# Notification of a handicap change and singles match disqualification



## andyf (Apr 29, 2014)

Hi, last weekend I was disqualified by the captain and pro from a singles match as I played with the wrong handicap. I'm fairly new to this but I played a medal on Saturday morning and scored 90 off of a 19 handicap on a course with par 71. I then played on Sunday at 8am my singles match. Before I went out I checked the handicap noticeboard for any handicap changes but the results of the previous day were not up. I therefore played with my 19 handicap from prior to the medal. When I returned from the singles match, having won by 2 holes, I was told that I had been cut from the previous medal competition as the CSS was 73. Do I have any grounds for challenging the captain and pros decision?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 29, 2014)

Well I think you have been wrongly DQ'ed

But you need to check with the handicap change was applied - if it was done whilst you were playing your match then I'm not sure how you are supposed to know you have been cut 


You appeared to have done the right thing and checked the results and played of the handicap that was displayed before you went out

Would certainly contest the DQ


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

If the results weren't available, you don't know the CSS, so use the SSS.

If that gives you a cut, then DQ valid, otherwise appeal it! If Club don't accept that, appeal to Local Authority - who will tell Club what to do if necessary. Be diplomatic though!

No difference if results are published while you are playing or 2 days later.


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## fundy (Apr 29, 2014)

Not actually enough information for us to comment properly. You need to self cut yourself against the SSS. If the SSS wouldve seen you cut to 18 then technically they are correct but even if that is the case DQ'ing you from a matchplay comp seems a bit harsh imo.


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2014)

You are obliged to cut your handicap yourself where it is obvious that a competition result would lead to a cut, but a nett par round might not lead to a cut unless, as happened, the CSS was higher than par. You can't know overnight what the CSS for the comp is and therefore you can't, in this case cut yourself. No individual could possibly know what the CSS is until it's calculated but I do believe that the score should be measured against the SSS for the course if it's different than par

I personally believe that you do have grounds to challenge the DQ for that reason.


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			Not actually enough information for us to comment properly. You need to self cut yourself against the SSS. If the SSS wouldve seen you cut to 18 then technically they are correct but even if that is the case DQ'ing you from a matchplay comp seems a bit harsh imo.
		
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Nothing Technical/Harsh about it! Those are the Rule. But if measuring against the SSS doesn't get a cut and Comp results weren't available, then no DQ - and that's the Rule also!

Worth knowing what the original Handicap, SSS, and Stableford Points (Handicap is Stableford) were. Par is also reqd, but that's known to be 71.


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## fundy (Apr 29, 2014)

Foxholer said:



*Nothing Technical/Harsh about it!* Those are the Rule. But if measuring against the SSS doesn't get a cut and Comp results weren't available, then no DQ - and that's the Rule also!

Worth knowing what the original Handicap, SSS, and Stableford Points (Handicap is Stableford) were. Par is also reqd, but that's known to be 71.
		
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Thats a matter of opinion. Would be uproar at our place if someone was DQ'ed on this basis, I expect less than 10% of the members would know to cut themselves!


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## BTatHome (Apr 29, 2014)

If the player had scored 2 dreadful holes with say 10's would it more clear cut?

The reason I ask is that it seems an awful system to assume that all players understand the Stableford adjustment for handicap cuts and apply them too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			Thats a matter of opinion. Would be uproar at our place if someone was DQ'ed on this basis, I expect less than 10% of the members would know to cut themselves!
		
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Would certainly be an uproar at our place also 

Being the person who sorts out the K/O I wouldn't DQ him


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			Thats a matter of opinion. Would be uproar at our place if someone was DQ'ed on this basis, I expect less than 10% of the members would know to cut themselves!
		
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Without being condescending, that's their problem - and perhaps something you should suggest that the Club make known in an email or notice. Part of the fundamental 'philosophy' of Golf is the concept of a player being responsible for their own actions (or inaction) and this is the classic 'ignorance is no excuse' - possibly due to the influence of the number of Legal and Military personalities that part of the formation of The Rules several centuries ago.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Would certainly be an uproar at our place also 

Being the person who sorts out the K/O I wouldn't DQ him
		
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But if it turns out that he was due a cut, then you would have to. And how could you not without being unfair to the opposition! You may as well chuck the entire Rule Book away! (6-2a btw)

You would have to express regret, but you couldn't do anything else!


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## fundy (Apr 29, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Without being condescending, that's their problem - and perhaps something you should suggest that the Club make known in an email or notice. Part of the fundamental 'philosophy' of Golf is the concept of a player being responsible for their own actions (or inaction) and this is the classic 'ignorance is no excuse' - possibly due to the influence of the number of Legal and Military personalities that part of the formation of The Rules several centuries ago.
		
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That or maybe you should appreciate that a lot of clubs these days don't take things too seriously and dont follow the minutae of every rule and are happy with it that way


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## sawtooth (Apr 29, 2014)

If you were close to the mark then ultimately the onus is on you to check with the handicap committee before you play next. Perhaps sloppy/lazy work by the handicap secretary but I think you are probably more culpable for not making sure.

Similarly if you had played an AWAY match there is a good chance that you would not see an update to handicap for a day or two but you cannot blame the system for that. You should make every effort to find out from the competition organiser or play off a lower handicap temporarily until the situation is clear.

Sounds harsh I know but that's the way I see it, not necessarily correct though.


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			That or maybe you should appreciate that a lot of clubs these days don't take things too seriously and dont follow the minutae of every rule and are happy with it that way
		
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In that case, they should disaffiliate from EGU/Congu, because they are not following the procedures they agreed to follow!

It's part of the Rules of Golf for heaven's sake. Are they going to pick and choose which other ones they ignore?

