# Kid2 >>>>



## JustOne (Jun 6, 2012)

It's your plane that is killing you...

You take the clubhead around behind you and practically allow it to lead the way... your hands and arms should control the clubhead, not the other way round,,,,




Notice how the clubhead is behind your arse....  that's a REALLY flat takeaway (90%) of club golfers do this. You can't hit the ball from being that flat so the rest of your swing is about compensating for that. If there was a brick wall behind your butt you'd obviously smack it...

Take a look at Justin Rose (who's also basically one plane nowadays)




His club exits behind him somewhere near his shoulder and yet it still doesn't get behind the line I've drawn behind his bum.

Here's he is halfway up (about where you were in your swing....)



The club is above the height of his hands... which are still very much in front of his hips. Your wrists are not controlling the clubhead.. they are 'flipping/hinging' open and allowing the clubhead to get waaaaaaay behind you.


NB:
You also have a bit of cuppage in your left wrist at the top which will get the clubface pointing LEFT at impact.


NNB:
One plane DOESN'T MEAN FLAT it means that your shoulders turn on an inclined plane and the forearm matches the shoulder plane at the top.

(two plane swing is flatter shoulder turn with the arms picking the club up more and ending up ABOVE the shoulder plane).


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## kid2 (Jun 7, 2012)

I take it that Justins swing would be a decent swing for me to try and match so James!

I can see the difference at halfway back as you say where my club head is inside.....Would i be on a decent plane then if my club were to match the alignment rods that i have down at that same position in the backswing.


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## JustOne (Jun 7, 2012)

I wouldn't necessarily COPY anyones swing... just try and get the theory/basics right no matter what pattern you're following..... here's Luke donald.... club head has risen above his hand height........ but it's not flung back behind his arse


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## kid2 (Jun 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I wouldn't necessarily COPY anyones swing... just try and get the theory/basics right no matter what pattern you're following..... here's Luke donald.... club head has risen above his hand height........ but it's not flung back behind his arse 

View attachment 1934

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Smashin.......:thup:
Its definitely getting better...A lot of bloody frustration but worthwhile i think!


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## JustOne (Jun 7, 2012)

On your backswing, make the club go up towards the 1 o'clock (12 o'clock would be above your head and 3 o'clock would be behind your butt.)





If you video your swing from behind (down the line) make sure the 1st place you see the club exit behind you is in the vicinity of the right upper ribs/right armpit.

Practice in the garden, ONE SWING.... film it on your iPhone, 10 times per day if necessary.... get on plane


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2012)

Great Advice James.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2012)

Kid2.  You might find this video helps you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZC6s4pev0


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## kid2 (Jun 7, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Kid2.  You might find this video helps you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZC6s4pev0

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Thats a great Video Brian...Thanks.:thup:


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## garyinderry (Jun 7, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Kid2.  You might find this video helps you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZC6s4pev0

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if your like me then you can use your garage door!


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2012)

Obviously, we'd all like to have the perfect swing but it's unlikely to happen. You can however have an inside b/swing but still be good at impact. 

The current world no. 6 demonstrates how.



Backswing




Downswing


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## kid2 (Jun 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Obviously, we'd all like to have the perfect swing but it's unlikely to happen. You can however have an inside b/swing but still be good at impact. 

The current world no. 6 demonstrates how.

View attachment 1945

Backswing


View attachment 1946

Downswing
		
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Hi Bob....Whats the best way to stop missing left with the inside takeaway.... I think that my takeaway is similar to Matts and somewhere along the line i manage to get things right at times when i hit a draw or a straight one...

But im prone to loosing it both sides when i dont trust it.


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2012)

Get the transition correct.
If you throw at the top, you will swing out to in and the ball goes left (assuming a square clubface to the swing path)
Make the change of direction smooth and un-hurried as thats where the problems often start.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2012)

I certainly would not encourage a handicap golfer to take the club back inside like that. Kuchar has the ability to reroute it but why would you want to be making those kind of adjustments in your swing if you don't need to.

