# Knock down shot



## socky (May 11, 2012)

Okay, I'm after some advice.... 

From 40 - 60 yards in to the green, I'm hitting a 60deg wedge in high and trying to land it soft to stop it running on too far. 

It's been suggested that it would be better to hit a half shot PW in low and use spin to control the run. I'm not 100% sure on how to setup for that. At the range I end up hitting the ball in to a field, so can't really tell if I am checking the run with spin. 

Any tips?


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## GreiginFife (May 11, 2012)

In that area I tend to use my 56* with the face open slightly and the ball back in my stance. I would give it about 50% power, this usually results in a high ball flight but with a large amount of spin to aid stopping. 
Not sure I would attempt my PW (47*) from that distance a half PW would be too much.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2012)

socky said:



			Okay, I'm after some advice.... 

From 40 - 60 yards in to the green, I'm hitting a 60deg wedge in high and trying to land it soft to stop it running on too far. 

It's been suggested that it would be better to hit a half shot PW in low and use spin to control the run. I'm not 100% sure on how to setup for that. At the range I end up hitting the ball in to a field, so can't really tell if I am checking the run with spin. 

Any tips?
		
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If you normally play it with a LW you will find this shot much easier.

Set up

ball positioned in the centre of your stance or an inch back
heals 3-4 inches apart
weight on your front foot 80-20
hands in front of the ball
hold the club near the bottom of the grip
Swing

Mostly an arm swing with little leg movement
swing back so your left arm is parallel to the ground (right hander)
swing down with a firm punch and finish up in a mirror position of the backswing with RIGHT arm parallel to the ground
make sure you take some sort of divot with this shot.
The legs are fairly quiet through the shot and just react to the swing going through
[video=youtube;rbNPX5ZT9FY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbNPX5ZT9FY&amp;list=UUFeb2vdftHQESr49G8ZorhQ&amp;  index=3&amp;feature=plcp[/video]

The shot needs a little practice but I find my PW with this swing goes approx 50 yds
HTH


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## chrisd (May 11, 2012)

I'm getting a little brassed off Bob - I paid my assistant pro to teach me that shot a couple of weeks ago and then you come up with a video!!!!


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## Scottjd1 (May 11, 2012)

I always make sure the weight stays on the front foot and that my hands stay in front of the club head, if i achieve this then i get the desired result.

Great shot to have as you can then use it with 7/8 irons on short par 3's when the wind is up.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I'm getting a little brassed off Bob - I paid my assistant pro to teach me that shot a couple of weeks ago and then you come up with a video!!!!
		
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Dont worry, I'm charging Socky Â£20 for it


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## Val (May 11, 2012)

I've started playing a bump and run from 50 yards in where I can, I find less can go wrong.


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## socky (May 11, 2012)

Money is in the post Bob!

Should that create enough spin so the ball bites and stop after the first bounce or two?


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## chrisd (May 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Dont worry, I'm charging Socky Â£20 for it 

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Funny, thats what I paid the assistant pro

He did spend an hour with me working on the course though and we did zip about in a buggy !


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## bobmac (May 11, 2012)

socky said:



			Money is in the post Bob!

Should that create enough spin so the ball bites and stop after the first bounce or two?
		
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Well, it wont stop on a 6d but it should stop quite quickly. Of course, that depends on your greens and if you're using top flights


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## RGDave (May 11, 2012)

I play Bob's shot for 50 yards. It's a beauty.

Trouble is, I can't get 60 out of it. If I give it more, I end up hitting basically a full swing with adjusted set-up which goes about 85 yards or thinned 130. 

I can do the 40, that's easy - just kick it.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2012)

Trouble is, I can't get 60 out of it.
		
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Have you tried the same swing/shot/set-up with a 9 iron?


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## duncan mackie (May 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Have you tried the same swing/shot/set-up with a 9 iron?
		
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:clap:


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## Farneyman (May 11, 2012)

Cant wait to try this with my wedges and 9 iron and see what distances I can get with that shot.

Nice and simple. My new secondhand caddie lite will come in handy for some acurate numbers to take to the course.

Edit... Bob roughly what o'clock should the shaft go in the backswing?


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## RGDave (May 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Have you tried the same swing/shot/set-up with a 9 iron?
		
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Not recently, I'll give it a go though......

I've been hitting 60 yds with a high 3/4 SW of late but I must admit it's not exactly controlled and tends to come down with snow on it... I think the wetness of the greens has dampened my enthusiasm for anything with run. (no pun there...)


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## JustOne (May 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If you normally play it with a LW you will find this shot much easier.

