# Would you buy an electric car?



## need_my_wedge (Nov 11, 2020)

One of my motors is coming to the end of its deal and am looking at options to replace it. The current supplier has offered me a pretty good deal to keep me as a customer, new motor for minimal deposit and an extra £6 a month. Trouble is it's a 2L diesel. 

Another good option I've also been offered is on the new Peugeot e-208.  It's a full electric model, which supposedly does 200 miles to a charge, although closer to 150 in real world terms. Mostly to be used by Mrs wedge as a run around, but will occasionally drive it to work (130 mile round trip, charging point at the office). 

I'm kind of leaning towards the e-208, but still not sure on the slight extra cost vs the savings on using electric etc. I have a regular diesel for long journeys, so it really is for local runs mainly. 

Anyone else running electric? Is it cost effective vs diesel? Would you go electric?


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## Imurg (Nov 11, 2020)

At the moment..no.
Both cars are paid for.
No reason to change either, especially the Mrs car. 15 plate, 50k diesel...barely run in.
She likes it and it does what we need it to. Having said that, for the amount she now uses it, an electric would be ideal but the cost to change isn't worth it.
Mine will last a couple more years at least before it needs replacing.
The market for automatic lessons is small...rising but small.
Most want to learn manual and electrics are automatic 
For the number of years I have left to work it wouldn't be worth it unless the market changes within a couple of years.
Never say Never but....


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2020)

Can you charge the car at home?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 11, 2020)

My company moves cars and we deliver lots of electric vehicles, they are certainly cheap to run, a full charge costing around £7 at a commercial charging point.

Whether it is the right car for you depends on your circumstances, you really need the capacity to charge the vehicle at home, a 3 pin plug cable will give you 50 miles overnight, but a dedicated supply which you can get a grant for, is the smart option.

The cars themselves are really good, nippy and responsive, the range will depend on how you drive it, too much right foot with lights on and the heating will dramatically reduce it

Also they are a premium price at the mo, this needs to reduce to match the petrol vehicle cost.

Battery technology is moving forward quickly and the electric car of 5 years hence will be much better and cheaper than the electric car of this moment in time


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Can you charge the car at home?
		
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Yep, the govt and Peugeot subsidise a home charging point, costs me about £100 to fit


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			My company moves cars and we deliver lots of electric vehicles, they are certainly cheap to run, a full charge costing around £7 at a commercial charging point.

Whether it is the right car for you depends on your circumstances, you really need the capacity to charge the vehicle at home, a 3 pin plug cable will give you 50 miles overnight, but a dedicated supply which you can get a grant for, is the smart option.

The cars themselves are really good, nippy and responsive, the range will depend on how you drive it, too much right foot with lights on and the heating will dramatically reduce it

Also they are a premium price at the mo, this needs to reduce to match the petrol vehicle cost.

Battery technology is moving forward quickly and the electric car of 5 years hence will be much better and cheaper than the electric car of this moment in time
		
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It's a lease option, so just give it back in 3 or 4 years depending on which term I take.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 11, 2020)

Not at the moment. I think when we get rid of this one we'll think about it subject to charging. Thats definitely the biggest concern HID has at the moment. Hopefully by then things will have improved much more than they are now, cars will run further per charge


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

There is an interesting concept about I can't remember the company but you rent the car

For the fee you get.. the car
Insurance 
Service and maintenance
Tyres 
And 1000 miles a month worth of free charge on the polar network 

Fee set by car you choose 

For example BMW i3 £469 pm


Anyways my next car I will be getting an electric car ... Hyundai Kona electric 64kw battery is one I'm eyeing.. 301 mile range .. real world 250 ISH 

12,000 miles a year .. 4 year lease 3 months down .. £330 per month 

Octopus energy 5p per hour to charge at night between midnight and 4am

Looking forward to it


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			One of my motors is coming to the end of its deal and am looking at options to replace it. The current supplier has offered me a pretty good deal to keep me as a customer, new motor for minimal deposit and an extra £6 a month. Trouble is it's a 2L diesel. 

Another good option I've also been offered is on the new Peugeot e-208.  It's a full electric model, which supposedly does 200 miles to a charge, although closer to 150 in real world terms. Mostly to be used by Mrs wedge as a run around, but will occasionally drive it to work (130 mile round trip, charging point at the office). 

I'm kind of leaning towards the e-208, but still not sure on the slight extra cost vs the savings on using electric etc. I have a regular diesel for long journeys, so it really is for local runs mainly. 

Anyone else running electric? Is it cost effective vs diesel? Would you go electric?
		
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If you can charge at the office id 100% get one 

The savings in fuel would be massive 

A full charge on that would cost between £8.50 on a standard tarif but if you could charge overnight using a special tarif and combine with charging at work you could charge 4 hours a night £1.40 ... So a trip to work would cost you £1.40 ...... Just top up for free at work

We don't have charging at work 

My current is 2l diesel or 1.5 petrol 

I spend £160 month fuel for both cars combined 

50 mile round trip 

One charge using the 5p only ... £3.10 .. 250 miles that's a week at work for £3.10 

Under £15 a month for fuel 

You can programe it to only charge when you want so you don't pay the more electric fee


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2020)

If the longest journey you do is 65 miles then it's a no brainer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If the longest journey you do is 65 miles then it's a no brainer.
		
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https://on.to/

You love these things Bob

What you think of these deals


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 11, 2020)

No.  For what I use the car for, there is not yet the infrastructure or the vehicle that would suit my needs in terms of range; I can't guarantee having a charging point at places I would go to & the vehicles haven't got the range to make the round trip.  The current car isn't 2 years old so no need to replace and I'm not prepared pay the current prices of electric cars, not that I could replace mine like for like with a full electric car; hybrid is as close as I could get.


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			There is an interesting concept about I can't remember the company but you rent the car

For the fee you get.. the car
Insurance
Service and maintenance
Tyres
And 1000 miles a month worth of free charge on the polar network

Fee set by car you choose

For example BMW i3 £469 pm


Anyways my next car I will be getting an electric car ... Hyundai Kona electric 64kw battery is one I'm eyeing.. 301 mile range .. real world 250 ISH

12,000 miles a year .. 4 year lease 3 months down .. £330 per month

Octopus energy 5p per hour to charge at night between midnight and 4am

Looking forward to it
		
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The e208 Gti is a similar deal, 10k annual on a 4 year lease  at £307 a month. It has great reviews too, am on the verge.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			The e208 Gti is a similar deal, 10k annual on a 4 year lease  at £307 a month. It has great reviews too, am on the verge.
		
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Only reason I want the Kona is the 301 mile (250) range 

It looks amazing aswell

Kia niro aswell another that looks good and has high range 

I want the range so it can become my proper car whilst we keep the 7 seater for the family


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## Robster59 (Nov 11, 2020)

Not me at the moment for work due to the range limitation and length of charging, and my job takes me around the UK (in normal times).  So I've just ordered a hybrid.  However, my missus does very few miles in her car and nowhere near the range of a fully electric car so when she comes to change, that's something I will be looking at.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Not me at the moment for work due to the range limitation and length of charging, and my job takes me around the UK (in normal times).  So I've just ordered a hybrid.  However, my missus does very few miles in her car and nowhere near the range of a fully electric car so when she comes to change, that's something I will be looking at.
		
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See that's where I see changes happening

Second cars that aren't used as much 

Since lockdown my wife's car has done less than 1000 miles 

Before lockdown it was doing that a month .. and then I've replaced it as the main car 

So easily could make it electric 

My dad's toying with one for mum to drive to work in


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## fundy (Nov 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			See that's where I see changes happening

Second cars that aren't used as much

*Since lockdown my wife's car has done less than 1000 miles*

Before lockdown it was doing that a month .. and then I've replaced it as the main car

*So easily could make it electric*

My dad's toying with one for mum to drive to work in
		
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Not gonna be the cheapest of options that surely? Would happily buy electric if I could justify it but as a low mileage user the purchase costs currently are exorbitant


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2020)

I will be looking at electric for my next car. Good option if there is charging at the office and you can get some savings on your BIK or as a limited company.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2020)

We have a Nissan Leaf and a petrol Nissan. The all electric is a great car but, as it's a few years old the mileage isn't great but then Mrs D doesnt tend to drive far and generally we go in my car when necessary.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 11, 2020)

If the range was comparable to a tank of petrol/diesel and the new purchase costs were similar, then yes I would consider them a lot more.
I can see longer term issues though with charging of them. Only this morning I saw a dustman trip over the charging cable plugged into a lampost with the lead dragged along the pavement/gutter then behind a car next to the lampost then into the pug on the car which was on the live side of the traffic flow. Luckily the dustman didnt hurt himself or anything nearby, but it could have been much worse.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

fundy said:



			Not gonna be the cheapest of options that surely? Would happily buy electric if I could justify it but as a low mileage user the purchase costs currently are exorbitant
		
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We own one car at a time and PCP the other ATM 

Soon as one gets paid off we keep it and PCP a second so the "fleet" is only 6-8 years old

Lockdown meant lots of uncovered desks due to covid so managed to get enough overtime to buy a second hand Alhambra outright to see us a while with the twins 

Honda PCP is up in April mother in law is buying it off me

So going electric with other .. Alhambra will do 5k miles a year


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If the range was comparable to a tank of petrol/diesel and the new purchase costs were similar, then yes I would consider them a lot more.
I can see longer term issues though with charging of them. Only this morning I saw a dustman trip over the charging cable plugged into a lampost with the lead dragged along the pavement/gutter then behind a car next to the lampost then into the pug on the car which was on the live side of the traffic flow. Luckily the dustman didnt hurt himself or anything nearby, but it could have been much worse.
		
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250 miles for a 64kw Hyundai Kona 

My hrv petrol does 350 miles per tank 

Only 100 miles difference


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## Green Man (Nov 11, 2020)

I haven’t gone full electric but I have a 330e Hybrid. 
One thing to be careful of is ensuring there are charging points available to use where you will need them.
 I have the backup of petrol but it’s amazing when your out and about how many public charging points don’t work for one reason or another.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2020)

Not yet - but I expect to one day.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 11, 2020)

Thinking about it .
Have a 18 plate troc but I hardly use it it’s done 7k in 2 1/2 yrs.
If the prices drop yes.
But as more cars go Electric more charging points will be needed and that’s just not happening by me.


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## CliveW (Nov 11, 2020)

I might consider one when I can satisfy myself that the production of the lithium for the batteries is environmentally friendly as is the electricity that it runs on. Ideal for cities where pollution from internal combustion engines is a problem, but the pollution from the generation of electricity has to go somewhere.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I might consider one when I can satisfy myself that the production of the lithium for the batteries is environmentally friendly as is the electricity that it runs on. Ideal for cities where pollution from internal combustion engines is a problem, but the pollution from the generation of electricity has to go somewhere.
		
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That's the thing tho. Once on electric yes the pollination from making electric is there it's easily solved and can solve many people at once 

If half the population took up electric cars by 2035.. they can switch the grid to nuclear .. wind power etc much easier than everyone switching cars


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## Smiffy (Nov 12, 2020)

I'm using an e208 at the moment. It suits me perfectly. I literally live 2 miles (if that) from the showroom and we have two charging points at work. A full charge lasts me the best part of a fortnight. I love it. Can't remember the last time I went to a petrol station.....


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's the thing tho. Once on electric yes the pollination from making electric is there it's easily solved and can solve many people at once

If half the population took up electric cars by 2035.. they can switch the grid to nuclear .. wind power etc much easier than everyone switching cars
		
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I hear that arguement, but how long can we mine the various countries for the lithium required?
If we were investing in and pushing towards hydrogen power I could buy into it much more easily but replacing one finite energy source for another doesn’t seem anything other than short sighted


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2020)

Green Man said:



			I haven’t gone full electric but I have a 330e Hybrid.
One thing to be careful of is ensuring there are charging points available to use where you will need them.
I have the backup of petrol but it’s amazing when your out and about how many public charging points don’t work for one reason or another.
		
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This :

Our drivers are required to deliver an electric vehicle with 80% charge, so they have to find a rapid charging point fairly close to their destination.

I’ve lost count of the times a driver has reported that their preferred charging point is either out of action or has a queue.

Also when we collect an electric vehicle, sometimes it only has a small charge left, and believe me, it’s no fun chasing a working charging point with rapidly diminishing power and no back up


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This :

Our drivers are required to deliver an electric vehicle with 80% charge, so they have to find a rapid charging point fairly close to their destination.

I’ve lost count of the times a driver has reported that their preferred charging point is either out of action or has a queue.

Also when we collect an electric vehicle, sometimes it only has a small charge left, and believe me, it’s no fun chasing a working charging point with rapidly diminishing power and no back up
		
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This is why I won't get one without installing charging at home 

Problem is it's not ideal for everyone


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## Smiffy (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This is why I won't get one without installing charging at home

Problem is it's not ideal for everyone
		
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If somebody comes in asking about electric cars, the 1st question we have to ask them is whether they have off road parking and are able to install a charge point. 
Peugeot have a tie in with PodPoint at the moment, and you can get a wall charger fitted for just over £150.00 (or thereabouts).
You can charge the car up from a domestic 3 pin socket but it takes ages and you have to pay extra for the cable. The type 2 cable comes standard with the car.
We also recommend the download of an App called "Zapmap" which gives you real time information of charge points on your given route.


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## Neilds (Nov 12, 2020)

Are electric cars that much cheaper to run than a conventional car? If you are doing 50-60 miles each day for work, I imagine most will put it on to charge each night which would cost £2-5 (guessing) so about £60-£150 a month. This is only a few tanks of fuel so is the saving as great as people say?


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 12, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			I'm using an e208 at the moment. It suits me perfectly. I literally live 2 miles (if that) from the showroom and we have two charging points at work. A full charge lasts me the best part of a fortnight. I love it. Can't remember the last time I went to a petrol station.....
		
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I've never really been a Peugeot fan, but the e-208 is a smart looking motor. I took one for a short test drive and loved it, it's a little smaller than my GLA, but for a run around it seems perfect. Didn't get a chance to try putting clubs in with the back seats down though. Can I get two sets in with a trolley, that's the big question?

I'm working on the basis that if we ever go back to normal, I'll only be back in the office once a week or, once in two weeks, at least that's what I've asked for. I'll mostly use the Volvo for that, but would like to drive the other car once or twice a month to split the mileage/ cost etc.



PhilTheFragger said:



			This :

Our drivers are required to deliver an electric vehicle with 80% charge, so they have to find a rapid charging point fairly close to their destination.

I’ve lost count of the times a driver has reported that their preferred charging point is either out of action or has a queue.

Also when we collect an electric vehicle, sometimes it only has a small charge left, and believe me, it’s no fun chasing a working charging point with rapidly diminishing power and no back up
		
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If I do go with the e-208, I'll definitely have the charging point installed at home. It's subsidised to install, and is supposed to be a standard fit common with most electric cars (not sure about Tesla but unlikely to get one of those any time soon).


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Are electric cars that much cheaper to run than a conventional car? If you are doing 50-60 miles each day for work, I imagine most will put it on to charge each night which would cost £2-5 (guessing) so about £60-£150 a month. This is only a few tanks of fuel so is the saving as great as people say?
		
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Costs me about £15 of diesel per round trip to the office (130 miles). Before lockdown was spending approx £60 a week on diesel. If I'm only going once a week, twice at most, that's halving my use, if I split that with an electric car, it reduces it further. Similar to Smiffy, Mrs wedge does about 3 miles each way to work, maybe a little more queueing at busy times, but if the car costs £5 to charge, she can possibly run on that for a week or two (if I don't run it down). She normally puts £30 or so of diesel in the second car, electric has to be a saving for both of us.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Are electric cars that much cheaper to run than a conventional car? If you are doing 50-60 miles each day for work, I imagine most will put it on to charge each night which would cost £2-5 (guessing) so about £60-£150 a month. This is only a few tanks of fuel so is the saving as great as people say?
		
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If you charged every night on the cheap 5p tariff where you get 4 hours cheap

You could constantly top up your battery to keep it at max level..

Charging 4 hours at 7kw on the charge points at 5p would cost £1.40 

Now I don't think your commute would even need the full 4 hour charge personally ... So maybe even £1

£7 a week for fully 4 hour charging a night 

£28 a month 

That's cheap


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## Smiffy (Nov 12, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			I've never really been a Peugeot fan, but the e-208 is a smart looking motor. I took one for a short test drive and loved it, it's a little smaller than my GLA, but for a run around it seems perfect. Didn't get a chance to try putting clubs in with the back seats down though. Can I get two sets in with a trolley, that's the big question?
		
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Honest answer is, I don't know for sure, but my guess is that you could. Peugeot also offer the 2008 (small SUV) as an all electric which will definitely cope, but obviously that is a bit more expensive.
I'm very impressed with the new 208. Good looking car, fantastic range of engines, and as I say, I love driving the electric version.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I might consider one when I can satisfy myself that the production of the lithium for the batteries is environmentally friendly as is the electricity that it runs on. Ideal for cities where pollution from internal combustion engines is a problem, but the pollution from the generation of electricity has to go somewhere.
		
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_*''SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars.''*_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



_*''SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars.''*_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

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If that comes into play then surely majority of arguements are out the window 

Just then would be charge time


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## hovis (Nov 12, 2020)

My wife was forced to swap her company car from an audi diesel to a tesla.  We save an absolute fortune on fuel.   I mainly drive this car and I'm at least £200 a month better off on my own.  My colleague has leased a Citroën electric car with a range of 160miles.  He's worked out it will pretty much paid for itself in fuel.
Also, electric cars drive better.  They're alot smoother, quieter and more responsive


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

hovis said:



			My wife was forced to swap her company car from an audi diesel to a tesla.  We save an absolute fortune on fuel.   I mainly drive this car and I'm at least £200 a month better off on my own.  My colleague has leased a Citroën electric car with a range of 160miles.  He's worked out it will pretty much paid for itself in fuel.
Also, electric cars drive better.  They're alot smoother, quieter and more responsive
		
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Also less moving parts so less serviceable parts.. meaning cheaper to service 

Instant power aswell so you can see leafs giving a lot of cars a run for their money if the drivers wanted 

I'm getting electric for 2 reasons 

1 I save on fuel .. brings my commute cost down

2 the talk of congestion charge to the north circular.. electric cars would be free until December 2025 so would really kick the can down the road


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## Neilds (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If you charged every night on the cheap 5p tariff where you get 4 hours cheap

You could constantly top up your battery to keep it at max level..

Charging 4 hours at 7kw on the charge points at 5p would cost £1.40

Now I don't think your commute would even need the full 4 hour charge personally ... So maybe even £1

£7 a week for fully 4 hour charging a night

£28 a month

That's cheap
		
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All good in theory but I was hoping someone would come and quote real life figures. Just as the range is nowhere near what manufacturers claim (same as mpg) is the cost really as cheap as what is quoted. And not for 3-4 mile commutes that maybe should be done on foot or cycle (different subject) but daily drives of between 50 and 100 miles which would be more representative of what I would need


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## hovis (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			All good in theory but I was hoping someone would come and quote real life figures. Just as the range is nowhere near what manufacturers claim (same as mpg) is the cost really as cheap as what is quoted. And not for 3-4 mile commutes that maybe should be done on foot or cycle (different subject) but daily drives of between 50 and 100 miles which would be more representative of what I would need
		
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I've done the maths and it works out that the cost of the electric is around 1/3.  So if you get through £300 of diesel your looking at £100 of electricity instead.   But I charge up at work and at the belfry.  All free

You can get an app for your charge point and it gives you a real breakdown of costs


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## Neilds (Nov 12, 2020)

hovis said:



			I've done the maths and it works out that the cost of the electric is around 1/3.  So if you get through £300 of diesel your looking at £100 of electricity instead.   But I charge up at work and at the belfry.  All free
		
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Where I work there aren’t chargers and they don’t have plans to fit them so unfortunately it looks like it is still a no from me☹️


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## hovis (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Where I work there aren’t chargers and they don’t have plans to fit them so unfortunately it looks like it is still a no from me☹️
		
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Can't you charge at home?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			All good in theory but I was hoping someone would come and quote real life figures. Just as the range is nowhere near what manufacturers claim (same as mpg) is the cost really as cheap as what is quoted. And not for 3-4 mile commutes that maybe should be done on foot or cycle (different subject) but daily drives of between 50 and 100 miles which would be more representative of what I would need
		
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I drive 50 miles a day 

You can set the charge to charge only at cheap times 

Plug in every night like I said .. £1.40 for the full 4 hours 

That will easily do the milage needed 

If you charged at full rate of 15p the 64kw battery that does 250-301 miles is £9.60

But it's completely different from normal car ownership .. you do fill up nightly 

You programe it to charge when it's cheap 

On some chargers you can say right my tarif is this .. I want 100 mile charge at 4am Monday and it's Wednesday .. plug it in...then it will only charge at the cheap times and get to that figure 

When do you do this with a normal car?

Full charge at the cheap rate £3.20.. at full rate 9.60

For a full charge of the 64kw battery I'm looking at is 9 hours .... Say you plug in 9pm and charge straight away 4 of those 9 hours will be £1.4 the other 5 will be £5.25 so that's £6.65 for 250 mile charge ........

But again when will you do this every night .. maybe once a week if I did a full week at work then charged 

But I'll do my 50 miles .. plug in.. say only charge at cheap times and it will replace those 50 miles .

That's the difference and cost.

For reference my hrv gets 350-400 to a tank .. £50 ISH to fill up 

My seat gets 600 odd miles to a tank £70 ISH 

So even if I charge at full whack, and only got 200 miles it would slash my petrol and diesel costs dramatically


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## Neilds (Nov 12, 2020)

hovis said:



			Can't you charge at home?
		
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Yes I could but that would cost me. A lot of examples you read, including on this thread say that they save loads of money but mainly this is charging for free at work so for me this would be a false economy. Unless I could charge free at work it wouldn’t be cost effective for the extra outlay of purchase. And that is before factoring on the monthly 200 mile each way trip to visit family (post lockdown - obviously 😀)


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

If you currently drive an ICE car that does 50mpg, 10,000 miles will cost you roughly £1,150 in fuel.

The equivalent electric car when charged at home will cost you £250


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If you currently drive an ICE car that does 50mpg, 10,000 miles will cost you roughly £1,150 in fuel.

The equivalent electric car when charged at home will cost you £250
		
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For the sake of easy numbers, lets just say there's £1k difference. 10 years = £10k. But if the purchase price differential is £10k, or more for the Peugeot, where is the saving?


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For the sake of easy numbers, lets just say there's £1k difference. 10 years = £10k. But if the purchase price differential is £10k, or more for the Peugeot, where is the saving?
		
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The Peugeot is a lease, and will cost me £17 a month more than the car it's replacing. If comparing car for car, we lose a little space, and the price per month is slightly higher, although replacing like for like will cost me a couple of quid extra as well, so maybe £10 a difference per month, which equates to £120 per year. Based on the 10K figures above, stand to save £700+ per year over a replacement diesel.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

Neilds said:



			Yes I could but that would cost me. A lot of examples you read, including on this thread say that they save loads of money but mainly this is charging for free at work so for me this would be a false economy. Unless I could charge free at work it wouldn’t be cost effective for the extra outlay of purchase. And that is before factoring on the monthly 200 mile each way trip to visit family (post lockdown - obviously 😀)
		
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Wouldn't cost you much to charge at home tho. As my costed example showed.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

EVs are not for everyone yet.
Some can't afford a new one, some need more range, some can't charge at home, some just like the noise of a V8.
But things are changing, you only have to look at the car adverts on TV..... they are mostly hybrid or fully electric.

Oil and gas prices will continue to rise as they run out (don't even mention fracking) and renewable energy costs will continue to fall as more solar farms and wind turbines come on line. So cleaner, cheaper, renewable energy and fun cars to drive.

The next 5 years are going to be very interesting, I can't wait.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For the sake of easy numbers, lets just say there's £1k difference. 10 years = £10k. But if the purchase price differential is £10k, or more for the Peugeot, where is the saving?
		
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Lot of people lease now where the cost is a lot less, also you get benefits on company car for going electric etc 

Deal I found was £450 pm on a Peugeot 208 which includes 

Insurance 
Car
Service and maintenance
Tyres 
1000 miles of charging at polar charge points 

£5,400 a year for everything 

That isn't terrible


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For the sake of easy numbers, lets just say there's £1k difference. 10 years = £10k. But if the purchase price differential is £10k, or more for the Peugeot, where is the saving?
		
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Diesel £19,569
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...ode=ng348xf&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

Electric £22,900
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...ion=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

Price parity won't be long.


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## jim8flog (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only reason I want the Kona is the 301 mile (250) range

It looks amazing aswell

Kia niro aswell another that looks good and has high range

I want the range so it can become my proper car whilst we keep the 7 seater for the family
		
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 make sue you give the Kona a good test drive. I had one as a loan car for a day and by the time I returned it my back was killing me.


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## jim8flog (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



_*''SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars.''*_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

Click to expand...

 The cobalt free bit will please those that are ECO friendly. Look up how cobalt is sourced if you do not know.


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## jim8flog (Nov 12, 2020)

One thing I have seen little of in this thread is a reference to service costs

Electric car check the tyres and check the brakes. No oil, filters etc.


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 12, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One thing I have seen little of in this thread is a reference to service costs

Electric car check the tyres and check the brakes. No oil, filters etc.
		
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I questioned this when I was meeting initially, whilst no engine oil there are additional checks such as battery cooling fluid and systems. The service interval is 16000 miles or two years, cost included in the lease plan.


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## Whereditgo (Nov 12, 2020)

The Mrs runs a hybrid and charges at home overnight which is enough charge to get her to work and back each day, around 25 miles each way. We've done the costing comparison and putting aside the higher purchase price of the car and looking at purely fuel costs there is a huge saving over the petrol costs, but in terms of energy usage there is very little difference, the savings are really only there owing to the differing taxation on the fuels.

Putting aside the environmental debate as this discussion is purely about the costs.

As more and more vehicles are able to use electricity, either partly or wholly, there will be a huge reduction in funds going into the treasury. I can foresee the electricity being used for electric vehicle charging being sub-metered and charged at a different rate to recoup some or all of the shortfall.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			make sue you give the Kona a good test drive. I had one as a loan car for a day and by the time I returned it my back was killing me.
		
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If you had for a day did you play around with the lumbar support much? The Kona electric is suppose to have the most range of driving positions on the electric range ATM


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## Imurg (Nov 12, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			The Mrs runs a hybrid and charges at home overnight which is enough charge to get her to work and back each day, around 25 miles each way. We've done the costing comparison and putting aside the higher purchase price of the car and looking at purely fuel costs there is a huge saving over the petrol costs, but in terms of energy usage there is very little difference, the savings are really only there owing to the differing taxation on the fuels.

Putting aside the environmental debate as this discussion is purely about the costs.

As more and more vehicles are able to use electricity, either partly or wholly, there will be a huge reduction in funds going into the treasury. I can foresee the electricity being used for electric vehicle charging being sub-metered and charged at a different rate to recoup some or all of the shortfall.
		
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I think it has to..how much of a £1 of petrol goes in tax..? 50%?
So £2.50-£3 a gallon goes to the Govt.
25-30 quid a tank
Thats a lot of revenue they're going to miss out on....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			The Mrs runs a hybrid and charges at home overnight which is enough charge to get her to work and back each day, around 25 miles each way. We've done the costing comparison and putting aside the higher purchase price of the car and looking at purely fuel costs there is a huge saving over the petrol costs, but in terms of energy usage there is very little difference, the savings are really only there owing to the differing taxation on the fuels.

Putting aside the environmental debate as this discussion is purely about the costs.

As more and more vehicles are able to use electricity, either partly or wholly, there will be a huge reduction in funds going into the treasury. I can foresee the electricity being used for electric vehicle charging being sub-metered and charged at a different rate to recoup some or all of the shortfall.
		
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See this is where I don't see them being able to tax it

They would be taxing a lot of people who don't use electric cars etc

They want us all on electric boilers by 2040 is it? So all our heating and electric use at home would be taxed more to catch road users?

If anything they will have to road tax electric cars .. maybe done on milage driven

They won't be able to do sub metres

They have pushed us onto smart metres with 30 min feeds to the networks 

That's how they can say right cheaper at this time 

I can't imagine them changing the smart metres again when it's already costing them billions


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## jim8flog (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If you had for a day did you play around with the lumbar support much? The Kona electric is suppose to have the most range of driving positions on the electric range ATM
		
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 Not really I was not driving it that far and initially it felt comfortable enough. Could have been the overall driving as it was such a different drive position compared to my own car (Peugeot 308).  I was also having enough problems with working out some of the electrics eg. the previous driver had left the lane assist on (very scary).


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Not really I was not driving it that far and initially it felt comfortable enough. Could have been the overall driving as it was such a different drive position compared to my own car (Peugeot 308).  I was also having enough problems with working out some of the electrics eg. the previous driver had left the lane assist on (very scary).
		
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Love lane assist , but not if you don't know it's on

First time I drove my car My back ached but once I fiddled around I haven't felt a twinge since 

Sometimes too many positions can be counter productive


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think it has to..how much of a £1 of petrol goes in tax..? 50%?
So £2.50-£3 a gallon goes to the Govt.
25-30 quid a tank
Thats a lot of revenue they're going to miss out on....
		
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Maybe they will save some money when they stop spending millions subsidising fossil fuel burning power stations.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe they will save some money when they stop spending millions subsidising fossil fuel burning power stations.
		
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Do you mean like paying over the odds per unit of leccy produced from the new nuclear power stations?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			See this is where I don't see them being able to tax it

They would be taxing a lot of people who don't use electric cars etc

They want us all on electric boilers by 2040 is it? So all our heating and electric use at home would be taxed more to catch road users?

If anything they will have to road tax electric cars .. maybe done on milage driven

They won't be able to do sub metres

They have pushed us onto smart metres with 30 min feeds to the networks

That's how they can say right cheaper at this time

I can't imagine them changing the smart metres again when it's already costing them billions
		
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Its us the consumer who’s paying for those smart meters, so don’t think it’s costing the power companies it isn’t.
Do you remember the arguement for water meters....”we need to conserve water and your water bills will be less”
Strange how the unit cost of water has risen exponentially since the meters went in and our consumption dropped.


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## Piece (Nov 12, 2020)

To the OP, no. I recently changed my car and electric wasn't a consideration. With the direction of travel currently, I could well be in 4 years time. 

Better infrastructure and double range, then I'm talking. I love the look of the Porsche Taycan.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



_*''SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars.''*_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

Click to expand...

That sounds good .
It would make my mind up.


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2020)

I changed my car last month for a one year old diesel.  Lecky just isnt and option for where I live and the journeys I do.... but I suspect, in 2-3 years if i change again the landscape will look quite different.


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## CliveW (Nov 12, 2020)

I've just been talking to a golfing buddy who has a Lexus hybrid and asked what MPG he got expecting it to be quite high. His answer was around 26 mpg! My 12 month old BMW 520d returns over 48 mpg and as it was 10 months old when I bought it was almost 50% off the new price.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I've just been talking to a golfing buddy who has a Lexus hybrid and asked what MPG he got expecting it to be quite high. His answer was around 26 mpg! My 12 month old BMW 520d returns over 48 mpg and as it was 10 months old when I bought it was almost 50% off the new price.
		
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Strange.
The mpg of a Lexus hybrid is normally around 68-70 mpg, unless it was an older model?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Strange.
The mpg of a Lexus hybrid is normally around 68-70 mpg, unless it was an older model?
		
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Or a plug in hyrbid where the owner doesn't use the plug and just uses the engine to get around emission charges


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Strange.
The mpg of a Lexus hybrid is normally around 68-70 mpg, unless it was an older model?
		
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Not sure where you get those figures from but I reckon you are a good 20mpg optimistic at best. Check out their website and factor in they will be exaggerated.

The SUV Lexus cars will be 20's, nx, may be mid 30's. Not good options.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not sure where you get those figures from but I reckon you are a good 20mpg optimistic at best. Check out their website and factor in they will be exaggerated.

The SUV Lexus cars will be 20's, nx, may be mid 30's. Not good options.
		
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I'm just going by what auto trader says.

Fuel

Urban 68.9 mpg
Extra urban 70.6 mpg
Combined 68.9 mpg 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...chad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

I know all manufacturers may exaggerate their mpg figures but 68-70 mpg down to 26 is a bit strange


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## spongebob59 (Nov 12, 2020)

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/real-mpg/


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## Green Man (Nov 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Or a plug in hyrbid where the owner doesn't use the plug and just uses the engine to get around emission charges
		
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Don’t forget the massive BIK savings if your a company car driver.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm just going by what auto trader says.

Fuel

Urban 68.9 mpg
Extra urban 70.6 mpg
Combined 68.9 mpg

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009113612815?make=LEXUS&fuel-type=Hybrid – Petrol/Electric&include-delivery-option=on&radius=1500&sort=relevance&postcode=ng348xf&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

I know all manufacturers may exaggerate their mpg figures but 68-70 mpg down to 26 is a bit strange
		
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That's a copy and paste job from the era of fantasy figures. 

These are the current numbers, still likely to be over cooked.
https://www.lexus.co.uk/car-models/...LHT4SQHsRPg6L3IuOlRoCFkkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## BiMGuy (Nov 12, 2020)

There currently isn't an EV that suits what I need/want at the price I want to pay for a car. 

Current car is a 535d touring which has the ideal mix of power, range, space and comfort for me. Pre lockdown I was doing just short of 30k a miles a year. I spend enough time in service stations as it is without needing to charge a car. 

If I continue being based from home long term then I could be tempted to go EV when it comes to change. But then again I could also be tempted to go for a sports car 🤷


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## USER1999 (Nov 12, 2020)

CliveW said:



			I've just been talking to a golfing buddy who has a Lexus hybrid and asked what MPG he got expecting it to be quite high. His answer was around 26 mpg! My 12 month old BMW 520d returns over 48 mpg and as it was 10 months old when I bought it was almost 50% off the new price.
		
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That would be abysmal. My 5.5 AMG has averaged 25 over the two years since I bought it, and that has no pretence of being a hybrid.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think it has to..how much of a £1 of petrol goes in tax..? 50%?
So £2.50-£3 a gallon goes to the Govt.
25-30 quid a tank
Thats a lot of revenue they're going to miss out on....
		
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Try nearer 70%;

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/taxation-as-percentage-of-pump-price-data-page


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 13, 2020)

Without a doubt, smallest, cheapest thing I could get too. If I ever need a bigger car I would just rent one for the rare occasion.

I hope this is a model of the future as some (probably not golfers and those with young family’s) drive around a big car on their own because a couple of times a year they need the space. Madness!


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## Sweep (Nov 13, 2020)

I went electric in September. Tax benefits for my particular situation made it a no brainer.
As a petrolhead ( I have a sports car as a hobby) I was skeptical. However, I have to say it is absolutely fantastic.
I guess much depends on the model you buy, but this thing is quick, handles wonderfully, great fun to drive, comfortable, quiet, smooth and cheap to run.I put in a home charging point and that makes it viable in my view.
They are expensive but the tax element often trumps that.
If you think electric would work for you practically, I would highly recommend going for it. You won’t look back.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I went electric in September. Tax benefits for my particular situation made it a no brainer.
As a petrolhead ( I have a sports car as a hobby) I was skeptical. However, I have to say it is absolutely fantastic.
I guess much depends on the model you buy, but this thing is quick, handles wonderfully, great fun to drive, comfortable, quiet, smooth and cheap to run.I put in a home charging point and that makes it viable in my view.
They are expensive but the tax element often trumps that.
If you think electric would work for you practically, I would highly recommend going for it. You won’t look back.
		
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I yesterday have switched to octopus energy ready to switch to the electric car in April (deal was up anyways so thought rather than go elsewhere) 

We will keep the massive diesel car for long trips and times we need to go out as a family ..

Great for going to work or the golf course for me


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 13, 2020)

Yes, ordered an e208 through work and it arrives in January. 
Certainly not a brand I’d buy and it’s a big step down on hp but there’s something about the interior and not many options out there for electric. But it’s £285 a month with servicing, tyres, breakdown and free charging at work. 
Hopefully in three years they’ll be more choice in the hatchback or crossover range. Maybe Tesla might make something smaller.


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## GB72 (Nov 13, 2020)

I like the idea of an electric car but I have a few concerns. I live and work in relatively rural areas and so charging is limited to say the least. Certainly no option to charge in the day. Then there is the other concern, what if I forget to plug it in at night. With a normal car, not a problem, just limp it to a petrol station or use some of the fuel I have in the garage to get me there. With electric, I am stuck with no transport for several hours. Range is also a concern as I do not want to have to stop for a period on a journey to charge up. 

I am also concerned about the life of the batteries. From what I understand, they are basically blocks of 18650 cells. If that is the case, how long before they stop charging to full capacity and what is the cost to replace. That certainly makes me nervous of the second hand market.


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## Sweep (Nov 14, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Yes, ordered an e208 through work and it arrives in January.
Certainly not a brand I’d buy and it’s a big step down on hp but there’s something about the interior and not many options out there for electric. But it’s £285 a month with servicing, tyres, breakdown and free charging at work.
Hopefully in three years they’ll be more choice in the hatchback or crossover range. Maybe Tesla might make something smaller.
		
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Tesla are bringing out an SUV soon.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I like the idea of an electric car but I have a few concerns. I live and work in relatively rural areas and so charging is limited to say the least. Certainly no option to charge in the day. Then there is the other concern, what if I forget to plug it in at night. With a normal car, not a problem, just limp it to a petrol station or use some of the fuel I have in the garage to get me there. With electric, I am stuck with no transport for several hours. Range is also a concern as I do not want to have to stop for a period on a journey to charge up.

I am also concerned about the life of the batteries. From what I understand, they are basically blocks of 18650 cells. If that is the case, how long before they stop charging to full capacity and what is the cost to replace. That certainly makes me nervous of the second hand market.
		
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Have to admit it's why I'm doing a 4 year lease then that gives me chance to see what advances are about after


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This :

Our drivers are required to deliver an electric vehicle with 80% charge, so they have to find a rapid charging point fairly close to their destination.

I’ve lost count of the times a driver has reported that their preferred charging point is either out of action or has a queue.

Also when we collect an electric vehicle, sometimes it only has a small charge left, and believe me, it’s no fun chasing a working charging point with rapidly diminishing power and no back up
		
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The goal is all electric, but that cannot be achieved until the charging problem is solved. And the charging problem is becoming something of an "elephant in the room" thing.
What has to be faced is the safe, secure and practicable charging for all the people who will use cars. That will be no less than those who do now.

And where do those people live. ? 
1. Not all in homes with drives where charging can be done from the house.
2.Not all in streets where they can park outside their homes and charge from many many charge points. It is debatable that this is practicable. I think it is not. (Talk about snakes on a plane😀)

There are more ,I suggest, drivers who live in flats, terraced housing, and houses where cables cannot securely charge overnight.

At present, refuelling means visiting a petrol station maybe once a week.
Refuelling all electric will mean, for most, refuelling overnight.
No problem in No.1 above, but a big big problem for everyone else.

I think that all electric will not take off until the battery technology is such that  drivers can detach the battery, take it indoors and charge there - much like I do with my buggy battery.
That will come , technology will find a way, but until then, no government can legislate to remove petrol,and diesel vehicles from the roads.
But such legislation will happen when all electric becomes viable.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The goal is all electric, but that cannot be achieved until the charging problem is solved. And the charging problem is becoming something of an "elephant in the room" thing.
What has to be faced is the safe, secure and practicable charging for all the people who will use cars. That will be no less than those who do now.

And where do those people live. ?
1. Not all in homes with drives where charging can be done from the house.
2.Not all in streets where they can park outside their homes and charge from many many charge points. It is debatable that this is practicable. I think it is not. (Talk about snakes on a plane😀)

There are more ,I suggest, drivers who live in flats, terraced housing, and houses where cables cannot securely charge overnight.

At present, refuelling means visiting a petrol station maybe once a week.
Refuelling all electric will mean, for most, refuelling overnight.
No problem in No.1 above, but a big big problem for everyone else.

I think that all electric will not take off until the battery technology is such that  drivers can detach the battery, take it indoors and charge there - much like I do with my buggy battery.
That will come , technology will find a way, but until then, no government can legislate to remove petrol,and diesel vehicles from the roads.
But such legislation will happen when all electric becomes viable.
		
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The cynic in me sees the bringing forward of ban of sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2040 to 2030 just a way to prop up the car industry .. make people buy new cars constantly etc 

Obviously the lease market does that already 

Lease hybrids until 2035 now is a half option 

Completely side note reminds me when I went for an air con recharge at Kwik fit few years ago (only went because it's a simple machine they can't muck it up .. plug and play no options for extras and they had done my Honda) took my hybrid in pre paid and they said oh we don't touch hybrids apart from tyres company policy you need to get a refund 

Going to have to adapt fast to that with is it Volvo making their entire range hyrbid soon?

Went to a local garage paid £5 Less and got to watch him do it.. he was explaining how simple it is ... How he couldn't believe how they would turn buisness away for plug and play 

Been there a few times since .. much better service


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That will come , technology will find a way, but until then, no government can legislate to remove petrol,and diesel vehicles from the roads.
But such legislation will happen when all electric becomes viable.
		
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but the government isn't planning to remove petrol and diesel vehicles from the roads, it is going to stop the sales of new petrol/diesel cars by 2035. 15 years.
So up until then, you can still buy one, keep it and drive it for 5/10/15 years. That potentially takes you up to 2050.

10 years ago there were no electric cars or chargers. Today, there are over 35,000 chargers  https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ In 15 years time, who knows how many.

Everyone in the EV industry knows the problems with charging and great improvements have been made with the charging infrastructure, just like when the first motor car became widely available.
Intrestingly, if you were fortunate enough to have one of the first cars back in the early 1920s, there were no petrol stations, you had to buy your petrol from the chemist, 2 gallons at a time.


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## banjofred (Nov 14, 2020)

We only put about 5000 miles a year on the car....electric would work for us. IFFF they ever look like they are going to get a lot of charge points.....would consider it. Right now....almost nothing around us. Just too inconvenient at this time....it'll get better. But no way by 2030 as they stated on tv will there be enough charge points....


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## Sweep (Nov 14, 2020)

The charging network must improve and all / most electric vehicles will have to have fast charging technology similar to Tesla supercharging. However governments around the world are not going to let this go.
There is a video on YouTube from Harry’s Garage which explains it well. There is going to be a carrot and stick approach. This is a car enthusiasts channel and even he says that in 3 years time every new car will have some kind of plug attached, whether we like it or not. This is because governments like the EU have set a fleet average carbon emissions level all motor manufacturers must meet. If their fleet average exceeds it, there is a huge fine of possibly several thousands of Euros for each car they sell. So if a motor manufacturer wants to sell a diesel SUV it will have to have an all electric in their range to bring down the average, otherwise their vehicle cost becomes unviable.
As for the future, well be ready for huge changes. It’s possible the ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine cars won’t have much effect on new car buying habits, because we probably won’t be buying new cars anyway. I was reading that children born today will likely never have a driving licence. Self driving cars will be the norm, a journey will be ordered on your phone and a self drive car will come and collect you. All paid for through the app.
Only the future will tell of course, but this stuff is coming and a lot quicker than most people think.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 14, 2020)

People keep talking about the inevitability of self driving cars but I don't hear anything from consumers suggesting they either want them or will buy into them. The tech may be getting closer but it doesn't mean people will buy them.


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## yandabrown (Nov 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			People keep talking about the inevitability of self driving cars but I don't hear anything from consumers suggesting they either want them or will buy into them. The tech may be getting closer but it doesn't mean people will buy them.
		
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I was going to suggest that the target market for these kinds of cars are companies like Uber etc. However,  I've just read that they are selling of their self drive car business.


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2020)

My issue with driverless cars is, and always has been, the non-driverless cars on the road at the same time..
The unpredictability of humans makes it dangerous to rely on a computer to get you out of trouble when Joe Public turns right with 0.00000001 seconds of notice.
I have nothing against driverless cars, I just don't think there's a place for them until all cars are driverless.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 14, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I was going to suggest that the target market for these kinds of cars are companies like Uber etc. However,  I've just read that they are selling of their self drive car business.
		
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I accept they will come along at some point but I don't see a charge by the mass population to these. Small numbers to start with, big cities perhaps, but I think it will be decades before they really make an impact. 

(This statement could come back to haunt me of course 😁)


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

Some think of them as driverless taxis.
Every morning at a pre-arranged time one turns up and takes you to work. No parking required, just drops you off. Another collects you at tea time and takes you home.
You can of course drive it yourself but why would you, especially after a few sherries.


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

_''There's not going to be autonomous cars until long after we are dead.''  James May 
''They are decades away''  Jeremy Clarkson  _
_Grand tour 2016_

_2019_

_



_


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## Leftie (Nov 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			(This statement could come back to haunt me of course 😁)
		
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Unlikely in my life time


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

Leftie said:



			Unlikely in my life time 

Click to expand...

You'll need a special left hand drive one


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## Lump (Nov 14, 2020)

Not until the gubberment tells me I have to.


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## Sweep (Nov 14, 2020)

I understand Tesla has its full self drive beta out to a few testers in the US now, as from a couple of weeks ago.
I agree, having humans driving and self driving cars on the road at the same time will be problematic and how this is resolved will be key.
Mine has Auto Pilot and whilst it isn’t perfect, it’s easy to see how it can be very soon.
To be honest, on the times I have tried it I find myself being more alert to the road and what is going on around me. That may ease when I learn to trust it as I am assured I will but for now I prefer to drive the car myself.
It seems fine on motorways and dual carriageways, not so on smaller roads.  Surprisingly I am told it’s at its best in heavy stop - start traffic, where you just let the car take over, go when the car in front moves and stops when halts again. 
It is certainly a bit weird seeing the car do this stuff but I am sure it’s something we will get used to.


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## CliveW (Nov 14, 2020)

One thing that hasnt been mentioned is the extra production of electriciry required. One report i read stated that if all the cars on the road today were replaced with electric ones the UK would have to generate 75% more electricity than we currently do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Please correct me if I'm wrong but the government isn't planning to remove petrol and diesel vehicles from the roads, it is going to stop the sales of new petrol/diesel cars by 2035. 15 years.
So up until then, you can still buy one, keep it and drive it for 5/10/15 years. That potentially takes you up to 2050.

10 years ago there were no electric cars or chargers. Today, there are over 35,000 chargers  https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ In 15 years time, who knows how many.

Everyone in the EV industry knows the problems with charging and great improvements have been made with the charging infrastructure, just like when the first motor car became widely available.
Intrestingly, if you were fortunate enough to have one of the first cars back in the early 1920s, there were no petrol stations, you had to buy your petrol from the chemist, 2 gallons at a time.
		
Click to expand...

Ref your first para, the words" planning to" are liked by politicians. Because next day/year that can be changed to what they wish.
When it suits, this or any other Government will legislate as they wish.
Their present laws or plans are not set in stone.
I know what the present plans are, but dates to do things will change according to how technology and climate change requirements( and other parameters) change. What they are anticipating now will have little effect on future policy.
The carrot ( incentives) will come first, then the stick (law), and it will be graduated, but it will be a fluid timetable. And even that can be accelerated by a change of government.
So don't bank on driving your diesel *on the road *in 2050 or  2040.


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

CliveW said:



			One thing that hasnt been mentioned is the extra production of electriciry required. One report i read stated that if all the cars on the road today were replaced with electric ones the UK would have to generate 75% more electricity than we currently do.
		
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All cars wont change to electric overnight, it will be a gradual process, just like the expansion of renewable energy.
And not all cars are charged at the same time. I know some are charged every night, some once a week, some once a fortnight. It's a bit like saying if all petrol cars wanted petrol at the same time, petrol stations wouldn't cope, which is true. 
Then there's the vehicle to grid system  where you charge your car overnight, then power your house using the cars batteries or when there's peak demand on the national grid, the grid can use a little power from your car to balance the grid. Not just your car, 1000s of cars.
Here's a very interesting chat with James Kelloway, Energy Intelligence Manager, from National Grid ESO


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			All cars wont change to electric overnight, it will be a gradual process, just like the expansion of renewable energy.
And not all cars are charged at the same time. I know some are charged every night, some once a week, some once a fortnight. It's a bit like saying if all petrol cars wanted petrol at the same time, petrol stations wouldn't cope, which is true.
Then there's the vehicle to grid system  where you charge your car overnight, then power your house using the cars batteries or when there's peak demand on the national grid, the grid can use a little power from your car to balance the grid. Not just your car, 1000s of cars.
Here's a very interesting chat with James Kelloway, Energy Intelligence Manager, from National Grid ESO







Click to expand...

Not to mention storage at home ideas around ... Old batteries on side of houses that could store electric from off peak times for use at other times .... That can also be charged by people's solar panels ..


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 14, 2020)

Have been giving it a lot of thought since raising this thread. Been reading with interest, along with reading and watching a lot of stuff on line. I think right now, I'm going to stick with a replacement ICE, going to wait for the next car change in a couple of years when hopeful the EV infrastructure will be better, along with the car battery capabilities. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not to mention storage at home ideas around ... Old batteries on side of houses that could store electric from off peak times for use at other times .... That can also be charged by people's solar panels ..
		
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Absolutely.
Charge them up when its sunny, use them to power your house when its not. And if they run low, charge them from the grid overnight when its cheap. 
Sadly there's a lot of misleading stuff being written by people who work in the fossil fuel industry but that's only to be expected I suppose.


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Have been giving it a lot of thought since raising this thread. Been reading with interest, along with reading and watching a lot of stuff on line. I think right now, I'm going to stick with a replacement ICE, going to wait for the next car change in a couple of years when hopeful the EV infrastructure will be better, along with the car battery capabilities. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
		
Click to expand...

You do surprise me, keep the Volvo for long journeys and use the Ev for runabouts. Charge at home. Perfect.
Still, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2020)

Simple answer is no until we have no choice , they are not a workable , practical or affordable option for many right now and don’t see it for a while yet.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Simple answer is no until we have no choice , they are not a workable , practical or affordable option for many right now and don’t see it for a while yet.
		
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They are premium priced at the mo 

If you take the current “ Car of the year” the Vauxhall Corsa the basic E version is £10k more expensive than the petrol version, £16k to £26k not including optional extras, although you will save in running costs, no road tax, no congestion charge etc. It is unlikely you will recoup that extra cost over the life of the vehicle, say 7 years, although it does come with an 8 year battery warranty.

The other thing not yet mentioned is used car values, the battery will need replacing after 8/9 years and this won’t be cheap

So you might be looking at near 100 % depreciation over this time, whereas most vehicles would depreciate by around 80%


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			They are premium priced at the mo

If you take the current “ Car of the year” the Vauxhall Corsa the basic E version is £10k more expensive than the petrol version, £16k to £26k not including optional extras, although you will save in running costs, no road tax, no congestion charge etc. It is unlikely you will recoup that extra cost over the life of the vehicle, say 7 years, although it does come with an 8 year battery warranty.

The other thing not yet mentioned is used car values, the battery will need replacing after 8/9 years and this won’t be cheap

So you might be looking at near 100 % depreciation over this time, whereas most vehicles would depreciate by around 80%
		
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My last car was 13 years old when I part exchanged it & will be good for a few years more.  If I'd kept it then I'd be looking at a second set of batteries.

In all the sums that are done about how green electric cars are supposed to be, is this accounted for in pollution terms?  In hard cash terms, with the thought of having to replace batteries & the cost premium, I think I'll be staying with an ICE as long as I can.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			My last car was 13 years old when I part exchanged it & will be good for a few years more.  If I'd kept it then I'd be looking at a second set of batteries.

In all the sums that are done about how green electric cars are supposed to be, is this accounted for in pollution terms?  In hard cash terms, with the thought of having to replace batteries & the cost premium, I think I'll be staying with an ICE as long as I can.
		
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yeah my Frag Jag should be good for another 7 or 8 years hopefully


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			yeah my Frag Jag should be good for another 7 or 8 years hopefully
		
Click to expand...

But are you...


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			They are premium priced at the mo

If you take the current “ Car of the year” the Vauxhall Corsa the basic E version is £10k more expensive than the petrol version, £16k to £26k not including optional extras, although you will save in running costs, no road tax, no congestion charge etc. It is unlikely you will recoup that extra cost over the life of the vehicle, say 7 years, although it does come with an 8 year battery warranty.

The other thing not yet mentioned is used car values, the battery will need replacing after 8/9 years and this won’t be cheap

So you might be looking at near 100 % depreciation over this time, whereas most vehicles would depreciate by around 80%
		
Click to expand...

*Electric car battery technology*
EV batteries undergo cycles of 'discharge' that occur when driving and 'charge' when the car's plugged in. Repeating this process over time affects the amount of charge the battery can hold. This decreases the range and time needed between each journey to charge. Most manufacturers have a five to eight-year warranty on their battery. However, the current prediction is that an electric car battery will last from 10 – 20 years before they need to be replaced.

https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-...acturers have a five,they need to be replaced.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



*Electric car battery technology*
EV batteries undergo cycles of 'discharge' that occur when driving and 'charge' when the car's plugged in. Repeating this process over time affects the amount of charge the battery can hold. This decreases the range and time needed between each journey to charge. Most manufacturers have a five to eight-year warranty on their battery. However, the current prediction is that an electric car battery will last from 10 – 20 years before they need to be replaced.
		
Click to expand...

Must show that to my mate; his Mitsubishi had battery issues after 5 years.


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2020)

Makes a 9 year old electric car a pretty risky 2nd hand buy..


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Makes a 9 year old electric car a pretty risky 2nd hand buy..
		
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You'd check the 'health' of the battery before you buy it.
Easy on a Nissan Leaf...
As the range decreases, the bars decrease. This pic shows full health (12 bars)


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2020)

OK, turn it around. How do you sell a 9 year old car with a slightly dodgy battery?
Got to be almost worthless.?


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			OK, turn it around. How do you sell a 9 year old car with a slightly dodgy battery?
Got to be almost worthless.?
		
Click to expand...

Depends what the rest of the car is like.
A replacement battery pack is under £4k so the price will reflect that.
It's the same with anything, if you don't look after something, you will loose out.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			They are premium priced at the mo

If you take the current “ Car of the year” the Vauxhall Corsa the basic E version is £10k more expensive than the petrol version, £16k to £26k not including optional extras, although you will save in running costs,* no road tax, no congestion charge etc*. It is unlikely you will recoup that extra cost over the life of the vehicle, say 7 years, although it does come with an 8 year battery warranty.
		
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Just as they changed the car tax system when too many people were buying the low CO2  tax rate cars, they will change the tax rate to include leccy  motors, just as the congestion charge will include them, because obviously leccy cars don't take up space on the roads or cause wear and tear on them


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## spongebob59 (Nov 14, 2020)

the big Johnson green speech is now happening next week: 

- a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 (but 2035 for hybrids)

- more support for nuclear, carbon capture & storage, hydrogen, wind power, insulation etc 

via @FT
https://t.co/F7mWSDvACg


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

So December 2029 record sale of new cars? With used ex lease cars in 2033 becoming worth more and 2034 hybrids become record sells

Unless hydrogen takes off ofc


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## USER1999 (Nov 14, 2020)

Why buy an EV when you can lease it? Buying cars is so old hat now.
A leased Nissan Leaf is pretty cheap, say 250 a month. Given the charging cost v petrol, zero tax, zero congestion, zero ULEZ, next to no servicing. What's not to like. Especially as a second car run around.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Why buy an EV when you can lease it? Buying cars is so old hat now.
A leased Nissan Leaf is pretty cheap, say 250 a month. Given the charging cost v petrol, zero tax, zero congestion, zero ULEZ, next to no servicing. What's not to like. Especially as a second car run around.
		
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For so many people lease is a dirty word.

It's a good way of testing the market aswell as if you lease it for say 4 years and it is then worthless it's not your problem


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## BiMGuy (Nov 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			OK, turn it around. How do you sell a 9 year old car with a slightly dodgy battery?
Got to be almost worthless.?
		
Click to expand...

At least there is a way of telling. How many 9 year old cars are sold with a slightly dodgy engine that only becomes apparent after someone has purchased it. 

There are Prius taxis running around with intergalactic miles still on perfectly usable original batteries. Battery tech is evolving rapidly with ever more investment being plumped in to development.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 14, 2020)

If they are going to ban the sale of new petrol/diesel cars from 2030 now  as is rumoured, what about motorbikes, vans, and lorries?


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## CliveW (Nov 15, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If they are going to ban the sale of new petrol/diesel cars from 2030 now  as is rumoured, what about motorbikes, vans, and lorries?
		
Click to expand...

Agricultural machines, construction machines, Military, marine, aviation etc.???


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Agricultural machines, construction machines, Military, marine, aviation etc.???
		
Click to expand...

I have no plans to buy a plane or a tank but...






and


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Agricultural machines, construction machines, Military, marine, aviation etc.???
		
Click to expand...

Gas boiler bans and switching to electric boilers, heat pumps etc will have more effect on the environment.

Once ofc we have clean energy to supply them. However it is a lot easier to switch everyone to electric and then switch the supply to green than the other way.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Gas boiler bans and *switching to electric boilers*, heat pumps etc will have more effect on the environment.

Once ofc we have clean energy to supply them. However it is a lot easier to switch everyone to electric and then switch the supply to green than the other way.
		
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I’m not so sure about Electric boilers, They pull in the region of 50Amp (so are expensive to run) and a lot of peoples electrical installations could not handle that extra load. 
The trend seems to be going the other way, we have two contracts for a housing association in East London where we are taking out the economy 7 storage heaters (newish Dimplex quantum’s!) and they are installing a new boiler house and wet systems into the flats.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Gas boiler bans and switching to electric boilers, heat pumps etc will have more effect on the environment.

Once ofc we have clean energy to supply them. *However it is a lot easier to switch everyone to electric and then switch the supply to green than the other way.*

Click to expand...

Why is it?  Maybe part of the reluctance to switch to electric may be that most people can see through the myth that electric cars don't pollute when the electricity that powers them is as dirty as the petrol that ICEs use.  If the electricity involved was already green, that objection wouldn't exist.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m not so sure about Electric boilers, They pull in the region of 50Amp (so are expensive to run) and a lot of peoples electrical installations could not handle that extra load.
The trend seems to be going the other way, we have two contracts for a housing association in East London where we are taking out the economy 7 storage heaters (newish Dimplex quantum’s!) and they are installing a new boiler house and wet systems into the flats.
		
Click to expand...

Is it not shortly going to be the law that new houses have to have air heat boilers, not sure of the precise name but I'm sure you will know what I mean? They look like air con units you see on the continent. Is it those you are talking about?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why is it?  Maybe part of the reluctance to switch to electric may be that most people can see through the myth that electric cars don't pollute when the electricity that powers them is as dirty as the petrol that ICEs use.  If the electricity involved was already green, that objection wouldn't exist.
		
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The UK is already planning to switch energy to cleaner supply. It's a two pronged attack. 

Even if it is as dirty now it won't be once the switch happens. 

By 2030 just how many new power sources will be ready? Talks of micro nuclear plants in the pipeline to get the grid more green.

https://www.energylivenews.com/2020/01/27/rolls-royce-plans-mini-nuclear-reactors-for-uk-by-2029/

The ban is on new cars only . I'm sure there will still be people driving 15 year old cars in 2045. Whilst the power plants pop up more and then they can make their decision.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it not shortly going to be the law that new houses have to have air heat boilers, not sure of the precise name but I'm sure you will know what I mean? They look like air con units you see on the continent. Is it those you are talking about?
		
Click to expand...

Heat pump air source I think 

Wife's cousin's house has one on side .. no gas supply .. all heating via it

I love the idea of binning of gas completely and having electric for the lot


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why is it?  Maybe part of the reluctance to switch to electric may be that most people can see through* the myth that electric cars don't pollute when the electricity that powers them is as dirty as the petrol that ICEs use.*  If the electricity involved was already green, that objection wouldn't exist.
		
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How about people who charge their cars from their solar panels?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it not shortly going to be the law that new houses have to have air heat boilers, not sure of the precise name but I'm sure you will know what I mean? They look like air con units you see on the continent. Is it those you are talking about?
		
Click to expand...

Air source heat pump, and their cousin the Ground source heat pump work by extracting heat from the air/ground they seem very clever but I have no idea how efficient they are or expensive to install. Kevin Mcloud is always talking about them on Grand Designs. The only experience I have had with them is a job we did in Enfield where they bored a 200M deep hole and filled it with a heating coil to extract heat from the ground! Massive multi million pound job but it did supply about 4 tower blocks. (Our involvement was small!😄)
The Electric boilers I was referring to are this sort of thing....
https://www.electriccombiboilerscompany.com/electric-combi-boilers/

We normally only install them where gas is not an option.


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## USER1999 (Nov 15, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How about people who charge their cars from their solar panels?
		
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There is nowhere near enough sunshine in the UK through most (if not all) of the year to charge a car. It's barely enough to charge an LED floodlight, unless your solar set up is measured in acres.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 15, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			There is nowhere near enough sunshine in the UK through most (if not all) of the year to charge a car. It's barely enough to charge an LED floodlight, unless your solar set up is measured in acres.
		
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It's ok, we wont need to grow crops any more


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 15, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How about people who charge their cars from their solar panels?
		
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Given that most people will use their cars during the day & charge them overnight, do you reckon there's enough moonlight to make that viable? 

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/132/can-solar-panels-charge-electric-car


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given that most people will use their cars during the day & charge them overnight, do you reckon there's enough moonlight to make that viable? 

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/132/can-solar-panels-charge-electric-car

Click to expand...

No, that's why you have batteries and charge them during the day while you're at work.
Then you charge your car overnight from the batteries.
If however your daily commute is 100s of miles every day, and you can't charge at work, don't buy an electric car.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 15, 2020)

bobmac said:



			No, that's why you have batteries and charge them during the day while you're at work.
Then you charge your car overnight from the batteries.
If however your daily commute is 100s of miles every day, and you can't charge at work, don't buy an electric car.
		
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So apart from the hideous expense of buying the electric car, you've then got to pay for the solar panels and find room in the house for the batteries in which you are storing the electricity to charge the car overnight.   I'm sticking with ICE for the foreseeable then.  

If we do ever get it all sorted then potentially we could vastly improve the current pollution levels, depending on exactly how much pollution manufacturing all the solar panels and batteries causes, but I'm not convinced that we will meet the quoted timescales.


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## bobmac (Nov 15, 2020)

I'm out


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 15, 2020)

Ultimately it’s an emerging technology which already fits well with some people, but it’s got a long way to go before it is the right move for everyone 
👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/electric-vehicles-debunking-myths/

A fair few myths busted

Interesting one I didn't know 

Myth 4: The grid cannot support an increase in electric vehicle charging

Fact: Estimates show that if we all switched our petrol or diesel vehicles to electric overnight, we would experience only a 10% increase in demand, fitting comfortably within the grid’s capacity.


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## larmen (Nov 16, 2020)

Someone mentioned that they might change the tax rules because they miss out on duty due to electric cars.
You have given ideas to the chancellor: https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-16...rishi-sunak-looks-to-fill-40-billion-tax-hole

Well, he probably had them anyway.


In other news, the EU is discussing the EU7 norm now which basically forces electric forward. As I understand it the current rules gives a maximum average value for a car in regards to how much it can pollute. The new rules say that number is teh maximum at any given time, accelerating, going uphill, towing a caravan, ... Car manufacturers saying it is ruling out combustion engines and want a fair discussion rather than just some values they know cannot be achieved.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 16, 2020)

larmen said:



			Someone mentioned that they might change the tax rules because they miss out on duty due to electric cars.
You have given ideas to the chancellor: https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-16...rishi-sunak-looks-to-fill-40-billion-tax-hole

Well, he probably had them anyway.


In other news, the EU is discussing the EU7 norm now which basically forces electric forward. As I understand it the current rules gives a maximum average value for a car in regards to how much it can pollute. The new rules say that number is teh maximum at any given time, accelerating, going uphill, towing a caravan, ... Car manufacturers saying it is ruling out combustion engines and want a fair discussion rather than just some values they know cannot be achieved.
		
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Tbh that sounds a darn sight fairer than increases to electric that would affect none drivers


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why is it?  Maybe part of the reluctance to switch to electric may be that most people can see through the myth that electric cars don't pollute when the electricity that powers them is as dirty as the petrol that ICEs use.  If the electricity involved was already green, that objection wouldn't exist.
		
Click to expand...

The electricity used to charge them does indeed pollute if derived from the wrong source. And we will never have 100% clean energy however its generated. That is just an unfortunate fact of life. 

However, EVs produce much less in the way of emissions locally. Which is the biggest benefit to the environment in my opinion.


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## Rooter (Nov 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/electric-vehicles-debunking-myths/

A fair few myths busted

Interesting one I didn't know

Myth 4: The grid cannot support an increase in electric vehicle charging

Fact: Estimates show that if we all switched our petrol or diesel vehicles to electric overnight, we would experience only a 10% increase in demand, fitting comfortably within the grid’s capacity.
		
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It can support it for sure, however, it will take us dangerously close to the maximum self-generation level, meaning to have resilience, we will need to import electricity from France, Ireland, Nordics etc.

The UK has a limit today of producing around 75GW, use peaks historically of late have been circa 60GW. This kind of effects what I do for work, so know a bit about it... having less than 10% spare capacity is not a good thing in simple terms.


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## larmen (Nov 18, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			The electricity used to charge them does indeed pollute if derived from the wrong source. And we will never have 100% clean energy however its generated. That is just an unfortunate fact of life.

However, EVs produce much less in the way of emissions locally. Which is the biggest benefit to the environment in my opinion.
		
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Combustion engines are never clean. Electric engines can be and will be more and more green over time.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 18, 2020)

Did anyone else see Dispatches on channel 4 this week? Even using youtube for 20 mins each day over a week equate to a 175 mile drive in the car.
Personally I dont think that leccy generation as well as it's use are as green as they try to say.


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## larmen (Nov 18, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Did anyone else see Dispatches on channel 4 this week? Even using youtube for 20 mins each day over a week equate to a 175 mile drive in the car.
Personally I dont think that leccy generation as well as it's use are as green as they try to say.
		
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An hour of computer uses as much as 2 1/2 hours of driving? Did they calculate the electricity for my laptop only or for all of Google’s servers lumped in?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			An hour of computer uses as much as 2 1/2 hours of driving? Did they calculate the electricity for my laptop only or for all of Google’s servers lumped in?
		
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all of it.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 18, 2020)

EV’s on the up at work massively. Too many Tesla’s to count, three polestars, Audi Etron, some ghastly MG, couple of leafs and Zoe’s, two e2008’s and a mini electric. Plus plenty on order. On my shift alone there’s a further four on order.


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## fundy (Nov 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			EV’s on the up at work massively. Too many Tesla’s to count, three polestars, Audi Etron, some ghastly MG, couple of leafs and Zoe’s, two e2008’s and a mini electric. Plus plenty on order. On my shift alone there’s a further four on order.
		
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what makes the MG ghastly?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			EV’s on the up at work massively. Too many Tesla’s to count, three polestars, Audi Etron, some ghastly MG, couple of leafs and Zoe’s, two e2008’s and a mini electric. Plus plenty on order. On my shift alone there’s a further four on order.
		
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Are these all company cars or are any private?


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## Ssshank (Nov 18, 2020)

Doubt you'll have a choice in the near distant future.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 18, 2020)

fundy said:



			what makes the MG ghastly?
		
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The colour and wheels. Not a fan of any EV SUV at the minute. It’s like they don’t know what to do with them now there’s no exhaust. A tastefully designed rear diffuser wouldn’t go amiss. Kia e-Niro is an example.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2020)

Home charging when you live on an urban Victorian or Edwardian street is going to be fun.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are these all company cars or are any private?
		
Click to expand...

Many are privately “owned” probably pcp. The etron, the e2008’s and  one leaf and both polestars are on the salary sacrifice. Half the Tesla’s are owned. You can distinguish them by the branded number plate. 
The EV’s I know on order are also on salary sacrifice. There’s free charging at work which is an incentive. 8 charging bays with more on the way next year.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Home charging when you live on an urban Victorian or Edwardian street is going to be fun.
		
Click to expand...

Do keep up😉. See post 89.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do keep up😉. See post 89.
		
Click to expand...

A current Tesla 3 battery weighs 480kg. That is not something you can just pick up and swap, pick up and charge in your house like a trolley battery. I get your idea but if a Tesla one weighs that much, and they are way out in front in terms of battery tech, then we need another leap somewhere for your method to work.

There is an awful lot of hopes, wishes, reliance on tech evolving for this entire move towards electric cars. It is equivalent to Field of Dreams, 'Say it and it will happen', or is it close to Melchett shouting louder and louder until everyone does what he says? (that anaology is not aimed at you incidentally)


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A current Tesla 3 battery weighs 480kg. That is not something you can just pick up and swap, pick up and charge in your house like a trolley battery. I get your idea but if a Tesla one weighs that much, and they are way out in front in terms of battery tech, then we need another leap somewhere for your method to work.

There is an awful lot of hopes, wishes, reliance on tech evolving for this entire move towards electric cars. It is equivalent to Field of Dreams, 'Say it and it will happen', or is it close to Melchett shouting louder and louder until everyone does what he says? (that anaology is not aimed at you incidentally)
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate what the present situation is , that battery size and technology is a long way off being portable. But I believe that such is the rate of progress with technology, and the demands of the situation, that the drive for a solution will be immense.
As we've seen with Covid ( not saying it is as important, wouldn't presume to)
when  ircumstances ask science  to "hurry up", then normal progress changes.
I remember the first mobile phones. A handset like a home handset in one hand, and the battery like a double sized brick being carried in the other.

I can see why people may doubt we will get to what I think will be possible. However, we will( or at my age maybe you will😀) see if it transpires.
What I cannot see is those ,as SILH and I see living in certain accommodations , being in a position to run a pure electric car until something similar to what I've described is the case.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I appreciate what the present situation is , that battery size and technology is a long way off being portable. But I believe that such is the rate of progress with technology, and the demands of the situation, that the drive for a solution will be immense.
As we've seen with Covid ( not saying it is as important, wouldn't presume to)
when  ircumstances ask science  to "hurry up", then normal progress changes.
I remember the first mobile phones. A handset like a home handset in one hand, and the battery like a double sized brick being carried in the other.

I can see why people may doubt we will get to what I think will be possible. However, we will( or at my age maybe you will😀) see if it transpires.
What I cannot see is those ,as SILH and I see living in certain accommodations , being in a position to run a pure electric car until something similar to what I've described is the case.
		
Click to expand...

 At times it's hard enough getting parked outside my house...though we are very fortunate as we are one of only a small handful of houses in our road that has off-street parking - and there are 45 houses in our road.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 19, 2020)

The solution will be multifaceted, and I imagine won't look too different to how we refule now. 

Not everyone will be excpected to charge their car up at home. 

Battery and charging tech is advancing rapidly. So, it won't be too long until you can visit a charging station like you do now a petrol station and fill up in a similar time. 

Then there could be replaceable batteries. Drive in, battery gets swapped for a fully charged one, drive out. Just like changing a drill battery. 

Then further into the future, induction loops are a possibility. 

Imagine where we would be now if the first people to buy cars didn't, because there were no petrol stations!


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## CliveW (Nov 19, 2020)

As most car journeys involve only one person, perhaps we need to look at smaller, lighter cars which take up less space on roads and car parks and are more efficient.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2020)

Are chargers currently universal or are they different? Is it like Apple and Android chargers?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are chargers currently universal or are they different? Is it like Apple and Android chargers?
		
Click to expand...

My mate sent his Jaguar back because they used a different charger.
Was last year but don’t know if they have sorted it out.


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are chargers currently universal or are they different? Is it like Apple and Android chargers?
		
Click to expand...

Surely they would have to be universal.?
You couldn't, feasibly,  have even 2 or 3 different charging connectors  - you'd run out of juice driving round to find "your" flavour.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are chargers currently universal or are they different? Is it like Apple and Android chargers?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and no. You can have a universal point fitted that all cars can plug into and then the adaptors plug into car 

Much like iPhone and Android all the input is a plug isn't it..


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 20, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Surely they would have to be universal.?
You couldn't, feasibly,  have even 2 or 3 different charging connectors  - you'd run out of juice driving round to find "your" flavour.
		
Click to expand...

You would think so wouldn't you but watch this video (around the 18 mins mark)


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2020)

drive4show said:



			You would think so wouldn't you but watch this video (around the 18 mins mark)







Click to expand...

Just watched the whole thing......work to be done methinks.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 20, 2020)

drive4show said:



			You would think so wouldn't you but watch this video (around the 18 mins mark)







Click to expand...

Yes this is more or less why my mate took his back.
Short journeys fantastic .
Anything else a joke.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 20, 2020)

Had a nice go of a BMW i3 today, really impressed with it. First time I’ve ever driven an electric car so nothing to compare it to, but the handling and performance was excellent. Inside was very comfortable for a small car, I even sat in the back and found it roomy enough, the clever suicide doors make it easy to get in and out of. Boot space was poor though, no chance of getting a set of clubs in, or even a “big shop”!
Got 2 years left on my XC40 lease so when it’s up I think I will definitely be going leccy.


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## larmen (Nov 20, 2020)

Has anyone looked into eScooters yet? The moped kind, not the electrified version of the kids toy.
I interviewed for a position 12 miles from here and not on anything I can take a train to and I did look at a lot of them in the last few days. Looks like that apart from storage that seems to be the best solution if some of the commute is in rush hour in town.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 20, 2020)

Delivering a VW e-Up ( best said with a broad Yorkshire accent) on Monday direct from the vehicle transporter depot to a dealership 18 miles away.

Praying it has sufficient charge in it as the nearest charging point is 6 miles away.

Could be interesting


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## Pathetic Shark (Nov 21, 2020)




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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 23, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Delivering a VW e-Up ( best said with a broad Yorkshire accent) on Monday direct from the vehicle transporter depot to a dealership 18 miles away.

Praying it has sufficient charge in it as the nearest charging point is 6 miles away.

Could be interesting
		
Click to expand...

It was fine , had 50 miles left so not a problem
However my 2nd job a new electric mini had 4 miles on the clock when I got it from the main dealer, they have only slow chargers, so spent an hour getting enough in it so I could then take it to a rapid charger.

Sorted eventually but what a faff and 1 3/4 hours behind schedule 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2020)

Have just ordered an e Corsa 

£800 down

£275 a month 4 year lease 

Arrives in few weeks 

211 mile range


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Have just ordered an e Corsa 

£800 down

£275 a month 4 year lease 

Arrives in few weeks 

211 mile range
		
Click to expand...

My lass swapped her golf for the new corsa, petrol mind but I have been stealing it if it’s at the front of the drive as she has nowhere to go anyway. 
Nice car and not your typical offering of Vauxhall of old. It gets lots of compliments on its new looks. 

Its changed its language to Spanish though twice, easily rectified.  Got a sweary phone call one morning as apparently I changed the language on purpose and she didn’t no how fast she was going as it was in kilometres.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			My lass swapped her golf for the new corsa, petrol mind but I have been stealing it if it’s at the front of the drive as she has nowhere to go anyway.
Nice car and not your typical offering of Vauxhall of old. It gets lots of compliments on its new looks.

Its changed its language to Spanish though twice, easily rectified.  Got a sweary phone call one morning as apparently I changed the language on purpose and she didn’t no how fast she was going as it was in kilometres.
		
Click to expand...

My Mrs is the same ... Doesn't know how anything works and always my fault 

Car looks amazing tbh I was surprised 

Can't wait for it to arrive 

Save £20 a month on the cost compared to my PCP and electric becomes £20 a month .. breaking even.. saves £100 pm in petrol


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 26, 2020)

Driving an electric Vauxhall Vivaro van tomorrow 

That’ll be interesting 🤔


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## OnTour (Nov 27, 2020)

Miles per years allowance? or unlimited miles ?  I love lekky but still can't get my head around paying £275 a month for any car unless your doing 20k a year + and have some sort of BIK



pauljames87 said:



			Have just ordered an e Corsa

£800 down

£275 a month 4 year lease

Arrives in few weeks

211 mile range
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2020)

OnTour said:



			Miles per years allowance? or unlimited miles ?  I love lekky but still can't get my head around paying £275 a month for any car unless your doing 20k a year + and have some sort of BIK
		
Click to expand...

12k mile allowance 

£275 a month but I pay £295 on my current PCP which balloon payment is 12,500. The MIL is paying that and taking ownership of that car as she wants a bigger car. Not suitable for us now. Cost of this lease 13,500.. however that £20 less I pay per month is what my electric cost will be on my electric charging tariff . My monthly commuting costs goes from £120 to £20  over 4 years almost £5k which is prob would the car im selling would be worth by then 

I also own a 4 year old seat Alhambra that is staying as the family car . That's paid for outright in April , that's what I was using for work as was more economical than the other one so that goes from 3 tanks every 2 months to a tank every 2 

Obviously the electric car gets nightly top ups off my house 

Also if Boris trys to force congestion charge onto the north circular in London it adds £15 per day to my commute where as until Xmas 2025 electric cars are congestion charge except. Just incase


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## USER1999 (Nov 27, 2020)

I was driving to work today in my Z4. The orange petrol light is on, saying 56 mile range left, so I need to fill it up.

For most small electric cars, this would be effectively half full, and yet I feel the need to fill up with petrol.


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I was driving to work today in my Z4. The orange petrol light is on, saying 56 mile range left, so I need to fill it up.

For most small electric cars, this would be effectively half full, and yet I feel the need to fill up with petrol.
		
Click to expand...

But.....you can fill up your electric car at home, so it wouldn't be half full, you can't do that with your Z4


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## USER1999 (Nov 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			But.....you can fill up your electric car at home, so it wouldn't be half full, you can't do that with your Z4
		
Click to expand...

For sure, but if it was only half charged, then it probably wouldn't need charging, as relatively, it is half charged. Where as my Z4 feels nearly empty, but has the same range.


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			For sure, but if it was only half charged, then it probably wouldn't need charging, as relatively, it is half charged. Where as my Z4 feels nearly empty, but has the same range.
		
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on how long your journey is.
Even if you do run out of electricity, help is on its way


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## Bdill93 (Nov 27, 2020)

Yes - but not yet.

Love the Tesla looks and styling, just not happy with the range they can get to unless you go for a top of the range model. 

Just brought a brand new Mercedes CLA (collected Wednesday) so im not in the market for 5 years now! Hopefully by then I can go electric!


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## Dibby (Nov 27, 2020)

I struggle to see electric as the way forward with current battery technology. How replacing internal combustion which can be fueled from empty to the brim in a matter of minutes, which a technology that has to be charged overnight is seen as an upgrade baffles me.

Hopefully some clean technology comes along that allows the same speed of refueling, perhaps batteries that work off a different checmical reaction and you just fill them with the chemicals needed from a pump, that kind of thing.

I know you can get fast chargers, I know you charge them overnight, but what about the unforeseen instances like you've been driving all day then in the evening a child gets stranded somewhere due to train cancellation, your Mrs goes into labour, the family pet has an urgent issue and needs to go to the emergency vet etc... - do you just wait an hour to top the battery up, or tell them to hold on whilst we nip out to a fast charger and give it a 30 min blast?


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## DCB (Nov 27, 2020)

Dibby said:



			I struggle to see electric as the way forward with current battery technology. How replacing internal combustion which can be fueled from empty to the brim in a matter of minutes, which a technology that has to be charged overnight is seen as an upgrade baffles me.

Hopefully some clean technology comes along that allows the same speed of refueling, perhaps batteries that work off a different checmical reaction and you just fill them with the chemicals needed from a pump, that kind of thing.

I know you can get fast chargers, I know you charge them overnight, but what about the unforeseen instances like you've been driving all day then in the evening a child gets stranded somewhere due to train cancellation, your Mrs goes into labour, the family pet has an urgent issue and needs to go to the emergency vet etc... - do you just wait an hour to top the battery up, or tell them to hold on whilst we nip out to a fast charger and give it a 30 min blast?
		
Click to expand...

Never mind cars, what are we going to do to heat our homes when we cant fit gas or oil fired boilers .....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			For sure, but if it was only half charged, then it probably wouldn't need charging, as relatively, it is half charged. Where as my Z4 feels nearly empty, but has the same range.
		
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All the cars with that small range are mainly city cars 

In the city you get more range per charge where are cars it's the other way round. 

Just reminds me of Johnny English taking Mick out of the electric BMW he raced that it would run out of charged .. he then forgot to fill up and broke down...


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## Doodle (Nov 27, 2020)

In a word, No.
There are way too many drawbacks & unless there is a massive leap forward in technology then there is no chance we will stop selling petrol or diesel cars by 2030.
An electric car may work for some as a city car, but to my mind that's as good as it gets.
For an electric car to be a viable option for me, it would have to have the range of a petrol car & be able to be charged in the same time frame as it would take to fill up with petrol / diesel.
I am also dubious about the green credentials.
To actually manufacture the cars uses huge resources & the batteries use metals & minerals which are mined by dubious methods.
Then there is the question of being able to safely / economically & environmentally recycle the batteries.
Given this county's appalling record of delivering large infrastructure projects on time & on budget, I have zero confidence of our ability in install enough charging points.
Also I have doubts that there will be enough capacity within the national grid to cope with large scale demand.
In short, it's an ill thought out policy, they have jumped the gun & announced a policy when the technology is in it's infancy & not real world ready.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2020)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...e-greener-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-8hb5m0dm7


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2020)

Doodle said:



			In a word, No.
There are way too many drawbacks & unless there is a massive leap forward in technology then there is no chance we will stop selling petrol or diesel cars by 2030.
An electric car may work for some as a city car, but to my mind that's as good as it gets.
For an electric car to be a viable option for me, it would have to have the range of a petrol car & be able to be charged in the same time frame as it would take to fill up with petrol / diesel.
I am also dubious about the green credentials.
To actually manufacture the cars uses huge resources & the batteries use metals & minerals which are mined by dubious methods.
Then there is the question of being able to safely / economically & environmentally recycle the batteries.
Given this county's appalling record of delivering large infrastructure projects on time & on budget, I have zero confidence of our ability in install enough charging points.
Also I have doubts that there will be enough capacity within the national grid to cope with large scale demand.
In short, it's an ill thought out policy, they have jumped the gun & announced a policy when the technology is in it's infancy & not real world ready.
		
Click to expand...

People get far to bogged down on 2030 stop selling ice cars 

Stop selling new ones 

2029 they will still be sold until 

Then how long do second hand cars last 20 years at least? So 2040 you will still be able to pick one up

Hybrid ban is 2035 .. more cars coming with hyrbid tech that you still fill up so that pushes the date back even further 

Plenty of time for electric to have the range and charging speed


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## williamalex1 (Nov 27, 2020)

DCB said:



			Never mind cars, what are we going to do to heat our homes when we cant fit gas or oil fired boilers .....
		
Click to expand...

Thermal bore drill holes


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## williamalex1 (Nov 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I guess it depends on how long your journey is.
Even if you do run out of electricity, help is on its way

View attachment 33744

Click to expand...

Buy a longer cable it'll only costs a few bob


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## USER1999 (Nov 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			All the cars with that small range are mainly city cars

In the city you get more range per charge where are cars it's the other way round.

Just reminds me of Johnny English taking Mick out of the electric BMW he raced that it would run out of charged .. he then forgot to fill up and broke down...
		
Click to expand...

My comment was less about actual range, and more about relativity, and how things are perceived.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Also if Boris trys to force congestion charge onto the north circular in London it adds £15 per day to my commute where as until Xmas 2025 electric cars are congestion charge except. Just incase[/QUOTE
Dont you find it ironic that electric cars are "congestion charge free" when the last time I studied physics, an electric car had similar mass and volume as an ICE car so still contributes to the "congestion" of London..
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2020)

Not really. It's the same as VED being based on emissions so my car is free . Just encouraging people to switch.


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## Sweep (Nov 27, 2020)

I was a big fan of Tesla - until yesterday. I have a Model 3 and as a car it is fantastic and I mean really fantastic. As we know, Tesla’s come with all sorts of tech including 360 degree cameras for all that Auto-Pilot stuff and radar etc. When I first bought the car 2 months ago one of the cameras in the wing indicator didn’t work. You do everything and I mean everything via the app, so I used it to book a service call. A couple of weeks later a really nice chap came out, fixed the issue, gave me lots of tips and advice and it all worked perfectly. Brilliant!
Since then I have been getting constant warnings on the screen saying that the door pillar cameras are blinded or blocked. Then the warnings disappear and then they are back again. When I check the cameras they are clean, no condensation or fogging (they are behind glass).
As a last resort I booked another service call and was delighted that it was arranged for Monday. Brilliant! Until I got a phone call from Tesla. A lady was telling me that they don’t think it’s a fault, because it’s likely these particular cameras won’t work in recent weather conditions. As a result, they were cancelling the appointment. She went onto explain that they needed specifics of journeys times / dates / mileage etc I had made of over 40 mins as it was likely this system wouldn’t work at this time of year on shorter journeys. I asked when was this mentioned before I gave them £56k and made it clear I wasn’t too happy. I asked her to give me the details of how I could make a complaint so she put me on to the engineer. The very same chap that came out the first time. Not so accommodating this time sadly. He insisted that unless I can give them the info so they can check humidity they are not interested and even if I did they probably wouldn’t consider it a fault anyway.

Call me old fashioned but I just want everything on the car to work. If it doesn’t I am happy to let the manufacturer fix it. I am very disappointed they don’t want to.

To be honest, this has soured the whole thing for me. Until yesterday I was telling everyone how great the car was. Now I can’t even recommend it. I have asked on some Tesla forums and worryingly this particular issue is common and Tesla customer service generally doesn’t sound too impressive. Interestingly most who comment seem to accept this but don’t seem to want to hear or say anything bad about the brand. Some even say it’s my fault for not trawling through forums before I purchased as it’s common knowledge on there. Most seem to think we should cut Tesla some slack because their products are cutting edge. In other words they might not work all the time because they are so great.

Apologies for the long post but back on topic, I would still highly recommend electric and even though as a car the Tesla Model 3 is amazing, I would say stay well clear. Some of the tech doesn’t seem to work all the time and their customer service is utterly dreadful.


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2020)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

Oops


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

murphthemog said:



https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

Oops
		
Click to expand...

Shows how forward thinking you need to check the apps.. zap map is very good. Tells you comments on the charger from other users

Tells you which ones are working or not.

They also tell you what type of charger it is.. any costs ... Etc so basically someone's bought a car without s full understanding of how it works


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)




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## Dibby (Nov 28, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I was a big fan of Tesla - until yesterday. I have a Model 3 and as a car it is fantastic and I mean really fantastic. As we know, Tesla’s come with all sorts of tech including 360 degree cameras for all that Auto-Pilot stuff and radar etc. When I first bought the car 2 months ago one of the cameras in the wing indicator didn’t work. You do everything and I mean everything via the app, so I used it to book a service call. A couple of weeks later a really nice chap came out, fixed the issue, gave me lots of tips and advice and it all worked perfectly. Brilliant!
Since then I have been getting constant warnings on the screen saying that the door pillar cameras are blinded or blocked. Then the warnings disappear and then they are back again. When I check the cameras they are clean, no condensation or fogging (they are behind glass).
As a last resort I booked another service call and was delighted that it was arranged for Monday. Brilliant! Until I got a phone call from Tesla. A lady was telling me that they don’t think it’s a fault, because it’s likely these particular cameras won’t work in recent weather conditions. As a result, they were cancelling the appointment. She went onto explain that they needed specifics of journeys times / dates / mileage etc I had made of over 40 mins as it was likely this system wouldn’t work at this time of year on shorter journeys. I asked when was this mentioned before I gave them £56k and made it clear I wasn’t too happy. I asked her to give me the details of how I could make a complaint so she put me on to the engineer. The very same chap that came out the first time. Not so accommodating this time sadly. He insisted that unless I can give them the info so they can check humidity they are not interested and even if I did they probably wouldn’t consider it a fault anyway.

Call me old fashioned but I just want everything on the car to work. If it doesn’t I am happy to let the manufacturer fix it. I am very disappointed they don’t want to.

To be honest, this has soured the whole thing for me. Until yesterday I was telling everyone how great the car was. Now I can’t even recommend it. I have asked on some Tesla forums and worryingly this particular issue is common and Tesla customer service generally doesn’t sound too impressive. Interestingly most who comment seem to accept this but don’t seem to want to hear or say anything bad about the brand. Some even say it’s my fault for not trawling through forums before I purchased as it’s common knowledge on there. Most seem to think we should cut Tesla some slack because their products are cutting edge. In other words they might not work all the time because they are so great.

Apologies for the long post but back on topic, I would still highly recommend electric and even though as a car the Tesla Model 3 is amazing, I would say stay well clear. Some of the tech doesn’t seem to work all the time and their customer service is utterly dreadful.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like the car is not fit for purpose, if it doesn't work in relatively normal weather conditions. It's not like we are in the middle of a blizzard or other extreme wetaher event right now.

I'd ask them to put in writing what they told you - that standard functionality of the car won't work in normal UK weather conditions. I'd assume they would be reluctant to do so, but if you get that I think you would have a strong chance of being able to reject the car as not fit for purpose, equally if they claim it should work, then you should be able to force them to fix it. They can't have it both ways its either unfit for purpose or faulty, let them choose.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Shows how forward thinking you need to check the apps.. zap map is very good. Tells you comments on the charger from other users

Tells you which ones are working or not.

They also tell you what type of charger it is.. any costs ... Etc so basically someone's bought a car without s full understanding of how it works
		
Click to expand...

That's a headache though, a worry you don't need. I can't get my head around chargers not being universal. Surely mfrs should have agreed or even forced to agree on a universal format.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Driving an electric Vauxhall Vivaro van tomorrow

That’ll be interesting 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Was it interesting?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That's a headache though, a worry you don't need. I can't get my head around chargers not being universal. Surely mfrs should have agreed or even forced to agree on a universal format.
		
Click to expand...

My car has two charge ports.. the type 2 and that CCS one 

Basically the type 2 is what you have at home and most places for a slower charge 7k

The CCS if you look is the same charger with extra bit on bottom so goes in both ports at once and that connects to the car 

Majority of cars have them now so u get two in one on the car


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Was it interesting?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he's still sat at Watford Gap charging it up...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That's a headache though, a worry you don't need. I can't get my head around chargers not being universal. Surely mfrs should have agreed or even forced to agree on a universal format.
		
Click to expand...





Here you go .. so the top is type 2... The two combined are CCS chargers 

So if your at home you use type 2 . Out and about type 2 unless you find a CCS which is faster so chargers quicker 

My local Tesco's has free to use type 2 for 90 mins


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## Dibby (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My car has two charge ports.. the type 2 and that CCS one

Basically the type 2 is what you have at home and most places for a slower charge 7k

The CCS if you look is the same charger with extra bit on bottom so goes in both ports at once and that connects to the car

Majority of cars have them now so u get two in one on the car
		
Click to expand...

manufacturing cars with multiple components that do the same thing doesn't sound very green. Just another example that this tech needs to mature a lot more and develop standards.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My car has two charge ports.. the type 2 and that CCS one

Basically the type 2 is what you have at home and most places for a slower charge 7k

The CCS if you look is the same charger with extra bit on bottom so goes in both ports at once and that connects to the car

Majority of cars have them now so u get two in one on the car
		
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So this covers all options then? You can rock up to any charger and you are good to go?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Dibby said:



			manufacturing cars with multiple components that do the same thing doesn't sound very green. Just another example that this tech needs to mature a lot more and develop standards.
		
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I fully agree. However on the type 2 and ccs difference id say it's no real issue as for example the leaf has both ports side by side and my car combines them so you can slow charge at home and fast charge on motorway etc as it needs more input pins

But I agree. My golf club has type 1 chargers which No1 uses anymore


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So this covers all options then? You can rock up to any charger and you are good to go?
		
Click to expand...

Unless someones already using it..


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So this covers all options then? You can rock up to any charger and you are good to go?
		
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The majority of the chargers in the UK out there are type 2 and ccs ..

Rarely do you get anything else for public use that doesn't have a type 2 option as that's become the norm


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The majority of the chargers in the UK out there are type 2 and ccs ..

Rarely do you get anything else for public use that doesn't have a type 2 option as that's become the norm
		
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..just proving myself slightly wrong

So here no type 2 at all but both are fast chargers and I think all full electrics support CCS . But I'm sure one won't

However I know leaf ... Corsa e .. e208 . Etc use CCS and type 2

The hyrbids won't just not bother charging and use their petrol engine


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Was it interesting?
		
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Well it’s like this
Picked it up from Coventry and it said 177 miles range
Drove to Aylesbury which is 65 miles and it said 60 miles range.
I have to deliver it to Chertsey for 9 Am Monday with 80% charge

First option was to charge at Morrison’s Aylesbury, being used
Second option was to use the rapid charger at the shops round the corner, not working.

Gave up and charged it this morning at the holiday inn the other side of town.

Monday I’ll have to leave about 6 am , identified 2 rapid chargers in Bagshot that should be free at that time, 6 miles to the delivery location 

Faf faf faf


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

Seems to me, certainly at the moment, that unless your journeys are short enough that you can get home again without needing to top up owning an electric car just doesn't stack up. The stress of either not being able to find a charging station or finding one thats being used and there's a queue or that it's not working negates any saving in my book.
The range doesn't seem to very accurate unless you're pootling around town - any sort of speed seems to wreck the range figure.
And when you do find somewhere to charge it you're stuck there for an hour before you get any meaningful distance from the charge.
I think they've got a hell of a lot more work to do than they think they have if they want us all driving EVs.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Seems to me, certainly at the moment, that unless your journeys are short enough that you can get home again without needing to top up owning an electric car just doesn't stack up. The stress of either not being able to find a charging station or finding one thats being used and there's a queue or that it's not working negates any saving in my book.
The range doesn't seem to very accurate unless you're pootling around town - any sort of speed seems to wreck the range figure.
And when you do find somewhere to charge it you're stuck there for an hour before you get any meaningful distance from the charge.
I think they've got a hell of a lot more work to do than they think they have if they want us all driving EVs.
		
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The work is coming tho..it's the very early stages right now

The cars are best under 50mph so motorways drain it faster 

Round town there much better so can go further so ironically the small journey people will be fine and those are the highest polluters anyways with trips where the engine isn't warm etc etc 

For example though if I decide I'm going Tesco and take the car.. I can plug in get free 90 mins whilst I shop there and it tops it up a bit


I will say though if I didn't have off street parking I 100% wouldn't consider one.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The work is coming tho..it's the very early stages right now

The cars are best under 50mph so motorways drain it faster

Round town there much better so can go further so ironically the small journey people will be fine and those are the highest polluters anyways with trips where the engine isn't warm etc etc

For example though if I decide I'm going Tesco and take the car.. I can plug in get free 90 mins whilst I shop there and it tops it up a bit


I will say though if I didn't have off street parking I 100% wouldn't consider one.
		
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Yeah, I ca see its getting there but they have a long way to go.
All depends on your circumstances   what works and what doesn't.
Getting around the issue of changing on the street is going to be the biggest challenge.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

I'm not ready for an electric car yet but I do have shares in 2 EV manufacturers as I believe they are the future.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Yeah, I ca see its getting there but they have a long way to go.
All depends on your circumstances   what works and what doesn't.
Getting around the issue of changing on the street is going to be the biggest challenge.
		
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Charging at work would be great and in lamposts 

All car parks should have to provide them. To all bays 

Thing is there is so much more time they people realise 

We have 9 years left until new car ban 

14 until the hyrbid ban 

But only new .. still can buy your 10 year old cars in 2039 and so on which will last ages 

And in 2029 how will electric cars look? 9 years ago what was the range compared to now? So much time


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well it’s like this
Picked it up from Coventry and it said 177 miles range
Drove to Aylesbury which is 65 miles and it said 60 miles range.
I have to deliver it to Chertsey for 9 Am Monday with 80% charge

First option was to charge at Morrison’s Aylesbury, being used
Second option was to use the rapid charger at the shops round the corner, not working.

Gave up and charged it this morning at the holiday inn the other side of town.

Monday I’ll have to leave about 6 am , identified 2 rapid chargers in Bagshot that should be free at that time, 6 miles to the delivery location

Faf faf faf
		
Click to expand...

Obviously thrashing it, then.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

Just read a news bite about a couple that took 9 hours to drive from Kent to Bournemouth in an electric porsche due to issues finding charging points 😳


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Obviously thrashing it, then.
		
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Ha , no far from it
Steady 65 down the M40 
The range massively improves if you drive under 50


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just read a news bite about a couple that took 9 hours to drive from Kent to Bournemouth in an electric porsche due to issues finding charging points 😳
		
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More than 800,000 British motorists break down every year - because their vehicle runs out of fuel - Mirror Online


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just read a news bite about a couple that took 9 hours to drive from Kent to Bournemouth in an electric porsche due to issues finding charging points 😳
		
Click to expand...

Link in murph's post #203


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



More than 800,000 British motorists break down every year - because their vehicle runs out of fuel - Mirror Online

Click to expand...

And your point is?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And your point is?
		
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I think he was pointing out that 800'000 motorists broke down because the garages they were going to were fused/vandalised/run dry/ had their leads cut.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 28, 2020)

I do love how those so evangelical about their EV  fail to see that the "free" leccy they are getting to charge their car is paid by someone/everyone, and the more people that do buy into the EV way will bring about normal taxes for their EV that everyone else pays..


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



More than 800,000 British motorists break down every year - because their vehicle runs out of fuel - Mirror Online

Click to expand...

About 2%
According to the AA and RAC they have to rescue approximately 1000 EVs a year due to running out of charge..about 5%.
So you're more than twice as likely to run out of juice in your EV than you are petrol./Diesel


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



More than 800,000 British motorists break down every year - because their vehicle runs out of fuel - Mirror Online

Click to expand...

But your not comparing apples with apples, your comparing stupidity with lack of infrastructure.


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## CliveW (Nov 28, 2020)

Are you limited to how long you can keep your car plugged in to a public supply? For example, if it takes an hour to charge, can you park for over that time whilst you go about your business thus depriving someone else of the ability to use that charging point?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 33754
..just proving myself slightly wrong

So here no type 2 at all but both are fast chargers and I think all full electrics support CCS . But I'm sure one won't

However I know leaf ... Corsa e .. e208 . Etc use CCS and type 2

The hyrbids won't just not bother charging and use their petrol engine
		
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2 questions..... 

Is that saying that 1 charger has been broken for 6 days?

And how far does a kW typically get you?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I do love how those so evangelical about their EV  fail to see that the "free" leccy they are getting to charge their car is paid by someone/everyone, and the more people that do buy into the EV way will bring about normal taxes for their EV that everyone else pays..
		
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Don't think anyone thinks this free charge will last forever 

I will be charging from home and paying 

If I can get free top ups great 

Long term the taxes will level up in maybe 10-15 years but until then make hay when the sun shines


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Are you limited to how long you can keep your car plugged in to a public supply? For example, if it takes an hour to charge, can you park for over that time whilst you go about your business thus depriving someone else of the ability to use that charging point?
		
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You get charged for overstaying .. some are £10 fees for overstaying


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			2 questions.....

Is that saying that 1 charger has been broken for 6 days?

And how far does a kW typically get you?
		
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That's saying 6 days ago it was out of service when that person left a comment 

However not everyone leaves feedback 

Some systems report when the last charge was for example another one on this app said it was used 3 hours ago 

Onto your second question I'm not entirely sure how to answer fully. So my 50kw battery of which I've read 46 is available to use is 201 range 

More like 150 in winter I'm planning for 

By that theory of 150 .. I estimate 1kw is 3 miles .

Using a 7kw charger 1 hour gets you 27 miles online sites say but my workings is 21 for winter 

A 150kw fast charger in 30 mins will add 194 miles apparently so call that 150 as I think that's to do a full tank 

I'll send you the page 

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/vauxhall/2020/corsa-e


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's saying 6 days ago it was out of service when that person left a comment 

However not everyone leaves feedback 

Some systems report when the last charge was for example another one on this app said it was used 3 hours ago 

Onto your second question I'm not entirely sure how to answer fully. So my 50kw battery of which I've read 46 is available to use is 201 range 

More like 150 in winter I'm planning for 

By that theory of 150 .. I estimate 1kw is 3 miles .

Using a 7kw charger 1 hour gets you 27 miles online sites say but my workings is 21 for winter 

A 150kw fast charger in 30 mins will add 194 miles apparently so call that 150 as I think that's to do a full tank 

I'll send you the page 

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/vauxhall/2020/corsa-e

Click to expand...

Blimey does that mean it costs 39p for 3 miles of charge when using that charger? 
Definitely need to plan your journeys to use your home charger!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Blimey does that mean it costs 39p for 3 miles of charge when using that charger?
Definitely need to plan your journeys to use your home charger!
		
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Yes that's correct but your paying for the convenience of fast charge 

Much like motorway services fuel charges 

So my 50kw battery if flat would cost £19.50 to charge up at that charger 

At home during day would cost £7

At night would be roughly £4.50 from flat to full 

However if I charge every night and do my 50 miles a day only use cheap charge would cost me less than £1 a day 

Very much a forward planning device


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## Dibby (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



More than 800,000 British motorists break down every year - because their vehicle runs out of fuel - Mirror Online

Click to expand...

That can happen in any vehicle, the thing is what happens next? 

You call the AA/RAC or a mate and they turn up with a jerry can and in a couple of minutes you're sorted, versus an EV where your mate can't help at all, and even after the AA/RAC get there you have to wait 30-60 mins to have partial range back, which still leaves you potentially heading to a charger and hanging around depending on your destination.

If EVs are going to take off I see them using some kind of fuel cell that can be filled up like petrol can now, not with current battery tech for sure.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Dibby said:



			That can happen in any vehicle, the thing is what happens next?

You call the AA/RAC or a mate and they turn up with a jerry can and in a couple of minutes you're sorted, versus an EV where your mate can't help at all, and even after the AA/RAC get there you have to wait 30-60 mins to have partial range back, which still leaves you potentially heading to a charger and hanging around depending on your destination.

If EVs are going to take off I see them using some kind of fuel cell that can be filled up like petrol can now, not with current battery tech for sure.
		
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But again it's 10 years away before the decisions for many will start to be made 

So much will change in 10 years 

I'd say to the people buying that electric porche they struggled to charge etc it doesn't sound like it actually fits their lifestyle ..

Most people I know who run electric cars and are happy have ice cars aswell as in the wife's car etc so their second car is cheaper to run but if they need to drive the full length of the country they can and not run to the papers


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## williamalex1 (Nov 28, 2020)

I just wonder why it's necessary to have charging points at carparks that only allow you to stay a maximum of 2 hours. 
  Also why are they needed at your local train station carpark when the car is going to be just sitting there all day, surely having only travelled a short distance to get there .


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			But again it's 10 years away before the decisions for many will start to be made

So much will change in 10 years
		
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And so much wont change in 10 years. To be able to supply enough EV's and have the infrastructure to cope you would need to have it fully up to speed in 7 years and that just isn't going to happen.
Electric powered cars may be the way forward, but supplied by cables in the street or anywhere isn't the answer, hydrogen fuel cell is the only answer.
When you consider it took longer than 10 years to lay out the tv cable network, and that still isn't really complete. The Government isn't going to have the money to do the infrastructure and anyone who thinks the private sector is going to do it out of kindness for us all is on another planet.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 28, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And so much wont change in 10 years. To be able to supply enough EV's and have the infrastructure to cope you would need to have it fully up to speed in 7 years and that just isn't going to happen.
Electric powered cars may be the way forward, but supplied by cables in the street or anywhere isn't the answer, hydrogen fuel cell is the only answer.
When you consider it took longer than 10 years to lay out the tv cable network, and that still isn't really complete. The Government isn't going to have the money to do the infrastructure and anyone who thinks the private sector is going to do it out of kindness for us all is on another planet.
		
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Most street lights already have a constant 240 volt supply there, so it should only need a suitable charging transformer outlet fitted to lamp posts. Not nearly as much work involved as was with the TV cable network set up.


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Most street lights already have a constant 240 volt supply there, so it should only need a suitable charging transformer outlet fitted to lamp posts. Not nearly as much work involved as was with the TV cable network set up.
		
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Hmm, they might need much thicker cables, much thicker. An LED or HID Street light is what, 50W? If every lamp post needs to supply say 20kWh, that is a world of difference, and 20kWh won't charge that Porsche or Tesla any time soon.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Most street lights already have a constant 240 volt supply there, so it should only need a suitable charging transformer outlet fitted to lamp posts. Not nearly as much work involved as was with the TV cable network set up.
		
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I'm no electrician, but is the cable network to provide 1 light even 100 yards up to providing a charging point every 10 yards or less?


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## banjofred (Nov 28, 2020)

Electrify the roads.....passive charging. Then we can complain about getting cancer from the roads....


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## williamalex1 (Nov 28, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Hmm, they might need much thicker cables, much thicker. An LED or HID Street light is what, 50W? If every lamp post needs to supply say 20kWh, that is a world of difference, and 20kWh won't charge that Porsche or Tesla any time soon.
		
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The original street lighting lamps were sodium some halogen and up to 300 watts supply cables were 16mm2 if i remember correct. . Large enough to run  all the  extra xmas lights.


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## Sweep (Nov 28, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Are you limited to how long you can keep your car plugged in to a public supply? For example, if it takes an hour to charge, can you park for over that time whilst you go about your business thus depriving someone else of the ability to use that charging point?
		
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I understand with Tesla you can be charged if you leave it too long on one of their Superchargers when the site is more than 50% full. When charging is complete you get a message on your app. Usually Tesla charge cost by kw but some do charge cost on time.
It’s a good point and something which will need to be addressed as EVs become prevalent.
I am not sure if it’s the same with others, but again with Tesla I understand there is “charger etiquette” 😀. eg. Superchargers have 2 plugs each, but if both are used it slows down the charging rate, so if other chargers are available, use those instead of one being used.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm no electrician, but is the cable network to provide 1 light even 100 yards up to providing a charging point every 10 yards or less?
		
Click to expand...

 I'm a retire electrician but I think trickle or full charging would be feasible from street lighting circuits. Any experts ??
Edit - IN DAYLIGHT WHEN THE LIGHTS ARE NOT IN USE


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm a retire electrician but I think trickle or full charging would be feasible from street lighting circuits. Any experts ??
Edit - IN DAYLIGHT WHEN THE LIGHTS ARE NOT IN USE
		
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So all good if you work permanent nights then?  Because most people will use their cars during the day and want to charge them overnight whilst they're asleep.  Sorry mate, I don't necessarily see this working without one hell of an upgrade to the system.  Knowing how often we get glitches round here as it is, it will only get worse if everyone is charging cars.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			So all good if you work permanent nights then?  Because most people will use their cars during the day and want to charge them overnight whilst they're asleep.  Sorry mate, I don't necessarily see this working without one hell of an upgrade to the system.  Knowing how often we get glitches round here as it is, it will only get worse if everyone is charging cars.
		
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Some people may have drive quite a distance to their work place and the car will sits there all day and will need charging.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Some people may have drive quite a distance to their work place and the car will sits there all day and will need charging.
		
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There's something like 40 of us in our building, maximum of 9 but normal 8 places on the front, rest in the communal car park at the bottom or in spare places on the road.  It's privately owned and I really can't see the owners spotting for the number or chargers needed to make that work. 

Sorry mate, but I just don't think this has been properly thought through and I don't think I'm alone in that;

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2020/09/bill...k-buyers-still-think-2035-too-soon-to-switch/

"Extensive analysis by SMMT and Frost and Sullivan also shows that a full, zero emission-capable UK new car market will require 1.7 million public charge points by the end of the decade and 2.8 million by 2035. Given there are only some 19,314 on-street charge points today, the task is massive, needing 507 on-street chargers to be installed per day until 2035 at a cost of £16.7 billion."

Given the cost involved and the fact that the country is slowly disappearing financially up  creek without a paddle in an inflatable with a puncture (in fairness due to circumstances out of anybody's control) is this really achievable?  It's a great soundbite but I really don't think they realise the enormity of the task.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			There's something like 40 of us in our building, maximum of 9 but normal 8 places on the front, rest in the communal car park at the bottom or in spare places on the road.  It's privately owned and I really can't see the owners spotting for the number or chargers needed to make that work. 

sorry mate, but I just don't think this has been properly thought through and I don't think I'm alone in that;

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2020/09/bill...k-buyers-still-think-2035-too-soon-to-switch/

"Extensive analysis by SMMT and Frost and Sullivan also shows that a full, zero emission-capable UK new car market will require 1.7 million public charge points by the end of the decade and 2.8 million by 2035. Given there are only some 19,314 on-street charge points today, the task is massive, needing 507 on-street chargers to be installed per day until 2035 at a cost of £16.7 billion."

Given the cost involved and the fact that the country is slowly disappearing financially up  creek without a paddle in an inflatable with a puncture (in fairness due to circumstances out of anybody's control) is this really achievable?  It's a great soundbite but I really don't think they realise the enormity of the task.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree it's costing a fortune, and it has been rushed through 

We have to address climate change and this will help. 

I know you said about electric used being dirty but I was discussing today and apparently using gas to make electric is 98% effient and only 2% is lost in heat , where as ICE it's as low as 40% efficient with 60 of energy lost so much more efficent 

Also the 15 new mini nuclear pod power plants being built sounds amazing 

We may be throwing money at it but how many jobs does it create? Which brings money back in tax and boosts the economy with people able to spend 

However again I agree it's very quick. It needs to be planned well (which we don't do)


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree it's costing a fortune, and it has been rushed through

We have to address climate change and this will help.

I know you said about electric used being dirty but I was discussing today and apparently using gas to make electric is 98% effient and only 2% is lost in heat , where as ICE it's as low as 40% efficient with 60 of energy lost so much more efficent

Also the 15 new mini nuclear pod power plants being built sounds amazing

We may be throwing money at it but how many jobs does it create? Which brings money back in tax and boosts the economy with people able to spend

However again I agree it's very quick. It needs to be planned well (which we don't do)
		
Click to expand...

15 new mini nuclear power plants is going to create a lot of high level waste and the UK's nuclear reprocessing programmes are winding down, final reprocessing plant closes within 12 months at Sellafield with around 10 years to make safe(r) stored high level waste.

UK strategy of dealing with current stored waste and future waste is to dig a big hole and bury it underground but who wants that in their back yard?  Government seems keenest to bury it under the Lake District National Park probably due to the fact it is fairly isolated, low population (a long way from London...) and generally a poor region but the area was deemed to be geologically unsuitable many years ago although it appears they want to pursue this option again.

Thorium reactors are suggested as a cleaner alternative as it does not produce plutonium unlike conventional reactors but to my knowledge there are non online at present.

Lots of negatives to producing more electricity to cope with future increased demand.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

saving_par said:



			15 new mini nuclear power plants is going to create a lot of high level waste and the UK's nuclear reprocessing programmes are winding down, final reprocessing plant closes within 12 months at Sellafield with around 10 years to make safe(r) stored high level waste.

UK strategy of dealing with current stored waste and future waste is to dig a big hole and bury it underground but who wants that in their back yard?  Government seems keenest to bury it under the Lake District National Park probably due to the fact it is fairly isolated, low population (a long way from London...) and generally a poor region but the area was deemed to be geologically unsuitable many years ago although it appears they want to pursue this option again.

Thorium reactors are suggested as a cleaner alternative as it does not produce plutonium unlike conventional reactors but to my knowledge there are non online at present.

Lots of negatives to producing more electricity to cope with future increased demand.
		
Click to expand...

But again even if we all switched to electric tomorrow the grid say it would only increase demand by 10% which is well within their tolerance levels


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			But again even if we all switched to electric tomorrow the grid say it would only increase demand by 10% which is well within their tolerance levels
		
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Only 1 current Nuclear plant to be operating beyond 2030 which roughly 20% of UK's electricity production.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Only 1 current Nuclear plant to be operating beyond 2030 which roughly 20% of UK's electricity production.
		
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The 15 new mini power plants some will be online by thenhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51233444


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 28, 2020)

Maybe hydrogen powered cars are the way forward?


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## USER1999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Super capacitors.

You heard it here first.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Maybe hydrogen powered cars are the way forward?
		
Click to expand...

I am hoping that between now and the ban that we adopt both 

They work amazing but the storage is the dangerous part ATM 

That's why I'm leasing my electric not buying 

4 years 

Then assess the market .. hopefully improvements or hydrogen


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The 15 new mini power plants some will be online by thenhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51233444

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. New builds were approved by both Blair and Cameron governments but only Hinkley Point ever got off the ground.

Certainly up here Moorside next door to Sellafield was to be built by Toshiba and operational by 2024. Never broke ground before they pulled out from Nuclear builds all together and Chinese offer to step in was politely declined.

We certainly need to increase capacity to a creaking grid but until something is built and connected up I remain sceptical and bloody windmills are not the answer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Maybe, maybe not. New builds were approved by both Blair and Cameron governments but only Hinkley Point ever got off the ground.

Certainly up here Moorside next door to Sellafield was to be built by Toshiba and operational by 2024. Never broke ground before they pulled out from Nuclear builds all together and Chinese offer to step in was politely declined.

We certainly need to increase capacity to a creaking grid but until something is built and connected up I remain sceptical and bloody windmills are not the answer.
		
Click to expand...

Battier's on houses are available

Charge up at night use during day.. move demand


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## 2blue (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I am hoping that between now and the ban that we adopt both

They work amazing but the storage is the dangerous part ATM

That's why I'm leasing my electric not buying

4 years

Then assess the market .. hopefully improvements or hydrogen
		
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As I understand it Hydrogen is more viable for heavy-wagons etc & that's the way they'll be going.
We currently have a Social Services, Nissan enV200 Van adapted for a disability wheel-chair with a 7Kw charging point installed in the drive using off-peak over-night charging. mainly used by my wife who swears by the pre-heating facility for seats & cabin with vehicle securely locked......  big bonus in the winter, she says.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

2blue said:



			As I understand it Hydrogen is more viable for heavy-wagons etc & that's the way they'll be going.
We currently have a Social Services, Nissan enV200 Van adapted for a disability wheel-chair with a 7Kw charging point installed in the drive using off-peak over-night charging. mainly used by my wife who swears by the pre-heating facility for seats & cabin with vehicle securely locked......  big bonus in the winter, she says.
		
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Pre heating is 100% the thing you must do

Yes winter it's amazing gets the battery to a good temp so it's most efficient.. defrosts car .. means you don't use heater full blast off battery 

In summer you do to cool car so u don't blast air con 

But doing all this prolongs the life of your battery


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## Dibby (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree it's costing a fortune, and it has been rushed through

*We have to address climate change and this will help.*

I know you said about electric used being dirty but I was discussing today and apparently using gas to make electric is 98% effient and only 2% is lost in heat , where as ICE it's as low as 40% efficient with 60 of energy lost so much more efficent

Also the 15 new mini nuclear pod power plants being built sounds amazing

We may be throwing money at it but how many jobs does it create? Which brings money back in tax and boosts the economy with people able to spend

However again I agree it's very quick. It needs to be planned well (which we don't do)
		
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In my opinion electric cars get too much focus with this goal, why are we not paying as much attention to biofuels and synthetic alternaltives to fossil fuels that burn cleaner, and also capturing and or cleansing emissions. 

Even with current technology you can run an internal combustion engine on ethanol, it still produces CO2, but generally this is the same amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant that was grown to produce the ethanol. Find a way to distil it without producing CO2 (such as using solar to provide the heat), you have a much simpler solution to reducing emissions that is immediately available.

Imagine a capture technology that just requires a modification to the exhaust pipe of your vehicle, as opposed to completely scrapping ICE cars for electric.

I just feel we've jumped the gun picking a tech, rather than waiting to see what will be the best option. There is a risk the electric cars of today will go the same was as the steam cars of just over 100 years ago.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Dibby said:



			In my opinion electric cars get too much focus with this goal, why are we not paying as much attention to biofuels and synthetic alternaltives to fossil fuels that burn cleaner, and also capturing and or cleansing emissions.

Even with current technology you can run an internal combustion engine on ethanol, it still produces CO2, but generally this is the same amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant that was grown to produce the ethanol. Find a way to distil it without producing CO2 (such as using solar to provide the heat), you have a much simpler solution to reducing emissions that is immediately available.

Imagine a capture technology that just requires a modification to the exhaust pipe of your vehicle, as opposed to completely scrapping ICE cars for electric.

I just feel we've jumped the gun picking a tech, rather than waiting to see what will be the best option. There is a risk the electric cars of today will go the same was as the steam cars of just over 100 years ago.
		
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Which is exactly why I promote leasing electric cars not owning .. then if it falls on its face it's not your problem 

Same with battery issues .. if my car gets worse in 4 years oh well hand it back


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## BiMGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

Dibby said:



			In my opinion electric cars get too much focus with this goal, why are we not paying as much attention to biofuels and synthetic alternaltives to fossil fuels that burn cleaner, and also capturing and or cleansing emissions.

Even with current technology you can run an internal combustion engine on ethanol, it still produces CO2, but generally this is the same amount of CO2 absorbed by the plant that was grown to produce the ethanol. Find a way to distil it without producing CO2 (such as using solar to provide the heat), you have a much simpler solution to reducing emissions that is immediately available.

Imagine a capture technology that just requires a modification to the exhaust pipe of your vehicle, as opposed to completely scrapping ICE cars for electric.

I just feel we've jumped the gun picking a tech, rather than waiting to see what will be the best option. There is a risk the electric cars of today will go the same was as the steam cars of just over 100 years ago.
		
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How long should we wait? If there is no legislation then we'd just carry on as we are. 
Battery tech development will be important in the future and enable us to store excess energy. Which when applied to other areas such as buildings and homes could be a game changer. 

Electric powered cars have the advantage of not producing emissions at the point of use (not strictly true as there is still break and tyre dust to consider) and being quieter. Win win.


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## OnTour (Nov 29, 2020)

Pal you have your figures sorted and a use for it, I'd love to be doing 20k plus a year but at less than 4k even my leased battery ZOE had to go as pence per mile it didn't work for me over petrol. and the London charges are another saving again worth the investment not to pay the government to visit work :-(  

I'm waiting for the Chinese invasion of cheap EV's as they say the XIAOMI of the ev world is coming. 

64 plate VW UP with monthly £15 spend will stay for a while longer. 



pauljames87 said:



			12k mile allowance

£275 a month but I pay £295 on my current PCP which balloon payment is 12,500. The MIL is paying that and taking ownership of that car as she wants a bigger car. Not suitable for us now. Cost of this lease 13,500.. however that £20 less I pay per month is what my electric cost will be on my electric charging tariff . My monthly commuting costs goes from £120 to £20  over 4 years almost £5k which is prob would the car im selling would be worth by then

I also own a 4 year old seat Alhambra that is staying as the family car . That's paid for outright in April , that's what I was using for work as was more economical than the other one so that goes from 3 tanks every 2 months to a tank every 2

Obviously the electric car gets nightly top ups off my house

Also if Boris trys to force congestion charge onto the north circular in London it adds £15 per day to my commute where as until Xmas 2025 electric cars are congestion charge except. Just incase
		
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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

OnTour said:



			Pal you have your figures sorted and a use for it, I'd love to be doing 20k plus a year but at less than 4k even my leased battery ZOE had to go as pence per mile it didn't work for me over petrol. and the London charges are another saving again worth the investment not to pay the government to visit work :-( 

I'm waiting for the Chinese invasion of cheap EV's as they say the XIAOMI of the ev world is coming.

64 plate VW UP with monthly £15 spend will stay for a while longer.
		
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Yeah they defo don't suit everyone. If it was just me on my own I doubt I could have one as going golf sometimes would be further than the range 

But with it behind a family of 5 if I need to go far I take the alhambra and the wife can fit the 3 kids in the Corsa no problem

It same with my mate at work who has a leaf .. that's one his cars his other is litterally a Hyundai mini bus type thing. Slightly smaller than a van but holds his 3 kids with more space in back 

Him and his wife rotate the leaf for whoever's at work has the leaf

My wife (when she does return to work lol) will be back on the tube


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## Dibby (Nov 29, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			How long should we wait? If there is no legislation then we'd just carry on as we are.
Battery tech development will be important in the future and enable us to store excess energy. Which when applied to other areas such as buildings and homes could be a game changer.

Electric powered cars have the advantage of not producing emissions at the point of use (not strictly true as there is still break and tyre dust to consider) and being quieter. Win win.
		
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We should wait as long as needed before committing. Waiting doesn't mean not developing new technology, but if you mandate that ICE cars will be banned, you also mandate to stop developing ICE engines further and reduce your number of possible solutions.

Battery tech may or may not be important, depending on how we source future energy, and what other developments come. I'm all for pushing battery tech forward, just not for mandating such that this be the only solution, or that other options have less viability.

Looking at this with a cynical viewpoint, the legislation is really to protect businesses that have gone down this route, rather than to be green. If it was really about the environment why not mandate an acceptable level of emissions per vehicle that reduces annually, meaning any tech that can achieve it is viable, instead of mandating for or against certain techs. It would have immediate impact, set clear goals, and be open to all, if only that was the real aim.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Dibby said:



			We should wait as long as needed before committing. Waiting doesn't mean not developing new technology, but if you mandate that ICE cars will be banned, you also mandate to stop developing ICE engines further and reduce your number of possible solutions.

Battery tech may or may not be important, depending on how we source future energy, and what other developments come. I'm all for pushing battery tech forward, just not for mandating such that this be the only solution, or that other options have less viability.

Looking at this with a cynical viewpoint, the legislation is really to protect businesses that have gone down this route, rather than to be green. If it was really about the environment why not mandate an acceptable level of emissions per vehicle that reduces annually, meaning any tech that can achieve it is viable, instead of mandating for or against certain techs. It would have immediate impact, set clear goals, and be open to all, if only that was the real aim.
		
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You can go a step further and say we are removing power from the oil rich Arab nations long term


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			How long should we wait? If there is no legislation then we'd just carry on as we are.
Battery tech development will be important in the future and enable us to store excess energy. Which when applied to other areas such as buildings and homes could be a game changer.

Electric powered cars have the advantage of not producing emissions at the point of use (not strictly true as there is still break and tyre dust to consider) and being quieter. Win win.
		
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Electric cars have the option in all then to use engine braking to reclaim waste energy and recharge battery 

Saves your brakes away so does reduce that emissions slightly


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## BiMGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

Dibby said:



			We should wait as long as needed before committing. Waiting doesn't mean not developing new technology, but if you mandate that ICE cars will be banned, you also mandate to stop developing ICE engines further and reduce your number of possible solutions.

Battery tech may or may not be important, depending on how we source future energy, and what other developments come. I'm all for pushing battery tech forward, just not for mandating such that this be the only solution, or that other options have less viability.

Looking at this with a cynical viewpoint, the legislation is really to protect businesses that have gone down this route, rather than to be green. If it was really about the environment why not mandate an acceptable level of emissions per vehicle that reduces annually, meaning any tech that can achieve it is viable, instead of mandating for or against certain techs. It would have immediate impact, set clear goals, and be open to all, if only that was the real aim.
		
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As far as I am aware, no one has mandated the use of electrical battery powered vehicles. Just the sale of petrol and diesel Ice.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			As far as I am aware, no one has mandated the use of electrical battery powered vehicles. Just the sale of petrol and diesel Ice.
		
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And the point always seemed to be brushed over is that it's new cars 

My Alhambra is now 4 years old 

I could buy a 4 year old car in 2033
A 15 year old one in 2044

Then hybrids add another 5 years 

So it's a long way until you "have" to buy one


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You can go a step further and say we are removing power from the oil rich Arab nations long term
		
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Isn't that what using up the oil reserves is doing anyway?
And by  going to purely leccy cars, aren't we putting a greater control into the fewer number of countries who actually have the litium reserves we want to mine?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My Alhambra is now 4 years old
		
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If you're trying to be eco consious, why then do you need a minibus to transport 2 adults and 3 kids about?
I would accept your new EV purchase more if your other car was a focus/golf size (which will seat 2 adults and 3 kids in safely ) but when you have a minibus that in all honesty you don't really need oyu sort of lose my understanding


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If you're trying to be eco consious, why then do you need a minibus to transport 2 adults and 3 kids about?
I would accept your new EV purchase more if your other car was a focus/golf size (which will seat 2 adults and 3 kids in safely ) but when you have a minibus that in all honesty you don't really need oyu sort of lose my understanding

Click to expand...

Actually no you can't

Have you looked into car seat law? Only 5 cars on the market fit 3 child seats accross back row

Alhambra
Sharon
C4 grand
Galaxy
S max

All massive

Plus look at the size of the buggy I have to transport




This takes up half the boot when folded so leaving the rest to carry out other baby stuff

Also if we go out with our bubble can go in 1 car not two which is very eco friendly

When my 3 yo hits 12 or 135 cm I can get a normal car again


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2020)

All this talk of buying or leasing EVs and how far they'll go etc etc is all going to be irrelevant by 2030 as nobody will have a car - well just call up a driverless one and tell it where we want to go......wont we?


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Actually no you can't

Have you looked into car seat law? Only 5 cars on the market fit 3 child seats accross back row

Alhambra
Sharon
C4 grand
Galaxy
S max

All massive

Plus look at the size of the buggy I have to transport

View attachment 33767


This takes up half the boot when folded so leaving the rest to carry out other baby stuff

Also if we go out with our bubble can go in 1 car not two which is very eco friendly

When my 3 yo hits 12 or 135 cm I can get a normal car again
		
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Ok, fair enough
But how did we do this in the past?(not aimed at you, but at us all)


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			All this talk of buying or leasing EVs and how far they'll go etc etc is all going to be irrelevant by 2030 as nobody will have a car - well just call up a driverless one and tell it where we want to go......wont we?
		
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After we've given them every bit of personal data about ourselves so they can control what we eat, buy, wear and  breath then yes


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ok, fair enough
But how did we do this in the past?(not aimed at you, but at us all)
		
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The law was different is the problem

When I grew up we didn't have seat belts in the back (legal)

Then when my parents got cars was just seat belts

Then booster seats were law which were just like a hard cushion

Now I have these


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Actually no you can't

Have you looked into car seat law? Only 5 cars on the market fit 3 child seats accross back row

Alhambra
Sharon
C4 grand
Galaxy
S max

All massive

Plus look at the size of the buggy I have to transport

View attachment 33767


This takes up half the boot when folded so leaving the rest to carry out other baby stuff

Also if we go out with our bubble can go in 1 car not two which is very eco friendly

When my 3 yo hits 12 or 135 cm I can get a normal car again
		
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My son has this problem and you are correct.
With all the stuff you need now you need a boot and a half.

What would the weight of all that do to an EV range anyone know ?

As most tests I have seen it’s just the driver in it and it still won’t do what the manufacturer says!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

@Bunkermagnet




One in each car, if we didn't have twins we would have kept the Honda hrv due to boot size and fits the family and then I'd of got an ev car 

How cars look now


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My son has this problem and you are correct.
With all the stuff you need now you need a boot and a half.

What would the weight of all that do to an EV range anyone know ?

As most tests I have seen it’s just the driver in it and it still won’t do what the manufacturer says!
		
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It won't be an issue, we as a family use the alhambra

The 12000 miles is my commuting to work and golf 

If I went on a golf trip id take alhambra and leave the wife the ev which because small journeys the range would increase as it's great on small trips so the weight would balance it out

But normally your correct it does decrease the range


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## Dibby (Nov 29, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			As far as I am aware, no one has mandated the use of electrical battery powered vehicles. Just the sale of petrol and diesel Ice.
		
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So effectively mandated against any improvements to ICE, as their is no incentive to come up with some fantastic tech that cleans exhaust emissions if the engines will be illegal anyway.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

There is also the matter of a finite source of fossil fuels, oil is either going to run out some day or become progressively more expensive to source to a point where it becomes prohibitive.

Therefore we have to find alternatives, electric is easy as we already have numerous methods of producing it and the storage of it is improving.

Hydrogen is a good potential alternative
We move a Hyundai Nexo Hydrogen vehicle around , often it is transported, but driven for short loans, obviously there is no refuelling infrastructure yet for this with only 13 refuelling stations in the uk, and it’s also about the same price as petrol , but quick to fill up and a very good range


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2020)

Presumably the existing fuel network could accommodate hydrogen as well though? 13 becomes 1,000's in no time. Easier than trying to install chargers all over. Say goodbye to range anxiety at the same time. 

@PhilTheFragger , what are they like to drive?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably the existing fuel network could accommodate hydrogen as well though? 13 becomes 1,000's in no time. Easier than trying to install chargers all over. Say goodbye to range anxiety at the same time.

@PhilTheFragger , what are they like to drive?
		
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I’ve not yet driven the Nexo, but on the drivers notes it says “ Performance vehicle drive with extreme care”
So I suspect it doesn’t hang about

I’m delivering an electric Vivaro van (see previous posts) tomorrow, then an Electric Hyundai Kona , now there’s a leccy car with a decent range, 300 miles 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’ve not yet driven the Nexo, but on the drivers notes it says “ Performance vehicle drive with extreme care”
So I suspect it doesn’t hang about

I’m delivering an electric Vivaro van (see previous posts) tomorrow, then an Electric Hyundai Kona , now there’s a leccy car with a decent range, 300 miles 👍
		
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Could you deliver the Hyundai Kona to my house no questions asked?

That's the car I wanted but the buggers sold out lol


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Could you deliver the Hyundai Kona to my house no questions asked?

That's the car I wanted but the buggers sold out lol
		
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Nice cars, very popular, Cost ya big time


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Nice cars, very popular, Cost ya big time 

Click to expand...

They are lovely 

They wanted £335 a month for the 64kw one which was perfect .. sold out. 6 month wait then jumped to 470 pm as the new stock would be fuller price.. they had bought loads and leased off at good price 

So took advantage of similar offer on the Corsa which looks nice just not same range


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## larmen (Nov 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Presumably the existing fuel network could accommodate hydrogen as well though? 13 becomes 1,000's in no time. Easier than trying to install chargers all over. Say goodbye to range anxiety at the same time.

@PhilTheFragger , what are they like to drive?
		
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I would think really hard about living anywhere within half a mile of where people are refuelling the amount of hydrogen needed.
petrol is fine, it doesn’t actually ignite that fast or explodes as much as hydrogen. And there are idiots driving and refuelling cars out there.


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## larmen (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They are lovely

They wanted £335 a month for the 64kw one which was perfect .. sold out. 6 month wait then jumped to 470 pm as the new stock would be fuller price.. they had bought loads and leased off at good price

So took advantage of similar offer on the Corsa which looks nice just not same range
		
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The new new Touscon has a full electric version, I think. I just need a call from Camelot before release ...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



@Bunkermagnet

View attachment 33769


One in each car, if we didn't have twins we would have kept the Honda hrv due to boot size and fits the family and then I'd of got an ev car 

How cars look now

View attachment 33770

Click to expand...

It would have been a whole lot cheaper and easier if you'd just had a snip 😂


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			It would have been a whole lot cheaper and easier if you'd just had a snip 😂
		
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Mrs didn't want just one kid

Dw it's booked 😃 (after being cancelled once cuz the Dr had to self isolate)


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They are lovely

They wanted £335 a month for the 64kw one which was perfect .. sold out. 6 month wait then jumped to 470 pm as the new stock would be fuller price.. they had bought loads and leased off at good price

So took advantage of similar offer on the Corsa which looks nice just not same range
		
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I was very impressed with the E Corsa 
Great handling, nippy and surprisingly roomy


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was very impressed with the E Corsa
Great handling, nippy and surprisingly roomy
		
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Really? Excellent .. I bought blind tbh which I've done last 3 cars 

Gonna be using it mainly for work so long as I got my android auto for podcasts and can get me to North London and back to east London I'm good


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Really? Excellent .. I bought blind tbh which I've done last 3 cars

Gonna be using it mainly for work so long as I got my android auto for podcasts and can get me to North London and back to east London I'm good
		
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Well it was car of the year 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well it was car of the year 👍
		
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Lol didn't even notice tbh

Looked at the price .. saw the range and size of car now thought that will do for what I need 

The tank can hold everything else

Shame the wife isn't as impressed with my impulsive nature 🤣


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

🙄


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			🙄
		
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Was suppose to be April but I decided brexit was gonna hinder my plans so decided Thursday morning to do it 😃


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## BiMGuy (Nov 29, 2020)

Dibby said:



			So effectively mandated against any improvements to ICE, as their is no incentive to come up with some fantastic tech that cleans exhaust emissions if the engines will be illegal anyway.
		
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There are also emissions regulations that are getting ever more stringent. So yes, manufacturers will still have to continue to improve ICE. Not producing exhaust emissions in the first place has go to be easier than developing a completely new, and probably quite expensive technology to clean emissions.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Was suppose to be April but I decided brexit was gonna hinder my plans so decided Thursday morning to do it 😃
		
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Brexit shmexit 😂 
My life experience has taught me to not wait for the right time as it never comes.   go for what you want . Enjoy 👍


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## DannyOT (Nov 29, 2020)

Our second car will definitely be electric once my ageing fiesta needs replacing. Even factoring in 20% battery capacity loss over 10 years, range will never be a problem. I can't ever forsee needing to charge it away from home. 

We live close to Manchester City centre and I only commute 10 miles round trip (if I ever get back to the office). The rest of the time the car is used for dropping my daughter off for nursery or general errands. I don't think it it ever does more than 20 miles in one journey. 

I agree that EVs alone are not the solution and my desire for one is selfish rather than due to the environmental factors.


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## adam6177 (Nov 29, 2020)

If manufacturers are making petrol/diesel cars up to 2030 then my assumption is that petrol stations will still be fueling us for at least another 10 years after that ..... So I have another 20 years or so of normal driving .

Maybe by that point renewable energy cars might actually be decent in range and price to be a consideration, but for the foreseeable future I'll be sticking with old school.


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			If manufacturers are making petrol/diesel cars up to 2030 then my assumption is that petrol stations will still be fueling us for at least another 10 years after that ..... So I have another 20 years or so of normal driving .

Maybe by that point renewable energy cars might actually be decent in range and price to be a consideration, but for the foreseeable future I'll be sticking with old school.
		
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In theory petrol stations will decline in number quite quickly from 2030 due to less demand.
Somewhere in the region of 3 million fewer ICE vehicles will be kn the roads each year - 2 million sales plus 1 million scrapped.
10 years will see virtually all ICEs off the road at that rate.
After 5 or 6 years it's going to get harder to find filling stations as they'll close due to less demand and that might make people switch sooner.
You'll also find peer pressure will speed things up.
Theory is a wonderful thing though..


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In theory petrol stations will decline in number quite quickly from 2030 due to less demand.
Somewhere in the region of 3 million fewer ICE vehicles will be kn the roads each year - 2 million sales plus 1 million scrapped.
10 years will see virtually all ICEs off the road at that rate.
After 5 or 6 years it's going to get harder to find filling stations as they'll close due to less demand and that might make people switch sooner.
You'll also find peer pressure will speed things up.
Theory is a wonderful thing though..
		
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I'm sure supermarkets will keep there's


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## adam6177 (Nov 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In theory petrol stations will decline in number quite quickly from 2030 due to less demand.
Somewhere in the region of 3 million fewer ICE vehicles will be kn the roads each year - 2 million sales plus 1 million scrapped.
10 years will see virtually all ICEs off the road at that rate.
After 5 or 6 years it's going to get harder to find filling stations as they'll close due to less demand and that might make people switch sooner.
You'll also find peer pressure will speed things up.
Theory is a wonderful thing though..
		
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Honestly, I think that's a ideological view...and I don't believe the demand will decline quickly at all. UNLESS they can make serious and drastic improvements to the infrastructure and costs of rechargeable vehicles..... Which I don't believe they will.

Whatever happens, the next 10 years of motoring will be fascinating for the direction it takes.... But my belief is that battery powered cars that you charge from cables outside property is not the future and is not the answer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			Honestly, I think that's a ideological view...and I don't believe the demand will decline quickly at all. UNLESS they can make serious and drastic improvements to the infrastructure and costs of rechargeable vehicles..... Which I don't believe they will.

Whatever happens, the next 10 years of motoring will be fascinating for the direction it takes.... But my belief is that battery powered cars that you charge from cables outside property is not the future and is not the answer.
		
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You would be surprised

During proper lock down as a key worker I saw the roads dead 

A lot of petrol stations closed due to lack of buisness and only re opened afters


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			Honestly, I think that's a ideological view...and I don't believe the demand will decline quickly at all. UNLESS they can make serious and drastic improvements to the infrastructure and costs of rechargeable vehicles..... Which I don't believe they will.

Whatever happens, the next 10 years of motoring will be fascinating for the direction it takes.... But my belief is that battery powered cars that you charge from cables outside property is not the future and is not the answer.
		
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I tend to agree...the charging on the street issue, I feel, is vastly underrated. 
But if they do solve it then that scenario could happen.


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## adam6177 (Nov 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I tend to agree...the charging on the street issue, I feel, is vastly underrated.
But if they do solve it then that scenario could happen.
		
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Agree with you on that, but I believe the future lies with a system that recharges the vehicles propulsion by movement or breaking itself.  

Depending on if you are open to the ideas of conspiracy theorists..... Allegedly the technology already exists and could be put into production, but the devastation caused to the oil/petrol industry and stock markets would be so vast that they need to phase it in over years and years to allow the world to adapt before it gets removed.

Undoubtedly the future does lay in not removing resources from the ground though.  But I will miss the sound of a V6/V8 car!


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## USER1999 (Nov 29, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			Agree with you on that, but I believe the future lies with a system that recharges the vehicles propulsion by movement or breaking itself. 

Depending on if you are open to the ideas of conspiracy theorists..... Allegedly the technology already exists and could be put into production, but the devastation caused to the oil/petrol industry and stock markets would be so vast that they need to phase it in over years and years to allow the world to adapt before it gets removed.

Undoubtedly the future does lay in not removing resources from the ground though.  But I will miss the sound of a V6/V8 car!
		
Click to expand...

I think you are trying to invent a perpetual motion machine, which just cannot exist.

I am with you on V8s though. I love the noise. Luckily, I have one, and don't dismiss the howl of an on song straight 6, at 7000 rpm. It's a joy, and surprisingly, yep, got one of those too.


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## larmen (Nov 29, 2020)

Whatever limitations there are now, we probably don’t have them in 15 years time.

When I started at university about 25 years ago our inorganic chemistry professor told us that the production of a solar cell takes more energy than the cell will deliver in its lifetime. But they kept researching (not his group, they in general) and now people run their homes with with them. Batteries are following.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

larmen said:



			Whatever limitations there are now, we probably don’t have them in 15 years time.


When I started at university about 25 years ago our inorganic chemistry professor told us that the production of a solar cell takes more energy than the cell will deliver in its lifetime. But they kept researching (not his group, they in general) and now people run their homes with with them. Batteries are following.
		
Click to expand...

I love the idea of solar panels on roof. Battery to store the energy and then charge the car with it


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## USER1999 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I love the idea of solar panels on roof. Battery to store the energy and then charge the car with it
		
Click to expand...

Seriously, solar in the UK would be lucky to charge an AA battery for 2/3 of the year, unless you have acres of garden devoted to it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Seriously, solar in the UK would be lucky to charge an AA battery for 2/3 of the year, unless you have acres of garden devoted to it.
		
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Not at all. It's a massive myth that it needs to be sunny for solar to work.

https://www.lowcarbonenergy.co/news/do-solar-panels-still-work-on-cloudy-days/


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## USER1999 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not at all. It's a massive myth that it needs to be sunny for solar to work.

https://www.lowcarbonenergy.co/news/do-solar-panels-still-work-on-cloudy-days/

Click to expand...

At work I have assessed numerous solar powered security lights. They don't work. Fine in the Mediterranean, rubbish here. If a small solar panel on a light won't charge a small battery, a big one on a roof has zero chance of charging a car. Ever. Not going to happen.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			At work I have assessed numerous solar powered security lights. They don't work. Fine in the Mediterranean, rubbish here. If a small solar panel on a light won't charge a small battery, a big one on a roof has zero chance of charging a car. Ever. Not going to happen.
		
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They charge the battery to top up car later

It's being used now by many people. It works.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They charge the battery to top up car later

It's being used now by many people. It works.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting.
Does anyone live near Braintree?

(582) GRIDSERVE's Electric Forecourt WORLD EXCLUSIVE | 100% Independent, 100% Electric - YouTube


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## pauljames87 (Dec 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Interesting.
Does anyone live near Braintree?

(582) GRIDSERVE's Electric Forecourt WORLD EXCLUSIVE | 100% Independent, 100% Electric - YouTube

Click to expand...

48 miles but if we visited the wife's cousin would be useful


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## pauljames87 (Dec 3, 2020)

@bobmac problem I find is those loudest against electric cars won't even give that video the time of day 

Just finished it

Fascinating


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



@bobmac problem I find is those loudest against electric cars won't even give that video the time of day

Just finished it

Fascinating
		
Click to expand...

And 100 more to come within 5 years, plus smaller ''stations''
350 kw chargers full of green renewable energy 

All it needs is a driving range


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## pauljames87 (Dec 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And 100 more to come within 5 years, plus smaller ''stations''
350 kw chargers full of green renewable energy 

All it needs is a driving range
		
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If they put in a driving range just yes lol

Would be great if they installed them not far away lol


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Interesting.
Does anyone live near Braintree?

(582) GRIDSERVE's Electric Forecourt WORLD EXCLUSIVE | 100% Independent, 100% Electric - YouTube

Click to expand...

Don’t live near it but at 24p a kWh I doubt I would bother unless desperate. Would “zap map” to one at 16p a kWh or ensure I’ve charged up at work for free or at home for 4.5p a kWh/10.4p kWh at night.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Don’t live near it but at 24p a kWh I doubt I would bother unless desperate. Would “zap map” to one at 16p a kWh or ensure I’ve charged up at work for free or at home for 4.5p a kWh/10.4p kWh at night.
		
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It's a fantastic price for on the road.. one near work is 39p a kw

If these took off and had them at service stations . Would be key


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



@bobmac problem I find is those loudest against electric cars won't even give that video the time of day

Just finished it

Fascinating
		
Click to expand...

That was indeed quite interesting and very impressive.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			That was indeed quite interesting and very impressive.
		
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Certainly one idea we need going forward to get the concept to take off.

Like he said mainly just get companies putting 2 charges in the car parks etc ...that is annoying with more and more people using them  2 is never going to be enough 


Well unless you employ 2 people


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## CliveW (Dec 4, 2020)

Over the past few weeks, we have had three major diversions which would have been extremely concerning if I had an electric car. One was an 85 mile diversion through the Highlands, last week a 40 mile diversion and this morning, the new Queensferry Crossing between Edinburgh and Fife (Which they claimed would never close) is closed again resulting in a 40 mile diversion and over one hour delays!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

CliveW said:



			Over the past few weeks, we have had three major diversions which would have been extremely concerning if I had an electric car. One was an 85 mile diversion through the Highlands, last week a 40 mile diversion and this morning, the new Queensferry Crossing between Edinburgh and Fife (Which they claimed would never close) is closed again resulting in a 40 mile diversion and over one hour delays!
		
Click to expand...

Not ideal at all 

But if the range of the cars became a minimum of 300 miles would that take away some of the worry?


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not ideal at all

But if the range of the cars became a minimum of 300 miles would that take away some of the worry?
		
Click to expand...

Not if you've got 50 miles charge left, you're 35 from home with a 55 mile diversion...


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## Dibby (Dec 4, 2020)

I was reading an interesting article about future automotive tech a few days ago. Apparently the consensus is that battery cars are great for up to 150 mile range. The concept is that although battery drive train efficiency is really high, it ignores the overall vehicle efficiency which is reduced by carrying round heavy batteries, whereas a less efficient engine in a vehicle of lower weight is more efficient as a whole vehicle. You then get into the rocket scientists problem of adding more fuel to be able to propel a payload, but then needing to add more fuel to be able to propel the weight of the fuel you added, therefore needing to add more fuel...
This is further compounded by the fact that energy density of batteries is already near theoretical limit, not just the practical limit. Unless of course we discover new elements to add to the periodic table. 

The other interesting point I took from the article, is that although it is true that approximately 80% of journeys are under 20 miles, it is also true that approximately 80% of the total miles driven in a car are in the 20% of journeys over 20 miles, so it's not as clear cut as to whether electric would suit.

The conclusion was that electric vehicles are likely to be a compliment to other types of propulsion, in the guise of city cars, but are not going to be a full scale solution of themselves.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not if you've got 50 miles charge left, you're 35 from home with a 55 mile diversion...

Click to expand...

If you have 300 range and set out on a trip it should cover and charge in breaks

We need to break the mold of filling up once a month until we on fumes

Plan ahead


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## CliveW (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If you have 300 range and set out on a trip it should cover and charge in breaks

We need to break the mold of filling up once a month until we on fumes

Plan ahead
		
Click to expand...

 There aren't many petrol stations, let alone electric charging points in the Highlands!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

CliveW said:



			There aren't many petrol stations, let alone electric charging points in the Highlands!
		
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300 mile range, home charger network is a start 

Things will change in future. There will be car with 500 mile range I'm sure and filling up at home what's not to love.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a fantastic price for on the road.. one near work is 39p a kw

If these took off and had them at service stations . Would be key
		
Click to expand...

Thinking about it your right, fantastic price considering they had to build that, the solar farm and the land not to mention future proofing and plenty of fast charging options which I assume are also for 24ppkw.

I just struggle to think when I’d need to use a service station unless I was planning a long journey or holiday and even then I have 10m granny cable.

Had a tethered Pod-Point fitted yesterday at home.

Still no car though


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Thinking about it your right, fantastic price considering they had to build that, the solar farm and the land not to mention future proofing and plenty of fast charging options which I assume are also for 24ppkw.

I just struggle to think when I’d need to use a service station unless I was planning a long journey or holiday and even then I have 10m granny cable.

Had a tethered Pod-Point fitted yesterday at home.

Still no car though

Click to expand...

My podpoint will be here the 21st December 

Car is due 18th December

Like you I don't think I'll use these stations, I'll use home charging and manage my journeys but If these became the norm for service stations I'd use them on long trips


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

Dibby said:



			I was reading an interesting article about future automotive tech a few days ago. Apparently the consensus is that battery cars are great for up to 150 mile range. The concept is that although battery drive train efficiency is really high, it ignores the overall vehicle efficiency which is reduced by carrying round heavy batteries, whereas a less efficient engine in a vehicle of lower weight is more efficient as a whole vehicle. You then get into the rocket scientists problem of adding more fuel to be able to propel a payload, but then needing to add more fuel to be able to propel the weight of the fuel you added, therefore needing to add more fuel...
This is further compounded by the fact that energy density of batteries is already near theoretical limit, not just the practical limit. Unless of course we discover new elements to add to the periodic table.

The other interesting point I took from the article, is that although it is true that approximately 80% of journeys are under 20 miles, it is also true that approximately 80% of the total miles driven in a car are in the 20% of journeys over 20 miles, so it's not as clear cut as to whether electric would suit.

The conclusion was that electric vehicles are likely to be a compliment to other types of propulsion, in the guise of city cars, but are not going to be a full scale solution of themselves.
		
Click to expand...

This is interesting .
Am interested in an EV but every test drive I see only has the driver in it.
I would like to see a real world test with four adults and four sets of clubs in the boot.
What would the weight of this do to the range.
It would not be 300mls any more.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is interesting .
Am interested in an EV but every test drive I see only has the driver in it.
I would like to see a real world test with four adults and four sets of clubs in the boot.
What would the weight of this do to the range.
It would not be 300mls any more.
		
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Sorry but what real world would get 4 sets of clubs in the boot? Most cars can't fit one with the driver left in the bag.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but what real world would get 4 sets of clubs in the boot? Most cars can't fit one with the driver left in the bag.
		
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Skoda Superb 😉, not tour bags to be fair but otherwise possible.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Skoda Superb 😉
		
Click to expand...

That's not the average car tho

My seat Alhambra would fit a fair few sets 

But average would be maybe 2 adults and 2 sets at a push 

Plus under covid you can't travel together 🤣


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's not the average car tho

My seat Alhambra would fit a fair few sets

But average would be maybe 2 adults and 2 sets at a push

Plus under covid you can't travel together 🤣
		
Click to expand...

You said real world car 😝.

I can fit 3 adults, bags and trolleys in my Superb, 4 adults and bags, no trolleys.


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## bobmac (Dec 4, 2020)

Would you want to be in a car with 4 adults for 6 hours without a break?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2020)

I think the point clubchamp is making is how is range affected by a fully loaded car? A family going on holiday, rammed so you can't see out the back window 😄. I see a lot of them heading north up the A1 in the summer months. What is the impact for them?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think the point clubchamp is making is how is range affected by a fully loaded car? A family going on holiday, rammed so you can't see out the back window 😄. I see a lot of them heading north up the A1 in the summer months. What is the impact for them?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-charging.html

Plenty of information out there if you know where to look..

Google


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/range-charging.html

Plenty of information out there if you know where to look..

Google
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say I needed to know, clubchamp did 😆.

I'll be keeping my big booted car for a while yet. I'm looking forward to giving golfers lifts post covid 🤣. (3 more years of university trips also influences the decision)

Yikes, just checked. Transporting your family in winter is a killer. The classic visiting relatives journey.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I didn't say I needed to know, clubchamp did 😆.

I'll be keeping my big booted car for a while yet. I'm looking forward to giving golfers lifts post covid 🤣. (3 more years of university trips also influences the decision)

Yikes, just checked. Transporting your family in winter is a killer. The classic visiting relatives journey.
		
Click to expand...

Just get your Skoda superb estate in plug in hyrbid form .. on sale until 2034 ... Would last 15 years minimum 

The range won't be that small come the future I'm sure.

There is so many things you can do to help aswell 

Pre condition the car using the plug.. the battery will get to the best condition for performance .. the car will be warm so won't need to use the heating on full

Should add a few miles.


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## fundy (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



@bobmac problem I find is those loudest against electric cars won't even give that video the time of day

Just finished it

Fascinating
		
Click to expand...


you ever feel some go too far the other way and wont hear the tiniest bit of criticism when it doesnt suit other peoples circumstances in the way it does theres?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			you ever feel some go too far the other way and wont hear the tiniest bit of criticism when it doesnt suit other peoples circumstances in the way it does theres?
		
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Yes and no

Criticism that isn't already myth busted and disproven on many levels ...


Actual questions that people worry about fair enough 

It's not a perfect science .. and it prob won't be for a while (if ever) but the myth spreading it much like the anti vaccination lot.


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## fundy (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes and no

Criticisn on m that isn't already myth busted and disprovemany levels ...


Actual questions that people worry about fair enough

It's not a perfect science .. and it prob won't be for a while (if ever) but the myth spreading it much like the anti vaccination lot.
		
Click to expand...


You mean those with an open mind with independent thought who like to do their own research and not necessarily conform because they are told to by the govt/large corps/mainstream press and peer pressure? We're all different and have different levels of understanding and knowledge we like to achieve before accepting or making big decisions, always helps to try and see both sides rather than taking one and criticising the other blindly imo. Just because some disagrees with you doesnt mean they are wrong, but as time passes society is becoming less and less understanding of people with a different viewpoint (even though its often one of the best ways to learn). Things arent always black or white........


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



@bobmac problem I find is* those loudest against electric cars won't even give that video the time of day*

Just finished it

Fascinating
		
Click to expand...




fundy said:



			you ever feel some go too far the other way and wont hear the tiniest bit of criticism when it doesnt suit other peoples circumstances in the way it does theres?
		
Click to expand...

Spot on.  The biggest issue with this subject is the evangelical devotion of its followers who will not hear a word of criticism against electric vehicles.

Currently to use an electric vehicle you have to pay over the odds, compared to an equivalent ICE vehicle if one exists, for less range and the likelihood is that you will still be creating as much pollution as the electric vehicles cause more  pollution to manufacture and the electricity they use will still come from fossil fuels.  As and when the electric vehicles are an equivalent  price for an equivalent product (including range) and the electricity is cleaner then electric vehicles will sell themselves.

Until then the maniacal devotion of their proponents who refuse to see any fault in them actually drive reasonably minded people away from electric vehicles, and disparaging comments like to one in the quote in bold only do more damage.  If you want to convert people to your cause engage them, don't insult them.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

I have a  VW T Roc which I would say is a normal family car .
Before COVID I can get four carry bags ( woods out) in the boot.
It has a ski hatch in the rear seat that gets the woods in no problem.

But nobody has answered the range question that this added weight has on the range.
Forget golf clubs and add four suitcases same thing probably heavier if my missus is anything to go by.

Just heard on TV that electric cars cannot be towed if they break down ! Is this true??


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have a  VW T Roc which I would say is a normal family car .
Before COVID I can get four carry bags ( woods out) in the boot.
It has a ski hatch in the rear seat that gets the woods in no problem.

But nobody has answered the range question that this added weight has on the range.
Forget golf clubs and add four suitcases same thing probably heavier if my missus is anything to go by.

Just heard on TV that electric cars cannot be towed if they break down ! Is this true??
		
Click to expand...

Look at the range calculator I posted from nissan.

Click family 

It is for 5 people in the car 

4 suitcases you could almost say is 1 person so call that your 4 person 4 cases


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Spot on.  The biggest issue with this subject is the evangelical devotion of its followers who will not hear a word of criticism against electric vehicles.

Currently to use an electric vehicle you have to pay over the odds, compared to an equivalent ICE vehicle if one exists, for less range and the likelihood is that you will still be creating as much pollution as the electric vehicles cause more  pollution to manufacture and the electricity they use will still come from fossil fuels.  As and when the electric vehicles are an equivalent  price for an equivalent product (including range) and the electricity is cleaner then electric vehicles will sell themselves.

Until then the maniacal devotion of their proponents who refuse to see any fault in them actually drive reasonably minded people away from electric vehicles, and disparaging comments like to one in the quote in bold only do more damage.  If you want to convert people to your cause engage them, don't insult them.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are a prime example of spreading myths and always come back with the same comments about pollution and when bob or anyone shows you evidence proving otherwise you slope back off into hiding.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			You mean those with an open mind with independent thought who like to do their own research and not necessarily conform because they are told to by the govt/large corps/mainstream press and peer pressure? We're all different and have different levels of understanding and knowledge we like to achieve before accepting or making big decisions, always helps to try and see both sides rather than taking one and criticising the other blindly imo. Just because some disagrees with you doesnt mean they are wrong, but as time passes society is becoming less and less understanding of people with a different viewpoint (even though its often one of the best ways to learn). Things arent always black or white........
		
Click to expand...

Like I stated those with genuine concerns no issues 

Myth spreaders who claim the same disproved myths as fact and even when shown evidence won't take on board


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/electric-vehicles-debunking-myths/


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

104 for the normal leaf.
So will be less if real world driving.
One thing surprised me is it won’t go over 65mph.
So without a recharge 50 mls is tops if I want to get home.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			104 for the normal leaf.
So will be less if real world driving.
One thing surprised me is it won’t go over 65mph.
So without a recharge 50 mls is tops if I want to get home.
		
Click to expand...

In a few years that will improved 

The hyuandi Kona for example 301 mile range prob 250 real world

However did you notice how little difference on the calculation the miles was for solo compared to family? Couple miles 

Just found this about the electric production in the UK 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bles-fossil-fuels-national-grid-a8967741.html

That coupled with Boris announcing we are going to push it even further (prob won't ofc but going right way)


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but you are a prime example of spreading myths and always come back with the same comments about pollution and when bob or anyone shows you evidence proving otherwise you slope back off into hiding.
		
Click to expand...

Slope off back into hiding; or not bothering to engage with the blinkered?

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html

Most of the UK’s electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, mainly natural gas (42% in 2016) and coal (9% in 2016). A very small amount is produced from other fuels (3.1% in 2016).

Renewable technologies use natural energy to make electricity. Fuel sources include wind, wave, marine, hydro, biomass and solar. It made up 24.5% of electricity generated in 2016 - this will rise as the UK aims to meet its EU target of generating 30% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/894920/Press_Notice_June_2020.pdf


Provisional calculations show that 13.2 per cent of final energy consumption in 2019 came from renewable sources, up from 12.0 (revised) per cent in 2018, as measured against the UK’s target to reach 15 per cent by 2020 under the 2009 EU Renewable Directive.

Fossil fuel’s share of generation decreased to 35.4 per cent in Q1 2020, as the fuel mix continued to move towards renewable sources. This is a new record low for fossil fuels.


https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb


https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

A report by the European Environment Agency (EEA) highlights that emissions from battery electric vehicle (BEV) production are generally higher than those from internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) production. 

One study suggests that CO2 emissions from electric car production are 59% higher than the level in production of traditional internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs).

Most car batteries are made in China, South Korea and Japan, where the use of carbon in electricity production is relatively high. 

An EEA report3 found that in China, 35-50% of total EV manufacturing emissions arise from electricity consumption for battery production. These emissions are up to three times higher than in the United States.

So at the moment, it seems fairly clear that electric vehicles aren't as clean as they could be, or clean as some claim them to be.  Yes, the potential is there, but at the moment they are not the panacea some claim they are, they are considerably more expensive and they don't have the range to match an ICE vehicle.  When they match an ICE vehicle, I'll consider one.  But it won't be because someone tries to bully me into it.

Good to see that you resorted to insults again.  Obviously you don't consider the concerns documented here as genuine.


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2020)

Ultimately, range isn't really relevant until you're running out of juice.
According to the range calculator the standard Leaf does 99 miles on a charge going 65 on the motorway to the in laws for Xmas ( not this year though)..
Its 208 miles door to door. 3 1/2-4 hours
So I have to stop twice to recharge, 1 a full charge and one "quickie" to get me another few miles.
How long would it take to do a full recharge at one of the, say, motorway services charge points?
Obviously the 2nd charge would be a short one but its that full charge that I want to know the time of....


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			In a few years that will improved

The hyuandi Kona for example 301 mile range prob 250 real world

However did you notice how little difference on the calculation the miles was for solo compared to family? Couple miles

Just found this about the electric production in the UK

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bles-fossil-fuels-national-grid-a8967741.html

That coupled with Boris announcing we are going to push it even further (prob won't ofc but going right way)
		
Click to expand...

I am looking at getting a VW ID3 it’s a really nice car .
Think I will go for the high battery one .
I don’t do a lot of long journeys so perfect for me 
About same size as a Golf that’s great I used to love my golfs.
Prob July / August looking forward it will do me 10 yrs that’s me 73 yrs old so be handing the driving to someone else I hope.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have a  VW T Roc which I would say is a normal family car .
Before COVID I can get four carry bags ( woods out) in the boot.
It has a ski hatch in the rear seat that gets the woods in no problem.

But nobody has answered the range question that this added weight has on the range.
Forget golf clubs and add four suitcases same thing probably heavier if my missus is anything to go by.

*Just heard on TV that electric cars cannot be towed if they break down ! Is this true??*

Click to expand...

I can't answer if it is true or not, but how many cars are actually towed nowadays?  Most are recovered by flatbeds so I can't see that as being an issue.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am looking at getting a VW ID3 it’s a really nice car .
Think I will go for the high battery one .
I don’t do a lot of long journeys so perfect for me
About same size as a Golf that’s great I used to love my golfs.
Prob July / August looking forward it will do me 10 yrs that’s me 73 yrs old so be handing the driving to someone else I hope.

Click to expand...

I saw a review on the ID3, starts at £29k but the one on test with all the extras that most people would want was £39k which is Tesla money!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I can't answer if it is true or not, but how many cars are actually towed nowadays?  Most are recovered by flatbeds so I can't see that as being an issue.
		
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That’s expensive.
You might be 1/2 mile from home .
But if it’s like a golf trolley where you have to disengage the wheels from the drive so your not pushing the motor I can see why you can’t tow or push one.
Might not be an issue but just one less choice given the range of some EVs it’s going to happen.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I saw a review on the ID3, starts at £29k but the one on test with all the extras that most people would want was £39k which is Tesla money!
		
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My mate works for a main dealer .
They are RRP they are nowhere near that.


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## bobmac (Dec 4, 2020)

Do you remember when people said mobile phones will never catch on because they're too big, the batteries are too heavy and they dont last very long on a charge?

The EV is still young and currently only suitable for people who can afford them and have shorter commutes.
This however will change, as did the mobile phone.

If you are thinking about getting one, do your research and you may find many of your concerns have already been addressed.
But be reassured... 
the batteries don't need to be replaced every 3 years
they don't take a week to charge
they will go faster than a milk float
You can take them through a car wash.

At the moment there are still drawbacks, the same with all new technology, cost, range, charging infrastructure, the use of rare earth materials, charging on the street, etc, but the boffins are working hard to make EVs more accessible to more people. It will take time but once the cost comes down and the charging improves, more people will make the change to EVs.
If anyone has any doubt, have a look at the car adverts on TV.

_''Look daddy, there's one of those old fashioned petrol cars''     _is not too many years away.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ultimately, range isn't really relevant until you're running out of juice.
According to the range calculator the standard Leaf does 99 miles on a charge going 65 on the motorway to the in laws for Xmas ( not this year though)..
Its 208 miles door to door. 3 1/2-4 hours
So I have to stop twice to recharge, 1 a full charge and one "quickie" to get me another few miles.
How long would it take to do a full recharge at one of the, say, motorway services charge points?
Obviously the 2nd charge would be a short one but its that full charge that I want to know the time of....
		
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It rather depends on the oomph of the charging point you are using

If it is a 50Kw unit (Standard rapid Charger then an hour should see you to 80%, Full charge 1 hour 20

if it is a 150Kw unit (BP has some) then 80% in 40 minutes, full charge 1 hour

The last 20% takes longer than the first bit


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It rather depends on the oomph of the charging point you are using

If it is a 50Kw unit (Standard rapid Charger then an hour should see you to 80%, Full charge 1 hour 20

if it is a 150Kw unit (BP has some) then 80% in 40 minutes, full charge 1 hour

The last 20% takes longer than the first bit
		
Click to expand...

In that video that bob posted they had future proofed and put in 300KW charges for cars in the future.. the speed is coming


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Slope off back into hiding; or not bothering to engage with the blinkered?

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html

Most of the UK’s electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, mainly natural gas (42% in 2016) and coal (9% in 2016). A very small amount is produced from other fuels (3.1% in 2016).

Renewable technologies use natural energy to make electricity. Fuel sources include wind, wave, marine, hydro, biomass and solar. It made up 24.5% of electricity generated in 2016 - this will rise as the UK aims to meet its EU target of generating 30% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/894920/Press_Notice_June_2020.pdf


Provisional calculations show that 13.2 per cent of final energy consumption in 2019 came from renewable sources, up from 12.0 (revised) per cent in 2018, as measured against the UK’s target to reach 15 per cent by 2020 under the 2009 EU Renewable Directive.


Fossil fuel’s share of generation decreased to 35.4 per cent in Q1 2020, as the fuel mix continued to move towards renewable sources. This is a new record low for fossil fuels.


https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb


https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

A report by the European Environment Agency (EEA) highlights that emissions from battery electric vehicle (BEV) production are generally higher than those from internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) production.

One study suggests that CO2 emissions from electric car production are 59% higher than the level in production of traditional internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs).

Most car batteries are made in China, South Korea and Japan, where the use of carbon in electricity production is relatively high.

An EEA report3 found that in China, 35-50% of total EV manufacturing emissions arise from electricity consumption for battery production. These emissions are up to three times higher than in the United States.

So at the moment, it seems fairly clear that electric vehicles aren't as clean as they could be, or clean as some claim them to be.  Yes, the potential is there, but at the moment they are not the panacea some claim they are, they are considerably more expensive and they don't have the range to match an ICE vehicle.  When they match an ICE vehicle, I'll consider one.  But it won't be because someone tries to bully me into it.

Good to see that you resorted to insults again.  Obviously you don't consider the concerns documented here as genuine.
		
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do any of these reports factor in the mining of the oil and the refining process ?

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

Here, in response to recent misleading media reports on the topic, Carbon Brief provides a detailed look at the climate impacts of EVs. In this analysis, Carbon Brief finds:

EVs are responsible for considerably lower emissions over their lifetime than conventional (internal combustion engine) vehicles across Europe as a whole.
In countries with coal-intensive electricity generation, the benefits of EVs are smaller and they can have similar lifetime emissions to the most efficient conventional vehicles – such as hybrid-electric models.
However, as countries decarbonise electricity generation to meet their climate targets, driving emissions will fall for existing EVs and manufacturing emissions will fall for new EVs.
 In the UK in 2019, the lifetime emissions per kilometre of driving a Nissan Leaf EV were about three times lower than for the average conventional car, even before accounting for the falling carbon intensity of electricity generation during the car’s lifetime.
Comparisons between electric vehicles and conventional vehicles are complex. They depend on the size of the vehicles, the accuracy of the fuel-economy estimates used, how electricity emissions are calculated, what driving patterns are assumed, and even the weather in regions where the vehicles are used. There is no single estimate that applies everywhere.
There are also large uncertainties around the emissions associated with electric vehicle battery production, with different studies producing widely differing numbers. As battery prices fall and vehicle manufacturers start including larger batteries with longer driving ranges, battery production emissions can have a larger impact on the climate benefits of electric vehicles.
Around half of the emissions from battery production come from the electricity used in manufacturing and assembling the batteries. Producing batteries in regions with relatively low-carbon electricity or in factories powered by renewable energy, as will be the case for the batteries used in the best-selling Tesla Model 3, can substantially reduce battery emissions.


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## Imurg (Dec 4, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It rather depends on the oomph of the charging point you are using

If it is a 50Kw unit (Standard rapid Charger then an hour should see you to 80%, Full charge 1 hour 20

if it is a 150Kw unit (BP has some) then 80% in 40 minutes, full charge 1 hour

The last 20% takes longer than the first bit
		
Click to expand...

So my 4 hour trip has just turned into a 6+.....assuming there's no queue at the chargers...
And that's why, at the moment, I'm out.
It will happen, I've no doubt. And, of course, were all going electric eventually 
I just hope they can sort the charging at home issue.


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## bobmac (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			In that video that bob posted they had future proofed and put in 300KW charges for cars in the future.. the speed is coming
		
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350kw 




Imurg said:



			So my 4 hour trip has just turned into a 6+.....assuming there's no queue at the chargers...
And that's why, at the moment, I'm out.
		
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With the money you save all year driving your electric car, you could hire a big fancy car for the Christmas trip.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you remember when people said mobile phones will never catch on because they're too big, the batteries are too heavy and they dont last very long on a charge?

The EV is still young and currently only suitable for people who can afford them and have shorter commutes.
This however will change, as did the mobile phone.

If you are thinking about getting one, do your research and you may find many of your concerns have already been addressed.
But be reassured...
the batteries don't need to be replaced every 3 years
they don't take a week to charge
they will go faster than a milk float
You can take them through a car wash.

At the moment there are still drawbacks, the same with all new technology, cost, range, charging infrastructure, the use of rare earth materials, charging on the street, etc, but the boffins are working hard to make EVs more accessible to more people. It will take time but once the cost comes down and the charging improves, more people will make the change to EVs.
If anyone has any doubt, have a look at the car adverts on TV.

_''Look daddy, there's one of those old fashioned petrol cars''     _is not too many years away.
		
Click to expand...

Bob do you remember when people said CDs were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Tomorrow’s world told us they were indestructible, engineers were evangelical about how they were superior to vinyl and cassette. And for a while they seemed to be but now they are pretty much obsolete. I think the EV powered by batteries will go the same way. There will never be sufficient charging points and they will never be able to get the range to satisfy people’s doubts. Another tech, maybe ethanol or hydrogen will overtake it. The lithium battery EV will probably just be a city car.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bob do you remember when people said CDs were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Tomorrow’s world told us they were indestructible, engineers were evangelical about how they were superior to vinyl and cassette. And for a while they seemed to be but now they are pretty much obsolete. I think the EV powered by batteries will go the same way. There will never be sufficient charging points and they will never be able to get the range to satisfy people’s doubts. Another tech, maybe ethanol or hydrogen will overtake it. The lithium battery EV will probably just be a city car.
		
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I think a better argument would be mini disk.. s better tech than cd but MP3 came along and made them obsolete.

CDs are still sold  and have been for 38 years 

Maybe they are the ice cars? A stable for years and stayed around for years after MP3 (electric cars) came along.. still people using them and will do for ages


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			350kw 




With the money you save all year driving your electric car, you could hire a big fancy car for the Christmas trip.

Click to expand...

At one point didn't nissan offer customers use of  a ice car 3 times a year?

Like for ages telsa offered free charging for life of the vehicle


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## Smiffy (Dec 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			At one point didn't nissan offer customers use of  a ice car 3 times a year?
		
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They did. But it was for 14 days a year, taken how you like. So two separate week long trips or 7 weekends away 😉😉😉


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			They did. But it was for 14 days a year, taken how you like. So two separate week long trips or 7 weekends away 😉😉😉
		
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Thought I'd read it somewhere. That was a very well planned offer


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bob do you remember when people said CDs were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Tomorrow’s world told us they were indestructible, engineers were evangelical about how they were superior to vinyl and cassette. And for a while they seemed to be but now they are pretty much obsolete. I think the EV powered by batteries will go the same way. There will never be sufficient charging points and they will never be able to get the range to satisfy people’s doubts. Another tech, maybe ethanol or hydrogen will overtake it. The lithium battery EV will probably just be a city car.
		
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Vinyl is actually making a comeback as its sound quality is apparently better than CD's.  But CD's are still more adaptable (you won't be playing vinyl in the car) and are less prone to damage.  So both systems have their advantages, much like EV's & ICE vehicles.


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## bobmac (Dec 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			So both systems have their advantages, much like EV's & ICE vehicles.
		
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I think that's the way it will be for 2 car families for a while yet, a plug-in hybrid for long journeys and the full electric for school runs, shopping etc.
The 2011 Nissan Leaf had a range of 80-100 miles in 9 years thats increased to 250-300 in the new EVs.

_''While the emission-reducing properties of electric vehicles are widely accepted, there's still controversy around the batteries, particularly the use of metals like cobalt. SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, *which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars,* while also lengthening the life of the battery and increasing the safety. Exactly where we'll see these batteries we don't know, but the company has confirmed that it's working with a large European manufacturer.''_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air (pocket-lint.com)


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think that's the way it will be for 2 car families for a while yet, a plug-in hybrid for long journeys and the full electric for school runs, shopping etc.
The 2011 Nissan Leaf had a range of 80-100 miles in 9 years thats increased to 250-300 in the new EVs.

_''While the emission-reducing properties of electric vehicles are widely accepted, there's still controversy around the batteries, particularly the use of metals like cobalt. SVOLT, based in Changzhou, China, has announced that it has manufactured cobalt-free batteries designed for the EV market. Aside from reducing the rare earth metals, the company is claiming that they have a higher energy density, *which could result in ranges of up to 800km (500 miles) for electric cars,* while also lengthening the life of the battery and increasing the safety. Exactly where we'll see these batteries we don't know, but the company has confirmed that it's working with a large European manufacturer.''_

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air (pocket-lint.com)

View attachment 33845

Click to expand...

That's exactly how I'm planning to play it

4 year lease on e Corsa

Alhambra is 4 years old. Need the 3 yo to reach 12 so need 9 years 

Keep leasing electric and then when can actually get an average size car again I'll look at a hybrid SUV for the family


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## Smiffy (Dec 4, 2020)

Trust me. Within 10 years most electric cars will have a range of 500 miles or more. No problem.
That'll do pig.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My mate works for a main dealer .
They are RRP they are nowhere near that.
		
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True but similar discounts would apply to most cars. 40k gets you a lot of motor rather than a small family hatchback.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			One of my motors is coming to the end of its deal and am looking at options to replace it. The current supplier has offered me a pretty good deal to keep me as a customer, new motor for minimal deposit and an extra £6 a month. Trouble is it's a 2L diesel. 

Another good option I've also been offered is on the new Peugeot e-208.  It's a full electric model, which supposedly does 200 miles to a charge, although closer to 150 in real world terms. Mostly to be used by Mrs wedge as a run around, but will occasionally drive it to work (130 mile round trip, charging point at the office). 

I'm kind of leaning towards the e-208, but still not sure on the slight extra cost vs the savings on using electric etc. I have a regular diesel for long journeys, so it really is for local runs mainly. 

Anyone else running electric? Is it cost effective vs diesel? Would you go electric?
		
Click to expand...

Going back to this initial question , did you go for it? The e 208 should defo suit all those needs. 150 miles would do your work trip especialllg with charging at work 

When pottering around town it gets even more economical

Think that's where EV have ice engines beat. Ev thrive on sub 40 mph speeds and really return good figures 

Ice you Mostly need faster speeds to get good return


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2020)

drive4show said:



			True but similar discounts would apply to most cars. 40k gets you a lot of motor rather than a small family hatchback.
		
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Yes that’s the dilemma!


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## Smiffy (Dec 4, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It rather depends on the oomph of the charging point you are using

If it is a 50Kw unit (Standard rapid Charger then an hour should see you to 80%, Full charge 1 hour 20

if it is a 150Kw unit (BP has some) then 80% in 40 minutes, full charge 1 hour

The last 20% takes longer than the first bit
		
Click to expand...

The rapid chargers at service areas will only put an 80% charge in, maximum. And that would take about 30 to 40 minutes. You can stand there all day if you want, but you won't get the other 20%.
It's what they're designed to do


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## pauljames87 (Dec 4, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			The rapid chargers at service areas will only put an 80% charge in, maximum. And that would take about 30 to 40 minutes. You can stand there all day if you want, but you won't get the other 20%.
It's what they're designed to do
		
Click to expand...

Why is that? Is it like phones that it prolongs the life if you don't fully charge or fully discharge  to save charging cycles


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 4, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			The rapid chargers at service areas will only put an 80% charge in, maximum. And that would take about 30 to 40 minutes. You can stand there all day if you want, but you won't get the other 20%.
It's what they're designed to do
		
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We regularly deliver electric vehicles to auto journalists for reviews as well as end users.
Our instructions are to deliver with at least 80% charge.

I have charged many to 95-97% so your 80% max charge claim isn’t accurate 

We tend to use BP Chargemaster ( used to be Polar)


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 4, 2020)

A few weeks ago I was chatting to a guy in my industry who hadnt long been issued witht he Nissan eNV200 leccy van. I was asking him about it and specifically the range. He said empty it was fine, but load it up and the range dropped alarmingly, and just dont use the heating or worse the air con if you want a loaded van to make it a whole day without charging, and their range is allegedly 170 miles or there abouts on a full charge. He reckoned he was getting no more than 90 miles, and thats without using the heating or aircon. I think I will pass until they either have a decent range sorted, or more likely come up with a viable long term power source.


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## Dibby (Dec 5, 2020)

The other point not addressed is battery fatigue, on average an EV battery loses about 2% capacity annually. So your 300 mile range car after 5years might only be a 260 mile range car. 

What are the environmental and financial impacts of potentially replacing batteries every 5-10 years?

This and the speed of charging is why I see hydrogen/biofuel/some other liquid fuel being the future rather than electric.

Yes, I might be wrong and EVs may be the mobile phone of the vehicle world, but they could just as easily be the laserdisc, Betamax, or Sinclair C5.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2020)

Dibby said:



			The other point not addressed is battery fatigue, on average an EV battery loses about 2% capacity annually. So your 300 mile range car after 5years might only be a 260 mile range car. 

What are the environmental and financial impacts of potentially replacing batteries every 5-10 years?

This and the speed of charging is why I see hydrogen/biofuel/some other liquid fuel being the future rather than electric.

Yes, I might be wrong and EVs may be the mobile phone of the vehicle world, but they could just as easily be the laserdisc, Betamax, or Sinclair C5.
		
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Toyota bought back their first Prius off owners after 10 years .. they did a test of the batteries and the life was found to be nowhere near as first feared .

They say that the batteries will out live the car 

It is down to how people treat them tho

If you use preconditioning (using your house power to get the car ready, heating, air con, gets the windows defrosted) it saves the battery doing heavy work. Also gets the battery to the perfect temp to work in winter to save it working harder 

Like anything if you look after it lasts well

Most of them come with 8 year battery warrenty

The Corsa-e’s battery warranty guarantees that at least 70 per cent of its capacity is maintained for 100,000 miles, or eight years.


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## Dibby (Dec 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Toyota bought back their first Prius off owners after 10 years .. they did a test of the batteries and the life was found to be nowhere near as first feared .

They say that the batteries will out live the car

It is down to how people treat them tho

If you use preconditioning (using your house power to get the car ready, heating, air con, gets the windows defrosted) it saves the battery doing heavy work. Also gets the battery to the perfect temp to work in winter to save it working harder

Like anything if you look after it lasts well

Most of them come with 8 year battery warrenty

The Corsa-e’s battery warranty guarantees that at least 70 per cent of its capacity is maintained for 100,000 miles, or eight years.
		
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What did Toyota fear on battery life though? 2% a year is based on the latest studies across multiple brands, obviously its not linear you lose a lot in the first year or 2 then it levels out then you lose a lot again nearer the batteries end of life.

Losing 30% of your range after 8 years is a fairly big hit, and could completely impact whether the car suits you. Taking the Corsa-e's official range of 211 miles, after 8 years that could be 148 miles, I know ICE engines wear and lose power and efficiency, but not so much as you'd only get 350 miles instead of 500 out of a full tank.

I know you probably think I'm one of those people that wants to hang on to ICE at all costs, I'm not, I'm sure there will be some kind of replacement for ICE, I just struggle to see it being EVs for any use case other than city cars.


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2020)

How is this battery drain going to affect 2nd hand prices..?
Obviously if youre ,easing you just give it back but will the loss of battery charge, end to lease companies charging more as the depreciation may be higher?
And anyone who buys - what's the value going to be in 8 years when the battery warranty is up and the unit only holds 70% charge.?
And who's going to buy it.?
I appreciate that the tech will move on but, just say, a 9 year old EV needs a new battery - what sort of money are we talking.?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2020)

Dibby said:



			What did Toyota fear on battery life though? 2% a year is based on the latest studies across multiple brands, obviously its not linear you lose a lot in the first year or 2 then it levels out then you lose a lot again nearer the batteries end of life.

Losing 30% of your range after 8 years is a fairly big hit, and could completely impact whether the car suits you. Taking the Corsa-e's official range of 211 miles, after 8 years that could be 148 miles, I know ICE engines wear and lose power and efficiency, but not so much as you'd only get 350 miles instead of 500 out of a full tank.

I know you probably think I'm one of those people that wants to hang on to ICE at all costs, I'm not, I'm sure there will be some kind of replacement for ICE, I just struggle to see it being EVs for any use case other than city cars.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-...acturers have a five,they need to be replaced.

EV batteries undergo cycles of 'discharge' that occur when driving and 'charge' when the car's plugged in. Repeating this process over time affects the amount of charge the battery can hold. This decreases the range and time needed between each journey to charge. Most manufacturers have a five to eight-year warranty on their battery. However, the current prediction is that an electric car battery will last from 10 – 20 years before they need to be replaced.

In fact, in order to preserve the life of an electric vehicle battery, manufacturers ensure that there is additional spare capacity to compensate for degradation over time. So as an electric vehicle ages and the battery cycles, the additional spare capacity is used up. This allows the range of the vehicle to stay the same throughout the life of the battery. Once the battery capacity falls below 80%, drivers may start to notice a fall in the range and performance of the battery.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How is this battery drain going to affect 2nd hand prices..?
Obviously if youre ,easing you just give it back but will the loss of battery charge, end to lease companies charging more as the depreciation may be higher?
And anyone who buys - what's the value going to be in 8 years when the battery warranty is up and the unit only holds 70% charge.?
And who's going to buy it.?
I appreciate that the tech will move on but, just say, a 9 year old EV needs a new battery - what sort of money are we talking.?
		
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Yes and no with leasing, high resale value after 3 years as you have 5 years still on the warrenty so still a decent investment for some 

Guy I work with laid 20k down on a second hand leaf 2018 plate 

I was talking with him about my worries of battery life (why I'm leasing and not owning yet) he was saying about his 8 year warranty and how even when it drops he will still be able to use to and from work which is the main use 

Think they will thrive as second cars


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Going back to this initial question , did you go for it? The e 208 should defo suit all those needs. 150 miles would do your work trip especialllg with charging at work
		
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I read all the info I could, but decided that I wanted to wait until the infrastructure, battery life and car costs all improved. I'm sure they will over the next 4 years, so decided to stick with ICE for this swap. Mercedes also came after me trying to retain my custom, and offered me a fantastic deal on a new car, cheaper than my old one. Fuel type aside the Merc was a hell of a lot more for the money than the Peugeot, that helped swing it this time. It would have been nice to go electric but I don't think it was quite ready for me, or maybe I was not quite ready for it. I am looking forward to seeing some major improvements over the next couple of years and hope to make the switch on the next change.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			I read all the info I could, but decided that I wanted to wait until the infrastructure, battery life and car costs all improved. I'm sure they will over the next 4 years, so decided to stick with ICE for this swap. Mercedes also came after me trying to retain my custom, and offered me a fantastic deal on a new car, cheaper than my old one. Fuel type aside the Merc was a hell of a lot more for the money than the Peugeot, that helped swing it this time. It would have been nice to go electric but I don't think it was quite ready for me, or maybe I was not quite ready for it. I am looking forward to seeing some major improvements over the next couple of years and hope to make the switch on the next change.
		
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If Merc are going to swoop with an offer that's hard to turn down to be fair ...


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If Merc are going to swoop with an offer that's hard to turn down to be fair ...
		
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Ashamed to say, I really wanted to go EV bit it was too good an offer in the scheme of things.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 6, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Ashamed to say, I really wanted to go EV bit it was too good an offer in the scheme of things.
		
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That's the thing offers are key 

I had to keep focused on ev to make the switch .. because really I could have got a different car for the price 

The wife wasn't overly impressed. She goes by looks (not with men obviously) she liked the Kona I wanted .. so was sold on that. The offer disappeared , meant a long wait and increased price so went for a Corsa. She wasn't impressed. Whilst she liked the looks thought too small for us.. had to remind her it's the commuting car not the family car lol .. but she thinks the Alhambra is ugly as sin .. which is true but can't be helped with 3 kids in car seats lol 

But then next time round in 4 years we don't have to get a massive pram in and out the door so can go for say a Kia niro electric which is longer (would block the pram getting out the door easily)

Need that Alhambra to last another 9 years


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## Dibby (Dec 7, 2020)

Porsche and Bosch recently announced development of a big "efuel" plant in South America, basically they use a big solar farm to produce a synthetic fuel for IC engines that is carbon neutral - you still have the issue of carbon being released at the cars exhaust, but it is all carbon that was captured from the environment to produce the fuel, rather than carbon that was buried in the ground from a dead dinosaur. They think the price will be approx €1.30 a litre pre tax by 2030 and €1 a litre by 2050. Interesting development if it works and can be scaled.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2020)

Installed today 

Cars been delayed slightly but because of Xmas etc prob be here in a few more weeks. Which is fine no rush.

Octupus energy been running a few weeks. Dishwasher and washing machine set to the cheap hours .. saving £2.50 a week already which will offset the £5 a week to run the car a bit 

Impressed with podpoint for the install clever bit of tech

Can't wait to precondition the car before use .. no more waiting for car to demist .. get in a perfect warm car and the battery will be brought to correct heat preserving life a bit 

Love a gadget


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## USER1999 (Dec 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34099


Installed today 

Cars been delayed slightly but because of Xmas etc prob be here in a few more weeks. Which is fine no rush.

Octupus energy been running a few weeks. Dishwasher and washing machine set to the cheap hours .. saving £2.50 a week already which will offset the £5 a week to run the car a bit 

Impressed with podpoint for the install clever bit of tech

Can't wait to precondition the car before use .. no more waiting for car to demist .. get in a perfect warm car and the battery will be brought to correct heat preserving life a bit 

Love a gadget
		
Click to expand...

Why is it installed in doors?


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## Fade and Die (Dec 22, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Why is it installed in doors?
		
Click to expand...

Must be an optical illusion as at first I thought it was indoors! Now I can see it’s clearly outdoors!😁


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Why is it installed in doors?
		
Click to expand...

Has a joke gone completely over my head here? As it's outside on side of my porch lol


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34099


Installed today

Cars been delayed slightly but because of Xmas etc prob be here in a few more weeks. Which is fine no rush.

Octupus energy been running a few weeks. Dishwasher and washing machine set to the cheap hours .. saving £2.50 a week already which will offset the £5 a week to run the car a bit

Impressed with podpoint for the install clever bit of tech

Can't wait to precondition the car before use .. no more waiting for car to demist .. get in a perfect warm car and the battery will be brought to correct heat preserving life a bit

Love a gadget
		
Click to expand...

Pre conditioning very much a welcome addition this morning. And looking at the weather tomorrow will make sure I have a toasty car after golf. 

I charge at around 40% that takes me to full and makes use of the 4 hours cheap time.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Pre conditioning very much a welcome addition this morning. And looking at the weather tomorrow will make sure I have a toasty car after golf. 

I charge at around 40% that takes me to full and makes use of the 4 hours cheap time.
View attachment 34122
View attachment 34123

Click to expand...

What car did you go for?

I'm very much looking forward to preconditioning

Just to get the car to an acceptable level .

Im not sure about the app for the Corsa , don't know how good it is


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			What car did you go for?

I'm very much looking forward to preconditioning

Just to get the car to an acceptable level .

Im not sure about the app for the Corsa , don't know how good it is
		
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e208, only had it couple of weeks. Feels very planted as yours will with COG being centre of car. Really impressed with it. Was a good choice. Getting 150miles out of it with heating at 18degrees, initial blast with heated seats and a stint on the motorway. I have seen 189miles driving normally but no heating as I had a coat on.  I was expecting 100-110 with my lead foot so it has exceeded expectations.

If it’s like mine which being a PSA offering I imagine it’s a generic app and will be the same as it shares the same infotainment system bar colour scheme - it’s average (like Volkswagens we connect - probably the same developer) , and takes a few 20min journeys to activate. 
Also the dealer needs to make sure the car is registered to the PSA servers for it to work. If your phone, car, key won’t sync together then you know they haven’t done it. A phone call sorts it as it’s OTA.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			e208, only had it couple of weeks. Feels very planted as yours will with COG being centre of car. Really impressed with it. Was a good choice. Getting 150miles out of it with heating at 18degrees, initial blast with heated seats and a stint on the motorway. I have seen 189miles driving normally but no heating as I had a coat on.  I was expecting 100-110 with my lead foot so it has exceeded expectations.

If it’s like mine which being a PSA offering I imagine it’s a generic app and will be the same as it shares the same infotainment system bar colour scheme - it’s average (like Volkswagens we connect - probably the same developer) , and takes a few 20min journeys to activate. 
Also the dealer needs to make sure the car is registered to the PSA servers for it to work. If your phone, car, key won’t sync together then you know they haven’t done it. A phone call sorts it as it’s OTA.
		
