans?
		
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The bank bailouts were Â£137bn in total, to which Â£110bn has been repaid.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Tory benfactor... Â£1m donation... resident of the Bahamas....  need i say more
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-tories-handed-1million-20932980


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Tory benfactor... Â£1m donation... resident of the Bahamas....  need i say more
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-tories-handed-1million-20932980

Click to expand...

Some people just have more money than sense


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Some people just have more money than sense
		
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esp if they don't pay any tax in the UK


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			esp if they don't pay any tax in the UK

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Don't know if they do or don't but there should be a rule. Donors should have to be tax payers in the U.K.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You said:

_I've yet to meet anyone who is quite happy to pay more income tax_

Well now you know one who would be happy...and I have to say that I find it sad that none of your family, friends or acquaintances would.
		
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I agree in principle, but there are caveats, I'm sure you'll agree.
When taxes are wasted or spent on skivers, or on way out ideological schemes at the expense of deserving causes ( there are always some of these ), then it is understandable that people paying the tax are upset. 
It doesn't take much to extrapolate that dissatisfaction into "all tax " is undesirable and should be reduced etc.
(And let's also not forget the influence of Robin Hood. Children of the UK have been brought up to hate the tax grabbing Sheriff, and to cheer good old Robin when he snatches the taxes backðŸ˜ðŸ˜)

Seriously,  if you live in a modern civilised society you cannot have it survive as such without taxes. If you get into trouble and dial 999 for help, you are spending money raised by taxes. Only a little of it is your money.
Take the U.S..  The most conservative country in the world ; considers its citizens the most resilient,  free from Government interference etc. However, it always seems to have the best resources for Police, Fire brigade etc.
Even small towns have plenty of police officers ( sheriffs and deputies)
I am willing to bet that taxes in the States are not as low as their ideology would suggest. Indeed, I was informed recently that Pro golfers earning in the States lose about 45% in tax.?
Really, I don't think any  person should object to paying  reasonable taxes for the maintenance of a stable , secure society. It's the Government which has to be honourable enough to spend them  wisely.
And that means having to make judgements when spending the taxes:not only deciding on who needs the money, but also whether they deserve it.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2019)

The union's are Labour's bigger donors ?
they have punch and judy under their control, I remember certain votes being rigged in their favour at conference.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2019)

Oh Joy.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197800849130610689


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The union's are Labour's bigger donors ?
they have punch and judy under their control, I remember certain votes being rigged in their favour at conference.
		
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nope it labour party members... ord people ..not billionair tax exiles


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't know if they do or don't but there should be a rule. Donors should have to be tax payers in the U.K.
		
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i'd tend to agree with you... and def not former Russian Gov ministers


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The bank bailouts were Â£137bn in total, to which Â£110bn has been repaid.
		
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As I said they were not Â£85+ Billion year on year.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As I said they were not Â£85+ Billion year on year.
		
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I know you did. I piggy backed onto your post to get the info out there. It wasn't a criticism or a correction.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			as apposed to the great job the Conservatives have done in the last 9 years

Click to expand...

Thats right, massively reduced the deficit from Gordon Browns over borrowing, slashed unemployment to the lowest levels since the 1970s, created huge numbers of new jobs, reduced interest rates so that mortgages are more affordable,  no boom and bust economy, reduced state spending to more affordable levels, I could go on.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

We've seen some of the manifestos, and we've heard many offerings and criticisms from the politicians. And, naturally, many of us have expressed our concerns, criticisms and satisfaction at what we've heard.

But what do we want?

If I'm honest, I don't care who ends up at Number 10 providing people could get a doctor's appointment same or the day after, as it used to be. That the NHS is properly funded. That social care is properly funded. Pensions at a level similar to the more affluent end of the EU 28's pension levels. I dare say we could all add to that list.

But there's always a but. How should it be funded? I don't like the atmosphere around the us and them that Labour is creating. Its calculated and its creepy. I don't like the naming of certain super-rich individuals, as Corbyn did, in support of the us and them. And I don't support the Tories tax cuts when there's so much not right.

What we see as wrong, costs money to put right. Chasing tax evasion, and closing tax avoidance loop holes won't get close to it. And spending money on re-nationalisation is spending money where it shouldn't be spent - let other people manage those businesses, and make the profits that can be properly taxed. And they carry the risks too. 

But are you willing to fund the difference? And that's the nub of the problem, the funding of it wisely. Without taking too much off big business, and putting jobs at risk as those companies look to maintain what their shareholders expect(quite often your pension fund holders), how much a rise in income tax are you willing to take? How much are you willing to pay to ensure you and yours get a doc's appointment within 24hrs? How much are you willing to pay to ensure you and yours have good social care later in life?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats right, massively reduced the deficit from Gordon Browns over borrowing, slashed unemployment to the lowest levels since the 1970s, created huge numbers of new jobs, reduced interest rates so that mortgages are more affordable,  no boom and bust economy, reduced state spending to more affordable levels, I could go on.
		
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For balance:
Over the same period:
1000% increase in foodbank use.
Rough Sleeping increased by 165%
Homelessness increased by 41%
NHS waiting lists increased by 65%
Police numbers down by 17%
Crime recorded in England and Wales increased by 37%
Local Government funding down by 56%
I could go on.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			That would be hard, he stepped down as SNP leader in 2014 and lost his seat as an MP in 2017, so not sure what he's got to do with anything... do try and keep up old boy

Click to expand...

In regards the accusations re Mr Salmond, i do hope i am wrong and he is innocent. However, i have a nasty Tashyboy itch that won't go away. It is regards to the amount of people involved and how much did people within the SNP allegedly know.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats right, massively reduced the deficit from Gordon Browns over borrowing, slashed unemployment to the lowest levels since the 1970s, created huge numbers of new jobs, reduced interest rates so that mortgages are more affordable,  no boom and bust economy, reduced state spending to more affordable levels, I could go on.
		
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you hav'nt reduced the def, we owe more now than when the tory's took over, yes you have created lots of low paying 0 hours contact jobs and fiddleled the Unemployment figures.
oh and you forgot Tax cuts to the rich, ecomomic uncertancy to placate right wing of the tory part and hundreds of thousand having to us food banks and in poverty... i could go on...


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2019)

Well am half way through an RBL treasurers course, in essence a three year course condensed into 2 days. When i pass tomorrow i will check Labours figures.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			In regards the accusations re Mr Salmond, i do hope i am wrong and he is innocent. However, i have a nasty Tashyboy itch that won't go away. It is regards to the amount of people involved and how much did people within the SNP allegedly know.
		
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i don;t think he is innocent, ive had dealing with him and he is a narcissist ego maniac.. i hope they throw the book at him.
as i said he isn't leader, hasn't been in 5 years and is not an MP. this acucastions are against AS and not sure how you think this has and lasting effect on the SNP. its a abuse of power, it goes on  not just in this instance,they tried to ivestgate and he took them to court and won.. its not right, personally i think  they are well shot of him Nicola is far better 

if you think this will have any influence on the election you are even thicker than i thought


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Well am half way through an RBL treasurers course, in essence a three year course condensed into 2 days. When i pass tomorrow i will check Labours figures.
		
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tashy i don't think John Macdonald has anything to worry about


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			tashy i don't think John Macdonald has anything to worry about

Click to expand...

Because he's on the same course


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Because he's on the same course 

Click to expand...

Clown, Am sat with Diane Abacus


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Because he's on the same course 

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no tash is in the remedial group with Sajid Javid


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2019)

patricks148 said:



*you hav'nt reduced the def, we owe more now than when the tory's took over,* yes you have created lots of low paying 0 hours contact jobs and fiddleled the Unemployment figures.
oh and you forgot Tax cuts to the rich, ecomomic uncertancy to placate right wing of the tory part and hundreds of thousand having to us food banks and in poverty... i could go on...
		
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While it might be true that SR hasn't reduced the deficit personally, the Conservatives have reduced the deficit from Â£103 billion in 2010 to Â£1.9 billion at the end of 2018. At the end of March 2019 the budget deficit was a surplus of Â£19 billion so you are incorrect. We do owe more now than when the Tories took over (Â£1.8 trillion compared to Â£1 trillion in 2010) but it is absolutely untrue that the deficit hasn't been reduced.

EDIT - source for the figures.....

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_deficit_analysis


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2019)

Leaders debate from Sheffield was interesting.
It went off in a completely different direction than I had envisaged.

Johnson and Get Brexit Done seemed to have very little support from the audience.
Nicola got a fair hearing and quite a decent bit of applause.
Swinson was as bad as Johnson.
Corbyn seemed to have quite a bit of support.

ps  Audience were brilliant...â€¦..stars of the show.
Bruce was OK,  she checked Johnson blustering about nothing. He seems clueless outside of his controlled London bubble.


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## Beezerk (Nov 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leaders debate from Sheffield was interesting.
It went off in a completely different direction than I had envisaged.

Johnson and Get Brexit Done seemed to have very little support from the audience.
Nicola got a fair hearing and quite a decent bit of applause.
Swinson was as bad as Johnson.
Corbyn seemed to have quite a bit of support.
		
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Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
		
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See above ps.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
		
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Should have stuck with it, he started well but started too unwind after the Brexit questions and the Scottish surge. Did he mean he would remain neutral or the Labour Party would be neutral in any build up to a 2nd ref.
Didn't listen to the SNP as I had the excuse of having to prepare tea.
Swinson took a bit of a battering especially from those who said they were LibDems.
Johnson done better than I thought he would but never going to be great as he has the inability to listen.
Bruce managed this better than she does QT.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For balance:
Over the same period:
1000% increase in foodbank use.
Rough Sleeping increased by 165%
Homelessness increased by 41%
NHS waiting lists increased by 65%
Police numbers down by 17%
Crime recorded in England and Wales increased by 37%
Local Government funding down by 56%
I could go on.
		
Click to expand...

Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves.  I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many.  I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it.  Some people also have mental health issues  and it can be  very difficult to get them to change the way they live.  There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities.  Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough?   Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing.  Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened.  The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment.  One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases.  Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen,  its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up.  All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything.  There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Government policy or are there more complex reasons.  I suspect there are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of  OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them.  The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves.  I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many.  I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it.  Some people also have mental health issues  and it can be  very difficult to get them to change the way they live.  There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities.  Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough?   Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing.  Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened.  The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment.  One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases.  Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen,  its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up.  All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything.  There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Gover ment policy or are there more complex reasons.  I suspect thete are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of  OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them.  The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.
		
Click to expand...

Whoâ€™s reality? The one above were you donâ€™t accept the facts.
By all means praise the positive, but take the blinkers off when thereâ€™s negatives.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/748113064537497600Looks like poor old Hugh is still quite angry.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Foodbanks
I dont buy into the foodbank argument. I agree they do a good and important job but to blame their existence on the Conservative government is wrong. If at ANY TIME in the history of this country foodbanks were created they would have been used to capacity, the poor and needy have ALWAYS been with us and always will.

Rough sleeping
I am not convinced rough sleeping is generally related to government policies. From my observations many of these people have drink/drug issues and some live this way by choice. Some are also not really sleeping rough but decide to live this way to fund themselves.  I am not saying a number are not genuine but I question how many.  I know my local authority say they offer accomodation to everyone sleeping rough but many prefer it.  Some people also have mental health issues  and it can be  very difficult to get them to change the way they live.  There are also a number of immigrants living on the streets especially in London and large Cities.  Its not as simplistic as just throwing out percentages.

Homelessness.
By this I assume you are relating to people who had homes but are now sleeping rough?   Do you have information why this may be true, I cant believe its due to interest rates or lack of work or even lack of available housing.  Please clarify.

NHS Waiting Times.
Now I agree with this one and I am not clear why this has happened.  The Government have continued to fund the NHS and increased spending, OK the NHS can always spend more money but what has caused this difference in waiting times to see a GP or to get a hospital appointment.  One change that seemed to make a difference was when Gordon Brown gave Doctors new contracts that allowed them to work shorter hours and no weekends for big salary increases.  Another factor (and this won't go down well with many) is the big increase in population, driven by mass immigration over a short period of time with insignificant increases in medical services, there is also the enevatable increase in the number of older people which was always going to happen,  its created the perfect storm where medical services can't keep up.  All politicians have a share of responsibility for this happening.

Police Numbers.
I guess this is again a symptom of the necessary austerity that was needed to get us out of the financial cacky we found ourselves in. Now's probably the time to increase numbers again.

Crime in England and Wales.
You say crime recorded but what exactly does that mean. Is it an increase in convictions or police records of reports which could mean anything.  There is definitely an increase in things like knife crime but do you have a theory this is only to do with the Government policy or are there more complex reasons.  I suspect there are.

Local Government Funding
This is partially due to cutbacks in government support to local authorities, again partially due to necessary austerity. Many local governments were wasting huge amounts of  OUR money, paying inflated salaries for people doing silly jobs that no one benefited from other than those doing them.  The other massive costs is the amount they have to pay to fund their gold plated pension schemes which most people in private industry can only dream of, some of these schemes have needed to be cut back and the employees having to fund more themselves.

You could of course go on but should grasp the reality of it.
		
Click to expand...

Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a Â£19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?


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## drdel (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a Â£19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?
		
Click to expand...


Because the debt had been built up and the interest was crippling plus the Bank lending worldwide.... 

The cost of overspending had to be paid.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Watched the first question for Corbyn and switched straight off. Looked loaded in favour of Labour from the start, that first question certainly seemed that anyway. Was it like that throughout?
		
Click to expand...

Watched all of it.

Corbyn; still think he's a great orator and could, probably, sell sand to the Arabs. Some minor deflections but nothing you could really say were game changers. Performance 8/10

Sturgeon; spent too much time denigrating the opposition. Not as much substance as she usually gives. Probably one of her worst performances. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?

Swinson; oh dear. Not great at all. Lots of nothing. Came across as floundering in water too deep for her. Is it inexperience, or is she just poor. Performance 3/10

Johnson; came on to a mixed reception, and certainly got some brick bats throughout. Still not good at so obviously avoiding difficult questions. Left to better applause. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Foodbanks

I did a lot of charity work every month with food banks over a period of several years. Why has the number increased? The main reason is how benefits are now paid. How long Universal Credit takes to be processed. And, bizarrely, the Benefits Offices around the country hand the phone number of the food banks, saying you need to approach them whilst we process your Universal Credit application.

Rough sleeping

Again, through charity work its something we came across. And, again, the increase is due to the changes in how, and how much, housing benefits is paid. And its almost that simple. You can also add in age discrimination on the young - imagine being told by the Benefits Office you need to go and live with your parents, especially if you'd left an abusive home. Taking out those who chose it, or due to other issues don't feel able to access whats available, as you say, there is a significant increase in homelessness, and its down to the reduction in Housing Benefits and the narrowing of the criteria you must pass to get them.

The NHS

Thats one I could give you oodles of detail. Its complex, and many faceted. It would take numerous paragraphs to go into the detail. Short version; lack of money, people living longer whilst still ill - its not a nice subject, and a difficult one to approach without upsetting someone. There are some conditions that can't be cured but the NHS can keep them alive a lot longer, during which time they are still out-patients. Note, I'm not arguing euthanasia, just saying it as it is. And in some areas, rank poor management. In some cases that poor management is spineless managers who are forced to chase KPI's at the expense of good patient outcomes. And in some cases, a great British failing - good doctors/nurses/admin staff don't always make good managers, and lack of funds to train them further is scarce.

Police and crime

Population increases, and crime will increase proportionally. Reduce the number of Police, and the person that committed one crime is still on the streets to commit a second and third crime, and crime increases further. Criminals are emboldened due to the lack of policing.

Austerity was needed. The country had horrendous debts that it was on the verge of not being able to service. Cuts were needed. IMO, they went too deep and for too long. Why has the Tories cut taxes to grow the economy and, for example, seen a Â£19bn surplus when there are the issues listed above? Why cut taxes when the NHS was going into meltdown, and the old have been going without social care?
		
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Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues.   He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel.  I heard just after he had killed himself.  Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could have been tapered off a bit earlier but some people are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Watched all of it.

Corbyn; still think he's a great orator and could, probably, sell sand to the Arabs. Some minor deflections but nothing you could really say were game changers. Performance 8/10

Sturgeon; spent too much time denigrating the opposition. Not as much substance as she usually gives. Probably one of her worst performances. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?

Swinson; oh dear. Not great at all. Lots of nothing. Came across as floundering in water too deep for her. Is it inexperience, or is she just poor. Performance 3/10

Johnson; came on to a mixed reception, and certainly got some brick bats throughout. Still not good at so obviously avoiding difficult questions. Left to better applause. Performance 7/10, or was it a 6?
		
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looks like the after show was better


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1197994730933673984


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whoâ€™s reality? The one above were you donâ€™t accept the facts.
By all means praise the positive, but take the blinkers off when thereâ€™s negatives.
		
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Its also easy for me to ask you to take the blinkers off.  Poor way to debate though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues.   He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel.  I heard just after he had killed himself.  Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could jave been tapered off a bit earlier but some. People are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.
		
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Iâ€™m confused in that you say they are complex issues, which I agree with, and state people are suggesting austerity was completely unnecessary, not on here they havenâ€™t.

Yet in post #1672 you are putting all the responsibility on Gordon Brownâ€™s over borrowing, even though it was the 2008 global recession that affected everyone and something had to be done.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good points and I did say these issues are complex and don't have simple solutions.

I take your view on foodbanks and benefits but i still stand by my view that its too simplistic for someone to suggest they exist only because of the Conservatives. I am sure they wont go away if there is a change of government.

Again I accept your input but I still think rough sleeping does not have a single cause, its much more complex. There was recently a man living in a bus shelter near me, local people were helping him with food and bedding etc. He had been offered a flat by the council a few times but wouldn't accept it, he had mental health issues.   He was taken from the bus shelter last winter and putt in a hostel.  I heard just after he had killed himself.  Its just so more complex than blaming universal credit , although I think they have improved the waiting time perid for it now.

Regarding austerity, yes, maybe it could have been tapered off a bit earlier but some people are suggesting it was completely unnecessary which I must disagree with.
		
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We'd be splitting hairs but, in some cases, those hairs are more to do with the lack of detail either of us posted and the fact we're not experts in those areas.

Food banks; there's some very interesting stats on when they started, how many and the growth thereof. I'd argue that the, well not so much argue as more point to the fact that the numbers in the UK have risen quicker and higher than any other western country, and have risen under a Tory govt. Even (rich) Germany has them in the hundreds.

Homelessness; I did say the increase was because of... There will, as you say, always be a core of rough sleepers who's issues have little to do with the state of the economy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its also easy for me to ask you to take the blinkers off.  Poor way to debate though.
		
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My blinkers are well and truly off, in all honesty I found your comments insulting, especially your attitude towards foodbanks and the homeless, so the long insulting rant for which Iâ€™d of received a ban, I deleted and thankfully Hobbit answered it far better than I ever could.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m confused in that you say they are complex issues, which I agree with, and state people are suggesting austerity was completely unnecessary, not on here they havenâ€™t.

Yet in post #1672 you are putting all the responsibility on Gordon Brownâ€™s over borrowing, even though it was the 2008 global recession that affected everyone and something had to be done.
		
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The global crash was triggered by the collapse of the sub-prime mortgage market in the USA. Gordon Brown's failing was overextending, believing the boom would go on longer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd ask the question would anyone take out a huge loan on the back of potential earnings in a volatile jobs market. He was a bit reckless.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The global crash was triggered by the collapse of the sub-prime mortgage market in the USA. Gordon Brown's failing was overextending, believing the boom would go on longer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd ask the question would anyone take out a huge loan on the back of potential earnings in a volatile jobs market. He was a bit reckless.
		
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Iâ€™ve no doubt Brown and the Labour Party have to bare a major chunk of the responsibility as it was on their watch.
But itâ€™s easy to look back at the facts and see it was not exactly as the tories or the media portrayed it at the time, just think of the â€œnoteâ€ and â€œgoldâ€ stories that still persist to date.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt Brown and the Labour Party have to bare a major chunk of the responsibility as it was on their watch.
But itâ€™s easy to look back at the facts and see it was not exactly as the tories or the media portrayed it at the time, just think of the â€œnoteâ€ and â€œgoldâ€ stories that still persist to date.
		
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I don't really apportion a huge amount of blame to Labour, just some. They were a victim of that perfect storm... maybe shouldn't have sold the life belts though.

The 'note' is a non-story really but it makes good soundbite politics. The 'gold' is something different though. You could borrow against the gold price, but you can't now its been sold. And you can't borrow against bonds quite so easily. Selling all the gold was stupid in the extreme. There was enough evidence from the countries around the world that showed the value of having a gold reserve... Brown was stupid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't really apportion a huge amount of blame to Labour, just some. They were a victim of that perfect storm... maybe shouldn't have sold the life belts though.

The 'note' is a non-story really but it makes good soundbite politics. The 'gold' is something different though. You could borrow against the gold price, but you can't now its been sold. And you can't borrow against bonds quite so easily. Selling all the gold was stupid in the extreme. There was enough evidence from the countries around the world that showed the value of having a gold reserve... Brown was stupid.
		
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Again though Bri, with a little research you will find varying â€œexpertsâ€ saying Brown was right or wrong on the gold.
Even today I believe we are still receiving interest on the bonds and at the time a few European countries were reducing their gold reserves, vast amounts of gold sat in vaults earning nothing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though Bri, with a little research you will find varying â€œexpertsâ€ saying Brown was right or wrong on the gold.
Even today I believe we are still receiving interest on the bonds and at the time a few European countries were reducing their gold reserves, vast amounts of gold sat in vaults earning nothing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp

Click to expand...

That article does say we are still well down, just not as bad as some say.

There are two elements to a bond, the value and the interest. Short term bonds, which he bought, donâ€™t give the best return but are less risky in terms of tie in.

However, todayâ€™s short term bond might be bought for Â£100. You gain 5% in interest taking it to Â£105. Do you have Â£5 to spend? Yes, but when the bond matures in 6 months whatâ€™s the market rate to buy the next bond? Â£105? But how do you buy the next bond if youâ€™ve spent the Â£5?

Truthfully, thatâ€™s simplistic but thereâ€™s an element of reality in there too. And I guess thatâ€™s where part of the â€œstill downâ€ comes from. Another way to confirm that is to look at how the value of gold has risen.

As to the ability to borrow against the gold he retained... have a look at the value of the gold after he flooded the market... itâ€™s in the article.

He made a questionable short term gain, which he spent, for a significant long term loss.

And as my first sentence says, the article you used in Brownâ€™s defence still says he made a loss.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2019)

I read this morning that the conservatives have created a fake labour website to spread more disinformation.... can they get any lower ?


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## patricks148 (Nov 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I read this morning that the conservatives have created a fake labour website to spread more disinformation.... can they get any lower ?
		
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what would you expect from a party who defence to everything is lies


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## Wolf (Nov 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I read this morning that the conservatives have created a fake labour website to spread more disinformation.... can they get any lower ?
		
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labourmanifesto.co.uk this'll be the one you mean, a pathetic sad attempt at one up manship from them.


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2019)

Wolf said:



			labourmanifesto.co.uk this'll be the one you mean, a pathetic sad attempt at one up manship from them.
		
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Is that the one that says, "a website by the Conservative Party"


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## Wolf (Nov 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Is that the one that says, "a website by the Conservative Party"
		
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Indeed it is right under picture of Corbyn. 

However they're not the only ones at it, because if you go to the website the www.torymanifesto.com someone has done the same thing with a picture of Boris and slating the tory manifesto even though that hasn't been released yet ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸

This is literally the most immature and childish GE ever known, sadly social media and the Internet age is making it all the more easier for idiots to take away from the actual political stand points and make it nothing more than a playground debate.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 23, 2019)

As a golfer I always thought I should vote for the greens


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## Old Skier (Nov 23, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Indeed it is right under picture of Corbyn.

However they're not the only ones at it, because if you go to the website the www.torymanifesto.com someone has done the same thing with a picture of Boris and slating the tory manifesto even though that hasn't been released yet ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸

This is literally the most immature and childish GE ever known, sadly social media and the Internet age is making it all the more easier for idiots to take away from the actual political stand points and make it nothing more than a playground debate.
		
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I wonder how much of it is Party activists who initially chuck it up without prior knowledge. Question to ask the candidates if I ever see one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder how much of it is Party activists who initially chuck it up without prior knowledge. Question to ask the candidates if I ever see one.
		
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Johnson was asked about it last night, but unfortunately blamed brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			As a golfer I always thought I should vote for the greens
		
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They are, by a fair way, the most trendy party.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Img419.jpg
Looks like big Broon cannae spell Kirkcaldy


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## Wolf (Nov 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder how much of it is Party activists who initially chuck it up without prior knowledge. Question to ask the candidates if I ever see one.
		
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If you do see one and get to ask the question I'd be interested in hearing the reply. Whoever has set them up it does have an impact of how some less clued up people on politics will vote. I'm seeing on my own social media feeds the plebs that are buying into both the misinformation sites and sharing them as ammo as to why not to vote for certain parties. Some people are more interested in propoganda than actually reading the manifestos and making their own minds up.


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## User62651 (Nov 23, 2019)

Corbyn's neutrality on Brexit by putting it back to the people - cant decide if that's an effective stance or not. In my mind Brexit was never really along party lines back in 2016, so why should it be now? Boris has clearly been advised to push this as a weakness of leadership on Corbyn's behalf but I dont htink that works other than with diehard Tories, to the floating voters in the middle that could equally be a strength - seems Corbyn has seen the parliamentary deadlock, listened to public opinion on Brexit and doesn't want to alienate leavers or remainers who could vote Labour, not an unwise move tactically. In contrast Johnson has aliented all Tory remainers, that's not to say they wont still vote Conservative, but his whole premiership is built on leave and therefore he can never truly show impartiality or listen to reason on the matter or change his position. One leader is in the middle, other one is hard to one side - who's position is stronger?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

Found the money we need to fund the Labour manifesto 






Think all these people can stump it up .. phew thought we had financial issues but we donâ€™t ðŸ‘ðŸ˜Ž


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			My blinkers are well and truly off, in all honesty I found your comments insulting, especially your attitude towards foodbanks and the homeless, so the long insulting rant for which Iâ€™d of received a ban, I deleted and thankfully Hobbit answered it far better than I ever could.
		
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No there not. I put it to you that you are completely blinkered when it comes to anyone criticising Labour policy. You can't even debate it without becoming personal even though you have stated you won't do this over and over on this site.  I won't get drawn into a mud slinging fight with you just because I have a differing view.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

Corbyn may indeed stay neutral in a second referendum if he gets in power but how many of his cabinet would. I cant see the likes of Starmer, Abbott and Thornbury being so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No there not. I put it to you that you are completely blinkered when it comes to anyone criticising Labour policy. You can't even debate it without becoming personal even though you have stated you won't do this over and over on this site.  I won't get drawn into a mud slinging fight with you just because I have a differing view.
		
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Try reading all my posts rather than just the ones that suit, Iâ€™ve openly criticised the Party and Leadership and tried at times to present both sides of an argument.
You are completely one sided and have not once criticised the tories whilst constantly defending the liar-in-chief.


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## IanM (Nov 23, 2019)

Given Corbynâ€™s record on attendance at memorials for murderers and voting record against uk interests, he isnâ€™t fit to be Prime Minister.   I wonâ€™t even start on his duff economics and antisemitism.

Hopefully, Labour will lose heavily and he and his nasty chums will be booted out of the Party.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			Given Corbynâ€™s record on attendance at memorials for murderers and voting record against uk interests, he isnâ€™t fit to be Prime Minister.   I wonâ€™t even start on his duff economics and antisemitism.

Hopefully, Labour will lose heavily and he and his nasty chums will be booted out of the Party.
		
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Hopefully Boris will as well as he has some nasty chums. Plus he has no economic policy and will sell off the nhs.

Paving the way for the greens, Lib Demâ€™s and snp ... cool ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Try reading all my posts rather than just the ones that suit, Iâ€™ve openly criticised the Party and Leadership and tried at times to present both sides of an argument.
You are completely one sided and have not once criticised the tories whilst constantly defending the liar-in-chief.
		
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Oh the irony.  I accept you are Labour blinkered and I accept I see little to commend Corbyn and his sidekicks but what you need to do is refrain from getting personal when someone disagrees with you.  Look at the way people like Hobbit debate, they dont start insulting different opinions unless provoked first.

You posted a list of things that you suggested the Conservatives were responsible for. Thats OK as you are quite entitled to those opinions but when I make a counter argument you start getting personal and suggest you had to delete your post before you got an infraction.     Just try and keep to the issues and accept people will have different views.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh the irony.  I accept you are Labour blinkered and I accept I see little to commend Corbyn and his sidekicks but what you need to do is refrain from getting personal when someone disagrees with you.  Look at the way people like Hobbit debate, they dont start insulting different opinions unless provoked first.
		
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Ignored. Otherwise mods will be on again and itâ€™s never you. Thanks for the reply.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Ignored. Otherwise mods will be on again and itâ€™s never you. Thanks for the reply.
		
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Ive added a bit more to my reply.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Corbyn's neutrality on Brexit by putting it back to the people - cant decide if that's an effective stance or not. In my mind Brexit was never really along party lines back in 2016, so why should it be now? Boris has clearly been advised to push this as a weakness of leadership on Corbyn's behalf but I dont htink that works other than with diehard Tories, to the floating voters in the middle that could equally be a strength - seems Corbyn has seen the parliamentary deadlock, listened to public opinion on Brexit and doesn't want to alienate leavers or remainers who could vote Labour, not an unwise move tactically. In contrast Johnson has aliented all Tory remainers, that's not to say they wont still vote Conservative, but his whole premiership is built on leave and therefore he can never truly show impartiality or listen to reason on the matter or change his position. One leader is in the middle, other one is hard to one side - who's position is stronger?
		
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When Corbyn first said last night that he'd stay neutral I thought fair enough.  But should he? What should he do if he wins the election and the deal he comes back from Brussels with is an absolute pile of poo? He has plenty of decent sources for advice that the man in the street doesn't have access to, and if they tell him its a no-go I want him to tell everyone that the advice he has received is x/y/z and that he feels its not a good deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			When Corbyn first said last night that he'd stay neutral I thought fair enough.  But should he? What should he do if he wins the election and the deal he comes back from Brussels with is an absolute pile of poo? He has plenty of decent sources for advice that the man in the street doesn't have access to, and if they tell him its a no-go I want him to tell everyone that the advice he has received is x/y/z and that he feels its not a good deal.
		
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I get that, it also bothers me, Iâ€™d like a leader that shows leadership. 
Also him stating 6 months to get it over and done, what if it needs 7 months or 12 months to get the deal heâ€™d like, is he going to accept whatever the EU say to keep his word? That was one of my issues with boris and his 31st Oct.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get that, it also bothers me, Iâ€™d like a leader that shows leadership.
Also him stating 6 months to get it over and done, what if it needs 7 months or 12 months to get the deal heâ€™d like, is he going to accept whatever the EU say to keep his word? That was one of my issues with boris and his 31st Oct.
		
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This is partly why I think it will be an off the shelf deal with minor mods and a negotiation on cost. 6 months is too short for a total re-cut and referendum.
I am not averse to his proposal but I donâ€™t think it will be better than remaining. But time will tell.


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## Beezerk (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get that, it also bothers me, Iâ€™d like a leader that shows leadership.
Also him stating 6 months to get it over and done, what if it needs 7 months or 12 months to get the deal heâ€™d like, is he going to accept whatever the EU say to keep his word? That was one of my issues with boris and his 31st Oct.
		
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Would he get accused of lying if it went past his 6 month deadline?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			This is partly why I think it will be an off the shelf deal with minor mods and a negotiation on cost. 6 months is too short for a total re-cut and referendum.
I am not averse to his proposal but I donâ€™t think it will be better than remaining. But time will tell.
		
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The way jezza the red has been talking, all the negotiating has already been done.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The way jezza the red has been talking, all the negotiating has already been done.
		
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May be it has ... but time will tell.
Hope he nails Murdoch and his 20billion though ðŸ˜ŽðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The way jezza the red has been talking, all the negotiating has already been done.
		
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It probably has. He's good a going behind the back of the govt of the day and having unofficial dialogue with organisations that hate the UK...


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## Beezerk (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The way jezza the red has been talking, all the negotiating has already been done.
		
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With a bit of luck it won't come to Jezza having anything to do with Brexit.


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## drdel (Nov 23, 2019)

How can a 'Leader' be credible if there is no direction in which he's leading his Party?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Would he get accused of lying if it went past his 6 month deadline? 

Click to expand...

Absolutely, mind you, he likes to get excuses in early.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			How can a 'Leader' be credible i*f there is no direction in which he's leading his Party?*

Click to expand...

I'd argue that as much as people may dislike where the main parties are going depending on their political outlook, they paths they are taking is pretty explicit for all to see.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue that as much as people may dislike where the main parties are going depending on their political outlook, they paths they are taking is pretty explicit for all to see.
		
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I suspect that behind the scenes Corbyn is at odds with other senior cabinet members and has decided that saying he's neutral is better that a full blown split. It will be interesting if others in the party also stay neutral, if they get the chance.


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## Beezerk (Nov 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I suspect that behind the scenes Corbyn is at odds with other senior cabinet members and has decided that saying he's neutral is better that a full blown split. It will be interesting if others in the party also stay neutral, if they get the chance.
		
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Nah, he's got no where else to go.
Tory's are leave, Lib Dem's have hijacked remain so Labour have been forced to take the middle ground. Quite sad really, they're just playing the numbers game, nothing else.


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## IanM (Nov 23, 2019)

Lol... random member of public in BBC audience who got to ask a question is a Labour Party Communications staffer.... 

...what are the chances of that?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 23, 2019)

I am amazed that the fact the 2 major parties are split on Brexit is news to anyone. As if they were not we would have been out about 2 years ago.  The ironymeter is exploding when conservative voters implying that the fact the Labour party are not united on Brexit is a flaw.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am amazed that the fact the 2 major parties are split on Brexit is news to anyone. As if they were not we would have been out about 2 years ago.  The ironymeter is exploding when conservative voters saying that the fact the Labour party are not united on Brexit is a flaw.
		
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Itâ€™s like Johnson whining about it taking 3 years and then blaming  the HoC for it not being sorted yet! He forgets to mention it was his Party who had total control for 2 years whilst TM negotiated, then him and his cronies failed to back her deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			Lol... random member of public in BBC audience who got to ask a question is a Labour Party Communications staffer....

...what are the chances of that?
		
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Probably the same as this guy, Ryan Jacobsz is a Tory Councillor and writer for Conservative Home. Has been on qt 7 times and has asked 4 questions, including last night.


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## patricks148 (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably the same as this guy, Ryan Jacobsz is a Tory Councillor and writer for Conservative Home. Has been on qt 7 times and has asked 4 questions, including last night.
View attachment 28618

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as harry hill used to say.... "what are the chances of the happening"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			as harry hill used to say.... "what are the chances of the happening"

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Funnily enough mate, there were plenty of â€œLabour Plantâ€ accusations last night from brexit and tory supporters, but no mention of the bloke above who questioned Corbyn who is proven.
And yesterday we had this:
From Guardian Politics blog:

"The [BBC] Question Time audience is selected by the audience manager Alison Fuller Pedley. She is part of the British Patriotic Front Facebook group. She also promotes 'Britain First' and the EDL online...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 23, 2019)

Like this ?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198319140290879504


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Like this ?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198319140290879504

Click to expand...

So it proves both parties are at it and the BBC need to address the issue.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 23, 2019)

Apparently the lady in red who gave Swinson a grilling is a Labour activist, Can't find the tweet but will post if I can.
I'm not going to bother watching these anymore.
only going to watch the AN 1:1 interviews/ interrogations


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am amazed that the fact the 2 major parties are split on Brexit is news to anyone. As if they were not we would have been out about 2 years ago.  The ironymeter is exploding when conservative voters implying that the fact the Labour party are not united on Brexit is a flaw.
		
Click to expand...

Thats not the issue, the issue is that Labour's leader either isn't allowed to show  his colours or is frightened to do so. Its cringeworthy.


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## chrisd (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Apparently the lady in red who gave Swinson a grilling is a Labour activist, Can't find the tweet but will post if I can.
I'm not going to bother watching these anymore.
only going to watch the AN 1:1 interviews/ interrogations
		
Click to expand...

It certainly sounded like a passionate party follower


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## Gopher (Nov 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I read this morning that the conservatives have created a fake labour website to spread more disinformation.... can they get any lower ?
		
Click to expand...

Probably not as low as Corbyn who has supported terrorist organisations Hamas, Hezbolla and Sinn Fein.

That's about as low as you can get.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Apparently the lady in red who gave Swinson a grilling is a Labour activist, Can't find the tweet but will post if I can.
I'm not going to bother watching these anymore.
only going to watch the AN 1:1 interviews/ interrogations
		
Click to expand...

This one? Sheâ€™s Kate Rutter an actress who is was in I, Daniel Blake.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 23, 2019)

the party that's just can't stop giving :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198342057921798145


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## 2blue (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Like this ?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198319140290879504

Click to expand...

WOW!!!!....   how are politically active people getting involved in political programs....  you couldn't make it up.

Was really pleased to see how calmly, strongly-Leeds-accented, Colin Burgon's lad....  saw-off the Â£80,000 earning, Tory gob-s..t
 We certainly saw the circus clown there....  hahaha.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			the party that's just can't stop giving :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198342057921798145

Click to expand...

Good effort mate, but it is in The Manifesto published Thursday and rightly received criticism as there are no figures or time scale attached.
Iâ€™d suggest the Â£58 Billion has been plucked out of the Â£1.2trillion tory estimate

â€œPeople work hard for most of their lives and deserve a decent retirement free of financial stress and insecurity.

Under the Tories, 400,000 pensioners have been pushed into poverty and a generation of women born in the 1950s have had their pension age changed without fair notification.

This betrayal left millions of women with no time to make alternative plans â€“ with sometimes devastating personal consequences.

Labour recognises this injustice, and will work with these women to design a system of recompense for the losses and insecurity they have suffered.â€


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## Gopher (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			â€œPeople work hard for most of their lives and deserve a decent retirement free of financial stress and insecurity.
		
Click to expand...

People also work hard for most of their lives and buy property which they own and think their kids can inherit when they die.

This will end with Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ax-cut-john-mcdonnell-threshold-a8981991.html


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## spongebob59 (Nov 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198340650871218184


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Gopher said:



			People also work hard for most of their lives and buy property which they own and think their kids can inherit when they die.

This will end with Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ax-cut-john-mcdonnell-threshold-a8981991.html

Click to expand...

Letâ€™s do the obvious one, that article is from July and is in the Manifesto and even the link says reduce the tax, not get rid.

Do I agree with him absolutely not, but very few â€œnormalâ€ people will ever be in the position to worry about it.

Do you think itâ€™s ok for billionaires like the current Duke of Westminster who in 2016 inherited over Â£8billion to pay NO inheritance tax?

Also under current rules me or you or any homeowner in their own home on their own get taken in to care that their estate would be used to pay for that care?

It really isnâ€™t as simple as you make out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198340650871218184

Click to expand...

Was the first reply insufficient?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

CCC


Gopher said:



			People also work hard for most of their lives and buy property which they own and think their kids can inherit when they die.

This will end with Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ax-cut-john-mcdonnell-threshold-a8981991.html

Click to expand...

Yeah who owns that paper ? 
Some Russian who needs to pay UK tax!!!! 

Dismissed .. written by those who want to keep the people making them money. Disgusting.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

Why is Corbyn wearing that tatty scarf?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

Owned by an ex Russian KGB man - you could not make it up, well not as well as his newspapers


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			Lol... random member of public in BBC audience who got to ask a question is a Labour Party Communications staffer....

...what are the chances of that?
		
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A lot less than an 'Orange Jaiket' ex UKIP candidate, super ultra yoon  appearing on FOUR BBC QT Scottish programmes on the trot and being chosen to ask questions on THREE of them.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why is Corbyn wearing that tatty scarf?
		
Click to expand...

Crikey itâ€™s dreadful donâ€™t vote for him it doesnâ€™t go with his 17yr old marks and Spencerâ€™s coat or his National health glasses ... when is he going to get his teeth straightened and whitened.

Good news top shop for men have a shiney suit in his size ..yay


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## Gopher (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Letâ€™s do the obvious one, that article is from July and is in the Manifesto and even the link says reduce the tax, not get rid.
		
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Errr no... the link says that Labour plan to reduce the inheritance tax _threshold_, not reduce the tax.

if you don't know the difference then there's not much point discussing it.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Crikey itâ€™s dreadful donâ€™t vote for him it doesnâ€™t go with his 17yr old marks and Spencerâ€™s coat or his National health glasses ... when is he going to get his teeth straightened and whitened.

Good news top shop for men have a shiney suit in his size ..yay
		
Click to expand...

My question was why, in other words has it some significance. I expect little else from you sir.


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## 2blue (Nov 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why is Corbyn wearing that tatty scarf?
		
Click to expand...




Gopher said:



			Errr no... the link says that Labour plan to reduce the inheritance tax _threshold_, not reduce the tax.

if you don't know the difference then there's not much point discussing it.
		
Click to expand...

Hey-up.......  they've finally arrived in town.... they'll be fine company for that Â£80,000 QT guy...  hahaha


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2019)

2blue said:



			Hey-up.......  they've finally arrived in town.... they'll be fine company for that Â£80,000 QT guy...  hahaha
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you could answer the question rather than silly prevarication ðŸ™„


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## Fade and Die (Nov 23, 2019)

2blue said:



			Hey-up.......  they've finally arrived in town.... they'll be fine company for that Â£80,000 QT guy...  hahaha
		
Click to expand...

Hey-up someoneâ€™s been on the Ale. ðŸ˜†


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

Gopher said:



			Errr no... the link says that Labour plan to reduce the inheritance tax _threshold_, not reduce the tax.

if you don't know the difference then there's not much point discussing it.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously you have difficulty reading what you typed!

You stated it will END with Labour and posted a link to inheritance tax, and just as I replied itâ€™s not ENDING.
They plan to reverse what Osborne brought in as per their manifesto.

You do yourself no favours trying to be clever.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2019)

2blue said:



			Hey-up.......  they've finally arrived in town.... they'll be fine company for that Â£80,000 QT guy...  hahaha
		
Click to expand...

Is it a full moon?


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## Gopher (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously you have difficulty reading what you typed!

You stated it will END with Labour and posted a link to inheritance tax, and just as I replied itâ€™s not ENDING.
They plan to reverse what Osborne brought in as per their manifesto.

You do yourself no favours trying to be clever.

Click to expand...

You're doing yourself no favours trying to understand something that you clearly don't.

What part of 'Labour looking at scrapping Inheritance Tax threshold' don't you understand?  Does it need explaining to you?


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## Wolf (Nov 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously you have difficulty reading what you typed!

You stated it will END with Labour and posted a link to inheritance tax, and just as I replied itâ€™s not ENDING.
They plan to reverse what Osborne brought in as per their manifesto.

You do yourself no favours trying to be clever.

Click to expand...

To be fair Paul I think you may have got a bit lost in translation with what @Gopher  has wrote. He hasn't said the tax will end with labour, I think from reading what he's wrote is that it will be the end of people being able to work their whole lives and leave behind property or any form of inheritance to kids or loved ones.

Because it's not the tax they're cutting its the threshold at which an inheritance qualifies before becoming taxable thus meaning you, me or anyone will in fact pay more inheritance tax, so say we leave an inheritance to  our kids  they will in fact get a lot less meaning the security blanket we think were leaving behind has ended.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it a full moon?

Click to expand...

It certainly is ðŸ™„


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			To be fair Paul I think you may have got a bit lost in translation with what @Gopher  has wrote. He hasn't said the tax will end with labour, I think from reading what he's wrote is that it will be the end of people being able to work their whole lives and leave behind property or any form of inheritance to kids or loved ones.

Because it's not the tax they're cutting its the threshold at which an inheritance qualifies before becoming taxable thus meaning you, me or anyone will in fact pay more inheritance tax leaving so say we leave an inheritance to  our kids  they will in fact get a lot less meaning the security blanket we think were leaving behind has ended.
		
Click to expand...

This is a big one and Iâ€™m surprised the Torys havenâ€™t jumped on it big time.

Replacing inheritance tax with a â€œlifetime gift allowanceâ€ of Â£125k is a huge sea change.
At the moment inheritance tax is paid by only 5% of estates, so it hits the rich and super rich, but not the people in the middle.

The new system will affect about 65% of estates (taking out the rental sector) or 90% of homeowners.

I can see this being huge


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This is a big one and Iâ€™m surprised the Torys havenâ€™t jumped on it big time.

Replacing inheritance tax with a â€œlifetime gift allowanceâ€ of Â£125k is a huge sea change.
At the moment inheritance tax is paid by only 5% of estates, so it hits the rich and super rich, but not the people in the middle.

The new system will affect about 65% of estates (taking out the rental sector) or 90% of homeowners.

I can see this being huge
		
Click to expand...

They are suggesting reversing the changes brought in by George Osborne, it will revert to were we were in 2010-14, surprisingly enough (using a couple as the example) very few people in the Country have Â£250,000.00 in assests.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			To be fair Paul I think you may have got a bit lost in translation with what @Gopher  has wrote. He hasn't said the tax will end with labour, I think from reading what he's wrote is that it will be the end of people being able to work their whole lives and leave behind property or any form of inheritance to kids or loved ones.

Because it's not the tax they're cutting its the threshold at which an inheritance qualifies before becoming taxable thus meaning you, me or anyone will in fact pay more inheritance tax leaving so say we leave an inheritance to  our kids  they will in fact get a lot less meaning the security blanket we think were leaving behind has ended.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers for that, I accept I have been confused by his wording and him saying it will end.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Gopher said:



			You're doing yourself no favours trying to understand something that you clearly don't.

What part of 'Labour looking at scrapping Inheritance Tax threshold' don't you understand?  Does it need explaining to you? 

Click to expand...

Would you like to answer the Duke of Westminster question?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They are suggesting reversing the changes brought in by George Osborne, it will revert to were we were in 2010-14, surprisingly enough (using a couple as the example) very few people in the Country have Â£250,000.00 in assests.
		
Click to expand...

depends where you live Paul

Down south the average 3 bed semi/ terrace costs Â£280-Â£300 k minimum thatâ€™s in Aylesbury, go closer to London by 10 miles to Chesham and itâ€™s Â£350k 

There is going to be a shedload of middle England not happy with this proposal


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			depends where you live Paul

Down south the average 3 bed semi/ terrace costs Â£280-Â£300 k minimum thatâ€™s in Aylesbury, go closer to London by 10 miles to Chesham and itâ€™s Â£350k

There is going to be a shedload of middle England not happy with this proposal
		
Click to expand...

Equity release will be used to avoid paying out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			depends where you live Paul

Down south the average 3 bed semi/ terrace costs Â£280-Â£300 k minimum thatâ€™s in Aylesbury, go closer to London by 10 miles to Chesham and itâ€™s Â£350k

There is going to be a shedload of middle England not happy with this proposal
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t agree with it Phil as I said above, but once again itâ€™s a Policy that makes no difference to those at the top or bottom and catches the few in the middle.
If, the Duke of Westminster had paid Inheritance tax it would of nearly equalled the amount collected by the Government in that year, the whole system needs a review.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 24, 2019)

For a minute, try and forget the fixation with the duke of Westminster.

He is an anomaly, Iâ€™m more concerned with the average person in the street, who has worked hard, saved, bought a house, raised a family and wants to pass that onto the kids.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			For a minute, try and forget the fixation with the duke of Westminster.

He is an anomaly, Iâ€™m more concerned with the average person in the street, who has worked hard, saved, bought a house, raised a family and wants to pass that onto the kids.
		
Click to expand...

Look at the HMRC figures, the average person in the street doesnâ€™t meet the threshold, like I said, itâ€™s the minority in the middle, which would includes me, that is affected unfairly.

The Duke of Westminster isnâ€™t a fixation, itâ€™s the crux of the problem, the rich get richer, donâ€™t pay their fair share and people like you and me are shafted.


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## Beezerk (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t agree with it Phil as I said above, but once again itâ€™s a Policy that makes no difference to those at the top or bottom and catches the few in the middle.
If, the Duke of Westminster had paid Inheritance tax it would of nearly equalled the amount collected by the Government in that year, the whole system needs a review.
		
Click to expand...

I think I may be getting crossed wires here but in my understanding this new policy would affect the majority of the home owning population.
Average UK house price is around Â£230,000, you show me somewhere you can buy a fairly decent family home in a reasonable area for under Â£125,000, they don't exist. They giveth with one hand and taketh with the other.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			depends where you live Paul

Down south the average 3 bed semi/ terrace costs Â£280-Â£300 k minimum thatâ€™s in Aylesbury, go closer to London by 10 miles to Chesham and itâ€™s Â£350k

There is going to be a shedload of middle England not happy with this proposal
		
Click to expand...

Fragger, you've seen mine, bog standard 3 bedroom end of terrace in the SW London commuter belt.  The one next door went for over 500k.  Ridiculously overpriced for what you actually get but it's the market rate round here so that's what you'll pay the tax on.

So, depending on what happens in relation to spouses, could Mrs. BiM end up having to pay a sizeable chunk to stay in our family home should I go first?  Concerning...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I think I may be getting crossed wires here but in my understanding this new policy would affect the majority of the home owning population.
Average UK house price is around Â£230,000, you show me somewhere you can buy a fairly decent family home in a reasonable area for under Â£125,000, they don't exist. They giveth with one hand and taketh with the other.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m not clever enough to cover every scenario and every way it may or may not affect people.
Below is the last Inheritance tax stats produced by HMRC, the next one is due in 2020. On this you will see the figures going back years, on current rules only 4.6% of deaths were covered by IHT.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ttachment_data/file/832126/IHT_Commentary.pdf

There is also this analysis done by the BBC and it shows wealth etc

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-48759591

Like Iâ€™ve stated, Iâ€™m against the proposals and the above are actual facts.
We may feel â€œasset wealthyâ€ but in the big scheme of things, we may not be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fragger, you've seen mine, bog standard 3 bedroom end of terrace in the SW London commuter belt.  The one next door went for over 500k.  Ridiculously overpriced for what you actually get but it's the market rate round here so that's what you'll pay the tax on.

So, depending on what happens in relation to spouses, could Mrs. BiM end up having to pay a sizeable chunk to stay in our family home should I go first?  Concerning...
		
Click to expand...

Not 100% sure, but I believe it depends on marital status and names on the documents. The issue is more if you went first then Mrs BiM needed to go in to care, she could be forced to sell her assets to cover the costs. (I think)


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not 100% sure, but I believe it depends on marital status and names on the documents.
		
Click to expand...

At the moment; what else might change with the threshold?




pauldj42 said:



*The issue is more if you went first then Mrs BiM needed to go in to care, she could be forced to sell her assets to cover the costs. *(I think)
		
Click to expand...

Whereas if you spend your life making no provision for yourself but pee it all up the wall and then need care, the state provides it.  Which in my opinion is wrong and should be addressed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			At the moment; what else might change with the threshold?




Whereas if you spend your life making no provision for yourself but pee it all up the wall and then need care, the state provides it.  Which in my opinion is wrong and should be addressed.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, although we must be careful we donâ€™t treat all those with nothing as wasters. (Not you)

Not sure of all ins and out, had sone dealings last year as an executor of a will and even at current levels the tax man gets a few bites of the cherry.

The best/worst part, if youâ€™re wealthy enough, is to use an accountant and make sure the Government gets nothing as in The Duke of Westminster,


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## spongebob59 (Nov 24, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198530877988454400


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 24, 2019)

Information about what labor will do regards paying tax taken from papers who are owned by extremely wealthy non-dom individuals who pay little tax in the UK is the most sensible way to decide who to vote for.  #fullfact


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They are suggesting reversing the changes brought in by George Osborne, it will revert to were we were in 2010-14, surprisingly enough (using a couple as the example)* very few people in the Country have Â£250,000.00 in assests.[/Q*UOTE]

That is not so. Let's examine this.
Who are the ones most likely not to die, - the young
And  who will die soon.- the elderly.
Generally, what have the latter got that the former haven't ?  A house which they own.
A lifetime of sensible living and favourable conditions means they have assets in bricks and mortar of at least Â£200,000- most have more.
So that's a lot of what were working people going to be shafted (or rather the children , who have not near so much ) .
Try using google earth to go over most towns and look at the homes. Most are owned and every one of those will be shafted at some point by Corbyn .
		
Click to expand...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

I think you get taxed on the amount over the threshold value.
If your being wise you will downsize and seek to invest the money in some form of savings /annuity, you can also set isaâ€™s for grandchildren or children and make lump sum contributions up to a certain value.
In essence there are loads of methods of getting your hard earned to those you would like to benefit and reduce your pay out to the tax man.
Donâ€™t accuse me of cheating the tax man, these loops have been left to be exploited.
I think your getting yourselves a little hot under the collar over nothing that cannot be resolved with a little strategic thinking.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Equity release will be used to avoid paying out.
		
Click to expand...

An absurd suggestion, equity release to reduce your assets to below the tax threshold will only work if you have nobody to pass your estate to.

Itâ€™s a lifetime gift allowance, so if you have a house like BIM worth Â£500k and you take equity release and give your 2 kids Â£125k between them. when you peg it, whatâ€™s left after the equity release vultures have had their bite will still be taxed as the kids have already had their share.

The only difference is if the threshold rises over time, so if itâ€™s 130 when you go they could claim an extra 5k tax free between them


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			An absurd suggestion, equity release to reduce your assets to below the tax threshold will only work if you have nobody to pass your estate to.

Itâ€™s a lifetime gift allowance, so if you have a house like BIM worth Â£500k and you take equity release and give your 2 kids Â£125k between them. when you peg it, whatâ€™s left after the equity release vultures have had their bite will still be taxed as the kids have already had their share.

The only difference is if the threshold rises over time, so if itâ€™s 130 when you go they could claim an extra 5k tax free between them
		
Click to expand...

Equity release is just a method, that has been latched onto by the unscrupulous firms ..
BIM has a choice sell up and fund a good retirement and care home. Or sit on an asset and when the time comes give away a lot of tax .. seriously needs to discuss options with an accountant and IFA


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2019)

Angela Raynor made a great job of dodging Andrew Mar's question on how Labour's statement where only the top 5% of earners will pay more income tax when millions of people on the basic rate will if Labour removes the Married tax allowance.  Should we all start shouting out 'Liars'


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			An absurd suggestion, equity release to reduce your assets to below the tax threshold will only work if you have nobody to pass your estate to.

Itâ€™s a lifetime gift allowance, so if you have a house like BIM worth Â£500k and you take equity release and give your 2 kids Â£125k between them. when you peg it, whatâ€™s left after the equity release vultures have had their bite will still be taxed as the kids have already had their share.

The only difference is if the threshold rises over time, so if itâ€™s 130 when you go they could claim an extra 5k tax free between them
		
Click to expand...

You are only allowed to gift a maximum of Â£3000 per year tax free.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

*Exempted gifts*
You can give away Â£3,000 worth of gifts each tax year (6 April to 5 April) without them being added to the value of your estate. This is known as your â€˜annual exemptionâ€™.
You can carry any unused annual exemption forward to the next year - but only for one year.
Each tax year, you can also give away:

wedding or civil ceremony gifts of up to Â£1,000 per person (Â£2,500 for a grandchild or great-grandchild, Â£5,000 for a child)
normal gifts out of your income, for example Christmas or birthday presents - you must be able to maintain your standard of living after making the gift
payments to help with another personâ€™s living costs, such as an elderly relative or a child under 18
gifts to charities and political parties


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are only allowed to gift a maximum of Â£3000 per year tax free.
		
Click to expand...

Not if you survive for 7 years, the tax liability drops year on year on a sliding scale


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

So try not to pop your clogs in the next 7 years ... 
Be generous at Christmas and birthdays...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Equity release is just a method, that has been latched onto by the unscrupulous firms ..
*BIM has a choice sell up and fund a good retirement and care home. Or sit on an asset and when the time comes give away a lot of tax* .. seriously needs to discuss options with an accountant and IFA
		
Click to expand...

BiM as a taxpayer should have the same access to end of life care as those who have chosen not to make any such provision.  Why should BiM be forced to move away from his home, his friends and his hobbies in order to avoid being mugged in old age by the taxman?  The system is utterly wrong in this respect.  And please don't suggest BiM downsizes to stay in the same area as the only beneficiaries from that will be the lawyers and estate agents, given the property prices round here.

And the IFA (who says don't touch equity release with a barge pole) is paying his annual visit tomorrow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not if you survive for 7 years, the tax liability drops year on year on a sliding scale
		
Click to expand...

Isnâ€™t this only for say a house, ie, I sign my house to my son, if I live over 7 years and then peg it, the house is his, if under the 7 heâ€™d be liable to tax on a sliding scale?


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## Beezerk (Nov 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Information about what labor will do regards paying tax taken from papers who are owned by extremely wealthy non-dom individuals who pay little tax in the UK is the most sensible way to decide who to vote for.  #fullfact
		
Click to expand...

Aaah the old fake news stance. Very Trump esque ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			BiM as a taxpayer should have the same access to end of life care as those who have chosen not to make any such provision.  Why should BiM be forced to move away from his home, his friends and his hobbies in order to avoid being mugged in old age by the taxman?  The system is utterly wrong in this respect.  And please don't suggest BiM downsizes to stay in the same area as the only beneficiaries from that will be the lawyers and estate agents, given the property prices round here.

And the IFA (who says don't touch equity release with a barge pole) is paying his annual visit tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

This is the same scenario for all parties, the difference is were the different parties decide to step in.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			BiM as a taxpayer should have the same access to end of life care as those who have chosen not to make any such provision.  Why should BiM be forced to move away from his home, his friends and his hobbies in order to avoid being mugged in old age by the taxman?  The system is utterly wrong in this respect.  And please don't suggest BiM downsizes to stay in the same area as the only beneficiaries from that will be the lawyers and estate agents, given the property prices round here.

And the IFA (who says don't touch equity release with a barge pole) is paying his annual visit tomorrow.
		
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Then you have made your choices and the system is equitable to all .. if you donâ€™t want to react to it thatâ€™s your choice but donâ€™t complain about it.
Also I would point out that most of those who pee it up the wall have a lower life expectancy and generally donâ€™t stress the care system after retirement.. before retirement yeah they stress the system to breaking point having witnessed some silliness in A and E this week with my 7 yr old son. 
But you can look at it like this and this will really upset you... in life your contributions have not been enough and that needs balancing in death .. thatâ€™s pretty horrible, perhaps itâ€™s worth chasing the Billionaires for taxes and Amazon, Facebook, google, boots, Vodafone etc ...


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think you get taxed on the amount over the threshold value.
If your being wise you will downsize and seek to invest the money in some form of savings /annuity, you can also set isaâ€™s for grandchildren or children and make lump sum contributions up to a certain value.
In essence there are loads of methods of getting your hard earned to those you would like to benefit and reduce your pay out to the tax man.
Donâ€™t accuse me of cheating the tax man, these loops have been left to be exploited.
I think your getting yourselves a little hot under the collar over nothing that cannot be resolved with a little strategic thinking.
		
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No, not the point. Why the hell should you have to go to lengths you suggest
to ensure that Corbyn government doesn't get your assets. They are not easy, cheap  steps to take.
The whole principle of such a tax is wrong. Take two working families living in detached bungalows in, say, The midlands. 
Both being bought on mortgages.
Children now gone, both have just husband and wife. 
One has saved throughout: the other has had a good time and in order to keep up the holidays and nights out etc, the other mortgages the home further, instead of owning it outright.
They die (husband then wife, usual order) within a couple of years of each other , under Corbyn Labour Government 
The first widow 's estate has a few thousand cash and  the Â£400 000 bungalow.
The second widow's estate has a few hundred and the mortgage company has the bungalow.
Why should the government grab thousands off the first because they didn't piss it against the wall each weekend?
Only one conclusion- it's the politics of envy, not fairness.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*Then you have made your choices and the system is equitable to all *.. if you donâ€™t want to react to it thatâ€™s your choice but donâ€™t complain about it.
Also I would point out that most of those who pee it up the wall have a lower life expectancy and generally donâ€™t stress the care system after retirement.. before retirement yeah they stress the system to breaking point having witnessed some silliness in A and E this week with my 7 yr old son.
But you can look at it like this and this will really upset you... in life your contributions have not been enough and that needs balancing in death .. thatâ€™s pretty horrible, perhaps itâ€™s worth chasing the Billionaires for taxes and Amazon, Facebook, google, boots, Vodafone etc ...
		
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Having been through the care & property treadmill with the MiL, the system is not equitable.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having been through the care & property treadmill with the MiL, the system is not equitable.
		
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Itâ€™s equitable because it affects a huge percentage...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, not the point. Why the hell should you have to go to lengths you suggest
to ensure that Corbyn government doesn't get your assets. They are not easy, cheap  steps to take.
The whole principle of such a tax is wrong. Take two working families living in detached bungalows in, say, The midlands.
Both being bought on mortgages.
Children now gone, both have just husband and wife.
One has saved throughout: the other has had a good time and in order to keep up the holidays and nights out etc, the other mortgages the home further, instead of owning it outright.
They die (husband then wife, usual order) within a couple of years of each other , under Corbyn Labour Government
The first widow 's estate has a few thousand cash and  the Â£400 000 bungalow.
The second widow's estate has a few hundred and the mortgage company has the bungalow.
Why should the government grab thousands off the first because they didn't piss it against the wall each weekend?
Only one conclusion- it's the politics of envy, not fairness.
		
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The couple who have peed up the wall have paid tax during their life time.. tax on booze, VAT etc... itâ€™s just drip or in one whole go.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The couple who have peed up the wall have paid tax during their life time.. tax on booze, VAT etc... itâ€™s just drip or in one whole go.
		
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Youâ€™re wasting your time, people invent stories to meet their agenda.
The whole system is crap from all parties, but they focus on the poor rather than arguing the top should be focused on to ensure a Government has the funds to provide a decent standard of care for all.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Then you have made your choices and the system is equitable to all .. if you donâ€™t want to react to it thatâ€™s your choice but donâ€™t complain about it.
*Also I would point out that most of those who pee it up the wall have a lower life expectancy and generally donâ€™t stress the care system after retirement..* before retirement yeah they stress the system to breaking point having witnessed some silliness in A and E this week with my 7 yr old son.
But you can look at it like this and this will really upset you... in life your contributions have not been enough and that needs balancing in death .. thatâ€™s pretty horrible, perhaps itâ€™s worth chasing the Billionaires for taxes and Amazon, Facebook, google, boots, Vodafone etc ...
		
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Oh, so therefore they should get spent on them the money grabbed off you by Corbyn, because you have an unfair advantage in living longer because you didn't pee it up?
That's fair..."...."...............Like hell!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Isnâ€™t this only for say a house, ie, I sign my house to my son, if I live over 7 years and then peg it, the house is his, if under the 7 heâ€™d be liable to tax on a sliding scale?
		
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Yes that is correct, my father, after advice from his financial advisor split his house between me and my brother as he was worried he would be forced to sell to look after my mum. Sadly that scenario never occurred. 15 years later he is still alive but we now own his house. I think it worked ok in our case but not sure what would have happened if he had wanted to downsize.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The couple who have peed up the wall have paid tax during their life time.. tax on booze, VAT etc... itâ€™s just drip or in one whole go.
		
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That's not a good argument, is it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

So a tax invented by the rich, which is now abused by the rich is Corbynâ€™s fault. All makes sense now


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not a good argument, is it?
		
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That's remarkably controlled for you, good sirðŸ˜€

In fact, it is the daftest one I've seen on here in a long time. Some people's idea of what is fair is unbelievable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 24, 2019)

Bloomin hilarious for rUK watching England realise what the BBC is really like.
The latest one is cutting out the audience laughter on the news clip used when Johnson was asked about 'trust' on the leaders debate.


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## 2blue (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The couple who have peed up the wall have paid tax during their life time.. tax on booze, VAT etc... itâ€™s just drip or in one whole go.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			That's not a good argument, is it?
		
Click to expand...




Swinglowandslow said:



			That's remarkably controlled for you, good sirðŸ˜€

In fact, it is the daftest one I've seen on here in a long time. Some people's idea of what is fair is unbelievable.
		
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Meanwhile, the 'Holier than Thou' crowd grows larger.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			Meanwhile, the 'Holier than Thou' crowd grows larger. 

Click to expand...

Whilst still giving no opinion on some of the rich who pay less, or no IHT at all, than the poor couple in the bungalow.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re wasting your time, people invent stories to meet their agenda.
The whole system is crap from all parties, but they focus on the poor rather than arguing the top should be focused on to ensure a Government has the funds to provide a decent standard of care for all.
		
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Your right, because the argument undermines their point. 
I suppose also the fact that they have been voting on short term tax benefits is coming home to roost.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not a good argument, is it?
		
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Only to those who donâ€™t want to accept it .. we all know the system is not getting the right amount of support. You can choose to propagate the issue or you can identify those who are not pulling their weight. 
Do you not think itâ€™s strange that all the newspapers are owned by billionaires who donâ€™t pay their taxes .. they stay offshore and still make money out of the U.K. , is that right?


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## patricks148 (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Your right, because the argument undermines their point.
I suppose also the fact that they have been voting on short term tax benefits is coming home to roost.
		
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yeah, not to mention the attitude of Fk U i'm all right jack that is now prevelent in the UK


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## Wolf (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whilst still giving no opinion on some of the rich who pay less, or no IHT at all, than the poor couple in the bungalow.
		
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Problem with IHT threshold being lowered is it still won't harm the rich as much as it will the middle and lower income families. They may pay a bit more but they'll still be rich and well off, the middle and lower incomes will still be harder hit because the little they did save up for their families rainy day will be smaller and won't be anywhere near what they thought they were leaving. 

Unfortunately with IHT there isn't a good outcome because nobody wants to pay tax on something whilst their grieving and knowing their loved ones worked hard to give them something they then have to pay out for the privledge of having something left to them in the event of death. 

Do I think the rich should pay more than the middle/lower incomes (poor so to speak) ? YES but in reality with a lower IHT threshold the poor pay more to and that isnt the balance that is being proposed it's actually taking more at both ends of the scale. Bit like Robin Hood robbing from the rich to take from the poor anyway ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re wasting your time,* people invent stories to meet their agenda.*
The whole system is crap from all parties, but they focus on the poor rather than arguing the top should be focused on to ensure a Government has the funds to provide a decent standard of care for all.
		
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harpo_72 said:



			Your right, because the argument undermines their point.
*I suppose also the fact that they have been voting on short term tax benefits is coming home to roost.*

Click to expand...

So no invention there about how or why people have been voting then?


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## Beezerk (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whilst still giving no opinion on some of the rich who pay less, or no IHT at all, than the poor couple in the bungalow.
		
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I don't understand your argument, you've been posting about standing up for people with a lower income but this lower IHT threshold would directly impact them.
Weird.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Problem with IHT threshold being lowered is it still won't harm the rich as much as it will the middle and lower income families. They may pay a bit more but they'll still be rich and well off, the middle and lower incomes will still be harder hit because the little they did save up for their families rainy day will be smaller and won't be anywhere near what they thought they were leaving.

Unfortunately with IHT there isn't a good outcome because nobody wants to pay tax on something whilst their grieving and knowing their loved ones worked hard to give them something they then have to pay out for the privledge of having something left to them in the event of death.

Do I think the rich should pay more than the middle/lower incomes (poor so to speak) ? YES but in reality with a lower IHT threshold the poor pay more to and that isnt the balance that is being proposed it's actually taking more at both ends of the scale. Bit like Robin Hood robbing from the rich to take from the poor anyway ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Totally agree mate, Iâ€™m one whoâ€™ll be hit by the policy, my anger is not only aimed at Labour though.
The tories have allowed the loopholes to stay open for the rich.
Focussing on some waste of space pissing every penny up against the wall than some greedy billionaire failing to pay a penny is just daft imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So no invention there about how or why people have been voting then? 

Click to expand...

I was talking about the bungalow fairy story mate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I don't understand your argument, you've been posting about standing up for people with a lower income but this lower IHT threshold would directly impact them.
Weird.
		
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See post below yours mate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

For those worried about our National Security the tories have dropped their promise to not cutting the Armed Forces from the current manifesto.
It was in the 2017 Manifesto.


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## Wolf (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree mate, Iâ€™m one whoâ€™ll be hit by the policy, my anger is not only aimed at Labour though.
The tories have allowed the loopholes to stay open for the rich.
Focussing on some waste of space pissing every penny up against the wall than some greedy billionaire failing to pay a penny is just daft imo.
		
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This is where we are most certainly in agreement, lowering the threshold does nothing to the higher ends but hurts the likes of you and me. Every government has failed to do what matters and that's close the loopholes that affect the biggest loss in this area, but instead are now focusing on recouping it at the lower end, the reason being mostly because the politicians and their funders are the ones that are able to exploit the loopholes so are less affected.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			This is where we are most certainly in agreement, lowering the threshold does nothing to the higher ends but hurts the likes of you and me. Every government has failed to do what matters and that's close the loopholes that affect the biggest loss in this area, but instead are now focusing on recouping it at the lower end, the reason being mostly because the politicians and their funders are the ones that are able to exploit the loopholes so are less affected.
		
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Iâ€™m not in agreement with this Labour policy, but they are also stating they will target the loopholes. Still sh!te though.


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## Wolf (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For those worried about our National Security the tories have dropped their promise to not cutting the Armed Forces from the current manifesto.
It was in the 2017 Manifesto.
		
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Yeah just seen this myself a compete U turn on the promise of 2 years ago, failure to admit that a huge issue has been the use of Capita as a private firm for recruitment of forces personnel instead of keeping it in house. So rather than admit failure which has been costly, they're cutting the overall number to save costs of public money there.. 

Another reason not to vote for Boris and his brigade. Better in this case had they acknowledged the failure of the deal with Capita and cut that loss to save the money and put recruitment directly back in the hands of Army, RAF & Navy, which would in essence enable more jobs as they'd need the recruiting teams, medics, PTs & training staff. This would have led to better retention as current personnel could take a side step towards end of careers to working in training regiments & recruitment areas whilst having the knowledge to recruit accurately and effectively.

Edit: whilst saving millions on their terrible deal with Capita which could be redirected to public funds.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Yeah just seen this myself a compete U turn on the promise of 2 years ago, failure to admit that a huge issue has been the use of Capita as a private firm for recruitment of forces personnel instead of keeping it in house. So rather than admit failure which has been costly, they're cutting the overall number to save costs of public money there.. 

Another reason not to vote for Boris and his brigade. Better in this case had they acknowledged the failure of the deal with Capita and cut that loss to save the money and put recruitment directly back in the hands of Army, RAF & Navy, which would in essence enable more jobs as they'd need the recruiting teams, medics, PTs & training staff. This would have led to better retention as current personnel could take a side step towards end of careers to working in training regiments & recruitment areas whilst having the knowledge to recruit accurately and effectively.
		
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Itâ€™s across a lot of industries and costs can be saved and services can be improved.
The biggest asset to any organisation is the people within it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I was talking about the bungalow fairy story mate.

Click to expand...

Do you live with your eyes closed?
Are you telling us that there are no cases of surviving spouses' estates having to pay IHT?  Or no cases of those who had similar incomes but spent it all?
That these scenarios, or similar are not to be found throughout this country?

I'm not criticising those who spend it , that's their business, and their entitlement, what I'm criticising is a tax that is imposed on those who choose to pass it on to their children instead of spending it.
And this opinion is no way affected by how the rich ( particularly Companies) avoid the taxes that they should lawfully pay. I imagine my view on that is similar to  yours.


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## Wolf (Nov 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s across a lot of industries and costs can be saved and services can be improved.
The biggest asset to any organisation is the people within it.
		
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Totally agree but knowing how the change of recruitment has gone from. Knowledge within and what its costing for use of Capita there would be a bigger saving there, without harming the future potential security of the country.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do you live with your eyes closed?
Are you telling us that there are no cases of surviving spouses' estates having to pay IHT?  Or no cases of those who had similar incomes but spent it all?
That these scenarios, or similar are not to be found throughout this country?

I'm not criticising those who spend it , that's their business, and their entitlement, what I'm criticising is a tax that is imposed on those who choose to pass it on to their children instead of spending it.
And this opinion is no way affected by how the rich ( particularly Companies) avoid the taxes that they should lawfully pay. I imagine my view on that is similar to  yours.
		
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Of course there is, but as youâ€™ve agreed the issue is the rich.
Youâ€™ve given one version of what can happen and the tories are offering nothing to address the situation.

You could raise the IHT to 500K and there would be even more people happy, it still wouldnâ€™t make it right if the super rich are still paying nothing.

So rather than just focussing all my anger at Labour, Iâ€™d rather focus on both them and the tories and ask why we donâ€™t have a fair system for all.

Iâ€™ve already been questioned about a supposed fixation with the Duke of Westminster, but by him using â€œlegalâ€ loopholes before he died his son inherited over 8 Billion and paid very little if anything in inheritance tax.
Under Government rules and avoiding loopholes that amounted to billions in lost revenue to the Government.
But instead of us getting angry and annoyed at that the present government allow it, we get angry at a policy that may or may not actually happen.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Angela Raynor made a great job of dodging Andrew Mar's question on how Labour's statement where only the top 5% of earners will pay more income tax when millions of people on the basic rate will if Labour removes the Married tax allowance.  Should we all start shouting out 'Liars'
		
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That's been picked up by a few interviewers since the manifesto was released. Might gain some negative traction like George Osbourne's pasty tax.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course there is, but as youâ€™ve agreed the issue is the rich.
Youâ€™ve given one version of what can happen and the tories are offering nothing to address the situation.

You could raise the IHT to 500K and there would be even more people happy, it still wouldnâ€™t make it right if the super rich are still paying nothing.

So rather than just focussing all my anger at Labour, Iâ€™d rather focus on both them and the tories and ask why we donâ€™t have a fair system for all.

Iâ€™ve already been questioned about a supposed fixation with the Duke of Westminster, but by him using â€œlegalâ€ loopholes before he died his son inherited over 8 Billion and paid very little if anything in inheritance tax.
Under Government rules and avoiding loopholes that amounted to billions in lost revenue to the Government.
But instead of us getting angry and annoyed at that the present government allow it, we get angry at a policy that may or may not actually happen.
		
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Lets drop the Duke out of the argument for a second. I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, just looking to take an emotive angle out of it.

Why does anyone have to pay inheritance tax? Or, if there has to be an inheritance tax why not make, say, 5% of all cash/shares/bonds over Â£250k?

In most cases, rich or otherwise, the money will have been earned and taxed, and taxed at a higher rate if they're high earners. The money they invested will have had its interest taxed. Inheritance tax taxes the capital sum. Just why is that fair?

Its nothing short of robbery, and you'll never convince me its anything else.

Close the loopholes by all means, and make taxation fair for all. But a death tax on capital sums and assets, including the family home... its obscene.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Lets drop the Duke out of the argument for a second. I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, just looking to take an emotive angle out of it.

Why does anyone have to pay inheritance tax? Or, if there has to be an inheritance tax why not make, say, 5% of all cash/shares/bonds over Â£250k?

In most cases, rich or otherwise, the money will have been earned and taxed, and taxed at a higher rate if they're high earners. The money they invested will have had its interest taxed. Inheritance tax taxes the capital sum. Just why is that fair?

Its nothing short of robbery, and you'll never convince me its anything else.

Close the loopholes by all means, and make taxation fair for all. But a death tax on capital sums and assets, including the family home... its obscene.
		
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100% agree Bri, not one bit of me agrees with it.

Had my eyes opened last year when involved as an executor, the accountant was superb who did the financial side and walked the 3 (executers) through it.

Tax upon tax at every opportunity.


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For those worried about our National Security the tories have dropped their promise to not cutting the Armed Forces from the current manifesto.
It was in the 2017 Manifesto.
		
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Easy target bud, Torys have always used it as a way of raising money and never been reversed by Labour. Might as well reduce it all now as unless they are needed to help fill Wembley they aren't in much of a position apart from the subs to do much. Strange at a time when Russia and China are expanding like crazy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Easy target bud, Torys have always used it as a way of raising money and never been reversed by Labour. Might as well reduce it all now as unless they are needed to help fill Wembley they aren't in much of a position apart from the subs to do much. Strange at a time when Russia and China are expanding like crazy.
		
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boris has just been asked at his manifesto launch if they are at risk and he said No to any cuts.
Good job his word is his bond.


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			boris has just been asked at his manifesto launch if they are at risk and he said No to any cuts.
Good job his word is his bond.

Click to expand...

Doubt anyone told him another complete Challenger 2 Regt to be funded


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2019)

Seems labours fiscal rules lasted less than 3 days and that's without being in power. Anyone like to hazard a guess where the Â£58bn is coming from. Could it be you and me?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I was talking about the bungalow fairy story mate.

Click to expand...

'twasn't aimed at you, was the following post about knowing what everyone voted for & using yours for the comparative, we're good, sorry if it came across the wrong way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Seems labours fiscal rules lasted less than 3 days and that's without being in power. Anyone like to hazard a guess where the Â£58bn is coming from. Could it be you and me?
		
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Binning off the RAF. 
Navy can have the planes and MPGS to replace RAF Regiment, jobs a goodun.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			'twasn't aimed at you, was the following post about knowing what everyone voted for & using yours for the comparative, we're good, sorry if it came across the wrong way. 

Click to expand...

No worries mate, my posts are way more confusing than yours.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Seems labours fiscal rules lasted less than 3 days and that's without being in power. Anyone like to hazard a guess where the Â£58bn is coming from. Could it be you and me?
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198559608685678592


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Binning off the RAF. 
Navy can have the planes and MPGS to replace RAF Regiment, jobs a goodun.

Click to expand...

Ideal', expenses claims down in one go however who's going to man the barriers on the main gate  MPGS busy drinking tea in the guardroom.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Ideal', expenses claims down in one go however who's going to man the barriers on the main gate 

Click to expand...

Redundant RAF Officers, wage will be equivalent to the Donkey Wallopers


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			'twasn't aimed at you, was the following post about knowing what everyone voted for & using yours for the comparative, we're good, sorry if it came across the wrong way. 

Click to expand...

Was aimed at me?
It was a generic term used for all the preceding governments who had a majority and ruled but offered tax cuts that we could ill afford .. 
hope that clears it up for you, Patrick followed up with the â€œI am alright jack @@@@ the rest of youâ€ post.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re wasting your time,* people invent stories to meet their agenda.*
The whole system is crap from all parties, but they focus on the poor rather than arguing the top should be focused on to ensure a Government has the funds to provide a decent standard of care for all.
		
Click to expand...

Paul refers to people, the voters.



harpo_72 said:



			Your right, because the argument undermines their point.
*I suppose also the fact that they have been voting on short term tax benefits is coming home to roost.*

Click to expand...

You respond to that mentioning voting, no mention of majority Governments.



harpo_72 said:



			Was aimed at me?
*It was a generic term used for all the preceding governments who had a majority and ruled but offered tax cuts that we could ill afford ..*
hope that clears it up for you, Patrick followed up with the â€œI am alright jack @@@@ the rest of youâ€ post.
		
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And now the attempt to weasel out, complete with the sarcastic "hope that clears itup for you" ad the attempt to deflect to Patrick.  

I at least expected you to stand by what you'd written, not try to slide out of it.  Disappointing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course there is, but as youâ€™ve agreed the issue is the rich.
Youâ€™ve given one version of what can happen and the tories are offering nothing to address the situation.

You could raise the IHT to 500K and there would be even more people happy, it still wouldnâ€™t make it right if the super rich are still paying nothing.

So rather than just focussing all my anger at Labour, Iâ€™d rather focus on both them and the tories and ask why we donâ€™t have a fair system for all.

Iâ€™ve already been questioned about a supposed fixation with the Duke of Westminster, but by him using â€œlegalâ€ loopholes before he died his son inherited over 8 Billion and paid very little if anything in inheritance tax.
Under Government rules and avoiding loopholes that amounted to billions in lost revenue to the Government.
But instead of us getting angry and annoyed at that the present government allow it, we get angry at a policy that may or may not actually happen.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt if you were in charge of the tax laws, the Dukes liability would have been much different. And I see where you are coming from and I agree it is wrong that clever accountants and lawyers can find ways to circumvent the intentions of the laws.
If I were in charge I should see to it that the very rich pay a fair share of tax for a fairer society. ( Than they do)
But that doesn't mean that you should support a proposed taxation system that penalises ordinary people who have made an effort to provide for their children.
Income and other taxes is a good tax if managed fairly , and it isn't at the moment. That's a different situation.
But IhT ( death duties) is by definition, IMO , not fair , nor desirable because of the attitudes it raises, and the aspirations it punishes.
Come on- I save more for my kids than you choose to save. So it's right that the Government takes some of it from them, but not from your kids.?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Paul refers to people, the voters.



You respond to that mentioning voting, no mention of majority Governments.



And now the attempt to weasel out, complete with the sarcastic "hope that clears itup for you" ad the attempt to deflect to Patrick. 

I at least expected you to stand by what you'd written, not try to slide out of it.  Disappointing.
		
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Not sliding or deflecting ..pointing out gently that Patrick got the gist.
But in a harsh note, you didnâ€™t and I wonâ€™t resort to name calling or making allegations.
As far as I am concerned this is closed and your points have been countered. Good luck with your IFA tomorrow.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2019)

National Grid and SSE create holding companies offshore as a protection measure against Labour's nationalisation plans. This is on top of 2 water companies that have already done this, and another that is in the process of doing so. In reality, this doesn't stop re-nationalisation but it does guarantee the company's value under Swiss law - been through a similar process with my last employer, as protection from a hostile buyout.

No driving the share price down prior to nationalisation by leaking intentions etc...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50536205


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 24, 2019)

Here at independent fact check UK we've crunched the numbers and gone through the conservative manifesto in depth and can exclusively inform you of the truly inspirational polices, the new transformative policies to give the country hope, to inspire us to forge our path in an uncertain and at times frightening world, to bring the country together, to truly address the issues impacting our great nation at the moment.



_Potholes_



So vote Conservative if you want your potholes fixed as it's ruining the ride in your 4 by 4/BMW/Audi/Jaaaaaaaaag.  And they may get Brexit done*





*Please don't tell anyone there's Bob Hope of them getting a decent trade deal by the end of 2020.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No doubt if you were in charge of the tax laws, the Dukes liability would have been much different. And I see where you are coming from and I agree it is wrong that clever accountants and lawyers can find ways to circumvent the intentions of the laws.
If I were in charge I should see to it that the very rich pay a fair share of tax for a fairer society. ( Than they do)
But that doesn't mean that you should support a proposed taxation system that penalises ordinary people who have made an effort to provide for their children.
Income and other taxes is a good tax if managed fairly , and it isn't at the moment. That's a different situation.
But IhT ( death duties) is by definition, IMO , not fair , nor desirable because of the attitudes it raises, and the aspirations it punishes.
Come on- I save more for my kids than you choose to save. So it's right that the Government takes some of it from them, but not from your kids.?
		
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Without sounding rude, have you missed all the posts were I have said I am angry at this policy and donâ€™t agree with it?

But our anger is misplaced because â€œWEâ€ will stay pay IHT even if Labour donâ€™t get in, we should be directing that to all parties, especially those who are allowing the rich to get richer and the gap between rich and poor grow.

Just because this policy would affect me or you as being the only reason to get angry, doesnâ€™t make it ok if it doesnâ€™t happen.
tory manifesto today not a thing about closing the loopholes.

All any of these taxes do whether itâ€™s Â£125,000 per person or Â£325,000 per person is encourage ways to avoid it.


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2019)

Corbyn's son has declared his company bankrupt for about Â£100k. Perjaps he getting ahead of the queue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Here at independent fact check UK we've crunched the numbers and gone through the conservative manifesto in depth and can exclusively inform you of the truly inspirational polices, the new transformative policies to give the country hope, to inspire us to forge our path in an uncertain and at times frightening world, to bring the country together, to truly address the issues impacting our great nation at the moment.



_Potholes_



So vote Conservative if you want your potholes fixed as it's ruining the ride in your 4 by 4/BMW/Audi/Jaaaaaaaaag.  And they may get Brexit done*





*Please don't tell anyone there's Bob Hope of them getting a decent trade deal by the end of 2020.
		
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Potholes for Government perhaps, but dog poo has always been the No1 complaint with Local Authorities.
If the Greens had dog poo clear up as their No 1 priority they would up in the 30% voting preference now.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Here at independent fact check UK we've crunched the numbers and gone through the conservative manifesto in depth and can exclusively inform you of the truly inspirational polices, the new transformative policies to give the country hope, to inspire us to forge our path in an uncertain and at times frightening world, to bring the country together, to truly address the issues impacting our great nation at the moment.



_Potholes_



So vote Conservative if you want your potholes fixed as it's ruining the ride in your 4 by 4/BMW/Audi/Jaaaaaaaaag.  And they may get Brexit done*





*Please don't tell anyone there's Bob Hope of them getting a decent trade deal by the end of 2020.
		
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I've  #Twazzockchecked this post and it passed with flying colours.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

Any Tory supporters on here believe the Johnson/Gove Government will deliver 40 new hospitals or 50,000 new NHS nurses.
If so I would like some facts on how this will be achieved.
Just simple answers please no deflection.


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## Grant85 (Nov 25, 2019)

Now we have the Conservative manifesto we'll see if this actually makes a difference. 

It seems a document fairly lacking in ambition and very much with the intention of 'don't mess this up, lets just nurse things over the line for the next couple of weeks'. 

1st of all - a Sunday afternoon launch. Aimed very much at keeping as low profile as possible given that fewer people will engage with the news on a Sunday and things will have died down as people consume news on a Monday. If they wanted to create a splash, then it should have been Thursday morning - get as much coverage as possible during the day with weekend reflection on their plans. 

Already by Monday morning before 9am, the Conservative Manifesto is not one of the 13 stories at the top section of the BBC news. 

As @Doon frae Troon has pointed out, even if you thought they could deliver 50,000 more nurses, and other socially motivated policies, do you really believe they want to - especially if they happen to win a big majority and can avoid (parliamentary) scrutiny (at least)? 

Potentially we will see a bump in the polls following the QT event on Friday evening. But it seems Labour have it all to do.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any Tory supporters on here believe the Johnson/Gove Government will deliver 40 new hospitals or 50,000 new NHS nurses.
If so I would like some facts on how this will be achieved.
Just simple answers please no deflection.
		
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Why do you look into it yourself and tell us, 

On second thoughts!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Now we have the Conservative manifesto we'll see if this actually makes a difference.

It seems a document fairly lacking in ambition and very much with the intention of 'don't mess this up, lets just nurse things over the line for the next couple of weeks'.

1st of all - a Sunday afternoon launch. Aimed very much at keeping as low profile as possible given that fewer people will engage with the news on a Sunday and things will have died down as people consume news on a Monday. If they wanted to create a splash, then it should have been Thursday morning - get as much coverage as possible during the day with weekend reflection on their plans.

Already by Monday morning before 9am, the Conservative Manifesto is not one of the 13 stories at the top section of the BBC news.

As @Doon frae Troon has pointed out, even if you thought they could deliver 50,000 more nurses, and other socially motivated policies, do you really believe they want to - especially if they happen to win a big majority and can avoid (parliamentary) scrutiny (at least)?

Potentially we will see a bump in the polls following the QT event on Friday evening. But it seems Labour have it all to do.
		
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I donâ€™t think Peston laid into him, the extra police claim needed to be raised.
I think we can tell from the spending profile they are kicking the tax avoidance can down the road ..or they are really scared about Brexit and want some reserves


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Now we have the Conservative manifesto we'll see if this actually makes a difference.

It seems a document fairly lacking in ambition and very much with the intention of 'don't mess this up, lets just nurse things over the line for the next couple of weeks'.

1st of all - a Sunday afternoon launch. Aimed very much at keeping as low profile as possible given that fewer people will engage with the news on a Sunday and things will have died down as people consume news on a Monday. If they wanted to create a splash, then it should have been Thursday morning - get as much coverage as possible during the day with weekend reflection on their plans.

*Already by Monday morning before 9am, the Conservative Manifesto is not one of the 13 stories at the top section of the BBC news.*

As @Doon frae Troon has pointed out, even if you thought they could deliver 50,000 more nurses, and other socially motivated policies, do you really believe they want to - especially if they happen to win a big majority and can avoid (parliamentary) scrutiny (at least)?

we will see a bump in the polls following the QT event on Friday evening. But it seems Labour have it all to do.
		
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Maybe thats because its not stupidly unaffordable and designed to wreck the country.[/QUOTE]


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## harpo_72 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you look into it yourself and tell us,

On second thoughts!
		
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Probably because you need to do the journey ... you can tell people the answer but they donâ€™t believe. But if you make them experience it they learn more .. management my friend be supportive and hold a few hands but let them make their own decisions ðŸ¤£.. I know itâ€™s a pain in the butt if you need to get stuff done!


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any Tory supporters on here believe the Johnson/Gove Government will deliver 40 new hospitals or 50,000 new NHS nurses.
If so I would like some facts on how this will be achieved.
Just simple answers please no deflection.
		
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just add those to all the other Tory pledges they didn't even attemp to carry out..... say what you like to win votes.... as always


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Now we have the Conservative manifesto we'll see if this actually makes a difference.

It seems a document fairly lacking in ambition and very much with the intention of 'don't mess this up, lets just nurse things over the line for the next couple of weeks'.

1st of all - a Sunday afternoon launch. Aimed very much at keeping as low profile as possible given that fewer people will engage with the news on a Sunday and things will have died down as people consume news on a Monday. If they wanted to create a splash, then it should have been Thursday morning - get as much coverage as possible during the day with weekend reflection on their plans.

Already by Monday morning before 9am, the Conservative Manifesto is not one of the 13 stories at the top section of the BBC news.

As @Doon frae Troon has pointed out, even if you thought they could deliver 50,000 more nurses, and other socially motivated policies, do you really believe they want to - especially if they happen to win a big majority and can avoid (parliamentary) scrutiny (at least)?

Potentially we will see a bump in the polls following the QT event on Friday evening. But it seems Labour have it all to do.
		
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The less you promise, the less you have to justify and answer for.
boris has 1 priority and that is brexit, if he wins on that then afterwards he can say or do what he wants as heâ€™ll have the perfect excuses, ie, success - he told us brexit needed to be done, disaster - not his fault, HoC delaying brexit by 3 years caused it.
Win, win for boris.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The less you promise, the less you have to justify and answer for.
boris has 1 priority and that is brexit, if he wins on that then afterwards he can say or do what he wants as heâ€™ll have the perfect excuses, ie, success - he told us brexit needed to be done, disaster - not his fault, HoC delaying brexit by 3 years caused it.
Win, win for boris.
		
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not to mention blaming the HOC for delaying brexit when it was mostly Conservative MP's who didn't vote for TM deal...some of those even in his cabinet... you couldn't make it up.... well some things you can


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Now we have the Conservative manifesto we'll see if this actually makes a difference.

It seems a document fairly lacking in ambition and very much with the intention of 'don't mess this up, lets just nurse things over the line for the next couple of weeks'.

1st of all - a Sunday afternoon launch. Aimed very much at keeping as low profile as possible given that fewer people will engage with the news on a Sunday and things will have died down as people consume news on a Monday. If they wanted to create a splash, then it should have been Thursday morning - get as much coverage as possible during the day with weekend reflection on their plans.

Already by Monday morning before 9am, the Conservative Manifesto is not one of the 13 stories at the top section of the BBC news.

As @Doon frae Troon has pointed out, even if you thought they could deliver 50,000 more nurses, and other socially motivated policies, do you really believe they want to - especially if they happen to win a big majority and can avoid (parliamentary) scrutiny (at least)?

Potentially we will see a bump in the polls following the QT event on Friday evening. But it seems Labour have it all to do.
		
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Not dissimilar to the last 2 Tory manifestos. Maybe its about affordability, or maybe its lets not put too much out there to be shot at.

40 new hospitals; it won't happen without more PFI's, and that's been proven as too painful.

50,000 new nurses; again, a big number that would be horrendously expensive on top of 40 new hospitals. I remember Tony Blair promising something similar, and almost achieving it. The detail behind it was a number of job share posts on top of very few new nurses. Job share = same cost but 2 nurses instead of 1 = con.

Its as much a fairy story as Labour's manifesto. Do we now get to argue about who's the biggest liar, even though both are liars? Where's the merit in supporting the 2nd biggest liar, whoever that may be?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 25, 2019)

The fact that the Tories are using Nicky Morgan to front their policies on Radio and TV, someone who is not even standing as a MP in this election, and are hiding the leader of the House of Commons so the electorate see as little as him as possible so he does not remind anyone what type of person gets on in the Tory Party nowadays, is nothing to worry about. #factcheck


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

I've had look and I think its quite a sensible plan under the current conditions of domestic UK turmoil, German/French/RoEU squabbles and the 'trade' conflicts in RoW.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 25, 2019)

If Diane Abbott had of done this several members of this forum would have blown a gasket.  But it's been done by a Tory so all is OK #factcheck


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198878418705760256


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## harpo_72 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If Diane Abbott had of done this several members of this forum would have blown a gasket.  But it's been done by a Tory so all is OK #factcheck


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198878418705760256

Click to expand...

Low investment in education and the dumbing down of mathematics are responsible, but it was all retrieved with a great quote from the Odyssey


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I've had look and I think its quite a sensible plan under the current conditions of domestic UK turmoil, German/French/RoEU squabbles and the 'trade' conflicts in RoW.
		
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Itâ€™s certainly cautious, whether itâ€™s sensible is more debatable, thereâ€™s not a great deal to be optimistic about.

More realistic than Labours, but get a feeling itâ€™ll be similar to the last 9 years and cuts will come in areas not mentioned.

Edit: See the Nicky Morgan interview above for example. Donâ€™t think weâ€™ll be seeing much more of her.


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## jp5 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If Diane Abbott had of done this several members of this forum would have blown a gasket.  But it's been done by a Tory so all is OK #factcheck


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198878418705760256

Click to expand...

Oh dear.... worse than Abacus Abbott!


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If Diane Abbott had of done this several members of this forum would have blown a gasket.  But it's been done by a Tory so all is OK #factcheck


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198878418705760256

Click to expand...

There was a recent Education Minister who flat out refused to answer any spelling or maths questions on air as they are just designed to catch them out. The interviewer got quite exasperated but I quite admired the person for telling them to shove it. Ask me questions about policy but I wont do cheap tricks was the gist of it. I am surprised others don't follow and just blanket refuse to answer them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Four months ago Johnson has a plan for Social Care.  What's happened to it?  Was it going to be a bit too expensive or summit.

Cunning Plan of the Tories - state everything as loosely and uncommitted as possible - making it almost impossible to actually cost, to decide whether it's going to be achievable.  And so one of the very obvious pledges.  The 40 hospitals.  How much is it going to cost to build the 40 hospitals.  Not the cost of the 6 plus the seed money for the other 34 - what will be the cost (approximate will do) of the 40.  And over what time period for them to get built and staffed.  Will the 50,000 new nurses (well they are not all new are they and they have no guaranteed way of getting from 30,000 to 50,000 do they? - but put that aside) cover the staffing of these hospitals?

Now the answers to the above two questions might have been given - and I may have just missed it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was a recent Education Minister who flat out refused to answer any spelling or maths questions on air as they are just designed to catch them out. The interviewer got quite exasperated but I quite admired the person for telling them to shove it. Ask me questions about policy but I wont do cheap tricks was the gist of it. I am surprised others don't follow and just blanket refuse to answer them.
		
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Surely any politicians should be able to answer questions on details.
Doing it your way would mean interviewers accepting Labours spending plans and not quizzing them, that would be disastrous.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For those worried about our National Security the tories have dropped their promise to not cutting the Armed Forces from the current manifesto.
It was in the 2017 Manifesto.
		
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Taking the Tory approach to the Labour Party 2017 manifesto, and the roll-up of it plus all pledges between then and now, on top of the 2019 manifesto - then is it fair to deduce that unless the Tories have specifically *excluded* that from their current manifesto then it is still a manifesto pledge?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Certainly looks like boris lied again yesterday when he announced 50,000 more Nurses for the NHS.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Low investment in education and the dumbing down of mathematics are responsible, but it was all retrieved with a great quote from the Odyssey 

Click to expand...

Hilarious......â€¦.love they way she and the other Tory liars say 'we are very clear about this'.
Yes Nicky and we are very clear you are trying to feed us total bullpoo,
She makes Abbott look like Turing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Certainly looks like boris lied again yesterday when he announced 50,000 more Nurses for the NHS.

Click to expand...

...and his pledge to get a new trade deal agreed with the EU in 2020 without the need for any extension simply smacks of the same sort of 'pledge' he gave to the country to leave the EU on 31st October - so just anther pledge that he does not have full control of.   All he can guarantee on that front is that there will be no extension beyond end-2020 with an agreed deal or no deal agreed - because with a majority he will be able to choose to not request an extension - and that's it.  He can't guarantee anything in respect of a deal.


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Four months ago Johnson has a plan for Social Care.  What's happened to it?  Was it going to be a bit too expensive or summit.

Cunning Plan of the Tories - state everything as loosely and uncommitted as possible - making it almost impossible to actually cost, to decide whether it's going to be achievable.  And so one of the very obvious pledges.  The 40 hospitals.  How much is it going to cost to build the 40 hospitals.  Not the cost of the 6 plus the seed money for the other 34 - what will be the cost (approximate will do) of the 40.  And over what time period for them to get built and staffed.  Will the 50,000 new nurses (well they are not all new are they and they have no guaranteed way of getting from 30,000 to 50,000 do they? - but put that aside) cover the staffing of these hospitals?

Now the answers to the above two questions might have been given - and I may have just missed it.
		
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Royal Liverpool Hospital was supposed to cost Â£331m. There's another Â£140m added to that since Carillion's collapse. Bearing in mind RLH & Broadgreen wasn't a full build, call it Â£500m. Multiply that by 40. That's not a money tree required, its a money forest!

For all the perceived perception that the Tories manifesto is sensible, is it really?


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Certainly looks like boris lied again yesterday when he announced 50,000 more Nurses for the NHS.

Click to expand...

should be easy for them to achieve asp as there 35,000 nursing vacancies in English health trusts alone at the moment

or maybe just sack 50,000 nurses and re hire them the next day job done


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

Isn't the simple answer to that question..."we will increase the number of nurses in the NHS by 50000. As part of that we need to retain those 19000 nurses already working in the NHS. If we recruit 50000 more nurses but those 19000 leave then we have only increased the total number by 31000".


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and his pledge to get a new trade deal agreed with the EU in 2020 without the need for any extension simply smacks of the same sort of 'pledge' he gave to the country to leave the EU on 31st October - so just anther pledge that he does not have full control of.   All he can guarantee on that front is that there will be no extension beyond end-2020 with an agreed deal or no deal agreed - because with a majority he will be able to choose to not request an extension - and that's it.  He can't guarantee anything in respect of a deal.
		
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don't worry he will just blame others for stoping him .... "getting it done"


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## Grant85 (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The less you promise, the less you have to justify and answer for.
boris has 1 priority and that is brexit, if he wins on that then afterwards he can say or do what he wants as heâ€™ll have the perfect excuses, ie, success - he told us brexit needed to be done, disaster - not his fault, HoC delaying brexit by 3 years caused it.
Win, win for boris.
		
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I don't disagree with the logic, but the issue is that the rest of the world keeps moving. There has to be some kind of domestic policy on pension, housing, transport, education etc. They've only been dragged into making commitments on health as it is basically the only thing Labour want to talk about. 

If they don't have the policies in their manifesto and they win a majority... what is that a mandate for? Absolutely nothing beyond Brexit and a few high profile spending commitments that will be tough to deliver. 

If the Tories get a majority (especially a decent one) I think this country will go backwards substantially over the next 5 years. Brexit is already shaping up to be a major issue with the next cliff edge in December 2020 and if they have a big majority, the Tories will do very little over the next term, except patting themselves on the back for getting rid of Corbyn and getting themselves into power for the next 5 years. We will see that the Tories don't actually care about what they do in Government, they just care about being there.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Royal Liverpool Hospital was supposed to cost Â£331m. There's another Â£140m added to that since Carillion's collapse. Bearing in mind RLH & Broadgreen wasn't a full build, call it Â£500m. Multiply that by 40. That's not a money tree required, its a money forest!

For all the perceived perception that the Tories manifesto is sensible, is it really?
		
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It's fine. Nicky Morgan has done the calculations and worked out that it won't cost anything because included in the 40 additional hospitals will be 40 existing hospitals.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Certainly looks like boris lied again yesterday when he announced 50,000 more Nurses for the NHS.

Click to expand...

If my Mrs is at all typical of nurses having left the NHS - to progress a career in another sector; retired or about to retire (and across her friends of same age she is) you'd have to pay her an awful lot of money to go back in to the NHS.  Mind you - there are loads of WASPIs out there looking for an income...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			don't worry he will just blame others for stoping him .... "getting it done"

Click to expand...

except with a majority he will have no-one to blame as all he is doing is negotiating a deal - and as every ful kno it takes two to tango and David Davies (remember him?) has already told us that the EU are tough negotiators - so Johnson KNOWS that the complex deal he needs to agree may be difficult to agree in his timescales.

And so I ask for the Top Level Plan.  Starting with the timescales to the end of 2020.  When is the last date the UK will realistically be able to request an extension if we want one.  When do we need to get the framework of the agreement established.  When do we need to get key elements of the agreement done by.  How will parliament and the public know how well things are  gong - whether the UK is on track to have a deal agreed by the end of 2020.  And so on and so forth.

Ah - yes.  Of course all of that is secret.  Let's not give away our key negotiating cards.  How naive of me for asking.  Except we already have revealed our end point and key negotiating card - we'll be fully out by end 2020.  The EU knows this and so if Johnson and the rest of his Conservative and Brexit Party actually want a deal - the EU are actually more in control of the negotiations than we might want given our walk-away No Deal position might not be that great.  

One day in the next few months Javid is going to have to tell us what No Deal will actually mean if it looks like an agreed deal is not going to be possible in 2020 and Johnson will be dead in a ditch before requesting a transition extension.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I don't disagree with the logic, but the issue is that the rest of the world keeps moving. There has to be some kind of domestic policy on pension, housing, transport, education etc. They've only been dragged into making commitments on health as it is basically the only thing Labour want to talk about.

If they don't have the policies in their manifesto and they win a majority... what is that a mandate for? Absolutely nothing beyond Brexit and a few high profile spending commitments that will be tough to deliver.

If the Tories get a majority (especially a decent one) I think this country will go backwards substantially over the next 5 years. Brexit is already shaping up to be a major issue with the next cliff edge in December 2020 and if they have a big majority, the Tories will do very little over the next term, except patting themselves on the back for getting rid of Corbyn and getting themselves into power for the next 5 years. We will see that the Tories don't actually care about what they do in Government, they just care about being there.
		
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I like it - if it's not in manifesto there is therefore no mandate for it


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## Grant85 (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If my Mrs is at all typical of nurses having left the NHS - to progress a career in another sector; retired or about to retire (and across her friends of same age she is) you'd have to pay her an awful lot of money to go back in to the NHS.  Mind you - there are loads of WASPIs out there looking for an income...?
		
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I think this is a big issue in terms of attracting or keeping people in the profession. Time was it used to be a great second income for a house if one partner was a teacher or a nurse (obviously it was usually the wife, but clearly no reason that it wouldn't be the husband). Could generally work around childcare and salary was good in the context of cost of living etc. 

Now though things have moved on. People work flexibly, most working families balance child care around nursery and retired baby boomer grandparents and of course many households will have 2 parents that are professionals as opposed to working in vocational areas - such as nursing and teaching. 

Ultimately being a teacher or a nurse at Â£35,000 or so is now no longer a great salary and I'm sure doesn't attract anything like the number of young people it once did. And sadly is certainly not going to attract many high achievers into these roles.

Basically the only solution to this is pay nurses & teachers a much higher salary and ensure that current staff and new entrants fulfil high standards. 

My wife is a nurse and you might be surprised to learn that the biggest dent in morale is not pay or hospital buildings, it is colleagues phoning in sick and long term sickness. So as I said, raise the salary and raise the standards and those who think it's an easy 'job for life' can move on and they will find it much easier to retain and recruit staff by offering proper salaries.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

and the staffin


ColchesterFC said:



			It's fine. Nicky Morgan has done the calculations and worked out that it won't cost anything because included in the 40 additional hospitals will be 40 existing hospitals.
		
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...and the staffing to replace the 19,000 who leave these 40 existing hospitals will come about by persuading the 19,000 nurses to stay.

BTW - have they looked at the number of retired nurses they'd have to recruit to replace the experienced part of the 19,000 who leave.  Has anyone pointed out that a retired NHS nurse returning to work in the NHS and receiving a pension cannot earn more than they were earning when they retired?  My wife could have returned to work in the NHS but she could only have worked 2-3 days a week due to her NHS pension limiting what she could earn on returning.

And for those lifetime nurses who retire at 55-60 - knackered and disillusioned with the NHS - on an annual pension and with a lump sum that can be Â£75k-Â£100k and more...they are going to take some persuading.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely any politicians should be able to answer questions on details.
Doing it your way would mean interviewers accepting Labours spending plans and not quizzing them, that would be disastrous.
		
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I'll fess up, I didn't play the piece until just now. I thought it was another one of those where they ask a politician to spell a trick word or answer a few mulitplication questions, I saw the headline 'Nicky Morgan has failed Year 1 maths' and made an assumption. Count me out of this one, scuttles away


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## USER1999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Sorry, but 35k is a decant wage, and way above the national average.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, but 35k is a decant wage, and way above the national average.
		
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It's also a secure job, pension etc. That is a very attractive wage imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think this is a big issue in terms of attracting or keeping people in the profession. Time was it used to be a great second income for a house if one partner was a teacher or a nurse (obviously it was usually the wife, but clearly no reason that it wouldn't be the husband). Could generally work around childcare and salary was good in the context of cost of living etc.

Now though things have moved on. People work flexibly, most working families balance child care around nursery and retired baby boomer grandparents and of course many households will have 2 parents that are professionals as opposed to working in vocational areas - such as nursing and teaching.

*Ultimately being a teacher or a nurse at Â£35,000 or so is now no longer a great salary and I'm sure doesn't attract anything like the number of young people it once did. And sadly is certainly not going to attract many high achievers into these roles.*

Basically the only solution to this is pay nurses & teachers a much higher salary and ensure that current staff and new entrants fulfil high standards.

My wife is a nurse and you might be surprised to learn that the biggest dent in morale is not pay or hospital buildings, *it is colleagues phoning in sick and long term sickness. *So as I said, raise the salary and raise the standards and those who think it's an easy 'job for life*' *can move on and they will find it much easier to retain and recruit staff by offering proper salaries.
		
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My daughter is 24.  She graduated with a degree a couple of years back.  Most of her school friends went to university.  None of her dozen close university friends are going into nursing and only one is in teaching.  Of her dozen school friends - only one has gone into nursing.  When my wife went into nursing in the late 70s it was an attractive career option and many girls went into it.  No longer.  

And I for one am not surprised my your wife's experience.  Indeed it was largely issues with staff and staffing that caused her to finish completely.  When in remission after her cancer treatment she went back to work for a year but could not stand it.   She has one ex-colleague who took over my wife's responsibilities who is in tears every day in the week leading up to a clinic that my wife used to run - it's not difficult - the ex-colleague is just useless.  And the same colleague regularly goes off sick through stress - with no notice given whatsoever - often being told to go home - because she cannot cope with the job - yet the manager does not seem able to get anything done.  And yes - long term sickness - the team has to struggle along short staffed as they can't afford to get temporary replacement.

My wife looks back in some horror, dismay and not a small amount of anger


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and the staffin

...and the staffing to replace the 19,000 who leave these 40 existing hospitals will come about by persuading the 19,000 nurses to stay.

BTW - have they looked at the number of retired nurses they'd have to recruit to replace the experienced part of the 19,000 who leave.  Has anyone pointed out that a retired NHS nurse returning to work in the NHS and receiving a pension cannot earn more than they were earning when they retired?  My wife could have returned to work in the NHS but she could only have worked 2-3 days a week due to her NHS pension limiting what she could earn on returning.

And for those lifetime nurses who retire at 55-60 - knackered and disillusioned with the NHS - on an annual pension and with a lump sum that can be Â£75k-Â£100k and more...they are going to take some persuading.
		
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One of our good friends has just put her papers in to trigger her pension and retire. Salary is an issue but the conditions they are working under are appalling, and dangerous. Dangerous for the patients and dangerous for the staff. Strong words? I'm sure you and Grant85 could share anecdotal evidence of just how bad it is but, perhaps, shouldn't. Whatever people may have read or heard in the media, the detail is worse.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's also a secure job, pension etc. That is a very attractive wage imo.
		
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it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost *always*) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			One of our good friends has just put her papers in to trigger her pension and retire. Salary is an issue but the conditions they are working under are appalling, and dangerous. Dangerous for the patients and dangerous for the staff. Strong words? I'm sure you and Grant85 could share anecdotal evidence of just how bad it is but, perhaps, shouldn't. Whatever people may have read or heard in the media, the detail is worse.
		
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Yes - you are quite right.  The anecdotal evidence that Grant85 and I could share is not for sharing - but he will I am sure be able to confirm the frustration and sometimes anger that our wives share with us on their return home - with my wife this was daily.  And in the group of nurses that my wife training and worked with back in the 70s and early 80s and that she keeps in touch with - their experience is identical.

Meanwhile in my wife's new job in a charity she has a colleague who works part-time in the charity and part-time in the NHS.  Her husband tells her that he knows when she has been doing an NHS day by the way she is when she gets home.


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The less you promise, the less you have to justify and answer for.
boris has 1 priority and that is brexit, if he wins on that then afterwards he can say or do what he wants as heâ€™ll have the perfect excuses, ie, success - he told us brexit needed to be done, disaster - not his fault, HoC delaying brexit by 3 years caused it.
Win, win for boris.
		
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I fully expect him to get a working majority - and actually hope so for the sake of the UK. Any other result appears to go against my view that the Referendum should not be 're-run until the correct result is achieved'! I do have a little sympathy for Labour's approach (establish the 'deal' and then vote out/in based on that), but believe it's a cop-out for 'repeat referendum by back door' and am against too many of their other policies, even though they'd probably be a benefit for me.

Alas, that also grates severely with my attitude of Boris as a 'leader'! To me, he's simply a shallow bully who is prepared to spout whatever is needed (including lying) to get whatever message he believes is needed across. The BBC fact checking demonstrated this on a number of his claims!

Corbyn, on the other hand, appears to be unelectable! And his plans would, imo, set UK back decades!


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely any politicians should be able to answer questions on details.
Doing it your way would mean interviewers accepting Labours spending plans and not quizzing them, that would be disastrous.
		
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I expect politicians to set policy, structures etc just like I expect from senior management: its not necessary for them to be into all the fine detail - that's what we pay 'experts' for. There's always going to be some finer point that anyone can find/raise to catch some-one out. Journalistic game playing designed solely with the intention to make interviewee look small and themselves look good - waste of time IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Indeed - and by not stating anything specific in respect of Social Care and any cap of individual contribution - then that can't be costed...


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost *always*) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
		
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I don't underestimate the worth of good nurses, the stresses etc but Â£35k is a good salary. The counter to that is what are the alternate jobs that the thousands of nurses could do otherwise at the same salary, same security?


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## Wolf (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:
			
		


			it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost *always*) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
		
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A band 6 nurse with 6-7 years experience will be earning Â£33, 779 a year in the new tax year and that's not a good salary really.. As for the point of expectation, hours worked, no breaks and working conditions it really make me wonder what some people consider to be a poor wage because trust me that really is a decent wage in a job with prospects, in a relatively comfortable environment. I'm not saying it's not stressful and not hard graft but that's not a pittance and not a salary that would make life a struggle.

Compare it to other services like the Army as an example the comparable level of promotion with the same years working is a salary of Â£25,625. I'd argue the job they do is in many instances more stressful, worse working conditions, 12hr + shifts are more like 3month + tours of duty without a day off or going home to your family to complain about the conditions.

Whilst I am not posting this to undermine the value of the NHS at all and what they do  I'd also argue with anyone saying earning 34k  is a poor wage with poor conditions, when the national average for other services and all wages is far lower and worse off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

did And still we get government ministers and various spouting the line _Tories will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have Two Referendums_

Putting aside that Brexit will most very likely NOT be fully done in 2020 (after all recall that Brexit was *always *defined as a two phase process - leave and re-engage); what did Corbyn say about a next Scottish referendum?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-corbyn-sturgeon-two-years-a9214516.html

Not for at least two years is what he said.  Yet the _Conservative and Brexit _Party (_Brexit _seeming to have replaced _Unionist _as a priority for the Tory Party) continue to peddle the line that under Labour there WILL be two referendum next year.

They further dissemble by directing it at the UK electorate when they UK electorate will NEVER be subject to an IndeyRef2.  But the Brendas from Brizzle will be moaning - _Not another TWO_.  Don't worry Brenda - they are spinning you one.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because you need to do the journey ... you can tell people the answer but they donâ€™t believe. But if you make them experience it they learn more .. management my friend be supportive and hold a few hands but let them make their own decisions ðŸ¤£.. I know itâ€™s a pain in the butt if you need to get stuff done!
		
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I have.better things to do than check out Doons ramblings.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't underestimate the worth of good nurses, the stresses etc but Â£35k is a good salary. The counter to that is what are the alternate jobs that the thousands of nurses could do otherwise at the same salary, same security?
		
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or - same salary, same stress?  Not that many. At the more senior experienced nurse level many would be paid a good deal more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			A band 6 nurse with 6-7 years experience will be earning Â£33, 779 a year in the new tax year and that's not a good salary really.. As for the point of expectation, hours worked, no breaks and working conditions it really make me wonder what some people consider to be a poor wage because trust me that really is a decent wage in a job with prospects, in a relatively comfortable environment. I'm not saying it's not stressful and not hard graft but that's not a pittance and not a salary that would make life a struggle.

Compare it to other services like the Army as an example the comparable level of promotion with the same years working is a salary of Â£25,625. I'd argue the job they do is in many instances more stressful, worse working conditions, 12hr + shifts are more like 3month + tours of duty without a day off or going home to your family to complain about the conditions.

Whilst I am not posting this to undermine the value of the NHS at all and what they do  I'd also argue with anyone saying earning 34k  is a poor wage with poor conditions, when the national average for other services and all wages is far lower and worse off.
		
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I'm not a fan of comparing one once cherished and valued sector of public service with another - when nowadays neither is particularly well served on that front.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think this is a big issue in terms of attracting or keeping people in the profession. Time was it used to be a great second income for a house if one partner was a teacher or a nurse (obviously it was usually the wife, but clearly no reason that it wouldn't be the husband). Could generally work around childcare and salary was good in the context of cost of living etc. 

Now though things have moved on. People work flexibly, most working families balance child care around nursery and retired baby boomer grandparents and of course many households will have 2 parents that are professionals as opposed to working in vocational areas - such as nursing and teaching. 

Ultimately being a teacher or a nurse at Â£35,000 or so is now no longer a great salary and I'm sure doesn't attract anything like the number of young people it once did. And sadly is certainly not going to attract many high achievers into these roles.

Basically the only solution to this is pay nurses & teachers a much higher salary and ensure that current staff and new entrants fulfil high standards. 

My wife is a nurse and you might be surprised to learn that the biggest dent in morale is not pay or hospital buildings, it is colleagues phoning in sick and long term sickness. So as I said, raise the salary and raise the standards and those who think it's an easy 'job for life' can move on and they will find it much easier to retain and recruit staff by offering proper salaries.
		
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There has always been high sickness rates in public services.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			did And still we get government ministers and various spouting the line _Tories will Get Brexit Done in 2020 and Labour will have Two Referendums_

Putting aside that Brexit will most very likely NOT be fully done in 2020 (after all recall that Brexit was *always *defined as a two phase process - leave and re-engage); what did Corbyn say about a next Scottish referendum?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-corbyn-sturgeon-two-years-a9214516.html

Not for at least two years is what he said.  Yet the _Conservative and Brexit _Party (_Brexit _seeming to have replaced _Unionist _as a priority for the Tory Party) continue to peddle the line that under Labour there WILL be two referendum next year.

They further dissemble by directing it at the UK electorate when they UK electorate will NEVER be subject to an IndeyRef2.  But the Brendas from Brizzle will be moaning - _Not another TWO_.  Don't worry Brenda - they are spinning you one.
		
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I suspect that if Jeremy Corbyn gets a sniff of being able to get the keys to Downing Street he might be persuaded to agree a 2nd Scottish referendum if he needs SNP support to give him the numbers.

It's a bit like the Labour claim that the Tories will sell off the NHS. Both sides are trying to put out negative stories, that have little or no evidence to support them, about the other in the hope that enough people will believe it and vote the way they want them to vote.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			or - same salary, same stress?  Not that many. At the more senior experienced nurse level many would be paid a good deal more.
		
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Doing what, in the numbers that nurses are? I remember knowing many teachers and having this conversation. They seem to think that the world was waiting with open arms with well paid jobs. Most stayed as teachers as reality was very different.


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## Wolf (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not a fan of comparing one once cherished and valued sector of public service with another - when nowadays neither is particularly well served on that front.
		
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That sums up the whole point I'm getting at and as a response is politician style cop out because your happy to state someone earning 34k is underpaid and under valued as it meets with your agenda but not being a fan of comparing or perhaps being willing to compare it to something similar in that it's working effectively for the people on behalf of a government that sets the pay scales for them both with a much lower rate of pay and far worse working conditions shows your not looking at in a balanced way but looking at it with blinkers on that only suits your part.

Politicians should be making these comparisons across all those sectors and bringing them all in line.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			it's too secure for some...

And it's not a particularly good wage for an experienced and well-educated nurse - working long hours (12+ hour days being common - and often actually planned shifts) - with no breaks and often (EDIT - almost *always*) a very high level of patient stress and expectation.
		
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Many of the nurses that I have chatted to over the last few years choose to work 12 hour days but only work 3 days a week.
They find the 3 days on tough but well worth it for the 4 days off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I suspect that if Jeremy Corbyn gets a sniff of being able to get the keys to Downing Street he might be persuaded to agree a 2nd Scottish referendum if he needs SNP support to give him the numbers.

It's a bit like the Labour claim that the Tories will sell off the NHS. Both sides are trying to put out negative stories, that have little or no evidence to support them, about the other in the hope that enough people will believe it and vote the way they want them to vote.
		
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That may or may not be true - but it is *not* Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives.  And unfortunately it *is *a lie.

It would *not *be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK.  Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There has always been high sickness rates in public services.
		
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And managers are so poor they don't deal with it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may or may not be true - but it is *not* Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives.  And unfortunately it *is *a lie.

It would *not *be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK.  Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.
		
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And therefore must be a lie being spread by the leader of the SNP. Strange how your posts are so one sided or don't you listen to what the SNP leader has been saying.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

Nae surprise there then.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...andidates-down-south-poll-finds-10168265.html


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nae surprise there then.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...andidates-down-south-poll-finds-10168265.html

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SNP not as popular as UKIP then


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may or may not be true - but it is *not* Labour Party Policy - it is simply a lie being spun by the Conservatives.  And unfortunately it *is *a lie.

It would *not *be a lie, but would still be a deceit if Labour Party policy was for there to be IndyRef2 next year - it would be a deceit as the implication is two referendum for all of UK.  Of course it is the sound-bite that matters rather than the fact.
		
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Selling the NHS is not a Tory party policy so by your definition that must be a lie being spun by the Labour party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Selling the NHS is not a Tory party policy so by your definition that must be a lie being spun by the Labour party.
		
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Yes - unless there is evidence that indicates that the Tory Party is currently planning to sell off some NHS services and has been comfortable selling off services in the past.  The main concern that I have is that serious underfunding will lead to failing services and at that point the government can makes a case for privatisation being the only remaining solution to improving provision of a failing service. 

And the big issue for me is going to be staffing - current staffing issues exacerbated by Brexit and the immigration controls that the government will feel obliged to implement - and EU27 NHS staff deciding they've had enough and heading home.   Privatisation of front-line NHS services will only result in higher cost and poorer service...and as a result the demand for Private Health Cover will increase - and folks will be shocked when they find out the cost especially for existing conditions - and a two tier service will result.  I fear.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - unless there is evidence that indicates that the Tory Party is currently planning to sell off some NHS services and has been comfortable selling off services in the past.  The main concern that I have is that serious underfunding will lead to failing services and at that point the government can makes a case for privatisation being the only remaining solution to improving provision of a failing service.

And the big issue for me is going to be staffing - current staffing issues exacerbated by Brexit and the immigration controls that the government will feel obliged to implement - and EU27 NHS staff deciding they've had enough and heading home.   Privatisation of front-line NHS services will only result in higher cost and poorer service...and as a result the demand for Private Health Cover will increase - and folks will be shocked when they find out the cost especially for existing conditions - and a two tier service will result.  I fear.
		
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Perhaps you can show some evidence instead of making claims.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And therefore must be a lie being spread by the leader of the SNP. Strange how your posts are so one sided or don't you listen to what the SNP leader has been saying.
		
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I heard exactly what Sturgeon said about what she thought Corbyn would do to get the SNP support.  She didn't lie.  She said that she felt very confident that Corbyn would accede to an SNP request for a referendum as a quid pro quo (oh God no...) for her support.  Even then I am not sure that her demand would be for a 2020 IndyRef2. Indeed it might suit her better for IndyRef2 to happen in 2021 following a further Tory Brexitbacle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps you can show some evidence instead of making claims.
		
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I said - *unless *_there is evidence_

I was clear - I did not say that there is evidence and made no claims that any existed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I expect politicians to set policy, structures etc just like I expect from senior management: its not necessary for them to be into all the fine detail - that's what we pay 'experts' for. There's always going to be some finer point that anyone can find/raise to catch some-one out. Journalistic game playing designed solely with the intention to make interviewee look small and themselves look good - waste of time IMO.
		
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Were did I say â€œfineâ€ detail, my reply was in response to Nicky Morgan being sent out to defend the tory manifesto and in particular the 50,000 more Nurses promised by boris.
Itâ€™s a big detail and I would expect any journalist to question it to any party.
This really wasnâ€™t a â€œin the weeds questionâ€ or as per my first point, are journalists supposed to believe everything politicians say and not question so to prevent themselves looking good.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard exactly what Sturgeon said about what she thought Corbyn would do to get the SNP support.  She didn't lie.  She said that she felt very confident that Corbyn would accede to an SNP request for a referendum as a quid pro quo (oh God no...) for her support.  Even then I am not sure that her demand would be for a 2020 IndyRef2. Indeed it might suit her better for IndyRef2 to happen in 2021 following a further Tory Brexitbacle.
		
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Your two points are contradictory. The Tories have said no to another referendum. The only way there can be a "Tory Brexitbacle", as you choose to call it, is if the Tories win the election. In which case the SNP won't be supporting a Labour government.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

So far in this election in Scotland the only real opposition to the SNP appears to be BBC Scotland.


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's also a secure job, pension etc. That is a very attractive wage imo.
		
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An example of how good the wage is; imagine you go in at 7:30am for an 8:30 start to the theatre list. You are expected to have the recovery room prepped and ready for the first case out of theatre. What happens if the first person into the induction room(pre-op) has a reaction or is too ill or panics or or or... Your first patient appears in recovery at 8:30am. You don't start at 8:30am if the recovery room has to be ready for 8:30am.

The last patient, or a few patients through the day, turns out more complicated than expected, and doubly so if it continues when they come through to recovery. Your 6pm finish could run through till 2am. Do you get paid for the time between 6pm and 2am? Depends on what contract you're on. I do know of one Trust that will pay you time and half for those extra 8 hours. Sounds good? You don't come in till 4pm the next day, and get paid diddly for the hours you don't come in.

