# WHS Handicap Index - Finally Revealed



## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Well, I have now got access to the WHS Platform (as a member of the club Committee). I assume all golfers will then be invited to register next week? So, after the long wait , I now have my Index. It is 8.9, giving me a course handicap of 11 off whites and 10 off yellows at my place. My current CONGU handicap is 8.3, so it shows my bad performances over last few months have given me an extra 2/3 shots.

Actually, really confused. Under my playing history, my final handicap index is 8.4, as it appears in the search bar when I type my name. Yet, when I bring up the "Basic" information tab, the Handicap Index displayed is 8.9????????? Every member I have checked so far, their Index after their last score on Player History does not match their headline Index.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I have now got access to the WHS Platform (as a member of the club Committee). I assume all golfers will then be invited to register next week? So, after the long wait , I now have my Index. It is 8.9, giving me a course handicap of 11 off whites and 10 off yellows at my place. My current CONGU handicap is 8.3, so it shows my bad performances over last few months have given me an extra 2/3 shots.

Actually, really confused. Under my playing history, my final handicap index is 8.4, as it appears in the search bar when I type my name. Yet, when I bring up the "Basic" information tab, the Handicap Index displayed is 8.9????????? Every member I have checked so far, their Index after their last score on Player History does not match their headline Index.
		
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Have you checked on the CDH?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you checked on the CDH?
		
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The CHH only gives my CONGU handicap (or at least, that is what I'm looking at right now, where my handicap shown as 8.3c


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## Bdill93 (Oct 13, 2020)

My club is yet to even share the charts to show the new allowances/ calculate your playing handicap! Are you able to advise if this is this supposed to have been done already or is there no guidance on when to do so from England Golf?


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## happyhacker (Oct 13, 2020)

You won't be alone. Not a peep about this change at all from our club in Scotland.


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## chrisd (Oct 13, 2020)

happyhacker said:



			You won't be alone. Not a peep about this change at all from our club in Scotland.
		
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Nor mine.  I was told it's all on the notice board, the one in the clubhouse which hardly anyone is going in 😖


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			My club is yet to even share the charts to show the new allowances/ calculate your playing handicap! Are you able to advise if this is this supposed to have been done already or is there no guidance on when to do so from England Golf?
		
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Our chart was only delivered last week, the owner put it up in the Conservatory for golfers to see it, soon to be bolted on wall.

It may be that they haven't got the sign yet, or are simply not going to put it up until the changeover date? Presumably they have given you the Slope for each set of tees? Although, as some have said, there may still be clubs out there that have not even be measured up yet?


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## Bdill93 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Our chart was only delivered last week, the owner put it up in the Conservatory for golfers to see it, soon to be bolted on wall.

It may be that they haven't got the sign yet, or are simply not going to put it up until the changeover date? Presumably they have given you the Slope for each set of tees? Although, as some have said, there may still be clubs out there that have not even be measured up yet?
		
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We've been measured, I've found all that data from the link on another WHS forum, but it hasnt been shared with our members at all! They must just be taking a very relaxed approach to it all I suppose and will just stick it up when we switch over. Annoying though, I just kinda want to know what my handicap will be  Apparently thats too much to ask of our club at present! Thanks for the reply!


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## upsidedown (Oct 13, 2020)




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## MendieGK (Oct 13, 2020)

I’ve been told mine now too, very confused as there seems to have been no PCC calculated for any of the rounds.... in a lot of my best scores the CSS went up a lot! So basically I’ve been screwed for playing wel in bad conditions


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I’ve been told mine now too, very confused as there seems to have been no PCC calculated for any of the rounds.... in a lot of my best scores the CSS went up a lot! So basically I’ve been screwed for playing wel in bad conditions
		
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I noticed that as well. Course Rating for all mine was either that of yellows or whites (as expected), but PCC for everything is 0.0 when I know that was not the case with CSS.

I'm still massively confused as to why the Handicap Index on the scoring record does not match up with the headline Index under Basic info.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 13, 2020)

We received the under mentioned yesterday which seems a bit late in the day and thought they probably had this info. as I thought I was registered with EG.

Any comments would be appreciated.


“As a valued member of this golf club, your privacy is important to us, and we want to ensure that your data is used only in the ways you authorise. As a club we are affiliated to England Golf and they have requested the following data to be sent to them, from our records, together with scores, in order for them to process a WHS handicap index. Please choose below whether you are happy to send this data.

Date of Birth
Email Address
Gender”


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

I think I've interpreted the mismatching Index.

On the Scoring History, I think the Handicap Index is the Index BEFORE you played that round. Therefore, if the headline Index is different, it means that your Index was adjusted after the last round. However, I think that will be confusing to a lot of golfers, especially as it jumps all over the place so it can be difficult to visualise why it changed to what it did. Also, it is weird that when you search for a player, their name appears on the search bar with the Index on their Playing History rather than the Index under Basic Info. However, if my theory above is correct, the Index on their Playing History is out of date, so no idea why it appears on the search bar.

Apart from that, it looks pretty good, first impression. Your best 8 scores are highlighted, and it shows your Low Index above the Scoring History, which presumably is the low limit for Hard and Soft caps.


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## IanMcC (Oct 13, 2020)

Is there a new website for this WHS platform? I come under Wales Golf, and as a M&H Secretary I access wales.cdh.GolfBox to check people's handicap. All of that is still in CONGU speak. CDH lookup on ClubV1 still in old money as well.
I have ordered the conversion charts and they have arrived. (One A3 for each locker room, and one A0 sized board to be bolted to the starters hut.) Not going to erect them until nearer the start date though, as people may be confused. I have sent every member a proof of the chart though, and also sent a presentation out explaining the changeover.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I noticed that as well. Course Rating for all mine was either that of yellows or whites (as expected), but PCC for everything is 0.0 when I know that was not the case with CSS.

I'm still massively confused as to why the Handicap Index on the scoring record does not match up with the headline Index under Basic info.
		
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I haven't seen any of this yet as just a Club member. Are the CSS adjustments somehow in the adjusted gross score/differential  and not specifically itemised? Presumably you can cross refer to the CONGU record.Perhaps the PCC column is just for future PCC adjustments?


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I think I've interpreted the mismatching Index.



Apart from that, it looks pretty good, first impression. Your best 8 scores are highlighted, and it shows your Low Index above the Scoring History, which presumably is the low limit for Hard and Soft caps.
		
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Does your Low Index look correct? England Golf told me it would be the closing CONGU handicap. I am still not convinced about that. Does your figure relate to anything like that?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Is there a new website for this WHS platform? I come under Wales Golf, and as a M&H Secretary I access wales.cdh.GolfBox to check people's handicap. All of that is still in CONGU speak. CDH lookup on ClubV1 still in old money as well.
I have ordered the conversion charts and they have arrived. (One A3 for each locker room, and one A0 sized board to be bolted to the starters hut.) Not going to erect them until nearer the start date though, as people may be confused. I have sent every member a proof of the chart though, and also sent a presentation out explaining the changeover.
		
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Yes, it is the England Golf WHS Platform. However, given you are in Wales, I'm not entirely sure what you will be using? We were asked to register a few weeks ago, and today they sent an e-mail saying it had been updated to inlcude the WHS Handicap Index values for players. So, I can basically look up anyone at my club (in fact, I think I can look up anyone at any club).


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## IanMcC (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, it is the England Golf WHS Platform. However, given you are in Wales, I'm not entirely sure what you will be using? We were asked to register a few weeks ago, and today they sent an e-mail saying it had been updated to inlcude the WHS Handicap Index values for players. So, I can basically look up anyone at my club (in fact, I think I can look up anyone at any club).
		
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Cheers for that. Sounds like Wales Golf might be lagging  a little.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Does your Low Index look correct? England Golf told me it would be the closing CONGU handicap. I am still not convinced about that. Does your figure relate to anything like that?
		
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Definitely not the CONGU handicap, as that is not really comparable to Index (it will usually be higher, not for me though as I've been rubbish)

However, you can scroll down every score in a players record. I have played 53 rounds since this time last year (109 since Jan 2018), and each score has your index at the time next to it. My Low Index is definitely the lowest value I have had in that record since this time last year. Checking another friend, who has had 41 rounds since Jan 2018, but less than 20 since this time last year, his low index is 5.9. That corresponds to his Index 15 rounds ago, which was within the last year. So, I guess it works as would be expected under normal WHS. Mind you, 36 rounds ago, in May 2018, his Index was +1.2.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Definitely not the CONGU handicap, as that is not really comparable to Index (it will usually be higher, not for me though as I've been rubbish)

However, you can scroll down every score in a players record. I have played 53 rounds since this time last year (109 since Jan 2018), and each score has your index at the time next to it. My Low Index is definitely the lowest value I have had in that record since this time last year. Checking another friend, who has had 41 rounds since Jan 2018, but less than 20 since this time last year, his low index is 5.9. That corresponds to his Index 15 rounds ago, which was within the last year. So, I guess it works as would be expected under normal WHS. Mind you, 36 rounds ago, in May 2018, his Index was +1.2.
		
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That has logic to it but I was assured twice by EG that the LI would be the final CONGU Handicap on 1/11/20. So we will have to see if I was told a load a rubbish or they will substitute that in as a starting figure.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			That has logic to it but I was assured twice by EG that the LI would be the final CONGU Handicap on 1/11/20. So we will have to see if I was told a load a rubbish or they will substitute that in as a starting figure.
		
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Personally, I would find that very unusual. As said, the CONGU handicap is not really related to Handicap Index. A handicap Index is "de-sloped", and given most courses have a slope over 113, and well over this, then their Index will be lower than their average gross differential (i think I have the terminology right). So, if my 8 best scores were all 10 over Course Rating, then that would be an average of 10.0, but this is not my index (but it would be my course handicap, assuming all rounds on same tees and course). My index would be  8.5 based on a Slope of 133. It was appearing that the vast majority of golfers will have a lower Index than their CONGU handicap, but their Course handicaps will be more comparable to CONGU. 

So, if that seems to be the general pattern, it would be strange to use the CONGU handicap as the low value. Given that they have a whole set of scores from Jan 2018, I wonder why they cannot just use the scores within the last year to set the low handicap index, which would be consistent to how it will be done going forward. This appears to be what the website is showing, perhaps England Golf had a change of heart, or the site isn't fully accurate yet?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2020)

I’m guessing this isn’t active within IG yet


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## MendieGK (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			At the risk of groans all round, it's the best 8 of your last 20 (6 of 17 for me), averaged out somehow in relation to SSS/CSS???
		
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We’ll kind of. If using CSS I should be .3 instead I come up as 1.3


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			At the risk of groans all round, it's the best 8 of your last 20 (6 of 17 for me), averaged out somehow in relation to SSS/CSS???
		
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This doesn't seem to be the case. All adjusted gross scores appear to use the Course Rating (not SSS or CSS) and all PCC values are zero. This is how they'd be used when it is live. However, I'm not sure if they have used any fiddle factors in background to account for CSS when putting the scores in up to now.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			This doesn't seem to be the case. All adjusted gross scores appear to use the Course Rating (not SSS or CSS) and all PCC values are zero. This is how they'd be used when it is live. However, I'm not sure if they have used any fiddle factors in background to account for CSS when putting the scores in up to now.
		
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I will add, I calculated Handicap Index values previous to getting access to this website, and I used CSS. I do seem to be getting different results to the England Golf Calcs, as MendieGK also seems to be finding. So, I suspect CSS has not been used, or even SSS. Instead, they may well just be using CR as it stands.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			What's PCC?
I know the course rating.
		
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It is the Playing Conditions Calculation. It effectively does what CSS does now (but worked out differently).


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## harpo_72 (Oct 13, 2020)

And the site is down ... just went through it all, what a statistical phaff...think I will play off scratch and accept I am rubbish instead of trying to hide behind lists of numbers, fudge factors and excuses ... goddam America is killing our culture


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Personally, I would find that very unusual. As said, the CONGU handicap is not really related to Handicap Index. A handicap Index is "de-sloped", and given most courses have a slope over 113, and well over this, then their Index will be lower than their average gross differential (i think I have the terminology right). So, if my 8 best scores were all 10 over Course Rating, then that would be an average of 10.0, but this is not my index (but it would be my course handicap, assuming all rounds on same tees and course). My index would be  8.5 based on a Slope of 133. It was appearing that the vast majority of golfers will have a lower Index than their CONGU handicap, but their Course handicaps will be more comparable to CONGU.

So, if that seems to be the general pattern, it would be strange to use the CONGU handicap as the low value. Given that they have a whole set of scores from Jan 2018, I wonder why they cannot just use the scores within the last year to set the low handicap index, which would be consistent to how it will be done going forward. This appears to be what the website is showing, perhaps England Golf had a change of heart, or the site isn't fully accurate yet?
		
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I agree with all the above in logic. I personally feel, however, that basing a Low Index at this starting point on data from almost three years ago will establish false and restrictive Low Indexes. That would often be in conflict with the overall intention of creating handicaps in line with current performance. I started a separate thread on this previously. I think many players declining in age and standard will be penalised and constrained by this capping feature if it kicks in immediately. Therefore, I saw the transfer of the CONGU figure as allowing some leeway. I guess we will have to wait and see for this one on 2/11/20.If I was advised correctly, then of course the very next day, any new HI could potentially change the Low Index but that would only apply after improvement in the players record.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I agree with all the above in logic. I personally feel, however, that basing a Low Index at this starting point on data from almost three years ago will establish false and restrictive Low Indexes. *That would often be in conflict with the overall intention of creating handicaps in line with current performance*. I started a separate thread on this previously. I think many players declining in age and standard will be penalised and constrained by this capping feature if it kicks in immediately. Therefore, I saw the transfer of the CONGU figure as allowing some leeway. I guess we will have to wait and see for this one on 2/11/20.
		
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In terms of the bit I highlighted, this would be relevant at any point, whether it be 2nd November 2020, or the year 2025 when we are in full flow. In other words, as soon as a low limit is set, you can then always argue this case in bold. I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but it is important to have such a feature, otherwise you could have someone playing off scratch one day, then over a few months play 20 rounds (or even less) of really bad golf, then have a handicap of 30 (extreme example, but trying to highlight how easy it would be for a massive increase if anything before your last 20 rounds was entirely forgotten).

I think in your case, after 20 rounds of golf, a handicap can still go up by up to 5 shots (and that would be around 6 shots in terms of course handicap). I'd imagine that should usually be more than enough to account for declining ability. Of course, handicap committees can still intervene if they need to


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 13, 2020)

Well that’s explained everything in layman’s terms.
Still none the wiser.
Our board is up on the wall.
Watched people scratching their heads and just shrugging.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			In terms of the bit I highlighted, this would be relevant at any point, whether it be 2nd November 2020, or the year 2025 when we are in full flow. In other words, as soon as a low limit is set, you can then always argue this case in bold. I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but it is important to have such a feature, otherwise you could have someone playing off scratch one day, then over a few months play 20 rounds (or even less) of really bad golf, then have a handicap of 30 (extreme example, but trying to highlight how easy it would be for a massive increase if anything before your last 20 rounds was entirely forgotten).

I think in your case, after 20 rounds of golf, a handicap can still go up by up to 5 shots (and that would be around 6 shots in terms of course handicap). I'd imagine that should usually be more than enough to account for declining ability. Of course, handicap committees can still intervene if they need to
		
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I think the capping process is fine and I agree with it for the future. I just think it is flawed at the outset of this conversion when such out of data is used in the initial calculation.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I think the capping process is fine and I agree with it for the future. I just think it is flawed at the outset of this conversion when such out of data is used in the initial calculation.
		
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But, is it not just the same amount of information that will be going into it at any time effectively. Moving forward, it won't suddenly only look back 1 year and ignore all scores before (as it needs the scores before to check low index). So, I can't see the difference between being happy with a low index in 3 years time, but not happy with it now, given it is being used in the same way


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## IanG (Oct 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just over two weeks to go....

Indicative handicap indexes not published, home course not rated, players none the wiser. Deep Joy.
		
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I find the radio silence from Scottish Golf on this ominous. Every time I ask our GM about it she talks of software issues between IG and ScottishGolf. 

Mortonhall's 2013 ratings are here - do you expect your recent course improvements  will change the ratings much ? 

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17070


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			But, is it not just the same amount of information that will be going into it at any time effectively. Moving forward, it won't suddenly only look back 1 year and ignore all scores before (as it needs the scores before to check low index). So, I can't see the difference between being happy with a low index in 3 years time, but not happy with it now, given it is being used in the same way
		
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For those people who submit regular acceptable scores they will have both a realistic and evolving HI. At the same time the rolling LI will only look back at Indexes over 365 days. Previously, most acceptable scores will have come from Competitions and for many 20 scores will potentially go back to 1/1/18 and penalise those with limited history. Sensible golfers will have upped their acceptable scores to remove old data but their 365 day look back will still hold Low Indexes going a long way back and over many rounds of golf.

In the other thread, I explained the effect on my own record and I think for higher handicappers the drag effect may be even greater.


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## happyhacker (Oct 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just over two weeks to go....

Indicative handicap indexes not published, home course not rated, players none the wiser. Deep Joy.
		
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Glad we aren't the only Scottish club with radio silence. I'm sure it will all work out fine 🤣


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			For those people who submit regular acceptable scores they will have both a realistic and evolving HI. At the same time the rolling LI will only look back at Indexes over 365 days. Previously, most acceptable scores will have come from Competitions and for many 20 scores will potentially go back to 1/1/18 and penalise those with limited history. Sensible golfers will have upped their acceptable scores to remove old data but their 365 day look back will still hold Low Indexes going a long way back and over many rounds of golf.

In the other thread, I explained the effect on my own record and I think for higher handicappers the drag effect may be even greater.
		
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It isn't that simply. Yes, the low limit looks back 365 days ago. However, to get that low limit, scores older than 365 days would have been used.

It is my understanding, the low limit only applies once a golfer has submitted 20 scores, although would need to double check the text. 

However, if golfers had only submitted 20 scores between the year 2022 and 2025, then their handicap index may not be the most up to date. Just the same as if they have only entered 20 scores between Jan 2018 and now. So, I think you'd still generally have the same problem at any point, if golfers rarely submit scores


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## Mozza14 (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It isn't that simply. Yes, the low limit looks back 365 days ago. However, to get that low limit, scores older than 365 days would have been used.

It is my understanding, the low limit only applies once a golfer has submitted 20 scores, although would need to double check the text.