Set up

ball positioned in the centre of your stance or an inch back
heals 3-4 inches apart
weight on your front foot 80-20
hands in front of the ball
hold the club near the bottom of the grip
Swing

Mostly an arm swing with little leg movement
swing back so your left arm is parallel to the ground (right hander)
swing down with a firm punch and finish up in a mirror position of the backswing with RIGHT arm parallel to the ground
make sure you take some sort of divot with this shot.
The legs are fairly quiet through the shot and just react to the swing going through


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Crikey Bob!!!!!..... one heck of a list!

All a bit technical for me 

Grip down the club to the metal on your LW and swing FAST. The only way to check the ball with spin is to swing fast. By lowering your grip to the metal you can swing faster without the ball going miles.

Simples


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## G1BB0 (May 11, 2012)

that doesnt work James


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## RGDave (May 11, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Grip down the club to the metal on your LW and swing *FAST*. 
Simples 

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Oh, that's where I've been going wrong. (obviously)

I only have 2 gears, tortoise and tortoise on Temazepam.

Note to self - "must swing faster".....


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## Farneyman (May 11, 2012)

Another quick question. Should I change the swing length or move my hands up the grip to get other distances? 
Theorectically (sp) playing Bobs type shot will only give you one distance with each club. What's the best way to get more. I understand the clock face drill to get 3 distances with each club but it that better than the same length swing with 3 different grip positions?

And for the clock face drill do you keep the same stance?


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## JustOne (May 12, 2012)

Here you go..... you choppers!!!!

[video=youtube;rcg806Yf-GQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcg806Yf-GQ[/video]




@Farneyman.... the more you go up the shaft the less spin you will get as the clubhead won't be travelling so fast, on a longer shot it's best to go with your gap wedge and grip down until it makes sense to hit a harder shot with the 'correct' club.


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## spawn_ukuk (May 12, 2012)

Its easyyyyy, take a PW or 9, 8  have the ball closer to you back foot, nice nice solid strike


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## Region3 (May 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Here you go..... you choppers!!!!

[video=youtube;rcg806Yf-GQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcg806Yf-GQ[/video]




@Farneyman.... the more you go up the shaft the less spin you will get as the clubhead won't be travelling so fast, on a longer shot it's best to go with your gap wedge and grip down until it makes sense to hit a harder shot with the 'correct' club.
		
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Thinking about it logically rather than from a golf perspective, that doesn't make sense to me.

How far the ball travels - all other things being equal - depends on how fast the club head is travelling when it makes contact. Gripping down near the metal just allows you to swing your arms slightly faster to generate the same clubhead speed. If the club head is travelling faster the ball will go further.
The ball doesn't know where you're gripping the club, only how much force it is hit with.


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## JustOne (May 12, 2012)

Region3 said:



			Thinking about it logically rather than from a golf perspective, that doesn't make sense to me.

How far the ball travels - all other things being equal - depends on how fast the club head is travelling when it makes contact. Gripping down near the metal just allows you to swing your arms slightly faster to generate the same clubhead speed. If the club head is travelling faster the ball will go further.
The ball doesn't know where you're gripping the club, only how much force it is hit with.
		
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I'm not a mathematician but I don't think I can hit a LW as far when I'm gripping down to the metal as I can when I'm at the top of the grip, it's also not as easy to take a full swing from the metal so I'd actually assume the speed (in reality) is SLOWER... but..... faster than when you just try to hit a LW slooooowlyyyyy.

I'd assume it was something along the lines of.....

1. Full shot LW = 100yd shot, full grip, 100mph
2. Half shot LW = 50yd shot, full grip, 50mph
3. Gripped down = 50yd shot, low grip, 75mph, it can't be 50mph as you gripped down and 50mph only goes 50yds with a FULL grip (see 2.) It can't be 100mph because the arc and swing are too short.

...so the gripped down shot has more spin than the soft shot but not as much as the full shot hit at 100mph.

I'd imagine this to be the case on the basis that I can* spin a full LW back up to 10ft but rarely get more than 1ft with the punched shot, if any, it just hops 'n' stops. Do you see the pros getting 10ft of munch on a 50yd chip?

(* once in a blue moon)

When I said to Farneyman that the clubhead 'won't be travelling as fast' it's on the basis that you swing slower the higher up the grip you go else you know you'll be flying the green with your normal swing, eg: you won't give a 60yd shot your 100% swing if you know your 100% goes 100yds, you'll swing slower.


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## bobmac (May 12, 2012)

It's been suggested that it would be better to hit a half shot PW in low  and use spin to control the run. I'm not 100% sure on how to setup for  that. At the range I end up hitting the ball in to a field, so can't  really tell if I am checking the run with spin. 

Any tips?
		