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We basically have the same car then! The Corsa e is the e208 boring cousin lol yours is more flash and out there. The Corsa is a plain Jane 

I can't wait tho 

Cheap running 

I have the podpoint up and running 

They said keep it between 20-80% and only do 100% for long trips 

Also said once a month go down the rapid charge and give it a little boost


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We basically have the same car then! The Corsa e is the e208 boring cousin lol yours is more flash and out there. The Corsa is a plain Jane

I can't wait tho

Cheap running

I have the podpoint up and running

They said keep it between 20-80% and only do 100% for long trips

Also said once a month go down the rapid charge and give it a little boost
		
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Very much the same, our lass has the petrol variant. 

They are the tips for looking after the battery but preconditioning can only be done above 50% (too much conservative limit as it only uses 3% battery) 
Summer I can keep it within those tolerances but winter I’m plugging it to warm the car and with it being a three year lease I’m not worried about battery degradation. 

Though I was lead to believe it was best to every now and again to run lithium batts down to empty and fully charge once in awhile.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Very much the same, our lass has the petrol variant. 

They are the tips for looking after the battery but preconditioning can only be done above 50% (too much conservative limit as it only uses 3% battery) 
Summer I can keep it within those tolerances but winter I’m plugging it to warm the car and with it being a three year lease I’m not worried about battery degradation. 

Though I was lead to believe it was best to every now and again to run lithium batts down to empty and fully charge once in awhile.
		
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I guess every tech has different tips I've heard s few diff ones already 

Can't wait for it to arrive now. Whilst I enjoy driving my tank as I call it I will love the low cost and simple trips to work 

We already moved to octupus, 5p at night . So one dishwasher and one washing machine loaf pushed to that window .. saving £2.50 a week with £5 to run the car a week it certainly adds up


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## grumpyjock (Dec 23, 2020)

Was looking at the new Citroen 2 door for £5500 as a local run-around, would let me do the shopping and run to the golf course.


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## Smiffy (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			e208, only had it couple of weeks. Feels very planted as yours will with COG being centre of car. Really impressed with it. Was a good choice. Getting 150miles out of it with heating at 18degrees, initial blast with heated seats and a stint on the motorway. I have seen 189miles driving normally but no heating as I had a coat on.  I was expecting 100-110 with my lead foot so it has exceeded expectations.
		
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I've been driving our e208 for the last few weeks.
Has to go to Brighton the other week, range was showing as 124 miles. Drove economically as possible and it rose to 148 during the journey and was still reading 118 when I got back. That was a 50 mile round trip!!![/QUOTE]


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			I've been driving our e208 for the last few weeks.
Has to go to Brighton the other week, range was showing as 124 miles. Drove economically as possible and it rose to 148 during the journey and was still reading 118 when I got back. That was a 50 mile round trip!!!
		
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[/QUOTE]

That's decent! I can't wait to get going on mine 

Apparently wednesday they went to load it on the transport but vauxhall had put a hold on the car and they don't know why yet 

Lease companies!


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 23, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			I've been driving our e208 for the last few weeks.
Has to go to Brighton the other week, range was showing as 124 miles. Drove economically as possible and it rose to 148 during the journey and was still reading 118 when I got back. That was a 50 mile round trip!!!
		
Click to expand...

That’s some economical driving! 😂

The Guess-o-meter throws some crazy numbers out there.

Best to look at your miles per KWh and times that number by 45 which will give you your accurate range.

For maximum WLTP range you want to aim for 4.7mi/KWh
I’ve seen 4.1 on a clear run with steady throttling, pulse and coast in D mode, dual carriageway and general look ahead for junctions and no heating or pre warm. I do usually get 3.1 in sport on my work route.

Done a 2mile journey to pick the missus up just and achieved 1.9. It doesn’t like short cold journeys.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			That’s some economical driving! 😂

The Guess-o-meter throws some crazy numbers out there.

Best to look at your miles per KWh and times that number by 45 which will give you your accurate range.

For maximum WLTP range you want to aim for 4.7mi/KWh
I’ve seen 4.1 on a clear run with steady throttling, pulse and coast in D mode, dual carriageway and general look ahead for junctions and no heating or pre warm. I do usually get 3.1 in sport on my work route.

Done a 2mile journey to pick the missus up just and achieved 1.9. It doesn’t like short cold journeys.
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought short cold journeys would be perfect


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I would have thought short cold journeys would be perfect
		
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The batteries need be a good temp to get optimal range. It was an 8 minute drive,  very windy, uphill, rain, junctions I need to be quick off the mark as dangerous and no pre warm. The worst conditions for the car.  If the batteries were sentient they’d be crying. 

I was watching a vlog on electric cars and they say 3.5miles/KWh is the average to expect with normal driving with any electric car.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			The batteries need be a good temp to get optimal range. It was an 8 minute drive,  very windy, uphill, rain, junctions I need to be quick off the mark as dangerous and no pre warm. The worst conditions for the car.  If the batteries were sentient they’d be crying. 

I was watching a vlog on electric cars and they say 3.5miles/KWh is the average to expect with normal driving with any electric car.
		
Click to expand...

Got ya! I plan to precondition it as much as possible if I can get the app working 

Then I'll drop little one off at nursery in it if raining as it's a short drive


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## Lump (Dec 23, 2020)

Spent the day with the old man delivering Tesla’s. 
All company cars ranging from £55k to £80k. 
All are paying stupidly small amounts in company car tax for the value of cars. 
Honestly not sure who’s footing the bill.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Lump said:



			Spent the day with the old man delivering Tesla’s.
All company cars ranging from £55k to £80k.
All are paying stupidly small amounts in company car tax for the value of cars.
Honestly not sure who’s footing the bill.
		
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The companies. Leases for these cars are not cheap. I do wonder if there is a little trade off with employees in terms of salary,  a half way house? Then again if the employees previously had their fuel paid for by work then perhaps that is where the companies win back?


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## Lump (Dec 23, 2020)

One guy mentioned his company is forecasting to save about 3k each on fuel on employees with a Tesla 
Doesn’t seem like a huge saving IMO. He was only paying £280 a month for a fully loaded long range model 3.
was getting the £500 grant towards a £1k charge point install at his house.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Lump said:



			One guy mentioned his company is forecasting to save about 3k each on fuel on employees with a Tesla
Doesn’t seem like a huge saving IMO. He was only paying £280 a month for a fully loaded long range model 3.
was getting the £500 grant towards a £1k charge point install at his house.
		
Click to expand...

If the lease itself is only £280 for a loaded model then he must be doing about 2,000 miles a year 😁. That's a crazy low price for a car with that value.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Lump said:



			One guy mentioned his company is forecasting to save about 3k each on fuel on employees with a Tesla 
Doesn’t seem like a huge saving IMO. He was only paying £280 a month for a fully loaded long range model 3.
was getting the £500 grant towards a £1k charge point install at his house.
		
Click to expand...

Lot of it is by government

My charge point was a £300 grant towards


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

First dose of range anxiety yesterday. 33 miles left on the Guess’o’meter, 22 miles home. 
Pulled into costa for a rapid charge. Plugged in, ordered coffee from the costa app. 5mins later I go to collect it, drink said coffee and a surf on the web. 
30 minutes pass, I have 96miles on the GOM, drive home normally and still had 93miles on arrival. 

Looking at the data after, I’d of made it home regardless. Even a slight adjustment of driving would of quelled any worries, but it was no hardship to stop for a coffee which usually is something I’d do anyway.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			First dose of range anxiety yesterday. 33 miles left on the Guess’o’meter, 22 miles home. 
Pulled into costa for a rapid charge. Plugged in, ordered coffee from the costa app. 5mins later I go to collect it, drink said coffee and a surf on the web. 
30 minutes pass, I have 96miles on the GOM, drive home normally and still had 93miles on arrival. 

Looking at the data after, I’d of made it home regardless. Even a slight adjustment of driving would of quelled any worries, but it was no hardship to stop for a coffee which usually is something I’d do anyway.
		
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I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.
		
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Not a crazy idea as such but a PITA if you happen to be going somewhere and, as a result, you're 30 minutes late and miss whatever it was...


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## Smiffy (Dec 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not a crazy idea as such but a PITA if you happen to be going somewhere and, as a result, you're 30 minutes late and miss whatever it was...
		
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As an electric car owner you'd appreciate this and leave half an hour early


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			As an electric car owner you'd appreciate this and leave half an hour early


Click to expand...

Clearly you have never met Mrs Imurg...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.
		
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It depends on how long your original journey was. If it was a stop you otherwise would not have made then stopping would be a pain and is a prime reason why take up is still slow.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not a crazy idea as such but a PITA if you happen to be going somewhere and, as a result, you're 30 minutes late and miss whatever it was...
		
Click to expand...

If you plan to be somewhere and are 30 mins late because of a stop that's very bad planning you have allowed for nothing to go wrong ..

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends on how long your original journey was. If it was a stop you otherwise would not have made then stopping would be a pain and is a prime reason why take up is still slow.
		
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Might force people to take the frequent breaks your suppose to take when driving


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If you plan to be somewhere and are 30 mins late because of a stop that's very bad planning you have allowed for nothing to go wrong ..

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail
		
Click to expand...

Do you live in the real world.?
A world where everything runs like clockwork, there are no hold ups and nothing ever goes wrong?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.
		
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Or I just plan to have enough fuel in the car to ensure I can make the journey with no stops or issues - but if there is some reason why it runs low then I just pop into one of the 10 thousand petrol stations , spend 5 mins at most topping up and then be on my way


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 27, 2020)

To be the owner of an electric car, then you must observe the 7 P’s

Perfect Preparation & Planning Prevent Pretty Poor Performance.

Q, How did the car get down to only 33 miles range?

A.  Because either you didn’t recharge it last night or because you didn’t factor a recharge into your trip

In other words you messed up 🤭

The range indicator shows the estimated range as you are currently driving it or have recently driven it.

I’ve had cars that say 30 miles range, but the meter is showing half full, so slam it into full eco mode, stop doing a Sterling Moss and you will be surprised how far they will go.

Having said that the AA are now carrying chargers for anyone that gets caught out 👍


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To be the owner of an electric car, then you must observe the 7 P’s

Perfect Preparation & Planning Prevent Pretty Poor Performance.

Q, How did the car get down to only 33 miles range?

A.  Because either you didn’t recharge it last night or because you didn’t factor a recharge into your trip

In other words you messed up 🤭

The range indicator shows the estimated range as you are currently driving it or have recently driven it.

I’ve had cars that say 30 miles range, but the meter is showing half full, so slam it into full eco mode, stop doing a Sterling Moss and you will be surprised how far they will go.

Having said that the AA are now carrying chargers for anyone that gets caught out 👍
		
Click to expand...

Knowing how poor the Great British Public are at planning for anything it seems an aptitude test will be required in order to use an EV...a test the majority would fail so nobody would be allowed to buy one.....


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Do you live in the real world.?
A world where everything runs like clockwork, there are no hold ups and nothing ever goes wrong?
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was saying. If you are 30 mins late because you spent 30 mins filling up you left far too late in the first place 

You only allowed the exact time to get there.


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Having said that the AA are now carrying chargers for anyone that gets caught out 👍
		
Click to expand...

Other breakdown companies are available


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Might force people to take the frequent breaks your suppose to take when driving
		
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Again, it depends on how far you went before needing to stop. I don't want to elongate journey times beyond what is necessary, and safe, simply because a car isn't up to the job.


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's exactly what I was saying. If you are 30 mins late because you spent 30 mins filling up you left far too late in the first place

You only allowed the exact time to get there.
		
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In JB's post he was going home.. where he was going isn't really relevant 
What's relevant is that, instead of taking half an hour, it took an hour because he felt he had to stop and recharge.
In a ICE that hour would have been 32 minutes.
If the destination had been an important one, with a deadline such as a missed train, the chances are that in the ICE he would have made it, in the EV he wouldn't 
And you can go on about planning as much as you want..the fact remains that he didn't think he would make the journey with the juice he had left.
The best plans go wrong sometimes.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In JB's post he was going home.. where he was going isn't really relevant 
What's relevant is that, instead of taking half an hour, it took an hour because he felt he had to stop and recharge.
In a ICE that hour would have been 32 minutes.
If the destination had been an important one, with a deadline such as a missed train, the chances are that in the ICE he would have made it, in the EV he wouldn't 
And you can go on about planning as much as you want..the fact remains that he didn't think he would make the journey with the juice he had left.
The best plans go wrong sometimes.
		
Click to expand...

If you are going for a train that's even worse to leave it so tight.

Every day I go to work I allow 1 hour 30 mins for a 50 min drive just incase of traffic. 

Even if going for a round of golf you wouldn't want to be running down to the tee due to bad planning.

Doesn't hurt being early somewhere.

If you read his post he would have made it anyways he just didn't take the risk


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.
		
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My bladder range is weak anyway so a stop is always on the cards!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			My bladder range is weak anyway so a stop is always on the cards!
		
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Didn't you use the emergency bottle in the boot or the empty Jerry can 🤣


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

If you are doing 1000's of miles a month, don't buy an electric car.
If you can't charge at home or at work, don't buy an electric car.
If you don't want an electric car, don't buy an electric car.
Keep buying new ICE cars for another 9 years and drive them until they fall apart if you want to.

But bear in mind, in 5 years time, charging will only take 10 minutes or less and the range will be over 300 miles.
If you don't believe me, ask Toyota who know a thing or two.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/M...g-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Again, it depends on how far you went before needing to stop. I don't want to elongate journey times beyond what is necessary, and safe, simply because a car isn't up to the job.
		
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You buy the car that suits your situation

A plug in hybrid would suit everyone

Ev suits a lot of people


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

I’m a bit confused at what you are trying to show as better or positive?

Both type of cars will need a fill up on a journey 

My car takes 5 mins to fill to the top to give me another 300 mins 

The electric car was their first 30 mins to give another 60 miles ?

So that would mean I could go for another 250-300 miles with no stops 

The electric car would need to stop for around 2 hours to do the same further journey ?

So tell me why it’s being portrayed as a good thing ?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m a bit confused at what you are trying to show as better or positive?

Both type of cars will need a fill up on a journey 

My car takes 5 mins to fill to the top to give me another 300 mins 

The electric car was their first 30 mins to give another 60 miles ?

So that would mean I could go for another 250-300 miles with no stops 

The electric car would need to stop for around 2 hours to do the same further journey ?

So tell me why it’s being portrayed as a good thing ?
		
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30 mins would give 120 miles at 60% of a 50kw battery.

But then James wouldn't need to top up again if charging at home overnight.

Like having your own slow action petrol pump at home.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			30 mins would give 120 miles at 60% of a 50kw battery.

But then James wouldn't need to top up again if charging at home overnight.

Like having your own slow action petrol pump at home.
		
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5 mins gives me 300 miles without any need to top up over night 

Until quicker charging arrives ( been promised for a while ) , then affordable electric cars will just mainly just used for commuting short journeys for many 

And until they find better cheaper cleaner ways to produce the electricity en mass the environment isnt going to be hugely affected

People want cheaper and affective , doing the job with as little hassle as possible - right now at best a hybrid does that or petrol/diesel - 

There is a long way to go before we see the general public switching to electric cars en mass - a lot of hurdles in the way , and it’s going to take more than ten years


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If you are doing 1000's of miles a month, don't buy an electric car.
If you can't charge at home or at work, don't buy an electric car.
If you don't want an electric car, don't buy an electric car.
Keep buying new ICE cars for another 9 years and drive them until they fall apart if you want to.

But bear in mind, in 5 years time, charging will only take 10 minutes or less and the range will be over 300 miles.
If you don't believe me, ask Toyota who know a thing or two.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/M...g-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

Click to expand...

That would be amazing once that's up and running 

300 miles in a 10 min charge .

Exactly why I'm leasing mine as I don't want to buy it to have it replaced by this not long after 

Look forward to seeing it develop


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			5 mins gives me 300 miles without any need to top up over night 

Until quicker charging arrives ( been promised for a while ) , then affordable electric cars will just mainly just used for commuting short journeys for many 

And until they find better cheaper cleaner ways to produce the electricity en mass the environment isnt going to be hugely affected

People want cheaper and affective , doing the job with as little hassle as possible - right now at best a hybrid does that or petrol/diesel - 

There is a long way to go before we see the general public switching to electric cars en mass - a lot of hurdles in the way , and it’s going to take more than ten years
		
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Plug in hybrids would suit every single household out there . Decent mpg and then when you can charge even better mpg.


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## USER1999 (Dec 27, 2020)

One of my neighbours now has an Audi etron. It's big, it's good looking, it's an Audi, so the indicators won't run down the battery.

It does about 240 miles on a full charge, and cost somewhere between 70k and 100k, if bought, or a small fortune to lease.

I am not seeing much saving going on tbh.


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## Dibby (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If you plan to be somewhere and are 30 mins late because of a stop that's very bad planning you have allowed for nothing to go wrong ..

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail
		
Click to expand...

Preparation is always best, but sometimes the unexpected happens, or things go wrong, for example your child gets ill and you manage to get an emergency doctors appointment, you need a trip to A&E, your Mrs waters break. Even a case such as going to the airport, allowing plenty of time, then realising you forgot the passports, you can't just nip back and get them still making the flight, because you have to wait 30 mins for a charge. 

In a perfect textbook scenario you will be fine with an electric car, but when unexpected situations pop up, ICE is still the best option for now.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Dibby said:



			Preparation is always best, but sometimes the unexpected happens, or things go wrong, for example your child gets ill and you manage to get an emergency doctors appointment, you need a trip to A&E, your Mrs waters break. Even a case such as going to the airport, allowing plenty of time, then realising you forgot the passports, you can't just nip back and get them still making the flight, because you have to wait 30 mins for a charge. 

In a perfect textbook scenario you will be fine with an electric car, but when unexpected situations pop up, ICE is still the best option for now.
		
Click to expand...

However in the airport example how many people drive to the airport? 

Shuttle buses
Trains
Taxis 
Friends dropping them off 

Driving to the airport is a luxury

In all of those situations above like the waters breaking how far is your hospital? Mines 3 miles . Drs is a walk accross the street 

Car would be plugged in fully charged ready to go

Even if I had just got home from work would have enough to get there and back 10 times


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			One of my neighbours now has an Audi etron. It's big, it's good looking, it's an Audi, so the indicators won't run down the battery.

It does about 240 miles on a full charge, and cost somewhere between 70k and 100k, if bought, or a small fortune to lease.

I am not seeing much saving going on tbh.
		
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They’re 500 odd a month on salary sacrifice for three years at my place for the base model. Alloys look pants if it’s the standard one.  Similar price to a Standard Tesla. 
Quick, smart inside but the battery ought to be bigger for such a lump. 
Mate returns about 140miles and swears he doesn’t thrash it. He did try to return it. Has charging ports both sides though which is handy.


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However in the airport example how many people drive to the airport?

Shuttle buses
Trains
Taxis
Friends dropping them off

Driving to the airport is a luxury

In all of those situations above like the waters breaking how far is your hospital? Mines 3 miles . Drs is a walk accross the street

Car would be plugged in fully charged ready to go

Even if I had just got home from work would have enough to get there and back 10 times
		
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WHAT IF IT ISN'T! 
This is the point you're continually deflecting away from.
The reason the range isn't enough doesn't matter. "Why" isn't the point.
You have to be somewhere in an hour and you have to drive there. 
You set off and, for whatever reason, you don't have enough juice to get there.
You have to stop for half an hour to recharge enough to get you there.
And you're going to be late.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			To be the owner of an electric car, then you must observe the 7 P’s

Perfect Preparation & Planning Prevent Pretty Poor Performance.

Q, How did the car get down to only 33 miles range?

A.  Because either you didn’t recharge it last night or because you didn’t factor a recharge into your trip

In other words you messed up 🤭

The range indicator shows the estimated range as you are currently driving it or have recently driven it.

I’ve had cars that say 30 miles range, but the meter is showing half full, so slam it into full eco mode, stop doing a Sterling Moss and you will be surprised how far they will go.

Having said that the AA are now carrying chargers for anyone that gets caught out 👍
		
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The pedal slipped okay! 😭 And no I didn’t charge at home. 

I would of been fine, 12 chargers on the route. And if I’d of bothered to look at usage and abit of math I’d of realised I’d of achieved 45miles range. 

Needless anxiety, but mocha was nice and a successful first charge using CCS.


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

I don't think anyone ever said everyone should buy an EV today.
EVs are not for everyone yet.
Are there limitations, of course there are as with all new technology.
Will these problems be overcome, of course....people are clever.
The 10 minute charge will be the game changer.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			WHAT IF IT ISN'T! 
This is the point you're continually deflecting away from.
The reason the range isn't enough doesn't matter. "Why" isn't the point.
You have to be somewhere in an hour and you have to drive there. 
You set off and, for whatever reason, you don't have enough juice to get there.
You have to stop for half an hour to recharge enough to get you there.
And you're going to be late.
		
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I'm afraid again you have missed the point

People need to change the way they think.

If your an EV owner you make sure your range is ready 

It's why home chargers exist. You charge overnight to make sure you have enough for your needs 

James even said he had enough charge in end

If you can't plan accordingly there not for you 

Plug in hybrids are


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			The pedal slipped okay! 😭 And no I didn’t charge at home. 

I would of been fine, 12 chargers on the route. And if I’d of bothered to look at usage and abit of math I’d of realised I’d of achieved 45miles range. 

Needless anxiety, but mocha was nice and a successful first charge using CCS.
		
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Will have done the battery good aswell


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't think anyone ever said everyone should buy an EV today.
EVs are not for everyone yet.
Are there limitations, of course there are as with all new technology.
Will these problems be overcome, of course....people are clever.
*The 10 minute charge will be the game changer.*

Click to expand...

Surely it depends on affordability - and the quick charging has been in the pipeline or promised for over a decade now. The Tesla was supposed to be the game changer but it hasn’t really been as such

The game gets changed when 

The cars are the same price , give the same performance and reliability, offer the same length of use ( batteries don’t need changing after ten years at high cost ) , and offer the same level of refuelling as petrol/diesel car - I don’t see that being any less than a decade away prob more


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it depends on affordability - and the quick charging has been in the pipeline or promised for over a decade now. The Tesla was supposed to be the game changer but it hasn’t really been as such

The game gets changed when 

The cars are the same price , give the same performance and reliability, offer the same length of use ( batteries don’t need changing after ten years at high cost ) , and offer the same level of refuelling as petrol/diesel car - I don’t see that being any less than a decade away prob more
		
Click to expand...

As Robert Llewellyn says manufacturers are holding it back.

The price of batteries are so much lower now. The e Corsa was his example it doesn't cost what they charge in difference now

They could easily do for a couple of grand more than petrol really making it an option for more.


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it depends on affordability - and the quick charging has been in the pipeline or promised for over a decade now. The Tesla was supposed to be the game changer but it hasn’t really been as such

The game gets changed when

The cars are the same price , give the same performance and reliability, offer the same length of use ( batteries don’t need changing after ten years at high cost ) , and offer the same level of refuelling as petrol/diesel car - I don’t see that being any less than a decade away prob more
		
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I'm sorry, but in my opinion that is all pretty much wrong or old news.
But the good news is you can continue driving your ICE car for another 15-20 years.
My guess is you wont.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, but in my opinion that is all pretty much wrong or old news.
But the good news is you can continue driving your ICE car for another 15-20 years.
My guess is you wont.
		
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What bit is wrong ? 

I have no idea what I’ll be driving but at the moment it won’t be electric because it doesn’t work for me and many will be in the same boat

Until electric is on the same level as petrol car in regards - price , range , same level of refuelling , size , reliability, depreciation- the game won’t change , why would it en mass ?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, but in my opinion that is all pretty much wrong or old news.
But the good news is you can continue driving your ICE car for another 15-20 years.
My guess is you wont.
		
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So many myths about electric cars but it's the same with everything once somebody hears something they don't like that's it they won't change their opinion

That's not exclusive to electric cars that's with most things in life 

If somebody isn't willing to change they will find every excuse not to and if they don't like the new tech they will find any excuse why it's rubbish even if it's wrong 
.

I'll be happy when I get in my car on a cold winters morning at 5am and the windscreen is already clear and the car is about 22 degrees as it has had a precondition rather than waiting 5 mins for it to warm up and be safe to drive .. unless you have s ford ofc who have the amazing quick clear windscreen


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So many myths about electric cars but it's the same with everything once somebody hears something they don't like that's it they won't change their opinion

That's not exclusive to electric cars that's with most things in life

If somebody isn't willing to change they will find every excuse not to and if they don't like the new tech they will find any excuse why it's rubbish even if it's wrong
.

*I'll be happy when I get in my car on a cold winters morning at 5am and the windscreen is already clear and the car is about 22 degrees as it has had a precondition rather than waiting 5 mins for it to warm up and be safe to drive *.. unless you have s ford ofc who have the amazing quick clear windscreen
		
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Yes very nice, but at what cost to your range? 
Asking coz I don’t know , not having a pop 👍


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure someone will be along In a min to poo poo the crazy idea of stopping for a coffee and how if you had a ICE you could keep an emergency supply of fuel in a Jerry can in the boot for such situations.
		
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Not an issue as such but having to do it 20 miles from home???


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes very nice, but at what cost to your range?
Asking coz I don’t know , not having a pop 👍
		
Click to expand...

3% battery/1.38kwh or 7pence if plugged in.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's exactly what I was saying. If you are 30 mins late because you spent 30 mins filling up you left far too late in the first place

You only allowed the exact time to get there.
		
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I don't really want to plan my life around how much range I've got left in my car 🤔


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes very nice, but at what cost to your range? 
Asking coz I don’t know , not having a pop 👍
		
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Zero as it's plugged into the house for that

Infact it adds to your range as it brings the battery to optimum heat


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However in the airport example how many people drive to the airport?

Shuttle buses
Trains
Taxis
Friends dropping them off

Driving to the airport is a luxury

In all of those situations above like the waters breaking how far is your hospital? Mines 3 miles . Drs is a walk accross the street

Car would be plugged in fully charged ready to go

Even if I had just got home from work would have enough to get there and back 10 times
		
Click to expand...

What about those of us who live in more rural settings?

No trains, few buses, limited taxi availability etc;

Fortunately I am of an age where the ICE will see me out.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I don't really want to plan my life around how much range I've got left in my car 🤔
		
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You won't have to by time you have to change dw.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			What about those of us who live in more rural settings?

No trains, few buses, limited taxi availability etc;

Fortunately I am of an age where the ICE will see me out.
		
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I doubt you would drive back for a passport and still make the plane which was the example given 

So moot point


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## Dibby (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However in the airport example how many people drive to the airport?

Shuttle buses
Trains
Taxis
Friends dropping them off

Driving to the airport is a luxury

In all of those situations above like the waters breaking how far is your hospital? Mines 3 miles . Drs is a walk accross the street

Car would be plugged in fully charged ready to go

Even if I had just got home from work would have enough to get there and back 10 times
		
Click to expand...

So you have to own a car, but plan carefully to not use it all the time, or only at the perfect times? What next, you buy a dog, but bark yourself?

What you are failing to see here is that not everyone's use case is the same as yours. For example my nearest hospital is just over 15 miles away. I'm glad the electric car setup works for you, but until you can see that it's not a solution for everyone, and may not be the ultimate solution to environmentally friendly motoring, you just come across as very blinkered.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So many myths about electric cars but it's the same with everything once somebody hears something they don't like that's it they won't change their opinion

That's not exclusive to electric cars that's with most things in life

If somebody isn't willing to change they will find every excuse not to and if they don't like the new tech they will find any excuse why it's rubbish even if it's wrong
.

I'll be happy when I get in my car on a cold winters morning at 5am and the windscreen is already clear and the car is about 22 degrees as it has had a precondition rather than waiting 5 mins for it to warm up and be safe to drive .. unless you have s ford ofc who have the amazing quick clear windscreen
		
Click to expand...

It’s not about myths or finding excuses or dismissing things

It’s about affordability, practical , usage

Right now most can buy a car and they know exactly what it offers them , they know it will go a certain distance on a tank and that it takes 5 mins to refuel , it’s going to last them 20 years - it’s solid and reliable

Until an electric car can do the exact same thing for the same cost maybe cheaper and give them the same level of service that everyone wants ( not just a small percentage) without hassles then an electric car isn’t going to be to be for many people yet

right now it’s not cost affective , it’s not practical , it doesn’t give people the same confidence and ease of live that a bog standard petrol car gives people. And that’s not including the driving expirence that many enjoy 

If your big selling point is getting into a warm car instead of waiting a couple mins then it’s not really the big selling point that’s going to make people forget about all the other negatives


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

I think the bottom line is EVs work well if you live in a built up area or only do short journeys. At the moment ICE is better for everything else. 
Ironically, an EV would suit my needs perfectly now I'm not commuting anymore but I love the driving experience of my current car so it's a no from me.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Dibby said:



			So you have to own a car, but plan carefully to not use it all the time, or only at the perfect times? What next, you buy a dog, but bark yourself?

What you are failing to see here is that not everyone's use case is the same as yours. For example my nearest hospital is just over 15 miles away. I'm glad the electric car setup works for you, but until you can see that it's not a solution for everyone, and may not be the ultimate solution to environmentally friendly motoring, you just come across as very blinkered.
		
Click to expand...

I've said from day one one it's not for everyone

What I was saying to James is how ice drivers just jump on any negative like his post about his first worry about range 

Which has highlighted today .. everyone saying it's not ready blah blah with every excuse 

It's not for everyone . 10 years is a long time and you can still own ice cars for ages .... 

2045 there will still be ice cars on road. But more and more electric cars will be rolled out


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I think the bottom line is EVs work well if you live in a built up area or only do short journeys. At the moment ICE is better for everything else. 
Ironically, an EV would suit my needs perfectly now I'm not commuting anymore but I love the driving experience of my current car so it's a no from me.
		
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If someone gave you a telsa though bet you would love the driving experience of that! 0-60 in 3 seconds 

The Corsa even does 0-30 in 3 seconds


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## Dibby (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I've said from day one one it's not for everyone

What I was saying to James is how ice drivers just jump on any negative like his post about his first worry about range

Which has highlighted today .. everyone saying it's not ready blah blah with every excuse

It's not for everyone . 10 years is a long time and you can still own ice cars for ages ....

2045 there will still be ice cars on road. But more and more electric cars will be rolled out
		
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Range is less of a worry, than ease (what do those with no off street parking do?) and speed to top up range (sure you can get 75% or whatever in 30 mins, but thats still 25 mins longer than it takes to get 100% right now, so it is a step back however you want to frame it). That's the biggest problem to solve to get true mass adoption.

I've nothing against EV's really, I just think they get too much attention as a solution to being greener, compared to things like hydrogen, synthetic fuels, emission capturing technology and whatever else may be out there.

This is why banning ICE sales seems shortsighted to me as if they could be scaled up synthetic fuels would be the ultimate right now - you capture carbon making them, release it when burning them and recapture to make them again, making them carbon neutral and with the bonus of no requirements for change in user behaviour, infrastructure, scrapping loads of perfectly good vehicles etc... Combine this with emissions capture tech and the benefit is even greater.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Dibby said:



			Range is less of a worry, than ease (what do those with no off street parking do?) and speed to top up range (sure you can get 75% or whatever in 30 mins, but thats still 25 mins longer than it takes to get 100% right now, so it is a step back however you want to frame it). That's the biggest problem to solve to get true mass adoption.

I've nothing against EV's really, I just think they get too much attention as a solution to being greener, compared to things like hydrogen, synthetic fuels, emission capturing technology and whatever else may be out there.

This is why banning ICE sales seems shortsighted to me as if they could be scaled up synthetic fuels would be the ultimate right now - you capture carbon making them, release it when burning them and recapture to make them again, making them carbon neutral and with the bonus of no requirements for change in user behaviour, infrastructure, scrapping loads of perfectly good vehicles etc... Combine this with emissions capture tech and the benefit is even greater.
		
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I think they get pushing because they have been solved as a solution if that makes sense? Like hydrogen is brilliant. Amazing however they can't get the storage right .. where as electric is like a complete tech so their pushing it

Barnet council did an interesting one every ev owner who didn't have a driveway they installed a charger on the lamppost in the road .. clever idea


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 27, 2020)

In 10 yrs time those in power will have realised EV isn't the answer, hyrdrogen fuel cells are which is why most manufacturers are holding back on EV because they know the awkward truth the evangelicals don't want to hear.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If someone gave you a telsa though bet you would love the driving experience of that! 0-60 in 3 seconds

The Corsa even does 0-30 in 3 seconds
		
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If I had that sort of budget I'd buy a 911 turbo S that does 0-60 in 2.5 secs. My current car will do it in sub 4.5 secs anyway so I can live with that 😁


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			In 10 yrs time those in power will have realised EV isn't the answer, hyrdrogen fuel cells are which is why most manufacturers are holding back on EV because they know the awkward truth the evangelicals don't want to hear.
		
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The future is both

Ev is great for town driving 

Hydrogen great for other things once they crack it 

Plug in hybrids are the bridge for now .. charge at home or shopping .. some do 40 miles on a charge which is great for school run mum's , some workers .. and for those who don't use it to get up to 150mpg


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			In 10 yrs time those in power will have realised EV isn't the answer, hyrdrogen fuel cells are which is why most manufacturers are holding back on EV because they know the awkward truth the evangelicals don't want to hear.
		
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How much would hydrogen cost at the pumps and what woud be the equivalent mpg be compared to an ICE car or an EV?


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How much would hydrogen cost at the pumps and what woud be the equivalent mpg be compared to an ICE car or an EV?
		
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How much is the cost to charge your car when  more have EV's and the tax free incentives are removed and the  farm fields that are being turned over to solar farms, because obviosuly we don't need food and can buy it cheaper from the continent?
The answer is you don't know, and nor does anyone else. You're just assuming electirc is going to remain as cheap as it currently is, which as you well know is highly unlikely.


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			If I had that sort of budget I'd buy a 911 turbo S that does 0-60 in 2.5 secs. My current car will do it in sub 4.5 secs anyway so I can live with that 😁
		
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Would you get the wife, the kids and a weeks shopping in a Porsche 911 turbo S
And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 911 turbo STARTS at £134,400 and 340 miles on a full tank (£80)
The Tesla model 3 performance is £56,490 and has a range of 352 miles.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I doubt you would drive back for a passport and still make the plane which was the example given

So moot point
		
Click to expand...

No.

The point is that you seem to be making the assumption that we all live in urban/suburban environments.

Many of us don't and, therefore, find the "advantages " of EV's rather limited. 

Now if the move is made to hydrogen cells as motive power the story may be different.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			No.

The point is that you seem to be making the assumption that we all live in urban/suburban environments.

Many of us don't and, therefore, find the "advantages " of EV's rather limited. 

Now if the move is made to hydrogen cells as motive power the story may be different.
		
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Yet everyone in the country could move to plug in hybrids in 2034 .. they will be around years and can be run without charging them at all if people can't charge them 

So there is a solution for everyone until hydrogen is ready


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

I've just realised, the more people that drive ICE cars, the more money the govt get in fuel/road tax the longer EV drivers get free road tax/incentives.
I'll shut up now.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I've just realised, the more people that drive ICE cars, the more money the govt get in fuel/road tax the longer EV drivers get free road tax/incentives.
I'll shut up now.  

Click to expand...

If you truly believe that then you will believe anything 😉


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I think the bottom line is *EVs work well if you live in a built up area* or only do short journeys. At the moment ICE is better for everything else.
Ironically, an EV would suit my needs perfectly now I'm not commuting anymore but I love the driving experience of my current car so it's a no from me.
		
Click to expand...

But only if you live in the part of the built up area that means you've got guaranteed access to a charger; so not on the 15th floor of a high rise or if you have to park on street.  And not unless you are prepared to pay considerably more to start with for the EV over the equivalent ICE vehicle, and that assumes that there is an equivalent EV.

If and when the infrastructure gets here (and in terms of charging in a number of areas I can never see that being achieved), if and when they are more environmentally friendly cradle to grave, if and when they have the same capabilities as an ICE vehicle in terms of range & refilling, and if and when there is no significant price penalty for purchasing an EV then and only then will the majority start considering them.  But  given the costs of the infrastructure & the costs of the current pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised to see the date change when Rishi Sunak does his sums and sees how much it's going to cost.


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## USER1999 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			If I had that sort of budget I'd buy a 911 turbo S that does 0-60 in 2.5 secs. My current car will do it in sub 4.5 secs anyway so I can live with that 😁
		
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Another advantage is that the 911 turbo that one of my golf partners has, also does the preconditioning thing from an app, and he can go out to a warm car in the morning.

Well, he could, but it is so noisy that the neighbours have asked him not to use it.


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## USER1999 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If someone gave you a telsa though bet you would love the driving experience of that! 0-60 in 3 seconds

The Corsa even does 0-30 in 3 seconds
		
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You do realise that a fun car to drive isn't just about how fast it can get to 60? (Or 30 in your case). It's about the whole experience. Speed is only a small part of it.
A Tesla is a barge, model X, S, or 3, and corners like one. It also has no gear box to shift, no engine or exhaust note, and certainly no character.
One of the reasons why Ferrari have said they will never do a full EV. They all drive the same, and you can't add the Ferrari character to one.

Plug in hybrids are rubbish too. They do worse mpg than a standard diesel, and you are lugging pointless batteries around, accelerating brake and tyre wear.

Just my view, other views are available.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			You do realise that a fun car to drive isn't just about how fast it can get to 60? (Or 30 in your case). It's about the whole experience. Speed is only a small part of it.
A Tesla is a barge, model X, S, or 3, and corners like one. It also has no gear box to shift, no engine or exhaust note, and certainly no character.
One of the reasons why Ferrari have said they will never do a full EV. They all drive the same, and you can't add the Ferrari character to one.

Plug in hybrids are rubbish too. They do worse mpg than a standard diesel, and you are lugging pointless batteries around, accelerating brake and tyre wear.

Just my view, other views are available.
		
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Whilst your diesel point is valid the point is they are being banned for sale from new so we have to find something different 

Even plug in is being banned 

Don't get me wrong I love driving diesels


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			But only if you live in the part of the built up area that means you've got guaranteed access to a charger; so not on the 15th floor of a high rise or if you have to park on street.  And not unless you are prepared to pay considerably more to start with for the EV over the equivalent ICE vehicle, and that assumes that there is an equivalent EV.

If and when the infrastructure gets here (and in terms of charging in a number of areas I can never see that being achieved), if and when they are more environmentally friendly cradle to grave, if and when they have the same capabilities as an ICE vehicle in terms of range & refilling, and if and when there is no significant price penalty for purchasing an EV then and only then will the majority start considering them.  But  given the costs of the infrastructure & the costs of the current pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised to see the date change when Rishi Sunak does his sums and sees how much it's going to cost.
		
Click to expand...

I've got a driveway, sod the rest of you 🖕😂


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I think the bottom line is EVs work well if you live in a built up area or only do short journeys. At the moment ICE is better for everything else.
Ironically, an EV would suit my needs perfectly now I'm not commuting anymore but I love the driving experience of my current car so it's a no from me.
		
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You’d be surprised the amount of chargers and where they are! They are everywhere you just have to look! 
A screenshot of the most desolate places in Britain. Orange markers are rapids. 
It’d be hard to run out of power unless someone’s a complete numpty.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Would you get the wife, the kids and a weeks shopping in a Porsche 911 turbo S
And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 911 turbo STARTS at £134,400 and 340 miles on a full tank (£80)
The Tesla model 3 performance is £56,490 and has a range of 352 miles.
		
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I don't have to worry about fitting in kids and I accept your point about having the same range. The Porsche can refuel in 5 mins though and is never far away from a working petrol station.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I don't have to worry about fitting in kids and I accept your point about having the same range. The Porsche can refuel in 5 mins though and is never far away from a working petrol station.
		
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For now 

What will be interesting is how many petrol stations will be open in the future ... Less demand and all that 

I know a lot of independent petrol stations closed during lockdown first time round


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			For now

What will be interesting is how many petrol stations will be open in the future ... Less demand and all that

I know a lot of independent petrol stations closed during lockdown first time round
		
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I get what you are saying but I'm not planning my drives 10 years in advance.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I get what you are saying but I'm not planning my drives 10 years in advance.
		
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It's just what works for people.

I've got 2 cars in our house one is the family car which is diesel but for work makes so much sense to go electric ..

Good lease price , check 
Cheap to run (for now) check 
No congestion charge if it gets pushed out to north circular , check 

4 year lease .. don't want to commit to buy incase it turns out electric fails or they bring out the super batteries 

Second car households where one is a little run around if people can do it should do it makes so much sense 

Costing me what £275 a month for 4 years plus £850 down .. I'll save about 5k in fuel 

Will do for now 

Would love a telsa but the cost just put me off .. £500 per month minimum


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I don't have to worry about fitting in kids and I accept your point about having the same range. The Porsche can refuel in 5 mins though and is never far away from a working petrol station.
		
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Ok a couple of friends plus clubs and trolleys plus luggage, not to mention a saving of *£78,000* and you can charge it on your drive


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ok a couple of friends plus clubs and trolleys plus luggage, not to mention a saving of *£78,000* and you can charge it on your drive
		
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The bit about the 0-60 times came when someone quoted 3secs. To get that you need the top of the range model S or X which are around £100k.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The bit about the 0-60 times came when someone quoted 3secs. To get that you need the top of the range model S or X which are around £100k.
		
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To be fair I also said given to you rather than buying lol


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The bit about the 0-60 times came when someone quoted 3secs. To get that you need the top of the range model S or X which are around £100k.
		
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Tesla Model 3 performance £56,490,   0-60....3.1 secs

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/model3/design#battery


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Tesla Model 3 performance £56,490,   0-60....3.1 secs

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/model3/design#battery

Click to expand...

Fair enough I stand corrected. I'd still pick a performance ICE car though for a more engaging driving experience.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Fair enough I stand corrected. I'd still pick a performance ICE car though for a more engaging driving experience.
		
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Apparently they are a cracking drive 

And instant power from EV cars etc


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 27, 2020)

Heard an interesting piece quoting the top man at Toyota. 

Whilst he acknowledged the progress being made with battery technology he cannot see EV's making the big breakthrough until the cost to the consumer reduces by approx 30% in real terms. 

I must admit that together with questions over range the cost of the vehicles deters me from considering full electric. 

I would be prepared to consider some form of hybrid but getting over 40 mpg from petrol means I'm slightly less bothered by savings in running costs.

And I will never have another diesel.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Heard an interesting piece quoting the top man at Toyota. 

Whilst he acknowledged the progress being made with battery technology he cannot see EV's making the big breakthrough until the cost to the consumer reduces by approx 30% in real terms. 

I must admit that together with questions over range the cost of the vehicles deters me from considering full electric. 

I would be prepared to consider some form of hybrid but getting over 40 mpg from petrol means I'm slightly less bothered by savings in running costs.

And I will never have another diesel.
		
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I had a soft hybrid as they call them sometimes 

I got 55-65mpg which was brilliant 

Plug ins are suppose to be good

I'd considering one now I have a home charger 

One full EV that I could charge most nights then every few nights charge the plug in 

That would be good


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 29, 2020)

I won’t be buying one for a while,But I recently went in a Jaguar (i pace I think)Acceleration is crazy 🤯.


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## Sats (Dec 29, 2020)

Yep BUT the two electric cars I want are proper bucks - Porsche Taycan Turbo S or the Audi E Tron GT both around £130k - £160k


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## pool888 (Dec 30, 2020)

Sorry haven't got time to read all 26 pages to see what all has already been spoken about. I've had a Model 3 Performance for around 8 months if you have any questions.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

pool888 said:



			Sorry haven't got time to read all 26 pages to see what all has already been spoken about. I've had a Model 3 Performance for around 8 months if you have any questions.
		
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Basically arguments from both sides about how they aren't for everyone 

Some strong ice saying their poor some strong ev saying their good 

Etc 

And repeat


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## pauljames87 (Dec 31, 2020)

Was freezing this morning when I was leaving work 

I was a bit gutted the Corsa isn't here yet .. could have preheated no de icing 

But then decided to fill up on way home.. yes took 5 mins .. no big deal but i was standing their freezing thinking couple weeks can just plug in at home and forget about it

Defo convenience for me


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## bobmac (Jan 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I was a bit gutted the Corsa isn't here yet .. could have preheated no de icing
		
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Or you could do what some folk do and start the car and leave it running for 10-15 minutes while it defrosts


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## Ross61 (Jan 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Or you could do what some folk do and start the car and leave it running for 10-15 minutes while it defrosts

Click to expand...

And then watch some low life drive their car away


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 1, 2021)

Was proper stitched up yesterday (New Years eve)

Was tasked with taking an electric Vehicle from a dealership to a auction prep centre,  only 23 miles, but the car was given to me with only 9 miles range, and no rapid chargers on site.

Great Thanks guys

Anyway a quick search of the BP Chargemaster app revealed a rapid charger a short distance away at a Toby Carvery, great I thought, went there, car park closed off, no entry to the charger area.

The app revealed another one at a Holiday inn a couple of miles away.  got there with 5 miles left thinking if this one wasnt available then I’d have to take it back to base.Fortunately it was ok and a 25 minute charge got me a 40 mile range.

However because the charge was still low, the car wouldn’t come out of full eco mode, so no heating and was freezing my nuts off when I got to Slough.

If dealerships want their E vehicles moved, they need to check the previous day that there is enough charge in them

new working protocols being suggested to my boss.  😠


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## OnTour (Jan 1, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Sorry haven't got time to read all 26 pages to see what all has already been spoken about. I've had a Model 3 Performance for around 8 months if you have any questions.
		
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And you still have your licence  crazy fast absolute stunning car, wish I did the mileage to warrant 40k+ TM3 so smooth. enjoy pal


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## OnTour (Jan 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I had a soft hybrid as they call them sometimes

I got 55-65mpg which was brilliant

Plug ins are suppose to be good

I'd considering one now I have a home charger

One full EV that I could charge most nights then every few nights charge the plug in

That would be good
		
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Wifes Yaris hybrid does 55mpg on the dashboard computer, battery hardly gets used unless in traffic. 

Plug in's I've tried the volvo diesel plug in 3 years old with 40k battery lasts for 20 miles and MPG was 45 Outlander 4 years old 50k again 20 miles if lucky and mileage the same. 

 My view hybrids and plug in's are a plain scam to make you think your doing something for the world, your not it's lining the pockets of the car manufacturers again, full EV only route if you want the real deal Xpeng G3 hopefully the XIAOMI of the EV world, flagship with realistic costs. Norway have the first batch outside of China. 

Great if Tesla had a crack at a small car for the masses soon  2 years till I'm fifty TM3 is on the cards (late life crisis purchase)


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## IainP (Jan 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Or you could do what some folk do and start the car and leave it running for 10-15 minutes while it defrosts

Click to expand...

For many years I did what my father did. Extension lead and a fan heater. Pop it in the car, have breakfast, drive off in a toasty car 👍
My 2012 old style hybrid has the ability to heat up at a set time though, when I can be  bothered.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2021)

I had two hot water bottles coming off nights.
One on the dashboard to defrost the screen one on the drivers seat.
Five mins before clocking off was all it took to soften the ice for the wipers to clear it.
The good old days.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 1, 2021)

I am very interested in the BMW i4 that is due 2022. The mooted i4 M50 variant looks very attractive and if the early renderings are accurate then its finally a good looking fully EV that will be, whilst still expensive, not quite in Model S or X territory. 

Caveat on that is that all details are sketchy at best for now so prices are speculative.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 1, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The app revealed another one at a Holiday inn a couple of miles away.  got there with 5 miles left thinking if this one wasnt available then I’d have to take it back to base.Fortunately it was ok and a 25 minute charge got me a 40 mile range.
However because the charge was still low, the car wouldn’t come out of full eco mode, so no heating and was freezing my nuts off when I got to Slough.
		
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So is this normal?.....once you get to a certain batery level all the extra's are turned off?
So all this "it's got this range" is really cobblers then because they are ignoring the fact the heating/aircon/heated seat/mirrors etc all won't work once the battery gets down to 30% or so


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 1, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So is this normal?.....once you get to a certain batery level all the extra's are turned off?
So all this "it's got this range" is really cobblers then because they are ignoring the fact the heating/aircon/heated seat/mirrors etc all won't work once the battery gets down to 30% or so
		
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Depends on the model, but most will force you into full Eco mode when the charge gets below a certain level


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Was freezing this morning when I was leaving work

I was a bit gutted the Corsa isn't here yet .. could have preheated no de icing

But then decided to fill up on way home.. yes took 5 mins .. no big deal but i was standing their freezing thinking couple weeks can just plug in at home and forget about it

Defo convenience for me
		
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It was a nightmare this morning , car frozen over.  Turn engine on - front and rear heat on , spray windows with de icer , get in car , nice and warm and on my way in 5 mins Max . Topped car up with a full tank in 5 mins , all done and dusted with little hassle. Nice and simple , no need to plug in car , wait around , get a power point installed at cost.

Is that what an electric car all about now - being warm when you get in it ?!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a nightmare this morning , car frozen over.  Turn engine on - front and rear heat on , spray windows with de icer , get in car , nice and warm and on my way in 5 mins Max . Topped car up with a full tank in 5 mins , all done and dusted with little hassle. Nice and simple , no need to plug in car , wait around , get a power point installed at cost.

Is that what an electric car all about now - being warm when you get in it ?!
		
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Ofc not. It's a nice little bonus/ time saver 

PowerPoint installed at cost .. bearly any cost. £500. Now it's there I can use forever. £100 pm saving on petrol by using the electric

Paid for itself by June.

Also yesterday's example. Been up since 5:30 am the 30th

Done my 10 hour night shift 
So was my 26th hour of being awake 

Could have done without it


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## bobmac (Jan 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a nightmare this morning , car frozen over.  Turn engine on - front and rear heat on , spray windows with de icer , get in car , nice and warm and on my way in 5 mins Max . Topped car up with a full tank in 5 mins , all done and dusted with little hassle. Nice and simple , no need to plug in car , wait around , get a power point installed at cost.

Is that what an electric car all about now - being warm when you get in it ?!
		
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How much does a full tank cost you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How much does a full tank cost you?
		
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About £43 and will last me about 4 weeks


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## pauljames87 (Jan 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			About £43 and will last me about 4 weeks
		
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And how much per day to get to work or per mile

My 50 mile round trip

Less than £1 a day compared to £6 ATM


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			And how much per day to get to work or per mile

My 50 mile round trip

Less than £1 a day compared to £6 ATM
		
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I work from home so it costs me zero - just need to get to shops and golf club , it’s also in a car significantly cheaper than the equivalent electric car


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## pauljames87 (Jan 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I work from home so it costs me zero - just need to get to shops and golf club , it’s also in a car significantly cheaper than the equivalent electric car
		
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So really.. the initial question of would you buy an electric car the answer is

Doesn't suit me ATM

Thank you for your input

Price of car .. not always relevent either as people drive around in jags.. they could drive fords.


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## bobmac (Jan 1, 2021)

The average cost of driving an EV, based on 14p per KWh is 4p per mile
Off peak electricity is 5p per KWh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The average cost of driving an EV, based on 14p per KWh is 4p per mile
Off peak electricity is 5p per KWh.
		
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But how much extra is the car compared to the equivalent petrol/deseil car ? From what I looked at it’s approx £10k more expensive, lease about £100 a month more maybe more - so for some it’s more expensive to have an electric car


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a nightmare this morning , car frozen over.  Turn engine on - front and rear heat on , spray windows with de icer , get in car , nice and warm and on my way in 5 mins Max . Topped car up with a full tank in 5 mins , all done and dusted with little hassle. Nice and simple , no need to plug in car , wait around , get a power point installed at cost.

Is that what an electric car all about now - being warm when you get in it ?!
		
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It was nice to start the preconditioning on the 14th and get in a warm car after a freezing 18 holes I can tell you!


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## USER1999 (Jan 1, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It was nice to start the preconditioning on the 14th and get in a warm car after a freezing 18 holes I can tell you!
		
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I jumped in mine after 18 holes, and put the roof down.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 1, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I jumped in mine after 18 holes, and put the roof down.
		
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When was that? 4 months ago?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 1, 2021)

I'm a self confessed petrol (actually diesel) head. I think some EV's are great and will certainly consider one in the future but right now I'm perfectly happy with what I've got.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 1, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm a self confessed petrol (actually diesel) head. I think some EV's are great and will certainly consider one in the future but right now I'm perfectly happy with what I've got.
		
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Which is perfectly fine, gives chance for tech to advance further ..

I love My diesel which I'll keep for 10 years until the kids are out of car seats ..

But the second car might aswell be electric


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## USER1999 (Jan 1, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			When was that? 4 months ago?
		
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No, today, yesterday, the day before. It's not that cold.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 1, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			No, today, yesterday, the day before. It's not that cold.
		
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Yes I guess. But your not playing golf when your car could be frosty 😂


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## OnTour (Jan 3, 2021)

Covid petrol MPG £10 last 4 weeks - no saving on electric at current usage. 

I do miss my ZOE 22kw and the 70 mile winter range  drive 15 miles to golf club use Best Western charger return to full tank   pre heating was OK till the subscription runs out then it's 100% not worth the investment for a hit n miss app service I hope it's got better in 15 months since mine went.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 3, 2021)

OnTour said:



			pre heating was OK till the subscription runs out then it's 100% not worth the investment for a hit n miss app service I hope it's got better in 15 months since mine went.
		
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Are you saying it's not something the car can do free of charge?
If so, it's strange how no mention of that has been made


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Are you saying it's not something the car can do free of charge?
If so, it's strange how no mention of that has been made

Click to expand...

They are free of charge now . Well mine is

Also I can program it from the car aswell as the app so can set it to auto do mornings. No charge for that

Zoe not sure but I'd guess free now. Like the rest

With VauxhallConnect you have services included for 10 years and the ability to buy services according your demand and availability. Services which are included and without any further payment are for example e-call, b-call, Vehicle Status & Information, Remote services, Trip & Drive Management. Live Navigation is included for 3 years free of charge. A service requiring additional payment is for example Road Safety Alerts (note: Service Road Safety Alerts is not available in Germany and Switzerland).

For example they don't charge for certain things but most these 3 year apps are sat nav updates 

I prefer using andriod auto to get free Google maps


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## spongebob59 (Jan 3, 2021)

Made me chuckle 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345769927488262146


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Will start with it's not for everyone but suits me




Car arrived Thursday, all set up now ready 




App is operational (free for life ) gives me options for deffering charge and pre heating. Both can be done via the car itself but this sends to car remotely a lot easier.

Setting the car to deffer charge when plugging cable in is easy, one button when you plug in next to the socket 




Battery info and charge control, the range is off as I been sitting in it playing around / only been short trips ATM 




Preconditioning schedules or can just hit activate




First charge overnight .. arrived with approx half battery so charged it in the cheap times £1.24




This is an app I use to track my electric usage, can see it hammers the night times (even before we have a oil heater in twins room, dishwasher, and washing machine on timers for the cheaper times)

Last week I drove the seat in every day £35 worth of fuel (actually measured as I filled it up the last day on way home to see how long it's going to last) so £7 a day 

This returns roughly 3.5-3.8 miles per kw but going for 3.5 as it's winter , do 2 days so 100 miles will use 29 kw £1.50 for the 2 days .. over a week almost £5 . £30 saving 

Nights ofc will cost me more £4 for 2 days fuel as unable to charge at cheap times as wil be working 

Averages out though, nights every 7 weeks 

Once again will finish with appreciate not everyone can , will, wants to, is able to, etc but suits me perfect


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## pool888 (Jan 23, 2021)

Just moved away from Agile, the prices have been a bit crazy lately, many hours at 35p kw/h. When we joined it was really cheap especially at the March lockdown time but has got increasingly expensive since then, we were paying more than a standard tariff at the end. Moved to Go Faster which will be less stressful as it hardly ever goes under 5p lately and it's just a normal price at other times. You have to take the good with the bad with Agile, there was several times we were paid to charge the car, sometimes paying us over 25p kw/h.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Just moved away from Agile, the prices have been a bit crazy lately, many hours at 35p kw/h. When we joined it was really cheap especially at the March lockdown time but has got increasingly expensive since then, we were paying more than a standard tariff at the end. Moved to Go Faster which will be less stressful as it hardly ever goes under 5p lately and it's just a normal price at other times. You have to take the good with the bad with Agile, there was several times we were paid to charge the car, sometimes paying us over 25p kw/h.
		
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Yeah i went straight onto go. That chart only mentions agile as the best app to compare is a development app that simply compares your daily use between go and agile saying which one was cheaper 

Go is cheaper by a way, even before the car arrived I was saving most the time due to our usage of washing machine


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2021)

Am I write in reading 95% charge and 130 mile range? Is that the range you expected?

Please keep posting,  let us know the real range, not just theoretical. Like with petrol / diesel cars it's interesting to know the real world figures, not the fantasy ones.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Am I write in reading 95% charge and 130 mile range? Is that the range you expected?

Please keep posting,  let us know the real range, not just theoretical. Like with petrol / diesel cars it's interesting to know the real world figures, not the fantasy ones.
		
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It's out ATM, I'd expect at least 150 in winter 

It was driven 162 from Kidderminster to me the other day then topped up to half charge by the guy 

The range prediction is poor, I'll admit it just doesn't update for ages , much like the one in my old car , I knew I could get 350-400 miles from tank but predicted better or worse at random 

He said it started off at 130 miles and he drove 50 miles then still was 130 miles 

It goes on driving style, temp outside etc 

Ill see what % I have left after 2 trips to work without charging


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## srixon 1 (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Was proper stitched up yesterday (New Years eve)

Was tasked with taking an electric Vehicle from a dealership to a auction prep centre,  only 23 miles, but the car was given to me with only 9 miles range, and no rapid chargers on site.

Great Thanks guys

Anyway a quick search of the BP Chargemaster app revealed a rapid charger a short distance away at a Toby Carvery, great I thought, went there, car park closed off, no entry to the charger area.

The app revealed another one at a Holiday inn a couple of miles away.  got there with 5 miles left thinking if this one wasnt available then I’d have to take it back to base.Fortunately it was ok and a 25 minute charge got me a 40 mile range.

However because the charge was still low, the car wouldn’t come out of full eco mode, so no heating and was freezing my nuts off when I got to Slough.

If dealerships want their E vehicles moved, they need to check the previous day that there is enough charge in them

new working protocols being suggested to my boss.  😠
		
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How does the heater work, some kind of electric fan heater I imagine. In cold weather, how much energy does this heater take out of the battery?


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## pool888 (Jan 23, 2021)

There are 3 main reasons for poor range in winter, 1. battery efficiency is poorer in low temperatures 2. road and weather conditions cause more resistance and 3. heating!!. I doubt the Corsa will have a heat pump? My Tesla 3 Performance uses around 285 watts/mile in the summer and 335 watts/mile in the winter, so around 310 watts/mile year average (pre heat pump model). Short journeys are the killer in winter, but this can be said for combustion cars too, they also give less MPG in the winter but due to the greater range it's not so noticeable. I believe the Tesla 3 fan heater can use up to 7Kw/h on max heating! The 2021 model with the heat pump is much more efficient. If driving solo it's more efficient to use the heated seat and keep the temperature as low as you're comfortable with, but you don't spend a lot of money on a new car to freeze and electricity is very cheap if home charging so no need to worry about it unless you're desperate for the range.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

pool888 said:



			There are 3 main reasons for poor range in winter, 1. battery efficiency is poorer in low temperatures 2. road and weather conditions cause more resistance and 3. heating!!. I doubt the Corsa will have a heat pump? My Tesla 3 Performance uses around 285 watts/mile in the summer and 335 watts/mile in the winter, so around 310 watts/mile year average (pre heat pump model). Short journeys are the killer in winter, but this can be said for combustion cars too, they also give less MPG in the winter but due to the greater range it's not so noticeable. I believe the Tesla 3 fan heater can use up to 7Kw/h on max heating! The 2021 model with the heat pump is much more efficient. If driving solo it's more efficient to use the heated seat and keep the temperature as low as you're comfortable with, but you don't spend a lot of money on a new car to freeze and electricity is very cheap if home charging so no need to worry about it unless you're desperate for the range.
		
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When I ordered it I was told heated steering wheel . Couldn't for the life figure what the point was 

Apparently like you say use heated seats but also use that  steering wheel and then use the air con on a much lower temperature


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

pool888 said:



			There are 3 main reasons for poor range in winter, 1. battery efficiency is poorer in low temperatures 2. road and weather conditions cause more resistance and 3. heating!!. I doubt the Corsa will have a heat pump? My Tesla 3 Performance uses around 285 watts/mile in the summer and 335 watts/mile in the winter, so around 310 watts/mile year average (pre heat pump model). Short journeys are the killer in winter, but this can be said for combustion cars too, they also give less MPG in the winter but due to the greater range it's not so noticeable. I believe the Tesla 3 fan heater can use up to 7Kw/h on max heating! The 2021 model with the heat pump is much more efficient. If driving solo it's more efficient to use the heated seat and keep the temperature as low as you're comfortable with, but you don't spend a lot of money on a new car to freeze and electricity is very cheap if home charging so no need to worry about it unless you're desperate for the range.
		
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I found this about the Corsa 

Furthermore, instead of a conventional HVAC (heating ventilation air conditioning) system, the Corsa-e uses a heat pump to warm and cool the interior, delivering even more efficiency.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's out ATM, I'd expect at least 150 in winter

It was driven 162 from Kidderminster to me the other day then topped up to half charge by the guy

The range prediction is poor, I'll admit it just doesn't update for ages , much like the one in my old car , I knew I could get 350-400 miles from tank but predicted better or worse at random

He said it started off at 130 miles and he drove 50 miles then still was 130 miles

It goes on driving style, temp outside etc

Ill see what % I have left after 2 trips to work without charging
		
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150miles certainly achievable. The two trips consumption averaged at 158miles range today. The trip back consumption equates to 167 miles.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



View attachment 34668



150miles certainly achievable. The two trips consumption averaged at 158miles range today. The trip back consumption equates to 167 miles.
		
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Nice , yeah I'm taking it out tomorrow for a short trip but then Monday Tuesday I'm going to try and do without charging 

Pre conditioning have you found you can plug in (deferring charge to a time past when you would be leaving) then it takes from the house not the battery? Just wondering as I've seen conflicting information as to how it powers it


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nice , yeah I'm taking it out tomorrow for a short trip but then Monday Tuesday I'm going to try and do without charging

Pre conditioning have you found you can plug in (deferring charge to a time past when you would be leaving) then it takes from the house not the battery? Just wondering as I've seen conflicting information as to how it powers it
		
Click to expand...






There the only two charges I’ve got with pre conditioning while charging. The first one being a deferred charge. The other not. 
There’s evidence that it does but would have to pre con in the middle of a charge rather than the end to see properly.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



View attachment 34669
View attachment 34670


There the only two charges I’ve got with pre conditioning while charging. The first one being a deferred charge. The other not. 
There’s evidence that it does but would have to pre con in the middle of a charge rather than the end to see properly.
		
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Ive got it set for 5am Monday (do you do the preconditioning time for the time it needs to be starting or time you want to leave?)

And then I'm deffering charge to 6am so it doesn't come on at all. Should have about 90% battery


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 23, 2021)

Just had a guy in an electric Mini trying to burn me off at a couple of sets of lights 😂


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ive got it set for 5am Monday (do you do the preconditioning time for the time it needs to be starting or time you want to leave?)

And then I'm deffering charge to 6am so it doesn't come on at all. Should have about 90% battery
		
Click to expand...

I set it for the time I want to leave as it starts trickling heat about 45 mins before.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I set it for the time I want to leave as it starts trickling heat about 45 mins before.
		
Click to expand...

Ta very much 

Ill set mine for 5:15 then 

I did in end find the answer in writing by looking at the 208 manual .. it's not in the Corsa manual for some reason! Same car lol


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## pool888 (Jan 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I found this about the Corsa

Furthermore, instead of a conventional HVAC (heating ventilation air conditioning) system, the Corsa-e uses a heat pump to warm and cool the interior, delivering even more efficiency.
		
Click to expand...

Good stuff that will help the range in the winter, I've not looked into the Corsa much but a heat pump is a £1250 option on all VW ID3's even the top of the range one so it's good they've fitted one as standard in the Corsa.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 24, 2021)

Moved a VW e-Up the other day

Best said in a broad Yorkshire accent 😂😂


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## pauljames87 (Jan 24, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Good stuff that will help the range in the winter, I've not looked into the Corsa much but a heat pump is a £1250 option on all VW ID3's even the top of the range one so it's good they've fitted one as standard in the Corsa.
		
Click to expand...

That seems to always be the way the cheaper brands fully kit out their cars for similar price to base model vw


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2021)

Done a few trips to work now

80p to get in when using cheap electric even in the icey morning

£2.30 if nights due to expensive electric

£7 In normal car


That will do for now

Make hay whilst sun shines


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Done a few trips to work now

80p to get in when using cheap electric even in the icey morning

£2.30 if nights due to expensive electric

£7 In normal car


That will do for now

Make hay whilst sun shines
		
Click to expand...

Just wait till you need an oil change, a new exhaust or another catalytic converter.


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## pool888 (Jan 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Just wait till you need an oil change, a new exhaust or another catalytic converter.


Click to expand...



I think one of the biggest problems with EV's is going to be brakes as they're barely used due to the regen. You can one peddle drive everywhere unless something comes out in front of you. The discs on my car are already in a bit of a mess at 4K due to lack of use, last car was still on originals at 45K and they looked good. Try to make of point of giving them a good clean up by using them fairly hard regularly.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Just wait till you need an oil change, a new exhaust or another catalytic converter.


Click to expand...

Yeah I think the service on this is first service after 8000 miles then 16000 or 2 years there after 

Insane 

Topped up last night , should get 3 trips to work and back out of it if not maybe just charge it anyways tomorrow night ... Just to save as it's cheaper to top up from half full than plug in as there no way of me stopping it charging until full unless I'm awake at 04:30 to stop it on the app... Or go out .. so will just pull the expensive juice 

But still enough for me


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## Captainron (Jan 30, 2021)

Nope. I do too many miles up and down the country. Until 500 is achievable I’m still a fossil fuel/hybrid guy


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 30, 2021)

Just bought a new VW golf mild hybrid.
Just think EV is not for me at the moment.
Maybe in three years I will look again at them.


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## Piece (Jan 30, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Just had a guy in an electric Mini trying to burn me off at a couple of sets of lights 😂
		
Click to expand...

What car were you in?

There are a few EV cars I’d think twice about taking on!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 30, 2021)

Piece said:



			What car were you in?

There are a few EV cars I’d think twice about taking on!
		
Click to expand...

A remapped 400hp BMW 335d


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## Piece (Jan 30, 2021)

drive4show said:



			A remapped 400hp BMW 335d  

Click to expand...

Perhaps s/he was hoping you’d be rear wheel spinning!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2021)

drive4show said:



			A remapped 400hp BMW 335d  

Click to expand...

Question really is when you have a 335d which is such a nice machine as is why on earth would you need it re mapped? Or is 4.5 seconds 0-60 just too slow lol 



clubchamp98 said:



			Just bought a new VW golf mild hybrid.
Just think EV is not for me at the moment.
Maybe in three years I will look again at them.
		
Click to expand...

Depending on your commute you may be able to drive EV on it. Guy at work lives only 10 miles away as uses electric only


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## Piece (Jan 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Question really is when you have a 335d which is such a nice machine as is why on earth would you need it re mapped? Or is 4.5 seconds 0-60 just too slow lol
		
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More about the mid range and overtaking punch I’d suggest 🤓😜


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 30, 2021)

Piece said:



			More about the mid range and overtaking punch I’d suggest 🤓😜
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, the mid range overtaking power is phenomenal.  570 ft/lb of torque.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2021)

Piece said:



			More about the mid range and overtaking punch I’d suggest 🤓😜
		
Click to expand...

Which is entirely required on British roads at legal limits lol 

A focus would be fine at legal limits (1.0 turbo)

More than compensating for something 🤣


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			More than compensating for something 🤣
		
Click to expand...

???


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## Piece (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Which is entirely required on British roads at legal limits lol

A focus would be fine at legal limits (1.0 turbo)

More than compensating for something 🤣
		
Click to expand...

I'd rather be in D4S's car or mine than a 1.0 Focus trying to overtake a truck. 👍. Far safer.

Midrange refers to rpm not speed 😁


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

Piece said:



			I'd rather be in D4S's car or mine than a 1.0 Focus trying to overtake a truck. 👍. Far safer.

Midrange refers to rpm not speed 😁
		
Click to expand...

Have you driven the 1.0 turbo? It's surprisingly punchy


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## Piece (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Have you driven the 1.0 turbo? It's surprisingly punchy
		
Click to expand...

No. I did just look at a review and seems really good versus the 1.6 it replaces. Still take my car over it 😏


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

Piece said:



			No. I did just look at a review and seems really good versus the 1.6 it replaces. Still take my car over it 😏
		
Click to expand...

And I'd take both mine over it. However the point was legally overtaking it has more than enough to work

After all we don't live in Germany


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## larmen (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			And I'd take both mine over it. However the point was legally overtaking it has more than enough to work

After all we don't live in Germany
		
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I don’t really know why people own super cars here. My Focus goes as fast as a Ferrari, 70 miles on the motorway.


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

larmen said:



			I don’t really know why people own super cars here. My Focus goes as fast as a Ferrari, 70 miles on the motorway.
		
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You have no idea. It isn't all about how fast you go. There is way more to cars than that.

Anyone who hasn't had a go in a 500hp+ car really doesn't know how much fun they can be to drive, at legal speeds.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			You have no idea. It isn't all about how fast you go. There is way more to cars than that.

Anyone who hasn't had a go in a 500hp+ car really doesn't know how much fun they can be to drive, at legal speeds.
		
Click to expand...

Yet oil is a very limited resource now which we need to reduce our use of

Cars producing under 30 mpg should have been banned 10 years ago.


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet oil is a very limited resource now which we need to reduce our use of

Cars producing under 30 mpg should have been banned 10 years ago.
		
Click to expand...

I can limp mine out to 30mpg so I should be fine then.


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

On a more serious note, with the way things are going with electric cars, emissions zones, government incentives, etc, the demand for fosdil fuel will end long before the supply runs out.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 31, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			On a more serious note, with the way things are going with electric cars, emissions zones, government incentives, etc, the demand for fosdil fuel will end long before the supply runs out.
		
Click to expand...

That might be the idea 😔


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## larmen (Jan 31, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			You have no idea. It isn't all about how fast you go. There is way more to cars than that.

Anyone who hasn't had a go in a 500hp+ car really doesn't know how much fun they can be to drive, at legal speeds.
		
Click to expand...

I have driven 650 HP, but only at about 20 km/h on private land. The legal driver did take it up to 50 km/h while I was swivelling the turret and trying to hit targets.

Topgear did a thing years ago where they took super cars and drove them conservative and the mpg they got was really good because they are super efficient engines. It just was no fun and pointless.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			And I'd take both mine over it. However the point was legally overtaking it has more than enough to work

After all we don't live in Germany
		
Click to expand...

On an A road I can overtake a car doing 50mph in 2 or 3 seconds which makes it considerably quicker AND safer than a 1.0 Focus.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

drive4show said:



			On an A road I can overtake a car doing 50mph in 2 or 3 seconds which makes it considerably quicker AND safer than a 1.0 Focus.
		
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Faster doesn't always equal safer ..

Specially to those around.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Faster doesn't always equal safer ..

Specially to those around.
		
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You spend as long as you want on the wrong side of the road but please don't do it when I'm coming the other way.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

drive4show said:



			You spend as long as you want on the wrong side of the road but please don't do it when I'm coming the other way.
		
Click to expand...

Ah now you need to be clearer ... First what's the limit? Is it 60 as it must be maximum of 60 when it's a single carriage way.. if so why the rush to get past when probably a nice safe passing point just down the road ... Stuck behind someone at 50 oh no.. really going to make bugger all difference to the trip if legal limits are applied

Plus most single carriageways seem to be moving to 50/40 in parts .

Also... You would pick a gap appropriate to the car you are driving .. so the 1.0 ford wouldn't attempt the same gap as the loon in the BMW unless ofc he is completely reckless


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 31, 2021)

Loon in the BMW..... touch of jealousy there?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Loon in the BMW..... touch of jealousy there?
		
Click to expand...

Considering I used to own one and used to drive it like a loon 100% no 😂


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

BMW covers a bit of a range of ability. A bit of a general description. A 118 is a world apart from an M4. Not saying you owned either, but generalisations don't work.
Where it is safe to overtake, I would rather do it in a more powerful car, than a less powerful one.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			BMW covers a bit of a range of ability. A bit of a general description. A 118 is a world apart from an M4. Not saying you owned either, but generalisations don't work.
Where it is safe to overtake, I would rather do it in a more powerful car, than a less powerful one.
		
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Very much felt the A3, 1 series and a class cheapened the brand's .. 

My old 3 series had 160bhp which at the time was enough, 8 seconds 0-60 with 140 top speed

My current car has 136,bhp 7.8 seconds 0-60 with 93 top speed 

Amazing how tech comes on I mean it goes faster on less brake horse power 

And lag


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very much felt the A3, 1 series and a class cheapened the brand's ..

My old 3 series had 160bhp which at the time was enough, 8 seconds 0-60 with 140 top speed

My current car has 136,bhp 7.8 seconds 0-60 with 93 top speed

Amazing how tech comes on I mean it goes faster on less brake horse power

And lag
		
Click to expand...

My old Audi coupe, from 1983 ish, had a 2.2i which put out 125hp ish, and that also did 0 to 60 in 8 seconds. At the time that was fairly quick, whilst not rapid. It was no quattro though, but then that only had 200hp (later 220).


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## Piece (Feb 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet oil is a very limited resource now which we need to reduce our use of

Cars producing under 30 mpg should have been banned 10 years ago.
		
Click to expand...

I got mine to 40mpg once, so I pass


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 1, 2021)

Piece said:



			I got mine to 40mpg once, so I pass
		
Click to expand...

Me too, the last long run I did in mine I got 47mpg


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## Piece (Feb 1, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			BMW covers a bit of a range of ability. A bit of a general description. A 118 is a world apart from an M4. Not saying you owned either, but generalisations don't work.
Where it is safe to overtake, I would rather do it in a more powerful car, than a less powerful one.
		
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Indeed. Can be embarrassing if you overtake, say in an underpowered car, up the hill on a motorway and you've buried your foot to the floor, only to creep past! Yes you can say don't overtake in the first place, but it's compounded when the car you are overtaking then speeds up and you are "stranded"


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## Imurg (Feb 1, 2021)

Piece said:



			Indeed. Can be embarrassing if you overtake, say in an underpowered car, up the hill on a motorway and you've buried your foot to the floor, only to creep past! Yes you can say don't overtake in the first place, but it's compounded when the car you are overtaking then speeds up and you are "stranded" 

Click to expand...

You should try taking learners on a DC..people do not like being overtaken by an L plate...
The look on some people's faces is priceless.
Well, they're only doing 62...we're going 70.
And the number that step on it as soon as they realise........


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## pauljames87 (Feb 1, 2021)

Piece said:



			Indeed. Can be embarrassing if you overtake, say in an underpowered car, up the hill on a motorway and you've buried your foot to the floor, only to creep past! Yes you can say don't overtake in the first place, but it's compounded when the car you are overtaking then speeds up and you are "stranded" 

Click to expand...

Don't get any of that in electric cars, pure power available when needed legally


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## spongebob59 (Feb 1, 2021)

Like this ?


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## Piece (Feb 1, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You should try taking learners on a DC..people do not like being overtaken by an L plate...
The look on some people's faces is priceless.
Well, they're only doing 62...we're going 70.
And the number that step on it as soon as they realise........

Click to expand...

I remember once I was with mates on a night over 25 years ago and I was designated driver. I was overtaken by a bus on a single carriageway road.


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## Imurg (Feb 1, 2021)

Piece said:



			I remember once I was with mates on a night over 25 years ago and I was designated driver. I was overtaken by a bus on a single carriageway road. 

Click to expand...

That probably happens once a week to me...at least it did....


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't get any of that in electric cars, *pure power* available when needed legally
		
Click to expand...

All 136hp in a heavy battery laden car


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## pauljames87 (Feb 1, 2021)

drive4show said:



			All 136hp in a heavy battery laden car  

Click to expand...

Im sure some reprobate would remap it for me


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## pool888 (Feb 1, 2021)

Definitely don't miss my F30 335D, although it was just stock power and no remap. Still a great car though I'm not knocking it.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 1, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You should try taking learners on a DC..people do not like being overtaken by an L plate...
The look on some people's faces is priceless.
Well, they're only doing 62...we're going 70.
And the number that step on it as soon as they realise........

Click to expand...

Our lasses number plate is **** AMY. 
When i drive her car it’s upset a few ego’s 🤣 blokes do not like it one bit.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2021)

Moving to go faster from tonight .. cutting edge trail lol I asked for the hours to be middle of night still .. could have moved forward to 20:30 but with a late turn getting home at 22:00 it would limit my potential

We already run the dishwasher and washing (one load) at these times as we were doing overnight anyways so might aswell get the cheap hours 

The twins room I got a electric oil filled radiator for 3 hours a night at 1kw .. means we don't have to heat the whole house to keep them toasty ..only costs 16.5p a day worth it 

This extra hour will mean on an early I can fit a tumble and second wash in those hours and means I can unplug the car mid charge as there is no way to schedule stop on the vauxhall..

Also means I have 35kw available to charge at cheap rate not 28kw which is always good , means could run the car until 33% rather than 38% before recharging and still all be cheap 

I love this kind of rubbish though planning stupid things


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 4, 2021)

I recently (September) bought what is probably my last car.
It's a 2021 Seat Ibiza with almost all of the mod cons and a petrol engine.
If I treat it right I figure that I'll be able to sell it in 2031 and not take too much of a hit.
I wouldn't get an electric car until it is as easy to "refuel" as a petrol car is now. Drive up to a "pump", refuel in five minutes or less, drive away.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 18, 2021)

So the car arrived 21st January. So almost a month now (I can't go anywhere ATM so that's my months worth of traveling complete so thought do a mini update)

I've taken the seat out twice. Once to give it a run and second time because father had to drive me back from surgery so couldn't take Corsa as lease deal only me and wife can drive apparently.

Anyways total cost of electric to date £13.25 , I had to do one day at the expensive rate .. due to being on nights but have balanced it off .. 

Also have switched from octupus go to go faster so rather than 4 hours at 0.5p I have 5 hours at 0.055p which gives me extra 7kw in the cheaper rate if needed and helps with household bits like washing in mornings on earlies.

Anyways back to car. Came with 178 on clock it now has 850 on the clock so 672 miles in that month 

Average of 2p per mile not bad 

Driving wise it's lovely , smooth and just a pleasant drive on the commute 

Can see in the future going for a bigger version as the kids grow


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 18, 2021)

Why only you and the wife able to drive? I've had lease cars before and it's up to me who I put on the insurance, nothing to do with the lease company. I'd check that if I were you.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 18, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Why only you and the wife able to drive? I've had lease cars before and it's up to me who I put on the insurance, nothing to do with the lease company. I'd check that if I were you.
		
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Lease plan, what they said was wife is fine and said if someone else was wanted would need their own insurance policy as need fully comp insurance .. dunno why I can't just add him to mine 

This is from their website


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

So as of last night officially got beta testing access to podpoint app .. field testing their new scheduled charging 

Trying to manage my battery on the car to be roughly no more than 80% on a day to day 

2 hours added 30% last night leaving me with 84%

Means I just plug in car now, don't have to deffer the charge as the podpoint won't allow electric out until these times (added bonus nobody else can use it as it would be off lol)

Another toy to play with


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## bobmac (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 35384


So as of last night officially got beta testing access to podpoint app .. field testing their new scheduled charging

Trying to manage my battery on the car to be roughly no more than 80% on a day to day

2 hours added 30% last night leaving me with 84%

Means I just plug in car now, don't have to deffer the charge as the podpoint won't allow electric out until these times (added bonus nobody else can use it as it would be off lol)

Another toy to play with
		
Click to expand...

Jealous
Have you seen this yet?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Jealous
Have you seen this yet?







Click to expand...

I haven't no, I don't watch the channel as often as id like, more when I get a kid free hour 

I'll try watch it at the weekend on my break at work 

I do love his channel tho , he is Crazy lol


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 35384


So as of last night officially got beta testing access to podpoint app .. field testing their new scheduled charging

Trying to manage my battery on the car to be roughly no more than 80% on a day to day

2 hours added 30% last night leaving me with 84%

Means I just plug in car now, don't have to deffer the charge as the podpoint won't allow electric out until these times (added bonus nobody else can use it as it would be off lol)

Another toy to play with
		
Click to expand...

Let us know if it works! 
How’d you get access to it?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Let us know if it works!
How’d you get access to it?
		
Click to expand...


It worked last night added 30% roughly (2 hours charge)

I tweeted them to ask when scheduled was coming and they asked if I'd like to be part of beta program

Maybe tweet them


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2021)

IMO, 100% Electric is the future! However, we are in a transition period, the length of which is undetermined!
Diesels used to be deemed the 'solution' to vehicle polution, however that has, quite quickly, been shown to be false, The (production of) components that go into (current (sic)) batteries are extremely dodgy environmentally - just look up the effects of lithium extraction - so there is a lot of, quite reasonable imo, scepticism about electric being the 'solution'! 
What seems, to me, to be required, is some 'real' environmentally power production - wind/wave or 'good old hydro' where possible.
Modern humanity is hooked on the car as a method of transport - in spite of rail being 'far better' for the likes of most commuting in the South East.
But until USA and most of the western world drop their addiction with the car, then nothing's going to change!
Btw. I have to confess the the car is by far the most convenient form of transport for my home country (New Zealand) - but that's purely on a cost per (likely) pasenger basis - with not too dis-similar area, but about 20 times the population, public transport is far more cost-effective in UK!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, 100% Electric is the future! However, we are in a transition period, the length of which is undetermined!
Diesels used to be deemed the 'solution' to vehicle polution, however that has, quite quickly, been shown to be false, The (production of) components that go into (current (sic)) batteries are extremely dodgy environmentally - just look up the effects of lithium extraction - so there is a lot of, quite reasonable imo, scepticism about electric being the 'solution'!
What seems, to me, to be required, is some 'real' environmentally power production - wind/wave or 'good old hydro' where possible.
Modern humanity is hooked on the car as a method of transport - in spite of rail being 'far better' for the likes of most commuting in the South East.
But until USA and most of the western world drop their addiction with the car, then nothing's going to change!
Btw. I have to confess the the car is by far the most convenient form of transport for my home country (New Zealand) - but that's purely on a cost per (likely) pasenger basis - with not too dis-similar area, but about 20 times the population, public transport is far more cost-effective in UK!
		
Click to expand...

The next generation of batteries on the way are going to be game changers. 500 miles single charge in 5 mins think they were saying 

I've made it my aim for this season to try and do majority of golf days in the electric car , I reckon I could go to ones up to 75 miles away comfortably which wouldn't be bad at all!


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 3, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, 100% Electric is the future! However, we are in a transition period, the length of which is undetermined!
Diesels used to be deemed the 'solution' to vehicle polution, however that has, quite quickly, been shown to be false, The (production of) components that go into (current (sic)) batteries are extremely dodgy environmentally - just look up the effects of lithium extraction - so there is a lot of, quite reasonable imo, scepticism about electric being the 'solution'!
What seems, to me, to be required, is some 'real' environmentally power production - wind/wave or 'good old hydro' where possible.
Modern humanity is hooked on the car as a method of transport - in spite of rail being 'far better' for the likes of most commuting in the South East.
But until USA and most of the western world drop their addiction with the car, then nothing's going to change!
Btw. I have to confess the the car is by far the most convenient form of transport for my home country (New Zealand) - but that's purely on a cost per (likely) pasenger basis - with not too dis-similar area, but about 20 times the population, public transport is far more cost-effective in UK!
		
Click to expand...

What is strange, or perhaps more telling is that whilst there seems to be a rush to claim to be only producing electric only from 2030 in line with Governments declarations, Toyota who you have to say are the pioneers of hybrid cars are aiming at hyrdrogen fuel cell cars as their target line. Do you think they might actually have chosen the VHS path over the Betamax of everyone else?


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## USER1999 (Mar 3, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			What is strange, or perhaps more telling is that whilst there seems to be a rush to claim to be only producing electric only from 2030 in line with Governments declarations, Toyota who you have to say are the pioneers of hybrid cars are aiming at hyrdrogen fuel cell cars as their target line. Do you think they might actually have chosen the VHS path over the Betamax of everyone else?
		
Click to expand...

I saw a hydrogen powered Toyota last year, outside our office. First, and only one I have ever seen.
Then I found out that (at the time) there were only 4 places in the UK you could refuel it. One of which was in Hendon, about 3 miles away. Range of around 250 miles. It wouldn't get you to any of the other refuel points.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 3, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I saw a hydrogen powered Toyota last year, outside our office. First, and only one I have ever seen.
Then I found out that (at the time) there were only 4 places in the UK you could refuel it. One of which was in Hendon, about 3 miles away. Range of around 250 miles. It wouldn't get you to any of the other refuel points.
		
Click to expand...

Hyundai ran 4  of their  SUV's as hydrogen powered cars over here a couple of years back, to see how they faired. TBH it has to be the way forward, and for the life of me I don't understand why more car companies aren't jumping on that ship


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## harpo_72 (Mar 3, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Hyundai ran 4  of their  SUV's as hydrogen powered cars over here a couple of years back, to see how they faired. TBH it has to be the way forward, and for the life of me I don't understand why more car companies aren't jumping on that ship
		
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They are, big heavy vehicles have realised that’s the direction they have to go. 

Battery is still a reasonable solution but it’s benefits will be eroded. You can use them like a “Tesla wall” and the new Hyundai has it and I think they refer to it as V2G.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Hyundai ran 4  of their  SUV's as hydrogen powered cars over here a couple of years back, to see how they faired. TBH it has to be the way forward, and for the life of me I don't understand why more car companies aren't jumping on that ship
		
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Because it's sitting on a potential bomb

They haven't stabilised it fully yet


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Hyundai ran 4  of their  SUV's as hydrogen powered cars over here a couple of years back, to see how they faired. TBH it has to be the way forward, and for the life of me I don't understand why more car companies aren't jumping on that ship
		
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I would guess it is a lack of infrastructure. Everyone is going gung ho building electric charging points, Governments are promoting electric as the future. Even petrol stations are looking at recharging points. No one is putting in hydrogen. If a vehicle manufacturer goes all in on hydrogen, but there is nowhere to fill it, it will be a waste of time, money, etc.

HGV is probably going to have to go down the fuel cell route. It may be the haulage industry that has to invest in fefueling sites at their own depots.

I think long term, people will accept less ev range, in exchange for a lighter, cheaper vehicle, especially if it can have a fast recharge. Yes, some need 400 mile range, but in reality it's very few. Most journeys are 40 miles or less. Something with 100 mile range, that recharges in 10 minutes would do most people.

We used to have phones that stayed charged for a week. Now they scrape through a day, and we are all fine with it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I would guess it is a lack of infrastructure. Everyone is going gung ho building electric charging points, Governments are promoting electric as the future. Even petrol stations are looking at recharging points. No one is putting in hydrogen. If a vehicle manufacturer goes all in on hydrogen, but there is nowhere to fill it, it will be a waste of time, money, etc.

HGV is probably going to have to go down the fuel cell route. It may be the haulage industry that has to invest in fefueling sites at their own depots.

I think long term, people will accept less ev range, in exchange for a lighter, cheaper vehicle, especially if it can have a fast recharge. Yes, some need 400 mile range, but in reality it's very few. Most journeys are 40 miles or less. Something with 100 mile range, that recharges in 10 minutes would do most people.

We used to have phones that stayed charged for a week. Now they scrape through a day, and we are all fine with it.
		
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Some very good points there. Especially on the phones however some may argue what did we use our Nokia 3310 for? Phone calls and snake if that now it's a browser, a Walkman , podcast host .. for some much more than that aswell

Think your right about the range but then we the fuel cel their saying 300 mile range only bonus is filling up faster .. which is getting addressed I mean telsa have their 250kw super charge network in theory 15 mins on that could recharge their battieres

Shell were on the news about in the future every petrol station will have equal electric chargers and petrol pumps , much faster speeds coming aswell

I mean mine is limited to 100kw I believe which isn't bad but does cut the potential slightly

Bang on about range and average journey

I reckon I can do all my society days in it up to 75 miles with no worries .. and my commute is 25 each way


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

I presently have an Audi S4 which is a shade under 500bhp, it's an Avant so the family wagon. It's a good laugh and I enjoy driving it. The wife has a Mini Cooper Convertible, woefully underpowered however it's just a run around for local journeys. That car is due for replacement next year and we will definitely explore full electric as her longest journey is down to the South Coast which is about 60 miles. For longer journeys with the family stuff we use mine.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I presently have an Audi S4 which is a shade under 500bhp, it's an Avant so the family wagon. It's a good laugh and I enjoy driving it. The wife has a Mini Cooper Convertible, woefully underpowered however it's just a run around for local journeys. That car is due for replacement next year and we will definitely explore full electric as her longest journey is down to the South Coast which is about 60 miles. For longer journeys with the family stuff we use mine.
		
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That is prob where most people can make the switch 

We have the Corsa e which I've been basically been doing majority of the driving in

Even dropping the kids to mum's for day care if it's just me and not me plus the wife I'll take the Corsa 

The alhambra has gone from 1000 miles a month to 100 miles maybe 

Post lockdown prob will end up 300 miles a month but still massive change


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That is prob where most people can make the switch
		
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Realistically as long as the electric car was able to do 150 miles on a single charge (which most seem to be able to do easily) then it'd be fine for us a second car. Most of our journeys are local anyway so pottering around in it would be just fine. I'm not ready to go full electric with the 'big' car as I enjoy driving it too much however I race RC cards so know the power of a brushless motor and would not be adverse to changing at some point in the future.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Realistically as long as the electric car was able to do 150 miles on a single charge (which most seem to be able to do easily) then it'd be fine for us a second car. Most of our journeys are local anyway so pottering around in it would be just fine. I'm not ready to go full electric with the 'big' car as I enjoy driving it too much however I race RC cards so know the power of a brushless motor and would not be adverse to changing at some point in the future.
		
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I find my 50kw a good blend ATM 202 quoted range but if I keep at 80% more than enough and if I know long drive top to 100


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

So, in effect, electric is currently great as a second car but we still need the breakthrough to be considered 1st car for most. Expensive 2nd car though, another breakthrough needed there as well.


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## road2ruin (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Expensive 2nd car though, another breakthrough needed there as well.
		
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That would be the other thing that would stop me, at present, even second hand they're extremely expensive against the petrol equivalent.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So, in effect, electric is currently great as a second car but we still need the breakthrough to be considered 1st car for most. Expensive 2nd car though, another breakthrough needed there as well.
		
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Depends 

The 62kw ones and 80kw coming are 300 miles plus

350kw charging coming 

5kw a minute 

That's the 80kw one in 15 mins potentially

400 miles I reckon off that in 15 mins


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Depends

The 62kw ones and 80kw coming are 300 miles plus

350kw charging coming

5kw a minute

That's the 80kw one in 15 mins potentially

400 miles I reckon off that in 15 mins
		
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But most of this is a why? Bigger batteries etc will just drive the cost of buying even higher. Potentially smaller batteries, less range, but faster charging would suit most people fine.
It's also mostly short journeys that create the pollution.


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## bobmac (Mar 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			That would be the other thing that would stop me, at present, even second hand they're extremely expensive against the petrol equivalent.
		
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Let's face it, if EVs were the same price as their equivalent ICE cars, the manufacturers wouldn't sell many ICE cars (which they are still churning out) so they have to keep the price of their EVs higher.
But when companies like Tesla (who don't have any ICE cars to shift) finally produce an escort sized car, which has 200 mile range, fast charging and is affordable, things will change rapidly.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But most of this is a why? Bigger batteries etc will just drive the cost of buying even higher. Potentially smaller batteries, less range, but faster charging would suit most people fine.
It's also mostly short journeys that create the pollution.
		
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I can see 60 becoming the norm

Some companies are starting with 50 as standard the new gen ones 

60 would bring 300 miles into play

Won't add that much cost because battery cost is so much lower now 
Car companies are artificially keeping the costs high ATM 

There's about 3k difference in real terms think I read .. and less moving parts


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Depends

The 62kw ones and 80kw coming are 300 miles plus

350kw charging coming

5kw a minute

That's the 80kw one in 15 mins potentially

400 miles I reckon off that in 15 mins
		
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Would you ditch your Alhambra tomorrow?

We need electric cars built to family size, giving a decent range (I'm not expecting diesel range), at an equivalent price to petrol / diesel. They are all coming, potential etc. When these things actually happen we will start to see a genuine shift.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Would you ditch your Alhambra tomorrow?

We need electric cars built to family size, giving a decent range (I'm not expecting diesel range), at an equivalent price to petrol / diesel. They are all coming, potential etc. When these things actually happen we will start to see a genuine shift.
		
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No, because one thing, childseats 

That's the entire reason I have it

There are 3 cars on the market that can fit 3 car seats accross the back 

Alhambra, Sharon and C4 

The s max is tighter 

This has isofix accross all 3

The Skoda new SUV that's 62-82 kw battery with big boot if it could fit 3 car seats 100% I'd go to it


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No, because one thing, childseats

That's the entire reason I have it

There are 3 cars on the market that can fit 3 car seats accross the back

Alhambra, Sharon and C4

The s max is tighter

This has isofix accross all 3

The Skoda new SUV that's 62-82 kw battery with big boot if it could fit 3 car seats 100% I'd go to it
		
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I've just looked up the Skoda, Enyaq for those interested. That is exactly the type of model we need to see coming through. £34k is steep but at least it is a start.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've just looked up the Skoda, Enyaq for those interested. That is exactly the type of model we need to see coming through. £34k is steep but at least it is a start.
		
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My alhambra was 35k brand new I believe

It's was 3.5 years when I got it for 16k

So similar

Nice car the Skoda tho eh? Once eldest out of car seats we could change


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My alhambra was 35k brand new I believe

It's was 3.5 years when I got it for 16k

So similar

Nice car the Skoda tho eh? Once eldest out of car seats we could change
		
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It's very nice. I'm on my second Skoda, only have praise for them. The interiors now are very impressive and the one on this seems to be the staple across the board going forwards (it's already in the Octavia)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's very nice. I'm on my second Skoda, only have praise for them. The interiors now are very impressive and the one on this seems to be the staple across the board going forwards (it's already in the Octavia)
		
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Wife hates the alhambra..she loved her hrv (which I sold to the mother in law) we were going to keep that until it died then get a leaf or something to replace my civic 

All that was second baby plans 
19th march first scan all changes (twins) now the civic I gave to my aunt as their car broke and saved the hassle of selling it in lockdown .. bought the Alhambra then the PCP was ending on the hrv I said to the wife look why pay 13k for a car that gets me 45mpg to work for just me and golf .. where as if I lease an electric car for me bamn save us a fortune (£100 a month ATM)

Lease market is where they can take over


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So, in effect, electric is currently great as a second car but we still need the breakthrough to be considered 1st car for most. Expensive 2nd car though, another breakthrough needed there as well.
		
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This.  My car is a Seat Leon ST which we would use for longer journeys, Mrs. BiM bought a brand new Seat Ibiza, about £17,000 new.  A quick look for something similar shows a Peugeot 208 electric at about £29,000.  Why would we pay £12,000 more just to get a car with less range & convenience.


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## bobmac (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			This.  My car is a Seat Leon ST which we would use for longer journeys, Mrs. BiM bought a brand new Seat Ibiza, about £17,000 new.  A quick look for something similar shows a Peugeot 208 electric at about £29,000.  Why would we pay £12,000 more just to get a car with less range & convenience.
		
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Or you could get a brand new Nissan Leaf for £22,998 less the Govt grant of £3000

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...-from=new&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Let's face it, if EVs were the same price as their equivalent ICE cars, the manufacturers wouldn't sell many ICE cars (which they are still churning out) so they have to keep the price of their EVs higher.
But when companies like Tesla (who don't have any ICE cars to shift) finally produce an *escort sized car, which has 200 mile range, fast charging and is affordable, things will change rapidly*.
		
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By the time that fantasy level arrives Tesla will not be making cars and will be focused purely on the batteries that they will be able to produce mass market

But we are imo are decades away from producing an affordable electric fast charging car that does the level of millage required


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			By the time that fantasy level arrives Tesla will not be making cars and will be focused purely on the batteries that they will be able to produce mass market

But we are imo are decades away from producing an affordable electric fast charging car that does the level of millage required
		
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Dunno what your on about. The model 2 is round the corner

Escort size car

25,000 dollar ticket price

Due end of this year


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Or you could get a brand new Nissan Leaf for £22,998 less the Govt grant of £3000

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202011045784069?include-delivery-option=on&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&sort=price-asc&radius=50&fuel-type=Electric&year-from=new&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

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Think that includes the grant price built in Bob

That said their one of the best , reasonable sized and because they were designed from floor up to be electric their more refined than for example my Corsa that's the same as a petrol one with a diff drive train


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Or you could get a brand new Nissan Leaf for £22,998 less the Govt grant of £3000

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202011045784069?include-delivery-option=on&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&sort=price-asc&radius=50&fuel-type=Electric&year-from=new&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

Click to expand...

So why would I pay £6,000 more for a car with a less range, convenience & a lower specification; the Acenta is the bottom of the Leaf range, Mrs. BiM's Ibiza is the Xcellence Lux, the top of the range version.  The top of the range Leaf starts at £34,710; twice the price we paid for the Ibiza.

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Dunno what your on about. The model 2 is round the corner

Escort size car

25,000 dollar ticket price

Due end of this year
		
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How long does it take to charge ?

And round the corner 🤔

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....s/amp35650006/tesla-model-2-a-must-for-tesla/


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2021)

I'll buy one when a) the infrastructure supports owning one, b) when the charging technology improves, and c) when they stop making them god-awful ugly.

£23000 for that Nissan Leaf? They'd need to pay me that to drive the thing. It's hideous. And that Model 2 is like a "wacky races" version of the ugly as sin model 3. Reminds me of Wayne Campbell's AMC Pacer.







Even the "big" marques have/are producing some ugly things. BMW i3 was horrendous. Mercedes EQC is fugly.

BMW's i4 is still 2 years off by the looks of it and might, just might tempt me, IF the speculation about styling and capabilities are true.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How long does it take to charge ?

And round the corner 🤔

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....s/amp35650006/tesla-model-2-a-must-for-tesla/

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Article I have says late 21 maybe covid delayed

But so many cars coming your missing the point

Mg are affordable and getting more range

Charge speed varies. Charge nightly at home you will top up what you need no problem it takes 30 seconds to walk from wall charger to car ...

On the road you can get all kind of chargers 350kw Is being rolled out but 150kw Is becoming more common

60kw battery would fully charge in 2 hours but you don't fully charge on the road

Yes u will come back with your standard reply oh I pull in fill up and go but ice is going . People need to adapt to a new way of life.. yes it's not as seemless as before but where did that get us? On the verge of a climate crisis

Think a few extra mins here and there at planned stops and managing milage will be fine

Plus if WFH takes off people won't drive as far for some jobs

My car was driven 178 miles to me and he topped it up round corner on a fast charger to give me half charge

That range is pretty decent on one go

Work car parks need to install them, work a shift come out with full tank


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

Another alternative that may yet happen, particularly with leasing, is to have a cheaper, low range EV, but as part of the lease, the ability to swap it out for a longer range hybrid on occasion. Many who 'need 300 mike range only really need it a few times a year, but have it sat around costing money 360 days of the year. Alternative ownership schemes could be attractive at some point.

Or, just hire a car for the weekend away.


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## Imurg (Mar 4, 2021)

I'll be keeping an eye on the development of the cheaper, smaller EVs.
Not because I particularly want one but because there will come a time when the demand for ICE manual driving lessons is superceded by demand for EV Auto lessons.
From that point, ICE will be a rapidly diminishing market and I will need to make the change.
I suspect it will happen before the proposed 2030 deadline for new ICE cars assuming they get the home charging issues sorted
In another 5/6/7 years the 2nd hand market may be buoyant enough for kids passing their tests to get an EV as their first car.
Once that happens the numbers wanting Auto/EV lessons will rocket.
And I don't want to be left with an ICE car thats losing value and I can't use for lessons.
The demand for auto lessons is already creeping up.
Timing is going to be everything


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Article I have says late 21 maybe covid delayed

But so many cars coming your missing the point

Mg are affordable and getting more range

Charge speed varies. Charge nightly at home you will top up what you need no problem it takes 30 seconds to walk from wall charger to car ...

On the road you can get all kind of chargers 350kw Is being rolled out but 150kw Is becoming more common

60kw battery would fully charge in 2 hours but you don't fully charge on the road

Yes u will come back with your standard reply oh I pull in fill up and go but ice is going . People need to adapt to a new way of life.. yes it's not as seemless as before but where did that get us? On the verge of a climate crisis

Think a few extra mins here and there at planned stops and managing milage will be fine

Plus if WFH takes off people won't drive as far for some jobs

My car was driven 178 miles to me and he topped it up round corner on a fast charger to give me half charge

That range is pretty decent on one go

Work car parks need to install them, work a shift come out with full tank
		
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So if I need to go 250 miles I will need to stop halfway and then sit around whilst the car charges

That’s is no use to millions

Until that changes where someone can just pop in and take 5 mins to charge then electric cars for many will be as much use as an expensive chocolate fireguard 

It won’t be just a few mins here and there 

And all these cars that are coming are not “affordable” and certainly not practical and certainly not appealing to 99% of the population 

Standard cars will be around for a long time yet


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## D-S (Mar 4, 2021)

[Standard cars will be around for a long time yet[/QUOTE]

Only if manufacturers continue making them and parts for them. I suppose it’s what you call a long time.


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## GB72 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So if I need to go 250 miles I will need to stop halfway and then sit around whilst the car charges

That’s is no use to millions

Until that changes where someone can just pop in and take 5 mins to charge then electric cars for many will be as much use as an expensive chocolate fireguard

It won’t be just a few mins here and there

And all these cars that are coming are not “affordable” and certainly not practical and certainly not appealing to 99% of the population

Standard cars will be around for a long time yet
		
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This is the main factor for me. When I am on a long drive, I just want to get it done. Don't think I have ever stopped for more than 10 minutes on a journey and so stopping for an hour or so to charge the car is just not something I want to be doing (and that is assuming I drive in and find a free charger point).


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Battery development is moving along rapidly... With several different avenues being investigated... I think the problem will be at what point do you decide which will be the 'universal' system...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So if I need to go 250 miles I will need to stop halfway and then sit around whilst the car charges

That’s is no use to millions

Until that changes where someone can just pop in and take 5 mins to charge then electric cars for many will be as much use as an expensive chocolate fireguard

It won’t be just a few mins here and there

And all these cars that are coming are not “affordable” and certainly not practical and certainly not appealing to 99% of the population

Standard cars will be around for a long time yet
		
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You can get 300 mile range cars

Research solid state batteries which are being developed by Toyota .. due to in car testing this year 

500 miles 

5 min charge

Everyone focuses on price new but they do get cheaper over time you know... That's how second hand works 

Won't be long at all 

As murph pointed out the average journey is 40 miles 

250 miles isn't really that common is it.. how often would you need to drive 250 miles? If you had 300 mile range what's the hardship charging before you come back as the network grows..

Many people could make the switch overnight and would suit their needs 

How many people lease cars? That's where people can easily change. How many of the generation below own cars?

Company cars provided will make the switch 

I've said so many times it doesn't suit all but it suits a lot more people than are willing to even try because it's different and new ..


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Battery development is moving along rapidly... With several different avenues being investigated... *I think the problem will be at what point do you decide which will be the 'universal' system.*..
		
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You would have thought that would have been agreed at the very beginning. I was amazed it  was not  the case to be honest. Some heads really need to be cracked together so this gets sorted before too many mfrs are entrenched in their set ups. 

Universal charging points should also be the norm. The idea that you can not stop at charger A because it is the wrong type, or you need mulitple apps to pay is crackers. You should be able to roll up to any charger, plug in, have one app to pay, drive off.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You can get 300 mile range cars

Research solid state batteries which are being developed by Toyota .. due to in car testing this year

500 miles

5 min charge

Everyone focuses on price new but they do get cheaper over time you know... That's how second hand works

Won't be long at all

As murph pointed out the average journey is 40 miles

250 miles isn't really that common is it.. how often would you need to drive 250 miles? If you had 300 mile range what's the hardship charging before you come back as the network grows..

Many people could make the switch overnight and would suit their needs

How many people lease cars? That's where people can easily change. How many of the generation below own cars?

Company cars provided will make the switch

I've said so many times it doesn't suit all but it suits a lot more people than are willing to even try because it's different and new ..
		
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Of course everyone focused on price - not everyone is made of money to be able to afford a electric car that does less than a car that is half the price 

How much does a 300 mile range car cost with a 5 min charge 

How many points out there that do a 5 mins charge right now 


Here is what people want 

Affordable and ease of use 

Right now for the majority of the country that doesn’t exist and until it does then petrol/diesel will be king 

You keep just looking at things from your single perspective as opposed to 99% of the population


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Another alternative that may yet happen, particularly with leasing, is to have a cheaper, low range EV, but as part of the lease, the ability to swap it out for a longer range hybrid on occasion. Many who 'need 300 mike range only really need it a few times a year, but have it sat around costing money 360 days of the year. Alternative ownership schemes could be attractive at some point.

Or, just hire a car for the weekend away.
		
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When nissan leaf first came out they offered a petrol car for free for up to 3 weekends a year I believe


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course everyone focused on price - not everyone is made of money to be able to afford a electric car that does less than a car that is half the price

How much does a 300 mile range car cost with a 5 min charge

How many points out there that do a 5 mins charge right now


Here is what people want

Affordable and ease of use

Right now for the majority of the country that doesn’t exist and until it does then petrol/diesel will be king

You keep just looking at things from your single perspective as opposed to 99% of the population
		
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99%? Vastely understated .. probably 50% of the population could switch if required 

How many lease privately or through buisness? That could happen at the end of their next deal


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

D-S said:



			Only if manufacturers continue making them and parts for them. I suppose it’s what you call a long time.
		
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That's why the 2030 target needed to be done 

They need to be discouraged from making them 

It's cheaper to maintain electric cars . It does them out of service


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			99%? Vastely understated .. probably 50% of the population could switch if required

How many lease privately or through buisness? That could happen at the end of their next deal
		
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50% ? Really ? Based on what ? 

Sorry but it’s a pipe dream right now


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You would have thought that would have been agreed at the very beginning. I was amazed it  was not  the case to be honest. Some heads really need to be cracked together so this gets sorted before too many mfrs are entrenched in their set ups.

Universal charging points should also be the norm. The idea that you can not stop at charger A because it is the wrong type, or you need mulitple apps to pay is crackers. You should be able to roll up to any charger, plug in, have one app to pay, drive off.
		
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Think at the start an open mind as to what avenue of development has the best potential is a sensible path... But at some point there has to be some sort of collective agreement which way to go with battery type/charging method... Certainly for everyday commuter usage... The supercar fraternity can and most probably will tread their own path... My boys raced electric model cars and from where batteries were when they started to what's in use now is phenomenal... 4mins of pussyfooting to 10+ mins of flat out blast...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			50% ? Really ? Based on what ?

Sorry but it’s a pipe dream right now
		
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https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-car-finance-pcp-mortgage-market-morgan-stanley-2017-7?amp

82% of new cars are PCP

Over a million a year bought 

Even second hand cars a lot are paid via PCP or HP or a loan 

How many people pay outright for a car?

Long as the cars come in budget for someone's monthly they will sell


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## harpo_72 (Mar 4, 2021)

I don’t have a car on pcp or lease.
I buy what I like and drive it forever ... I see interest as dead money I get nothing from it ! So why pay it, I don’t get that back on my money either. 
What we have is a fickle population who don’t understand money and don’t realise they are being financially exploited.. if I told you that a Range Rover gives the dealership 100% profit and that’s after JLR have made their 100% and then you have the financial services making 5.9% apr etc.... (by the way JLR lose a lot of that with warranty claims and pointless development costs .. hence them going down the toilet)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I don’t have a car on pcp or lease.
I buy what I like and drive it forever ... I see interest as dead money I get nothing from it ! So why pay it, I don’t get that back on my money either.
What we have is a fickle population who don’t understand money and don’t realise they are being financially exploited.. if I told you that a Range Rover gives the dealership 100% profit and that’s after JLR have made their 100% and then you have the financial services making 5.9% apr etc.... (by the way JLR lose a lot of that with warranty claims and pointless development costs .. hence them going down the toilet)
		
Click to expand...

It's not just a fickle population. It's a poor population who can't afford to lay out big sums at once on a car

Also get a lot of 0% PCP. Offers


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You would have thought that would have been agreed at the very beginning. I was amazed it  was not  the case to be honest. Some heads really need to be cracked together so this gets sorted before too many mfrs are entrenched in their set ups.

Universal charging points should also be the norm. The idea that you can not stop at charger A because it is the wrong type, or you need mulitple apps to pay is crackers. You should be able to roll up to any charger, plug in, have one app to pay, drive off.
		
Click to expand...

Type one and chademo (spelling) were the American way and the leaf 1.0 had them because nissan were in line with them 

Type two is European standard as is CCS 

In my car I have one socket that's dual, type 2 and then CCS goes into the type 2 but fills the 2 holes under it aswell to provide the extra speed 

A lot of charge points provide all of these 

To future proof your house the best way is to just get a type 2 socket installed no tether and then you just get a cable that goes to type 2 to whatever the car has but majority now are type 2

Telsa have their CCS that I believe can use normal but we can't use theirs ATM they won't let EVs on their network so the chip locks them out 

I have a tethered point at home for ease of use , apparently if I want to change to another car and say type 3 suddenly was s thing I could swap cables on it pretty easy . My mate switched his own 

I think all public points should provide a spare type 2 point thst has no cable 

Tesco near me do that and you just plug your cable in job done


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

Sounds just like Apple to me.


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## USER1999 (Mar 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I don’t have a car on pcp or lease.
I buy what I like and drive it forever ... I see interest as dead money I get nothing from it ! So why pay it, I don’t get that back on my money either.
What we have is a fickle population who don’t understand money and don’t realise they are being financially exploited.. if I told you that a Range Rover gives the dealership 100% profit and that’s after JLR have made their 100% and then you have the financial services making 5.9% apr etc.... (by the way JLR lose a lot of that with warranty claims and pointless development costs .. hence them going down the toilet)
		
Click to expand...

I am sure they make a 50% margin, not 100% profit. 50% margin is pretty common in many businesses, especially retail.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's why the 2030 target needed to be done

They need to be discouraged from making them

It's cheaper to maintain electric cars .* It does them out of service*

Click to expand...

So electric cars don't have brakes, steering or suspension that require checking or servicing?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			So electric cars don't have brakes, steering or suspension that require checking or servicing?
		
Click to expand...

Didn't say that. I said they have less moving parts not no moving parts.

For example the first service on an electric car is 8000 miles it's £80 just s check (main dealer) and then it goes to 16,000 miles or 2 years because they don't suffer the same wear 

And brake pads etc are worn less because of the breaking system you are encouraged to use which in a leaf is best when you take foot off the gas it puts on the full engine break so you drive one pedal. It's very efficient and popular 

The corsas isn't as powerful but does slow you enough .. saving the breaks and also recharging the battery as you go


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/maintenance

Up to 50% less


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## chrisd (Mar 4, 2021)

Hid's Leaf was due a service and MOT a little while back, they only charged for the MOT as there was so little to service


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

My Corsa replaced the HRV 

HRV monthly £295
Corsa month £275

Monthly fuel cost before £100
Monthly fuel cost now £20

Hrv service cost £380 average including £90 Cvt extra 
Corsa service £80-100 every 2 years call £50 a year 

HRV tax £150
Corsa tax £0 

Total yearly 

5260 hrv
3590 Corsa


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Research solid state batteries which are being developed by Toyota .. due to in car testing this year
		
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It's strange you use Toyota for your example, when Toyota see hydrogen fuel cell as the long term way forward and not pure EV.

The problem is as I see it, we are an island nation who thinks we are more important and influential than we really are. Us having a few extra leccy charging points in our lamp-posts isn't going to change the World. You have to think of mid USA. Only when your American driver can drive across the plains with only a quick fuel stop will cars actually change globally. Pure EV is never going to work because no-one is going to lay millions of miles of leccy cables so your country belt dweller can rapid charge his pick-up on the way to the market. Swap out petrol for hydrogen and you have the answer.


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## DanFST (Mar 4, 2021)

I want to like electric cars. 

Currently infrastructure seems crap. Charging points are full/broken at work. Being an Early Adopter never works out.


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Swap out petrol for hydrogen and you have the answer.
		
Click to expand...

Where does the electricity come from to make the hydrogen?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where does the electricity come from to make the hydrogen?
		
Click to expand...

Same place as to charge electric cars I'd guess. The great  benefit of hydrogen, I know there are downsides to overcome, is that refuelliing is similar to existing cars, refuelling can hook into the existing petrol station network and so infrastructure costs are significantly lower, range anxiety no longer exists.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where does the electricity come from to make the hydrogen?
		
Click to expand...

I get what he's saying, hydrogen easy to refill fast and go say 300 tank

I think we have a split market

Hydrogen lorries, and cars but plenty using the more up to date electric ones by then 

To answer the OP question no I wouldn't buy an electric car. I'd lease one. Then your always on the cutting edge of battery tech and haven't fully committed

If say in 4 years electric cars suddenly went. Say synthetic petrol took off or hydrogen.. and everyone got that making electric cars worth a lot less I simply hand my back and switch


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Same place as to charge electric cars I'd guess. The great  benefit of hydrogen, I know there are downsides to overcome, is that refuelliing is similar to existing cars, refuelling can hook into the existing petrol station network and so infrastructure costs are significantly lower, range anxiety no longer exists.
		
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I love range calculations lol I got home last night 40% battery.. easily can go work and back again on that but I wanted to top up to 80%

For mine 0.5 kw is 1% roughly (I work on these rough sums) so I need 40% that's 20kw.. 7kw an hour that's just under 3 hours  so plugged it in .. set the point to come on 01:45-04:45 it added 20.7kw in that time .. total cost £1.14 

Won't charge until sunday night now with 2 shifts and few local trips at the weekend


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where does the electricity come from to make the hydrogen?
		
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I get that you‘re very evangelical about EV’s, but I doubt hydrogen powered cars will be more polluting and less future proof than pure EV over their whole life and that’s includes the raw materials. They must surely be better for the planet in that you don’t need to rape the ground for certain elements.


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I love range calculations lol I got home last night 40% battery.. easily can go work and back again on that but I wanted to top up to 80%

For mine 0.5 kw is 1% roughly (I work on these rough sums) so I need 40% that's 20kw.. 7kw an hour that's just under 3 hours  so plugged it in .. set the point to come on 01:45-04:45 it added 20.7kw in that time .. total cost £1.14

Won't charge until sunday night now with 2 shifts and few local trips at the weekend
		
Click to expand...

So how does that compare with a hydrogen car which costs over 16p per mile?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I love range calculations lol I got home last night 40% battery.. easily can go work and back again on that but I wanted to top up to 80%

For mine 0.5 kw is 1% roughly (I work on these rough sums) so I need 40% that's 20kw.. 7kw an hour that's just under 3 hours  so plugged it in .. set the point to come on 01:45-04:45 it added 20.7kw in that time .. total cost £1.14

Won't charge until sunday night now with 2 shifts and few local trips at the weekend
		
Click to expand...

I get that but most don't want to spend their time, or have to worry, about regularly having to plug in etc. They may have to get used to this but hydrogen would eliminate that.

I suspect there is an element of going around in circles about this. It is a shame we can not jump forward 3-5 years and see where we are.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but most don't want to spend their time, or have to worry, about regularly having to plug in etc. They may have to get used to this but hydrogen would eliminate that.

I suspect there is an element of going around in circles about this. It is a shame we can not jump forward 3-5 years and see where we are.
		
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Little and often is the idea with electric that's what a lot of people miss tho, too used to the norm

The idea is to have chargers say at work or the supermarket


Come in, plug in go home 

Get home plug in full battery next day 

(Ruling out non driveway there)

However on my way to work I pass a telsa and a leaf parked on street, they must manage it! But then there is a charger at the shell garage up the road 

The father in law is changing jobs.. maintaining petrol pumps but also now installing chargers at forcourts .. I saw the shell program where the CEO said they going to have chargers at all garages


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So how does that compare with a hydrogen car which costs over 16p per mile?
		
Click to expand...

By that time cheap electric evening plans will be gone and it will be a flat rate 14ppkw or whatever we pay by then 

Yes hydrogen will be more expensive but people will pay it for convenience no doubt


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I get that you‘re very evangelical about EV’s, but I doubt hydrogen powered cars will be more polluting and less future proof than pure EV over their whole life and that’s includes the raw materials. They must surely be better for the planet in that you* don’t need to rape the ground for certain elements.*

Click to expand...

You mean the Lithium that is used in every mobile phone, tablet and laptop on the planet?
Or Cobalt that is also used to remove sulphur from oil?
Or should we carry on raping the planet of oil, coal and gas and burning it to make electricity to make the hydrogen?



Lord Tyrion said:



			It is a shame we can not jump forward 3-5 years and see where we are.
		
Click to expand...

I think the fact that there are over 38,000 charging points in the uk and 13 garages selling hydrogen tells me where we will be.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Little and often is the idea with electric that's what a lot of people miss tho, too used to the norm

*The idea is to have chargers say at work or the supermarket*


Come in, plug in go home

Get home plug in full battery next day

(Ruling out non driveway there)

However on my way to work I pass a telsa and a leaf parked on street, they must manage it! But then there is a charger at the shell garage up the road

The father in law is changing jobs.. maintaining petrol pumps but also now installing chargers at forcourts .. I saw the shell program where the CEO said they going to have chargers at all garages
		
Click to expand...

I keep hearing that but I don't see the evidence. A brand new supermarket was built behind my factory last year, it opened in April. 350 parking spaces, 2 chargers. That's a new place, built from the ground up. If they are serious about this then it should have been flooded with chargers. Equally, throughout my town I see the odd charger in public car parks but nothing of note. 2 here, 2 there. Nowhere near enough to give comfort to people that changing now is right.

I do think you are right about people having to change from what they are used to. That will be part of the battle, we are going from something that is very convenient and simple to something that requires more work and planning.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think the fact that there are over 38,000 charging points in the uk and 13 garages selling hydrogen tells me where we will be.
		
Click to expand...

It is not quite as clear cut as that. The infrastucture to go to Hydrogen is already there, it just needs adapations from exisiting forecourts. They could go from 13 to 500 in no time if the tech and cars became available. Each garage can then service x thousands of cars per day. Far easier to upgrade than installing electric points everywhere, as we are seeing, or not seeing.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I keep hearing that but I don't see the evidence. A brand new supermarket was built behind my factory last year, it opened in April. 350 parking spaces, 2 chargers. That's a new place, built from the ground up. If they are serious about this then it should have been flooded with chargers. Equally, throughout my town I see the odd charger in public car parks but nothing of note. 2 here, 2 there. Nowhere near enough to give comfort to people that changing now is right.

I do think you are right about people having to change from what they are used to. That will be part of the battle, we are going from something that is very convenient and simple to something that requires more work and planning.
		
Click to expand...

I think every space needs a charger  well every few spaces .. then they could do 2 spaces at once
But they can be added afters easily


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 11, 2021)

city driving will be EV.
But anything where you need a big range will be hydrogen with EV built in for city centres.
Wagons ,trains ,busses etc can’t be sitting around for hours recharging.
But in city centres I do see EV being the transport forced on people by regulations.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			city driving will be EV.
But anything where you need a big range will be hydrogen with EV built in for city centres.
Wagons ,trains ,busses etc can’t be sitting around for hours recharging.
But in city centres I do see EV being the transport forced on people by regulations.
		
Click to expand...

38% of the rail network is electrified now 

Hopefully more to follow


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You mean the Lithium that is used in every mobile phone, tablet and laptop on the planet?
_I agree it's not ideal, but the quatities required are far less than what a car needs_
Or Cobalt that is also used to remove sulphur from oil?
_Aren't we aiming to stop the production of internal combustion engines?_
Or should we carry on raping the planet of oil, coal and gas and burning it to make electricity to make the hydrogen?
_As you keep saying, electricity can be made from many different sources. Just how do you intend to make the electricity to charge your EV or is that a different type of electric?_

Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

Nuclear is one. They are building micro reactors over the country

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54703204

Easy to do in the small scale apparently 


Also we are a tiny island with rubbish weather 
..perfect for more and more wind farms .. solar aswell


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			38% of the rail network is electrified now 

Hopefully more to follow
		
Click to expand...

I'm surprised at that, thought it would be much higher.


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## chellie (Mar 11, 2021)

Would you buy an electric car?

No, as we could never afford one.


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2021)

chellie said:



			Would you buy an electric car?

No, as we could never afford one.
		
Click to expand...

Just as aside, and I have no idea what your budget is, but...

2 years ago, one of my golf partners leased a new Nissan Leaf. It was 220 up front, and then 220 a month for 2 years. So total 5500 for two years.

Sounds expensive, but there is no road tax, no mot, no congestion charge, no depreciation, very little servicing, no initial expense to buy (1000s), no bank loan, and very cheap to charge. Very much fixed price motoring.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm surprised at that, thought it would be much higher.
		
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Got to think of the miles and miles of track in the middle of no where that has to be diesel run because the cost to run the 3rd rail is just too high


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Just as aside, and I have no idea what your budget is, but...

2 years ago, one of my golf partners leased a new Nissan Leaf. It was 220 up front, and then 220 a month for 2 years. So total 5500 for two years.

Sounds expensive, but there is no road tax, no mot, no congestion charge, no depreciation, very little servicing, no initial expense to buy (1000s), no bank loan, and very cheap to charge. Very much fixed price motoring.
		
Click to expand...

What was the mileage limit on that? Those numbers seem keen so I'm guessing the limit was low


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 11, 2021)

I keep hearing people say "lease" with cars, but has anyone else seen the pictures of Rockingham circuit, now used as a giant car park for the ex-lease cars that were returned for whatever reason?
It really is quite scary. At some point the lease market will collapse.


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What was the mileage limit on that? Those numbers seem keen so I'm guessing the limit was low
		
Click to expand...

No idea, but for many, how many miles do people really do? Go shopping, golf club, drop kids at school, and that's about it. His Mrs has a Peugeot SUV that is used for longer journeys. TBH, I don't think the SUV hoes anywhere either, but it's a company car.
I think alot of people have zero idea of what their real mileage is.


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## bobmac (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



_Just how do you intend to make the electricity to charge your EV or *is that a different type of electric*?_

Click to expand...

I would say yes.
You could use electricity made by mining, transporting, storing and burning fossil fuels or you could charge an EV from batteries charged by solar panels.
I know which I would choose


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## oxymoron (Mar 12, 2021)

I would consider an EV the only problem is no off road parking and untill we get a solution to this and widely implement it i do not see a chance of moving to electric.
The local council(Sheffield) are installing chargers but not anywhere near where i live and the ones they are putting in will cost @30p per Kw for the first hour then £10 an hour after 
that , no idea how that works out cost wise but doesnt seem all that cheap to me , to be fair i have not really looked though .


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## Leftitshort (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I keep hearing people say "lease" with cars, but has anyone else seen the pictures of Rockingham circuit, now used as a giant car park for the ex-lease cars that were returned for whatever reason?
It really is quite scary. At some point the lease market will collapse.
		
Click to expand...

You mean de-fleeted vehicles ready for auction? These’s cars pretty much support the used vehicle market in the U.K. it’s a growth market. 
To answer the question yes, but I wouldn’t buy. I’d deffo lease. If the tech is superseded & the residual value drops it’s someone else’s problem


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 12, 2021)

oxymoron said:



			I would consider an EV the only problem is no off road parking and untill we get a solution to this and widely implement it i do not see a chance of moving to electric.
The local council(Sheffield) are installing chargers but not anywhere near where i live and the ones they are putting in will cost @30p per Kw for the first hour then £10 an hour after
that , no idea how that works out cost wise but doesnt seem all that cheap to me , to be fair i have not really looked though .
		
Click to expand...

I would think that’s a charge to stop you parking your car in a charger for more than the first hour so other people can use it.
So you don’t leave it there all day.
I have seen ice cars in charging points they should be heavily fined for such selfish behaviour imo.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 12, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			You mean de-fleeted vehicles ready for auction? These’s cars pretty much support the used vehicle market in the U.K. it’s a growth market.
To answer the question yes, but I wouldn’t buy. I’d deffo lease. If the tech is superseded & the residual value drops it’s someone else’s problem
		
Click to expand...

The article said they were ex lease cars, beyond that I have no knowledge other than there were thousands all parked up with no-where to go.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 12, 2021)

Theres lots of things you"could" do, but lets be realistic electricity is electricty, and your EV is going ot be charged by eletcricity created by the same as everything else so it's going to be just as polluting and enviromentally damaging as every other item that uses electricity.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The article said they were ex lease cars, beyond that I have no knowledge other than there were thousands all parked up with no-where to go.
		
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That's because people are handing back cars but second hand cars are hardly flying off the forcourts ATM with people skint or working from home ..

They will be bargains soon enough


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Theres lots of things you"could" do, but lets be realistic electricity is electricty, and your EV is going ot be charged by eletcricity created by the same as everything else so it's going to be just as polluting and enviromentally damaging as every other item that uses electricity.
		
Click to expand...

The point is we as a national are working towards getting the grid greener ... So all electric will be less harmful to the environment

My energy company say all my electric is from green .. but heck comes down same wire 

One day most if not all will be green


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because people are handing back cars but second hand cars are hardly flying off the forcourts ATM with people skint or working from home ..

They will be bargains soon enough
		
Click to expand...

Chatting to the chaps at the dealership I got my car recently, and it's the used market thats kept them afloat. New cars have dropped off the cliff, but used are selling straight away.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Chatting to the chaps at the dealership I got my car recently, and it's the used market thats kept them afloat. New cars have dropped off the cliff, but used are selling straight away.
		
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Majority of new cars are paid by PCP or finance (88%) 

People don't want to commit ATM ... Hardly surprising


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## harpo_72 (Mar 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Chatting to the chaps at the dealership I got my car recently, and it's the used market thats kept them afloat. New cars have dropped off the cliff, but used are selling straight away.
		
Click to expand...

Might be the public has worked out the taxing policy.. you get hit in year 2 ,3 ... and most cars are over 40k .
There are threats on emissions of electric cars, the buying public are not being encouraged but having a slow erosion of confidence. 
We also have to build up the charging infrastructure, or re-educate either way we need to have smaller batteries in the vehicles and quicker charge times.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2021)

Weird things about being an electric car owner

I've done 1000 miles now 

Keep driving past petrol garages thinking haven't been to one of you in ages..

1000 miles and had to do the screen wash when first arrived but no oil to check so bonnet has remained closed 

It just feels weird the lack of effort


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Theres lots of things you"could" do, but lets be realistic electricity is electricty, and your EV is going ot be charged by eletcricity created by the same as everything else so it's going to be just as polluting and enviromentally damaging as every other item that uses electricity.
		
Click to expand...

How can charging an EV with solar panels pollute and damage the environment?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How can charging an EV with solar panels pollute and damage the environment?
		
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I'd love to get a battery aswell for side of house .. charge up during day and then use to charge when needed


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How can charging an EV with solar panels pollute and damage the environment?
		
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I think the answer is that solar panels have to be manufactured and that process could create pollution and use up other natural resources 
obviously once made there is no pollution, until end of life as they will need replacing after however many years, hopefully much is recycled


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I think the answer is that solar panels have to be manufactured and that process could create pollution and use up other natural resources
obviously once made there is no pollution, until end of life as they will need replacing after however many years, hopefully much is recycled
		
Click to expand...

Unless of course the factory that makes the solar panels, also makes its own electricity.

Start at 7:56


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd love to get a battery aswell for side of house .. charge up during day and then use to charge when needed
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure they can be retrofitted and you don't need to pay Tesla power wall prices.
Power your house and your car free on those cloudy days.
And if there's no sun for days/weeks, charge your house batteries overnight when the electricity is thrupence a gallon


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Unless of course the factory that makes the solar panels, also makes its own electricity.

Start at 7:56







Click to expand...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...lean-why-do-they-produce-so-much-toxic-waste/

Touché


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...lean-why-do-they-produce-so-much-toxic-waste/

Touché
		
Click to expand...

https://www.selectsolar.co.uk/prod/1189/renogy-100w-flexible-panel


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2021)

Nice product Bob, I’m sure it’s very efficient 
However the article doesn’t make any reference to the manufacturing process, doesn’t say what the raw materials are and fails to make any mention of recyclability.

You stated that solar energy is clean energy, it is after manufacture and before end of life, but it plainly is not clean in manufacturing and recycling

Hopefully future advances will help alleviate these issues,


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Nice product Bob, I’m sure it’s very efficient
However the article doesn’t make any reference to the manufacturing process, doesn’t say what the raw materials are and fails to make any mention of recyclability.

You stated that solar energy is clean energy, it is after manufacture and before end of life, but it plainly is not clean in manufacturing and recycling

Hopefully future advances will help alleviate these issues,
		
Click to expand...

I agree but the point is, renewable energy is the cheapest, cleanest and often the most convenient way of fuelling your house/car.
And it wont run out. 
Oil, gas and coal will run out.
I can't see people installing a nuclear power plant or a hydrogen factory on their driveway any time soon.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I agree but the point is, renewable energy is the cheapest, cleanest and often the most convenient way of fuelling your house/car.
And it wont run out. 
Oil, gas and coal will run out.
I can't see people installing a nuclear power plant or a hydrogen factory on their driveway any time soon.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your points but EVs are not convenient if you don't have off street parking or do long journeys which is a considerable percentage of the motoring population.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I agree but the point is, renewable energy is the cheapest, cleanest and often the most convenient way of fuelling your house/car.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly nowhere true for a good percentage of the population 

It’s not cheap to buy the vehicles , it’s not cheap to install solar panels

And electric cars are nowhere near convenient for millions 




			And it wont run out.
Oil, gas and coal will run out.
I can't see people installing a nuclear power plant or a hydrogen factory on their driveway any time soon.
		
Click to expand...

When will fossil fuels run out ? There are thousands of fields around the world untapped currently , huge reservoirs or oil to be mined , same with coal 

Green renewable energy gives some people a nice fluffy feeling but the world relies and will do for many years to come on fossil fuels - those fossil fuels allow those pink and fluffy cars to be built in the first place 

It’s starting to become like a cult where others are standing upon a pedestal pointing down at the unworthy who don’t have an electric car and are ruining the planet


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 13, 2021)

I wouldn’t be seen dead in a pink fluffy car 
Just sayin 😎


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The article said they were ex lease cars, beyond that I have no knowledge other than there were thousands all parked up with no-where to go.
		
Click to expand...

I can confirm that they are vehicles that have reached the  end of their lease and will now be going either to auction or to used car dealerships.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because people are handing back cars but second hand cars are hardly flying off the forcourts ATM with people skint or working from home ..

They will be bargains soon enough
		
Click to expand...

With the redemption costs involved in early termination there are not very many that are "handed back".


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			With the redemption costs involved in early termination there are not very many that are "handed back".
		
Click to expand...

At end of lease or PCP without signing up to ne deal


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			At end of lease or PCP without signing up to ne deal
		
Click to expand...

So they don't replace their car at the end of the term?

The vehicles at Rockingham are sold into the trade, either directly or via the auctions.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s starting to become like a cult where others are standing upon a pedestal pointing down at the unworthy who don’t have an electric car and are ruining the planet
		
Click to expand...

I'm done


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm done
		
Click to expand...

Bit like an electric car after 150 miles 😉


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

According to Wiki (not the most reliable, accepted), it takes between  4 and 20 years to pay back on the installation of solar panels, the average is 11 years. That is just to pay back, whilst using normal electric use in the home, heating, hot water, what ever it powers.

Add charging a car to this, and it's going to be a long time before this is really viable in the UK, I can maybe see it working in the Mediterranean. 

Yes, the tech might change, improve, but that will take time, and probably add cost. Add in the cost of a battery to store, plus the cost of the EV, and I am doubtful this solution will be viable any time soon.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			According to Wiki (not the most reliable, accepted), it takes between  4 and 20 years to pay back on the installation of solar panels, the average is 11 years. That is just to pay back, whilst using normal electric use in the home, heating, hot water, what ever it powers.

Add charging a car to this, and it's going to be a long time before this is really viable in the UK, I can maybe see it working in the Mediterranean.

Yes, the tech might change, improve, but that will take time, and probably add cost. Add in the cost of a battery to store, plus the cost of the EV, and I am doubtful this solution will be viable any time soon.
		
Click to expand...

I will finance mine with equity release which means all I get is a vast reduction in my monthly fuel bill


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I will finance mine with equity release which means all I get is a vast reduction in my monthly fuel bill 

Click to expand...

Oooh..... The next PPI scandal 😳


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## Captainron (Mar 13, 2021)

I’m in the market for a new vehicle and I will 100% NOT be looking at a full electric vehicle. I do 30000 odd miles a year and the current crop won’t suit me at all.

I will, however, be getting a hybrid of sorts purely for tax purposes. I would have gone for a full diesel if the tax wasn’t such a killer


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I’m in the market for a new vehicle and I will 100% NOT be looking at a full electric vehicle. I do 30000 odd miles a year and the current crop won’t suit me at all.

I will, however, be getting a hybrid of sorts purely for tax purposes. I would have gone for a full diesel if the tax wasn’t such a killer
		
Click to expand...

Is the tax more than the fuel bill difference?


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## Captainron (Mar 13, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Is the tax more than the fuel bill difference?
		
Click to expand...

I’ll save about £225 a month in tax so yes it’s massive.


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## Leftitshort (Mar 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I’ll save about £225 a month in tax so yes it’s massive.
		
Click to expand...

Get a phev or a pick up. Tax savings in both will be about the same. You’ll get some great economy from the phev if you bother charging it 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I’m in the market for a new vehicle and I will 100% NOT be looking at a full electric vehicle. I do 30000 odd miles a year and the current crop won’t suit me at all.

I will, however, be getting a hybrid of sorts purely for tax purposes. I would have gone for a full diesel if the tax wasn’t such a killer
		
Click to expand...

What are you looking at? Always interesting to see what people fancy. I was looking a year ago and a hybrid Superb was the best option out there. I didn't get one in the end, I bought my lease Superb instead. There are probably more options out there now in that size of car. A friend of mine has just swapped for a plug in Evoque.


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## Captainron (Mar 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What are you looking at? Always interesting to see what people fancy. I was looking a year ago and a hybrid Superb was the best option out there. I didn't get one in the end, I bought my lease Superb instead. There are probably more options out there now in that size of car. A friend of mine has just swapped for a plug in Evoque.
		
Click to expand...

Superb 

I want the biggest vehicle I can get


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

I reckon in 4-5 years you'll have solid state batteries with a range of 500 miles and 10-15 minute charging


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## Captainron (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I reckon in 4-5 years you'll have solid state batteries with a range of 500 miles and 10-15 minute charging
		
Click to expand...

Until then I won’t bother with full electric


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Superb 

I want the biggest vehicle I can get
		
Click to expand...


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## Captainron (Mar 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



View attachment 35581

Click to expand...

Fugly


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## Imurg (Mar 13, 2021)

And not big enough...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Superb 

I want the biggest vehicle I can get
		
Click to expand...

It fits the brief then 😄. After you've had it a while please post about it. I'm interested to hear real life experiences with it. Particularly, how far will it actually go on pure electric. I don't believe the guff, same as with all mpg figures.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2021)

https://thedriven.io/2021/03/09/for...i-fuel-cell-car-belies-problem-with-hydrogen/


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## bobmac (Mar 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://thedriven.io/2021/03/09/for...i-fuel-cell-car-belies-problem-with-hydrogen/

Click to expand...

There is one for sale on autotrader, 4 years old, £27,995  

For those of you who have children/grandchildren living in towns and cities, this might be of interest ...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There is one for sale on autotrader, 4 years old, £27,995  

For those of you who have children/grandchildren living in towns and cities, this might be of interest ...







Click to expand...

The bit that was telling to me about hydrogen was Germany making it work.... But investment of billions

Think we have gone for cheaper option

I like that may has a telsa and did have hydrogen.. he seems to know his stuff more than the other 2


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2021)

Interesting read 

https://thedriven.io/2021/03/09/for...el-cell-car-belies-problem-with-hydrogen/amp/


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Interesting read

https://thedriven.io/2021/03/09/for...el-cell-car-belies-problem-with-hydrogen/amp/

Click to expand...

As posted 3 posts ago lol but yes interesting read 

Interesting he has a telsa aswell


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			As posted 3 posts ago lol but yes interesting read

Interesting he has a telsa aswell
		
Click to expand...

And a BMW i3


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			As posted 3 posts ago lol but yes interesting read 

Interesting he has a telsa aswell
		
Click to expand...

Should have gone to Specsavers 😳


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2021)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...flix-now-you-can-subscribe-to-an-electric-car

I've posted the link to the service before but I think this will become a popular thing soon for fixed priced motoring and electric roll out.

Just under £400 a month for a Renault Zoe.. including insurance. Maintenance.. servicing . Tyres  the works and 1000 miles worth of free charge on street 

Now the older generation won't see benefits of the insurance bits but for example im 33 and My cheapest insurance to date been around £450.. before that £1000,800,700 and so on.. I don't think I'll ever get to the stage My parents are in of £200.. our generation will be locked out of them 

So it will appeal to younger people more. And with no deposit it is better for the young aswell who struggle with deposits 

Not for everyone ofc .. feel I need to add this to every comment these days ...

But like some have said you can swap out for a longer range one if needed


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

Bit of a record seen this morning... Of the twenty or so charging places at our Aldi EIGHT were being used in the manner intended... Generally, at best, it's usually only a couple I've seen hooked up...


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Bit of a record seen this morning... Of the twenty or so charging places at our Aldi EIGHT were being used in the manner intended... Generally, at best, it's usually only a couple I've seen hooked up...
		
Click to expand...

Your Aldi has 20 charging points? Where is that please?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Your Aldi has 20 charging points? Where is that please?
		
Click to expand...


I reside in Ruislip... Next door [to Aldi], in the entertainment 'complex'/Asda, there are probably as many as 100 charging points...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I reside in Ruislip... Next door [to Aldi], in the entertainment 'complex'/Asda, there are probably as many as 100 charging points...
		
Click to expand...

Now that is what is needed , proper numbers involved


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Now that is what is needed , proper numbers involved
		
Click to expand...

''I'm not fitting chargers, no-one's got an EV.''

''I'm not getting an EV, no-one's got any chargers''

Hopefully a thing of the past


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			''I'm not fitting chargers, no-one's got an EV.''

''I'm not getting an EV, no-one's got any chargers''

Hopefully a thing of the past 

Click to expand...

My father in law (can't remember if I posted) just accepted a job back in his old field (maintaining and fitting petrol pumps) but anyways now part of his work is to install electric car charge stations at forecourts


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			''I'm not fitting chargers, no-one's got an EV.''

''I'm not getting an EV, no-one's got any chargers''

Hopefully a thing of the past 

Click to expand...


That is way these things go. Then they reach a tipping point and it goes crazy. The availability of chargers plays off against the range too.


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## larmen (Mar 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Your Aldi has 20 charging points? Where is that please?
		
Click to expand...

We got a new Lidl in Hampton and it has quite a few as well. Those Germans, what are they like? ;-)

(They probably just rent the space to electric charging companies)


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## larmen (Mar 16, 2021)

Today’s fully charged show, the Lee concept seems different. Might be interesting what coming out if it, a bit like Lego.


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## banjofred (Mar 17, 2021)

Almost no points here in Harrogate. Just looking at a list and most would be private....like at a hotel. If the numbers around this part of the country increase dramatically......then I would be interested. The points here in Harrogate aren't the problem for me though......it's how many points are in places nicely spaced around the country. Right now......no-where near enough.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 17, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Almost no points here in Harrogate. Just looking at a list and most would be private....like at a hotel. If the numbers around this part of the country increase dramatically......then I would be interested. The points here in Harrogate aren't the problem for me though......it's how many points are in places nicely spaced around the country. Right now......no-where near enough.
		
Click to expand...

How many do you need and where do you want to go? ChargePoints everywhere. I’d understand if charging at home is not possible though.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

Electric cars got that bit more expensive

The grant been slashed from £3000 to £2500 from tomorrow apparently 

Then cars over 35k no grant


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## Smiffy (Mar 19, 2021)

New Peugeot 308 coming later in the year. Love this colour. And available as all electric.


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## banjofred (Mar 19, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			How many do you need and where do you want to go? ChargePoints everywhere. I’d understand if charging at home is not possible though.
		
Click to expand...

Charging at home not an issue, small detached house with drive. For instance.....I checked the Redcar area......at first I thought there just might be a fair amount of chargers, but then I noticed that places had 1 or 2 chargers but weren't available (broken?). Others had 1 or 2 chargers....that means if I were to stop there I would have to hope that the points were open (not in use or broken) or I'd have to drive to another place and hope another charge point was available. I don't want to have to hope, I want to *know. *There are only a few points here in Harrogate (that I know of....yes, I realise I might be missing some) that seem available to the public. Most are in hotel type parking lots for customers. It will be at least a couple of years before I'm ready to even think about changing out of our current car (less than 2 years old).....I'm hoping by that time there will be a huge increase in the *easy* availability of charging points. Right now, when you watch a YouTube it seems people have to really plan ahead and then hope things are working. 

I'm actually a perfect candidate for electric. My wife and I do almost all of our driving within 15 miles of Harrogate (golf course and grocery store)....once the country starts opening up again we will take the occasional few days away to the coast etc. The charge points need to be made easy to find, real easy. At this point, not yet. 

I fully admit that I am basing my views on what I read and see online.....without doing much research. I could be wrong. But until I start seeing obvious charge points (as I do with petrol stations) scattered around.....it's too complicated for most people.


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## woofers (Mar 19, 2021)

OK, it would seem that cost, range and ease of re-charging are the main points of contention. All good reasons currently for me not to consider replacing my current car.
One other thing that concerns me is the possibility of the manufacturer exerting some control and influence on the ongoing operation of the vehicle - for example, I read recently that Tesla(?) were able to download instructions to cars that would switch off / disable the rear seat heating function. I don’t like the idea that anything can be changed remotely. How accurate is my concern?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

woofers said:



			OK, it would seem that cost, range and ease of re-charging are the main points of contention. All good reasons currently for me not to consider replacing my current car.
One other thing that concerns me is the possibility of the manufacturer exerting some control and influence on the ongoing operation of the vehicle - for example, I read recently that Tesla(?) were able to download instructions to cars that would switch off / disable the rear seat heating function. I don’t like the idea that anything can be changed remotely. How accurate is my concern?
		
Click to expand...

Only telsa really have that control 

Their a law until themsleves 

Their basically apple


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## banjofred (Mar 19, 2021)

woofers said:



			OK, it would seem that cost, range and ease of re-charging are the main points of contention. All good reasons currently for me not to consider replacing my current car.
One other thing that concerns me is the possibility of the manufacturer exerting some control and influence on the ongoing operation of the vehicle - for example, I read recently that Tesla(?) were able to download instructions to cars that would switch off / disable the rear seat heating function. I don’t like the idea that anything can be changed remotely. How accurate is my concern?
		
Click to expand...

If that's true, I'd be unhappy. I don't like my car to do things without me doing them. I'm still not a huge fan of ABS brakes.


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## USER1999 (Mar 19, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			New Peugeot 308 coming later in the year. Love this colour. And available as all electric.






Click to expand...

That is a colour I love too. Really wanted my Mercedes in that colour, but given they only made 80 odd of the model I own, no one was ever mad enough to order one. That said, the Mrs has banned me from getting mine wrapped. No taste. None.


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## bobmac (Mar 19, 2021)

banjofred said:



			If that's true, I'd be unhappy. I don't like my car to do things without me doing them. I'm still not a huge fan of ABS brakes.
		
Click to expand...

From what I gather it's like windows upgrading your computer.
You go to bed with 500 BHP and in the morning you have 550 BHP
Or a sat nav upgrade etc


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## woofers (Mar 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			From what I gather it's like windows upgrading your computer.
You go to bed with 500 BHP and in the morning you have 550 BHP
Or a sat nav upgrade etc
		
Click to expand...

Might lead to some interesting Insurance Q&A’s:
Has the car been modified in any way ?
Although I guess if the manufacturer is doing it, with or without your knowledge, that would be OK.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2021)

See I think this is naughty

Proof they can do it cheaper 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/...rice-cut-responds-new-plug-car-grant-criteria

Lowering the price (yes by only £550 but I'm sure others will be by more) to make them eligible for the grant from the gov now they changed it to have an upper limit

Altho maybe this will force car makers to reduce prices all round as they don't cost that much more anymore their just protecting their Ice market


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

So today marks 2 months since the Corsa arrives 

I'm at work ATM so milage I've done is 1301 in that time but will be 1325 by tonight.

Total costs to charge at home £15.17

So 1p per mile ATM 


However I been lucky. We have 1 3 pin plug at work that we are allowed to use in the car park. 4 of us with ev or phevs so we share 

I've had a week with nobody else in so a free week this week 

Today nobody in so gonna get me to 100% before I leave 

It's limited to 2kwph rather than 3 so it's really slow but it's better than nothing tops up nicely (especially on nights)

Very happy ATM 

In contrast in that time I filled up the alhambra before the car arrived and it's done 150 miles .. 100 of them just giving it a run to work to make sure it's ticking over


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

I think the best way to sum up this thread is..... 

If you enjoy driving get a conventional car

If you just want to get from A to B get an EV


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## Smiffy (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think the best way to sum up this thread is.....

If you enjoy driving get a conventional car
		
Click to expand...

Don't kid yourself Gordon. Go and drive an electric.
Unless you are totally against automatics I think you will be very impressed.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Don't kid yourself Gordon. Go and drive an electric.
Unless you are totally against automatics I think you will be very impressed.
		
Click to expand...

Ah mate I'm with you there .... I love driving it .. instant power at the lights have to slow down

Very nice in the corners


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think the best way to sum up this thread is.....

If you enjoy driving get a conventional car

If you just want to get from A to B get an EV
		
Click to expand...

Try a telsa model s. You won't be complaining with that beast


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Try a telsa model s. You won't be complaining with that beast
		
Click to expand...

Does a car become fun to drive because it is quick?

Where would a Mazda MX5 fit in that world?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Does a car become fun to drive because it is quick?

Where would a Mazda MX5 fit in that world?
		
Click to expand...

Instant torque from electric cars is just one of the reasons their fun. Loaded with tech . Not for everyone but don't hear many people who get them (who have researched if they suit their lifestyle rather than just think ooo I'll save money in fuel) want to change back


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Don't kid yourself Gordon. Go and drive an electric.
Unless you are totally against automatics I think you will be very impressed.
		
Click to expand...

Got an automatic Rob and been in an EV, prefer mine every time.


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Got an automatic Rob and been in an EV, prefer mine every time.
		
Click to expand...

Even at one penny per mile? that's about 550 mpg


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Try a telsa model s. You won't be complaining with that beast
		
Click to expand...

Have you got £100k to spend on a car? 

I spent £22k on a 3yo BMW 335d and had it remapped to 400bhp. Search the Internet and you will see similar cars doing 0-60 in around 3.8s, 0-100 in 9s and standing 1/4 mile in sub 12s.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Even at one penny per mile? that's about 550 mpg
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but I can drive 550 miles without having to stop for several hours to recharge it.
And if I want 550mpg I have a choice of 2 cycles 😉


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yeah but I can drive 550 miles without having to stop for several hours to recharge it.
		
Click to expand...

When do you drive 550 miles in one go tho really?

And ok try the model 3 only 40k brand new .. second hand will be coming in similar in a few years to your BMW 

300 miles to a charge 

Open to the telsa super charge network aswell so can recharge in under an hour


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Have you got £100k to spend on a car?

I spent £22k on a 3yo BMW 335d and had it remapped to 400bhp. Search the Internet and you will see similar cars doing 0-60 in around 3.8s, 0-100 in 9s and standing 1/4 mile in sub 12s.
		
Click to expand...

A second hand Tesla is down to £24,950 please note the free supercharging.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202103210399835?model=MODEL S&include-delivery-option=on&postcode=ng348xf&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=price-asc&make=TESLA&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&page=1



drive4show said:



			Yeah but I can drive 550 miles without having to stop for several hours to recharge it.
And if I want 550mpg I have a choice of 2 cycles 😉
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't dream of driving 10 hours without a stop.
As for charging times, things have improved in the last few years, 20-80% about 30 mins
Did I mention free petrol?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			When do you drive 550 miles in one go tho really?

And ok try the model 3 only 40k brand new .. second hand will be coming in similar in a few years to your BMW

300 miles to a charge

Open to the telsa super charge network aswell so can recharge in under an hour
		
Click to expand...

When I can get a model 3 for £22k I'll consider it. 
Every time I drive home to Scotland it's 475 miles, can do it without having to refuel.


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			When do you drive 550 miles in one go tho really?

And ok try the model 3 only 40k brand new .. second hand will be coming in similar in a few years to your BMW

300 miles to a charge

Open to the telsa super charge network aswell so can recharge in under an hour
		
Click to expand...

I saw the model 3 on top gear. It was fast, granted, and in the slalom track thing they had layed out, it beat a proper fast car. But, wow did it wobble about, and in my view, that did not look at all fun to drive, especially if I then have to clean Mrs Mogs vomit out of the footwell.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A second hand Tesla is down to £24,950 please note the free supercharging.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202103210399835?model=MODEL S&include-delivery-option=on&postcode=ng348xf&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=price-asc&make=TESLA&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&page=1



I wouldn't dream of driving 10 hours without a stop.
As for charging times, things have improved in the last few years, 20-80% about 30 mins
		
Click to expand...

Wow didn't realise the cost was down so low already 

The free super charging is amazing they don't do that now but do for lifetime of that car ..

Says 68kw usable batter which is amazing . With the 150kw super chargers (faster ones available) you could recharge that in what 40 mins? If you were empty


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A second hand Tesla is down to £24,950 please note the free supercharging.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202103210399835?model=MODEL S&include-delivery-option=on&postcode=ng348xf&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=price-asc&make=TESLA&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&page=1



I wouldn't dream of driving 10 hours without a stop.
As for charging times, things have improved in the last few years, 20-80% about 30 mins
Did I mention free petrol?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not prepared to spend £25k on a 7 year old car with 92k on the clock.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			When I can get a model 3 for £22k I'll consider it.
Every time I drive home to Scotland it's 475 miles, can do it without having to refuel.
		
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Bob has just posted one for 24 can you haggle? Lol


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Even at one penny per mile? that's about 550 mpg
		
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Why does mileage equal fun?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm not prepared to spend £25k on a 7 year old car with 92k on the clock.
		
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92k on the clock doesn't matter with electric cars .. that's old school thinking .. Less moving parts and less servicable parts they last longer


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			92k on the clock doesn't matter with electric cars .. that's old school thinking .. Less moving parts and less servicable parts they last longer
		
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And a very cheap interior that does not age at all well.


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

And if you drove 550 miles without stopping, you'd have to come back again so 1100miles round trip at 40mpg about £150 
That's £150  more than a Tesla


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			92k on the clock doesn't matter with electric cars .. that's old school thinking .. Less moving parts and less servicable parts they last longer
		
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The batteries don't last forever and they aren't cheap to replace. 
In my view EVs are fine for short journeys around town but unless you have a serious budget then ICE is better for everything else. Especially if you want a bit of fun.


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Why does mileage equal fun?
		
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D4s was complaining about the cost of the car, I was just pointing you might save a few £s running it


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And if you drove 550 miles without stopping, you'd have to come back again so 1100miles round trip at 40mpg about £150
That's £150  more than a Tesla
		
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Which Tesla will you be buying?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			D4s was complaining about the cost of the car, I was just pointing you might save a few £s running it
		
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I can afford a lot of fuel if I don't buy a 100 grand car 😉


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Which Tesla will you be buying?
		
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You're joking, have you seen the price of them?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			The batteries don't last forever and they aren't cheap to replace.
In my view EVs are fine for short journeys around town but unless you have a serious budget then ICE is better for everything else. Especially if you want a bit of fun.
		
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They are clever with battery management tho , so for example my car is 50kw battery but 46 or 47 usable 

As the battery ages it manages it so the 3-4 not being used replace the ones that have worn

That model 3 has 84 kw with 68 available that's a lot of spare


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They are clever with battery management tho , so for example my car is 50kw battery but 46 or 47 usable

As the battery ages it manages it so the 3-4 not being used replace the ones that have worn

That model 3 has 84 kw with 68 available that's a lot of spare
		
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I have 400hp, sometimes I only use 380.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I have 400hp, sometimes I only use 380.
		
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But if that bhp wore out it wouldn't be replaced by stored brake horse power in reverse whilst keeping the same power output available


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I have 400hp, sometimes I only use 380.
		
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Sounds a bit under powered to me. I have 577 😇


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Sounds a bit under powered to me. I have 577 😇
		
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Yeah but mine is nearly as economical as an EV cos it will do 50mpg on the motorway 😂😂😂


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yeah but mine is nearly as economical as an EV cos it will do 50mpg on the motorway 😂😂😂
		
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I have not owned a car that does 30 mpg since I was 20.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yeah but mine is nearly as economical as an EV cos it will do 50mpg on the motorway 😂😂😂
		
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Lol 50mpg is nowhere near as economical as an ev ...... Not try doubling it then you still would be short 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

To put into context

45 litre tank using £1.25 as the price for fuel so 10 gallons at 50mpg would be £56 (500 miles range)

Even using the charging during the peak (14p per kw) battery would be £7 to full for 200 miles

So 1.5 charges £17.50

For the same cost can travel 1600 miles

Now will come the usual replies but just those are the figures

Side note the cheap rate is £2.55 a charge so £6.40 im saying to go 500 miles 

For the £56 you can go 4250 miles 

Rather than £476


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

Yes it's true, EVs are expensive to buy, the charging infrastructure isn't there yet and many car owners cant charge at home, but things are changing and faster than most think.
I saw a report once that most peoples knowledge about EVs is about 5 years out of date, which in the EV world is a lifetime.

The motor car replaced the horse but we still have horses, they are now used for leisure and fun.

The petrol car will go the same way, EV for working and your petrol/diesel for fun at the weekend.
You will still be able to buy a new petrol car in 2029, keep it for 20 years, happy days


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Yes it's true, EVs are expensive to buy, the charging infrastructure isn't there yet and many car owners cant charge at home, but things are changing and faster than most think.
I saw a report once that most peoples knowledge about EVs is about 5 years out of date, which in the EV world is a lifetime.

The motor car replaced the horse but we still have horses, they are now used for leisure and fun.

The petrol car will go the same way, EV for working and your petrol/diesel for fun at the weekend.
You will still be able to buy a new petrol car in 2029, keep it for 20 years, happy days
		
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How many people on a side to this have a commuter car and a "weekend car" know so many people like that! Mainly who get company cars then buy a "fun car"

So what's to stop the commuter car being EV and a sports car at weeekends? Ev will be the company car no doubt soon 

We are basically that . Ev weekdays .. Alhambra weekends when all 5 us got to shove our stuff in


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wow didn't realise the cost was down so low already

The free super charging is amazing they don't do that now but do for lifetime of that car ..

Says 68kw usable batter which is amazing . With the 150kw super chargers (faster ones available) you could recharge that in what 40 mins? If you were empty
		
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£24k for a car that’s done nearly 100k miles around 

Only take 40 hours to fully charge

But great news - just the 14 hours  on a quick charge 

That certainly beat the 5mins it takes to fill up the petrol car


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

I kinda flip that on it's head. My fun car is my E85 Z4. It is also my commuter car. I would not want to drive a car I care overly about on my daily commute. My CLS is used at weekends, and for trips to the flat, and holidays.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			£24k for a car that’s done nearly 100k miles around

Only take 40 hours to fully charge

But great news - just the 14 hours  on a quick charge

That certainly beat the 5mins it takes to fill up the petrol car
		
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You don't fully read anything do you Phil? Just fly in feet first 

That's "fast" at home 

Super charge network you can charge that in 40 mins 

Nobody slow charges 

And once again 100 miles on an electric car isn't even run in


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

I haven't owned a Tesla, but I have owned an American car. I have also been to the Tesla dealership in Brent Cross, and had a sit and play in a model S, and a model X. They suffer from being American, and even more so for needing to be light.

The interiors are flimsy, and do not feel very well put together. 100k might be fine for the motors, but from what I have seen, I don't think the interiors will age well. Most American cars disintegrate way before 100k. Americans just don't pay much for cars, they are made to a budget (low), and they don't keep their cars very long.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I haven't owned a Tesla, but I have owned an American car. I have also been to the Tesla dealership in Brent Cross, and had a sit and play in a model S, and a model X. They suffer from being American, and even more so for needing to be light.

The interiors are flimsy, and do not feel very well put together. 100k might be fine for the motors, but from what I have seen, I don't think the interiors will age well. Most American cars disintegrate way before 100k. Americans just don't pay much for cars, they are made to a budget (low), and they don't keep their cars very long.
		
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That's a much better point than 100k on the car itself 

I think the model 3 will be better for it because for 24k you will get a newer one as they are only 40k brand new compared to the model s


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You don't fully read anything do you Phil? Just fly in feet first

That's "fast" at home

Super charge network you can charge that in 40 mins

Nobody slow charges

And once again 100 miles on an electric car isn't even run in
		
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40 mins - so about 8 times as long as filling my current car up and then it’s still not fully charged , it also doesn’t help that there are no points like that in the town I live in , nearest one is 15 miles away ad opposed to my nearest garage 1.2 miles away. Also for the same £24k I can get myself a brand new car with 1 mile on the clock. 

I’m also not in Tesla which appears to be the new BMW driver. It comes with an immediate stigma 



pauljames87 said:



			That's a much better point than 100k on the car itself

I think the model 3 will be better for it because for 24k you will get a newer one as they are only 40k brand new compared to the model s
		
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Just the £40k - wow cheap as chips.


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			100k might be fine for the motors, but from what I have seen, I don't think the interiors will age well. Most American cars disintegrate way before 100k.
		
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No need to worry about the battery life then  
For the last 2 years some of the model 3s are made in Shanghai and in the near future, Berlin.


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No need to worry about the battery life then  
For the last 2 years some of the model 3s are made in Shanghai and in the near future, Berlin.
		
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My Chrysler was assembled in Steyr in Austria. It was still very American.


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## DanFST (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I kinda flip that on it's head. My fun car is my E85 Z4. It is also my commuter car. I would not want to drive a car I care overly about on my daily commute. My CLS is used at weekends, and for trips to the flat, and holidays.
		
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I was going to say typical guy that buys a big merc and thinks he's a driver!

I had an e86 and it's one of the few cars I regret massively not holding onto. Such fun, you have good taste!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			40 mins - so about 8 times as long as filling my current car up and then it’s still not fully charged , it also doesn’t help that there are no points like that in the town I live in , nearest one is 15 miles away ad opposed to my nearest garage 1.2 miles away. Also for the same £24k I can get myself a brand new car with 1 mile on the clock.

I’m also not in Tesla which appears to be the new BMW driver. It comes with an immediate stigma


Just the £40k - wow cheap as chips.
		
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Your worse than the sun you know Phil , misrepresentation all the time 

Should get a collum 

40k brand new 

So second hand in 5 years how much?

Use your Noddle.


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			40 mins - so about 8 times as long as filling my current car up and then it’s still not fully charged , it also doesn’t help that there are no points like that in the town I live in , nearest one is 15 miles away ad opposed to my nearest garage 1.2 miles away. Also for the same £24k I can get myself a brand new car with 1 mile on the clock.

I’m also not in Tesla which appears to be the new BMW driver. It comes with an immediate stigma


Just the £40k - wow cheap as chips.
		
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About the same price as a BMW Z4 sport


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			About the same price as a BMW Z4 sport
		
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That's the thing Bob it's like comparing an apple with a spade

Two cars that are completely different 

What I wnna see in 3 years is the price of an electric Corsa and a ice one second hand and brand new 

There won't be that much in it


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			To put into context

45 litre tank using £1.25 as the price for fuel so 10 gallons at 50mpg would be £56 (500 miles range)

Even using the charging during the peak (14p per kw) battery would be £7 to full for 200 miles

So 1.5 charges £17.50

For the same cost can travel 1600 miles

Now will come the usual replies but just those are the figures

Side note the cheap rate is £2.55 a charge so £6.40 im saying to go 500 miles

For the £56 you can go 4250 miles

Rather than £476
		
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Woosh......


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Your worse than the sun you know Phil , misrepresentation all the time

Should get a collum

40k brand new

*So second hand in 5 years how much?*

Use your Noddle.
		
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Still far more expensive than the equivalent petrol car and prob at the same price as a brand new equivalent though 



bobmac said:



			About the same price as a BMW Z4 sport
		
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But the model 3 isn’t a comparable car to a Z4 - surely you should be comparing it the same level petrol car and its going to be more expensive as well an all the inconvenience that comes with it


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Still far more expensive than the equivalent petrol car and prob at the same price as a brand new equivalent though



But the model 3 isn’t a comparable car to a Z4 - surely you should be comparing it the same level petrol car and its going to be more expensive as well an all the inconvenience that comes with it
		
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Not at all. Do some actual research then come back maybe ? Do EV hold their value the same .. you need to look into it rather than blanket statements as always

And 300 mile telsa doesn't come with much inconvenience day to day. Come home stick on charge wake up full charge ... No need to go out

You miss more points than Liverpool these days .


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Woosh......
		
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Still roughly 125mpg no?


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the model 3 isn’t a comparable car to a Z4 - surely you should be comparing it the same level petrol car and its going to be more expensive as well an all the inconvenience that comes with it
		
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Murph has a BMW Z4, that's why I mentioned it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Murph has a BMW Z4, that's why I mentioned it.
		
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You will never ever convince Phil or change his opinion on any subject

He has his ill researched thoughts and he won't change them for anyone.

Even with evidence he doesn't budge.

I mean the facts are ev will take off with the young generation. Leasing them with insurance built in (£400 pm for a renualt Zoe) insurance, maintain even 1000 mile charge .. if your a young driver that's cheap to get a car (insurance can be stupidly high for youth)

If he came with the proper points like

The fact that each charging point maker has their own payment method (with an app, or order a card) rather than just tap and pay for most (that's changing tho)

Or that chargers haven't always been universal (are now by EU law)

Or even that telsa have their own network that others can't use .. imagine ford had petrol garages just for them

But now outdated views that have been proved wrong time and time again 🤣


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2021)

I’m delivering a VW ID4 tomorrow 
I’ll post my thoughts 👍


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m delivering a VW ID4 tomorrow
I’ll post my thoughts 👍
		
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I'm very interested with that car .. it's a bit out there... I mean the gear stick is where you would find the rear wipes on mine 

Very interesting styling.. again very out there 

I like the leaf that it's been built as a EV car rather than like mine (can't tell the diff) so it's a very good car.. interested to see if vw can 

Because until now German battery size has been pathetic


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You will never ever convince Phil or change his opinion on any subject

He has his ill researched thoughts and he won't change them for anyone.

Even with evidence he doesn't budge.

I mean the facts are ev will take off with the young generation. Leasing them with insurance built in (£400 pm for a renualt Zoe) insurance, maintain even 1000 mile charge .. if your a young driver that's cheap to get a car (insurance can be stupidly high for youth)

If he came with the proper points like

The fact that each charging point maker has their own payment method (with an app, or order a card) rather than just tap and pay for most (that's changing tho)

Or that chargers haven't always been universal (are now by EU law)

Or even that telsa have their own network that others can't use .. imagine ford had petrol garages just for them

But now outdated views that have been proved wrong time and time again 🤣
		
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£400 a month for a car - how many of the “young” generation do you believe afford that - and for a matchbox car 😂😂😂

Here are some fact for you

1. Petrol cars are cheaper to buy brand new and second hand then their equivalent EV ones- Corsa E £27k , Ford Fiesta £17k 

2. It takes 5 mins for someone to fill up their petrol car from empty to full

3. You are never more than 5 mins from a petrol station

4. I don’t need to plug in my petrol car at night

5. Petrol car drivers don’t have a superiority complex over anyone that doesn’t drive a petrol car


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			£400 a month for a car - how many of the “young” generation do you believe afford that - and for a matchbox car 😂😂😂

Here are some fact for you

1. Petrol cars are cheaper to buy brand new and second hand then their equivalent EV ones

2. It takes 5 mins for someone to fill up their petrol car from empty to full

3. You are never more than 5 mins from a petrol station

4. I don’t need to plug in my petrol car at night

5. Petrol car drivers don’t have a superiority complex over anyone that doesn’t drive a petrol car
		
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1. Yes but won't be in the future.. prices are coming down in the main
2. Charging is taking less and less as batteries improve 
3. Yes you are. That's bull. Even in London there are places that are well over 5 mins so talking rubbish (as normal)
4. And? Don't plug mine in every night. Not plugged in now got 83% battery ..
5. Only person with a god complex is you. Always got to be right even when you know bugger all 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			1. *Yes but *won't be in the future.. prices are coming down in the main
2. Charging is taking less and less as batteries improve
3. Yes you are. That's bull. Even in London there are places that are well over 5 mins so talking rubbish (as normal)
4. And? Don't plug mine in every night. Not plugged in now got 83% battery ..
5. Only person with a god complex is you. Always got to be right even when you know bugger all 😂
		
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Yes but 😂😂

£10k more expensive.

£27k for a small car

For less than that people can get a Tiguan now

And unless you have some power to see in the future then anything you suggest about the future is nothing but guessing

When the day comes that an electric car can

Cost the same
Go the same distance
And be refilled in the same time to the same level
And style the same

An electric car for the majority of the country will be second choice

The fact you believe £400 a month is affordable for younger generation to me shows how far out of touch you are with mere petrol driving mortals.

You are one step down from knocking on people’s door telling them to step into the light of the electric car


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## GreiginFife (Mar 21, 2021)

I was interested in the new BMW i4 when it is launched. But rumours have it being M4 money. 
If I am going to spend M4 money, I'd buy an M4. Makes no sense to price it like that. 

So, until a decent looking and decent priced electric car is produced, I will stick with my petrol monstrosity.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes but 😂😂

£10k more expensive.

£27k for a small car

For less than that people can get a Tiguan now

And unless you have some power to see in the future then anything you suggest about the future is nothing but guessing

When the day comes that an electric car can

Cost the same
Go the same distance
And be refilled in the same time to the same level
And style the same

An electric car for the majority of the country will be second choice

The fact you believe £400 a month is affordable for younger generation to me shows how far out of touch you are with mere petrol driving mortals.
		
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How much is insurance a month for a 21 yo ? Looking at £100.
How much is fuel £50 or more
Then as I've said many times a lot of people lease. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it's not true. So that's £200-300 depending easy

Simple maths puts that near £400 pm

Why insurance included schemes are popular. And why this will be good and will be used.

Even if they won't be the same as petrol they are already taking off. Fact

And people need to change their lifestyle long term because reality check Phil. Sometimes you need to change


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

My Z4 is fun. Its actually more than fun. It cost 5500 4 years ago, at 9 years old, and is now worth half that. For what it cost, and how long I will keep it, it doesn't owe me anything. I love this car. I will own it for as long as it is economically viable. I run cars until they die. It does 12000 miles a year.

Mrs Mogs has had her Z3M coupe since 2002. In terms of pollution, ok, it's a petrol 3200cc. In terms of footprint, it's a 23 year old car. Running a car longer is about the greenest thing you can do. It currently does about 3000 miles a year.

My CLS. New, 100k, to me, 3 years old, 40k. The build quality is superb. Again, I will run this car til it dies. Potentially another 10 years minimum, probably longer. I don't change cars often. This will be cherished, and loved. It does 12000 miles a year, roughly.

I don't see that binning one of these, and spending 40k is really going to be saving the planet any time soon. The Z3 doesn't go anywhere, the Z4 has finished depreciating, and anything newer is squandering resources, and the CLS spreads its emissions in the country, not populated areas. It has also in cash terms depreciated 5k in 3 years. That is not bad.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			How much is insurance a month for a 21 yo ? Looking at £100.
How much is fuel £50 or more
Then as I've said many times a lot of people lease. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it's not true. So that's £200-300 depending easy

Simple maths puts that near £400 pm

Why insurance included schemes are popular. And why this will be good and will be used.

Even if they won't be the same as petrol they are already taking off. Fact

And people need to change their lifestyle long term because reality check Phil. Sometimes you need to change
		
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How many 21year olds do you know that spend £200-300 leasing a car ?! 

Most 21 year olds I know have spent about £1k approx on a ten year old plus car


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			£400 a month for a car - how many of the “young” generation do you believe afford that - and for a matchbox car 😂😂😂

Here are some fact for you

1. Petrol cars are cheaper to buy brand new and second hand then their equivalent EV ones- Corsa E £27k , Ford Fiesta £17k

2. It takes 5 mins for someone to fill up their petrol car from empty to full

3. You are never more than 5 mins from a petrol station

4. I don’t need to plug in my petrol car at night

5. Petrol car drivers don’t have a superiority complex over anyone that doesn’t drive a petrol car
		
Click to expand...

Phil you are getting repetitive and a bit boring, you’ve said your piece and we get your opinion.

No EV’s are not for everyone at the moment, that’s a given, yes the price needs to drop, that’s a given.  Charging infrastructure needs to improve, that’s a given

They are cheap to run, great to drive, and the above issues will improve over time.

So why not leave this thread to those who want to discuss the subject rather than just dissing everything


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil you are getting repetitive and a bit boring, you’ve said your piece and we get your opinion.

No EV’s are not for everyone at the moment, that’s a given, yes the price needs to drop, that’s a given.  Charging infrastructure needs to improve, that’s a given

They are cheap to run, great to drive, and the above issues will improve over time.

So why not leave this thread to those who want to discuss the subject rather than just dissing everything
		
Click to expand...

I think the same could be applied to the EV evangelists really. There is nothing new there either.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil you are getting repetitive and a bit boring, you’ve said your piece and we get your opinion.

No EV’s are not for everyone at the moment, that’s a given, yes the price needs to drop, that’s a given.  Charging infrastructure needs to improve, that’s a given

They are cheap to run, great to drive, and the above issues will improve over time.

So why not leave this thread to those who want to discuss the subject rather than just dissing everything
		
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I also really don't understand how plugging a car In at home is a massive inconvenience 🤔

Everyone comes home, locks car , goes in house 

If I need charge now I'll come home, open fuel cap, get the tethered lead (so it's not even find the lead, which is 7 meters walk maybe unless I'm parked next to it as we swapped the cars) plug in.. lock car.. go inside 

It will do its thing 

If I want to charge cheap 

I'll do the same but when I plug in I'll press a button next to the fueling socket that goes blue to say come on at 01:30 

So that's it

Wake up.. full tank 

It's litterally less work for me than stopping on home , in and out my car and paying then driving home 

I get the time .. but the plugging itself it's like plugging in your phone when you go to bed 

Mines even easier now I got an app on my phone I can turn the charger on and off from the sofa if I decide ..


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I think the same could be applied to the EV evangelists really. There is nothing new there either.
		
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Not overly because there is nothing wrong with petrol cars... Just certain people can't see that electric cars aren't some fad that's going away .it's the petrol that's got a sell by date .. 

But that's Phil all over. Come in.. ruin thread. Leave


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## D-S (Mar 21, 2021)

If you’ve got off street parking and you’re a 2 car household without both cars doing long trips at the same time, then it is a serious consideration. This describes my wife and I, so when we look to change one of our cars in a year or so it is a serious option; I hope the battery life has taken a few steps forward by then but the charging infrastructure is not of great relevance, though it would be if we were going to go EV with both cars. If we do get an EV I would like it to be suitably different (not just a normal car with someth different under the bonnet) - hence the Tesla appeals although some of the stories rebuild quality are off putting.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I also really don't understand how plugging a car In at home is a massive inconvenience 🤔

Everyone comes home, locks car , goes in house

If I need charge now I'll come home, open fuel cap, get the tethered lead (so it's not even find the lead, which is 7 meters walk maybe unless I'm parked next to it as we swapped the cars) plug in.. lock car.. go inside

It will do its thing

If I want to charge cheap

I'll do the same but when I plug in I'll press a button next to the fueling socket that goes blue to say come on at 01:30

So that's it

Wake up.. full tank

It's litterally less work for me than stopping on home , in and out my car and paying then driving home

I get the time .. but the plugging itself it's like plugging in your phone when you go to bed

Mines even easier now I got an app on my phone I can turn the charger on and off from the sofa if I decide ..
		
Click to expand...

Are you getting your “Phil’s” mixed up? 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Are you getting your “Phil’s” mixed up? 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Nope, your point was well made I was adding to the fact I don't understand the other Phil's constant pointless point that plugging in is such a massive issue 

Like it takes 20 mins to walk to lead, move lead to car. Plug in .. walk into house


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2021)

@pauljames87 Are you sure you've got your facts right about insurance? If you lease a car I'm pretty sure you need fully comp insurance and I can't see a 21yo in London getting that for £100 a month. A couple of grand a year for 3rd party is probably closer to the mark.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

drive4show said:



@pauljames87 Are you sure you've got your facts right about insurance? If you lease a car I'm pretty sure you need fully comp insurance and I can't see a 21yo in London getting that for £100 a month. A couple of grand a year for 3rd party is probably closer to the mark.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I am. I pointed to this a few times

It's a new scheme

https://on.to/?cat=demand_generic_e...CYCgeitNS46DHRaxBI1gCAA_OlJM90HEaApR9EALw_wcB


Just noticed the insurance is 25 and over however my point stands £400 pm all In
No contract
They will be a good deal for many


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			My Z4 is fun. Its actually more than fun. It cost 5500 4 years ago, at 9 years old, and is now worth half that. For what it cost, and how long I will keep it, it doesn't owe me anything. I love this car. I will own it for as long as it is economically viable. I run cars until they die. It does 12000 miles a year.

Mrs Mogs has had her Z3M coupe since 2002. In terms of pollution, ok, it's a petrol 3200cc. In terms of footprint, it's a 23 year old car. Running a car longer is about the greenest thing you can do. It currently does about 3000 miles a year.

My CLS. New, 100k, to me, 3 years old, 40k. The build quality is superb. Again, I will run this car til it dies. Potentially another 10 years minimum, probably longer. I don't change cars often. This will be cherished, and loved. It does 12000 miles a year, roughly.

I don't see that binning one of these, and spending 40k is really going to be saving the planet any time soon. The Z3 doesn't go anywhere, the Z4 has finished depreciating, and anything newer is squandering resources, and the CLS spreads its emissions in the country, not populated areas. It has also in cash terms depreciated 5k in 3 years. That is not bad.
		
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Sorry Murph,  I was only pointing out to Phil that if you were to replace your BMW Z4 with a new one, you could get a new Tesla model 3 more the same price. And you could get your clubs and trolley in the boot and the misses and the all the shopping.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

Perhaps it’s jus me, but I struggle to understand the financial sensibility in committing to an endless charge of £4800 per year just to have a new car.


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## Smiffy (Mar 22, 2021)

You don't want one of them there new fangled combustion engines to replace your 'orse Ned.
They'll never take orf.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			You don't want one of them there new fangled combustion engines to replace your 'orse Ned.
They'll never take orf.


Click to expand...

Or why would you buy from a company that intends to close its plant in this country to give production back to Europe?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Phil you are getting repetitive and a bit boring, you’ve said your piece and we get your opinion.

No EV’s are not for everyone at the moment, that’s a given, yes the price needs to drop, that’s a given.  Charging infrastructure needs to improve, that’s a given

They are cheap to run, great to drive, and the above issues will improve over time.

So why not leave this thread to those who want to discuss the subject rather than just dissing everything
		
Click to expand...

🥱 Totally agree. We really do need to get out and play some golf to remove people’s anger and desire to leap onto people’s comments in such a rude way.


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## Smiffy (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			🥱 Totally agree. We really do need to get out and play some golf to remove people’s anger and desire to leap onto people’s comments in such a rude way.

Click to expand...

Nuts


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

@PhilTheFragger how was the id4? Or are you stuck in turtle mode lol 🐢


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps it’s jus me, but I struggle to understand the financial sensibility in committing to an endless charge of £4800 per year just to have a new car.
		
Click to expand...

Different way of working things. A lot of people lease. A hell of a lot of people

My lease car will cost me £13200 over 4 years then hand back and start again..

People also struggle to remember that yes some people will go and buy a second hand car for 10k but many will lease because they can't afford to lay down that 3k up front or whatever for a car ..but they can budget for £150 a month for a new car which they need now and not to save up for

Plus if they save for a 3k car less will go wrong in theory with the £150 a month lease

Many ways to skin a cat.

I always pay for my insurance up front but 90% of the people I know who aren't my family pay monthly even tho costs more


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



@PhilTheFragger how was the id4? Or are you stuck in turtle mode lol 🐢
		
Click to expand...

It came off a transporter this morning and they couldn’t get it out of Transport mode

Slightly Miffed


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It came off a transporter this morning and they couldn’t get it out of Transport mode

Slightly Miffed
		
Click to expand...

Oops......


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It came off a transporter this morning and they couldn’t get it out of Transport mode

Slightly Miffed
		
Click to expand...

What's transport mode?1


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## Pants (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What's transport mode?1
		
Click to expand...

Where it doesn't go anywhere on it's own?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What's transport mode?1
		
Click to expand...

Where the battery is flat and needs to go on the back of a truck


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It came off a transporter this morning and they couldn’t get it out of Transport mode

Slightly Miffed
		
Click to expand...

Did you try turning it off and then back on again?


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2021)

Or, maybe, there's a little recessed button underneath - you might need a pin or the prong of a fork to press it and reset...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 22, 2021)

Would i buy an electric car? No, because i think cars should sound like cars not washing machines...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/seat-previews-small-£17000-electric-crossover-2025

That will bring the market more equality


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/seat-previews-small-£17000-electric-crossover-2025

That will bring the market more equality
		
Click to expand...

Good news. Shame it is 4 years away.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good news. Shame it is 4 years away.
		
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Got to think tho if that's 4 years away in 9 years time when the ban comes in for new sales of ice cars then there will be a flurry of reasonable priced new electric cars plus these models working their way to good second hand prices


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## DanFST (Mar 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Would i buy an electric car? No, because i think cars should sound like cars not washing machines...
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Would i buy an electric car? No, because i think cars should sound like cars not washing machines...
		
Click to expand...

I'd get your washing machine checked out lol


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What's transport mode?1
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few consumer products have a transport mode, it’s where everything is fastened down, so nothing can move during transit and get damaged.

Your fridge or printer possibly has one.
All cars not just leccy ones also have a transport mode 😎


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## SaintHacker (Mar 22, 2021)

DanFST said:









Click to expand...

Nice try, but hybrids don't count. Particularly not ones with a 3.4l V8😉😂


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Quite a few consumer products have a transport mode, it’s where everything is fastened down, so nothing can move during transit and get damaged.

Your fridge or printer possibly has one.
All cars not just leccy ones also have a transport mode 😎
		
Click to expand...

Ah right I see 

Hopefully move it soon eh!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ah right I see

Hopefully move it soon eh!
		
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It’s a 5 minute job with the hand held rugged device, unfortunately it was broken

Couldn’t make it up 😂


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2021/03/...-powered-by-tidal-energy-switches-on-in-yell/

That's impressive, proper clean energy


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Quite a few consumer products have a transport mode, it’s where everything is fastened down, so nothing can move during transit and get damaged.

Your fridge or printer possibly has one.
All cars not just leccy ones also have a transport mode 😎
		
Click to expand...

The fridges one is sticky tape and pieces of polystyrene or cardboard  to hold the shelves in place, nothing more


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## Smiffy (Mar 22, 2021)

Cars normally have a couple of transit fuses in them


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Different way of working things. A lot of people lease. A hell of a lot of people

My lease car will cost me £13200 over 4 years then hand back and start again..

People also struggle to remember that yes some people will go and buy a second hand car for 10k but many will lease because they can't afford to lay down that 3k up front or whatever for a car ..but they can budget for £150 a month for a new car which they need now and not to save up for

Plus if they save for a 3k car less will go wrong in theory with the £150 a month lease

Many ways to skin a cat.

I always pay for my insurance up front but 90% of the people I know who aren't my family pay monthly even tho costs more
		
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Perhaps if more people weren't so accepting to be paying forever to have a car as you appear, the manufacturers wouldn't produce cars that don't even have an oil dipstick.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps if more people weren't so accepting to be paying forever to have a car as you appear, the manufacturers wouldn't produce cars that don't even have an oil dipstick.
		
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Why do you need an oil dipstick? Don't think any car I have has had one since my 55 plate Alfa GT.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Why do you need an oil dipstick? Don't think any car I have has had one since my 55 plate Alfa GT.
		
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Some people don't trust modern tech for anything .. be it auto wipers, lights, oil checking via a computer so a rechargeable car is going to be a massive change for so many


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Why do you need an oil dipstick? Don't think any car I have has had one since my 55 plate Alfa GT.
		
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So that your actual owner can if they want to, check the oil and more if they are so inclined, rather than never lifting the bonnet because "it's not mine it's a lease"


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So that your actual owner can if they want to, check the oil and more if they are so inclined, rather than never lifting the bonnet because "it's not mine it's a lease"
		
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But most have on board diagnostics that read the oil level, more accurately, than a dipstick does. The need for a dipstick is replaced by sensors.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			But most have on board diagnostics that read the oil level, more accurately, than a dipstick does. The need for a dipstick is replaced by sensors.
		
Click to expand...

But you need diagnostic equipment yourself, but how hard is it to pull a dipstick?
You should be popping the bonnet to check washer fluid every week anyway

Your BMW might have onboard diagnostics, but none of my vehicles have ever had that.....oil is checked by dipstick and the metal thing that goes in the engines tube


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## D-S (Mar 22, 2021)

So looking forward to the thread that will be coming on here is a few years time:-

*Would you buy a driverless car?*


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But you need diagnostic equipment yourself, but how hard is it to pull a dipstick?
You should be popping the bonnet to check washer fluid every week anyway

Your BMW might have onboard diagnostics, but none of my vehicles have ever had that.....oil is checked by dipstick and the metal thing that goes in the engines tube

Click to expand...

No you don't, most OBCs display the oil and other parameters in the OBC visual display. For example, in mine, you go in to Vehicle, Settings, Active Car and it tells you what the oil, brake and washer fluid levels are. I never need the bonnet on mine open. Unless I'm just admiring the shiny powerplant that is.


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But you need diagnostic equipment yourself, but how hard is it to pull a dipstick?
You should be popping the bonnet to check washer fluid every week anyway

Your BMW might have onboard diagnostics, but none of my vehicles have ever had that.....oil is checked by dipstick and the metal thing that goes in the engines tube

Click to expand...

Get with the times man, most cars are electronic technology nowadays 😀


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Get with the times man, most cars are electronic technology nowadays 😀
		
Click to expand...

My CLS has a dip stick. It makes me happy. I can check stuff.

My Z4 doesn't. It annoys me. Often the system says it needs oil, when it doesn't. There is a 2nd way of checking, electronically, but which one do you trust? When new, yes, everything works, but 15 years in? You are deluded if you think 15 year electronics are reliable.

So, scrap all cars at what, 6 years old? Green as. The best thing, the greenest, most environmentally friendly thing they can do? Make stuff last longer. 

Also, buying a 10 year old car. It's nice to pull the dip stick, it tells you so many things. Is the oil old, does it smell bad, does it taste bad (yes, you can taste oil), is there mayo in it (blown head gasket), is it low? So many things. People do buy older cars. It's not all about new leased stuff that in reality, you really can't afford.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2021)

Plenty of dipsticks around 👍😎😂


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			My CLS has a dip stick. It makes me happy. I can check stuff.

My Z4 doesn't. It annoys me. Often the system says it needs oil, when it doesn't. There is a 2nd way of checking, electronically, but which one do you trust? When new, yes, everything works, but 15 years in? You are deluded if you think 15 year electronics are reliable.

So, scrap all cars at what, 6 years old? Green as. The best thing, the greenest, most environmentally friendly thing they can do? Make stuff last longer.

Also, buying a 10 year old car. It's nice to pull the dip stick, it tells you so many things. Is the oil old, does it smell bad, does it taste bad (yes, you can taste oil), is there mayo in it (blown head gasket), is it low? So many things. People do buy older cars. It's not all about new leased stuff that in reality, you really can't afford.
		
Click to expand...

Technology has moved on, leased stuff you really can’t afford, get a grip, trying to be high and mighty, look into it before you spout this crap, I had a Touerag R line for 3 years for 16k, absolute bargain.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Technology has moved on, leased stuff you really can’t afford, get a grip, trying to be high and mighty, look into it before you spout this crap, I had a Touerag R line for 3 years for 16k, absolute bargain.
		
Click to expand...

Quick question, would you rather drive a Toureg, or live in a nicer house, and retire 10 years earlier? I am not high and mighty, but leasing cars to me is a total and utter waste of money, and yes, the tech moves on, but you are paying for it, and sadly, so is every one else, with built in obsolescence to make every one need new cars. Old ones should be repairable.


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## DanFST (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			but leasing cars to me is a total and utter waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

I am yet to lose on a car lease, even just on depreciation. 

When combined with my capital earning interest elsewhere it's a no brainer if you can get the right terms.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Quick question, would you rather drive a Toureg, or live in a nicer house, and retire 10 years earlier? I am not high and mighty, but leasing cars to me is a total and utter waste of money, and yes, the tech moves on, but you are paying for it, and sadly, so is every one else, with built in obsolescence to make every one need new cars. Old ones should be repairable.
		
Click to expand...

But that's by the by.. I could live in a 5 bedroom house instead of a 4 if I wanted to just got to move up the A1 and drive further to work.. but I like my area even with the same commute time as someone who lives in biggleswade at work and our houses worth the same but his bigger ..

So really could just save and move to same size house further out? If every goal in life is money


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I am yet to lose on a car lease, even just on depreciation.

When combined with my capital earning interest elsewhere it's a no brainer if you can get the right terms.
		
Click to expand...

My boss leased Honda's for years , always 2 year deal ... Over the course of 10 years he had paid similar to buying the car outright (bit less) but had driven 5 cars in that time without the added bills that age bring 

He only ever needed one service per car as handed back before second and never had to mot a car


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I am yet to lose on a car lease, even just on depreciation.

When combined with my capital earning interest elsewhere it's a no brainer if you can get the right terms.
		
Click to expand...

May be. I drive past so many houses with flash motors outside, on the never never, a constant drip of cash. Each to their own, but I am happy driving an older car, keeping it for a long time, and putting money into ISAs, pensions, property, to pay for later in life. A flash 80k car outside a 2 bed terrace is just a bit daft, to me. Some one else might see their motor as more important. 

But back to the dip stick post. Why not include a dip stick. It's cheap. It does a job. And when the lectures pack up, and they will, it might keep a car off the scrap heap. Is that not a good thing?


