# Andy Vs Roger



## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2012)

I'll start a new thread for the final...

I am hoping that Andy can do the business... If for no other reason that when I first swung a racket at the courts down my local rec some fifty years ago Fred Perry was the 'man' and he still is today... So it would be good for that to change as possible inspiration for future generations of British Wimbledon winners...


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## Piece (Jul 8, 2012)

I hope he wins but I won't be watching as the sun has come out and kids need a run out!


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 8, 2012)

I think Murray needs to play his very best and hope Feds is slightly off the boil,but i'll be screaming myself hoarse regardless.

Come on Andy !!!!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2012)

Hope he does it. This is more years of hurt than the England football team but he is playing well and Feds "could" have a off day. Great day of sport with the F1, golf, and tennis


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

Think it's going to be even tougher with the roof closed (looks likely). Feds is immense indoors. Really hoping Murray can do it but it's a tough ask. C'mon muzza!!!!!


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

I think people underestimate Andy Murrays abilities. Tennis wise he is not as far behind the top 3 as he is made out to be.

Where he has faltered in the past has been mentally, and he looks so much stronger in the head now than he ever has done.

if Federer plays to his absolute maximum he will win, but he did that two days ago and I'm not so sure he will repeat it.

Murray in 4.


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## PieMan (Jul 8, 2012)

I think that even if he's slightly off the boil, Federer still has too much for Murray. Although Djokovich wasn't at his best, despite the second set, Federer was at him all the time and didn't give him an opportunity to get back into the game.

Out of all the guys Federer will also not be put off by the partisan atmosphere of the crowd and is just so cool and calm. As much as I would love to see Murray win, I just cannot see it happening today at Wimbledon and reckon Federer will take it, possibly even in straight sets.

I think Murray will win his first grand slam at the US Open before he wins Wimbledon.


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## Dellboy (Jul 8, 2012)

Would be nice to see Andy win, you never know he might even smile then, but he has to play to best, but all Roger has to do is hit about 75-80% then Andy stands little hope.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2012)

Interesting that everyone seems to be writing Murray off but on head to heads he is better than Federer


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## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting that everyone seems to be writing Murray off but on head to heads he is better than Federer
		
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Not in five set matches though, as far as I know.

I will be watching Feds.


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## Durango (Jul 8, 2012)

Unfortunately for Andy it is a fact that unless you were born in Stockport you have no chance of winning the mens singles at Wimbledon.


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## Deke (Jul 8, 2012)

Andy has beat Federer 8 times and Federer has beat Murray 7 times,so he clearly has the ability to win.I just hope he has the mental game to beat him today of all days! Go on Murray my boy!


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

Deke said:



			Andy has beat Federer 7 times and Federer has beat Murray 6 times,so he clearly has the ability to win.I just hope he has the mental game to beat him today of all days! Go on Murray my boy!
		
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Think it's 8-7 but of course Fed has won both of their 5 set matches in straight sets.

It is a different game in a slam final. Important that Murray starts well but even if he doesn't he needs to keep his cool. It is a long match.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

Dodgy start from Federer, Murray breaks in first game. Long way to go yet though


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## wrighty1874 (Jul 8, 2012)

Muzza looking good at he start, come on boy!!


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

Federer's backhand is a thing of beauty


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2012)

Richard Krajicek predicted a better chance of a win for Andy if the roof was open this afternoon... Hopefully his prediction proves correct...


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 8, 2012)

Ummmmmm.


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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2012)

The British guy did OK in the 1st set.......


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

Numerous times in that set when he could have crumbled and didn't, , broke at the crucial time and then served it out. Keep it up Andy lad!


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## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2012)

Murray playing well, Feds looks out of sorts. Murray could yet do this.


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## PieMan (Jul 8, 2012)

Yep - Fed well below his best, but Murray playing very well. He could well do it.............!!


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## wrighty1874 (Jul 8, 2012)

What a back hand volley from Murray. Maskell, eat your heart out!!!!


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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2012)

The Scottish guy didn't do so well in the 2nd set......


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## Imurg (Jul 8, 2012)

Nearly 2 hours for 2 sets...

Could it be a case of last Man Standing if it goes the distance..?


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## wrighty1874 (Jul 8, 2012)

Must have remembered he'll have to dance with Serena if he wins!!!



JustOne said:



			The Scottish guy didn't do so well in the 2nd set...... 

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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2012)

To be honest Murray has played fantastic, Federer just nabbed him in that last game to take the 2nd set. At least it's all square now they've had to delay.... no real momentum lost for either.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2012)

JustOne said:



			To be honest Murray has played fantastic, Federer just nabbed him in that last game to take the 2nd set. At least it's all square now they've had to delay.... no real momentum lost for either.
		
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Fair appraisal of the current situation...

Unfortunately they are now shutting the roof... Seemingly all the pundits believe this favours RF... Hopefully they're wrong...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The Scottish guy didn't do so well in the 2nd set...... 

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Always thought he was British until he lost.


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## USER1999 (Jul 8, 2012)

So, Feds won. 7 times champion. Fantastic.

Murray is pretty emotional, tough time to have to speak to camera.


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

4th best player comes second, so I suppose it's news. He'll never win a Slam, top two players out this time and then he's beaten by a gy 3 years past his best.

Good effort but he's not good enough and never will be


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			So, Feds won. 7 times champion. Fantastic.

Murray is pretty emotional, tough time to have to speak to camera.
		
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Tough to watch. And two fingers to those who say he never shows any emotion.

Federer at his best is better than Djokovic, Nadal and all the others and he had to play his absolute best to dispatch Murray today.

He will win at least one slam.


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			4th best player comes second, so I suppose it's news. He'll never win a Slam, top two players out this time and then he's beaten by a gy 3 years past his best.

Good effort but he's not good enough and never will be
		
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Really??


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Really??
		
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Yep, is that his 4th final ? Never close in any of them. the best 3 are just too good for him, fact


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## AmandaJR (Jul 8, 2012)

Really wanted Roger to win as I love him 

Tears in my eyes for Andy though and so good to see him show some emotion. Hope his day will come but still delighted it wasn't today.

Roger is class and has the heart and spirit of a champion - something Andy needs to look at and learn from as he has the game to win a slam for sure.


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			4th best player comes second, so I suppose it's news. He'll never win a Slam, top two players out this time and then he's beaten by a gy 3 years past his best.

Good effort but he's not good enough and never will be
		
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Bull for two reasons. Firstly Roger himself who is "past his best" was the one who beat the then world no 1.

Secondly, Roger is now the world no 1!

Murray is a little way behind the top 3. Not much.... he pushed Fed all the way today. He has beaten Rafa in grand slams before.

He will be at the top for another 5 or 6 years and he is too good not to win at least one in that time.


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## smange (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			4th best player comes second, so I suppose it's news. He'll never win a Slam, top two players out this time and *then he's beaten by a gy 3 years past his best.
*
Good effort but he's not good enough and never will be
		
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What a ridiculous statement when Federer has just went back to No. 1 in the world and just in case you didnt know he also happened to beat Djokovic in the semi-final. 

Can we take it then that you dont rate Djokovic either?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2012)

So that makes it 8 all in head to heads Murray against Federer.

Yep I suppose he is just not good enough.