However, if golfers had only submitted 20 scores between the year 2022 and 2025, then their handicap index may not be the most up to date. Just the same as if they have only entered 20 scores between Jan 2018 and now. So, I think you'd still generally have the same problem at any point, if golfers rarely submit scores
		
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Yes but that would be the golfers own problem if they didn't submit many scores. They are also unlikely to be ones testing the soft and hard cap limits. I am talking about those who want to use the system now it is here and like myself have input supplementary scores because my game has deteriorated but I may  be limited by a LI of 3.4 which will be with me until July 2021 when my current index is more like 6.0 already. I can assure you that 6.0 is justified with potential upside. A lot of my data in the 3.4 LI is from 2018. All this before we have even started. I can see, my point is not being accepted so I will leave it on the record but no further comment until we see what happens when it goes live.

It was in response to these concerns that England Golf WHS team told me that the starting LI would be the CONGU Handicap. The examples posted so far don't indicate that, so they may well have given me guff.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Yes but that would be the golfers own problem if they didn't submit many scores. They are also unlikely to be ones testing the soft and hard cap limits. I am talking about those who want to use the system now it is here and like myself have input supplementary scores because my game has deteriorated but I may  be limited by a LI of 3.4 which will be with me until July 2021 when my current index is more like 6.0 already. I can assure you that 6.0 is justified with potential upside. A lot of my data in the 3.4 LI is from 2018. All this before we have even started. I can see, my point is not being accepted so I will leave it on the record but no further comment until we see what happens when it goes live.

It was in response to these concerns that England Golf WHS team told me that the starting LI would be the CONGU Handicap. The examples posted so far don't indicate that, so they may well have given me guff.
		
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But, if your low index is 3.4, and you think your current ability is 6.0, then there should not be an issue. Even if your initial index works out lower than 6.0, as you submit scores it should quickly start approaching 6.0, if that is your limit. That doesn't even trigger the soft cap, lst alone the hard cap.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I’ve been told mine now too, very confused as there seems to have been no PCC calculated for any of the rounds.... in a lot of my best scores the CSS went up a lot! So basically I’ve been screwed for playing wel in bad conditions
		
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A PCC cannot show because there would be no way to calculate one from CONGU data. However the CSS would have been used in the calculation instead of the Course Rating.
So the Score Differential is 
(113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CSS) rather than
(113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CR - PCC)


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Personally, I would find that very unusual. As said, the CONGU handicap is not really related to Handicap Index. A handicap Index is "de-sloped", and given most courses have a slope over 113, and well over this, then their Index will be lower than their average gross differential (i think I have the terminology right).* So, if my 8 best scores were all 10 over Course Rating, then that would be an average of 10.0, but this is not my index (but it would be my course handicap, assuming all rounds on same tees and course). My index would be  8.5 based on a Slope of 133.* It was appearing that the vast majority of golfers will have a lower Index than their CONGU handicap, but their Course handicaps will be more comparable to CONGU.
		
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That's how it works

PS I haven't worked my way through the whole thread yet so may have duplicated other answers


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## MendieGK (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A PCC cannot show because there would be no way to calculate one from CONGU data. However the CSS would have been used in the calculation instead of the Course Rating.
So the Score Differential is
(113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CSS) rather than
(113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CR - PCC)
		
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Thanks for the reply. I hoped you would. I still find it hard to understand how my handicap is 1 whole shot higher than me doing the calculations you’ve shown there.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Thanks for the reply. I hoped you would. I still find it hard to understand how my handicap is 1 whole shot higher than me doing the calculations you’ve shown there.
		
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I'm a bit concerned that others are suggesting that CSS is not being used. That is what I was told by EG.


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## louise_a (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you checked on the CDH?
		
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England Golf's members area is currently unavailable due to updates being done for WHS


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm a bit concerned that others are suggesting that CSS is not being used. That is what I was told by EG.
		
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It didn't appear to be used looking at my scores and looking at the platform. Looked to use Course Rating. Which is why everyone who has been independently calculating their up to now are noticing different results on the WHS platform


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm a bit concerned that others are suggesting that CSS is not being used. That is what I was told by EG.
		
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I've just looked at one of my scores for a round where CSS moved...

I shot a gross 80 on the day with no blow up holes....CSS for the day was 68 (SSS normally 69)

In my WHS record it shows me as a normalised gross differential of 10.3.....if I do the calculation (113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CSS) I get (113/124)*(80-68) = 10.9

If I do the calculation (113/Slope)* (Adj Gross-CR) I get (113/124)*(80-68.7) = 10.3

so its plain the WHS is using the second formula and not taking the CSS of the day into account.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It is my understanding, the low limit only applies once a golfer has submitted 20 scores, although would need to double check the text.
		
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Correct. 5.7 bullet 1


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It is the Playing Conditions Calculation. It effectively does what CSS does now (but worked out differently).
		
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The main difference is that the PCC is shown separately from the Course Rating. Values -1 thru +3. CSS is added to the SSS(CR) and shown as a total figure (but same range of values).


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I've just looked at one of my scores for a round where CSS moved...

I shot a gross 80 on the day with no blow up holes....CSS for the day was 68 (SSS normally 69)

In my WHS record it shows me as a normalised gross differential of 10.3.....if I do the calculation (113/Slope) * (Adj Gross - CSS) I get (113/124)*(80-68) = 10.9

If I do the calculation (113/Slope)* (Adj Gross-CR) I get (113/124)*(80-68.7) = 10.3

so its plain the WHS is using the second formula and not taking the CSS of the day into account.
		
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That is worrying.

From EG email 8th Oct "_It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS)."_


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is worrying.

From EG email 8th Oct "_It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS)."_

Click to expand...

I'm more worried about the fact that 97 of my members are not going to have a handicap index on Nov 2nd....actually I'm more worried that they wont have one next Monday when they will allegedly be given access to the platform!!!

I'm not so bothered about those who havent played a competetive or supplementary round in the last two years...I'm more bothered about those who have joined in the last three months, put their three cards in for initial handicap but have only played 1 or 2 qualifying rounds....they're about to go into the new world without an index through no fault if their own.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2020)

Can someone confirm how we can see these via IG ?


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

[


Traminator said:



			So have I got this right....?
113÷128 = 0.88
A score of 69 against CSS 72 is - 3
*So that particular differential is -2.65.*

Take your best 8 (or whatever) and average them?
Thanks.
		
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To 1 dec. ie 2.7

But (0.88 x 3) is 2.64 rounded to 2.6


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can someone confirm how we can see these via IG ?
		
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That’s the plan, clubs have them now but not being put out there yet as the are several anomalies and issues that have appeared.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That’s the plan, clubs have them now but not being put out there yet as the are several anomalies and issues that have appeared.
		
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I can’t see it via the handicap portal on IG ( I’m an admin )


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can someone confirm how we can see these via IG ?
		
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AS individual golfers....you cannot at this moment in time.

Players may be invited to log in to the WHS platform from next Monday if my understanding is correct, currently only "club officials" have access.

It may well be that the only means that players have of accessing their records is via the WHS platform, my own belief is that ultimately the ISV software will simply be reduced to being a competition management/booking software with membership and bar management etc etc options bolted on. All handicap related matters will be managed by the WHS platform....al the ISV software will have to do is to tell the WHS the scores for the day.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see it via the handicap portal on IG ( I’m an admin )
		
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OK...as an ammendment to my post above....I dont think you can access it via IG...even if you are an admin. (I cant access it via Handicapmaster...and I'm an admin for that)

Access must be directly via the WHS platform using the log in details that you or soemone would have provided to the WHS back in July or thereabouts.


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see it via the handicap portal on IG ( I’m an admin )
		
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Not showing on the ISV yet but showing on the WHS dashboard that admin and some HC members will have access to.


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			AS individual golfers....you cannot at this moment in time.

Players may be invited to log in to the WHS platform from next Monday if my understanding is correct, currently only "club officials" have access.

It may well be that the only means that players have of accessing their records is via the WHS platform, my own belief is that ultimately the ISV software will simply be reduced to being a competition management/booking software with membership and bar management etc etc options bolted on. All handicap related matters will be managed by the WHS platform....al the ISV software will have to do is to tell the WHS the scores for the day.
		
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My understanding is your index will be shown by the clubs ISV and where they provide an app like HDID with V1 you will have full access to info from there although you will also have the option of login on to the WHS portal


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Thanks.
I'll wait for the official news, but I'm going to have the biggest vanity handicap in the country 😡😡😡😡, looking ridiculous.
		
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On the positive side you can whack a few supplementries in now there are no categories.

Failing that enjoy the vanity handicap over the winter months


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Lol, no far too old and realistic for that 😅
Currently flit from 1 to 0, ideally 1, calculations work out at +1.4 which just isn't me. Seems a bit unfair considering the handful of 79s and the 81 recorded this year 🤷‍♂️.
		
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Surley that’s just your index, not necessarily the handicap you will play at your and other courses.


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Lol, no far too old and realistic for that 😅
Currently flit from 1 to 0, ideally 1, calculations work out at +1.4 which just isn't me. Seems a bit unfair considering the handful of 79s and the 81 recorded this year 🤷‍♂️.
		
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What is your range of gross differentials in the best 8 of the last 20?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Lol, no far too old and realistic for that 😅
Currently flit from 1 to 0, ideally 1, calculations work out at +1.4 which just isn't me. Seems a bit unfair considering the handful of 79s and the 81 recorded this year 🤷‍♂️.
		
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Need to stop shooting under par then


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My understanding is your index will be shown by the clubs ISV and where they provide an app like HDID with V1 you will have full access to info from there although you will also have the option of login on to the WHS portal
		
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I hope you are right...it will save a lot of our members a bit of grief....but with England Golf saying you wont be able to access your handicap index if you don't provide email and date of birth I have some doubts....but then...EG have been a bit of a mine of misinformation during the entire WHS journey!!!!


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I only have 17, wasn't playing in 2018 and was away in 2019 saving the world's oil supply through the Strait of Hormuz 😉.
CSS all 72, best 6 scores range from 69 to 72.
		
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OK, so +1.4 sounds about right then. 

Get your priorities right. Your handicap is more important than the world's oil supply!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2020)

Someone remind me what all this angst and confusion was designed to resolve?


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## upsidedown (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			To be honest, I understand that just looking at the numbers, it must be right.

I guess we need to change our mindset so that if we have a few low scores recently we will drop alarmingly.   But after so many years playing, we get an image of what certain numbers represent to us.

The only way is 👆 up 😅
		
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 When we emigrated to NZ we hated it at first but after 2 months having got to grips to how it works we embraced it, can't  wait for Nov 2nd


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I only have 17, wasn't playing in 2018 and was away in 2019 saving the world's oil supply through the Strait of Hormuz 😉.
CSS all 72, best 6 scores range from 69 to 72.
		
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So basically sunning yourself and getting a tan


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## woofers (Oct 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see it via the handicap portal on IG ( I’m an admin )
		
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In the Zoom calls with IG it was made clear by IG that they would not be given access by EG to data until Nov 2nd.
If you go into IG, Admin, Players, WHS Portal, FAQ, Q1:
*Frequently Asked Questions*

*1. Will the transitional handicap be available from October?*
Not through intelligentgolf. The first date we will have access to your handicap index will be on the 2nd November


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			my own belief is that ultimately the ISV software will simply be reduced to being a competition management/booking software with membership and bar management etc etc options bolted on. All handicap related matters will be managed by the WHS platform....al the ISV software will have to do is to tell the WHS the scores for the day.
		
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Basically that's it.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

The problem is that too many people want to get at the nitty gritty too soon. Reason why WHS has not published the PCC algorithm and why no national authority has published the transition formula from their national systems.

How many of us checked the way CSS is calculated when they first got a CONGU handicap?


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## IanM (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The problem is that too many people want to get at the nitty gritty too soon. Reason why WHS has not published the PCC algorithm and why no national authority has published the transition formula from their national system
		
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Aplogies for this, but how many months have you been posting doing exactly this?  (Hopefully trying to help)

Anything needing something called a "PCC Algorithm " is fundamentally flawed and those behind it need removing from office


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 32921

Rude not to 😉
		
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That looks like a long carry off the tee. No wonder you are a plus man.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

IanM said:



			Aplogies for this, but how many months have you been posting doing exactly this?  (Hopefully trying to help)
		
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That is part of my function for the county



			Anything needing something called a "PCC Algorithm " is fundamentally flawed and those behind it need removing from office 

Click to expand...

What was CSS if not that?
But how would you have made an adjustment for course and weather conditions?


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## OnTour (Oct 14, 2020)

Sounds promising I hate the current 0.1 back or poor cuts especially at my soon to be ex course.  8 from 20 I might need to be better than 3 decent knocks from 20 (be tight)


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## Mozza14 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



*The problem is that too many people want to get at the nitty gritty too soon.* Reason why WHS has not published the PCC algorithm and why no national authority has published the transition formula from their national systems.

How many of us checked the way CSS is calculated when they first got a CONGU handicap?
		
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Why is understanding the system a problem?

 Not providing the details of the transition has provided a void, not allowed Club Administrator's to get on top of it and be in a position to field queries. The late delivery of this transition data now will lead to a sudden deluge of questions and confusion. Inclusion or not of CSS-SSS and Low Index calculations on transition being two examples where England Golf have given out conflicting messages. Surely, someone has written a specification and knows what it contains.

The  PCC algorithm is not the issue but much more fundamental transitional rules. (Yes I do understand how CSS is calculated.)


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The problem is that too many people want to get at the nitty gritty too soon. Reason why WHS has not published the PCC algorithm and why no national authority has published the transition formula from their national systems.

How many of us checked the way CSS is calculated when they first got a CONGU handicap?
		
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I would have to counter this to some extent.

I would say the vast majority of golfers don't give 2 hoots about how their handicap is worked out, Congu or WHS, let alone ever heard of CSS or PCC. They just get given a number and go with it.

However, some are. And, when people are interested in such things, they come on forums like this. Many who want more detail are representatives of their club committees. It is admirable that they search for as much detail as humanely possible. In fact, I say it should be a necessity. Because, it then puts them in a better position ensure not only do they know the fundamentals (which some fan take for granted unless they delve into the implications), but they can also deal with more left field questions when members come out of the blue and ask them. They always say the teacher needs to make sure they are at least 1 step ahead of the pupil.

Most didn't know how CSS was calculated. But, they could still work it out manually if they wished, by following the look up tables in the manual. So, assuming they can accept those tables are based on sufficient analysis of scores, then CSS can be understood. However, with PCC, can the same people work this out manually? No, and fair enough, they don't need to. However, some feel more comfortable being able to work from 1st principals to truly understand something, otherwise there must be a greater feeling of blind faith in the software.

Despite that, whether understood or not, I think others have expressed fair concern that CSS was not taken into account at all for their initial WHS allocation, especially if CSS was frequently different to SSS during their best 8 rounds


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## IanM (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is part of my function for the county

What was CSS if not that?
But how would you have made an adjustment for course and weather conditions?
		
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1) Ah.
2) CSS was something you found out at the top of the results page!   Anyone trying to work it out in advance was shunned!

....any clubs reviewing their players scores over the last few months?  Any 8 handicappers failing to break 100 this summer?


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2020)

Just checked with my place and they said that they were waiting for the WHS handicaps to come back from England Golf.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm more worried about the fact that 97 of my members are not going to have a handicap index on Nov 2nd....actually I'm more worried that they wont have one next Monday when they will allegedly be given access to the platform!!!

I'm not so bothered about those who havent played a competetive or supplementary round in the last two years...I'm more bothered about those who have joined in the last three months, put their three cards in for initial handicap but have only played 1 or 2 qualifying rounds....they're about to go into the new world without an index through no fault if their own.
		
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I'm pretty sure - but I hope Rulefan or Swango might chip in - that even people with new handicaps (like myself - 6 qualifying scores in the system) will also get new WHS handicaps. They just use a different average as your qualifying rounds go in. So not 8/20 but 4/10 or 2/5 until your record has achieved the full 20 needed for an accurate handicap. 

My best 3 qualifying scores are 87, 90 and 91 on a course rated 67.1. Im hoping this means currently my index may come out around 21/22? But it's probably liable for heavy swings up and down until I have 20 scores?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I'm pretty sure - but I hope Rulefan or Swango might chip in - that even people with new handicaps (like myself - 6 qualifying scores in the system) will also get new WHS handicaps. They just use a different average as your qualifying rounds go in. So not 8/20 but 4/10 or 2/5 until your record has achieved the full 20 needed for an accurate handicap.

My best 3 qualifying scores are 87, 90 and 91 on a course rated 67.1. Im hoping this means currently my index may come out around 21/22? But it's probably liable for heavy swings up and down until I have 20 scores?
		
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That is what I was expecting. Anybody with a handicap would get a WHS handicap regardless.

However, that has not happened (for now). As with probably many clubs since lockdown reopened, we have had a lot of new members, and quite a few have done their 3 cards and got their first handicap. No problem there. But, the WHS System is now showing them with No WHS Handicap, but it instead says Pending. This looks to be also true for members who have been a member for years, but have not actually got "c" status because they've not submitted qualifying scores in last couple of years.

Now, I'm unsure if the fact it say Pending means that, in the next week England Golf will sort these out and then give a WHS handicap? Or, if it is up to Committee members at golf clubs to manually give these players a handicap (although, not exactly sure how this would be done, as a CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to a WHS Index). Or, nothing will be done, and then we will have a few dozen angry golfers next week (at my club alone) when they cannot get their Index, and they have a competition to play in


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## Bdill93 (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That is what I was expecting. Anybody with a handicap would get a WHS handicap regardless.

However, that has not happened (for now). As with probably many clubs since lockdown reopened, we have had a lot of new members, and quite a few have done their 3 cards and got their first handicap. No problem there. But, the WHS System is now showing them with No WHS Handicap, but it instead says Pending. This looks to be also true for members who have been a member for years, but have not actually got "c" status because they've not submitted qualifying scores in last couple of years.

Now, I'm unsure if the fact it say Pending means that, in the next week England Golf will sort these out and then give a WHS handicap? Or, if it is up to Committee members at golf clubs to manually give these players a handicap (although, not exactly sure how this would be done, as a CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to a WHS Index). Or, nothing will be done, and then we will have a few dozen angry golfers next week (at my club alone) when they cannot get their Index, and they have a competition to play in
		
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Cheers for the reply!