For the 8 hours normal working time you get paid as normal. For the subsequent 8 hours you get paid at single rate. But for the 8 hours you don't turn in you get zero... Single rate for out of hours working? Really? Not great is it. But whats even worse, if your line manager says that you need to come in, which usually happens, the 8 hours is taken off your annual leave allowance.

Govt after govt has ruined the NHS, and I don't point the finger at any party. Worryingly, it will eventually mean that the NHS isn't working at all, and that's when it will finally gets sold off. It will be presented as a fait accompli/Hobson's choice. Hopefully attitudes and and priorities will change but if you want an NHS its getting close to the time when you all need to shout long and hard for it.


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely any politicians should be able to answer questions on details.
Doing it your way would mean interviewers accepting Labours spending plans and not quizzing them, that would be disastrous.
		
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There should be some knowledge of detail, but only some. Politicians are strategists, think Managing Directors, they don't do operational detail. Expecting a politician who might have been Minister for Education to be on point for detail in say Treasury, or whatever is not going to happen.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			An example of how good the wage is; imagine you go in at 7:30am for an 8:30 start to the theatre list. You are expected to have the recovery room prepped and ready for the first case out of theatre. What happens if the first person into the induction room(pre-op) has a reaction or is too ill or panics or or or... Your first patient appears in recovery at 8:30am. You don't start at 8:30am if the recovery room has to be ready for 8:30am.

The last patient, or a few patients through the day, turns out more complicated than expected, and doubly so if it continues when they come through to recovery. Your 6pm finish could run through till 2am. Do you get paid for the time between 6pm and 2am? Depends on what contract you're on. I do know of one Trust that will pay you time and half for those extra 8 hours. Sounds good? You don't come in till 4pm the next day, and get paid diddly for the hours you don't come in.

For the 8 hours normal working time you get paid as normal. For the subsequent 8 hours you get paid at single rate. But for the 8 hours you don't turn in you get zero... Single rate for out of hours working? Really? Not great is it. But whats even worse, if your line manager says that you need to come in, which usually happens, the 8 hours is taken off your annual leave allowance.

Govt after govt has ruined the NHS, and I don't point the finger at any party. Worryingly, it will eventually mean that the NHS isn't working at all, and that's when it will finally gets sold off. It will be presented as a fait accompli/Hobson's choice. Hopefully attitudes and and priorities will change but if you want an NHS its getting close to the time when you all need to shout long and hard for it.
		
Click to expand...

We are in danger of getting side tracked on this thread so I will not go longer than this post on the subject. At no point do I say nursing is perfect, or easy, a walk in the park etc. All jobs have their difficulties and I could pluck out other unfair situations to the one you quote in other lines of work, hell they could be on zero hours contracts with no holiday pay, sick pay, pensions, irregular hours etc. Stuff happens. The scenario you describe is not right, not your description of it by the way, just it should not be, but rubbish happens in many jobs.

Incidentally, I did a quick google and it suggest there are around 300k nurses, slightly more but amalgamating part time posts to make a full time one. What jobs are out there that they could move to with equivalant pay, conditions etc for the same skill levels? Obviously some can, I am not trying to slur nurses here, but 300k? I'd say for a good number of people it is still a sound career choice and* long may that continue*.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There should be some knowledge of detail, but only some. Politicians are strategists, think Managing Directors, they don't do operational detail. Expecting a politician who might have been Minister for Education to be on point for detail in say Treasury, or whatever is not going to happen.
		
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No itâ€™s not, I agree, and would be sympathetic if a Minister is sent to discuss Education and is asked questionâ€™s about Defence.
Nicky Morgan however, is doing the media briefings today on the Manifesto, not only was the clip on the 50,000 embarrassing, there is now confusion over when, she stated 50,000 in 10yrs, tory hq has come out out and said no, they mean in 5 years if elected.
Add to the fact sheâ€™s not even standing for re-election in the GE, whoâ€™ll answer the questions post GE or will it conveniently blamed on â€œher confusionâ€


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## Grant85 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There has always been high sickness rates in public services.
		
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I'd suggest that is because they have always had generous sick pay. I appreciate there isn't an easy answer. 

I've worked in businesses where people got 5 days sick pay per year... and some folk treated this like additional holidays. 'I've still got 2 sick days to take'.

It's unfair to single out staff who are genuinely unfortunate with poor health, but some people will always milk the opportunity if it's there. 6 months sick leave with pay... back for however many months it is to build up their entitlement again.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We are in danger of getting side tracked on this thread so I will not go longer than this post on the subject. At no point do I say nursing is perfect, or easy, a walk in the park etc. All jobs have their difficulties and I could pluck out other unfair situations to the one you quote in other lines of work, hell they could be on zero hours contracts with no holiday pay, sick pay, pensions, irregular hours etc. Stuff happens. The scenario you describe is not right, not your description of it by the way, just it should not be, but rubbish happens in many jobs.
		
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I agree.  There will always be examples of individual's receiving poor treatment among the huge number of NHS staff; it not right but there will be bad management in any big organisation. In today's business environment; with the collapse of the retail high street brought on by online competition and robotic/overseas low manufacturing costs Job Security is a major worry for many of those in the private sector.

Getting and paying a mortgage when the employee is relatively secure in the public sector is a lot more stress free than workers in the private sector; and lets face it the pensions (and pension security) and pay levels in the Police, Fire services, Military, NHS, Teaching etc are far from bad.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There has always been high sickness rates in public services.
		
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Agree and hope you find the following comment unbelievabl:

A friend of ours mother passed away, very sad, she was 96. Said NHS employee had 6 months off with pay. After exactly 6 months she returned to work as she had got over the loss! Pulling the wool.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Were did I say â€œfineâ€ detail, my reply was in response to Nicky Morgan being sent out to defend the tory manifesto and in particular the 50,000 more Nurses promised by boris.
Itâ€™s a big detail and I would expect any journalist to question it to any party.
This really wasnâ€™t a â€œin the weeds questionâ€ or as per my first point, are journalists supposed to believe everything politicians say and not question so to prevent themselves looking good.
		
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Not quite up to speed on BJs claims on 50,000 extra nurse. As much as we need them. Did he say how many will come from this country, i.e. how many of our kids will be trained up. or are we getting them from a broad which will mean another 50,000 house being bult, etc etc.


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Not quite up to speed on BJs claims on 50,000 extra nurse. As much as we need them. Did he say how many will come from this country, i.e. how many of our kids will be trained up. or are we getting them from a broad which will mean another 50,000 house being bult, etc etc.
		
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I'm sure that I either heard Boris say, or one if his ministers, that it would be a combination of home trained and foreign workers


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Agree and hope you find the following comment unbelievabl:

A friend of ours mother passed away, very sad, she was 96. Said NHS employee had 6 months off with pay. After exactly 6 months she returned to work as she had got over the loss! Pulling the wool.
		
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Missis T came home from work one saturday late and stressed out. One of her work mates had dropped off sick again who was supposedly taking her off. Irritable bowel she had. To cheer MissisT up, i took her out for an Indian. Guess who was in the same restaurant getting leathered and eating a lovely Balti. Yup Miss sick note. Missis T went out of her way to say ' Get well soon".


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that I either heard Boris say, or one if his ministers, that it would be a combination of home trained and foreign workers
		
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OH Dear.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Not quite up to speed on BJs claims on 50,000 extra nurse. As much as we need them. Did he say how many will come from this country, i.e. how many of our kids will be trained up. or are we getting them from a broad which will mean another 50,000 house being bult, etc etc.
		
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12,000 from overseas, 19,000 already nurses they hope to retain, 5,000 Students/apprenticeships, leaves 14,000 to be recruited.
Donâ€™t forget the NHS currently has 40,000 vacancies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Your two points are contradictory. The Tories have said no to another referendum. The only way there can be a "Tory Brexitbacle", as you choose to call it, is if the Tories win the election. In which case the SNP won't be supporting a Labour government.
		
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OK - that is true.  From the SNP point of view any Brexit bad and so always a Brexitbacle - the only difference is that it could be delivered under a Labour watch through a confirmatory referendum.  That doesn't take away from the whole thing being a Tory led debacle.

My point was - the Tory lie - two referendums in 2020 being Labour Party policy.  It's 100% not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Agree and hope you find the following comment unbelievabl:

A friend of ours mother passed away, very sad, she was 96. Said NHS employee had 6 months off with pay. After exactly 6 months she returned to work as she had got over the loss! Pulling the wool.
		
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Do you know the actual grounds for her being off work.  Loss of a parent can cause a complete breakdown...

I don't disagree with the general point in that there are many who swing the lead


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I agree.  There will always be examples of individual's receiving poor treatment among the huge number of NHS staff; it not right but there will be bad management in any big organisation. In today's business environment; with the collapse of the retail high street brought on by online competition and robotic/overseas low manufacturing costs Job Security is a major worry for many of those in the private sector.

Getting and paying a mortgage when the employee is relatively secure in the public sector is a lot more stress free than workers in the private sector; and lets face it the pensions (and pension security) and pay levels in the Police, Fire services, Military, NHS, Teaching etc are far from bad.
		
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I'd argue a little on the salaries. Its a good few years before they reach the average wage, especially in some areas within a hospital, and that's in the trained areas. Many ancillary staff also receive benefits to top up their wages. A public sector job needing DWP support? Thats not right. And the pension isn't anything like what it was. I was lucky to be on the old NHS pension scheme, even though I left for the private sector long ago. The pension scheme has changed twice since then, and not for the better. Many people assume that the NHS pension scheme is brilliant... it was.

As for saying its ok because other sectors are struggling too... isn't that a bit negative. Its ok for the NHS to struggle because the retail sector is too? Surely it should be about both sectors being treated well


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you know the actual grounds for her being off work.  Loss of a parent can cause a complete breakdown...

I don't disagree with the general point in that there are many who swing the lead
		
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I did not see the actual note. However she was always complaining and saying how fed up she was. Just to clarify she was NOT a nurse but on a reception desk and from memory earning  around Â£17,000 p.a. This was around 5 yearsâ€™ ago.

Think it was depression and she even managed for her employer to send her for counselling.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

So Labour has now promised another Â£56bn to address female inequality (I agree it needs progressively correcting) and a further Â£1bn for the Arts. This would be in addition to their Â£83bn spending and apart from the Â£56bn planned CAPEX. The resultant rise in UK debt over 5 years would be massive and unsupportable by any growth. Anyone who thinks this is sensible or sustainable is simply deluded. It would mean outspending the Tories by Â£5 on each Conservative Â£1 !!

Energy companies are reportedly already  looking to â€˜off-shoreâ€™ quickly in the event of a Labour win. Corporate swap prices are already pricing in the risk. None of the traditional â€˜smartâ€™ money is backing Labour. So you can bet the multi-nationals are watching closely.

Mr Corbyn wants to balance wealth inequality. Those at the â€™bottomâ€™ are unable to access credit and because the RoW doesnâ€™t accept the manifesto is possible at a technical level investor confidence will fall making inward investment stall: that will impact us all and impact many future generations very badly. If you bankrupt the nation by not having access to funds there will be no possibility of changing inequality and wealth distribution as those with (your pension fund included) and in-control of wealth will protect their interest by placing it elsewhere.

Itâ€™s just plain daft to even think Labour is supportableâ€¦

Better keep your fingers crossed.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point was - the Tory lie - two referendums in 2020 being Labour Party policy.  It's 100% not.
		
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And my point was - the Labour lie - that the Tories will sell off the NHS. You only have to watch Labour politicians leading and encouraging the chants of "Not for sale". Despite it having been denied repeatedly and there being no evidence to support it they are hoping that enough people believe it to swing the vote their way.

Politicians from all sides tell lies but for some reason you only want to focus on the Tory ones and use weasel words such as "deceit not a lie" to excuse lies from other parties.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*except with a majority he will have no-one to blame* as all he is doing is negotiating a deal - and as every ful kno it takes two to tango and David Davies (remember him?) has already told us that the EU are tough negotiators - so Johnson KNOWS that the complex deal he needs to agree may be difficult to agree in his timescales.

And so I ask for the Top Level Plan.  Starting with the timescales to the end of 2020.  When is the last date the UK will realistically be able to request an extension if we want one.  When do we need to get the framework of the agreement established.  When do we need to get key elements of the agreement done by.  How will parliament and the public know how well things are  gong - whether the UK is on track to have a deal agreed by the end of 2020.  And so on and so forth.

Ah - yes.  Of course all of that is secret.  Let's not give away our key negotiating cards.  How naive of me for asking.  Except we already have revealed our end point and key negotiating card - we'll be fully out by end 2020.  The EU knows this and so if Johnson and the rest of his Conservative and Brexit Party actually want a deal - the EU are actually more in control of the negotiations than we might want given our walk-away No Deal position might not be that great. 

One day in the next few months Javid is going to have to tell us what No Deal will actually mean if it looks like an agreed deal is not going to be possible in 2020 and Johnson will be dead in a ditch before requesting a transition extension.
		
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i wouldn't bank on it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Labour has now promised another Â£56bn to address female inequality (I agree it needs progressively correcting) and a further Â£1bn for the Arts. This would be in addition to their Â£83bn spending and apart from the Â£56bn planned CAPEX. The resultant rise in UK debt over 5 years would be massive and unsupportable by any growth. Anyone who thinks this is sensible or sustainable is simply deluded. It would mean outspending the Tories by Â£5 on each Conservative Â£1 !!

Energy companies are reportedly already  looking to â€˜off-shoreâ€™ quickly in the event of a Labour win. Corporate swap prices are already pricing in the risk. None of the traditional â€˜smartâ€™ money is backing Labour. So you can bet the multi-nationals are watching closely.

Mr Corbyn wants to balance wealth inequality. Those at the â€™bottomâ€™ are unable to access credit and because the RoW doesnâ€™t accept the manifesto is possible at a technical level investor confidence will fall making inward investment stall: that will impact us all and impact many future generations very badly. If you bankrupt the nation by not having access to funds there will be no possibility of changing inequality and wealth distribution as those with (your pension fund included) and in-control of wealth will protect their interest by placing it elsewhere.

Itâ€™s just plain daft to even think Labour is supportableâ€¦

*Better keep your fingers crossed.*

Click to expand...

For a Labour win.

Itâ€™s easily funded, theyâ€™re not repairing the potholes and Nicky Morgans running the account.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And my point was - the Labour lie - that the Tories will sell off the NHS. You only have to watch Labour politicians leading and encouraging the chants of "Not for sale". Despite it having been denied repeatedly and there being no evidence to support it they are hoping that enough people believe it to swing the vote their way.

Politicians from all sides tell lies but for some reason you only want to focus on the Tory ones and use weasel words such as "deceit not a lie" to excuse lies from other parties.
		
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i think the point is that Boris keeps saying, the NHS is not for sale... at bit like we will leave on 31st Oct, no border on the Irish sea.... new money etc etc


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

BBC News apologies for 'editing' out applause and laughter from Johnson 'trust' question.
The idiots cannot even get that right, it was only the laughter that they 'edited'.


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point was - the Tory lie - two referendums in 2020 being Labour Party policy.  It's 100% not.
		
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Are you sure?

The Tory view is that, depending on the GE result there could be a Brexit referendum and to garner support from the SNP, a referendum for them in 2020


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd argue a little on the salaries. Its a good few years before they reach the average wage, especially in some areas within a hospital, and that's in the trained areas. Many ancillary staff also receive benefits to top up their wages. A public sector job needing DWP support? Thats not right. And the pension isn't anything like what it was. I was lucky to be on the old NHS pension scheme, even though I left for the private sector long ago. The pension scheme has changed twice since then, and not for the better. Many people assume that the NHS pension scheme is brilliant... it was.

As for saying its ok because other sectors are struggling too... isn't that a bit negative. Its ok for the NHS to struggle because the retail sector is too?* Surely it should be about both sectors being treated well[*/QUOTE]

True of course but world trade/investment conditions impact us all and so my comments merely saying the NHS situation relative to 'others' ain't too bad.. We need the UK to be successful in order for everyone to stand a chance of improvement. Many, many people in other nations would envy the UK's position.
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think the point is that Boris keeps saying, the NHS is not for sale... at bit like we will leave on 31st Oct, no border on the Irish sea.... new money etc etc

Click to expand...

Get Brexit Done..â€¦...â€¦â€¦...... when everyone and their pets know that it will take 7 to 10 years to 'Get Brexit Done'.

Don't tell Cameron's 'swivel eyed loons' whatever you do or they will go into meltdown.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think the point is that Boris keeps saying, the NHS is not for sale... at bit like we will leave on 31st Oct, no border on the Irish sea.... new money etc etc

Click to expand...

Or Labour claims that their manifesto had been costed.

Both parties consistently mislead and bend the truth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And my point was - the Labour lie - that the Tories will sell off the NHS. You only have to watch Labour politicians leading and encouraging the chants of "Not for sale". Despite it having been denied repeatedly and there being no evidence to support it they are hoping that enough people believe it to swing the vote their way.

Politicians from all sides tell lies but for some reason you only want to focus on the Tory ones and use weasel words such as "deceit not a lie" to excuse lies from other parties.
		
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I called what Tories say about Labour planning two referendum for 2020 a lie - because it IS a lie.

I call Tory pledge to build 40 hospitals a deceit and not a lie - because they might well have plans to build 40 and indeed might end up building 40 hospitals - but at the moment they only have funds identified for 6.  If the studies carried out under the seed funding show some to too expensive or the funding just isn't available at that point then they might not get built.

And I said - Labour claims that Tories are planning to privatise the NHS is a lie - unless someone can show me evidence of Tory plans to do so. the

Tory manifesto pledge to recruit 50,000 nurses.  That's a deceit - as they cannot guarantee they will because they have no control over the size of part of the 19,000 they aim to re-employ or keep employed.

Johnson promising that UK will leave the EU on 31st October - that was a deceit.  He could not guarantee that, no matter how committed he might have been to doing so.  And the same applies to us leaving the EU with a deal agreed at the end of 2020.  He can't even guarantee that with an overall majority - it depends upon the EU.

And so on.  I have no problem calling out a lie for what it is as I am sick to the teeth of politicians treating us like fools, pretending that something will be when it won't; when it was when it wasn't.

I am exhausted by politics and am frankly struggling to maintain any interest whatsoever in the GE, as I take with a pinch of salt much of what I hear from any politician, and do not believe a SINGLE promise or pledge coming out of the mouth of ABdeP Johnson.  I can't say I don't believe a word he says because just very occasionally - as in his response on Waspi compensation - he is honest.  Just occasionally.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So far in this election in Scotland the only real opposition to the SNP appears to be BBC Scotland.

Click to expand...

what you mean the "British Broadcasting Conservatives"


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Or Labour claims that their manifesto had been costed.

Both parties consistently mislead and bend the truth.
		
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whos to say they havn't??


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what you mean the "British Broadcasting Conservatives"

Click to expand...

That is a bit unfair, BBC Scotland usually give equal billing to Labour.
Especially political editor Sarah, daughter of former leader Labour John Smith.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Or Labour claims that their manifesto had been costed.

Both parties consistently mislead and bend the truth.
		
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And in the context of a normal General Election this would be (almost) acceptable - as much promised would not be implemented and much can be reversed.  But this is no ordinary GE.  And Johnson will win.  And then we will see what happens.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Labour has now promised another Â£56bn to address female inequality (I agree it needs progressively correcting) and a further Â£1bn for the Arts. This would be in addition to their Â£83bn spending and apart from the Â£56bn planned CAPEX. The resultant rise in UK debt over 5 years would be massive and unsupportable by any growth. Anyone who thinks this is sensible or sustainable is simply deluded. It would mean outspending the Tories by Â£5 on each Conservative Â£1 !!

Energy companies are reportedly already  looking to â€˜off-shoreâ€™ quickly in the event of a Labour win. Corporate swap prices are already pricing in the risk. None of the traditional â€˜smartâ€™ money is backing Labour. So you can bet the multi-nationals are watching closely.

Mr Corbyn wants to balance wealth inequality. Those at the â€™bottomâ€™ are unable to access credit and because the RoW doesnâ€™t accept the manifesto is possible at a technical level investor confidence will fall making inward investment stall: that will impact us all and impact many future generations very badly. If you bankrupt the nation by not having access to funds there will be no possibility of changing inequality and wealth distribution as those with (your pension fund included) and in-control of wealth will protect their interest by placing it elsewhere.

Itâ€™s just plain daft to even think Labour is supportableâ€¦

Better keep your fingers crossed.
		
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Now for the serious reply.

Everything youâ€™ve said makes sense and, and, I tend to agree with you.

My issue is that none of the other parties have managed to sell me their vision.

If the tories get in I genuinely donâ€™t see much changing from the last 9 years and Iâ€™ve not once seen or heard boris or his party take any responsibility for the mess theyâ€™ve created. 
And before we get anyone asking what mess, Iâ€™ll just say Police and NHS (and potholes ) If it hasnâ€™t been bad why is boris putting so much emphasis on them.
Iâ€™m lucky in that my local Labour MP has been good for the area, veterans and myself, plus he voted against the whip for borisâ€™s deal.

What I canâ€™t help wondering is, would or could I accept Corbyn even if he only managed half of whatâ€™s in the Manifesto!

It may sound a bit dramatic, but Iâ€™m not sure weâ€™ll see much positivity at all in the next 5 years regardless of who wins.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a bit unfair, BBC Scotland usually give equal billing to Labour.
Especially political editor Sarah, daughter of former leader Labour John Smith.

Click to expand...

don't know what her Political leanings are but no doubting where Laura Kuenssberg-Johnson are


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			whos to say they havn't??
		
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The Labour Party


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The Labour Party
		
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so how are they lying then if they havent costed and say they havn't?


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What I canâ€™t help wondering is, would or could I accept Corbyn even if he only managed half of whatâ€™s in the Manifesto!

It may sound a bit dramatic, but Iâ€™m not sure weâ€™ll see much positivity at all in the next 5 years regardless of who wins.
		
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If Corbyn only does half of his manifesto promises he will still bankrupt the country. 

Much better to tread a steady path and be in a strong position especially if the EU countries go into recession


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If Corbyn only does half of his manifesto promises he will still bankrupt the country.

Much better to tread a steady path and be in a strong position especially if the EU countries go into recession
		
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I donâ€™t see the other manifestoâ€™s putting us in a strong position either though Chris, and what if the half he got right was to improve the economy also?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so how are they lying then if they havent costed and say they havn't?
		
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Initial claim that it was costed but then they  added WASPI pensions in with the statement that they would find the money. 

Where?


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t see the other manifestoâ€™s putting us in a strong position either though Chris, and what if the half he got right was to improve the economy also?
		
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I agree that the other manifesto's don't look like putting the UK in a strong position but is there any aspect of Labour's manifesto that puts the UK in a strong position. There's a lot in it that would improve the lot of the disadvantaged but would (probably) bankrupt the UK.

Perhaps the question should be which manifesto is the riskiest.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Initial claim that it was costed but then they  added WASPI pensions in with the statement that they would find the money.

Where?
		
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maybe John knows where the Tory's magic money tree is ??


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t see the other manifestoâ€™s putting us in a strong position either though Chris, and what if the half he got right was to improve the economy also?
		
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We're doing ok as a country and I reckon steady improvement is the answer. Corbyn imo will not do anything but bankrupt the country as Labour nearly did last time


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## Del_Boy (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - you are quite right.  The anecdotal evidence that Grant85 and I could share is not for sharing - but he will I am sure be able to confirm the frustration and sometimes anger that our wives share with us on their return home - with my wife this was daily.  And in the group of nurses that my wife training and worked with back in the 70s and early 80s and that she keeps in touch with - their experience is identical.

Meanwhile in my wife's new job in a charity she has a colleague who works part-time in the charity and part-time in the NHS.  Her husband tells her that he knows when she has been doing an NHS day by the way she is when she gets home.
		
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My wife used to work in the private sector and used to bang on everyday how crap her day was.  My response - darling you have 3 choices.  1 live with it. 2 Discuss with people who ho can do something about it ie your managers 3 Quit.

I believe the same options apply to those in the public sector


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			We're doing ok as a country and I reckon steady improvement is the answer. Corbyn imo will not do anything but bankrupt the country as Labour nearly did last time
		
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doing OK, you are Joking aren't you??


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			We're doing ok as a country and I reckon steady improvement is the answer. Corbyn imo will not do anything but bankrupt the country as Labour nearly did last time
		
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Ask the food bank queues, working poor, overworked NHS staff, zero hour staff [who want a steady job] etc if they are doing OK
You might be, but I doubt if that are.


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			doing OK, you are Joking aren't you??

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			Ask the food bank queues, working poor, overworked NHS staff, zero hour staff [who want a steady job] etc if they are doing OK
You might be, but I doubt if that are.
		
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Ok, doing better than the Mrs Krankie can manage - good luck when you're not propped up by a Tory government!


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## spongebob59 (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Ok, doing better than the Mrs Krankie can manage - good luck when you're not propped up by a Tory government!
		
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Looking forward to seeing her get the AN treatment tonight, let's see how they expect to fund the independent Scotland once the leave .


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## MegaSteve (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If Corbyn only does half of his manifesto promises he will still bankrupt the country.
		
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If Boris ever kept a single promise that would be a major miracle...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If Boris ever kept a single promise that would be a major miracle...
		
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And thats got what to do with the economy?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

Is this for real or a set up ?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199022123546791936


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If Boris ever kept a single promise that would be a major miracle...
		
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You can say that after about 125 days as Prime Minister?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Looking forward to seeing her get the AN treatment tonight, let's see how they expect to fund the independent Scotland once the leave .
		
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We will be fine, no need for you to worry so much about it.
Just think about Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, New Zealand etc etc they all seem to be doing OK even without as much natural resources as Scotland.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And thats got what to do with the economy?
		
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Thought this is a thread about the election...


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If Corbyn only does half of his manifesto promises he will still bankrupt the country.

Much better to tread a steady path and be in a strong position especially if the EU countries go into recession
		
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Yup: we need to keep our powder dry with testing international times ahead. In particular the Basel lll regulations are coming (2.6tn Euros exposure) so the Euro Banks will be put under considerable liquidity strain which will hit the poorer/vulnerable members hard and impact the EU's flexibility against debt and the trade 'wars' won't help. Macron and Merkel are already bitching between themselves on where support, if any, can be found if EU recession is to be avoided.

If Labour get in then we'll be cap in hand to anyone who will listen and then jack up the interest rate that will be passed on to anyone with a loan.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I called what Tories say about Labour planning two referendum for 2020 a lie - because it IS a lie.

I call Tory pledge to build 40 hospitals a deceit and not a lie - because they might well have plans to build 40 and indeed might end up building 40 hospitals - but at the moment they only have funds identified for 6.  If the studies carried out under the seed funding show some to too expensive or the funding just isn't available at that point then they might not get built.

And I said - Labour claims that Tories are planning to privatise the NHS is a lie - unless someone can show me evidence of Tory plans to do so. the

Tory manifesto pledge to recruit 50,000 nurses.  That's a deceit - as they cannot guarantee they will because they have no control over the size of part of the 19,000 they aim to re-employ or keep employed.

Johnson promising that UK will leave the EU on 31st October - that was a deceit.  He could not guarantee that, no matter how committed he might have been to doing so.  And the same applies to us leaving the EU with a deal agreed at the end of 2020.  He can't even guarantee that with an overall majority - it depends upon the EU.

And so on.  I have no problem calling out a lie for what it is as I am sick to the teeth of politicians treating us like fools, pretending that something will be when it won't; when it was when it wasn't.

I am exhausted by politics and am frankly struggling to maintain any interest whatsoever in the GE, as I take with a pinch of salt much of what I hear from any politician, and do not believe a SINGLE promise or pledge coming out of the mouth of ABdeP Johnson.  I can't say I don't believe a word he says because just very occasionally - as in his response on Waspi compensation - he is honest.  Just occasionally.
		
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I saw a film once called Witchfinder General.

I imagine he would have nothing on you if you became Liefinder General.ðŸ™„
No need to guess who would be first on the scaffoldðŸ¤”ðŸ˜€


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## Del_Boy (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ask the food bank queues, working poor, overworked NHS staff, zero hour staff [who want a steady job] etc if they are doing OK
You might be, but I doubt if that are.
		
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There will always be people believing they are doing ok and those that donâ€™t believe they are doing ok.  13 Dec will tell us wether this country is Ok being led by Boris or Corbyn


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Now for the serious reply.

Everything youâ€™ve said makes sense and, and, I tend to agree with you.

My issue is that none of the other parties have managed to sell me their vision.

If the tories get in I genuinely donâ€™t see much changing from the last 9 years and Iâ€™ve not once seen or heard boris or his party take any responsibility for the mess theyâ€™ve created.
And before we get anyone asking what mess, Iâ€™ll just say Police and NHS (and potholes ) If it hasnâ€™t been bad why is boris putting so much emphasis on them.
Iâ€™m lucky in that my local Labour MP has been good for the area, veterans and myself, plus he voted against the whip for borisâ€™s deal.

What I canâ€™t help wondering is, would or could I accept Corbyn even if he only managed half of whatâ€™s in the Manifesto!

It may sound a bit dramatic, but Iâ€™m not sure weâ€™ll see much positivity at all in the next 5 years regardless of who wins.
		
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Although it has been explained over and over to you regarding why austerity was necessary you talk about Boris and his party taking responsibility for the mess they created. I put it to you that we have all suffered over the last ten years due to the dire state Labour left the economy, we had to suffer austerity to remove the need for the country to rely on huge borrowing to let people have a standard of living they hadnt earned.  I put it that whatever the Conservatives do you and a number of others on this site will never be happy with it, you cannot give credit for anything what so ever.  Ill tell you something, I have been a Labour voter a number of times, I voted for Blair's government  and even supported him when he was being castigated by just about everybody, my support ran out when Brown took over and started his spending frenzy and massively increasing the benefit system such that many people could make a life decision to either work or live off the state.  Corbyn would leave Brown in the dust when it came to wasting money on crackpot schemes that would almost be impossible for the country to recover from.  I wish Labour did have a credible alternative government in waiting but thats not happening anytime  soon.

Hopefully enough people with knowledge of how extreme socialism never works and people who are sick to the pits of their stomaches over the way politicians of all parties have denied the outcome they were promised on Brexit will turn out and stop Corbyn in his tracks.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Ok, doing better than the Mrs Krankie can manage - good luck when you're not propped up by a Tory government!
		
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LOL


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## MegaSteve (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You can say that after about 125 days as Prime Minister?
		
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If we are only taking into account his time as PM then it's one promise and one fail...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Thought this is a thread about the election...
		
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Your post was in reply to the effect how Corbyns manifesto would bankrupt the economy, Thats a lot to do with the election.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nae surprise there then.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...andidates-down-south-poll-finds-10168265.html

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Oh if only we could vote on Scottish independence.... Cheerio and Bonne chance my old Caledonian chums!ðŸ˜œ


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			We're doing ok as a country and I reckon steady improvement is the answer. Corbyn imo will not do anything but bankrupt the country as Labour nearly did last time
		
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Weâ€™re not doing ok as a Country though are we, if we were people would be telling us all the positives the tories have brought in and done rather than focus on why Labour is bad.
borisâ€™s policies seem to be damage repair rather than bright future. I agree due to the global financial crash something had to be done, but how long do we keep blaming labour and 2009, the Government have admitted austerity is over, yet those suffering are not even mentioned in the tory manifesto, in fact more money was promised for potholes than social care.
By the way, Iâ€™m very comfortable and fortunate, it still riles me to see nothing about closing the poverty gap.


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## Dando (Nov 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Looking forward to seeing her get the AN treatment tonight, let's see how they expect to fund the independent Scotland once the leave .
		
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Itâ€™s on par with Prince Andrews!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup: we need to keep our powder dry with testing international times ahead. In particular the Basel lll regulations are coming (2.6tn Euros exposure) so the Euro Banks will be put under considerable liquidity strain which will hit the poorer/vulnerable members hard and impact the EU's flexibility against debt and the trade 'wars' won't help. Macron and Merkel are already bitching between themselves on where support, if any, can be found if EU recession is to be avoided.

If Labour get in then we'll be cap in hand to anyone who will listen and then jack up the interest rate that will be passed on to anyone with a loan.
		
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Really? Look at the economic forecasts for Brexit, look how long deals have taken with the EU to be negotiated and we are already threatened with walking away at the end of 2020 if he doesnâ€™t get a deal.
So again the spectre of no deal looms large.
The IFS also fact checked the tory manifesto and it doesnâ€™t add up, are we sure boris isnâ€™t going to get it just as wrong?


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 25, 2019)

Nicola S. struggling with Andrew Neill tonight


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			Itâ€™s on par with Prince Andrews!
		
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She got a fair caning there did the 1st Minister ðŸ˜


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Nicola S. struggling with Andrew Neill tonight
		
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did he ask her about Gatt 24...


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Really? Look at the economic forecasts for Brexit, look how long deals have taken with the EU to be negotiated and we are already threatened with walking away at the end of 2020 if he doesnâ€™t get a deal.
So again the spectre of no deal looms large.
The IFS also fact checked the tory manifesto and it doesnâ€™t add up, are we sure boris isnâ€™t going to get it just as wrong?
		
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Don't confuse the need for a deal. A deal makes trade easier than No deal but not having one doesn't mean no trade. If a company is running a 15% margin, and is then subject to a 5% tariff there is wriggle room. If a company is hit with a tariff, what tariffs will the UK apply to EU goods and will it use those tariffs gained as subsidies? Will the UK look to do what Ireland did with Corporation Tax, which has been a great success in stimulating their economy.

The deal/no deal isn't set in stone forever, and there are mitigations that a good govt would apply. Armageddon isn't just around the corner.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't confuse the need for a deal. A deal makes trade easier than No deal but not having one doesn't mean no trade. If a company is running a 15% margin, and is then subject to a 5% tariff there is wriggle room. If a company is hit with a tariff, what tariffs will the UK apply to EU goods and will it use those tariffs gained as subsidies? Will the UK look to do what Ireland did with Corporation Tax, which has been a great success in stimulating their economy.

The deal/no deal isn't set in stone forever, and there are mitigations that a good govt would apply. Armageddon isn't just around the corner.
		
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Not suggesting armageddon, more the fact we keep hearing the get brexit done being spouted, even if we leave in Jan we could be dealing with it for years! And with no idea if the economy will suffer for 1 day, 1 week or or or. And itâ€™s effect on the tory manifesto.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			did he ask her about Gatt 24...
		
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Yes, she said she knew her brother.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not suggesting armageddon, more the fact we keep hearing the get brexit done being spouted, even if we leave in Jan we could be dealing with it for years! And with no idea if the economy will suffer for 1 day, 1 week or or or. And itâ€™s effect on the tory manifesto.
		
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And how long is Jeremy going to take to negotiate a new deal?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And how long is Jeremy going to take to negotiate a new deal?
		
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3 months. And then after a further 3 months we get to vote on Corbyn's Remain (but not as good as actually remaining) deal and Remain.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not suggesting armageddon, more the fact we keep hearing the get brexit done being spouted, even if we leave in Jan we could be dealing with it for years! And with no idea if the economy will suffer for 1 day, 1 week or or or. And itâ€™s effect on the tory manifesto.
		
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Whoever forms the next government if they really want to move on and get business going again only have two options, get Brexit done or bin Brexit. The stupidity of Labour to think we can just go on and on with this because they cannot be honest about what they want will IMO get us deeper in the mire than the current government has managed through indecision.


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## chrisd (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not suggesting armageddon, more the fact we keep hearing the get brexit done being spouted, even if we leave in Jan we could be dealing with it for years! And with no idea if the economy will suffer for 1 day, 1 week or or or. And itâ€™s effect on the tory manifesto.
		
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Boris has said that we'll leave with no deal if they dont sort a deal by 31st Dec 2020


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh if only we could vote on Scottish independence.... Cheerio and Bonne chance my old Caledonian chums!ðŸ˜œ
		
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i suggest you vote for Jezza then, Boris doesn't share your opinion


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			3 months. And then after a further 3 months we get to vote on Corbyn's Remain (but not as good as actually remaining) deal and Remain.
		
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Not seeing the question youâ€™re answering, but I can guess itâ€™s really clever and condescending.
For the record, again and again, not you, but for the hard of reading.
Iâ€™m happy to leave, want to leave and if boris or the man on the moon achieves it then good.
My point is how can any of these manifestoâ€™s (but today weâ€™re discussing the tory one) guarantee any of the future spends.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Whoever forms the next government if they really want to move on and get business going again only have two options, get Brexit done or bin Brexit. The stupidity of Labour to think we can just go on and on with this because they cannot be honest about what they want will IMO get us deeper in the mire than the current government has managed through indecision.
		
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Whoâ€™s talking about Labour?
Nicky Morgan today saying leaving on 31st Jan is only for the public as thereâ€™s still 80% of the work to be done, so 80% by 31st Dec or itâ€™s all been for nothing and we play WTO Rules.
So if the economy struggles whatâ€™s the plan?


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## Dando (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			did he ask her about Gatt 24...
		
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She keeps a can under the stairs to stop the hinges squeaking


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not seeing the question youâ€™re answering, but I can guess itâ€™s really clever and condescending.
For the record, again and again, not you, but for the hard of reading.
Iâ€™m happy to leave, want to leave and if boris or the man on the moon achieves it then good.
My point is how can any of these manifestoâ€™s (but today weâ€™re discussing the tory one) guarantee any of the future spends.
		
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The question was...How long was Corbyn going to take to negotiate a new deal? My response was what Labour have said in their manifesto was going to happen - 3 months to negotiate and then a 2nd ref after 6 months. With the end of my response being tongue in cheek with regards to Corbyn suggesting that he would stay in the customs union and single market and keep free movement of people, which is essentially Remain in Leave clothing.

With regards to the manifestos, I think that the Tory one is the one that can come closest to a guarantee in that it is the least costly of them all. Based only on the fact that it involves spending the least amount of money then it must be the one that will be closest to happening in the event of Brexit turning out to be a disaster. Even if we were to remain I think that the Labour and Lib Dem manifestos are unaffordable with growth in the EU slowing or even turning negative I can't see how they can fund the manifesto promises without a growing economy. The figures earlier in the thread of the amount of tax that the top 5% already contribute verses how much extra they would be required to contribute just don't stack up.

The above statement is in no way a defence of the Tory manifesto or a suggestion that it's good, simply that I think it's closer to reality than the others.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whoâ€™s talking about Labour?
Nicky Morgan today saying leaving on 31st Jan is only for the public as thereâ€™s still 80% of the work to be done, so 80% by 31st Dec or itâ€™s all been for nothing and we play WTO Rules.
So if the economy struggles whatâ€™s the plan?
		
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its doesn't matter, the Russians, Billionairs who don't want to pay tax and people who enable them to sort the cash earned in this country to offshore slush funds would have got what they wanted.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nae surprise there then.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...andidates-down-south-poll-finds-10168265.html

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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199056353161043969


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not seeing the question youâ€™re answering, but I can guess itâ€™s really clever and condescending.
For the record, again and again, not you, but for the hard of reading.
Iâ€™m happy to leave, want to leave and if boris or the man on the moon achieves it then good.
My point is how can any of these manifestoâ€™s (but today weâ€™re discussing the tory one) guarantee any of the future spends.
		
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Assuming the Tories get in and Brexit happens, or assuming Labour get in and their 2nd Referendum comes up with leave, no manifesto can guarantee how Brexit will pan out. And if no one knows the future, no one knows how much there'd be to spend. If Brexit doesn't happen, for whatever reason, there is more certainty in the immediate future. Quite how the EU's new budget pans out, or the maturing of junk bonds or or or long term, no one knows.

Can't give you the certainty you're asking for. Its now down to you to determine what you believe and how it reconciles with your political beliefs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The question was...How long was Corbyn going to take to negotiate a new deal? My response was what Labour have said in their manifesto was going to happen - 3 months to negotiate and then a 2nd ref after 6 months. With the end of my response being tongue in cheek with regards to Corbyn suggesting that he would stay in the customs union and single market and keep free movement of people, which is essentially Remain in Leave clothing.

With regards to the manifestos, I think that the Tory one is the one that can come closest to a guarantee in that it is the least costly of them all. Based only on the fact that it involves spending the least amount of money then it must be the one that will be closest to happening in the event of Brexit turning out to be a disaster. Even if we were to remain I think that the Labour and Lib Dem manifestos are unaffordable with growth in the EU slowing or even turning negative I can't see how they can fund the manifesto promises without a growing economy. The figures earlier in the thread of the amount of tax that the top 5% already contribute verses how much extra they would be required to contribute just don't stack up.

The above statement is in no way a defence of the Tory manifesto or a suggestion that it's good, simply that I think it's closer to reality than the others.
		
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I agree with the manifestoâ€™s thatâ€™s why I described the Labour one as a fairy story.

I get the feeling though a lot of people believe if we leave on 31st Jan thatâ€™s brexit over done with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Assuming the Tories get in and Brexit happens, or assuming Labour get in and their 2nd Referendum comes up with leave, no manifesto can guarantee how Brexit will pan out. And if no one knows the future, no one knows how much there'd be to spend. If Brexit doesn't happen, for whatever reason, there is more certainty in the immediate future. Quite how the EU's new budget pans out, or the maturing of junk bonds or or or long term, no one knows.

Can't give you the certainty you're asking for. Its now down to you to determine what you believe and how it reconciles with your political beliefs.
		
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Not looking for certainty Bri, just chewing the fat and hopefully making people see both sides (as well as me being educated) sadly some think words on a Golf Forum carry some weight.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Assuming the Tories get in and Brexit happens, *or assuming Labour get in and their 2nd Referendum comes up with leav*e, no manifesto can guarantee how Brexit will pan out. And if no one knows the future, no one knows how much there'd be to spend. If Brexit doesn't happen, for whatever reason, there is more certainty in the immediate future. Quite how the EU's new budget pans out, or the maturing of junk bonds or or or long term, no one knows.

Can't give you the certainty you're asking for. Its now down to you to determine what you believe and how it reconciles with your political beliefs.
		
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That's not possible. Labour have said that their referendum will be their newly negotiated deal v Remain. Leave won't be an option.


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's not possible. Labour have said that their referendum will be their newly negotiated deal v Remain. Leave won't be an option.
		
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Maybe its semantics but if the vote on Labour's deal is to accept it, surely that is a vote to Leave...


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe its semantics but if the vote on Labour's deal is to accept it, surely that is a vote to Leave...
		
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Continued membership of the customs union and single market and freedom of movement to continue - according to Labour plans. I'm not sure what part of their leave deal could actually be considered leaving. It will be leave in name only and just be a less good version of remain. We'd be far better off remaining and actually being inside the club rather than leaving on a Labour deal (assuming that what they say they will negotiate is what actually happens).


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not looking for certainty Bri, just chewing the fat and hopefully making people see both sides (as well as me being educated) sadly some think words on a Golf Forum carry some weight.

Click to expand...

Crikey, we all need some education. This is the most important election that I can ever remember - maybe we're all more aware now as politics has been centre stage for nearly 4 years now. And because of that, maybe we're all more disillusioned with it than we've ever been.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2019)

BBC News are reporting that in two separate incidents Labour canvassers have been attacked an injured. In the first a Labour activist and her fellow canvassers were called "Marxists" and told to leave Herefordshire. The woman, believed to be in her 70's, was thrown onto a car bonnet and has been treated for suspected cracked ribs after the assault, which came as campaigners were delivering leaflets. In the 2nd incident a man was arrested after a 72 year old woman was taken to hospital with a suspected broken jaw.

I can't believe that anyone would think that it is OK to attack someone else, least of all females in their 70's, for holding a different opinion. Hopefully these scumbags will be dealt with appropriately and politicians from all sides will look at their behaviour and language and moderate the tone they are using.

EDIT - Looks like one of those attacked was a man in his 70's not a woman as I previously posted. Not that it makes any difference to my feelings expressed in my original post.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50552115


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			BBC News are reporting that in two separate incidents Labour canvassers have been attacked an injured. In the first a Labour activist and her fellow canvassers were called "Marxists" and told to leave Herefordshire. The woman, believed to be in her 70's, was thrown onto a car bonnet and has been treated for suspected cracked ribs after the assault, which came as campaigners were delivering leaflets. In the 2nd incident a man was arrested after a 72 year old woman was taken to hospital with a suspected broken jaw.

I can't believe that anyone would think that it is OK to attack someone else, least of all females in their 70's, for holding a different opinion. Hopefully these scumbags will be dealt with appropriately and politicians from all sides will look at their behaviour and language and moderate the tone they are using.

EDIT - Looks like one of those attacked was a man in his 70's not a woman as I previously posted. Not that it makes any difference to my feelings expressed in my original post.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50552115

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unfortunatly this is what Brexit has done to this country


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			unfortunatly this is what Brexit has done to this country
		
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Brexit or not we have scum on all sides of the political divide.
Attacking pensioners is the lowest of the low.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			unfortunatly this is what Brexit has done to this country
		
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Dont talk like a Twazzock.  Some people are just plain evil, they dont need a reason.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			its doesn't matter, the Russians, Billionairs who don't want to pay tax and people who enable them to sort the cash earned in this country to offshore slush funds would have got what they wanted.
		
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Doon II


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## Wolf (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			unfortunatly this is what Brexit has done to this country
		
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Brexit hasn't made people suddenly vile enough to attack the elderly, in order to do that you have to be a scumbag period regardless of your political preferences, all Brexit or the GE has done is give these vile morons an excuse to try and hide behind.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont talk like a Twazzock.  Some people are just plain evil, they dont need a reason.
		
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so the country isn't more divided than its ever been... silly me...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not seeing the question youâ€™re answering, but I can guess itâ€™s really clever and condescending.
For the record, again and again, not you, but for the hard of reading.
Iâ€™m happy to leave, want to leave and if boris or the man on the moon achieves it then good.
My point is how can any of these manifestoâ€™s (but today weâ€™re discussing the tory one) guarantee any of the future spends.
		
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If you can't see it then don't presume what it is ðŸ™„


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Doon II[/QUOTE

if you say so 

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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			She got a fair caning there did the 1st Minister ðŸ˜
		
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I wouldn't agree with that. Neil did a decent job but I'd argue it was a 60/40 for him. 

I was shocked to hear how badly the NHS Scotland was performing. Things still trending down?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so the country isn't more divided than its ever been... silly me...
		
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Yes, very silly. You didnt mention anything about the country being divided, you said this was what Brexit had done to the country. The incident is about some meat head acting like an idiot, they've always been around.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2019)

Desperate that folk from outwith Scotland are  attacking  the Scottish NHS without having the knowledge that it is far superior to the English and Welsh  NHS.
What a strange place the UK has become.


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, very silly. You didnt mention anything about the country being divided, you said this was what Brexit had done to the country. The incident is about some meat head acting like an idiot, they've always been around.
		
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so its not Brexits thats divided the country then....i must have dreamt the last 3 years..... who's silly now...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Brexit hasn't made people suddenly vile enough to attack the elderly, in order to do that you have to be a scumbag period regardless of your political preferences, all Brexit or the GE has done is give these vile morons an excuse to try and hide behind.
		
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Itâ€™s a 51yr Old bloke been arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm in the Rotherham attack.
Coward!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so its not Brexits thats divided the country then....i must have dreamt the last 3 years..... who's silly now...

Click to expand...

I dont know how to explain it any simpler for you to understand.
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Brexit hasn't made people suddenly vile enough to attack the elderly, in order to do that you have to be a scumbag period regardless of your political preferences, all Brexit or the GE has done is give these vile morons an excuse to try and hide behind.
		
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just have a look at the morons threatening MPs  even the bile on here at times... its only going to get worse IMO


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## patricks148 (Nov 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont know how to explain it any simpler for you to understand.
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

you would only come up with lies anyway so don't bother


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## Wolf (Nov 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s a 51yr Old bloke been arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm in the Rotherham attack.
Coward!
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully they throw the book at him and he goes away for a long time pathetic excuse of a human being. 



patricks148 said:



			just have a look at the *morons* threatening MPs  even the bile on here at times... its only going to get worse IMO
		
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That word there sums it up irrespective of their political agendas all those that threaten violence or carry it out for any reason other than defence are simply morons. Sadly the morons in question are hiding their inadequacies behind threats of violence based on political issues.. These people were probably the school bully and need taking down a peg or to.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you would only come up with lies anyway so don't bother 

Click to expand...

I wont sweet cheeks ðŸ‘„


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## Hitdaball (Nov 25, 2019)

You can bet that campaigner in Rother Valley would have been assaulted because of labours policy of wanting Public Schools to pay VAT  , but  you just know that someone would post up that it would be about Brexit. 

Honestly, the tangents some people draw.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Desperate that folk from outwith Scotland are  attacking  the Scottish NHS without having the knowledge that it is far superior to the English and Welsh  NHS.
What a strange place the UK has become.

Click to expand...

Just don't drink the water


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You can bet that campaigner in Rother Valley would have been assaulted because of labours policy of wanting Public Schools to pay VAT  , but  you just know that someone would post up that it would be about Brexit.

Honestly, the tangents some people draw.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly with you not condemning the attack but guessing/explaining it wasnâ€™t about Brexit but about private schools is you somehow justifying it...... or maybe thatâ€™s just the tangent I draw from your post.


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## Hitdaball (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Honestly with you not condemning the attack but guessing/explaining it wasnâ€™t about Brexit but about private schools is you somehow justifying it...... or maybe thatâ€™s just the tangent I draw from your post.

Click to expand...

Whoosh


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Whoosh
		
Click to expand...

Think you missed the smilie off your first post. I took it as a joke, well 95% of me did.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Whoosh
		
Click to expand...

No whoosh, not funny in any way, shape or form, as itâ€™s not something to be made fun of.


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## patricks148 (Nov 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Hopefully they throw the book at him and he goes away for a long time pathetic excuse of a human being.


That word there sums it up irrespective of their political agendas all those that threaten violence or carry it out for any reason other than defence are simply morons. Sadly the morons in question are hiding their inadequacies behind threats of violence based on political issues.. These people were probably the school bully and need taking down a peg or to.
		
Click to expand...

unfortunatly this is turning into one of the nastiest GE i can remember. My wife is a Labour activisest and she is getting abuse on SM daily not from people up here but right wingers from down in England. some pretty nasty stuff getting said to her


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post was in reply to the effect how Corbyns manifesto would bankrupt the economy, Thats a lot to do with the election.
		
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Suspect you prefer us to continue with the biggest tory lie of all time economy... The "we are all in this together" one... That has 95% getting austerity and the top five percent getting extra cash in their pockets...


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Honestly with you not condemning the attack but guessing/explaining it wasnâ€™t about Brexit but about private schools is you somehow justifying it...... or maybe thatâ€™s just the tangent I draw from your post.

Click to expand...

The way I read it Paul was entirely different. I think he was just pointing out that any adverse story is always linked immediately to Brexit, - the media have been doing this for the past 3 years. If there was a reason for an assault in the mind of the assailant it could have been for any Labour manifesto promise but it's easy for people to say its Brexit related just to suit their agenda.

It's a shame he didn't condemn the attack though


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The way I read it Paul was entirely different. I think he was just pointing out that any adverse story is always linked immediately to Brexit, - the media have been doing this for the past 3 years. If there was a reason for an assault in the mind of the assailant it could have been for any Labour manifesto promise but it's easy for people to say its Brexit related just to suit their agenda.

*It's a shame he didn't condemn the attack though*

Click to expand...

Exactly, every other intent of his post (right or wrong) was then wasted.
Thatâ€™s the reason I disagreed with Patricks post straight away.


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			unfortunatly this is turning into one of the nastiest GE i can remember. My wife is a Labour activisest and she is getting abuse on SM daily not from people up here but right wingers from down in England. some pretty nasty stuff getting said to her
		
Click to expand...

It's not acceptable to use social media in this way, but unfortunately  (anti) social media just makes it so easy to bully etc. In the past someone would have to make much more effort to bully eg write a letter, telephone or pay a visit, but on a keyboard it's simple and the numpties out there dont care what they say. Sadly, I don't see how it can be stopped.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2019)

Lord Hesletine in top form, on the beeb, this morning... I would suggest he's not a Boris fanboy...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's not acceptable to use social media in this way, but unfortunately  (anti) social media just makes it so easy to bully etc. In the past someone would have to make much more effort to bully eg write a letter, telephone or pay a visit, but on a keyboard it's simple and the numpties out there dont care what they say. Sadly, I don't see how it can be stopped.
		
Click to expand...

They can be tracked, they are not that sophisticated. It is totally unacceptable and I am sure they will regret it when they have no internet access down some re-opened tin mine!


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They can be tracked, they are not that sophisticated. It is totally unacceptable and I am sure they will regret it when they have no internet access down some re-opened tin mine!
		
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Yes, they can be tracked but sending nasty or even threatening messages are unlikely to be a police matter these days, so the perpetrators are unlikely to be dealt with unless they really overstep the mark in a big way.


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## patricks148 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's not acceptable to use social media in this way, but unfortunately  (anti) social media just makes it so easy to bully etc. In the past someone would have to make much more effort to bully eg write a letter, telephone or pay a visit, but on a keyboard it's simple and the numpties out there dont care what they say. Sadly, I don't see how it can be stopped.
		
Click to expand...

Most of it was on and open FB Inverness labour page, they have now had to make it a closed group which sort of def the purpose


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's not acceptable to use social media in this way, but unfortunately  (anti) social media just makes it so easy to bully etc. In the past someone would have to make much more effort to bully eg write a letter, telephone or pay a visit, but on a keyboard it's simple and the numpties out there dont care what they say. Sadly, I don't see how it can be stopped.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it is very sad to see that it is even creeping onto the pages of this forum


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## harpo_72 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes, they can be tracked but sending nasty or even threatening messages are unlikely to be a police matter these days, so the perpetrators are unlikely to be dealt with unless they really overstep the mark in a big way.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think your right, recent history have been civil cases


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, it is very sad to see that it is even creeping onto the pages of this forum
		
Click to expand...

None of us are perfect, but do you ever stop to think how extreme some of your posts look?

How would SILH put it?
â€œLet he without sin cast the first stoneâ€


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Suspect you prefer us to continue with the biggest tory lie of all time economy... The "we are all in this together" one... That has 95% getting austerity and the top five percent getting extra cash in their pockets...
		
Click to expand...

Wooo there! Wheres all that coming from.
I only explained to you why it was about the economy when you asked the question.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2019)

Should any religious leader be getting involved in the General Election debate?  Of course they should.

Corbyn's moral compass might be a bit wonky - but I'd argue that, in perhaps a different way but just as much, so is Johnson's.

(I note that I do not compare anti-Semitism with a lack of morals - the former is obnoxious and dangerous - the latter is not a good basis for making the right decisions and leading the country)

And actually - I agree with the Chief Rabbi (and also with Julia Neuberger earlier this morning) that Corbyn is not fit for office as he is complicit in the anti-Semitism that seems to be present in the Labour party.  He may not be anti-Semitic himself - but that does not absolve him of responsibility.  I may support many of his policies but I really struggle with Corbyn.


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

listening to 5 Live on the way to work. A Jewish leader being interviewed, he says that they met Corbyn in April 2018 to discuss anti Semitism and other matters. Corbyn said that he would come back to them soon with answers and plans, and the Jews have still not heard from him yet! Apparently there are about 160 serious cases still not dealt with despite Corbyn saying the other day that all outstanding issues have been cleared.

Is that just Corbyn's moral compass just being wonky?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			None of us are perfect, but do you ever stop to think how extreme some of your posts look?

How would SILH put it?
â€œLet he without sin cast the first stoneâ€
		
Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of extreme.

If you were aware of the offending post on here I am certain you would understand and be supportive
I shall let that lie now as the offending poster has not posted since.
 I have never complained about any posts on here as I think the  Mods generally do a difficult job very well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2019)

And so if we applaud, as we must, the Chief Rabbi for speaking out against Corbyn, then we must also applaud any religious leader who has, or will, speak out against Johnson and Brexit.


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## USER1999 (Nov 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so if we applaud, as we must, the Chief Rabbi for speaking out against Corbyn, then we must also applaud any religious leader who has, or will, speak out against Johnson and Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Why? One has not dealt with anti semitic incidents in his party, and one is trying to ebact the results of a referendum? Surely even you can see a difference?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so if we applaud, as we must, the Chief Rabbi for speaking out against Corbyn, then we must also applaud any religious leader who has, or will, speak out against Johnson and Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Only if it's justified


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why? One has not dealt with anti semitic incidents in his party, and one is trying to ebact the results of a referendum? Surely even you can see a difference?
		
Click to expand...

What about enquiry into islamaphobia in the tory party that was announced and now boris has cancelled.
Or the Jewish scholars who have come out in support of Corbyn, why arenâ€™t they getting equal airtime?


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## USER1999 (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What about enquiry into islamaphobia in the tory party that was announced and now boris has cancelled.
Or the Jewish scholars who have come out in support of Corbyn, why arenâ€™t they getting equal airtime?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, I had forgotten about the Islamophobia, but Brexit? No. That is not the same at all.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Depends on your definition of extreme.

If you were aware of the offending post on here I am certain you would understand and be supportive
I shall let that lie now as the offending poster has not posted since.
I have never complained about any posts on here as I think the  Mods generally do a difficult job very well.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve reported posts, mods will tell you they canâ€™t be expected to see every post that is posted.
You may not see your posts in isolation as extreme, but trust me the constant drip drip of them are like a chinese water torture.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Ok, I had forgotten about the Islamophobia, but Brexit? No. That is not the same at all.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, Brexit is a red herring.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why? One has not dealt with anti semitic incidents in his party, and one is trying to ebact the results of a referendum? Surely even you can see a difference?
		
Click to expand...

For anti semitism in the Labour Party, read Islamaphobia in the Conservative Party. Neither come well out of this.


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## Hitdaball (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The way I read it Paul was entirely different. I think he was just pointing out that any adverse story is always linked immediately to Brexit, - the media have been doing this for the past 3 years. If there was a reason for an assault in the mind of the assailant it could have been for any Labour manifesto promise but it's easy for people to say its Brexit related just to suit their agenda.

It's a shame he didn't condemn the attack though
		
Click to expand...

You are so wrong


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## Hitdaball (Nov 26, 2019)

I condemn the violence .  This applies to the above post and any future post.


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You are so wrong
		
Click to expand...

So much for giving the benefit of the doubt


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Wooo there! Wheres all that coming from.
I only explained to you why it was about the economy when you asked the question.
		
Click to expand...

Believe we have two wildly differing views of the economy on offer... The give something to all one... Which is probably unachievable... Or, the rich can keep getting richer one... Which is great if you are part of the top five percent...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe we have two wildly differing views of the economy on offer... The give something to all one... Which is probably unachievable... Or, the rich can keep getting richer one... Which is great if you are part of the top five percent...
		
Click to expand...

You're really losing me on this.  Look back on our conversation please, I cant see where I have suggested any of the things you are posting.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is this for real or a set up ?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199022123546791936

Click to expand...

Yup that's Mansfields neighbours


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## Hitdaball (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So much for giving the benefit of the doubt 

Click to expand...

ðŸ’”


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2019)

He does not hold back... does he?

Scottish people can look away, it might take the wind underneath their wings.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199056353161043969


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so if we applaud, as we must, the Chief Rabbi for speaking out against Corbyn, then we must also applaud any religious leader who has, or will, speak out against Johnson and Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

The Chief Rabbi was, afaik, talking about anti semitism and complaints made but not dealt with by Corbyn despite his saying all complaints had been dealt with. I don't see any religious leader can speak out against Brexit other than on a purely personal level as their religion is not involved in that decision making.


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## patricks148 (Nov 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			He does not hold back... does he?

Scottish people can look away, it might take the wind underneath their wings..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199056353161043969

Click to expand...

thats not the whole interview and he dosn't give her a chance to answer


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2019)

Boris was out campaigning in his own constituency Saturday... If any member of the hoi polloi (his constituents) raised a question regarding local issues the stock response was "let's get brexit done"... Really helpful that... Not! 

Sunday Times noting that with a bit of tactical voting Boris's seat is under threat...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Chief Rabbi was, afaik, talking about anti semitism and complaints made but not dealt with by Corbyn despite his saying all complaints had been dealt with. I don't see any religious leader can speak out against Brexit other than on a purely personal level as their religion is not involved in that decision making.
		
Click to expand...

What a great way to launch his new policy today


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199342574487474182


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2019)

And another one...   indeed 'Thick of It' feels like a documentary now.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198998239128805377


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			He does not hold back... does he?

Scottish people can look away, it might take the wind underneath their wings..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199056353161043969

Click to expand...

We look forward to Neil questioning Johnson in the same manner on the English NHS, that is after the BBC have rejected Cummings prepared question list and removed Johnsons earpiece.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50552295 BBC fact checking against it's own staff, whatever next.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199390279876403201


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## harpo_72 (Nov 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199390279876403201

Click to expand...

Before you know it the atheists and satanists will be posting on Twitter and Instagram... is there no end to how many religions Corbyn can offend? 

Or is he uniting them all ? Nought like a figure of hate .. or common enemy.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What about enquiry into islamaphobia in the tory party that was announced and now boris has cancelled.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't the enquiry into Islamophobia get cancelled in favour of an enquiry looking into all forms of racism/predjudice in the Tory party?

But having had a quick Google it looks as though Michael Gove has confirmed that one will take place by the end of the year.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-pledge-islamophobia-inquiry-end-20813917


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2019)

Andrew Neil is a truly dreadful interviewer with an ego as big as his gut.
I am pretty sure that he talked for over at least half of that 30 minute interview and interrupted virtually every reply.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Andrew Neil is a truly dreadful interviewer with an ego as big as his gut.
I am pretty sure that he talked for over at least half of that 30 minute interview and interrupted virtually every reply.
		
Click to expand...

That wouldnâ€™t be because he showed up the SNP leader and their history and the state of Scotland under their leadership ðŸ™„


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Andrew Neil is a truly dreadful interviewer with an ego as big as his gut.
I am pretty sure that he talked for over at least half of that 30 minute interview and interrupted virtually every reply.
		
Click to expand...

Because virtually every reply was waffle!


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Because virtually every reply was waffle!
		
Click to expand...

Every reply had nothing to do with the question asked, expect much of the same from BJ to be honest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2019)

I find it amazing that Tory boys highlight the Anti Semitism issues within Labour when the leader of their party has his own history with racist comments 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...gise-racist-homophobic-comments-11204372/amp/

What it does show is they are both as bad as each other

What is also clear is

People who have been largely unaffected by the yearly cuts by the Tories in this period of austerity are unable to see past their nose and look at the affect it has had on millions of people outside their leafy settlements 

And the finger of blame will always be pointed towards labour 

The problem is Labour have Corbyn 

I would vote Labour and reading their manifesto or parts of it they seem to want to make life fairer a little bit and help those that are struggling and making rich people cough up more in taxes to help their fellow human beings - it maybe a bit too fairytale but at least itâ€™s trying to do some good for people 

I thought Tories would walk the election and we would have another decade of cuts - not sure now


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Every reply had nothing to do with the question asked, expect much of the same from BJ to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Boris will get the treatment too. 

Corbyn's tax plans were shown up for the claim that only the Â£80k+ earners would pay more. He just shrugged off the Â£250  extra tax to those who wont receive the married persons allowance


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Didn't the enquiry into Islamophobia get cancelled in favour of an enquiry looking into all forms of racism/predjudice in the Tory party?

But having had a quick Google it looks as though Michael Gove has confirmed that one will take place by the end of the year.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-pledge-islamophobia-inquiry-end-20813917

Click to expand...

Not you.

Corbyn has promised to fix the Country, are we now believing everything politicians say?


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## Dando (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Because virtually every reply was waffle!
		
Click to expand...

More waffle than captain birds eye


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not you.

Corbyn has promised to fix the Country, are we now believing everything politicians say?

Click to expand...

Are you really meaning "anything"


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not you.

Corbyn has promised to fix the Country, are we now believing everything politicians say?

Click to expand...

Are we believing anything that politicians say?ðŸ¤”


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes, Boris will get the treatment too.

Corbyn's tax plans were shown up for the claim that only the Â£80k+ earners would pay more. He just shrugged off the Â£250  extra tax to those who wont receive the married persons allowance
		
Click to expand...

More worried about shrugging off where the Â£58 billion was going to appear from.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I find it amazing that Tory boys highlight the Anti Semitism issues within Labour when the leader of their party has his own history with racist comments

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...gise-racist-homophobic-comments-11204372/amp/

What it does show is they are both as bad as each other

What is also clear is

People who have been largely unaffected by the yearly cuts by the Tories in this period of austerity are unable to see past their nose and look at the affect it has had on millions of people outside their leafy settlements

And the finger of blame will always be pointed towards labour

The problem is Labour have Corbyn

I would vote Labour and reading their manifesto or parts of it they seem to want to make life fairer a little bit and help those that are struggling and making rich people cough up more in taxes to help their fellow human beings - it maybe a bit too fairytale but at least itâ€™s trying to do some good for people

I thought Tories would walk the election and we would have another decade of cuts - not sure now
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think better off people can't see the problems for those that dont live down their street?   Labour MPs are not exactly living in poverty and from what I can see many Labour activists dont look hard up.

Labours manifesto is just unaffordable,  something that promises something for nothing is fools gold, everything has to be paid for by someone and if you think it can all be paid for by top earners and big business then think again because it can't and people like you will end up worse off when the economy tanks. Its not a bit fairytale its complete Alice in Wonderland politics.

Austerity was the result of people expecting to have standards of living they hadnt earned that was propped up by Government borrowing, the borrowing had to stop and the money has to be paid back.  If you want the country to get in this mess again then get Corbyn in No10 but as night follows day the price will have to be paid again and it will be pointless blaming the bad old Tories for the next round of cuts.


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			More worried about shrugging off where the Â£58 billion was going to appear from.
		
Click to expand...

If you mean the payments to the Waspi's a good chunk would come our way but I'd rather lose it than see JC in power


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If you mean the payments to the Waspi's a good chunk would come our way but I'd rather lose it than see JC in power
		
Click to expand...

No detail on how he can pay for this promise.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

Chief Rabbi not speaking on behalf of all Jews then


Dear Chief Rabbi,

You have shamed your office today and rendered the Jewish people even more vulnerable to real antisemitism by reinforcing the fake, media-induced antisemitism that you recklessly impute to Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.

To interfere politically at this point in an election in a way that could affect the only party that could bring hope and social justice to this country is beyond contempt and renders you unfit for office.


As a Jew and a Labour Party supporter, I am proud to be part of a venture that I see as a continuity of so many of my Jewish forbears who have fought for social justice here and in Europe.

You talk about â€˜the soul of the nation being at stakeâ€™ YET have you not noticed what has happened to that soul over the last nine years where:
1. The poor have been vilified
2. The ill have been attacked
3. The mentally ill have suffered
4. Inequality has soared.
5. Greed and financial rapaciousness has flourished
6. Austerity has been unnecessarily applied after a financial crisis brought about by an out of control finance sector that has benefited the wealthiest.

Where was YOUR voice about the nationâ€™s soul then? Yet you inveigh against a decent and honest man who, even now, maintains integrity in the face of manifest manipulation, deceit and digital sleight of hand from the Tories.

You have shamed your office, the justice loving tradition of the Jewish people and laid the grounds for future tensions in the most irresponsible way.

You seem to lack the acuity of intellect to even spot the most obvious use of this bogus antisemitism as a political weapon. Justin Schlossberg of the Media Reform Coalition called the antisemitism saga â€˜a disinformation paradigmâ€™ and made a detailed study of the issue. The great scholar, Norman Finkelstein, likewise, sees this a purely politically motivated attack.

How dare you, amateurishly intervene in this, betraying the great Jewish scholarly tradition of intellectual and analytical acumen embodied in the Talmud and the exegetics of the Chumash.

With profound sadness and considerable disgust,

Simon Cohen


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1198896736791617536
Must be a sad state of affairs when you are being shown up by Morgan


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Chief Rabbi not speaking on behalf of all Jews then


Dear Chief Rabbi,

You have shamed your office today and rendered the Jewish people even more vulnerable to real antisemitism by reinforcing the fake, media-induced antisemitism that you recklessly impute to Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.

To interfere politically at this point in an election in a way that could affect the only party that could bring hope and social justice to this country is beyond contempt and renders you unfit for office.


As a Jew and a Labour Party supporter, I am proud to be part of a venture that I see as a continuity of so many of my Jewish forbears who have fought for social justice here and in Europe.

You talk about â€˜the soul of the nation being at stakeâ€™ YET have you not noticed what has happened to that soul over the last nine years where:
1. The poor have been vilified
2. The ill have been attacked
3. The mentally ill have suffered
4. Inequality has soared.
5. Greed and financial rapaciousness has flourished
6. Austerity has been unnecessarily applied after a financial crisis brought about by an out of control finance sector that has benefited the wealthiest.

Where was YOUR voice about the nationâ€™s soul then? Yet you inveigh against a decent and honest man who, even now, maintains integrity in the face of manifest manipulation, deceit and digital sleight of hand from the Tories.

You have shamed your office, the justice loving tradition of the Jewish people and laid the grounds for future tensions in the most irresponsible way.

You seem to lack the acuity of intellect to even spot the most obvious use of this bogus antisemitism as a political weapon. Justin Schlossberg of the Media Reform Coalition called the antisemitism saga â€˜a disinformation paradigmâ€™ and made a detailed study of the issue. The great scholar, Norman Finkelstein, likewise, sees this a purely politically motivated attack.

How dare you, amateurishly intervene in this, betraying the great Jewish scholarly tradition of intellectual and analytical acumen embodied in the Talmud and the exegetics of the Chumash.

With profound sadness and considerable disgust,

Simon Cohen
		
Click to expand...

Its a tough one. Should religious leaders use their position to interfere in politics? Simon Cohen's response, irrespective of whether he is right or not, shows that they shouldn't - IMO. Religious leaders should be accessible to all members of their faith. But by speaking out as he has, a number of jews may feel they can no longer approach him. Equally, Simon Cohen has a vested interest and a bias of his own.

The Equalities Commission is investigating Labour. Why should the Chief Rabbi speak out? Its not a difficult question to ponder, and I'm sure we could all come up with our own version we believe in.

A bit like all the info that's come out on Brexit, shining a spotlight on institutional racism has, sadly, revealed some disappointing insights. There are racism claims against all the major parties. There is no point in saying this party is worse than that party, as ALL of it is a disgrace on our country. Our leaders should be leading the country away from things like racism... what a choice we have...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2019)

Looks like the SNPs pants are on fire.

BBC News - Jo Swinson wins court bid to stop SNP 'fracking' leaflet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50565209


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## chrisd (Nov 26, 2019)

On 5 live today it was said that one Tory candidate was accused of posting insulting words on social media and was sacked immediately, I believe they said the Lib Dems had one sacked for the same reason and 9 Labour candidates were reported too and none have been stood down


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			On 5 live today it was said that one Tory candidate was accused of posting insulting words on social media and was sacked immediately, I believe they said the Lib Dems had one sacked for the same reason and 9 Labour candidates were reported too and none have been stood down
		
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Thereâ€™s been 2 tory candidates suspended for antisemitism and holocaust denial in the last fortnight.
This one is standing though.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/conservative-candidate-islamophobic-tweet


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That wouldnâ€™t be because he showed up the SNP leader and their history and the state of Scotland under their leadership ðŸ™„
		
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No.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

Shhhhh, don't share this, it's a secret.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199413119304523782


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Shhhhh, don't share this, it's a secret.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199413119304523782

Click to expand...

Are you sure that it's a good idea to be promoting information on a public forum that the Court of Session in Edinburgh has ruled is "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory"?


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## ger147 (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you sure that it's a good idea to be promoting information on a public forum that the Court of Session in Edinburgh has ruled is "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory"?
		
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Some folk only bleat on about court cases when they win. When they lose, the big brush and rug comes out...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Shhhhh, don't share this, it's a secret.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199413119304523782

Click to expand...

You can all share this as it shows the SNP lost the court case falsly accusing Swinson,
Shame on them.

BBC News - Jo Swinson wins court bid to stop SNP 'fracking' leaflet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50565209


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you sure that it's a good idea to be promoting information on a public forum that the Court of Session in Edinburgh has ruled is "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory"?
		
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Did you not open the link...â€¦....that is where you will find the joke.
She openly admits taking the money.


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You can all share this as it shows the SNP lost the court case falsly accusing Swinson,
Shame on them.

BBC News - Jo Swinson wins court bid to stop SNP 'fracking' leaflet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50565209

Click to expand...

Stop it!

BBC Fake News!

Our news reporter from D&G knows better. Further news, a herd of cows was seen crossing the A75 near Dumfries. When asked who they would be voting for they replied "turkeys. After all, it is nearly Christmas. Failing that, that ginger haired bint. Gingers are persecuted, and deserve to be cuddled."


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you not open the link...â€¦....that is where you will find the joke.
She openly admits taking the money.

Click to expand...

Read my link where it was turfed out by the Scottish courts. Seems like his company has a license for fracking but it has never been used.


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's not acceptable to use social media in this way, but unfortunately  (anti) social media just makes it so easy to bully etc. In the past someone would have to make much more effort to bully eg write a letter, telephone or pay a visit, but on a keyboard it's simple and the numpties out there dont care what they say. *Sadly, I don't see how it can be stopped.*

Click to expand...

This surely has to be the job of the social media companies. It's like the wild west as legislation tries in vain to catch up with internet explosion. It's not acceptable that companies like FB and Twitter don't accept the responsibilities as curators of their content like other media sources have to,


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you not open the link...â€¦....that is where you will find the joke.
She openly admits taking the money.

Click to expand...

A donation was made to her constituency office from the director of a "fracking company" that has never actually carried out any fracking, in a "personal capacity". Therefore the donation was not "from a fracking company", it was from a director of that company. It also wasn't a donation to her personally but to her constituency office. But let's not let the facts get in the way of your argument.

I read the story earlier that reported that the SNP had been blocked from distributing this leaflet because it wasn't true or as the court put it was "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory". My question was why you felt it was OK to post information that a court has ruled as "defamatory" on a public forum.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

Not sure why anyone remotely thinks fracking is a good idea, especially when you hear the process.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			This surely has to be the job of the social media companies. It's like the wild west as legislation tries in vain to catch up with internet explosion. It's not acceptable that companies like FB and Twitter don't accept the responsibilities as curators of their content like other media sources have to,
		
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In such a fast moving environment as social media the companies couldn't keep up and once read, copy and pasted any message is on the net for life


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## ger147 (Nov 27, 2019)

Posted this on the wrong thread before - Labour pledging to scrap the IR35 reforms about to hit the private sector...

https://www.contractoruk.com/news/0014347labour_surprise_pledge_scrap_ir35_reform_april_2020.html


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## Dan2501 (Nov 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199632240873025536


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			A donation was made to her constituency office from the director of a "fracking company" that has never actually carried out any fracking, in a "personal capacity". Therefore the donation was not "from a fracking company", it was from a director of that company. It also wasn't a donation to her personally but to her constituency office. But let's not let the facts get in the way of your argument.

I read the story earlier that reported that the SNP had been blocked from distributing this leaflet because it wasn't true or as the court put it was "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory". My question was why you felt it was OK to post information that a court has ruled as "defamatory" on a public forum.
		
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To point out the double standards of some of our Parliamentary leaders.
Leader of Anti fracking political party accepts money for her constituency office  from commercial company who have gained fracking licences.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To point out the double standards of some of our Parliamentary leaders.
*Leader of Anti fracking political party leader accepts money for her constituency office  from commercial company* who have gained fracking licences.
		
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No she didn't. You seem to be struggling to grasp this point so I'll try again. She (or her office) accepted a personal donation from the director of a company that holds a fracking license *NOT* from a commercial company. I really didn't think this was so hard to grasp. If the SNP leaflet had stated that "Jo Swinson's office had received a donation of Â£14k from the director of a company which holds a license to carry out fracking" then that would have been factually accurate. To state that Jo Swinson received money from a fracking company isn't and is in fact "false in substance, materially inaccurate and defamatory". 

But I guess that the aims of the SNP have been met because they have got this information out into the public domain and many thousands of people will now be sharing the original story on social media despite it not being true. Spreading fake news Doon? Maybe you should change your forum handle to "Trump frae Troon" or Doon frae Trump".


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

Dan2501 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199632240873025536

Click to expand...

The NHS market has always been open to the USA. Being able to sell equipment and drugs into the NHS has always gone on. The NHS has very recently concluded a deal on the purchase of cystic fibrosis drugs that saw a significant reduction in price. 

Thats a million miles away from the Tories are going to sell the NHS.

I look forward to seeing the detail Corbyn has just announced to see if it is a sale of the NHS or is it acknowledgement of current practices. If it is a sale it drives a coach and horses through the Tories promises. That said, the NHS is sacrosanct... would any party agree to a sale? It would be political suicide for many, many years to come.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 27, 2019)

Dan2501 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199632240873025536

Click to expand...

And at the end of the Press Conference  Barry Gardner admitted that, like a lot of other potential scenarios,  this was merely something that might be discussed. 

And before I get accused of being a right wing zealot it's just like the Conservatives claim about Labour and the two referendums. 

Spin, spin, spin and yet more spin.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199653701956308992


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Let's see what's in the document and then we can judge whether the document contradicts anything that Johnson and his 'poodles' have been saying (sorry about the poodling - but I just despair at ministers simply parroting the Johnson line - though can a poodle parrot?)

_Poodle: a person or organization who is overly willing to obey another. _


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

I don't understand why Labour are claiming that we would spend an extra Â£500 million per week on drugs if the US get access to the market. One example that Corbyn has raised is the issue of humira, a drug used to treat Crohn's disease and arthritis. The NHS currently pays around Â£1200 per pack whereas in America it is Â£8000 per pack. Assuming that US drug companies got access to the UK market why would the NHS stop buying it from our current supplier at Â£1200 and switch to an American supplier at Â£8000?


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't understand why Labour are claiming that we would spend an extra Â£500 million per week on drugs if the US get access to the market. One example that Corbyn has raised is the issue of humira, a drug used to treat Crohn's disease and arthritis. The NHS currently pays around Â£1200 per pack whereas in America it is Â£8000 per pack. Assuming that US drug companies got access to the UK market why would the NHS stop buying it from our current supplier at Â£1200 and switch to an American supplier at Â£8000?
		
Click to expand...

acording to the despatches program the other week the current trade deal means we currently pay under the going rate fore some drugs which we buy for much less that the same drugs are sold in the US. under a new trade deal with the US they want out of that and us to pay the full us rate... in simple terms anyway


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192168909857669121


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			acording to the despatches program the other week the current trade deal means we currently pay under the going rate fore some drugs which we buy for much less that the same drugs are sold in the US. under a new trade deal with the US they want out of that and us to pay the full us rate... in simple terms anyway
		
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patricks148 said:



			acording to the despatches program the other week the current trade deal means we currently pay under the going rate fore some drugs which we buy for much less that the same drugs are sold in the US. under a new trade deal with the US they want out of that and us to pay the full us rate... in simple terms anyway
		
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Sounds like a great deal ... let's do it!!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			acording to the despatches program the other week the current trade deal means we currently pay under the going rate fore some drugs which we buy for much less that the same drugs are sold in the US. under a new trade deal with the US they want out of that and us to pay the full us rate... in simple terms anyway
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, that makes more sense to me now. I assumed that we already had a non US supplier for these drugs rather than buying them at a discounted rate.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Thanks for the reply, that makes more sense to me now. I assumed that we already had a non US supplier for these drugs rather than buying them at a discounted rate.
		
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I'm not 100% sure but it might be the EU trade deal with the US that agreed the drug prices being at this low level at the moment

worth haveing a watch of the program sheds some light on it was on a few weeks ago


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Isnâ€™t some of the spin/concerns that the deal would be along the lines of.....Weâ€™ll open up that (xyz) for a deal if you open the NHS and vice versa.

Like others have said, everyone is telling some lies during this election.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm not 100% sure but it might be the EU trade deal with the US that agreed the drug prices being at this low level at the moment

worth haveing a watch of the program sheds some light on it was on a few weeks ago
		
Click to expand...

What EU trade deal with the US would that be?  I am not aware they have one.

The reason the nhs can negotiate lower drug prices is due to its size, the usa does not have a single source of purchase so the smaller organisations don't have the same purchasing clout.

This talk of privatising the NHS is project fear on drugs (excuse the pun)


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What EU trade deal with the US would that be?  I am not aware they have one.

The reason the nhs can negotiate lower drug prices is due to its size, the usa does not have a single source of purchase so the smaller organisations don't have the same purchasing clout.

This talk of privatising the NHS is project fear on drugs (excuse the pun)
		
Click to expand...

as i said not 100% you will have to check out the despatches program that was about this...i would write to C4 and complain if you know more than them on the sibject


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199667815730569216


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199665756130164736


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2019)

https://order-order.com/2019/11/27/corbyn-claims-documents-say-versus-actually-say/


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199667815730569216

Click to expand...

its a shame Laura dosn't show the same zeel when it comes to anything to do with Boris and the Conservatives.... if this was so easy to find and not secret why was it not reported before...


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This talk of privatising the NHS is project fear on steroids (excuse the pun)
		
Click to expand...

I took the liberty of amending this ðŸ˜‰


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I took the liberty of amending this ðŸ˜‰
		
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have you read all 441 pages then i take it?


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			have you read all 441 pages then i take it?
		
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Yes of course


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

I wonder if the BBC will mention this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199598967018938370


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes of course
		
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the answer Boris would be proud of


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			its a shame Laura dosn't show the same zeel when it comes to anything to do with Boris and the Conservatives.... if this was so easy to find and not secret why was it not reported before...
		
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Why is the NHS even being discussed at any level with anyone!
It shouldnâ€™t even be up for discussion.


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## Grant85 (Nov 27, 2019)

Obviously Labour are very keen to keep talking about the NHS and this has been a fairly big 'coup' to reveal these documents today. 

However I think they want to be careful talking about the Tories Privatising the NHS. There is simply no indication that a Tory government has ever tried or even wanted to do this. Appreciate that wasn't what they were saying today, but it is a line they have used. 

A clear distinction should be made between the NHS services remaining free at the point of need and the use of some private clinics to deliver certain services. In this case, the NHS pays the clinic to provide, lets say Knee Replacement surgery, perhaps when their own surgeon is at capacity. This is done routinely and is / should be a good way of managing waiting lists and NHS resource. 

However goes without saying that private firms are going to gravitate towards easy or routine surgeries. And obviously there would be a cross over point where we would start to become dependent on the private firms to deliver services and it would cease to provide value for money and use up too much of the budget for the NHS to continue operating as efficiently as we would like.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Obviously Labour are very keen to keep talking about the NHS and this has been a fairly big 'coup' to reveal these documents today.

However I think they want to be careful talking about the Tories Privatising the NHS. There is simply no indication that a Tory government has ever tried or even wanted to do this. Appreciate that wasn't what they were saying today, but it is a line they have used.

A clear distinction should be made between the NHS services remaining free at the point of need and the use of some private clinics to deliver certain services. In this case, the NHS pays the clinic to provide, lets say Knee Replacement surgery, perhaps when their own surgeon is at capacity. This is done routinely and is / should be a good way of managing waiting lists and NHS resource.

However goes without saying that private firms are going to gravitate towards easy or routine surgeries. And obviously there would be a cross over point where we would start to become dependent on the private firms to deliver services and it would cease to provide value for money and use up too much of the budget for the NHS to continue operating as efficiently as we would like.
		
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thing is though they might not privatise all of it, only the bits they can make a lot of money from and as with all the other things the Tory's sold off, we were told.. it will be better, more choice more investment.... cheaper... how did that work out with Water and the Railways for example??


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			On 5 live today it was said that one Tory candidate was accused of posting insulting words on social media and was sacked immediately, I believe they said the Lib Dems had one sacked for the same reason and 9 Labour candidates were reported too and none have been stood down
		
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The LibDem was ours and was binned in 24 hrs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

I'm really not sure that most folks appreciate the cost of Private Medical/Health Insurance were the NHS over time to head down a 2-Tier route - where private health insurance provides better/earlier access to services and drugs - as it does now in some areas.  Note that even today private insurance often covers access to drugs that the NHS does not.

So for instance I enquired with Axa/PPP (my companies health insurance provider) about the cost of taking out insurance for my wife whilst we were travelling and my company health insurance was suspended.  With her existing (fairly common - 1:8 women suffer) condition covered it was to be Â£520/month with a Â£1000 excess.

Of course I could get that down by increasing the excess to many Â£Â£Â£Â£s.  But having never asked that question before I was, quite frankly, shocked.  I had no idea that it would be anything like that.

So just in case anyone out there is pretty sanguine or relaxed over the risk of NHS privatisation, and a possible future need to take out their own private health insurance...maybe just ask that question.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is the NHS even being discussed at any level with anyone!
It shouldnâ€™t even be up for discussion.

Click to expand...

But its not... is it if you listen to Boris or some of the Tory IARJ on here


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			On 5 live today it was said that one Tory candidate was accused of posting insulting words on social media and was sacked immediately, I believe they said the Lib Dems had one sacked for the same reason and 9 Labour candidates were reported too and none have been stood down
		
Click to expand...

The LibDem was ours


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

Dan2501 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199632240873025536

Click to expand...

Strange that when Auntie Jo on Today's Politics show asked to keep said document so she could read it he said no. Is the thing in the public domain so people can read it and make their own assessment so they are not accused of being a poodle.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm really not sure that most folks appreciate the cost of Private Medical/Health Insurance were the NHS over time to head down a 2-Tier route - where private health insurance provides better/earlier access to services and drugs - as it does now in some areas.  Note that even today private insurance often covers access to drugs that the NHS does not.

So for instance I enquired with Axa/PPP (my companies health insurance provider) about the cost of taking out insurance for my wife whilst we were travelling and my company health insurance was suspended.  With her existing (fairly common - 1:8 women suffer) condition covered it was to be Â£520/month with a Â£1000 excess.

Of course I could get that down by increasing the excess to many Â£Â£Â£Â£s.  But having never asked that question before I was, quite frankly, shocked.  I had no idea that it would be anything like that.

So just in case anyone out there is pretty sanguine or relaxed over the risk of NHS privatisation, and a possible future need to take out their own private health insurance...maybe just ask that question.
		
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Can you point out where a risk of privatisation is mentioned in any of the political parties manifesto's or are you scaremongering or lying in your assessment. Or possibly one of your normal trumped up posts. 

You and Doom working in tandem


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Speaking this morning with my son over what he's going vote - he'll be voting Labour in his north Sheffield constituency - Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.  

His understanding from talking with and listening to many locals (as comes with his job and his girlfriend is from there) is that many will be voting Conservative or The Brexit Party on the basis of Leaving the EU - and what he hears is that the local Leave vote was solely based upon immigration - they will vote in the GE on that basis without much consideration - if any - of other social or economic matters.  

Great...what have we done...


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking this morning with my son over what he's going vote - he'll be voting Labour in his north Sheffield constituency - Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough. 

His understanding from talking with and listening to many locals (as comes with his job and his girlfriend is from there) is that many will be voting Conservative or The Brexit Party on the basis of Leaving the EU - and what he hears is that the local Leave vote was solely based upon immigration - they will vote in the GE on that basis without much consideration - if any - of other social or economic matters. 

Great...what have we done...

Click to expand...

He's obviously influenced by his barber or has he discussed this and got the facts straight from the horses mouth or, like you, he's making things up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Can you point out where a risk of privatisation is mentioned in any of the political parties manifesto's or are you scaremongering or lying in your assessment. Or possibly one of your normal trumped up posts.

You and Doom working in tandem
		
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I am not.

I simply said that if anyone is totally relaxed about NHS privatisation; consider the risk of that to be low, and trust what the parties are saying on it.  Then fine.  Don't bother asking critically about the plans the parties might have for the NHS.

However, if you become aware of the cost of any Private Health Insurance you think you might need in the future, you might choose to not simply accept without much question mantras such as _'No Privatisation of the NHS under the Tories_'.

As I said.  Â£520/month to cover my wife's existing condition is no Project Fear - it is very, very real.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			He's obviously influenced by his barber or has he discussed this and got the facts straight from the horses mouth or, like you, he's making things up.
		
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Yes - he's making things up. I don't live there and I don't know his barber - so cannot verify what he says, but I have no reason to not believe him.  He has lived in poorer parts of Sheffield for seven years, he knows the people and the place pretty well.  However feel free to keep your head in the sand over the part immigration played in the Referendum vote and that it will play in the GE.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - he's making things up. I don't live there so cannot verify what he says, but I have no reason to not believe him.  He has lived in poorer parts of Sheffield for over four years, he knows the people and the place pretty well.  However feel free to keep your head in the sand.
		
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Or just accept that he has the opinions of a FEW people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or just accept that he has the opinions of a FEW people.
		
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Of a LOT of people - people he has no reason to doubt their being quite representative of the constituency.  BTW - there are some Sheffield lads on here - they will tell you what Shirecliffe/Southey Green area is like.  It is a decent enough area but it is struggling.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of a LOT of people - people he has no reason to doubt their being quite representative of the constituency.  BTW - there are some Sheffield lads on here - they will tell you what Shirecliffe/Southey Green area is like.  It is a decent enough area but it is struggling.
		
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In respect of the votes cast in Sheffield describe a LOT


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## USER1999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Private health insurance gets even more expensive as you get older. For the over 80s it is prohibitively expensive, and makes Â£550/month look a bargain.


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## Grant85 (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thing is though they might not privatise all of it, only the bits they can make a lot of money from and as with all the other things the Tory's sold off, we were told.. it will be better, more choice more investment.... cheaper... how did that work out with Water and the Railways for example??
		
Click to expand...

I'm not old enough to remember privatised water and railways, but I remember my Dad telling me that the railways were horrendous and very badly run by government. So perhaps it was a boil that needed lancing. 

However I really can't accept that we can allow public services to have profit built into them and they can genuinely be run the same or better with no extra cost and less risk. It is poor management. 

Also I think it's fair to say that on the whole the NHS is actually run pretty well. Currently the funding has reduced and this needs to be put right to improve services and of course there will always be pinch points where targets are missed and certain standards fall below where they should be. I do think a few stories are blown completely out of proportion and the vast majority of people who might not use the NHS much assume it is a complete shambles due to a few headlines here and there. My experiences over the past few years have been very positive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In respect of the votes cast in Sheffield describe a LOT
		
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My son was at university in Sheffield - Sheffield Hallam - not Uni of...so met a lot of ordinary Sheffield lads and lassies.

Since then he has worked in a call centre in Sheffield and for the last few years doing music gigs and DJ'ing in the pubs and clubs of Sheffield - including some of the biggest in the city.  He has been assistant manager of one of the main nightclubs in Sheffield and walks the streets of Sheffield City Centre doing promotions works for the clubs.  He has always lived in the poorer parts of the cities - though for a while we paid for him to live in Ranmoor   He knows and likes a lot of South Yorkshire folks but finds 'difficult' the views that many express about immigration.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Private health insurance gets even more expensive as you get older. For the over 80s it is prohibitively expensive, and makes Â£550/month look a bargain.
		
Click to expand...

sssh - don't tell anyone. 

My Â£520 a month is more than 3/4 of the individual state pension!  And what sector of the population is likely to be dependent upon the state pension as their sole source of income?  Yup - the poorest.  But let's not think that such a 2-tier system will come to pass - rather let's just be very aware what it could mean.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm not old enough to remember privatised water and railways, but I remember my Dad telling me that the railways were horrendous and very badly run by government. So perhaps it was a boil that needed lancing.

However I really can't accept that we can allow public services to have profit built into them and they can genuinely be run the same or better with no extra cost and less risk. It is poor management.

Also I think it's fair to say that on the whole the NHS is actually run pretty well. Currently the funding has reduced and this needs to be put right to improve services and of course there will always be pinch points where targets are missed and certain standards fall below where they should be. I do think a few stories are blown completely out of proportion and the vast majority of people who might not use the NHS much assume it is a complete shambles due to a few headlines here and there. My experiences over the past few years have been very positive.
		
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My wife is disabled, son born premature and has numerous health problems, currently caring for terminally ill mother-in-law.
Probably involved with the NHS every week for the last 30 years, it really isnâ€™t stories being blown out of proportion, it isnâ€™t only the tory party responsible (they only currently hold the baton) the NHS has been allowed to decline over various governments via cuts, mismanagement etc.
Ask the guys who wives partners work in the NHS if itâ€™s got worse or better, I can give you horror stories and uplifting stories but Iâ€™m on the outside.
If it wasnâ€™t in trouble why is it at the top of almost everbodies agenda.
Like myself and others have said, it should be ringed fenced, protected and invested in, I believe itâ€™s the jewel in the crown and they need to stop using it as a political football.
Thank god we have the staff that continually keep the NHS going despite all its issues.


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## drdel (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking this morning with my son over what he's going vote - he'll be voting Labour in his north Sheffield constituency - Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough. 

His understanding from talking with and listening to many locals (as comes with his job and his girlfriend is from there) is that many will be voting Conservative or The Brexit Party on the basis of Leaving the EU - and what he hears is that the local Leave vote was solely based upon immigration - they will vote in the GE on that basis without much consideration - if any - of other social or economic matters. 

*Great...what have we done.*..

Click to expand...

'*WE*' haven't done anything it is simply people expressing their own opinions and voting how they wish, that's how democracy works .So IMO it fine that they have a choice to exercise !!


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm not old enough to remember privatised water and railways, but I remember my Dad telling me that the *railways were horrendous and very badly run by government. So perhaps it was a boil that needed lancing.*

However I really can't accept that we can allow public services to have profit built into them and they can genuinely be run the same or better with no extra cost and less risk. It is poor management.

Also I think it's fair to say that on the whole the NHS is actually run pretty well. Currently the funding has reduced and this needs to be put right to improve services and of course there will always be pinch points where targets are missed and certain standards fall below where they should be. I do think a few stories are blown completely out of proportion and the vast majority of people who might not use the NHS much assume it is a complete shambles due to a few headlines here and there.* My experiences over the past few years have been very positive*.
		
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they were but compared to todays shambles...Brish Rail was run like a finely honed peaces of precision engineering

that will be music to DFT ears NHS scotland is devolved


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm not old enough to remember privatised water and railways, but I remember my Dad telling me that the railways were horrendous and very badly run by government. So perhaps it was a boil that needed lancing.
		
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I am old enough, and state run concerns were badly neglected, being starved of money and run by the unions. They were sold off quite rightly,  made money when they were, and are, much better now than at the point they were sold. I cant see the owners selling them back without a fight in the courts.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking this morning with my son over what he's going vote - he'll be voting Labour in his north Sheffield constituency - Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough. 

His understanding from talking with and listening to many locals (as comes with his job and his girlfriend is from there) is that many will be voting Conservative or The Brexit Party on the basis of Leaving the EU - and what he hears is that the local Leave vote was solely based upon immigration - they will vote in the GE on that basis without much consideration - if any - of other social or economic matters. 

Great...what have we done...

Click to expand...

Failed people by not consulting with them or considering how their lives may be affected  by the social engineering of the liberal Elete. No matter how some may consider others lives have been enriched by our fabulous diversity many dont like the way it has changed the way they live for what they consider the worse.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			sssh - don't tell anyone.

My Â£520 a month is more than 3/4 of the individual state pension!  And what sector of the population is likely to be dependent upon the state pension as their sole source of income?  Yup - the poorest.  But let's not think that such a 2-tier system will come to pass - rather let's just be very aware what it could mean.
		
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But there is a two tier state pension and that sees many on the lower rate who may have made more years contributions only get around Â£520 a month.  No ones finding the money to fix their pension rip off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			they were but compared to todays shambles...Brish Rail was run like a finely honed peaces of precision engineering

that will be music to DFT ears NHS scotland is devolved

Click to expand...

Yup........Unfortunately I have had quite a lot of experience of both the Scottish and English NHS and care systems over the last three years.
From a personal view the ENHS does not do joined up thinking with health and care, this ends up wasting a hell of a lot of money.
The staff seem less competent and the facilities fairly elderly. They also charge you for parking, that cost me Â£6 a day for 11 days at Darlington, not that I minded paying but parking is free in Scotland

Re the railways I am old enough to have experienced both.
The old services were not that bad and much better value for money than todays.
The rolling stock, stations, staff and catering were very poor.
And of course they were run by the Unions so lots of strikes.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			as i said not 100% you will have to check out the despatches program that was about this...i would write to C4 and complain if you know more than them on the sibject
		
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Seem to know more than you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Failed people by not consulting with them or considering how their lives may be affected  by the social engineering of the liberal Elete. No matter how some may consider others lives have been enriched by our fabulous diversity many dont like the way it has changed the way they live for what they consider the worse.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pleased that there is an acceptance (I think) that core to the leave vote in many constituencies was immigration - and not simply the impact of immigration - because governments can do something about impact on services -  but the very fact of the immigration - the immigrants themselves.

And it seems that many leave voters believe that leaving the EU will sort many of the issues they put down to having arisen out of immigration (that they have been led to believe or have not been dissuaded of) - when I fear that these expectations will not be met.  Lower immigration will not relieve pressure on services - the only way that immigrant pressure on services can be reduced is by large numbers of the current immigrant community 'going home'. 

But consider that many of the immigrant community were born here - do we expect their parents to 'go home' and leave the children here - or do we expect them to leave and tear their children from their friends?  We also need the current immigrant community to stay - we need them for all the services that depend upon them.   We cannot have them leave.  And so even if net immigration fell to zero on 1st February the same issues with public services will remain - and they will remain for as long as spending on public services is limited within notional 'affordability' constraints - spending limits that do little more than 'tidy up the fringe when the green needs relaying'.

And so those in the poorer communities -  those feeling left behind and ignored - those whose expectations have been raised in respect of what leaving the EU will bring- in their faith in Leave they will vote for the 'Leave' Party in this General Election - because that will deliver all of what they need.  But what if it doesn't - these communities will be sorely disappointed - and someone will feel the brunt of their disappointment.

They will of the people is portrayed as a collective - therefore what _have _we done


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

There's a fair chance that if you asked those that voted in the SW the last thing on their mind was immigration but I can't prove it one way or the other as unfortunately my wife cuts my hair.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Seem to know more than you.
		
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if you say so dear

maybe you should Write to Ofcom and tell them the dispatches program was pack of lies


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I am old enough, and state run concerns were badly neglected, being starved of money and run by the unions. They were sold off quite rightly,  made money when they were, and are, much better now than at the point they were sold. I cant see the owners selling them back without a fight in the courts.
		
Click to expand...

Starved by successive Tory governments who pandered to the â€œI am alright jackâ€ crowd and then sold them off.
now itâ€™s rather ironic when you read the griping about entitlement but failure to admit a level of responsibility..
Just saying ðŸ™‚


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't understand why Labour are claiming that we would spend an extra Â£500 million per week on drugs if the US get access to the market. One example that Corbyn has raised is the issue of humira, a drug used to treat Crohn's disease and arthritis. The NHS currently pays around Â£1200 per pack whereas in America it is Â£8000 per pack. Assuming that US drug companies got access to the UK market why would the NHS stop buying it from our current supplier at Â£1200 and switch to an American supplier at Â£8000?
		
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"Preferred Supplier Status."

I've seen it numerous times with organisations, and its a rip-off. Sign a contract with a company for x/y/z drugs at a cheap price but end up paying a lot more for drugs a/b/c. It can work very well providing it is tightly managed. In most cases I've come across it doesn't work.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			if you say so dear

maybe you should Write to Ofcom and tell them the dispatches program was pack of lies

Click to expand...

Maybe you should write to CBeebies and see if you could get a job driving the Ninky Nonk ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤Ÿ


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Starved by successive Tory governments who pandered to the â€œI am alright jackâ€ crowd and then sold them off.
now itâ€™s rather ironic when you read the griping about entitlement but failure to admit a level of responsibility..
Just saying ðŸ™‚
		
Click to expand...

I'd be more inclined to accept this if you admitted it was to do with more than the Torys


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Starved by successive Tory governments who pandered to the â€œI am alright jackâ€ crowd and then sold them off.
now itâ€™s rather ironic when you read the griping about entitlement but failure to admit a level of responsibility..
Just saying ðŸ™‚
		
Click to expand...

Might be worth looking up when most of the union trouble occurred, the impact on society, who was in power for the majority of that time, and when the sell offs occurred...


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Might be worth looking up when most of the union trouble occurred, the impact on society, who was in power for the majority of that time, and when the sell offs occurred...
		
Click to expand...

Let's not get into facts and figures


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm pleased that there is an acceptance (I think) that core to the leave vote in many constituencies was immigration - and not simply the impact of immigration - because governments can do something about impact on services -  but the very fact of the immigration - the immigrants themselves.

And it seems that many leave voters believe that leaving the EU will sort many of the issues they put down to having arisen out of immigration (that they have been led to believe or have not been dissuaded of) - when I fear that these expectations will not be met.  Lower immigration will not relieve pressure on services - the only way that immigrant pressure on services can be reduced is by large numbers of the current immigrant community 'going home'.

But consider that many of the immigrant community were born here - do we expect their parents to 'go home' and leave the children here - or do we expect them to leave and tear their children from their friends?  We also need the current immigrant community to stay - we need them for all the services that depend upon them.   We cannot have them leave.  And so even if net immigration fell to zero on 1st February the same issues with public services will remain - and they will remain for as long as spending on public services is limited within notional 'affordability' constraints - spending limits that do little more than 'tidy up the fringe when the green needs relaying'.

And so those in the poorer communities -  those feeling left behind and ignored - those whose expectations have been raised in respect of what leaving the EU will bring- in their faith in Leave they will vote for the 'Leave' Party in this General Election - because that will deliver all of what they need.  But what if it doesn't - these communities will be sorely disappointed - and someone will feel the brunt of their disappointment.

They will of the people is portrayed as a collective - therefore what _have _we done 

Click to expand...

They're dissapointed now so will show it in the polling booth. If you poke someone in the eye it wont make them your mate by saying it will still hurt next week.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

good i


SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you should write to CBeebies and see if you could get a job driving the Ninky Nonk ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤Ÿ
		
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good idea but i wouldn't want to put you out of a job


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Starved by successive Tory governments who pandered to the â€œI am alright jackâ€ crowd and then sold them off.
now itâ€™s rather ironic when you read the griping about entitlement but failure to admit a level of responsibility..
Just saying ðŸ™‚
		
Click to expand...

Starved of money throughout the 60's and 70's. 

Which party was in power for most of that period?


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

Private Canadian renal dialysis unit set up in Darlington, carrying out work for the NHS and paid a premium. Govt of the day - Tony Blair's Labour.
Private American clinic sets up in Stoke-on-Trent doing basic surgery, paid a premium by the NHS. Govt of the day - Tony Blair's Labour.
French clinic sets up, also in Stoke-on-Trent doing hip and knee surgery, paid a premium by the NHS. Govt of the day - Tony Blair's Labour.
South African clinic sets up on the site of the very first NHS hospital, Trafford General, paid a premium by the NHS. Govt of the day - Tony Blair's Labour.

They were just a few, off the cuff, that I can remember when I was still out on the tools.

Give me 20 mins and I could probably list another 15 in northern UK. And that's without listing PFI hospitals or the NHS Procurement division ran by DHL.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Starved by successive Tory governments who pandered to the â€œI am alright jackâ€ crowd and then sold them off.
now itâ€™s rather ironic when you read the griping about entitlement but failure to admit a level of responsibility..
Just saying ðŸ™‚
		
Click to expand...

I suspect you weren't around back in the 50's 60' 70's


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Might be worth looking up when most of the union trouble occurred, the impact on society, who was in power for the majority of that time, and when the sell offs occurred...
		
Click to expand...

so the railways are better run and provide a better service  now than when they were NI?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			good i


good idea but i wouldn't want to put you out of a job
		
Click to expand...

Oh, suit you Sir. ðŸ‘„


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'd be more inclined to accept this if you admitted it was to do with more than the Torys
		
Click to expand...

don't tell me..... it was all labour fault?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so the railways are better run and provide a better service  now than when they were NI?
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have developed a skill of turning what people post into what you would like it to be.  Try reading his post again and digesting it a while before answering ðŸ™„


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## Dando (Nov 27, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Private health insurance gets even more expensive as you get older. For the over 80s it is prohibitively expensive, and makes Â£550/month look a bargain.
		
Click to expand...

Canâ€™t believe heâ€™s shocked the phi for an older couple, 1 one with a pre existing condition is expensive.

Even a thick leave supporter would know that!


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			don't tell me..... it was all labour fault?

Click to expand...

If that's what you think but I tend to have a more balanced thought processes, but feel free to done a tin foil hat at any time.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If that's what you think but I tend to have a more balanced thought processes, but feel free to done a tin foil hat at any time.
		
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you boys are Touchy today


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you boys are Touchy today
		
Click to expand...

Seems you've been rumbled, have you signed up for momentum


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Seems you've been rumbled, have you signed up for momentum
		
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No... they are not lefty enough for me


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you should write to CBeebies and see if you could get a job driving the Ninky Nonk ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤Ÿ
		
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You retiring then ?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			No... they are not lefty enough for me

Click to expand...

If you go far enough left youâ€™ll become far right ...


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If you go far enough left youâ€™ll become far right ...
		
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I presume your speaking from experience


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If you go far enough left youâ€™ll become far right ...
		
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you might not be wrong, once upon a time the right would tease anyone with the red under the bed jibe, now its the right that appear to be jumping to the tune of Russia and EX KGB types


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I suspect you weren't around back in the 50's 60' 70's
		
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70â€™s yes ... the rest is history mate. Viewed through rose tinted glasses, but in reality was just as rubbish. What matters is the future and not making the same mistakes as the past ... social conscience is the way forward


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Meanwhile the champion of the people - the voice of the people - is currently avoiding committing to letting the people hear that voice under scrutiny by Andrew Neil.  Well what a surprise...he's got a lot of swotting up on the detail to do before he'll do that...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you boys are Touchy today
		
Click to expand...

SNP manifesto launch day , they can't find anything baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad in it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP manifesto launch day , they can't find anything baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad in it. 

Click to expand...

How many pages ? 
Canâ€™t believe the Tories have not re written it ?? Boris isnâ€™t a man for small important details though


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile the champion of the people - the voice of the people - is currently avoiding committing to letting the people hear that voice under scrutiny by Andrew Neil.  Well what a surprise...he's got a lot of swotting up on the detail to do before he'll do that...
		
Click to expand...

i wouldn't worry about it he will only answer every question with "Lets get Brexit Done"


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:




I presume your speaking from experience
		
Click to expand...

Education man history is a beautiful thing.

In the end all the bad behaviours are the same


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you might not be wrong, once upon a time the right would tease anyone with the red under the bed jibe, now its the right that appear to be jumping to the tune of Russia and EX KGB types

Click to expand...

Full of 60's rhetoric today, you must be very old.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2019)

Neil v Johnson should make great comedy......â€¦.blustering and flaffing each other to a standstill whilst neither listen to a word either say.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Full of 60's rhetoric today, you must be very old.
		
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i feel it anyway


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			70â€™s yes ... the rest is history mate. Viewed through rose tinted glasses, but in reality was just as rubbish. What matters is the future and not making the same mistakes as the past ... social conscience is the way forward
		
Click to expand...

Sensible people use history to avoid making the mistakes of the past, something that 17 mill+ are trying to do.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Sensible people use history to avoid making the mistakes of the past, something that 17 mill+ are trying to do.
		
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thats nice of you to say that but i hope a few more than that vote to rid us of 9 years or Tory Chaos and austerity


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats nice of you to say that but i hope a few more than that vote to rid us of 9 years or Tory Chaos and austerity 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately a majority from whichever party is required if you want to avoid chaos.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats nice of you to say that but i hope a few more than that vote to rid us of 9 years or Tory Chaos and austerity 

Click to expand...

Your best bet if you believe that is Wee Krankie getting her vote ðŸ¤£


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## Dando (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			70â€™s yes ... the rest is history mate. Viewed through rose tinted glasses, but in reality was just as rubbish. What matters is the future and not making the same mistakes as the past ... social conscience is the way forward
		
Click to expand...

So the 70â€™s arent history? ðŸ¤¡


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## Dando (Nov 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP manifesto launch day , they can't find anything baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad in it. 

Click to expand...

I doubt thereâ€™s anything good in it either just WJK whinging about another â€œonce in a lifetime voteâ€


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You retiring then ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, real laid back sweety.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			70â€™s yes ... the rest is history mate. Viewed through rose tinted glasses, but in reality was just as rubbish. What matters is the future and not making the same mistakes as the past ... social conscience is the way forward
		
Click to expand...

Probably still in short trousers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Love Molly. Donâ€™t worry she doesnâ€™t like Corbyn either.

Molly, 86, on PM: 'I can't bear the buffoon'
https://news.sky.com/video/share-11871833


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			70â€™s yes ... the rest is history mate. Viewed through rose tinted glasses, but in reality was just as rubbish. What matters is the future and not making the same mistakes as the past ... social conscience is the way forward
		
Click to expand...

Around in the 70's with any knowledge of politics/ economy?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Around in the 70's with any knowledge of politics/ economy?
		
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Three day weeks, power blackouts and Red Robbo were  a gas.
These kids haven't lived ðŸ˜‰


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2019)

I've just received an email from the Conservative Party Finance Team asking me to donate, even if just Â£10, to help them match the Labour funding. Their reasoning is that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have a "Â£2.6 million union-funded war chest" which they received during the third quarter of this year.

I haven't checked the figures they quote on the Labour donations so can't confirm them to be accurate, however there is one simple reason that I won't be donating to the Conservative Party to "help them match" Labour. And that reason is the Â£5.7 million that the Tories received in donations during the first week of the election campaign alone. So instead what I've done is sent them an email reply saying that I will be more than happy to help them match Labour's funding and if they would be so kind as to send me a cheque for Â£3.1 million then that will resolve the matter. 

Funding raised during first week of campaign.........https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50508009


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Love Molly. Donâ€™t worry she doesnâ€™t like Corbyn either.

Molly, 86, on PM: 'I can't bear the buffoon'
https://news.sky.com/video/share-11871833

Click to expand...

Or the Red Man


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Or the Red Man
		
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Please ignore me, as your reply makes no sense.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking this morning with my son over what he's going vote - he'll be voting Labour in his north Sheffield constituency - Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough. 

His understanding from talking with and listening to many locals (as comes with his job and his girlfriend is from there) is that many will be voting Conservative or The Brexit Party on the basis of Leaving the EU - and what he hears is that the local Leave vote was solely based upon immigration - they will vote in the GE on that basis without much consideration - if any - of other social or economic matters. 

Great...what have we done...

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There is far more tha Brexit about the election. If i were the biggest supporting remainer ever i would not vote Labour in a million in a million years as the country will bbankrupt within one parliamentary term if these loonatics ever get the keys to number 10. All this talk of hard right torries being hard right is utter rubbish - they are pretty central - it is labbour that have moved the spectrum so far to the left that some of Corbyn's favourite left dictators in Latam will be looking over the atlantic with envy!!!


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			There is far more tha Brexit about the election. If i were the biggest supporting remainer ever i would not vote Labour in a million in a million years as the country will bbankrupt within one parliamentary term if these loonatics ever get the keys to number 10. All this talk of hard right torries being hard right is utter rubbish - they are pretty central - it is labbour that have moved the spectrum so far to the left that some of Corbyn's favourite left dictators in Latam will be looking over the atlantic with envy!!!
		
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A rare post for you here Slasher but absolutely spot on !


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			There is far more tha Brexit about the election. If i were the biggest supporting remainer ever i would not vote Labour in a million in a million years as the country will bbankrupt within one parliamentary term if these loonatics ever get the keys to number 10. All this talk of hard right torries being hard right is utter rubbish - they are pretty central - it is labbour that have moved the spectrum so far to the left that some of Corbyn's favourite left dictators in Latam will be looking over the atlantic with envy!!!
		
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Central Tories ... Rees Mogg? Can I have a glass of what your drinking?


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			A rare post for you here Slasher but absolutely spot on !
		
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no time Chris although some of the drivel posted on here could make me wish for a bit more spare time - but i am deeply worried what will happen if these ant-semite, marxist, economic idiots ever get in - the biggest threat i have seen to the country in my lifetime - hopefully the rejuvinated left will be sent packing at this election and diaappear for another generation or more (or hopefully forever) and we can have a sensible left of centre party to offer a genuine choice - bring back David Miliband or someone similar!!!


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Central Tories ... Rees Mogg? Can I have a glass of what your drinking?
		
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is he the PM?? Did he get his way?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			is he the PM?? Did he get his way?
		
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He is the one who lied to the queen on Borisâ€™ behalf ..


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Central Tories ... Rees Mogg? Can I have a glass of what your drinking?
		
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Lots more money for the NHS, Police, infrastructure and many other departments. A decade on from 10% budget defecits caused by the largesse of the last labour government at exactly the wrong time in the economic cycle is now largely behind us - so an investment led policy agenda is on the cards - doesn't sound very right-wing to me!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Lots more money for the NHS, Police, infrastructure and many other departments. A decade on from 10% budget defecits caused by the largesse of the last labour government at exactly the wrong time in the economic cycle is now largely behind us - so an investment led policy agenda is on the cards - doesn't sound very right-wing to me!
		
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10 years of winding down public services, forcing a weak economy through a Brexit muddle .. yeah great management. Have they chased down the tax issues, no they just want to look after themselves. 
Their manifesto promised nothing positive just more poor management and constant negative propaganda about the competition.. when you have to banter, youâ€™ve no game.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			10 years of winding down public services, forcing a weak economy through a Brexit muddle .. yeah great management. Have they chased down the tax issues, no they just want to look after themselves.
Their manifesto promised nothing positive just more poor management and constant negative propaganda about the competition.. when you have to banter, youâ€™ve no game.
		
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When you are borrowing 1oobn a year more than you are earning do you carry on thinking that others will finance your defecit or do you institute logical economic policies and try and balance the books? Talk about a tough job but it was the only choice - a hard one but necessary. If people think there was any other way they are mad


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			There is far more tha Brexit about the election. If i were the biggest supporting remainer ever i would not vote Labour in a million in a million years as the country will bbankrupt within one parliamentary term if these loonatics ever get the keys to number 10. All this talk of hard right torries being hard right is utter rubbish - they are pretty central - it is labbour that have moved the spectrum so far to the left that some of Corbyn's favourite left dictators in Latam will be looking over the atlantic with envy!!!
		
Click to expand...

There is for some but not for a lot of others


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Your best bet if you believe that is Wee Krankie getting her vote ðŸ¤£
		
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who says i won't be


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Central Tories ... Rees Mogg? Can I have a glass of what your drinking?
		
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So you judge all those that might support the Torys on a handful of MPs. Does that make all Labour supporters Marxist or should we try and be a little sensible about this.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			When you are borrowing 1oobn a year more than you are earning do you carry on thinking that others will finance your defecit or do you institute logical economic policies and try and balance the books? Talk about a tough job but it was the only choice - a hard one but necessary. If people think there was any other way they are mad
		
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all well and good but what about the 70 billion in tax cuts given out by the torys in that time... i suppose they were necassary too?


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all well and good but what about the 70 billion in tax cuts given out by the torys in that time... i suppose they were necassary too?
		
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We can all moan about who benefits from this and that but for a party to pledge an unfunded Â£54 billion hit on the public purse could be described as just a tad reckless.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all well and good but what about the 70 billion in tax cuts given out by the torys in that time... i suppose they were necassary too?
		
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Its necessary to make work worthwhile so people will do it and pay tax so the Government can fund things.  To redistribute wealth you have to earn it first.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We can all moan about who benefits from this and that but for a party to pledge an unfunded Â£54 billion hit on the public purse could be described as just a tad reckless.
		
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Well, on top of the other Â£85 Billion and the cost of Nationalisation.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We can all moan about who benefits from this and that but for a party to pledge an unfunded Â£54 billion hit on the public purse could be described as just a tad reckless.
		
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we can, but when you are being told, we need to tighten our belts, cuts are needed, we are all in this together.. etc...how does it look when you give significant tax cuts to the wealthy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We can all moan about who benefits from this and that but for a party to pledge an unfunded Â£54 billion hit on the public purse could be described as just a tad reckless.
		
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The Â£70billion is a fact, the waspi money is a pledge, is it really comparable? 
Was the 21,000 Police cuts justifiable against Â£70Billion in tax breaks


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He is the one who lied to the queen on Borisâ€™ behalf ..
		
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The Supreme Court confirmed that no one lied


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The Â£70billion is a fact, the waspi money is a pledge, is it really comparable?
Was the 21,000 Police cuts justifiable against Â£70Billion in tax breaks
		
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At least they can pay the Â£58m with the money they're recouping by ending the married allowance, which they're embarrassed to talk about.

Jeez, roll on the 13th Dec so that we can end the willy waving competition.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The Â£70billion is a fact, the waspi money is a pledge, is it really comparable?
Was the 21,000 Police cuts justifiable against Â£70Billion in tax breaks
		
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Mate it wasn't a pledge it came out of the hat the day after BJ was tackled about it during the leaders debate. There were no costing s for it in the "grey book" as proven in the AN interview yesterday.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			At least they can pay the Â£58m with the money they're recouping by ending the married allowance, which they're embarrassed to talk about.

Jeez, roll on the 13th Dec so that we can end the willy waving competition.
		
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Unfortunately Bri, all Iâ€™m seeing from others is the Labour scare stories to avoid discussing the facts of the last 9 years.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please ignore me, as your reply makes no sense.

Click to expand...

If you listen to the video you posted the Woman said she will not vote for the 'Red Man' (Corbyn) ðŸ™„


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The Â£70billion is a fact, the waspi money is a pledge, is it really comparable?
Was the 21,000 Police cuts justifiable against Â£70Billion in tax breaks
		
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but it was needed paul so those who got the cut in tax could pay more

it was to stimulate the economy.... a great way to stimulate it by sticking up VAT 5%


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			all well and good but what about the 70 billion in tax cuts given out by the torys in that time... i suppose they were necassary too?[/QUOTE

and cutting taxes is bad why? It leeds to more fiscal receipts and thus a bigger economy, as has been proven many times (first article i found below) - and hence why the fairy-tale Corbyn/McDonnell bad-joke agenda will inevitably lead to the brunt of the extra being financed by the bulk of the population as investors desert the country, inovation dries up etc etc!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepa...uts-increase-government-revenue/#630180e34bf2

Click to expand...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So you judge all those that might support the Torys on a handful of MPs. Does that make all Labour supporters Marxist or should we try and be a little sensible about this.
		
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Good point so why do you and the other Tory fan boys keep tarring all the labour MPâ€™s?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Mate it wasn't a pledge it came out of the hat the day after BJ was tackled about it during the leaders debate. There were no costing s for it in the "grey book" as proven in the AN interview yesterday.
		
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If they donâ€™t win the election itâ€™s hot air! The Â£70billion in tax breaks are facts.
Try defending that rather than using something which may not happen.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Supreme Court confirmed that no one lied
		
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So they told them to get back to work ASAP? Yeah they lied general political chicanery


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you listen to the video you posted the Woman said she will not vote for the 'Red Man' (Corbyn) ðŸ™„
		
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And I started my post by saying she didnâ€™t like Corbyn either.
Try reading the post than playing the poster.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately Bri, all Iâ€™m seeing from others is the Labour scare stories to avoid discussing the facts of the last 9 years.
		
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I've probably explained that to you more than once but I guess it doesn't seem to register.  Austerity = Fixing Labours tanked economy.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Good point so why do you and the other Tory fan boys keep tarring all the labour MPâ€™s?
		
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Why do you think I'm a Tory, hating the way that the Marxist and Momentum have taken over the Labour Party doesn't make me a Tory, it just reduces my voting options


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And I started my post by saying she didnâ€™t like Corbyn either.
Try reading the post than playing the poster.

Click to expand...

Jeez, you said my remark made no sense when I said she also didnt like the 'Red Man ' as she called him.
Sort yourself out man.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Jeez, you said my remark made no sense when I said she also didnt like the 'Red Man ' as she called him.
Sort yourself out man.
		
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I'm not sure you read his post correctly


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			we can, but when you are being told, we need to tighten our belts, cuts are needed, we are all in this together.. etc...how does it look when you give significant tax cuts to the wealthy.
		
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Sometimes a picture can do more than words!!


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

it s didn't though.. heres a link of my own

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/11/how-tax-cuts-rich-have-cost-country-dear


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure you read his post correctly
		
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I did. He never used the term 'Red Man' only 'Bufoon'   just balancing the terms.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Sometimes a picture can do more than words!!

View attachment 28637

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Yes it really does


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I did. He never used the term 'Red Man' only 'Bufoon'   just balancing the terms.
		
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No I didnâ€™t, thatâ€™s the headline Sky put on the link I copied.
As I say, you played the poster and not the post.
No need to apologise as it will be through gritted teeth.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

good evidence from The New Statesman and Unison! Even the Guardian can recognise the facts!

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-income-tax-revenues-institute-fiscal-studies 

Britainâ€™s overall tax take â€“ revenues as a share of annual national income â€“ stood at 34.4%, its highest sustained level since it was on its way down from the high levels seen during the second world war. 

YET....

In research underlining the dual nature of Britainâ€™s income tax structure, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said above-inflation increases in the personal allowance to Â£12,500 a year meant 42% of adults paid no income tax. 

So, the tax paid by the richest has hgone up under the tory government and is near record levels - and more of the poorest pay no tax. Yet you still bang on with this same theory of tax breaks for the rich. The facts are the facts and no amount of spinning them in any socialist-leaning fashion will distort the truth and economic sense of tax policy. The squeezed middle-income (definitions vary on what that is so i am not debating if someone on 80k or 123k is rich - People earning 100k to 125k are paying 62% marginal tax and that is plain wrong and more than someone earning 5 million). Britain is overdue a tax break - and it will do the country good. Roll on when that happens. It looks unlikely to happen due to spending priorities and perceptions of tax breaks for the rich, but the middle and upper earners - not millionaires or any form of tax dodgers - have bourne the burden of getting our defecit down - but that also needs to change!


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes it really does

View attachment 28639

Click to expand...


that is a completely differnt point!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			that is a completely differnt point!
		
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I disagree, itâ€™s been proved that giving the rich more money doesnâ€™t mean it filters down.
What youâ€™re missing out is the amount of people who have had austerity forced on them via benefit cuts, bedroom tax etc, the gap between the rich and poor has widened.
Over a 100,000 deaths linked to austerity? Increase foodbanks etc.
As for Labour creating this, it was world wide financial collapse, blaming it all on Labour is a myth perpetuated by the right.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So they told them to get back to work ASAP? Yeah they lied general political chicanery
		
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The Supreme Court made new law.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

i have to say i'm really looking forward to the debate on C4 on Thursday with the party leaders will discuss Climate Change... esp the looks on the faces of the peaople asking questions of Boris ... if he turns up of course... i'm sure "get Brexit Done " will be a great relief to many of them


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## Tashyboy (Nov 27, 2019)

http://news.sky.com/story/general-e...set-for-majority-with-359-seats-poll-11871956

Hmmm. It predicted the last election spot on.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i have to say i'm really looking forward to the debate on C4 on Thursday with the party leaders will discuss Climate Change... esp the looks on the faces of the peaople asking questions of Boris ... if he turns up of course... i'm sure "get Brexit Done " will be a great relief to many of them

Click to expand...

Just so long as we dont keep hearing "Scotland must decide it's own future" either ðŸ˜£


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just so long as we dont keep hearing "Scotland must decide it's own future" either ðŸ˜£
		
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there is no need Scotland has quite a few green success story's and is already doing a fair bit, just ask Donald


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree, itâ€™s been proved that giving the rich more money doesnâ€™t mean it filters down.
What youâ€™re missing out is the amount of people who have had austerity forced on them via benefit cuts, bedroom tax etc, the gap between the rich and poor has widened.
Over a 100,000 deaths linked to austerity? Increase foodbanks etc.
As for Labour creating this, it was world wide financial collapse, blaming it all on Labour is a myth perpetuated by the right.
		