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

QUOTE=colint;615732]Yep, is that his 4th final ? Never close in any of them. the best 3 are just too good for him, fact[/QUOTE]

You are very forhtright in your views about the future, congratulations....

Here are some more facts, Murray has 22 Career titles, $20m in winnings (10th all time Highest), 4 slam finals (in 3 different salms), represents a nation that has underperformed in his chosen sport for decades which brings immense pressure. He is easily capable of improving at hs age.

:cheers:


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## Piece (Jul 8, 2012)

Not a real tennis fan, but I have got extra admiration for Murray. Good to see he really cares and I think this will help him get that extra 5% he needs to mentally win a slam.

As for the comment that Federer is 3yrs past his prime...


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Neddy said:



			Bull for two reasons. Firstly Roger himself who is "past his best" was the one who beat the world no 1.

Secondly, Roger is now the world no 1!

Murray is a little way behind the top 3. Not much.... he pushed Fed all the way today. He has beaten Rafa in grand slams before.

He will be at the top for another 5 or 6 years and he is too good not to win at least one in that time.
		
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Not bull fact. First slam for Fed in 2.5 years, and evidently past his best. If he was pushed "all the way" it would have been a bit closer than 3 -1. Easy win in the end, writing was on the wall from the third set. 

Never close to winning one doesn't say "too good not to win one" to me, it says not good enough. All of the other top players had won one by Murrays age, he's not going to get any better, face facts


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

I cannot believe after that performance against the greatest player of all time, longest holder of the World number one spot, joint record holder of Wimbledon titles and one of the best indoor players of all time and showing real emotion on camera that the Murray haters are still in the prowl. No justification whatsoever. Have you been drowning yourself in Haterade?


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

smange said:



			What a ridiculous statement when Federer has just went back to No. 1 in the world and just in case you didnt know he also happened to beat Djokovic in the semi-final. 

Can we take it then that you dont rate Djokovic either?
		
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No you can't, I rate both of them because they've won Slams.


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			Not bull fact. First slam for Fed in 2.5 years, and evidently past his best. If he was pushed "all the way" it would have been a bit closer than 3 -1. Easy win in the end, writing was on the wall from the third set. 

Never close to winning one doesn't say "too good not to win one" to me, it says not good enough. All of the other top players had won one by Murrays age, he's not going to get any better, face facts
		
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So Fed peaked at 27 but Murray has already peaked at 25?

He is getting better year by year, his results over the past 18 months back up that statement and he will have plenty more chances.

How 4 finals isn't close to winning one I have no idea.

Typical of the people in this country that we have an outstanding talent and all people want to do is slag them off. Get out of the bitter barn and play in the hay....


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiger said:



			I cannot believe after that performance against the greatest player of all time, longest holder of the World number one spot, joint record holder of Wimbledon titles and one of the best indoor players of all time and showing real emotion on camera that the Murray haters are still in the prowl. No justification whatsoever. Have you been drowning yourself in Haterade?
		
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You'll have to direct me to where I said I hate him, I said he's not good enough to win a slam, which based on current evidence is a fact


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

Piece said:



			Not a real tennis fan, but I have got extra admiration for Murray. Good to see he really cares and I think this will help him get that extra 5% he needs to mentally win a slam.

As for the comment that Federer is 3yrs past his prime...

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NO!

Havent you read the post, he will not win a slam, not good enough ...FACT


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## Dodger (Jul 8, 2012)

In 5 emotional, wobbly minutes with a microphone Andy Murray sweeps aside every myth ever written about his character.

A great,great Scot.


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## thecraw (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			You'll have to direct me to where I said I hate him, I said he's not good enough to win a slam, which based on current evidence is a fact
		
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So Federer is a liar then when he stated that Murray will win one.

Go back to Westwood loving there is a man who's 100% not good enough.


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Neddy said:



			So Fed peaked at 27 but Murray has already peaked at 25?

He is getting better year by year, his results over the past 18 months back up that statement and he will have plenty more chances.

How 4 finals isn't close to winning one I have no idea.

Typical of the people in this country that we have an outstanding talent and all people want to do is slag them off. Get out of the bitter barn and play in the hay....
		
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Fed, Nadal and Djokovic had all won multiple slams before 25, they didn't wake up at 25 as world beaters. His results say he's the 4th best, nothing more

I'd say it's more typical of the people in this country that some are wetting their pants about an also ran coming second. Woopeedoo


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## Dodger (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			Fed, Nadal and Djokovic had all won multiple slams before 25, they didn't wake up at 25 as world beaters. His results say he's the 4th best, nothing more

*I'd say it's more typical of the people in this country that some are wetting their pants about an also ran coming second. Woopeedoo*

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Correct,England have made a pastime out of this.


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

thecraw said:



			So Federer is a liar then when he stated that Murray will win one.

Go back to Westwood loving there is a man who's 100% not good enough.
		
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Fed is a gent, what do you expect him to say ?  I'm no Westwood fan, him and Murray are two players I compare regularly, both get in decent positions to win the big one, both either not good enough and / or bottle it


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Dodger said:



			Correct,England have made a pastime out of this.
		
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Couldn't agree more Dodger, welcome to the club though.....


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## smange (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			No you can't, I rate both of them because they've won Slams.
		
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Yep, in the past..

Can we now say then that as Djokovic was beaten 3-0 by a player "evidently past his best" that Djokovic is no longer a great player and is on the rapid decline.

Why not judge Murray on his performances and not just based on your dislike of him for whatever reason


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

smange said:



			Yep, in the past..

Can we now say then that as Djokovic was beaten 3-0 by a player "evidently past his best" that Djokovic is no longer a great player and is on the rapid decline.

Why not judge Murray on his performances and not just based on your dislike of him for whatever reason
		
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Sorry, did Murray win ? My apologies, congratulations Andy.


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			Fed, Nadal and Djokovic had all won multiple slams before 25, they didn't wake up at 25 as world beaters. His results say he's the 4th best, nothing more

I'd say it's more typical of the people in this country that some are wetting their pants about an also ran coming second. Woopeedoo
		
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He might as well quit the game now then, just because his career hasn't been exactly the same as the top 3's up to this point.

He is the 4th best, nowhere in this thread have i said he wasn't, but sometimes the 4th best beats the 3rd best or the 2nd best or even the 1st best. Such is the beauty of sport.

Your world must be pretty dull if what happens in the past must always dictate what happens in the future.....


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## Piece (Jul 8, 2012)

Dodger said:



			Correct,England have made a pastime out of this.
		
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Don't forget the best British pastime is knocking British stars down when they do well...


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Neddy said:



			He might as well quit the game now then, just because his career hasn't been exactly the same as the top 3's up to this point.

He is the 4th best, nowhere in this thread have i said he wasn't, but sometimes the 4th best beats the 3rd best or the 2nd best or even the 1st best. Such is the beauty of sport.

Your world must be pretty dull if what happens in the past must always dictate what happens in the future.....
		
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I don't think he should quit, he's making a great living and 4th best is an achievment, I just don't see why there's this continual "he'll win one soon" attitude when all of the evidence says he won't


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

There is some rubbish posted on this forum sometimes. 

And what is it with stating opinions as fact? Bizarre, really bizarre


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			There is some rubbish posted on this forum sometimes. 

