# No Returns - Due to WHS Guidance



## Swango1980 (Feb 26, 2020)

First and foremost: This has nothing to do with a desire to punish players for an NR (I know some clubs do, ours doesn't and I personally don't want to punish players for having an NR). However, England Golf have heavily recommended clubs to discipline players who NR, because it can have a much more profound impact on a players handicap under WHS than it would under our current CONGU system. So, if this is going to be the case, I'm interested how other clubs deal with this, or will deal with it, so that it can help us take a reasonable approach in what is bound to be a sensitive subject for some.

Two questions:

1. What do golf clubs currently do about No Returns in Club Competitions?
2. If nothing is done (except for hopefully adding in the no return so the player gets 0.1 back), how do clubs plan to deal with No Returns once WHS is in play?

From the WHS Workshop, if a player No Returns, a Penalty Score should be applied if the reason to quit was not valid. However, the exact procedure is a bit woolly, and the slides provided don't give any real detail. There is the following to consider:

1. If a player plays at least 9 holes, those scores should be entered, and then for all scores where no score recorded, I believe the advice was to put a penalty score of +1 over par (or nett par, can't remember)
2. If a players plays at least 9 holes, but then no returns and doesn't submit card, their scores should be found out, for example on the card they were marking for another player, and entered
3. If a player plays at least 9 holes, but then no returns and for some reason you can't discover any of their holes scores, I presume you just have to put a penalty score for every hole
4. If a player no returns before they play 9 holes, that round should not be used by handicapping. Does this mean we need to distinguish between a player who just gave up on front 9 because he started really badly and was close to the car park and quit, compared to low figure handicapper who wants to stay low, and decides before finishing the 9th that he is playing a poor round, so just walks in (i.e. at the moment, both players get 0.1 back, whereas under WHS score disregarded)

England Golf, therefore, seem to have put the onus on clubs to implement a disciplinary procedure for no returns, so I am trying to figure out if anybody has, or will have plans in place for this? We don't have an issue at the moment, as we know a player will get 0.1 back (and never known a player to no return because they were playing well and trying to avoid a cut, but maybe it happens very rarely). Therefore, no discipline procedure. However, we'll certainly need to get to grips with it before November, and I'd like us to implement something most other clubs will be doing, as I don't want members to think we are being overly strict and cause some discontent (i.e. a player walks off before 9 holes, potentially because he doesn't want a handicap increase, but he could try and say he had hayfever or had a little injury. He might kick off if we discipline him for that, thus anybody could make any sort of excuse to avoid any action)


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## jim8flog (Feb 26, 2020)

We had a disciplinary procedure for cards not returned or not entered on the PSI but it was taking up so much of the office staffs time to administer we abandoned it. We did get as far as suspending one players handicap and the ripple effect through the club brought quite a change from a lot of members. We do however see members slipping back in to old ways.

What I plan to to do is start educating the members that NRs and cards not returned will be taken much more seriously under the WHS that hopefully it will seriously reduce the numbers we currently get.


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## rulefan (Feb 26, 2020)

We also have a disciplinary procedure. One default and the player is spoken to. 2 unsatisfactorily explained NRs and the player is given a formal warning. 3 and the player is subject to one of the following. Suspension from comps for a period, suspension of playing rights for a period.
We were suffering about 3 years ago but a couple of suspensions soon stopped it.

Rule 1.2 gives the committee more options and I see it as a useful but hopefully unnecessary tool.


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2020)

I'd love to see a persistent offender or one without a good reason get a cut rather than  people getting 0.1


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			We also have a disciplinary procedure. One default and the player is spoken to. 2 unsatisfactorily explained NRs and the player is given a formal warning. 3 and the player is subject to one of the following. Suspension from comps for a period, suspension of playing rights for a period.
We were suffering about 3 years ago but a couple of suspensions soon stopped it.

Rule 1.2 gives the committee more options and I see it as a useful but hopefully unnecessary tool.
		
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Sounds like a bundle of laughs playing comps at your club.


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## rosecott (Feb 26, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Sounds like a bundle of laughs playing comps at your club.
		
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And if you were in a position of responsibility, would you just ignore such issues in the hope that they would go away?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			And if you were in a position of responsibility, would you just ignore such issues in the hope that they would go away?
		
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Well I certainly think being 'spoken to' after 1st offence is rather draconian. Suspension after 3rd offence, what about those who play 20 or 30 comps a season?