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My boss leased Honda's for years , always 2 year deal ... Over the course of 10 years he had paid similar to buying the car outright (bit less) but had driven 5 cars in that time without the added bills that age bring

He only ever needed one service per car as handed back before second and never had to mot a car
		
Click to expand...

Fine, what ever makes him happy. Similarly, Mrs Mogs has had a car allowance of 600 odd a month. She has had the same car for 18 years. That is a lot of cash in the bank. It pays for the odd bill, and a few MOTs.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			May be. I drive past so many houses with flash motors outside, on the never never, a constant drip of cash. Each to their own, but I am happy driving an older car, keeping it for a long time, and putting money into ISAs, pensions, property, to pay for later in life. A flash 80k car outside a 2 bed terrace is just a bit daft, to me. Some one else might see their motor as more important.

But back to the dip stick post. Why not include a dip stick. It's cheap. It does a job. And when the lectures pack up, and they will, it might keep a car off the scrap heap. Is that not a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

How do you know it's not their second homes? Or their not saving on the side..

Some people just happy with what they got 

Mother in law has a 2 bed semi .. they could afford much bigger but they happy with what they got .. spend their cash elsewhere


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Fine, what ever makes him happy. Similarly, Mrs Mogs has had a car allowance of 600 odd a month. She has had the same car for 18 years. That is a lot of cash in the bank. It pays for the odd bill, and a few MOTs.
		
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Then you have no excuse not buying a telsa model s outright lol don't be tight you will still have change


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Then you have no excuse not buying a telsa model s outright lol don't be tight you will still have change
		
Click to expand...

Why would I want to? It's not a car either of us want to drive?


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			No you don't, most OBCs display the oil and other parameters in the OBC visual display. For example, in mine, you go in to Vehicle, Settings, Active Car and it tells you what the oil, brake and washer fluid levels are. I never need the bonnet on mine open. Unless I'm just admiring the shiny powerplant that is.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but your BMW isn't the same as other cars.
My 3 yr old Mazda has a dipstick
My wifes 2 yr old Yaris hybrid has a dipstick.
My 3 yr old VW Transporter van ...has a disptick .....and one under the bonnet too


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			How do you know it's not their second homes? Or their not saving on the side..

Some people just happy with what they got

Mother in law has a 2 bed semi .. they could afford much bigger but they happy with what they got .. spend their cash elsewhere
		
Click to expand...

Nothing appreciates like property.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Nothing appreciates like property.
		
Click to expand...

And the area's you drive by those 2 bedroom Terrance's are properly worth more than a 5 bed house in other parts of the country


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/22/vw-brand-joins-audi-in-ending-combustion-engine-development/


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sorry, but your BMW isn't the same as other cars.
My 3 yr old Mazda has a dipstick
My wifes 2 yr old Yaris hybrid has a dipstick.
My 3 yr old VW Transporter van ...has a disptick .....and one under the bonnet too

Click to expand...

My mates Corsa had a digital oil check, his Mrs Sorrento has one. 
Even the MiLs Kuga has one. The FiLs BMW had one installed when he started driving it...

Most new models will do away with it. Just like they have done with carbs that you could see and touch, points and distributors, airflow dynamos. 
All of these things were moved to EMU control over time. 

Dipsticks were seldom actually accurate anyway (pressure low, on a slight slope, too cold/hot).


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			And the area's you drive by those 2 bedroom Terrance's are properly worth more than a 5 bed house in other parts of the country
		
Click to expand...

That still doesn't really make sense. Most of the time your car is sat outside, and you are in your house, or at work.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			My mates Corsa had a digital oil check, his Mrs Sorrento has one.
Even the MiLs Kuga has one. The FiLs BMW had one installed when he started driving it...

Most new models will do away with it. Just like they have done with carbs that you could see and touch, points and distributors, airflow dynamos.
All of these things were moved to EMU control over time.

Dipsticks were seldom actually accurate anyway (pressure low, on a slight slope, too cold/hot).
		
Click to expand...

It is just manufacturers building in planned obsolescence so you have to buy a new one. There is no reason not to have one.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			That still doesn't really make sense. Most of the time your car is sat outside, and you are in your house, or at work.
		
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Why don't you drive a ford then? If that's the theory?


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Quick question, would you rather drive a Toureg, or live in a nicer house, and retire 10 years earlier? I am not high and mighty, but leasing cars to me is a total and utter waste of money, and yes, the tech moves on, but you are paying for it, and sadly, so is every one else, with built in obsolescence to make every one need new cars. Old ones should be repairable.
		
Click to expand...

Without sounding like an ass, i live in a decent 4 bedroom house and 55 is still the target for retirement, leasing is a great option for the right deal  😀


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It is just manufacturers building in planned obsolescence so you have to buy a new one. There is no reason not to have one.
		
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I can think of a few. Inaccuracy being prime. 
There is no evidence that OPS are built to fail. Thats tinfoil hat stuff. 

You might as well bin your computer controlled turbos and go back to good old chain pulley suoerchargers. Manufacturers only computerised the sensor array so it would fail and you need a new one... 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Without sounding like an ass, i live in a decent 4 bedroom house and 55 is still the target for retirement, leasing is a great option for the right deal  😀
		
Click to expand...

I will sound like an arse .. lol I live In a decent 4 bed in a London borough and if I retire past 60 I'll be over the lifetime allowance 🤔

So not worth putting more and more away!

That's with avcs and overpaying mortgage plus saving a fair wack

Think lease is affordable


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## DanFST (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			My mates Corsa had a digital oil check, his Mrs Sorrento has one.
Even the MiLs Kuga has one. The FiLs BMW had one installed when he started driving it...

Most new models will do away with it. Just like they have done with carbs that you could see and touch, points and distributors, airflow dynamos.
All of these things were moved to EMU control over time.

Dipsticks were seldom actually accurate anyway (pressure low, on a slight slope, too cold/hot).
		
Click to expand...

What happens if your sensor or harness fails? How do I see the condition of the oil without draining the sump?


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

If you only drive new cars, say, under 3 years old, then you have no idea how electronic systems fail. As an example, my CLS, when started, sometimes the Info screen is on, some times not. Sometimes it turns traffic info on, sometimes it is off, where I left it. Nothing major, granted, but little glitches.
A golf pal of mine drives range rovers. New ones mainly. There is always a warning light on on the dash. Always. Same for another friend with a Jag F type. Dealers fix it, and another one comes on.
10 years old, these will be scrap.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			If you only drive new cars, say, under 3 years old, then you have no idea how electronic systems fail. As an example, my CLS, when started, sometimes the Info screen is on, some times not. Sometimes it turns traffic info on, sometimes it is off, where I left it. Nothing major, granted, but little glitches.
A golf pal of mine drives range rovers. New ones mainly. There is always a warning light on on the dash. Always. Same for another friend with a Jag F type. Dealers fix it, and another one comes on.
10 years old, these will be scrap.
		
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I'm an ex mechanic so I think I have an idea.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			If you only drive new cars, say, under 3 years old, then you have no idea how electronic systems fail. As an example, my CLS, when started, sometimes the Info screen is on, some times not. Sometimes it turns traffic info on, sometimes it is off, where I left it. Nothing major, granted, but little glitches.
A golf pal of mine drives range rovers. New ones mainly. There is always a warning light on on the dash. Always. Same for another friend with a Jag F type. Dealers fix it, and another one comes on.
10 years old, these will be scrap.
		
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Sorry but that's bull. There is no actual evidence it's only a gut feeling. You may be correct but without evidence your just hypothesising


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I will sound like an arse .. lol I live In a decent 4 bed in a London borough and if I retire past 60 I'll be over the lifetime allowance 🤔

So not worth putting more and more away!

That's with avcs and overpaying mortgage plus saving a fair wack

Think lease is affordable
		
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It works for you, sure, but sorry, for a whopping amount of people their life style is credit cards, leasing, and debt. Just look at the average debt in this country, and tell me that's a good thing.
You are lucky, you have a good job with a good pension. Many don't, in fact, most don't.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			What happens if your sensor or harness fails? How do I see the condition of the oil without draining the sump?
		
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Depends on why you would need to see the condition. A wiring/sensor fault would throw an error. So it's likely you'd get that checked before you start worrying about the state of the oil. 

Of course, you can always do the mayonnaise test with the filler cap if you suspect something sinister.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I'm an ex mechanic so I think I have an idea.
		
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Can I bring my CLS up to you and you can fix the traffic announcement? It's driving me nuts.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It works for you, sure, but sorry, for a whopping amount of people their life style is credit cards, leasing, and debt. Just look at the average debt in this country, and tell me that's a good thing.
You are lucky, you have a good job with a good pension. Many don't, in fact, most don't.
		
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The majority of the country is in debt, and the younger generation debt is far greater and always will be with the price of houses 

I'd wager my mortgage would make many cry for the amount owed just because of what you need to borrow now compared to then


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Can I bring my CLS up to you and you can fix the traffic announcement? It's driving me nuts.
		
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I actually have Merc OBD2 software from when I had my C43. Is it the TA intermittency issue?


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I actually have Merc OBD2 software from when I had my C43. Is it the TA intermittency issue?
		
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Yes.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Yes.
		
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Have you had a recent over-air software update?
I had the same problem but was fixed after a MecedesMe firmware update.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Have you had a recent over-air software update?
I had the same problem but was fixed after a MecedesMe firmware update.
		
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No idea. It hasn't been near a dealership in ages. Last time I looked at Mercedesme, it was a shocker, and no one on the web  had much to say about it that was good.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			No idea. It hasn't been near a dealership in ages. Last time I looked at Mercedesme, it was a shocker, and no one on the web  had much to say about it that was good.
		
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Yeah, I have to admit it's not as good as the BMW Connected service. It seems to be the source of many of the connected drive issues rather than any of the ECM modules. It's all the firmware in the actual console. I will speak to my old garage mate tomorrow, he's with Merc commercial vehicles now, see if he knows any tricks.


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## richart (Mar 22, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Can I bring my CLS up to you and you can fix the traffic announcement? It's driving me nuts.
		
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Now I know where my car caught it from. 😢 It drives me mad, and I am wearing out the cancel button on my CD player. 😬


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 23, 2021)

richart said:



			Now I know where my car caught it from. 😢 It drives me mad, and I am wearing out the cancel button on my *8 Track *player. 😬
		
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Fixed that for ya Rich 👍😎😂


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The majority of the country is in debt,
		
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## Whereditgo (Mar 23, 2021)

I frequently drive 400 + miles in a day often with a twin axle trailer fully laden one way and empty on the return, so currently the hybrid or electric vehicles just won't fit the requirements.

I still believe that in the future the running costs will rise dramatically to replace the lost revenue from fuel tax.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I frequently drive 400 + miles in a day often with a twin axle trailer fully laden one way and empty on the return, so currently the hybrid or electric vehicles just won't fit the requirements.

I still believe that in the future the running costs will rise dramatically to replace the lost revenue from fuel tax.
		
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They will have to do a pay per mile road service or something (which will hit petrol twice).
I can see that happening due to them wanting to tax petrol off the road plus make up for electric low cost 

I can't see them dramatically raising electric costs as it would unfairly punish people who don't even own a car if they go from 15p for a kw to 30pA


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## Whereditgo (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I can't see them dramatically raising electric costs as it would unfairly punish people who don't even own a car if they go from 15p for a kw to 30pA
		
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I don't think it would be much of a challenge to devise a system to ensure that a different tariff is used to charge a car than that being used for a domestic dwelling.


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## Beedee (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They will have to do a pay per mile road service or something (which will hit petrol twice).
I can see that happening due to them wanting to tax petrol off the road plus make up for electric low cost

I can't see them dramatically raising electric costs as it would unfairly punish people who don't even own a car if they go from 15p for a kw to 30pA
		
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I think it'll be a pay per mile charge linked to a telematics solution.  Drive at peak times - pay extra.  Drive on motorways - pay extra.  Drive on residential roads - pay extra.   

And will give the extra "benefits" of tracking the population quite well, and handing out instant fines.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I don't think it would be much of a challenge to devise a system to ensure that a different tariff is used to charge a car than that being used for a domestic dwelling.
		
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Again disagree. What you going to do for every excisting user? You can't tell ATM what the usage is for you would have to have another smart meter installed at their house with one for normal usage and one for car 

And I doubt they could force that on people so if you already have a charging set up you just pay lower?

The pay as you use system on the roads will be the way forward as it's been talked about a few times by government ..


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## Whereditgo (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Again disagree. What you going to do for every excisting user? You can't tell ATM what the usage is for you would have to have another smart meter installed at their house with one for normal usage and one for car

And I doubt they could force that on people so if you already have a charging set up you just pay lower?

The pay as you use system on the roads will be the way forward as it's been talked about a few times by government ..
		
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A seperate meter for car charging would be very simple and the costs insignificant versus the amount of fuel revenue. But no matter what system is implemented, the point I am making is that the incredibly cheap running costs currently (pardon the pun) being enjoyed will not last once ICE vehicles begin to be replaced in significant numbers.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2021)

You could just get your mileage checked every year and you get a bill for 2p per mile or whatever.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			A seperate meter for car charging would be very simple and the costs insignificant versus the amount of fuel revenue. But no matter what system is implemented, the point I am making is that the incredibly cheap running costs currently (pardon the pun) being enjoyed will not last once ICE vehicles begin to be replaced in significant numbers.
		
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Sorry but it's not very simple. The gov has spent how much making everyone switch to smart meters do you really think they are going to pay for another switch?

And all those cars already out there wouldn't have to replace their meters as would be no proof of it ...

Yes you could say all future installs need a separate meter

But a pay per mile service would be so simple. Which is basically what petrol is .. more you drive more you pay.

I agree the cheap evening tarifs will go but even still the costs to run compared are cheap as chips .. my £16 would be £40 but would have been hundreds in petrol


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## Whereditgo (Mar 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You could just get your mileage checked every year and you get a bill for 2p per mile or whatever.
		
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Suspect it would be much higher than that Bob, more like 7 or 8p per mile. I think the tax on fuel is around 60%?


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Suspect it would be much higher than that Bob, more like 7 or 8p per mile. I think the tax on fuel is around 60%?
		
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That's why I said ''or whatever''
And I was talking about road tax


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## larmen (Mar 23, 2021)

They will want to tax foreigners as well as domestic drivers for using the UK roads, so taxing home electricity will not be the way.

Also, for those of us who drive petrol or diesel, whatever they add to the road usage for those EVs, that charge will likely be additional to us as well.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 23, 2021)

They will just abolish the free road fund license currently enjoyed by EV's, and rightly so.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			They will just abolish the free road fund license currently enjoyed by EV's, and rightly so.
		
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Lol that's small fry.. what £150 a year? How much does fuel duty bring in ...


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2021)

if we eventually end up paying per mile to use the roads can we then tax cyclists?


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Lol that's small fry.. what £150 a year? How much does fuel duty bring in ...
		
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If you think they aren't going to blanket increase RFL to make up for the shortfall in tax from fuel.....


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			if we eventually end up paying per mile to use the roads can we then tax cyclists?
		
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They do produce CO2 emissions.....


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## spongebob59 (Mar 23, 2021)

Anyone fancy a bike ?

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/triumph-te-1-electric-motorbike/


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2021)

Imurg said:



			They do produce CO2 emissions.....

Click to expand...

Yeah it’s the smoke coming from my ears every time I see one!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If you think they aren't going to blanket increase RFL to make up for the shortfall in tax from fuel.....
		
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They will be it will be small fry compared and nobody is going to bulk at the road tax cost .. it will be milage cost that will make people want to cut down


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## USER1999 (Mar 23, 2021)

You could potentially use GPS to charge by the mile, either using the car system, or by smart phone app. May be add an after market plug in device, illegal to remove, a black box type device.


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## larmen (Mar 23, 2021)

Many years ago we had a guy in the running club who worked for the DFT. He had one of those small Sony Vaio laptops he liked to show off (if someone can time it based on that), and he sat in the corner working on a presentation for road charging, I think it was for motorways based on number plate recognition.
Obviously, that has never been rolled out and he works for someone else for about 6 to 8 years now, but the government was surely thinking about charging for road use.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Anyone fancy a bike ?

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/triumph-te-1-electric-motorbike/

Click to expand...

From the article;

"To do that we have to understand the customer, how they use their bikes and what they’d want from their bikes. For electric bikes to grow, it has to be a natural choice for someone because the bike is desirable in its own right."  And that will be the crux of the problem they face.  There's an old adage that 4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul and I'm not sure how much soul an electric motorcycle will have compared with a petrol engined version.


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## D-S (Mar 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			From the article;

"To do that we have to understand the customer, how they use their bikes and what they’d want from their bikes. For electric bikes to grow, it has to be a natural choice for someone because the bike is desirable in its own right."  And that will be the crux of the problem they face.  There's an old adage that 4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul and I'm not sure how much soul an electric motorcycle will have compared with a petrol engined version.
		
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I‘m sure if there had been su forums at the time people would have been saying exactly the same thing in a horse versus motorised bicycle thread.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 23, 2021)

When electricity demand goes up, do we all genuinely believe, in our capitalist society, that the price will also go up? 

It might be comparatively much cheaper now, but as demand rises, prices will inevitably go up. 

If its not the government that fleeces us, it will be the leccy companies.


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## USER1999 (Mar 24, 2021)

D-S said:



			I‘m sure if there had been su forums at the time people would have been saying exactly the same thing in a horse versus motorised bicycle thread.
		
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I am sure EV bikes will sell to commuters, in the same way EV cars will.

I don't think anyone will buy an EV for fun. Yes, the initial excelleration is fun for a few days, but after that, they are totally characterless. One of the reasons Ferrari have said they do not want to build a pure EV.


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## Beedee (Mar 24, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			When electricity demand goes up, do we all genuinely believe, in our capitalist society, that the price will also go up?

It might be comparatively much cheaper now, but as demand rises, prices will inevitably go up.

If its not the government that fleeces us, it will be the leccy companies.
		
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The tax on petrol and diesel raises approx £28 billion a year.  Almost 80p of every litre of fuel is fuel duty or VAT.  The Treasury isn't going to give that up without a fight.  

I agree the leccy companies will exploit the situation, but the Treasury will need to replace that £28 billion somehow.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 24, 2021)

Beedee said:



			The tax on petrol and diesel raises approx £28 billion a year.  Almost 80p of every litre of fuel is fuel duty or VAT.  The Treasury isn't going to give that up without a fight. 

I agree the leccy companies will exploit the situation, but the Treasury will need to replace that £28 billion somehow.
		
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Totally agreed so I see it being a double whammy of increased fuel (electric) costs coupled with vehicle tax being either increased across the board or tiered by either vehicle value (or possibly battery capacity (akin to the old engine size bands) or charge time). 

Either way, I seriously doubt that EV ownership will be the cheap(ish) utopia that it is now whilst its a mixed market with consumer choice still attached.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Totally agreed so I see it being a double whammy of increased fuel (electric) costs coupled with vehicle tax being either increased across the board or tiered by either vehicle value (or possibly battery capacity (akin to the old engine size bands) or charge time).

Either way, I seriously doubt that EV ownership will be the cheap(ish) utopia that it is now whilst its a mixed market with consumer choice still attached.
		
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The cheap utopia is just to get people into them


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## GreiginFife (Mar 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The cheap utopia is just to get people into them
		
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Then jack up the price... great model.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Then jack up the price... great model.
		
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Works tho lol


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## D-S (Mar 24, 2021)

In due course there will be areas on the edge of towns where driverless cars are stored waiting to be summoned by people in need of transport. No need to own a lot of plastic/metal that is not in use for the vast majority of the time when there is always one a tap away on your device. No need for garages, on street parking etc. etc. 
10 years away maybe 15? Perhaps the era of EV ownership maybe quite a short one.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2021)

D-S said:



			In due course there will be areas on the edge of towns where driverless cars are stored waiting to be summoned by people in need of transport. No need to own a lot of plastic/metal that is not in use for the vast majority of the time when there is always one a tap away on your device. No need for garages, on street parking etc. etc.
10 years away maybe 15? Perhaps the era of EV ownership maybe quite a short one.
		
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These areas are going have to be pretty large..
Not everyone is going to need a car at the same time all day but at peak times there's a lot of vehicles on the roads
And everyone is going to need to have access to one...thats an awful lot of driverless cars and some mahoosive car parks.


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## D-S (Mar 24, 2021)

Imurg said:



			These areas are going have to be pretty large..
Not everyone is going to need a car at the same time all day but at peak times there's a lot of vehicles on the roads
And everyone is going to need to have access to one...thats an awful lot of driverless cars and some mahoosive car parks.
		
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Less cars than we have today as they can be in use for far more hours ina day than the relatively small % of the time that all our individual cars are actually used - they can be in use 24/7 except for charging time which by then should be short. There is never a time now when every car is on the road at the same time. Also car parks would contain far more cars as the cars can be parked very, very close together as no one needs to get in or out and you don’t need to access every single one at any one time as you do today.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2021)

D-S said:



			Less cars than we have today as they can be in use for far more hours ina day than the relatively small % of the time that all our individual cars are actually used - they can be in use 24/7 except for charging time which by then should be short. There is never a time now when every car is on the road at the same time. Also car parks would contain far more cars as the cars can be parked very, very close together as no one needs to get in or out and you don’t need to access every single one at any one time as you do today.
		
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Granted, fewer than we have now but you're still going to need a lot of parking with charging points.
The beauty of what we have now is you can decide to go somewhere at the drop of a hat.
If you have to wait for a "taxi" every time it could get dull quite quickly.
And I think we've got a lot more than 10 or 15 years before we need to worry about it.


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## D-S (Mar 24, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Granted, fewer than we have now but you're still going to need a lot of parking with charging points.
The beauty of what we have now is you can decide to go somewhere at the drop of a hat.
If you have to wait for a "taxi" every time it could get dull quite quickly.
And I think we've got a lot more than 10 or 15 years before we need to worry about it.
		
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You could well be right but they are out on the roads in some countries already and 15 years is a long time in Tech.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 25, 2021)

Driverless cars are still a long way off. The safety requirements are enormous and the mileage to prove you have a safe car is intergalactic... we are are talking hundreds of thousands. Waymo has started so have google but they have had a few hiccups and that means they have to do more miles..
So you will see a ban on ICE taxis and then fleets of electric cars being owned that have multiple drivers. It will be like Uber but a car is provided. 
I don’t know how safe people will be but I think there should be some regulations attached. 
The plans are over night parking will be used for charging these fleets etc ... so any establishment with large parking facilities would be equipped and used.
In the end low cost electric will not exist, unless you generate it yourself


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2021)

https://insideevs.com/news/496549/volkswagen-group-partner-bp-ultrafast-charging/

BP now. Good team up making it seemless 

Shell are ramping up there's 

My father in law has gone back to maintaining petrol pumps and now his job is to install charge points aswell 

There going to be at every branded petrol station at this rate


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://insideevs.com/news/496549/volkswagen-group-partner-bp-ultrafast-charging/

BP now. Good team up making it seemless

Shell are ramping up there's

My father in law has gone back to maintaining petrol pumps and now his job is to install charge points aswell

There going to be at every branded petrol station at this rate
		
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That's great but still a pain in the arris for people that don't have off road parking. Would you want to drive to a petrol station and hang around for an hour or so while you recharge?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

drive4show said:



			That's great but still a pain in the arris for people that don't have off road parking. Would you want to drive to a petrol station and hang around for an hour or so while you recharge?
		
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The speeds they have quoted will have a 100kw battery charged in 30 mins 

Can see 50kw batterys being a norm so 15 mins 

It's what 5 mins now?

So extra 10 mins 

What is always overlooked is the world is changing. Humans might actually have to make a change to their habits rather than have tech just slot in..


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Would you want to drive to a petrol station and hang around for an hour or so while you recharge?
		
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No, you would plug in at Asda or Tesco or Lidls and fill er up while you're shopping.
Or at the gym, golf club, multi storey car park, restaurant, bar, cinema etc.
I know they're not all available yet but it wont be long.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No, you would plug in at Asda or Tesco or Lidls and fill er up while you're shopping.
Or at the gym, golf club, multi storey car park, restaurant, bar, cinema etc.
I know they're not all available yet but it wont be long.
		
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My golf club has them but they went too early and got type 1 before type 2 became the standard lol 

The Tesco one I would use a lot more if not for covid . I haven't done a normal weekly shop since covid all click and collect 

My local Tesco's have 7kw charges free to use so an hour in Tesco would top me up nicely


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My local Tesco's have 7kw charges free to use *so an hour* in Tesco would *top me up* nicely
		
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And that's the problem for people that don't have off street parking. If I want to 'top up' my car it takes all of 2 minutes.
Yes it will change but how long will it take? EVs have been around for about 10 years now and the situation is still far from ideal.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

drive4show said:



			And that's the problem for people that don't have off street parking. If I want to 'top up' my car it takes all of 2 minutes.
Yes it will change but how long will it take? EVs have been around for about 10 years now and the situation is still far from ideal.
		
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They have come up with converting lamp posts into charge points 

Plenty of solutions happening 

The ban won't take affect for 9 more years . Then won't filter down really for another 10 so got least 19 more years 

If people don't have off street parking I'm sure a solution will be in by 19 years time no?


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## D-S (Mar 26, 2021)

If i didn’t have off street parking I wouldn’t consider buying an EV as I think a lot of the ‘range anxiety’ issue is lessened for me by the fact that every morning you start with ‘a full tank’. Refuelling elsewhere (which seems a bit of a pain) would only be necessary on longish journeys.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2021)

D-S said:



			If i didn’t have off street parking I wouldn’t consider buying an EV as I think a lot of the ‘range anxiety’ issue is lessened for me by the fact that every morning you start with ‘a full tank’. Refuelling elsewhere (which seems a bit of a pain) would only be necessary on longish journeys.
		
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That is exactly it, the reality is a small battery range of 130-150miles would be right. They will also charge quicker and possibly be more efficient due to reduced weight. The cost will be less.. currently I am thinking a small electric daily and then a huge V8 for those long journeys 😉 (of cause this won’t happen because I am married and any fun will be frowned upon! Or some dumb question about having 2 cars )


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That is exactly it, the reality is a small battery range of 130-150miles would be right. They will also charge quicker and possibly be more efficient due to reduced weight. The cost will be less.. currently I am thinking a small electric daily and then a huge V8 for those long journeys 😉 (of cause this won’t happen because I am married and any fun will be frowned upon! Or some dumb question about having 2 cars )
		
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I see 50kw being the nom for battery's 

I've got that in mine and all the ones coming out from that seem 50kw now. Can get 200 miles but more realistic 170

Lower Weight like you say 

If they get 150kw chargers on board built in that's recharged in 20 mins 

My Corsa has a 100kw charger on board .. 

Can recharge from 20-80% in 25mins 

That's 100 miles added in 25 mins


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## AAC (Mar 26, 2021)

Electric vehicles - Would I buy one ? - NO never.

A client of mine has a Tesla, it was the most hideous driving experience of my life, after a 10 mile round trip I felt so ill I had to go home from work early.  I thought it might have been a one off but at Christmas my daughter hired an electric taxi to take us on a sightseeing trip around london, I endured the 4 hours for her sake but I felt really ill and just wanted to jump out and catch a train home


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

AAC said:



			Electric vehicles - Would I buy one ? - NO never.

A client of mine has a Tesla, it was the most hideous driving experience of my life, after a 10 mile round trip I felt so ill I had to go home from work early.  I thought it might have been a one off but at Christmas my daughter hired an electric taxi to take us on a sightseeing trip around london, I endured the 4 hours for her sake but I felt really ill and just wanted to jump out and catch a train home
		
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Isn't that how they are driven? My car feels exactly same as any other car.


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## larmen (Mar 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No, you would plug in at Asda or Tesco or Lidls and fill er up while you're shopping.
Or at the gym, golf club, multi storey car park, restaurant, bar, cinema etc.
I know they're not all available yet but it wont be long.
		
Click to expand...

I thought about golf clubs, but I don’t think it’s workable.

We all claim to play our rounds in under 3 hours, but if you think about it, you roll up, get drawn in a group, wait to tee off, play your 3 hour round in just over 4 hours, wait for the last groups to come in, having a lunch an drink; a charger would be blocked for 5+ hours of which the car sits idle and not charging for a chunk of it.

Supermarkets are going to be it. 40 minutes or so turn around. Maybe even subsidised a little to get the punter into their shops.


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			I thought about golf clubs, but I don’t think it’s workable.

We all claim to play our rounds in under 3 hours, but if you think about it, you roll up, get drawn in a group, wait to tee off, play your 3 hour round in just over 4 hours, wait for the last groups to come in, having a lunch an drink; a charger would be blocked for 5+ hours of which the car sits idle and not charging for a chunk of it.

Supermarkets are going to be it. 40 minutes or so turn around. Maybe even subsidised a little to get the punter into their shops.
		
Click to expand...

You could move your car before going for a drink etc to another space


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## RichA (Mar 26, 2021)

AAC said:



			Electric vehicles - Would I buy one ? - NO never.

A client of mine has a Tesla, it was the most hideous driving experience of my life, after a 10 mile round trip I felt so ill I had to go home from work early.  I thought it might have been a one off but at Christmas my daughter hired an electric taxi to take us on a sightseeing trip around london, I endured the 4 hours for her sake but I felt really ill and just wanted to jump out and catch a train home
		
Click to expand...

Likewise. Been in my brother-in-law's Tesla once. The ride made me want to vomit. It reminded me of going up 50 floors in the high speed lift at Canary Wharf.
It costs him nothing to run it though - ever since he spent £30000 on solar panels and some kind of giant capacitor in his garage.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			Likewise. Been in my brother-in-law's Tesla once. The ride made me want to vomit. It reminded me of going up 50 floors in the high speed lift at Canary Wharf.
It costs him nothing to run it though - ever since he spent £30000 on solar panels and some kind of giant capacitor in his garage.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't this be the same of any car that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds? Just stands out more because of the name 

I mean your average car with 8 seconds 0-60 is hardly going to make anyone feel sick


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## RichA (Mar 26, 2021)

Had to spend the day driving a Prius hybrid yesterday, once I'd finally found the parking brake hidden behind my left foot. 
Expected to hate it, ended up quite liking the electric motor at low speeds kicking into the petrol engine once it got moving. Nothing to do with the power source, but the seats are really comfortable. 8 hours of driving with none of the usual discomfort. I can see why minicab drivers like them.


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## RichA (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wouldn't this be the same of any car that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds? Just stands out more because of the name

I mean your average car with 8 seconds 0-60 is hardly going to make anyone feel sick
		
Click to expand...

True enough, but I think the lack of gearing did me. Experience tells you there's a gear change coming, even in an auto, but it just keeps going - that's how I remember it anyway. And the noise - like a muffled dentist's drill.


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wouldn't this be the same of any car that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds? Just stands out more because of the name

I mean your average car with 8 seconds 0-60 is hardly going to make anyone feel sick
		
Click to expand...

I always think if you are driving, you should be mindful of any passengers. Hammering the accelerator or brakes is uncomfortable at best. The time to explore the cars capabilities are when you are on your own.


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## AAC (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wouldn't this be the same of any car that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds? Just stands out more because of the name

I mean your average car with 8 seconds 0-60 is hardly going to make anyone feel sick
		
Click to expand...

The taxi made me feel just as ill !!  

In the early seventies I was taken for a spin in a race prepared GT40, the acceleration was something else but it never made me feel ill


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## larmen (Mar 26, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I always think if you are driving, you should be mindful of any passengers. Hammering the accelerator or brakes is uncomfortable at best. The time to explore the cars capabilities are when you are on your own.
		
Click to expand...

Will driving lessons and test change? Getting drivers to not only drive safely but also economic? Regen and all that?


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			It costs him nothing to run it though - ever since he spent £30000 on solar panels and some kind of giant capacitor in his garage.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...2CPvmN1tC3ecqP9Tdt-_3Bssl7wNNwYQaAsQOEALw_wcB


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I always think if you are driving, you should be mindful of any passengers. Hammering the accelerator or brakes is uncomfortable at best. The time to explore the cars capabilities are when you are on your own.
		
Click to expand...

Very much so! Passengers should come first 

I remember growing up being travel sick in every car. Had to take carrier bags everywhere until we went to America and had a car with air con.. parents got an air con car not long after wasn't sick in one of them!

Even now if somebody turns their air con off I ask can I have it on as I start to feel a bit off 

Doesn't affect me when driving tho


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2021)

Just had a look at the prices .. still a little too high for me to commit at the moment. I think the Peugeot 2008might be okay just need to check the internal dimensions as it’s replacing the Fiesta which is currently the family car. 
I really hate spending money on cars the Tesla’s are expensive and a bit disappointing.. think I have fallen out love with cars


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Just had a look at the prices .. still a little too high for me to commit at the moment. I think the Peugeot 2008might be okay just need to check the internal dimensions as it’s replacing the Fiesta which is currently the family car. 
I really hate spending money on cars the Tesla’s are expensive and a bit disappointing.. think I have fallen out love with cars
		
Click to expand...

How tall are you? Do you need much rear leg room?

I'm 6foot but have seat all way back so one side has zero room (but that's because I drive very far back for my height)

I have the Corsa which is 208s cousin 

I can get 3 kids in there tho 

And boot fits clubs no driver


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			How tall are you? Do you need much rear leg room?

I'm 6foot but have seat all way back so one side has zero room (but that's because I drive very far back for my height)

I have the Corsa which is 208s cousin

I can get 3 kids in there tho

And boot fits clubs no driver
		
Click to expand...

Too small for a growing lad, so just looking for a bigger family car.
Golf clubs go in the front seat of my MX5. We would use this as our school run and family days out / holidays.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Too small for a growing lad, so just looking for a bigger family car.
Golf clubs go in the front seat of my MX5. We would use this as our school run and family days out / holidays.
		
Click to expand...

Check out 2008e


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Too small for a growing lad, so just looking for a bigger family car.
Golf clubs go in the front seat of my MX5. We would use this as our school run and family days out / holidays.
		
Click to expand...

I would miss having a convertible.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Check out 2008e
		
Click to expand...

Yes I was looking at that, I need to see about the back seat. The boot space for 3 people are s okay. 
Next option is the rwd mustang.. but might be a bit rich


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes I was looking at that, I need to see about the back seat. The boot space for 3 people are s okay. 
Next option is the rwd mustang.. but might be a bit rich
		
Click to expand...

The leaf itself is very good size

Best ones 

Kia e niro 
Hyuandi Kona


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The leaf itself is very good size

Best ones

Kia e niro
Hyuandi Kona
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but like the Tesla bit common


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## DannyOT (Apr 13, 2021)

Well we've just ordered a vauxhall corsa e elite nav. 

I wasn't expecting to like it as much as I did but coming from a 12 year old, big standard fiesta, it was chalk and cheese. 

Ended up buying and it was a no brainer. It would have been more per month to lease with no option to keep it. I plan on keeping this at least until the battery warranty runs out in 8 years. 

I was pleasantly surprised at the performance and just how smooth it felt. For our needs, an Ev is perfect. I was generally very impressed with the quality of the corsa, I've never really liked vauxhalls but this felt like a big step up from the previous corsa that we had as a hire car a few years ago.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			Well we've just ordered a vauxhall corsa e elite nav. 

I wasn't expecting to like it as much as I did but coming from a 12 year old, big standard fiesta, it was chalk and cheese. 

Ended up buying and it was a no brainer. It would have been more per month to lease with no option to keep it. I plan on keeping this at least until the battery warranty runs out in 8 years. 

I was pleasantly surprised at the performance and just how smooth it felt. For our needs, an Ev is perfect. I was generally very impressed with the quality of the corsa, I've never really liked vauxhalls but this felt like a big step up from the previous corsa that we had as a hire car a few years ago.
		
Click to expand...

It's a lovely car and drive 

The app is a bit ropey but improving 

What charge point have you got?


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## DannyOT (Apr 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a lovely car and drive

The app is a bit ropey but improving

What charge point have you got?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure! They are supposed to call me in the morning to arrange fitting. I completely forgot to ask at the dealers and I couldn't find anything online about which charger they supply. 

Which charger did you get? I was expecting a pod point for some reason. I'm lucky that I've got 2 tescos within a mile, both with free 7kw chargers that I never see in use. I plan on making good use of them at first. 

Does beating sports cars to 30mph ever get old?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			I'm not sure! They are supposed to call me in the morning to arrange fitting. I completely forgot to ask at the dealers and I couldn't find anything online about which charger they supply. 

Which charger did you get? I was expecting a pod point for some reason. I'm lucky that I've got 2 tescos within a mile, both with free 7kw chargers that I never see in use. I plan on making good use of them at first. 

Does beating sports cars to 30mph ever get old?
		
Click to expand...

Lol 🤣 I've got bored of it 

Yeah Tesco is decent Ive sat in my car for 30 mins in Tesco a few times as I can answer and catch up on emails away from the kids without the wife moaning lol 

Podpoint I have , very good now it's updated

Their good cars let down by their app a bit but once they fix their server issue .. whey


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 13, 2021)

I've gone right off the idea of buying an EV as it seems they don't get valeted when serviced 😉


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## pauljames87 (Apr 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I've gone right off the idea of buying an EV as it seems they don't get valeted when serviced 😉
		
Click to expand...

Ah you wouldn't have a vauxhall one tho. Those cheap tacky buggers 

I'm sure your telsa would get done


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## DannyOT (Apr 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Lol 🤣 I've got bored of it

Yeah Tesco is decent Ive sat in my car for 30 mins in Tesco a few times as I can answer and catch up on emails away from the kids without the wife moaning lol

Podpoint I have , very good now it's updated

Their good cars let down by their app a bit but once they fix their server issue .. whey
		
Click to expand...

The sales guy who came out on the test drive was clearly  a boy racer, I was trying to test out all the multimedia stuff and he just wanted to take me down the duel carriageway so I could floor it 😁

Is the pod point the one with the cable attached or do you have to keep plugging in the one that comes with the car? 

The app looked decent from what he showed me. Is it server issues? I just want to be able to set the climate control when I'm in the house and set charging times.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			The sales guy who came out on the test drive was clearly  a boy racer, I was trying to test out all the multimedia stuff and he just wanted to take me down the duel carriageway so I could floor it 😁

Is the pod point the one with the cable attached or do you have to keep plugging in the one that comes with the car? 

The app looked decent from what he showed me. Is it server issues? I just want to be able to set the climate control when I'm in the house and set charging times.
		
Click to expand...

My podpoint is tethered yes. So no need for cable. Very useful 
If your charger has an app use that
The vauxhall app is crap .. it went down for 2 weeks over Easter came back yesterday

You can set the pre heating from the car to come on at certain times if the app is down 

Charge schedules are better from podpoint as I can turn it off at certain time where as vauxhall is only start at this time and that's it 

However whilst the app was down I could still press pre heat and that would work I just couldn't set schedules or see my charge but could from car 

Btw you can't see battery % from car unless cable is plugged in that's annoying but when app works that's what I use it for 

What I'd say is IF the app isn't updating try sending a pre heat schedule (not a start now) and it forces it to connect to the car 

If that doesn't work it's a server issue


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## BiMGuy (Apr 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I've gone right off the idea of buying an EV as it seems they don't get valeted when serviced 😉
		
Click to expand...

Thats a good thing. I specifically ask them not to clean my car as I don't want it scratching.


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## DannyOT (Apr 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My podpoint is tethered yes. So no need for cable. Very useful
If your charger has an app use that
The vauxhall app is crap .. it went down for 2 weeks over Easter came back yesterday

You can set the pre heating from the car to come on at certain times if the app is down

Charge schedules are better from podpoint as I can turn it off at certain time where as vauxhall is only start at this time and that's it

However whilst the app was down I could still press pre heat and that would work I just couldn't set schedules or see my charge but could from car

Btw you can't see battery % from car unless cable is plugged in that's annoying but when app works that's what I use it for

What I'd say is IF the app isn't updating try sending a pre heat schedule (not a start now) and it forces it to connect to the car

If that doesn't work it's a server issue
		
Click to expand...

Cheers for the info. 

Never thought I'd be so interested in a vauxhall but I'm looking forward to it. Annoyingly I'll probably use it less than my wife as I'm working from home and it will be her commuter so I probably won't drive it much.


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## Smiffy (Apr 14, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			I was generally very impressed with the quality of the corsa, I've never really liked vauxhalls but this felt like a big step up from the previous corsa that we had as a hire car a few years ago.
		
Click to expand...

That's because it's a Peugeot


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

If Carlsberg did interiors.....


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If Carlsberg did interiors.....

View attachment 36182

Click to expand...

Sticky finger marks everywhere!


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Sticky finger marks everywhere!
		
Click to expand...

A slight improvement on earlier/cheaper attempts


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## AAC (Apr 15, 2021)

No !  I reckon I might have 15 years driving left if i'm lucky, I just hope I can source decent petrol or diesel cars until then.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A slight improvement on earlier/cheaper attempts

View attachment 36183

Click to expand...

Absolutely... but I worry about information overload .. the real information is outside the car


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

Is that actually in production or is it the classic artists impression that never actually makes it to the consumer?

I can't quite make out if it is very smart or very distracting. The boy in me likes it.


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## AAC (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that actually in production or is it the classic artists impression that never actually makes it to the consumer?

I can't quite make out if it is very smart or very distracting. The boy in me likes it.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully my next car will be equipped with an analogue clock and plenty of burr walnut.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

AAC said:



			Hopefully my next car will be equipped with an analogue clock and plenty of burr walnut.
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha. Funnily enough that also appeals to me as well. An old style Jag or Merc E class interior. I can see the design attractiveness in both options but I do lean that way.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that actually in production or is it the classic artists impression that never actually makes it to the consumer?

I can't quite make out if it is very smart or very distracting. The boy in me likes it.
		
Click to expand...

It is completely feasible.. see Honda’s small electric car. There will be limitations on angles for visibility etc .. but that display will be common I am sure in prestige it top line vehicles in the next 2 years ... not sure whether the powertrain is of relevance but s class is the first likely place for this


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## drdel (Apr 15, 2021)

We have run a hybrid for 5 years, a converted petrol head.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If Carlsberg did interiors.....

View attachment 36182

Click to expand...

All very nice until it goes wrong.....


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## BiMGuy (Apr 15, 2021)

Now there are some interesting estates emerging. I could be tempted by something like the Tycan Cross Tourismo when my current car goes in a couple of years.


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Now there are some interesting estates emerging. I could be tempted by something like the Tycan Cross Tourismo when my current car goes in a couple of years.
		
Click to expand...

The Skoda Enyaq will also tow up to 1000 kilogrammes if thats your thing.



Bunkermagnet said:



			All very nice until it goes wrong.....
		
Click to expand...

Same as an ICE car....
Except there's no oil change, new cambelt, clutch, gearbox, catalitic convertor to get stolen, exhaust etc.
You do have to keep the water bottle topped up though.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The Skoda Enyaq will also tow up to 1000 kilogrammes if thats your thing.



Same as an ICE car....
Except there's no oil change, new cambelt, clutch, gearbox, catalitic convertor to get stolen, exhaust etc.
You do have to keep the water bottle topped up though.  

Click to expand...


That Skoda looks decent. Towing is not my thing, but I often need to put a lot of stuff in the boot or carry 4 bikes.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That Skoda looks decent. Towing is not my thing, but I often need to put a lot of stuff in the boot or carry 4 bikes.
		
Click to expand...

It does look good, more normal as well


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That Skoda looks decent. Towing is not my thing, but I often need to put a lot of stuff in the boot or carry 4 bikes.
		
Click to expand...

That's on my list of cars to check out in 4 years time when the Corsa goes back 

Kids will be 8 4 and 4 then so maybe bigger car for me to commute in but still keep the tank for when we go out as family

It's enjoying it's semi retirement


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Same as an ICE car....
Except there's no oil change, new cambelt, clutch, gearbox, catalitic convertor to get stolen, exhaust etc.
You do have to keep the water bottle topped up though.  

Click to expand...

Just PCB's, transformers, diodes, TFT displays, sensors gallore.
Modern electronics have become really cheap in comparison to a little while ago, yet electronics in cars are through the roof. Why do you suppose that is?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Just PCB's, transformers, diodes, TFT displays, sensors gallore.
Modern electronics have become really cheap in comparison to a little while ago, yet electronics in cars are through the roof. Why do you suppose that is?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but all modern ICE cars are full of sensors that fail


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			All very nice until it goes wrong.....
		
Click to expand...

So you'd be happy to go without electric windows, air bags, remote central locking, ABS, power steering, A/C, sat nav/media centre, etc etc, after all, they could all go wrong.


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

I wonder if the designer was a Star Trek fan


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 15, 2021)

Driving an ID4 tomorrow to Central London
Just driven it home from The Office, seems very nice indeed

300+ mile range


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## banjofred (Apr 15, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Driving an ID4 tomorrow to Central London
Just driven it home from The Office, seems very nice indeed

300+ mile range 

Click to expand...

Just took a quick look online. £37,000ish?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Driving an ID4 tomorrow to Central London
Just driven it home from The Office, seems very nice indeed
*
300+ mile ran*ge 

Click to expand...

Is that official figures or in reality?


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that official figures or in reality?
		
Click to expand...

Reality is nearer 250


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 15, 2021)

I’ll tell you tomorrow 
83% charged showing 304 miles range

50 mile journey so hope the delivery range will be around 250

I’ll report back 👍


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that actually in production or is it the classic artists impression that never actually makes it to the consumer?

I can't quite make out if it is very smart or very distracting. The boy in me likes it.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like the real deal.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/...-J4YmzwROj03ZN8DyCtWm5feux4ZsAL0jGBgMuB2SR0qw


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’ll tell you tomorrow
83% charged showing 304 miles range

50 mile journey so hope the delivery range will be around 250

I’ll report back 👍
		
Click to expand...

Delivered with 247 miles left
The last 10 miles only used 3 miles of charge, obviously urban stop start is good for recharging 👍

Nice car, V impressed


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Looks like the real deal.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/...-J4YmzwROj03ZN8DyCtWm5feux4ZsAL0jGBgMuB2SR0qw

View attachment 36214

Click to expand...

Rumour has it (speaking to a Merc sales bod at the weekend whilst HID was buying her new car) is that the base EQS could start at £115,000. That is eyewatering for any car regardless of EV or ICE.

This is the issue that EVs face. For a decent sized car (not a micro like a Leaf or a Note or ID3) the cost is prohibitive to many. When coupled with the continuing poor infrastructure outside of cities, it doesn't make them viable. 

Evangelists will respond with "ah but it's getting better". So is the weather, but it's not quite summer yet, so I won't be buying up much sun tan lotion for now. 

EVs are like 5G for me. Great idea, great principles, but until coverage is more balances for all... older tech (in this case ICEs) will be the preferred option.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			10 years ago there were no electric cars or chargers. Today, there are over *35,000 chargers* https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ In 15 years time, who knows how many.
		
Click to expand...

5 months later there are now over 40,000 chargers

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			5 months later there are now over 40,000 chargers

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

Click to expand...

I don't doubt the number of charging points has increased, but I go past a garage that has had 7 charging points installed for the rapid charging about 5 months ago, and out of that 7 there, there has always been 2 that are out of commision for one reason or another (you can tell by the red light on and no cars in the space, and not the same ones all the time.) I doubt that  many  petrol pumps keep going down at any one station.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I don't doubt the number of charging points has increased, but I go past a garage that has had 7 charging points installed for the rapid charging about 5 months ago, and out of that 7 there, there has always been 2 that are out of commision for one reason or another (you can tell by the red light on and no cars in the space, and not the same ones all the time.) I doubt that  many  petrol pumps keep going down at any one station.

Click to expand...

What about when the entire station is closed to refuel for a bit?

You have no idea how long those chargers are out for ... Could be seconds... Hours. Weeks ..


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I don't doubt the number of charging points has increased, but I go past a garage that has had 7 charging points installed for the rapid charging about 5 months ago, and out of that 7 there, there has always been 2 that are out of commision for one reason or another (you can tell by the red light on and no cars in the space, and not the same ones all the time.) I doubt that  many  petrol pumps keep going down at any one station.

Click to expand...

Bugger, that means there's only 39,998 left to choose from.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What about when the entire station is closed to refuel for a bit?

You have no idea how long those chargers are out for ... Could be seconds... Hours. Weeks ..
		
Click to expand...

When a different 2 are out of use every morning since they were insatlled and commisioned, I suppose that doesn't say anything


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			When a different 2 are out of use every morning since they were insatlled and commisioned, I suppose that doesn't say anything

Click to expand...

If it's a diff two each time it points to maintance as you wouldn't get a diff two each morning 

I'm sure you have looked about twice and just trying to make a point without actual evidence and research


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If it's a diff two each time it points to maintance as you wouldn't get a diff two each morning

I'm sure you have looked about twice and just trying to make a point without actual evidence and research
		
Click to expand...

It's whatiffery from both of you. You are making points to the contrary with no evidence that its not a technical fault.

I can't really see many people on here disagreeing that the infrastructure is improving. Its just not fast enough if they want to push an agenda. 5000 additional charge points nationwide in 5 months isn't good enough to support the kind of demand that will be needed. 

As I said, it IS getting better, but so is the weather. 

I get it, you and Bob are fans, and like most fans won't hear a bad word said about EVs despite the evidence being heavily weighted against mass adoption.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It's whatiffery from both of you. You are making points to the contrary with no evidence that its not a technical fault.

I can't really see many people on here disagreeing that the infrastructure is improving. Its just not fast enough if they want to push an agenda. 5000 additional charge points nationwide in 5 months isn't good enough to support the kind of demand that will be needed. 

As I said, it IS getting better, but so is the weather. 

I get it, you and Bob are fans, and like most fans won't hear a bad word said about EVs despite the evidence being heavily weighted against mass adoption.
		
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Sorry but bunker comes back with points every few weeks that are just pish 

Last time it was sensors failing on cars .. like.ice don't have them

This time is constant chargers out of use .. like a petrol garage is never closed (one on the 406 was closed the entire pandemic)

There is plenty wrong with ev which is being addressed but what need to change the most is people's attuides toward change ..


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but bunker comes back with points every few weeks that are just pish

Last time it was sensors failing on cars .. like.ice don't have them

This time is constant chargers out of use .. like a petrol garage is never closed (one on the 406 was closed the entire pandemic)

There is plenty wrong with ev which is being addressed but what need to change the most is people's attuides toward change ..
		
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I agree in part. The main challenge is people's attitudes won't change until real progress is seen outside of cities. 

I live fairly rural and we should have 15 points within a 3 mile drive. Of those, 2 are always in use, 4 have never worked (at all) and 4 haven't even actually been installed. 

My main concern, and the whole ICE cars have loads of parts argument, is that EVs don't. If my O2 sensor goes, I know what it is and I replace it. If my clutch goes, its just the clutch not the whole engine. 
Most EVs that I have seen work on completely sealed single unit motors. If that goes its the whole thing that needs replaced .

It is improving, no one can deny. But the drawbacks and flaws need to be acknowledged on both sides, not just the selected side, in order for the argument to hold water.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Delivered with 247 miles left
The last 10 miles only used 3 miles of charge, obviously urban stop start is good for recharging 👍

Nice car, V impressed
		
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I was in a shopping centre today and one was inside. It looked good, Golf sized. Good to see the next size up models coming through.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but bunker comes back with points every few weeks that are just pish

Last time it was sensors failing on cars .. like.ice don't have them

This time is constant chargers out of use .. like a petrol garage is never closed (one on the 406 was closed the entire pandemic)

There is plenty wrong with ev which is being addressed but what need to change the most is people's attuides toward change ..
		
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I agree it's pish that a group of 7 new charging points at a petrol station can't be kept working, and I assume the red light instead of the green one indicates it cant be used, when a brand new installation.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was in a shopping centre today and one was inside. It looked good, Golf sized. Good to see the next size up models coming through.
		
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From £40110 so will attract the £310 road tax surcharge (vehicles over £40000).


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I agree in part. The main challenge is people's attitudes won't change until real progress is seen outside of cities. 

I live fairly rural and we should have 15 points within a 3 mile drive. Of those, 2 are always in use, 4 have never worked (at all) and 4 haven't even actually been installed. 

My main concern, and the whole ICE cars have loads of parts argument, is that EVs don't. If my O2 sensor goes, I know what it is and I replace it. If my clutch goes, its just the clutch not the whole engine. 
Most EVs that I have seen work on completely sealed single unit motors. If that goes its the whole thing that needs replaced .

It is improving, no one can deny. But the drawbacks and flaws need to be acknowledged on both sides, not just the selected side, in order for the argument to hold water.
		
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There are clearly flaws on both sides however an important point people fail to acknowledge is that we need to change , oil is running out long term, we are on verge of climate disaster

Yet people won't make a switch unless it is to something exactly the same as they have now 

Another one is meat.  People love meat and if came a time we had to stop eating it people won't adoppt a change to make sure the world actually survives because it's inconvenient

Not saying we should do either .. but a slight adaptation of lifestyle compromise to get something that will benefit the planet


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## banjofred (Apr 16, 2021)

In this area.....looks good on a map....in reality, not so good. Chargers that are only good if you stay at a hotel....or a restaurant etc. IT IS getting better.....no doubt about it. 
Give me this....minimum....
1. 200 mile range.....minimum....no doubt about it. Heat on.....radio on.....lights on......driving like zombies are after me.
2. 90% charge in 30 min or LESS.
3. PLENTY of charge points.....EASY to find charge points..........People want convenience, not a treasure hunt. Convenience......really really convenient.....not anywhere near that yet.

Maybe in 5 years....can't see it until then. Hoping new battery improvements will keep things getting better. 

I'm a fan...really.....next car I buy I'm hoping will be electric. But not yet.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			There are clearly flaws on both sides however an important point people fail to acknowledge is that we need to change , oil is running out long term, we are on verge of climate disaster

Yet people won't make a switch unless it is to something exactly the same as they have now

Another one is meat.  People love meat and if came a time we had to stop eating it people won't adoppt a change to make sure the world actually survives because it's inconvenient

Not saying we should do either .. but a slight adaptation of lifestyle compromise to get something that will benefit the planet
		
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I don't think anyone is saying we don't need to change. We are constantly reminded that we need to change. Change won't happen without people being brought along "on the journey" so to speak, simply instructing and then being evangelical about it won't get people to change, especially if the support needed to change doesn't really exist. 

Of course people want uninterrupted transition, why would they not if it's not an autonomous change? 

I sense you live in or around a city where the infrastructure probably isn't too bad. And that's fair enough. But we can't assume that everyone's usecase is the same just because something works for us. 

I wouldn't suggest you buy a 500HP car just because I like it and think it's fun.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I don't think anyone is saying we don't need to change. We are constantly reminded that we need to change. Change won't happen without people being brought along "on the journey" so to speak, simply instructing and then being evangelical about it won't get people to change, especially if the support needed to change doesn't really exist. 

Of course people want uninterrupted transition, why would they not if it's not an autonomous change? 

I sense you live in or around a city where the infrastructure probably isn't too bad. And that's fair enough. But we can't assume that everyone's usecase is the same just because something works for us. 

I wouldn't suggest you buy a 500HP car just because I like it and think it's fun.
		
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Whilst I do live near a city with good charges etc I have the home charger

Also those without the living in big cities more likely to have a driveway no?

Home chargers are brilliant for it 

Full tank every morning 

I charge every 2-3 days but can charge nightly if I wish. Takes but ,30 seconds to set up


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## PNWokingham (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			There are clearly flaws on both sides however an important point people fail to acknowledge is that we need to change , oil is running out long term, we are on verge of climate disaster

Yet people won't make a switch unless it is to something exactly the same as they have now

Another one is meat.  People love meat and if came a time we had to stop eating it people won't adoppt a change to make sure the world actually survives because it's inconvenient

Not saying we should do either .. but a slight adaptation of lifestyle compromise to get something that will benefit the planet
		
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just catching up on these 52 pages! I am guessing you are on the side of an electric car rather than a nice raspy v8?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just catching up on these 52 pages! I am guessing you are on the side of an electric car rather than a nice raspy v8?
		
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Don't mind either sides decision it's just when people come up with complete drivel (either outdated about ev) or silly reasons it will never work just to avoid the elephant in the room


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I can't really see many people on here disagreeing that the infrastructure is improving. Its just not fast enough if they want to push an agenda. 5000 additional charge points nationwide in 5 months isn't good enough to support the kind of demand that will be needed.
		
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There has been a worldwide pandemic over the last 15 months or so which may have slowed things down a touch.

I've said this all along, EV's aren't for everyone.
If you can charge at home or at work and you only do 100-200 miles a week, they are perfect for commuting and the school run. Others with longer journeys aren't catered for yet but there's years to go before the ban on NEW ICE CAR SALES and prices will get to the point where buying electric is just the better deal.
As far as the evangelist label......
Evangelists preaching is based on a story book written by bronze aged goat herders over 2000 years ago.
My opinions are drawn from science and facts, not religion so maybe a different label could be used because religous is one thing I am not.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I do live near a city with good charges etc I have the home charger

Also those without the living in big cities more likely to have a driveway no?

Home chargers are brilliant for it

Full tank every morning

I charge every 2-3 days but can charge nightly if I wish. Takes but ,30 seconds to set up
		
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See, these are the assumptions that pro-EV people make. I have a driveway but there are 9 or 10 houses in the same street that don't and are on-street. This is replicated in many small villages where space to build was maximised at the expense of things like driveways. 

Many mining cottages in our villages are on-street with even little garden space. 

As I said before, it works for YOU. But we simply cannot assume that there is a way that it will work for everyone without the investment to rapidly improve the infrastructure. 

There is the secondary issue that charging takes time. If I forget to charge and need to do this when I am out, the convenience isn't there. As an example, I went to Tesco on Wednesday night. There was a black Leaf in one of the charge bays when I went in. When I came out 40 mins later it was still there. If someone was needing that charge point, tough titty. 
I went over to get petrol, was in, paid and out in less than 3 minutes. 

Now I'm not saying charging needs to be that quick, but sitting waiting 40+ minutes on even accessing a charge point is not giving it a positive glow at all.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There has been a worldwide pandemic over the last 15 months or so which may have slowed things down a touch.

I've said this all along, EV's aren't for everyone.
If you can charge at home or at work and you only do 100-200 miles a week, they are perfect for commuting and the school run. Others with longer journeys aren't catered for yet but there's years to go before the ban on NEW ICE CAR SALES and prices will get to the point where buying electric is just the better deal.
As far as the evangelist label......
Evangelists preaching is based on a story book written by bronze aged goat herders over 2000 years ago.
My opinions are drawn from science and facts, not religion so maybe a different label could be used because religous is one thing I am not.
		
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I like EVs and the theory behind them, I think they are the future. Not just because we are banning ICEs but because technology is allowing it to become more adaptable for driving. But it's just not there as a complete package. 

I'm not sure that you were references as an evangelist. This term was used generally for people that cannot see the wood for the trees, of which I am certain you are not in this category. 

There are years to go, and I am sure it will improve but the pace needs to increase in order for it to be viable to people who don't like in cities and don't have this convenient charge at home. 

It's another of those circular arguments, much like whether dress codes need to change and I can't add much more than I have. I like EVs and will get one when a) cost to own a reasonable large and not ugly car comes down and b) there is sufficient infrastructure to make owning one not be a complete ball ache of planning charging cycles so that I don't find myself either 1) stranded in the middle of nowhere or 2) waiting half of my day in queues for charge points.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			See, these are the assumptions that pro-EV people make. I have a driveway but there are 9 or 10 houses in the same street that don't and are on-street. This is replicated in many small villages where space to build was maximised at the expense of things like driveways. 

Many mining cottages in our villages are on-street with even little garden space. 

As I said before, it works for YOU. But we simply cannot assume that there is a way that it will work for everyone without the investment to rapidly improve the infrastructure. 

There is the secondary issue that charging takes time. If I forget to charge and need to do this when I am out, the convenience isn't there. As an example, I went to Tesco on Wednesday night. There was a black Leaf in one of the charge bays when I went in. When I came out 40 mins later it was still there. If someone was needing that charge point, tough titty. 
I went over to get petrol, was in, paid and out in less than 3 minutes. 

Now I'm not saying charging needs to be that quick, but sitting waiting 40+ minutes on even accessing a charge point is not giving it a positive glow at all.
		
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Forgetting to charge becomes not a thing tho , just stick the cable in when you get home 

Fair enough 

Supermarkets need more chargers for sure 

Lampost chargers look a very good way around off street


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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Forgetting to charge becomes not a thing tho , just stick the cable in when you get home

Fair enough

Supermarkets need more chargers for sure

Lampost chargers look a very good way around off street
		
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Seems that lamppost charging has been talked about for years with little to no progress. If they cracked that nut then it would vastly improve people's response. 

Whilst it's highly unlikely that I would forget to charge and run out of juice in a journey, the issue remains that it could happen and, like your house going on fire, it only needs to happen once for it to cause a real problem. 

I appreciate that I could run out of petrol, but it's infinitely easier to rectify that as it stands than if I was stranded with no electrical charge.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Seems that lamppost charging has been talked about for years with little to no progress. If they cracked that nut then it would vastly improve people's response.

Whilst it's highly unlikely that I would forget to charge and run out of juice in a journey, the issue remains that it could happen and, like your house going on fire, it only needs to happen once for it to cause a real problem.
		
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 Evs are too expensive  Got it
The charging infrastructure isn't there yet.  Gotcha
You need more range.  Ok
Can't charge at home.  Right

The boffins know all this and are working hard to improve things, it will just take time.
I only have two requests....
Can all ice cream vans be converted from diesel to electric please.
We've got no idea what these little kids are breathing in when they're queing for their 99.
Ditto for school buses.



GreiginFife said:



			I appreciate that I could run out of petrol, but it's infinitely easier to rectify that as it stands than if I was stranded with no electrical charge.
		
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## GreiginFife (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Evs are too expensive  Got it
The charging infrastructure isn't there yet.  Gotcha
You need more range.  Ok
Can't charge at home.  Right

The boffins know all this and are working hard to improve things, it will just take time.
I only have two requests....
Can all ice cream vans be converted from diesel to electric please.
We've got no idea what these little kids are breathing in when they're queing for their 99.
Ditto for school buses.



View attachment 36217

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We agree on that then, It will take time. As all technology changes do.

I get that the RAC can charge. Do you know what the average call out time for the RAC in general is? Also I need to be a member, no? Or are they going to offer this out of the goodness of their corporate soul?

Bob, I get it you love EVs and that's great. As I say, I like them too. But in order for technology (of any sort) to be successful, it needs to be fully supported. Not partially, it'll be fine in a few years, supported. This, ultimately is the other "elephant in the room" that the pro-EV lobby won't accept but focus on the other "elephant" that is we need to change.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			From £40110 so will attract the £310 road tax surcharge (vehicles over £40000).
		
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Ouch 😳. Not the road tax, the £40k.


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## USER1999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Forgetting to charge becomes not a thing tho , just stick the cable in when you get home
		
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So why do people run out of charge on their phones? All the time? 

Because they forget to charge them. Do I? No. But loads do.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			So why do people run out of charge on their phones? All the time? 

Because they forget to charge them. Do I? No. But loads do.
		
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Because they are constantly on them and never put them down? 

Where as your car once your done for day are you going to check that email, take it off charge to make a call. No once it's in plug it in unless u need to go somehwere


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## BiMGuy (Apr 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I agree it's pish that a group of 7 new charging points at a petrol station can't be kept working, and I assume the red light instead of the green one indicates it cant be used, when a brand new installation.
		
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So you don't actually know if they are working or not?


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## BiMGuy (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			So why do people run out of charge on their phones? All the time? 

Because they forget to charge them. Do I? No. But loads do.
		
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Just like people forget to put petrol or diesel in their cars an run out.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 16, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			So you don't actually know if they are working or not?
		
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You assume not because the access light is showing red......whereas when they are showing green you must assume they are.
That would be common sense reasoning......yes?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but bunker comes back with points every few weeks that are just pish

Last time it was sensors failing on cars .. like.ice don't have them

This time is constant chargers out of use .. like a petrol garage is never closed (one on the 406 was closed the entire pandemic)

*There is plenty wrong with ev which is being addressed but what need to change the most is people's attuides toward change *..
		
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Maybe what needs to change is the plenty wrong with ev, and when that happens people's attitude towards them will change.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe what needs to change is the plenty wrong with ev, and when that happens people's attitude towards them will change.
		
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There's plenty wrong with ICE cars too which will never change.
EV's however are improving all the time.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There's plenty wrong with ICE cars too which will never change.
*EV's however are improving all the time.*

Click to expand...

As are ICE cars.

But ICE cars don't ask more money for less performance which is the biggest issue for some.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			We agree on that then, It will take time. As all technology changes do.
		
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Of course I agree. I've never said it would happen overnight.



GreiginFife said:



			I get that the RAC can charge. Do you know what the average call out time for the RAC in general is? Also I need to be a member, no? Or are they going to offer this out of the goodness of their corporate soul?
		
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I guess you need to be a member whether you need petrol, diesel or electricity.



GreiginFife said:



			Bob, I get it you love EVs and that's great. As I say, I like them too. But in order for technology (of any sort) to be successful, it needs to be fully supported. Not partially, it'll be fine in a few years, supported. This, ultimately is the other "elephant in the room" that the pro-EV lobby won't accept but focus on the other "elephant" that is we need to change.
		
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Yes, I know but you've got over 20 years to adapt, by which time there will be chargers everyhere...at the gym, cinema, curry house, multi-story car park, supermarket, golf club, office block, swimming pool etc etc


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			As are ICE cars.

But ICE cars don't ask more money for less performance which is the biggest issue for some.
		
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Do you mean mph or mpg?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe what needs to change is the plenty wrong with ev, and when that happens people's attitude towards them will change.
		
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They will change but what if they are never exactly the same 

What if the refil is perfected but say it takes 10 mins to add a full tank and a full tank is say 250 miles 

People still need to then release right that isn't what we have now of 5 mins for many miles but that's pretty good. Maybe we should adapt


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			The energy might be cheaper but the cost of a lot of the cars is prohibitive for a lot of people.
		
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True, but that is not an argument against the principle of wanting to help the planet.
I recognise that pure electric cars are not possible for most at the moment, for a number of valid reasons which cannot be argued against .
However, it is an inconvenient truth which Attenborough promotes that as a species we have to make an effort as best we can to change or cock up this planet.
It isn't really a question for polarising over, we need to get to a solution the best way we can whilst still recognising the hurdles.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Rumour has it (speaking to a Merc sales bod at the weekend whilst HID was buying her new car) is that the base EQS could start at £115,000. That is eyewatering for any car regardless of EV or ICE.

This is the issue that EVs face. For a decent sized car (not a micro like a Leaf or a Note or ID3) the cost is prohibitive to many. When coupled with the continuing poor infrastructure outside of cities, it doesn't make them viable.

Evangelists will respond with "ah but it's getting better". So is the weather, but it's not quite summer yet, so I won't be buying up much sun tan lotion for now.

EVs are like 5G for me. Great idea, great principles, but until coverage is more balances for all... older tech (in this case ICEs) will be the preferred option.
		
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It's a good point about 5g

However do you remember when 4g was new. Cost a lot. Only certain locations had it..had to pay more to get it 

Now it's the norm (as in you don't get a phone that's none 4g you just dont get signal) and prices are the same 

Tech levels out price wise 

By time petrol cars sales are banned cost will have dropped 

Just takes one company to drop their price and others will undercut them


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but bunker comes back with points every few weeks that are just pish

Last time it was sensors failing on cars .. like.ice don't have them

This time is constant chargers out of use .. like a petrol garage is never closed (one on the 406 was closed the entire pandemic)

There is plenty wrong with ev which is being addressed but what need to change the most is people's attuides toward change ..
		
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No what needs to change is the price of the cars and the charging infrastructure for people that don't have off road parking. Once those issues are fixed I'm sure there will be a huge uptake in the EV market.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a good point about 5g

However do you remember when 4g was new. Cost a lot. Only certain locations had it..had to pay more to get it

Now it's the norm (as in you don't get a phone that's none 4g you just dont get signal) and prices are the same

Tech levels out price wise

By time petrol cars sales are banned cost will have dropped

Just takes one company to drop their price and others will undercut them
		
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I have not disagreed. I have maintained that technology takes time which is my whole point 🙄. 

*We are nowhere near ready for the viable answer to this thread to be a definitive yes. *

4G was exactly the same yes with the big exception that from no coverage to pretty much blanket coverage (there are still non covered areas) took around 5 years IIRC.

 But the question still remains (substitute 5G handset for EV in this analogy);

Would you pay an extra £200 for a 5G handset when there is little to no 5G coverage in your area? 

It WILL get better, I have no doubt, but for the answer to "would you buy an electric car?" to become yes for a vast majority the pace needs to increase dramatically. 

If you are happy with a small car for short repetitive trips and have the facility to charge at home, great, more power to your elbow. 
I personally don't want or need a small car and journeys in my area tend to be longer as its not as urban.


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It WILL get better, I have no doubt, but for the answer to "would you buy an electric car?" to become yes for a vast majority the pace needs to increase dramatically.

If you are happy with a small car for short repetitive trips and have the facility to charge at home, great, more power to your elbow.
I personally don't want or need a small car and journeys in my area tend to be longer as its not as urban.
		
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bobmac said:



			Evs are too expensive  Got it
The charging infrastructure isn't there yet.  Gotcha
You need more range.  Ok
Can't charge at home.  Right
		
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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2021)

The majority (it's roughly 60:40) of UK dwellings have off street parking. But it gets better. Those who don't drive cars are over-represented in the dwellings with no car parking. PWC recently estimated that a stunning* 84% of UK drivers have access to off-street parking at home.*

https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/electric-car-no-driveway


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't mind either sides decision it's just when people come up with complete drivel (either outdated about ev) or silly reasons it will never work just to avoid the elephant in the room
		
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I think it is you that's ignoring the elephant in the room. You don't seem to accept the issues of cost and access for a very large percentage of the motoring population. I can buy a Nissan Leaf (almost £30k) or a Focus (not much more than £20k?) and if I don't have a driveway I need to find public chargers which are much more expensive than off peak tariff home chargers. 
You've made you're point, you're a fan of EVs. Please accept the other side of the argument that the current situation does not suit lots of people.


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think it is you that's ignoring the elephant in the room. You don't seem to accept the issues of cost and access for a very large percentage of the motoring population. I can buy a Nissan Leaf (almost £30k) or a Focus (not much more than £20k?) and if I don't have a driveway *I need to find public chargers which are much more expensive than off peak tariff home chargers.*
You've made you're point, you're a fan of EVs. Please accept the other side of the argument that the current situation does not suit lots of people.
		
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_''You’ll find electric charging bays at Tesco Extra and Tesco Superstore sites throughout the UK*, the majority of which are free-to-use* 7kW fast chargers. Other 22kW and 50kW rapid chargers are ‘priced in line with market rates’'_

_https://www.motoringelectric.com/charging/how-find-nearest-tesco-electric-charging-point/_

_Ecotricity, which provides charging points at all motorway services in the UK, charges about £6 for a 45-minute recharge with a rapid charger. In a Nissan Leaf, this should fill up the battery to 80% of its full range. _

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/electric-car-charging-guide/n18056


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''You’ll find electric charging bays at Tesco Extra and Tesco Superstore sites throughout the UK*, the majority of which are free-to-use* 7kW fast chargers. Other 22kW and 50kW rapid chargers are ‘priced in line with market rates’'_

_https://www.motoringelectric.com/charging/how-find-nearest-tesco-electric-charging-point/_

_Ecotricity, which provides charging points at all motorway services in the UK, charges about £6 for a 45-minute recharge with a rapid charger. In a Nissan Leaf, this should fill up the battery to 80% of its full range. _

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/electric-car-charging-guide/n18056

Click to expand...

I used to car share with a guy that has a Leaf. Real world range is about 150-160 miles at motorway speeds so 80% of that is about 120-130 miles for £6. Add in the inconvenience of waiting for it to charge and I'd much rather have my own ICE car which will do comfortably over 45mpg on the motorway.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 17, 2021)

One good thing about EVs is my Tesla shares are up 23% 😁


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I used to car share with a guy that has a Leaf. Real world range is about 150-160 miles at motorway speeds so 80% of that is about 120-130 miles for £6. Add in the inconvenience of waiting for it to charge and I'd much rather have my own ICE car which will do comfortably over 45mpg on the motorway.
		
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If you were driving hundreds of miles a day, you wouldn't buy a Nissan Leaf.
You'd wait 3 or 4 years and get a car with a solid state battery.

_The Volkswagen Group is increasing its stake in QuantumScape and making an additional investment of up to US$200 million in the US battery specialist._

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com...lkswagen-increases-stake-in-quantumscape-6136


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I think it is you that's ignoring the elephant in the room. You don't seem to accept the issues of cost and access for a very large percentage of the motoring population. I can buy a Nissan Leaf (almost £30k) or a Focus (not much more than £20k?) and if I don't have a driveway I need to find public chargers which are much more expensive than off peak tariff home chargers.
You've made you're point, you're a fan of EVs. Please accept the other side of the argument that the current situation does not suit lots of people.
		
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Leasing, you can get deals on electric cars 

Buisness leasing will get a lot of people over in the tax saving 

Yes the price is high but it's coming down.

Have you seen the MG range?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I have not disagreed. I have maintained that technology takes time which is my whole point 🙄. 

*We are nowhere near ready for the viable answer to this thread to be a definitive yes. *

4G was exactly the same yes with the big exception that from no coverage to pretty much blanket coverage (there are still non covered areas) took around 5 years IIRC.

 But the question still remains (substitute 5G handset for EV in this analogy);

Would you pay an extra £200 for a 5G handset when there is little to no 5G coverage in your area? 

It WILL get better, I have no doubt, but for the answer to "would you buy an electric car?" to become yes for a vast majority the pace needs to increase dramatically. 

If you are happy with a small car for short repetitive trips and have the facility to charge at home, great, more power to your elbow. 
I personally don't want or need a small car and journeys in my area tend to be longer as its not as urban.
		
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I think the gov have got it wrong 

It should be a pronged attack 

Ban diesel cars. Their the worst for fumes 

Promote electric cars for those who can

However. Hybrids! Perfect compromise . Can be refueled like a normal car. Especially self charging ones 

Good option for most who can't afford electric 

Surely would have worked better


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think the gov have got it wrong

It should be a pronged attack

Ban diesel cars. Their the worst for fumes

Promote electric cars for those who can

However. Hybrids! Perfect compromise . Can be refueled like a normal car. Especially self charging ones

Good option for most who can't afford electric

Surely would have worked better
		
Click to expand...

Are you talking plug in hybrids or self charging? Do self charging really make much difference? I don't see staggering mpg returns for self charging hybrids, I'm not sure they do what they are supposed to.

Plug ins are a better halfway house, I'd agree with you there. I'd happily swap to a plug in. Can't currently afford it, but it wouldn't mean compromises. Govt don't seem fans though


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you talking plug in hybrids or self charging? Do self charging really make much difference? I don't see staggering mpg returns for self charging hybrids, I'm not sure they do what they are supposed to.

Plug ins are a better halfway house, I'd agree with you there. I'd happily swap to a plug in. Can't currently afford it, but it wouldn't mean compromises. Govt don't seem fans though
		
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Plug in where possible however self charging do work 

I had an auris ..

Returned 60mpg compared to 75 claimed most of time 

Did make a real difference 

Also under 40mph you could go even further on it 

Plug in are better .


I'd like a plug in and an electric 

Charge off same socket ..

Like I said before once the twins are out of car seats I'll move the alhambra on for full electric or plug in

11 years time tho unfortunately..


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2021)

Ragged my Z4 through the lanes today, hood down, engine up. Nothing electric is going to come close to the experience. Just pure driving fun.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Ragged my Z4 through the lanes today, hood down, engine up. Nothing electric is going to come close to the experience. Just pure driving fun.
		
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However with what's got to change in the world so the planet doesn't die off what's More important? A bit of fun or the ability to get from a to b 

Electric may never replace the feel for petrol heads but I don't think that's the important part 

Getting electric ready to be the best replacement it can be for normal driving


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However with what's got to change in the world so the planet doesn't die off what's More important? A bit of fun or the ability to get from a to b
		
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I hear that comment all to often with EV owners, when they have a small EV and a 4x4 or SUV as well.
If concern for the planet is that great, why not get rid of the big thirsty lump and have another EV?
And just to be clear, that is  not directed at you personally just in general at those who have the small EV and second big car.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I hear that comment all to often with EV owners, when they have a small EV and a 4x4 or SUV as well.
If concern for the planet is that great, why not get rid of the big thirsty lump and have another EV?
And just to be clear, that is  not directed at you personally just in general at those who have the small EV and second big car.
		
Click to expand...

I think this will change soon as the options are coming 

Most need a big SUV or such to actually get their family about , so options are limited . However now there is the Skoda coming SUV that looks brilliant and has good range 

The options are there 

As I've said s few times. Once my kids old enough I'd love to get an SUV EV


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However with what's got to change in the world so the planet doesn't die off what's More important? A bit of fun or the ability to get from a to b

Electric may never replace the feel for petrol heads but I don't think that's the important part

Getting electric ready to be the best replacement it can be for normal driving
		
Click to expand...

Absolute tosh. Can't see it any other way. 

2006 car, made years ago, versus buying a new car with all the environmental impact of buying new. Recycling is, and always will be greener.
Reducing flights, cruises, foreign holidays will make way more difference than someone blatting enthusiastically for 5 miles to the golf club.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Absolute tosh. Can't see it any other way. 

2006 car, made years ago, versus buying a new car with all the environmental impact of buying new. Recycling is, and always will be greener.
Reducing flights, cruises, foreign holidays will make way more difference than someone blatting enthusiastically for 5 miles to the golf club.
		
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Absolutely if you keep the car until it dies, keep it going .. in good condition so that it goes as economically as it can etc etc 

Then when you come to replace tech will have moved enough forward 

Could keep that car another what 10-15 years?


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## USER1999 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Absolutely if you keep the car until it dies, keep it going .. in good condition so that it goes as economically as it can etc etc

Then when you come to replace tech will have moved enough forward

Could keep that car another what 10-15 years?
		
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For sure. I am in no hurry to change it, I love driving it.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			For sure. I am in no hurry to change it, I love driving it.
		
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I had an E46 M3. I've regretted selling if from the moment it left my driveway.

Having a nice fun to drive car is something worth keeping hold of. If I can continue worfrom home going forward I could be tempted to get something more fun while we still can.


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## bobmac (Apr 18, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Ragged my Z4 through the lanes today, hood down, engine up. Nothing electric is going to come close to the experience. Just pure driving fun.
		
Click to expand...

Don't look Murph.....

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/...2atugDSLdr6DHe_70H_2-Kik4ySfy7VneA_TbMGzEK-Zc


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I had an E46 M3. I've regretted selling if from the moment it left my driveway.

Having a nice fun to drive car is something worth keeping hold of. If I can continue worfrom home going forward I could be tempted to get something more fun while we still can.
		
Click to expand...

I think this sums up EVs for me. They serve a purpose but based on my experience they just don't give the same driving pleasure as a conventional car. If I have to make a long journey then I want it to be as enjoyable as possible and a ICE car does the job better.


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## IanM (Apr 18, 2021)

If lecky car technology mirrors that of phones, and it will... hang on a bit and we'll all be driving them!

Then the climate police will suss that electricity production isn't green and they'll campaign against them too.

Saw a 40 year old hippy on a kids scooter.  Thats nice and green, but its not gonna get me the 140 miles tp visit my mum!


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## drdel (Apr 18, 2021)

As a motor sport competitor my view is having 'fun' or 'spirited driving' and 'ragging it ' usually means driving faster than normal for the circumstances, expecially cornering which on country roads with constrained visibility ain't wise. The excitement is from the danger!

Public roads are for A to B travel where an EV can suffice.

If you want 'excitement '  go to a Track Day with a suitable motor and get brown trousers without endangering anyone other than yourself.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2021)

drdel said:



			As a motor sport competitor my view is having 'fun' or 'spirited driving' and 'ragging it ' usually means driving faster than normal for the circumstances, expecially cornering which on country roads with constrained visibility ain't wise. The excitement is from the danger!

Public roads are for A to B travel where an EV can suffice.

If you want 'excitement '  go to a Track Day with a suitable motor and get brown trousers without endangering anyone other than yourself.
		
Click to expand...

My view is different to yours.


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## drdel (Apr 18, 2021)

drive4show said:



			My view is different to yours.
		
Click to expand...

Fine.

The facts are.
 Average reaction time 0.18 seconds, at 60mph (27mps) it takes about 0.15 seconds to travel the (3,3m) width of a country lane: you're in the hedge or opposite lane before you've reacted!


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Forgetting to charge becomes not a thing tho , just stick the cable in when you get home 

Fair enough 

Supermarkets need more chargers for sure 

Lampost chargers look a very good way around off street
		
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No, lamppost chargers are not practicable. Do we have a society where it is safe to have a car charging in the street overnight, cables at the mercy of any yobs who may decide to "have a bit of fun".?
Or, those seeking compensation for "injuries" caused by your cable that they "tripped "over.😀
These may seem extreme examples of problems, but are they?  We won't be talking about the odd cable in a street, when EVs are the vast majority of cars 
then there are streets where there will be cables everywhere.
I look outside my window and it would be chaotic charging the cars I see parked overnight here. 
Totally impracticable I'm afraid.
I am in favour of EVs . But it will not happen until serious difficulties are overcome. Price -And mostly , charging the battery.
I suggest that there will come a time ,sooner than many think, when the battery technology will be such that the battery will become portable enough to be taken indoors and charged there , much as my buggy ( not trolley) battery is now.
The drive for EVs will cause that to happen. There will be such a need for ICE cars to be abandoned and EVs to be the norm , that this technology will be achieved.
Never underestimate the pace of change.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2021)

drdel said:



			Fine.

The facts are.
Average reaction time 0.18 seconds, at 60mph (27mps) it takes about 0.15 seconds to travel the (3,3m) width of a country lane: you're in the hedge or opposite lane before you've reacted!
		
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You are assuming people only 'rag it' on hedge lined Country lanes. I've driven on roads in Wales and Scotland where you can see literally miles down the road and they have virtually no traffic on them.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Never underestimate the pace of change.
		
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Isn't this part of the problem though. Now I fully understand ICE vehicles have to be phased out and the enviromental arguements against them and for EV, however if has been likened to mobile phones technology and the pace that it travels so fast aren't we just going to pollute more with a constant changing of vehicles? Years back a mobile phone was good for 5 years, then 3 years now 18 months. We are already see a 3 year lease as the norm for car ownership, but that in itself is highly polluting and damaging to the enviroment just to save a few grams of CO2 in our ownership of the car (we convieniently forget the construction etc of that new car).
Instead of just looking for vehicles we drive to change, how about we also change our ownership pattern. You could start by banning 3 years ownerships plans and make it a minimum 8 year ownership life of all new vehicles.


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## bobmac (Apr 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am in favour of EVs . But it will not happen until serious difficulties are overcome. Price -And mostly , charging the battery.
I suggest that there will come a time ,sooner than many think, when the battery technology will be such that the battery will become portable enough to be taken indoors and charged there , much as my buggy ( not trolley) battery is now.
		
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It's either that or charging gets faster.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's either that or charging gets faster.
		
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Until that speed gets to similar to filling up with petrol..........Hmmm
The street parking has to be catered for, one way or another.😀


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## pauljames87 (Apr 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Until that speed gets to similar to filling up with petrol..........Hmmm
The street parking has to be catered for, one way or another.😀
		
Click to expand...

Solid state batteries ... Talks of 300 mile range Rechargeable in 10 mins

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/M...g-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

Charging is improving all time from the originals

My 50kw battery can handle speeds of up to 100kw per hour charge 

Which garages like bp and shell are installing in forecourts 

Half hour for a full charge 

20 mins for 20-80% which would be enough to top up for me




However this is improvement on what was just a few years ago 

5 years time? Who knows


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## bobmac (Apr 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Solid state batteries ... Talks of 300 mile range Rechargeable in 10 mins

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/M...g-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

Charging is improving all time from the originals

My 50kw battery can handle speeds of up to 100kw per hour charge

Which garages like bp and shell are installing in forecourts

Half hour for a full charge

20 mins for 20-80% which would be enough to top up for me

View attachment 36240


However this is improvement on what was just a few years ago

5 years time? Who knows
		
Click to expand...

The charging station at Braintree has twelve 350kw chargers right now.
I know there's not that many cars that can charge that fast but it's the future

https://www.whatcar.com/news/uks-first-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens/n21937


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## pauljames87 (Apr 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The charging station at Braintree has twelve 350kw chargers right now.
I know there's not that many cars that can charge that fast but it's the future

https://www.whatcar.com/news/uks-first-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens/n21937

Click to expand...

I'm glad they are at least building for future charging rather than what they normally do and build for what's about now and then replace again


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## USER1999 (Apr 18, 2021)

drdel said:



			As a motor sport competitor my view is having 'fun' or 'spirited driving' and 'ragging it ' usually means driving faster than normal for the circumstances, expecially cornering which on country roads with constrained visibility ain't wise. The excitement is from the danger!

Public roads are for A to B travel where an EV can suffice.

If you want 'excitement '  go to a Track Day with a suitable motor and get brown trousers without endangering anyone other than yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Odd that I have 25 years plus of no claims bonus. According to you I should crash at least once a week. 

The lanes I go through are two way traffic, and I always slow for corners so that I can stop if necessary. It is still possible to have fun, within the speed limits, and visibility requirements. There are often cyclists or horses about who need respect.
Thanks for the advice, but I think I will manage OK.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2021)

5 years time? Who knows[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly . I agree. The technology will come.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 18, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Ragged my Z4 through the lanes today, hood down, engine up. Nothing electric is going to come close to the experience. Just pure driving fun.
		
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Oooooooh I beg to differ, I drive a Porsche Taycan. OMG it's truly epic and I'll never buy a internal combustion car again. With ss bats to come things are only getting lighter and even more crazy.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Oooooooh I beg to differ, I drive a Porsche Taycan. OMG it's truly epic and I'll never buy a internal combustion car again. With ss bats to come things are only getting lighter and even more crazy.
		
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Starting price £83k, not exactly an option for most people.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Starting price £83k, not exactly an option for most people.
		
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Mines the Turbo S  And the quote was nothing electric comes close to the driving experience of that famously cheap car of the people the BMW Z4..


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Mines the Turbo S  And the quote was nothing electric comes close to the driving experience of that famously cheap car of the people the BMW Z4..
		
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Well if you're talking that sort of budget then you still can't get the same driving experience from electric as you can from a similarly priced ICE car.


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## bobmac (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Well if you're talking that sort of budget then you still can't get the same driving experience from electric as you can from a similarly priced ICE car.
		
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There are those who say you can't get the same driving experience from a car as you can from a motor bike.
Thank goodness we're all different.

Now, about electric motorbikes....anyone fancy an electric Harley?


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## Whereditgo (Apr 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There are those who say you can't get the same driving experience from a car as you can from a motor bike.
Thank goodness we're all different.

Now, about electric motorbikes....anyone fancy an electric Harley?
		
Click to expand...

No thanks.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 19, 2021)

Finally found an EV that I can afford and has a rapid charing time. Looks the business too.


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## Piece (Apr 19, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Mines the Turbo S  And the quote was nothing electric comes close to the driving experience of that famously cheap car of the people the BMW Z4..
		
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Lovely, beautiful car that Taycan, ,  but calling it a 'Turbo' is a bit pointless though. .


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## USER1999 (Apr 19, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Mines the Turbo S  And the quote was nothing electric comes close to the driving experience of that famously cheap car of the people the BMW Z4..
		
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Well, my famously cheap car of the people, Z4, cost me 5500 about 4 years ago. That us about the cost of the cup holders in your Taycan.

A lot of the fun in the Z4 is obviously having the roof down, the engine noise, the involvment of driving, while not actually needing to go silly fast.

It also fits the road, being quite small. A bigger car doesn't really fit, as I know too well from driving my CLS.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There are those who say you can't get the same driving experience from a car as you can from a motor bike.
Thank goodness we're all different.

Now, about electric motorbikes....anyone fancy an electric Harley?

View attachment 36253

Click to expand...




Whereditgo said:



			No thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer.


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## Beezerk (Apr 19, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Odd that I have 25 years plus of no claims bonus.
		
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You know full well that this comment will now come back and bite you in the a$$ one day 😆


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## USER1999 (Apr 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			You know full well that this comment will now come back and bite you in the a$$ one day 😆
		
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I am slightly worried, I admit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...t-crashes-into-tree-and-catches-fire-12279915

😲😲


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## BiMGuy (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...t-crashes-into-tree-and-catches-fire-12279915

😲😲
		
Click to expand...

This year's Darwin award winner.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This year's Darwin award winner.
		
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Reports that the fire was going for 4 hours !! Why didn’t they use foam 🤷‍♂️

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www..../tesla-texas-driverless-crash/?outputType=amp


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This year's Darwin award winner.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/motorhome-crash/

Idiots will always be idiots


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## BiMGuy (Apr 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reports that the fire was going for 4 hours !! Why didn’t they use foam 🤷‍♂️

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www..../tesla-texas-driverless-crash/?outputType=amp

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Lithium batteries like being on fire once they start to burn. I don't think it matters much what the squirt it with.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Lithium batteries like being on fire once they start to burn. I don't think it matters much what the squirt it with.
		
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Thankfully the level of fires from a electric car is quite low compared to the petrol cars - but they are far more potent if they do happen. Not sure what the future batteries will be like 

https://airqualitynews.com/2020/10/09/electric-vehicle-fires-should-we-be-concerned/


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Lithium batteries like being on fire once they start to burn. I don't think it matters much what the squirt it with.
		
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That's what scares me about hydrogen .. yes petrol burns as does lithium 

But hydrogen would litterally be a bomb


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## sunshine (Apr 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/motorhome-crash/

Idiots will always be idiots
		
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That's hilarious! I can imagine my mum doing this.

Although the story is 4 years old. And can't be a candidate for a Darwin award.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 20, 2021)

sunshine said:



			That's hilarious! I can imagine my mum doing this.

Although the story is 4 years old. And can't be a candidate for a Darwin award.
		
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And also written by a Crime Editor called Rob Banks... 🤔


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 20, 2021)

Anyone had a golf battery go flambe?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reports that the fire was going for 4 hours !! Why didn’t they use foam 🤷‍♂️

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/19/tesla-texas-driverless-crash/?outputType=amp

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Hammond crashed an EV on Top Gear, think it burned for 2 days 😳


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## harpo_72 (Apr 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Hammond crashed an EV on Top Gear, think it burned for 2 days 😳
		
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They have an issue with the cells re-igniting and it’s quite surprising that major legislation has not investigated this.

Have a look at lightyear which is a Dutch outfit and a range of 700kms with solar panels to recharge up to 70kms a day. Looks like the old Citroen CX .. very interesting stuff


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/id4/109089/volkswagen-id4-named-world-car-year-2021

World car of the year? I mean it's nice but these awards so random


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## spongebob59 (May 5, 2021)

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/nearly-new-electric-cars-cost-run-petrol-diesel/amp/


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## GreiginFife (May 6, 2021)

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/354006/pure-electric-and-autonomous-nio-et7-saloon-unveiled

Quite liking the look of this at £60k albeit a long way off hitting our shores. 

Probably nearer £80k once UK rip off taxes are applied.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 4, 2021)

So BMW have unveiled the pricing for the i4 M50 variant (am I allowed to use that word?) and it's not quite M4 money at £64000 (from) but it's still a lot of dough when the M440i can be bought for £10k less. 

I am going to keep my eye on this though as the i4 M50 looks like a decent compromise with 200kW charging capability 80% in 30 minutes (still not great if you are out and about). It's disappointing though that the more expensive M50 is the only one with X-drive with the rest being rear wheel, not a great deal of use in a Scottish winter and the main reason my current M340i X-Drive is favourable. 

Change time for me will probably be Feb/Mar next year so see how the i4 performs.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So BMW have unveiled the pricing for the i4 M50 variant (am I allowed to use that word?) and it's not quite M4 money at £64000 (from) but it's still a lot of dough when the M440i can be bought for £10k less. 

I am going to keep my eye on this though as the i4 M50 looks like a decent compromise with 200kW charging capability 80% in 30 minutes (still not great if you are out and about). It's disappointing though that the more expensive M50 is the only one with X-drive with the rest being rear wheel, not a great deal of use in a Scottish winter and the main reason my current M340i X-Drive is favourable. 

Change time for me will probably be Feb/Mar next year so see how the i4 performs.
		
Click to expand...

There are a few interesting options starting to appear for EVs. Lots of sums need to be done as the sticker price isn't necessarily what you end up paying, taking into account, tax, charging etc. Now more than ever, working out the running cost over the period you have the car is critical to figure out what it will actually cost you.

As for the X-Dive. I would take a proper set of winter tyres over the X-Drive system with normal tyres.

I used to put winters on my M3 and it would go pretty much anywhere in the snow. My mate who has a 435 with X-Drive got stuck going up the hill into our village, that I got up with no drama.
Of course having both would be the perfect solution.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2021)

A guy turned up at my golf club on Tuesday in a new VW ID.3 (perilously close to the BMW name). Similar size to a Golf, a good looking car. Back seat had to be flat to get his clubs in mind . Good to see slightly bigger cars being an option though. If this change is going to happen we need cars that can move a family with luggage, not just runabouts. 

Price is still high, starts at £32k, but hopefully this will drop over time.


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## Robster59 (Jun 4, 2021)

I think we're on a fast curve now away from the ICE.  
Interesting article here on the BBC.
Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think


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## GreiginFife (Jun 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			There are a few interesting options starting to appear for EVs. Lots of sums need to be done as the sticker price isn't necessarily what you end up paying, taking into account, tax, charging etc. Now more than ever, working out the running cost over the period you have the car is critical to figure out what it will actually cost you.

*As for the X-Dive. I would take a proper set of winter tyres over the X-Drive system with normal tyres.*

I used to put winters on my M3 and it would go pretty much anywhere in the snow. My mate who has a 435 with X-Drive got stuck going up the hill into our village, that I got up with no drama.
Of course having both would be the perfect solution.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree on this having tried both ways the rear-wheel was still worse. I live in the middle of nowhere with bad roads and lots of hills and this year my 340 was way more reliable than the in-law's 330d with RWD and winter tyres. Yes, they got around but it was much hairier than in my car. 
If your mate got stuck in a 435 with XD then I'm going to suggest that was more to do with the driver than the system. 

I'd personally rather have X-Drive with the additional option of winter tyres than not have it and rely solely on the tyres. Especially with the torque figures some of these EVs are spec'd to be putting out.


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## The Dog. (Jun 4, 2021)

I drove my mates Tesla two days ago for the first time.  Absolutely fantastic and I would definitely buy one.  Fastest thing I have ever driven and I include in that a Honda Fireblade and a Porsche 911 GT2.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A guy turned up at my golf club on Tuesday in a new VW ID.3 (perilously close to the BMW name). Similar size to a Golf, a good looking car. Back seat had to be flat to get his clubs in mind . Good to see slightly bigger cars being an option though. If this change is going to happen we need cars that can move a family with luggage, not just runabouts.

Price is still high, starts at £32k, but hopefully this will drop over time.
		
Click to expand...

Check out the id4 it's beautiful

Guy at work was looking at the Mustang e

None 4 wheel drive is 380 mile range 88 useable battery kw 

He lives like 100 miles from work and said would suit him perfect charge every night between shifts no stopping for fuel


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## GreiginFife (Jun 4, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I think we're on a fast curve now away from the ICE. 
Interesting article here on the BBC.
Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

Click to expand...

I don't think that article is either good or insightful. It doesn't tell us anything we don't know. Products take time to be adopted and the acceleration of adoption is, in almost all cases, increased upon affordability. EVs are no different with one glaring exception; that is that the ban will try to enforce it's acceleration. And, IMO, it won't work like that. 

Countries can say "well we're going to ban ICE vehicles from xxxx date" all they want, but that won't, in itself, drive people to EVs if they remain unaffordable. Range and charging are mere secondary considerations in the majority of cases with the cost the deciding factor and remains so with most shifts. 

The article uses a good example if it does nothing else and that's the internet. In order for the web to become mass adopted it needed two things, infrastructure and affordability. Until those were achieved it was limited in reach. Even now, there are people without internet based on those two factors; people that can access but can't afford and those that can afford but can't access (affordability and infrastructure). 

EVs are no different. Unless something, or until something, is done to make EV ownership affordable it's going to follow the same curve that we always do. A ban will not enforce uptake if the conditions above are not adequate or correct. 

That's before we get to the tertiary decisions like size (or speed) requirements. 

Before the usual suspects jump on this, I *will* be going to an EV for my next car, I consider myself fortunate that I can afford the type of car that I need (a small hatchback is of no use to me whatsoever) and at the moment it's a timing thing stopping me. Sadly, not all are in as fortunate a position until something happens to make it so, cheaper ICE will always win until then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Check out the id4 it's beautiful

Guy at work was looking at the Mustang e

None 4 wheel drive is 380 mile range 88 useable battery kw

He lives like 100 miles from work and said would suit him perfect charge every night between shifts no stopping for fuel
		
Click to expand...

The ID4 does look nice but it's £42k

The range on the Mustang sounds great. That sort of range eliminates, if genuine, removes a good chunk of the range worry and re-charging pressure


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## pauljames87 (Jun 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ID4 does look nice but it's £42k

The range on the Mustang sounds great. That sort of range eliminates, if genuine, removes a good chunk of the range worry and re-charging pressure
		
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I think leasing is seriously going to take over more and more 

I know people who always refused to lease are looking into it now


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think leasing is seriously going to take over more and more

I know people who always refused to lease are looking into it now
		
Click to expand...

I know leasing is very commonplace now, but  if we are pushing towards EV on a green agenda how does a greater churn of vehicle ownership help with the green agenda of looking to prolong the life by repairing  an item ?


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## bobmac (Jun 4, 2021)

18 months ago, Autotrader was showing the number EVs for sale was nudging 2,000
Today's number of EVs for sale

7,468


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think leasing is seriously going to take over more and more

I know people who always refused to lease are looking into it now
		
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I can certainly see that but don't forget, the lease company have to factor in the buying and second hand value of a car so price does still matter.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 4, 2021)

I pace at 0%apr quite practical and nice drive .. just a bit rich for me though


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2021)

https://insideevs.com/news/510932/charging-price-increase-uk/amp/

And here it comes, how they will start to claw back some of the costs 

Most interesting point for me was the 1000kw a month to a home limit 

So in theory home should be lower but depends on other usage etc


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## Smiffy (Jun 5, 2021)

Had to help deliver a customers car to Dartford on Thursday. No part exchange involved so I took our e2008 as the "taxi".

Absolutely brilliant. Nippy, quiet, smooth. Round trip of 118 miles, range showing 155 when I left, 60 when I returned. Cushty.

I'd buy one. No problem.


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

As the battery technology improves, it's not just cars that will benefit


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## Fade and Die (Jun 6, 2021)

Started to see these in Westminster…..




Lamppost chargers, pretty good idea.


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Started to see these in Westminster…..

View attachment 36957


Lamppost chargers, pretty good idea.
		
Click to expand...

Our local Tesco now has 2 x 7kw and 2 x 22kw chargers which are free to use.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Our local Tesco now has 2 x 7kw and 2 x 22kw chargers which are free to use.
		
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Yes plenty do but my photo was in Erasmus Street Westminster, lots of flats with no off street parking, so this kind of set-up is vital if it’s going to appeal to the masses.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes plenty do but my photo was in Erasmus Street Westminster, lots of flats with no off street parking, so this kind of set-up is vital if it’s going to appeal to the masses.
		
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There lies the issue, on street parking and charging. Looking at our village there are houses with no dedicated parking and they are on street. There is no street lighting like this either , so the principal and main benefit of electric being it’s full and ready to go falls flat. 
There needs to be a solution that allows people to charge at home without having an extension cable running out the front door or owning a dedicated car parking space. 
So we could see house prices impacted ..


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



*There needs to be a solution that allows people to charge at home* without having an extension cable running out the front door or owning a dedicated car parking space.
		
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I don't see why, you don't have a petrol pump outside your house do you?
In the future, people will charge in all sorts of places, supermarkets, golf clubs, car parks, at work, at the gym, cinema etc etc
Agreed we're not there yet but its a lot cheaper to install EV charging points than it is to build a petrol station in your local pub car park.

And once one supermarket has the unique selling point of free charging, you can bet the rest will soon follow suit.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			There lies the issue, on street parking and charging. Looking at our village there are houses with no dedicated parking and they are on street. There is no street lighting like this either , so the principal and main benefit of electric being it’s full and ready to go falls flat.
There needs to be a solution that allows people to charge at home without having an extension cable running out the front door or owning a dedicated car parking space.
So we could see house prices impacted ..
		
Click to expand...

It won't be long, cars are arriving with range of 300 plus

Garages like shell have the aim to install chargers in all their existing sites

Chargers up to 350kwh are appearing in these locations

Won be long before a trip to the petrol garage is just a trip to the charger


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I don't see why, you don't have a petrol pump outside your house do you?
In the future, people will charge in all sorts of places, supermarkets, golf clubs, car parks, at work, at the gym, cinema etc etc
Agreed we're not there yet but its a lot cheaper to install EV charging points than it is to build a petrol station in your local pub car park.

And once one supermarket has the unique selling point of free charging, you can bet the rest will soon follow suit.
		
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Free charging is like offering free drugs .. once your hooked the price will rise. 
I see the element of charging at home as a benefit… I really don’t like social interaction 🤣


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It won't be long, cars are arriving with range of 300 plus

Garages like shell have the aim to install chargers in all their existing sites

Chargers up to 350kwh are appearing in these locations

Won be long before a trip to the petrol garage is just a trip to the charger
		
Click to expand...

The problem with those ranges is they drive weight in and the focus is now on non CO2 emissions.. vehicle weight generates these. 
I think we will see battery efficiency improve massively but the required range will drop when we have a proper fast charge network which is available to all brands of vehicle .. I like that BP and Shell have realised this (just hope they aren’t burning the diesel to fuel the gent!! )


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			The problem with those ranges is they drive weight in and the focus is now on non CO2 emissions.. vehicle weight generates these.
I think we will see battery efficiency improve massively but the required range will drop when we have a proper fast charge network which is available to all brands of vehicle .. I like that BP and Shell have realised this (just hope they aren’t burning the diesel to fuel the gent!! )
		
Click to expand...

Weight will come down with tech 

Solid state batteries are in testing 

They won't be far behind 

Guy at work has the id4 something like 82kw battery that's brilliant .. proper range 

Mines 50kw and works for me


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Free charging is like offering free drugs .. once your hooked the price will rise.
		
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I'm sure it will but when you factor in all the other costs related to ICE vehicles, it's still a cheaper alternative.
So cheaper, faster, quieter, fun to drive and better for the air quality your children will breathe.

And of course, the improvements made in battery technology will spread over into other aspects of life.
A mobile phone battery that will last a week, a golf trolley that will last a month, a laptop lasting a week, power tools, etc etc.

Wouldn't it be great to have your kids/grandkids queuing for an ice cream at an electric ice cream van.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Weight will come down with tech

Solid state batteries are in testing

They won't be far behind

Guy at work has the id4 something like 82kw battery that's brilliant .. proper range

Mines 50kw and works for me
		
Click to expand...

Yes that’s got a sensible range for current situation.. but look at the total mass of the vehicle.. so curb weight then the manufacturer adds a mass for options and load carrying capacity.
I think the ID3 long range drops the 5th passenger ( not averse to getting rid of passengers myself .. they stop the fun and think they can dictate the music selection) .
The point is these weights are driving in heavier chassis components and making larger tyres a necessity. 
Your right the batteries will get lighter, but make the range demand lower by having a fast network… and then we are talking about charging cars in minutes if not seconds .. and that is the key development.
Also looking at performance, the insane button isn’t environmentally friendly nor is it really required , speeds up to 100mph and 0-60 of 7-8seconds and 50-70 overtaking times around 2-3seconds are enough for the public .. most don’t realise it but they don’t have the talent for quicker and this is just bar stool bravado promoted by the likes of Porsche and Ferrari


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure it will but when you factor in all the other costs related to ICE vehicles, it's still a cheaper alternative.
So cheaper, faster, quieter, fun to drive and better for the air quality your children will breathe.

And of course, the improvements made in battery technology will spread over into other aspects of life.
A mobile phone battery that will last a week, a golf trolley that will last a month, a laptop lasting a week, power tools, etc etc.

Wouldn't it be great to have your kids/grandkids queuing for an ice cream at an electric ice cream van.
		
Click to expand...

Currently yes .. but think how much tax the government gets currently they won’t be wanting a shortfall in that revenue.. 
Sorry for sounding like a pessimist but the system will require it’s pay off and new perceived threats will arise and cost will be driven in.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



*I'm sure it will but when you factor in all the other costs related to ICE vehicles, it's still a cheaper alternative.*
So cheaper, faster, quieter, fun to drive and better for the air quality your children will breathe.

And of course, the improvements made in battery technology will spread over into other aspects of life.
A mobile phone battery that will last a week, a golf trolley that will last a month, a laptop lasting a week, power tools, etc etc.

Wouldn't it be great to have your kids/grandkids queuing for an ice cream at an electric ice cream van.
		
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity Bob, what are all of these other related costs? 

What EV did you go for in the end?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes that’s got a sensible range for current situation.. but look at the total mass of the vehicle.. so curb weight then the manufacturer adds a mass for options and load carrying capacity.
I think the ID3 long range drops the 5th passenger ( not averse to getting rid of passengers myself .. they stop the fun and think they can dictate the music selection) .
The point is these weights are driving in heavier chassis components and making larger tyres a necessity.
Your right the batteries will get lighter, but make the range demand lower by having a fast network… and then we are talking about charging cars in minutes if not seconds .. and that is the key development.
Also looking at performance, the insane button isn’t environmentally friendly nor is it really required , speeds up to 100mph and 0-60 of 7-8seconds and 50-70 overtaking times around 2-3seconds are enough for the public .. most don’t realise it but they don’t have the talent for quicker and this is just bar stool bravado promoted by the likes of Porsche and Ferrari
		
Click to expand...

I think whilst charging speeds will come down people need to be open to change .. this electric replacement isn't for a laugh it's because the planet is screwed .. waiting a few extra mins for a fill up is a small ask for not dying for me 

Yes range may drop with Weight but the aa email me every year saying clean our your car to save weight to boost your mpg so all ranges have been affected by weight for years


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Out of curiosity Bob, what are all of these other related costs?
		
Click to expand...

I'm no mechanic but I do know servicing doesn't come cheap.
Cam belt, oil/ filter, brakes, exhaust repair/replacement, catalytic convertor replacement, hydraulic fluids, coolant system/radiators
Didn't Murph say recently a new exhaust for his car was £5,500?



GreiginFife said:



			What EV did you go for in the end?
		
Click to expand...

Are you joking, have you seen the price of them?  

But my next car will certainly be an EV, maybe something like the MG ZS


https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...ectric&postcode=ng348xf&sort=price-asc&page=1


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## Robster59 (Jun 7, 2021)

If you look at how fuel economy and emissions have changed dramatically over the last few years, the now rapid increase in the demand for electric vehicles will make research into the new technology more cost-effective, particularly as the two big drivers are range and speed of charging.  These will be the two big USP's for most people so that will what the manufacturers will be focussing on. 
For charging with my plug-in hybrid, I have subscribed to Charge Place Scotland and for £20p.a.  I get over 1500 free charge points dotted around Scotland, so if travelling and stopping anywhere that has one nearby, I can top-up my car "for free".  Helpful to have. 
Also, Scotland is offering incentives for people to put charge points at their own home and my company will also pay towards the charge point.  I haven't taken either of these options up yet as we are looking to move house but once we have moved, then I undoubtedly will take it up.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm no mechanic but I do know servicing doesn't come cheap.
Cam belt, oil/ filter, brakes, exhaust repair/replacement, catalytic convertor replacement, hydraulic fluids, coolant system/radiators
Didn't Murph say recently a new exhaust for his car was £5,500?

*Yeah, but then Murph's car is basically  a steroid infused mentalists car . Some will be quite high, others not so much. EVs are not that cheap to service either, my mates Tesla S had it's first service (brake discs are £400 EACH!) and they do still have many serviceable parts that ICE's do (track rods, suspension legs, bearings etc). His total service inc parts was £1650. Like Murph's though that's at the extreme end as not everyone has a Model S and I'm sure there are cheaper alternatives available.*

Are you joking, have you seen the price of them?  

But my next car will certainly be an EV, maybe something like the MG ZS


https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202012247381307?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&make=MG&radius=1500&include-delivery-option=on&fuel-type=Electric&postcode=ng348xf&sort=price-asc&page=1

Click to expand...

I've just registered my interest in the new i4 so that I can at least try and get myself quite high up the queue when they launch (I reckon Mar/Apr next year is realistic for one being available). If (and it's a big IF) the range is within 15% of quoted I will be fine with that. Any more variance from that then I will be a bit on the fence again. Hopefully it's not too bad though as I really, really like the look of the M50 variant.


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## Robster59 (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I've just registered my interest in the new i4 so that I can at least try and get myself quite high up the queue when they launch (I reckon Mar/Apr next year is realistic for one being available). If (and it's a big IF) the range is within 15% of quoted I will be fine with that. Any more variance from that then I will be a bit on the fence again. Hopefully it's not too bad though as I really, really like the look of the M50 variant.
		
Click to expand...

But oh my God!  That grill!


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			But oh my God!  That grill! 

Click to expand...

Don't actually mind the grille. If I don't go i4 I will probably go M4. 

Old BMW grilles were probably worse (and square) remember the late 2000's 7 series? Now that was ugly.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Don't actually mind the grille. If I don't go i4 I will probably go M4. 

Old BMW grilles were probably worse (and square) remember the late 2000's 7 series? Now that was ugly.
		
Click to expand...

The new grille looks much better in the flesh than on photos.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I've just registered my interest in the new i4 so that I can at least try and get myself quite high up the queue when they launch (I reckon Mar/Apr next year is realistic for one being available). If (and it's a big IF) the range is within 15% of quoted I will be fine with that. Any more variance from that then I will be a bit on the fence again. Hopefully it's not too bad though as I really, really like the look of the M50 variant.
		
Click to expand...

The Corsa first service is going to be £80

Brakes wear less as you use engine breaking aswell 

Model s is extreme like you said


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The Corsa first service is going to be £80

Brakes wear less as you use engine breaking aswell

Model s is extreme like you said
		
Click to expand...

All cars ICE or EV have cheap and expensive extremes. Murph's CLS AMG 63 is extreme. 
Any car driven well will wear less.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			All cars ICE or EV have cheap and expensive extremes. Murph's CLS AMG 63 is extreme.
Any car driven well will wear less.
		
Click to expand...

Prob why murphs car costs so much to run 🤣


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Any car driven well will wear less.
		
Click to expand...

But a car with less moving parts will wear.....lesser.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But a car with less moving parts will wear.....lesser.  

Click to expand...

You know how many moving parts are in any motor, right? Electric motors aren't monolithic. Electric motors can be made up of hundreds of individual components, all with a propensity to fail. 

My view is that Electric motors will supplant combustion engines and will be (eventually) cleaner to run and better for the environment. But the complexity of an electric motor will always give it component fatigue and failure just like those in a combustion engine (which, I might point out we have got pretty good at building with less traditional mechanical components than traditionally), most are, for want of a better word, electronic, anyway). 

What a traditional car will have in it's favour is that if my EGR fails, I know I just need to replace the EGR, if a sealed unit electric motor goes... Well, I'm looking at a heavier bill than that of an EGR. 

I'm not sure we have enough data (both time and volumetric) to state whether electric motors have better reliability or greater longevity over combustion. 

I WILL go electric as I believe it's the next logical evolution, but it will be a leap of faith and not fact at this point.


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

So what you're saying is, ICE cars and electric cars have the same chance to go wrong and if they do, electric cars will be more expensive to fix?


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## GreiginFife (Jun 7, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So what you're saying is, ICE cars and electric cars have the same chance to go wrong and if they do, electric cars will be more expensive to fix?
		
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying that all cars will have a propensity to go wrong and some will be cheaper to fix whether they are EV or ICE. It is disingenuous to say that EVs will be cheaper to fix without caveats.

Its also too early to say conclusively that EVs have higher or lower reliability and that much is faith not fact.

What I would take a good stab at though, is that should a sealed electric motor develop a fault it will be higher cost to fix than a component fault in, maybe 8/10 cases (common component faults).

What we don't know yet is, by relative comparison, how likely this is.

I will go electric because I thinks its both inevitable and the right thing to do. But I won't make the move naively believing that it will be cheaper in all aspects.


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## Piece (Jun 9, 2021)

Rimac Nevera...


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## BiMGuy (Jun 9, 2021)

Piece said:



			Rimac Nevera...







Click to expand...

Impressive, but I'd still take the prancing horse.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Prob why murphs car costs so much to run 🤣
		
Click to expand...

pitty Murph is no longer on here to counter that! Read back and you can see the very great value he has had out of his cars


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## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			pitty Murph is no longer on here to counter that! Read back and you can see the very great value he has had out of his cars
		
Click to expand...

Oh didn't realise he was gone


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## BiMGuy (Jun 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			pitty Murph is no longer on here to counter that! Read back and you can see the very great value he has had out of his cars
		
Click to expand...

I had what I consider good value from the two M3's I've had. I thoroughly enjoyed just about every mile I drove them. 

Most people would consider them extremely expensive to run with 18mpg and the servicing costs.

I'm not due another car for a couple years but the prospect of an M3 estate has me already thinking about one. It will be a difficult decision whether to have one last hurrah with an ICE car or go electric.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829

One way of looking at it..

I guess this is what happened during lockdown 1.. I saw a lot of garages closed as passing business didn't make it viable to open 

Mainly Tesco and Asda were the places that could afford to remain open outsider the big boys


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## Smiffy (Jun 11, 2021)

History repeats itself. Imagine how the pony and trap owners felt when the internal combustion engine came along. It'll never take off, blah, blah, blah.....🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2021)

This is what's going  to fuel (pardon the pun) the change to electric 
Not so much that people necessarily want to go electric, it's going to get harder to find petrol stations to fill your car up.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			History repeats itself. Imagine how the pony and trap owners felt when the internal combustion engine came along. It'll never take off, blah, blah, blah.....🤔🤔🤔🤔
		
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Those Wright brothers .. will never get anywhere


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Cant find an electric car at a price that appeals currently, so buying what I expect/hope will be my last ICE car


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## hovis (Jun 12, 2021)

Just switched energy tarrif and it now costs £3:20 to charge the car to 300 miles.   That's providing the charge is between 12.30 and 4.30am.


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2021)

fundy said:



			Cant find an electric car at a price that appeals currently, so buying what I expect/hope will be my last ICE car
		
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The only one I think you'll find in the lower price range is possibly a Nissan Leaf but the range was crap on the early ones.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2021)

https://www.gridserve.com/2021/04/3...ks-largest-high-power-motorway-charging-site/

fantastic news (they have now bought econcity a few days ago)

all the motoway services in Uk (i believe) are being upgraded to new higher speed chargers with more chargers available 

there is a list on google maps not sure how to share thay shows how many are left to do and how many are done.. they have done a lot!!

100kwh chargers as standard .... stop for a wee / coffee / food .. 20 mins on the charger and you have added more than enough miles to crack on...

also these chargers are contactless payment rather than need an app ... so just use your debit card 

its a step in the right direction


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.gridserve.com/2021/04/3...ks-largest-high-power-motorway-charging-site/

fantastic news (they have now bought econcity a few days ago)

all the motoway services in Uk (i believe) are being upgraded to new higher speed chargers with more chargers available

there is a list on google maps not sure how to share thay shows how many are left to do and how many are done.. they have done a lot!!

100kwh chargers as standard .... stop for a wee / coffee / food .. 20 mins on the charger and you have added more than enough miles to crack on...

also these chargers are contactless payment rather than need an app ... so just use your debit card

its a step in the right direction
		
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Totally agree. As a motorist we need to see multiple chargers as we drive into places in order to feel comfortable that one is available. At the moment that is not the case, 2 or 3 doesn't count at a motorway services as that is totally insufficient. Equally, the idea of contactless payment is better. Having to have multiple apps to pay for charging is also off putting so that removes that issue. Now repeat this across the network.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally agree. As a motorist we need to see multiple chargers as we drive into places in order to feel comfortable that one is available. At the moment that is not the case, 2 or 3 doesn't count at a motorway services as that is totally insufficient. Equally, the idea of contactless payment is better. Having to have multiple apps to pay for charging is also off putting so that removes that issue. Now repeat this across the network.
		
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I know grideserve will do all the motorway services 

BP and shell putting them in on their forecourts 

At least companies are ramping up 

Grideserve chargers are 30p per kWh aswell which isn't too expensive for charging on go .. cheaper than petrol but not as cheap as doing at home


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## bobmac (Jun 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Equally, the idea of contactless payment is better. Having to have multiple apps to pay for charging is also off putting so that removes that issue. Now repeat this across the network.
		
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''All newly installed rapid or higher-powered electric car charging points should be fitted with contactless bank card readers from Spring 2020, the Government has said.''

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...oints-to-accept-contactless-payment-next-year


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## road2ruin (Jun 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I had what I consider good value from the two M3's I've had. I thoroughly enjoyed just about every mile I drove them.

Most people would consider them extremely expensive to run with 18mpg and the servicing costs.

I'm not due another car for a couple years but the prospect of an M3 estate has me already thinking about one. It will be a difficult decision whether to have one last hurrah with an ICE car or go electric.
		
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I had a similar decision to make, decided to go with the Audi S3 Avant and then got it remapped. It's a decent family car but doesn't half shift although I can physically see the petrol guage moving on some occasions. I think this was probably my last 'silly' car and will probably look at electric in 3 years or so when it's time to change again. Hoping by that point the prices will have moved a bit as nothing on the market excites me at the moment....or at least nothing that's within budget!!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I had a similar decision to make, decided to go with the Audi S3 Avant and then got it remapped. It's a decent family car but doesn't half shift although I can physically see the petrol guage moving on some occasions. I think this was probably my last 'silly' car and will probably look at electric in 3 years or so when it's time to change again. Hoping by that point the prices will have moved a bit as nothing on the market excites me at the moment....or at least nothing that's within budget!!
		
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In 3 and half years when the Corsa is up for renewal I want to lease a bigger electric . Maybe the id4 or similar .. just so it's bigger battery and bigger for me to take the girls out .. when they all out of car seats can bin off the Alhambra (this is 11 years time tho) and then I want both electric .. medium size .. or maybe one little one large

Need one that fits the family and one for me for work 

I watched interesting video , a company that replaces Batteries in old leafs (gen 1) 

Takes 24kw ones that are 9 years old and puts 40kw ones that have been out of leafs that have been in accidents but batteries are fine 

Proper recycling.. now I was amazed until the cost .. 8k .. 13k for 62kw battery .. but I guess it will come down with time .. however 11 year old leaf from the presenter being upgraded to 40kw .. beats constant buying new I guess 

5 hour job by sounds .. can keep your old battery if for example you want to use for battery storage but if not they will find a use .. be it selling the cells to hobbiests , battery storage on their garage


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## Robster59 (Jun 16, 2021)

I've just had my first long journey in my Škoda Superb plug-in hybrid.  This was a trip from Glasgow down to Stoke.  I ran the car in hybrid mode but by the time I got to the hotel the batteries were discharged.  There was nowhere on my journey where I stopped for any length of time that had a charging point I could use.  I didn't have the time to wait to get them charged full at a service station and so basically ran on petrol for the journey home.  I had the car set up to recharge or top up the batteries during the journey which helped, but the reality is that for myself as a business driver I can't afford to spend a few hours charging the car on the motorway.  Somewhere I can overnight charge would be the benefit but there was nowhere near the hotel I could use.  Nor at the customer.  All the charge points had a different fitting (that's another gripe.  Why can the manufacturers not agree on a standard fitting!? ).  The Gretna services on the M74 have a reasonable number of chargers and it was interesting to see all the Tesla ones were all fully occupied but only one of the other (non-Tesla) chargers was in use.
On the positive side, for the whole journey I still got over 50mpg which for a 1.4 litre petrol turbo lugging around a Škoda Superb is pretty good.  The batteries were never completely flat and kicked in when slow speed manoeuvring.  But we're still a way away from these for use as business commuters.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've just had my first long journey in my Škoda Superb plug-in hybrid.  This was a trip from Glasgow down to Stoke.  I ran the car in hybrid mode but by the time I got to the hotel the batteries were discharged.  There was nowhere on my journey where I stopped for any length of time that had a charging point I could use.  I didn't have the time to wait to get them charged full at a service station and so basically ran on petrol for the journey home.  I had the car set up to recharge or top up the batteries during the journey which helped, but the reality is that for myself as a business driver I can't afford to spend a few hours charging the car on the motorway.  Somewhere I can overnight charge would be the benefit but there was nowhere near the hotel I could use.  Nor at the customer.  All the charge points had a different fitting (that's another gripe.  Why can the manufacturers not agree on a standard fitting!? ).  The Gretna services on the M74 have a reasonable number of chargers and it was interesting to see all the Tesla ones were all fully occupied but only one of the other (non-Tesla) chargers was in use.
On the positive side, for the whole journey I still got over 50mpg which for a 1.4 litre petrol turbo lugging around a Škoda Superb is pretty good.  The batteries were never completely flat and kicked in when slow speed manoeuvring.  But we're still a way away from these for use as business commuters.
		
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Really interesting post, thank you. in terms of that engine did it feel okay in that car? (I have the 2.0d Superb) It's a big chunk of metal and my old school, and possibly outdated, way of thinking is that a 1.4 petrol is going to either be sounding like hard work or will be gutless when overtaking is required.


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## Robster59 (Jun 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Really interesting post, thank you. in terms of that engine did it feel okay in that car? (I have the 2.0d Superb) It's a big chunk of metal and my old school, and possibly outdated, way of thinking is that a 1.4 petrol is going to either be sounding like hard work or will be gutless when overtaking is required.
		
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I'll be honest, I thought the same thing as well, but in reality it pulled pretty well on the motorway and held 70(ish)mph with no problem.  The power is basically the same as the 2.0 litre turbo diesel (corca 150bhp) but you have the advantage that if you need it, the electric motor backs it up for up to 218bhp. Add in the fact it is an auto and the kickdown also helps the acceleration.  My previous car was the 2.0d and this doesn't feel like a downgrade.  I haven't had a chance to test it out yet for towing but for general use, it's absolutely fine.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've just had my first long journey in my Škoda Superb plug-in hybrid.  This was a trip from Glasgow down to Stoke.  I ran the car in hybrid mode but by the time I got to the hotel the batteries were discharged.  There was nowhere on my journey where I stopped for any length of time that had a charging point I could use.  I didn't have the time to wait to get them charged full at a service station and so basically ran on petrol for the journey home.  I had the car set up to recharge or top up the batteries during the journey which helped, but the reality is that for myself as a business driver I can't afford to spend a few hours charging the car on the motorway.  Somewhere I can overnight charge would be the benefit but there was nowhere near the hotel I could use.  Nor at the customer.  All the charge points had a different fitting (that's another gripe.  Why can the manufacturers not agree on a standard fitting!? ).  The Gretna services on the M74 have a reasonable number of chargers and it was interesting to see all the Tesla ones were all fully occupied but only one of the other (non-Tesla) chargers was in use.
On the positive side, for the whole journey I still got over 50mpg which for a 1.4 litre petrol turbo lugging around a Škoda Superb is pretty good.  The batteries were never completely flat and kicked in when slow speed manoeuvring.  But we're still a way away from these for use as business commuters.
		
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Did you drive on electric only initially?
If so then you need to change the strategy, you may need to have zero emissions electric only at some point in your journey. I think the range on electric only is around 30miles. I suggest you use the hybrid system to support the ICE unit - acceleration etc and scavenge on braking and “sailing “ (which is free rolling to you and I under low regen), it also looks after the parasitic functions taking the draw from the ICE giving you the higher mpg figures. 
Completely get the plug stuff .. I had this discussion back in 2016 when developing I Pace. They wanted to put the cable in the spare wheel well, and I said you had an opportunity to lobby the government to fix all plug sockets and save the customers carrying around bulky cables … was told I was mad .. pretty much summed up the Warwickshire cottage industry and it’s lack of forward thinking


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2021)

That's where Tesla are so far ahead on range and charging infrastructure.
Everybody else is still downloading multiple apps for all the different charging companies and arguing between CHAdeMO or CCS plugs (think VHS and BETAMAX).
If you are regularly driving driving over 200 miles a day, stick with your ICE car for the time being until things catch up. Or get a Tesla


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## Robster59 (Jun 16, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Did you drive on electric only initially?
If so then you need to change the strategy, you may need to have zero emissions electric only at some point in your journey. I think the range on electric only is around 30miles. I suggest you use the hybrid system to support the ICE unit - acceleration etc and scavenge on braking and “sailing “ (which is free rolling to you and I under low regen), it also looks after the parasitic functions taking the draw from the ICE giving you the higher mpg figures.
Completely get the plug stuff .. I had this discussion back in 2016 when developing I Pace. They wanted to put the cable in the spare wheel well, and I said you had an opportunity to lobby the government to fix all plug sockets and save the customers carrying around bulky cables … was told I was mad .. pretty much summed up the Warwickshire cottage industry and it’s lack of forward thinking
		
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Thanks for the advice.  I had it set on hybrid right from the start with auto-recharging.  I also had the gearbox in "B" mode to assist the charging further. You are correct in that it only has a range of circa 30 miles and so I made sure I was on hybrid all the time.  In fairness, it was showing some charge in the car batteries for most of the journey although you could see the car was using a bit of battery as well as the engine at times.  If you know the Superb, the rev counter is quite small and sits inside the battery usage dial so you can see how the battery is being used and when it is being charged and discharged.


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## Robster59 (Jun 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			That's where Tesla are so far ahead on range and charging infrastructure.
Everybody else is still downloading multiple apps for all the different charging companies and arguing between CHAdeMO or CCS plugs (think VHS and BETAMAX).
If you are regularly driving driving over 200 miles a day, stick with your ICE car for the time being until things catch up. Or get a Tesla  

Click to expand...

It's a company car and I'm afraid Tesla's aren't on the list yet .  I went for the hybrid as it meant I was paying so much less personal tax.  Compared to the Superb 2.0 diesel I pay £2.7k per year less.  Of the vehicles available, the Superb iV SE Technology was a no-brainer.  I could have had a BMW 330e SE Pro but the boot is really compromised by the batteries, and I need the boot space for my work (and my golf clubs).


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've just had my first long journey in my Škoda Superb plug-in hybrid.  This was a trip from Glasgow down to Stoke.  I ran the car in hybrid mode but by the time I got to the hotel the batteries were discharged.  There was nowhere on my journey where I stopped for any length of time that had a charging point I could use.  I didn't have the time to wait to get them charged full at a service station and so basically ran on petrol for the journey home.  I had the car set up to recharge or top up the batteries during the journey which helped, but the reality is that for myself as a business driver I can't afford to spend a few hours charging the car on the motorway.  Somewhere I can overnight charge would be the benefit but there was nowhere near the hotel I could use.  Nor at the customer.  All the charge points had a different fitting (that's another gripe.  Why can the manufacturers not agree on a standard fitting!? ).  The Gretna services on the M74 have a reasonable number of chargers and it was interesting to see all the Tesla ones were all fully occupied but only one of the other (non-Tesla) chargers was in use.
On the positive side, for the whole journey I still got over 50mpg which for a 1.4 litre petrol turbo lugging around a Škoda Superb is pretty good.  The batteries were never completely flat and kicked in when slow speed manoeuvring.  But we're still a way away from these for use as business commuters.
		
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They are agreeing on a standard charger in Europe now, the Nissan's etc next time round will have CCS rather than chademo .. but these are still available

Type 2 chargers fit in CCS ports and CCS goes over the top so to speak so becomes one combined port in new cars

It's hard to run a plug in hybrid in pure electric their not designed for the distance but short trips work

The new chargers have tap to pay and choice of charger which is good

Grideserve are upgrading the motorway network




Green is upgraded, grey is to be done .. all motorway services are being done ✅


I watched a video yesterday where they drove 6 EV cars from Christchurch to Braintree (grideserve massive centre) 160 miles 

Telsa model 3 long range got there and had enough to get back 

Hyundai and niro took 16 mins to get enough charge to get back 

I can link the video it's long tho


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## BiMGuy (Jun 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I had a similar decision to make, decided to go with the Audi S3 Avant and then got it remapped. It's a decent family car but doesn't half shift although I can physically see the petrol guage moving on some occasions. I think this was probably my last 'silly' car and will probably look at electric in 3 years or so when it's time to change again. Hoping by that point the prices will have moved a bit as nothing on the market excites me at the moment....or at least nothing that's within budget!!
		
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I opted for a 535d this time. As I was fed up of visiting petrol stations and my job involves doing some 4/500 mile round trips in a day. So I wanted something with enough shove that would also be able to do it without filling up more then once.


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## hovis (Jun 17, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've just had my first long journey in my Škoda Superb plug-in hybrid.  This was a trip from Glasgow down to Stoke.  I ran the car in hybrid mode but by the time I got to the hotel the batteries were discharged.  There was nowhere on my journey where I stopped for any length of time that had a charging point I could use.  I didn't have the time to wait to get them charged full at a service station and so basically ran on petrol for the journey home.  I had the car set up to recharge or top up the batteries during the journey which helped, but the reality is that for myself as a business driver I can't afford to spend a few hours charging the car on the motorway.  Somewhere I can overnight charge would be the benefit but there was nowhere near the hotel I could use.  Nor at the customer.  All the charge points had a different fitting (that's another gripe.  Why can the manufacturers not agree on a standard fitting!? ).  The Gretna services on the M74 have a reasonable number of chargers and it was interesting to see all the Tesla ones were all fully occupied but only one of the other (non-Tesla) chargers was in use.
On the positive side, for the whole journey I still got over 50mpg which for a 1.4 litre petrol turbo lugging around a Škoda Superb is pretty good.  The batteries were never completely flat and kicked in when slow speed manoeuvring.  But we're still a way away from these for use as business commuters.
		
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First of all you have a plug in hybrid with a range of about 35 miles.  That's not designed for the motorway and not what I would qualify as an electric car.  
Why couldn't you use the charging point? .  I find it hard to believe you couldn't find one.  Instavolt have them at alot of mcdonald's and would charge your 35 mile battery in 10 minutes. Why do you think it would take a couple of hours? .  It takes 50 minutes to put 280 miles into my Car on a rapid charger. 
I travel from Lichfield to Newcastle on regular occasions and find charging no problem at all.


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## hovis (Jun 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			That's where Tesla are so far ahead on range and charging infrastructure.
Everybody else is still downloading multiple apps for all the different charging companies and arguing between CHAdeMO or CCS plugs (think VHS and BETAMAX).
If you are regularly driving driving over 200 miles a day, stick with your ICE car for the time being until things catch up. Or get a Tesla  

Click to expand...

My car has a 300 mile range.  Things are caught up.  People just moan because when they want some electric a plug doesn't magic itself instantly.  If you're going on a long journey you just need to plan.   
I drive to Newcastle from Lichfield and stop at a mcdonald's Sheffield on the way back for a 100 mile top up that takes about 20/25 minutes.  No apps just bleep a bank card


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## Robster59 (Jun 17, 2021)

hovis said:



			First of all you have a plug in hybrid with a range of about 35 miles.  That's not designed for the motorway and not what I would qualify as an electric car.
Why couldn't you use the charging point? .  I find it hard to believe you couldn't find one.  Instavolt have them at alot of mcdonald's and would charge your 35 mile battery in 10 minutes. Why do you think it would take a couple of hours? .  It takes 50 minutes to put 280 miles into my Car on a rapid charger.
I travel from Lichfield to Newcastle on regular occasions and find charging no problem at all.
		
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What I said was that there were no charging points near the hotel that I was staying at (at least any that were working).  And I did a search.  I also said there were charging points at the services that I stopped off at.  I say it would take hours to charge my car as that is what Škoda have told me.  The maximum charging rate is 3.6kW so it doesn't look like it will take the fast charging. 
If you read everything I put into my posts, you will realise that I got the hybrid because it is a company car and because of the considerable savings on the amount I pay on tax against an ICE equivalent.  No electric vehicles were available as an option.  
Also, it is most certainly a motorway car.  @Lord Tyrion asked me that very question and I answered by saying that it actually performed the task very well indeed.  I was still able to get 50+ mpg and with no drop-off in acceleration.  I never said it was an electric car.  I have always pointed out it was a hybrid, but I believed it still had some relevance to the discussion.  I also believe that PHEV vehicles are a stop-gap but at this moment in time, for me, it was the best option.  It's great around town as I run it on battery and most days I can get around on the batteries alone.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 17, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			What I said was that there were no charging points near the hotel that I was staying at (at least any that were working).  And I did a search.  I also said there were charging points at the services that I stopped off at.  I say it would take hours to charge my car as that is what Škoda have told me.  The maximum charging rate is 3.6kW so it doesn't look like it will take the fast charging.
If you read everything I put into my posts, you will realise that I got the hybrid because it is a company car and because of the considerable savings on the amount I pay on tax against an ICE equivalent.  No electric vehicles were available as an option. 
Also, it is most certainly a motorway car.  @Lord Tyrion asked me that very question and I answered by saying that it actually performed the task very well indeed.  I was still able to get 50+ mpg and with no drop-off in acceleration.  I never said it was an electric car.  I have always pointed out it was a hybrid, but I believed it still had some relevance to the discussion.  I also believe that PHEV vehicles are a stop-gap but at this moment in time, for me, it was the best option.  It's great around town as I run it on battery and most days I can get around on the batteries alone.
		
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I don't see phev as a stop gap
I see them as a tax dodge by companies 

If the batteries aren't charged up the cars are less eco than petrol cars .. and people don't always charge them but get the tax break


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## Robster59 (Jun 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't see phev as a stop gap
I see them as a tax dodge by companies

If the batteries aren't charged up the cars are less eco than petrol cars .. and people don't always charge them but get the tax break
		
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I can't argue with any of those points. 
It makes a nightmare trying to choose your company car though.
However, I am quite fastidious about charging up my car.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 17, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I can't argue with any of those points. 
It makes a nightmare trying to choose your company car though.
However, I am quite fastidious about charging up my car.
		
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If used correctly they are great 

Tbh I could get away with one for the big car as we only go short distance so could run on the battery all time 

I do love my electric though 

I'm really toying with driving down to Southampton and back to see my mate but then it's a golf day .. so the more space in Alhambra is appealing .. spread out very comfortable


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## harpo_72 (Jun 18, 2021)

I was weighing up the options today, Tesla 3 looked affordable, and I thought the 270 mile range one would be okay. However the charging locations are pretty concentrated in central England and not distributed to the south west and east … So also looked at the Ford in long range but not sure what the speed is on the charge .. need to have the accountant to also feedback to do it as well ☹️


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## bobmac (Jun 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I was weighing up the options today, Tesla 3 looked affordable, and I thought the 270 mile range one would be okay. However the charging locations are pretty concentrated in central England and not distributed to the south west and east … So also looked at the Ford in long range but not sure what the speed is on the charge .. need to have the accountant to also feedback to do it as well ☹️
		
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You do know you can charge your Tesla at normal charging points using an adaptor?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I was weighing up the options today, Tesla 3 looked affordable, and I thought the 270 mile range one would be okay. However the charging locations are pretty concentrated in central England and not distributed to the south west and east … So also looked at the Ford in long range but not sure what the speed is on the charge .. need to have the accountant to also feedback to do it as well ☹️
		
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You can charge from normal ones like at BP charges grid serve at the normal motorway services


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

Loving the new Skoda .. £31k starting price which is decent for car of its size 

Once I add my options and go for the bigger battery , comfort packs, few extra bits to make it a great car for the kids when their older it goes to 45k (my choice tho like do I need the extras ? No I just want them)

Aiming to purchase something like that when the Corsa lease is up as I'm so impressed with it. Run the Alhambra into the ground as the bigger family car and then when that goes lease a small electric car 

The 82kw battery on the longer range is 350 range which is more than enough. Upgrade the DC charger to 125kw rather than 50kw then really unlock some long range with massive boot


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## harpo_72 (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 37128

Loving the new Skoda .. £31k starting price which is decent for car of its size

Once I add my options and go for the bigger battery , comfort packs, few extra bits to make it a great car for the kids when their older it goes to 45k (my choice tho like do I need the extras ? No I just want them)

Aiming to purchase something like that when the Corsa lease is up as I'm so impressed with it. Run the Alhambra into the ground as the bigger family car and then when that goes lease a small electric car

The 82kw battery on the longer range is 350 range which is more than enough. Upgrade the DC charger to 125kw rather than 50kw then really unlock some long range with massive boot
		
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That’s the way I optioned it up as well. But it’s a huge car. I think possibly too big for my small family of 3. The boy is getting taller but I cannot see him being over 6ft for another 5 years. 
I like the ioniq 5 but they are not available yet. Also the Ford Mach E , which might be the best compromise.. need to read up on the charging speeds


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s the way I optioned it up as well. But it’s a huge car. I think possibly too big for my small family of 3. The boy is getting taller but I cannot see him being over 6ft for another 5 years.
I like the ioniq 5 but they are not available yet. Also the Ford Mach E , which might be the best compromise.. need to read up on the charging speeds
		
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What about the Kia niro electric? Or it's twin the hyandai Kona? Lovely cars 

Yeah maybe bit big, we are a 5 so will need that space


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## harpo_72 (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What about the Kia niro electric? Or it's twin the hyandai Kona? Lovely cars

Yeah maybe bit big, we are a 5 so will need that space
		
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The Niro looks to be the most practical.. but lacks pizzazz , I will look at it though. 
I like the French offerings but the ranges are just a little low when you look at winter degradation


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 37128

Loving the new Skoda .. £31k starting price which is decent for car of its size

Once I add my options and go for the bigger battery , comfort packs, few extra bits to make it a great car for the kids when their older it goes to 45k (my choice tho like do I need the extras ? No I just want them)

Aiming to purchase something like that when the Corsa lease is up as I'm so impressed with it. Run the Alhambra into the ground as the bigger family car and then when that goes lease a small electric car

The 82kw battery on the longer range is 350 range which is more than enough. Upgrade the DC charger to 125kw rather than 50kw then really unlock some long range with massive boot
		
Click to expand...

What Car test drove it. Loved it but found the real range to be 225 miles. They estimated in winter it would likely be 185 miles. Okay but still not great.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What Car test drove it. Loved it but found the real range to be 225 miles. They estimated in winter it would likely be 185 miles. Okay but still not great.
		
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That's the smaller battery the larger battery would be a bit higher .. I'd say over 200 in winter which is fine for me

With climate change going to be baking anyways lol


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## bobmac (Jun 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s the way I optioned it up as well. But it’s a huge car. I think possibly too big for my small family of 3. The boy is getting taller but I cannot see him being over 6ft for another 5 years.
I like the ioniq 5 but they are not available yet. Also the Ford Mach E , which might be the best compromise.. need to read up on the charging speeds
		
Click to expand...

If you're looking for something smaller.......they don't get much smaller or cheaper. @£3,400


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's the smaller battery the larger battery would be a bit higher .. I'd say over 200 in winter which is fine for me

With climate change going to be baking anyways lol
		
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Hope you're right about the bigger battery. Car looks excellent.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			The Niro looks to be the most practical.. but lacks pizzazz , I will look at it though.
I like the French offerings but the ranges are just a little low when you look at winter degradation
		
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Yes that put me off the leaf as for example my Corsa (which is a 208) is 50kw battery .. and that's about ok .. the 40kw leaf was just too small for me personally 

62kw leaf yes please


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hope you're right about the bigger battery. Car looks excellent.
		
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It's claimed range is 333 off a full battery.  80% of that is 260 so that's with the battery 80% full which is what I run on a normal day to day  that's decent but take down to say 240 for argument sake it not being a perfect day .. off 80% still 

I'd say defo 200 plus off 100% in winter 

When I specced it up I put £1000 option think it was for a heat pump for the battery that got the battery to correct heat all time and prolonged life (as I am planning to own looking at that) so should get better milage 

Cost of cells is dropping so battery replacement is becoming a real possibility so if people keep these cars longer they can replace their battery after say 15 years would be less waste but appreciate people like changing cars 

Times are coming tho


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## harpo_72 (Jun 19, 2021)

Just looking at the PSA groups offerings and they need to improve the range and efficiency. I don’t stop when I drive, I press on and some of my journeys are in excess of 180miles .. so thinking about it I want a minimum degraded mileage of 240miles.


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## Captainron (Jun 19, 2021)

My wife went away with her cousin on Spa break to The Vineyard near Newbury. I dropped her at Northampton services as the cousin was driving. Cousin rocks up in an Audi eTron Quattro Sportback. Lovely looking car. So we get chatting about how it’s going. 

She panics about the range constantly. The advertised range is a bunch of crap according to her. Every time she pulls in somewhere she has to hook it up. 
Traffic is a killer. Range plummets because you have he aircon, radio, lights etc on. She hates it


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 19, 2021)

Captainron said:



			My wife went away with her cousin on Spa break to The Vineyard near Newbury. I dropped her at Northampton services as the cousin was driving. Cousin rocks up in an Audi eTron Quattro Sportback. Lovely looking car. So we get chatting about how it’s going.

She panics about the range constantly. The advertised range is a bunch of crap according to her. Every time she pulls in somewhere she has to hook it up.
Traffic is a killer. Range plummets because you have he aircon, radio, lights etc on. She hates it
		
Click to expand...

Not familiar with that model, but generally urban traffic is what EV’s were designed for, if you are using the B setting the battery is constantly getting recharged by braking and lifting off the accelerator.

In London for every 10 miles I’m travelling I’m only using 3 or 4 miles of range.

Doing 80 on the Mway will drain it quickly, but hovering around 60 gives you much better range


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## Captainron (Jun 19, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not familiar with that model, but generally urban traffic is what EV’s were designed for, if you are using the B setting the battery is constantly getting recharged by braking and lifting off the accelerator.

In London for every 10 miles I’m travelling I’m only using 3 or 4 miles of range.

Doing 80 on the Mway will drain it quickly, but hovering around 60 gives you much better range
		
Click to expand...

If you have to drive at 60 then it’s not worth the effort.  Rather wait until they work properly.
I have a hybrid now and it’s rubbish. The battery has taken so much of the boot space.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

Captainron said:



			My wife went away with her cousin on Spa break to The Vineyard near Newbury. I dropped her at Northampton services as the cousin was driving. Cousin rocks up in an Audi eTron Quattro Sportback. Lovely looking car. So we get chatting about how it’s going.

She panics about the range constantly. The advertised range is a bunch of crap according to her. Every time she pulls in somewhere she has to hook it up.
Traffic is a killer. Range plummets because you have he aircon, radio, lights etc on. She hates it
		
Click to expand...

The "range" metre is rubbish and should be completely ignored .. look at the miles per kwh to get your true usage 

When I'm stuck in traffic it rockets up to 5 mpkwh .. from 4 driving 

I drove home from work it took hour longer than normal and I had to drive 10 miles out my way on the M25 instead of A13 so faster road as A13 is 50

I used 2% extra battery 

Had heated seats on


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## Robster59 (Jun 19, 2021)

Captainron said:



			If you have to drive at 60 then it’s not worth the effort.  Rather wait until they work properly.
I have a hybrid now and it’s rubbish. The battery has taken so much of the boot space.
		
Click to expand...

Which hybrid do you have?  I went for the Skoda Superb.  It has a massive boot as standard and whilst it's definitely smaller it's still a decent size even after the batteries take up some of the space. I had the option of the BMW 3 Series but the loss of boot space on that was ridiculous.


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## Captainron (Jun 20, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Which hybrid do you have?  I went for the Skoda Superb.  It has a massive boot as standard and whilst it's definitely smaller it's still a decent size even after the batteries take up some of the space. I had the option of the BMW 3 Series but the loss of boot space on that was ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

Superb. The boot is massively disappointing


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## Robster59 (Jun 20, 2021)

Sorry to hear that.  I'm very happy with mine.  The boot is smaller I agree but still bigger than most.


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## Smiffy (Jun 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In London for every 10 miles I’m travelling I’m only using 3 or 4 miles of range.
		
Click to expand...

Just pootling around Bexhill for the last four or five days in my e2008 and my range has not dropped from 180.
Cushty


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## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2021)

https://ev-database.uk
I found this might be helpful to anyone else interested


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## PNWokingham (Jun 24, 2021)

Nice! But  V6 in a Ferrari, and McLarren doing the same, with AMG also downsizing the C63 from 8 to 4 in the new model! The world of exotic and interesting is on its last legs as we inch towards the noiseless and passionless battery world

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-ferrari-296-gtb-819bhp-phev-brings-back-v6-power


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## harpo_72 (Jun 24, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Nice! But  V6 in a Ferrari, and McLarren doing the same, with AMG also downsizing the C63 from 8 to 4 in the new model! The world of exotic and interesting is on its last legs as we inch towards the noiseless and passionless battery world

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-ferrari-296-gtb-819bhp-phev-brings-back-v6-power

Click to expand...

Yeah I loved the V8 m3s and C63 and RS8 … burning petrol with an awesome soundtrack


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## bobmac (Jun 28, 2021)




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## Jamesbrown (Jun 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



View attachment 37279

Click to expand...

Hopefully ready for 2023 when I’m ready for new one. Saying that who knows what else is round the corner plus I’ll have a bigger budget. 
Personally I’m enjoying my introduction to electric cars with my e208.


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## bobmac (Jun 28, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Hopefully ready for 2023 when I’m ready for new one. Saying that *who knows what else is round the corner* plus I’ll have a bigger budget.
Personally I’m enjoying my introduction to electric cars with my e208.
		
Click to expand...

Watch out for Toyota and their solid state batteries


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## Robster59 (Jun 29, 2021)

Just adding this for information in case anyone has a similar issue.  

As a company car, I can claim back the charging of the electric car as part of my expenses.  To do that I have to show how much it has charged in kWh in the month.  This has presented me with a number of problems.

This information is not available by the panel in the car or via the My Škoda app
If I had a dedicated home charging point, that should tell me.  The problem is we are planning to move house, so there is no point in putting a home charger in at the moment.
I am therefore charging off a 3-pin plug, which by definition does not have automatic energy monitoring.
Anyway, I've come to an agreed solution with my company.  I am buying a Smart Plug with Energy Monitoring (TP-Link Kasa KP115) which the company has said that they will accept a screen print for the monthly consumption from the app.  That way I can claim for the charging of my car.  

Just in case anyone is in same boat, this seemed like the quickest and easiest fix.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 29, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Hopefully ready for 2023 when I’m ready for new one. Saying that who knows what else is round the corner plus I’ll have a bigger budget.
Personally I’m enjoying my introduction to electric cars with my e208.
		
Click to expand...

Have you had the update yet? My Corsa went in today for the ecu update (first year service they doing it together) update failed takes 3 hours so staying in to try again tomorrow

When it's done it suppose to improve the range prediction and the change the DC charging profile so it can charge faster for longer at the road side


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Have you had the update yet? My Corsa went in today for the ecu update (first year service they doing it together) update failed takes 3 hours so staying in to try again tomorrow

When it's done it suppose to improve the range prediction and the change the DC charging profile so it can charge faster for longer at the road side
		
Click to expand...

Had no notification for an update and wouldn’t be sure if I got notified with it being through work and not ready for a service yet. Only done 5500 miles so far. 
Range prediction seems fine to me but I won’t take it in early for something so minor.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 29, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Had no notification for an update and wouldn’t be sure if I got notified with it being through work and not ready for a service yet. Only done 5500 miles so far.
Range prediction seems fine to me but I won’t take it in early for something so minor.
		
Click to expand...

Their not recalling / notifying you can call and ask but best to wait until next service 

It's better prediction as goes down in 1 mile increment rather than 10 

The charging on DC is apparently very good as changes the programming 

Oh and how can I forget regen brakes become available from 100% not 95


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Their not recalling / notifying you can call and ask but best to wait until next service 

It's better prediction as goes down in 1 mile increment rather than 10 

The charging on DC is apparently very good as changes the programming 

Oh and how can I forget regen brakes become available from 100% not 95
		
Click to expand...

My increments don’t go down in 10 but regen from a 100% sounds a dream. It catches me out as I use B mode instead of the pedal! 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Jun 29, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			My increments don’t go down in 10 but regen from a 100% sounds a dream. It catches me out as I use B mode instead of the pedal! 🤣
		
Click to expand...

I think it also brings unlocking from just having the key in your pocket without pressing aswell proximity locking


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think it also brings unlocking from just having the key in your pocket without pressing aswell proximity locking
		
Click to expand...

I have that anyway and it makes a noise that I’m sure irates the neighbours the strange times I work, but my missus corsa could do with that as it doesn’t have it.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 29, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I have that anyway and it makes a noise that I’m sure irates the neighbours the strange times I work, but my missus corsa could do with that as it doesn’t have it.
		
Click to expand...

You may already have the update if you have that feature


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## karenburton1305 (Jul 1, 2021)

Well I know the UK government are looking to have all cars electrical in the near future - bold move but it'd be great economically! Feels like it makes sense if youre buying a new car to go with electric since it seems to the be the way the world is going!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 1, 2021)

Got a trip to southampton coming up 

Wife's said take the Alhambra which is tempting. Lots of room , more comfortable for me 

But I love a challenge .. 120 miles each way .. 200 mile range so need one stop 

Winchester south I normally stop for lunch so we tee off about 2 lunch half 12 at the services 


Anyways they have just been upgraded so lots of bays 

Top the car up to 80% whilst I have lunch (20-80% would take 20 mins, I'll be on 40 Ish so will be well done after lunch)

Won't need to stop on way back 

Very tempted.. would cost me under £10 for the trip!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

Last time we put fuel in the car was January just after the Corsa arrived

Been driving just at weekends with the family then last week had 5 days of going out in it

Couple of long runs in between to keep it going 

Finally filled it up 

Jezz fuels gone up. Haven't been looking just been pluggin in and going to and from work

To think we were using 2 tanks a month before


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## bobmac (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			To think we were using 2 tanks a month before
		
Click to expand...

What's that, about £160?


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## bobmac (Jul 4, 2021)

These 24 charging points aren't in America or China or even in Norway.......
M6 Junction 1 (Rugby)

_''Motorway service station operator Moto has announced plans to install ultra-rapid EV chargers at all its UK sites.

The first stage of the initiative is an installation of 12 Tesla and 12 Electric Highway 350kW DC chargers at the newly-opened Rugby Services, said to be the largest ultra-rapid charging site on the motorway.

The chargers have the capability to add up to *100 miles of range in less than five minutes and will accept contactless payment.''*_






Every little helps


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What's that, about £160?
		
Click to expand...

That's what I was sending to the fuel account now I do £50 and just see how it goes from then


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## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

Some great progress in the world off battery charging is happening, potentially bringing down charging times to  minutes.  
Charging time is the only thing really stopping everyone from going all electric.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Some great progress in the world off battery charging is happening, potentially bringing down charging times to  minutes. 
Charging time is the only thing really stopping everyone from going all electric.
		
Click to expand...

That and cost. The next car I'm looking at is a Skoda.. when I spec it right it's 45k.. which is silly cash but I'm hoping by then it drops a bit with the price of batteries dropping 

Then again it's a very nice car


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## bobmac (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That and cost. The next car I'm looking at is a Skoda.. when I spec it right it's 45k.. which is silly cash but I'm hoping by then it drops a bit with the price of batteries dropping

Then again it's a very nice car
		
Click to expand...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...ation=at_cars&make=TESLA&model=MODEL 3&page=1


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## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That and cost. The next car I'm looking at is a Skoda.. when I spec it right it's 45k.. which is silly cash but I'm hoping by then it drops a bit with the price of batteries dropping

Then again it's a very nice car
		
Click to expand...

Yes definitely, but that will change to over the next few years as production scales up.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes definitely, but that will change to over the next few years as production scales up.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah Skoda themselves have said they will produce 3 cheaper ones by 2025 think it was


bobmac said:



https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202106103711528?sort=price-asc&radius=1500&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&include-delivery-option=on&advertising-location=at_cars&make=TESLA&model=MODEL 3&page=1

Click to expand...

Very nice, wouldn't suit the family unfortunately


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## cliveb (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Some great progress in the world off battery charging is happening, potentially bringing down charging times to  minutes.
		
Click to expand...

I remain skeptical. What does it take to fully charge an EV - about 50kWh, yes?
Now let's suppose a utopian future where everyone has an EV, and 10 of them arrive at a "filling station" expecting to get charged in 5 mins.
That's 500 kWh to be delivered in 5 mins, which means the recharging station has to be able to deliver leccy at 6 MW.
That's about the same consumption as 250 houses running at full pelt.
Ain't gonna happen.


theoneandonly said:



			Charging time is the only thing really stopping everyone from going all electric.
		
Click to expand...

For me, charging time is not the issue. We'd like a small runaround to get to the golf club & Tesco. No problem plugging it in at home overnight.
The thing that stops us getting one is the cost of buying the car. They are simply too expensive and make no economic sense for low mileage drivers.
(Looking with interest at whether the Dacia Spring comes to the UK).


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

cliveb said:



			I remain skeptical. What does it take to fully charge an EV - about 50kWh, yes?
Now let's suppose a utopian future where everyone has an EV, and 10 of them arrive at a "filling station" expecting to get charged in 5 mins.
That's 500 kWh to be delivered in 5 mins, which means the recharging station has to be able to deliver leccy at 6 MW.
That's about the same consumption as 250 houses running at full pelt.
Ain't gonna happen.

For me, charging time is not the issue. We'd like a small runaround to get to the golf club & Tesco. No problem plugging it in at home overnight.
The thing that stops us getting one is the cost of buying the car. They are simply too expensive and make no economic sense for low mileage drivers.
(Looking with interest at whether the Dacia Spring comes to the UK).
		
Click to expand...

Interesting to see why you think 250 house supply couldn't happen? I mean the tube uses enough electric to run 360,000 houses (a year) why would 250 be a problem?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Some great progress in the world off battery charging is happening, potentially bringing down charging times to  minutes. 
*Charging time is the only thing really stopping everyone from going all electric.*

Click to expand...

That, and anyone wanting to tow anything. Stick a caravan or even a box trailer on the back of an electric car and the range plummets.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Interesting to see why you think 250 house supply couldn't happen? I mean the tube uses enough electric to run 360,000 houses (a year) why would 250 be a problem?
		
Click to expand...

Yes a very odd point to make.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			That, and anyone wanting to tow anything. Stick a caravan or even a box trailer on the back of an electric car and the range plummets.
		
Click to expand...

Er... If you can charge it quickly then range doesn't matter.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Er... If you can charge it quickly then range doesn't matter.
		
Click to expand...

It's a valid point tho but so long as quicker charging comes it does semi solve the issue 

Right now it wouldn't work


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## cliveb (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Interesting to see why you think 250 house supply couldn't happen? I mean the tube uses enough electric to run 360,000 houses (a year) why would 250 be a problem?
		
Click to expand...

Because the tube is a huge system spread over the whole of Greater London and you're comparing it to a car charging site the size of a garage. To supply 6MW it would need it's own substation. I don't think people have thought about the logistics of installing the necessary infrastructure to support rapid EV charging on a large scale.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Because the tube is a huge system spread over the whole of Greater London and you're comparing it to a car charging site the size of a garage. To supply 6MW it would need it's own substation. I don't think people have thought about the logistics of installing the necessary infrastructure to support rapid EV charging on a large scale.
		
Click to expand...

Check out gridserve at Braintree and how much power that can produce
At Braintree Electric Forecourt®, a 5 MW (AC) Grid connection enables us to #deliver an awesome amount of power to you very quickly.

We can receive 450 electric vehicle miles per minute of energy from the grid or 20,000 miles of charge per hour.

We also provide grid stabilisation services to the local area, can export in times of demand, and import additional energy on windy days from wind farms.

https://www.gridserve.com/ev-power-technology/?LeadSourceCode=crm1015

Worth noting it's already open...


----------



## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a valid point tho but so long as quicker charging comes it does semi solve the issue

Right now it wouldn't work
		
Click to expand...

I agree still stuff to  be done , but all the things that people give as reasons to  not go EV  are being chipped away at a rapid rate. 
Faster, lighter, cheaper and more durable batteries are  not far away. 
In turn we'll see cheaper cars.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 4, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Because the tube is a huge system spread over the whole of Greater London and you're comparing it to a car charging site the size of a garage. To supply 6MW it would need it's own substation. I don't think people have thought about the logistics of installing the necessary infrastructure to support rapid EV charging on a large scale.
		
Click to expand...

The national grid largely follows the motorway network so it would  be a piece of piss to get enough power for fast charging at motorway services.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I agree still stuff to  be done , but all the things that people give as reasons to  not go EV  are being chipped away at a rapid rate.
Faster, lighter, cheaper and more durable batteries are  not far away.
In turn we'll see cheaper cars.
		
Click to expand...

Lighter has happened already. Saw a video on an old nissan 24kw being upgraded by a company to 40kw battery. Due to tech advances it was same size

Charged 9k for the service think it was but these were people who didn't want a new car, were happy with their car and some were of the view of not throwing out stuff sort of thing so keep the older car going 

All the 40kw batteries recovered from crash damaged leafs


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## cliveb (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Check out gridserve at Braintree and how much power that can produce
At Braintree Electric Forecourt®, a 5 MW (AC) Grid connection enables us to #deliver an awesome amount of power to you very quickly.

We can receive 450 electric vehicle miles per minute of energy from the grid or 20,000 miles of charge per hour.

We also provide grid stabilisation services to the local area, can export in times of demand, and import additional energy on windy days from wind farms.

https://www.gridserve.com/ev-power-technology/?LeadSourceCode=crm1015

Worth noting it's already open...
		
Click to expand...

Ok, that is a welcome development. I do wonder how much it cost to build, and how likely it is that these kind of facilities can be deployed on a large scale. It's clearly a much bigger undertaking than a traditional garage forecourt. If you browse Gridserve's coverage map, most of their sites are far smaller. Braintree is clearly the jewel in their crown.

I guess back in the 1920s skeptical people like me didn't believe it would be possible to build a nationwide network of petrol stations. So let's hope the future proves me wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to go electric. Every time I make the 1.5 mile trip to the golf club in my petrol car I think it would make so much more sense to be in an EV. But until the cost to purchase an EV becomes competitive, it makes no economic sense. If the government wants to encourage us all to switch, it needs to use bigger incentives than are currently on offer. Just banning ICE cars is a clumsy way of forcing the issue.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Ok, that is a welcome development. I do wonder how much it cost to build, and how likely it is that these kind of facilities can be deployed on a large scale. It's clearly a much bigger undertaking than a traditional garage forecourt. If you browse Gridserve's coverage map, most of their sites are far smaller. Braintree is clearly the jewel in their crown.

I guess back in the 1920s skeptical people like me didn't believe it would be possible to build a nationwide network of petrol stations. So let's hope the future proves me wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to go electric. Every time I make the 1.5 mile trip to the golf club in my petrol car I think it would make so much more sense to be in an EV. But until the cost to purchase an EV becomes competitive, it makes no economic sense. If the government wants to encourage us all to switch, it needs to use bigger incentives than are currently on offer. Just banning ICE cars is a clumsy way of forcing the issue.
		
Click to expand...

I agree the ban is clumsy but it seems the only way to force manufacturers to develope the tech and stop focusing on petrol etc 

Grideserve have planning permission for more of these sites. I'm can't remember all of them on top of my head but Thurrock near me is getting one apparently

Grideserve has taken over the electric highway and is now undertaking upgrading their existing chargers at service stations. Removes the old 50kwh ones and replaces with 100kwh that can do 2 at once rather than 1

After that they are going to install more at all those locations and install 350kwh ones


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2021)

cliveb said:



			I remain skeptical. What does it take to fully charge an EV - about 50kWh, yes?
Now let's suppose a utopian future where everyone has an EV, and 10 of them arrive at a "filling station" expecting to get charged in 5 mins.

Ain't gonna happen.
		
Click to expand...

Em, it is happening.



cliveb said:



			The thing that stops us getting one is the cost of buying the car. They are simply too expensive and make no economic sense for low mileage drivers.
		
Click to expand...

A Nissan Leaf on Autotrader start at £3,500 perfect for your 1.5m commute to the golf club.



cliveb said:



			I don't think people have thought about the logistics of installing the necessary infrastructure to support rapid EV charging on a large scale.
		
Click to expand...

I think they have, you just have to be patient.
We're not there yet but as someone said above, the reasons to not buy an EV are being fixed. Maybe not at the speed everyone would like but we have been busy with Covid recently.

And just for the record, ICE cars aren't being banned, just the sale of new cars. You can buy a new ICE car in 2029 and drive it for 30 years if you want to.

EVs are here to stay and as the prices continue to fall and charging points start appearing outside your supermarket/golf club/gym/cinema/shopping centre etc, it will make perfect sense to change.


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## IanM (Jul 5, 2021)

James  will miss breakfast at JCB as his car didn't charge.

Dino-diesel was here early and is drinking coffee!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2021)

IanM said:



			James  will miss breakfast at JCB as his car didn't charge.

Dino-diesel was here early and is drinking coffee!
		
Click to expand...

That's not the first time either? Something sounds bit off with his home charger ..


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## Robster59 (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's not the first time either? Something sounds bit off with his home charger ..
		
Click to expand...

Maybe needs some more 50p coins for the meter?


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2021)

cliveb said:



			Because the tube is a huge system spread over the whole of Greater London and you're comparing it to a car charging site the size of a garage. To supply 6MW it would need it's own substation. I don't think people have thought about the logistics of installing the necessary infrastructure to support rapid EV charging on a large scale.
		
Click to expand...

*''Europe's most powerful EV charging hub to open in Oxford this year*
Energy Superhub Oxford will draw 10MW of power directly from the national grid''

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...ost-powerful-ev-charging-hub-open-oxford-year


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## Whereditgo (Jul 5, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Er... If you can charge it quickly then range doesn't matter.
		
Click to expand...

Except the actual towing capacity for EV's is next to useless. I am currently in the process of replacing my company car, I regularly need to tow a trailer, looking at EV's and even hybrids the options are very limited (probably zero).

On another note, I was talking to a mate a couple of years ago, he's a bit of a boffin, he reckoned then that they were working on a system whereby EV's would be charged via bluetooth as you drive down the motorway.


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Except the actual towing capacity for EV's is next to useless. I am currently in the process of replacing my company car, I regularly need to tow a trailer, looking at EV's and even hybrids the options are very limited (probably zero).
		
Click to expand...

This may be of interest...

https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and...with-an-electric-car-hybrid-or-plug-in-hybrid


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## Whereditgo (Jul 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			This may be of interest...

https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and...with-an-electric-car-hybrid-or-plug-in-hybrid

Click to expand...

The ones that have a suitable towing weight, circa 2000 kg for a braked trailer, are a bit (a lot) out of budget Bob.


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			The ones that have a suitable towing weight, circa 2000 kg for a braked trailer, are a bit (a lot) out of budget Bob.
		
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I did notice


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## Smiffy (Jul 5, 2021)

I've got a guy that wants to buy an e208 and needs a towbar fitted to fit a bike rack. Peugeot don't offer a towbar, and trying to find one is proving to be a nightmare. Could be the be all and end all of the sale....🙄🙄🙄🙄


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Except the actual towing capacity for EV's is next to useless. I am currently in the process of replacing my company car, I regularly need to tow a trailer, looking at EV's and even hybrids the options are very limited (probably zero).

On another note, I was talking to a mate a couple of years ago, he's a bit of a boffin, he reckoned then that they were working on a system whereby EV's would be charged via bluetooth as you drive down the motorway.
		
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The Skoda Superb iV has a towing capacity and mine is fitted with a towbar. I've not used it yet but I'll let you know how it goes.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 23, 2021)

Had one of the Honda electric cars as a courtesy car yesterday, can't say I was blown away by the experience partly due to it being an automatic.
nearly passed out when they told.me.what it costs .when I took it back.
I won't be going electric until I am made to do so.


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## bobmac (Jul 23, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Had one of the Honda electric cars as a courtesy car yesterday, can't say I was blown away by the experience partly due to it being an automatic.
nearly passed out when they told.me.what it costs .when I took it back.
I won't be going electric until I am made to do so.
		
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Other electric cars are available


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## spongebob59 (Jul 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Other electric cars are available  

Click to expand...

that wouldn't change my mind.
😉


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Had one of the Honda electric cars as a courtesy car yesterday, can't say I was blown away by the experience partly due to it being an automatic.
nearly passed out when they told.me.what it costs .when I took it back.
I won't be going electric until I am made to do so.
		
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All electric, hybrids are automatic. Afraid it's the future


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## Whereditgo (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			All electric, hybrids are automatic. Afraid it's the future
		
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Automatics now are so smooth and the driving, particularly in slow traffic is effortless, I wouldn't have a manual transmission car by choice in any car, unless it was something that was going to be solely used as a track day car.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Automatics now are so smooth and the driving, particularly in slow traffic is effortless, I wouldn't have a manual transmission car by choice in any car, unless it was something that was going to be solely used as a track day car.
		
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Love mine

But I drive on the north circular every day 

Manual is a pain with that traffic


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## spongebob59 (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			All electric, hybrids are automatic. Afraid it's the future
		
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👎


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			👎
		
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I switched when I went hybrid years ago 

But I had just had my ACL done so it worked for me lol


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## BiMGuy (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Love mine

But I drive on the north circular every day

Manual is a pain with that traffic
		
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The ZF8 gearbox in my car is a thing of beauty. I never want to change gear manually ever again.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I switched when I went hybrid years ago

But I had just had my ACL done so it worked for me lol
		
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I don't do that much mileage, so when I get in my car I want to drive it.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The ZF8 gearbox in my car is a thing of beauty. I never want to change gear manually ever again.
		
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Don't get people that do tbh .. but personal choice ..


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## GreiginFife (Jul 23, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The ZF8 gearbox in my car is a thing of beauty. I never want to change gear manually ever again.
		
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Totally agree, my ZF8 is mated to Ward's best engine 3 of the last 4 years, BMW's B58 and the combination is absolutely brilliant. 

I can only imagine people that diss autoboxes are the ones that think of them as the old, slow and clunky mechanisms. The speed of shift in modern autos is way faster than a person could do (short of having a short-shift box and stick) and with the addition of paddles, you can still maintain a degree of control for "fun times" driving.


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## Whereditgo (Jul 23, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I don't do that much mileage, so when I get in my car I want to drive it.
		
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My brothers weekend fun car is an Aston, automatic with paddle shift, pretty sure he enjoys "driving it" lol

This was fun too, it does have clutch, only used for driving away from standstill and stopping, the rest of the time it is paddle shift with quickshifter and autoblipper.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 23, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Totally agree, my ZF8 is mated to Ward's best engine 3 of the last 4 years, BMW's B58 and the combination is absolutely brilliant.

I can only imagine people that diss autoboxes are the ones that think of them as the old, slow and clunky mechanisms. The speed of shift in modern autos is way faster than a person could do (short of having a short-shift box and stick) and with the addition of paddles, you can still maintain a degree of control for "fun times" driving.
		
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I've the N57 engine in my car, which suits the gearbox perfectly.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 23, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I've the N57 engine in my car, which suits the gearbox perfectly.
		
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535d?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 23, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			535d?
		
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Yes in an F11. 

A friend has a remapped 435d with the gearbox done too. The acceleration is hilarious.


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## bobmac (Jul 23, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			My brothers weekend fun car is an Aston, automatic with paddle shift, pretty sure he enjoys "driving it" lol

This was fun too, it does have clutch, only used for driving away from standstill and stopping, the rest of the time it is paddle shift with quickshifter and autoblipper.

View attachment 37690

Click to expand...

The trouble is, where do you put the kids and the shopping?


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## GreiginFife (Jul 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The trouble is, where do you put the kids and the shopping?
		
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Not sure that's really _trouble_ Bob, more like a bonus...

Oh and I have preregistered for the BMW i4 so will be making the switch when it's available.


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## pool888 (Jul 26, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not sure that's really _trouble_ Bob, more like a bonus...

Oh and I have preregistered for the BMW i4 so will be making the switch when it's available.
		
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You going for the i4 M50 or the standard one?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 26, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			The national grid largely follows the motorway network so it would  be a piece of piss to get enough power for fast charging at motorway services.
		
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OK, but huge swathes of the country are nowhere near a motorway. 

Charging points, the time it takes to charge, the environmental damage that the mining of lithium and the vast demand for electric from all these cars will I fear see the demise of the EV in quick order. They're a fake solution to petrol & diesel.


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## bobmac (Jul 26, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			They're a fake solution to petrol & diesel.
		
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You forgot to mention the 50 mile range, the huge costs of the cars and having to replace the batteries every 3 years.

What would be your solution?


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## GreiginFife (Jul 26, 2021)

pool888 said:



			You going for the i4 M50 or the standard one?
		
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M50 variant. Been told June/July 2022 earliest


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## Fade and Die (Jul 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You forgot to mention the 50 mile range, the huge costs of the cars and having to replace the batteries every 3 years.

What would be your solution?
		
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Don’t forget child Labour to mine for Cobalt and Lithium plus burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity👍
But hey we are saving the planet.


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## Rooter (Jul 26, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Don’t forget child Labour to mine for Cobalt and Lithium plus burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity👍
But hey we are saving the planet.
		
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Not to mention the carbon footprint of the manufacturing process of all the components.

Anyway, today, which is a nice sunny day's power sources:

42% Gas
17% solar
10% nuclear
8% BioMass
8% imported from france
5% wind
3% imported from NL
3 % imported from Belgium
3% coal


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You forgot to mention the 50 mile range, the huge costs of the cars and having to replace the batteries every 3 years.

What would be your solution?
		
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Oh indeed.

Honestly I don't know. But cars were pumping out cleaner air than they put in until they all started the race to be all-electric, technology is advancing at a helluva rate, personal transport is essential particularly in rural areas, could we have made fossil fuel burning truly clean? I'd guess we probably could have.

Electric isn;t the answer, it may well be worse than the disease it's curing.


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## bobmac (Jul 26, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Don’t forget child Labour to mine for Cobalt and Lithium plus burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity👍
But hey we are saving the planet.
		
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You do know that cobalt is also used in the refinement of crude oil, which is used to make petrol and diesel?
And that every battery manufacturer is looking for a lithium/cobalt free battery, including Professor Goodenough who invented the Lithium-ion battery which powers every mobile phone/ i-pad/laptop on the planet.



Banchory Buddha said:



			Oh indeed.

Honestly I don't know. *But cars were pumping out cleaner air than they put in* until they all started the race to be all-electric, technology is advancing at a helluva rate, personal transport is essential particularly in rural areas, *could we have made fossil fuel burning truly clean? I'd guess we probably could have.*

Electric isn;t the answer, *it may well be worse than the disease it's curing*.
		
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You'll have to help me out with the bits in bold, have you got any links please?


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## bobmac (Jul 26, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			plus burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity👍
But hey we are saving the planet.
		
Click to expand...

As the cost of renewable energy continues to fall, it makes more sense to stop burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity and focus on the future of renewable.

_ In most places in the world power from new renewables is now cheaper than power from new fossil fuels._

https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2021)

The problem I find is once people get one bit into their head about new tech that's it.. they won't do any further research .. will bring out the same points over and over even if those points now don't even come into it anymore.

People simply don't like change


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## hovis (Jul 26, 2021)

All I know is it cost me £3.20 to charge my car for its 300 mile range!!!!!   I'll take that


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2021)

A colleague got stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway outside of Liverpool for quite a long time the other week, he said there were two Tesla's on the hard shoulder, both of which had run out of battery power 🤣


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## BiMGuy (Jul 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A colleague got stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway outside of Liverpool for quite a long time the other week, he said there were two Tesla's on the hard shoulder, both of which had run out of battery power 🤣
		
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Has no one ever ran out of petrol or Diesel?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A colleague got stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway outside of Liverpool for quite a long time the other week, he said there were two Tesla's on the hard shoulder, both of which had run out of battery power 🤣
		
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Got to love hearsay stories , who's to say they run out of charge?

Funny how they were both telsas and not leafs for example 

Almost like the story was exaggerated and one telsa had a flat tyre


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Has no one ever ran out of petrol or Diesel?
		
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Well of course, but I guess with a regular car you just turn your engine off, with an electric car you still need the battery on to function.


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Got to love hearsay stories , who's to say they run out of charge?

Funny how they were both telsas and not leafs for example

Almost like the story was exaggerated and one telsa had a flat tyre
		
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Hearsay 🤣🤣🤣
Who the heck drives Leafs anyway 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Well of course, but I guess with a regular car you just turn your engine off, with an electric car you still need the battery on to function.
		
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Do you? It has a 12v battery same as a normal car so can function without the main battery..


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## Beezerk (Jul 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Do you? It has a 12v battery same as a normal car so can function without the main battery..
		
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Now that's just hearsay 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Jul 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Now that's just hearsay 🤣
		
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Or factually correct as it is how they are built 🙂


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## hovis (Jul 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A colleague got stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway outside of Liverpool for quite a long time the other week, he said there were two Tesla's on the hard shoulder, both of which had run out of battery power 🤣
		
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I doubt that very much. They use almost zero power at standstill. Unless they sit there with ac on full blast the milage until empty wouldn't be changed due to traffic jams


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## cliveb (Jul 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Or factually correct as it is how they are built 🙂
		
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It's news to me that EVs also have 12V batteries (presumably lead acid?)
Can anyone explain why? I'm not being argumentative, just genuinely interested in the reason.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2021)

cliveb said:



			It's news to me that EVs also have 12V batteries (presumably lead acid?)
Can anyone explain why? I'm not being argumentative, just genuinely interested in the reason.
		
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To start them, the 12v will start the car and then run off the normal battery

https://evcentral.com.au/do-electric-cars-have-12v-batteries/

Yes, just like normal cars, EVs have 12-Volt batteries.

There are two very good reasons why.

Cost is one. Like any other kind of car, an EV has headlights, indicators, brake lights, windscreen wipers, an audio system, and other electric devices. With a 12V battery, the same inexpensive, mass produced components used in a normal car can be used in an EV.

Safety is the second reason. The high-voltage battery pack that powers an EV’s wheels stores a lot of energy, more than enough to deliver a fatal shock. So when an EV is shut down, it’s a very good idea to electrically isolate its battery pack.


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## TopOfTheFlop (Jul 27, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A colleague got stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway outside of Liverpool for quite a long time the other week, he said there were two Tesla's on the hard shoulder, both of which had run out of battery power 🤣
		
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This is hilarious. I have a model 3, went away for 2 weeks and came back and it went from 57% to 54%.
Doubt a traffic jam with the car turned on would diminish to zero unless they left the house at 3% and then the dreaded traffic jam hit. 😂 those pesky Tesla owners, just don’t know how to do it do they! 
p.S you’re Tesla would be going bat crazy at you if you leave the house that low on battery so I call hearsay on that story


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## Beezerk (Jul 27, 2021)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			This is hilarious. I have a model 3, went away for 2 weeks and came back and it went from 57% to 54%.
Doubt a traffic jam with the car turned on would diminish to zero unless they left the house at 3% and then the dreaded traffic jam hit. 😂 those pesky Tesla owners, just don’t know how to do it do they!
p.S you’re Tesla would be going bat crazy at you if you leave the house that low on battery so I call hearsay on that story
		
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It was actually a bit of a joke from my colleague, one of our bosses has bought a Tesla as he's no longer on the road so he doesn't need the range now. He'd been in the traffic jam for around 6 hours I think as the motorway had closed but there were definitely two Teslas on the hard shoulder which he found hilarious.
As an aside, I have found that Tesla drivers are the new road terrorists and have surpassed BMW and Audi drives for being @rseholes


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## TopOfTheFlop (Jul 27, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			It was actually a bit of a joke from my colleague, one of our bosses has bought a Tesla as he's no longer on the road so he doesn't need the range now. He'd been in the traffic jam for around 6 hours I think as the motorway had closed but there were definitely two Teslas on the hard shoulder which he found hilarious.
As an aside, I have found that Tesla drivers are the new road terrorists and have surpassed BMW and Audi drives for being @rseholes 

Click to expand...

Haha perhaps but they probably pulled over to watch Netflix for the 6hrs or YouTube videos of how to break 80, rather than sit and crawl in that crappy traffic jam.
P.S I’m not an arseh@le of the road just letting you know 😂👍🏻


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## Miller (Jul 27, 2021)

I did think about getting an electric car when the PCP on my old car ran out.  I got put off by a couple of things.

1) Upfront expense - EVs are still expensive
2) Charging - the time it takes to charge vs refuelling, and the confusing multitude of providers/apps.

I bought a PHEV (Volvo) so I'm aware of public charging points.  It seems like every charging station I've come up to has a different provider and different app/account to set upo before you can charge (even the free charging at supermarkets).  I guess eventually, I'll have downloaded all of the apps, but it just gets to be so much of a faff that I mainly just recharge at home.


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## Beezerk (Jul 27, 2021)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			Haha perhaps but they probably pulled over to watch Netflix for the 6hrs or YouTube videos of how to break 80, rather than sit and crawl in that crappy traffic jam.
P.S I’m not an arseh@le of the road just letting you know 😂👍🏻
		
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😅
Got to be honest, if they had the range that I require (I can do 300 or 400 miles a day on a bad day) I'd be all over a Tesla.


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## bobmac (Jul 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			It seems like every charging station I've come up to has a different provider and different app/account to set upo before you can charge (even the free charging at supermarkets).
		
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Downloading a free app once is a small price to pay for free fuel at the supermarket.



Beezerk said:



			😅
Got to be honest, if they had the range that I require (I can do 300 or 400 miles a day on a bad day) I'd be all over a Tesla.
		
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300-400 miles in a day or one journey?


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## Miller (Jul 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Downloading a free app once is a small price to pay for free fuel at the supermarket.
		
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Yes, that's absolutely fine.  I'm just saying that it seems like every charger you approach requires you to download another app, set up another account, verify, the account, set up payment (even if the charger is free, other chargers from the same provider might charge), and then work out how the app works before you can charge.

The whole thing could (and should) be a whole lot simpler in operation.


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## Beezerk (Jul 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Downloading a free app once is a small price to pay for free fuel at the supermarket.



300-400 miles in a day or one journey?
		
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In a day, a lot of my customers are 150 plus miles  away.


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## bobmac (Jul 27, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			In a day, a lot of my customers are 150 plus miles  away.
		
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Drive there, charge your car while having lunch, drive home


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			Yes, that's absolutely fine.  I'm just saying that it seems like every charger you approach requires you to download another app, set up another account, verify, the account, set up payment (even if the charger is free, other chargers from the same provider might charge), and then work out how the app works before you can charge.

The whole thing could (and should) be a whole lot simpler in operation.
		
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New chargers have to be made payable by contactless

There is even talk that you can plug into some and click remember me and it will auto charge your card


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## bobmac (Jul 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			The whole thing could (and should) be a whole lot simpler in operation.
		
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It will be eventually, once the manufacturers get their heads together.
We all have to have patience.
Until then, stick with your Volvo.
I'm sure in 5 years time, the decision will be much easier


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## Miller (Jul 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure in 5 years time, the decision will be much easier
		
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Exactly why I opted for PHEV.  Most of my trips are shorter than the 20 mile range, so it works out for me.

Even then, I bet my next car will also be a PHEV as the infrastructure still won't be sorted out.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Drive there, charge your car while having lunch, drive home
		
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That's not always an option. Pre pandemic I would often have to do 3/4/500 miles in a day, to building sites that don't have reliable power nevermind cae charging points.

I know that's not typical, and unless I need the toilet or fuel, I will do the drive without stopping. I don't like stopping for diesel as it adds to my journey time. I certainly don't want to have to sit and wait for my car to charge.

Once range isn't a problem, I'll have no problem going electric.


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## hovis (Jul 27, 2021)

Miller said:



			Yes, that's absolutely fine.  I'm just saying that it seems like every charger you approach requires you to download another app, set up another account, verify, the account, set up payment (even if the charger is free, other chargers from the same provider might charge), and then work out how the app works before you can charge.

The whole thing could (and should) be a whole lot simpler in operation.
		
Click to expand...

I use instavolt when I need to.  No app, no signing in just plug in and bleep your bank card.   Bp ultimate are the same


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## hovis (Jul 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That's not always an option. Pre pandemic I would often have to do 3/4/500 miles in a day, to building sites that don't have reliable power nevermind cae charging points.

I know that's not typical, and unless I need the toilet or fuel, I will do the drive without stopping. I don't like stopping for diesel as it adds to my journey time. I certainly don't want to have to sit and wait for my car to charge.

Once range isn't a problem, I'll have no problem going electric.
		
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At some point you have to eat.  If you're doing 500 miles a day you can run your 300 mile battery down to zero and charge an extra 200 miles in 40 minutes.  Most instavolt chargers are at mcdonald's


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## Beezerk (Jul 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Drive there, charge your car while having lunch, drive home
		
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You obviously haven't been to some of my customers 🤣


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## BiMGuy (Jul 27, 2021)

hovis said:



			At some point you have to eat.  If you're doing 500 miles a day you can run your 300 mile battery down to zero and charge an extra 200 miles in 40 minutes.  Most instavolt chargers are at mcdonald's
		
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I do my eating before setting off in either direction. Like I said. When doing 3 hours in the car. The last thing I want to do is add another 40 minutes to that journey. 

There are a few cars that I would consider buy that are getting closer to having an acceptable range. Just the cost of them is currently out of my range. 

It's irrelevant anyway, as I have a couple of years left with my current car.


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## hovis (Jul 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I do my eating before setting off in either direction. Like I said. When doing 3 hours in the car. The last thing I want to do is add another 40 minutes to that journey. 

There are a few cars that I would consider buy that are getting closer to having an acceptable range. Just the cost of them is currently out of my range. 

It's irrelevant anyway, as I have a couple of years left with my current car.
		
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Well then don't eat before you set out and leave earlier. You shouldn't be driving 400 miles without a rest.  A 40 minute stop is not inconvenience.  Sounds like your just looking for an excuse


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## BiMGuy (Jul 27, 2021)

hovis said:



			Well then don't eat before you set out and leave earlier. You shouldn't be driving 400 miles without a rest.  A 40 minute stop is not inconvenience.  Sounds like your just looking for an excuse
		
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I don't drive 400 miles without a break. I do 400 mile round trips.

And I don't need to make excuses. I don't want a battery powered car at the minute as they aren't suitable for what I need, and the only ones I'd want are out of my reach price wise. 
In a couple of years I'm sure there will be more options and prices will soften. Or I might have a job that doesn't require the journeys I currently do.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I don't drive 400 miles without a break. I do 400 mile round trips.

And I don't need to make excuses. I don't want a battery powered car at the minute as they aren't suitable for what I need, and the only ones I'd want are out of my reach price wise.
In a couple of years I'm sure there will be more options and prices will soften. Or I might have a job that doesn't require the journeys I currently do.
		
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I think that if we are really serious about climate change then jobs that require a lot of travel need to become less the norm. Or better managed so it's less here there and everywhere 

Always been against the business jolly abroad just because when zoom will work.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think that if we are really serious about climate change then jobs that require a lot of travel need to become less the norm. Or better managed so it's less here there and everywhere

Always been against the business jolly abroad just because when zoom will work.
		
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I don't disagree. But It's a small piece of a very big pie. 
Most of my work can be done from home. And the business has recognised that. But it's very difficult to build things sitting at home working in your pyjamas. 

Sometimes you just need to be on site dealing with a problem.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I don't disagree. But It's a small piece of a very big pie.
Most of my work can be done from home. And the business has recognised that. But it's very difficult to build things sitting at home working in your pyjamas.

Sometimes you just need to be on site dealing with a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Fully agree but I hope going forward that more of the stuff that can be done at home is done so and the stuff that can't obviously can't be 

I mean I can't work from home so I have to travel 

But like sending people to smooze clients over lunch in Rome when could be done over zoom for a meeting should be days of the past.


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## Robster59 (Jul 29, 2021)

Going back on to the hydrogen comments, our company is planning to move all its trucks globally over to Hydrogen Fuel Cell.  The plan is for company cars to be electric or hybrid.
Air Products and Cummins to Accelerate Development and Deployment of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Trucks
I don't necessarily agree with the emotive statements of driving a bomb, as that can be got around with good design quite easily.  The more difficult thing is the infrastructure to refuel them. 
However, given that we are one of the world's largest producers of Hydrogen, refuelling the trucks every night at the depot shouldn't be a problem.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 1, 2021)

https://newatlas.com/automotive/trojan-flat-and-flush-on-street-ev-charge-points-brent/?amp=true


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2021)

Mate of mine works for VW .
He gave me a go of his ID3 .( golf sized hatchback).
I was very impressed ,stunning car.
Until he told me it cost £40K there lies the problem


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## BiMGuy (Aug 1, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Mate of mine works for VW .
He gave me a go of his ID3 .( golf sized hatchback).
I was very impressed ,stunning car.
Until he told me it cost £40K there lies the problem
		
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Who pays the sticker price though? Surely what counts it how much the monthly payments are. 

Is it expensive compared to an equivalent Golf? 
The most basic Golf is £23k, the GTI Starts at £32k, GTE starts at £36k, an R starts at £40k and can be speced to over £50k.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Who pays the sticker price though? Surely what counts it how much the monthly payments are.

Is it expensive compared to an equivalent Golf?
The most basic Golf is £23k, the GTI Starts at £32k, GTE starts at £36k, an R starts at £40k and can be speced to over £50k.
		
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It’s a lovely car .
But it’s not a type R.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 1, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s a lovely car .
But it’s not a type R.
		
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Especially in primer grey......


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## bobmac (Aug 2, 2021)

I believe there are some people who thing electric vehicles are bad for the environment because of the way they are manufactured, driven and charged, this may interest you...

_''Results show that even for cars registered today, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) have by far the lowest life-cycle GHG emissions. As illustrated in the figure below, emissions over the lifetime of average medium-size BEVs registered today are already lower than comparable gasoline cars by 66%–69% in Europe''_

_https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021_


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## Piece (Aug 2, 2021)

The Polestar Precept. 👍😍


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## GreiginFife (Aug 2, 2021)

Piece said:



			The Polestar Precept. 👍😍
		
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Each to their own mate, but not for me. Those suicide doors are awful, a gimmick that serves no purpose and (if you've used SDs before) it's actually harder to get in when parked close to another object. 

Also kinda reminds me of the BMW 6er when it launched in that the front is nice but looks like the designer got fed up by the time they reached the back end and just went "sod it, that'll do"... Slightly i8-ish from the side. But the back, looks like what we thought futuristic cars would look like back in the 80s 

Wonder what the coinage will be on that?


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## Piece (Aug 2, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Each to their own mate, but not for me. Those suicide doors are awful, a gimmick that serves no purpose and (if you've used SDs before) it's actually harder to get in when parked close to another object.