And what is it with stating opinions as fact? Bizarre, really bizarre
		
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Almost as bizarre as not reading posts properly. I stated Fed is past his best, that's a fact based on his results. I stated the top 3 are too good, that's a fact based on results


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			I don't think he should quit, he's making a great living and 4th best is an achievment, I just don't see why there's this continual "he'll win one soon" attitude when all of the evidence says he won't
		
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I look at it this way. He's averaging one slam final a year since 2008 and has reached the semi finals in 6 out of the last 7 slams. Assuming he plays to this level until he is 30 he will have several more chances and on one of those occasions he will play the game of his life and/or his opponent will have an off day and he will win.

Lendl lost his first 4 finals, Agassi his first 3. They both wound up with 8 grand slam titles. I'm sure after they lost their 4th/3rd final people such as yourself were stating that the evidence suggests they will never win  one. That they were chokers, that they weren't quite as good as McEnroe/Connors/Sampras/insert name as appropriate.

I think this is a classic case of two people interpreting the facts very differently. I have every faith that i am right and you are wrong. But we shall see....


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			I don't think he should quit, he's making a great living and 4th best is an achievment, I just don't see why there's this continual "he'll win one soon" attitude when all of the evidence says he won't
		
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What evidence is that then. Ivan Lendl won 15 grand slams, he also lost his 1st 4 final appearances


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What evidence is that then. Ivan Lendl won 15 grand slams, he also lost his 1st 4 final appearances
		
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He's also won 2 slams before he was 25. All of the modern greats have, not some, all. You don't suddenly improve that much past 25 in the modern game


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			Almost as bizarre as not reading posts properly. I stated Fed is past his best, that's a fact based on his results. I stated the top 3 are too good, that's a fact based on results
		
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How is Federer being past his best a fact when he has just won Wimbledon and regained world no.1 while beating the former number one in the process? Your posts are your OPINION not fact. You're entitled to your opinion but please don't claim it as fact


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## PieMan (Jul 8, 2012)

In the end, the best player on the day won. No shame at all for Andy Murray - he played some fantastic tennis in the first two sets, and he should take consolation from the fact that he was more than a match for the greatest player to have played the game for long periods of time. I am confident that he will win a grand slam - he certainly has the defensive game and serve for it - probably just needs a bit more on the attacking side of it and he'll come through.

Thought at the end both Federer and Murray showed a lot of class in their interviews. Really felt for Murray, and you could see just how much he wanted it. Hope he doesn't feel too down for long and picks himself up for the US Open.

But what about Federer? The guy is just a joy to watch and his game and the shots he plays are just amazing - even more so when you see his action in slow motion. Hope he wins at least 1 more Wimbledon before he retires as he deserves to be out there on his own in terms of Wimbledon's won.


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

This is hilarious...

You state facts, ie never won and not in top 3. But then you use these to predict the future. 

Deluded.com


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			He's also won 2 slams before he was 25.
		
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Meaning he won 6 after he was 25. Funny how you can twist statistics to make your point isn't it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2012)

I would imagine that Dorset has more indoor tennis centres and tennis clubs than Scotland.
For the record Scotland has 13 indoor tennis centres [only 8 open to the public] and less than 80 tennis clubs.

The LTA have been throwing Â£millions at tennis development in England for about 40 years and the best they came up with was Nice but Tim.


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			How is Federer being past his best a fact when he has just won Wimbledon and regained world no.1 while beating the former number one in the process? Your posts are your OPINION not fact. You're entitled to your opinion but please don't claim it as fact
		
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He's won 1 slam in over 2.5 years, his longest ever gap.That proves he's past his best, or maybe you'd like to argue that it proves he's approaching is peak ?


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Neddy said:



			Meaning he won 6 after he was 25. Funny how you can twist statistics to make your point isn't it? 

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Not really twisting anything, without the win before 25 it doesn't happen, another fact


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			He's won 1 slam in over 2.5 years, his longest ever gap.That proves he's past his best, or maybe you'd like to argue that it proves he's approaching is peak ?
		
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To be honest not sure why I'm replying to you at all. You clearly have all the facts and ca predict the future so my opinion is futile.

It must be really boring knowing what is going to happen all the time.


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			This is hilarious...

You state facts, ie never won and not in top 3. But then you use these to predict the future. 

Deluded.com
		
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You'll have to pad that argument out for me, it's a bit thin on facts


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			To be honest not sure why I'm replying to you at all. You clearly have all the facts and ca predict the future so my opinion is futile.

It must be really boring knowing what is going to happen all the time.
		
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I knew you'd say that


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			To be honest not sure why I'm replying to you at all. You clearly have all the facts and ca predict the future so my opinion is futile.

It must be really boring knowing what is going to happen all the time.
		
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This.

A lesson to us all. If you haven't achieved something by 25, then don't even bother trying, it's not going to happen......


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## AmandaJR (Jul 8, 2012)

You gotta love the net. A perfectly innocent thread so easily changes into a bit of a slanging match about...mainly...opinion.

I may be soft but warmed so much to Andy when he showed some emotion and how much the support has meant to him. He needs to learn from the Top 3 though and not let his shoulders slump so visibly. On the other side of the net that would lift me for sure.


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

HawkeyeMS said:



			To be honest not sure why I'm replying to you at all. You clearly have all the facts and ca predict the future so my opinion is futile.

It must be really boring knowing what is going to happen all the time.
		
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Colint, any chance of some lottery numbers mate?


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Scottjd1 said:



			Colint, any chance of some lottery numbers mate?
		
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I need to know if you're over 25 before I give them to you


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not one for getting angry on the forum, hurling abuse etc etc but colint you are pushing me in that direction mainly because you are so obtuse. At this moment in time we have the greatest player EVER and the greatest clay court player EVER. I would never claim that Murray was a match for either Nadal or Federer. Then again neither was Djokovic two years ago and look at him now. Murray's best surface is hard court and the Open most experts predict will be where he breaks his duck is the US. The two deciding moments of that match were two points of sublime brilliance in the final game of the second set and closing the roof. This was a much better performance by Murray in a major final and I think it's a matter of time before he wins one and that will be his springboard to winning more BUT he has to keep improving.


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## Deke (Jul 8, 2012)

Don't feed the troll Tiger! He is clearly a bit mental!


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## PieMan (Jul 8, 2012)

On a lighter note, nice to see Mrs Beckham smiling away and enjoying herself............  Obviously realised early on that she wasn't going to get much camera time with the Middleton sisters and Murray's girlfriend in attendance!!


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiger said:



			I'm not one for getting angry on the forum, hurling abuse etc etc but colint you are pushing me in that direction mainly because you are so obtuse. At this moment in time we have the greatest player EVER and the greatest clay court player EVER. I would never claim that Murray was a match for either Nadal or Federer. Then again neither was Djokovic two years ago and look at him now. Murray's best surface is hard court and the Open most experts predict will be where he breaks his duck is the US. The two deciding moments of that match were two points of sublime brilliance in the final game of the second set and closing the roof. This was a much better performance by Murray in a major final and I think it's a matter of time before he wins one and that will be his springboard to winning more BUT he has to keep improving.
		