I would rather NR when playing crap and keep of the way of my PP's, I don't want to spoil their round of golf. And what about speed of play issues ratching around in the rough all day?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Well I certainly think being 'spoken to' after 1st offence is rather draconian. Suspension after 3rd offence, what about those who play 20 or 30 comps a season?

I would rather NR when playing crap and keep of the way of my PP's, I don't want to spoil their round of golf. And what about speed of play issues ratching around in the rough all day?
		
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Certainly take your point and a lot of us will have been in that horrible position in a medal of playing total crap and then losing a ball and deciding to NR. Not a good thing to do but I can understand it. Seems a bit harsh, especially as you say if someone is putting 20+ comp cards in per season and doesn't have a history of NR'ing to then "have a word" the first time it happens. I think it needs to be looked at with some degree of context


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## williamalex1 (Feb 26, 2020)

I agree with saving -par  on this, why keep on hacking it around the course holding play up, annoying PPs searching for balls when you've already NRd.
 How much difference would a NR after 10 holes make to the CSS, compared to continuing 18 holes  [already NRd ] and scoring  20 over the buffer, in the current system or in the new upcoming WHS


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## rulefan (Feb 26, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Sounds like a bundle of laughs playing comps at your club.
		
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Misunderstanding perhaps. I was thinking of NRs as failure to return the card or failure to enter score into system. Not simply entering NR into the system


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## Swango1980 (Feb 26, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Well I certainly think being 'spoken to' after 1st offence is rather draconian. Suspension after 3rd offence, what about those who play 20 or 30 comps a season?

I would rather NR when playing crap and keep of the way of my PP's, I don't want to spoil their round of golf. And what about speed of play issues ratching around in the rough all day?
		
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It will become a problem with WHS, because actual scores need to be entered, so it can pick your best 8. If you were to simply not return a score at all, it gets complicated becausit is not like now, where youd simply just go up 0.1. Therefore, England Golf has strongly encouraged clubs to have strong disciplinary procedures for no returns.

At end of day, golf committees take on the responsibility of managing players handicaps, organising competitions for them, arranging prizes, answering queries, etc. As a golfer, your main responsibility is, if you choose to play competitions, is to try your best, even on bad days, and submit a score. It is not asking for much, is it?

Btw, a no return in the sense that you pick up on one hole, is fine. so long as you play the other holes and enter scores. You'll be out of the comp if medal, but still ok for handicap. The key problem is if a player just picks up, walks off and provides no hole scores at all, or just one or two at start. So, if you are having a nightmare on 1 hole, think you are slowing everyone up, you can pick up and then tee off on next hole. No problem


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## williamalex1 (Feb 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It will become a problem with WHS, because actual scores need to be entered, so it can pick your best 8. If you were to simply not return a score at all, it gets complicated becausit is not like now, where youd simply just go up 0.1. Therefore, England Golf has strongly encouraged clubs to have strong disciplinary procedures for no returns.

At end of day, golf committees take on the responsibility of managing players handicaps, organising competitions for them, arranging prizes, answering queries, etc. As a golfer, your main responsibility is, if you choose to play competitions, is to try your best, even on bad days, and submit a score. It is not asking for much, is it?

Btw, a no return in the sense that you pick up on one hole, is fine. so long as you play the other holes and enter scores. You'll be out of the comp if medal, but still ok for handicap. The key problem is if a player just picks up, walks off and provides no hole scores at all, or just one or two at start. So, if you are having a nightmare on 1 hole, think you are slowing everyone up, you can pick up and then tee off on next hole. No problem
		
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What if the nightmare continues hole after hole, [ and it does for some ] exactly how many holes should you torture yourself and your PPs after you've NRd ? as long as the card is handed in


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## rosecott (Feb 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Misunderstanding perhaps. I was thinking of NRs as failure to return the card or failure to enter score into system. Not simply entering NR into the system
		
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As was I.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			As was I.
		
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Tut tut lol


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## Swango1980 (Feb 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			What if the nightmare continues hole after hole, [ and it does for some ] exactly how many holes should you torture yourself and your PPs after you've NRd ? as long as the card is handed in 

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What do you do in Stableford? Walk in early?


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## williamalex1 (Feb 27, 2020)

Ater


Swango1980 said:



			What do you do in Stableford? Walk in early?
		