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I am not ignoring distortions and hardship but the burden for retsoring the finances has been bourne by the higher earners. I am not sure how you can solve the other problems but saying that it is the fault of the wealthiest is not the answer. I am all for closing tax breaks and fiddles used by some who have made it rich and would love to see the end of offshoring tax liabilities to low tax countries - but these issues are not the same as trying to portray the wealthier and especially upper-middle earners as not having paid more tax despite an increasingly heavy tax burden. There needs to be more wealth equality but that is even more stark if you look at tin-pot left dictator countries like Venezuela - raising wages and quality of life for everyone is the goal - but that has far more chance of happening under the current Tory option than Labour, which will end up ruining the show for everyone





 - this is what Corbyn and McDonnel want - and the current reality of what the world's biggest oil-reserve country has become, where the ruling socialists have ruined the country and stole all the money. 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155271860216939


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			I am not ignoring distortions and hardship but the burden for retsoring the finances has been bourne by the higher earners. I am not sure how you can solve the other problems but saying that it is the fault of the wealthiest is not the answer. I am all for closing tax breaks and fiddles used by some who have made it rich and would love to see the end of offshoring tax liabilities to low tax countries - but these issues are not the same as trying to portray the wealthier and especially upper-middle earners as not having paid more tax despite an increasingly heavy tax burden. There needs to be more wealth equality but that is even more stark if you look at tin-pot left dictator countries like Venezuela - raising wages and quality of life for everyone is the goal - but that has far more chance of happening under the current Tory option than Labour, which will end up ruining the show for everyone





 - this is what Corbyn and McDonnel want - and the current reality of what the world's biggest oil-reserve country has become, where the ruling socialists have ruined the country and stole all the money.



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155271860216939



Click to expand...

And I agree about levelling the tax burden, the issue with the austerity measures was they hit the poorest the hardest, we have to remember they also found Â£100billion to bail out the banks and put Â£1trillion up as guarantee for bank loans, we are still owed Â£27billion from banks.
Iâ€™m not blaming the rich for austerity, Iâ€™m blaming the tories for making it unfair, yes it needed addressing, but the bulk of the responsibility for sorting it out was aimed at the most vulnerable.

Edit: For all my socialist views Iâ€™ve stated on here many times I do not like Corbyn or McDonnell and would happily see them replaced.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree, itâ€™s been proved that giving the rich more money doesnâ€™t mean it filters down.
What youâ€™re missing out is the amount of people who have had austerity forced on them via benefit cuts, bedroom tax etc, the gap between the rich and poor has widened.
Over a 100,000 deaths linked to austerity? Increase foodbanks etc.
As for Labour creating this, it was world wide financial collapse, blaming it all on Labour is a myth perpetuated by the right.
		
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If its not a different case then rather than divert into a rant on foodbanks etc then explain to us what the relevance is between the tax paid by the top 1% of earners and the UK GDP per Capita as shown in your graph.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If its not a different case then rather than divert into a rant on foodbanks etc then explain to us what the relevance is between the tax paid by the top 1% of earners and the UK GDP per Capita as shown in your graph.
		
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Go away, youâ€™ve embarrassed yourself enough for 1 night.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Go away, youâ€™ve embarrassed yourself enough for 1 night.
		
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Oh I see, rather than explaining your post you revert to the socialist norm of dodging the question and throwing out insults.   If you can't explain it then just say so and we can move on


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh I see, rather than explaining your post you revert to the socialist norm of dodging the question and throwing out insults.   If you can't explain it then just say so and we can move on
		
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You donâ€™t get it do you, you tried to call me out on a post tonight and make me look petty.
You got it wrong and the silence over you getting wrong is deafening, Iâ€™m sure you can try deflect it back at me, just like the above, you get personal, but Iâ€™m not interested.

Do you really think after that I would have any interest in engaging you in a serious conversation.

And for clarification, hereâ€™s a screenshot of the SkyNews Page.


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## patricks148 (Nov 27, 2019)

leader of the Scottish Tories got a real working over on Scotland Tonight... just now... i can see them losing most if not all of the seats gained in the last GE


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You donâ€™t get it do you, you tried to call me out on a post tonight and make me look petty.
You got it wrong and the silence over you getting wrong is deafening, Iâ€™m sure you can try deflect it back at me, just like the above, you get personal, but Iâ€™m not interested.

Do you really think after that I would have any interest in engaging you in a serious conversation.

And for clarification, hereâ€™s a screenshot of the SkyNews Page.
View attachment 28640

Click to expand...

You felt it necessary to show Boris as the Bufoon but failed to use the womans decription of The Red Man for Corbyn.  End of.
I take it you can't justify your comparisons between the top tax earners and GDP Per Capita.  Its OK if you can't, just say so but please stop the diversions.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2019)

Struth, Barry Gardner got more than a little hot under the collar tonight when Andrew Neil demolished him over the Labour accusations of the Conservatives selling off the NHS to the USA.

Labour are now desperate by attempting to weaponise the NHS as a smokescreen for their crackpot manifesto and failure to clarify their Brexit position.


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Struth, Barry Gardner got more than a little hot under the collar tonight when Andrew Neil demolished him over the Labour accusations of the Conservatives selling off the NHS to the USA.

Labour are now desperate by attempting to weaponise the NHS as a smokescreen for their crackpot manifesto and failure to clarify their Brexit position.
		
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Gardner is an arrogant fruit cake. He's the first guy in a Police line up for an axe murderer. The less emotive assessment is he's a bully. Whenever someone catches him out he resorts to anger and bullying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  And in Scotland projected SNP increase in seats from 35 to 43 (I think).  For the Union that would potentially be a dangerous combination of outcomes.

My wife is genuinely concerned about the future of the NHS under the Tories as she sees it hanging together through goodwill at the moment - and also fearful that her cancer drug through the NHS will be cancelled as it is a bit more expensive than an equivalent - though the one she is on offers a 5% reduction in likelihood of recurrence cf the equivalent.  And that matters.  An NHS nurse and midwife of some 40 yrs she doesn't trust the Tories one inch on NHS funding and drug pricing.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2019)

To be brutally honest...a majority for any party looks like a miserable prospect from where I'm sitting.
But given the choice between a majority for JC or a majority for BJ...well, Labour frighten me more than the Tories at the moment.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2019)

Paul and Socket, please knock it on the head. 
You are both arguing down entrenched party lines and are never going to agree.

Do defuse please


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  And in Scotland projected SNP increase in seats from 35 to 43 (I think).  For the Union that would potentially be a dangerous combination of outcomes.

My wife is genuinely concerned about the future of the NHS under the Tories as she sees it hanging together through goodwill at the moment - and also fearful that her cancer drug through the NHS will be cancelled as it is a bit more expensive than an equivalent - though the one she is on offers a 5% reduction in likelihood of recurrence cf the equivalent.  And that matters.  An NHS nurse and midwife of some 40 yrs she doesn't trust the Tories one inch on NHS funding and drug pricing.
		
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Does she think they will sell the NHS to the USA?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

The Tories will sell something, they lack imagination with economic policy.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  *And in Scotland projected SNP increase in seats from 35 to 43 (I think).  For the Union that would potentially be a dangerous combination of outcomes.*

Click to expand...

With my personal dislike of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP I did have a read of their manifesto to try to find something in it to ridicule or that was particularly awful. But, try as I might, I failed, and it pains me to admit that. The only thing that I've really got an issue with was from listening to Nicola Sturgeon speak yesterday where she said that people should vote for the SNP to stop Boris getting a majority. Later in the speech she said that a strong SNP vote would send a clear message on Indyref2. I found those two statements a bit contradictory, as with the strong anti-Boris/Tory feelings in Scotland many people might vote SNP to try to stop a Tory majority rather than as a pro independence vote. Surely the best way to stop a Tory majority would be for Scotland to return 40- Labour MPs as without those seats Labour has a very small chance of getting the seats needed to form a government.

Can someone please find something in the SNP manifesto that is horrendous so that I can feel better about myself please?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			With my personal dislike of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP I did have a read of their manifesto to try to find something in it to ridicule or that was particularly awful. But, try as I might, I failed, and it pains me to admit that. The only thing that I've really got an issue with was from listening to Nicola Sturgeon speak yesterday where she said that people should vote for the SNP to stop Boris getting a majority. Later in the speech she said that a strong SNP vote would send a clear message on Indyref2. I found those two statements a bit contradictory, as with the strong anti-Boris/Tory feelings in Scotland many people might vote SNP to try to stop a Tory majority rather than as a pro independence vote. Surely the best way to stop a Tory majority would be for Scotland to return 40- Labour MPs as without those seats Labour has a very small chance of getting the seats needed to form a government.

Can someone please find something in the SNP manifesto that is horrendous so that I can feel better about myself please?
		
Click to expand...

 Not in the manifesto but I think that many of  the Brexit+Independence supporters in Scotland are holding their noses and voting Tory. Marginalising the labour and Brexit vote [projected at a only 2 seats between them] From an SNP+Scottish Independence standpoint it is a shame that the Brexit party lacked the courage to stand for seats that are Tory held.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The Tories will sell something, they lack imagination with economic policy.
		
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Hopefully they will sell Labour short of any chance to form a Government particularly after that debacle yesterday over  the NHS.   What was really pathetic was the way they had NHS staff in scrubs and stethoscopes giving out the papers, surely that must be against the ethics and terms of employment for medical professionals.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not in the manifesto but I think that many of  the *Brexit+Independence supporters* in Scotland are holding their noses and voting Tory. Marginalising the labour and Brexit vote [projected at a only 2 seats between them] From an SNP+Scottish Independence standpoint it is a shame that the Brexit party lacked the courage to stand for seats that are Tory held.
		
Click to expand...

Can you just clarify the bit in bold. Do you mean pro Brexit and pro Independence supporters? That seems a strange combination for people to have as they favour Brexit but also favour Independence which (going by SNP plans) would then see them rejoin the EU. I'm a bit confused by that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2019)

No stranger than Tory voters wanting to leave the EU and see Scotland leaving the UK as a price worth paying.
There are people in Scotland who also want to be out of both unions.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  .
		
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Miserable for you maybe, but a Parliament than can get things done at last, yes including Brexit for me, but a properly working Government not being manipulated by odd coalitions.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The Tories will sell something, they lack imagination with economic policy.
		
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I agree the Tories should have relaxed the purse strings sooner but a choice between prudence and recklessness... as much as it galls me, I go Tory over Labour.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Expect Labour to try and change tack now, think they'll try and do something around their Brexit position.

As AN said during his interrogation who is gong to lead the leave position if they are in power.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Expect Labour to try and change tack now, think they'll try and do something around their Brexit position.
.
		
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Well nothing else has worked for them ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2019)

Labour now to change strategy ðŸ¤”

Labour to change leader would be the right strategy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  And in Scotland projected SNP increase in seats from 35 to 43 (I think).  For the Union that would potentially be a dangerous combination of outcomes.

My wife is genuinely concerned about the future of the NHS under the Tories as she sees it hanging together through goodwill at the moment - and also fearful that her cancer drug through the NHS will be cancelled as it is a bit more expensive than an equivalent - though the one she is on offers a 5% reduction in likelihood of recurrence cf the equivalent.  And that matters.  An NHS nurse and midwife of some 40 yrs she doesn't trust the Tories one inch on NHS funding and drug pricing.
		
Click to expand...

That poll shows what would happen if the GE had been yesterday, still 2 weeks to go and the tory liar-in-chief will hopefully be found out.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2019)

Assume for a moment that the poll is accurate and BJ gets in with a sizable majority..
One good thing is that it will force Labour to up their game, select a leader who is electable in the eyes of the voting public and become the strong opposition that Parliament needs.
JC is unelectable in the eyes of many Labour voters let alone everyone else.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Labour now to change strategy ðŸ¤”

Labour to change leader would be the right strategy.
		
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Don't think it's enough .. the problem lies in the close ties with the unions and the way they work.
I don't mind a union, but for some reason pragmatism has disappeared and they are quite militant or easy to offend.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Expect Labour to try and change tack now, think they'll try and do something around their Brexit position.

As AN said during his interrogation who is gong to lead the leave position if they are in power.
		
Click to expand...

And as if by magic........

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Labour now to change strategy ðŸ¤”

Labour to change leader would be the right strategy.
		
Click to expand...

I don t expect Jezza the Red to appear on any debates now, looks like RLB is the chosen one.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

looks if the torys are considering the risk of not putting Boris in front of the AN too.

Seems as though both party's are trying to hide some assets ie Abacus and JRM


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree the Tories should have relaxed the purse strings sooner but a choice between prudence and recklessness... as much as it galls me, I go Tory over Labour.
		
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Understood but I wonder how much of the recklessness is just Tory press .. it's really a case of just looking at it and saying what is truly negative and what is not and given the people behind the papers there is no compelling reason to believe it would be. 
I really am fed up with all of the information coming through, we are not getting the truth, we had this for brexit and it took 3 years to flush it out .. If it cannot be proven good or bad it should not be stated.
A major misquote was the number of Billionaires in the UK.. JC used a figure of 150, Forbes quoted several sources saying anything from 50 to 90 .. the point is if we taxed these people and if we chased after the likes of Amazon, Boots, Facebook etc who make profit from the UK, there is no reason to say that we cannot make the budgets outlined work - but no one has sat down and shown these numbers and they are readily available to do a high level calculation.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Assume for a moment that the poll is accurate and BJ gets in with a sizable majority..
One good thing is that it will force Labour to up their game, select a leader who is electable in the eyes of the voting public and become the strong opposition that Parliament needs.
JC is unelectable in the eyes of many Labour voters let alone everyone else.
		
Click to expand...

But it won't because the unions fund Labour, they pay and they want their candidate at the wheel .. you will only change it by changing the funding mechanism.
Both Tory and labour have always had financial support from people who want to control them in some way, and there lies the issue.

So in the end you will get the same thing but with a different name and the bits that you are told to be offended about will still be in existence.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fancy Poll on Newsnight suggests a Tory majority of 65+ ... what a miserable prospect.  And in Scotland projected SNP increase in seats from 35 to 43 (I think).  For the Union that would potentially be a dangerous combination of outcomes.

My wife is genuinely concerned about the future of the NHS under the Tories as she sees it hanging together through goodwill at the moment - and also fearful that her cancer drug through the NHS will be cancelled as it is a bit more expensive than an equivalent - though the one she is on offers a 5% reduction in likelihood of recurrence cf the equivalent.  And that matters.  An NHS nurse and midwife of some 40 yrs she doesn't trust the Tories one inch on NHS funding and drug pricing.
		
Click to expand...

Another balanced post. What would you prefer.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Understood but I wonder how much of the recklessness is just Tory press .. it's really a case of just looking at it and saying what is truly negative and what is not and given the people behind the papers there is no compelling reason to believe it would be.
I really am fed up with all of the information coming through, we are not getting the truth, we had this for brexit and it took 3 years to flush it out .. If it cannot be proven good or bad it should not be stated.
A major misquote was the number of Billionaires in the UK.. JC used a figure of 150, Forbes quoted several sources saying anything from 50 to 90 .. the point is if we taxed these people and if we chased after the likes of Amazon, Boots, Facebook etc who make profit from the UK, there is no reason to say that we cannot make the budgets outlined work - but no one has sat down and shown these numbers and they are readily available to do a high level calculation.
		
Click to expand...

Even ignoring the money that has been pledged to be spent there are other things in the Labour manifesto that just don't seem to have been properly thought through. One of their pledges is to plant 2 billion trees by 2040. An admiral aim but when you look at the numbers I can't work out how they can possibly hope to achieve it.

2 billion trees by 2040 is 100 million trees per year for the next 20 years.
100 million trees per year is just under 274000 trees per day (only approx as I I haven't accounted for the extra days for leap years)
274000 trees per day is just under 11500 trees to be planted per hour, every hour, for the next 20 years.

But it's not just Labour......

The Lib Dems have pledged 60 million trees per year - just under 7000 per hour
The Tories have pledged 30 million trees per year - around 3500 per hour

Leaving aside where they are going to source all these trees and the costs involved with buying them the manpower involved to plant that amount of trees would be vast. Assuming it's possible for someone to plant 10 trees per hour, the Labour plans would require 1150 people (approx) planting trees 24 hours per day for the next 20 years.

EDIT - source for the numbers pledged - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50578207


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Channel 4 Leaders debate on Climate Change, boris not attending.
No date set for his one on one with Andrew Neil.

Whatâ€™s he running from? Maybe itâ€™s his lies and the inability to answer questions without an ear piece?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Channel 4 Leaders debate on Climate Change, boris not attending.
No date set for his one on one with Andrew Neil.

Whatâ€™s he running from? Maybe itâ€™s his lies and the inability to answer questions without an ear piece?
		
Click to expand...

Gove was meant to stand in, but I read somewhere CH4 declined this.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even ignoring the money that has been pledged to be spent there are other things in the Labour manifesto that just don't seem to have been properly thought through. One of their pledges is to plant 2 billion trees by 2040. An admiral aim but when you look at the numbers I can't work out how they can possibly hope to achieve it.

2 billion trees by 2040 is 100 million trees per year for the next 20 years.
100 million trees per year is just under 274000 trees per day (only approx as I I haven't accounted for the extra days for leap years)
274000 trees per day is just under 11500 trees to be planted per hour, every hour, for the next 20 years.

But it's not just Labour......

The Lib Dems have pledged 60 million trees per year - just under 7000 per hour
The Tories have pledged 30 million trees per year - around 3500 per hour

Leaving aside where they are going to source all these trees and the costs involved with buying them the manpower involved to plant that amount of trees would be vast. Assuming it's possible for someone to plant 10 trees per hour, the Labour plans would require 1150 people (approx) planting trees 24 hours per day for the next 20 years.

EDIT - source for the numbers pledged - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50578207

Click to expand...

Christ alive, that's a lot of trees ! But it would keep a lot of people busy and that would mean higher employment .. But seriously where would they all go ?
I think people are confused as to how much a billion is and just spraying the term round without thinking


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But it won't because the unions fund Labour, they pay and they want their candidate at the wheel .. you will only change it by changing the funding mechanism.
Both Tory and labour have always had financial support from people who want to control them in some way, and there lies the issue.

So in the end you will get the same thing but with a different name and the bits that you are told to be offended about will still be in existence.
		
Click to expand...

labours funding mainly comes from its members 550,000 more than double that of the Conservatives and from an subs alone 16M i think the unions is around 5 or 6 Mil... its the members who select a leader.. he was elected by the members they wanted a more left wing candidate i'm told by my sorce


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hang on a minute, this canâ€™t be true, is he lying again?


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hang on a minute, this canâ€™t be true, is he lying again?
View attachment 28643

Click to expand...

just a soundbite, damage is done, was happy with it when he was voting for it


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Christ alive, that's a lot of trees ! But it would keep a lot of people busy and that would mean higher employment .. But seriously where would they all go ?
I think people are confused as to how much a billion is and just spraying the term round without thinking
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if I read it on here or somewhere else but an illustration of just how big a billion is.........

1 million seconds = 11 + 1/2 days
1 billion seconds = 31 + 3/4 years

or to put it another way, 1 million seconds ago was 17th November this year, 1 billion seconds ago was 1988.

I guess that also illustrates how wealthy billionaires are compared to millionaires - maybe we could ask them to pay a bit more tax.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Miserable for you maybe, but a Parliament than can get things done at last, yes including Brexit for me, but a properly working Government not being manipulated by odd coalitions.
		
Click to expand...

Team tory have had three long years to "to get Brexit done" and have totally failed to deliver... All down to their own total incompetence... Believe any deal Boris delivers will be merely a smoke 'n mirror one...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			labours funding mainly comes from its members 550,000 more than double that of the Conservatives and from an subs alone 16M i think the unions is around 5 or 6 Mil... its the members who select a leader.. he was elected by the members they wanted a more left wing candidate i'm told by my sorce

Click to expand...

Knock out the union contribution and then hopefully those who wanted someone more left will get the message to turn it it down a bit .
But that will mean the whole country will still be destroyed and the cost of medicine will have gone through the roof, by the time they ever get near no.10.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure if I read it on here or somewhere else but an illustration of just how big a billion is.........

1 million seconds = 11 + 1/2 days
1 billion seconds = 31 + 3/4 years

or to put it another way, 1 million seconds ago was 17th November this year, 1 billion seconds ago was 1988.

I guess that also illustrates how wealthy billionaires are compared to millionaires - maybe we could ask them to pay a bit more tax. 

Click to expand...

Yes I had seen that analogy somewhere .. but I think there is 2 versions 1 billion = 100 million and the other was 1 billion = 1000 million .. so there is an element of confusion


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hang on a minute, this canâ€™t be true, is he lying again?
View attachment 28643

Click to expand...

It's a winning statement !


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes I had seen that analogy somewhere .. but I think there is 2 versions 1 billion = 100 million and the other was 1 billion = 1000 million .. so there is an element of confusion
		
Click to expand...

My figures were based on 1 billion = 1000 million. 6 zeroes in a million and 9 zeroes in a billion. And I'm right. 

Whoever did the calculation based on 1 billion = 100 million is an incompetent fool. 100 million = 100 million â‰  1 billion.


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you just clarify the bit in bold. Do you mean pro Brexit and pro Independence supporters? That seems a strange combination for people to have as they favour Brexit but also favour Independence which (going by SNP plans) would then see them rejoin the EU. I'm a bit confused by that.
		
Click to expand...

Not all pro-independence folks support the SNP. There are some folks who want Scotland to be independent and also not in the EU.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Team tory have had three long years to "to get Brexit done" and have totally failed to deliver... All down to their own total incompetence... Believe any deal Boris delivers will be merely a smoke 'n mirror one...
		
Click to expand...

 You're entitled to your opinion Steve but I fail to see how it is accurate


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Knock out the union contribution and then hopefully those who wanted someone more left will get the message to turn it it down a bit .
But that will mean the whole country will still be destroyed and the cost of medicine will have gone through the roof, by the time they ever get near no.10.
		
Click to expand...

from the Party members i'v spoken too, they all wanted a change from the Blairite center right... i thinks its the main difference in the two parties, Labour members wanted somone to make a change rather than a populist just to appeal to the masses.


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You're entitled to your opinion Steve but I fail to see how it is accurate
		
Click to expand...

most of the current Cab even voted against Tm deal which looked better than the one Boris seems to think is a great Triumph. if the Tory MP had voted for her deal we would have been out by now... Boris himself voted against it, so he wasn't interested in "getting Brexit Done" then was he?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That poll shows what would happen if the GE had been yesterday, still 2 weeks to go and the tory liar-in-chief will hopefully be found out.
		
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...and of the 2.8m newly registered voters since the election called...I wonder how many are young people and also how many support Leave but did not vote in the European Election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Another balanced post. What would you prefer.
		
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Why do you expect balance when I consider the prospect of a Tory government miserable.  I would prefer almost anything other than a Tory government but that isn't going to happen.  

Actually - I would be less depressed were it a Tory government with a leader NOT Johnson.  He is quite unfit for the position of PM - he can't even be trusted by his party to be put under scrutiny by AN.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and of the 2.8m newly registered voters since the election called...I wonder how many are young people and also how many support Leave but did not vote in the European Election.
		
Click to expand...

They could all be tory leave voters, no point speculating.
Just like we were told to ignore the polls, but not this one as this was the most accurate last time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They could all be tory leave voters, no point speculating.
Just like we were told to ignore the polls, but not this one as this was the most accurate last time.
		
Click to expand...

I know they could all be anything.  I was just wondering.  though I did hear a number of something like 450,000 young people registered.  Not sure if that's since the election called or in the last few days.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know they could all be anything.  I was just wondering.
		
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Just trying to save you from the mob.


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

I didn't know the Donald was visiting the UK next week. Will he be out on the GE campaign trail???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Don't think it's enough .. the problem lies in the close ties with the unions and the way they work.
I don't mind a union, but for some reason pragmatism has disappeared and they are quite militant or easy to offend.
		
Click to expand...

It definitely isn't enough but it's a step in the right direction.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I didn't know the Donald was visiting the UK next week. Will he be out on the GE campaign trail???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699

Click to expand...

NATO Summit.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I didn't know the Donald was visiting the UK next week. Will he be out on the GE campaign trail???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699

Click to expand...

Will be impeached by then or on the run !


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Will be impeached by then or on the run !
		
Click to expand...

Wrong thread for that, but for what it's worth he will not be removed from office via impeachment. You heard it here first...

And I'm sure as he's here for a NATO summit he won't make any comment on the UK general election campaign


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Will be impeached by then or on the run !
		
Click to expand...

Probably paying the deposit on the NHS


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Team tory have had three long years to "to get Brexit done" and have totally failed to deliver... All down to their own total incompetence... Believe any deal Boris delivers will be merely a smoke 'n mirror one...
		
Click to expand...

Surely you dont believe that?   We all know that Brexit transcends party lines and much of the delay has been caused by cross party groups.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know they could all be anything.  I was just wondering.  though I did hear a number of something like *450,000 young people registered.*  Not sure if that's since the election called or in the last few days.
		
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I wonder how many of them will be students registering at their home addresses with the election coming so close to the end of term.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely you dont believe that?   We all know that Brexit transcends party lines and much of the delay has been caused by cross party groups.
		
Click to expand...

I believe the government, in power, totally failed to support and actively undermined the people it tasked to get a 'proper' deal to enable the Brexit the electorate voted for...


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Channel 4 Leaders debate on Climate Change, boris not attending.
No date set for his one on one with Andrew Neil.

Whatâ€™s he running from? Maybe itâ€™s his lies and the inability to answer questions without an ear piece?
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe he's waiting till the 'last minute' so that he can attack whatever everyone else has said, whilst leaving little time for them to counter what he says. I just hope Andrew Neil is going to give him the same grilling he gave the others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wonder how many of them will be students registering at their home addresses with the election coming so close to the end of term.
		
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Quite possibly.  I know that my two have re-registered at their current/new addresses.


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## Piece (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe the government, in power, totally failed to support and actively undermined the people it tasked to get a 'proper' deal to enable the Brexit the electorate voted for...
		
Click to expand...

I see the logic here. In my view, once the country voted to leave, cross-party talks should have happened and the Brexit negotiations should have been conducted in that manner, rather than Tory only lead. I found it bizarre that just a few top Torys were going into bat for the UK, not a unified approach and agreement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe he's waiting till the 'last minute' so that he can attack whatever everyone else has said, whilst leaving little time for them to counter what he says. I just hope Andrew Neil is going to give him the same grilling he gave the others.
		
Click to expand...

That is my thinking on it...Cummings might think it a clever ploy - but frankly it seems rather pathetic to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe he's waiting till the 'last minute' so that he can attack whatever everyone else has said, whilst leaving little time for them to counter what he says. I just hope Andrew Neil is going to give him the same grilling he gave the others.
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe heâ€™s dodging it until heâ€™s been well rehearsed.
Wouldnâ€™t be too shocked if it doesnâ€™t happen.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Piece said:



			I see the logic here. In my view, once the country voted to leave, cross-party talks should have happened and the Brexit negotiations should have been conducted in that manner, rather than Tory only lead. I found it bizarre that just a few top Torys were going into bat for the UK, not a unified approach and agreement.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t come on here with your sensible point of view.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe heâ€™s dodging it until heâ€™s been well rehearsed.
Wouldnâ€™t be too shocked if it doesnâ€™t happen.
		
Click to expand...

And I suspect that some won't give a damn as they don't really care about the width and depth of Tory Party policy nor do some really care Johnson's deceits and indiscretions - all that some need to know they already know - that Johnson is their man for Brexit.  Job done. Sadly.  Not ALL; not MOST; not MANY, just SOME


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe heâ€™s dodging it until heâ€™s been well rehearsed.
Wouldnâ€™t be too shocked if it doesnâ€™t happen.
		
Click to expand...

May tried that tack and it failed miserably.


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## HughJars (Nov 28, 2019)

Been trying to find press reports on the SNP policy launch, but seems it's basically non-existent. What a fantastic work it must be that they can't find a single thing to rip on!! #voteSNP


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even ignoring the money that has been pledged to be spent there are other things in the Labour manifesto that just don't seem to have been properly thought through. One of their pledges is to plant 2 billion trees by 2040. An admiral aim but when you look at the numbers I can't work out how they can possibly hope to achieve it.

*2 billion trees by 2040 is 100 million trees per year for the next 20 years.*
100 million trees per year is just under 274000 trees per day (only approx as I I haven't accounted for the extra days for leap years)
274000 trees per day is just under 11500 trees to be planted per hour, every hour, for the next 20 years.

But it's not just Labour......

The Lib Dems have pledged 60 million trees per year - just under 7000 per hour
The Tories have pledged 30 million trees per year - around 3500 per hour

Leaving aside where they are going to source all these trees and the costs involved with buying them the manpower involved to plant that amount of trees would be vast. Assuming it's possible for someone to plant 10 trees per hour, the Labour plans would require 1150 people (approx) planting trees 24 hours per day for the next 20 years.

EDIT - source for the numbers pledged - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50578207

Click to expand...

some guy from the forestry commission says this many tress equates to 8 x wales (in land) for a birch, a relatively small tree.


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## Mudball (Nov 28, 2019)

From the newswires, Labour is trailing BoJo in the polls... 

So how much should you hate Jeremy in order to choose Boris?  This is becoming like the American election -  Voting Trump because you hate Clinton.    Personality politics above Policies & ideology ....   When did we stoop so low?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

No BBC bias? 
But Kuenssberg has now deleted the tweet!


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			From the newswires, Labour is trailing BoJo in the polls...

So how much should you hate Jeremy in order to choose Boris?  This is becoming like the American election -  Voting Trump because you hate Clinton.    Personality politics above Policies & ideology ....   When did we stoop so low?
		
Click to expand...

Thats Labours problem, they knew it was an issue in the polls/ratings they could possibly have  tackled but the unions hold sway.


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			some guy from the forestry commission says this many tress equates to 8 x wales (in land) for a birch, a relatively small tree.
		
Click to expand...

And the logistics and fuel burnt to transport, clear land and plant these trees will negate their carbon absorption for decades- perhaps we'll replace the EU's farm subsidy with a tree planting subsidy and let farmers sit and watch them grow. It might not help food prices through. 

I'm not sure our Politicians think any further than the next soundbite.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Solves the housing problem, tree houses


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No BBC bias? 
But Kuenssberg has now deleted the tweet!
View attachment 28647

Click to expand...

Was the tweet on Twitter or on a BBC site. She's entitled to an opinion, and I don't mind her expressing it providing when she's representing the Beeb, conducting an interview she behaves professionally.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			May tried that tack and it failed miserably.
		
Click to expand...

One for you. There was a piece on the news last night regarding ex-pats voting. It got me thinking, what consituency do you vote in when you no longer live in the UK? Is it where you last lived?


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One for you. There was a piece on the news last night regarding ex-pats voting. It got me thinking, what consituency do you vote in when you no longer live in the UK? Is it where you last lived?
		
Click to expand...

 In the last constituency we lived in in the UK.... rock solid SNP! Nicola gets my vote. FREEDOM!


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In the last constituency we lived in in the UK.... rock solid SNP! Nicola gets my vote. FREEDOM!
		
Click to expand...

I believe you can vote out of the country for a 15yr period. That remains your constituency then for that time?

Good luck on the freedom train, releash the shackles


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Was the tweet on Twitter or on a BBC site. She's entitled to an opinion, and I don't mind her expressing it providing when she's representing the Beeb, conducting an interview she behaves professionally.
		
Click to expand...

Her BBC Twitter account, username is bbclaurak


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Her BBC Twitter account, username is bbclaurak
		
Click to expand...

It's her personal twitter account. You are free to moan about what she has used as her twitter account name i.e. including the letters BBC, but is is NOT a BBC account, it's her personal twitter account.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's her personal twitter account. You are free to moan about what she has used as her twitter account name i.e. including the letters BBC, but is is NOT a BBC account, it's her personal twitter account.
		
Click to expand...

There is absolutely nothing on that account that is personal, it is 100% job related, whether or not it is sanctioned by the BBC it is her professional account.


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There is absolutely nothing on that account that is personal, it is 100% job related, whether or not it is sanctioned by the BBC it is her professional account.
		
Click to expand...

I am simply correcting your previous error. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter if FACT that the account is NOT a BBC account, it's her personal account.

I have no view/opinion on what she uses it for, any perceived bias etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I am simply correcting your previous error. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter if FACT that the account is NOT a BBC account, it's her personal account.

I have no view/opinion on what she uses it for, any perceived bias etc.
		
Click to expand...

I didnâ€™t say it was A BBC account, I said it was HER BBC account, ie, the one she uses for her job.
Hopefully that has cleared up your misunderstanding.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2019)

And there is the proviso "tweets or retweets here aren't necessarily my opinion"
Pretty much everyone in the public eye who works for TV/radio/media will have this


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Imurg said:



			And there is the proviso "tweets or retweets here aren't necessarily my opinion"
Pretty much everyone in the public eye who works for TV/radio/media will have this
		
Click to expand...

Fine, why delete it then?


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I didnâ€™t say it was A BBC account, I said it was HER BBC account, ie, the one she uses for her job.
Hopefully that has cleared up your misunderstanding.
		
Click to expand...

I refer you to my previous answer, it is NOT a BBC account, it is not HER BBC account either, it's simply HER account. The test? She would NOT lose her account if she leaves the BBC and moves to Sky News as an example, altho presumably she would update her username. ðŸ˜‰


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Fine, why delete it then?
		
Click to expand...

I neither know nor care, you'd need to ask her...
Just saying that just because someone retweets something it doesn't automatically mean they agree with it..


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Gove was meant to stand in, but I read somewhere CH4 declined this.
		
Click to expand...

Rumour that Channel Four has commissioned an ice sculpture of Boris Johnson to melt during tonight's televised debate on climate change. And yet he still doesn't want to go on...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Iâ€™m genuinely not sure you are correct as every Official BBC site, Radio/TV/Programmes all start with @bbc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I neither know nor care, you'd need to ask her...
Just saying that just because someone retweets something it doesn't automatically mean they agree with it..
		
Click to expand...

Oh ok.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

IFS report ? Any comments?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2019)

Latest Mori poll for Scotland

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200021931178807296
Predicted seats
SNP 48
Tories 6
Lib Dems 4
Labour 1

Sounds about right. SNP polling more supporters than Tory/Labour combined.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do you expect balance when I consider the prospect of a Tory government miserable.  I would prefer almost anything other than a Tory government but that isn't going to happen. 

Actually - I would be less depressed were it a Tory government with a leader NOT Johnson.  He is quite unfit for the position of PM - he can't even be trusted by his party to be put under scrutiny by AN.
		
Click to expand...

Still not said who you would prefer


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## Reemul (Nov 28, 2019)

I am off work today unwell and have had the bbc news station on in the background for a large amount of the day.

Today seems to be Lib Dem day, every story, every news piece is about the lib dems and how many are changes to them with tactical voting. There is no mention of their poll results showing Jo Swinson popularity has fallen off a cliff and the libs are not doing well at all. In fact if you just listened to the bbc today you would think they are fore runners to win by a landslide.

It's all a bit odd, like the BBC have some sort of remain agenda......


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			IFS report ? Any comments?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, so both are unsustainable, I can believe that. However, one of them is bonkers out there, and the other just a bit daft. The headlines imply they are at the same level.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe the government, in power, totally failed to support and actively undermined the people it tasked to get a 'proper' deal to enable the Brexit the electorate voted for...
		
Click to expand...

And what type of Brexit did they vote for?
The one I voted for was simple, leave the EU,  preferably with a good deal otherwise without one. Seems to me it was undermined by those taking no deal off the table thus allowing the EU to play hard ball.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Piece said:



			I see the logic here. In my view, once the country voted to leave, cross-party talks should have happened and the Brexit negotiations should have been conducted in that manner, rather than Tory only lead. I found it bizarre that just a few top Torys were going into bat for the UK, not a unified approach and agreement.
		
Click to expand...

How was that expected to work. Labour were playing political games and demanding we stay in the CU and Sm, Libs want to scrap Brexit, SNP want to scrap Brexit. it just couldn't happen as they all had hidden agendas that meant Brexit didn't stand a Scooby of a consensus.


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## JamesR (Nov 28, 2019)

I suppose it was the opposition's fault that Teresa May called for, an unnecessary, General Election, and thus reduced her majority


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Ok, so both are unsustainable, I can believe that. However, one of them is bonkers out there, and the other just a bit daft. The headlines imply they are at the same level.
		
Click to expand...

Too easily dismissed that, the next line was the Lib Dems was viable ... so what can we say but we have the reds and blues in cloud cuckoo land, do we want them both to have control of the purse strings ? They are as big as a disaster as each other if you listen to their opposing supporters.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And what type of Brexit did they vote for?
The one I voted for was simple, leave the EU,  preferably with a good deal otherwise without one. Seems to me it was undermined by those taking no deal off the table thus allowing the EU to play hard ball.
		
Click to expand...

Clearly you wish to continue with the scatter gun approach of blame... Whereas, from where I am sitting, there has only been one party in power and they've made a complete horlicks of delivering Brexit... And, unlike yourself, I have no faith in Boris delivering a 'proper' Brexit either... It'll be a mish mash smoke 'n mirror affair masquerading as "having got Brexit done"...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Too easily dismissed that, the next line was the Lib Dems was viable ... so what can we say but we have the reds and blues in cloud cuckoo land, do we want them both to have control of the purse strings ? They are as big as a disaster as each other if you listen to their opposing supporters.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t forget the IFS is just one â€œexpert opinionâ€ there are plenty of other â€œexpertsâ€ who have supported both Labour and tory manifestoâ€™s.
The IFS is especially unpopular with those supporting a No Deal Brexit.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Donâ€™t forget the IFS is just one â€œexpert opinionâ€ there are plenty of other â€œexpertsâ€ who have supported both Labour and tory manifestoâ€™s.
The IFS is especially unpopular with those supporting a No Deal Brexit.
		
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ah I see ... probably very accurate then


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## JamesR (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			... there has only been one party in power and they've made a complete horlicks of delivering Brexit... ...
		
Click to expand...

Not just Brexit!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not just Brexit!
		
Click to expand...

shh they are gods to economics !
They aren't racist either, and they speak for the common man.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Donâ€™t forget the IFS is just one â€œexpert opinionâ€ there are plenty of other â€œexpertsâ€ who have supported both Labour and tory manifestoâ€™s.
The IFS is especially unpopular with those supporting a No Deal Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

IFS appear to be a free for all punch bag depending on a point of view at any given moment.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

In an extraordinary interview on the _World at One_, Unite leader Len McCluskey said that the Chief Rabbiâ€™s decision to speak out was _â€œwrong and quite extraordinary.â€ After hitting out at the Rabbi, McCluskey went on to say:_

_â€œThe reality is this. Everybody should be concerned and sorry for the type of hurt that has been caused by the Jewish community.â€_​Perhaps he saw Corbyn refuse to apologise to the Jewish community and thought it must be their fault. _Not quite the lineâ€¦_


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## ger147 (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In an extraordinary interview on the _World at One_, Unite leader Len McCluskey said that the Chief Rabbiâ€™s decision to speak out was _â€œwrong and quite extraordinary.â€ After hitting out at the Rabbi, McCluskey went on to say:_

_â€œThe reality is this. Everybody should be concerned and sorry for the type of hurt that has been caused by the Jewish community.â€_​Perhaps he saw Corbyn refuse to apologise to the Jewish community and thought it must be their fault. _Not quite the lineâ€¦_

Click to expand...

If that was a Freudian slip, he shouldn't be allowed out of the house without his carer.

If it was NOT a Freudian slip...


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			IFS appear to be a free for all punch bag depending on a point of view at any given moment.
		
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In politics 'Facts' are open to  interpretation - Its like being an 'expert' witness - you know at least 50% of attendees are trying to make you look an idiot.


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Too easily dismissed that, the next line was the Lib Dems was viable ... so what can we say but we have the reds and blues in cloud cuckoo land, do we want them both to have control of the purse strings ? They are as big as a disaster as each other if you listen to their opposing supporters.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't bother reading about the Lib Dems, they are an irrelevance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			IFS appear to be a free for all punch bag depending on a point of view at any given moment.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly mate, I thought it was a decent independent site, but as itâ€™s become popular the knives have come out.


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## IanM (Nov 28, 2019)

More amusement over the promise to plant a certain number of trees, in a certain amount of time..... look at us, we're so Green!!   

(numbers removed to prevent confusion or embarrassment)


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			More amusement over the promise to plant a certain number of trees, in a certain amount of time..... look at us, we're so Green!!   

(numbers removed to prevent confusion or embarrassment)
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199939534282248194


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Â£3M from unite


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200065057742344192


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2019)

Brexit party â€¦â€¦â€¦..how much.
Now what is that old saying about money and fools,


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brexit party â€¦â€¦â€¦..how much.
Now what is that old saying about money and fools,

Click to expand...

Good to see the SNP get what they're worth ðŸ˜‰


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brexit party â€¦â€¦â€¦..how much.
Now what is that old saying about money and fools,

Click to expand...

what do you expect... Russians and tax dodging billionairs have a few spare quid if it works in their favour


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what do you expect... Russians and tax dodging billionairs have a few spare quid if it works in their favour

Click to expand...

They must be divided as to which incompetent muppets to invest in... both Brexit party and Tories are set to destroy the country.. having already made a damn good start.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I didn't bother reading about the Lib Dems, they are an irrelevance.
		
Click to expand...

Well I'll let you know why the IFS assess the LibDem manifesto pledges as being (the most) affordable/viable - simples - the UK doesn't leave the EU with the LibDems in charge and the IFS took the 'leave-hit' to the economy into account


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199939534282248194

Click to expand...

Or analysed further - 1000 a day at each of 300 sites.

_According to industry figures, a professional planter can plant 1,000 trees each day. 
This means that three people, working full-time, could have planted the 887,000 trees which were planted over the course of the year. _

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-entire-years-planting-could-have-done-three/


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or analysed further - 1000 a day at each of 300 sites.

_According to industry figures, a professional planter can plant 1,000 trees each day. 
This means that three people, working full-time, could have planted the 887,000 trees which were planted over the course of the year. _

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-entire-years-planting-could-have-done-three/

Click to expand...

In an area, literally, the size of Wales.....
I thought we were filling in all the greenbelt with the thousands of extra houses we need...where are the trees going to go...?
Anyone got a spare 5 million acres...?


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or analysed further - 1000 a day at each of 300 sites.

_According to industry figures, a professional planter can plant 1,000 trees each day. 
This means that three people, working full-time, could have planted the 887,000 trees which were planted over the course of the year. _

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-entire-years-planting-could-have-done-three/

Click to expand...

even if they only plant one they would have done better than the torys pledge to build 200,000 new homes or get immigration down to tens of thousands


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There is absolutely nothing on that account that is personal, it is 100% job related, whether or not it is sanctioned by the BBC it is her professional account.
		
Click to expand...

Its listed as her professional account is it? It say LK professional account? C'mon Paul, we're all allowed a personal opinion. I agree its cutting close to the bone, her being such a high profile journalist but I differentiate.... BTW, I don't like her as a journalist, and I do think she is a bit 60/40 occasionally but I have no problem with a personal account. After all, as I do, you are free to take it with a huge pinch of salt.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 28, 2019)

Please vote for me, I am nice ans Labour and will do good things locally even though my party are shiite!!! 

*Labour candidate says her party does not deserve the support of voters *
Carolann Davidson, who is standing for Labour is East Renfrewshire, said her party "has totally failed from the leadership down" to deal with anti-Semitism. 
Speaking at a hustings event last night Ms Davidson said she was not going to ask those gathered to vote  for her "because we donâ€™t deserve it".
"Labour has totally failed, from the leadership down, about anti-Semitism," she said. 
So Iâ€™m not here asking for your vote, so youâ€™ll say why are you here as a Labour candidate?
I want to reassure you as a community that there are still people within the Labour party who are not willing to surrender the party, that was once the strongest ally of the Jewish Community, to racists and conspiracy theorists.
I canâ€™t defend the indefensible. What I can do is tell you who I am and what I stand for.​


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Clearly you wish to continue with the scatter gun approach of blame... Whereas, from where I am sitting, there has only been one party in power and they've made a complete horlicks of delivering Brexit... And, unlike yourself, I have no faith in Boris delivering a 'proper' Brexit either... It'll be a mish mash smoke 'n mirror affair masquerading as "having got Brexit done"...
		
Click to expand...

Where I disagree with you is that Imo Brexit has been frustrated by Parliament, not the Torys, not Labour, Not the SNP or Libdems but all of them, they have cheated us out of the pledge they made and its disgusting.   Yes many of the people responsible are Torys but its blinkered to only blame them.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 28, 2019)

Interesting that despite a lot of hate for Bojo (the 350m/day for NHS was plain wrong - but they all lie and misdirect) - he is still considerably more respected than the lying, anti-semitic denying, Marxist, terrorist-sympathiser Corbyn!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They must be divided as to which incompetent muppets to invest in... both Brexit party and Tories are set to destroy the country.. having already made a damn good start.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly believe any of the parties are deliberately setting out to destroy the country... honestly!    I think the current labour party if in power will be a disaster for the country but rather than suggest thats their objective I  think they genuinly believe they are our savours even though their plans are unafordable and proven by anyone anywhere who have tried these policies to end up wrecking economies. 
Here you go then,  explain how Labours manifesto is affordable, where the revenue streams will come from and how the huge amounts of borrowing will be repaid.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			even if they only plant one they would have done better than the torys pledge to build 200,000 new homes or get immigration down to tens of thousands

Click to expand...

Cosmic!   ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or analysed further - 1000 a day at each of 300 sites.

_According to industry figures, a professional planter can plant 1,000 trees each day. 
This means that three people, working full-time, could have planted the 887,000 trees which were planted over the course of the year. _

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-entire-years-planting-could-have-done-three/

Click to expand...

How much do these trees cost or are they being pruned from the money tree.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe any of the parties are deliberately setting out to destroy the country... honestly!    I think the current labour party if in power will be a disaster for the country but rather than suggest thats their objective I  think they genuinly believe they are our savours even though their plans are unafordable and proven by anyone anywhere who have tried these policies to end up wrecking economies.
Here you go then,  explain how Labours manifesto is affordable, where the revenue streams will come from and how the huge amounts of borrowing will be repaid.
		
Click to expand...

It has been pointed out to you endlessly and you fail to notice it ... and itâ€™s more credible than the usual justification about the Brexit strategy


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It has been pointed out to you endlessly and you fail to notice it ... and itâ€™s more credible than the usual justification about the Brexit strategy
		
Click to expand...

Ricochet!!!!!     That one bounced off a number of walls in its deflection.   All the KGB set have pointed out to me are muppet soundbites. Now come on, Ive asked you to explain so please have a go while I put the kettle on.  Milk and one sugar was it.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ricochet!!!!!     That one bounced off a number of walls in its deflection.   All the KGB set have pointed out to me are muppet soundbites. Now come on, Ive asked you to explain so please have a go while I put the kettle on.  Milk and one sugar was it.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on, the wife is buttering a few scones and I dont want to miss this one!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Hang on, the wife is buttering a few scones and I dont want to miss this one!
		
Click to expand...

Any popcorn?


----------



## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It has been pointed out to you endlessly and you fail to notice it ... and itâ€™s more credible than the usual justification about the Brexit strategy
		
Click to expand...

I'm genuinely interested in this. How about doing it in small bites. Maybe start with the Â£58bn to the WASPI's that Corbyn struggled with in the Andrew Neil interview. You, me and even the ship's cat knows it isn't costed. How about not doing the politician thing and admitting it isn't costed? If you want some help have a look at Corbyn's answers to Neil - you can see it on YouTube.

That aside, I agree with him. It should be paid... but where's the money coming from. Having the right social policies and funding them are two different things.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm genuinely interested in this. How about doing it in small bites. Maybe start with the Â£58bn to the WASPI's that Corbyn struggled with in the Andrew Neil interview. You, me and even the ship's cat knows it isn't costed. How about not doing the politician thing and admitting it isn't costed? If you want some help have a look at Corbyn's answers to Neil - you can see it on YouTube.

That aside, I agree with him. It should be paid... but where's the money coming from. Having the right social policies and funding them are two different things.
		
Click to expand...

In fairness, some of it can come from the money being taken off married people where one is working and on basic tax rate.  Although I think Corbyn justified it by saying there were unmarried couples not getting it.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Any popcorn?
		
Click to expand...

No, we ate it all earlier with some of the nonsense coming from north of the border ðŸ˜£


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			In fairness, some of it can come from the money being taken off married people where one is working and on basic tax rate.  Although I think Corbyn justified it by saying there were unmarried couples not getting it.
		
Click to expand...

Labour are planning on planting 2 billion money trees...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			No, we ate it all earlier with some of the nonsense coming from north of the border ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

Must be grouse season.

Or is it duck!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2019)

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...re-better-than-labour-with-the-economy/19/11/


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Must be grouse season.

Or is it duck!
		
Click to expand...

'aggis


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Labour are planning on planting 2 billion money trees...
		
Click to expand...

Mainly crab apple and redwood.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2019)

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Please vote for me, I am nice ans Labour and will do good things locally even though my party are shiite!!! 

*Labour candidate says her party does not deserve the support of Jewish voters *
Carolann Davidson, who is standing for Labour is East Renfrewshire, said her party "has totally failed from the leadership down" to deal with anti-Semitism.
Speaking at a hustings event last night Ms Davidson said she was not going to ask those gathered to vote  for her "because we donâ€™t deserve it".
"Labour has totally failed, from the leadership down, about anti-Semitism," she said.
So Iâ€™m not here asking for your vote, so youâ€™ll say why are you here as a Labour candidate?​I want to reassure you as a community that there are still people within the Labour party who are not willing to surrender the party, that was once the strongest ally of the Jewish Community, to racists and conspiracy theorists.​I canâ€™t defend the indefensible. What I can do is tell you who I am and what I stand for.​

Click to expand...

Fixed it for you. Youâ€™ve missed out the bit were she said it to local Jews in her area, your selective posting makes it look sheâ€™s said it everybody.


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## JamesR (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Labour are planning on planting 2 billion money trees...
		
Click to expand...

Are they going to be planted in the field next to Borisâ€™ Nurse trees?ðŸŒ² ðŸŒ³


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It has been pointed out to you endlessly and you fail to notice it ... and itâ€™s more credible than the usual justification about the Brexit strategy
		
Click to expand...

Your wasting your time mate, once again they wonâ€™t talk about the tory plan, because there isnâ€™t one, easier to deflect on the only party trying to address the issues.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

BBC Reality Check claiming Labourâ€™s tree planting scheme is possible. Must be a lie because of their bias.

General election 2019: How many trees can you plant? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50591261


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...re-better-than-labour-with-the-economy/19/11/

Click to expand...

Mr TJ Coles seems a pretty unbiased source .  Not ðŸ™„

Keep trawling there's all sorts to support any view on tinternet.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			BBC Reality Check claiming Labourâ€™s tree planting scheme is possible. Must be a lie because of their bias.

General election 2019: How many trees can you plant? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50591261

Click to expand...

More than you ðŸ˜Š


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Are they going to be planted in the field next to Borisâ€™ Nurse trees?ðŸŒ² ðŸŒ³
		
Click to expand...

Yes, i think so.  Seems a nice place to plant some trees. ðŸŽ„ðŸŒ³ðŸƒ


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			More than you ðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

Please read post #2272.


----------



## HughJars (Nov 28, 2019)

Christ on a bike, this Climate Change Leaders Debate is dull. 

Particularly enthralling was Swinson's anecdote about visiting a well insulated house. 

Oh god, now she's on about her garden hedgehog


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please read post #2272.
		
Click to expand...

See the smiley, meant to be a joke but never mind.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

More tory embarrassment:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200039178358026240


----------



## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Your wasting your time mate, once again they wonâ€™t talk about the tory plan, because there isnâ€™t one, easier to deflect on the only party trying to address the issues.
		
Click to expand...

I know, I think itâ€™s been mentioned at least 3 times .. I suppose they / labour wonâ€™t put a percentage down as there could be an excess floating around


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## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Tried to have a read, too much for me 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200135158701133824


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Tried to have a read, too much for me 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200135158701133824

Click to expand...

I liked the comment:

Interviewer: Right, lets talk about the ecconomy.

Sturgeon: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland,Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland.


----------



## spongebob59 (Nov 28, 2019)

Icegate


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200135233175261187


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Where I disagree with you is that Imo Brexit has been frustrated by Parliament, not the Torys, not Labour, Not the SNP or Libdems but all of them, they have cheated us out of the pledge they made and its disgusting.   Yes many of the people responsible are Torys but its blinkered to only blame them.
		
Click to expand...

We will just have to be gentlemanly about it and agree to disagree ðŸ‘...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2019)

Is Boris going to grow a pair and allow himself to be cross examined by Andrew Neil?

Will look somewhat spineless if he doesn't...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Is Boris going to grow a pair and allow himself to be cross examined by Andrew Neil?

Will look somewhat spineless if he doesn't...
		
Click to expand...

Maybe heâ€™ll do what he did tonight and send his Dad.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			We will just have to be gentlemanly about it and agree to disagree ðŸ‘...
		
Click to expand...

 ðŸ‘Œ


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

As reported on the Beeb's website;

_"The Conservative Party spokesman has made a bit of a slip-up though, calling on people to vote for Boris Johnson on 13 December (the election is on 12 December, folks)."_

__


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Please vote for me, I am nice ans Labour and will do good things locally even though my party are shiite!!! 

*Labour candidate says her party does not deserve the support of voters *
Carolann Davidson, who is standing for Labour is East Renfrewshire, said her party "has totally failed from the leadership down" to deal with anti-Semitism.
Speaking at a hustings event last night Ms Davidson said she was not going to ask those gathered to vote  for her "because we donâ€™t deserve it".
"Labour has totally failed, from the leadership down, about anti-Semitism," she said.
So Iâ€™m not here asking for your vote, so youâ€™ll say why are you here as a Labour candidate?​I want to reassure you as a community that there are still people within the Labour party who are not willing to surrender the party, that was once the strongest ally of the Jewish Community, to racists and conspiracy theorists.​I canâ€™t defend the indefensible. What I can do is tell you who I am and what I stand for.​

Click to expand...

Not too surprising this comment once you understand the constituency, since East Renfrewshire has probably the largest Jewish community in Scotland.  In fact when I was in primary school all of my best friends immediate to where I lived were Jewish, and when in secondary most of my local friends (outside of church) were Jewish.  Indeed for the worst of reasons the Glasgow Jewish community were rather forced to set up their own golf club in the constituency - Bonnyton (it isn't so these days and is a really nice moorland track with fabulous views over Glasgow and to the hills and mountains north of Glasgow).  The one resentment I held against my Jewish chums?  Well they got more holidays than we did 

So yes - if she wants to get any vote from the Jewish community she has little choice but to go down the route she has.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm genuinely interested in this. How about doing it in small bites. Maybe start with the Â£58bn to the WASPI's that Corbyn struggled with in the Andrew Neil interview. You, me and even the ship's cat knows it isn't costed. How about not doing the politician thing and admitting it isn't costed? If you want some help have a look at Corbyn's answers to Neil - you can see it on YouTube.

That aside, I agree with him. It should be paid... but where's the money coming from. Having the right social policies and funding them are two different things.
		
Click to expand...

The neat trick (or is it a cheap trick) that the Tories are trying to pull over Brexit is refusing to provide any form of detailed economic or analysis of Johnson 'Deal'.  This enables them to say whatever they like at the moment because 'nobody knows' - not even our Chancellor - for whom the economic benefits are self-evident apparently.  But wait - seems that we are being promised in the next couple of days 'economic information' about a Trade Deal Johnson would strike in the coming year - but still no impact assessment of leaving on the terms of Johnson's WA.  Whatever.  I suppose he has to do something.

And back at the DomCumm cunning ranch - social care?  Bit difficult and expensive lads and lassies, so let's not bother with any substantive or costed proposals for a long-term strategy - instead let's avoid the 10s of billions stuff - and hide behind a statement wishing the next parliament to reach a cross-party consensus.  Meanwhile we'll chuck in a single billion quid - a billion sounds a lot to the unwashed but we know that in the great scheme of things it's a raindrop in a thunderstorm - but might act as a bit of a sticking plaster and we can say that we are addressing the issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Click to expand...

Johnson does not lie - or at least that is what I am assured of by some.


----------



## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

Interesting vote today in the EU.

12 countries voted against forcing the issue on tax avoidance by the big multi-nationals. The very law that so many have said the Tories are against because of all their billionaire offshore friends. Germany abstained. The UK didn't vote because it is in the run-in to the election. 

And one of the very biggest supporters of bringing this law..............the UK govt.

But surely the Tories are against this.... apparently not....

12-eu-states-reject-move-to-expose-companies-tax-avoidance


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2019)

As you can't privatise or make money out of selling climate change then it is not worth discussing and definitely not something important to consider in the forthcoming election. 

Also it's probably not real anyway and Swampy Thunberg is obviously being manipulated by George Soros. Much like the British electorate who are being manipulated and lied to on daily basis just by labour. #factcheck


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2019)

I always thought of Johnson as some strange man/child throwback.
Now I think he is more child/man throwback.
Runs away when threatened and then gets his father to fight his case.
This abhoration is actually in charge of our armed forces.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As you can't privatise or make money out of selling climate change then it is not worth discussing and definitely not something important to consider in the forthcoming election.

Also it's probably not real anyway and Swampy Thunberg is obviously being manipulated by George Soros. Much like the British electorate who are being manipulated and lied to on daily basis just by labour. #factcheck
		
Click to expand...

You are correct, how exactly do you privatise or sell climate change?
I've  #Twazzockchecked this and found it complete Twaddle.
News update, Swampy Thunsburg says 'hello sailor and is near us to be free.


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always thought of Johnson as some strange man/child throwback.
Now I think he is more child/man throwback.
Runs away when threatened and then gets his father to fight his case.
This abhoration is actually in charge of our armed forces.

Click to expand...

Funny that, I always saw you as some kind of man/troll throwback.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

Johnson finding time to be interviewed on LBC for an hour this morning from 9am by the Tory and Brexit-friendly Nick Ferrari and his listeners. Donâ€™t know if Iâ€™ll be able to make it but Ferrari can sometimes be pretty pushy.  Though whether heâ€™ll be able to stop Johnson answering every question with â€˜we need to get brexit doneâ€™

Having to laugh at Gove seeming to demand getting onto the debate last night by claiming that the â€˜Aâ€™ in â€˜A Leaders Debateâ€™ means â€˜Aâ€™ Leader - not â€˜THEâ€™ Leader.  I think it actually prepositions â€˜Leaders Debateâ€™ not â€˜Leadersâ€™


----------



## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting vote today in the EU.

12 countries voted against forcing the issue on tax avoidance by the big multi-nationals. The very law that so many have said the Tories are against because of all their billionaire offshore friends. Germany abstained. The UK didn't vote because it is in the run-in to the election.

And one of the very biggest supporters of bringing this law..............the UK govt.

But surely the Tories are against this.... apparently not....

12-eu-states-reject-move-to-expose-companies-tax-avoidance

Click to expand...

Why give the game away ? They want to leave and if we do this is irrelevant. They are just playing.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2019)

Shamelessly stolen from another site but it seems pretty accurate..............


Walking down the street, a Member of Parliament is hit by a lorry and dies. His soul arrives in Heaven and is met by St. Peter. He says, "

'Welcome to heaven. Before you settle in, it seems there's a problem. We seldom see anyone in such a high office around here, so we're not sure what to do with you.'

'Just let me in,' says the politician.

'Well, I'd like to but I have instructions from above. You'll have to spend one day in Hell and one in Heaven, then you can choose where to spend eternity.'
'Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in Heaven,' says the MP.
'I'm sorry, but we have our rules.' replies St Peter
With that, St. Peter escorts him to the lift and he went down, down, down to Hell. 

The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him. Everyone is very happy and dressed in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people. They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne. Also present is the Devil, a very nice, friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They're having such a good time that before he realises, it's time to go. Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and wave as the lift rises....

The door opens in Heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him. 'Now it's time to show you around Heaven.'
So, 24 hours pass with the MP joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing harps and singing. They have a good time and, before he realises it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns. 'Well, you've spent a day in Hell and another in Heaven. Now choose your eternity.'
The MP reflects for a minute, then answers: 'Well, I would never have thought it before, I mean Heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in Hell.' So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down down to Hell.
When the doors open he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and refuse.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the rubbish and putting it in black bags as more garbage falls from above.
The Devil comes over and puts his arm around his shoulder.

'I don't understand,' stammers the MP, 'yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?'

The Devil looks at him, smiles and says, 'Yesterday we were campaigning...............Today you voted'


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## jp5 (Nov 29, 2019)

Honestly the behaviour of the Tories lately is pretty concerning, straight out of the Trump playbook. Sadly a lot of people will think they are on their side.


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Icegate


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200135233175261187

Click to expand...

the twisted ravings of this clown, just show him up for what he is... though he seems quete happy when any Bias goes their way


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## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Honestly the behaviour of the Tories lately is pretty concerning, straight out of the Trump playbook. Sadly a lot of people will think they are on their side.
		
Click to expand...

They are playing their trump card and using the media to influence people. 

QT last night had a lady ask why should JC say sorry again and again about the antisemitism when he apologised in 2008. It does seem this is the achilles heal of the Labour Party. However when you boil it down, comments about Israel's Government and the proactive land grab taking place in the Gaza strip, are not antisemitic and should not be included in the complaints. To say that they are is deeply insulting to the Jewish community who have connections to the holocaust. 
The fact that the Tories are not speaking about these activities is far more worrying, as they are showing support for ultra right wing governments .. yeah it does transcend religion.

But if you read the Daily Mail, Express etc .. you will think that he has set about being an antisemitic and has plans to make ghettos etc .. which is utter rubbish, fabricated by those who proactively avoid tax. 

The problem is no one is prepared to ask is the data I have reliable .. is the source of that data clean ? In this election there are very few clean sources, the TV interviews are possibly the only ones with the capability to be clean. However they have not really got all the information and some people are proactively avoiding doing them ..


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Honestly the behaviour of the Tories lately is pretty concerning, straight out of the Trump playbook. Sadly a lot of people will think they are on their side.
		
Click to expand...

I noticed they trotted out Gavin Williamson on BBC this morning... wasn't he they guy sack as CM for leaking details of national security council  meeting?


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are playing their trump card and using the media to influence people.

QT last night had a lady ask why should JC say sorry again and again about the antisemitism when he apologised in 2008. It does seem this is the achilles heal of the Labour Party. However when you boil it down, comments about Israel's Government and the proactive land grab taking place in the Gaza strip, are not antisemitic and should not be included in the complaints. To say that they are is deeply insulting to the Jewish community who have connections to the holocaust.
The fact that the Tories are not speaking about these activities is far more worrying, as they are showing support for ultra right wing governments .. yeah it does transcend religion.

But if you read the Daily Mail, Express etc .. you will think that he has set about being an antisemitic and has plans to make ghettos etc .. which is utter rubbish, fabricated by those who proactively avoid tax.

The problem is no one is prepared to ask is the data I have reliable .. is the source of that data clean ? In this election there are very few clean sources, the TV interviews are possibly the only ones with the capability to be clean. However they have not really got all the information and some people are proactively avoiding doing them ..
		
Click to expand...

as i said before the bulk of the 65 complaints are related to Israel and its PM...   and by definition an attack on Israel is antisemitism. but that doesn't appear to bother those who wish to highlight it


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2019)

Another Gove lie.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200177465995476997


----------



## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2019)

The KGB are sounding pretty desperate on here this morning, plenty of bile and mouth frothing, could it be theres something spooking them.  Calm down boys the Sun still came up this morning ðŸ™ƒ


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are playing their trump card and using the media to influence people.

QT last night had a lady ask why should JC say sorry again and again about the antisemitism when he apologised in 2008. It does seem this is the achilles heal of the Labour Party. However when you boil it down, comments about Israel's Government and the proactive land grab taking place in the Gaza strip, are not antisemitic and should not be included in the complaints. To say that they are is deeply insulting to the Jewish community who have connections to the holocaust.
The fact that the Tories are not speaking about these activities is far more worrying, as they are showing support for ultra right wing governments .. yeah it does transcend religion.

But if you read the Daily Mail, Express etc .. you will think that he has set about being an antisemitic and has plans to make ghettos etc .. which is utter rubbish, fabricated by those who proactively avoid tax.

The problem is no one is prepared to ask is the data I have reliable .. is the source of that data clean ? In this election there are very few clean sources, the TV interviews are possibly the only ones with the capability to be clean. However they have not really got all the information and some people are proactively avoiding doing them ..
		
Click to expand...

I watched QT last night and thought the black woman who rambled on about Corbyn and his non supporters well rambled. Corbyn apologised in 2008, Eh. What was the question in 2008. The party has got worse. He had a chance to apologise and he decided not to. Others did, why couldn't he. A line could of been drawn in the sand. She then went onto to say Corbyn sits on the front bench with two black women. What has that to do with anti semitism and one of those women is Diane Abacus. I would hardly brag about that.
That aside, as this election rumbles on it endorses to me that every leader of every party is incompetent.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I watched QT last night and thought the black woman who rambled on about Corbyn and his non supporters well rambled. Corbyn apologised in 2008, Eh. What was the question in 2008. The party has got worse. He had a chance to apologise and he decided not to. Others did, why couldn't he. A line could of been drawn in the sand. She then went onto to say Corbyn sits on the front bench with two black women. What has that to do with anti semitism and one of those women is Diane Abacus. I would hardly brag about that.
That aside, as this election rumbles on it endorses to me that every leader of every party is incompetent.
		
Click to expand...

She got mixed up, he apologised in 2017.
She was also talking about him not being a racist!
What are you saying about DA, is she somehow less of a woman or something, petty derogatory remark there.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

Johnson being asked how many trade deals are 'ready-to-go' - or how many are in 'discussion in progress' - he hasn't got a clue.  Sticks a finger in the air and says 12 - then asked to name four of that dozen - nope - not a clue. 

And how long will it take to agree the deal with the EU?  He has no reason to believe it can't be done next year.  Well there are plenty of reasons...for a start - nothwithstanding that we are starting from a different position (though whether than makes much difference I just do not know) nobody has agreed a trade deal with the EU in 11months.  And I'm guessing it would have to be done in less than 11 months to get EU27 review and approval.

Just listening to Johnson - I despair...


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

Boris did a billiant job last night in the climate change debate.. didn't hear him say "Lets Get Brexit Done" once


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			She got mixed up, he apologised in 2017.
She was also talking about him not being a racist!
*What are you saying about DA*, is she somehow less of a woman or something, petty derogatory remark there.
		
Click to expand...

It's kind of a thing with some people in that they have to constantly refer to Diane Abbott. Although there have been clear instances much more recently by others recently where they screwed up their maths in a high pressure interview situation.  But of course for whatever reason is seems at times only Diane Abbott has done that.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's kind of a thing with some people in that they have to constantly refer to Diane Abbott. Although there have been clear instances much more recently by others recently where they screwed up their maths in a high pressure interview situation.  But of course for whatever reason is seems at times only Diane Abbott has done that.
		
Click to expand...

Wasnâ€™t on about the Abacus remark, thatâ€™s water off a ducks back, what is he insinuating by the comment â€œI would hardly brag about thatâ€ maybe he needs to educate himself on her record rather than believe everything he reads in the paper.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are playing their trump card and using the media to influence people.

QT last night had a lady ask why should JC say sorry again and again about the antisemitism when he apologised in 2008. It does seem this is the achilles heal of the Labour Party. However when you boil it down, comments about Israel's Government and the proactive land grab taking place in the Gaza strip, are not antisemitic and should not be included in the complaints. To say that they are is deeply insulting to the Jewish community who have connections to the holocaust.
The fact that the Tories are not speaking about these activities is far more worrying, as they are showing support for ultra right wing governments .. yeah it does transcend religion.

But if you read the Daily Mail, Express etc .. you will think that he has set about being an antisemitic and has plans to make ghettos etc .. which is utter rubbish, fabricated by those who proactively avoid tax.

The problem is no one is prepared to ask is the data I have reliable .. is the source of that data clean ? In this election there are very few clean sources, the TV interviews are possibly the only ones with the capability to be clean. However they have not really got all the information and some people are proactively avoiding doing them ..
		
Click to expand...

Have a look at Hungary and their PM Victor Orban, completely anti jewish and see who is the only Government to back him in Europe or who voted against the EU bill to sanction him.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

Social Care - Johnson *promises *that no-one will have to sell their home to pay for their care.  How much will that cost?  It will be affordable says he.  How much?  He has no idea...

Apprentices - *promising *loads more apprenticeships but no idea of the commitment from companies out there to provide these apprenticeships.

Empty promise after empty promise from the charlatan who will be our next prime minister

And of course sounding a little embarrassed in his dismissing/avoiding answering the question 'where is Moggie?' 

Jeez.  Sadly - desperate stuff from him

_Charlatan: a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill. _


----------



## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2019)

Also just as an aside, the Tories, as have just about every other party, are pledging to throw billions at education after many years of under funding and giving the impression that will magically solve everything as that's how things work apparently, you just throw money at it.  But this announcement came out yesterday that curiously was not in the Tory manifesto https://schoolsweek.co.uk/johnson-pledges-no-notice-ofsted-inspections/ 

And I can pretty much guarantee that, although you can throw as much money as you want at education, suggesting 3 day and no notice inspections will do absolutely nothing for morale in the profession and will just drive more teachers away. This claim that this no notice means that you can see the 'true reflection' is absolute garbage as the way inspections are currently carried out under the Ofsted framework means that is it extremely difficult to hide anything from Ofsted, and having half a days less will make no difference. Just worth considering if education is important to anyone in a couple of weeks.


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And how long will it take to agree the deal with the EU?  He has no reason to believe it can't be done next year.  Well there are plenty of reasons...for a start - nothwithstanding that we are starting from a different position (though whether than makes much difference I just do not know) nobody has agreed a trade deal with the EU in 11months.  And I'm guessing it would have to be done in less than 11 months to get EU27 review and approval.
		
Click to expand...

Forcing  a short time to agree a deal will concentrate minds. The EU know that we can leave with no deal if Boris has a working majority and he wont be afraid to do that. If it looks like a sensible deal is being negotiated then no one will mind the talks taking enough time to cross the t' and dot the I's. If it's, say, a Canada ++ agreement, or another package, already of it's kind, then sorting out the variations shouldn't take too long.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Boris did a billiant job last night in the climate change debate.. didn't hear him say "Lets Get Brexit Done" once
		
Click to expand...

Plus the ice statue did not tell even one lie...â€¦...that's a first for a Tory representative on a TV politics show.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson being asked how many trade deals are 'ready-to-go' - or how many are in 'discussion in progress' - he hasn't got a clue.  Sticks a finger in the air and says 12 - then asked to name four of that dozen - nope - not a clue.

And how long will it take to agree the deal with the EU?  He has no reason to believe it can't be done next year.  Well there are plenty of reasons...for a start - nothwithstanding that we are starting from a different position (though whether than makes much difference I just do not know) nobody has agreed a trade deal with the EU in 11months.  *And I'm guessing it would have to be done in less than 11 months to get EU27 review and approval.*
.
		
Click to expand...

The deadline is really the end of June. Under the agreement that Theresa May got the UK has to request an extension to the transition period by 1st July at the latest. If we haven't got anything agreed by that date (or have something in place that looks like it could be agreed fairly quickly after that) then we'd either need to ask for the extension, which the Conservatives have said won't happen, or risk leaving with No Deal at the end of 2020.


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting vote today in the EU.

12 countries voted against forcing the issue on tax avoidance by the big multi-nationals. The very law that so many have said the Tories are against because of all their billionaire offshore friends. Germany abstained. The UK didn't vote because it is in the run-in to the election.

And one of the very biggest supporters of bringing this law..............the UK govt.

But surely the Tories are against this.... apparently not....

12-eu-states-reject-move-to-expose-companies-tax-avoidance

Click to expand...

not the current Uk Gov though was it?


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I liked the comment:

Interviewer: Right, lets talk about the ecconomy.

Sturgeon: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland,Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

what do you expect her to talk about she's the first minister of that country?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The deadline is really the end of June. Under the agreement that Theresa May got the UK has to request an extension to the transition period by 1st July at the latest. If we haven't got anything agreed by that date (or have something in place that looks like it could be agreed fairly quickly after that) then we'd either need to ask for the extension, which the Conservatives have said won't happen, or risk leaving with *No Deal at the end of 2020*.
		
Click to expand...

At what risk to the economy and tory manifesto pledges?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			At what risk to the economy and tory manifesto pledges?
		
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I've no idea, but I suspect that it won't be great. Personally I don't think it would be the catastrophe that some on the Remain side are claiming but equally I don't believe it will be as easy as some Leavers claim. It's just a question of where in between the two extremes we end up. But then again it's not like the Conservatives, and Boris in particular, don't have previous form for saying something definitely will happen and then it not happening so hopefully an extension will be requested if we aren't close to getting something agreed before the deadline.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Very sad to watch and listen to.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200133994748293126


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



*I've no idea, but I suspect that it won't be great. *Personally I don't think it would be the catastrophe that some on the Remain side are claiming but equally I don't believe it will be as easy as some Leavers claim. It's just a question of where in between the two extremes we end up. But then again it's not like the Conservatives, and Boris in particular, don't have previous form for saying something definitely will happen and then it not happening so hopefully an extension will be requested if we aren't close to getting something agreed before the deadline.
		
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SMMT Concerns?  All just Project Fear of course - won't happen...we'd hope.  but what the heck - we'll have taken back control...of something

*SMMT comment: Europeâ€™s leading automotive representatives warn of catastrophic consequences of a â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit*
_*Mike Hawes, SMMT Chief Executive, said,*_

_European Automotive is deeply integrated and the benefits of free and frictionless trade have helped our sector become one of Europeâ€™s most valuable assets, delivering billions to economies and supporting millions of livelihoods across the EU._

_A â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit would have an immediate and devastating impact on the industry, undermining competitiveness and causing irreversible and severe damage. UK and EU negotiators have a responsibility to work together to agree a deal or risk destroying this vital pillar of our economies._

https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/brexit/


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...ain&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com 

for some ballance for those old articles about Jezza that keep getting brought up


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## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Very sad to watch and listen to.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200133994748293126

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There was another report that popped up a few days ago about living in poverty but having a job.
I am not a heartless man, and don't get the wrong impression here but my wife and I looked at each other and we just said " you, love, need to learn about budgeting and being honest with what you can and cannot afford". 
Although I don't think it's fair to cast an overall view on a group of people when presented by a single set of data. 
The reporter really should have put a few families together and shown the impact across a more varied range, so that my wife and I could not pass such a damning judgement
Perhaps some good old schooling in how to run a budget would be helpful and to learn about reliable sources of income (of which benefits is not one!) and who the rip off merchants are.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...ain&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

for some ballance for those old articles about Jezza that keep getting brought up

Click to expand...

nought wrong with having a tipple whilst doing a repetitive job .. makes it a challenge ! 

But seriously, has he changed his view point ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			There was another report that popped up a few days ago about living in poverty but having a job.
I am not a heartless man, and don't get the wrong impression here but my wife and I looked at each other and we just said " you, love, need to learn about budgeting and being honest with what you can and cannot afford".
Although I don't think it's fair to cast an overall view on a group of people when presented by a single set of data.
The reporter really should have put a few families together and shown the impact across a more varied range, so that my wife and I could not pass such a damning judgement
Perhaps some good old schooling in how to run a budget would be helpful and to learn about reliable sources of income (of which benefits is not one!) and who the rip off merchants are.
		
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No doubt mate, no one can claim all poor can be helped the same as all the rich donâ€™t care, even with the homeless there are those that choose to live on the streets etc.
Sadly it seems everyone is lumped together as seen by the attitude towards foodbanks by some on here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wasnâ€™t on about the Abacus remark, thatâ€™s water off a ducks back, what is he insinuating by the comment â€œI would hardly brag about thatâ€ maybe he needs to educate himself on her record rather than believe everything he reads in the paper.
		
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And so when Johnson said last week (maybe even repeated it today on the call) that residents of South Yorkshire who suffered badly from the flooding were getting Â£5000 each, when Doncaster Council are telling us that it is Â£500 - as indeed what was originally announced.  Does he know the difference between Â£5000 and Â£500?  Did he misspeak - or did he deliberately mislead? Because we know how the Â£350m/week on the side if a bus was misleading, but we also know that the figure got stuck in the consciousness of many voters who voted to leave (according to Dominic Cumming).

And so some voters will have the figure of Â£5000 in their head and will be thinking that that is indicative of Johnson understanding, and doing his utmost to meet, the resident's need.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so when Johnson said last week that residents of South Yorkshire who suffered badly from the flooding were getting Â£5000 each, when Doncaster Council are telling us that it is Â£500 - as indeed what was originally announced.  Does he know the difference between Â£5000 and Â£500?  Did he misspeak - or did he deliberately mislead? Because we know how the Â£350m/week on the side if a bus was misleading, but we also know that the figure got stuck in the consciousness of many voters who voted to leave (according to Dominic Cumming).

And so some voters will have the figure of Â£5000 in their head and will be thinking that that is indicative of Johnson understanding, and doing his utmost to meet, the resident's need.
		
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If Boris and the Torys were smart about this they could make a lot of political capital out of it. If Boris were to say, "Look I said Â£5000 per household but actually should have said Â£500. However, that was my mistake and we are willing to honour the Â£5000 I promised". In the grand scheme of government spending it would be a drop in the ocean and lots of people would suddenly be thinking that Boris is actually OK and he gets a boost from it. Although with the number of times he gets things wrong it could end up being an expensive policy going forward.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

I guess someone never told daddy why he lost 2 jobs!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200362065430536193


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I guess someone never told daddy why he lost 2 jobs!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200362065430536193

Click to expand...

What a p**t - like father like son.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I guess someone never told daddy why he lost 2 jobs!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200362065430536193

Click to expand...

Wow. That shows some attitude.
Johnson is avoiding all debates because the interviewer only has to keep asking about his figures on Nurses and police numbers.
They are indefensible, as his lacky found out on QT last night. People just laugh at you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2019)

Is cummings still advising the Tories ? 
I thought I read somewhere that he quit a couple of weeks ago


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2019)

Rottweilers are hunting in packs today, it's great entertainment.
It should be "Left Wing Rant Friday" not Black Friday ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Rottweilers are hunting in packs today, it's great entertainment.
It should be "Left Wing Rant Friday" not Black Friday ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰
		
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Far better than the blinkered right wing tory/ukip/bnp boys.


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Far better than the blinkered right wing tory/ukip/bnp boys.

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wow. That shows some attitude.
Johnson is avoiding all debates because the interviewer only has to keep asking about his figures on Nurses and police numbers.
They are indefensible, as his lacky found out on QT last night. People just laugh at you.
		
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Well looks like he has undone all the PR work of the last few years to portray him as gentle old duffer... shown his true colours there


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## drdel (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SMMT Concerns?  All just Project Fear of course - won't happen...we'd hope.  but what the heck - we'll have taken back control...of something

*SMMT comment: Europeâ€™s leading automotive representatives warn of catastrophic consequences of a â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit*
_*Mike Hawes, SMMT Chief Executive, said,*_

_European Automotive is deeply integrated and the benefits of free and frictionless trade have helped our sector become one of Europeâ€™s most valuable assets, delivering billions to economies and supporting millions of livelihoods across the EU._

_A â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit would have an immediate and devastating impact on the industry, undermining competitiveness and causing irreversible and severe damage. UK and EU negotiators have a responsibility to work together to agree a deal or risk destroying this vital pillar of our economies._

https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/brexit/

Click to expand...

You keep bemoaning the UK and ignoring what is happening to trade, automation and consumption across the globe - there is over capacity in most manufacturing sectors. In automotive its compounded by the eletrification of the drive-train. Mercedes are shedding over 10,000 staff worldwide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			You keep bemoaning the UK and ignoring what is happening to trade, automation and consumption across the globe - there is over capacity in most manufacturing sectors. In automotive its compounded by the eletrification of the drive-train. Mercedes are shedding over 10,000 staff worldwide.
		
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I am not bemoaning or ignoring anything.  I am simply *quoting *what the CEO of the SMMT thinks will be the impact of leaving the EU with no deal.  I am sure that the CEO knows as much as you do about the impact of over-capacity in manufacturing and changes in technology - but what the CEO is taking about here is leaving the EU without a deal.  Go argue with him.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson being asked how many trade deals are 'ready-to-go' - or how many are in 'discussion in progress' - he hasn't got a clue.  Sticks a finger in the air and says 12 - then asked to name four of that dozen - nope - not a clue.

And how long will it take to agree the deal with the EU?  He has no reason to believe it can't be done next year.  Well there are plenty of reasons...for a start - nothwithstanding that we are starting from a different position (though whether than makes much difference I just do not know) nobody has agreed a trade deal with the EU in 11months.  And I'm guessing it would have to be done in less than 11 months to get EU27 review and approval.

Just listening to Johnson - I despair...
		
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? We are starting from a differnt position?? We are starting from total regulatory alignment and the issues will be where we diverge and where we tweak and where we keep the same. That is a lot easier than starting from 2 different positions on every topic and then having to end up with a third one. We can add to the mix the Canada agreement as an example on each area about what is possible. If there is a will this could be done but i am sure it will be very tough and there is a good chance of an exyension if Boris backs down a bit or, possibly more likely, he will force the issue and WTO here we come. i hope they are sensible and agree a deal as the EU has a huge surplus and would be crazy to be too aggressive to Johnson if he has a decent majority


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Far better than the blinkered right wing tory/ukip/bnp boys.

Click to expand...

For whom the Boris Johnson interview on LBC this morning should be required viewing or listening - and those who eulogise Johnson should feel embarrassed by their leader/hero...

We should not forget that Ferrari is massively pro-Tory and pro-Brexit.  I suggest that there is now not a chance that Johnson's handlers will allow him to being ruthlessly exposed by Andrew Neil.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			She got mixed up, he apologised in 2017.
She was also talking about him not being a racist!
What are you saying about DA, is she somehow less of a woman or something, petty derogatory remark there.
		
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What I am saying about Diane Abbott is she is pudding, forget the colour of her skin. The two questions being answered were about the Labour Party and antisemitism and Boris Johnsons " letterbox comments". Nothing to do with colour. She is not clever enough to sit on the front bench of the Labour Party, neither is Corbyn. I hardly think that using Diane Abbott to back up her argument is a winner. When was the last time I actually saw her give an interview. The more I do hear politicians talk the more I think they have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the voters.
I find I am asking myself one question. Are these politicians as good as we are going to get. If they are, then we are screwed for a long time.


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			not the current Uk Gov though was it?
		
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If you say so...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			? We are starting from a differnt position?? We are starting from total regulatory alignment and the issues will be where we diverge and where we tweak and where we keep the same. That is a lot easier than starting from 2 different positions on every topic and then having to end up with a third one. We can add to the mix the Canada agreement as an example on each area about what is possible. If there is a will this could be done but i am sure it will be very tough and there is a good chance of an exyension if Boris backs down a bit or, possibly more likely, he will force the issue and WTO here we come. i hope they are sensible and agree a deal as the EU has a huge surplus and would be crazy to be too aggressive to Johnson if he has a decent majority
		
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Yes, yes, yes.  And yet...Johnson sees *no reason *to believe a deal can't be sorted next year - indeed in less than 6 months I am reminded.  No reason? Really? He'd rather be dead in a ditch than request an extension past 31st October.  Clearly he saw no reason for having to request an extension either; when all who cared to look knew that there was very good reason.  And so it came to pass.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			What I am saying about Diane Abbott is she is pudding, forget the colour of her skin. The two questions being answered were about the Labour Party and antisemitism and Boris Johnsons " letterbox comments". Nothing to do with colour. *She is not clever enough to sit on the front bench of the Labour Party,* neither is Corbyn. I hardly think that using Diane Abbott to back up her argument is a winner. When was the last time I actually saw her give an interview. The more I do hear politicians talk the more I think they have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the voters.
I find I am asking myself one question. Are these politicians as good as we are going to get. If they are, then we are screwed for a long time.
		
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You obviously have no idea about her education and her intelligence.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wasnâ€™t on about the Abacus remark, thatâ€™s water off a ducks back, what is he insinuating by the comment â€œI would hardly brag about thatâ€ maybe he needs to educate himself on her record rather than believe everything he reads in the paper.
You don't need to read anything in the papers, just google her interviews, as recently as last month. In my view and many other people I have spoken to, I have not heard one good thing about her. But she is not the only one.
		
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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For whom the Boris Johnson interview on LBC this morning should be required viewing or listening - and those who eulogise Johnson should feel embarrassed by their leader/hero...

We should not forget that Ferrari is massively pro-Tory and pro-Brexit.  I suggest that there is now not a chance that Johnson's handlers will allow him to being ruthlessly exposed by Andrew Neil.
		
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"We should not forget..." Laughable! I didn't know Ferrari was pro-Tory/pro-Brexit. An EU company that might be subject to tariffs. I don't know who writes your script Hugh but its grit at the bottom of a bird cage.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"We should not forget..." Laughable! I didn't know Ferrari was pro-Tory/pro-Brexit. An EU company that might be subject to tariffs. I don't know who writes your script Hugh but its grit at the bottom of a bird cage.
		
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Nick Ferrari the LBC interviewer.


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You obviously have no idea about her education and her intelligence.

Click to expand...

Well said Paul. As I've posted several times, she has a first class constituency record and her work on a number of Select Committees and on mental health issues is up there with the best.

Maybe she is now at a level beyond her capability but as an MP, not a Front Bencher, I certainly don't question her ability.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2019)

Still foaming at the mouth then lads. Never mind not long to go now and you can start some real Tory knocking, I guess it wont all be bad though as Corbyn will be put out to graze and Labour can have a tribal meltdown before rebuilding into something credible (Hopefully)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Well said Paul. As I've posted several times, she has a first class constituency record and her work on a number of Select Committees and on mental health issues is up there with the best.

Maybe she is now at a level beyond her capability but as an MP, not a Front Bencher, I certainly don't question her ability.
		
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Always the easy target Bri with the caveat all politicians are bad.
No different to the Labour all bad (and agree certainly some of it is) and tories constantly excused or deflect back to Labour.
Genuinely still waiting for anyone to put a decent case together in support of boris rather than, â€œI donâ€™t like Corbynâ€ cop out.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You obviously have no idea about her education and her intelligence.

Click to expand...

tbf She has done a truly remarkable job of disguising her Cambridge Desmond!


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Always the easy target Bri with the caveat all politicians are bad.
No different to the Labour all bad (and agree certainly some of it is) and tories constantly excused or deflect back to Labour.
Genuinely still waiting for anyone to put a decent case together in support of boris rather than, â€œI donâ€™t like Corbynâ€ cop out.
		
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Isn't that the problem though, choosing which party to vote for based on personality. When Corbyn speaks from the heart I like the guy, but that doesn't mean I like his overall politics. I also think the his lies are worse than the others lies doesn't look at the bigger picture. What is affordable? Which party has the better NHS/Social Care policies?

Equally, there are those on here who deflect back to the Tories - I see both sides on here doing it.

You'll make your choice, and it will be right for you, and I'll make my choice, and it will be right for me. And it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you. Your choice won't be wrong because it will pass the benchmark/criteria you set.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Well said Paul. As I've posted several times, she has a first class constituency record and her work on a number of Select Committees and on mental health issues is up there with the best.

Maybe she is now at a level beyond her capability but as an MP, not a Front Bencher, I certainly don't question her ability.
		
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This^^. she should stick to her constituency, but represent the UK in Europe and on the world stage. No.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2019)

@Fosh...The reason Johnson refuses to name how many children he has is that he is unsure which ones are new and which ones are retained.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always thought of Johnson as some strange man/child throwback.
Now I think he is more child/man throwback.
Runs away when threatened and then gets his father to fight his case.
This abhoration is actually in charge of our armed forces.

Click to expand...

Once again you show your ignorance about what goes on in the UK

A:  The PM is not and never has been "In charge of our ARMED FORCES"
B:  Mr Johnson senior was an official guest of Ch4

Perhaps your dad should have given you a decent rounding in telling the truth.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

Christmas Tip
Wait till 13th of December before buying presents.
Because if Labour win the election everything is free. ðŸŽ„


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Christmas Tip
Wait till 13th of December before buying presents.
Because if Labour win the election everything is free. ðŸŽ„
		
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You need to get a smiley up there quick


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You need to get a smiley up there quick
		
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Maybe dont bother, the Politburo will be offended what ever you do.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			@Fosh...The reason Johnson refuses to name how many children he has is that he is unsure which ones are new and which ones are retained.
		
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Is that right, you never fail to entertain.
Would you like some sour cream on the mince pie?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nick Ferrari the LBC interviewer. 

Click to expand...

Sorry - don't get the joke.  As it was indeed he.  And Johnson found it very hard going...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't that the problem though, choosing which party to vote for based on personality. *When Corbyn speaks from the heart I like the guy,* but that doesn't mean I like his overall politics. I also think the his lies are worse than the others lies doesn't look at the bigger picture. What is affordable? Which party has the better NHS/Social Care policies?

Equally, there are those on here who deflect back to the Tories - I see both sides on here doing it.

You'll make your choice, and it will be right for you, and I'll make my choice, and it will be right for me. And it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you. Your choice won't be wrong because it will pass the benchmark/criteria you set.
		
Click to expand...

Just on that - when he is on the stump so do I - but when he is interviewed I just don't - then I just don't get a great sense of honesty and authenticity from what he says.  He be cause just too evasive.  Unlike McDonnell who - to me - like him or not - agree with him or not - is usually absolutely clear and certain over what he says and how he says it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - don't get the joke.  As it was indeed he.  And Johnson found it very hard going...

Click to expand...

I read Hobbitâ€™s reply as Ferrari being the EU Company subject to tariffs and not knowing the name of the interviewer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			@Fosh...The reason Johnson refuses to name how many children he has is that he is unsure which ones are new and which ones are retained.
		
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Or like his 40 hospitals - or is it 6 - or is it now 4? - he's not sure how many are actually new and how many he's just buying new clothes for...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I read Hobbitâ€™s reply as Ferrari being the EU Company subject to tariffs and not knowing the name of the interviewer.

Click to expand...

ah - right - doh!


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just on that - when he is on the stump so do I - but when he is interviewed I just don't - then I just don't get a great sense of honesty and authenticity from what he says.  He be cause just too evasive.  Unlike McDonnell who - to me - like him or not - agree with him or not - is usually absolutely clear and certain over what he says and how he says it.
		
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On the stump he tells you what Labour are going to do and how bad the Tories are. When questioned about it in an interview his, and Labour's, credibility is brought into question. And because he fails miserably, he is seen as untrustworthy.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2019)

BJ coming up with a lot of own goals in two days. Finding away to loss the election. Alll four main parties seem to have leaders that nobody particularly have faith in or like and they all seem to have the worst team of advisers known to man kind.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You need to get a smiley up there quick
		
Click to expand...


sorted


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## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			My figures were based on 1 billion = 1000 million. 6 zeroes in a million and 9 zeroes in a billion. And I'm right.

Whoever did the calculation based on 1 billion = 100 million is an incompetent fool. 100 million = 100 million â‰  1 billion. 

Click to expand...

Okay let resurrect this, imagine we have 50 billionaires in this country some say there may be more but letâ€™s use the lowest valuation.
How much would they have to give to make each member of our 67million population a millionaire?
My guess from all of this is tiny .. as I estimate that they could give everyone Â£74million and we would all be the same .. but I might have confused myself with all those bloody zeros!! 
I definitely did confuse myself! They could gift Â£74,600 per person..but we are only assuming  that they are single billionaires.. if they are multiple billionaires then it would get higher.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2019)

A Billion is recognised these days as being one thousand million:
1,000,000,000.
Previously the UK used one million million but this has generally gone out of use.  When politicians are talking about billions they are meaning one thousand million.

So to keep it simple, to give 70 million people  a thousand pounds each would cost : 70,000,000 x 1,000 = 70,000,000,000 or seventy thousand million pounds.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

Unsure of who to vote for in England and Wales ?
Here is your answer

https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/moving-to-scotland/


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## ger147 (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Okay let resurrect this, imagine we have 50 billionaires in this country some say there may be more but letâ€™s use the lowest valuation.
How much would they have to give to make each member of our 67million population a millionaire?
My guess from all of this is tiny .. as I estimate that they could give everyone Â£74million and we would all be the same .. but I might have confused myself with all those bloody zeros!! 
I definitely did confuse myself! They could gift Â£74,600 per person..but we are only assuming  that they are single billionaires.. if they are multiple billionaires then it would get higher.
		
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I have no idea what either of your calculations are supposed to show???

In your first example, 50 people donating Â£74 million each to then be split between 67 million people would mean each person getting about Â£55 each.

In your second example, if you want each billionaire to give 67 million people nearly Â£75k each, that would cost each billionaire nearly Â£5 billion each and each individual would end up with close to Â£4m each.

I would suggest leaving the sums to folks better qualified like Diane Abbot and Nick Gibb...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

The sum that sticks in my head is that according to some 'experts' ATM we pay virtually the same cost per head for a BBC TV licence as to stay in Europe.
That seems like a hell of a bargain to me.
Can we not just scrap the BBC and then gain all of the advantages of being a member of the EU.


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Interesting that we moan about the MPs and their creative and unreal numbers yet when we challenge the spending we use a 60mill population (2019: 68mill). You'd not give kids below 18 the same as a 40 year old etc. etc. In fact there are about 30mill household in 2019. Then of course you can look at how many are working, disabled, OAPs and so on until you're confused and then go on to add costs for means testing so the cost of distribution gives job creation etc etc.

It's a game the press and politicians play.....


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The sum that sticks in my head is that according to some 'experts' ATM we pay virtually the same cost per head for a BBC TV licence as to stay in Europe.
That seems like a hell of a bargain to me.
Can we not just scrap the BBC and then gain all of the advantages of being a member of the EU.

Click to expand...

Or just scrap both and be twice as well off 

But net EU contribution is about 9bill and Licence income is about half that at under 4bill - so I'm not sure the numbers stack up.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 30, 2019)

Apparantly Diane Abbott has told Jeremy Corbyn that she has proof the sale has already started at DFS. Jeremy reminded her it's the NHS ðŸ˜‰


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Apparantly Diane Abbott has told Jerwmy Corbyn that she has proof the sale has already started at DFS. Jeremy reminded her it's the NHS ðŸ˜‰
		
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But the NHS is good with 'flowers' so she might be at home either way


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## MegaSteve (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The sum that sticks in my head is that according to some 'experts' ATM we pay virtually the same cost per head for a BBC TV licence as to stay in Europe.
That seems like a hell of a bargain to me.
Can we not just scrap the BBC and then gain all of the advantages of being a member of the EU.

Click to expand...

It's not the cost that's the issue but the unwelcome interference, in our daily lives, from a disconnected bureaucracy... As someone wanting independence from a similiar bureaucracy thought you'd understand that...

As I've asked several times previously with no serious response from any quarter... How many layers of bureaucracy do we actually need?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			It's not the cost that's the issue but the unwelcome interference, in our daily lives, from a disconnected bureaucracy... As someone wanting independence from a similiar bureaucracy thought you'd understand that...

As I've asked several times previously with no serious response from any quarter... How many layers of bureaucracy do we actually need?
		
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Agree that one less level of unwanted interference from a union would be welcomed in Scotland.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2019)

I've decided to pay my council tax next year using Conservative party maths. 

When they ask me for Â£1000 I'll tell them that I will indeed pay them the full Â£1000 but that will include Â£380 pounds that I have already paid them. If it's good enough for them when it comes to the number of additional nurses they will recruit then it's good enough for me when it comes to paying council tax.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

Out of interest..... what are the views of the Boris Fan Club on here about their heroic leader attempting to dodge the Andrew Neil interviews.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I have no idea what either of your calculations are supposed to show???

In your first example, 50 people donating Â£74 million each to then be split between 67 million people would mean each person getting about Â£55 each.

In your second example, if you want each billionaire to give 67 million people nearly Â£75k each, that would cost each billionaire nearly Â£5 billion each and each individual would end up with close to Â£4m each.

I would suggest leaving the sums to folks better qualified like Diane Abbot and Nick Gibb...
		
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Okay I will explain
There are 50 billionaires, a billion equals 1000 x 100 million 
The population is 67 million
So 50 x 1000x100 is theoretically the total cash if we assume that each billionaire owns only 1 billion.
So that is 5000000million now divide by 67. 
That gives you your 74.6k 

The point is we donâ€™t need that contribution from the population to run this country.
if you cost out what the manifestos are suggesting itâ€™s not this level of contribution they are looking for .. 
Now whatâ€™s your problem?


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest..... what are the views of the Boris Fan Club on here about their heroic leader attempting to dodge the Andrew Neil interviews.
		
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Quite happy!

All I want is that JC does so badly that help from your mob wont put him in to no 10 before the SNP swan off to rejoin  the EU where they will find being subservient to Brussels more acceptable than Westminster


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## Del_Boy (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Okay I will explain
There are 50 billionaires, a billion equals 1000 x 100 million
The population is 67 million
So 50 x 1000x100 is theoretically the total cash if we assume that each billionaire owns only 1 billion.
So that is 5000000million now divide by 67.
That gives you your 74.6k

The point is we donâ€™t need that contribution from the population to run this country.
if you cost out what the manifestos are suggesting itâ€™s not this level of contribution they are looking for ..
Now whatâ€™s your problem?
		
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When it comes to readies a billion is a thousand million not a million million


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite happy!

All I want is that JC does so badly that help from your mob wont put him in to no 10 before the SNP swan off to rejoin  the EU where they will find being subservient to Brussels more acceptable than Westminster
		
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So you are happy to have a gutless leader who is scared to be interviewed by a less than average former Sun journalist.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



*Quite happy!*

All I want is that JC does so badly that help from your mob wont put him in to no 10 before the SNP swan off to rejoin  the EU where they will find being subservient to Brussels more acceptable than Westminster
		
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It's hardly aspiration politics for a bright future, hide your leader away.  I can kind of cope with someone fronting up and putting their point forwards even if it may be something I don't agree with, Farage, Tice, whoever, at least they have the courage of their convictions no mater how much I may disagree with them.  But hiding away from a vaguely tough questioning is just cowardice and I'd really hope for more from the potential leader of our country.  But then again I may have higher hopes for the future of the UK and our political leaders.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Okay I will explain
There are 50 billionaires, a billion equals 1000 x 100 million
The population is 67 million
So 50 x 1000x100 is theoretically the total cash if we assume that each billionaire owns only 1 billion.
So that is 5000000million now divide by 67.
That gives you your 74.6k

The point is we donâ€™t need that contribution from the population to run this country.
if you cost out what the manifestos are suggesting itâ€™s not this level of contribution they are looking for ..
Now whatâ€™s your problem?
		
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Your maths is wrong. 50 billionaires, with a billion pounds each, gives you a total of 50 billion, or 50000000000. You then have to divide that by the population of 67 million, or 67000000. That would give each person Â£746 each not Â£74.6k.


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are happy to have a gutless leader who is scared to be interviewed by a less than average former Sun journalist.

Click to expand...

Absolutely  yes!


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## Imurg (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are happy to have a gutless leader who is scared to be interviewed by a less than average former Sun journalist.

Click to expand...

If the choice is between Boris or Corbyn........er.....yeah


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## ger147 (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Okay I will explain
There are 50 billionaires, a billion equals 1000 x 100 million
The population is 67 million
So 50 x 1000x100 is theoretically the total cash if we assume that each billionaire owns only 1 billion.
So that is 5000000million now divide by 67.
That gives you your 74.6k

The point is we donâ€™t need that contribution from the population to run this country.
if you cost out what the manifestos are suggesting itâ€™s not this level of contribution they are looking for ..
Now whatâ€™s your problem?
		
Click to expand...

1 billion is 1,000 million, your arithmetic is wrong...


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Neal's interview technique is entirely based on entertainment and ego by making himself look good while seeking some obscure item, pseudo anger or repetition designed to make  the interviewee look bad I see no benefit to *anyone* for subjecting themselves to deliberate bear-bating attack - all his interviews with those MPs foolish enough to fall for the lure of the TV camera have been called 'car crash' events. Remember the BBC insist on retaining all editorial non-negotiable rights on what they select to edit/broadcast

I gave up watching AN a while back: IMO its a waste of any thinking persons time. These 'penetrating' style events are far from revealing and provides no real useful information as all the MPs have been on media courses to avoid answering questions so its just an abstract exercise: a game of dancing around topics using tricks to make someone stumble off guard.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest..... what are the views of the Boris Fan Club on here about their heroic leader attempting to dodge the Andrew Neil interviews.
		
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It's up to him but he couldn't  look as stupid and embarrassed as Jimmy did


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Neal's interview technique is entirely based on entertainment and ego by making himself look good while seeking some obscure item, pseudo anger or repetition designed to make  the interviewee look bad I see no benefit to *anyone* for subjecting themselves to deliberate bear-bating attack - all his interviews with those MPs foolish enough to fall for the lure of the TV camera have been called 'car crash' events. Remember the BBC insist on retaining all editorial non-negotiable rights on what they select to edit/broadcast

I gave up watching AN a while back: IMO its a waste of any thinking persons time. These 'penetrating' style events are far from revealing and provides no real useful information as all the MPs have been on media courses to avoid answering questions so its just an abstract exercise: a game of dancing around topics using tricks to make someone stumble off guard.
		
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with any of that but the BBC sold it as the 5 UK leaders taking part.
Poor show if Johnson is now too afraid to participate.
I can fully understand why his party wish to keep him and Rees Mogg as far away from an interview as possible. It seem that the more the public see of them the less they are inclined to vote for them.


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## Del_Boy (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with any of that but the BBC sold it as the 5 UK leaders taking part.
Poor show if Johnson is now too afraid to participate.
I can fully understand why his party wish to keep him and Rees Mogg as far away from an interview as possible. It seem that the more the public see of them the less they are inclined to vote for them.
		
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BBC should have made sure they had all the leaders signed up before flogging it as a all leaders grilling


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with any of that but the BBC sold it as the 5 UK leaders taking part.
Poor show if Johnson is now too afraid to participate.
I can fully understand why his party wish to keep him and Rees Mogg as far away from an interview as possible. It seem that the more the public see of them the less they are inclined to vote for them.
		
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Good to see that he's bright enough not to look a total plank like Krankie and the Corbynated Chicken both managed ðŸ˜‹


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with any of that but the BBC sold it as the 5 UK leaders taking part.
Poor show if Johnson is now too afraid to participate.
I can fully understand why his party wish to keep him and Rees Mogg as far away from an interview as possible. It seem that the more the public see of them the less they are inclined to vote for them.
		
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I agree with you (it must be coming up for the 'Season of goodwill') but I'd add that the constant belittling of our MPs by media ridicule has accelerated the low standing with which they're held by the public who feed off this garbage !

IMO Neal's own arrogance gets in the way of sensible debate - his personal opinions are somewhat questionable as for example, he denies the scientific climate evidence; which I think for a so-called intelligent rational person is strange.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			1 billion is 1,000 million, your arithmetic is wrong...
		
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Yup I made a mistake .


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## MegaSteve (Nov 30, 2019)

N



chrisd said:



			Good to see that he's bright enough not to look a total plank like Krankie and the Corbynated Chicken both managed ðŸ˜‹
		
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His constituents will advise he has history for going AWOL when the going gets tough... Nothing to do with being bright just lacking in courage to back his word with action...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Neal's interview technique is entirely based on entertainment and ego by making himself look good while seeking some obscure item, pseudo anger or repetition designed to make  the interviewee look bad I see no benefit to anyone for subjecting themselves to deliberate bear-bating attack - all his interviews with those MPs foolish enough to fall for the lure of the TV camera have been called 'car crash' events. Remember the BBC insist on retaining all editorial non-negotiable rights on what they select to edit/broadcast

I gave up watching AN a while back: IMO its a waste of any thinking persons time. These 'penetrating' style events are far from revealing and provides no real useful information as all the MPs have been on media courses to avoid answering questions so its just an abstract exercise: *a game of dancing around topics using tricks to make someone stumble off guard*.
		
Click to expand...

Or alternatively it is a very rare opportunity for the public to see a potential leader have to answer probing questions 1 on 1 for any sustained period of time.  A chance to see if any of them can cope with more than regurgitating pre-defined soundbites written by party HQ that supposedly play well on social media. 

Says a lot to me who is willing to do that and who is not.  Who is more concerned about their image than who is willing to argue their point and put forward their policies under pressure.  Seems we'll just have to hope then the EU roll over in trade negotiations and it does not get too difficult for him......


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			N

His constituents will advise he has history for going AWOL when the going gets tough... Nothing to do with being bright just lacking in courage to back his word with action...
		
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But brighter than Corbyn, Krankie and Swinson  ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰


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## MegaSteve (Nov 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But brighter than Corbyn, Krankie and Swinson  ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
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Being brighter than those is not what matters... He needs to be brighter than the 'Boys in Brussels'...

And, thus far, I've not seen any indication of that...


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## Old Skier (Nov 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			N

His constituents will advise he has history for going AWOL when the going gets tough... Nothing to do with being bright just lacking in courage to back his word with action...
		
Click to expand...

The whole thing has been a farce so far but if he had no intention of taking part he should have made it clear right from the start. Failing to take part now does make him seem to be afraid. I do think though, apart from the media stirring it up 90% of the electorate dont bother to watch.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Good to see that he's bright enough not to look a total plank like Krankie and the Corbynated Chicken both managed ðŸ˜‹
		
Click to expand...

Corbynated chicken ðŸ˜€


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Being brighter than those is not what matters... He needs to be brighter than the 'Boys in Brussels'...

And, thus far, I've not seen any indication of that...
		
Click to expand...

No problem ðŸ˜‹


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## Mudball (Nov 30, 2019)

As unfortunate the London Bridge incident is... it is only going to get more people choose BoJo over Corbyn.   The amount of noise i see on social platforms on Corbyn & national security...  This could have been a labour election.. but looks like Tories will walk it (despite Brexshit nonsense)


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## Old Skier (Nov 30, 2019)

Mudball said:



			As unfortunate the London Bridge incident is... it is only going to get more people choose BoJo over Corbyn.   The amount of noise i see on social platforms on Corbyn & national security...  This could have been a labour election.. but looks like Tories will walk it (despite Brexshit nonsense)
		
Click to expand...

Not sure why. Both parties have had opportunities to sort our dozy sentencing and release procedures out but both have failed the public.


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or alternatively it is a very rare opportunity for *the public* to see a potential leader have to answer probing questions 1 on 1 for any sustained period of time.  A chance to see if any of them can cope with more than regurgitating pre-defined soundbites written by party HQ that supposedly play well on social media.

Says a lot to me who is willing to do that and who is not.  Who is more concerned about their image than who is willing to argue their point and put forward their policies under pressure.  Seems we'll just have to hope then the EU roll over in trade negotiations and it does not get too difficult for him......
		
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Sorry but its the Andrew Neal Show designed by him solely to make himself look good at the expense at whoever is foolish enough to sit opposite and enable him to maintain/enhance his reputation for being a _ruthless_ interviewer (IMO accurately characterised as rude and arrogant) !!

By the way the 'public' rarely watch these programmes: viewers are usual a politically aware BBC minority (see the viewing stats) so it largely preaching to the entrenched.

There are suggestions the PM will be on the Marr show...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2019)

Johnson not willing to be interviewed by AN? Make up any old excuse you want, but the bottom line is that he and his entourage just know that AN would expose him as the blustering, often clueless, charlatan that he is.  Itâ€™s the truth I would contend that every single person on this forum knows in their heart of hearts, but that not all are willing to admit.  Which is a pity.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry but its the Andrew Neal Show designed by him solely to make himself look good at the expense at whoever is foolish enough to sit opposite and enable him to maintain/enhance his reputation for being a _ruthless_ interviewer (IMO accurately characterised as rude and arrogant) !!

By the way the 'public' rarely watch these programmes: viewers are usual a politically aware BBC minority (see the viewing stats) so it largely preaching to the entrenched.

*There are suggestions the PM will be on the Marr show.*..
		
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There were stories earlier today that the BBC weren't going to have him on the Marr show until he'd agreed to do the AN interview. Don't know if it's true but lots of papers reporting it.......

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...s-to-interview-with-andrew-neil-a4300991.html

EDIT - now looks like they are going to let him after all.....

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/30/bbc-...s-johnson-row-andrew-neil-interview-11246272/


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson not willing to be interviewed by AN? Make up any old excuse you want, but the bottom line is that he and his entourage just know that AN would expose him as the blustering, often clueless, charlatan that he is.  Itâ€™s the truth I would contend that every single person on this forum knows in their heart of hearts, but that not all are willing to admit.  Which is a pity.
		
Click to expand...

I think AN does it to every politician. Lets face it, every party has thrown some wild promises into the mix that just ask to be shot down, and AN is a master at it. Apart from the odd(apt?) forumite that thinks gold nuggets fall out of their favourite leader's rear, I don't think there's anything close to a good leader in any party.


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## ger147 (Nov 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think AN does it to every politician. Lets face it, every party has thrown some wild promises into the mix that just ask to be shot down, and AN is a master at it. Apart from the odd(apt?) forumite that thinks gold nuggets fall out of their favourite leader's rear, I don't think there's anything close to a good leader in any party.
		
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As the great Sir Billy Connolly once said about politicians, we are led by the least among us...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry but its the Andrew Neal Show designed by him solely to make himself look good at the expense at whoever is foolish enough to sit opposite and enable him to maintain/enhance his reputation for being a _ruthless_ interviewer (IMO accurately characterised as rude and arrogant) !!

B*y the way the 'public' rarely watch these programmes: viewers are usual a politically aware BBC minority* *(see the viewing stats)* so it largely preaching to the entrenched.

There are suggestions the PM will be on the Marr show...
		
Click to expand...

It is not 1975 anymore, people consume what happens on these type of programs through the media, traditional and increasingly social, afterwards. The aftermath of the Neil/ Corbyn interview led the headlines for a couple of days afterwards and no doubt was the subject of many 1000s of social media interactions. Just thinking that the only people who are influenced are the people actually watching it as it goes out is rather outdated.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Apart from the odd(apt?) forumite that thinks *gold nuggets fall out of their favourite leader's rear*

Click to expand...

Isn't that the Golden Egg that planted two billion trees , bit painful mind, well unless its more bantam than duck.

I'll get me coat.


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It is not 1975 anymore, people consume what happens on these type of programs through the media, traditional and increasingly social, afterwards. The aftermath of the Neil/ Corbyn interview led the headlines for a couple of days afterwards and no doubt was the subject of many 1000s of social media interactions. Just thinking that the only people who are influenced are the people actually watching it as it goes out is rather outdated.
		
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You can believe the soundbite twisted FB,  Twitter guff and other out of context material rumour if you wish I prefer to research for the facts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Good to see that he's bright enough not to look a total plank like Krankie and the Corbynated Chicken both managed ðŸ˜‹
		
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I don't imagine his constituents will see it like 'he was bright enough' when they vote on 12th Dec.
More like a man/child who lacks any moral courage and runs away from Neil's interview.
If he cannot stand up to Neil how the hell is he going to manage Putin and Trump.

I imagine that the guy dressed up like a chicken will be following Johnson for the rest of the election.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 30, 2019)

Looking more and more likely that the Torries and Labour will be smashed up here.

Independence will come, maybe not in my lifetime (although I really hope it does) but it is coming.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2019)

The tide seems to be turning.
Mind you I did think that Tory lead was a bit weird.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ity-slashed-80-12-week/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson not willing to be interviewed by AN? Make up any old excuse you want, but the bottom line is that he and his entourage just know that AN would expose him as the blustering, often clueless, charlatan that he is.  Itâ€™s the truth I would contend that every single person on this forum knows in their heart of hearts, but that not all are willing to admit.  Which is a pity.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldnâ€™t be bothered if he hit a small child while riding his bike, didnâ€™t apologise, sold the NHS under the poor kids feet and the parents couldnâ€™t afford healthcare, aslong as he gets brexit done. 
Manifestos, QT, Andrew Neil, previous actions. All irrelevant as itâ€™s all about brexit.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The tide seems to be turning.
Mind you I did think that Tory lead was a bit weird.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ity-slashed-80-12-week/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Click to expand...

He only needs to hold what he has and add 6 seats though ?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2019)

Remember he should have a government void of the remainers in the party. Any overall majority will be enough to get the job done.


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## User62651 (Dec 1, 2019)

Outside of the 24 hour news channels and papers is there any sense of excitement or intrigue from the public about this upcoming election? Seems apathy and disinterest may prevail imho. December may have something to do with it but I think people have had enough, 3rd GE in 4.5 years. I just cant see or feel any sense of expectancy or passion about this election when out and about or chatting to people, almost like you wouldn't know it's happening.

I just don't think it's going to make any difference. We have a bad PM and Govt and we have a bad opposition. Swinson is unconvincing for me and for us way up north Sturgeon's becoming tired sounding, seems to have lost a bit of energy and focus.

After 9 years of Tory Govt we need a change but the prospect of change is unappealing given Corbyn and co so we will reluctantly still be better under this bad Government come Dec 13.
The parading of a smug Johnson just before Christmas is a prospect I abhor so I hope we end up just where we are now in parliament with a minority govt so he is made to look as average as he really is.

Abstaining is a very real choice at present.

Appreciate a lot of people have died for our freedoms but on this occasion not voting seems the best way to show how uninspired with leadership in politics we are.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Outside of the 24 hour news channels and papers is there any sense of excitement or intrigue from the public about this upcoming election? Seems apathy and disinterest may prevail imho. December may have something to do with it but I think people have had enough, 3rd GE in 4.5 years. I just cant see or feel any sense of expectancy or passion about this election when out and about or chatting to people, almost like you wouldn't know it's happening.

I just don't think it's going to make any difference. We have a bad PM and Govt and we have a bad opposition. Swinson is unconvincing for me and for us way up north Sturgeon's becoming tired sounding, seems to have lost a bit of energy and focus.

After 9 years of Tory Govt we need a change but the prospect of change is unappealing given Corbyn and co so we will reluctantly still be better under this bad Government come Dec 13.
The parading of a smug Johnson just before Christmas is a prospect I abhor so I hope we end up just where we are now in parliament with a minority govt so he is made to look as average as he really is.

Abstaining is a very real choice at present.

Appreciate a lot of people have died for our freedoms but on this occasion not voting seems the best way to shown how uninspired with leadership in politics we are.
		
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is the malaise we have been experiencing something people would want to continue.  I just dont think it is.


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## User62651 (Dec 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			is the malaise we have been experiencing something people would want to continue.  I just dont think it is.
		
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I dont know, just seemed in 2015 and then again in 2017 there was excitement and enthusiasm in politics leading up to them, the Brexit saga has been quite good viewing and dramatic but this GE is dull and I dont think is needed or is the answer as chances are we'll not see much difference in commons numbers come 13th. I just dont think Boris is going to get the numbers he wants. Traditional Tory strongholds seem to be very split over him as leader as he's turned their once broad party into UKIP. Turnout is going to be below the norm I think.

There is no positive message that the electorate can grab onto, only negatives from the leading parties, just empty soundbites everyone is sick of  - of those negatives I do think Labour's expose (alleged) of Tory policy over any NHS sell off for a US trade deal is going to stick and work for them. Everyone can relate to that. Conversely the neutral Corbyn stance on Brexit which Boris repeatedly targets Labour with only seems to upset hard leavers and does not bother most people, doesn't carry much clout for me. The anti Semitism thing which is the other negative that Boris targets Corbyn with - I cant gauge how big an issue it is for joe public, it's not really a tangible thing that the general electorate (aside from the Jewish community) relate to or are affected by, so will that influence voting significantly?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I dont know, just seemed in 2015 and then again in 2017 there was excitement and enthusiasm in politics leading up to them, the Brexit saga has been quite good viewing and dramatic but this GE is dull and I dont think is needed or is the answer as chances are we'll not see much difference in commons numbers come 13th. I just dont think Boris is going to get the numbers he wants. Traditional Tory strongholds seem to be very split over him as leader as he's turned their once broad party into UKIP. Turnout is going to be below the norm I think.

There is no positive message that the electorate can grab onto, only negatives from the leading parties, just empty soundbites everyone is sick of  - of those negatives I do think Labour's expose (alleged) of Tory policy over any NHS sell off for a US trade deal is going to stick and work for them. Everyone can relate to that. Conversely the neutral Corbyn stance on Brexit which Boris repeatedly targets Labour with only seems to upset hard leavers and does not bother most people, doesn't carry much clout for me. The anti Semitism thing which is the other negative that Boris targets Corbyn with - I cant gauge how big an issue it is for joe public, it's not really a tangible thing that the general electorate (aside from the Jewish community) relate to or are affected by, so will that influence voting significantly?
		
Click to expand...

I think the lack of confidence in Corbyn with traditional Labour supporters is very big and will hurt them.  Just imagine another 5 years of minority government with the current parliament act.  People will certainly be brassed off with that.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Outside of the 24 hour news channels and papers is there any sense of excitement or intrigue from the public about this upcoming election? Seems apathy and disinterest may prevail imho. December may have something to do with it but I think people have had enough, 3rd GE in 4.5 years. I just cant see or feel any sense of expectancy or passion about this election when out and about or chatting to people, almost like you wouldn't know it's happening.

I just don't think it's going to make any difference. We have a bad PM and Govt and we have a bad opposition. Swinson is unconvincing for me and for us way up north Sturgeon's becoming tired sounding, seems to have lost a bit of energy and focus.

After 9 years of Tory Govt we need a change but the prospect of change is unappealing given Corbyn and co so we will reluctantly still be better under this bad Government come Dec 13.
The parading of a smug Johnson just before Christmas is a prospect I abhor so I hope we end up just where we are now in parliament with a minority govt so he is made to look as average as he really is.

Abstaining is a very real choice at present.

Appreciate a lot of people have died for our freedoms but on this occasion not voting seems the best way to shown how uninspired with leadership in politics we are.
		
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My choice is a simple one. Anyone bar Corbyn.


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't imagine his constituents will see it like 'he was bright enough' when they vote on 12th Dec.
More like a man/child who lacks any moral courage and runs away from Neil's interview.
If he cannot stand up to Neil how the hell is he going to manage Putin and Trump.

I imagine that the guy dressed up like a chicken will be following Johnson for the rest of the election.
		
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So, do Wee Krankies constituents see her as a hero for going on an interview and excuse her coming out of it as a completely inept muppet, who's only reason to be a politician is to take her country out of the clutches of Westminster and then to hand control to the, even more dictatorial, EU ?

I think BJ's constituents will be pleased to have the PM as their MP ðŸ˜‹


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, do Wee Krankies constituents see her as a hero for going on an interview and excuse her coming out of it as a completely inept muppet, who's only reason to be a politician is to take her country out of the clutches of Westminster and then to hand control to the, even more dictatorial, EU ?

I think BJ's constituents will be pleased to have the PM as their MP ðŸ˜‹
		
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Surely the answer to your question is it should be up to someone from Scotland to decide their future.

As for your second point, I hope you don't get egg on your face if Johnson isn't re-elected.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, do Wee Krankies constituents see her as a hero for going on an interview and excuse her coming out of it as a completely inept muppet, who's only reason to be a politician is to take her country out of the clutches of Westminster and then to hand control to the, even more dictatorial, EU ?

I think BJ's constituents will be pleased to have the PM as their MP ðŸ˜‹
		
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Hero. Celebrated with black pudding, haggis and slice in a McGhee's crispy roll washed down with bru.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Y*ou can believe the soundbite twisted FB,  Twitter guff and other out of context material rumour if you wish *I prefer to research for the facts.
		
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As long as those facts are not from a 30 minute one on one interview with Andrew Neil asking hard questions?  So you want to see the real facts and not rely on social media, but then it's Ok for someone to refuse to do such an interview that gives the public the chance to elaborate on their facts and beliefs?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200830820958851073
Goodness me, even Hartley-Brewer thinks he is a coward.


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2019)

If Johnson is going to skip Neil and try for a puff piece with Marr instead, then the Marr interview should be about the London Bridge incident and nothing more, no election content.


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## patricks148 (Dec 1, 2019)

i wonder Laura Kuenssberg has offered to interview Boris instead of AN if he would except


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## Tashyboy (Dec 1, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Hero. Celebrated with black pudding, haggis and slice in a McGhee's crispy roll washed down with bru.
		
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And that meal washed down with a cuppa tea is the post of the day.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200830820958851073
Goodness me, even Hartley-Brewer thinks he is a coward.
		
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Jesus wept, I'm now agreeing with Julia Hartley Brewer.  Look what this whole debacle has reduced us too, first I agree with Farage over reform of the voting system and now this. If Katie Hopkins posts much the same and I have to agree with her then that's it, the shark has well and truly been jumped and I'm out of here .......


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry but its the Andrew Neal Show designed by him solely to make himself look good at the expense at whoever is foolish enough to sit opposite and enable him to maintain/enhance his reputation for being a _ruthless_ interviewer (IMO accurately characterised as rude and arrogant) !!

*By the way the 'public' rarely watch these programmes: viewers are usual a politically aware BBC minority (see the viewing stats)* so it largely preaching to the entrenched.

There are suggestions the PM will be on the Marr show...
		
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Really?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201069807254282240


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

After that Marr interview you can clearly see why Johnston's puppet masters are desperate to keep him as far away from Neil as possible.

Quite hilarious Marr adopting Johnson's tactics of talking all over him and coming out a clear winner.

Marr-Tory government have been in control for 10 years 
Johnson- waffle waffle Labour
Marr 10 years, Johnson- splutter splutter Corbyn
Marr 10 years-Johnson but but Miliband
Marr 10 years- Johnson wha wha. Kinnock..

[Those last two comments may be a lie but I will allow them for political debate.]


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## drdel (Dec 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201069807254282240

Click to expand...

Let us not get carried away thinking the UK 'public' is hugely concerned with political TV programmes. AN's usual number of viewers float around 3.5mill. - about 15% of total.

Average ITV audience is 12.5mill and BBC 11.3mill
*World Cup 20+ mill*
Coronation St 7m
Emmerdale 6.5mill
BBC News 5mill
Question Time Special 4.2 mill viewers


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

The second comment was pure gold.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201084523745882117


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## Beezerk (Dec 1, 2019)

Quite sad really, an mp getting slagged from all corners for not taking part in the media circus, it's getting to the same levels as the last US election, hatred from one side.
I'm not really fussed whether he does an interview or not, but again it smacks of desperation and nastiness from the left.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

Meanwhile in Scotland
Tory candidates try to impersonate Labour candidates to gain votes.
Just how desperate is that.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200791728338427905


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## JamesR (Dec 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Quite sad really, an mp getting slagged from all corners for not taking part in the media circus, it's getting to the same levels as the last US election, hatred from one side.
I'm not really fussed whether he does an interview or not, but again it smacks of desperation and nastiness from the left.
		
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Not just â€œan mpâ€ but the PM. 
If he canâ€™t face a few tough questions from Neil how can he cope against ruthless, equally well educated, better prepared and more knowledgeable world leaders.
Can he be trusted in times of brinksmanship or national and international emergency?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 1, 2019)

Interesting snippet, if true explains the absence of a few Labour big hitters from TV


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201107455423459328


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Quite sad really, an mp getting slagged from all corners for not taking part in the media circus, it's getting to the same levels as the last US election, hatred from one side.
I'm not really fussed whether he does an interview or not, but again it smacks of desperation and nastiness from the left.
		
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Not really sad, he should just do it and stop making it a bigger thing than it is. 
His followers wonâ€™t care they have made up their minds .. your just worried about the floaters, but they will make up their minds in the last few days .. so getting it done now would be wise.


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## Imurg (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Meanwhile in Scotland
Tory candidates try to impersonate Labour candidates to gain votes.
Just how desperate is that.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200791728338427905

Click to expand...

Are you implying that colours are copyrighted during an election or that the people of Scotland are unable to read....


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## Beezerk (Dec 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not just â€œan mpâ€ but the PM.
If he canâ€™t face a few tough questions from Neil how can he cope against ruthless, equally well educated, better prepared and more knowledgeable world leaders.
Can he be trusted in times of brinksmanship or national and international emergency?
		