Also kinda reminds me of the BMW 6er when it launched in that the front is nice but looks like the designer got fed up by the time they reached the back end and just went "sod it, that'll do"... Slightly i8-ish from the side. But the back, looks like what we thought futuristic cars would look like back in the 80s 

Wonder what the coinage will be on that?
		
Click to expand...

Ive ignored the practicalities of it and just based on what was shown on the Autotrader video. I’m sure the production car will be watered down.

Actually, looking at the thumbnail pic of the car, it looks like a Nissan GTR!


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## GreiginFife (Aug 2, 2021)

Piece said:



			Ive ignored the practicalities of it and just based on what was shown on the Autotrader video. I’m sure the production car will be watered down.

Actually, looking at the thumbnail pic of the car, it looks like a Nissan GTR!
		
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I watched the video on the website, when the lead designer is talking through the nylon seats and organic materials and just took my impressions from that. Hopefully they see the light with the doors and maybe tone down the wrap around tail lights. 

Front end is nice looking just needs the same level of attention on the back IMO.


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## Britishshooting (Aug 7, 2021)

Just purchased a Matte Grey Fiat 500e today for the wife, not a bad little car really but twice as much as the original petrol fiat 500's were. There a bit more pricey than I feel there worth but she wanted to go fully electric and she loves the new ones. 

Pick it up Thursday once it's registered, got a few extra's but there are some cheap plasticy bits inside on what little amount of buttons there are inside.

She has charging points at work so it's free electric for her and we have a charge point at home too.

I love a big diesel these days for the mile munching but I do enjoy driving the EV's these days too. Much cheaper than my diesel too!


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## Smiffy (Aug 8, 2021)

Our Hyundai dealership have just taken delivery of their first Ioniq 5. I'm not a great fan of Hyundai if I'm honest, but this does look something special (if you like that sort of thing)......the only things I don't like about it are the wheels. But when you're sitting inside you can't see those.......


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 8, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Our Hyundai dealership have just taken delivery of their first Ioniq 5. I'm not a great fan of Hyundai if I'm honest, but this does look something special (if you like that sort of thing)......the only things I don't like about it are the wheels. But when you're sitting inside you can't see those.......

View attachment 37919

Click to expand...


We move lots of Hyundai electrics around, and concur the Ionic 5 is really nice as is the Kona


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2021)

Thinking of pulling the trigger on a Toyota hybrid but stuck between 2… a Yaris or a Corolla. As 95% of our journeys are less than 10km, and mostly urban the 84mpg for the urban cycle is very attractive.

Providing we can get 2xmidsize suitcases in it the Yaris is the favourite but having done a number of ‘B&Q’ runs recently… Corolla?


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## Smiffy (Aug 8, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			As 95% of our journeys are less than 10km, and mostly urban *the 84mpg for the urban cycle is very attractive.*

Click to expand...

And very optimistic


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## pauljames87 (Aug 8, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Thinking of pulling the trigger on a Toyota hybrid but stuck between 2… a Yaris or a Corolla. As 95% of our journeys are less than 10km, and mostly urban the 84mpg for the urban cycle is very attractive.

Providing we can get 2xmidsize suitcases in it the Yaris is the favourite but having done a number of ‘B&Q’ runs recently… Corolla?
		
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Corolla. I had the auris hybrid which it replaced I believe. Similar size anyways 

My sister had the Yaris hybrid. It's very small

Least with the corolla you can get a little extra in


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 8, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			And very optimistic


Click to expand...

Whilst I don't disagree totally, my wife gets 75 in hers. They may be a "small" car, but when inside them (the front at least) they seem quite a bit bigger.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 8, 2021)

The Yaris is a great car for a single person but it has some limitations. The Corolla is a good middle ground, still easy to park, gives you more flexibility for carrying things, having passengers etc.


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Corolla. I had the auris hybrid which it replaced I believe. Similar size anyways

My sister had the Yaris hybrid. It's very small

Least with the corolla you can get a little extra in
		
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Lord Tyrion said:



			The Yaris is a great car for a single person but it has some limitations. The Corolla is a good middle ground, still easy to park, gives you more flexibility for carrying things, having passengers etc.
		
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The size of the cabin isn’t an issue. We sold our Kia Niro in January last year as Mrs Hobbit wouldn’t drive it - “too big,” even though we had had Audi A6’s for years. We replaced the Niro with a Kia Picanto, which she drives quite happily.

It took a long while for me not to lip curl getting into the Picanto, and would love another Niro. Unfortunately, she twitched a bit when we tried the Corolla on Friday. The Yaris boot is about 10 inches bigger front to back than the Picanto’s.

Apart from an airport run, collecting and dropping people and cases, there’s no need for a bigger car. And for the odd week or two people come out, we can always hire something.

Yaris is winning.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 8, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The size of the cabin isn’t an issue. We sold our Kia Niro in January last year as Mrs Hobbit wouldn’t drive it - “too big,” even though we had had Audi A6’s for years. We replaced the Niro with a Kia Picanto, which she drives quite happily.

It took a long while for me not to lip curl getting into the Picanto, and would love another Niro. Unfortunately, she twitched a bit when we tried the Corolla on Friday. The Yaris boot is about 10 inches bigger front to back than the Picanto’s.

Apart from an airport run, collecting and dropping people and cases, there’s no need for a bigger car. And for the odd week or two people come out, we can always hire something.

Yaris is winning.
		
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My sister is on to her 3rd Yaris, never put a foot wrong and saved her when she was in a pretty nasty accident. If boot space isn't an issue then go for it, cracking little cars.


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## hovis (Aug 8, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We move lots of Hyundai electrics around, and concur the Ionic 5 is really nice as is the Kona
		
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I have the kona electric.  Well, my wife does.   Amazing car.   Air conditioning seats are amazing after a round in the sweltering heat.   The only thing I don't like is the VESS (virtual engine sound system). You can't turn it off which is annoying my neighbours when I reverse off My drive at 6am.  And before someone says why don't I reverse it on my drive I have to point it nose in to charge


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## pauljames87 (Aug 8, 2021)

hovis said:



			I have the kona electric.  Well, my wife does.   Amazing car.   Air conditioning seats are amazing after a round in the sweltering heat.   The only thing I don't like is the VESS (virtual engine sound system). You can't turn it off which is annoying my neighbours when I reverse off My drive at 6am.  And before someone says why don't I reverse it on my drive I have to point it nose in to charge
		
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Really wanted that car. It's very nice


I'll see if I can get the skoda next time if it can fit all of us


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## PIng (Aug 9, 2021)

hovis said:



			I have the kona electric.  Well, my wife does.   Amazing car.   Air conditioning seats are amazing after a round in the sweltering heat.   The only thing I don't like is the VESS (virtual engine sound system). You can't turn it off which is annoying my neighbours when I reverse off My drive at 6am.  And before someone says why don't I reverse it on my drive I have to point it nose in to charge
		
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Can you get your clubs in the boot ok? I have an Ioniq electric and can get the bag and trolly in at a push, but usually just fold the seats down. Looked into the back of a Kona and it looked a bit smaller?


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## bobmac (Aug 9, 2021)

Ioniq
Seats up 350L
Car width 1820mm

Kona 332L
Car width 2070mm


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 9, 2021)

PIng said:



			Can you get your clubs in the boot ok? I have an Ioniq electric and can get the bag and trolly in at a push, but usually just fold the seats down. Looked into the back of a Kona and it looked a bit smaller?
		
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When I was looking to replace my old car a while ago, I could get my full bag and trolley in the Ioniq hybrid boot, but no chance in a Kona hybrid.
i bought a Mazda 3


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## GreiginFife (Aug 9, 2021)

Its a long way off yet (BMW inform me that my likely delivery time will be July 2022) but I am quite excited by the fact the the i4 is only losing 10L of boot space compared to its ICE brethren (470L vs 480L in the Grande Coupe it shares its design with).


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2021)

PIng said:



			Can you get your clubs in the boot ok? I have an Ioniq electric and can get the bag and trolly in at a push, but usually just fold the seats down. Looked into the back of a Kona and it looked a bit smaller?
		
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I can if I take my driver out.  But, like you I just fold the small side down and slot them in to make room for my trolley too.   The boot space in the kona isn't the greatest.   I'm currently on holiday and managed two large suitcases though


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## Robster59 (Aug 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			The Skoda Superb iV has a towing capacity and mine is fitted with a towbar. I've not used it yet but I'll let you know how it goes.
		
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Just an update.  Last week I towed my caravan from Glasgow to Silverdale, then Kelso and back to Glasgow.  I had fully charged it before I set off, had it on hybrid mode with the gearbox in 'B' mode and managed to get well into the 30+ MPG which for towing a caravan which is pretty much the same as I was getting with my 2.0 diesel.  The battery level dropped pretty slowly on the initial journey as it was motorway so pretty steady speeds.  Going back home from Kelso then we were going along country roads and that caused the battery level to fall a lot faster.  
However, the issue about charging remains.  From a commercial charger it still takes 3-4 hours to charge as it can't take higher rates, and in some areas, there are just not enough charging points near enough that I can charge my car and walk back.


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			However, the issue about charging remains.  From a commercial charger it still takes 3-4 hours to charge as it can't take higher rates, and in some areas, there are just not enough charging points near enough that I can charge my car and walk back.
		
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So the issue is the car not the chargers? Do you have a hybrid or electric car?
My car charges to 80% (240miles) in 40 minutes with a commercial fast charger


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## Robster59 (Aug 9, 2021)

hovis said:



			So the issue is the car not the chargers? Do you have a hybrid or electric car?
My car charges to 80% (240miles) in 40 minutes with a commercial fast charger
		
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It's both.  The car is certainly an issue as it does not take a fast charge.  It's a Plug-In Hybrid.  But the availability of commercial chargers in out of the way areas is also an issue. There were plenty in Carnforth nearby, but that would have been an hours walk each way minimum.  
It's an issue with Plug-In hybrids, I know.


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			It's both.  The car is certainly an issue as it does not take a fast charge.  It's a Plug-In Hybrid.  But the availability of commercial chargers in out of the way areas is also an issue. There were plenty in Carnforth nearby, but that would have been an hours walk each way minimum.  
It's an issue with Plug-In hybrids, I know.
		
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I understand what you're saying but you're using a hybrid for the exact opposite its designed for.  No doubt you love your local trips to the supermarket ect.  If you had all electric you would make to to your campsite and back without the need to stop and charge.  Plus all electric can take a fast charge so you wouldn't have to walk back.


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## Robster59 (Aug 9, 2021)

hovis said:



			I understand what you're saying but you're using a hybrid for the exact opposite its designed for.  No doubt you love your local trips to the supermarket ect.  If you had all electric you would make to to your campsite and back without the need to stop and charge.  Plus all electric can take a fast charge so you wouldn't have to walk back.
		
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In what way am I using it for the exact opposite?  It's a company car so, practically for tax purposes, it was my best choice.
I charge it up at night at home and when being used locally it is nearly always on electric.  But it is a business car, so on longer runs I put it on hybrid to optimise it for economy.  My job covers UK and Ireland so the mileages I do vary tremendously. 
The caravan towing happens just occasionally.  Nearly all current all-electric cars are not suitable for towing, and it would deplete the factory much faster, and those that are I can't get on my list.  Also, travelling down we popped into Gretna services, and it was immensely busy and even getting to a charging point was a nightmare, if there was one available.


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## hovis (Aug 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			In what way am I using it for the exact opposite?  It's a company car so, practically for tax purposes, it was my best choice.
I charge it up at night at home and when being used locally it is nearly always on electric.  But it is a business car, so on longer runs I put it on hybrid to optimise it for economy.  My job covers UK and Ireland so the mileages I do vary tremendously. 
The caravan towing happens just occasionally.  Nearly all current all-electric cars are not suitable for towing, and it would deplete the factory much faster, and those that are I can't get on my list.  Also, travelling down we popped into Gretna services, and it was immensely busy and even getting to a charging point was a nightmare, if there was one available.
		
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I meant towing a caravan the opposite thing they are designed for. As for charging stations. Why do people think service stations are the only place to charge? They're are literally thousands away from services.   However, with a 300 mile range you rearly use them.   People just seem to look too hard to find an excuse not to own one.   If I can drive from Lichfield to Cornwall and back with no issues then so can anyone


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## Robster59 (Aug 9, 2021)

hovis said:



			I meant towing a caravan the opposite thing they are designed for. As for charging stations. Why do people think service stations are the only place to charge? They're are literally thousands away from services.   However, with a 300 mile range you rearly use them.   People just seem to look too hard to find an excuse not to own one.   If I can drive from Lichfield to Cornwall and back with no issues then so can anyone
		
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The caravan is a rare thing, and not what it was got for.  My original comment on this was to say it can be done.  I am not denying there are thousands away from services.  I am on ChargePlace Scotland (although that's in a bit of a mess at the moment as I was an hour on their help line with no answer on Saturday after trying to use the two charge points in Kelso.  One was not working and one wasn't communicating with the network) and know from their own map how many there are.  I am simply saying that the spread is not uniform throughout the UK.  I have nothing against electric cars, I will probably get my missus one as her next car as she doesn't do big mileages. 
I also think taking 40 minutes to charge a car is still too long.  I am sure it will get faster but on a long journey I don't tend to stop anywhere for that length of time.  I am in to get something to eat on the go and carry on.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 10, 2021)

Anyone watch Guy Martin last night? Could  put a lot of people off leccy. He found driving a Ionic 5 was very expensive to charge up on forecourts, and half of the chargers he had a problem with. His summation was it’s ok in a town but not if you have a long journey (he went to John o groats)


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## bobmac (Aug 10, 2021)

This would improve things.......
https://www.zap-map.com/tesla-superchargers-are-already-open-to-other-cars/


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## hovis (Aug 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			The caravan is a rare thing, and not what it was got for.  My original comment on this was to say it can be done.  I am not denying there are thousands away from services.  I am on ChargePlace Scotland (although that's in a bit of a mess at the moment as I was an hour on their help line with no answer on Saturday after trying to use the two charge points in Kelso.  One was not working and one wasn't communicating with the network) and know from their own map how many there are.  I am simply saying that the spread is not uniform throughout the UK.  I have nothing against electric cars, I will probably get my missus one as her next car as she doesn't do big mileages. 
I also think taking 40 minutes to charge a car is still too long.  I am sure it will get faster but on a long journey I don't tend to stop anywhere for that length of time.  I am in to get something to eat on the go and carry on.
		
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40 minutes to fuel a car is of course a long time.  However,  these are only on rare occasions when 300 miles isn't enough.  So for eg I drove to Cornwall from Lichfield and on the way back popped in for a 100 charge to get me home.  It took 20 minutes and was at a mcdonald's. 
Whilst I wait I just think how I'm saving £250 a month on my fuel bill.   All of a sudden 20 minutes whilst golloping down a big mac isn't so bad 😂


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 10, 2021)

Seen a prog on TV last night “worlds fastest Electric Car “and it said it can take up to a week to put out a fire in an EV.
The older batteries just keep on bubbling and reigniting .
More modern ones are better, but plenty of older ones still out there.
In Germany any Ev that goes on fire is put in a special skip full of water for a week.
That’s a bit scary.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			40 minutes to fuel a car is of course a long time.  However,  these are only on rare occasions when 300 miles isn't enough.  So for eg I drove to Cornwall from Lichfield and on the way back popped in for a 100 charge to get me home.  It took 20 minutes and was at a mcdonald's.
Whilst I wait I just think how I'm saving £250 a month on my fuel bill.   All of a sudden 20 minutes whilst golloping down a big mac isn't so bad 😂
		
Click to expand...

Or the lesser known part of the whole planned trips that far... You save a fortune .. rent a car for that one trip a year!

Nissan used to give you 3 free rentals a year


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## hovis (Aug 10, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Seen a prog on TV last night “worlds fastest Electric Car “and it said it can take up to a week to put out a fire in an EV.
The older batteries just keep on bubbling and reigniting .
More modern ones are better, but plenty of older ones still out there.
In Germany any Ev that goes on fire is put in a special skip full of water for a week.
That’s a bit scary.
		
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When you put out a Car fire you have to send control something called a "stop message".  This is simply to say the incident is closed.  With ev's we can't put a stop message in until the garage have told us they have a) put the car in a skip of water or b) put the car in a large open space.  I've personally attended 3 recognitions this year.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			When you put out a Car fire you have to send control something called a "stop message".  This is simply to say the incident is closed.  With ev's we can't put a stop message in until the garage have told us they have a) put the car in a skip of water or b) put the car in a large open space.  I've personally attended 3 recognitions this year.
		
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They don’t tell you that in the adverts.


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## hovis (Aug 10, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			They don’t tell you that in the adverts.
		
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It shouldn't bother you as an owner. ev or not the vehicle is taken away and is no longer your problem.   The scrap yard on the other hand 😬


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## Robster59 (Aug 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			40 minutes to fuel a car is of course a long time.  However,  these are only on rare occasions when 300 miles isn't enough.  So for eg I drove to Cornwall from Lichfield and on the way back popped in for a 100 charge to get me home.  It took 20 minutes and was at a mcdonald's.
Whilst I wait I just think how I'm saving £250 a month on my fuel bill.   All of a sudden 20 minutes whilst golloping down a big mac isn't so bad 😂
		
Click to expand...

If you like a Big Mac!


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			It shouldn't bother you as an owner. ev or not the vehicle is taken away and is no longer your problem.   The scrap yard on the other hand 😬
		
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Not if it’s parked outside your house in the first instance.
As it’s on a cable not that long.
Programme showed cars just bursting into flames as they were getting charged..
Have you seen any houses set alight by an EV ?


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			If you like a Big Mac! 

Click to expand...

EVs good for the environment bad for your waistline.


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## hovis (Aug 10, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not if it’s parked outside your house in the first instance.
As it’s on a cable not that long.
Programme showed cars just bursting into flames as they were getting charged..
Have you seen any houses set alight by an EV ?
		
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No. I've not been to a accidental fire involving an ev yet.  They've all been malicious.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			No. I've not been to a accidental fire involving an ev yet.  They've all been malicious.
		
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If you attend an RTA involving an ev is there any specific protocols that you have to follow? Last night’s program seemed to show the last thing you wanted to do was douse it in water. The amount of toxic gasses being belched out was frightening.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 10, 2021)

Ah can see it now .. car goes up charging middle of night.. heats up the air con unit and boom house is gone lol


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## Fade and Die (Aug 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ah can see it now .. car goes up charging middle of night.. heats up the air con unit and boom house is gone lol
		
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The ev fires looked pretty dramatic, like a blaze in a firework factory, bits whizzing off all over the place. Seriously if one of them was on your drive overnight you would be in real danger.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 10, 2021)

Interesting to see in London a good number of black cabs being electric. My abiding memory of London is black cabs with tractor engines, not literally, belching out black smoke 🤢. A big improvement 👍


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## Fade and Die (Aug 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting to see in London a good number of black cabs being electric. My abiding memory of London is black cabs with tractor engines, not literally, belching out black smoke 🤢. A big improvement 👍
		
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Yep my mate has one. Cost him £50k, then Covid came along and work dried up. He’s driving a skip lorry at the moment waiting for it to pick up again.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting to see in London a good number of black cabs being electric. My abiding memory of London is black cabs with tractor engines, not literally, belching out black smoke 🤢. A big improvement 👍
		
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Do if you mean the electric ones with a 1 ltr Nissan Micra engine in it to help recharge?
I haven't yet come across a cabby that likes them....especially the price of them.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2021)

Had a couple of test drives yesterday, Yaris and Corolla. Both drove beautifully, great pick-up from a standing and rolling start. Kicking out around 120bhp in a small car they both flew. The boot took the cases we’d taken with us, although the seat would have to be dropped for the clubs.

The order is in, and the car is in stock. €5.5k discount certainly helped close the deal.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yep my mate has one. Cost him £50k, then Covid came along and work dried up. He’s driving a skip lorry at the moment waiting for it to pick up again.
		
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Ouch, although that could have happened at replacement time anyway.



Bunkermagnet said:



			Do if you mean the electric ones with a 1 ltr Nissan Micra engine in it to help recharge?
I haven't yet come across a cabby that likes them....especially the price of them.
		
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I can understand that. Nice not to be chewing on fumes though. Black cabs were particularly polluting.

The solution is to mirror what happens in somewhere like Germany. Have any car model you like but have it in a distinctive colour, the Germans use cream. Restricting to one style automatically inflates the cost of the vehicle. I appreciate this is probably heresy to cab drivers but it's time to move on. (This could be phased in over time, it's hypothetical anyway)

Edit, a 1 ltr engine suggests petrol. Are they hybrids then rather than full electric? I can't see an exhaust pipe on them.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ouch, although that could have happened at replacement time anyway.


I can understand that. Nice not to be chewing on fumes though. Black cabs were particularly polluting.

The solution is to mirror what happens in somewhere like Germany. Have any car model you like but have it in a distinctive colour, the Germans use cream. Restricting to one style automatically inflates the cost of the vehicle. I appreciate this is probably heresy to cab drivers but it's time to move on. (This could be phased in over time, it's hypothetical anyway)

Edit, a 1 ltr engine suggests petrol. Are they hybrids then rather than full electric? I can't see an exhaust pipe on them.
		
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The 1ltr petrol engine is just acting as a generator.
The London black cab is strictly controlled, and has a series of mandatory requirements to be able to be passed For use. 1 requirement is a turning circle of 11 feet or something, which is why the Merc Vito conversions had rear wheel steer as well to allow the tight turning circle.


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## bobmac (Aug 11, 2021)

Here's some info on the newish black cab


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## hovis (Aug 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			If you attend an RTA involving an ev is there any specific protocols that you have to follow? Last night’s program seemed to show the last thing you wanted to do was douse it in water. The amount of toxic gasses being belched out was frightening.
		
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Yes.  Before we start cutting we have to cut an isolation loop with a Stanley blade.  Most are under the back seat and under the bonnet.  As for catching fire during following a rtc, we haven't got any specific guidance for that.  However, in 15 years I've yet to see a car catch fire significantly following a RTC.   Breathing apparatus is standard for all car fires anyway


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The 1ltr petrol engine is just acting as a generator.
The London black cab is strictly controlled, and has a series of mandatory requirements to be able to be passed For use. 1 requirement is a turning circle of 11 feet or something, which is why the Merc Vito conversions had rear wheel steer as well to allow the tight turning circle.
		
Click to expand...

It's one of those though, just because it's how it was and is doesn't mean it is how it should or could be. It's iconic for London but you don't see them elsewhere. There's a reason for that.

Anyway, I digress 😄


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## DannyOT (Aug 13, 2021)

Still loving our corsa EV after nearly 5 months. The reality of owning one and doing relatively big mileage is nowhere near as bad as expected, although it can be frustrating. 

The single biggest issue is the variation in charging infrastructure. If you stick to the bigger networks, it tends to be fine though. 

We did Manchester to Somerset, with plenty of driving whilst there and the charging worry was a non issue. 

I would never buy a combustion engined car again as the level of refinement in even the most basic EVs is so much better. Our other car always felt nice to drive but getting in it after driving the EV it just feels so agricultural.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			Still loving our corsa EV after nearly 5 months. The reality of owning one and doing relatively big mileage is nowhere near as bad as expected, although it can be frustrating.

The single biggest issue is the variation in charging infrastructure. If you stick to the bigger networks, it tends to be fine though.

We did Manchester to Somerset, with plenty of driving whilst there and the charging worry was a non issue.

I would never buy a combustion engined car again as the level of refinement in even the most basic EVs is so much better. Our other car always felt nice to drive but getting in it after driving the EV it just feels so agricultural.
		
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Yeah loving my Corsa e aswell. We use it for every trip that we can, ie just the two of us going out or taking eldest out 

But unfortunately we have to take the juggernaut when it's the 5 of us

Few more years I want to look at bigger EVs to try and help that issue 

Like you say lovely to drive and well refined


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## GreiginFife (Aug 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah loving my Corsa e aswell. We use it for every trip that we can, ie just the two of us going out or taking eldest out

But unfortunately we have to take the juggernaut when it's the 5 of us

Few more years I want to look at bigger EVs to try and help that issue

Like you say lovely to drive and *well refined*

Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by well refined? What exactly is it that's been refined over the "standard" Corsa?

I have been driving my mate's Tesla this week (he's got my M340) and having just signed up for the i4 when it's released next year, I am a bit concerned about how sterile driving the Tesla is. It feels like there is no connection to the drive at all. Yes it accelerates quickly but everything else just feels... boring and overly functional. I'm now in two minds about the i4.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 13, 2021)

I had a tentative look yesterday at electric cars. Flippin eck how much. I looked at an Hyundai not knowing the price. Starts at 40K.😳


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## DannyOT (Aug 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			What exactly do you mean by well refined? What exactly is it that's been refined over the "standard" Corsa?

I have been driving my mate's Tesla this week (he's got my M340) and having just signed up for the i4 when it's released next year, I am a bit concerned about how sterile driving the Tesla is. It feels like there is no connection to the drive at all. Yes it accelerates quickly but everything else just feels... boring and overly functional. I'm now in two minds about the i4.
		
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For me, the biggest differences are in power delivery and engine noise. 

Premium car manufacturers spent tons of money trying to stop unwanted engine noise and vibrations getting into the cabin. In our corsa, you get to sit in complete silence, without any vibration as standard. 

The power delivery is also much smoother and linear than even the best automatic ICE engined cars. The 8 speed auto in my brother's BMW is arguably one of the smoothest gearboxes there is, yet its still not as refined as EV motors.


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## tigerwes (Aug 13, 2021)

For me EV cars are nowhere near cost effective as yet.

My current car cost me £140 pm from new, the road tax is £0 and roughly put in around £50 of diesel pm.  I dont think i can find a EV car that


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## GreiginFife (Aug 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			For me, the biggest differences are in power delivery and engine noise.

Premium car manufacturers spent tons of money trying to stop unwanted engine noise and vibrations getting into the cabin. In our corsa, you *get to sit in complete silence*, without any vibration as standard.

The power delivery is also much smoother and linear than even the best automatic ICE engined cars. The 8 speed auto in my brother's BMW is arguably one of the smoothest gearboxes there is, yet its still not as refined as EV motors.
		
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Part in bold is what makes me feel so disconnected from the Tesla. I want a bit of engine noise, when I accelerate I want to _hear _the engine respond as well as _feel _the surge of acceleration. Part of the complete driving experience for me. I know you can get fake engine noise, but it's exactly that, fake. 

Power delivery is linear because it's, well, linear. Direct drive motors rather than geared so of course they will be smoother. 

I suppose it depends on the car itself as to how it's designed for noise. My car is designed to dampen road noise whilst still allowing the engine/exhaust noise to filter through giving that driver/car/drive connection.


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## DannyOT (Aug 13, 2021)

tigerwes said:



			For me EV cars are nowhere near cost effective as yet.

My current car cost me £140 pm from new, the road tax is £0 and roughly put in around £50 of diesel pm.  I dont think i can find a EV car that
		
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The only people saving money buying EVs are company car drivers who save massively on BIK tax.

I've worked out that based on our usage of around 15000miles a year, with roughly 13000 miles being charged at home, the cost to me over 5 years is about the same as the petrol equivalent. 

I'd never buy an EV to save money, its just a bonus that the running costs happen to be significantly lower than a petrol car.


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## DannyOT (Aug 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Part in bold is what makes me feel so disconnected from the Tesla. I want a bit of engine noise, when I accelerate I want to _hear _the engine respond as well as _feel _the surge of acceleration. Part of the complete driving experience for me. I know you can get fake engine noise, but it's exactly that, fake.

Power delivery is linear because it's, well, linear. Direct drive motors rather than geared so of course they will be smoother.

I suppose it depends on the car itself as to how it's designed for noise. My car is designed to dampen road noise whilst still allowing the engine/exhaust noise to filter through giving that driver/car/drive connection.
		
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Oh I agree. EVs clearly don't provide the same driving experience if you like a spirited drive. Give me a decent manual petrol any day. 

EVs are a very refined tool for getting you from A to B, as quietly and simply as possible. They are also great for getting away from lights at junctions and getting good parking spots in city centres.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



			Oh I agree. EVs clearly don't provide the same driving experience if you like a spirited drive. Give me a decent manual petrol any day.

EVs are a very refined tool for getting you from A to B, as quietly and simply as possible. They are also great for getting away from lights at junctions and getting good* parking spots in city centres*.
		
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This, to me at the moment, is the plus. My current car is 0-62 in 4.4 sec so isn't a slouch away from junctions or lights (in fact the Tesla isn't that much quicker TBH - unless set in "Insane Mode" but then the range takes a massive hit). 

I'm hoping that Hans Zimmer has done a good job on the i4's "sound track" and it doesn't sound too fake as it may well put me off.


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## bobmac (Aug 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I had a tentative look yesterday at electric cars. Flippin eck how much. I looked at an Hyundai not knowing the price. Starts at 40K.😳
		
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Other Hyundais are available.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...ius=1500&make=HYUNDAI&postcode=ng348xf&page=1


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## Robster59 (Aug 13, 2021)

DannyOT said:



*The only people saving money buying EVs are company car drivers who save massively on BIK tax*.

I've worked out that based on our usage of around 15000miles a year, with roughly 13000 miles being charged at home, the cost to me over 5 years is about the same as the petrol equivalent.

I'd never buy an EV to save money, it's just a bonus that the running costs happen to be significantly lower than a petrol car.
		
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The BIK was the USP when it came to getting my Superb hybrid.  It was saving me a few thousand a year so was an absolute no-brainer. 
I'd agree on the refinement, as it you can tell the difference in the quietness inside the car when on electric.  Not that the petrol engine is noisy, but there is a difference. 
And the pickup from start is also very good on electric.  If you push hard or put it into sport mode then it combines both powertrains and it can really shift. 
You do have to remember that at slow speeds when it is just on electric, it is very quiet and pedestrians and cyclists don't always know you're there.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			What exactly do you mean by well refined? What exactly is it that's been refined over the "standard" Corsa?

I have been driving my mate's Tesla this week (he's got my M340) and having just signed up for the i4 when it's released next year, I am a bit concerned about how sterile driving the Tesla is. It feels like there is no connection to the drive at all. Yes it accelerates quickly but everything else just feels... boring and overly functional. I'm now in two minds about the i4.
		
Click to expand...

Smooth driving experience, grips the road well with the weight of it


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## hovis (Aug 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I had a tentative look yesterday at electric cars. Flippin eck how much. I looked at an Hyundai not knowing the price. Starts at 40K.😳
		
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What one was you looking at?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 13, 2021)

hovis said:



			What one was you looking at?
		
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I think I was the autocar top 10 electric cars. Because I have not got a clue, I thought well I have to start somewhere. Looked at an Hyundai that looked quite nice. £41k plus later I thought I will give it a miss.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 16, 2021)

Just been informed by BMW that anticipated delivery of the i4 M50 is now more likely to be September to December 2022 (that's quite a range). So slipped from June to July and now Sept/Dec... 

In the meantime, I have just ordered an orange 840i Gran Coupe to have some fun between now and then


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 16, 2021)

If a car I want is not available for 18 months I’d tell them to stuff it.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 16, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If a car I want is not available for 18 months I’d tell them to stuff it.
		
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In part fairness, they haven't even started building the i4 M50s yet. But the original target date is starting to slip.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			In part fairness, they haven't even started building the i4 M50s yet. But the original target date is starting to slip.
		
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It might also be down to the shortage of micro chips


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## GreiginFife (Aug 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It might also be down to the shortage of micro chips
		
Click to expand...

It possibly is. But hard to tell with builds not "officially" beginning until Feb 2022 for the M50.


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## Smiffy (Aug 18, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			What exactly do you mean by well refined? *What exactly is it that's been refined over the "standard" Corsa?*

Click to expand...

It's now made by Peugeot....


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## harpo_72 (Aug 18, 2021)

I looked into EV BIK advantage but given our Fiesta is 7 yes old cost £0 tax and has just reached 40k miles … the wife doesn’t see the point in releasing funds from the business to pay given it will incur a steady £300-£600 monthly cost (although tax deductible) . So we are sitting tight ! 

Bit boring though  but I cannot see us saving more than we are currently


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## Matty6 (Sep 18, 2021)

Any etron suv owners on here? Don’t need a significant amount of range, so seems to fit the bill.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 18, 2021)

Matty6 said:



			Any etron suv owners on here? Don’t need a significant amount of range, so seems to fit the bill.
		
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Havnt driven the Etron but have my mates VW iD4 about the same size .
Jeez what a machine it’s awesome and worth a look.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 18, 2021)

Drove a Hyundai Ioniq 5 the other day

Wow just Wow


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## Imurg (Sep 18, 2021)

https://www.driving.org/charge-points-to-be-switched-off-for-nine-hours-a-day-to-protect-grid/


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## bobmac (Sep 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



https://www.driving.org/charge-points-to-be-switched-off-for-nine-hours-a-day-to-protect-grid/

Click to expand...

Chargers switched off during peak hours, motorways/A roads/fast chargers will NOT be turned off.
Besides, who on earth wants to charge their car at peak rate?
If everyone changed to electric cars overnight, and all charged their cars at peak rate, then yes, the national grid would struggle.
But that's not going to happen.
The grid's capacity will grow as electric car numbers grow


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## Smiffy (Sep 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



https://www.driving.org/charge-points-to-be-switched-off-for-nine-hours-a-day-to-protect-grid/

Click to expand...

There's always doom and gloom no matter what comes along
🤔🤔🤔


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## bobmac (Sep 18, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Drove a Hyundai Ioniq 5 the other day

Wow just Wow
		
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Wait till it's big brother comes out


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## Imurg (Sep 18, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			There's always doom and gloom no matter what comes along
🤔🤔🤔
		
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Seeing as access to charging is one of the major obstacles that many people have it seems to be relevant. 
And to answer Bob's question...someone who is low on charge and needs to plug in now needs to do it now regardless of what time of day it is.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Wait till it's big brother comes out







Click to expand...

Think this will replace my e208. If the GT version is well priced anyway.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Seeing as access to charging is one of the major obstacles that many people have it seems to be relevant.
And to answer Bob's question...someone who is low on charge and needs to plug in now needs to do it now regardless of what time of day it is.
		
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I'm sure what will more likely happen rather than this scaremongering is that chargers will be programmed to start later unless you override them

I have mine set up like this. It won't draw before 01:30 unless I override it


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## bobmac (Sep 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			And to answer Bob's question...*someone* who is low on charge and needs to plug in now needs to do it now regardless of what time of day it is.
		
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I repeat...
If *everyone* changed to electric cars overnight, and *all charged their cars at peak rate*, then yes, the national grid would struggle.
This will not happen as
1. The whole country will not change to EVs tomorrow
2. Every EV driver will not charge their car at peak rate
3. The grid will continue to expand it's usage of renewable energy over the next decade as it is the cheapest, cleanest and sustainable source of energy available.

_The cost of renewable technologies like wind and solar is falling significantly, according to a new report._
_This is fuelling the rise of renewables as the world’s cheapest source of energy._
_The cost of large-scale solar projects has plunged 85% in a decade._
_Retiring costly coal plants would also cut around three gigatonnes of CO2 a year._
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/renewables-cheapest-energy-source/

4. Less fossil fuels burned
5. Cleaner air for future generations of children to breathe.
6. Slow down climate change

And as someone once said, Wow, just wow, fun to drive


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## Imurg (Sep 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I repeat...
If *everyone* changed to electric cars overnight, and *all charged their cars at peak rate*, then yes, the national grid would struggle.
This will not happen as
1. The whole country will not change to EVs tomorrow
2. Every EV driver will not charge their car at peak rate
3. The grid will continue to expand it's usage of renewable energy over the next decade as it is the cheapest, cleanest and sustainable source of energy available.

_The cost of renewable technologies like wind and solar is falling significantly, according to a new report._
_This is fuelling the rise of renewables as the world’s cheapest source of energy._
_The cost of large-scale solar projects has plunged 85% in a decade._
_Retiring costly coal plants would also cut around three gigatonnes of CO2 a year._
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/renewables-cheapest-energy-source/

4. Less fossil fuels burned
5. Cleaner air for future generations of children to breathe.
6. Slow down climate change

And as someone once said, Wow, just wow, fun to drive
		
Click to expand...

No argument to that.
The question was Who on earth wants to charge their car at peak rate?
The answer stands.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 19, 2021)

I'm surprised this has been brought up, but then again perhap's I'm not..Power supply cut through fire


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## pauljames87 (Sep 19, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm surprised this has been brought up, but then again perhap's I'm not..Power supply cut through fire

Click to expand...

Be very interested to see the affect of this on my energy deal come November 

ATM I pay 14p (5.5 at night) the fixed rates for 2 years (only one that came up for octopus on their site) was 24p .. that would be awful... However when you ask their current price for the go tariff (for the car) it's 15 and 5.5 which wouldn't be as bad but still a rise 

It doesn't let on the gas price as much (2.5 ATM I think) however if Goes too high I'll stick the heat pumps on 

It's almost like a perfect storm of the b word , covid and now just bad luck is stuffing our nation


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



*I'm surprised this has been brought up,* *but then again perhap's I'm not*..Power supply cut through fire

Click to expand...

What's that supposed to mean?


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## pauljames87 (Sep 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What's that supposed to mean?
		
Click to expand...

I have to admit I hadn't seen that fire. It's worrying for sure 

We as a nation rely too much on others we need to invest in our own power plants


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## Fade and Die (Sep 19, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I'm surprised this has been brought up, but then again perhap's I'm not..Power supply cut through fire

Click to expand...

I saw this earlier in the week and saw we were firing up a mothballed coal fired power station. That’s disappointing. We need to build nuclear power stations and pronto. And not rely on the Chinese or the French to do it for us.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I saw this earlier in the week and saw we were firing up a mothballed coal fired power station. That’s disappointing. We need to build nuclear power stations and pronto. And not rely on the Chinese or the French to do it for us.
		
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The head of octopus energy pretty much said the same. Said the lack of investment by the government in green energy will cost us long term

Standard tho. First thing to be cut is public services , think of all the jobs that could be created


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I saw this earlier in the week and saw we were firing up a mothballed coal fired power station. That’s disappointing. We need to build nuclear power stations and pronto. And not rely on the Chinese or the French to do it for us.
		
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So we need to admit and accept we don't have the  capability to  support the current stated aim of EV only new sales in just over 8 years. It takes longer than that to go throught the planning stages for a new power station, let alone actually having a finished article.


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## cliveb (Sep 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I saw this earlier in the week and saw we were firing up a mothballed coal fired power station. That’s disappointing. We need to build nuclear power stations and pronto. And not rely on the Chinese or the French to do it for us.
		
Click to expand...

We certainly need to find a way to switch off power stations that burn fossil fuels, but I think nuclear isn't the way forward (unless a breakthrough is made with fusion). The problem of decommissioning fission reactors is something we really could do without.

If you were to commission a new nuclear power station today, by the time it was built we'll probably have solved the storage problem that is the major issue surrounding renewables like wind and solar.


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So we need to admit and accept we don't have the  capability to  support the current stated aim of EV only new sales in just over 8 years. It takes longer than that to go throught the planning stages for a new power station, let alone actually having a finished article.
		
Click to expand...

Hinkley Point C was granted its licence in 2012. It is supposed to start producing electricity in 2026, £500m over budget.

I'd rather see a gradual increase in renewable energy which will match the gradual increase of EVs, especially as the cost of sustainable, clean, renewable energy is still falling.
And of course, 2030 is just when the ban on selling new ICE cars comes into affect (2035 for some hybrids) and judging by the resistance of some on here, there will be many who will keep their ICE cars well into 2040.

*''Impact of EVs on the electricity network infrastructure*

_While much has been made of the impact that the increase in EV numbers will have on the grid, the reality is far less exciting. *The grid has more than enough capacity at present to accommodate the expected increase in demand*; and to a certain extent, technologies can be deployed to help moderate the peaks. In addition, a much heavier demand on the grid will come from the electrification of heat, over the same period, which will require up to three times as much capacity as EV charging.''_ 

_https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pag...-infrastructure-update-show-me-the-money.html_


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## pauljames87 (Sep 20, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So we need to admit and accept we don't have the  capability to  support the current stated aim of EV only new sales in just over 8 years. It takes longer than that to go throught the planning stages for a new power station, let alone actually having a finished article.
		
Click to expand...

 No, this issue is caused by a fire that has closed the vital link in power supply from France to England 

We need to build our own network whilst still using the supply from France until a time we can use that cable Just as a back up 

A fire that shuts down a cable until march is a rare situation .. without the fire we would be fine 👍


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## PNWokingham (Sep 20, 2021)

Rolls Royce has been proposing a new style of small nuclear power plants that are much cheaper - circa £1bn each I think. It is home grown proven technology. The government needs to stop procrastinating and back this now and get 20 or 30 built across the country rather than relying on French and Chinese tech. Also back the Swansea and Cardiff Bay wave power projects. No issue with no wind here and we could be global leaders. We have a massive advantage with our coast line and the large tidals


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## bobmac (Sep 20, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			No issue with no wind here and we could be global leaders. We have a massive advantage with our coast line and the large tidals
		
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We are.
_“The UK is the world leader in offshore wind, with the largest installed capacity and projects like Hornsea Two are helping the country to make significant strides towards the government’s legally binding net zero targets. _

https://www.business-live.co.uk/ports-logistics/1000-offshore-wind-turbines-now-20881169


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## SatchFan (Sep 20, 2021)

I think James May had the right idea a few years ago.


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## larmen (Sep 20, 2021)

The issue with inconsistency, isn't than an issue with storage?
Solar only during teh day, usage (domestic) mostly during the evening.

I think you a house you might need 2 Tesla storage walls or equivalent? That's a chunk of money. Or you store centrally somewhere/somehow.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			We are.
_“The UK is the world leader in offshore wind, with the largest installed capacity and projects like Hornsea Two are helping the country to make significant strides towards the government’s legally binding net zero targets. _

https://www.business-live.co.uk/ports-logistics/1000-offshore-wind-turbines-now-20881169

Click to expand...

We have done a great job with wind but it is still not the most reliable. I was referring to doing the same with small nuclear plants and tidal power.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			We are.
_“The UK is the world leader in offshore wind, with the largest installed capacity and projects like Hornsea Two are helping the country to make significant strides towards the government’s legally binding net zero targets. _

https://www.business-live.co.uk/ports-logistics/1000-offshore-wind-turbines-now-20881169

Click to expand...

If thats the case, why is a reduction in wind turbine output due to recent  lower wind speeds and strength also being blamed for the lecy crisis that going on right now?
Thats according to the boss of Ecotricity when talking about it on the radio


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2021)

The UK and Netherlands seem to be the two countries that are forging ahead of others in terms of offshore wind energy, with Germany playing catch up and other European countries lagging well behind. The UK has the EA Hub off the coast of Suffolk as well as the Vattenfall Boreas and Vanguard wind farms going in off the Norfolk coast, in addition to the Hornsea projects and all the existing sites such as Sheringham Shoal, Greater Gabbard, London Array and Dogger Bank. The Netherlands have the Holland Kust Zuid wind farm which is under construction and due to come online in 2023, which will become the world's biggest offshore wind farm when it comes online, as well as HK Nord and HK West which have been surveyed ready for construction to start.

If they can resolve the issue of energy storage from these wind farms for the days when there is either not enough or too much wind then our energy needs should be sorted for many years to come, or at least for long enough to see me through to retirement.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 21, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Just moved away from Agile, the prices have been a bit crazy lately, many hours at 35p kw/h. When we joined it was really cheap especially at the March lockdown time but has got increasingly expensive since then, we were paying more than a standard tariff at the end. Moved to Go Faster which will be less stressful as it hardly ever goes under 5p lately and it's just a normal price at other times. You have to take the good with the bad with Agile, there was several times we were paid to charge the car, sometimes paying us over 25p kw/h.
		
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Cheers for tip on go faster

Turns out cuz of that I'm locked price wise until Feb so I can use the heat pumps instead the gas


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## pool888 (Sep 22, 2021)

Glad I'm not on Agile just now, wouldn't even be able to make a cup of tea, it's around 35p for the whole day even 00:30 - 05:00.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 22, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Glad I'm not on Agile just now, wouldn't even be able to make a cup of tea, it's around 35p for the whole day even 00:30 - 05:00.
		
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Awful isn't it, I feel for those who can't afford to fix their deal


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## pool888 (Sep 22, 2021)

Gas at over 6p/kwh at wholesale price as well, could be a tough winter for everyone especially the elderly and vulnerable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 22, 2021)

So these new energy’s prices ( mine has gone from £60 a month to £110 😲) - wonder what that means for the cost effectiveness of electric cars


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## pauljames87 (Sep 22, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Gas at over 6p/kwh at wholesale price as well, could be a tough winter for everyone especially the elderly and vulnerable.
		
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I'm now especially glad we got the air con done, can just run the heat pump mode and heat the house save using gas at stupid prices


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## pauljames87 (Sep 23, 2021)

Well it wasn't long before the hgv shortage affected petrol supplies 

Won't just be electric on the rise 

We all going to need 20% payrises


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well it wasn't long before the hgv shortage affected petrol supplies

Won't just be electric on the rise

We all going to need 20% payrises
		
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That wont be for long. Fuel delivery drivers, to big stations, are well paid, not long distance, do single drops. It is easy street in that game. If there is a genuine shortage then it will be quickly filled by other drivers. The media are creating a problem in this instance, how unlike them. The BP issue is temporary and short term, others are not affected.


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## pool888 (Sep 24, 2021)

Yes will be short term but you need ADR training to drive a tanker so positions are not so easily filled as most drivers don't have the certificates.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2021)

pool888 said:



			Yes will be short term but you need ADR training to drive a tanker so positions are not so easily filled as most drivers don't have the certificates.
		
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Completly. I bet there are plenty of drivers working for the smaller oil companies who deliver to domestics, industrial, farming etc who are on the phone right now though. I worked for such a company many years ago and they always looked at the single drop tanker guys with envy. I know you can't go from delivering pallets of garden furniture to fuel, but I didn't want to get too wordy in what I put. It's very fair to point that out though


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That wont be for long. Fuel delivery drivers, to big stations, are well paid, not long distance, do single drops. It is easy street in that game. If there is a genuine shortage then it will be quickly filled by other drivers. The media are creating a problem in this instance, how unlike them. The BP issue is temporary and short term, others are not affected.
		
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Just wait 

Penny at the pumps which this will cause plus the gas prices will smash inflation

All contracts linked to cpi etc are going to be hammered with rises .. people are going to struggle


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## harpo_72 (Sep 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So these new energy’s prices ( mine has gone from £60 a month to £110 😲) - wonder what that means for the cost effectiveness of electric cars
		
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Let’s be honest here the end game was to get all the public to electric thinking they can charge their new eco cars at off peak and save a fortune. But the big electric suppliers saw how much we pay for fuel and they saw profit that was huge as the off peak will disappear.
Couple this with organisations demanding employee attendance when actually it’s not required … mr small is getting a right good rogering. 
Government needs to kill profit margins on the service providers and ask for dedicated accounts for total expenditure plus maintenance programs and their completion etc .. or put it simply make everyone work for their money and not a select few, as they cannot support those that won’t or have not contributed enough.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Let’s be honest here the end game was to get all the public to electric thinking they can charge their new eco cars at off peak and save a fortune. But the big electric suppliers saw how much we pay for fuel and they saw profit that was huge as the off peak will disappear.
Couple this with organisations demanding employee attendance when actually it’s not required … mr small is getting a right good rogering.
Government needs to kill profit margins on the service providers and ask for dedicated accounts for total expenditure plus maintenance programs and their completion etc .. or put it simply make everyone work for their money and not a select few, as they cannot support those that won’t or have not contributed enough.
		
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Plus even if the price of electric goes up it's still a lot cheaper 

£10 per 200 miles more would 20p per kw more than now be 

With fuel only going one way aswell


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## harpo_72 (Sep 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Plus even if the price of electric goes up it's still a lot cheaper

£10 per 200 miles more would 20p per kw more than now be

With fuel only going one way aswell
		
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So they will jack it up further they have a huge margin


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So they will jack it up further they have a huge margin
		
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Eventually you expect that 

24p ATM is what a fixed deal is quoted at 

However prices will come down once the cable from France is fixed 

They will price is almost same as petrol long term


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 24, 2021)

If I didn’t have an electric car, today I would be saying “I wish had an electric car”.
Forecourts are chocka on the way home and typical herd mentality is everyone queue.
If I had a petrol I’d be going to fill up at night instead.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			If I didn’t have an electric car, today I would be saying “I wish had an electric car”.
Forecourts are chocka on the way home and typical herd mentality is everyone queue.
If I had a petrol I’d be going to fill up at night instead.
		
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Round our way mates wife just called him saying all the forecourts sold out 

Crying out loud


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## Matty6 (Sep 24, 2021)

Matty6 said:



			Any etron suv owners on here? Don’t need a significant amount of range, so seems to fit the bill.
		
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Etron ordered! Won’t be getting it until Feb/March next year though.


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## AliMc (Sep 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Round our way mates wife just called him saying all the forecourts sold out

Crying out loud
		
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What are you all like down there, just passed a couple of stations on the way back from Edinburgh forecourts virtually empty


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## harpo_72 (Sep 24, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			If I didn’t have an electric car, today I would be saying “I wish had an electric car”.
Forecourts are chocka on the way home and typical herd mentality is everyone queue.
If I had a petrol I’d be going to fill up at night instead.
		
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I was thinking that last night , had my eye on an ID3 as that might satisfy the wife and just up the size of the current car.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			If I didn’t have an electric car, today I would be saying “I wish had an electric car”.
Forecourts are chocka on the way home and typical herd mentality is everyone queue.
If I had a petrol I’d be going to fill up at night instead.
		
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The irony of they queue for half hour for something that takes "5 mins" and is one of the main advantages over electric


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## IanM (Sep 24, 2021)

If I had an eclectic car I'd be sitting at Membury Services waiting for it to charge up so I could get home!


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## DanFST (Sep 24, 2021)

I need petrol for an away match tommorow, will have to go late at night. Idiots.


Couldn't get an electric car tho, nowhere to charge it.


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## D-S (Sep 27, 2021)

Interesting to see what happens when the whole country has ‘range anxiety’.


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## bobmac (Sep 27, 2021)

Everyone will know who's driving an EV buy the smug smile


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## D-S (Sep 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Everyone will know who's driving an EV buy the smug smile

View attachment 38704

Click to expand...

They already did 😉


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## road2ruin (Oct 26, 2021)

I was planning on changing my car next year however with the wait list for new cars being so long (Mar/Apr 2022 being amongst the earliest) I have decided to start the process now. 

I am likely to go all electric as we do fairly low mileage with the 'big car' and it's really only the annual trip to Cornwall that would take any sort of planning, the rest of the drives would easily be covered by a full charge.

This weekend we are off to test drive;

Hyundai Ioniq 5
Skoda Enyaq
VW ID.4
Audi Q4 e-tron

The Hyundai is my favourite at the moment although haven't sat in any of them yet, will see what the weekend brings.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 26, 2021)

@road2ruin You may have looked and dismissed it but Kia are advertising their EV6 a lot on tv at the moment and it looks a pretty car to be in with a very respectably range. Perhaps worth a look?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was planning on changing my car next year however with the wait list for new cars being so long (Mar/Apr 2022 being amongst the earliest) I have decided to start the process now.

I am likely to go all electric as we do fairly low mileage with the 'big car' and it's really only the annual trip to Cornwall that would take any sort of planning, the rest of the drives would easily be covered by a full charge.

This weekend we are off to test drive;

Hyundai Ioniq 5
Skoda Enyaq
VW ID.4
Audi Q4 e-tron

The Hyundai is my favourite at the moment although haven't sat in any of them yet, will see what the weekend brings.
		
Click to expand...

skoda for me

if you could push it the telsa model y coming next year


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## road2ruin (Oct 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



@road2ruin You may have looked and dismissed it but Kia are advertising their EV6 a lot on tv at the moment and it looks a pretty car to be in with a very respectably range. Perhaps worth a look?
		
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That's a good call actually, not sure why it didn't make the list as it does tick a lot of the boxes and I will have a look at it. Thanks for pointing that one out.


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## road2ruin (Oct 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			skoda for me

if you could push it the telsa model y coming next year
		
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I do like the Tesla but give the size of car that we're aiming for when I've had a look at the potential costs it just pushes it out of budget a lot of the time.


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## Robster59 (Oct 26, 2021)

The bloke who bought our caravan at the weekend says he has a Tesla, but he won't be using for towing.  He reckons that although it's advertised as having a range of 400+ miles, he's lucky to get much more than 300 during normal driving.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			That's a good call actually, not sure why it didn't make the list as it does tick a lot of the boxes and I will have a look at it. Thanks for pointing that one out.
		
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EV6 and Ioniq pretty much the same. Maybe place an order for this beast?


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

Mclaren 570S if driven carefully (why would you)  range of 360 miles  *KIA 313*
£100 to fill   *KIA £10-£30*
30p per mile.  KIA 3p
Second hand price... 2020 £123,000+   *KIA BRAND NEW £44,000*
Seats 2   *KIA 5*
Boot 150 L   *KIA 490L (seats up)*
Froot unknown


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			EV6 and Ioniq pretty much the same. Maybe place an order for this beast?







Click to expand...

Must admit I was impressed by the noise of the engine and the roar from the exhaust of the battery car that won👍


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2021)

For those who may be interested in the future...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2021)




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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 39197

Click to expand...

I believe he backtracked on this before he died.

He was also increasingly isolated on the subject. As we know with Covid, scientists frequently disagree, a shock to all of us who thought science was factual, but the numbers on each side of this debate are becoming increasingly loaded on one side and Bellamy was on the other side.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe he backtracked on this before he died.
		
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I believe there is a lot of truth in what he says though - I don’t think there will be much that can be done beyond token gestures - the world will keep changing.
I would rather they look at what they throw into water as a priority


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe there is a lot of truth in what he says though - I don’t think there will be much that can be done beyond token gestures - the world will keep changing.
I would rather they look at what they throw into water as a priority
		
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So you believe the increase in temperature of the planet is a natural occurrence and we shouldn't worry about it as it's not a problem?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe there is a lot of truth in what he says though - I don’t think there will be much that can be done beyond token gestures - the world will keep changing.
I would rather they look at what they throw into water as a priority
		
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I think that disucssion is an entirely different thread so one to leave alone on here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So you believe the increase in temperature of the planet is a natural occurrence and we shouldn't worry about it as it's not a problem?
		
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https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-...ly-and-why-things-are-different-now-20200721/

There are a multiple number of reasons for the climate to change over the centuries and it’s a combination of organically and human causes - the earth has increased by 1 degree since 1900 and by 2100 it will be another 2 - an increase is still going to happen even if humans disappeared 

Is it a problem - yes there will be a problem in a couple hundred years , how much of problem who knows but right now there will lots treaties and promises etc but I think it will token and Mother Nature will win 

As i said I would money spent on water pollution or protecting animals etc


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## DaveR (Oct 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Mclaren 570S if driven carefully (why would you)  range of 360 miles  *KIA 313*
£100 to fill   *KIA £10-£30*
30p per mile.  KIA 3p
Second hand price... 2020 £123,000+   *KIA BRAND NEW £44,000*
Seats 2   *KIA 5*
Boot 150 L   *KIA 490L (seats up)*
Froot unknown
		
Click to expand...

🤣

What a totally pointless thing to post. You are comparing apples with sausage rolls.


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2021)

DaveR said:



			🤣

What a totally pointless thing to post. You are comparing apples with sausage rolls.
		
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I was merely pointing out that the only car to beat the Kia was small, impractical and very expensive to buy and run.
For roughly a 1/3 of the cost, you can still have a very fast car with all the luxuries and space and seats for all the family


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## bobmac (Oct 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As i said I would money spent on water pollution or protecting animals etc
		
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So you're happy for mankind to continue pumping 10,000,000,000 tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year and let future generations worry about it if indeed there is a problem at all


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So you're happy for mankind to continue pumping 10,000,000,000 tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year and let future generations worry about it if indeed there is a problem at all
		
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I didn’t believe I said I was happy anywhere - but let’s be honest we will always all be contributing unless you have a fully eco house and don’t use one single bit of technology- you will contribute every single day of your life regardless of what is put in place


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## Captainron (Oct 27, 2021)

I’ve often wondered how much CO2 was pumped out back in the industrial revolution. They burned so much coal and wood that the smogs in London were toxic and caused loss of life.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 27, 2021)

What Car's December edition has a review of the Tesla Model Y. It shows a shot of the "dashboard" from drivers position.

I've never seen such an utterly soulless bland "cockpit". Truly awful.


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## bobmac (Oct 28, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			What Car's December edition has a review of the Tesla Model Y. It shows a shot of the "dashboard" from drivers position.

I've never seen such an utterly soulless bland "cockpit". Truly awful.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, but many like it.
I've seen better


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## bobmac (Oct 28, 2021)

The Kia EV6 isn't too bad, especially with the phone charger, start button and gear selector being so close together. Get in, put down your phone, start the car and select gear AND less obtrusive air vents (hate those things)


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2021)

New sport centres car park has finally opened

10 new charging spaces with 5 units (1 unit each side) podpoint ... Free of charge 

However they painted 11 bays lol only 10 points double checked on app

Defo the way forward


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## road2ruin (Oct 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was planning on changing my car next year however with the wait list for new cars being so long (Mar/Apr 2022 being amongst the earliest) I have decided to start the process now.

I am likely to go all electric as we do fairly low mileage with the 'big car' and it's really only the annual trip to Cornwall that would take any sort of planning, the rest of the drives would easily be covered by a full charge.

This weekend we are off to test drive;

Hyundai Ioniq 5
Skoda Enyaq
VW ID.4
Audi Q4 e-tron

The Hyundai is my favourite at the moment although haven't sat in any of them yet, will see what the weekend brings.
		
Click to expand...

First test drive done today, Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate AWD. Really liked it, was like driving a spaceship. Also like the slightly retro look. Was surprising as well, all the pics make it look like a hatchback but it’s got a far bigger boot than our S4 Avant. Will go for the 305bhp version if I press the button. 

Bar has been set high for the others!!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			First test drive done today, Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate AWD. Really liked it, was like driving a spaceship. Also like the slightly retro look. Was surprising as well, all the pics make it look like a hatchback but it’s got a far bigger boot than our S4 Avant. Will go for the 305bhp version if I press the button.

Bar has been set high for the others!!
		
Click to expand...

Keep us posted, very interested in all the models of ev.  

Love driving mine just would like a little bigger


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2021)

3 weeks into the Toyota Yaris hybrid. Fab on local runs at just under 80mpg but only marginally better on a couple of motorway runs over the weekend.

1.5 3 cylinder petrol engine with electric ‘on top.’ Most local journeys are 100% electric bar a couple of steep hills. It manages the hills fine but needs the petrol engine to kick in.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			3 weeks into the Toyota Yaris hybrid. Fab on local runs at just under 80mpg but only marginally better on a couple of motorway runs over the weekend.

1.5 3 cylinder petrol engine with electric ‘on top.’ Most local journeys are 100% electric bar a couple of steep hills. It manages the hills fine but needs the petrol engine to kick in.
		
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We are way behind . All this banning after 2030 and 2035 we should have banned non hybrids years before and had more of a period with hybrid's as the option 

I had my auris from 2012-2018 it never skipped a beat and was so efficient


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## DavidOstrech (Nov 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''You’ll find electric charging bays at Tesco Extra and Tesco Superstore sites throughout the UK*, the majority of which are free-to-use* 7kW fast chargers. Other 22kW and 50kW rapid chargers are ‘priced in line with market rates’'_

_https://www.motoringelectric.com/charging/how-find-nearest-tesco-electric-charging-point/_

_Ecotricity, which provides charging points at all motorway services in the UK, charges about £6 for a 45-minute recharge with a rapid charger. In a Nissan Leaf, this should fill up the battery to 80% of its full range. _

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/electric-car-charging-guide/n18056

Click to expand...

What if you want a charging device for your home with more than 11kW? It seems that, in my country (UK), you have to upgrade to three phase first, which is very very costly to do this.

_"For charging speeds of 11kW or more, a household *must have a three-phase electricity supply [...], *costing between £3,000 and £15,000. "_

_Source_


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 2, 2021)

DavidOstrech said:



			What if you want a charging device for your home with more than 11kW? It seems that, in my country (UK), you have to upgrade to three phase first, which is very very costly to do this.

_"For charging speeds of 11kW or more, a household *must have a three-phase electricity supply [...], *costing between £3,000 and £15,000. "_

_Source_

Click to expand...

This is incorrect, we are having a charger installed at our Office, which is currently 2 phase, they can do something with the consumer unit which makes it 3 phase and they are charging £68 plus VAT for it


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## GreiginFife (Nov 2, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This is incorrect, we are having a charger installed at our Office, which is currently 2 phase, they can do something with the consumer unit which makes it 3 phase and they are charging £68 plus VAT for it
		
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3 Phase to a commercial property is a different proposition to 3P to a domestic property.

I wanted to install a commercial cabinet saw in my workshop and was quoted £2500 for the work to give me a 3P capabiility.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2021)

No idea what any of the above means and everyone in our rural part of Monmouthshire will be sticking to diesel 4x4s for when it snows and we we need to do long journeys.

One hippy in our road installed a charger and it took half his street down.  Western Power had to come out and upgrade a thingie so folk could eat!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 3, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			3 Phase to a commercial property is a different proposition to 3P to a domestic property.

I wanted to install a commercial cabinet saw in my workshop and was quoted £2500 for the work to give me a 3P capabiility.
		
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Our office premises were originally domestic, until about 3 years ago when change of use was granted, so it figures that the leccy supply was also domestic and therefore easier to upgrade


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## GreiginFife (Nov 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Our office premises were originally domestic, until about 3 years ago when change of use was granted, so it figures that the leccy supply was also domestic and therefore easier to upgrade
		
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It's possible that, as part of the change of use, an upgraded supply to building was installed to enable each office to have it's own supply and therefore yes it would be easier and cheaper to upgrade as the infrastructure is there.
Upgrading to 3P isn't just a case of plugging a box in and away you go. If you are being charged £68 + vat for the infrastructure work that's involved then more power to your elbow but I'd be seriously questioning it. 

My statement of work from when I enquired required a trench being dug from my home to the supply line, a 3P distribution box being installed on the outside of the building and a new CU for the workshop. £2100 + VAT was the total quote. Guy was saying that a property nearby in the village (an old rectory house) had an upgrade last year and it was £10k due to the length of the garden and the trenching required. 

Good luck with the £80 odd quid box though.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Our office premises were originally domestic, until about 3 years ago when change of use was granted, so it figures that the leccy supply was also domestic and therefore easier to upgrade
		
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Only way to convert single phase to 3 phase is with a machine called a Rotary Converter. They are about £1000+
https://www.google.co.uk/shopping/p...257361_0,prmr:1,pid:15463986749900257361,cs:1

I suspect your premises already had 3 phase at the service head and you have just payed for a meter change. Although as Greig says you would need a 3 phase consumer unit which would be circa £1200.
Maybe your premises was a large house or a small block of flats?


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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2021)

Sorry about the length of this, thought it might be interesting to those who end up looking at some point!

So we’ve done it, we’ve pressed the button on a new EV although with the combination of demand and chip shortages it’s anyone’s guess as to when it will arrive. We have gone for a prebuilt version though rather than a factory build so that should cut down the waiting time. Officially it’s due in February 2022 however by the comments on FB there are a few who have ordered previous to us and are still waiting. That said we’re in no rush so if it comes a few months later than so be it.

The cars we ended up testing were….

Ford Mach E – really nice and probably would have been our favourite however having a 7 year old and a dog it just wasn’t really big enough where it mattered so wasn’t any good this time round.

Kia EV6 – again, nice looking car and probably one of the nicest I felt in terms of the front console however with the quite sloping roof the back felt a bit dark and domestic management wasn’t a fan despite it still being very roomy and personally I didn’t actually think it was that dark in the back.

VW ID4 – My least favourite, nothing particularly wrong with it but also nothing to get excited about. The one thing I have liked about the cars I’ve been testing is that being electric the dashboards all seem very futuristic and the VW felt too much like a ‘normal’ car. For some this might actually be preferential but just not for me. Also, no physical buttons, everything is touch sensitive or touch sliders so when you’re driving and being told to switch a mode from X to Y it was very difficult without looking down to see what you were doing!!

Skoda Enyaq – I have had a Skoda before, our previous car was an Octavia VRS and the things I didn’t really like about that car, unfortunately, were still present in this. It just felt a bit plasticky inside! Probably a pretty minor complaint but it’s something that I didn’t particularly like on the last car. It also suffered from a similar issue to the VW in that the front console was a little bland. That said it was probably my 2nd choice, cannot complain about anything in terms of space as it was absolutey huge inside and easily the biggest of those that I tested.

I didn’t end up testing the Audi eTron or the Tesla Model Y as whilst our budget could stretch it was only realistically to their entry level models.

So, the winner was the one that I hoped it would be, the Hyundai Ioniq 5. From the outside it looks like a pretty small crossover type thing, I was immediately concerned as I had hoped that when we saw it in the flesh it would bigger in real life however it really didn’t. Those fears were allayed as soon as you get in and sit inside, it’s really very large (although not Skoda large). The boot is about 10% bigger than our Audi’s and it doesn’t have a massively sloping roof which ours does which means there is more useable space. The back seats can slide forward which can increase the boot space and they also fold absolutely flat if needed, Hyundai actually sell an Ioniq 5 mattress if you fancy going camping in it!!

I’ve gone for the Ultimate Tech edition with the larger batter and AWD which gives about 302bhp so it feels quick. It’s got all the bells and whistles and whilst the range does suffer slightly it will be plenty for 95% of our journeys. The suggested range is 280 odd miles, I think in reality it’ll be closer to 240 but again, my longest (regular) journey is down to the folks on the south coast which is a 110 mile round trip so won’t have much in the way of range anxiety. The only journey that’ll take a bit of planning is our trip to Cornwall that we tend to do once a year, I’ll just have to find a nice eatery with local charging, apparently the 20-80% charging is around 45 minutes so a single stop will get us there.

So the one issue I do have is the home charging point, I was hoping to avoid having to do much in the way of prep work however that doesn’t appear to be the case. The jobs that I have to do are not expensive however they’re annoying as they require different agencies to do their bit and depending on what part you are doing you’ll find you are way down on the priority list!!

First job is that we have to upgrade the master fuse in the house as we presently have a 60A fuse, it is recommended to get 100A to ensure that you don’t shut off your electrics every time you plug your car in!! The issue with this is that we have to upgrade some bits in the meter box and this is the remit of your electricity company. When I spoke to them they were happy to do it however it’s not something that ranks highly on their ‘to do’ list so the earliest I can get booked in is towards the end of January. I then spoke to UK Power Networks who’ll do the fuse and they are quoting 6-8 weeks at present. I am trying to get a confirmed date from the electricity company and can then hopefully get UKPN booked in as their lead time is likely to fit in well with the meter work. Finally I can then get a charger put in, those lead times are 2-4 weeks! Like I said, nothing expensive but just annoying bits that take some chasing and organising.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry about the length of this, thought it might be interesting to those who end up looking at some point!

So we’ve done it, we’ve pressed the button on a new EV although with the combination of demand and chip shortages it’s anyone’s guess as to when it will arrive. We have gone for a prebuilt version though rather than a factory build so that should cut down the waiting time. Officially it’s due in February 2022 however by the comments on FB there are a few who have ordered previous to us and are still waiting. That said we’re in no rush so if it comes a few months later than so be it.

The cars we ended up testing were….

Ford Mach E – really nice and probably would have been our favourite however having a 7 year old and a dog it just wasn’t really big enough where it mattered so wasn’t any good this time round.

Kia EV6 – again, nice looking car and probably one of the nicest I felt in terms of the front console however with the quite sloping roof the back felt a bit dark and domestic management wasn’t a fan despite it still being very roomy and personally I didn’t actually think it was that dark in the back.

VW ID4 – My least favourite, nothing particularly wrong with it but also nothing to get excited about. The one thing I have liked about the cars I’ve been testing is that being electric the dashboards all seem very futuristic and the VW felt too much like a ‘normal’ car. For some this might actually be preferential but just not for me. Also, no physical buttons, everything is touch sensitive or touch sliders so when you’re driving and being told to switch a mode from X to Y it was very difficult without looking down to see what you were doing!!

Skoda Enyaq – I have had a Skoda before, our previous car was an Octavia VRS and the things I didn’t really like about that car, unfortunately, were still present in this. It just felt a bit plasticky inside! Probably a pretty minor complaint but it’s something that I didn’t particularly like on the last car. It also suffered from a similar issue to the VW in that the front console was a little bland. That said it was probably my 2nd choice, cannot complain about anything in terms of space as it was absolutey huge inside and easily the biggest of those that I tested.

I didn’t end up testing the Audi eTron or the Tesla Model Y as whilst our budget could stretch it was only realistically to their entry level models.

So, the winner was the one that I hoped it would be, the Hyundai Ioniq 5. From the outside it looks like a pretty small crossover type thing, I was immediately concerned as I had hoped that when we saw it in the flesh it would bigger in real life however it really didn’t. Those fears were allayed as soon as you get in and sit inside, it’s really very large (although not Skoda large). The boot is about 10% bigger than our Audi’s and it doesn’t have a massively sloping roof which ours does which means there is more useable space. The back seats can slide forward which can increase the boot space and they also fold absolutely flat if needed, Hyundai actually sell an Ioniq 5 mattress if you fancy going camping in it!!

I’ve gone for the Ultimate Tech edition with the larger batter and AWD which gives about 302bhp so it feels quick. It’s got all the bells and whistles and whilst the range does suffer slightly it will be plenty for 95% of our journeys. The suggested range is 280 odd miles, I think in reality it’ll be closer to 240 but again, my longest (regular) journey is down to the folks on the south coast which is a 110 mile round trip so won’t have much in the way of range anxiety. The only journey that’ll take a bit of planning is our trip to Cornwall that we tend to do once a year, I’ll just have to find a nice eatery with local charging, apparently the 20-80% charging is around 45 minutes so a single stop will get us there.

So the one issue I do have is the home charging point, I was hoping to avoid having to do much in the way of prep work however that doesn’t appear to be the case. The jobs that I have to do are not expensive however they’re annoying as they require different agencies to do their bit and depending on what part you are doing you’ll find you are way down on the priority list!!

First job is that we have to upgrade the master fuse in the house as we presently have a 60A fuse, it is recommended to get 100A to ensure that you don’t shut off your electrics every time you plug your car in!! The issue with this is that we have to upgrade some bits in the meter box and this is the remit of your electricity company. When I spoke to them they were happy to do it however it’s not something that ranks highly on their ‘to do’ list so the earliest I can get booked in is towards the end of January. I then spoke to UK Power Networks who’ll do the fuse and they are quoting 6-8 weeks at present. I am trying to get a confirmed date from the electricity company and can then hopefully get UKPN booked in as their lead time is likely to fit in well with the meter work. Finally I can then get a charger put in, those lead times are 2-4 weeks! Like I said, nothing expensive but just annoying bits that take some chasing and organising.
		
Click to expand...

I am in a similar place, have looked at a few of those. The Ioniq Ultimate looks well kitted out with modern tech. What sort of delivery slot have you been offered?

I want something with decent range, decent turn of speed and a boot that will take folded up trolley and golf clubs without taking driver out. Will be buying via a limited company, so have a bit more money to play with. 

Looked at a Polestar 2, lovely car, very classy, no boot.

Audi Q-tron, basically a Q3+, not that spacious for teenagers inside, not great boot.

Audi E-tron, big boot, very spacious, but expensive.

BMW iX3, doesn't look that special, not big boot.

BMW iX, marmite looks, big boot, expensive

Ioniq 5, surprisingly nice, good boot, good kit, good value (compared to the others) - haven't seen EV6 yet. 

Considering the BMW i4, and planning to look at an ID4 GTX. I see there is a new Skoda Enyaq 80 just out and a vRS to follow.


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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am in a similar place, have looked at a few of those. The Ioniq Ultimate looks well kitted out with modern tech. What sort of delivery slot have you been offered?
		
Click to expand...

Delivery slot is w/c 7th February however I have joined a UK Ioniq group on FB and there seem to have been a lot of people who were in November delivery slots who are now seeing end of December etc. That said it does seem to be slightly luck of the draw as some models/specs are being delivered quicker whilst others are suffering more from delays.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry about the length of this, thought it might be interesting to those who end up looking at some point!

So we’ve done it, we’ve pressed the button on a new EV although with the combination of demand and chip shortages it’s anyone’s guess as to when it will arrive. We have gone for a prebuilt version though rather than a factory build so that should cut down the waiting time. Officially it’s due in February 2022 however by the comments on FB there are a few who have ordered previous to us and are still waiting. That said we’re in no rush so if it comes a few months later than so be it.

The cars we ended up testing were….

Ford Mach E – really nice and probably would have been our favourite however having a 7 year old and a dog it just wasn’t really big enough where it mattered so wasn’t any good this time round.

Kia EV6 – again, nice looking car and probably one of the nicest I felt in terms of the front console however with the quite sloping roof the back felt a bit dark and domestic management wasn’t a fan despite it still being very roomy and personally I didn’t actually think it was that dark in the back.

VW ID4 – My least favourite, nothing particularly wrong with it but also nothing to get excited about. The one thing I have liked about the cars I’ve been testing is that being electric the dashboards all seem very futuristic and the VW felt too much like a ‘normal’ car. For some this might actually be preferential but just not for me. Also, no physical buttons, everything is touch sensitive or touch sliders so when you’re driving and being told to switch a mode from X to Y it was very difficult without looking down to see what you were doing!!

Skoda Enyaq – I have had a Skoda before, our previous car was an Octavia VRS and the things I didn’t really like about that car, unfortunately, were still present in this. It just felt a bit plasticky inside! Probably a pretty minor complaint but it’s something that I didn’t particularly like on the last car. It also suffered from a similar issue to the VW in that the front console was a little bland. That said it was probably my 2nd choice, cannot complain about anything in terms of space as it was absolutey huge inside and easily the biggest of those that I tested.

I didn’t end up testing the Audi eTron or the Tesla Model Y as whilst our budget could stretch it was only realistically to their entry level models.

So, the winner was the one that I hoped it would be, the Hyundai Ioniq 5. From the outside it looks like a pretty small crossover type thing, I was immediately concerned as I had hoped that when we saw it in the flesh it would bigger in real life however it really didn’t. Those fears were allayed as soon as you get in and sit inside, it’s really very large (although not Skoda large). The boot is about 10% bigger than our Audi’s and it doesn’t have a massively sloping roof which ours does which means there is more useable space. The back seats can slide forward which can increase the boot space and they also fold absolutely flat if needed, Hyundai actually sell an Ioniq 5 mattress if you fancy going camping in it!!

I’ve gone for the Ultimate Tech edition with the larger batter and AWD which gives about 302bhp so it feels quick. It’s got all the bells and whistles and whilst the range does suffer slightly it will be plenty for 95% of our journeys. The suggested range is 280 odd miles, I think in reality it’ll be closer to 240 but again, my longest (regular) journey is down to the folks on the south coast which is a 110 mile round trip so won’t have much in the way of range anxiety. The only journey that’ll take a bit of planning is our trip to Cornwall that we tend to do once a year, I’ll just have to find a nice eatery with local charging, apparently the 20-80% charging is around 45 minutes so a single stop will get us there.

So the one issue I do have is the home charging point, I was hoping to avoid having to do much in the way of prep work however that doesn’t appear to be the case. The jobs that I have to do are not expensive however they’re annoying as they require different agencies to do their bit and depending on what part you are doing you’ll find you are way down on the priority list!!

First job is that we have to upgrade the master fuse in the house as we presently have a 60A fuse, it is recommended to get 100A to ensure that you don’t shut off your electrics every time you plug your car in!! The issue with this is that we have to upgrade some bits in the meter box and this is the remit of your electricity company. When I spoke to them they were happy to do it however it’s not something that ranks highly on their ‘to do’ list so the earliest I can get booked in is towards the end of January. I then spoke to UK Power Networks who’ll do the fuse and they are quoting 6-8 weeks at present. I am trying to get a confirmed date from the electricity company and can then hopefully get UKPN booked in as their lead time is likely to fit in well with the meter work. Finally I can then get a charger put in, those lead times are 2-4 weeks! Like I said, nothing expensive but just annoying bits that take some chasing and organising.
		
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Thanks for the info, really interesting to read through the reviews 

I'm 9 months into ownership of the Corsa (well leasing)

Love everything about the electric side 

Car itself ain't great as it's still a Corsa but it does what I need and I make it work 

Next time I'll go bigger


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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I want something with decent range, decent turn of speed and a boot that will take folded up trolley and golf clubs without taking driver out. Will be buying via a limited company, so have a bit more money to play with.
		
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When I went for the test drive I took my golf clubs and there is a space across the front of the boot in the Ioniq that I could put my clubs in that fit without taking the driver out. The trolley and all other bits and bobs would then fit in the rest of the boot. This link might help with dimensions, have a look at post #24. 

Ioniq 5 boot dimensions | Page 2 | Hyundai IONIQ Forum 

I am also buying through my company, got a half decent lease deal and can reclaim 50% of the VAT so becomes pretty affordable.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			When I went for the test drive I took my golf clubs and there is a space across the front of the boot in the Ioniq that I could put my clubs in that fit without taking the driver out. The trolley and all other bits and bobs would then fit in the rest of the boot. This link might help with dimensions, have a look at post #24.

Ioniq 5 boot dimensions | Page 2 | Hyundai IONIQ Forum

I am also buying through my company, got a half decent lease deal and can reclaim 50% of the VAT so becomes pretty affordable.
		
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That's a real nice one that one. The lease on mine ends Jan 24 I think it was. But defo good to see more options coming out 

Should be wicked by then


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## bobmac (Nov 3, 2021)

So you all want a big boot, 500 mile range and 0-60 in 5 secs.
It's here....


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/shoppers-stuck-westfield-london-car-22063600.amp

😲😲😲 three hours !!


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/shoppers-stuck-westfield-london-car-22063600.amp

😲😲😲 three hours !!
		
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Oops......


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## Fade and Die (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/shoppers-stuck-westfield-london-car-22063600.amp

😲😲😲 three hours !!
		
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Not a good day for Tesla…..

Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

How often do you see cars run out of fuel? Hardly ever.. how on earth can you run out of charge .. why would you let it get that low?

They warn you constantly once you get to a certain range so this person ignored it


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/shoppers-stuck-westfield-london-car-22063600.amp

😲😲😲 three hours !!
		
Click to expand...


This was last week, so old news

This weeks news is about Tesla drivers being unable to unlock and start their cars because the Tesla App was down
Lets all keep up 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			This was last week, so old news

This weeks news is about Tesla drivers being unable to unlock and start their cars because the Tesla App was down
Lets all keep up 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306

Click to expand...

Phil there is already a thread on this could you please post in there 😂


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Phil there is already a thread on this could you please post in there 😂
		
Click to expand...

I know I was just highlighting old news 
Back under yer rock


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

There will always be user errors 

Some will always forget to put enough petrol in , some will not charge the batteries enough  - it happens regardless of the vehicle 

The issue for me is - if a car runs out of petrol and is blocking something , out people get and push it to the side and wait for help - hold up will be around 5 mins 

The Tesla - runs out of battery , anchor is dropped , cannot push it out of the way and it just sits there like a imovable rock - hold up will continue until someone puts some charge in or it’s lifted up and moved - that’s utterly daft and I hope it’s just limited to the Tesla


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There will always be user errors

Some will always forget to put enough petrol in , some will not charge the batteries enough  - it happens regardless of the vehicle

The issue for me is - if a car runs out of petrol and is blocking something , out people get and push it to the side and wait for help - hold up will be around 5 mins

The Tesla - runs out of battery , anchor is dropped , cannot push it out of the way and it just sits there like a imovable rock - hold up will continue until someone puts some charge in or it’s lifted up and moved - that’s utterly daft and I hope it’s just limited to the Tesla
		
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A car on four wheels that can’t be pushed out of the way in an emergency is just plain dangerous and a massive design flaw.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			A car on four wheels that can’t be pushed out of the way in an emergency is just plain dangerous and a massive design flaw.
		
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It's not so much a flaw as just a byproduct of design 

Whenever the engine isn't running the car has regen braking to use little energy and capture energy loss 

This engages automatically and means that if you try and push you can't because you don't have the force to move the car 

Some ev you can push a bit but no power steering

However what should be focused on is that fact the driver has ignored so many warnings 

You get a warning and enabling of turtle model when you get low..it says charge now and directs you to charge points 

If you ignore that and carry on not to a charge point your irresponsible


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's not so much a flaw as just a byproduct of design

Whenever the engine isn't running the car has regen braking to use little energy and capture energy loss

This engages automatically and means that if you try and push you can't because you don't have the force to move the car

Some ev you can push a bit but no power steering

However what should be focused on is that fact the driver has ignored so many warnings

You get a warning and enabling of turtle model when you get low..it says charge now and directs you to charge points

If you ignore that and carry on not to a charge point your irresponsible
		
Click to expand...

Of course it’s a flaw 

If your car breaks down because of no battery and it can’t be pushed away and potentially cause a significant amount of delay to multiple amount of other road users then it’s a flaw 

On this occasion the reason why it was a 3 hour delay is because it was an electric car - If that was a non electric then the delay would have been 5/10 mins , the time it would take to push the car out of the way 

It’s ok to say that on this type of occurrence the EV is poor choice


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course it’s a flaw

If your car breaks down because of no battery and it can’t be pushed away and potentially cause a significant amount of delay to multiple amount of other road users then it’s a flaw

On this occasion the reason why it was a 3 hour delay is because it was an electric car - If that was a non electric then the delay would have been 5/10 mins , the time it would take to push the car out of the way

It’s ok to say that on this type of occurrence the EV is poor choice
		
Click to expand...

Other electric cars which can be pushed out of the way are available


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## Leftitshort (Nov 20, 2021)

This thread still going round & round🤣🤣
I’ve got one coming. I don’t want to kill the planet but the real motivation is the 1% BIK. Thank you very much. 

I reckon it will save me approx £350 per month. I’m a convert 🤣🤣


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## drdel (Nov 20, 2021)

That's why I went for a hybrid.  Until the infrastructure catches up I will stick to a hybrid.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

The real question is why is Westfield's (both of them in London) welcome to so many cars. It has excellent rail connections and driving their is a nightmare (even with a telsa broken down) if we really want to go green people should be encouraged to get public transport their


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			This thread still going round & round🤣🤣
I’ve got one coming. I don’t want to kill the planet but the real motivation is the 1% BIK. Thank you very much.

I reckon it will save me approx £350 per month. I’m a convert 🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

If that's what it takes to get people to convert then it's a good thing 

Whatever the reason if the right choice is made then it doesn't matter


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)




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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:









Click to expand...

I’m guessing it’s easy to put the car in neutral when it has power 🙄 less so when the battery is dead.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m guessing it’s easy to put the car in neutral when it has power 🙄 less so when the battery is dead.
		
Click to expand...

The car also has a standard 12v battery just like all cars so yes, you can put it in neutral.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The car also has a standard 12v battery just like all cars so yes, you can put it in neutral.
		
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Cause maybe he couldn’t and the 12v battery was also dead unless you think he just sat their for 3 hours and tried nothing ?

It’s clearly an issue , and one that didn’t just affect one person , it’s fine to say “yep it’s not good” - instead of scrambling around looking for excuses and pointing the finger elsewhere.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

You said ...


Liverpoolphil said:



			The issue for me is - if a car runs out of petrol and is blocking something , out people get and push it to the side and wait for help - hold up will be around 5 mins

The Tesla - runs out of battery , anchor is dropped , cannot push it out of the way and it just sits there like a imovable rock - hold up will continue until someone puts some charge in or it’s lifted up and moved - that’s utterly daft and I hope it’s just limited to the Tesla
		
Click to expand...

I've shown that is wrong.
If the driver ignored all the warnings of low battery, let it get to 0 % range, then drove another 10-20 miles on reserve then they are not very clever. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know how to put it into neutral.
Or, the whole thing was a set up


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You said ...


I've shown that is wrong.
If the driver ignored all the warnings of low battery, let it get to 0 % range, then drove another 10-20 miles on reserve then they are not very clever. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know how to put it into neutral.
Or, the whole thing was a set up
		
Click to expand...

so you think the driver sat there for 3 hours not doing anything ? Didn’t bother to see if he could get it into neutral or search you tube to find if there was anyway of getting it moving ?

Or you think that they just sat there as a set up to cause 3 hours worth of hold up to a significant amount of others 🤦‍♂️

ok I guess it’s clear that there can never be any fault with the EV then


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 20, 2021)

Simply if the car runs out of juice, it is the drivers fault, plenty of warnings issued.

If the car is then immobilised as a result and cannot be moved, then this is a design fault.

Now can we stop going round in ever decreasing circles 👍


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Simply if the car runs out of juice, it is the drivers fault, plenty of warnings issued.

If the car is then immobilised as a result and cannot be moved, then this is a design fault.

Now can we stop going round in ever decreasing circles 👍
		
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That's the whole point, it's not a design fault.
*When a Tesla model S runs out, you can put the car into neutral and push it.*
If the user doesn't know that, it's not the fault of the car.


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## cliveb (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The real question is why is Westfield's (both of them in London) welcome to so many cars. It has excellent rail connections and driving their is a nightmare (even with a telsa broken down) if we really want to go green people should be encouraged to get public transport their
		
Click to expand...

Westfield is a big shopping centre, and many visitors are likely to buy a lot of stuff, which will need a car to get home. Trains don't have guards vans for bulky items any more.


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ok I guess it’s clear that there can never be any fault with the EV then
		
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Ok, in this instance, how was the EV at fault?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			That's the whole point, it's not a design fault.
*When a Tesla model S runs out, you can put the car into neutral and push it.*
If the user doesn't know that, it's not the fault of the car.
		
Click to expand...

And like an ice car has never had an issue .. just looking for an angle as always


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's not so much a flaw as just a byproduct of design

Whenever the engine isn't running the car has regen braking to use little energy and capture energy loss

This engages automatically and means that if you try and push you can't because you don't have the force to move the car

Some ev you can push a bit but no power steering

However what should be focused on is that fact the driver has ignored so many warnings

You get a warning and enabling of turtle model when you get low..it says charge now and directs you to charge points

If you ignore that and carry on not to a charge point your irresponsible
		
Click to expand...

Sorry it’s a flaw!
The crane I used to drive had electric motors with the brakes released by electricity.( dead mans handle)
But even in the 1980s it had an override system to move it if it broke down.
You can’t teach stupid people so you need a safety net.

The only thing I can think of is the Tesla might be to heavy to push up the ramp.
Did it say how they moved it eventually.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sorry it’s a flaw!
The crane I used to drive had electric motors with the brakes released by electricity.( dead mans handle)
But even in the 1980s it had an override system to move it if it broke down.
You can’t teach stupid people so you need a safety net.
		
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Apparently you can push them, I'm unsure why this telsa was unable to be but Apparently you can but can't tow them


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently you can push them, I'm unsure why this telsa was unable to be but Apparently you can but can't tow them
		
Click to expand...

Sorry edited my post.
Could the weight of this car and the fact it’s uphill on the ramp be a factor.
Or just a lack of knowledge about them.?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sorry edited my post.
Could the weight of this car and the fact it’s uphill on the ramp be a factor.
Or just a lack of knowledge about them.?
		
Click to expand...

It could be, they weight a lot


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 20, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sorry it’s a flaw!
The crane I used to drive had electric motors with the brakes released by electricity.( dead mans handle)
But even in the 1980s it had an override system to move it if it broke down.
You can’t teach stupid people so you need a safety net.

The only thing I can think of is the Tesla might be to heavy to push up the ramp.
Did it say how they moved it eventually.
		
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The report says the car had zero power at all and that put it in park mode so couldn’t be moved at all beyond lifting it

They ended up running a cable so that it could be plug in for 15 mins so that it gave it enough juice to get to one of the Tesla charging points in the car park


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## GreiginFife (Nov 20, 2021)

So on the dead betters issue, I’m now wondering how many ICE auto’s with EPBs would suffer the same. 

In ‘off’ mode my car (a 100% ICE) is placed in park by the gearbox controller and the Electronic Parking Brake is applied. Only once the car is started can the gear be moved out of Park and the EPB disengaged. If my battery died or failed I think I would have the same problem. 

Ok it’s not likely to happen on a busy road but I suppose a battery could fail at any time.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So on the dead betters issue, I’m now wondering how many ICE auto’s with EPBs would suffer the same.

In ‘off’ mode my car (a 100% ICE) is placed in park by the gearbox controller and the Electronic Parking Brake is applied. Only once the car is started can the gear be moved out of Park and the EPB disengaged. If my battery died or failed I think I would have the same problem.

Ok it’s not likely to happen on a busy road but I suppose a battery could fail at any time.
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder this, all the cars I've bought since 2012 have had electric parking brakes which put a bolt through the wheel 

If that stays on the cars going nowhere


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## GreiginFife (Nov 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I did wonder this, all the cars I've bought since 2012 have had electric parking brakes which put a bolt through the wheel

If that stays on the cars going nowhere
		
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They don’t put a bolt through the wheel, the rear callipers have an electronic servo that winds out when engaged, essentially electronically like putting your foot on the pedal. 
But the rely on power to release, well that’s not entirely true either, they mostly have a mechanical override but it’s not something I’d want to be doing on a busy dual carriageway. 

The secondary issue is the power failing whilst the car is in park. There is no mechanical override for an electronically controlled autobox.


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## cliveb (Nov 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The report says the car had zero power at all and that put it in park mode so couldn’t be moved at all beyond lifting it
		
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One of the pictures clearly shows the car's rear lights on. How can that be if it had "zero power at all"?


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## Smiffy (Nov 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Ok, in this instance, how was the EV at fault?
		
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It wasn't. But that's not a decent argument.


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			It wasn't. But that's not a decent argument.
		
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A bit of searching shows the car park has 24 Tesla superchargers


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A bit of searching shows the car park has 24 Tesla superchargers
		
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The owner should be fined tbh


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## Pants (Dec 1, 2021)

The Mercedes battery powered car


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## bobmac (Dec 1, 2021)

This is the Mercedes battery powered car...


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2021)

I was shopping for an EV, had driven a Polestar 2 and a BMW iX, and liked both, although quite different. The Polestar is a smaller car, but lovely to drive and can be quite relaxing to drive or a flying machine. The iX is a big luxury space and very cocooning. Polestar have some pre-configured cars available at shortish lead times, iX is booking now for July delivery. I also liked the look of the i4 but haven't seen one. Saw the petrol version, looks good, but as with iX, July earliest.  

Now I have decided to delay until spring 2022, when some more choice will be available.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

I was out at the EV show in Gothenburg, saw all the main contenders and got to see some newer ones coming. 
Ioniq5 .. really nice very comfortable 
EV6 .. same platform more sportier feel but well appointed
the Mercedes EQS was okay but the plastics and the dash were covered in finger marks and felt cheap. But the car did not look huge, and the battery range is impressive so long wheel base luxury sedans are ideal for EVs .
I like the Ford, it feels like a Ford and there is a comfort in that, but it moves you on. Audi is the same in that respect. I don’t like ultra modern because it ages badly. BMW was good but not sure whether people will by into the sustainable interior fabrics ( some look like they are from a fiesta of the 80s!)
Polestar look good, but they have seriously got their loads incorrect for the wheel and tyre combination… 2 up it’s perfect, but fully laden it could be unpredictable.
New Renault I think could be a very popular option… boot space is deep and long, battery 2 options with a 250mile range max. Interior crossed nicely over from conventional to modern. Competitor set is ID3 .. so prices in that range.

The motorbikes are awesome different styles .. street, tourers and trail … and no gears 👍👍👍
Retro electricification was also represented, Tesla units in classic 911 ( which .. I like) and great big American cars, which work easily .. this is a future I like 🙂


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			....

The motorbikes are awesome different styles .. street, tourers and trail … *and no gears* 👍👍👍
Retro electricification was also represented, Tesla units in classic 911 ( which .. I like) and great big American cars, which work easily .. this is a future I like 🙂
		
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And where's the fun in that?


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## Ethan (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I was out at the EV show in Gothenburg, saw all the main contenders and got to see some newer ones coming.
Ioniq5 .. really nice very comfortable
EV6 .. same platform more sportier feel but well appointed
the Mercedes EQS was okay but the plastics and the dash were covered in finger marks and felt cheap. But the car did not look huge, and the battery range is impressive so long wheel base luxury sedans are ideal for EVs .
I like the Ford, it feels like a Ford and there is a comfort in that, but it moves you on. Audi is the same in that respect. I don’t like ultra modern because it ages badly. BMW was good but not sure whether people will by into the sustainable interior fabrics ( some look like they are from a fiesta of the 80s!)
*Polestar look good, but they have seriously got their loads incorrect for the wheel and tyre combination… 2 up it’s perfect, but fully laden it could be unpredictable.*
New Renault I think could be a very popular option… boot space is deep and long, battery 2 options with a 250mile range max. Interior crossed nicely over from conventional to modern. Competitor set is ID3 .. so prices in that range.

The motorbikes are awesome different styles .. street, tourers and trail … and no gears 👍👍👍
Retro electricification was also represented, Tesla units in classic 911 ( which .. I like) and great big American cars, which work easily .. this is a future I like 🙂
		
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Tell me more about this


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Tell me more about this
		
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Tyre load capacity is set at 2.9bar and your legally supposed to utilise a minimum of 88% of this figure. You can increase pressure up to 3.4bar to get more load capacity  and they have but actual utilisation 88%+ meaning when you get into load transfer situation the tyre will be saturated … this means the car balance becomes unpredictable. The situation is okay if the vehicle has no dynamic intentions or the driver is not looking to thrash it, but that’s not what polestar had in mind. They packaged for a size tyre that did not allow them to have a weight increase as the program matured. It’s just a case of non car people making cars bit like your window cleaner giving dental advice.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			And where's the fun in that?  

Click to expand...

No phaf.. no loss of speed no “chunking” about … just twist and go … speed perfection


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			No phaf.. no loss of speed no “chunking” about … just twist and go … speed perfection
		
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It’s not a faff, it’s part of the fun. And if you know what you’re doing it’s pretty seamless, not chunky at all.


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## Slime (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It’s not a faff, it’s part of the fun. And *if you know what you’re doing it’s pretty seamless*, not chunky at all.
		
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No gears makes it absolutely seamless.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2021)

Slime said:



			No gears makes it absolutely seamless.
		
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When I want absolutely no feeling and involvement with a motorcycle it will be time to pack it in.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			When I want absolutely no feeling and involvement with a motorcycle it will be time to pack it in.
		
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Thats how everything on the road will be ...soul-less


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## DaveR (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			No phaf.. no loss of speed no “chunking” about … just twist and go … speed perfection
		
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If you don't want a riding experience buy a twist and go moped. Motorcycles are meant to be fun and engaging, an automatic sounds boring to me.


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Thats how everything on the road will be ...soul-less
		
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And free of carbon monoxide


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## larmen (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			When I want absolutely no feeling and involvement with a motorcycle it will be time to pack it in.
		
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NIU has announced the RQi, might be worth a look. With my cbt I am limited to MQi/NQi. But the new MQi looks nice, shame I just bought the original one this year.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

DaveR said:



			If you don't want a riding experience buy a twist and go moped. Motorcycles are meant to be fun and engaging, an automatic sounds boring to me.
		
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That argument could be applied to golf clubs..460cc drivers are boring they make the game slow because the encourage people to swing out their boots and don’t promote skill or punish hard enough..


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			That argument could be applied to golf clubs..460cc drivers are boring they make the game slow because the encourage people to swing out their boots and don’t promote skill or punish hard enough..
		
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I dont recall, whilst being fitted for a 460cc driver, being encouraged to swing "out of my boots" ever


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## Robster59 (Dec 11, 2021)

larmen said:



			NIU has announced the RQi, might be worth a look. With my cbt I am limited to MQi/NQi. But the new MQi looks nice, shame I just bought the original one this year.
		
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Death by acronym!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I dont recall, whilst being fitted for a 460cc driver, being encouraged to swing "out of my boots" ever
		
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So you would use the same swing speed if your club head was smaller or would you tone it down to get the strike quality?


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## Robster59 (Dec 11, 2021)

Having a PHEV I quite like the fact it is auto. But I agree that when riding a motorbike it's a much more organic thing, and slipping up and down the gears is part of the whole experience for me. (Probably OK for Harley's, Gold Wings and others of that ilk though 😉).


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

DaveR said:



			If you don't want a riding experience buy a twist and go moped. Motorcycles are meant to be fun and engaging, an automatic sounds boring to me.
		
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So not about speed ? The freedom to concentrate more on the balance the line etc … I am sure if a racing bike with no gears was released it would dominate.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So you would use the same swing speed if your club head was smaller or would you tone it down to get the strike quality?
		
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I would definitely use the same swing speed


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Having a PHEV I quite like the fact it is auto. But I agree that when riding a motorbike it's a much more organic thing, and slipping up and down the gears is part of the whole experience for me. (Probably OK for Harley's, Gold Wings and others of that ilk though 😉).
		
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I was trying to draw the analogy with a small headed driver, it allows you to play all these different shots where as a large corrective one doesn’t really. Some people want that some people don’t.. ultimately a larger headed driver offers a little more average distance but isn’t a challenge.. like a bike with no gears is quicker seamless probably more in tune with other riding attributes.. it’s just a difference of opinion


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I would definitely use the same swing speed
		
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So do you use a 460cc driver ?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So do you use a 460cc driver ?
		
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Absolutely I do


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Absolutely I do
		
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So do you play vintage clubs as well?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So do you play vintage clubs as well?
		
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No, my driver is about 6 months old my irons 3 years, except a driving iron, I bought a month ago


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I would definitely use the same swing speed
		
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So this is just an off the cuff flippant remark based on no recent experience.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So not about speed ? The freedom to concentrate more on the balance the line etc … I am sure if a racing bike with no gears was released it would dominate.
		
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No, it’s about pleasure, not purely speed. The line and balance can alter with the gear used.

Do you ride?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So this is just an off the cuff flippant remark based on no recent experience.
		
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No, it's a statement of fact - if I want more control, and am content with shorter distance ,I'd move down to my 3 wood, 3 iron or 19° rescue club. I know by and large how far and in what direction my driver is likely to go


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2021)

Followed a huge Tesla through town just now...horrible paint job.
A real Pearl finish but it just looked like it was white and had streaks of mid down it..
Anyway, I think he must have been low on battery as he didn't use a single indicator through about a couple of dozen junctions....


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## spongebob59 (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, it’s about pleasure, not purely speed. The line and balance can alter with the gear used.

Do you ride?
		
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 Nothing quite beats dropping down a cog to hit the power band and yanking the throttle open 🥰


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			No, it's a statement of fact - if I want more control, and am content with shorter distance ,I'd move down to my 3 wood, 3 iron or 19° rescue club. I know by and large how far and in what direction my driver is likely to go
		
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That is an answer to another question


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## harpo_72 (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, it’s about pleasure, not purely speed. The line and balance can alter with the gear used.

Do you ride?
		
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Used to but not seriously. Ultimately no gears is faster though always will be .. but I understand your opinion it’s just I am content to lose the gear shifting


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 11, 2021)

Electric car thread this be 
Just sayin 👍


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## Fade and Die (Dec 11, 2021)




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## PNWokingham (Dec 20, 2021)

a good review from Joe giving some key pros and cons


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## BiMGuy (Dec 20, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I was trying to draw the analogy with a small headed driver, it allows you to play all these different shots where as a large corrective one doesn’t really. Some people want that some people don’t.. ultimately a larger headed driver offers a little more average distance but isn’t a challenge.. like a bike with no gears is quicker seamless probably more in tune with other riding attributes.. it’s just a difference of opinion
		
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Getting massively O/T but. What shots can’t you play with a 460cc driver?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2021)

Well this is disappointing

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...hV7nJjV30laOlCZDR0ZUdRPUBOeaqq38NdTQL7FJQfwls


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

The way I see it is there are 3 main reasons why some people may not want to buy an electric car.
1. Cost, they are too expensive to buy.
2. Nowhere to charge.
3. Range isn't enough.

Mercedes seem to have improved no. 3


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The way I see it is there are 3 main reasons why some people may not want to buy an electric car.
1. Cost, they are too expensive to buy.
2. Nowhere to charge.
3. Range isn't enough.

Mercedes seem to have improved no. 3







Click to expand...

Just 1 and 2 to go then...........


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just 1 and 2 to go then...........
		
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Some would argue that if you have a range of 620 miles (500 in the real world), you wouldn't need to charge so often.
As for no.3, that won't change for a while.
If EVs were the same price as ICE cars, the dealerships wouldn't sell many ICE cars and as they are still making ICE cars, that won't change any time soon.
What will change it in my opinion is the import of new cars from China.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Some would argue that if you have a range of 620 miles (500 in the real world), you wouldn't need to charge so often.
As for no.3, that won't change for a while.
If EVs were the same price as ICE cars, the dealerships wouldn't sell many ICE cars and as they are still making ICE cars, that won't change any time soon.
What will change it in my opinion is the import of new cars from China.
		
Click to expand...

With the global semiconductor shortage now, more than ever, is the ideal time for manufacturers and dealers to shift the narrative to EVs. 
They could easily just shift production effort to all EV models on the premise that there just isn’t enough chips to make all models and give priority to EVs. 

I am 5 months from ordering my new car and still no sign, but they are going to build it, which means an EV isn’t being built. I am still on the wait list for the i4 but the deliveries are rocking horse poo at the minute.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			With the global semiconductor shortage now, more than ever, is the ideal time for manufacturers and dealers to shift the narrative to EVs.
They could easily just shift production effort to all EV models on the premise that there just isn’t enough chips to make all models and give priority to EVs.

I am 5 months from ordering my new car and still no sign, but they are going to build it, which means an EV isn’t being built. I am still on the wait list for the i4 but the deliveries are rocking horse poo at the minute.
		
Click to expand...

You might be quicker getting a Polestar II


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## GreiginFife (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You might be quicker getting a Polestar II 

Click to expand...

I did actually enquire, although it's an ugly beast, and (Volvo Edinburgh) were quoting upwards of 6 months wait for "basic spec" models. This shortage is really hitting everyone squarely where it hurts - right in the pounds.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



*Some would argue that if you have a range of 620 miles (500 in the real world), you wouldn't need to charge so often.*
As for no.3, that won't change for a while.
If EVs were the same price as ICE cars, the dealerships wouldn't sell many ICE cars and as they are still making ICE cars, that won't change any time soon.
What will change it in my opinion is the import of new cars from China.
		
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That is a very valid point and is quite a game changer.

Back to the price then. 2 down, one to go .

Personally, I would not buy a car from China but that is up to the individual.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Some would argue that if you have a range of 620 miles (500 in the real world), you wouldn't need to charge so often.
As for no.3, that won't change for a while.
If EVs were the same price as ICE cars, the dealerships wouldn't sell many ICE cars and as they are still making ICE cars, that won't change any time soon.
What will change it in my opinion is the import of new cars from China.
		
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and the battery will be bigger and thus take twice as long. No charger at home still no joy to electric ramp up


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and the battery will be bigger and thus take twice as long. No charger at home still no joy to electric ramp up
		
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Until the solid state batteries come on line


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## theoneandonly (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and the battery will be bigger and thus take twice as long. No charger at home still no joy to electric ramp up
		
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I'm pretty sure most don't have a petrol pump at home either and they get by. At the moment it's a problem, but when ultra fast charging becomes real it won't matter.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I'm pretty sure most don't have a petrol pump at home either and they get by. At the moment it's a problem, but when ultra fast charging becomes real it won't matter.
		
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when being the key word

Takes me 5 minutes to fill my car - cannot wait 1 or 2 hours. We know this is all coming but we have to be several years away from these issues being ok tfor the majority.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			when being the key word

Takes me 5 minutes to fill my car - cannot wait 1 or 2 hours. We know this is all coming but we have to be several years away from these issues being ok tfor the majority.
		
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You don't drive to a charger, plug in and wait 1-2 hours, you plug in and charge while you do something else. Go shopping, the gym, the office, the cinema, the golf club etc etc etc.
And if you cant do any of those or charge at home, stick with your ICE care for the next 20 years.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You don't drive to a charger, plug in and wait 1-2 hours, you plug in and charge while you do something else. Go shopping, the gym, the office, the cinema, the golf club etc etc etc.
And if you cant do any of those or charge at home, stick with your ICE care for the next 20 years.
		
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that is just not practivcal for most people most of the time, me included. In the future, we know things will be easier butfor now ICE is the only option for me and most others for a multitude of cost, convenience, value etc etc


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			that is just not practivcal for most people most of the time, me included. In the future, we know things will be easier butfor now ICE is the only option for me and most others for a multitude of cost, convenience, value etc etc
		
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Yes, we know Evs aren't for everyone yet but clever people all over the world are trying to make the transition as easy and painless as possible. The cost of purchase is coming down, the range is increasing and the charging infrastructure is growing every day.


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## DaveR (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The way I see it is there are 3 main reasons why some people may not want to buy an electric car.
1. Cost, they are too expensive to buy.
2. Nowhere to charge.
3. Range isn't enough.

Mercedes seem to have improved no. 3







Click to expand...

4. People don't want to destroy the planet through all the harm done by mining the raw materials for the batteries.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2022)

DaveR said:



			4. People don't want to destroy the planet through all the harm done by mining the raw materials for the batteries.
		
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Is it any worse than the harm done extracting oil?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Yes, we know Evs aren't for everyone yet but clever people all over the world are trying to make the transition as easy and painless as possible. The cost of purchase is coming down, the range is increasing and the charging infrastructure is growing every day.
		
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Best to give up bob, Its always the same arguments about it. Some of them quite rightly valid some of them pure twoddle based on the nissan leaf from 10 years ago.

People will change their mind in their own time (or never)


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## BrianM (Jan 4, 2022)

I’d love to get an electrical car, but we just haven’t got the charging facilities up here in the Highlands yet, hopefully in time, but I’m not holding my breath.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’d love to get an electrical car, but we just haven’t got the charging facilities up here in the Highlands yet, hopefully in time, but I’m not holding my breath.
		
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 I wouldnt either tbh. The gov have already backtracked on their install program. So its likely to get pushed back further and need more support from the private sector which will take more time no doubt


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

DaveR said:



			4. People don't want to destroy the planet through all the harm done by mining the raw materials for the batteries.
		
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You're quite right, stop digging for lithium and carry on pumping millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.
And if they do stop digging for Lithium, how are you going to power your next mobile phone/laptop/ipad/electric trolley?
Battery technology improvements will not only improve car batteries but every battery operated device we use. Imagine your next iphone lasting a week on one charge


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## Robster59 (Jan 4, 2022)

Well, not electric but mine is a PHEV.  As such, 30 miles range pure electric (longer as a hybrid but battery still close to flat after 100 miles).  I went down to see the family between Christmas and New Year.  No point in charging at the services as it takes about 4 hours to charge mine, even on a fast charger (and it doesn't do rapid charge).  We stayed at 2 hotels, neither of which had charging points so I couldn't charge them overnight there.  Due to the location of the hotels, there weren't even any nearby.  So for a journey of over 1000 miles in total, we could not charge our car.  
The infrastructure is still some way yet from being ideal.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

[QUOTE="pauljames87, post: 2442623, member: 21784"*]Best to give up bob, Its always the same arguments *about it. Some of them quite rightly valid some of them *pure twoddle* based on the nissan leaf from 10 years ago.

People will change their mind in their own time (or never)[/QUOTE]

best to give up! what a condescending statement. And what the heck is pure twoddle inrelation to? Everything stated against elecric was factual and personal for those who dare to give opinions. 

It is always the same points from you and the other evangelists promoting electric - and everyone accepts them apart from the fact that they are not for them now - due to either 1. finances - can't afford it; 2. Cannot justify it considering their lifestyle and needs; 3. Infrasture - or lack of it; 4. Impracticalities of the delays in refueling. For many, these issues are not a problem - and electric cars are good for them now - but that is clearly the minority at present. 

I could afford an electic car at the moment but live in a flat, with no charging and none likely in the foreseeable, i do 3k miles per year, have a nice £12k Octovia that i recently purchased (downgrading from a sporty BMW as i could not justify that any more given i only use it to go 3 miles to the golf club, longer trips to other clubs and hardly anything else - haven't even used it in 3 weeks). But changing to electric makes zero sense for any reason - and is also probably greener for me to keep mine for the next 10 years

I am telling how it is for me and the majority *at the moment *while fully acknowledging and accepting that all arguments in favour of electric cars for the majority now are being chipped away bit-by-bit year-by-year - yet you and certain others cannot accept that while they work for you, they do not for a lot of people *AT THE MOMENT*!


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## GreiginFife (Jan 4, 2022)

BrianM said:



			I’d love to get an electrical car, but we just haven’t got the charging facilities up here in the Highlands yet, hopefully in time, but I’m not holding my breath.
		
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We don't even have any infrastructure to speak of down here and when I move to EV it will likely be reliant on home charging. 

I was just looking at rail stations I used to use to commute. Croy station has a massive car park, some 900+ spaces all in, 6 (yes SIX) charging points. Inverkeithing, 400+ spaces all in, 1 charge point. Dunfermline Town, around 200 spaces, no charge point. That's incredible, absolutely incredible.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2022)

I think one factor is that EVs have a much higher acquisition price compared to a similar internal combustion vehicle. In the old days of average mileage of 10-12k a year, you would make some of that back in savings on fuel, tax and servicing. 

That plan falls over a bit when we are doing so few miles, though. 

I nearly placed an order for an EV in October, but the waiting time, then June-July 22 delivery, put me off.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think one factor is that EVs have a much higher acquisition price compared to a similar internal combustion vehicle. In the old days of average mileage of 10-12k a year, you would make some of that back in savings on fuel, tax and servicing.

That plan falls over a bit when we are doing so few miles, though.

I nearly placed an order for an EV in October, but the waiting time, then June-July 22 delivery, put me off.
		
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Tesla build the sales around the savings long term , they factor it into the costs when you do the online calculators 

Very tempted next time with a model 3 but the Kia's and Hyundai entries are starting to look very good .. or the Skoda version 

Plenty of options coming

Defo the more miles you drive the better for saving tho as you say 

I find them a more pleasant drive. However that's personal choice I just enjoy the get in and gokart style instant just go


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Tesla build the sales around the savings long term , they factor it into the costs when you do the online calculators

Very tempted next time with a model 3 but the Kia's and Hyundai entries are starting to look very good .. or the Skoda version

Plenty of options coming

Defo the more miles you drive the better for saving tho as you say

I find them a more pleasant drive. However that's personal choice I just enjoy the get in and gokart style instant just go
		
Click to expand...

I test drove a Polestar 2 and a BMW iX, both lovely drives, if rather different from each other. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 looks nice, not so sure about the Kia EV6. Genesis, niche brand of Hyundai looks possibly interesting.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Tesla build the sales around the savings long term , they factor it into the costs when you do the online calculators

Very tempted next time with a model 3 but the Kia's and Hyundai entries are starting to look very good .. or the Skoda version

Plenty of options coming

Defo the more miles you drive the better for saving tho as you say

I find them a more pleasant drive. However that's personal choice I just enjoy the get in and gokart style instant just go
		
Click to expand...

Kia EV6 is looking like a very attractive option for many. Unfortunately being plagued by the same production delays as many manufacturers though. 

Nio, a Chinese brand is due to launch a couple of models this year and, again some decent looking options in amongst them.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Kia EV6 is looking like a very attractive option for many. Unfortunately being plagued by the same production delays as many manufacturers though.

Nio, a Chinese brand is due to launch a couple of models this year and, again some decent looking options in amongst them.
		
Click to expand...

Its good to see options coming, I mean we had nissan and telsa for years so either meh or ££££ that was the real choice 

Now there is middle ground 

Feel a bit for nissan they put the leg work into the market but for example ccs2 is the future charger .. more of them being installed but nissan who help built the network used chademo so less of them about  now .. 

Also their cars are less of an option they went for 40kw batteries but others starting at 50 now which is a better base .. the 62kw leaf becomes costly which pushes into model 3 money almost


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am telling how it is for me and the majority *at the moment *while fully acknowledging and accepting that all arguments in favour of electric cars for the majority now are being chipped away bit-by-bit year-by-year - yet you and certain others cannot accept that while they work for you, they do not for a lot of people *AT THE MOMENT*!

Click to expand...

Maybe you missed my post...



bobmac said:



Yes, we know Evs aren't for everyone yet but clever people all over the world are trying to make the transition as easy and painless as possible. The cost of purchase is coming down, the range is increasing and the charging infrastructure is growing every day.
		
Click to expand...


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Yes, we know Evs aren't for everyone yet *but clever people all over the world are trying to make the transition* as easy and painless as possible. The cost of purchase is coming down, the range is increasing and the charging infrastructure is growing every day.
		
Click to expand...

not sure how to comment on that Bob - i guess those of that are "*not trrying to make the transition*" then, or the large majority of car users, are just the thickies


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			not sure how to comment on that Bob - i guess those of that are "*not trrying to make the transition*" then, or the large majority of car users, are just the thickies
		
Click to expand...

Way to make a quote wrong. He said 

clever people are trying to make it AS easy and painless as  possible. 

One sentence.

Not clever people are trying to make the transition.

Two completely different statements.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			not sure how to comment on that Bob - i guess those of that are "*not trrying to make the transition*" then, or the large majority of car users, are just the thickies
		
Click to expand...

I think what he means is the tickies that oppose the switch just because they don't like change and there's no changing their mind no matter what


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Way to make a quote wrong. He said

clever people are trying to make it AS easy and painless as  possible.

One sentence.

Not clever people are trying to make the transition.

Two completely different statements.
		
Click to expand...

Fair point. Apologies Bob for misreading but still does not change anything I have said before. To repeat again, we all accept it is coming, we know it will get incrementally easier to make the switch year on year but it will take years for it to make sense to a lot of people


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 4, 2022)

I still reckon Hydrogen isn’t dead yet
Considering the ethical issues with mining lithium, 
They just need to get away from the Hindenburg image


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2022)

Hydrogen Fuel Cells is what spikes my interest, I'm sure it's the way forward long term.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

Just to be crystal clear...
I meant clever people are improving battery technology/range, bringing down the costs and improving the charging infrastructure to make it easier for more people to move from ICE cars to EVs, If they want to.
We all know EVs are expensive, the range isn't big enough for some and some can't charge at home.
Every scientist who is working on EVs knows that, we all know it, I even repeated it for the umpteenth time in post no. 1599 and still we are reminded.
I get it, not everyone wants an EV now. Fine, buy a brand new ICE car in 2029 and drive it for 20 years, I don't care.
The post I made reference the Mercedes with a 500 mile range shows to those who may be interested that things are changing faster than some think, bearing in mind 11 years ago, the Nissan Leaf range was about 60-80 miles.

But if you having something new and or interesting to say about why you would or would not buy an EV, lets hear it.
If not, spare us the boredom of repeating ourselves because that's boring to the EV haters too.
Thank you


----------



## IainP (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still reckon Hydrogen isn’t dead yet
Considering the ethical issues with mining lithium,
They just need to get away from the Hindenburg image
		
Click to expand...

Seems in the conversation for planes

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ogen-plane-paves-way-for-zero-emission-flight

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59849898


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## theoneandonly (Jan 4, 2022)

It's the cost and energy requirements to produce hydrogen that are the main issue. It's the most abundant element in the universe but takes a lot of energy to produce. There are some plants coming online that they reckon will produce it using renewable energy but how much it makes  is a different matter.


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still reckon Hydrogen isn’t dead yet
Considering the ethical issues with mining lithium,
They just need to get away from the Hindenburg image
		
Click to expand...

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/107869/new-2022-bmw-ix5-hydrogen-revealed-ahead-munich-motor-show


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still reckon Hydrogen isn’t dead yet
Considering the ethical issues with mining lithium,
They just need to get away from the Hindenburg image
		
Click to expand...

If the solid state batteries come on line soon then I think hydrogen for cars will die out, it's just too far behind The EV market.
But for larger vehicles maybe


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			It's the cost and energy requirements to produce hydrogen that are the main issue. It's the most abundant element in the universe but takes a lot of energy to produce. There are some plants coming online that they reckon will produce it using renewable energy but how much it makes  is a different matter.
		
Click to expand...

In main current process though, it also has the beneficial effect of removing methane, though (a relatively small amount of) CO2 is also produced.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

Evs remind me a bit of smart phones (just without the must switch bit)

We got to a stage with the brilliant Nokia 3310 that latest like a week..

Then the smart phones came. The batteries were rubbish

Tech has moved on now less people use the older phones ..batteries are better but still don't last forever but the charge times are now amazing on some. 30 mins up to 80% etc

We have adapted a lot, charge at other places .. like pc at work might plug in.. top up often as possible if we can 

Charge at home more often than before but we happier with what they provide now 

At first we didn't like it tho


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Evs remind me a bit of smart phones (just without the must switch bit)

We got to a stage with the brilliant Nokia 3310 that latest like a week..

Then the smart phones came. The batteries were rubbish

Tech has moved on now less people use the older phones ..batteries are better but still don't last forever but the charge times are now amazing on some. 30 mins up to 80% etc

We have adapted a lot, charge at other places .. like pc at work might plug in.. top up often as possible if we can

Charge at home more often than before but we happier with what they provide now

At first we didn't like it tho
		
Click to expand...

EV's need infrastructure, and we all know how slow we are with that sort of thing in this country. You cant persuade a population to change to a new drive unit in their car when they don't see the infrastructure already in place to support it.
 Video 2000 and Betamax are still in the memory of many, but who wants to throw £10's of k down the pan on the wrong option.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 4, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is a very valid point and is quite a game changer.

Back to the price then. 2 down, one to go .

Personally, *I would not buy a car from China *but that is up to the individual.
		
Click to expand...

I'd prefer not to buy from China period but it's pretty hard not to these days.


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I still reckon Hydrogen isn’t dead yet
Considering the ethical issues with mining lithium,
They just need to get away from the Hindenburg image
		
Click to expand...

I commented on this earlier in the thread.
Hydrogen is not dead for commercial vehicles, but for standard cars, even our company is saying they believe electric is the way forward for conventional cars. 
It will take more than one fuel type to replace fossil fuels, dependant upon the mode of transport.  For example, there's is talk of ammonia being used for shipping.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'd prefer not to buy from China period but it's pretty hard not to these days.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. As someone who has a decent sized toe in the electronics industry I am very aware of their dominance. I'm also very aware of their build quality, quality standards full stop, their reaction to problems etc and that is why I won't be in one. A car is too big an investment, is too important to need to be safe for that to happen.


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Video 2000 and Betamax are still in the memory of many, but who wants to throw £10's of k down the pan on the wrong option.
		
Click to expand...

What is the right option?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What is the right option?
		
Click to expand...

I'd say betamax is hydrogen. Better actual tech, but electric has taken off further due to easier for the manufacturers to produce ..


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## DaveR (Jan 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What is the right option?
		
Click to expand...

Personally I'd sit tight and wait to see if floppy diskettes catch on


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

I ordered the Ioniq 5 at the beginning of November with a delivery date around the end of January. Just before Christmas this was pushed back to the 3rd March and I've just been updated that there is now not a delivery date however it's likely to be June at the earliest. At this rate I'll get it just before the Ioniq 6 is released!!

Planning on having a chat with my lease guy to see if there are any cancelled orders about that I can look at.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I ordered the Ioniq 5 at the beginning of November with a delivery date around the end of January. Just before Christmas this was pushed back to the 3rd March and I've just been updated that there is now not a delivery date however it's likely to be June at the earliest. At this rate I'll get it just before the Ioniq 6 is released!!

Planning on having a chat with my lease guy to see if there are any cancelled orders about that I can look at.
		
Click to expand...

That's a long old wait 

Wonder how long before they catch up on orders and they become weeks not months again


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's a long old wait
		
Click to expand...

It is and, unfortunately, it doesn't appear that it's much better with any of the other makes/models that I was looking for, in fact placing a new order today would probably push be back towards the end of summer unless there is a sudden improvement in the availability of the chips. Hyundai have tried to keep there production going by lowing the specs/reducing some of the features in their Ioniq 5 to ensure that some cars are still going out. I think my best bet might be to jump on a cancellation however that will depend on what is available in the spec/colours that I was originally looking for.


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## Smiffy (Jan 6, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You cant persuade a population to change to a new drive unit in their car when they don't see the infrastructure already in place to support it.
		
Click to expand...

"These new fangled 'orseless carriages will never catch on", said the old farmer looking across the fields.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			"These new fangled 'orseless carriages will never catch on", said the old farmer looking across the fields.
		
Click to expand...

And we still have horses


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## larmen (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And we still have horses  

Click to expand...

Not many of those in the Tesco car park where I shop.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			Not many of those in the Tesco car park where I shop.
		
Click to expand...

They are probably hiding behind the FREE EV charging points  
Every little helps


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



I commented on this earlier in the thread.
Hydrogen is not dead for commercial vehicles, but for standard cars, even our company is saying they believe electric is the way forward for conventional cars.
It will take more than one fuel type to replace fossil fuels, dependant upon the mode of transport.  For example, there's is talk of ammonia being used for shipping.
		
Click to expand...

They already have hydrogen powered buses running in Aberdeen. The current project I'm involved with is looking at generating hydrogen from offshore wind turbines. 

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/0...-demo-project-at-aberdeen-offshore-wind-farm/


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

I can't get passed the cost.
You use electricity to separate the hydrogen, then you need 
pressurised storage
pressurised tankers/lorries 
pressurised storage tanks at garages
new pressurised pumps
cars with pressurised ''fuel tanks''
Then the hydrogen in the car is used to create electricity to power the motor.
So basically you're using electricity to make hydrogen that makes electricity 
Why the massive expensive middle man?

And who is going to pay for it if all the countries are spending their millions on electric cars/charging/battery technology?

If people don't want to change from ICE cars to EVs (and there are a few) which are far cheaper to run, they are not likely to want to change to hydrogen cars which are more expensive to buy and run.

The costs of driving 100km is approximately 
Hydrogen....£11.40
Petrol..........£7.48
Diesel ........£6.76
EV..............£2.79


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## Robster59 (Jan 6, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			They already have hydrogen powered buses running in Aberdeen. The current project I'm involved with is looking at generating hydrogen from offshore wind turbines.

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/0...-demo-project-at-aberdeen-offshore-wind-farm/

Click to expand...

It's something our company are very much into and have been promoting it for years.  I remember seeing a demo Kia at one of our Sales Conferences.  It would seem from the last few announcements however that we will be concentrating on commercial vehicles rather than private cars.
Go-Ahead inks major green hydrogen supply deal with Air Products
https://www.airproducts.com/campaigns/energy-transition#/


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## Robster59 (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can't get passed the cost.
You use electricity to separate the hydrogen, then you need
pressurised storage
pressurised tankers/lorries
pressurised storage tanks at garages
new pressurised pumps
cars with pressurised ''fuel tanks''
Then the hydrogen in the car is used to create electricity to power the motor.
So basically you're using electricity to make hydrogen that makes electricity
Why the massive expensive middle man?

And who is going to pay for it if all the countries are spending their millions on electric cars/charging/battery technology?

If people don't want to change from ICE cars to EVs (and there are a few) which are far cheaper to run, they are not likely to want to change to hydrogen cars which are more expensive to buy and run.

The costs of driving 100km is approximately
Hydrogen....£11.40
Petrol..........£7.48
Diesel ........£6.76
EV..............£2.79
		
Click to expand...

As I say, I don't think Hydrogen is necessarily the way for private cars.  The points you make above on infrastructure and transport are all valid.  
However, for larger commercial vehicles it is an option.  Our company is converting its global fleet to hydrogen (see my post #1,342).
And for the cost of generation, our company is working hard on its sustainability and sourcing energy from renewables.  
To be fair, production of any kind of energy source is going to require energy to do it.


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## theoneandonly (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can't get passed the cost.
You use electricity to separate the hydrogen, then you need
pressurised storage
pressurised tankers/lorries
pressurised storage tanks at garages
new pressurised pumps
cars with pressurised ''fuel tanks''
Then the hydrogen in the car is used to create electricity to power the motor.
So basically you're using electricity to make hydrogen that makes electricity
Why the massive expensive middle man?

And who is going to pay for it if all the countries are spending their millions on electric cars/charging/battery technology?

If people don't want to change from ICE cars to EVs (and there are a few) which are far cheaper to run, they are not likely to want to change to hydrogen cars which are more expensive to buy and run.

The costs of driving 100km is approximately
Hydrogen....£11.40
Petrol..........£7.48
Diesel ........£6.76
EV..............£2.79
		
Click to expand...

I think it'd because there is so much of it and it's really easy to get, at least in small scale, makes it so tempting . You can do it at home with a battery and a few other bits and bobs. Like you say though it uses a lot of power to get and that currently makes it fairly unviable on a massive scale. It will be interesting to see how the renewable powered plants do. There could well be a place for it in some areas, aero and long haul trucking maybe.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			There could well be a place for it in some areas, aero and long haul trucking maybe.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, larger vehicles....cruise ships, ferries, oil tankers


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## GreiginFife (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree, larger vehicles....cruise ships, ferries, oil tankers


Click to expand...

There'll still be oil tankers Bob.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There'll still be oil tankers Bob.
		
Click to expand...

I know, hence the


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## cliveb (Jan 6, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There'll still be oil tankers Bob.
		
Click to expand...

When we eventually rid ourselves of using petroleum, strikes me that oil tankers could be repurposed by covering their decks with solar panels, installing electrolysers and hydrogen storage facilities, and sailing them to wherever the sun is shining.

Hydrogen isn't really a sensible fuel for domestic use, but it's certainly a convenient energy storage medium.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I know, hence the 

Click to expand...

Ah got you


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## PNWokingham (Jan 17, 2022)

This has some good facts and talks around the issues of lithium and batteries for cars - while also looking at social, logistical and environmental issues.


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## greenone (Jan 18, 2022)

larmen said:



			Not many of those in the Tesco car park where I shop.
		
Click to expand...

Thats because they been knicked to put them in their lasagnas.


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2022)

It's amazing what you can find when you can't sleep.

If I had a Tesla model 3, I'd be very tempted....


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## pauljames87 (Jan 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			It's amazing what you can find when you can't sleep.

If I had a Tesla model 3, I'd be very tempted.... 







Click to expand...

https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg5-ev

This is what's caught my eye ATM

Much more reasonable price (27k, think a focus estate is 23 brand new? So least that's a cheaper gap)

7 year warranty, 250 miles to a charge (57 kw usable battery)

Got 3 more years until my next change.. will be fascinated to see the advances from now until then


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## PIng (Jan 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg5-ev

This is what's caught my eye ATM

Much more reasonable price (27k, think a focus estate is 23 brand new? So least that's a cheaper gap)

7 year warranty, 250 miles to a charge (57 kw usable battery)

Got 3 more years until my next change.. will be fascinated to see the advances from now until then
		
Click to expand...

Seriously considering a  MG5 as my next car, just trying to decide whether to buy outright, lease or PCP.
I'm currently leasing a Ioniq Electric via works scheme. Fantastic car, but I need something with a bit more bootspace.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 25, 2022)

PIng said:



			Seriously considering a  MG5 as my next car, just trying to decide whether to buy outright, lease or PCP.
I'm currently leasing a Ioniq Electric via works scheme. Fantastic car, but I need something with a bit more bootspace.
		
Click to expand...

Lease id say. Can pick one up for £320 a month 12,000 miles 

But also gives you the option to hand back in 3-4 years if it doesn't hold up well or just the tech advances that u want to switch to something that has longer range


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## bobmac (Jan 26, 2022)

PIng said:



			Seriously considering a  MG5 as my next car, just trying to decide whether to buy outright, lease or PCP.
I'm currently leasing a Ioniq Electric via works scheme. Fantastic car, but I need something with a bit more bootspace.
		
Click to expand...

Would you consider going back to a petrol/diesel car next?


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## PIng (Jan 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Would you consider going back to a petrol/diesel car next?
		
Click to expand...

Not a chance! Love the electric car.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 26, 2022)

PIng said:



			Seriously considering a  MG5 as my next car, just trying to decide whether to buy outright, lease or PCP.
I'm currently leasing a Ioniq Electric via works scheme. Fantastic car, but I need something with a bit more bootspace.
		
Click to expand...

Thing I detest with most MG's, is they dont have green glass just your 1970's untinted low rent stuff. 
It puts me straight off


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## greenone (Jan 26, 2022)

cliveb said:



			When we eventually rid ourselves of using petroleum, strikes me that oil tankers could be repurposed by covering their decks with solar panels, installing electrolysers and hydrogen storage facilities, and sailing them to wherever the sun is shining.

Hydrogen isn't really a sensible fuel for domestic use, but it's certainly a convenient energy storage medium.
		
Click to expand...

When we stop using petroleum we still need a hell of a lot of oil.


----------



## bobmac (Jan 27, 2022)

greenone said:



			When we stop using petroleum we still need a hell of a lot of oil.
		
Click to expand...

And we will still need cobalt as it's used in the refinement of crude oil, which is used to make petrol and diesel


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 27, 2022)

And here's another one, after our Finnish friend and his burnt out car, now this.

We're going to start seeing all the early batteries go soon, and then the market for electric cars will self combust 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/mercedes-owner-horrified-after-15000-26058531


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## BiMGuy (Jan 27, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			And here's another one, after our Finnish friend and his burnt out car, now this.

We're going to start seeing all the early batteries go soon, and then the market for electric cars will self combust

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/mercedes-owner-horrified-after-15000-26058531

Click to expand...

Have you ever seen the cost of a brand new ICE?


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			And here's another one, after our Finnish friend and his burnt out car, now this.

We're going to start seeing all the early batteries go soon, and then the market for electric cars will self combust

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/mercedes-owner-horrified-after-15000-26058531

Click to expand...

Was it a full EV or a hybrid?


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Was it a full EV or a hybrid?
		
Click to expand...

That one's a hybrid, Full EV the same.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Have you ever seen the cost of a brand new ICE?
		
Click to expand...

This isn't brand new, this is a replacement battery. Just the battery.

Are you telling me 8 year old petrol or diesel cars need a new engine? I don't think so, but even if they did they are not that price. In most cases the engine outlasts the useful life of a car, especially diesel.


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That one's a hybrid, Full EV the same.
		
Click to expand...

No.
Mercedes didn't make a full EV until mid 2015 which means the battery would still be covered by the 8 year warranty.
Besides, batteries don't just stop working, their range will reduce gradually. The owner must have seen this.
If this is a hybrid, the diesel engine will still be working fine but with a reduced electric range. Why scrap it?


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## BiMGuy (Jan 27, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			This isn't brand new, this is a replacement battery. Just the battery.

Are you telling me 8 year old petrol or diesel cars need a new engine? I don't think so, but even if they did they are not that price. In most cases the engine outlasts the useful life of a car, especially diesel.
		
Click to expand...

If the engine is damaged enough, yes an 8 year old car will need a new engine. 

It depends entirely on the car as to how much the engine will cost. I’d expect something like a Honda Jazz to be getting towards £10k. A high performance engine from a BMW M or an AMG will be in the region of £30k.


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## greenone (Jan 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If the engine is damaged enough, yes an 8 year old car will need a new engine.

It depends entirely on the car as to how much the engine will cost. I’d expect something like a Honda Jazz to be getting towards £10k. A high performance engine from a BMW M or an AMG will be in the region of £30k.
		
Click to expand...

An old workmate had his 3.5l BMW 5 series runaway. It was 6 grand for a new engine fitted.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 27, 2022)

Are re-manufactured batteries available for these cars? Or used replacements? Surely that's cheaper in a used car than a completely new unit.

A remanufactured BMW B58 engine (M Performance version, 384BHP - so pretty high performance) can be picked up for £4k remanufactured with warranty (I think they are £10k new).


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Are re-manufactured batteries available for these cars? Or used replacements? Surely that's cheaper in a used car than a completely new unit.

A remanufactured BMW B58 engine (M Performance version, 384BHP - so pretty high performance) can be picked up for £4k remanufactured with warranty (I think they are £10k new).
		
Click to expand...

You can get batteries retrofitted by external companies for some cars 

There is a company in Surrey who buy batteries from written off nissan leafs (the 40kw ones) and put the batteries in the old mk1 leafs that had like 16-24kw batteries 

At request of owners who like their cars and want to keep them (reasons like saving waste)

Think a 40kw job was 9k can't remember there is a video somewhere .. but extends the life of the car (makes it better than it was before)


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## GreiginFife (Jan 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			You can get batteries retrofitted by external companies for some cars

There is a company in Surrey who buy batteries from written off nissan leafs (the 40kw ones) and put the batteries in the old mk1 leafs that had like 16-24kw batteries

At request of owners who like their cars and want to keep them (reasons like saving waste)

Think a 40kw job was 9k can't remember there is a video somewhere .. but extends the life of the car (makes it better than it was before)
		
Click to expand...

Does the remanufacturing capability exist though. I think one of the challenges in EVs is that everything is sealed unit/solid block and this is where ICE has it's merits. 

If they have figured out how to remanufacture, rather than just reuse, then that extends the life of the battery itself. Rebuilding an old engine with new parts is fairly easy and relatively cost effective way of extending an ICE unit's life. If they could do the same with batteries and electric motors (which have a surprising number of moving parts) then that would be a huge positive.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Does the remanufacturing capability exist though. I think one of the challenges in EVs is that everything is sealed unit/solid block and this is where ICE has it's merits.

If they have figured out how to remanufacture, rather than just reuse, then that extends the life of the battery itself. Rebuilding an old engine with new parts is fairly easy and relatively cost effective way of extending an ICE unit's life. If they could do the same with batteries and electric motors (which have a surprising number of moving parts) then that would be a huge positive.
		
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https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/lithium-to-lithium-manganese-to-manganese-4662

dont think their there yet. Atm its more a focus on re-purposing and recycling the old batteries


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## GreiginFife (Jan 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/lithium-to-lithium-manganese-to-manganese-4662

dont think their there yet. Atm its more a focus on re-purposing and recycling the old batteries
		
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And I think that it's a good step, but only a first step as the battery will still be as degraded as it ever was. If they can get remanufacturing right then that would be a huge boon.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			And I think that it's a good step, but only a first step as the battery will still be as degraded as it ever was. If they can get remanufacturing right then that would be a huge boon.
		
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I think their gambling on the new battery tech thats a few years away with the solid state etc 

I wonder how many car batteries will end up on side of houses one day

I mean im officially in a queue for the Telsa Powerwall 2 , wonder if thats a new battery or an older one from their cars


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



*No.*
Mercedes didn't make a full EV until mid 2015 which means the battery would still be covered by the 8 year warranty.
Besides, batteries don't just stop working, their range will reduce gradually. The owner must have seen this.
If this is a hybrid, the diesel engine will still be working fine but with a reduced electric range. Why scrap it?
		
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YES.

That. One's. A. Hybrid,


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 27, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If the engine is damaged enough, yes an 8 year old car will need a new engine.

It depends entirely on the car as to how much the engine will cost. I’d expect something like a Honda Jazz to be getting towards £10k. A high performance engine from a BMW M or an AMG will be in the region of £30k.
		
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Rubbish, as greenone has said


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## rulefan (Jan 27, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			Would you go electric?
		
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I wouldn't yet but a lot of people are spending 'silly' money now on Teslas


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## BiMGuy (Jan 27, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Rubbish, as greenone has said
		
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My guess on the Jazz may be well out. But a BMW M5/6 engine will cost you the best part of £30k to replace. I’ve seen the invoice for one.

greenone doesn’t say when or which model engine was replaced. Or whether that was the full price or discounted.


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## cliveb (Jan 27, 2022)

greenone said:



			When we stop using petroleum we still need a hell of a lot of oil.
		
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Well yes, oil will still have its uses, for things like lubrication and plastics. (I seem to recall someone back in the 70s saying "oil is too valuable to burn").

But once petrol and diesel are no longer used, the amount of oil that needs to be transported will be significantly reduced. We ought to find something worthwhile to do with all those redundant tankers.


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2022)

So my car that was ordered at the beginning of November for a January/February delivery was initially put back to March/April and the latest date is 'some point in June....possibly'. I'm in the fortunate position that my present car is owned so I'm in no particular rush although now I've put the order through I'm pretty impatient.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 27, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So my car that was ordered at the beginning of November for a January/February delivery was initially put back to March/April and the latest date is 'some point in June....possibly'. I'm in the fortunate position that my present car is owned so I'm in no particular rush although now I've put the order through I'm pretty impatient.
		
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Similarly, I am still waiting on the car I ordered in August. I'm not impatient as such as I get that there is a global problem. It's just that the excitement of getting the new car has worn off slightly and I am now in two minds about just cancelling it and sticking a Pure 800 turbo in my B58 powered M340i... That'll be exciting


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

cliveb said:



			...
But once petrol and diesel are no longer used, the amount of oil that needs to be transported will be significantly reduced. We ought to find something worthwhile to do with all those redundant tankers.
		
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Have no fear! Capitalism will find an optimum use for them, even if it's simply dismantling and recycling.


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## cliveb (Jan 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Have no fear! Capitalism will find an optimum use for them, even if it's simply dismantling and recycling.
		
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I do fear. Capitalism will find the most profitable thing to do with them, which is unlikely to be the most environmentally responsible option.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2022)

cliveb said:



			I do fear. Capitalism will find the most profitable thing to do with them, which is unlikely to be the most environmentally responsible option.
		
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Well green projects are already being scaled back because they "cost" too much whilst rebuilding the economy rather than build a new greener economy and come out of covid with that as the mantra 

Alas we always revert to what we know .. flog it until it goes boom


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## yandabrown (Jan 27, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Well yes, oil will still have its uses, for things like lubrication and plastics. (I seem to recall someone back in the 70s saying "oil is too valuable to burn").

But once petrol and diesel are no longer used, the amount of oil that needs to be transported will be significantly reduced. We ought to find something worthwhile to do with all those redundant tankers.
		
Click to expand...

Now I could be way out here but I vaguely recall from my long distance school days that the oil is "Cracked" into many components, petrol and diesel just being two of them. Assuming that we still need the other parts of the "cracked" oil, what will happen to the excess petrol/diesel? Both will still be needed for a long time to come and perhaps we have too much of the other products so a complete non-issue?


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## IanM (Jan 27, 2022)

If lecky cars are like mobile phones, we're only just at the point they'd fit in your pocket.  No cameras or apps yet either!

I'll wait till the equivalent evolution of an iPhone 6 arrives.


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## greenone (Jan 27, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Now I could be way out here but I vaguely recall from my long distance school days that the oil is "Cracked" into many components, petrol and diesel just being two of them. Assuming that we still need the other parts of the "cracked" oil, what will happen to the excess petrol/diesel? Both will still be needed for a long time to come and perhaps we have too much of the other products so a complete non-issue?
		
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change the set up of the cracking tower and you alter the proportion of what you get out of the process.


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## Pants (Jan 27, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Now I could be way out here but I vaguely recall from my long distance school days that the oil is "Cracked" into many components, petrol and diesel just being two of them. Assuming that we still need the other parts of the "cracked" oil, what will happen to the excess petrol/diesel? Both will still be needed for a long time to come and perhaps we have too much of the other products so a complete non-issue?
		
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Post Nos 66 and 68


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## yandabrown (Jan 27, 2022)

Pants said:



			Post Nos 66 and 68 

Click to expand...

Not too sure how they are relevant?


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2022)

IanM said:



			If lecky cars are like mobile phones, we're only just at the point they'd fit in your pocket.  No cameras or apps yet either!

I'll wait till the equivalent evolution of an iPhone 6 arrives.
		
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Interesting view. Is technologies developing at the same speed now, or are we faster than before?

When did the Leaf and the i3/i8 came out? If they are the 3310 then a lot of stuff happened since. Tesla must be somewhere on the smartphone line already, 3G or maybe 4?


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2022)

Just watching the new video of the Fully Charged Show. 30 best EVs. A nice roll up of what is actually available


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			That one's a hybrid, *Full EV the same*.
		
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Banchory Buddha said:



			YES.

That. One's. A. Hybrid,
		
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Yes I know, I can read.
You said the full EV was the same.
It's not.
I was just saying the full EV battery has an 8 year warranty and hybrid battery only a 6 year warranty, so not the same


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

rulefan said:



			I wouldn't yet but a lot of people are spending 'silly' money now on Teslas
		
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A brand new Tesla model 3 is £42,990
A brand new BMW 420i M Sport Coupe is £43,591
I guess you can spend silly money on any car


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## DaveR (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			A brand new Tesla model 3 is £42,990
A brand new BMW 420i M Sport Coupe is £43,591
I guess you can spend silly money on any car
		
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More relevant would be entry level costs of both ICE and EV cars. Sub 10k for ICE, somewhere around 20k for EV I'm guessing? These are the cars more relevant to most people.


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2022)

larmen said:



			Interesting view. Is technologies developing at the same speed now, or are we faster than before?

When did the Leaf and the i3/i8 came out? If they are the 3310 then a lot of stuff happened since. Tesla must be somewhere on the smartphone line already, 3G or maybe 4?
		
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Faster,  hopefully.   I wonder what will supercede electric?


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			More relevant would be entry level costs of both ICE and EV cars. Sub 10k for ICE, somewhere around 20k for EV I'm guessing? *These are the cars more relevant to most people*.
		
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I know, but I was responding to Rulefan.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			More relevant would be entry level costs of both ICE and EV cars. Sub 10k for ICE, somewhere around 20k for EV I'm guessing? These are the cars more relevant to most people.
		
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When you say entry level costs. I presume you are talking about second hand cars with those prices? 

The model 3 as a company car is a much cheaper option than a lot of other cars that have a lower otr price from a dealer.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

You walk into a car showroom and Smiffy shows you 2 very similar cars. 
One will do do 40mpg (petrol) and the other will do 120mpg (equivalent) (EV)
It's a no brainer the EV wins....until Smiffy points out the EV costs 10k more.
Now you buy the petrol which is just as well as there are 100's still in stock.
If the EV was the same price as the petrol version, how many petrol versions would Smiffy sell?

And that is part of the reason why, in my opinion, EVs are still more expensive than their ICE equivalents.
As long as manufacturers keep making ICE cars, EVs won't come down much.

Having said that, the companies who ONLY make EVs won't have a backlog of ICE cars to get rid of so will force the prices down. I'm looking towards the east and it will happen sooner than many think.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You walk into a car showroom and Smiffy shows you 2 very similar cars.
One will do do 40mpg (petrol) and the other will do 120mpg (equivalent) (EV)
It's a no brainer the EV wins....until Smiffy points out the EV costs 10k more.
Now you buy the petrol which is just as well as there are 100's still in stock.
If the EV was the same price as the petrol version, how many petrol versions would Smiffy sell?

And that is part of the reason why, in my opinion, EVs are still more expensive than their ICE equivalents.
As long as manufacturers keep making ICE cars, EVs won't come down much.

Having said that, the companies who ONLY make EVs won't have a backlog of ICE cars to get rid of so will force the prices down. I'm looking towards the east and it will happen sooner than many think.
		
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Not necessarily.

Assuming the cars are the same spec and have the same options.

Smiffy will tell you how much the monthlies are dependent on the deposit you put down, which is dependent on the financing option you choose.

Then. Anyone sensible will do the maths for how much fuel versus how much electricity they will typically use, tax, insurance etc and figure out the total cost of ownership.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not necessarily.

Assuming the cars are the same spec and have the same options.

Smiffy will tell you how much the monthlies are dependent on the deposit you put down, which is dependent on the financing option you choose.

Then. Anyone sensible will do the maths for how much fuel versus how much electricity they will typically use, tax, insurance etc and figure out the total cost of ownership.
		
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How many people have said they won't buy an EV because they are too expensive? 
And how many dealers (not Smiffy obviously) would steer the buyers away from the EV to get rid of their ICE cars?

_''Assuming the cars are the same spec and have the same options''._

I did write _''2 very similar cars''_


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not necessarily.

Assuming the cars are the same spec and have the same options.

Smiffy will tell you how much the monthlies are dependent on the deposit you put down, which is dependent on the financing option you choose.

*Then. Anyone sensible will do the maths for how much fuel versus how much electricity they will typically use, tax, insurance etc and figure out the total cost of ownership*.
		
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There are very few sensible people around sadly who do work things out that way. I sell to mfr companies and sooooo many will only look at headline price, not the big picture. I can show them the figures, explain it all but it still comes back tothe headline figure. Never undersitimate the stupidity of people.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How many people have said they won't buy an EV because they are too expensive?
And how many dealers (not Smiffy obviously) would steer the buyers away from the EV to get rid of their ICE cars?
		
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That’s why I said anyone sensible!

I also wouldn’t trust a car salesman to tell me the truth. I do my own research and sums.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			When you say entry level costs. I presume you are talking about second hand cars with those prices?

The model 3 as a company car is a much cheaper option than a lot of other cars that have a lower otr price from a dealer.
		
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I find it hard to compare "entry" level prices for EV vs ICE

for example my car "entry" level you can get a corsa SE edition for £17,300.. thats a manual 1.2 petrol 
the corsa electric starts at  £25,800 .. so thats £8500 , but doesnt paint the full picture

to get a simular speed car you need the turbo edition , brings you up to £18,300 
if you are comparing like for like the turbo edition with automatic makes it £20,000

Normally you find whilst the EVs command a higher premium price they are also the more premium model of the cars


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There are very few sensible people around sadly who do work things out that way.
		
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What he said ^


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I find it hard to compare "entry" level prices for EV vs ICE

for example my car "entry" level you can get a corsa SE edition for £17,300.. thats a manual 1.2 petrol
the corsa electric starts at  £25,800 .. so thats £8500 , but doesnt paint the full picture

to get a simular speed car you need the turbo edition , brings you up to £18,300
if you are comparing like for like the turbo edition with automatic makes it £20,000

Normally you find whilst the EVs command a higher premium price they are also the more premium model of the cars
		
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What if you don't want one that is faster, has bells and whistles?

My sister changed her car back in November and the salesman couldn't get his head around her not wanting bigger wheels, fancier stereo, sexier paint job, bigger engine etc. She wants an A - B car, she won't be alone in that.


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## DaveR (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			When you say entry level costs. I presume you are talking about second hand cars with those prices?

The model 3 as a company car is a much cheaper option than a lot of other cars that have a lower otr price from a dealer.
		
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No I'm not, new entry level cars from companies like Kia are available from around 10k. What percentage of people have access to company cars?


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

Very few people understand interest  rates, even fewer understand residual values and even less the BiK system and next to nobody caters for inflation. So most just look at the monthly number and to hell with the future.

Even Fleet and Transport managers work in the happy world of ignorance.

It's not surprising that the difference in the whole life costs of EVs and ICEs never come in the decision making


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			No I'm not, new entry level cars from companies like Kia are available from around 10k. What percentage of people have access to company cars?
		
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With the advent of covid, how many companies have scrapped company car schemes or vastly reduced them? I certainly know people in companies that have slashed their schemes, surely part of the reason the second hand market has gone crazy as people still need cars to get around locally in. Way fewer reps on the road, no casual drop ins for 2 years, way more meetings on zoom etc. Big cost savings for companies to get rid of cars.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2022)

Could the issue over replacing the batteries mean that the market for second hand EVs is going to crash? Once the battery is out of warranty who's going to buy a second hand EV knowing that they could be facing a bill of £10k (or whatever it might be) to replace the battery if or when it goes wrong? For example, if a second hand Tesla that's 9 years old and valued at £20k, assuming the previous post about an 8 year warranty is correct, could need a new battery that will cost £10k then that halves the value of the car.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What if you don't want one that is faster, has bells and whistles?

My sister changed her car back in November and the salesman couldn't get his head around her not wanting bigger wheels, fancier stereo, sexier paint job, bigger engine etc. She wants an A - B car, she won't be alone in that.
		
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would they ness be buying new if its just an A-B car? second hand maybe, when you can compare many EVs to just normal run arounds, somebody needs to break through with a really really basic EV. MG are coming out with some .. think the cheapest around (might suit A-B but dunno circumstances) is the Smart car EV £20k start 

I dont think they are marketing it for not having things tho, the price is already high so if they go proper basic and have to add things it will look even more unattractive 
where as here is your EV but it comes with all this.. more of a selling point, in the majority .. will always be cases like your sister who just want A-B


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			would they ness be buying new if its just an A-B car? second hand maybe, when you can compare many EVs to just normal run arounds, somebody needs to break through with a really really basic EV. MG are coming out with some .. think the cheapest around (might suit A-B but dunno circumstances) is the Smart car EV £20k start

I dont think they are marketing it for not having things tho, the price is already high so if they go proper basic and have to add things it will look even more unattractive
where as here is your EV but it comes with all this.. more of a selling point, in the majority .. will always be cases like your sister who just want A-B
		
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If you buy new, I'm going off my sister here, you get the full warranty, best finance deal etc. There is also the buzz of being the only owner, first one in the car, you know how it has been treated etc. My next door neighbours are the same. Every 3 years they buy a brand new, basic trim Astra. Their old one wont have 20k on the clock but it is what they do.

I'm not anti electric by the way but price absolutely is an issue, it can't be avoided.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could the issue over replacing the batteries mean that the market for second hand EVs is going to crash? Once the battery is out of warranty who's going to buy a second hand EV knowing that they could be facing a bill of £10k (or whatever it might be) to replace the battery if or when it goes wrong? For example, if a second hand Tesla that's 9 years old and valued at £20k, assuming the previous post about an 8 year warranty is correct, could need a new battery that will cost £10k then that halves the value of the car.
		
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Depends what you want the car for.
The health of the battery can be checked before purchase and if it is low, then that can be used in the negotiations for the cost of the car. And if you only use the car as a run around, you won't need 100's of miles of range so in the end, you're not paying the extra for 200 mile range that you don't need.
If however you're doing 50,000 miles a year, stick with your ICE car for the time being


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you buy new, I'm going off my sister here, you get the full warranty, best finance deal etc. There is also the buzz of being the only owner, first one in the car, you know how it has been treated etc. My next door neighbours are the same. Every 3 years they buy a brand new, basic trim Astra. Their old one wont have 20k on the clock but it is what they do.

I'm not anti electric by the way but price absolutely is an issue, it can't be avoided.
		
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I have always found If you want to go new (for the reasons above, which im guilty of) leasing it by far the best way to deal with it, yes you own nothing of the car in 3 years or whatever but all you have paid out is the depreciation 

you also arent in charge of taxing it so even if you were getting a gas guzzler they pay those costs


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			No I'm not, new entry level cars from companies like Kia are available from around 10k. What percentage of people have access to company cars?
		
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Lots of people have access to a company car scheme. Of course not everyone does and I didn’t suggest they did. 

It doesn’t look like many people are buying £10k Kia’s. Which start at £11,450.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/354230/best-selling-cars-uk-2020?amp


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I have always found If you want to go new (for the reasons above, which im guilty of) leasing it by far the best way to deal with it, yes you own nothing of the car in 3 years or whatever but all you have paid out is the depreciation

you also arent in charge of taxing it so even if you were getting a gas guzzler they pay those costs
		
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I leased, via work, for years before buying a second hand car last year, BIK rates pushed me over the edge and no electric or hybrid suits me right now. Anyway, I get your point about leasing but for many people, generally older, it doesn't sit right, doesn't feel right. They want to 'own' the car. In the case of my sister I told her about leasing but she generally keeps a car for 6-8 years so buying does make sense in this case. For those changing evey few years, I'm with you


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I leased, via work, for years before buying a second hand car last year, BIK rates pushed me over the edge and no electric or hybrid suits me right now. Anyway, I get your point about leasing but for many people, generally older, it doesn't sit right, doesn't feel right. They want to 'own' the car. In the case of my sister I told her about leasing but she generally keeps a car for 6-8 years so buying does make sense in this case. For those changing evey few years, I'm with you 

Click to expand...

Yeah doesn't sit well for everyone, just how different people see different things diff ways 

My boss when I bought my hrv I believe it was 28k and it was suppose to last 10 years was the plan 

He showed me his contact who said I could have leased the same car 5 times (2 year deals) paid 24k think he said basically in the fees which saves 4k which in 10 years how much will the car be worth? Who knows 

Doesn't work for everyone


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## williamalex1 (Jan 28, 2022)

A friend bought a MG zs ev last week and so far so good. 
Seemingly he has to buy the home charger unit from the supplier and the electrician who installs it has to be approved and registered with the supplier.
ATM he has a Scottish government EV card the allows him to charge the battery for free at certain sites.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 28, 2022)

Too often I have read that car leasing is the next financial crisis waiting to happen, so I wonder at what point the consumer is forced to take a real world long term view on buying a car because only then will the real costs be addressed.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

Let's face it, everyone's needs are different, whether you drive 50 miles a week or a 1000 miles a week.
In the past, you had a choice of petrol or diesel.
Now there is a 3rd option, Ev's
Isn't more choice better?
Right now, the Ev doesn't suit everyone, I know that.
So for those people, keep buying your ICE cars but keep your eyes open, things are changing fast.
Would I buy an electric car? absolutely but have you seen the price of them


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Let's face it, everyone's needs are different, whether you drive 50 miles a week or a 1000 miles a week.
In the past, you had a choice of petrol or diesel.
Now there is a 3rd option, Ev's
Isn't more choice better?
Right now, the Ev doesn't suit everyone, I know that.
So for those people, keep buying your ICE cars but keep your eyes open, things are changing fast.
Would I buy an electric car? absolutely but have you seen the price of them  

Click to expand...

After buying (or leasing should I say) one , I don't want to return to ICE

My plan is another ev to replace this one , then when my fixed mortgage is up in 8 years and I know what interest rates look like I can address the second car. Should have plenty of options then 

If I get a bigger ev this time round (say a id4 size) I may be able to ditch the big car sooner and just replace with something like a leaf for running around


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Too often I have read that car leasing is the next financial crisis waiting to happen, so I wonder at what point the consumer is forced to take a real world long term view on buying a car because only then will the real costs be addressed.
		
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I've had this chat with others, sometimes whilst playing golf, to keep the forum theme going . Anyway, like you, I seem to have heard this for a good while yet it hasn't happened so far. Will it or is the threat just that and no more?  I do see some of the numbers and wonder though .


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

My 6 year old still holds 95% of battery charge. Just because the warranty ends after 8 or10 years the battery can be fine and will only slowly decline the full charge capability.

A battery  'pack' contains numerous individual cells and usually its just one or two cells that loose max voltage and these can be swapped out. For about £40 you can buy a OBD reader and with a bit of free software on you phone you can see the voltages of each cell etc so there is no need to buy an EV in the dark


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Not necessarily.

Assuming the cars are the same spec and have the same options.

Smiffy will tell you how much the monthlies are dependent on the deposit you put down, which is dependent on the financing option you choose.

*Then. Anyone sensible will do the maths for how much fuel versus how much electricity they will typically use, tax, insurance etc and figure out the total cost of ownership*.
		
Click to expand...

Range. Time to "refuel". Those are huge issues that nobody who is an EV fan tries to answer, plus, now we have the battery life which we're going to start seeing more and more horror stories as batteries start dying.

I'm with IanM, we're at the 3310 stage, I don't even want a Blackberry, I want a car that doesn;t give me the inconvenience of the current electric cars, that has 500 mile range, and has a battery that will last 20 years/200,000 miles. Give me that and I'll give it serious consideration

Of course by the time that comes along, the cost of running an EV will be taxed to make up for the lost petrol/diesel revenue, so your cost savings will have gone.


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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			My 6 year old still holds 95% of battery charge. Just because the warranty ends after 8 or10 years the battery can be fine and will only slowly decline the full charge capability.

A battery  'pack' contains numerous individual cells and usually its just one or two cells that loose max voltage and these can be swapped out. For about £40 you can buy a OBD reader and with a bit of free software on you phone you can see the voltages of each cell etc so there is no need to buy an EV in the dark
		
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Fifth Gear Recharged TV show did an episode on Norway - big EV adoption - recently and they showed a EV from China (Nio) where you don't recharge the battery as much as swap it out by driving into a shed-like structure where the machinery comes out of the flor and swaps it over for a new one unless than 5 mins. Saves on charging time, but also could do away with battery ageing too.

See: this YouTube video


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've had this chat with others, sometimes whilst playing golf, to keep the forum theme going . Anyway, like you, I seem to have heard this for a good while yet it hasn't happened so far. Will it or is the threat just that and no more?  I do see some of the numbers and wonder though .
		
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Same chats on the course about how certain things will cause interest rates to rise to 5-10% in x years (should be in by now)

car leasing is one thats touted but tbh leasing has its place.. it props up the car makers.. and creates the second hand market with "approved used" a lot etc


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Range. Time to "refuel". Those are huge issues that nobody who is an EV fan tries to answer, plus, now we have the battery life which we're going to start seeing more and more horror stories as batteries start dying.

I'm with IanM, we're at the 3310 stage, I don't even want a Blackberry, I want a car that doesn;t give me the inconvenience of the current electric cars, that has 5400 mile range, and has a battery that will last 20 years/200,000 miles. Give me that and I'll give it serious consideration

Of course by the time that comes along, the cost of running an EV will be taxed to make up for the lost petrol/diesel revenue, so your cost savings will have gone.
		
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Works both ways tho. Anti ev will not accept any compromise in what they have now . The middle ground can be swayed 

The new mg ev 250 mile range that's decent

My car charge from 20-80%  on a 100kw charge is 20 mins

Leave home full, stop at 20 % which if working on average of 170 range is 136 miles driven 

Plug in, have a wee break and a drink. In that time it's at 80% and I'm good for another 100 miles (down to 20%)

Now really for safety reasons alone should you drive over 100 miles in a go? Prob not but we do. The highway code suggests a break every 2 hours , how many do?  100 miles roughly 2 hours so the theory works but in practice too many factors 

Have to look how far you drive regularly rather than the one off 600 miles in a day drive 

If you have a good charging network around you and you can do the distance it's worth it

If like me you have a driveway and drive reasonable distance for your range it's worth it 

I'll plug in tonight after 2 days of 50 miles a day and wake up with a full charge 

That for me works, and next time I want to replace this ev with one with 250 mile - 300 range and a bigger boot


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Range. Time to "refuel". *Those are huge issues that nobody who is an EV fan tries to answer,* plus, now we have the battery life which we're going to start seeing more and more horror stories as batteries start dying.
		
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Banchory Buddha said:



			I'm with IanM, we're at the 3310 stage, I don't even want a Blackberry, I want a car that doesn;t give me the inconvenience of the current electric cars, that has *5400 mile range*, and has a *battery that will last 20 years/200,000 miles*. Give me that and I'll give it serious consideration
		
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Ridiculous statement 



Banchory Buddha said:



			Of course by the time that comes along, the cost of running an EV will be taxed to make up for the lost petrol/diesel revenue, so your cost savings will have gone.
		
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How about the improved air quality in towns and cities that children breathe every day. Saving money isn't everything.


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## RichA (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Works both ways tho. Anti ev will not accept any compromise in what they have now . The middle ground can be swayed

The new mg ev 250 mile range that's decent

My car charge from 20-80%  on a 100kw charge is 20 mins

Leave home full, stop at 20 % which if working on average of 170 range is 136 miles driven

Plug in, have a wee break and a drink. In that time it's at 80% and I'm good for another 100 miles (down to 20%)

Now really for safety reasons alone should you drive over 100 miles in a go? Prob not but we do. The highway code suggests a break every 2 hours , how many do?  100 miles roughly 2 hours so the theory works but in practice too many factors

Have to look how far you drive regularly rather than the one off 600 miles in a day drive

If you have a good charging network around you and you can do the distance it's worth it

If like me you have a driveway and drive reasonable distance for your range it's worth it

I'll plug in tonight after 2 days of 50 miles a day and wake up with a full charge

That for me works, and next time I want to replace this ev with one with 250 mile - 300 range and a bigger boot
		
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My most frequent journey of any distance is once every week or 2 to see my Dad, 128 miles away. It takes me 2 1/2 hours and I do each leg in one go. Would an adapter for a standard 240v socket provide enough charge in a few hours to stave off range anxiety for the homeward journey? Mostly doing this round trip in a day and not wishing to spend an hour in a service station is the main thing that puts me off looking at EVs at the moment.


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

RichA said:



			My most frequent journey of any distance is once every week or 2 to see my Dad, 128 miles away. It takes me 2 1/2 hours and I do each leg in one go. Would an adapter for a standard 240v socket provide enough charge in a few hours to stave off range anxiety for the homeward journey? Mostly doing this round trip in a day and not wishing to spend an hour in a service station is the main thing that puts me off looking at EVs at the moment.
		
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Depends how long you stay with him, and the range of the battery.
What you could do is help him out by taking him shopping and if you have a local Tesco, many of them have free charging so you could charge while you shop. Failing that stop off on the way home and charge for 15 mins, that would give you enough to get home, you don't need to stop for an hour.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2022)

I heard somewhere than an hour in a socket gives about 5 miles of range. Very generalised, and not sure if it makes any sense as I still work in l/100km myself ;-)


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## Pants (Jan 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Fifth Gear Recharged TV show did an episode on Norway - big EV adoption - recently and they showed a EV from China (Nio) where you don't recharge the battery as much as swap it out by driving into a shed-like structure where the machinery comes out of the flor and swaps it over for a new one unless than 5 mins. Saves on charging time, but also could do away with battery ageing too.
/QUOTE]

I wonder why they didn't mention anticipaeted cost!  Would imagine that it's a (relatively) costly operation to set up and run so a pure guess would be at least half the cost of a full tank of petrol every time 

Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

RichA said:



			My most frequent journey of any distance is once every week or 2 to see my Dad, 128 miles away. It takes me 2 1/2 hours and I do each leg in one go. Would an adapter for a standard 240v socket provide enough charge in a few hours to stave off range anxiety for the homeward journey? Mostly doing this round trip in a day and not wishing to spend an hour in a service station is the main thing that puts me off looking at EVs at the moment.
		
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If you plug in a standard plug socket depends on the lead but even on a 10a limited one you get 2kw an hour .. mine I can crank up to 13a and push 3kw out .. I set to 10 so I don't blow ring mains when plugging in if someone offers me .. work have an outside plug I can use and we don't wnna risk blowing the building so just set to 10 

So depends on size of battery and how long your there 

4 hour visit on the 10a plug 8kw added , 13a plug 12kw added 

On a 45kw battery like mine that's just under 20% battery and just over 25% on the 13

So going by fag packet maths as they say 

45 kw gets say 170 miles - 128 miles plus the 34 from 20% no it wouldn't starve off range issues 

However I suspect you would have a bigger battery than a Corsa? So if you had like a 62kw battery you should be fine


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:







Ridiculous statement



.
		
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Typo, clearly I meant 500 mile range, ie a full tank for most cars.

And what's ridiculous about 20 year engine life? Most diesels you're looking nearer half a million than 200k.

And yes you may laugh about explaining range & refuelling, PJ87 has just done it. Load of nonsense. So in order to refuel, I have to stop, have a coffee and sandwich, then carry on? That's an explanation for sure, a bloody ridiculous one. I regularly do Aberdeen to Warrington, 350 miles, if I have no passengers then I'm not stopping, and I'll have plenty in the tank when I get to the other end.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How about the improved air quality in towns and cities that children breathe every day. Saving money isn't everything.
		
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You're aware for modern petrol & diesel this argument no longer exists?


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're aware for modern petrol & diesel this argument no longer exists?
		
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Nonsense, unless they emissions free now?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're aware for modern petrol & diesel this argument no longer exists?
		
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It certainly still does I'm afraid. Even with modern cars there is still the pollution

On the flip side the new petrol is awful from everyone I've heard using it and costing them even more to run


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I regularly do Aberdeen to Warrington, 350 miles, if I have no passengers then I'm not stopping, and I'll have plenty in the tank when I get to the other end.
		
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Aberdeen to Warrington would take 6 hours? Without jams/road works? Without a stop?
Most people struggle to play 9 holes without a 'comfort stop'.



Banchory Buddha said:



			You're aware for modern petrol & diesel this argument no longer exists?
		
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Ok, sit in your car with the windows open in a garage with all the doors shut and your engine running for an hour and tell me how you feel.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Aberdeen to Warrington would take 6 hours? Without jams/road works? Without a stop?
Most people struggle to play 9 holes without a 'comfort stop'.



Ok, sit in your car with the windows open in a garage with all the doors shut and your engine running for an hour and tell me how you feel.
		
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Have to admit since driving the ev I notice the smell of my diesel more. Guess just used to the non smell 

With regards to breaks I used to drive 4 hours without a break often 

Think my record was up to hull pick my mate up and then straight back home only stopped for 2 mins wee at her house 

That was about 7 hours 

Wouldn't dare do that now 

I'd prob do 1:30-2 hours max then need a break anyways .. if with kids then you got about hour and half before they need a wee


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## DaveR (Jan 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Lots of people have access to a company car scheme. Of course not everyone does and I didn’t suggest they did.

It doesn’t look like many people are buying £10k Kia’s. Which start at £11,450.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/354230/best-selling-cars-uk-2020?amp

Click to expand...

Sorry how remiss of me to get the price wrong. Did you see that my post said 'from around'? Still, nice pedantry on your part.
For the record  the cheapest new car on sale in the UK in 2021 was the Dacia Sandero starting at £7995. I've seen lots of those on the road.


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## road2ruin (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			And yes you may laugh about explaining range & refuelling, PJ87 has just done it. Load of nonsense. So in order to refuel, I have to stop, have a coffee and sandwich, then carry on? That's an explanation for sure, a bloody ridiculous one. I regularly do Aberdeen to Warrington, 350 miles, if I have no passengers then I'm not stopping, and I'll have plenty in the tank when I get to the other end.
		
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To be fair you’re probably the exception rather than the rule though. For you an EV is just not practical at the moment but for the majority of people an EV with a range of 120 odd miles would probably cover 90% of their journeys. 

The car I have coming has a supposed range of 270 odd miles. I might get 250 ish in summer and probably closer to 210 in winter however bar a family holiday in Cornwall the rest of my driving will easily be covered by this. I suspect it would many others as well. 

The other factor for me is that my present motor will do about 220 miles to a tank around town and might touch 260 on a long journey so the EV range doesn’t bother me.


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## chellie (Jan 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Sorry how remiss of me to get the price wrong. Did you see that my post said 'from around'? Still, nice pedantry on your part.
For the record  the cheapest new car on sale in the UK in 2021 was the Dacia Sandero starting at £7995. I've seen lots of those on the road.
		
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As an aside the safety rating of that is horrendous! Think I saw it in What Car


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## cliveb (Jan 28, 2022)

chellie said:



			As an aside the safety rating of that is horrendous! Think I saw it in What Car
		
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Plenty of decent cars have poor NCAP ratings.
For example, the Renault Zoe (most popular EV in Europe, I believe) has an NCAP rating of zero(!), while the Dacia Spring (EV based on Renault bits) at least manages a rating of 1.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			You're aware for modern petrol & diesel this argument no longer exists?
		
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Twaddle!


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## chellie (Jan 28, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Plenty of decent cars have poor NCAP ratings.
For example, the Renault Zoe (most popular EV in Europe, I believe) has an NCAP rating of zero(!), while the Dacia Spring (EV based on Renault bits) at least manages a rating of 1.
		
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Ah, had no idea. Only saw the Dacia one as was looking at them.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			...
I regularly do Aberdeen to Warrington, *350 miles*, if I have no passengers then *I'm not stopping*, and I'll have plenty in the tank when I get to the other end.
		
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Irresponsibly selfish attitude to driving!


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2022)

I think the Nissan Leaf has a 5 star NCAP rating and there's a few of them


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 28, 2022)

IanM said:



			If lecky cars are like mobile phones, we're only just at the point they'd fit in your pocket.  No cameras or apps yet either!

I'll wait till the equivalent evolution of an iPhone 6 arrives.
		
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I deliver cars to journalists to review, and I was talking to a well known motoring journo a few weeks ago about this very subject. 

He sees this as a chance to totally re invent the wheel, but as yet, everyone is playing safe and just replacing the engine/ drive mechanisms, 

There is so much scope to do something really different, but nobody seems willing to make that first step in design change.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I deliver cars to journalists to review, and I was talking to a well known motoring journo a few weeks ago about this very subject.

He sees this as a chance to totally re invent the wheel, but as yet, everyone is playing safe and just replacing the engine/ drive mechanisms,

There is so much scope to do something really different, but nobody seems willing to make that first step in design change.
		
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I was hoping for a change of economy direction post covid to grow the green Revolution

More hybrid working, reducing cars on roads and reducing peak transport to manageable levels 

Get hubs for offices to work remotely darted around locations in UK.. so people could live local to "the office" 

We had a real chance to really rebound and relaunch the way we do things to make us greener 

Evs have their part, but like car clubs.. long distance train travel ..

Alas the way things have been scaled back I think we are further from net zero than we could have been


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## BiMGuy (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I was hoping for a change of economy direction post covid to grow the green Revolution

More hybrid working, reducing cars on roads and reducing peak transport to manageable levels

Get hubs for offices to work remotely darted around locations in UK.. so people could live local to "the office"

We had a real chance to really rebound and relaunch the way we do things to make us greener

Evs have their part, but like car clubs.. long distance train travel ..

Alas the way things have been scaled back I think we are further from net zero than we could have been
		
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Too many people scared of change for that to happen. There was an opportunity for a positive change but we’ll trudge back in to doing things the way we’ve always done them.


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I deliver cars to journalists to review, and I was talking to a well known motoring journo a few weeks ago about this very subject.

He sees this as a chance to totally re invent the wheel, but as yet, everyone is playing safe and just replacing the engine/ drive mechanisms,

There is so much scope to do something really different, but nobody seems willing to make that first step in design change.
		
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Too much capital locked up in the world's Automotive sector. Look at the various studies at Leeds, London, Cranfield, Warwick and Westminster Unies' Transportation units from the 1970s onwards and see the many mass transport initiatives for towns and cities.

We're riding a super tanker which will take a major shock to manufacturing and investment structures to change course.


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## cliveb (Jan 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think the Nissan Leaf has a 5 star NCAP rating and there's a few of them
		
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May no longer be the case.
Back when it was first introduced, the Renault Zoe got 5 stars. It's only since NCAP changed their tests that it's dropped to 0.
I frankly can't understand how the tests could have changed so much. Are they still genuinely testing realistic safety features, or have they run out of meaningful things to check and just added loads of questionable stuff to justify their existence?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I was hoping for a change of economy direction post covid to grow the green Revolution

More hybrid working, reducing cars on roads and reducing peak transport to manageable levels

Get hubs for offices to work remotely darted around locations in UK.. so people could live local to "the office"

We had a real chance to really rebound and relaunch the way we do things to make us greener

Evs have their part, but like car clubs.. long distance train travel ..

Alas the way things have been scaled back I think we are further from net zero than we could have been
		
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As someone who has the pleasure of the daily drive into central London and drive home again, it might surprise you that the busiest times on the road now are from around  2:30 till 6pm, and it's kids transportation traffic thats creating the congestion over what there used to be. This has been the case since the work from home directive came into force, and no better when the kids weren't at school when it really was bad.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2022)

cliveb said:



			May no longer be the case.
Back when it was first introduced, the Renault Zoe got 5 stars. It's only since NCAP changed their tests that it's dropped to 0.
I frankly can't understand how the tests could have changed so much. Are they still genuinely testing realistic safety features, or have they run out of meaningful things to check and just added loads of questionable stuff to justify their existence?
		
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Maybe they are grading on a scale. Everything is getting better, but then you have to make the older ones worse


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## cliveb (Jan 29, 2022)

larmen said:



			Maybe they are grading on a scale. Everything is getting better, but then you have to make the older ones worse
		
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Well yes, of course. But there's something not quite right when the scale changes so much that a Zoe is now classified as no safer than, say, a Model T Ford.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			And what's ridiculous about 20 year engine life? Most diesels you're looking nearer half a million than 200k.
		
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The battery pack is not the engine, it's where the energy is stored to run the motor and some say the newer batteries will outlast the car.
_''Under current estimates, most electric car batteries will *last somewhere between 10-20 years before they need to be replaced*.''_
https://blog.evbox.com/uk-en/ev-bat... most electric,lose charge capacity over time.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

cliveb said:



			May no longer be the case.
		
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Both models 2012 and 2018 got 5 stars




https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings...AssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The battery pack is not the engine, it's where the energy is stored to run the motor and some say the newer batteries will outlast the car.
_''Under current estimates, most electric car batteries will *last somewhere between 10-20 years before they need to be replaced*.''_
https://blog.evbox.com/uk-en/ev-battery-longevity#:~:text=Under current estimates, most electric,lose charge capacity over time.
		
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Not forgetting, you can re-use the electricity in the batteries, I don't think you can do that with petrol or diesel


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## cliveb (Jan 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Both models 2012 and 2018 got 5 stars

View attachment 40862

Click to expand...

Good to see. I was only speculating based on the Zoe's change. Presumably Nissan have updated the Leaf more actively than Renault have the Zoe.
(BTW, when I test drove a Leaf I hated the interior - far too jazzed up, like being in a video game. The Zoe felt comfortable, like a "normal" car)


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## pauljames87 (Jan 29, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Good to see. I was only speculating based on the Zoe's change. Presumably Nissan have updated the Leaf more actively than Renault have the Zoe.
(BTW, when I test drove a Leaf I hated the interior - far too jazzed up, like being in a video game. The Zoe felt comfortable, like a "normal" car)
		
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The Corsa feels inside like a normal car, as does the mokka I believe 

Zoe is suppose to be brilliant, leaf I was impressed with however the leaf is built from the ground up to be an electric car .. the Corsa for example is just same as their petrol .. even the charge spot is where the petrol would be. Leaf is on the front for example 

What would be great is one at the back and one at front . Just for ease of use ... Under the badge like the VW golf was


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Good to see. I was only speculating based on the Zoe's change. Presumably Nissan have updated the Leaf more actively than Renault have the Zoe.
(BTW, when I test drove a Leaf I hated the interior - far too jazzed up, like being in a video game. The Zoe felt comfortable, like a "normal" car)
		
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I'm the opposite, not a big fan of the Zoe interior


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## Fade and Die (Jan 29, 2022)

Had an email from my lease company telling me my current lease ends in 8 months. So I need to start thinking about our next car. 
This one I had on a personal lease as the BIK was ridiculous. However it looks like a full electric car has BIK rate of 1% raising to 2% in 2023. So a company car it is then! Budget around £400 per month.

Driving habits are in the main short journeys around the SE which all EVs are suited for but 2/3 times a year we go to Cumbria…Early enquiries has me split between a long range job like the e-Niro or Kia EV6 which I can load up with the 4 of us + dog + roof box and do the longer drives in stages. It’s a hassle but it’s only a few times a year. Or go for something a bit more interesting looking like the ID3 or maybe the Cupra Born, and rent a wagon for trips up north. (Mind you a 2 week rental of a XC90 is over £1k!)

I’ll be doing lots of reading of reviews etc maybe a few visits to the dealers too before deciding.😀


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The Corsa feels inside like a normal car, as does the mokka I believe

Zoe is suppose to be brilliant, leaf I was impressed with however the leaf is built from the ground up to be an electric car .. the Corsa for example is just same as their petrol .. even the charge spot is where the petrol would be. Leaf is on the front for example

What would be great is one at the back and one at front . Just for ease of use ... Under the badge like the VW golf was
		
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Let's face it, the design of most new cars these days is pretty rubbish and probably done with crayons, but each to their own.


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## cliveb (Jan 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Or go for something a bit more interesting looking like the ID3 or maybe the Cupra Born, and rent a wagon for trips up north. (Mind you a 2 week rental of a XC90 is over £1k!)
		
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Take the train and rent a cheap runaround while up there?


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## DaveR (Jan 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Not forgetting, you can re-use the electricity in the batteries, I don't think you can do that with petrol or diesel
		
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What do you currently drive?


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2022)

I've got a Skoda Octavia diesel but saving hard for possibly a 2018/9 Nissan Leaf


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## Fade and Die (Jan 29, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Take the train and rent a cheap runaround while up there?
		
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🤔…….Taxi for 4 + dog + luggage to Romford, all pile onto the train to Liverpool St, then off the train and into the Tube to Euston, off the tube then onto the intercity Train to Carlisle to pick up a car that has to fit 4+ the dog + luggage, then a 40 minute drive to the MILs. Sounds tempting 😄


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## pauljames87 (Jan 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			🤔…….Taxi for 4 + dog + luggage to Romford, all pile onto the train to Liverpool St, then off the train and into the Tube to Euston, off the tube then onto the intercity Train to Carlisle to pick up a car that has to fit 4+ the dog + luggage, then a 40 minute drive to the MILs. Sounds tempting 😄
		
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Surely any reason to avoid the mother in law is a plus?


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## larmen (Jan 29, 2022)

There are a couple of people here where I would say a plug in hybrid would be their best choice? Are these hybrids still ‘future proof’ or are they outdated by the acceleration of EVs already?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 29, 2022)

larmen said:



			There are a couple of people here where I would say a plug in hybrid would be their best choice? Are these hybrids still ‘future proof’ or are they outdated by the acceleration of EVs already?
		
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Their future proof to an extent .. ie you can still buy and use one.. but they are being banned aswell from 2035 from brand new sale

however not to stop people buying one in 2035 brand new and having best of both worlds until then

I know people who own them and can get to work and back on the charge they provide (40 miles) or you can use them to make your petrol go further


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2022)

larmen said:



			There are a couple of people here where I would say a plug in hybrid would be their best choice? Are these hybrids still ‘future proof’ or are they outdated by the acceleration of EVs already?
		
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I know people with plug in hybrids and they have been a major disappointment. They don't go as far as hoped on charge alone and if you do a long journey the economy is poor. It's basically a small engine dragging a car weighed down with heavy batteries. I was tempted at one point but was soon put off. Perhaps they have improved but I suspect mfrs are concentrating on pure electric now and not putting the investment into improving these.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know people with plug in hybrids and they have been a major disappointment. They don't go as far as hoped on charge alone and if you do a long journey the economy is poor. It's basically a small engine dragging a car weighed down with heavy batteries. I was tempted at one point but was soon put off. Perhaps they have improved but I suspect mfrs are concentrating on pure electric now and not putting the investment into improving these.
		
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Indeed. Compromise often means 'the worst of both' cf 'the best of both'! The only real benefit I see is the 'comfort' of not being stuck if it runs out of charge - which it's more likely to do anyway!


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## Smiffy (Jan 30, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



*I also wouldn’t trust a car salesman to tell me the truth.* I do my own research and sums.
		
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You've been speaking to the wrong salesmen...


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			You've been speaking to the wrong salesmen...
		
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It’s what they don’t tell you that’s the problem!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s what they don’t tell you that’s the problem!
		
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Is it?  Or is it what you don't ask...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			🤔…….Taxi for 4 + dog + luggage to Romford, all pile onto the train to Liverpool St, then off the train and into the Tube to Euston, off the tube then onto the intercity Train to Carlisle to pick up a car that has to fit 4+ the dog + luggage, then a 40 minute drive to the MILs. Sounds tempting 😄
		
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Romford to Carlisle return on a Saturday is £135 each, ( just base national rail fares) add the taxi and the car hire and it’s quite a wedge whichever way you do it. 

TrainSplit will do 2 adults and 2 kids for £405 return ( under 5 years old are free) takes 4:45 hours 

A normal car trip is just over 5 hours without stops, 350 miles , with an EV you may need to factor in 2 recharge stops each taking 45 -60 minutes cost about 12 each time, trip will take 7-8 hours but will be substantially cheaper

Just take a bit longer and enjoy the scenery

This also assumes that there is somewhere you can recharge it oop north for the return 👍


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## Smiffy (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s what they don’t tell you that’s the problem!
		
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As long as they answer the questions you've asked truthfully, what's the problem?
They're salesmen, not mind readers...
🥺🥺🥺


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Romford to Carlisle return on a Saturday is £135 each, ( just base national rail fares) add the taxi and the car hire and it’s quite a wedge whichever way you do it.

TrainSplit will do 2 adults and 2 kids for £405 return ( under 5 years old are free) takes 4:45 hours

A normal car trip is just over 5 hours without stops, 350 miles , with an EV you may need to factor in 2 recharge stops each taking 45 -60 minutes cost about 12 each time, trip will take 7-8 hours but will be substantially cheaper

Just take a bit longer and enjoy the scenery

This also assumes that there is somewhere you can recharge it oop north for the return 👍
		
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How are you finding delivering electric cars? Do you enjoy the drive of them


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 30, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			As long as they answer the questions you've asked truthfully, what's the problem?
*They're salesmen, not mind readers...*
🥺🥺🥺
		
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I thought you were both mate...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			How are you finding delivering electric cars? Do you enjoy the drive of them
		
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They are lovely to drive, smooth and nippy, more suited to urban driving rather than long motorway trips, as the range suffers over 60 mph

The problems we have are for the longer deliveries that require 2 or more recharge stops which limits what else the driver can do that day, therefore long EV deliveries tend to cost more than long ICE ones


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			They are lovely to drive, smooth and nippy, more suited to urban driving rather than long motorway trips, as the range suffers over 60 mph

The problems we have are for the longer deliveries that require 2 or more recharge stops which limits what else the driver can do that day, therefore long EV deliveries tend to cost more than long ICE ones
		
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I find the a406 limit of 50 helps the range greatly 

Anything around 3-3.5 mpkw in winter is great .. I find I'm 4-4.5 in summer / above 10 degree 

Found pre conditioning muchs a huge difference aswell .. started the car cold at work other day I got 15 mins away it was saying 1.5mpkw 

When I've pre conditioned the same 15 mins as it's down hill is about 5-6


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I find the a406 limit of 50 helps the range greatly

Anything around 3-3.5 mpkw in winter is great .. I find I'm 4-4.5 in summer / above 10 degree

Found pre conditioning muchs a huge difference aswell .. started the car cold at work other day I got 15 mins away it was saying 1.5mpkw

When I've pre conditioned the same 15 mins as it's down hill is about 5-6
		
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Yes , freezing conditions are no friend to battery performance. 
From a practical point , picking up a 230 range EV and having to de ice it can take 40 miles off your range, we normally drive them in eco mode which can mean freezing ones Crown Jewels off


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## GreiginFife (Jan 30, 2022)

I finally managed to get a test drive in the new i4 M50 yesterday. Lovely Frozem Portimao Blue but by god the stock alloys are hideous, upgrades are available at a cost though. 

So driving… mixed bag is all I can say. It’s quick, that’s for sure. It’s also very stable and very comfortable. But that’s also it’s downfall, it’s all just a bit dis-engaging and sterile. The piped in exhaust notes (by all accounts courtesy of Hans Zimmer) try to make it feel a bit more “real” and engaging but it does my really quite work as you know it’s fake. 

I enjoyed the test drive but driving home in the 340, it was apparent how very much of a difference in driving experience there is. 

Battery performance, it was fully charged when I picked it up. Range showing as 278 miles. Pressed the start button and all the lively dash lit up like Christmas and the range nudged down to 275. 

Drive out of the dealers and on to the main stretch out of the industrial estate, have it a little shoe, just for scientific purposes of course, acceleration is insane, M3/4 insane. But, and here’s the bit, a stretch of 300/400m wiped 20 miles off the range. 

I took it out round an area and a circuit of A roads, B roads and motorway that I know to be just shy of 45 miles. I drove within speed limits at all times only accelerating away from lights and junctions quickly. Returned to the dealership with 165 miles of range. 

So it’s going to be a big adoption curve from me when one finally becomes available to buy as I have no real idea how energy usage is going to be day to day. 

Comparing this to the 340, I left the dealership and travelled the 26 miles home, starting the journey with 298 miles of range from my 3/4 tank of petrol. I got home with 262 miles of range left and had booted it on a couple of quiet stretches. 

It’s going to be quite interesting seeing how it all stacks up. But it IS a lovely car. 

I haven’t even had my 840 delivered and I’m already on to ordering the new one (yes, it will take that long!)


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I finally managed to get a test drive in the new i4 M50 yesterday. Lovely Frozem Portimao Blue but by god the stock alloys are hideous, upgrades are available at a cost though.

So driving… mixed bag is all I can say. It’s quick, that’s for sure. It’s also very stable and very comfortable. But that’s also it’s downfall, it’s all just a bit dis-engaging and sterile. The piped in exhaust notes (by all accounts courtesy of Hans Zimmer) try to make it feel a bit more “real” and engaging but it does my really quite work as you know it’s fake.

I enjoyed the test drive but driving home in the 340, it was apparent how very much of a difference in driving experience there is.

Battery performance, it was fully charged when I picked it up. Range showing as 278 miles. Pressed the start button and all the lively dash lit up like Christmas and the range nudged down to 275.

Drive out of the dealers and on to the main stretch out of the industrial estate, have it a little shoe, just for scientific purposes of course, acceleration is insane, M3/4 insane. But, and here’s the bit, a stretch of 300/400m wiped 20 miles off the range.

I took it out round an area and a circuit of A roads, B roads and motorway that I know to be just shy of 45 miles. I drove within speed limits at all times only accelerating away from lights and junctions quickly. Returned to the dealership with 165 miles of range.

So it’s going to be a big adoption curve from me when one finally becomes available to buy as I have no real idea how energy usage is going to be day to day.

Comparing this to the 340, I left the dealership and travelled the 26 miles home, starting the journey with 298 miles of range from my 3/4 tank of petrol. I got home with 262 miles of range left and had booted it on a couple of quiet stretches.

It’s going to be quite interesting seeing how it all stacks up. But it IS a lovely car.

I haven’t even had my 840 delivered and I’m already on to ordering the new one (yes, it will take that long!)
		
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The guess o meter is a bit wild on cars ...it's like a round of golf with Bryson the amount of factors that go through its mind at any given minute 

Outside temp, driving conditions, driving style, colour of your shoes 🤣

I left work with 48 miles showing the other day (it was 2 degrees) experience said nah I'll have more than that , true enough drove the 22 miles home and it said 60 miles left


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Romford to Carlisle return on a Saturday is £135 each, ( just base national rail fares) add the taxi and the car hire and it’s quite a wedge whichever way you do it.

TrainSplit will do 2 adults and 2 kids for £405 return ( under 5 years old are free) takes 4:45 hours

A normal car trip is just over 5 hours without stops, 350 miles , with an EV you may need to factor in 2 recharge stops each taking 45 -60 minutes cost about 12 each time, trip will take 7-8 hours but will be substantially cheaper

Just take a bit longer and enjoy the scenery

*This also assumes that there is somewhere you can recharge it oop north for the return* 👍
		
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Add to all the above I hate public transport and it’s a real non-starter!

Yes planning the re-charge is a challenge, after turning off the A1 at Scotch Corner there is not much in the way of civilisation until we get to the MILs so I would need to charge up before then and I expect the chargers at the Scotch corner would have an eye watering tariff. Much like their fuel prices. 

As an electrician I was considering getting an extra Rolec wallpod and always carrying it in the car, I could wire it with a sort of “flylead” to connect to the MILs fuse box whilst we was up there. 😁


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Add to all the above I hate public transport and it’s a real non-starter!