The other 9 don't


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2012)

He starts off flat in the take away. At the top,  he throws is it as 90 % of golfers do but he throws it onto the right plane. If he was on plane going back then threw it, he would be above plane.

[video=youtube;vMjQU2Xo62I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMjQU2Xo62I[/video]

I didnt say I would encourage someone to swing back flat, I just said If the pupil got it good at impact, I wouldn't care too much about the backswing. I mean why would you?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2012)

If they get it right in the backswing they are in a much better position to get it right at impact.

There is nothing wrong with working on a perfect swing, you may not achieve it but the nearer you get the better you will strike the ball.


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## JustOne (Jun 8, 2012)

There's a lot of differences between Kid2's swing and Kuchar, I'd go as far to say Kuchar is flat.. one of the (if not THE) flattest... however Kid2 is flatter, the clubhead gets deeper (more behind) than even Kuchar manages.

There are subtle differences note with DRIVER Kuchar doesn't get it behind him as much as K2 does with his 7-iron? and (from the Masters vid posted above) notice the angle of the left arm and how deep Kuchars hands are to his right hip (he isn't flapping the club back with his wrists....) 





There's 100 different little things going on, I'm not saying that you couldn't learn them all but it'd be as painful as learning to swing on a 'more conventional' one plane swing... if not it'd definitely then also be one of those swings that you'll need a dedicated swing coach... and I'm a bit busy! 

NB: I probably also wouldn't recommend Furyk (just in case you're thinking of taking it to the other extreme!)


All that said.....

If you want to go whole hog S&T then you're close  embrace it or change :ears:


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## bobmac (Jun 8, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			If they get it right in the backswing they are in a much better position to get it right at impact.
		
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Not if they throw it at the top they wont


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Not if they throw it at the top they wont
		
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Bob.  I said  'in a much better position' .  I didn't say 'And nothing can go wrong from here'  Did I?


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## bobmac (Jun 8, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			Bob.  I said  'in a much better position' .  I didn't say 'And nothing can go wrong from here'  Did I?
		
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Whatever you say.
Sorry Kid2, totally lost interest now


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## ScienceBoy (Jun 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Not if they throw it at the top they wont
		
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Thats what I am currently doing, a nice slightly drawn shot going 10 yards left of target. The rest of my swing is looking great but this is a new thing for me 

*sorry for thread hijack but Bobs comment was a bit of a lightbulb moment, I knew I was doing it but now I have confirmed it. I am working on correcting it and 50% if the time its good and I hit a lovely high soft landing shot, even with my 3 iron 

PS how many beers do I owe you now Bob?

I guess at forum meets you eat and drink for free even when food is not provided 

I think I need a "I <3 bobmac" teeshirt


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## JustOne (Jun 8, 2012)

hmmmm...... I'd imagine the backswing in putting is quite important? probably wouldn't want to swing it around your ankles... you could of course learn to do it this way.

Probably wouldn't use Kuchar as an example of a swing to copy, he makes it work for him (ala Furyk) if the ball is consistently doing what you want then no worries.


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## bobmac (Jun 8, 2012)

I'd imagine the backswing in putting is quite important? probably wouldn't want to swing it around your ankles
		
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Not really the same though are they, a 12in putting stroke and a full speed swing 




			Probably wouldn't use Kuchar as an example of a swing to copy
		
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Don't recall saying it was a swing to copy





			It's your plane that is killing you...
		
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I'm just saying if you  have a flat backswing and a bit of a throw that ends up on plane, why fix it?
You only have to ask Aztec how difficult it is to cure a throw at the top.
If you were to ask someone to change their backswing AND the transition in their swing, it would take most folk a very long time and their game would be worse for a long time.
The book may say do  this and do that but in my experience of teaching people to play better and enjoy their golf more, sometimes the book goes out the window and two wrongs do make a right.
After all, what's more important to get right, the backswing or the downswing.


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## JustOne (Jun 8, 2012)

^
^
^
I'm not disagreeing with you Bob.