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Hutl abuse if it make you feel better Tiger. He doesn't just need to get better, he needs the top guys to decline as well, and also hope that some new blood doesn't appear. He needs a perfect storm and I can't see it coming


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## richart (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			He's also won 2 slams before he was 25. All of the modern greats have, not some, all. You don't suddenly improve that much past 25 in the modern game
		
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Lendl won 8 grand slams, the first one when he was 24 years old. He was also being written off before he won his first one at the French. Not sure that Murray being one year older means he should be written off.

Plenty of sportsman, including tennis players have peaked later in their career.  Korda was 30 when he won his grand slam,Ivanisevic was 29. Johansson was 26 Krajicek was 25,Costa was 25, and they are all 25 year old plus who have won a grand slam in the last 15 years.


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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2012)

What a great thread..... !!! 

Firstly I don't see why all the Scottish people need to run to Murray's defence... we had a British winner and not one Scot even posted in the thread (weird huh?). We don't run around Henman just because he's English.... we openly admit that he's crap! :thup:

Murray is a great player... #4 in the world (does he get to #3 now?) and he has been #2 in the world. Will he win a slam? maybe... will he win Wimbledon... maybe. I don't even think Murray's future is worth argueing about... he's a good player.. rarely does a crap one make it to a slam final.. certainly not as many times as Murray has.




On to the game.... he was great for 2 1/2 sets but that 19 min game in the 3rd set was where he blew it, with a school boy error, he had Federer out of court and hit a soft overhead that he should have put away, after that break of Murray's serve Federer was playing  in a different gear.

Federer's forehand topspin drive... WHAT A WEAPON!!! I think that shot alone is the one that takes him to the top on grass... and he just seems to find the angles better than most. Federer has really grown on me.. he too was a bit of a knob when he first came on the scene... perhaps that's just sport?


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			Hutl abuse if it make you feel better Tiger. He doesn't just need to get better, he needs the top guys to decline as well, and also hope that some new blood doesn't appear. He needs a perfect storm and I can't see it coming
		
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Wow you really are breathtakingly obnoxious...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			He's won 1 slam in over 2.5 years, his longest ever gap.That proves he's past his best, or maybe you'd like to argue that it proves he's approaching is peak ?
		
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Rubbish. How can anyone be past their best when ranked #1 in the world. Just because he hasn't won a major for 2.5 years isn't the end of the world. The gap between the top players has narrowed and if you put it back into a golf analogy, look at some of the multiple winners of the majors and the gap they had.

Murray played great until the roof closed and then it became a bit of a foregone conclusion. With Lendl in his camp he'll get better technically and this must have done wondes for his self belief. Federer is coming close to the Autumn of his career but has the potential to win more but Murray will start getting more opportunities and I feel he will win won, hopefully at SW19


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Wow you really are breathtakingly obnoxious...
		
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Feel better ?


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rubbish. How can anyone be past their best when ranked #1 in the world. Just because he hasn't won a major for 2.5 years isn't the end of the world. The gap between the top players has narrowed and if you put it back into a golf analogy, look at some of the multiple winners of the majors and the gap they had.

Murray played great until the roof closed and then it became a bit of a foregone conclusion. With Lendl in his camp he'll get better technically and this must have done wondes for his self belief. Federer is coming close to the Autumn of his career but has the potential to win more but Murray will start getting more opportunities and I feel he will win won, hopefully at SW19
		
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So if you're number 1 in the world that automatically means you're as good now as three years ago ? The golf analogy doesn't work, we get unexpected major winners all the time, cream rises to the top in tennis much more than in golf


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## SS2 (Jul 8, 2012)

Federer deserved to win. Calm, composed and in control throughout. His backhand and service returns were of the highest standard.

 Murray is still too emotionally attached, perhaps Lendl can hammer that out of him.

All-in a great afternoon's entertainment.


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

SS2 said:



			Federer deserved to win. Calm, composed and in control throughout. His backhand and service returns were of the highest standard.

 Murray is still too emotionally attached, perhaps Lendl can hammer that out of him.

All-in a great afternoon's entertainment.
		
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Don't think Federer was that composed in the first couple of sets. The number of unforced errors was high for him and I think that was partly down to the occasion but also how Murray played. However that break he won in game 12 of the second set transformed him. Obviously the roof closing helped but you are spot on that Murray got increasingly emotional and Federer increasingly serene as the match wore on. 

I think it's that composure that Murray lacks on the big occassions. Like you, I think Lendl can help him address that. He was emotionless in the player's box!!!

I do wonder though if Murray had taken one of those four break points and won the second set if Federer would have come back as strongly...

Great match though


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## NWJocko (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			So if you're number 1 in the world that automatically means you're as good now as three years ago ? The golf analogy doesn't work, we get unexpected major winners all the time, cream rises to the top in tennis much more than in golf
		
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Have you considered that he's remained at the same level but the competition has improved?

Djokovic has made a huge leap forward over the past 18 months and nadal has improved (from a good starting point) on surfaces other than clay.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			So if you're number 1 in the world that automatically means you're as good now as three years ago ? The golf analogy doesn't work, we get unexpected major winners all the time, cream rises to the top in tennis much more than in golf
		
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Are you on a mission to alienate as many people as possible. It's a forum and about opinions and you don't have a given right for our opinion to be the only and right answer

As it happens, surely if yo get back to #1 then you are back to your bst as the rankings reflect performance over a period of time.

As for golf, I'm sure Harrington, Woods, Mickleson etc will be pleased to read your reply that cream doesn't rise. Heck in your wolrd why not just reduce the tennis tour to the top 4 at each event and only let Murray in to make up the numbers so the top 2 canjust play against each other every week


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## Deke (Jul 8, 2012)

Can someone please explain why the roof being closed was better for Roger? How would it affect either player? I don't get it!


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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't know Deke as Murray already complained about himself finding it harder to play in the wind the other day... seemed fairly even to me... Murray just missed a few chances which Federer didn't.


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## Neddy (Jul 8, 2012)

Deke said:



			Can someone please explain why the roof being closed was better for Roger? How would it affect either player? I don't get it!
		
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The closing of the roof does two things,

It removes the "natural" element of the game, ie no wind, the temperature is controlled etc so the ball goes where you hit it, the elements have no factor.

Secondly an indoor environment is typically slower than a warm outdoor environment, so the ball travels a bit slower.

Personally don't believe the closing of the roof had much to do with it. Just think Roger went to a different level, but it does make the playing environment different.


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## Deke (Jul 8, 2012)

Neddy said:



			The closing of the roof does two things,

It removes the "natural" element of the game, ie no wind, the temperature is controlled etc so the ball goes where you hit it, the elements have no factor.

Secondly an indoor environment is typically slower than a warm outdoor environment, so the ball travels a bit slower.

Personally don't believe the closing of the roof had much to do with it. Just think Roger went to a different level, but it does make the playing environment different.
		
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Neddy mate,thank you! This has been bothering me all day! ;-)


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## colint (Jul 8, 2012)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Are you on a mission to alienate as many people as possible. It's a forum and about opinions and you don't have a given right for our opinion to be the only and right answer

As it happens, surely if yo get back to #1 then you are back to your bst as the rankings reflect performance over a period of time.