As posted earlier, there is a standard method to cover the situation and all players should be made aware of it. In fact I actually posted a notice to that effect when asked by a couple of players who were heading off to the Bournemouth Week immediately after a competition.


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## upsidedown (Apr 29, 2014)

This case illustrates for me a benefit of the NZ handicap system where your handicap changes every fortnight and is online .For those that aren't online they are published at your home club on the morning of change  .
If you've played at an away club they will update the system for you too


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## fundy (Apr 29, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			In that case, they should disaffiliate from EGU/Congu, because they are not following the procedures they agreed to follow!

It's part of the Rules of Golf for heaven's sake. Are they going to pick and choose which other ones they ignore?
		
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You want them disaffiliated for a player not being DQ'ed for not updating his hcap by 1 shot????? 

This is my last comment as we are never going to agree but some golfers and clubs do not apply the letter of the law for every rule in every circumstance. A lot of us are quite comfortable with that, you and plenty of others on here aren't - thats the way it is


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## sawtooth (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			You want them disaffiliated for a player not being DQ'ed for not updating his hcap by 1 shot????? 

This is my last comment as we are never going to agree but some golfers and clubs do not apply the letter of the law for every rule in every circumstance. A lot of us are quite comfortable with that, you and plenty of others on here aren't - thats the way it is
		
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But if left to interpretation the system is open to abuse. Not implying in anyway that the OP tried to cheat but there will be cases where a player deliberately plays off the same handicap when he/she knows that a cut has occurred but is not yet public knowledge.

How can someone distinguish between the cheat and the innocent mistake? You cant so you have to be fair, firm and consistent.


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

fundy said:



			You want them disaffiliated for a player not being DQ'ed for not updating his hcap by 1 shot????? 

This is my last comment as we are never going to agree but some golfers and clubs do not apply the letter of the law for every rule in every circumstance. A lot of us are quite comfortable with that, you and plenty of others on here aren't - thats the way it is
		
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Don't be daft and manufacture a ridiculous inference! That sort of 'logic' belongs in the Football threads! 

But signing up and agreeing to apply the Rules and then deciding that they needn't bother doing so would certainly be grounds for questioning whether they really want to belong to the organisation. As I posted earlier, what other Rules have they decided to not bother with?!


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2014)

sawtooth said:



			But if left to interpretation the system is open to abuse. Not implying in anyway that the OP tried to cheat but there will be cases where a player deliberately plays off the same handicap when he/she knows that a cut has occurred but is not yet public knowledge.

How can someone distinguish between the cheat and the innocent mistake? You cant so you have to be fair, firm and consistent.
		
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It's not left open to interpret the system. If you do well in a competition that the result isn't going to be posted until after (or during) the next one you play, you are obliged to calculate any downward change to your handicap in a laid down way, there is no allowance made for cheats that is the rule!


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## williamalex1 (Apr 29, 2014)

Did your h/c reduction effect the result of the match , i.e. did you win or half that SI hole because of your extra stroke .
 It's up to you to adjust your h/c downwards only .Live and learn .
 I lost out at an away comp, beat on a count back because our system had not updated my h/c upwards.


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## Foxholer (Apr 29, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Did your h/c reduction effect the result of the match , i.e. did you win or half that SI hole because of your extra stroke .
 It's up to you to adjust your h/c downwards only .Live and learn .
 I lost out at an away comp, beat on a count back because our system had not updated my h/c upwards.
		
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Wouldn't have effected it; might have affected it though! (irresistible!) But that's actually irrelevant to whether there was a breach or not. And with upward adjustments, as you say, you have to wait until it's published - no anticipation allowed.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 30, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Wouldn't have effected it; might have affected it though! (irresistible!) But that's actually irrelevant to whether there was a breach or not. And with upward adjustments, as you say, you have to wait until it's published - no anticipation allowed.
		
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Didn't say it was, I thought I asked if  the h/c change  would have altered effected affected change or made the result different. :ears:


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## Imurg (Apr 30, 2014)

We still need more info
OP shot net par 71
CSS went up to 73
But if SSS is 70 or 71 then there couldn't be a cut until the results are published
So the DQ would be unjustified


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## pbrown7582 (Apr 30, 2014)

hello andy and welcome. Enjoy 

as already stated without knowing the SSS for your course an answer cannot be certain on any grounds for appeal. 
With rules stating any downward adjustment is the players own responsibility against SSS immediate upon completion of a competition you may have fallen foul to the rules.

further on down the thread IMO As regards not knowing the rules ignorance is not a valid excuse and as fiddly as some are we all have to stick to them and not pick and chose which ones we wish to ignore as harsh as it maybe at the time rules is rules.


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## duncan mackie (Apr 30, 2014)

on the assumption that you had put you name through on the sheet as the winner of the round (accepted as the formal announcement of the result for such knockouts) then we have 2+ pages of incorrect information in this thread so far - possibly a record!

can I suggest that people read rule 6-2a/5

6-2a/5
Wrong Handicap Used in Match by Mistake; Error Discovered After Result Officially Announced

Q.In a handicap match between A and B, A stated by mistake before the match began that his handicap was ten strokes, whereas in fact his handicap was nine strokes. The match was played on the basis that A's handicap was ten strokes. A won the match. The error was discovered after the result had been officially announced. What is the ruling?

A.The match stands as played. No claim by B could be considered unless A had known he was giving wrong information about his handicap

doesn't matter whether it affected the result, basically if you use the wrong handicap in error in such a situation the result stands.

EDIT  in fairness to some of the earlier responses there are really 2 questions here - 
1. did you play of a wrong handicap - this will depend on the SSS and other elements already mentioned. CSS and eventual result are not relevant as presented.
2. should you be DQ'd - when was the question of your handicap raised in relation to posting the result on the sheet?


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