His downswing isn't right as he's having to flip the club (and then it closes). I feel that a better backswing will help the position of the downswing.


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## kid2 (Jun 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Whatever you say.
Sorry Kid2, totally lost interest now
		
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No worries Bob...No need to apologize no offence taken:thup:.....


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## kid2 (Jun 8, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			If they get it right in the backswing they are in a much better position to get it right at impact.

There is nothing wrong with working on a perfect swing, you may not achieve it but the nearer you get the better you will strike the ball.
		
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SR i have to agree with Bob to an extent....
There is no such thing as a perfect swing just look at the variance on the tours...

To be honest everyones swing has compensations somewhere in it...
All im trying to do is narrow my dispersion......Off the tee is where im loosing strokes..I can put up with missing greens as the short game isnt too bad....
But whats stopping my handicap from tumbling quicker are destructive tee shots....

Take it from my perspective.....Started playing the game with a slice and a bad one at that...Figured out after a while that grip and alignment were the blame and sorted that....Slice became a nice controllable fade.......
But....I wasnt happy was i!......I decided id give S&T a wallop..It went well for a time but i never actually stayed with it long enough to make it work....Probably a big mistake...But there is always the present..I spent 12 months then trying to draw the ball with Bobs sponge drill and for the most part it was working except i was really struggling with the longer clubs......
Where im at now though is that im loosing the ball both ways left and right....Its only something small as i can have stormers of ball striking rounds but where i get a little nervous is the direction i want to start the ball at...

As you can imagine when your loosing it both ways its hard to trust where your aiming....

Im a bit of a stubborn so and so with regards to doing things myself which is why i havent gone the lessons route.......I know that i have the ability and the patience to get lower and if that means asking a few harmless questions on here every now and again then so be it.... 
Im always grateful to Bob and James for helping me and if im honest Bob does know what he is talking about his advice has helped me along the way from when i first started playing....It was his advice that stopped me slicing the ball...
And getting advice from James has also been good....I get his insight from playing to a low handicap with a conventional swing and also now from his present S&T route....

Its great that this forum has members like them...Only for them id be stuck still slicing the ball


Also i agree with what your saying in that if you can minimize some of the bad things being done it puts you in a better place.....But.......There will always be compensations to be made. Regardless of how good you can get your swing...Thats a given!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 8, 2012)

kid2 said:



			SR i have to agree with Bob to an extent....
There is no such thing as a perfect swing just look at the variance on the tours...

To be honest everyones swing has compensations somewhere in it...
All im trying to do is narrow my dispersion......Off the tee is where im loosing strokes..I can put up with missing greens as the short game isnt too bad....
But whats stopping my handicap from tumbling quicker are destructive tee shots....

Take it from my perspective.....Started playing the game with a slice and a bad one at that...Figured out after a while that grip and alignment were the blame and sorted that....Slice became a nice controllable fade.......
But....I wasnt happy was i!......I decided id give S&T a wallop..It went well for a time but i never actually stayed with it long enough to make it work....Probably a big mistake...But there is always the present..I spent 12 months then trying to draw the ball with Bobs sponge drill and for the most part it was working except i was really struggling with the longer clubs......
Where im at now though is that im loosing the ball both ways left and right....Its only something small as i can have stormers of ball striking rounds but where i get a little nervous is the direction i want to start the ball at...

As you can imagine when your loosing it both ways its hard to trust where your aiming....

Im a bit of a stubborn so and so with regards to doing things myself which is why i havent gone the lessons route.......I know that i have the ability and the patience to get lower and if that means asking a few harmless questions on here every now and again then so be it.... 
Im always grateful to Bob and James for helping me and if im honest Bob does know what he is talking about his advice has helped me along the way from when i first started playing....It was his advice that stopped me slicing the ball...
And getting advice from James has also been good....I get his insight from playing to a low handicap with a conventional swing and also now from his present S&T route....