As for golf, I'm sure Harrington, Woods, Mickleson etc will be pleased to read your reply that cream doesn't rise. Heck in your wolrd why not just reduce the tennis tour to the top 4 at each event and only let Murray in to make up the numbers so the top 2 canjust play against each other every week
		
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And I'm giving my opinion, if that alienates me then so be it. If you the golf analogy works, then look back over the last 10 years and see how many one off, unexpected slam winners they've been, and then do the same for golf. I said cream rises more often in tennis, not that it doesn't rise in golf. Retread my post if its difficult


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## Tiger (Jul 8, 2012)

Deke if you look at Federer's indoor record it's frightening. The man is phenomenally gifted and can aim and hit the edges more freely in a controlled environment. With the elements players don't push the limits as much to allow a greater margin for error. They are both world class players but I don't think Federer has lost a match indoors since 2010


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			And I'm giving my opinion, if that alienates me then so be it.
		
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It just seems to be that your view has to be the right one all the time on this thread. No concession to other points of view


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## Deke (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Deke if you look at Federer's indoor record it's frightening. The man is phenomenally gifted and can aim and hit the edges more freely in a controlled environment. With the elements players don't push the limits as much to allow a greater margin for error. They are both world class players but I don't think Federer has lost a match indoors since 2010
		
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Cheers mate,I am quite new to watching tennis and this stuff fascinates me!


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## DaveM (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not a fan of watching tennis. But thought it was a great game. Both of them played some great shots. Murray was better than I had been lead to believe as well. There was not much in it all the way.


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## Piece (Jul 8, 2012)

colint said:



			So if you're number 1 in the world that automatically means you're as good now as three years ago ? The golf analogy doesn't work, we get unexpected major winners all the time, cream rises to the top in tennis much more than in golf
		
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Food for thought: Lee Westwood's best year was in 2000, winning 7 events and leading the Euro Tour list that year. He was aged 27. Two years later he dropped out of the world 100 and wasn't in contention. Was he past his best? Just saying...

There is nothing to prevent a sportsman from getting back to his best. I believe we are seeing this with FedEx and Tiger.


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## richart (Jul 8, 2012)

Federer has a brilliant indoor record. He has long swings on both sides, so if the wind changes the flight of the ball, it is harder for him to adjust his shots. Look at how many backhands he miss timed in the first two sets. Under the roof he hardly miss timed a ball, and his ground strokes were almost flawless.

The heavier atmosphere also noticeably affected Murray's grounds strokes, as they had less penetration, and he hardly hit an outright winner under the roof. He was unable to open up the court as he did in the first two sets. Federer running around Murrays second serve also made a huge difference, which I am sure he was told by his coach in the break.

Murray played his best tennis in the second set, but a couple of points made the difference between two sets up and one set all.

I am sure Murray will be a stronger player for the experience, and he proved that he can compete in grand slams. He has certainly made tennis interesting deep into slams for a lot of Brits, including me.


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## Scottjd1 (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiger said:



			but I don't think Federer has lost a match indoors since 2010
		
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That will co-incide with his decline in form then.....


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## Durango (Jul 8, 2012)

Murray was blowing out of his arse after the second set, thats what playing against a top class player like Fed does to you. When you're that tired concentration drops and you make more and more mistakes. His first serve ratio dropped dramatically and he made several daft errors.  There is a big gulf between the top 3 and Murray, he will certainly need a big dollop of luck to get over the winning line anytime soon.


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## sawtooth (Jul 9, 2012)

Durango said:



			Murray was blowing out of his arse after the second set, thats what playing against a top class player like Fed does to you. When you're that tired concentration drops and you make more and more mistakes. His first serve ratio dropped dramatically and he made several daft errors.  There is a big gulf between the top 3 and Murray, he will certainly need a big dollop of luck to get over the winning line anytime soon.
		
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Technically I dont think theres much of a gulf but crucially Murray's level of play drops at key times whereas the top 3 are relentless under pressure.

I think Murray's tears yesterday is a realisation that chances are running out, he knows it himself.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2012)

Can I remind Sawtooth of my earlier reply re head to heads between Murray and Fererer. Eight a piece.
To any fair minded person that should strike them as a close contest.


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## bladeplayer (Jul 9, 2012)

Firstly i was cheering for Fed as i think AM lacks people skills rather than tennis skills , not overly fond of the guy .. 
I think murrays tears yesterday were part of the problem , they were just a release of the pressure , & to cry like that in public after a final that wasnt realy close shows how much tension he had in him..

Murray went out to power Fed off the court & when he  was fresh that worked , Fed had a mad number of unforced errors in the 1st two sets , when he ironed them out & as murray tired from trying to knock the cover off the ball,  he had a great chance ..

As someone else said Murray need to hide his emoptions better during the game , stop the shoulder slumping & babbling , never show weakness during competition or an experienced opponent will eat you up .. same as matchplay golf ,   

Murray has been unfortunate to be peaking in his carreer at a time whens mens tennis has a blessing of , RF , RD & NJ all sublime players , 
Will he win a major ? id say he might (opinion not fact) as in any sport injury could wipe out any or all of the top players at the same or different times .. do i hope he wins one ? not bothered id rather see luke win a major , if he is not too old already ha


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 9, 2012)

I love the way the haters come out in force after the match has finished,shouting "told you so".
Didn't see many of you on here when Murray was a set and a break up.
Federer played brilliantly in the last two sets,and admitted afterwards that he had to play his "best" to beat Murray.
Murray has made 4 Grand Slam finals,and lost them all (3 of them to arguably the greatest tennis player in history) i don't see that as any kind of failiure.


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## Slicer30 (Jul 9, 2012)

I thought he done well considering the pressure he was under.  Federer was sublime in the last 2 sets.

The pain of that loss will hopefully give him the final push he needs to win it next year


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## sawtooth (Jul 9, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can I remind Sawtooth of my earlier reply re head to heads between Murray and Fererer. Eight a piece.
To any fair minded person that should strike them as a close contest.
		
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I read that and I agree there is not much to seperate Murray from Federer and Murray can still improve his game.

The real issue going forward is whether or not he can keep his cool. I dont subsribe to the view that he tired in the match, I cant see that Murray is any less fit than Federer. 
He has the game already (he's proved that time and time again) and he's as fit as a butchers dog, he just needs to be a bit more composed under pressure.

 If he can do that he will win a slam....and probably a few more after that.


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## jp5 (Jul 9, 2012)

sawtooth said:



			I read that and I agree there is not much to seperate Murray from Federer and Murray can still improve his game.
		
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Not much to separate Federer and Murray. Is that apart from the 17 major titles? The 286 weeks at world number 1?

Federer is on another planet to Murray.


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## sawtooth (Jul 9, 2012)

jp5 said:



			Not much to separate Federer and Murray. Is that apart from the 17 major titles? The 286 weeks at world number 1?

Federer is on another planet to Murray.
		
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You took my wording out of context. Technically speaking theres not a lot Federer can do with a tennis ball that Murray cannot. As someone else already quoted they have beaten each other 8 times, you cant do that if you are not technically on the same level.

The important missing ingredient is the ability to perform at the very highest level, consistently under pressure. 

I agree , in that regard Federer is on another planet. He is coolness personified even on high pressure points in slams.