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MP, PM I couldn't care less. It's all just about BJ haters wanting him to embarrass himself on live tv, just like the other leaders were foolish enough to do so.
If he went on and smashed it the haters would still find a way to spin it into something negative.


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## Beezerk (Dec 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really sad, he should just do it and stop making it a bigger thing than it is.
		
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But why should he have to? Because a section of the public want him to? That's not reason enough IMO and I'm sort of glad in a way he isn't falling for this circus bull.
Btw I don't like BJ one bit however I dislike Corbyn and how the Labour party is currently being run even more.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

Super trooper yoon calls for a 2/3rds majority in any future Scottish Independence referendum.
Fine by us say Independence supporters but a 2/3rds majority to stay in the Union might go against you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Are you implying that colours are copyrighted during an election or that the people of Scotland are unable to read....

Click to expand...

No.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But why should he have to? Because a section of the public want him to? That's not reason enough IMO and I'm sort of glad in a way he isn't falling for this circus bull.
Btw I don't like BJ one bit however I dislike Corbyn and how the Labour party is currently being run even more.
		
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None of them can have it both ways, they all want our vote and they should be accountable, either do interviews or donâ€™t.
Do I care if he does the AN show, no, absolutely not, because I agree with you it will make no difference to those who have made their mind up.
Therefore, my issue is with the BBC, they should come out and explain if they have lied to the other leaders and if they didnâ€™t lie, why has boris or his reps changed their mind.
Someone needs to step up and tell the truth, thatâ€™s the only way to stop the circus bull, as you describe it.


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## Imurg (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No.

Click to expand...

Well, you seem to be getting a little upset because the Tories used red paper on an election leaflet. Is that how it works.?
I've got 6 red leaflets but only 3 blue ones and no yellow ones so I'm voting Labour..
Just askin'...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			MP, PM I couldn't care less. It's all just about BJ haters wanting him to embarrass himself on live tv, just like the other leaders were foolish enough to do so.
If he went on and smashed it the haters would still find a way to spin it into something negative.
		
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His constituents probably won't need reminding of what a liar Boris is from watching him on the box... Just in case they needed reminding though... There have been full page ads in the local paper... And, I wouldn't be at all surprised same or similar are published in election week... 

If you are foolish enough to lie to the electorate it shouldn't be surprised if it results in being ignored come the next election...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But why should he have to? Because a section of the public want him to? That's not reason enough IMO and I'm sort of glad in a way he isn't falling for this circus bull.
Btw I don't like BJ one bit however I dislike Corbyn and how the Labour party is currently being run even more.
		
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Despite all of the things posted, about the TV. It is potentially the only media to be unbiased.
Hence if itâ€™s done properly it is required and not for those who have made up their minds but for the floaters. 
As an electorate we know that social media and newspapers allow them to prepare their message and seed their versions of the truth. The TV can spin that on the head ..


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## User62651 (Dec 1, 2019)

if Johnson doesn't want to do an interview with Andrew Neill that's alright, his choice, but for heavens sake just answer the question _"Will you do an interview with Neill?"_ with a firm and simple NO. Would get more respect if he just did that instead of endless waffle.

If the following question is _"Why not?" _just say honestly _"Because it'll probably make me look bad".  _I would respect him for that honesty and for the waffle time avoided.

The question dodging is what winds everyone up with politicians and Prime Ministers are the worst for doing it. Utter tedium.


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely the answer to your question is it should be up to someone from Scotland to decide their future.

As for your second point, I hope you don't get egg on your face if Johnson isn't re-elected.
		
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To be fair Brian  this is a golf forum and a bit like a chat in the clubhouse, no ones views, mine especially, count for anything. Some on here think theirs do ðŸ¤”


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Brian  this is a golf forum and a bit like a chat in the clubhouse, no ones views, mine especially, count for anything. Some on here think theirs do ðŸ¤”
		
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And that was the spirit in which I responded.


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## Mudball (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			To be fair Brian  this is a golf forum and a bit like a chat in the clubhouse, no ones views, mine especially, count for anything. Some on here think theirs do ðŸ¤”
		
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Most people vote to change the club house menu does not work either, yet we think we can influence national debate...


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And that was the spirit in which I responded.
		
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Indeed you did.

I'd add too. Almost everyone posting regularly on the political threads are never going to change their mind on who they vote for, or supporting in the Brexit thread because of anything said here. So it is just point scoring and let's be honest it is fun!


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Indeed you did.

I'd add too. Almost everyone posting regularly on the political threads are never going to change their mind on who they vote for, or supporting in the Brexit thread because of anything said here. So it is just point scoring and let's be honest it is fun!
		
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I've learned more about politics, and how the country is run, in the last 3.5 years than I did in the previous 40+ years of interest, courtesy of the thought provoking debates in here. That and retirement giving me time to read all the info out there has been very enlightening. 

There are intelligent people on all sides of the debates. I like HK's posts when he really gets stuck in. His strong sense of Liberalism is very thought provoking, and there's a code behind them that we could all learn from. I agree with a lot of Hogie's points but, at times, despair at his delivery - Remainers'R'us. LP nailed me on a fundamental belief a few months back, getting me to seriously question it. He was right, and did me a huge favour.

Apart from a few idiots, I'd happily play golf with everyone, and even buy them a beer... apart from Hogie, who I found out at Aldershot, is tea total - great conversationalist though..


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I've learned more about politics, and how the country is run, in the last 3.5 years than I did in the previous 40+ years of interest, courtesy of the thought provoking debates in here. That and retirement giving me time to read all the info out there has been very enlightening.

There are intelligent people on all sides of the debates. I like HK's posts when he really gets stuck in. His strong sense of Liberalism is very thought provoking, and there's a code behind them that we could all learn from. I agree with a lot of Hogie's points but, at times, despair at his delivery - Remainers'R'us. LP nailed me on a fundamental belief a few months back, getting me to seriously question it. He was right, and did me a huge favour.

Apart from a few idiots, I'd happily play golf with everyone, and even buy them a beer... apart from Hogie, who I found out at Aldershot, is tea total - great conversationalist though..
		
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I agree wholeheartedly Brian, if it wasnt as you say, I'd have been out of here ages ago. I do have to say though that whilst sometimes I nod and agree with some posts I'd have disagreed with in the past I have not thought that any persons contrary opinion to mine has come close to changing my voting intentions and has probably hardened my view on Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2019)

drdel said:



*Let us not get carried away thinking the UK 'public' is hugely concerned with political TV programmes*. AN's usual number of viewers float around 3.5mill. - about 15% of total.

Average ITV audience is 12.5mill and BBC 11.3mill
*World Cup 20+ mill*
Coronation St 7m
Emmerdale 6.5mill
BBC News 5mill
Question Time Special 4.2 mill viewers
		
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We have one of the most important general elections in modern history in 2 weeks time that will shape our country for years to come so I imagine there will be some interest in, who is likely to be our next PM, fronting up.

Not saying the viewing figures will beat the World Cup but then again if we are using that as the yardstick then the Tory party got considerably less votes at the last election than the world cup viewing figures, Labour's vote would struggle to beat Strictly and the SNP would lose out to a BBC 4 documentary on Volcanoes in Iceland.  So may be we should make Southgate or Craig Revel Horwood the PM (actually I genuinely would not be opposed to that at this stage).

To me the hiding away and attempted justification of that by his supporters speaks volumes.  But I've said my point (many times) so won't comment any further on this matter.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200927491134820353


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

Johnson told Marr four blatant lies.
Does he really think that the British public are that stupid.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson told Marr four blatant lies.
Does he really think that the British public are that stupid.
		
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Only 4? Was it a short interview?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Only 4? Was it a short interview?
		
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Well four so far, others still being checked.
BTW...can you spell Pinocchio, not allowed to comment on things Boris if you cannot.


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson told Marr four blatant lies.
Does he really think that the British public are that stupid.
		
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And they were?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree wholeheartedly Brian, if it wasnt as you say, I'd have been out of here ages ago. I do have to say though that whilst sometimes I nod and agree with some posts I'd have disagreed with in the past I have not thought that any persons contrary opinion to mine has come close to changing my voting intentions and has probably hardened my view on Brexit.
		
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What would be the point of us agreeing with them anyway.  We would all be wrong then ðŸ˜‚


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## spongebob59 (Dec 1, 2019)

Had a little giggle.watching Peston on news at 10 tonight, looked totally piss ed off with it all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2019)

Hancock not going down too well with his constituency voters.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...s-laugh-at-him-in-disbelief-goes-viral/30/11/


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

More freebies


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201381654180352000


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			And they were?
		
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BBC fact checked his comments. Basically he was talking crap. What he said and what is fact don't go hand in hand.
That said I watched the interview and Andrew Marr did nothing but interrupt. Missed opportunity me finks.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			More freebies


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201381654180352000

Click to expand...

you missed these just below this story
https://twitter.com/butwhatifitsall 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201286283605291013https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...son/news/108296/boris-johnson-claims-he-leads


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi, I'm really fed up with it all, but you lot seem fairly interested in it all. I've got a question. It was mentioned in the ITV debate that the "no deal" thing could still be on? Is this still possible?


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 2, 2019)

Oh and why have the libs got a right whiner as a leader at the time when the country hates both the main party leaders. Mistake......BIG MISTAKE !!! HUGE !!!!


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

We had a leaflet from the Conservative and unionist party though the door today, not a single policy, all it is is slagging off the SNP, Labour and the Libs...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 2, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Hi, I'm really fed up with it all, but you lot seem fairly interested in it all. I've got a question. It was mentioned in the ITV debate that the "no deal" thing could still be on? Is this still possible?
		
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Yes. Not at the next stage, if the Conservatives win and he passes his deal then we go into a transition period where everything remains the same. If at the end of the transition period there is no trade deal agreed then we are back to no deal again. It is unlikely but possible. (I may be out slightly on this but it is along those lines)


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## chrisd (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			BBC fact checked his comments. Basically he was talking crap. What he said and what is fact don't go hand in hand.
That said I watched the interview and Andrew Marr did nothing but interrupt. Missed opportunity me finks.
		
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I didn't see the interview and so I asked Doon what the 4 blatant lies were


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## Wolf (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			We had a leaflet from the Conservative and unionist party though the door today, not a single policy, all it is is slagging off the SNP, Labour and the Libs...
		
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We  had 2  similar through our door Saturday one was from Labour and the other from Brexit Party. Im of the opinion this is the most childish fought GE ever known and every party is doing the same instead of focusing on their policies and what they're going to do, they're in fact just mud slinging at each other like kids in a playground. It's not politics but merely who can belittle each other the most and I'm not biased in that as I think each party is a bad as each other this time round. They all need better leaderships.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			We  had 2  similar through our door Saturday one was from Labour and the other from Brexit Party. Im of the opinion this is the most childish fought GE ever known and every party is doing the same instead of focusing on their policies and what they're going to do, they're in fact just mud slinging at each other like kids in a playground. It's not politics but merely who can belittle each other the most and I'm not biased in that as I think each party is a bad as each other this time round.* They all need better leaderships.*

Click to expand...

I also think we are all also partly culpable as we accept what is said by many biased sources or refer back to what happened years, or in some cases decades ago, when deciding who deserves our vote. The parties have changed a lot in recent years, arguably more in the last 5 years then in decades before. This has mostly involved swings to the extremes so the parties who many of us would have voted for happily are no longer the same parties. 

You could argue actually the main parties do actually have good leaders based on what those parties currently stand for, I suppose the question is how much of that could or should we buy into.  And I suppose what is the alternative. I've said it for a long time but tell me what you want to do and what your vision is and I'll listen, start slagging off the other parties and I just switch off as to me it just exposes the paucity of your own ideas. Vote for us as the other party is allegedly crap is just negative reactionary politics and takes us no where IMHO.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Oh and why have the libs got a right whiner as a leader at the time when the country hates both the main party leaders. Mistake......BIG MISTAKE !!! HUGE !!!!
		
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This country loves a bit of wine ... I had 2 glasses last night, myself.
But in all seriousness if the whining is about things of relevance and they say they have a solution that is not pie in the sky, then it's well worth a review.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well four so far, others still being checked.
BTW...can you spell Pinocchio, not allowed to comment on things Boris if you cannot.

Click to expand...

I hope he identified himself correctly ... if he starts to lie about that then we really are in trouble. 
But you know the Chinese proverb, A man who lies all the time is the same as a man who tells the truth all of the time, but a man who tells lies some of the time and the truth another part of the time cannot be trusted.


----------



## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			More freebies


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201381654180352000

Click to expand...

Who cares about the cost .. let's get the votes!!!!!!!!!
Slightly different strategy to the Tories, but a strategy all the same.


----------



## Piece (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			We had a leaflet from the Conservative and unionist party though the door today, not a single policy, all it is is slagging off the SNP, Labour and the Libs...
		
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We have had daily leaflets from the Lib Dem party through the door. All slagging off Tory and Brexit parties...

They are all at it. Constant leaflet dropping from the LDs. I hope all this marketing is netted off environmentally.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I also think we are all also partly culpable as we accept what is said by many biased sources or refer back to what happened years, or in some cases decades ago, when deciding who deserves our vote. The parties have changed a lot in recent years, arguably more in the last 5 years then in decades before. This has mostly involved swings to the extremes so the parties who many of us would have voted for happily are no longer the same parties.

You could argue actually the main parties do actually have good leaders based on what those parties currently stand for, I suppose the question is how much of that could or should we buy into.  And I suppose what is the alternative. I've said it for a long time but tell me what you want to do and what your vision is and I'll listen, start slagging off the other parties and I just switch off as to me it just exposes the paucity of your own ideas. Vote for us as the other party is allegedly crap is just negative reactionary politics and takes us no where IMHO.
		
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Exactly this ..
I saw a farce book request for the lib dems to stand down in BJ's constituency so that the opposition could have a clear run at him. The point though was lost, if BJ goes, there are others who offer up the same opinions and behaviours, so in the end you don't achieve anything of note.
This is the same for Labour, they have selected a leader who represents what they want to represent .. so the removal of these leaders will not change anything, it has to happen at grass roots and they have to appeal to a wider audience.
Say what you like about Blair, but he was wise enough to realise that the middle ground holds those voters, the edges are just minorities who are in conflict.


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## Wolf (Dec 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I also think we are all also partly culpable as we accept what is said by many biased sources or refer back to what happened years, or in some cases decades ago, when deciding who deserves our vote. The parties have changed a lot in recent years, arguably more in the last 5 years then in decades before. This has mostly involved swings to the extremes so the parties who many of us would have voted for happily are no longer the same parties.

You could argue actually the main parties do actually have good leaders based on what those parties currently stand for, I suppose the question is how much of that could or should we buy into.  And I suppose what is the alternative. I've said it for a long time but tell me what you want to do and what your vision is and I'll listen, start slagging off the other parties and I just switch off as to me it just exposes the paucity of your own ideas. Vote for us as the other party is allegedly crap is just negative reactionary politics and takes us no where IMHO.
		
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Totally agree that the public and social media loving drama age we live in is having a huge affect in being responsible for the childish way its all being conducted, a scroll through my feed alone sees people thinking they're political activists and economic experts but all they actual post is childish remarks slagging others off. 

I'd argue that they don't have good leaders but that's my own opinion on those people and we all differ in that. But your last point totally agree once the slagging starts I switch off as for me they lose integrity and validity.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

In my experience GE campaigns have been at this low level for many years now.

Unfulfillable promises from all sides,  negatives thrown at  the other side, ancient history dragged up (Corbyn's Sinn Fein meetings, Johnson's remarks about single mothers; both over 25 years ago but still being brought up).

2016 referendum was equally as bad so we really shouldn't be surprised this time around.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not just â€œan mpâ€ but the PM.
If he canâ€™t face a few tough questions from Neil how can he cope against ruthless, equally well educated, better prepared and more knowledgeable world leaders.
Can he be trusted in times of brinksmanship or national and international emergency?
		
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And so we recall David Davis - our own tough negotiator - where he these days?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

I worry about our PM - by the end of his AM interview yesterday morning he looked very frazzled.  And his short term memory seemed to be at fault throughout - though it seems that he can remember back to 2008 forgetting everything in between.  Has he remembered that Parliament passed his Squeens Peach and apologised for his misrecall.  He may have tweeted an apology...dunno.

Meanwhile the excuses from his fans and supporters for him not subjecting himself to an AN grilling go on - sadly - though he did say to Marr that he'd be interviewed by any Andrew.  Now *that *would be interesting if it was a different Andrew but one in the news these days...I guess there would be a fair amount of common ground for them to discuss - well - perhaps the only time they'll have 'done' anything 'common'


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Totally agree that the public and social media loving drama age we live in is having a huge affect in being responsible for the childish way its all being conducted, a scroll through my feed alone sees people thinking they're political activists and economic experts but all they actual post is childish remarks slagging others off.

*I'd argue that they don't have good leaders but that's my own opinion on those people and we all differ in that. *But your last point totally agree once the slagging starts I switch off as for me they lose integrity and validity.
		
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I suppose I could have worded it better in that they have 'appropriate' leaders for where the parties are at. In that they are all pretty good at energizing their fanatical voter base, but not very good on the 'unity/governing for all and not the believers' type of thing . Agree that good is possible not the best descriptor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

Piece said:



			We have had daily leaflets from the Lib Dem party through the door. All slagging off Tory and Brexit parties...

They are all at it. Constant leaflet dropping from the LDs. I hope all this marketing is netted off environmentally.
		
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We are getting it also.  Nothing so far from Tories or Labour.  The hustings last week in town found Jeremy Hunt getting a very hard time from the majority of the audience and the LDs clearly 'sniff blood'.  Bit over-stretching themselves I think as TBP are not standing.  That said - I am in a strong Remain voting area and the National Health Action Party were in 2nd place in 2017.

BTW - in complaining about the leafleting how else would parties get their message around all homes in a constituency?


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I liked the comment:

Interviewer: Right, lets talk about the ecconomy.

Sturgeon: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland,Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Please, the dog food salesman is a joke up here.


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			In my experience GE campaigns have been at this low level for many years now.

Unfulfillable promises from all sides,  negatives thrown at  the other side, ancient history dragged up (Corbyn's Sinn Fein meetings, Johnson's remarks about single mothers; both over 25 years ago but still being brought up).

2016 referendum was equally as bad so we really shouldn't be surprised this time around.
		
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Don't agree. It all changed after 2014, when one side saw they could lie without fear of consequences, indeed even the stuff they promised ended up a lie as they followed through with none of it. Politicians used to evade a question, they didn;t lie. Now they just flat out lie, and by they, I mean Tories almost exclusively. 

Until the law is tightened, and breaking election law carries real punishments, then this is only going to get worse.


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## Piece (Dec 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are getting it also.  Nothing so far from Tories or Labour.  BTW - in complaining about the leafleting how else would parties get their message around all homes in a constituency?
		
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There's leafletting and then there's excess. I've had TWO LD ones today already and it's only part way through the day. Every day for the last two weeks, even a personal letter. Last few elections the LD leaflet campaign was fine (very little Tory no Labour) but this time it is way, way, intense.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Who cares about the cost .. let's get the votes!!!!!!!!!
Slightly different strategy to the Tories, but a strategy all the same.     

Click to expand...

Guy on the radio said they would fund this by cancelling all road upgrades and using all revenue from car tax, can'y find a link, but as they say no smoke without fire.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Don't agree. It all changed after 2014, when one side saw they could lie without fear of consequences, indeed even the stuff they promised ended up a lie as they followed through with none of it. Politicians used to evade a question, they didn;t lie. Now they just flat out lie, and by they, I mean Tories almost exclusively.

Until the law is tightened, and breaking election law carries real punishments, then this is only going to get worse.
		
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I can remember being "misled" by Wilson , Thatcher and Blair. 

Ridiculous to suggest that this is a new phenomenon and that one side is worse than others. 

They have all been at it for years.


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## drdel (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Don't agree. It all changed after 2014, when one side saw they could lie without fear of consequences, indeed even the stuff they promised ended up a lie as they followed through with none of it. Politicians used to evade a question, they didn;t lie. Now they just flat out lie, and by they, I mean Tories almost exclusively.

Until the law is tightened, and breaking election law carries real punishments, then this is only going to get worse.
		
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Lying is not a recent invention by MPs . Didn't the LDs change tact when in coalition and since Labour hasn't been in power how do we know if they would have lied and didn't ALL parties agree to enact the referendum result and enact Art 50?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

Piece said:



			There's leafletting and then there's excess. I've had TWO LD ones today already and it's only part way through the day. Every day for the last two weeks, even a personal letter. Last few elections the LD leaflet campaign was fine (very little Tory no Labour) but this time it is way, way, intense.
		
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There is though a limit to what they can spend.  We've also had three.  Two on Friday -  one today.  You've probably had the same (I assume) national one - _The Past (picture of Johnson) or The Future (picture of Swinson) - Labour are out of the Race._

And the constituency specific ones hammer the same message - but with a _Labour Cannot Win Here_ message (and they can't).  But LibDems just might...though as I said - seems an over-stretch to unseat Jeremy Hunt in a Surrey constituency.

The irony of that is that I was thinking - OK Brexit - OK Tory government - but if not OK Johnson PM - then who?
Raab, Rees-Mogg, Truss, Cleverly, Patel, Javid, Williamson, Gove...?  Aaargh!!  But I could probably put up with Hunt - maybe Hancock


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I can remember being "misled" by Wilson , Thatcher and Blair.

Ridiculous to suggest that this is a new phenomenon and that one side is worse than others.

They have all been at it for years.
		
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Politicians rarely lied, they'd evade, they'd obfuscate, they'd go off on a tangent to avoid answering, they didn't flat out lie like Johnson and Farage. There is no doubt the Tories are currently the worst. there's equally no doubt the SNP don't undulge in this nonsense, and it seems  to be to their detriment, they'd be as well joining in.


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			Lying is not a recent invention by MPs . Didn't the LDs change tact when in coalition and since Labour hasn't been in power how do we know if they would have lied and didn't ALL parties agree to enact the referendum result and enact Art 50?
		
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Breaking a promise made isn't the same as lying up front.  Look at the catalogue of lies BJ has already told, he hasn't even had a chance to break promises yet.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Politicians rarely lied, they'd evade, they'd obfuscate, they'd go off on a tangent to avoid answering, they didn't flat out lie like Johnson and Farage. There is no doubt the Tories are currently the worst. there's equally no doubt the SNP don't undulge in this nonsense, and it seems  to be to their detriment, they'd be as well joining in.
		
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Sorry but to the vast majority of the country the SNP are an irrelevance so whether or not they are guilty we would not know. 

Were Blair's weapons of mass destruction not a lie, Wilson's pound in your pocket?

Lying is often subjective, what one calls a lie others call manipulation of the truth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



*Sorry but to the vast majority of the country the SNP are an irrelevance so whether or not they are guilty we would not know.*

Were Blair's weapons of mass destruction not a lie, Wilson's pound in your pocket?

Lying is often subjective, what one calls a lie others call manipulation of the truth.
		
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And there we have a statement of the problem facing the unionists in Scotland - when voters in rUK consider the governing party in Scotland to be an irrelevance.  For any voter in the rUK who values the Union, then the SNP should be *hugely *relevant and *hugely *important - like it or not.

Anyway - has Johnson apologised yet for misspeaking yesterday to AM and the watching electorate about Parliament having blocked the Queen's Speech.  Or did he just 'lie' to reinforce the Tory _Johnson-Good; Parliament-Bad _narrative.


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but to the vast majority of the country the SNP are an irrelevance so whether or not they are guilty we would not know.

Were Blair's weapons of mass destruction not a lie, Wilson's pound in your pocket?

Lying is often subjective, what one calls a lie others call manipulation of the truth.
		
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No the two are different, which is my point entirely. Blair would say his intelligence reports said there were WMD. Did he know different and lie, we'll never know for sure, nor who & at what point they "sexed up" the intelligence?

Wilson, again, technically he wasn't lying, anything made in Britain didn't change price.

These two are exactly what I mean, whereas the Tories are just lying. I mean for god's sake, "there's going to be 50,000 *more* nurses", that's an actual policy that's a lie. As is "40 new hospitals".


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## HughJars (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but to the vast majority of the country the SNP are an irrelevance so whether or not they are guilty we would not know.
.
		
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Third biggest party, about to get bigger, and here you are spouting off on politics while admitting you know nothing about the SNP? wow


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And there we have a statement of the problem facing the unionists in Scotland - when voters in rUK consider the governing party in Scotland to be an irrelevance.  For any voter in the rUK who values the Union, then the SNP should be *hugely *relevant and *hugely *important - like it or not.
		
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What is the raison d'etre of the SNP?

In national terms are they anything other than a single issue party?

Are they fielding candidates outside of Scotland?

If they achieve their objective then what relevance is Scotland to the rest of the UK?

Are we all to be  given a  vote if there should be a further referendum on Scottish independence?

Answer each of those questions before suggesting SNP are relevant to the vast majority of the electorate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I didn't see the interview and so I asked Doon what the 4 blatant lies were
		
Click to expand...

Missed your request sorry,
It is freely available on the web, only takes a couple of clicks for you to find out.
Off the top of my head.

Corbyn says he will shut down MI5 [It was actually a McDonald ref]
Saying SNP have to join the Euro
20,000 additional policemen.
50,000 more Nurses.

There you go, two clicks and take your pick,

https://www.bing.com/search?q=johns...s=n&sk=&cvid=f9eb11712e0d4ba7a5a841900c48551c


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## JamesR (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Third biggest party, about to get bigger, and here you are spouting off on politics while admitting you know nothing about the SNP? wow
		
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It may sound crazy; but even though they are the 3rd biggest party, and their vote (in HoC) therefore holds a lot of weight, and they are anti-Brexit, they are pretty much an irrelevance to me because I'm not Scottish and they aren't standing in my constituency.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			No the two are different, which is my point entirely. Blair would say his intelligence reports said there were WMD. Did he know different and lie, we'll never know for sure, nor who & at what point they "sexed up" the intelligence?

Wilson, again, technically he wasn't lying, anything made in Britain didn't change price.

These two are exactly what I mean, whereas the Tories are just lying. I mean for god's sake, "there's going to be 50,000 *more* nurses", that's an actual policy that's a lie. As is "40 new hospitals".
		
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And Labour's current promises to WASPI women?

Cut rail fares by a third?

Neither yet costed but still "promised".

Where is any of that any different?

And yes it was known that Blair and Campbell were lying on WMD.

And Wilson and his then Chancellor knew that they were misleading the public to get us to believe that devaluation would have no effect upon us.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Third biggest party, about to get bigger, and here you are spouting off on politics while admitting you know nothing about the SNP? wow
		
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Not available as a choice here so irrelevant.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not available as a choice here so irrelevant.
		
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maybe to you personally but not as far as the current election is concerened.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2019)

JamesR said:



			It may sound crazy; but even though they are the 3rd biggest party, and their vote (in HoC) therefore holds a lot of weight, and they are anti-Brexit, they are pretty much an irrelevance to me because I'm not Scottish and they aren't standing in my constituency.
		
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Come counting time on 12th Dec and the SNP may hold the balance between a Labour or Tory government I think you may find them of influence.


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but to the vast majority of the country the SNP are an irrelevance so whether or not they are guilty we would not know.

Were Blair's weapons of mass destruction not a lie, Wilson's pound in your pocket?

Lying is often subjective, what one calls a lie others call manipulation of the truth.
		
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The SNP's Economic White Paper pre the last IndyRef... Mmm, not many unicorn galloping up Princess St.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Come counting time on 12th Dec and the SNP may hold the balance between a Labour or Tory government I think you may find them of influence.
		
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And therein lies the failure of our electoral system. 

A party that is not available as a choice to 90% of the electorate can support a minority government. 

And before you ask, yes I feel exactly the same towards the DUP and Plaid Cymru.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And therein lies the failure of our electoral system.

A party that is not available as a choice to 90% of the electorate can support a minority government.

And before you ask, yes I feel exactly the same towards the DUP and Plaid Cymru.
		
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Most of the Scots posters on here have been saying for the last 5 years how totally useless the Westminster system is.
Outdated and unfit for purpose.
A modern voting system would break up the two party monopoly and give the UK public a more representative parliament.
Guess which two parties would block any hope of it happening.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Most of the Scots posters on here have been saying for the last 5 years how totally useless the Westminster system is.
Outdated and unfit for purpose.
A modern voting system would break up the two party monopoly and give the UK public a more representative parliament.
Guess which two parties would block any hope of it happening.

Click to expand...

And I have long shared that view and my entire voting life I have wanted to see some form ofPR introduced that would more accurately reflect the choice of the people.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I didn't see the interview and so I asked Doon what the 4 blatant lies were
		
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I thought your 'and they were' comment was agreeing that the British public were stupid.
Thought you had gone all Pinocchio on us.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

I do find the comment about wmds all a bit silly ..
We know there were none, but who reported out they existed and who has benefited from that lie ?
We certainly haven't, nor have the  Iraquies (dunno how you spell that and nor does the spell checker ).
I can only point the finger at the right wing Bush administration who duped the British .. should we have been more diligent ? yes, but the CIA are bloody good liars (Boris needs to go to Langley and get some tips) 

So I find blaming Blair a little opportunistic from the people on the right side and we never talk about how Thatcher made the Falklands look an interesting enterprise for Argentina ...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

JamesR said:



			It may sound crazy; but even though they are the 3rd biggest party, and their vote (in HoC) therefore holds a lot of weight, and they are anti-Brexit, they are pretty much an irrelevance to me because I'm not Scottish and they aren't standing in my constituency.
		
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This is exactly the issue, they are only in one area of the UK.
Thankfully from my perspective they are left of centre, had they been right of centre we would be governed by the Tories all the time, but then we would not have any complaints or comments about wee jimmy krankie....


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I do find the comment about wmds all a bit silly ..
We know there were none, but who reported out they existed and who has benefited from that lie ?
We certainly haven't, nor have the  Iraquies (dunno how you spell that and nor does the spell checker ).
I can only point the finger at the right wing Bush administration who duped the British .. should we have been more diligent ? yes, but the CIA are bloody good liars (Boris needs to go to Langley and get some tips)

So I find blaming Blair a little opportunistic from the people on the right side and we never talk about how Thatcher made the Falklands look an interesting enterprise for Argentina ...
		
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Blair was the very definition of an opportunist!

It is naive in the extreme to think that he was duped by the CIA. He may have had any number of reasons for involving this country in  an illegal war.

Regarding Thatcher and the Falklands conflict it's ridiculous to attempt to define that as right/left issue or to believe that there was not some opposition to it in this country.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Blair was the very definition of an opportunist!

It is naive in the extreme to think that he was duped by the CIA. He may have had any number of reasons for involving this country in  an illegal war.

Regarding Thatcher and the Falklands conflict it's ridiculous to attempt to define that as right/left issue or to believe that there was not some opposition to it in this country.
		
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What did Thatcher do about the nationality rights of the Falkland Islanders ?


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Missed your request sorry,
It is freely available on the web, only takes a couple of clicks for you to find out.
Off the top of my head.

Corbyn says he will shut down MI5 [It was actually a McDonald ref] *and Diane Abbott.*
Saying SNP have to join the Euro
20,000 additional policemen.
50,000 more Nurses.

There you go, two clicks and take your pick,

https://www.bing.com/search?q=johnson's+four+lies+to+Marr&form=EDGSPH&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=f9eb11712e0d4ba7a5a841900c48551c&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=johnson's+four+lies+to+marr&sc=0-27&qs=n&sk=&cvid=f9eb11712e0d4ba7a5a841900c48551c

Click to expand...

As mentioned our beloved Shadow Home Secretary has spoken about wanting to get rid of MI5. And as much has been rightly said about Boris telling porkies in an interview. There is also a glowing concern as regards why a lot of Labours front bench are not giving interviews. Reasons/rumours range from front benchers being thick  to not agreeing with Corbyns policies.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Blair was the very definition of an opportunist!

It is naive in the extreme to think that he was duped by the CIA. He may have had any number of reasons for involving this country in  an illegal war.

Regarding Thatcher and the Falklands conflict it's ridiculous to attempt to define that as right/left issue or to believe that there was not some opposition to it in this country.
		
Click to expand...

I'm no Blair Fan, but what precisely did he gain by the GW?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			What did Thatcher do about the nationality rights of the Falkland Islanders ?
		
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I have already said that I do not consider the Falklands conflict and its aftermath to be our finest hour.

Presented as being a fight for the rights of the islanders to determine their own status but in truth had far more to do with minerals and oil rights.

However,  two wrongs do not make  a right and it in no way absolves Blair from his guilt over Iraq.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm no Blair Fan, but what precisely did he gain by the GW?
		
Click to expand...

Protected the interests of his friends within the international oil industry.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			As mentioned our beloved Shadow Home Secretary has spoken about wanting to get rid of MI5. And as much has been rightly said about Boris telling porkies in an interview. There is also a glowing concern as regards why a lot of Labours front bench are not giving interviews. Reasons/rumours range from front benchers being thick to not agreeing with Corbyns policies.
		
Click to expand...

tashy dear boy, please don't keep caller her "thick” its uncalled for esp from someone who can't go and buy a stamp without asking advice on here


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			As mentioned our beloved Shadow Home Secretary has spoken about wanting to get rid of MI5. And as much has been rightly said about Boris telling porkies in an interview. There is also a glowing concern as regards why a lot of Labours front bench are not giving interviews. Reasons/rumours range from front benchers being thick to not agreeing with Corbyns policies.
		
Click to expand...

See #2581


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Protected the interests of his friends within the international oil industry.
		
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so wasn't anything to do with the yanks?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Protected the interests of his friends within the international oil industry.
		
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Remember the commons also backed him ... they were not mislead either.
Robin Cook went against him, and that was accepted no one complained they had a say on the matter and they backed it up. 
He was duped, and so were most of the Americans ..


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so wasn't anything to do with the yanks?
		
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Are American companies and investors not involved in the oil industry?

Plus everything in the Middle East tends to be played out against the background of US foreign policy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Remember the commons also backed him ... they were not mislead either.
Robin Cook went against him, and that was accepted no one complained they had a say on the matter and they backed it up.
He was duped, and so were most of the Americans ..
		
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If you really believe he was duped rather than being instrumental in misleading you must believe that he was amongst the most incapable of Prime Ministers.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Are American companies and investors not involved in the oil industry?

Plus everything in the Middle East tends to be played out against the background of US foreign policy.
		
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thats what i said, Blair was the fall guy, hes own fault mind for believing it.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

No costings as yet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201538366099116032


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			If you really believe he was duped rather than being instrumental in misleading you must believe that he was amongst the most incapable of Prime Ministers.
		
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No I think he was very capable and we had a very good period under his leadership.
I just think we have glossed over the actions of Thatcher and if we are going to perpetually mention Blair and WMDs, then we have to revisit Thatcher and the Falkands .. which then makes it all very pointless to mention because they are both deemed to be bad. 

In fact they don't really have any relevance on the future or the candidates standing now...


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			No costings as yet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201538366099116032

Click to expand...

why do you keep posting the ravings of a far right website  like its real news?

they even say if you like this site you will also like JRM and Toby Young


----------



## chrisd (Dec 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Missed your request sorry,
It is freely available on the web, only takes a couple of clicks for you to find out.
Off the top of my head.

Corbyn says he will shut down MI5 [It was actually a McDonald ref]
Saying SNP have to join the Euro
20,000 additional policemen.
50,000 more Nurses.

There you go, two clicks and take your pick,

https://www.bing.com/search?q=johnson's+four+lies+to+Marr&form=EDGSPH&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=f9eb11712e0d4ba7a5a841900c48551c&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=johnson's+four+lies+to+marr&sc=0-27&qs=n&sk=&cvid=f9eb11712e0d4ba7a5a841900c48551c

Click to expand...

Just wanted to be sure, thanks for enlightening me!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I think he was very capable and we had a very good period under his leadership.
I just think we have glossed over the actions of Thatcher and if we are going to perpetually mention Blair and WMDs, then we have to revisit Thatcher and the Falkands .. which then makes it all very pointless to mention because they are both deemed to be bad.

In fact they don't really have any relevance on the future or the candidates standing now...
		
Click to expand...

The reference to Blair and the WMDs was in relation to a suggestion that misleading the public was a new phenomenon. 

It also included references to other Prime Ministers. 

As for Mr Blair I would argue that he was a consummate politician but if you are to claim that he was responsible for the so called good years under his watch then you would have to accept that he and Brown were culpable for the post 2008 recession.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			tashy dear boy, please don't keep caller her "thick “ its uncalled for esp from someone who can't go and buy a stamp without asking advice on here

Click to expand...

Normal stuff then. Anti Labour post and you insult the poster. Cosmic!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			tashy dear boy, please don't keep caller her "thick as pig shit"  its uncalled for esp from someone who can't go and buy a stamp without asking advice on here

Click to expand...

Who is her, or do you mean those as in more than one. Let me give you an example. 

Jeremy Corbyn says that the 16 yr old ISIS girl that went out to Syria to help murder non believers like the toe rag on London Bridge. Was a 16 yr naive child that didn't know better. Now he is saying 16 yr olds are educated enough to vote. So which is it Patrick. Or who is it.
You know my problem Patrick. I am a floating voter. That means I can slag off the Labour Party and its thick as pig muck front benchers, and the Tory party and its Lying leaders. The problem is with that, I get complaints from both Tories and Labour loyalists ( and SNP DFT😉, not leaving you out ). Your Labour, so have a go at Tory and Vica versa. The differance between Paul42, Socket etc etc is they post things that make me think about there parties, there comments stimulate. The price of stamps don't.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			The reference to Blair and the WMDs was in relation to a suggestion that misleading the public was a new phenomenon.

It also included references to other Prime Ministers.

As for Mr Blair I would argue that he was a consummate politician but if you are to claim that he was responsible for the so called good years under his watch then you would have to accept that he and Brown were culpable for the post 2008 recession.
		
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Yep, they de-shackled the banks. The banks started buying toxic debt... pretty dumb stuff. 
But don’t you ever ask the question, why they de-shackled the banks?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

Moving statement/open letter to us all and to all politicians in the Guardian today from the father of Jack Merritt disowning from his son's memory so much that Johnson has said and that his party have done over the last ten years - and disowning especially those pushing a 'lock em up for ever' as part of a political agenda off the back of his son's death.  I hope that there is reflection by politicians on the words of Jack Merritt's dad, and that the discussion of blame/what next is removed from the General Election debate.  Necessary action can be taken by government in the background, and the next government can review policy.  But not now in front of the media and the public.  That can wait ten days.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What is the raison d'etre of the SNP?

In national terms are they anything other than a single issue party?

Are they fielding candidates outside of Scotland?

If they achieve their objective then what relevance is Scotland to the rest of the UK?

Are we all to be  given a  vote if there should be a further referendum on Scottish independence?

Answer each of those questions before suggesting SNP are relevant to the vast majority of the electorate.
		
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In national terms they are the principal (not only) party whose success could lead to the break up of the union - that is why what the SNP say is relevant to the wider UK electorate.  Were Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland not seen by many Scots as simply being subservient to the Westminster parties, then they could certainly defeat the SNP in Scotland and remove the risk of independence (for the time being).  But as much of the Scottish electorate look at Westminster Labour and Conservative (especially) and want little or nothing to do with them or their policies, that is unlikely to happen.  You cannot separate political discussion and decisions in and for Westminster, from the consequences those decisions could have upon the union.

So yes - from the other thread - Brexit - even a No Deal Brexit - might be what the rUK electorate decides through it's representation in Westminster - but the rUK electorate should choose that route *knowing *the benefits that Brexit will have for it - and consider and balance these benefits against the possible break up of the union and the chaos that could well ensue.


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## Dando (Dec 2, 2019)

So now red jezza is going to try and con commuters by slashing rail costs by a third


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Who is her, or do you mean those as in more than one. Let me give you an example.

Jeremy Corbyn says that the 16 yr old ISIS girl that went out to Syria to help murder non believers like the toe rag on London Bridge. Was a 16 yr naive child that didn't know better. Now he is saying 16 yr olds are educated enough to vote. So which is it Patrick. Or who is it.
You know my problem Patrick. I am a floating voter. That means I can slag off the Labour Party and its thick as pig muck front benchers, and the Tory party and its Lying leaders. The problem is with that, I get complaints from both Tories and Labour loyalists ( and SNP DFT😉, not leaving you out ). Your Labour, so have a go at Tory and Vica versa. The differance between Paul42, Socket etc etc is they post things that make me think about there parties, there comments stimulate. The price of stamps don't.
		
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Tashy dear boy you shouldn't always believe what you read... 
i don't have a problem with you slagging off who ever, i don't think its far to call anyone thick when they are cleary not

can't really direct you to anything from my party.... they are an irrenavance and you can't vote for them anyway


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			So now red jezza is going to try and con commuters by slashing rail costs by a third
		
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Well, bearing in mind the amount of support the various rail companies receive - think Virgin got £4bn to take on the franchise, and the ticket revenue for last year was almost £2bn just how much will be needed to run the nationalised railways let alone pay of the bonds? 

The guy is attempting to buy votes. Its not even subtle. £58bn for the WASPI's and now slashing fares... the guy is dangerous.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't have a problem with you slagging off who ever, i don't think its far to call anyone thick  when they are cleary not

Click to expand...

I think another of my problems is I don't like people who take us for fools. I don't meanjust me. There's no doubt that most of these MPs are educated. But most of them couldn't lie straight in bed. Oh how I long for a straight answer to a straight question.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In national terms they are the principal (not only) party whose success could lead to the break up of the union - that is why what the SNP say is relevant to the wider UK electorate.  Were Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland not seen by many Scots as simply being subservient to the Westminster parties, then they could certainly defeat the SNP in Scotland and remove the risk of independence (for the time being).  But as much of the Scottish electorate look at Westminster Labour and Conservative (especially) and want little or nothing to do with them or their policies, that is unlikely to happen.  You cannot separate political discussion and decisions in and for Westminster, from the consequences those decisions could have upon the union.

So yes - from the other thread - Brexit - even a No Deal Brexit - might be what the rUK electorate decides through it's representation in Westminster - but the rUK electorate should choose that route *knowing *the benefits that Brexit will have for it - and consider and balance these benefits against the possible break up of the union and the chaos that could well ensue.
		
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None of which makes the SNP relevant to the rest of the UK.

If we were to have a vote in any future independence referendum it would be a different matter.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			None of which makes the SNP relevant to the rest of the UK.

If we were to have a vote in any future independence referendum it would be a different matter.
		
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why would you get vote for Scottish Independance, unless you live in Scotland?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

miners pensions now


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201562083042766848


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## ger147 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			None of which makes the SNP relevant to the rest of the UK.

If we were to have a vote in any future independence referendum it would be a different matter.
		
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Extremely unlikely IMO but they could form part of the next government of the whole of the UK...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2019)

sold


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201487328042274816


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			None of which makes the SNP relevant to the rest of the UK.

If we were to have a vote in any future independence referendum it would be a different matter.
		
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There is SNP representation in Westminster. They represent Scottish voters. Of course they are relevant. Westminster isn't just for the English. DUP are there, Plaid Cymru are there...  what a bizarre post!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why would you get vote for Scottish Independance, unless you live in Scotland?
		
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Exactly proving my original point. 

If we cannot vote on the SNP's sole issue then politically they are an irrelevance to us.


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## patricks148 (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Exactly proving my original point.

If we cannot vote on the SNP's sole issue then politically they are an irrelevance to us.
		
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you can't vote on NI issues either, can you say they are an irrelavance too?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There is SNP representation in Westminster. They represent Scottish voters. Of course they are relevant. Westminster isn't just for the English. DUP are there, Plaid Cymru are there...  what a bizarre post!
		
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Far from bizarre!

What is that party's objective? 

If they achieve that objective they will no longer be sitting in Westminster, so where is the relevance to those of us that cannot vote for them,  or indeed   specifically against them.

Aside from independence their policies on social and economic issues are understandably focused on Scotland so, again, where is their relevance to those of us outside of Scotland?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you can't vote on NI issues either, can you say they are an irrelavance too?
		
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Yes see post #2650.


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Far from bizarre!

What is that party's objective?

If they achieve that objective they will no longer be sitting in Westminster, so where is the relevance to those of us that cannot vote for them,  or indeed   specifically against them.

Aside from independence their policies on social and economic issues are understandably focused on Scotland so, again, where is their relevance to those of us outside of Scotland?
		
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Their relevance was made very clear by Sturgeon. They are willing to prop up a Labour minority govt.

For any Labour supporter who doesn’t want Sturgeon anywhere near power in Westminster they have a difficult choice.

For any Tory supporter hearing Sturgeon speak, they now have an even greater reason to get out there and vote.

Surely you have heard Sturgeon speak on this? Surely you understand the relevance? Or are you just having a poke at the SNP supporters?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			miners pensions now


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201562083042766848

Click to expand...

It's kinda old news, the robbing of miners pensions has gone on for decades. Labour have promised to look at the current 50/50 split of surplus monies which has made the governments about £4 Billion. The problem with a lot of miners is, why did Labour not sort this when they were in Government. The general thought is that it is now a Labour policy to gain votes and not to right a wrong.
On a bigger scale, Labour didn't do owt to help the miners, so why should they help women who have had there pensions affected.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Their relevance was made very clear by Sturgeon. They are willing to prop up a Labour minority govt.

For any Labour supporter who doesn’t want Sturgeon anywhere near power in Westminster they have a difficult choice.

For any Tory supporter hearing Sturgeon speak, they now have an even greater reason to get out there and vote.

Surely you have heard Sturgeon speak on this? Surely you understand the relevance? Or are you just having a poke at the SNP supporters?
		
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Not having a poke at anyone. 

Simply stating that  the SNP  and their  policies are irrelevant to me in the terms of the election. 

It matters not if I agree or disagree with them as I am not able to express my view through the ballot box.

The fact that they might enter into some form of coalition with Labour is again largely irrelevant as I cannot influence that decision. 

As is often said in sport "your only concerns are those issues which you can affect yourself ".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			It's kinda old news, the robbing of miners pensions has gone on for decades. Labour have promised to look at the current 50/50 split of surplus monies which has made the governments about £4 Billion. The problem with a lot of miners is, why did Labour not sort this when they were in Government. The general thought is that it is now a Labour policy to gain votes and not to right a wrong.
On a bigger scale, Labour didn't do owt to help the miners, so why should they help women who have had there pensions affected.
		
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Wow tiger! You can’t have it both ways!
One of the issues that led to the Labour Party going back to its roots of the Union Support and more left leaning was the belief Blair etc had gone too far to the right, had lost touch with the working class and had failed to readdress the years of damage the tories had done and not reversed some of the anti-union legislation.
This has led to the rise in momentum and the more left wing politicians coming to prominence.
Now you have a Labour Party willing to address these issues and your still moaning as well as bringing the waspi women into it! ie, I’m alright jack!
Surely after all the years of frustration and moaning you should be rejoicing and voting Labour, because I’ll tell you what, you’ve no chance of the pension theft being corrected voting tory!


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not having a poke at anyone.

Simply stating that  the SNP  and their  policies are irrelevant to me in the terms of the election.

It matters not if I agree or disagree with them as I am not able to express my view through the ballot box.

The fact that they might enter into some form of coalition with Labour is again largely irrelevant as I cannot influence that decision.

As is often said in sport "your only concerns are those issues which you can affect yourself ".
		
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Might be irrelevant to you in terms of their policies but not necessarily to who ends up in Number 10. I suppose the LibDems are also irrelevant too, as are the Brexit Party...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Might be irrelevant to you in terms of their policies but not necessarily to who ends up in Number 10. I suppose the LibDems are also irrelevant too, as are the Brexit Party...
		
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In both  cases I could,  if I so desired, vote for those parties. 

That is not a possibility open to me with the SNP.

I might not vote for Labour  if I did not want the Scot Nats involved in a national coalition but that still doesn't mean that SNP policies have any real relevance to me as those policies are not aimed at me in the English Midlands.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wow tiger! You can’t have it both ways!
One of the issues that led to the Labour Party going back to its roots of the Union Support and more left leaning was the belief Blair etc had gone too far to the right, had lost touch with the working class and had failed to readdress the years of damage the tories had done and not reversed some of the anti-union legislation.
This has led to the rise in momentum and the more left wing politicians coming to prominence.
Now you have a Labour Party willing to address these issues and your still moaning as well as bringing the waspi women into it! ie, I’m alright jack!
Surely after all the years of frustration and moaning you should be rejoicing and voting Labour, because I’ll tell you what, you’ve no chance of the pension theft being corrected voting tory!
		
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How long have Labour been vocal in supporting the miner re there pension theft. Two weeks. Hmmmm, wonder why? A few Labour Mps in mining communities have been vocal for some time but mainly because they have had there ears bent by the miners. I have actively been following this on FB groups and thousands of miners have been disgusted by Labours inactivity to support the miners cause. So much so they have said they will not vote for them full stop. Two weeks ago BJ turned up in Mansfield and said that he will sort out the pension theft. Another lie? Time will tell. Within 24 hours, so will Labour. Smart. So who do i vote for. There is a real sense of rejection of Labour in Mansfield. Only tonight the local news ( East Midlands today) went to the streets were Boris went two weeks ago. Miners who were on strike and despise Thatcher are voting for Conservative. Two words why. Jeremy Corbyn. 
So who do i believe, BJ or Jezza.
 Re the waspi women. I feel for them coz i have been robbed for years. They will feel my pain and bitterness. There may be light at the end of the tunnel for me. But what about the thousands of miners who have died early through mining diseases. Bit late for them. Yes am moaning. because my and thousands of other plight is being addressed not because it is right, but because it buys votes, for both parties.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			How long have Labour been vocal in supporting the miner re there pension theft. Two weeks. Hmmmm, wonder why? A few Labour Mps in mining communities have been vocal for some time but mainly because they have had there ears bent by the miners. I have actively been following this on FB groups and thousands of miners have been disgusted by Labours inactivity to support the miners cause. So much so they have said they will not vote for them full stop. Two weeks ago BJ turned up in Mansfield and said that he will sort out the pension theft. Another lie? Time will tell. Within 24 hours, so will Labour. Smart. So who do i vote for. There is a real sense of rejection of Labour in Mansfield. Only tonight the local news ( East Midlands today) went to the streets were Boris went two weeks ago. Miners who were on strike and despise Thatcher are voting for Conservative. Two words why. Jeremy Corbyn.
So who do i believe, BJ or Jezza.
Re the waspi women. I feel for them coz i have been robbed for years. They will feel my pain and bitterness. There may be light at the end of the tunnel for me. But what about the thousands of miners who have died early through mining diseases. Bit late for them. Yes am moaning. because my and thousands of other plight is being addressed not because it is right, but because it buys votes, for both parties.
		
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So look past the leader and see what party is best for you, I can guarantee no tory has ever cared about the working class. And yes I totally agree with about the past, unfortunately that can’t be changed, but you can influence the future.


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So look past the leader and see what party is best for you, I can guarantee no tory has ever cared about the working class. And yes I totally agree with about the past, unfortunately that can’t be changed, but you can influence the future.
		
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Do you believe the top table in any party cares about the working class? And what future for the UK from either Tory or Labour?

You said a few weeks back that Corbyn was untrustworthy. If Labour gets in Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum will be there a lot longer than you might like. The same applies to Johnson and his top table. Is there a lesser of two evils?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So look past the leader and see what party is best for you, I can guarantee no tory has ever cared about the working class. And yes I totally agree with about the past, unfortunately that can’t be changed, but you can influence the future.
		
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I mentioned to Missis T that the party that i could relate to was the LIB Dems, however the fact they will ignore a democratic vote kicked that in the head.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do you believe the top table in any party cares about the working class? And what future for the UK from either Tory or Labour?

You said a few weeks back that Corbyn was untrustworthy. If Labour gets in Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum will be there a lot longer than you might like. The same applies to Johnson and his top table. Is there a lesser of two evils?
		
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You know my feelings on Corbyn and McDonnell, but right now I see Labour as a party caring more, I watched the AM interview with boris, didn’t think AM was very fair, kept interrupting boris, but whether that was born out of frustration I’m not sure, every answer on tory policies was back to brexit and Labour bad.
I’d genuinely like to hear a tory mp (anyone) sell me their vision.
Even today we’ve had the IFS come out and say in a worse case no deal brexit scenario the tories will have to borrow more than Labour are saying in their manifesto and look how that’s being ridiculed.
Answer from the tory party, we’re not planning a worst case scenario! No sh!t sherlock, but the picture you keep painting about Labour’s plan is worst case!


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You know my feelings on Corbyn and McDonnell, but right now I see Labour as a party caring more, I watched the AM interview with boris, didn’t think AM was very fair, kept interrupting boris, but whether that was born out of frustration I’m not sure, every answer on tory policies was back to brexit and Labour bad.
I’d genuinely like to hear a tory mp (anyone) sell me their vision.
Even today we’ve had the IFS come out and say in a worse case no deal brexit scenario the tories will have to borrow more than Labour are saying in their manifesto and look how that’s being ridiculed.
Answer from the tory party, we’re not planning a worst case scenario! No sh!t sherlock, but the picture you keep painting about Labour’s plan is worst case!
		
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It would be the Labour of Corbyn and McDonnell you'll get. The people you mistrust. Labour's policies are more caring but will that be what Labour delivers? I don't trust them to deliver on them, and I think the married allowance is a prime example of their (not) caring nature.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 2, 2019)




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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 28672

Click to expand...

Taking things off at a tangent...


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## Beezerk (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can guarantee no tory has ever cared about the working class.
		
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I guess there's a case for Labour as well, the country always seems to bankrupt after a Labour government so that isn't really great for the working man 😁


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 28672

Click to expand...

How is that relevant to this forum, do we not describe it as a family at times?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I guess there's a case for Labour as well, the country always seems to bankrupt after a Labour government so that isn't really great for the working man 😁
		
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Wasn’t bankrupt after the first Blair term and a global financial crisis had a big say in the 2nd term.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			How is that relevant to this forum, do we not describe it as a family at times?
		
Click to expand...

Yup, cheers Bro 😁👍


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2019)

In the final death throw of Browns Labour Government he went on a spending and borrowing frenzy, he increased borrowing to over 100billion a year and mainly to support his expansion of state benefits such that many found it better to stay at home than work.  The LibDems admitted they needed to work with Cameron to fix the Labour created economic disaster left by Brown.  Its the same old story, luckily Foot never got in earlier with Corbynesc policies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2019)

Unlike the 1997 Election when Blair returned 418 seats, a gain of 145.
I’m amazed how surely the tories had everything right and the Country hadn’t been affected by the global recession, global events only affect Labour, how on earth did that happen? Then shockingly Labour had 3 terms in office! Silly British public being fooled 3 times.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2019)

Getting a bit of leaflet envy here... Only the one through our letterbox thus far...


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Getting a bit of leaflet envy here... Only the one through our letterbox thus far...
		
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i'll send you my Dew Hendry SNP one if you like, no mention of anything other than local issues and what he is doing to help the area and it economy, can't see a single mention of other parties and whats bad about them.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'll send you my Dew Hendry SNP one if you like, no mention of anything other than local issues and what he is doing to help the area and it economy, can't see a single mention of other parties and whats bad about them.
		
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Any mention of needing to punish Londoners?


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## pendodave (Dec 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I guess there's a case for Labour as well, the country always seems to bankrupt after a Labour government so that isn't really great for the working man 😁
		
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In my lifetime, the very worst times to be a "working man", as opposed to a spiv, speculator or money launderer, have been peak-Thatch and the last 10 years. But there you go....


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Any mention of needing to punish Londoners?
		
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who would they do that?

well other than another 20 having to by flats in the Barbican


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2019)

What a miserable, heartless little Kingdom the UK has become under Tory rule.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200954362840977410


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)




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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			None of which makes the SNP relevant to the rest of the UK.

If we were to have a vote in any future independence referendum it would be a different matter.
		
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If the rest of the UK were to wish the union to remain intact then it is vitally important that the Conservatives and Labour parties in Scotland are able to counter what the SNP say - so what the SNP say then matters for the Conservatives and Labour parties in Scotland.  But whatever these parties might say is currently undermined in the view of many Scots by their take on the Westminster parties; their policies and the voting intentions of the rUK. 

Plus some areas of policy are not devolved to Holyrood.  And so if Westminster parties policy is divergent from that of the SNP, then that again is grist for the mill for the SNP (Brexit being the obvious example); and of course the funding of many services in Scotland is determined through the Barnett formula upon the spending on the equivalent services determined by Westminster.  Not that any of the above seems to matter one iota to Labour and Conservative Westminster parties - maybe they should give it a bit more consideration if they wish the union to remain intact.  If not that bothered - then bash on!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There is SNP representation in Westminster. They represent Scottish voters. Of course they are relevant. Westminster isn't just for the English. DUP are there, Plaid Cymru are there...  what a bizarre post!
		
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indeed - and if the SNP in Westminster had been supportive of the government on Brexit over the last three years ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I mentioned to Missis T that the party that i could relate to was the LIB Dems, however the fact they will ignore a democratic vote kicked that in the head.

Click to expand...

The LibDems will only 'ignore' a democratic vote if the will of the people as expressed in the forthcoming GE tells them to do so.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			indeed - and if the SNP in Westminster had been supportive of the government on Brexit over the last three years ?
		
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None of which alters the position of voters in England in regard to the SNP.

They are not on the ballot paper. 

BTW none of this is anti-Scottish as I am in favour of independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. In the latter case I would prefer to see a united Ireland. 

I would also like to see far more powers devolved to the English regions and away from Westminster.


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## HughJars (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And Labour's current promises to WASPI women?

Cut rail fares by a third?

Neither yet costed but still "promised".

Where is any of that any different?

And yes it was known that Blair and Campbell were lying on WMD.

And Wilson and his then Chancellor knew that they were misleading the public to get us to believe that devaluation would have no effect upon us.
		
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"promises" - they are campaign promises, they may not meet them, in which case vote them out, but that's what they say they'll do.

Meanwhile the Tories state they will add 50,000 new nurses, except they're not, their own policy clearly states it'll be 31,000. They state they'll build 40 new hospitals, except their own policy says no such thing, it's refurbishing, and only 6 at present. That's two outright lies. Whereas labour are promising a policy to those figures. You can;t say they're the same, they're not. The Tories are lying to your face.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

HughJars said:



			"promises" - they are campaign promises, they may not meet them, in which case vote them out, but that's what they say they'll do.

Meanwhile the Tories state they will add 50,000 new nurses, except they're not, their own policy clearly states it'll be 31,000. They state they'll build 40 new hospitals, except their own policy says no such thing, it's refurbishing, and only 6 at present. That's two outright lies. Whereas labour are promising a policy to those figures. You can;t say they're the same, they're not. The Tories are lying to your face.
		
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 And so are Labour!

Your one-eyed view of this is bordering on childlike.


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## HughJars (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And so are Labour!

Your one-eyed view of this is bordering on childlike.
		
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Which part of the labour policy doesn't bear up? I've given you two policy claims that the Tories have made that are patently untrue. Name one Labour one?


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			None of which alters the position of voters in England in regard to the SNP.

They are not on the ballot paper.

BTW none of this is anti-Scottish as I am in favour of independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. In the latter case I would prefer to see a united Ireland.

I would also like to see far more powers devolved to the English regions and away from Westminster.
		
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Why doesn't it alter the position of voters in England? As previously stated, the SNP could support a minority Labour govt. What would be the trade off in that? We know some of the SNP policy promises from their manifesto, and no doubt some of them would be on the table.

And there are constituencies in England that don't have a candidate from some parties, i.e. they don't appear on the ballot paper.

You believe they are an irrelevance in England. I disagree - someone might be a floating voter, considering Labour but decide against it because of the prospect of SNP influence. Ergo they are relevant.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Which part of the labour policy doesn't bear up? I've given you two policy claims that the Tories have made that are patently untrue. Name one Labour one?
		
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The taking away the married allowance? "95% of people won't pay more tax, on the top 5%." = a Labour lie. If someone loses the married allowance they will pay more tax.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why doesn't it alter the position of voters in England? As previously stated, the SNP could support a minority Labour govt. What would be the trade off in that? We know some of the SNP policy promises from their manifesto, and no doubt some of them would be on the table.

And there are constituencies in England that don't have a candidate from some parties, i.e. they don't appear on the ballot paper.

You believe they are an irrelevance in England. I disagree - someone might be a floating voter, considering Labour but decide against it because of the prospect of SNP influence. Ergo they are relevant.
		
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Personally I prefer to vote based upon issues and policies rather than potential outcomes. 

On that basis the SNP are irrelevant to me but I accept that others my vote on a different basis.


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the rest of the UK were to wish the union to remain intact then it is vitally important that the Conservatives and Labour parties in Scotland are able to counter what the SNP say - so what the SNP say then matters for the Conservatives and Labour parties in Scotland.  But whatever these parties might say is currently undermined in the view of many Scots by their take on the Westminster parties; their policies and the voting intentions of the rUK.

Plus some areas of policy are not devolved to Holyrood.  And so if Westminster parties policy is divergent from that of the SNP, then that again is grist for the mill for the SNP (Brexit being the obvious example); and of course the funding of many services in Scotland is determined through the Barnett formula upon the spending on the equivalent services determined by Westminster.  Not that any of the above seems to matter one iota to Labour and Conservative Westminster parties - maybe they should give it a bit more consideration if they wish the union to remain intact.  If not that bothered - then bash on!
		
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So a Scottish voter of a 5mill pop can influence the UK government and the place of Scotland in the UK. However any other resident (62milll) cannot influence Scotland's government (other than indirectly) and neither can they influence a decision on the unity of the UK. If the Scottish want the rUK to be concerned then IMO we should have a vote if not then why is there a relevance?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Which part of the labour policy doesn't bear up? I've given you two policy claims that the Tories have made that are patently untrue. Name one Labour one?
		
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So the manifesto was fully costed in advance,  as claimed  and the independent bodies that looked at it were wrong. 

To make election pledges that you know to be impossible to fulfill is as bad as lying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So the manifesto was fully costed in advance,  as claimed  and the independent bodies that looked at it were wrong.

To make election pledges that you know to be impossible to fulfill is as bad as lying.
		
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I believe they have lied in some areas, but they will also quote the 130 economists who have supported it and say it can be done.
Independent bodies have been used by both sides to prove or disprove the opposition.


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			So a Scottish voter of a 5mill pop can influence the UK government and the place of Scotland in the UK. However any other resident (62milll) cannot influence Scotland's government (other than indirectly) and neither can they influence a decision on the unity of the UK. If the Scottish want the rUK to be concerned then IMO we should have a vote if not then why is there a relevance?
		
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just shows times have changes, pleanty of instances where scotland got a Gov it didn't vote for, despite not having a single Tory MP on occasion they still were foisted with a Conservative Gov, one that used it a  a testing ground for Unpopular bills such as the Poll Tax .


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe they have lied in some areas, but they will also quote the 130 economists who have supported it and say it can be done.
Independent bodies have been used by both sides to prove or disprove the opposition.
		
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I accept what you say but struggle  to see how the additions that are being attached (WASPI, rail fares etc.) can have been costed within it.

All my adult life I have heard politicians promising whatever they thought they needed to say to secure my vote and, without exception, they have failed to deliver on those promises.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I accept what you say but struggle  to see how the additions that are being attached (WASPI, rail fares etc.) can have been costed within it.

All my adult life I have heard politicians promising whatever they thought they needed to say to secure my vote and, without exception, they have failed to deliver on those promises.
		
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That’s a different point though, the manifesto they claimed was fully costed, the add ons afterwards were not in the manifesto and they’ve said they will borrow to cover those areas.
I wouldn’t expect any party to have a manifesto that covers every eventuality.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			just shows times have changes, pleanty of instances where scotland got a Gov it didn't vote for, despite not having a single Tory MP on occasion they still were foisted with a Conservative Gov, one that used it a  a testing ground for Unpopular bills such as the Poll Tax .
		
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Ah! The old two wrongs make a right argument. 

The reverse of your quoted scenario has also been true with Labour being in power nationally on the back of Scottish votes and England having a Government it did not vote for. 

More reason for independence for Scotland and others together with devolution for English regions.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s a different point though, the manifesto they claimed was fully costed, the add ons afterwards were not in the manifesto and they’ve said they will borrow to cover those areas.
I wouldn’t expect any party to have a manifesto that covers every eventuality.
		
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OK if you are happy to accept the basis of costing the manifesto. 

Personally I tend to agree with those that maintain the assumptions being made for the economy and, thus, tax take are unrealistic.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

Laura Pillock just been on the radio saying the 4 day week isn't a Labour policy merely an aspirat ion, a soundboard they got out there ,now seems it's backtracking. Suspect they'll be a lot of this. Wonder if they correct this i n the wider nationa l coverage.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I accept what you say but struggle  to see how the additions that are being attached (WASPI, rail fares etc.) can have been costed within it.

All my adult life I have heard politicians promising whatever they thought they needed to say to secure my vote and, without exception, they have failed to deliver on those promises.
		
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Because something is costed doesn't make it affordable


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s a different point though, the manifesto they claimed was fully costed the add ons afterwards were not in the manifesto and they’ve said they will borrow to cover those areas.
I wouldn’t expect any party to have a manifesto that covers every eventuality.
		
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Its sounds like you're just making excuses for them. In fact, you are making excuses for them.

The Labour manifesto is the biggest spending/borrowing spree ever, and at a time when all economies are shrinking. Its madness. And Labour are adding to it... incredulous, and more so that people are just getting sucked in by it like starry eyed kids.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Laura Pillock just been on the radio saying the 4 day week isn't a Labour policy merely an aspirat ion, a soundboard they got out there ,now seems it's backtracking. Suspect they'll be a lot of this. Wonder if they correct this i n the wider nationa l coverage.
		
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Its a lie then.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Laura Pillock just been on the radio saying the 4 day week isn't a Labour policy merely an aspirat ion, a soundboard they got out there ,now seems it's backtracking. Suspect they'll be a lot of this. Wonder if they correct this i n the wider nationa l coverage.
		
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The 4 day week is not in the manifesto, it was a proposal backed at the Labour party conference.
Not all proposals passed at Party conferences become policies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its sounds like you're just making excuses for them. In fact, you are making excuses for them.

The Labour manifesto is the biggest spending/borrowing spree ever, and at a time when all economies are shrinking. Its madness. And Labour are adding to it... incredulous, and more so that people are just getting sucked in by it like starry eyed kids.
		
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No I’m not, go to the post before were I said there are lies.
I’m simply making the distinction between what was in the manifesto and what wasn’t! And at no time did I say they were right to borrow the money.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The 4 day week is not in the manifesto, it was a proposal backed at the Labour party conference.
Not all proposals passed at Party conferences become policies.
		
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https://labourlist.org/2019/09/four-day-working-week-becomes-labour-policy/


so what's the difference between a policy and aspiration ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://labourlist.org/2019/09/four-day-working-week-becomes-labour-policy/


so what's the difference between a policy and aspiration ?
		
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It’s not in the manifesto for the next parliamentary 5 years, it could stay like that forever and never come in to law, if the aspiration becomes Law, fine, until then it’s simply that, an aspiration.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not in the manifesto for the next parliamentary 5 years, it could stay like that forever and never come in to law, if the aspiration becomes Law, fine, until then it’s simply that, an aspiration.
		
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So this could also include the waspi and train fare announcements ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So this could also include the waspi and train fare announcements ?
		
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No, as they’ve claimed were the funding has come from for that and will be done if they win the GE.


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So this could also include the waspi and train fare announcements ?
		
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why not just look on some right wing/ tory website or Twitter account, that would most likley give you the answer you want to see anyway?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, as they’ve claimed were the funding has come from for that and will be done if they win the GE.
		
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Ive not seen where they say how they will fund these tbh.


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Ah! The old two wrongs make a right argument.

The reverse of your quoted scenario has also been true with Labour being in power nationally on the back of Scottish votes and England having a Government it did not vote for.

More reason for independence for Scotland and others together with devolution for English regions.
		
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when was that then?

 when TB came in in 97 he had a massive maj so scotland 50 ish MP certainly didn't


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why not just look on some right wing/ tory website or Twitter account, that would most likley give you the answer you want to see anyway?
		
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Oh yes, the truth would be better


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			when was that then?

when TB came in in 97 he had a massive maj so scotland 50 ish MP certainly didn't
		
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Most of them were in the same party  😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Ive not seen where they say how they will fund these tbh.
		
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Waspi - Corbyn has said he will borrow more.
Train fares is to come out from the roads budget.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why not just look on some right wing/ tory website or Twitter account, that would most likley give you the answer you want to see anyway?
		
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It’s no problem trying to answer a question, I much prefer someone asking a question than someone posting some pointless one line quip trying to look clever.


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s no problem trying to answer a question, I much prefer someone asking a question than someone posting some pointless one line quip trying to look clever.

Click to expand...

I just thought it was amusing considering some of the links he's posting was complaining about the truth


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

So trump denies anything to do with the NHS on Sky Interview. Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			So trump denies anything to do with the NHS on Sky Interview. Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!
		
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Obviously has short term memory loss then.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199697103263600642


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I just thought it was amusing considering some of the links he's posting was complaining about the truth

Click to expand...

I have no idea who you mean.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			So trump denies anything to do with the NHS on Sky Interview. Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!
		
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Is it a fake document?


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Ive not seen where they say how they will fund these tbh.
		
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I've seen Corbyn, twice, talk about funding the WASPI compensation. On one occasion it was going to be paid from "the contingency fund every govt has." In the second interview he said it would be funded from borrowing. In both cases he may well have been speaking truthfully. The initial thought might have been from a contingency fund(money tree?) and then a decision was made to do it from borrowing. Its an "honourable thing to do," as Corbyn said. And I don't have a problem with it being in the mix.

And I agree with reducing rail fares. And I agree with addressing the issue of stolen pension funds. And there is so much more I agree with in the Labour manifesto. But for me, it comes down to what the country can afford. I want a socialist govt but not at any price.

When a country goes into recession and businesses fail, its not the rich people who suffer - they can cope with only 19 bottles of Moet instead of 20. The levels of borrowing to fund Labour's spending programme is just crazy, and dangerous. And it will be the poor who suffer.

"Only aspirations.." oh please. Its soft vote buying. People see them as what a party wants to do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I've seen Corbyn, twice, talk about funding the WASPI compensation. On one occasion it was going to be paid from "the contingency fund every govt has." In the second interview he said it would be funded from borrowing. In both cases he may well have been speaking truthfully. The initial thought might have been from a contingency fund(money tree?) and then a decision was made to do it from borrowing. Its an "honourable thing to do," as Corbyn said. And I don't have a problem with it being in the mix.

And I agree with reducing rail fares. And I agree with addressing the issue of stolen pension funds. And there is so much more I agree with in the Labour manifesto. But for me, it comes down to what the country can afford. I want a socialist govt but not at any price.

When a country goes into recession and businesses fail, its not the rich people who suffer - they can cope with only 19 bottles of Moet instead of 20. *The levels of borrowing to fund Labour's spending programme is just crazy, and dangerous. And it will be the poor who suffer.*

"Only aspirations.." oh please. Its soft vote buying. People see them as what a party wants to do.
		
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Could be far worse under a tory No Deal Brexit, or does Project Fear only go one way?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-50628644


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it a fake document?
		
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Looks like it was a very public interview. If anyone thinks the NHS is being privatised under Boris or anyone else I think they are mad. Reforms and efficiency is are one thing but not being free at the point of entry is never going to happen. Using private hospitals on an ad hoc basis to help the NHS run smoothly is a good thing. My girlfriend was sent by Royal Berks to the Spire in Reading for a shoulder operation and it was absolutely fantastic. The NHS helped clear the long waiting lists and she had a good OP in stte of the art hospital. I am all for logic like this. If a private clinic wants to specialise in something and it is more efficient for the NHS to make use of it while maintaining the control that is all good. If the NHS has all the resources they need in an area- all good. If the patient wins all good. But this is not privatisation- it is making the best use of resources at any given time


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## JamesR (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			So trump denies anything to do with the NHS on Sky Interview. *Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies* and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!
		
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Crikey Paul, those Russians must be playing us from the greatest spy story of all time; they've got Red Jezza on one side, and  by the Kremlin's funded Boris on the other...they've got us all ends up! 
The cold war is heating up, comrade


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Crikey Paul, those Russians must be playing us from the greatest spy story of all time; they've got Red Jezza on one side, and  by the Kremlin's funded Boris on the other...they've got us all ends up! 
The cold war is heating up, comrade

Click to expand...

I know - talk of backing both horses!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2019)

NHS four day week stuff is all a load of Tory fake nonsense …..many NHS staff already work three day [12 hour shifts] weeks.
Special info that may surprise some Tory voters.... the NHS does not only work Mon-Fri 9am to 5pm.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Looks like it was a very public interview. If anyone thinks the NHS is being privatised under Boris or anyone else I think they are mad. Reforms and efficiency is are one thing but not being free at the point of entry is never going to happen. Using private hospitals on an ad hoc basis to help the NHS run smoothly is a good thing. My girlfriend was sent by Royal Berks to the Spire in Reading for a shoulder operation and it was absolutely fantastic. The NHS helped clear the long waiting lists and she had a good OP in stte of the art hospital. I am all for logic like this. If a private clinic wants to specialise in something and it is more efficient for the NHS to make use of it while maintaining the control that is all good. If the NHS has all the resources they need in an area- all good. If the patient wins all good. But this is not privatisation- it is making the best use of resources at any given time
		
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Your post I replied to implied (jokingly I assume  ) that the Ruskies wrote the document Corbyn waved.  Joking aside - you imply that the document is not a government document and is fake?  Is it real or is it fake?  Actually I know the answer to that - it's real.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your post I replied to implied (jokingly I assume  ) that the Ruskies wrote the document Corbyn waved.  Joking aside - you imply that the document is not a government document and is fake?  Is it real or is it fake?  Actually I know the answer to that - it's real.
		
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I was not doubting its authenticity - just if it had anything remotely incriminating to back up the totally unjustified propaganda (in my view) that the the NHS is for sale.


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## pendodave (Dec 3, 2019)

Before we start cooing about private provision taking over the nhs, lets think about how it went when the private sector got into care homes, probation services and other slightly complicated things...

They make profit by providing terrible service, reducing staff and taking an axe to t&cs (that's you and me, if you work for them), smoke and mirrors financial jiggery pokery and tax avoidance to ice the cake. Happy in the knowledge that, having bled tax payers (that's you and me) dry they leave the mess to be cleared up (by taxpayers). 

Those 'profits' that come from 'efficiencies'. One way or another it all comes from us and goes to them with no tax paid on the way through. 

It's distressing that anyone thinks that this it's a good thing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			I was not doubting its authenticity - just if it had anything remotely incriminating to back up the totally unjustified propaganda (in my view) that the the NHS is for sale.
		
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Farage on the TV debate stated it’s not up for sale either! Another one suffering memory loss.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201830654331232257


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

If we’re going to slag her off in the wrong thread, the least we can do is put the tweet in it’s whole context.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201221601431343104


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 3, 2019)

Labour are having a pop at Amazon / Asda and others over employees pay. How can this be a problem if we have the protection of the EU employment laws? This EU thing is no more effective than having our own.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your post I replied to implied (jokingly I assume  ) that the Ruskies wrote the document Corbyn waved.  Joking aside - you imply that the document is not a government document and is fake?  Is it real or is it fake?  Actually I know the answer to that - it's real.
		
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I assumed that he was referring to the suggestion that the documents has been leaked using "Russian" methods similar to those employed by Secondary Infektion rather than that the documents were fake...........

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-online-by-group-similar-to-russian-operation


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If we’re going to slag her off in the wrong thread, the least we can do is put the tweet in it’s whole context.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201221601431343104

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Well the likes of her and JC are not going to keep us safe. 
Let anybody in, in uncontrolled numbers is one policy: and another is "not necessarily " making those sentenced for terrorist offences serve the full term.


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## chrisd (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			just if it had anything remotely incriminating to back up the totally unjustified propaganda (in my view) that the the NHS is for sale.
		
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Trump has today confirmed that he is not interested in buying any part of the NHS even if it were handed to the US on a silver platter


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Trump has today confirmed that he is not interested in buying any part of the NHS even if it were handed to the US on a silver platter
		
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Just wants us to purchase pharmaceuticals at eye watering prices, from US companies, from what I've read...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			I was not doubting its authenticity - just if it had anything remotely incriminating to back up the totally unjustified propaganda (in my view) that the the NHS is for sale.
		
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Well I'm afraid that isn't clear from what you posted - or perhaps just a little ambiguous.

_Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!_

Anyway - the document is real and it sets out trade negotiation possibilities - one of which could be having to buy US drugs at a higher cost to the NHS than cost today of the equivalent drug.


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## chrisd (Dec 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Just wants us to purchase pharmaceuticals at eye watering prices, from US companies, from what I've read...
		
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I'm sure that the US drug suppliers would love that but it's been stated categorically that we will not buy drugs that are dearer than where we buy from now.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure that the US drug suppliers would love that but it's been stated categorically that we will not buy drugs that are dearer than where we buy from now.
		
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Oki dokey 👍... I will have to stop reading The Times 😉...


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## chrisd (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I'm afraid that isn't clear from what you posted - or perhaps just a little ambiguous.

_Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!_

Anyway - the document is real and it sets out trade negotiation possibilities - one of which could be having to buy US drugs at a higher cost to the NHS than cost today of the equivalent drug.
		
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The document IS  real but it is the scope document from meetings back in Mrs May premiership where negotiators record what is said at the meetings (minutes). The US are bound to ask about the possibility of supplying drugs as part of a trade deal but Labour are trying to spin the document to be the foundation of a deal which Boris has been party to which us simply not the case


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## chrisd (Dec 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Oki dokey 👍... I will have to stop reading The Times 😉...
		
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Read what you like Steve, just dont always believe what it says 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Trump has today confirmed that he is not interested in buying any part of the NHS even if it were handed to the US on a silver platter
		
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really...that doesn't sound much like 'America First'.   But since Matt Hancock seems to believe Trump on this who am I to sceptically scoff...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The document IS  real but it is the scope document from meetings back in Mrs May premiership where negotiators record what is said at the meetings (minutes). The US are bound to ask about the possibility of supplying drugs as part of a trade deal but Labour are trying to spin the document to be the foundation of a deal which Boris has been party to which us simply not the case
		
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That may well be the case.  Though I suspect that it will be the foundations for something.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may well be the case.  Though I suspect that it will be the foundations for something.
		
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The idea of a scoping out doc is to save the real negotiators wasting loads of time going through a load of meetings.

The piece in it about extending drugs patents sparked with me. Currently, there will be specific drugs that are only produced by one manufacturer - the new Cystic Fibrosis drugs spring to mind. Once the patent has expired, any manufacturer will be able to produce them, and usually cheaper.

Extending the patent with the NHS is basically hiding the fact they want the US Pharma company to be preferred supplier at the original price for a certain period of time. Its not unusual for a company to ask for a preferred supplier status like this on the back of offering something in return, e.g. another drug for something completely different at a knock down price. It can be a win-win for both sides but it does taking some managing.

Bear in mind NHS Procurement, and various Trusts independently, have preferred supplier status with hundreds of suppliers already. Its a bit of a non-story in terms market access but politically, spun well, it is gravy to Labour.


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The idea of a scoping out doc is to save the real negotiators wasting loads of time going through a load of meetings.

The piece in it about extending drugs patents sparked with me. Currently, there will be specific drugs that are only produced by one manufacturer - the new Cystic Fibrosis drugs spring to mind. Once the patent has expired, any manufacturer will be able to produce them, and usually cheaper.

Extending the patent with the NHS is basically hiding the fact they want the US Pharma company to be preferred supplier at the original price for a certain period of time. Its not unusual for a company to ask for a preferred supplier status like this on the back of offering something in return, e.g. another drug for something completely different at a knock down price. It can be a win-win for both sides but it does taking some managing.

Bear in mind NHS Procurement, and various Trusts independently, have preferred supplier status with hundreds of suppliers already. Its a bit of a non-story in terms market access but politically, spun well, it is gravy to Labour.
		
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But no amount of repudiation or truth will satisfy those who want to maintain the 'NHS for Sale' myth; one day someone will realise the NHS  is not a single entity that could have *a* over parcelled up price.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			But no amount of repudiation or truth will satisfy those who want to maintain the 'NHS for Sale' myth; one day someone will realise the NHS  is not a single entity that could have *a* over parcelled up price.
		
Click to expand...

And likewise when Johnson assures us that *the *NHS will never be for sale, then I can 100% believe him.  Even if a consortium could afford to buy all of the NHS, I doubt that any would want to.  Rather they'd be very amenable I am sure to cherry-picking certain services.  And that is the risk as I see it.  More and more services are sold off and those that remain become very costly to fund - and a two-tier system develops to bring in private/individual medical insurance funding to keep the services affordable and free for the majority.

The key worry that my wife has at the moment on this subject is over her cancer drug.  There are a few different cancer drugs ostensibly doing the same thing.  But for some women specific brands work better for them than others - indeed studies suggest that for some women certain brands provide slightly improved statistical protection against a recurrence.  Mrs Hogie has tried a few brands and some make her feel terrible, tired and sore.  One slightly more expensive brand doesn't.  She is very worried that that choice will go - and she will be forced to take one of the brands that make her feel terrible.  And I mean really terrible.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well the likes of her and JC are not going to keep us safe.
Let anybody in, in uncontrolled numbers is one policy: and another is "not necessarily " making those sentenced for terrorist offences serve the full term.
		
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If you actually looked at the problem and saw what is actually happening you wouldn’t be jumping and having knee jerk reactions.

80% of UK terrorists over the past decade have been home grown.

https://amp.ft.com/content/c39a01b8-6c04-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/homegrown-terrorism-prevent-strategy/

Immigration being the issue is simply smoke and mirrors.

As for the “lock em up and throw away the key” soundbites that’s all they are soundbites.
No party is going to introduce a terrorist bill that changes the punishment for all terrorist offences to life imprisonment without no chance of release, no party and that’s a fact.
We don’t have the facilities, resources, manpower etc to make such changes and why people believe we would is beyond me.

I’ve had mates blown up, mates killed, been involved in bombings and shootings and no one would like it any more than me to see terrorists shot on sight or imprisoned for life, but it’s not the world we live in and not the reality some will accept.

Were’s been all these cries for throwing away the key and stopping immigration for the last 10 yrs been while the tories have had control and been cutting the police and probstion services, the fact is it’s a knee jerk reaction to last weeks awful events that some are using to gain politically.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			But no amount of repudiation or truth will satisfy those who want to maintain the 'NHS for Sale' myth; one day someone will realise the NHS  is not a single entity that could have *a* over parcelled up price.
		
Click to expand...

Then why can’t the tories do what Sturgeon suggests and take the NHS off the table with legislation.


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## patricks148 (Dec 3, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			So trump denies anything to do with the NHS on Sky Interview. Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!
		
Click to expand...

Trump denies it??? and when did what he says become 100%  truthful


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

None of the NHS, some of the NHS, all of the NHS.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ump-us-drugs-price-increase-a9230661.html?amp


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Trump denies it??? and what he says is always 100% then truthful

Click to expand...

He’s also stated he’s never met Prince Andrew either, that’ll be apart from the times in the past when he’s played Golf with him


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And likewise when Johnson assures us that *the *NHS will never be for sale, then I can 100% believe him.  Even if a consortium could afford to buy all of the NHS, I doubt that any would want to.  Rather they'd be very amenable I am sure to cherry-picking certain services.  And that is the risk as I see it.  More and more services are sold off and those that remain become very costly to fund - and a two-tier system develops to bring in private/individual medical insurance funding to keep the services affordable and free for the majority.

The key worry that my wife has at the moment on this subject is over her cancer drug.  There are a few different cancer drugs ostensibly doing the same thing.  But for some women specific brands work better for them than others - indeed studies suggest that for some women certain brands provide slightly improved statistical protection against a recurrence.  Mrs Hogie has tried a few brands and some make her feel terrible, tired and sore.  One slightly more expensive brand doesn't.  She is very worried that that choice will go - and she will be forced to take one of the brands that make her feel terrible.  And I mean really terrible.
		
Click to expand...

We've been there before Hugh. Most ancillary services were long since sold off. And many clinical services are outsourced to help reduce demand. Outsourced at a price that suits a private company.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We've been there before Hugh. Most ancillary services were long since sold off. And many clinical services are outsourced to help reduce demand. Outsourced at a price that suits a private company.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe - and I’m well aware of some services currently delivered by such as virgin health (my cousin is a prothsetist and I was surprised that prosthetics provision of prosthetics is outsourced to her company from trusts) - but it is the drugs situation that really worries her hugely.  It would be a disaster for her if a new ‘regime’ took away the - albeit limited - choice that currently exists and she has to go with a brand that causes her real problems.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

So it’s not just the terrorists back on the streets! the tory party the party of law and order! my ar5e.

'Scandal brewing' as thousands of suspects released https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50563533


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe - and I’m well aware of some services currently delivered by such as virgin health (my cousin is a prothsetist and I was surprised that prosthetics provision of prosthetics is outsourced to her company from trusts) - but it is the drugs situation that really worries her hugely.  It would be a disaster for her if a new ‘regime’ took away the - albeit it limited - choice that currently exists and she has to go with a brand that causes her real problems.
		
Click to expand...

Just a thought, the doc is responsible for prescribing. Surely it should be theor choice? After all, if there’s a clinical incident it’s them that can take the rap.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So it’s not just the terrorists back on the streets! the tory party the party of law and order! my ar5e.

'Scandal brewing' as thousands of suspects released https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50563533

Click to expand...

Maybe you missed the distinction within the article but the people released hadn’t been convicted of anything.

The whole thing needs a more considered approach. Do we want a govt to create laws that put people in prison without charge?

Lets not jump to conclusions or have knee jerk reactions. Let the experts get to the bottom of it all first.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you missed the distinction within the article but the people released hadn’t been convicted of anything.

The whole thing needs a more considered approach. Do we want a govt to create laws that put people in prison without charge?

Lets not jump to conclusions or have knee jerk reactions. Let the experts get to the bottom of it all first.
		
Click to expand...

I’m sure the family of Kay Richardson will take solace in that review.


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## chrisd (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We've been there before Hugh. Most ancillary services were long since sold off. And many clinical services are outsourced to help reduce demand. Outsourced at a price that suits a private company.
		
Click to expand...

Weren't the Labour Party first to outsource NHS  stuff to private supply?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought, the doc is responsible for prescribing. Surely it should be theor choice? After all, if there’s a clinical incident it’s them that can take the rap.
		
Click to expand...

Doctors prescribe the medication not the brand, wife has same issue with some of her medication, Companies make the medication under license but may differ in the casings etc.
We have to get 2 medications on paper scripts and shop around, certain pharmacies are tied to certain wholesalers, the independents have a bit more flexibility.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Jeez the politburo are in a fine state of excitement today. Everything Tory is rubbish 🙄
Theres a huge difference between letting out early some people who have committed crimes other than terrorism.  Terrorists are mass killers, that's what their modus operandi is and given the chance these fanatics will murder again as we have just witnessed.  Lock the bastards up on a remote island and parachute in supplies, they can murder each other.  Absolutely no remorse for people who won't be changed and will recruit others to kill those who have fostered them and their parents.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m sure the family of Kay Richardson will take solace in that review.
		
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Thats a cheap shot Paul, and quite distasteful.

I thought using someone's death for political gains was being decried from the roof tops... obviously not.


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## Mudball (Dec 3, 2019)

I dont claim to be sartorially gifted... But what on God's earth is Melania wearing?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I dont claim to be sartorially gifted... But what on God's earth is Melania wearing?






Click to expand...

A Milkshakeproof  cloak.


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## Imurg (Dec 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I dont claim to be sartorially gifted... But what on God's earth is Melania wearing?






Click to expand...

She's auditioning for a new Marvel Superhero part.....


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## Fade and Die (Dec 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Weren't the Labour Party first to outsource NHS  stuff to private supply?
		
Click to expand...

Guy on the radio pointed out that almost all parts of the NHS that have been sold off in one form or another happened under a Labour government. The Tories have no track record of doing this, which surprised me tbh.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Guy on the radio pointed out that almost all parts of the NHS that have been sold off in one form or another happened under a Labour government. The Tories have no track record of doing this, which surprised me tbh.
		
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Not sure that's strictly accurate but not far off. The vast majority of sell offs I experienced were during Blair's govts.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure that's strictly accurate but not far off. The vast majority of sell offs I experienced were during Blair's govts.
		
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I know you had experience of supplying the NHS but what exactly are things that have been sold off. I guess PFI is a form but the NHS cant supply everything to its self.  I know medical services are supplied by companies like Spire and Virgin but arnt these non profit making outfits.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I know you had experience of supplying the NHS but what exactly are things that have been sold off. I guess PFI is a form but the NHS cant supply everything to its self.  I know medical services are supplied by companies like Spire and Virgin but arnt these non profit making outfits.
		
Click to expand...

Its easier to say what hasn't been sold off. Depending on the Trust involved, you might find that the only thing left in NHS 'ownership' is doctors and nurses. A number of Trust have also retained the IT staff and clinical admin because of the sensitivity of patient data.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its easier to say what hasn't been sold off. Depending on the Trust involved, you might find that the only thing left in NHS 'ownership' is doctors and nurses. A number of Trust have also retained the IT staff and clinical admin because of the sensitivity of patient data.
		
Click to expand...

So does the NHS hire things like beds, operating theaters, patent monitoring equipment, ambulances etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Thats a cheap shot Paul, and quite distasteful.

I thought using someone's death for political gains was being decried from the roof tops... obviously not.
		
Click to expand...

You accused me of having a knee jerk reaction when if you’d read the link you’d of noticed Kay Richardson was Sunderland and knowing you know were I live my I’m quite aware of the case and the fight her family have put up since her murder.
So no, it’s not a knee jerk reaction it’s the horror on the figure being released that this poor family are not the only ones who have suffered under the continuous cuts to the criminal justice system.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You accused me of having a knee jerk reaction when if you’d read the link you’d of noticed Kay Richardson was Sunderland and knowing you know were I live my I’m quite aware of the case and the fight her family have put up since her murder.
So no, it’s not a knee jerk reaction it’s the horror on the figure being released that this poor family are not the only ones who have suffered under the continuous cuts to the criminal justice system.
		
Click to expand...

Thats ok then because its already being used(sarcasm). Its still double standards Paul and I stand by the cheap shot comment. I didn't say you were having a knee jerk reaction - how could you be involved in the review, so how could you jump to a conclusion?

At the very least you could have explained your point better, rather than have a one line dig.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Thats ok then because its already being used(sarcasm). Its still double standards Paul and I stand by the cheap shot comment. I didn't say you were having a knee jerk reaction - how could you be involved in the review, so how could you jump to a conclusion?

At the very least you could have explained your point better, rather than have a one line dig.
		
Click to expand...

What’s the point, I’ve been accused of making excuses and having knee jerk reactions lately, maybe I could be asked to explain my point better in the first place, because some of the posts were I have explained my point have been ignored.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Jeez the politburo are in a fine state of excitement today. Everything Tory is rubbish 🙄
Theres a huge difference between letting out early some people who have committed crimes other than terrorism.  Terrorists are mass killers, that's what their modus operandi is and given the chance these fanatics will murder again as we have just witnessed.  Lock the bastards up on a remote island and parachute in supplies, they can murder each other.  Absolutely no remorse for people who won't be changed and will recruit others to kill those who have fostered them and their parents.
		
Click to expand...

And once again you rant on your soapbox knowing full well what you’re saying will never happen.
Was the BNP Manifesto not extreme enough for you? Or are struggling for tory good news today?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

Fan s rep on the board :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201973147681079298


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And once again you rant on your soapbox knowing full well what you’re saying will never happen.
Was the BNP Manifesto not extreme enough for you? Or are struggling for tory good news today?
		
Click to expand...

Who's talking to you, stop being so precious thinking anything posted about Labour is a personal slight.  You keep saying you dont have any time for the Labour leadership then jump in feet first throwing the insults around if anyone critises them.  Seems to me you protesteth too much about the Torys, are they worrying you 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 3, 2019)

Both of you can it please,


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Fan s rep on the board :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201973147681079298

Click to expand...

Fully costed 😂


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So does the NHS hire things like beds, operating theaters, patent monitoring equipment, ambulances etc.
		
Click to expand...

Yes to hiring beds but only certain types. Bear in mind a pneumatic bed that helps alleviate bed sores runs into many thousands per bed but might only be needed for that condition occasionally. Cheaper to hire them in.

Operating theatres; you could add any facility, e.g. a lab or even a general ward. Yes they can be delivered as a modular build that interconnects with other builds... think hamster cage with all sorts of bits tagged on. Were quite popular 10-15 years back but the recession knocked the market on that one. Always been more popular on the continent.

Medical eqpt; most types of equipment can be hired, and there's also creative ways to do the hiring. A popular version is a hospital puts out an equipment requirement. A finance company buys the equipment, then leases it to the hospital. This will often include maintenance and sometimes even replacement at end of life. No need for a big CAPEX budget but it will take a chunk out of OPEX.

Ambulances; don't know.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If you actually looked at the problem and saw what is actually happening you wouldn’t be jumping and having knee jerk reactions.

80% of UK terrorists over the past decade have been home grown.

https://amp.ft.com/content/c39a01b8-6c04-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/homegrown-terrorism-prevent-strategy/

Immigration being the issue is simply smoke and mirrors.

As for the “lock em up and throw away the key” soundbites that’s all they are soundbites.
No party is going to introduce a terrorist bill that changes the punishment for all terrorist offences to life imprisonment without no chance of release, no party and that’s a fact.
We don’t have the facilities, resources, manpower etc to make such changes and why people believe we would is beyond me.

I’ve had mates blown up, mates killed, been involved in bombings and shootings and no one would like it any more than me to see terrorists shot on sight or imprisoned for life, but it’s not the world we live in and not the reality some will accept.

Were’s been all these cries for throwing away the key and stopping immigration for the last 10 yrs been while the tories have had control and been cutting the police and probstion services, the fact is it’s a knee jerk reaction to last weeks awful events that some are using to gain politically.
		
Click to expand...

Reading your last sentence, what makes you think that what I have said is a knee jerk reaction? I have been of this opinion for years, that we are allowing the  innocent public to be risked because of namby pamby sentencing of criminals.  It's not their fault, the liberals say, they are good if you give them the chance. Don't lock them up, there must be another way. It's a risk the public should accept. Excuse after excuse ad nauseum.
And are you really advocating the uncontrolled, unlimited immigration into this small Country whose resources have been stretched for years. 
This country has been full up for many a year, we cannot keep the population rising the way it has been . Policies over years to get votes
which encourage high birth rates , etc. 
Doctors and hospitals overstretched year on year, schools the same.
One reason - Too many people.
So,  no , not a knee jerk reaction . I am not a young man. I have seen this country slide from a promising egalitarian era just after the war, when it could have been made into a good place to live, and when fairness and respect for society was instilled into us .
There were opportunities for us young people to make a home etc, which we did, if we wanted to, but now, the young are stymied . They are forced to live on a precipice of debt, to the point where they begin to think it is the proper way to be. They are not enough of them educated properly, in knowledge nor consideration for society . It's becoming every man for himself. What it has now become is dismaying
so, you can be assured that my views are not "a knee jerk reaction"


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Just wants us to purchase pharmaceuticals at eye watering prices, from US companies, from what I've read...
		
Click to expand...

on what twisted and utterly illogical outcome do you think that would happen. The prices US citizens pay for drugs are eye wattering - we are far ahead in this and it will not change


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## PNWokingham (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I'm afraid that isn't clear from what you posted - or perhaps just a little ambiguous.

_Time for Red Jezza to go back to the Ruskies and ask for clarity on the leaked 500 pages of nothing!!_

Anyway - the document is real and it sets out trade negotiation possibilities - one of which could be having to buy US drugs at a higher cost to the NHS than cost today of the equivalent drug.
		
Click to expand...

don't be so utterly niaive as to think we will start paying more for drugs - any extra competition will omnly force prices down


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Reading your last sentence, what makes you think that what I have said is a knee jerk reaction? I have been of this opinion for years, that we are allowing the  innocent public to be risked because of namby pamby sentencing of criminals.  It's not their fault, the liberals say, they are good if you give them the chance. Don't lock them up, there must be another way. It's a risk the public should accept. Excuse after excuse ad nauseum.
And are you really advocating the uncontrolled, unlimited immigration into this small Country whose resources have been stretched for years.
This country has been full up for many a year, we cannot keep the population rising the way it has been . Policies over years to get votes
which encourage high birth rates , etc.
Doctors and hospitals overstretched year on year, schools the same.
One reason - Too many people.
So,  no , not a knee jerk reaction . I am not a young man. I have seen this country slide from a promising egalitarian era just after the war, when it could have been made into a good place to live, and when fairness and respect for society was instilled into us .
There were opportunities for us young people to make a home etc, which we did, if we wanted to, but now, the young are stymied . They are forced to live on a precipice of debt, to the point where they begin to think it is the proper way to be. They are not enough of them educated properly, in knowledge nor consideration for society . It's becoming every man for himself. What it has now become is dismaying
so, you can be assured that my views are not "a knee jerk reaction"
		
Click to expand...

Well put.  Many people dont understand the trade off between high population levels and quality of life. As the population increases there is bound to be stress put on the services we have built up over time that cannot be multiplied at the same rate as the population increases by many millions over a short timeframe, population rises and quality of life overall has to reduce.

People coming into the country and those subsequently being born to them don't bring hospitals, doctors surgeries, roads, public transport, power stations and houses with them, they have to be consumers of what is already here as its impossible to replicate the services our tax has supplied over many, many years.  

There will no doubt be cries of this post being racist and that kind of accusation and thinking is the blind cause of why things get progressively worse.  We always had a level of immigration and it was at levels that could be absorbed such that it never put these essential services under undue strain. The damage has now been done and cant be undone, all we can hope is that the trend can be slowed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Reading your last sentence, what makes you think that what I have said is a knee jerk reaction? I have been of this opinion for years, that we are allowing the  innocent public to be risked because of namby pamby sentencing of criminals.  It's not their fault, the liberals say, they are good if you give them the chance. Don't lock them up, there must be another way. It's a risk the public should accept. Excuse after excuse ad nauseum.
And are you really advocating the uncontrolled, unlimited immigration into this small Country whose resources have been stretched for years.
This country has been full up for many a year, we cannot keep the population rising the way it has been . Policies over years to get votes
which encourage high birth rates , etc.
Doctors and hospitals overstretched year on year, schools the same.
One reason - Too many people.
So,  no , not a knee jerk reaction . I am not a young man. I have seen this country slide from a promising egalitarian era just after the war, when it could have been made into a good place to live, and when fairness and respect for society was instilled into us .
There were opportunities for us young people to make a home etc, which we did, if we wanted to, but now, the young are stymied . They are forced to live on a precipice of debt, to the point where they begin to think it is the proper way to be. They are not enough of them educated properly, in knowledge nor consideration for society . It's becoming every man for himself. What it has now become is dismaying
so, you can be assured that my views are not "a knee jerk reaction"
		
Click to expand...

You’ve moved the goalposts, your initial post which I answered was in response to keeping us safe and terrorists coming from abroad, the knee jerk I spoke off is people believing these terrorists are all immigrants and the link I posted was to show the majority are actually homegrown.
We’ve had immigration controls over the last 10yrs of tory rule and it’s made no difference.
My last sentence was generic about the political knee jerk soundbites, again I’ll ask, why didn’t the tory party bring in these tough sentences and improve our borders over the last 10yrs when they’ve had a majority?
Instead we’ve seen cut upon cut to the Armed Forces, Police, Justice System, Probation Service etc and suffered terrorist attacks, all while claiming to be the party of law and order.
So instead of once again attacking Labour’s plans, we should be asking the tory party why they have failed us.

As for immigration, you may wish to read the Labour Manifesto because no where do they suggest uncontrolled, unlimited immigration in to this Country! They’ve promised to keep the EU freedom of movement and why not? It’s been proved time and tine again EU citizens contribute more to the Country in revenue than we pay them in benefits.

Edit: Just a bit more info.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2019)

Can someone pop downstairs and check that Hell has really frozen over.
https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/fishing-industry-boss-backs-snp-at-general-election/


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## Grant85 (Dec 4, 2019)

Personal feeling with a week to go...

Obviously a lot of polls are predicting a reasonable Tory majority... possibly the biggest they've had since '87.

Problem for them is thus;
They are relying on a realignment somewhat of their core vote and they need to pick up votes and seats from Labour in the midlands and the North as well as try to limit the damage in the South and Scotland.

On the day, they are probably relying on a lot of people to cast their vote for the Conservatives for the 1st time ever. And / or cast their vote for the Conservatives despite being completely unaligned with them on the main issue of the day, Brexit.

Personally feel there is a lot that could go wrong with this on the day and a lot of people can't bring themselves to do it and vote another way, or stay at home. Especially if they feel the Conservatives are going to win anyway and their vote doesn't really matter.

I also think tactical voting can and will work against them as there are enough Labour + Lib Dem + Greens who might well decide to vote tactically on the day and could freeze them out of 8 to 12 key marginals. This could make it very tough for the Conservatives to win a majority, even if they have a decent overall lead of 6% or 7%. I also think we will see the SNP do very well in Scotland where a lot of people accept they have to lend them their vote to lock the Tories out, but would never consider themselves SNP or pro-independence, and will probably never admit to having voted the way they did.

And of course we come to the polls from 2 years ago, when they almost all massively over estimated the Conservative lead. Wisdom now is that they underweighted the younger and poorer voters who turned out on the day to get Labour up to above 40%. Have they made that mistake again?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 4, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			on what twisted and utterly illogical outcome do you think that would happen. The prices US citizens pay for drugs are eye wattering - we are far ahead in this and it will not change
		
Click to expand...

My post/thoughts were prompted by recent items I'd read in The Times... Can't see them knowingly print anti tory 'stuff'... Believe team USA will feel they'll have the upper hand in negotiations as we will be perceived as attending in full begging bowl mode... Basically they'll be shouting jump and our expected response will be HOW HIGH?!!

And, experience of American business folk is that their 'normal' operating mode is full on arrogant...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			My post/thoughts were prompted by recent items I'd read in The Times... Can't see them knowingly print anti tory 'stuff'... Believe team USA will feel they'll have the upper hand in negotiations as we will be perceived as attending in full begging bowl mode... Basically they'll be shouting jump and our expected response will be HOW HIGH?!!
		
Click to expand...

Dominic Raab confirmed yesterday US Drug Companies could increase drug prices under any trade deal after Brexit.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You’ve moved the goalposts, your initial post which I answered was in response to keeping us safe and terrorists coming from abroad, the knee jerk I spoke off is people believing these terrorists are all immigrants and the link I posted was to show the majority are actually homegrown.
We’ve had immigration controls over the last 10yrs of tory rule and it’s made no difference.
My last sentence was generic about the political knee jerk soundbites, again I’ll ask, why didn’t the tory party bring in these tough sentences and improve our borders over the last 10yrs when they’ve had a majority?
Instead we’ve seen cut upon cut to the Armed Forces, Police, Justice System, Probation Service etc and suffered terrorist attacks, all while claiming to be the party of law and order.
So instead of once again attacking Labour’s plans, we should be asking the tory party why they have failed us.

As for immigration, you may wish to read the Labour Manifesto because no where do they suggest uncontrolled, unlimited immigration in to this Country! They’ve promised to keep the EU freedom of movement and why not? It’s been proved time and tine again EU citizens contribute more to the Country in revenue than we pay them in benefits.

Edit: Just a bit more info.
View attachment 28680

Click to expand...

Maybe the Tories slashed the Border Force because they thought they weren't needed so much with freedom of movement allowed.  They are now in the process of putting them back in place because we can now truely have CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS (hopefully) after Dec 12th. I would say that ALL immigration should be stopped with immediate effect. We cannot possibly sustain the population with our current infrastructure. We need 20 years of sorting this out before we can allow any more people in. Jesus the roads in my little town are full with cars from 7am to 7pm. The hospital car park is full 24/7! The leisure centre is almost impossible to get into. Tesco's are making a fortune with 3 outlets in the town with the main one rammed 8am to 8pm.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Maybe the Tories slashed the Border Force because they thought they weren't needed so much with freedom of movement allowed.  They are now in the process of putting them back in place because we can now truely have CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS (hopefully) after Dec 12th. I would say that ALL immigration should be stopped with immediate effect. We cannot possibly sustain the population with our current infrastructure. We need 20 years of sorting this out before we can allow any more people in. Jesus the roads in my little town are full with cars from 7am to 7pm. The hospital car park is full 24/7! The leisure centre is almost impossible to get into. Tesco's are making a fortune with 3 outlets in the town with the main one rammed 8am to 8pm.
		
Click to expand...

How does any of that solve the problem with homegrown terrorism?


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## patricks148 (Dec 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Maybe the Tories slashed the Border Force because they thought they weren't needed so much with freedom of movement allowed.  They are now in the process of putting them back in place because we can now truely have CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS (hopefully) after Dec 12th. I would say that ALL immigration should be stopped with immediate effect. We cannot possibly sustain the population with our current infrastructure. We need 20 years of sorting this out before we can allow any more people in. Jesus the roads in my little town are full with cars from 7am to 7pm. The hospital car park is full 24/7! The leisure centre is almost impossible to get into. Tesco's are making a fortune with 3 outlets in the town with the main one rammed 8am to 8pm.
		
Click to expand...

but in that time the border force was cut the UK has had more imigration from outside the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2019)

Looking at the South of Scotland Tory belt I cannot see many Tories surviving.
My constituency had a less than useless one term Tory MP who is not defending. 
It was a former Tory stronghold now split three ways with Labour/SNP.
I had to search around in the local press for the name of the new Tory candidate, 8 days before an election 
Local SNP candidate looks strong. He is a retired ex Met Det Inspector. 
SNP have sent out loads of stuff, absolutely nothing from Labour or Tories. Only posters/banners I see around are for the SNP.
D&G looks like a close thing with the new Scottish Secretary enjoying a lot of publicity in a strong farming area.
Brexit still the No1 issue, closer here than in the less rural areas.


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## Hobbit (Dec 4, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but in that time the border force was cut the UK has had more imigration from outside the UK.
		
Click to expand...

 By heck lad, good thing it wasn't immigration from inside the UK...


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## patricks148 (Dec 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			By heck lad, good thing it wasn't immigration from inside the UK...

Click to expand...

well spotted now corrected


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

Too much immigration from anywhere is bad , saying there has been more from outside the EU doesn't make any difference. It all needs cutting back wherever it comes from, Conservatives and Labour are guilty for letting it get to unsustainable numbers.


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## Mudball (Dec 4, 2019)

For those who love Corbyn and those who hate him.  Very interesting thread about the media contradictions of JeCo 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201581431371247616


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## HughJars (Dec 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The taking away the married allowance? "95% of people won't pay more tax, on the top 5%." = a Labour lie. If someone loses the married allowance they will pay more tax.
		
Click to expand...

That's one, cheers for the catch.


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## HughJars (Dec 4, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I also think we will see the SNP do very well in Scotland where a lot of people accept they have to lend them their vote to lock the Tories out, but would never consider themselves SNP or pro-independence, and will probably never admit to having voted the way they did.
		
Click to expand...

I've been canvassing for the first time in my life, such is my determination to oust Andrew Bowie who has been a useless MP.  Despite this being a long time Lib-Dem seat (boundary changes have altered it somewhat), West Aberdeenshire & kincardine is a massive 2 horse race, I've literally not hit upon a single Labour or Green, and a tiny handful of Lib-Dems. There's a clear tactical vote going on, those that don't want Brexit going SNP, those that don't want independence going Tory, and little left in the middle.


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## patricks148 (Dec 4, 2019)

Owen sums things up pretty well.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/02/tory-lies-democracy-labour-danger?fbclid=IwAR1u5Ds8rqax3cBSfpcIq3bFAFsbk9itaNzwJmn-qqmLrwSZ5DcQaZ-G2t8


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## Grant85 (Dec 4, 2019)

HughJars said:



			I've been canvassing for the first time in my life, such is my determination to oust Andrew Bowie who has been a useless MP.  Despite this being a long time Lib-Dem seat (boundary changes have altered it somewhat), West Aberdeenshire & kincardine is a massive 2 horse race, I've literally not hit upon a single Labour or Green, and a tiny handful of Lib-Dems. There's a clear tactical vote going on, those that don't want Brexit going SNP, those that don't want independence going Tory, and little left in the middle.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - agree, I've seen anecdotal instances on social media that I'm certain were No voters in 2014 and would never publicly admit to voting SNP, saying about 'this is a tough decision' and 'never thought I'd vote this way' etc. Not sure if this would be picked up in national polling or if it will move very late. 

Arguably the SNP could have played to this section more and toned down the indyref2 chat and possibly made it easier for people to support them solely on an EU ticket, but they've stuck to their guns and ultimately have a stronger mandate if they do win 40+ seats. 

Thing I've been talking up to folk in work (who aren't SNP) is that this is realistically the ONLY chance we now have to stop Brexit. Ultimately we have to ensure the Tories don't get a majority, and ideally miss it by at least dozen or so. If the Tories have a majority, it's all over and Boris can and will do what he wants. So if you want to stop Brexit you have to vote for the candidate best placed to beat the Conservative in that seat. In all 13 Tory held Scottish seats, that is the SNP. In most English seats, it's Labour with a few dozen Lib Dem seats and a handful of Green / independents. 

Also Hugh, in your case, Andrew Bowie has a very healthy majority (very very healthy for Scotland) and it would def take a lot of 2017 Tories to stay at home or vote SNP in order for him to lose. One thing is sure, if the SNP do gain that seat, it's been a very bad night for the Conservatives in Scotland.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 4, 2019)

Waiting for the McDonald speech today where he'll outline where we'll all be 6.5k better off


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## HughJars (Dec 4, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Arguably the SNP could have played to this section more and toned down the indyref2 chat and possibly made it easier for people to support them solely on an EU ticket, but they've stuck to their guns and ultimately have a stronger mandate if they do win 40+ seats.
		
Click to expand...

From their research, it seems toning down the IndyRef message in 2017 was why there was such a large stay at home SNP vote, it didn't go elsewhere, it just didn't turn out, it seems they've learned that lesson



Grant85 said:



			Also Hugh, in your case, Andrew Bowie has a very healthy majority (very very healthy for Scotland) and it would def take a lot of 2017 Tories to stay at home or vote SNP in order for him to lose. One thing is sure, if the SNP do gain that seat, it's been a very bad night for the Conservatives in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Aye Bowie has a huge majority, but it's close, and WAK is the most canvassed constituency in Scotland, we're trying bloody hard! You'll note all Bowie has are himself and a couple of helpers daily, and they're only leafleting too. 

He's also lying like a proper Tory, stories coming from Aboyne that he's telling the oldies that the SNP are keeping money from the NHS to fund undyref2. He's shameless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then why can’t the tories do what Sturgeon suggests and take the NHS off the table with legislation.
		
Click to expand...

...and just to be a little flippant for a moment - if privatisation is such a good thing for parts of the NHS, then why take privatisation of the NHS off the table...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought, the doc is responsible for prescribing. Surely it should be theor choice? After all, if there’s a clinical incident it’s them that can take the rap.
		
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My understanding is that the doctor prescribes the drug - in her case that is Letrozole - and that drug comes in a number of brands.  Of those she has tried all but the Femara brand cause her real issues.  But she has to find a pharmacist that stocks that brand.  She knows it is slightly more expensive - and that might mean it is withdrawn under another regime - but she fears that it could also be withdrawn if - say - a US drug company manufactures Letrozole and that becomes the only brand that she can get through the NHS.  Femara is manufactured by Novartis - a Swiss company...

I hesitate to speculate but I will - there may be a trade deal on Femara with Novartis through an overall Swiss-EU trade agreement on drugs.


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## Hobbit (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Too much immigration from anywhere is bad , saying there has been more from outside the EU doesn't make any difference. It all needs cutting back wherever it comes from, Conservatives and Labour are guilty for letting get to unsustainable numbers.
		
Click to expand...

A major issue with any discussion about immigration is it seems to invariably become toxic, and labels like "racist" and "insular" get thrown around. Without resorting to anecdotal evidence, just what are the issues that immigration cause?

Typically, we hear about the strains on services. The difficulties in getting doctor's appointments and the waiting lists in hospitals. Overcrowding in schools, and so it goes on.

But where is the definitive evidence that proves that immigration is out of control?

The employment figures show that unemployment is at its lowest level in over 40 years, and has been achieved on the back of net immigration hitting around +300k. And if employment is up, so to is the tax take, including indirect taxes like VAT. And because of that, it might be argued that the tax take hasn't been spent wisely. Why wasn't it been spent on hospitals and schools?

If you also look at the age demographic and the number of single immigrants that come to the UK to work, you will see that they, in the main, all working and adding more to the tax take than is taken in benefits.

I'm almost playing a Devil's Advocate role here. In the run up to the 2016 referendum, and all the furore surrounding immigration, I dug deep into the facts surrounding immigration and the (supposed) issues it is reputed to cause. There are issues around immigration but I'd argue they are, in the main, of various government's making.

For those decrying immigration, go and get the facts and the figures. And not just the bald numbers. Use your intellect to apply those facts and numbers to what should and could have been done.

Anecdotally, I've lived and worked around Europe for many years, specifically with the various health services and health boards. The lack of staff and facilities is to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the country,  mirrored throughout Europe. And now here in Spain, as immigrants, we read of wards closed and specialities moved to different hospitals, but to a large extent we can still see a GP within a couple of days and get a hospital appointment within a few weeks.

Just maybe immigration is being used as an excuse for damned poor management by successive governments... just a thought.


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## USER1999 (Dec 4, 2019)

One of the issues I face, daily, is traffic. I am not blaming it on imigrants per se, but migrants certainly. 10 years ago, I could drive home from work in less than 30 minutes. Now it can take 30 minutes to drive the 1/2 mile to Staples corner. 

There are just way more cars. Way more homes, way more people. I can't travel to work by public transport, it would take around 3 hours each way to do 15 miles.

I used to cycle a bit, but that is flat out dangerous now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			One of the issues I face, daily, is traffic. I am not blaming it on imigrants per se, but migrants certainly. 10 years ago, I could drive home from work in less than 30 minutes. Now it can take 30 minutes to drive the 1/2 mile to Staples corner.

There are just way more cars. Way more homes, way more people. I can't travel to work by public transport, it would take around 3 hours each way to do 15 miles.

I used to cycle a bit, but that is flat out dangerous now.
		
Click to expand...

Is some of that down to successive governments not doing enough to move trade and industry away from the South East?
Unfortunately in every Country in the world people are attracted to the big Cities.
An ideal opportunity for me would of been to build or expand another airport in the Midlands or North and take away some of the strain.
Lots of people from around the UK have also migrated south for employment reasons.
There’s no doubt lots of areas around the UK has seen differing impacts of immigration and migration.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Waiting for the McDonald speech today where he'll outline where we'll all be 6.5k better off
		
Click to expand...

Someones done the work for me :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202183745169690624


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A major issue with any discussion about immigration is it seems to invariably become toxic, and labels like "racist" and "insular" get thrown around. Without resorting to anecdotal evidence, just what are the issues that immigration cause?

Typically, we hear about the strains on services. The difficulties in getting doctor's appointments and the waiting lists in hospitals. Overcrowding in schools, and so it goes on.

But where is the definitive evidence that proves that immigration is out of control?

The employment figures show that unemployment is at its lowest level in over 40 years, and has been achieved on the back of net immigration hitting around +300k. And if employment is up, so to is the tax take, including indirect taxes like VAT. And because of that, it might be argued that the tax take hasn't been spent wisely. Why wasn't it been spent on hospitals and schools?

If you also look at the age demographic and the number of single immigrants that come to the UK to work, you will see that they, in the main, all working and adding more to the tax take than is taken in benefits.

I'm almost playing a Devil's Advocate role here. In the run up to the 2016 referendum, and all the furore surrounding immigration, I dug deep into the facts surrounding immigration and the (supposed) issues it is reputed to cause. There are issues around immigration but I'd argue they are, in the main, of various government's making.

For those decrying immigration, go and get the facts and the figures. And not just the bald numbers. Use your intellect to apply those facts and numbers to what should and could have been done.

Anecdotally, I've lived and worked around Europe for many years, specifically with the various health services and health boards. The lack of staff and facilities is to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the country,  mirrored throughout Europe. And now here in Spain, as immigrants, we read of wards closed and specialities moved to different hospitals, but to a large extent we can still see a GP within a couple of days and get a hospital appointment within a few weeks.

Just maybe immigration is being used as an excuse for damned poor management by successive governments... just a thought.
		
Click to expand...

Like you I have studied the information available and considered the physical changes we have experienced over the last couple of decades.  There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that our stretched services and infrastructure is the result of population increases.   I also find it hard to believe the case where immigrants are paying in substantial more in tax than they take out, there are reports suggesting that at the best they are cost neutral.  If we are receiving all this extra money then why are we not awash with tax revenue.
As I said previously the problem is our services have been built up over many years from tax revenues and when we have such an explosion in the population we have experienced then the money is not available to extend these services to cope.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2019)

Thinking about it, if BJ gets his majority then he can do as he pleases to the country for 5 years ... what he does in those 5 years will go down in history and they will be remembered and the aspersions cast, perhaps even repeated on forums 40 years afterwards. 

So he has one chance to make Brexit a success, failure to do so will be lumped on the Tories and their inability to negotiate, strategise or budget. 

With that in mind he might want to throw the election  
So we will be heading for a hung parliment and more phaffing and back biting, the electorate has to make up it's mind and accept no one is bringing utopia with their manifesto


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## Grant85 (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is some of that down to successive governments not doing enough to move trade and industry away from the South East?
Unfortunately in every Country in the world people are attracted to the big Cities.
An ideal opportunity for me would of been to build or expand another airport in the Midlands or North and take away some of the strain.
Lots of people from around the UK have also migrated south for employment reasons.
There’s no doubt lots of areas around the UK has seen differing impacts of immigration and migration.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The problem is not immigration (we NEED immigration to help with economic growth and the demographics meaning a shortage of working age people) its the way the economy is balanced within the UK, or not balanced. 

The problem is that not enough, or anything, is done to encourage the population to spread away from London / SE. There is still a huge drain pulling talent from within Britain to London, never mind immigrants.  

Billions are spent on transport in London, Crossrail, potential Heathrow expansion, Hs2 etc. Absolute madness by a London centric government which is actively harming other parts of their own country. 

Instead this resource could be spent on improving roads and infrastructure to regions in Midlands, North, Wales, Scotland etc. As well as tax breaks for businesses who locate / hire people in that area. It would take years of course to realign, but if all you did was stop kids from Yorkshire and Lancashire moving to London, within 10 years there would be a huge difference. 

I guess Governments look at the tax take and effectively treat London as a cash cow to milk as much as they can, rather than do anything to try and get a bit more tax out of other cities and regions by actually investing in those areas.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 4, 2019)

made me chuckle - Labour has not got a snowballs chance in hell of passing a soft brext even if voted for - it is a miracle Boris got a deal through.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 4, 2019)

...and some commedy gold from the brexit-cancelling anti-democratic party!


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## HughJars (Dec 4, 2019)

Amazing how right on cue this is. Here's our "faithful" hero out and about in my neighborhood, on his own, delivering leaflets, while just up the road the SNP candidate is out canvassing with a large team.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is some of that down to successive governments not doing enough to move trade and industry away from the South East?
Unfortunately in every Country in the world people are attracted to the big Cities.
An ideal opportunity for me would of been to build or expand another airport in the Midlands or North and take away some of the strain.
Lots of people from around the UK have also migrated south for employment reasons.
There’s no doubt lots of areas around the UK has seen differing impacts of immigration and migration.
		
Click to expand...

Living in the shadow of a major airport hub isn't that great for employment unless you feel minimum wage zero hours is the way forward...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Living in the shadow of a major airport hub isn't that great for employment unless you feel minimum wage zero hours is the way forward...
		
Click to expand...

It’s gateway though, I understand slightly were you’re coming from as I lived in Uxbridge/Hounslow for a few years and saw the issue for locals, the locals are swamped with “outsiders” of all nationalities coming through and looking for work, homes etc.
As pointed out, the SE is getting larger and larger through the commuter belt.


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## 4LEX (Dec 4, 2019)

Diane Abbot......the gift that keeps on giving


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## chrisd (Dec 4, 2019)

4LEX said:



			Diane Abbot......the gift that keeps on giving 

Click to expand...

Is that what Jeremy Corbyn said??


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2019)

Careful re your comments re our Diane.

Just read she has said everyone in the UK will be getting free Broadbeans by 2020


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

tories pledging £4 Billion for public transport that was not mentioned in their manifesto!
Best clear the thread for the outrage and jokes to be displayed by their supporters.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			tories pledging £4 Billion for public transport that was not mentioned in their manifesto!
Best clear the thread for the outrage and jokes to be displayed by their supporters.
		
Click to expand...

Is that not just being poured into the bottomless pit that seems to be Crossrail?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that not just being poured into the bottomless pit that seems to be Crossrail?
		
Click to expand...

Don’t know mate, it’s all about giving local leaders “more control” the announcement said!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t know mate, it’s all about giving local leaders “more control” the announcement said!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have added a smillie, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek. Original estimate for Crossrail was £14.8bn, currently up to £18.25bn and as it will not by done now until 2021 there are chances for it to go higher still. That is a huge amount being swallowed by one project and for the benefit of one city. It goes back to your earlier post about so much of the country being London centric. 

Divide that £4bn between the regions and that may get us an extra 1 mile passing point on the A1, a few more pacer trains being replaced. Woo hoo, that has made my mind up


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Absolutely. The problem is not immigration (we NEED immigration to help with economic growth and the demographics meaning a shortage of working age people) its the way the economy is balanced within the UK, or not balanced.

The problem is that not enough, or anything, is done to encourage the population to spread away from London / SE. There is still a huge drain pulling talent from within Britain to London, never mind immigrants.

Billions are spent on transport in London, Crossrail, potential Heathrow expansion, Hs2 etc. Absolute madness by a London centric government which is actively harming other parts of their own country.

Instead this resource could be spent on improving roads and infrastructure to regions in Midlands, North, Wales, Scotland etc. As well as tax breaks for businesses who locate / hire people in that area. It would take years of course to realign, but if all you did was stop kids from Yorkshire and Lancashire moving to London, within 10 years there would be a huge difference.

I guess Governments look at the tax take and effectively treat London as a cash cow to milk as much as they can, rather than do anything to try and get a bit more tax out of other cities and regions by actually investing in those areas.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, increased population needs increasing public services that cannot be provided to serve the demand so we end up with over demand and a quality of life that is being sucked downward by ever diminishing returns.  The argument that we need more young immigrants to provide for the elderly is also wrong. They are also responsible for much of the increase in childbirth and as such will be using state support, also they will grow old thus creating even more demand for additional services and even more immigrants to support them.  When will our population be too big, 70/80/90/100 million or using your argument can we move people around and never have too many.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot have concerns over population growth and the effects it will have on future generations, especially when we are trying to reduce the effects of pollution and global warming.
Footnote:  I have not made any personal attacks on anyone in this post


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree, increased population needs increasing public services that cannot be provided to serve the demand so we end up with over demand and a quality of life that is being sucked downward by ever diminishing returns.  The argument that we need more young immigrants to provide for the elderly is also wrong. They are also responsible for much of the increase in childbirth and as such will be using state support, also they will grow old thus creating even more demand for additional services and even more immigrants to support them.  When will our population be too big, 70/80/90/100 million or using your argument can we move people around and never have too many.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot have concerns over population growth and the effects it will have on future generations, especially when we are trying to reduce the effects of pollution and global warming.
Footnote:  I have not made any personal attacks on anyone in this post
		
Click to expand...