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 When it's obvious [ pretty often ] my game/scoring is isn't getting any better, maybe zero points over 10 or 12 holes hacking about and holding people up looking for balls or just being annoying to my PP,  yes I'm F offski. .
as soon as I get near the club house.
 I would never leave a loan player, I'll always hand in my signed NR card, so where's the problem ? Just another over h/c card , probably be my 21st .
BTW we play very few Stableford comp at my club mostly stroke play.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Ater

When it's obvious [ pretty often ] my game/scoring is isn't getting any better, maybe zero points over 10 or 12 holes hacking about and holding people up looking for balls or just being annoying to my PP,  yes I'm F offski. .
as soon as I get near the club house.
I would never leave a loan player, I'll always hand in my signed NR card, so where's the problem ? Just another over h/c card , probably be my 21st .
BTW we play very few Stableford comp at my club mostly stroke play.
		
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Well, just be careful. If your club start following England Golf guidelines, you might find you get a ban or handicap suspension come November.

If you play more than 9 holes, perhaps you'll get away with it as penalty scores can be added. But, not sure how strict clubs will need to be.

PS: Would you ever be in a position of having zero points over 10-12 holes?? If so, maybe your handicap is either far too low (it will increase quicker under WHS so probably worth finishing round to help you out), or maybe a bit more practice required before going through the stress of playing in a competition..


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## User20204 (Feb 27, 2020)

Warning for having NR's  suspended from playing rights 

Sounds like a cracking club to be a member of, where do I sign up


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## rulefan (Feb 27, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Warning for having NR's  suspended from playing rights 

Sounds like a cracking club to be a member of, where do I sign up 

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Did you read post #10 ?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Warning for having NR's  suspended from playing rights 

Sounds like a cracking club to be a member of, where do I sign up 

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Careful before you mock. Come WHS, you might find all clubs having to do this


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Careful before you mock. Come WHS, you might find all clubs having to do this
		
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and then it will be the same clubs moaning theyre going out of business as they lose members lol


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2020)

ah the good old NR debate again

It’s a hobby we play for goodness sake - if someone doesn’t put their card in - so what ? In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. It never bothered me one single bit and certainly never had the intentions of bringing in restrictive rules 

Take a step back at times and realise we play this sport for fun


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ah the good old NR debate again

It’s a hobby we play for goodness sake - if someone doesn’t put their card in - so what ? In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. It never bothered me one single bit and certainly never had the intentions of bringing in restrictive rules

Take a step back at times and realise we play this sport for fun
		
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I think you are both missing the point.

In all honesty, I don't really care if a golfer walks off in a huff because they are not playing well. I certainly dont care if they pick up on one hole in a medal, but continue playing.

This is about how they will impact on WHS, because no returns could have a very different impact on a players handicap. Therefore, England Golf have asked all clubs to implement strong disciplinary measures if players no return. So, if that is the case, and you are unhappy, by all means leave the club. But, where will you go if everyone is having to do it?

You do realise that, players have responsibilities as part of the handicapping guidelines? If you are happy enough to take part in competitions that clubs organise for you, with a handicap they help maintain, it is not asking a lot for you to return your score? Or is it? Perhaps NOT playing competions is a good idea for players fragile enough that bad form makes them want to stop playing, maybe stick to social golf with mates  

As I said, I don't care if a player currently walks off. I have no returned before (not proud of it though). But, don't expect it to be so easy to do come November


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2020)

Swango do you think youre getting a little bit too worried/obsessed about WHS more than 6 months before its here and everyone even knows exactly what shape it will take?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I think you are both missing the point.

In all honesty, I don't really care if a golfer walks off in a huff because they are not playing well. I certainly dont care if they pick up on one hole in a medal, but continue playing.

This is about how they will impact on WHS, because no returns could have a very different impact on a players handicap. Therefore, England Golf have asked all clubs to implement strong disciplinary measures if players no return. So, if that is the case, and you are unhappy, by all means leave the club. But, where will you go if everyone is having to do it?

You do realise that, players have responsibilities as part of the handicapping guidelines? If you are happy enough to take part in competitions that clubs organise for you, with a handicap they help maintain, it is not asking a lot for you to return your score? Or is it? Perhaps NOT playing competions is a good idea for players fragile enough that bad form makes them want to stop playing, maybe stick to social golf with mates 

As I said, I don't care if a player currently walks off. I have no returned before (not proud of it though). But, don't expect it to be so easy to do come November
		
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I’m not missing any point and was a handicap Secretary for years so know what happens and the situation doesn’t change - taje your head out of any potential rules and understand the actual sport

Stop obsessing about something that is months away yet and just see what happens instead of looking for every possible eventuality


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2020)

fundy said:



			Swango do you think youre getting a little bit too worried/obsessed about WHS more than 6 months before its here and everyone even knows exactly what shape it will take?
		