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## colint (Jul 9, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			I love the way the haters come out in force after the match has finished,shouting "told you so".
Didn't see many of you on here when Murray was a set and a break up.
Federer played brilliantly in the last two sets,and admitted afterwards that he had to play his "best" to beat Murray.
Murray has made 4 Grand Slam finals,and lost them all (3 of them to arguably the greatest tennis player in history) i don't see that as any kind of failiure.
		
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If you're aim is to lose in finals, it's success. If your aim is to win in finals, it's failure. I think he's achieved a lot and should be proud, but I can't stand this "it's a matter of time" attitude towards him. If he wins one, which I don;t think he will, it'll be a matter of luck and results falling the right way for him


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## Colin L (Jul 9, 2012)

What a shame there isn't a bit more appreciation from colint (no relation I hasten to add of Colin L)  of what was a hugely entertaining feast of top-class tennis.  It was a sheer delight to watch even though the disappointment for Murray was keenly felt.   
For colint to  decry his achievement, and worse to appear to be deriving personal pleasure and satisfaction from doing so is just sad.  I have no idea what his knowledge of tennis is, but on the basis of his terrible grasp of rational argument and his breathtaking conversion of opinion into fact , I doubt there is much need to be concerned about colint's  evaluation of Murray or his predictions of Murray's  future career.  

First British player in a Wimbledon final for 70 years did I hear?  What a disaster of a man.  Beaten in 4 grand slam finals?  Never mind the achievement of getting there; never mind all the wins;  the man is clearly a bottler. 

That by the way, is irony.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2012)

From the paper today...

"Murray is not a loser but a winner in waiting"...

I am quite happy to second that....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2012)

Scottish papers are all over him today, as a nation we are so proud that he was the first Wimbledon finalist since white flannels. [long troosers to the young uns]

Best headline was
Cry,Cry and Try again.


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 9, 2012)

colint said:



			If you're aim is to lose in finals, it's success. If your aim is to win in finals, it's failure. I think he's achieved a lot and should be proud, but I can't stand this "it's a matter of time" attitude towards him. If he wins one, which I don;t think he will, it'll be a matter of luck and results falling the right way for him
		
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Do me a favour and Troll another thread.


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## colint (Jul 9, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Do me a favour and Troll another thread.
		
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Truth hurts, I'll go to another thread if you prefer to live in a dream land ? If you aim to win and lose, you've failed - fact


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## DelB (Jul 9, 2012)

colint said:



			Truth hurts, I'll go to another thread if you prefer to live in a dream land ? If you aim to win and lose, you've failed - fact
		
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Give it a rest, eh.


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## colint (Jul 9, 2012)

Colin L said:



			What a shame there isn't a bit more appreciation from colint (no relation I hasten to add of Colin L)  of what was a hugely entertaining feast of top-class tennis.  It was a sheer delight to watch even though the disappointment for Murray was keenly felt.   
For colint to  decry his achievement, and worse to appear to be deriving personal pleasure and satisfaction from doing so is just sad.  I have no idea what his knowledge of tennis is, but on the basis of his terrible grasp of rational argument and his breathtaking conversion of opinion into fact , I doubt there is much need to be concerned about colint's  evaluation of Murray or his predictions of Murray's  future career.  

First British player in a Wimbledon final for 70 years did I hear?  What a disaster of a man.  Beaten in 4 grand slam finals?  Never mind the achievement of getting there; never mind all the wins;  the man is clearly a bottler. 

That by the way, is irony.
		
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I'm also happy to confirm that, to the best of my knowledge, I am no relation to you either, although why you thought the need to point out that two people called Colin are not related I don't know (are all members of your family called Colin ?) Could you point out where I've failed to grasp "rational argument" ? I think what I actually did was use fact to back up my opinion, rather than use baseless hope and wishful thinking, but please, feel free to direct me to the rational I appear tohave missed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 9, 2012)

Huge television audience of nearly 19 million.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 9, 2012)

I've got to agree with Colint on this one and although Murray done very well, he failed  to win the match.

There's no doubt the lad has talent and will probably challenge for more grand slams but to class this competition as a success is typical of the British way of applauding failure.


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## Durango (Jul 9, 2012)

Colint seems to be getting a very rough ride on here for expressing his opinion. Seems alot of people in this thread are 'Wimbledon' fans rather than 'tennis' fans and no doubt think the tennis season has now finished for another year.


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## Tiger (Jul 9, 2012)

Durango said:



			Colint seems to be getting a very rough ride on here for expressing his opinion. Seems alot of people in this thread are 'Wimbledon' fans rather than 'tennis' fans and no doubt think the tennis season has now finished for another year.
		
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Nonsense. I'm a tennis fan. The issue I have with Colin's standpoint is that is delivered as absolute fact which it isn't. He claimed Federer is past it and that Murray will never win a Major because he's lost four finals and is now 25. When you examine the facts and apply some historical knowledge of tennis both of those statements are fundamentally flawed. I'm all up for people having opinions and arguing their point but what gets my goat is when people are obnoxious and obtuse. 

When you analyse the match the majority of EXPERTS agree that Murray pushed Federer hard in that match and that it was vintage Federer that crossed the line. If Murray had turned in an abject display I'd say there was some merit in Colin's argument. But as someone who has watched every single final he has played he was a very different and improved player at Wimbledon. 

He has always had the talent and regularly beats the top three in best of three tournaments. What he has lacked is the temperament to handle the big occasion and five set matches. I am seeing signs that he is progressing on that front.


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## colint (Jul 9, 2012)

Tiger said:



			Nonsense. I'm a tennis fan. The issue I have with Colin's standpoint is that is delivered as absolute fact which it isn't. He claimed Federer is past it and that Murray will never win a Major because he's lost four finals and is now 25. When you examine the facts and apply some historical knowledge of tennis both of those statements are fundamentally flawed. I'm all up for people having opinions and arguing their point but what gets my goat is when people are obnoxious and obtuse. 

When you analyse the match the majority of EXPERTS agree that Murray pushed Federer hard in that match and that it was vintage Federer that crossed the line. If Murray had turned in an abject display I'd say there was some merit in Colin's argument. But as someone who has watched every single final he has played he was a very different and improved player at Wimbledon. 

He has always had the talent and regularly beats the top three in best of three tournaments. What he has lacked is the temperament to handle the big occasion and five set matches. I am seeing signs that he is progressing on that front.
		
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Tiger, with respect, I never said Fed was past it. If you're going to take issue with I've said fine, but stick to what I said. I said he's past his best and I stand by that 1) because despite his brilliant tennis he doesn't look as dominating and 2) his results back up that he's  not as good now as he was 3 years ago. How many slams do you think he'll win over the next 2 years ? 2 maybe ? If I asked you that question 3 years ago I dount you'd have said only 2.

Murray handled things for a set and a half, then was easily beaten and burst into tears. Not exactly the signs I'd look for in someone improving, and improvinmg quickly enough


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## richart (Jul 9, 2012)

Perhaps Federer is as good as he was three years ago, but Nadal and definitely Djokovic have improved ?


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## Tiger (Jul 10, 2012)

richart said:



			Perhaps Federer is as good as he was three years ago, but Nadal and definitely Djokovic have improved ?
		
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+1 I think they are better at handling him. colint your description of amurray's performance is not only disrespectful but it's also off the mark. That second set was heading to a tiebreak until Federer produced two moments of brilliance. I do agree that in the final two sets Federer went up a gear but I'd attribute that more to the change of conditions, which he excels in, than a dip in Murray's performance. 