Just have a 2 kid limit then .. but they would not meet the tax burden of the older generation.. I’ll leave it there


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

Immigration is another subject that polarises opinions when it shouldn’t and is an area I agree should be discussed without fear.
Only last night it was claimed Labour wanted no limits and open borders, which was shown to be untrue.
All those that vote leave or tory are racist and that is just as much untrue.

Once again successive governments have allowed the numbers to rise almost without a plan, no infrastructure in place, no control of were immigrants go to live, there are industries and areas that need immigration, but again no control.

It needs a grown up debate and to suggest closing the borders etc to all is just daft.

We also need politicians to stop blaming each other as an excuse rather than taking responsibility for their or their parties part in the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just have a 2 kid limit then .. but they would not meet the tax burden of the older generation.. I’ll leave it there
		
Click to expand...

Well, not if we have to take in an exponential number of immigrants year on year to support the ones before.  Like I asked, how big would we like our population to be? 70/80/90/100 million?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that not just being poured into the bottomless pit that seems to be Crossrail?
		
Click to expand...

God dam Tony Blair!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, not if we have to take in an exponential number of immigrants year on year to support the ones before.  Like I asked, how big would we like our population to be? 70/80/90/100 million?
		
Click to expand...

If we have to take them on to do work the English cannot be bothered to do .. then should we not kick out the people who add nothing but just take


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			don't be so utterly niaive as to think we will start paying more for drugs - any extra competition will omnly force prices down
		
Click to expand...

...in the same way that competition in the privatised railways and utilities has forced prices down...?  Well maybe.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			God dam Tony Blair!
		
Click to expand...

Frankly anyone who let it run away as a money pit.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If we have to take them on to do work the English cannot be bothered to do .. then should we not kick out the people who add nothing but just take
		
Click to expand...

Might be a problem kicking them out but don't encourage them.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Might be a problem kicking them out but don't encourage them.
		
Click to expand...

Remove the internet, turn the tv off during the day ... really don’t know why anything is open between 7am and 5pm ... total waste of time. Close the job centre down. Send a transit round to press gang them into picking veg and fruit .. 

But on a serious note some stuff needs to be addressed and it won’t be pleasant.


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## 4LEX (Dec 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Careful re your comments re our Diane.

Just read she has said everyone in the UK will be getting free Broadbeans by 2020
		
Click to expand...

Wonder if her scumbag of a son will be getting free legal aid for attacking the Police?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2019)

Whoa whoa whoa, link required. Surely not the son of a well educated front bencher.


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## Wolf (Dec 4, 2019)

Just got the latest batch of leaflets through the door 4 in total.

The 1 from the Tory candidate is horrendous and littered with spelling mistakes but doesn’t say much except for the full page spread on what Labour are failing to do and spin about Labour lies.

The Labour leaflet which is just slating the Tory party and not discussing their agenda for local community or Uk government. The only thing is states is that our constituency is being failed because we don’t have a general hopsital, motorway or higher education establishment. All of which are lies as we have Lincoln general hospital, Lincoln college and lincoln university (which is a big Uni) & a bloody great motorway nearby. 

We got another from an independant candidate which has nothing in it about what she is standing for but tells me she has an MBE and her name.

The last one we got today was for Lib Dems, a 19year Old lad that details everything about what he will do for our community, states his top pledges to improve services and other important local issues, where he will look to seek more input from communities, about our environment, local NHS, education and employment levels...

Literally the young lad is the only one as far as the leaflets go that we get daily who actually talks about policy and not slagging others off.

Our area is certainly not spoilt for choice 🙄


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2019)

4LEX said:



			Wonder if her scumbag of a son will be getting free legal aid for attacking the Police? 

Click to expand...

Just had a quick read, he was privately educated 🤔😳 no comp education there. Bailed til Feb in which time his mum could be Home Secretary. He could call her as a character witness. God I hope Labour get in power now. 😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## MegaSteve (Dec 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s gateway though, I understand slightly were you’re coming from as I lived in Uxbridge/Hounslow for a few years and saw the issue for locals, the locals are swamped with “outsiders” of all nationalities coming through and looking for work, homes etc.
As pointed out, the SE is getting larger and larger through the commuter belt.
		
Click to expand...

The issue has not been "outsiders" coming in but business and industry being squeezed out...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 4, 2019)

4LEX said:



			Wonder if her scumbag of a son will be getting free legal aid for attacking the Police? 

Click to expand...

This is just the sort of thing that made me decide yesterday to keep away from commenting on this thread.

However,  I am afraid that I cannot let it pass.

I may  not agree with Diane Abbott on most things but I find it reprehensible to drag her son's alleged behaviour into this discussion.

As far as I am aware he is not a  candidate in the election.


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## Dando (Dec 4, 2019)

Loving Jo Swindle of the fib dems taking absolute bollox on bbc


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## MegaSteve (Dec 4, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			God dam Tony Blair!
		
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Boris was Mayor of London, for two terms, and did bugger all of bugger all to ensure the runaway costs of delivering Crossrail were kept in check...


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## chrisd (Dec 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Loving Jo Swindle of the fib dems taking absolute bollox on bbc
		
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I got a little fed up with Andrew Neil coming up with more and more convoluted hypothetical questions to ask her, but she's dead in the water next week


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I got a little fed up with Andrew Neil coming up with more and more convoluted hypothetical questions to ask her, but she's dead in the water next week
		
Click to expand...

No risk of Johnson struggling so - he’ll just float on in there next week and then we discover who we have in charge...

The silver lining is that it looks like forage ltd might not have too much representation in Westminster


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			This is just the sort of thing that made me decide yesterday to keep away from commenting on this thread.

However,  I am afraid that I cannot let it pass.

I may  not agree with Diane Abbott on most things but I find it reprehensible to drag her son's alleged behaviour into this discussion.

As far as I am aware he is not a  candidate in the election.
		
Click to expand...

Forget for one minute who his parents are, if you read the charges. Scumbag is rather tame.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 4, 2019)

the gifts kee p coming


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202334421002674176


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			the gifts kee p coming


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202334421002674176

Click to expand...

Am selling up if he gets in power


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## spongebob59 (Dec 4, 2019)

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/...avings-under-their-policies-are-not-credible/


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2019)

Cheeky.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-leaves-brexit-bus/ar-BBXL2xl?ocid=spartandhp


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Am selling up if he gets in power
		
Click to expand...

Where would you move to...…...Europe


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## IainP (Dec 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Where would you move to...…...Europe

Click to expand...

Dunno about you, I already live in Europe 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Am selling up if he gets in power
		
Click to expand...

Tash, did you read the article or just react to the misleading headline, you need to remember Osborne is the editor of that rag.


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## IainP (Dec 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A major issue with any discussion about immigration is it seems to invariably become toxic, and labels like "racist" and "insular" get thrown around. Without resorting to anecdotal evidence, just what are the issues that immigration cause?

Typically, we hear about the strains on services. The difficulties in getting doctor's appointments and the waiting lists in hospitals. Overcrowding in schools, and so it goes on.

But where is the definitive evidence that proves that immigration is out of control?

The employment figures show that unemployment is at its lowest level in over 40 years, and has been achieved on the back of net immigration hitting around +300k. And if employment is up, so to is the tax take, including indirect taxes like VAT. And because of that, it might be argued that the tax take hasn't been spent wisely. Why wasn't it been spent on hospitals and schools?

If you also look at the age demographic and the number of single immigrants that come to the UK to work, you will see that they, in the main, all working and adding more to the tax take than is taken in benefits.

I'm almost playing a Devil's Advocate role here. In the run up to the 2016 referendum, and all the furore surrounding immigration, I dug deep into the facts surrounding immigration and the (supposed) issues it is reputed to cause. There are issues around immigration but I'd argue they are, in the main, of various government's making.

For those decrying immigration, go and get the facts and the figures. And not just the bald numbers. Use your intellect to apply those facts and numbers to what should and could have been done.

Anecdotally, I've lived and worked around Europe for many years, specifically with the various health services and health boards. The lack of staff and facilities is to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the country,  mirrored throughout Europe. And now here in Spain, as immigrants, we read of wards closed and specialities moved to different hospitals, but to a large extent we can still see a GP within a couple of days and get a hospital appointment within a few weeks.

Just maybe immigration is being used as an excuse for damned poor management by successive governments... just a thought.
		
Click to expand...

I try to be pretty neutral on the subject, but do have some exposure. I think it differs across regions/areas also. I was in east Midlands in late 90s, early 00s (so not SE). I knew several people in the education sector. Some simple measures were class sizes, and numbers of children where English was not their first language. There were significant increases in a short space of time. I recall the government of the day under pressure as there was no clue on people movements (not really much better today), the local wrag did their own estimates and came up with more increases to the city alone than the government estimate for the whole UK.
On maybe a lighter note, patrols had to be added to the river banks as fish were being caught and cooked on the spot in large numbers (pleasure anglers not happy). Plus some reverse stereo-typing, the local landlords would hope for a Polish family as they'd leave the property better than when they moved in!
Anyway the migration was noticeable and tangible. There were positives and negatives. I was not surprised to see how the ref votes went in that area.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Forget for one minute who his parents are, if you read the charges. Scumbag is rather tame.
		
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So what!

I repeat, he is not standing as a candidate and, therefore, whilst his alleged behaviour may be reprehensible it remains irrelevant to any discussion around the election.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 4, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Whoa whoa whoa, link required. Surely not the son of a well educated front bencher.
		
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 a principled front bencher who wants to appropriate the very public shcools that she sent her son to!


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## spongebob59 (Dec 4, 2019)

A fair assessment :

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/election-2019/2019/12/leader-britain-deserves-better


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## Wolf (Dec 4, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I got a little fed up with Andrew Neil coming up with more and more convoluted hypothetical questions to ask her, but she's dead in the water next week
		
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Same here Chris, considering the poor questioning he was using and his ridiculous hypothetical scenarios she did ok as she could only answer what he was putting at her. This interview serves further as to why boris not doing one with him is a good move for him and the Tory bid to retain their government. It’s become more bout AN making statements than about factually questioning the candidates.


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Same here Chris, considering the poor questioning he was using and his ridiculous hypothetical scenarios she did ok as she could only answer what he was putting at her. This interview serves further as to why boris not doing one with him is a good move for him and the Tory bid to retain their government. It’s become more bout AN making statements than about factually questioning the candidates.
		
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I agree, there's only one reason why everyone is clamouring for him to do it is to even up the party leaders in the "looking stupid" competition and hopefully Boris will win the competition by looking least stupid by not going on his show given how much he has to lose by doing so. Although I detest Swinson I thought she handled AN much better this time


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Tash, did you read the article or just react to the misleading headline, you need to remember Osborne is the editor of that rag.
		
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It's half said in jest Paul, must put more smileys on some of me 🤔😁👍 That odious little man ( Osborne) came to our pit/ Thoresby. He went underground with the strictest of instructions to our gaffers that he was not to speak to any of the men. The men didn't get to speak to him. The gaffers did and apparantly told him in no uncertain terms what they thought. When he was leaving the pit he was presented with a miners lamp. Grrrrrrrrr.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree, there's only one reason why everyone is clamouring for him to do it *is to even up the party leaders in the "looking stupid" competition* and hopefully Boris will win the competition by looking least stupid by not going on his show given how much he has to lose by doing so. Although I detest Swinson I thought she handled AN much better this time
		
Click to expand...

Not really, you've said that Swinson handled him relatively well, hence in addition to the actual policy answers, that will (or at least should) inform people to some extent of the type of leader she may be in pressure situations. It would be nice to see how Boris copes and by using the same interviewer with the same approach there is a base level to compare them.  The fact that some people do not like his approach is neither here nor there to me as long as he is consistent. Twitter is ablaze with left wing conspiracy theories over how chummy he is with Boris and his right wing leanings, so of any of them you'd think Boris the avoider would be the one wanting to do it most.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So what!

I repeat, he is not standing as a candidate and, therefore, whilst his alleged behaviour may be reprehensible it remains irrelevant to any discussion around the election.
		
Click to expand...

So the fact a Labour front bencher, who is against public schools, sends her son to one. That in Mansfield is called Hypocrisy. I didn't know that til I read the piece. What I say and what I do springs to mind.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49798861


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So the fact a Labour front bencher, who is against public schools, sends her son to one. That in Mansfield is called Hypocrisy. I didn't know that til I read the piece. What I say and what I do springs to mind.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49798861

Click to expand...

The difference is Tash, her son is now 28 and she’s no longer responsible for him.
boris has refused many times to discuss how many children he’s fathered(and I agree with him on this) but should we have a go as we need to know if his comments from 1995 about single mothers are fair?
Let’s be honest, any other Labour politician having this happen in their family it wouldn’t of made the headlines.
Families should be kept out of it unless the politician brings them in.


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The difference is Tash, her son is now 28 and she’s no longer responsible for him.
boris has refused many times to discuss how many children he’s fathered(and I agree with him on this) but should we have a go as we need to know if his comments from 1995 about single mothers are fair?
Let’s be honest, any other Labour politician having this happen in their family it wouldn’t of made the headlines.
Families should be kept out of it unless the politician brings them in.
		
Click to expand...

Paul, are you really saying that an MP and possible Home Secretary should only have the actions of her family bought to light if SHE herself chooses to? Also, that she supports a policy of abolishing public schooling having used it to educate her own family


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, are you really saying that an MP and possible Home Secretary should only have the actions of her family bought to light if SHE herself chooses to? Also, that she supports a policy of abolishing public schooling having used it to educate her own family
		
Click to expand...

Rip him to bits by all means, but bringing the fact she sent him to Public School is irrelevant.
Surely as a parent there becomes a point when the kid is responsible for their own actions.

Are you saying boris should be forced to say how many kids he’s fathered when he’s had a go at single mothers?

Maybe we should also remember he hasn’t been found guilty yet, if when he appears in Court and if he his found Guilty then absolutely lay in to him and her, until then I stand by the fact families should be kept out of politics unless they are used by the politician in a political situation.


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## Grant85 (Dec 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree, increased population needs increasing public services that cannot be provided to serve the demand so we end up with over demand and a quality of life that is being sucked downward by ever diminishing returns.  The argument that we need more young immigrants to provide for the elderly is also wrong. They are also responsible for much of the increase in childbirth and as such will be using state support, also they will grow old thus creating even more demand for additional services and even more immigrants to support them.  When will our population be too big, 70/80/90/100 million or using your argument can we move people around and never have too many.  I fail to understand how anyone cannot have concerns over population growth and the effects it will have on future generations, especially when we are trying to reduce the effects of pollution and global warming.
Footnote:  I have not made any personal attacks on anyone in this post
		
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Population growth is different from demographics. 

UK population faces a specific challenge, namely the big spike in birth rate following WW2 and these 'baby boomers' all reaching retirement at the same time having been one of 4 or 5 children, and themsleves having about 2 children. This means we have a shortage of working age people, relative to non-working age people. Add to that medical and lifestyle advances and many in this generation will have retirements stretching into a 4th decade! Generally withdrawing far more, than they are paying in on a yearly basis. Not having a go or suggesting they aren't entitled, it's just a fact. And taking far far more out, on average, than someone having a child. 

Immigration can, and does, help fill that gap. Many of these immigrants will come for a few years and return from where they came. Obviously many will stay and build a family. 

Things that will help address the demographics in the long term. 
* Consistent birth rate 
* People working longer before retiring
* Immigration
* better investment in public services
* as I've said, encouragement of people / businesses to locate in other areas away from London / SE. 

World Population Growth - potentially a big problem and in reality not going to be solved by immigration policy in the UK and there will generally be ongoing global pressure on food, resources, fuel, transport etc.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2019)

Am sure if people want to Google MPs children's actions it will come up with multiple stories. But during an election of all times. Am not to sure. If her child was a child and not an adult you could brush this off as childish behaviour. But he has not done him, her, the Labour party any favours


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rip him to bits by all means, but bringing the fact she sent him to Public School is irrelevant.
Surely as a parent there becomes a point when the kid is responsible for their own actions.

Are you saying boris should be forced to say how many kids he’s fathered when he’s had a go at single mothers?

Maybe we should also remember he hasn’t been found guilty yet, if when he appears in Court and if he his found Guilty then absolutely lay in to him and her, until then I stand by the fact families should be kept out of politics unless they are used by the politician in a political situation.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone say that she is responsible for his actions and no one has reported his guilt, save to say what he is alleged to have done and been charged with. The public school is clearly relevant as it's her policy to abolish them and, if I recall, has been for a long time, whilst sending her son to one - somewhat hypocritical I'd say. I'd have no truck with anyone disclosing how many children Boris has fathered, but forcing him to say is not acceptable - if anyone feels that is an issue for an election then they shouldn't vote for the party he represents


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

This morning on _Today _Sajid Javid told me that the _only _thing that will prevent the UK striking a comprehensive and deep, tariff-free, trade deal with the EU by the end of June will be a Labour / SNP government of chaos.  Well - he convinces me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree, there's only one reason why everyone is clamouring for him to do it is to even up the party leaders in the "looking stupid" competition and hopefully Boris will win the competition by looking least stupid by not going on his show given how much he has to lose by doing so. Although I detest Swinson I thought she handled AN much better this time
		
Click to expand...

If Johnson had any political or moral backbone and conviction he'd be almost begging to be interviewed by AN to demonstrate how unprincipled and useless the other leaders are compared with him, and  his clear and principled visions for the UK.  That he currently won't simply exposes him to the accusation that he is indeed a charlatan, and someone who say whatever he thinks needs saying when in front of any specific audience as he laps up their adulation and applause...

Ye see yon birkie ca’d a lord,
Wha struts, an’ stares, an’ a’ that,
Tho’ hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Am sure if people want to Google MPs children's actions it will come up with multiple stories. But during an election of all times. Am not to sure. If her child was a child and not an adult you could brush this off as childish behaviour. But he has not done him, her, the Labour party any favours
		
Click to expand...

So no innocent until proven guilty then tash, surely it’s only alleged at the moment?
Does he not deserve a day in court?
What if he’s found not guilty?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I haven't seen anyone say that she is responsible for his actions and no one has reported his guilt, save to say what he is alleged to have done and been charged with. The public school is clearly relevant as it's her policy to abolish them and, if I recall, has been for a long time, whilst sending her son to one - somewhat hypocritical I'd say. I'd have no truck with anyone disclosing how many children Boris has fathered, but forcing him to say is not acceptable - if anyone feels that is an issue for an election then they shouldn't vote for the party he represents
		
Click to expand...

The only reason the Public School has been mentioned is because he’s been charged.
By all means debate her stance on that, if that was the actual debate, but using her son as the weapon to start that debate is wrong.
If he hadn’t of been charged this discussion wouldn’t be happening.

Is she hypocritical over Public Schools? Damn right she is.


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2019)

see the conservative party have procured the services of the social media guru's who masterminded the shock win for the Aussie Libs.

unfortunately most of what they posted and put out was lies and half truths  as if just Dom cummings wasn't enough


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This morning on _Today _Sajid Javid told me that the _only _thing that will prevent the UK striking a comprehensive and deep, tariff-free, trade deal with the EU by the end of June will be a Labour / SNP government of chaos.  Well - he convinces me.
		
Click to expand...

He was on Radio 5 and I fully admit I am bringing a lot of preconceptions to this, but he just sounded way out of his depth and all he could do is repeat 'labour will crash the economy' over and over again.  It was pitiful to me if this is the caliber of senior cabinet minsters we have in this brave new world we are forging for ourselves out of the EU.  But then again I suppose all some voters want to hear is him say Labour will allegedly trash the economy and that's enough.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is she hypocritical over Public Schools? Damn right she is.
		
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But she has the experience of them to suggest they don't offer academic benefits but they give networking opportunities ... 
Incidentally, what are Boris' academic qualifications ? Joe was the bright one in the family apparently.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He was on Radio 5 and I fully admit I am bringing a lot of preconceptions to this, but he just sounded way out of his depth and all he could do is repeat 'labour will crash the economy' over and over again.  It was pitiful to me if this is the caliber of senior cabinet minsters we have in this brave new world we are forging for ourselves out of the EU.  But then again I suppose all some voters want to hear is him say Labour will allegedly trash the economy and that's enough.
		
Click to expand...


If you repeat something frequently it becomes fact and truth ... the weak human minds need this, as it's a form of radicalisation.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I haven't seen anyone say that she is responsible for his actions and no one has reported his guilt, save to say what he is alleged to have done and been charged with. The public school is clearly relevant a*s it's her policy to abolish them *and, if I recall, has been for a long time, whilst sending her son to one - somewhat hypocritical I'd say. I'd have no truck with anyone disclosing how many children Boris has fathered, but forcing him to say is not acceptable - if anyone feels that is an issue for an election then they shouldn't vote for the party he represents
		
Click to expand...

In their manifesto Labour state

_'We will close the tax loopholes enjoyed by elite private schools and use that money to improve the lives of all children, and we will ask the Social Justice Commission to advise on integrating private schools and creating a comprehensive education system._ '

So no mater what her alleged personal policy is Labour's policy is not at this stage to abolish them.  They will ask for advice which I fully expect will come back saying the principle is OK but the practicalities of it are completely unrealistic under the current education system. So if anyone is voting for Labour as you think they will abolish public schools then don't, it's yet another manifesto statement that looks like one thing and they are fighting against the 'elite system' but in reality will not occur as they have a get out clause written in.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The only reason the Public School has been mentioned is because he’s been charged.
By all means debate her stance on that, if that was the actual debate, but using her son as the weapon to start that debate is wrong.
If he hadn’t of been charged this discussion wouldn’t be happening.

Is she hypocritical over Public Schools? Damn right she is.
		
Click to expand...

Just reinforces my view of those with a public school education... Totally clueless to the 'real world'... And, as a good a reason as any why anyone 'educated' in such a manner should be banned from holding political office...


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## drdel (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The difference is Tash, her son is now 28 and she’s no longer responsible for him.
boris has refused many times to discuss how many children he’s fathered(and I agree with him on this) but should we have a go as we need to know if his comments from 1995 about single mothers are fair?
Let’s be honest, any other Labour politician having this happen in their family it wouldn’t of made the headlines.
Families should be kept out of it unless the politician brings them in.
		
Click to expand...

Under normal circumstances I'd agree. However, just like the sacked Peterborough MP, DA chose to get/help him with _work _at the FO where he then supposedly got assy with a cop. If you want to claim she ain't responsible then she shouldn't be using her position to assist his prospects. her policy on public schools and her act of using them is clearly somewhat unprincipled!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			see the conservative party have procured the services of the social media guru's who masterminded the shock win for the Aussie Libs.

unfortunately most of what they posted and put out was lies and half truths  as if just Dom cummings wasn't enough

Click to expand...

We were in Australia in the lead up to their Federal Election this year, and the viciousness and 'attack-dog' personal nature of the TV, newspaper and roadside billboard advertising was astonishing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If Johnson had any political or moral backbone and conviction he'd be almost begging to be interviewed by AN to demonstrate how unprincipled and useless the other leaders are compared with his clear and principled visions for the UK.  That he currently won't simply exposes him to the accusation that he is indeed a charlatan, someone who say whatever he thinks needs saying when in front of any specific audience...

Ye see yon birkie ca’d a lord,
Wha struts, an’ stares, an’ a’ that,
Tho’ hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that.
		
Click to expand...

You know, if you wanted to test your ability to resist temptation, the best thing would be for you to be one of a group discussing politics, glass of Chardonnay  in hand.Each would be given a small task, under penalty of buying the wine.Yours would be to not comment adversely about Boris .
I reckon you would last less than two minutes, before going to your wallet!😁😁

As for interview with AN. IIRC, comments have been made about his trait of interrupting the answer , to an annoying degree.
I don't know if that is the case as I haven't seen his interviews,  but I have seen other interviewers with politicians, and it does seem to be an annoying trait, even from my position as a viewer.
If I were subject of this kind of rudeness, it wouldn't be long before I'd say words to the effect " If you don't keep quiet when I am answering your question, I shall terminate this interview. This is not about you, it is about the public learning what my answers are to your questions. Stop being rude"

I suspect so called experts are advising politicians to not respond in any manner which may be thought aggressive  , but to remain polite etc.  It seems to me that by doing so, they come over as inept and indecisive, and so they get slated for that. Can't win, can they?😊


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Under normal circumstances I'd agree. However, just like the sacked Peterborough MP, DA chose to get/help him with _work _at the FO where he then supposedly got assy with a cop. If you want to claim she ain't responsible then she shouldn't be using her position to assist his prospects. her policy on public schools and her act of using them is clearly somewhat unprincipled!!
		
Click to expand...

I know he did work for the FO at one time, the media have stated he was there visiting a friend, are you saying because she may or not have helped him to get a previous job all friends and contacts from his previous employment can be used against her for the rest of her life?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

Can anyone show me where Diane Abbott has called for the abolition of independent schools. 

The tax breaks and charitable status they enjoy are being questioned but that is a different matter. 

The policy on schools has been misinterpreted for many years. Wanting to improve standards within the State system relied upon by the vast majority is not asking for private schools to be scrapped. 

I may disagree with the Labour Party on how the State schools can be improved but seeking an improvement where those schools offer  similarly high standards as many in the independent sector is, to me, an admirable objective.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You know, if you wanted to test your ability to resist temptation, the best thing would be for you to be one of a group discussing politics, glass of Chardonnay  in hand.Each would be given a small task, under penalty of buying the wine.Yours would be to not comment adversely about Boris .
I reckon you would last less than two minutes, before going to your wallet!😁😁

As for interview with AN. IIRC, comments have been made about his trait of interrupting the answer , to an annoying degree.
I don't know if that is the case as I haven't seen his interviews,  but I have seen other interviewers with politicians, and it does seem to be an annoying trait, even from my position as a viewer.
If I were subject of this kind of rudeness, it wouldn't be long before I'd say words to the effect " If you don't keep quiet when I am answering your question, I shall terminate this interview. This is not about you, it is about the public learning what my answers are to your questions. Stop being rude"

I suspect so called experts are advising politicians to not respond in any manner which may be thought aggressive  , but to remain polite etc.  It seems to me that by doing so, they come over as inept and indecisive, and so they get slated for that. Can't win, can they?😊
		
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Difference between Johnson and the other leaders is that Johnson *will *be PM.  The GE voting in areas where it will really matter for the Tories to get a majority will be in Leave voting constituencies - and as many constituents are putting great faith in Johnson (and Johnson alone) delivering Brexit and a great comprehensive and deep trade deal with the EU - then we should hear *him *under scrutiny.   Are these voters not to see and hear under scrutiny the person they will be voting for - no matter what their constituency?


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## HughJars (Dec 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Loving Jo Swindle of the fib dems taking absolute bollox on bbc
		
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England was warned she was horrific, but no "ho ho ho, isn't she amazing breast feeding her child in parliament...". Nah, she's always been horrific, and the Lib-Dems dropped a massive bollock not doing their due diligence there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			yet, if when he appears in Court and if he his found Guilty then absolutely lay in to him and her, until then I stand by the fact families should be kept out of politics unless they are used by the politician in a political situation.
		
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Speaking of politicians using their children to get them out of a hole ...............Remember how well that worked for John Gummer and David Mellor.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So no innocent until proven guilty then tash, surely it’s only alleged at the moment?
Does he not deserve a day in court?
What if he’s found not guilty?
		
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I absolutely agree that he's innocent until proven guilty and, quite frankly, shouldn't be used in the GE. We could argue that its too simplistic to say innocent until proven guilty as the weight of evidence, e.g. bite marks, make it fairly obvious he's guilty. Bit of a non-story in that respect. He'll have his day in court, and its not a story I'll be following.

Do I care about her, and labour's, attitude to public schools? Yes. Labour would be removing people's choice, making it the state's choice. I disagree with the charity status many public schools operate under to avoid paying various taxes, and that should be changed. After that, Labour should focus on improving state schools, not on nationalising public schools.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Can anyone show me where Diane Abbott has called for the abolition of independent schools.

The tax breaks and charitable status they enjoy are being questioned but that is a different matter.

The policy on schools has been misinterpreted for many years. Wanting to improve standards within the State system relied upon by the vast majority is not asking for private schools to be scrapped.

I may disagree with the Labour Party on how the State schools can be improved but seeking an improvement where those schools offer  similarly high standards as many in the independent sector is, to me, an admirable objective.
		
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Not sure she specifically said it... from the Labour party's last conference.

"delegates have endorsed radical plans that would abolish private schools by removing their charitable status and redistributing their endowments, investments and properties to the state sector."

I don't know whether or not it made it into their manifesto, though conference said it should. However, it breaches the European Convention on Human rights, which includes the right to choose education.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure she specifically said it... from the Labour party's last conference.

"delegates have endorsed radical plans that would abolish private schools by removing their charitable status and redistributing their endowments, investments and properties to the state sector."

*I don't know whether or not it made it into their manifesto*, though conference said it should. However, it breaches the European Convention on Human rights, which includes the right to choose education.
		
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https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...9-general-election-thread.103293/post-2087394


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure she specifically said it... from the Labour party's last conference.

"delegates have endorsed radical plans that would abolish private schools by removing their charitable status and redistributing their endowments, investments and properties to the state sector."

I don't know whether or not it made it into their manifesto, though conference said it should. However, it breaches the European Convention on Human rights, which includes the right to choose education.
		
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Isn't it the case that a lot of the more extreme conference motions never become official manifesto policies. 

Personally I agree with you that choice should remain but I also feel that the tax breaks should be addressed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

HughJars said:



			England was warned she was horrific, but no "ho ho ho, isn't she amazing breast feeding her child in parliament...". Nah, she's always been horrific, and the Lib-Dems dropped a massive bollock not doing their due diligence there.
		
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Chances of holding on to her seat under an SNP onslaught?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

Also with regards to the hypocrisy around schools and MPs, whilst it made a great running joke in one series of The Tick of It, a comedy that is rapidly becoming less far fetched than actually reality nowadays, I personally would never criticize any MP of any party for wanting to do the best for their child as long as it is within the law. As as a parent that to me trumps everything. From Labour MPs sending their kids to private schools to Tory MPs getting their kids highly prized jobs or internships, I completely accept and understand why they do this.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also with regards to the hypocrisy around schools and MPs, whilst it made a great running joke in one series of The Tick of It, a comedy that is rapidly becoming less far fetched than actually reality nowadays, I personally would never criticize any MP of any party for wanting to do the best for their child as long as it is within the law. As as a parent that to me trumps everything. From Labour MPs sending their kids to private schools to Tory MPs getting their kids highly prized jobs or internships, I completely accept and understand why they do this.
		
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Totally agree with you but the problem comes when they do that but then remove the option for others to do the same. Whether that would be Labour removing the option for everyone else to use the public schools that they themselves used or if the Tories were to stop people getting jobs or internships.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Is *anything* that a party says outside of it's manifesto worth listening to.  

If it was important enough then it would have been in their manifesto - if it's not in their manifesto they can claim, when they walk back on their promise, by pointing out that it wasn't in their manifesto.  

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...bn-for-public-transport-in-midlands-and-north 

And I hear today from the Conservatives that in an early post-Brexit budget there *will *be a cut in income tax.  Really.  I know that the Conservatives always talk of themselves as being the party of low taxation, and that they have *committed *to a Tripe-Lock on tax in the next parliament - but committing to a reduction?  In their manifesto?  Maybe. And at the same time funding such as this £4bn on transport for midlands and north?  

Sadly, with Johnson as PM and the rest of the previous Cabinet likely to be still in place - I don't trust them an inch in any case


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## PNWokingham (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Difference between Johnson and the other leaders is that Johnson *will *be PM.  The GE voting in areas where it will really matter for the Tories to get a majority will be in Leave voting constituencies - and as many constituents are putting great faith in Johnson (and Johnson alone) delivering Brexit and a great comprehensive and deep trade deal with the EU - then we should hear *him *under scrutiny.   Are these voters not to see and hear under scrutiny the person they will be voting for - no matter what their constituency?
		
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well here is some more info on our main alternative - the fine, upstanding, terrorist-sympathysing, economically-illiterate, marxist anti-semite from Islington who cannot even have the balls to take a stand on the major issue of Brexit!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...sonally-accused-11-acts-anti-semitism-leaked/


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also with regards to the hypocrisy around schools and MPs, whilst it made a great running joke in one series of The Tick of It, a comedy that is rapidly becoming less far fetched than actually reality nowadays, I personally would never criticize any MP of any party for wanting to do the best for their child as long as it is within the law. As as a parent that to me trumps everything. From Labour MPs sending their kids to private schools to Tory MPs getting their kids highly prized jobs or internships, I completely accept and understand why they do this.
		
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I'm sure we all want the best for our children, but to remove the choice for other is, IMO, wrong. However, an ambition for a child is one thing but favouring them for jobs smacks of nepotism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			well here is some more info on our main alternative - the fine, upstanding, terrorist-sympathysing, economically-illiterate, marxist anti-semite from Islington who cannot even have the balls to take a stand on the major issue of Brexit!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...sonally-accused-11-acts-anti-semitism-leaked/

Click to expand...

Accused by the JLM (who obviously can’t be happy with waiting for the EHRC to do its job) and printed in the torygraph, what next, turkeys voting for Christmas.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Chances of holding on to her seat under an SNP onslaught?
		
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She will be supported by Labour & Tory voters so reasonable chance. Brexit voters will be irrelevant as they cannot support either Lib Dems or SNP [not sure if they are standing]
Last Scottish poll shows the SNP on 52% so perhaps they still have a chance.
Would it not be something to see both Johnson and Swinson unelected


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Accused by the JLM (who obviously can’t be happy with waiting for the EHRC to do its job) and printed in the torygraph, what next, turkeys voting for Christmas.

Click to expand...

It might be worth remembering that if Corbyn believes the PERSONAL accusations are false he can sue for libel. And it might be worth considering that the Telegraph would be aware of that, and will have only printed what they themselves can defend.

Payouts for libel claims in the papers are currently running well into 6 figures, and more if it then goes onto the European Court. Add costs to that and, WOW!

Do you think the Telegraph would risk a case like that, even one they might win, on a guess?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Accused by the JLM (who obviously can’t be happy with waiting for the EHRC to do its job) and printed in the torygraph, what next, turkeys voting for Christmas.

Click to expand...

ok - from a more acceptable source to our labour brethren

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ffers-give-statements-to-antisemitism-inquiry 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50666884 

they all talk about the same allegations


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It might be worth remembering that if Corbyn believes the PERSONAL accusations are false he can sue for libel. And it might be worth considering that the Telegraph would be aware that, and will have only printed what they themselves can defend.

Payouts for libel claims in the papers are currently running well into 6 figures, and more if it then goes onto the European Court. Add costs to that and, WOW!

Do you think the Telegraph would risk a case like that, even one they might win, on a guess?
		
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Do you not find it strange the JLM have leaked documents 7 days prior to a GE.
The more I read about the JLM and it’s  membership and anti-Corbyn comments from years and years back, the more sceptical I am of their agenda.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 5, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202545694571143168


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			ok - from a more acceptable source to our labour brethren

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ffers-give-statements-to-antisemitism-inquiry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50666884

they all talk about the same allegations
		
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As I’ve put to Hobbit, timing is everything, hopefully there’ll be an inquiry in to these leaks.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you not find it strange the JLM have leaked documents 7 days prior to a GE.
The more I read about the JLM and it’s  membership and anti-Corbyn comments from years and years back, the more sceptical I am of their agenda.
		
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No I don't find it strange in the slightest. Do you need a Krystal nacht before you acknowledge the danger? And I dare say the Jewish Community feel that even more.

As for the JLM's comments from years back; two things.

1) you've decried those people who have brought up some of Corbyn's history from years back but you now want to use JLM history - you can't have it both ways.

2) As a jew, do think they are comfortable with Corbyn's very long CV on Hamas, Hezbollah etc?

Definitely not strange, and I welcome their high profile involvement. Leaking now might stop the Labour(Nazi?) Party getting into power.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			No I don't find it strange in the slightest. Do you need a Krystal nacht before you acknowledge the danger? And I dare say the Jewish Community feel that even more.

As for the JLM's comments from years back; two things.

1) you've decried those people who have brought up some of Corbyn's history from years back but you now want to use JLM history - you can't have it both ways.

2) As a jew, do think they are comfortable with Corbyn's very long CV on Hamas, Hezbollah etc?

Definitely not strange, and I welcome their high profile involvement.
		
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They have been accused of being a front for the Isreali Government, there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of Jewish people standing up for Corbyn and stating they fear the JLM more. The Labour Party has Jewish Candidates standing in the GE who fear the JLM.

Have a read of this if you have time, just one article.

https://mronline.org/2019/04/29/jewish-labour-movement-was-revived-to-deal-with-corbyn/


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They have been accused of being a front for the Isreali Government, there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of Jewish people standing up for Corbyn and stating they fear the JLM more. The Labour Party has Jewish Candidates standing in the GE who fear the JLM.

Have a read of this if you have time, just one article.

https://mronline.org/2019/04/29/jewish-labour-movement-was-revived-to-deal-with-corbyn/

Click to expand...

Already read it. "They've been accused..." Has that been proven or has it been thrown out there by Corbyn supporters?

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact. You can look up every meeting Corbyn has had with those terror groups. You can Google the articles he's penned, or comments he made in support of those groups. You can look up the number of visits he's made to countries that openly oppose the jews, countries he's actually received state funding from. Those are facts.

I want a (Socialist)Labour govt but not this one at any price. You can't take a Krystal Nacht back. Violent Antisemitic Incidents in the UK are at their highest for the 3rd year in a row, and people wonder why they shouldn't support Labour...? A mainstream party with a recent and current antisemite history acknowledged by themselves, and people support them?

For me, Labour need a period of 'cleanliness,' and a totally different top table before I'd go anywhere near them.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2019)

Having a Jewish bloodline via my grandmother, I don't have an issue with Hamas or Hezbollah specifically. For me both these organisations are reactive and they are reacting may be incorrectly to poor behaviours that are shown to them. If those behaviours were to disappear and a less intrusive policy were to be deployed we might see a reduction in their bad behaviours.
I do think we as British people have a part to play, Israel was reborn and we lost lives to that terrorism at the time. You can forgive a lot of bad behaviours because of the holocaust, but we should not, and the active policy of infiltrating the Gaza strip is not acceptable.   
The only way you will resolve issues is engaging with both sides, you know as well as I do that the Israel government is legitimate in world eyes, and has an out let or forum. 
You are condoning a man who went and listened to someone who does not have a voice. 

As for these leaks .. yeah they have underlying motivations and they are not positive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Already read it. "They've been accused..." Has that been proven or has it been thrown out there by Corbyn supporters?

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact. You can look up every meeting Corbyn has had with those terror groups. You can Google the articles he's penned, or comments he made in support of those groups. You can look up the number of visits he's made to countries that openly oppose the jews, countries he's actually received state funding from. Those are facts.

I want a (Socialist)Labour govt but not this one at any price. You can't take a Krystal Nacht back. Violent Antisemitic Incidents in the UK are at their highest for the 3rd year in a row, and people wonder why they shouldn't support Labour...? A mainstream party with a recent and current antisemite history acknowledged by themselves, and people support them?

For me, Labour need a period of 'cleanliness,' and a totally different top table before I'd go anywhere near them.
		
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The JLM have come out and stated they won’t support Corbyn but are doing their utmost to also stop a Labour Government.
It makes no sense, they don’t have the support of all Jews or all Jewish MP’s and if there is a danger from another Krystal Nacht history tells us that comes from the Right side of politics.
You have a complete distrust in Corbyn, I have no issue with that, but the damage the JLM is doing is to the whole Party and Jewish people.

Membership of the JLM, you don’t have to be Jewish, You don’t have to be a member of the Labour Party.
People at the top of the group ex-employees of the Isreali Embassy.

Their aims and their political views seem at cross purposes to me.


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## HughJars (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Chances of holding on to her seat under an SNP onslaught?
		
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Big majority, bookies still have her well ahead, but apparently she's neck and neck, tough one to call.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			well here is some more info on our main alternative - the fine, upstanding, terrorist-sympathysing, economically-illiterate, marxist anti-semite from Islington who cannot even have the balls to take a stand on the major issue of Brexit!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...sonally-accused-11-acts-anti-semitism-leaked/

Click to expand...

I frankly don't care that much about many of the accusations flung at Corbyn (some do worry a bit) - he will not be PM.  I care about what Johnson says and how he acts under pressure (and I suggest that so should all of us) - as he will be PM - Corbyn won't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She will be supported by Labour & Tory voters so reasonable chance. Brexit voters will be irrelevant as they cannot support either Lib Dems or SNP [not sure if they are standing]
Last Scottish poll shows the SNP on 52% so perhaps they still have a chance.
Would it not be something to see both Johnson and Swinson unelected

Click to expand...

I see John Nicolson is not standing for the SNP.  Thought he was pretty good but a little too full of himself at times.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2019)

Rewind less than a decade...…..does anyone know what happened to...... 'fixing the roof when the sun was shining'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Rewind less than a decade...…..does anyone know what happened to...... 'fixing the roof when the sun was shining'.
		
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You mean 'shining' as in interest rates are very low and I have sufficiently good credit rating to borrow...


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I frankly don't care that much about many of the accusations flung at Corbyn (some do worry a bit) - *he will not be PM.*  I care about what Johnson says and how he acts under pressure (and I suggest that so should all of us) - *as he will be PM - Corbyn won't.*

Click to expand...

I wish I had your confidence. A hung parliament with a Labour government in power supported by the Lib Dems and SNP could very well see Corbyn in No.10.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He was on Radio 5 and I fully admit I am bringing a lot of preconceptions to this, but he just sounded way out of his depth and all he could do is repeat 'labour will crash the economy' over and over again.  It was pitiful to me if this is the caliber of senior cabinet minsters we have in this brave new world we are forging for ourselves out of the EU.  But then again I suppose all some voters want to hear is him say Labour will allegedly trash the economy and that's enough.
		
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The chutzpah of Javid knows few bounds today, but beggars belief...on current homelessness figures - it's all Labour's fault...when the Conservatives have been in power for ten years...have they forgotten?

And over these years the Conservative have - as Corbyn points out -  "made decisions to slash funding for hostels, housing benefit, homelessness services, and new homes – “all directly responsible for this increase in people living and dying on our streets.”

Ten years ago homelessness and living on the streets of Britain had been almost eradicated.

Javid's words are, at best, a grotesque twisting of the truth.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*The chutzpah of Javid knows few bounds today, but beggars belief...on current homelessness figures - it's all Labour's fault...when the Conservatives have been in power for ten years...have they forgotten?*

And over these years the Conservative have - as Corbyn points out -  "made decisions to slash funding for hostels, housing benefit, homelessness services, and new homes – “all directly responsible for this increase in people living and dying on our streets.”

Javid's words are, at best, a grotesque twisting of the truth.
		
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Basically he just lied.  Although I'm sure some wise monkeys on here would say he is telling some alternative truth and you can't call him a liar as that is a serious accusation blah blah blah.  So there you go, the best the probable Chancellor of the Exchequer in a weeks time can offer are lies then just repeating a stock phrase that Labour will crash the economy. Triffic.

*Reality Check: No, homelessness hasn't halved*





Reality Check
On Radio 5 Live this morning, Chancellor Sajid Javid said: “Under Labour, homelessness absolutely rocketed, it reached its peak in 2008 under the last Labour government. Since then, it is down almost 50%.”
Actually, the number of households classed as “unintentionally homeless and in priority need” in England reached a peak in 2003-04. It then fell under the Labour government reaching a low in 2009-10, according to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.
But since the Conservatives came into power it has increased by 40%. The number of households living in temporary accommodation has increased by 60% and the number of rough sleepers has well over doubled.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wish I had your confidence. A hung parliament with a Labour government in power supported by the Lib Dems and SNP could very well see Corbyn in No.10.
		
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I wish I had confidence in your fears


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## patricks148 (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The chutzpah of Javid knows few bounds today, but beggars belief...on current homelessness figures - it's all Labour's fault...when the Conservatives have been in power for ten years...have they forgotten?

And over these years the Conservative have - as Corbyn points out -  "made decisions to slash funding for hostels, housing benefit, homelessness services, and new homes – “all directly responsible for this increase in people living and dying on our streets.”

Ten years ago homelessness and living on the streets of Britain had been almost eradicated.

Javid's words are, at best, a grotesque twisting of the truth.
		
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not really just ;like most of the other Tory tripe... downright lies. it can't be said that the Tory's ever let the truth get in the way


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

One slightly rude word in it towards the end, not to be taken seriously but great fun nevertheless...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202510614314278914


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			One slightly rude word in it towards the end, not to be taken seriously but great fun nevertheless...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202510614314278914

Click to expand...



The rich have their tax loop holes whilst the poor can't afford loo rolls.
Spot on there.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Basically he just lied.  Although I'm sure some wise monkeys on here would say he is telling some alternative truth and you can't call him a liar as that is a serious accusation blah blah blah.  So there you go, the best the probable Chancellor of the Exchequer in a weeks time can offer are lies then just repeating a stock phrase that Labour will crash the economy. Triffic.

*Reality Check: No, homelessness hasn't halved*





Reality Check
On Radio 5 Live this morning, Chancellor Sajid Javid said: “Under Labour, homelessness absolutely rocketed, it reached its peak in 2008 under the last Labour government. Since then, it is down almost 50%.”
Actually, the number of households classed as “unintentionally homeless and in priority need” in England reached a peak in 2003-04. It then fell under the Labour government reaching a low in 2009-10, according to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.
But since the Conservatives came into power it has increased by 40%. The number of households living in temporary accommodation has increased by 60% and the number of rough sleepers has well over doubled.
		
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So the peak was in 2003-04.

Remind me again which party was in Government.

On the issue of homelessness neither party has any credibility as there are no votes in it.

People may wring their hands and donate money to Shelter at Christmas but there are very few for whom it is a decisive factor for their vote.

An issue for the journalists rather than the voters sadly.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

Seems 3 MEPs have quit the Conservative party to join the Brexit party. Sorry, I meant quit the Brexit party to join the Brexit party, no, quit the Conservatives to join the Conservatives.  Aah jeez, why is it so difficult to tell the 2 parties apart nowadays. I meant quit the Brexit party to join the Tories.  

Frankly I'm fuming as I thought my vote for the fragrant Ms Rees-Mogg in the European elections was so I could get a MEP from essentially a one issue party mostly trying to take us back to the 1970s to represent me. But now it turns out my MEP has quit the Conservatives and joined the Brexit party.  Sorry, other way round, it's so confusing...

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/east-midlands-mep-annunziata-rees-3611425


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So the peak was in 2003-04.

Remind me again which party was in Government.

*On the issue of homelessness neither party has any credibility*.
		
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I've put that through Tory Political Google Translate and it translated that as 'Labour addressed the situation so it reached a new low in the late noughties and since then the Tories have not prioritized it, which combined with other cuts to public services over that time meant it has risen alarmingly again. So based on that over whelming evidence that it fell during Labour administration and has risen again a lot under a Tory administration, let's just agree no one can do anything about it'.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've put that through Tory Political Google Translate and it translated that as 'Labour addressed the situation so it reached a new low in the late noughties and since then the Tories have not prioritized it, which combined with other cuts to public services over that time meant it has risen alarmingly again. So based on that over whelming evidence that it fell during Labour administration and has risen again a lot under a Tory administration, let's just agree no one can do anything about it'.
		
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Labour came to power in 1997 and the situation worsened through to 2004, that's seven years when the economy was relatively strong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So the peak was in 2003-04.

Remind me again which party was in Government.

On the issue of homelessness neither party has any credibility.
		
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So Labour were in government in 2003-04 and worked to get it down to the much lower level it was at when the Conservatives came to power in 2010. 

We know all about austerity and why the conservatives say it was essential - but austerity was a Conservative government choice - and it was the choice of the Conservatives where the cuts were made.  Lying about responsibility is not the same as not having any credibility. 

Why is Javid saying what he is saying about homelessness since 2010 when it is simply not true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems 3 MEPs have quit the Conservative party to join the Brexit party. Sorry, I meant quit the Brexit party to join the Brexit party, no, quit the Conservatives to join the Conservatives.  Aah jeez, why is it so difficult to tell the 2 parties apart nowadays. I meant quit the Brexit party to join the Tories. 

Frankly I'm fuming as I thought my vote for the fragrant Ms Rees-Mogg in the European elections was so I could get a MEP from essentially a one issue party mostly trying to take us back to the 1970s to represent me. But now it turns out my MEP has quit the Conservatives and joined the Brexit party.  Sorry, other way round, it's so confusing...

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/east-midlands-mep-annunziata-rees-3611425

Click to expand...

oooh my head is just spinning...(mind you there's a lot of it about)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So Labour were in government in 2003-04 and worked to get it down to the much lower level it was at when the Conservatives came to power in 2010.

We know all about austerity and why the conservatives say it was essential - but austerity was a Conservative government choice - and it was the choice of the Conservatives where the cuts were made.  Lying about responsibility is not the same as not having any credibility.

Why is Javid saying what he is saying about homelessness since 2010 when it is simply not true.
		
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How do the figures stack up compared with 1997 to 2008?

And I agree Javid has twisted the truth to breaking point but that certainly doesn't mean that we should pretend that Labour's overall record on this subject was anything to be particularly proud of.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Labour came to power in 1997 and the situation worsened through to 2004,* that's seven years when the economy was relatively strong*.
		
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So Labour do not always crash the economy after all??  So Javid was lying about that as well??  Jeez, I'm not 100% sure I trust the Tories after this bombshell...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So Labour do not always crash the economy after all??  So Javid was lying about that as well??  Jeez, I'm not 100% sure I trust the Tories after this bombshell...
		
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Returning to the original question are we to ignore what happened to the homeless during that period, or is it inconvenient to your narrative?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So Labour were in government in 2003-04 and worked to get it down to the much lower level it was at when the Conservatives came to power in 2010.

We know all about austerity and why the conservatives say it was essential - but austerity was a Conservative government choice - and it was the choice of the Conservatives where the cuts were made.  Lying about responsibility is not the same as not having any credibility.

Why is Javid saying what he is saying about homelessness since 2010 when it is simply not true.
		
Click to expand...

So what other choice did the Conservatives have than austerity (or reducing borrowing as I prefer to call it) Should they have borrowed the country out of debt ? Also it was not a decision by the Conservatives alone, it was a coalition decision.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			oooh my head is just spinning...(mind you there's a lot of it about)







Click to expand...

You said it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've put that through Tory Political Google Translate and it translated that as 'Labour addressed the situation so it reached a new low in the late noughties and since then the Tories have not prioritized it, which combined with other cuts to public services over that time meant it has risen alarmingly again. So based on that over whelming evidence that it fell during Labour administration and has risen again a lot under a Tory administration, let's just agree no one can do anything about it'.
		
Click to expand...

Still a week to go before we vote, plenty of time to blame Labour for shooting JFK and a photo of Corbyn as a kid advising Hitler were to invade.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The JLM have come out and stated they won’t support Corbyn but are doing their utmost to also stop a Labour Government.
It makes no sense, they don’t have the support of all Jews or all Jewish MP’s and if there is a danger from another Krystal Nacht history tells us that comes from the Right side of politics.
You have a complete distrust in Corbyn, I have no issue with that, but the damage the JLM is doing is to the whole Party and Jewish people.

Membership of the JLM, you don’t have to be Jewish, You don’t have to be a member of the Labour Party.
People at the top of the group ex-employees of the Isreali Embassy.

Their aims and their political views seem at cross purposes to me.
		
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You still haven't answered my points in post 2941, nor do you seem to take onboard the point in 2941 that includes that Labour have acknowledged they have a problem.

As for your comment about the far right in Germany attacking the jews... are you saying its ok for the far left(Labour) to do so? Antisemitism exists in the Labour, which they have openly acknowledged yet you're happy with that.

For me its about leopards and spots. If it had been a speeding or parking fine it wouldn't be given a second glance. It isn't, its about something extremely vile, and by people who've tried to dodge and weave away from the issue for years.

I'm not arguing against a socialist govt or a significant change in spending. I'm not arguing for a Tory govt. I'm arguing that Labour, with that top table is unfit for office.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You still haven't answered my points in post 2941, nor do you seem to take onboard the point in 2941 that includes that Labour have acknowledged they have a problem.

As for your comment about the far right in Germany attacking the jews... are you saying its ok for the far left(Labour) to do so? Antisemitism exists in the Labour, which they have openly acknowledged yet you're happy with that.

For me its about leopards and spots. If it had been a speeding or parking fine it wouldn't be given a second glance. It isn't, its about something extremely vile, and by people who've tried to dodge and weave away from the issue for years.

I'm not arguing against a socialist govt or a significant change in spending. I'm not arguing for a Tory govt. I'm arguing that Labour, with that top table is unfit for office.
		
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I thought I had answered the posts, I’m talking about the JLM stance on Corbyn since 2016 and April this year when they passed the motion at their AGM to oppose Corbyn and his attempt to become PM.
As for his history with Hezbollah etc, he has campaigned against the Israeli occupation and their rights, I can turn that question around by asking how the jews that have come out and supported him and attempting to become MP’s have reconciled his past and their beliefs.
I’ve got to the point were I have to decide between Corbyn and boris, boris is a bigger threat to this Country in my opinion.
I don’t believe the Labour party has the antisemite problem the JLM claim, although I totally agree any and every allegation should be investigated.
Below is a tweet from an account called GnasherJew, an account claiming to expose left wing antisemitism, run by Jewish Investigative journalists & ex Labour members.
Tell me if this doesn’t tell people what part of the issue is:


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## spongebob59 (Dec 5, 2019)

Swinson in the news again bleating about the 'stitch I'm between the Torys and the Brexit party. Is this the same as the stitch up between her and the greens and other parties ? 😉


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Population growth is different from demographics.

UK population faces a specific challenge, namely the big spike in birth rate following WW2 and these 'baby boomers' all reaching retirement at the same time having been one of 4 or 5 children, and themsleves having about 2 children. This means we have a shortage of working age people, relative to non-working age people. Add to that medical and lifestyle advances and many in this generation will have retirements stretching into a 4th decade! Generally withdrawing far more, than they are paying in on a yearly basis. Not having a go or suggesting they aren't entitled, it's just a fact. And taking far far more out, on average, than someone having a child.

Immigration can, and does, help fill that gap. Many of these immigrants will come for a few years and return from where they came. Obviously many will stay and build a family.

Things that will help address the demographics in the long term.
* Consistent birth rate
* People working longer before retiring
* Immigration
* better investment in public services
* as I've said, encouragement of people / businesses to locate in other areas away from London / SE.

World Population Growth - potentially a big problem and in reality not going to be solved by immigration policy in the UK and there will generally be ongoing global pressure on food, resources, fuel, transport etc.
		
Click to expand...

I dont think we are going to agree on this subject, I would make a few points though. 

I don't think many people would suggest we should have a zero immigration policy, it needs controlling so that it is targeted to meet requirements.  

I don't understand how anyone can think uncontrolled immigration is good for the country.

How big should our population be so that it is sustainable?


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2019)

I don't believe Corbyn is personally anti-semetic, nor is he a 'supporter of terrorists' as he has been described in the past. My view is that he supports (what he considers) the 'down-trodden', which includes/d Irish Nationalists (H'mm..A {PR disaster for him!) and the Palestinian movemnt (who I have some/significant sympathy with!). 

I would not be surprised that 'history' eventually shows he was actually used as a/the conduit through which negotiations between UK government and the IRA were initiated, so he could well end up being something of a hero decades from now!

However, all his other policies are 'poor to abhorrent' to me, so I'm not a fan!

Oh and the overwhelming Tory bised 'Press' will simply continue their propaganda/castigation of him, so (fortunately) he dosn't really stand a chance!

Labour really needs to move to a 'populist' agenda (as per the Blair approach) in order to get elected! Until then, Tory idiots like Bozo (oops) won't face any real challenge - except from within!


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought I had answered the posts, I’m talking about the JLM stance on Corbyn since 2016 and April this year when they passed the motion at their AGM to oppose Corbyn and his attempt to become PM.
As for his history with Hezbollah etc, he has campaigned against the Israeli occupation and their rights, I can turn that question around by asking how the jews that have come out and supported him and attempting to become MP’s have reconciled his past and their beliefs.
I’ve got to the point were I have to decide between Corbyn and boris, boris is a bigger threat to this Country in my opinion.
I don’t believe the Labour party has the antisemite problem the JLM claim, although I totally agree any and every allegation should be investigated.
Below is a tweet from an account called GnasherJew, an account claiming to expose left wing antisemitism, run by Jewish Investigative journalists & ex Labour members.
Tell me if this doesn’t tell people what part of the issue is:
View attachment 28690

Click to expand...

You'd replied insomuch as they were included in a reply but you didn't reply to the points.

You're willing to vote Labour, and for the vast majority of their socialist policies I agree with you. I do question the affordability, especially the amount of spending in one term they are proposing - it won't happen. There'll be excuse after excuse that they can't afford it, and I don't have too much of a problem with that. Every party is making ludicrous promises, most of which will never see the light of day.

For me, the antisemitism is the red line. Nothing to do with Labour 'v' Tory, or whoever. I do wonder about a lesser of two evils comparison - as I've said before Johnson is Trump-lite. Nothing to do with their spending plans, because I don't believe many will come to fruition.

As for the JLM, they're (almost) new to this argument. You could even take the JLM bit out of it and just look at all the rubbish that has gone on since just before Chakrabati was in charge of the first whitewash. The stats are there, as I said, antisemitic attacks have risen in each of the last 3 years to their highest on record in each year - they are independent of any complaint from the JLM about the Labour Party.

Anyway, you won't convince me that Labour are anything other than guilty in terms of antisemitism - don't forget, they've admitted they have a problem. And in that respect they will not get my vote.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought I had answered the posts, I’m talking about the JLM stance on Corbyn since 2016 and April this year when they passed the motion at their AGM to oppose Corbyn and his attempt to become PM.
As for his history with Hezbollah etc, he has campaigned against the Israeli occupation and their rights, I can turn that question around by asking how the jews that have come out and supported him and attempting to become MP’s have reconciled his past and their beliefs.
I’ve got to the point were I have to decide between Corbyn and boris, boris is a bigger threat to this Country in my opinion.
I don’t believe the Labour party has the antisemite problem the JLM claim, although I totally agree any and every allegation should be investigated.
Below is a tweet from an account called GnasherJew, an account claiming to expose left wing antisemitism, run by Jewish Investigative journalists & ex Labour members.
Tell me if this doesn’t tell people what part of the issue is:
View attachment 28690

Click to expand...

You will vote Labour, you always were going to.

So someone makes a tweet suggesting antisemitism is due to a group of ex labour Jewish Journalists , Jeez that looks very suspicious, I dont suppose momentum would be behind it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You will vote Labour, you always were going to.

So someone makes a tweet suggesting antisemitism is due to a group of ex labour Jewish Journalists , Jeez that looks very suspicious, I dont suppose momentum would be behind it?
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to google to the group, I don’t think they’d appreciate being linked with momentum, but hey ho, better to deflect than do some actual research.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Feel free to google to the group, I don’t think they’d appreciate being linked with momentum, but hey ho, better to deflect than do some actual research.
		
Click to expand...

Your. Posting of it is a diversion from Labour's antisemitism accusations.  Are you really suggesting that tweet lets Corbyn off the hook.  Really!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You'd replied insomuch as they were included in a reply but you didn't reply to the points.

You're willing to vote Labour, and for the vast majority of their socialist policies I agree with you. I do question the affordability, especially the amount of spending in one term they are proposing - it won't happen. There'll be excuse after excuse that they can't afford it, and I don't have too much of a problem with that. Every party is making ludicrous promises, most of which will never see the light of day.

For me, the antisemitism is the red line. Nothing to do with Labour 'v' Tory, or whoever. I do wonder about a lesser of two evils comparison - as I've said before Johnson is Trump-lite. Nothing to do with their spending plans, because I don't believe many will come to fruition.

As for the JLM, they're (almost) new to this argument. You could even take the JLM bit out of it and just look at all the rubbish that has gone on since just before Chakrabati was in charge of the first whitewash. The stats are there, as I said, antisemitic attacks have risen in each of the last 3 years to their highest on record in each year - they are independent of any complaint from the JLM about the Labour Party.

Anyway, you won't convince me that Labour are anything other than guilty in terms of antisemitism - don't forget, they've admitted they have a problem. And in that respect they will not get my vote.
		
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You haven’t answered the point about how some jews support him.
As for the rest, that’s the blessing of being in a democracy and as we’ve both agreed in the past, it’s the lesser of 2 evils we have to choose between and with the tories failing to take responsibility for some of the problems we’ve faced over the last 9 years (the chancellor and the homeless today being another example) I believe the poorest and weakest will suffer more and we’ll also end up with a No Deal Brexit that will compound the problems.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your. Posting of it is a diversion from Labour's antisemitism accusations.  Are you really suggesting that tweet lets Corbyn off the hook.  Really!
		
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Rubbish, the Labour Party have said they abhor it and will investigate any accusations from anyone. Corbyn has apologised a few times, 
Do you really agree people should sit on that information and wait to use it as per the reply in the post?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2019)




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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, the Labour Party have said they abhor it and will investigate any accusations from anyone. Corbyn has apologised a few times,
Do you really agree people should sit on that information and wait to use it as per the reply in the post?
		
Click to expand...

An honourable man would resign. He’s presided over the biggest single disgrace the Labour Party has ever experienced.

Going off at a tangent, the pathetic interview aired last night with Julie Etchingham, in which he said he watches the Queen’s speech on Christmas morning. It’s almost a nothing point whether he watches it or not. But to say he does when he so patently doesn’t... the guy is an out and out liar. And in that respect he’s no better than Johnson. And he says that Labour has addressed antisemitism... how can you believe him?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2019)

https://mcb.org.uk/press-releases/m...to-ehrc-over-conservative-party-islamophobia/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			An honourable man would resign. He’s presided over the biggest single disgrace the Labour Party has ever experienced.

Going off at a tangent, the pathetic interview aired last night with Julie Etchingham, in which he said he watches the Queen’s speech on Christmas morning. It’s almost a nothing point whether he watches it or not. But to say he does when he so patently doesn’t... the guy is an out and out liar. And in that respect he’s no better than Johnson. And he says that Labour has addressed antisemitism... how can you believe him?
		
Click to expand...

Still not answering the question Bri,
How are those Jews still in the Labour Party and supporting him reconciling themselves with all this information out there?


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 28691

Click to expand...

Bearing in mind the amount of flak fired at Corbyn in recent years, this makes for compelling evidence to counter those claims.

But isn't it a little odd(convenient) that such a weighty piece of work only surfaces now.

I can't call it BS because I can't definitively say it is, but I am hugely sceptical that this is genuine.


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## Hobbit (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Still not answering the question Bri,
How are those Jews still in the Labour Party and supporting him reconciling themselves with all this information out there?
		
Click to expand...

Tell you what, to play the SR card, you answer the question I posed to you first....

Actually I'm pissed off with playing this game. Corbyn and Labour are fundamentally antisemite and you are defending that time and again. Just what does that make you..............


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## Wolf (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, the Labour Party have said they abhor it and will investigate any accusations from anyone. Corbyn has apologised a few times,
Do you really agree people should sit on that information and wait to use it as per the reply in the post?
		
Click to expand...

For me I don't particularly care about the timing as much as I do about the sheer number of Anti Semitic complaints that Labour has had from both outside and within its own party.

It also doesnt matter how many times Corbyn says sorry or that he finds it abhorrent or how many people  post of times he helped Jewish people, I find it more abhorrent that so many cases took so long to be acknowledged, that despite supposedly resolving the issues in the past that it still continued the under his leadership.   The only real way for him and the leadership(momentum etc) to truly apologise is to stand aside and for the party to be cleansed of this issue.

This issue alone is reason enough for me not to vote for him let alone the fact I don't believe the manifesto is in anyway affordable without it impacting the average working family or causing further detrimental impact on the countries economic state.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Tell you what, to play the SR card, you answer the question I posed to you first....

Actually I'm pissed off with playing this game.* Corbyn *and Labour are fundamentally antisemite and you are defending that time and again. Just what does that make you..............
		
Click to expand...

There has been proof of issues within the Labour Party but I don’t believe there is proof that Corbyn himself is Anti Semitic - I don’t agree with him but he has spent his whole life battling against Racism 

But agree as leader he should have done something


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Tell you what, to play the SR card, you answer the question I posed to you first....

Actually I'm pissed off with playing this game. Corbyn and Labour are fundamentally antisemite and you are defending that time and again. Just what does that make you..............
		
Click to expand...

Wow, gone low and name calling, never expected that from you, no worries, as for defending Corbyn, simply pointed out the fact that he’s apologised more than once, said all complaints would be investigated, I believe he is and has took it very seriously.
You obviously believe the JLM, I believe they have another agenda.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 5, 2019)

Think Farage is giving Neill a good run for his money. Wish Neill would STOP continually interrupting


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			An honourable man would resign. He’s presided over the biggest single disgrace the Labour Party has ever experienced.

Going off at a tangent, the pathetic interview aired last night with Julie Etchingham, *in which he said he watches the Queen’s speech on Christmas morning. It’s almost a nothing point whether he watches it or not.* But to say he does when he so patently doesn’t... the guy is an out and out liar. And in that respect he’s no better than Johnson. And he says that Labour has addressed antisemitism... how can you believe him?
		
Click to expand...

This is what I thought last night as well. The answer that he eventually stumbled around to giving about having family around, visiting a homeless shelter and not watching it would have been perfectly acceptable had he just come out and said it. But to initially make out that he does watch it and then fumble around to get to the truth was somewhat bizarre. It's as though he listens to any question and then tries to give the answer that he thinks people want to hear rather than giving an honest answer. Yes they all do it to one degree or other but he just seems to be worse for it than anyone else.


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## chrisd (Dec 5, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Think Farage is giving Neill a good run for his money. Wish Neill would STOP continually interrupting
		
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Me too


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			For me I don't particularly care about the timing as much as I do about the sheer number of Anti Semitic complaints that Labour has had from both outside and within its own party.

It also doesnt matter how many times Corbyn says sorry or that he finds it abhorrent or how many people  post of times he helped Jewish people, I find it more abhorrent that so many cases took so long to be acknowledged, that despite supposedly resolving the issues in the past that it still continued the under his leadership.   The only real way for him and the leadership(momentum etc) to truly apologise is to stand aside and for the party to be cleansed of this issue.

This issue alone is reason enough for me not to vote for him let alone the fact I don't believe the manifesto is in anyway affordable without it impacting the average working family or causing further detrimental impact on the countries economic state.
		
Click to expand...

No issues with your points on the manifesto, I described it as a fairy story, don’t know how much you’ve looked in to or researched the JLM, it’s interesting and not as black and white as it appears in my opinion.

Going back to the original 136 cases sent to the EHRC by the JLM, Labour disputed they hadn’t been dealt with, it then comes out these were cases the JLM didn’t agree with the Labour findings, that’s different to not being dealt with.

Anyway best I leave there.


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## Wolf (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No issues with your points on the manifesto, I described it as a fairy story, don’t know how much you’ve looked in to or researched the JLM, it’s interesting and not as black and white as it appears in my opinion.

Going back to the original 136 cases sent to the EHRC by the JLM, Labour disputed they hadn’t been dealt with, it then comes out these were cases the JLM didn’t agree with the Labour findings, that’s different to not being dealt with.

Anyway best I leave there.

Click to expand...

I've looked into it plenty and am looking at the bigger picture for me Its not just about the 136 cases though for me that's to simplistic an approach, its about all of the cases over the years under his tenure which is why imo the apologies don't matter, i can appreciate he may well be sorry I'm not even saying Corbyn himself is antisemitic but he has failed as a leader in this matter over a number of years.

I also have massive issues with Boris and his character so very much can't see my vote going there it's a bad time for politics especially with those leading the major parties


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## drdel (Dec 5, 2019)

Surely the fact is that the Labour party and JC have apologised and promised to investigate only AFTER being put under pressure to do so.

Any apology made under duress hardly ranks as genuine, IMO.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2019)

Come on Boris, he's a Tory boy, he's told you the questions he will ask you beforehand, surely you can't still be scared.  I'm currently respecting Farage more than you at that is never a good sign.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202670854410297344


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Surely the fact is that the Labour party and JC have apologised and promised to investigate only AFTER being put under pressure to do so.

Any apology made under duress hardly ranks as genuine, IMO.
		
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3rd time he’s apologised since 2016, latest 2 days ago, could apologise another 50 times and he wouldn’t be believed.
Still no comments on how the JLM have behaved in this manner, no ulterior motive from them apart from passing a motion at their AGM in April to do everything in their power to stop Corbyn becoming PM, which came after they lost the court battle to have any anti-Israel comments classified as anti-semite.
The JLM report to the EHRC leaked.

https://orientxxi.info/magazine/ant...ffensive-against-jeremy-corbyn-in-the-uk,2446


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2019)

Anti Semitic or liar .. gosh the options!

So everyone happy with the deal? 
Anyone want to renegotiate or have a Canada/Norway type deal? 
Or should we just stay ? 

The choice your making is about Brexit and dare I say the next 10 -20 years .. 

I really don’t give a hoot about their manifestos, how many have ever been delivered on? Are they of any value given the Brexit constipation..


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## Wolf (Dec 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			3rd time he’s apologised since 2016, latest 2 days ago, could apologise another 50 times and he wouldn’t be believed.
Still no comments on how the JLM have behaved in this manner, no ulterior motive from them apart from passing a motion at their AGM in April to do everything in their power to stop Corbyn becoming PM, which came after they lost the court battle to have any anti-Israel comments classified as anti-semite.
The JLM report to the EHRC leaked.

https://orientxxi.info/magazine/ant...ffensive-against-jeremy-corbyn-in-the-uk,2446

Click to expand...

Thats because it doesn't matter how many times he says sorry especially if its under duress, apologies back in 2016 are irrelevant now because since then there has been mire anti semitism in his party as leader he should have cut it off completely and shouldn't have been anymore occurrences. Its fair enough Paul that you're willing to accept that apology from him on the parties behalf and move on, even defend him as your choice but we don't all share in that acceptance and feel under his tenure something thsts an issue festered, continued and in some cases got worse. I won't accept his apology for that continued failure of leadership.


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## User62651 (Dec 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Come on Boris, he's a Tory boy, he's told you the questions he will ask you beforehand, surely you can't still be scared.  I'm currently respecting Farage more than you at that is never a good sign.
		
Click to expand...

Potentially damaging for PM, crafty bit of fishing by beeb/Neill. Will the PM take the bait? Lose lose situation for BJ.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2019)

Haven’t heard Boris apologise at all for his indiscretions and lies.

Remember that Boris doesn’t like the working classes .. and makes no apologies for it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 5, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Thats because it doesn't matter how many times he says sorry especially if its under duress, apologies back in 2016 are irrelevant now because since then there has been mire anti semitism in his party as leader he should have cut it off completely and shouldn't have been anymore occurrences. Its fair enough Paul that you're willing to accept that apology from him on the parties behalf and move on, even defend him as your choice but we don't all share in that acceptance and feel under his tenure something thsts an issue festered, continued and in some cases got worse. I won't accept his apology for that continued failure of leadership.
		
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I’m not willing to accept his latest apology, I agree he could of tried more, I just believe there’s something more sinister at play here.
I don’t like Corbyn, I wish he wasn’t leader, the bit I do believe is that the Labour Party now has systems in place to deal with complaints.
Have a look at the link I posted, Jewish people have been attacked for being antisemitic.
It’s his support of the palestinian people that is driving this.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Haven’t heard Boris apologise at all for his indiscretions and lies.

Remember that Boris doesn’t like the working classes .. and makes no apologies for it.
		
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Corbyn doesn't like the working classes, he likes the islington elite set, the middle class socialists that are driving his stormtrooper momentum brigade, mainly made up of state employed or retired who have never worked in the real world of business and industry but on the last bastions of trade union control. The working classes (what ever that means now) have been lied to and ignored because they tend to want to leave the EU as they don't see the benifits but are at the brunt end of the effects social engineering has hoisted on their lives. Its OK for these armchair socialists in their leafy suburban homes to suggest the proletariat unwashed with their uneducated and racist views dont know what's good for them but these views are starting to surface and be exposed for the high horse balderdash they are.


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## 2blue (Dec 5, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Think Farage is giving Neill a good run for his money. Wish Neill would STOP continually interrupting
		
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ha hahaha....  no he's not........  Should have gone to Spec Savers... he was mashed


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## 2blue (Dec 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn doesn't like the working classes, he likes the islington elite set, the middle class socialists that are driving his stormtrooper momentum brigade, mainly made up of state employed or retired who have never worked in the real world of business and industry but on the last bastions of trade union control. The working classes (what ever that means now) have been lied to and ignored because they tend to want to leave the EU as they don't see the benifits but are at the brunt end of the effects social engineering has hoisted on their lives. Its OK for these armchair socialists in their leafy suburban homes to suggest the proletariat unwashed with their uneducated and racist views dont know what's good for them but these views are starting to surface and be exposed for the high horse balderdash they are.
		
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I think you've spent too much time Dib, dibbing & dob, dobbing...  you've been radicalized. Mean while the real world goes on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So what other choice did the Conservatives have than austerity (or reducing borrowing as I prefer to call it) Should they have borrowed the country out of debt ? Also it was not a decision by the Conservatives alone, it was a coalition decision.
		
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Whether or not they had a choice is actually neither here nor there in respect of what Javid said.  Homelessness has increased on the Tory Party watch since 2010 - aided and abetted by cuts brought around through the austerity programme.  The Tory Party may not have wanted to make the cuts - and of course would not have wanted to see increased homelessness as a result - but that is - as a matter of fact - what happened.  Homelessness has increased since 2010 as a result of Tory Party austerity policy.  It is simply an untruth to say otherwise.  

Javid was the housing minister from July 2016 to April 2018, and so to suggest that somehow he 'forgot' the truth of the matter is just a nonsense - do they take us for fools?  I suspect that Javid deliberately made this misleading (false?) statement in an attempt to mislead voters - I suppose to fix in the mind of some the idea that Labour is to blame.  It's desperate stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

2blue said:



			I think you've spent too much time Dib, dibbing & dob, dobbing...  you've been radicalized. Mean while the real world goes on. 

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😄😄😄🙄🙄 Is that all youve got?
Silly boy 🤯
Let us hear the wisdom of your views, weve heard your schoolboy one liners but do you have anymore to enlighten us with.  I somehow doubt it.   Dyb Dob 😏


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether or not they had a choice is actually neither here nor there in respect of what Javid said.  Homelessness has increased on the Tory Party watch since 2010 - aided and abetted by cuts brought around through the austerity programme.  The Tory Party may not have wanted to make the cuts - and of course would not have wanted to see increased homelessness as a result - but that is - as a matter of fact - what happened.  Homelessness has increased since 2010 as a result of Tory Party austerity policy.  It is simply an untruth to say otherwise. 

Javid was the housing minister from July 2016 to April 2018, and so to suggest that somehow he 'forgot' the truth of the matter is just a nonsense - do they take us for fools?  I suspect that Javid deliberately made this misleading (false?) statement in an attempt to mislead voters - I suppose to fix in the mind of some the idea that Labour is to blame.  It's desperate stuff.
		
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Of course its here or there.   What is this homelessness you go on about, how many people have been thrown out of their homes onto the street by Javid?  Do you have all the facts on homelesness, is it a result of the high employment levels or the way wage rises are outstripping inflation?  No one wants people to be homeless but you try to make it sound as if its Conservative policy, that's just petty and narrow thinking.  I suggest there is a plathoria of reasons why people are homeless but its not a simple problem and just using the blunt  instrument of blaming thr Conservatives.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course its here or there.   What is this homelessness you go on about, how many people have been thrown out of their homes onto the street by Javid?  Do you have all the facts on homelesness, is it a result of the high employment levels or the way wage rises are outstripping inflation?  No one wants people to be homeless but you try to make it sound as if its Conservative policy, that's just petty and narrow thinking.  I suggest there is a plathoria of reasons why people are homeless but its not a simple problem and just using the blunt  instrument of blaming thr Conservatives.
		
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It's to do with Javid as a minister of a Conservative government and as housing minister for a time in the last ten years.  It's to do with Javid as it is he who claimed that the current level of homelessness is down to the previous Labour government.

The level of homelessness that we have today is a lot greater than it was ten yrs ago when the Tory Party came to power.  And we know that austerity-related cuts have hit services that support those at risk of becoming homeless.  Austerity was/is Conservative Party policy and that policy will have had an impact on homelessness. Nowhere did I say that making any individual or group of individuals homeless was a Conservative Party policy.  However it is a FACT that homelessness has risen under the Tories - this is not the fault of the previous Labour government as Javid asserted.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 6, 2019)

What’s all this “Dib Dob” stuff that people are posting on here?

Back in the 1960’s DYB DOB was a Scout chant meaning “Do Your Best- Do Our Best”

Now it seems to have been hijacked for political purposes or point scoring.
Which is a shame


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether or not they had a choice is actually neither here nor there in respect of what Javid said.  Homelessness has increased on the Tory Party watch since 2010 - aided and abetted by cuts brought around through the austerity programme.  The Tory Party may not have wanted to make the cuts - and of course would not have wanted to see increased homelessness as a result - but that is - as a matter of fact - what happened.  Homelessness has increased since 2010 as a result of Tory Party austerity policy.  It is simply an untruth to say otherwise.

Javid was the housing minister from July 2016 to April 2018, and so to suggest that somehow he 'forgot' the truth of the matter is just a nonsense - do they take us for fools?  I suspect that Javid deliberately made this misleading (false?) statement in an attempt to mislead voters - I suppose to fix in the mind of some the idea that Labour is to blame.  It's desperate stuff.
		
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Let’s get it clear all that is rubbish now, is of the Tory making as is all the good ( but you will have to remind me). They have been in power for more than a decade


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## patricks148 (Dec 6, 2019)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=550563492176134



an invitation from Andrew Neil, just in case Boris is having a peek at the forum


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Saw it last night, load of crap, no one is required to go on any particular programme to be interviewed and now AN has been arrogant enough to say this crap publicly I'd, if i were Boris, would tell him exactly where to go.


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## Beezerk (Dec 6, 2019)

patricks148 said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=550563492176134



an invitation from Andrew Neil, just in case Boris is having a peek at the forum
		
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Comes across as a bit of a big headed knob there imo.


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## patricks148 (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Saw it last night, load of crap, no one is required to go on any particular programme to be interviewed and now AN has been arrogant enough to say this crap publicly I'd, if i were Boris, would tell him exactly where to go.
		
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funny how he had time to go on Holly and Phil an get a selfie... just running scared, what does that make him....? is he going to face up to other world leaders if he won't even face a journalist who's going to ask him a few question?


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			funny how he had time to go on Holly and Phil an get a selfie... just running scared, what does that make him....? is he going to face up to other world leaders if he won't even face a journalist who's going to ask him a few question?
		
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I'm pretty sure Putin or Trump are not going to approach a meeting in the way that AN does an interview where his sole intention is to get the interviewee to agree with him all the time. Last night Nigel Farage was getting visibly angry with AN, something I've rarely seen from Farage who, if nothing else, is usually pretty calm and collected. If I were Boris I'd tell AN where to go, something I reckon that Wee Krankie had wished she'd done !


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## jp5 (Dec 6, 2019)

Not a great look for Johnson... why is he scared of a proper interview?


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 6, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Comes across as a bit of a big headed knob there imo.
		
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Agreed. Didn't Nige do well though. Although he did get led down alleyways by AN when he could have stood his ground and kept to the...we are here to ensure Boris gets us out. Really why both trying to answer questions about what Brexit would do if they were in power. They're not even standing in half the seats.  He also was very honest regarding dodgy candidates "dunno" (basically) was his replies. It's a real shame that he will walk away from all this once Brexit is done, (coz he will that's why he's not standing anywhere). He's not gonna be bothered too much over the detail, just wants to make sure we get out. 

PS I'll bet £20 that we have a referendum to go back in to the EU (if it's still going) by the end of 2030.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure Putin or Trump are not going to approach a meeting in the way that AN does an interview where his sole intention is to get the interviewee to agree with him all the time. Last night Nigel Farage was getting visibly angry with AN, something I've rarely seen from Farage who, if nothing else, is usually pretty calm and collected. *If I were Boris I'd tell AN where to go, something I reckon that Wee Krankie had wished she'd done* !
		
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So you'll use Andrew Neil's interviews to form an opinion of one leader but don't want another leader to go on as you feel it would be a waste of time? You obviously watch them as you seem to comment on each one he does.


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## Grant85 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont think we are going to agree on this subject, I would make a few points though.

I don't think many people would suggest we should have a zero immigration policy, it needs controlling so that it is targeted to meet requirements. 

I don't understand how anyone can think uncontrolled immigration is good for the country.

How big should our population be so that it is sustainable?
		
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Immigration is currently controlled by economics... supply and demand. People are not moving to a different country to be idle, despite what some right wing commentators would have you believe. The vast vast majority are working, paying taxes, boosting the economy. 

When people talk about 'controlled immigration' they inevitably mean 'less immigration'. 

Post Brexit, you might have controlled immigration, but I'm willing to bet that the UK Gov (or UK based companies who the gov are forced into giving visa powers) will be spending millions sending teams to jobs fairs in Europe, Asia, Africa etc. screaming for people to come and work on building sites, in hospitals, in hospitality etc. 

Ultimately fewer people of working age in the country will be bad for our economy and bad for our population. As I've said, some work required on encouraging the population away from London / SE.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Immigration is currently controlled by economics... supply and demand. People are not moving to a different country to be idle, despite what some right wing commentators would have you believe. The vast vast majority are working, paying taxes, boosting the economy.

When people talk about 'controlled immigration' they inevitably mean 'less immigration'.

Post Brexit, you might have controlled immigration, but I'm willing to bet that the *UK Gov (or UK based companies who the gov are forced into giving visa powers) will be spending millions sending teams to jobs fairs in Europe, Asia, Africa etc*. screaming for people to come and work on building sites, in hospitals, in hospitality etc.

Ultimately fewer people of working age in the country will be bad for our economy and bad for our population. As I've said, some work required on encouraging the population away from London / SE.
		
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Ironically even with the so called immigration issue we have this is exactly what the Army have had to do already since privatising their recruitment to Capita, spent millions in going to commonwealth countries to recruit soldiers across all trades and then fast tracking their applications, visas and recruitment. Reason being they were failing so badly in hitting recruitment targets here in the UK, they were doing it so often the chiefs of staff actually had to bring a halt to commonwealth recruitment a few months back to make capita focus on homegrown recruitment.

I agree entirely immigration is controlled by economics in all industries.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you'll use Andrew Neil's interviews to form an opinion of one leader but don't want another leader to go on as you feel it would be a waste of time? You obviously watch them as you seem to comment on each one he does.
		
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I dont care one way or another if Boris decides to to an interview with AN anymore than any of the other leaders. I dont feel he's required to do it just because they have done it. I do watch them but I'd wager that 80% of the country voters don't bother to. By the way, I really dont need AN's help to form my opinion of Krankie, Corbyn, Swinson, Farage or Boris and nothing I've seen from the interviews so far have altered my views one jot.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn doesn't like the working classes, he likes the islington elite set, the middle class socialists that are driving his stormtrooper momentum brigade, mainly made up of state employed or retired who have never worked in the real world of business and industry but on the last bastions of trade union control. The working classes (what ever that means now) have been lied to and ignored because they tend to want to leave the EU as they don't see the benifits but are at the brunt end of the effects social engineering has hoisted on their lives. Its OK for these armchair socialists in their leafy suburban homes to suggest the proletariat unwashed with their uneducated and racist views dont know what's good for them but these views are starting to surface and be exposed for the high horse balderdash they are.
		
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Many of us from the 'working classes' do indeed (myself included) want Brexit... However, we also have many other concerns... None of which a Boris led team tory show any indication of seeking solutions let alone provide them...

As for racism, seems to me, the Labour group (quite rightly) are expected to wear their antisemitism badge with shame... Whilst the Tory group are almost encouraged to wear their islamophobic badge with honour...


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

Tory candidate Sally Ann Hart doing a lot to endear herself to her local constituency in Hastings and Rye, being filmed defending an article about disabled people should  be paid less as the don't understand money


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## drdel (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont care one way or another if Boris decides to to an interview with AN anymore than any of the other leaders. I dont feel he's required to do it just because they have done it. I do watch them but I'd wager that 80% of the country voters don't bother to. By the way, I really dont need AN's help to form my opinion of Krankie, Corbyn, Swinson, Farage or Boris and nothing I've seen from the interviews so far have altered my views one jot.
		
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Yup I agree. AN demonstrated his total arrogance and a sole desire to self promote. 

His style is rude and entirely based on continuous confrontation and interruption. His aggression is a simple technique intended to put his interviewee on the back-foot with no time to think or answer properly. 

He has decided that he is the BBC's royalty and everyone should bow to his 'court' : his 'empty chair' (IMO) was just a stupid stunt designed only to fill air-time in the media bubble that is largely ignored by the voters of the UK.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont care one way or another if Boris decides to to an interview with AN anymore than any of the other leaders. I dont feel he's required to do it just because they have done it. I do watch them but I'd wager that 80% of the country voters don't bother to. By the way, I really dont need AN's help to form my opinion of Krankie, Corbyn, Swinson, Farage or Boris and nothing I've seen from the interviews so far have altered my views one jot.
		
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I whole heartedly agree with this.

AN interview technique is to continually talk over his guest, come up with contrived hypothetical situations which he expects to be answered only how he wants it to be but then again speaks over the answer. His interviews don't give good factual content on subject matters they just serve his ego, this latest stunt is so self serving and I'd respect Boris or any leader more if they simply ignored it completely without giving it any air time.

For me Swinson and Farage have come out of the AN show better than others for simply not rolling over to his antics. None of his interviews have changed my opinion on any party or their leaders because the interviews have been more about AN than they actually have about proper political debate and questioning


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont care one way or another if Boris decides to to an interview with AN anymore than any of the other leaders. I dont feel he's required to do it just because they have done it. I do watch them but I'd wager that 80% of the country voters don't bother to. By the way, I really dont need AN's help to form my opinion of Krankie, Corbyn, Swinson, Farage or Boris and nothing I've seen from the interviews so far have altered my views one jot.
		
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In Johnson I see a blustering, disingenuous blowhard, and AN simply does not stand for waffle from those he is interviewing - and when he hears waffle or avoidance he stops them in their tracks - and that is what Johnson and his handlers are worried about and want to avoid - Johnson being exposed as an empty charlatan. 

If he is not and he is confident of his position, policies and arguments, then AN will be kept in his place and Johnson will demonstrate his clear vision and great leadership qualities.  Job done.  Worthy of our vote - as it is he - Johnson - for whom many Conservative votes will be cast in support of.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So Labour were in government in 2003-04 and worked to get it down to the much lower level it was at when the Conservatives came to power in 2010.

We know all about austerity and why the conservatives say it was essential - but austerity was a Conservative government choice - and it was the choice of the Conservatives where the cuts were made.  Lying about responsibility is not the same as not having any credibility.

Why is Javid saying what he is saying about homelessness since 2010 when it is simply not true.
		
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it is easy to have more money for services of all kinds when you are a government splurging cas and borrowing heavily in a strong and long econonomic boom when they should have been saving time for the inevitable downturn - and guess what, the downturn was a big one and left a catastophic mess for the conservatives who had no choice than to slash spending as there was no reduction in national debt from the boom years to cushion the downturn and 10% budget defecit


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			it is easy to have more money for services of all kinds when you are a government splurging cas and borrowing heavily in a strong and long econonomic boom when they should have been saving time for the inevitable downturn - and guess what, the downturn was a big one and left a catastophic mess for the conservatives who had no choice than to slash spending as there was no reduction in national debt from the boom years to cushion the downturn and 10% budget defecit
		
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The increase in homelessness since 2010 was under the Conservative Party government and was not helped by cuts in services made by the government.  The Labour PArty did not make the cuts.  The Conservative Party chose where to make the cuts (and they could have increased tax to compensate - but didn't).  Javid said the increase in homelessness was the fault of the Labour Party - that is simply not true.


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## HughJars (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see John Nicolson is not standing for the SNP.  Thought he was pretty good but a little too full of himself at times.
		
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 Ochil & South Perthshire seat


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

Leaked government NI documents show Johnson is telling serious lies about his 'tariff free zones'.
Document also predicts the very negative outcome that Brexit will have on NI, Wales and Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Ochil & South Perthshire seat
		
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Ah right - still think he can be a bit full of himself - he being an ex-TV presenter an' 'at.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In Johnson I see a blustering, disingenuous blowhard, and AN simply does not stand for waffle from those he is interviewing - and when he hears waffle or avoidance he stops them in their tracks - and that is what Johnson and his handlers are worried about and want to avoid - Johnson being exposed as an empty charlatan. 

If he is not and he is confident of his position, policies and arguments, then AN will be kept in his place and Johnson will demonstrate his clear vision and great leadership qualities.  Job done.  Worthy of our vote - as it is he - Johnson - for whom many Conservative votes will be cast in support of.
		
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We all know you think of Boris and on a golf forum with about 20 regular contributors to a thread, I dont think any of our opinions matter one jot to any of the others, and certainly I for one cant be arsed to argue with you. As far as I'm concerned you will never be swayed so there is little point in trying wheras at least Paul , Wolf and others have something of an open mind and will at least be convinced if a point is well made.

I for one will be very happy if Boris wins with a decent majority and we leave the EU on the 31st just to change your emphasis to the trade deal which, of course, will all be negative but will at least be something new to winge about


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In Johnson I see a blustering, disingenuous blowhard, and AN simply does not stand for waffle from those he is interviewing - and when he hears waffle or avoidance he stops them in their tracks - and that is what Johnson and his handlers are worried about and want to avoid - Johnson being exposed as an empty charlatan.

If he is not and he is confident of his position, policies and arguments, then AN will be kept in his place and Johnson will demonstrate his clear vision and great leadership qualities.  Job done.  Worthy of our vote - as it is he - Johnson - for whom many Conservative votes will be cast in support of.
		
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AN would have a field day with your waffling posts


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leaked government NI documents show Johnson is telling serious lies about his 'tariff free zones'.
Document also predicts the very negative outcome that Brexit will have on NI, Wales and Scotland.
		
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which if course is part of why he won't be subjected to scrutiny - all he would do would double down on his existing deceits and create more.  And it seems that - Trump-like - his core vote doesn't care about his deceits - they've decided to vote for him (via their Tory Party Candidate) on the basis of his _Getting Brexit Done_ promise regardless of what we might now understand about what that actually means and what Tory Paty policies might mean for them individually


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's to do with Javid as a minister of a Conservative government and as housing minister for a time in the last ten years.  It's to do with Javid as it is he who claimed that the current level of homelessness is down to the previous Labour government.

The level of homelessness that we have today is a lot greater than it was ten yrs ago when the Tory Party came to power.  And we know that austerity-related cuts have hit services that support those at risk of becoming homeless.  Austerity was/is Conservative Party policy and that policy will have had an impact on homelessness. Nowhere did I say that making any individual or group of individuals homeless was a Conservative Party policy.  However it is a FACT that homelessness has risen under the Tories - this is not the fault of the previous Labour government as Javid asserted.
		
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If you're blaming austerity (reduced borrowing) for homelessness then it is the fault of Browns government due to his borrowing and spending frenzy he created in the death throws of his government.     Now, please explain to me how people become homeless and how and what services prevent it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What’s all this “Dib Dob” stuff that people are posting on here?

Back in the 1960’s DYB DOB was a Scout chant meaning “Do Your Best- Do Our Best”

Now it seems to have been hijacked for political purposes or point scoring.
Which is a shame
		
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Its this #2Blue guy, he uses it as a silly put down but doesn't seem to understand its meaning.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which if course is part of why he won't be subjected to scrutiny - all he would do would double down on his existing deceits and create more.  And it seems that - Trump-like - *his core vote doesn't care about his deceits - they've decided to vote for him (via their Tory Party Candidate) on the basis of his Getting Brexit Done promise regardless of what we might now understand about what that actually means and what Tory Paty policies might mean for them individually*

Click to expand...

You really dont help yourself, perhaps and just try to imagine for a moment people are voting on policy/manifesto rather than their as you call lack of care about his deceit. Do i like Boris? No, has he been proven to lie? Yes. Does this bother me? Of course it does. However voting labour with their wing and a prayer manifesto that will cause huge economic ramifications for our nation, my family and thousands of other families being impacted by taxes even by not being a top 5% earner is simply a no go for me and thats based on that last line about party policies meaning individually.

Then theres the Tory party itself did they give us austerity of course they did but there was no other option avaialbe due to the spending of the previous Labour Party leadership which i voted for previously. However they failed  me as a voter hence why the Tories came to power. The current Tory manifesto has less social impact on my family l has several flaws as well that im not keen on, but does also promise to deliver the democratic vote people chose with leaving the EU (in which i voted to remain) so again whether i wanted remain or not i accept the democratic vote and we should leave the EU based on what people wanted. Is it Boris or Tory fault we havent left yet, not entirely as it was cross parliament decisions that have left us in this sorry state its a collective responsibility for all parties but again its easy to blame the ones in power with a blind lack of looking at facts.

Its easy in your blind dislike of Boris to state people are voting for him because they don't cate about his issues or past. Its also easy to throw the same tripe at any party leader like some are doing with Corbyn, Swinson, Farage and Sturgeon.

But perhaps you should try to consider people are actually intelligent enough to make their own decisions based on what is being proposed by each party despite the fact the leaders all have their own flaws, issues and have all been caught out telling some varying degrees of untruths. Because ultimately we don't get to choose the party leader but we do get to choose which party will lead us in the beliefs we have.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

The polite way to admit boris had lied again.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202895283916562432


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You really dont help yourself, perhaps and just try to imagine for a moment people are voting on policy/manifesto rather than their as you call lack of care about his deceit. Do i like Boris? No, has he been proven to lie? Yes. Does this bother me? Of course it does. However voting labour with their wing and a prayer manifesto that will cause huge economic ramifications for our nation, my family and thousands of other families being impacted by taxes even by not being a top 5% earner is simply a no go for me and thats based on that last line about party policies meaning individually.

Then theres the Tory party itself did they give us austerity of course they did but there was no other option avaialbe due to the spending of the previous Labour Party leadership which i voted for previously. However they failed  me as a voter hence why the Tories came to power. The current Tory manifesto has less social impact on my family l has several flaws as well that im not keen on, but does also promise to deliver the democratic vote people chose with leaving the EU (in which i voted to remain) so again whether i wanted remain or not i accept the democratic vote and we should leave the EU based on what people wanted. *Is it Boris or Tory fault we havent left yet*, not entirely as it was cross parliament decisions that have left us in this sorry state its a collective responsibility for all parties but again its easy to blame the ones in power with a blind lack of looking at facts.

Its easy in your blind dislike of Boris to state people are voting for him because they don't cate about his issues or past. Its also easy to throw the same tripe at any party leader like some are doing with Corbyn, Swinson, Farage and Sturgeon.

But perhaps you should try to consider people are actually intelligent enough to make their own decisions based on what is being proposed by each party despite the fact the leaders all have their own flaws, issues and have all been caught out telling some varying degrees of untruths. Because ultimately we don't get to choose the party leader but we do get to choose which party will lead us in the beliefs we have.
		
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Since 2015 up until now, 100% tory responsibility.

The facts are indisputable:
Cameron promises vote to stop ukip vote in GE.
Cameron calls vote.
Cameron loses - legs it.
Pause for tory leadership election.
TM wins, calls another GE for vanity purposes. - loses overall majority.
Propped up by bribing DUP
2 years of negotiations with no cross party involvement.
Loses vote on her deal 3 times, Tories (incl boris jrm etc vote against it)
She runs away
Another pause for tory leadership election.
boris gets deal, passes through 1st stage of parliament - won’t budge on 3 days discussion.
Calls GE.

Please explain how any other party controlled that.

And I voted Leave.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which if course is part of why he won't be subjected to scrutiny - all he would do would double down on his existing deceits and create more.  And it seems that - Trump-like - his core vote doesn't care about his deceits - they've decided to vote for him (via their Tory Party Candidate) on the basis of his _Getting Brexit Done_ promise regardless of what we might now understand about what that actually means and what Tory Paty policies might mean for them individually 

Click to expand...

You are so right about his core voters...….similar to Trump supporters when he said ...'I could shoot someone and they would still vote for me'
Scary situation where a once sensible middle England seem to be sleepwalking the UK into a serious crisis with a pretty obvious outcome.
I hope sanity will prevail but I have my doubts.


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## jp5 (Dec 6, 2019)

Yikes, think we found out why Johnson's handlers try to keep him out of the light. Referring to immigrants as "people of colour", in 2019? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202905450787823618


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are so right about his core voters...….similar to Trump supporters when he said ...'I could shoot someone and they would still vote for me'
Scary situation where a once sensible middle England seem to be sleepwalking the UK into a serious crisis with a pretty obvious outcome.
I hope sanity will prevail but I have my doubts.

Click to expand...

If your definition of sanity includes the words "Corbyn or Sturgeon" then I'd rather be sectioned under the mental health act.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The increase in homelessness since 2010 was under the Conservative Party government and was not helped by cuts in services made by the government.  The Labour PArty did not make the cuts.  The Conservative Party chose where to make the cuts (and they could have increased tax to compensate - but didn't).  Javid said the increase in homelessness was the fault of the Labour Party - that is simply not true.
		
Click to expand...

i am not specifically talking about homelessness but that cuts since 2009 have been fundamentally needed. We had the worst budget deficit in the developed world and risked a signifcant deterioration in our credit rating, which would have been very serious to the cost of servicing our huge budget deficit that we inherited from Labour, who mismanaged the good times in the huge economic expansion to 2008. Now if Gordon Brown would have been sensible and created budget surpluses in many of those years and made a big cut in the country's debt, the mess the torries inherited in 2010 could have been manged with a much lower reduction in government spending




That there was only two years of budget surplus under Labour until the 2008 Crisis is a disgrace (as was selling half our gold reserves in 1999 at $282/oz - a 20yr low - and the price rallied 7 fold over the next decade). The torries inherited a 10% budget defecit in 2010 - and the fact that we have done better in GDP than nearly all of Europe since the crisis despite a much worse fiscal situation starting point is testament to a decent job by a government in very challenging times. We are still borrowing money although substantially less - the more this goes on the more trouble for future generations. So i have no time for all this insesant ranting about Tory austerity as it was the only game in town. We are now in a different situation. We kept a good (AA) credit rating although we were inevitably downgraded from AAA. There is now scope to add a bit more borrowing for infrastructure-related growth initiates at very low rates and hopefully this will help drive growth and enable us to push borrowing into the black over the next few years. Personally, I would love the see us become the world leader in tdal power and support the schemes in Swansea and then the bigger one in Cardiff. We have a unique asset to leverage in tidal power that could spur growth and eventually lower energy prices. Anyway, that is digressing!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			We all know you think of Boris and on a golf forum with about 20 regular contributors to a thread, I dont think any of our opinions matter one jot to any of the others, and certainly I for one cant be arsed to argue with you. As far as I'm concerned you will never be swayed so there is little point in trying wheras at least Paul , Wolf and others have something of an open mind and will at least be convinced if a point is well made.

I for one will be very happy if Boris wins with a decent majority and we leave the EU on the 31st just to *change your emphasis to the trade deal which, of course, will all be negative *but will at least be something new to winge about
		
Click to expand...

No need for any negative discussion about the great comprehensive and deep deal that Javid, again, told us about yesterday - and that every government minister will given any chance tell us is within our grasp  - just before they tell us to vote for them to _Get Brexit Done.  _


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Who has the better record on the economy?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...re-better-than-labour-with-the-economy/19/11/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i am not specifically talking about homelessness but that cuts since 2009 have been fundamentally needed
		
Click to expand...

Yes - indeed - but I *am *talking about Javid claiming that it was *Labour* who are responsible for the homelessness.  And that is simply not true.  

Whatever other reasons there might be for the increase in homelessness since 2010 - it could not be anything _but _exacerbated by Conservative Party cuts due to *their *austerity programme.  I am not arguing whether the austerity programme was required or not - but cuts were made as a result of it - and at the same time homelessness has increased.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No need for any negative discussion about the great comprehensive and deep deal that Javid, again, told us about yesterday - and that every government minister will given any chance tell us is within our grasp  - just before they tell us to vote for them to _Get Brexit Done.  _

Click to expand...

Please let's not talk about the deal in advance, lets savour the moment 10 seconds after we leave 👍👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apparently the spin is he said 'people of talent'. Although even if he did say colour which it sounds like to me, we are now in Trump territory where he could say mostly anything and it would not make a blind bit of difference to 99.99% of Tory voters. As he's not Jeremy Corbyn and that is the standard he is mostly held to now it seems.
		
Click to expand...

I've just listened again and of course he said 'colour'...jeez - we have truly gone down the Trump rabbit-hole now that we are being told that what we heard is not what we heard.

But I listened again in case I got it wrong...and on a re-listen he may well have said 'talent'


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've just listened again and *of course he said 'colour'*...jeez - we have truly gone down the Trump rabbit-hole now that we are being told that what we heard is not what we heard.
		
Click to expand...

Don't know, suppose you can hear both talent and colour if you want to. Probably an interesting experiment in that if you see the word colour before, you hear colour, and if you see the word talent before you'd hear talent.

But I suppose it deflects from other statements he was making such as that we can now legislate to take away cruelty to animals, inferring that the EU legislates to be cruel to animals???


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Since 2015 up until now, 100% tory responsibility.

The facts are indisputable:
Cameron promises vote to stop ukip vote in GE.
Cameron calls vote.
Cameron loses - legs it.
Pause for tory leadership election.
TM wins, calls another GE for vanity purposes. - loses overall majority.
Propped up by bribing DUP
2 years of negotiations with no cross party involvement.
Loses vote on her deal 3 times, Tories (incl boris jrm etc vote against it)
She runs away
Another pause for tory leadership election.
boris gets deal, passes through 1st stage of parliament - won’t budge on 3 days discussion.
Calls GE.

Please explain how any other party controlled that.

And I voted Leave.
		
Click to expand...

Paul please don't misquote me.. You've conveniently hightlighted only one part of a full sentence to suit your argument. Which ironically you call everyone out on when they say anything against Corbyn but have done exactly the same thing to others each time they don't slate Tory or Boris.

Lets be quite clear on the full context of the sentence you conveniently only highlight the part which you wish you to jump on.




			Is it Boris or Tory fault we havent left yet, not entirely as it was cross parliament decisions that have left us in this sorry state its a collective responsibility for all parties but again its easy to blame the ones in power with a blind lack of looking at facts
		
Click to expand...

That clearly states its not entirely Boris or Tory fault, it does not state they dont have to bare some of the blame which of course they do any fool can see that, so don't treat me like one with your only high lighting part to suit you best.

To answer the rest of your post Cameron called the vote because people wanted it and he wrongly assumed he'd get a remain majority so there is a fault in his logic, as for running off sorry but the man stood down because he felt it was wrong  decision for the country so stuck to his belief and for that alone its actually commendable because for all his faults he was acknowledging he can't see it working and wasnt man for the job.

2 years of negotiations, what did you expect that it would happen quickly, we were warned in advance it will be long and drawn out. Thats just naive to pretend not to know or ignore it, should it have been quicker of course it should so yes there is a fault of the Tory party but with hindsight its easy to say that. 

As for no other parliamentary responsibility who do you think was for voting for or against the deals put forward, that wasnt the Tory party alone it was the entire house of commons all parties. Every deal put forward was voted down across the board as was no deal.

Then theres the Boris situation did he get a deal yes he did, what happens then, the HOC across all parties vote to bring in the Ben act so if Boris leaves he's breaking the law what did you expect the man to do.

All of the above is why the Tory Party isn't entirley responsible, do they have to accept their failures and larger part of it of course they do but ultimately for a deal to get done all of Parliament have to vote on it and every time something gets put forward it gets shut down. So again next time you quote something do it properly with actual context and not to suit your own agenda as that makes you no different to the JLM who you defend Corbyn against for twisting facts and words to suit personal agenda. Personally having debated things you previously I thought better of you but in this you've done nothing but suit your own bias without reading and commenting on something in its entirety.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't know, suppose you can hear both talent and colour if you want to. Probably an interesting experiment in that if you see the word colour before, you hear colour, and if you see the word talent before you'd hear talent.

But I suppose it deflects from other statements he was making such as that we can now legislate to take away cruelty to animals, inferring that the EU legislates to be cruel to animals???
		
Click to expand...

On re-listen I am pretty sure he said 'talent'

...and his stuff about controlling immigration as we have not been able to control it before...well yes - but maybe


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Paul please don't misquote me.. You've conveniently hightlighted only one part of a full sentence to suit your argument. Which ironically you call everyone out on when they say anything against Corbyn but have done exactly the same thing to others each time they don't slate Tory or Boris.

Lets be quite clear on the full context of the sentence you conveniently only highlight the part which you wish you to jump on.



That clearly states its not entirely Boris or Tory fault, it does not state they dont have to bare some of the blame which of course they do any fool can see that, so don't treat me like one with your only high lighting part to suit you best.

To answer the rest of your post Cameron called the vote because people wanted it and he wrongly assumed he'd get a remain majority so there is a fault in his logic, as for running off sorry but the man stood down because he felt it was wrong  decision for the country so stuck to his belief and for that alone its actually commendable because for all his faults he was acknowledging he can't see it working and wasnt man for the job.

2 years of negotiations, what did you expect that it would happen quickly, we weere warned in advance it will be ling and drawn out. Thats just naive to pretend not to know or ignore it, should it have been quicker of course it should so yes there is a fault of the Tory party but with hindsight its easy to say that.

As for no other parliamentary responsibility who do you think was for voting for or against the deals put forward, that wasnt the Tory party alone it was the entire house of commons all parties. Every deal put forward was voted down across the board as was no deal.

Then theres the Boris situation did he get a deal yes he did, what happens then, the HOC across all parties vote to bring in the Ben act so if Boris leaves he's breaking the law what did you expect the man to do.

All of the above is why the Tory Party isn't entirley responsible, do they have to accept their failures and large oart of it of course they do but ultimately for a deal to get done all of Parliament have to vote on it and every time something gets put forward it gets shut down. So again next time you quote something do it properly with actual context and not to suit your own agenda as that makes you no different to the JLM who you defend Corbyn against for twisting facts and words to suit personal agenda. Personally having debated things you previously I thought better of you but in this you've done nothing but suit your own bias without reading and commenting on something in its entirety.
		
Click to expand...

First off I didn’t misquote you, I highlighted that exact bit intentionally as that is bit I believe people are wrong on.
It’s also not an argument, I believe it was a discussion or a debate.

As for your response to my points:
Cameron/the tory party put it in their manifesto, no other party agreed we needed a referendum, it was self protection.

2 years to do the deal, you missed the point, I don’t care if it took 20 years, it’s the fact she acted alone, she never invited any other party to get their input, she lost negotiators through resignation etc it was a tory negotiation and the first time the rest of parliament got involved was when the deal appeared.

The tory party had a majority, if they’d of got their act together with the dup and voted as one, no other party mattered, their vote was irrelevant.

Point of clarity for you: boris’s deal passed stage 1 after the Benn act had happened, he’d asked for the extension, it was supported by mp’s from other parties.

Don’t accuse me of looking for an argument, I have spun nothing and just stated facts, if you don’t wish to discuss anything in future just be respectful and ask me not to reply to your posts.


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## drdel (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - indeed - but I *am *talking about Javid claiming that it was *Labour* who are responsible for the homelessness.  And that is simply not true.

Whatever other reasons there might be for the increase in homelessness since 2010 - it could not be anything _but _exacerbated by Conservative Party cuts due to *their *austerity programme.  I am not arguing whether the austerity programme was required or not - but cuts were made as a result of it - and at the same time homelessness has increased.
		
Click to expand...

Enjoy your belief that everything is caused by the party in power at the time. IMO you need to think rationally rather than emotionally about the time-lag between policies and their manifested effect - in terms of housing its about 5-10 years. Developers are hanging onto land; the number of single person homes has increased, population density. etc.etc.

The unavoidable fact is the previous Labour administration damaged the UK economy, the impact on housing started impacting well after they had been replaced. You can see evidence of this lag when the USA sub-prime lending caused their property prices to fall dramatically; the irresponsible 'lending and trading of loans' had started about 8 years earlier.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			First off I didn’t misquote you, I highlighted that exact bit intentionally as that is bit I believe people are wrong on.
It’s also not an argument, I believe it was a discussion or a debate.

As for your response to my points:
Cameron/the tory party put it in their manifesto, no other party agreed we needed a referendum, it was self protection.

2 years to do the deal, you missed the point, I don’t care if it took 20 years, it’s the fact she acted alone, she never invited any other party to get their input, she lost negotiators through resignation etc it was a tory negotiation and the first time the rest of parliament got involved was when the deal appeared.

The tory party had a majority, if they’d of got their act together with the dup and voted as one, no other party mattered, their vote was irrelevant.

Point of clarity for you: boris’s deal passed stage 1 after the Benn act had happened, he’d asked for the extension, it was supported by mp’s from other parties.

Don’t accuse me of looking for an argument, I have spun nothing and just stated facts, if you don’t wish to discuss anything in future just be respectful and ask me not to reply to your posts.
		
Click to expand...

You say highlighted bit you think oeiole are wrong on but thats change the fact only highlighting oart of a sentence doesn't give the context it was written in.

I havent missed the point of any part of your post I've answered exactly  what you wrote.

Did i accuse you of looking for an argunent no i said you highlighting only part suits your argument. By that i meant your stance in all this but if you read it as accusation then I can't accept fault for how you read it only for perhaps I could have used a better word.

I also never stated i didnt wish to discuss things in future i merely asked you quote in entirety as that would have been factual and not open to your own side of debate. I've not been disrespectful in what I wrote either, i merely responded to your post and that I felt only highlighting a fragment of a sentence showed lack of acknowledgement of what was actually written which youve pointed out to others on occasion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Enjoy your belief that everything is caused by the party in power at the time. IMO you need to think rationally rather than emotionally about the time-lag between policies and their manifested effect - in terms of housing its about 5-10 years. Developers are hanging onto land; the number of single person homes has increased, population density. etc.etc.

The unavoidable fact is the previous Labour administration damaged the UK economy, the impact on housing started impacting well after they had been replaced. You can see evidence of this lag when the USA sub-prime lending caused their property prices to fall dramatically; the irresponsible 'lending and trading of loans' had started about 8 years earlier.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I know - but the homelessness was not simply the fault of Labour.  There might be some joint responsibility - but that is not what Javid said - he blamed it all on Labour - no recognition and acceptance at all that Tory Party austerity measures may have exacerbated things.

Meanwhile Johnson on NI/rUK border controls.  Yes Prime Minster - we shouldn't listen to your NI Secretary; your Brexit Secretary, or the Treasury analysis revealed today - we should simply believe what you say.  You have nothing it seems, to back up your assertions as everyone else who might actually know disagrees.  No - we must believe you - the rest is Fake News - where's the rabbit hole?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You say highlighted bit you think oeiole are wrong on but thats change the fact only highlighting oart of a sentence doesn't give the context it was written in.

I havent missed the point of any part of your post I've answered exactly  what you wrote.

Did i accuse you of looking for an argunent no i said you highlighting only part suits your argument. By that i meant your stance in all this but if you read it as accusation then I can't accept fault for how you read it only for perhaps I could have used a better word.

I also never stated i didnt wish to discuss things in future i merely asked you quote in entirety as that would have been factual and not open to your own side of debate. I've not been disrespectful in what I wrote either, i merely responded to your post and that I felt only highlighting a fragment of a sentence showed lack of acknowledgement of what was actually written
		
Click to expand...

The context was my reply, I was trying to show why I believe we’ve been fed a pack lies covered by a smoke screen, an example of that is the Benn Act, he’d already got the extension when his deal was voted on.

Plenty of times words can be misunderstood when written down.
I had no intention of misquoting you or taken your words out of context.
I was highlighting one line that in my opinion the tory party have fed the media and the country to absolve themselves of any responsibility from why we had the referendum until the time the deal cane to the hoc.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The context was my reply, I was trying to show why I believe we’ve been fed a pack lies covered by a smoke screen, an example of that is the Benn Act, he’d already got the extension when his deal was voted on.

Plenty of times words can be misunderstood when written down.
I had no intention of misquoting you or taken your words out of context.
*I was highlighting one line that in my opinion the tory party have fed the media and the country to absolve themselves of any responsibility *from why we had the referendum until the time the deal cane to the hoc.
		
Click to expand...

Then clearly we've both been guilty of misinterpretation in this case. 

However that part there in bold sums up why i think you were wrong in only highlighting part of my sentence. You there in your own words state about them and one line to absolve themselves, because the rest of my sentence wasn't that one line nor did it absolve them of any guilt. 

Like i say we both clearly misinterpreted each other in some way, these things happen and we move on to the next debate as adults who are both happy to discuss this subject matter 👍


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2019)

Every time the debate returns to "It's all Labour's fault" I am always reminded of the biggest tory lie of all time "We are all in this together" ...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 6, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Yikes, think we found out why Johnson's handlers try to keep him out of the light. Referring to immigrants as "people of colour", in 2019? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202905450787823618

Click to expand...

Gross smear by Ch4, surprise surprise


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202924796792786947


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who has the better record on the economy?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...re-better-than-labour-with-the-economy/19/11/

Click to expand...

Oh yes, a very even-handed editorial. Looks like Labour have been the guardian angels of the ecconomy.  How wrong we have been and thanks for trawling out that unquestionable crock for our education.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes, a very even-handed editorial. Looks like Labour have been the guardian angels of the ecconomy.  How wrong we have been and thanks for trawling out that unquestionable crock for our education.
		
Click to expand...

Its amazing how good you could be with the economy when someone has sorted out your mess... No doubt some apologist will jump all over it and say something completely different.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes, a very even-handed editorial. Looks like Labour have been the guardian angels of the ecconomy.  How wrong we have been and thanks for trawling out that unquestionable crock for our education.
		
Click to expand...

Please see post #2272.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Rejected the claims in the report, then admits he hasn’t read it! 🤡


This could be the most significant leaked document of the campaign
http://news.sky.com/story/this-coul...cant-leaked-document-of-the-campaign-11879552


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please see post #2272.
		
Click to expand...

And whats that to do with anything?  It doesn't make you immune from having your posts commented on. It's not just you but a number of members who keep posting links to editorials that they think rubbishes the Conservatives, most of them are just biased editorials that give someone else's subjective opinions, its just a lazy way of debating a subject, anyone can trawl the net and find some link to an editorial that supports their view, whatever it is. If you post a link then use it to support some of your own thoughts on a subject.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And whats that to do with anything?  It doesn't make you immune from having your posts commented on. It's not just you but a number of members who keep posting links to editorials that they think rubbishes the Conservatives, most of them are just biased editorials that give someone else's subjective opinions, its just a lazy way of debating a subject, anyone can trawl the net and find some link to an editorial that supports their view, whatever it is. If you post a link then use it to support some of your own thoughts on a subject.
		
Click to expand...

Would suggest both sides of the debate could be accused of laziness by posting biased editorials with no or little added comment...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rejected the claims in the report, then admits he hasn’t read it! 🤡


This could be the most significant leaked document of the campaign
http://news.sky.com/story/this-coul...cant-leaked-document-of-the-campaign-11879552

Click to expand...

First, how can Corbyn make a 'restricted doccument'  public without infringing the secrets act.
Second, the text he is using is full of 'may' 'likely to' and 'could'
Lets give the Government a chance to comment before wetting ourselves with excitement 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Would suggest both sides of the debate could be accused of laziness by posting biased editorials with no or little added comment...
		
Click to expand...

I agree, its lazy whoever uses it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

800,000 more people have watched Neil's challenge to the cowardly Johnson than watched Neil's actual interview with Corbyn.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			800,000 more people have watched Neil's challenge to the cowardly Johnson than watched Neil's actual interview with Corbyn.

Click to expand...


........... and?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2019)

The big interview....

AN... What are going to do about the rising number of stabbings?
BJ... It's all Labour's fault.
AN... We will take that as a given. But, what are you intentending to do about it?
BJ... Let's get Brexit done!

Rinse and repeat for any other relevant questions the electorate would like a response for...


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And whats that to do with anything?  It doesn't make you immune from having your posts commented on. It's not just you but a number of members who keep posting links to editorials that they think rubbishes the Conservatives, most of them are just biased editorials that give someone else's subjective opinions, its just a lazy way of debating a subject, anyone can trawl the net and find some link to an editorial that supports their view, whatever it is. If you post a link then use it to support some of your own thoughts on a subject.
		
Click to expand...

See post #3063


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			First, how can Corbyn make a 'restricted doccument'  public without infringing the secrets act.
Second, the text he is using is full of 'may' 'likely to' and 'could'
Lets give the Government a chance to comment before wetting ourselves with excitement 🙄
		
Click to expand...

See post #3063


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			........... and?
		
Click to expand...

I shall make it easy, If Johnson had actually engaged with Neil less folk would have known that he was such a fearty.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			See post #3063
		
Click to expand...

See post #3065


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I shall make it easy, If Johnson had actually engaged with Neil less folk would have known that he was such a fearty.
		
Click to expand...

Dont bother making it easy. Just because your leader was stupid there little need for Boris to follow suit.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 6, 2019)

I've a feeling the debate on TV later will get quite nasty. Luckily there is some rugby on the watch instead.


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2019)

What’s the betting on the great unwashed/fib dems and wee Jimmie krankie going to court if the result doesn’t go their way


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			First, how can Corbyn make a 'restricted doccument'  public without infringing the secrets act.
Second, the text he is using is full of 'may' 'likely to' and 'could'
Lets give the Government a chance to comment before wetting ourselves with excitement 🙄
		
Click to expand...

...and when the Treasury analysis is found to be valid and that Johnson is telling lies...?  No doubt some will still find some 'whatabootery' to try and deflect, and find some excuses for the charlatan...it's utterly depressing...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			What’s the betting on the great unwashed/fib dems and wee Jimmie krankie going to court if the result doesn’t go their way
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine they're are a few more twists in this fiasco.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Dont bother making it easy. Just because your leader was stupid there little need for Boris to follow suit.
		
Click to expand...

Aye and Johnson is not looking scared stupid. People finally seeing him for what he really is.
Tory's hiding all their 'big hitters' like Gove and Rees-Mog because they know the more the public see of them the less likely they are to vote Tory Sad state of affairs.

Stop making desperately poor deflected excuses for Johnson's behaviour, he is just frightened of not being able to give honest answers Neil's questions.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye and Johnson is not looking scared stupid. People finally seeing him for what he really is.
Tory's hiding all their 'big hitters' like Gove and Rees-Mog because they know the more the public see of them the less likely they are to vote Tory Sad state of affairs.

Stop making desperately poor deflected excuses for Johnson's behaviour, he is just frightened of not being able to give honest answers Neil's questions.
		
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I'm not in the least bit interested in making excuses for anyone. Johnson doesnt have to be interviewed by AN and I dont see anyone switching their allegiance to another party in protest that he hasn't. As before, your leader tried it and looked a complete wassock- are you going to switch your vote as a result?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and when the Treasury analysis is found to be valid and that Johnson is telling lies...?  No doubt some will still find some 'whatabootery' to try and deflect, and find some excuses for the charlatan...it's utterly depressing...
		
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You seem rather certain about that, have you been given a preview?    It's probably another damp squid just like the last attempt that failed spectacularly.   Lets see shall we 🙄


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Is a half truth a half lie?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-12-06/senior-diplomat-quits-over-governments-brexit-half-truths/


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

Shock and Horror if Jezzer wins.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliver...e-uk-if-labour-win-the-election/#4fc35a635e57
Watch this space, more lazy posts coming your way.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is a half truth a half lie?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-12-06/senior-diplomat-quits-over-governments-brexit-half-truths/

Click to expand...

That’s pretty damming, but not a surprise.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shock and Horror if Jezzer wins.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliver...e-uk-if-labour-win-the-election/#4fc35a635e57
Watch this space, more lazy posts coming your way.
		
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Not really helping your argument.. billionaires leaving because they are going to have to stop taking money for nothing? Boo hoo they have made excessive profit and avoided paying tax, who cares if they leave they still have UK operations which can be targeted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s pretty damming, but not a surprise.
		
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It’ll spun and denied, then deflected on to every other party probably under the excuse that the HoC’s have delayed the will of the people blah blah blah for 3 years etc.


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really helping your argument.. billionaires leaving because they are going to have to stop taking money for nothing? Boo hoo they have made excessive profit and avoided paying tax, who cares if they leave they still have UK operations which can be targeted.
		
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If JC were to come up with the surprise of the century and win the GE he'd certainly care as his funding for the spending plans come from those very billionaires, and Andrew Neil pointed out to him that there aren't many billionaires so if a few left the country it would wreck JC's tax grab


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If JC were to come up with the surprise of the century and win the GE he'd certainly care as his funding for the spending plans come from those very billionaires, and Andrew Neil pointed out to him that there aren't many billionaires so if a few left the country it would wreck JC's tax grab
		
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They are not the key contributors to pay .. there are organisations that are profiting from operating in the U.K. but not paying their tax contribution


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are not the key contributors to pay .. there are organisations that are profiting from operating in the U.K. but not paying their tax contribution
		
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And basically there's nothing that Corbyn or any British politician can do about it. 

What these companies are doing is not  illegal and if we tried to act unilaterally they can, for tax purposes, operate elsewhere. 

This requires all countries to act together and there does not appear to be any overall will to do so.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			And basically there's nothing that Corbyn or any British politician can do about it.

What these companies are doing is not  illegal and if we tried to act unilaterally they can, for tax purposes, operate elsewhere.

This requires all countries to act together and there does not appear to be any overall will to do so.
		
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Just shut them out of their market ... stuff competition regulations they will comply when their profits are hit.


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just shut them out of their market ... stuff competition regulations they will comply when their profits are hit.
		
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Good luck with that 😂🤣🤡


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just shut them out of their market ... stuff competition regulations they will comply when their profits are hit.
		
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I bet you still believe in Santa!

Our Government would be wrapped up in legal actions that would make Brexit seem as easy as a WI meeting. 

In addition plenty of other countries would be only too happy to benefit from our problems.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really helping your argument.. billionaires leaving because they are going to have to stop taking money for nothing? Boo hoo they have made excessive profit and avoided paying tax, who cares if they leave they still have UK operations which can be targeted.
		
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yes thats right, im just posting lazy links that are some twazzocks opinion


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I bet you still believe in Santa!

Our Government would be wrapped up in legal actions that would make Brexit seem as easy as a WI meeting.

In addition plenty of other countries would be only too happy to benefit from our problems.
		
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It would be easier than Brexit .. do the due diligence get the strategy right and it can be done. 
To be honest Brexit is the dumbest idea out and there are apparently 17.4million people willing to do it. Yet you seem to think taking on big conglomerates that want to sell in the U.K. and make a profit is harder? Really ? Is that because the newspapers told you so? 
This is more about taking ownership of our country than Brexit. But it will be breaking a few eggs that have a lot of money.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2019)

Sort of enjoyed that debate, neither landed any knockout blows, thought boris came out on top when discussing the NHS, Corbyn when discussing security.
Showed more than anything that both needed more scrutiny and nailing down on some of the issues, but the format and time restraints didn’t allow it.
Not sure if an hour on 2 or 3 questions only rather than 7 or 8 questions would be better.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It would be easier than Brexit .. do the due diligence get the strategy right and it can be done.
To be honest Brexit is the dumbest idea out and there are apparently 17.4million people willing to do it. Yet you seem to think taking on big conglomerates that want to sell in the U.K. and make a profit is harder? Really ? Is that because the newspapers told you so?
This is more about taking ownership of our country than Brexit. But it will be breaking a few eggs that have a lot of money.
		
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If you truly believe that it would be so easy then fine, I cannot see much point in discussing it further.