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Probably, but rather do it now that it ruin my xmas


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## fundy (Feb 27, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Probably, but rather do it now that it ruin my xmas 

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its february ffs man, chill out enjoy your summer and worry about it when theres some more fat on the bones


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## Swango1980 (Feb 27, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m not missing any point and was a handicap Secretary for years so know what happens and the situation doesn’t change - taje your head out of any potential rules and understand the actual sport

Stop obsessing about something that is months away yet and just see what happens instead of looking for every possible eventuality
		
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You clearly have no idea how WHS will work, or you know more than England Golf. Things have moved on.

Unless you know what would happen if, say a player no returned so frequently, that for example they only submitted a score less than 40% of their rounds. Under WhS of course. 

Maybe I should just completely ignore it until November? No, hang on, because I need to inform all the members of my club in the very near future (again, a request by england Golf). So, it is probably a good idea to think of all the question I will he asked, and have already been asked


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

PS: I changed the subject title and opening wording of this thread. Perhaps the word NR is sensitive enough to get peoples backs up. So, I just wanted to make it clear I raised it only because of what England Golf have asked from us (at the Workshop last week), and nothing to do with my own personal desire, or club desire, to punish people for an NR. The last thing we would ever want to do is wind up our own members, and I recognise it is a touchy subject.


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## ger147 (Feb 28, 2020)

Do England Golf expect you to punish a player who completes 17 out of 18 holes but doesn't complete 1 hole as he unexpectedly can't find his ball having had no reason to suspect it might be lost?

At the moment, his other 17 hole scores are entered and his handicap is adjusted as appropriate, either up or down but his overall score in the competition is NR.

If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round?  If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Do England Golf expect you to punish a player who completes 17 out of 18 holes but doesn't complete 1 hole as he unexpectedly can't find his ball having had no reason to suspect it might be lost?

At the moment, his other 17 hole scores are entered and his handicap is adjusted as appropriate, either up or down but his overall score in the competition is NR.

If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round?  If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?
		
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Simply no,  any penalty score added is for handicap only and would not effect the finishing position in any competition.


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## jim8flog (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round?  If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?
		
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No because the R&A rules of golf come in to effect first and your are DQd (in medal play) for failing to hole out.

Penalty scores are only added for handicap purposes.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Do England Golf expect you to punish a player who completes 17 out of 18 holes but doesn't complete 1 hole as he unexpectedly can't find his ball having had no reason to suspect it might be lost?

At the moment, his other 17 hole scores are entered and his handicap is adjusted as appropriate, either up or down but his overall score in the competition is NR.

If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round?  If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?
		
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Ger, in short no, thankfully. 

It is what I am still trying to get my head around. However, if a player picks up on one or 2 holes (in a medal), and get an NR for the competition result, this is not the sort of thing that needs "punishment". Penalty scores for the uncompleted holes would more than likely be acceptable. The point is, that player has genuinely tried to play the round, and simply picked up as they are having a nightmare hole(s).

However, where it does become a problem, are the following examples:


a score cannot be accepted for handicap purposes, in WHS, if less than 9 holes completed. So, let us say you have a player who, for whatever reason, wants to ensure their handicap stays low (maybe for vanity, or maybe to qualify for specific high end competitions in the county or nation). If they got off to a poor start, they could simply decide to walk in before 9 holes, thus effectively making it look like the round never happened. This is not an  issue currently, as they'd still get 0.1 back added to handicap regardless if they NR or shoot a nett 100, so they might as well, currently, play on and try their best to save themselves on back 9. However, even if they are not trying to keep handicap low, same thing with WHS, the score would not count towards their handicap, and it should.
A player completed at least 9 holes, but walks off at some point on back 9 without even trying to play the last few holes. Penalty scores need to be applied (not sure if the committee need to manually do this, or WHS will do it automatically). Now, maybe this would be OK if the player does it once in a blue moon. However, the more frequently they do this, and even if these scores are outside their best 8, it does increase the chances that it will push other poor scores into their top 8 which may not have been the case had they not NR'ed. Worst case scenario, a player has a habit of NRing more than 60% or their rounds, then they actually will have these NR rounds, with penalty scores, being part of their best 8.
A player plays most of the round, if not all, but simply rip their card up and do not enter score. How do the Committee decide what score they had. They need to try and find it out if possible and enter it, which hopefully they could do my looking at the markers score on the card they marked. However, it is a bit of flaff, and if they both ripped up their cards, then the Committee could be stuck
So, England Golf are not suggesting ANY NR should be penalised with a disciplinary. But, they want clubs to implement strict rules so that scenarios like the above can be avoided if at all possible.