Yes planning the re-charge is a challenge, after turning off the A1 at Scotch Corner there is not much in the way of civilisation until we get to the MILs so I would need to charge up before then and I expect the chargers at the Scotch corner would have an eye watering tariff. Much like their fuel prices.

As an electrician I was considering getting an extra Rolec wallpod and always carrying it in the car, I could wire it with a sort of “flylead” to connect to the MILs fuse box whilst we was up there. 😁
		
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Or just use a granny charger up there ? If your staying up there will be ample


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			As long as they answer the questions you've asked truthfully, what's the problem?
They're salesmen, not mind readers...
🥺🥺🥺
		
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Not doubting your integrity for a moment Mr Smith but there are others who in my experience withhold certain things. Glyn Hopkins Romford…. I’m looking at you!!


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## spongebob59 (Jan 30, 2022)

I drove the Honda Jazz HEV on Friday,a truly horrible experience, Honda have got this horribly wrong with the CVT being the only option.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Or just use a granny charger up there ? If your staying up there will be ample
		
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Do you mean Granny on a bike linked to a dynamo….. or a 3 pin plug charger which will charge about 70 miles worth overnight? 

Askin for a friend 👍


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Do you mean Granny on a bike linked to a dynamo….. or a 3 pin plug charger which will charge about 70 miles worth overnight?

Askin for a friend 👍
		
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Well I'd combine the two to save a bit of cost .. 

Charge overnight 24 kw added every 12 hours assuming 10a limit .. poss more on a 13a if supported 

We have an outside socket at work in the car park we can put our granny chargers on if No1 is using it.. on a 10 hour night it tops you up nicely


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Or just use a granny charger up there ? If your staying up there will be ample
		
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What’s your real life experience with them, reading the blurb they seem very slow?
E.g 1 mile for every 8 minutes on charge. Also it’s pulling 10A I can imagine it gets pretty pricey.

Edit: seen your post. Seems ok to use if someone else is paying the bill 😁


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			What’s your real life experience with them, reading the blurb they seem very slow?
E.g 1 mile for every 8 minutes on charge. Also it’s pulling 10A I can imagine it gets pretty pricey.
		
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I find them decent enough when needed , like posted above if I'm on a 10 or 12 hour shift and the sockets available that's up to 50% charge whilst I'm not using the car 

Even if you paid your mother in law for all the kw usage it would be cheaper than charging at road side


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			I drove the Honda Jazz HEV on Friday,a truly horrible experience, Honda have got this horribly wrong with the CVT being the only option.
		
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I havent heard of an HEV/EV being anything other than auto.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I havent heard of an HEV/EV being anything other than auto.
		
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There are a few that are manual but only mild hybrids not plug ins

Ford puma
Hyundai Tucson
Ford Fiesta
Kia Stonic
Suzuki Ignis

https://www.evanshalshaw.com/blog/hybrid-cars-with-manual-transmission/


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There are a few that are manual but only mild hybrids not plug ins

Ford puma
Hyundai Tucson
Ford Fiesta
Kia Stonic
Suzuki Ignis

https://www.evanshalshaw.com/blog/hybrid-cars-with-manual-transmission/

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But they are "mild hybrids", which as most would agree is just a sop to the enviromental angle. Anything that can run on purely electric at any time is auto only, however I am happy to be shown anything that isn't


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But they are "mild hybrids", which as most would agree is just a sop to the enviromental angle. Anything that can run on purely electric at any time is auto only, however I am happy to be shown anything that isn't

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Yes all phev and ev are automatic. Its the only way they work 

Having driven CVT since 2012 (along side a manual) and then the auto plus ev I got now .. I don't miss manual. Especially in traffic


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes all phev and ev are automatic. Its the only way they work

Having driven CVT since 2012 (along side a manual) and then the auto plus ev I got now .. I don't miss manual. Especially in traffic
		
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My van is DSG, my car an old school slush box which are lovely. The CVT which was on the wifes hybrid Yaris was horrible, and even she prefers the slush auto on the CX3 she has now.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My van is DSG, my car an old school slush box which are lovely. The CVT which was on the wifes hybrid Yaris was horrible, and even she prefers the slush auto on the CX3 she has now.
		
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My first cvt was on a 1.8 engine hybrid and it was good 

Second on the 1.5 petrol wasn't as good but still once you got up to speed was fine


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## road2ruin (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I find them decent enough when needed , like posted above if I'm on a 10 or 12 hour shift and the sockets available that's up to 50% charge whilst I'm not using the car

Even if you paid your mother in law for all the kw usage it would be cheaper than charging at road side
		
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Out of interest, are there any potential issues/watch outs with blowing up someone's electrics? Situation is that we're going to the IoW later on in the year and (assuming I have the car) it's an awkward place to charge. I won't need a full 'tank' and the AirBnB owner has said it's fine to charge from a socket if I cover the approximate additional costs. Do I need to be careful of anything or if I just stick the car on at 10amps will that be okay?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest, are there any potential issues/watch outs with blowing up someone's electrics? Situation is that we're going to the IoW later on in the year and (assuming I have the car) it's an awkward place to charge. I won't need a full 'tank' and the AirBnB owner has said it's fine to charge from a socket if I cover the approximate additional costs. Do I need to be careful of anything or if I just stick the car on at 10amps will that be okay?
		
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The most a 13a one can pull is 3kw an hour .. well 3.1 .. most sockets are 13a rated (check with @Fade and Die ) long as you don't overload the ring main should be fine 

10a is 2kw so even lower 

My lead I bought myself as didnt get a granny charger with car ... I got a 10m one that has variable output so I set at 10amp so avoid drawing too much 

The idea of them is you can charge off them if needed 

Tbh a lot of people run just on one .. charge up every night and use in day it covers most useage 

I have a 7kw charger as it allows me to make most of my charging and fit my charging in the window My energy company want


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest, are there any potential issues/watch outs with blowing up someone's electrics? Situation is that we're going to the IoW later on in the year and (assuming I have the car) it's an awkward place to charge. I won't need a full 'tank' and the AirBnB owner has said it's fine to charge from a socket if I cover the approximate additional costs. Do I need to be careful of anything or if I just stick the car on at 10amps will that be okay?
		
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As PJ says you are absolutely fine plugging a granny charger in on any 13A plug. They are designed to do just that. 
Not sure of the additional cost, depends on the leccy tariff. I will do a calc on my own set up when I have more time.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			As PJ says you are absolutely fine plugging a granny charger in on any 13A plug. They are designed to do just that.
Not sure of the additional cost, depends on the leccy tariff. I will do a calc on my own set up when I have more time.
		
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There is a decent home charger on Amazon £230 (you can limit the output charge inside it)

Then just bit of armoured cable .. MCB is it? Or basically whatever breaker needed then wire into mains 

As your qualified aren't you? You could save a bit and do for prob under £400 depending how far you want it away 

I'd fully recommend one with a tethered lead tho .. just for ease


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## Fade and Die (Jan 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There is a decent home charger on Amazon £230 (you can limit the output charge inside it)

Then just bit of armoured cable .. MCB is it? Or basically whatever breaker needed then wire into mains

As your qualified aren't you? You could save a bit and do for prob under £400 depending how far you want it away

I'd fully recommend one with a tethered lead tho .. just for ease
		
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I’m lucky that the cost of installing chargers is not an issue just the consumption of electric, so I will probably be switching suppliers later in the year. 
In the past I think you have said octopus have the best tariff for EVs?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m lucky that the cost of installing chargers is not an issue just the consumption of electric, so I will probably be switching suppliers later in the year.
In the past I think you have said octopus have the best tariff for EVs?
		
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They are indeed best for ev, well imo. Other ev tariffs are available

Gone up to 7.5p night 30p day ATM when joining . My deal ends this week but they fixed me at my old rate for another year .. I'm having solar and telsa battery installed to keep my bills low and reduce my grid reliance

Only issue with octupus ATM is u have to have the ev to get on the tariff ATM

Before I just went on the deal as was same day rate so just ran the dishwasher and tumble at night

The variable is suppose to rise to 30p Ish in April so their new fix is about going rate but they give u heavy discount for the 4 hour night window where you can get in 28kw worth of charge into the car cheap

As a side if you had a 62 kw battery (Kia niro) it has 58 usable I think so that's £17.40 at the expensive rate but if that gets you 250 miles or whatever what's petrol to go that far these days? 

Idea is tho charge little and often in the cheap hours .. reduce it down (and it's when they want you to as the grid can cope better)


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## DaveR (Jan 30, 2022)

I can get 700 miles of range in under 5 minutes 🙃


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## bobmac (Jan 30, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I can get 700 miles of range in under 5 minutes 🙃
		
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On your driveway? How much is that?


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## spongebob59 (Jan 30, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I can get 700 miles of range in under 5 minutes 🙃
		
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 Or about 40 miles in less than a minute 😉


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The battery pack is not the engine, it's where the energy is stored to run the motor and some say the newer batteries will outlast the car.
_''Under current estimates, most electric car batteries will *last somewhere between 10-20 years before they need to be replaced*.''_
https://blog.evbox.com/uk-en/ev-battery-longevity#:~:text=Under current estimates, most electric,lose charge capacity over time.
		
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It is to all intents, as it's your power generator. 

And current "estimates" are now being disproven by real world lifespan where they're starting to fail at 8 years, 20 years is cloud cuckoo land


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			It is to all intents, as it's your power generator.

And current "estimates" are now being disproven by real world lifespan where they're starting to fail at 8 years, 20 years is cloud cuckoo land
		
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Toyota are launching a full electric SUV where they guarantee the battery for 10 years with 90% of original charge 

Its not cloud cuckoo land , majority of cases will be this however there are cases where it won't be.. that's what makes the news.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 31, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Toyota are launching a full electric SUV where they guarantee the battery for 10 years with 90% of original charge

Its not cloud cuckoo land , majority of cases will be this however there are cases where it won't be.. that's what makes the news.
		
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I have a 10 year old diesel, 110k on the clock, which I've had for 8years, I expect a number of years from it yet until it gives up.

The fact all they'll guarantee is 10 years tells you all you need to know, and you'll pay far more for your EV + replacement battery (or selling a worthless second hand car) than I'll be doing long run.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I have a 10 year old diesel, 110k on the clock, which I've had for 8years, I expect a number of years from it yet until it gives up.

The fact all they'll guarantee is 10 years tells you all you need to know, and you'll pay far more for your EV + replacement battery (or selling a worthless second hand car) than I'll be doing long run.
		
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The fact they guarantee it just means their confident in their own product.

In 10 years the cost of replacement battieres is going to drop compared to now


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			It is to all intents, as it's your power generator.

And current "estimates" are now being disproven by real world lifespan where they're starting to fail at 8 years, 20 years is cloud cuckoo land
		
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So your petrol tank is your engine?

And batteries don't fail, they gradually lose their ability to hold a full charge over a number of years.
Admittedly the first batteries weren't brilliant but the newer batteries are lasting much longer.
And when battery technology takes the next step there will be even less reason to worry





Banchory Buddha said:



			The fact all they'll guarantee is 10 years tells you all you need to know, and you'll pay far more for your EV + replacement battery (or selling a worthless second hand car) than I'll be doing long run.
		
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What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?
So you have an EV that is 10 years old and can still charge to 90% of its original figure, you would regard that as worthless?

I wonder how many bhp your diesel has lost over the last 10 years.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jan 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Admittedly the first batteries weren't brilliant but the newer batteries are lasting much longer.
		
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Huh? based on what? They're new, they haven't had the chance to fail yet


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Huh? based on what? They're new, they haven't had the chance to fail yet
		
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I said 'newer' not new.
If a battery is 3-4 years old and still has 98% charge left, you can surmise that after 10 years, you'll still have around 95% left.

There are many many clever people around the world who do nothing but work on prolonging the life of batteries, but if you know better than them, give them a call and share your expertise with them. 

Did you forget about my question about how much BHP your diesel has lost? because according to you, if it's lost 10%, it makes your car worthless.
Not forgetting my other question...What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I said 'newer' not new.
If a battery is 3-4 years old and still has 98% charge left, you can surmise that after 10 years, you'll still have around 95% left.

There are many many clever people around the world who do nothing but work on prolonging the life of batteries, but if you know better than them, give them a call and share your expertise with them.

Did you forget about my question about how much BHP your diesel has lost? because according to you, if it's lost 10%, it makes your car worthless.
Not forgetting my other question...What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?
		
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diesel engines can and often do 400k miles or more and still can run ok. If batteries have a life of only 100 or even 150k, for example, before needing to be replaced, that is a major negative that can put people off and could see the car at 10 years old being worthless if a replacement battery is 10k+


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## GreiginFife (Jan 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I said 'newer' not new.
If a battery is 3-4 years old and still has 98% charge left, you can surmise that after 10 years, you'll still have around 95% left.

There are many many clever people around the world who do nothing but work on prolonging the life of batteries, but if you know better than them, give them a call and share your expertise with them.

*Did you forget about my question about how much BHP your diesel has lost*? because according to you, if it's lost 10%, it makes your car worthless.
Not forgetting my other question...What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?
		
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I get where you are coming from here Bob, but there is a flaw in this argument that loss of 10% BHP doesn't have the affect on the effective range of a car as much as battery does. The analogue would be a fuel tank that's shrunk 10% of the same time. 

Someone with a 150BHP engine that loses 15BHP over 9 or 10 years isn't going to notice much if any effect. Whereas a battery effectively losing 10% of it's capacity to _provide energy_ is going to be noticeable by way of the distance that can be covered before spending money to re-fuel. 

We are seeing improvements in batteries - without doubt, although based on my experience of an EV test drive the on Saturday, there's still a lot of "unaccountable" variance in the distribution and usage of that energy. I questioned the dealer on why a journey of no more than 50 miles wiped more than 130 miles off the range "it's just how they work" was pretty much the response. 

I'm still keeping my name on the i4 waiting list, but I have to admit now I'm more concerned about the battery (usage rather than life span) than I was before test driving.


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

I guess the battery issue is going to be more or less of an issue depending on how you are buying the car. I think the figures from a couple of years ago where that 90% of new car purchases were done via finance so for those the battery life is a non issue. In the near future it will be a factor for those who are buying used EV's, looking further into the future the batteries will improve, get smaller whilst having long ranges and probably a long life. There may well be options to have the batteries swapped out without it costing you 25% of the original value of the car!!


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## GreiginFife (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I guess the battery issue is going to be more or less of an issue depending on how you are buying the car. I think the figures from a couple of years ago where that 90% of new car purchases were done via finance so for those the battery life is a non issue. In the near future it will be a factor for those who are buying used EV's, looking further into the future the batteries will improve, get smaller whilst having long ranges and probably a long life. There may well be options to have the batteries swapped out without it costing you 25% of the original value of the car!!
		
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This is very much me, I seldom keep a car beyond 2 - 2.5 years so battery life is not an issue for me. Battery reliability and stability are far more important.


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## Imurg (Jan 31, 2022)

The problem I'm seeing here is the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand market..
If an EV costs 40k now, in 10 years it'll be worth about 10k maximum....
If the battery is guaranteed for 10 years and costs circa 10k to replace it means buying an EV of that age looks a massive gamble.
A 10 year old ICE may cost you a few hundred each year in repairs but it'll keep going into the 5th, 6th and 7th hand market as youngster's first cars.
By a 3rd hand EV for, say, 8k and within a year or 2 the battery starts to drop off.......the car is worthless unless they work out a way to refurb batteries cost effectively 
The newish used market will be ok...anything 10 years or older...forget it.
Where does that leave those who can't afford a 10k car..and who don't want to gamble on the battery lasting?
I appreciate battery tech is improving but they need get to the point where batteries do last longer than the car
Until then....?


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			This is very much me, I seldom keep a car beyond 2 - 2.5 years so battery life is not an issue for me. Battery reliability and stability are far more important.
		
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My worry about buying an EV at the moment is I am just not sure of the depreciation of it plus they are hideously expensive when compared to their ICE compatriots. I don't want to risk losing a load of cash by being an early(ish) adopter of EV's so mine is being financed and in 4 years time I'll see what the market looks like.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			My worry about buying an EV at the moment is I am just not sure of the depreciation of it plus they are hideously expensive when compared to their ICE compatriots. I don't want to risk losing a load of cash by being an early(ish) adopter of EV's so mine is being financed and in 4 years time I'll see what the market looks like.
		
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Seems that the i4 (which I am plumping for) is estimated to depreciate much in line with the equivalent M440i and M4 variants that they "shadow" (i4 40 S-Drive is M440 performance and i4 M50 is M4 material). 

However, the hideous expensive bit is where it takes a turn. i4 M50 specced as I have has a list price of £66,495 (Base is just under £64k). M4 Comp equivalent, £76k _before_ options... So the EV wins that particular fight.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I get where you are coming from here Bob, but there is a flaw in this argument that loss of 10% BHP doesn't have the affect on the effective range of a car as much as battery does. The analogue would be a fuel tank that's shrunk 10% of the same time.

Someone with a 150BHP engine that loses 15BHP over 9 or 10 years isn't going to notice much if any effect. Whereas a battery effectively losing 10% of it's capacity to _provide energy_ is going to be noticeable by way of the distance that can be covered before spending money to re-fuel.

We are seeing improvements in batteries - without doubt, although based on my experience of an EV test drive the on Saturday, there's still a lot of "unaccountable" variance in the distribution and usage of that energy. I questioned the dealer on why a journey of no more than 50 miles wiped more than 130 miles off the range "it's just how they work" was pretty much the response.

I'm still keeping my name on the i4 waiting list, but I have to admit now I'm more concerned about the battery (usage rather than life span) than I was before test driving.
		
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I wouldn't worry too much tbh . Did it have % gauge? That's what matters really

For example I had 52% this morning so I didn't bother charging as above 50% I can pre condition so that's all I wanted today .. I know 50% is more than enough for work and back 

Now when I got in the car it said 48 miles (45 mile round trip) experience told me what a load of tosh 

True enough my 22 mile drive to work it came off saying 32 miles left lol and 34% battery 

Then got home 23% battery (23 miles) and 23 miles left .. which then dropped to 18 when it got colder out 

But I used less than 30% battery in the cold winter to do 45 miles .. so that's winter range of 150.. (summer 200)

More than happy with that 

@road2ruin @Fade and Die octopus btw if you do switch long term and know somebody on it they can give you a link so you get £50 each on your account .. obviously I'd gladly share mine lol but if you know someone with it nudge them and get a free £50 each 👍


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The problem I'm seeing here is the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand market..
If an EV costs 40k now, in 10 years it'll be worth about 10k maximum....
If the battery is guaranteed for 10 years and costs circa 10k to replace it means buying an EV of that age looks a massive gamble.
A 10 year old ICE may cost you a few hundred each year in repairs but it'll keep going into the 5th, 6th and 7th hand market as youngster's first cars.
By a 3rd hand EV for, say, 8k and within a year or 2 the battery starts to drop off.......the car is worthless unless they work out a way to refurb batteries cost effectively
The newish used market will be ok...anything 10 years or older...forget it.
Where does that leave those who can't afford a 10k car..and who don't want to gamble on the battery lasting?
I appreciate battery tech is improving but they need get to the point where batteries do last longer than the car
Until then....?
		
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I really think this is will start to resolve by then .. because by 2030 all the last petrol and diesel cars are sold .. so you have what until 2045 before they become the 15 year old car second hand market?

I really think in 10 years these worries will be solved and it will become a real noneissue


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@road2ruin @Fade and Die octopus btw if you do switch long term and know somebody on it they can give you a link so you get £50 each on your account .. obviously I'd gladly share mine lol but if you know someone with it nudge them and get a free £50 each 👍
		
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Cheers, I will bear that in mind once I finally get delivery although it looks like Bulb (assuming they're still going) have an EV tariff now which is 5.85p/kWh between 2am-6am so that might well be worth a look as I'm already with them.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Cheers, I will bear that in mind once I finally get delivery although it looks like Bulb (assuming they're still going) have an EV tariff now which is 5.85p/kWh between 2am-6am so that might well be worth a look as I'm already with them.
		
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Oh defo that is a brilliant rate .. I'm sticking with octopus as they have a telsa tariff (you can get it if your either a telsa owner or have powerwall plus solar , which is on order) they take over your powerwall and you get a flat 11p for all the electric they take off you and you buy all your electric for 11p.. which is just ridiculous


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## GreiginFife (Jan 31, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I wouldn't worry too much tbh . Did it have % gauge? That's what matters really

For example I had 52% this morning so I didn't bother charging as above 50% I can pre condition so that's all I wanted today .. I know 50% is more than enough for work and back

Now when I got in the car it said 48 miles (45 mile round trip) experience told me what a load of tosh

True enough my 22 mile drive to work it came off saying 32 miles left lol and 34% battery

Then got home 23% battery (23 miles) and 23 miles left .. which then dropped to 18 when it got colder out

But I used less than 30% battery in the cold winter to do 45 miles .. so that's winter range of 150.. (summer 200)

More than happy with that

@road2ruin @Fade and Die octopus btw if you do switch long term and know somebody on it they can give you a link so you get £50 each on your account .. obviously I'd gladly share mine lol but if you know someone with it nudge them and get a free £50 each 👍
		
Click to expand...

No, it has range in miles, not %. But even then if it said 50% and I don't know what that equates to and I have no idea if it's going to actually achieve/provide it then it's going to make me edgy. 130 miles is c.45% of it's c.295 mile starting point over a distance that's actually only 15% of the indicated capability and no one seemed to be able to pin-point why that was. Of course, I was informed that other people had had better (and some worse) results... Not sure why they thought anecdotes on proving the variability would appease my twanging banjo...


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## pauljames87 (Jan 31, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			No, it has range in miles, not %. But even then if it said 50% and I don't know what that equates to and I have no idea if it's going to actually achieve/provide it then it's going to make me edgy. 130 miles is c.45% of it's c.295 mile starting point over a distance that's actually only 15% of the indicated capability and no one seemed to be able to pin-point why that was. Of course, I was informed that other people had had better (and some worse) results... Not sure why they thought anecdotes on proving the variability would appease my twanging banjo...
		
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There might be a % guage hidden in the settings .. I think my car is only one without 

However your app should give you a lot of information

I know for example I got 4.7 miles per kw on the way home today (45kw battery) that's 211 miles if always at that rate 

I do believe after a few days you will get the hang of it and get used to it 

Takes its time to learn your driving style 

They guess o Meter is crap 

But then a car drops in real time but has more range to work with so the drop off is less noticeable .. 

My car used to do 15m changes in range .. it was stupid now since an update it does in 2 miles I think 

The software can change and sort out issues which is good 

They still perfecting the tech for sure


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			diesel engines can and often do 400k miles or more and still can run ok. *If batteries have a life of only 100 or even 150k, for example, before needing to be replaced*, that is a major negative that can put people off and could see the car at 10 years old being worthless if a replacement battery is 10k+
		
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The batteries don't just suddenly conk out and leave you stranded on the hard shoulder so they won't be worthless.
The older cars will be worth less than newer cars but isn't that the case with all cars?
The original Nissan Leaf for example has a battery health gauge on the dashboard. 12 bars is full range, 10 not so good etc but you use that to negotiate your price. And even if you do want another battery you can swap for a second hand 40kw for around £4k.
I remember Murph telling an exhaust system for his Merc was £5,500.


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## Banchory Buddha (Feb 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The batteries don't just suddenly conk out and leave you stranded on the hard shoulder so they won't be worthless.
The older cars will be worth less than newer cars but isn't that the case with all cars?
The original Nissan Leaf for example has a battery health gauge on the dashboard. 12 bars is full range, 10 not so good etc but you use that to negotiate your price. And even if you do want another battery you can swap for a second hand 40kw for around £4k.
*I remember Murph telling an exhaust system for his Merc was £5,500.*

Click to expand...

...and one for a Picanto will be £50, ridiculous comparison


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## BiMGuy (Feb 1, 2022)

Apologies for a link to The Scum

Some ICEs are expensive.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...m-bill-range-rover-service-engine-seized/amp/


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## PNWokingham (Feb 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The batteries don't just suddenly conk out and leave you stranded on the hard shoulder so they won't be worthless.
The older cars will be worth less than newer cars but isn't that the case with all cars?
The original Nissan Leaf for example has a battery health gauge on the dashboard. 12 bars is full range, 10 not so good etc but you use that to negotiate your price. And even if you do want another battery you can swap for a second hand 40kw for around £4k.
I remember Murph telling an exhaust system for his Merc was £5,500.
		
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I don't think we have too much reliable data on how batteries function at 10 years or so. Mobile phone batteries lose a lot more than 10% performance in 2 or 3 years so predicting a car range 10 years and 150k later is not encouraging. The comparisons to petrol or diesal cars on this issue is not really relevant. Sure you can spend 3 to 5k on the best exhaust going on a 100k AMG but that is not a stock part and is not needed - it is an upgrade not a replacement. You replace bits on cars all the time but they are generally things in the hundreds not the thousands or even 10 or 15k that decent batteries may cost. There is a thriving market in  10 to 15 year old cars - as that is the target market and budget for many people who want to spend under 5k or even nearer 1 or 2k. I cannot see how this market is well served from electric cars in 10 or 15 years time if the huge cost of the battery issue is way more than the car is worth. If a 15y old golf turbo diesel needs a new turbo that is still a 3 figure job and will give a new lease of life to a tired car and make it fit for several more years. The same needs to be a reality for electric cars and that does not look to be the case. In that context, I see a lot of electric cars, especially the earlier models being on the scrap help and an increasingly limit supply of petrol and diesel cars making a very strong market all through the 2030s. Maybe the 2040s will be a different story as the much better battery performance of new electric cars over the later part of this decade (and hopefully much lower battery costs) will change the picture


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## DanFST (Feb 1, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Apologies for a link to The Scum

Some ICEs are expensive.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...m-bill-range-rover-service-engine-seized/amp/

Click to expand...


As someone that successfully took a garage to court, this makes absolutely 0 sense.


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2022)

Fortunately, only the sale of NEW ice cars will be stopped in 2030 meaning those wanting to continue buying £1-2k ICE cars can do so. But that means a new EV today will be 8 years old by then and all the research I've done indicates that battery technology will continue to improve at the previous rate. Don't forget, 12 years ago EVs in the UK didn't exist, you couldn't buy one so we have come a long way in that time.
I've never said EVs are for everyone yet and it will take years, maybe decades, but I'm looking forwards to the day when I can charge my EV with renewable energy for very little money and improve the quality of the air we breathe. 
Being able to sneak up on cyclists will just be a bonus


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## Bdill93 (Feb 1, 2022)

My best friend works in the electrical industry as a buyer. A guy he used to work with who now works for a market leading car company that in 2 years time, battery technology is changing forever. They are just waiting for production to catch up before producing for the mass market.

I think it'll take 20 years at a minimum to phase out petrol and diesel cars for the masses. When I really look around now, its not often you see a pre-2000 car on the road as a day to day runner for families. I rarely see my first car around anymore (53 plate Renault Clio - the one with the bum!)

I will be going electric next I imagine! 3 years till then though!


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## Robster59 (Feb 1, 2022)

larmen said:



			There are a couple of people here where I would say a plug in hybrid would be their best choice? Are these hybrids still ‘future proof’ or are they outdated by the acceleration of EVs already?
		
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I have a PHEV.  A Skoda Superb iV.  I've used it on long runs (Glasgow to Surrey) and for towing a caravan.  At the moment, as I haven't been able to do much business travel, I have hardly bought any fuel for it.  I charge it up at home every night and run it on electric during the day.  
On the long runs, when running in auto-hybrid mode, I tend to get about 50+mpg all around.  A little less than my 2.0 Turbo Diesel but not as bad as I thought.  
It's a 1.4 turbo petrol, I get circa 30 miles only on all electric mode and it can take 5-6 hours to charge overnight.  
My bigger issue is finding somewhere to charge when I am away.  Because of its slow charge, I cannot do a quick stop and top-up.  And it seems that wherever I have stopped overnight, there haven't been any charging points.  So when I went to see my kids in Surrey between Christmas and New Year, I couldn't find anywhere nearby to top up the batteries.  
So I finished up doing about 1000 miles with no recharge and all on petrol.  
Mine is a company car, there were no pure electric on the list, so the hybrid was the no-brainer on company car tax saving.  
I still like the car, and it does me perfectly well for now.


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## Banchory Buddha (Feb 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			My best friend works in the electrical industry as a buyer. A guy he used to work with who now works for a market leading car company that in 2 years time, battery technology is changing forever. They are just waiting for production to catch up before producing for the mass market.

I think it'll take 20 years at a minimum to phase out petrol and diesel cars for the masses. When I really look around now, its not often you see a pre-2000 car on the road as a day to day runner for families. I rarely see my first car around anymore (53 plate Renault Clio - the one with the bum!)

I will be going electric next I imagine! 3 years till then though!
		
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Very interesting post Bdill 

I don't doubt, as bobmac alludes to, that things will improve, they have to, the current battery range and life is unacceptable for many, once those hurdles are overcome things will change. It won't solve the issue of people who live in flats or terraces of course, but it's a start.

If they really could overcome all three issues, plus cost then, I'd be in, purely on style. The Kia EV6 for eg is a stunning motor, and it's not alone. Torn from the restrictions of a petrol/diesel engine and necessary accouterments, you can see designers starting to take the reigns off.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 1, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			My best friend works in the electrical industry as a buyer. A guy he used to work with who now works for a market leading car company that in 2 years time, battery technology is changing forever. They are just waiting for production to catch up before producing for the mass market.

I think it'll take 20 years at a minimum to phase out petrol and diesel cars for the masses. When I really look around now, its not often you see a pre-2000 car on the road as a day to day runner for families. I rarely see my first car around anymore (53 plate Renault Clio - the one with the bum!)

I will be going electric next I imagine! 3 years till then though!
		
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Im really hoping this 2 years is realistic .. my lease is up in 3


Banchory Buddha said:



			Very interesting post Bdill 

I don't doubt, as bobmac alludes to, that things will improve, they have to, the current battery range and life is unacceptable for many, once those hurdles are overcome things will change. It won't solve the issue of people who live in flats or terraces of course, but it's a start.

If they really could overcome all three issues, plus cost then, I'd be in, purely on style. The Kia EV6 for eg is a stunning motor, and it's not alone. Torn from the restrictions of a petrol/diesel engine and necessary accouterments, you can see designers starting to take the reigns off.
		
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these batteries will be a game changer and will semi solve the issue for those in flats etc because whilst they wont be able to charge at home there will be 150KW chargers at stations like the Shell refill stations they have been waiting.. / gridserve charge points like the one in braintree

the charge speed will increase and further on the charge so it will become a once a week top up like petrol  going to a station .. obviously the home option will be there for those who have that option which will reduce the demand for the chargers on route freeing them up more


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## Banchory Buddha (Feb 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			these batteries will be a game changer and will semi solve the issue for those in flats etc because whilst they wont be able to charge at home there will be 150KW chargers at stations like the Shell refill stations they have been waiting.. / gridserve charge points like the one in braintree

the charge speed will increase and further on the charge so it will become a once a week top up like petrol  going to a station .. obviously the home option will be there for those who have that option which will reduce the demand for the chargers on route freeing them up more
		
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I hope so Paul, I'm a sceptic at the moment not due to being anti-green, just the points I keep repeating.

I'm actually just running the current car into the ground, the VW engine (Skoda) goes forever if looked after, no reason I can't be running it in 2030, which is a monumentally long time in development of the EV, but if the problems are still there, it'll be a new petrol engine as I nearly hit retirement and that'll be me till I keel over


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			It won't solve the issue of people who live in flats or terraces of course, but it's a start.
		
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I believe the term is called grazing.
You don't go to a garage and chuck in 10 gallons, you go to Tesco and get 50 miles of range (free), then maybe get another 30 miles from Lidl. Or you could fill up at a multi story car park while you spend the day in town, or at the swimming pool, or the curry house, or the golf club, or the office, or wherever you park for half an hour or more. The idea is you'll be charging while you do other stuff.
Yes, the chargers aren't all there yet because there was no demand for them (chicken and the egg) but they are popping up everywhere.
8 years ago, the only EVs available were the Leaf and the Zoe with a range of about 80 miles. Today many cars exceed 250 miles of range. What will we have in 8 years time?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I believe the term is called grazing.
You don't go to a garage and chuck in 10 gallons, you go to Tesco and get 50 miles of range (free), then maybe get another 30 miles from Lidl. Or you could fill up at a multi story car park while you spend the day in town, or at the swimming pool, or the curry house, or the golf club, or the office, or wherever you park for half an hour or more. The idea is you'll be charging while you do other stuff.
Yes, the chargers aren't all there yet because there was no demand for them (chicken and the egg) but they are popping up everywhere.
8 years ago, the only EVs available were the Leaf and the Zoe with a range of about 80 miles. Today many cars exceed 250 miles of range. What will we have in 8 years time?
		
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I would avoid saying its "free" because I can see it any day being changed to charged a flat rate with demand rising

without getting political lets keep it economical it is a true shame that the rules for all car parks to have to have EV chargers has been scrapped and replaced with only new or refurb car parks have to have them

seems like with one hand we are closing the door on petrol car supply but with the other we are throttling the take off of EV to save a bit of cash short term


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## Banchory Buddha (Feb 1, 2022)

bobmac said:



			8 years ago, the only EVs available were the Leaf and the Zoe with a range of about 80 miles. Today many cars exceed 250 miles of range. What will we have in 8 years time?
		
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I was at a local Community Council meeting a couple years back where they were discussing what should be included in the local development plan. One suggestion from a Local Councilor who as at the meeting (ie the elected sort, not the busy body community councillor sort) was a requirement that all new homes in the area must come with an EV charge point. Cue much laughter and snorting, not a one of them under 70 years old. Suggestion rejected without a seconds discussion, "that's decades away"

In the mid-90s most folks didn't have a computer, now nearly everyone carries one in their pocket, connected to anywhere in the world. Change is rapid, I absolutely grant you that


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## Fade and Die (Feb 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I would avoid saying its "free" because I can see it any day being changed to charged a flat rate with demand rising

without getting political lets keep it economical it is a true shame that the rules for all car parks to have to have EV chargers has been scrapped and replaced with only new or refurb car parks have to have them

seems like with one hand we are closing the door on petrol car supply but with the other we are throttling the take off of EV to save a bit of cash short term
		
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Sat in the Lidl car park on Sunday afternoon waiting for the wife, I saw a guy parking his Skoda Enyaq in one of the two chargers they have in their. He got out the car and put it on charge, then he got into the Kia niro that was plugged into the other charger! as he pulled away i saw in the back window one of those private hire badges, looked again in the back of the Skoda and it also had one. Heard they are doing this at the sports centre too.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 1, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Sat in the Lidl car park on Sunday afternoon waiting for the wife, I saw a guy parking his Skoda Enyaq in one of the two chargers they have in their. He got out the car and put it on charge, then he got into the Kia niro that was plugged into the other charger! as he pulled away i saw in the back window one of those private hire badges, looked again in the back of the Skoda and it also had one. Heard they are doing this at the sports centre too.
		
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sport centre is having a few issues atm.. I know out of the 10 chargers only 4 are working I believe (double checked this is correct by the app right now) , however I do like you can see in real time when in use etc

the podpoints at lidl are paid for tho 26p kw 

stupid thing is thats all 3 types of the lead attached .. so why would you use the slower Type 2 .. smash it on the CCS 50kw .. id be full and could pop to my mums for a tea lol

think charging for the units is the best way.. free just makes it easy to abuse.. id say a flat 30p seems fair as its cheaper than petrol but also its about what you pay for a day rate at home now days (post april) so people who dont need it will just charge at home.. people who need it arent paying more than others


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## Imurg (Feb 1, 2022)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I was at a local Community Council meeting a couple years back where they were discussing what should be included in the local development plan. One suggestion from a Local Councilor who as at the meeting (ie the elected sort, not the busy body community councillor sort) was a requirement that all new homes in the area must come with an EV charge point. Cue much laughter and snorting, not a one of them under 70 years old. Suggestion rejected without a seconds discussion, "that's decades away"

In the mid-90s most folks didn't have a computer, now nearly everyone carries one in their pocket, connected to anywhere in the world. Change is rapid, I absolutely grant you that
		
Click to expand...

Change CAN be rapid...but not always...


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## Bdill93 (Feb 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Im really hoping this 2 years is realistic .. my lease is up in 2


these batteries will be a game changer and will semi solve the issue for those in flats etc because whilst they wont be able to charge at home there will be 150KW chargers at stations like the Shell refill stations they have been waiting.. / gridserve charge points like the one in braintree

the charge speed will increase and further on the charge so it will become a once a week top up like petrol  going to a station .. obviously the home option will be there for those who have that option which will reduce the demand for the chargers on route freeing them up more
		
Click to expand...




Banchory Buddha said:



			Very interesting post Bdill 

I don't doubt, as bobmac alludes to, that things will improve, they have to, the current battery range and life is unacceptable for many, once those hurdles are overcome things will change. It won't solve the issue of people who live in flats or terraces of course, but it's a start.

If they really could overcome all three issues, plus cost then, I'd be in, purely on style. The Kia EV6 for eg is a stunning motor, and it's not alone. Torn from the restrictions of a petrol/diesel engine and necessary accouterments, you can see designers starting to take the reigns off.
		
Click to expand...

The way he talks about it, it really is a matter of when and not if. Something to do with autocharging batteries - sounds a bit nuts if you ask me.


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sticking with octopus as they have a *telsa* tariff (you can get it if your either a *telsa* owner or have powerwall plus solar , which is on order)
		
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Another cheap Chinese knock off?


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## PNWokingham (Feb 2, 2022)




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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

A few of the guys in my company went with Tesla Model 3 long range vehicles. Tax was the main thought on this. They ALL HATE them. range drops like a stone in winter. Journey planning is nuts for some who need 200 miles in a day which is not unusual. I do around 30k in my vehicles a year still and will never go for a fully electric becuase its just not good enough


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			A few of the guys in my company went with Tesla Model 3 long range vehicles. Tax was the main thought on this. They ALL HATE them. range drops like a stone in winter. Journey planning is nuts for some who need 200 miles in a day which is not unusual. I do around 30k in my vehicles a year still and will never go for a fully electric becuase its just not good enough
		
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With the greatest respect to your colleagues they should have done their research before going down the EV route. It should come as no surprise that the advertised range doesn't match the real world reality as it never done with ICE cars either and anyone whose had even the quickest bit of research knows that cold is a killer to batteries. I don't think EV's are suitable for anyone doing 200 odd miles a day at the moment however the vast majority of drivers potter around and probably do less than 200 miles a week and for them an EV is perfect. In time EV batteries will rival the range and the 'filling' speed of ICE cars but that is a few years off.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			I do around 30k in my vehicles a year still and will never go for a fully electric becuase its just not good enough
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but think of all those rounds you can get in while it's charging.


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			With the greatest respect to your colleagues they should have done their research before going down the EV route. It should come as no surprise that the advertised range doesn't match the real world reality as it never done with ICE cars either and anyone whose had even the quickest bit of research knows that cold is a killer to batteries. I don't think EV's are suitable for anyone doing 200 odd miles a day at the moment however the vast majority of drivers potter around and probably do less than 200 miles a week and for them an EV is perfect. In time EV batteries will rival the range and the 'filling' speed of ICE cars but that is a few years off.
		
Click to expand...

Yup. Electric cars are rubbish at the moment. Their fault for choosing them when they do these sorts of miles.


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			A few of the guys in my company went with Tesla Model 3 long range vehicles. Tax was the main thought on this. They ALL HATE them. range drops like a stone in winter. Journey planning is nuts for some who need 200 miles in a day which is not unusual. I do around 30k in my vehicles a year still and will never go for a fully electric becuase its just not good enough
		
Click to expand...

Did you have a drive in one?
Maybe a long range model 3 might have been more up their street. (pun intended )


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2022)




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## pauljames87 (Feb 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 40921

Click to expand...

Well that is massively incorrect on so many levels but don't let the facts get in the way of a good meme


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Did you have a drive in one?
Maybe a long range model 3 might have been more up their street. (pun intended )
		
Click to expand...

Nope. Knew it was a bag of spanners and not fit for purpose


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## pauljames87 (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Nope. Knew it was a bag of spanners and not fit for purpose
		
Click to expand...

360 mile range even in winter that would be 250 minimum ..

Well within the 200 a day needed 

Without stops ofc .

You have to test things to broaden your horizons


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			360 mile range even in winter that would be 250 minimum ..

Well within the 200 a day needed

Without stops ofc .

You have to test things to broaden your horizons
		
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I live in Lincolnshire. I have people I see from Inverness to Southampton. 250 miles is not enough. 

Currently all electric cars are not fit for purpose


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Currently all electric cars are not fit for purpose
		
Click to expand...

That's just not correct though, they are fit for the vast majority of vehicle owners that do not drive for a living. Any EV with a range of 200 miles will be practical for most people and range will only be a factor in the yearly trip to Cornwall for example that just takes a bit more planning. For almost every other journey it's simply not a consideration. I would go as far to say that even if you live in a flat or property that you cannot have a home charger and say that whilst it's still not as convenient you can easily take yourself off to a fast charger once a week or so and probably still cope very well with having an EV.


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			That's just not correct though, they are fit for the vast majority of vehicle owners that do not drive for a living. Any EV with a range of 200 miles will be practical for most people and range will only be a factor in the yearly trip to Cornwall for example that just takes a bit more planning. For almost every other journey it's simply not a consideration. I would go as far to say that even if you live in a flat or property that you cannot have a home charger and say that whilst it's still not as convenient you can easily take yourself off to a fast charger once a week or so and probably still cope very well with having an EV.
		
Click to expand...

Purely for my purpose which was implied by my response


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

30,000 miles a year allowing for 4 weeks holiday a year and working 5 days a week works out at 125 miles per day, well within the Teslas range.


Captainron said:



			I live in Lincolnshire. I have people I see from Inverness to Southampton. 250 miles is not enough.

*Currently all electric cars are not fit for purpose*

Click to expand...

For someone doing 30,000 a year (125 miles per day) you might be right but for those who do 5,000 a year, they're perfect.

I'd guess the average journeys speed in Britain is around 50mph allowing for roadworks, traffic jams and accidents. That means the Tesla has a 5hour range. That's long enough for me. 
But if the range has gone from 80 miles to 320 miles in 10 years, you can imagine where we'll be in 5 years time. Getting on 450-500 miles would be my guess.
Hang on to your ICE car for a bit longer Ron but keep your eyes and ears open.


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## Banchory Buddha (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			30,000 miles a year allowing for 4 weeks holiday a year and working 5 days a week works out at 125 miles per day, well within the Teslas range.


For someone doing 30,000 a year (125 miles per day) you might be right but for those who do 5,000 a year, they're perfect.

I'd guess the average journeys speed in Britain is around 50mph allowing for roadworks, traffic jams and accidents. That means the Tesla has a 5hour range. That's long enough for me.
But if the range has gone from 80 miles to 320 miles in 10 years, you can imagine where we'll be in 5 years time. *Getting on 450-500 miles would be my guess*.
Hang on to your ICE car for a bit longer Ron but keep your eyes and ears open.
		
Click to expand...

They get to that stage and then I start to take notice for sure. 

Then far from charging being an issue, you can charge at home and not go near a "petrol" station, and charging becomes another plus of EV ownership


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			30,000 miles a year allowing for 4 weeks holiday a year and working 5 days a week works out at 125 miles per day, well within the Teslas range.


For someone doing 30,000 a year (125 miles per day) you might be right but for those who do 5,000 a year, they're perfect.

I'd guess the average journeys speed in Britain is around 50mph allowing for roadworks, traffic jams and accidents. That means the Tesla has a 5hour range. That's long enough for me.
But if the range has gone from 80 miles to 320 miles in 10 years, you can imagine where we'll be in 5 years time. Getting on 450-500 miles would be my guess.
Hang on to your ICE car for a bit longer Ron but keep your eyes and ears open.
		
Click to expand...

When they can do 500 miles a go and charge in 10 minutes then yip


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			When they can do 500 miles a go and charge in 10 minutes then yip
		
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I guess you'd want them to cost under £20,000 too? 

Realistically, how often do you *have* to drive 500 miles without stopping? That's your house to Inverness and 50 miles back, or Southampton and back with 150 miles to spare.


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I guess you'd want them to cost under £20,000 too? 

Realistically, how often do you *have* to drive 500 miles without stopping? That's your house to Inverness and 50 miles back, or Southampton and back with 150 miles to spare.
		
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Bob. I stop regularly like most drivers do. I am not prepared to stop for long periods to wait for the battery to charge enough to hop up and down the land and deal with the vagaries of batteries. 

I have a hybrid which states 32 miles on a full charge. It gets 21 in reality which is super disappoiting. I don't bother charging it any more unless I park at the office in MK and a charge point is free (often not the case with the Teslas being there) Its all a load of tosh and a tax break in relaity.

I am happy to fill up with Petrol at a garage, grab a coffee and get on with my journey KNOWING I will get 450 miles minimum from the engine. Electric is great if you are a potterer and only stay local. For my real purposes they are a big pile of crud!

I am not willing or prepared to change my habits to get an electric car and I just don't care how anyone else feels about that.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Bob. I stop regularly like most drivers do. I am not prepared to stop for long periods to wait for the battery to charge enough to hop up and down the land and deal with the vagaries of batteries.

I have a hybrid which states 32 miles on a full charge. It gets 21 in reality which is super disappoiting. I don't bother charging it any more unless I park at the office in MK and a charge point is free (often not the case with the Teslas being there) Its all a load of tosh and a tax break in relaity.

I am happy to fill up with Petrol at a garage, grab a coffee and get on with my journey KNOWING I will get 450 miles minimum from the engine. Electric is great if you are a potterer and only stay local. For my real purposes they are a big pile of crud!

I am not willing or prepared to change my habits to get an electric car and I just don't care how anyone else feels about that.
		
Click to expand...

In 10/15 years time, you wont have much choice if you drive a company car. But thats a problem for then and not now! Battery tech will improve - doesnt have much choice.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 2, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Purely for my purpose which was implied by my response
		
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That's the same as everything tho isn't it

You wouldn't buy yourself (or get on company scheme) a Toyota Aygo with a small tank where you would be cramped into and have to stop more 

Just like ATM for me an ashp is pointless..the tech isn't good enough for My needs so I'll stick with my 3 year old boiler and look to replace when the tech improves and the boiler hits 10-15 years


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## adam6177 (Feb 4, 2022)

Here we go... And was what I'd been saying from the start of the electric revolution

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

I wonder if this will have any effect on our driving habits in the future.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2022)

Approximately 2% of cars on the UK roads are EV or hybrid


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Approximately 2% of cars on the UK roads are EV or hybrid
		
Click to expand...

In 2019 /20 £28b was raised in fuel duty. That is £560m down based on the 2% (clearly that is a very approximate figure as we have no idea of the mileage they are doing, fuel that would have been consumed etc.)

Either way, it shows a/ a loss of income, b/ the way things are moving. The govt has to be prepared to plug the gap somehow and the thought process has to begin sooner rather than later.


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## greenone (Feb 4, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Here we go... And was what I'd been saying from the start of the electric revolution

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

I wonder if this will have any effect on our driving habits in the future.
		
Click to expand...

It wont for me, living in the sticks there's no options other than a car if I want to carry more than I can fit in a rucksack on my bike.


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2022)

greenone said:



			It wont for me, living in the sticks there's no options other than a car if I want to carry more than I can fit in a rucksack on my bike.
		
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And that's where the pay per mile system becomes harder to get right
Why should people like you be penalised for where you live..?
A trip to Tesco, for example, could cost someone living in the sticks 5,10 or 20 times more than someone who lives a couple of miles from the shop.
It's a very difficult balancing act. Some drive for a living...charging them extra to do their job doesn't seem fair..
That, for me, is why pay per mile is either a non-starter or will punish certain sectors.


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## greenone (Feb 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And that's where the pay per mile system becomes harder to get right
Why should people like you be penalised for where you live..?
A trip to Tesco, for example, could cost someone living in the sticks 5,10 or 20 times more than someone who lives a couple of miles from the shop.
It's a very difficult balancing act. Some drive for a living...charging them extra to do their job doesn't seem fair..
That, for me, is why pay per mile is either a non-starter or will punish certain sectors.
		
Click to expand...

It's coming they have to fill the hole somehow. If you live in the sticks you already pay more through fuel duty. The price you pay should reflect where you live. They have the data through postcodes. Live in an area where you have a choice pay more, live in an area where you don't pay less per mile. Nearest shop to me is a supermarket, it's a 17 mile round trip.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			And that's where the pay per mile system becomes harder to get right
Why should people like you be penalised for where you live..?
A trip to Tesco, for example, could cost someone living in the sticks 5,10 or 20 times more than someone who lives a couple of miles from the shop.
It's a very difficult balancing act. Some drive for a living...charging them extra to do their job doesn't seem fair..
That, for me, is why pay per mile is either a non-starter or will punish certain sectors.
		
Click to expand...

Its leveling up in real terms ..rather than what we need and people want it's right it's brings the cost of living of the north in line with the south .. housing costs less but ur tax goes up for driving to the shops


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2022)

greenone said:



			It's coming they have to fill the hole somehow. If you live in the sticks you already pay more through fuel duty. The price you pay should reflect where you live. They have the data through postcodes. Live in an area where you have a choice pay more, live in an area where you don't pay less per mile. Neaest shop to me is a supermarket, it's a 17 mile round trip.
		
Click to expand...

Works for me  - I'm a mile from Tesco's....


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## GreiginFife (Feb 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Its leveling up in real terms ..rather than what we need and people want it's right it's brings the cost of living of the north in line with the south .. housing costs less but ur tax goes up for driving to the shops
		
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Are wages in the SE of England on parity with the rest of the country? 

My current client pays a "standard" day rate and a "London" rate (that's available to anyone living within 20 miles of London itself) which is around £100 per day extra.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 4, 2022)

Easiest way is put the tax on all leccy up. That and make everyone pay RFL regardless of fuel type.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Easiest way is put the tax on all leccy up. That and make everyone pay RFL regardless of fuel type.
		
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Another way to fill the gap would be to stop giving millions in subsidies to the fossil fuel industries, the highest in the EU 

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...sil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission


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## rosecott (Feb 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Another way to fill the gap would be to stop giving millions in subsidies to the fossil fuel industries, the highest in the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...sil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

Click to expand...

Please note - this article is more than 3 years old.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Please note - this article is more than 3 years old.
		
Click to expand...

This is 3 months old.

_''Britain currently supports the fossil fuel industry through tax breaks and subsidies for exploration and research and development to the tune of £10 billion a year, according to latest figures from the OECD.''_
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-trade-pact-fossil-fuel-subsidies-tariffs-green-goods/


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## greenone (Feb 4, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Please note - this article is more than 3 years old.
		
Click to expand...

It may be 3 years old but little if anything has changed.


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## cliveb (Feb 4, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Here we go... And was what I'd been saying from the start of the electric revolution

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

Click to expand...

What irks me is that the powers that be seem to think they need to introduce yet another piece of complex technology to deal with the problem: monitoring the miles travelled by vehicles in order to tax them accordingly.

What's wrong with using the technology that already exists in EVs: measure how much electricity has been put into the batteries?
In the meantime, keep fuel duty for ICE cars.

I will hazard a guess what the hidden agenda is: introduce road usage pricing under the guise of replacing the lost fuel duty, but make ICE cars also pay it even though the fuel duty will stay.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 4, 2022)

I'm not going to get into the argument again but taxation based on distance instead of energy consumption is dumb.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Are wages in the SE of England on parity with the rest of the country?

My current client pays a "standard" day rate and a "London" rate (that's available to anyone living within 20 miles of London itself) which is around £100 per day extra.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry my flippant remark wasnt a dig at the north it was a dig at the whole way leveling up will be handled

london rate is higher but then housing is vastly higher (rightly or wrongly not saying on those lines)

but the cost of living outside of housing will increase in the north but wages will not reflect so they will "level up" but still have the divide .


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I'm not going to get into the argument again but taxation based on distance instead of energy consumption is dumb.
		
Click to expand...

I remember what you said before, and I do agree with what you raised.. is I use 20kw for example to drive 22 miles .. but someone else used 20kw to drive 300 miles.. I should be charged the same . (even though that extreme wont happen but it does make fairer)


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## PIng (Feb 4, 2022)

Just bought an MG5 yesterday, to replace my Hyundai Ioniq lease car. Hopefully it will arrive before the Ioniq goes back. Love the Ioniq, but changing circumstances mean I need a bigger boot.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 4, 2022)

PIng said:



			Just bought an MG5 yesterday, to replace my Hyundai Ioniq lease car. Hopefully it will arrive before the Ioniq goes back. Love the Ioniq, but changing circumstances mean I need a bigger boot.
		
Click to expand...

Has it got precondition now? That's only thing that's putting me off it


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## PIng (Feb 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Has it got precondition now? That's only thing that's putting me off it
		
Click to expand...

Don't think so, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490706932478447618


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## pauljames87 (Feb 8, 2022)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490706932478447618

Click to expand...

Are electric cars hailed as the saviour of the planet alone?

Its a combined effort 

The worst offender is a gas boiler but they are just too efficient ATM and the alternative needs massively improving as they only really suit new builds 

Plus it's the daily mail


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## bobmac (Feb 8, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Are electric cars hailed as the saviour of the planet alone?

Its a combined effort

The worst offender is a gas boiler but they are just too efficient ATM and the alternative needs massively improving as they only really suit new builds

Plus it's the daily mail
		
Click to expand...

Plus, it's Bjorn Lomborg


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2022)

larmen said:



			There are a couple of people here where I would say a plug in hybrid would be their best choice? Are these hybrids still ‘future proof’ or are they outdated by the acceleration of EVs already?
		
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It seems like Hybrids are done and people are better off with an electric or efficient ICE if EV isn't right.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 11, 2022)

larmen said:



			It seems like Hybrids are done and people are better off with an electric or efficient ICE if EV isn't right.






Click to expand...

most hybrids have very small pure electric range. 20-30 miles,  they rely on petrol and therefore cannot be a long term solution.

They are very good at extending the vehicle range compared to petrol alone, but it really is just paying lip service to the main problem


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			most hybrids have very small pure electric range. 20-30 miles,  they rely on petrol and therefore cannot be a long term solution.

They are very good at extending the vehicle range compared to petrol alone, but it really is just paying lip service to the main problem
		
Click to expand...

I thought before that for people like me who drive 4 miles each way to the shop, or people that drive 15 miles each way to work, but then want the long range for the occasional trip they sound ideal. But it might not be. And by teh time I am swapping the car electric will be the only choice, I think.

The one journey where I would really have range excitement would be driving to the airport, parking there for a week, then driving back. Both not journeys you want to stop charging.
But I think that's well within range of any EV at this point.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

Be honest...
A 1982 Ferrari 308 or a Tesla?


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



View attachment 41118


Be honest...
A 1982 Ferrari 308 or a Tesla?
		
Click to expand...

The 308 any day of the week.
Has character and style the Tesla can only dream of.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



View attachment 41118


Be honest...
A 1982 Ferrari 308 or a Tesla?
		
Click to expand...

Does that come with a hoist to help you out of it?


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The 308 any day of the week.
Has character and style the Tesla can only dream of.
		
Click to expand...

*You can have both*


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## rosecott (Feb 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Does that come with a hoist to help you out of it?
		
Click to expand...

Come on, Bob is not as decrepit as that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Come on, Bob is not as decrepit as that.
		
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Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



*You can have both*

Click to expand...

But you take away one of the best things about the Ferrari - the engine. 

What’s the point in having a sports car that’s mute 

Like going to see a concert and they turn the microphones off


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆
		
Click to expand...

My Bro's Mk 1 Spit was veryy much the same - and that was when I was young and flexible! Suspension was not designed for the couple of roads literally carved out of rock traversing the Southern Alps either!


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



*You can have both*

Click to expand...

Sorry, a Tesla has neither character or style. They are jelly moulds of passionless lumps.
Even the Reliant Robin had more style and character.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But you take away one of the best things about the Ferrari - the engine.

What’s the point in having a sports car that’s mute

Like going to see a concert and they turn the microphones off
		
Click to expand...

I've never been in a Ferrari, electric or otherwise but when a man who has been in both says the electric is better all round, I'll take his word for it.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sorry, a Tesla has neither character or style. They are jelly moulds of passionless lumps.
Even the Reliant Robin had more style and character.
		
Click to expand...

But that Ferrari is powered by a Tesla motor so performance and style


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Come on, Bob is not as decrepit as that.
		
Click to expand...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I've never been in a Ferrari, electric or otherwise but when a man who has been in both says the electric is better all round, I'll take his word for it.
		
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I have been in a Ferrari and a Porsche , Lamborghini as well as. i8 and a Tesla 

Being in a Ferrari and hearing the roar of the engine the shift when you drop it down a gear , going through a tunnel and hearing the noise - you know you’re in a sports car and it’s a thrill - the noise of a Vantage is superb 

Never got any of that from an i8 - it’s mute , you can hear the odd whir of a battery , you can have some pretend noise if you want and the Tesla is no different - it’s souless and flat , it’s just about getting you somewhere 

You don’t get a Ferrari or sports car to go from a to b


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have been in a Ferrari and a Porsche , Lamborghini as well as. i8 and a Tesla

Being in a Ferrari and hearing the roar of the engine the shift when you drop it down a gear , going through a tunnel and hearing the noise - you know you’re in a sports car and it’s a thrill - the noise of a Vantage is superb

Never got any of that from an i8 - it’s mute , you can hear the odd whir of a battery , you can have some pretend noise if you want and the Tesla is no different - it’s souless and flat , it’s just about getting you somewhere

You don’t get a Ferrari or sports car to go from a to b
		
Click to expand...

Really? sports cars are noisey? I never knew that.
Noise isn't everything, I know it is to some but not everyone.


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## Slime (Feb 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆
		
Click to expand...

I just hope you weren't wearing a skirt on that day!


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## Slime (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Really? sports cars are noisey? I never knew that.
*Noise isn't everything*, I know it is to some but not everyone.
		
Click to expand...

No noise, no soul ................................. in my opinion.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2022)

Slime said:



			I just hope you weren't wearing a skirt on that day! 

Click to expand...

I'd have been done for indecent exposure if I had been 😆


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## chrisd (Feb 13, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆
		
Click to expand...

 Mrs d had a Lotus Elise some years ago, I had the same problem in getting in and out. She once parked on a steep hill and I absolutely could not get out!


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## cliveb (Feb 13, 2022)

When the Elise first came out I wanted one more than I've ever wanted any car. Sex on wheels. Unfortunately with 2 young kids it was completely impractical.
Now I could just go out and get one, it's obvious that I'd put my back out trying to get in the damn thing.


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## chrisd (Feb 13, 2022)

cliveb said:



			When the Elise first came out I wanted one more than I've ever wanted any car. Sex on wheels. Unfortunately with 2 young kids it was completely impractical.
Now I could just go out and get one, it's obvious that I'd put my back out trying to get in the damn thing.
		
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Mrs d's main claim was that she could get a weeks shop in it !!


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

The point is you can have the character and style of a 308 AND the performance, handling and power of an electric motor.
It's a bit like buying a grade 2 Georgian house and installing central heating. Same house, just better.

But for those who like the original, there is a 1982 RHD 308 for sale on Autotrader and if you get bored of the noise, you can always turn up the infotainment centre. Ahhhh Medium wave.     
A snip at only £84,995


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## DaveR (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The point is you can have the character and style of a 308 AND the performance, handling and power of an electric motor.
It's a bit like buying a grade 2 Georgian house and installing central heating. Same house, just better.

But for those who like the original, there is a 1982 RHD 308 for sale on Autotrader and if you get bored of the noise, you can always turn up the infotainment centre. Ahhhh Medium wave.    
A snip at only £84,995

View attachment 41164

Click to expand...

I can't imagine anyone wanting a 40 year old Tesla enough to fork out 85 grand.


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## drdel (Feb 14, 2022)

I wish I'd hung on to my1972 246GT, bought for £2.5k, now selling for in excess of 100x that !

Now the everyday motor is a PHEV


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I can't imagine anyone wanting a 40 year old Tesla enough to fork out 85 grand.
		
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Especially not with a LW/MW cassette player and 100 miles of range on a full tank (9.1 gallons)
No wonder it's only done 12,050 miles in 40 years. £6 for 10 miles.
Nice noise though.


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## Robster59 (Feb 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆
		
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I remember doing the same thing when shopping for a car with my missus.  There was a Vauxhall VXR in the showroom and I thought I would have a sit in it.  Getting in, not too bad.  Getting out?  I finished up exactly the same, had to turn around and get out on my hands and knees.  Quite embarrassing.


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## Beezerk (Feb 14, 2022)

cliveb said:



			When the Elise first came out I wanted one more than I've ever wanted any car. Sex on wheels. Unfortunately with 2 young kids it was completely impractical.
Now I could just go out and get one, it's obvious that I'd put my back out trying to get in the damn thing.
		
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Yeah I almost bought one as well back in the early 2000s. There was a Mini Cooper and an Elise at the same price, I went for the Mini 😂


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## road2ruin (Feb 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. A few years ago a mate of mine down in London had a lotus Elise. After staying with him he gave me a lift to a tube station. I tried, unsuccessfully to get out normally. After 2 failed attempts I decided to take a different approach and effectively crawled out on my hands and knees. Not the most dignified approach, thankfully it was a dry day and the pavement wasn't wet. I look at cars like the one in the post and wince now 😆
		
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I used to own a 2.8l BMW Z3, took my dad for a drive one day and whilst getting in (or falling in) was okay getting out was a challenge even for myself. In the end we had to take the roof off so he could get leverage and then two of us pulled from the outside.


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

So they look good on posters on your bedroom wall and they make a great noise, but they are relatively slow, no sat nav, no usb sockets, no air bags, no power steering, rubbish handling, no back seats, £250+ road tax  and you can't get out of them. 10mpg 

Or you could buy a Tesla and put a V8 in it


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So they look good on posters on your bedroom wall and they make a great noise, but they are relatively slow, no sat nav, no usb sockets, no air bags, no power steering, rubbish handling, no back seats, £250+ road tax  and you can't get out of them. 10mpg 

Or you could buy a Tesla and put a V8 in it  

Click to expand...

So what’s your point ?

Yes we know you are a fan of electric cars. The point is clear , you make it on a regular basis 

There is also fans of a good old engine in a sports car to give them what they want from a sports car 

It’s been explained by a number of people to you on a number of occasions why some just don’t like or want an electric car 

Why keep going on about ? People aren’t on a daily basis posting all about how great their ICE car is , there is no need to emphasis the point on a daily basis for them 

A Ferrari or a Porsche or a Lamborghini or Aston or Bugatti etc is about a driving expirence and that experience doesn’t include a radio or sat Nav or a battery - it includes a bug throaty engine that can roar through a tunnel or you can feel the revs go up to feel the pull - it’s the full experience and that doesn’t include driving a car that’s quiet as a mouse or has USB points or sat Nav or even a radio and electric windows 

You either understand or ignore it


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So they look good on posters on your bedroom wall and they make a great noise, but they are relatively slow, no sat nav, no usb sockets, no air bags, no power steering, rubbish handling, no back seats, £250+ road tax  and you can't get out of them. 10mpg 
...
		
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For those that buy them, most of the 'criticism' is part of _why_ they buy them! And many of the ones purchased don't need road tax either!
I know which one has the better 0-60 spec though!


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

I made about 3 attempts to answer that post and none could be considered polite so you'll be pleased to know I won't be responding


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 14, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what’s your point ?

Yes we know you are a fan of electric cars. The point is clear , you make it on a regular basis

There is also fans of a good old engine in a sports car to give them what they want from a sports car

It’s been explained by a number of people to you on a number of occasions why some just don’t like or want an electric car

Why keep going on about ? People aren’t on a daily basis posting all about how great their ICE car is , there is no need to emphasis the point on a daily basis for them

A Ferrari or a Porsche or a Lamborghini or Aston or Bugatti etc is about a driving expirence and that experience doesn’t include a radio or sat Nav or a battery - it includes a bug throaty engine that can roar through a tunnel or you can feel the revs go up to feel the pull - it’s the full experience and that doesn’t include driving a car that’s quiet as a mouse or has USB points or sat Nav or even a radio and electric windows

You either understand or ignore it
		
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Comparing a Tesla with a performance car, and I mean a proper performance car, like the ones you list, but also down to things like a BMW M3, is daft as there is simply no contest as to which is the fastest. The Tesla wouldn't get close.

The more relevant comparison is those that just like the fast in a straight line away from the traffic lights experience. The kind of experience delivered by numerous family cars these days that churn out 250bhp plus, a good number of them diesels too. Like my BMW 330d, as an example, which is not a performance car even though it's fast 0-60 and gets round corners tidily compared to most other family cars. The Tesla would of course be much faster 0-60, although I'd wager that the 330d would still smash it in a race around a track. 

My point is, anyone that seeks to compare a tesla and a performance car (which I appreciate you are not and making the same point as me) is barking up the wrong tree. Compare it against 3 litre diesels from Audi and BMW and whoever else makes fast family cars. There is nothing that any electric car delivers that is relevant to the question of whether it's a better buy than a Ferrari 308.  

As an aside, I saw a F355 on the road for the first time in ages last week, what a beauty. Love that car!


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## drdel (Feb 14, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Comparing a Tesla with a performance car, and I mean a proper performance car, like the ones you list, but also down to things like a BMW M3, is daft as there is simply no contest as to which is the fastest. The Tesla wouldn't get close.

The more relevant comparison is those that just like the fast in a straight line away from the traffic lights experience. The kind of experience delivered by numerous family cars these days that churn out 250bhp plus, a good number of them diesels too. Like my BMW 330d, as an example, which is not a performance car even though it's fast 0-60 and gets round corners tidily compared to most other family cars. The Tesla would of course be much faster 0-60, although I'd wager that the 330d would still smash it in a race around a track.

My point is, anyone that seeks to compare a tesla and a performance car (which I appreciate you are not and making the same point as me) is barking up the wrong tree. Compare it against 3 litre diesels from Audi and BMW and whoever else makes fast family cars. There is nothing that any electric car delivers that is relevant to the question of whether it's a better buy than a Ferrari 308. 

As an aside, I saw a F355 on the road for the first time in ages last week, what a beauty. Love that car!
		
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The 246 Dino was a far better looking car than the 308 by miles....


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## BiMGuy (Feb 14, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Comparing a Tesla with a performance car, and I mean a proper performance car, like the ones you list, but also down to things like a BMW M3, is daft as there is simply no contest as to which is the fastest. The Tesla wouldn't get close.

The more relevant comparison is those that just like the fast in a straight line away from the traffic lights experience. The kind of experience delivered by numerous family cars these days that churn out 250bhp plus, a good number of them diesels too. Like my BMW 330d, as an example, which is not a performance car even though it's fast 0-60 and gets round corners tidily compared to most other family cars. The Tesla would of course be much faster 0-60, although I'd wager that the 330d would still smash it in a race around a track.

My point is, anyone that seeks to compare a tesla and a performance car (which I appreciate you are not and making the same point as me) is barking up the wrong tree. Compare it against 3 litre diesels from Audi and BMW and whoever else makes fast family cars. There is nothing that any electric car delivers that is relevant to the question of whether it's a better buy than a Ferrari 308. 

As an aside, I saw a F355 on the road for the first time in ages last week, what a beauty. Love that car!
		
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I’m sorry, but as quick as a 330D might feel, it’s really not. And they don’t handle particularly well either. You wouldn’t see which way the Tesla went. 

Top gear ran an M3 v a Tesla. The M3 didn’t fare well. 

Having had two M3s. I’d have one over any Tesla in a heartbeat.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-m3-elon-musk


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## Canary_Yellow (Feb 14, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’m sorry, but as quick as a 330D might feel, it’s really not. And they don’t handle particularly well either. You wouldn’t see which way the Tesla went.

Top gear ran an M3 v a Tesla. The M3 didn’t fare well.

Having had two M3s. I’d have one over any Tesla in a heartbeat.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-m3-elon-musk

Click to expand...

You've misunderstood my point. As I said, a 330d is not a performance car albeit it is no slouch. The Tesla would of course take the lead on the first couple of laps of a race on a track, but how many laps before it overheats and performance is reduced? 2? 3? Maybe up to 5? Then how many more until it's completely drained its battery going at full power? Another 10?

The Top Gear test you've referred to there is only comparing a tesla and an M3 in a way that the tesla has any hope of competing. A 50 lap race round a proper circuit, the Tesla wouldn't even finish. It's daft to compare a Tesla and an M3 if you want the M3 for its true driving credentials as a track car rather than as a status symbol. I appreciate though that it is not altogether irrelevant as for everyday road use, the top gear test is more comparable and how many really buy an M3 for its track credentials?

But my point is really that the Tesla should not be compared with cars that are designed to cope with the rigours of a race around a track. It should be compared with other cars that are not, such as mine, or a 340i, maybe even an M3 or whatever else. Which would win on a 50 lap race round Spa out of a 330d and a Tesla is a ridiculous question to even be pondering because that's not what either is for. But it would be the 330d.... ;-)


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 14, 2022)

My guess is that  *only* electric cars will bve available within a decade.
No idea if I'll see be around to buy one, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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## DaveR (Feb 14, 2022)

Don't buy an EV if you need to tow regularly


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			My guess is that  *only* electric cars will bve available within a decade.
No idea if I'll see be around to buy one, but I wouldn't bet on it.
		
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How are sales of electric cars going in the US? I can see that being a tough sell.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So they look good on posters on your bedroom wall and they make a great noise, but they are relatively slow, no sat nav, no usb sockets, no air bags, no power steering, rubbish handling, no back seats, £250+ road tax  and you can't get out of them. 10mpg 

Or you could buy a Tesla and put a V8 in it  

Click to expand...

and car nuts will still love them. I would put a lot of money ion their being no 40 year old teslas still on the rod in 2062! But if you want to compare a near 100k Tesla - choose a modern similarly priced car - plenty of options. Indeed i would take the 50k petrol option anytime over the much dearer Tesla


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How are sales of electric cars going in the US? I can see that being a tough sell.
		
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Electric cars will be accepted in urban Coastal Aamerica and resisted in rural Middle America.
They are essentially different nations attempting (with very poor results) to share the same national government.

America will do what it always does...follow the rest of the world, only at least a  decade and usually more than that late.
Adopting electric cars will be no different than abolishing slavery in that regard.
There's a resaon for this.

Remember that the term "American" refers ONLY to a nationality, NOT to an ethnicity.
We have a heterogeneous  population comprised of factions that despise one another.
We can't do anything collectively until we're given no choice.

The key to undrstanding Americans is this:

Middle Americans refuse to be governed, while Coastal Americans refuse to be inconvenienced.
Eventually, we're all forced to do the right thing, but it will always happen long after it should have happened.
And someday soon, it may not happen at all and the Goths will be at the gate.
No republic endures forever.


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## pool888 (Feb 14, 2022)

Not sure why we're even comparing an old Ferrari to a Tesla, has anyone ever thought about buying a car and whittled it down to two, a 30 year old 2 seater sports car or a new family EV. The Ferrari was a rare special car in it's day and is now a well sought after classic, it would have cost several times the price or a common run around saloon, which the Tesla is the modern equivalent of now. Think most people would take the Ferrari until the reality of what it would cost to run it as a daily vehicle hits. The Ferrari is to buy, admire and store, used for the odd very special occasion, the Tesla is a good family daily, fast, practical and cheap to run.


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

pool888 said:



			The Ferrari is to buy, admire and store, used for the odd very special occasion, the Tesla is a good family daily, fast, practical and cheap to run.
		
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The point I was trying to make is you can take an old favourite, fit an electric motor and have the best of both worlds, classic styling with modern handling and performance. Hence my comment about fitting central heating in a Georgian manor house. Think of an Alfa Romeo that doesn't break down.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 14, 2022)

No, the best of both worlds is to own both cars.

I do not understand the obsession with needing one car that does everything. It's never been true in the past and it will never be true in the future.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 14, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Electric cars will be accepted in urban Coastal Aamerica and resisted in rural Middle America.
They are essentially different nations attempting (with very poor results) to share the same national government.

America will do what it always does...follow the rest of the world, only at least a  decade and usually more than that late.
Adopting electric cars will be no different than abolishing slavery in that regard.
There's a resaon for this.

Remember that the term "American" refers ONLY to a nationality, NOT to an ethnicity.
We have a heterogeneous  population comprised of factions that despise one another.
We can't do anything collectively until we're given no choice.

The key to undrstanding Americans is this:

Middle Americans refuse to be governed, while Coastal Americans refuse to be inconvenienced.
Eventually, we're all forced to do the right thing, but it will always happen long after it should have happened.
And someday soon, it may not happen at all and the Goths will be at the gate.
No republic endures forever.
		
Click to expand...


In my head I always read Ye Old Boomers post in a Bob Bubka voice. Don't know why it just amuses me.


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## pool888 (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The point I was trying to make is you can take an old favourite, fit an electric motor and have the best of both worlds, classic styling with modern handling and performance. Hence my comment about fitting central heating in a Georgian manor house. Think of an Alfa Romeo that doesn't break down.
		
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Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, maybe missed some important info. Yes you could do that, but why would you? You lose the whole point of the Ferrari, you need to buy it, do an expensive conversion, it would be hard to insure I would imagine, and you still have the problems of getting parts for a classic car, and in addition you likely also kill the resale value of it. Maybe look for something like a Alfa Giulia GT.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 14, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The point I was trying to make is you can take an old favourite, fit an electric motor and have the best of both worlds, classic styling with modern handling and performance. Hence my comment about fitting central heating in a Georgian manor house. Think of an Alfa Romeo that doesn't break down.
		
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no, no, no. Take the engine out and you basically lobotomise it


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## bobmac (Feb 14, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			no, no, no. Take the engine out and you basically lobotomise it
		
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It doesn't have to be a Ferrari 308, it could be a mini, a VW campervan, an old jeep, anything, even an Alfa Giulia GT.


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2022)

pool888 said:



			...Maybe look for something like a Alfa Giulia GT.
		
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Like this one? https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/electrified-518bhp-restomodded-alfa-giulia-gt


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## BiMGuy (Feb 14, 2022)

There is quite a market for the electrification of classic cars. And they are usually very expensive.


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## pool888 (Feb 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Like this one? https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/electrified-518bhp-restomodded-alfa-giulia-gt

Click to expand...

Yes that's the one I meant, I remember seeing it a while ago, but didn't realise it was THAT expensive, for some reason I thought it was just over £100K. Ooops


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## GreiginFife (Feb 14, 2022)

Personally, I'd go for it's newer brethren with more power for about a third of the cost...


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## GreiginFife (Feb 14, 2022)

If BMW don't get their fingers out with my 8er then I am of a mind to cancel and I have been drawn to the new Lotus Emira as my last hurrah to the ICE world. Similar pricing as the 8er but at least 150% less practical


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Personally, I'd go for it's newer brethren with more power for about a third of the cost...





Click to expand...

As long as they put the number plate in the middle!!


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## GreiginFife (Feb 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			As long as they put the number plate in the middle!!

Click to expand...

Absolutely not. Alfas play by different rules.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 15, 2022)

pool888 said:



			Not sure why we're even comparing an old Ferrari to a Tesla, has anyone ever thought about buying a car and whittled it down to two, a 30 year old 2 seater sports car or a new family EV. The Ferrari was a rare special car in it's day and is now a well sought after classic, it would have cost several times the price or a common run around saloon, which the Tesla is the modern equivalent of now. Think most people would take the Ferrari until the reality of what it would cost to run it as a daily vehicle hits. The Ferrari is to buy, admire and store, used for the odd very special occasion, the Tesla is a good family daily, fast, practical and cheap to run.
		
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There are car users and there are drivers; a driver would never make the comparison, a car user might.


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## rosecott (Feb 15, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If BMW don't get their fingers out with my 8er then I am of a mind to cancel and I have been drawn to the new Lotus Emira as my last hurrah to the ICE world. Similar pricing as the 8er but at least 150% less practical 






Click to expand...

Shouldn't this be in the midlife crisis thread?


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## GreiginFife (Feb 15, 2022)

rosecott said:



			Shouldn't this be in the midlife crisis thread?
		
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I can assure you, whilst I may be mid life, there is no crisis!


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## cliveb (Feb 20, 2022)

I've been vaguely interested in electric cars for a while. Back in 2018 I nearly bought a Renault Zoe, until I discovered that the lease cost of the battery was more than I spend on petrol(!)
Of course things have changed since then, so I've recently revisited the costs. (While it's great that we all want to do our bit to help climate change, the simple fact remains that economic factors are a major part of most people's choice of car).

Let's say petrol is £1.50 a litre. Modern family petrol cars typically do about 45mpg, so we're talking a fuel cost of about 15p a mile.
Electricity costs vary, depending on whether you charge at home or on the road, and if you have a cheap overnight tariff at home.
But let's say that averaged out, electricity is going to cost around 20p per kWh. Electric cars tend to get about 4 miles per kWh, so that's 5p per mile.
In other words, the fuel cost saving of an electric car is about 10p a mile.
Now, given that the electric version of a car tends to be about £10,000 more than its petrol equivalent, you won't break even on the up-front purchase premium for the electric car until you've travelled 100,000 miles.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

That may have been the case a few years ago, but things have changed.
I think if you ask some EV owners on here how much they pay for charging it would be a lot less than 20p per kWh and are EVs really still £10,000 more than ICE cars. Not to mention maintenance, road tax etc.
But if you don't want to buy one, dont.


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## cliveb (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I think if you ask some EV owners on here how much they pay for charging it would be a lot less than 20p per kWh
		
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Perhaps some EV owners here will let us know.
AFAICT, there are no public chargers that are less than 20p/kWh, and the current (soon to be increased) cap for domestic is 21p/kWh.
Only those with Economy 7 or that special Octopus tariff are going to get it for less.


bobmac said:



			and are EVs really still £10,000 more than ICE cars. Not to mention maintenance, road tax etc.
		
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I tried to compare like-for-like, and the three that I found were Peugeot 2008, VW Up and Mini. All were at least 10 grand more for the electric version.
I accept that maintenance might be a bit less for electric - far fewer moving parts.
Again, perhaps some EV owners here will tell us how much a service costs (and what the service interval is).


bobmac said:



			But if you don't want to buy one, dont.
		
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I would like to buy one.
Every time I make the 1.5 mile journey to the golf club, or 2 miles to Tesco, or even 55 miles to the mother-in-law, I think how much better it would be to have an electric car.
But I can't justify it from an economic aspect.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			That may have been the case a few years ago, but things have changed.
I think if you ask some EV owners on here how much they pay for charging it would be a lot less than 20p per kWh and are EVs really still £10,000 more than ICE cars. Not to mention maintenance, road tax etc.
But if you don't want to buy one, dont.
		
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Presumably that charging rate is going to jump as electricity prices are increasing so sharply. It will be interesting to see the charging rates by the middle of the year.

Clearly, petrol and diesel prices are currently very high so that isn't an 'ice is better' comment.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Perhaps some EV owners here will let us know.
*AFAICT, there are no public chargers that are less than 20p/kWh*, and the current (soon to be increased) cap for domestic is 21p/kWh.
Only those with Economy 7 or that special Octopus tariff are going to get it for less.
Every time I make the 1.5 mile journey to the golf club, or *2 miles to Tesco*, or even 55 miles to the mother-in-law, I think how much better it would be to have an electric car.
But I can't justify it from an economic aspect.
		
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I don't know where you live but our local Tesco has 7kwh and 22kwh chargers which are free to use.


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## cliveb (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I don't know where you live but our local Tesco has 7kwh and 22kwh chargers which are free to use.
		
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Ah right. Sorry, I was forgetting about the supermarket free chargers. How long are you allowed to use them for?

And I suppose some businesses might have free daytime charging for their employees. I wonder how long before HMRC regards that as a BIK?

BTW, which EV do you drive, and how much would you say you pay per kWh on average?


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

I haven't got an EV, yet, have you seen the price of them?   but I am saving for one.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I don't know where you live but our local Tesco has 7kwh and 22kwh chargers which are free to use.
		
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The free ones at supermarkets aren’t rapid chargers
They are fine if you are going to be there for an hour and want to boost your range by 50 miles or so, but in the real world the only public chargers worth using are Rapid or ultra rapid.

Non rapid chargers are only of real use if you can use for several hours or overnight, same goes for lamp post chargers which are a great idea, just not rapid


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The free ones at supermarkets aren’t rapid chargers
They are fine if you are going to be there for an hour and want to boost your range by 50 miles or so, but in the real world the only public chargers worth using are Rapid or ultra rapid.

Non rapid chargers are only of real use if you can use for several hours or overnight, same goes for lamp post chargers which are a great idea, just not rapid
		
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How many free gallons of petrol/diesel can you get in an hour?


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## Imurg (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How many free gallons of petrol/diesel can you get in an hour?
		
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The point is that it's not feasible to rely on the supermarket chargers in the real world.
You have to charge at home or at the pay to charge units.
And that cost per Kw/h is going up.


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## Slime (Feb 20, 2022)

No.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How many free gallons of petrol/diesel can you get in an hour?
		
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Nothing is free, so why should everyone else subsidise EV charging?
 No one else pays for the leccy to power my washing machine so my clothes are clean and hygenic for when I go into customers houses.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The point is that it's not feasible to rely on the supermarket chargers in the real world.
		
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I totally agree for some, but for many, it's ideal.
The infrastructure isn't there yet, the range isn't there yet for some and they are still expensive, we all know that but things are changing

I've said all along, if you don't want an EV, don't buy one.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Nothing is free, so why should everyone else subsidise EV charging?
		
Click to expand...

Cliveb wrote
''AFAICT, there are no public chargers that are less than 20p/kWh''

I was updating him with the news that many supermarkets are free.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Cliveb wrote
''AFAICT, there are no public chargers that are less than 20p/kWh''

*I was updating him with the news that many supermarkets are free*.
		
Click to expand...

And I was saying nothing is ever free, someone is paying for it somewhere....usually everyone else.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 20, 2022)

Sorry Bob the free supermarket ones are ok but aren't long term solution. They won't be free forever, instavolt moved from 30p to 50p a kw due to the price increases (fine so long as it returns back when it drops which it won't)

You also forget one major bit 

People are selfish .. they park normal cars there because it's a space and "ice" it

Easily solved, build them at the BACK of car park not the front..... People are also lazy


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## pauljames87 (Feb 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Perhaps some EV owners here will let us know.
AFAICT, there are no public chargers that are less than 20p/kWh, and the current (soon to be increased) cap for domestic is 21p/kWh.
Only those with Economy 7 or that special Octopus tariff are going to get it for less.

I tried to compare like-for-like, and the three that I found were Peugeot 2008, VW Up and Mini. All were at least 10 grand more for the electric version.
I accept that maintenance might be a bit less for electric - far fewer moving parts.
Again, perhaps some EV owners here will tell us how much a service costs (and what the service interval is).

I would like to buy one.
Every time I make the 1.5 mile journey to the golf club, or 2 miles to Tesco, or even 55 miles to the mother-in-law, I think how much better it would be to have an electric car.
But I can't justify it from an economic aspect.
		
Click to expand...

Lease one for a few years see how you feel before investing all your money. All you lose in the depreciation in the 2-4 years you have the car then you hand it back at the same as if you sold it at that time (roughly)

Check our the new mgs , they got an estate and an SUV their more reasonable priced for what they are 

Can you charge at home? If so do so and switch to octupus go. Save a fortune getting it done at night 

A lot of leases include getting the home charger fitted .. so shop around 

Any questions happy to answer. I've run mine for 1 year done 10000 miles for about £100 in electric


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## cliveb (Feb 20, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've run mine for 1 year done 10000 miles for about £100 in electric
		
Click to expand...

Ah - finally some hard facts - many thanks.
Out of interest, what EV do you have?
You've managed to get it down to 1p a mile, which is amazing.
Assuming you get about 4 miles per kWh, you must have paid about 4p a unit for your electricity. Was it really that cheap?
Just checked and Octopus Go is now 7.5p/kWh overnight, so I guess next year you'll be suffering at 2p a mile


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## pauljames87 (Feb 20, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Ah - finally some hard facts - many thanks.
Out of interest, what EV do you have?
You've managed to get it down to 1p a mile, which is amazing.
Assuming you get about 4 miles per kWh, you must have paid about 4p a unit for your electricity. Was it really that cheap?
Just checked and Octopus Go is now 7.5p/kWh overnight, so I guess next year you'll be suffering at 2p a mile 

Click to expand...

My go was extended another year at 5.5p kw for 5 hours a night (go faster) I was lucky 

However next year mine may go up to 11p flat all day as I'm looking to move to the telsa energy plan (solar and battery going in) so car will go up (double) but the house will reduce greatly however I may stay with go and charge at night the battery and use during the day (self manage) 

Anyways back to the car it's a Corsa .. nothing flash, does what I need 50 miles a day and we use whenever we go out without the kids 

We have a socket at work we can use for granny chargers so I sometimes top up at work which has reduced my costs 

If I was charging home all time it would be about £200 a year


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And I was saying nothing is ever free, someone is paying for it somewhere....usually everyone else.
		
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We have 2 supermarkets in our town, Sainsbury and Tesco.
Sainsbury doesn't have EV charging so all EV owners go to Tesco, charge up without paying anything and do their shopping at the same time. So what Tesco are losing on giving pennies worth of free charging they are gaining on more customers in the shop spending their money.
Rooftop solar installations will also help keep the cost down to the public so they won't be completely reliant on the grid prices.

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/tesco_expands_its_solar_capacity_with_new_ppa_with_edf


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			We have 2 supermarkets in our town, Sainsbury and Tesco.
Sainsbury doesn't have EV charging so all EV owners go to Tesco, charge up without paying anything and do their shopping at the same time. So what Tesco are losing on giving pennies worth of free charging they are gaining on more customers in the shop spending their money.
Rooftop solar installations will also help keep the cost down to the public so they won't be completely reliant on the grid prices.

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/tesco_expands_its_solar_capacity_with_new_ppa_with_edf

Click to expand...

lidl charge for their podpoints so i see it as the way forward. you may be right about tesco .. however atm they are mainly clogged up by black cabs our way who then go off for an hour or so

whats more disappointing is the gov changing policy to force all car parks to have them and now its just NEW or refurbed car parks.. 

they really are holding back the tech whilst banning petrol 

its short sighted just to balance the books from covid


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

If they want to use Supermarkets or car parks as the enticement to go EV then they need to address the imbalance (or at least round here). Our Tesco has over 200 parking spaces and 2 chargers, which are always in use when I visit, so I’d either have to time it perfectly or sit and wait, defeating the purpose. 

Asda, over 400 spaces, 4 chargers. Aldi, c.150 spaces, 1 charger… This pattern repeats. 

Our village community centre was supposed to get a charge point installed for community use (topping up etc) but the council pulled the funding. Next village, exactly the same. 

At home charging is going to be the answer in the short to medium term IMO which creates issues for some that don’t have access. 

I will go EV for my next car but I won’t be doing on the basis that I can get free charging at Supermarkets as it’s unlikely I’d even get a charger that’s free, let alone free… 

We keep getting told that things are changing and in Fife, or at least West Fife, we have been continually told of all these projects to support the move to EV just to watch each and every one evaporate as the council pulls funding. 

I, personally, am frustrated by the intransigence of the local authority and the private businesses that could do more to help, keep telling us they are doing more or will do more, but nothing materialises. 

@bobmac that 2019 report on roof top Solar arrays, in the 2 odd years since, how many have been installed? I would bet not many. 

This post is not designed to be negative towards EVs themselves as I do think they are the next logical step, but a realistic view on the realities that despite promises of things getting better, there’s not much evidence of it.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If they want to use Supermarkets or car parks as the enticement to go EV then they need to address the imbalance (or at least round here). Our Tesco has over 200 parking spaces and 2 chargers, which are always in use when I visit, so I’d either have to time it perfectly or sit and wait, defeating the purpose.

Asda, over 400 spaces, 4 chargers. Aldi, c.150 spaces, 1 charger… This pattern repeats.
		
Click to expand...

The latest figures I could find show that there are 400k Electric vehicles in the UK and 750k Plug in hybrids. This compares to around 12 million ICE cars. That would fit with the allocation in supermarkets of around 1 in 100 vehicles being electric and providing 1 charging point for each 100 spaces. I would expect that number to increase with the increase in electric cars on the road and probably even faster if they start charging and can make money from them.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If they want to use Supermarkets or car parks as the enticement to go EV then they need to address the imbalance (or at least round here). Our Tesco has over 200 parking spaces and 2 chargers, which are always in use when I visit, so I’d either have to time it perfectly or sit and wait, defeating the purpose.

Asda, over 400 spaces, 4 chargers. Aldi, c.150 spaces, 1 charger… This pattern repeats.

Our village community centre was supposed to get a charge point installed for community use (topping up etc) but the council pulled the funding. Next village, exactly the same.

At home charging is going to be the answer in the short to medium term IMO which creates issues for some that don’t have access.

I will go EV for my next car but I won’t be doing on the basis that I can get free charging at Supermarkets as it’s unlikely I’d even get a charger that’s free, let alone free…

We keep getting told that things are changing and in Fife, or at least West Fife, we have been continually told of all these projects to support the move to EV just to watch each and every one evaporate as the council pulls funding.

I, personally, am frustrated by the intransigence of the local authority and the private businesses that could do more to help, keep telling us they are doing more or will do more, but nothing materialises.

@bobmac that 2019 report on roof top Solar arrays, in the 2 odd years since, how many have been installed? I would bet not many.

This post is not designed to be negative towards EVs themselves as I do think they are the next logical step, but a realistic view on the realities that despite promises of things getting better, there’s not much evidence of it.
		
Click to expand...

I can't disagree with anything you've said. 

_*''We're not going to waste money installing chargers, no-one's got an EV.''*
*''I'm not going to buy an EV, there's nowhere to charge them.''*_

Without doubt, in the near future, EVs will be used by those who don't drive long distances and can charge at home but that will change albeit frustratingly slowly


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The latest figures I could find show that there are 400k Electric vehicles in the UK and 750k Plug in hybrids. This compares to around 12 million ICE cars. That would fit with the allocation in supermarkets of around 1 in 100 vehicles being electric and providing 1 charging point for each 100 spaces.* I would expect that number to increase with the increase in electric cars on the road* and probably even faster if they start charging and can make money from them.
		
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I think the point there is that we keep being told this will happen but we don't really see any evidence of it. A charger here or there is not enough to give confidence to people to change. We need to see rows of them but the chat is 'they will come, trust us'. Come back to me when they are in, I don't trust them, whoever they/them are


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



_*''We're not going to waste money installing chargers, no-one's got an EV.''*_

Click to expand...

Just taking this statement though, if I use Tesco, Aldi and Asda round here as an example, they KNOW people have EVs as the charge points are *constantly *in use. So that argument, in their case, doesn't stack up. That's what frustrates me, they could do so much more but they simply don't. Which narrows the options, the viability and the desirability of EVs for people which then leads to the second statement.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The latest figures I could find show that there are 400k Electric vehicles in the UK and 750k Plug in hybrids. This compares to around 12 million ICE cars. That would fit with the allocation in supermarkets of around 1 in 100 vehicles being electric and providing 1 charging point for each 100 spaces. I would expect that number to increase with the increase in electric cars on the road and probably even faster if they start charging and can make money from them.
		
Click to expand...

It only takes a small variance from those ratios to cause a bottleneck though. The dangers of averages and statistics. If they only ever supply to the average then you'd have to have some sort of precognisance to know when exactly to go to get a charger. I just nipped to Tesco about half an hour ago and as usual the charge points are in use. My point above being that they *COULD *do more but by doing the bare minimum they help create the conditions of frustration and apathy that Bob highlights in his statements above. It becomes cyclic.


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## cliveb (Feb 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			whats more disappointing is the gov changing policy to force all car parks to have them and now its just NEW or refurbed car parks..
they really are holding back the tech whilst banning petrol
		
Click to expand...

The government is taking the easy way out - using the stick instead of the carrot.
It's much easier to ban ICE cars than build the infrastructure required to encourage people to move to EV.
It was ever thus when governments want to change people's behaviour.

Meanwhile, as long as electricity generation is primarily from fossil fuels, running an EV isn't actually any better for the environment than petrol.
Right now, banning ICE cars is more a political gesture to give the impression they're doing something about climate change.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 21, 2022)

https://news.sky.com/story/electric-car-prices-are-about-to-plummet-heres-why-12536407


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://news.sky.com/story/electric-car-prices-are-about-to-plummet-heres-why-12536407

Click to expand...

Certain models (and certain manufacturers) are actually bringing "comparable" EVs in with good competitive prices vs the ICE "equivalent". 

BMW's i4 M50 is approximately £10 - 13k cheaper than the M4 Competition. the M50 puts out 544HP whilst the ICE M4 cranks 504HP. The internal specifications (save for some "M" detailing) are pretty much the same as both 4er chassis based. The caveat here, obviously, is that the M50 will not _continuously_ provide that 544HP and will degrade as the battery drains whilst the M4 will always max at 504HP until it runs out of petrol. But for 10-13K less, that's a decent trade off in my book. 

Even the i4 s40 comes in, price wise, comparable with the M440i (albeit you lose one axel's drive) with similar power/spec alignments.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Meanwhile, as long as *electricity generation is primarily from fossil fuels,* running an EV isn't actually any better for the environment than petrol.
Right now, banning ICE cars is more a political gesture to give the impression they're doing something about climate change.
		
Click to expand...

Once again, that may have been the case a few years ago but the National Grid today tells a different story


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## BiMGuy (Feb 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			The government is taking the easy way out - using the stick instead of the carrot.
It's much easier to ban ICE cars than build the infrastructure required to encourage people to move to EV.
It was ever thus when governments want to change people's behaviour.

*Meanwhile, as long as electricity generation is primarily from fossil fuels, running an EV isn't actually any better for the environment than petrol*.
Right now, banning ICE cars is more a political gesture to give the impression they're doing something about climate change.
		
Click to expand...

You are ignoring the improvements in local air quality and noise pollution that EV has over ICE.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			You are ignoring the improvements in local air quality and noise pollution that EV has over ICE.
		
Click to expand...

It is very much moving pollution around for sure. Putting it away from where people live 

It's not ideal but as I always maintain its easier to make the switch over to electric and THEN change the grid slowly than change the grid and then switch 

People won't notice as much when say nuclear comes online for example .. end of day they get their electric same as before 

For me I got octupus and didn't even realise all their electric (they buy) is from 100% renewable sources .. as My mate says .. Paul it all comes down the same line from barking 

Which is true .. I don't notice any difference..my lights are still on my car still goes.. I don't notice what's going into it 

So it's a change that will happen 


Onto the price point. Fully charged YouTube channel did a compare of costs of lithium now to before and how cars haven't been coming down compared to price cuts 

It was like the industry is trying to suppress it a bit. Which is tin foil hat stuff but not beyond the relms .. let's be honest oil companies rule the world and it's in their interest to hold back electric cars ...keep the easy money going 

Mg have launched a few more competitive priced models 

It's not gonna be over night but change is slowly creeping


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## fundy (Feb 21, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The latest figures I could find show that there are 400k Electric vehicles in the UK and 750k Plug in hybrids. This compares to around 12 million ICE cars. That would fit with the allocation in supermarkets of around 1 in 100 vehicles being electric and providing 1 charging point for each 100 spaces. I would expect that number to increase with the increase in electric cars on the road and probably even faster if they start charging and can make money from them.
		
Click to expand...


Those numbers dont add up?

They look more like 1 in 10 than 1 in 100, but not sure i believe theres only 12m ICE cars


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## cliveb (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Once again, that may have been the case a few years ago but the National Grid today tells a different story

View attachment 41375

Click to expand...

It's good to see that things are improving, and let's hope they continue to do so.
But it's also interesting that you like to cherry pick data to support your cause. (Have you noticed that it's quite windy today?)
How about overall yearly averages:


Fossil fuels: 41.3%
Renewables: 24.6%
Others: 25%
(Presumably interconnectors account for the remaining 9.1%)

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see massive change to address climate change.
The problem is that everyone seems focussed on cars, when in fact they are a relatively minor contributor to the problem.
The UK government has always treated car drivers as an easy target for their political posturing.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			It's good to see that things are improving, and let's hope they continue to do so.
But it's also interesting that you like to cherry pick data to support your cause. (Have you noticed that it's quite windy today?)
How about overall yearly averages:
View attachment 41379

Fossil fuels: 41.3%
Renewables: 24.6%
Others: 25%
(Presumably interconnectors account for the remaining 9.1%)

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see massive change to address climate change.
The problem is that everyone seems focussed on cars, when in fact they are a relatively minor contributor to the problem.
The UK government has always treated car drivers as an easy target for their political posturing.
		
Click to expand...

The much much bigger elephant in the room is gas boilers .. their one of the most harmful things for the environment however they can't be beaten right now for heating home 

Heat pumps are costly and don't work fully in older homes 

Insulate Britain got the subject right but incorrectly went about it ... 

Really if fusion comes online and they make better electric boilers that are cheaper to run then the world has a chance 

However it's blooming long way off


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			It's good to see that things are improving, and let's hope they continue to do so.
But it's also interesting that you like to cherry pick data to support your cause. (Have you noticed that it's quite windy today?)
How about overall yearly averages:
View attachment 41379

Fossil fuels: 41.3%
Renewables: 24.6%
Others: 25%
(Presumably interconnectors account for the remaining 9.1%)
		
Click to expand...

Ok, the weekly figures show 23.6% fossil fuels
Monthly figures show 30.9% fossil fuels
And as you pointed out, the yearly figures show 41.3% fossil fuels.
So when you said '*'electricity generation is primarily from fossil fuels'' *you were out of date.
As was your assumption
_ ''running an EV isn't actually any better for the environment than petrol''_


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## cliveb (Feb 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Ok, the weekly figures show 23.6% fossil fuels
Monthly figures show 30.9% fossil fuels
And as you pointed out, the yearly figures show 41.3% fossil fuels.
So when you said '*'electricity generation is primarily from fossil fuels'' *you were out of date.
As was your assumption
_ ''running an EV isn't actually any better for the environment than petrol''_

Click to expand...

Fair point. I may have exaggerated a little.
Perhaps I should have said that running an EV isn't as green as some like to make out.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Fair point. I may have exaggerated a little.
Perhaps I should have said that running an EV isn't as green as some like to make out.
		
Click to expand...

_*Running *_an EV is though. It does not emit harmful gases. _*Fuelling *_an EV on the other hand, _may_ have reliance on some fossil fuel in the generation of said fuel. Compared to an ICE with is harmful to fuel and also harmful to run.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 21, 2022)

fundy said:



			Those numbers dont add up?

They look more like 1 in 10 than 1 in 100, but not sure i believe theres only 12m ICE cars
		
Click to expand...

Maths is hard. And you're quite right, ignoring my inability to do simple maths, I was also starting with incorrect figures. The values for EV and hybrid are correct. The 12 million is actually just the diesel powered cars. There's a further 19 million petrol powered cars. 

So that's approx 31 million ICE cars (I've rounded those numbers up. Actual total is 30.6 million in total) and 1.1 million EV/hybrid. I'm not going to embarrass myself further by trying to work out the exact number per 100, so let's just say it's more than 3 and less than 4 EV/hybrid for every ICE car.

Numbers are from Question 12 in the below article from RAC.....

https://www.racfoundation.org/motor...sel and,and 1.1 million alternatively-fuelled.


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## adam6177 (Feb 21, 2022)

Extreme case I accept, but a point for thought....a couple of towns less than 5 miles from me have basically been without electricity for 4 days now. Where would that leave electric car owners.


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Extreme case I accept, but a point for thought....a couple of towns less than 5 miles from me have basically been without electricity for 4 days now. Where would that leave electric car owners.
		
Click to expand...

At home...


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Extreme case I accept, but a point for thought....a couple of towns less than 5 miles from me have basically been without electricity for 4 days now. Where would that leave electric car owners.
		
Click to expand...

Powering my TV whilst the ICE owners stare at their four walls! 👀😃


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Extreme case I accept, but a point for thought....a couple of towns less than 5 miles from me have basically been without electricity for 4 days now. Where would that leave electric car owners.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, they did okay when the fuel shortage stupidity kicked off last year. Win some, lose some.


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## adam6177 (Feb 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			At home...
		
Click to expand...

🤣😂 Ha ha ha very whitty 😁


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2022)

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/n...m_source=campaign monitor&utm_term=Read more#


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/new-cars/2022-02/dacia-spring-electric-price-specs-and-release-date/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter 21 Feb 2022&utm_content=Newsletter 21 Feb 2022+CID_6a58c1e7fc06fbd798686ddaae3066fe&utm_source=campaign monitor&utm_term=Read more#

Click to expand...

That's a game changer 

Yes miles are a bit rubbish but that would suit a lot of people's needs for sure 

Price is decent


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's a game changer

*Yes miles are a bit rubbish* but that would suit a lot of people's needs for sure

Price is decent
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, is increasing the range as simple as changing the battery for a better one or is it more complicated than that?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Out of interest, is increasing the range as simple as changing the battery for a better one or is it more complicated than that?
		
Click to expand...

It depends, battery capacity mainly gives you the range .. but higher you go in capacity the more money u need to spend

I should also add companies sometimes have two range options .. so increased battery 

Tbh they should all offer it then you can pick between range and cost


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Extreme case I accept, but a point for thought....a couple of towns less than 5 miles from me have basically been without electricity for 4 days now. Where would that leave electric car owners.
		
Click to expand...

Would the petrol pumps work if there was no power?


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## GreiginFife (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That's a game changer

Yes miles are a bit rubbish but that would suit a lot of people's needs for sure

Price is decent
		
Click to expand...

But by god and all things holy is it ugly.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

Beauty is in the eye of the bewotsit
Plenty of ugly people have got married.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			But by god and all things holy is it ugly.
		
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you are not wrong for sure. However there was a complain previously where is the dacia electric car.. when comparing that a sandero or whatever is 10k 

so options are coming

not an option id look at but i like that MG.. plain, boring but cheap and well sized

keeping eye on the skodas, VW and new kia ones aswell


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## GreiginFife (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			you are not wrong for sure. However there was a complain previously where is the dacia electric car.. when comparing that a sandero or whatever is 10k

so options are coming

not an option id look at but i like that MG.. plain, boring but cheap and well sized

keeping eye on the skodas, VW and new kia ones aswell
		
Click to expand...

Funny you mention the MG. My mate’s neighbour has just got one. I had a nosey around and first impressions was with that amount of plastic, it’s not saving the planet. Never seen so much plastic trim everywhere. 

I get it’s a price point, but at least look like you’re trying.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Funny you mention the MG. My mate’s neighbour has just got one. I had a nosey around and first impressions was *with that amount of plastic, it’s not saving the planet.* Never seen so much plastic trim everywhere.

I get it’s a price point, but at least look like you’re trying.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, but no one is talking about that. It's all about emmissions right now, nothing else seems to matter. Not really joined up thinking.

It's a criticism aimed at all, not just electric car mfrs


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Funny you mention the MG. My mate’s neighbour has just got one. I had a nosey around and first impressions was with that amount of plastic, it’s not saving the planet. Never seen so much plastic trim everywhere.

I get it’s a price point, but at least look like you’re trying.
		
Click to expand...

is that the compromise you have to make right now until the battery costs come down? Im not sure. isnt the Leaf for example built from recycled plastics or reclaimed or something.

hopefully things will change soon..


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## GreiginFife (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			is that the compromise you have to make right now until the battery costs come down? Im not sure. isnt the Leaf for example built from recycled plastics or reclaimed or something.

hopefully things will change soon..
		
Click to expand...

There are more that are using recycled plastic but it’s still plastic at the end of the day. 

Was it Polestar that used some reprocessed natural fibre for the seats in a concept car? That would be interesting. 

It’s not a compromise that I, personally, would make right now as it just looks awful. The ones with the MG also have an EQC which is better, although not an SUV fan it certainly looks like it has better built quality. But then it has the price tag with that. 

Still not sure about grille-less cars though… yes, I know they aren’t needed but that EQC just looks odd from the front.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There are more that are using recycled plastic but it’s still plastic at the end of the day.

Was it Polestar that used some reprocessed natural fibre for the seats in a concept car? That would be interesting.

It’s not a compromise that I, personally, would make right now as it just looks awful. The ones with the MG also have an EQC which is better, although not an SUV fan it certainly looks like it has better built quality. But then it has the price tag with that.

Still not sure about grille-less cars though… yes, I know they aren’t needed but that EQC just looks odd from the front.
		
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the hyundai kona electric has it aswell.. or doesnt should I say

personally I prefer EVs that just look like normal cars until you open the charge point... I mean dont get me wrong give me a model Y.. or a ID4 I wont say no but my car for example just looked like your average car until I open the "fuel cap" and there is a socket there to charge it

the new KIA EV6 is it? thats one weird future looking car ..


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 22, 2022)

A TOP speed of 78mph?
Unless you are prepared to drive like a snail, they are going to frustrate the life out of everyone in or around them.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A TOP speed of 78mph?
Unless you are prepared to drive like a snail, they are going to frustrate the life out of everyone in or around them.
		
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78 mph is fine as we'll all be stuck behind cyclists


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## BiMGuy (Feb 22, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A TOP speed of 78mph?
Unless you are prepared to drive like a snail, they are going to frustrate the life out of everyone in or around them.
		
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Why is a top speed that is above the maximum speed allowed going to frustrate anyone?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			A TOP speed of 78mph?
Unless you are prepared to drive like a snail, they are going to frustrate the life out of everyone in or around them.
		
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Yet the legal limit is 70 max .. if down a country lane it's 60 max so who exactly can get annoyed at people going the speed limit .. under yeah I get that but if someone is doing the limit you can't get angry at them.

If they are in the "fast" lane on motorway people may get cross.. but they can always sit in lane 1.. or lane 2 if overtaking .... Perfectly fine.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2022)

I’m pretty sure that maximum speed won’t have been fully loaded, or uphill, or into a headwind or all 3; so whilst it can do the legal maximum on paper, real world it probably won’t and it will take some time to get to its its maximum speed, so if used on National speed limit roads it’s probably going to impact other road users. 

But as an urban runabout it seems fine and it’s getting nearer to affordable for the masses.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

If you have 5 kids, don't buy a one bedroom flat, buy what you need.
If you want to race up and down the German autobahns at 200 mph, buy a Lambo

People have been complaining there are too many big expensive electric SUVs being released and there is some truth in that, but when someone builds a smaller, cheaper, compact car which is perfect for city/semi rural life, the anti-EVers complain that it wont break the speed limit enough to keep them happy.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you have 5 kids, don't buy a one bedroom flat, buy what you need.
If you want to race up and down the German autobahns at 200 mph, buy a Lambo

People have been complaining there are too many big expensive electric SUVs being released and there is some truth in that, but when someone builds a smaller, cheaper, compact car which is perfect for city/semi rural life, the anti-EVers complain that it wont break the speed limit enough to keep them happy.
		
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To be fair Bob. The flat is a bad example considering the cost of housing and people having to live in what they can afford rather than what they need 

Which due to cost of EVs etc is becoming the same ATM 

However all that said the real problem is the race to the bottom this country prides itself in..

However if I carry in I 100% will get political so I won't carry on


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Why is a top speed that is above the maximum speed allowed going to frustrate anyone?
		
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I'm just wondering how long it'd take to reach said legal speed limit.
I would never want to be behind one on a non-motorway.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

Slime said:



			I'm just wondering how long it'd take to reach said legal speed limit.
I would never want to be behind one on a non-motorway.
		
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15 seconds 0-60

But call it 30 seconds to a minute


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			To be fair Bob. The flat is a bad example considering the cost of housing and people having to live in what they can afford rather than what they need
		
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If you can afford a 5 bedroom house but you buy a one bedroom flat then you would be daft. 
If you spend 99% of your life inside the M25 and you buy a 190mph Lambo you would be equally daft.
Buy what suits your needs.

Average speeds in London...
8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London
12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London
20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London

78mph is plenty for city/semi rural life.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you can afford a 5 bedroom house but you buy a one bedroom flat then you would be daft.
If you spend 99% of your life inside the M25 and you buy a 190mph Lambo you would be equally daft.
Buy what suits your needs.

Average speeds in London...
8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London
12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London
20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London

78mph is plenty for city/semi rural life.
		
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We have had this example used against myself in the past and their right 

It's not always the way 

So the juggernaut suits my needs for the kids ..

To get an EV version of anything near it I'm looking at 60k minimum . Less in coming years as they get out of car seats 

So we need cheaper and more practical

It's not a one size fit , but it's getting better month by month for sure


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 22, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I’m pretty sure that maximum speed won’t have been fully loaded, or uphill, or into a headwind or all 3; so whilst it can do the legal maximum on paper, real world it probably won’t and it will take some time to get to its its maximum speed, so if used on National speed limit roads it’s probably going to impact other road users.

But as an urban runabout it seems fine and it’s getting nearer to affordable for the masses.
		
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Someone who understands that a top speed of "only 78" isn't going to be 78 in the real World.


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## bobmac (Feb 23, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Someone who understands that a top speed of "only 78" isn't going to be 78 in the real World.

Click to expand...

I understand it all right, I'm just wondering what part of cloud cookoo land you live in where you can drive around at 70, bearing in mind the average city speeds I quoted above.
What do you do in the real world if you are behind a bus or a lorry or other slow moving vehicles in town?
If you don't live in the city, get whatever you want


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## road2ruin (Feb 23, 2022)

So the house electric upgrades have all been completed for the princely sum of £100.

Bulb came and upgrade our meter tails and installed an isolator switch in the meter cupboard and the UK Power Networks arrived to upgrade our master fuse to 100a so we don't trip the electrics every time we charge the car. We're getting a Hypervolt charger installed next week, the installer said that they're starting to turn away business at the moment as there's the late rush for chargers before the grant finishes at the end of March, he simply doesn't have the time to get it all done. He's not going to miss the paperwork involved of getting the grant!!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So the house electric upgrades have all been completed for the princely sum of £100.

Bulb came and upgrade our meter tails and installed an isolator switch in the meter cupboard and the UK Power Networks arrived to upgrade our master fuse to 100a so we don't trip the electrics every time we charge the car. We're getting a Hypervolt charger installed next week, the installer said that they're starting to turn away business at the moment as there's the late rush for chargers before the grant finishes at the end of March, he simply doesn't have the time to get it all done. He's not going to miss the paperwork involved of getting the grant!!
		
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Any reason you went with them? Podpoint and zappi are smart chargers so if the house pulls too much when your charging the car it throttles the car down to keep it under the fuse (60a fuse for me) 

Then again £100 for upgrade? I may have to look into .. 

I monitor my electric on my phone and most I've ever pulled (including charging) is 45amp


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 23, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I understand it all right, I'm just wondering what part of cloud cookoo land you live in where you can drive around at 70, bearing in mind the average city speeds I quoted above.
What do you do in the real world if you are behind a bus or a lorry or other slow moving vehicles in town?
If you don't live in the city, get whatever you want
		
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Of course you well know I’m not talking about doing those speeds around towns. It’s about the overtaking ability of something that is obviously not that well powered especially if loaded up.
My wife had a Yaris hybrid, that whilst very cheap to run, made her so nervous if she had to overtake anything as it was so underpowered when out on the modern roads dealing with modern traffic.


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## road2ruin (Feb 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Any reason you went with them? Podpoint and zappi are smart chargers so if the house pulls too much when your charging the car it throttles the car down to keep it under the fuse (60a fuse for me)

Then again £100 for upgrade? I may have to look into ..

I monitor my electric on my phone and most I've ever pulled (including charging) is 45amp
		
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The main reason for going with them was that our regular electrician recommended them and installs loads of them. We looked at Podpoint, Zappi and Hypervolt and they all looked very good, I'd imagine we'd have been happy with whichever we'd have chosen as the reviews are all very positive, in the end it was purely down to the recommendation. We decided we might as well upgrade the master fuse given the costs involved as it gives us an element of future proofing the property and seeing as we had other electric jobs being done and our electrician was upgrading our consumer unit anyway. 

The upgrade cost was from Bulb for them to come and upgrade the meter tails. UK Power Networks do their bit for free as long as it doesn't involve expensive remedial works such as digging up driveways etc!!


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## bobmac (Feb 23, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My wife had a Yaris hybrid, that whilst very cheap to run, made her so nervous if she had to overtake anything as it was so underpowered when out on the modern roads dealing with modern traffic.
		
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Hybrid
I wonder how much faster it would be if didn't have to carry the big lump of 1.5-1.8 engine, clutch and gearbox around


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 23, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Someone who understands that a top speed of "only 78" isn't going to be 78 in the real World.

Click to expand...

Someone who used to have a Honda Jazz in the family; perfectly functional for the reasons it was bought, absolutely devoid of any sort of driving pleasure and an utter pain on A roads and Motorways. Absolutely fine around town and for carting the old gits about but if we were going anywhere that involved the National speed limit it was the Subaru every time.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Someone who used to have a Honda Jazz in the family; perfectly functional for the reasons it was bought, absolutely devoid of any sort of driving pleasure and an utter pain on A roads and Motorways. Absolutely fine around town and for carting the old gits about but if we were going anywhere that involved the National speed limit it was the Subaru every time.
		
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The Honda Jazz, usually in metallic blue rinse is the car most likely to be doing 40mph no matter what the actual speed limit or conditions.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The main reason for going with them was that our regular electrician recommended them and installs loads of them. We looked at Podpoint, Zappi and Hypervolt and they all looked very good, I'd imagine we'd have been happy with whichever we'd have chosen as the reviews are all very positive, in the end it was purely down to the recommendation. We decided we might as well upgrade the master fuse given the costs involved as it gives us an element of future proofing the property and seeing as we had other electric jobs being done and our electrician was upgrading our consumer unit anyway.

The upgrade cost was from Bulb for them to come and upgrade the meter tails. UK Power Networks do their bit for free as long as it doesn't involve expensive remedial works such as digging up driveways etc!!
		
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Makes a lot of sense, I really want to upgrade our fuse . However we are looped supply with next door so think it's dig up our shared drive to unloop it. Prob cost a bit ATM when I've kept a close eye on our amps 

At 01:30 car comes on to charge , tumble and washing go on (or just tumble) dishwasher on and the dehumidifier in kitchen , pulls 45 amp max 

Even have a bit of play for when the powerwall arrives and pulls max 14.5

So really would only just touch the fuse but then the car would slow slightly if need be 

Will defo need to upgrade if get a heat pump

All good tho because majority of usage would be below the 20 amp constant output powerwall can put out (up to 29amp for short bursts)


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2022)

No, but I have just bought my last petrol car.
It has 6 gears.
Not sure what to do with that nest of vipers.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 23, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Hybrid
I wonder how much faster it would be if didn't have to carry the big lump of 1.5-1.8 engine, clutch and gearbox around
		
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It's an Atkinson cycle engine, not Otto.


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## road2ruin (Mar 10, 2022)

Had my charger installed yesterday so all good on that front. 

Just had a message from Hyundai that the car that was originally Jan, then March, then June/July is now more likely for Sept/Oct. I know in the grand scheme of things it's not the end of the world however I was hoping to get it before we reach that point.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Had my charger installed yesterday so all good on that front.

Just had a message from Hyundai that the car that was originally Jan, then March, then June/July is now more likely for Sept/Oct. I know in the grand scheme of things it's not the end of the world however I was hoping to get it before we reach that point.
		
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That's a shame, especially with the price of fuel it would have been ideal to get sooner


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## spongebob59 (Mar 11, 2022)

Bike looks nice

https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/what-might-hondas-partnership-sony-mean-two-wheel-fans


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2022)

This looks like fun  
FF to 3 mins to miss the waffle


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Bike looks nice

https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/what-might-hondas-partnership-sony-mean-two-wheel-fans

Click to expand...

Christ, that's hideous.


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## larmen (Mar 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Christ, that's hideous. 

Click to expand...

It looks like a transformer that got stuck mid change.

The Niu RQi is supposed to be released later this year. But I might be a Niu fanboy.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2022)

larmen said:



			It looks like a transformer that got stuck mid change.

The Niu RQi is supposed to be released later this year. But I might be a Niu fanboy.
		
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Triumph seem to have got it right; 

https://www.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-3


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The latest figures I could find show that there are 400k Electric vehicles in the UK and 750k Plug in hybrids. This compares to around 12 million ICE cars. That would fit with the allocation in supermarkets of around 1 in 100 vehicles being electric and providing 1 charging point for each 100 spaces. I would expect that number to increase with the increase in electric cars on the road and probably even faster if they start charging and can make money from them.
		
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 I think the issue though is time. Each normal space might be filled for as little as a few minutes if just popping in for a few items whereas a charging point is going to be occupied for a lot longer especially if the EV owner doesn't have the option to charge at home.


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/new-cars/2022-02/dacia-spring-electric-price-specs-and-release-date/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter 21 Feb 2022&utm_content=Newsletter 21 Feb 2022+CID_6a58c1e7fc06fbd798686ddaae3066fe&utm_source=campaign monitor&utm_term=Read more#

Click to expand...

I really don't think I could live with 78mph top speed 😳


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## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I really don't think I could live with 78mph top speed 😳
		
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I don't mind a 78mph top speed as long as it can get to that speed without strain.  Any vehicle with a low top speed is usually struggling well below that.  
I don't go at 78mph at any time on public roads.  I need my licence for my job.


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I really don't think I could live with 78mph top speed 😳
		
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Don't buy one then.


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Don't buy one then.
		
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Wish I'd thought of that.


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## cliveb (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I really don't think I could live with 78mph top speed 😳
		
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It's a little city runaround with a meagre range. It's not intended for motorway or A-road journeys. Even a 60mph top speed, let alone 78, would be fine for the intended usage.


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

cliveb said:



			It's a little city runaround with a meagre range. It's not intended for motorway or A-road journeys. Even a 60mph top speed, let alone 78, would be fine for the intended usage.
		
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That may be so but we all know they will be driven on dual carriageways and motorways. I see quite a few Smart cars on the motorway.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Sorry how remiss of me to get the price wrong. Did you see that my post said 'from around'? Still, nice pedantry on your part.
For the record  the cheapest new car on sale in the UK in 2021 was the Dacia Sandero starting at £7995. I've seen lots of those on the road.
		
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This is one my personal favs

Moan EVs aren't cheap enough . Find cheapest ice car on market and use as example even if they would never buy one themselves

Then the same company comes out with a cheap ev 



DaveR said:



			I really don't think I could live with 78mph top speed 😳
		
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Again with a car that would not be bought by everyone 

Maybe those who can't afford the expensive ones would consider them as a good option 

Standard no matter what the situation the same pointless statements will be made 

Just wait for the cars with 500 mile range off a 10 min charge 

Well I drive 501 miles and I don't want to charge in 10 mins.

Ok now it's 1000 miles and 5 min charge 

Well it doesn't come in black.

🙄


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			This is one my personal favs

Moan EVs aren't cheap enough . Find cheapest ice car on market and use as example even if they would never buy one themselves

Then the same company comes out with a cheap ev



Again with a car that would not be bought by everyone

Maybe those who can't afford the expensive ones would consider them as a good option

Standard no matter what the situation the same pointless statements will be made

Just wait for the cars with 500 mile range off a 10 min charge

Well I drive 501 miles and I don't want to charge in 10 mins.

Ok now it's 1000 miles and 5 min charge

Well it doesn't come in black.

🙄
		
Click to expand...

What a pointless response, you just change your argument to suit your agenda. One day the 500 mile car with a 20 min charge and a price of £25k will be available and this whole discussion will be pointless but that day is a long way off and as it stands a decent EV (comparable quality wise to affordable ICE cars) is still out of reach for a lot of people.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What a pointless response, you just change your argument to suit your agenda. One day the 500 mile car with a 20 min charge and a price of £25k will be available and this whole discussion will be pointless but that day is a long way off and as it stands a decent EV (comparable quality wise to affordable ICE cars) is still out of reach for a lot of people.
		
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It's also not out of reach of a lot of people. A lot of people come up with excuses just because they don't want one

A lot of people can't stand change and believe everything should fit exactly what they want rather than make small adjustments 

And a lot of people are just selfish 

Pick which one you fit in


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's also not out of reach of a lot of people. A lot of people come up with excuses just because they don't want one

A lot of people can't stand change and believe everything should fit exactly what they want rather than make small adjustments

And a lot of people are just selfish

Pick which one you fit in
		
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What total rubbish. I would love an EV but to get something of the same quality, performance and convenience to the ICE I currently drive I would have to fork out well over £50k which I can't afford


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What total rubbish. I would love an EV but to get something of the same quality, performance and convenience to the ICE I currently drive I would have to fork out well over £50k which I can't afford 

Click to expand...

Ofc you would love one

You bang on enough how rubbish they are 

We get it

They don't suit you

Yawn .


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## DanFST (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's also not out of reach of a lot of people. A lot of people come up with excuses just because they don't want one

A lot of people can't stand change and believe everything should fit exactly what they want rather than make small adjustments

And a lot of people are just selfish

Pick which one you fit in
		
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Sorry, Why am I selfish because I don't have an EV? Or why should I have to not buy exactly what I want?


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ofc you would love one

You bang on enough how rubbish they are

We get it

They don't suit you

Yawn .
		
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Maybe you should check back before spouting rubbish. My stance is I'm in favour of EV's but right now the price and infrastructure just isn't there to support my needs. Just because they work for you doesn't mean they work for everyone. I've got 3 competitions between next week and mid May that involve round trips of 400+, 300 and 500 miles, I don't want the hassle of having to stop to find chargers.


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2022)

Just for future reference......
We know the charging infrastructure isn't there yet
We know new EVs are still to expensive for some
We know the range isn't enough for some
We know the charging isn't fast enough
We know not everyone can charge at home
We know not all chargers work.

But be assured that many people are working to improve these issues and while EVs may not suit everyone at the moment, things are improving and faster than many think.
And if you don't want an EV wait till 2029 and buy a brand new ICE car and keep it for 20 years


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Sorry, Why am I selfish because I don't have an EV? Or why should I have to not buy exactly what I want?
		
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I'm afraid it is a tiny bit selfish. 

If people can afford them and they fit their lifestyle they should buy them to simply do their bit for the planet. That's factual 

So your reason to get "what you want" is yes selfish because you want to be able to burn fuel for enjoyment.

It's not a popular thing but it's true.

This should have happened years ago. Cars forced to be more economical and not sell.complete gas burners .

Didn't you post a few weeks ago about ulez? So your car doesn't meet that's very low standards? Which is remarkable. That should have been addressed years ago 

I get people can't afford things. But those who can afford and choose not to because they don't want it. It is a tiny bit selfish because it's a choice not to do something that's morally right.

I'll throw myself under the bus. I could get the train to work. But to save an hour a day I drive. Yes it's ev so it's not much difference but surely all the tyre particles, the traffic I cause adds to pollution


So yes that's a selfish decision but I've decided that for selfish reasons to make My life better 

So I hope that clears up why all choices about something that's for you and not for others is selfish


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm afraid it is a tiny bit selfish.

If people can afford them and they fit their lifestyle they should buy them to simply do their bit for the planet. That's factual

So your reason to get "what you want" is yes selfish because you want to be able to burn fuel for enjoyment.

It's not a popular thing but it's true.

This should have happened years ago. Cars forced to be more economical and not sell.complete gas burners .

Didn't you post a few weeks ago about ulez? So your car doesn't meet that's very low standards? Which is remarkable. That should have been addressed years ago

I get people can't afford things. But those who can afford and choose not to because they don't want it. It is a tiny bit selfish because it's a choice not to do something that's morally right.

I'll throw myself under the bus. I could get the train to work. But to save an hour a day I drive. Yes it's ev so it's not much difference but surely all the tyre particles, the traffic I cause adds to pollution


So yes that's a selfish decision but I've decided that for selfish reasons to make My life better

So I hope that clears up why all choices about something that's for you and not for others is selfish
		
Click to expand...

Do you lie down in the street blocking traffic?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Do you lie down in the street blocking traffic?
		
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Their methods may be wrong but their message is 100% correct.

Now that big bad Russia has played up people have realised oh wait we could do with insulation and not using so much gas from them


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## DanFST (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm afraid it is a tiny bit selfish.

If people can afford them and they fit their lifestyle they should buy them to simply do their bit for the planet. That's factual

So your reason to get "what you want" is yes selfish because you want to be able to burn fuel for enjoyment.

Didn't you post a few weeks ago about ulez? So your car doesn't meet that's very low standards? Which is remarkable. That should have been addressed years ago
		
Click to expand...


I have a 5.0 V8 Mustang. Of course it isn't going to meet ULEZ. And I'm happy to pay to enter London. But paying via the app is a pain. Because of the extension outwards there is no point me leaving my car at Stratford anymore and getting the tube to Central, I've already paid. So i'll sit idling in traffic most of the way there. 

I'm taxed heavily for the privilege. over £3.4k in road tax for the first 3 years of ownership, Plus around 85p per litre of fuel in a 5.0 V8, More so than almost any country for the same thing. There's way more than enough to offset my emissions, if those who decided wanted to. 

I will say, calling people selfish is not the way to get them onside. Bearing in mind I'd be willing to bet that I do less damage to the planet then you per year even with my motor, but I don't preach about it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I have a 5.0 V8 Mustang. Of course it isn't going to meet ULEZ. And I'm happy to pay to enter London. But paying via the app is a pain. Because of the extension outwards there is no point me leaving my car at Stratford anymore and getting the tube to Central, I've already paid. So i'll sit idling in traffic most of the way there.

I'm taxed heavily for the privilege. over £3.4k in road tax for the first 3 years of ownership, Plus around 85p per litre of fuel in a 5.0 V8, More so than almost any country for the same thing. There's way more than enough to offset my emissions, if those who decided wanted to.

I will say, calling people selfish is not the way to get them onside. Bearing in mind I'd be willing to bet that I do less damage to the planet then you per year even with my motor, but I don't preach about it.
		
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I've given up getting anyone onside.

People don't care simply until they are forced to care.

Paying extra tax doesn't solve pollution when those who can afford it would rather pay extra for what they want.

It's simple, the world is a selfish place. No good deed or decision doesn't have one kind of selfish aspect in one way or another.

It's a sad fact of life.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 16, 2022)




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## PNWokingham (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's also not out of reach of a lot of people. A lot of people come up with excuses just because they don't want one

A lot of people can't stand change and believe everything should fit exactly what they want rather than make small adjustments

And a lot of people are just selfish

Pick which one you fit in
		
Click to expand...

what a pathetic pile of stinking manure-flavoured virtue signalling. How you can wright that shiiite with a straight face is beyond me!


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## Leftitshort (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've given up getting anyone onside.

People don't care simply until they are forced to care.

Paying extra tax doesn't solve pollution when those who can afford it would rather pay extra for what they want.

It's simple, the world is a selfish place. No good deed or decision doesn't have one kind of selfish aspect in one way or another.

It's a sad fact of life.
		
Click to expand...

I may have missed an update but together with your E corsa don’t you have a ICE suv?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			what a pathetic pile of stinking manure-flavoured virtue signalling. How you can wright that shiiite with a straight face is beyond me!
		
Click to expand...

Ah the anti woke bingo is complete 

Why don't you bore off to the daily mail comment section where you belong.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I may have missed an update but together with your E corsa don’t you have a ICE suv?
		
Click to expand...

Yep (mpv) , for entirely selfish reasons,  I'll be getting another ev when the Corsa is up (bigger one) which we will use as much as possible 

11000 miles ev last year 3000 mpv


Will be looking to lower that 3000 lower and lower until it can be scrapped and run 2 EVs.


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## DanFST (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yep (mpv) , for entirely selfish reasons,  I'll be getting another ev when the Corsa is up (bigger one) which we will use as much as possible

11000 miles ev last year 3000 mpv
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, My world killing Mustang has 5k in 3 years. Public transport for everything else, No flights in 3 years either. Don't preach what you aren't actually doing. You look silly.

I'm out


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've given up getting anyone onside.

People don't care simply until they are forced to care.

Paying extra tax doesn't solve pollution when those who can afford it would rather pay extra for what they want.

It's simple, the world is a selfish place. No good deed or decision doesn't have one kind of selfish aspect in one way or another.

It's a sad fact of life.
		
Click to expand...

You said above that shortening your commute is selfish. 

In a few years time, ask your kids if they enjoyed the extra time with their dad. 

It's absolutely not selfish. Thinking in such extremes is why you are facing so much fight back on here.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Yeah, My world killing Mustang has 5k in 3 years. Public transport for everything else, No flights in 3 years either. Don't preach what you aren't actually doing. You look silly.

I'm out 

Click to expand...

That's the thing you clearly don't read what I have wrote because you can't see the wood for the trees.

Driving your car is a selfish choice yes. That's factual

Same as me driving the mpv is selfish

I said the world is full of selfish decisions

I never said I wasn't selfish I even said that in my post

Seriously .. we are making the same point. You use public transport and that is great

However if you can afford to run an EV and it fits your style you should really try to

But not until your car is needing replacing otherwise it's a waste .. which is another problem.

But say in 5 years you go I want a new car let's go for a gas gusler just because I want it.. yes that's selfish

Please understand the difference between selfish decisions and not caring about them

Also 5000 miles in 3 years as 1 person in a car is more pollution than 3000 in 1 year for 5 people...

Anywhere that's 3 of us or less is done by EV or walking. So much less .


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## karlcole (Mar 16, 2022)

Probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread but I’m a big Tesla fan. Purchased one in Oct last year and its been brilliant. Saving a fortune over fuel aswell.


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## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2022)

I think this is all getting a bit silly now.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I think this is all getting a bit silly now.
		
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I'll hold my hands up .. yes I take it to extremes but I the thread bingo from those who have zero interest but love to bash anything is blooming boring and the same all the darn time 

If you don't want one. Good for you. Bore off somewhere else ..

I don't have any interest in cricket I don't go reading through the thread daily to say I really don't enjoy cricket ..


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## PNWokingham (Mar 16, 2022)

and the


pauljames87 said:



			I'll hold my hands up .. yes I take it to extremes but I the thread bingo from those who have zero interest but love to bash anything is blooming boring and the same all the darn time

If you don't want one. Good for you. Bore off somewhere else ..

I don't have any interest in cricket I don't go reading through the thread daily to say I really don't enjoy cricket ..
		
Click to expand...

ignoring your irrelevant deflections in response to my post, just grow up and stop the lecturring and virtue signalling (yes - it is what you are doing) by labelling everyone who does not toe your eveangelical preaching on electric and climate is selfish. And please take some of your advice and "bore off smewhere else"


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and the


ignoring your irrelevant deflections in response to my post, just grow up and stop the lecturring and virtue signalling (yes - it is what you are doing) by labelling everyone who does not toe your eveangelical preaching on electric and climate is selfish. And please take some of your advice and "bore off smewhere else"
		
Click to expand...

Mayb if we werent heading for a climate Emergancy it wouldn't matter eh?. Or is that too woke for you to understand


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## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2022)

At the end of the day, the thread is called "Would you buy an electric car?".  
It does not say why you must/must not buy an electric car.  To discuss this, both sides of the argument have to be given their voice.  
It's a forum, it's a debate, and that can be done without throwing insults around.  
If people don't agree with you, whichever side you are on, used reasoned argument.  
Me?  I drive a hybrid.  Why?  Because it's a company car and in terms of tax benefits, it was an absolute no-brainer.  
For my missus, when she changes her car, I am going to go for a small electric as she rarely uses her current one and does not do large mileages. 
For information.  She is the one who loves the big gas guzzlers.  
Before her current Mini, her last four cars were (from most recent): 

Citroën C6 
MG ZT-T
Land Rover Discovery
Mitsubishi Shogun
Isuzu Trooper
It's hard work trying to keep her away from them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I think this is all getting a bit silly now.
		
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Think it got silly a long time ago

Many would have no issues getting a electric car - I would love one , but it’s not cost affective for me right now and can’t give me what my ice car can - no doubt it will do in future but people can’t point fingers at others when

1. they also have a petrol guzzler sat on the drive

2. Currently all that electricity is being being created by stations providing significant amount of pollution

It won’t be long until the leccy cars catch up and they become a lot more common but a lot of hurdles to get over first

Won’t ever help with people pointing fingers at others and insulting them


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## PNWokingham (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Mayb if we werent heading for a climate Emergancy it wouldn't matter eh?. Or is that too woke for you to understand
		
Click to expand...

i have never said anything dismissive about climate change. I have never not acknowledged that we are going electric. But, as many have said till they are blue in the face, people will adopt electic when it suits them, not because evalangelists try and shame them into doing it if it does not make sense for them. get off your high horse and understand that there are many different issues around what people drive and why. And being selfish does not figure on that list - cost, pragmatism, range, infrastructure, lifestyle etc etc etc.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			At the end of the day, the thread is called "Would you buy an electric car?".
It does not say why you must/must not buy an electric car.  To discuss this, both sides of the argument have to be given their voice.
It's a forum, it's a debate, and that can be done without throwing insults around.
If people don't agree with you, whichever side you are on, used reasoned argument.
Me?  I drive a hybrid.  Why?  Because it's a company car and in terms of tax benefits, it was an absolute no-brainer.
For my missus, when she changes her car, I am going to go for a small electric as she rarely uses her current one and does not do large mileages.
For information.  She is the one who loves the big gas guzzlers.
Before her current Mini, her last four cars were (from most recent):

Citroën C6
MG ZT-T
Land Rover Discovery
Mitsubishi Shogun
Isuzu Trooper
It's hard work trying to keep her away from them.
		
Click to expand...

However once you have said no that's your piece fair enough.

It's the constant over and over.. they are rubbish.. they are x y and z all based on outdated knowledge of one article they read once.

There's so much misunderstanding of all points made because people either are too pig headed to read what's written or refuse to accept facts.

Like the constant referring back by short sighted people about my ownership of an mpv aswell as electric .. like it's some sort of win for them lol.. yep I'll throw out my mpv which is ulez compliant.. gets 50mpg so much more than the proper gas guzzler and fits 3 kids safely just for the sake of it..

Nobody is saying go out tomorrow and buy one. It's the constant rubbish that their not good enough, without any compromise from the other side . 

In an ideal world this would have been addressed years ago and cars under say 40mpg would have been banned from even being produced. Rather than burning more fossil fuels and causing problems why not work on making what we have last?

We have driving for pleasure as a thing.. which whilst fun is it really what we should promote ..

Just like when we ban fossil fuel cars from being made but try and get F1 in London.. what about pollution then? Oh who cares

We are half effort at everything 

That's the entire world.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i have never said anything dismissive about climate change. I have never not acknowledged that we are going electric. But, as many have said till they are blue in the face, people will adopt electic when it suits them, not because evalangelists try and shame them into doing it if it does not make sense for them. get off your high horse and understand that there are many different issues around what people drive and why. And being selfish does not figure on that list - cost, pragmatism, range, infrastructure, lifestyle etc etc etc.
		
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If you think being selfish doesn't appear on the list you are either 

Naive
Thick 
Or got your head in the sand ..

It may not be the main issue but it is definitely one of the issues.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 16, 2022)

Ignoring all the argueing, as I have said ages ago.....no I wouldnt have one, at least not for many years yet simply because I don't consider EV in the current format the way forward. Electrically powered motion by other generating forms standalone within the vehicle, yes.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If you think being selfish doesn't appear on the list you are either

Naive
Thick
Or got your head in the sand ..

It may not be the main issue but it is definitely one of the issues.
		
Click to expand...

there is no hope with you. You are a moron who does not listen. I am not naive and certainly not thick but i think you just might be. Electric cars are great for many people. Not for others. Over the years the rationale for many not wanting them now will shrink and more will change. Simple. I am happy for people who love electric cars and buy them, why do you have to be judgemental about those who do not. That is stupid!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 16, 2022)

Some people getting far too precious on this thread. 

Let’s take a break and calm down please


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			However once you have said no that's your piece fair enough.

It's the constant over and over.. they are rubbish.. they are x y and z all based on outdated knowledge of one article they read once.

There's so much misunderstanding of all points made because people either are too pig headed to read what's written or refuse to accept facts.

Like the constant referring back by short sighted people about my ownership of an mpv aswell as electric .. like it's some sort of win for them lol.. yep I'll throw out my mpv which is ulez compliant.. gets 50mpg so much more than the proper gas guzzler and fits 3 kids safely just for the sake of it..

Nobody is saying go out tomorrow and buy one. It's the constant rubbish that their not good enough, without any compromise from the other side .

In an ideal world this would have been addressed years ago and cars under say 40mpg would have been banned from even being produced. Rather than burning more fossil fuels and causing problems why not work on making what we have last?

We have driving for pleasure as a thing.. which whilst fun is it really what we should promote ..

Just like when we ban fossil fuel cars from being made but try and get F1 in London.. what about pollution then? Oh who cares

We are half effort at everything

That's the entire world.
		
Click to expand...

It would help if you read what people post. I can't recall anyone saying they are rubbish. The arguments are based around range, charging infrastructure, purchase price etc.....not quality.


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			One person getting far too precious on this thread.

Let’s take a break and calm down please
		
Click to expand...

FTFY


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What a pointless response, you just change your argument to suit your agenda. One day the 500 mile car with a 20 min charge and a price of £25k will be available and this whole discussion will be pointless but that day is a long way off and as it stands a decent EV (comparable quality wise to affordable ICE cars) is still out of reach for a lot of people.
		
Click to expand...

And yet it's not about quality?


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			And yet it's not about quality?
		
Click to expand...

Seriously, are you thick or something? Read what I posted! I used the word comparable. All the money in EVs is in the batteries, to get a car of comparable quality (interior, toys, options etc) to what I drive now I would have to pay well over £50k. I didn't say they are poor quality, I said something similar to mine would cost a lot more


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Seriously, are you thick or something? Read what I posted! I used the word comparable. All the money in EVs is in the batteries, to get a car of comparable quality to what I drive now I would have to pay well over £50k. I didn't say they are poor quality, I said to something similar to mine would cost a lot more 

Click to expand...

Which puts you in unwilling to make compromise camp.

Your choice


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## DaveR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which puts you in unwilling to make compromise camp.

Your choice
		
Click to expand...

Bloody right it's my choice if I choose to drive a nice car.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 16, 2022)

Please respect other members opinions, agree to disagree etc etc

Otherwise a Fraggering awaits


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## Captainron (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which puts you in unwilling to make compromise camp.

Your choice
		
Click to expand...

I am in this camp too. Don’t suit my needs without having to make massive changes to my driving habits. Not interested.


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## JamesR (Mar 16, 2022)

I’m not buying an electric car!

I like manual transmission, petrol engine cars

My Golf GTI was a fantastic car, the Beemer is good too

I want a vehicle where the engine lasts more than 10 years
I’ll let others find the problems, and have them sorted before I get one


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I’m not buying an electric car!

I like manual transmission, petrol engine cars

My Golf GTI was a fantastic car, the Beemer is good too

I want a vehicle where the engine lasts more than 10 years
I’ll let others find the problems, and have them sorted before I get one
		
Click to expand...

https://www.lifewire.com/do-evs-las...intenance is limited,last upwards of 20 years.

The engines last upwards of 20 years. Batteries is what you are confusing it with.


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## AliMc (Mar 16, 2022)

Jeez calm down folks, to lighten the mood a little I'll relay a wee conversation i heard recently between two members of my golfing group, one the owner of a new Merc convertible (for fun we will call him Mr Staid) and the other the owner of a Tesla 3 (we can call him Mr Righteous)
I can't remember the exact figures but it won't matter as it's only for FUN

Tesla: nice car, what did it cost ?
Merc: no idea, I bought two, probably around £60k
Tesla: mine was about £48k
Merc: ok
Tesla: Road Tax ?
Merc: £30
Tesla: £0 for mine 
Merc: fair enough 
Tesla: running costs (per mile)
Merc: no idea and no interest tbh
Tesla: 0 - 60 mph
Merc: no idea and don't care tbh, will guess 5 secs
Tesla: 3 secs for mine

Tesla: so really everything about the Tesla is better 
Merc: except that your's looks sh*t

Happy to take an infraction, things are getting a bit too heated for me on here !


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## JamesR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.lifewire.com/do-evs-last-as-long-as-gasoline-cars-5202392#:~:text=Electric motor maintenance is limited,last upwards of 20 years.

The engines last upwards of 20 years. Batteries is what you are confusing it with.
		
Click to expand...

The battery powers the car, that’s the engine in my book


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			The battery powers the car, that’s the engine in my book
		
Click to expand...

Just like a fuel tank is an engine then i guess


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## JamesR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Just like a fuel tank is an engine then i guess
		
Click to expand...

Not really


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Not really
		
Click to expand...

Both store and power the car no?

And neither are an engine..

So in your book of confusing items of a car they surely are the same?


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## JamesR (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Both store and power the car no?

And neither are an engine..

So in your book of confusing items of a car they surely are the same?
		
Click to expand...

Don’t worry about trying to convince me I’m wrong!
I’m not buying an Electric Car.
The batteries don’t last long enough, and I won’t buy a car that needs a major part replacing after a few years.

Also, they look shite! Why can’t they design attractive Electric cars, rather than making them look like space age junk?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

Please make it stop - there is no need to counter every single person who gives a very valid reason why they are making their own personal choice about owning an electric car


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Don’t worry about trying to convince me I’m wrong!
I’m not buying an Electric Car.
The batteries don’t last long enough, and I won’t buy a car that needs a major part replacing after a few years.

Also, they look shite! Why can’t they design attractive Electric cars, rather than making them look like space age junk?
		
Click to expand...

15-20 years.  Would you even own a car that long?

But yes. Agree. They look very spacey, it's like they are trying to be edgy 

The Kia e niro was just like the niro. Looked "normal"

The Kia 6 .. spacey


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2022)

AliMc said:



			Jeez calm down folks, to lighten the mood a little I'll relay a wee conversation i heard recently between two members of my golfing group, one the owner of a new Merc convertible (for fun we will call him Mr Staid) and the other the owner of a Tesla 3 (we can call him Mr Righteous)
I can't remember the exact figures but it won't matter as it's only for FUN

Tesla: nice car, what did it cost ?
Merc: no idea, I bought two, probably around £60k
Tesla: mine was about £48k
Merc: ok
Tesla: Road Tax ?
Merc: £30
Tesla: £0 for mine
Merc: fair enough
Tesla: running costs (per mile)
Merc: no idea and no interest tbh
Tesla: 0 - 60 mph
Merc: no idea and don't care tbh, will guess 5 secs
Tesla: 3 secs for mine

Tesla: so really everything about the Tesla is better
Merc: except that your's looks sh*t

Happy to take an infraction, things are getting a bit too heated for me on here !
		
Click to expand...

I reckon anytime someone gets a Tesla a little bit of Elon Musks personality is added onto the person - strange bunch 😁😂 

That’s a near identical conversation when it comes to drivers as well 😂


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## SteveW86 (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			15-20 years.  Would you even own a car that long?

But yes. Agree. They look very spacey, it's like they are trying to be edgy

The Kia e niro was just like the niro. Looked "normal"

The Kia 6 .. spacey
		
Click to expand...

For someone who has a wife and 3 kids you spend a lot of time on here involved in pointless petty arguments.

Stop winding each other up and just let it go.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 16, 2022)

Thread locked
Infraction given 
Will open it later when calm is restored


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Also, they look shite! Why can’t they design attractive Electric cars, rather than making them look like space age junk?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely.

Now we're talking.....


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## Tashyboy (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree with you completely.

Now we're talking.....
View attachment 41854

Click to expand...

Dribble
Oddly enough I was looking at Carwow for electric cars last week. The reductions looked ok.


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## Canary_Yellow (Mar 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Don’t worry about trying to convince me I’m wrong!
I’m not buying an Electric Car.
The batteries don’t last long enough, and I won’t buy a car that needs a major part replacing after a few years.

Also, they look shite! Why can’t they design attractive Electric cars, rather than making them look like space age junk?
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, they are starting to look good.

The Porsche Tacan, Audi e-Tron, BMW are starting to get there too. I realise there's a bit of personal taste around that though.

For me it's the cost and infrastructure, although mostly the upfront cost. 

I'm not someone that wants to finance a car, I don't like having monthly payments and I like to hang on to them for a while. My current car is nearly 7 years old and I'd be keeping it for a while longer if I didn't need to change it soon for logistical reasons, I'm now looking at a second hand Q7. I'd love to be able to afford an electric car of equivalent size, but I can't, and there's no way on god's green earth I'm driving an MPV.

When it comes down to it, that's probably (not really any probably about it) not the right decision from an environmental perspective. But the alternative still wouldn't be an electric car as it's simply not viable for me - it would be an MPV with a small turbocharged petrol engine. I enjoy driving, I'm sure I'd enjoy driving an electric car, I just can't afford one that meets my needs.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree with you completely.

Now we're talking.....
View attachment 41854

Click to expand...

2022(23) Tesla Roadster?


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## JamesR (Mar 17, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			To be fair, they are starting to look good.

The *Porsche Tacan, Audi e-Tron*, BMW are starting to get there too. I realise there's a bit of personal taste around that though.

For me it's the cost and infrastructure, although mostly the upfront cost.

I'm not someone that wants to finance a car, I don't like having monthly payments and I like to hang on to them for a while. My current car is nearly 7 years old and I'd be keeping it for a while longer if I didn't need to change it soon for logistical reasons, I'm now looking at a second hand Q7. I'd love to be able to afford an electric car of equivalent size, but I can't, and there's no way on god's green earth I'm driving an MPV.

When it comes down to it, that's probably (not really any probably about it) not the right decision from an environmental perspective. But the alternative still wouldn't be an electric car as it's simply not viable for me - it would be an MPV with a small turbocharged petrol engine. I enjoy driving, I'm sure I'd enjoy driving an electric car, I just can't afford one that meets my needs.
		
Click to expand...

Porsche, Audi e-tron etc are not the normal cars that the general public tend to buy en masse.
Most of us will want to replace our family hatchbacks and saloons.


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## JamesR (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree with you completely.

Now we're talking.....
View attachment 41854

Click to expand...

How much?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			How much?
		
Click to expand...

If it's teh Tesla Roadster (not seen that image of it before, only seen side on ones) then it's $50,000...


For the deposit and another $150,000 on top...


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			When it comes down to it, that's probably (not really any probably about it) not the right decision from an environmental perspective. But the alternative still wouldn't be an electric car as it's simply not viable for me - it would be an MPV with a small turbocharged petrol engine. I enjoy driving, I'm sure I'd enjoy driving an electric car, I just can't afford one that meets my needs.
		
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the Skoda Enyaq?


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## JamesR (Mar 17, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If it's teh Tesla Roadster (not seen that image of it before, only seen side on ones) then it's $50,000...


For the deposit and another $150,000 on top...
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was an Aston Martin badge


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			If it's teh Tesla Roadster (not seen that image of it before, only seen side on ones) then it's $50,000...


For the deposit and another $150,000 on top...
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, I fibbed.
Here's the original picture....


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## Canary_Yellow (Mar 17, 2022)

JamesR said:



			Porsche, Audi e-tron etc are not the normal cars that the general public tend to buy en masse.
Most of us will want to replace our family hatchbacks and saloons.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's improving at every level. 

Plenty that just look like their combustion equivalent, particularly in smaller cars, the 208 as an example, the Golf, Mini, loads of them.

The cost argument is compelling, the appearance argument I think is becoming increasingly less compelling.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Apologies, I fibbed.
Here's the original picture....

View attachment 41856

Click to expand...

I never even looked at the badge, it was the light design that made me thing Tesla Roadster. Nice looking from the front, but like the BMW 6 Series, it's like they gave up and went for drinks when they got to the back.


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## Canary_Yellow (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have you looked at the Skoda Enyaq?
		
Click to expand...

Given the size of child seats these days, there are very few cars that can fit three across the second row unfortunately. The q7 can, even things like the XC90 struggle. From a practical perspective, an MPV can't be beaten, I just can't do it....

The Tesla Model X is a very good large family car, but it's tremendously expensive.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I never even looked at the badge, it was the light design that made me thing Tesla Roadster. Nice looking from the front, but like the BMW 6 Series, it's like they gave up and went for drinks when they got to the back.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, it's only going to be ICE drivers who are going to see it from the back  
Just kidding.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 17, 2022)

Talking to an old guy on holiday. His brother works for Bentley. He said the future of cars are hydrogen not electric. How far have we got on that one 😳


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## GreiginFife (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			To be fair, it's only going to be ICE drivers who are going to see it from the back  
Just kidding.
		
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At 200k there’s not many going to see them from any angle 🤪


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## Smiffy (Mar 17, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to an old guy on holiday. His brother works for Bentley. He said the future of cars are hydrogen not electric.
		
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A bit like the VHS v BETAMAX and DVD-HD v BLU-RAY arguments.
Sadly, hydrogen cars will go the same way as BETAMAX and DVD-HD.
Electric cars are the future.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 17, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to an old guy on holiday. His brother works for Bentley. He said the future of cars are hydrogen not electric. How far have we got on that one 😳
		
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Hydrogen would still be electric. Just the hydrogen fuel cell will power the motors rather than a lithium battery.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			At 200k there’s not many going to see them from any angle 🤪
		
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I suppose if you want 250mph and 0-60 in *1.9 secs, *it's going to cost you.
How much was the Bugatti Veryon?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 17, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to an old guy on holiday. His brother works for Bentley. He said the future of cars are hydrogen not electric. How far have we got on that one 😳
		
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Hydrogen ain’t dead yet, not by a long way.
Fully expect to see lorries, busses etc going down this route, but the current infrastructure is rubbish.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2022)

Ending the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030 may not be realistic because the electric vehicle charging network isn’t close to being ready, a government advisory report has warned.

Sir John Armitt, head of the National Infrastructure Commission, said there was a “real risk” to the deadline because of the slow progress of installing new electric chargers.

Drivers will not switch away from fossil fuel cars quickly enough if they are not confident of being able to charge electric vehicles, the commission warned in a report published on Wednesday.

The electric vehicle charging network is “significantly behind where it needs to be” and without more chargers, drivers “will not have the confidence to make the switch to electric vehicles”, the report warns.


“There is not yet a visible core network of rapid chargers across the country, and significantly more publicly available charge points, including on street charge points, will be needed by 2030,” it says.



Estimates suggest that around 280,000 to 480,000 chargers will be needed across the country by 2030 to fulfil demand from drivers. Currently there are around 28,000.


The report also said confusion about how infrastructure projects will be paid for has delayed progress on net zero, including progress towards cleaner freight, heating and transport.

Funding confusion holding up delivery
“Delays to decisions on who pays are now holding up delivering infrastructure, including low carbon heat and energy efficiency. Open and honest conversations, followed by clear decisions, are needed to address this,” it warns.

A new subsidy being launched next month will offer householders £5,000 towards the cost of an electric heat pump in an effort to cut emissions from boilers used in home heating.

But the government has also been urged to improve funding for insulation and energy efficiency, which would cut costs for households as the cost of living crisis bites as well as reducing emissions.

Sir John added: “At a time of significant global volatility alongside concerns about rising living costs, we appreciate that sticking to a long-term strategy is not easy.  


“But it is the only way to address the stubbornly difficult problems that will not become any easier or cheaper to solve by delaying action – and the quicker we tackle them, the quicker society and our environment will reap the benefits.”

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: “We are providing over £1.3 billion to support the continued roll-out of charge points at homes, businesses and on residential streets.

“Our upcoming EV Infrastructure Strategy will soon be published, which will set out our vision to create a world-leading charging infrastructure network across the UK.”


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## Robster59 (Mar 17, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to an old guy on holiday. His brother works for Bentley. He said the future of cars are hydrogen not electric. How far have we got on that one 😳
		
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The problem is the infrastructure.  Petrol and diesel are relatively easy to transport.  Hydrogen, less so.  I can see hydrogen being used for buses and trucks where the vehicle returns to its depot for topping up every night (our entire fleet will convert to hydrogen), but I think hydrogen powered cars for general use in cars is a long way off.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			The problem is the infrastructure.  Petrol and diesel are relatively easy to transport.  Hydrogen, less so.  I can see hydrogen being used for buses and trucks where the vehicle returns to its depot for topping up every night (our entire fleet will convert to hydrogen), but I think hydrogen powered cars for general use in cars is a long way off.
		
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Hydrogen may well be the way forward but don't you need electricity to generate it? 🤔


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## Robster59 (Mar 17, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Hydrogen may well be the way forward, but don't you need electricity to generate it? 🤔
		
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Yes, but our company is moving to take its energy from renewables.  Nothing is ever really "green", but you can make strides to make it greener.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 17, 2022)

This is more like it. 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1978647


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 17, 2022)

Canary_Yellow said:



			I think it's improving at every level.

Plenty that just look like their combustion equivalent, particularly in smaller cars, the 208 as an example, the Golf, Mini, loads of them.

*The cost argument is compelling*, the appearance argument I think is becoming increasingly less compelling.
		
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As is the capability argument.  I often do a day trip to Princes in the winter.  In the ICE, uses a quarter of a tank, tops.  In an electric, whilst on paper it has the range, when you're running lights & heating I couldn't trust the real world range on a lot of vehicles to get me there & back without charging on arrival; anyone seen a charger down there?  And the more people that go electric, the more of an issue it will become.

As the report quoted above alludes to, I don't think this has been fully thought through in terms of infrastructure.

Is there a reason why the charging unit isn't built into the car, so that the car only needs plugging into the mains?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Apologies, I fibbed.
Here's the original picture....

View attachment 41856

Click to expand...

Does look a stunning car - there will be some me thing missing for me that is always there for a sports car - you go through the tunnel , wind your window down , put on the throttle and then hear it roar , it’s spine tingling . That’s one of the thrills of a sports car like that - it looks stunning though

My wife’s car is due to be replaced this year - and we will be looking at Hybrid/Electric as she is just a small commuter 

But for the cost I want to get a bigger one that I can then use for golf trips etc- but we just need to get better infrastructure for charging etc 



PhilTheFragger said:



			Hydrogen ain’t dead yet, not by a long way.
Fully expect to see lorries, busses etc going down this route, but the current infrastructure is rubbish.
		
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It’s the future but I believe it needs a lot of work


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## road2ruin (Mar 17, 2022)

I completely get the argument about infrastructure, with more EV's on the road we need more public charging points especially given there are a large number of people who cannot have a home charger installed. 

For me though the range argument isn't a factor for the vast majority of people who presently have a car. Obviously there are people that drive for work so they're not going to look at EV's, it's just not practical and I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that they are a target market for EV's with the range they presently have. 

However, figures show that in 2019 (pre-pandemic) the average number of miles driven per day was 20, per week 142 and per month 617. If you look at the majority of EV's available today you're easily able to get 200 odd miles from a 'tank' which means for the 'average' driver having an EV would not cause any issues whatsoever. It may mean that for a family holiday to Cornwall one a year that more planning has to go into it however for the other 99% of journeys it's just not a consideration. Again, this is for the average driver so for those of you who travel 250 miles a day, yes, it's not going to work but with the present ranges on EV's it would work. 

The main barrier to entry at the moment is cost especially for those who tend to pay cash, you cannot compare most EV's to their ICE equivalents as the former is, at present, far more expensive for the same(ish) level ICE. 

In other news my EV is now not likely to arrive much before 2023 as some wiring that is usually put together in Ukraine is not, for obvious reasons! Good news is that my present car is still rising in value given the scarcity of cars in the 2nd hand market!


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## PieMan (Mar 17, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But for the cost I want to get a bigger one that I can then use for golf trips etc- but we just need to get better infrastructure for charging etc
		
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Yep, remember big enough for two sets of club, two electric trollies and two overnight bags!!


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

PieMan said:



			Yep, remember big enough for two sets of club, two electric trollies and two overnight bags!! 

Click to expand...

And the pies?....... they can go in the froot.... which makes a change


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## Bdill93 (Mar 17, 2022)

I will 100% be buying an EV as my next car - although I do still have 2 years left on my current finance agreement.

I think I could spend up to £500 a month on one, factoring in the cost of fuel against charges. 

Current car is a Mercedes CLA Shooting Brake (estate) - they dont do an EV of it yet!

What are my options if im after a saloon/ estate in the current market?


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## cliveb (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Apologies, I fibbed.
Here's the original picture....

View attachment 41856

Click to expand...

I did consider querying the styling, as it looks nothing like an Aston Martin.
It seemed very obviously American in looks, and I wondered why Aston had gone to the dark side.
At least you've now cleared up my confusion.
Looks like a Tesla Corvette to me.


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## road2ruin (Mar 17, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			What are my options if im after a saloon/ estate in the current market?
		
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I've presently got an Audi S4 Avant so was looking for something with comparable boot size and my budget was around the £500 mark.

My list was...

Hyundai Ioniq 5 (the one that is on order)
Ford Mustang Mach E (boot was too small)
Skoda Enyaq (bit boring)
Kia EV6 (rear seats were a little snug)
Audi eTron (once you get away from the base model the costs go up v. quickly)
VW ID4

I reckon in 2 years you'll have a load more choice and hopefully won't have to wait over 12 months to get one delivered!


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## cliveb (Mar 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			A bit like the VHS v BETAMAX and DVD-HD v BLU-RAY arguments.
Sadly, hydrogen cars will go the same way as BETAMAX and DVD-HD.
Electric cars are the future.
		
Click to expand...

Hydrogen is a very inefficient way to use electricity.
The losses incurred during electrolysis, transport and fuel cell conversion are quite large.

It does however have two massive advantages over pure EV:
1. Much quicker refueling.
2. No need for huge banks of environmentally unfriendly batteries.

Battery technology is bound to change away from lithium, so maybe #2 isn't such a big deal in the long term.
I remain skeptical that charging infrastructure can ever get to the point where you can top up an EV with 500 miles of range in 5 mins, though.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I've presently got an Audi S4 Avant so was looking for something with comparable boot size and my budget was around the £500 mark.

My list was...

*Hyundai Ioniq 5 (the one that is on order)*
Ford Mustang Mach E (boot was too small)
Skoda Enyaq (bit boring)
Kia EV6 (rear seats were a little snug)
Audi eTron (once you get away from the base model the costs go up v. quickly)
VW ID4

I reckon in 2 years you'll have a load more choice and hopefully won't have to wait over 12 months to get one delivered!
		
Click to expand...

Very futuristic looking! Its like something out of the film TRON!

I will keep looking, and I hope you're right about shorter waiting times!


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Hydrogen is a very inefficient way to use electricity.
The losses incurred during electrolysis, transport and fuel cell conversion are quite large.

It does however have two massive advantages over pure EV:
*1. Much quicker refueling.*
2. No need for huge banks of environmentally unfriendly batteries.
		
Click to expand...

As long as you live near one of the 14 garages in the UK that sell hydrogen.



cliveb said:



			I remain skeptical that charging infrastructure can ever get to the point where you can top up an EV with 500 miles of range in 5 mins, though.
		
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How often do you need to drive 500 miles without stopping?


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## Smiffy (Mar 17, 2022)

If petrol/diesel was suddenly rationed to 20 litres each visit, most of us would still manage our lives. That's about 200 miles that is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			If petrol/diesel was suddenly rationed to 20 litres each visit, most of us would still manage our lives. That's about 200 miles that is.
		
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Thats effectively 1 days useage in my van.....


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## road2ruin (Mar 17, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Thats effectively 1 days useage in my van.....
		
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To be fair, you're not 'most' people. As I said above, EV's would be of no interest to people like you as the range and charging capabilities just aren't there. For the 'normal' driver though, they'd not notice any difference especially if they're able to have a charging point installed at home.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair, you're not 'most' people. As I said above, EV's would be of no interest to people like you as the range and charging capabilities just aren't there. For the 'normal' driver though, they'd not notice any difference especially if they're able to have a charging point installed at home.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps not, but I did look at E vans a while back, and TBH the real world range is just pitiful once you switch on the heating/air con, heated seats, lights and load the thing up.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps not, but I did look at E vans a while back, and TBH the real world range is just pitiful once you switch on the heating/air con, heated seats, lights and load the thing up.
		
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Yes, we know


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## road2ruin (Mar 17, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps not, but I did look at E vans a while back, and TBH the real world range is just pitiful once you switch on the heating/air con, heated seats, lights and load the thing up.
		
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Again, depends on mileage. The motor I have on order will happily do 240 odd miles during the winter months with heating, lights and everything else switched on. My present (ICE) car does 230 odd so for me it's only the occasional, very long, journey that I will have to change the way I plan.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Yes, we know
		
Click to expand...

What do you know?


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## Smiffy (Mar 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Again, depends on mileage. The motor I have on order will happily do 240 odd miles during the winter months with heating, lights and everything else switched on. My present (ICE) car does 230 odd so for me it's only the occasional, very long, journey that I will have to change the way I plan.
		
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There is a big, big difference between the range of an electric car and van. Some of the vans are absolutely dire.


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## cliveb (Mar 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			As long as you live near one of the 14 garages in the UK that sell hydrogen.
		
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Come on, Bob. You must know I was talking about principles, not the current situation.
And I'm really not proposing that hydrogen is better than EV. For general day-to-day use, an EV makes a lot of sense. The main thing that remains a problem for me is when you need to do a long journey.


bobmac said:



			How often do you need to drive 500 miles without stopping?
		
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Not often. But as an example, when we drive to the Alps for skiing. We swap over driving every 2 hours and every 300/400 miles we fill up, which takes about 5/10 mins. Total journey generally about 700 miles and takes about 12 hours including tunnel crossing. I'd really rather not add several more hours waiting for EV charging.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			What do you know?
		
Click to expand...

We know everything you wrote. Although why you would have the heating on, the heating seats on AND the air con on at the same time is puzzling.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			We know everything you wrote. Although why you would have the heating on, the heating seats on AND the air con on at the same time is puzzling.
		
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I run with the aircon on 12 months of the year. In summer it runs cold, winter it runs warm. It is recommended. In winter I'll have the heated seats on. 

I'm not understanding your point there.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I run with the aircon on 12 months of the year. In summer it runs cold, winter it runs warm. It is recommended. In winter I'll have the heated seats on.

I'm not understanding your point there.
		
Click to expand...

I think there is some confusion between air conditioning and cooling. It’s a common misconception.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Hydrogen may well be the way forward but don't you need electricity to generate it? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

There are already plans to generate hydrogen from wind turbines. There's a demo project off Aberdeen to retrofit a wind turbine so that during the day when demand is higher it will feed in to the grid. At night when demand is lower it will switch to generating hydrogen from sea water. There are some buses in Aberdeen already running on hydrogen, although not from the wind turbine source.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I run with the aircon on 12 months of the year. In summer it runs cold, winter it runs warm. It is recommended. In winter I'll have the heated seats on.

I'm not understanding your point there.
		
Click to expand...

The point was, turning on everything and loading up the van reduces the range of the van. I was telling BM that most people know that already


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			There are already plans to generate hydrogen from wind turbines. There's a demo project off Aberdeen to retrofit a wind turbine so that during the day when demand is higher it will feed in to the grid. At night when demand is lower it will switch to generating hydrogen from sea water. There are some buses in Aberdeen already running on hydrogen, although not from the wind turbine source.
		
Click to expand...

So you get electricity from wind turbines and use it to separate the Hydrogen from Oxygen which is then turned back into electricity in the car to power the motor.
Why the expensive middle man?
Turbine/solar/thermal.......electricity...........car.
I agree it may be more suitable for larger vehicles but I don't think it will ever work for cars.

And are people really going to fork out £50k on a new Toyota Mirai that does 26mpg and a range of 270 miles?
I know the costs will come down but so will the cost of EVs.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So you get electricity from wind turbines and use it to separate the Hydrogen from Oxygen which is then turned back into electricity in the car to power the motor.
Why the expensive middle man?
Turbine/solar/thermal.......electricity...........car.
I agree it may be more suitable for larger vehicles but I don't think it will ever work for cars.

And are people really going to fork out £50k on a new Toyota Mirai that does 26mpg and a range of 270 miles?
I know the costs will come down but so will the cost of EVs.
		
Click to expand...

I've no idea, that's all well above my pay grade. I just get told that the boat I'm joining is in Aberdeen and we're doing a route survey for a pipeline to bring hydrogen ashore from the turbine. I then turn up and run the survey.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2022)

For those people who want electric cars that can drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, this will not interest you.

For those who are interested in a new idea, please read on.

*Electric car conversion kit*
Basically, you take your little ICE run-around to the garage in the morning, the garage removes the oily smelly bit and replaces it with an electric battery and motor. Takes about 4 hours so you collect it at lunchtime.
Cost depends on size of battery and govt. grants but could be as low as €5,000


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			We know everything you wrote. Although why you would have the heating on, the heating seats on AND the air con on at the same time is puzzling.
		
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I have the heated seat on most of the time because I  have a bad back and need the heat to help ease it down. In my book, you do whatever you can to be able to work


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## RichA (Mar 18, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I have the heated seat on most of the time because I  have a bad back and need the heat to help ease it down. In my book, you do whatever you can to be able to work

Click to expand...

Likewise. Heated seat is on pretty much all year round. Especially when driving to the golf club. Muscles prewarmed by the heated seat = less time wasted on a warm up.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I have the heated seat on most of the time because I  have a bad back and need the heat to help ease it down. In my book, you do whatever you can to be able to work

Click to expand...

Puzzle solved, thank you.
I've never had a car with heated seats so don't know the benefits, I should have worked harder at school


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The point was, turning on everything and loading up the van reduces the range of the van. I was telling BM that most people know that already
		
Click to expand...

What I do know, is that the mileage I get form my VW Transporter more or less matches the claimed mileage in the brochure, and that’s including driving in central London. The chaps I have  spoken to who work for a manufacturer service agent and who uses electric vans have each said that empty, the range is ok. As soon as you load in what you need to carry and use anything within the van then the range drops by over half.
perhaps the manufacturerS of the electric vehicles should quote range when fully loaded and using all ancillaries.


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## greenone (Mar 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Hydrogen would still be electric. Just the hydrogen fuel cell will power the motors rather than a lithium battery.
		
Click to expand...

Not all of them. If the infrastructure was in place a new Mazda Rx would be at the top of my shopping list. Or convert the one that's been sat in the garage for the last 6 years.


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## Britishshooting (Mar 19, 2022)

I’ve just let my model x go which was on salary sacrifice, did 80k in it over 2-3 years and genuinely it convinced me I’d always have an EV on my drive. Range loss was fairly insignificant along with service costs.

New car time I was looking at going for the Taycan on salary sacrifice however an opportunity arose where my boss proposed buying the car outright as a capital expenditure.

I got lucky as it would have been a long range model however due to delivery dates I lucked out with the performance model. Looked at Model Y however dates didn’t meet my demands either.

This will cost me sub £50 a month BIK when it goes up to the 2% rate, free charging at work, no service or maintenance costs and insurance included with a home charger fitted when I move into my new house. You can’t afford not to go EV for a company car in those circumstances, it’s a no brainer even if you’re in a Volkswagen Up or something.

Sacrifice quality of build and comfort somewhat to what I’m used to however the tech is on another level and I will have absolutely zero fuel costs and ridiculous performance. Charging from work and have solar panels installed on house I’m moving into so rising costs not an issue.

I had a Range Rover SDV8 as I wanted an ICE car alongside my EV, I’ve literally just sold this as the range, super charging network and recently installed charging facilities at work just mean I really no longer need the car.

Ive always been a petrol head, EV works for me and it’s a perfect solution. Unfortunately it won’t work for others well if it all. We all have different constraints. 

We just need to cut the bull out. I’m neutral, I don’t claim to be saving the world however similarly stubbornness and fact manipulation also is of no use. It’s been painful during fuel increases seeing the memes within the EV communities, it does nothing but breed hatred towards EV drivers and creates an even larger divide.

Roll on May! (Fingers crossed)


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## phillarrow (Mar 19, 2022)

My current ICE has two years left on its deal and I fully intend to buy electric at that point. But... I won't unless there's been a huge improvement in the infrastructure and range/charging times by that point. 

We travel extensively in the UK, towing a trailer, and (selfish or not) I don't want to have to stop every couple of hours to recharge. Holiday time is precious, I don't want to waste too much of it sat in service stations. 

Also, as someone who has lived in a flat in recent years, there's an awful lot to square off yet if the move to electric is to become viable for everyone. There's no charging where I work and no option to charge at home. It is just not an option for me, and I suspect it still won't be by the time I'm hoping to buy one.


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## Britishshooting (Mar 20, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			My current ICE has two years left on its deal and I fully intend to buy electric at that point. But... I won't unless there's been a huge improvement in the infrastructure and range/charging times by that point.

We travel extensively in the UK, towing a trailer, and (selfish or not) I don't want to have to stop every couple of hours to recharge. Holiday time is precious, I don't want to waste too much of it sat in service stations.

Also, as someone who has lived in a flat in recent years, there's an awful lot to square off yet if the move to electric is to become viable for everyone. There's no charging where I work and no option to charge at home. It is just not an option for me, and I suspect it still won't be by the time I'm hoping to buy one.
		
Click to expand...

I know Tesla are trialling opening their super chargers to all EV’s in some countries. This would improve access immensely as that’s the main reason I go Tesla as the infrastructure is there. There is some push back from Tesla owners as it will reduce access to the provisions they have. I say go for it personally, it all generates money and Tesla can build more reliable points. Win / win in my opinion as we need more reliable fast charging locations.

My wife has a Fiat 500 electric and I have range anxiety if we go out in that sometimes. Real world in winter it gets around 150 miles, there have been times we have stopped at motorway services for a high speed charger and they have been faulty despite zap map showing them as working. This has really scuppered us as you have to pray the next available charger is working otherwise you could genuinely end up stranded as your range declines. It’s never happened but it nearly did once. We were on our way back from Bicester Village and Leicester forest east services were down, so were the next services and we fortunately found a Novotel off of junction 25 with 100kw charging. Frustratingly the Tesla Superchargers we’re all fine but we couldn’t use them. At Novotel we popped into the bar, had a drink and then 20 mins later had more than enough charge to get home comfortably. It’s added stress you don’t need and super chargers I find much more reliable so that would mitigate the stress. Never had range anxiety in my Tesla. High range and good charging provision covers that. To be fair my wife’s car is great for short daily commutes which is what she uses it for not long commutes. She charges it once every week or so and it gets her to work everyday on her 15-20 mile round trip commute.

There lies a huge problem, there isn’t that flexibility that ICE cars have. You have a little Honda Jazz or something whilst it not be the most comfortable on long journeys it can do them. If your budget only allows for a low range car you’re always going to be at a charging station on long commutes and that is utterly pointless. I think my wife’s car claims 180mile real world range. It doesn’t happen, 160 in summer is the most we’ve seen. You take this on a motorway and do 70 and it’s even less. So somebody could have higher expectations.

I wouldn’t say it’s selfish at all, I kept my Range Rover sport SDV8 for towing and due to the comfort on a really long commute chose it over the X as it was a more pleasurable experience and I wasn’t crippled on arrival. Some applications EV can’t compete with ICE currently. It’s silly to adversely effect ourselves. I travel a lot for work, up and down the motorway mostly but some remote places also. I’ve never had an issue as long range and supercharging facilities mean before I leave the motorway I can stop for a coffee and toilet break and charge back up to 80% in the process. This has always been enough for me to go remote and get back.

Routeplanners these days are really good for planning your charging, it’s second nature to me now and stopping to fast charge 15mins after 3 hours is no detriment to me. I need to stretch my legs and have another caffeine hit after that point anyway. Must admit however I’m the past I’ve brimmed my tank in a diesel and drove from East Midlands to Cornwall in one hit and not had to worry about refuelling. Now I factor in a 20-30 min charge between Bristol and Cornwall so I’m entering Cornwall with a good amount of range so I’m not worrying about recharging in remote locations. Never been an issue otherwise though.

As you say flats/ apartments on street parking etc is quite a hurdle and will hinder many people from making the switch. I have seen people trailing cords which isn’t a solution. I do think we have to commit to the conversion or lampposts however it’s still going to be an under provision in the future and at significant cost. A friend lives in an apartment and relies on Tesco for 7kw charging. Only works due to low mileage he does as he’d otherwise be solely reliant on fast charging which makes it less cost effective.

I think EV is great if it works with your lifestyle however if it doesn’t it really doesn’t and just becomes a hinderance. I no longer need to tow so the SDV8 has gone and as I drive on my own 90% of the time the Model 3 Performance gives me range, fast charging and quite a fun car.


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## DaveR (Mar 20, 2022)

Interesting video


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## bobmac (Mar 20, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			We were on our way back from Bicester Village and Leicester forest east services were down, so were the next services and we fortunately found a Novotel off of junction 25 with 100kw charging. Frustratingly the Tesla Superchargers we’re all fine but we couldn’t use them. At Novotel we popped into the bar, had a drink and then 20 mins later had more than enough charge to get home comfortably. It’s added stress you don’t need and super chargers I find much more reliable so that would mitigate the stress. Never had range anxiety in my Tesla. High range and good charging provision covers that. To be fair my wife’s car is great for short daily commutes which is what she uses it for not long commutes. She charges it once every week or so and it gets her to work everyday on her 15-20 mile round trip commute.
		
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that was a while ago as, according to Zap Map, there are quite a few free chargers around Bicester Village.
And a genuine question........if you have a Tesla which has a good range and is perfect for motorway driving and a huge boot for all the shopping, why did you take the Fiat 500?


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## bobmac (Mar 20, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Interesting video







Click to expand...

That just shows how far EVs have come in the last 10 years or so, when you could expect 80 mile range in the summer and 50 in the winter.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			I know Tesla are trialling opening their super chargers to all EV’s in some countries. This would improve access immensely as that’s the main reason I go Tesla as the infrastructure is there. There is some push back from Tesla owners as it will reduce access to the provisions they have. I say go for it personally, it all generates money and Tesla can build more reliable points. Win / win in my opinion as we need more reliable fast charging locations.

My wife has a Fiat 500 electric and I have range anxiety if we go out in that sometimes. Real world in winter it gets around 150 miles, there have been times we have stopped at motorway services for a high speed charger and they have been faulty despite zap map showing them as working. This has really scuppered us as you have to pray the next available charger is working otherwise you could genuinely end up stranded as your range declines. It’s never happened but it nearly did once. We were on our way back from Bicester Village and Leicester forest east services were down, so were the next services and we fortunately found a Novotel off of junction 25 with 100kw charging. Frustratingly the Tesla Superchargers we’re all fine but we couldn’t use them. At Novotel we popped into the bar, had a drink and then 20 mins later had more than enough charge to get home comfortably. It’s added stress you don’t need and super chargers I find much more reliable so that would mitigate the stress. Never had range anxiety in my Tesla. High range and good charging provision covers that. To be fair my wife’s car is great for short daily commutes which is what she uses it for not long commutes. She charges it once every week or so and it gets her to work everyday on her 15-20 mile round trip commute.

There lies a huge problem, there isn’t that flexibility that ICE cars have. You have a little Honda Jazz or something whilst it not be the most comfortable on long journeys it can do them. If your budget only allows for a low range car you’re always going to be at a charging station on long commutes and that is utterly pointless. I think my wife’s car claims 180mile real world range. It doesn’t happen, 160 in summer is the most we’ve seen. You take this on a motorway and do 70 and it’s even less. So somebody could have higher expectations.

I wouldn’t say it’s selfish at all, I kept my Range Rover sport SDV8 for towing and due to the comfort on a really long commute chose it over the X as it was a more pleasurable experience and I wasn’t crippled on arrival. Some applications EV can’t compete with ICE currently. It’s silly to adversely effect ourselves. I travel a lot for work, up and down the motorway mostly but some remote places also. I’ve never had an issue as long range and supercharging facilities mean before I leave the motorway I can stop for a coffee and toilet break and charge back up to 80% in the process. This has always been enough for me to go remote and get back.

Routeplanners these days are really good for planning your charging, it’s second nature to me now and stopping to fast charge 15mins after 3 hours is no detriment to me. I need to stretch my legs and have another caffeine hit after that point anyway. Must admit however I’m the past I’ve brimmed my tank in a diesel and drove from East Midlands to Cornwall in one hit and not had to worry about refuelling. Now I factor in a 20-30 min charge between Bristol and Cornwall so I’m entering Cornwall with a good amount of range so I’m not worrying about recharging in remote locations. Never been an issue otherwise though.

As you say flats/ apartments on street parking etc is quite a hurdle and will hinder many people from making the switch. I have seen people trailing cords which isn’t a solution. I do think we have to commit to the conversion or lampposts however it’s still going to be an under provision in the future and at significant cost. A friend lives in an apartment and relies on Tesco for 7kw charging. Only works due to low mileage he does as he’d otherwise be solely reliant on fast charging which makes it less cost effective.

I think EV is great if it works with your lifestyle however if it doesn’t it really doesn’t and just becomes a hinderance. I no longer need to tow so the SDV8 has gone and as I drive on my own 90% of the time the Model 3 Performance gives me range, fast charging and quite a fun car.
		
Click to expand...

Probably the most helpful reply on the subject. No axe to grind, just an honest reply.
Thankyou


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## DaveR (Mar 20, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Probably the most helpful reply on the subject. No axe to grind, just an honest reply.
Thankyou

Click to expand...

Only a couple of people have been giving biased replies, most have pointed out genuine issues. I think the majority if not all are happy to go EV as and when the technology is in place.


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## Britishshooting (Mar 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm guessing that was a while ago as, according to Zap Map, there are quite a few free chargers around Bicester Village.
And a genuine question........if you have a Tesla which has a good range and is perfect for motorway driving and a huge boot for all the shopping, why did you take the Fiat 500?
		
Click to expand...

May sound harsh but I don’t insure my wife to drive my cars, she has hers I have mine. She refused to drive my cars after curbing 2 of my wheels 😬.

Anyway.

I’d dropped my car into Land Rover for a warranty repair (I know). Only about 10-15 min drive to the office so a colleague picked me up from there and took me to the office. My wife was going to pick me up from work in the evening as my car was in at LR overnight.

My wife decides she wants to go to Bicester Village as there is a bag she wants available so she picks me up after work and we drive down there. They have on site EV parking, you book in prior to arrival, drive to a little hut to sign in and they show you to your space and plug it in for you. At the time all the restaurants and some in demand shops you had to book via an app and the wait was over an hour so after getting the bag and having a gander in several shops we decided to head home. Unfortunately I think it was only 7kw and we got there with low battery remaining as my wife hadn’t fully charged prior to leaving home. Left Bicester knowing we didn’t have enough battery to get home but didn’t want to wait around as we could fast charge it on the M1. Which we could but only on the 3rd attempt. Would have been fine if she left home with a decent amount of battery in the first instance.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 20, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			May sound harsh but I don’t insure my wife to drive my cars, she has hers I have mine. She refused to drive my cars after curbing 2 of my wheels 😬.

Anyway.

I’d dropped my car into Land Rover for a warranty repair (I know). Only about 10-15 min drive to the office so a colleague picked me up from there and took me to the office. My wife was going to pick me up from work in the evening as my car was in at LR overnight.

My wife decides she wants to go to Bicester Village as there is a bag she wants available so she picks me up after work and we drive down there. They have on site EV parking, you book in prior to arrival, drive to a little hut to sign in and they show you to your space and plug it in for you. At the time all the restaurants and some in demand shops you had to book via an app and the wait was over an hour so after getting the bag and having a gander in several shops we decided to head home. Unfortunately I think it was only 7kw and we got there with low battery remaining as my wife hadn’t fully charged prior to leaving home. Left Bicester knowing we didn’t have enough battery to get home but didn’t want to wait around as we could fast charge it on the M1. Which we could but only on the 3rd attempt. Would have been fine if she left home with a decent amount of battery in the first instance.
		
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With Cherwell Valley services just up the road, what’s the problem?

Sorry but this post makes you out as an entitled misogynist of the highest order


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## Britishshooting (Mar 20, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Only a couple of people have been giving biased replies, most have pointed out genuine issues. I think the majority if not all are happy to go EV as and when the technology is in place.
		
Click to expand...

Only one thing I don’t think I’ll ever ever get used to is lack of engine sound. Being able to buy something for £60k that can keep up with a lot of  super cars costing multiple times that is a feat in itself and is amazing but my god I miss the tone of a nice engine. Especially when your doing 70+ on the motorway and you’re just getting the annoying hum of tyre noise. 

Stressful days at work didn’t matter when you could roll down the window and listen to a V8/V10 (M5 that sounded like an old school f1 car) rumble as you cruised along. Terrible for the wallet but it scratched an itch an EV just can’t.

The acceleration can be mind blowing if your into that but it is somewhat sterile without the noise. 

Genuinely think petrol heads will eventually get an EV but have a motorbike or performance car for weekends to fill that void. That’s what I’ll be doing.


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## Britishshooting (Mar 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			With Cherwell Valley services just up the road, what’s the problem?

Sorry but this post makes you out as an entitled misogynist of the highest order
		
Click to expand...

Not sure where on earth you get that impression. Couldn’t be any further from the truth.

If it’s regarding the last sentence upon re-reading my post that sounds like I was blaming her, I wasn’t. I was speaking from an EV capability perspective that the range would not have been an issue if we left home with 100%.


If it’s regarding the not insuring her on my cars that’s as it’s her choice. Curbing 2 wheels cost about £150 to sort out it was a non issue but she still felt bad it’s her nature. I insured her after this during renewal but she still refused to drive them so I stopped paying the premium after that as it was pointless.

She just likes to drive what she knows and is comfortable in, so that’s fine.


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## larmen (Mar 20, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			Not sure where on earth you get that impression. Couldn’t be any further from the truth.

If it’s regarding the last sentence upon re-reading my post that sounds like I was blaming her, I wasn’t. I was speaking from an EV capability perspective that the range would not have been an issue if we left home with 100%.


If it’s regarding the not insuring her on my cars that’s as it’s her choice. Curbing 2 wheels cost about £150 to sort out it was a non issue but she still felt bad it’s her nature. I insured her after this during renewal but she still refused to drive them so I stopped paying the premium after that as it was pointless.

She just likes to drive what she knows and is comfortable in, so that’s fine.
		
Click to expand...

I insured my misses on my car and it made it cheaper, even with her not driving it at the time. It was a just in case and I was surprised to save some bucks doing it.

What I want to say, your misses doesn’t have to drive it, but might be worth she can do it in case you bust an ankle or get drunk, … , and it might also make financial sense.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2022)

larmen said:



			I insured my misses on my car and it made it cheaper, even with her not driving it at the time. It was a just in case and I was surprised to save some bucks doing it.

What I want to say, your misses doesn’t have to drive it, but might be worth she can do it in case you bust an ankle or get drunk, … , and it might also make financial sense.
		
Click to expand...

My wife doesn't drive my car (she has her own) and I don't insure her on mine. She would put the premium up if I did, as proven by my renewal dropping when I took her off it (and not having driven it once that year.....or at all)


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## Robster59 (Mar 21, 2022)

My missus is happy for me to drive her car.......
When I take it to fill it up with petrol.


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## phillarrow (Mar 21, 2022)

larmen said:



			I insured my misses on my car and it made it cheaper, even with her not driving it at the time. It was a just in case and I was surprised to save some bucks doing it.

What I want to say, your misses doesn’t have to drive it, but might be worth she can do it in case you bust an ankle or get drunk, … , and it might also make financial sense.
		
Click to expand...

I've found this as well. To be honest, I find it a bit insulting. Even when my ex-wife had points on her licence and a recent crash (both of which I didn't have) it brought the insurance down! 
It's a bizarre industry the insurance industry.  Actually scrap that - Insurance is an industrial-level scam!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I've found this as well. To be honest, I find it a bit insulting. Even when my ex-wife had points on her licence and a recent crash (both of which I didn't have) it brought the insurance down!
It's a bizarre industry the insurance industry.  Actually scrap that - *Insurance is an industrial-level scam!*

Click to expand...

This ^^^


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## Slime (Mar 21, 2022)

I've just renewed my two cars' insurance with my current insurer.
Last year ...... £462
This year ...... £324.

Yup, I'll go along with that.


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## Billysboots (Mar 21, 2022)

Would I buy an electric car? Only for local, urban driving. Long journeys are a right royal pain.

I drove 200 miles this afternoon up the M5 from Exeter in an e-Golf. The seller had fully charged it, I drove it with a right foot as light as a feather, and I still needed to make two further stops on the way up.

The 130-odd mile range advertised is urban driving based. On motorways it’s realistically nearer 90. Add the charging time on a rapid charge of 40 minutes, and the time spent trying to actually find a vacant charging point, and a 3 hour 20 minute journey became a 5 hour 30 minute torture.

No thanks. Too much faffing about for my liking.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Would I buy an electric car? Only for local, urban driving. Long journeys are a right royal pain.

I drove 200 miles this afternoon up the M5 from Exeter in an e-Golf. The seller had fully charged it, I drove it with a right foot as light as a feather, and I still needed to make two further stops on the way up.
		
Click to expand...

Was it the same as this e-Golf with a claimed 186 mile range but real life 125-130 miles


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2022)

Last month or so I have been really looking into this debate as my current lease deal for my Volvo XC40 is up in September and I could get an EV through work for virtually nothing, however I think I am going to pass, it’s the range that puts me off, this real life test sums up all the problems I would face, roof box, passengers, heater!😁






Can’t be arsed to watch ANOTHER video? well this is the crucial bit…




And this is for a Skoda enyaq which was a serious contender for me.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Was it the same as this e-Golf with a claimed 186 mile range but real life 125-130 miles







Click to expand...

Yep, that’s the one.


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## Captainron (Mar 22, 2022)

Another massive issue looming here is the price of the batteries. Cobalt and lithium prices are going to go up again massively. Prices rises on EV will rise faster than the petrol/diesel models.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Last month or so I have been really looking into this debate as my current lease deal for my Volvo XC40 is up in September and I could get an EV through work for virtually nothing, however I think I am going to pass, it’s the range that puts me off, this real life test sums up all the problems I would face, roof box, passengers, heater!😁






Can’t be arsed to watch ANOTHER video? well this is the crucial bit…

View attachment 41920


And this is for a Skoda enyaq which was a serious contender for me.
		
Click to expand...

Yesterday was my first real experience of doing the sort of driving I regularly do in an EV, and I just found it utterly impractical. It’s all very well saying you can boost performance by driving in eco-mode, and with as many systems shut down as possible, but can someone explain to me how that is even remotely enjoyable?

Great for local stuff if your journeys are predominately short, but for any serious driving these cars are just a faff. I don’t want to be adding hours, and I do mean hours, onto an already long and tiring drive. Life is too short.

I have been a sceptic when it comes to EV’s from the start. Yesterday merely confirmed what I suspected all along. Until such time as ranges dramatically improve, and/or charging points become far more readily available, with far more rapid charging points, I won’t be touching one with a barge pole.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Yesterday was my first real experience of doing the sort of driving I regularly do in an EV, and I just found it utterly impractical. It’s all very well saying you can boost performance by driving in eco-mode, and with as many systems shut down as possible, but can someone explain to me how that is even remotely enjoyable?

Great for local stuff if your journeys are predominately short, but for any serious driving these cars are just a faff. I don’t want to be adding hours, and I do mean hours, onto an already long and tiring drive. Life is too short.