Well.... that's rubbish for me! Fingers crossed they get to us!!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

Well, thankfully the guys at WHS have resolved one issue, as I just got a reply. When searching for a player in the Search Box, when their name appeared their Handicap Index was incorrectly shown as the Index before their last round, rather than their current Index (after that round). So, they've fixed this. Also, as I suspected, they confirmed that the Index on the Playing History is the Index that applied during that round, not after. I think this will still cause some confusion to golfers, so maybe better headings in the column to clarify that.

I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)


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## DRW (Oct 14, 2020)

Just read some of the calculations basis, and as I have not played many comps, looks like I maybe getting a cut if I have worked it out correctly and if all the comps have been uploaded to HDID by the club. Based on the calculations for low number of cards submitted since 1/1/18.

Dum Dums

Not long to wait until it goes live.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)
		
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1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!


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## Bdill93 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!
		
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Whats the slope/ course rating of your place? 

Tried to calculate mine using the data provided above from my best 2 average (im a newer golfer) and it came out as 12  Im nowhere near a 12!!!


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Whats the slope/ course rating of your place?

Tried to calculate mine using the data provided above from my best 2 average (im a newer golfer) and it came out as 12  Im nowhere near a 12!!!
		
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124 and 68.7

The poor bugger whos been given a 1.9 has a limited record (even though he's been a member for a few years) with only 3 scores in it, the best of which was a score differential of 3.9, from which they subtract 2 strokes.

You may be no where near a 12 but there are two points...

1) with few scores in your record your index will be quite volatile until you get some more scores in
2) you dont actually play off your index (as I'm sure you are aware)


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			1 week for us to review the data before the golfing masses get their mitts on it is not enough.....I have 99 golfers at my club who will not have an index as it stands (primarily due to an increase in membership in the last 3 months where they have had new handicaps allocated)....I also have maybe 25 golfers who's allocated index varies by more than 30% either way from its CONGU equivalent....I'm sure they will come looking for an explanation (especially the poor bugger who has gone from 5.8 CONGU to 1.9 WHS!!!!) as to why this is.

We will manage....but the authorities haven't made it easy for us!!!
		
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I agree about the length of time. It would have been good if club committees had a chance to interrogate the WHS platform for a month or 2 at least before it went live. Giving the developers a chance to beta test it properly, have time to fix obvious errors, and refine it. Calculating the WHS Index values less than a month before launch and releasing these to the general golfing population a couple of weeks before launch seems incredibly last minute. Had golfers been able to check these out for a few months, and watch how their Index changes from one round to the next (before it is actually used on anger), it would have given golfers plenty of time to get used to the system, so when it went live, it would be less alien to many.

You'd have thought there would have been plenty of time to do this, given that I'm sure we were all talking about WHS over a year ago? I wonder how much Covid has set them back, if unexpected obstacles were discovered, or how much is to do with the fact that the Powers to Be don't think regular golfers have the attention span to find out about anything too far in advance because they'll just forget when the time comes to launch (an opinion I can't agree with)


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

As an example of historical tracking of a WHS Index v. Congu I merged the WHS data with my own Congu record to compare how the systems track/compare based on the 40 scores since Jan 2018 that are in my record.

The early days WHS (blue line) volatility is clear to see but from then on the two lines track reasonably well until around round24/25 (June July 2019) I suffered a utter breakdown in my game....whereas the Congu handicap crept up in 0.1 increments until I got an exceptional score increase, the WHS index rose much more quickly. Likewise in the last three months I've seen a return to some degree of form and the WHS has dropped more quickly....so it appears to be generally more responsive.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			124 and 68.7

The poor bugger whos been given a 1.9 has a limited record (even though he's been a member for a few years) with only 3 scores in it, the best of which was a score differential of 3.9, from which they subtract 2 strokes.

You may be no where near a 12 but there are two points...

1) with few scores in your record your index will be quite volatile until you get some more scores in
2) you dont actually play off your index (as I'm sure you are aware)
		
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My mate has an Index of 6.1, and played 41 rounds since Jan 2018. However, it is interesting looking back at his earliest rounds and his Index calculation. For the first 3 rounds, 84, 73, 72 (CR=69.4), Handicap Index is shown as 0.2. 4th round he shot an 83, his Index went to 1.2. His 5th round, he then shot a 68 (course record), and his Index went to +1.2 So, if he had stopped there, he'd be better than scratch. Been downhill since then


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2020)

I often looked at the indexes of Americans I played with while on business in the US and reckoned that their index flattered them compared to us by a couple of shots. I assumed that was due to what seemed to me to be inflated course ratings. 

At its core, the best 8 out of 20 model for handicap determination should not result in a very different handicap from the current CONGU, important qualifier here, for someone with a stable game. But a fast improving or deteriorating player will find WHS more responsive because it has a shorter frame of reference and allows greater movements in handicap. 

In the new system, it seems like the handicap index is a similarly slightly flattering number to the US index I previously found flattering to the player, but the course handicap corrects it back to something closer to the current CONGU handicap. If someone asks you what your handicap is, I think quoting the index is fine because that is more comparative than the course handicap.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I often looked at the indexes of Americans I played with while on business in the US and reckoned that their index flattered them compared to us by a couple of shots. I assumed that was due to what seemed to me to be inflated course ratings.

At its core, the best 8 out of 20 model for handicap determination should not result in a very different handicap from the current CONGU, important qualifier here, for someone with a stable game. But a fast improving or deteriorating player will find WHS more responsive because it has a shorter frame of reference and allows greater movements in handicap.

In the new system, it seems like the handicap index is a similarly slightly flattering number to the US index I previously found flattering to the player, but the course handicap corrects it back to something closer to the current CONGU handicap. If someone asks you what your handicap is, I think quoting the index is fine because that is more comparative than the course handicap.
		
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True, if someone asks what handicap you are, Index is really the only one that can be used if it is to be comparable to other people from other courses. However, come 2nd November, there will be significantly more people that can claim single figure handicap status than before. I wonder if it will be a proud moment for some to get into single figure status, even if they find their course handicap is always 10 or more (there seem to be very few courses with a Slope of 113 or less)


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That is what I was expecting. Anybody with a handicap would get a WHS handicap regardless.

However, that has not happened (for now). As with probably many clubs since lockdown reopened, we have had a lot of new members, and quite a few have done their 3 cards and got their first handicap. No problem there. But, the WHS System is now showing them with No WHS Handicap, but it instead says Pending. This looks to be also true for members who have been a member for years, but have not actually got "c" status because they've not submitted qualifying scores in last couple of years.

Now, I'm unsure if the fact it say Pending means that, in the next week England Golf will sort these out and then give a WHS handicap? Or, if it is up to Committee members at golf clubs to manually give these players a handicap (although, not exactly sure how this would be done, as a CONGU handicap is not directly comparable to a WHS Index). Or, nothing will be done, and then we will have a few dozen angry golfers next week (at my club alone) when they cannot get their Index, and they have a competition to play in
		
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Pending usually means they are moving between clubs and one club hasn't completed the exercise or that the player has been entered into the system and hasn't got 3 cards in the system.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Pending usually means they are moving between clubs and one club hasn't completed the exercise or that the player has been entered into the system and hasn't got 3 cards in the system.
		
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Not in this case however. For players who have already submitted 3 scores for their handicap, the WHS Platform has completely ignored these scores. It just says their handicap is Pending, No Scores entered. There is another chap who submitted his 3 cards, and then a supplementary card. He has no WHS Handicap, and the Platform says he has only 1 score in his playing History (i.e. his Supplementary)


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, thankfully the guys at WHS have resolved one issue, as I just got a reply. When searching for a player in the Search Box, when their name appeared their Handicap Index was incorrectly shown as the Index before their last round, rather than their current Index (after that round). So, they've fixed this. Also, as I suspected, they confirmed that the Index on the Playing History is the Index that applied during that round, not after. I think this will still cause some confusion to golfers, so maybe better headings in the column to clarify that.

I guess this is why it was a good idea to give access to clubs a week before, gives us a chance to break it and hopefully some of us have enough knowledge to ask them the right questions, before it is sent out to the masses and potentially the WHS guys being inundated with queries (although, I guess that will still happen anyway)
		
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I have just had it confirmed (again) .

*Q.* So (for the transition) in effect it is the total recorded score (adjusted for net double bogey) minus CSS?
*A.* Yes

The WHS full playing record shows a box labelled "Current HI" and a column labelled "Revised HI".


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have just had it confirmed (again) .

*Q.* So (for the transition) in effect it is the total recorded score (adjusted for net double bogey) minus CSS?
*A.* Yes

The WHS full playing record shows a box labelled "Current HI" and a column labelled "Revised HI".
		
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Where do you see this? I have just logged on, looking at my Playing History on WHS Platform, the Columns are:

Entered, Played, Course, Marker, Slope, Adj Gross, Course Rating, Score Diff, PCC, HDCP Index, Entered By

I see no sign of Current HI or Revised HI?


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Where do you see this? I have just logged on, looking at my Playing History on WHS Platform, the Columns are:

Entered, Played, Course, Marker, Slope, Adj Gross, Course Rating, Score Diff, PCC, HDCP Index, Entered By

I see no sign of Current HI or Revised HI?
		
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me neither.

and as I've already proved with my own data....CSS is not used in the transitional score calculations.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 14, 2020)

Looking at the data on the EG Platform I notice the scores have not been updated since the beginning of the month despite the competitions being closed and the handicaps updated on our Club V1 system.

Is anyone else seeing this?


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## jim8flog (Oct 14, 2020)

If you think you are hard done by

I was chatting to the County Adviser this morning

One player he knows of has gone from 9 to scratch

Only 5 cards in the system therefore based upon his best.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 14, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Looking at the data on the EG Platform I notice the scores have not been updated since the beginning of the month despite the competitions being closed and the handicaps updated on our Club V1 system.

Is anyone else seeing this?
		
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Yes my last two cards are missing from WHS but have been adjusted in my CONGU Handicap.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

They probably extracted the CDH file onto an intermediate file a few days before running the transition test.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

...and are now waiting for ISV's to update their software so that October and ongoing results get pushed to the WHS


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## fenwayrich (Oct 14, 2020)

Just logged on to our club portal for the first time, and every score for our gents appears to have been input off the reds rather than the whites or yellows. There could be trouble ahead................


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

England Golf replied to say that Pending means a Player has not enough scores in the system. 

Therefore, it appears the Portal is simply ignoring the 3 cards new members have put in for handicap, and if they have not submitted 3 cards since gaining their handicap, they won't have a WHS Handicap. So, hopefully this can be fixed, otherwise these members may well have to repeat the process all over again to get their first handicap.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, hopefully this can be fixed, otherwise these members may well have to repeat the process all over again to get their first handicap.
		
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Or the handicap sec manually re-enters the 3 scores into WHS. They will then get a WHS calculated cap automatically.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Or the handicap sec manually re-enters the 3 scores into WHS. They will then get a WHS calculated cap automatically.
		
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That is going to be a nightmare, for the following reasons:

1. We have had many new members, so this is more than a handful of golfers
2. Due to Covid, many of them have e-mailed cards. In the most part, they have posted cards physically in the box as well, so they will be filed away. However, it means going to the club and finding all these cards, which to be honest, I'm not overly keen on given they way the whole Covid thing is going. I'm bound to find others that didn't actually submit a card or 2 physically, so then I need to trawl through all the e-mails
3. I am up to my neck in work at the moment, and I'm already spending a fair bit of time this week trying to get my head around the Portal, so having to start manually entering scores for dozens and dozens of golfers is not so appealing
4. I thought England Golf would have been able to predict players with recently obtained handicaps existed, how on earth do they not accomodate for them? Also, I was lead to believe that golfers who have not submitted a score since Jan 2018, but had a handicap, would simply get a WHS Index based on estimated scores. Again, not the case. So, do handicap secretaries need to edit the handicaps of ALL these golfers, or should they wait because there is an initial glitch in the first release of the portal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Doing a quick calc - With my handicap being 8.6 (rounds to 9) I am thinking that my HI will be about 8 - and when I factor that for my course SR my 'home' course handicap will 9  Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That is going to be a nightmare, for the following reasons:

1. We have had many new members, so this is more than a handful of golfers
2. Due to Covid, many of them have e-mailed cards. In the most part, they have posted cards physically in the box as well, so they will be filed away. However, it means going to the club and finding all these cards, which to be honest, I'm not overly keen on given they way the whole Covid thing is going. I'm bound to find others that didn't actually submit a card or 2 physically, so then I need to trawl through all the e-mails
3. I am up to my neck in work at the moment, and I'm already spending a fair bit of time this week trying to get my head around the Portal, so having to start manually entering scores for dozens and dozens of golfers is not so appealing
4. I thought England Golf would have been able to predict players with recently obtained handicaps existed, how on earth do they not accomodate for them? Also, I was lead to believe that golfers who have not submitted a score since Jan 2018, but had a handicap, would simply get a WHS Index based on estimated scores. Again, not the case. So, do handicap secretaries need to edit the handicaps of ALL these golfers, or should they wait because there is an initial glitch in the first release of the portal?
		
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Wholeheartedly agree with everything your say.

Hopefully the authorities will come to their senses and take the 3 cards for initial handicap into consideration....but the last two years during the WHS implementation has taught me to assume nothing, so the handicap secretary and I are starting to work our way through the 99 golfers who are currently "pending" figuring out that index they should have if their 3 cards for handicap had been taken into account. I am not going to let my members not have an Index on November 2nd just because England Golf haven't thought their transition process through.

Of my 99, 40 of them have joined this summer but don't have 3 "other cards" that the WHS can use. 38 of the pending golfers haven't returned a score of any type since Jan 2018...in some cases up to six years!!! The remaining 21 sit somewhere in between.


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Just checked with my place and they said that they were waiting for the WHS handicaps to come back from England Golf.
		
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Your club has them but as today’s zoom meeting at our county proved, there are more questions than answers.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Wholeheartedly agree with everything your say.

Hopefully the authorities will come to their senses and take the 3 cards for initial handicap into consideration....but the last two years during the WHS implementation has taught me to assume nothing, so the handicap secretary and I are starting to work our way through the 99 golfers who are currently "pending" figuring out that index they should have if their 3 cards for handicap had been taken into account. I am not going to let my members not have an Index on November 2nd just because England Golf haven't thought their transition process through.

Of my 99, 40 of them have joined this summer but don't have 3 "other cards" that the WHS can use. 38 of the pending golfers haven't returned a score of any type since Jan 2018...in some cases up to six years!!! The remaining 21 sit somewhere in between.
		
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Good luck. If this is what England Golf are expecting of Handicap Committees, I wonder if they will inform them at any point, or just hope they all happen to find out themselves in the week they have had to look.

I'd imagine the majority of handicap committees are in for a rude awakening when all golfers get access to this, and the loads of golfers dont know why they have no index. 

But, I'm assuming it will be OK by next week, because it was all meant to be so easy.


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That is what I was expecting. Anybody with a handicap would get a WHS handicap regardless.
in
		
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Not quite, you will also need an email address and be willing to allow access to that and your DOB to EG


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Pending usually means they are moving between clubs and one club hasn't completed the exercise or that the player has been entered into the system and hasn't got 3 cards in the system.
		
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Nope, I have long term members on pending.


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Or the handicap sec manually re-enters the 3 scores into WHS. They will then get a WHS calculated cap automatically.
		
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Fine in clubs with paid officials but many clubs use volunteers for running the clubs handicaps.  EG have completely lost the plot judging by some of the responses folk on here are getting because they all seem to be different.

The project has been running for 3 years or more and in the last 2 weeks just before implementation EG expect clubs to jump through hoops for them.

Its an IT system which any decent project manager would have, as suggested, run it along side the current system not released duff data.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 14, 2020)

Sorry if this has already been raised......but did I read that each Club HAS to have a handicap committee for the WHS?
Just saying, as our club has not had one for years, probably 5-6 years. Will that matter?

As an aside, this whole WHS changeover is starting to look like a right mess. 
There was nothing wrong with the present system, and I am not looking forward to the changeover, however, I accept it IS happening..........isn't it?


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Sorry if this has already been raised......but did I read that each Club HAS to have a handicap committee for the WHS?
Just saying, as our club has not had one for years, probably 5-6 years. Will that matter?

As an aside, this whole WHS changeover is starting to look like a right mess.
There was nothing wrong with the present system, and I am not looking forward to the changeover, however, I accept it IS happening..........isn't it?
		
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Clubs have always had to have a handicap committee. Clubs should have been completing annual returns which is an Annex in CONGU stating they had one if my memory is not completely shot and sending it to county handicap officials.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Sorry if this has already been raised......but did I read that each Club HAS to have a handicap committee for the WHS?
Just saying, as our club has not had one for years, probably 5-6 years. Will that matter?

As an aside, this whole WHS changeover is starting to look like a right mess.
There was nothing wrong with the present system, and I am not looking forward to the changeover, however, I accept it IS happening..........isn't it?
		
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I assume you have at least a handicap secretary? I think clubs have always had to have handicap committees, to at least help conduct reviews


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

I got an answer regarding the new pending members from England Golf. Options are:

1. Contact the ISV (Club V1) and ask them to import the missing scores.
2. Manually put them in myself for EVERY golfer
3. Get the golfers to submit 3 new scores (I.e. get their handicap all over again)

My opinion: absolutely farcical


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not quite, you will also need an email address and be willing to allow access to that and your DOB to EG
		
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England Golf do not have ANY of our members email addresses or DoB's...but they've issued indexes for the vast majority except where noted above. It is not the case that they wont issue an Index (as they previously seemed to imply), simply that a player will not be able to access the WHS system.


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			England Golf do not have ANY of our members email addresses or DoB's...but they've issued indexes for the vast majority except where noted above. It is not the case that they wont issue an Index (as they previously seemed to imply), simply that a player will not be able to access the WHS system.
		
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They will issue an index but in today’s zoom farce it was explain that their records will not be updated as that requires the individual to register a WHS acc with EG and email address and DOB are the method of authentication.

By the end of the meeting my brain was fried but that’s how I understand it.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I got an answer regarding the new pending members from England Golf. Options are:

1. Contact the ISV (Club V1) and ask them to import the missing scores.
2. Manually put them in myself for EVERY golfer
3. Get the golfers to submit 3 new scores (I.e. get their handicap all over again)

My opinion: absolutely farcical
		
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well I've just tried option 2 for one of our guys and it took me a couple of minutes once I'd found the cards on our ISV system (HandicapMaster) and the WHS has allocated an index.

Going to try it for a player who has been given a new handicap but has a few cards in as well see how that works out.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			well I've just tried option 2 for one of our guys and it took me a couple of minutes once I'd found the cards on our ISV system (HandicapMaster) and the WHS has allocated an index.