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The LW swung FAST will create spin but wasn't what the OP asked

There's no hard and fast rules for varying the shot distance.
You can lengthen or shorten the swing, you can move up and down the grip or change clubs.
None is right or wrong.
You just need to practice
For the 60 yard shot, you could use the same set up but use the 9 iron or
Use the wedge and swing back and through a bit longer. Each to their own
Most pros have 9 yardages for each wedge by varying the grip position and the length of swing.
That's when the laser rangefinders come in handy.
I'd suggest you try and use different length b/swing and see how you get on. Then try one swing and vary the club and see which is easier for you


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## duncan mackie (May 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			1. Full shot LW = 100yd shot, full grip, 100mph
2. Half shot LW = 50yd shot, full grip, 50mph
3. Gripped down = 50yd shot, low grip, 75mph, it can't be 50mph as you gripped down and 50mph only goes 50yds with a FULL grip (see 2.) It can't be 100mph because the arc and swing are too short.
		
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you are confusing hand speed with clubhead speed

over 50 yards, and assuming you aren't adjusting the clubhead loft in some way, the clubhead speed will have to be fundamentally the same to achieve the same carry, as Region3 highlights. it's not maths it's golf!

in the video you linked it is the way you go about achieveing that clubhead speed that is being focused on as Region3 highlights

strangely I have never seen a tour pro play that shot in the manner described (well Lanny Wadkins maybe - but he did it with all his shots!)    otoh you will see a large number of chots played as Bob describes...


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## JustOne (May 12, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			you are confusing hand speed with clubhead speed

over 50 yards, and assuming you aren't adjusting the clubhead loft in some way, the clubhead speed will have to be fundamentally the same to achieve the same carry, as Region3 highlights. it's not maths it's golf!
		
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With wedge in hand you make a half shot and it goes 50yds, however if you grip down the club and apply the same swing it won't go 50yds because you've gripped down (less clubhead speed) so you have to swing faster to get the same clubhead speed ..eg be more aggressive.

I don't know if there's more going on than meets the eye as I don't work for the Titleist Performance Institute however there might be other factors introduced by gripping down eg steeper or more loft added as I do know that when I grip down my 5-wood to the metal I generally block or cut it (face must be more open than expected).

As an aside... when watching golf on the tele (top pros) it's often surprising how hard they _appear_ to hit their chip/pitch shots at the flag.


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## duncan mackie (May 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			With wedge in hand you make a half shot and it goes 50yds, however *if you grip down the club and apply the same swing* it won't go 50yds because you've gripped down (less clubhead speed) so you have to swing faster to get the same clubhead speed ..eg be more aggressive.

I don't know if there's more going on than meets the eye as I don't work for the Titleist Performance Institute however there might be other factors introduced by gripping down eg steeper or more loft added as I do know that when I grip down my 5-wood to the metal I generally block or cut it (face must be more open than expected).

As an aside... when watching golf on the tele (top pros) it's often surprising how hard they _appear_ to hit their chip/pitch shots at the flag.
		
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so now you are agreeing - for a shorter club you would need to increase the hand speed to maintain the clubhead speed. the clubhead speed is, however, a constant for any given distance and loft.

I don't like the term agressive either though - I've never seen a ball do anything different when I make agressive faces or swear at it........ I think the key point the 'teacher' in the clip you linked earlier was trying to get over was that the average guy is more comfortable making a positive swing with a shorter, gripped down, club - the tour pro's don't need this artificial approach (normally!). they are quiet able to do the same thing (accelerate through the ball on part swings) with longer clubs - as you point out.

finally, yes - basic geometry. a shorter effective club length will have a smaller radius clubhead path - if the balls towards the back of the stance this will mean it is on a steeper path to the ball at impact. ths assumes all other things are maintained.


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## JustOne (May 12, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			so now you are agreeing - for a shorter club you would need to increase the hand speed to maintain the clubhead speed. the clubhead speed is, however, a constant for any given distance and loft.
		
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Not quite... I just said the same thing in a different way.

I don't agree that there's any difference with hand speed and clubhead speed... they are one and the same (unless you can swing fast without moving your hands? or slow whilst the hands go like greased lightening?)

:fore:


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2012)

Key reason to grip down - and swing faster - is to adjust the speed required, for the distance wanted, to your particular tempo. Yes, you do have to swing faster if you grip down but, as others have said, clubhead speed is clubhead speed however it's created. 

And 1 bounce (or 2) and stop type spin is best achieved by striking it crisply (off the fairway), as the majority of spin generated is by compressing the ball against the ground.


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## JustOne (May 12, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			....as the majority of spin generated is by compressing the ball against the ground.
		
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A golfing myth. The ball leaves the face upwards at impact, it NEVER gets trapped against the ground.


Spin is loft/angle of attack/speed.


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## Foxholer (May 12, 2012)

Oops, sorry.

Should have said 'by the actual strike (through the ball)'. 

A crisp strike compresses the ball allowing the club and ball to be in contact longer and let friction do its work. A steep strike pushing the ball into the highly resistant ground certainly mens the clubface and ball stay in contact for longer - meaning amount of friction is greater.


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