I have been a sceptic when it comes to EV’s from the start. Yesterday merely confirmed what I suspected all along. Until such time as ranges dramatically improve, and/or charging points become far more readily available, with far more rapid charging points, I won’t be touching one with a barge pole.
		
Click to expand...

So you wont get an EV based on the experience of driving a car that's designed for nipping round town and you used it on a lengthy journey on a motorway and didn't like the range?
If you had used a VW ID.3, you would have got there without stopping once.
If you used a Tesla Model S or Merc EQS, you could have got there AND BACK without stopping once.

And as for towing a caravan, I wonder how that affects the MPG on an ICE car.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So you wont get an EV based on the experience of driving a car that's designed for nipping round town and you used it on a lengthy journey on a motorway and didn't like the range?
*If you had used a VW ID.3, you would have got there without stopping once.
If you used a Tesla Model S or Merc EQS, you could have got there AND BACK without stopping once.*

And as for towing a caravan, I wonder how that affects the MPG on an ICE car.
		
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I regularly drive well in excess of the ranges of those vehicles, Bob. Even those with the longer ranges would be needing at least one charge during my day, bringing into play the issues I found yesterday.

Whilst there seems to be this halcyon view that EV ownership is a joy, the following are just some of the frustrations I found yesterday. Two rapid charging points in a pub car park, both in use, and impossible to find when they would be available in a pub packed with lunchtime drinkers and diners. Another facility badged on Google Maps as “BP”, which turned out to be in a multi-storey car park - I had the choice of moving on, or driving into the car park, finding the charging points in use, driving straight out again and paying £5 for the privilege. The charging points near a school, with parents on the school run queuing for a top-up. Or the best one of the lot, the “public” charging point which was actually behind a barrier at a police facility.

I have several apps on my phone which I have used previously to try and plan routes in EV’s, which I tried to use again yesterday. All carried a lot of misinformation, the net result being that you actually have to drive to the charging point before you can see firstly if it’s available and, secondly, if it’s even working. All of that whilst watching the range diminishing and a growing sense of what I have heard perfectly described as “range anxiety”!

Don’t get me wrong, yesterday’s car was a lovely drive. But the simple fact is that, regardless of what EV you can splurge the cash on (I see the Tesla Model S is upwards of £70k), you are going to encounter these issues when trying to find public charging points in unfamiliar locations. The network is still way too sporadic to encourage me to swap.

Spiralling prices aside, give me a good old petrol station any day of the week.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I regularly drive well in excess of the ranges of those vehicles, Bob. Even those with the longer ranges would be needing at least one charge during my day, bringing into play the issues I found yesterday.

Whilst there seems to be this halcyon view that EV ownership is a joy, the following are just some of the frustrations I found yesterday. Two rapid charging points in a pub car park, both in use, and impossible to find when they would be available in a pub packed with lunchtime drinkers and diners. Another facility badged on Google Maps as “BP”, which turned out to be in a multi-storey car park - I had the choice of moving on, or driving into the car park, finding the charging points in use, driving straight out again and paying £5 for the privilege. The charging points near a school, with parents on the school run queuing for a top-up. Or the best one of the lot, the “public” charging point which was actually behind a barrier at a police facility.

I have several apps on my phone which I have used previously to try and plan routes in EV’s, which I tried to use again yesterday. All carried a lot of misinformation, the net result being that you actually have to drive to the charging point before you can see firstly if it’s available and, secondly, if it’s even working. All of that whilst watching the range diminishing and a growing sense of what I have heard perfectly described as “range anxiety”!

Don’t get me wrong, yesterday’s car was a lovely drive. But the simple fact is that, regardless of what EV you can splurge the cash on (I see the Tesla Model S is upwards of £70k), you are going to encounter these issues when trying to find public charging points in unfamiliar locations. The network is still way too sporadic to encourage me to swap.

Spiralling prices aside, give me a good old petrol station any day of the week.
		
Click to expand...

So the range isn't good enough, the infrastructure isn't there and they are too expensive.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So the range isn't good enough, the infrastructure isn't there and they are too expensive.
		
Click to expand...

That pretty much sums it up 😉


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Yesterday was my first real experience of doing the sort of driving I regularly do in an EV, and I just found it utterly impractical. It’s all very well saying you can boost performance by driving in eco-mode, and with as many systems shut down as possible, but can someone explain to me how that is even remotely enjoyable?

Great for local stuff if your journeys are predominately short, but for any serious driving these cars are just a faff. I don’t want to be adding hours, and I do mean hours, onto an already long and tiring drive. Life is too short.

I have been a sceptic when it comes to EV’s from the start. Yesterday merely confirmed what I suspected all along. Until such time as ranges dramatically improve, and/or charging points become far more readily available, with far more rapid charging points, I won’t be touching one with a barge pole.
		
Click to expand...

While I'm inclined to agree that EVs currently have limitations, I'm pretty certain that a sizeble amount of your experience was simply generated from the fear of getting stuck by running out of charge. I had a similar experience many years ago when I won the use of the (big) boss's Ferrari  - and it was the automatic (400) model so supposedly more user-friendly - for a fortnight. By the 3rd day, I was a virtual wreck worrying about all the bad things that could happen to it/me. Not, initially, the experience I had contemplated and much of it persisted. Others reported the same/similar initial fears, but we all agreed that they moderated, to varying degrees, over time. 
However, I've never seen EVs either broken down, nor on the back of lorries being recovered. 
So I believe the fears are simply initial ones that are quickly overcome by procedures and practice and the routine becomes 2nd nature very quickly! That stated, a certain amount of planning/routine IS currently involved, so I can understand why many go for hybrids - which I'm not sure are the best oor worst of both worlds.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			While I'm inclined to agree that EVs currently have limitations, I'm pretty certain that a sizeble amount of your experience was simply generated from the fear of getting stuck by running out of charge. I had a similar experience many years ago when I won the use of the (big) boss's Ferrari  - and it was the automatic (400) model so supposedly more user-friendly - for a fortnight. By the 3rd day, I was a virtual wreck worrying about all the bad things that could happen to it/me. Not, initially, the experience I had contemplated and much of it persisted. Others reported the same/similar initial fears, but we all agreed that they moderated, to varying degrees, over time.
However, I've never seen EVs either broken down, nor on the back of lorries being recovered.
So I believe the fears are simply initial ones that are quickly overcome by procedures and practice and the routine becomes 2nd nature very quickly! That stated, a certain amount of planning/routine IS currently involved, so I can understand why many go for hybrids - which I'm not sure are the best oor worst of both worlds.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t doubt there’s an element of that, and certainly the infrastructure doesn’t help to ease my concerns.

If I drove an EV regularly and on regular routes then I don’t doubt I would be more content to own one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			While I'm inclined to agree that EVs currently have limitations, I'm pretty certain that a sizeble amount of your experience was simply generated from the fear of getting stuck by running out of charge. I had a similar experience many years ago when I won the use of the (big) boss's Ferrari  - and it was the automatic (400) model so supposedly more user-friendly - for a fortnight. By the 3rd day, I was a virtual wreck worrying about all the bad things that could happen to it/me. Not, initially, the experience I had contemplated and much of it persisted. Others reported the same/similar initial fears, but we all agreed that they moderated, to varying degrees, over time.
However, I've never seen EVs either broken down, nor on the back of lorries being recovered.
So I believe the fears are simply initial ones that are quickly overcome by procedures and practice and the routine becomes 2nd nature very quickly! That stated, a certain amount of planning/routine IS currently involved, so I can understand why many go for hybrids - which I'm not sure are the best oor worst of both worlds.
		
Click to expand...

My sister in laws car went into limp mode and then simply stopped a couple of weeks ago, a Ford Puma Hybrid. It was early evening but dark so I went to pick her up whilst the AA van was en route, then waited with her whilst it was being fixed. We got chatting about EV's, how are they changing his job etc. He said that he proportionately sees the same number as regular cars, frequently for the same problems. Run out of fuel / charge, flat batteries (the 12v ones, that the ones that propel the car), punctures. 

I rarely see any car being towed away now, they are all just made better than they used to be.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My sister in laws car went into limp mode and then simply stopped a couple of weeks ago, a Ford Puma Hybrid. It was early evening but dark so I went to pick her up whilst the AA van was en route, then waited with her whilst it was being fixed. We got chatting about EV's, how are they changing his job etc. He said that he proportionately sees the same number as regular cars, frequently for the same problems. Run out of fuel / charge, flat batteries (the 12v ones, that the ones that propel the car), punctures.

I rarely see any car being towed away now, they are all just made better than they used to be.
		
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Agreed. I think my 'never seen' was probably wrong! More likely 'haven't particularly noticed' would have been better/more correct.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			That pretty much sums it up 😉
		
Click to expand...

Please see post no. 2067

You do know in 2011, you could only buy one EV, a Nissan Leaf which had a range of about 80 miles on a good day, cost around £30,000 and there were around 1,500 chargers in the UK.
Today, there are more than 130 to choose from, many of which are well below £30,000 including the MG5 (250 mile range) and there are presently over 50,000 connectors.
Think where we'll be in another 8 years time.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			While I'm inclined to agree that EVs currently have limitations, I'm pretty certain that a sizeble amount of your experience was simply generated from the fear of getting stuck by running out of charge. I had a similar experience many years ago when I won the use of the (big) boss's Ferrari  - and it was the automatic (400) model so supposedly more user-friendly - for a fortnight. By the 3rd day, I was a virtual wreck worrying about all the bad things that could happen to it/me. Not, initially, the experience I had contemplated and much of it persisted. Others reported the same/similar initial fears, but we all agreed that they moderated, to varying degrees, over time.
However, I've never seen EVs either broken down, nor on the back of lorries being recovered.
So I believe the fears are simply initial ones that are quickly overcome by procedures and practice and the routine becomes 2nd nature very quickly! That stated, a certain amount of planning/routine IS currently involved, so I can understand why many go for hybrids - which I'm not sure are the best oor worst of both worlds.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's just 'horses for courses'. We're 6 years into PHEV ownership which is ideal for our use pattern of mainly local trip (<60mls) with about fortnightly journeys of over 150 -200 mls. It gets charged overnight on the drive. The running costs are very low.

We do have a second petrol motor which is now rarely used unless we need two cars at the same time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Please see post no. 2067

You do know in 2011, you could only buy one EV, a Nissan Leaf which had a range of about 80 miles on a good day, cost around £30,000 and there were around 1,500 chargers in the UK.
Today, there are more than 130 to choose from, many of which are well below £30,000 including the MG5 (250 mile range) and there are presently over 50,000 connectors.
*Think where we'll be in another 8 years time.*

Click to expand...

I think this is one of the current problems though, we are being asked to take a leap of faith at this stage, 'build it and they will come'. A report came out in Northumberland last week which stated they only have 2% of the charges necessary to cope with the 2030 change. We are expected to believe that they will have everything in place by then (the report suggested that would be nigh on impossible incidentally). If govt / people want the public to buy into this then they need to stop expecting us to cross our fingers and hope things will be put into place. They need to actually put them in place, then come back and say, buy electric.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

And if you do run out of charge...


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this is one of the current problems though, we are being asked to take a leap of faith at this stage, 'build it and they will come'. A report came out in Northumberland last week which stated they only have 2% of the charges necessary to cope with the 2030 change. We are expected to believe that they will have everything in place by then (the report suggested that would be nigh on impossible incidentally). If govt / people want the public to buy into this then they need to stop expecting us to cross our fingers and hope things will be put into place. They need to actually put them in place, then come back and say, buy electric.
		
Click to expand...

What is going to change in 2030?
The whole country isn't going to suddenly change to electric overnight.
Judging by the comments on here, some will never change to EV.
The only change in 2030 is you won't be able to buy a NEW ICE car.
If you want to stick with your petrol or diesel, please do so.


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And if you do run out of charge...

View attachment 41921

Click to expand...

As long as you don’t mind the 6 hour wait before he arrives 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What is going to change in 2030?
The whole country isn't going to suddenly change to electric overnight.
Judging by the comments on here, some will never change to EV.
The only change in 2030 is you won't be able to buy a NEW ICE car.
If you want to stick with your petrol or diesel, please do so.
		
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The whole system is clearly being pushed towards an electric conversion for that date. The govt / EU are hoping that the pressure of a dealine will focus all parties, mfrs, charger suppliers, consumers etc into converting. Pretending that is not the case is daft. Plenty will not swap, for all the usual reasons, but the pressure is there. As a consumer, I am allowed to be grumpy about being pushed into a corner when the infrastructure is clearly not there. It is not about whether I like electric cars or not, as it happens I love a quiet car so electric is right up my street, it is about a bodge happening before our very eyes whilst we are continuously being told 'don't worry, all will be fine'. I can almost feel my head being patted


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can almost feel my head being patted 

Click to expand...

In 2029, if you think the infrastructure isn't there and the costs are still too high and the range isn't enough and the charging takes too long, don't buy one.
Buy a brand new ICE car in 2029 and keep it for 20 years if you want.
However I think by 2030 it will make more sense to buy an EV as all the new cars being released now will be very affordable 2nd hand


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## road2ruin (Mar 22, 2022)

I don't think we need to be worried about the increase in EV's vs the number of charging units as you cannot get (a new one) for love nor money. I'm close to cancelling my order as they've just extended the delivery time to "At some point in 2022/2023"!!


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2022)

I'll get a taste of EV life on Friday. My car is going down south for some tweaking following a turbo replacement/upgrade and it will be away 10-15 days so I am being given a Ioniq as a loaner for the duration with a plug in charger (suppose that's slower than a "plugged in" one). 

What will be interesting is testing the concept that whereever I am going there will be some form of charging available to keep me right. 

It's an ugly thing though, but it's only for a week or so.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Please see post no. 2067

You do know in 2011, you could only buy one EV, a Nissan Leaf which had a range of about 80 miles on a good day, cost around £30,000 and there were around 1,500 chargers in the UK.
Today, there are more than 130 to choose from, many of which are well below £30,000 including the MG5 (250 mile range) and there are presently over 50,000 connectors.
Think where we'll be in another 8 years time.
		
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and in another 8 years if the infrastructure issues, cost of batteries and range are all in a different place, i will consider one, if circumstances permit. But no way at the moment


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## cliveb (Mar 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The whole system is clearly being pushed towards an electric conversion for that date. The govt / EU are hoping that the pressure of a dealine will focus all parties, mfrs, charger suppliers, consumers etc into converting.
		
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+1

As with pretty much all forms of social engineering, the government is using the stick instead of the carrot.
The carrot approach would be to heavily support the building of the necessary infrastructure so that owning an EV becomes a no-brainer.
But it's so much easier to just ban the sale of ICE cars.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

The plans for 2030 were made before pandemic, the resulting supply chain crisis and the situation in Ukraine all occured.

The 2030 plan will miss by a long way now because it's impossible to get silicon manufacturing back on schedule. Doesn't mean that I don't think we should try but the reality is it's all already a long way behind.

People investing under the impression that infrastructure will be vastly improved in the next 8 years are being mis-sold IMO.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and in another 8 years if the infrastructure issues, cost of batteries and range are all in a different place, i will consider one, if circumstances permit. But no way at the moment
		
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I have no problem with that as I've said many many times before, EVs don't suit everyone at the moment but hopefully in the not too distant future they will suit more and more.



Jimaroid said:



			People investing under the impression that infrastructure will be vastly improved in the next 8 years are being mis-sold IMO.
		
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Who knows what the future will bring. 
But as long as manufacturers keep making ICE cars, EVs won't come down in price.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I regularly drive well in excess of the ranges of those vehicles, Bob. Even those with the longer ranges would be needing at least one charge during my day, bringing into play the issues I found yesterday.

Whilst there seems to be this halcyon view that EV ownership is a joy, the following are just some of the frustrations I found yesterday. Two rapid charging points in a pub car park, both in use, and impossible to find when they would be available in a pub packed with lunchtime drinkers and diners. Another facility badged on Google Maps as “BP”, which turned out to be in a multi-storey car park - I had the choice of moving on, or driving into the car park, finding the charging points in use, driving straight out again and paying £5 for the privilege. The charging points near a school, with parents on the school run queuing for a top-up. Or the best one of the lot, the “public” charging point which was actually behind a barrier at a police facility.

I have several apps on my phone which I have used previously to try and plan routes in EV’s, which I tried to use again yesterday. All carried a lot of misinformation, the net result being that you actually have to drive to the charging point before you can see firstly if it’s available and, secondly, if it’s even working. All of that whilst watching the range diminishing and a growing sense of what I have heard perfectly described as “range anxiety”!

Don’t get me wrong, yesterday’s car was a lovely drive. But the simple fact is that, regardless of what EV you can splurge the cash on (I see the Tesla Model S is upwards of £70k), you are going to encounter these issues when trying to find public charging points in unfamiliar locations. The network is still way too sporadic to encourage me to swap.

Spiralling prices aside, give me a good old petrol station any day of the week.
		
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Ah….what you mean is the Real “_real world_” of traffic and deadlines where a 350 mile journey needs to take 5-6 Hrs not 5-6 hours plus two 50 minute top ups (have a coffee and a rest why don’t you 🙄) 

I’ve weighed it up, getting a “long range” job and plotting my long journeys verses getting a city car and hiring when I go on long journeys and I think they are just not right for me. I’ve selfishly got my eye on a Volvo V60. 2L petrol, euro6 compliant, she’s a beauty and it’s  only £305 per month. 😁


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Ah….what you mean is the Real “_real world_” of traffic and deadlines where a 350 mile journey needs to take 5-6 Hrs not 5-6 hours plus two 50 minute top ups (have a coffee and a rest why don’t you 🙄)

I’ve weighed it up, getting a “long range” job and plotting my long journeys verses getting a city car and hiring when I go on long journeys and I think they are just not right for me*. I’ve selfishly got my eye on a Volvo V60.* 2L petrol, euro6 compliant, she’s a beauty and it’s  only £305 per month. 😁
		
Click to expand...

If it suits your needs, perfect, go for it, nobody is stopping you.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Who knows what the future will bring.
But as long as manufacturers keep making ICE cars, EVs won't come down in price.
		
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I doubt very much that ceasing ICE production will make EVs cheaper. Nothing is getting cheaper in the next few years so unless EVs become heavily subsidised I'm not expecting them to become any more affordable.

As keeps being said, rare earth elements are a problem by definition of them being rare.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Who knows what the future will bring.
But as long as manufacturers keep making ICE cars, EVs won't come down in price.
		
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I don't agree with this and think any push down this path is madness. EVs are the future and we all know it but we have to get there without compromising the economy. EVs should become a lot cheaper than ICEs within a few years anyway as they are a lot simpler. If they strides in battery technology happen - notwithstanding the current supply shocks  - then they will naturally take over on economic grounds.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Ah….what you mean is the Real “_real world_” of traffic and deadlines where a 350 mile journey needs to take 5-6 Hrs not 5-6 hours *plus two 50 minute top ups* (have a coffee and a rest why don’t you 🙄)
		
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If you are doing 350 miles per day, the Tesla S would be your best bet at 298 miles of range and if you use the Tesla superchargers you can add *200 miles in 15 minutes* and for some cars that is *FREE FUEL.*

So on Monday you drive 350 miles with one stop of 15 minutes.
And on Tuesday you drive back with one stop of 15 minutes.
Total distance.... 700 miles
Total cost..... 0


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I doubt very much that ceasing ICE production will make EVs cheaper.
		
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Mr and Mrs Smith go to buy a car. 
The salesman shows them 3 similar cars all the same price.
The petrol version will do 50mpg
The diesel will do 60mpg
The EV will do 150mpg.
The salesman would never sell another petrol or diesel car.
But because the manufacturers are still churning out ICE cars, the showroom have to keep the EV costs high to encourage people to buy the ICE cars until they sell all their backlog.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2022)

To take a different view on this, just for a moment, this thread was started in Nov 2020. so about 18 months ago. I understand that there has been a pandemic so that has to be taken in to account... but my question is:

In *YOUR* area, in that 18 months what progress have you seen in infrastructure to support EVs? I was thinking about this earlier on today and in my area, in that time with are net -4 charging points. 2 new points were installed when McD's built a new drive through but 4 were either removed or decommissioned due to a business closing (no-one must have picked up the costs for the chargers to keep operating) or they have been vandalised so often that they've been totally shut down. 

We have a new college and school "super campus" being built that will have 20 charge points installed. So that's a positive.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			To take a different view on this, just for a moment, this thread was started in Nov 2020. so about 18 months ago. I understand that there has been a pandemic so that has to be taken in to account... but my question is:

In *YOUR* area, in that 18 months what progress have you seen in infrastructure to support EVs? I was thinking about this earlier on today and in my area, in that time with are net -4 charging points. 2 new points were installed when McD's built a new drive through but 4 were either removed or decommissioned due to a business closing (no-one must have picked up the costs for the chargers to keep operating) or they have been vandalised so often that they've been totally shut down.

We have a new college and school "super campus" being built that will have 20 charge points installed. So that's a positive.
		
Click to expand...

In the back of beyond where I live, there were none within my local town.
Now Tesco have 4.
2x50 kwh
1x22 kwh
1x7 kwh

The 7 and 22 kwh are both free of charge


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## GreiginFife (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			In the back of beyond where I live, there were none within my local town.
Now Tesco have 4.
2x50 kwh
1x22 kwh
1x7 kwh

The 7 and 22 kwh are both free of charge
		
Click to expand...

Our Tesco have 2 and the "big" Tesco has 4, in theory although the big Tesco is where one has been left out of commission following vandalism. 

Our rail station had one but it's constant vandalism has left it out of use. 

Pure Gym has one in their car park which I think is the closest to me at 4 miles, but for customer use only, understandably.


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Please see post no. 2067

You do know in 2011, you could only buy one EV, a Nissan Leaf which had a range of about 80 miles on a good day, cost around £30,000 and there were around 1,500 chargers in the UK.
Today, there are more than 130 to choose from, many of which are well below £30,000 including the MG5 (250 mile range) and there are presently over 50,000 connectors.
*Think where we'll be in another 8 years time.*

Click to expand...

Then I’ll reconsider in 8 years’ time 😇


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			To take a different view on this, just for a moment, this thread was started in Nov 2020. so about 18 months ago. I understand that there has been a pandemic so that has to be taken in to account... but my question is:

In *YOUR* area, in that 18 months what progress have you seen in infrastructure to support EVs? I was thinking about this earlier on today and in my area, in that time with are net -4 charging points. 2 new points were installed when McD's built a new drive through but 4 were either removed or decommissioned due to a business closing (no-one must have picked up the costs for the chargers to keep operating) or they have been vandalised so often that they've been totally shut down.

We have a new college and school "super campus" being built that will have 20 charge points installed. So that's a positive.
		
Click to expand...

We only have one facility within 4 miles of my home address. Whilst I live in a village, we are nevertheless 3 miles from the nearest small town - not one charging facility there despite there being three supermarkets, a leisure centre, a number of small hotels and so on.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Mr and Mrs Smith go to buy a car.
... the showroom have to keep the EV costs high to encourage people to buy the ICE cars until they sell all their backlog.
		
Click to expand...

That's a load of hypothetical and conspiracy nonsense.



GreiginFife said:



			In *YOUR* area, in that 18 months what progress have you seen in infrastructure to support EVs?
		
Click to expand...

We've had two 22kW chargers installed in the village. I couldn't say how well they're being used, I sometimes see a bay occupied when I go past. I know the local councillor is campaigning for more but no sign yet.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			That's a load of hypothetical and conspiracy nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

If you were Mr Smith, which car would you buy?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you were Mr Smith, which car would you buy?
		
Click to expand...

The car that best suited my needs.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you were Mr Smith, which car would you buy?
		
Click to expand...

No idea. I don't buy cars by only looking at mpg.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

Ok, you have a petrol station at the end of your road and a driveway where you could charge your EV.
You are in the market for a Golf.
The choice is a Golf petrol, a Golf diesel and an e Golf.
All the same price.
Which would you choose?


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

I don't want a Golf.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

I'm done


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## phillarrow (Mar 22, 2022)

I don't really have a view on the argument...but those last few posts made me laugh!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			I don't really have a view on the argument...but those last few posts made me laugh! 

Click to expand...

Read them again and imagine Tommy Cooper is reading the lines. It is right up his street and it makes it even funnier.


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## road2ruin (Mar 22, 2022)

I think that over the last 10 or so pages (maybe even more) it can be summed up as....

1. Some won't entertain an EV until they're forced to do so at some point way down the line. 

2. Some like the idea of an EV but they're just not practical for them to do so given the current state so will stick with ICE until things change.  

3. Some are pro EV and accept the present limitations and just work around them. 

As things stand not going to change the minds of those in camps 1 or 3 so we're just going round and round in circles.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2022)

Ah, c'mon Bob, it's a valid point and I'm glad someone can see the lighter side of the intent.

Buying decisions just aren't that simple. Especially when it comes to motors where most people generally buy to a constrained budget and buy with the heart. I want my next car purchase to be an EV, it just all depends on which car needs replaced first as they're used for different purposes. I know the infrastructure will improve but I don't want to be the sucker that pays over the odds by being the early adopter. Simultaneously I do have a fear of missing out on the low cost per mile the early adopters have. Both of those things will change though, given what's happening with the world I think buying *right now* is a mistake and I have to wait.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I don't want a Golf.
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂😂


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I don't want a Golf.
		
Click to expand...

its a golf forum 😂


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			its a golf forum 😂
		
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Is it a "Golf" you can "game" though?


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## phillarrow (Mar 22, 2022)

Can you get fitted for this golf? 🤔😉


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Can you get fitted for this golf? 🤔😉
		
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Don't know about fitted, but after so long the seats become most uncomfortable.....


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## phillarrow (Mar 22, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I think that over the last 10 or so pages (maybe even more) it can be summed up as....

1. Some won't entertain an EV until they're forced to do so at some point way down the line.

2. Some like the idea of an EV but they're just not practical for them to do so given the current state so will stick with ICE until things change. 

3. Some are pro EV and accept the present limitations and just work around them.

As things stand not going to change the minds of those in camps 1 or 3 so we're just going round and round in circles.
		
Click to expand...

You missed... 

4) Some people are so determinedly pro EV, that whenever others give genuine and understandable reasons why they're not yet ready to switch, they close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears, and say "La la la, I can't hear you, and if I close my eyes you've gone away." 😉😂


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			You missed...

4) Some people are so determinedly pro EV, that whenever others give genuine and understandable reasons why they're not yet ready to switch, they close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears, and say "La la la, I can't hear you, and if I close my eyes you've gone away." 😉😂
		
Click to expand...

Aimed at me I guess


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## phillarrow (Mar 22, 2022)

Still struggling to see the lighter side eh? 🙄

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but there have been several posts in this thread that seem to so determinedly ignore the genuine issues we still face with EV that they're just a bit pointless. Believe it or not, some of us don't go around trying to identify the posters we disagree with, and then argue with them just because it's them. I couldn't care less who it is that says these things, I'm just commenting on the posts themselves. 👍


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

phillarrow said:



			Still struggling to see the lighter side eh? 🙄

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but there have been several posts in this thread that seem to so determinedly ignore the genuine issues we still face with EV that they're just a bit pointless. Believe it or not, some of us don't go around trying to identify the posters we disagree with, and then argue with them just because it's them. I couldn't care less who it is that says these things, I'm just commenting on the posts themselves. 👍
		
Click to expand...

The intent wasn't light when I was accused of talking a load of hypothetical and conspiracy nonsense.
And far from singing la la la,  I tried to answer patiently the same doubts on range, cost, infrastructure over and over again, even to the point in post no. 2067 I acknowledged the concerns that some people have but still they are repeated ad nauseam.

Buy what you want, I don't give a monkeys


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2022)

I can only speak for myself, but I didn’t read through 100+ pages before I replied to this thread, so apologies if I raised the same concerns which have already been done to death.

I merely answered the original question - whether I would buy an electric car - and then explained my own position.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 22, 2022)

https://therevelator.org/ev-batteries-seabed-mining/


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2022)

Over 2k posts on a binary issue:

I you like the idea of an electric car buy one - if not don't

The decision is yours: what anyone else does is of no concern


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## SteveJay (Mar 22, 2022)

Hadn't really considered electric before but this thread has intrigued me a bit. My petrol lease car ends in December. so starting to think about my next car. Since retiring and with the pandemic, most of my journeys are less than 30 miles. Wife has a diesel BMW 1 series so on the face of it an EV could work for me. If we needed a bigger range we could take the BMW. The lifestyle change could mean a smaller car would be OK, as long as the clubs fit in the boot!

Can I ask 3 questions - apologies for the lack of knowledge (and it might have been covered earlier).

1. Could only justify buying used. Is there a real risk that battery life will have been reduced by bad charging practices (I have read what is recommended)?
2. I might sometimes go a couple days without using the car. Does battery charge drop if it's sat (unplugged) on the drive?
3. How do servicing costs compare with ICE (presumably cheaper)?

Thanks in advance.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2022)

Lots and lots of going round in circles here with some folk getting uptight.

So lets have a general Summary of the current position

EV's do not have an exhaust, so emmissions are zero, they promote cleaner air qualty.
EV's are great if you have a moderate distance to drive and have charging facilities at home or at work.
EV's are currently more expensive than ICE cars and this is a barrier to more people buying them.
The mining of minerals to make EV batteries is an ongoing issue of some concern.
The Rapid Charging infractructure has improved over the last 3 years, but still has a very long way to go.
Lamp post charging is now quite common in London, but these are not rapid chargers.
EV Range needs to improve and also charging time, when we get to 350/400 miles range rechargable in 15 minutes will be a major landmark.

As more people switch away from ICE cars, the governments revenue from fuel will drop and need to be replaced
is there anything I have missed?


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## DaveR (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Please see post no. 2067

You do know in 2011, you could only buy one EV, a Nissan Leaf which had a range of about 80 miles on a good day, cost around £30,000 and there were around 1,500 chargers in the UK.
Today, there are more than 130 to choose from, many of which are well below £30,000 including the MG5 (250 mile range) and there are presently over 50,000 connectors.
Think where we'll be in another 8 years time.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. In 8 years time I'll give serious consideration to an EV 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Hadn't really considered electric before but this thread has intrigued me a bit. My petrol lease car ends in December. so starting to think about my next car. Since retiring and with the pandemic, most of my journeys are less than 30 miles. Wife has a diesel BMW 1 series so on the face of it an EV could work for me. If we needed a bigger range we could take the BMW. The lifestyle change could mean a smaller car would be OK, as long as the clubs fit in the boot!

Can I ask 3 questions - apologies for the lack of knowledge (and it might have been covered earlier).

1. Could only justify buying used. Is there a real risk that battery life will have been reduced by bad charging practices (I have read what is recommended)?
2. I might sometimes go a couple days without using the car. Does battery charge drop if it's sat (unplugged) on the drive?
3. How do servicing costs compare with ICE (presumably cheaper)?

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

Good questions
1 possible, but unlikely, even ICE cars have reduced engine efficiency after a few years
2 Only in really cold weather, we had EV demos on our forecourt for days on end with no loss of juice
3 Less moving parts, therefore cheaper, unless you are talking about replacing the battery.


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## DaveR (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you are doing 350 miles per day, the Tesla S would be your best bet at 298 miles of range and if you use the Tesla superchargers you can add *200 miles in 15 minutes* and for some cars that is *FREE FUEL.*

So on Monday you drive 350 miles with one stop of 15 minutes.
And on Tuesday you drive back with one stop of 15 minutes.
Total distance.... 700 miles
Total cost..... 0
		
Click to expand...

You realise that the Tesla S is considered a luxury car for a reason.....price. Way out of range for the majority of people. You may as well have said if you want to go 350 miles in a day take a private jet.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you are doing 350 miles per day, the Tesla S would be your best bet at 298 miles of range and if you use the Tesla superchargers you can add 200 miles in 15 minutes and for some cars that is FREE FUEL.

So on Monday you drive 350 miles with one stop of 15 minutes.
And on Tuesday you drive back with one stop of 15 minutes.
Total distance.... 700 miles
Total cost.....* £73900*

Click to expand...

You missed out the price of the car Bob, out of the price range of the vast majority even on lease


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You missed out the price of the car Bob, out of the price range of the vast majority even on lease
		
Click to expand...

Only if you're daft enough to buy a brand new one
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...chad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Only if you're daft enough to buy a brand new one
https://www.auto trader.co.uk/car-details/202203213803633?sort=relevance&make=Tesla&include-delivery-option=on&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&advertising lol-location=at_cars&page=1

Click to expand...

Ok, but I’m still not going to spend £35k. On a used car, of any type


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## DaveR (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Only if you're daft enough to buy a brand new one
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202203213803633?sort=relevance&make=Tesla&include-delivery-option=on&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

Click to expand...




bobmac said:



			Only if you're daft enough to buy a brand new one
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202203213803633?sort=relevance&make=Tesla&include-delivery-option=on&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

Click to expand...

14 hours quick charge....seriously?


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2022)

DaveR said:



			14 hours quick charge....seriously?
		
Click to expand...

Slow, then quick, then rapid then ultra rapid.
The Tesla superchargers are ultra rapid and will give you 200 miles in 15 minutes and for the car above that's all free of charge.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Slow, then quick, then rapid then ultra rapid.
The Tesla superchargers are ultra rapid and will give you 200 miles in 15 minutes and for the car above that's all free of charge.
		
Click to expand...

But costs £36k second hand with 60,000 miles on it or £75k brand new


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Lots and lots of going round in circles here with some folk getting uptight.

So lets have a general Summary of the current position

*EV's do not have an exhaust, so emmissions are zero, they promote cleaner air qualty.*
EV's are great if you have a moderate distance to drive and have charging facilities at home or at work.
EV's are currently more expensive than ICE cars and this is a barrier to more people buying them.
The mining of minerals to make EV batteries is an ongoing issue of some concern.
The Rapid Charging infractructure has improved over the last 3 years, but still has a very long way to go.
Lamp post charging is now quite common in London, but these are not rapid chargers.
EV Range needs to improve and also charging time, when we get to 350/400 miles range rechargable in 15 minutes will be a major landmark.

As more people switch away from ICE cars, the governments revenue from fuel will drop and need to be replaced
is there anything I have missed?
		
Click to expand...

So where does the electricity come from; no coal gas or oil burning power stations producing electricity for these pollution free cars... 

And I believe it's generally acknowledged that an EV causes significantly more pollution in production than an ICE car, but can then potentially caw it back over its lifetime, depending on the source of the electricity and how much pollution has been caused in creating it.

It's a lot more complex than some would like us to think.


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## road2ruin (Mar 23, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Hadn't really considered electric before but this thread has intrigued me a bit. My petrol lease car ends in December. so starting to think about my next car. Since retiring and with the pandemic, most of my journeys are less than 30 miles. Wife has a diesel BMW 1 series so on the face of it an EV could work for me. If we needed a bigger range we could take the BMW. The lifestyle change could mean a smaller car would be OK, as long as the clubs fit in the boot!

Can I ask 3 questions - apologies for the lack of knowledge (and it might have been covered earlier).

1. Could only justify buying used. Is there a real risk that battery life will have been reduced by bad charging practices (I have read what is recommended)?
2. I might sometimes go a couple days without using the car. Does battery charge drop if it's sat (unplugged) on the drive?
3. How do servicing costs compare with ICE (presumably cheaper)?

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

As a heads up, if you genuinely are going down the route of an EV you’ll need to get your order in pretty sharpish to get one for December. Present lead times are pretty horrendous for most of them if buying new.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But costs £36k second hand with 60,000 miles on it or £75k brand new
		
Click to expand...

I was answering the mans question as he was unsure of charging speeds.
And yes, the Model S is £36k, not quite as much as a BMW M3 for the same year but it costs around £110 to fill it every time, especially at 30 mpg, not forgetting the £315 road tax and how much is a BMW service/oil change?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...del=M3&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So where does the electricity come from; no coal gas or oil burning power stations producing electricity for these pollution free cars... 
It's a lot more complex than some would like us to think.
		
Click to expand...

Most EV owners charge their cars at night using mostly renewable energy as it the cheapest energy available, and as renewable energy continues to grow, so does its share in energy used.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Most EV owners charge their cars at night using mostly renewable energy as it the cheapest energy available, and as renewable energy continues to grow, so does its share in energy used.
		
Click to expand...

So at the moment, as it is not all renewable energy, we are still creating pollution to provide electricity for “pollution-free” cars then? 🤔


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So at the moment, as it is not all renewable energy, we are still creating pollution to provide electricity for “pollution-free” cars then? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, but we've got to start somewhere 
What are your thoughts on fracking?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 23, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Totally agree, but we've got to start somewhere
What are your thoughts on fracking?
		
Click to expand...

frack away i say but need some good supervision. We need energy security. Better crank up the north sea and local options to help the journey to net zero rather than importing and all the associated costs with that


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## cliveb (Mar 23, 2022)

Re. Energy security and ramping up renewables:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60837170

This is the kind of nimbyism that's holding back progress.


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## SteveJay (Mar 23, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			As a heads up, if you genuinely are going down the route of an EV you’ll need to get your order in pretty sharpish to get one for December. Present lead times are pretty horrendous for most of them if buying new.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, but no, won't be buying new. it's a second car so will be going for used, hence the question on battery charging practices.

Have seen a few within my budget with, say 20-30k miles on the clock.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			Thanks, but no, won't be buying new. it's a second car so will be going for used, hence the question on battery charging practices.

Have seen a few within my budget with, say 20-30k miles on the clock.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on size but Zoe and leaf would be cracking second hand.

Im eyeing up the MG second hand in a few years as brand new is 27k now so should be affordable in 3 years for sure.. second car like you say.


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2022)

Still on chargers issues.  
I've driven down south this week.  My hotel in Swindon didn't have any chargers, nor where there any nearby.  
My hotel in Droitwich has no chargers, nor any nearby.  
I am all day at work tomorrow and there are any chargers nearby. 
None of these are remote places, but just an example of the work that still needs to be done on the charging infrastructure.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Still on chargers issues. 
I've driven down south this week.  My hotel in Swindon didn't have any chargers, nor where there any nearby. 
My hotel in Droitwich has no chargers, nor any nearby. 
I am all day at work tomorrow and there are any chargers nearby.
None of these are remote places, but just an example of the work that still needs to be done on the charging infrastructure.
		
Click to expand...

What has really set the networks back is the change in policy for car parks to have chargers 

It's now new and refurbished

Not all carparks

Shame


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## Pants (Mar 23, 2022)

Just a thought.  Has anyone's club yet installed charger(s) in their car park?  Was a guest at a friend's club today and their manager was in the lounge while we were having a coffee.  I posed the question and was amazed at the defensive answer and waffle he spouted ranging from "well, some members are here for 7 or 8 hours" to "we haven't really got enough car parking space for charging points".  WTF???


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

Pants said:



			Just a thought.  Has anyone's club yet installed charger(s) in their car park?  Was a guest at a friend's club today and their manager was in the lounge while we were having a coffee.  I posed the question and was amazed at the defensive answer and waffle he spouted ranging from "well, some members are here for 7 or 8 hours" to "we haven't really got enough car parking space for charging points".  WTF???
		
Click to expand...

We have 4 ATM , but they installed the type 1 chargers when it was nissan only. Basically got in two soon.. you can get a converter cable for them but they are due to be upgraded soon to type 2s


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you are doing 350 miles per day, the Tesla S would be your best bet at 298 miles of range and if you use the Tesla superchargers you can add *200 miles in 15 minutes* and for some cars that is *FREE FUEL.*

So on Monday you drive 350 miles with one stop of 15 minutes.
And on Tuesday you drive back with one stop of 15 minutes.
Total distance.... 700 miles
Total cost..... 0
		
Click to expand...

Think the "free" part needs changing because only certain telsas get it forever. This was changed a while ago , some get 1000 miles a year worth of free fuel instead and most now get nothing I believe


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Ah….what you mean is the Real “_real world_” of traffic and deadlines where a 350 mile journey needs to take 5-6 Hrs not 5-6 hours plus two 50 minute top ups (have a coffee and a rest why don’t you 🙄)

I’ve weighed it up, getting a “long range” job and plotting my long journeys verses getting a city car and hiring when I go on long journeys and I think they are just not right for me. I’ve selfishly got my eye on a Volvo V60. 2L petrol, euro6 compliant, she’s a beauty and it’s  only £305 per month. 😁
		
Click to expand...

Ironically traffic and EVs are best friends 

Where as ice cars have poor stats when they have to crawl along and dramatically reduces their mpg etc the slow speeds really eek out the ev range 

For example coming down from muswell hill to the 406 normally is 3.5 mpkh average it goes up to 6 when it's 3pm and the bumper to bumper traffic starts 

Coming home when it's really busy I get some of my best (least) consumption


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## bobmac (Mar 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Think the "free" part needs changing because only certain telsas get it forever. This was changed a while ago , some get 1000 miles a year worth of free fuel instead and most now get nothing I believe
		
Click to expand...

Yes I know, I was referring to the Tesla in the Auto Trader advert which is why I wrote..

_If you are doing 350 miles per day, the Tesla S would be your best bet at 298 miles of range and if you use the Tesla superchargers you can add 200 miles in 15 minutes *and for some cars *that is FREE FUEL. _



Robster59 said:



			None of these are remote places, but just an example of the work that still needs to be done on the charging infrastructure.
		
Click to expand...

So the charging infrastructure isn't there yet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2022)

Pants said:



			Just a thought.  Has anyone's club yet installed charger(s) in their car park?  Was a guest at a friend's club today and their manager was in the lounge while we were having a coffee.  I posed the question and was amazed at the defensive answer and waffle he spouted ranging from "well, some members are here for 7 or 8 hours" to "we haven't really got enough car parking space for charging points".  WTF???
		
Click to expand...

I know some of the big clubs have started to put them in 

We have had a member request for a couple but we have parking issues due to the size of our carpark and we need to use an overflow which isn’t ideal so we turned down the request at the moment - but it’s something we will need to look at in the future and potential have a separate area for leccy cars near the overflow where the leccy buggies are


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know some of the big clubs have started to put them in

We have had a member request for a couple but we have parking issues due to the size of our carpark and we need to use an overflow which isn’t ideal so we turned down the request at the moment - but it’s something we will need to look at in the future and potential have a separate area for leccy cars near the overflow where the leccy buggies are
		
Click to expand...

What is the cost of installation? It's asking a lot of clubs / members to install these unless it is very cheap, I don't expect it is. There are more relevant things to spend money on that benefit all.


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## SteveJay (Mar 24, 2022)

Our club has one, but thats because the pro has an EV !!!!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 24, 2022)

Rising energy costs threaten to sabotage Boris Johnson’s plans for an electric vehicle revolution, car industry chiefs have warned.

Manufacturing electric cars requires large amounts of energy, while higher bills could also deter drivers from switching from petrol-powered models.

Mike Hawes, the chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said that of all the challenges facing the industry, “the most disturbing one at the moment is obviously rapidly rising energy costs”.

“Already before this price volatility in the UK, we had among the highest energy costs in Europe, and that fundamentally undermines our competitiveness, so times are tough,” he added.

The UK makes seven combustion engine cars for every 10 bought in the country, while for electric cars that number slips to four, said former Aston Martin boss Andy Palmer, who now leads electric bus company Switch. "Put simply, we're exporting our jobs," he warned.

The Government has been trying to encourage car makers to produce more electric vehicles in the UK, particularly in so-called Red Wall constituencies in the North of England that voted Conservative at the last election.

Germany, China and the US are pushing ahead with dozens of "gigafactories" to produce state of the art batteries to power modern electric cars.

Proponents of plans to build gigafactories in Britain argue that batteries are too heavy to be economically viable to import from abroad.

The UK was the third-biggest car producer in the world in the 1950s but has slipped to 17th place today.  

Raw material costs and chronic shortages of parts are also dogging car makers, and leading to more expensive prices on the forecourts.

Separately, BP is set to spend £1bn on charging points in the UK, the Financial Times reported. BP did not respond to a request for comment.

BP has said it plans to have 16,000 fast charging points in the UK by the end of this decade, up from 8,000 today.

Last year the UK has about 16 electric vehicles for every public standard charger, but that ratio was likely to worsen to about 32 EVs per charger this year, with significant regional variations, the SMMT said.

Mr Hawes warned: "Things are getting worse because of that pace of market transition for EVs sales. We need the infrastructure to catch up."


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2022)

https://news.sky.com/story/electric...ber-of-public-charge-points-unveiled-12574519Electric cars: Positive news for EV owners as plan to boost number of public charge points unveiled


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

Billysboots said:



https://news.sky.com/story/electric...ber-of-public-charge-points-unveiled-12574519Electric cars: Positive news for EV owners as plan to boost number of public charge points unveiled
	View attachment 41951

Click to expand...


Whilst good news it's a shame its taken Russia behaving appallingly to want to change the norm rather than using the rebuild the economy after covid to focus on green stuff (start a green Revolution) creating jobs etc at the same time as helping working to net zero and becoming self sufficient.

Positive step in the correct direction in the end


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst good news it's a shame its taken Russia behaving appallingly to want to change the norm rather than using the rebuild the economy after covid to focus on green stuff (start a green Revolution) creating jobs etc at the same time as helping working to net zero and becoming self sufficient.

Positive step in the correct direction in the end
		
Click to expand...

And at the same time....
*UK cuts grants for electric vehicles for second time in a year*

Subsidy available will fall from £2,500 to £1,500 – half the sum available to buyers at the start of 2021


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And at the same time....
*UK cuts grants for electric vehicles for second time in a year*

Subsidy available will fall from £2,500 to £1,500 – half the sum available to buyers at the start of 2021

View attachment 41955

Click to expand...

problem I have with the "grants" is companies just inflate the price to get the grant, like the home charger grant is going.. id bet they end up about the same cost in about a year.. once companies have stopped taking the gov freebie...

When the gov first announced to stop the grant for cars over whatever price it was... the manufacturers lowered their price by £1000 to get the grant..

so it can be done.. if it forces the manufacturers to lower costs to get fails its not a such a bad thing


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2022)

But if you were thinking about solar panels for charging your EV.....

''_VAT__ will be scrapped for energy efficiency measures such as solar panels, heat pumps and insulation to tackle high energy bills, it has been announced.

Chancellor Rishi Sunak said that homeowners having materials such as solar panels, electric heat pumps and insulation installed in the next five years would pay no VAT_


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			But if you were thinking about solar panels for charging your EV.....

''_VAT__ will be scrapped for energy efficiency measures such as solar panels, heat pumps and insulation to tackle high energy bills, it has been announced._

_Chancellor Rishi Sunak said that homeowners having materials such as solar panels, electric heat pumps and insulation installed in the next five years would pay no VAT_

Click to expand...

My solar is on order, not sure if the battery side of the order will get the VAT reduction but could save £800. I mean its better in my pocket than theirs 

hopefully will help people make their houses more efficient


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## spongebob59 (Mar 25, 2022)

Worth a read , 
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/


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## Britishshooting (Mar 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			My solar is on order, not sure if the battery side of the order will get the VAT reduction but could save £800. I mean its better in my pocket than theirs

hopefully will help people make their houses more efficient
		
Click to expand...

£16000 worth of solar?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			£16000 worth of solar?
		
Click to expand...

The battery is £9000 , the powerwall batteries are very costly because they are so big (in kw) and are one of the few that can be mounted externally

Then you have cost of the solar. Scaffolding, vat , inverters etc etc


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And at the same time....
*UK cuts grants for electric vehicles for second time in a year*

Subsidy available will fall from £2,500 to £1,500 – half the sum available to buyers at the start of 2021

View attachment 41955

Click to expand...

What does BEV stand for? I'm assuming the EV is Electric Vehicle but what's the B?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			What does BEV stand for? I'm assuming the EV is Electric Vehicle but what's the B?
		
Click to expand...

Battery 

As opposed to a dodgem I guess


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## Britishshooting (Mar 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The battery is £9000 , the powerwall batteries are very costly because they are so big (in kw) and are one of the few that can be mounted externally

Then you have cost of the solar. Scaffolding, vat , inverters etc etc
		
Click to expand...

Ahh fair enough, makes sense with the cost of Powerwall!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			Ahh fair enough, makes sense with the cost of Powerwall!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah it's a sizeable investment but because of the ev I can save a lot more on my electronic bill using the powerwall and having the solar aswell 

Powerwall is the main thing I wanted but the solar is the icing on the cake


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## spongebob59 (Mar 26, 2022)

Was looking at the review of the new hybrid civic and this came on after so gave it a look, seems to be a fairly balanced review, although says nothing that's  ot been said on the thread but nice to get the independent review.


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2022)

Naughty.
For a start his Leaf is one of the oldest you can buy so the range is going to be low on a 24kw battery.
Secondly, the cost for the MOT he quoted is the highest a garage can legally charge. £54.85. It's around £35-40 where I live.

Thirdly, and very naughty, I checked the MOT. Notice when he showed the MOT certificate (which as far as I know you don't get any more), he covered up and hid the car details.
Here is the *real* MOT results for that car for its last MOT...

*VN62RYK*
*NISSAN LEAF*


*MOT history*
Check mileage recorded at test, MOT expiry date, defects and advisories, and view test certificate

*Date tested6 January 2022*
*PASS*
View test certificate

*Mileage72,308 miles*
*MOT test number7179 0029 9695*
*Test location*
View test location

*Expiry date 5 January 2023*
*Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):*

Offside Front Suspension arm ball joint has slight play (5.3.4 (a) (i))
Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin (1.1.13 (a) (ii))

The man is telling porkies to make the car look bad.

https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/?_ga=2.109268869.1861699221.1648305289-2131551870.1642580319


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Naughty.
For a start his Leaf is one of the oldest you can buy so the range is going to be low on a 24kw battery.
Secondly, the cost for the MOT he quoted is the highest a garage can legally charge. £54.85. It's around £35-40 where I live.

Thirdly, and very naughty, I checked the MOT. Notice when he showed the MOT certificate (which as far as I know you don't get any more), he covered up and hid the car details.
Here is the *real* MOT results for that car for its last MOT...

*VN62RYK*
*NISSAN LEAF*


*MOT history*
Check mileage recorded at test, MOT expiry date, defects and advisories, and view test certificate

*Date tested6 January 2022*
*PASS*
View test certificate

*Mileage72,308 miles*
*MOT test number7179 0029 9695*
*Test location*
View test location

*Expiry date 5 January 2023*
*Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):*

Offside Front Suspension arm ball joint has slight play (5.3.4 (a) (i))
Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin (1.1.13 (a) (ii))

The man is telling porkies to make the car look bad.

https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/?_ga=2.109268869.1861699221.1648305289-2131551870.1642580319

Click to expand...

Bob I admire your commitment to the cause but Rory is a fantastic broadcaster and is a real fan of EVs 

I have dealt with Glenn Hopkins myself many times their a nationwide dealer, you still get a mot certificate (don't need one it's all online) and what he showed was their "vehicle health checks" they do whenever a car is serviced , mot or just brought in for warranty work. It's colour coded red yellow and green

They can give extra advise on top of what would appear on a mot


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2022)

He said the rear brakes were 100% worn and needed immediate attention and yet the MOT said
Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin.
No mention of the offside at all.
If both the rear brakes were 100% worn, the car would have failed.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			He said the rear brakes were 100% worn and needed immediate attention and yet the MOT said
Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin.
No mention of the offside at all.
If both the rear brakes were 100% worn, the car would have failed.
		
Click to expand...

I really think your barking up the wrong tree with his review , have you seen some of the others he has done? He is incredibly postive about EVs 

He has posted a balance view that will raise a few questions from both sides of the fence 

Nothing wrong with it imo 

I've had cars go through with ZERO advisories on the mot but on the "health sheet" mentions needs changing


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## cliveb (Mar 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			He said the rear brakes were 100% worn and needed immediate attention and yet the MOT said
Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin.
No mention of the offside at all.
If both the rear brakes were 100% worn, the car would have failed.
		
Click to expand...

Unless something has changed in the last couple of years, the wheels are not removed in an MOT, so I don't see how the tester can tell how worn the pads might be.
If the brakes work as required on the rolling road, the car will pass. The pads could be 99.9% worn out.


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Unless something has changed in the last couple of years, the wheels are not removed in an MOT, so I don't see how the tester can tell how worn the pads might be.
If the brakes work as required on the rolling road, the car will pass. The pads could be 99.9% worn out.
		
Click to expand...

And yet the tester was able to see the nearside were wearing thin but the offside were fine.


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## hovis (Mar 26, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Unless something has changed in the last couple of years, the wheels are not removed in an MOT, so I don't see how the tester can tell how worn the pads might be.
If the brakes work as required on the rolling road, the car will pass. The pads could be 99.9% worn out.
		
Click to expand...

I had an advisory on my last mot for front pads.    So they must look but like you said, if it passes 🤷‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And yet the tester was able to see the nearside were wearing thin but the offside were fine.
		
Click to expand...

Still think you are being far to nit-picky of his video

He's very good in his delivery and style.

He's done so many postive videos for EVs and just highlighted that they don't use brakes a myth






What about this video of his?


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## cliveb (Mar 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And yet the tester was able to see the nearside were wearing thin but the offside were fine.
		
Click to expand...

I see from the still of the video that the Leaf appears to have alloys with large holes between the spokes.
So my guess is that the tester was able to see through and note that the nearside caliper was further in than the offside one.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 27, 2022)

Regardless of ICE or EV, I’d be more concerned about one set of pads wearing unevenly to the other, especially rear pads.

Methinks something is not quite right there.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Regardless of ICE or EV, I’d be more concerned about one set of pads wearing unevenly to the other, especially rear pads.

Methinks something is not quite right there.
		
Click to expand...

Could be as simple as a sticking sliding calliper, was on my old Fiesta; stuck one the piston side did all the work and wore out quicker.


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2022)

At 8:58 he said ''a lot of people say you never have to replace the brakes'' 
I've never heard anyone say that.
People do say, and it's true, that the brakes last a lot longer thanks to regen braking, around 100,000 miles compared 20,000 miles for ICE cars.
He was saying that both back brakes were 100% worn to disprove the false myth about the everlasting brakes.


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## DaveR (Mar 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			At 8:58 he said ''a lot of people say you never have to replace the brakes''
I've never heard anyone say that.
People do say, and it's true, that the brakes last a lot longer thanks to regen braking, around 100,000 miles compared 20,000 miles for ICE cars.
He was saying that both back brakes were 100% worn to disprove the false myth about the everlasting brakes.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the car, my 3 litre diesel with auto box has massive amounts of engine braking. Drive leaving a sensible gap in town and I hardly use my brakes.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Could be as simple as a sticking sliding calliper, was on my old Fiesta; stuck one the piston side did all the work and wore out quicker.
		
Click to expand...

Could be. But it’s still an issue and one that should ring alarm bells of noticed.


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



*Depends on the car,* my 3 litre diesel with auto box has massive amounts of engine braking. Drive leaving a sensible gap in town and I hardly use my brakes.
		
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Obviously, but we are talking about a Nissan Leaf.


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## 4LEX (Mar 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I was answering the mans question as he was unsure of charging speeds.
And yes, the Model S is £36k, not quite as much as a BMW M3 for the same year but it costs around £110 to fill it every time, especially at 30 mpg, not forgetting the £315 road tax and how much is a BMW service/oil change?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202203103397378?radius=1500&include-delivery-option=on&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=relevance&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&make=BMW&model=M3&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true

Click to expand...

An old M3 would be 100 times more fun to drive than a golf buggy on steroids though


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2022)

4LEX said:



			An old M3 would be 100 times more fun to drive than a golf buggy on steroids though 

Click to expand...

You stick with your ICE cars as long as you want, that just means that the free charging at Tesco will last longer


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## GreiginFife (Mar 28, 2022)

So, 2 full and a part day of my EV experience. Firstly, the Ioniq… build quality is questionable at best. Interior is very plastic and the touch screens are more “hit hard screens”. Looks the part inside but the actual quality isn’t there. 

Driving, it’s pleasant enough if a little sterile and soul-less. The suspension is way too soft for my liking (yes that is subjective) and it wallows a little in corners, very noisy tyres. 

Braking system is very spongy at some points and then razor sharp when you least expect it, whether it’s a design fault or there genuinely is an issue with this car I don’t know but it’s certainly annoying. 

It accelerates well, as you’d expect from an EV but it’s not an “exciting pull” from standing start. 

It’s not dislikable, just not entirely likeable. So it’s a bit of a Switzerland job. 

Charging. I have only had to charge it once as it was delivered with 1/4 battery (about 50 miles on the range computer), so plugged in the charger in the garage and left it overnight. Fully charged in the morning but no idea how long it took.

I’ve done 87 miles in it and it’s currently at 1/2 with 102 miles of range. Not sure if that’s good/bad/indifferent. 

Now, the free Tesco charging… been to Tesco on Friday evening and again yesterday morning. Both occasions the chargers were occupied when I arrived and the same cars were still connected when I left. So although it’s free, it was of absolutely no use to me. 

I did find a charge point available at the bakers in a nearby village but couldn’t t use it as I wasn’t buying anything. That one seems a bit odd as how long do you spend in a bakery? 

I have it for another week, so this is just early findings and I am sure that if I lived in a more urban area it wouldn’t be as bad but it’s not a major issue for me as I have the plug in charger they supplied but the concept that out and about is gravy for charging is one that seriously doesn’t match reality, certainly round here anyway. 

I am still looking to go EV next time I change my car but it certainly won’t be a Hyundai Ioniq as, to me, it’s just not a good car. 

As I say, early findings from actually now having to live with an EV. And I also caveat that this is my subjective view based on the current infrastructure in MY area. I don’t care if your town or Tesco has a million charge points, mine doesn’t and accessing them is pure chance or a feat of engineered timing.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			So, 2 full and a part day of my EV experience. Firstly, the Ioniq… build quality is questionable at best. Interior is very plastic and the touch screens are more “hit hard screens”. Looks the part inside but the actual quality isn’t there.

Driving, it’s pleasant enough if a little sterile and soul-less. The suspension is way too soft for my liking (yes that is subjective) and it wallows a little in corners, very noisy tyres.

Braking system is very spongy at some points and then razor sharp when you least expect it, whether it’s a design fault or there genuinely is an issue with this car I don’t know but it’s certainly annoying.

It accelerates well, as you’d expect from an EV but it’s not an “exciting pull” from standing start.

It’s not dislikable, just not entirely likeable. So it’s a bit of a Switzerland job.

Charging. I have only had to charge it once as it was delivered with 1/4 battery (about 50 miles on the range computer), so plugged in the charger in the garage and left it overnight. Fully charged in the morning but no idea how long it took.

I’ve done 87 miles in it and it’s currently at 1/2 with 102 miles of range. Not sure if that’s good/bad/indifferent.

Now, the free Tesco charging… been to Tesco on Friday evening and again yesterday morning. Both occasions the chargers were occupied when I arrived and the same cars were still connected when I left. So although it’s free, it was of absolutely no use to me.

I did find a charge point available at the bakers in a nearby village but couldn’t t use it as I wasn’t buying anything. That one seems a bit odd as how long do you spend in a bakery?

I have it for another week, so this is just early findings and I am sure that if I lived in a more urban area it wouldn’t be as bad but it’s not a major issue for me as I have the plug in charger they supplied but the concept that out and about is gravy for charging is one that seriously doesn’t match reality, certainly round here anyway.

I am still looking to go EV next time I change my car but it certainly won’t be a Hyundai Ioniq as, to me, it’s just not a good car.

As I say, early findings from actually now having to live with an EV. And I also caveat that this is my subjective view based on the current infrastructure in MY area. I don’t care if your town or Tesco has a million charge points, mine doesn’t and accessing them is pure chance or a feat of engineered timing.
		
Click to expand...

The Tesco points are normally taken by black cabs round here..the local sports centre has 10, at about all times 8 are taken by black cabs lol at least you can see online in real time when they are free 

Do you know what battery size you got? 102 miles on half a tank with it being a bit colder out doesn't sound bad at all 

Have you played around with the regen braking?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The Tesco points are normally taken by black cabs round here..the local sports centre has 10, at about all times 8 are taken by black cabs lol at least you can see online in real time when they are free

Do you know what battery size you got? 102 miles on half a tank with it being a bit colder out doesn't sound bad at all

Have you played around with the regen braking?
		
Click to expand...

No idea the size, it's a courtesy car so got little to no details as to what it is/isn't. 

Colder? It's probably as warm here the last two days that it will get through a year, in fact, I think that might have been our summer!

Not touched any settings other than adjusting the seat position and steering wheel rake and reach. I will probably have a look at it, but to be honest I have lower inclination to drive it unless required to. I need to nip to Aldi later so will be interesting to see their charge point availability.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2022)

There will be some who won't be buying the Lotus Electre SUV


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## GreiginFife (Mar 30, 2022)

bobmac said:



			There will be some who won't be buying the Lotus Electre SUV








Click to expand...

A much better looking effort from Lotus (especially in their trademark Yellow). With an anticipated £97,000 starting price, I imagine there will be most that won't be. 

I did look at the Emira as a final hurrah to the IC but with production delays and minimal first orders being produced, I'll probably get my i4 first.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 30, 2022)

The Eletre looks lovely with some really great details to it - doing things innovatively ground up rather than simply trying to change power plant like most others. Absolutely no doubt one of them will appear in the work carpark.

I'm keeping an eye on the VW ID. Buzz to replace my VW T25 eventually. First versions are looking really low on range though which is a shame.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 30, 2022)

Just popping back in

So my best mate now works for an electric truck company - the same guy who told me battery tech will change forever within the next couple of years - so I can only assume he knows something we all dont! 

In relation to previous posts about infrastructure in your city - Worcester is doing pretty well from an untrained eye 

Off the top of my head I have seen charging stations at:

Both Tesco superstores
ASDA Car park
Sainsburys Car Park
2 New LIDL superstores
Multistorey Car Park for the town centre has installed over 20 charging stations
Marstons pubs (I think, if not its another large pub chain) - have 3 pubs all with 2 charging stations in their car parks
Large retail park has had 8 points installed across 2 car parks

Those are all just places Ive noticed whilst driving around. So Id say Worcester is doing alright! Im not an EV driver though so not sure if capacity meets the demand! 

Even down my road I notice about 6/7 charing points installed on peoples houses, its certainly growing in popularity and visibly improving infrastructure.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Just popping back in

So my best mate now works for an electric truck company - the same guy who told me battery tech will change forever within the next couple of years - so I can only assume he knows something we all dont! 

In relation to previous posts about infrastructure in your city - Worcester is doing pretty well from an untrained eye

Off the top of my head I have seen charging stations at:

Both Tesco superstores
ASDA Car park
Sainsburys Car Park
2 New LIDL superstores
Multistorey Car Park for the town centre has installed over 20 charging stations
Marstons pubs (I think, if not its another large pub chain) - have 3 pubs all with 2 charging stations in their car parks
Large retail park has had 8 points installed across 2 car parks

Those are all just places Ive noticed whilst driving around. So Id say Worcester is doing alright! Im not an EV driver though so not sure if capacity meets the demand!

Even down my road I notice about 6/7 charing points installed on peoples houses, its certainly growing in popularity and visibly improving infrastructure.
		
Click to expand...

Towns do well but remotely isnt as great atm

noticing the upturn in home chargers aswell

few more down our road

myself and my neighbour have them (he is a cabbie)


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## Bdill93 (Mar 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Towns do well but remotely isnt as great atm

noticing the upturn in home chargers aswell

few more down our road

myself and my neighbour have them (he is a cabbie)
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate it will take small towns and villages longer than larger cities to put infrastructure in place - just thought it worth noting is all. 

There wouldnt be many villages around Worcester that are now more than 10 miles/15 minutes from a charging point though! Surely thats some progress! These points didnt exist 3 years ago


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## pauljames87 (Mar 30, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			I appreciate it will take small towns and villages longer than larger cities to put infrastructure in place - just thought it worth noting is all.

There wouldnt be many villages around Worcester that are now more than 10 miles/15 minutes from a charging point though! Surely thats some progress! These points didnt exist 3 years ago
		
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with you here. the progress has been outstanding , not enough but its a step in the right direction 

my parents put an outside plug in their house told me to plug in anytime (i havent as I dont want to add to their bills) but a lot of people could manage using just granny chargers and an outside plug

personally prefer the 7kw chargers


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## spongebob59 (Mar 31, 2022)

A new electric car owner has warned others about charging their vehicle at a supermarket after he was hit with a fine. Max Wilkinson, a Cheltenham councillor, drove his hybrid Mini Countryman to Lidl Supermarket in Swindon Road, Cheltenham to do his grocery shop.

He decided to charge his car at the supermarket, as he lives on a street with no EV charging facilities. After returning from a two-hour shop, Max was initially surprised to find his electric car was half-charged, Gloucestershire Live reports.


Then, a week later, the councillor received a £90 fine. Signs around the car park say customers can only park for 90 minutes including at the EV charging points. Max paid the fine off and has not disputed it - but is left confused over the time limit on charging cars, because his vehicle was not fully charged after the 90 minutes.




He said: “I’ve paid the fine and it’s a fair cop. However, it seems illogical that quite a lot of EV and hybrid owners won’t be allowed to spend enough time in the car park to get a full charge.


The Lidl supermarket has a parking limit of 90 minutes
“The company probably should make that clear on the app or the charger itself. For me, this further highlights the need for Gloucestershire County Council to finally deliver its on-street electric vehicle charging infrastructure.


"People want to do their bit by switching away from dirty petrol and diesel vehicles. At the moment that change isn’t being made easy enough.” Lidl said in a statement: "At Lidl GB we are proud to have invested over £25m in the rollout of electric vehicle charging points since 2017 and have committed to having rapid charging points in place at 300 stores by the end of 2022. We are also proud to offer our customers the best value pay-as-you go rapid charging of any supermarket currently at just 26p p/kWh.



“As is normal practice across the industry, car park usage is subject to terms and conditions for all those using the car park. We have signage displayed prominently to ensure that customers are fully informed, and an additional prompt is given within the Pod Point app.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			A new electric car owner has warned others about charging their vehicle at a supermarket after he was hit with a fine. Max Wilkinson, a Cheltenham councillor, drove his hybrid Mini Countryman to Lidl Supermarket in Swindon Road, Cheltenham to do his grocery shop.

He decided to charge his car at the supermarket, as he lives on a street with no EV charging facilities. After returning from a two-hour shop, Max was initially surprised to find his electric car was half-charged, Gloucestershire Live reports.


Then, a week later, the councillor received a £90 fine. Signs around the car park say customers can only park for 90 minutes including at the EV charging points. Max paid the fine off and has not disputed it - but is left confused over the time limit on charging cars, because his vehicle was not fully charged after the 90 minutes.




He said: “I’ve paid the fine and it’s a fair cop. However, it seems illogical that quite a lot of EV and hybrid owners won’t be allowed to spend enough time in the car park to get a full charge.


The Lidl supermarket has a parking limit of 90 minutes
“The company probably should make that clear on the app or the charger itself. For me, this further highlights the need for Gloucestershire County Council to finally deliver its on-street electric vehicle charging infrastructure.


"People want to do their bit by switching away from dirty petrol and diesel vehicles. At the moment that change isn’t being made easy enough.” Lidl said in a statement: "At Lidl GB we are proud to have invested over £25m in the rollout of electric vehicle charging points since 2017 and have committed to having rapid charging points in place at 300 stores by the end of 2022. We are also proud to offer our customers the best value pay-as-you go rapid charging of any supermarket currently at just 26p p/kWh.



“As is normal practice across the industry, car park usage is subject to terms and conditions for all those using the car park. We have signage displayed prominently to ensure that customers are fully informed, and an additional prompt is given within the Pod Point app.
		
Click to expand...

Why should he be able to leave his car until it is fully charged? It is a supermarket, not a dedicated charging station. Not the brightest statement from the bloke.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Why have charging points at small local supermarkets and train stations, surely it's local people that use these carparks. Then park there all-day.


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## road2ruin (Mar 31, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			A new electric car owner has warned others about charging their vehicle at a supermarket after he was hit with a fine. Max Wilkinson, a Cheltenham councillor, drove his hybrid Mini Countryman to Lidl Supermarket in Swindon Road, Cheltenham to do his grocery shop.

He decided to charge his car at the supermarket, as he lives on a street with no EV charging facilities. After returning from a two-hour shop, Max was initially surprised to find his electric car was half-charged, Gloucestershire Live reports.


Then, a week later, the councillor received a £90 fine. Signs around the car park say customers can only park for 90 minutes including at the EV charging points. Max paid the fine off and has not disputed it - but is left confused over the time limit on charging cars, because his vehicle was not fully charged after the 90 minutes.




He said: “I’ve paid the fine and it’s a fair cop. However, it seems illogical that quite a lot of EV and hybrid owners won’t be allowed to spend enough time in the car park to get a full charge.


The Lidl supermarket has a parking limit of 90 minutes
“The company probably should make that clear on the app or the charger itself. For me, this further highlights the need for Gloucestershire County Council to finally deliver its on-street electric vehicle charging infrastructure.


"People want to do their bit by switching away from dirty petrol and diesel vehicles. At the moment that change isn’t being made easy enough.” Lidl said in a statement: "At Lidl GB we are proud to have invested over £25m in the rollout of electric vehicle charging points since 2017 and have committed to having rapid charging points in place at 300 stores by the end of 2022. We are also proud to offer our customers the best value pay-as-you go rapid charging of any supermarket currently at just 26p p/kWh.



“As is normal practice across the industry, car park usage is subject to terms and conditions for all those using the car park. We have signage displayed prominently to ensure that customers are fully informed, and an additional prompt is given within the Pod Point app.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately for Max I think it's a lesson learnt as very few public chargers will allow you more than 90 minutes unless you pay through the nose for it as you're then blocking the charger for someone else. They're simply meant as a top up as, depending on how depleted the battery is, you could be there for hours as they're not rapid chargers in most cases.


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## bobmac (Mar 31, 2022)

Who would spend 2 hours in Lidl?
He probably spent 15 minutes in the shop and then walked into town and did the rest of his shopping, went to the bank, had lunch etc.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 31, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Who would spend 2 hours in Lidl?
He probably spent 15 minutes in the shop and then walked into town and did the rest of his shopping, went to the bank, had lunch etc.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah you have to be careful. I could technically leave my car at Tesco all night charging for free it's 5 min walk. But this stops people 


Reminds me of when the local shopping centre moved from pay and display to ticket issued when you got in and paid to leave 

There is a hand car wash, everyone used to park their get their cars cleaned as you never needed to show a ticket .. so it was like say £5 to clean your car but £3 to park. Made sense 

But then you had to pay both. Turns out you were always suppose to. Just closed the ability to get away with it


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## Britishshooting (Mar 31, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why should he be able to leave his car until it is fully charged? It is a supermarket, not a dedicated charging station. Not the brightest statement from the bloke.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree and this is what’s wrong with public charging currently.

People are greedy, supermarket chargers aren’t there for you to fully charge they’re there to keep you on your journey. There’s a level of etiquette needed.

It’s a complete non story in my opinion. A lot of chargers put a time limit on their use so individuals aren’t hogging them for long periods. It’s about keeping them free for people that need them so people have enough charge to reach their next destination.

We could charge for free when we do our shop but it’s 2 mins from home so literally never any reason to do so and it keeps them free for somebody that genuinely needs them.

Granted if we go and it’s dead as we shop late when we can to avoid queues, if the spaces are all empty then no harm in banging it on whilst shopping as a bit of a perk as you aren’t affecting provision for someone else.

This is the same for super fast charging, for me it’s not about charging to 90%+ it’s about charging so I get home with 20% + and then it’s on charge whilst I sleep.

I have charging provision at home and at work so there’s no reason for me to hog public chargers, when some others may not have that provision.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 31, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			Totally agree and this is what’s wrong with public charging currently.

People are greedy, supermarket chargers aren’t there for you to fully charge they’re there to keep you on your journey. There’s a level of etiquette needed.

It’s a complete non story in my opinion. A lot of chargers put a time limit on their use so individuals aren’t hogging them for long periods. It’s about keeping them free for people that need them so people have enough charge to reach their next destination.

We could charge for free when we do our shop but it’s 2 mins from home so literally never any reason to do so and it keeps them free for somebody that genuinely needs them.

Granted if it’s dead or genuinely quiet and we are going to be shopping for an hour and will be needing to charge the car soon we will stick it on.

This is the same for super fast charging, for me it’s not about charging to 90%+ it’s about charging so I get home with 20% + and then it’s on charge whilst I sleep.

I have charging provision at home and at work so there’s no reason for me to hog public chargers, when some others may not have that provision.
		
Click to expand...

You need to have some kind of sharing built into the community

Unfortunately a lot of people are selfish and it's showing now 

I like the free limits that after a set time it's £10 every 15 mins or something really encourages you to leave

We have 2 plugs we can use for charging at work 

Not enough of us to worry about ATM but if 3 of us showed up together we would do half a shift each. Bear in mind it's 2kw an hour ..so dead slow .. just polite


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## Britishshooting (Mar 31, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			You need to have some kind of sharing built into the community

Unfortunately a lot of people are selfish and it's showing now

I like the free limits that after a set time it's £10 every 15 mins or something really encourages you to leave

We have 2 plugs we can use for charging at work

Not enough of us to worry about ATM but if 3 of us showed up together we would do half a shift each. Bear in mind it's 2kw an hour ..so dead slow .. just polite
		
Click to expand...

Yes must admit I’m all for the £10 hike per 15mins, people should be penalised when taking the mick.

There seems to be some actual momentum now in Tesla superchargers being opened to all EV’s in the UK as other countries are trialling, if it happens that will ease the move for a lot of people and generate revenue to expand the infrastructure, BP also looking to invest a crazy amount in charging as they look to try and bolster their position.

We fortunately have a 22kw charger which can be shared. I’m usually in the office for 4/5am so I’ll bang it on when I arrive and usually move my car by 8am so it’s free for others to use. That’s when I actually need to charge it as I like to deplete the battery somewhat so sometimes will only use it once during the working week depending on site visits. 

We don’t need to do a rota or anything as we have common sense and courtesy. And fortunately an office  with only 10-12 people in of which only 4 will be EV within the next 5 years or so I’d imagine.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 31, 2022)

Britishshooting said:



			Yes must admit I’m all for the £10 hike per 15mins, people should be penalised when taking the mick.

There seems to be some actual momentum now in Tesla superchargers being opened to all EV’s in the UK as other countries are trialling, if it happens that will ease the move for a lot of people and generate revenue to expand the infrastructure, BP also looking to invest a crazy amount in charging as they look to try and bolster their position.

We fortunately have a 22kw charger which can be shared. I’m usually in the office for 4/5am so I’ll bang it on when I arrive and usually move my car by 8am so it’s free for others to use. That’s when I actually need to charge it as I like to deplete the battery somewhat so sometimes will only use it once during the working week depending on site visits.

We don’t need to do a rota or anything as we have common sense and courtesy. And fortunately an office  with only 10-12 people in of which only 4 will be EV within the next 5 years or so I’d imagine.
		
Click to expand...

Think their are 4 of us ATM 

1 is switching away for couple years as he can't afford car he wants so will switch then come back 

1s leaf is still in the shop has been 2 months .. only a grill needs repairing after a prang but car part supply 

2 more EVs arriving in summer 

But 2 chargers even though small make it worth it for sure 

I'll go in tonight with about 50% battery and leave with 100


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2022)

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/should-you-buy-an-electric-car-heres-my-experience


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 3, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.iaindale.com/articles/should-you-buy-an-electric-car-heres-my-experience

Click to expand...

An interesting piece. No axes to grind, seemed pretty fair.


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.iaindale.com/articles/should-you-buy-an-electric-car-heres-my-experience

Click to expand...

He made so many mistakes there I don't know where to start.
So I won't


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			He made so many mistakes there I don't know where to start.
So I won't
		
Click to expand...

Apart from not reading the manual, what mistakes?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			He made so many mistakes there I don't know where to start.
So I won't
		
Click to expand...

It sounds fairly typical of some of the other EV experiences I heard. Real world EV experiences from owner/drivers. The public charging network isn’t fit for purpose.
trusting the public network is just too risky 

I had the use of an EV a couple of weeks ago but declined. When I went to pick it up it had limited charge. Both local fast charging points were out of action & I couldn’t wait the 8 hrs required to get some charge in via 240v. Unless you have a home charger & keep them somewhere around full charge they don’t really work


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2022)

240 miles is the real world range so he must be booting it with no regen on.
He spent 2 nights away and didn't charge overnight.
Just generally poor planning.
Yes, I know there are not enough chargers and not all of them work but if he's doing a lot of miles, he should stick with his Q7 until things improve. Or make sure he has a plan B


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## Leftitshort (Apr 3, 2022)

I reckon you lose approx 25% range when it’s cold & long steady state runs combined. The Audi will be intuitive regen but grated it will have a max manual overrid. Based on experience you get about 50 miles overnight on a  240v. 
If it was my own money I wouldn’t touch one yet unless it’s around town only. If it company car, sign me straight up. I’d make that work.


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## cliveb (Apr 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apart from not reading the manual, what mistakes?
		
Click to expand...

The thing that irritated me was his continual erroneous use of the phrase "kw per hour".


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## Fade and Die (Apr 3, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			An interesting piece. No axes to grind, seemed pretty fair.
		
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Ian is a decent chap (and a hammer) no way would be be unfair in his report.

It just confirms what I thought, an EV is a city car, excellent if you can charge it up at home every night then drive 150miles next day. Wholly unsuitable for long journeys where you need to rely on the public network and regen breaking.


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I reckon you lose approx 25% range when it’s cold & long steady state runs combined. The Audi will be intuitive regen but grated it will have a max manual overrid. Based on experience you get about 50 miles overnight on a  240v.
If it was my own money I wouldn’t touch one yet unless it’s around town only. If it company car, sign me straight up. I’d make that work.
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't seem to have grasped the idea of charging while you do stuff like sleep, coffee with a mate, doing a radio show etc.
He does his stuff, then goes looking for a super fast charger because he doesn't want to wait hours.
He also forgot to mention his Q7 holds around 22 gallons with around 20-25 mpg. I wonder how much that would cost to fill at motorway service prices.


Fade and Die said:



			. Wholly unsuitable for long journeys where you need to rely on the public network and regen breaking.
		
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No-one is disputing that, everyone knows that and everyday, things are improving but when someone complains about having to have nap because he couldn't open the charge flap, give me a break.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			He doesn't seem to have grasped the idea of charging while you do stuff like sleep, coffee with a mate, doing a radio show etc.
He does his stuff, then goes looking for a super fast charger because he doesn't want to wait hours.
*He also forgot to mention his Q7 holds around 22 gallons with around 20-25 mpg*. I wonder how much that would cost to fill at motorway service prices.


No-one is disputing that, everyone knows that and everyday, things are improving but when someone complains about having to have nap because he couldn't open the charge flap, give me a break.
		
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I think you're exagerating a lilttle... the fuel capacity is 75-85 litres, so about 18 gallons. My VW Transporter fully loaded and with 80 litres of fuel will give 30-35 mpg around town, so I would suggest a Q7 would get more than the 20-25 you claim.
Just sayin


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think you're exagerating a lilttle... the fuel capacity is 75-85 litres, so about 18 gallons. My VW Transporter fully loaded and with 80 litres of fuel will give 30-35 mpg around town, so I would suggest a Q7 would get more than the 20-25 you claim.
Just sayin

Click to expand...

I've never had an Audi Q7 so I looked up Autotrader and all the Q7s I saw were 100 litre capacity.
So I wouldn't think you'd get much change from £200 if you were filling up with diesel at motorway services.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/q7


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## DaveR (Apr 3, 2022)

I was in my local Tesco superstore yesterday. They have 4 EV charging points, 2 of them had EV's parked in them but not plugged in to charge. You couldn't make up the stupidity of some people


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## cliveb (Apr 3, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I was in my local Tesco superstore yesterday. They have 4 EV charging points, 2 of them had EV's parked in them but not plugged in to charge. You couldn't make up the stupidity of some people 

Click to expand...

Are the charging points close to the entrance?
If so, that's why some selfish people will park there (even some ICE cars).
Supermarkets really should place their EV charging points far from the entrance specifically to avoid this kind of antisocial behaviour.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Are the charging points close to the entrance?
If so, that's why some selfish people will park there (even some ICE cars).
Supermarkets really should place their EV charging points far from the entrance specifically to avoid this kind of antisocial behaviour.
		
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The problem with public charging is it is built on people not being self centred ..

I mean take our station. They put in a bike pump .. all the local kids used it ...right next to the bike rack. Perfect. Real good idea.

Then someone just cut it for a giggle.

Same with these parking there will be some who park there just because .. or oh I'll top up when almost full 

Same with the petrol crisis how many just went for £10 when if they had kept to buying habits it would have been fine


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## DaveR (Apr 3, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Are the charging points close to the entrance?
If so, that's why some selfish people will park there (even some ICE cars).
Supermarkets really should place their EV charging points far from the entrance specifically to avoid this kind of antisocial behaviour.
		
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Yes close by the disabled and mother/child spots. It was Saturday morning and quite busy but the car park was probably only 2/3rds full. Hopefully the incosiderate ones will have to hang around and wait to charge next time.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 4, 2022)

Well, it's been an eventful 10 days of EV "ownership" which has now ended with my car being returned and the Ioniq being taken away. So how did it fare? Here's my objective take having experienced it (disclaimer, this is in Fife, Scotland. In a village setting with a moderate sized town nearby. It is NOT a city with lots of amenities).

The car itself: It's ugly. Lets get that out of the way first. It's build quality is terrible and the inordinate use of plastics in an "environmentally friendly" car is shameful. The dashboard looked like one complete continuous plastic moulding with a screen in it. The seats, they were ok, I am used to shaped "sports seats" but these were just plain flat seats. Not major but not very secure feeling. 
Driving: Quiet operation, but lots (and I mean LOTS) of road noise from a poorly insulated cabin, at one point while driving on a rough road surface I had to turn the music up to hear it. Braking was sharp however and the acceleration was good, smooth and quick enough. Sterile is a word I used a lot to describe the overall drive though. Fine if you are not really interested in drive quality. Suspension was ropey though, softer than a baby's nappy filler. Rolled like hell in corners - scarily sometimes. 

Verdict: I wouldn't buy an Ioniq, some will and that's ok. But you are not getting a good car IMO, you are getting a passable EV. To balance that, I test drove the i4 M50 and it eliminated most of the above issues, so it's not an EV issue here, just this specific car. 

Home Charging: I can't give full comment on it as I was only supplied a mains plug in charger than was slower than a week self isolating with the family. I used it overnight pretty much and had to use it every second night. I think a "proper" charger would have eliminated this so it's not something that I can fully venture opinion on. I also had one issue where the charge lead had been pulled slightly and was unseated slightly from the socket, so it didn't charge at all and I hadn't noticed. But as before this is specific to that charger type and can happen to any plugged in device I suppose, a "proper" charger would prevent that. 

Out and about charging: Bit of a bust in my area. I visited Tesco 4 times and Aldi twice. In all but 1 case there was no charger free when I arrived. So unless I wanted to wait until they became free (however long that could take) I just had to park up normally and do my shop. On the onw occasion I did manage to get one (Aldi) I was in and out in 20 minutes and upon arriving had 128 miles and upon leaving had 151 miles. So not a lot but some and it was free. I scouted around town looking for charge locations and found that Dunfermline is actually quite barren in that department. Most places that did have them were restricted to customer use (which is fair enough - but I'm not going to buy things I don't need from somewhere I never shop just to use a charger for 5 minutes). 

Charge usage: Variable and unpredictable would be the two words I would use to describe this. There's obviously a number of factors that affect this, but on a few occasions, the trip to Tesco (4.3 miles) whilst driving pretty much the same (30mph, same route, roughly same traffic conditions) yielded different usage figures. Not wildly different but enough that would make me question this effect on longer journeys. Stereo and heaters also had a noticeable effect (heaters mainly as we were hit with freezing mornings when the weather was good and then freezing days when the weather turned bad). Again, having access to reliable charging (home) would probably make me less nervous about it. 

Overall: It was certainly an interesting experience, and it highlighted to me where we are and where we aren't for EV mass adoption. If you live in a city or somewhere with a reasonable populace, it's probably going to be a bit better for you and viable for the "out and about" piece. If you are not urban and can get a home charger, it would be more viable. If you are rural and have no access to charging then forget it. It's not for you at the moment until more charging points (or even charging stations akin to petrol stations) are available. 
I will be keeping my name on the i4 wait list as I feel it's a good car and with the right home charger would work for me, I just wouldn't rely on the "when you are out it will all be easy" approach as it's just not the case here. Longer journey's especially those North of here that I regularly take will require MUCH more planning that I need to do now as what I consider rural here is practically urban sprawl compared to places up there (that's the REAL North to you folks in England )

I have to say that I am happy to have my own car back (and excited by the modifications and reconfig that's been done whilst it was away, dyno is reporting 525BHP from their test runs, although I will take it to my mate's place to verify), much of my trepidation is down to the poor quality of the car though, with some _minor_ additional reticence caused by the "out and about" charging situation. I do believe that it will get better but it's now been almost 3 years since Tesco installed the two chargers and here we are in 2022 still with two chargers. A railways station with none and 4 "large" car parks in the town (all above 150 spaces) with none either. The revolution is turning very slowly for us in Fifeland.


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2022)

'Public' chargers should use a traffic light system. Steady Green indicting free, flashing green for charging, Orange for virtually  charge complete in 15 minutes and Red for charge complete and car now illegally parked with potential fine of £50 !!!


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 4, 2022)

Is the EV world shooting itself in the foot?
The supermarkets dont supply milk and bread for free, so why should they supply free electric to charge those EV's?
If charging your EV was fully chargeable, it would a) encourage people to stay on the charger for as little as possible, and more importantly b) encourage more chargers to be installed because there would then be a return  on them.
Currently where is the incentive for a retailler to install a charger, all they do is cost them a lot of money. I don't expect everyone to pay for my electric to wash my clothes or cook my food, so why should EV owners expect everyone else to pay for their charging, because the retaillers put that cost onto everyone else...they aren't charities.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Is the EV world shooting itself in the foot?
The supermarkets dont supply milk and bread for free, so why should they supply free electric to charge those EV's?
If charging your EV was fully chargeable, it would a) encourage people to stay on the charger for as little as possible, and more importantly b) encourage more chargers to be installed because there would then be a return  on them.
Currently where is the incentive for a retailler to install a charger, all they do is cost them a lot of money. I don't expect everyone to pay for my electric to wash my clothes or cook my food, so why should EV owners expect everyone else to pay for their charging, because the retaillers put that cost onto everyone else...they aren't charities.
		
Click to expand...

I can only speak for my town which has Aldi, Lidl, Tesco and Sainsburys and
Tesco is the only one that has EV charging. That gives it a unique selling point, I'll do my shopping at Tesco and charge at the same time.
And not all the chargers are free, you have to pay 28p per kwh for the faster 50kwh charger and even at that price, you could charge your EV from 20%-80% in 30 mins at the cost of about £7 (less than the cost of a gallon of diesel 100 yds away) which would add 80-100 miles.  Just sayin


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## DaveR (Apr 5, 2022)

Do public charge points charge only for the electricity you use or the entire time the car is plugged in?


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## pool888 (Apr 5, 2022)

Free charging will stop if energy prices keep going the way they are, the free supermarket ones are usually 7kw ones (in our town anyway) which add around 30 miles per hour, if you're just popping in for 10 minutes it's not worth getting the cable out of the boot, if your doing full shop for over half an hour then maybe as you'll add roughly 15-20 miles, but if you're on an EV tariff at home like most EV drivers you'll save less than 50p of off peak electric, hardly anything to get too excited about considering the cost of a full shop. I can see them in the future offering X amount of kw free charging if you spend X amount in the shop, a bit like the money off per litre of petrol/diesel offers they sometimes have.

You only get charged for the amount of energy drawn from the charger, which will be slightly more than the amount going into your car due to losses. This is why chargers need overstay fees so that you pay for hogging up the charger once your charge is complete.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

pool888 said:



			the free supermarket ones are usually 7kw ones (in our town anyway)
		
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We must be lucky as we have 7 and 22kwh which are free and a 50kwh which is 28p per kwh


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can only speak for my town which has Aldi, Lidl, Tesco and Sainsburys and
Tesco is the only one that has EV charging. *That gives it a unique selling point, I'll do my shopping at Tesco and charge at the same time.*
And not all the chargers are free, you have to pay 28p per kwh for the faster 50kwh charger and even at that price, you could charge your EV from 20%-80% in 30 mins at the cost of about £7 (less than the cost of a gallon of diesel 100 yds away) which would add 80-100 miles.  Just sayin
		
Click to expand...

Which leccy car did you get in the end ?


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which leccy car did you get in the end ?
		
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I wasn't quoting myself, I was just typing what some people might say.
When I do get my EV, I'll do a full report, it's probably going to be a Nissan Leaf 2019 or an eGolf


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## pool888 (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			We must be lucky as we have 7 and 22kwh which are free and a 50kwh which is 28p per kwh
		
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22kwh obviously better, although fairly few cars can use it to full advantage anyway as most are limited by the onboard charger to 11kwh, but you would still get around 30 miles in 45 minutes which you cant complain about if free.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I wasn't quoting myself, I was just typing what some people might say.
When I do get my EV, I'll do a full report, it's probably going to be a Nissan Leaf 2019 or an eGolf
		
Click to expand...

Don't go for the e golf .. leaf is a lot better .. better range and make better electric cars than the first VW's


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I wasn't quoting myself, I was just typing what some people might say.
When I do get my EV, I'll do a full report, it's probably going to be a Nissan Leaf 2019 or an eGolf
		
Click to expand...

Whatever you do, don't get an Ioniq...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Whatever you do, don't get an Ioniq...
		
Click to expand...

Which ioniq was it? The ioniq 5 22 or the one from 2019?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can only speak for my town which has Aldi, Lidl, Tesco and Sainsburys and
Tesco is the only one that has EV charging. That gives it a unique selling point, I'll do my shopping at Tesco and charge at the same time.
And not all the chargers are free, you have to pay 28p per kwh for the faster 50kwh charger and even at that price, you could charge your EV from 20%-80% in 30 mins at the cost of about £7 (less than the cost of a gallon of diesel 100 yds away) which would add 80-100 miles.  Just sayin
		
Click to expand...

Free charging at supermarkets is constantly brought  up as a reason to have an EV, what you seem to ignore is that if they all were on demand chargeable then most likely they wouldn’t be hogged and there would be more of them as there would be a return on the installation and running of them.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which ioniq was it? The ioniq 5 22 or the one from 2019?
		
Click to expand...

It was a 20 plate.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Free charging at supermarkets is constantly brought  up as a reason to have an EV, what you seem to ignore is that if they all were on demand chargeable then most likely they wouldn’t be hogged and there would be more of them as there would be a return on the installation and running of them.
		
Click to expand...

No, they are mentioned as one of the solutions for people who can't charge at home, the fact they are free at the moment is just a bonus.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			It was a 20 plate.
		
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ah yes Id agree .. not a fan of that one

I like the new one they just launched it.. its the sister car of the kia ev6 (think thats the name) but spacey looking but its like one of the cars of the year 

but can see why you didnt like the other one I wasnt a fan of that either

your point about 7kw is spot on. 

its much better to use


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Whatever you do, don't get an Ioniq...
		
Click to expand...

Build quality...not good  
	

Range...not good  
	


Infrastructure...not good  
	


Gotcha


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Build quality...not good  
	View attachment 42112

Range...not good  
	View attachment 42112


Infrastructure...not good  
	View attachment 42112


Gotcha

Click to expand...

Actually Bob, you are wrong on the middle one. The range was fine. There was nothing wrong with the range. But if you want a car that feels cheap and plastic then knock yourself out. 

All I have done is report objectively and factually on _actually _living with an EV in my area. No, we don't have the infrastructure but, if you actually read my assessment, for me, with the right home charger, it wouldn't be an issue and I will STILL be buying one when the one I want becomes available. This is not a cost/price driven decision but one of build and drive quality which is equally important as how easy charging is. What I DID say was that if you are rural and DON'T have access to home charging, then it's probably not viable. 

But you keep trotting out the same "Gotcha" to reasoned debate all you want...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Actually Bob, you are wrong on the middle one. The range was fine. There was nothing wrong with the range. But if you want a car that feels cheap and plastic then knock yourself out.

All I have done is report objectively and factually on _actually _living with an EV in my area. No, we don't have the infrastructure but, if you actually read my assessment, for me, with the right home charger, it wouldn't be an issue and I will STILL be buying one when the one I want becomes available. This is not a cost/price driven decision but one of build and drive quality which is equally important as how easy charging is. What I DID say was that if you are rural and DON'T have access to home charging, then it's probably not viable.

But you keep trotting out the same "Gotcha" to reasoned debate all you want... 

Click to expand...


Im disappointed it was the new inoqic as I would loved to have heard your views on that.. but anyways do you think that to get a truly good quality EV you need to go to your Audis and BMW (which cost a lot more) and the ones now say your Teslas , ID3 etc are same price as normal ICE premium cars but not as good quality and say that car you had was brand new same price as the MG EV range (under 30k) it would be a better reflection of the cars quality?


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Actually Bob, you are wrong on the middle one. The range was fine. There was nothing wrong with the range. But if you want a car that feels cheap and plastic then knock yourself out.

All I have done is report objectively and factually on _actually _living with an EV in my area. No, we don't have the infrastructure but, if you actually read my assessment, for me, with the right home charger, it wouldn't be an issue and I will STILL be buying one when the one I want becomes available. This is not a cost/price driven decision but one of build and drive quality which is equally important as how easy charging is. What I DID say was that if you are rural and DON'T have access to home charging, then it's probably not viable.

But you keep trotting out the same "Gotcha" to reasoned debate all you want... 

Click to expand...

Sorry, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was agreeing with you


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Sorry, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was agreeing with you
		
Click to expand...

But for your needs, the range was fine and you say you have the infrastructure. 

Mine was merely a word of warning that for the money, there are better options that the Ioniq in terms of build and drive quality. On that part I was wrong though, that was not objective as it was purely my opinion of the car. But I do prefer my car not to wallow and roll when cornering at 30.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Im disappointed it was the new inoqic as I would loved to have heard your views on that.. but anyways *do you think that to get a truly good quality EV you need to go to your Audis and BMW *(which cost a lot more) and the ones now say your Teslas , ID3 etc are same price as normal ICE premium cars but not as good quality and say that car you had was brand new same price as the MG EV range (under 30k) it would be a better reflection of the cars quality?
		
Click to expand...

No, I don't think that is the case and I can't say broadly that quality is low across all marques. However, and it's a however that sits across pretty much all products, price does reflect quality whether we like it or not. A £75k BMW 8 series is going to be built with better quality materials than a £10k Dacia Duster. 

My exprience of EVs is limited to the Ioniq which I had to _live_ with for 10 days, a BMW i4 M50 which I had for 24 hours and occasionally driving my mate's Tesla Model S (which I think has decent build quality but is a terrible car to drive, personal opinion disclaimer). The i4 ticked a lot of my boxes, not because it's a BMW but because I have a list of things I want from my car and it met most of them. Not all, I still don't like the synthetic "engine" noise it makes and I think the suspension is a little too soft still but it's worlds ahead of the Ioniq, which actually had me quite scared when cornering. 

What we can't expect is manufacturers to sell at low prices whilst using premium materials. It's just not realistic so you have to accept at some point that the quality of product you receive will be reflected in the price you pay.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			What we can't expect is manufacturers to sell at low prices whilst using premium materials. It's just not realistic so you have to accept at some point that the quality of product you receive will be reflected in the price you pay.
		
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And that's exactly why I haven't bought an EV yet, all the good quality ones are still out of my price bracket which is why I'm waiting for a decent second hand one.
Yes I can charge at home and I don't do many miles but I still want to drive a nice car when I do.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 5, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			No, I don't think that is the case and I can't say broadly that quality is low across all marques. However, and it's a however that sits across pretty much all products, price does reflect quality whether we like it or not. A £75k BMW 8 series is going to be built with better quality materials than a £10k Dacia Duster.

My exprience of EVs is limited to the Ioniq which I had to _live_ with for 10 days, a BMW i4 M50 which I had for 24 hours and occasionally driving my mate's Tesla Model S (which I think has decent build quality but is a terrible car to drive, personal opinion disclaimer). The i4 ticked a lot of my boxes, not because it's a BMW but because I have a list of things I want from my car and it met most of them. Not all, I still don't like the synthetic "engine" noise it makes and I think the suspension is a little too soft still but it's worlds ahead of the Ioniq, which actually had me quite scared when cornering.

What we can't expect is manufacturers to sell at low prices whilst using premium materials. It's just not realistic so you have to accept at some point that the quality of product you receive will be reflected in the price you pay.
		
Click to expand...

I'm firmly keeping my eye on the MG ev . It's just been launched the model I want at 27k if that's 20k Ish second hand in 3 years time I will defo consider buying then lease a big ev for the family .. the mg with 200 plus miles perfect for me personally then get a 300 range one for the family .. will cover 90%

One downside to an EV.. you can't jump start an ice car! Had to use mother in law's to jump start juggernaut yesterday


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 5, 2022)

There is something that has struck me recently, and thats how nearly all the private hires, Ubers , Addison Lees and the like are now running around in EV Ioniq's, Nero's ID3 and 4's and MG's. Are they going to be the (affordable used) cars that you avoid after being cabbed?


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## spongebob59 (Apr 5, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			There is something that has struck me recently, and thats how nearly all the private hires, Ubers , Addison Lees and the like are now running around in EV Ioniq's, Nero's ID3 and 4's and MG's. Are they going to be the (affordable used) cars that you avoid after being cabbed?
		
Click to expand...

Probably more to do with Sadiq Khan in London, more than anything else, how else do they make a living without EV in London


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 5, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Probably more to do with Sadiq Khan in London, more than anything else, how else do they make a living without EV in London
		
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Even in Medway we now have EV's being used for private hire.....those though are those cheap MG's that don't even have green glass....


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## spongebob59 (Apr 5, 2022)

How many cabbies would love to go back to the old dirty d though 😉


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 5, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			How many cabbies would love to go back to the old dirty d though 😉
		
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Most cabbies I have spoken to don't really like the current offering.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2022)

I thought the Toyota Prius was a very popular car for taxis?



Bunkermagnet said:



			Most cabbies I have spoken to don't really like the current offering.
		
Click to expand...

You obviously haven't been to Dundee.........
Start at 12:00


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## spongebob59 (Apr 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I thought the Toyota Prius was a very popular car for taxis?



You obviously haven't been to Dundee.........
Start at 12:00







Click to expand...

Black cabs 😉


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I thought the Toyota Prius was a very popular car for taxis?



You obviously haven't been to Dundee.........
Start at 12:00







Click to expand...

Why would I?
have you been to Little Munching Nuggett?

We are talking real taxi’s here, not your provincials, private hire or Ubers


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## Jimaroid (Apr 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You obviously haven't been to Dundee.........
Start at 12:00
		
Click to expand...

I'm quite proud of Dundee, I've worked in the city going on 17 years now. I can say what they're doing here with the waterfront redevelopment, air quality and EV initiatives seems to be well ahead of the curve. But that video is a slightly biased view of the on-ground realities - for taxis the wheelchair accessibilty of EVs seems to have become a bigger problem now than is discussed then from 2019. I'm sure Cabby would have had something to say about it if he were still here.

The main criticism I hear from EV owning friends and colleagues locally is that the charge hubs are being hogged by council, university and taxi fleet vehicles. None of them are free any more with overstay penalties making it all more inconvenient than it used to be, they say it was good as an early adopter but much less so now.

I think the council is doing the right thing, forcing progress through incentives and restrictions, but the real test is how they can keep the momentum and adoption going.


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2022)

I see there are reports that hackers have redirected the software of the IoW chargers to a porn site . Drivers are waiting to be fully satisfied.


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## SteveJay (Apr 12, 2022)

This thread has fuelled () my interest in considering an electric car. Current have a petrol Tuscon on a lease ending this year, but having retired since taking that out, our car usage has changed dramatically. We still need 2 cars but wife has a diesel BMW 1 series so I am thinking an EV might suit us when mine goes.

Having followed this thread and done some research I do think it would work for us, as most of my journeys are local, less than 30 miles and if we did need to go further afield we have the BMW. 

I am going to look at a BMW I3s later (daughter works for BMW) as that appeals to me from what I have read/watched, being the most enjoyable EV to drive in many reviewers' eyes, and I like the quirky look, especially as this is a sportier model. Can't believe the acceleration is better than almost all ICE cars and almost all other BMWs!!

Will let you know what I think. Practicality and what it is like to drive are the main considerations I hope to address when we view it. Whilst it is small I think we can manage as we rarely carry passengers in the back and hopefully with it's seats down (coupled with the rear doors) it will cope with my golf clubs.

I think I am comfortable with the other aspects....servicing intervals less frequent, not run flat tyres, charging range etc is adequate for us (can't really see me needing public charging).


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2022)

SteveJay said:



			This thread has fuelled () my interest in considering an electric car. Current have a petrol Tuscon on a lease ending this year, but having retired since taking that out, our car usage has changed dramatically. We still need 2 cars but wife has a diesel BMW 1 series so I am thinking an EV might suit us when mine goes.

Having followed this thread and done some research I do think it would work for us, as most of my journeys are local, less than 30 miles and if we did need to go further afield we have the BMW.

I am going to look at a BMW I3s later (daughter works for BMW) as that appeals to me from what I have read/watched, being the most enjoyable EV to drive in many reviewers' eyes, and I like the quirky look, especially as this is a sportier model. Can't believe the acceleration is better than almost all ICE cars and almost all other BMWs!!

Will let you know what I think. Practicality and what it is like to drive are the main considerations I hope to address when we view it. Whilst it is small I think we can manage as we rarely carry passengers in the back and hopefully with it's seats down (coupled with the rear doors) it will cope with my golf clubs.

I think I am comfortable with the other aspects....servicing intervals less frequent, not run flat tyres, charging range etc is adequate for us (can't really see me needing public charging).
		
Click to expand...

If it suits you then that's great. I don't want to buy another ice car after owning one

I want a second hand one for work then soon as one My daughters out of car seats I'll get an SUV ev with 300 mile range on lease 

Majority of trips can be done from home charge so suits 

Even if go further they can't hold their wees so would need to stop anyways


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2022)

Follow a few EV pages. One just posted that after 54000 miles they have lost their first battery bar on their ev so that's 1/10 in 50000 miles 

That's pretty good 

Showing that in real life the battery's are holding up well


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## drdel (Apr 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Follow a few EV pages. One just posted that after 54000 miles they have lost their first battery bar on their ev so that's 1/10 in 50000 miles

That's pretty good

Showing that in real life the battery's are holding up well
		
Click to expand...

Mileage may not be the best indicator of battery life. Fast charging ain't good but regular 'flat to full' is better. If you have access to an OBD reader that can show the voltages of each cell that's a good guide.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Follow a few EV pages. One just posted that after 54000 miles they have lost their first battery bar on their ev so that's 1/10 in 50000 miles

That's pretty good

Showing that in real life the battery's are holding up well
		
Click to expand...

What's the effect of that? Does it mean that they have lost one tenth of the range of the battery? So for example if they could previously do 300 miles on a charge it's now only 270?


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			What's the effect of that? Does it mean that they have lost one tenth of the range of the battery? So for example if they could previously do 300 miles on a charge it's now only 270?
		
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Something like that, though degredation may not be absolutely linear.
The first and last bars _may_ represent more than the other ones - eg 14%, 8*9%, 14%
Not 100% sure why they would do that but I suspect the 1st may be a marketing/resale value ploy and the las ist probably for 'early warning'.


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## pool888 (Apr 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Follow a few EV pages. One just posted that after 54000 miles they have lost their first battery bar on their ev so that's 1/10 in 50000 miles

That's pretty good

Showing that in real life the battery's are holding up well
		
Click to expand...

If it was a Leaf they has 12 bars so it's around 8% rather than 10% (if the bars do represent an equal amount of battery capacity).


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2022)

pool888 said:



			If it was a Leaf they has 12 bars so it's around 8% rather than 10% (if the bars do represent an equal amount of battery capacity).
		
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I believe it's a Zoe 

I was counting the bars quickly in the picture it may have 2 more in the red bit but still 50000 miles to lose 1 bar is very good 

Getting better, my car has 50kw but only 45 usable . The other 5 are for cell rotation to make them last even longer


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 17, 2022)

pool888 said:



			If it was a Leaf they has 12 bars so it's around 8% rather than 10% (if the bars do represent an equal amount of battery capacity).
		
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So if a leaf has 12 bars and the owner is upset when it loses a bar………….
Is that the 12 bar blues? 😂😂

I’ll get my coat

Half expecting Foxy to point out that it’s only 11 bars now 🙄🙄


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			So if a leaf has 12 bars and the owner is upset when it loses a bar………….
Is that the 12 bar blues? 😂😂

I’ll get my coat 

Half expecting Foxy to point out that it’s only 11 bars now 🙄🙄
		
Click to expand...

I'll 'bite' then.
More like the '1 bar blues' - as that's all the owner is concerned about.
Energy related if not one of his 'best', I'd personally be more interested in the cheery style of my favourite entertainer's '12 Volt Man' style 



Or, energy related, the free concert he gave to assist the economy of Gulf Shore that was decimated by BP's Deepwater Horizon fiasco!


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 17, 2022)

hang on, its as if the Electric Car / What are you listening to/ and laughter threads have all merged into one

lets not go there


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 17, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			hang on, its as if the Electric Car / What are you listening to/ and laughter threads have all merged into one

lets not go there 

Click to expand...

You started it....


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 22, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517507755162148864😳


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2022)

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/28/self...16550324/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.whatsapp

😂😂😂


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/28/self...16550324/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.whatsapp

😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

see post #2,399 ie the last post


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## Fade and Die (May 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/28/self...16550324/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.whatsapp

😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

I’m guessing you have @Pin-seeker  blocked? 😀


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## Leftitshort (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m guessing you have @Pin-seeker  blocked? 😀
		
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Doesn’t everyone?


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## Fade and Die (May 2, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Doesn’t everyone?
		
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Nah some of his snipes are pretty funny.😁


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## Leftitshort (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Nah some of his snipes are pretty funny.😁
		
Click to expand...

Funny as in laughter is the best medicine or actually funny? I must look harder


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m guessing you have @Pin-seeker  blocked? 😀
		
Click to expand...

Thought that was standard 🤷‍♂️


Fade and Die said:



			Nah some of his snipes are pretty funny.😁
		
Click to expand...

Blimey something must have changed - will have a look at some point


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## Pin-seeker (May 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought that was standard 🤷‍♂️


Blimey something must have changed - will have a look at some point
		
Click to expand...

Here’s one for you buddy 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520115798278291456


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## PNWokingham (May 2, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Here’s one for you buddy


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520115798278291456

Click to expand...

I can apply to that. Supported since 4 but never had the chance to go. I must br a real fake fan and sort this out sometime


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## Leftitshort (May 2, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Here’s one for you buddy


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520115798278291456

Click to expand...

That one is funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Pin-seeker (May 2, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			That one is funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			That one is funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it’s let down by his obsession with Liverpool so it’s all a bit samey and boring from him , but it’s impressive that he still keeps going , kudos to his dedication 👍👏

Can’t believe @Fade and Die lulled us in 😂


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## Imurg (May 2, 2022)

So...anyway...electric cars.....


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So...anyway...electric cars.....

Click to expand...

I am loving mine still. I hate the actual Corsa side of the car .. but the electric side has swayed me enough to want to buy a second hand one in 3 years and then lease a bigger SUV ev for the family 

Looking at the MG ones as they should be cheapish in 3 years so use that for work then maybe a VW id4 or similar for the family 

Very impressed with the systems , and for me it works as I have my own drive and don't drive over 100 miles a day 

So for me it works


Others it doesn't. Yet


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## Fade and Die (May 2, 2022)

Imurg said:



			So...anyway...electric cars.....

Click to expand...

Yup, think I’m gonna go with the ID3 as it’s a work freebie. Probably hire a 2L diesel Est when going on longer journeys/hols.👍


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Yup, think I’m gonna go with the ID3 as it’s a work freebie. Probably hire a 2L diesel Est when going on longer journeys/hols.👍
		
Click to expand...

Lovely car, basically a golf (can you go wrong with a golf?)


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## Fade and Die (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Lovely car, basically a golf (can you go wrong with a golf?)
		
Click to expand...

That’s what I though, was tempted by the ID4 but it doesn’t have the range I need for a bigger car.


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s what I though, was tempted by the ID4 but it doesn’t have the range I need for a bigger car.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah the weight does come into it at that size 

I mean they do a 7 seater vauxhall now I think but some idiot thought I know shove the same 50kw battery in it lol yeah that's going nowhere


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## PhilTheFragger (May 2, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Yup, think I’m gonna go with the ID3 as it’s a work freebie. Probably hire a 2L diesel Est when going on longer journeys/hols.👍
		
Click to expand...

Take a look at the Cupra Born, same stable as the ID3 but a bit better all round 👍


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Take a look at the Cupra Born, same stable as the ID3 but a bit better all round 👍
		
Click to expand...

Is there an I'd4 version?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there an I'd4 version?
		
Click to expand...

The VW ID4 is more SUV than hot hatch
Still a decent if uninspiring choice


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## road2ruin (May 2, 2022)

My Ioniq 5 is apparently on a boat so we’re around 6-8 weeks away from having it. Hyundai have been a shambles throughout the process. Granted it’s not their doing with regards shortages however their inability to tell the truth has been appalling. Hoping the car is worth it.


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The VW ID4 is more SUV than hot hatch
Still a decent if uninspiring choice
		
Click to expand...

Ah ok, I like the Skoda version but the guy at work that has an I'd4 said it worked out cheaper with the I'd4 as their packages were better to get the items he wanted on the car 

Like the Kia ev6 and the Hyundai 5

Would love a telsa model y , may have to have the wife put her foot down and say no because I'm not known for self control


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## bobmac (May 2, 2022)

Tesla Model 2 anybody?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 2, 2022)

Love the Ioniq 5


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Love the Ioniq 5
		
Click to expand...

Which is better that or the Kia ? I know they are the same car but which in your opinion?


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## road2ruin (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which is better that or the Kia ? I know they are the same car but which in your opinion?
		
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I looked at both, I don’t think either is better as they’re effectively the same motor under the hood. I think it’ll come down to which you prefer the look of.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which is better that or the Kia ? I know they are the same car but which in your opinion?
		
Click to expand...

I’ve not driven the Kia so cannot give an opinion
Both come highly recommended, so down to personal choice 👍


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2022)

I'm very lucky we have 2 outside sockets we are allowed to hook up to 

Left home with 75% battery returned 78% battery 

Nights are brilliant 10-12 hours ...normally leave work with 100%

Traffic isn't as bad anymore to sit in because it saves you money 

Going to work 36 mins .. 3.7mile per kw 

Going home 1 hour 10 mins 5.4 mile per kw


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## Slime (May 2, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Doesn’t everyone?
		
Click to expand...

Not me.


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## ColchesterFC (May 2, 2022)

My brother has got himself an MG ZS full electric. He was previously spending £600 per month on diesel travelling to work and back and has now switched that to recharging at home and at work and paying car finance repayments instead. For his situation it works perfectly but unfortunately it's still not practical for me to go electric when towing the caravan or trailer.


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## Pants (May 2, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			He was previously spending £600 per month on diesel travelling to work and back
		
Click to expand...

Flippin' 'eck.  That's some commute   Can he really now do that mileage with only home and work charging??


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## DaveR (May 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Lovely car, basically a golf (can you go wrong with a golf?)
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can. I had a GTD and it sounded like a tractor. Couldn't live with it, traded in for a 3 series.


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## DaveR (May 2, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			My brother has got himself an MG ZS full electric. He was previously spending £600 per month on diesel travelling to work and back and has now switched that to recharging at home and at work and paying car finance repayments instead. For his situation it works perfectly but unfortunately it's still not practical for me to go electric when towing the caravan or trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Jeezus. My 335d costs £100 to fill now and does 600 to a tankful. That's 3500 miles for £600. What was he driving and how far was his commute?


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## pauljames87 (May 3, 2022)

Pants said:



			Flippin' 'eck.  That's some commute   Can he really now do that mileage with only home and work charging??
		
Click to expand...

Not really, at current fuel prices that's a 10 mile round trip


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## pauljames87 (May 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			My brother has got himself an MG ZS full electric. He was previously spending £600 per month on diesel travelling to work and back and has now switched that to recharging at home and at work and paying car finance repayments instead. For his situation it works perfectly but unfortunately it's still not practical for me to go electric when towing the caravan or trailer.
		
Click to expand...

I really am not sure how they are going to solve that one


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## ColchesterFC (May 3, 2022)

Pants said:



			Flippin' 'eck.  That's some commute   Can he really now do that mileage with only home and work charging??
		
Click to expand...




DaveR said:



			Jeezus. My 335d costs £100 to fill now and does 600 to a tankful. That's 3500 miles for £600. What was he driving and how far was his commute?
		
Click to expand...

A 105 mile round trip from home to school and back five days a week, plus additional mileage traveling to other schools to provide SEND support and then football or cricket travel at weekends. He was driving some kind of sporty Range Rover which was rather thirsty.


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## ColchesterFC (May 3, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I really am not sure how they are going to solve that one
		
Click to expand...

The only solution that would currently work for us would be to keep the diesel Zafira and only use it when towing, or on longer journeys, and then switch the petrol C-Max for an EV for the local journeys. But as the C-Max was given to me free when my dad stopped driving and only has 70k miles on the clock it's probably still got another 8 to 10 years of life left in it.


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## bobmac (May 3, 2022)

The Sulphur battery.
Another empty promise or the next generation?


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## pauljames87 (May 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The only solution that would currently work for us would be to keep the diesel Zafira and only use it when towing, or on longer journeys, and then switch the petrol C-Max for an EV for the local journeys. But as the C-Max was given to me free when my dad stopped driving and only has 70k miles on the clock it's probably still got another 8 to 10 years of life left in it.
		
Click to expand...

I mean that's a fine work around for you but I mean how will the industry solve this issue? It clearly is a problem 

On your brother's commute that's a perfect example of an EV being a perfect replacement for day to day 

Even if he leased it for say £300 a month and he owned his own car he would be quids in


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## pauljames87 (May 3, 2022)

I do wish honda would up their EV game 

Ive just turned round my old HRV (sold to wife's mum) it's comfortable, well made, best camera I've ever used for reversing. It's not like the best drive ever but it really did us well for me for work and us for home (damn twins)

Would be perfect for work again if it was just an EV .... 40-45 mpg is good don't get me wrong but 3-4 miles per kw is better cost wise


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## Robster59 (May 3, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			My brother has got himself an MG ZS full electric. He was previously spending £600 per month on diesel travelling to work and back and has now switched that to recharging at home and at work and paying car finance repayments instead. For his situation it works perfectly but unfortunately it's still not practical for me to go electric when towing the caravan or trailer.
		
Click to expand...

I have a Skoda Superb iV which I've used for towing a caravan without any issues.  No way at the moment an electric car is up to the task without lots of stops.


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## Ethan (May 5, 2022)

Just placed a (fully cancellable) order for a Genesis GV60 EV.

Edit: I haven't driven it yet, but asked the sales guy about boot space and he told me he had already tried his golf bag in the boot!


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Just placed a (fully cancellable) order for a Genesis GV60 EV.
		
Click to expand...

I've been pricing up a 5 year lease on a Tesla model y...

I have to keep stopping myself pulling the trigger...


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## Ethan (May 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I've been pricing up a 5 year lease on a Tesla model y...

I have to keep stopping myself pulling the trigger...
		
Click to expand...

I looked at Tesla, but didn't grab me. Great charging infrastructure, for sure.


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I looked at Tesla, but didn't grab me. Great charging infrastructure, for sure.
		
Click to expand...

It's mainly the shape and size for me. It would make the perfect replacement for the big car in a couple years 

Maybe that new MG ev second hand to replace the Corsa then I'll be full EV


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## Tinkerman (May 7, 2022)

I took my golf clubs to the MG dealer last week and couldn't fit them in the boot of the MG ZS without taking the seats down, so currently considering the Kia Niro EV instead. 
Missus doesn't want anything wider than the 5008 we have right now so that's ruling out a lot of the new models which seems to be wider than that (about 1830mm).
Given the lead time on home chargers, am considering using the standard socket in the garage until a proper unit can be fitted.
I can get the car through my business so weighing up whether to lease or purchase outright. 
Would love to hear any tips!


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## pauljames87 (May 7, 2022)

Tinkerman said:



			I took my golf clubs to the MG dealer last week and couldn't fit them in the boot of the MG ZS without taking the seats down, so currently considering the Kia Niro EV instead.
Missus doesn't want anything wider than the 5008 we have right now so that's ruling out a lot of the new models which seems to be wider than that (about 1830mm).
Given the lead time on home chargers, am considering using the standard socket in the garage until a proper unit can be fitted.
I can get the car through my business so weighing up whether to lease or purchase outright.
Would love to hear any tips!
		
Click to expand...

If can get buissness then 100% lease 

How far do you drive a day?

Most people could just use the plug rather than wall charger just takes longer


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## PhilTheFragger (May 7, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Love the Ioniq 5
		
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pauljames87 said:



			Which is better that or the Kia ? I know they are the same car but which in your opinion?
		
Click to expand...




PhilTheFragger said:



			I’ve not driven the Kia so cannot give an opinion
Both come highly recommended, so down to personal choice 👍
		
Click to expand...

As an aside to this, drove a Skoda Enyaq yesterday, very similar to the Ioniq5 decent motor.


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## pauljames87 (May 7, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			As an aside to this, drove a Skoda Enyaq yesterday, very similar to the Ioniq5 decent motor.
		
Click to expand...

Really? I thought the shape was so different I counted it like as a different category almost 

But that's good

That one is on my list


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## cliveb (May 7, 2022)

Tinkerman said:



			I took my golf clubs to the MG dealer last week and couldn't fit them in the boot of the MG ZS without taking the seats down, so currently considering the Kia Niro EV instead.
		
Click to expand...

Did you try them in the MG5?


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## PhilTheFragger (May 7, 2022)

Top one be the Skoda Enyaq
Middle one be the Hyundai Ioniq5
Bottom one be the Kia EV6


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## pool888 (May 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If can get buissness then 100% lease
		
Click to expand...

Considering the low depreciation on EV's (although that could easily change so a bit of a gamble) buying outright could be cheaper. After 2 years and 12K miles in the Model 3 I traded mine in for 97% of the original purchase price.


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## Tinkerman (May 7, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Did you try them in the MG5?
		
Click to expand...

No, didn't really come across that one. Good call though, that would work. Will have to go back and take a look at onr


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## Tinkerman (May 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If can get buissness then 100% lease

How far do you drive a day?

Most people could just use the plug rather than wall charger just takes longer
		
Click to expand...

Good to know about the plug, thanks!
It's only really local travel, so may 5-15 miles a day and then 3-4 long trips a year (airport runs and the south coast, which is about 3 hours).
Buying outright is what I have advised by the accountant due to the high residual values available when selling. I can see the appeal of leasing though, as tech will no doubt move on quickly.


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## pauljames87 (May 7, 2022)

Tinkerman said:



			Good to know about the plug, thanks!
It's only really local travel, so may 5-15 miles a day and then 3-4 long trips a year (airport runs and the south coast, which is about 3 hours).
Buying outright is what I have advised by the accountant due to the high residual values available when selling. I can see the appeal of leasing though, as tech will no doubt move on quickly.
		
Click to expand...

Oh easily 100% that's manageable on the plug 

I do 50 miles a day and get to charge at work off a 3 pin

Long as I charge for my entire shift I never need to charge at home 

However I'd still fully recommend a home wall socket for ease of use and future proofing 

If I charged at home using my granny cable it would take longer than the hours I get cheap but I have my charger set up to give me 5 hours at night 

So that's potential for 35 kw a night at the cheap rate 

I've never needed more yet


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## fundy (May 7, 2022)

Tinkerman said:



			Good to know about the plug, thanks!
It's only really local travel, so may 5-15 miles a day and then 3-4 long trips a year (airport runs and the south coast, which is about 3 hours).
Buying outright is what I have advised by the accountant due to the high residual values available when selling. I can see the appeal of leasing though, as tech will no doubt move on quickly.
		
Click to expand...


how much of those residual values are due to covid and the knock on effects of supply of some parts meaning a fall in supply of new cars etc. not saying they wont still be strong but be surprised if residual values are as high as a percentage of initial cost in 3 years time than they have been of late, expect from a maths perspective the calculation is actually quite close


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## road2ruin (May 7, 2022)

fundy said:



			how much of those residual values are due to covid and the knock on effects of supply of some parts meaning a fall in supply of new cars etc. not saying they wont still be strong but be surprised if residual values are as high as a percentage of initial cost in 3 years time than they have been of late, expect from a maths perspective the calculation is actually quite close
		
Click to expand...

That would be my concern. I ordered the Ioniq 5 in November with an original delivery date of February. It’s slipped a few times and now looking like July/August. I’m in a couple of FB groups and there are people in my position who are now buying second hand and paying around the list price for new but they just don’t want to wait. Once the supply side is sorted I can’t see the resale values maintaining this level. 

My other worry is the unknown of what tech will look like in 4 years? The Ioniq 5 already has an MY23 which has a larger battery and so more range. That’s just since I ordered. I didn’t want to risk high depreciation so I’ve leased this time round.


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## Bdill93 (May 9, 2022)

Saw this at the weekend parked up in a car park - https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-mx-30/ - Great looking EV

Really for the first time it tempted me to look to switch cars sooner - then I saw the range advertised is 124 miles.. so my question here is, would I even get that?

I commute down the motorway every day, 18.8 miles door to door (per trip) with usually about 10 ish miles of city driving thrown in as I potter around at lunch or when I get home.. Throw in heated seats for the winter etc.. will 124 be enough?

Thoughts please!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 9, 2022)

Bdill93 said:



			Saw this at the weekend parked up in a car park - https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-mx-30/ - Great looking EV

Really for the first time it tempted me to look to switch cars sooner - then I saw the range advertised is 124 miles.. so my question here is, would I even get that?

I commute down the motorway every day, 18.8 miles door to door (per trip) with usually about 10 ish miles of city driving thrown in as I potter around at lunch or when I get home.. Throw in heated seats for the winter etc.. will 124 be enough?

Thoughts please!
		
Click to expand...

Take 1/4 off that, that could be generous. In winter it will be more, probably 1/3.

124 is feeble.


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Take 1/4 off that, that could be generous. In winter it will be more, probably 1/3.

124 is feeble.
		
Click to expand...

Annoys me they even make them tbh 

Same with the old golf e 

It's before they take ev serious 

Now look at I'd 3 etc with 200 miles 

Now your talking


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Annoys me they even make them tbh

Same with the old golf e

It's before they take ev serious

Now look at I'd 3 etc with 200 miles

Now your talking
		
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Had a go of my mates ID3 it was fantastic.
If it was the same price as a golf I wouldn’t hesitate.
But the prices need to drop a bit and you can’t get one for 18 months apparently.


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Had a go of my mates ID3 it was fantastic.
If it was the same price as a golf I wouldn’t hesitate.
But the prices need to drop a bit and you can’t get one for 18 months apparently.
		
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Fully agree


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## Lord Tyrion (May 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Annoys me they even make them tbh

Same with the old golf e

It's before they take ev serious

Now look at I'd 3 etc with 200 miles

Now your talking
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, it is pointless. 200 miles should be the minimum. Take off 25% for real world and you are left with 150 range. That is fine for a city car and the commute for many.

Good to see car companies are as honest about electric range as they are about mpg . It amazes me that they are still allowed to keep peddling such nonsense, yes I know it is there in the teeny tiny small print but come on.......


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agreed, it is pointless. 200 miles should be the minimum. Take off 25% for real world and you are left with 150 range. That is fine for a city car and the commute for many.

Good to see car companies are as honest about electric range as they are about mpg . It amazes me that they are still allowed to keep peddling such nonsense, yes I know it is there in the teeny tiny small print but come on.......
		
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I wouldn't consider less than 200 which is why I wouldn't get the leaf 

Even tho don't need it .. it's nice to have a bit of buffer and winter as u say


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## Bdill93 (May 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I wouldn't consider less than 200 which is why I wouldn't get the leaf

Even tho don't need it .. it's nice to have a bit of buffer and winter as u say
		
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Noted!

Ill wait it out a bit longer until 200 range is common place.

Also cheers LT for the previous response!


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## Fade and Die (May 9, 2022)

I went to the local VW dealership on Saturday to have a look at the id3 and id4. Had a look around the showroom and couldn’t see any. Asked the salesman where they were, he said they had one of each car and the two salesman who were not working this weekend has taken them home! Bloody stupid or what? 

Got to say, looking around the cars in the showroom, VW interiors sure are cheap and bland now!


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2022)

Doing an experiment tomorrow now the solar is in

I've got the variable 3pin plug out the boot and set it to 6amp limit (about 1.4kwh) then plugged into car and set to pull from 10am 

Got 88% battery ATM 

So in theory I should be able to top up 12% using my solar free of charge tomorrow 

So saves a bit of waste energy production as I don't have export set up yet , and ofc the age old where does your electric come from debate well it's from the sky this time

I'm sure the usual suspects will pipe up with the normal but oil made that car.. and those panels and blah blah .. but end of day it's as green as it can be using current tech that's available to me.

Happy days


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## cliveb (May 9, 2022)

Re. the Mazda 30. It's my understanding that the low range was a very deliberate design choice. It allows the car to use a smaller battery pack, which in turn reduces the weight and cost. There's a valid niche for nice EVs with low range, and Mazda has chosen to address it.


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## Pants (May 12, 2022)

Bit of an eye opener this evening about charging.  Walked past a local charging point half an hour ago, two 50KW chargers, one out of service (for quite some time apparently).  Big black cab hooked up, another parked in front (in out of service bay) waiting, a Highways Maintenance van parked behind waiting and a Hyundi Ioniq waiting behind him.  In for a long wait methinks!

Just an obversation


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## Bunkermagnet (May 12, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Re. the Mazda 30. It's my understanding that the low range was a very deliberate design choice. It allows the car to use a smaller battery pack, which in turn reduces the weight and cost. There's a valid niche for nice EVs with low range, and Mazda has chosen to address it.
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer about it


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Re. the Mazda 30. It's my understanding that the low range was a very deliberate design choice. It allows the car to use a smaller battery pack, which in turn reduces the weight and cost. There's a valid niche for nice EVs with low range, and Mazda has chosen to address it.
		
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The leaf 40kw had that, no need to go any smaller tbh , range is short in winter as it is 

Plus any degrading over time is less noticeable


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## cliveb (May 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The leaf 40kw had that, no need to go any smaller tbh , range is short in winter as it is
		
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Not sure I understand what you're getting at.

Are you saying that because the Leaf exists there's no need for the Mazda? That would be a strange pov. Like saying there's no need for Vauxhall because Ford exists.

Or are you saying that 40kwh is the absolute minimum acceptable? (The MX30 is 35kwh).
Again, that's a strange pov. Who's to say how small a battery makes sense? If the MX30's range does the job for a particular user, the battery is the right size. The original Renault Zoe was only 22kwh, and it was the right car for plenty of people. (Nearly bought one myself about 4 years ago).


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Not sure I understand what you're getting at.

Are you saying that because the Leaf exists there's no need for the Mazda? That would be a strange pov. Like saying there's no need for Vauxhall because Ford exists.

Or are you saying that 40kwh is the absolute minimum acceptable? (The MX30 is 35kwh).
Again, that's a strange pov. Who's to say how small a battery makes sense? If the MX30's range does the job for a particular user, the battery is the right size. The original Renault Zoe was only 22kwh, and it was the right car for plenty of people. (Nearly bought one myself about 4 years ago).
		
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I'm saying the later, 40kw usable should be minimum

The lower ones were old tech and whilst they still work now are getting say 50-70 miles due to degrading etc 

Considering the cost of cars etc 40 would be minimum to see small users for life including degrading 

The Mazda may be 35 but it's still starting 28k

The mg are starting 27k with 72 kw battery 

That's a hell of a difference


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## cliveb (May 13, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The Mazda may be 35 but it's still starting 28k

The mg are starting 27k with 72 kw battery

That's a hell of a difference
		
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I thought you were serious about environmental impact.
A battery twice the size has a much greater impact from its manufacturing.
If you don't need a battery that big, then getting one is harming the environment for no good reason.
(And you'll get worse miles per kwh due to the weight, so that also harms the environment).

Let me say right now that if I were to be in the market for an EV today, the MG5 would probably be top of my shortlist.
I would probably never consider buying an MX30 for my own use.
But that doesn't mean they don't make sense for some people.


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2022)

cliveb said:



			I thought you were serious about environmental impact.
A battery twice the size has a much greater impact from its manufacturing.
If you don't need a battery that big, then getting one is harming the environment for no good reason.
(And you'll get worse miles per kwh due to the weight, so that also harms the environment).

Let me say right now that if I were to be in the market for an EV today, the MG5 would probably be top of my shortlist.
I would probably never consider buying an MX30 for my own use.
But that doesn't mean they don't make sense for some people.
		
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Resale tho not many would favour the Mazda making it likely to be replaced battery sooner better to have bigger and not have to replace and lasts longer 

Less footprint.


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## road2ruin (May 13, 2022)

cliveb said:



			I thought you were serious about environmental impact.
A battery twice the size has a much greater impact from its manufacturing.
If you don't need a battery that big, then getting one is harming the environment for no good reason.
(And you'll get worse miles per kwh due to the weight, so that also harms the environment).

Let me say right now that if I were to be in the market for an EV today, the MG5 would probably be top of my shortlist.
I would probably never consider buying an MX30 for my own use.
But that doesn't mean they don't make sense for some people.
		
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I've just had a look online at the MX30 and my issue isn't so much with the battery size but the car type. I have no issues with smaller batteries, my wife is keen on a new electric Mini to replace her ICE version and I know that has a range of 120 miles (at best!!) however the vast majority of her journey's are local and the longest that she'd do in her own car would be a trip to my folks on the coast which is 50 miles. The thing about the MX30 is that it's a larger car so the target market is going to be different, likely for those with families who might be using it for longer journey's I cannot see it appealing with that limited range.


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I've just had a look online at the MX30 and my issue isn't so much with the battery size but the car type. I have no issues with smaller batteries, my wife is keen on a new electric Mini to replace her ICE version and I know that has a range of 120 miles (at best!!) however the vast majority of her journey's are local and the longest that she'd do in her own car would be a trip to my folks on the coast which is 50 miles. The thing about the MX30 is that it's a larger car so the target market is going to be different, likely for those with families who might be using it for longer journey's I cannot see it appealing with that limited range.
		
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The fiat 500 with a small battery isn't a bad car but like you say this Mazda is pretty big and the battery plus weight of car make it pretty poor tbh.

124 miles 

100 realistically

80 winter 

I mean it's ok but loaded up with kids and their stuff? No great 

It's like the vauxhall 7 seater with the 50 kw battery just underpowered


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## hovis (May 13, 2022)

I have a 65kwh hyundai kona.  It gives me 290 miles and is a rocket ship.  Its not a big car either. 
20,000 miles later and I have never been caught short with changing


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have a 65kwh hyundai kona.  It gives me 290 miles and is a rocket ship.  Its not a big car either. 
20,000 miles later and I have never been caught short with changing
		
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I'd love that car, it was the one I wanted but the stock went fast

I did a long trip today, 130 mile round trip, 70 mph most of way, air con on

Left home 100%

Got there 65%

Got home 25%

So in theory that's 170 miles range at motorway speeds 

Did my research and had a couple chargers on route as back up


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## Bunkermagnet (May 13, 2022)

I don't see the point in comparing apples with oranges. The MX30 is  a niche market car, aimed at those more enviromentally concerned. Read the specs on it's desgn, and you will see.
Why don't we start to compare a Rolls Royce with a Focus instead,


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## pauljames87 (May 14, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I don't see the point in comparing apples with oranges. The MX30 is  a niche market car, aimed at those more enviromentally concerned. Read the specs on it's desgn, and you will see.
Why don't we start to compare a Rolls Royce with a Focus instead,
		
Click to expand...

Is it tho? Seems more aimed at familys

And as such range is questionable

It's not "niche" it's poorly designed by Mazda who are a step behind the ev market

Same size as the MG which will go further .. it's just the badge. 

The mini , fiat 500 are examples of the niche cars even the BMW i3 is niche

This is Mazda's first attempt but it's like they aimed it for 5 years ago.


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## DaveR (May 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd love that car, it was the one I wanted but the stock went fast

I did a long trip today, 130 mile round trip, 70 mph most of way, air con on

Left home 100%

Got there 65%

Got home 25%

So in theory that's 170 miles range at motorway speeds

Did my research and had a couple chargers on route as back up
		
Click to expand...

Long trip 😂😂😂😂😂


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## pauljames87 (May 14, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Long trip 😂😂😂😂😂
		
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Ah yes sorry I forget everyone wants to drive to the south of France and back in one day without stopping.


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## Imurg (May 14, 2022)

Turn that on it's head and a car with 100 mile range could be perfect for a family with 2 cars.
One like the Mazda for the school run, shops, work, home, longest trip of 20 miles, charge every night and a bigger car for longer trips.


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## road2ruin (May 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Turn that on it's head and a car with 100 mile range could be perfect for a family with 2 cars.
One like the Mazda for the school run, shops, work, home, longest trip of 20 miles, charge every night and a bigger car for longer trips.
		
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I agree that a second car with this sort of range would be perfect for families. I would just question whether they’d go for something of this size? We’d definitely consider a 100 odd mile EV as a second car however it’d be a run around so we’d never bother with this SUV size, it’d be a Fiat 500, Mini Electric ish type size.


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## pauljames87 (May 14, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I agree that a second car with this sort of range would be perfect for families. I would just question whether they’d go for something of this size? We’d definitely consider a 100 odd mile EV as a second car however it’d be a run around so we’d never bother with this SUV size, it’d be a Fiat 500, Mini Electric ish type size.
		
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I'd go for the MG SUV personally 

If it was just a run around then you have 

Corsa 
Fiat 500
Mini 
Peugeot electric

Mazda seems to be a cross over of bad range for the size people want 

It's like the mix and match the wrong way round


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## PNWokingham (May 14, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I agree that a second car with this sort of range would be perfect for families. I would just question whether they’d go for something of this size? We’d definitely consider a 100 odd mile EV as a second car however it’d be a run around so we’d never bother with this SUV size, it’d be a Fiat 500, Mini Electric ish type size.
		
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Sounds a great option. As a second car that does less than 50 miles per day 99 percent of the time it could br perfect, and just because of this remit, it could be a 2 seater mini or 5 seater SUV. Both will have a place.


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## bobmac (May 14, 2022)

Back in 2012, there were only two realistic choices, the Renault Zoe and the Nissan Leaf. Both small cars due to the lack of power.
Today, there are more than 130 fully or part electric vehicles available to buy or lease in the UK. 
There's not one for everyone yet but they're getting there.
I think the eGolf would be a good sized run around for the shops and school runs


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## chrisd (May 14, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Sounds a great option. As a second car that does less than 50 miles per day 99 percent of the time it could br perfect, and just because of this remit, it could be a 2 seater mini or 5 seater SUV. Both will have a place.
		
Click to expand...

We have a Nissan Leaf Tekna,  it's about 7 years old and  been ours for 5 years. Mrsd drives it most days and yesterday I drove it and will easily do 80 + miles. In winter that can drop a bit if the air con is on, heated seats etc but she rarely drives far and if she wants to go a distance I have a Nissan Pulsar Tekna petrol which is very similar to the Leaf so we can swap cars. Point is that it's great as a cheap runabout and one more bonus is that a local garage only charges for an MOT, and does the very few things that need servicing in the MOT price.


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## pauljames87 (May 17, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61310513.amp


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61310513.amp

Click to expand...

People have been talking about this as the solution from day 1. It will be interesting to see if this takes off on a larger scale than niche and whether mfrs design their cars with this in mind.


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## ColchesterFC (May 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61310513.amp

Click to expand...

Seems like a pretty good solution to the problem of waiting for the car to charge. How easy or difficult is it currently to swap out a battery? Is this something that can be made easier by design changes going forward to make batteries more accessible? 

The drawback for this would be that for many people the £120 to £215 per month to lease the battery would be equal to their current fuel bill. Yes getting almost £8k off the cost of the car would be a bonus but would that be enough to bring it down into the price range of ICE cars?


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## pauljames87 (May 17, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Seems like a pretty good solution to the problem of waiting for the car to charge. How easy or difficult is it currently to swap out a battery? Is this something that can be made easier by design changes going forward to make batteries more accessible? 

The drawback for this would be that for many people the £120 to £215 per month to lease the battery would be equal to their current fuel bill. Yes getting almost £8k off the cost of the car would be a bonus but would that be enough to bring it down into the price range of ICE cars?
		
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Everytime you fill up / get a new battery I suspect it's full say that £120-215 would replace your fuel costs


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2022)

I filled the tank in our Toyota Yaris hybrid on Sunday March 27th. There’s still a 1/3 of a tank left. Virtually all of our journeys are local, 15 mile round trips at less than 45mph. Most of every journey is 100% electric.

I get that people want 100% electric, not a hybrid, but why restrict yourself when there’s hybrids already out there that give the best of both worlds?


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## DaveR (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			People have been talking about this as the solution from day 1. It will be interesting to see if this takes off on a larger scale than niche and whether mfrs design their cars with this in mind.
		
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The concept is great but the non green bit of EVs is the mining of minerals for the batteries and this would cause even more CO2 footprint as you have more batteries than cars.


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## GreiginFife (May 18, 2022)

The Nio ET7 isn't a bad looking motor either with prices around the £60k mark expected.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

DaveR said:



			The concept is great but the non green bit of EVs is the mining of minerals for the batteries and this would cause even more CO2 footprint as you have more batteries than cars.
		
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I would not disagree with that. Battery exchange solves range anxiety and charging issues but blows the green aspect out. Ultimately nothing is totally green, it is a con to claim otherwise.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

enjoyed this video



Lord Tyrion said:



			I would not disagree with that. Battery exchange solves range anxiety and charging issues but blows the green aspect out. Ultimately nothing is totally green, it is a con to claim otherwise.
		
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does it? or does it maximize what batteries can do, they obviously would monitor the life of the battery and what happens at the end? do they recycle them ..

they said people could keep cars longer this way as battery would always be newest tech

problem is people dont like to keep things, nothing wrong with that but if they want new that is already the green bit gone

also what needs to be taken into account is mining, batteries , making ev cars whilst still not 100% green is a lot more green than burning and mining oil


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			does it? or does it maximize what batteries can do, they obviously would monitor the life of the battery and what happens at the end? do they recycle them ..

they said people could keep cars longer this way as battery would always be newest tech

problem is people dont like to keep things, nothing wrong with that but if they want new that is already the green bit gone

also what needs to be taken into account is mining, batteries , making ev cars whilst still not 100% green is a lot more green than burning and mining oil
		
Click to expand...

Mining rare minerals, burning oil, it's all bad. I am not saying that electric cars are worse but the battery side is glossed over on the whole, the obsession is with tail pipe figures only. Building more batteries, necessary with a battery swap out system, is producing more of the worst element of an electric car.

I don't know how well batteries can be recycled, what is lost etc but it is an important thing to look at.


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## bobmac (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know how well batteries can be recycled, what is lost etc but it is an important thing to look at.
		
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Do you think it's not being looked at?


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Mining rare minerals, burning oil, it's all bad. I am not saying that electric cars are worse but the battery side is glossed over on the whole, the obsession is with tail pipe figures only. Building more batteries, necessary with a battery swap out system, is producing more of the worst element of an electric car.

I don't know how well batteries can be recycled, what is lost etc but it is an important thing to look at.
		
Click to expand...

its already been looked at

you can get old leafs fitted with new leaf batteries from written off nissan leafs 

old leaf batteries have been used as house battery storage 






thats just small scale

tail emissions may be an obsession but air quality is noticeably different when you get stuck behind an old diesel compared to a modern adblue one and when you get stuck behind an EV even less..


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/357419/new-2022-nissan-leaf-model-refresh-revealed

good to see nissan leading the way again. after plug in grant the new leaf will start from 27k , thats much more reasonable . they are tried and tested aswell

solid option


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Do you think it's not being looked at?
		
Click to expand...

Obviously but then lots of things get looked at but not all are resolved in a satisfactory manner. We have been kicking the issue of nuclear waste down the road from the very beginning in the hope that one day they will work out how to dispose of it safely. We don't want batteries to become the next version of this.


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## clubchamp98 (May 18, 2022)

Can see this being good for people with no off road parking.
But for most people they would just charge at home or work.
The big issue would be all EV makers would need to be the same system so batteries were compatible with all cars.


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## bobmac (May 18, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can see this being good for people with no off road parking.
But for most people they would just charge at home or work.
The big issue would be all EV makers would need to be the same system so batteries were compatible with all cars.
		
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Which is why it won't work as all batteries are different shapes and sizes.
Can you imagine all ICE  cars having the same sized engine and fitting?


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1526896354936737804
this is another bit of good news


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## Robster59 (May 20, 2022)

An interesting article here on BBC News
How easy is it to drive across Wales in an electric car?

As an aside, when I drove to attend my Mother's funeral last month, I drove from Glasgow to Warrington (where the hotel charger wasn't working and wouldn't be fixed for a week or so due to lack of components), then afterwards we spent a couple of nights in Bowness, where again there were no chargers anywhere near.  As I need 5 hours to charge my car, that was effectively 5 days of travelling with no access to overnight charging.  
People may say the infrastructure is getting better, maybe I'm just unlucky, but there does seem to be a long way to go.


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## DaveR (May 21, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Can see this being good for people with no off road parking.
But for most people they would just charge at home or work.
The big issue would be all EV makers would need to be the same system so batteries were compatible with all cars.
		
Click to expand...

VHS, betamax and Phillips2000 all over again 🤦


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## DaveR (May 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			you can get old leafs fitted with new leaf batteries from written off nissan leafs
		
Click to expand...

Ambulance chaser 😂


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## PNWokingham (May 23, 2022)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...c-class-ev-spearheads-brands-electric-rebirth

This highlights a few issues to me if the EQXX battery tech is 35% lighter and half the size along with a lighter and more efficient motor. This tech is 2 years or so away and then the next solid-state breakthrough is in the second half of the decade that Mercedes estimates can nearly double the range of today’s conventional lithium ion packs and the EVs equipped with these units can be lighter, more spacious and cheaper to produce 

When the next couple of advances happen, particularly solid state batteries, it will start to be a game changer to many people - caveat being that the totally inadequate infrastructure catches up with where it needs to be
The impact is going to be felt very harshly on values of current EVs
Will it make people hold off until the much better cars come along in what looks like 2 stages of leaps and bounds?


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## D-S (May 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...c-class-ev-spearheads-brands-electric-rebirth

This highlights a few issues to me if the EQXX battery tech is 35% lighter and half the size along with a lighter and more efficient motor. This tech is 2 years or so away and then the next solid-state breakthrough is in the second half of the decade that Mercedes estimates can nearly double the range of today’s conventional lithium ion packs and the EVs equipped with these units can be lighter, more spacious and cheaper to produce 

When the next couple of advances happen, particularly solid state batteries, it will start to be a game changer to many people - caveat being that the totally inadequate infrastructure catches up with where it needs to be
The impact is going to be felt very harshly on values of current EVs
Will it make people hold off until the much better cars come along in what looks like 2 stages of leaps and bounds?


Click to expand...

I’m due to change my car later this year and have been debating whether it is time to go EV but it is exactly this sort of prospect of a technology step change in the next 3 years or so that will probably prevent me jumping now. In reality what is the hassle of keeping with ICE for my next car if, when I come to change again, many of the current niggles will be a thing of the past. 
Bit of a shame as I had always thought that by now it would have been a no brainer.


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## hovis (May 23, 2022)

This talk of inadequate infrastructure makes me laugh.  Just drove from Lichfield to gleneagles and back with no issues what so ever.  I didn't count on the free charging at gleneagles so I stopped off at asda Carlisle, plugged my car into a instavolt station for 40 minutes whilst I got some supplies, had a breakfast and repeated on the way back down.   I completely get it if you have "on street parking". But for anyone else you are just being obstructive for the sake of change.  I've done 22,000 miles of EV driving in my hyundai Kona with not a single issue. I've been to Cornwall, Norwich and gleneagles.  No problems


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## Smiffy (May 24, 2022)

See how history repeats itself???..........

*"Today we fill up our cars with petrol from pumps at filling stations, but for the first 25 years of British motoring such things didn't exist. Instead, you could only buy petrol in two-gallon cans from chemists, hardware shops and hotels, as well as from garages. Then petrol filling stations began to appear".*


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## cliveb (May 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			See how history repeats itself???..........

*"Today we fill up our cars with petrol from pumps at filling stations, but for the first 25 years of British motoring such things didn't exist. Instead, you could only buy petrol in two-gallon cans from chemists, hardware shops and hotels, as well as from garages. Then petrol filling stations began to appear".*

Click to expand...

Well yes, but for the first 25 years of British motoring, there weren't 20 million cars on the road. People walked/cycled to work, shopped locally, and used trains for long journeys.

I wasn't there, of course, but my guess is that petrol stations started to appear only once there was a sufficient level of demand that they made business sense. And the infrastructure could grow slowly along with the number of cars. The goal of getting everyone switched to EV poses a completely different challenge: that of rapidly replacing a huge, mature infrastructure with something else.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...c-class-ev-spearheads-brands-electric-rebirth

This highlights a few issues to me if the EQXX battery tech is 35% lighter and half the size along with a lighter and more efficient motor. This tech is 2 years or so away and then the next solid-state breakthrough is in the second half of the decade that Mercedes estimates can nearly double the range of today’s conventional lithium ion packs and the EVs equipped with these units can be lighter, more spacious and cheaper to produce

When the next couple of advances happen, particularly solid state batteries, it will start to be a game changer to many people - caveat being that the totally inadequate infrastructure catches up with where it needs to be
The impact is going to be felt very harshly on values of current EVs
Will it make people hold off until the much better cars come along in what looks like 2 stages of leaps and bounds?


Click to expand...

But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?


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## chrisd (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?
		
Click to expand...

I think not.


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## Jamesbrown (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?
		
Click to expand...

Probably, we are in the advent. The EV mark up will pay for r&d on the technology, advancements and problems with manufacturers current crop until mass adopted.


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## Smiffy (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?
		
Click to expand...

My Brother in Law paid something like £900.00 to get one of the first VHS recorders.
Not that long later you could pick them up for just under £100.00
Early adopters pave the way for the masses.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			My Brother in Law paid something like £900.00 to get one of the first VHS recorders.
Not that long later you could pick them up for just under £100.00
Early adopters pave the way for the masses.


Click to expand...

I’ll be joining the masses then Smiffy, if I join at all.


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## Smiffy (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I’ll be joining the masses then Smiffy, if I join at all.
		
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I've been driving electric for the last 6 months mate, and loving it.
Can't remember the last time I went to a petrol station.
And when I see Diesel nudging towards £2 a litre, I'm quite happy not to ever visit one again.


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## chrisd (May 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1526896354936737804
this is another bit of good news
		
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All well and good, but for us to use one of the 15 we'd have to drive more than our cars range is  - except they have one in Folkestone (some 6 miles away) but it's in Eurotunnel which you can only access if going through to Europe  🤔


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## road2ruin (May 24, 2022)

chrisd said:



			All well and good, but for us to use one of the 15 we'd have to drive more than our cars range is  - except they have one in Folkestone (some 6 miles away) but it's in Eurotunnel which you can only access if going through to Europe  🤔
		
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It's a start though and a fairly important step towards the entire network being opened up to non Tesla's. That said there do appear to be issues with some EV's being unable to use v3 Superchargers so even if they are opened up you may have to be careful as to which you're using.


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## chrisd (May 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It's a start though and a fairly important step towards the entire network being opened up to non Tesla's. That said there do appear to be issues with some EV's being unable to use v3 Superchargers so even if they are opened up you may have to be careful as to which you're using.
		
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We have never taken the car beyond its range, so anything beyond its range we take my car, or swap cars.


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## Oddsocks (May 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I've been driving electric for the last 6 months mate, and loving it.
Can't remember the last time I went to a petrol station.
And when I see Diesel nudging towards £2 a litre, I'm quite happy not to ever visit one again.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest which one did you go with?


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## clubchamp98 (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?
		
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That issue stopped me buying one last year.
I can’t see it changing any time soon.


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## Smiffy (May 24, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Out of interest which one did you go with?
		
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I sell Peugeot's geezer so I've been driving the e208 and e2008 but prefer the latter due to its size.


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## Oddsocks (May 24, 2022)

We looked at the hybrid 2008 for misses, and I’ve driven the hybrid 508.  The 508 was lovely but underpowered in size (1.6) compared with 300e (2.0) when you factor in the  weight, I think pugs have definitely come on miles, the 508 was lovely


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## PNWokingham (May 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But at what cost? The price premium of the current electric vehicles over their ICE equivalent is an issue for some if not many. Given the way prices are currently going are these new vehicles going to be affordable?
		
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 who knows Rich. Price is a big issue - and i think many EVs bought in last 3 years or so could get hammered on second hand market if new advances appear quickly - although most are likely on lease so not as much issue for motorists - more the leasing companies. As i mentioned, I think the case fro a car in 2 to 5 years is getting a lot stronger for many if the tech and price falls happen


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## road2ruin (May 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			who knows Rich. Price is a big issue - *and i think many EVs bought in last 3 years or so could get hammered on second hand market if new advances appear quickly* - although most are likely on lease so not as much issue for motorists - more the leasing companies. As i mentioned, I think the case fro a car in 2 to 5 years is getting a lot stronger for many if the tech and price falls happen
		
Click to expand...

I've got an EV coming in the next month or so and had the option of leasing or buying for cash. For me the decision was easy, leasing every time. I have no idea what'll happen (tech wise) over the next 4 years of my lease but didn't want to risk horrendous depreciation on it as I'm sure that batteries will be smaller but range will be far higher when I come to change motors.


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2022)

Smiffy said:



*I've been driving electric for the last 6 months mate*, and loving it.
Can't remember the last time I went to a petrol station.
And when I see Diesel nudging towards £2 a litre, I'm quite happy not to ever visit one again.
		
Click to expand...

Your mobility scooter doesn't count Smiffy. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## GreiginFife (May 24, 2022)

Due to a quirk in the BMW booking system I have another 48 hour test drive with the i4 M50 next weekend. Already had my test drive but the system says it’s my turn and I ain’t arguing. 

Really liked it last time but will be interesting comparing it now the mods to my car have been completed.


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## DaveR (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm currently away playing in a competition.  Texted a mate last night to see if he wanted to join a group of us for something to eat.

His reply 'Sorry can't join you, I'm stuck in my hotel charging the car'

😂😂😂


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## bobmac (Jun 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm currently away playing in a competition.  Texted a mate last night to see if he wanted to join a group of us for something to eat.

His reply 'Sorry can't join you, I'm stuck in my hotel charging the car'

😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Or he could just unplug the car, drive to the restaurant, have the meal, drive back to the hotel and plug in again. It's similar to someone who hasn't got enough petrol left to get to the restaurant and back, except the EV owner will wake up in the morning with a full tank while the ICE driver will still have to limp to the nearest petrol station....unless of course the hotel has petrol pumps in the car park.


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## pool888 (Jun 1, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm currently away playing in a competition.  Texted a mate last night to see if he wanted to join a group of us for something to eat.

His reply 'Sorry can't join you, I'm stuck in my hotel charging the car'

😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

 Is that the new "sorry I'm washing my hair"


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## pauljames87 (Jun 1, 2022)

pool888 said:



 Is that the new "sorry I'm washing my hair"
		
Click to expand...

Some people don't get the hint when someone is avoiding them 😜


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2022)

The new Nissan Leaf looks interesting at £24,790 for the basic model and £27,995 for the Connecta.


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## larmen (Jun 8, 2022)

It looks like the EU is following the UK by banning normal car sales from 2035 onwards. Can’t remember the UK date, but it is in the same ball park,


And, while I am not a van person or hippy, I came across advertising for the ID.buzz this week, now that seems like a practical ‘car’ for a family.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2022)

larmen said:



			It looks like the EU is following the UK by banning normal car sales from 2035 onwards. Can’t remember the UK date, but it is in the same ball park,


And, while I am not a van person or hippy, I came across advertising for the ID.buzz this week, now that seems like a practical ‘car’ for a family.
		
Click to expand...

2030 ice cars 
2035 hybrid


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## PNWokingham (Jun 8, 2022)

Feck the targets. Let market forces dictate the when things are not sold by as new tech will evolve rapidly. Get fracking. Get drilling in the North Sea. Secure our energy needs etc without relying on dodgy nations and cut the transport costs and provide local jobs. Time for a rethink - although the end game will likely be the same but not forced by an arbitrary Time-line thought up  swampy and no big green levees.


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## Robster59 (Jun 15, 2022)

Chatting to one of my work colleagues yesterday.  He tows a caravan and the tax saving on electric company cars is massive, so he looked at a Mercedes EQC.  Range on it is 250 miles and he said it seemed to perform pretty much to that.  He liked it because of way it drove, and the power. 
BUT.... He was told that if towing, the range would drop by half.  So he connected it to his caravan and tried it out and he reckons he will get 70 miles on a total charge towing his caravan.  So absolutely still not suitable for towing.


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## road2ruin (Jun 15, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Chatting to one of my work colleagues yesterday.  He tows a caravan and the tax saving on electric company cars is massive, so he looked at a Mercedes EQC.  Range on it is 250 miles and he said it seemed to perform pretty much to that.  He liked it because of way it drove, and the power.
BUT.... He was told that if towing, the range would drop by half.  So he connected it to his caravan and tried it out and he reckons he will get 70 miles on a total charge towing his caravan.  So absolutely still not suitable for towing.
		
Click to expand...

I’m in the FB group for the Ioniq 5 and there are a few in there who tow caravans. Real world range is 280 miles, towing range is 120/130 give or take. Most seem to plan accordingly but you’re right, really does make any longer journeys an issue which is really the purpose of caravanning in almost cases.


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## Smiffy (Jun 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			We looked at the hybrid 2008 for misses, and I’ve driven the hybrid 508.  The 508 was lovely but underpowered in size (1.6) compared with 300e (2.0) when you factor in the  weight, I think pugs have definitely come on miles, the 508 was lovely
		
Click to expand...

You must mean the hybrid 3008 mate. They don't do the 2008 in Hybrid, only full electric.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 15, 2022)

Must be the 3008 then, she keeps looking at them driving about.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I’m in the FB group for the Ioniq 5 and there are a few in there who tow caravans. Real world range is 280 miles, towing range is 120/130 give or take. Most seem to plan accordingly but you’re right, really does make any longer journeys an issue which is really the purpose of caravanning in almost cases.
		
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The other big issue at the minute is the design of the infrastructure. Almost all of the current EV charging points are single parking bays. What are you meant to do with your caravan while you use one? You have to pull up in a car park, unhook the caravan and secure it, drive round to the charging space, charge the car, drive back round to the car park, hook up to the caravan and then continue your journey. There needs to be charging bays where you can pull in with a caravan attached, charge up the car and then pull straight out to continue your journey. Towing ability and range is the main reason that I don't think that EV will be the ultimate answer to removing ICE vehicles from the road. I think that hydrogen fuel cell technology will ultimately be what consigns ICE vehicles to the history books.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 15, 2022)

I registered my interest in the BMW i4 in June last year and today got an email from BMW saying that the ‘registration group’ that I am in can expect deliveries to start in July… of 2024!

Having had two extended test drives (48 hours each time) I definitely still want one but it will be old hat and probably face lifted before I even get a build slot.


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## cliveb (Jun 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I’m in the FB group for the Ioniq 5 and there are a few in there who tow caravans. Real world range is 280 miles, towing range is 120/130 give or take. Most seem to plan accordingly but you’re right, really does make any longer journeys an issue which is really the purpose of caravanning in almost cases.
		
Click to expand...

If a switch to EVs results in the extinction of caravans being towed on public roads, it can't come soon enough.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 15, 2022)

Without going through 2500 posts, from a personal owned perspective has anyone actually checked if a EV/HYBRID is more cost effective to run that a conventional Ice powered car?

With the rise in both fuel costs and electricity, aside from a BIK saving of its a company car im curious if the savings on running cost still swing in favour of EV? 

The last calcs were diesel at 1.50p per litre with 50mpg, and domestic electric being around 25p p/kw.  With the increase in diesel being 33% but the increase in domestic energy being closer to 50%, im just curious how the numbers are stacking up now on a personal ownership front.


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## road2ruin (Jun 15, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Without going through 2500 posts, from a personal owned perspective has anyone actually checked if a EV/HYBRID is more cost effective to run that a conventional Ice powered car?

With the rise in both fuel costs and electricity, aside from a BIK saving of its a company car im curious if the savings on running cost still swing in favour of EV?

The last calcs were diesel at 1.50p per litre with 50mpg, and domestic electric being around 25p p/kw.  With the increase in diesel being 33% but the increase in domestic energy being closer to 50%, im just curious how the numbers are stacking up now on a personal ownership front.
		
Click to expand...

I can only comment from the point of view of having my present motor that does 230 miles to a tank and costs £100 to fill up. The incoming EV will do around 240 miles and if I charge at night will cost £14 assuming a 0-100% charge and even the daytime rate would be £24. 

Servicing costs are the huge saving though, the EV running costs are a fraction of the ICE from the various FB posts I’ve seen.


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## cliveb (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Without going through 2500 posts, from a personal owned perspective has anyone actually checked if a EV/HYBRID is more cost effective to run that a conventional Ice powered car?

With the rise in both fuel costs and electricity, aside from a BIK saving of its a company car im curious if the savings on running cost still swing in favour of EV?

The last calcs were diesel at 1.50p per litre with 50mpg, and domestic electric being around 25p p/kw.  With the increase in diesel being 33% but the increase in domestic energy being closer to 50%, im just curious how the numbers are stacking up now on a personal ownership front.
		
Click to expand...

VERY rough figures:
Fuel is £2 per litre, ICE car does about 10 miles per litre, so 20p per mile.
Electricity is 30p per kWh, EV does about 3 miles per kWh, so 10p per mile.

But from a *personal ownership * pov, up front purchase price is about £10k more, so payback comes after about 100,000 miles.

Once again, I must emphasize these are VERY rough figures.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Without going through 2500 posts, from a personal owned perspective has anyone actually checked if a EV/HYBRID is more cost effective to run that a conventional Ice powered car?

With the rise in both fuel costs and electricity, aside from a BIK saving of its a company car im curious if the savings on running cost still swing in favour of EV?

The last calcs were diesel at 1.50p per litre with 50mpg, and domestic electric being around 25p p/kw.  With the increase in diesel being 33% but the increase in domestic energy being closer to 50%, im just curious how the numbers are stacking up now on a personal ownership front.
		
Click to expand...

If you have a home charger yes. Octopus tarif only went up to 7.5p a kw

If you don't have a home charger and pay between 35-50p a kw it's still cost effective as petrol has risen so much

Quick fag maths

45 kw battery at 50p costs £22.50

At 4 miles per kw would be 180 miles for that £22.50

Car at a generous 50mpg to go 180 miles is 3.6 gallons which at £1.85 a litre is £30

Now that's to extremes cars will do lower mpg putting that costs up

And charging at home at night at 7.5p would cost £3.4 to go 180 miles

So really depends on set up


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## Smiffy (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Must be the 3008 then, she keeps looking at them driving about.
		
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3008 Hybrid is good, but my money would be going into a 2008 electric.
Lovely car.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I can only comment from the point of view of having my present motor that does 230 miles to a tank and costs £100 to fill up. The incoming EV will do around 240 miles and if I charge at night will cost £14 assuming a 0-100% charge and even the daytime rate would be £24.

Servicing costs are the huge saving though, the EV running costs are a fraction of the ICE from the various FB posts I’ve seen.
		
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Blimey, what car do you drive that costs £100 to fill and only does 230 miles on it? That isn't a great comparison, it's hugely inefficient (or just drinks fuel for fun).

Clearly there is still a big saving to be made though.


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## Smiffy (Jun 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Blimey, what do you drive that costs £100 to fill and only does 230 miles on it?
		
Click to expand...

That would be an Airbus A320 neo 
😁😁😁


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## DaveR (Jun 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Blimey, what car do you drive that costs £100 to fill and only does 230 miles on it? That isn't a great comparison, it's hugely inefficient (or just drinks fuel for fun).

Clearly there is still a big saving to be made though.
		
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Agreed but I just did a quick calculation. The EV above works out at 5.8p per mile based on night rates. My diesel car will do 600 miles on a tank on a motorway run and costs £100 to fill up so that's 16p a mile. As soon as there is an affordable EV with a decent range I will seriously consider changing.


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			As soon as there is an affordable EV with a decent range I will seriously consider changing.
		
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What would you consider a decent range?


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## Oddsocks (Jun 16, 2022)

cliveb said:



			VERY rough figures:
Fuel is £2 per litre, ICE car does about 10 miles per litre, so 20p per mile.
Electricity is 30p per kWh, EV does about 3 miles per kWh, so 10p per mile.

But from a *personal ownership * pov, up front purchase price is about £10k more, so payback comes after about 100,000 miles.

Once again, I must emphasize these are VERY rough figures.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair your iCE miles are about bang on for my current a4 tdi, can I ask what EV you have based the 3m per KW on?

Also I’m aware things like air on, heating, lights etc have a big effect on EV range.


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## Whereditgo (Jun 16, 2022)

The fuel costs are currently skewed though, as the number of EV's increase and ICE reduce the revenue losses to government will be huge and a different form of taxation will need to be applied to recoup the missing £££ from the motorist.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			To be fair your iCE miles are about bang on for my current a4 tdi, can I ask what EV you have based the 3m per KW on?

Also I’m aware things like air on, heating, lights etc have a big effect on EV range.
		
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For example I got 4.5 coming home yesterday with air con on

Heating is becoming less of an issue as they have heat pumps now which use such low energy 

Lights use led now .. which are low effect 

It's not the big affect that it was before 

That's 4.5 with air con and lights on


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## DaveR (Jun 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What would you consider a decent range?
		
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It would need to be at least 300 motorway miles. I'm down south and I have family in Scotland plus I do long trips to play in competitions. I know lots of cars have quoted ranges of 250-300 miles but that plummets once you are out of town and driving at speed.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Whereditgo said:



			The fuel costs are currently skewed though, as the number of EV's increase and ICE reduce the revenue losses to government will be huge and a different form of taxation will need to be applied to recoup the missing £££ from the motorist.
		
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Once enough people switch no doubt it will become the same amount costs as driving an ice. 

It's like their banning of smoking for people born today and take the age forward and forward .. that's loss in tax will need to be made up


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## cliveb (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			To be fair your iCE miles are about bang on for my current a4 tdi, can I ask what EV you have based the 3m per KW on?

Also I’m aware things like air on, heating, lights etc have a big effect on EV range.
		
Click to expand...

On a good day you'll get 4 miles per kwh, but overall, including winter, it'll go down. But if you want to be picky I'll grant you 3.5 miles per kwh.
Then again, 10 miles per litre is only 45 mpg, and plenty of ICE cars do better than that.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

If I went onto the new day rate of 33p I could charge for cheaper at Lidl for 26p

£11.7 to charge the car fully at 26p

I should add my night rate would be 7.5 p so still £3.40


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## Oddsocks (Jun 16, 2022)

Isn’t there a rule about shopping at Lidl to charge in Lidl? I suppose although a ball ache it’s not a lot different to stopping at the local cheapest station to fill up.

Re Clive’s response, this is kinda my point.  On a motorway in efficient im sure I get close to 55mpg.

The other option is a p&p hybrid but based on my experience with the 330e, it was simply for tax purposes as it chewed the first 20 mile charge before it went into petrol race mode.  I think I’d have to jump to a diesel plug in hybrid.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Isn’t there a rule about shopping at Lidl to charge in Lidl? I suppose although a ball ache it’s not a lot different to stopping at the local cheapest station to fill up.

Re Clive’s response, this is kinda my point.  On a motorway in efficient im sure I get close to 55mpg.

The other option is a p&p hybrid but based on my experience with the 330e, it was simply for tax purposes as it chewed the first 20 mile charge before it went into petrol race mode.  I think I’d have to jump to a diesel plug in hybrid.
		
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There isn't a rule at my Lidl but our car park is a town car park aswell 

Irony you see now is people slowly down to conserve fuel because of the costs but if they said drive at 60 for better range from an EV nobody would consider doing it 

I drove motorway speeds today and averaged 4 miles per kw . 2 of us plus 2 sets of clubs


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 16, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Agreed but I just did a quick calculation. The EV above works out at 5.8p per mile based on night rates. My diesel car will do 600 miles on a tank on a motorway run and costs £100 to fill up so that's 16p a mile. As soon as there is an *affordable* EV with a *decent range* I will seriously consider changing.
		
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I think most of us are in this camp to be fair. It is just a matter of when it happens.

I agree with your later post, reply to Bob. I do 200 odd mile journeys, round trip and each way, and I don't want the current stress of charging multiple times en route.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There isn't a rule at my Lidl but our car park is a town car park aswell 

Irony you see now is people slowly down to conserve fuel because of the costs but if they said drive at 60 for better range from an EV nobody would consider doing it 

I drove motorway speeds today and averaged 4 miles per kw . 2 of us plus 2 sets of clubs
		
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It’s almost like people can’t afford to race around in an ICE so EV was the move.  I have a few pals with model 3’s and when I ask what they think the default response is “ it’s fast “

Thanks not the question. 😂😂


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## road2ruin (Jun 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Blimey, what car do you drive that costs £100 to fill and only does 230 miles on it? That isn't a great comparison, it's hugely inefficient (or just drinks fuel for fun).

Clearly there is still a big saving to be made though.
		
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500bhp Audi S4 Avant, mainly doing local miles so the least efficient way of driving it. It was a little better on motorway driving, could sometime get close to 290 miles on the really long journeys!!


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## road2ruin (Jun 16, 2022)

Another cost in the ICE vs EV discussion which I don't think has been mentioned (apologies if it has) are the servicing costs. My service was anywhere between £300-600 a year (appreciate that it at the top end) and my wife's Mini One has just had the 3 yearly 'major service' and that cost £399. From what I gather then Hyundai is a fraction of that as they have little to actually tinker with.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			500bhp Audi S4 Avant, mainly doing local miles so the least efficient way of driving it. It was a little better on motorway driving, could sometime get close to 290 miles on the really long journeys!! 

Click to expand...

S4 or RS4?

I’d suffer that mileage on the RS with a huge smile.


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## road2ruin (Jun 16, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			S4 or RS4?

I’d suffer that mileage on the RS with a huge smile.
		
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It was an S4. Was looking at both when I bought however the garage I’d used previously recommended the S4 if I wanted to modify it as it was cheaper to do and the gains were larger. Was a lot of fun for the 5 years that I had it!!


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Another cost in the ICE vs EV discussion which I don't think has been mentioned (apologies if it has) are the servicing costs. My service was anywhere between £300-600 a year (appreciate that it at the top end) and my wife's Mini One has just had the 3 yearly 'major service' and that cost £399. From what I gather then Hyundai is a fraction of that as they have little to actually tinker with.
		
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Depends on dealer vauxhall want £250 for nothing 

Another vauxhall £150 lol


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## Jimaroid (Jun 16, 2022)

Got the hated bmw serviced yesterday. The most expensive single item in the service kit was the oil, now £11 a litre.


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## road2ruin (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Depends on dealer vauxhall want £250 for nothing

Another vauxhall £150 lol
		
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Hyundai in Epsom were quoting £89 which didn't sound too bad.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 16, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Got the hated bmw serviced yesterday. The most expensive single item in the service kit was the oil, *now £11 a litre*. 

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Blimey that's cheap. I just had to top up mine by a litre. Mobil 1 0W30 (recommended for my engine) and it was £17 a litre and that was with my trade discount card!


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## Jimaroid (Jun 16, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Blimey that's cheap. I just had to top up mine by a litre. Mobil 1 0W30 (recommended for my engine) and it was £17 a litre and that was with my trade discount card!
		
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My heap can suffer with lowly Comma. Hopefully it’ll get binned soon.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Hyundai in Epsom were quoting £89 which didn't sound too bad.
		
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First service is an inspection check the full service incase


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## spongebob59 (Jun 16, 2022)

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/c...tm_source=campaign monitor&utm_term=Read more


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## pauljames87 (Jun 16, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/car-market-1/2022-06/electric-car-grant-scrapped/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter 16 June 2022&utm_content=Newsletter 16 June 2022+CID_5941fd23df643da717b34ab419a695b9&utm_source=campaign monitor&utm_term=Read more

Click to expand...

Without getting political. This is the problem we have with our gov. With one hand they ban ice from 2030 and give us warning etc 

With the other they hold back ev .. no grant? Shocking. Couple months ago the all car parks charger law became all new or refurb car parks

We should be doubling down on EVs and making a green economy boom n


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## Fade and Die (Jun 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Without getting political. This is the problem we have with our gov. With one hand they ban ice from 2030 and give us warning etc

With the other they hold back ev .. no grant? Shocking. Couple months ago the all car parks charger law became all new or refurb car parks

We should be doubling down on EVs and making a green economy boom n
		
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Impossible not to be political when discussing EVs, all the benefits of getting one are very much at the whim of the government. BIK tax, no road tax, no congestion charge. All very much in the hands of the ruling party. 
Personally I have decided not to get one. Even though it would be virtually free I just don’t think it would work for me. (Pricing up a big estate for two weeks hire this summer was a bit of an eye opener!) I’ve extended the lease on my XC40 for another 12 months and will see if anything happens over the next year to change my mind.


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## bobmac (Jun 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			We should be doubling down on EVs and making a green economy boom n
		
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From what I gather, the money they will save on cancelling the grant will be spent on improving the charging infrastructure, so not all bad news


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## Smiffy (Jun 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			It would need to be at least 300 motorway miles. I'm down south and I have family in Scotland plus I do long trips to play in competitions. I know lots of cars have quoted ranges of 250-300 miles but that plummets once you are out of town and driving at speed.
		
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Yep. I used my e2008 to get to a golf course in Surrey a couple of weeks ago. Fully charged when I left, I had over 210 miles showing. Got to the club (which was 78 miles away) with only 92 miles or thereabouts showing as range left.
I had travelled to the course using the dual carriageways A27 and A23 so had been tramping along at "motorway speeds".
Got to be honest, I was a bit concerned. I had used a theoretical 118 miles of range to travel 78 miles..... was I going to get home okay with 78 miles left to run with only 92 miles showing as available.
I made the decision to drive the slower route home, and keep my speeds down to around 50mph, no unnecessary overtaking or acceleration etc. Got home with 30 miles still showing!!
Work that one out


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## bobmac (Jun 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Yep. I used my e2008 to get to a golf course in Surrey a couple of weeks ago. Fully charged when I left, I had over 210 miles showing. Got to the club (which was 78 miles away) with only 92 miles or thereabouts showing as range left.
I had travelled to the course using the dual carriageways A27 and A23 so had been tramping along at "motorway speeds".
Got to be honest, I was a bit concerned. I had used a theoretical 118 miles of range to travel 78 miles..... was I going to get home okay with 78 miles left to run with only 92 miles showing as available.
I made the decision to drive the slower route home, and keep my speeds down to around 50mph, no unnecessary overtaking or acceleration etc. Got home with 30 miles still showing!!
Work that one out


Click to expand...

Which club were you playing at? It sounds as if it was uphill from your house


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## Smiffy (Jun 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Which club were you playing at? It sounds as if it was uphill from your house
		
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It was perfectly level Bob, both there and back


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## Oddsocks (Jun 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Yep. I used my e2008 to get to a golf course in Surrey a couple of weeks ago. Fully charged when I left, I had over 210 miles showing. Got to the club (which was 78 miles away) with only 92 miles or thereabouts showing as range left.
I had travelled to the course using the dual carriageways A27 and A23 so had been tramping along at "motorway speeds".
Got to be honest, I was a bit concerned. I had used a theoretical 118 miles of range to travel 78 miles..... was I going to get home okay with 78 miles left to run with only 92 miles showing as available.
I made the decision to drive the slower route home, and keep my speeds down to around 50mph, no unnecessary overtaking or acceleration etc. Got home with 30 miles still showing!!
Work that one out


Click to expand...

Less fags and less balls to haul home, lighter payload equals better range.  Simples.

But on topic it would definitely make me twitch


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			It was perfectly level Bob, both there and back
		
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Sounds like a bit of guesswork that could easy go the other way and leave you stranded.
Are these mileages as accurate as they say they are.?


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## bobmac (Jun 17, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds like a bit of guesswork that could easy go the other way and leave you stranded.
Are these mileages as accurate as they say they are.?
		
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I guess it depends on your driving style.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I guess it depends on your driving style.
		
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I would expect most people who buy EVs are not boy racers.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 17, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds like a bit of guesswork that could easy go the other way and leave you stranded.
Are these mileages as accurate as they say they are.?
		
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Probably as accurate as a fuel gauge on an ICE car. Ever time I fill up the range says 650. In the 3.5 years I’ve had the car I’ve never got anywhere near that.


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## Smiffy (Jun 17, 2022)

My post was just to reinforce the effect that motorway speeds have on range. No boy racer about it, it's doing 70mph that kills 'em.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Probably as accurate as a fuel gauge on an ICE car. Ever time I fill up the range says 650. In the 3.5 years I’ve had the car I’ve never got anywhere near that.
		
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Mines pretty accurate tbh.
Says 450 miles and gets very close.
Anyone who regularly uses the motorways will need to know what the car can or can’t do.
Unless they spend hours in charging bays.
I think EV is good for town/ city travel but needs more work for longer journeys.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			My post was just to reinforce the effect that motorway speeds have on range. No boy racer about it, it's doing 70mph that kills 'em.
		
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100% on this.  We had a little electric van for local deliveries at my last job, we used to try and keep it in town and surrounding villages/towns.  The minute it had to hit the m23 despite the speed being constant, the range got hammered.


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## bobmac (Jun 17, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			My post was just to reinforce the effect that motorway speeds have on range. No boy racer about it, it's doing 70mph that kills 'em.
		
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Yep, they are the opposite of IC cars, good ''mpg'' around town thanks partly to regen but not so good at 70.
You've just got to buy a car that suits your lifestyle. If you do 1000's of motorway miles a year, don't buy an EV yet.


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## road2ruin (Jun 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			Probably as accurate as a fuel gauge on an ICE car. Ever time I fill up the range says 650. In the 3.5 years I’ve had the car I’ve never got anywhere near that.
		
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Mine used to be the same, a full tank would apparently give 300 miles. 230 miles later I was at BP again! Obviously it's based on the most efficient driving possible, probably sat on a motorway at 70mph with no braking etc as that's the only time I've ever managed to get close to the estimated range.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Mine used to be the same, a full tank would apparently give 300 miles. 230 miles later I was at BP again! Obviously it's based on the most efficient driving possible, probably sat on a motorway at 70mph with no braking etc as that's the only time I've ever managed to get close to the estimated range.
		
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My old M3s were like that. I always chuckled when I saw it read over 300 range. Occasionally it would do 280 if cruising on a motorway run. Mostly it was between 200 and 220. 

I’m glad I’m not running one of those at the minute.


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## larmen (Jun 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Without getting political. This is the problem we have with our gov. With one hand they ban ice from 2030 and give us warning etc

With the other they hold back ev .. no grant? Shocking. Couple months ago the all car parks charger law became all new or refurb car parks

We should be doubling down on EVs and making a green economy boom n
		
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Aren't the grants to get enough people into an economy (EV, solar) to make it viable? Once you have a critical mass there is no need to pay others to join in anymore, they will/hate to/want to anyway.
Unfortunately I don't have the means to just buy one early and have to bite the bullet at some point. But a thousand pounds off on cars that will cost about 30k upwards, there isn't much in it.

Same for feed in tariff on solar.


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## pool888 (Jun 17, 2022)

There are so many variables with costs it's down to your own circumstances, where you can charge and the type of driving you do, the answer will be different for different people. Petrol and diesel is a fairly similar price regardless of where you purchase it, electric can be anywhere between free and 70p/kwh.

My last car was a BMW 335d, I averaged 38mpg, not much more than 30mpg around town and on short trips, but it would easily do around 50mpg on a long cruise, so again it depends on your driving habits, long motorway runs are going to work out much cheaper per mile if that's what you regularly do. You also had £145 road tax to pay although that would be £520 for a new one now, plus servicing expenses.

Tesla is charged at home at 5p/kwh as I'm lucky to still be on a good tariff until January, quite a lot of public chargers in Scotland are still free, our local council is 21p/kwh, Supercharger prices have risen to around 45p/kwh, and Ionity is as much as 69p/kwn for non members, so the price of "fuelling up" can vary hugely depending where you do it. But you have no road tax or servicing to pay, although you should get the brake fluid done every few years but that should be a pretty minor cost. Surprisingly the Tesla was also slightly cheaper to insure.

Rough yearly costs for me for a new equivalent BMW vs Tesla 3 Performance @ 8000 miles based on charging 95% of the time at home and diesel at £1.95 per gallon.

BMW
Road Tax £520
Servicing & tyres, etc £500
Insurance £450 (this will obviously vary per person)
Fuel £1865
Total £3335 or roughly £64 per week.

Tesla
Road Tax £0
Servicing & tyres, etc £280
Insurance £400 (this will obviously vary per person)
Fuel £150
Total £830 or roughly £16 per week

Depreciation is also a factor, often the largest factor of running a new car. It's something you cant really put a price on until you sell your car, with BMW again it can vary depending on how good you are at haggling a discount at purchase. At the moment the Tesla is by far the least depreciating car I've ever had, but it's strange times for used cars and many cars are keeping their value well due to the lack of supply of new ones.


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## bobmac (Jun 17, 2022)

Not forgetting the amount of renewable energy is still increasing and as it is the cheapest form of energy available, the costs are bound to come down with more chargers meaning more competition.
And they have no CO2 emissions.
And they are quiet
And they are fun to drive especially the 0-60 3.2 secs which is Lamborghini territory without the Lamborghini price tag.


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## Ethan (Jun 17, 2022)

Test driving a Genesis GV60 next Saturday. If I like it, have one reserved for delivery within 4 weeks. If I don't, might wait for the Polestar 3, due late 22/early 23. Considered Audi (current car), but their upgraded E-tron and the new Q6 are now delayed due to manufacturing/parts issues. BMW waiting lists too long.


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## RichA (Jun 17, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			My old M3s were like that. I always chuckled when I saw it read over 300 range. Occasionally it would do 280 if cruising on a motorway run. Mostly it was between 200 and 220.

I’m glad I’m not running one of those at the minute.
		
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When I fill up my 520d the range goes up to 650. I reset the trip counter every time and normally get about 800 miles out of each tank. It's almost all motorway miles, cruise control set at 70.

I'm open minded about EVs, but even with the current fuel prices I can't make the refuelling savings justify the initial extra outlay. An EV equivalent to a 5-series is just too expensive.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 17, 2022)

Has anyone looked at the cost of solar with storage to run their car? Arguably  the best way to run an EV is harvest during the day and charge (Tesla power wall etc ) during the evening as a primary charge source.  I have friends in PV but haven’t spoken to them in around 18months so I’m slightly out of touch on install costs and grants


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## RichA (Jun 17, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Has anyone looked at the cost of solar with storage to run their car? Arguably  the best way to run an EV is harvest during the day and charge (Tesla power wall etc ) during the evening as a primary charge source.  I have friends in PV but haven’t spoken to them in around 18months so I’m slightly out of touch on install costs and grants
		
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My BiL had panels and storage fitted for their 2 Teslas. He doesn't like to talk about how much it cost. Says he did it to be self-sufficient rather than saving money.


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## Oddsocks (Jun 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			My BiL had panels and storage fitted for their 2 Teslas. He doesn't like to talk about how much it cost. Says he did it to be self-sufficient rather than saving money.
		
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which wouldn’t  surprise me at the time of install but I bet he’s glad he did it now.  2 years ago I priced a PV / wind turbine / storage install for a customer and his break even was 5yrs based on 20p/kWh, he didn’t go for the install and is now paying 40p/kWh, he phoned me two night ago and asks me why I didn’t convince him to go ahead with the project - “ because your a tight git “ wasn’t well received.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 17, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Has anyone looked at the cost of solar with storage to run their car? Arguably  the best way to run an EV is harvest during the day and charge (Tesla power wall etc ) during the evening as a primary charge source.  I have friends in PV but haven’t spoken to them in around 18months so I’m slightly out of touch on install costs and grants
		
Click to expand...

If going powerwall plus solar then 11p a kw via the Tesla plan


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## Oddsocks (Jun 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If going powerwall plus solar then 11p a kw via the Tesla plan
		
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And the install hardware cost, or is this via a lease plan.


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## Pants (Jun 17, 2022)

Back of a fag packet calculation and probably not very accurate but my rough guess is that VED, fuel tax and VAT on fuel contribute £65/70 billion (say) to the exchequer every year.  That's very approx £1,000 pa for everyone in the country.  When this begins to reduce and disappear, where do you think the replacement money is going to come from? 

Yep!  You've got it.  No matter what type of vehicle you have, you are going to have to pay!


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## hovis (Jun 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			It would need to be at least 300 motorway miles. I'm down south and I have family in Scotland plus I do long trips to play in competitions. I know lots of cars have quoted ranges of 250-300 miles but that plummets once you are out of town and driving at speed.
		
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If i drive at 70mph my 300 range will do 270/280.  I drove the 310 mile trip from Lichfield to gleneagles.  Stopped off at Carlisle for a 25 minute breakfast whilst using a rapid charger.  Arrived at gleneagles with 80 miles left and plugged straight into the free charger


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## larmen (Jun 17, 2022)

There is a guy on YouTube (EV Puzzle) who does monthly solar break downs for his system. Quite informative and a bench mark to calculate on. Also does EV stuff.

Better people out there for entertainment, but if numbers are your thing it’s worth watching one or two of his videos.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 17, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			And the install hardware cost, or is this via a lease plan.
		
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Borrowed via a 10 year fix on the mortgage .. costs the same as the rise in bills would have but in 8 years it pays for itself


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			And the install hardware cost, or is this via a lease plan.
		
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i have seriously thought about having batteries installed to complement my solar panels. With the main aim of charging a future car battery. But as I see it there is a major problem. 
The average electric car battery size according to Mr Google is 40 kw. But most I have seen are far bigger.
most Battery storage systems are less than 10 Kw.
 By my reckoning there is a massive shortfall in what your storing at home and what your car battery would need for a recharge. Bottom line, what you generate during the day at home, max 25 Kw in summer if your lucky will fill a battery then send out to the grid. 
All that said owt is better than nowt.
A pal who has had storage batteries at home has a stackable system of batteries. Basically you just buy another battery stick it on top of the system and plug in. He has told me that with hindsight he wishes he had bought bigger batteries.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PS, I think the best looking electric vehicle is the VW ID Buzz. A thing of beauty but bloody expensive.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			i have seriously thought about having batteries installed to complement my solar panels. With the main aim of charging a future car battery. But as I see it there is a major problem.
The average electric car battery size according to Mr Google is 40 kw. But most I have seen are far bigger.
most Battery storage systems are less than 10 Kw.
By my reckoning there is a massive shortfall in what your storing at home and what your car battery would need for a recharge. Bottom line, what you generate during the day at home, max 25 Kw in summer if your lucky will fill a battery then send out to the grid.
All that said owt is better than nowt.
A pal who has had storage batteries at home has a stackable system of batteries. Basically you just buy another battery stick it on top of the system and plug in. He has told me that with hindsight he wishes he had bought bigger batteries.
		
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If you add powerwall to your solar you can get on the telsa energy plan 

11p in and pay you 11p for the solar you make 

Means the grid becomes a massive battery and summer pays for winter 

House is darn sight cheaper to run at 11p aswell


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If you add powerwall to your solar you can get on the telsa energy plan

11p in and pay you 11p for the solar you make

Means the grid becomes a massive battery and summer pays for winter

House is darn sight cheaper to run at 11p aswell
		
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My problem is I am getting over 50p a kw generated now as they were fitted when the tariff was high. Making me close to £2K a year.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			PS, I think the best looking electric vehicle is the VW ID Buzz. A thing of beauty but bloody expensive.
		
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Maybe you wanna borrow my glasses 🤓


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Maybe you wanna borrow my glasses 🤓
		
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You could get yer clubs and trolley in that.😉👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			You could get yer clubs and trolley in that.😉👍
		
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Indeed, but I’d rather wear your crocks and underpants than actually look at one.

I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van 👍


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Indeed, but I’d rather wear your crocks and underpants than actually look at one.

I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van 👍
		
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Send us your postcode. 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Send us your postcode. 👍
		
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Just been sick in my mouth 🤢


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Indeed, but I’d rather wear your crocks and underpants than actually look at one.

I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van 👍
		
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have you driven the buzz Id 😳


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			have you driven the buzz Id 😳
		
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In danger of repeating myself, I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van.

Not many around, this was a pre production demo going to a journalist to review 👍


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In danger of repeating myself, I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van.

Not many around, this was a pre production demo going to a journalist to review 👍
		
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I think I would love one but 57 K is a stumbling block. 😖


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Indeed, but I’d rather wear your *crocks* and underpants than actually look at one.

I’ve driven one and they handle fine as you’d expect for a camper van 👍
		
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Crocks. There an infraction right there. 😳


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## pauljames87 (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			My problem is I am getting over 50p a kw generated now as they were fitted when the tariff was high. Making me close to £2K a year.
		
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In that case it's worth keeping it tho? Battery and using it would cost more.. get an ev tariff and charge at night cheap .. save even more


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			In that case it's worth keeping it tho? Battery and using it would cost more.. get an ev tariff and charge at night cheap .. save even more
		
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That’s what am looking at. AC connection has been mentioned


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## pauljames87 (Jun 18, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s what am looking at. AC connection has been mentioned
		
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In your case get a powerwall, charge on an EV tariff at night for pennies then power your house with that (charging car at night) and use the solar to sell to them 😂


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2022)

Must say they still are a learning curve 

The Corsa is 100% a beta car and is full of bugs 

It has this "electric traction control fault" issue which is basically an engine management light 

It stops the car starting once you stop after it comes up 

It can be caused by a number of things.. one of them the 12v battery not charging properly 

I had it come up for first time in 13000 miles 

I got home.. disconnected battery for 30 seconds and it hasn't come back since (70 miles driven since)

I'd say if anyone was the buy one avoid PSA cars (no offence smithy) they are not the best and also the techs aren't as available as other brands .. plus servicing they rip you off! £239 for a second service even tho if it was another brand you would be looking SUb £150 as nothing to do 

Still enjoy the electric side of driving but will be buying a nissan, Kia, Hyundai, telsa or mg next time round


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## road2ruin (Jun 20, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Must say they still are a learning curve

The Corsa is 100% a beta car and is full of bugs

It has this "electric traction control fault" issue which is basically an engine management light

It stops the car starting once you stop after it comes up

It can be caused by a number of things.. one of them the 12v battery not charging properly

I had it come up for first time in 13000 miles

I got home.. disconnected battery for 30 seconds and it hasn't come back since (70 miles driven since)

I'd say if anyone was the buy one avoid PSA cars (no offence smithy) they are not the best and also the techs aren't as available as other brands .. plus servicing they rip you off! £239 for a second service even tho if it was another brand you would be looking SUb £150 as nothing to do

Still enjoy the electric side of driving but will be buying a nissan, Kia, Hyundai, telsa or mg next time round
		
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Both the Kia’s and Hyundai’s have issues with the 12v battery at the moment. It’s due a software fix however a lot of owners have a tool in their car specifically for disconnecting the battery, giving it a minute and then reconnecting!!