Going to try it for a player who has been given a new handicap but has a few cards in as well see how that works out.
		
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Do you do this on your ISV as supplementary cards, or do you do this directly on WHS Portal?


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Just worked mine out again with recent rounds added.

Again its the crude calculation without slope so a bit of a rough estimate but if CSS is taken into account I'm looking at 1.1, if not... 2.6. Seems a lot of my best scores have come on rotten days!
		
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How can you do it without slope unless you area scratch player and always play to scratch?


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## nickjdavis (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you do this on your ISV as supplementary cards, or do you do this directly on WHS Portal?
		
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I cant add these as new supplementaries on the current system as they would modify the players current CONGU handicap. So I'm entering retrospective scores directly on the portal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			They will issue an index but in today’s zoom farce it was explain that their records will not be updated as that requires the individual to register a WHS acc with EG and email address and DOB are the method of authentication.

By the end of the meeting my brain was fried but that’s how I understand it.
		
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We got a request today from the club to allow the club to provide EG with our DOB and email address - clearly for the reason you have described.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Since my course isn't rated that's the only option I have to get a rough idea at the moment.
		
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Try 125. I *think* that is the value which will be assigned temporarily to unrated courses.


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## IanM (Oct 14, 2020)

3 weeks to go and our sec has issued *another *email saying all WHS queries must go to the WGU direct as he won't deal with any!    I'd love an off-the-record chat about what he thinks!

I'm ignoring all of it as I can' t currently play qualifiers as we've stopped them and I can't visit my home club due to travel restrictions over here! Sure by next March it'll be sorted or canned!


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## jim8flog (Oct 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			. 38 of the pending golfers haven't returned a score of any type since Jan 2018...in some cases up to six years.
		
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Interesting point that. Back some months ago England Golf were adamant  that such players would be given a handicap index. 

Caused a minor uproar at our club when I said they would not.


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## IanG (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I wonder if we'll stop obsessing about avoiding increases as much and just accept it for whatever it is on any given day.
		
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Agreed - I think, once the initial ructions are over,  this will be the outcome and be no bad thing.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Interesting point that. Back some months ago England Golf were adamant  that such players would be given a handicap index.

Caused a minor uproar at our club when I said they would not.
		
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It seems like they where just guessing a lot of the time. Personally, if a golfer hasn't submitted a score since Jan 2018, I'm not that bothered about them getting an index. However, it was definitely said they'd get one, so they were wrong there.

However, to not give new members a handicap, despite them only just obtaining it, is pathetic. Furthermore, even members who have just obtained a handicap, but since played 3 rounds since, will have an index but it will completely ignore their base 3 cards, which could provide a pretty unexpected handicap difference in some cases


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## Bdill93 (Oct 14, 2020)

This seems like such a joke. I don’t envy any handicap sec as of present. I’ll lose my mind, as will many of the 50+ new members at my club. Why have we bothered to get handicaps and played in comps to get more cards in too, if we don’t have a handicap index allocated to us in November 😂 hope to hear that it’s sorted before then!!


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## Canfordhacker (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think (hope) the course has been re-rated but the number not published yet. The old rating was 130 (although significant changes since then).
		
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Ours hasn't been published to us by the club, so i used the one I looked up here in my calculations.

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20242


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## Imurg (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Try 125. I *think* that is the value which will be assigned temporarily to unrated courses.
		
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Whipsnade has been given temporary ratings of 117/114 so that may, or may not, be correct


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Whipsnade has been given temporary ratings of 117/114 so that may, or may not, be correct
		
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Interesting. I guess one or more of the raters must be familiar with it.


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## TheJezster (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Try 125. I *think* that is the value which will be assigned temporarily to unrated courses.
		
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I can confirm this is the case. Whilst our course is rated, for some reason its showing as non rated on the system , which has screwed up all the indexes. 

We're hoping that EG are able to fix this, otherwise it looks like EVERY members round for the last 2 years will have to be manually v entered!! Obviously ridiculous

We're waiting on clarification


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I cant add these as new supplementaries on the current system as they would modify the players current CONGU handicap. So I'm entering retrospective scores directly on the portal.
		
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Hold fire Nick. Despite WHS replying yesterday saying that either the ISV guys need to sort this, or club committees need to manually put these scores in, I have just checked today and the new golfers whose handicap was shown as Pending, now have a handicap.

My only concern now is, one of the ladies got her first handicap of 45 a few weeks ago. She played in a competition last week, her 1st round with a handicap, and got a chop to 40.9. She also handed in a supplementary card yesterday, no change to handicap. However, her WHS Index is 45.0 (giving her a course handicap of 56.

So, I'm a bit concerned that WHS is omitting a load of rounds played in the last month or so for some players??? Also, if it is simply giving new members a Handicap Index that matches their CONGU handicap, then they will suddenly get more shots as a course handicap, especially high handicappers (given that in most cases, everyone's handicap index is lower than their current CONGU handicap


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Are you sure that are not using an old data extract?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you sure that are not using an old data extract?
		
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How do you mean (if referred to me)?

My comments were related to what was present on WHS Portal today (and still is after checking now). I think it is going to be vital for handicap secretaries to check new member handicaps. We have a few in our winter league. One chap has a Congu Handicap of 28.0 (his initial handicap was 30, but has since entered 1 score, and it went to 28.0). Therefore, his Index is 28.0. Therefore, come 2nd November, his Course Handicap off yellows will be 32, whereas most other golfers have an Index lower than their CONGU handicap, but course handicap is about the same. It also seems that scores entered in the last week or 2 are missing from the WHS portal, but I don't want to enter them manually inc ase they magically appear and are then duplicated.

Questions:


The ladies competition that happened last week is not included in any of the players WHS scoring history (it was a qualifier), nor any recent supplementary cards. Do we think these will appear at any point?
If we have qualifiers between now and November, will they appear on WHS Portal handicap calculations?
If golfers hand in supplementary cards in next few weeks, should these be entered on ISV (Club V! in my case) as normal, or directly in WHS Portal?
After 2nd November, can we enter supplementary cards in Club V1, or must these be done in WHS Portal (i.e. is Club V1 only for comps only)?


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## badgergm (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Try 125. I *think* that is the value which will be assigned temporarily to unrated courses.
		
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At the moment I don't know:

- Course rating
- Slope to be used in absence of a slope rating
- Whether SSS or CSS will be used or not

The transitional rules aren't (or shouldn't be) so complicated that they cant be clearly published in advance. It's a ridiculous situation. 

If CSS isn't used then the transition will be a farce in my view.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

As I posted in another thread

*EG.* It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS).


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			How do you mean (if referred to me)?

My comments were related to what was present on WHS Portal today (and still is after checking now). I think it is going to be vital for handicap secretaries to check new member handicaps. We have a few in our winter league. One chap has a Congu Handicap of 28.0 (his initial handicap was 30, but has since entered 1 score, and it went to 28.0). Therefore, his Index is 28.0. Therefore, come 2nd November, his Course Handicap off yellows will be 32, whereas most other golfers have an Index lower than their CONGU handicap, but course handicap is about the same. It also seems that scores entered in the last week or 2 are missing from the WHS portal, but I don't want to enter them manually inc ase they magically appear and are then duplicated.

Questions:


The ladies competition that happened last week is not included in any of the players WHS scoring history (it was a qualifier), nor any recent supplementary cards. Do we think these will appear at any point?
If we have qualifiers between now and November, will they appear on WHS Portal handicap calculations?
If golfers hand in supplementary cards in next few weeks, should these be entered on ISV (Club V! in my case) as normal, or directly in WHS Portal?
After 2nd November, can we enter supplementary cards in Club V1, or must these be done in WHS Portal (i.e. is Club V1 only for comps only)?


Click to expand...

I suspect the data was extracted from the CDH to provide simulated data input to WHS some days ago. This file is formatted as will be the file the ISVs send in the overnight run.
This will formatted with the score information taken from the player's input and the static course details. I doubt that the WHS can/will actually take data directly from the CDH. The CDH will simply stop on Nov 2.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I posted in another thread

*EG.* It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS).
		
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Apologies, but have you seen the WHS Platform yet??? As others have said, there is no evidence as all yet that CSS has been used. I will give you an example.

We had a competition on 29/8/20 in which the CSS was 71 (SSS=69). The winner shot gross 88 (no nett double bogey adjustments required). The Slope of the Course is 133

So, if CSS was used, his Score differential would be = (88-71) x 113/133 = 14.4

If Course Rating was used (which is 69.4), his Score differential would be = (88-69.4) x 113/133 = 15.8

The WHS Platform clearly shows his "Score Diff" for that round as 15.8, which means that CSS has not been used at all.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I suspect the data was extracted from the CDH to provide simulated data input to WHS some days ago. This file is formatted as will be the file the ISVs send in the overnight run.
This will formatted with the score information taken from the player's input and the static course details. I doubt that the WHS can/will actually take data directly from the CDH. The CDH will simply stop on Nov 2.
		
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We haven't had any updates to scores on the EG Platform for a couple of weeks despite them being processed on Club V1.

There must be a synchronisation before they start giving members access.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We haven't had any updates to scores on the EG Platform for a couple of weeks despite them being processed on Club V1.

There must be a synchronisation before they start giving members access.
		
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It is worrying me. Do I need to enter the scores myself as handicap secretary. Will they suddenly just appear? Is it England Golf's problem? Is it Club V1? Could this not have been resolved months and months ago, so a few weeks before launch we pretty much have a well running system, one in which club officials and regular golfers have had a chance to become familiar with, so that when 2nd November comes everybody is fully ready to use it without any confusion and last minute handicap adjustments to account for silly initial Handicap Indexes. Another example of this concern:

We have one member who has submitted plenty of scores, CONGU handicap = 28.6. WHS Index = 25.5. Course Handicap (Yellows = 29, Whites = 30). So, no real concerns there.

A new member, just got his handicap. CONGU handicap = 28.0, WHS Index = 28.0 (as it hasn't used his 3 submitted cards, just matched his CONGU handicap). Course Handicap (Yellows = 32, Whites = 33)

So, the new member has a lower handicap than the guy who has been a member for years currently, but as soon as WHS Index comes into play, he gets 3 extra shots compared to the longer member. Clearly, as handicap secretary, I will have to do something about this, because I can just imagine the frustration, and perhaps fury of golfers playing in the winter league, when the new guy suddenly gets 4 extra shots compared to what he gets today, whilst all the regular members get no such benefit.

I wonder how many clubs are prepared for this, and realise that they really need to adjust the Index values of any new member at the very least. I wonder who is responsible as to why their 1st 3 cards for handicap are not included in the WHS platform? Is it England Golf, or the ISVs? Have England Golf or the ISV's issued any guidance or warnings to clubs, to focus the mind of handicap secs as to where adjustments are most likely required?


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			We haven't had any updates to scores on the EG Platform for a couple of weeks despite them being processed on Club V1.

There must be a synchronisation before they start giving members access.
		
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Email from EG

_The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch._


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Apologies, but have you seen the WHS Platform yet??? As others have said, there is no evidence as all yet that CSS has been used. I will give you an example.

We had a competition on 29/8/20 in which the CSS was 71 (SSS=69). The winner shot gross 88 (no nett double bogey adjustments required). The Slope of the Course is 133

So, if CSS was used, his Score differential would be = (88-71) x 113/133 = 14.4

If Course Rating was used (which is 69.4), his Score differential would be = (88-69.4) x 113/133 = 15.8

The WHS Platform clearly shows his "Score Diff" for that round as 15.8, which means that CSS has not been used at all.
		
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What is showing *on the WHS* as his HI for the round *immediately before* that round?
What is showing *on the CDH* as his Handicap for the round *immediately before* that round?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What is showing *on the WHS* as his HI for the round *immediately before* that round?
What is showing *on the CDH* as his Handicap for the round *immediately before* that round?
		
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Firstly, I'm not sure how to get a Playing History from the CDH Database. I can find the player, but all it gives me is his name, CDH, Golf Club, Handicap and when it was last updated. No Scoring History.

On Club V1, after player shot  a gross 88 and CSS was 71 (SSS=69), and with a handicap of 18 at the time, his Nett Deff is shown as -1. Handicap went from 17.9 to 17.6

On WHS Platform, his Index before round was 15.8, and after was 15.3 (although this is irrelevant to the issue of CSS being used or not)

The Score Differential on the WHS Platform is clearly based on a calculation using the Course Rating, as per previous post. I have added up his 8 best Score Differentials on the Platform, divided by 8, and I get his Handicap Index, that ties up with his Index on the Platform. So, all the numbers exactly match up if Course Rating is used. There is no other adjustment to account for the fact CSS may have been different to SSS


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Email from EG

_The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch._

Click to expand...

OK I guess but if EG are not clear when they send their email out linking to the site it's going to be confusing


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## louise_a (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I posted in another thread

*EG.* It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS).
		
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I now have access to our indexes, I have been working mine out using handicap plus nett differential and I was expecting around 10.0  I have got 11.5, so I am pretty sure CSS was not taken into account


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

louise_a said:



			I now have access to our indexes, I have been working mine out using handicap plus nett differential and I was expecting around 10.0  I have got 11.5, so I am pretty sure CSS was not taken into account
		
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Which line on the display did you take HI from?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2020)

They have until 10th Nov to sort out for the 18 hole comp otherwise I'll wait

Way to over complicate a nice simple game


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which line on the display did you take HI from?
		
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As I said on another post, I can assure you CSS is NOT being used on the WHS Platform. Perhaps that will ge updated, perhaps not. I have no idea what is final and what is not


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Email from EG

_The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch._

Click to expand...

So, that means we do not need to add in the missing scores from the last week?

What about missing scores from golfers who recently handed 3 cards in for handicap?


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			As I said on another post, I can assure you CSS is NOT being used on the WHS Platform. Perhaps that will ge updated, perhaps not. I have no idea what is final and what is not
		
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Can you provide a screen shot (or extract) of a few consecutive rows of scores where the CSS is not = to SSS/CR?


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## louise_a (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which line on the display did you take HI from?
		
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I have requested my handicap certificate and in bold letters it says 
*WHS® Handicap Index: 11.5*


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## rosecott (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			How do you mean (if referred to me)?

My comments were related to what was present on WHS Portal today (and still is after checking now). I think it is going to be vital for handicap secretaries to check new member handicaps. We have a few in our winter league. One chap has a Congu Handicap of 28.0 (his initial handicap was 30, but has since entered 1 score, and it went to 28.0). Therefore, his Index is 28.0. Therefore, come 2nd November, his Course Handicap off yellows will be 32, whereas most other golfers have an Index lower than their CONGU handicap, but course handicap is about the same. It also seems that scores entered in the last week or 2 are missing from the WHS portal, but I don't want to enter them manually inc ase they magically appear and are then duplicated.

Questions:


The ladies competition that happened last week is not included in any of the players WHS scoring history (it was a qualifier), nor any recent supplementary cards. Do we think these will appear at any point?
If we have qualifiers between now and November, will they appear on WHS Portal handicap calculations?
If golfers hand in supplementary cards in next few weeks, should these be entered on ISV (Club V! in my case) as normal, or directly in WHS Portal?
After 2nd November, can we enter supplementary cards in Club V1, or must these be done in WHS Portal (i.e. is Club V1 only for comps only)?


Click to expand...

Have you not lost sight of the fact that these are only meant to be indicative? I didn't expect them to be bang up to date with yesterday's competitions included. It doesn't go live until 2nd November.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Can you provide a screen shot (or extract) of a few consecutive rows of scores where the CSS is not = to SSS/CR?
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Have you not lost sight of the fact that these are only meant to be indicative? I didn't expect them to be bang up to date with yesterday's competitions included. It doesn't go live until 2nd November.
		
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I asked England Golf directly about the missing scores from new members (when their Index was shown as Pending). The responded directly saying I either need to contact the ISV to return the missing scores, add them myself or get the players to submit 3 further cards. 

A day later, these players suddenly had a handicap. The scores were still not present, but their handicap Index was simply set as their CONGU handicap (which will generally be too high, at my club anyway)

So, should we just take a look, and ignore the numbers in it? Did England Golf tell us what other updates they will make before 2nd November. Other handicap secretaries have already stated on here they are now desperately manually entering missing scores, before all golfers get to see it on Monday. However, will these missing scores simply return?

As a handicap secretary, I have no idea what the heck I am meant to be doing with this data, or should I just sit back and leave it be? As it stands, new golfers are suddenly going to get a load of extra shots come 2nd november (especially high handicappers) compared to regulars, and it will be noticeable in our Winter Leagues. I was hoping things could be refined before club golfers get to see it


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## Mozza14 (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2
		
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I have access to my WHS record and a few others.  CSS has not been used in any of the calculations.

For my record, if CSS had been used the Handicap Index would have been 0.2 lower.

The adjusted gross score and *Course Rating* used.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2
		
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Thanks
What is showing on CDH for the Gross, stableford adj, SSS and CSS?
Did you use the HI from 15/08/20?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks
What is showing on CDH for the Gross, stableford adj, SSS and CSS?
Did you use the HI from 15/08/20?
		
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Are we on the same hymn sheet, I assume we are talking about whether CSS has been taken into account in the initial Index calculations? My screenshot shows it has not.

The Gross was 88, gross adjusted was 88, CSS 71, SSS 69 (as I have said)

I'd have thought, had the WHS taken into account CSS, it would have set PCC to +2. It hasn't, it is simply using the CR of 69.4.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hold fire Nick. Despite WHS replying yesterday saying that either the ISV guys need to sort this, or club committees need to manually put these scores in, I have just checked today and the new golfers whose handicap was shown as Pending, now have a handicap.

p
		
Click to expand...

Yep...all of our pendings have changed so they now have a handicap.

It appears that in many cases a player has been given an index the same as his CONGU handicap.

In some cases a player who only has two scores has an index based on the best score minus 2...or sometimes minus 1. There is no logic to how some of the indexes have been allocated.

Also....we have noticed that if you try to enter a score of more than double bogey on  hole (assuming the player does not get a shot) the system generates an error message when you try to submit the score and prevents you from doing so. It seems that it wants you to enter the "nett double" bogey score. This is daft...it should allow you to enter the gross score and work out any adjustments for itself.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Yep...all of our pendings have changed so they now have a handicap.

It appears that in many cases a player has been given an index the same as his CONGU handicap.

In some cases a player who only has two scores has an index based on the best score minus 2...or sometimes minus 1. There is no logic to how some of the indexes have been allocated.