Its great that this forum has members like them...Only for them id be stuck still slicing the ball


Also i agree with what your saying in that if you can minimize some of the bad things being done it puts you in a better place.....But.......There will always be compensations to be made. Regardless of how good you can get your swing...Thats a given!
		
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I have not suggested that you must get a perfect golf swing.  I have only stated that if you can work on getting the club in the right places then it will help your ball striking.  I think that accepting a situation where you need to make unnecessary adjustments will only lead to a lack of consistency and poor ball striking.

Others do it so it cannot be beyond your ability to get a nice consistent swing and good ball striking.    I am not out to discredit anyone, I happen to agree with many of the things suggested here.

Try to think of ball striking in it's most simplest form.  The golf swing is not a black art its mostly a natural action that does not require a lot of advanced skill.     I would suggest that you take a bit of time thinking through your swing,  rerun some videos of it and consider what is creating your inconsistency.  Try to think of ways that you can stay centered, reduce twisting in the arms and wrists and return the clubface square to the ball.

May the force go with you  :thup:


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## RGDave (Jun 9, 2012)

It's long thread, is it not?

I haven't read the whys and how and wherefores, but I do know that 3 weeks ago I was all over the place, hitting it nice but SO inconsistent. I've improved my plane on the backswing no end and my consistency is back (albeit with a week in hell en route). Co-incidence, or a worthwhile investment of my time?

I'd have thought you don't need a perfect swing to play golf, but the better it is, the less work to groove something consistent enough to take to the course...


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## timchump (Jun 9, 2012)

my two pennies worth.....

my first lesson with a new pro this year, he says "today were going to work on your back swing"
i couldn't help thinking this isn't going to make much difference and i really would rather work  on something else, but i went with it

he identified exactly what justone has done in the original post, i had the same fault and worked on keeping the club head outside the hands as in the justin rose pics.

i agree you could hit good shots with your fault a la matt kucher, but working on keeping club outside the hands worked for me, i'm  not a talented sports person, i think people like me need to hit key points in the swing have a better chance of hitting good shots, unlike more talented people and the pros who can hit good shots regardless of little idiosyncrasies 

it is a common fault that just one has identified why not work on it? i had to pay Â£20 to be told this


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## RGDave (Jun 9, 2012)

timchump said:



			my two pennies worth.....

my first lesson with a new pro this year, he says "today were going to work on your back swing"
i couldn't help thinking this isn't going to make much difference and i really would rather work  on something else, but i went with it

he identified exactly what justone has done in the original post, i had the same fault and worked on keeping the club head outside the hands as in the justin rose pics.

i agree you could hit good shots with your fault a la matt kucher, but working on keeping club outside the hands worked for me, i'm  not a talented sports person, i think people like me need to hit key points in the swing have a better chance of hitting good shots, unlike more talented people and the pros who can hit good shots regardless of little idiosyncrasies 

it is a common fault that just one has identified why not work on it? i had to pay Â£20 to be told this
		
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Agreed. Cost me Â£20 too!

and today cost me another Â£20, but I'm as happy as bunny in fresh grass. Can't wait to play tomorrow


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## JustOne (Jun 9, 2012)

timchump said:



			i had to pay Â£20 to be told this
		
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........ so will Kid2


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## JustOne (Jun 9, 2012)

David Feherty just interviewed McIlroy... he's the world No2....  and this is what he said....

(I'm typing it word for word as i can't be arsed to video it off the tele...)

"I'm working on getting the hands a little higher at the top of the backswing, that'll give me a little more time on the way down and,um, then I won't get it stuck in behind me and then flip it. So just trying to get the club out in front of me and on a better plane and from there, you know, I've got more room and more time to hit the ball on the line that I want to....."


Simon Holmes then went on to discuss the two plane swing however I wouldn't put McIlroy in that category at all (or recommend it) as McIlroy has such amazing tilt on his shoulders (left shoulder down) generally he's much more one plane than two... he's probably looking for no more than 1 or 2 inches.