However, this is not a new problem so I won


harpo_72 said:



			It would be easier than Brexit .. do the due diligence get the strategy right and it can be done.
To be honest Brexit is the dumbest idea out and there are apparently 17.4million people willing to do it. Yet you seem to think taking on big conglomerates that want to sell in the U.K. and make a profit is harder? Really ? Is that because the newspapers told you so?
This is more about taking ownership of our country than Brexit. But it will be breaking a few eggs that have a lot of money.
		
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If that's what you truly believe then not much point in discussing it further. 

But as it is not a new problem yet apparently so easy to resolve I wonder why Labour didn't address it between 1997 and 2010.

Obviously you will say that the Tories don't wish to but was there no will on the part of Messrs Blair and Brown?

By the way, how are we going to get the rest of the world to fall in line?

This is a global problem requiring a  global solution.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			If you truly believe that it would be so easy then fine, I cannot see much point in discussing it further.

However, this is not a new problem so I won


If that's what you truly believe then not much point in discussing it further.

But as it is not a new problem yet apparently so easy to resolve I wonder why Labour didn't address it between 1997 and 2010.

Obviously you will say that the Tories don't wish to but was there no will on the part of Messrs Blair and Brown?

By the way, how are we going to get the rest of the world to fall in line?

This is a global problem requiring a  global solution.
		
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Why are you bothering to put other points across if you think your right? 
Is there any point me replying to those, nah not really.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2019)

Tommy Robinson is endorsing Johnson's Tories
John Major is not.
That is were we are folks.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tommy Robinson is endorsing Johnson's Tories
John Major is not.
That is were we are folks.

Click to expand...

That matters because?


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tommy Robinson is endorsing Johnson's Tories
John Major is not.
That is were we are folks.

Click to expand...

Let's be honest here Doon if he backs Boris then people like you moan, if he backed Corbyn others or even you would say something then because he is backing a party with antisemitic issues.

Tommy Robinson is nothing more than dreg of society and nobody with half a morsal of intelligence cares who he backs because they know he's a bell end and can make their own minds up.

As for John Major again who cares his time is truly past and someone that thought good judgement was to shag Edwina Curry shouldn't be listened to. But equally you could have also been a little more balanced with that post by also mentioning the  fact Tony Blair has said he is urging people not to vote for Corbyn.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Why are you bothering to put other points across if you think your right?
Is there any point me replying to those, nah not really.
		
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Of course not, as you don't appear to have any answers.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Mr Robinson is a convicted thug who is a complete racist .. he backs the Tories

Yet a life long Tory who is pretty well respected does not back his own party ..

That's pretty damming
		
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What if he'd backed  labour with all there antisetism issues it doesn't matter who he backs the other side will state its damming. Tommy Robinson is not someone people with intelligence will listen to.

As for Major is it damming perhaps, but as I point out above Blair has done the same thing urging people not to vote Labour. Also damming would you not agree then.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2019)

Wolf said:



			What if he'd backed  labour with all there antisetism issues it doesn't matter who he backs the other side will state its damming. Tommy Robinson is not someone people with intelligence will listen to.

As for Major is it damming perhaps, but as I point out above Blair has done the same thing urging people not to vote Labour. Also damming would you not agree then.
		
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Every party has idiot supporters. Ken Livingstone has some great tweets running.


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## Wolf (Dec 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Every party has idiot supporters. Ken Livingstone has some great tweets running.
		
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Just like the vacuous Lily Allen.. See she replied to a tweet earlier where someone asked how is it possible there are 400 billionaires, her reply was because everyone keeps voting Conservative... Yes Lily clearly all those 400 billionaires made that money purely since Tories came into power in 2010 and had nothing under previous regimes did they 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 7, 2019)

I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any, 

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍


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## ger147 (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any,

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
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At least 1 person has switched sides, Paul is nailed on to vote Tory this time is he not?


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any,

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
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In the run up to the Brexit referendum the discussion in here, and a lot of research on the back of the discussion points in here led me to change my voting intention. The Brexit thread has confirmed that I made the right choice for me.

The debate in recent weeks, along with the performances of the political parties has led me to change my voting intention.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



*I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election*

My guess that it will not be many, if any,

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
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I change on a regular basis depending on the candidate and the parties current manifestos. I know you said 'since the last election' which is a short time span so fewer are likely to have changed, but I have voted for at least 5 parties over my voting lifetime in general and local elections. And it's completely feasible that that may rise to 6 in this one as Soubry is standing where I am for the Tiggers. Individuals, society and especially now parties all change over time, so I see no reason why someones voting intentions should not.  Pretty sure I voted for the tories back in the 80s I think.  And if they would have elected Rory Stewart as leader, promoted the more one nation tories and expelled the UKIPy ones, instead of doing the opposite, then who knows this time.

You could argue the Blair's Labour party is closer to Majors Tories than it is to Corbyn's Labour party.  And vice versa, Majors is closer to Blair's than Boris's.  I'd even argue Boris's current incarnation is closer to UKIP as was, than it is to Majors Tories.   To be honest if people just vote the same every time no matter what is happening in the world or who is in charge of the party then that is the kind of uncritical analysis they rely on. And the 'see/hear no evil' approach to me is part of the reason we are where we are in such a divided nation with a poor set of politicians.

And I will have to change my voting intention this time as the party I voted for last time is not fielding a candidate this time. Admittedly seeing people trying to justify Boris's cowardice in avoiding interviews when you know god damn well if it was Corbyn avoiding them they'd be all over it constantly, isn't going to convince me to vote Tory.  But at least this thread has helped me rule out a few options this time.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any, 

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
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We were looking into this yesterday , my vote is meaningless

Tory strong hold and heavy Brexit area .. you would need a massive swing to have any form of change .

6 doors away the lines change into a heavy labour area.

Tactical voting the way forward


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We were looking into this yesterday , *my vote is meaningless*

Tory strong hold and heavy Brexit area .. you would need a massive swing to have any form of change .

6 doors away the lines change into a heavy labour area.

Tactical voting the way forward
		
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I'd always argue any vote is not meaningless as a reduced majority still sends a message. Good point about tactical voting as I think that is a lot more prominent this time around so may well change more peoples voting intentions than usual.

Unfortunately latest analysis says that the lib dems will gain some votes from the tories but not enough to turn seats from tory to lib dem.  Where as the tories will gain some votes from labour which will be enough to turn seats and give them a majority. So although the number of votes cast for the parties will stay much the same, the constituencies where the votes are gained or lost and which will flip will work in the tories favour. Although in the interests of fairness I appreciate some may see that as good news.


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any,

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
Click to expand...

I’d potentially argue that this time round has seen a huge shift in where people are potentially placing their vote. This thread and discussion has been quite interesting I think and has highlighted some areas I may potentially have not looked at. 

I’ve seen so many people changing votes through my social media feeds alone, sadly in some cases it’s due to believing propaganda imagery and half truths instead of being based on manifesto. That being said I do know others that have changed based on policy and have decided to vote Labour, Tory & Lib Dem’s respectively. 

I also think this thread and the GE build up will have more people potentially voting for independant candidates in local areas due to lack of trust in the main contenders and thus tactical voting will be at its highest ever rate.

As for my own vote it has indeed changed not on the basis of this thread but it has helped me form my opinion, but on the manifesto and pledges put forward.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 7, 2019)

Good stuff, nice to see some proper debate and thought out opinions compared to the normal scaremongering arguments down party lines.

I haven’t changed my opinion, I don’t like Johnson, but I like Corbyn even less,


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## Imurg (Dec 7, 2019)

Would my ballot paper be classed as spoiled if I present it with a hole in it?
Considering chucking a dart at it and putting my X where it lands....
Mind you, there's only 4 on the list so I could miss altogether....


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## pauljames87 (Dec 7, 2019)

BBC fact checker can be very annoying
How about you have someone fact checking during the debate and put it on the screen so people can see?


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good stuff, nice to see some proper debate and thought out opinions compared to the normal scaremongering arguments down party lines.

I *haven’t changed my opinion, I don’t like Johnson, but I like Corbyn even less*,
		
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I agree I don’t particularly like Boris and the Tory manifesto pretty much promises not a lot other than Brexit. Can’t stand Corbyn and the Labour pledges are up there with Fairy tales the likes of a Walt Disney wouldn’t even put into film.  My vote won’t find either or their parties on my ballot paper.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good stuff, nice to see some proper debate and thought out opinions compared to the normal scaremongering arguments down party lines.

I haven’t changed my opinion, I don’t like Johnson, but I like Corbyn even less,
		
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So you're voting Lib Dem then.  Good man.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

Tactical voting will be huge in Scotland, so many options.
Pro Unionist/anti Brexit
Pro Unionist/Brexit anti SNP
Pro Indy/anti Brexit
Pro Indy/anti SNP
Pro Scots Tory or Scots Labour anti Corbyn or Johnson and vice versa.
Nothing is nailed down and we could see some big surprises.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

This sums it up perfectly, who is the least worst choice.
|f the Lib dems had backed a second referendum/peoples vote rather than going all in, I wonder if the picture would be different.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

Even Gardiner struggles to name anyone who would back a labour leave deal and the 2 he's names are staunch leavers !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203077262687580160


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

Good 'toon from Chris Cairns, sums up most UK political parties quite nicely
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Img421.jpg


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

More spending :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50691088


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

I would normally vote labour, but given my area which is Tory at present, liberal close 2nd, and it was a 50.3% leave area, I will vote liberal. 

And who said Santa doesn’t exist? Surely then all the other people we have not ever seen don’t exist as well??


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I would be interested if anyone on here has changed their voting intentions since the last election

My guess that it will not be many, if any, 

Therefore the guff that has been spouted in these pages over the last 6 weeks has been a complete and utter waste of time.

However it has diverted attention away from the Brexit and footy threads 👍
		
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Last time round there were no independents on my ballot paper... So I scrawled "None of the above" across the bottom... This time round I have a choice between two worthy independents one of which will get my vote...

Shame is, both the Tory and Lib/Dem candidates are also worthy of my vote but neither will get it due their respective party leaders...


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2019)

I wonder how many voters entirely focus on the party leader.

Surely since we have 600 MPs and a large cabinet the basis of voting should be on the national policy issues and whether the local candidate will also deliver on the local issues. I agree the 'leaders' can set a tone but, as far as I am concerned, like company chairpersons, they are largely figure heads and, in politics, useful media idiots. On the world stage most of the actual work is done by the Civil Service, Xparty Committees and individual ministers and that's also largely true for domestic issues with Local Authorities added in the mix.

So surely voting based on the figurehead or not voting is just a cop out of the rational responsibilities of citizenship.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I wonder how many voters entirely focus on the party leader.

Surely since we have 600 MPs and a large cabinet the basis of voting should be on the national policy issues and whether the local candidate will also deliver on the local issues. I agree the 'leaders' can set a tone but, as far as I am concerned, like company chairpersons, they are largely figure heads and, in politics, useful media idiots. On the world stage most of the actual work is done by the Civil Service, Xparty Committees and individual ministers and that's also largely true for domestic issues with Local Authorities added in the mix.

Surely not voting is just a cop out of the responsibilities of citizenship.
		
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Totally agree, thankfully I have a decent area MP (imo) to vote for, his party doesn’t get my vote in By-Elections however as our “Independents” are very good at local level and don’t stand in the GE’s, otherwise I’d be sticking with them.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

drdel said:



*I wonder how many voters entirely focus on the party leader.*

Surely since we have 600 MPs and a large cabinet the basis of voting should be on the national policy issues and whether the local candidate will also deliver on the local issues. I agree the 'leaders' can set a tone but, as far as I am concerned, like company chairpersons, they are largely figure heads and, in politics, useful media idiots. On the world stage most of the actual work is done by the Civil Service, Xparty Committees and individual ministers and that's also largely true for domestic issues with Local Authorities added in the mix.

So surely voting based on the figurehead or not voting is just a cop out of the rational responsibilities of citizenship.
		
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May be very few focus exclusively on the party leader.  But the number of times Dianne Abbott appears in this thread or indeed leading members of the Tory Cabinet means that the leader does shape the key positions in their image more and more and that is a big factor. Personally I'd worry less if Boris had a more competent senior leadership team behind him, but to be honest some of them scare me even more than he does at times.  And I'm sure others would say the same for Abbott/McDonald etc.

Also I feel increasingly more of the MPs for the leading parties have to conform to the current brand of ideology in that party and there is less and less room for any that do not.  An example being that all Tory MPs are signed up to the Brexit deal now. Any form of deviation of dissent seems to be increasingly eradicated.


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			May be very few focus exclusively on the party leader.  But the number of times Dianne Abbott appears in this thread or indeed leading members of the Tory Cabinet means that the leader does shape the key positions in their image more and more and that is a big factor. Personally I'd worry less if Boris had a more competent senior leadership team behind him, but to be honest some of them scare me even more than he does at times.  And I'm sure others would say the same for Abbott/McDonald etc.

Also I feel increasingly more of the MPs for the leading parties have to conform to the current brand of ideology in that party and there is less and less room for any that do not.  An example being that all Tory MPs are signed up to the Brexit deal now. Any form of deviation of dissent seems to be increasingly eradicated.
		
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True. I wonder how long Corbyn, Johnson or Swinson would be leaders because we the public do not have a direct input to their replacements. 

On the Tory demands their MPs support Brexit, at least that was a public decision.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2019)

Went to a pit reunion last night. 200 lads there at night time. 70 retired old lads during the day. Talk was centred around lads who had died through the last year, pensions and the general election. Very Suprised how nigh on everyone said there was no way they were voting for Labour. The same reason was given. Jeremy Corbyn. There were about a dozen of us talking and one of the lads hit the nail firmly on the head. He said " I have not left Labour, Labour have left me". The silence was deafening. I could not put it better. I feel millions of voters feel the same way that Labour have lost there way.
Bottom line, we will be stuck with a woeful Tory Government.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

Can you Labour switch away from the left even if McDonald and Corbyn go ? (assuming they stick to their word and stand down if they don't get into power).


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Can you Labour switch away from the left even if McDonald and Corbyn go ? (assuming they stick to their word and stand down if they don't get into power).
		
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It's a small step in the right direction.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Can you Labour switch away from the left even if McDonald and Corbyn go ? (assuming they stick to their word and stand down if they don't get into power).
		
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It needs to get folk with experience of working at the metaphorical coal face back at the top table...


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 7, 2019)

I agree Labour have gone too far to the left and have lost their focus.

People simply don’t trust Corbyn or Macdonald, now if they had a more centrist leader, say Kier Starmer, and a less radical/ more believable manifesto, then they would be wiping the floor with everybody else.

Tell me I’m wrong


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

Johnson too afraid to attend his own hustings now.
What a whimp.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I agree Labour have gone too far to the left and have lost their focus.

People simply don’t trust Corbyn or Macdonald, now if they had a more centrist leader, say Kier Starmer, and a less radical/ more believable manifesto, then they would be wiping the floor with everybody else.

Tell me I’m wrong
		
Click to expand...

You're not wrong


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## jp5 (Dec 7, 2019)

Nah, would be the same with whoever is in charge of Labour. Until Brexit is out of the way in a few decade's time, anyway.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I agree Labour have gone too far to the left and have lost their focus.

People simply don’t trust Corbyn or Macdonald, now if they had a more centrist leader, say Kier Starmer, and a less radical/ more believable manifesto, then they would be wiping the floor with everybody else.

Tell me I’m wrong
		
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I don't think you're wrong, but I can't see how they regain control. If Brexit goes ahead will the torys be able to move back to a more central position too or will trade negotiations scupper that ?
I hope that trade talks will become a cross party affair but they have to get a major it y first and then hope corbyn sticks to his promise.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Went to a pit reunion last night. 200 lads there at night time. 70 retired old lads during the day. Talk was centred around lads who had died through the last year, pensions and the general election. Very Suprised how nigh on everyone said there was no way they were voting for Labour. The same reason was given. Jeremy Corbyn. There were about a dozen of us talking and one of the lads hit the nail firmly on the head. He said " I have not left Labour, Labour have left me". The silence was deafening. I could not put it better. I feel millions of voters feel the same way that Labour have lost there way.
Bottom line, we will be stuck with a woeful Tory Government.
		
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It’s sad that so many people haven’t got a clue and believe the propaganda against Corbyn and Labour and it will consign us to another period of the Tories destroying the working class.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It’s sad that so many people haven’t got a clue and believe the propaganda against Corbyn and Labour and it will consign us to another period of the Tories destroying the working class.
		
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i think people are well versed on what an appaling politician and human being Corbyn is. For the leader of the opposition to have the most appalling ratings going into an election agaisnt someone as divisive as Borris sums it up - Corbyn should not even be allowed to be in the running as he is not fit to be a local councillior let alone someone that could be leading our country into ruin!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I agree Labour have gone too far to the left and have lost their focus.

People simply don’t trust Corbyn or Macdonald, now if they had a more centrist leader, say Kier Starmer, and a less radical/ more believable manifesto, *then they would be wiping the floor with everybody else.*

*Tell me I’m wrong*

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Don't think they would be wiping the floor as Brexit has infected our politics too much now, but they'd have more of a fighting chance at getting some form of majority.  Where as the best they can currently hope for is a monitory government propped up by the rest of the parties.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



*i think people are well versed on what an appaling politician and human being Corbyn is*. For the leader of the opposition to have the most appalling ratings going into an election agaisnt someone as divisive as Borris sums it up - Corbyn should not even be allowed to be in the running as he is not fit to be a local councillior let alone someone that could be leading our country into ruin!
		
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Depends on what papers they read and who they follow on social media.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i think people are well versed on what an appaling politician and human being Corbyn is. For the leader of the opposition to have the most appalling ratings going into an election agaisnt someone as divisive as Borris sums it up - Corbyn should not even be allowed to be in the running as he is not fit to be a local councillior let alone someone that could be leading our country.
		
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Ah, so you read the Daily Mail, eh? So utterly brainwashed.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Ah, so you read the Daily Mail, eh? So utterly brainwashed.
		
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it doesn't matter what i read or what bias is on it - i make my mind up on the facts and listening to the words of this appalling excuse for a politician. The Labour party led by these lunatics are unelectable by many life-long labour supporters. Hopefully this election will consign them to history and a credible centre-leaning economically competent opposition can emerge


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## louise_a (Dec 7, 2019)

it is strange that people say they wont vote labour because they have gone too far to the left, but apparently people  have no problem voting tory even though they have gone too far to the right.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

louise_a said:



			it is strange that people say they wont vote labour because they have gone too far to the left, but apparently people  have no problem voting tory even though they have gone too far to the right.
		
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And their lies the irony of it all. Or it’s just more acceptable to be right wing?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

louise_a said:



			it is strange that people say they wont vote labour because they have gone too far to the left, *but apparently people  have no problem voting tory even though they have gone too far to the right*.
		
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Some may argue they are comfortable, indeed positively excited about how far right they have gone.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

Work of comic genius in my opinion, kind of skewers all parties but of course especially as it's the Guardian, the Tories.  Some of the one liners are inspired.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-countdown-praying-prorogue-next-parliament


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i think people are well versed on what an appaling politician and *human being Corbyn is.* For the leader of the opposition to have the most appalling ratings going into an election agaisnt someone as divisive as Borris sums it up - Corbyn should not even be allowed to be in the running as he is not fit to be a local councillior let alone someone that could be leading our country into ruin!
		
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Didn’t Corbyn recently win some prestigious peace award ? 

People may not agree with his policies and have different ideas than him but “appalling human being” ?!? - aren’t we all starting to go over the top now in regards him. 

And as for being unfit to be a councillor- the main has held down his seat as an MP for decades has he not ? 

Whilst I’m not a fan of him because of his views on the defence of the nation and wouldn’t trust him IMO the social media campaign against him has been horrific to the point of so many lies and fake news but people have believed it.
Yep he is certainly to the left but what has he actually done that is so damaging that he deserves to be called an “appalling human being “


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			it doesn't matter what i read or what bias is on it - i make my mind up on the facts and listening to the words of this appalling excuse for a politician. The Labour party led by these lunatics are unelectable by many life-long labour supporters. Hopefully this election will consign them to history and a credible centre-leaning economically competent opposition can emerge
		
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That’s a yes then. Enough said. Haters gonna hate.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

louise_a said:



			it is strange that people say they wont vote labour because they have gone too far to the left, but apparently people  have no problem voting tory even though they have gone too far to the right.
		
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i disagree with this - the manifesto is very one-nation and centrist wiith lots of increased spending - what elements do you see to back up they have gone hard right as i cannot see any?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			That’s a yes then. Enough said. Haters gonna hate.
		
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you make so little sense it is not worth bothering with but i read what i read and make my own mind up on the facts not the slant of any publication


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i disagree with this - the manifesto is very one-nation and centrist *wiith lots of increased spending* - what elements do you see to back up they have gone hard right as i cannot see any?
		
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I think Beelzebub himself, as you seem to think he is, has the Tories beat on increased spending if that's your bag baby.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

louise_a said:



			it is strange that people say they wont vote labour because they have gone too far to the left, but apparently people  have no problem voting tory even though they have gone too far to the right.
		
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I’m not sure what happened to humanity when being left wing was considered bad and being right wing was good. 

So it’s empathy, caring, supportive and generally being a decent person or it’s being selfish, profit driven, happy to walk over everyone else and complete lack of caring for the suffering of others. 

Erm?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn’t Corbyn recently win some prestigious peace award ?

People may not agree with his policies and have different ideas than him but “appalling human being” ?!? - aren’t we all starting to go over the top now in regards him.

And as for being unfit to be a councillor- the main has held down his seat as an MP for decades has he not ?

Whilst I’m not a fan of him because of his views on the defence of the nation and wouldn’t trust him IMO the social media campaign against him has been horrific to the point of so many lies and fake news but people have believed it.
Yep he is certainly to the left but what has he actually done that is so damaging that he deserves to be called an “appalling human being “
		
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ok Phil - maybe an appaling human being is too strong - but an appalling politician, with appalling leadsership, appalling and clueless economic principles, unsafe to be in charge of the military, plenty of form of not only not dealing with anti semitic behaviour but tollerating it and yet claiming there is no problem/ the problem has been dealt with etc when it plainly has not - backing the IRA against this country etc etc.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you make so little sense it is not worth bothering with but i read what i read and make my own mind up on the facts not the slant of any publication
		
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Obviously not true from what you’ve said.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			ok Phil - maybe an appaling human being is too strong - but an appalling politician, with appalling leadsership, appalling and clueless economic principles, unsafe to be in charge of the military, plenty of form of not only not dealing with anti semitic behaviour but tollerating it and yet claiming there is no problem/ the problem has been dealt with etc when it plainly has not - backing the IRA against this country etc etc.
		
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You do realise that of those things you’ve said, most are demonstrably untrue and all you’ve done is believe right wing propaganda?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Obviously not true from what you’ve said.
		
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if you have anything relevant to say do say but don't  tell me what i read and why i believe what i do


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			if you have anything relevant to say do say but don't tell me what i read and why i believe what i do
		
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You’re very Boris Johnson in your delivery - “I’ll just be very loud and ignore the salient points you’re making and say other things bombastically.”


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Obviously not true from what you’ve said.
		
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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You’re very Boris Johnson in your delivery - “I’ll just be very loud and ignore the salient points you’re making and say other things bombastically.”
		
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This isn’t going to go anywhere positive. 
I completely agree with you but  some of views on here are just fuelled by the newspapers.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:








Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming everything I’ve said.


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## Kellfire (Dec 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			This isn’t going to go anywhere positive.
I completely agree with you but  some of views on here are just fuelled by the newspapers.
		
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In this case the poster is outright denying it though. That’s why it’s important to call it out.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			In this case the poster is outright denying it though. That’s why it’s important to call it out.
		
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Yup, agree and the last post was offensive, so I have reported it. Totally unacceptable and name calling is not acceptable either. 

Best to report and move on, talk about something else. Like maybe how the people paid to bail out the banks and the banks never paid any interest - who would negotiate such an appalling deal? And would you let them negotiate anything of value after that?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			ok Phil - maybe an appaling human being is too strong - but an appalling politician, with appalling leadsership, appalling and clueless economic principles,* unsafe to be in charge of the military,* plenty of form of not only not dealing with anti semitic behaviour but tollerating it and yet claiming there is no problem/ the problem has been dealt with etc when it plainly has not - backing the IRA against this country etc etc.
		
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To quote Frankie Boyle _'The Tories calling Corbyn a communist and a threat to national security after handing nuclear power plants to the Chinese is a bit like getting a bollocking off Charles Manson for putting down slug pellets. Perhaps in a few years our troops will reflect on what a harmless enemy Corbyn actually was, as they stare up at an AI minotaur, pinning them to the floor with a stainless steel hoof and holding their extracted vascular system aloft like a Ford Focus wiring-loom.' _


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yup, agree and the last post was offensive, so I have reported it. Totally unacceptable and name calling is not acceptable either.

Best to report and move on, talk about something else. Like maybe how the people paid to bail out the banks and the banks never paid any interest - who would negotiate such an appalling deal? And would you let them negotiate anything of value after that?
		
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do you remember Labour bailled out the banks? 

I have no problem with other views but i have a big problem being told that i believe something because i have believed press - that is rubbish. I make my own mind up and read plenty of views from left and right papers and live reports


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Y*up, agree and the last post was offensive, so I have reported it*. Totally unacceptable and name calling is not acceptable either.

Best to report and move on, talk about something else. Like maybe how the people paid to bail out the banks and the banks never paid any interest - who would negotiate such an appalling deal? And would you let them negotiate anything of value after that?
		
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Hey don't knock it, I quite like the idea of 4 day weeks, more beer and faster access to porn.  I must re-read the labour manifesto again as I missed all that first time.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey don't knock it, I quite like the idea of 4 day weeks, more beer and faster access to porn.  I must re-read the labour manifesto again as I missed all that first time.

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I did miss the porn bit in their manifesto..


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To quote Frankie Boyle _'The Tories calling Corbyn a communist and a threat to national security after handing nuclear power plants to the Chinese is a bit like getting a bollocking off Charles Manson for putting down slug pellets. Perhaps in a few years our troops will reflect on what a harmless enemy Corbyn actually was, as they stare up at an AI minotaur, pinning them to the floor with a stainless steel hoof and holding their extracted vascular system aloft like a Ford Focus wiring-loom.' _

Click to expand...

So a quote from Boyle, that decisive intellectual is evidence of something significant/amusing - I think not.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			So a quote from Boyle, that decisive intellectual is evidence of something significant/amusing - I think not.
		
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Have a read, he's probably not claiming to be an intellectual but he is pretty amusing. But then again we've had enough of experts anyway so what use are intellectuals https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-countdown-praying-prorogue-next-parliament


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I did miss the porn bit in their manifesto..
		
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It's actually a hidden easter egg on the labour web site where it lists the additional manifestos. https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/   Whilst on that page you need to type the letters F R E E G R O T then hit enter and their porn manifesto appears. Goes without saying it is NSFW and some bits, especially the part about PornHub replacing Google as the default browser search engine and Fake Taxi getting Uber's license are a bit out there.  But there is some good practical stuff in there as well.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

I sees Johnson once again repeated his extra 20,000 police and extra 50,000 nurses claim on National TV.
This is despite the numbers being rubbished by many different agencies .
I notice this time he did not include the 40 [20] [6] new hospitals.

As a sample of public opinion are there any posters on here who still believe what he is saying is truthful, and explain how.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I sees Johnson once again repeated his extra 20,000 police and extra 50,000 nurses claim on National TV.
This is despite the numbers being rubbished by many different agencies .
I notice this time he did not include the 40 [20] [6] new hospitals.

As a sample of public opinion are there any posters on here who still believe what he is saying is truthful, and explain how.
		
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Got a leaflet through from the local Tory candidate with all those claims on today as well as the 40 new hospitals. To be honest I'm quite pleased, as if they had changed them it would have shown that they are actually capable of accepting and admitting when they openly and deliberately mislead the public, and that may have caused me to change my opinion of them slightly.  But there's no worries about that now.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's actually a hidden easter egg on the labour web site where it lists the additional manifestos. https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/   Whilst on that page you need to type the letters F R E E G R O T then hit enter and their porn manifesto appears. Goes without saying it is NSFW and some bits, especially the part about PornHub replacing Google as the default browser search engine and Fake Taxi getting Uber's license are a bit out there.  But there is some good practical stuff in there as well.
		
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So basically 4 day week and free grot.. should this not be in their crime reduction policies? I mean we all will be at home more often and those that are at home all week will be exhausted


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I sees Johnson once again repeated his extra 20,000 police and extra 50,000 nurses claim on National TV.
This is despite the numbers being rubbished by many different agencies .
I notice this time he did not include the 40 [20] [6] new hospitals.

As a sample of public opinion are there any posters on here who still believe what he is saying is truthful, and explain how.
		
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Isn't the 20000 extra police actually accurate? It's just that it will be 20000 more than we have now which will still be around 500 less than 10 years ago when the Tories started cutting numbers.

I didn't see the debate last night but the BBC text of it said that he'd talked about 31000 additional nurses and I assumed that they'd finally decided to use the real number.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:








Click to expand...

This is just wrong....... His name is Marc👍


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			do you remember Labour bailled out the banks?
		
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Yup 2008 Mr Darling ... of the money paid out the return has not been enough and one could argue that it has been mis-managed


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the 20000 extra police actually accurate? It's just that it will be 20000 more than we have now which will still be around 500 less than 10 years ago when the Tories started cutting numbers.

I didn't see the debate last night but the BBC text of it said that he'd talked about 31000 additional nurses and I assumed that they'd finally decided to use the real number.
		
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No, at the start he said 50,000 nurses then went on to say 31,000.
Worth remembering that nursing levels are around 18,000 short [I think] at the moment so really it is only around 20,000 nurses not 50,000,
Just checked and it is actually 40 to 50,000 nurses short,
So to bring the NHS up to full strength he would need 90,000 nurses. Wow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't the 20000 extra police actually accurate? It's just that it will be 20000 more than we have now which will still be around 500 less than 10 years ago when the Tories started cutting numbers.

I didn't see the debate last night but the BBC text of it said that he'd talked about 31000 additional nurses and I assumed that they'd finally decided to use the real number.
		
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Sort of, as I posted last night I thought he was better than Corbyn when it came to the NHS, what he said was, we’re going to have 50,000 more nurses, 19,000 of those will be retained and 31,000 recruited.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sort of, as I posted last night I thought he was better than Corbyn when it came to the NHS, what he said was, we’re going to have 50,000 more nurses, 19,000 of those will be retained and 31,000 recruited.
		
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Cheers. I was sure I'd seen the figure 31000 in the BBC text. Think they even broke it down as 19000 UK trained and 12000 from overseas recruitment. But that still doesn't add up to 50000 "more" nurses.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

A


Doon frae Troon said:



			No, at the start he said 50,000 nurses then went on to say 31,000.
Worth remembering that nursing levels are around 18,000 short [I think] at the moment so really it is only around 20,000 nurses not 50,000,
		
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As of 9th Oct there are 43,000 Nurse vacancies in NHS England.

I think the 50,000 recruitment policy would be superb from any party.

What I’m confused on though is the start point, ie, is it 50,000 on todays figure so only an overall rise of 7,000 nurses (still good) and then the nurses that will be recruited to work in the 6 New hospitals or is that were the 7,000 will work?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers. I was sure I'd seen the figure 31000 in the BBC text. Think they even broke it down as 19000 UK trained and 12000 from overseas recruitment. But that still doesn't add up to 50000 "more" nurses.
		
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12,000 is out of the 31,000, the rest are homegrown recruitment. The other 19,000 are retained.
Hence the confusion of the start point. It would 50,000 more than we currently have today, but I take that as 43,000 vacancies filled and 7,000 new jobs.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			12,000 is out of the 31,000, the rest are homegrown recruitment. The other 19,000 are retained.
Hence the confusion of the start point. It would 50,000 more than we currently have today, but I take that as 43,000 vacancies filled and 7,000 new jobs.
		
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I get the first bit, but if 19000 of them are retained - or those that would have left but will be convinced to stay - then surely they will already be counted in the total number of nurses we already have so it's only 31000 more? Or 12000 less than the current number of vacancies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2019)

__ https://www.facebook.com/593116884032063/posts/2856442137699515



Warning - adult words used


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I get the first bit, but if 19000 of them are retained - or those that would have left but will be convinced to stay - then surely they will already be counted in the total number of nurses we already have so it's only 31000 more? Or 12000 less than the current number of vacancies.
		
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Yes, No, haven’t a clue, none of them have clarified the start position, just the words “in 5 years time we’ll have 50,000 more nurses” and that sounds a lot better than saying we’ll fill the existing vacancies and fund 7,000 more nurses. 
Regardless of how they are filled.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, No, haven’t a clue, none of them have clarified the start position, just the words “in 5 years time we’ll have 50,000 more nurses” and that sounds a lot better than saying we’ll fill the existing vacancies and fund 7,000 more nurses. 
Regardless of how they are filled.
		
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One other thing that I've just thought of.....if we currently have 43000 nursing vacancies in the NHS then surely we don't need 50000 more nurses, we need 43000 more nurses. Otherwise we're going to have 7000 nurses with no jobs to do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			One other thing that I've just thought of.....if we currently have 43000 nursing vacancies in the NHS then surely we don't need 50000 more nurses, we need 43000 more nurses. Otherwise we're going to have 7000 nurses with no jobs to do.
		
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We’ll have 6 new hospitals in 5 yrs and another 34 being built.


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson too afraid to attend his own hustings now.
What a whimp.
		
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If you’re referring to his late cancellation of his Rochester appearance yesterday before the debate then I’d actually say the right call was made and not wimpish. I’d also say the same had that been Corbyn, Swinson or any leader.

Reason being last night was the official opening of Rochester’s Christmas market & Dickensian weekend, meaning thousands of people from Medway out in droves with everyone from families to the local morons out getting pissed with the biggest issue being the pub garden he was going to be holding his address in being the very point where entrance to the event is and creating a bottle neck effect. Evidenced today alone as were back down in Kent this weekend and attended it and getting past that pub garden took us 15mins to get into castle grounds which is 60yards walk at most, so add Boris into that in opening night and it becomes a hazard to the public and not something worth him or any leader doing to actually talk about policies.

Though it’s been conveniently spun that it wasn’t because he’d face a labour backlash is in my experience of living there and my family still living there a bit of a twist in the truth. The logistics of him getting out of there at the time of the event and getting to Maidstone studios wouldn’t have left a lot of prep time for the debate either, it’s not a long journey but is one that has limited routes which have been mostly closed to allow for the Dickensian Christmas event.

As I say not defending the man but the situation of pulling out of that event was the right one in public interests whether your Boris, Corbyn or Medway favourites Brexiteer Farage.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			If you’re referring to his late cancellation of his Rochester appearance yesterday before the debate then I’d actually say the right call was made and not wimpish. I’d also say the same had that been Corbyn, Swinson or any leader.

Reason being last night was the official opening of Rochester’s Christmas market & Dickensian weekend, meaning thousands of people from Medway out in droves with everyone from families to the local morons out getting pissed with the biggest issue being the pub garden he was going to be holding his address in being the very point where entrance to the event is and creating a bottle neck effect. Evidenced today alone as were back down in Kent this weekend and attended it and getting past that pub garden took us 15mins to get into castle grounds which is 60yards walk at most, so add Boris into that in opening night and it becomes a hazard to the public and not something worth him or any leader doing to actually talk about policies.

Though it’s been conveniently spun that it wasn’t because he’d face a labour backlash is in my experience of living there and my family still living there a bit of a twist in the truth. The logistics of him getting out of there at the time of the event and getting to Maidstone studios wouldn’t have left a lot of prep time for the debate either, it’s not a long journey but is one that has limited routes which have been mostly closed to allow for the Dickensian Christmas event.

As I say not defending the man but the situation of pulling out of that event was the right one in public interests whether your Boris, Corbyn or Medway favourites Brexiteer Farage.
		
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Yes just poor timings as you say it would be carnage irrespective of who it was


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2019)

Security nightmare as well.


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			As I say not defending the man but the situation of pulling out of that event was the right one in public interests whether your Boris, Corbyn or Medway favourites Brexiteer Farage.
		
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It does get stacked there for these events, we went to the sweeps summer festival a couple of years back and it was rammed


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2019)

I believe DfT was alluding to the fact that Boris couldn't be asked to attend the hustings in his own constituency Uxbridge... Really poor show on his part, yet again, dodging facing his own constituents...


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe DfT was alluding to the fact that Boris couldn't be asked to attend the hustings in his own constituency Uxbridge... Really poor show on his part, yet again, dodging facing his own constituents...
		
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Surely that's his personal choice and a risk he's prepared to take,  its irrelevant to DFT


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe DfT was alluding to the fact that Boris couldn't be asked to attend the hustings in his own constituency Uxbridge... Really poor show on his part, yet again, dodging facing his own constituents...
		
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If thats what he is referring to rather than last nights last minute pull out then obviously what i refer to is irrelevant, if it was about last night then the points stand.

However regarding his own constituency thats ultimately Boris choice, some may see it as not being bothered others may see it as leader of the country he's prioritising the overall party position rather than his own constituency. Either way he will always be in someone's bad books for it but totally irrelevant to DFT as someone no where near the constituency, just prefers to have a pop at Boris at regular occasion or anyone generally that isn't SNP


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You’re very Boris Johnson in your delivery - “I’ll just be very loud and ignore the salient points you’re making and say other things bombastically.”
		
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Does that make you very Jezz Corbers?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Surely that's his personal choice and a risk he's prepared to take,  its irrelevant to DFT
		
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I would suggest many of the posts, on political threads, could said to be
 specifically irrelevant to the poster...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			If thats what he is referring to rather than last nights last minute pull out then obviously what i refer to is irrelevant, if it was about last night then the points stand.

However regarding his own constituency thats ultimately Boris choice, some may see it as not being bothered others may see it as leader of the country he's prioritising the overall party position rather than his own constituency. Either way he will always be in someone's bad books for it but totally irrelevant to DFT as someone no where near the constituency, just prefers to have a pop at Boris at regular occasion or anyone generally that isn't SNP
		
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I
To be "leader of the country" you first need to be in the house... And, for that you need your constituents to put you there... Not sure how many previous PM's have ignored turning up at their own constituency hustings...


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## patricks148 (Dec 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Work of comic genius in my opinion, kind of skewers all parties but of course especially as it's the Guardian, the Tories.  Some of the one liners are inspired.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-countdown-praying-prorogue-next-parliament

Click to expand...

worryingly true


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## patricks148 (Dec 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/593116884032063/posts/2856442137699515



Warning - adult words used
		
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yep that just about sums it up


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 7, 2019)

I am left wondering the environmental impact of this election.

We receive 2-3 letters or post from various parties each day, our recycling bin is about 1/3 full with them!

Its totally insane and has to stop! It has been going on for over a week. We have also closed the door on a fair few people at the door.

I do my own research and don’t need their “Vote for us because this other person said/did this” stuff. The worst for that round us is the Lib Dem’s but they are all doing it and it just makes me want to vote for them less.

The party with the least post to us (One tiny slip) and the one with no smear? The Greens...

I know where my vote is going.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Surely that's his personal choice and a risk he's prepared to take,  its irrelevant to DFT
		
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Take your pick

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-facing-protesters/ar-BBXUgM3?ocid=spartandhp


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2019)

No thanks, I'd rather just not play your silly games.


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Take your pick

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-facing-protesters/ar-BBXUgM3?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Given that many families were out with small kids Christmas shopping in and around the areas it was a sensible move.


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Take your pick

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-facing-protesters/ar-BBXUgM3?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Easy to quote Chris to tell him to take his pick but Try actually reading the article or even responses to your previous posts. One in Bolton  states police advised to call off for safety, the one in Rochester had nothing to do with 5 Socialist activists turning up as it was cancelled earlier in the day before they had supposedly turned up (that is pure media fiction) it was called off due to what I stated in my previous reply to you in that there were 1000s of people out attending the largest event Rochester(Medway) hosts which meant logistically is impossible for anyone to carry out anything there..

Its easy to write a headline saying Boris abandoned campaign without writing the facts, and its just as lazy to post the article ridiculing the man, especially when you've already been given the actual facts from someone actually there who even said it would have been impossible for any of the parties to safely campaign there not just for them but for the members of public there.


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## Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Given that many families were out with small kids Christmas shopping in and around the areas it was a sensible move.
		
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The Rochester one was the only sensible option to cancel it, last figures released by medway Council were that it annually attracts 138,000 visitors. With the opening night being particularly busy, so even if you say only 30,000  attend the first evening thats far to many people to have there with a political event on at same time, Rochester isnt very big and the pub in question is 60yards from the entrance to the main attraction. Logically it woukd have been stupid to go ahead for any candidate.


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## Dando (Dec 8, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Easy to quote Chris to tell him to take his pick but Try actually reading the article or even responses to your previous posts. One in Bolton  states police advised to call off for safety, the one in Rochester had nothing to do with 5 Socialist activists turning up as it was cancelled earlier in the day before they had supposedly turned up (that is pure media fiction) it was called off due to what I stated in my previous reply to you in that there were 1000s of people out attending the largest event Rochester(Medway) hosts which meant logistically is impossible for anyone to carry out anything there..

Its easy to write a headline saying Boris abandoned campaign without writing the facts, and its just as lazy to post the article ridiculing the man, especially when you've already been given the actual facts from someone actually there who even said it would have been impossible for any of the parties to safely campaign there not just for them but for the members of public there.
		
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Have you not realised that stating facts has no place on this thread


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

After 10 years of Tory rule and mismanagement the NHS is short of 43,000 nurses.
Johnson says he will bring in 40,000 EXTRA nurses so that makes a total of 83,000 nurses he will have to employ to make his promise truthful.


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## Wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

Dando said:



			Have you not realised that stating facts has no place on this thread
		
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No just like banging my head against a brick wall mate 😂

Just find it pathetic that certain posters will post the tripe they do then ignore the replies and carry on regardless, kids have better grasp of reality and maturity than some people on here.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Wolf said:



			No just like banging my head against a brick wall mate 😂

Just find it pathetic that certain posters will post the tripe they do then ignore the replies and carry on regardless, kids have better grasp of reality and maturity than some people on here.
		
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In most things, reality is somewhere in the middle of what two people believe. Pick anything thats been posted and apart from the mega outlandish rubbish, there'll be some truth in there.

Will Labour completely tank the economy? No, but the spending plans are dangerous.

Do the tories have major problems with Islamaphobia? No but there's problems there.

Are the JLM claims about antisemitism accurate? No but there's problems there.

Will the Tories build 40 new hospitals? No, I very much doubt they could find the money for anything close.

Will the Tories sell the NHS to the US companies? No, no one could find the money to buy 1,250 fully equipped hospitals.


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## Wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In most things, reality is somewhere in the middle of what two people believe. Pick anything thats been posted and apart from the mega outlandish rubbish, there'll be some truth in there.

Will Labour completely tank the economy? No, but the spending plans are dangerous.

Do the tories have major problems with Islamaphobia? No but there's problems there.

Are the JLM claims about antisemitism accurate? No but there's problems there.

Will the Tories build 40 new hospitals? No, I very much doubt they could find the money for anything close.

Will the Tories sell the NHS to the US companies? No, no one could find the money to buy 1,250 fully equipped hospitals.
		
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Hobbit how vary dare you post something that makes sense, how will the kids be able to blindly ignore truth 😂

But you make a great point there of course will be elements of truth in there, merely with a few added words well placed to make it spin to a certain parties agenda and that is relevant to all parties. I call it the Obi Wan school of politics because as he says “what I told you is the truth from a certain point of view “


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Wolf said:



			No just like banging my head against a brick wall mate 😂

Just find it pathetic that certain posters will post the tripe they do then ignore the replies and carry on regardless, kids have better grasp of reality ans maturity than some people on here.
		
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Ah Wolf, do you not notice that one if the main protagonists is a poster from north of the border who supports a gobby and pretty useless leader who's never been a Westminster MP,  follows on from a leader who is in court soon on a number of very serious charges, and who's in trouble in her own country for failing to deliver promises herself. Bearing also in mind that she wants to leave a Union that she benefits heavily from to join one that she has no clue what the terms will be?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 8, 2019)

Dando said:



			Have you not realised that stating facts has no place on this thread
		
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The facts are usually easy to pick out though... As they very rarely get a valid response from the other side of the debate...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I change on a regular basis depending on the candidate and the parties current manifestos. I know you said 'since the last election' which is a short time span so fewer are likely to have changed, but I have voted for at least 5 parties over my voting lifetime in general and local elections. And it's completely feasible that that may rise to 6 in this one as Soubry is standing where I am for the Tiggers. Individuals, society and especially now parties all change over time, so I see no reason why someones voting intentions should not.  Pretty sure I voted for the tories back in the 80s I think.  And if they would have elected Rory Stewart as leader, promoted the more one nation tories and expelled the UKIPy ones, instead of doing the opposite, then who knows this time.

You could argue the Blair's Labour party is closer to Majors Tories than it is to Corbyn's Labour party.  And vice versa, Majors is closer to Blair's than Boris's.  I'd even argue Boris's current incarnation is closer to UKIP as was, than it is to Majors Tories.   To be honest if people just vote the same every time no matter what is happening in the world or who is in charge of the party then that is the kind of uncritical analysis they rely on. And the 'see/hear no evil' approach to me is part of the reason we are where we are in such a divided nation with a poor set of politicians.

And I will have to change my voting intention this time as the party I voted for last time is not fielding a candidate this time. Admittedly seeing people trying to justify Boris's cowardice in avoiding interviews when you know god damn well if it was Corbyn avoiding them they'd be all over it constantly, isn't going to convince me to vote Tory.  But at least this thread has helped me rule out a few options this time. 

Click to expand...

If I thought that Johnson could be dumped in short term and that Jeremy Hunt would take over then I could see that circumstance finding me voting for him.  But I can’t see that happening so sorry Jeremy - not getting my vote.

We got our first Hunt leaflet yesterday - lots of ‘super Jeremy constituency mp’ - quite a lot about his time as foreign secretary and health and social care secretary -  but what words were completely missing from his lots of words and pictures leaflet...’Get Brexit Done’ .  Nothing on that at all.  Some words about unblocking parliament but none of the GBD rubbish.

He clearly realises that in a Remain constituency many constituents just wouldn’t buy that guff - it would infuriate Remain voters, and it might even insult the intelligence of the Leave voting constituents.

But Get Johnson Out could have seem me voting to Keep Hunt In.  Bizarrely.

He’ll win in any case as TBP not standing and so their votes will go Hunt - if they had stood there was an outside chance of a LibDem win.  Not now though. How the votes split will still be interesting.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I thought that Johnson could be dumped in short term and that Jeremy Hunt would take over then I could see that circumstance finding me voting for him.  But I can’t see that happening so sorry Jeremy - not getting my vote.

We got our first Hunt leaflet yesterday - lots of ‘super Jeremy constituency mp’ - quite a lot about his time as foreign secretary and health and social care secretary -  but what words were completely missing from his lots of words and pictures leaflet...’Get Brexit Done’ .  Nothing on that at all.  Some words about unblocking parliament but none of the GBD rubbish.

He clearly realises that in a Remain constituency many constituents just wouldn’t buy that guff - it would infuriate Remain voters, and it might even insult the intelligence of the Leave voting constituents.
		
Click to expand...

Even you, I'm sure, accept that we need to resolve the Brexit issue as soon as and then move on. I know that you dont want it resolved the same way as me but there is no doubt that it is stifling Parliament and the country.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In most things, reality is somewhere in the middle of what two people believe. Pick anything thats been posted and apart from the mega outlandish rubbish, there'll be some truth in there.

Will Labour completely tank the economy? No, but the spending plans are dangerous.

Do the tories have major problems with Islamaphobia? No but there's problems there.

Are the JLM claims about antisemitism accurate? No but there's problems there.

Will the Tories build 40 new hospitals? No, I very much doubt they could find the money for anything close.

Will the Tories sell the NHS to the US companies? No, no one could find the money to buy 1,250 fully equipped hospitals.
		
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makes sense Brian - apart from the bit about tanking the economy - if these plans are implemented fully or near full and all utilities, broadband (more than just oppenreach), rail etc, plus the workers getting 10% of companies etc. I strongly believe this is endgame for the economy - we will be a global outcast - inward investment will die, our credit rating will die, the pound will tank to parity v dollar or maybe worse and the servicing of our debt will spiral out of control. The prospects are utterly horrifying


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Ah Wolf, do you not notice that one if the main protagonists is a poster from north of the border who supports a gobby and pretty useless leader who's never been a Westminster MP,  follows on from a leader who is in court soon on a number of very serious charges, and who's in trouble in her own country for failing to deliver promises herself. Bearing also in mind that she wants to leave a Union that she benefits heavily from to join one that she has no clue what the terms will be?
		
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..and somehow persuade the EU, totally against its rules, to let in a country without a currency??


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

When faced with an uncomfortable truth against their point of view why do the right wing leave types on here nearly always revert to personal insults and name calling.
Must go as Wee Krankie is spouting off on the telly. Very brave of her to face public scrutiny once again, unlike some of her male counterparts.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When faced with an uncomfortable truth against their point of view why do the right wing leave types on here nearly always revert to personal insults and name calling.
Must go as Wee Krankie is spouting off on the telly. Very brave of her to face public scrutiny once again, unlike some of her male counterparts.

Click to expand...

Once she's made herself look second rate there's no point in not reinforcing the fact


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you make so little sense it is not worth bothering with but i read what i read and make my own mind up on the facts not the slant of any publication
		
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Yes - but you are being disingenuous suggesting that all voters do the deep and comprehensive research into the parties, policies and leaders that you do - they don’t and I’d have thought that you’d know that.  They read and listen to the headline messages of the commentators and media they subscribe to and follow. No more than that.


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			After 10 years of Tory rule and mismanagement the NHS is short of 43,000 nurses.
Johnson says he will bring in 40,000 EXTRA nurses so that makes a total of 83,000 nurses he will have to employ to make his promise truthful.
		
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And your anti-Trump/US Nicola has just signed a 5 year deal with a US company to manage Purchasing etc across NH Scotland.

NHS has been managed in a devolved Scotland for that period while you've racked up debts over 9% GDP - above EU threshold admission level of 3%.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When faced with an uncomfortable truth against their point of view why do the right wing leave types on here nearly always revert to personal insults and name calling.
Must go as Wee Krankie is spouting off on the telly. Very brave of her to face public scrutiny once again, unlike some of her male counterparts.

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but you are being disingenuous suggesting that all voters do the deep and comprehensive research into the parties, policies and leaders that you do - they don’t and I’d have thought that you’d know that.  They read and listen to the headline messages of the commentators and media they subscribe to and follow. No more than that.
		
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i was refering to me after being told that i was being hoodwinked by press. But similarly, i am not going to suggest that anyone is influenced by political half truths, deflected comments or any bias from the writer - that would be disingenouos to suggest that people are too stupid to make up their own mind


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			12,000 is out of the 31,000, the rest are homegrown recruitment. The other 19,000 are retained.
Hence the confusion of the start point. It would 50,000 more than we currently have today, but I take that as 43,000 vacancies filled and 7,000 new jobs.
		
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And if you talk to almost any one the 19000 who have recently left or are planning to leave or retire in the next five years I think you will find that very few will have any thoughts of the sort ‘let’s see what he comes up with to entice me to stay or return’ Cant say none - however just speak to any such nurse ans see what they say.  I could make a suggestion but would get an infraction...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i was refering to me after being told that i was being hoodwinked by press. But similarly, i am not going to suggest that anyone is influenced by political half truths, deflected comments or any bias from the writer - *that would be disingenouos to suggest that people are too stupid to make up their own mind*

Click to expand...

I think that you might find that many voters do not care one iota about the detail behind the headline.  So they read or hear that ‘Corbyn is an appalling person’ from someone they listen to and they believe it - it becomes their truth.  Subsequent retractions are missed or lost to them - or they consider the retraction as being forced on the commentator or paper by political correctness - so what was first said remains their truth.  Sad but has been the case for a long time.


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if you talk to almost any one the 19000 who have recently left or are planning to leave or retire in the next five years I think you will find that very few will have any thoughts of the sort ‘let’s see what he comes up with to entice me to stay or return’ Cant say none - however *just speak to any such nurse* ans see what they say.  I could make a suggestion but would get an infraction...
		
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B---s...t - I know a wack of nurses who love their job and the people they work with.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you might find that many voters do not care one iota about the detail behind the headline.  So they read or hear that ‘Corbyn is an appalling person’ from someone they listen to and they believe it - it becomes their truth.  Subsequent retractions are missed or lost to them - or they consider the retraction as being forced on the commentator or paper by political correctness - so what was first said remains their truth.  Sad but has been the case for a long time.
		
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this applies to both sides here - there are lots of questionable comments and policies blurted out by dozens of papers, programmes, social media etc - not least Labour saying they have dealt with anti semitism. So, once again, suggesting that people are too stupid to have made up their own minds due to slants/ half truths/ lies/ fantasy economics etc - is disingenous!


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you might find that many voters do not care one iota about the detail behind the headline.  So they read or hear that ‘Corbyn is an appalling person’ from someone they listen to and they believe it - it becomes their truth.  Subsequent retractions are missed or lost to them - or they consider the retraction as being forced on the commentator or paper by political correctness - so what was first said remains their truth.  Sad but has been the case for a long time.
		
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I hear what you say but you know what - Corbyn really is an appalling person !


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			makes sense Brian - apart from the bit about tanking the economy - if these plans are implemented fully or near full and all utilities, broadband (more than just oppenreach), rail etc, plus the workers getting 10% of companies etc. I strongly believe this is endgame for the economy - we will be a global outcast - inward investment will die, our credit rating will die, the pound will tank to parity v dollar or maybe worse and the servicing of our debt will spiral out of control. The prospects are utterly horrifying
		
Click to expand...

Is that any different to the worst case scenario we’re being told about a No Deal Brexit.
We are all guilty on here for exaggerating the benefits of who we support and highlighting the worst of the opposition.
Project Fear is alive and well on all sides of the political spectrum.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I hear what you say but you know what - Corbyn really is an appalling person !
		
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you are not alone Chris!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...corbyn-could-anti-semitic-says-former-senior/


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that any different to the worst case scenario we’re being told about a No Deal Brexit.
We are all guilty on here for exaggerating the benefits of who we support and highlighting the worst of the opposition.
Project Fear is alive and well on all sides of the political spectrum.
		
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i think it is very hard to work out what affect No Deal with have but i believe (even as someone who voted remain) that there are many policies that can be implemented on tax, free ports etc etc etc that can help limit the inevitable damage to certain areas. Also, i believe that No-Brext dmage (if it happens) will likely be relatively short lived and it may end up being quite positive a few years ahead. There is no siilver lining or way out of the mess that will happen if John McDonnell implements Labour's desired policies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you are not alone Chris!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...corbyn-could-anti-semitic-says-former-senior/

Click to expand...

Should we also read his interview were he states he despairs over both Leaders or were he talks about the proroguing of parliament and the legal decisions.

“Did they get it right? “I have to agree with it. Absolutely… the sovereignty of parliament is undoubtedly a cornerstone of our constitution.” And Johnson sought to trample over that? “I think yes, he did. He did.”

Or we could mention he’s jewish and if there’s any bias to his point of view.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...tension-law-benn-act-parliament-supreme-court

It’s easy to find articles to suit our point of view.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i think it is very hard to work out what affect No Deal with have but i believe (even as someone who voted remain) that there are many policies that can be implemented on tax, free ports etc etc etc that can help limit the inevitable damage to certain areas. Also, i believe that No-Brext dmage (if it happens) will likely be relatively short lived and it may end up being quite positive a few years ahead. There is no siilver lining or way out of the mess that will happen if John McDonnell implements Labour's desired policies.
		
Click to expand...

The IFS, who has been used by both sides, came out with a worst case study this week that showed if we get worse case scenario the tories will have to borrow much more than any figure the Labour party have stated during this campaign.

Obviously we all hope for a smooth leave with little impact, but surely we shouldn’t dismiss either possible impacts of either a Labour win or a worst case No Deal Brexit?


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The IFS, who has been used by both sides, came out with a worst case study this week that showed if we get worse case scenario the tories will have to borrow much more than any figure the Labour party have stated during this campaign.

Obviously we all hope for a smooth leave with little impact, but surely we shouldn’t dismiss either possible impacts of either a Labour win or a worst case No Deal Brexit?
		
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Paul, a WORST case scenario is not comparable with a Labour Party (apparently) costed manifesto


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Paul, a WORST case scenario is not comparable with a Labour Party (apparently) costed manifesto
		
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In the first few years it’s possibly worse Chris.
I’m not defending the Labour Manifesto, I described it as a fairy story, my point is, people use it to paint a picture of possible doom and gloom, yet when the worries of a No Deal Brexit are raised the same people dismiss that as Project Fear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-50628644


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In the first few years it’s possibly worse Chris.
I’m not defending the Labour Manifesto, I described it as a fairy story, my point is, people use it to paint a picture of possible doom and gloom, yet when the worries of a No Deal Brexit are raised the same people dismiss that as Project Fear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-50628644

Click to expand...

But its possibly much better too, so my point is that they're comparing apples and pears. If the EU want to survive they really do need to give us a free trade deal on similar lines to our current one because the lost trade that EU countries will suffer will drive them in to recession imo

I dont want a no deal but would prefer it to the BRINO that Corbyn is going to end up with, surprising given he's always been a leaver until the chance of being elected became a possibility, so just using it to further his own ambition


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But its possibly much better too, so my point is that they're comparing apples and pears. If the EU want to survive they really do need to give us a free trade deal on similar lines to our current one because the lost trade that EU countries will suffer will drive them in to recession imo

I dont want a no deal but would prefer it to the BRINO that Corbyn is going to end up with, surprising given he's always been a leaver until the chance of being elected became a possibility, so just using it to further his own ambition
		
Click to expand...

What if Labour are correct about their Manifesto? Does that work the same for your first 6 words?

I hope you’re correct on the rest of your first paragraph, but we’ll wait and see.

2nd Paragraph - No comment, tried to keep personalities out of it as neither Leader is better than the other and don’t wish to get in to a Corbyn v boris running round in circles discussion.


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## pendodave (Dec 8, 2019)

I have to say, it seems odd that the right wingers on here find it possible to :
a) believe any optimistic outcome for no-deal, out of Europe, scenarios.
b) impossible to believe in anything good coming from shared ownership of essential national utilities and workers sharing a (very small) part of the wealth they create in a company.


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I hear what you say but you know what - Corbyn really is an appalling person !
		
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But not as bad as Blathering-Bojo.....


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

pendodave said:



			I have to say, it seems odd that the right wingers on here find it possible to :
a) believe any optimistic outcome for no-deal, out of Europe, scenarios.
b) impossible to believe in anything good coming from shared ownership of essential national utilities and workers sharing a (very small) part of the wealth they create in a company.
		
Click to expand...

Some of us right wingers as you call us weren't born yesterday and have witnessed these crackpot schemes before and seen how catastrophic (a well used term by the lefties) they always turn out.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

2blue said:



			But not as bad as Blathering-Bojo..... 

Click to expand...

Oh yes he is (wont bother with the silly emojis or the Dyd Dob)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What if Labour are correct about their Manifesto? Does that work the same for your first 6 words?

I hope you’re correct on the rest of your first paragraph, but we’ll wait and see.

2nd Paragraph - No comment, tried to keep personalities out of it as neither Leader is better than the other and don’t wish to get in to a Corbyn v boris running round in circles discussion.
		
Click to expand...

What if you use a Labour worst case scenario as well?


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes he is (wont bother with the silly emojis or the Dyd Dob)
		
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Oh how you dib dibbers are so plain-Jane. 🤪🤪


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

2blue said:



			Oh how you dib dibbers are so plain-Jane. 🤪🤪
		
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Of course we are old fruit.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I hear what you say but you know what - Corbyn really is an appalling person !
		
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Is he though?

I do wonder about it at times. He says some very caring things, and I do believe he actually believes in them, but I do wonder sometimes if he's really competent enough to carry it off. Equally, what an idiot! "Yes I watch the Queen's speech on the morning..." The subject itself is relatively inconsequential but why lie? And is that an indicator of the man, a liar through and through?

But the problem with a liar is then the lack of credibility in everything they say.

I trust pretty much nothing of consequence out of his mouth, just as I trust nothing out of Johnson's mouth.

I think the most trustworthy politician at present is Jo Swinson. She really does come across as very truthful but oh how undemocratic.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

The most applause given by the studio audience on the PM debate was given to Corbyn after Johnson shamelessly tried to blacken him with an IRA jibe.
I cannot recall exactly what Corbyn said but it was dignified and statesman like and the audience reacted to that.

Remember this is coming from me, a bloke who thinks Corbyn is pretty ineffectual.


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The most applause given by the studio audience on the PM debate was given to Corbyn after Johnson shamelessly tried to blacken him with an IRA jibe.
I cannot recall exactly what *Corby*n said but it was *dignified* and *statesman* like and the audience reacted to that.

Remember this is coming from me, a bloke who thinks Corbyn is pretty ineffectual.
		
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I'm not sure those three words should be in the same sentence...


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## pauljames87 (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is he though?

I do wonder about it at times. He says some very caring things, and I do believe he actually believes in them, but I do wonder sometimes if he's really competent enough to carry it off. Equally, what an idiot! "Yes I watch the Queen's speech on the morning..." The subject itself is relatively inconsequential but why lie? And is that an indicator of the man, a liar through and through?

But the problem with a liar is then the lack of credibility in everything they say.

I trust pretty much nothing of consequence out of his mouth, just as I trust nothing out of Johnson's mouth.

I think the most trustworthy politician at present is Jo Swinson. She really does come across as very truthful but oh how undemocratic.
		
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I've already sent my vote off a couple weeks back via postal vote..I voted on policies not personalities as I find it impossible to respect any of the main party leaders 

I like Corbyn. As a person he seems genuine and well meaning. However my my what a terrible leader. Labour need Kia stama (spelling) in as leader to get some credibility back 

I dislike Boris a lot. Horrible man, he was indirectly my boss as mayor of london so I know a lot of people who dealt with him. Pig headed is a good way to sum up. Im also fed up with Tory policies, sod the poor.

Then Jo Swinton , everytime she appears on the telly she just seems to come across as completely mental. Then you have the whole getting into bed with the Tories to get them into power. 

Welcome to modern politics I guess .


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## PNWokingham (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The most applause given by the studio audience on the PM debate was given to Corbyn after Johnson shamelessly tried to blacken him with an IRA jibe.
I cannot recall exactly what Corbyn said but it was dignified and statesman like and the audience reacted to that.

Remember this is coming from me, a bloke who thinks Corbyn is pretty ineffectual.
		
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and so he should bring up his terrorist sympathies - this man wants to lead our country and that is unacceptable


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## Mudball (Dec 8, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			and so he should bring up his terrorist sympathies - this man wants to lead our country and that is unacceptable






Click to expand...

not defending Corbyn..... but he is up against another buffoon whose 'oven ready deal' will end up cutting Ireland away from the rest of the country.   
So either way some Irish are stuff.   The question is how many.  

PS: Whichever way you go, the whole country is currently up the creek...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Is he though?*

I do wonder about it at times. He says some very caring things, and I do believe he actually believes in them, but I do wonder sometimes if he's really competent enough to carry it off. Equally, what an idiot! "Yes I watch the Queen's speech on the morning..." The subject itself is relatively inconsequential but why lie? And is that an indicator of the man, a liar through and through?

But the problem with a liar is then the lack of credibility in everything they say.

I trust pretty much nothing of consequence out of his mouth, just as I trust nothing out of Johnson's mouth.

I think the most trustworthy politician at present is Jo Swinson. She really does come across as very truthful but oh how undemocratic.
		
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I think he is. His position on most subjects is 'On the fence' so he can jump down on any side that suits his agenda at that particular time.  Just look at his complete indecisive position on Brexit, we all know that he is a Eurosceptic and always has been but its obvious he will say anything that he considers is helping his ambition to be PM.


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## Imurg (Dec 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The most applause given by the studio audience on the PM debate was given to Corbyn  




			Electing MPs via the clapometer now are we........
		
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Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

No, just what it says on the tin.
A small sample of a balanced audiences opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I hear what you say but you know what - Corbyn really is an appalling person !
		
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Once again Tory supporters attacking Corbyn as a person - 

Can you tell me exactly why he is an “appalling person” - not many “appalling” people win prestigious peace awards. 



PNWokingham said:



			you are not alone Chris!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...corbyn-could-anti-semitic-says-former-senior/

Click to expand...

Imagine a Tory based paper running an article calling him anti Semitic 

How about this picture 



This whole thread is getting pathetic but I guess it just mirrors the whole political situation in the country - from Brexit right through to this election grown adults unable to discuss and debate the actually points or manifesto or their policy’s or what they want to do for the future 

Lots of trenches where the only response is derogatory comments.

Sometimes I don’t think people can see what’s happened to many people around the country during austerity over the last decade but then it is a forum full of golfers 

I haven’t got a club what to do at the next election , the country is a mess , the last ten years under Tory have been awful for millions and we currently have a Prime Minister who highlights all that is wrong in the UK ( the rich just looking after the rich ) - but then we have a Labour Party who have gone too far left even though I think their idea to make it a fairer society is a good idea , an idea to help the people who are struggling - a good number of people have benefited over the ten years from austerity, maybe it’s time to share those benefits.

So where is the middle of the road sensible option ? The one that will look closely at Brexit and actually tell the truth on the benefits of leaving or staying , the one that will bolster our NHS , our Social Services , our defences , our schools whilst ensuring we treat people fairly ? 
I guess I’m asking too much to find a political party whose main goal is to serve the nation as a whole.


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## pendodave (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Once again Tory supporters attacking Corbyn as a person -

Can you tell me exactly why he is an “appalling person” - not many “appalling” people win prestigious peace awards.



Imagine a Tory based paper running an article calling him anti Semitic

How about this picture

View attachment 28711

This whole thread is getting pathetic but I guess it just mirrors the whole political situation in the country - from Brexit right through to this election grown adults unable to discuss and debate the actually points or manifesto or their policy’s or what they want to do for the future

Lots of trenches where the only response is derogatory comments.

Sometimes I don’t think people can see what’s happened to many people around the country during austerity over the last decade but then it is a forum full of golfers

I haven’t got a club what to do at the next election , the country is a mess , the last ten years under Tory have been awful for millions and we currently have a Prime Minister who highlights all that is wrong in the UK ( the rich just looking after the rich ) - but then we have a Labour Party who have gone too far left even though I think their idea to make it a fairer society is a good idea , an idea to help the people who are struggling - a good number of people have benefited over the ten years from austerity, maybe it’s time to share those benefits.

So where is the middle of the road sensible option ? The one that will look closely at Brexit and actually tell the truth on the benefits of leaving or staying , the one that will bolster our NHS , our Social Services , our defences , our schools whilst ensuring we treat people fairly ?
I guess I’m asking too much to find a political party whose main goal is to serve the nation as a whole.
		
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Well said LP


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## robinthehood (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Even you, I'm sure, accept that we need to resolve the Brexit issue as soon as and then move on. I know that you dont want it resolved the same way as me but there is no doubt that it is stifling Parliament and the country.
		
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GET BREXIT DONE


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

The middle road sensible option is in Scotland.
That is why it is so popular there.


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## pendodave (Dec 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Some of us right wingers as you call us weren't born yesterday and have witnessed these crackpot schemes before and seen how catastrophic (a well used term by the lefties) they always turn out.
		
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I wasn't born yesterday either, and more damage to our society has been inflicted by Tories than any other source.
More wealth and opportunity has been coralled by the klepto-elites at the same time.
I also have concerns about certain Labour policies, but I am absolutely certain that, based on all evidence from the last 40 years, the Tories will be poisonous for the majority of the people in our country. Because they always have been.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is he though?

I do wonder about it at times. He says some very caring things, and I do believe he actually believes in them, but I do wonder sometimes if he's really competent enough to carry it off. Equally, what an idiot! "Yes I watch the Queen's speech on the morning..." The subject itself is relatively inconsequential but why lie? And is that an indicator of the man, a liar through and through?

But the problem with a liar is then the lack of credibility in everything they say.

I trust pretty much nothing of consequence out of his mouth, just as I trust nothing out of Johnson's mouth.

I think the most trustworthy politician at present is Jo Swinson. She really does come across as very truthful but oh how undemocratic.
		
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As Frankie Boyle pointed out - Swinson is from Milngavie - folks from that neck of the woods have always fancied themselves as something special but they are in denial as they know that it’s the good folks of the Southside who are actually the special ones 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2019)

Mudball said:



			not defending Corbyn..... but he is up against another buffoon whose 'oven ready deal' will end up cutting Ireland away from the rest of the country.  
So either way some Irish are stuff.   The question is how many. 

PS: Whichever way you go, the whole country is currently up the creek...
		
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We get the Corbyn/IRA stuff from however long ago from the same folks who tell us what Johnson said or did in the past is an irrelevance - excellent...


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## Mudball (Dec 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We get the Corbyn/IRA stuff from however long ago from the same folks who tell us what Johnson said or did in the past is an irrelevance - excellent...
		
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I can see the hypocrisy.. 
In case BoJo supporters have forgotten the distant past, then the events of last week might be a bit of reminder 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...r-london-bridge-attack-election-a9236956.html


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203576798681935872


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you tell me exactly why he is an “appalling person” .
		
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You know what Phil, at your age if you dont know you aren't going to accept  anyone's reasons but I'm pretty sure if you look up "Jeremy Corbyn" in a dictionary it'll just say "appalling person"


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You know what Phil, at your age if you dont know you aren't going to accept  anyone's reasons but I'm pretty sure if you look up "Jeremy Corbyn" in a dictionary it'll just say "appalling person"
		
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Then show it - instead of just blurting it out on a daily basis - show me why Jeremy Corbyn is an appalling person 

actually give some reasons for a change instead of just insults and accusations 

And to counter before you give any reasons - here is the stuff about his peace award 


http://www.ipb.org/jeremy-corbyn/


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then show it - instead of just blurting it out on a daily basis - show me why Jeremy Corbyn is an appalling person 

actually give some reasons for a change instead of just insults and accusations 

And to counter before you give any reasons - here is the stuff about his peace award 


http://www.ipb.org/jeremy-corbyn/

Click to expand...

No Phil, I'm not playing that game 😋


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2019)

A different tack. Can anyone see the Libdems doing well? By all accounts Swinson is a major turn off and their poll numbers have flatlined. Will they do well enough in key seats to make a difference?

They don't really register up here so I'm wondering if there is a positive vibe elsewhere?


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A different tack. Can anyone see the Libdems doing well? By all accounts Swinson is a major turn off and their poll numbers have flatlined. Will they do well enough in key seats to make a difference?

They don't really register up here so I'm wondering if there is a positive vibe elsewhere?
		
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Not in Kent I wouldn't think


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A different tack. Can anyone see the Libdems doing well? By all accounts Swinson is a major turn off and their poll numbers have flatlined. Will they do well enough in key seats to make a difference?

They don't really register up here so I'm wondering if there is a positive vibe elsewhere?
		
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Look at the marginal leave seats .. that’s their opportunity


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## MegaSteve (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You know what Phil, at your age if you dont know you aren't going to accept  anyone's reasons but I'm pretty sure if you look up "Jeremy Corbyn" in a dictionary it'll just say "appalling person"
		
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Taking your lead I looked up liar and it said Boris...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			No Phil, I'm not playing that game 😋
		
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It’s not a game , that’s the problem with this whole thing , people like yourself throw statements and accusations around aimed towards Labour and Corbyn because you are clearly a Tory supporter and like most of them when challenged to provide some actual basis you can’t. That’s why you resort to attempting to turn it around to me 

You called Corbyn an “appalling person”

You were asked why he is an appalling person and you clearly can’t answer it 

It’s the stereotypical picture of this whole election campaign


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Taking your lead I looked up liar and it said Boris...
		
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If you read down it said

Boris
Corbyn 
Swinson 
Krankie
McDonnell 
All politicians


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a game , that’s the problem with this whole thing , people like yourself throw statements and accusations around aimed towards Labour and Corbyn because you are clearly a Tory supporter and like most of them when challenged to provide some actual basis you can’t. That’s why you resort to attempting to turn it around to me 

You called Corbyn an “appalling person”

You were asked why he is an appalling person and you clearly can’t answer it 

It’s the stereotypical picture of this whole election campaign
		
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 Comedy gold Phil - what's coming up after the adverts?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Comedy gold Phil - what's coming up after the adverts?
		
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What’s wrong ? Is that all you can answer ? You are very vocal against Corbyn and Labour which is your right but surely when someone ask for reasons why you call someone “appalling” you must have them to hand ? No ? 

I’ll help you out - 

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/music3/707-bruce-springsteen-the-wall

Below are Mr Waugh-Monger's ten commandments telling UK electors why they should not, under any circumstances, vote for Jeremy Corbyn. 

1. Jeremy Corbyn wants to 'stop the war'. 

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the bombing of Yugoslavia. He opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. He was against the invasion of Iraq. He was against bombing Libya and also voted against military action in Syria. 

I ask you – is this the sort of man who is fit to be prime minister? 

If Corbyn – heaven forbid – had been British Prime Minister in 2003 he would not have committed British troops to the invasion of Iraq. Just imagine what would have happened if we hadn't invaded Iraq! Well, I'll tell you what would have happened – the Middle East would now be a haven for terrorist groups which would be targeting British tourists on beaches when they go on their summer holidays. The whole Middle East would now be in turmoil. We'd be facing a refugee crisis with people fleeing all the countries that we hadn't destabilized. 

2. Jeremy Corbyn is a dangerous leftist. 

Just look at the sort of policies this man supports. He wants to re-nationalize the railways which have the highest fares in Europe. 

He wants to scrap university tuition fees which consign students to a lifetime of debt. He would like to make housing affordable for ordinary people. 

He wants an economy to suit the needs of the majority and not the 1%. 

He wants to keep the Sunday trading laws as they are and not introduce 24/7 shopping. He is opposed to illegal wars which kill hundreds of thousands of people and he does not want to bring back fox-hunting. Quite clearly the man is some kind of left-wing nutcase. 

3. Jeremy Corbyn has been critical of the US and Israel. 

Outrageously, Corbyn has criticized US foreign policy and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. He seems to think that the US and Israel have to abide by international law – and should be held accountable for their actions. The man is quite obviously a communist and as such should not become Britain's prime minister. 

4. Jeremy Corbyn has extremist links. 

Not only is Corbyn a dangerous radical himself, he also associates with dangerous extremists. He once spoke at a meeting where one of the other speakers had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once praised Joseph Stalin – proving undeniably that Corbyn is a Stalinist. 

Also on Twitter, Corbyn once retweeted a person who had once retweeted another person who had once retweeted another person who had retweeted a tweet from someone who I don't approve of – proving once again Corby's extremism. 

5. Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable. 

Jeremy Corbyn wants to do things which the majority of the British public wants, such as re-nationalize the railways and keep Britain out of Middle East wars. This makes him unelectable because politicians are only electable if they want to do things the public doesn't want. 

At the last election, Labour lost heavily to the anti-austerity SNP in Scotland and also lost lots of votes to the anti-austerity Greens. So it's obvious that to get these votes back, Labour needs a leader who supports austerity, and not someone who opposes it, like Corbyn.

I'm a very wealthy right-wing, pro-austerity warmonger, but believe me, I only want the best for Labour – which is to be a right-wing pro-austerity, pro-war party – barely distinguishable from the Tories. 

Having two main parties who have identical views on the main issues is what democracy is all about. Corbyn as Labour leader will be very different from the Conservatives, which would obviously be very bad for democracy as it would give the electorate a real choice. 

6. Jeremy Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s. 

In the 1970s the gap between the rich and poor was at its lowest in the UK's history. Living standards for ordinary people were rising all the time and large sections of the economy were in public ownership. The banks did not run the country and the taxation system was steeply progressive. 

Corbyn wants to take us back to these times! Think how disastrous that would be for rich people like me who would have to pay much higher rates of tax which would be redistributed to horrible working class-type people and people on middle incomes. The 1% would really suffer and the most talented people – like myself – and my neocon friends, would leave the country. That's what lies in store for us if Corbyn succeeds! 

7. Jeremy Corbyn would leave Britain defenseless and open to invasion. 

Corbyn has promised to scrap Trident. 

If Trident was scrapped there's no doubt that the Russians, Iranians, Syrians and Hezbollah would launch a full scale invasion of Britain within 45 minutes. 

Britain would be carved up between the 'Axis of Evil', with the Russians taking England, the Iranians Scotland and the Syrians, Wales (and Hezbollah in charge of Northern Ireland). 

Just imagine, Aberystywyth under the control of the evil dictator Bashar al-Assad. Russian troops patroling the streets of Godalming. Iran's Revolutionary Guard marching in Sauchiehall Street. A nightmare scenario indeed, but all this would be the reality if Corbyn gets his way. The very future of our country is at stake. 

8. Jeremy Corbyn once welcomed an article by John Pilger. 

In 2004, Jeremy Corbyn was one of 25 MPs who signed an Early Day Motion which welcomed a Pilger article on Kosovo. 

How outrageous! To think, a man who is now the leader of one of Britain's major parties once welcomed an article by John Pilger! 

No one who has ever cited John Pilger with approval – let alone signed a motion supporting him – should be allowed to stand for high public office in Britain. The freedom to hold and express views and opinions in a democracy should only apply to opinions and views that myself and fellow elite neocons approve of! And we most certainly do not approve of John Pilger! 

9. Jeremy Corbyn opposes austerity. 

Austerity is working brilliantly at the moment. 

It's provided a great excuse for the government to flog off remaining state assets at below their true market value to 'the right people' in the City. The welfare payments of lower-class people who have far too many children are being cut. Libraries and local authority services are being closed. Yet, guess what? The bearded one opposes all of this. He says that "austerity is a political choice, not an economic necessity." 

He wants to protect public services and libraries from cuts – and instead wants to crackdown on tax evasion and increase taxes on the very wealthy! I ask you – is this the sort of man we want leading Labour – or worse still, the country? 

And finally, but most importantly, the tenth commandment: 

10. Jeremy Corbyn is very popular.

...And if he succeeds, it's game over for me and my little clique of elite warmongers. We won't get our wars and we'll have to pay more taxes and it'll be all perfectly horrible! So, don't vote for Jeremy Corbyn, because although he'll be very good news for you – his success will be terrible for us!


Such an appalling person 🙄


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Cant be arsed to read it Phil but thanks for all that copy and paste 10 out of 10 for effort 👍👍


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Cant be arsed to read it Phil but thanks for all that copy and paste 10 out of 10 for effort 👍👍
		
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You’re an example of why people should have to pass a test to be allowed to vote.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You’re an example of why people should have to pass a test to be allowed to vote.
		
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Probably right, but I would pass it !


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Probably right, but I would pass it !
		
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Unlikely, you’re oblivious to things that might change your mind because you’re completely unmoving. My test would require people to demonstrate the understand the aims of the parties...


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Unlikely, you’re oblivious to things that might change your mind because you’re completely unmoving. My test would require people to demonstrate the understand the aims of the parties...
		
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Are you saying that you'd be setting the test? 

There's no hope for anyone, we're all doomed


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You’re an example of why people should have to pass a test to be allowed to vote.
		
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Down in Kent they are close to EDL.
They think that the immigration that they see, which are people jumping out of trucks will stop with Brexit. What they don’t understand is it will increase when the French stop using holding pens. 
You know if that’s what people want let them have it ... and when the moaning starts just say that’s what you wanted. Looking forward to the beaches having the sewage pumped back out onto them as well ..


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## User62651 (Dec 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A different tack. *Can anyone see the Libdems doing well? *By all accounts Swinson is a major turn off and their poll numbers have flatlined. Will they do well enough in key seats to make a difference?

They don't really register up here so I'm wondering if there is a positive vibe elsewhere?
		
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Should do ok here, always get a few Scottish seats and some in SW England. Their Holyrood leader cheeky Willie Rennie seems to have a bit of fan club up here. 
UK wide I think plenty of disaffected Tory and Labour voters that have nowhere else to put their votes this time will vote LD. Also think the tactical voting will help them where Labour and Lib Dem voters will choose best option to beat tory candidates rather than support own party. In 2017 there was a very strong 2 party vote, 42% v 40% I recall. Both main parties have performed poorly since summer 2017 imo, so perhaps that 2 party loyalty will be tested? Swinson is a bit bland but look who she's up against! Don't discount significant female support too, must be many fed up with Johnson particularly.

LDs do register where I am, long time LD seat until 2015, in 2017 only a 2k majority for SNP over LDs so could be a closer one this time - waste of a vote going red or blue here, neither have any chance at all, so only 2 shades of yellow, so tactically LDs should get all the anti SNP vote. Although it is claimed to be the Brexit election, that is not the case up here, it will be a Indy/Union contest as it always is. Tedious. 

Johnson's hustings have been weak imo, not as weak as May's in 2017 though and although i expect him to pick up seats in England he may well lose 10+ in Scotland without RuthD (who also hates Johnson) and perhaps some in Wales, also will not be able to count on DUP support with his current deal unacceptable to them, if it does end up a hung parliament.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Down in Kent they are close to EDL.
They think that the immigration that they see, which are people jumping out of trucks will stop with Brexit. What they don’t understand is it will increase when the French stop using holding pens. 
You know if that’s what people want let them have it ... and when the moaning starts just say that’s what you wanted. Looking forward to the beaches having the sewage pumped back out onto them as well ..
		
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Yes of course we are all thick, dont understand what's going on in the world and I, for one, am so pleased that there are such expert people on a golf forum to put us right.


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes of course we are all thick, dont understand what's going on in the world and I, for one, am so pleased that there are such expert people on a golf forum to put us right.
		
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You might not be thick but you won’t even listen to the arguments from the other side.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes of course we are all thick, dont understand what's going on in the world and I, for one, am so pleased that there are such expert people on a golf forum to put us right.
		
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It’s always a pleasure.. don’t turn your tape off and please remember to lift the toilet cover the next time you use it or ask someone who can.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			or ask someone who can. 

Click to expand...

Not you then!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Not you then!
		
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Correct,  cos I would not help you


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct,  cos I would not help you
		
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Typical Labour supporter then 🤔🤔


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s wrong ? Is that all you can answer ? You are very vocal against Corbyn and Labour which is your right but surely when someone ask for reasons why you call someone “appalling” you must have them to hand ? No ?

I’ll help you out -

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/music3/707-bruce-springsteen-the-wall

Below are Mr Waugh-Monger's ten commandments telling UK electors why they should not, under any circumstances, vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

1. Jeremy Corbyn wants to 'stop the war'.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the bombing of Yugoslavia. He opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. He was against the invasion of Iraq. He was against bombing Libya and also voted against military action in Syria.

I ask you – is this the sort of man who is fit to be prime minister?

If Corbyn – heaven forbid – had been British Prime Minister in 2003 he would not have committed British troops to the invasion of Iraq. Just imagine what would have happened if we hadn't invaded Iraq! Well, I'll tell you what would have happened – the Middle East would now be a haven for terrorist groups which would be targeting British tourists on beaches when they go on their summer holidays. The whole Middle East would now be in turmoil. We'd be facing a refugee crisis with people fleeing all the countries that we hadn't destabilized.

2. Jeremy Corbyn is a dangerous leftist.

Just look at the sort of policies this man supports. He wants to re-nationalize the railways which have the highest fares in Europe.

He wants to scrap university tuition fees which consign students to a lifetime of debt. He would like to make housing affordable for ordinary people.

He wants an economy to suit the needs of the majority and not the 1%.

He wants to keep the Sunday trading laws as they are and not introduce 24/7 shopping. He is opposed to illegal wars which kill hundreds of thousands of people and he does not want to bring back fox-hunting. Quite clearly the man is some kind of left-wing nutcase.

3. Jeremy Corbyn has been critical of the US and Israel.

Outrageously, Corbyn has criticized US foreign policy and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. He seems to think that the US and Israel have to abide by international law – and should be held accountable for their actions. The man is quite obviously a communist and as such should not become Britain's prime minister.

4. Jeremy Corbyn has extremist links.

Not only is Corbyn a dangerous radical himself, he also associates with dangerous extremists. He once spoke at a meeting where one of the other speakers had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once praised Joseph Stalin – proving undeniably that Corbyn is a Stalinist.

Also on Twitter, Corbyn once retweeted a person who had once retweeted another person who had once retweeted another person who had retweeted a tweet from someone who I don't approve of – proving once again Corby's extremism.

5. Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to do things which the majority of the British public wants, such as re-nationalize the railways and keep Britain out of Middle East wars. This makes him unelectable because politicians are only electable if they want to do things the public doesn't want.

At the last election, Labour lost heavily to the anti-austerity SNP in Scotland and also lost lots of votes to the anti-austerity Greens. So it's obvious that to get these votes back, Labour needs a leader who supports austerity, and not someone who opposes it, like Corbyn.

I'm a very wealthy right-wing, pro-austerity warmonger, but believe me, I only want the best for Labour – which is to be a right-wing pro-austerity, pro-war party – barely distinguishable from the Tories.

Having two main parties who have identical views on the main issues is what democracy is all about. Corbyn as Labour leader will be very different from the Conservatives, which would obviously be very bad for democracy as it would give the electorate a real choice.

6. Jeremy Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s.

In the 1970s the gap between the rich and poor was at its lowest in the UK's history. Living standards for ordinary people were rising all the time and large sections of the economy were in public ownership. The banks did not run the country and the taxation system was steeply progressive.

Corbyn wants to take us back to these times! Think how disastrous that would be for rich people like me who would have to pay much higher rates of tax which would be redistributed to horrible working class-type people and people on middle incomes. The 1% would really suffer and the most talented people – like myself – and my neocon friends, would leave the country. That's what lies in store for us if Corbyn succeeds!

7. Jeremy Corbyn would leave Britain defenseless and open to invasion.

Corbyn has promised to scrap Trident.

If Trident was scrapped there's no doubt that the Russians, Iranians, Syrians and Hezbollah would launch a full scale invasion of Britain within 45 minutes.

Britain would be carved up between the 'Axis of Evil', with the Russians taking England, the Iranians Scotland and the Syrians, Wales (and Hezbollah in charge of Northern Ireland).

Just imagine, Aberystywyth under the control of the evil dictator Bashar al-Assad. Russian troops patroling the streets of Godalming. Iran's Revolutionary Guard marching in Sauchiehall Street. A nightmare scenario indeed, but all this would be the reality if Corbyn gets his way. The very future of our country is at stake.

8. Jeremy Corbyn once welcomed an article by John Pilger.

In 2004, Jeremy Corbyn was one of 25 MPs who signed an Early Day Motion which welcomed a Pilger article on Kosovo.

How outrageous! To think, a man who is now the leader of one of Britain's major parties once welcomed an article by John Pilger!

No one who has ever cited John Pilger with approval – let alone signed a motion supporting him – should be allowed to stand for high public office in Britain. The freedom to hold and express views and opinions in a democracy should only apply to opinions and views that myself and fellow elite neocons approve of! And we most certainly do not approve of John Pilger!

9. Jeremy Corbyn opposes austerity.

Austerity is working brilliantly at the moment.

It's provided a great excuse for the government to flog off remaining state assets at below their true market value to 'the right people' in the City. The welfare payments of lower-class people who have far too many children are being cut. Libraries and local authority services are being closed. Yet, guess what? The bearded one opposes all of this. He says that "austerity is a political choice, not an economic necessity."

He wants to protect public services and libraries from cuts – and instead wants to crackdown on tax evasion and increase taxes on the very wealthy! I ask you – is this the sort of man we want leading Labour – or worse still, the country?

And finally, but most importantly, the tenth commandment:

10. Jeremy Corbyn is very popular.

...And if he succeeds, it's game over for me and my little clique of elite warmongers. We won't get our wars and we'll have to pay more taxes and it'll be all perfectly horrible! So, don't vote for Jeremy Corbyn, because although he'll be very good news for you – his success will be terrible for us!


Such an appalling person 🙄
		
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I agree with both you and Chris. Its politics and its down to opinions. 

If Chris doesn't want to qualify his opinion, he doesn't have to. Its his opinion.

Personally, for all the published material on Corbyn's past I still can't say I 'know' him. He says so many things I agree with but has so many things on his CV I disagree with. With Johnson its a lot easier. He's Trump-lite for me. How on earth he's reached the position he has floors me. But I could also say the same about Corbyn.

But, like Chris, its just my opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with both you and Chris. Its politics and its down to opinions.

If Chris doesn't want to qualify his opinion, he doesn't have to. Its his opinion.

Personally, for all the published material on Corbyn's past I still can't say I 'know' him. He says so many things I agree with but has so many things on his CV I disagree with. With Johnson its a lot easier. He's Trump-lite for me. How on earth he's reached the position he has floors me. But I could also say the same about Corbyn.

But, like Chris, its just my opinion.
		
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I have no issues with his opinion on why he wouldn’t vote or support Labour etc - he is in Tory heartland etc so it’s always going to be Tory - Kent will always be Tory 

But for me all over the Internet you have people throwing derogatory comments towards certain politicians- and calling Corbyn all these names is one , but when you ask “why” he is an “appalling” person ( when it’s stated as if it’s a fact ) you don’t get any reasons and nothing but deflection posts as can be seen from Chris responses on here. I suspect the deflection posts are because he can’t actually provide the reasons. Just look at Corbyns beliefs - he wants total peace around the world , it maybe pure fantasy but how can someone like that be “appalling” 

It’s the same if I called Boris appalling and didn’t give a reason - people would think the same about me 

But the internet is full of all these comments and “fake news” pictures and memes etc and people think they are all gospel and truth - so people then start to grab these things and make them “fact” 

This election campaign has lowered itself to who can drag up the worse level of derogatory remarks about the opposing party - it has been nithing about the manifestos and what the future could be.

I pity the nation having to chose between the two of them and shows for me what a poor state our politics is in


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## Mudball (Dec 8, 2019)

Calm down ladies....


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2019)

This is what a real politician looks and sounds like, bet you wish you could vote for her.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203754591973568513


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-data-sales-american-pharma-lack-transparency

So can this happen ? Selling data ?


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issues with his opinion on why he wouldn’t vote or support Labour etc - he is in Tory heartland etc so it’s always going to be Tory - Kent will always be Tory 

But for me all over the Internet you have people throwing derogatory comments towards certain politicians- and calling Corbyn all these names is one , but when you ask “why” he is an “appalling” person ( when it’s stated as if it’s a fact ) you don’t get any reasons and nothing but deflection posts as can be seen from Chris responses on here. I suspect the deflection posts are because he can’t actually provide the reasons. Just look at Corbyns beliefs - he wants total peace around the world , it maybe pure fantasy but how can someone like that be “appalling” 

It’s the same if I called Boris appalling and didn’t give a reason - people would think the same about me 

But the internet is full of all these comments and “fake news” pictures and memes etc and people think they are all gospel and truth - so people then start to grab these things and make them “fact” 

This election campaign has lowered itself to who can drag up the worse level of derogatory remarks about the opposing party - it has been nithing about the manifestos and what the future could be.

I pity the nation having to chose between the two of them and shows for me what a poor state our politics is in
		
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 Phil, you just dont get it. It's not because I cant give the reasons to support my views it's  simply that you have been down this path on many subjects with many posters and occasionally me, and you'll keep on and on until you piss me off, it won't get resolved, you won't change your position even if I could prove you wrong in a high court and we'll agree in the end to agree to disagree. 

So, I'm just saving all that time wasting 😀


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issues with his opinion on why he wouldn’t vote or support Labour etc - he is in Tory heartland etc so it’s always going to be Tory - Kent will always be Tory

But for me all over the Internet you have people throwing derogatory comments towards certain politicians- and calling Corbyn all these names is one , but when you ask “why” he is an “appalling” person ( when it’s stated as if it’s a fact ) you don’t get any reasons and nothing but deflection posts as can be seen from Chris responses on here. I suspect the deflection posts are because he can’t actually provide the reasons. Just look at Corbyns beliefs - he wants total peace around the world , it maybe pure fantasy but how can someone like that be “appalling”

It’s the same if I called Boris appalling and didn’t give a reason - people would think the same about me

But the internet is full of all these comments and “fake news” pictures and memes etc and people think they are all gospel and truth - so people then start to grab these things and make them “fact”

This election campaign has lowered itself to who can drag up the worse level of derogatory remarks about the opposing party - it has been nithing about the manifestos and what the future could be.

I pity the nation having to chose between the two of them and shows for me what a poor state our politics is in
		
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But won't Chris reasons be opinions based on what he's read/seen/heard? And, equally, you may feel that Corbyn is ok, based on the same information that Chris uses to say he's appalling. Chris could tell you why but you, using the same information, might say he's way off the mark. Who's right? Neither of you? Both of you?

Lets look at one example. Corbyn met Gerry Adams and Michael McGuinness. People split hairs on whether or not McGuinness was still the Northern Commander for the IRA at that time, and didn't leave the IRA till after world opinion turned against the IRA following the Enniskillen bombing. Some say Corbyn was acting as a peacemaker, whilst others say he was a traitor. Some will say it was an act of an appalling man. Are they wrong? Bear in mind its subjective. Both are right?

Corbyn wanting world peace... but at what cost? Some people would accept anything to achieve world peace, others not so. WW2 could have been stopped in 1940 if Churchill had agreed to sue for peace... hero or (appalling) villain? If Churchill had agreed to surrender in 1940, under the terms offered by Germany via Mussolini, what would have happened in Auschwitz and Buchenwald? Hero or (appalling) villain?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You might not be thick but you won’t even listen to the arguments from the other side.
		
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How ironic.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-data-sales-american-pharma-lack-transparency

So can this happen ? Selling data ?
		
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And thank God they did sell the data.

First of all, its anonymised. Its just numbers of people suffering certain conditions, not who they are. The article makes that very clear.

Secondly, would you, as a manufacturer of anything, make something without knowing the potential demand?

I'm not sure what point the article is trying to make but if its about selling patient data to drug companies is horrendously wrong it fails miserably to realise that it achieves two things. It generates money for the anonymised data. It helps a manufacturer focus research and creation of the drugs needed to cure people of their ills.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But won't Chris reasons be opinions based on what he's read/seen/heard? And, equally, you may feel that Corbyn is ok, based on the same information that Chris uses to say he's appalling. Chris could tell you why but you, using the same information, might say he's way off the mark. Who's right? Neither of you? Both of you?
		
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But I don’t know the reasons why people keep calling him appalling ? It’s just an insult at the moment with no substance behind it. No reasons have been given - just a statement of apparent fact. I just asked why he is supposed to be an “appalling person “ - I asked the same question the other day and the poster admitted that he had gone over the top and it’s was based just on not agreeing with his beliefs.

You even asked the same question yourself - is he really an “appalling man” 



			Lets look at one example. Corbyn met Gerry Adams and Michael McGuinness. People split hairs on whether or not McGuinness was still the Northern Commander for the IRA at that time, and didn't leave the IRA till after world opinion turned against the IRA following the Enniskillen bombing. Some say Corbyn was acting as a peacemaker, whilst others say he was a traitor. Some will say it was an act of an appalling man. Are they wrong? Bear in mind its subjective. Both are right?
		
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The only person that will know will be Corbyn himself - there hasn’t been enough information about these “meetings” - some day it started the process of peace off. Why else would a pacifist meet terrorists ? What was his reasons beyond trying to find a way to get peace ?

For me I don’t believe he had a mandate to look for peace talks but it was his beliefs that made him look for a way - right or wrong ? Who knows 




			Corbyn wanting world peace... but at what cost? Some people would accept anything to achieve world peace, others not so. WW2 could have been stopped in 1940 if Churchill had agreed to sue for peace... hero or (appalling) villain? If Churchill had agreed to surrender in 1940, under the terms offered by Germany via Mussolini, what would have happened in Auschwitz and Buchenwald? Hero or (appalling) villain?
		
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I’m no Corbyn fan - far from it , I certainly won’t be voting for him because I’m don’t believe he is right person to lead the country and I seriously question his judgement when I look at some of his picks for his shadow cabinet 

But for me as I stated the whole thing right now isn’t about manifestos and what each party can do - it’s about throwing insults and fake news and derogatory comments And there appears to be far too many people going to vote based on these complete rubbish posted all over social media 

It’s now impossible to have a “clean election campaign “ a it’s nothing but smear and insults. It seems that when someone is challenged when they post one of these statements they can’t provide the substance behind it - that for me sums up the whole political outlook in the UK right now - lots of hot air with zero substance


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-data-sales-american-pharma-lack-transparency

So can this happen ? Selling data ?
		
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Yes it can and it explains in the article why and how the data can be used to improve products and services. Is that a problem for you or would you prefer to believe it's used to help sell off the Nhs. As previously pointed out to you all this is subjective and we can make up our minds what we want to believe.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And thank God they did sell the data.

First of all, its anonymised. Its just numbers of people suffering certain conditions, not who they are. The article makes that very clear.

Secondly, would you, as a manufacturer of anything, make something without knowing the potential demand?

I'm not sure what point the article is trying to make but if its about selling patient data to drug companies is horrendously wrong it fails miserably to realise that it achieves two things. It generates money for the anonymised data. It helps a manufacturer focus research and creation of the drugs needed to cure people of their ills.
		
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Cheers 👍 seen two different opinions about it and it seemed to be something that has happened for a long time , with drug companies requiring some sort of data. 

But the question I would ask - is it something that we should know about when visiting medical facilities etc ? 


SocketRocket said:



			Yes it can and it explains in the article why and how the data can be used to improve products and services. Is that a problem for you or would you prefer to believe it's used to help sell off the Nhs. As previously pointed out to you all this is subjective and we can make up our minds what we want to believe.
		
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What are you talking about ?! Where did I say anything about selling the NHS off or tell you what to believe. Maybe take a step back for once


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Down in Kent they are close to EDL.
They think that the immigration that they see, which are people jumping out of trucks will stop with Brexit. What they don’t understand is it will increase when the French stop using holding pens.
You know if that’s what people want let them have it ... and when the moaning starts just say that’s what you wanted. Looking forward to the beaches having the sewage pumped back out onto them as well ..
		
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You missed the bit about them wanting to exterminate millions of people in gas chambers due to their points based immigration system


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## pauljames87 (Dec 8, 2019)




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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You missed the bit about them wanting to exterminate millions of people in gas chambers due to their points based immigration system
		
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Is that in the EDL to do list??


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I don’t know the reasons why people keep calling him appalling ? It’s just an insult at the moment with no substance behind it. No reasons have been given - just a statement of apparent fact. I just asked why he is supposed to be an “appalling person “ - I asked the same question the other day and the poster admitted that he had gone over the top and it’s was based just on not agreeing with his beliefs.

You even asked the same question yourself - is he really an “appalling man”


The only person that will know will be Corbyn himself - there hasn’t been enough information about these “meetings” - some day it started the process of peace off. Why else would a pacifist meet terrorists ? What was his reasons beyond trying to find a way to get peace ?

For me I don’t believe he had a mandate to look for peace talks but it was his beliefs that made him look for a way - right or wrong ? Who knows



I’m no Corbyn fan - far from it , I certainly won’t be voting for him because I’m don’t believe he is right person to lead the country and I seriously question his judgement when I look at some of his picks for his shadow cabinet

But for me as I stated the whole thing right now isn’t about manifestos and what each party can do - it’s about throwing insults and fake news and derogatory comments And there appears to be far too many people going to vote based on these complete rubbish posted all over social media

It’s now impossible to have a “clean election campaign “ a it’s nothing but smear and insults. It seems that when someone is challenged when they post one of these statements they can’t provide the substance behind it - that for me sums up the whole political outlook in the UK right now - lots of hot air with zero substance
		
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"Is he appalling?"

Your definition of whats appalling isn't someone else's. Its that simple. You arguing it to the nth degree doesn't change whether you're right or Chris is right. You're only defining what you believe is or isn't appalling.

Here's an off the cuff thought; why not respect Chris's opinion of Corbyn, which you can do without agreeing with it. Corbyn is, after all, an extreme left wing politician who admires the way Venezuela is run. That's not far short of appalling to me.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I don’t know the reasons why people keep calling him appalling ? It’s just an insult at the moment with no substance behind it. No reasons have been given - just a statement of apparent fact. I just asked why he is supposed to be an “appalling person “ - I asked the same question the other day and the poster admitted that he had gone over the top and it’s was based just on not agreeing with his beliefs.

You even asked the same question yourself - is he really an “appalling man”


The only person that will know will be Corbyn himself - there hasn’t been enough information about these “meetings” - some day it started the process of peace off. Why else would a pacifist meet terrorists ? What was his reasons beyond trying to find a way to get peace ?

For me I don’t believe he had a mandate to look for peace talks but it was his beliefs that made him look for a way - right or wrong ? Who knows
		
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If he was really looking for peace talks why is it that he only ever met one side? You can't negotiate peace between two parties if you are only meeting with one of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"Is he appalling?"

Your definition of whats appalling isn't someone else's. Its that simple. You arguing it to the nth degree doesn't change whether you're right or Chris is right. You're only defining what you believe is or isn't appalling.

Here's an off the cuff thought; why not respect Chris's opinion of Corbyn, which you can do without agreeing with it. Corbyn is, after all, an extreme left wing politician who admires the way Venezuela is run. That's not far short of appalling to me.
		
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Sorry but you miss the point 

someone made a statement “Corbyn really is an appalling person” - calling someone appalling is derogatory 

So I asked “Why is Corbyn an appalling person “ - that’s all , nothing else just a simple question 

I thought if someone posted such a statement of fact then they would be able to provide why the see Jeremy Corbyn as an appalling person but the response was nothing but deflection away from the statement and instead pointing fingers at me. Nothing was argued about what someone deems appalling because they didn’t actually say why they see him as appalling. 

Is that what it has got to now with these threads where you can’t ask a question in regards someone making a statement , i didn’t say he was wrong or challenge his opinion - I just asked why 

But when someone just deflects and avoids that to me speaks volumes and I suspect if I went through the thread there will be lots of it all over the place. 

That’s social media now - I see it all over Facebook and Twitter , derogatory remarks ( Abbott being a big target ) , loads of these “funny” memes etc 

No one actually getting to a sensible debate about the merits of this policy over another policy. It’s just a complete mess.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If he was really looking for peace talks why is it that he only ever met one side? You can't negotiate peace between two parties if you are only meeting with one of them.
		
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Quite correct!

Why did he take 2 convicted IRA members to Parliament only 2 weeks after the Brighton bombing?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If he was really looking for peace talks why is it that he only ever met one side? You can't negotiate peace between two parties if you are only meeting with one of them.
		
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Northern Ireland politics was/is a lot more complicated and certainly more than just two sides.

As I said who knows what went on in these meetings

But if it wasn’t trying to find a way to start peace off what else would Corbyn be meeting them for ?

And it was also well known that the government at the time were also keeping back channels open to the IRA


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If he was really looking for peace talks why is it that he only ever met one side? You can't negotiate peace between two parties if you are only meeting with one of them.
		
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He met both sides, Mo Mowlam used him as a contact for both sides and he was praised by Ian Paisley for his role in the Peace Process.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

Maria Gatland anyone?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite correct!

Why did he take 2 convicted IRA members to Parliament only 2 weeks after the Brighton bombing?
		
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He’s incorrect Chris.


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## Cherry13 (Dec 8, 2019)

Out of interest. who is voting based on there local candidate, rather than the leader of the party?


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			He’s incorrect Chris.
		
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If you say so Paul 

But why did he do what I said?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

Corbyn was never authorised by anyone to make contact and look for Peace with the IRA, yes other Politicians held secret meetings, but they were instructed to by the Government of the day.
Only he can state his motive and the reasons he took part in the 2 minute silences etc.
He was then used by Blair and Mo Mowlam as a go between in the Goid Friday agreement.
I have my doubts about him and his motives on many issues and look forward to the day he steps down as leader of the Labour Party, but there is a lot of misinformation about him out there and on some issues he’s badly failed to help himself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

Cherry13 said:



			Out of interest. who is voting based on there local candidate, rather than the leader of the party?
		
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Me, Not been easy as I’ve voted for an independent in local elections, but they have not put anyone forward for the GE.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s wrong ? Is that all you can answer ? You are very vocal against Corbyn and Labour which is your right but surely when someone ask for reasons why you call someone “appalling” you must have them to hand ? No ?

I’ll help you out -

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/music3/707-bruce-springsteen-the-wall

Below are Mr Waugh-Monger's ten commandments telling UK electors why they should not, under any circumstances, vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

1. Jeremy Corbyn wants to 'stop the war'.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the bombing of Yugoslavia. He opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. He was against the invasion of Iraq. He was against bombing Libya and also voted against military action in Syria.

I ask you – is this the sort of man who is fit to be prime minister?

If Corbyn – heaven forbid – had been British Prime Minister in 2003 he would not have committed British troops to the invasion of Iraq. Just imagine what would have happened if we hadn't invaded Iraq! Well, I'll tell you what would have happened – the Middle East would now be a haven for terrorist groups which would be targeting British tourists on beaches when they go on their summer holidays. The whole Middle East would now be in turmoil. We'd be facing a refugee crisis with people fleeing all the countries that we hadn't destabilized.

2. Jeremy Corbyn is a dangerous leftist.

Just look at the sort of policies this man supports. He wants to re-nationalize the railways which have the highest fares in Europe.

He wants to scrap university tuition fees which consign students to a lifetime of debt. He would like to make housing affordable for ordinary people.

He wants an economy to suit the needs of the majority and not the 1%.

He wants to keep the Sunday trading laws as they are and not introduce 24/7 shopping. He is opposed to illegal wars which kill hundreds of thousands of people and he does not want to bring back fox-hunting. Quite clearly the man is some kind of left-wing nutcase.

3. Jeremy Corbyn has been critical of the US and Israel.

Outrageously, Corbyn has criticized US foreign policy and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. He seems to think that the US and Israel have to abide by international law – and should be held accountable for their actions. The man is quite obviously a communist and as such should not become Britain's prime minister.

4. Jeremy Corbyn has extremist links.

Not only is Corbyn a dangerous radical himself, he also associates with dangerous extremists. He once spoke at a meeting where one of the other speakers had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once shared a platform with a speaker who had once praised Joseph Stalin – proving undeniably that Corbyn is a Stalinist.

Also on Twitter, Corbyn once retweeted a person who had once retweeted another person who had once retweeted another person who had retweeted a tweet from someone who I don't approve of – proving once again Corby's extremism.

5. Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to do things which the majority of the British public wants, such as re-nationalize the railways and keep Britain out of Middle East wars. This makes him unelectable because politicians are only electable if they want to do things the public doesn't want.

At the last election, Labour lost heavily to the anti-austerity SNP in Scotland and also lost lots of votes to the anti-austerity Greens. So it's obvious that to get these votes back, Labour needs a leader who supports austerity, and not someone who opposes it, like Corbyn.

I'm a very wealthy right-wing, pro-austerity warmonger, but believe me, I only want the best for Labour – which is to be a right-wing pro-austerity, pro-war party – barely distinguishable from the Tories.

Having two main parties who have identical views on the main issues is what democracy is all about. Corbyn as Labour leader will be very different from the Conservatives, which would obviously be very bad for democracy as it would give the electorate a real choice.

6. Jeremy Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s.

In the 1970s the gap between the rich and poor was at its lowest in the UK's history. Living standards for ordinary people were rising all the time and large sections of the economy were in public ownership. The banks did not run the country and the taxation system was steeply progressive.

Corbyn wants to take us back to these times! Think how disastrous that would be for rich people like me who would have to pay much higher rates of tax which would be redistributed to horrible working class-type people and people on middle incomes. The 1% would really suffer and the most talented people – like myself – and my neocon friends, would leave the country. That's what lies in store for us if Corbyn succeeds!

7. Jeremy Corbyn would leave Britain defenseless and open to invasion.

Corbyn has promised to scrap Trident.

If Trident was scrapped there's no doubt that the Russians, Iranians, Syrians and Hezbollah would launch a full scale invasion of Britain within 45 minutes.

Britain would be carved up between the 'Axis of Evil', with the Russians taking England, the Iranians Scotland and the Syrians, Wales (and Hezbollah in charge of Northern Ireland).

Just imagine, Aberystywyth under the control of the evil dictator Bashar al-Assad. Russian troops patroling the streets of Godalming. Iran's Revolutionary Guard marching in Sauchiehall Street. A nightmare scenario indeed, but all this would be the reality if Corbyn gets his way. The very future of our country is at stake.

8. Jeremy Corbyn once welcomed an article by John Pilger.

In 2004, Jeremy Corbyn was one of 25 MPs who signed an Early Day Motion which welcomed a Pilger article on Kosovo.

How outrageous! To think, a man who is now the leader of one of Britain's major parties once welcomed an article by John Pilger!

No one who has ever cited John Pilger with approval – let alone signed a motion supporting him – should be allowed to stand for high public office in Britain. The freedom to hold and express views and opinions in a democracy should only apply to opinions and views that myself and fellow elite neocons approve of! And we most certainly do not approve of John Pilger!

9. Jeremy Corbyn opposes austerity.

Austerity is working brilliantly at the moment.

It's provided a great excuse for the government to flog off remaining state assets at below their true market value to 'the right people' in the City. The welfare payments of lower-class people who have far too many children are being cut. Libraries and local authority services are being closed. Yet, guess what? The bearded one opposes all of this. He says that "austerity is a political choice, not an economic necessity."

He wants to protect public services and libraries from cuts – and instead wants to crackdown on tax evasion and increase taxes on the very wealthy! I ask you – is this the sort of man we want leading Labour – or worse still, the country?

And finally, but most importantly, the tenth commandment:

10. Jeremy Corbyn is very popular.

...And if he succeeds, it's game over for me and my little clique of elite warmongers. We won't get our wars and we'll have to pay more taxes and it'll be all perfectly horrible! So, don't vote for Jeremy Corbyn, because although he'll be very good news for you – his success will be terrible for us!


Such an appalling person 🙄
		
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Since you seem to be suffering from selective memory tonight have a little reminder why most decent British people find him appalling...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143861403092246528


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If you say so Paul

But why did he do what I said?
		
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I don’t get the flippant remark mate, it’s a sensible discussion and easily googled.

Again Chris I could only repeat the reason he gave, do I believe him? Not sure in all honesty.
They were convicted IRA members who’d claimed to have put violence behind them and moved in to politics.

I would certainly agree the timing was a shocker.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but you miss the point

someone made a statement “Corbyn really is an appalling person” - calling someone appalling is derogatory

So I asked “Why is Corbyn an appalling person “ - that’s all , nothing else just a simple question

I thought if someone posted such a statement of fact then they would be able to provide why the see Jeremy Corbyn as an appalling person but the response was nothing but deflection away from the statement and instead pointing fingers at me. Nothing was argued about what someone deems appalling because they didn’t actually say why they see him as appalling.

Is that what it has got to now with these threads where you can’t ask a question in regards someone making a statement , i didn’t say he was wrong or challenge his opinion - I just asked why

But when someone just deflects and avoids that to me speaks volumes and I suspect if I went through the thread there will be lots of it all over the place.

That’s social media now - I see it all over Facebook and Twitter , derogatory remarks ( Abbott being a big target ) , loads of these “funny” memes etc

No one actually getting to a sensible debate about the merits of this policy over another policy. It’s just a complete mess.
		
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Please stop being a drama queen. This is a golf forum where a number of people like to express opinions and views that sometimes have contradictions sometimes gut feelings, sometimes deep convictions and sometimes thought provoking or thoughtless provoking or even very subjective statements because they have some time on their hands and have decided to vent their frustrations/asperations/felisitations/whatever.  If you feel like joining in then do so, otherwise dont.  Its best if people are respectful to each other but as they often are not then there may be spates of virtual fisticuffs to which the ref may blow his whistle or send to the sinbin.
Its not compulsory reading and if someone thinks Corbers or Boris is a Twazzock and you disagree then explain why but please stop the saintimonious castigation  routine. By all means despair at the depraved depths golf forums and social media in general have descended to , even have a self flagulatory rant now and then but please stop being so precious.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Since you seem to be suffering from selective memory tonight have a little reminder why *most decent British people find him appalling...*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143861403092246528

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Rather generic dont you think ? 

So decent people find him appalling because Theresa May says he doesn’t back Britain ? 


pauldj42 said:



			I don’t get the flippant remark mate, it’s a sensible discussion and easily googled.

Again Chris I could only repeat the reason he gave, do I believe him? Not sure in all honesty.
They were convicted IRA members who’d claimed to have put violence behind them and moved in to politics.

I would certainly agree the timing was a shocker.
		
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His timing was poor , something that he has done many times in the past and will do. 

Labour won’t win an election whilst he is the leader 

Not because of his policy’s or the manifestos or their beliefs but because of him and his choices in the shadow cabinet 

Corbyn has held his seat for a long time and they seem happy with him but his public image is poor - ever since he became leader he has been battered ( rightly or wrongly ) from pillar to post with everything from his apparent “Terrorist Sympathies” to having wonky glasses , over the decades he has made some proper media own goals despite what appears to be good intentions. The fact he won this peace award is largely ignored.

Johnson is very lucky - a stronger labour leader would have Johnson out on his arse now.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t get the flippant remark mate, it’s a sensible discussion and easily googled.

Again Chris I could only repeat the reason he gave, do I believe him? Not sure in all honesty.
They were convicted IRA members who’d claimed to have put violence behind them and moved in to politics.

I would certainly agree the timing was a shocker.
		
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I certainly didn't intend anything to be flippant Paul and if you read it as such I apologise


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but you miss the point

someone made a statement “Corbyn really is an appalling person” - calling someone appalling is derogatory

So I asked “Why is Corbyn an appalling person “ - that’s all , nothing else just a simple question

I thought if someone posted such a statement of fact then they would be able to provide why the see Jeremy Corbyn as an appalling person but the response was nothing but deflection away from the statement and instead pointing fingers at me. Nothing was argued about what someone deems appalling because they didn’t actually say why they see him as appalling.

Is that what it has got to now with these threads where you can’t ask a question in regards someone making a statement , i didn’t say he was wrong or challenge his opinion - I just asked why

But when someone just deflects and avoids that to me speaks volumes and I suspect if I went through the thread there will be lots of it all over the place.

That’s social media now - I see it all over Facebook and Twitter , derogatory remarks ( Abbott being a big target ) , loads of these “funny” memes etc

No one actually getting to a sensible debate about the merits of this policy over another policy. It’s just a complete mess.
		
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Sorry but you miss the point also. And its quite a fundamental point which you often miss when debating. He answered you. You didn't like his answer but he answered you. He even defined what you would do, which you are doing now. You are looking to break it down to your version of what the structure of the answer should look like. Sorry but how he answers is his choice. And it isn't a statement of fact, as you say, its an opinion.

If someone says, "that's a horse," its definitive. You can argue a definitive, yes it is, no it isn't. And the answer is an absolute. If someone says its an appalling horse, you can argue it is or it isn't but neither can be proven right or wrong. Why? Because "appalling" is subjective.

And you saying its a statement of fact so that you can argue it definitively right or wrong kinda looks a little silly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2019)

Nothing personal to anyone, I’m out this thread.
What ever the result come friday morning, I genuinely believe it will get no better over the next 3-5yrs regardless of who wins.
I don’t know how it will (if ever) be resolved. 
I just don’t see either of the main parties being positive for the nation as a whole or bringing it together, even in a small way.


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How ironic.
		
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It isn’t though, is it? I just rarely change my mind but I always challenge my own views. Chris is showing himself up as the typical little Englander; myopic, insular and pretty repugnant.


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nothing personal to anyone, I’m out this thread.
What ever the result come friday morning, I genuinely believe it will get no better over the next 3-5yrs regardless of who wins.
I don’t know how it will (if ever) be resolved. 
I just don’t see either of the main parties being positive for the nation as a whole or bringing it together, even in a small way.
		
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How about an alternative  view Paul

Boris gets a working majority and we leave the EU 31st January 
We agree a Canada ++ deal inside a year
We sort out some tariff free deals to take up supply of expensive EU products
We run our own country
Labour get rid of Corbyn, McDonnell etc al, so become a proper opposition who could govern
Boris proves the naysayers wrong and runs the country well
Scotland tell Wee Krankie that they'd rather not leave the Union as it's doing very well
Trump loses his election 

Alls well with the world


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It isn’t though, is it? I just rarely change my mind but I always challenge my own views. Chris is showing himself up as the typical little Englander; myopic, insular and pretty repugnant.
		
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That'll be me! 😋😋


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2019)

Today's posts have proved what we, as adults should all know. 

Politics like religion is about belief and fundamentally subjective so people have disagreed for centuries. Often leading to wars. 

If you can't allow others to hold different views it is best not to get into the discussion where everyone has to right to hold to their opinion if you're going to get uptight when that inevitability happens.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			How about an alternative  view Paul

Boris gets a working majority and we leave the EU 31st January
We agree a Canada ++ deal inside a year
We sort out some tariff free deals to take up supply of expensive EU products
We run our own country
Labour get rid of Corbyn, McDonnell etc al, so become a proper opposition who could govern
Boris proves the naysayers wrong and runs the country well
Scotland tell Wee Krankie that they'd rather not leave the Union as it's doing very well
Trump loses his election

Alls well with the world
		
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That's wonderful Chris but what about the so obviously failing NHS? And the failing social care system?

I was reading an article a few days back about the wealth of various regions in the EU. The wealthiest region in the EU is the south east of England. The average salaries are eye watering, and the infrastructure and amenities are very good. 

9 out of the 10 poorest regions in the EU are in the rest of the UK. The metrics for poorest were quite complex, looking at salaries, infrastructure and local amenities.

It made for shocking reading. There was no political bias in it. It was purely a fact based piece of research. 

I do wonder if many people in the southeast really know what the rest of the country looks like? Lets be honest, when people travel for social reasons they visit York Minster, Durhan Cathedral or the Lake District.


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## Wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Down in Kent they are close to EDL.
They think that the immigration that they see, which are people jumping out of trucks will stop with Brexit. What they don’t understand is it will increase when the French stop using holding pens.
You know if that’s what people want let them have it ... and when the moaning starts just say that’s what you wanted. Looking forward to the beaches having the sewage pumped back out onto them as well ..
		
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Nice generalisation of an entire county there. Is that because you don't like one poster or assume everyone from the good old Garden of England is a Xenophobic far right brexiteer that doesn't understand politics and instead just doesn't like Corbyn....

I can assure you as a Man of Kent you couldn't be further from the truth. Yes our County has its fair share of those people as do many others all over the country. But equally there are far more intelligent people that can and will make decisions during this GE based on policy, manifesto and doing so in a balanced way.

I won't vote labour because i believe their manifesto is in no way affordable without tax issues for everyone not just high earners, I won't vote Tory because of issue I have with their manifesto and brexit at any cost attitude. I don't like the leader of either party for varying reasons but that does not affect my vote because its not the leader im voting for in the GE but the party i feel best suits my own views and that's exactly  what many others in Kent will do to.

For the record Kent didnt even make it into the top 30 of places on record that voted to leave...

In fact there were 39 other locations above any kent constituency to vote leave and many far more north

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-36616028


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's wonderful Chris but what about the so obviously failing NHS? And the failing social care system?

I was reading an article a few days back about the wealth of various regions in the EU. The wealthiest region in the EU is the south east of England. The average salaries are eye watering, and the infrastructure and amenities are very good. 

9 out of the 10 poorest regions in the EU are in the rest of the UK. The metrics for poorest were quite complex, looking at salaries, infrastructure and local amenities.

It made for shocking reading. There was no political bias in it. It was purely a fact based piece of research. 

I do wonder if many people in the southeast really know what the rest of the country looks like? Lets be honest, when people travel for social reasons they visit York Minster, Durhan Cathedral or the Lake District.
		
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I guess I could have added dozens of other wishes but I agree with your ones of course. I live in the  South East and agree that wages are high but then also are the cost of housing, food, parking, rates, travel etc etc. I'm not able to compare other areas but certainly my house would be much cheaper in a lot of areas in the UK just to balance things up and this has an affect on mortgages, insurance, repairs etc etc too. 

I'm fully in favour of making other less well off counties more affluent and certainly reducing the emphasis on London and the South East but while wages are higher here the cost of living is too


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Nice generalisation of an entire county there. Is that because you don't like one poster or assume everyone from the good old Garden of England is a Xenophobic far right brexiteer that doesn't understand politics and instead just doesn't like Corbyn....

I can assure you as a Man of Kent you couldn't be further from the truth. Yes our County has its fair share of those people as do many others all over the country. But equally there are far more intelligent people that can and will make decisions during this GE based on policy, manifesto and doing so in a balanced way.

I won't vote labour because i believe their manifesto is in no way affordable without tax issues for everyone not just high earners, I won't vote Tory because of issue I have with their manifesto and brexit at any cost attitude. I don't like the leader of either party for varying reasons but that does not affect my vote because its not the leader im voting for in the GE but the party i feel best suits my own views and that's exactly  what many others in Kent will do to.

For the record Kent didnt even make it into the top of places on record that voted to leave...

In fact there were 39 other locations above any kent constituency to vote leave and many far more north

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-36616028

Click to expand...

Please Wolf let's not try and use real facts to convince Harpo, he obviously knows more about Kent than those who live here 😉


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## Wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Please Wolf let's not try and use real facts to convince Harpo, he obviously knows more about Kent than those who live here 😉
		
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You know what you're right best go put on my DMs, jeans, braces and gingham shirt, grab myself a can of Strongbow and go and gob off at the foreigners, thats what we kent folk do right 😂


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's wonderful Chris but what about the so obviously failing NHS? And the failing social care system?

I was reading an article a few days back about the wealth of various regions in the EU. The wealthiest region in the EU is the south east of England. The average salaries are eye watering, and the infrastructure and amenities are very good.

9 out of the 10 poorest regions in the EU are in the rest of the UK. The metrics for poorest were quite complex, looking at salaries, infrastructure and local amenities.

It made for shocking reading. There was no political bias in it. It was purely a fact based piece of research.

I do wonder if many people in the southeast really know what the rest of the country looks like? Lets be honest, when people travel for social reasons they visit York Minster, Durhan Cathedral or the Lake District.
		
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Is that really true about 9 out of the 10 poorest EU  regions are in the UK?    Even poorer than regions of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and so on.  OK the metrics may be complex but I think we all understand what a poor region is like.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You know what you're right best go put on my DMs, jeans, braces and gingham shirt, grab myself a can of Strongbow and go and gob off at the foreigners, thats what we kent folk do right 😂
		
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That would be after the EDL march then 😉


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It isn’t though, is it? I just rarely change my mind but I always challenge my own views. Chris is showing himself up as the typical little Englander; myopic, insular and pretty repugnant.
		
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So you are suggesting you are always right.   I would suggest you are showing yourself up as something much worse than that.


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is that really true about 9 out of the 10 poorest EU  regions are in the UK?    Even poorer than regions of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and so on.  OK the metrics may be complex but I think we all understand what a poor region is like.
		
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There's a report on the EU's own website, Eurostat, which details it. The report doesn't include the south Eastern European countries in the same detail but does look at income equality in those countries. It makes for damning reading.


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## Dando (Dec 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You know what you're right best go put on my DMs, jeans, braces and gingham shirt, grab myself a can of Strongbow and go and gob off at the foreigners, thats what we kent folk do right 😂
		
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We can make it the new Kent forum meet 😂


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Dando said:



			We can make it the new Kent forum fight 😂
		
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Corrected for you Dando 😉


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are suggesting you are always right.   I would suggest you are showing yourself up as something much worse than that.
		
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C'mon SR leave the precious little darling alone. 

Of course he knows much more than those of us who have actually lived through successive Labour/Tory governments and can readily see their traits. Started up and run our own businesses and run them through good and bad times, but ensuring the staff always got paid before I did.  Paid high rates of various taxes, seen wars and troubles but ended up as a Little Englander, myopic, insular and pretty repugnant. Hopefully one day he will realise that maybe we are just a little bit more experienced of life in the real world and that he really knows absolutely nothing about me to come to that judgement.


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## Dando (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Corrected for you Dando 😉
		
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I’ll bring the Stella!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It isn’t though, is it? I just rarely change my mind but I always challenge my own views. Chris is showing himself up as the typical little Englander; myopic, insular and pretty repugnant.
		