Also....we have noticed that if you try to enter a score of more than double bogey on  hole (assuming the player does not get a shot) the system generates an error message when you try to submit the score and prevents you from doing so. It seems that it wants you to enter the "nett double" bogey score. This is daft...it should allow you to enter the gross score and work out any adjustments for itself.
		
Click to expand...

I'm scared to go near it, as I have no idea how broke it is, or how finished it is. Could spend hours on it, then suddenly it all changes again?

Simply giving new golfers an Index equal to Congu handicap is worrying, given virtually all golfers who have submitted lots of scores have a handicap index lower than Congu. It means we have ridiculous situations where an experienced golfer with Congu of 28.6 gets a course handicap of 29 off yellows, whereas a new golfer with Congu 28 gets a course handicap of 32. These will stick out like sore thumbs in our winter league. I could try and change them, but someone says these are only indicative and may well change.


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## petema99 (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm scared to go near it, as I have no idea how broke it is, or how finished it is. Could spend hours on it, then suddenly it all changes again?

Simply giving new golfers an Index equal to Congu handicap is worrying, given virtually all golfers who have submitted lots of scores have a handicap index lower than Congu. It means we have ridiculous situations where an experienced golfer with Congu of 28.6 gets a course handicap of 29 off yellows, whereas a new golfer with Congu 28 gets a course handicap of 32. These will stick out like sore thumbs in our winter league. I could try and change them, but someone says these are only indicative and may well change.
		
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In a different thread, I asked whether there were any max scores for holes for the initial cards and apparently it is +5 per hole (and not double par as per Congu rules). Therefore, if you take the three intial cards, it is quite likely that you will get a handicap higher than the one calculated for Congu, e.g. for a 28 handicap if they get a few 10s on par 4s they will only be cut down to 9 under WHS, but would have been cut down to 8 under Congu. Same applies if someone gets e.g. an 8 on a par three.

I wonder if using the 3 cards and calculating a new WHS handicap, you could get a higher index than the Congu handicap, so this is what it has been capped at?


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## nickjdavis (Oct 15, 2020)

The system needs a facility where you can log on to your ISV software, select a player and push all his historical scoring to the WHS platform, including all his initial cards that he originally submitted for handicap. Why they never took account of the initial cards I just do not know. Maybe it is fixable....but I doubt it.

Likewise we are now treating the WHS like a sleeping snake, unwilling to poke it lest we get bitten.

However, with the general golfing populace allegedly being let loose on the system next week I find it worrying that the next "update" of score data will be done on November 1st. We will just be firefighting questions for two weeks.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The system needs a facility where you can log on to your ISV software, select a player and push all his historical scoring to the WHS platform, including all his initial cards that he originally submitted for handicap. Why they never took account of the initial cards I just do not know. Maybe it is fixable....but I doubt it.

Likewise we are now treating the WHS like a sleeping snake, unwilling to poke it lest we get bitten.

However, with the general golfing populace allegedly being let loose on the system next week I find it worrying that the next "update" of score data will be done on November 1st. We will just be firefighting questions for two weeks.
		
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Indeed. And, if we can't go near it until it gets updated on November 1st, we'll be working like mad from November 2nd to fix any dodgy handicaps before players use them in competition. 

I have already had 1 guy on Committee  who happened to know a few of these initial index values, and was carefully figuring out how everyones handicap will change in Winter League in his group come November. And, he doesn't have access to WHS Platform, it was just based on me giving some initial index values. So, I dread to think what happens Monday when and member can sit in front of computer and look through it at their will. A few questions will be raised.

I still have players registering for supplementary scores, so I'll continue entering them in Club V1, and hopefully their 1st November update will at least capture them


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2020)

My handicap sec was explaining we will get an app were we can register any card from any course providing  you say before hand and play to the rules of golf

That does sound good


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, that means we do not need to add in the missing scores from the last week?

What about missing scores from golfers who recently handed 3 cards in for handicap?
		
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I think you are correct.

We have had a note from ClubSystems to say they have not sent any information to the EG Platform yet but would do so on the 1st November as part of the migration. This will include all scores apparently (fingers crossed).

Looks like we are going to be busy for a few days in early November - just as well there aren't going to be any firework displays!

If there is a problem with the migration or we can't review the handicaps in time for the club comps we are going to use the old handicaps for the competitions only and then process the score for handicap when we are happy with the data. Not ideal but fairer I believe.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Are we on the same hymn sheet, I assume we are talking about whether CSS has been taken into account in the initial Index calculations? My screenshot shows it has not.

The Gross was 88, gross adjusted was 88, CSS 71, SSS 69 (as I have said)

I'd have thought, had the WHS taken into account CSS, it would have set PCC to +2. It hasn't, it is simply using the CR of 69.4.
		
Click to expand...

But what HI did you use to determine the CH when you did your calculation?


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## Mozza14 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But what HI did you use to determine the CH when you did your calculation?
		
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Unless I have completely lost the plot, the CH (Course Handicap) has absolutely no bearing on establishing a player's Handicap Index. That is during the transition or when the system goes live.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Unless I have completely lost the plot, the CH (Course Handicap) has absolutely no bearing on establishing a player's Handicap Index. That is during the transition or when the system goes live.
		
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Yes. Belay that


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## Mozza14 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. Belay that
		
Click to expand...

I don't know what that means sorry.

Perhaps help me/us by explaining how the Course Handicap fits into SWANGO's  explanation that CSS has not featured in the WHS output so far.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 15, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I think you are correct.

We have had a note from ClubSystems to say they have not sent any information to the EG Platform yet but would do so on the 1st November as part of the migration. This will include all scores apparently (fingers crossed).

Looks like we are going to be busy for a few days in early November - just as well there aren't going to be any firework displays!

If there is a problem with the migration or we can't review the handicaps in time for the club comps we are going to use the old handicaps for the competitions only and then process the score for handicap when we are happy with the data. Not ideal but fairer I believe.
		
Click to expand...

We have written to HandicapMaster so see if they will confirm that scores for initial handicap will be pushed to the WHS or just the recent scores in October.

Luckily we postponed all Comps that were due to be played in the first week of November anticipating such a clusterf..k.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I don't know what that means sorry.
		
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Hold it, go no further.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Hold it, go no further.
		
Click to expand...

Could you answer the second part then please?  

Perhaps help me/us by explaining how the Course Handicap fits into SWANGO's explanation that CSS has not featured in the WHS output so far.


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Could you answer the second part then please? 

Perhaps help me/us by explaining how the Course Handicap fits into SWANGO's explanation that CSS has not featured in the WHS output so far.
		
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It doesn't. I was misleading my self which is why I said 'take it no further'


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## Golfnut1957 (Oct 16, 2020)

While my home club will publish WHS handicaps on the 2nd Nov it has been decided that the two winter comps, a league and a knockout which are both matchplay, will be played in their entirety using our "old" current handicaps. Other than friendly golf and supplementary cards we won't start using the WHS until spring.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 16, 2020)

Golfnut1957 said:



			While my home club will publish WHS handicaps on the 2nd Nov it has been decided that the two winter comps, a league and a knockout which are both matchplay, will be played in their entirety using our "old" current handicaps. Other than friendly golf and supplementary cards we won't start using the WHS until spring.
		
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No "qualifying" comps over winter then?

Probably not a bad decision in this case. For a start, no idea when the ISV software will be properly up and running to deal with WHS handicaps. I'm hoping they are ready to make the switch immediately on 2nd November. Also, I suspect it will take clubs a bit of time to go through the system and sort out any odd handicap index values, especially for new members who have only just got their handicap pre 2nd November. So, not using WHS until Committee are happy that handicaps are relatively fair is a reasonable stance


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2020)

We are going to 'give it a go' and run our Winter Order of Merit under WHS just to get to grips with it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Hold fire Nick. Despite WHS replying yesterday saying that either the ISV guys need to sort this, or club committees need to manually put these scores in, I have just checked today and the new golfers whose handicap was shown as Pending, now have a handicap.

My only concern now is, one of the ladies got her first handicap of 45 a few weeks ago. She played in a competition last week, her 1st round with a handicap, and got a chop to 40.9. She also handed in a supplementary card yesterday, no change to handicap. However, her WHS Index is 45.0 (giving her a course handicap of 56.

So, I'm a bit concerned that WHS is omitting a load of rounds played in the last month or so for some players??? Also, if it is simply giving new members a Handicap Index that matches their CONGU handicap, then they will suddenly get more shots as a course handicap, especially high handicappers (given that in most cases, everyone's handicap index is lower than their current CONGU handicap
		
Click to expand...

I had an email from EG yesterday but couldn't update the forum put they did suffer a software glitch that resulted in a lot of this pending issues and missing members, I'm slowly going through ours but I can see no pending issues now and members who were missing are appearing.

Id appreciate it if the those who have spotted where players have had three cards for handicap not being included could update the thread if this has also been resolved before I waste another day of my life as Im supposed to be taking HID to Cornwall for a few days.


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## Old Skier (Oct 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed. And, if we can't go near it until it gets updated on November 1st, we'll be working like mad from November 2nd to fix any dodgy handicaps before players use them in competition.

I have already had 1 guy on Committee  who happened to know a few of these initial index values, and was carefully figuring out how everyones handicap will change in Winter League in his group come November. And, he doesn't have access to WHS Platform, it was just based on me giving some initial index values. So, I dread to think what happens Monday when and member can sit in front of computer and look through it at their will. A few questions will be raised.

I still have players registering for supplementary scores, so I'll continue entering them in Club V1, and hopefully their 1st November update will at least capture them
		
Click to expand...

I'm now going to leave it all well alone, wait for the member to see what they have then send out an all stations email informing them to wait until 2 Nov before they start querying anything (more in hope).

I'm also waiting from a response from the head honchos at EG at our county and EG rep suggested at our AGM that issues and thoughts on how this was handled should be passed directly to HQ.  I think they feel the same pain


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## Swango1980 (Oct 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I had an email from EG yesterday but couldn't update the forum put they did suffer a software glitch that resulted in a lot of this pending issues and missing members, I'm slowly going through ours but I can see no pending issues now and members who were missing are appearing.

Id appreciate it if the those who have spotted where players have had three cards for handicap not being included could update the thread if this has also been resolved before I waste another day of my life as Im supposed to be taking HID to Cornwall for a few days.
		
Click to expand...

For players who have handed their 3 cards in for initial handicap, but no cards thereafter, their Handicap Index has been set simply to their CONGU Handicap (in most cases this will be too high, as most golfers have an index lower than their CONGU handicap, and then their Course handicap is similar to CONGU). So, ideally, WHS could bring those 3 scores in, and work out their initial Index properly. However, not sure if that is possible, because on Club V1 I cannot even view those 3 scores, it simply gives the date the rounds were played. So, perhaps there is no way of transferring them to WHS. In which case, it may be up to handicap secs to manually enter them, unless WHS come up with a different way of setting the 1st index other than equalling CONGU handicap.

However, yesterday, the above was also true if these new members had since played up to 2 rounds from their new handicap. Because, the system only saw 2 rounds, and therefore just matched their CONGU handicap. However, I notice today this has changed, with one member who had an initial handicap of 30, and put in one supplementary score late last month to get it to 28. Yesterday, his index was 28.0 (i.e. his CONGU handicap, as he only had 1 recognised score). Today his Index 20.8. So, the platform has now taken that 1 score into account, where his scoring history says he had an Index of 28.0 for first round, and after that round it went to 20.8.

I am not going to touch anything until I know there are no longer changes behind the scenes


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## Old Skier (Oct 16, 2020)

Our Admin just informed me that Club Systems final upload will be 1 Nov to hopefully catch those comps and cards entered this month so she is sending out to all members that this is happening and their index is subject to change.

Played golf with the Capt of Sidmouth yesterday and there course is rated at 114, I really think that the course ratter's who actually come form the county used more than just a guide book to come up with their decisions.


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## OLgolfer (Oct 16, 2020)

I've got a society day on 5th Nov, what are the chances that I'll be able to pre-register and submit my card for handicap? Will the infrastructure be up and running?


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2020)

OLgolfer said:



			I've got a society day on 5th Nov, what are the chances that I'll be able to pre-register and submit my card for handicap? Will the infrastructure be up and running?
		
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It will depend on where you are playing


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## nickjdavis (Oct 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our Admin just informed me that Club Systems final upload will be 1 Nov to hopefully catch those comps and cards entered this month so she is sending out to all members that this is happening and their index is subject to change.

Played golf with the Capt of Sidmouth yesterday and there course is rated at 114, I really think that the course ratter's who actually come form the county used more than just a guide book to come up with their decisions.
		
Click to expand...

HandicapMaster informed me this morning that the WHS would take a final dump from the current CDH on Nov 1st and then the HM software would be able to push future scores to the WHS from 2nd Nov. Unfortunately they didnt clarify whether historical first cards for handicaps would be pushed as well as "new" scores.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I had an email from EG yesterday but couldn't update the forum put they did suffer a software glitch that resulted in a lot of this pending issues and missing members, I'm slowly going through ours but I can see no pending issues now and members who were missing are appearing.

Id appreciate it if the those who have spotted where players have had three cards for handicap not being included could update the thread if this has also been resolved before I waste another day of my life as Im supposed to be taking HID to Cornwall for a few days.
		
Click to expand...

Nope...no change...the 3 cards for initial handicap are not shown on the WHS platform.

It appears that players with 0 or 1 score in the WHS have been allocated an index equivalent to their CONGU handicap. Some players with 2 scores in their WHS record have been allocated an index based on their best score minus 2 whereas some have been allocated an index equivalent to their Congu handicap.

Go figure the logic.


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## Imurg (Oct 16, 2020)

Let me get my head around this...
You de-slope scores, look at the differential which may or may not have used CSS, add the best 8 together, re-slope them somewhere, find the average, perform another calculation involving slope and course rating or someone's inside leg measurement to come up with a number......and then you use 95% of that number when you play..
Simples........Why couldn't they have thought up something more complicated..?
Glad the computer's going to do it.......until it breaks.......


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Let me get my head around this...
You de-slope scores, look at the differential which may or may not have used CSS, add the best 8 together, re-slope them somewhere, find the average, perform another calculation involving slope and course rating or someone's inside leg measurement to come up with a number......and then you use 95% of that number when you play..
Simples........Why couldn't they have thought up something more complicated..?
Glad the computer's going to do it.......until it breaks.......
		
Click to expand...

Csll me cynical but somebody will be making a lot of money out of this..... and even more when they have to fix it 🤣🤔


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## HampshireHog (Oct 16, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Csll me cynical but somebody will be making a lot of money out of this..... and even more when they have to fix it 🤣🤔
		
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Hope they’re using an xlsx file format 😉


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## Green Man (Oct 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Let me get my head around this...
You de-slope scores, look at the differential which may or may not have used CSS, add the best 8 together, re-slope them somewhere, find the average, perform another calculation involving slope and course rating or someone's inside leg measurement to come up with a number......and then you use 95% of that number when you play..
Simples........Why couldn't they have thought up something more complicated..?
Glad the computer's going to do it.......until it breaks.......
		
Click to expand...


Or you can just wait until it goes live and see what it says your HI is. Quite easy I think.


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## badgergm (Oct 16, 2020)

It appears that an initial migration has been done with Little or no information on the methodology, and no instructions on what to do or not do with the information. Very poor.


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## Imurg (Oct 16, 2020)

Green Man said:



			Or you can just wait until it goes live and see what it says your HI is. Quite easy I think.
		
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Exactly what I'll be doing.
Going to make life interesting if and when the computer systems fail.
Or when people get the 95% calculation wrong..or forget to apply it.


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## badgergm (Oct 16, 2020)

And you have no means of checking whether it’s correct or not because they’re not even publishing the rules they’re using for transition?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 16, 2020)

Have they opened the website up yet ?


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## 2blue (Oct 16, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Have they opened the website up yet ?
		
Click to expand...

It's available to those who have the log-on details.....  Match & H/cap Secs.
I'm down a shot to 10.3 which is more than anticipated, with my 8th good score as number 18 of the 20.
Looking forward to the fairness that this going to bring when I play on other N Leeds courses that are all rated higher.


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

so if your HI is "down" to 10.3, how many shots will you get on your home course in a medal?


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## Old Skier (Oct 16, 2020)

2blue said:



			It's available to those who have the log-on details.....  Match & H/cap Secs.
I'm down a shot to 10.3 which is more than anticipated, with my 8th good score as number 18 of the 20.
Looking forward to the fairness that this going to bring when I play on other N Leeds courses that are all rated higher.
		
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Surley your only down a shot on a 113 slope what are you off your courses slope or is that going by your course slope.


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## 2blue (Oct 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			so if your HI is "down" to 10.3, how many shots will you get on your home course in a medal?
		
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@95% I'd have a CH of 11 off both our White & Yellow tees 10.45 off the latter


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## 2blue (Oct 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Surley your only down a shot on a 113 slope what are you off your courses slope or is that going by your course slope.
		
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Ah, yes.....  be back to 11 then. Got it!! 🤓


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## jim8flog (Oct 16, 2020)

OLgolfer said:



			I've got a society day on 5th Nov, what are the chances that I'll be able to pre-register and submit my card for handicap? Will the infrastructure be up and running?
		
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 You will be ok the fireworks normally start in the evening.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 16, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Nope...no change...the 3 cards for initial handicap are not shown on the WHS platform.

It appears that players with 0 or 1 score in the WHS have been allocated an index equivalent to their CONGU handicap. Some players with 2 scores in their WHS record have been allocated an index based on their best score minus 2 whereas some have been allocated an index equivalent to their Congu handicap.

Go figure the logic.
		
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As handicap sec, I am now going to refrain from touching the WHS Platform at all until after 1st November (unless we are told for certain that new players 1st 3 scores will definitely not be added, in which case I may start adding them)

I understand all golfers get access on Monday. AQlthough, I'm not sure if England Golf sends out a big email to them, or it is up to clubs to pass on this message to their members.

Either way, on Sunday night, or Monday, I'll send out an e-mail to all members to tell them these are not final, October scores will be missing until 1st November, and new players may find they get a very different value once I review them early November (I better start with the ones playing in the Winter League)


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## nickjdavis (Oct 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			As handicap sec, I am now going to refrain from touching the WHS Platform at all until after 1st November (unless we are told for certain that new players 1st 3 scores will definitely not be added, in which case I may start adding them)

I understand all golfers get access on Monday. *Although, I'm not sure if England Golf sends out a big email to them*, or it is up to clubs to pass on this message to their members.