Mine is at Tilbury, has been since the 7th so hoping the PDI is almost done at which point it’s shipped to the dealer and then stuck on a trailer and delivered to me.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 20, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Both the Kia’s and Hyundai’s have issues with the 12v battery at the moment. It’s due a software fix however a lot of owners have a tool in their car specifically for disconnecting the battery, giving it a minute and then reconnecting!!

Mine is at Tilbury, has been since the 7th so hoping the PDI is almost done at which point it’s shipped to the dealer and then stuck on a trailer and delivered to me.
		
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Thing is I'd trust both of them to fix the issue I don't trust PSA . They are awful

When I sent my car in for update they bricked it. Basically the update was an issue because rather than downloading the update to the dealer pc and then to the cars one by one they connect the car to the server and download direct

With poor internet on the server, any issues and the update fails and the car is bricked until reinstalled

They just aren't ready for EVs compared to the others

Not expecting them to be nissan or tesla as they been in the game ages but at least be semi decent

That said.  I will go ev again and I will switch the big car when I can aswell and have two ev as I love driving them


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## Smiffy (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd say if anyone was the buy one avoid PSA cars (no offence smithy) they are not the best and also the techs aren't as available as other brands .. plus servicing they rip you off! £239 for a second service even tho if it was another brand you would be looking SUb £150 as nothing to do
		
Click to expand...

No offence taken. Honestly. But why are you having a 2nd service done?
Official intervals are 1st service at 8,000 miles or 1 year and then every 2 years, 16k thereafter....


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			No offence taken. Honestly. But why are you having a 2nd service done?
Official intervals are 1st service at 8,000 miles or 1 year and then every 2 years, 16k thereafter....
		
Click to expand...

Another cock up by PSA tbh, it's actually every 1st year then 2nd year then every 2 

The manual is clear as mud 

The first is just an inspection 

I had a discussion with few other forums half.of the dealers say what you say half don't 

I've seen emails from head office backing up that it's year 1 2 then 4 

So to keep warranty happy I've just done it


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Another cock up by PSA tbh, it's actually every 1st year then 2nd year then every 2

The manual is clear as mud

The first is just an inspection

I had a discussion with few other forums half.of the dealers say what you say half don't

I've seen emails from head office backing up that it's year 1 2 then 4

So to keep warranty happy I've just done it
		
Click to expand...


My e208 was bricked for an update as well, not only that but one of the techs caught part of the front trim with their pocket and ripped it off. Had to have a new front grill! 
Thankfully I got like for like courtesy car. 

Still like my car, order a new one in December. Would buy Peugeot again if they had a bigger battery though ideally I’m looking at the the Ioniq or ev6.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			My e208 was bricked for an update as well, not only that but one of the techs caught part of the front trim with their pocket and ripped it off. Had to have a new front grill!
Thankfully I got like for like courtesy car.

Still like my car, order a new one in December. Would buy Peugeot again if they had a bigger battery though ideally I’m looking at the the Ioniq or ev6.
		
Click to expand...

See I'm really put off the entire PSA group (sorry again smithy) because of their build quality and lack of knowledge from their techs 

I also think they have just made this 50kw and CBA to give options to have bigger 

A 70 would be ideal 

Also why isn't an astra made yet?

I'll go full EV soon as I can .. thinking 2025 when the lease is up of getting a second hand ev for work then lease something big ev wise for the family ..

The driving is brilliant 

Out of interest what did your dealer say about service years? Mine was 1 then 3 year but online the forums have been very clear that first service is year 2 then 4 and year 1 is and ADDITIONAL inspection (which they charged £90 just to look at it, another con.. some dealers were £50 others £150)


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## Smiffy (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			See I'm really put off the entire PSA group (sorry again smithy) because of their build quality and lack of knowledge from their techs.
		
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Errrrr.... I don't think a software download bricking a system can be blamed on a tech. Also, a mechanic could break a front grille on any car by catching it in his trousers pocket, they're all plastic after all.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Errrrr.... I don't think a software download bricking a system can be blamed on a tech. Also, a mechanic could break a front grille on any car by catching it in his trousers pocket, they're all plastic after all.
		
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there are far too little trained techs for EVs  in the network. its shocking

I dont blame the techs for bricking cars for software I blame PSA for setting up a shocking system in which its downloaded directly to the car rather than the dealer does one download of the software to its pc and then downloads that to the cars thus meaning its a direct connection rather than over the internet 

the fact that I had to tell vauxhall about this situation when they bricked mine that it was a issue and then they looked into it and found out how to fix it was bad enough. we shouldnt have to know more than the dealers do about the cars they sell because they havent trained the service staff enough yet


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

@Smiffy 

found this on one of the forums , orginally I was told year 1, then 2 year gap and year 3 and 5 services , they changed the goal posts mid way which is why im servicing it next week

however my dealer still thinks the 1 and 3 is right but Im not risking not doing it incase


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## cliveb (Jun 21, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Also, a mechanic could break a front grille on any car by catching it in his trousers pocket, they're all plastic after all.
		
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Am I alone in thinking that if a trouser pocket snags on a piece of car trim, the pocket is the thing that should suffer damage?


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## Smiffy (Jun 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Am I alone in thinking that if a trouser pocket snags on a piece of car trim, the pocket is the thing that should suffer damage?
		
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Depends on what part of the car trim your trouser pocket snags on. Especially if the car trim is plastic.


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## road2ruin (Jun 21, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Am I alone in thinking that if a trouser pocket snags on a piece of car trim, the pocket is the thing that should suffer damage?
		
Click to expand...

Having got a particularly annoying door handle in our house I can confirm that most trouser pockets are going to be stronger than a bit of trim being held on by plastic clips


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## pool888 (Jun 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



@Smiffy

found this on one of the forums , orginally I was told year 1, then 2 year gap and year 3 and 5 services , they changed the goal posts mid way which is why im servicing it next week

however my dealer still thinks the 1 and 3 is right but Im not risking not doing it incase

View attachment 43145

Click to expand...

That's a bloody expensive cabin filter!

What is included a core service, is it more than just a visual inspection of brakes, wipers, tyres, etc?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

pool888 said:



			That's a bloody expensive cabin filter!

What is included a core service, is it more than just a visual inspection of brakes, wipers, tyres, etc?
		
Click to expand...

its a complete con

if i had got the correct information at the start of the lease I would have taken out a service plan but because it was suppose to be the first service and then year 3 then hand car back that worked out cheaper but instead the first second and then year 4 service it is gonna be a slight more cost 

I am not a fan of the service from vauxhall and will be moving away when I can

however a big fan of EV driving itself


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## pool888 (Jun 21, 2022)

The cabin filter seems to be a con at £140, unless there is more done in those "services" that's not mentioned. Tesla are £30 for a pair that they recommend to change every two years too. they are easy to change yourself in 5 minutes.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

pool888 said:



			The cabin filter seems to be a con at £140, unless there is more done in those "services" that's not mentioned. Tesla are £30 for a pair that they recommend to change every two years too. they are easy to change yourself in 5 minutes.
		
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how much is tesla servings full stop?

I mean these charges seem stupidly high

I get my big juggernault serviced and MOTed for £200 every year including oil 

and we are told EVs have little moving parts etc

seems to me PSA taking the P I ...


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## Smiffy (Jun 21, 2022)

Somebody is pulling your pudding.
Our service department would charge £66.00 for the first service on an e208.
2nd service, due at year 3, (or 16k), would cost £209.00 and includes brake fluid change, pollen filter, screen wash etc.
Rob


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Somebody is pulling your pudding.
Our service department would charge £66.00 for the first service on an e208.
2nd service, due at year 3, (or 16k), would cost £209.00 and includes brake fluid change, pollen filter, screen wash etc.
Rob
		
Click to expand...

the first charge seems to vary from dealer to dealer I think i paid £80, £70 is on the website now but £66 seems fair

the second service ive got in writing somewhere that is in year 2 and year 1 is an additional service , then due year 4 and 6

ive checked this with vauxhall care and they confirmed that its year 2 , and will spread to the dealers 

but this entirely proves my point you work for them and you are told one thing and another dealer will say another. its poor. everyone should be in line and knowing what to do


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## pool888 (Jun 21, 2022)

There is no set servicing with Tesla, they recommend replacing the cabin filter every 2 years, brake fluid check for contaminants every 2 years, A/C test every 6 years, tyre rotation as required. But it's all optional up to the driver, there is no warranty implications if you do not have anything done. Obviously something like the brakes should be checked even though they get very little use.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 21, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Somebody is pulling your pudding.
Our service department would charge £66.00 for the first service on an e208.
2nd service, due at year 3, (or 16k), would cost £209.00 and includes brake fluid change, pollen filter, screen wash etc.
Rob
		
Click to expand...





so this is from the robins and day website.. they were easiest to find servicing from i typed in my reg and it says year 2 service



infact I can tell you this has changed 

*Servicing*
Every Corsa-e needs an initial service after one year or 8,000 miles, whichever comes soonest. Following this, there's a first scheduled service two years or 16,000 miles from the date of first registration. The Corsa’s service intervals then shift to every two years or 16,000 miles. That puts electric owners at a distinct advantage, as both the petrol and diesel versions of the Corsa require maintenance every 12 months, which inevitably raises costs – even with a service plan.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/vauxhall/corsa/running-costs 

as I used to see on that very page what your telling me was what they said now they have changed to what ive been told so the word is getting out

so again, poor from PSA to not tell their dealers the correct information


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## spongebob59 (Jun 22, 2022)

Entrepreneur Jonathan Carrier reckons more people would drive electric cars if they had portable chargers in their boots. The electrical equivalent of a can of petrol.

So he’s launching one. Called the ZipCharge Go, he claims it’s a design world first. There are portable battery packs that work with electric cars. Generally, these are designed for giant American recreational vehicles, some of which have their own solar panels, and if you search YouTube you’ll come across allegedly comic videos of people recharging moribund Teslas with petrol generators, but the Go has been designed from the off to charge vehicles, and has the necessary software to pair up with them.

‘The inspiration was my brother, who lives in an end of terrace house in Twickenham and bought an EV for personal use. He was always queuing to charge it up, and I thought; ‘there must be a better way,’’ said Carrier.

You can buy halfway house EV chargers like the ThirdRock Energy Commando Plug, which comes with various electric outputs and plug types, but still needs to be connected to a building or a piece of street furniture before it will charge a car. Carrier’s product, which uses lithium-ion battery cells, and will be sold in three different power outputs (4, 6 and 8kWh) and is entirely free standing and portable. Taking a little over half an hour to charge, it provides a claimed range of about twenty miles, so would be suitable for getting you home from work rather than getting across the country.

Carrier is hoping the charger, which is set to be available in the second quarter of 2023, will have a ready market, claiming that 8.5m, or 40 per cent of car owning households in Britain don’t have access to off street parking, so the luxury of a reasonably rapid home charging box is denied them.

Carrier has a background in vehicle engineering, as does Richie Sibal, ZipCharge’s co-founder (the pair have worked for the likes of Lotus, Jaguar and McLaren) and talks about how the Go’s light, space frame aluminium sub structure is a homage to the way some sports cars are built.

It can be charged in a domestic setting using a regular three pin socket (or ‘granny plug,’ as Carrier puts it), and will do this during the cheapest tariff periods.

It’s designed to be used as a household power source as well as a vehicle charger, and its co-creator envisions buyers making use of power saved by the Go during cheaper periods instead of taking juice direct from the grid when it’s more expensive.

Wind and solar power generation have the advantage of producing a lot of electricity with zero emissions when the weather is right, but are relatively useless when it isn’t, and Carrier sees his device as having potential to store some of that energy when it’s being generated, to be used when there’s a lack of wind or sun.

‘When it’s not being used as a charger, our device can be plugged into the home and be used to feed electricity back into the grid,’ said Carrier. ‘We can save people a significant amount of energy, that would pay for EV charging with some surplus.’ Apparently, this ability to discharge both AC and DC current makes the Go ‘bi-directional.’

Electric cars are hefty things thanks to their batteries, and around 25kg for the 4kWh and under 49kg for the 8kWh Go, this box of electric tricks is no lightweight either, although its creator points out that its light enough to be taken on a plane, and being on wheels will help when moving it about.

If it’s left on a street plugged into your car, will they also help nefarious types from making off with it? Carrier doesn’t think so. The cabling locks on, the handle acts as a tether, and it’s controlled by a phone app. There are tracking, remote disabling functions and a ‘geo-fencing’ facility that means it will only work in a designated street, should you find your Go has gone. Whether the more gormless thieving practitioners will be deterred from reaching for their bolt cutters remains to be seen.

How much will it cost? The outright purchase price hasn’t been officially announced (think £1,500-£2,000, so not cheap), and the company is also touting a subscription model at around £49 a month.

All this could have been yours now were it not for the component shortage that has resulted in 18-month waiting lists for some electric cars. ‘We have a supply chain problem, with lead times of 52 weeks for some components,’ said Carrier.

But the new technology will surely allay fears from terraced home owners and those living in flats that they will be left behind in the push for more EVs and the phasing out of petrol cars. As more powerful and efficient chargers reach the market, living in these sorts of properties needn’t be a barrier to going electric.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 22, 2022)

Germany could defy EU ban on petrol cars by 2035 as the Finance Minister rejected the EU plan. I think cracks are appearing in the whole Green agenda. Germany also is reversing trend on coal power due to the energy crisis - and UK is quite rightly pushing more home-grown energy security with new North Sea projects. I hope targets are watered down across the board as the market will dictate the pace and it will probably be a similar outcome anyway


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## spongebob59 (Jun 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Germany could defy EU ban on petrol cars by 2035 as the Finance Minister rejected the EU plan. I think cracks are appearing in the whole Green agenda. Germany also is reversing trend on coal power due to the energy crisis - and UK is quite rightly pushing more home-grown energy security with new North Sea projects. I hope targets are watered down across the board as the market will dictate the pace and it will probably be a similar outcome anyway
		
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BRUSSELS, June 24 (Reuters) - Italy, Portugal, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Romania want to delay a European Union plan to effectively ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035 by five years, according to a document seen by Reuters.

The policy is a key pillar of the EU's plans to tackle rising transport emissions and speed the shift to electric vehicles, as the bloc strives to cut economy-wide net greenhouse gas emissions 55% by 2030, from 1990 levels.


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## Piece (Jun 27, 2022)

I saw at an uber-busy Goodwood FoS, a few very nice electric cars 😎

The Polestar O2 was lush as well as the Lotus Eletre.

The most impressive was the McMurtry...omg!! How quick?!


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## Aztecs27 (Jun 28, 2022)

Just stuck my order in for a Skoda Enyaq via the salary sacrifice lease scheme we have at work. Lead time is about a year at the minute haha. 

Would have gone for something else, but in my price range it's the biggest car available currently.


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## Matty6 (Jun 29, 2022)

Had my etron 55 SUV for nearly 3 months now. Truly phenomenal car. If we had a need for a second car I’d buy another!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 4, 2022)

Took little one swimming yesterday, the car park nearby has a Tesla supercharge station 

Parked in it was 1 Tesla 
And the following not EVs 

Ferrari 
Mini s 
Mg 

Even if they could claim to be electric they weren't plugged in so shouldn't use the bays 

However the problem seems simple. Don't give EVs the best spaces. These are ground floor right near the exit ..

Ground floor is only disabled and these spaces so no average space and people are lazy they don't want to go upstairs

Why not put the ev chargers top floor.. nobody parks there..it's got lifts .. all good 

It's same as baby parking they put the spaces in the best places so those without kids use them because they are better spaces 

Put them far end of car park less chance .. then you would only get people who funny about their cars being dinged


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## DaveR (Jul 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Took little one swimming yesterday, the car park nearby has a Tesla supercharge station

Parked in it was 1 Tesla
And the following not EVs

Ferrari
Mini s
Mg

Even if they could claim to be electric they weren't plugged in so shouldn't use the bays

However the problem seems simple. Don't give EVs the best spaces. These are ground floor right near the exit ..

Ground floor is only disabled and these spaces so no average space and people are lazy they don't want to go upstairs

Why not put the ev chargers top floor.. nobody parks there..it's got lifts .. all good

It's same as baby parking they put the spaces in the best places so those without kids use them because they are better spaces

Put them far end of car park less chance .. then you would only get people who funny about their cars being dinged
		
Click to expand...

I've seen EVs in the charging bays at my local Tesco but they weren't plugged in.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I've seen EVs in the charging bays at my local Tesco but they weren't plugged in.
		
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I read something the other day on an EV forum that I never knew. Apparently podpoint and Tesco (who work together for the chargers) said you have to shop at Tesco to use the freebie 

Now this was x amount of years ago, no signs back this up etc 

So many people don't know it .. doubt they even enforce it 

Heard another story of cafes installing chargers .. 7kw ones.. say about 5

Full English and an hours charge £10 

The cabbies are loving it apparently


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 5, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Heard another story of cafes installing chargers .. 7kw ones.. say about 5

Full English and an hours charge £10

The cabbies are loving it apparently
		
Click to expand...

Their hearts might not be though


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## DaveR (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I read something the other day on an EV forum that I never knew. Apparently podpoint and Tesco (who work together for the chargers) said you have to shop at Tesco to use the freebie

Now this was x amount of years ago, no signs back this up etc

So many people don't know it .. doubt they even enforce it

Heard another story of cafes installing chargers .. 7kw ones.. say about 5

Full English and an hours charge £10

The cabbies are loving it apparently
		
Click to expand...

I was actually referring to the selfish stupidity of some people bit like those that abuse disabled parking spaces.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I was actually referring to the selfish stupidity of some people bit like those that abuse disabled parking spaces.
		
Click to expand...

There will always be selfish people, only spaces at front of car park should be disabled as they can benefit from the access 

Baby and child should be somewhere out way , need the space around rather than to be at front. People just misuse to get near the front 

My club got it spot on with charging bays 

Far end of car park..nobody misusing them because their so out the way people want to be as close as possible unless they want a charge


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I was actually referring to the selfish stupidity of some people bit like those that abuse disabled parking spaces.
		
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I don't agree.
If a handicapped driver can't park in a handicapped space because an able bodied person was too lazy to park a bit further away, there are other 'normal' spaces available.
If a non EV driver parks in a charging bay, they have done it on purpose to stop someone charging.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			However the problem seems simple. Don't give EVs the best spaces. These are ground floor right near the exit ..

Ground floor is only disabled and these spaces so no average space and people are lazy they don't want to go upstairs

Why not put the ev chargers top floor.. nobody parks there..it's got lifts .. all good

Put them far end of car park less chance .. then you would only get people who funny about their cars being dinged
		
Click to expand...

Have you stopped to think about your statement?  Put the chargers upstairs?  You do know that you can't simply plug in an extension lead and have them on the top floor.  
The work involved to rectro fit high voltage cable underground (as required by law) To a charging station is immense.  It makes sense to keep them close to the building to keep cost low.  If you was a business owner would you fork out the extra?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Have you stopped to think about your statement?  Put the chargers upstairs?  You do know that you can't simply plug in an extension lead and have them on the top floor. 
The work involved to rectro fit high voltage cable underground (as required by law) To a charging station is immense.  It makes sense to keep them close to the building to keep cost low.  If you was a business owner would you fork out the extra?
		
Click to expand...

Very true. However a normal car park like Tesco, why put them right by the door instead of out the way a bit .. out the way they won't get misused 

Extra cabling for distance maybe but I'm sure a work around then right by the disabled bays so people just use them because there next to the door


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

I stayed at a hotel near Nottingham a few weeks ago and it had a BP Pulse charger.  I could stay at it for a maximum 2 hours.  After that I would be charged £10 an hour for just being in the space.  As my hybrid takes about 5 hours to charge, I had to charge, disconnect after 2 hours.  Go away for 5 minutes, come back, re-charge, repeat.......


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			As my hybrid takes about 5 hours to charge, I had to charge, disconnect after 2 hours.  Go away for 5 minutes, come back, re-charge, repeat.......
		
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What hybrid do you have that takes 5 hours to charge and what size/speed charger was it?


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true. However a normal car park like Tesco, why put them right by the door instead of out the way a bit .. out the way they won't get misused

Extra cabling for distance maybe but I'm sure a work around then right by the disabled bays so people just use them because there next to the door
		
Click to expand...

They need to advertise the fact they have them so the door is logical.  But admission no body goes upstairs so how would EV owners know they were there.

The cost of installing armoured at the canoe at the moment is the highest it’s been in years. The install costs would put end users off.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Skoda Superb iV. It was a 50Kw charger, but the car itself can only take a maximum of 3.6Kw.  5+ hours is actually on a 3-pin plug.  If you're lucky, you can do it in just over 4 hours using a dedicated charger.  Either way, fast top-ups at Motorway Services are a no-go. 
https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/skoda/2020/superb-iv


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Skoda Superb iV. It was a 50Kw charger, but the car itself can only take a maximum of 3.6Kw.  5+ hours is actually on a 3-pin plug.  If you're lucky, you can do it in just over 4 hours using a dedicated charger.  Either way, fast top-ups at Motorway Services are a no-go.
https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/skoda/2020/superb-iv

Click to expand...

This is the oversight people have when ordering a EV.  It’s the size of the inverter which dictates the speed and not the size of the charger feeding it.  A small inverter (3.6kw) effectively bottlenecks the charge.

However, that should only be relevant on AC charging as DC charging bypasses the inverter.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Skoda Superb iV. It was a 50Kw charger, but the car itself can only take a maximum of 3.6Kw.  5+ hours is actually on a 3-pin plug.  If you're lucky, you can do it in just over 4 hours using a dedicated charger.  Either way, fast top-ups at Motorway Services are a no-go.
https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/skoda/2020/superb-iv

Click to expand...

All about the charger on board 

Mines a 7kw ac and 100kw DC 

But then again if you were topping up on a motorway I'd expect you to just use petrol ? Rather than wait for a charge when you got the option


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I stayed at a hotel near Nottingham a few weeks ago and it had a BP Pulse charger.  I could stay at it for a maximum 2 hours.  After that I would be charged £10 an hour for just being in the space.  As my hybrid takes about 5 hours to charge, I had to charge, disconnect after 2 hours.  Go away for 5 minutes, come back, re-charge, repeat.......
		
Click to expand...

But that's your cars fault not the charger.  Plug in hybrids are not ev's.  My car charges from 0/270 miles in 45 minutes


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

Always use the philosophy of dartford tunnel and the m25.  It doesn’t matter how many lanes traffic can use, it will always bottle neck at the tunnel or inverter.

Why people buy big EV’s with small inverters is crazy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Always use the philosophy of dartford tunnel and the m25.  It doesn’t matter how many lanes traffic can use, it will always bottle neck at the tunnel or inverter.

Why people buy big EV’s with small inverters is crazy.
		
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Do you expect car drivers to understand big inverter, small inverter tech? People just want a car that works. 

(I have no idea about inverters incidentally, I am speaking for the technologically ignorant masses )


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			This is the oversight people have when ordering a EV.  It’s the size of the inverter which dictates the speed and not the size of the charger feeding it.  A small inverter (3.6kw) effectively bottlenecks the charge.

However, that should only be relevant on AC charging as DC charging bypasses the inverter.
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter where I charge it, I can't improve on the charging times in the link.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you expect car drivers to understand big inverter, small inverter tech? People just want a car that works.

(I have no idea about inverters incidentally, I am speaking for the technologically ignorant masses )
		
Click to expand...

Likewise.  I got my Skoda Superb iV because, as a company car, I pay considerably less tax than I did in my old Superb 2.0 Diesel. 
As people get more used to EV's, more will know what to look for.  But, at the moment, the technology is outstripping people's knowledge.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			But that's your cars fault not the charger.  Plug in hybrids are not ev's.  My car charges from 0/270 miles in 45 minutes
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.  I'm not condemning, just showing an example.  In this instance, they only had the one charger for the whole hotel, so the restriction made sense.



pauljames87 said:



			All about the charger on board

Mines a 7kw ac and 100kw DC

But then again if you were topping up on a motorway I'd expect you to just use petrol ? Rather than wait for a charge when you got the option
		
Click to expand...

For sure.  In fact, there are times I can travel from Glagow to the South of England and not charge my car because there is nowhere I can stay long enough to charge it.  Including quite a few hotels.  I am sure that it will improve, but this is the state of the nation at the moment.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Agreed.  I'm not condemning, just showing an example.  In this instance, they only had the one charger for the whole hotel, so the restriction made sense.


For sure.  In fact, there are times I can travel from Glagow to the South of England and not charge my car because there is nowhere I can stay long enough to charge it.  Including quite a few hotels.  I am sure that it will improve, but this is the state of the nation at the moment.
		
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I don't understand your logic.  I travelled from Birmingham to gleneagles and didn't encounter any issues at all.  That's because the infrastructure is designed for electric cars (rapid charging).  One stop at a mcdonald's and I'm ready to go.  The infrastructure isn't designed for plug in hybrids.  Your grievance doesn't makes sense because you are using your car against its design.  The ev range on your car is for when you pop out and about and stay local.   Driving the length of the the country and moaning that the infrastructure doesn't suit your 50/60 mile range doesn't make sense to me.   Unless I'm missing something 🤷‍♂️

What I'm trying to say in the nicest way possible is you're not in the club.  You don't have a ev.  Again, in the nicest possible way you can't really give your opinion on "owning and running an ev" when you don't have one.


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Driving the length of the the country and moaning that the infrastructure doesn't suit your 50/60 mile range doesn't make sense to me.   Unless I'm missing something 🤷‍♂️
		
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The WLTP range of the Skoda Superb is 35 miles.

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/skoda/2020/superb-iv


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The WLTP range of the Skoda Superb is 35 miles.

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/skoda/2020/superb-iv

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Blumin ek.  Even worse then.  Our second car is a prius plug in with a real world range of 25 miles.  Doesn't sound a lot but it covers school runs, shopping, golf and my commute.   Even with a range of 25 miles I can't remember last time I put petrol in it.


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Blumin ek.  Even worse then.  Our second car is a prius plug in with a real world range of 25 miles.  Doesn't sound a lot but it covers school runs, shopping, golf and my commute.   Even with a range of 25 miles I can't remember last time I put petrol in it.
		
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Got to agree.
Id understand if it was a little run around but I think it's an estate.
The only way I can see to justify it is if you drove it all day on petrol and switched to battery to avoid the congestion charges.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you expect car drivers to understand big inverter, small inverter tech? People just want a car that works.

(I have no idea about inverters incidentally, I am speaking for the technologically ignorant masses )
		
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If you’re buying an EV car and have range concerns, why wouldn’t the buyer do some research?


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			I don't understand your logic.  I travelled from Birmingham to gleneagles and didn't encounter any issues at all.  That's because the infrastructure is designed for electric cars (rapid charging).  One stop at a mcdonald's and I'm ready to go.  The infrastructure isn't designed for plug in hybrids.  Your grievance doesn't makes sense because you are using your car against its design.  The ev range on your car is for when you pop out and about and stay local.   Driving the length of the the country and moaning that the infrastructure doesn't suit your 50/60 mile range doesn't make sense to me.   Unless I'm missing something 🤷‍♂️

What I'm trying to say in the nicest way possible is you're not in the club.  You don't have a ev.  Again, in the nicest possible way you can't really give your opinion on "owning and running an ev" when you don't have one.
		
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OK, first of all, I think I'm entitled to an opinion as, even though I am driving a hybrid, I still have the requirement to charge it up.  Running in hybrid mode, I get markedly better MPG than running in petrol only with a flat battery.  I therefore would like to charge my car up when I arrive at my destination.  Travelling on business, I can't afford the time to stop for extended stops to charge my car, so I prefer to charge overnight.  Whilst some hotels have chargers, many either still don't, or they're not working, or they are already occupied.  I am then in a position of driving an additional 200/300/400+ miles home on petrol alone.  Yes, I can do that, but MPG isn't as good (although still over 50mpg).  I never said the infrastructure didn't suit my 35 mile electric range.  I'm not daft.  
In addition, as EV's increase, there will be a bigger demand on the charging points.  I have seen the queues at petrol stations when it takes you a few minutes to fill your car.  When there are more cars on one location than there are charging points, you have to wait for them to finish.  And it's not like petrol stations.  When people fuel up their car, they don't pop inside for a coffee or meal whilst it's charging and leave it there.  They fill it and move on (albeit buying a coffee, etc when they pay for the fuel).  
I fully understand the limitations of my car.  I have explained the reason why I have it (lower tax reasons, a fully electric car wasn't available and wouldn't be able to tow a caravan, and not enough range to travel long distances without prolonged stops).  
Just because the model fits you, doesn't mean it fits everyone.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			OK, first of all, I think I'm entitled to an opinion as, even though I am driving a hybrid, I still have the requirement to charge it up.  Running in hybrid mode, I get markedly better MPG than running in petrol only with a flat battery.  I therefore would like to charge my car up when I arrive at my destination.  Travelling on business, I can't afford the time to stop for extended stops to charge my car, so I prefer to charge overnight.  Whilst some hotels have chargers, many either still don't, or they're not working, or they are already occupied.  I am then in a position of driving an additional 200/300/400+ miles home on petrol alone.  Yes, I can do that, but MPG isn't as good (although still over 50mpg).  I never said the infrastructure didn't suit my 35 mile electric range.  I'm not daft. 
In addition, as EV's increase, there will be a bigger demand on the charging points.  I have seen the queues at petrol stations when it takes you a few minutes to fill your car.  When there are more cars on one location than there are charging points, you have to wait for them to finish.  And it's not like petrol stations.  When people fuel up their car, they don't pop inside for a coffee or meal whilst it's charging and leave it there.  They fill it and move on (albeit buying a coffee, etc when they pay for the fuel). 
I fully understand the limitations of my car.  I have explained the reason why I have it (lower tax reasons, a fully electric car wasn't available and wouldn't be able to tow a caravan, and not enough range to travel long distances without prolonged stops). 
Just because the model fits you, doesn't mean it fits everyone.
		
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I think of were honest a good percentage of company car users only opted for hybrids for tax purposes only.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			OK, first of all, I think I'm entitled to an opinion as, even though I am driving a hybrid, I still have the requirement to charge it up.  Running in hybrid mode, I get markedly better MPG than running in petrol only with a flat battery.  I therefore would like to charge my car up when I arrive at my destination.  Travelling on business, I can't afford the time to stop for extended stops to charge my car, so I prefer to charge overnight.  Whilst some hotels have chargers, many either still don't, or they're not working, or they are already occupied.  I am then in a position of driving an additional 200/300/400+ miles home on petrol alone.  Yes, I can do that, but MPG isn't as good (although still over 50mpg).  I never said the infrastructure didn't suit my 35 mile electric range.  I'm not daft.
In addition, as EV's increase, there will be a bigger demand on the charging points.  I have seen the queues at petrol stations when it takes you a few minutes to fill your car.  When there are more cars on one location than there are charging points, you have to wait for them to finish.  And it's not like petrol stations.  When people fuel up their car, they don't pop inside for a coffee or meal whilst it's charging and leave it there.  They fill it and move on (albeit buying a coffee, etc when they pay for the fuel).
I fully understand the limitations of my car.  I have explained the reason why I have it (lower tax reasons, a fully electric car wasn't available and wouldn't be able to tow a caravan, and not enough range to travel long distances without prolonged stops).
Just because the model fits you, doesn't mean it fits everyone.
		
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The title is "would you own a ev". You don't have an valid opinion because you don't own one.  Your arguments are not relevant to this thread.   If the thread was "would you own a plug in hybrid" then that would be a different story.

You are throwing up issues that aren't relevant to "proper" ev owners.  Your issues with the system are not reflective on owning a ev.

Yes the model suits me.  But I am in a position to explain the benefits and draw backs.  You are not


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2022)

If you're travelling on business in your company car, can you not claim your petrol costs back?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			If you’re buying an EV car and have range concerns, why wouldn’t the buyer do some research?
		
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I think expecting someone to do research to the point of checking out inverter types is pushing the limits of what you can expect from people. People will do research to a basic level but then expect the mfr to provide the rest in bite sized, easy to read chunks. Even for those reading car mags it tends not to get to small details such as this.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you're travelling on business in your company car, can you not claim your petrol costs back?
		
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Correct. And the mileage rate on petrol hybrids is pretty good. 




Lord Tyrion said:



			I think expecting someone to do research to the point of checking out inverter types is pushing the limits of what you can expect from people. People will do research to a basic level but then expect the mfr to provide the rest in bite sized, easy to read chunks. Even for those reading car mags it tends not to get to small details such as this.
		
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Inverters on most hybrids are limited to 3.6kw or 7.2kw, the new Audi A3 hybrid got hammered in reviews for only having a 3.6kw inverter compared with others in the class having 7.2kw


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			The title is "would you own a ev". You don't have an valid opinion because you don't own one.  Your arguments are not relevant to this thread.   If the thread was "would you own a plug in hybrid" then that would be a different story.

You are throwing up issues that aren't relevant to "proper" ev owners.  Your issues with the system are not reflective on owning a ev.

Yes the model suits me.  But I am in a position to explain the benefits and draw backs.  You are not
		
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Well, that's me told!  So should I start a separate thread on owning a hybrid, as you obviously think my input is not relevant?  So my opinion doesn't count because I have an alternative viewpoint to yours?  It may not be a full EV, but it is still a vehicle that takes an electric charge.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Well, that's me told!  So should I start a separate thread on owning a hybrid, as you obviously think my input is not relevant?
		
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Yes I think you should.  I think you would have some good information that could help people decide on if it's the right move for them.  You clearly do the miles to be in a good position to do that


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

There is definitely some must know info when going for a hybrid (plug in) over a full Evv


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yes I think you should.  I think you would have some good information that could help people decide on if it's the right move for them.  You clearly do the miles to be in a good position to do that
		
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I think I will continue to give my input.  Unless you have appointed yourself as this thread moderator and are vetting what is and isn't relevant. And, by the way, who are you to define what opinions are valid or not.  They are *OPINIONS*!
I have taken my experience and extrapolated it to other instances.  I'm entitled to do that.  For me personally at the moment, an EV wouldn't work, but it would for my missus when she looks to change her car.  I have an opinion based on what I have experienced, and I believe there are still holes in the infrastructure.  Maybe not on main thoroughfares, but certainly in the more outreaching parts of the UK.  That is  my opinion based on personal observation.  Just because it doesn't fit with yours does not make it irrelevant.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			There is definitely some must know info when going for a hybrid (plug in) over a full Evv
		
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Interestingly, not a plug-in but I have a friend who has a Lexus RX full hybrid and because he hardly uses it now, he never travels enough to charge the batteries, so he's getting very low MPG on it.  Not relevant to this thread, as I am sure somebody on here will point out, but I think it also shows the limitations of the full hybrid models.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			I think I will continue to give my input.  Unless you have appointed yourself as this thread moderator and are vetting what is and isn't relevant.
I have taken my experience and extrapolated it to other instances.  I'm entitled to do that.  For me personally at the moment, an EV wouldn't work, but it would for my missus when she looks to change her car.  I have an opinion based on what I have experienced, and I believe there are still holes in the infrastructure.  Maybe not on main thoroughfares, but certainly in the more outreaching parts of the UK.  That is  my opinion based on personal observation.  Just because it doesn't fit with yours does not make it irrelevant.
		
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Crack on then mate.  For anyone else that wants a opinion on what it's actually like to own and run one then feel free to ask.  If any of you want to know what it's like by someone who doesn't own one then ask the above.    Can say it any clearer really 🤷‍♂️


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Crack on then mate.  For anyone else that wants a opinion on what it's actually like to own and run one then feel free to ask.  If any of you want to know what it's like by someone who doesn't own one then ask the above.    Can say it any clearer really 🤷‍♂️
		
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Don't be obtuse.  I have NEVER tried to say to anyone what it is like to own and drive one.  Please tell me where I have said/wrote that?  All my comments are about the infrastructure, or how useless they are at the moment for pulling caravans.  I have my opinion of the difficulty in finding charging points.  If you're going to have sly digs, please make sure they're accurate.
As I said, you're not the moderator, so don't try to bully me out of having an opinion.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Don't be obtuse.  I have NEVER tried to say to anyone what it is like to own and drive one.  Please tell me where I have said/wrote that?  All my comments are about the infrastructure, or how useless they are at the moment for pulling caravans.  If you're going to have sly digs, please make sure they're accurate.
		
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You are giving information on infrastructure that isn't relevant to ev owners, why can't you see that? You have a very good point about caravans I can't argue with that.   But your whole argument about queuing at chargers,  hotels only giving you one hour ect isn't valid because that's not how ev owners operate. 
Let's put it simply...... Does anyone on this forum drive more than 270 miles a day?   If the answer is no then everything roster said is irrelevant because you'll charge you car on return to home.  For the 1%that do then you need to find a rapid charger network that is not a a service stantion.  I use "instavolt".
After 18 months and 30, 000miles I can say imo rosters account on ev infrastructure is utter rubbish


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			You are giving information on infrastructure that isn't relevant to ev owners, why can't you see that? You have a very good point about caravans I can't argue with that.   But your whole argument about queuing at chargers,  hotels only giving you one hour ect isn't valid because that's not how ev owners operate. 
Let's put it simply...... Does anyone on this forum drive more than 270 miles a day?   If the answer is no then everything robster is irrelevant because you'll charge you car on return to home.  For the 1%that do then you need to find a rapid charger network that is not a a service stantion.  I use "instavolt".
After 18 months and 30, 000miles I can say imo rosters account on ev infrastructure is utter rubbish
		
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You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.  I certainly don't call it "Rubbish" (aren't you defensive?).  But there are people who do larger distances so my comments still stand.  We obviously disagree.  The only difference is, I don't decry your opinion, or resort to name calling.  As I say, as my opinion doesn't match with yours, you are getting very aggressive with your comments.  It won't change my opinion, or the facts they are based on.  Enjoy your EV driving.  I'm not getting involved in any more discussions with someone who doesn't respect other peoples opinions.  See ya.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.  I certainly don't call it "Rubbish" (aren't you defensive?).  But there are people who do larger distances so my comments still stand.  We obviously disagree.  The only difference is, I don't decry your opinion, or resort to name calling.  As I say, as my opinion doesn't match with yours, you are getting very aggressive with your comments.  It won't change my opinion, or the facts they are based on.  Enjoy your EV driving.  I'm not getting involved in any more discussions with someone who doesn't respect other peoples opinions.  See ya.
		
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I would respect you opinion if you had a ev.  How can I respect the opinion of someone with no experience in said area. It like saying "I dont recommend that white wine,  I haven't actually tried it but it smells horrible "

For people that do larger distances then you're covered.   Having just completed a 660 mile round trip myself.

It's not as easy as standing next to a fuel pump is have to admit


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			The title is "would you own a ev". You don't have an valid opinion because you don't own one.  Your arguments are not relevant to this thread.   If the thread was "would you own a plug in hybrid" then that would be a different story.

You are throwing up issues that aren't relevant to "proper" ev owners.  Your issues with the system are not reflective on owning a ev.

Yes the model suits me.  But I am in a position to explain the benefits and draw backs.  You are not
		
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Sorry, but you've got it entirely arse about face! As an existing ev owner your choice was obvious. And, given the title of the thread was 'Would...' as opposed to 'Did...'.... 
Decision whether to be full EV or Hybrid is highly likely to be depend on individual circumstances, but Hybrid qualifies as an EV, and part of the choice, to me.
Instead of simply stating 'issues that aren't relevant to 'proper' ev owners', please explain why that aren't relevant (you may have, but I'm not going to search dozens of pages to check). The issues of available distance and charging facilities seem the most critical ones.

And FWIW...A wine smelling horrible would be sufficient to put me off buying it and I'd similarly recommend against it, if asked.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:




Sorry, but you've got it entirely arse about face! As an existing ev owner your choice was obvious. And, given the title of the thread was 'Would...' as opposed to 'Did...'.... 
Decision whether to be full EV or Hybrid is highly likely to be depend on individual circumstances, but Hybrid qualifies as an EV, and part of the choice, to me.
Instead of simply stating 'issues that aren't relevant to 'proper' ev owners', please explain why that aren't relevant (you may have, but I'm not going to search dozens of pages to check). The issues of available distance and charging facilities seem the most critical ones.
		
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The thread is "would you own a ev". The point of the thread is to inform people if it is worth them owning an ev.  Not a hybrid not a regular car, a ev.
The issues surrounding charging facilities and wait times are not the most crucial ones to consider as the vast majority of people don't cover the mileage to need to use the infrastructure in the first place.
How often would you visit a petrol station if you had one at home that let you dispense 300 miles a day?.    All of a sudden its not so important.
However,  if you park on the street or travel alot per day then of course its relevant.  But the information that is being posted isn't a true account of what it's like as an owner.  It's the world seen through the eyes of a person who's car is not able to utilise the system.

For those who don't know think of it this way.  When you fill a pint glass up with water from your tap you blast the tap on, fill it up as fast as possible,  when it gets close to the top of the glass you start to shut the tap off thus not spilling any water.   Thats the same way a ev charges.  A plug in hybrid is constantly on trickle mode to prevent all the water spilling over the glass.  I have a plug in hybrid too.  The technology regarding charging to me is piss poor.  I also own a ev.  The technology is fantastic (and getting better)

If you are on the fence about owning a ev you might to listen to Robster59 and be put off.  I'm saying his Information isn't reflective of what it's actually like to own, drive and run one.  I'd like to add that my wife (who's car it is) drives the country in it


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

🍿🍿


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			The thread is "would you own a ev". The point of the thread is to inform people if it is worth them owning an ev..  Not a hybrid not a regular car, a ev....
		
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Well, your 'the point...' clashes with the thread title! You seem to have interpreted the, quite specific, title as 'what are the benefits/disadvantages of owning an EV'! Though it may have morphed into that some time ago.
FWIW, I wouldn't buy one currently, but they are definitely the way of the future. Hybrids are a poor 'halfway' exercise that may be appropriate to some (e.g. long distance) users, but not me. Convenient charging facilities are essential, preferably direct from house, and currently don't seem widespread enough.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 6, 2022)

Hybrids are different to full EV’s but nonetheless they belong on this thread 👍


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Well, your 'the point...' clashes with the thread title! You seem to have interpreted the, quite specific, title as 'what are the benefits/disadvantages of owning an EV'! Though it may have morphed into that some time ago.
FWIW, I wouldn't buy one currently, but they are definitely the way of the future. Hybrids are a poor 'halfway' exercise that may be appropriate to some (e.g. long distance) users, but not me. Convenient charging facilities are essential and currently don't seem widespread enough.
		
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If you can't charge at home or work then yes, charging Infrastructure is essential. I have never in 30,000 miles been caught short on charge.  If I didn't have a charger at home then its not the availability of chargers that is the problem ( because it isn't) it would be the 45 minute wait to charge my car every 300 miles.  So I wouldn't want an ev.

Most people think that the only place to charge is a service station or petrol station. The infrastructure that people say isn't there most definitely is.  You just don't notice them.  They are right under your nose.   Google "zap map".


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			If you can't charge at home or work then yes, charging Infrastructure is essential. I have never in 30,000 miles been caught short on charge.  If I didn't have a charger at home then its not the availability of chargers that is the problem ( because it isn't) it would be the 45 minute wait to charge my car every 300 miles.  So I wouldn't want an ev
Most people think that the only place to charge is a service station or petrol station. The infrastructure that people say isn't there most definitely is.  You just don't notice them.  They are right under your nose.   Google "zap map".
		
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Supermarkets and Hotels/Motels that have parking are the logical charging places to me. The charging time is not 'wasted' then On-street chargers will eventually become widespread - in cities/large towns initially. But, indeed, home (overnight)or work charging facilities are currently a virtual requirement.

FWIW. None of this info has been gleaned 'from this thread', so your 'point of the thread is to inform' has not been appropriate for me, though might be to others - if presented in a 'less-combative way.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you're travelling on business in your company car, can you not claim your petrol costs back?
		
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Yes, ours is paid for by a fuel card (petrol or electric) and then we just pay for our personal mileage as e claim back for charging from home.


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

For what it's worth, I use Zap Map wherever I go.  And the numerous charging apps.


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Supermarkets and Hotels/Motels that have parking are the logical charging places to me. The charging time is not 'wasted' then On-street chargers will eventually become widespread - in cities/large towns initially. But, indeed, home (overnight)or work charging facilities are currently a virtual requirement.
		
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My pal has an ev (no home charging) and I don't know how he does it.  It would drive me insane.  He saves a lot of money but the hassle isn't worth it (for me).
I had a face on me like a smacked arse when my wife said her company where swapping the cars out (we had a amg E class merc)
I nearly cried when a battery on wheels turned up.   It was very short lived as they drive better and all the negative things I heard about charging didn't actually exist.   I nearly throw up when I drive my sisters diesel now 🤣.

I'm not referring to anyone specifically here but most people who throw obstacles in the way of owning one can't see the wood through the trees (including me)

My friend who owns a shelby gt500 import does want to punch me in the face each time I turn up for golf though 🤕
I reversed over his clubs last month. He put them behind my car as I was reversing. He said he didn't hear the car start and didn't know what the bleeping was


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			...
My friend who owns a shelby gt500 import does want to punch me in the face each time I turn up for golf though 🤕
I reversed over his clubs last month. He put them behind my car as I was reversing. He said he didn't hear the car start and didn't know what the bleeping was
		
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An unforseen disadvantage! Not one you are likely to make behind his - nor my golfing mate's Merc AMG 6.3 that sounds superb, both idling and roaring up the (Nat Speed Limit) road.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 6, 2022)

If anyone charges a hybrid at a rapid charger then they are wasting their time and blocking a charger for someone else.

A hybrid can only trickle charge, so a low powered charger like you see free at the supermarket is fine, or a home charger or 3 pin plug.

With a full EV , If you have a reasonable commute, 35 miles each way, you will need to recharge every couple of days, home charging or charging at the office is best.

I know a number of people who bought full EV’s with no charging facilities at home, and hadnt thought through how they were going to charge their cars.

2 go to a rapid charger near their respective homes about 9:30 pm as the charger is normally quiet then.
back home for 10:30 with another 200 miles in the tank.

But it’s all down to how you use them, low use, you can get away with charging anywhere

Moderate to high use Home / office charging is a must, if you can avoid the rapid charging infrastructure You will be doing yourself a favour, even though it has improved in the last couple of years, it has a very long way to go


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			An unforseen disadvantage! Not one you are likely to make behind his - nor my golfing mate's Merc AMG 6.3 that sounds superb, both idling and roaring up the (Nat Speed Limit) road.
		
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The club said "given, your shelby sounds like car porn" however, can you maybe be considerate of the first tee when you start up!!!!! " 😂


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If anyone charges a hybrid at a rapid charger then they are wasting their time and blocking a charger for someone else.

A hybrid can only trickle charge, so a low powered charger like you see free at the supermarket is fine, or a home charger or 3 pin plug.

With a full EV , If you have a reasonable commute, 35 miles each way, you will need to recharge every couple of days, home charging or charging at the office is best.

I know a number of people who bought full EV’s with no charging facilities at home, and hadnt thought through how they were going to charge their cars.

2 go to a rapid charger near their respective homes about 9:30 pm as the charger is normally quiet then.
back home for 10:30 with another 200 miles in the tank.

But it’s all down to how you use them, low use, you can get away with charging anywhere

Moderate to high use Home / office charging is a must, if you can avoid the rapid charging infrastructure You will be doing yourself a favour, even though it has improved in the last couple of years, it has a very long way to go
		
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Nio in China have developed a pull in station that swaps the batter out (not a concept, its up and running) .  They are also developing wireless charging in car parks.  You simply park over a pained coil looking thing on the floor


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Nio in China have developed a pull in station that swaps the batter out.  They are also developing wireless charging in car parks.  You simply park over a pained coil looking thing on the floor







Click to expand...

That be the future
That isn’t the reality now 👍


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			If anyone charges a hybrid at a rapid charger then they are wasting their time and blocking a charger for someone else.

A hybrid can only trickle charge, so a low powered charger like you see free at the supermarket is fine, or a home charger or 3 pin plug.

With a full EV , If you have a reasonable commute, 35 miles each way, you will need to recharge every couple of days, home charging or charging at the office is best.

I know a number of people who bought full EV’s with no charging facilities at home, and hadnt thought through how they were going to charge their cars.

2 go to a rapid charger near their respective homes about 9:30 pm as the charger is normally quiet then.
back home for 10:30 with another 200 miles in the tank.

But it’s all down to how you use them, low use, you can get away with charging anywhere

Moderate to high use Home / office charging is a must, if you can avoid the rapid charging infrastructure You will be doing yourself a favour, even though it has improved in the last couple of years, it has a very long way to go
		
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Very informative (as was the last post by hovis). I’ve ordered one on a lease and get a home charger installed free of charge (and 5000 miles credited to my electricity account at home if I change to Octopus’ GO tariff). 

I’m hopeful we’ll get a charger installed at work at some point (as a few have made the move), but it’s not a big deal if not - it’s a 40 mile round trip and home charging is fine (and we have loads of petrol stations, supermarkets near by that can facilitate if required). 

We’d just need to figure out what we’d do on long trips away but this will just become part of planning the trip and knowing where we need to charge. 

Only 50 weeks to go 🥴


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			That be the future
That isn’t the reality now 👍
		
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No no.  Its live.  They've just celebrated something like their 100,000th swap.  I know Elon is taken them to court saying the pattent is too broad


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Very informative (as was the last post by hovis). I’ve ordered one on a lease and get a home charger installed free of charge (and 5000 miles credited to my electricity account at home if I change to Octopus’ GO tariff).

I’m hopeful we’ll get a charger installed at work at some point (as a few have made the move), but it’s not a big deal if not - it’s a 40 mile round trip and home charging is fine (and we have loads of petrol stations, supermarkets near by that can facilitate if required).

We’d just need to figure out what we’d do on long trips away but this will just become part of planning the trip and knowing where we need to charge.

Only 50 weeks to go 🥴
		
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Just Google "instavolt" .  Their network is rapid chargers that don't need subscription.  You just plug in, bleep your bank card and your away.   It's not cheep but still cheaper than fuel.  Most of them are at mcdonald's and morrisons so you can eat or shop.   Just be careful as they charge fast. If you only wanted a little charge to get you home you need to monitor the consumption.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			No no.  Its live.  They've just celebrated something like their 100,000th swap.  I know Elon is taken them to court saying the pattent is too broad






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Good stuff
Might be the reality in China , but it’s not here yet


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			Just Google "instavolt" .  Their network is rapid chargers that don't need subscription.  You just plug in, bleep your bank card and your away.   It's not cheep but still cheaper than fuel.  Most of them are at mcdonald's and morrisons so you can eat or shop.   Just be careful as they charge fast. If you only wanted a little charge to get you home you need to monitor the consumption.
		
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we’ve got an instavolt at smyths down the road😂

Tesco is podpoint I believe


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good 


Aztecs27 said:



			we’ve got an instavolt at smyths down the road😂

Tesco is podpoint I believe
		
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It is. My home charger is pod point so I get free charging.  There not very fast there though.  Quick enough to give you back what used on the trip though 🤷‍♂️
		
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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Our company will pay for the installation of an at home charger. I've not done it yet as we're moving house.  Once we've done that, then I'll get one installed. At the moment I'm just charging it overnight off the 3 pin plug in the garage.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Our company will pay for the installation of an at home charger. I've not done it yet as we're moving house.  Once we've done that, then I'll get one installed. At the moment I'm just charging it overnight off the 3 pin plug in the garage.
		
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Is your car type 2? If so I fully recommend getting a tethered one so your lead can travel with you without having to undo each night 

It's worth it


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## hovis (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is your car type 2? If so I fully recommend getting a tethered one so your lead can travel with you without having to undo each night

It's worth it
		
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This ☝️


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			This ☝️
		
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Makes it easier for My wife for sure. She just got back from the gym and I asked her to plug in the car 

Done it, no issue 

I would bet any money that if she had to faff about with the cable in the boot she would get me to do it lol 

Also makes for a quick get away in the mornings it's raining cats and dogs


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Makes it easier for My wife for sure. She just got back from the gym and I asked her to plug in the car

Done it, no issue

I would bet any money that if she had to faff about with the cable in the boot she would get me to do it lol

Also makes for a quick get away in the mornings it's raining cats and dogs
		
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I have an absolutely beautiful Hypervolt charger that is tethered. Can change the colours, brightness and even unlock/lock it to prevent any unwanted using it. The one thing I cannot use it for is to charge my car as that is still stuck in a Chesterfield dealership with an extremely annoying lady who seems to have visions above her pay grade. Anyway, it’s closer and maybe the charger will be less of an ornament in the coming weeks….


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## Robster59 (Jul 6, 2022)

Yes. It's Type 2. Thanks for the tip.


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 6, 2022)

Actually more than 52 weeks. FFS 😭


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## Oddsocks (Jul 6, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Is your car type 2? If so I fully recommend getting a tethered one so your lead can travel with you without having to undo each night

It's worth it
		
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Only problem with this is replacing the leads on a tethered unit is expensive. 

I used to sell EV chargers and the cost of a lead alone is a lot cheaper than paying a charger manufacture the call out charge for an engineer to change a cable (common was people over winding then and pulling them lose or running over the plug)

Some done it on their own but of it was am rfid based unit and the settings for reset you’d have to call the engineer anyway.

Compare replacing the lead on a kettle against a whole new kettle, then times it by 10!


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2022)

Why would I need 10 kettles ???


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Why would I need 10 kettles ??? 

Click to expand...

You old duffers drink lots of tea.

IEC kettle lead £3-5, new kettle £30+ Same principle changing a lead on a tethered charger


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			You old duffers drink lots of tea.

IEC kettle lead £3-5, new kettle £30+ Same principle changing a lead on a tethered charger
		
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''I'll have you know I'm very nearly an old aged pensioner'' (Greengrass, C.J. 1992)


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Only problem with this is replacing the leads on a tethered unit is expensive.

I used to sell EV chargers and the cost of a lead alone is a lot cheaper than paying a charger manufacture the call out charge for an engineer to change a cable (common was people over winding then and pulling them lose or running over the plug)

Some done it on their own but of it was am rfid based unit and the settings for reset you’d have to call the engineer anyway.

Compare replacing the lead on a kettle against a whole new kettle, then times it by 10!
		
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The way I factored it was I got the charge point installed 

It has a 3 year warranty believe it was 

So after that if it fails I can either get a cable replacement or just a new charge point as the majority of the work is there then 

For example now I know more about chargers I want a zappi .. because of their ability to charge off excess solar .. but I won't pay to have one put in when nothing wrong with mine 

Then again as an aside I'm having a charger / car issue .. only affects Thursday mornings it's so strange 

3 out of 4 Thursdays same issue. Last night managed to be up at the time it stopped and got it going 

Works every other night fine lol we believe it's the car got a gremlin in the system 

Charger seems fine itself .. I mean charged it to 100% last night and always does on a Friday ...

Strange.

But might have fixed it.. I'll test in 2 weeks time again ..

Work around easily. I mean I only charged it last night because I wanted to report back to vauxhall after they looked at it and found no issue


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

Zappi are a great unit and defo one of the better ones, if I recall the cost difference between untether and tethered was about £90 to the installer (cost of a standard over the counter type 2 lead at the time)

But, if you tethered lead becomes damaged and you need a zappi approve contractor to came and change the lead to maintain  the warranty of the unit, ensure you have plenty of lubrication on hand for when you receive the invoice because it’s going to hurt.

Another thing to account for is units such as projectEv have side plug access (right side as you look at it) which restricts the location. Our semi has the garage to the right of the house and I wanted to install a charger on the left pillar of the garage as it’s most tucked away, I couldn’t do that with a projectEv, zappi I could as the plug is central.

Since syncEv has been purchased by the luceco group they have launched some great and compact models so worth a look, I really like the newer EASEE units but haven’t looked at the newer specs.

People do need to ensure that they are buying units with earth protection modules as standard as the additional cost of a stand alone plus the requirement for a second earth rod is a ball ache.

I’d also recommend a unit with earth clamps for load monitoring.  We have a 50a supply in the garage so when mine goes in it will be complete with cT clamps.  While the tumble is on it will only allow the charge to run at 3.6kw or in some cases lower depending on what’s on in the house, but the clamps will give the unit full juice when safe to do so.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Zappi are a great unit and defo one of the better ones, if I recall the cost difference between untether and tethered was about £90 to the installer (cost of a standard over the counter type 2 lead at the time)

But, if you tethered lead becomes damaged and you need a zappi approve contractor to came and change the lead to maintain  the warranty of the unit, ensure you have plenty of lubrication on hand for when you receive the invoice because it’s going to hurt.
		
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Would that not be under the warranty if it fail?

Have to admit for me I prefer it by a way

But then non tethered are future proof .. just what suited me and I'd recommend for most


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Would that not be under the warranty if it fail?

Have to admit for me I prefer it by a way

But then non tethered are future proof .. just what suited me and I'd recommend for most
		
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Not covered under warranty as wear and tear component, just like window wipers or brake pads on a new car.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Not covered under warranty as wear and tear component, just like window wipers or brake pads on a new car.
		
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Fair enough, I would have thought as I can't replace it that became part of it .. where as untethered it wouldn't be


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Fair enough, I would have thought as I can't replace it that became part of it .. where as untethered it wouldn't be
		
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It’s understandable, how can they be responsible if you pull in your drive, run the lead over and crush the plug.

I’ve also seen many occasions where people locate them behind their bins and then hit the bins pulling onto the drive which crush the unit and then question why it’s not under warranty.

“ sorry sir but the unit wasn’t designed to withstand being stuck between a 3ton car and a brick pillar “


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It’s understandable, how can they be responsible if you pull in your drive, run the lead over and crush the plug.

I’ve also seen many occasions where people locate them behind their bins and then hit the bins pulling onto the drive which crush the unit and then question why it’s not under warranty.

“ sorry sir but the unit wasn’t designed to withstand being stuck between a 3ton car and a brick pillar “
		
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See that I could fully understand and I wouldn't claim 

If it was run over lol (even tho they are built to be driven over the cable anyways)

But I'd expect a faulty cable to be replaced 

Live and learn

I'd still get another tethered as I'm all about ease of use for it 

That's why it is set to charge every night same time 

And when the battery comes it will be live every evening 7-7 as I won't have to avoid many times anymore ..


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

It’s definitely about finding what’s right for you.  I 100% agree on the ease of a tethered unit, I used to hate opening the garage to put the 3pin system away in the morning when it was pouring. In the end I put a timer on that socket and used to leave the charger inside a recycling bin, which is ironic as I headed up the EV charger side of a wholesaler business.


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It’s definitely about finding what’s right for you.  I 100% agree on the ease of a tethered unit, I used to hate opening the garage to put the 3pin system away in the morning when it was pouring. In the end I put a timer on that socket and used to leave the charger inside a recycling bin, which is ironic as I headed up the EV charger side of a wholesaler business.
		
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I'll take you off my list if you can sort me out a cheap 'off the back of a lorry' Zappi  🔌


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

If I can sort one I’m calling dibs! I never got round to fitting one while renovating the house as costs were creeping up (at the time I owned an EV so would have had the grant)  while heading up the EV devision for a wholesaler I was between electric and diesel (irony) and have now moved sectors and with the grands stopping any favours available are being utilised by myself. Sorry sir.


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			If I can sort one I’m calling dibs! I never got round to fitting one while renovating the house as costs were creeping up (at the time I owned an EV so would have had the grant)  while heading up the EV devision for a wholesaler I was between electric and diesel (irony) and have now moved sectors and with the grands stopping any favours available are being utilised by myself. Sorry sir.
		
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Never mind.
Back on the list


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Never mind.
Back on the list  

Click to expand...

Expect nothing else


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 7, 2022)

Baz, you have any opinion on the Ohme Home Pro? I get one installed at home included in my EV package. But can upgrade to other options for a cost


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Baz, you have any opinion on the Ohme Home Pro? I get one installed at home included in my EV package. But can upgrade to other options for a cost
		
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Leave with me sir, I’ll do some digging on specs over the next couple of days but there is really only a few things that need to be key:

* app management, this will allow you to monitor charge rates etc, but also preset charge start/finish times.  This works effectively like the old economy 7, preset the charger to start when your tarring goes off peak and set a finish time (6am etc) it will also allow you to shut the charge down when your not home so randoms can’t pull up and charge foc

*rfid(is normally on upgrade models) but will only allow people with fobs to activate it.  Ie you and the misses have a fob each.  If neither of you are home the unit is dead.  However if both sync’d via an app you call allow a neighbour to use is by connecting remotely.  This is done pretty easy as most chargers link straight into your home Wi-Fi or via an Ethernet link if over 20m away from router.


* type a rcd build in (this will trip of there is a fault and not trip your dist board)

* earth leakage protection build in (no need for secondary earth protection)

* load balancing (stops tripping of the board is under full load, this is typically around evening times when the kettle is boiling, electric ovens and microwaves are all on, maybe the tumble is going and the immersion if applicable is on full).  Most people have the conception that they have a 100am supply because the mainswitch on their board says 100a, but a lot have 63a.

I’ll do some digging bud, email me your options and I’ll take a look


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 7, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			Leave with me sir, I’ll do some digging on specs over the next couple of days but there is really only a few things that need to be key:

* app management, this will allow you to monitor charge rates etc, but also preset charge start/finish times.  This works effectively like the old economy 7, preset the charger to start when your tarring goes off peak and set a finish time (6am etc) it will also allow you to shut the charge down when your not home so randoms can’t pull up and charge foc

*rfid(is normally on upgrade models) but will only allow people with fobs to activate it.  Ie you and the misses have a fob each.  If neither of you are home the unit is dead.  However if both sync’d via an app you call allow a neighbour to use is by connecting remotely.  This is done pretty easy as most chargers link straight into your home Wi-Fi or via an Ethernet link if over 20m away from router.


* type a rcd build in (this will trip of there is a fault and not trip your dist board)

* earth leakage protection build in (no need for secondary earth protection)

* load balancing (stops tripping of the board is under full load, this is typically around evening times when the kettle is boiling, electric ovens and microwaves are all on, maybe the tumble is going and the immersion if applicable is on full).  Most people have the conception that they have a 100am supply because the mainswitch on their board says 100a, but a lot have 63a.

I’ll do some digging bud, email me your options and I’ll take a look
		
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Will do, thanks mate. No rush, got approx 9 months to sort it before my delivery date is even a thing 😂


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## Oddsocks (Jul 7, 2022)

No worries. I’m just going to opt out and get a really fast Smelly diesel with a huge boot!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 8, 2022)

I was at the Scottish Open today, sponsored by Genesis, posh Hyundai. Anyway, loads to look at put your head in. Looked very nice, inside and out.

The nice lady said whilst the claimed mileage was 350 plus the real world was about 300. That's enough, for me anyway.

If anyone is thinking of going electric then I'd suggest having a look at this brand. I can't comment on how they drive but they looked great 😄


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## pauljames87 (Jul 8, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was at the Scottish Open today, sponsored by Genesis, posh Hyundai. Anyway, loads to look at put your head in. Looked very nice, inside and out.

The nice lady said whilst the claimed mileage was 350 plus the real world was about 300. That's enough, for me anyway.

If anyone is thinking of going electric then I'd suggest having a look at this brand. I can't comment on how they drive but they looked great 😄
		
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they are the same as kia aswell so they also one to consider

I think they are becoming the real game changers to challenge tesla 

MG is cheap though, see so many of them now as private hire cars because they are like 280 miles range


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			they are the same as kia aswell so they also one to consider

I think they are becoming the real game changers to challenge tesla

MG is cheap though, see so many of them now as private hire cars because they are like 280 miles range
		
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The only thing that might hamper Genesis is when other mfrs sue them for the clearly lifted emblem and car designs 😳😄. We thought we were seeing Aston Martins as we approached the course and had multiple player courtesy cars passing us 😁


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## road2ruin (Jul 9, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



*The only thing that might hamper Genesis* is when other mfrs sue them for the clearly lifted emblem and car designs 😳😄. We thought we were seeing Aston Martins as we approached the course and had multiple player courtesy cars passing us 😁
		
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Isn’t the price on the Genesis pretty high? The Kia/Hyundai are the main stream brands with the Genesis being the more prestige variant?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Isn’t the price on the Genesis pretty high? The Kia/Hyundai are the main stream brands with the Genesis being the more prestige variant?
		
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Yes, it's their equivalent of Lexus for Toyota but I had a quick look yesterday and I don't think they were silly, define silly of course. As much as anything right now I'm looking down the line and the more options out there the better. It should drive prices down, lengthen range etc. 

The cars I saw yesterday looked like cars I'd want to drive. They looked like regular shaped cars that happened to be electric. They were also sexy inside. All of that is a positive, even if I can't justify the price currently. Hopefully the other mfrs will be watching and aiming for the same, or better.


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## LCW (Jul 9, 2022)

I am looking at replacing our car that does our longer journeys. I would love to get an electric car and it’s my first time researching them and boy was it it an eye opener. I have have come to the conclusion that they are not remotely affordable for someone like me. 

Out of interest I was looking at the kias and Skodas on the web (I dismissed a Tesla as I knew the cost would be mental).  Looking at what I would call a middle of the range brand the retail pricing is basically 45-50k for either if you want any kind of mileage range.  I’d dread to think what bmw and Audi for example cost. I looked at some lease deals and monthly, it’s basically what I pay for the mortgage.  Even used prices seems to be extremely high given the difficulty and the waiting lists on new e-cars. 

Don’t see me ever owning one due to the mental costs that don’t seem to be tumbling but are going up, like everything I suppose. 

According to a conversation I over heard about having a nice car once what should I do, oh yes just work harder.


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 9, 2022)

LCW said:



			I am looking at replacing our car that does our longer journeys. I would love to get an electric car and it’s my first time researching them and boy was it it an eye opener. I have have come to the conclusion that they are not remotely affordable for someone like me.

Out of interest I was looking at the kias and Skodas on the web (I dismissed a Tesla as I knew the cost would be mental).  Looking at what I would call a middle of the range brand the retail pricing is basically 45-50k for either if you want any kind of mileage range.  I’d dread to think what bmw and Audi for example cost. I looked at some lease deals and monthly, it’s basically what I pay for the mortgage.  Even used prices seems to be extremely high given the difficulty and the waiting lists on new e-cars.

Don’t see me ever owning one due to the mental costs that don’t seem to be tumbling but are going up, like everything I suppose.

According to a conversation I over heard about having a nice car once what should I do, oh yes just work harder.
		
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Not cheap for sure, but worth a look at octopus ev salary sacrifice lease scheme. It’s a bit like cycle to work but for EVs. The best part is everything (including insurance and breakdown as well as usual lease stuff like services and tyres) is included. So it’s literally just the cost to charge it, which, however you look at it, will be cheaper than fuel.


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## LCW (Jul 9, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Not cheap for sure, but worth a look at octopus ev salary sacrifice lease scheme. It’s a bit like cycle to work but for EVs. The best part is everything (including insurance and breakdown as well as usual lease stuff like services and tyres) is included. So it’s literally just the cost to charge it, which, however you look at it, will be cheaper than fuel.
		
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Thanks will take a look. Never heard of this scheme/site.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 9, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			Not cheap for sure, but worth a look at octopus ev salary sacrifice lease scheme. It’s a bit like cycle to work but for EVs. The best part is everything (including insurance and breakdown as well as usual lease stuff like services and tyres) is included. So it’s literally just the cost to charge it, which, however you look at it, will be cheaper than fuel.
		
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Just look at the contract small print incase you ever fancy leaving you job as I think from member the reduced costs expire to full lease value and I’m not sure if there’s a clause that or can’t be transferred over.


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## bobmac (Jul 10, 2022)

420kwh charger   
Holy Moly...


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2022)

As I left work yest I was speaking to a colleague and he is looking at second hand i3 for a second car , which he will share with his sister as he borrows her car for work whilst his Mrs has the big car for the kids.

I asked about charging for him 
Apparently she lives in a new build flat, with underground parking and electric points , tap your card and it bills your flat for the charge 

Fantastic idea


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## Oddsocks (Jul 18, 2022)

Good to see the developer has taken the initiative to put an RFID based system in.  Taking into account that it’s flats, the management company will make more of EV long term than they will off management costs as they can set their own charging rates.  When electric was 20p/kWh I was aware of a management company charging 35p/kWh.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 18, 2022)

Watched the last top gear last night, the synthetic fuel option could be a real goer if the price comes down


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

So after 256 days of waiting the trailer arrived at 8:30am this morning with the new motor! The first thing to say is that I am a very tech savvy person but even I feel a little overwhelmed by the amount of buttons/menus/settings there are in the car however the driving is simple, put it in 'D' and off you go!! It's very fast and amazingly quiet especially having been in the wife's Mini Convertible for the last 6 weeks or so!!

Timing of the delivery was brilliant as I've spent a couple of hours today working whilst sat in the back seats with the air con on full with the laptop plugged in!!


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So after 256 days of waiting the trailer arrived at 8:30am this morning with the new motor! The first thing to say is that I am a very tech savvy person but even I feel a little overwhelmed by the amount of buttons/menus/settings there are in the car however the driving is simple, put it in 'D' and off you go!! It's very fast and amazingly quiet especially having been in the wife's Mini Convertible for the last 6 weeks or so!!

Timing of the delivery was brilliant as I've spent a couple of hours today working whilst sat in the back seats with the air con on full with the laptop plugged in!! 

View attachment 43534

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Nice. My boys like the Ioniq5. What is the golf bag capacity like?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

Very smart, nice design. Are the wheels really big or is that a bit of an optical illusion?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very smart, nice design. Are the wheels really big or is that a bit of an optical illusion?
		
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The front wheels look massive and the back wheels look small so I'm guessing it's the angle the photo has been taken from.


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Nice. My boys like the Ioniq5. What is the golf bag capacity like?
		
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I haven't tried as yet although I know the boot size is a shade larger than my old Audi S4. I plan to have a play around tomorrow when it's not quite so hot, will let you know.


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very smart, nice design. Are the wheels really big or is that a bit of an optical illusion?
		
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They're 20" alloys so fairly large although don't look ridiculous as the car is actually larger than it looks if that makes sense!!



ColchesterFC said:



			The front wheels look massive and the back wheels look small so I'm guessing it's the angle the photo has been taken from.
		
Click to expand...

I think that's a combo of my angle and the pretty steep drive!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2022)

Blimey, is there a reason they are so big? Or do you just like a bit of bling


----------



## Ethan (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I haven't tried as yet although I know the boot size is a shade larger than my old Audi S4. I plan to have a play around tomorrow when it's not quite so hot, will let you know.
		
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I had a test drive in a Genesis GV70 at the weekend, petrol version but same body size. I asked the guy if he minded if I tried my clubs in the back, and he laughed and said "Sure, loads of people have done the same already". It fitted well. Considering the forthcoming EV version.


----------



## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Blimey, is there a reason they are so big? Or do you just like a bit of bling 

Click to expand...

No idea to be honest, they came as standard on this spec car. I think the lower spec has 19”.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			No idea to be honest, they came as standard on this spec car. I think the lower spec has 19”.
		
Click to expand...

Lovely car . Beautiful 

Get your charger etc ready?


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Lovely car . Beautiful

Get your charger etc ready?
		
Click to expand...

Yep, I've been ready to go since March!!  Got a Hypervolt installed whilst the grant was in place.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Yep, I've been ready to go since March!!  Got a Hypervolt installed whilst the grant was in place.
		
Click to expand...

Sensible, you will love it. Even with little issues now and again with the Corsa I wouldn't want to buy another ice car if possible 

The experience is just too good, nice to drive, easy to fill up (if at home) just relaxing 

Precondition today was a god send both leaving for and leaving work.. car was perfect when I got in


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So after 256 days of waiting the trailer arrived at 8:30am this morning with the new motor! The first thing to say is that I am a very tech savvy person but even I feel a little overwhelmed by the amount of buttons/menus/settings there are in the car however the driving is simple, put it in 'D' and off you go!! It's very fast and amazingly quiet especially having been in the wife's Mini Convertible for the last 6 weeks or so!!

Timing of the delivery was brilliant as I've spent a couple of hours today working whilst sat in the back seats with the air con on full with the laptop plugged in!! 

View attachment 43534

Click to expand...

I can order a new EV in December and this is shortlisted depending on what’s coming round the corner.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2022)

The cost advantage of running an EV verses an ICE must be complicated considering the increased cost of Petrol v Electricity.
Maybe they have both increased similarly.  The other consideration is whether either will reduce greater than the other in the medium term.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The cost advantage of running an EV verses an ICE must be complicated considering the increased cost of Petrol v Electricity.
Maybe they have both increased similarly.  The other consideration is whether either will reduce greater than the other in the medium term.
		
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It really depends on personal situations 

If you can charge at home you can still get ev tariffs and they have only risen by 2.5p a Kw for their night rates so 7.5p instead of 5p 

Day rates are 40p (price cap will go above that soon)

So my fill up last night of 20kw would have cost me 50p more than it did before 

20kw is just under half a "tank" so a full tank cheap rates £1.50 call it more 

£1.50 more to go 200 miles 

However on street charging has risen but still it works out cheaper .. I mean Lidl is 25p a kw so cheaper than home for most .. super charge whilst shopping 45kw would be £11.50 to go 200 miles 

Even 60p a kw would be £27 for 200 miles , 
At £1.85 a litre for a car of say 40mpg would be £41.50 50 mpg would be £33 .. 

So you need to go to the extremes of the figures to get them close so it is still cheaper 

Depends on the person


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It really depends on personal situations

Depends on the person
		
Click to expand...

Ultimately it’s this. 

For me I have a home charger, if I had to charge during the day when most expensive it’s 33p kWh so a full charge would be £24 which will take me about 250 miles. Obviously I wouldn’t do that, I’d use my night rate which is 19p so the same 0-100 would be around £14. Even with the price cap increasing in October it’ll still save me money over my ICE and that’s before including the running costs and road tax etc.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Ultimately it’s this.

For me I have a home charger, if I had to charge during the day when most expensive it’s 33p kWh so a full charge would be £24 which will take me about 250 miles. Obviously I wouldn’t do that, I’d use my night rate which is 19p so the same 0-100 would be around £14. Even with the price cap increasing in October it’ll still save me money over my ICE and that’s before including the running costs and road tax etc.
		
Click to expand...

Keep an eye on octupus go

ATM it's 40p day 7.5p night 

With the price cap very likely to go above 40p a unit it could be one to jump on before it goes up and lock for a year 

I'm locked at 14 day 5.5 night until Feb which by then my battery is here and I'll go onto the Tesla plan which is 11p flat rate ATM (was 8p only just changed to a whopping 11 lol)


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## Robster59 (Jul 21, 2022)

I can't wait till we move house.  Then I will get a charger that the company will pay for directly.


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The cost advantage of running an EV verses an ICE must be complicated considering the increased cost of Petrol v Electricity.
Maybe they have both increased similarly.  The other consideration is whether either will reduce greater than the other in the medium term.
		
Click to expand...

You can't buy off-peak diesel or petrol


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You can't buy off-peak diesel or petrol
		
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I’d disagree typically.

Surely it’s just labelled different.  Choosing to fill up at motorway services paying premier prices is no difference to charging your car during peak times, you pay more for convenience.


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I’d disagree typically.

Surely it’s just labelled different.  Choosing to fill up at motorway services paying premier prices is no difference to charging your car during peak times, you pay more for convenience.
		
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But petrol/diesel is the same price at Tesco at 02.30 and 08.30 (assuming open 24hrs)


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			But petrol/diesel is the same price at Tesco at 02.30 and 08.30 (assuming open 24hrs)
		
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I 100% agree and you are 100% correct.  That’s providing you always fill up at the same Tesco.


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			I 100% agree and you are 100% correct.  That’s providing you always fill up at the same Tesco.
		
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Our local Tesco is the only place that has podpoint charging which is free to use. So not much hope of a price reduction any time soon.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when this free charging ends at super markets.  Maybe subsidised charging based on spend?


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It will be interesting to see what happens if/when this free charging ends at super markets.  Maybe subsidised charging based on spend?
		
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I guess it will depend on if the other local supermarkets have chargers installed..... Sainsbury, Aldi and Lidl.
Mcdonalds have applied to have 6 installed but they will be 58p per Kwh.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

But they do a great apple pie when served red hot so by the time the bugger has cooled down my car would be charged. Winner!


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			But they do a great apple pie when served red hot so by the time the bugger has cooled down my car would be charged. Winner!
		
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So forget the charging infrastructure, the cost, the battery density and the range....it's all about cold apple pies  🥧


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## bobmac (Jul 21, 2022)

Ok, it's only a concept car but it can get almost 9 miles per kwh. 
That equates to around 745 miles on one charge
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Mercedes EQ-XX






The cost?
Don't ask


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Hammy will be all over that. He’s a big advocate of EV and loves merc.


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			But they do a great apple pie when served red hot so by the time the bugger has cooled down my car would be charged. Winner!
		
Click to expand...

That’s why you buy a McFlurry and stick the apple pie in it.


----------



## Aztecs27 (Jul 21, 2022)

Oddsocks said:



			It will be interesting to see what happens if/when this free charging ends at super markets.  Maybe subsidised charging based on spend?
		
Click to expand...

hopefuuly it won’t be before I have a chance to take advantage of it next July.


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## Oddsocks (Jul 21, 2022)

Aztecs27 said:



			That’s why you buy a McFlurry and stick the apple pie in it.
		
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I like ya thinking!


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374401373870063629
Fantastic use of old car batteries.. 120,000 miles out of them then used to make a house less reliant on the grid


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 29, 2022)

Having an e208 I’ve just seen some 408 marketing material. 
It’s looking like an attractive option. I have earmarked the EV6 or IONIQ for order later this year but this may be a cheaper alternative and surprisingly I am fond of the Peugeot!  
Hopefully an AWD electric option because i am rinsing tyres!


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## Oddsocks (Jul 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374401373870063629
Fantastic use of old car batteries.. 120,000 miles out of them then used to make a house less reliant on the grid
		
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Working closely with a very experienced solar installer, I was strongly advised not to do any solar installs on my house until the first lot of Tesla batteries get replaced in their cars.  Apparently their battery tech blows everyone else out the water and when they seen their batteries no long fit for primary source EV, they will still outperform most solar branded new batteries that are brand new


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Having an e208 I’ve just seen some 408 marketing material.
It’s looking like an attractive option. I have earmarked the EV6 or IONIQ for order later this year but this may be a cheaper alternative and surprisingly I am fond of the Peugeot! 
Hopefully an AWD electric option because i am rinsing tyres!
		
Click to expand...

thats surprising, are you heavy footed? my tyres after 15000 miles still have plenty of life in, and using the regen braking means the brakes arent as worn as they should be by now

one thing to watch out is ATM PSA seems obsessed with offering just one battery size.. i mean even the 7 seater van using a 50kw battery might aswell run it off AAs


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## tigerwes (Jul 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It really depends on personal situations 

If you can charge at home you can still get ev tariffs and they have only risen by 2.5p a Kw for their night rates so 7.5p instead of 5p 

Day rates are 40p (price cap will go above that soon)

So my fill up last night of 20kw would have cost me 50p more than it did before 

20kw is just under half a "tank" so a full tank cheap rates £1.50 call it more 

£1.50 more to go 200 miles 

However on street charging has risen but still it works out cheaper .. I mean Lidl is 25p a kw so cheaper than home for most .. super charge whilst shopping 45kw would be £11.50 to go 200 miles 

Even 60p a kw would be £27 for 200 miles , 
At £1.85 a litre for a car of say 40mpg would be £41.50 50 mpg would be £33 .. 

So you need to go to the extremes of the figures to get them close so it is still cheaper 

Depends on the person
		
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You also have to factor in the initial outlay for the EV car


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## theoneandonly (Jul 29, 2022)

I tried my mates M5 today .... It's almost enough to make me think about ditching the Taycan turbo 🤣


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## Oddsocks (Aug 9, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I tried my mates M5 today .... It's almost enough to make me think about ditching the Taycan turbo 🤣
		
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The tree huggers will be crying in their   Oat milk latte’s


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## Tashyboy (Sep 26, 2022)

That’s not going to help people change to electric cars. ☹️

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-...by-42-caused-by-rise-in-energy-costs-12705528


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s not going to help people change to electric cars. ☹️

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-...by-42-caused-by-rise-in-energy-costs-12705528

Click to expand...

There has been a few videos on it, rapid chargers are last resort for majority who have them atm. Much like using petrol at a service station . 

At home your still looking at 7.5p a kw at night even during these times


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## hovis (Sep 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s not going to help people change to electric cars. ☹️

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-...by-42-caused-by-rise-in-energy-costs-12705528

Click to expand...

Jesus!!! So what they are doing is comparing the most expensive place you can possibly to charge your car and comparing it against normal petrol prices!!!!  I bet they didn't base their petrol price calculation on service station prices because it doesn't fit their narrative. 
Non electric car owners always assume that we exclusively use these charge points.   In two years I can count on my hands how many times I have.   Today it cost me £4.50 To charge my car for 300 miles and my neighbour is £6/7 for 300 miles (different electric plan).
Who writes these articles!


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			Jesus!!! So what they are doing is comparing the most expensive place you can possibly to charge your car and comparing it against normal petrol prices!!!!  I bet they didn't base their petrol price calculation on service station prices because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Non electric car owners always assume that we exclusively use these charge points.   In two years I can count on my hands how many times I have.   Today it cost me £4.50 To charge my car for 300 miles and my neighbour is £6/7 for 300 miles (different electric plan).
Who writes these articles!
		
Click to expand...

I do tbh make them right to report this as some people have to use these and have no choice in the matter , but need more level to the article rather than just an easy headline 

Like yourself I don't use rapid much, infact I never have 

I'm 17000 miles into my EV driving since January 2020 , no rapid charge and reduced the diesel milage by using the ev wherever possible 

So much so that we thinking now keep the juggernaut until it dies just as a long distance few trips a year car and then get something like the mg4 long range to replace the Corsa and use it more for family trips where we don't need the boot space ie to friends houses for day or just down to cinema etc


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2022)

One of the guys who has a Tesla is currently using a courtesy car - been given an Audi 55 E tron 😲 what a car , stunning inside , no wing mirrors as it uses cameras etc - just a shame it’s 80 grands worth


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## bobmac (Sep 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			Jesus!!! So what they are doing is comparing the most expensive place you can possibly to charge your car and comparing it against normal petrol prices!!!!  I bet they didn't base their petrol price calculation on service station prices because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Non electric car owners always assume that we exclusively use these charge points.   In two years I can count on my hands how many times I have.   Today it cost me £4.50 To charge my car for 300 miles and my neighbour is £6/7 for 300 miles (different electric plan).
Who writes these articles!
		
Click to expand...

My car gets around 50 mpg so 300 would be 6 gallons at todays price 1.79.9 that's about £8 per gallon so 300 miles is £48, or 16p per mile.




			Today it cost me £4.50 To charge my car for 300 miles
		
Click to expand...

I make that 1.5p per mile


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2022)

One problem with EV at the moment is the dealers themsleves 

Some are fantastic some are terrible 

My Corsa has had an intermittent charge problem for 3 months. Not a massive issue but I wanted a new onboard charger put in under warranty

Getting vauxhall to find the fault was comical. Mainly due to my dealer being rubbish 

Confirmed the fault yesterday after it was booked in for 5 days (I insist on getting the electric courtesy car to cover if they muck up) 2 days into the 5 days fault found and part ordered 

3 weeks for part then 2 day repair 

Yet they had the same car same issue in August for 5 days lol 

Don't effect me I can still get to everywhere I need to go but has put me off vauxhall for any future purchases

2 more years of this one then onto one of the mg offerings most likely


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## spongebob59 (Oct 12, 2022)

Damning report on the fair fuel UK site.

https://www.fairfueluk.com/


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## GreiginFife (Oct 12, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Damning report on the fair fuel UK site.

https://www.fairfueluk.com/

Click to expand...

I think they miss the point somewhat. The ban isn't a move to cut cost, it's a move to cut emissions. 

Now if they came back and said, the 2030 ban would substantially increase emissions due to x, y or z processes then they'd have a point. 

Cost is not a valid point IMO.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 13, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Damning report on the fair fuel UK site.

https://www.fairfueluk.com/

Click to expand...

*Climate change deniers in a damning report on EV's shock.*


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## spongebob59 (Oct 13, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I think they miss the point somewhat. The ban isn't a move to cut cost, it's a move to cut emissions.

Now if they came back and said, the 2030 ban would substantially increase emissions due to x, y or z processes then they'd have a point.

Cost is not a valid point IMO.
		
Click to expand...


 Part of their argument is that a total ban is draconian rather than focus on innovation based solutions.
I was listening to the interview on the radio and Cox was saying t he latest generations of diesels have very low emissions, he quoted a European standard that I cant remember.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 13, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Part of their argument is that a total ban is draconian rather than focus on innovation based solutions.
I was listening to the interview on the radio and Cox was saying t he latest generations of diesels have very low emissions, he quoted a European standard that I cant remember.
		
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I haven’t read it, but what does he mean when he says a diesel with “low emissions”? What emissions is he talking about? Most of the time they keep talking CO2 for vehicle emissions when, in the case of diesels, that’s the least problematic. From a CO2 perspective, diesels have been “low” relative to petrol for quite some time (more efficient turbo systems) but diesel is a dirty burning fuel no matter the system it’s burned in.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 13, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I haven’t read it, but what does he mean when he says a diesel with “low emissions”? What emissions is he talking about? Most of the time they keep talking CO2 for vehicle emissions when, in the case of diesels, that’s the least problematic. From a CO2 perspective, diesels have been “low” relative to petrol for quite some time (more efficient turbo systems) but diesel is a dirty burning fuel no matter the system it’s burned in.
		
Click to expand...

My diesel is a "clean" diesel and since the EV I certainly notice the smell more compared to before when it was just there 

Much like an ex smoker can't stand the smell of fags 

But yes the cost argument was never the point it was to reduce emissions , and slowly reduce the use of fossil fuels.. yes you will need some oil still and the grid will slowly need to be moved to greener but the end result is greener for sure.


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## pool888 (Oct 13, 2022)

We run a fleet of HGV's, I would say 75% of our workshop costs for tractor units are due to ever stricter emmisions related components. Adblue systems, DPF's, EGR valves, nox sensors, all prone to problems.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

Very impressive.. street in North London. Not my charger I should add I just saw it on my travels. 

Need more things like this


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 44975


Very impressive.. street in North London. Not my charger I should add I just saw it on my travels.

Need more things like this
		
Click to expand...

Not at all impressive; a huge H & S hazard to pedestrians.  Little or no thought has been given to that.  I'd have to question if that is an official installation; if it is someone wants sacking.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not at all impressive; a huge H & S hazard to pedestrians.  Little or no thought has been given to that.  I'd have to question if that is an official installation; if it is someone wants sacking.
		
Click to expand...


Got to say it looks like a bodge job. You would never install the socket on the removable door!

Also questioning the amount of power you can draw. Normally a lamp post would only have a piddly 6A supply.


----------



## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not at all impressive; a huge H & S hazard to pedestrians.  Little or no thought has been given to that.  I'd have to question if that is an official installation; if it is someone wants sacking.
		
Click to expand...

Problem is there is no health and safety that covers trip hazards having looked into it before.

There is a guy near me that charges his Tesla off a 3 pin socket and runs the cable over the pavement to his car at night 

Out of curiousity I looked into it and there is no law to cover it, only says the cable should not be there when the car is not charging..so when full needs removing 

Quick check says it's such a grey area. 

https://topcharger.co.uk/can-i-charge-my-car-over-the-pavement/ 

It is an official install as in this area If you don't have a drive they will do a lamppost in your street near your house 

There is also these..




In the first instance I would say if he was parked right next to Lampost it would be better .. but the space was clearly not free and he's run to the space behind 

Still solutions being put out there..better than sticking our heads in the old sand.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Got to say it looks like a bodge job. You would never install the socket on the removable door!

Also questioning the amount of power you can draw. Normally a lamp post would only have a piddly 6A supply.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.ubitricity.com/

More information here


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.ubitricity.com/

More information here
		
Click to expand...

Think it’s all the black mastic that makes it look like a bodge! The ones on the website look more purpose made. 
says they are for long term charging so must be like a granny charger? 

I would be interested in seeing inside the lamp post as the website says the charger is rated at a Max 5kw (25amp) I wonder how it achieves that from a lamp post supply?  If I see one I will take the cover off and have a look-see


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Think it’s all the black mastic that makes it look like a bodge! The ones on the website look more purpose made.
says they are for long term charging so must be like a granny charger?

I would be interested in seeing inside the lamp post as the website says the charger is rated at a Max 5kw (25amp) I wonder how it achieves that from a lamp post supply?  If I see one I will take the cover off and have a look-see
		
Click to expand...

Probably limited at granny speed but you adapt, I can granny charge at work but it works out 5% an hour. 12 hour shift tomorrow I'll be at about 50% when I come in so I'll leave work full


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Problem is there is no health and safety that covers trip hazards having looked into it before.

There is a guy near me that charges his Tesla off a 3 pin socket and runs the cable over the pavement to his car at night

Out of curiousity I looked into it and there is no law to cover it, only says the cable should not be there when the car is not charging..so when full needs removing

*Quick check says it's such a grey area.*

https://topcharger.co.uk/can-i-charge-my-car-over-the-pavement/

Click to expand...

It would appear to be pretty black & white.

Highways Act 1980;

162 Penalty for placing rope, etc. across highway.

A person who for any purpose places any rope,* wire or other apparatus* across a highway in such a manner as to be likely to cause danger to persons using the highway is, unless he proves that he had taken all necessary means to give adequate warning of the danger, guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding [F657level 3 on the standard scale].

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66



pauljames87 said:



			It is an official install as in this area If you don't have a drive they will do a lamppost in your street near your house

There is also these..

View attachment 44976


In the first instance I would say if he was parked right next to Lampost it would be better .. but the space was clearly not free and he's run to the space behind

*Still solutions being put out there..better than sticking our heads in the old sand.*

Click to expand...

If there's a head being stuck in the sand here it's yours for trying to dismiss such an obvious H & S hazard.  If chargers are put in safely there's no issue with them, but that is clearly not safe to anyone with any degree of common sense; the fact that it is not yet in a H & S manual is no excuse.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Probably limited at granny speed but you adapt, I can granny charge at work but it works out 5% an hour. 12 hour shift tomorrow I'll be at about 50% when I come in so I'll leave work full
		
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With the sharp increase in electricity costs I wonder how much longer companies will tolerate people charging at work? I know of one large building company (owned by a French multi-National) that will not let it’s site managers charge on site.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			With the sharp increase in electricity costs I wonder how much longer companies will tolerate people charging at work? I know of one large building company (owned by a French multi-National) that will not let it’s site managers charge on site.
		
Click to expand...

Any chance it'll be taxed as a benefit in kind?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Any chance it'll be taxed as a benefit in kind? 

Click to expand...

Now that really IS a grey area, how will you be able to measure how much electricity someone has used plugging into a socket in a canteen and running it out the window? 😁


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Now that really IS a grey area, how will you be able to measure how much electricity someone has used plugging into a socket in a canteen and running it out the window? 😁
		
Click to expand...

Indeed.  Can't see it ever happening but it came to mind because some of our staff were suggesting that it should a BIK if you had parking at work as others had to pay for theirs, seemed to come under a similar umbrella.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			It would appear to be pretty black & white.

Highways Act 1980;

162 Penalty for placing rope, etc. across highway.

A person who for any purpose places any rope,* wire or other apparatus* across a highway in such a manner as to be likely to cause danger to persons using the highway is, unless he proves that he had taken all necessary means to give adequate warning of the danger, guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding [F657level 3 on the standard scale].

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66



If there's a head being stuck in the sand here it's yours for trying to dismiss such an obvious H & S hazard.  If chargers are put in safely there's no issue with them, but that is clearly not safe to anyone with any degree of common sense; the fact that it is not yet in a H & S manual is no excuse.
		
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I know you love to disagree with anything and you are in an even more grumpy mood than normal due to your injury 

so ill agreed to disagree.

Lovely to see smart people coming up with ideas around issues and hopefully they will solve the other bits soon to make sure it meets health and safety aswell.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I know you love to disagree with anything and you are in an even more grumpy mood than normal due to your injury

so ill agreed to disagree.

Lovely to see smart people coming up with ideas around issues and hopefully they will solve the other bits soon to make sure it meets health and safety aswell.
		
Click to expand...

It should meet H&S first not after install.
I can see someone tripping and the owner in court.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			It should meet H&S first not after install.
I can see someone tripping and the owner in court.
		
Click to expand...

Considering the council install these I think in this case the council would be liable so health and safety must have been given some kind of waiver or why would they put it in?

The same council say you can't run cables fr your house to your car but then put in these lamposts


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering the council install these I think in this case the council would be liable so health and safety must have been given some kind of waiver or why would they put it in?

The same council say you can't run cables fr your house to your car but then put in these lamposts
		
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A lot of things have been dropped in the planning these days.
What about a blind person ?
These cables need a lot more thought .
They will just sue the council it’s their job to keep pavements safe, or was.


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## Imurg (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering the council install these I think in this case the council would be liable so health and safety must have been given some kind of waiver or why would they put it in?

The same council say you can't run cables fr your house to your car but then put in these lamposts
		
Click to expand...

If that Council is like our Council it has many arms and none of them have a clue what the others are doing....


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			A lot of things have been dropped in the planning these days.
What about a blind person ?
These cables need a lot more thought .
They will just sue the council it’s their job to keep pavements safe, or was.
		
Click to expand...





The offending Lampost , it's for those marked bays as opposed to just along pavement


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## bobmac (Oct 29, 2022)

5 years ago


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## bobmac (Oct 29, 2022)

9 mins 50


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			9 mins 50






Click to expand...

What a simple yet brilliant idea , I should send this to the guy with the Tesla down the road lol


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 44977


The offending Lampost , it's for those marked bays as opposed to just along pavement
		
Click to expand...

The cable will still be on almost 1/3 rd of the pavement though.
In our H&S obsessed councils I find that very strange.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			The cable will still be on almost 1/3 rd of the pavement though.
In our H&S obsessed councils I find that very strange.
		
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maybe promoting green and moving to net zero is being prioritised with the fines just paid out for claims , mitigation, how many injured would be had over the need to move over


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			The cable will still be on almost 1/3 rd of the pavement though.
In our H&S obsessed councils I find that very strange.
		
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Looking at the picture, it seems like the council has supplied the socket, but it will be the car owner plugging the lead in and connecting to the car.  I suspect that any case would be against the car owner looking at that section from the Highways Act; the council will side-step any liability.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			maybe promoting green and moving to net zero is being prioritised with the fines just paid out for claims , mitigation, how many injured would be had over the need to move over
		
Click to expand...

One fatality is one to many for me.
The state of the NHS and ambulance waiting times we should not be putting tripping hazards on the pavements.
The need to move over I get but safely is a must.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Looking at the picture, it seems like the council has supplied the socket, but it will be the car owner plugging the lead in and connecting to the car.  I suspect that any case would be against the car owner looking at that section from the Highways Act; the council will side-step any liability.
		
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Yes so your car insurance will go up to cover the cost.
The council should not be able to just wring their hands of any blame.
If I was doing that risk assessment no way that gets the go ahead.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes so your car insurance will go up to cover the cost.
The council should not be able to just wring their hands of any blame.
If I was doing that risk assessment no way that gets the go ahead.
		
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I don’t necessarily disagree that there is an onus on them to do something to mitigate the possibilities, or that the design leaves something to be desired but I believe the bottom line would be that whoever plugs the vehicle in is responsible for making the cable safe.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			I don’t necessarily disagree that there is an onus on them to do something to mitigate the possibilities, or that the design leaves something to be desired but I believe the bottom line would be that whoever plugs the vehicle in is responsible for making the cable safe.
		
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Yes but by the nature of the installation you can’t avoid a tripping hazard.
If your crossing the road and go between two cars at night the cable is in your path.
You could be hidden by the cars and be there all night with head injuries or a broken pelvis.
I get the need to change the way we do things ,but that is not it imo.
Back to the drawing board I am afraid.
It looks like a cost cutting basic answer to a complicated system.
But puts another set of people in danger, that’s not acceptable.

Maybe if the cable itself was illuminated so it was highly visible in the dark !
But black cable in a loop on the ground is a no no.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 29, 2022)

You could have a black sign that lights up black with a black background saying “Trip Hazard”

With apologies to HotBlack Desiato 😎


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but by the nature of the installation you can’t avoid a tripping hazard.
If your crossing the road and go between two cars at night the cable is in your path.
You could be hidden by the cars and be there all night with head injuries or a broken pelvis.
I get the need to change the way we do things ,but that is not it imo.
Back to the drawing board I am afraid.
It looks like a cost cutting basic answer to a complicated system.
But puts another set of people in danger, that’s not acceptable.

Maybe if the cable itself was illuminated so it was highly visible in the dark !
But black cable in a loop on the ground is a no no.
		
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You’ll never completely remove the hazard, but secure the cable to the lower part of the column, remove any loops in the run and clip it into a hi-viz cable ramp and even use a hi-viz colour cable and you can minimise it, which may be sufficient to discharge the liabilities in law. 

I don’t disagree that it’s a very poor or not properly thought through design, just where the final liability would lie in the event that something went wrong.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You’ll never completely remove the hazard, but secure the cable to the lower part of the column, remove any loops in the run and clip it into a hi-viz cable ramp and even use a hi-viz colour cable and you can minimise it, which may be sufficient to discharge the liabilities in law.

I don’t disagree that it’s a very poor or not properly thought through design, just where the final liability would lie in the event that something went wrong.
		
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Motorists can’t even park properly so expecting them to do that is not on imo
It’s the  council for me and whoever is charging you money to use the socket.
But the council are responsible for the safety of the pavements.
It’s a totally avoidable risk.
I can also see a lot of vandalism to this sort of thing on public pavements.
No easy answer.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			One fatality is one to many for me.
The state of the NHS and ambulance waiting times we should not be putting tripping hazards on the pavements.
The need to move over I get but safely is a must.
		
Click to expand...

There is zero difference here between this Lampost and the charge points you see everywhere, the one street ones with bays either side

People plug their own cables in and run to their cars

They are exactly the same as this and nobody has batted an eye lid nor are we hearing in the daily mail how everyone is falling over the enemies charge cables

It's a cracking idea along with the pull up ones

Many solutions

The onus is on people to run their cables correctly

But people are always the problem.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			There is zero difference here between this Lampost and the charge points you see everywhere, the one street ones with bays either side

People plug their own cables in and run to their cars

They are exactly the same as this and nobody has batted an eye lid nor are we hearing in the daily mail how everyone is falling over the enemies charge cables

It's a cracking idea along with the pull up ones

Many solutions

The onus is on people to run their cables correctly

But people are always the problem.

View attachment 44985

Click to expand...

Yes I don’t disagree. They are the same.
I just think it’s dangerous.
If those cables were illuminated like rope lights that would help.
It’s going to happen no dought, but safety is obviously on the back burner.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I don’t disagree. They are the same.
I just think it’s dangerous.
If those cables were illuminated like rope lights that would help.
It’s going to happen no dought, but safety is obviously on the back burner.
		
Click to expand...

One would hope under a street light it would be seen, cables being black isn't ideal , some are other colours but make them light up? Doubtful, they cost enough as it is and the lights would attract people to steal them 100% 

Cables already are armoured to be crush proof so that no electrical wires become visable that could kill someone 

A trip hazard seems the lesser of the risks 

One does wonder if walking down that road why would you walk on the part of the pavement with the Lampost .. why not just walk on the massive other bit as you need to avoid the Lampost anyways 

Maybe ballards alone the charge bays so people don't walk there


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 30, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Got to say it looks like a bodge job. You would never install the socket on the removable door!

Also questioning the amount of power you can draw. Normally a lamp post would only have a piddly 6A supply.
		
Click to expand...

Thats what many London councils are doing to adapt the lampost, and the council even attach a sign to the lamp post asking everyone to leave it free overnight for electric car owners to park and charge their car there. Iv'e already seen day time arguements between people during the day because the electric car owner things it's their own parking place for their leccy car.
I fail to see why all the councils residence should pay for the leccy car charging, as it's not metered.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 30, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I don’t disagree. They are the same.
I just think it’s dangerous.
If those cables were illuminated like rope lights that would help.
It’s going to happen no dought, but safety is obviously on the back burner.
		
Click to expand...

They could pipe music and have the rope light pulsating in time. Cue street party  😂

Part of the problem is the length of cable, normally 3m, if you are 1m away from the socket, then you have a coil to deal with.

Rather than having the cable chucked in the boot they need to design some sort of retractable cable that would solve this.

This throws up additional issues as a partially uncoiled cable with juice going through could get a tad warm

You would still need to retain the socket for tethered chargers


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Thats what many London councils are doing to adapt the lampost, and the council even attach a sign to the lamp post asking everyone to leave it free overnight for electric car owners to park and charge their car there. Iv'e already seen day time arguements between people during the day because the electric car owner things it's their own parking place for their leccy car.
I fail to see why all the councils residence should pay for the leccy car charging, as it's not metered.
		
Click to expand...

They don't. They are metered, all via apps which track usage

Charged to the user's account

Just like I've heard of new builds with shared chargers in the car park and every residents has a charge card. Tap it and it's billed to your flat

This is same as me going down to my local podpoint and selecting it on the app, confirming the charge and then once finished it charges my credit card

Few councils provide it free now. It was free for a bit as there was massive tax breaks for the council and electric was cheap 

Now the prices are creeping slowly up


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			One would hope under a street light it would be seen, cables being black isn't ideal , some are other colours but make them light up? Doubtful, they cost enough as it is and the lights would attract people to steal them 100%

Cables already are armoured to be crush proof so that no electrical wires become visable that could kill someone

A trip hazard seems the lesser of the risks

One does wonder if walking down that road why would you walk on the part of the pavement with the Lampost .. why not just walk on the massive other bit as you need to avoid the Lampost anyways

Maybe ballards alone the charge bays so people don't walk there
		
Click to expand...

Yes I get your points.
But we are talking about the general public.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I get your points.
But we are talking about the general public.
		
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Which exactly brings down all inovoation let's be honest

People misusing stuff

I mean my local station had a pump for bikes outside at the bike rack. Some idiot decided to cut it off just because 

Great little thing to help people just ruined by idiots


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which exactly brings down all inovoation let's be honest

People misusing stuff

I mean my local station had a pump for bikes outside at the bike rack. Some idiot decided to cut it off just because

Great little thing to help people just ruined by idiots
		
Click to expand...

Have you seen any of that vandalism on EVs.
Heard a few lads talking about their leads being stolen.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 30, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Have you seen any of that vandalism on EVs.
Heard a few lads talking about their leads being stolen.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't no. But it depends how they work 

When I plug my car in the lead locks by deadbolt and that's it unless you unlock it 

The one on my house can't be stolen as I went for a tethered lead for convenience


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I haven't no. But it depends how they work

When I plug my car in the lead locks by deadbolt and that's it unless you unlock it

The one on my house can't be stolen as I went for a tethered lead for convenience
		
Click to expand...

Right that makes sense to have some sort of lock.


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## JamesR (Nov 2, 2022)

Q for anyone who has a *company* electric car and charges it at home...do you claim the cost of charging at home, or do you just claim mileage?


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## DaveR (Nov 10, 2022)

Interesting viewing for anyone that has to rely on public chargers


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## OnTour (Nov 10, 2022)

News was the chargers LEADS were getting cut for the metals and so on. no heard of anyone having there car broken into for there own charger lead. 

Leased my Zoe 50KW had £365 free credit with vanarama through the incredibly bad BPPULSE, free charging at work 7200 miles in £0.00 spent - cheap so far, just need the car market to revert back to 4-5 years back so I win on selling my wife's car for the trade off.   road trip 2morro on Kendal doesn't have a BPpulse location in the area. Might be the first out of pocket charge in 2022. 




clubchamp98 said:



			Have you seen any of that vandalism on EVs.
Heard a few lads talking about their leads being stolen.
		
Click to expand...


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## road2ruin (Nov 10, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Interesting viewing for anyone that has to rely on public chargers







Click to expand...

I guess the hope would be that the price of electricity has the potential to come back to a much more reasonable rate in the future whereas fuel prices barely move regardless of what the price of oil is.


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## DaveR (Nov 10, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I guess the hope would be that the price of electricity has the potential to come back to a much more reasonable rate in the future whereas fuel prices barely move regardless of what the price of oil is.
		
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Fuel prices move as well depending on supply/demand, not that long ago petrol was £1 per litre.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 10, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Fuel prices move as well depending on supply/demand, not that long ago petrol was £1 per litre.
		
Click to expand...

Until we get our economy back on track and stop crashing the £1 fuel will stay high.

Only once since 2008 was petrol £1 a litre and that was may 2020 when demand was low due to covid.

A lot of the charging cost for home Vs public is vat 20% on public 5% home 

Then again public rapid charging is like ice cars using motorway petrol stations, try to avoid where possible


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## DaveR (Nov 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Until we get our economy back on track and stop crashing the £1 fuel will stay high.

Only once since 2008 was petrol £1 a litre and that was may 2020 when demand was low due to covid.

A lot of the charging cost for home Vs public is vat 20% on public 5% home

Then again public rapid charging is like ice cars using motorway petrol stations, try to avoid where possible
		
Click to expand...

You do realise that some people have no choice and have to use public chargers?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 10, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You do realise that some people have no choice and have to use public chargers?
		
Click to expand...

Indeed but the figures arent black and white. There are other options to the high charge ones. Use a slower charger. Charged at a cheaper rate.

If not if it's above a certain pence then petrol becomes cheaper again. Yet still doing bit for environment.

It's not all about price

Majority of EV users charge at home those who charge public are in the most company lease cars which they get very generous tax breaks

The numbers of private owners who use rapid fast charging only is slim.

I've done 18000 in my car now and all I have spent charging is just under £100.


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## DaveR (Nov 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Indeed but the figures arent black and white. There are other options to the high charge ones. Use a slower charger. Charged at a cheaper rate.

If not if it's above a certain pence then petrol becomes cheaper again. Yet still doing bit for environment.

It's not all about price

Majority of EV users charge at home those who charge public are in the most company lease cars which they get very generous tax breaks

The numbers of private owners who use rapid fast charging only is slim.

I've done 18000 in my car now and all I have spent charging is just under £100.
		
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ you are so blinkered it's not worth debating anything with you 🤦


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## pauljames87 (Nov 10, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Jesus Christ you are so blinkered it's not worth debating anything with you 🤦
		
Click to expand...

if your mind was actually open and willing to listen to all sides of the debate then it would be but you always post negative and report negative on EV.

yes electric has gone up. so has petrol.

my night rate is still 5.5p for another few months then it will rise to 10 or 12p depending which tariff I choose to go onto. which doubles the costs.

yes there are people out there who mainly use rapid charging but thats not everyone. As said. a very small % of EV owners only use rapid charging. for them it will be expensive

however there are many solutions around this being offered. the lampost chargers installed and they are at a cheaper rate

tesco has started charging but thats 28p a kw for a 7kw charger.. so thats a lot cheaper than petrol and actually cheaper than charging off the gov cap (if you dont have an EV charge rate)

you can also pay a subscription to have access to lower charge rates.

tesla has its own charge network which is a lot cheaper for teslas (which is why you see so many of them about)

you need to fully understand the entire picture rather than clickbait headlines. (they even add in the video that this test was to highlight some of the most expensive chargers around and if you  had to use motorway chargers.. not to say this will always happen.)


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## DaveR (Nov 10, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			if your mind was actually open and willing to listen to all sides of the debate then it would be but you always post negative and report negative on EV.

yes electric has gone up. so has petrol.

my night rate is still 5.5p for another few months then it will rise to 10 or 12p depending which tariff I choose to go onto. which doubles the costs.

yes there are people out there who mainly use rapid charging but thats not everyone. As said. a very small % of EV owners only use rapid charging. for them it will be expensive

however there are many solutions around this being offered. the lampost chargers installed and they are at a cheaper rate

tesco has started charging but thats 28p a kw for a 7kw charger.. so thats a lot cheaper than petrol and actually cheaper than charging off the gov cap (if you dont have an EV charge rate)

you can also pay a subscription to have access to lower charge rates.

tesla has its own charge network which is a lot cheaper for teslas (which is why you see so many of them about)

you need to fully understand the entire picture rather than clickbait headlines. (they even add in the video that this test was to highlight some of the most expensive chargers around and if you  had to use motorway chargers.. not to say this will always happen.)
		
Click to expand...

You just don't get it, everything you post is about YOU.

YOU have a cheap night tariff, YOU have access to off road parking, YOU do short journeys so range isn't an issue.

I have said many times that I would like to go EV but the system at present wouldn't suit me. In the last 18 months I have made journeys from the South Coast to S Wales, N Wales twice, Liverpool, Ireland twice (one trip I practically circumnavigated the entire island), east Anglia, Nottingham and the Hebrides. I shudder to think how many hours I would have spent sat charging the car on those journeys if I had a car with a range of 200 miles! And don't respond with 'buy a long range Tesla' because I haven't got in excess of 50k to spend on an EV. In fact don't respond at all because I'm not interested in your one sided views any more and you will be wasting your own time.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 10, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You just don't get it, everything you post is about YOU.

YOU have a cheap night tariff, YOU have access to off road parking, YOU do short journeys so range isn't an issue.

I have said many times that I would like to go EV but the system at present wouldn't suit me. In the last 18 months I have made journeys from the South Coast to S Wales, N Wales twice, Liverpool, Ireland twice (one trip I practically circumnavigated the entire island), east Anglia, Nottingham and the Hebrides. I shudder to think how many hours I would have spent sat charging the car on those journeys if I had a car with a range of 200 miles! And don't respond with 'buy a long range Tesla' because I haven't got in excess of 50k to spend on an EV. In fact don't respond at all because I'm not interested in your one sided views any more and you will be wasting your own time.
		
Click to expand...

Right Dave, Listen and listen well.

It is not all about me. I was using my situation as ONE example. However shall we take over examples? @hovis care to put your many travels distance on EV? or @pool888 what about yourself? so dave cant complain that he thinks my situation is unique.

I know many EV owners personally. not one of them has to use the rapid network. Infact one bought a tesla second hand and he still gets free charging for life on it so he uses the one near his house.

when in the previous replies today have I said buy an EV? I have not at all. They arent suited to everyone. However they are suited to many and make up for much more % of new car purchases now. thats a fact.

my views may in YOUR opinion be one sided however considering I lease an EV and own a diesel car I can fully judge BOTH sides of the situation and owning an EV for coming up to 2 years has convinced me I NEVER want to buy an ICE car again. thats MY situation. Not EVERYONES. (hope the capitals are making it more clear to YOU as you seem incapable of digesting information)

I will purchased a Bigger EV for my family but I will keep the diesel until it dies as YOU rightly point out they are fantastic for longer journeys.. so no use throwing it away use it until its make ecological and financial sense to part with.

I fully appreciate that right now EV does not suit YOU and many others.  however as stated it suits a lot of people. 

feel free to find me the % of people who entirely charge on the expensive rapid charge network and dont have any access to other kinds of charging. will be interesting to read the facts rather than the hyperbolt comments which you come up with then when challenged run away because "cant have a discussion" because you actually havent done basic research.

good evening.


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## DaveR (Nov 11, 2022)




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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:









Click to expand...

whilst he raises some brilliant points, he however does fall into the category of wall-box at home and off street parking so he can only estimate what the impact would be (good or bad, same as I can only do the same) so whilst his video is thought provoking without a follow up from somebody who is the opposite to him and only uses public charging it doesnt give much information at all.

However tax will come. all new chargers have to be able to say how much KW has been through them (ready to be taxed no doubt, so they can see what is EV and what isnt)
cheap night rates will be around for longer than he worries as they are desperate to get as many people on the night usage as possible to keep the grid balanced. thats a fact, even eco 7 is half the price atm than normal electric so just using eco 7 is a huge saving.
he is fully correct if everyone gets one then whats the draw at once, another octopus innovation in octopus intelligent tariff, plug car in after 5pm, select what time you want it ready and it maps a charge, you get your normal cheap hours (6 at 10p) but it will fill it up when the grid has excess so the more of these tariffs about and cars will charge as and when the grid needs (providing the owners get the charge they need at the time they need)

I am still interest to see how many % of EV drivers fall into his 2 cat he gave. Ie charge at home with a drive and wall box, and charge public.. its not 50/50 for sure.. more like 90/10 .. but would like proper figures.

there are many sub cats aswell. those who have the ability to charge at work for example


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You do realise that some people have no choice and have to use public chargers?
		
Click to expand...

If you are changing your car and thinking of an EV, do your research first.
If you cant charge at home and there aren't many chargers near you or at work, don't buy one and then complain about the cost of public charging.
It's not difficult.
Then in 5-10 years time, reassess


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## Smiffy (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you are changing your car and thinking of an EV, do your research first.
If you cant charge at home and there aren't many chargers near you or at work, don't buy one and then complain about the cost of public charging.
It's not difficult.
Then in 5-10 years time, reassess
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on.
It's not bloody hard is it????


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## Smiffy (Nov 11, 2022)

Me in the showroom......
"We're thinking of buying an electric car".
"Have you got a garage, off road parking, or somewhere to have a wallbox fitted without trailing a lead to the car in a dangerous manner?"
"No"
"Goodbye”


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			And don't respond with 'buy a long range Tesla' because I haven't got in *excess of 50k *to spend on an EV.
		
Click to expand...

You can get a second hand Tesla Model 3 with a range of 348 miles (6-7 hours non stop driving) for £37,500 and plenty more under £40k

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...tedTrim=Long Range&include-delivery-option=on


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You can get a second hand Tesla Model 3 with a range of 348 miles (6-7 hours non stop driving) for £37,500 and plenty more under £40k

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ng348xf&radius=1500&make=Tesla&model=Model 3&aggregatedTrim=Long Range&include-delivery-option=on

Click to expand...

MG 5 long range 33k brand new


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## Fade and Die (Nov 11, 2022)

Whenever I read this thread I can’t help thinking of this….


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Whenever I read this thread I can’t help thinking of this….







Click to expand...

50% maybe the other 50% very much


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## chellie (Nov 11, 2022)

Still can't afford one so won't be getting one.


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## Beezerk (Nov 11, 2022)

Any of you guys and gals have ev or plug in hybrid cars as a company vehicle?
If so what’s the situation with charging it at home?


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## hovis (Nov 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Right Dave, Listen and listen well.

It is not all about me. I was using my situation as ONE example. However shall we take over examples? @hovis care to put your many travels distance on EV? or @pool888 what about yourself? so dave cant complain that he thinks my situation is unique.

I know many EV owners personally. not one of them has to use the rapid network. Infact one bought a tesla second hand and he still gets free charging for life on it so he uses the one near his house.

when in the previous replies today have I said buy an EV? I have not at all. They arent suited to everyone. However they are suited to many and make up for much more % of new car purchases now. thats a fact.

my views may in YOUR opinion be one sided however considering I lease an EV and own a diesel car I can fully judge BOTH sides of the situation and owning an EV for coming up to 2 years has convinced me I NEVER want to buy an ICE car again. thats MY situation. Not EVERYONES. (hope the capitals are making it more clear to YOU as you seem incapable of digesting information)

I will purchased a Bigger EV for my family but I will keep the diesel until it dies as YOU rightly point out they are fantastic for longer journeys.. so no use throwing it away use it until its make ecological and financial sense to part with.

I fully appreciate that right now EV does not suit YOU and many others.  however as stated it suits a lot of people.

feel free to find me the % of people who entirely charge on the expensive rapid charge network and dont have any access to other kinds of charging. will be interesting to read the facts rather than the hyperbolt comments which you come up with then when challenged run away because "cant have a discussion" because you actually havent done basic research.

good evening.
		
Click to expand...

I have done over 32k miles in 20 months. I've travelled from the Midlands to Scotland, Wales and Cornwall in that time and just recently returned from a fishing trip in France.  I have charging at home.  Over the 32k miles I have driven I can count on my hands how many times I've "needed" to charge my car on the go as I have a real world range of 280 miles. 
People seen to love the excuse of "waiting and waiting for the car to charge".   On the very rare occasion I have needed to charge my car on a rapid charger I have simply used that time (30 minutes). To take a dump and get some food.   

People just hate change and push against it as much as possible


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## Smiffy (Nov 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			On the very rare occasion I have needed to charge my car on a rapid charger I have simply used that time (30 minutes) to take a dump and get some food.  
People just hate change and push against it as much as possible
		
Click to expand...

I have a lot of pushing to do myself where dumps are concerned these days...
😢😢😢


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## DaveR (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You can get a second hand Tesla Model 3 with a range of 348 miles (6-7 hours non stop driving) for £37,500 and plenty more under £40k

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ng348xf&radius=1500&make=Tesla&model=Model 3&aggregatedTrim=Long Range&include-delivery-option=on

Click to expand...

How many miles on them? Teslas are not known for their reliability.


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## DaveR (Nov 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have done over 32k miles in 20 months. I've travelled from the Midlands to Scotland, Wales and Cornwall in that time and just recently returned from a fishing trip in France.  I have charging at home.  Over the 32k miles I have driven I can count on my hands how many times I've "needed" to charge my car on the go as I have a real world range of 280 miles.
People seen to love the excuse of "waiting and waiting for the car to charge".   On the very rare occasion I have needed to charge my car on a rapid charger I have simply used that time (30 minutes). To take a dump and get some food.  

People just hate change and push against it as much as possible
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, how much was your car new?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 11, 2022)

Nice trip hazard…



Was parked there all day and I saw people walking over the cable constantly.


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			How many miles on them? Teslas are not known for their reliability.
		
Click to expand...

If you clicked on the link, you would see every car and how many miles they have done, I'm not going to do it for you.


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Nice trip hazard…
View attachment 45114


Was parked there all day and I saw people walking over the cable constantly.
		
Click to expand...

So no-one tripped over the hazard ?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So no-one tripped over the hazard ?
		
Click to expand...

Omg it’s like a religion isn’t it Bob? no criticism is permitted no matter how slight!
😆😆😆


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## DaveR (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you clicked on the link, you would see every car and how many miles they have done, I'm not going to do it for you.
		
Click to expand...

Would you spend 40k on a 2nd hand car?

No, I thought not.......especially on a car ranked 30th out of 33 in the latest JD Power survey.


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Would you spend 40k on a 2nd hand car?
		
Click to expand...

You said and I quote




			And don't respond with 'buy a long range Tesla' because I haven't got in *excess of 50k *to spend on an EV.
		
Click to expand...

I sent you a link showing 19 long range Teslas for *UNDER £40k*, proving you don't need to spend in excess of £50k to get a long range Tesla


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Omg it’s like a religion isn’t it Bob? no criticism is permitted no matter how slight!
😆😆😆
		
Click to expand...

I just pointed out that despite the fact the trip hazard had been there all day, no one actually tripped over the trip hazard


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I just pointed out that despite the fact the trip hazard had been there all day, no one actually tripped over the trip hazard
		
Click to expand...

During the day you'd have to be an idiot, or one of those morons that walks along staring at their phone the whole time, to trip over that wire. At night it's a different story, especially if there's another car parked behind the one being charged and you're cutting between them. I fully support the switch to electric cars but I'm not sure that charging from lamp posts is the right answer.


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			During the day you'd have to be an idiot, or one of those morons that walks along staring at their phone the whole time, to trip over that wire. At night it's a different story, especially if there's another car parked behind the one being charged and you're cutting between them. I fully support the switch to electric cars but I'm not sure that charging from lamp posts is the right answer.
		
Click to expand...

I agree 
But looking again at the picture, why did the driver not park next to the lamp post that was charging the car?
Looks suspiciously like a set up to me.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree
But looking again at the picture, why did the driver not park next to the lamp post that was charging the car?
Looks suspiciously like a set up to me.
		
Click to expand...

It was most likely full when he/she arrived 

nothing suspect with the set up it's standard in and around London


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I agree
But looking again at the picture, why did the driver not park next to the lamp post that was charging the car?
Looks suspiciously like a set up to me.
		
Click to expand...

As Paul has said it was probably occupied when they parked there so had no choice but to run the cable to that bay.


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It was most likely full when he/she arrived

nothing suspect with the set up it's standard in and around London
		
Click to expand...

So how did he/she unplug the other car?


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## hovis (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Excellent, how much was your car new?
		
Click to expand...

It's my wife's company car. Even though she works from home 😂.  32k I think.  My pal (who is anti electric) just baught a new golf for 31k 🤷‍♂️


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 11, 2022)

VW and some German company are developing a hyrdogen fuel cell that can do 2k miles on a full fill.
I would suggest it would make anything stop and think before commiting to electric


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## hovis (Nov 11, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			VW and some German company are developing a hyrdogen fuel cell that can do 2k miles on a full fill.
I would suggest it would make anything stop and think before commiting to electric
		
Click to expand...

Cars in china are already boasting 1k range.  By the time and hydrogen comes out it'll be 2k too


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			VW and some German company are developing a hyrdogen fuel cell that can do 2k miles on a full fill.
I would suggest it would make anything stop and think before commiting to electric
		
Click to expand...

Just need to crack nuclear fusion to get an endless supply of electricity to release hydrogen from sea water and it's full steam ahead. That's the main reason that I wouldn't buy an electric car at the minute, apart from the cost and the fact that our two cars are still running well so don't need changing right now, as I think that hydrogen fuel cell technology could be the future. That would make EVs the betamax to the hydrogen cell video recorders.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 11, 2022)

Hyundai have had a hydrogen cell prototype car , the Nexo for a while.

Hydrogen is going to be a chunky part of the answer, mark my words 👍


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just need to crack nuclear fusion to get an endless supply of electricity to release hydrogen from sea water and it's full steam ahead. That's the main reason that I wouldn't buy an electric car at the minute, apart from the cost and the fact that our two cars are still running well so don't need changing right now, as I think that hydrogen fuel cell technology could be the future. That would make EVs the betamax to the hydrogen cell video recorders.
		
Click to expand...

I can see it being used for larger vehicles but if they want to replace BEV cars they've got over a decade of catching up to do.
And if you think EVs are expensive and the infrastructure is rubbish, don't even look at cost of hydrogen.

Of all the hydrogen cars for sale on autotrader, the cheapest is £28,995 and the other one is £49,950.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 11, 2022)

Its a new way of hydrogen fuel cell, and VW have already submitted patent applications for it. Way more enviromentally friendly and cheaper to make, plus the huge range.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I can see it being used for larger vehicles but if they want to replace BEV cars they've got over a decade of catching up to do.
And if you think EVs are expensive and the infrastructure is rubbish, don't even look at cost of hydrogen.

Of all the hydrogen cars for sale on autotrader, the cheapest is £28,995 and the other one is £49,950.
		
Click to expand...

It's already being used for buses in Aberdeen, and I'm sure in other cities but Aberdeen is one that I know of for definite, and I was recently involved in a survey for a project looking at using wind turbines to produce hydrogen during the night when demand for energy drops. As for your argument about cost, aren't these the same arguments that were being used about EV very recently and are in fact still being used?


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's already being used for buses in Aberdeen, and I'm sure in other cities but Aberdeen is one that I know of for definite, and I was recently involved in a survey for a project looking at using wind turbines to produce hydrogen during the night when demand for energy drops. As for your argument about cost, aren't these the same arguments that were being used about EV very recently and are in fact still being used?
		
Click to expand...

I know the cost is an issue but as I said, hydrogen are just too far behind with charging and the cost of the cars.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 11, 2022)

If you can’t afford a battery powered electric car. You certainly won’t be able to afford a hydrogen powered electric car.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I know the cost is an issue but as I said, hydrogen are just too far behind with charging and the cost of the cars.
		
Click to expand...

Why is replacing one form of vehicle motion that damages the enviroment with another that damages the enviroment so good?


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## bobmac (Nov 11, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why is replacing one form of vehicle motion that damages the enviroment with another that damages the enviroment so good?
		
Click to expand...

So you think ICE cars and EVs cars damage the environment equally?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So how did he/she unplug the other car?
		
Click to expand...

the car could easily have not been plugged in and some lamposts have more than one charger on the side . if the space was charging and they waited then plug themsleves in the driver is lazy for not moving his car.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why is replacing one form of vehicle motion that damages the enviroment with another that damages the enviroment so good?
		
Click to expand...

hydrogen is equally as damaging to the environment as EV. how is it produced? is it the key green hydrogen? as we struggle as it is to make the grid green then the hydrogen would be blue (I believe the term is) which is burning gas etc to make it so is equally as damaging as an EV. 

the question is in the battery tech but whilst hydrogen is being made dont ignore advances in battery tech that is moving away from some of the things people keep complaining about.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-new-batteries-that-will-make-you-an-electric-car-believer/

its not EV or hydrogen its EV AND hydrogen. Both will play a key part in our switch away from oil in terms of transport.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			If you can’t afford a battery powered electric car. You certainly won’t be able to afford a hydrogen powered electric car.
		
Click to expand...

plus if people think the EV charge network is shocking (pardon the pun) then wait until you see the hydrogen charge network, 

https://fueloilnews.co.uk/2022/10/s...ons to 'focus,the fuelling of larger vehicles.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I know the cost is an issue but as I said, hydrogen are just too far behind with charging and the cost of the cars.
		
Click to expand...




BiMGuy said:



			If you can’t afford a battery powered electric car. You certainly won’t be able to afford a hydrogen powered electric car.
		
Click to expand...

But these are the arguments being used against EVs. You can't defend EVs against these very same complaints and then use them to dismiss hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. 

EVs are much more expensive than ICE vehicles. Hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) cars are much more expensive than EVs.
The infrastructure for EVs is much worse than for ICEs. The infrastructure for HFC is much worse than for EVs.
The technology for EVs is behind ICEs. The technology for HFC is behind EVs. 

EVs are far behind ICEs in terms of refuelling and cost but that doesn't mean that they won't overtake them at some point. In the same way that HFCs are far behind EVs in terms of refuelling and cost.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



*hydrogen is equally as damaging to the environment as EV.* how is it produced? is it the key green hydrogen? as we struggle as it is to make the grid green then the hydrogen would be blue (I believe the term is) which is burning gas etc to make it so is equally as damaging as an EV.

the question is in the battery tech but whilst hydrogen is being made dont ignore advances in battery tech that is moving away from some of the things people keep complaining about.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-new-batteries-that-will-make-you-an-electric-car-believer/

its not EV or hydrogen its EV AND hydrogen. Both will play a key part in our switch away from oil in terms of transport.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on how the hydrogen is produced. If it's using energy from wind turbines at night, that would otherwise go to waste, then it's far less damaging than if it was produced by burning gas.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends on how the hydrogen is produced. If it's using energy from wind turbines at night, that would otherwise go to waste, then it's far less damaging than if it was produced by burning gas.
		
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what I said no? Lol 🤣 green hydrogen is key , however much like switching to EV it's better to get everyone to hydrogen and ev sooner then focus on getting the grid green than not


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## DaveR (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You said and I quote



I sent you a link showing 19 long range Teslas for *UNDER £40k*, proving you don't need to spend in excess of £50k to get a long range Tesla
		
Click to expand...

I was obviously referring to new car prices but you be as pedantic as you want 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I was obviously referring to new car prices but you be as pedantic as you want 👍
		
Click to expand...

https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg5-ev


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 11, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So you think ICE cars and EVs cars damage the environment equally?
		
Click to expand...

Its not how big is there willy, but the fact you are looking to replace one enviromental damage source with another.It's the life cycle of the fuel and everything associated with it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Its not how big is there willy, but the fact you are looking to replace one enviromental damage source with another.It's the life cycle of the fuel and everything associated with it.
		
Click to expand...

Ev is far far less damaging to the environment than a normal car

Mining lithium is not as bad for the environment as mining oil for example

And even if you filled up your EV with electric from gas it's far better for the environment burning gas at a power station than burning it yourself in a car , that's scientifically proven

Article about the myth of EV are just as polluting as Ice cars
https://electrek.co/2021/07/21/study-dispels-myth-electric-cars-pollute-gas-powered-cars/

Break even points emission wise based on break downs of what goes into them 

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/


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## Ian_George (Nov 11, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hyundai have had a hydrogen cell prototype car , the Nexo for a while.

Hydrogen is going to be a chunky part of the answer, mark my words 👍
		
Click to expand...

In 'proof of concept' perhaps. But lots of issues (like cost and actually generating MORE greenhouse gas in the production process!) to overcome before competing with EV is possible!


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I was obviously referring to new car prices but you be as pedantic as you want 👍
		
Click to expand...

If you were only interested in new cars, why did you ask about the mileage of the second hand Teslas in the link I provided in post no. 2875 that you didn't look at.?


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## DaveR (Nov 12, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you were only interested in new cars, why did you ask about the mileage of the second hand Teslas in the link I provided in post no. 2875 that you didn't look at.?
		
Click to expand...

Because I looked on autotrader myself to see if there was anything I would consider but the prices aren't viable.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Because I looked on autotrader myself to see if there was anything I would consider but the prices aren't viable.
		
Click to expand...

So you looked on Autotrader yourself but didn't look at the mileage?

I've said all along, if an EV today doesn't suit your needs, don't buy one.
Maybe have another look in 5 years time and see how they have changed.
And if you really don't want an EV, buy a new ICE car in 2029 and drive it for 20 years



ColchesterFC said:



			But these are the arguments being used against EVs. You can't defend EVs against these very same complaints and then use them to dismiss hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not.
Of course the prices will fall but so will EV prices.


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## DaveR (Nov 12, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So you looked on Autotrader yourself but didn't look at the mileage?

I've said all along, if an EV today doesn't suit your needs, don't buy one.
Maybe have another look in 5 years time and see how they have changed.
And if you really don't want an EV, buy a new ICE car in 2029 and drive it for 20 years



I'm not.
Of course the prices will fall but so will EV prices.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent consumer advice Bob, I never thought of that.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Excellent consumer advice Bob, I never thought of that.
		
Click to expand...

Well judging by the arguments you have against EVs which are about 5 years out of date, maybe you need some up to date info.


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## DaveR (Nov 12, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Well judging by the arguments you have against EVs which are about 5 years out of date, maybe you need some up to date info.
		
Click to expand...

My arguments are range and price, not much has changed in the last 5 years. Average quoted range is still around 250 miles (probably less than 200 on the motorway) and I'd guess prices around 35k upwards for anything other than a very basic car. So what am I missing?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2022)

The problem that we will start to see in the not too distant future is firstly petrol stations will reduce the number of pumps serving diesel as demand drops, and then after a few more years as ICE cars get phased out, there will be far fewer petrol stations full stop.

So like now with an EV you need to plan your recharge point, you may need to do the same in 15 years to buy your unleaded


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2022)

DaveR said:



			My arguments are range and price, not much has changed in the last 5 years. Average quoted range is still around 250 miles (probably less than 200 on the motorway) and I'd guess prices around 35k upwards for anything other than a very basic car. So what am I missing?
		
Click to expand...

5 years ago the new Nissan Leaf was released with a quoted range of 168 miles. The entry level was over £26,000. Top spec Tekna was £33,600.
The new long range MG 4 has a range of 281 miles and costs £28,995


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## DaveR (Nov 12, 2022)

Go o


bobmac said:



			5 years ago the new Nissan Leaf was released with a quoted range of 168 miles. The entry level was over £26,000. Top spec Tekna was £33,600.
The new long range MG 4 has a range of 281 miles and costs £28,995
		
Click to expand...

Go to the MG website configurator, select MG4, select motorway as driving style then look how the range changes from 281 miles to 160.


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2022)

Road tax for electric cars in Hunt's budget this week?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

fundy said:



			Road tax for electric cars in Hunt's budget this week?
		
Click to expand...

Imo a good decision, will have to get the balance right ofc no doubt it will be lower 

Then again if you lease it doesn't affect you .. the lease company pay it


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Imo a good decision, will have to get the balance right ofc no doubt it will be lower

Then again if you lease it doesn't affect you .. the lease company pay it
		
Click to expand...

The following step you would think would be to change the BIK on company electric cars.....


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

fundy said:



			The following step you would think would be to change the BIK on company electric cars.....
		
Click to expand...

I am unsure as they need people to switch , this company car bit gets people in. Quite a few take it even though they never would hVe considered an EV they go for it because of this break 

Needs to be carefully thought through


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I am unsure as they need people to switch , this company car bit gets people in. Quite a few take it even though they never would hVe considered an EV they go for it because of this break

*Needs to be carefully thought through*

Click to expand...

and there lies the problem lol


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Imo a good decision, will have to get the balance right ofc no doubt it will be lower 

Then again if you lease it doesn't affect you .. the lease company pay it
		
Click to expand...

It does get added into the lease though, you still end up paying.


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## Pants (Nov 12, 2022)

Beat me to it LT.  Some people are so gullible


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It does get added into the lease though, you still end up paying.
		
Click to expand...

Quiet, but wouldn't affect current lease deals as they are signed and agreed, the companies would have to front the difference

Going forward they will add it into the cost but what with the cost of the cars, the cost of interest both rising it will bearly be noticeable in real terms.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ev is far far less damaging to the environment than a normal car

Mining lithium is not as bad for the environment as mining oil for example

And even if you filled up your EV with electric from gas it's far better for the environment burning gas at a power station than burning it yourself in a car , that's scientifically proven

Article about the myth of EV are just as polluting as Ice cars
https://electrek.co/2021/07/21/study-dispels-myth-electric-cars-pollute-gas-powered-cars/

Break even points emission wise based on break downs of what goes into them

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

Click to expand...

Why are you comparing an EV to petrol or diesel when they arent going to be sold new in 8 years time?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why are you comparing an EV to petrol or diesel when they arent going to be sold new in 8 years time?
		
Click to expand...

Ok then compare them to hydrogen. Equally as harmful to the environment as EV are.

Both require rare materials 

Both require electric to make the "fuel"

Both give off zero emissions


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ok then compare them to hydrogen. Equally as harmful to the environment as EV are.

*Both require rare materials*

Both require electric to make the "fuel"

Both give off zero emissions
		
Click to expand...

The new Fuel cell being developed by VW and the other German company dont....


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## Jason.H (Nov 12, 2022)

Been sitting on the fence with regards EV,s. Decided to have a test drive in a Cupra Born V2 and was quite impressed tbh. I could quite easily live with it with a charge point at home.  At around 43k for the spec I’d like and I,d gues it would lose 50% of it’s value over 3 years. So whilst saving money at the pump but then losing big time on depreciation.  Where as my VW Transporter will likely hold its value or even creep up Some more.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The new Fuel cell being developed by VW and the other German company dont....
		
Click to expand...

Watch how long it takes to bring to the market 

The solid state battery has been in development for ages as has the cell


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## Pants (Nov 12, 2022)

In answer to the OP, no, I won’t – at least not in the foreseeable future.  It doesn’t make any financial or ecological sense at all to change.

Currently I’m spending less than £1,000 on diesel a year and expect this to fall as I’ll probably drive less over the coming years.  Currently (excuse the pun) running an EV would probably cost me (say) £3/400 pa in electricity but the cost of electricity is/will escalate.  The govt will need to start punitive taxation of EV users fairly soon so we can forget about the “Road Fund Licence” differences.  So, effectively, buying a cheapish EV at (say) £36,000, it would take me at least 60 years to benefit from the fuel savings.

The ecological damage from the manufacture of my car happened 5 years ago.  Apart from the burning of the diesel, it’s carbon footprint has already happened and is “in the system”.  If I buy a new car, the carbon footprint will be enormous by comparison - from the mining and extraction of materials, the use of oil for plastics, the energy in making the thing, the fuel costs in getting the vehicle or parts to this country.  And then there’s the carbon footprint costs in producing the electricity to run the thing.

I can see the advantages for those who currently enjoy vastly reduced BIK but they are not really doing it to help the planet, are they?  And for those who lease and have a new car every 3 years or so - why??  Modern cars are good for 10/15/20 years or so.  Bit like golf clubs I suppose, got to have new shineys every so often.

I’m sure that my logic is flawed somewhere and the EV proponents will be along to put me right ...


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Watch how long it takes to bring to the market

The solid state battery has been in development for ages as has the cell
		
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The patent has already been applied for. I don't think VW are going to be sitting back do you?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The patent has already been applied for. I don't think VW are going to be sitting back do you?
		
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Not all patented tech makes it to market .. 

You speak like it's going to be on sale next year. 

Let's see if it's on the UK market in 5 years


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 12, 2022)

Pants said:



			In answer to the OP, no, I won’t – at least not in the foreseeable future.  It doesn’t make any financial or ecological sense at all to change.

Currently I’m spending less than £1,000 on diesel a year and expect this to fall as I’ll probably drive less over the coming years.  Currently (excuse the pun) running an EV would probably cost me (say) £3/400 pa in electricity but the cost of electricity is/will escalate.  The govt will need to start punitive taxation of EV users fairly soon so we can forget about the “Road Fund Licence” differences.  So, effectively, buying a cheapish EV at (say) £36,000, it would take me at least 60 years to benefit from the fuel savings.

The ecological damage from the manufacture of my car happened 5 years ago.  Apart from the burning of the diesel, it’s carbon footprint has already happened and is “in the system”.  If I buy a new car, the carbon footprint will be enormous by comparison - from the mining and extraction of materials, the use of oil for plastics, the energy in making the thing, the fuel costs in getting the vehicle or parts to this country.  And then there’s the carbon footprint costs in producing the electricity to run the thing.

I can see the advantages for those who currently enjoy vastly reduced BIK but they are not really doing it to help the planet, are they?  And for those who lease and have a new car every 3 years or so - why??  Modern cars are good for 10/15/20 years or so.  Bit like golf clubs I suppose, got to have new shineys every so often.

I’m sure that my logic is flawed somewhere and the EV proponents will be along to put me right ...
		
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Logic sounds pretty good to me.
It’s a major question people are asking themselves.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 12, 2022)

A lot of company cars go back after a certain mileage or after 2 or 3 years.

Also, if people didn’t buy new cars every few years. There would be no decent second hand cars to buy.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 12, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			A lot of company cars go back after a certain mileage or after 2 or 3 years.

Also, if people didn’t buy new cars every few years. There would be no decent second hand cars to buy.
		
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And a lot of unemployed car workers.


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## Imurg (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Not all patented tech makes it to market ..

You speak like it's going to be on sale next year.

Let's see if it's on the UK market in 5 years
		
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You do realise that you could have said those words a few years back in the ICE/EV debate.......


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			You do realise that you could have said those words a few years back in the ICE/EV debate.......
		
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Well maybe indeed but it's a moot point if it's come to the market 

There is an EV battery boasting 500 mile range 10 min charge but until it's here it's a pipe dream

Hydrogen is key to switching from ice cars as are EV


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## BiMGuy (Nov 12, 2022)

Imurg said:



			You do realise that you could have said those words a few years back in the ICE/EV debate.......
		
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Or in the cars v horses debate. Which I’m sure some of the more senior members will remember 😂


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## Slime (Nov 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Not all patented tech makes it to market ..

You speak like it's going to be on sale next year.

Let's see if it's on the UK market in 5 years
		
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2026 is what they're saying, and with a range of 2,000 kilometers.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 12, 2022)

Slime said:



			2026 is what they're saying, and with a range of 2,000 kilometers.
		
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Now that would be a game changer and remove one of the main negatives about changing to EV. Obviously that would need to be real world range rather than just manufacturer claimed mileage. And with VW involved I'm not sure that they can be trusted to be 100% honest about these things. I guess it then just comes down to the price of the vehicle.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

Slime said:



			2026 is what they're saying, and with a range of 2,000 kilometers.
		
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Indeed they are. 10,000 cars initially apparently. So let's hope by 2030 it becomes an affordable alternative..  because as it stands hydrogen cars are even more than EVs which are always quoted as too expensive.

I'd love to see a hydrogen car that's decent price. Hell sod the 1000 mile range just make it like a car.. 500 miles minimum with refueling stations everywhere.. 

EVs have dropped dramatically in price, can now get them under 30k which a few years ago was impossible

Ranges creeping up but when you add hydrogen to the mix .. really will help cover everyone's needs

This shouldn't be ev Vs hydrogen as both are key to getting us away from petrol and diesel cars


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## PNWokingham (Nov 12, 2022)

Pants said:



			In answer to the OP, no, I won’t – at least not in the foreseeable future.  It doesn’t make any financial or ecological sense at all to change.

Currently I’m spending less than £1,000 on diesel a year and expect this to fall as I’ll probably drive less over the coming years.  Currently (excuse the pun) running an EV would probably cost me (say) £3/400 pa in electricity but the cost of electricity is/will escalate.  The govt will need to start punitive taxation of EV users fairly soon so we can forget about the “Road Fund Licence” differences.  So, effectively, buying a cheapish EV at (say) £36,000, it would take me at least 60 years to benefit from the fuel savings.

The ecological damage from the manufacture of my car happened 5 years ago.  Apart from the burning of the diesel, it’s carbon footprint has already happened and is “in the system”.  If I buy a new car, the carbon footprint will be enormous by comparison - from the mining and extraction of materials, the use of oil for plastics, the energy in making the thing, the fuel costs in getting the vehicle or parts to this country.  And then there’s the carbon footprint costs in producing the electricity to run the thing.

I can see the advantages for those who currently enjoy vastly reduced BIK but they are not really doing it to help the planet, are they?  And for those who lease and have a new car every 3 years or so - why??  Modern cars are good for 10/15/20 years or so.  Bit like golf clubs I suppose, got to have new shineys every so often.

I’m sure that my logic is flawed somewhere and the EV proponents will be along to put me right ...
		
Click to expand...

Great post


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## DaveR (Nov 12, 2022)

Charging times.....always quoted as 10 to 80%  Great, so if you have a car that does 200 miles at motorway speeds each 10% that you lose equates to 20 miles. Charging from 10 to 80% means that your actual range is only 140 miles. Not very convenient if driving from London to Glasgow.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 12, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Charging times.....always quoted as 10 to 80%  Great, so if you have a car that does 200 miles at motorway speeds each 10% that you lose equates to 20 miles. Charging from 10 to 80% means that your actual range is only 140 miles. Not very convenient if driving from London to Glasgow.
		
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charging are quoted as 10-80% because of the science of batteries and how they accept charge.

how often do you drive london the glasgow? how often should you stop to maintain safe driving? rather than pushing it and risking an accident? (we all do it) 

batteries can only accept the speed put into them until a certain level, once you reach 90% I believe it is the charge speed levels right off and becomes as slow as being plugged into a 7kw , thats why its 20-80% is usually the figure quoted 

also charge is limited by the onboard charger as well as the charger your using

for example (yes using mine again, sorry) mine is 7kw AC charge limit, so if I plug into a 22kw charger thats AC it will only take 7kw an hour, same with DC im limited to 100KW so if I use those 150-200kw charger doesnt matter will just take 100kw max... but can only use 100kw to roughly 80% then drops to say 50kw to 90% then drops off again due to the chemistry of the battery.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 12, 2022)

As a regular deliverer of electric cars and user of the rapid charging network, I can confirm that most electric cars will charge to 80% pretty quickly ( 35-45 minutes) but the last 20% can take as long again.


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2022)

If you have young children or grand children, and they are queuing up at the ice cream van, would you rather the van be diesel or electric? I know what I'd prefer.

And if they stopped mining cobalt and lithium today, where will your next mobile phone come from or your power tools or your laptop/ipad, electric golf trolley/buggy, mobility scooter etc and as cobalt is used to refine crude oil and remove sulphur when you produce petrol and diesel how are you going to power your ICE car?

Doesn't it make more sense to continue improving the battery chemistry to move away from using rare earth materials so all appliances can benefit from longer lasting, faster charging batteries.
Imagine your iphone battery that lasts a week rather than a day or a golf trolley that will do 6-7 rounds without charging.

Faster charging and longer lasting batteries are coming, but these things take time. We just need to be patient and as renewable energy continues to grow and our reliance on foreign oil reduces, things are looking good.
Glass half full here


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## Imurg (Nov 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you have young children or grand children, and they are queuing up at the ice cream van, would you rather the van be diesel or electric? I know what I'd prefer.

And if they stopped mining cobalt and lithium today, where will your next mobile phone come from or your power tools or your laptop/ipad, electric golf trolley/buggy, mobility scooter etc and as cobalt is used to refine crude oil and remove sulphur when you produce petrol and diesel how are you going to power your ICE car?

Doesn't it make more sense to continue improving the battery chemistry to move away from using rare earth materials so all appliances can benefit from longer lasting, faster charging batteries.
Imagine your iphone battery that lasts a week rather than a day or a golf trolley that will do 6-7 rounds without charging.

Faster charging and longer lasting batteries are coming, but these things take time. We just need to be patient and as renewable energy continues to grow and our reliance on foreign oil reduces, things are looking good.
Glass half full here 

Click to expand...

Agreed
But until they come....we still need oil otherwise civilisation grinds to a halt.
And if that means granting new licences to extract until the new tech arrives then we have to live with it.


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## Jason.H (Nov 13, 2022)

At what point does the batteries in EV,s start to deteriorate? And how much is the cost to replace them? Is there any long term Tesla owners on here who can comment. I understand the vast majority will just change car after 3 years or so but at some point the 2nd hand market will be flooded with EV,s and it would be good to know the batterries perform as they should.


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2022)

EVs today normally come with an 8 year/100,000 mile guarantee on their batteries


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## hovis (Nov 13, 2022)

When people talk about the negative of environmental impact to support their anti eV mindset they fail to include the benefits of walking through the town breathing fresh air.  What's going to kill you sooner?  A mine that you live a long way from or the lung cancer from breathing in the deisel fumes 🤷‍♂️


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2022)

hovis said:



			When people talk about the negative of environmental impact to support their anti eV mindset they fail to include the benefits of walking through the town breathing fresh air.  What's going to kill you sooner?  A mine that you live a long way from or the lung cancer from breathing in the deisel fumes 🤷‍♂️
		
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So even though you know there are mines in the DRC using children as young as 6 to extract Cobalt, it’s a long way from where you live so it doesn’t matter! What a disgraceful post. You really should delete it.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 13, 2022)

hovis said:



			When people talk about the negative of environmental impact to support their anti eV mindset they fail to include the benefits of walking through the town breathing fresh air.  What's going to kill you sooner?  A mine that you live a long way from or the lung cancer from breathing in the deisel fumes 🤷‍♂️
		
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That’s quite a shocking statement.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 13, 2022)

hovis said:



			When people talk about the negative of environmental impact to support their anti eV mindset they fail to include the benefits of walking through the town breathing fresh air.  What's going to kill you sooner?  A mine that you live a long way from or the lung cancer from breathing in the deisel fumes 🤷‍♂️
		
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Who walks through town centres these days? and unless I'm mistaken, the huge mayority of diesel fumes will be from public transport older buses.


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## hovis (Nov 13, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			So even though you know there are mines in the DRC using children as young as 6 to extract Cobalt, it’s a long way from where you live so it doesn’t matter! What a disgraceful post. You really should delete it.
		
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Hang on, hang on!!! We're talking about the environmental issues. When did I say any of the above was OK? You've just crowbared human rights into the argument. You have literally shot off in your own direction there and I suggest you read my post again. This hasn't been mentioned here and is a different argument completely.  The environmental impact is the same regardless of the levels of ppe and age of workers.

My post was a simple statement of how evs also bring advantages to our health.  ill health through poor working conditions is another argument entirely


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## hovis (Nov 13, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s quite a shocking statement.
		
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Oh well. I'm sure you'll get over it


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## Slime (Nov 13, 2022)

If we really want to solve our global environmental issues, there is only one real solution .......................... but that's probably for a different thread as it is more than a tad controversial.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2022)

EVs aren't just about cars , they have a wider place in the modern world

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...oted-by-ovo-energy/v2g-and-future-ev-charging

Great if you can manage this , saves a fortune and balances the grid (also eliminates powercuts if you can just plug in your battery to power the house whilst the grid is out)

Tesla have this tech already on some models just not commissioned in the UK yet I believe


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## DaveR (Nov 13, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			At what point does the batteries in EV,s start to deteriorate? And how much is the cost to replace them? Is there any long term Tesla owners on here who can comment. I understand the vast majority will just change car after 3 years or so but at some point the 2nd hand market will be flooded with EV,s and it would be good to know the batterries perform as they should.
		
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Have a look on the autotrader channel on YouTube. Rory Reid bought an old Nissan Leaf specifically to test the batteries. Quite an interesting watch 👍


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## Jason.H (Nov 13, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Have a look on the autotrader channel on YouTube. Rory Reid bought an old Nissan Leaf specifically to test the batteries. Quite an interesting watch 👍
		
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Thanks. Will have a look 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 13, 2022)

Slime said:



			If we really want to solve our global environmental issues, there is only one real solution .......................... but that's probably for a different thread as it is more than a tad controversial.
		
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Not just me then...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

just watched this video about EV chargers you can have installed on your house that charge other people to charge their EVs with.

another simple idea that wont be huge but will play a part to growing the network. 

Person in this video doesnt have an EV but has set up a charge point that people can pay a fee to use

wont make massive waves but every little idea helps and with the payment system the cost of the bill to the person whos house it is will cover their costs

not everyones cup of tea but a nice idea.


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## DaveR (Nov 17, 2022)

As predicted EVs will be subject to road tax from April 2025, no big surprise there I guess. Not seen any details yet about how much though. I'd expect lowest bracket which is currently £35???? pounds a year.


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## Smiffy (Nov 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'd expect lowest bracket which is currently £35???? pounds a year.
		
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I wouldn't have thought so.
It predict a new tax class will be introduced and it will be £150.00 or thereabouts.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			As predicted EVs will be subject to road tax from April 2025, no big surprise there I guess. Not seen any details yet about how much though. I'd expect lowest bracket which is currently £35???? pounds a year.
		
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Only surprise is the wait, given the size of the financial hole we are in.


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## fundy (Nov 17, 2022)

Lets be honest, this is only a starter for 10, setting the wheels in motion. VED is going to have to be completely restructured across all vehicles if they want to have the same revenue from it going forward


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Only surprise is the wait, given the size of the financial hole we are in.
		
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I'm shocked it wasn't from 2023 considering what you said.

Part of me wonders if 2025 is a key date for something.. EV are congestion charge except only until 2025


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## SteveW86 (Nov 17, 2022)

I'll be using my bike to ride to work, then I wont have to pay anything


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## Neilds (Nov 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			As predicted EVs will be subject to road tax from April 2025, no big surprise there I guess. Not seen any details yet about how much though. I'd expect lowest bracket which is currently £35???? pounds a year.
		
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My 2014 dirty diesel Focus is £20 a year - go figure!


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## PNWokingham (Nov 17, 2022)

fundy said:



			Lets be honest, this is only a starter for 10, setting the wheels in motion. VED is going to have to be completely restructured across all vehicles if they want to have the same revenue from it going forward
		
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Definitely this. This is a tax and will revert to being so for road useage and less about emissions


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## Pants (Nov 17, 2022)

Post from last Saturday...

"Currently I’m spending less than £1,000 on diesel a year and expect this to fall as I’ll probably drive less over the coming years. Currently (excuse the pun) running an EV would probably cost me (say) £3/400 pa in electricity but the cost of electricity is/will escalate. *The govt will need to start punitive taxation of EV users fairly soon so we can forget about the “Road Fund Licence” differences.* So, effectively, buying a cheapish EV at (say) £36,000, it would take me at least 60 years to benefit from the fuel savings."

Football Pools numbers a speciality.  Contact Horace Batchelor, K E Y N S H A M, Bristol


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## bobmac (Nov 17, 2022)

I wonder if the amount paid will be based on battery size?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I wonder if the amount paid will be based on battery size?
		
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I doubt it, all new chargers installed must have the ability to see how much usage is going through them , I can see a charge based on how much KW you use for the car


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

DaveR said:



			As predicted EVs will be subject to road tax from April 2025, no big surprise there I guess. Not seen any details yet about how much though. I'd expect lowest bracket which is currently £35???? pounds a year.
		
Click to expand...





Wonder if it will force the price of EVs down a bit as people might be out off of the 40k price tag if paying £500 a year in tax


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## hovis (Nov 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 45231


Wonder if it will force the price of EVs down a bit as people might be out off of the 40k price tag if paying £500 a year in tax
		
Click to expand...

So, if I've read that's correctly?  You buy an electric car that produces zero carbon emissions and pay £165 road tax.  Or you have a relatively modern diesel and pay £30?   Good incentive for folk.  With the uncertainty of electric prices I feel they might struggle to get the masses to convert


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## road2ruin (Nov 17, 2022)

Interesting that the planned 23% fuel duty rate increase in late-March 2023 wasn’t mentioned in the speech. This is likely to add 10-12p per litre to fuel!!


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## hovis (Nov 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting that the planned 23% fuel duty rate increase in late-March 2023 wasn’t mentioned in the speech. This is likely to add 10-12p per litre to fuel!!
		
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It's just never ending.   Tax us more on the fuel then windfall tax the company on their profits 😂


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			So, if I've read that's correctly?  You buy an electric car that produces zero carbon emissions and pay £165 road tax.  Or you have a relatively modern diesel and pay £30?   Good incentive for folk.  With the uncertainty of electric prices I feel they might struggle to get the masses to convert
		
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thats how I read it.. however its always CURRENT rates.. whats the betting they rise?

at present my next EV would £10 more tax than the big car aha


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## hovis (Nov 17, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			thats how I read it.. however its always CURRENT rates.. whats the betting they rise?

at present my next EV would £10 more tax than the big car aha
		
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I know. It just doesn't make sense.  Surely if they are taxing ev's at that rate it means emissions is no longer a requirement for cheap tax.   But a diesel driver gets an incentive 🤷‍♂️.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I know. It just doesn't make sense.  Surely if they are taxing ev's at that rate it means emissions is no longer a requirement for cheap tax.   But a diesel driver gets an incentive 🤷‍♂️.
		
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Let's be honest without going down the banned subject this lot won't be in power by 2025, the world could be different finances wise so all these moves can be adjusted by other powers down the line


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I know. It just doesn't make sense.  Surely if they are taxing ev's at that rate it means emissions is no longer a requirement for cheap tax.   But a diesel driver gets an incentive 🤷‍♂️.
		
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Emissions cannot be the controlling aspect now, and there isn't really any incentive to run an older diesel even if it rated at £30, simply because the drive for ULEZ zones makes them uneconomical to own and run.


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## hovis (Nov 17, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Emissions cannot be the controlling aspect now, and there isn't really any incentive to run an older diesel even if it rated at £30, simply because the drive for ULEZ zones makes them uneconomical to own and run.
		
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I agree.  That's why it's weird that the low tax for diesel cars for example isn't being hiked up too


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## Pants (Nov 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I agree.  That's why it's weird that the low tax for diesel cars for example isn't being hiked up too
		
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Sshhh. Keep your voice down.  I want to keep my cheap to run oil burner for a good few years yet


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I agree.  That's why it's weird that the low tax for diesel cars for example isn't being hiked up too
		
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It's just for older ones though, the lower tax. I had a 9yr old diesel, £30 tax. Just replaced it with a 6yr old diesel, lower emissions, £135 tax. Something to do with a cut off of when emissions became a factor. If it wasn't an issue then, should you be penalised now? I'm not saying I agree, I don't, but I think that is why.

Tax used to be fairly universal, then it became emissions based. I guess it's going back towards universality again, although likely graded still. Not a bad thing imo.


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## Smiffy (Nov 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's just for older ones though, the lower tax. I had a 9yr old diesel, £30 tax. *Just replaced it with a 6yr old diesel, lower emissions, £135 tax.*

Click to expand...

You sure it's not £165.00 rather than £135.00.
Came in from 1st April 2017.
All new cars went up to £165.00 apart from the zero emission jobbies, or ones that were massively high anyway.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 18, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			You sure it's not £165.00 rather than £135.00.
Came in from 1st April 2017.
All new cars went up to £165.00 apart from the zero emission jobbies, or ones that were massively high anyway.
		
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I've just double checked, I assumed you were right, but it was 135. It's a 2016 Mazda 6 diesel tourer, auto. I paid it at the end of this October via the dvla website 🤷‍♂️. I'll keep quiet about it in case it slipped through the net 😄


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've just double checked, I assumed you were right, but it was 135. It's a 2016 Mazda 6 diesel tourer, auto. I paid it at the end of this October via the dvla website 🤷‍♂️. I'll keep quiet about it in case it slipped through the net 😄
		
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2016 is the key no? 2017 these new rules came in 

My diesel is £155 the Alhambra, if it was slightly newer would have been 165


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## bobmac (Nov 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			2016 is the key no? 2017 these new rules came in
		
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Spot on.
2017 is £165


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## BiMGuy (Nov 18, 2022)

I’m often bemused at the importance people put on RFL. In the grand scheme of the running cost of a car it’s tiny.


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## srixon 1 (Nov 18, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Nice trip hazard…
View attachment 45114


Was parked there all day and I saw people walking over the cable constantly.
		
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I see this and think that some wise ass will walk by and unplug it because they think it’s funny. Driver returns with somewhere important to go and the batteries do not have enough charge to get there. Or, thieves will be nicking the cables to sell on for scrap.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2022)

srixon 1 said:



			I see this and think that some wise ass will walk by and unplug it because they think it’s funny. Driver returns with somewhere important to go and the batteries do not have enough charge to get there. Or, thieves will be nicking the cables to sell on for scrap.
		
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The cable locks in both ends whilst charging


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I’m often bemused at the importance people put on RFL. In the grand scheme of the running cost of a car it’s tiny.
		
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The break even point aswell for various things .. ie some use for petrol Vs diesel .. electric Vs petrol 

Return on investment in solar 

No1 ever asks oh that new kitchen when will you break even 

How many people just change cars because? Could keep a lot longer .. I just go EV for the fact I wanted to lower my footprint and tbh I want to stick with it now because I prefer the driving experience

Whenever I return to the diesel I miss the instant power and the smooth ride 

Plus having to leave my driveway to fill up? Sod that lol 🤣


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## pool888 (Nov 18, 2022)

Because some people get enjoyment from their kitchen and feel it improves their quality of life and are happy to pay for that. I doubt many would choose to pay to have solar panels fitted unless there was a financial benefit, for most the only reason is to save money and folk rightly want to know how long it will take to get their investment back to see if it is worth it for their own situation. The rising prices have obviously helped greatly those who chose to fit them and reduce the payback time.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 18, 2022)

pool888 said:



			Because some people get enjoyment from their kitchen and feel it improves their quality of life and are happy to pay for that. I doubt many would choose to pay to have solar panels fitted unless there was a financial benefit, for most the only reason is to save money and folk rightly want to know how long it will take to get their investment back to see if it is worth it for their own situation. The rising prices have obviously helped greatly those who chose to fit them and reduce the payback time.
		
Click to expand...

but back to the car situation tho.. if somebody had 60k to spend on a car and pick a tesla over a BMW for example.. why is it always about payback .. might actually prefer driving it.

hell if I had 60k id love to get a model 3 or Y.. beautiful cars in person


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## pool888 (Nov 18, 2022)

I sold my BMW for a Tesla 3 Performance mainly for financial reasons but have been very happy with it, so much so I'm now on my second one. Wouldn't like to have to go back to an ICE car now.


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## hovis (Nov 18, 2022)

pool888 said:



			I sold my BMW for a Tesla 3 Performance mainly for financial reasons but have been very happy with it, so much so I'm now on my second one. Wouldn't like to have to go back to an ICE car now.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.  When I drive my other car (diesel fiesta) I hate how it drives in comparison


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## DaveR (Nov 19, 2022)

hovis said:



			Me too.  When I drive my other car (diesel fiesta) I hate how it drives in comparison
		
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I've been in a few EVs and whilst they are/can be cheaper and greener I find them completely uninspiring to drive. Give me my straight 6 400hp BMW any day.


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2022)

srixon 1 said:



			I see this and think that some wise ass will walk by and unplug it because they think it’s funny. Driver returns with somewhere important to go and the batteries do not have enough charge to get there. Or, thieves will be nicking the cables to sell on for scrap.
		
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Paul said that the cable locks at both ends.
In which case, when do you think we will have the first Darwin Award for some numpty who thinks it would be fun to cut through a cable carrying a shedload of DC?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 19, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Paul said that the cable locks at both ends.
In which case, when do you think we will have the first Darwin Award for some numpty who thinks it would be fun to cut through a cable carrying a shedload of DC?
		
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Pair of wellies and a rubber mat they should be fine.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 19, 2022)

cliveb said:



			Paul said that the cable locks at both ends.
In which case, when do you think we will have the first Darwin Award for some numpty who thinks it would be fun to cut through a cable carrying a shedload of DC?
		
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As the pikeys discovered a long time ago just cropping through the cable trips the RCD… Easy money.


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			As the pikeys discovered a long time ago just cropping through the cable trips the RCD… Easy money.
		
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Perhaps these public chargers should have delayed RCDs so the miscreant can be fried before the power is cut 😈


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## hovis (Nov 19, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I've been in a few EVs and whilst they are/can be cheaper and greener I find them completely uninspiring to drive. Give me my straight 6 400hp BMW any day.
		
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Suppose its what are you after!  I don't look for inspiration when I drive.  I'm looking for comfort, noise and responsiveness.  Electric ticks all them boxes.    
I have to admit, I drove my friends shelby mustang gt500 last week.   I think It gave me an erection 😏


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## Pants (Nov 19, 2022)

hovis said:



			I have to admit, I drove my friends shelby mustang gt500 last week.   I think It gave me an erection 😏
		
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Won't get that from an EV unless you plug the wrong thing into a socket


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## OnTour (Nov 21, 2022)

Unwelcome drop in temperature and mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed. 10° and above they work


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

OnTour said:



			Unwelcome drop in temperature and mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed. 10° and above they work 

Click to expand...

To be fair it's the same with ice cars , drop in range etc in the cold it's just they can carry so much more fuel it isn't as noticeable


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			To be fair it's the same with ice cars , drop in range etc in the cold it's just they can carry so much more fuel it isn't as noticeable
		
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Neither my diesel van or petrol car suffer like that. Wishful thinking?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Neither my diesel van or petrol car suffer like that. Wishful thinking?

Click to expand...

Do you have a van that defies the laws of science?


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Neither my diesel van or petrol car suffer like that. Wishful thinking?

Click to expand...

''Cold weather and winter driving conditions can reduce your fuel economy significantly.''

https://www.gapinsurancetoday.co.uk/2019/02/14/why-car-use-fuel-winter/


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## road2ruin (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Do you have a van that defies the laws of science?
		
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To be fair my Audi’s drop in mileage in colder weather was negligible. The drop in the Hyundai’s is already noticeable and it’s not even cold yet.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair my Audi’s drop in mileage in colder weather was negligible. The drop in the Hyundai’s is already noticeable and it’s not even cold yet.
		
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Fully agree. It's worse in an EV compared but to say Ice cars don't suffer is just "wishfull" thinking. I get 175 summer 140 winter roughly which is a 20% drop 

A 20% drop in the big car is 600-480 miles which is roughly what I've got (600 to 500) it's just not as big deal because I can carry so much fuel


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## DaveR (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Fully agree. It's worse in an EV compared but to say Ice cars don't suffer is just "wishfull" thinking. I get 175 summer 140 winter roughly which is a 20% drop

A 20% drop in the big car is 600-480 miles which is roughly what I've got (600 to 500) it's just not as big deal because I can carry so much fuel
		
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My diesel mileage drops by a couple of mpg in the winter. Have the climate control and lights on auto all the time. Motorway range might drop by 20 miles or so.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

DaveR said:



			My diesel mileage drops by a couple of mpg in the winter. Have the climate control and lights on auto all the time. Motorway range might drop by 20 miles or so.
		
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Climate control is a myth when it comes to winter range tbh, they have disproven that with ice cars because it uses the heat the engine gives off so it's just waste energy anyways so doesn't affect the mpg compared to EV which would have to create that energy which is why they have moved to using heat pumps


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## Pants (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			To be fair it's the same with ice cars , drop in range etc in the cold it's just they can carry so much more fuel it isn't as noticeable
		
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From the link Bob posted, apparently ICE vehicles only suffer a 12% loss which is mainly in the 1st few miles of travel, not 20 - 25% overall for EV's.  As you say, your range in your ICE may reduce from 600 - 500 miles (really!).  Topping up isn't an inconvenience.  To quote @OnTour "...mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. *glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed*".  

The more I read this thread, the more I'm inclined to stick with my oil burner for quite a while.


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

OnTour said:



			Unwelcome drop in temperature and mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed. 10° and above they work 

Click to expand...

I charge my car in the garage.  My 300 mile range still hit 285 this morning.  Outside it'll charge about to about 265


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			I charge my car in the garage.  My 300 mile range still hit 285 this morning.  Outside a d it'll charge about 265
		
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I really like your car (it's the Kona long range isn't it?) They are suppose to be one of the best around because they aren't just a big battery they are built so efficiently that they use the battery well 

I mean the iconic old one was it was 38kw battery pack and out lastest other cars with bigger batteries 

Such clever designed


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Do you have a van that defies the laws of science?
		
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The colder more dense air actually helps a turbo diesel.


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I really like your car (it's the Kona long range isn't it?) They are suppose to be one of the best around because they aren't just a big battery they are built so efficiently that they use the battery well

I mean the iconic old one was it was 38kw battery pack and out lastest other cars with bigger batteries

Such clever designed
		
Click to expand...

Yeh it's the long range one.  I have to admit it's an amazing car.  Fully loaded and great to drive.  We should have had a Mercedes e class amg but my wife went for the kona because of the tax.  I had a face on me like a smacked arse until I drove it.  

Boot space is poor.  That's my only gripe


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			''Cold weather and winter driving conditions *can *reduce your fuel economy significantly.''

https://www.gapinsurancetoday.co.uk/2019/02/14/why-car-use-fuel-winter/

Click to expand...

But the word "can" doesn't mean "will", or am I being a little bit neutral on ICE vehicles?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Pants said:



View attachment 45288


From the link Bob posted, apparently ICE vehicles only suffer a 12% loss which is mainly in the 1st few miles of travel, not 20 - 25% overall for EV's.  As you say, your range in your ICE may reduce from 600 - 500 miles (really!).  Topping up isn't an inconvenience.  To quote @OnTour "...mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. *glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed*". 

The more I read this thread, the more I'm inclined to stick with my oil burner for quite a while. 

Click to expand...

If he is going by the display (rather than miles driven) it's hard to judge without actually driving because the computers have been proven to be so rubbish in the main, only when people get used to what their car does they then are like ah this % will get me about this much 

I mean there have been times I've left for work with 50 miles left , done the 50 mile round trip (knowing I'll get there and back) and still had enough to do the trip again.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The colder more dense air actually helps a turbo diesel.
		
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What about the petrol one ?


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But the word "can" doesn't mean "will", or am I being a little bit neutral on ICE vehicles?
		
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Ok, try this...
''Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.''

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

It's worth noting that it isn't the efficienty that's cusing the drop his battery range. The cold just reduces how much electricity the battery can hold


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yeh it's the long range one.  I have to admit it's an amazing car.  Fully loaded and great to drive.  We should have had a Mercedes e class amg but my wife went for the kona because of the tax.  I had a face on me like a smacked arse until I drove it. 

Boot space is poor.  That's my only gripe
		
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That was the car I wanted , it was on one of them lease hot deals think was 299 pm with 3 months down for 3-4 years depending what you wanted ... I was well up for it but ofc they sold out and I went for the Corsa on a hot deal for 273 pm , same the rest 

I mean I could have got a Kona but the price to get them out the deal had gone to £450 think , just thought for a work commuting car as the kids can't fit regardless ATM wasn't worth the extra . Next time tho


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			What about the petrol one ?
		
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That does a constant 39-42 mpg all year round.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Ok, try this...
''Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.''

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather

Click to expand...

My van isn't "gasoline", and I keep a check on my van mpg all the time, and it runs between 30 and 35 mpg all year round, air con on or not.


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## Pants (Nov 21, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Ok, try this...
''Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.''

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather

Click to expand...

To be fair Bob, It's been many a year down here in the sunny south of the UK when the temp has been 20*F for any period of time.  Maybe 1947, 1963 and 1982 for a day or two.  And, as you point out, for short trips.  Once warmed up, range reduction isn't really an issue.


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## Slime (Nov 21, 2022)

OnTour said:



			Unwelcome drop in temperature and mileage has been hit already 200 to 165 from the 50kw pack. glad I did my road trip the week before or an extra 2 charges would have been needed. 10° and above they work 

Click to expand...




pauljames87 said:



*To be fair it's the same with ice cars *, drop in range etc in the cold it's just they can carry so much more fuel it isn't as noticeable
		
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No it isn't.
I don't lose almost 20% of my vehicle's range when the weather gets cold, nothing like it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Slime said:



			No it isn't.
I don't lose almost 20% of my vehicle's range when the weather gets cold, nothing like it.
		
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Ok but I never said ice was exactly the same I said it's the same in Ice that there is a drop off

Apologises for not being 100% crystal clear 

However Ice still is scientifically worse in the winter than summer


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## Jason.H (Nov 21, 2022)

Considering an EV for work. I’ve loved my VW Kombi Transporter but I no longer need so much space and i,d like the heater to work from the off rather than just as I’m getting to work 🥶. However financially it makes no sense whatsoever. 
Work is around 12 miles away. Is it worth changing? Do I commit to a 40/50k investment are questions I’m asking myself.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Considering an EV for work. I’ve loved my VW Kombi Transporter but I no longer need so much space and i,d like the heater to work from the off rather than just as I’m getting to work 🥶. However financially it makes no sense whatsoever.
Work is around 12 miles away. Is it worth changing? Do I commit to a 40/50k investment are questions I’m asking myself.
		
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Do you leave for work similar time every day?


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## Jason.H (Nov 21, 2022)

Yes why do you ask?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Yes why do you ask?
		
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You can set preconditions in the car / app, so when I leave for work / home etc (also can press to start it from the app aswell , I start on 18th tee if leaving straight after)

So when you get in car is beautiful, (also battery gets to optimum temp in most cars doing this so more efficient)

Plus no deicing in winter 

My mate loves when I pick him up in winter he always goes oh lovely pre conditioned car rather than having to wait for it to warm up 

Again not saying ice are bad .. it's just a nice little bonus of EV


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## Jason.H (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 45289


You can set preconditions in the car / app, so when I leave for work / home etc (also can press to start it from the app aswell , I start on 18th tee if leaving straight after)

So when you get in car is beautiful, (also battery gets to optimum temp in most cars doing this so more efficient)

Plus no deicing in winter

My mate loves when I pick him up in winter he always goes oh lovely pre conditioned car rather than having to wait for it to warm up

Again not saying ice are bad .. it's just a nice little bonus of EV
		
Click to expand...

Which car do you have?


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Considering an EV for work. I’ve loved my VW Kombi Transporter but I no longer need so much space and i,d like the heater to work from the off rather than just as I’m getting to work 🥶. However financially it makes no sense whatsoever.
Work is around 12 miles away. Is it worth changing? Do I commit to a 40/50k investment are questions I’m asking myself.
		
Click to expand...

Why does it have to be 40/50k?  A used Nissan leaf would achieve that.  In fact a plug in hybrid would manage that too


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			Which car do you have?
		
Click to expand...

Just a Corsa e. Nothing fancy but love the EV side of it .. not so much the Corsa side of it 

Think now pretty much all of them have preconditioning, it's standard feature now 

40-50k have you looked at the MG ones? They have a shape to suit most , 7 year warranty, 250 mile range on the long rangers and under 35k


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## DaveR (Nov 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			I charge my car in the garage.  My 300 mile range still hit 285 this morning.  Outside it'll charge about to about 265
		
Click to expand...

What's the motorway range in winter?


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## Slime (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ok but I never said ice was exactly the same I said it's the same in Ice that there is a drop off

Apologises for not being 100% crystal clear

*However Ice still is scientifically worse in the winter than summer*

Click to expand...

Worse, without question, but only marginally in my experience.
I'm talking less than 5% in the case of my car.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What's the motorway range in winter?
		
Click to expand...





I'd be happy with that tbh


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## Jason.H (Nov 21, 2022)

I test drove a Cupra Born a couple of weeks ago and that was 43k spec. It was nice to drive but i didn’t buy it. I guess I’m a little undecided at the moment. I have my own driveway so a home charge point would be easy. Are MG,s British?



pauljames87 said:



			Just a Corsa e. Nothing fancy but love the EV side of it .. not so much the Corsa side of it

Think now pretty much all of them have preconditioning, it's standard feature now

40-50k have you looked at the MG ones? They have a shape to suit most , 7 year warranty, 250 mile range on the long rangers and under 35k
		
Click to expand...


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## DaveR (Nov 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 45290


I'd be happy with that tbh
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. EV owners always talk about charging their cars from 10 to 80% Based on 175 motorway miles in winter that's only 122.5 miles. Driving at 70mph means you are stopping to charge less than every 2 hours. No thanks.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			I test drove a Cupra Born a couple of weeks ago and that was 43k spec. It was nice to drive but i didn’t buy it. I guess I’m a little undecided at the moment. I have my own driveway so a home charge point would be easy. Are MG,s British?
		
Click to expand...

Not anymore. Chinese (as is everything)

It really depends what your looking for in a car 

If you want a to b and your commute isn't much, leafs , mg wouldn't break bank and would do what you need 

If you want something fancy and your looking at that price you have VW's, Skoda models , copra . Inonic is lovely .. then ofc the model 3 telsa is just a class above .. only say that because they have been nothing but ev from day 1 so what they don't know about EVs isn't worth knowing


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## hovis (Nov 21, 2022)

DaveR said:



			What's the motorway range in winter?
		
Click to expand...

Worse case I charge my car when it's freezing outside I'll get about 250/260 worth of charge instead of 300.  As long as I don't exceed 70mph I'll get about 230 real miles with the heater on.  If I do 65mph I'll get 240/245.    If you drive at 80mph I'll get about 210 miles.  I've noticed that the car will do its stated miles at about 55mph

It's worth noting that when you drive in the winter the car has a battery heater that enables you to charge to its full capacity. so if I charge to 80% on the go it will charge to 240 miles in about 30 minutes.
You can use the battery heater at home to get the full charge but I hear its not cost efficient.  I only use that function if I absolutely need the 300 miles. 

There's lots of technical stuff about my car that I'm still trying to get my head around 🤔


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I wouldn't. EV owners always talk about charging their cars from 10 to 80% Based on 175 motorway miles in winter that's only 122.5 miles. Driving at 70mph means you are stopping to charge less than every 2 hours. No thanks.
		
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Other factors would come into play it really isn't black and white as 122.5 miles then stop 

If you leave home with 100% and you can get to your destination in under 90% go for it 

Leaves more than 15 miles in the tank to find a charger later on or if the place you going has a charger even better 

Or if you are going let's say for sake of argument 250 miles , you leave with 100% drive 150 miles which will take you what 2.5 hours? Then stop, charge from 10% to 80% and do the final 100 miles 

One stop in a 250 mile drive isn't unreasonable


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## Pants (Nov 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			One stop in a 250 mile drive isn't unreasonable
		
Click to expand...

  So on a 500 mile round trip (yes, I often do those as MIL is in York and I'm SE London) having spent a small fortune on being able to get "free" energy, you still have to stop part way to find a charging point, maybe wait a while for one to become available, spend 30/45 (?) mins charging up to only 80%, get to destination, find charger, top up, ditto on way back... 

You may think that not unreasonable.  I think it's downright inconvenient and probably not a lot cheaper than my oil burner that easily does the round trip without refilling.  And please, please don't give me all that  about going EV saving the planet.  Keeping my diesel for a few more years will cause far less ecological damage than scrapping it, or selling it on, and having a brand new EV manufactured.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

Pants said:



 So on a 500 mile round trip (yes, I often do those as MIL is in York and I'm SE London) having spent a small fortune on being able to get "free" energy, you still have to stop part way to find a charging point, maybe wait a while for one to become available, spend 30/45 (?) mins charging up to only 80%, get to destination, find charger, top up, ditto on way back...

You may think that not unreasonable.  I think it's downright inconvenient and probably not a lot cheaper than my oil burner that easily does the round trip without refilling.  And please, please don't give me all that  about going EV saving the planet.  Keeping my diesel for a few more years will cause far less ecological damage than scrapping it, or selling it on, and having a brand new EV manufactured.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that the point rather than switching right this second it's when you naturally would be switching anyways? So it doesn't add to your carbon footprint as you were scrapping anyways.

If you frequently do 500 mile round trips then obviously EV isn't for you.


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## bobmac (Nov 22, 2022)

Pants said:



			you still have to stop part way to find a charging point, maybe wait a while for one to become available, spend 30/45 (?) mins charging up to only 80%, get to destination, find charger, top up, ditto on way back...
		
Click to expand...

If you've got any sense you'll use Zap-Map.
That tells you where the chargers are, if they work and if they are being used.
So if there are 4 chargers, one is out of order and the other 3 are being used, don't go there, go to the next one.


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2022)

Looking at the bigger picture, does anybody think that house prices will be affected by the inability to have a charge point installed. Anyone with no off-road parking or garage is going to be stuffed after 2030 aren't they?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Looking at the bigger picture, does anybody think that house prices will be affected by the inability to have a charge point installed. Anyone with no off-road parking or garage is going to be stuffed after 2030 aren't they?
		
Click to expand...

There is a new charger out there , brilliant idea. They install it in the house but it is just the wiring and when people get EV they just click this cover on and bamn it becomes an EV charger 

Also if you install a load of them on same circuit it will manage the load between them all 

Very clever


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you've got any sense you'll use Zap-Map.
That tells you where the chargers are, if they work and if they are being used.
So if there are 4 chargers, one is out of order and the other 3 are being used, don't go there, go to the next one.
		
Click to expand...

That's adds a significant extra layer of time and stress onto a journey though. You plan to stop at point A on a journey heading south. You are driving, you can't check the app on your phone. You arrive and there are no chargers available at A, you don't want to wait for someone to come back to their car, who knows how long that will be? You check your app, there is another charger 10 mile north, back on yourself, 25 south, pushing your range, or 8 miles west, again away from your route.

If you are doing a big trip you just don't need those delays, stresses etc. It's perhaps okay if you have all day to make that trip but most people are not in that position, I'm not for example. 

I do decent sized journeys still and still don't see the banks of chargers that I need to see before changing enters my mind, not even close. We keep being promised them but that's all we get, promises. When it finally happens I'll join in but telling people to bounce around charging points in order to find an empty one, a charger that is empty when you check your phone at 8.00 might be used by 8.15 when you get there, is not the answer.


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## DaveR (Nov 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			If you've got any sense you'll use Zap-Map.
That tells you where the chargers are, if they work and if they are being used.
So if there are 4 chargers, one is out of order and the other 3 are being used, don't go there, go to the next one.
		
Click to expand...

I downloaded and tried out my local bike/electric scooter hire scheme. Picked up a scooter at the 'depot' just round the corner from my house and scooted to Asda where I dropped it off. When I came out I  walked back to the collection point but that scooter had gone so I checked the app. Nearest one was about 600 yards away in the High Street so off I go. Quite literally I was 5 yards away from it when a kid unlocked it and rode off. No more anywhere close so I took a bike instead.

Bit like real life and electric chargers I guess. App might show them as available but when you actually get there.........


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## bobmac (Nov 22, 2022)

Drive what you want.
I'm done.


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## banjofred (Nov 22, 2022)

I still think 2030 will be delayed.....just can't see it happening.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			If you frequently do 500 mile round trips then obviously EV isn't for you.
		
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People just chucking barriers in to support their bias mate.  I drove to Glen eagles and back that was 315 each way.  I stopped at penrith,  plugged in my car and had a 25 minute break in morrisons (crazy price for a breakfast BTW).  On the way back I did the same in Carlisle. Even on a 250 mile one way journey who doesn't stop for a break on a 250 mile trip?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			People just chucking barriers in to support their bias mate.  I drove to Glen eagles and back that was 315 each way.  I stopped at penrith,  plugged in my car and had a 25 minute break in morrisons (crazy price for a breakfast BTW).  On the way back I did the same in Carlisle. Even on a 250 mile one way journey who doesn't stop for a break on a 250 mile trip?
		
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I would love to get a model 3 long range to take advantage of their supercharger network, the Teslas are a league of their own 

On your point of stops, when I was in my 20s my best mate lived 222 miles away and I used to drive it all the time without stopping , I couldn't do that now at 35. I reckon 2 hours would be my limit and that would be pushing it 

I remember once 222 there, quick wee and 222 back as we were going on holiday .. was mental . Scary to think that now


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Drive what you want.
I'm done.
		
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Discussion is good but if you want to push people down a certain route, post 3049, you have to expect questions. Answer those questions, show us how worries are unfounded. If they are not then don't push.

You have said it before, electric is great for local journeys, less so for long distance. When that changes the argument for change becomes far stronger.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Discussion is good but if you want to push people down a certain route, post 3049, you have to expect questions. Answer those questions, show us how worries are unfounded. If they are not then don't push.

You have said it before, electric is great for local journeys, less so for long distance. When that changes the argument for change becomes far stronger.
		
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The problem is (without too much straying into the P word) the government have put this date in, whilst holding back the tech that is needed.

After covid they changed the law / requirement for ALL carparks to have ev chargers installed , now it's only new or refurbished ones , that's one obstruction 

All new builds should have had to have them years ago, along with solar 

I know it sounds green rubbish but honestly we have a problem in this country of needing to change but holding back the tech that enables it 

Solar farms because they don't look pretty etc 

The date of 2030 would be achievable with support from gov into really launching EVs properly and even scrappage schemes to encourage people.. all kinds of things


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2022)

@pauljames87 , yup, agree with all of that and more. The deadline is a nonsense figure, with little to back it up other than bluster, sadly.


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## road2ruin (Nov 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Discussion is good but if you want to push people down a certain route, post 3049, you have to expect questions. Answer those questions, show us how worries are unfounded. If they are not then don't push.

You have said it before, electric is *great for local journeys, less so for long distance*. When that changes the argument for change becomes far stronger.
		
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I think this is the crux of it and those arguing who are at the extremes in terms of their driving don't represent the majority of drivers. For example, I used to drive 500 miles a day so an EV would be completely impractical so I would never consider one however I also don't represent the normal driver so I don't think that my arguing against EV's is particularly useful. Maybe when the batteries have the range and the charging speed allows these sorts of drivers would be more catered for and it might be more practical.

Once you take these drivers out I do honestly think that an EV would be suitable for the vast majority of drivers who are able to have a home charger. I appreciate that not everyone has off street parking etc so my comment re. the high mileage lot also applies to them, as things stand it's probably not practical and public charging can get pretty expensive especially if you want to use a fast charger. 

For those who do lots of local journey's and then a once/twice a year big trip e.g. Cornwall etc then an EV would make sense. Yes the longer trip would need more planning however that would account for a journey a year or so, the rest of the journeys of disappearing to Tesco, taking the kids to gymnastics or going to the golf courses are easily covered in the 'pootling about' category and having to charge would rarely be a consideration.


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## Neilds (Nov 22, 2022)

Another issue to look at with putting chargers in public car parks is - are the great British public polite enough to use them sensibly?  In order to best use them, you would need to park at a charger, and then move your car to another space when the charge is complete.  If you park for work, are people actually going to return to their car halfway through the day to free up the charger or just hog it fo rthe rest of the day.  Given the way the country is at the moment, I suspect i know what the answer will be.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Another issue to look at with putting chargers in public car parks is - are the great British public polite enough to use them sensibly?  In order to best use them, you would need to park at a charger, and then move your car to another space when the charge is complete.  If you park for work, are people actually going to return to their car halfway through the day to free up the charger or just hog it fo rthe rest of the day.  Given the way the country is at the moment, I suspect i know what the answer will be.
		
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No they are not. In the slightest.

Chargers have built in idle charges so when your full some charge £1 a min or a flat £10 or something stupid so the app will let you know what time you will be at the % you want and then you go back and move it or drive off 

However it's not ev drivers who are the problem it's everyone. Taking the daughter swimming the local car park has a Tesla super charger on the ground floor . Always a few ice cars in there. Need the car park to fine them. Same with EV aswell before anyone moans, if your not plugged in and in a charge bay I would expect to be fined


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## DaveR (Nov 22, 2022)

I watched a news article the other day about the RAF trialing a new low emissions fuel for aircraft, 80% lower. If that technology filters down to cars then I can also see the 2030 date for end of new ICE vehicles being pushed back.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 22, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I watched a news article the other day about the RAF trialing a new low emissions fuel for aircraft, 80% lower. If that technology filters down to cars then I can also see the 2030 date for end of new ICE vehicles being pushed back.
		
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That's the point the fair fuel UK group are making, trying to push everything down the electric route rather than allowing other solutions to develop.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			People just chucking barriers in to support their bias mate.  I drove to Glen eagles and back that was 315 each way.  I stopped at penrith,  plugged in my car and had a 25 minute break in morrisons (crazy price for a breakfast BTW).  On the way back I did the same in Carlisle. Even on a 250 mile one way journey who doesn't stop for a break on a 250 mile trip?
		
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I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works _for you,_ they don't think your use-case advantages make sense _to them_. 

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it. 

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities. 

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded. 

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works _for you,_ they don't think your use-case advantages make sense _to them_.

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it.

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities.

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded.

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.
		
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The problem I find, which is always the case with tech, is people form their views/ opinions on one old fact they read say back in 2015 and they then continue to use that as fact and even tell others it as a "fact" which just spreads old myths 

Some examples 

"They need to standardise chargers" they have. Type 2 with CCS (leaf does have chademo but new ones are CCS Ie their new suv and future leaf remodels are going to be)

"Batteries end up in landfill" the batteries are given second life's at the end of their car life's . Repurposed as house batteries for example 

"The grid isn't green so doesn't make a difference" burning gas for example to make electric is more efficient than burning a fossil fuel yourself to make energy 

"EVs can't be towed or engaged to neutral" they can , mainly misunderstanding from the end user / break down service but that Tesla that blocked a car park in London you can enable tow mode.

"You can't use the heater it drains the battery" majority of EVs use heat pumps and pre condition so it uses very low energy to provide the heat .. you don't need to drive in a jumper 

On other tech like solar 

"They are useless in the winter" they still provide electric even in the winter yes it not as much better something is better than nothing 

It's fine people asking questions about tech but it's when people pass old outdated statements as fact as of now it's just annoying.

Tech moves so fast you need to keep up with it


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works _for you,_ they don't think your use-case advantages make sense _to them_.

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it.

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities.

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded.

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.
		