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Personal comments like this have no place on these boards.

Please resist the temptation yourselves or I will have to supply the resistance myself


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## Imurg (Dec 9, 2019)

Dando said:



			I’ll bring Stella..she's game!
		
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Or is she from Essex

Can't wait until Friday....all those who lost will say they won and go to court to prove it...
And some people on here have got way too much time on their hands...


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Or is she from Essex

Can't wait until Friday....all those who lost will say they won and go to court to prove it...
And some people on here have got way too much time on their hands...
		
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I wonder what the winning margin needs to be to stop the losers from demanding a GE re run?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Nice generalisation of an entire county there. Is that because you don't like one poster or assume everyone from the good old Garden of England is a Xenophobic far right brexiteer that doesn't understand politics and instead just doesn't like Corbyn....

I can assure you as a Man of Kent you couldn't be further from the truth. Yes our County has its fair share of those people as do many others all over the country. But equally there are far more intelligent people that can and will make decisions during this GE based on policy, manifesto and doing so in a balanced way.

I won't vote labour because i believe their manifesto is in no way affordable without tax issues for everyone not just high earners, I won't vote Tory because of issue I have with their manifesto and brexit at any cost attitude. I don't like the leader of either party for varying reasons but that does not affect my vote because its not the leader im voting for in the GE but the party i feel best suits my own views and that's exactly  what many others in Kent will do to.

For the record Kent didnt even make it into the top 30 of places on record that voted to leave...

In fact there were 39 other locations above any kent constituency to vote leave and many far more north

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-36616028

Click to expand...

I spent the majority of my life in Kent. I know the political lay of the land. The views expressed by ChrisD are quite common and i know you don’t like it .. but are very similar to the EDL.
Oh and incidentally when was the last time you saw the EDL in action? They have their skin head faction but they also have their overweight middle aged men in polo shirts and shorts faction.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Northern Ireland politics was/is a lot more complicated and certainly more than just two sides.

As I said who knows what went on in these meetings

But if it wasn’t trying to find a way to start peace off what else would Corbyn be meeting them for ?

And it was also well known that the government at the time were also keeping back channels open to the IRA
		
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I've no idea why he was meeting them but I wasn't only referring to Ireland. He's met with Hamas and Hezbollah and called them his friends, although he did try to later clarify that he hadn't used the term friends in the traditional sense and that he meant something else. The man, much like Boris, is a proven liar, so it's very difficult to trust anything he says, let alone when it comes to meeting what have been classified as terrorist organisations.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I spent the majority of my life in Kent. I know the political lay of the land. The views expressed by ChrisD are quite common and i know you don’t like it .. but are very similar to the EDL.
Oh and incidentally when was the last time you saw the EDL in action? They have their skin head faction but they also have their overweight middle aged men in polo shirts and shorts faction.
		
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I'd like, in my own defence, to point out that my views are expressed quite commonly on the forum by people from all over the country, and to hold conservative values over labour ones doesn't make me an EDL, Brexit Party, Fascist or any other radical party supporter. I just know that despite being bought up in a council house in Croydon in very poor circumstances that over my 67 years the Tory Party is, and generally has been, by far the best party to run the country economically. My opinion of course, but  I'd point out that other opinions are available


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Personal comments like this have no place on these boards.

Please resist the temptation yourselves or I will have to supply the resistance myself
		
Click to expand...

I’m not shocked that you picked my comment in particular to highlight this yet despite what I’ve said being based purely on someone’s political views in a political thread. Yet I was called a dick and that was fine and passed without comment. Play the ball, not the man.


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are suggesting you are always right.   I would suggest you are showing yourself up as something much worse than that.
		
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What an odd thing to say - who holds an opinion they think isn’t right? You wouldn’t hold that opinion if not. What an incredibly strange stance.


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I spent the majority of my life in Kent. I know the political lay of the land. The views expressed by ChrisD are quite common and i know you don’t like it .. but are very similar to the EDL.
Oh and incidentally when was the last time you saw the EDL in action? They have their skin head faction but they also have their overweight middle aged men in polo shirts and shorts faction.
		
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I don't get to see  EDL in action as im not a facist islamaphobic moron so sadly I think they'd reject me.

Also think you need consider there are many people here alone on thia forum that express views you suggest that are from all over the country and not a single  county. Also i am from Kent was born there in one of the worst known council estates outside of London in a family that was hugely hit by the recession yet won't see me voting Labour because of their manifesto is a nothing short of a fairy tale, you won't see me voting Tory because I don't believe in their values or there promises of their manifesto either yet out of the 2 big parties they are the better of the 2 currently.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The views expressed by ChrisD are quite common and i know you don’t like it .. but are very similar to the EDL.
		
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Possibly you could just indulge me, and point out which of my views are similar to the EDL, a group that I'm not personally familiar with in mid Kent


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			How about an alternative  view Paul

Boris gets a working majority and we leave the EU 31st January
We agree a Canada ++ deal inside a year
We sort out some tariff free deals to take up supply of expensive EU products
We run our own country
Labour get rid of Corbyn, McDonnell etc al, so become a proper opposition who could govern
Boris proves the naysayers wrong and runs the country well
Scotland tell Wee Krankie that they'd rather not leave the Union as it's doing very well
Trump loses his election

Alls well with the world
		
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I'd say 2, 3 at a push might happen.

To me it's more likely we turn into a deruglated economic wild west with workers rights getting even more eroded. Nothing has value anymore but just a price, society becomes even more fractured and divided as the gaps in society between those with and without will just get bigger and bigger.

Our leaders become ever more populist and are mostly interested in power itself and staying in power. They become more and more willing to mislead, avoid scrutiny, peddle increasingly unbelievable fantasies and easy answers to deliberately fool people to get them to vote for them, at times out right lie and set parts of the nation against itself to get power. And the concept of governing for the whole nation becomes ever more irrelevant.  But then again I am a bit of a glass half empty guy and may have been reading too much about US politics recently ....


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## spongebob59 (Dec 9, 2019)

The only time I remember any large scale EDL action in Kent was the skirmish in Dover many years ago.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't get to see  EDL in action as im not a facist islamaphobic moron so sadly I think they'd reject me.

Also think you need consider there are many people here alone on thia forum that express views you suggest that are from all over the country and not a single  county. Also i am from Kent was born there in one of the worst known council estates outside of London in a family that was hugely hit by the recession yet won't see me voting Labour because of their manifesto is a nothing short of a fairy tale, you won't see me voting Tory because I don't believe in their values or there promises of their manifesto either yet out of the 2 big parties they are the better of the 2 currently.
		
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Not brought up on a council estate, but went through the recession of the nineties and family lost everything. They are still recovering now. 
This election has turned me away from blindly voting for one party. I to would never vote Tory, however if they did something that met my criteria then I would. 
I know that there are other parties represented in Kent but the point was the Tory views were very close to EDL. The centre Tory vote is few and far between and the liberals have benefited.
The damming endorsement of the EDL to vote Tory shows that they feel they are represented. I know some have chosen to distance themselves from that and have stated they don’t care for Tommy’s opinions, however they then go on to espouse the same views with little dilution. 
Plus we have not seen or heard of how leaving the EU is going to stop illegal immigration?? Come on, everyone is avoiding answering that question because the reality is it’s a U.K. issue to resolve.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Possibly you could just indulge me, and point out which of my views are similar to the EDL, a group that I'm not personally familiar with in mid Kent
		
Click to expand...

Nah, I won’t waste my time trawling through your posts, you know what you have posted. As you say it’s your opinion and your entitled to it as I am entitled to label it and pigeon hole it. 
Now would you be so kind as to post a picture of the first tee at Canterbury?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah, I won’t waste my time trawling through your posts, you know what you have posted. As you say it’s your opinion and your entitled to it as I am entitled to label it and pigeon hole it.
Now would you be so kind as to post a picture of the first tee at Canterbury?
		
Click to expand...

it's on their website

https://www.canterburygolfclub.co.uk


_second picture down , 3 guys walking up the hill. 👍_


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			it's on their website

https://www.canterburygolfclub.co.uk


_second picture down , 3 guys walking up the hill. 👍_

Click to expand...

They must have moved the tee back as it’s now a par 5. Always remember it was an exciting way to start.

Cheers, I must get back there sometime


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## MegaSteve (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I wonder what the winning margin needs to be to stop the losers from demanding a GE re run?
		
Click to expand...

We are supposed to only have a re-run every five years but team tory, due to their own internal problems, prefer a re-run every two...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			We are supposed to only have a re-run every five years but team tory, due to their own internal problems, prefer a re-run every two...
		
Click to expand...





Wins the forum for today, well played sir.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

It seems that the Scots Tories think that by being invisible gives them more chance of winning votes.
4 days to voting and my wife still does not know the name of the Tory party candidate,
I only found out who he was by looking him up on the Scots Tory website.
It seems like we are not alone as Craig Murray is blogging similar thoughts.
Do any Scots guys/gals on here know who their Tory candidate is ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			B---s...t - I know a wack of nurses who love their job and the people they work with.
		
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Of course there are many nurses who love their job and the colleagues they work with - and you know some of them - but I was not talking about them as they are not the ones in scope of Johnson's cunning plan.

Have you spoken to many who are going to be 'taking their lump sum' and triggering their nurses pension in the next five years?  Have you talked to many who are so sick of the pressures and hassles that they cannot wait to find another job and leave the NHS?  These are the 19,000.  And if my experience of speaking to some in the former group (a dozen of my wife's close nursing friends) and hearing from my wife on the latter - it's going to have to be some promise and offer to make many of either group change their mind.  Many if not most in both of these groups are *desperate *to leave the NHS.  No realistic offer will work.

My wife (near 40yrs total commitment to the NHS as a general nurse, midwife and breast cancer nurse specialist) said over the weekend then she would not, under any circumstances, consider a return to the NHS. She is so relieved to be out.  New and young nurses?   The experience my wife and her colleagues have of many is that they just want to get up the ladder as quickly as possible - getting away from the tough coal face as quickly as possible.  So who is going to be working the coal face?  EU27 immigrants?

I fear that many do not understand the cancer that has eaten away at the core of the NHS - that core being nurses and doctors unflinching in their commitment to doing the very best for patients - supported by their colleagues.  That core has been eaten away and the NHS is on the verge of collapse as a result.   Some politicians are honest about this - others pretend that the NHS can be sorted without the public having to go into their pockets and pay.  Politicians need to get honest and up front about the serious problems facing the NHS - many brought about by the absurd expectations of us the public and the abuse and complaints NHS staff are on the receiving end of because they just cannot meet these expectations.  Mrs Hogie has just started work on a cancer charity helpline.  many if not most of the calls she takes involve complaints about the service provided by NHS!  And she knows that the NHS staff struggle every day to meet what these callers/patients expect.

This weekend my wife met with a group of 5 close nursing friends - all in the 50s - two retired the other three desperate to leave as soon as possible - all were of the view that there was nothing that could make them stay or return.  Going forward they felt that there has to be a serious public information exercise (TV Public Information films etc) - educating us about the NHS; explaining the problems and issues; and on how we can work with the NHS to reduce the pressure that has built on it over the last couple of decades in particular.  The message to us about the NHS has to be hammered home.

Johnson's retained and rehired 19,000 is - it would seem - a fantasy of epic proportions.

Sorting the NHS is going to take multiple parliaments - it can be sorted - the Public has two parts to play.  Pay more in our taxes - lower and reset our expectations; and understand how we can get what we *need *in a different way from simply piling along to A&E or by trying and see our GP.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah, I won’t waste my time trawling through your posts, you know what you have posted. As you say it’s your opinion and your entitled to it as I am entitled to label it and pigeon hole it.
Now would you be so kind as to post a picture of the first tee at Canterbury?
		
Click to expand...

you make some bizare and unfounded points. Nothing Chris has said is racist or in any to suggest a loyality to the EDL. Supporing Torries as a party that can better manage the economy than Labour is his view and one i agree with for various reasons to do with labour's willingness to spend what we do not have and the resulting implications of that policy, and the affinity for unions and what damage they can do when making unreasonable demands - both factors very evident in the 70s when unions destroyed our industrial base and we went cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout. Also, going with this is the ability to fund social services over time through this strategy of economic management - all of which i am in favour of but totally understand that many areas have been stretched too far with the cuts that were necessary due to a 10% budget defecit inhertited from Labour - could some of these policies have been relaxed over the past four or five years - definitely yes - but hopefully that strategy is now on the table from the very middle-of the road One Nation Tory manifesto. Supporting Conservative due to their economic policies is not being agaisnt social policies, it is a belief that they social agenda's will also be able to be managed better overall be being prudent with the purse strings


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course there are many nurses who love their job and the colleagues they work with - and you know some of them - but I was not talking about them as they are not the ones in scope of Johnson's cunning plan.

Have you spoken to many who are going to be 'taking their lump sum' and triggering their nurses pension in the next five years?  Have you talked to many who are so sick of the pressures and hassles that they cannot wait to find another job and leave the NHS?  These are the 19,000.  And if my experience of speaking to some in the former group (a dozen of my wife's close nursing friends) and hearing from my wife on the latter - it's going to have to be some promise and offer to make many of either group change their mind.  Many if not most in both of these groups are *desperate *to leave the NHS.  No realistic offer will work.

My wife (near 40yrs total commitment to the NHS as a general nurse, midwife and breast cancer nurse specialist) said over the weekend then she would not, under any circumstances, consider a return to the NHS. She is so relieved to be out.  New and young nurses?   The experience my wife and her colleagues have of many is that they just want to get up the ladder as quickly as possible - getting away from the tough coal face as quickly as possible.  So who is going to be working the coal face?  EU27 immigrants?

I fear that many do not understand the cancer that has eaten away at the core of the NHS - that core being nurses and doctors unflinching in their commitment to doing the very best for patients - supported by their colleagues.  That core has been eaten away and the NHS is on the verge of collapse as a result.   Some politicians are honest about this - others pretend that the NHS can be sorted without the public having to go into their pockets and pay.  Politicians need to get honest and up front about the serious problems facing the NHS - many brought about by the absurd expectations of us the public and the abuse and complaints NHS staff are on the receiving end of because they just cannot meet these expectations.  Mrs Hogie has just started work on a cancer charity helpline.  many if not most of the calls she takes involve complaints about the service provided by NHS!  And she knows that the NHS staff struggle every day to meet what these callers/patients expect.

This weekend my wife met with a group of 5 close nursing friends - all in the 50s - two retired the other three desperate to leave as soon as possible - all were of the view that there was nothing that could make them stay or return. * Going forward they felt that there has to be a serious public information exercise (TV Public Information films etc) - educating us about the NHS; explaining the problems and issues; and on how we can work with the NHS to reduce the pressure that has built on it over the last couple of decades in particular.  The message to us about the NHS has to be hammered home.*

Johnson's retained and rehired 19,000 is - it would seem - a fantasy of epic proportions.

Sorting the NHS is going to take multiple parliaments - it can be sorted - the Public has two parts to play.  Pay more in our taxes - lower and reset our expectations; and understand how we can get what we *need *in a different way from simply piling along to A&E or by trying and see our GP.
		
Click to expand...

I also see similar issues in teaching/education.  Promises about throwing x billion here and y billon there to recruit 10 trillion teachers is all good, and of course an injection of cash after starving schools of money in recent years is of course appreciated.  But you also need to tackle other issues, for example the Tories sneakily announcing they want to do no notice Ofsted inspections and lengthen the period of inspections after the manifesto came out is just silly. 

The Tories obsession with league tables, data and testing primary pupils on the type of grammar that 16 year olds used to be taught in grammar schools in the 50s has caused a lot of problems.  Luckily things are slowly beginning to change as there is not more emphasis on a whole curriculum and not testing 9 year olds to within an inch of their lives on stuff that is just not needed in the 21st century, but these things take time and not much I have seen from the last 10 years fills me with optimism for the future of our education system if the Tories get back in. 

But then again Labour goes and misses an open goal with silly stuff about closing down private school and academies and removing Ofsted completely, which will cause massive amounts of chaos in the education system (heads up to labour, if private schools are closed down then all that will happen is that the parents of private school pupils will mostly game the system and buy houses near good schools forcing other families out of the catchment area). As with a lot of areas we seem to veer between one extreme to the other with the main parties.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you make some bizare and unfounded points. Nothing Chris has said is racist or in any to suggest a loyality to the EDL. Supporing Torries as a party that can better manage the economy than Labour is his view and one i agree with for various reasons to do with* labour's willingness to spend what we do not have and the resulting implications of that policy*, and the affinity for unions and what damage they can do when making unreasonable demands - both factors very evident in the 70s when unions destroyed our industrial base and we went cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout. Also, going with this is the ability to fund social services over time through this strategy of economic management - all of which i am in favour of but totally understand that many areas have been stretched too far with t*he cuts that were necessary due to a 10% budget defecit inhertited from Labour* - could some of these policies have been relaxed over the past four or five years - definitely yes - but hopefully that strategy is now on the table from *the very middle-of the road One Nation Tory manifesto.* Supporting Conservative due to their economic policies is not being agaisnt social policies, it is a belief that they social agenda's will also be able to be managed better overall be being prudent with the purse strings
		
Click to expand...

Do you genuinely believe the current Tory party is 'one nation middle of the road' in terms of its politics?  And that budget deficit was nothing to do with the global economic crash that occurred in the noughties? And that only labour are promising fanciful spending plans? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do you genuinely believe the current Tory party is 'one nation middle of the road' in terms of its politics?  And that budget deficit was nothing to do with the global economic crash that occurred in the noughties? And that only labour are promising fanciful spending plans? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818

Click to expand...

of course the budget defecit was caused by the financial crises - but i blame labour for the level of it as Gordon Brown was spending financed through borrowing during the boom naughties rather than being more restrained with the purse strings and running a budget, as per normal economic cycles of the type that were normal until 2008.

And yes - what is not "one nation" about the tory programme - increased borrowing for may areas of the economy, spending for investment at the expense of fiscal prudence,  tax cuts aimed at lower incomes etc. Tell me where you think the current manifesto is driven by the tory right? This is a very middle market manifesto completely unlike Labour, that is so far to the left it is further west than Venezuela!


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## IanM (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			But then again Labour goes and misses an open goal with silly stuff about closing down private school and academies and removing Ofsted completely, which will cause massive amounts of chaos in the education system (heads up to labour, if private schools are closed down then all that will happen is that the parents of private school pupils will mostly game the system and buy houses near good schools forcing other families out of the catchment area). As with a lot of areas we seem to veer between one extreme to the other with the main parties.
		
Click to expand...

yes indeed...... As my granddad said, "they are all no bloody good!"  

Boris is getting away with stuff for the primary reason of "not being Corbyn."


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## IanM (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			unlike Labour, that is so far to the left it is further west than Venezuela!
		
Click to expand...


Venezuela  - oft quoted by the Corbo as a shining example of what can be achieved by socialism.   He is of course completely correct.  A country rich is natural resources, utterly rogered!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

Johnson reverting to his core values.
Some of the replies are 'enlightening'


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203922486968147969


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you make some bizare and unfounded points. Nothing Chris has said is racist or in any to suggest a loyality to the EDL. Supporing Torries as a party that can better manage the economy than Labour is his view and one i agree with for various reasons to do with labour's willingness to spend what we do not have and the resulting implications of that policy, and the affinity for unions and what damage they can do when making unreasonable demands - both factors very evident in the 70s when unions destroyed our industrial base and we went cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout. Also, going with this is the ability to fund social services over time through this strategy of economic management - all of which i am in favour of but totally understand that many areas have been stretched too far with the cuts that were necessary due to a 10% budget defecit inhertited from Labour - could some of these policies have been relaxed over the past four or five years - definitely yes - but hopefully that strategy is now on the table from the very middle-of the road One Nation Tory manifesto. Supporting Conservative due to their economic policies is not being agaisnt social policies, it is a belief that they social agenda's will also be able to be managed better overall be being prudent with the purse strings
		
Click to expand...

But why trust the Tories with the economic when they’ve run our debt up to insane levels?

https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Notice that debt under Labour stays very similar until the global crisis which Labour couldn’t possibly have averted. In come the Tories and it’s grown massively. 

You simply don’t have the facts to back up your beliefs - because you believe the media that feeds you the hate you desire.


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			of course the budget defecit was caused by the financial crises - but i blame labour for the level of it as Gordon Brown was spending financed through borrowing during the boom naughties rather than being more restrained with the purse strings and running a budget, as per normal economic cycles of the type that were normal until 2008.

And yes - what is not "one nation" about the tory programme - increased borrowing for may areas of the economy, spending for investment at the expense of fiscal prudence,  tax cuts aimed at lower incomes etc. Tell me where you think the current manifesto is driven by the tory right? This is a very middle market manifesto completely unlike Labour, that is so far to the left it is further west than Venezuela!
		
Click to expand...

Don’t bring Venezuela into it when you obviously have no idea what happened there - an American enforced change so that they could pillage their resources. That’s nothing to do with what Labour want to do and it’s so lazy when people think they’re an intellectual behemoth by name dropping Venezuela. Invariably we hear that a certain Austrian was a socialist, too...


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			But why trust the Tories with the economic when they’ve run our debt up to insane levels?

https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Notice that debt under Labour stays very similar until the global crisis which Labour couldn’t possibly have averted. In come the Tories and it’s grown massively.

You simply don’t have the facts to back up your beliefs - because you believe the media that feeds you the hate you desire.
		
Click to expand...

you singularly fail to understand the issues - the torries inherited the huge mess of the aftermath of the buggest recession in a generation. Are you saying they were fiscally imprudent and should have cut spending more and a deeper austerity budget to balance the books quicker?


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you singularly fail to understand the issues - the torries inherited the huge mess of the aftermath of the buggest recession in a generation. Are you saying they were fiscally imprudent and should have cut spending more and a deeper austerity budget to balance the books quicker?
		
Click to expand...

I’m saying recent evidence shows that the Tories aren’t better at managing a budget than Labour. 
Austerity is a busted flush which has driven division across the country but I guess you’re in favour because you have a very comfortable life.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Don’t bring Venezuela into it when you obviously have no idea what happened there - an American enforced change so that they could pillage their resources. That’s nothing to do with what Labour want to do and it’s so lazy when people think they’re a intellectual behemoth by name dropping Venezuela. Invariably we hear that a certain Austrian was a socialist, too...
		
Click to expand...

Again you show you have no clue - investors in Venezuela are owed billions and they cannot pay as they have wrecked the economy through a supposed socialist miracle that Jeremy Corbyn so advocated as a shining example for the world of what socialism can do. If you want to highlight social inequality on a level for beyond anything in the West go have a look for yourself (Maduro and the red cronies have stolen it all) - oh, and did you know that Venezuela have a tad more oil (and other mineral reserves) than anyone else - even Wee Jimmy Krankie could have made a success out of this!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I’m saying recent evidence shows that the Tories aren’t better at managing a budget than Labour.
Austerity is a busted flush which has driven division across the country but I guess you’re in favour because you have a very comfortable life.
		
Click to expand...

i may have to repeat again. Labour took over a booming economy in 1997 - the tories took over a timebong. You are critising them for needing to borrow, which is what you do in the hard times - but you also knock them for implementing cuts - you have one or the other!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i may have to repeat again. Labour took over a booming economy in 1997 - the tories took over a timebong. You are critising them for needing to borrow, which is what you do in the hard times - but you also knock them for implementing cuts -* you have one or the other*!
		
Click to expand...

You could raises taxes?


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Again you show you have no clue - we invest in Venezuela through work and like all creditors, we are owed a lot and they cannot pay as they have wrecked the economy through a supposed socialist miracle that Jeremy Corbyn so advocated as a shining example for the world of what socialism can do. If you want to highlight social inequality on a level for beyond anything in the West go have a look for yourself (Maduro and the red cronies have stolen it all) - oh, and did you know that Venezuela have a tad more oil (and other mineral reserves) than anyone else - even Wee Jimmy Krankie could have made a success out of this!
		
Click to expand...

So you’re doubling down on claiming that Venezuela is comparable to what a labour government would be? You’re so deluded and you buy into right wing propaganda at every turn. Research it. Look at how Venezuela got where it is because of a dictatorship and stop thinking socialism is a cause of evil.


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could raises taxes?
		
Click to expand...

Whoa calm down. Why should rich people help society. I didn’t fight in world war 2 for the British empire just to be altruistic and improve society!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			So you’re doubling down on claiming that Venezuela is comparable to what a labour government would be? You’re so deluded and you buy into right wing propaganda at every turn. Research it. Look at how Venezuela got where it is because of a dictatorship and stop thinking socialism is a cause of evil.
		
Click to expand...

ah so Corbyn likes dictators as well


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Whoa calm down. Why should rich people help society. I didn’t fight in world war 2 for the British empire just to be altruistic and improve society!
		
Click to expand...

taxes wer raised throughout the parliamnet


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Again you show you have no clue - we invest in Venezuela through work and like all creditors, we are owed a lot and they cannot pay as they have wrecked the economy through a supposed socialist miracle that Jeremy Corbyn so advocated as a shining example for the world of what socialism can do. If you want to highlight social inequality on a level for beyond anything in the West go have a look for yourself (Maduro and the red cronies have stolen it all) - oh, and did you know that Venezuela have a tad more oil (and other mineral reserves) than anyone else - even Wee Jimmy Krankie could have made a success out of this!
		
Click to expand...

I'm still struggling to see why middle aged and elderly English men of a certain political persuasion can't type the name of a powerful Scottish woman and have to resort to name calling based on someone who was popular 3 decades ago. Perhaps they struggle with the spelling?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm still struggling to see why middle aged and elderly English men of a certain political persuasion can't type the name of a powerful Scottish woman and have to resort to name calling based on someone who was popular 3 decades ago. Perhaps they struggle with the spelling?
		
Click to expand...

Possibly for the same reason that some middle aged and elderly English (and Scottish) men of a different political persuasion can't type the name of the current PM and have to resort to name calling.


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## pendodave (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could raises taxes?
		
Click to expand...

No No No. that would be terrible.
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland have the highest rate of tax vs GDP in the world and they're terrible, terrible, places to live.
Why haven't all the rich people left them? Why haven't their economies been shunned as pariah states?
Beats me, maybe it's because they're the most civilised countries in the world to live?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm still struggling to see why middle aged and elderly English men of a certain political persuasion can't type the name of a powerful Scottish woman and have to resort to name calling based on someone who was popular 3 decades ago. Perhaps they struggle with the spelling?
		
Click to expand...

It could be that, deep down, they still think they are in primary six at school. 
Perhaps she was their first crush.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			So you’re doubling down on claiming that Venezuela is comparable to what a labour government would be? You’re so deluded and you buy into right wing propaganda at every turn. Research it. Look at how Venezuela got where it is because of a dictatorship and stop thinking socialism is a cause of evil.
		
Click to expand...

Here are some more insights into Venezula and of the character of the man. Make your own mind up - he spports these ideals and policies and Labour have an agenda that is firmly in this direction 






https://reaction.life/ten-times-corbynistas-praised-chavez-maduros-venezuela/ 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/venezuela-crisis-maduro-corbyn-trump-us-sanctions-a8755906.html  - 






https://www.politico.eu/article/jer...a-nicolas-maduro-disgusting-says-mike-pompeo/ 

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comme...s-his-prejudice-over-the-middle-east-1.479753 

https://www.ft.com/content/83424336-2a29-11e9-88a4-c32129756dd8


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It could be that, deep down, they still think they are in primary six at school. 
Perhaps she was their first crush.
		
Click to expand...

So what's your excuse when it comes to Boris then and struggling to type his name without an insult? I'm struggling to believe that he was your first crush when you were in primary six at school, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

pendodave said:



			No No No. that would be terrible.
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland have the highest rate of tax vs GDP in the world and they're terrible, terrible, places to live.
Why haven't all the rich people left them? Why haven't their economies been shunned as pariah states?
Beats me, maybe it's because they're the most civilised countries in the world to live?
		
Click to expand...

there is a massive differnce between the tax issue and the agenda of Corbyn to nationalsie and steal private wealth


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So what's your excuse when it comes to Boris then and struggling to type his name without an insult? I'm struggling to believe that he was your first crush when you were in primary six at school, but maybe I'm mistaken about that. 

Click to expand...

Oh give over, that is desperate
LBJ is an actual fact, Johnson is a well known serial liar [as well as a deeply flawed individual].
Wee Jimmy was an actor [sorry for spoiler to those who thought he really was a boy] playing a part about 30 years ago.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea why he was meeting them but I wasn't only referring to Ireland. He's met with Hamas and Hezbollah and called them his friends, although he did try to later clarify that he hadn't used the term friends in the traditional sense and that he meant something else. The man, much like Boris, is a proven liar, so it's very difficult to trust anything he says, let alone when it comes to meeting what have been classified as terrorist organisations.
		
Click to expand...

When it’s comes to Northern Ireland I believe Corbyns motives were all about peace - he didn’t believe our troops should be there but for me he didn’t have any mandate to carry out peace talks and it could have easily be seen as provocation 

As for meeting with Hamas etc - is he the only politician to do so ? Don’t they meet with groups to open up channels of communication to try and gain peaceful solutions ? The internet is flooded with pictures of various leaders meeting various terrorist leaders - it seems Corbyn gets slaughtered for it but others ?


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....e-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends

What doesn’t help his is the amount of social media own goals the guy makes with what he says but then his opponent is just as bad with things he has said or done during the past and recently 

Is it any worse than we as a country selling arms to Saudi to help their “war” against Yemen , it wasn’t that long ago we along with the USA were right behind Iraq and then Afghan 

Corbyn for me is no worse or indeed better than Johnson - both liars , both willing to sell their gran for political gain imo , both media idiots , both a sad indication of the current state of our political position. 

I would rather vote for a squirrel than those pair


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## pendodave (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			there is a massive differnce between the tax issue and the agenda of Corbyn to nationalsie and steal private wealth
		
Click to expand...

So when the Tories sold off social housing and public utilities owned by the WHOLE nation at a huge discount, was that not the biggest theft of all??
Socialise debt, privatise profit. It's the Tory way...


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## DRW (Dec 9, 2019)

pendodave said:



			No No No. that would be terrible.
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland have the highest rate of tax vs GDP in the world and they're terrible, terrible, places to live.
Why haven't all the rich people left them? Why haven't their economies been shunned as pariah states?
Beats me, maybe it's because they're the most civilised countries in the world to live?
		
Click to expand...

Its an interesting one, and would love to see a nearer to fairer/better flat rate taxation system in place in the UK, rather than the split basis we have across income tax/VAT/NIC etc, but no one party is really chasing that rainbow.

Finland only has 7 billionaires, Denmark 10 billionaires, Norway only has 15 billionaires, Sweden 33 billionaires in the whole country, so a total of 65 billionaires in those four countries. As a bit of a comparison London has about 60, New York has about 100 billionaires, Singapore about 45 and so on.

But your 'why haven't all the rich people left them', what is more interesting is that they do not have many super rich people living there based on the above. So basically the super rich do not live there....why you have to answer for yourself but taxation maybe one reason or maybe they are taxed out of the super rich level or maybe it the weather  [personally do not know the answer to that question, but do not agree with your statement]

It is the super rich or massive corporations that are the most mobile, to get out of paying taxes based on being resident. Something to always bear in mind IMHO. 

Would love the Whole World to be a lot more joined up in thinking about those kind of people /organisation and tax them the same the world over, so moving is not the answer to reducing taxes but again no one is chasing that rainbow.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh give over, that is desperate
*LBJ is an actual fact*, Johnson is a well known serial liar [as well as a deeply flawed individual].
Wee Jimmy was an actor [sorry for spoiler to those who thought he really was a boy] playing a part about 30 years ago. 

Click to expand...

As is suggesting that Nicola Sturgeon looks like Jimmy Krankie.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			What an odd thing to say - who holds an opinion they think isn’t right? You wouldn’t hold that opinion if not. What an incredibly strange stance.
		
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Only a bigot would suggest they were always right. More enlightened people would have an opinion that was open to question and reconsideration.


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## Kellfire (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Only a bigot would suggest they were always right. More enlightened people would have an opinion that was open to question and reconsideration.
		
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You didn’t actually read what I said, did you?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			As is suggesting that Nicola Sturgeon looks like Jimmy Krankie.
		
Click to expand...

If that is their best shot it only shows the desperate quality they use for debate.
Personally I find it hilarious that they cannot find anything deeper than a P6 insult.
What's next ..Ma dads bigger then yours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh give over, that is desperate
LBJ is an actual fact, Johnson is a well known serial liar [as well as a deeply flawed individual].
Wee Jimmy was an actor [sorry for spoiler to those who thought he really was a boy] playing a part about 30 years ago. 

Click to expand...

As it happens there is maybe one thing common between the Scottish First Minister and Janette *Tough*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

But hey - if I was one of the 30% of 55-65 yr olds who have assets of >£1m - why should I worry about a further austerity programme following us leaving the EU without a deal.  Just as long as the nasty socialists don't come looking for some of my state pension or dare tax my lovely money...

Yes of course when we leave the EU and regain our sovereignty, things will be difficult for a while - and that may mean an extended austerity programme - and of course I'd be sorry about that - but you know - only what the country can afford.

(did I really mean that...?  nah...just musing on reading about the 30% as I have been considering the value of my son's (27) assets...maybe £200 if he got £100 for selling all his clothes and £100 selling his collections of DVDs, CDs and Kerrang...and that's it)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

And sure enough - Johnson is talking about getting rid of the licence fee...

Dead cat - 4yr old on floor too difficult


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If that is their best shot it only shows the desperate quality they use for debate.
Personally I find it hilarious that they cannot find anything deeper than a P6 insult.
What's next ..Ma dads bigger then yours.

Click to expand...

And yet you are happy to indulge in exactly those same behaviours. To use your own phrase, does that not show the "desperate quality" of debate that you are prepared to use? Another phrase that you might want to become familiar with is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

"This is a new government with a new approach" - so says Johnson whenever the opportunity arises and today after being confronted with a photo of 4yr old lying sleeping on the floor of a hospital as no bed available.  Oh he's sorry.  Of course he's 'sorry' - he has to be 'sorry' - but in slopey-shouldering any responsibility he displays for all to see the extent of his self-obsession - and cynicism.

I am frankly sick to the teeth of such disingenuous statements coming from him and his obsequious buddies.  For many years he and his ministers have been right slap bang in the middle of creating the situation the NHS finds itself in today.  He, and the rest of his disgraceful shower of a cabinet, cannot be allowed to pretend that it's nothing to do with them.  If they are not all individually 100% responsible, they are all 100% complicit, as it is their party in government that has let this happen.

Obsequious:_ obedient or attentive to an excessive or servile degree. _


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And yet you are happy to indulge in exactly those same behaviours. To use your own phrase, does that not show the "desperate quality" of debate that you are prepared to use? Another phrase that you might want to become familiar with is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
		
Click to expand...

i don't recall anyone calling Boris a derogatory name making fun of his appearence?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And yet you are happy to indulge in exactly those same behaviours. To use your own phrase, does that not show the "desperate quality" of debate that you are prepared to use? Another phrase that you might want to become familiar with is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
		
Click to expand...

OK, I am mortally offended by a few folk on here calling the Scottish first minister Wee Krankie.
Hope that helps heal your wounds.


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## 2blue (Dec 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I’m not shocked that you picked my comment in particular to highlight this yet despite what I’ve said being based purely on someone’s political views in a political thread. Yet I was called a dick and that was fine and passed without comment. Play the ball, not the man.
		
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I think you have a very valid point.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

I suspect John Cauldwell will be one of many to hit the exit gates from the UK should labour win - and he is one of the good guys in relation to paying tax. It is impossible to know the extent of the individual and corporate wealth that will move away from Labour - but we cannot be naive and not expect it to put a dent in Labour's tax raising plans. The very richest will find ways round it, as they are easily mobile, to the detriment of everyone else

https://www.cityam.com/phones-4u-bi...ection/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

Funny how a few of the right wingers on here make the point that they want "free of Brussles", "make their own laws" and not be ruled by an "unelected body they didn't vote" for, yet it appears its alright for Scotland so Under Westminster and don't get why many in Scotland want Independance.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Funny how a few of the right wingers on here make the point that they want "free of Brussles", "make their own laws" and not be ruled by an "unelected body they didn't vote" for, yet it appears its alright for Scotland so Under Westminster and don't get why many in Scotland want Independance.
		
Click to expand...

You have a devolved government, which has controlled your health services etc for many years and you managed to run up a larger debt that you would have been permitted were Scotland an EU member. The UK government let Scotland's citizens vote on independence so you need to blame those of your fellow citizens who denied you that option. I fail to see how any other UK voter could be swayed by your opinion as we do not have a vote in Scotland and in the referendum voted as one Union. So whether you think those of us in the rUK are at fault for being 'left' or 'right' is irrelevant.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i may have to repeat again. Labour took over a booming economy in 1997 - the tories took over a timebong. You are critising them for needing to borrow, which is what you do in the hard times - but you also knock them for implementing cuts - you have one or the other!
		
Click to expand...

they had such a booming economy the electorate couldn't get rid of them quick enough with a Labour Landslide... oh and don't forget Black Wednesday and the lowest tax collection against GDP ever i seem to remember.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Funny how a few of the right wingers on here make the point that they want "free of Brussles", "make their own laws" and not be ruled by an "unelected body they didn't vote" for, yet it appears its alright for Scotland so Under Westminster and don't get why many in Scotland want Independance.
		
Click to expand...

Because they cannot see further than their noses and need to be told what to think.


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## DRW (Dec 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But hey - *if I was one of the 30% of 55-65 yr olds who have assets of >£1m *- why should I worry about a further austerity programme following us leaving the EU without a deal.  Just as long as the nasty socialists don't come looking for some of my state pension or dare tax my lovely money...

Yes of course when we leave the EU and regain our sovereignty, things will be difficult for a while - and that may mean an extended austerity programme - and of course I'd be sorry about that - but you know - only what the country can afford.

(did I really mean that...?  nah...just musing on reading about the 30% as I have been considering the value of my son's (27) assets...maybe £200 if he got £100 for selling all his clothes and £100 selling his collections of DVDs, CDs and Kerrang...and that's it)
		
Click to expand...

You do realise most of the people you refer to in that comment, are based near London and are property owners.

If you remove their home, how many millionaires(after deducting debt levels) do you actually know ? Would be interested to hear ?

Asset rich, cash poor, a lot are as well.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			You have a devolved government, which has controlled your health services etc for many years and you managed to run up a larger debt that you would have been permitted were Scotland an EU member. The UK government let Scotland's citizens vote on independence so you need to blame those of your fellow citizens who denied you that option. I fail to see how any other UK voter could be swayed by your opinion as we do not have a vote in Scotland and in the referendum voted as one Union. So whether you think those of us in the rUK are at fault for being 'left' or 'right' is irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...

many voted to remain in the UK as it was made quite clear that a vote for Indpendance would see scotland out of the EU... yet here we are.. about to be out.

True we do have DVl but its doesn't cover everything... westminster still has a big part in how scotland is run, anyway my point was some love to have a dig at Scotland wanting its Independance yet site the same reasons for Brexit


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2019)

How does BoJo justify his lack of empathy... this might just be the turning point. Not looking at the photo is saying it’s not my problem and then putting the phone in his pocket... bloody disgraceful. I m sure the Tories spin room is on steroids now 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204018593656180736


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How does BoJo justify his lack of empathy... this might just be the turning point. Not looking at the photo is saying it’s not my problem and then putting the phone in his pocket... bloody disgraceful. I m sure the Tories spin room is on steroids now


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204018593656180736

Click to expand...

its not just Boris who lacks empathy, judging by many of the attidudes of Torys as a whole.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			many voted to remain in the UK as it was made quite clear that a vote for Indpendance would see scotland out of the EU... yet here we are.. about to be out.

True we do have DVl but its doesn't cover everything... westminster still has a big part in how scotland is run, anyway my point was some love to have a dig at Scotland wanting its Independance yet site the same reasons for Brexit
		
Click to expand...

OK, lets turn your thinking around. Scotland does the vast amount of its trade with thr RUK at zero tarrifs in the UK single market, if Scotland left the UK and had to trade with the UK  as a foreign country with no trade agreement and border checks how exactly would it be better off and what currency would it use to trade with?


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, lets turn your thinking around. Scotland does the vast amount of its trade with thr RUK at zero tarrifs in the UK single market, if Scotland left the UK and had to trade with the UK  as a foreign country with no trade agreement and border checks how exactly would it be better off and what currency would it use to trade with?
		
Click to expand...

Surely it should be Scotland's choice? Why even get into a debate with a Scot about it?

Let them have their referendum but with one single proviso. If the decision is to stay in a Union, don't come knocking at the door for the next 10 years.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, lets turn your thinking around. Scotland does the vast amount of its trade with thr RUK at zero tarrifs in the UK single market, if Scotland left the UK and had to trade with the UK  as a foreign country with no trade agreement and border checks how exactly would it be better off and what currency would it use to trade with?
		
Click to expand...

i suspect we would have several years of trade talks to sort that out.

its no different to the situation the UK is in with its largest tarding partner but you say the UK is going to Thrive once it leaves the EU why shouldn't scotland?


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely it should be Scotland's choice? Why even get into a debate with a Scot about it?

Let them have their referendum but with one single proviso. If the decision is to stay in a Union, don't come knocking at the door for the next 10 years.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this, let them have the indyref2, if they get a vote for independence leave to sort out negotiations, currency, defence, trade et al. No different to what the UK has had to do with Brexit essentially. 

If remain wins then caveat it that must be at least a decade or more to try again.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely it should be Scotland's choice? Why even get into a debate with a Scot about it?

Let them have their referendum but with one single proviso. If the decision is to stay in a Union, don't come knocking at the door for the next 10 years.
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was a once in a generation decision last time, isn't that 30 years.


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i suspect we would have several years of trade talks to sort that out.

its no different to the situation the UK is in with its largest tarding partner but you say the UK is going to Thrive once it leaves the EU why shouldn't scotland?
		
Click to expand...

Scotland could keep sterling... think there's a few Caribbean countries that use the dollar. There would be a problem though. The EU won't allow an EU member state  to have a currency where a 3rd country, in this case rUK, to set its monetary policy.

Its fine detail which, no doubt, Scotland and the EU would sort out - expect in this case the EU would insist on Scotland having the €€.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i suspect we would have several years of trade talks to sort that out.

its no different to the situation the UK is in with its largest tarding partner but you say the UK is going to Thrive once it leaves the EU why shouldn't scotland?
		
Click to expand...

The UK is a big ecconomy and that has some clout in trading negotiations, Scotland on its own is a near basket case ecconomy who would hope the EU would take them on and bail out their defecit.   Somehow I cant see that happening and especially with the EU losing UK funds.  If Scots dont like UK austerity then it would be nothing compared to what the EU would need to insist on for membership.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

DRW said:



			You do realise most of the people you refer to in that comment, are based near London and are property owners.

If you remove their home, how many millionaires(after deducting debt levels) do you actually know ? Would be interested to hear ?

Asset rich, cash poor, a lot are as well.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed I do realise that - but that does not take from the fact that there are many in our country who have basically *zilch *in respect of assets or savings - yet the austerity programme of the last 9-10 Tory Years hit *these *people - as will any austerity / belt-tightening programme required as a result of short term economic difficulties post-Brexit.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Scotland could keep sterling... think there's a few Caribbean countries that use the dollar. There would be a problem though. The EU won't allow an EU member state  to have a currency where a 3rd country, in this case rUK, to set its monetary policy.

Its fine detail which, no doubt, Scotland and the EU would sort out - expect in this case the EU would insist on Scotland having the €€.
		
Click to expand...

personally i don't have a problem with the Euro one priviso you can keep the queen


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed I do realise that - but that does not take from the fact that there are many in our country who have basically *zilch *in respect of assets or savings - yet the austerity programme of the last 9-10 Tory Years hit *these *people - as will any austerity / belt-tightening programme required as a result of short term economic difficulties post-Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

What they have experienced is peanuts compared to 
the austerity that would be required after Corbyns spending and borrowing frenzy along with the reduced tax income the country would experience after the great wealth exodus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What they have experienced is peanuts compared to
the austerity that would be required after Corbyns spending and borrowing frenzy along with the reduced tax income the country would experience after the great wealth exodus.
		
Click to expand...

There you go - more Project Fear.  Nobody knows the future and economists and forecasters are usually wrong or inaccurate in their predictions.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There you go - more Project Fear.  Nobody knows the future and economists and forecasters are usually wrong or inaccurate in their predictions.
		
Click to expand...

Not with extreme socialist governments, can you point one out that has been a success, they always fail.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK is a big ecconomy and that has some clout in trading negotiations, Scotland on its own is a near basket case ecconomy who would hope the EU would take them on and bail out their defecit.   Somehow I cant see that happening and especially with the EU losing UK funds.  If Scots dont like UK austerity then it would be nothing compared to what the EU would need to insist on for membership.
		
Click to expand...

i think we would do OK, esp if we could tempt some of the Car Manufacturers who saying they will leave the UK if there is a no deal Brexit, Nissan, Toyota and Honda Factories in the central belt could solve some of these companies problems, they might not be the only ones temped to move.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think we would do OK, esp if we could tempt some of the Car Manufacturers who saying they will leave the UK if there is a no deal Brexit, Nissan, Toyota and Honda Factories in the central belt could solve some of these companies problems, they might not be the only ones temped to move.
		
Click to expand...

You may not have noticed but Japan have a free trade agreement with the EU now.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You may not have noticed but Japan have a free trade agreement with the EU now.
		
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doesn't mean they wouldn't want to build cars in the EU though does it...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			doesn't mean they wouldn't want to build cars in the EU though does it...
		
Click to expand...

Ask Honda for the answer


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			doesn't mean they wouldn't want to build cars in the EU though does it...
		
Click to expand...

Although no one knows either way its worth looking at what Japanese companies are increasingly doing. Once they have a free trade agreement, a number of companies have moved their manufacturing back to Japan.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			doesn't mean they wouldn't want to build cars in the EU though does it...
		
Click to expand...

Don't they want to go back to Japan to give work back home now they have a free trade deal?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

Honda, is suffering with poor sales. They are minimising their outlays and using the new deals to protect their home assets. The Japanese look after their own and having experience in this area, they will sacrifice their western colleagues. 
Nissan is a different argument and they really are dependent on the Brexit outcome. If it isn’t favourable to them they will look at their European sites. 
In the end the car manufacturers who are dependent on just in time and need the lines running for efficiency will build in Europe where supply issues are minimised. Bespoke producers knocking out less than 10k units can live with line delays. 
So yes some manufacturing will stay but the high volume stuff could go.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

The one astonishing bit of news coming out of the crazy fake attack on Hancock in tonight's news is that the Health Secretary has an advisor.

Amazing how many 'experienced' journalists and jobsworths fell for the Tory spiel before actually checking the facts.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Although no one knows either way its worth looking at what Japanese companies are increasingly doing. Once they have a free trade agreement, a number of companies have moved their manufacturing back to Japan.
		
Click to expand...

We've discussed international 'trade' many times. The car industry is, like most manufacturing' rationalising worldwide. China is restricting their companies to buy Chinese products (see Government computer procurement). Robotic assembly enables a few highly automated plants to satisfy world demand.

If Labour are successful and implement its trade and public ownership plans and their intended company tax regime look forward to world brand names vanishing from the UK to more responsive/cheaper/stable countries


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one astonishing bit of news coming out of the crazy fake attack on Hancock in tonight's news is that the Health Secretary has an advisor.

Amazing how many 'experienced' journalists and jobsworths fell for the Tory spiel before actually checking the facts.
		
Click to expand...

In my role as an independent fact checker I can confirm it did happen and he punched him to the ground. #factcheck


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There you go - more Project Fear.  Nobody knows the future and economists and forecasters are usually wrong or inaccurate in their predictions.
		
Click to expand...

i would bet my house that the whole pack of cards will unwind if they get in and implement their anti-business, anti-wealth plans  - you cannot model it as there asr so many moving parts, but from the outset you will get, in no particular order:

A slide in the value of the pound and a surge in imported inflation
Court cases galore from investors
A spike in interest rates and the knock-on increase in debt repayments for government, companies and individuals
A dramatic increase in government borrowing until investors stock lending, which will not take long
A surge in the budget deficit
Multiple Credit rating downgrades
Headline tax rises, followed by general tax rises after a year or so
Foreign companies scaling back operations or pulling out 
UK companies red-domiciling abroad - Unilever would vote a change to the hague in a heartbeat next time as business owners in general would have a fundamental dislike and objection to 
Massively alienate pensioners living off invested pensions by changing dividend tax rules 
Individuals who invest in property would, in general, scale back and sell up
A year of decent growth spurred by the massive spending followed by a long-lasting recession
All the toxic factors together for corporations and consumers would be catastophic and the UK (with or without Scotland) would be utterly screwed
We would be forced to call in the IMF and World Bank and an aussterity agenda of the like not seen before would be implemented


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			We've discussed international 'trade' many times. The car industry is, like most manufacturing' rationalising worldwide. China is restricting their companies to buy Chinese products (see Government computer procurement). Robotic assembly enables a few highly automated plants to satisfy world demand.

If Labour are successful and implement its trade and public ownership plans and their intended company tax regime look forward to world brand names vanishing from the UK to more responsive/cheaper/stable countries
		
Click to expand...

Same could be said for Brexit and the affect of labour is pure speculation... what was the phrase ??
Oh yeah project fear.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i would bet my house that the whole pack of cards will unwind if they get in and implement their anti-business, anti-wealth plans  - you cannot model it as there asr so many moving parts, but from the outset you will get, in no particular order:

A slide in the value of the pound and a surge in imported inflation
Court cases galore from investors
A spike in interest rates and the knock-on increase in debt repayments for government, companies and individuals
A dramatic increase in government borrowing until investors stock lending, which will not take long
A surge in the budget deficit
Multiple Credit rating downgrades
Headline tax rises, followed by general tax rises after a year or so
Foreign companies scaling back operations or pulling out
UK companies red-domiciling abroad - Unilever would vote a change to the hague in a heartbeat next time as business owners in general would have a fundamental dislike and objection to
Massively alienate pensioners living off invested pensions by changing dividend tax rules
Individuals who invest in property would, in general, scale back and sell up
A year of decent growth spurred by the massive spending followed by a long-lasting recession
All the toxic factors together for corporations and consumers would be catastophic and the UK (with or without Scotland) would be utterly screwed
We would be forced to call in the IMF and World Bank and an aussterity agenda of the like not seen before would be implemented


Click to expand...

Oh gosh where did you copy and paste that from? Some rag of repute?


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## Hobbit (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i would bet my house that the whole pack of cards will unwind if they get in and implement their anti-business, anti-wealth plans  - you cannot model it as there asr so many moving parts, but from the outset you will get, in no particular order:

A slide in the value of the pound and a surge in imported inflation
Court cases galore from investors
A spike in interest rates and the knock-on increase in debt repayments for government, companies and individuals
A dramatic increase in government borrowing until investors stock lending, which will not take long
A surge in the budget deficit
Multiple Credit rating downgrades
Headline tax rises, followed by general tax rises after a year or so
Foreign companies scaling back operations or pulling out
UK companies red-domiciling abroad - Unilever would vote a change to the hague in a heartbeat next time as business owners in general would have a fundamental dislike and objection to
Massively alienate pensioners living off invested pensions by changing dividend tax rules
Individuals who invest in property would, in general, scale back and sell up
A year of decent growth spurred by the massive spending followed by a long-lasting recession
All the toxic factors together for corporations and consumers would be catastophic and the UK (with or without Scotland) would be utterly screwed
We would be forced to call in the IMF and World Bank and an aussterity agenda of the like not seen before would be implemented


Click to expand...

What, Labour promoting a boom and bust economy? Sounds like they've brought Gordon Brown back...


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

The problem i see with Brexit v Labour's manifesto is with Brexit we still don't know what the deal is on offer (or agreed in principle/ oven ready as Boris says) and how we come out of  it financially because what we have been told by the leading party is debunked immediately in the news by all the others, we also don't truly know how badly it will affect us if its a no deal as we can't start picking up the pieces of that until it happens despite what the project fear were told about is.

Then theres Labour's manifesto which they said is fully costed but in fact isnt as we see new things added like WASPIs and reduced rail fares etc. But what we can see is how much its going to cost the country in borrowing and taxation, that despite claims its all coming from top 5% we know in fact isnt.

Its no wonder the nation in general is confused in how they should vote overall especially those that perhaps don't know all the ins and outs as they should because either way it could cost the average man/woman a lot more than they already pay out..

So effectively the choice for many comes down to what they think will cost then the least and is it better the devil you know 🤷‍♂️

Certainly a torrid time for UK politics


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Oh gosh where did you copy and paste that from? Some rag of repute?
		
Click to expand...

What, the Guardian!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Oh gosh where did you copy and paste that from? Some rag of repute?
		
Click to expand...

you really add nothing here - that is my view and my opinion not a copy from someone. You would get a similar message from many analysts so crawl back under your rock


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i would bet my house that the whole pack of cards will unwind if they get in and implement their anti-business, anti-wealth plans  - you cannot model it as there asr so many moving parts, but from the outset you will get, in no particular order:

A slide in the value of the pound and a surge in imported inflation
Court cases galore from investors
A spike in interest rates and the knock-on increase in debt repayments for government, companies and individuals
A dramatic increase in government borrowing until investors stock lending, which will not take long
A surge in the budget deficit
Multiple Credit rating downgrades
Headline tax rises, followed by general tax rises after a year or so
Foreign companies scaling back operations or pulling out
UK companies red-domiciling abroad - Unilever would vote a change to the hague in a heartbeat next time as business owners in general would have a fundamental dislike and objection to
Massively alienate pensioners living off invested pensions by changing dividend tax rules
Individuals who invest in property would, in general, scale back and sell up
A year of decent growth spurred by the massive spending followed by a long-lasting recession
All the toxic factors together for corporations and consumers would be catastophic and the UK (with or without Scotland) would be utterly screwed
We would be forced to call in the IMF and World Bank and an aussterity agenda of the like not seen before would be implemented


Click to expand...

Is that what happens after Brexit 🤔


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that what happens after Brexit 🤔
		
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only if Labour get in Phil and has nothing to do with brexit


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that what happens after Brexit 🤔
		
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Exactly the issue i was alluding to above all those issues could easily be as a result of Labour manifesto or Boris's Brexit....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			only if Labour get in Phil and has nothing to do with brexit
		
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But everything you have stated might happen if Labour get in has in some form been stated about post Brexit but always gets dismissed as “Project Fear” ?

Is there no chance then that if Labour did get in there would actually be a significant positive outcome 

also what would be the result of another 5 years of Tory rule when we consider the past ten ? Is there a horrific list for that 

I did see a good statement the other day 

Labours manifesto is full of promises etc , Tories manifesto is full of promises of what they will do - if they have done such a good job in the past decade why don’t they in their election campaign use the last ten years work they have done ?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But everything you have stated might happen if Labour get in has in some form been stated about post Brexit but always gets dismissed as “Project Fear” ?

Is there no chance then that if Labour did get in there would actually be a significant positive outcome

also what would be the result of another 5 years of Tory rule when we consider the past ten ? Is there a horrific list for that

I did see a good statement the other day

Labours manifesto is full of promises etc , Tories manifesto is full of promises of what they will do - if they have done such a good job in the past decade why don’t they in their election campaign use the last ten years work they have done ?
		
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without going over old ground the key difference is the trust that will be broken under Labour's policies - capital flight will follow by the rich and companies. I do not know what will happen under brext under torries but they can  implement business frienly policies that could attract investment rather than alienate it


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you really add nothing here - that is my view and my opinion not a copy from someone. You would get a similar message from many analysts so crawl back under your rock
		
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I like that your very obedient and you repeat opinions and claim to be your own. It’s a great skill to have.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What, the Guardian!
		
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I very much doubt it ... it was spell checked


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I like that your very obedient and you repeat opinions and claim to be your own. It’s a great skill to have.
		
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so you are calling me a liar - very grown, pathetic and very incorrect. I have no problem quoting other people but that was me off the hoof and not quoting copying someone else's work - it is not rocket science just basic economics and business sense. I spend my life reviewing companies and governments plans and objectives in a similar way before working out whether to lend to them so i think i have some insight into how these plans would be taken by international investors. I won't say any more about what i think of you or an infraction will be on the way - so do me a favour and don't call me a liar again


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			without going over old ground the key difference is the trust that will be broken under Labour's policies - capital flight will follow by the rich and companies.
		
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Why will they ? Because they will need to pay a bit more tax compared to the pathetic amount they currently do ? 

Where will these companies and rich people go too ?




			I do not know what will happen under brext under torries but they can  implement business frienly policies that could attract investment rather than alienate it
		
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Do you mean more tax breaks for the rich ? Does that help the working family ?

it would attract investment because they now they would get tax breaks and more money and profit in their pockets whilst the working family pay the higher prices


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			so you are calling me a liar - very grown, pathetic and very incorrect. I have no problem quoting other people but that was me off the hoof and not quoting copying someone else's work - it is not rocket science just basic economics and business sense. I spend my life reviewing companies and governments plans and objectives in a similar way before working out whether to lend to them so i think i have some insight into how these plans would be taken by international investors. I won't say any more about what i think of you or an infraction will be on the way - so do me a favour and don't call me a liar again
		
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I wondered how long it'd be before he'd put his foot firmly in his gob Paul.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will they ? Because they will need to pay a bit more tax compared to the pathetic amount they currently do ?

Where will these companies and rich people go too ?
		
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It's not just the rich that will be hit by Labour's policies and definitely won't be just the top 5% of earners as they are claiming. Not every business is paying a pathetic amount of tax. Every small business in the country will be hit by the plans to raise corporation tax. It's not just Amazon, Google, Facebook etc, it's every one man band (plumbers, builders, electricians etc) and small company. The rich can afford expensive accountants to find ways around it but someone whose company makes £50k a year will be facing an extra £3k a year in tax. They then have a choice whether to swallow that themselves or put up prices for their customers to cover it.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			so you are calling me a liar - very grown, pathetic and very incorrect. I have no problem quoting other people but that was me off the hoof and not quoting copying someone else's work - it is not rocket science just basic economics and business sense. I spend my life reviewing companies and governments plans and objectives in a similar way before working out whether to lend to them so i think i have some insight into how these plans would be taken by international investors. I won't say any more about what i think of you or an infraction will be on the way - so do me a favour and don't call me a liar again
		
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Nope I don’t think I called you a liar ... you need to work on your understanding skills


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's not just the rich that will be hit by Labour's policies and definitely won't be just the top 5% of earners as they are claiming. Not every business is paying a pathetic amount of tax. Every small business in the country will be hit by the plans to raise corporation tax. It's not just Amazon, Google, Facebook etc, it's every one man band (plumbers, builders, electricians etc) and small company. The rich can afford expensive accountants to find ways around it but someone whose company makes £50k a year will be facing an extra £3k a year in tax. They then have a choice whether to swallow that themselves or put up prices for their customers to cover it.
		
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Or maybe they may make staff redundant  !


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's not just the rich that will be hit by Labour's policies and definitely won't be just the top 5% of earners as they are claiming. Not every business is paying a pathetic amount of tax. Every small business in the country will be hit by the plans to raise corporation tax. It's not just Amazon, Google, Facebook etc, it's every one man band (plumbers, builders, electricians etc) and small company. The rich can afford expensive accountants to find ways around it but someone whose company makes £50k a year will be facing an extra £3k a year in tax. They then have a choice whether to swallow that themselves or put up prices for their customers to cover it.
		
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So a company that makes £50k profit is asked to pay £3k - so they make £47k profit instead whilst public improve - that seems a good trade off to me ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Or maybe they may make staff redundant  !
		
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So no different to the last ten years then 🙄


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So no different to the last ten years then 🙄
		
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Costs forced up, somebody pays the price !


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why will they ? Because they will need to pay a bit more tax compared to the pathetic amount they currently do ?

Where will these companies and rich people go too ?



Do you mean more tax breaks for the rich ? Does that help the working family ?

it would attract investment because they now they would get tax breaks and more money and profit in their pockets whilst the working family pay the higher prices
		
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I have said enough Phil but once more - companies will locate anywhere that suits them - we are a global economy - corporate tax now at 19% is relatively attractive, less so at 26% - but it is the stealing of 10% of large companies that is the real marxist red flag - and giving big worker representation on company boards that could make hmper management's decision making. This is akin to theft, extra beauracracy, interference etc. You may disagree but that is what i believe. And as for the very rich - they will easily be able to domicile elsewhere - as per what John Cauldwell said - he has paid £300 in tax over 10 years and has clearly stated that he will move away if Labour get in and siad many others in his position wil follow. Like them or hate them these wealthy people pay considerable taxes, direct and indirect and thus help support may jobs - even non doms - i would rather them here and paying 60k per annum and significant indirect taxation and employment

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ialist-john-caudwell-took-john-mcdonnell-bbc/

As for tory policies - tax breaks, free ports etc could help drive inward investment - but labour changes do the opposite. The labour policies are anti business, Conservatives want to attract business.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Corporation tax was always my biggest hate. It was money that I could use in the business to expand and possibly employ more staff and raise wages for everyone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			I have said enough Phil but once more - companies will locate anywhere that suits them - we are a global economy - corporate tax now at 19% is relatively attractive, less so at 26% - but it is the stealing of 10% of large companies that is the real marxist red flag - and gaving big worker representation on company boards that could make hmper management's decision making. This is akin to theft, extra beauracracy, interference etc. You may disagree but that is what i believe. And as for the very rich - they will easily be able to domicile elsewhere - as per what John Cauldwell said - he has paid £300 in tax over 10 years and has clearly stated that he will move away if Labour get in and siad many others in his position wil follow. Like them or hate them these wealthy people pay considerable taxes, direct and indirect and thus help support may jobs - even non doms - i would rather them here and paying 60k per annum and significant indirect taxation and employment

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ialist-john-caudwell-took-john-mcdonnell-bbc/

As for tory policies - tax breaks, free ports etc could help drive inward investment - but labour changes do the opposite. The labour policies are anti business, Conservatives want to attract business.
		
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Again a lot of that was mentioned in regards Brexit - big companies leaving because of the potential of import/export tariffs etc etc 

Theft ? Really ?

And do we all not want to see more funding for the NHS or Emergency services etc etc - areas that are suffering due to cuts from the Tories. My town no longer have a police station , crime is on the rise due to the lack of police presence in the town - and all down to cuts in funding 

So this extra tax improves these services. A big improvement for the majority 

And Labour “anti business” ? Really ? Or are they just trying to find a fairer society for us all


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## Beezerk (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			crime is on the rise due to the lack of police presence in the town - and all down to cuts in funding
		
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Interesting statement, do you have proof of that you can show everyone?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again a lot of that was mentioned in regards Brexit - big companies leaving because of the potential of import/export tariffs etc etc

Theft ? Really ?

And do we all not want to see more funding for the NHS or Emergency services etc etc - areas that are suffering due to cuts from the Tories. My town no longer have a police station , crime is on the rise due to the lack of police presence in the town - and all down to cuts in funding

So this extra tax improves these services. A big improvement for the majority

And Labour “anti business” ? Really ? Or are they just trying to find a fairer society for us all
		
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Phil - i am not talking about the NHS and wholehartedly advocate a big increase in funding, which all parties have in their policies. I am saying that labour policies will wreck the economy and thus their fairy-tale aspirations will come badly unstuck and we will all suffer. I am not talking again about cuts since the 2010 crash which had to happen to stabilise the economy - i already said i think they could have turned the austerity tap off sooner. And yes - theft - forcing companies to hand over 10% of their equity - you will not find a smilar policy in other democracies. That will also diute everyone's pension values etc etc. I have no idea how they implement it or make, for example, Comcast, give up 10% of Sky? A very attractive prospect for any potential new multi-nationals looking to invest in the UK?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Interesting statement, do you have proof of that you can show everyone?
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ghton-buzzard-is-an-easy-target-1-8792111/amp


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ghton-buzzard-is-an-easy-target-1-8792111/amp

Click to expand...

So can we deduce that cutting police stations reduce anti social behaviour and shoplifting?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Phil - i am not talking about the NHS and wholehartedly advocate a big increase in funding, which all parties have in their policies. I am saying that labour policies will wreck the economy and thus their fairy-tale aspirations will come badly unstuck and we will all suffer. I am not talking again about cuts since the 2010 crash which had to happen to stabilise the economy - i already said i think they could have turned the austerity tap off sooner. And yes - theft - forcing companies to hand over 10% of their equity - you will not find a smilar policy in other democracies. That will also diute everyone's pension values etc etc. I have no idea how they implement it or make, for example, Comcast, give up 10% of Sky? A very attractive prospect for any potential new multi-nationals looking to invest in the UK?
		
Click to expand...

But aren’t all these extra taxes aimed to increase spending into areas like the NHS and Emergency services - two big areas that have suffered under the past ten years ?

For all the talk of austerity these companies have managed to gain massive profits but tax bill for a good number has stayed very small 

Under the Tories i suspect a good number of businesses have flourished, profits on the up but there are millions more using food banks , on zero hour contracts , renting etc if companies actually looked to keep prices low for the many then they wouldn’t potentially need a tax increase


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope I don’t think I called you a liar ... you need to work on your understanding skills
		
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...economic-agenda-would-lead-calamity-many-not/ 

Maybe i should sue Charles Dunstone for the same plagiarism you accused me of earlier - as it looks very similar to my comments. Again, a logical business analysis of the ruinous policies proposed by Labour - coming from a successful entrepreuner who has voted Labour and Tory in the past


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So can we deduce that cutting police stations reduce anti social behaviour and shoplifting?
		
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You can because they are too busy doing the more hardened crimes now 🙄

Tories cut the budget to the police and that’s what happens when the police station goes 

Right ..🙄


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So a company that makes £50k profit is asked to pay £3k - so they make £47k profit instead whilst public improve - that seems a good trade off to me ?
		
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The point is that they're lying about only the top 5% paying more tax. Why aren't they proposing to make everyone who earns £50k pay an extra £3k in tax? Because they know it would cost them votes. And in most cases the additional cost will be passed on to customers which will then hit the poorer in society more than the well off.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can because they are too busy doing the more hardened crimes now 🙄

Tories cut the budget to the police and that’s what happens when the police station goes 



Right ..🙄
		
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If closing police stations cuts anti social behaviour and shoplifting then that's a positive thing ?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But aren’t all these extra taxes aimed to increase spending into areas like the NHS and Emergency services - two big areas that have suffered under the past ten years ?

For all the talk of austerity these companies have managed to gain massive profits but tax bill for a good number has stayed very small

Under the Tories i suspect a good number of businesses have flourished, profits on the up but there are millions more using food banks , on zero hour contracts , renting etc if companies actually looked to keep prices low for the many then they wouldn’t potentially need a tax increase
		
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Phil - i am fully in favour of stopping all the international tax avoidance through maipulation of costs, licences, services etc to low tax economies. Tax should be paid where it is "genuinly earned" but it is a global problem and needs a global solution - but i am very much in favour of one - same for online only business versus the high strett - but very difficult to do - they all need cross border and cross party talks to work it out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If closing police stations cuts anti social behaviour and shoplifting then that's a positive thing ?
		
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Yes it’s wonderful that our Police Station was closed and crime has risen overall but shoplifting has dropped - I guess that’s down to the amount of shops closed in the last ten years , cafes now , hard to shoplift coffee 🙄


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			if companies actually looked to keep prices low for the many then they wouldn’t potentially need a tax increase
		
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So your solution to companies not keeping prices low is to tax them more which will then almost certainly lead to higher prices when companies pass on the added costs to consumers.


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## Beezerk (Dec 9, 2019)

Does anyone know if Jezza has accepted the offer from Radio 5 to appear on their breakfast show yet?
Apparently he's the only leader not to take questions on the show...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...economic-agenda-would-lead-calamity-many-not/

Maybe i should sue Charles Dunstone for the same plagiarism you accused me of earlier - as it looks very similar to my comments. Again, a logical business analysis of the ruinous policies proposed by Labour - coming from a successful entrepreuner who has voted Labour and Tory in the past
		
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Do you know who owns the telegraph ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So your solution to companies not keeping prices low is to tax them more which will then almost certainly lead to higher prices when companies pass on the added costs to consumers.
		
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Not my solution 

I believe more should be done in regards All the tax avoidance by huge multinational companies 

Believe self employed and small companies should get taxed at the same amount in relation to their earnings as employed people


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you know who owns the telegraph ?
		
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you really are a special case. This is written by Charles Dunstone - he is a business owner not a journalist - it is not an article referencing other people's views and putting a slant on it and it could have been printed in any paper for all i care - like what i wrote, it is his views. They mirror my own views


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you know who owns the telegraph ?
		
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Wells Fargo?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you really are a special case. This is written by Charles Dunstone - he is a business owner not a journalist - it is not an article referencing other people's views and putting a slant on it and it could have been printed in any paper for all i care - like what i wrote, it is his views. They mirror my own views
		
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Do you know what editors do ?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Wells Fargo?
		
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Don’t think he did ... just the offices connected


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Believe self employed and small companies should get taxed at the same amount in relation to their earnings as employed people
		
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It's a bit unfair that someone taking (sometimes) a huge risk to start a business and employ others should pay the same tax  as someone who takes no risk whatsoever.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Same could be said for Brexit and the affect of labour is pure speculation... what was the phrase ??
*Oh yeah project fear*.
		
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I just don't understand why you are so intent on degrading those who express an opinion contrary to your own. There are fundamental differences in how a Brexit future may evolve than  the policies that Labour has stated they wish to follow. My post explained the obvious evidence from the world of international business, the successful of which will not hang around if Labour treads the wrong path. Business have no emotion and will quickly change investment and location faced with an adverse set of policies in the UK - its primarily a question of confidence and it is clear that Labour does not enjoy the confidence of international businesses or indeed the investment community.

Business and nations economies run in cycles and it Labour to get the chance to enact their plans after a maximum of 3 years a down slide will transpire by which time there will be little confidence to fall back on and debt limits will inhibit borrowing.

I think you need to be very careful what you wish for they'll ( the London Labour elite) screw you and your kids/family.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you know what editors do ?
		
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go troll someone else


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

Interesting slant on the recently Labour/Mirror release of the young lad asleep on a floor in hospital from an actual nurse at the hospital in question.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 9, 2019)

Boys , play nicely now 👍


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 9, 2019)

Under 30's Question Time got a bit rowdy, good to see young folk passionate about politics.
Farage got pretty well laughed at every time he spoke. 
Swinson was her usual awful self, the others did OK with the Green and Plaid guys probably most impressive.


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## ger147 (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's a bit unfair that someone taking (sometimes) a huge risk to start a business and employ others should pay the same tax  as someone who takes no risk whatsoever.
		
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The self-employed should not be taxed at the same level otherwise they would be worse off than their employed colleagues.  They have additional costs to cover i.e. no sick pay, no holiday pay, no pension provision etc. and that has always been recognised thru the tax system, altho the gap is getting narrower and narrower each year to the point where it is no longer worthwhile being self-employed for many as they are now worse off that they would be if they were employed, and not having those smaller companies, self-employed contingent resources etc. will IMO be very bad for the economy moving forward.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But aren’t all these extra taxes aimed to increase spending into areas like the NHS and Emergency services - two big areas that have suffered under the past ten years ?

For all the talk of austerity these companies have managed to gain massive profits but tax bill for a good number has stayed very small

Under the Tories i suspect a good number of businesses have flourished, profits on the up but there are millions more using food banks , on zero hour contracts , renting etc if companies actually looked to keep prices low for the many then they wouldn’t potentially need a tax increase
		
Click to expand...

You dont seem to have a very good grasp on how business works and how good it is for working people.  It goes without saying that if people don't start and maintain businesses then most people won't have jobs and won't be paying tax, the amount of tax paid and the added value is much more than corporation tax, its also the large national insurance payments the employer makes for each employee, more infact than the employee make themselves. If it wasn't for the employer the employee wouldn't be paying tax which ultimately comes from the sales revinue the company makes.    Profits dont just get divided out to greedy bosses, much is ploughed back into the company to expand and create or secure jobs.  When people jump on the bandwagon saying big business dont pay a fair share of tax they are not trying to understand the whole picture. There are indeed some dodgy businesses just like there are some dodgy wasters who never do a days work but live off the state.  We really need business people to create wealth, you cant redistribute it unless you earn it first.  Also the state earns nothing, it is a service and although its employees provide services to the community they do not earn wealth, they pay tax but only from the tax non state workers and business  have taken from them.  State expansion needs keeping tightly under control.
All in my opinion of course.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			I just don't understand why you are so intent on degrading those who express an opinion contrary to your own. There are fundamental differences in how a Brexit future may evolve than  the policies that Labour has stated they wish to follow. My post explained the obvious evidence from the world of international business, the successful of which will not hang around if Labour treads the wrong path. Business have no emotion and will quickly change investment and location faced with an adverse set of policies in the UK - its primarily a question of confidence and it is clear that Labour does not enjoy the confidence of international businesses or indeed the investment community.

Business and nations economies run in cycles and it Labour to get the chance to enact their plans after a maximum of 3 years a down slide will transpire by which time there will be little confidence to fall back on and debt limits will inhibit borrowing.

I think you need to be very careful what you wish for they'll ( the London Labour elite) screw you and your kids/family.
		
Click to expand...

The point is every compelling argument is dismissed by project fear ... so if we spread that dismissal fairly and liberally across any post you see that actually it’s a real annoying phrase .. so we need to revisit everything that was dismissed originally as project fear and show it some respect. 

You may not have been playing the game and an unwitting victim of the game and I apologise.. but one does love a game. Especially when one gets rather good at it.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 9, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			go troll someone else
		
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No one has trolled you, I have not offered you any offensive emojis and I have not called you a name. 
Next your be complaining about the care you got from the nhs or how bad the trains are or water prices ..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Interesting slant on the recently Labour/Mirror release of the young lad asleep on a floor in hospital from an actual nurse at the hospital in question.
		
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I said I was out, but apologies as I can’t ignore this one, first Wolf, it’s claimed by the women it’s from an actual nurse, it’s not the nurse herself.
I accept nowhere do you say it’s fact, just an “interesting slant”.

Surely before they put out the following statement they’d of checked the facts especially the bit I’ve highlighted, so for balance:

Dr Yvette Oade, Chief Medical Officer at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust said: “Our hospitals are extremely busy at the moment and we are very sorry that Jack’s family had a long wait in our Emergency Department. Our Chief Executive Julian Hartley has spoken to Jack’s mum and offered a personal apology.
“We have seen a significant increase in the number of people visiting our Paediatric Emergency Department, and this week we saw the highest attendances we have seen since April 2016. Despite this, our staff are working tirelessly to provide the best possible care under these extreme pressures.
“Jack was quickly assessed upon arrival and seen in two different clinical treatment rooms in the Paediatric Emergency Department.


“Within four hours a decision was made to admit Jack to our Children’s Assessment and Treatment (CAT) Unit for further monitoring overnight. Unfortunately, the unit was also experiencing exceptionally high levels of demand which meant that Jack was required to wait in the clinical treatment room in the Paediatric Emergency Department until a bed became available. Jack was admitted to the CAT Unit later that evening and was discharged home the following morning after a medical review.
“*We are extremely sorry that there were only chairs available in the treatment room, and no bed.* This falls below our usual high standards, and for this we would like to sincerely apologise to Jack and his family.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			All in my opinion of course.
		
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I probably share that opinion  👍


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I said I was out, but apologies as I can’t ignore this one, first Wolf, it’s claimed by the women it’s from an actual nurse, it’s not the nurse herself.
I accept nowhere do you say it’s fact, just an “interesting slant”.

Surely before they put out the following statement they’d of checked the facts especially the bit I’ve highlighted, so for balance:

Dr Yvette Oade, Chief Medical Officer at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust said: “Our hospitals are extremely busy at the moment and we are very sorry that Jack’s family had a long wait in our Emergency Department. Our Chief Executive Julian Hartley has spoken to Jack’s mum and offered a personal apology.
“We have seen a significant increase in the number of people visiting our Paediatric Emergency Department, and this week we saw the highest attendances we have seen since April 2016. Despite this, our staff are working tirelessly to provide the best possible care under these extreme pressures.
“Jack was quickly assessed upon arrival and seen in two different clinical treatment rooms in the Paediatric Emergency Department.


“Within four hours a decision was made to admit Jack to our Children’s Assessment and Treatment (CAT) Unit for further monitoring overnight. Unfortunately, the unit was also experiencing exceptionally high levels of demand which meant that Jack was required to wait in the clinical treatment room in the Paediatric Emergency Department until a bed became available. Jack was admitted to the CAT Unit later that evening and was discharged home the following morning after a medical review.
“*We are extremely sorry that there were only chairs available in the treatment room, and no bed.* This falls below our usual high standards, and for this we would like to sincerely apologise to Jack and his family.
		
Click to expand...

As i said interesting slant, never did i claim to believe it true or untrue. But I do find it interesting a nurse making the claim she is against the parent.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

drdel said:



*I just don't understand why you are so intent on degrading those who express an opinion contrary to your own. *There are fundamental differences in how a Brexit future may evolve than  the policies that Labour has stated they wish to follow. My post explained the obvious evidence from the world of international business, the successful of which will not hang around if Labour treads the wrong path. Business have no emotion and will quickly change investment and location faced with an adverse set of policies in the UK - its primarily a question of confidence and it is clear that Labour does not enjoy the confidence of international businesses or indeed the investment community.

Business and nations economies run in cycles and it Labour to get the chance to enact their plans after a maximum of 3 years a down slide will transpire by which time there will be little confidence to fall back on and debt limits will inhibit borrowing.

I think you need to be very careful what you wish for they'll ( the London Labour elite) screw you and your kids/family.
		
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Re the bit in bold: It's what socialists do, they respond with personal attacks to being questioned or by people disagreeing with them. They just cannot compute anyone disagreeing with their beliefs so attempt to humiliate the opponent.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2019)

Wolf said:



			As i said interesting slant, never did i claim to believe it true or untrue. But I do find it interesting a nurse making the claim she is against the parent.
		
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I know you didn’t say true or untrue, but again the poster on facebook won’t name her “friend” (the senior nurse) in case she gets her in to trouble.
She obviously believes her “friend”
as know the facebook account has been deleted.

This time “I’m out out”


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I know you didn’t say true or untrue, but again the poster on facebook won’t name her “friend” (the senior nurse) in case she gets her in to trouble.
She obviously believes her “friend”
		
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You or I can only speculate as to why she didnt name her, perhaps its because the friend doesnt want to be named, perhaps its because of social media policy at work that they can post general comment but not actively name staff etc. There are many variables could even be she purely does not  like Labour, the bad press from story, doesn't like NHS being weaponised by politicians or so many other reasons.

I merely posted it because it seems odd to call out the parent especially if untrue, but  maybe it does give  another slant on the story we haven't heard about , also theres probably a level of irony in it that in believing her friend it shows just like the politicians there may well be an element of truth to  both sides of the story but just  how much is dependent on what actually gets believed by how we perceive things ourselves. 

Problem is we see so much spin nowadays especially with this election from both the main protagonists its becoming hard for many to take impartial views without digs at others. This thread alone just today is proof of that.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2019)

So it seems the little boy in hospital wasnt left to lie on some coats on the floor. Its not good that a bed wasnt available when he arrived but unfortunatly hospitals get overloaded at times and the staff have to set priorities, there may well have been other children with worse conditions, who knows.
I am getting really fed up with this deliberate policy of weaponising the NHS, its so obvious that labour are so desperate they have created a policy of looking for absolutely anything regarding the NHS that they can scare people with.


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## Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So it seems the little boy in hospital wasnt left to lie on some coats on the floor. Its not good that a bed wasnt available when he arrived but unfortunatly hospitals get overloaded at times and the staff have to set priorities, there may well have been other children with worse conditions, who knows.
*I am getting really fed up with this deliberate policy of weaponising the NHS*, its so obvious that labour are so desperate they have created a policy of looking for absolutely anything regarding the NHS that they can scare people with.
		
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Absolutely agree with you on that point. Yes the NHS needs more support as its usage is hit so hard, but imo this is one area all parties should seek common ground to protect and develop it and should be removed from being used as the tool in which to scaremonger or seek power.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely agree with you on that point. Yes the NHS needs more support as its usage is hit so hard, but imo this is one area all parties should seek common ground to protect and develop it and should be removed from being used as the tool in which to scaremonger or seek power.
		
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i started off thinking I agree with you both on the weaponising bit. However, the NHS is in crisis. It’s in more than a mess. Doc’s appointments 4 weeks away, waiting lists longer than they’ve been for 10 years, record levels of ops cancelled at the last minute, A&E waits regularly over 4 hours, severe bed shortages.

No one can and should defend that mess.

The joke is long since over. Irrespective of which party is in power, weaponise it like a big stick and use that stick to beat 7 shades out of the party in power.

i know this might stick in some people’s craw but how about coming together on this one and demanding an NHS fit for purpose.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely agree with you on that point. Yes* the NHS needs more support *as its usage is hit so hard, *but imo this is one area all parties should seek common ground to protect and develop it and should be removed from being used as the tool in which to scaremonger or seek power*.
		
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You could argue that about the economy, defense, social care, homelessness, education etc etc.  So I'd argue the opposite, we have one of, if not the greatest health care system in the world if you are a member of the public, so too god damn right it should be pointed out what certain parties are doing to it and their plans for it in the future.


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## Imurg (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So it seems the little boy in hospital wasnt left to lie on some coats on the floor. Its not good that a bed wasnt available when he arrived but unfortunatly hospitals get overloaded at times and the staff have to set priorities, there may well have been other children with worse conditions, who knows.
I am getting really fed up with this deliberate policy of weaponising the NHS, its so obvious that labour are so desperate they have created a policy of looking for absolutely anything regarding the NHS that they can scare people with.
		
Click to expand...

Many, many hospital pediatric units are swamped with sick kids at the moment.
Stoke Mandeville's is currently running at 200% of capacity - yep, twice the usual number, all needing beds, treatment and medecines
They're opening vacant offices and any other rooms they can find to have somewhere to put these kids.
Nurses are working double shifts to try and keep up
And they're still coming.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So it seems the little boy in hospital wasnt left to lie on some coats on the floor. Its not good that a bed wasnt available when he arrived but unfortunatly hospitals get overloaded at times and the staff have to set priorities, there may well have been other children with worse conditions, who knows.
		
Click to expand...

So has one random annoymous message on Facebook confirmed that was the case ?

And maybe these hospitals are being “overloaded” because of the reduction in fundings and staff levels because of those fundings over the past ten years 




			I am getting really fed up with this deliberate policy of weaponising the NHS, its so obvious that labour are so desperate they have created a policy of looking for absolutely anything regarding the NHS that they can scare people with.
		
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They should be using the NHS as a weapon - they should highlight how poor it has been over the past ten years , they should highlight that it needs to be a priority 

Millions rely on the NHS and something needs to change - it’s in Crisis right now and prob close to breaking point. Tories will point to “immigrants” to try and counter Labours argument about Mis management and poor funding. 

The NHS is the greatest national service in the world and it’s something we should be proud off - but it’s needs sorting before it breaks and we all suffer because of that.


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## ger147 (Dec 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			i started off thinking I agree with you both on the weaponising bit. However, the NHS is in crisis. It’s in more than a mess. Doc’s appointments 4 weeks away, waiting lists longer than they’ve been for 10 years, record levels of ops cancelled at the last minute, A&E waits regularly over 4 hours, severe bed shortages.

No one can and should defend that mess.

The joke is long since over. Irrespective of which party is in power, weaponise it like a big stick and use that stick to beat 7 shades out of the party in power.

i know this might stick in some people’s craw but how about coming together on this one and demanding an NHS fit for purpose.
		
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We can demand all we like but ultimately it is our own fault because no-one would vote for a party who would propose introducing the tax rises required to pay for it.

As an example, if a party proposed introducing a flat 40% income tax rate and an additional 16% NI rate and in exchange was able to demonstrate that this would pay for an exceptional health service, first class education for all up to and including free university education, the best public services in the world etc. etc, etc. do you think they would sweep to power??? Not a cat in hell's chance!!!

No one would vote for that big a wage cut.  Everyone wants the best education, health service, public services etc. but they all want someone else to pay for it.  The working class want the rich to pay more, better off folk want the big companies to be hammered and also question why so many people not working get cash. The super rich avoid tax like the plague etc.

As long as we continue to vote for the same old parties populated with the same old politicians with the same old policies, we will get the same outcome. Successive UK goverments from both main parties continually spend more than we earn every year, hence we still run a budget deficit, but they daren't raise taxes to close the gap or they wouldn't get re-elected. And so the cycle continues.

The NHS is a great example. Taxes in Norway are WAY higher than they are here but their Health Service is still NOT free. So if they can't afford for it to be free for everyone at their level of taxation, why on earth do we think it can be free when our taxation levels are so much lower???

I'm not suggesting the NHS should no longer be free, what I am saying is if we all want it to continue to be free for everyone, we need some honest debate about how much it really costs for the level of service we demand and how it should be paid for.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could argue that about the economy, defense, social care, homelessness, education etc etc.  So I'd argue the opposite, we have one of, if not the greatest health care system in the world if you are a member of the public, so too god damn right it should be pointed out what certain parties are doing to it and their plans for it in the future.
		
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None of the public owned items should have been up for privatisation.. legislation should be past to prevent it


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

suprised this wasn't mentioned esp after mister Right wing poster stuck it up like a shot last night, notice he's deleted it now though. But thats not my point, Kuensberg was on this like flies on yoiu know what show the type of journalist she is load a clear, back tracking now though


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204091610843226112


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			None of the public owned items should have been up for privatisation.. legislation should be past to prevent it
		
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Parts of the NHS have been privatised since back in the Blair days. It's strange that, according to some on here, that the NHS has only gone downhill in the past 10 years, but I guess that just suits the anti Tory narrative


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## Beezerk (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			it’s in Crisis right now and prob close to breaking point. Tories will point to “immigrants” .
		
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Interesting rant again.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, but on my travels it's actually the more deprived traditionally Labour constituencies who have stated the immigration line for hospitals etc being at breaking point.
It's easy for you to flip it to suit your anti Tory agenda but in this particular case I think you're way off the mark.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

ger147 said:



			We can demand all we like but ultimately it is our own fault because no-one would vote for a party who would propose introducing the tax rises required to pay for it.

As an example, if a party proposed introducing a flat 40% income tax rate and an additional 16% NI rate and in exchange was able to demonstrate that this would pay for an exceptional health service, first class education for all up to and including free university education, the best public services in the world etc. etc, etc. do you think they would sweep to power??? Not a cat in hell's chance!!!

No one would vote for that big a wage cut.  Everyone wants the best education, health service, public services etc. but they all want someone else to pay for it.  The working class want the rich to pay more, better off folk want the big companies to be hammered and also question why so many people not working get cash. The super rich avoid tax like the plague etc.

As long as we continue to vote for the same old parties populated with the same old politicians with the same old policies, we will get the same outcome. Successive UK goverments from both main parties continually spend more than we earn every year, hence we still run a budget deficit, but they daren't raise taxes to close the gap or they wouldn't get re-elected. And so the cycle continues.

The NHS is a great example. Taxes in Norway are WAY higher than they are here but their Health Service is still NOT free. So if they can't afford for it to be free for everyone at their level of taxation, why on earth do we think it can be free when our taxation levels are so much lower???

I'm not suggesting the NHS should no longer be free, what I am saying is if we all want it to continue to be free for everyone, we need some honest debate about how much it really costs for the level of service we demand and how it should be paid for.
		
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I think you hit the nail in the head.
Although I would add, just double check the minimum and average wages in those countries and the deficit is not so hideous. The wages go up because as people point out the skills will depart. The engine room of the economy is the professional skilled labour and they are the people you want to keep. Not just for your taxes but to maintain your society.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Parts of the NHS have been privatised since back in the Blair days. It's strange that, according to some on here, that the NHS *has only gone downhill in the past 10 years, but I guess that just suits the anti Tory narrative*

Click to expand...

Had anyone actually stated that it’s “only” gone downhill over the past years ? Or does that suit your “pro Tory narrative”

The NHS right now is a mess and in crisis - the current Tory government have been the custodians of the NHS during the last tens years so it’s their responsibility if issues have escalated over the period. 

I have no doubt that if we look back at Election promises from the Tories over the last ten years there will be a lot of “we will improve the NHS”

This crisis is happening on their watch 

Whataboutary won’t change that


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Parts of the NHS have been privatised since back in the Blair days. It's strange that, according to some on here, that the NHS has only gone downhill in the past 10 years, but I guess that just suits the anti Tory narrative
		
Click to expand...

No the nhs has been on a downward spiral - you can not fix long term non investment in a 4-5yr term. Blair’s government had to fix how many years of Tory low investment? 20-30years ? Just think if the short fall is 2billion a year and then multiply up by inflation and years of no investment.. it’s a disaster. 

The U.K. is still one of the lowest payers of salary for certain key skills ..


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## Grant85 (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			suprised this wasn't mentioned esp after mister Right wing poster stuck it up like a shot last night, notice he's deleted it now though. But thats not my point, Kuensberg was on this like flies on yoiu know what show the type of journalist she is load a clear, back tracking now though


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204091610843226112

Click to expand...

While I'd be of the view that a journalist shouldn't name their source, under almost any circumstances, I'd take a different view here. 

LauraK and Peston both fed a complete lie by a 'senior Tory' and regurgitated it as news. Then it emerged the source was completely at it, fabricating something that simply didn't happen. 

The source should be named and shamed to ensure that these anonymous sources know there are consequences. I'm sure both journos had some choice words with the source and they've perhaps burned a life that they can't use again, but tomorrow it could be another senior Tory source that gets given the phone numbers of these journalists. 

As it is, we see 'no 10 source' or 'senior Tory source' whether it is Boris, Gove, Cummings or other less visible people being allows to pass things off and gain credibility from BBC and ITV networks. The current 'process' allows misinformation to be spread quickly through supposed trustworthy sources. Even if it is then reigned back on in public statements or actual evidence, it has still done the trick to change the flow of news and deflect from the real issue of that day.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No the nhs has been on a downward spiral - you can not fix long term non investment in a 4-5yr term. Blair’s government had to fix how many years of Tory low investment? 20-30years ? Just think if the short fall is 2billion a year and then multiply up by inflation and years of no investment.. it’s a disaster. 

The U.K. is still one of the lowest payers of salary for certain key skills ..
		
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The Tory's were in government for the previous 20 to 30 years before Blair?


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## Grant85 (Dec 10, 2019)

Or perhaps LauraK and Peston both don't care and they love to be at the centre of the maze, getting all the info from the most senior people and deciding what 'makes the cut' for that days news. 

Certainly Laura's apology was a bit routine... 'happy to apologise...' or words to that effect.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

This

https://www.ft.com/content/e32eee8c...egmentID=635a35f9-12b4-dbf5-9fe6-6b8e6ffb143e


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This

https://www.ft.com/content/e32eee8c...egmentID=635a35f9-12b4-dbf5-9fe6-6b8e6ffb143e

Click to expand...

Can you summarise for me please. Can't read the article without paying. Cheers.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			While I'd be of the view that a journalist shouldn't name their source, under almost any circumstances, I'd take a different view here.

LauraK and Peston both fed a complete lie by a 'senior Tory' and regurgitated it as news. Then it emerged the source was completely at it, fabricating something that simply didn't happen.

The source should be named and shamed to ensure that these anonymous sources know there are consequences. I'm sure both journos had some choice words with the source and they've perhaps burned a life that they can't use again, but tomorrow it could be another senior Tory source that gets given the phone numbers of these journalists.

As it is, we see 'no 10 source' or 'senior Tory source' whether it is Boris, Gove, Cummings or other less visible people being allows to pass things off and gain credibility from BBC and ITV networks. The current 'process' allows misinformation to be spread quickly through supposed trustworthy sources. Even if it is then reigned back on in public statements or actual evidence, it has still done the trick to change the flow of news and deflect from the real issue of that day.
		
Click to expand...

there is a guy been saying this for years, ex Telegraph editor, about the outright lies being pushed by sources and the BBC and other outlets passing it off as news. I thought the job of a journalist was to check the facts before reporting, thought they would have learned a lesson after the Cliff Fiasco... did a good job of deflecting away from her idol Boris making a tit of himself with the ITV guys phone


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## Dando (Dec 10, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Many, many hospital pediatric units are swamped with sick kids at the moment.
Stoke Mandeville's is currently running at 200% of capacity - yep, twice the usual number, all needing beds, treatment and medecines
They're opening vacant offices and any other rooms they can find to have somewhere to put these kids.
Nurses are working double shifts to try and keep up
And they're still coming.
		
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No doubt the usual whinge bags will blame Boris for the kids being ill


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Had anyone actually stated that it’s “only” gone downhill over the past years ? Or does that suit your “pro Tory narrative”

The NHS right now is a mess and in crisis - the current Tory government have been the custodians of the NHS during the last tens years so it’s their responsibility if issues have escalated over the period.

I have no doubt that if we look back at Election promises from the Tories over the last ten years there will be a lot of “we will improve the NHS”

This crisis is happening on their watch

Whataboutary won’t change that
		
Click to expand...

...and why did Johnson react as he did yesterday when the journalist tried to show him the photo...?

Let me guess - whatever the truth of the photo, it is clear to me that Johnson wanted to avoid looking at the photo as he wanted to be able to say, whenever questioned on it, that he hadn’t seen the photo so couldn’t comment. In fact if I recall he actually started to say that when first asked to comment on it. 

As on so much, Johnson is desperate to avoid scrutiny or having to comment ‘off the cuff’ - why is that I wonder...can he not think for himself?


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and why did Johnson react as he did yesterday when the journalist tried to show him the photo...?

Let me guess - whatever the truth of the photo, it is clear to me that Johnson wanted to avoid looking at the photo as he wanted to be able to say, whenever questioned on it, that he hadn’t seen the photo so couldn’t comment. In fact if I recall he actually started to say that when first asked to comment on it.

As on so much, Johnson is desperate to avoid scrutiny or having to comment ‘off the cuff’ - why is that I wonder...can he not think for himself?
		
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Johnson is a prat and not a capable person. His whole ruffled hair nonsense and immense privilege are not what makes a good PM


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## 2blue (Dec 10, 2019)

Dando said:



			No doubt the usual whinge bags will blame Boris for the kids being ill
		
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What kind of thinking even begins to consider that this is an 'acceptable' comment to post. Then I saw the 'likes' & it all became clear. ...  just the dib, dibber missing.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			While I'd be of the view that a journalist shouldn't name their source, under almost any circumstances, I'd take a different view here.

LauraK and Peston both fed a complete lie by a 'senior Tory' and regurgitated it as news. Then it emerged the source was completely at it, fabricating something that simply didn't happen.

The source should be named and shamed to ensure that these anonymous sources know there are consequences. I'm sure both journos had some choice words with the source and they've perhaps burned a life that they can't use again, but tomorrow it could be another senior Tory source that gets given the phone numbers of these journalists.

As it is, we see 'no 10 source' or 'senior Tory source' whether it is Boris, Gove, Cummings or other less visible people being allows to pass things off and gain credibility from BBC and ITV networks. The current 'process' allows misinformation to be spread quickly through supposed trustworthy sources. Even if it is then reigned back on in public statements or actual evidence, it has still done the trick to change the flow of news and deflect from the real issue of that day.
		
Click to expand...

I think senior journalists are in a difficult place now. They both have access to people at the very top and as a journalist, that is something you want to cultivate and something that is a feather in your cap.  So naturally you are going to try and please your sources by using their quotes/information.  However I think we are now in a pretty dark place where people at the very top are willing to use these journalists to peddle at best misleading statements, and at worst out right lies. Knowing full well that if these senior journalists post it then there is an element of credibility. These journalists need to have a long hard think about what they put out now as it should be clear to them they are being used.

We seem to be in a very dangerous situation now. The newspapers are mostly party political broadcasts now and look how many people allegedly had friends in a hospital. But are those screen grabs fakes, did he say colour or talent, who knows anymore. Some people claim that not respecting the result of the referendum would be the biggest democratic mistake we could make. But to me we are seeing true democracy seep away under a barrage of misinformation, lies and increasingly ridiculous claims by all parties on what they will do.  And a public that seems willing to accept a lot of this at face value if it backs up any preconceived thoughts they might have. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204178211493621767


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## Dando (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No the nhs has been on a downward spiral - you can not fix long term non investment in a 4-5yr term. Blair’s government had to fix how many years of Tory low investment? 20-30years ? Just think if the short fall is 2billion a year and then multiply up by inflation and years of no investment.. it’s a disaster.

The U.K. is still one of the lowest payers of salary for certain key skills ..
		
Click to expand...

maybe if the NHS weren't paying for all those lovely PFI hospitals then they'd have some funds for other stuff.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you summarise for me please. Can't read the article without paying. Cheers.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies as when I clicked on it it was available for free and I don;t subscribe.  But I can see it's behind a pay wall now.  Basically it was saying that Boris is more interested in gaining power and not very good at what he will do once he has it.  And that will lead to problems just mounting up when he can't do what he claims. And there was some stuff about any trade deal he is likely to get if he wants it all done by the end of next year not being good for our economy, but then again we all know that the only threat to our economy is Jeremy Corbyn so no need to worry about the FT saying otherwise.  But they said it in a  much more intelligent way than I did.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			there is a guy been saying this for years, *ex Telegraph editor*, about the outright lies being pushed by sources and the BBC and other outlets passing it off as news. I thought the job of a journalist was to check the facts before reporting, thought they would have learned a lesson after the Cliff Fiasco... did a good job of deflecting away from her idol Boris making a tit of himself with the ITV guys phone
		
Click to expand...

Although you must see the irony of a Telegraph editor complaining that what comes out of a media outlet is not news but thinly (or not so thinly) veiled political propaganda.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Although you must see the irony of a Telegraph editor complaining that what comes out of a media outlet is not news but thinly (or not so thinly) veiled political propaganda. 

Click to expand...

i did when i first saw an article about it/him   (Peter Oborne) it gets worse he wrote a collumn for the Daily Mail


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

..and the punch...?  A complete *invention *of some Tory Spinmeister.  A dead cat story to detract from Johnson refusing to look at the photo and having to explain why a Tory government has let the NHS deteriorate over the last 10 years to where it is today - a difficult uncomfortable truth about the Tory Governments of the last 9-10 years.  And the journalist's phone ends up in Johnson's pocket - eh?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 10, 2019)

Yesterday was a very, very bad day for the Conservatives. The evening and night time news and even this mornings news is all about Boris, the hospital and his inept handling of it. He could have resolved it in 10 seconds. Instead, with 2 days until polling day he has had a car crash. Boy do they need to switch the agenda big time today. Yesterday could be huge for Labour if they can keep the story going.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yesterday was a very, very bad day for the Conservatives. The evening and night time news and even this mornings news is all about Boris, the hospital and his inept handling of it. He could have resolved it in 10 seconds. Instead, with 2 days until polling day he has had a car crash. Boy do they need to switch the agenda big time today. Yesterday could be huge for Labour if they can keep the story going.
		
Click to expand...

Johnson already been banging loudly on the table about Corbyn being neutral on Brexit - make it Brexit - Get Brexit Done - and make it loud and shout it out - clearly the message to Johnson from DomCum

Because yesterday I watched and listened to voters in northern seats totally conflicted over who to vote for.  So many absolutely don't want to vote for the Tories for all the right reasons - on the NHS, education, services, social care etc - but they have been sold the pup that is Brexit as being the panacea for all their ills.  So convinced are so many by the Brexit promises of a new beginning - that they will vote against their better judgement it seems.

How can I blame them - I cannot.  Anyone desperate for a change in their circumstances will look to whoever, and Leave made many positive statements about the new world now in touching distance - and so many now believe that Brexit will bring the deliverance that voting Labour cannot.  And I fear that they will be very let down...

And so today Johnson and his motley crew will be loudly banging the Brexit drum...


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## 2blue (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yesterday was a very, very bad day for the Conservatives. The evening and night time news and even this mornings news is all about Boris, the hospital and his inept handling of it. He could have resolved it in 10 seconds. Instead, with 2 days until polling day he has had a car crash. Boy do they need to switch the agenda big time today. Yesterday could be huge for Labour if they can keep the story going.
		
Click to expand...

Just think what it could be like if it wasn't for the majority of the Media being on his side.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

The kings suit of clothes syndrome.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Tory's were in government for the previous 20 to 30 years before Blair?
		
Click to expand...

List of governments 
1951-1963 - Tory 
1964-70 - Labour
1970-74 - Tory
1974-79 - Labour minority 
1979-1996 - Tory (North south divide created, heavy manufacturing destroyed, services sold and stripped ...)
1997 -2010 - Labour (pretty painless until the bankers balls it up!)
2010 -2015 - Tory / liberal (might as well just been Tory with the way Clegg rolled over)
2015 - 2019 - Tory, although they caused some self harm

So simple generalisation and you can kick up a storm ... long periods of Tory destruction of the services, every year in power requires 2 years to rectify their lack of investment if we cannot take the tax hike. So we start with 12 years of Tory monetary policy, we get 6 years to rectify their spending, then we get another 4 years of damage and 5 years of a labour government with no power, so cannot address the issues. Then we get Thatcher (greed is good, bosh bosh, look at my wad ), utter fiscal disaster ensues at the latter part of her tenure when it all comes home to roost, manages to sell off shed loads of stuff as well, John Major steps in and brings a clueless chancellor .. pretty much disaster. Labour get in, they have 15 years of Tory damage to rectify, you would think, but no the Tories have ramped it up and doubled their collateral damage. Labour set about fixing it but over a long period of time .. then the banks start to be idiots and loan money to people who cannot afford it in the states and our banks want a bit of the action and force a recession in the UK .. Labour get's the blame,and enter Dave the car salesman and nothing happens apart from a really bad decision about a Brexit referendum and the country is completely divided.... add into the mix a left labour movement that is at the mercy of right wing press and a liberal democrat party that needs to shake off the Clegg legacy ... (oh yeah and they forgot to sort out the Banks properly regards the bail out money, sold them back at low cost .. great bit of business that was from the Party that is business orientated)

So in a nut shell that is why the NHS is poor, this why your lucky your enjoying retirement compared to those of us who won't be retiring in 20 years time and that is why it's 20-30years of damage.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apologies as when I clicked on it it was available for free and I don;t subscribe.  But I can see it's behind a pay wall now.  Basically it was saying that Boris is more interested in gaining power and not very good at what he will do once he has it.  And that will lead to problems just mounting up when he can't do what he claims. And there was some stuff about any trade deal he is likely to get if he wants it all done by the end of next year not being good for our economy, but then again we all know that the only threat to our economy is Jeremy Corbyn so no need to worry about the FT saying otherwise.  But they said it in a  much more intelligent way than I did.
		
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There's not a lot there that I can disagree with. Especially the last sentence.  I was hoping that Boris might be clever enough to realise his limitations and get people in around him that could do the hard yards for him. Let Boris be the figurehead and outsource the actual work to others. Unfortunately from what I've seen so far that's not going to happen.


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## Grant85 (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think senior journalists are in a difficult place now. They both have access to people at the very top and as a journalist, that is something you want to cultivate and something that is a feather in your cap.  So naturally you are going to try and please your sources by using their quotes/information.  However I think we are now in a pretty dark place where people at the very top are willing to use these journalists to peddle at best misleading statements, and at worst out right lies. Knowing full well that if these senior journalists post it then there is an element of credibility. These journalists need to have a long hard think about what they put out now as it should be clear to them they are being used.

We seem to be in a very dangerous situation now. The newspapers are mostly party political broadcasts now and look how many people allegedly had friends in a hospital. But are those screen grabs fakes, did he say colour or talent, who knows anymore. Some people claim that not respecting the result of the referendum would be the biggest democratic mistake we could make. But to me we are seeing true democracy seep away under a barrage of misinformation, lies and increasingly ridiculous claims by all parties on what they will do.  And a public that seems willing to accept a lot of this at face value if it backs up any preconceived thoughts they might have.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204178211493621767

Click to expand...

It is what it is. 

I wouldn't say it is any more or less dangerous than when the Sun was at it's peak and could influence millions with tabloid splashes and election day front pages. 

Nowadays there is a lot more information and people can curate their own feed to suit their own ideology. One of the reasons Boris can now say no to the BBC and ITV flagship political programmes is that he can put out his own videos and have a presence. And they can also clip parts of other appearances and debates to multiply their effect, weeks after they have happened, so it doesn't appear that 'he's gone to ground' and is avoiding scrutiny to those sympathetic to him. 

Whether it will work is another story, although it seems to be at the moment. 

10 years ago the only way to get video into people's homes was via the TV and so if you didn't do any interviews for a few days, it looked like you'd disappeared. All politicians were desperate for TV appearances and this gave the likes of Paxman, Humphries, Eddie Mayor and now Andrew Neill a bit of a career in being tough interviewers.  

Interviewers have made a career out of trying to skewer politicians, but it's a two way street. Politician's want to tell people about their policies and interviewers want to try and catch them out. If the politician is only getting caught out and he has plenty of other ways to tell about their policies, then there's not much in it for them. 

Boris made a decision - do the Corbyn head to head debates... do a few other sit down interviews on ITV and BBC and some radio and pretty much dodge anything else other than a 90 second location clip. Put out loads of your own content and it won't actually look like your dodging too much as people will still see you every day. 

Ultimately the vast majority of voters aren't engaged enough to notice and will only ever see a few seconds of election coverage every day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			suprised this wasn't mentioned esp after mister Right wing poster stuck it up like a shot last night, notice he's deleted it now though. But thats not my point, Kuensberg was on this like flies on yoiu know what show the type of journalist she is load a clear, back tracking now though


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204091610843226112

Click to expand...

I posted #3425 at 6.45pm
The BJ fan club on here were all over it like a rash.....not
The 'I heard from the cousin of the friend of a nurse' story from Leeds Hospital knocks that into a hat though.
I am scunnered that 'normal' folk just accept this guff, shrug their shoulders and say nothing.
#sleepwalkingintodisaster.com


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204100056762265600Yes, just who is the senior Tory Robert


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yesterday was a very, very bad day for the Conservatives. The evening and night time news and even this mornings news is all about Boris, the hospital and his inept handling of it. He could have resolved it in 10 seconds. Instead, with 2 days until polling day he has had a car crash. Boy do they need to switch the agenda big time today. Yesterday could be huge for Labour if they can keep the story going.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't have been a worse day for them with such little time to go, factor in the quotes of other Tory politicians stating disabled people should be paid less and that people are only using food banks because they can't budget properly.  It completely plays into the hands of Labour to help them swing the vote in their favour. Cant blame labour either if they use that against the Tories as its of their own making and Boris behaving like that in the interview is unbelievable as to how he thought that was ok behaviour but then his skin is thicker than a rhino hide so probably won't even realise how stupid he's been. 

This election process has just shown how far the parties have gone down hill in the public estimation and until there are leadership changes and overhauls within the cabinet its only going to get worse.


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## DRW (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			List of governments
1951-1963 - Tory
1964-70 - Labour
1970-74 - Tory
1974-79 - Labour minority
1979-1996 - Tory (North south divide created, heavy manufacturing destroyed, services sold and stripped ...)
*1997 -2010 - Labour (pretty painless until the bankers balls it up!)*
2010 -2015 - Tory / liberal (might as well just been Tory with the way Clegg rolled over)
2015 - 2019 - Tory, although they caused some self harm

So simple generalisation and you can kick up a storm ... long periods of Tory destruction of the services, every year in power requires 2 years to rectify their lack of investment if we cannot take the tax hike. So we start with 12 years of Tory monetary policy, we get 6 years to rectify their spending, then we get another 4 years of damage and 5 years of a labour government with no power, so cannot address the issues. Then we get Thatcher (greed is good, bosh bosh, look at my wad ), utter fiscal disaster ensues at the latter part of her tenure when it all comes home to roost, manages to sell off shed loads of stuff as well, John Major steps in and brings a clueless chancellor .. pretty much disaster. Labour get in, they have 15 years of Tory damage to rectify, you would think, but no the Tories have ramped it up and doubled their collateral damage. Labour set about fixing it but over a long period of time .. then the banks start to be idiots and *loan money to people who cannot afford it in the states *and our banks want a bit of the action and force a recession in the UK .. Labour get's the blame,and enter Dave the car salesman and nothing happens apart from a really bad decision about a Brexit referendum and the country is completely divided.... add into the mix a left labour movement that is at the mercy of right wing press and a liberal democrat party that needs to shake off the Clegg legacy ... (oh yeah and they forgot to sort out the Banks properly regards the bail out money, sold them back at low cost .. great bit of business that was from the Party that is business orientated)

So in a nut shell that is why the NHS is poor, this why your lucky your enjoying retirement compared to those of us who won't be retiring in 20 years time and that is why it's 20-30years of damage.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly believe that section I have highlighted. You need to research it far better and not just believe what the government tell you.

We have been living in a massive worldwide credit boom since the 60s-70s(hence asset prices up to silly prices, stealing out earnings from the future to spend now, on credit) and no one is really stopping it, Labour or Tory. I saw the problems(along with a lot of other people, if you read the correct stuff, rather than the mainstream tosh) coming in the late 90s, by early 2000s there was major problems and we still have not solve the problem, just kicked it down the road by slashing/reducing interest rates. The day of reckoning will come, what will be done will be interesting bit.....

Funny how you have not mentioned the 70s era better as well and why Thatcher got in and the action that was taken against unions/wrokers. The workers( & unions) made their industries non-competitive, we are in a global system and if it was cheaper to produce/dig up stuff here, then it would still be going on. Never forget the power of market forces in a global system. People think they can control it but rarely does it last for long.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I posted #3425 at 6.45pm
The BJ fan club on here were all over it like a rash.....not
The 'I heard from the cousin of the friend of a nurse' story from Leeds Hospital knocks that into a hat though.
I am scunnered that 'normal' folk just accept this guff, shrug their shoulders and say nothing.
#sleepwalkingintodisaster.com
		
Click to expand...

not you the guy who posts all the other Tory lies and twiiter crap, deleted pretty quickly by the look of it


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Couldn't have been a worse day for them with such little time to go, factor in the quotes of other Tory politicians stating disabled people should be paid less and that people are only using food banks because they can't budget properly.  It completely plays into the hands of Labour to help them swing the vote in their favour. Cant blame labour either if they use that against the Tories as its of their own making and Boris behaving like that in the interview is unbelievable as to how he thought that was ok behaviour but then his skin is thicker than a rhino hide so probably won't even realise how stupid he's been.

This election process has just shown how far the parties have gone down hill in the public estimation and until there are leadership changes and overhauls within the cabinet its only going to get worse.
		
Click to expand...

If Labour lose then I hope they lose badly, meaning that the leadership and front bench are gutted. A slight loss might mean a John McDonell gets in and we are in the same mess. Equally, perhaps a Conservative loss will bring Jeremy Hunt back in with a new team. He seems to be more a centrist Conservative, is certainly calmer and a better pair of hands than Boris, low bar obviously.

If nothing changes after the election then it will be deeply depressing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes it’s wonderful that our Police Station was closed and crime has risen overall but shoplifting has dropped - I guess that’s down to the amount of shops closed in the last ten years , cafes now , hard to shoplift coffee 🙄
		
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Crime has been on the increase for years. It is more to do with society's attitude to it  ( teaching children right from wrong and not "it's ok if you can get away with it),and how the authorities deal with the offenders, than how many officers are on the beat. The police leaders themselves are dancing to targeting tunes rather than prioritising correctly.
Detecting the crime ( the important crime, that is), will only reduce the incidence of crime if the follow up action is the right one. The judiciary needs a change of direction too.
I am not advocating that policing levels are ok, they do need increasing; but more needs to happen as well. Especially the abandonment of half baked theories and priorities.


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Labour lose then I hope they lose badly, meaning that the leadership and front bench are gutted. A slight loss might mean a John McDonell gets in and we are in the same mess. Equally, perhaps a Conservative loss will bring Jeremy Hunt back in with a new team. He seems to be more a centrist Conservative, is certainly calmer and a better pair of hands than Boris, low bar obviously.

If nothing changes after the election then it will be deeply depressing.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you LT, often on here some seem to think im pro Tory because ive gone against labour policies. But truth is I'm far from it, i don't buy into Boris or the Tory party as whole including the pledges in the manifesto and they're to far right under the current cabinet, but equally i can't buy into Labours fairytale promises and the failures Corbyn has had as leader, along with McDonell amd momentum its all to far left for me.

The only hope is a Labour loss and compete change at the top to re balance them, likewise with the Tories they need the same to happen. It really is the most depressing GE i can remember. But i know my vote won't go to either of thise leading parties as I cannot buy into what either are effectively selling us.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Totally agree with you LT, often on here some seem to think im pro Tory because ive gone against labour policies. But truth is I'm far from it, i don't buy into Boris or the Tory party as whole including the pledges in the manifesto and they're to far right under the current cabinet, but equally i can't buy into Labours fairytale promises and the failures Corbyn has had as leader, along with McDonell amd momentum its all to far left for me.

The only hope is a Labour loss and compete change at the top to re balance them, likewise with the Tories they need the same to happen. It really is the most depressing GE i can remember. But i know my vote won't go to either of thise leading parties as I cannot buy into what either are effectively selling us.
		
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trouble with that is another 5 years of Tory rule, where we will get more of the same we've had for the last 9 years


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			trouble with that is another 5 years of Tory rule, where we will get more of the same we've had for the last 9 years
		
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Therein lays the issue patrick and why ive said so many times its the worst GE ive known. Another 5 years of Tory based on what the last 10 years has been like would be awful, yet if Labour get in with their Manifesto I fear for the long term viability of the UK economy that level of borrowing cannot be sustained nor can it be done without affecting everyone not just the top 5%.

Thats why i won't vote for either of them as i don't think on balance at the moment either are the right parties to run our government and my vote will go elsewhere. But i do think come Friday it will still likely be Boris in No10 banging his get brexit done drum. Sad state of affairs overall imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Labour lose then I hope they lose badly, meaning that the leadership and front bench are gutted. A slight loss might mean a John McDonell gets in and we are in the same mess. *Equally, perhaps a Conservative loss will bring Jeremy Hunt back in with a new team. He seems to be more a centrist Conservative,* is certainly calmer and a better pair of hands than Boris, low bar obviously.

If nothing changes after the election then it will be deeply depressing.
		
Click to expand...

Hunt is my MP.  If there was any hope that the Tories might quickly dump Johnson in the aftermath of a Tory win - with him being so divisive - I might actually vote for him.  He is for me so much more acceptable than ANY of the alternatives in the current cabinet.  But as I see virtually no chance of that happening, or of a Labour win, then I won;t even consider it further - and will hope for a major upset in my constituency (though that too is very unlikely given Hunt's majority in 2017)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It is what it is.

I wouldn't say it is any more or less dangerous than when the Sun was at it's peak and could influence millions with tabloid splashes and election day front pages.

Nowadays there is a lot more information and people can curate their own feed to suit their own ideology. One of the reasons Boris can now say no to the BBC and ITV flagship political programmes is that he can put out his own videos and have a presence. And they can also clip parts of other appearances and debates to multiply their effect, weeks after they have happened, so it doesn't appear that 'he's gone to ground' and is avoiding scrutiny to those sympathetic to him.

Whether it will work is another story, although it seems to be at the moment.

10 years ago the only way to get video into people's homes was via the TV and so if you didn't do any interviews for a few days, it looked like you'd disappeared. All politicians were desperate for TV appearances and this gave the likes of Paxman, Humphries, Eddie Mayor and now Andrew Neill a bit of a career in being tough interviewers.

Interviewers have made a career out of trying to skewer politicians, but it's a two way street. Politician's want to tell people about their policies and interviewers want to try and catch them out. If the politician is only getting caught out and he has plenty of other ways to tell about their policies, then there's not much in it for them.

Boris made a decision - do the Corbyn head to head debates... do a few other sit down interviews on ITV and BBC and some radio and pretty much dodge anything else other than a 90 second location clip. Put out loads of your own content and it won't actually look like your dodging too much as people will still see you every day.

Ultimately the vast majority of voters aren't engaged enough to notice and will only ever see a few seconds of election coverage every day.
		
Click to expand...

Senior Conservatives telling blatant and invented lies to the most senior political journalists of the main TV Broadcasters is much more dangerous than the Sun, Mirror or the Mail saying something.  We expect it from the Sun, Mirror and Mail and contextualise it accordingly; but we *believe *the provenance of what we hear Kuenssberg and Peston reporting that they were *told.*

We might questions their interpretations from time to time or indeed regularly - but this was them reporting what they believed was fact told to them by sources that they both trusted.  They both were told the same thing - and they both had no reason to not believe their Senior Conservative sources - and they were both told a lie.  They were *used* by the Tory Party to provide a distraction from the Johnson photo story.  What can Kuenssberg and Peston now believe when they are briefed by same or similar sources...

We can forgive Priti Patel for making things up and for Boris Johnson not having a clue as we do not really expect better...but this lie about Hancock's aid - it's round the world before the apologies could be made...too late.  Labour supporter thugs.

BTW - Patel yesterday just invented some numbers on crime under a future Labour government, and of course Johnson couldn't explain why she did it.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...hnson-Crime-General-Election-news-Priti-Patel


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2019)

this may help


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204349839041089537
https://order-order.com/2019/12/10/...e-quickly-safeguard-national-security-corbyn/


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

The Tories needn't have bothered making stuff up to distract from the Boris story yesterday. They should have just waited a day for Labour to shoot themselves in the foot. Leaked recordings of the Shadow Health Minister making some not very complimentary comments about Corbyn on the day when he should've been front and centre running with the Boris/NHS story but now looks like he will be sidelined. I'm not sure that I believe his excuse that it was banter or joshing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50726592


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			trouble with that is another 5 years of Tory rule, where we will get more of the same we've had for the last 9 years
		
Click to expand...

...made worse as they preside over trying to sort out issues arising from leaving the EU without a deal - and they will blame the Remain supporters in much the same way as Javid was recently blaming Labour for current levels of homelessness.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			this may help


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204349839041089537
https://order-order.com/2019/12/10/...e-quickly-safeguard-national-security-corbyn/

Click to expand...

great bit of deflection on the real issues, from another pro Tory... twitter account... nothing from Laura for you to post today?


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...made worse as they preside over trying to sort out issues arising from leaving the EU without a deal - and they will blame the Remain supporters in much the same way as Javid was recently blaming Labour for current levels of homelessness.
		
Click to expand...

yes cracks me up the way the people of voted against the deal everytime it came to parliment.. keep blaming others for it


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

DRW said:



			Do you honestly believe that section I have highlighted. You need to research it far better and not just believe what the government tell you.

We have been living in a massive worldwide credit boom since the 60s-70s(hence asset prices up to silly prices, stealing out earnings from the future to spend now, on credit) and no one is really stopping it, Labour or Tory. I saw the problems(along with a lot of other people, if you read the correct stuff, rather than the mainstream tosh) coming in the late 90s, by early 2000s there was major problems and we still have not solve the problem, just kicked it down the road by slashing/reducing interest rates. The day of reckoning will come, what will be done will be interesting bit.....

Funny how you have not mentioned the 70s era better as well and why Thatcher got in and the action that was taken against unions/wrokers. The workers( & unions) made their industries non-competitive, we are in a global system and if it was cheaper to produce/dig up stuff here, then it would still be going on. Never forget the power of market forces in a global system. People think they can control it but rarely does it last for long.
		
Click to expand...

No I am aware of the credit issues, and without sounding "holier than thou" the current system of freely allowing people to take credit without understanding the consequences are the issue.
Masses of profit are generated off the back of credit deals, but very few people view them for what they are .. which is basically making someone rich for doing nothing. We have a consumer society fueled by the media and this is very hard to resist and this is the downward spiral.

I do love the phrases "drink responsibly", "bet responsibly" etc.. we have banned smoking advertising for me this is no worse than gambling and drinking ... all of which I have enjoyed I cannot deny. The point being credit is as bad as gambling and those that are pushing it are on par with drug dealers (we still believe the drug dealer is the bad guy or do we think he is an honest soul making a business ?? ) 
So yes I hold the banks responsible completely as they took advantage of the weak.

I agree the unions played their part in the UK manufacturing downfall, but the management was the governments to do and they failed ..and they never set up to re-establish heavy industry. Seriously thinking it would go somewhere cheaper, yes it will, it will chase the low cost labour .. But we have never added tariffs or lobbied Europe to tariff that competition, nor have we made the effort to stymie the China steel situation which could have been done with purity levels. 

The point is, this business government are just a bunch of blow hards who talk a good game but cannot play it .. I know hindsight is 20:20 vision but I have not witnessed any Tory government in recent history with any vision. I just hear excuses, down right lies and blaming others .. The Tories will get my vote when they change that and Labour or Liberal will lose my vote if they descend to this level.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			List of governments
1951-1963 - Tory
1964-70 - Labour
1970-74 - Tory
1974-79 - Labour minority
1979-1996 - Tory (North south divide created, heavy manufacturing destroyed, services sold and stripped ...)
1997 -2010 - Labour (pretty painless until the bankers balls it up!)
2010 -2015 - Tory / liberal (might as well just been Tory with the way Clegg rolled over)
2015 - 2019 - Tory, although they caused some self harm

So simple generalisation and you can kick up a storm ... long periods of Tory destruction of the services, every year in power requires 2 years to rectify their lack of investment if we cannot take the tax hike. So we start with 12 years of Tory monetary policy, we get 6 years to rectify their spending, then we get another 4 years of damage and 5 years of a labour government with no power, so cannot address the issues. Then we get Thatcher (greed is good, bosh bosh, look at my wad ), utter fiscal disaster ensues at the latter part of her tenure when it all comes home to roost, manages to sell off shed loads of stuff as well, John Major steps in and brings a clueless chancellor .. pretty much disaster. Labour get in, they have 15 years of Tory damage to rectify, you would think, but no the Tories have ramped it up and doubled their collateral damage. Labour set about fixing it but over a long period of time .. then the banks start to be idiots and loan money to people who cannot afford it in the states and our banks want a bit of the action and force a recession in the UK .. Labour get's the blame,and enter Dave the car salesman and nothing happens apart from a really bad decision about a Brexit referendum and the country is completely divided.... add into the mix a left labour movement that is at the mercy of right wing press and a liberal democrat party that needs to shake off the Clegg legacy ... (oh yeah and they forgot to sort out the Banks properly regards the bail out money, sold them back at low cost .. great bit of business that was from the Party that is business orientated)

So in a nut shell that is why the NHS is poor, this why your lucky your enjoying retirement compared to those of us who won't be retiring in 20 years time and that is why it's 20-30years of damage.
		
Click to expand...


I've read some tosh in my time


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've read some tosh in my time
		
Click to expand...

I know, and you quoted / spout it frequently


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 10, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Many, many hospital pediatric units are swamped with sick kids at the moment.
Stoke Mandeville's is currently running at 200% of capacity - yep, twice the usual number, all needing beds, treatment and medecines
They're opening vacant offices and any other rooms they can find to have somewhere to put these kids.
Nurses are working double shifts to try and keep up
And they're still coming.
		
Click to expand...

I agree this is a really bad situation, and it's down to one thing only. 
An exponential demand caused by an exponential increase in population.
I'm sure that if there had not been such an increase in demand , then the hospital could be coping. Because if they could not , it means that their efficiency and/or effort has quickly gone downhill. And the good people working in the NHS have not all got worse in skill or caring that quickly, nor IMO, at all.
If a wave of a magic wand could suddenly produce another exact same hospital nearby, then we all know there wouldn't be a problem. And whatever party gets in cannot achieve that. Things can't happen that quickly, but intentions can.
They need to try however, and it will mean some increase in funding, I.e taxation. It's time that Tory dogma stopped regarding the word taxation as anathema: however Labour should not see it as a permission to throw money about irresponsibly on undeserving schemes and people.
And both should ,at the same time , be realistic about allowing the unsustainable , unjustified, and quite honestly, stupid increase in the population of this Country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Interesting interview by James O'Brien LBC with the Editor of the Yorkshire Evening Post (James Mitchinson) over the 'Jack photo' and what has happened and the YP has done since on the Fake News tweets - as were shared by many including Allison Pearson - that stated the picture was staged.  It was the YP that first published the story. Fascinating insight into the struggles of such as the YP against Fake News and trying to educate and inform their readers about the story and why the fake news was fake.