Either way, on Sunday night, or Monday, I'll send out an e-mail to all members to tell them these are not final, October scores will be missing until 1st November, and new players may find they get a very different value once I review them early November (I better start with the ones playing in the Winter League)
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought that the WHS, now that it allegedly knows everyone email addresses, would be able to automatically send out an invite to all golfers to log on and register.

We will see on Monday morning because mine is the only email address in the WHS system!!! We have collected ours, or as many as we can, we just haven't uploaded them to the WHS because our ISV only released a software update, allowing us to do this, yesterday.


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## Old Skier (Oct 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No, looked at the chart today, I will play off +2 😡

I appreciate some people will think that's great, but personally it's just plain daft. I'm nowhere near that, never have been never will be, and frankly as a realist it's embarrassing.

Basically will be paying to enter comps with absolutely zero chance of competing until this mess sorts itself.
		
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Interesting, what’s your course slope


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## nickjdavis (Oct 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			0.3
I appreciate that the conversion only looks at numbers, but it's ridiculous..
1 is fair, 2 is great, 0 is a challenge but fun.
+2 is rubbish. After playing fairly all these years, suddenly I'm now excluded from competing. Absolute garbage ☹️
		
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Have you seen the underlying scored that the WHS  has used to get to the 2 index?


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## 94tegsi (Oct 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No, looked at the chart today, I will play off +2 😡

I appreciate some people will think that's great, but personally it's just plain daft. I'm nowhere near that, never have been never will be, and frankly as a realist it's embarrassing.

Basically will be paying to enter comps with absolutely zero chance of competing until this mess sorts itself.
		
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+2 Handicap index or course index? Doesn’t sound too ridiculous if all of your counting scores are par or better?


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## 94tegsi (Oct 16, 2020)

You sure that’s the right way round on a course with 128 slope mate? What’s the WHS course rating?

guess we all have pre conceived ideas on the skill of a certain handicap based on what we’ve been used to and that internal barometer is going to have to change.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 17, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Sorry I don't really understand the question? 🙂
		
Click to expand...

I was wondering if you have actually seen the list of scores that the WHS has used to calculate your index that you say will mean you playing off +2?

(or have you calculated this based on your CONGU scores?)

For you to have been given an index of that nature you must have a well established very good scoring record (in which case the index is probably justified ) or you have only a very small number of scores that have been "victimised" by one of the calculations that uses the best minus one or 2 strokes.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Yes and yes, CR is 71.5 versus par 71, CSS has been 72 all the way.
I'm a bit conscious of not hijacking the thread so I think I should leave it there 🙂
		
Click to expand...

Here is a proper thread jack ... is that a Swedish tram?


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## Ethan (Oct 17, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Index +1.4, Course Hcp +2.

I do understand that people will look at the scores and say "well that's what you should be off".  Yes I get that.

But I've been playing 40 years, I'm 52, I'm not and never have been a plus handicap. I don't want a stupid vanity handicap. This year I've scored everything between 69 and 81, but the new system just takes my best 6 scores.

I've played with a few forum members and I'm guessing they would say that, yeah I can play OK to Cat 1, but no way am I a plus 2, and absolutely I agree.

Obviously in real life I just go out and play, no massive deal, but for forum chat I think it's ludicrous.
		
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Part of that is the way that multipliers work on handicaps. For those of use whose handicaps deduct shots rather than add them, assuming slope is > 113, the course handicap will always be higher, that is to the right of the handicap index on a number line. But for plus people, the course handicap is lower, that is to the left on a number line because they both appear just to multiply without taking the +/- into account. This makes no mathematical sense. It clearly happens because the system is zeroed on scratch, but it means that the difference between a +0.4 player and a 0.4 player becomes 2 under WHS since they will go to playing handicaps of +1 and 1 respectively, when under current arrangements it is 0, as both play off scratch.


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## jim8flog (Oct 17, 2020)

What I am going to find interesting is that I am registered with EG with one email address and I have another for the golf club.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 18, 2020)

I just so happened to check the Index for one member at our club. When I looked at his scoring history, he had a total of 18 scores, the first being early 2019. However, the WHS Portal had completely ignored any qualifiers he played in 2018, of which he played 8 (having checked Club V1). Having randomly checked a few other members, 2018 scores seem to be included as expected.

Slightly worrying that, randomly, this one particular member just has a whole years worth of scores that have not come through into WHS. I have no idea how many others this may effect. I'm guessing, rather than go through every member individually, I may need to ask golfers, when they get access, to highlight to me if they think any of their scores are missing. I might then be able to at least take a not of those missing scores from Club V1 before 2nd November, and then manually add them if they haven't returned during the review thereafter.


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## jim8flog (Oct 18, 2020)

One of the things I have done is to print out my handicap record just in case it disappears come 2/11.

One of the things that has changed during 2020 is the name of our courses

We have gone  
Old Short 
Old Short 2020
Old  
O/C Covid 19 Temp Course
Old 2020

Interesting to see if it makes any difference.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 18, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I just so happened to check the Index for one member at our club. When I looked at his scoring history, he had a total of 18 scores, the first being early 2019. However, the WHS Portal had completely ignored any qualifiers he played in 2018, of which he played 8 (having checked Club V1). Having randomly checked a few other members, 2018 scores seem to be included as expected.

Slightly worrying that, randomly, this one particular member just has a whole years worth of scores that have not come through into WHS. I have no idea how many others this may effect. I'm guessing, rather than go through every member individually, I may need to ask golfers, when they get access, to highlight to me if they think any of their scores are missing. I might then be able to at least take a not of those missing scores from Club V1 before 2nd November, and then manually add them if they haven't returned during the review thereafter.
		
Click to expand...

Be aware though that of a problem I have found when trying to enter the original three cards for handicap for players who have recently joined the club in the last six months....when their handicap was "pending" in the WHS the system would accept the historical gross scores they were scored, even if there were 10's, 11's ,12's on the cards...they would go through no problem. The moment (Thursday) the WHS changed everyone's handicap indexes from "pending" to "the equivalent to their current congu handicap", when trying to enter historical scores the system rejected any score for a hole where the player scored worse than nett double bogey according to their current "now non-pending" WHS index....it forced you to enter a score equivalent to nett double bogey for their current handicap before allowing you to submit it.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 18, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Be aware though that of a problem I have found when trying to enter the original three cards for handicap for players who have recently joined the club in the last six months....when their handicap was "pending" in the WHS the system would accept the historical gross scores they were scored, even if there were 10's, 11's ,12's on the cards...they would go through no problem. The moment (Thursday) the WHS changed everyone's handicap indexes from "pending" to "the equivalent to their current congu handicap", when trying to enter historical scores the system rejected any score for a hole where the player scored worse than nett double bogey according to their current "now non-pending" WHS index....it forced you to enter a score equivalent to nett double bogey for their current handicap before allowing you to submit it.
		
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Have you informed WHS? They are good at getting back, they replied to me 3 times last week when I reported issues.

Once it goes live, could you enter the 3 scores on your ISV as supplementary scores, and then they will get sent to WHS that way in the correct format?


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## nickjdavis (Oct 18, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Have you informed WHS? They are good at getting back, they replied to me 3 times last week when I reported issues.

Once it goes live, could you enter the 3 scores on your ISV as supplementary scores, and then they will get sent to WHS that way in the correct format?
		
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Yes I have...late on Friday evening when I finally figured out what was going on for certain!! Entering them as retrospective supplementaries might be an option. Will wait for feedback from the WHS....ideally, when they do their final DB update on 1st November they will have figured out how to extract the initial cards for handicap as well as all of the "normal" scores from the CDH system.

Out of interest....what contact email address did you use? I cant find any "contact" details on the WHS portal itself by which you can report issues!!!


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## fragar7 (Oct 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			We received the under mentioned yesterday which seems a bit late in the day and thought they probably had this info. as I thought I was registered with EG.

Any comments would be appreciated.


“As a valued member of this golf club, your privacy is important to us, and we want to ensure that your data is used only in the ways you authorise. As a club we are affiliated to England Golf and they have requested the following data to be sent to them, from our records, together with scores, in order for them to process a WHS handicap index. Please choose below whether you are happy to send this data.

Date of Birth
Email Address
Gender”
		
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My club opted all members in to ensure that every player received a Handicap Index. This is the standard email sent to all our members, the only thing is if you opt out you won't get a Handicap Index allegedly


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## Bdill93 (Oct 19, 2020)

fragar7 said:



			My club opted all members in to ensure that every player received a Handicap Index. This is the standard email sent to all our members, the only thing is if you opt out you won't get a Handicap Index allegedly
		
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Our club sent the same email!


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## Old Skier (Oct 19, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Yes I have...late on Friday evening when I finally figured out what was going on for certain!! Entering them as retrospective supplementaries might be an option. Will wait for feedback from the WHS....ideally, when they do their final DB update on 1st November they will have figured out how to extract the initial cards for handicap as well as all of the "normal" scores from the CDH system.

Out of interest....what contact email address did you use? I cant find any "contact" details on the WHS portal itself by which you can report issues!!!
		
Click to expand...

info@englandgolf.org


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2020)

Anybody got any feedback yet whether all members have yet received access to WHS Platform yet?

I gave members a heads up e-mail last night (to try and ward off a flurry of questions when they suddenly get access without any warning, and then have a field day trying to interrogate it), and warned them handicaps will simply be indicative at this stage, due to a few issues that are yet to be accounted for. However, I have no idea how this access will be given to them, or when.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Anybody got any feedback yet whether all members have yet received access to WHS Platform yet?

I gave members a heads up e-mail last night (to try and ward off a flurry of questions when they suddenly get access without any warning, and then have a field day trying to interrogate it), and warned them handicaps will simply be indicative at this stage, due to a few issues that are yet to be accounted for. However, I have no idea how this access will be given to them, or when.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing.


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## patricks148 (Oct 19, 2020)

Scottish Golf are in silent running on this not a peep out of them


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Anybody got any feedback yet whether all members have yet received access to WHS Platform yet?

I gave members a heads up e-mail last night (to try and ward off a flurry of questions when they suddenly get access without any warning, and then have a field day trying to interrogate it), and warned them handicaps will simply be indicative at this stage, due to a few issues that are yet to be accounted for. However, I have no idea how this access will be given to them, or when.
		
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How can they send anything - they haven't got the data to calculate the HI or the email addresses on their platform to send a note.

Put aside the questions raised on the basis for the calculations.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 19, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			How can they send anything - they haven't got the data to calculate the HI or the email addresses on their platform to send a note.

Put aside the questions raised on the basis for the calculations.
		
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What do you mean. I have handicap index values for every member at my club, and England Golf asked us to ensure every member had an e-mail address within the club ISV, exactly so they had this info. It meant the owner had to get his staff to start chasing members and filling in the info where missing.

So, I'm unsure what you mean by "they haven't got the data to calculate the HI or the email addresses"


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## Old Skier (Oct 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Anybody got any feedback yet whether all members have yet received access to WHS Platform yet?

I gave members a heads up e-mail last night (to try and ward off a flurry of questions when they suddenly get access without any warning, and then have a field day trying to interrogate it), and warned them handicaps will simply be indicative at this stage, due to a few issues that are yet to be accounted for. However, I have no idea how this access will be given to them, or when.
		
Click to expand...

Waiting for my Whatsapp group to respond


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## Old Skier (Oct 19, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			How can they send anything - they haven't got the data to calculate the HI or the email addresses on their platform to send a note.

Put aside the questions raised on the basis for the calculations.
		
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Mike admin should have had an accept email through V1 which would, I believe,  realised the relevant info.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 19, 2020)

I just found out I will be a 4 handicap for the first time in my life.   That will teach me to have some good rounds and be consistent in competitions.


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## rulefan (Oct 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



info@englandgolf.org

Click to expand...

Or 
handicaps@englandgolf.org


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2020)

Although it has not been done yet, I've had a response to say CSS will be accounted for, the IT team are working on it. They plan for the values to be included in the adjusted gross score.


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## Old Skier (Oct 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Although it has not been done yet, I've had a response to say CSS will be accounted for, the IT team are working on it. They plan for the values to be included in the adjusted gross score.
		
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One big cluster muck, some people involved in these need a serious look at whether they are up to the job.


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Although it has not been done yet, I've had a response to say CSS will be accounted for, the IT team are working on it. They plan for the values to be included in the adjusted gross score.
		
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I suspect that a contributor to the problem is that the software company's programmer (DotCom from New Zealand) was not that familiar with the concept of the CSS in CONGU. When the spec said take the 'course rating' they didn't realise that the CSS was effectively just that. They would have thought the gross score would have included the equivalent of the PCC. The person who wrote the spec was obviously not a professional either.


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## upsidedown (Oct 21, 2020)

I'm hoping the system they roll out will be close to the NZ one as 13 years ago it was miles ahead of what CONGU/HDID produce now !!

https://www.golf.co.nz/MyGolf/default.aspx?memberid=379092&code=2092254892


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## Old Skier (Oct 21, 2020)

Just received the following answer to email

*Attention Club Managers, Secretaries and Handicap Reps*

Following the WHS platform launch to clubs I wanted to make the following points for clarification based on some recent queries from Devon golf clubs.


Data currently shown in the new WHS platform has been drawn in from the current CDH system. This still needs to be cleansed and this will be achieved when uploads are received of member's data via the ISV’s and clubs direct.
Handicap indexes are calculated from player records up until 5th October. Please note that they do not take account of - CSS variations from SSS, General Play adjustments or Exceptional Scoring reductions.
No scores achieved after 5th October are currently recorded within a players record shown on this platform, however, this information will be transferred on the 1st November. Therefore this data is merely a guide and accuracy will be achieved when the platform becomes live on 2nd November at 12 noon.
The CDH closes at 8 p.m. on 1st November. Please continue to administer scores and close competitions up until then, through the usual channels and ISV competition software. Do not use the WHS platform for any score administration until after 2nd November.
You may update individual records through ISV or direct with WHS platform with regards emails and DOB. My recommendation would be to update the ISV player records and allow ISV’s to upload direct to WHS platform.
Please do not review player handicap records until after the launch of the WHS system on 2nd November. If it is felt a review is required by the handicap committee after this date please follow the usual club review process.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Just received the following answer to email

*Attention Club Managers, Secretaries and Handicap Reps*

Following the WHS platform launch to clubs I wanted to make the following points for clarification based on some recent queries from Devon golf clubs.

Please do not review player handicap records until after the launch of the WHS system on 2nd November. If it is felt a review is required by the handicap committee after this date please follow the usual club review process.
		
Click to expand...

...and if a club has a competition on the 3rd or 4th??....poor handicap secretarys gonna be buried under a raft of "why is my handicap XY or Z" with absolutely no chance to do anything about it.

Should have gone live with the CDH data as of end of September and then allowed new scores to be added during a period of parallel working so golfers could see how the system operated. Madness.


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			We don't tend to do "specs", as such, these days. Agile, don't you know? 

Click to expand...

Many years ago my team installed a new warehousing system. It gave a forklift truck driver a picking list (and delivery note) which identified unique items by their serial number and location code.
One night I was called in by the shift manager. A lorry was waiting to make a delivery early that am. The analyst had failed to tell the programmer how to deal with a situation where an item could not be found in that location (or anywhere else).
The analyst was given a week in the warehouse checking the physical with the paper inventory.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2020)

I posted this on another thread, but thought it would be relevant here:

I have just identified another weird error in the Portal.

We have 2 brothers at our club, same surname, Pete and Phil. Pete plays off 12.6, Phil 6.7 (although they have not submitted cards in a very long time).

However, WHS has given Pete an Index of 6.7 and Phil an Index of 12.6. Basically, it has mixed up their CDH numbers. I have double and triple checked Club V1, which is correct. And double and triple checked the WHS (as I can't quite understand how the mix up could have happened)

So, poor Pete is going to find it much much harder to beat his brother after 2nd November


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## Imurg (Oct 21, 2020)

Please, please....


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## Mozza14 (Oct 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I suspect that a contributor to the problem is that the software company's programmer (DotCom from New Zealand) was not that familiar with the concept of the CSS in CONGU. When the spec said *take the 'course rating' they didn't realise that the CSS was effectively just that.* They would have thought the gross score would have included the equivalent of the PCC. The person who wrote the spec was obviously not a professional either.
		
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Apologies once again but I don't understand this ? At our course the White Tee Course Rating is 71.6. (SSS is 72 versus a Par of 70.) The adjustments to CSS can vary up or down but typically are +1 taking the CSS to 73.

This is further away from the Course Rating and therefore CSS could not be seen as a good substitute for Course Rating.

If you have been informed that is the excuse for not adjusting for CSS - SSS, which should have been done, then it doesn't wash with me.


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## Wildboy370 (Oct 21, 2020)

I think for once those that have seen this data are all in agreement it is an utter shamble. England golf have come out of this process with egg all over them not just face. How can they have two years to sort, rest of world been doing this for 10 months and we still can’t get it rights. As someone already said they should hold there head in shame. We have one member who has 9 cards on the database, with a handicap of 14. They have used three cards all of yellows in non comp which he used to get his handicap to give him a HI of 8. But the other six cards disregarded he never get below after adjustment of a gross 90. All seems very unfair and chaotic.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			What do you mean. I have handicap index values for every member at my club, and England Golf asked us to ensure every member had an e-mail address within the club ISV, exactly so they had this info. It meant the owner had to get his staff to start chasing members and filling in the info where missing.

So, I'm unsure what you mean by "they haven't got the data to calculate the HI or the email addresses"
		
Click to expand...

I believe that all the data entered into our ISV application hasn't been sent yet to England Golf. Therefore many of the records in the EG Platform are incomplete and do not have an email address yet. Hence my comment about not being able to send the emails.

The score records also stopped in early October and it doesn't appear they have been copied to the new platform to enable the HI calculation to be made. If they send them out now many will be incomplete - why would you do that?


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Apologies once again but I don't understand this ?
		
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree 

When taking the individual score record the transition routine should have taken the CSS instead of using the Course Rating. That would have brought the Differential down by the Score Differential between (CSS - SSS).
The formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - PCC)
PCC is the equivalent of (CSS - SSS)
So the formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - (CSS - SSS))


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			I think for once those that have seen this data are all in agreement it is an utter shamble. England golf have come out of this process with egg all over them not just face. How can they have two years to sort, rest of world been doing this for 10 months and we still can’t get it rights. As someone already said they should hold there head in shame. We have one member who has 9 cards on the database, with a handicap of 14. They have used three cards all of yellows in non comp which he used to get his handicap to give him a HI of 8. But the other six cards disregarded he never get below after adjustment of a gross 90. All seems very unfair and chaotic.
		