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 I'm specifically talking about the argument being made about the range and charging infrastructure.  You've took my statement and ran with it.   I will conceded the point that there are specific situations that rule people out  from owning an eV (no off road parking for one) but the argument of "its not for me because I drive 500 miles a day" isn't a valid one.  Its a simple solution but people just won't accept the reality.  Blinkers on!!!!!!
People don't like change.  Its clear from this post that some people will not accept the change no matter what the argument. They just see problems.  As an eV owner that has driven the length of the country I can testify that all off the charging and range issues are easily resolved with minimal effort.   I have to admit that life would be more difficult if I had a 200 mile range instead of my 300.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2022)

It might take a decade or two but it may be the case that in future we all use EVs for local and shorter distance travel…for occasional longer distance driving we either take the train or hire EVs to drive to intermediate points and pick up another EV tp complete our jourhey.  A bit like what they did for such as the ‘pony express’ way back in the day or indeed everywhere when travel was by horse-pulled stagecoach.  For longer distances the passengers either changed coach, or the coach had a change of horses.

The model worked for,most people as for most people long distance travel was very rare - as in the future that may well become for most of us in day2day life and work.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It might take a decade or two but it may be the case that in future we all use EVs for local and shorter distance travel…for occasional longer distance driving we either take the train or hire EVs to drive to intermediate points and pick up another EV tp complete our jourhey.  A bit like what they did for such as the ‘pony express’ way back in the day or indeed everywhere when travel was by horse-pulled stagecoach.  For longer distances the passengers either changed coach, or the coach had a change of horses.

The model worked for,most people as for most people long distance travel was very rare - as in the future that may well become for most of us in day2day life and work.
		
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Another point I missed in my reply to @Lord Tyrion .. with the moving away from ice and climate change we need good public transport but it's being destroyed.

It needs investing in and made cheaper for end user not the reverse


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm specifically talking about the argument being made about the range and charging infrastructure.  You've took my statement and ran with it.   I will conceded the point that there are specific situations that rule people out  from owning an eV (no off road parking for one) but the argument of "its not for me because I drive 500 miles a day" isn't a valid one.  Its a simple solution but people just won't accept the reality.  Blinkers on!!!!!!
People don't like change.  Its clear from this post that some people will not accept the change no matter what the argument. They just see problems.  As an eV owner that has driven the length of the country I can testify that all off the charging and range issues are easily resolved with minimal effort.   I have to admit that life would be more difficult if I had a 200 mile range instead of my 300.
		
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Again, you equate this to what works for you. You state that "it's not valid" to argue that driving 500 miles is problematic. Maybe not for you, but it may be for their use-case. And it's certainly not up to me to state what is or isn't a valid issue for anyone, you may feel that you have that right. 

There are blinkers on both sides. Just because you fervently support one thing doesn't mean that you aren't blinkered just like the opposing view. This is what amuses me about these discussions, you are either pro or anti and nothing in between. And if you are anti, then you are somehow wrong on all counts. 

I will point out that I work in delivering change, I propose, design and deliver change on an almost daily basis so I am certainly not anti-change. People WILL accept change (to say otherwise would mean that we would not have advanced at all), but like everything, change must meet certain conditions in order for it to be successful or acceptable. Someone saying "it works, because I say so and it works for me" does not a successful nor acceptable change make. 

In many cases where people see problems, its because the problem manifestly exists (it may only exist for their use-case, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). 

I will also point out that I am not anti-EV, I am currently waiting for one (current delivery Sept 2023). I am in a position where I don't drive long distances and I have the ability to charge at home. If I did do long distances then I would need to consider the factors in balance. 

We seem to be beyond rational debate when it comes to people having opposing views in society these days. 

as I say, all of the above and my previous is opinion. I'm not going to argue with someone about my opinion on any subject. But rather than call people blinkered or fearful of change, I like to think that I try to rationalise that opinion a little.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Again, you equate this to what works for you. You state that "it's not valid" to argue that driving 500 miles is problematic. Maybe not for you, but it may be for their use-case. And it's certainly not up to me to state what is or isn't a valid issue for anyone, you may feel that you have that right.

There are blinkers on both sides. Just because you fervently support one thing doesn't mean that you aren't blinkered just like the opposing view. This is what amuses me about these discussions, you are either pro or anti and nothing in between. And if you are anti, then you are somehow wrong on all counts.

I will point out that I work in delivering change, I propose, design and deliver change on an almost daily basis so I am certainly not anti-change. People WILL accept change (to say otherwise would mean that we would not have advanced at all), but like everything, change must meet certain conditions in order for it to be successful or acceptable. Someone saying "it works, because I say so and it works for me" does not a successful nor acceptable change make.

In many cases where people see problems, its because the problem manifestly exists (it may only exist for their use-case, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).

I will also point out that I am not anti-EV, I am currently waiting for one (current delivery Sept 2023). I am in a position where I don't drive long distances and I have the ability to charge at home. If I did do long distances then I would need to consider the factors in balance.

We seem to be beyond rational debate when it comes to people having opposing views in society these days.

as I say, all of the above and my previous is opinion. I'm not going to argue with someone about my opinion on any subject. But rather than call people blinkered or fearful of change, I like to think that I try to rationalise that opinion a little.
		
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I'm not saying it's what works "for me" at all.  I'm stating that if you have off road parking then driving 500 miles a day (for anyone) is not a problem and therefore is a argument you can't use.  Even if you live on the Isle of sky.   If a person wants to use an argument that they don't have the time to pull over for 40 minutes over a 500 journey then I still won't hear it as that is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous.  I scape people off the road for a living so I know the dangers off driving long distances.  You have to eat at some point

It may seem like I have opposing blinkers on, I don't.  I'm just hearing argument on something that's not an issue.  You may have noticed that I haven't tried to defend evs' when it comes to off road parking and low capacity batteries!!!! That's because its a valid argument


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2022)

Just over 2 years ago I wrote the first reply to this thread.
Due to my temporary retirement we are now both in the position that EV would be perfect. 
But nothing else has changed..both cars are still paid for, both running well with loads of miles left in them.
The cost to change is massively prohibitive.
What's the 2nd hand market like?
Are many, rightly or wrong, a bit vary of buying 2nd hand?
So the answer to the question in the title is still - No.....


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Just over 2 years ago I wrote the first reply to this thread.
Due to my temporary retirement we are now both in the position that EV would be perfect.
But nothing else has changed..both cars are still paid for, both running well with loads of miles left in them.
The cost to change is massively prohibitive.
What's the 2nd hand market like?
Are many, rightly or wrong, a bit vary of buying 2nd hand?
So the answer to the question in the title is still - No.....
		
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I still have 1 ice car in my house.  Its not worth the change for me until I "need" a new car.  But even then, unless the an eV car is within my budget 10k I can't afford one


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm not saying it's what works "for me" at all.  I'm stating that if you have off road parking then driving 500 miles a day (for anyone) is not a problem and therefore is a argument you can't use.  Even if you live on the Isle of sky.   If a person wants to use an argument that they don't have the time to pull over for 40 minutes over a 500 journey then I still won't hear it as that is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous.  I scape people off the road for a living so I know the dangers off driving long distances.  You have to eat at some point

It may seem like I have opposing blinkers on, I don't.  I'm just hearing argument on something that's not an issue.  You may have noticed that I haven't tried to defend evs' when it comes to off road parking and low capacity batteries!!!! That's because its a valid argument
		
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We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it _relative to their requirements. _You see, in change, requirements are everything. 

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come. 

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions. 

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).


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## DaveR (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it _relative to their requirements. _You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, *but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.*

*Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.*

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. *I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though*).
		
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Yeah it is a tad facetious when you've got 100k worth of cars on your drive. Most of us aren't in your position.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Yeah it is a tad facetious when you've got 100k worth of cars on your drive. Most of us aren't in your position.
		
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It was more to highlight that just because it works for me (or could work for me) that it's not suitable for all. 

Clumsily made point, but a point none-the-less.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it _relative to their requirements. _You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).
		
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Give me one reason why a 500 mile round trip would cause a problem to anyone with off road parking?  Like a said, I won't except not stopping for a short time as an issue.   It's simply not safe.


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## oxymoron (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it _relative to their requirements. _You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a*) move house *and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).
		
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I have followed this with interest and broadly agree with you , however this bit i highlighted is making me chuckle , there are only so many houses with off road parking and someone will move in to the one you sold with no parking , 
however why cant some sort of device be constructed like one of those security posts you lift out of the ground when you need it ? If i could get this sort of thing i would get an EV in an instant ( we live in a terraced house) .
Like you said earlier there are ways around the issues of charging but there are ways round them as well if we could just focus on solutions not problems.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

oxymoron said:



			I have followed this with interest and broadly agree with you , however this bit i highlighted is making me chuckle , there are only so many houses with off road parking and someone will move in to the one you sold with no parking ,
however why cant some sort of device be constructed like one of those security posts you lift out of the ground when you need it ? If i could get this sort of thing i would get an EV in an instant ( we live in a terraced house) .
Like you said earlier there are ways around the issues of charging but there are ways round them as well if we could just focus on solutions not problems.
		
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They are on the way but then people moan about leads trailing around being health and safety Hazard


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 22, 2022)

I've followed this thread with interest. We have 2 ice cars that need replacing. Our mileage has dropped drastically post covid but we still need 2 cars. We'd like to replace one with an EV but lease prices seem to have gone through the roof. Is there any sign of them coming back down due to increased production or supply chain issues being solved?


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## oxymoron (Nov 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			They are on the way but then people moan about leads trailing around being health and safety Hazard

View attachment 45300

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These are great , but surely the leads would be from the post in to the road ? Some people will find fault with anything !


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Give me one reason why a 500 mile round trip would cause a problem to anyone with off road parking?  *Like a said, I won't except not stopping for a short time as an issue*.   It's simply not safe.
		
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As is absolutely your right of opinion to do so. Other people might not agree. We can't say they are wrong because we disagree.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

oxymoron said:



			I have followed this with interest and broadly agree with you , however this bit i highlighted is making me chuckle , there are only so many houses with off road parking and someone will move in to the one you sold with no parking ,
however why cant some sort of device be constructed like one of those security posts you lift out of the ground when you need it ? If i could get this sort of thing i would get an EV in an instant ( we live in a terraced house) .
Like you said earlier there are ways around the issues of charging but there are ways round them as well if we could just focus on solutions not problems.
		
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As I say, it was a facetious point made rather clumsily. What we are being told is that any issue has a solution regardless of how or what the challenge to the individual is, so I was merely pointing out that this applies in all directions, including and not limited to moving house. It is a solution. Might not work for everyone, but then this is the exact point I was making. 

There are and will be solutions to many problems, but as before they might not work for everyone and we simply can't take the stance that those people are wrong because it works for us.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			As is absolutely your right of opinion to do so. Other people might not agree. We can't say they are wrong because we disagree.
		
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It's not just my opinion.  The Highway code recommends a stop and most cars now chime or bleep at you to take a break every two hours.   Anyway, is that your only instance?  Not suitable for people who can't stop for a short while?  If yes then I agree with you.  If you are the 0.1% of people that drive 500 miles a day and don't feel any responsibility to stop for a break then yes,   don't buy an eV with a range of less than 500 miles.  It won't be for you


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			It's not just my opinion.  The Highway code recommends a stop and most cars now chime or bleep at you to take a break every two hours.   Anyway, is that your only instance?  Not suitable for people who can't stop for a short while?  If yes then I agree with you.  If you are the 0.1% of people that drive 500 miles a day and don't feel any responsibility to stop for a break then yes,   don't buy an eV with a range of less than 500 miles.  It won't be for you
		
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I agree, if it doesn't work for you then it's not for you. But I can't say they are wrong or not accept their view because I disagree. I think you're fundamentally missing that point that it's not about safety or possibility it's about telling someone that because YOU disagree and have a solution that works for you, that they are wrong for disagreeing and saying that it doesn't work for them. 

Oh and the highway code recommends, but doesn't enforce. 

I will leave it there as I believe you are fully indoctrinated and are missing the actual point trying to convince me that I'm one of the wrong uns that hate change and hate EVs.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			As I say, it was a facetious point made rather clumsily. What we are being told is that any issue has a solution regardless of how or what the challenge to the individual is, so I was merely pointing out that this applies in all directions, including and not limited to moving house. It is a solution. Might not work for everyone, but then this is the exact point I was making.

There are and will be solutions to many problems, but as before they might not work for everyone and we simply can't take the stance that those people are wrong because it works for us.
		
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I am not saying any problem has a solution.  Stop padding out your argument.  I am saying the issue of not being able to own an eV because you dri e 500 miles a day isn't a valid argument.  Why don't you listen to a person that knows more about this particular instance than you.  You a blindly disagreeing with no valid counter argument.   
If you are driving 500 miles you are going to be short 200 miles.  That takes around 30/40 to charge or 2 x 15 minutes stops (one on the way out and one on the way back).  This is the ONLY barrier.     As I've said before almost all people would stop for this amount of time for such a large journey anyway


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## banjofred (Nov 22, 2022)

I used to drive a lot more than I do now, but driving for up to 6+ hours was no problem for me. Occasionally I might need to jump out of the car somewhere to pee on a bush every 2-3hrs.....I drink a lot of diet Coke......the bladder is the boss. Can only imagine if you tried to force truckers into stopping every 2 hours for a long break.....


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			I am not saying any problem has a solution.  Stop padding out your argument.  I am saying the issue of not being able to own an eV because you dri e 500 miles a day isn't a valid argument.  Why don't you listen to a person that knows more about this particular instance than you.  You a blindly disagreeing with no valid counter argument.  
If you are driving 500 miles you are going to be short 200 miles.  That takes around 30/40 to charge or 2 x 15 minutes stops (one on the way out and one on the way back).  This is the ONLY barrier.     As I've said before almost all people would stop for this amount of time for such a large journey anyway
		
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There's no padding to my argument. Not sure what you're reading fella. You admit there is a barrier, yet won't accept that the barrier might not suit some people. We won't agree on this that I refuse to tell people that they are wrong for disagreeing with me on something. 

I bow down to your superior knowledge on all things EV because you have one... Oaft!


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			There's no padding to my argument. Not sure what you're reading fella. You admit there is a barrier, yet won't accept that the barrier might not suit some people. We won't agree on this that I refuse to tell people that they are wrong for disagreeing with me on something.

I bow down to your superior knowledge on all things EV because you have one... Oaft!
		
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GreiginFife said:



			There's no padding to my argument. Not sure what you're reading fella. You admit there is a barrier, yet won't accept that the barrier might not suit some people. We won't agree on this that I refuse to tell people that they are wrong for disagreeing with me on something.

I bow down to your superior knowledge on all things EV because you have one... Oaft!
		
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Does anyone other than the poster see stopping for 30/40 minutes over a 7/8 hour drive as a barrier?
It's doesn't have to be one stop
1 x 40 minutes 
2 x 20 minutes 
3 x 10 minutes 

OVER A SEVEN HOUR DRIVE!!!


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## Neilds (Nov 22, 2022)

In my opinion, it is not the fact that you have to stop to recharge (and rest) after 2-300 miles but the fact that you aren't guarenteed a charger when you plan to stop.  Your planned 30 minutes stop may turn into a couple of hours as you keep popping out from the cafe to check if the chargers are free.  Charger anxiety is much more of a problem than range anxiety.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

Neilds said:



			In my opinion, it is not the fact that you have to stop to recharge (and rest) after 2-300 miles but the fact that you aren't guarenteed a charger when you plan to stop.  Your planned 30 minutes stop may turn into a couple of hours as you keep popping out from the cafe to check if the chargers are free.  Charger anxiety is much more of a problem than range anxiety.
		
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I'm glad you've come up with something valid.  This was my biggest worry and I spent my early days with my head in charging apps.  In reality there are a lot more charging stations than you think.  Most people just look at service stations.  I use instavolt most of the time and I have never had one out of order.  I did have one instance where the charger stated 50kw charging but when two cars where in use you only got 25kw.  So my charge was 1 hour instead of 30 minutes.    As most of them are located at McDonald's I used the time Wisley 😜


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Does anyone other than the poster see stopping for 30/40 minutes over a 7/8 hour drive as a barrier?
		
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I don't know. But he does, and so it doesn't work for him. I might not agree with him but I'm not going to say he's wrong, blinkered if I don't know what his requirements to change are. 

Why not listen to someone that knows more about change than you do?


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I don't know. But he does, and so it doesn't work for him. I might not agree with him but I'm not going to say he's wrong, blinkered if I don't know what his requirements to change are.

Why not listen to someone that knows more about change than you do?
		
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I've said before. If you are the type of brain dead moron that wants to drive that distance without a break then an eV isn't for you.  You knot going to have enough juice to get home.  To all the other normal people that don't mind a stop then don't worry. You'll be fine with a eV. 

Better?


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Does anyone other than the poster see stopping for 30/40 minutes over a 7/8 hour drive as a barrier?
It's doesn't have to be one stop
1 x 40 minutes
2 x 20 minutes
3 x 10 minutes

OVER A SEVEN HOUR DRIVE!!!
		
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Actuallly, to me it is a bit a barrier. OK Longest drive I will do will be 4-5 hours down to my father in law in Devon. I am doing that for Xmas this year. Once I am on the road, I just want to get the miles done. Have drink, coffee and snacks in the car and, aside from if the call of nature needs answering, I am head down and drive it in one go if I can. I have no desire to stop anywher for half an hour or, in fact, any time. I just want to get it done. Now, we may be able to cope in our household with one electric and one regular car and that is an option that we have considered but then I look at the price of an electric car and what I can get for the same money and that thought goes out of the window. 

We are all different, I am not ready for the switch to electric fully. One day, yes, but I need a decent car of a decent size with a decent boot at a resonable price and a solid and reliable range of a couple of hundred miles or more before I am considering a change to electric

Guess I am am brain dead moron.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Actuallly, to me it is a bit a barrier. OK Longest drive I will do will be 4-5 hours down to my father in law in Devon. I am doing that for Xmas this year. Once I am on the road, I just want to get the miles done. Have drink, coffee and snacks in the car and, aside from if the call of nature needs answering, I am head down and drive it in one go if I can. I have no desire to stop anywher for half an hour or, in fact, any time. I just want to get it done. Now, we may be able to cope in our household with one electric and one regular car and that is an option that we have considered but then I look at the price of an electric car and what I can get for the same money and that thought goes out of the window.

We are all different, I am not ready for the switch to electric fully. One day, yes, but I need a decent car of a decent size with a decent boot at a resonable price and a solid and reliable range of a couple of hundred miles or more before I am considering a change to electric

Guess I am am brain dead moron.
		
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How long in miles is the drive?  Out of interest where to and where from


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## GreiginFife (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			I've said before. *If you are the type of brain dead moron* that wants to drive that distance without a break then an eV isn't for you.  You knot going to have enough juice to get home.  To all the other normal people that don't mind a stop then don't worry. You'll be fine with a eV.

Better?
		
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Wow! That arrogance really does know no bounds. I don't know why knots would come in to it though. 

I'm clearly not as diety-like as you to define who is and who isn't normal, let alone use such base language to describe them.


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			How long in miles is the drive?  Out of interest where to and where from
		
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Just shy of 250 Miles, Ropsley in Lincolnshire to North Molton


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Just shy of 250 Miles, Ropsley in Lincolnshire to North Molton
		
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So you wouldn't have to stop.  If you're there for Xmas you could charge with the power cable through normal electrics and wouldn't need to stop on the way home either.
You'd still arrive with 50 miles in the tank so if charging was an issue at your dad's house then you need to find 200 miles of juice from somewhere.  That route is littered with rapid chargers.   So, if you can't charge at the house using a normal plug then how does a 30 minute wait sound at a Morrisons? or Mcdonalds?.  Is it worth the £40+ you'll save on petrol/diesel?
That's what your journey would look like
Or two 15 minute stops of course whilst you take a piss on each leg🤷‍♂️.
(leg of the journey not your actual leg)


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			So you wouldn't have to stop.  If you're there for Xmas you could charge with the power cable through normal electrics.
You'd still arrive with 50 miles in the tank so if charging was an issue at your dad's house then you need to find 200 miles of juice from somewhere.  That route is littered with rapid chargers.   So, if you can't charge at the house using a normal plug then how does a 30 minute wait sound at a Morris ons? or Mcdonalds?.  Is it worth the £40+ you'll save on petrol/diesel? 
That's what your journey would look like
Or two 15 minute stops of course whilst you take a piss🤷‍♂️
		
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Nope, not for me, reallly do not want to stop if I can avoid it but, as I said, only one of a few factors plus I would need to be damned certain that car would make the journey and that the purported mileage was not in lab conditions.  Just looking at the cost of an electric car that can fit 4 people comfortably plus luggage that has the range needed. My very comfortable, low mileage Skoda Octavia was £8000 when I bought it. Just had a very quick look online (and it was very quick) and a Nissan Leaf (which may be too small) but is of a similar age and mileage to when I bough my car £21450.00. Sorry, if I am spending over 21 grand on a second hand car, I am looking for something much more exotic than a Nissan Leaf.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

https://www.cleevelyev.co.uk/electric-vehicle-servicing/

I think these guys are brilliant..I will be choosing them next over vauxhall for My service 

They come out in a mg 5 EV all over the country and service your EV on your driveway (or other places) think it's a great idea 

They can even offer money off your bill if you charge their car up off your home charger whilst they service so they don't have to top up 

Think it's a cracking idea


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nope, not for me, reallly do not want to stop if I can avoid it but, as I said, only one of a few factors plus I would need to be damned certain that car would make the journey and that the purported mileage was not in lab conditions.  Just looking at the cost of an electric car that can fit 4 people comfortably plus luggage that has the range needed. My very comfortable, low mileage Skoda Octavia was £8000 when I bought it. Just had a very quick look online (and it was very quick) and a Nissan Leaf (which may be too small) but is of a similar age and mileage to when I bough my car £21450.00. Sorry, if I am spending over 21 grand on a second hand car, I am looking for something much more exotic than a Nissan Leaf.
		
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Just for a point on leafs they are massive inside and really nice to drive because they are designed as EV from the floor up rather than a normal car ripped out with EV shoved in


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Nope, not for me, reallly do not want to stop if I can avoid it but, as I said, only one of a few factors plus I would need to be damned certain that car would make the journey and that the purported mileage was not in lab conditions.  Just looking at the cost of an electric car that can fit 4 people comfortably plus luggage that has the range needed. My very comfortable, low mileage Skoda Octavia was £8000 when I bought it. Just had a very quick look online (and it was very quick) and a Nissan Leaf (which may be too small) but is of a similar age and mileage to when I bough my car £21450.00. Sorry, if I am spending over 21 grand on a second hand car, I am looking for something much more exotic than a Nissan Leaf.
		
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No no I get it.  I was just talking about the range issues that many people use as an excuse when it's easily fixed.   
The car size vs price is probably the best argument with eV owners.  My mate as a big eV and it cost a blood fortune for what is standard as a ice car.  Two of us travelling to gleneagles was a struggle and the kona isn't considered small on eV standards.  My fiesta is on its last legs so probably gonna buy a passat for the same reasons you've stated.


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Just for a point on leafs they are massive inside and really nice to drive because they are designed as EV from the floor up rather than a normal car ripped out with EV shoved in
		
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A very valid point but it is still £21500 which is nearly double what I look to spend on a car that, for the most part, commutes me to work and back and does the ugly jobs at the weekend like tip runs etc. If there were a similar sized car to the Octabia on the market that did the 250 mile range and cost £10000 with about 30k on the clock then I would have to conisder it. Sadly, nothing is even close.


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2022)

Something I've noticed recently is that some of these bigger EVs are extraordinarily wide compared to similar ICE cars...
Is this to fit the battery in? Keeping it low to aid stability thereby needing the increased width..


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## road2ruin (Nov 22, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Something I've noticed recently is that some of these bigger EVs are extraordinarily wide compared to similar ICE cars...
Is this to fit the battery in? Keeping it low to aid stability thereby needing the increased width..
		
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I must admit that the width is the main thing I've found since I got the Hyundai after the Audi Estate I had beforehand. It'd definitely tighter in car park spaces!!!


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## GB72 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			No no I get it.  I was just talking about the range issues that many people use as an excuse when it's easily fixed.  
The car size vs price is probably the best argument with eV owners.  My mate as a big eV and it cost a blood fortune for what is standard as a ice car.  Two of us travelling to gleneagles was a struggle and the kona isn't considered small on eV standards.  My fiesta is on its last legs so probably gonna buy a passat for the same reasons you've stated.
		
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On the range issue, bearing in mind I would be looking at the second hand market, how can you tell if the batteries are still up to standard and have been treated correctly. I assume that 250 mile range can drop off quite dramatically as the batteries get older or if they are not subject to a decent charging regime.


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I must admit that the width is the main thing I've found since I got the Hyundai after the Audi Estate I had beforehand. It'd definitely tighter in car park spaces!!!
		
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I was going down a narrowish road the other day and this hulking great EV was coming the other way...
Normally it's, maybe, an ease off the gas but this was a full blown brake and crawl job....


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## banjofred (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			So you wouldn't have to stop.  If you're there for Xmas you could charge with the power cable through normal electrics and wouldn't need to stop on the way home either.
You'd still arrive with 50 miles in the tank so if charging was an issue at your dad's house then you need to find 200 miles of juice from somewhere.  That route is littered with rapid chargers.   So, if you can't charge at the house using a normal plug then how does a 30 minute wait sound at a Morrisons? or Mcdonalds?.  Is it worth the £40+ you'll save on petrol/diesel?
That's what your journey would look like
Or two 15 minute stops of course whilst you take a piss on each leg🤷‍♂️.
(leg of the journey not your actual leg)
		
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I've no idea what I'm talking about, but wasn't there a YouTube I saw that showed that if you stop at quick charge places you don't save money by using electric? Might have saw it on this thread come to think of it....


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## Robster59 (Nov 22, 2022)

My missus has just changed her car, and we have gone for a second hand ICE as electric was outside our budget.  For her, an electric would probably have been adequate but at the moment it was just not possible.  We even looked at a full hybrid, but if you don't do enough mileage on them, they don't charge up the batteries and you finish up just running on petrol anyway (as has happened to a friend of mine).  
For me, as I have put on here before, I have a PHEV (Skoda Superb IV).  I am getting a home charger put in at the end of the month, and that I am happy to say, is funded by my company.  For tax reasons, more of our sales team are going to full electric (it wasn't available when I got my car 18 months ago).  As their error is regional, they can get around on that.  My area is national, so I do drive long distances and adding half an hour into a journey time does eat into my day.  
Still, at least with full electric vehicles, you have fast charging.  My car takes 4 hours to fully charge for 30 miles, so stopping en route is definitely not a luxury I can afford.  So my option is to charge the car when stop overnight.  The only issue with that is that the last four times I have been away, none of the chargers at any of the hotels were working, and nobody nearby I could go to.  So from when I set off, to when I got back home, I couldn't charge the car.  Thankfully, there are still lots of petrol stations I can use.  
The fact is that whilst the charging system is getting better, there are still gaps in the system, and especially when away from mainstream routes.  It will get better I am sure, but there is still a lot of work to do.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

GB72 said:



			On the range issue, bearing in mind I would be looking at the second hand market, how can you tell if the batteries are still up to standard and have been treated correctly. I assume that 250 mile range can drop off quite dramatically as the batteries get older or if they are not subject to a decent charging regime.
		
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It's hard to abuse the battery as the computer won't let anything happen outside the norm. As they get older they have been said to reduce but that was based on old tech.  My dad's enero still holds 300 miles after 80,000 miles of charging.  I'm not a battery expert so I don't know if its the amount of charging or the age of the battery that makes it deteriorate.  As for the second hand market.  When looking recently it appears that manufacturers sell you the car and you can rent or sell you the battery.  Some classified ads tell you the monthly rental charge in the small print.   Probably isn't cheap


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

banjofred said:



			I've no idea what I'm talking about, but wasn't there a YouTube I saw that showed that if you stop at quick charge places you don't save money by using electric? Might have saw it on this thread come to think of it.... 





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That's correct.  Rapid charging isn't cheap and just under the price of fuel.  But most people wouldn't charge to full
When I drove to gleneagles i was coming up 50 miles short.  That ended up being 80 as my mates in the car in front where driving a little faster than the posted speed limit.  I chucked 100 miles charge in and charged for free (from empty to full) at gleneagles.   So I only paid fuel prices for just over a 100 miles worth of a 630 mile round trip. I can live with that.
Charging on the go is very rare when you have a 300 mile range.  If you have to rely on charge points away from home then owning an eV would be a nightmare.   Especially when there's no financial gain


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			It's hard to abuse the battery as the computer won't let anything happen outside the norm. As they get older they have been said to reduce but that was based on old tech.  My dad's enero still holds 300 miles after 80,000 miles of charging.  I'm not a battery expert so I don't know if its the amount of charging or the age of the battery that makes it deteriorate.  As for the second hand market.  When looking recently it appears that manufacturers sell you the car and you can rent or sell you the battery.  Some classified ads tell you the monthly rental charge in the small print.   Probably isn't cheap
		
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The rent battery was only the old leaf and Zoe wasn't it? However it was a great idea tbh because any issues you could get the battery replaced or whatever no big fee


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The rent battery was only the old leaf and Zoe wasn't it? However it was a great idea tbh because any issues you could get the battery replaced or whatever no big fee
		
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Yeh. I was looking as t the zoe but I just had visons of my mates at work seeing me pull up in it.   😣


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## Smiffy (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			So you wouldn't have to stop.  If you're there for Xmas you could charge with the power cable through normal electrics and wouldn't need to stop on the way home either.
You'd still arrive with 50 miles in the tank so if charging was an issue at your dad's house then you need to find 200 miles of juice from somewhere.  That route is littered with rapid chargers.   So, if you can't charge at the house using a normal plug then how does a 30 minute wait sound at a Morrisons? or Mcdonalds?.  Is it worth the £40+ you'll save on petrol/diesel?
That's what your journey would look like
Or two 15 minute stops of course whilst you take a piss on each leg🤷‍♂️.
(leg of the journey not your actual leg)
		
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If we lived in a perfect world I'd agree with you, but of course we don't. You are assuming exactly 300 miles is achievable, but at motorway speeds or close to it, they're not.
My e208 has a quoted range of 220 miles. Would I take on a 200 mile trip and expect 20 miles left in the car??? Not a chance. I can guarantee that I'd conk out before I got there if I travelled at anything near 70mph. I might make it if I kept to 30 without using the heater and avoided overtaking anyone. But that's not a "journey"... it would be a right pain in the arse


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			If we lived in a perfect world I'd agree with you, but of course we don't. You are assuming exactly 300 miles is achievable, but at motorway speeds or close to it, they're not.
My e208 has a quoted range of 220 miles. Would I take on a 200 mile trip and expect 20 miles left in the car??? Not a chance. I can guarantee that I'd conk out before I got there if I travelled at anything near 70mph. I might make it if I kept to 30 without using the heater and avoided overtaking anyone. But that's not a "journey"... it would be a right pain in the arse
		
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But you have a lowish range car.  It obviously still has many benefits so why wouldn't you take the car and simply stop for 10 minutes for a piss and a 20/25 mile top up for redundancy and piece of mind?
What I don't understand is the reluctance to stop for 10 minutes on a 3 hour trip.   I personally need piss in that time anyway.   I see it as a very small inconvenience for such good gain.
If you take your petrol car you are literally paying £25 in additional fuel to save 10 minutes, 5 of which you needed to stop for anyway.
If you was stopping for a piss and a stranger said "stand there for 5 minutes and I'll give you £25" would you?  I would 💷😁😜


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			So you wouldn't have to stop.  If you're there for Xmas you could charge with the power cable through normal electrics and wouldn't need to stop on the way home either.
You'd still arrive with 50 miles in the tank so if charging was an issue at your dad's house then you need to find 200 miles of juice from somewhere.  That route is littered with rapid chargers.   So, if you can't charge at the house using a normal plug then how does a 30 minute wait sound at a Morrisons? or Mcdonalds?.  Is it worth the £40+ you'll save on petrol/diesel?
That's what your journey would look like
Or two 15 minute stops of course whilst you take a piss on each leg🤷‍♂️.
(leg of the journey not your actual leg)
		
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Did you say earlier that you have 300 mile range on your EV? If as stated previously on this thread the range can drop by 20% in winter then he might have a problem with a 300 mile range EV making that 250 mile drive at Xmas. A 20% drop in range leaves 240 mile range which almost certainly isn't going to get him there without stopping, especially if there are motorway/dual carriageway stretches involved in the journey.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Did you say earlier that you have 300 mile range on your EV? If as stated previously on this thread the range can drop by 20% in winter then he might have a problem with a 300 mile range EV making that 250 mile drive at Xmas. A 20% drop in range leaves 240 mile range which almost certainly isn't going to get him there without stopping, especially if there are motorway/dual carriageway stretches involved in the journey.
		
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Two scenarios :
260 range at a constant 70 will get me about 240 Maybe. It does leave me dangerously close to the limit so a 10 minute stop is what I would do to put some redundancy in the system.

Or, knowing I have this journey I'd use the battery heater thingy (technical term) to get the maximum (300) into the battery.  Or just charge it in my garage as I usually do.   There's also a couple of eco features I need to understand that can apparently make a big difference but stopping for me isn't an issue

The point that leaves me so baffled is this journey is a once a year journey.  Are you putting a block on the advantage of driving an eV for the other 364 days of the year because of a ten minute stop over a 4 hour trip?   To me its like saying I don't want ten bars of gold because I'll have to carry them to the bank.  They're too heavy

It's a ten minute stop!!!!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Two scenarios :
260 range at a constant 70 will get me about 240 Maybe. It does leave me dangerously close to the limit so a 10 minute stop is what I would do to put some redundancy in the system. 

Or, knowing I have this journey I'd use the battery heater to get the maximum (300) into the battery.  Or just charge it in my garage.

The point that leaves me so baffled is tgis journey is a once a year journey.  *Are you putting a block on the advantage of driving an eV for the other 364 days of the year because of a ten minute stop over a 4 hour trip?*   Me me its like saying I don't want ten bars of golf because I'll have to carry them to the bank.  They're too heavy
		
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I'm not, I was just asking the question. 

The things that are putting a block on me buying an EV right now are that the two cars in our household, one petrol and one diesel, have both got around 70k miles on them and will probably last another 10 years so no need to replace them. On top of that is the cost of buying an EV and the fact that we tow a caravan at least a dozen times a year and sometimes double that, and Mrs Colch tows a trailer to her work events which is an additional dozen occasions each year minimum. The range of an EV while towing wouldn't be anywhere near to the range that we would require for us to get one.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not, I was just asking the question.

The things that are putting a block on me buying an EV right now are that the two cars in our household, one petrol and one diesel, have both got around 70k miles on them and will probably last another 10 years so no need to replace them. On top of that is the cost of buying an EV and the fact that we tow a caravan at least a dozen times a year and sometimes double that, and Mrs Colch tows a trailer to her work events which is an additional dozen occasions each year minimum. The range of an EV while towing wouldn't be anywhere near to the range that we would require for us to get one.
		
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I have no experience towing so I have no input there.  I hear its not very good at all.
I am in the same boat as you.  My house has one ev and one ice.   The ev is my wife's company car (even though shes based from home). I want the second car to be ev too but I'm priced out the market.   If I had 30k to spend on a car or if I could afford the finance I would absolutely go ev.  But 10k is my limit at best.  At the moment that budget can't get me a decent ev.  I'm currently looking at a vw passat but I may buy a used plug in hybrid.  30 mile range would still be very beneficial for our second car


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## DaveR (Nov 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Does anyone other than the poster see stopping for 30/40 minutes over a 7/8 hour drive as a barrier?
It's doesn't have to be one stop
1 x 40 minutes
2 x 20 minutes
3 x 10 minutes

OVER A SEVEN HOUR DRIVE!!!
		
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Yes you are right, I can't imagine anyone would drive 7 hours without a break. The issue I have is that on my budget I would be looking at a 2nd hand (or VERY cheap) new EV and most of those have a quoted range of around 200ish miles. Scale that down for motorway driving (I do several long trips a year) and you are then looking at 150 miles or less between stops. If I do a long drive I will typically break the back of the journey before the 1st stop and any subsequent breaks tend to be for a pee so only quick stops. I certainly wouldn't want them to become 45-60 minute breaks to recharge. As much as I would like to go EV it doesn't suit my needs at present.


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## hovis (Nov 22, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Yes you are right, I can't imagine anyone would drive 7 hours without a break. The issue I have is that on my budget I would be looking at a 2nd hand (or VERY cheap) new EV and most of those have a quoted range of around 200ish miles. Scale that down for motorway driving (I do several long trips a year) and you are then looking at 150 miles or less between stops. If I do a long drive I will typically break the back of the journey before the 1st stop and any subsequent breaks tend to be for a pee so only quick stops. I certainly wouldn't want them to become 45-60 minute breaks to recharge. As much as I would like to go EV it doesn't suit my needs at present.
		
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I get it.  I can only imagine how much of a ball ache it would be if I only had 200 mile range.  I hardly ever need to charge on the go but if I had only had 200 mile range it would be all the time. 

My boss has a 200 mile range car and they manage most of the time and save a lot on fuel. However, they rely heavily on their ice car for bigger journeys.  They go from the Midlands to Cornwall frequently so the eV just isn't practical enough.  He has made the journey a few times with 2 hours worth of stops


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2022)

…anyway…and as I suggested - I suspect that in 30yrs time, maybe sooner, all this argument will be irrelevant and redundant as we’ll own an EV for local and short distance, and hire an EV for longer distances, changing EVs part way as necessary according to the length of journey being undertaken.  

Ownership of cars for long distance driving will become a thing of the past - oh how the transition will upset the petrol heads and ’big fancy powerful’ car owners.


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## Slime (Nov 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…anyway…and as I suggested - I suspect that in 30yrs time, maybe sooner, all this argument will be irrelevant and redundant as we’ll own an EV for local and short distance, and hire an EV for longer distances, changing EVs part way as necessary according to the length of journey being undertaken. 

Ownership of cars for long distance driving will become a thing of the past - oh how the transition will upset the petrol heads and *’big fancy powerful’ car owners*.
		
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It sounds like someone is slightly envious of those lucky enough to own a 'big, fancy, powerful' car.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2022)

Slime said:



			It sounds like someone is slightly envious of those lucky enough to own a 'big, fancy, powerful' car.
		
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Au contraire…I think quite otherwise…and if I wanted one I could afford one…but I don’t.

However time will make such cars redundant and eventually extinct


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## Slime (Nov 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Au contraire…I think quite otherwise…and if I wanted one I could afford one…but I don’t.

However *time will make such cars redundant and eventually extinct*

Click to expand...

Not in our lifetimes.


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## D-S (Nov 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…anyway…and as I suggested - I suspect that in 30yrs time, maybe sooner, all this argument will be irrelevant and redundant as we’ll own an EV for local and short distance, and hire an EV for longer distances, changing EVs part way as necessary according to the length of journey being undertaken. 

Ownership of cars for long distance driving will become a thing of the past - oh how the transition will upset the petrol heads and ’big fancy powerful’ car owners.
		
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I think in 30yrs time driverless cars will be a significant factor and ownership will be far less common.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2022)

hovis said:



			Does anyone other than the poster see stopping for 30/40 minutes over a 7/8 hour drive as a barrier?
It's doesn't have to be one stop
1 x 40 minutes
2 x 20 minutes
3 x 10 minutes

OVER A SEVEN HOUR DRIVE!!!
		
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But that isn't 40 minutes is it?  That adds almost 2 hours to your journey.  I will have breaks on my long journey, but nothing that adds up to that time.  If I have a seven hour journey ahead, I really don't want to add a further 2 hours to it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 23, 2022)

D-S said:



			I think in 30yrs time driverless cars will be a significant factor and ownership will be far less common.
		
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Tech people keep quoting driverless cars, I am not meaning you in this, but do consumers want them? I've not met anyone yet who fancies it. We are talking a huge leap to get everyone into electric and then another huge leap to driverless. I don't see an appetite for driverless cars.

In terms of less ownership, car clubs and similar have also been talked about for years, and do exist. I can see how they will work in a busy city but outside of that, no thanks again. A nice idea but over the whole country, I'm not seeing it.

I'm still waiting for the Tomorrows World, flying car


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## hovis (Nov 23, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			But that isn't 40 minutes is it?  That adds almost 2 hours to your journey.  I will have breaks on my long journey, but nothing that adds up to that time.  If I have a seven hour journey ahead, I really don't want to add a further 2 hours to it.
		
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How is it two hours?  You are going to be 200 miles short of your 500 mile journey.  You need to find 200 miles of electric.  That's one stop of 40 minutes.  Or the other shorter options


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## SteveW86 (Nov 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Au contraire…I think quite otherwise…and if I wanted one I could afford one…but I don’t.

*However time will make such cars redundant and eventually extinct*

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Isnt that an obvious comment, as with time, the people who owned these cars and had the emotional attachment to the ICE car will no longer be with us. I think its natural that younger people coming through will have less attachment to ICE.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2022)

hovis said:



			How is it two hours?  You are going to be 200 miles short of your 500 mile journey.  You need to find 200 miles of electric.  That's one stop of 40 minutes.  Or the other shorter options
		
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I was adding all of them together.  My misunderstanding, I didn't realise you were providing them as separate options.


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## D-S (Nov 23, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tech people keep quoting driverless cars, I am not meaning you in this, but do consumers want them? I've not met anyone yet who fancies it. We are talking a huge leap to get everyone into electric and then another huge leap to driverless. I don't see an appetite for driverless cars.

In terms of less ownership, car clubs and similar have also been talked about for years, and do exist. I can see how they will work in a busy city but outside of that, no thanks again. A nice idea but over the whole country, I'm not seeing it.

I'm still waiting for the Tomorrows World, flying car 

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30 years is a long time in tech.
 Also if they were widely available today I would certainly be happy to summon one to pick me up, take me to where I want and take me home. Who needs to own a pile of metal, service it, have to drive it (and/or learn how to do so), have somewhere to park it etc. etc. - most cars are only driven for a small fraction of any day. Especially as if they are the norm, accidents should be fewer as would be traffic jams.
If I were rich enough to have a driver (s) on permanent call I’d jump at it today but if these were commonplace this would be the nearest I could get to that - bring it on.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 23, 2022)

D-S said:



			30 years is a long time in tech.
Also if they were widely available today I would certainly be happy to summon one to pick me up, take me to where I want and take me home. Who needs to own a pile of metal, service it, have to drive it (and/or learn how to do so), have somewhere to park it etc. etc. - most cars are only driven for a small fraction of any day. Especially as if they are the norm, accidents should be fewer as would be traffic jams.
If I were rich enough to have a driver (s) on permanent call I’d jump at it today but if these were commonplace this would be the nearest I could get to that - bring it on.
		
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This is why I never understand people with money get done for drink driving ie footballers when if they can't trust themsleves they have the money to employ a driver

Always been of the opinion young footballers should employee a minder who drives them and looks after them in clubs keeps the trouble makers away from them.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			This is why I never understand people with money get done for drink driving ie footballers when if they can't trust themsleves they have the money to employ a driver

Always been of the opinion young footballers should employee a minder who drives them and looks after them in clubs keeps the trouble makers away from them.
		
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You still see drivers ( morons) with very expensive cars still with a phone to their ears.
Even the most basic cars have Bluetooth now .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2022)

D-S said:



			30 years is a long time in tech.
Also if they were widely available today I would certainly be happy to summon one to pick me up, take me to where I want and take me home. Who needs to own a pile of metal, service it, have to drive it (and/or learn how to do so), have somewhere to park it etc. etc. - most cars are only driven for a small fraction of any day. Especially as if they are the norm, accidents should be fewer as would be traffic jams.
If I were rich enough to have a driver (s) on permanent call I’d jump at it today but if these were commonplace this would be the nearest I could get to that - bring it on.
		
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…plus even if we are not driverless and even if the range of EVs remains limited to not much more than it currently is…my hunch is that we might still own a relatively inexpensive small EV, but for longer runs we don’t use our own but instead hire and change ‘larger’ EVs ‘half way’.  Just a hunch.


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## Pants (Nov 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…plus even if we are not driverless and even if the range of EVs remains limited to not much more than it currently is…my hunch is that we might still own a relatively inexpensive small EV, but for longer runs we don’t use our own but instead hire and change ‘larger’ EVs ‘half way’.  Just a hunch.
		
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Yeh.  Nothing changes over the centuries.  Riding from London to York, changing horses half way ...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

Rightly or wrongly I can see a u turn on 2030

Hunt said yesterday we as a nation need to reduce our usage by x % by 2030 (think it was 15%) don't see how we can reduce whilst switching to EV


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			but for longer runs we don’t use our own but instead hire and change ‘larger’ EVs ‘half way’.  Just a hunch.
		
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I'm curious to know in miles what you regard as a ''longer run''?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Rightly or wrongly I can see a u turn on 2030

Hunt said yesterday we as a nation need to reduce our usage by x % by 2030 (think it was 15%) don't see how we can reduce whilst switching to EV
		
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2030 was never going to happen imo.
The infrastructure just isn’t there yet.
The way things are now investment will slow down for a couple of years.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm curious to know in miles what you regard as a ''longer run''?
		
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Anything that you need to stop twice to recharge imo.


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## DaveR (Nov 24, 2022)

Driverless cars provide so many opportunities. London businessman has meeting in Glasgow, puts his kids to bed then hops into his autonomous car. Folds seat back, falls asleep and wakes up in Glasgow. Quick shower in the office, job done. No need for a hotel or flight.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Driverless cars provide so many opportunities. London businessman has meeting in Glasgow, puts his kids to bed then hops into his autonomous car. Folds seat back, falls asleep and wakes up in Glasgow. Quick shower in the office, job done. No need for a hotel or flight.
		
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Sounds great .
But how do you charge the car given the range.

Seen on the news solar power microwaved back to earth via satellites.
so assume if you park in a bay and battery is charged like a wireless mobile phone .
Sounds very tomorrow’s world.


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## D-S (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds great .
But how do you charge the car given the range.

Seen on the news solar power microwaved back to earth via satellites.
so assume if you park in a bay and battery is charged like a wireless mobile phone .
Sounds very tomorrow’s world.
		
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You just swap cars in a convenient stopping place. Get out of one and step into another, the interchangeability of driverless cars is one of their great appeals.


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## DaveR (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds great .
But how do you charge the car given the range.

Seen on the news solar power microwaved back to earth via satellites.
so assume if you park in a bay and battery is charged like a wireless mobile phone .
Sounds very tomorrow’s world.
		
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Fingers crossed I would hope that battery technology improves by the time we get to that point. Keep reading about 500 mile ranges etc being close now.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

D-S said:



			You just swap cars in a convenient stopping place. Get out of one and step into another, the interchangeability of driverless cars is one of their great appeals.
		
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How does that work if said business man is asleep?
I can see lost briefcases/ luggage  all over the place


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Fingers crossed I would hope that battery technology improves by the time we get to that point. Keep reading about 500 mile ranges etc being close now.
		
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EVs are capable of 379 miles today*, 5 years ago that was around 170.
An increase in range of over 200 miles in 5 years.
With the massive investment in battery technology all over the world, I can see that sort of improvement continuing.

*An exaggeration I know.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 24, 2022)

D-S said:



			You just swap cars in a convenient stopping place. Get out of one and step into another, the interchangeability of driverless cars is one of their great appeals.
		
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Or simply swap the battery on route,  no need to disturb a sleeping passenger.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			How does that work if said business man is asleep?
I can see lost briefcases/ luggage  all over the place
		
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Yep that's the flaw in the that one,  so how about swapoing the battery instead.  This can already be done in China and Norway,  I believe.


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## D-S (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			How does that work if said business man is asleep?
I can see lost briefcases/ luggage  all over the place
		
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If he is asleep, then the car just pops into a fast charge station en route (or as Doublebogey 7 says, swaps the battery)  never disturbing the slumber.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 24, 2022)

doublebogey7 said:



			Yep that's the flaw in the that one,  so how about swapoing the battery instead.  This can already be done in China and Norway,  I believe.
		
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Indeed they can, Chinese manufacturer Nio have a battery swap “drive through” type set up. It’s quite expensive I believe as a subscription but the time savings must be massive.

Their cars aren’t bad looking either. Their midsize saloon, the ET7, is going to break down a few barriers when it finally arrives on our shores. Ok, Chinese testing numbers for range etc are… questionable… but even knocking 20-25% off they still offer good numbers.

I watch I’m hope that the UK market looks attractive to them sometime soon.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Indeed they can, Chinese manufacturer Nio have a battery swap “drive through” type set up. It’s quite expensive I believe as a subscription but the time savings must be massive.

Their cars aren’t bad looking either. Their midsize saloon, the ET7, is going to break down a few barriers when it finally arrives on our shores. Ok, Chinese testing numbers for range etc are… questionable… but even knocking 20-25% off they still offer good numbers.

I watch I’m hope that the UK market looks attractive to them sometime soon.
		
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Only issue is the supply of lithium for batteries 

We would need a lot more than we do now


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 24, 2022)

Are car mfrs designing cars so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are car mfrs designing cars so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily?
		
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No, it's anything but easy the way most are designed


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## GreiginFife (Nov 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Only issue is the supply of lithium for batteries

We would need a lot more than we do now
		
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I’m sure that very clever people are working on this right now. 

The advantages of the system are a separate conversation.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are car mfrs designing cars so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily?
		
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This is what Nio and a couple of other manufacturers are working on. A battery that unbolts from beneath the chassis and can be swapped out in under 10 mins with a fresh one. 

The removed battery is then queued in the “battery station” for recharging and reuse probably the next day.


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## DaveR (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are car mfrs designing cars so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily?
		
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Yep, see Greig's response above. Doable but not cheap however once the process is scaled up it may be a good solution.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I’m sure that very clever people are working on this right now.

The advantages of the system are a separate conversation.
		
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Telsa are working on it ,

However it will be easier once the battery tech is changed


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## GreiginFife (Nov 24, 2022)

https://www.nio.com/nio-power

Section on Power Swap in there


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2022)

How many extra battery packs are they going to need?
I can't see it myself.
I think by the time the powers that be allow self driving cars in the UK, the range will have exceeded 500 miles


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2022)

D-S said:



			You just swap cars in a convenient stopping place. Get out of one and step into another, the interchangeability of driverless cars is one of their great appeals.
		
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We are on the same page…👍.

My hunch is probably just the step before driverless, but the model is essentially the same.

I have to drive 400 miles.  I hire a fully charged hire car and drive to a changeover point within range, get out and either take a short break or simply straightaway get into another fully charged car to complete my journey or to drive to the next changeover point.  Meanwhile my Mrs has our own little EV to do whatever she needs to do locally.  As a result we need only own one car, thereby reducing local congestion and our ownership costs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 24, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			This is what Nio and a couple of other manufacturers are working on. A battery that unbolts from beneath the chassis and can be swapped out in under 10 mins with a fresh one.

The removed battery is then queued in the “battery station” for recharging and reuse probably the next day.
		
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How do they get around the issue of someone being left with an old battery with reduced range? I could buy a new car, drive a long stretch, change battery and be given one that has done 100k already. Meanwhile my lovely new battery goes elsewhere. My 300 mile range has suddenly become 150 miles. Do we constantly keep changing batteries?


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## GreiginFife (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do they get around the issue of someone being left with an old battery with reduced range? I could buy a new car, drive a long stretch, change battery and be given one that has done 100k already. Meanwhile my lovely new battery goes elsewhere. My 300 mile range has suddenly become 150 miles. Do we constantly keep changing batteries?
		
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Well, I am not involved in the project, but I would assume that a level of quality control and acceptable usage parameter testing would be built in to the process. So once batteries are removed they are capacity tested and either accepted or rejected for replacement at that point. Again though, that's an assumption based on a) good practice in project delivery and b) common sense.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do they get around the issue of someone being left with an old battery with reduced range? I could buy a new car, drive a long stretch, change battery and be given one that has done 100k already. Meanwhile my lovely new battery goes elsewhere. My 300 mile range has suddenly become 150 miles. Do we constantly keep changing batteries?
		
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The security aspect may be interesting; given the lengths that the nefarious workshy will go to in order to take catalytic converters from cars (including leaving a neighbour with a bleed on the brain), and liberating batteries from temporary traffic lights, how long before they try their luck with these?


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The security aspect may be interesting; given the lengths that the nefarious workshy will go to in order to take catalytic converters from cars (including leaving a neighbour with a bleed on the brain), and liberating batteries from temporary traffic lights, how long before they try their luck with these?
		
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Perhaps something like the alloy nut / key being required to unlock? Another thing for the bods to look at and factor in.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

D-S said:



			If he is asleep, then the car just pops into a fast charge station en route (or as Doublebogey 7 says, swaps the battery)  never disturbing the slumber.
		
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I think a battery swop would wake most people up!
But it’s still a great idea.
How long before it’s like an F1 pit stop = 2.9 seconds.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			This is what Nio and a couple of other manufacturers are working on. A battery that unbolts from beneath the chassis and can be swapped out in under 10 mins with a fresh one.

The removed battery is then queued in the “battery station” for recharging and reuse probably the next day.
		
Click to expand...

Yes seen this on YouTube looks very good.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Yep, see Greig's response above. Doable but not cheap however once the process is scaled up it may be a good solution.
		
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Would need to be the same across all manufacturers to make sense or charging stations would need to keep lots from each oem..


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do they get around the issue of someone being left with an old battery with reduced range? I could buy a new car, drive a long stretch, change battery and be given one that has done 100k already. Meanwhile my lovely new battery goes elsewhere. My 300 mile range has suddenly become 150 miles. Do we constantly keep changing batteries?
		
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Might be like buying a bare drill at Screwfix.
You just buy the drill not the battery.
So you only lease the battery power not the battery unit.
Just a thought.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The security aspect may be interesting; given the lengths that the nefarious workshy will go to in order to take catalytic converters from cars (including leaving a neighbour with a bleed on the brain), and liberating batteries from temporary traffic lights, how long before they try their luck with these?
		
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If they are bolted from under the car I can’t see anyone stealing a very heavy battery in the street.
You would need the correct pit and tools.
Maybe an alarm system that electrocutes thieves if not taken off in correct sequence.
I know that’s illegal atm.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Might be like buying a bare drill at Screwfix.
You just buy the drill not the battery.
So you only lease the battery power not the battery unit.
Just a thought.
		
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People have touted the lease idea for a while. It might work but it will need a change of thinking from the consumer and a major ramp up in infrastructure to have these change stations, manned, all over. I'm not going to hold my breath on that front.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			If they are bolted from under the car I can’t see anyone stealing a very heavy battery in the street.
You would need the correct pit and tools.
Maybe an alarm system that electrocutes thieves if not taken off in correct sequence.
I know that’s illegal atm.

Click to expand...

In the street possibly/probably not; but hooking it up or dragging it onto a tilt and slide and doing the job elsewhere would be distinct possibilities from what I’ve seen on the past.

A favourite with solo motorcycles is two short bits of scaffold pole and two blokes, one through each wheel and into the back of a van. Gone in 10 seconds. 

It depends how attractive the value of the batteries make the risk. If there is technology that allows batteries to be made without the precious metals then in ceases to be an issue.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			People have touted the lease idea for a while. It might work but it will need a change of thinking from the consumer and a major ramp up in infrastructure to have these change stations, manned, all over. I'm not going to hold my breath on that front.
		
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I agree we’re just not ready.
Don’t think we will be for a very long time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree we’re just not ready.
Don’t think we will be for a very long time.
		
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My Mrs works on a charity helpline.  Before lockdown the helpline team were all ‘on-site’ in the charities central London offices.  It had always been considered too difficult and too problematical to WFH; that the helpline team would struggle.  

Within a few days of the offices closing and my wife being at home a temporary clunky stop-gap solution was up and the helpline was running with the team all WFH.  Within a few months with properly set up laptops and support processes in place the clunkiness was gone.  The team can now choose to WFH; work hybrid, or work in office.  The service delivered from home and office and the customer experience are identical.

When needs must and the technology exists, barriers to making something new and difficult work can disappear like snow off a dyke.


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## cliveb (Nov 24, 2022)

There are two fundamental issues with battery swapping:
1. All the manufacturers would have to agree on a standard battery harness. The Nio
2. It makes structural sense to incorporate the batteries into the chassis design. Having a universal harness for batteries restricts the designers, and reduces the potential efficiency of the vehicle.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			In the street possibly/probably not; but hooking it up or dragging it onto a tilt and slide and doing the job elsewhere would be distinct possibilities from what I’ve seen on the past.

A favourite with solo motorcycles is two short bits of scaffold pole and two blokes, one through each wheel and into the back of a van. Gone in 10 seconds.

It depends how attractive the value of the batteries make the risk. If there is technology that allows batteries to be made without the precious metals then in ceases to be an issue.
		
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They are on top of it already. Telsa house batteries have a GPS tracker in them and Tesla can locate them at anytime. A warehouse was broken into and Tesla gave the police the address to where they were 

The batteries become dead paperweights 

They need codes to work .. mine will only work with my gateway and only Tesla can unlock it

No where takes lithium etc for scrap , and they are also very dangerous as they don't turn off they are full of volts to kill people.

Plus they weigh a blooming ton


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## pauljames87 (Nov 24, 2022)

cliveb said:



			There are two fundamental issues with battery swapping:
1. All the manufacturers would have to agree on a standard battery harness. The Nio
2. It makes structural sense to incorporate the batteries into the chassis design. Having a universal harness for batteries restricts the designers, and reduces the potential efficiency of the vehicle.
		
Click to expand...

This is what apple have said about type c usb. They have to use it for cables soon and it will stop innovation 

Are we saying type c usb is the best we can do for life? Might save space to use something else and so on


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs works on a charity helpline.  Before lockdown the helpline team were all ‘on-site’ in the charities central London offices.  It had always been considered too difficult and too problematical to WFH; that the helpline team would struggle. 

Within a few days of the offices closing and my wife being at home a temporary clunky stop-gap solution was up and the helpline was running with the team all WFH.  Within a few months with properly set up laptops and support processes in place the clunkiness was gone.  The team can now choose to WFH; work hybrid, or work in office.  The service delivered from home and office and the customer experience are identical.

When needs must and the technology exists, barriers to making something new and difficult work can disappear like snow off a dyke.
		
Click to expand...

That’s fair enough.
But we’re not talking moving a few offices to WFH.
We’re talking major building of charging points and battery exchanges.
It will come ,but it’s nowhere near imo.


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## hovis (Nov 24, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are car mfrs designing cars so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily?
		
Click to expand...

You don't own the battery, you pay a subscription.  So if you get a duff one, you report it and swap it out

Go to 6 minutes


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			The removed battery is then queued in the “battery station” for recharging and reuse probably the next day.
		
Click to expand...

How many battery stations are there going to be, how many batteries are they going to have each and where are all these batteries coming from, bearing in mind the problems we are having making enough of them today?



clubchamp98 said:



			Anything that you need to stop twice to recharge imo.
		
Click to expand...

There are currently 6 manufacturers that make EVs that have a range of over 300 miles, 379 being the longest.
That's 900 miles if you stop twice.
I agree, that's a long run, about 18 hours of driving or London to Edinburgh and back


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## GreiginFife (Nov 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How many battery stations are there going to be, how many batteries are they going to have each and where are all these batteries coming from, bearing in mind the problems we are having making enough of them today?
		
Click to expand...

As I said above, I am not part of the project so do not know other than the bits I’ve read. 

The system appears to work at the moment and I am sure that there are a number of very smart people working on it. 

It may not be a completely solve all solution but it may be viable enough to be workable for some.


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## DaveR (Nov 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How many battery stations are there going to be, how many batteries are they going to have each and where are all these batteries coming from, bearing in mind the problems we are having making enough of them today?



There are currently 6 manufacturers that make EVs that have a range of over 300 miles, 379 being the longest.
That's 900 miles if you stop twice.
I agree, that's a long run, about 18 hours of driving or London to Edinburgh and back
		
Click to expand...

Watch this from 12:10 Bob, interesting comments about the range


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Watch this from 12:10 Bob, interesting comments about the range  






Click to expand...

What do you expect from mini-bus with the aerodynamics of a potato.
Ever since I passed my test in 1977, car manufacturers have been exaggerating their mpg figures so nothing new here.

If I was driving from London to Edinburgh, I would hire something designed as a cruiser like a Tesla model 3 long range which has a real world range of over 300 miles.

All I'm saying is that things have progressed more than some are aware, especially those who think nothing much has changed in the last 5 years.
I'm not here to convince everyone to swap to EVs, I'm just trying to provide some up to date info so that when you want to change your car, you base the decision on today's facts and not on the drivel spouted on some car show from 2011


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## chellie (Nov 25, 2022)

Any people we know off that have electric cars either have them through work or their own business. Personally think the cost of them is too much for the ordinary person given the cost of everything else.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 25, 2022)

We have a Hybrid merc just over 12months old. Mrs C was coming out of work Tuesday evening and car wouldn't start. AA sent out a contractor to try and get her goin but no joy. Had to leave it there til AA could retreive it and take it to the Merc dealership. 

Update no car and they dont know what is wrong with it. Both mechanics who looked at it shook their heads trying to fix it.

I couldnt rely on a fully electric motor. I certainly wouldnt buy a 2nd hand one neither.

Shes currently stuck with no veichle.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			We have a Hybrid merc just over 12months old. Mrs C was coming out of work Tuesday evening and car wouldn't start. AA sent out a contractor to try and get her goin but no joy. Had to leave it there til AA could retreive it and take it to the Merc dealership.

Update no car and they dont know what is wrong with it. Both mechanics who looked at it shook their heads trying to fix it.

I couldnt rely on a fully electric motor. I certainly wouldnt buy a 2nd hand one neither.

Shes currently stuck with no veichle.
		
Click to expand...

Ironically there is less to go wrong with a full EV than a hybrid.


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## DaveR (Nov 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			What do you expect from mini-bus with the aerodynamics of a potato.
Ever since I passed my test in 1977, car manufacturers have been exaggerating their mpg figures so nothing new here.

If I was driving from London to Edinburgh, I would hire something designed as a cruiser like a Tesla model 3 long range which has a real world range of over 300 miles.

All I'm saying is that things have progressed more than some are aware, especially those who think nothing much has changed in the last 5 years.
I'm not here to convince everyone to swap to EVs, I'm just trying to provide some up to date info so that when you want to change your car, you base the decision on today's facts and not on the drivel spouted on some car show from 2011
		
Click to expand...

Exaggerating the figures? 250 miles down to 115 😂😂😂


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## Stuart_C (Nov 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ironically there is less to go wrong with a full EV than a hybrid.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that is actually correct, Where did you read that?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm not sure that is actually correct, Where did you read that?
		
Click to expand...

An EV has less moving parts than a ICE engine 

With a hybrid you have the battery side and the ice side .. so each can fail 

An EV only has one side to fail and less parts to fail


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## Stuart_C (Nov 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			An EV has less moving parts than a ICE engine

With a hybrid you have the battery side and the ice side .. so each can fail

An EV only has one side to fail and less parts to fail
		
Click to expand...

If only it was that simple.

I will bow down to your extensive knowledge on EV motors.


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## road2ruin (Nov 25, 2022)

I know we all like to get hung up on range however having come from powerful cars I drive my EV as I’ve done the rest of my motors and don’t get and eek out the extra miles. What I really enjoy is the instant power delivery away from lights etc. There’s not an awful lot that I can’t be off the lights. Granted a few hundred yards up the road they’ll pass me but I’ve scared a few friends who haven’t been prepared for sports mode from a standing start!!


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Exaggerating the figures? 250 miles down to 115 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

And apparently the 2020 US election was stolen.
Don't believe everything you see on the internet


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			If only it was that simple.
		
Click to expand...

It is that simple.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I know we all like to get hung up on range however having come from powerful cars I drive my EV as I’ve done the rest of my motors and don’t get and eek out the extra miles. What I really enjoy is the instant power delivery away from lights etc. There’s not an awful lot that I can’t be off the lights. Granted a few hundred yards up the road they’ll pass me but I’ve scared a few friends who haven’t been prepared for sports mode from a standing start!! 

Click to expand...

Same. Also I drive on one of the worst roads In London and when you crawl home you use bugger all electric


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596191764242919424
Interesting


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## DaveR (Nov 25, 2022)

bobmac said:



			And apparently the 2020 US election was stolen.
Don't believe everything you see on the internet
		
Click to expand...

Come on Bob don't be silly, it's a reputable car review channel.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596191764242919424
Interesting
		
Click to expand...

While I'm not disagreeing with him on most of that video clip, no idea on efficiency and I'm sure the cost would be massive, where would the nitrous oxides that he's saying would be produced come from? If you burn hydrogen the waste product is water.


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## bobmac (Nov 26, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Come on Bob don't be silly, it's a reputable car review channel.
		
Click to expand...

Here's a few of his video titles.....
Are Plug-in Hybrids Utterly Pointless?
Synthetic Fuels: A BETTER Alternative To Electric Cars?
What Happens When My CHEAP Leaf DIES?
Project Leaf: Everything I HATE About My Used Electric Car
Are Used Electric Cars A BAD Idea?
You get the idea.

No surprise his other car is a V8 Mustang


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## DaveR (Nov 26, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Here's a few of his video titles.....
Are Plug-in Hybrids Utterly Pointless?
Synthetic Fuels: A BETTER Alternative To Electric Cars?
What Happens When My CHEAP Leaf DIES?
Project Leaf: Everything I HATE About My Used Electric Car
Are Used Electric Cars A BAD Idea?
You get the idea.

No surprise his other car is a V8 Mustang

Click to expand...

You have clearly not watched those videos as he puts forward both sides of the argument before giving a balanced opinion.


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## bobmac (Nov 26, 2022)

DaveR said:



			You have clearly not watched those videos as he puts forward both sides of the argument before giving a balanced opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have watched them and I don't think his opinion is balanced.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			While I'm not disagreeing with him on most of that video clip, no idea on efficiency and I'm sure the cost would be massive, where would the nitrous oxides that he's saying would be produced come from? If you burn hydrogen the waste product is water.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.endsreport.com/article/1723633/scientist-warns-nox-urban-pollution-hydrogen-boilers

Only in cars does it just produce water I believe 

It reminds me of covid when we wanted vaccines to solve the issue .. we wait for it to be developed but the reality is it's still an issue and doesn't cure the situation entirely 

On the subject of efficient heat pumps 

Sunday I run my HVACs all day to test. Well I say all day 03:00-2200 downstairs and 07-00-1800 upstairs 

So out of 5 inside units 2 on most of day .. and both outside units constantly on 

Anyways it used 15kw of electric, was set between 20-22 degree for a lovely comfortable temp.. too hot at 22 had to turn down but kept the kids rooms at 22

It cost £5.10 at the gov cap

At the same cap for gas that's 2.5 hours of central heating 

If I could get instant hot water from a heat pump I'd get one 

If I had a tank I'd get one


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## DaveR (Nov 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.endsreport.com/article/1723633/scientist-warns-nox-urban-pollution-hydrogen-boilers

Only in cars does it just produce water I believe

It reminds me of covid when we wanted vaccines to solve the issue .. we wait for it to be developed but the reality is it's still an issue and doesn't cure the situation entirely

On the subject of efficient heat pumps

Sunday I run my HVACs all day to test. Well I say all day 03:00-2200 downstairs and 07-00-1800 upstairs

So out of 5 inside units 2 on most of day .. and both outside units constantly on

Anyways it used 15kw of electric, was set between 20-22 degree for a lovely comfortable temp.. too hot at 22 had to turn down but kept the kids rooms at 22

It cost £5.10 at the gov cap

At the same cap for gas that's 2.5 hours of central heating

If I could get instant hot water from a heat pump I'd get one

If I had a tank I'd get one
		
Click to expand...

I'm curious to know how much you've spent on all these devices around your house and how long it will take to get the money back.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I'm curious to know how much you've spent on all these devices around your house and how long it will take to get the money back.
		
Click to expand...

Panels and battery 15k .. break even 8-10 years depending on energy prices.

HVAc 6k but dont care about breaking even because it's like getting a new kitchen it improves my quality of life. We now are comfortable in our own home in summer and reduces our gas usage in the winter

Realistically the break even for the HVAc would depend on how much gas I hold off using because I use them to heat the house and that is then factored by how much I save using the cheap electric stored in the battery but because the HVAc is pure comfort rather than a money saver i haven't tracked it

Both combined reduce My carbon footprint and in the summer the HVAc is free to run from the panels

Panels and battery has been a great investment, thus far has saved me £400, however that's based on fact my energy rate is still fixed at 14p day 5p night

When in Feb  it goes to 40p day 15p night (if I go on eco 7 12p on EV but that's another discussion based on selling back) then my savings jump up ..rather than saving 8.5p a kw im then saving 25p a kw and I use 9000 kw a year which is £2200 saving per year (however I'm working on cutting down usage, which is a balance as it prolongs my payback but I also push it up everytime I use the HVAc not the boiler but that's offsetting )


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## DaveR (Nov 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Panels and battery 15k .. break even 8-10 years depending on energy prices.

HVAc 6k but dont care about breaking even because it's like getting a new kitchen it improves my quality of life. We now are comfortable in our own home in summer and reduces our gas usage in the winter

Realistically the break even for the HVAc would depend on how much gas I hold off using because I use them to heat the house and that is then factored by how much I save using the cheap electric stored in the battery but because the HVAc is pure comfort rather than a money saver i haven't tracked it

Both combined reduce My carbon footprint and in the summer the HVAc is free to run from the panels

Panels and battery has been a great investment, thus far has saved me £400, however that's based on fact my energy rate is still fixed at 14p day 5p night

When in Feb  it goes to 40p day 15p night (if I go on eco 7 12p on EV but that's another discussion based on selling back) then my savings jump up ..rather than saving 8.5p a kw im then saving 25p a kw and I use 9000 kw a year which is £2200 saving per year (however I'm working on cutting down usage, which is a balance as it prolongs my payback but I also push it up everytime I use the HVAc not the boiler but that's offsetting )
		
Click to expand...

Interesting. Expensive up front but sounds worthwhile for anyone intending to live in the same house long term 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 26, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Interesting. Expensive up front but sounds worthwhile for anyone intending to live in the same house long term 👍
		
Click to expand...

That is the Crux of the issue, if you plan to move it adds a whole new level of thought into the process

We bought this 3 bed semi, got a loft added so 4 bed. Planned 2 kids but ended up with twins second time around . But the house still suits our needs entirely, it's a nice size. Not too big that when they leave home we would be struggling but big enough for us to live comfortably. So then when this energy crisis hit I finally managed to convince the wife of solar (she didn't want it when we moved, didn't want when the loft was done, but then this) my view is we will pay these prices to the energy companies so why not invest in our house and then when it's paid off it's just cheaper bills

10 year fixed mortgage at a lowish rate . Once fix ends mortgage is done.

Battery could move with us. Panels not worth it, they risk breaking and it's more efficient to get new and sell with the system for next owner

I have a few more projects lined up in my mind but with cost of living I refuse to borrow anymore and will have to save, I want solid wall insulation, lot of work but then the gas gets cut even more .. I'd look at a heat pump but I don't have space for a tank however I could keep the combi just for hot water and heat pump for heating as it would work well.. hybrid system  .. just again a cost ..

The home mortgage luckily is fixed for another 6 years to get eldest to secondary school and then I will sit down and access what is and isn't affordable project wise.

Im 35 so I hope to have another 40 plus years in that house. Slow and steady improvement

#to keep on subject, I will be buying another EV in 2025 to replace the Corsa. Mg by looks but I won't replace the Alhambra, I will keep that until it's not worth keeping. It only does 3000 miles a year the EV does 12,000


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## OnTour (Nov 27, 2022)

Interesting we are still in positive figures with the energy increases. I'm not 100% sold on EV with energy prices being the cheap future driving. SO I took a 3 year lease @ 153 miles a week (8000) 

Figures still stack up in favour of the EV - 2021 difference was £6.72 and with fuel and energy prices ev is cheaper again @ £8.32 per 153 miles (take into account the interest we have on the sold YARIS sport and it losing value over 3 years which it's yet to do  CAP figures shows increase +1k) still a POSITIVE experience but in 2 years it might not be if energy doesn't turn around or I buy a nuclear energy plant for the back garden. 

Still the best drive if you favour motorways over back roads  


free works charger to be replaced in 2022


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

OnTour said:



			Interesting we are still in positive figures with the energy increases. I'm not 100% sold on EV with energy prices being the cheap future driving. SO I took a 3 year lease @ 153 miles a week (8000)

Figures still stack up in favour of the EV - 2021 difference was £6.72 and with fuel and energy prices ev is cheaper again @ £8.32 per 153 miles (take into account the interest we have on the sold YARIS sport and it losing value over 3 years which it's yet to do  CAP figures shows increase +1k) still a POSITIVE experience but in 2 years it might not be if energy doesn't turn around or I buy a nuclear energy plant for the back garden.

Still the best drive if you favour motorways over back roads  


free works charger to be replaced in 2022 

Click to expand...

have you got onto an EV tariff at home?


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2022)

My mate is a car dealer. They have 7 teslas atm and thry have all dropped by near 4k in the first half of the month. As a dealer he says electric cars are a disaster for the motor trade


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Exaggerating the figures? 250 miles down to 115 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

158 miles on one charge in frozen Norway, at 70mph


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## DaveR (Nov 27, 2022)

I've heard recently that all grants for home chargers have stopped and they can now cost around 2 grand, is this true? 😲


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## DaveR (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			158 miles on one charge in frozen Norway, at 70mph







Click to expand...

Excellent, it managed 60% of it's quoted range 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I've heard recently that all grants for home chargers have stopped and they can now cost around 2 grand, is this true? 😲
		
Click to expand...

not this isnt true , home grants may have stopped but the install are from £1000 for some chargers and less for others

its much like the misinformation when the gov grant stopped on evs over a certain price

they simply lowered the price of the EVs to keep the price similar

much as I love bashing the government sometimes the industries just use these grants to inflate the price of the product and once its gone they lower it back down

https://octopus.energy/get-an-ev-ch...6fbqygCo9E_z36ENoQSmOjsozCfTS7bAaAk1nEALw_wcB

from £999 with octopus here

that exact charger I was looking at for £550 and installing myself as I have all the other equipment

https://www.electricpoint.com/ohme-...i40_or3qje5gL4OfcNgd2tNaTaYBxe60aAl9lEALw_wcB

I mean when you factor in an MCB trip, armored cable , the charger itself (more if tethered) you are prob looking at £600-700 and the rest is the fee to have a sparky install it


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Excellent, it managed 60% of it's quoted range 👍
		
Click to expand...

In the worst scenario for EVs but certainly not the 115 Rory quoted.


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			not this isnt true , home grants may have stopped but the install are from £1000 for some chargers and less for others

its much like the misinformation when the gov grant stopped on evs over a certain price

they simply lowered the price of the EVs to keep the price similar

much as I love bashing the government sometimes the industries just use these grants to inflate the price of the product and once its gone they lower it back down

https://octopus.energy/get-an-ev-ch...6fbqygCo9E_z36ENoQSmOjsozCfTS7bAaAk1nEALw_wcB

from £999 with octopus here

that exact charger I was looking at for £550 and installing myself as I have all the other equipment

https://www.electricpoint.com/ohme-...i40_or3qje5gL4OfcNgd2tNaTaYBxe60aAl9lEALw_wcB

I mean when you factor in an MCB trip, armored cable , the charger itself (more if tethered) you are prob looking at £600-700 and the rest is the fee to have a sparky install it
		
Click to expand...

£899 for 7KW Podpoint fitted

https://pod-point.com/products/driver/solo


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			£899 for 7KW Podpoint fitted

https://pod-point.com/products/driver/solo

Click to expand...

I think the problem is and this is nothing against Dave is there are people out there putting this information out there for people to read / watch and its causing people to have an incorrect outlook on EVs based on wrong information


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## PNWokingham (Nov 27, 2022)

Good job our forum experts are here to correct all the misinformation and misconceptions. DaveR will be riding the eco wave in 2023!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 27, 2022)

We fit these tethered with wi-fi for about £1k.

https://syncev.co.uk/products/home-chargers/EVS7G

They cost us £473

Seems to be competitive as people want them at that price.


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## DaveR (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			In the worst scenario for EVs but certainly not the 115 Rory quoted.
		
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TBH Bob I'm more inclined to believe a reputable professional car review channel than a home blogger but you make up your own mind. Rory Reid and Autocar have no agenda against EVs they simply report the facts as they find them so that people can make up their own minds. You clearly have rose tinted glasses, when are you getting your Tesla?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			TBH Bob I'm more inclined to believe a reputable professional car review channel than a home blogger but you make up your own mind. Rory Reid and Autocar have no agenda against EVs they simply report the facts as they find them so that people can make up their own minds. You clearly have rose tinted glasses, when are you getting your Tesla?
		
Click to expand...

to be fair to Rory he normally is very balances, he is actually pro EV he likes all types of cars 

I enjoy his videos on Evs


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## Stuart_C (Nov 27, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			We have a Hybrid merc just over 12months old. Mrs C was coming out of work Tuesday evening and car wouldn't start. AA sent out a contractor to try and get her goin but no joy. Had to leave it there til AA could retreive it and take it to the Merc dealership. 

Update no car and they dont know what is wrong with it. Both mechanics who looked at it shook their heads trying to fix it.

I couldnt rely on a fully electric motor. I certainly wouldnt buy a 2nd hand one neither.

Shes currently stuck with no veichle.
		
Click to expand...

Just an update, we got the motor back yesterday, a faulty 12v Battery was the cause.

It seems it's a common fault amongst EV. 

Her work colleague had the same issue and his Merc was only 4weeks old.

Speaking to an expert mechanic he wasn't very complimentary about EV's.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			Just an update, we got the motor back yesterday, a faulty 12v Battery was the cause.

It seems it's a common fault amongst EV.

Her work colleague had the same issue and his Merc was only 4weeks old.

Speaking to an expert mechanic he wasn't very complimentary about EV's.
		
Click to expand...

the problem with dealer mechanics is training atm. nothing against your guy but in my experience my dealer only has one person trained on EVs and if they arent in nobody knows what their doing

12 volt is a common issue indeed with all EVs I believe its why tesla are looking to move away from them and go into lithum batteries for their starting batteries 

I have found the couple of issues I have had with my EV are simply fixed by disconnecting the 12 volt for 30 seconds and then back on and the car resets and the problems cured.


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## hovis (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			the problem with dealer mechanics is training atm. nothing against your guy but in my experience my dealer only has one person trained on EVs and if they arent in nobody knows what their doing

12 volt is a common issue indeed with all EVs I believe its why tesla are looking to move away from them and go into lithum batteries for their starting batteries

I have found the couple of issues I have had with my EV are simply fixed by disconnecting the 12 volt for 30 seconds and then back on and the car resets and the problems cured.
		
Click to expand...

The issue has already had a fix.  My car has a 12v button.  Basically this is used to start the car off the main battery when the 12v is bost!!


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			TBH Bob I'm more inclined to believe a reputable professional car review channel than a home blogger but you make up your own mind.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if he drove it the same way he drives his cars, he might only get 115 miles range which he estimated.
The blogger actually drove the buzz from full to empty and under the worst conditions for EVs still got 158 miles.

No rose tinted glasses here.






At 9:14 he clearly states that BOTH the rear brakes on his 72,300 mile Nissan Leaf were *100% worn* and needed *immediate attention*, which disproves the story that EVs are easy on their brakes. ''Nonsense!'' exclaimed the reputable professional car reviewer.

However rather than taking his word for it, I checked.
The MOT states and I quote the advisory....

''Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin (1.1.13 (a) (ii))

So he lied or just didn't check the MOT

If he was that keen on EVs, why did he buy the cheapest Nissan Leaf he could find on Autotrader and then make a video entitled
''Everything I HATE About My Used Electric Car''


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			The issue has already had a fix.  My car has a 12v button.  Basically this is used to start the car off the main battery when the 12v is bost!!
		
Click to expand...

that is utterly brilliant. wish others would follow hyundai


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## chellie (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I've heard recently that all grants for home chargers have stopped and they can now cost around 2 grand, is this true? 😲
		
Click to expand...

Unless it's changed home owners no longer eligible but if you rent you still qualify


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## OnTour (Nov 27, 2022)

NO as the engineer form Octopus couldn't fit the smart meter in the electric box due to the EV box being installed in there and taking up all the space. luckily my figures are just a comparison on regular tariffs (we get free charging at work and yet to use home BOX this year #FingersCrossed)

Octopus go @ 12p would be the next move if FREE gets taken away this year and possible ongoing for next LEASE or purchase.



pauljames87 said:



			have you got onto an EV tariff at home?
		
Click to expand...


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## OnTour (Nov 27, 2022)

100% one of the big faults, it's doesn't get charged properly so they just DIE / wear out after a few years, my old ZOE did the same. replaced and no issues again 



Stuart_C said:



			Just an update, we got the motor back yesterday, a faulty 12v Battery was the cause.

It seems it's a common fault amongst EV.

Her work colleague had the same issue and his Merc was only 4weeks old.

Speaking to an expert mechanic he wasn't very complimentary about EV's.
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

OnTour said:



			NO as the engineer form Octopus couldn't fit the smart meter in the electric box due to the EV box being installed in there and taking up all the space. luckily my figures are just a comparison on regular tariffs (we get free charging at work and yet to use home BOX this year #FingersCrossed)

Octopus go @ 12p would be the next move if FREE gets taken away this year and possible ongoing for next LEASE or purchase.
		
Click to expand...

Ah that's a shame, might be worth looking into getting it changed so they can get the metre in , get a ohme home charger then you can go intelligent rather than go 10p ATM for 6 hours


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			that is utterly brilliant. wish others would follow hyundai
		
Click to expand...

The Hyundai i5 is plagued by 12v battery issues which so far the company has refused to acknowledge. It seems that, during shipping, the voltage was left to run so low that by the time the customer picked them up the battery was shagged. It was a lottery as to whether you had a good one or not. I have been fortunate and, so far, have not had the electrical issues that a lot of other customers have had.


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## hovis (Nov 27, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The Hyundai i5 is plagued by 12v battery issues which so far the company has refused to acknowledge. It seems that, during shipping, the voltage was left to run so low that by the time the customer picked them up the battery was shagged. It was a lottery as to whether you had a good one or not. I have been fortunate and, so far, have not had the electrical issues that a lot of other customers have had.
		
Click to expand...

So the worst thing that happened is these unfortunate people needed a new 12v battery? On warranty?.  This happened to me.  It was hardly an electrical issue.  It was an embarrassing conversation with the AA man when he showed me what the 12v recovery button does and 20 minutes sat in the hyundai dealership whilst they swapped the 12v

Unless you're talking about something else entirely.  I'm not familiar with the iconic.  The kona is slightly different


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## DaveR (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Maybe if he drove it the same way he drives his cars, he might only get 115 miles range which he estimated.
The blogger actually drove the buzz from full to empty and under the worst conditions for EVs still got 158 miles.

No rose tinted glasses here.






At 9:14 he clearly states that BOTH the rear brakes on his 72,300 mile Nissan Leaf were *100% worn* and needed *immediate attention*, which disproves the story that EVs are easy on their brakes. ''Nonsense!'' exclaimed the reputable professional car reviewer.

However rather than taking his word for it, I checked.
The MOT states and I quote the advisory....

''Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) wearing thin (1.1.13 (a) (ii))

So he lied or just didn't check the MOT

If he was that keen on EVs, why did he buy the cheapest Nissan Leaf he could find on Autotrader and then make a video entitled
''Everything I HATE About My Used Electric Car''

Click to expand...

You have clearly missed the point about this series of videos he has done about buying 'the cheapest EV on the market'. Instead of cherry picking individual issues I suggest you follow the whole thing.


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			So the worst thing that happened is these unfortunate people needed a new 12v battery? On warranty?.
		
Click to expand...

People were getting stranded with no power, many were having to buy the battery jump packs as they couldn’t trust the 12v to start it. Hyundai refused to acknowledge the problem and, as such, dealerships were less than helpful at sorting the problem out. You should t be buying a £50k car and having to take an 8mm wrench and a battery jump pack as part of your standard ‘leaving the house equipment’. 

I think it’s got easier to resolve now as Hyundai we’re forced into as as many more of the cars hit the road. It’s just a shame they took so long to actually acknowledge that it existed in the early stages.


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## hovis (Nov 27, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			People were getting stranded with no power, many were having to buy the battery jump packs as they couldn’t trust the 12v to start it. Hyundai refused to acknowledge the problem and, as such, dealerships were less than helpful at sorting the problem out. You should t be buying a £50k car and having to take an 8mm wrench and a battery jump pack as part of your standard ‘leaving the house equipment’.

I think it’s got easier to resolve now as Hyundai we’re forced into as as many more of the cars hit the road. It’s just a shame they took so long to actually acknowledge that it existed in the early stages.
		
Click to expand...

I agree its not good at all.  We can all think of many manufacturers (especially land-rover) where cars don't make it to there first 100 miles.  It happens.  It's fixed now though so what's the issue 🤷‍♂️.   Is a iconic 50k? 😳😳😳. I had no idea.   I would be miffed


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			I agree it’s not good at all.  We can all think of many manufacturers (especially land-rover) where cars don't make it to their first 100 miles.  It happens.  It's fixed now though so what's the issue 🤷‍♂️.   Is a iconic 50k? 😳😳😳. I had no idea.   I would be miffed
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was the top end spec however even at the lower end they’re £40k cars. 

Anyway, my point was that there was always going to be teething problems, new car, new platform. It was just a shame that Hyundai’s service was pretty shoddy to people who’d shelled out and were the unlucky ones who were getting told that they’d need to stump up for the battery as it wasn’t covered in the warranty being a consumable.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			the problem with dealer mechanics is training atm. nothing against your guy but in my experience my dealer only has one person trained on EVs and if they arent in nobody knows what their doing

12 volt is a common issue indeed with all EVs I believe its why tesla are looking to move away from them and go into lithum batteries for their starting batteries

*I have found the couple of issues I have had with my EV are simply fixed by disconnecting the 12 volt for 30 seconds and then back on and the car resets and the problems cured*.
		
Click to expand...

Paying £30k+ for a new motor and you're suggesting to fix a common problem yourself?

I'll let my missus know how simple it is to sort out in future, im sure she'd be well up for that after a busy 12hour shift with very little break in ICU.🙄🙄

It seems anything negative towards any EV and you've got to spin it. Do you really believe this utter tosh you post?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			Paying £30k+ for a new motor and you're suggesting to fix a common problem yourself?

I'll let my missus know how simple it is to sort out in future, im sure she'd be well up for that after a busy 12hour shift with very little break in ICU.🙄🙄

It seems anything negative towards any EV and you've got to spin it. Do you really believe this utter tosh you post?
		
Click to expand...

No I'm not suggesting that at all, it's all part of the learning process for manufacturers, the newer models have far less issues 

They adapt each software update to fix a lot of issues aswell 

I'm just saying I've found a quick reset has solved my issues in the past , however it shouldn't happen. Since I took the car back to vauxhall and they updated the software I haven't had the issue (touch wood) in 4 months 

I'm not suggesting your wife should get out her overalls and take the car apart. Just if a bind and litterally stuck miles from home it doesn't hurt to do the reset if it gets you home.

She would only be waiting for the rac or the aa right? If it gets her home sooner and then cancel the aa

Much like when my normal car had a flat battery right when the wife was going away in it. We jumped it and off she left 

Aa were on the way and if jumping didn't work they would have replaced the battery ..

This isn't pro EV or anti ice it's just a little tip.

Take it how you want.


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Instead of cherry picking individual issues I suggest you follow the whole thing.
		
Click to expand...

So I should ignore the lies he tells when he wants to make EVs look bad?
Gotcha


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## Stuart_C (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			No I'm not suggesting that at all, it's all part of the learning process for manufacturers, the newer models have far less issues

They adapt each software update to fix a lot of issues aswell

I'm just saying I've found a quick reset has solved my issues in the past , however it shouldn't happen. Since I took the car back to vauxhall and they updated the software I haven't had the issue (touch wood) in 4 months

I'm not suggesting your wife should get out her overalls and take the car apart. Just if a bind and litterally stuck miles from home it doesn't hurt to do the reset if it gets you home.

She would only be waiting for the rac or the aa right? If it gets her home sooner and then cancel the aa

Much like when my normal car had a flat battery right when the wife was going away in it. We jumped it and off she left

Aa were on the way and if jumping didn't work they would have replaced the battery ..

This isn't pro EV or anti ice it's just a little tip.

Take it how you want.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, i'll order a spare 12v  battery now, she'll be able to swap it out before the AA arrive.


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## DaveR (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So I should ignore the lies he tells when he wants to make EVs look bad?
Gotcha
		
Click to expand...

Jeez Bob get a grip. He is putting the facts out there for people to make up their own minds. You are the one with the problem.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			Thanks for the tip, i'll order a spare 12v  battery now, she'll be able to swap it out before the AA arrive.
		
Click to expand...

So couple Xmas ago, when My parents had no heating .. with a fault code on the boiler and no tech could get out for 2 weeks you kindly offered a tip to try to help, appreciate you are a plumber .. however did I say na we paid £5000 for this boiler I'm gonna not even try it ....

Just trying to repay the favour.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			So couple Xmas ago, when My parents had no heating .. with a fault code on the boiler and no tech could get out for 2 weeks you kindly offered a tip to try to help, appreciate you are a plumber .. however did I say na we paid £5000 for this boiler I'm gonna not even try it ....

Just trying to repay the favour.
		
Click to expand...

IIRC the help i was prepared  to give you was nowhere near as complicated as lifting a bonnet and disconnecting a12v battery etc.

2 different things.

I'll leave this thread well alone now as i cant compete with your level  of expertise and knowledge.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			IIRC the help i was prepared  to give you was nowhere near as complicated as lifting a bonnet and disconnecting a12v battery etc.

2 different things.

I'll leave this thread well alone now as i cant compete with your level  of expertise and knowledge.
		
Click to expand...

Lifting a bonnet and disconnecting the battery is as easy as checking your oil levels. I'm not saying take the battery out of the car 

Just disconnect and reconnect 




Big red easy disconnect switch and back on again.

Don't need to get your tools out and undo the car


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveR said:



			Jeez Bob get a grip. He is putting the facts out there for people to make up their own minds. You are the one with the problem.
		
Click to expand...

If checking his facts are true and finding out they are not means I'm the one with the problem, fair enough.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			£899 for 7KW Podpoint fitted

https://pod-point.com/products/driver/solo

Click to expand...

Or £1549 for a 22kW model.

Those are the prices for a universal charger, which comes without a cable, so you may need to buy one of them.   And the site has to meet certain criteria, otherwise there may be more costs involved.  And you'll probably need to pay for a 3 phase supply (assuming you don't already have one) if you want the 22kW.


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or £1549 for a 22kW model.

Those are the prices for a universal charger, which comes without a cable, so you may need to buy one of them.   And the site has to meet certain criteria, otherwise there may be more costs involved.  And you'll probably need to pay for a 3 phase supply (assuming you don't already have one) if you want the 22kW.
		
Click to expand...

Why would you want 22kw 3 phase charging?


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## Jason.H (Nov 27, 2022)

Looking at the new Nissan Townstar vans. The electric version is 11/12 grand more than the petrol. Do we really believe that it’s costs that much more to build or are they cashing in on the promise of cheaper running? Therefore the buyer doesn’t benefit Nissan does.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Why would you want 22kw 3 phase charging?
		
Click to expand...

Very few cars ATM can handle it. Their on board chargers are 7kw ac , even the vauxhall if you go 11kw would only accept half of that 

Future maybe 

But hey still under the 2k quoted so proves the point 2k is misleading


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			But hey still under the 2k quoted so proves the point 2k is misleading
		
Click to expand...

Not at all.
All EVs cost over £50k, chargers cost £2k and most only have a range of 115 miles if you drive them like a lunatic.
Lets stick with petrol and diesel cause they're not bad for the environment.
Not forgetting the electricity that charges the cars all comes from clean coal.


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## Jason.H (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Not at all.
All EVs cost over £50k, chargers cost £2k and most only have a range of 115 miles if you drive them like a lunatic.
Lets stick with petrol and diesel cause they're not bad for the environment.
Not forgetting the electricity that charges the cars all comes from clean coal.


Click to expand...

On the news today the uk is buying in coal to keep the lights on. Right now electricity is not clean or cheap.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			On the news today the uk is buying in coal to keep the lights on. Right now electricity is not clean or cheap.
		
Click to expand...

However it's getting cleaner by the day and burning fossil fuel for electric is cleaner than burning it yourself in a car 

Coal will be the emergency back up not the first choice


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## bobmac (Nov 27, 2022)

https://grid.iamkate.com/


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## pauljames87 (Nov 27, 2022)

bobmac said:



https://grid.iamkate.com/

Click to expand...

Waiting for someone to say look solar is 0 lol


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## Tashyboy (Nov 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			However it's getting cleaner by the day and burning fossil fuel for electric is cleaner than burning it yourself in a car

*Coal will be the emergency back up not the first choice*

Click to expand...

As long as there’s not a petition for Tash to get his knee pads and shovel out am ok with that. 🤔👍😁


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## cliveb (Nov 27, 2022)

hovis said:



			The issue has already had a fix.  My car has a 12v button.  Basically this is used to start the car off the main battery when the 12v is bost!!
		
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I've never understood why an EV needs an old fashioned 12V battery.
This comment seems to imply that they could be operated purely from the main battery.
So can anyone explain why EVs have a 12V battery?


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## Stuart_C (Nov 27, 2022)

cliveb said:



			I've never understood why an EV needs an old fashioned 12V battery.
This comment seems to imply that they could be operated purely from the main battery.
So can anyone explain why EVs have a 12V battery?
		
Click to expand...

It's to do with the lower voltage needed for different things like central locking, electric windows etc


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## cliveb (Nov 28, 2022)

Stuart_C said:



			It's to do with the lower voltage needed for different things like central locking, electric windows etc
		
Click to expand...

So why can't they just use a DC stepdown converter to derive a 12V supply from the main battery? There must surely be such a converter somewhere in the car in order to recharge the 12V battery, so the presence of the battery itself seems somehow redundant.

Or is the 12V battery only ever recharged in tandem with the main battery? If so, how is that done from a high voltage DC fast charger? It'll still need a stepdown converter, unless fast chargers also supply a low voltage as well.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 28, 2022)

cliveb said:



*So why can't they just use a DC stepdown converter to derive a 12V supply from the main battery? *There must surely be such a converter somewhere in the car in order to recharge the 12V battery, so the presence of the battery itself seems somehow redundant.

Or is the 12V battery only ever recharged in tandem with the main battery? If so, how is that done from a high voltage DC fast charger? It'll still need a stepdown converter, unless fast chargers also supply a low voltage as well.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Clive but i  dont know. My knowledge of Electrics goes as far as wiring boilers and checking voltage....

PJ87 is the expert on EVs and how they work


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2022)

cliveb said:



			So why can't they just use a DC stepdown converter to derive a 12V supply from the main battery? There must surely be such a converter somewhere in the car in order to recharge the 12V battery, so the presence of the battery itself seems somehow redundant.

Or is the 12V battery only ever recharged in tandem with the main battery? If so, how is that done from a high voltage DC fast charger? It'll still need a stepdown converter, unless fast chargers also supply a low voltage as well.
		
Click to expand...

https://topcharger.co.uk/why-do-ele... combustion engine,require a very low voltage.


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## cliveb (Nov 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



https://topcharger.co.uk/why-do-electric-cars-have-a-12v-battery/#:~:text=Because like internal combustion engine,require a very low voltage.
		
Click to expand...

OK, thanks for the link.
Here are a couple of interesting paragraphs from the article:



			It is cheaper to use a 12v battery than it is to engineer a battery management system that creates a DC-DC conversion from 400v (the voltage that most electric cars run on) to 12v.
		
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough. But...



			A 12v battery can be charged by the electric motor in drive, although in most electric cars, it is topped up by the main battery directly via a converter that steps down the voltage from 400v/800v to around 14v.
		
Click to expand...

So there IS a battery management system that uses DC stepdown, which seems to nullify their previous argument about why it's cheaper to have a 12V battery.

Obviously there must be further subtleties that only EV engineers understand, but as a layman I remain perplexed as to why the 12V battery cannot be eliminated.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 28, 2022)

cliveb said:



			OK, thanks for the link.
Here are a couple of interesting paragraphs from the article:

OK, fair enough. But...

So there IS a battery management system that uses DC stepdown, which seems to nullify their previous argument about why it's cheaper to have a 12V battery.

Obviously there must be further subtleties that only EV engineers understand, but as a layman I remain perplexed as to why the 12V battery cannot be eliminated.
		
Click to expand...

It might be like a back up battery for important things like computer settings.
This would be lost if the driver completely flattened the main drive battery.
But can’t see why it can’t have a system like a stop,start battery.
Could be it reduces capacity and so mileage.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

Just had an email from BMW regarding the i4 that I am on the waitlist for. Notification of a price increase from £63,995 to £69,995 .

Now I take my cars on PCP so the list price isn't always that critical, but either way you cut it (with an average PCP being calculable at £30 per month for every £1k in price increase) that's an extra £180 per month before even starting. Now seriously reconsidering this.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Just had an email from BMW regarding the i4 that I am on the waitlist for. Notification of a price increase from £63,995 to £69,995 .

Now I take my cars on PCP so the list price isn't always that critical, but either way you cut it (with an average PCP being calculable at £30 per month for every £1k in price increase) that's an extra £180 per month before even starting. Now seriously reconsidering this.
		
Click to expand...

Ouch! I noticed that on octopus lease deals they said it's subject to bank of England base rate .. price increases etc 

I was (wrongly) under the impression of once a price is agreed that is it 

I mean my battery at home didnt go up I just had to wait for it but the price did go up whilst I was waiting just (wrongly) assumed that was the way


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ouch! I noticed that on octopus lease deals they said it's subject to bank of England base rate .. price increases etc

I was (wrongly) under the impression of once a price is agreed that is it

I mean my battery at home didnt go up I just had to wait for it but the price did go up whilst I was waiting just (wrongly) assumed that was the way
		
Click to expand...

Just the way that it works that the "waiting list" is not an actual order for a vehicle as they can't place those until the "sales slots" or some nonsense, become available. So the sale will be at the prevailing price. 

Now I assumed that there would be an increase, but I didn't think it would be £6k BEFORE options.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2022)

Monkey and nuts come to mind.
Does this help?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...tising-location=at_cars&sort=relevance&page=1


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Monkey and nuts come to mind.
Does this help?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202211141667258?journey=deals&include-delivery-option=on&make=BMW&radius=1500&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&model=i4&postcode=ng348xf&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=relevance&page=1

Click to expand...

No because it's not the correct model of specification.

So no monkey and no nuts.

Also, that's a model that has a £56k base price so is still over priced.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2022)

Or.....you could get this and buy me a 2019 Nissan Leaf with the money you've saved

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...evance&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Or.....you could get this and buy me a 2019 Nissan Leaf with the money you've saved

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210040415611?include-delivery-option=on&make=Tesla&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&maximum-mileage=100&sort=relevance&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true

Click to expand...

That is one seriously ugly car .


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			That is one seriously ugly car .
		
Click to expand...

The i4?, totally agree, the ugliest car BMW have ever made


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The i4?, totally agree, the ugliest car BMW have ever made  

Click to expand...

I think you'll find that title has been taken by the i7...


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## JamesR (Nov 28, 2022)

I'm looking for a small SUV, preferably petrol, 4x4, with a boot big enough for the golf equipment.
Any suggestions?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I'm looking for a small SUV, preferably petrol, 4x4, with a boot big enough for the golf equipment.
Any suggestions?
		
Click to expand...

Honda hrv. Boot like a TARDIS


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I think you'll find that title has been taken by the i7... 

Click to expand...

I'd forgotten about that


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## PNWokingham (Nov 28, 2022)

JamesR said:



			I'm looking for a small SUV, preferably petrol, 4x4, with a boot big enough for the golf equipment.
Any suggestions?
		
Click to expand...

not sure on budget James but Skoda Karoq looks decent. Always liked BMW X3 albeit a chunk dearer


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'd forgotten about that


Click to expand...

I do love the massive TV that folds down from the roof in the back though. That’s proper needless extravagance right there.


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## DaveR (Nov 28, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Or.....you could get this and buy me a 2019 Nissan Leaf with the money you've saved

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210040415611?include-delivery-option=on&make=Tesla&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ng348xf&maximum-mileage=100&sort=relevance&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true

Click to expand...

I know Teslas are amongst the best EVs but I hate the massive iPad dominating the interior and the fact that everything is done through it. Could be so much better with a few simple 'regular' tasks move to normal buttons and dials.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I know Teslas are amongst the best EVs but I hate the massive iPad dominating the interior and the fact that everything is done through it. Could be so much better with a few simple 'regular' tasks move to normal buttons and dials.
		
Click to expand...

Most EVs are like that now unfortunately. It's the "future" but tbh dials work better.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Just had an email from BMW regarding the i4 that I am on the waitlist for. Notification of a price increase from £63,995 to £69,995 .

Now I take my cars on PCP so the list price isn't always that critical, but either way you cut it (with an average PCP being calculable at £30 per month for every £1k in price increase) that's an extra £180 per month before even starting. Now seriously reconsidering this.
		
Click to expand...

They have to recover the costs of those TV's they bought for the chips they want in their cars


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## Jason.H (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Just had an email from BMW regarding the i4 that I am on the waitlist for. Notification of a price increase from £63,995 to £69,995 .

Now I take my cars on PCP so the list price isn't always that critical, but either way you cut it (with an average PCP being calculable at £30 per month for every £1k in price increase) that's an extra £180 per month before even starting. Now seriously reconsidering this.
		
Click to expand...

BMW always charge more interest on there finance packages than most.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

Jason.H said:



			BMW always charge more interest on there finance packages than most.
		
Click to expand...

Last 3 deals I have had have been 0% on the 335d, 0.5% on the M340 and currently 1.5% on the 840 so I'm not doing too badly out of them.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

DaveR said:



			I know Teslas are amongst the best EVs but I hate the massive iPad dominating the interior and the fact that everything is done through it. Could be so much better with a few simple 'regular' tasks move to normal buttons and dials.
		
Click to expand...

Got to say it's the only thing I really dislike about my mate's Model S, any task is menu after menu all the whilst taking eyes off the road. Last time I drove it the AC was set at 24 degrees and it was melting outside. I didn't even try adjusting it, just opened the window. Normal dials for AC etc and the Model S would be nigh perfect.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Got to say it's the only thing I really dislike about my mate's Model S, any task is menu after menu all the whilst taking eyes off the road. Last time I drove it the AC was set at 24 degrees and it was melting outside. I didn't even try adjusting it, just opened the window. Normal dials for AC etc and the Model S would be nigh perfect.
		
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I believe (once used to it) you can set it all via voice 

No doubt it will change the radio when you ask the car to turn the temp to 19


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I believe (once used to it) you can set it all via voice 

No doubt it will change the radio when you ask the car to turn the temp to 19
		
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I've had 4 cars with voice recognition. Only one has been usable 😆. I don't even have much of an accent 🤷‍♂️.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I believe (once used to it) you can set it all via voice

No doubt it will change the radio when you ask the car to turn the temp to 19
		
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Voice recognition and a Scottish accent? Aye, right!


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## cliveb (Nov 28, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Got to say it's the only thing I really dislike about my mate's Model S, any task is menu after menu all the whilst taking eyes off the road. Last time I drove it the AC was set at 24 degrees and it was melting outside. I didn't even try adjusting it, just opened the window. Normal dials for AC etc and the Model S would be nigh perfect.
		
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What gets my goat is that it's presumably legal to operate the multi-level menus on these touchscreens, but so much as think of touching your phone (even when stopped at a red light or in a traffic jam) and you're nicked, sonny jim.


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

Auto windscreen wipers, auto lights, auto AC, I hardly change any setting in my car.
I think the only thing is the music and I do that with the steering wheel buttons


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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2022)

The one thing I hate about modern cars is the touchscreen menu's. They are an accident waiting to happen


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			The one thing I hate about modern cars is the touchscreen menu's. They are an accident waiting to happen
		
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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2022)

Not all cars have Siri or Alexa etc. Touchscreen menu's are an accident waiting to happen. Trust me, I know from experience.


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

I agree, anything that takes your eyes off the road is not good.
The video I linked to just shows how far ahead Tesla are over other EV manufacturers.
I'd prefer a balance of having some buttons/switches.


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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2022)

Peugeot's have had certain touch screen features long before the EV's came out. I've been stranded in France for five days before for stupidly using them whilst driving, and had an accident in a Nissan Juke prior to that due to using heater controls that meant me having to take my eyes off the road. My own fault both times, but easy to do.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597348269021360128
Imprresive they got 500 miles out of it


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## Neilds (Nov 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Auto windscreen wipers, auto lights, auto AC, I hardly change any setting in my car.
I think the only thing is the music and I do that with the steering wheel buttons
		
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Now we know who is the person who relies on auto lights and doesn't turn them on in fog Bob must be driving loads of cars round my way this morning!


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597348269021360128
Imprresive they got 500 miles out of it
		
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Elon has a habit of proving people wrong


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Elon has a habit of proving people wrong
		
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Just wish he would focus on this and stop the crazy bond villian antics


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Just wish he would focus on this and stop the crazy bond villian antics
		
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The guy is a grade a knob.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Now we know who is the person who relies on auto lights and doesn't turn them on in fog Bob must be driving loads of cars round my way this morning!
		
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It's the biggest weakness of auto lights. That along with auto lights that don't show a symbol on the dash to show they are on dipped. Thick fog here today and more than half the cars didn't have rear lights on as it wasn't dark.


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## cliveb (Nov 29, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's the biggest weakness of auto lights. That along with auto lights that don't show a symbol on the dash to show they are on dipped. Thick fog here today and more than half the cars didn't have rear lights on as it wasn't dark.
		
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I despise all auto ancilliaries in cars: lights, wipers, AC. I am perfectly capable of knowing when these things should be turned on or off.

That said, I suppose if in order to switch them on or off I needed to navigate menus on a touchscreen, then automatic activation would be required. But that is a solution to a problem that wouldn't be present if only the car had proper switches instead of a touchscreen.

Let's not kid ourselves that this is progress. Removing physical switches and replacing them with software is nothing more than a cost-saving measure. It has nothing to do with improving the driving experience, and as Smiffy says, is a positive menace to road safety.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

cliveb said:



			I despise all auto ancilliaries in cars: lights, wipers, AC. I am perfectly capable of knowing when these things should be turned on or off.

That said, I suppose if in order to switch them on or off I needed to navigate menus on a touchscreen, then automatic activation would be required. But that is a solution to a problem that wouldn't be present if only the car had proper switches instead of a touchscreen.

Let's not kid ourselves that this is progress. Removing physical switches and replacing them with software is nothing more than a cost-saving measure. It has nothing to do with improving the driving experience, and as Smiffy says, is a positive menace to road safety.
		
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The lights on the Corsa are a game changer

"VAUXHALL INTELLILUX LED LIGHTS"

Basically they put full beam on automatically but they also stop you blinding people so you can have full behind behind someone it senses what bit of the light to activate

Really good.

Only thing I'll miss when it goes back


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## Beezerk (Nov 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			The lights on the Corsa are a game changer

"VAUXHALL INTELLILUX LED LIGHTS"

Basically they put full beam on automatically but they also stop you blinding people so you can have full behind behind someone it senses what bit of the light to activate

Really good.

Only thing I'll miss when it goes back
		
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My Mazda has similar when you switch to auto light, it changes to full beam if it thinks there’s no other cars or street lights, very clever. Only down side, it can sometimes go on and off quick quickly if cars are going in the opposite direction, anyone behind me will think I’m a total nutter 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			My Mazda has similar when you switch to auto light, it changes to full beam if it thinks there’s no other cars or street lights, very clever. Only down side, it can sometimes go on and off quick quickly if cars are going in the opposite direction, anyone behind me will think I’m a total nutter 🤣
		
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Oh no these are step above, I had that system on my honda

These ones will have the full beem on with traffic in front of you when it's really dark but it won't blind them

"Adaptive IntelliLux LED technology is available on the new Corsa, Astra and new Insignia, as well as the all-new Mokka and fully-electric Mokka-e, making night-time drives safer and more comfortable. The glare-free headlights automatically switch to main-beam outside urban areas, and continuously adapt the range and distribution of the light beam pattern to suit the road conditions and avoid dazzling oncoming traffic."

"The adaptive IntelliLux LED Pixel Lights on the new Insignia feature 168 individual LED elements. The high number of continuously reacting LED elements results in a seamlessly adaptative light beam that avoids glaring oncoming or passing vehicles while optimising visibility for the driver."


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2022)

To my mind, the reason auto lights are great is that when you switch your engine on it looks like Blackpool illuminations...
Back in the day, when you switched the engine on, the dashboard didn't light up...it only lot up when you put your lights on.
It's so easy, these days, to see the dashboard lit up and assume that your lights are on...especially in fog.
To be honest, it's no big deal to have them on all the time - problem solved.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh no these are step above, I had that system on my honda

These ones will have the full beem on with traffic in front of you when it's really dark but it won't blind them

"Adaptive IntelliLux LED technology is available on the new Corsa, Astra and new Insignia, as well as the all-new Mokka and fully-electric Mokka-e, making night-time drives safer and more comfortable. The glare-free headlights automatically switch to main-beam outside urban areas, and continuously adapt the range and distribution of the light beam pattern to suit the road conditions and avoid dazzling oncoming traffic."

"The adaptive IntelliLux LED Pixel Lights on the new Insignia *feature 168 individual LED elements. *The high number of continuously reacting LED elements results in a seamlessly adaptative light beam that avoids glaring oncoming or passing vehicles while optimising visibility for the driver."
		
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To me that just sounds like one more thing to go wrong. Or in this case 168 more things to go wrong. I'm sure they're great when they work, but it's when they stop working properly that you have problems.

Mrs Colch gets so frustrated with me as I refuse to use auto lights or windscreen wipers in our cars. But my C-Max still decides that it needs to change the setting on the windscreen wipers without me doing anything. I'll be quite happy with it on intermittent and then it will decide that they need to be on constant causing that horrible squeak because the rain isn't heavy enough for them to be on full. It does my head in. I'm perfectly capable of deciding what setting to put the wipers on and I don't need the car doing it for me. In light rain I don't even bother to put them on intermittent any more, I'll just flick the lever to clear the screen whenever it needs it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			To me that just sounds like one more thing to go wrong. Or in this case 168 more things to go wrong. I'm sure they're great when they work, but it's when they stop working properly that you have problems.

Mrs Colch gets so frustrated with me as I refuse to use auto lights or windscreen wipers in our cars. But my C-Max still decides that it needs to change the setting on the windscreen wipers without me doing anything. I'll be quite happy with it on intermittent and then it will decide that they need to be on constant causing that horrible squeak because the rain isn't heavy enough for them to be on full. It does my head in. I'm perfectly capable of deciding what setting to put the wipers on and I don't need the car doing it for me. In light rain I don't even bother to put them on intermittent any more, I'll just flick the lever to clear the screen whenever it needs it.
		
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Problem is the typical "man" attuides hold back technology. Autodrive cars when they come in , many moons you can put your house on the number 1 cause of accidents won't be a rare computer failure it will be a driver thinking na I know better than this I'll just drive

See it every day with trains.. If they are in auto they run a lot better than manual as the computer keeps them the perfect distance and max speed apart 

You will get drivers take over and ever cause massive gaps by not driving to target speed or overspending when the limit changes and having the auto brakes applied


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## PNWokingham (Nov 29, 2022)

Interesting read - not sure what many elecric cars will be worth at 6 to 10 years old. Batterry health will likely be the number one issue when buying second hand

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/battery-life-uncertainty-prompts-concern-over-used-evs


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## road2ruin (Nov 29, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Interesting read - not sure what many elecric cars will be worth at 6 to 10 years old. Batterry health will likely be the number one issue when buying second hand

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/battery-life-uncertainty-prompts-concern-over-used-evs

Click to expand...

To be honest my main concern about the EV's worth wouldn't be so much the battery health (although obviously a consideration) but the battery advances over that period. Even if mine kept the full amount it'll still be at the 260 odd mile range and how appealing will that be to buyers who can get ones that'll do 400+ or whatever the new tech allows.


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			To be honest my main concern about the EV's worth wouldn't be so much the battery health (although obviously a consideration) but the battery advances over that period. Even if mine kept the full amount it'll still be at the 260 odd mile range and how appealing will that be to buyers who can get ones that'll do 400+ or whatever the new tech allows.
		
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260 mile range would be more than enough range for me so very appealing, compared to the cost of a new car with a 400 mile range


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## PNWokingham (Nov 29, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			To be honest my main concern about the EV's worth wouldn't be so much the battery health (although obviously a consideration) b*ut the battery advances over that period*. Even if mine kept the full amount it'll still be at the 260 odd mile range and how appealing will that be to buyers who can get ones that'll do 400+ or whatever the new tech allows.
		
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totally agree - i was also going to mention that but forgot! But battery being the key point and these the 2 main issues


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## BiMGuy (Nov 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			260 mile range would be more than enough range for me so very appealing, compared to the cost of a new car with a 400 mile range
		
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260 miles is more than I used to get from my old M3 😳

And is way more than most people will need for 99% of their journeys.


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## road2ruin (Nov 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			260 mile range would be more than enough range for me so very appealing, compared to the cost of a new car with a 400 mile range
		
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Indeed you are correct however I was talking about residual values of cars. Like anything, old tech gets replaced and I would imagine old EV's are more vulnerable to depreciation with the advances in battery tech.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 29, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Indeed you are correct however I was talking about residual values of cars. Like anything, old tech gets replaced and I would imagine old EV's are more vulnerable to depreciation with the advances in battery tech.
		
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True. But I think its mostly an issue for people buying second hand as most new cars will be bought with on kind of finance.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			True. But I think its mostly an issue for people buying second hand as most new cars will be bought with on kind of finance.
		
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What was very interesting in that article was the last couple paragraphs where they stated that batteries in private EVs were performing better than expected


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## Fade and Die (Nov 29, 2022)

bobmac said:



			260 mile range would be more than enough range for me so very appealing, compared to the cost of a new car with a 400 mile range
		
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Bob whilst you are one of the forums biggest EV fanboys (I have you pegged at #2👍)You are actually a perfect example of why EVs are not suitable for the majority of people…They are just too expensive. Even second hand they are out of your reach and by the time they are cheap enough what sort of range would you get from them? 
Something has to change to bring the price down to a realistic level so they appeal to the masses. At the moment it’s all compromises and paying through the nose for the privilege.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 29, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			My Mazda has similar when you switch to auto light, it changes to full beam if it thinks there’s no other cars or street lights, very clever. Only down side, it can sometimes go on and off quick quickly if cars are going in the opposite direction, anyone behind me will think I’m a total nutter 🤣
		
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My Mazda 3 has adaptive high beam, whereby you push the light stalk down into the high beam position and when the car thinks its ok it brings on the high beam. If you have another car coming the other way, and the car thinks it's ok, it switches off segments of LED's to reduce the high beam throw to not blind the oncoming car. It's a wonderful bit of kit to watch the high beam lights coming and going, but TBH I just normally leave the lights in normal mode on auto


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Bob whilst you are one of the forums biggest EV fanboys (I have you pegged at #2👍)You are actually a perfect example of why EVs are not suitable for the majority of people…They are just too expensive. Even second hand they are out of your reach and by the time they are cheap enough what sort of range would you get from them?
Something has to change to bring the price down to a realistic level so they appeal to the masses. At the moment it’s all compromises and paying through the nose for the privilege.
		
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EVs are expensive? 
Really, I had no idea.


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## DaveR (Nov 29, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Bob whilst you are one of the forums biggest EV fanboys (I have you pegged at #2👍)You are actually a perfect example of why EVs are not suitable for the majority of people…They are just too expensive. Even second hand they are out of your reach and by the time they are cheap enough what sort of range would you get from them?
Something has to change to bring the price down to a realistic level so they appeal to the masses. At the moment it’s all compromises and paying through the nose for the privilege.
		
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Agreed, I would love to go EV but what I want/require and what I can afford are two very different things.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 30, 2022)

The new Civic Type R is now an eye-wateringly expensive 47K - i thought the old one was circa 35k last time i looked! 

But, I would put money that in 10yrs time this will be worth a fudge-ton more than a mid 40k new electric car, and will probably continue to appreciate from that point

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/honda/civic-type-r


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## D-S (Dec 1, 2022)

“The Secret Genius of Modern Life” tonight on BBC 2 might be interesting on how EVs are built.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2022)

Some advice if anyone knows.
My sons EV charging point has tripped the RCB ,when he has tried to reset the fuse trip it won’t stay up.
Is this a common thing ?
Is there any tricks to sort it ?
I am ok with normal wiring but this is above my pay grade.
He’s looking for the paperwork to see what the warranty says as it’s about 18 months old.
Any help thanks.


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## road2ruin (Dec 11, 2022)

Interesting to see what the colder temps have done to the car. Up until a few weeks back I was getting 270 odd miles to a ‘tank’, about 3.7kWh with a battery of 73kWh. This has dropped to about 2.1kWh doing the same journeys. Range is about 160 miles give or take. 

Was fully prepared for the drop in range but didn’t think it’d be quite this brutal!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Some advice if anyone knows.
My sons EV charging point has tripped the RCB ,when he has tried to reset the fuse trip it won’t stay up.
Is this a common thing ?
Is there any tricks to sort it ?
I am ok with normal wiring but this is above my pay grade.
He’s looking for the paperwork to see what the warranty says as it’s about 18 months old.
Any help thanks.
		
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Does it trip out when the unit is just on standby? if there is no obvious damage to the cable it must be a faulty unit. What make is it? The ones we have been fitting come with a 3 Year warranty.


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## Jason.H (Dec 11, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting to see what the colder temps have done to the car. Up until a few weeks back I was getting 270 odd miles to a ‘tank’, about 3.7kWh with a battery of 73kWh. This has dropped to about 2.1kWh doing the same journeys. Range is about 160 miles give or take. 

Was fully prepared for the drop in range but didn’t think it’d be quite this brutal! 

Click to expand...

Ouch so you pay more now to charge and the range is down considerably.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting to see what the colder temps have done to the car. Up until a few weeks back I was getting 270 odd miles to a ‘tank’, about 3.7kWh with a battery of 73kWh. This has dropped to about 2.1kWh doing the same journeys. Range is about 160 miles give or take.

Was fully prepared for the drop in range but didn’t think it’d be quite this brutal! 

Click to expand...

That's painful, a 40% drop. I assume it's partly due to the temperatures and partly due to driving with heaters and headlights on most of the time?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's painful, a 40% drop. I assume it's partly due to the temperatures and partly due to driving with heaters and headlights on most of the time?
		
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It's mainly due to temperature, headlights really use little electric, same with heaters as they are heat pumps now. If you pre condition the cars you get longer range and don't have to use the heater as much because it's already at 20 degree for example when you get in and it just maintains that 

Summer I get roughly 170 out of a charge 
Winter 140 roughly 
These extreme weeks 120 maybe worse case


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Does it trip out when the unit is just on standby? if there is no obvious damage to the cable it must be a faulty unit. What make is it? The ones we have been fitting come with a 3 Year warranty.
		
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Lad has told me it’s a problem in the car.
He took it to Tesco and it wouldn’t charge there either.
He’s a mobile pharmacist and needs his car it’s 3 month old that’s pretty poor imo.
But could happen to a ice car just as easily.
He’s borrowed mine ,so I am on shanks pony.

Since found out you have to push the RCB switch down hard to click ,before it will reset.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Lad has told me it’s a problem in the car.
He took it to Tesco and it wouldn’t charge there either.
He’s a mobile pharmacist and needs his car it’s 3 month old that’s pretty poor imo.
But could happen to a ice car just as easily.
He’s borrowed mine ,so I am on shanks pony.

Since found out you have to push the RCB switch down hard to click ,before it will reset.
		
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Which car is it? I'm waiting for a replacement on board charger ATM (been waiting 2 months) but luckily it still charges just very intermittently will stop after hour. Like u say could happen to an ice car..

I've cut them a lot of slack with it as the chip shortage is an issue BUT their lack of EV knowledge has caused this. I sent it first to them in June, then August and then sept 

Only in sept did they agree with my findings about it being a onboard charger fault 

Others having the same issue got instant parts ordered this dealer is just useless 

Anyways back to your issue. The car, has he tried rapid Charging it?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Which car is it? I'm waiting for a replacement on board charger ATM (been waiting 2 months) but luckily it still charges just very intermittently will stop after hour. Like u say could happen to an ice car..

I've cut them a lot of slack with it as the chip shortage is an issue BUT their lack of EV knowledge has caused this. I sent it first to them in June, then August and then sept

Only in sept did they agree with my findings about it being a onboard charger fault

Others having the same issue got instant parts ordered this dealer is just useless

Anyways back to your issue. The car, has he tried rapid Charging it?
		
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It’s a Citroen don’t know the model.
Yes he said “ rapid charger was ok for 30 mins then shut down” keeping him going but not ideal with 3 kids.
His home charger keeps tripping out.
It’s going back to dealer tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s a Citroen don’t know the model.
Yes he said “ rapid charger was ok for 30 mins then shut down” keeping him going but not ideal with 3 kids.
His home charger keeps tripping out.
It’s going back to dealer tomorrow.
		
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Yeah mined a vauxhall so same group 

No ideal at all, least he will get a loan car, I'd push for an ev one or say cover the petrol costs.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 11, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Lad has told me it’s a problem in the car.
He took it to Tesco and it wouldn’t charge there either.
He’s a mobile pharmacist and needs his car it’s 3 month old that’s pretty poor imo.
But could happen to a ice car just as easily.
He’s borrowed mine ,so I am on shanks pony.

*Since found out you have to push the RCB switch down hard to click ,before it will reset*.
		
Click to expand...

This can be a PITA when trying to talk to someone on the phone about resetting a RCD. (I can only think of one brand MK sentry that has this feature, but there might be more) 
Had a few call outs that just need the switch pushing down then up.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 11, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			This can be a PITA when trying to talk to someone on the phone about resetting a RCD. (I can only think of one brand MK sentry that has this feature, but there might be more)
Had a few call outs that just need the switch pushing down then up.
		
Click to expand...

I googled it tbh.
Wasn’t that hard to find the answer.
Thank guys.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 14, 2022)

Bring back the growler! 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-amg/c63-s-e-performance


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## pool888 (Dec 14, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting to see what the colder temps have done to the car. Up until a few weeks back I was getting 270 odd miles to a ‘tank’, about 3.7kWh with a battery of 73kWh. This has dropped to about 2.1kWh doing the same journeys. Range is about 160 miles give or take.

Was fully prepared for the drop in range but didn’t think it’d be quite this brutal! 

Click to expand...

What type of car do you have out of interest? Does it have a heat pump? My normal for my Model 3 is pretty much exactly  the same as you at 270wh/mile, I've never seen it go anywhere near 475wh/mile in the winter and I'm up in Northern Scotland. My winter is around 320wh/mile and I do a lot of short journies which is bad for efficiency as you are heating up the interior and battery every time.


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2022)

pool888 said:



			What type of car do you have out of interest? Does it have a heat pump? My normal for my Model 3 is pretty much exactly  the same as you at 270wh/mile, I've never seen it go anywhere near 475wh/mile in the winter and I'm up in Northern Scotland. My winter is around 320wh/mile and I do a lot of short journies which is bad for efficiency as you are heating up the interior and battery every time.
		
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Hyundai Ioniq 5. I didn't go for the ECO pack which includes the battery preconditioning/heat pump etc which might well have helped in these conditions. I am also doing the shorter journeys which isn't helping at the moment. I have a longer journey to Bournemouth on NYE so will be interesting to see if I get more miles if the temps continue like this. Interesting you don't see the same drop, whilst they're different cars the tech is essentially the same.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Hyundai Ioniq 5. I didn't go for the ECO pack which includes the battery preconditioning/heat pump etc which might well have helped in these conditions. I am also doing the shorter journeys which isn't helping at the moment. I have a longer journey to Bournemouth on NYE so will be interesting to see if I get more miles if the temps continue like this. Interesting you don't see the same drop, whilst they're different cars the tech is essentially the same.
		
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It shouldn't be an extra , it's bad it is, such an important factor.. makes battery last longer life span wise and distance


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## pool888 (Dec 14, 2022)

My old Model 3 didn't have a heat pump and it wasn't that much worse than my new one which does has the heat pump to be honest, I would say around 5% overall. I would think with a longer journey you should see much better efficiency as the initial heating does take its toll. Winter weather is always worse with temperature, wind, and wet roads but you also tend to be driving a little slower which helps.


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It shouldn't be an extra , it's bad it is, such an important factor.. makes battery last longer life span wise and distance
		
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Yeah, when I ordered there were Tech packs and the Eco pack that were optional extras, I went for the former but didn't bother with the latter. I think it's becoming standard in the 2023 models.


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## hovis (Dec 14, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Hyundai Ioniq 5. I didn't go for the ECO pack which includes the battery preconditioning/heat pump etc which might well have helped in these conditions. I am also doing the shorter journeys which isn't helping at the moment. I have a longer journey to Bournemouth on NYE so will be interesting to see if I get more miles if the temps continue like this. Interesting you don't see the same drop, whilst they're different cars the tech is essentially the same.
		
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Something is not right there.  My miles per kW hardly changes no matter what the weather.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Kona has the same battery as the ionic with them both being hyundai.   Fan speed on the heater drastically decreases range.  Have you checked that?
I'm also Interested why you think the length of journey is relevant?


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## Slime (Dec 14, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Bring back the growler!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mercedes-amg/c63-s-e-performance

Click to expand...

One of the greatest noises I've ever heard, the noise is just so special ...................................... and sort of dirty.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 14, 2022)

Slime said:



			One of the greatest noises I've ever heard, the noise is just so special ...................................... and sort of dirty.
		
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I had the 6.2 e class and loved playing through the Hindhead tunnel. Miss that old 15mpg beast!


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## larmen (Dec 14, 2022)

This week’s Fully Charged Show is looking at 2nd hand EVs. They still seem to be very expensive. And a lot of ‘if you need a short journey runaround’ possibly as 2nd car.

I still want one, but I also still don’t want to pay that ,only for one ;-)


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Something is not right there.  My miles per kW hardly changes no matter what the weather.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Kona has the same battery as the ionic with them both being hyundai.   Fan speed on the heater drastically decreases range.  Have you checked that?
I'm also Interested why you think the length of journey is relevant?
		
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You’re doing well to have no loss in range, cold weather seems to have a huge effect on EV range based on the FB groups I’m in. I don’t have the fan speed on high as it’s just annoying so will have it on one of the lowest settings. I will preheat the car which obviously uses some battery however it’s just the mil/kWh that’s the main culprit. As I said, I’ve got from around 3.7 down to 2.3 or thereabouts.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2022)

I was due a visit from a sales rep on Tuesday. She rang and apologised but her car was draining too quickly and she couldn't guarantee getting home afterwards. She has had it since Easter, loves it, but was shocked by the drop off in range in this cold snap. I forgot to ask which model it was, I'll try to find out.


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## hovis (Dec 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			You’re doing well to have no loss in range, cold weather seems to have a huge effect on EV range based on the FB groups I’m in. I don’t have the fan speed on high as it’s just annoying so will have it on one of the lowest settings. I will preheat the car which obviously uses some battery however it’s just the mil/kWh that’s the main culprit. As I said, I’ve got from around 3.7 down to 2.3 or thereabouts.
		
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I do have loss of range.  My battery that charges to around 290 only charges to about 240/250 at the moment.  But I usually get 3.5/4 per kwh.  Last night on the way to work with the heating on high and foot to the floor I was getting 3.2/3.5.  Below is my driving for the last 17 days.


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## pool888 (Dec 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Something is not right there.  My miles per kW hardly changes no matter what the weather.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Kona has the same battery as the ionic with them both being hyundai.   Fan speed on the heater drastically decreases range.  Have you checked that?
I'm also Interested why you think the length of journey is relevant?
		
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You're the exception to the rule if you notice no difference unless you preheat the car while connected to the mains every journey. Wet roads have higher resistance, high wind too, a cold battery has poorer efficiency, and you're using battery to heat the car from below freezing at the moment. All this adds up to higher consumption, especially on short journies as you are heating the car every time just to travel a few miles. Some people seem to be affected much worse than others, I normally see an average of  around 15% to 20% extra consumption compared to the summer, but you have to also remember that "normal" cars have a drop in mpg in the winter as well.


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## hovis (Dec 15, 2022)

pool888 said:



			You're the exception to the rule if you notice no difference unless you preheat the car while connected to the mains every journey. Wet roads have higher resistance, high wind too, a cold battery has poorer efficiency, and you're using battery to heat the car from below freezing at the moment. All this adds up to higher consumption, especially on short journies as you are heating the car every time just to travel a few miles. Some people seem to be affected much worse than others, I normally see an average of  around 15% to 20% extra consumption compared to the summer, but you have to also remember that "normal" cars have a drop in mpg in the winter as well.
		
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I'm not talking about the overall range I'm talking about the miles to kwh.
The heater doesn't have the impact that you think (10 minutes of full blast heat when stationary uses 2 miles range) . Sure it has an effect but it doesn't explain the drastic drop in range that he's getting.  As I explained before, I can't charge as much in cold weather but the miles per kwh are not far off at all.  It definitely isn't effected by wet roads and high winds enough to notice 😂  That's hilarious.
You see a later post I've made of my kwh last night when I was driving like a mooron.    My car is nothing special (especially when his is a hyundai too) I personally think he maybe has something running he's not aware of or the kona is in fact different to the iconic.   Can't see why there's a difference when it's the same operating system and his car is more aerodynamic than mine


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			I do have loss of range.  My battery that charges to around 290 only charges to about 240/250 at the moment.  But I usually get 3.5/4 per kwh.  Last night on the way to work with the heating on high and foot to the floor I was getting 3.2/3.5.  Below is my driving for the last 17 days.
		
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My 'full tank' on the GOM is 200 from memory however the real range is closer to 150. 3.6/7 was my standard energy usage during the warmer months and that was with air con going and driving without much regard for energy usage, coming from an Audi S4 I am not one who is bothered about managing my miles etc.

It is only since the drop in terms that this drop off has occurred, probably 2.1/2 per kWh. 

I had a look at my app and this is my present consumption....



I have the climate set to 20 degrees as I don't like it too warm and the fan speed is 2/5 as I can't hear myself think with it going full blast. Other than that I don't have anything electrical running in the background that I would attribute to this loss in range.


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## hovis (Dec 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			My 'full tank' on the GOM is 200 from memory however the real range is closer to 150. 3.6/7 was my standard energy usage during the warmer months and that was with air con going and driving without much regard for energy usage, coming from an Audi S4 I am not one who is bothered about managing my miles etc.

It is only since the drop in terms that this drop off has occurred, probably 2.1/2 per kWh.

I had a look at my app and this is my present consumption....

View attachment 45595

I have the climate set to 20 degrees as I don't like it too warm and the fan speed is 2/5 as I can't hear myself think with it going full blast. Other than that I don't have anything electrical running in the background that I would attribute to this loss in range.
		
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That's crazy.  You say other drivers with your car are getting the same too?   I've got to go to hyundai Monday to pick up a new key.  I'll ask the question


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			That's crazy.  You say other drivers with your car are getting the same too?   I've got to go to hyundai Monday to pick up a new key.  I'll ask the question
		
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Yeah, it doesn't seem to be uncommon otherwise I'd be on the phone to the dealer now to ask them whether there is something draining the battery that I'm unaware of. I've actually just got off the phone to a supplier of mine, he has a Polestar and his winter stats are very similar to mine, GOM shows 210 but his actual driving range is 150 so that also seems more in keeping with my experiences. 

If you do speak to them on Monday I'd be interested to know whether they have any answers as to the difference in range (or loss of) between our two cars given they're both Hyundai's!!


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## Aztecs27 (Dec 15, 2022)

If anyone is looking for an EV lease - worth looking at the possibility of your employer signing up to the OctopusEV scheme;

https://octopusev.com/

As it's a lease, you get everything included (car, insurance, maintenance, tyres, servicing etc) and if you do it through your employment it works on a salary sacrifice, so takes the payment out before tax. 

I'm waiting for delivery of my Skoda Enyaq (still got ages to wait, but not in a rush), but the whole process is very well managed and you even get a home charger installed for free as part of the package (I think this is still the case)


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## pool888 (Dec 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm not talking about the overall range I'm talking about the miles to kwh.
The heater doesn't have the impact that you think (10 minutes of full blast heat when stationary uses 2 miles range) . Sure it has an effect but it doesn't explain the drastic drop in range that he's getting.  As I explained before, I can't charge as much in cold weather but the miles per kwh are not far off at all.  It definitely isn't effected by wet roads and high winds enough to notice 😂  That's hilarious.
You see a later post I've made of my kwh last night when I was driving like a mooron.    My car is nothing special (especially when his is a hyundai too) I personally think he maybe has something running he's not aware of or the kona is in fact different to the iconic.   Can't see why there's a difference when it's the same operating system and his car is more aerodynamic than mine
		
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I never siad it was causing his drastic drop in range, I always said I wouldn't expect anywhere near increase in wh/mile he's experiencing. Just saying that the vast majority of EV drivers notice an increase in consumption in the winter and the reasons for it, or at least in my experience anyway from running an EV for a few winters.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2022)

Interested to see what the latest update for the car does , ATM we can only precondition if the battery is over 50% which is a pain in the sense that sometimes on say your second trip to work in winter you will be on 45% .. then you just want to charge .. so end up charging nightly regardless

However the update apparently lets you precondition lower which would be great 

My work is 50 mile round trip which I can do 2 and a half times in winter or pushing it 3 .. 

Summer can do 3.5 times or 4 at a push ..

My part has finally arrived in the country , fitting in 4th January.. will see if the update is ready for me


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## GreiginFife (Dec 20, 2022)

Just priced a KIA EV6 (GT Line AWD, so not even the top spec) and they want £856pm on their PCP and that's with a £5k deposit.

In perspective, I pay £710 per month on a top spec BMW 840i Gran Coupe and I was paying £720 pm on a fully specced up M340i. Both of which are far more fun to drive.
they need to look at the pricing structures if a £51k car is that much per month, completely disproportionate.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Just priced a KIA EV6 (GT Line AWD, so not even the top spec) and they want £856pm on their PCP and that's with a £5k deposit.

In perspective, I pay £710 per month on a top spec BMW 840i Gran Coupe and I was paying £720 pm on a fully specced up M340i. Both of which are far more fun to drive.
they need to look at the pricing structures if a £51k car is that much per month, completely disproportionate.
		
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For true comparison what would the price be on PCP etc for those 2 car now . With the interest rate rise and prices of cars going up would it be 710


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## GreiginFife (Dec 20, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			For true comparison what would the price be on PCP etc for those 2 car now . With the interest rate rise and prices of cars going up would it be 710
		
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Whilst the base price of the car has risen slightly, BMW are actually offering lower interest to what I got (4.9% vs 5.1%) and so with that base price increase the same terms that I got would be £739 pm. So it's up slightly but still lower than what Kia are offering.

I can't comment on the M340i as the actual car is not the same now so is not comparable in current form. But is still cheaper regardless.

Edit, the new MHT M340i with the same upgrades would be £704 pm (interest rate 3.6% vs 4.4% that I had). Not the same car though as mine does not have mild hybrid.


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## Slime (Dec 20, 2022)

Still no.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 20, 2022)

Slime said:



			Still no.
		
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I really do want to. I was behind and along side an EV6 earlier and liked the look, hence pricing it. 

The i4 has gone up £6k whilst most ICE models (BMW at least) average about £3k increase. 

The gouging has started already. 

I’ll see out the PCP on the 8er and probably still go i4 but that’s 2024 instead of 2023 as planned.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2022)

Has anyone driven one of the Genesis models? I saw them at the Scottish Open and they looked very nice. I'd be interested to hear real world experiences of them.


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## Neilds (Dec 21, 2022)

Just read a report on the web that states there are only 3 models in the UK that cost less than £30k new 😳😮


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Just read a report on the web that states there are only 3 models in the UK that cost less than £30k new 😳😮
		
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As with everything the price rockets 

Im only 35 but I remember buying 2 of my cars brand new for 8k and 10k respectively .. there 8k one is about 12k starting now and the 10k one doesn't exist or have a comparable car in their range

But I remember paying 15k for a second hand BMW 3 series that was 3 years old ..similar model 24k 3 years old now 

Those 30k will be the MGs but when your ford focus which is a very good but should be reasonable price car starts at 26k that mg for 4k more doesn't look so bad


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			I really do want to. I was behind and along side an EV6 earlier and liked the look, hence pricing it. 

The i4 has gone up £6k whilst most ICE models (BMW at least) average about £3k increase. 

The gouging has started already. 

I’ll see out the PCP on the 8er and probably still go i4 but that’s 2024 instead of 2023 as planned.
		
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Tesla really not appeal to you? Apparently they are on a stock clearance of showroom products which give 5k off and then give 6000 miles of free charging on their network


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## GreiginFife (Dec 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Tesla really not appeal to you? Apparently they are on a stock clearance of showroom products which give 5k off and then give 6000 miles of free charging on their network
		
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Nope, I like the look of the Model S but not the price or the tablet controls system (frequently drive a friends).

Also not keen on funding the increasingly unhinged lunatic that is Musk.


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## larmen (Dec 21, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Im only 35 but I remember buying 2 of my cars brand new for 8k and 10k respectively .. there 8k one is about 12k starting now and the 10k one doesn't exist or have a comparable car in their range

But I remember paying 15k for a second hand BMW 3 series that was 3 years old ..similar model 24k 3 years old now

Those 30k will be the MGs but when your ford focus which is a very good but should be reasonable price car starts at 26k that mg for 4k more doesn't look so bad
		
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Just had a look at what I would need to replace my 57 plate Ford Focus. 1st of all, Ford seemed to have removed the Focus from their line up. But the 'equivalent' car now costs 29k in the base version.
I paid between 16k or 17k for a nearly fully specked mid range trim version with a larger petrol engine. It's getting a bit squeaky now, but we have done just 35k miles on it so it will have to do until we don't make ULEZ standard anymore.

I think the next people that will/have to move towards EVs are people with diesel cars that will fail the ULEZ standard.


I still want one, but not at his kind of money ;-)


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Nope, I like the look of the Model S but not the price or the tablet controls system (frequently drive a friends).

Also not keen on funding the increasingly unhinged lunatic that is Musk.
		
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Yeah he is mad but also his tech is fantastic .. that battery my god 

But fair enough if you don't like it you don't like it


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2022)

larmen said:



			Just had a look at what I would need to replace my 57 plate Ford Focus. 1st of all, Ford seemed to have removed the Focus from their line up. But the 'equivalent' car now costs 29k in the base version.
I paid between 16k or 17k for a nearly fully specked mid range trim version with a larger petrol engine. It's getting a bit squeaky now, but we have done just 35k miles on it so it will have to do until we don't make ULEZ standard anymore.

I think the next people that will/have to move towards EVs are people with diesel cars that will fail the ULEZ standard.


I still want one, but not at his kind of money ;-)
		
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Until they change the standard it will be a while 2005 petrol and 2016 diesels are a good age of car to choose from


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608107998895034368
Seems like it’s a common scene at the moment up and down service stations

The one near her had queues of 2 hours waiting to put 30 mins of charge in

Not sure what is causing it at the moment - maybe volume of traffic

This is another services


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## Captainron (Dec 29, 2022)

Not worth owning a fully EV at present. Give it 10 years and then it will probably be fine and they will do a proper amount of mileage. 

Mate of mine hates his Tesla in winter as he only gets about 60% mileage on a charge versus warmer months. He would burn it if f he could


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 29, 2022)

Someone I know has recently got rid of their 4 and a bit yr old Tesla. Apparently it was due a huge costly service that was a "rediculous" amount according to the owner, who isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination. He's had it from new, bought outright. He sold it and changed to a Toyota hybrid, which he loves.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 29, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 45735

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608107998895034368
Seems like it’s a common scene at the moment up and down service stations

The one near her had queues of 2 hours waiting to put 30 mins of charge in

Not sure what is causing it at the moment - maybe volume of traffic

This is another services
		
Click to expand...

Just idiots who haven’t coughed up a couple of hundred quid for a CCS adaptor or retrofit and relying solely on a proprietary charger and it’s lack of chargers.
The photos aren't a reflection of the EV charging network. They're photos of idiots.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 29, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Just idiots who haven’t coughed up a couple of hundred quid for a CCS adaptor or retrofit and relying solely on a proprietary charger and it’s lack of chargers.
The photos aren't a reflection of the EV charging network. They're photos of idiots.
		
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lectron-Co...cphy=9044948&hvtargid=pla-1748389617964&psc=1

Whilst they may be stupid, not all are. Some just may not be informed enough to know.

A lot of people getting EVs now just use them like a normal car (like you should be able to) but unless you have a little bit of knowledge you can get stumped at what seem simple things.


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## Jason.H (Dec 29, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Someone I know has recently got rid of their 4 and a bit yr old Tesla. Apparently it was due a huge costly service that was a "rediculous" amount according to the owner, who isn't poor by any stretch of the imagination. He's had it from new, bought outright. He sold it and changed to a Toyota hybrid, which he loves.
		
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My friend is a master technician and owns his own garage and he does specialise in EV,s. He said he’s amazed at main dealer service charges on the EV,s because there’s about half the labour and far less parts to change ect.


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## Smiffy (Dec 30, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Mate of mine hates his Tesla in winter as he only gets about 60% mileage on a charge versus warmer months. He would burn it if f he could 

Click to expand...

Driving home from Herne Bay the other week in temperatures of -2 and not being able to put the heating on due to range anxiety has put me off of mine. I had to wear the wife's wooly gloves and put her scarf over my knees to keep warm...😱😱😱
Dangerous with the interior of the windscreen misting up, god knows what we'd have done if the washers had frozen up as well!!!! Absolute joke.
I've gone back to a petrol for now. You can poke your EV's.


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## Matty6 (Jan 2, 2023)

8 months in owning an etron and tbh, loving it. It suits our needs down to the ground. One thing I’ve been surprised about though is tyre wear. I’ve just had to replace all 4 tyres after 12k miles. I admit I tend to have a bit of a lead boot at times, and an etron suv is a very heavy car, but I’d still expect tyres to last longer than 12k. 

I had Continental Silents fitted and they are super quiet and smooth. I had Bridgestones previously which I was happy with but the Continentals are a step up again.


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## Jason.H (Jan 2, 2023)

I’d quite happily have a Tesla Model Y Performance but we would still need an ICE car for our long journeys. I wouldn’t be doing with charging anxiety .  😅


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## pauljames87 (Jan 2, 2023)

Matty6 said:



			8 months in owning an etron and tbh, loving it. It suits our needs down to the ground. One thing I’ve been surprised about though is tyre wear. I’ve just had to replace all 4 tyres after 12k miles. I admit I tend to have a bit of a lead boot at times, and an etron suv is a very heavy car, but I’d still expect tyres to last longer than 12k.

I had Continental Silents fitted and they are super quiet and smooth. I had Bridgestones previously which I was happy with but the Continentals are a step up again.
		
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guess the more the weight of the car will be a factor, im still on my original tyres on the corsa. 2 years plenty of tread left .. 20,000 miles 

will be looking for something bigger in 2025 when its due for renewal


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## JamesR (Jan 2, 2023)

Question: if a household has a Tesla and another electric car, from another brand, do you need 2 separate chargers at your house?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 2, 2023)

JamesR said:



			Question: if a household has a Tesla and another electric car, from another brand, do you need 2 separate chargers at your house?
		
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No, 99% of EVs use type 2 chargers 

If you did buy one that used type 1 (old old leaf) you simply get a non tethered charger and then any lead would fit in it 

However now days with everyone else type 2 a simple tethered charger suits all

Quick update on that , apparently the Tesla older wall box is fussier but the new one is universal . Brands like podpoint and zappi you won't get issue with

https://rightcharge.co.uk/charger/tesla-wall-connector/


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2023)

Got this for today and tomorrow 

Dropped mine to vauxhall this morning for a spot of warranty work and a software update 

Apparently the anniversary edition, 40 years.. with same colour scheme as back then aha awful 

But some good software update improvements on mine (22 this one 20 mine)

Can actually see the battery % but then all the other models had that, they overlooked on their first attempt 

No gear stick on this one .. little switch 

Nice tho 

Downgrade on mine as the screen is smaller with less features but I heard my models been discontinued


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## larmen (Jan 4, 2023)

You will take passengers with you just so you don’t have to look at that seat.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2023)

larmen said:



			You will take passengers with you just so you don’t have to look at that seat.
		
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Make you right lol 

Luckily my car should be all done in morning they only needed a day but I'm nights so they gave me the car for 2 days 

The no gear stick is weird on it.. little push button selection where it used to be


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 4, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			Make you right lol

Luckily my car should be all done in morning they only needed a day but I'm nights so they gave me the car for 2 days

The no gear stick is weird on it.. little push button selection where it used to be
		
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You think that’s weird?
Look at the VW ID3/4/5 but you soon get used to it 👍


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2023)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You think that’s weird?
Look at the VW ID3/4/5 but you soon get used to it 👍
		
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Yeah they are spacey .. nice looking cars tho


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2023)

My sons got an ID5.
Fantastic car but £60K


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 5, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah they are spacey .. nice looking cars tho
		
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I was referring to the position of the drive selector, 😂


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			My sons got an ID5.
Fantastic car but £60K
		
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Or £43,995

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...tising-location=at_cars&year-from=2018&page=2


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2023)

bobmac said:



			Or £43,995

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212312861853?model=ID.5&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&newCarHasDeal=on&include-delivery-option=on&make=Volkswagen&sort=price-desc&advertising-location=at_cars&year-from=2018&page=2

Click to expand...

That’s the basic model they just about give you a steering wheel with that one.
But it’s £44K


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## BiMGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s the basic model they just about give you a steering wheel with that one.
*But it’s £44K*

Click to expand...

Which nobody will ever pay. 99.99999999% of people don’t buy new cars outright, so the only thing that really matters is the monthly cost and value at the end of the lease/PCP/whatever.


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## Aztecs27 (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			My sons got an ID5.
Fantastic car but £60K
		
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Look at the Skoda Enyaq instead. Same car, different badge. 

I've got one coming in July.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2023)

BiMGuy said:



			Which nobody will ever pay. 99.99999999% of people don’t buy new cars outright, so the only thing that really matters is the monthly cost and value at the end of the lease/PCP/whatever.
		
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And since a leased car never offsets the CO emissions created during manufacturing it makes leasing an EV “environmentally irresponsible”


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s the basic model they just about give you a steering wheel with that one.
But it’s £44K
		
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I was merely pointing out to those who may not know that you don't have to spend £60k to get an ID5.
Just like you don't have to pay £50k to get a petrol Golf.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2023)

will the government backtrack on 2030 ban? Lots of issues to make this work properly

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/209...-electric-vehicle-deadline-economic-disaster/


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## banjofred (Jan 5, 2023)

BiMGuy said:



			Which nobody will ever pay. 99.99999999% of people don’t buy new cars outright, so the only thing that really matters is the monthly cost and value at the end of the lease/PCP/whatever.
		
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Nice to know I'm a really special person since I buy outright.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2023)

banjofred said:



			Nice to know I'm a really special person since I buy outright. 

Click to expand...

me too!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2023)

banjofred said:



			Nice to know I'm a really special person since I buy outright. 

Click to expand...

Me to.
I have never used credit to buy a car.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2023)

bobmac said:



			I was merely pointing out to those who may not know that you don't have to spend £60k to get an ID5.
Just like you don't have to pay £50k to get a petrol Golf.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I realise that Bob .
But the basic spec is £44k 
The price of EVs is just ridiculous and seems to be getting higher not coming down like we expected.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I realise that Bob .
But the basic spec is £44k 
The price of EVs is just ridiculous and seems to be getting higher not coming down like we expected.
		
Click to expand...

If it wasn't for supply issues and inflation they would be


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			If it wasn't for supply issues and inflation they would be
		
Click to expand...

I dought that. But we will see.
Prices that have rocketed due to outside influences be it supermarkets ,pubs or cars won’t go back to pre war prices.
There has been a lot of profiteering imo.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2023)

clubchamp98 said:



			I dought that. But we will see.
Prices that have rocketed due to outside influences be it supermarkets ,pubs or cars won’t go back to pre war prices.
There has been a lot of profiteering imo.
		
Click to expand...

Supply and demand tho

They will drop

Car wow for example you can get great deals on your cars dealers compete for your business we saved 5k off one of our cars

But ATM because supply is so sparse the deals are RRP and that's it


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## larmen (Jan 5, 2023)

Does the MG pull other prices down, long term? It seems good enough and cheaper than the rest. Why buy an ID4or similar if you can get a decent car for less.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2023)

larmen said:



			Does the MG pull other prices down, long term? It seems good enough and cheaper than the rest. Why buy an ID4or similar if you can get a decent car for less.
		
Click to expand...

Does the price of a Ssang Yong Tivoli bring down the price of a BMW 1 Series? No,  because most people don’t want “good enough” they want cars with style and decent engineering.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 6, 2023)

Fade and Die said:



			Does the price of a Ssang Yong Tivoli bring down the price of a BMW 1 Series? No,  because most people don’t want “good enough” they want cars with style and decent engineering.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say, that my wife had a Tivoli, 4x4 diesels auto and it was a fantastic car, fully loaded with a superb Diesel engine. The reason we got rid is that spares costs (mainly brake pads) were overly expensive and difficult to get. However I haven’t yet seen an ev MG that has green window glass. That to me is just so cheap and nasty I wouldn’t  even look inside at them. The Tivoli was miles better in comparison.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2023)

Fade and Die said:



			Does the price of a Ssang Yong Tivoli bring down the price of a BMW 1 Series? No,  because most people don’t want “good enough” they want cars with style and decent engineering.
		
Click to expand...

Massive illusion tho, brand snobbery

Remember when the Skoda superb estate was launched at a car show without a badge and everyone picked it as the car to have .. then found out was Skoda and bias set in

Think your underestimating the mg .. very popular now. People want affordable aswell as the above 

The mg5 is everywhere as the private hire car of choice


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			Massive illusion tho, brand snobbery

Remember when the Skoda superb estate was launched at a car show without a badge and everyone picked it as the car to have .. then found out was Skoda and bias set in

Think your underestimating the mg .. very popular now. People want affordable aswell as the above

The mg5 is everywhere as the private hire car of choice
		
Click to expand...

It’s a bit off topic as I was responding to Larmen’s question asking would the price of the MG pull the price of other EVs down. 

The two cars I mentioned the Ssang Yong and the BMW are both cars I have recently looked at as we need to replace my wife old diesel Pug because of the expanding ULEZ. Both cars are very good, but they are poles apart quality and style wise. ( All imo of course)

in regards to the MG, it’s usp is that it’s (relatively) cheap so it’s obviously the cabby car of choice, you know in London every 3rd car is an Uber Prius. Doesn’t mean i would want to buy one.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2023)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s a bit off topic as I was responding to Larmen’s question asking would the price of the MG pull the price of other EVs down.

The two cars I mentioned the Ssang Yong and the BMW are both cars I have recently looked at as we need to replace my wife old diesel Pug because of the expanding ULEZ. Both cars are very good, but they are poles apart quality and style wise. ( All imo of course)

in regards to the MG, it’s usp is that it’s (relatively) cheap so it’s obviously the cabby car of choice, you know in London every 3rd car is an Uber Prius. Doesn’t mean i would want to buy one.
		
Click to expand...

You're going to be spoilt for choice this year with all the new cars being released, especially from China.

Sadly, most of which will be big SUVs, mainly aimed at the US market.


----------



## larmen (Jan 6, 2023)

bobmac said:



			You're going to be spoilt for choice this year with all the new cars being released, especially from China.

Sadly, most of which will be big SUVs, mainly aimed at the US market.
		
Click to expand...

Fully Charged has just released a video with upcoming models. The prices will decide if they are a good step. The Astra is a decent car if it stays reasonable, I think.

I mentioned the MG as it is 'cheap' and lots of reviewers have it rated highly. It's not your Lada instead of a beamer, it is a very good car, just not luxury.
It seems to sell well, and if people move to it instead of paying 10k extra for a VW or whatever, maybe that could pull it down a little.
People that want a BMW will not get one, but they don't shop by price anyway. It's the family car market I am thinking about. A reliable good car that takes you around, not one that your neighbours look at on your driveway.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 6, 2023)

Why would anyone overlook the massive Chinese on many of the ev offerings?. I certainly wouldn't buy a car from China, no matter what the badge was.


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## Smiffy (Jan 6, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			Massive illusion tho, brand snobbery
		
Click to expand...

You're not wrong.
One of the best cars I've ever driven was a Peugeot 308 GT Line HDi Auto.
Fast, comfortable, economical and very rapid for a diesel.
Hardly sold new, if it had been given a VW or Ford badge, it would have become a best seller.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2023)

Smiffy said:



			You're not wrong.
One of the best cars I've ever driven was a Peugeot 308 GT Line HDi Auto.
Fast, comfortable, economical and very rapid for a diesel.
Hardly sold new, if it had been given a VW or Ford badge, it would have become a best seller.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah never judge a car by its badge for sure 

I mean a lot do live up to stereotypes lol 

But not all 

BMW aren't all their cracked up to be . Just pay for the badge (owned one of them)

Vw are decent 

Seat underated 

I defo wont be writing off MG, some of the best EV around and so cheap .. changing the game


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## PNWokingham (Jan 6, 2023)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah never judge a car by its badge for sure

I mean a lot do live up to stereotypes lol

But not all

BMW aren't all their cracked up to be . Just pay for the badge (owned one of them)

Vw are decent

Seat underated

I defo wont be writing off MG, some of the best EV around and so cheap .. changing the game
		
Click to expand...

I have had several bmw's. And they are nearly always best in class. Superb cars. So you are wrong on that


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## PNWokingham (Tuesday at 11:57 AM)

the wheels are falling off!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-ev-fast-charging-costs-soar-above-petrol


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## pauljames87 (Tuesday at 12:08 PM)

PNWokingham said:



			the wheels are falling off!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/average-ev-fast-charging-costs-soar-above-petrol

Click to expand...

However supercharging isn't as used. 

I'm yet to meet an EV owner who uses it regularly

All charge at home 

Its the same as motorway petrol.. overpriced 

Mainly because home electric is 5% vat and supercharging is 20% vat.

All factored into average costs tho 

If you drive miles and need 1 home charge and one super charge your average is still well below petrol.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...tric-vehicle-chargers-installed-in-uk-in-2022

Growing

Tesco now charge 27p a Kw for a charge on the 7kw chargers that's still 8p cheaper than the normal day rate so lot of people use them


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## Slime (Tuesday at 12:12 PM)

My dirty diesel cost about £2500 to buy, does over 500 miles on a full tank, which only takes a couple of minutes to fill every two or three weeks, and can do over 60mpg.
EV's don't even come remotely close.

So, it's still a no from me.


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## pauljames87 (Tuesday at 12:24 PM)

Slime said:



			My dirty diesel cost about £2500 to buy, does over 500 miles on a full tank, which only takes a couple of minutes to fill every two or three weeks, and can do over 60mpg.
EV's don't even come remotely close.

So, it's still a no from me.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.theifod.com/what-is-the-most-efficient-form-of-transportation-on-the-planet/

Well if you go by efficiency of travel diesel is 3rd only behind bike and EV .. quite a way though

Still diesel a fantastic form of transport for now .. each to their own but ev is defo becoming the now rather than the future 

They outsold new diesel last year and think December they outsold new petrol

Quick add, EV are like heat pumps, they are great if they suit yourself. But If you have a perfectly working boiler you ain't gonna change

If your set up is perfect for them (good insulation/ home charging ) then the option will be better long term they are so much more efficient

For example a boiler is what 80% efficient, heat pump 350% (only because it takes 2kw energy in to output 9kw of heat) 

But until external factors are fixed ie the charging network and insulation then they won't be for everyone

Oh and cost but both are coming down


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## Fade and Die (Tuesday at 2:14 PM)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.theifod.com/what-is-the-most-efficient-form-of-transportation-on-the-planet/

Well if you go by efficiency of travel diesel is 3rd only behind bike and EV .. quite a way though

Still diesel a fantastic form of transport for now .. each to their own but ev is defo becoming the now rather than the future

They outsold new diesel last year and think December they outsold new petrol

Quick add, EV are like heat pumps, they are great if they suit yourself. But If you have a perfectly working boiler you ain't gonna change

If your set up is perfect for them (good insulation/ home charging ) then the option will be better long term they are so much more efficient

For example a boiler is what 80% efficient, *heat pump 350% (only because it takes 2kw energy in to output 9kw of heat)*

But until external factors are fixed ie the charging network and insulation then they won't be for everyone

Oh and cost but both are coming down
		
Click to expand...

Do you have a link for that stat mate? (Seems a bit pie in the sky)


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## pauljames87 (Tuesday at 2:25 PM)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you have a link for that stat mate? (Seems a bit pie in the sky)
		
Click to expand...

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2...ample, a typical air,kWh of heat is generated.

Section 6

For example, a typical air source heat pump runs at a COP 3.2 when the outside temperature is above 7°C. This means that the heat pump is 320% efficient: for each kWh of electricity used by the fans and the compressor, 3.2 kWh of heat is generated. The higher the COP, the better. 

Don't get me wrong not knocking boilers they do a fantastic job and a heat pump is rubbish for me ATM 

I need solid wall insulation (saving for)

Then I will use less gas. But I don't have space for a tank ... So heat pump until their combi standards of hot water are out for me

I did do my own experiment with the boiler Vs my HVACs .. did 20 degree on HVAc basically all day and it cost me the same as 2 hours of gas (based on 34p electric and 10p gas)


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## clubchamp98 (Tuesday at 3:43 PM)

Just bought a Vw t cross petrol.
The people I know who have EV s have put me off them.

Posted a few weeks ago my lad has a onboard charging problem ,the dealer still hasn’t got the parts 5 weeks later.
He’s lucky he has another car to use.
Seeing all the problems made my mind up.
I will buy one when they sort all the problems out but at 66 yrs old I may never see that.


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## BiMGuy (Tuesday at 4:10 PM)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just bought a Vw t cross petrol.
The people I know who have EV s have put me off them.

Posted a few weeks ago my lad has a onboard charging problem ,the dealer still hasn’t got the parts 5 weeks later.
He’s lucky he has another car to use.
Seeing all the problems made my mind up.
I will buy one when they sort all the problems out but at 66 yrs old I may never see that.
		
Click to expand...

Are there no problems with ICE cars anymore?


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## pauljames87 (Tuesday at 4:18 PM)

BiMGuy said:



			Are there no problems with ICE cars anymore?
		
Click to expand...

I'll argue that tbh the problems with EV are worse because they haven't trained enough techs to know how to fix them / be free to fix them 

Plus the parts are harder to come by ATM because there is less EV so less parts made

And I'm massively pro EV

I've had the charger issue. Took 3 months to arrive. Its being fitted atm taken a week because they are missing a clip 

However I just make them loan me an EV rather than petrol until it's done then I don't mind


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## clubchamp98 (Tuesday at 4:21 PM)

BiMGuy said:



			Are there no problems with ICE cars anymore?
		
Click to expand...

Of course there are but this thread is about EVs .
My son has a problem with his EV s onboard charger.
The dealer has been trying to get the part for five weeks.
The car is stuck in his driveway not able to move as it can’t be charged.
He then has to go on a waiting list for the part to be fitted.

Most problems with ice cars can be sorted a lot quicker than that imo.


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## Whereditgo (Tuesday at 5:15 PM)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2016/02/pros-and-cons-of-air-source-heat-pumps#:~:text=High Seasonal Coefficient of Performance (SCOP)&text=For example, a typical air,kWh of heat is generated.

Section 6

For example, a typical air source heat pump runs at a COP 3.2 when the outside temperature is above 7°C. This means that the heat pump is 320% efficient: for each kWh of electricity used by the fans and the compressor, 3.2 kWh of heat is generated. The higher the COP, the better.

Don't get me wrong not knocking boilers they do a fantastic job and a heat pump is rubbish for me ATM

I need solid wall insulation (saving for)

Then I will use less gas. But I don't have space for a tank ... So heat pump until their combi standards of hot water are out for me

I did do my own experiment with the boiler Vs my HVACs .. did 20 degree on HVAc basically all day and it cost me the same as 2 hours of gas (based on 34p electric and 10p gas)
		
Click to expand...

Not quite the full story though, the COP the manufacturers quote are at output temperatures of around 35 deg C, so the space heat emitters need to be much larger than on a traditional hot water heating system and domestic hot water at that temperature is not hot enough. Also the efficiency does fall off quite dramatically below +5 deg C, especially in the UK where we have high humidity because the heat exchanger begins to build up frost which reduces the output dramatically until the system need to switch to reverse cycle to defrost.


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## pauljames87 (Tuesday at 5:22 PM)

Whereditgo said:



			Not quite the full story though, the COP the manufacturers quote are at output temperatures of around 35 deg C, so the space heat emitters need to be much larger than on a traditional hot water heating system and domestic hot water at that temperature is not hot enough. Also the efficiency does fall off quite dramatically below +5 deg C, especially in the UK where we have high humidity because the heat exchanger begins to build up frost which reduces the output dramatically until the system need to switch to reverse cycle to defrost.
		
Click to expand...

All very true, altho with correct insulation levels radiators don't need to be too big. My house for example tho all but 1 rad is a double convector anyways so wouldnt need to upgrade the others 

The under 5 degree is very true however the drop off still would make it more efficient compared .. 320% is the mpg figure in the show room 

Real world if it's 200% it wouldn't be a bad thing would it? Compared to 80% that's not bad at all 

Still prefer a boiler for me ATM tho


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## bobmac (Tuesday at 5:27 PM)

Sodium-ion batteries look interesting


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## cliveb (Tuesday at 6:20 PM)

clubchamp98 said:



			Most problems with ice cars can be sorted a lot quicker than that imo.
		
Click to expand...

There can be shortages of parts for ICE cars, too.
A few years ago my wife's Skoda Fabia put itself into limp-home mode because of a fault with the turbo wastegate actuator.
It spent about 2 months at the dealer waiting for a replacement.
The exact same part is used on various VWs, Seats and Audis, and apparently there were over 400 people in the UK waiting for one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Tuesday at 6:49 PM)

https://www.facebook.com/reel/433564585658499?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V


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## PNWokingham (Tuesday at 7:35 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.facebook.com/reel/433564585658499?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Click to expand...

The whole issue is nuanced and opaque and I think we are rushing too fast into it. It will take over no doubt by pure economics and I think they should get rid of all these targets like 2030, that could really harm the economy and  they only have months to do this to stop the manufacturers betting everything on something that will be a decade too soon. Let it take over naturally and allow manufacturing, electric production capacity (no where near enough for targets set), battery technology etc to advance. Too much prescriptive control from the centre rushing to a target that is not clear


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## Fade and Die (Tuesday at 8:02 PM)

PNWokingham said:



			The whole issue is nuanced and opaque and I think we are rushing too fast into it. It will take over no doubt by pure economics and I think they should get rid of all these targets like 2030, that could really harm the economy and  they only have months to do this to stop the manufacturers betting everything on something that will be a decade too soon. Let it take over naturally and allow manufacturing, electric production capacity (no where near enough for targets set), battery technology etc to advance. Too much prescriptive control from the centre rushing to a target that is not clear
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this. It’s the whole feeling of being forced into buying an expensive EV that gets people’s backs up. The product should sell itself, when it’s good enough people will want it. People ditched steam for diesel because it was obviously a better alternative, cheaper, more efficient and safer. When EVs are all these things people will flock to it. 
Scrap the 2030 deadline, the product is not fit for purpose yet.


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## clubchamp98 (Tuesday at 8:07 PM)

cliveb said:



			There can be shortages of parts for ICE cars, too.
A few years ago my wife's Skoda Fabia put itself into limp-home mode because of a fault with the turbo wastegate actuator.
It spent about 2 months at the dealer waiting for a replacement.
The exact same part is used on various VWs, Seats and Audis, and apparently there were over 400 people in the UK waiting for one.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I am sure ice cars are having problems.
Mainly due to chips .
Cars are just to complicated now.


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## BiMGuy (Tuesday at 8:09 PM)

cliveb said:



			There can be shortages of parts for ICE cars, too.
A few years ago my wife's Skoda Fabia put itself into limp-home mode because of a fault with the turbo wastegate actuator.
It spent about 2 months at the dealer waiting for a replacement.
The exact same part is used on various VWs, Seats and Audis, and apparently there were over 400 people in the UK waiting for one.
		
Click to expand...

I waited 2 months for a part for my diesel 5 Series after a safety recall with my car locked in a BMW compound. And the same part is now the reason for a second recall!


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## Robster59 (Tuesday at 8:34 PM)

When my missus was looking for her next car, we looked at all the options.  It's far more complex than it used to be, that's for sure.

Diesel - Uncertainty about future path of legislation and differential between petrol and diesel prices getting larger.
Petrol - Fuel prices increasing, future legislation uncertain.
Full Hybrid - She doesn't do enough mileage to keep the onboard batteries charged.
Plug-In Hybrid - Still too expensive in our price range.  A pity as we have a home charger for my company plug-in hybrid.
Full Electric - See Plug-In Hybrid.
In the end, we went for a Kia Sportage 1.6 Petrol.  Very comfortable, well-equipped.  Not great MPG but she doesn't do a great mileage (I think she does <2000 miles per year nowadays).  In reality, a Plug-In Hybrid of Full Electric would be ideal for her mileage, but cost ruled them out.

For company car tax reasons, I chose the Plug-In Hybrid.  My company paid for the home charger installation, and reimburse me for the electrical charging costs.  But non-fiscally, the ICE engined car actually gave me more in terms of MPG and distance that can be covered on a full tank.  And also boot space, as the electric gubbins takes up a fair bit of boot space in my PHEV.


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## BiMGuy (Tuesday at 8:44 PM)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.facebook.com/reel/433564585658499?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Click to expand...

That looks like the sort of video one needs to sit watching whilst wearing a tinfoil hat.


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## Tashyboy (Tuesday at 10:59 PM)

Out of interest I was driving past Sheffield yesterday and there a part of the M1 near Meadowhall that is 60 mph max speed limit for “ air quality” reasons. So why is it 60 and not 70 mph for zero emission vehicles. I get speed cameras are set at what the speed limit is but as soon as a vehicles reg pops up for a speeding car surely they would know it is a zero emission vehicle.


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## pauljames87 (Wednesday at 12:01 AM)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.facebook.com/reel/433564585658499?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

Click to expand...

This video is complete and utter balderdash

Who even is this "expert?" The fact they are investing into new types of batteries that don't need the stuff being mined for here is one fact 

Ice cars don't just produce themselves with magic fairy dust, they take emissions to make and extra EV emissions over the life of a car are much less than ice cars . 

Fake news like this needs to be called out.

Twoddle 

Now what @PNWokingham  was saying about moving targets and such yes that should happen as the network is not ready as it's been held back and tech whilst great isn't fully ready for everyone 

So move the deadline but actually work towards it not half hearted like it has been. Changing the law on car park chargers (all needed them , then it was just new ones) the powers that be need to set a date and all work towards it not turn off petrol manufacturer with one hand and hold back EV etc with the other hand 

People slate china but when you actually look into their emission policy they have set a much more achievable and realistic 2050 policy which they are working towards






Actual video from someone with proper knowledge on the subject who says even hydrogen isn't the way forward for most things.. it's time to accept that EV is the way for most people ...petrol needs to be stopped as much as possible. It wont go on forever , but posting absolute balderdash fake news and trying to pass it off as a point? What does it achieve..nothing but spread misinformation

If people put half as much effort into trying to find solutions for the future as they do trashing what's already on the cars maybe we would find a better way ..








Right now 70% of the energy on the grid is wind power and we are producing 113% of demand so are exporting 




We have so much spare octupus are paying their agile customers to use energy now 

So all those EVs plugged in overnight are running off green energy..

The problem with balderdash like that video is that one video will cause more damage to people's misconceptions than any amount of researched videos will because people love snappy videos that back up what they want to believe rather than what's true.


----------



## bobmac (Wednesday at 7:30 AM)

Fade and Die said:



			Scrap the 2030 deadline, *the product is not fit for purpose yet.*

Click to expand...

Luckily, it doesn't have to be as the deadline is still 7 years away.
And even then, the ban is only for the sale of *NEW* ICE cars.
Keep driving your ICE car as long as you want.
Did any one actually watch the video I linked to in post no. 3420?


----------



## pauljames87 (Wednesday at 7:38 AM)

bobmac said:



			Luckily, it doesn't have to be as the deadline is still 7 years away.
And even then, the ban is only for the sale of *NEW* ICE cars.
Keep driving your ICE car as long as you want.
Did any one actually watch the video I linked to in post no. 3420?
		
Click to expand...

The one postive about the deadline is that manufactures are bringing out more and more options and are committing to them 

More options means more variety

More variety means cheaper prices 

Mg changed the game with distance traveled for price and have taken over the mini cab industry round here 

Rome wasn't built in a day




0730 am. Going into peak times 

Wind still 50% of our usage, we only producing 88% ourselfs but taking a fair bit from France as it's better to take their excess than fire up gas until needed 

Brilliant stuff


----------



## Fade and Die (Wednesday at 8:25 AM)

pauljames87 said:



			The one postive about the deadline is that manufactures are bringing out more and more options and are committing to them

More options means more variety

More variety means cheaper prices

Mg changed the game with distance traveled for price and have taken over the mini cab industry round here

Rome wasn't built in a day

View attachment 45910


0730 am. Going into peak times

Wind still 50% of our usage, we only producing 88% ourselfs but taking a fair bit from France as it's better to take their excess than fire up gas until needed

Brilliant stuff
		
Click to expand...

No mention of the 21% generated from Nuclear?

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/nuclear-generation.html


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## pauljames87 (Wednesday at 8:48 AM)

Fade and Die said:



			No mention of the 21% generated from Nuclear?

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/nuclear-generation.html

Click to expand...

it is there, its just out of screen shot. not on purpose. nuclear is part of the future and its much greener than gas

nuclear im a big fan of.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

thats the link


----------



## Fade and Die (Wednesday at 9:45 AM)

pauljames87 said:



			it is there, its just out of screen shot. not on purpose. nuclear is part of the future and its much greener than gas

nuclear im a big fan of.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

thats the link
		
Click to expand...

Using the gizmo further down it’s amazing how much we have weaned ourselves off Gas…


----------



## bobmac (Wednesday at 9:57 AM)

Why are EVs still so expensive?
The cost of Lithium may have something to do with it


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## cliveb (Wednesday at 10:19 AM)

Fade and Die said:



			Using the gizmo further down it’s amazing how much we have weaned ourselves off Gas…
		
Click to expand...

You're comparing last week to a whole year.
Given the amount of wind we've had recently it's hardly surprising that the proportion of generation from renewables is that much higher.


----------



## pauljames87 (Today at 2:40 PM)

The used market is about to get interesting 

Telsa dropping it's prices on the model 3 and model y





Let's see what the use market trickles down like 

The y is defo something that interests me when the big car needs replacing. Its a perfect family car


----------



## Neilds (Today at 2:47 PM)

Tashyboy said:



			Out of interest I was driving past Sheffield yesterday and there a part of the M1 near Meadowhall that is 60 mph max speed limit for “ air quality” reasons. So why is it 60 and not 70 mph for zero emission vehicles. I get speed cameras are set at what the speed limit is but as soon as a vehicles reg pops up for a speeding car surely they would know it is a zero emission vehicle.
		
Click to expand...

What makes me laugh about that stretch of the M1 is it is right where all the steel mills were until recently so the air is probably much cleaner now than it has been for many a year.  And what difference does the 3-4 mile stretch make anyway?


----------



## D-S (Today at 3:11 PM)

cliveb said:



			You're comparing last week to a whole year.
Given the amount of wind we've had recently it's hardly surprising that the proportion of generation from renewables is that much higher.
		
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 Wasn’t a great week for solar though.


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## pauljames87 (Today at 3:15 PM)

D-S said:



			Wasn’t a great week for solar though.
		
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Wait until the summer .. I average 20-25kw in summer .. so far today 4kw .. been a good winter day 

Covered all the tumble use


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## larmen (Today at 3:36 PM)

I have seen one of these hydrogen cars in the wild on Tuesday https://www.riversimple.com/ near Oxford circuit.
From a little away I could see something weird ahead and just caught up with it when I had to turn in for parking. Unfortunately my camera didn't capture it.


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## pauljames87 (Today at 3:43 PM)

larmen said:



			I have seen one of these hydrogen cars in the wild on Tuesday https://www.riversimple.com/ near Oxford circuit.
From a little away I could see something weird ahead and just caught up with it when I had to turn in for parking. Unfortunately my camera didn't capture it.
		
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Whilst they are said to be the future and people use them to say but they beat EV.. they have what 2 working fueling stations in the UK? 2 closed down recently and they cost even more than ev 

Use even more electric to make the hydrogen aswell so any arguement about ev not being green as what goes into it is exactly same problem 

Great cars tho hope they develop


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## Lord Tyrion (Today at 4:02 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst they are said to be the future and people use them to say but they beat EV.. they have what 2 working fueling stations in the UK? 2 closed down recently and they cost even more than ev 

Use even more electric to make the hydrogen aswell so any arguement about ev not being green as what goes into it is exactly same problem 

Great cars tho hope they develop
		
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They remove the issue of range anxiety and charging though. The other issues are there for electric and hydrogen but the more barriers you can take away, the better.


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## pauljames87 (Today at 4:03 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They remove the issue of range anxiety and charging though. The other issues are there for electric and hydrogen but the more barriers you can take away, the better.
		
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Well no if there are just 2 stations in the UK 150 miles apart that is pretty anxious


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## Bunkermagnet (Today at 4:04 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They remove the issue of range anxiety and charging though. The other issues are there for electric and hydrogen but the more barriers you can take away, the better.
		
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It's pointless commenting.


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## Lord Tyrion (Today at 4:06 PM)

Neilds said:



			What makes me laugh about that stretch of the M1 is it is right where all the steel mills were until recently so the air is probably much cleaner now than it has been for many a year.  And what difference does the 3-4 mile stretch make anyway?
		
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Is it a hollow? I drove along that stretch a few months ago, I can't remember seeing a similar thing before.


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## Lord Tyrion (Today at 4:08 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Well no if there are just 2 stations in the UK 150 miles apart that is pretty anxious
		
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Putting hydrogen into the fuel station network would be pretty simple. The infrastructure is largely there. Much easier than charge points. 

Clearly not there now but if it got half the investment that electric has got it would be flying.


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## Lord Tyrion (Today at 4:09 PM)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It's pointless commenting.
		
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I'll have a go. I'll not be long though 😄


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## Bunkermagnet (Today at 4:13 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Putting hydrogen into the fuel station network would be pretty simple. The infrastructure is largely there. Much easier than charge points.

Clearly not there now but if it got half the investment that electric has got it would be flying.
		
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Hyundai ran 4 IX35's quite a few years ago, but the hoped for refilling infrastructure was blocked. Green Tomato have  (or did) Toyota Mirai quite successfully. 
Consider this though, Toyota are late to the EV playing field as they consider hydrogen to be the way forward and where they have spent  millions on R&D.


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## pauljames87 (Today at 4:13 PM)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It's pointless commenting.
		
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Sorry just applying the same flawed points as are leveled at EVs for years ...

See how annoying it is?


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## Bunkermagnet (Today at 4:15 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry just applying the same flawed points as are leveled at EVs for years ...

See how annoying it is?
		
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You forgot the whole page images and copyrighted texts in your reply.


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## pauljames87 (Today at 4:21 PM)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You forgot the whole page images and copyrighted texts in your reply.
		
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Sorry are you 5 years old?


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## Lord Tyrion (Today at 4:28 PM)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Hyundai ran 4 IX35's quite a few years ago, but the hoped for refilling infrastructure was blocked. Green Tomato have  (or did) Toyota Mirai quite successfully. 
Consider this though, Toyota are late to the EV playing field as they consider hydrogen to be the way forward and where they have spent  millions on R&D.
		
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Interesting. Honda went big into it as well I believe. Fingers crossed, it's way more attractive to me than electric.


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## Bunkermagnet (Today at 4:29 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry are you 5 years old?
		
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I would be Kim Ung-Yong if I were comrade


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## cliveb (Today at 4:30 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Wait until the summer .. I average 20-25kw in summer .. so far today 4kw .. been a good winter day

Covered all the tumble use
		
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I can't quite figure out your position.
A lot of what you post suggests you're very much in favour of doing good for the environment.

And yet if you generated 4kWh in January, you must have had a nice sunny day.
In which case, why are you using a tumble drier? Washing should be hung out on sunny days. Failing to do so is hardly saving the planet.

In an earlier post, you admitted to using 9000kWh of electricity a year. Again, hardly saving the planet.

What exactly is your stance on this?


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## Tashyboy (Today at 4:34 PM)

Neilds said:



			What makes me laugh about that stretch of the M1 is it is right where all the steel mills were until recently so the air is probably much cleaner now than it has been for many a year.  And what difference does the 3-4 mile stretch make anyway?
		
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I couldn’t of put it better 👍


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## pauljames87 (Today at 4:41 PM)

cliveb said:



			I can't quite figure out your position.
A lot of what you post suggests you're very much in favour of doing good for the environment.

And yet if you generated 4kWh in January, you must have had a nice sunny day.
In which case, why are you using a tumble drier? Washing should be hung out on sunny days. Failing to do so is hardly saving the planet.

In an earlier post, you admitted to using 9000kWh of electricity a year. Again, hardly saving the planet.

What exactly is your stance on this?
		
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I load shift the majority of my usage into the hours where we have a large excess of green energy and solar provides my excess 

Washing doesn't go outside. We compromise, we have a heat pump tumble. That uses 1.5kw of energy per load. A normal tumble is double that, we do 10 loads of washing a week because of the kids so having it outside doesn't work well with us both working full time.

So a heat pump tumble is a compromise

Unfortunately my 25kw a day 9 kw a day is due to the base load in this house. Did a lot of investigation the freezers are the bulk of it. So when the kitchen is done will replace them .. it's that catch 22. Do you scrap them just to use less energy when they work?

So if my 9000kw 3285 is base load 
A fair chunk is the car (about 1000kw)

Trying to reduce it but gas is far worth imo so we reduce our gas by using the HVAC but that means more electric used. But at the expense of gas 

We used to put washing on the line returning to your original question but when we had 1 kid and My wife was off more . Unfortunately life gets in the way and when you leaving the house at 5am Just throwing it in the heat pump tumble is a lot easier (tumble uses on average 100kw a month so 1200 a year) 

Was easier before the kids when it was 3 washes a week now it's 10 washes on average 

I'm saving up for solid wall insulation, once that's in our gas will drop even further and even the electric drops as the HVAc won't work nearly as hard


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## pauljames87 (Today at 4:45 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting. Honda went big into it as well I believe. Fingers crossed, it's way more attractive to me than electric.
		
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I really hope they take off. Together EV and hydrogen will work wonders filling the void of ice cars 

EV suit a lot of people , especially now 250 range ones are becoming more common, couples with charging at home perfect for a lot of people (average daily drive is apparently 30 miles.. apparently) but then there is a people it doesn't suit. If they can have hydrogen boom ice can be confined to the past ... I mean oil will still be needed but least it won't be as much 

The future is very exciting.


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## Tashyboy (Today at 4:56 PM)

I saw a Hyundai the other day Ev6 I think it was. Looked gorgeous. Had a quick peruse on the net. Starts at £45k 😳 look like buying second hand in 20 years then ☹️


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## Tashyboy (Today at 4:58 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			Wait until the summer .. I average 20-25kw in summer .. so far today 4kw .. been a good winter day

Covered all the tumble use
		
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did me solar tariff feed in monday. Worst three months of the year made £200 plus.👍


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## Neilds (Today at 5:02 PM)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it a hollow? I drove along that stretch a few months ago, I can't remember seeing a similar thing before.
		
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Not a hollow, part is along the flyover. Really pointless idea


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## bobmac (Today at 5:14 PM)

Maybe one day, garages will have 2 ''pumps'', not for diesel and petrol but for EVs and hydrogen, but hydrogen will have to get a wriggle on as it's about 10 years behind EVs now.
There's one for sale on Autotrader.
2017 Toyota Mirai  35,750 miles £31,999 insurance group 45D

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...chad=Used&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&page=1

One of the many problems Hydrogen cars will have is lack of choice in filling up, you'll have to use a garage, therefor paying the govt. their chunk of tax. Ev owners who can will just charge at home, and those who can't will charge at the supermarket, gym, cinema, work, car parks etc anywhere with electricity. 

What are the chances of ICE car drivers switching to hydrogen which cost a lot more to buy, insure and fill up.


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## cliveb (Today at 5:23 PM)

pauljames87 said:



			I load shift the majority of my usage into the hours where we have a large excess of green energy and solar provides my excess

Washing doesn't go outside. We compromise, we have a heat pump tumble. That uses 1.5kw of energy per load. A normal tumble is double that, we do 10 loads of washing a week because of the kids so having it outside doesn't work well with us both working full time.

So a heat pump tumble is a compromise

Unfortunately my 25kw a day 9 kw a day is due to the base load in this house. Did a lot of investigation the freezers are the bulk of it. So when the kitchen is done will replace them .. it's that catch 22. Do you scrap them just to use less energy when they work?

So if my 9000kw 3285 is base load
A fair chunk is the car (about 1000kw)

Trying to reduce it but gas is far worth imo so we reduce our gas by using the HVAC but that means more electric used. But at the expense of gas

We used to put washing on the line returning to your original question but when we had 1 kid and My wife was off more . Unfortunately life gets in the way and when you leaving the house at 5am Just throwing it in the heat pump tumble is a lot easier (tumble uses on average 100kw a month so 1200 a year)

Was easier before the kids when it was 3 washes a week now it's 10 washes on average

I'm saving up for solid wall insulation, once that's in our gas will drop even further and even the electric drops as the HVAc won't work nearly as hard
		
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Fair enough. I guess you're doing all you can in light of your family circumstances. Ending up with 3 kids when you planned on 2 must have made a big difference.

My gut feeling is that replacing working freezers with more efficient ones is counter-productive. I wonder what the carbon footprint of manufacturing a freezer is? Must be equivalent to years of further use of your existing ones.


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## Bunkermagnet (Today at 5:24 PM)

bobmac said:



			Maybe one day, garages will have 2 ''pumps'', not for diesel and petrol but for EVs and hydrogen, but hydrogen will have to get a wriggle on as it's about 10 years behind EVs now.
There's one for sale on Autotrader.
2017 Toyota Mirai  35,750 miles £31,999 insurance group 45D

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210210960386?sort=relevance&include-delivery-option=on&fuel-type=Hydrogen&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&radius=1500&postcode=ng348xf&page=1

One of the many problems Hydrogen cars will have is lack of choice in filling up, you'll have to use a garage, therefor paying the govt. their chunk of tax. Ev owners who can will just charge at home, and those who can't will charge at the supermarket, gym, cinema, work, car parks etc anywhere with electricity.

What are the chances of ICE car drivers switching to hydrogen which cost a lot more to buy, insure and fill up.
		
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Why do you think leccy will always be cheap, and likewise EV's always cheap to charge?
As the duty income levels drop of petrol and diesel, leccy will go up especially for your EV. It's bonkers to think EV's will always be cheap to charge.


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## bobmac (Today at 5:26 PM)

Tashyboy said:



			I saw a Hyundai the other day Ev6 I think it was. Looked gorgeous. Had a quick peruse on the net. Starts at £45k 😳 look like buying second hand in 20 years then ☹️
		
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I don't think you'll have to wait that long.....

2019 Tesla Model 3 £26,000

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...g348xf&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true


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## bobmac (57 minutes ago)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why do you think leccy will always be cheap, and likewise EV's always cheap to charge?
As the duty income levels drop of petrol and diesel, leccy will go up especially for your EV. It's bonkers to think EV's will always be cheap to charge.
		
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Solar and wind are the cheapest forms of energy available today.
And as the cost of installing solar panels continues to drop, how are the govt going tax charging at home?


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## cliveb (56 minutes ago)

bobmac said:



			One of the many problems Hydrogen cars will have is lack of choice in filling up, you'll have to use a garage, therefor paying the govt. their chunk of tax. Ev owners who can will just charge at home, and those who can't will charge at the supermarket, gym, cinema, work, car parks etc anywhere with electricity.

What are the chances of ICE car drivers switching to hydrogen which cost a lot more to buy, insure and fill up.
		
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One huge problem with hydrogen is that current production methods are environmentally terrible - it's probably the worst fuel around in that respect (apart from coal).
The oil companies are trying to promote "blue hydrogen", but that's hardly much better.
The only environmentally acceptable form is green hydrogen, but it's ruinously expensive to produce in terms of electricity comsumption.

If some miracle happens (fusion, perhaps) and suddenly electricity is plentiful and cheap, then you could think about large scale green hydrogen use for scenarios where electricity isn't appropriate - eg. long range transport. But in that case, if you have effectively free electricity, you could use it to manufacture synthetic gasoline and use the existing infrastructure to distribute it.


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## Bunkermagnet (52 minutes ago)

bobmac said:



			Solar and wind are the cheapest forms of energy available today.
And as the cost of installing solar panels continues to drop, how are the govt going tax charging at home?
		
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They will find a way, how else are they going to balance their books?
Perhaps they will bring a weight tax, the heavier the car the more you pay. Already have something along those lines for HGV's.


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## bobmac (41 minutes ago)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps they will bring a weight tax, the heavier the car the more you pay. Already have something along those lines for HGV's.
		
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I agree but you were talking about the cost of charging.
And if the oil and gas companies continue to lose profits as more switch to EVs, do you think they will lower their pump prices?
Not on your nelly.


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## cliveb (38 minutes ago)

Bunkermagnet said:



			They will find a way, how else are they going to balance their books?
Perhaps they will bring a weight tax, the heavier the car the more you pay. Already have something along those lines for HGV's.
		
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They will find a way, and it's guaranteed to be a stupid, regressive way. There's already talk of GPS-based road use charging. Yes, I know that road use charging can incorporate stuff like where and when you drive and adjust rates to take account of congestion, but it's a complex problem and we all know how well government IT systems tend to work.

For God's sake, electric vehicles record how much electricity you've put into them. All you need to do is retrieve that data at the yearly MOT and add a suitable amount to the bill (eg. 5p per kWh). Simples.


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## bobmac (34 minutes ago)

Bunkermagnet said:



			They will find a way, how else are they going to balance their books?
		
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They could stop paying fossil fuel companies £10 billion per year, that would help.

Britain currently supports the fossil fuel industry through tax breaks and subsidies for exploration and research and development to the tune of £10 billion a year, according to latest figures from the OECD. 

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-...ports the fossil,latest figures from the OECD.


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