Can be listened to on Global Player catch up from about 11:30am.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting interview by James O'Brien LBC with the Editor of the Yorkshire Evening Post (James Mitchinson) over the 'Jack photo' and what has happened and the YP has done since on the Fake News tweets - as were shared by many including Allison Pearson - that stated the picture was staged.  It was the YP that first published the story. Fascinating insight into the struggles of such as the YP against Fake News and trying to educate and inform their readers about the story and why the fake news was fake.

Can be listened to on Global Player catch up from about 11:30am.
		
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The state of British politics. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204183081009262592


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## DRW (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I am aware of the credit issues, and without sounding "holier than thou" the current system of freely allowing people to take credit without understanding the consequences are the issue.
Masses of profit are generated off the back of credit deals, but very few people view them for what they are .. which is basically making someone rich for doing nothing. We have a consumer society fueled by the media and this is very hard to resist and this is the downward spiral.

I do love the phrases "drink responsibly", "bet responsibly" etc.. we have banned smoking advertising for me this is no worse than gambling and drinking ... all of which I have enjoyed I cannot deny. The point being credit is as bad as gambling and those that are pushing it are on par with drug dealers (we still believe the drug dealer is the bad guy or do we think he is an honest soul making a business ?? )
So yes I hold the banks responsible completely as they took advantage of the weak.

I agree the unions played their part in the UK manufacturing downfall, but the management was the governments to do and they failed ..and they never set up to re-establish heavy industry. Seriously thinking it would go somewhere cheaper, yes it will, it will chase the low cost labour .. But we have never added tariffs or lobbied Europe to tariff that competition, nor have we made the effort to stymie the China steel situation which could have been done with purity levels.

The point is, this business government are just a bunch of blow hards who talk a good game but cannot play it .. I know hindsight is 20:20 vision but I have not witnessed any Tory government in recent history with any vision. I just hear excuses, down right lies and blaming others .. The Tories will get my vote when they change that and Labour or Liberal will lose my vote if they descend to this level.
		
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Blaming the banks in the USA, in the previous post is just plain wrong if you have any knowledge. That is what Brown did and King also pretended no one could have seen it coming. People do need to be more responsible rather than just blaming 'the nasty banks' when asking for credit. Takes two to tango IMHO.

Any government could have made those changes you mention in the last 60 odd years, that you talk about....but have they, nope. Will they, probably not, unless you wish for someone like Trump in power,

Heres a question, have you setup your own business, run it successfully, employed people ? If you have did you help to correct any of the wrongs you mention in any of your previous posts? You could have setup a lending business, tried to re-establish an industry business, donated all your money, paid more tax to HMRC as a donation and so on etc ? Tax is a legal obligation, hence why there is a law about it and currency is legalised, so they can tax you.

I can assure you it is tough out there, in the real world trying to make a living, running a business, red tape everywhere and loads of private enterprise go to the wall due to it.

As a summary, if labour get in with all of its new regulations & taxes, the small owned managed/medium sizes businesses will be destroyed. Large business will leave, the rich will leave and only managed what they need from the UK. Then goes your jobs, then goes your tax revenues and a nasty downward trend goes on. And whatever Brexit does as well. Call it project fear if you like but I was one of the ones thinking of voting labour before reading the manifesto fully, it is truly frightening from a business point of view. and I was a neutral before.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

...and so what do the Brexit Party supporting electorate do when they do not have a Brexit Party candidate to vote for, and their hero Nigel is today again telling them that Johnson's deal is *not *Brexit, and that Johnson is basically lying when he says vote Tory to Get Brexit Done - because it won't be.  

Oh I could LOL with Farage actually telling the truth about GBD - if it weren't so miserably depressing that these two charlatans have brought us to this mess.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree this is a really bad situation, and it's down to one thing only.
An exponential demand caused by an exponential increase in population.
I'm sure that if there had not been such an increase in demand , then the hospital could be coping. Because if they could not , it means that their efficiency and/or effort has quickly gone downhill. And the good people working in the NHS have not all got worse in skill or caring that quickly, nor IMO, at all.
If a wave of a magic wand could suddenly produce another exact same hospital nearby, then we all know there wouldn't be a problem. And whatever party gets in cannot achieve that. Things can't happen that quickly, but intentions can.
They need to try however, and it will mean some increase in funding, I.e taxation. It's time that Tory dogma stopped regarding the word taxation as anathema: however Labour should not see it as a permission to throw money about irresponsibly on undeserving schemes and people.
And both should ,at the same time , be realistic about allowing the unsustainable , unjustified, and quite honestly, stupid increase in the population of this Country.
		
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Any successful person knows that dealing with success is as hard as dealing with failure the Tories have had 9 years of additional tax revenue by an expanding population and failed to manage it


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## drdel (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any successful person knows that dealing with success is as hard as dealing with failure the Tories have had 9 years of additional tax revenue by an expanding population and failed to manage it
		
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A more careful check will show the population has grown faster than tax revenues.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 10, 2019)

Ashworth did a great job for Tories today with guido. Potential next Labour/Tory Leader!


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## Beezerk (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yesterday was a very, very bad day for the Conservatives. The evening and night time news and even this mornings news is all about Boris, the hospital and his inept handling of it. He could have resolved it in 10 seconds. Instead, with 2 days until polling day he has had a car crash. Boy do they need to switch the agenda big time today. Yesterday could be huge for Labour if they can keep the story going.
		
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And in a way it's a great shame that elections are now coming down to this US style popularity contest. People making their minds up how to vote from a 10 second TV clip rather than what the party stands for.
I'm trying for a Likely Lads style media blackout until Thursday night so I don't have to watch all this guff on the news 😁


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any successful person knows that dealing with success is as hard as dealing with failure the Tories have had 9 years of additional tax revenue by an expanding population and failed to manage it
		
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What expanding tax revenue?  There has been little or no increase in net revenue over those years but a great demand for use of state services.  How on earth can anyone expect the nhs, schools, roads, housing, social services etc to keep pace with the biggest increase in population this country has ever experienced.  People don't bring hospitals, schools, roads and houses with them when they come to the UK but they start consuming straight away especially England who have experienced the lions share of this increase, Increasing these services can't be carried out at the same rate as the equivalent of a major cities population being added each year. 
People need to get their heads out the sand and their own backsides and stop being in denial of what's happening.
Unless the population is held in check so services can catch up then it's no good pointing fingers at each other and blinkering ourselves.  The king is naked.


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## drdel (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What expanding tax revenue?  There has been little or no increase in net revenue over those years but a great demand for use of state services.  How on earth can anyone expect the nhs, schools, roads, housing, social services etc to keep pace with the biggest increase in population this country has ever experienced.  People don't bring hospitals, schools, roads and houses with them when they come to the UK and especially England who have experienced the lions share of this increase, Increasing these services can't be carried out at the same rate as the equivalent of a major cities population being added each year.  
People need to get their heads out the sand and their own backsides and stop being in denial of what's happening.
Unless the population is held in check so services can catch up then it's no good pointing fingers at each other and blinkered ourselves.  The king is naked.
		
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Dft's post also misses the fact that babies and youngsters do not pay tax but are A heavy draw on the health service. It is also a fact that the birth rate has been higher among the lower socioeconomic groups who tend to be very low tax payers or recieve state aid.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Dft's post also misses the fact that babies and youngsters do not pay tax but are A heavy draw on the health service. It is also a fact that the birth rate has been higher among the lower socioeconomic groups who tend to be very low tax payers or recieve state aid.
		
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During a decade........... some of the youngsters actually grow up to pay tax...…some youngsters and adults even graduate to higher tax earners and....the biggest surprise of all is that some of the pensioners actually die.
I call this phenomenon The Circle of Life.


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## 2blue (Dec 10, 2019)

2blue said:



			Just think what it could be like if it wasn't for the majority of the Media being on his side.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			The kings suit of clothes syndrome.
		
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Hey-up... Dib, Dibber returns


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

In the event of a hung Parliament do you think that any other party would consider siding with the Tories.

Looks like even the DUP would not touch them this shift. Brexit maybees manage one MP so they are out of the picture .
Not entirely up with the other NI parties. BJ is beginning to look a bit lonely.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What expanding tax revenue?  There has been little or no increase in net revenue over those years but a great demand for use of state services.  How on earth can anyone expect the nhs, schools, roads, housing, social services etc to keep pace with the biggest increase in population this country has ever experienced.  People don't bring hospitals, schools, roads and houses with them when they come to the UK but they start consuming straight away especially England who have experienced the lions share of this increase, Increasing these services can't be carried out at the same rate as the equivalent of a major cities population being added each year. 
People need to get their heads out the sand and their own backsides and stop being in denial of what's happening.
Unless the population is held in check so services can catch up then it's no good pointing fingers at each other and blinkered ourselves.  The king is naked.
		
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So it’s migration that’s the issue funding to - NHS , Emergency services , schools etc 

Don’t a good deal of migrants pay tax then ? 

Is your constant finger pointing towards immigrants being the issue in regards the issues we face constitute “being in denial” about the issues caused by Tory cuts


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

DRW said:



			Blaming the banks in the USA, in the previous post is just plain wrong if you have any knowledge. That is what Brown did and King also pretended no one could have seen it coming. People do need to be more responsible rather than just blaming 'the nasty banks' when asking for credit. Takes two to tango IMHO.

Yes it does ... but the lead partner defines the dance ! So yes the banks need to be regulated and penalised - when was the last time you saw a poor banker ? they don't exist they pass their issues on down the line and find someone else to pay. If you are struggling with them being held accountable have a little wander around the Rothchilds gaff - they have bling stuff for bling sake, it is a disgrace.

Any government could have made those changes you mention in the last 60 odd years, that you talk about....but have they, nope. Will they, probably not, unless you wish for someone like Trump in power,

No labour government has been able to deliver fully on their ideals, the electorate won't let them hence Blair was the most successful labour prime minister because he was a pragmatist. However the Tories have no interest in these changes it doesn't fit their agenda. 

Heres a question, have you setup your own business, run it successfully, employed people ? If you have did you help to correct any of the wrongs you mention in any of your previous posts? You could have setup a lending business, tried to re-establish an industry business, donated all your money, paid more tax to HMRC as a donation and so on etc ? Tax is a legal obligation, hence why there is a law about it and currency is legalised, so they can tax you.

Yes, and no I don't need any direct employees, my skill is I am a specialist, you pay for me, not a copy. Did I over pay yes I did, I overpaid when the times were good because I knew the time would be bad and I may be unable to pay. Why would I set up a lending business? I would need a huge amount of assets to back it up, if I did not need to I could do it and make a comfortable living without hurting or jeopardizing other people... but I might not give them the amount they want and they would go elsewhere and get into trouble due to the lack of regulation. 

I can assure you it is tough out there, in the real world trying to make a living, running a business, red tape everywhere and loads of private enterprise go to the wall due to it.

I am sure all the accountants are very happy and will vote for the extra revenue 

As a summary, if labour get in with all of its new regulations & taxes, the small owned managed/medium sizes businesses will be destroyed. 
Exaggeration, they won't leave they will develop survival strategies similar to those or shall we say not as severe as will be required for Brexit - *you are actually telling me Brexit is better than Corbyn ?  *

Large business will leave, the rich will leave and only managed what they need from the UK. 
Large business will leave with Brexit, not with Corbyn, as we still have a toe hold and low cost supply network - no evidence would suggest this, it's just another lie.

Then goes your jobs, then goes your tax revenues and a nasty downward trend goes on. And whatever Brexit does as well. 
Look at the other high tax countries .. the engine room is the professional skilled people, they generate the tax via income and spending, organisations cannot cope with a loss of these people and they will pay higher wages to maintain them .. Luxembourg average wage is 77k Euros .. basic tax 38-45% depending on situation plus VAT liberally applied. Last time I was there they were in a fine state and their services were fantastic ! Companies realise they need people .. so in the end this statement of yours is a little negative.

Call it project fear if you like but I was one of the ones thinking of voting labour before reading the manifesto fully, it is truly frightening from a business point of view. and I was a neutral before.
		
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Answers in blue, you and I both know that Corbyn wont get a majority, so we can safely say that his extremes will be curbed ... If the Tories get in and we do Brexit then we are in for some thing close to what you have described in my opinion .. looking forward to it already !


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## Grant85 (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Senior Conservatives telling blatant and invented lies to the most senior political journalists of the main TV Broadcasters is much more dangerous than the Sun, Mirror or the Mail saying something.  We expect it from the Sun, Mirror and Mail and contextualise it accordingly; but we *believe *the provenance of what we hear Kuenssberg and Peston reporting that they were *told.*

We might questions their interpretations from time to time or indeed regularly - but this was them reporting what they believed was fact told to them by sources that they both trusted.  They both were told the same thing - and they both had no reason to not believe their Senior Conservative sources - and they were both told a lie.  They were *used* by the Tory Party to provide a distraction from the Johnson photo story.  What can Kuenssberg and Peston now believe when they are briefed by same or similar sources...

We can forgive Priti Patel for making things up and for Boris Johnson not having a clue as we do not really expect better...but this lie about Hancock's aid - it's round the world before the apologies could be made...too late.  Labour supporter thugs.

BTW - Patel yesterday just invented some numbers on crime under a future Labour government, and of course Johnson couldn't explain why she did it.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...hnson-Crime-General-Election-news-Priti-Patel

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ok - I'm not defending it. But my view is that its blatantly obvious these folk are at it and this should actually prevent folk from voting for them. 

As I said, it's very easy to be in a bubble seeing loads of this stuff on social media and realising how blatant it is. But it could potentially do them some damage. I guess we won't really know until Friday.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			During a decade........... some of the youngsters actually grow up to pay tax...…some youngsters and adults even graduate to higher tax earners and....the biggest surprise of all is that some of the pensioners actually die.
I call this phenomenon The Circle of Life.
		
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Call it what you like, it's now out of kilter!

Maybe not in Scotland, but surely in England. In fact, the figure for the population size in Scotland still amazes me how low it is.
What is it?  4 to 5 million?
I trust you are able to conceive of the difference we are talking about South of where your Circle of Life is turning?
Ours is more of a Whirlpool 😉


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			A more careful check will show the population has grown faster than tax revenues.
		
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Is that not mismanagement ?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

The fact the the Tories are not campaigning on one single success they have had after 9 years in power is nothing to be worried about. They are still the best option if you ignore the last 9 years.  #factcheck


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So it’s migration that’s the issue funding to - NHS , Emergency services , schools etc

Don’t a good deal of migrants pay tax then ?

Is your constant finger pointing towards immigrants being the issue in regards the issues we face constitute “being in denial” about the issues caused by Tory cuts
		
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Stop being reactionary and read my post, let what I said sink in and then discuss the points I make.  If facing up to the causes is finger pointing then I'm guilty but from where I'm sitting you seem to be doing a lot of that.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Is that not mismanagement ?
		
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Yes and both governments are culpable along with free movement


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

2blue said:



			Hey-up... Dib, Dibber returns 

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Nothing new then sweety, are the knuckles a bit sore today?


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## DRW (Dec 10, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			have a little wander around the Rothchilds gaff - *they have bling stuff for bling sake, it is a disgrace*.
		
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Sorry lost interest as soon as you said that, I never have liked the green eyed monster outlook, as it leads to wrong policies.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

This is what journalism looks like.  It is under threat and at the end of the day society is the loser.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204344653174181888


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## PNWokingham (Dec 10, 2019)

DRW said:



			Blaming the banks in the USA, in the previous post is just plain wrong if you have any knowledge. That is what Brown did and King also pretended no one could have seen it coming. People do need to be more responsible rather than just blaming 'the nasty banks' when asking for credit. Takes two to tango IMHO.

Any government could have made those changes you mention in the last 60 odd years, that you talk about....but have they, nope. Will they, probably not, unless you wish for someone like Trump in power,

Heres a question, have you setup your own business, run it successfully, employed people ? If you have did you help to correct any of the wrongs you mention in any of your previous posts? You could have setup a lending business, tried to re-establish an industry business, donated all your money, paid more tax to HMRC as a donation and so on etc ? Tax is a legal obligation, hence why there is a law about it and currency is legalised, so they can tax you.

I can assure you it is tough out there, in the real world trying to make a living, running a business, red tape everywhere and loads of private enterprise go to the wall due to it.

As a summary, if labour get in with all of its new regulations & taxes, the small owned managed/medium sizes businesses will be destroyed. Large business will leave, the rich will leave and only managed what they need from the UK. Then goes your jobs, then goes your tax revenues and a nasty downward trend goes on. And whatever Brexit does as well. Call it project fear if you like but I was one of the ones thinking of voting labour before reading the manifesto fully, it is truly frightening from a business point of view. and I was a neutral before.
		
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don't speak such common sense Darren!


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## drdel (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			During a decade........... some of the youngsters actually grow up to pay tax...…some youngsters and adults even graduate to higher tax earners and....the biggest surprise of all is that some of the pensioners actually die.
I call this phenomenon The Circle of Life.
		
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But your problem is its not a 'circle' as better health care keep older people and others with otherwise terminal illness alive longer: so not only do more people need care but the whole of society gets more /better/care often at higher costs per person because of the more complex processes. It is neither a Tory or Labour failure but a consequence of better medical knowledge and population demographics. But that truth does not suit the rumour mongers, or superficial media.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Call it what you like, it's now out of kilter!

Maybe not in Scotland, but surely in England. In fact, the figure for the population size in Scotland still amazes me how low it is.
What is it?  4 to 5 million?
I trust you are able to conceive of the difference we are talking about South of where your Circle of Life is turning?
Ours is more of a Whirlpool 😉
		
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5.4 Million at the mo and rising quickly with all those English folk escaping.

My point was managing change, from what you are saying it sounds like  the Tories have mismanaged it in your part of the UK.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so what do the Brexit Party supporting electorate do when they do not have a Brexit Party candidate to vote for, and their hero Nigel is today again telling them that Johnson's deal is *not *Brexit, and that Johnson is basically lying when he says vote Tory to Get Brexit Done - because it won't be. 

Oh I could LOL with Farage actually telling the truth about GBD - if it weren't so miserably depressing that these two charlatans have brought us to this mess.
		
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again, the same old vitriol assuming that the press is to blame, or lying politicians and nobody can make their own mind up or if they do they are wrong as they have been duped by charlatans!!!!!!! And that lies and spin only come from one side......


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

Two days to voting and I finally get my Tory leaflet through the door.
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING on it about their achievements or future plans.

Lots of SNP baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddddd and waffling on and on about Indyref2.
For goodness sake, he is not even bright enough to know it is a Westminster election.


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## drdel (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			5.4 Million at the mo and rising quickly with all those English folk escaping.

My point was managing change, from what you are saying it sounds like  *the Tories have mismanaged it in your part of the UK*.
		
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Perhaps the SNP could give the rUK advice on how they will bring their excessive borrowing of 9% back to acceptable norms recommended by the EU of 3% without rUK subsidises.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps the SNP could give the rUK advice on how they will bring their excessive borrowing of 9% back to acceptable norms recommended by the EU of 3% without rUK subsidises.
		
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Scrap Trident and HS2 for starters.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 10, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			don't speak such common sense Darren!
		
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With all due respect to those that post with knowledge or common sense... It's not you I want to be hearing it from... But from our prospective leaders... And, thus far, the absolute silence has been deafening from all sides...

Thankfully I have a couple of half decent independents on my ballot paper...


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...0UWfK37YdGwwiMgsq1YeTf8guX44Ys3TZsHx0iWZ2BNGE 
as if another 5 years of Torys wasn't enough


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two days to voting and I finally get my Tory leaflet through the door.
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING on it about their achievements or future plans.

Lots of SNP baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddddd and waffling on and on about Indyref2.
For goodness sake, he is not even bright enough to know it is a Westminster election.

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So, you'd not vote Tory if there were no other candidates but want to moan about their leaflet 😣


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scrap Trident and HS2 for starters.
		
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Its not theirs to scrap. Now try answering his question


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scrap Trident and HS2 for starters.
		
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Wouldn't save Scotland any money to reduce budget deficits as isnt Scotlands to scrap.

Edit : SR beat me to it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			ok - I'm not defending it. But my view is that its blatantly obvious these folk are at it and this should actually prevent folk from voting for them.

As I said, it's very easy to be in a bubble seeing loads of this stuff on social media and realising how blatant it is. But it could potentially do them some damage. I guess we won't really know until Friday.
		
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True colours are being shown - I do hope folks are paying attention...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 10, 2019)

DRW said:



			Sorry lost interest as soon as you said that, I never have liked the green eyed monster outlook, as it leads to wrong policies.
		
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So is greed and gluttony acceptable because the person who highlights it or raises it is envious?
Moral compass must be playing up..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			again, the same old vitriol assuming that the press is to blame, or lying politicians and nobody can make their own mind up or if they do they are wrong as they have been duped by charlatans!!!!!!! And that lies and spin only come from one side......
		
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I posted

_...and so what do the Brexit Party supporting electorate do when they do not have a Brexit Party candidate to vote for, and their hero Nigel is today again telling them that Johnson's deal is *not *Brexit, and that Johnson is basically lying when he says vote Tory to Get Brexit Done - because it won't be._

_Oh I could LOL with Farage actually telling the truth about GBD - if it weren't so miserably depressing that these two charlatans have brought us to this mess._

Where in what I posted did I assume the press is to blame?  Where did I say anyone was lying?  Where is the vitriol you accuse me of?  I merely pointed out that FARAGE is calling Johnson a liar over GBD by telling Brexit supporters that what Johnson is saying about GBD is not true - if it's not true then what is it?


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			True colours are being shown - I do hope folks are paying attention...
		
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Yeah - in both directions!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yeah - in both directions!
		
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Any blatant lies from Labour yesterday or today?

And Ashworth squirming over his words about Corbyn does not make a lie.

In any case - only Johnson is going to be PM...


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any blatant lies from Labour yesterday or today?

And Ashworth squirming over his words about Corbyn does not make a lie.
		
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I guess Corbyn said again that anyone earning under £80k wouldn't pay more tax which us a total lie


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I guess Corbyn said again that anyone earning under £80k wouldn't pay more tax which us a total lie
		
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Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...

Self-employed?  Not sure that self-employed can say for 100% how much they do earn in a year.  The nature of being self-employed.  But OK.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any blatant lies from Labour yesterday or today?

And Ashworth squirming over his words about Corbyn does not make a lie.

In any case - only Johnson is going to be PM...
		
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How about only those earning over £80k will pay more tax?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...
		
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The marriage allowance being removed.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...
		
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Increase in corporation tax and scrapping the married persons tax allowance are two that will definitely increase taxes for those on less than £80k.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...
		
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Removing the marriage allowance will cost  those of us claiming it £240 a year. When confronted by Andew Neil about it Corbyn said " well it's only £240"


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Anyhow:
_LETS GET BREXIT DONE_
__


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Removing the marriage allowance will cost  those of us claiming it £240 a year. When confronted by Andew Neil about it Corbyn said " well it's only £240"
		
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Why haven't I been claiming that?


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why haven't I been claiming that?
		
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Don't tempt me😣😣😣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyhow:
_LETS GET BREXIT DONE_
__

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very funny


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Don't tempt me😣😣😣
		
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ah right - it only makes sense if one of the couple earns less than £12,500.  

So if I am a wealthy banker and my husband does a wee job in a shop - then I - the wealthy banker - can get an additional £1,250 added to my personal allowance.  I see. 

Note: Use of 'wealthy banker' and 'wee job in a shop' are purely illustrative examples of jobs a couple could hold.

But I agree - this being the case then for many lower earning married couples it is appropriate that measures should be put in place to compensate that lower earning couple for the loss.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why haven't I been claiming that?
		
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Depends whether your wife is using her tax free allowance


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## DRW (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...

Self-employed?  Not sure that self-employed can say for 100% how much they do earn in a year.  The nature of being self-employed.  But OK.
		
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Strange reply to say, as a self employed person doesn't 100% know what they may earn, then we can just dismiss it. Crazy thinking. You can say the same about PAYE people, may lose their jobs, But OK.

As I posted earlier on the thread :-

A edit basic rate tax payer Limited company owner receiving dividends, will find the dividend tax increasing from 7.5% to 20%.

In addition they have said they will remove the dividend allowance of £2000 which currently is at 0%, then taxed at 20%

Married couple allowance transfer will affect some people, who can do that.

Corporation tax increasing from 19% to 21%, affects Ltd earning profits above ZERO

Taxing Capital Gains at income tax levels

VAT on private school fees (you don't have to be earning £80k each for this to affect someone)

Second Homes Tax  (you don't have to be earning £80k, this could be due a house left to you, or holiday home etc for example)

Don't get me wrong, some of the above I can agree with, but to believe only people earning 80k and above are paying for this, is wrong.

Maybe I can suggest again you read this :-

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf

This for business, on top of the non tax changes, will just be unaffordable. And you need to read the manifestos to get the knowledge.


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## Mudball (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is what journalism looks like.  It is under threat and at the end of the day society is the loser.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204344653174181888

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What an absolutely brilliant and measured response..  Post of the day and restores my faith in old style journos... I hope he goes a long way - though i think the Tories will win the fight on social media.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Despite voting Tory for many elections, as do large swathes of Kent, if the leading players jn the Labour party were not anti semitic, terrorist loving Marxist following lying morons then I could easily switch allegiances. So, vote Tory GET BREXIT DONE, vote in a new Labour leader, Chancellor and Home Secretary in waiting, and then I'd possibly lend them my vote in 5 years time 👍


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Self-employed?  Not sure that self-employed can say for 100% how much they do earn in a year.  The nature of being self-employed.  But OK.
		
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What absolute nonsense. I'm self employed and every year I have to file my accounts. I know down to the last penny what I've earned in that year.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Despite voting Tory for many elections, as do large swathes of Kent, if the leading players jn the Labour party were not anti semitic, terrorist loving Marxist following lying morons then I could easily switch allegiances. So, vote Tory GET BREXIT DONE, vote in a new Labour leader, Chancellor and Home Secretary in waiting, and then I'd possibly lend them my vote in 5 years time 👍
		
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we are not allowed to call any of the law abiding politicians Morons. But i know what you mean


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I agree - this being the case then for many lower earning married couples it is appropriate that measures should be put in place to compensate that lower earning couple for the loss.
		
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Fat chance looking at Corbyns face in the interview


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me again which policy in the Labour manifesto will result in increased taxes for those earning less than £80k - I can't remember...

Self-employed?  Not sure that self-employed can say for 100% how much they do earn in a year.  The nature of being self-employed.  But OK.
		
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Im self employed but can tell you exactly what i earn through the set amount on the contracts i have with companies using my services and through tax returns that have to be filed each year. Im nowhere near 80k in earnings but under  Labour's manifesto going to be so much worse off that id have to consider going back to PAYE as the companies i contract to have stated in Labour get in then they will cut costs by ending contracts and only employing in house.

If that happens im royally screwed as id be paying a lot extra  for the remaining time on my contracts and then earning less as PAYE👍 literally labour getting in creates the worst financial situation for my family and it would mean big changes for us.

But i don't want Tory party leadership either, hence voting for something different to both on Thursday.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Im self employed but can tell you exactly what i earn through the set amount on the contracts i have with companies using my services and through tax returns that have to be filed each year. Im nowhere near 80k in earnings but under  Labour's manifesto going to be so much worse off that id have to consider going back to PAYE as the companies i contract to have stated in Labour get in then they will cut costs by ending contracts and only employing in house.

If that happens im royally screwed as id be paying a lot extra  for the remaining time on my contracts and then earning less as PAYE👍 literally labour getting in creates the worst financial situation for my family and it would mean big changes for us.

But i don't want Tory party leadership either, hence voting for something different to both on Thursday.
		
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Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want. At least with Boris there isn't going to be huge tax increases on everything you can think of


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			What absolute nonsense. I'm self employed and every year I have to file my accounts. I know down to the last penny what I've earned in that year.
		
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Yup - I get that - but not really what I meant.  I was more thinking about what someone who is self-employed might earn the *next *financial year...or the year after...Of course they will be able to make a pretty good estimate but I'm thinking not 100% certain as self-employment has such uncertainty - risk plus opportunity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want. At least with Boris there isn't going to be *huge tax increases on everything* you can think of
		
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You can be 100% certain of that...until he is forced to for no fault of his own 

And you can be certain of it also with ANY party of government.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			- risk plus opportunity.
		
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But under Corbyn - no reward!


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## MegaSteve (Dec 10, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			we are not allowed to call any of the law abiding politicians Morons. But i know what you mean 

Click to expand...

Believe it is only team tory politicians you can't use such descriptions... As their supporters will endure a major meltdown if you do... Being the Lightweight snowflakes they are...


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And you can be certain of it also with ANY party of government.
		
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Haven't seen the Conservatives manifesto saying that, but the Labour one certainly has loads of tax hikes


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want. At least with Boris there isn't going to be huge tax increases on everything you can think of
		
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Fully understand what your saying Chris and if I only had the choice of 2 parties  (labour or tory) and based on the manifestos launched by them I'd end up voting Tory for the sake of my family. 

But I'm not voting tactically i have looked at all the options and manifestos launched by all parties running in my area and am genuinely going to vote for who fit's my views the most and neither Labour or the Tories  fit my criteriea, absolutely nothing tactical at all. 

But as I said on here just yesterday despite all the goings on and issues with both the main parties I can see Boris sitting in No10 with a glass of bubbly come Friday morning regardless.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - I get that - but not really what I meant.  I was more thinking about what someone who is self-employed might earn the *next *financial year...or the year after...Of course they will be able to make a pretty good estimate but I'm thinking not 100% certain as self-employment has such uncertainty - risk plus opportunity.
		
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If Labour get in they're still going to be paying more in tax than they are now and that's whether they earn £30k or £50k next year. Still far short of the £80k that the Labour party have been lying about.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			But as I said on here just yesterday despite all the goings on and issues with both the main parties I can see Boris sitting in No10 with a glass of bubbly come Friday morning regardless.
		
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Oh, I do hope you're right Wolf


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

[QUOTE="chrisd, post: 2090257, member: 3139"*]Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want.* At least with Boris there isn't going to be huge tax increases on everything you can think of[/QUOTE]

Isn't that the whole point of tactical strategic voting, in that you are voting to try and avoid someone you really don't want getting into power?  So for example I if really do not want Boris in power, instead of voting for my usual party I could vote for the party that has the best chance of beating him in my constituency.  And if they do indeed end up in power then it is a success as Boris is not in power.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why haven't I been claiming that?
		
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Your fault I did tell everyone about it on here a couple of years ago.


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## drdel (Dec 10, 2019)

Tactical voting is like trying to agree something with your partner. You both end up doing something neither of you wanted to do.

Any vote that is not for a main party will bring a risk of a hung Parliament and if that happens we will stagger on in disarray for even more years with immense damage to our economy.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



*Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want.* At least with Boris there isn't going to be huge tax increases on everything you can think of
		
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			Isn't that the whole point of tactical strategic voting, in that you are voting to try and avoid someone you really don't want getting into power?  So for example I if really do not want Boris in power, instead of voting for my usual party I could vote for the party that has the best chance of beating him in my constituency.  And if they do indeed end up in power then it is a success as Boris is not in power.
		
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 For so many there won't be any party they want in power.  I can see there being a lot of no-voters or paper spoilers.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Tactical voting is like trying to agree something with your partner. You both end up doing something neither of you wanted to do.

Any vote that is not for a main party will bring a risk of a hung Parliament and if that happens we will stagger on in disarray for even more years with immense damage to our economy.
		
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Just imagine another round of what's been going on in parliament recently 😕


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Tactical voting is like trying to agree something with your partner. You both end up doing something neither of you wanted to do.

Any vote that is not for a main party will bring a risk of a hung Parliament and if that happens we will stagger on in disarray for even more years with* immense damage to our economy.*

Click to expand...

On a scale of Corbyn (1 or 10 depending on who you vote for) to Brexit (1 or 10 depending on how you vote for) how dangerous will it be?


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just imagine another round of what's been going on in parliament recently 😕
		
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Just the theme of the Tory election broadcast just shown


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

Had a phone call an hour ago, apparently from Ben Bradleys team ( our Tory MP). Anyway they wanted to know who i am voting for. I told them i am not saying who but it will deffo not be Corbyn. I said " I will not be voting for the best option, but making sure i don't vote for the worst option".For me theres a massive difference. I went onto say that i believe the worst Government in History will be voted in. That being a Tory government. Because we have the worst ever opposition party in Labour, and the most inept opposition leader ever in Corbyn.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just the theme of the Tory election broadcast just shown
		
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Boris for an Oscar  shame he couldn't do a take from "True Lies"


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			For so many there won't be any party they want in power.  I can see there being a lot of no-voters or paper spoilers.
		
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especially as the weather will be rammel.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just the theme of the Tory election broadcast just shown
		
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Haven't seen it but what category of CCHQ propaganda does it fall into this time?

a) Outright lies
b) A doomed attempt to make Boris look empathetic, relatable and truthful
c) More banging on about Getting Brexit Done
d) All of the above


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Haven't seen it but what category of CCHQ propaganda does it fall into this time?

a) Outright lies
b) A doomed attempt to make Boris look empathetic, relatable and truthful
c) More banging on about Getting Brexit Done
d) All of the above
		
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You've let me down, you've let the forum down, but most of all you've let yourself down. We're not angry we're disappointed. It's your duty to watch it asap and come back to us with a #factcheck of it.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Haven't seen it but what category of CCHQ propaganda does it fall into this time?

a) Outright lies
b) A doomed attempt to make Boris look empathetic, relatable and truthful
c) More banging on about Getting Brexit Done
d) All of the above
		
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If you haven't seen it, it's based on the Disney film Bambi, he comes across as sweet and lovable


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Strategic voting is fine Wolf so long as you dont put into power someone else you really dont want. At least with Boris there isn't going to be *huge tax increases *on everything you can think of
		
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Just lots of cuts affecting millions more 🙄



chrisd said:



			Just the theme of the Tory election broadcast just shown
		
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Did they concentrate on their succesfull past ten years 

I wonder why they aren’t using the past ten years in their election campaign - highlight all those promises they have kept  from previous campaigns 🤔


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## User62651 (Dec 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Tactical voting is like trying to agree something with your partner. You both end up doing something neither of you wanted to do.

Any vote that is not for a main party will *bring a risk of a hung Parliament* and if that happens we will stagger on in disarray for even more years with immense damage to our economy.
		
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Rainbow coalition governments function fine in many countries and provide checks and balances, their parliamentarians seem to behave like grown ups too, coalition arguably a good thing rather than let hard right or hard left do whatever they want in turn, no matter the cost.
Saying that it seems the UK just doesn't work politically any more. Dont know how things will improve but another 5 years of Conservatism under the current cabinet of Johnson, Rees Mogg, Hancock, Gove and their ilk will fill many with utter dread. There will no sense of magnanimousness, just gloating and provocation should Tories win a working majority.

Expect political turmoil for the foreseeable, it's here to stay no matter how it goes on Thursday. Might sound pessimistic but there is no sense of unity and Boris winning certainly won't bring any.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just lots of cuts affecting millions more 🙄



Did they concentrate on their succesfull past ten years 

I wonder why they aren’t using the past ten years in their election campaign - highlight all those promises they have kept  from previous campaigns 🤔
		
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They couldn't possibly adversely affect more people than the Labour's manifesto promises to.

They dont need to highlight the successes as you and I are still in work, something that will quickly change if Labour win

Best Government since the wonderful Maggie era 😋😋


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

It would be interesting to know 

1. Who is voting Labour just to stop Tory getting in and vice versa

2. The others that are voting Tory or Labour is it a historic thing 

3. Those hardened Tory supporters - what would you count as a success from the Tory government over the past ten years ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They couldn't possibly adversely affect more people than the Labour's manifesto promises to.
		
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Are they ? So these proposed tax increases will affect more than the cuts we have had and no doubt will continue to have ? Are there that many earning over £80k a year ?




			They dont need to highlight the successes as you and I are still in work, something that will quickly change if Labour win

Best Government since the wonderful Maggie era 😋😋
		
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Why will i be out of work under Labour ? 

My company has already had multiple rounds of redundancies under the Tories.

If they are the best then im sure you will highlight the successes. And Thatcher ? Is that a deliberate wind up.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they ? So these proposed tax increases will affect more than the cuts we have had and no doubt will continue to have ? Are there that many earning over £80k a year ?
		
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Why are you still talking about people earning over £80k when that figure has been shown to be a lie several times? 

There are just under 5 million self employed people in the UK and close to 25 million married people so there's close to 30 million people that could be affected by Labour's tax rises.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why are you still talking about people earning over £80k when that figure has been shown to be a lie several times?

There are just under 5 million self employed people in the UK and close to 25 million married people so there's close to 30 million people that could be affected by Labour's tax rises.
		
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So that’s £250 a year that a married couple will lose on tax relief - wow a whole £250 a year 

And it’s not every married couple that can apply for it so the 25 mil is prob a little off 

And yep self employed people will have to pay more on dividend tax


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just lots of cuts affecting millions more 🙄



Did they concentrate on their succesfull past ten years

I wonder why they aren’t using the past ten years in their election campaign - highlight all those promises they have kept  from previous campaigns 🤔
		
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what like the imigration targets so close to the rights heart... 

independent.co.uk/voices/campaigns/dropthetarget/net-migration-pledge-broken-conservatives-theresa-may-migration-eu-international-a7729811.html


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would be interesting to know

1. Who is voting Labour just to stop Tory getting in and vice versa

2. The others that are voting Tory or Labour is it a historic thing

3. Those hardened Tory supporters - what would you count as a success from the Tory government over the past ten years ?
		
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1) Would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for Corbyns Labour so yes, will vote Conservative but not just to kerp labour out but necause theyre the current best choice.
2)  Not historic, I have voted Labour, Liberal and Tory.
3) Reducing the defecit created by labour, giving us the chance to leave the EU,  Creating a strong economy with almost record employment levels, reducing the size of the state, attracting huge inward investment into the UK, keeping the excesses of union power under control, standing firm against international terrorism, maintaining first class security systems, not allowing spending on the NHS to fall behind inflation, getting a large number off state benefits and into work. 
Thats enough to be going on with and before you start calling me an uncaring Tory, you asked for this.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So that’s £250 a year that a married couple will lose on tax relief - wow a whole £250 a year

And it’s not every married couple that can apply for it so the 25 mil is prob a little off

And yep self employed people will have to pay more on dividend tax
		
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But they will lose it and its the worst off that it will hit the hardest.  You cant use that arguement against people under £80k not paying more tax. If it had been Boris saying it you would be calling him a LIAR!


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what like the imigration targets so close to the rights heart... 

independent.co.uk/voices/campaigns/dropthetarget/net-migration-pledge-broken-conservatives-theresa-may-migration-eu-international-a7729811.html

Click to expand...


Quite difficult to limit immigration as part of the EU given that anyone and everyone can just walk into the country


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what like the imigration targets so close to the rights heart... 

independent.co.uk/voices/campaigns/dropthetarget/net-migration-pledge-broken-conservatives-theresa-may-migration-eu-international-a7729811.html

Click to expand...

If they had met those immigration targets the likes of you would be screaming the Torys were pulling up the drawbridge. 🙄


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So that’s £250 a year that a married couple will lose on tax relief - *wow a whole £250 a year*

And it’s not every married couple that can apply for it so the 25 mil is prob a little off

And yep self employed people will have to pay more on dividend tax
		
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Are you Jeremy Corbyn in disguise, that was pretty much his response. Or maybe you're Boris in disguise as you seem so happy to throw proven lies around.

The £80k figure is as much of a lie as the £350 million on the side of the bus or the Tories 40 new hospitals and yet you're still happy to use it. I assume that means that we won't hear any criticism from you about Boris or Tory lies from now on because that would make you a hypocrite.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite difficult to limit immigration as part of the EU given that anyone and everyone can just walk into the country
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit


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## Beezerk (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would be interesting to know

1. Who is voting Labour just to stop Tory getting in and vice versa

2. The others that are voting Tory or Labour is it a historic thing

3. Those hardened Tory supporters - what would you count as a success from the Tory government over the past ten years ?
		
Click to expand...

Lifelong Labour voter however I also voted Leave so unfortunately the Tories will be getting my vote this time around. Get Brexit sorted, then move on and see what happens.
Saying that, even if Labour had promised to get Brexit sorted I wouldn't have voted for them, their leadership is far too toxic for me and quite obviously throwing about crazy promises they could never seriously achieve.
Imo all this NHS horse poo is just a sideshow created by Labour to try and get away from discussing Brexit in the lead up to the election.
Should I feel ashamed for voting Tory bearing in mind where I grew up? Maybe, but this stalemate in the HoC needs sorting out so we can get on with our lives.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you Jeremy Corbyn in disguise, that was pretty much his response. Or maybe you're Boris in disguise as you seem so happy to throw proven lies around.
		
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It seems a fair comment to me - why should people get tax relief just for being married ? I have no problems at all with removing something I believe shouldnt happen 



			The £80k figure is as much of a lie as the £350 million on the side of the bus or the Tories 40 new hospitals and yet you're still happy to use it. I assume that means that we won't hear any criticism from you about Boris or Tory lies from now on because that would make you a hypocrite.
		
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Is the £80k figure a lie then ? Are they not going to be taxed more under Labours plans ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So that’s £250 a year that a married couple will lose on tax relief - wow a whole £250 a year

And it’s not every married couple that can apply for it so the 25 mil is prob a little off

And yep self employed people will have to pay more on dividend tax
		
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Most certainly isn't every married couple.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			1) Would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for Corbyns Labour so yes, will vote Conservative but not just to kerp labour out but necause theyre the current best choice.
2)  Not historic, I have voted Labour, Liberal and Tory.
3) Reducing the defecit created by labour, giving us the chance to leave the EU,  Creating a strong economy with almost record employment levels, reducing the size of the state, attracting huge inward investment into the UK, keeping the excesses of union power under control, standing firm against international terrorism, maintaining first class security systems, not allowing spending on the NHS to fall behind inflation, getting a large number off state benefits and into work.
Thats enough to be going on with and before you start calling me an uncaring Tory, you asked for this.
		
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👍

I wonder why the Tories don’t use your successes in an election campaign ? Or are they successes from one angle ?

1. The deficit has decreased but it also was its highest this budget since four years and of course we all know that the debt on the country is around £1.8 Trillion now - that’s not great 

2. Employment levels are higher than for years - that can only be a good thing , should be something that is highlighted by them - but how many are on “zero hour contracts” ? I found this a good article 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....loyment-still-low-we-are-working-longer-hours

But then this also mentioned the “hidden” unemployed ? 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....oyment-hidden-labour-market-a9160146.html?amp

3. Reducing the size of the state ? Not sure what that means ?

4. Leaving the EU - again that’s a success when looking from one angle but a complete failure from another 

5. Attracting investment- another success they should highlight - but how much of that reaches beyond the city and down to beinf in the EU ? Who knows 

6. Getting people off benefits - how many are suffering because of the rules they brought in and how many now need to go to food banks ? Universal credit not exactly a roaring success 

7. Standing firm against Terrorism ? Hasn’t every government done that ?

8. NHS - well from my point of view I wouldn’t class anything in regards the NHS as a success


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

Click to expand...


At a quick read  it confirms that EU nationals CAN just walk in. If they dont find work they could have been asked to leave after 3 months, this was never implemented and Tony Blair stopped outgoing people  being recorded as leaving


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			At a quick read  it confirms that EU nationals CAN just walk in. If they dont find work they could have been asked to leave after 3 months, this was never implemented and Tony Blair stopped outgoing people  being recorded as leaving
		
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So why haven’t the Tories implemented it then ? What is stopping them ? It would certainly help with their promises


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Interesting that MI5 are leaking that Corbyn was put on a watch list over his IRA connections, it surely dispels the theory that he was helping to broker a peace deal


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is the £80k figure a lie then ? Are they not going to be taxed more under Labours plans ?
		
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Are some people earning less than £80k going to have to pay more in tax? If the answer to that question is yes then it is a lie to say that tax rises will only be for the top 5% of earners, those earning over £80k.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Interesting that MI5 are leaking that Corbyn was put on a watch list over his IRA connections, it surely dispels the theory that he was helping to broker a peace deal
		
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More worrying that the establishment want to get involved in a campaign. The inner world who will really benefit from a Tory government looking after their own........as always


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are some people earning less than £80k going to have to pay more in tax? If the answer to that question is yes then it is a lie to say that tax rises will only be for the top 5% of earners, those earning over £80k.
		
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I didnt say that tax rises will “only be for the top 5% “ earners



chrisd said:



			Interesting that MI5 are leaking that Corbyn was put on a watch list over his IRA connections, it surely dispels the theory that he was helping to broker a peace deal
		
Click to expand...

So if he wasn’t helping to broker a peace deal was it you think he was doing then ?

Getting close to be a very strong accusation


----------



## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are some people earning less than £80k going to have to pay more in tax? If the answer to that question is yes then it is a lie to say that tax rises will only be for the top 5% of earners, those earning over £80k.
		
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There are many other taxes they may be affected by. Dividend tax is changing as is capital gains, as is small business tax, corporation tax, 2nd house tax to name a few


----------



## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So if he wasn’t helping to broker a peace deal was it you think he was doing then ?

Getting close to be a very strong accusation
		
Click to expand...


He has spent most of his life sympathising with terrorist organisations


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2019)

This is just weird !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204505005530734592


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You've let me down, you've let the forum down, but most of all you've let yourself down. We're not angry we're disappointed. It's your duty to watch it asap and come back to us with a #factcheck of it. 

Click to expand...

Trouble is that would involve doing a google/social media search for 'Conservative party political broadcast'.  And then the next thing you know I'll be getting bombarded with suggestions to like all the 73 people with exactly the same friend who work for the hospital in Leeds and suggestions I follow Katie Hopkins and journalists at The Telegraph.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			He has spent most of his life sympathising with terrorist organisations
		
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That’s just a generic statement that seems to get blurted out now 


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....corbyn-terrorist-sympathiser-double-standards

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/art...orbyn’s-peacemaker-not-terrorist-sympathiser’


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s just a generic statement that seems to get blurted out now 


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....corbyn-terrorist-sympathiser-double-standards

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/art...orbyn’s-peacemaker-not-terrorist-sympathiser’

Click to expand...

But true


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you Jeremy Corbyn in disguise, that was pretty much his response. Or maybe you're Boris in disguise as you seem so happy to throw proven lies around.

The £80k figure is as much of a lie as the £350 million on the side of the bus or the Tories 40 new hospitals and yet you're still happy to use it. I assume that means that we won't hear any criticism from you about Boris or Tory lies from now on because that would make you a hypocrite.
		
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The £80k figure may or may not be a lie in terms of income tax... I can't be harris'd arguing the toss on that one. But in terms of indirect taxation pretty much everyone is going to be taxed, and not just in one area.

Financial transaction tax; those of you that, for example, buy over £1,000 in foreign currency for a holiday, or load a money card will pay an indirect transaction tax, i.e. the company you bought it from will be taxed on that transaction, and of course they won't pass that new tax on to the customer. Those of you that have a pension pot based around stocks and shares, pretty much everyone, will get well clobbered as the income tax rate on dividends is significantly increased. Reverse the tax cuts on inheritance tax.

If anyone can be bothered to actually read Labour's overall taxation plan they will see that the headline grabber of they will only tax people earning over £80k is, like pretty much all political statements, extremely disingenuous. They might not be taking it out of your wages but they will absolutely be taking it from you in indirect taxes.

And then you get 'throw aways' like Labour will be investing significantly in R&D grants via its new transformation fund..... Whoopie-flippin-do!!! But what they don't tell you behind that headline is they will be ending R&D tax breaks for companies. Again, go and read the detail. According to Labour it will save a fortune - yes it will because the proposed R&D grants will be less than the tax breaks. Cost of manufacturing goes up = cost of product will go up... I wonder who will pay for that


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## PNWokingham (Dec 10, 2019)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...omy-counts-cost-lingering-brexit-uncertainty/

It is these sort of policies (including the wholsale nationalisation) that i think are the really scary aspects of the labour policies. They put the red flag up to the rest of the world on business investment


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite difficult to limit immigration as part of the EU given that anyone and everyone can just walk into the country
		
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Under Johnson's Brexit plan they will still be able to.
Belfast to Stranraer no pedestrian passport checks.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			👍

I wonder why the Tories don’t use your successes in an election campaign ? Or are they successes from one angle ?

1. The deficit has decreased but it also was its highest this budget since four years and of course we all know that the debt on the country is around £1.8 Trillion now - that’s not great

2. Employment levels are higher than for years - that can only be a good thing , should be something that is highlighted by them - but how many are on “zero hour contracts” ? I found this a good article

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....loyment-still-low-we-are-working-longer-hours

But then this also mentioned the “hidden” unemployed ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-unemployment-hidden-labour-market-a9160146.html?amp

3. Reducing the size of the state ? Not sure what that means ?

4. Leaving the EU - again that’s a success when looking from one angle but a complete failure from another

5. Attracting investment- another success they should highlight - but how much of that reaches beyond the city and down to beinf in the EU ? Who knows

6. Getting people off benefits - how many are suffering because of the rules they brought in and how many now need to go to food banks ? Universal credit not exactly a roaring success

7. Standing firm against Terrorism ? Hasn’t every government done that ?

8. NHS - well from my point of view I wouldn’t class anything in regards the NHS as a success
		
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You asked people to give their opinions. When they do you then try to prove everything they post as wrong if its not in line with your views.
Why not just post up your own views to start with as all you are looking for is to disagree with people.  Dont ask again as you are just being petty and if I reply to the points you make you will just disagree again ad infanitem.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Under Johnson's Brexit plan they will still be able to.
Belfast to Stranraer no pedestrian passport checks.
		
Click to expand...

But when you vote to leave  and join the EU there will hopefully be a proper border and passport checks 😁


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You asked people to give their opinions. When they do you then try to prove everyhing they post as wrong if its not in line with your view.
Why not just post up your own views to start with as all you are looking for is to disagree with people.  Dont ask again as you are just being petty.
		
Click to expand...

That would take away all his enjoyment, hence why I only answer what I choose to, even though Phil will always claim I cant answer his Anrew Neil like questions, I can but just get bored with the same old game 😣


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s just a generic statement that seems to get blurted out now


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....corbyn-terrorist-sympathiser-double-standards

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/art...orbyn’s-peacemaker-not-terrorist-sympathiser’

Click to expand...

Does the word  'Generic' now mean 'anything LP disagrees with '
🙄


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			That would take away all his enjoyment, hence why I only answer what I choose to, even though Phil will always claim I cant answer his Anrew Neil like questions, I can but just get bored with the same old game 😣
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I should know by now that he is just fishing for people to reply so he can disagree with them.  His posts are very 'Generic' 🤭


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You asked people to give their opinions. When they do you then try to prove everything they post as wrong if its not in line with your views.
Why not just post up your own views to start with as all you are looking for is to disagree with people.  Dont ask again as you are just being petty and if I reply to the points you make you will just disagree again ad infanitem.
		
Click to expand...

You must have learnt by now LP generally only joins a thread to prove he's always right even though an opinion can never be factually proven as right. Also shows happiness of calling Boris and Tories out for lies but will sit there and accept Labour's as they suit his interests.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You must have learnt by now LP generally only joins a thread to prove he's always right even though an opinion can never be factually proven as right. Also shows happiness of calling Boris and Tories out for lies but will sit there and accept Labour's as they suit his interests.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I should know better than to feed his Saintimoniousness. Must repair 20 pitch marks and replace 30 divots.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You asked people to give their opinions. When they do you then try to prove everything they post as wrong if its not in line with your views.
Why not just post up your own views to start with as all you are looking for is to disagree with people.  Dont ask again as you are just being petty and if I reply to the points you make you will just disagree again ad infanitem.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I thought you wanted people to debate opinions ? You posted up what you believe were success and I posted up my opinions on that ? Is that not what this all about ? Adult discussion?

Wasn’t it you yesterday who told me to stop being dramatic or something along those lines? Or is it only the case when that suits you - as per normal



chrisd said:



			That would take away all his enjoyment, hence why I only answer what I choose to, even though Phil will always claim I cant answer his Anrew Neil like questions, I can but just get bored with the same old game 😣
		
Click to expand...

Your Tory leader would be very proud of you , you are everything he dreamed off



SocketRocket said:



			Does the word  'Generic' now mean 'anything LP disagrees with '
🙄
		
Click to expand...

Surely you aren’t getting petty and posting sniping remarks , especially after your little lecture 🙄



Wolf said:



			You must have learnt by now LP generally only joins a thread to prove he's always right even though an opinion can never be factually proven as right. Also shows happiness of calling Boris and Tories out for lies but will sit there and accept Labour's as they suit his interests.
		
Click to expand...

Making it a bit personal there aren’t you - well that is the Tory way

im not sure what Labour lies i have accepted 🤔



SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I should know better than to feed his Saintimoniousness. Must repair 20 pitch marks and replace 30 divots.
		
Click to expand...

Surely not another petty sniping remark 🙄

nah can’t be you as that would be very hypocritical of you 🙄


Paul was right - there is zero point engaging on here with people like you - entrenched. I think most of left the thread now because of you so I’ll join them


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2019)

Market gets twitchy


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204531936028504069


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204533945133621249


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## Wolf (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Making it a bit personal there aren’t you - well that is the Tory way
		
Click to expand...

You clearly dont read posts very well as  I've stated several times im not a  Tory supporter so try again LP
... All I've done is point out exactly your posting style not only in this thread but in every thread that you drag down with your style that suggests only you can be right, you never accept someone has a different opinion or belief to you.


Liverpoolphil said:



			im not sure what Labour lies i have accepted 🤔
		
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Its already been pointed out to you earlier today have you generalised it though to accept its ok in your mind so it didn't really happen.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your Tory leader would be very proud of you , you are everything he dreamed of
		
Click to expand...

Yes, a proud voter for values I agree with. Better than voting for a millionaire who doesn't like billionaires. A supporter of terrorist ideals. Someone who's going to tax the shehite out of everyone in loads of different ways, wreck businesses, cause unemployment, get rid of our defences, keep us in the EU against democracy, seemingly fall out with countries like Australia, make a self confessed Marxist our Chancellor and .......... so on and on !

 Seriously Phil?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I thought you wanted people to debate opinions ? You posted up what you believe were success and I posted up my opinions on that ? Is that not what this all about ? Adult discussion?

Wasn’t it you yesterday who told me to stop being dramatic or something along those lines? Or is it only the case when that suits you - as per normal



Your Tory leader would be very proud of you , you are everything he dreamed off



Surely you aren’t getting petty and posting sniping remarks , especially after your little lecture 🙄



Making it a bit personal there aren’t you - well that is the Tory way

im not sure what Labour lies i have accepted 🤔



Surely not another petty sniping remark 🙄

nah can’t be you as that would be very hypocritical of you 🙄
		
Click to expand...

You just dont see it. Its pointless trying to debate anything with you, what you do is make a pretence of asking a question but all you are doing is going on a fishing trip so that you can disagree with everything the responder says and you also trawl the net to find editorials that agree with your view which is pointless as there are internet links that agree with just about anything.
All you are going to do is go around in never ending circles and never agreeing with anything.  Just look at your responces when I answered your questions, everytime you add a rider like you did on the good employment numbers, you have to say how many of those are zero hour contracts when a quick google will show that most are full time jobs, if I said that you would then accuse me of being generic.  Its just a waste of time and I won't be dragged into your little mind games again.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its just a waste of time and I won't be dragged into your little mind games again.
		
Click to expand...

Hence why I only now answer when I want to and refuse to be dragged into a cut and paste war 👍👍


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## 2blue (Dec 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:
Its just a waste of time and I won't be dragged into your little mind games again.
		
Click to expand...




chrisd said:



			Hence why I only now answer when I want to and refuse to be dragged into a cut and paste war 👍👍
		
Click to expand...

What a  pair of dib, dibbers you two are.........  no where to be seen when the country needs you. Regular light-weights.


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2019)

2blue said:



			What a  pair of dib, dibbers you two are.........  no where to be seen when the country needs you. Regular light-weights. 

Click to expand...

says the commie ex-miner whose pin-up girl is Maggie Thatcher

C’mon Dave, you’ve not added one shred of political comment in this debate, choosing instead to attack people because of their beliefs rather than try to educate them towards what you believe to be a better way.

I thought the old 70’s way of “out brothers” and building burning barricades had been educated out of the masses...


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yes, a proud voter for values I agree with. Better than voting for a millionaire who doesn't like billionaires. A supporter of terrorist ideals. Someone who's going to tax the shehite out of everyone in loads of different ways, wreck businesses, cause unemployment, get rid of our defences, keep us in the EU against democracy, seemingly fall out with countries like Australia, make a self confessed Marxist our Chancellor and .......... so on and on !

 Seriously Phil?
		
Click to expand...

I get the feeling You’re not a fan of red jezza


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			says the commie ex-miner whose pin-up girl is Maggie Thatcher

Click to expand...

Oh god that will be in next years pirelli calendar 

I have had the last 4 and just cannot be bothered to unpack them


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Oh god that will be in next years pirelli calendar 

I have had the last 4 and just cannot be bothered to unpack them
		
Click to expand...

Honestly, you wouldn't want a pic of Dave in your calendar...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Honestly, you wouldn't want a pic of Dave in your calendar...

Click to expand...

No, perhaps not


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Dando said:



			I get the feeling You’re not a fan of red jezza
		
Click to expand...

Well, i guess I  wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Well, i guess I  wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire
		
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He’s not as bad as Patrick Reed .. that’s very harsh. 
I would happily pee on them all even without fire being involved. Especially after I have enjoyed some asparagus.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He’s not as bad as Patrick Reed .. that’s very harsh. 
I would happily pee on them all even without fire being involved. Especially after I have enjoyed some asparagus.
		
Click to expand...

Except that Patrick Reed once called me Sir, something that Red Jezza hasn't ever done, oh go on yes I'll pee on Jezza if necessary, given at my age I do have regular pee stops so I wouldn't be wasting any


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Surely you aren’t getting petty and posting sniping remarks* , especially after your little lecture 🙄
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



*Your Tory leader would be very proud of you , you are everything he dreamed off*

Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Making it a bit personal there aren’t you - *well that is the Tory way*

Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



*that would be very hypocritical*

Click to expand...

Has anyone got a spare irony meter? Mine just exploded.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has anyone got a spare irony meter? Mine just exploded.
		
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Sorry mine just put its hands up, shook its head and turned itself off  🤔


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

Laura Pidcock, Durham MP, has just been truly awful and out of her depth on ITV this morning.  Do HQ not do test interviews with MPs before setting them loose? I'm not sure how many votes she has just cost but it is many 😳


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But when you vote to leave  and join the EU there will hopefully be a proper border and passport checks 😁
		
Click to expand...



I notice you do not deny my comment, just more deflection and waffle when dealt with an uncomfortable truth......….it's the Tory way.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Laura Pidcock, Durham MP, has just been truly awful and out of her depth on ITV this morning.  Do HQ not do test interviews with MPs before setting them loose? *I'm not sure how many votes she has just cost but it is many* 😳
		
Click to expand...

I suspect at this stage after weeks of orchestrated fake news, promises that have been exposed as at best fanciful and at worst utterly unachievable, claims of antisemitism, Islamophobia, etc etc not many are going change their minds now.  Didn't see the interview but both sides have very poor members of the cabinets/shadow cabinets who frankly, if it was based on competency, should not be there. It's just that their ideologies match those of the dear leader and they can be relied on to toe the party line like a programmed robot . Indeed both sides have very prominent members of the party who have been hidden away from the public as they are deemed to be so toxic. Which kind of says it all really. But I'll go back to an old sore and say at least she fronted up and was prepared to answer which I assume were tricky questions.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite difficult to limit immigration as part of the EU given that anyone and everyone can just walk into the country
		
Click to expand...

the conservatives had has as election pledges in their last 3 Gov, to reduce imigration and have set targets, in that time they have not met those targets in fact its gone up and the rise has been those from outside the EU that they do have control over and what did they do to inforce that??? cut Border force staff

its a great hook for the Tory's keep on about Imigration all the while doing nothing about it, and why? they can keep rolling out they are ani imigaration and people like you will lap it up and keep voting for them


----------



## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect at this stage after weeks of orchestrated fake news, promises that have been exposed as at best fanciful and at worst utterly unachievable, claims of antisemitism, Islamophobia, etc etc not many are going change their minds now.  Didn't see the interview but both sides have very poor members of the cabinets/shadow cabinets who frankly, if it was based on competency, should not be there. It's just that their ideologies match those of the dear leader and they can be relied on to toe the party line like a programmed robot . Indeed both sides have very prominent members of the party who have been hidden away from the public as they are deemed to be so toxic. Which kind of says it all really. But I'll go back to an old sore and say at least she fronted up and was prepared to answer which I assume were tricky questions.
		
Click to expand...

Yes brave ... or was it the naivety of youth?
I really struggle with career politicians, for me irrespective which side of the house you stand I would prefer you to have a life experience which means I expect you to be 40 ish or more. I know it's ageist but let me put it like this would you like a young doctor fresh out of med school to diagnose you or a mechanic fresh out of college fixing your car .. they may well find the answer and resolve,but some stuff is not about training it's about experience.


----------



## spongebob59 (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Laura Pidcock, Durham MP, has just been truly awful and out of her depth on ITV this morning.  Do HQ not do test interviews with MPs before setting them loose? I'm not sure how many votes she has just cost but it is many 😳
		
Click to expand...

What did she say/do ? We may not see this down here.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Lifelong Labour voter however I also voted Leave so unfortunately the Tories will be getting my vote this time around. Get Brexit sorted, then move on and see what happens.
Saying that, even if Labour had promised to get Brexit sorted I wouldn't have voted for them, their leadership is far too toxic for me and quite obviously throwing about crazy promises they could never seriously achieve.
Imo all this NHS horse poo is just a sideshow created by Labour to try and get away from discussing Brexit in the lead up to the election.
Should I feel ashamed for voting Tory bearing in mind where I grew up? Maybe, but this stalemate in the HoC needs sorting out so we can get on with our lives.
		
Click to expand...

i'm always staggered when i read that a lifelong labour voter would ever, ever consider voting Conservative, esp this bunch of right wing liars.

what where the reasons you ever voted Labour?


----------



## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			the conservatives had has as election pledges in their last 3 Gov, to reduce imigration and have set targets, in that time they have not met those targets in fact its gone up and the rise has been those from outside the EU that they do have control over and what did they do to inforce that??? cut Border force staff

its a great hook for the Tory's keep on about Imigration all the while doing nothing about it, and why? they can keep rolling out they are ani imigaration and people like you will lap it up and keep voting for them
		
Click to expand...

Here lies the irony .. you have a government who has missed every target going and not delivered anything but hardship .. then you have an opposing party that the opposition are saying going to be ruthlessly efficient and achieve their manifesto which will destroy the country ... Haven't the last 20 years shown us that you cannot deliver on all your manifesto promises and therefore the doom mongering we hear is just doom mongering ? I would be more worried a lack of progress and how easy it is to make throw away comments in the manifesto and for me that is the present governments problem they have done nothing for the engine room of the UK whilst in office. In fact they have dismantled it and made it less efficient to suit their own ends.


----------



## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I notice you do not deny my comment, just more deflection and waffle when dealt with an uncomfortable truth......….it's the Tory way.
		
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Oh the irony.... Roll out the Tory way comment, yet when someine quotes you on tripe you post and corrects you with facts you simply slope your shoulders and fail to respond at all... Its the Doon Way 🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2019)

https://www.statista.com/chart/16934/percentage-economic-growth-expected-in-eu-member-states/

I suppose that must be Wee Krankie holding back the mighty economic development of the UK.
There is wee poor Ireland top of the pops.


----------



## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			What did she say/do ? We may not see this down here.
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry I'm sure there are a load of Tory glove puppets as we speak seaching SM to post it on Twitter will be meemed on Guido falks in the hour and you will be able to post the link


----------



## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes brave ... or was it the naivety of youth?
I really struggle with career politicians, for me irrespective which side of the house you stand I would prefer you to have a life experience *which means I expect you to be 40 ish or more*. I know it's ageist but let me put it like this would you like a young doctor fresh out of med school to diagnose you or a mechanic fresh out of college fixing your car .. they may well find the answer and resolve,but some stuff is not about training it's about experience.
		
Click to expand...

Don't know.  There's an argument that as you get older you just get more set in your ways and are more likely to want to maintain the status quo.  Where as younger voices can bring some fresh perspective and shake things up if needed.  Look at the climate change agenda that has effectively been energized by a 16 year old. To me you need a mix, of course you do need experience so it is not just full of young idealistic dreamers, but also some new energy and fresh ideas are challenging of doing things the same old way is also needed.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect at this stage after weeks of orchestrated fake news, promises that have been exposed as at best fanciful and at worst utterly unachievable, claims of antisemitism, Islamophobia, etc etc not many are going change their minds now.  Didn't see the interview but both sides have very poor members of the cabinets/shadow cabinets who frankly, if it was based on competency, should not be there. It's just that their ideologies match those of the dear leader and they can be relied on to toe the party line like a programmed robot . Indeed both sides have very prominent members of the party who have been hidden away from the public as they are deemed to be so toxic. Which kind of says it all really. *But I'll go back to an old sore and say at least she fronted up and was prepared to answer which I assume were tricky questions.*

Click to expand...

Indeed - wherefore art thou Rees-Mogg, Fysh, Bridgen, Francois and your ilk - let's be hearing you...plenty loud enough and happy to be in the media spotlight over the last few years...silent these days.  I wonder why Team ERG are all but invisible to the electorate.  Perhaps CCHQ don't want them representing Tories who want to GBD.

Anyway - Ashworth - good to hear some truths before he had to wriggle and squirm - rather unedifyingly and not at all convincingly.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

people keep making the point both parties are telling lieshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/tech...XzixaK3QuENm_yVqGMMRaqyl4qu_ENGUO6qLoaBhWN1e0

show's who's telling the most porkies thats for sure


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			What did she say/do ? We may not see this down here.
		
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It was on GMB so national. I don't normally watch, Piers Morgan , but the BBC had a story on that I wasn't interested in and so I turned over. He asked her about the position on Brexit, a negotiating team with people who want to stay on it, and the renewal of Trident / Corbyn saying he would never press the button. She was a rabbit in the headlight and then started answering a completely different question each time in a stumbling manner, something Piers was not having. It was just plain poor. After that I turned over and John McDonnel was on answering about the Ashworth leak yesterday. You may not like his politics but McDonnel can handle himself well and brushed it off quite comfortably.

If you are going to put up politicians the day before an election then you have to make sure they are competent.

I agree with HK comment about both sides having inept, career politicians but the smart parties keep them hidden with one day to go.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...omy-counts-cost-lingering-brexit-uncertainty/

It is these sort of policies (including the wholsale nationalisation) that i think are the really scary aspects of the labour policies. They put the red flag up to the rest of the world on business investment
		
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I suspect though, the open door immigration policies big business expects/requires will be quite troubling for many dyed in the wool Tory voters...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

Still don't know which way I'm going to vote and have only narrowed it down to 3.

I've excluded, and this is genuinely true, a candidate who is a member of the US LPGA and has been banned by the courts from campaigning in the constituency as she harassed Anna Soubry.  Her slightly sinister pitch is _'My desire is to be a key player in draining the UK swamp’ of the many traitors which exist and replace them with patriots like myself. _which may appeal to one or two on this forum but afraid not to me.

The conservatives are out for many reasons, not least because our local conservative candidate was showing his compassionate Tory colours and was filmed recently saying people who use food banks struggle to budget properly.   I've got a independent hard brexiteer who wants to focus on rebuilding relationships with the Commonwealth after we leave the EU, possibly because they think it still the 1800s and we still have a Commonwealth, so he's out.  And have excluded another chap representing the Militant Elvis Stop HS2 party who in addition to stopping HS2 says _'I’d like to see an enquiry into why vet fees are so high and I’d like the police and support officers to crack down on cyclists who whizz along the pavements with no regard for pedestrians'_ and wants to '_Nationalise brothels, I’ve got a soft spot for Communism' ._

We are relatively marginal in that the the winning margin for the conservatives under Soubry was under 1000 at the last election, the Lib Dems have stepped down to give a newly independent Soubry a run at the remain vote so that leaves Labour, the Greens or Anna Soubry's TIG party. Do I go tactical to try to stop the caring compassionate Tory winning or do I vote for the one I most believe in.....


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Oh the irony.... Roll out the Tory way comment, yet when someine quotes you on tripe you post and corrects you with facts you simply slope your shoulders and fail to respond at all... Its the Doon Way 🙄
		
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Add to that Wolf, that I cannot remember the wind up merchants original comment to answer, but I do know it'll be pro Scotland, anti England, anti Tory and most probably irrelevant and really not worth bothering myself over


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still don't know which way I'm going to vote and have only narrowed it down to 3.

I've excluded, and this is genuinely true, a candidate who is a member of the US LPGA and has been banned by the courts from campaigning in the constituency as she harassed Anna Soubry.  Her pitch is _'My desire is to be a key player in draining the UK swamp’ of the many traitors which exist and replace them with patriots like myself. _which may appeal to one or two on this forum but afraid not to me.  

The conservatives are out for many reasons, not least because our local conservative candidate was showing his compassionate Tory colours and was filmed recently saying people who use food banks struggle to budget properly.   I've got a independent hard brexiteer who wants to focus on rebuilding relationships with the Commonwealth after we leave the EU, possibly because they think it still the 1800s and we still have a Commonwealth, so he's out.  And have excluded another chap representing the Militant Elvis Stop HS2 party who in addition to stopping HS2 says _'I’d like to see an enquiry into why vet fees are so high and I’d like the police and support officers to crack down on cyclists who whizz along the pavements with no regard for pedestrians'_ and wants to '_Nationalise brothels, I’ve got a soft spot for Communism' ._

So that leaves Labour, the Greens or Anna Soubry's TIG party. Do I go tactical to try to stop the caring compassionate Tory winning or do I vote for the one I most believe in.....
		
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Or move house in time for the next election 😉


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Add to that Wolf, that I cannot remember the wind up merchants original comment to answer, but I do know it'll be pro Scotland, anti England, anti Tory and most probably irrelevant and really not worth bothering myself over
		
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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't know.  There's an argument that as you get older you just get more set in your ways and are more likely to want to maintain the status quo.  Where as younger voices can bring some fresh perspective and shake things up if needed.  Look at the climate change agenda that has effectively been energized by a 16 year old. To me you need a mix, of course you do need experience so it is not just full of young idealistic dreamers, but also some new energy and fresh ideas are challenging of doing things the same old way is also needed.
		
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Interesting, but if you change career you always start invigorated in your new career and there is a good chance you can find a synergy between previous life experiences and the new role. I would like to think I could still be an idealist into my 50's (if I have not kicked the bucket), I know life does wear you down but if you have an opportunity to address that would you still feel that motivation?
I agree fresh eyes are great, new perspective etc.. but should she be the shadow sec of state ? For me it's too much too early and they need to learn, be managed and protected .. it seems she has self harmed in this interview. I have never let a junior engineer go into the firing line without prep and support and when the seniors moved out of scope, I stepped in and asked them to address those questions for another meeting and to the specialist. I never wanted my young engineers to have any negative aura about them I wanted them to be viewed positively. 
That's my life lessons.
Greta is interesting but in reality she is a media show, yes she is questioning and pushing new boundaries .. but I am not sure she is motivating the key protagonists (nor do I know how you would .. maybe tell them every dolphin or whale they save they get a gold bar ) ..


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still don't know which way I'm going to vote and have only narrowed it down to 3.

I've excluded, and this is genuinely true, a candidate who is a member of the US LPGA and has been banned by the courts from campaigning in the constituency as she harassed Anna Soubry.  Her slightly sinister pitch is _'My desire is to be a key player in draining the UK swamp’ of the many traitors which exist and replace them with patriots like myself. _which may appeal to one or two on this forum but afraid not to me.

The conservatives are out for many reasons, not least because our local conservative candidate was showing his compassionate Tory colours and was filmed recently saying people who use food banks struggle to budget properly.   I've got a independent hard brexiteer who wants to focus on rebuilding relationships with the Commonwealth after we leave the EU, possibly because they think it still the 1800s and we still have a Commonwealth, so he's out.  And have excluded another chap representing the Militant Elvis Stop HS2 party who in addition to stopping HS2 says _'I’d like to see an enquiry into why vet fees are so high and I’d like the police and support officers to crack down on cyclists who whizz along the pavements with no regard for pedestrians'_ and wants to '_Nationalise brothels, I’ve got a soft spot for Communism' ._

We are relatively marginal in that the the winning margin for the conservatives under Soubry was under 1000 at the last election, the Lib Dems have stepped down to give a newly independent Soubry a run at the remain vote so that leaves Labour, the Greens or Anna Soubry's TIG party. Do I go tactical to try to stop the caring compassionate Tory winning or do I vote for the one I most believe in.....
		
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Elvis it is then .. cyclists on paths .. disgraceful ! national brothels .. reduces violence significantly when testosterone levels are depleted ... this candidate is a visionary ! But what is their brexit stance ?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Interesting, but if you change career you always start invigorated in your new career and there is a good chance you can find a synergy between previous life experiences and the new role. I would like to think I could still be an idealist into my 50's (if I have not kicked the bucket), I know life does wear you down but if you have an opportunity to address that would you still feel that motivation?
I agree fresh eyes are great, new perspective etc.. *but should she be the shadow sec of state ? For me it's too much too early and they need to learn, be managed and protected* .. it seems she has self harmed in this interview. I have never let a junior engineer go into the firing line without prep and support and when the seniors moved out of scope, I stepped in and asked them to address those questions for another meeting and to the specialist. I never wanted my young engineers to have any negative aura about them I wanted them to be viewed positively.
That's my life lessons.
Greta is interesting but in reality she is a media show, yes she is questioning and pushing new boundaries .. but I am not sure she is motivating the key protagonists (nor do I know how you would .. maybe tell them every dolphin or whale they save they get a gold bar ) ..
		
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I think one thing I've learned looking at the current cabinet is that relative age and experience is no guarantee of competence in any shape or form. 

As for Greta totally agree a lot of it is media hype, but the environment is now a serious campaigning issue that will influence some for many parties, where as in the past it was just a throw away comment for most. Of course this is not all down to Greta as the Greens have been banging on about it for years. But sometimes you just need that spark in the right place at the right time to step things up a level. And I think. mostly through good fortune, she has done that.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Elvis it is then .. cyclists on paths .. disgraceful ! national brothels .. reduces violence significantly when testosterone levels are depleted ... this candidate is a visionary ! But what is their brexit stance ?
		
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Refreshingly he doesn't say, perhaps he wants to concentrate on the real issues.  But I also missed another important part of his manifesto '_Finally, I think there should better daytime television for OAPs – Ah-huh-huh'_


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Add to that Wolf, that I cannot remember the wind up merchants original comment to answer, but I do know it'll be pro Scotland, anti England, anti Tory and most probably irrelevant and really not worth bothering myself over
		
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Ah yes - "pro-Scotland" = "anti-England" 

Tell me, why do so many in England take personal offence at Scotland wanting to be Independent? It's not like we blame *you*, we blame, the UK system that doesn't work for us, and we want to be a normal country. Why is that so offensive to you?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Refreshingly he doesn't say, perhaps he wants to concentrate on the real issues.  But I also missed another important part of his manifesto '_Finally, I think there should better daytime television for OAPs – Ah-huh-huh'_

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Elvis, it has to be Elvis surely .

The quandry you are in is the same one thousands perhaps millions are in right now. I've known all of my life who I have been going to vote for, not this election. Even now I am not sure. I don't even have an Elvis to vote for


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Finally, I think there should better daytime television for OAPs – Ah-huh-huh'[/I]
		
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If we only had time to watch some when we're not looking after your children, doing the DIY that you never bothered to watch us do, and learn, when you were growing up, mowing your lawn as you dont have time cos you're too busy taking your kids out at weekends to leisure parks etc etc 😣😣😉😉


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'm always staggered when i read that a lifelong labour voter would ever, ever consider voting Conservative, esp this bunch of right wing liars.

what where the reasons you ever voted Labour?
		
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Maybe because apart from the label, they don't recognise the Labour Party in front of them. I have, predominantly, voted Labour but haven't this time - way too far left for me. I've voted Tory before, but too far right this time. And I've voted LibDems in the past but I'm just not connecting with them.

My vote went in the bin - "none of the above."


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Elvis, it has to be Elvis surely .

The quandry you are in is the same one thousands perhaps millions are in right now. I've known all of my life who I have been going to vote for, not this election. Even now I am not sure. I don't even have an Elvis to vote for

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Christ, even the tactical voting website gives me 2 suggestions.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Ah yes - "pro-Scotland" = "anti-England" 

Tell me, why do so many in England take personal offence at Scotland wanting to be Independent? It's not like we blame *you*, we blame, the UK system that doesn't work for us, and we want to be a normal country. Why is that so offensive to you?
		
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I dont take personal offence towards Scotland wanting to be independent, I just get fed up with a couple of posters who criticise everything English all the time


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still don't know which way I'm going to vote and have only narrowed it down to 3.

I've excluded, and this is genuinely true, a candidate who is a member of the US LPGA and has been banned by the courts from campaigning in the constituency as she harassed Anna Soubry.  Her slightly sinister pitch is _'My desire is to be a key player in draining the UK swamp’ of the many traitors which exist and replace them with patriots like myself. _which may appeal to one or two on this forum but afraid not to me.

The conservatives are out for many reasons, not least because our local conservative candidate was showing his compassionate Tory colours and was filmed recently saying people who use food banks struggle to budget properly.   I've got a independent hard brexiteer who wants to focus on rebuilding relationships with the Commonwealth after we leave the EU, possibly because they think it still the 1800s and we still have a Commonwealth, so he's out.  And have excluded another chap representing the Militant Elvis Stop HS2 party who in addition to stopping HS2 says _'I’d like to see an enquiry into why vet fees are so high and I’d like the police and support officers to crack down on cyclists who whizz along the pavements with no regard for pedestrians'_ and wants to '_Nationalise brothels, I’ve got a soft spot for Communism' ._

We are relatively marginal in that the the winning margin for the conservatives under Soubry was under 1000 at the last election, the Lib Dems have stepped down to give a newly independent Soubry a run at the remain vote so that leaves Labour, the Greens or Anna Soubry's TIG party. Do I go tactical to try to stop the caring compassionate Tory winning or do I vote for the one I most believe in.....
		
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Quite a decent post except for the bit about the commonwealth. There are thoughts within the commonwealth countries that we kinda abandoned them once we were tied up in EU trade. Was in Barbados a couple of years ago, I remember a guy taking us round the island in a taxi saying he hopes that Britain starts buying it's sugar once we have left the EU. We drove through countless fields that once provided the UK. When we leave the EU, I for one hope trade deals with the commonwealth improve.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If we only had time to watch some when we're not looking after your children, doing the DIY that you never bothered to watch us do, and learn, when you were growing up, mowing your lawn as you dont have time cos you're too busy taking your kids out at weekends to leisure parks etc etc 😣😣😉😉
		
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I have a groundskeeper to mow my lawn, nanny to look after my kids and estates manager to do the DIY, proper champagne socialist me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still don't know which way I'm going to vote and have only narrowed it down to 3.

... Do I go tactical to try to stop the caring compassionate Tory winning or do I vote for the one I most believe in.....
		
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Mrs Hogie just declared as she headed out the door to get her nails done (as you do) - "I'm thinking I'm going to vote Labour".  She is so fed up with politicians demonstrating no or dubious principles and values that she'd prefer to stick to her own values and Labour instinct - even though Labour have no chance and LibDems have an outside one of unseating Hunt. And she is a very big fan of Rebecca Long-Bailey.

And I'm inclined to agree.  So my choice is down to 2.

One Tactical Voting Website tells me...

_This seat was part of a Progressive Alliance campaign against the then health secretary in 2017, so it is unclear what might happen here this time. _

The other 4 tell me LibDem


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite a decent post except for the bit about the commonwealth. There are thoughts within the commonwealth countries that we kinda abandoned them once we were tied up in EU trade. Was in Barbados a couple of years ago, I remember a guy taking us round the island in a taxi saying he hopes that Britain starts buying it's sugar once we have left the EU. We drove through countless fields that once provided the UK. When we leave the EU, I for one hope trade deals with the commonwealth improve.
		
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It would be great if we could throw a bit of love the way of some Commonwealth countries.  But I suspect blaming the EU for us no longer buying sugar etc from commonwealth countries is simplistic at best.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Maybe because apart from the label, they don't recognise the Labour Party in front of them.* I have, predominantly, voted Labour but haven't this time - way too far left for me. I've voted Tory before, but too far right this time. And I've voted LibDems in the past but I'm just not connecting with them.

My vote went in the bin - "none of the above."
		
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This with knobs on.

You don't vote for a label or rosette, you vote for the people and politics behind them.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe because apart from the label, they don't recognise the Labour Party in front of them. I have, predominantly, voted Labour but haven't this time - way too far left for me. I've voted Tory before, but too far right this time. And I've voted LibDems in the past but I'm just not connecting with them.

My vote went in the bin - "none of the above."
		
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And this is the point I have been making all through this campaign. It is the floating voters that the main partys need to win over. The Hobbits, Tashys, DFT, well maybe not. But the point is. If you are Labour through and through. You could put the village idiot up as leader and people would still vote. It's the same with the Torys. This country has a chasm right down the middle of it. Quite frankly I cannot see it changing in the short term.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This with knobs on.

You don't vote for a label or rosette, you vote for the people and politics behind them.
		
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As one of the lads said at the pit reunion.

" I have not left Labour, Labour have left me".


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This with knobs on.

You don't vote for a label or rosette, you vote for the people and politics behind them.
		
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I don't know if people do .. on here there is evidence to suggest the colour of rosette has determined the person ... and that's all parties not a dig at one faction.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Ah yes - "pro-Scotland" = "anti-England" 

Tell me, why do so many in England take personal offence at Scotland wanting to be Independent? It's not like we blame *you*, we blame, the UK system that doesn't work for us, and we want to be a normal country. Why is that so offensive to you?
		
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Bit to simplified and generic for me that statement. Id say in this forum it comes down to more certain posters only state the bad things England/ being tied to UK causes and are happy to take snide digs at UK/England but then claim anyone  that replies to them is purely Pro UK is anti Scotland, when often its simply they don't agree with that posters comment.  That for me comes more down to the small minded pettiness of those posters which has been evident in this thread many times.

Imo being pro Independent Scotland isn't offensive or bad, Sotland is recognised as a country in its own right as it should be and as such should get the opportunity to govern itself as it sees fit and not be held to policy created in Westminster so id guess that even not being Scottish im pro independence.

However if that does occur the certain posters on here will then complain rUK will only do a deal that suits rUK not Scotland, which is true and rightly so because just like with Brexit why would the larger collective hold a negotiation that is more beneficial to the smaller region.  That's just how negotiating works and as a collective UK at the moment is why we're such a mess.


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## Beezerk (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i'm always staggered when i read that a lifelong labour voter would ever, ever consider voting Conservative, esp this bunch of right wing liars.

what where the reasons you ever voted Labour?
		
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Spent the majority of my teen years in a mining village right next to the pit, walked through the pickets every morning to get to school while the strike was on. Trained to hate Thatcher and everything Tory etc by family and friends.
But saying that, I'm not that closed minded and blinkered that I can't change my mind as I grow older and have different views now. So you could say I was brain washed into supporting Labour?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I don't know if people do .. on here there is evidence to suggest the colour of rosette has determined the person ... and that's all parties not a dig at one faction.
		
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I agree with you. I was speaking for myself really. Far too many people vote blindly but this election is chipping away at that more than any other past election I would say. I think Labour heartlands in particular are potentially under threat due to both their Brexit stance and Corbyn. Plenty will still vote for the rosette alone though.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I have a groundskeeper to mow my lawn, nanny to look after my kids and estates manager to do the DIY, proper champagne socialist me. 

Click to expand...

So you'll be watching Homes under the hammer then ?


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This with knobs on.

You don't vote for a label or rosette, you vote for the people and politics behind them.
		
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Im not so sure LT, there will still be many who vote only Labour or Tory because of the colour of their rosette, there will be some who simply don't see the point in voting for any other party because of the voting system being so heavily biased towards the 2 parties and the safe seat views that the first past the post system created. As a result its always back and forth between the 2 with many people still of the view of whats the point voting for anyone else or whats the point in voting at all.

Proportional representation has been put forward as an option for reform many times but always seems one of the major parties votes against that reform as they know it coukd cause shifts in power snd make things like safe seats a thing of the past and would likely get more non voters actually voting.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe because apart from the label, they don't recognise the Labour Party in front of them. I have, predominantly, voted Labour but haven't this time - way too far left for me. I've voted Tory before, but too far right this time. And I've voted LibDems in the past but I'm just not connecting with them.

My vote went in the bin - "none of the above."
		
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Brian my question was to a "lifelong labour " voter you say you have voted Tory and other parties so would class you as more a floater TBH.

I'm just curious of as to why what i would suppose that if you were lifelong labour you would have socialist leanings and would forget that to vote for the party that is now  further right than Thatchers Gov of the late 70's and 80's??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Im not so sure LT, there will still be many who vote only Labour or Tory because ifnthe colour of their rosette, there will be some who simply don't see the point in voting for any other party because of the voting system being so heavily biased towards the 2 parties and the safe seat views that the first past the post system created. As a result its always back and forth between the 2 with many people still of the view of whats the point voting for anyone else or whats the point in voting at all.

Proportional representation has been put forward as an option for reform many times but always seems one of the major parties votes against that reform as they know it coukd cause shifts in power snd make things like safe seats a thing of the past and would likely get more non voters actually voting.
		
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And there seem to be many who will vote Tory simply because of the promises that Johnson has made about Brexit - and quite understandably they want to give him the opportunity to deliver on these promises.  Wonder how much disappointment and pain they are willing to go through before realising that Brexit wasn't actually for _them_...


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont take personal offence towards Scotland wanting to be independent, I just get fed up with a couple of posters who criticise everything English all the time
		
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it funny then that you appear to have a dig and mention Jimmy Krankie and the trouble scotland would be in if it left the union every chance you get


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So you'll be watching Homes under the hammer then ?
		
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Reruns of Top Gear on Dave.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Brian my question was to a "lifelong labour " voter you say you have voted Tory and other parties so would class you as more a floater TBH.

I'm just curious of as to why what i would suppose that if you were lifelong labour you would have socialist leanings and would forget that to vote for the party that is now  further right than Thatchers Gov of the late 70's and 80's??
		
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Just look at Labour and then decide if they are fit for government.  Come on, look at them.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And there seem to be many who will vote Tory simply because of the promises that Johnson has made about Brexit - and quite understandably they want to give him the opportunity to deliver on these promises.  Wonder how much disappointment and pain they are willing to go through before realising that Brexit wasn't actually for _them_...

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Totally agree SILH, that really is the jewel in the Tory party crown for this election, Brexit was voted on and they're promising to deliver it, for many floating voters that wanted to leave that promise alone will them tick the blue box.. 

Our political system needs a complete reform, getting rid of the very idea of a safe seat and guarantee of a 2 party only government or hung parliaments by using proportional representation could truly make these people stick to promises and do all they can to improve things as the chance of them being ousted next time round is far greater.. But just my opinion of course..


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Im not so sure LT, there will still be many who vote only Labour or Tory because ifnthe colour of their rosette, there will be some who simply don't see the point in voting for any other party because of the voting system being so heavily biased towards the 2 parties and the safe seat views that the first past the post system created. As a result its always back and forth between the 2 with many people still of the view of whats the point voting for anyone else or whats the point in voting at all.

Proportional representation has been put forward as an option for reform many times but always seems one of the major parties votes against that reform as they know it coukd cause shifts in power snd make things like safe seats a thing of the past and would likely get more non voters actually voting.
		
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Not if there is a viable alternative. I'm a lifelong labour supporter, been called on here a lefty, Marxist, Politburo card carrying Commie.

But i won't be voting Labour, the party i will be has similar ideals, a fairer society, for the many not the few, of course that would mean slightly higher taxes, which i already pay in Scoland, but i don't begrudge that, i'm pretty well off and can afford it. I'm not in favour of I'm all right Jackism that appears prevalent down south


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Spent the majority of my teen years in a mining village right next to the pit, walked through the pickets every morning to get to school while the strike was on. Trained to hate Thatcher and everything Tory etc by family and friends.
But saying that, I'm not that closed minded and blinkered that I can't change my mind as I grow older and have different views now. So you could say I was brain washed into supporting Labour?
		
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so not a socialist and just voted what you thought your family and friends thought you should?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			it funny then that you appear to have a dig and mention Jimmy Krankie and the trouble scotland would be in if it left the union every chance you get
		
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Tit for tat I'd say


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Not if there is a viable alternative. I'm a lifelong labour supporter, been called on here a lefty, Marxist, Politburo card carrying Commie.

But i won't be voting Labour, the party i will be has similar ideals, a fairer society, for the many not the few, of course that would mean slightly higher taxes, which i already pay in Scoland, but i don't begrudge that, i'm pretty well off and can afford it. I'm not in favour of I'm all right Jackism that appears prevalent down south
		
Click to expand...

Your missing the point Patrick, that point being many will vote for the 2 main protagonist because they know it will always be one of them in power so don't tick the other boxes or even look deep enough into their policies.

As for you saying im alright Jack down south (by that asusme you mean England) that alone highlights my previous post and is far to simple way of looking at it. England isn't just south its not just London and the home counties. Northern England is suffering terribly under this government but still many people will only vote for one of the 2 main parties as they don't see anyone else ever getting a look in because of the political system we have.

I'll be voting tomorrow and it wont be red or blue, i don't believe either are fit for purpose with what they're offering, if the party I am voting for got in it would mean paying slightly more in tax as well which I can accept. But I know even with my vote going to that party there's no chance them getting into power because of the current political system favoring just 2 parties, so im sorry the I'm alright Jack statement doesn't wash with me because until the system is changed, we won't ever get actual change and accountability from politicians.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204691143608471553


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204691143608471553 

Click to expand...

I watched that this morning, absolutely ridiculous situation. UK politics right now is a laughing stock, both main parties doing all they can to show themselves up.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204717963993063424
And yes before someone mentions it I believe Corbyn has dodged some interview on radio 5 with the public.  But for some reason Boris does not seem keen to sit down 1-2-1 with many people who could ask tricky questions.


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## jp5 (Dec 11, 2019)

It's because Johnson doesn't like facing scrutiny. 

Perhaps some of those that vote for him will realise this over the next 5 years!


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Your missing the point Patrick, that point being many will vote for the 2 main protagonist because they know it will always be one of them in power so don't tick the other boxes or even look deep enough into their policies.

As for you saying im alright Jack down south (by that asusme you mean England) that alone highlights my previous post and is far to simple way of looking at it. England isn't just south its not just London and the home counties. Northern England is suffering terribly under this government but still many people will only vote for one of the 2 main parties as they don't see anyone else ever getting a look in because of the political system we have.

I'll be voting tomorrow and it wont be red or blue, i don't believe either are fit for purpose with what they're offering, if the party I am voting for got in it would mean paying slightly more in tax as well which I can accept. But I know even with my vote going to that party there's no chance them getting into power because of the current political system favoring just 2 parties, so im sorry the I'm alright Jack statement doesn't wash with me because until the system is changed, we won't ever get actual change and accountability from politicians.
		
Click to expand...

judging by many attitudes on here that have renforced my view on I'm all right jackism, look at the views on Tax that have been mentioned, not to mention many of the comments from people on the news etc and those i've seen out and about. plus i lived in the south east and worked in the city for many years... none of that experience makes me change my mind so we will have to agree to disagree


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2019)

Quite looking forward to the results Thursday night and Friday morning.

Then am really looking forward to the excuses why X party won.

But what am really looking forward to is people saying they now know what they didn't know the day before, and that they were lied to and they don't like the result so they want another vote. Then they can vote For the other party.


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## Beezerk (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so not a socialist and just voted what you thought your family and friends thought you should?
		
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No idea, but I guess the same as swathes of people in the North of England.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			No idea, but I guess the same as swathes of people in the North of England.
		
Click to expand...

so no idea if you were a socialist or not?


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite looking forward to the results Thursday night and Friday morning.

Then am really looking forward to the excuses why X party won.

But what am really looking forward to is people saying they now know what they didn't know the day before, and that they were lied to and they don't like the result so they want another vote. Then they can vote For the other party.
		
Click to expand...

the great unwashed will be protesting if they don't get the result they want and no doubt Gina Millar will start another court case


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			judging by many attitudes on here that have renforced my view on I'm all right jackism, look at the views on Tax that have been mentioned, not to mention many of the comments from people on the news etc and those i've seen out and about. plus i lived in the south east and worked in the city for many years... none of that experience makes me change my mind so we will have to agree to disagree

Click to expand...

I can't say more than  on this...I live in the SE (Surrey) and have done for 23yrs, and the attitude you refer to is prevalent amongst some I know and many I bump in to - not all - but many. And, sadly, it is one of the main reasons that we will move from this part of the world in the next couple of years or so.  Fortunately there is also a strong LibDem mindset that goes some way to counter what we find difficult.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Quite looking forward to the results Thursday night and Friday morning.

Then am really looking forward to the excuses why X party won.

But what am really looking forward to is people saying they now know what they didn't know the day before, and that they were lied to and they don't like the result so they want another vote. Then they can vote For the other party.
		
Click to expand...

that really is sad


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			judging by many attitudes on here that have renforced my view on I'm all right jackism, look at the views on Tax that have been mentioned, not to mention many of the comments from people on the news etc and those i've seen out and about. plus i lived in the south east and worked in the city for many years... none of that experience makes me change my mind so we will have to agree to disagree

Click to expand...

What sort of views do you  expect to see everyone agreeing like some form of Socialist utopia. 

Again you point to the south east of England and London but fail to acknowledge that England isn't just those 2 locations. It's easy to say agree to disagree when you're not taking in the full picture. 

But we can happily disagree knowing its only our opinions and neither of us is actually right..


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## Beezerk (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so no idea if you were a socialist or not?
		
Click to expand...

Nope.


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			judging by many attitudes on here that have renforced my view on I'm all right jackism, look at the views on Tax that have been mentioned, not to mention many of the comments from people on the news etc and those i've seen out and about. plus i lived in the south east and worked in the city for many years... none of that experience makes me change my mind so we will have to agree to disagree

Click to expand...

I have worked in the City for 25 years and already pay a bucket load of tax on my earnings and while I can afford to pay more I would rather keep as much of my salary as possible so I can spend it on what I want too (which is also taxed)


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## DRW (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			judging by many attitudes on here that have renforced my view on I'm all right jackism, look at the views on Tax that have been mentioned, not to mention many of the comments from people on the news etc and those i've seen out and about. plus i lived in the south east and worked in the city for many years... none of that experience makes me change my mind so we will have to agree to disagree

Click to expand...

Isn't that more just human nature ? I now live in the midlands and whilst it is a lot more friendly and lets say more like 'old britian' better social interaction etc, I see that outlook everywhere and hear it across the board(I have acted for clients across all of the UK and people coming in from the EU for work in the labour market of London and not many enjoy paying more tax than they should).

I think going from what is said to me, most do not mind paying a bit more in tax, so plucking a figure from the air, say 5%. However when I have to tell a Limited company owner earning around £35000 his dividend tax liability has increased from £0(ZERO) four years ago, and would about £3,650 under labour(plus the increase in corporation tax, which would total near £4,100, so that's an EXTRA (not total) 11.7% of his income, it is hard to swallow). And figures get worse as the earnings increase. Quickly typing it away on my calculator. but don't worry the pensioners, PAYE under £80k people wont have to pay any or much more tax/nic. Its a bit nutty and fair to one sided, the labour tax suggestions IMHO.

This could be your Peter the Plumber Ltd or Eddie the Electrician Ltd or Boris the Blockworker Ltd .



patricks148 said:



			so no idea if you were a socialist or not?
		
Click to expand...

Genuine question, do you consider the labour party socialists ? Also did you consider Blairs period whilst at Labour the same?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2019)

Dando said:



			the great unwashed will be protesting if they don't get the result they want and no doubt Gina Millar will start another court case
		
Click to expand...

There's the thing... Input from the "great unwashed" will not be required ... Once Boris fails to deliver a proper Brexit and continues in failing to stem immigration his own team will lose faith and show him the door... Probably seeing us returning to the polling stations well short of a fixed term parliament...


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## Jacko_G (Dec 11, 2019)

Just give Scotland independence and be done with it.

😁

Labour under Corbyn is finished up here, Conservatives will never be supported by the Scots. 

Win win.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2019)

Not going well for the Tories today.

On top of that Lady Doon got a cold call from them, seven minutes later after discussing lies, trust, health, Indyref and social services the Scottish Tory woman was reduced to a jibbering wreck.
My English lady finally tells her that she has a postal vote and that she voted for the SNP six days ago as did her two English daughters wo moved to Scotland 10 and 12 years ago. That is when she was cut off.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not going well for the Tories today.

On top of that Lady Doon got a cold call from them, seven minutes later after discussing lies, trust, health, Indyref and social services the Scottish Tory woman was reduced to a jibbering wreck.
My English lady finally tells her that she has a postal vote and that she voted for the SNP six days ago as did her two English daughters wo moved to Scotland 10 and 12 years ago. That is when she was cut off.

Click to expand...

I'd rather it did go well for the Tories (not a Tory by any stretch of the imagination) as I shudder to think of a Britain under Corbyn.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Genuine question, do you consider the labour party socialists ? Also did you consider Blairs period whilst at Labour the same?

now they are Blairs wasn't really


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Genuine question, do you consider the labour party socialists ? Also did you consider Blairs period whilst at Labour the same?

now they are Blairs wasn't really
		
Click to expand...

I suspect Corbyn's view is as close to socialism as Labour have had in many years. His nationalisation plans are undoubtedly socialist.

Blair realised that socialism in its purest form would not get Labour elected and to make a difference you have to be in power. His party was a socialist leaning party but not socialist in the strict sense, imo. Did he ever claim to be socialist whilst in power? I would be surprised, unless it was at a Labour conference and he was playing to the audience.


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## robinthehood (Dec 11, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/12/11/bo...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect Corbyn's view is as close to socialism as Labour have had in many years. His nationalisation plans are undoubtedly socialist.

Blair realised that socialism in its purest form would not get Labour elected and to make a difference you have to be in power. His party was a socialist leaning party but not socialist in the strict sense, imo. Did he ever claim to be socialist whilst in power? I would be surprised, unless it was at a Labour conference and he was playing to the audience.
		
Click to expand...

i think many Labour supporters saw that after years of Tory rule undoing Socialst policys, like council houses, nationalised idustries, they had no choice as they say if you can't beat them join them. many won't like it but i think we could do with a bit of socialism, esp the way Society has gone in the last few years


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## User20204 (Dec 11, 2019)

The day Labour jumped into bed with the Tories in 2014 was the end of labour in Scotland. 

They could increase their vote tenfold if they only had the balls to back independence.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Genuine question, do you consider the labour party socialists ? Also did you consider Blairs period whilst at Labour the same?

now they are Blairs wasn't really
		
Click to expand...

Please can you translate that into English?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think many Labour supporters saw that after years of Tory rule undoing Socialst policys, like council houses, nationalised idustries, they had no choice as they say if you can't beat them join them. many won't like it but i think we could do with a bit of socialism, esp the way Society has gone in the last few years
		
Click to expand...

Where has Society gone? last time I looked it was still there?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not going well for the Tories today.

On top of that Lady Doon got a cold call from them, seven minutes later after discussing lies, trust, health, Indyref and social services the Scottish Tory woman was reduced to a jibbering wreck.
My English lady finally tells her that she has a postal vote and that she voted for the SNP six days ago as did her two English daughters wo moved to Scotland 10 and 12 years ago. That is when she was cut off.

Click to expand...

Mrs Hogie (she's from Chesterfield btw) told me yesterday that she would be sooo happy were Friday morning she was to see Corbyn and Sturgeon standing outside the door of Number Ten...she knows it is very unlikely to happen...

As much as she used to find the comments my SNP-voting brother (he being successful in his career and pretty wealthy doesn't stop him supporting the SNP it seems) used to make to her about the English occasionally irritating - she now gets where he is coming from - and she gets Sturgeon


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie (she's from Chesterfield btw) *told me yesterday that she would be sooo happy were Friday morning she was to see Corbyn and Sturgeon standing outside the door of Number Ten...she* knows it is very unlikely to happen...

As much as she used to find the comments my SNP-voting brother (he being successful in his career and pretty wealthy doesn't stop him supporting the SNP it seems) used to make to her about the English occasionally irritating - she now gets where he is coming from - and she gets Sturgeon 

Click to expand...

Id be booking a one way ticket out of the UK for Friday night if that were to happen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

How depressing - and Labour have a problem...? 

A New Poll Found 37% Of Conservative Voters Admit They Have A Negative View Of Muslims
More than 60% of Conservative voters said they agreed with the statement that Islam threatened the British way of life

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/conservative-islamophobia-labour-antisemitism-poll


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie (she's from Chesterfield btw) told me yesterday that she would be sooo happy were Friday morning she was to see Corbyn and Sturgeon standing outside the door of Number Ten...she knows it is very unlikely to happen...

As much as she used to find the comments my SNP-voting brother (he being successful in his career and pretty wealthy doesn't stop him supporting the SNP it seems) used to make to her about the English occasionally irritating - she now gets where he is coming from - and she gets Sturgeon 

Click to expand...

Sturgeons not an MP so can only stay outside


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How depressing - and Labour have a problem...? 

A New Poll Found 37% Of Conservative Voters Admit They Have A Negative View Of Muslims
More than 60% of Conservative voters said they agreed with the statement that Islam threatened the British way of life

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/conservative-islamophobia-labour-antisemitism-poll

Click to expand...

Its not compulsary for people to like anything, if they did a poll on how many Labour supporters had negative views of Christianity it would probably be higher. Its only a problem if people discriminate or react in hateful or illegal ways.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect Corbyn's view is as close to socialism as Labour have had in many years. His nationalisation plans are undoubtedly socialist.

Blair realised that socialism in its purest form would not get Labour elected and to make a difference you have to be in power. His party was a socialist leaning party but not socialist in the strict sense, imo. Did he ever claim to be socialist whilst in power? I would be surprised, unless it was at a Labour conference and he was playing to the audience.
		
Click to expand...

At the time I remember the word was that Blair was more a centre ground Conservative than the Conservatives themselves


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## User20204 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Id be booking a one way ticket out of the UK for Friday night if that were to happen.
		
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No you wouldn't.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			No you wouldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Because you know me better than i know myself.... For me anything that gets Labour into no10 means a potentially financially crippling situation for my family..


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Because you know me better than i know myself.... For me anything that gets Labour into no10 means a potentially financially crippling situation for my family..
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think it will be that extreme or overnight.. they have to get to the actual situation bottomed out and then cut their cloth to suit the situation


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## DRW (Dec 11, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			No you wouldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Did you mean labour wont be in power


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Because you know me better than i know myself.... For me anything that gets Labour into no10 means a potentially financially crippling situation for EVERY family..
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Wolf couldn't resist editing for you (and everyone else)


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## User20204 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Because you know me better than i know myself.... For me anything that gets Labour into no10 means a potentially financially crippling situation for my family..
		
Click to expand...

Nope, don't know you at all but I know you wouldn't be booking a one way ticket out of the UK on Friday night if the aforementioned happened. 

Heard it all before.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I don’t think it will be that extreme or overnight.. they have to get to the actual situation bottomed out and then cut their cloth to suit the situation
		
Click to expand...

My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.


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## User62651 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Id be booking a one way ticket out of the UK for Friday night if that were to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Nice to have that option, so easy with all those 27 lovely European countries to choose from with no entry VISAs etc required...................  but your party's leader is hellbent on denying that to you and everyone else because his career depends on it.

Looks like Eire could be your only option come end Jan 2020.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Nice to have that option, so easy with all those 27 lovely European countries to choose from with no entry VISAs etc required...................  but your party's leader is hellbent on denying that to you and everyone else because his career depends on it.

Looks like Eire could be your only option come end Jan 2020.

Click to expand...

My parties leader isnt hell bent on that at all because im not a Tory supporter👍

Though with Boris in charge at least I wouldn't lose my contracts. 

Fortunately for me Eire always an option thanks to Mrs Wolf being Irish.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.
		
Click to expand...

I am gonna suggest no they wouldn't... One thing I learnt from my working days is that business likes to have a little stamp of its feet making all kinds of threats to workforce/politicians... Then, come the cold light of day, realises there's still a profit to be had...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.
		
Click to expand...

What do they hope to achieve apart from influencing your personal vote?


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I am gonna suggest no they wouldn't... One thing I learnt from my working days is that business likes to have a little stamp of its feet making all kinds of threats to workforce/politicians... Then, come the cold light of day, realises there's still a profit to be had...
		
Click to expand...

Im hoping your right and that's how it will pan out. Fortunately i've been going through process of changing careers last few months and all being well if it works out then if this situation comes to pass, I'll be on my way to a better future regardless. 



harpo_72 said:



			What do they hope to achieve apart from influencing your personal vote?
		
Click to expand...

I've asked that very question myself, but one of the companies in question is a well known magnate who likes to strip assets so it could well be in their case its an easy excuse for an out. 

I know which way my vote goes regardless and its not red or blue


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not compulsary for people to like anything, if they did a poll on how many Labour supporters had negative views of Christianity it would probably be higher. Its only a problem if people discriminate or react in hateful or illegal ways.
		
Click to expand...

Really - you seriously think that that is a valid comparison...?

I think you'll find that Christians aren't too bothered about what others think of them (I get fed up with misunderstandings - but that's not the same thing), and it is unlikely that there are many - if any - out there who think so negatively of Christianity that they would go around attacking Christians for their beliefs...

And actually I think the poll paints a pretty poor picture of Tory voters...but you seem to think it's OK.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.
		
Click to expand...

I’d be in a worrying position as well if he got in and got his way with defence. 
Probably be in some uncertainty if Scotland got independence. though I wish they’d get it And bog off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.
		
Click to expand...

Project Fear Mk3?  That Remain supporters and businesses have said almost exactly the same sort thing about what could happen if we leave the EU...but have been dismissed as not being Nostradamus.  What a hellish hole has been dug by the Tories and that we all find ourselves in.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Project Fear
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely depsise that pathetic saying in all its guises.. Such a cop out for people that can't put together a proper conversation about something. 

But tell that to my wife and kids that have that potentially hanging over their heads 2 weeks before Christmas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d be in a worrying position as well if he got in and got his way with defence.
Probably be in some uncertainty if Scotland got independence. though I wish they’d get it And bog off.
		
Click to expand...

Well - I'm sure many up there quite fancy that idea - and also quite fancy extracting a Kings Ransom from the Westminster government as the price of temporarily hosting Trident whilst a new base is found and constructed.  Unless they are stuck with the Yank's boats - in which case what's the point of having our own...


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d be in a worrying position as well if he got in and got his way with defence.
Probably be in some uncertainty if Scotland got independence. though I wish they’d get it And bog off.
		
Click to expand...

I hope that in your case like mine then it pains out favourably for you and your family. 

Its to easy for people to jump on band wagons telling us its project fear but they aren't the ones in these situations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I absolutely depsise that pathetic saying in all its guises.. Such a cop out for people that can't put together a proper conversation about something.

But tell that to my wife and kids that have that potentially hanging over their heads 2 weeks before Christmas.
		
Click to expand...

Well indeed it is - absolutely pathetic, but that is what Remain supporters have been subjected to for more than three years - and most likely why the likes of Bridgen, Fysh and Francois are nowhere to be seen.

BTW - my comment wasn't actually directed at your situation in a personal capacity - and I do hope that the fearmongering of the suppliers is just that and no more.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Id be booking a one way ticket out of the UK for Friday night if that were to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Aye Right,
Remember Cameron saying to Scotland 'Don't leave us, lead us' He just might get his wish.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Project Fear Mk3?  That Remain supporters and businesses have said almost exactly the same sort thing about what could happen if we leave the EU...but have been dismissed as not being Nostradamus.  What a hellish hole has been dug by the Tories and that we all find ourselves in.
		
Click to expand...

 you've gone back and edited your entire post from my previous reply you posted that, which now makes my reply look more out of context in the thread.. But is infact a direct quote of what you initially posted that contextually looked liked a dig..



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well indeed it is - absolutely pathetic but that is what Remain supporters have been subjected to for more than three years - and most likely why the likes of Bridgen, Fysh and Francois are nowhere to be seen.

BTW - my comment wasn't actually directed at your situation in a personal capacity - and I do hope that the fearmongering of the suppliers is just that and no more.
		
Click to expand...

Now you've gone onto justify it along with your complete rewrite of your initial post now makes it look like you agree with me.. Sometimes SILH you don't help yourself 😂

For the record i never wanted leave either and cant stand the fear mongering we were accused of about that either.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Gove on Johnson's 'reporter's phone in pocket' moment...

"My understanding is that the Prime Minister did look at the picture, he was clearly concerned about what he saw, he dispatched the Health Secretary, my friend Matt Hancock, to Leeds in order to see what happened. A single moment of absent-mindedness after he'd looked at the picture"

That's not how the world outside of Gove and CCHQ saw it...but then Gove does live in a parallel universe where there are alternative facts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			you've gone back and edited your entire post from my previous reply you posted that, which now makes my reply look more out of context in the thread.. But is infact a direct quote of what you initially posted that contextually looked liked a dig..



Now you've gone onto justify it along with your complete rewrite of your initial post now makes it look like you agree with me.. Sometimes SILH you don't help yourself 😂

For the record i never wanted leave either and cant stand the fear mongering we were accused of about that either.
		
Click to expand...

Haven't rewritten it - just tweaked it immediately as I hadn't finished it.  

[EDIT] I did not mean any dig at you personally.  I detest Project Fear


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Haven't rewritten it - just tweaked it immediately as I hadn't finished it.
		
Click to expand...

Then why post it... All you've done is make it look out of context. 

Might i suggest next time you post actually finish it properly instead of posting only part which in this case has made things look silly.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			My problem is that it will be effectively an overnight situation for my family. At the moment im in a fortunate position that i provide my services through contract to 3 large leisure chains, 2 of those chains have already advised me that if Labour are in No10 by Friday morning they will issue 4 weeks notice of termination of contracts.
		
Click to expand...

why would they sack you just because labour got into power?

 unless you are really Dom Cummings of course?


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why would they sack you just because labour got into power?

unless you are really Dom Cummings of course?
		
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As ive stated several times before in this thread because of rises in costs labour would cause them elsewhere, removal of my contracted services saves them money.

They wouldn't be sacking me they'd be stream lining the services they outsource and under a labour manifesto they will need to remove some costs, i would not be the only contractual service provider they remove. Difference is though the others are financially stable enough to not worry about that change..


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Haven't rewritten it - just tweaked it immediately as I hadn't finished it. 

[EDIT] I did not mean any dig at you personally.  I detest Project Fear
		
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If you hadn't finished it why did you post it up?

Who's being circumspect with the truth now?


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Then why post it... All you've done is make it look out of context. 

Might i suggest next time you post actually finish it properly instead of posting only part which in this case has made things look silly.
		
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Imagine the uproar if Boris had done something like that!


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## User20204 (Dec 11, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Probably be in some uncertainty if Scotland got independence. though I wish they’d get it And bog off.
		
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I've never fully understood why the main Westminster parties are desperate for Scotland to remain part of the UK, it's fair enough if those who live in Scotland wish to via a indyref as before but what's the big deal for them in Westminster, it's not like the main politcal parties have huge numbers of MPs


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really - you seriously think that that is a valid comparison...?

I think you'll find that Christians aren't too bothered about what others think of them (I get fed up with misunderstandings - but that's not the same thing), and it is unlikely that there are many - if any - out there who think so negatively of Christianity that they would go around attacking Christians for their beliefs...

And actually I think the poll paints a pretty poor picture of Tory voters...but you seem to think it's OK.
		
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Yes I do!
You are exaggerating what I said, where did I say anything about "they would go around attacking Christians" The article is about people having negative views and I believe (whether you like it or not) many people have negative views of Christians just like many people have negative views of muslims.  You may not like it but that doesnt mean its not a reality.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



View attachment 28731
View attachment 28731


If this was a genuine photo I wonder which medic decided that the drip feeds upwards?
		
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It was a genuine photo, taken by the family and sent to the Mirror, however obviously the family don't want the photo used for political gain, yer right.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			As ive stated several times before in this thread because of rises in costs labour would cause them elsewhere, removal of my contracted services saves them money.

They wouldn't be sacking me they'd be stream lining the services they outsource and under a labour manifesto they will need to remove some costs, i would not be the only contractual service provider they remove. Difference is though the others are financially stable enough to not worry about that change..
		
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mate that is Sheere hite, i'm not sure they would be allowed to do that unless its in your contract. any changes Labour would make would take months anyway, though i suppose that little comfort... its not one of Mike Ashley companys is it?


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

Dando said:



			Imagine the uproar if Boris had done something like that!
		
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Just imagine  indeed if a politician said something then back tracked 🤔 the outroar the same people that do exactly on here would wet their pants


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2019)

chrisd said:



View attachment 28731
View attachment 28731


If this was a genuine photo I wonder which medic decided that the drip feeds upwards?
		
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Its not a drip Chris, its a bag immediately below an oxygen mask, known as a Hudson mask. Its for spontaneously breathing patients who need breathing support.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its not a drip Chris, its a bag immediately below an oxygen mask, known as a Hudson mask. Its for spontaneously breathing patients who need breathing support.
		
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I've deleted the post in case you are correct Brian


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## User20204 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			As ive stated several times before in this thread because of rises in costs labour would cause them elsewhere, removal of my contracted services saves them money.

They wouldn't be sacking me they'd be stream lining the services they outsource and under a labour manifesto they will need to remove some costs, i would not be the only contractual service provider they remove. Difference is though the others are financially stable enough to not worry about that change..
		
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I recall talking to a university scientist prior to the indyref in 2014, he said he'd vote No because if we (Scotland) left the UK he'd lose his job, fair enough, guess what happened 6 months after the indyref of 2014 ?


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			mate that is Sheere hite, i'm not sure they would be allowed to do that unless its in your contract. any changes Labour would make would take months anyway, though i suppose that little comfort... its not one of Mike Ashley companys is it?
		
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It really is a shite position to be in. There are clauses that allow for cancellation of contracts with 4 weeks notice depending on certain circumstances for both parties (them & me). The answer to your question yes his is one of the companies indeed.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Just imagine  indeed if a politician said something then back tracked 🤔 the outroar the same people that do exactly on here would wet their pants
		
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Huge difference methinks... Politicians are seeking to run our country... Whilst we (forumers) are, as per ChrisD, seeking for a bit of fun... Whilst putting the world to rights...


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Huge difference methinks... Politicians are seeking to run our country... Whilst we (forumers) are, as per ChrisD, seeking for a bit of fun... Whilst putting the world to rights...
		
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And on this thread... achieving neither....


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			As ive stated several times before in this thread because of rises in costs labour would cause them elsewhere, removal of my contracted services saves them money.

They wouldn't be sacking me they'd be stream lining the services they outsource and under a labour manifesto they will need to remove some costs, i would not be the only contractual service provider they remove. Difference is though the others are financially stable enough to not worry about that change..
		
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Where does this all pan out with IR35? 
My friend has/or the organisation is planning to use IR35  to make people leave their contracts.


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## Wolf (Dec 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Where does this all pan out with IR35?
My friend has/or the organisation is planning to use IR35  to make people leave their contracts.
		
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This is something im getting confirmed at the moment as there is no mutuality of obligation under IR35 guidelines.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Spent the majority of my teen years in a mining village right next to the pit, walked through the pickets every morning to get to school while the strike was on. Trained to hate Thatcher and everything Tory etc by family and friends.
But saying that, I'm not that closed minded and blinkered that I can't change my mind as I grow older and have different views now. So you could say I was brain washed into supporting Labour?
		
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One of the great mysteries of this era of politics is how Tory policies from the 80's decimated industries and communities in the North and Midlands with no plans to reinvigorate them and then by some slight of hand have convinced them it's the EU's fault and if they vote Tory they'll sort it out.
They've never given a toss about those regions and never will.


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## drdel (Dec 11, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			One of the great mysteries of this era of politics is how Tory policies from the 80's decimated industries and communities in the North and Midlands with no plans to reinvigorate them and then by some slight of hand have convinced them it's the EU's fault and if they vote Tory they'll sort it out.
They've never given a toss about those regions and never will.
		
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You don't think that cheap steel imports, high manufacturing costs because of companies not modernising/automating/high wage costs and the falling use of coal etc. had anything to do with the fact that goods were cheaper (Often better) from overseas. these were long term trends (Germany had modern factories (built using post-war UK cash)). You might also know that the EU has strict rules about Governments subsidising corporations (unless you're France etc who ignore these things). There was more than a one Party governing the UK through these decades.


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			You don't think that cheap steel imports, high manufacturing costs because of companies not modernising/automating/high wage costs and the falling use of coal etc. had anything to do with the fact that goods were cheaper (Often better) from overseas. these were long term trends (Germany had modern factories (built using post-war UK cash)). You might also know that the EU has strict rules about Governments subsidising corporations (unless you're France etc who ignore these things). There was more than a one Party governing the UK through these decades.
		
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Of course not, it was the tories fault!


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			You don't think that cheap steel imports, high manufacturing costs because of companies not modernising/automating/high wage costs and the falling use of coal etc. had anything to do with the fact that goods were cheaper (Often better) from overseas. these were long term trends (Germany had modern factories (built using post-war UK cash)). You might also know that the EU has strict rules about Governments subsidising corporations (unless you're France etc who ignore these things). There was more than a one Party governing the UK through these decades.
		
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Other more progressive modern economies have managed to bridge these changes by investing in education, infrastructure etc. We have one of the greatest university and research systems in the world but the vast majority of their output ends up making overseas companies money because we don't have an industry to feed into. That's ok.for investment bankers, they just move their money around the world but it does nothing for poorer areas. 
The Germans, French, Swedish, Japenese all have car industries. I worked in Pharma for many years, it's now decimated in the UK but not in other European countries.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2019)

Dando said:



			Of course not, it was the tories fault!
		
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Well, makes a change from it always being Labour's fault...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Other more progressive modern economies have managed to bridge these changes by investing in education, infrastructure etc. We have one of the greatest university and research systems in the world but the vast majority of their output ends up making overseas companies money because we don't have an industry to feed into. That's ok.for investment bankers, they just move their money around the world but it does nothing for poorer areas. 
The Germans, French, Swedish, Japenese all have car industries. I worked in Pharma for many years, it's now decimated in the UK but not in other European countries.
		
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I know you wont like this but you put all the blame on the horrible Torys but if its that simple why didnt Labour reverse the situation when in government.  Maybe its not as simple as expecting the taxpayer to fix it.


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## Mudball (Dec 11, 2019)

Quick question..  We now have about 4000 posts on this thread and lots of grandstanding, mudslinging, fakenewsing, shouting at each other.

with less than 12 hours to go to polls, HAS ANYONE CHANGED THEIR MIND ON HOW THEY VOTE BASED ON THIS THIS THREAD..


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## spongebob59 (Dec 11, 2019)

No.
I could never vote for the current leader of the oppostion.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I know you wont like this but you put all the blame on the horrible Torys but if its that simple why didnt Labour reverse the situation when in government.  Maybe its not as simple as expecting the taxpayer to fix it.
		
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Might be because to do so taxes will rise and every one will have a hissy fit ...


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Quick question..  We now have about 4000 posts on this thread and lots of grandstanding, mudslinging, fakenewsing, shouting at each other.

with less than 12 hours to go to polls, HAS ANYONE CHANGED THEIR MIND ON HOW THEY VOTE BASED ON THIS THIS THREAD..
		
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 Me ...........

I'm thinking of voting before going to work instead of on the way home


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## pauljames87 (Dec 11, 2019)

Q



Mudball said:



			Quick question..  We now have about 4000 posts on this thread and lots of grandstanding, mudslinging, fakenewsing, shouting at each other.

with less than 12 hours to go to polls, HAS ANYONE CHANGED THEIR MIND ON HOW THEY VOTE BASED ON THIS THIS THREAD..
		
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Going to put my neck on the line and say nobody has changed their mind due to something they have read on a golf forum 

Most people vote for the same and if their floaters it's just what speaks to them that time around


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## drdel (Dec 11, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Other more progressive modern economies have managed to bridge these changes by investing in education, infrastructure etc. We have one of the greatest university and research systems in the world but the vast majority of their output ends up making overseas companies money because we don't have an industry to feed into. That's ok.for investment bankers, they just move their money around the world but it does nothing for poorer areas.
The Germans, French, Swedish, Japenese all have car industries. I worked in Pharma for many years, it's now decimated in the UK but not in other European countries.
		
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I won't drag this discussion out too much. Just to briefly say IMO you should look further back to when these trends started, such as at the average age of factories in the UK and the outdated equipment, poor labour relations, high energy costs (because the UK implemented Environmental controls when others in Europe ignored them). Unfortunately the NE was the UK's centre of these traditional businesses so were more exposed to the changes (there are huge parts of the USA, Detroit, Chicago that were also caught out, by cheap steel imports etc).

The nations you mention had newer infrastructure so more efficient production (including chemical/medical). I'm, of course, perfectly happy for you to take a different stance.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			I won't drag this discussion out too much. Just to briefly say IMO you should look further back to when these trends started, such as at the average age of factories in the UK and the outdated equipment, poor labour relations, high energy costs (because the UK implemented Environmental controls when others in Europe ignored them). Unfortunately the NE was the UK's centre of these traditional businesses so were more exposed to the changes (there are huge parts of the USA, Detroit, Chicago that were also caught out, by cheap steel imports etc).

The nations you mention had newer infrastructure so more efficient production (including chemical/medical). I'm, of course, perfectly happy for you to take a different stance.
		
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I agree that the circumstances are complex and multiple but successive governments have failed to address them in any meaningful way.
An example would be the hullabaloo about more air capacity for London. Any government with an eye on other areas of the country would have explored the feasibility of an airport with high speed rail links to London but also others area of the UK. They don't because they believe in trickle down economics which has blatantly failed these regions.


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## Beezerk (Dec 11, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			One of the great mysteries of this era of politics is how Tory policies from the 80's decimated industries and communities in the North and Midlands with no plans to reinvigorate them and then by some slight of hand have convinced them it's the EU's fault and if they vote Tory they'll sort it out.
They've never given a toss about those regions and never will.
		
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I guess there's also arguments that 90s Labour never really gave a toss about the North either. It's been going downhill more and more ever since I was a kid no matter who was in government.


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			As one of the lads said at the pit reunion.

" I have not left Labour, Labour have left me".
		
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what rubbish, they can't have been much of a labour supporter or even a socialist if they think that... this is prob the first socialst manifesto in 40 years if they think its not labour then they were never a labour supporter


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## patricks148 (Dec 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I guess there's also arguments that 90s Labour never really gave a toss about the North either. It's been going downhill more and more ever since I was a kid no matter who was in government.
		
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Labour didn;t get back in till 97 so most of the 90 was tory, but surly as a long term labour supporter it was up to you to highlight that and get involved in changing things?


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## Beezerk (Dec 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Labour didn;t get back in till 97 so most of the 90 was tory, but surly as a long term labour supporter it was up to you to highlight that and get involved in changing things?
		
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You know what I meant.
Maybe it just seems like the 90s since they've been in power 🤣


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 11, 2019)

As the thread is deteriorating again and the parties are not allowed to canvass tomorrow, im locking this thread

Dont forget to vote


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