If you look at Feds record he dominated three of the Majors. If there wasn't a clay court slam we'd probably not hold Nadal in such high esteem. The elephant in the room is that Fed's a daddy to two year old twins, which does coincide with a drop in slam dominance, so perhaps mentally he's not as sharp as he was. Technically, he is sheer class but the quality of play, especially from Djokovic suggests the others are closing the gap. 

For my money there has been an erosion of his aura, similarly to what has happened to Woods. The other guys have worked out strategies to beat him and that has boosted their confidence they can. 

You criticise Murray for crying yet it is Federer who is the most prone if the two to emotional outbursts in victory and defeat. The real question is how much time Federer wants to spend away from his young family. I have a feeling he wants an 8th Wimbledon title and a 20th slam before he hangs up his racket. I reckon he'll have achieved both those things in two years time. 

However, I would never suggest he is past his best. Tennis is a game of skill, fitness and mental fortitude. He has bucket loads of all three. When his legs go, which doesn't look likely, you may have a case.


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## Tiger (Jul 10, 2012)

My one criticism of Murray would be that he tried the drop shot to often, especially in the second set when Federer was on the ropes. It l


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 10, 2012)

Tiger,save your typing finger mate,your posts have been excellent,but sadly its just encouraging the Troll to type more bile.


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## richart (Jul 10, 2012)

The problem with the drop shot to Federer is not only does he play on or inside the base line, so has less distance to run than someone like Nadal, he also has the best hands in tennis. Where as most players would just get the ball back in play, Federer can hit winners from tight into the net.

By playing from right on the baseline he cuts the angles down, so even when Murray was serving fast into the corners, he was able to block his returns back. He must have the best hand eye co-ordination of any player to play this way, and his half volleying from the baseline, hitting winners at times is stunning. Anyone that has played the game will know how difficult the shot is to to time on a consistant basis, let alone hit the shot with such power.

A truely great player, and I very much doubt we will ever see another one like him. Unfortunately due to the surfaces they play on, tennis players are going to get bigger and stronger, and thump it harder and harder from the baseline. Touch, finesse, even slice will become a thing off the past


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## bladeplayer (Jul 10, 2012)

Tiger said:



			My one criticism of Murray would be that he tried the drop shot to often, especially in the second set when Federer was on the ropes. It l
		
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Thats a Sign of mental tiredness & not thinking straight tho Tiger, I dont think Murray could sustain hitting the ball that hard for more than 2 full sets , if he had won the 2nd set , then maybe adrenalin would have kicked in & RF head may have gone down a bit 

..  As i said before he needs to hide negative emotion a bit more , some of the challanges he called werent even close , showing he was looking for help from others , or geting a breather .. & good players will eat you alive at the smallest sign of weakness.. 

Its quiet possible he will win a grand slam , prob is , RN a genius on clay , NJ  a genius on hard court & RF a genius on grass .. & they all good on the other surfaces aswell .. unfortunate that 3 of the greates players of all time were around as he was/is peaking aswell ,


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## colint (Jul 10, 2012)

Tiger you've said my description is wide of the mark (and also disrespecful although why I should be showing him respect alludes me), but then basically agreed with me. I said he was in the match for a set and a half and then was easily beaten, you said Fed went up a gear in the final 2 sets so effectively saying the same. Whether Murray wilted or Fed went up a notch or both, he was still only in the match for a set and a half. I'm not really clear as to why the Murray fanboys can't accept that ? When the top guys raise their game Murray gets blown away, he kept his compusure right through the tournament until the last few sets when the old petulance crept in because he knew as much as anyone that the writing was on the wall. I rasied the tears because you can't claim that a player is on the right road mentally when they burst into tears, surely ? 

It's a fair point raised by Rich that the others may have raised their game and so making Fed look like less of a player, but personally he just doesn't look the same. Whether that's mental because of his young family etc we'll never know.


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## colint (Jul 10, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Tiger,save your typing finger mate,your posts have been excellent,but sadly its just encouraging the Troll to type more bile.
		
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Mungo, typing an opinion different from others on the forum isn't trolling. Irrelevant personal posts such as yours are closer to the mark. Contribute to the debate or stay out of it


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2012)

Do you guys actually play tennis?

Or are you just armchair experts.


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## richart (Jul 10, 2012)

I have been known to play the odd set, and do a bit of coaching.:mmm:


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## Tiger (Jul 10, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you guys actually play tennis?Or are you just armchair experts.
		
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I turned my hand to it unsuccessfully in my youth and concentrated on football and cricket instead. Have always had an enormous interest in the sport though, followed it closely and massive respect for those who play it to the top players standard. I don't think you have to be a top player to have the necessary knowledge for informed debate though, unless you are drilling down into very technical areas. Where I have got some knowledge is in performance sport environment. Colin I haven't agreed with you because the premise of your arguments have been that Federer is past his best ( I don't think he is) and that Murray will never improve enough to win a Major (I think he's getting better). I'm not a fanboy of anyone as that implies a blind following and support of an individual without any basis in fact. From what I have seen from friendships and training with high level athletes is that it's not all about talent. Some it is about mental strength. I think that's the missing ingredient for Murray and he seems to be improving in that area.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2012)

I think Murray has the strength but his 'body language' is poor. I get upset when the armchair experts on here say he gives up.
One bright spark complained about him giving up in the 3rd round when he was 18 years old and his body was no where near developed.
I can relate this to a group of young golfers who were approaching England boys selection. The Pro and I installed a drill of never looking dissapointed if they hit a poor shot. Our example was that the selectors were 100 yards away and would have no idea whether the shot was chunked or thinned.
In latter years one of our boys won shot of the year with a fantastic tee shot that turned a Ryder Cup match [for the whole team] I saw him a few months later and he reminded me of their training. 'It wasn't a great shot I hit it a bit fat and got lucky' he said.


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## Tiger (Jul 10, 2012)

I would say that mental strength and body language go hand in hand but that's semantics really . 

I like the idea about never displaying emotion on a golf shot I'll have to try that one. My mental golf game is massively weak!!


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 10, 2012)

colint said:



			Mungo, typing an opinion different from others on the forum isn't trolling. Irrelevant personal posts such as yours are closer to the mark. Contribute to the debate or stay out of it
		
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Oh your a Mod now as well as a Troll ?
You clearly don't like Murray,and your trying to justify your criticism of him and his tennis based on your opinion of what makes a good/great tennis player.
As for "irrelevant personal posts" i'm doing nothing more than voicing my opinion,Have a look back through the thread and you'll find that i'm not the only person doing this.


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## chris661 (Jul 10, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Oh your a Mod now as well as a Troll ?
		
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Mods are trolls? :ears:


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 10, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Mods are trolls? :ears:
		
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Well i won't argue with that Chris.


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## Deke (Jul 10, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Mods are trolls? :ears:
		
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You said it bud! ;-0


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## colint (Jul 10, 2012)

Mungoscorner said:



			Oh your a Mod now as well as a Troll ?
You clearly don't like Murray,and your trying to justify your criticism of him and his tennis based on your opinion of what makes a good/great tennis player.
As for "irrelevant personal posts" i'm doing nothing more than voicing my opinion,Have a look back through the thread and you'll find that i'm not the only person doing this.
		