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## ger147 (Feb 28, 2020)

Right, so back to my scenario.  I pick up on 1 hole, complete the other 17.  At the moment, my overall score is NR and therefore I cannot win the comp even though my handicap can still be adjusted.  In your scenario, if I get a penalty score for the 1 hole I didn't complete, can I still win the comp?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Right, so back to my scenario.  I pick up on 1 hole, complete the other 17.  At the moment, my overall score is NR and therefore I cannot win the comp even though my handicap can still be adjusted.  In your scenario, if I get a penalty score for the 1 hole I didn't complete, can I still win the comp?
		
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ger. No

In terms of the competition, exactly the same as now (obviously assuming it is a medal you are talking about). You didn't complete a hole, you are disqualified. However, your score still goes onto your handicap record (also like now)


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			ger. No

In terms of the competition, exactly the same as now (obviously assuming it is a medal you are talking about). You didn't complete a hole, you are disqualified. However, your score still goes onto your handicap record (also like now)
		
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PS.

It is a good question in terms of how it works from an "admin" perspective.

I would presume the player would have to type in "0" for the no score hole in the system. If the player themselves types in a penalty score, then the system would just assume that was their actual score. However, once the player types in "0" and they get an NR and DQ for that competition result, I'm not sure if WHS will automatically apply the penalty score in background, or the Committee will need to go in and type the penalty score themselves.


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## ger147 (Feb 28, 2020)

Just reading the EG document "World Handicap System - FAQ's" document.  It states that for any hole started but not completed you get a net double bogey, and for any holes not played at all you get a net par.  At the moment when using the computer to input your score, missing out a hole or typing a "0" into the terminal both result in an NR being recorded for that hole.  How will it work going forward i.e. the need to differentiate between a hole started but not completed vs a hole that was not played at all.

And a net par for not playing a hole???  Seems like a bit of a loop hole i.e. if you finish the 16th and are on a good score, just patch 17 and 18 and walk in if you want a handicap cut...


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## rosecott (Feb 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			PS.

It is a good question in terms of how it works from an "admin" perspective.

I would presume the player would have to type in "0" for the no score hole in the system. If the player themselves types in a penalty score, then the system would just assume that was their actual score. However, once the player types in "0" and they get an NR and DQ for that competition result, I'm not sure if WHS will automatically apply the penalty score in background, or the Committee will need to go in and type the penalty score themselves.
		
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At the presentation we attended on Tuesday, it was stated that there would be codes to be inserted for no score holes - the actual codes have not yet been decided/finalised.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Right, so back to my scenario.  I pick up on 1 hole, complete the other 17.  At the moment, my overall score is NR and therefore I cannot win the comp even though my handicap can still be adjusted.  In your scenario, if I get a penalty score for the 1 hole I didn't complete, can I still win the comp?
		
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Never a chance of you wining the comp anyway, but at least you wont holding the course up


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

During the presentation by England Golf, they were very clear about the need to discipline players for, but it is a bit vague as to what exactly is considered a serious breach, Probably subjective in some cases. This is the wording within the slides:

"Applying a Penalty Score


If a player fails to submit a score from an authorized format of play, the Handicap Committee should investigate and take appropriate action
If the reason was valid the Score should not be posted
If there was no valid reason and an acceptable score is discoverable, that score will be posted: *and a club sanction may be applied*.
If the score is not discoverable, a penalty score must be posted.
*In the most serious cases, such as repeated failure to submit acceptable scores, the Committee has discretion to apply additional penalty scores, reset the player's Handicap Index or consider other disciplinary procedures.*
Withdrawing a Handicap Index


*A player's Handicap Index should be withdrawn if they deliberately or repeatedly fail to comply with their responsibilities under the Rules of Handicapping*
A player must be notified of the period of Handicap Index withdrawal and any additional conditions
The withdrawal of a player's Handicap Index should be applied only after the player has been informed and has had an opportunity to respond
The process will be handled by the Handicap Committee and/or the County/National Union"


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## ger147 (Feb 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Never a chance of you wining the comp anyway, but at least you wont holding the course up 

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Yet to play a season without winning at least 1, 3 winner's medals from last season.