As you can see here the left arm finishes on the shoulder plane.....
[video=youtube;P7YJc8szc_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7YJc8szc_0[/video]

:thup:


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## bobmac (Jun 10, 2012)

it is a common fault that just one has identified why not work on it?
		
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James has indeed indentified a problem in Kids backswing. Sadly he also has a fault in his downswing. Some may say it's the backswing that's causing the fault in the downswing, I dont agree.
Of course I do agree that  getting the hands a little higher is good advice FOR SOME if that is their only fault.
But most golfers I've met would find it very difficult if not impossible to change the backswing AND the downswing.
All I'm saying is if you have 2 faults and you can only fix one of them, fix the one that hits the ball, ie the one in the downswing. And if you dont agree, ask yourself this.....if kid fixes his backswing and gets his hands higher then throws at the top, how much more out to in will his downswing be?
If I was Kid, this is the position I would be trying to improve on and he can do that without touching his backswing.


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## timchump (Jun 10, 2012)

good point, and a great pic of releasing and extending towards the target  :fore:


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## JustOne (Jun 10, 2012)

This thread appears to be some kind of slagging match, I assure you I'm not party to it, I just spotted what I believe is the issue with Kids swing.... the rest is open to simple, plain discussion. Ultimately it matters not as it's his swing to tinker with.



bobmac said:



			ask yourself this.....if kid fixes his backswing and gets his hands higher then throws at the top, how much more out to in will his downswing be?
		
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It's not higher hands per se that I mention in my 1st post, it's the plane the club is on (the path of the clubhead) The club needs to go more UP rather than back. IMO the hands starting a little to the inside isn't the issue.


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## bobmac (Jun 10, 2012)

This thread appears to be some kind of slagging match
		
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Don't know if I'm to blame but if I am, don't worry James, my days on here are numbered.
Getting fed up with the argueing and the pedantic bickering that seems to be almost a daily occurence recently.


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## JustOne (Jun 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Don't know if I'm to blame but if I am,.
		
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You're not, there is no right or wrong, only opinion. :thup: Don't know why everyone continually seems to get so wound up all the time..... i don't mind if people disagree with me... seems par for the course here sometimes.... but I guess that's just part of the process... always a lot of rights/wrongs/contradictions and conflicting advise/opinion when it comes to swinging a weighted stick at a stationary sphere!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Don't know if I'm to blame but if I am, don't worry James, my days on here are numbered.
Getting fed up with the argueing and the pedantic bickering that seems to be almost a daily occurence recently.
		
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Bob. Why do you take it so personal.

Someone asks for advice on here and some of us try to help them.  You are a PGA Pro and have certain ways that you like to teach.  Others are just golfers that have ideas on golf and our own experiences to draw from.  I try to help people but not by making comments on others posts, I prefer to give my own views but if they are challenged I will try to justify how I came to my conclusions.

I would not try to discredit your posts, it's up to the OP to decide what they think will help them.   Surely you must accept that there will be differing opinions to yours, that's inevitable.   Please don't take offense from this as no one has made any personal comments about you.

If people like Myself and James are getting under your skin then maybe you can PM us and let us know how we should frame our posts so they don't irritate you.


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

Bob. Why do you take it so personal.
		
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I'm not taking anything personally.

I merely said  I'm "getting fed up with the argueing and the pedantic bickering that seems to be almost a daily occurence recently"

What's that go to do with me?

I'm talking about threads like 'Getting into competitions' that start off with a polite enquiry but quickly turns into an arguement about what exactly? And there are many others.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I'm not taking anything personally.

I merely said  I'm "getting fed up with the argueing and the pedantic bickering that seems to be almost a daily occurence recently"

What's that go to do with me?

I'm talking about threads like 'Getting into competitions' that start off with a polite enquiry but quickly turns into an arguement about what exactly? And there are many others.
		
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OK, Thanks for the explanation.  I just assumed that as you had made the comment in this thread that it was the things that have been discussed here that have brought you to say that' Your days here are numbered'.


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