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I don't like Murray AND he's not a great tennis player (although he's very good obviously but not and never will be a "great"), but the two are not connected. As I've said before, as well as Murray I dislike the attitude of it's a matter of tme before he transforms into a Slam winning legend from fanboys as it's completely without merit in my opinion.  

Trolling is deliberating posting offensive remarks purely to annoy or upset, regardless of the posters true feelings. I haven't done that, I've given my genuine opinion on Murray which I've done before on this forum. If you want to continue with personal attacks then feel free to continue, if want to try to exclude anyone who has a different opinion from you then a public forum is probably not the best place for you


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## colint (Jul 10, 2012)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you guys actually play tennis?

Or are you just armchair experts.
		
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I play a bit, lucky to have a couple of really good free courts nearby as well as a good club, but I'm pants, 28 hcaper at least


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 7, 2013)

Bump


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## Neddy (Jul 7, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Bump 

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I was thinking about this thread earlier.

Colin T....come on down


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## Neddy (Jul 7, 2013)

Neddy said:



			I look at it this way. He's averaging one slam final a year since 2008 and has reached the semi finals in 6 out of the last 7 slams. Assuming he plays to this level until he is 30 he will have several more chances and on one of those occasions he will play the game of his life and/or his opponent will have an off day and he will win.

Lendl lost his first 4 finals, Agassi his first 3. They both wound up with 8 grand slam titles. I'm sure after they lost their 4th/3rd final people such as yourself were stating that the evidence suggests they will never win  one. That they were chokers, that they weren't quite as good as McEnroe/Connors/Sampras/insert name as appropriate.

I think this is a classic case of two people interpreting the facts very differently. I have every faith that i am right and you are wrong. But we shall see....
		
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I love being right.

Seriously, has anyone heard from Colin lately? :smirk:


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2013)

Neddy said:



			I love being right.

Seriously, has anyone heard from Colin lately? :smirk:
		
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I think he's in hiding. He owes Richart 40p!

Murray has been in the Final of the last 4 Slams he's played, so definitely raised his game - though I think Lendl has had a hand in that! The Olympics win was a turning point to me, with the US win confirmation.


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## Mungoscorner (Jul 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I think he's in hiding. He owes Richart 40p!

Murray has been in the Final of the last 4 Slams he's played, so definitely raised his game - *though I think Lendl has had a hand in *that! The Olympics win was a turning point to me, with the US win confirmation.
		
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Murray was a bit weak mentally, Lendl has undoubtedly sorted that part of his game, he's been a different player since Lendl came on board.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2013)

Mungoscorner said:



			Murray was a bit weak mentally, Lendl has undoubtedly sorted that part of his game, he's been a different player since Lendl came on board.
		
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Hopefully Lendl will now sort out the second serve...


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## JustOne (Jul 8, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully Lendl will now sort out the second serve...
		
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Why? Is it not good enough to win The Olympics, US Open and Wimbledon?


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## Birchy (Jul 8, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Why? Is it not good enough to win The Olympics, US Open and Wimbledon? 

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If he improves that he will be number one imo. Its his only weak point and that's a massive compliment to the guy.

Hes gonna win a lot more now this monkey is off his back too I reckon.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Why? Is it not good enough to win The Olympics, US Open and Wimbledon? 

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If he wishes to win week in week out to truly earn number one status [rather than be awarded it by his forum supporters] its the one 'weakness' in his game... As I have said on t'other thread it speaks volumes for the rest of his game but needs sorting sooner rather than later...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2013)

I'll tell you why some (still many?) folk still seem to not like Murrey.  He's not a celebrity - he doesn't want to be a celebrity - he and his girlfriend don't prostitute themselves around the red tops and the Hellos and OKs of this world for the titillation of the unfortunately large shallow and celebrity obsessed section of our population - and giving what they know to be their largely irrelevant views on this that and the other.   

And he doesn't go around grinning like a cheshire cat or indeed unnecessarily showing *any *motion - because as it happens and unless you haven't noticed - a lot of Scots blokes are just like that.  After all - if you grin or greet all the time when is anyone going to know when you are actually really happy or sad.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imagine that Dorset has more indoor tennis centres and tennis clubs than Scotland.
For the record Scotland has 13 indoor tennis centres [only 8 open to the public] and less than 80 tennis clubs.

The LTA have been throwing Â£millions at tennis development in England for about 40 years and the best they came up with was Nice but Tim.
		
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Almost forgot I posted this, a little perspective perhaps.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll tell you why some (still many?) folk still seem to not like Murrey.  He's not a celebrity - he doesn't want to be a celebrity - he and his girlfriend don't prostitute themselves around the red tops and the Hellos and OKs of this world for the titillation of the unfortunately large shallow and celebrity obsessed section of our population - and giving what they know to be their largely irrelevant views on this that and the other.   

And he doesn't go around grinning like a cheshire cat or indeed unnecessarily showing *any *motion - because as it happens and unless you haven't noticed - a lot of Scots blokes are just like that.  After all - if you grin or greet all the time when is anyone going to know when you are actually really happy or sad.
		
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Did he then seek out Jude, Brad and Gerard [amongst others] and suggest they stop stalking him immediately... I don't think so... When you are at where he is... Being 'celebrity' is part and parcel like it or not... Think the fact that Wimbledon has never been so packed out is a true measure of how he is appreciated by 'home' fans...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2013)

MegaSteve said:



			Did he then seek out Jude, Brad and Gerard [amongst others] and suggest they stop stalking him immediately... I don't think so... When you are at where he is... Being 'celebrity' is part and parcel like it or not... Think the fact that Wimbledon has never been so packed out is a true measure of how he is appreciated by 'home' fans...
		
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Don't quite get your point.  Others can view him as a celebrity and wish to associate themselves or be seen with him - but he might not want to act the celebrity.  There are things he will have to do (for the LTA and sponsors) whether he wants to or not.  There are things he will do becuase he is now able to do them - and that might be chatting to film stars.  If he does all that in private all power to his elbow.  I become less sympathetic to those in the public eye when they court publicity and milk their celebrity status the hide way complaining about being pestered, exposed etc.  

I loved how in the players family and friends area immediately after the match his girlfriend immediately and very obviously ducked out of camera shot as soon as it alighted on her.  No VicBeckham'esque preening or glowering at the camera for that girl.  

BTW - she wears glasses - wonder what style she has as I've never seen her wearing them either in a picture or on TV


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## Aztecs27 (Jul 8, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Almost forgot I posted this, a little perspective perhaps.
		
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Pretty weak argument here though. Murray learned the game in Spain, not Scotland. Unless I'm missing your point completely.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a huge Murray fan, and happy for Scotland and Britain that he's achieved what was seemingly the impossible a few years ago (and with some style too!)


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2013)

Aztecs27 said:



			Murray learned the game in Spain,
		
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If I am to believe a local news story the next crop of superstar players are learning their 'trade' just over the hill from here... Unfortunately most are from overseas... Just like 'our' universities I suppose....


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## Stuart_C (Jul 8, 2013)

What a difference 12 months makes 

I think its a great testament to Murray how he's fought back  and the improvement he's made to his game  to comeback and win it.

Some of the criticism in this thread was fair  tbh.


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