How's your back getting on, science still knocking you back re. donating it??


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## williamalex1 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Yet to play a season without winning at least 1, 3 winner's medals from last season.

How's your back getting on, science still knocking you back re. donating it?? [/QUOTE
I'm on the donation register, but nobody wants my sperm or my stiff back, maybe I should stop taking the Viagra 

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## ger147 (Feb 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			No because the R&A rules of golf come in to effect first and your are DQd (in medal play) for failing to hole out.

Penalty scores are only added for handicap purposes.
		
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Apologies Jim, missed this post in among the others being added.  So re. NR'ing on 1 hole, either by accident or thru choice, no change from CONGU to WHS.

Still not sure about the net par idea for holes not being played.  I know it's for for handicap purposes only but doesn't seem quite right to me.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Apologies Jim, missed this post in among the others being added.  So re. NR'ing on 1 hole, either by accident or thru choice, no change from CONGU to WHS.

Still not sure about the net par idea for holes not being played.  I know it's for for handicap purposes only but doesn't seem quite right to me.
		
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Yes ger, as mentioned previously (again my post might have been missed), no change from CONGU to WHS in the respect that, you are DQ'ed from competition, but score still counts to handicap.

I think the nett parr idea, is that, if you physically haven't played the hole, you can't simply say the player would have had a disaster (as in a nett double bogey or worse now). So, a penalty score of nett par is added to basically assume that, the player made no gain or loss on their handicap (this may be a similar method in how they work out 9 hole handicaps, where the imaginary 9 holes not played you are assumed to have scores 18 points, although as we don't have a 9 hole course, no expert in it).

If the NR is because you tried to play the hole, but had a nightmare, then the penalty score, I presume, would be nett double bogey rather than nett par.

It is these things I'm trying to get my head around now, so I can be a step ahead of the golfers at my club by the time we go live. Otherwise, it'd look pretty poor if players start coming across these issues in November, and I the handicap secretary is equally in the dark because I've not bothered looking into it before November.


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## lex! (Feb 28, 2020)

I am in agreement that the score forwarded for handicap on a NR is still a mystery under WHS, and the rep from England Golf was very vague about this under questioning at our workshop.
All I wanted to know was what score goes onto the card for the midnight calculation. Conflicting advice was either, don't put it in, apply a penalty, or leave it and no score holes go in as net par.


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## jim8flog (Feb 28, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Apologies Jim, missed this post in among the others being added.  So re. NR'ing on 1 hole, either by accident or thru choice, no change from CONGU to WHS.

Still not sure about the net par idea for holes not being played.  I know it's for for handicap purposes only but doesn't seem quite right to me.
		
Click to expand...

 I am one who was a little confused at the workshop as the penalty appears to be an increasing scale depending on the number of NRs on the card.  It is one that I decided I would wait for the official handbook to be issued to get my head round. Particularly as it will probably all be done by the computer software and not something to have work through as the handicap secretary.


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## Jimbof (Feb 29, 2020)

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding around Penalty Scores.  These are only submitted when a card has't been physically returned and the reason for non-return of the card is not valid - an example of a non-valid reason is to keep the handicap low or to try and keep the handicap high.  The Committee should consider submitting a Penalty Score (i.e. the full card) such as a score equal to the current handicap index in the case where the player is trying to increase their handicap, or a higher score if the player is trying to keep the handicap lower.  The disciplinary approach is an option for persistent offenders, not in the case where the odd hole is not completed.  

The 'normal' NR, where a hole (or holes) has not been completed it is treated as a Nett Double Bogey if the hole was started or a Nett Par if the hole was not started.  This latter approach is new (for us) in WHS but it is there to take account of those jurisdications where Matchplay is an acceptable score and the match is completed earlier than the 18th (e.g. 5&4, where the last 4 holes are scored as Nett Par).  There will be some approach implemented within the software to indicate that a hole was not started and thus the overnight processing for handicaps will recognise that and adjust accordingly.

This latter approach does, then, allow for less than 18 holes played (and more than 10) be acceptable for handicap purposes - I am aware of a least 1 club who run 15 hole competitions, but only the 1st 9 count for handicapping under the current rules (i.e. a 9-hole competition under CONGU rules).  They will be able to use all 15 holes with the last 3 counte as Nett Pars for handicap purposes).


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