Click to expand...

Just think, regular golfers, most of whom have no interest in how CONGU or WHS work, will have to use this for real in less than 2 weeks. So far, they have not seen the WHS Portal. They have no idea what their Index is. Hopefully some have bothered to listen to what their club has been saying about how it works generally. However, I think many many golfers, even those that have tried to learn about WHS, will be in for a shock on 2nd November, and everything has changed. 

And personally, as a handicap secretary who has tried to learn about this for a couple of years, I have no idea how any of this will look to them. What will howdidido look like when a golfer logs in (or whichever ISV is used)? How will Club V1 competition templates and handicapping sections look different. Will golfers use howdidido, or WHS Portal? How will they pre-register for supplementary scores and submit them before midnight. How will the software be set up to allow handicap secretaries to easily check when a dodgy supplementary has been added?

This was promised to be so so easy. Just log into an app, check your index, and off you go. For a system where golfers will be heavily reliant on the software, I am shocked that we haven't seen the final version months before launch, so we know exactly what we are facing when it comes into play.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 21, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			I think for once those that have seen this data are all in agreement it is an utter shamble. England golf have come out of this process with egg all over them not just face. How can they have two years to sort, rest of world been doing this for 10 months and we still can’t get it rights. As someone already said they should hold there head in shame. We have one member who has 9 cards on the database, with a handicap of 14. They have used three cards all of yellows in non comp which he used to get his handicap to give him a HI of 8. But the other six cards disregarded he never get below after adjustment of a gross 90. All seems very unfair and chaotic.
		
Click to expand...

I think all Clubs will have similar. The system really only works well with more acceptable scores than only a few. in all fairness, our Club made it clear that 20 scores was the ideal and warned that a low number of cards would penalise the golfer. In spite of that, many chose not to address the issue and they will initially be left with the result you have described.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just think, regular golfers, most of whom have no interest in how CONGU or WHS work, will have to use this for real in less than 2 weeks. So far, they have not seen the WHS Portal. They have no idea what their Index is. Hopefully some have bothered to listen to what their club has been saying about how it works generally. However, I think many many golfers, even those that have tried to learn about WHS, will be in for a shock on 2nd November, and everything has changed.

And personally, as a handicap secretary who has tried to learn about this for a couple of years, I have no idea how any of this will look to them. What will howdidido look like when a golfer logs in (or whichever ISV is used)? How will Club V1 competition templates and handicapping sections look different. Will golfers use howdidido, or WHS Portal? How will they pre-register for supplementary scores and submit them before midnight. How will the software be set up to allow handicap secretaries to easily check when a dodgy supplementary has been added?

This was promised to be so so easy. Just log into an app, check your index, and off you go. For a system where golfers will be heavily reliant on the software, I am shocked that we haven't seen the final version months before launch, so we know exactly what we are facing when it comes into play.
		
Click to expand...

You have perfectly described the missing ingredients. I have been asking our Handicap Secretary for exactly this for several months. It isn't his fault but none of these deliverables have been produced let alone any sort of testing /parallel run. Brave if they are going to run with this.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm inclined to agree 

When taking the individual score record the transition routine should have taken the CSS instead of using the Course Rating. That would have brought the Differential down by the Score Differential between (CSS - SSS).
The formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - PCC)
PCC is the equivalent of (CSS - SSS)
*So the formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - (CSS - SSS))*

Click to expand...

Yes that is my spec.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 21, 2020)

Just had an email from my club showing the course handicaps. Someone with a HI of 54 will get 66 shots off the white tees


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just had an email from my club showing the course handicaps. Someone with a HI of 54 will get 66 shots off the white tees 

Click to expand...

I don't think you'll see many taking it on.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just had an email from my club showing the course handicaps. Someone with a HI of 54 will get 66 shots off the white tees 

Click to expand...

In truth, we have some, how can I say it, very poor beginners who have joined in last year. No doubt they will improve rapidly, but definitely go round in well over 100, even 120+. However, their handicaps are typically high 30's at most. After all, contributing to those high scores will be some shocker holes that will get trimmed down a bit for handicap. Under WHS, they would/should get a lower index, more likely mid to low 30's.

So, although handicap index goes up to 54, I would be very very surprised if anybody gets an index close to that high in reality. Otherwise, you are looking at a golfer who probably shoots 130-140 on a great day, and on a typical day 150-200.


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm inclined to agree 

When taking the individual score record the transition routine should have taken the CSS instead of using the Course Rating. That would have brought the Differential down by the Score Differential between (CSS - SSS).
The formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - PCC)
PCC is the equivalent of (CSS - SSS)
So the formula is Score Differential = (113/Slope) x (Gross - CR - (CSS - SSS))
		
Click to expand...


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just had an email from my club showing the course handicaps. Someone with a HI of 54 will get 66 shots off the white tees 

Click to expand...

 The only players with over 50 handicaps where I play are new junior golfers.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

ATTENTION ALL

Just received an e-mail to say WHS Platform is now open to all golfers from England Golf.

However, the caveat is that it says their e-mail addresses and DOB must be on the WHS Club Platform before directing them to log in. So, as we use Club V1, does that mean this will be impossible until 1st November. I'm certainly not manually typing in all this information myself, when the club spect time weeks ago chasing for this info and entering it into Club V1


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## yandabrown (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			ATTENTION ALL

Just received an e-mail to say WHS Platform is now open to all golfers from England Golf.

However, the caveat is that it says their e-mail addresses and DOB must be on the WHS Club Platform before directing them to log in. So, as we use Club V1, does that mean this will be impossible until 1st November. I'm certainly not manually typing in all this information myself, when the club spect time weeks ago chasing for this info and entering it into Club V1
		
Click to expand...

I've been to the site and whilst I can see my indicative handicap index, I also get this warning:


Unfortunately, there is no email address attached to your account, so at this time we cannot complete the registration process.
*To unlock your full scoring history, including the scores that have counted towards your new index* - you will need to instruct your golf club to upload your email address onto the WHS platform.


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## yandabrown (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I've been to the site and whilst I can see my indicative handicap index, I also get this warning:


Unfortunately, there is no email address attached to your account, so at this time we cannot complete the registration process.
*To unlock your full scoring history, including the scores that have counted towards your new index* - you will need to instruct your golf club to upload your email address onto the WHS platform.
		
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To be clear, I got no email, I had just been monitoring the ENgland Golf My Account page for any changes.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			To be clear, I got no email, I had just been monitoring the ENgland Golf My Account page for any changes.
		
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The emails have now been sent to club members


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2020)

https://members.whsplatform.england...f Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,XUYP,3BX4NO,47PS3,1

Use your CDH number


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			To be clear, I got no email, I had just been monitoring the ENgland Golf My Account page for any changes.
		
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Yes, just got my friend to check, and he got same message

So, basically, unless e-mail addresses and DOD are on WHS platform, golfers will get no further than this.

So, who is going to type all these manually? Who is going to wait until the ISV send this information to WHS, like they were supposed to?


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, just got my friend to check, and he got same message

So, basically, unless e-mail addresses and DOD are on WHS platform, golfers will get no further than this.

So, who is going to type all these manually? Who is going to wait until the ISV send this information to WHS, like they were supposed to?
		
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Provided the club has finished entering any missing info the ISVs should have done it when the club gives the ok.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Provided the club has finished entering any missing info the ISVs should have done it when the club gives the ok.
		
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On The ClubSystem website:

National governing bodies in GB&I will be using the data contained in their current CDHs to calculate new WHS handicap indices.  No scores data is being sent to the new WHS systems until the 2nd November Launch date.

Therefore if you run qualifying competitions, or accept supplementary scores, at any time between now and the 1st November, we will attempt to send those scores to the existing CDHs.  Scores processed after that date will be sent and processed by the new CDHs.

Personal Data: Members' email addresses, dates of birth etc are now being transmitted (in England and Wales) from ClubV1 to the English and Welsh new central databases (where permission has been granted)

In Ireland and Scotland this data is not being requested.

The upload process for English and Welsh clubs should be complete in the next 24-48 hours.

whs@clubsystems.com


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## Whereditgo (Oct 22, 2020)

Just logged on to see if my spreadsheet was close to the WHS one, HI 13.2 on my spreadsheet and HI 13.3 on England Golf WHS.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Just logged on to see if my spreadsheet was close to the WHS one, HI 13.2 on my spreadsheet and HI 13.3 on England Golf WHS.
		
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Did you round your score differentials before averaging?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Just had an email from my club showing the course handicaps. Someone with a HI of 54 will get 66 shots off the white tees 

Click to expand...

Oh go home and take up something else ... ffs... some course management is required. My little boy won’t be playing any competitive golf until he can hit the ball consistently, some of you may disagree with that but that’s the way it’s going to be, and I will encourage him every step of the way, and help where I can.
I just checked my index, it’s dropped 0.3, so really no change but they only had 2 rounds to use, and I feel I have a few shots in the tank and those will become evident when more cards get handed in.


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## Whereditgo (Oct 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Probably differences in rounding
		
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Almost certainly - I was actually rather pleased that my spreadsheet was so close


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## yandabrown (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, just got my friend to check, and he got same message

So, basically, unless e-mail addresses and DOD are on WHS platform, golfers will get no further than this.

So, who is going to type all these manually? Who is going to wait until the ISV send this information to WHS, like they were supposed to?
		
Click to expand...

England Golf already had my email address associated with my CDH, they have beens sending me weekly emails. No need to get it from the ISV.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			England Golf already had my email address associated with my CDH, they have beens sending me weekly emails. No need to get it from the ISV.
		
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That's assuming joined up thinking. I think that the WHS portal/platform relies on DOBs and email addresses uploaded by the ISVs - Handicapmaster, ClubV1, IG etc.. I suspect if England Golf has your email address for any other reason there may not be a link between the two but I may be totally wrong.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Done a comparison on golfers at my club (Slope 133), and how their WHS Course handicap will compare to their CONGU Handicap, depending on what CONGU Handicap Range they are in. All golfers have played a minimum of 20 rounds in their initial WHS Playing History. Below shows the average change

Congu Handicap Range    =       WHS Course Handicap
            0 - 9 =                                     +0.5
           10 - 14 =                                  +0.7
           15 - 19 =                                  +1.7
           20 - 24  =                                 +2.5
           25 - 29 =                                  +2.9
              30+ =                                    +3.6

The averages would go up, especially for higher handicappers, if WHS or Handicap Committees do not sort out the golfers whose Index = CONGU Handicap for new golfers.


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## Scott W (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			That's assuming joined up thinking. I think that the WHS portal/platform relies on DOBs and email addresses uploaded by the ISVs - Handicapmaster, ClubV1, IG etc.. I suspect if England Golf has your email address for any other reason there may not be a link between the two but I may be totally wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Checked with my club and they havent "released" emails yet .... but point is still valid ...they already had it!!!


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## yandabrown (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			That's assuming joined up thinking. I think that the WHS portal/platform relies on DOBs and email addresses uploaded by the ISVs - Handicapmaster, ClubV1, IG etc.. I suspect if England Golf has your email address for any other reason there may not be a link between the two but I may be totally wrong.
		
Click to expand...

It definitely allowed me to login and see my "benefits" and my handicap. I did also allow them to use it to send me stuff. Never mind, I'm sure everything will be peachy on the 2nd


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Done a comparison on golfers at my club (Slope 133), and how their WHS Course handicap will compare to their CONGU Handicap, depending on what CONGU Handicap Range they are in. All golfers have played a minimum of 20 rounds in their initial WHS Playing History. Below shows the average change

Congu Handicap Range    =       WHS Course Handicap
            0 - 9 =                                     +0.5
           10 - 14 =                                  +0.7
           15 - 19 =                                  +1.7
           20 - 24  =                                 +2.5
           25 - 29 =                                  +2.9
              30+ =                                    +3.6

The averages would go up, especially for higher handicappers, if WHS or Handicap Committees do not sort out the golfers whose Index = CONGU Handicap for new golfers.
		
Click to expand...

I admire your stamina - I have just been through the dashboard deleting all those who aren't club members.


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

Scott W said:



			Checked with my club and they havent "released" emails yet .... but point is still valid ...they already had it!!!
		
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If it takes the golf club to release the emails then we are all shafted in Wales till 9th November, as all clubs closed till then, even the offices.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			If it takes the golf club to release the emails then we are all shafted in Wales till 9th November, as all clubs closed till then, even the offices.
		
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Most if not all systems can be accessed remotely


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I admire your stamina - I have just been through the dashboard deleting all those who aren't club members.
		
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Strange - the list of members on the dashboard for our club matched exactly with the list of members on our handicapping software.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			If it takes the golf club to release the emails then we are all shafted in Wales till 9th November, as all clubs closed till then, even the offices.
		
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It is not the clubs, it is the ISV providers, such as ClubV1. However:


The club had to ensure the e-mail addresses and DOB were in their ISV for each player. They were reminded of this only at the end of last month
The ISVs (Club Systems anyway) were refusing to send WHS member personal data, although I found out today that they would do so if each club gave them permission. Our owner requested this to be done today, and they said they'd get it done by the end of the week.
So, it may be that you rclub just needs to contact the ISV to get them to send it. However, they will have bigger problems if none of that data is in their ISV in the first place.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Just received from Handicapmaster:

"It has come to our attention that a change was made by DotGolf to the England Golf/Wales Golf WHS Platform last night that disrupts HandicapMaster accessing club membership lists from the WHS server.

We were not advised that DotGolf were planning these late changes to the WHS system and were therefore unable to pre-plan for this with our software release last week.

We are sorry that their WHS system change has rendered the facility to upload Date of Birth and Email addresses to the WHS Platform in HandicapMaster mostly inoperable.

We have reported the issue to DotGolf (and England Golf and Wales Golf) and are awaiting a response.

We will update the following entry on our forum with further news as and when available: "


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Strange - the list of members on the dashboard for our club matched exactly with the list of members on our handicapping software.
		
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Only had 15 and I suspect looking at the CDH DB that was because they still haven't managed to action our purge request from the other week.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just received from Handicapmaster:

"It has come to our attention that a change was made by DotGolf to the England Golf/Wales Golf WHS Platform last night that disrupts HandicapMaster accessing club membership lists from the WHS server.

We were not advised that DotGolf were planning these late changes to the WHS system and were therefore unable to pre-plan for this with our software release last week.

We are sorry that their WHS system change has rendered the facility to upload Date of Birth and Email addresses to the WHS Platform in HandicapMaster mostly inoperable.

We have reported the issue to DotGolf (and England Golf and Wales Golf) and are awaiting a response.

We will update the following entry on our forum with further news as and when available: "
		
Click to expand...

FKINL

....are we sure the government is not running this project??


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just received from Handicapmaster:

"It has come to our attention that a change was made by DotGolf to the England Golf/Wales Golf WHS Platform last night that disrupts HandicapMaster accessing club membership lists from the WHS server.

We were not advised that DotGolf were planning these late changes to the WHS system and were therefore unable to pre-plan for this with our software release last week.

We are sorry that their WHS system change has rendered the facility to upload Date of Birth and Email addresses to the WHS Platform in HandicapMaster mostly inoperable.

We have reported the issue to DotGolf (and England Golf and Wales Golf) and are awaiting a response.

We will update the following entry on our forum with further news as and when available: "
		
Click to expand...

We are club systems and so far, so good with members registering through the day which is probably the reason the system keeps crashing


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only had 15 and I suspect looking at the CDH DB that was because* they still haven't managed to action our purge request from the other week*.
		
Click to expand...

Am I surprised?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We are club systems and so far, so good with members registering through the day which is probably the reason the system keeps crashing 

Click to expand...

Can I ask, when you log onto WHS Portal for your club, can you see the e-mail addresses and DOBs of all other players except yourself (i.e. they must be in the WHS for your club given members can log in)

Club V1 have not yet sent that data across to WHS for our club, but we contacted them today and said they would later in week. I was going to keep logging in to see if that data was there for other members. However, I'm assuming that would be visible to me, rather than hidden away for privacy? I guess it should be OK as I'm logged in as Admin


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## nickjdavis (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Can I ask, when you log onto WHS Portal for your club, can you see the e-mail addresses and DOBs of all other players except yourself (i.e. they must be in the WHS for your club given members can log in)

Club V1 have not yet sent that data across to WHS for our club, but we contacted them today and said they would later in week. I was going to keep logging in to see if that data was there for other members. However, I'm assuming that would be visible to me, rather than hidden away for privacy? I guess it should be OK as I'm logged in as Admin
		
Click to expand...

When I use my admin log-in I can see everything...emails, DoB's, inside leg measurements. I am currently trying to give a member access without him specifying his DoB to see what it allows him to do as I still haven't seen anywhere that it asks you to confirm your DoB or anywhere where it is obviously used in the log-in  or registration process!! I'm wondering if we can set all members DoB to the same value like 1/1/2000....I mean the WHS makes no attempt to verify that a DoB is correct from what I can see...might be a solution for those members who are unhappy to share their DoB.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Can I ask, when you log onto WHS Portal for your club, can you see the e-mail addresses and DOBs of all other players except yourself (i.e. they must be in the WHS for your club given members can log in)

Club V1 have not yet sent that data across to WHS for our club, but we contacted them today and said they would later in week. I was going to keep logging in to see if that data was there for other members. However, I'm assuming that would be visible to me, rather than hidden away for privacy? I guess it should be OK as I'm logged in as Admin
		
Click to expand...

You can only see the data of those who have registered so far and completed what they want people to see on the main page but you can drill down from there for other information..  Now set up https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/whs-isv-issues.107009/


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

Comparing reports, I see that we have about 60 members without a CDH number. Almost all are long time non golfers, but 2 names in particular play most weeks. Should I create a CDH number for them now in ClubV1 before the changeover, or wait until after the 2nd?


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Comparing reports, I see that we have about 60 members without a CDH number. Almost all are long time non golfers, but 2 names in particular play most weeks. Should I create a CDH number for them now in ClubV1 before the changeover, or wait until after the 2nd?
		
Click to expand...

Surely his CDH number should show in your software if he plays regularly in your comps. I wouldn't have thought it a good idea to arbitrarily give him another CDH number.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Surely his CDH number should show in your software if he plays regularly in your comps. I wouldn't have thought it a good idea to arbitrarily give him another CDH number.
		
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Not if it was never allocated. If they are regular players then yes.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not if it was never allocated. If they are regular players then yes.
		
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He said the 2 players played most weeks. They couldn't play in QRs without an allocated CDH number.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Comparing reports, I see that we have about 60 members without a CDH number. Almost all are long time non golfers, but 2 names in particular play most weeks. Should I create a CDH number for them now in ClubV1 before the changeover, or wait until after the 2nd?
		
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Problem is, all their scores up to now will not be included on their new CDH number. When I took over as handicap sec last year, I noticed one guy had no CDH number, so I assigned one. On WHS, only his scores are included from when that CDH was created, nothing from 2018. You may need to manually enter his scores if possible, perhaps after WHS goes live.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Comparing reports, I see that we have about 60 members without a CDH number. Almost all are long time non golfers, but 2 names in particular play most weeks. Should I create a CDH number for them now in ClubV1 before the changeover, or wait until after the 2nd?
		
Click to expand...

Get definitive advice from England Golf - you could screw everything up for yourself.
handicapping@englandgolf.org


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			England Golf already had my email address associated with my CDH, they have beens sending me weekly emails. No need to get it from the ISV.
		
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True but DotGolf a New Zealand firm are running the software so it needs to be used by them. Hence I suspect the GDPR permissions they have been seeking recently. I doubt EG had permission to share your details with a third party.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Get definitive advice from England Golf - you could screw everything up for yourself.
handicapping@englandgolf.org

Click to expand...

Good advice.

After going through every golfer with a handicap, I noticed 2 brothers had their handicaps completely swapped in WHS. I discussed this with WHS. No idea what was going on, but I can only imagine the old handicap sec must have entered the wrong scores in for each player, and instead of redoing it, asked the owners to simply switch their names and contact details on the system. Sadly, CDH wouldn't have known that. This would have been pre-2014.

So, WHS said the best thing to do would be to swap their names and personal details back, before launch. It'll look weird for the players when their CONGU handicap changes, but will be as it should be once WHS is live.

It is weird stuff like that in which the WHS guys can give good advice. They must be busy.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			They must be busy.
		
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No kidding! I've normally got an inside track but contact is difficult.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Problem is, all their scores up to now will not be included on their new CDH number. When I took over as handicap sec last year, I noticed one guy had no CDH number, so I assigned one. On WHS, only his scores are included from when that CDH was created, nothing from 2018. You may need to manually enter his scores if possible, perhaps after WHS goes live.
		
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I asked this in another of my posts. How could his pre-2018 QR scores be processed without a CDH number?


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			He said the 2 players played most weeks. They couldn't play in QRs without an allocated CDH number.
		
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Why not, I’m pretty sure I can set a comp up and allow anyone to play in it as long as they have a handicap and you can have a handicap without a CDH No.


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## rosecott (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why not, I’m pretty sure I can set a comp up and allow anyone to play in it as long as they have a handicap and you can have a handicap without a CDH No.
		
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Really? I must lead a very regulated and sheltered life.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I asked this in another of my posts. How could his pre-2018 QR scores be processed without a CDH number?
		
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Club V1 happily worked out his handicap without a CDH. If you look at his record on Club V1, nothing looks unusual pre 2019. Except, none of these scores were being sent to CDH, and only way you'd notice is if you happened to be looking specifically for CDH number. 

I cant remember what I had to do when I assigned one. Whether it just kept his handicap club V1 had worked out to that point, or whether I set it to match.

I suspect it is a bit of a flaw in Club V1. I'd have thought warning messages at least would remind these were missing.


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

My thoughts are, without contacting Wales Golf, if I create the CDH number now then all data will be pulled over on 1st November at midnight.


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

I will contact Wales golf to check though.


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## Tommy10 (Oct 23, 2020)

Scottish Golf app has updated, I got 19.2 as HI (down from CONGU 21.9) but I will still get 22/23 off the whites so no harm done. Happy to be under 20 with the index


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## Crazyface (Oct 23, 2020)

I'm expecting a big increase in mine,(2 shots at least). I've had some shocking scores at my new club do to it (I know now) being a tougher place to play.


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## Beedee (Oct 23, 2020)

Just noticed that the medal rounds where I'd NR'ed haven't been included in my WHS rounds even though CONGU gave me the appropriate handicap adjustment (some 0.1s and some buffers).  So my index should be a wee bit higher than the current suggestion.  

Oh well, play a few more rounds and it will iron itself out in the end.


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

Via the Scottish Golf app, my "projected" index is 4.3, which is close enough to the 4.2 I'd figured it out as. I'm aware that this won't be a definite index until Nov 2nd but I can't see it being too different.

The interesting thing is my course handicap will now be 6, against my "old" Congu handicap of 5.2. Only 0.3 out in practice but getting an extra shot on the same course my handicap was calculated on seems odd.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Think our course has been rated bit high 

My index came back as 20.2 

Off whites at my place would put me off 24

At royal portrush would be 22 lol don't think we are harder than an open venue


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Via the Scottish Golf app, my "projected" index is 4.3, which is close enough to the 4.2 I'd figured it out as. I'm aware that this won't be a definite index until Nov 2nd but I can't see it being too different.

The interesting thing is my course handicap will now be 6, against my "old" Congu handicap of 5.2. Only 0.3 out in practice but getting an extra shot on the same course my handicap was calculated on seems odd.
		
Click to expand...

Remember the calculation principles are quite different. Ratchet vs Average. If all the 'old' national systems produced the same answer there would have been no reason to change.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Think our course has been rated bit high

My index came back as 20.2

Off whites at my place would put me off 24

At royal portrush would be 22 lol don't think we are harder than an open venue
		
Click to expand...

You may well not be, what is the difference in Course Ratings?

I'd imagine Royal Portrush is very hard for scratch golfers, which could result in a lower Slope. Your club may be very easy for scratch golfers, but still fairly difficult for bogey golfers. That could give a higher Slope at your place, even though Royal Portrush is still, in an absolute sense, a more difficult test.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You may well not be, what is the difference in Course Ratings?

I'd imagine Royal Portrush is very hard for scratch golfers, which could result in a lower Slope. Your club may be very easy for scratch golfers, but still fairly difficult for bogey golfers. That could give a higher Slope at your place, even though Royal Portrush is still, in an absolute sense, a more difficult test.
		
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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

I'm confused, when you did your Course handicap calculations, did you get the courses mixed up:

Royal Portrush has a higher Slope that your course, if I am reading that graphic correctly.

So, your course (whites) has a slope of 121. so course handicap = 22
Blues at Portrush, Slope of 134, so your course handicap = 24
Whites at Portrush, Slope of 127, so your course handicap = 23

Interestingly, the Slope is still not overly high at Royal Portrush compared to most, I'd say its slope is around average, likely because it is a tough test for Scratch Golfers, and therefore the high Course Rating (your course is also tough for scratch golfers, as CR is still quite high).

However, if you played somewhere like Forest Pines, Course Rating is only 0.5 over par, but it is a tough test for bogey golfers, with a Bogey Rating of 101.2 (I can confirm this, played there a fair bit). This results in a slope of 149, and you'd have a handicap there of 27. So, although Forest Pines would be an easier course for the scratch golfer compared to Royal Portrush, or even your course, it is much tougher for bogey golfers. Therefore, higher handicappers will get more shots at Forest Pines than the other 2.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm confused, when you did your Course handicap calculations, did you get the courses mixed up:

Royal Portrush has a higher Slope that your course, if I am reading that graphic correctly.

So, your course (whites) has a slope of 121. so course handicap = 22
Blues at Portrush, Slope of 134, so your course handicap = 24
Whites at Portrush, Slope of 127, so your course handicap = 23

Interestingly, the Slope is still not overly high at Royal Portrush compared to most, I'd say its slope is around average, likely because it is a tough test for Scratch Golfers, and therefore the high Course Rating (your course is also tough for scratch golfers, as CR is still quite high).

However, if you played somewhere like Forest Pines, Course Rating is only 0.5 over par, but it is a tough test for bogey golfers, with a Bogey Rating of 101.2 (I can confirm this, played there a fair bit). This results in a slope of 149, and you'd have a handicap there of 27. So, although Forest Pines would be an easier course for the scratch golfer compared to Royal Portrush, or even your course, it is much tougher for bogey golfers. Therefore, higher handicappers will get more shots at Forest Pines than the other 2.
		
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If I out my figures in it says I'm 24 at mine off whites

Done on this site

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If I out my figures in it says I'm 24 at mine off whites

Done on this site

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

Something has gone wrong somewhere when using that site. Your course has a slope of 121. Your Index is 20.2. So, your Course Handicap = 20.2 x 121 / 113 = 21.6 (i.e. 22)


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Something has gone wrong somewhere when using that site. Your course has a slope of 121. Your Index is 20.2. So, your Course Handicap = 20.2 x 121 / 113 = 21.6 (i.e. 22)
		
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So you don't use the sites and add the course ratings aswell as slope?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So you don't use the sites and add the course ratings aswell as slope?
		
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Ahh, I think I know what has happened here. The site you used is for the USA. In their Course Handicap Calculator, they also include the difference between Par and CR. We do not. So, don't use the USGA app


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ahh, I think I know what has happened here. The site you used is for the USA. In their Course Handicap Calculator, they also include the difference between Par and CR. We do not. So, don't use the USGA app
		
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So basically just get your index .. times by slope and divide by 113?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ahh, I think I know what has happened here. The site you used is for the USA. In their Course Handicap Calculator, they also include the difference between Par and CR. We do not. So, don't use the USGA app
		
Click to expand...

Note, if the courses were in USA, and using their app, you would play off:

Your Course (Whites) = 24
Your Course (Yellows) = 21
Portrush (Blues) = 27
Portrush (Whites) = 22


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So basically just get your index .. times by slope and divide by 113?
		
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Correct. And that will tie up with the charts at each club. The Apps you are directed to use (such as howdidido) will no doubt do this for you as well (no idea what they will look like yet, but still ages to go, just over a week)


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Remember the calculation principles are quite different. Ratchet vs Average. If all the 'old' national systems produced the same answer there would have been no reason to change.
		
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Yeah, I get the differences and don't have any particular issue with the new system, just a bit of a curiosity that as my index goes down my course and playing handicap goes up even though they're all based on the same course. I guess my better than average scores generally aren't as far below the average as my higher ones are higher, if that makes sense?!
We'll see what happens when/if Scottish golf use CSS rather than course rating for the differentials and anything else the next few days may bring.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Correct. And that will tie up with the charts at each club. The Apps you are directed to use (such as howdidido) will no doubt do this for you as well (no idea what they will look like yet, but still ages to go, just over a week)
		
Click to expand...

We all in my group had a look at our index's on golf England last night and it does sound a bit mad

The 13.9 handicapper is now off index 7.8
The 20 handicapper is now off index 14.5
Mine was 25.4 now 20.2
The 16.7 handicapper is now 11.5

So I've lost 3 shots playing handicap off whites
The 14 is now playing 8
The 20 is playing 16
The 17 is playing 12

Seems like the slope or index is wrong

Think the slope is low tbh it's a tough course


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We all in my group had a look at our index's on golf England last night and it does sound a bit mad

The 13.9 handicapper is now off index 7.8
The 20 handicapper is now off index 14.5
Mine was 25.4 now 20.2
The 16.7 handicapper is now 11.5

So I've lost 3 shots playing handicap off whites
The 14 is now playing 8
The 20 is playing 16
The 17 is playing 12

Seems like the slope or index is wrong

Think the slope is low tbh it's a tough course
		
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How many scores have WHS been able to use to calculate each players Index? At my club, those who will end up with a course handicap of 2 or more less than Congu, had only a few scores submitted since Jan 2018.


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Ahh, I think I know what has happened here. The site you used is for the USA. In their Course Handicap Calculator, they also include the difference between Par and CR. We do not. So, don't use the USGA app
		
Click to expand...

The R&A online calculator seems to take into account the difference between par and CR, no?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			The R&A online calculator seems to take into account the difference between par and CR, no?
		
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I've not seen it, but just googled it. It gives you the option whether you want that bit included or not before you get started. It needs to, as the R&A is applicable worldwide, not just UK


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've not seen it, but just googled it. It gives you the option whether you want that bit included or not before you get started. It needs to, as the R&A is applicable worldwide, not just UK
		
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Ah, so you reckon that, while the R&A site gives you the option to include that calculation, it isn't going to be implemented here?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			How many scores have WHS been able to use to calculate each players Index? At my club, those who will end up with a course handicap of 2 or more less than Congu, had only a few scores submitted since Jan 2018.
		
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Not many cards mine is 7 plus my joining cards (if you include the 9 hole comps) 4 just normal 18 holes 

6 cards seems about average


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Ah, so you reckon that, while the R&A site gives you the option to include that calculation, it isn't going to be implemented here?
		
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It definitely won't be implemented in the UK.


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## jim8flog (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, just got my friend to check, and he got same message

So, basically, unless e-mail addresses and DOD are on WHS platform, golfers will get no further than this.

So, who is going to type all these manually? Who is going to wait until the ISV send this information to WHS, like they were supposed to?
		
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 I know tis was a yesterday post but just spotted this

DOD    Did you not clean the handicap database of the deceased.


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## yandabrown (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			The R&A online calculator seems to take into account the difference between par and CR, no?
		
Click to expand...

It looks like it gives you the option with the helpful hint: "*you may or may not be required to include Course Rating and Par in this calculation. Check with the golf club, the Committee or the Authorised Association*", a simple drop down of which country you are to be playing in would be better imho.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not many cards mine is 7 plus my joining cards (if you include the 9 hole comps) 4 just normal 18 holes

6 cards seems about average
		
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That is probably a big reason why then

Firstly, the joining 3 cards were probably completely ignored (they were last week anyway, but not checked if they have rectified that). So, if you only have 7 cards in, it only takes the average of your lowest 2 scores to get Index. If 6, it takes average of lowest 2 and subtracts 1. So, if you only have a few scores, your best card could result in quite a low index. As you submit more cards, this should hopefully refine itself into something more "accurate"


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It definitely won't be implemented in the UK.
		
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Grand, thanks.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That is probably a big reason why then

Firstly, the joining 3 cards were probably completely ignored (they were last week anyway, but not checked if they have rectified that). So, if you only have 7 cards in, it only takes the average of your lowest 2 scores to get Index. If 6, it takes average of lowest 2 and subtracts 1. So, if you only have a few scores, your best card could result in quite a low index. As you submit more cards, this should hopefully refine itself into something more "accurate"
		
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That makes a lot of sense 

My best scores were 36 and ,33 points I believe so would explain index maybe


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 23, 2020)

Logged into Golf England and looks like my new mark will be 11.5. I'm currently 12.1


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It definitely won't be implemented in the UK.
		
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That's not my understanding, it will not be implemented in England,  but it *will in Scotland. *


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			That's not my understanding, it will not be implemented in England,  but it *will in Scotland. *

Click to expand...

Not according to Scottish Golf's website:
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/


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## Swango1980 (Oct 23, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			That's not my understanding, it will not be implemented in England,  but it *will in Scotland. *

Click to expand...

That's an interesting point. I'm based in England, and have been in quite in depth conversations with England Golf as to why they decided not to include the difference between CR and Par. Directly from the WHS Manual, Section 6.1 simply says Course Handicap = Index x Slope/113). There is no reference at all about adding CR-Par. Furthermore, in the local UK advice document, there is no reference to say any UK nation takes a different approach. So, I can only assume that Scotland is the same, but would be interested to find out if not.

I presume in countries like the USA, they have their own local advice document that applied CR-Par.


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## jim8flog (Oct 23, 2020)

Time to kill today

I have been doing some one on one calculations.

My WHS scores verses the same ones on my UHS record. Allowing for desloping and SSS/CSS with Gross diff v Course rating with score differential.  Just a few oddities with the decimal points hence why there may be a difference in my ongoing workings of my HI and what they have got.

Our par and SSS are the same off whites and there has only been a couple of comps where the CSS has not equalled the SSS so is the difference of 0.2 between course rating and par that has thrown up the slight decimal point differences.

There is so little difference that I know for me personally it will not worry me.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Not according to Scottish Golf's website:
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/

Click to expand...

Thanks for putting me right,  I'm sure I read on one of the other threads that Scottish Golf was treating it differently but would appear from your link that they are not.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That's an interesting point. I'm based in England, and have been in quite in depth conversations with England Golf as to why they decided not to include the difference between CR and Par. Directly from the WHS Manual, Section 6.1 simply says Course Handicap = Index x Slope/113). There is no reference at all about adding CR-Par. Furthermore, in the local UK advice document, there is no reference to say any UK nation takes a different approach. So, I can only assume that Scotland is the same, but would be interested to find out if not.

I presume in countries like the USA, they have their own local advice document that applied CR-Par.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry it appears I was wrong.


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Thanks for putting me right,  I'm sure I read on one of the other threads that Scottish Golf was treating it differently but would appear from your link that they are not.
		
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I think Scottish golf are treating the point where rounding occurs in terms of working out playing handicap differently but can’t quite find anything to substantiate that at the moment. I think in Scotland we’ll get 95% of course handicap before rounding, so 95% of 4.9 rather than 5 in my case, with the rest of the U.K. rounding to 5 then getting 95% of that, although as I said I can’t find where I read that so feel free to correct or ignore me!


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			I think Scottish golf are treating the point where rounding occurs in terms of working out playing handicap differently but can’t quite find anything to substantiate that at the moment. I think in Scotland we’ll get 95% of course handicap before rounding, so 95% of 4.9 rather than 5 in my case, with the rest of the U.K. rounding to 5 then getting 95% of that, although as I said I can’t find where I read that so feel free to correct or ignore me!
		
Click to expand...

It's in another thread on this site


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It's in another thread on this site
		
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Ah yes, thanks. So many threads on the go here and so many whatsapp conversations today it’s hard to remember!


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Ah yes, thanks. So many threads on the go here and so many whatsapp conversations today it’s hard to remember!
		
Click to expand...

So in Scotland, we have to put the course handicap on our card to 1 decimal point instead of rounding to the nearest whole number?


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			So in Scotland, we have to put the course handicap on our card to 1 decimal point instead of rounding to the nearest whole number?
		
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I believe so, aye.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			I believe so, aye.
		
Click to expand...

So how will that work for stableford adjustment and the whole thing about in Stableford comps, not picking up too soon as it's not based on the Playing Handicap (95% allowance in this example) but your Course handicap?  If Course Handicap is not rounded to a whole number, do I get 0.7 strokes on SI hole 12 if my handicap is 11.7?


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			So how will that work for stableford adjustment and the whole thing about in Stableford comps, not picking up too soon as it's not based on the Playing Handicap (95% allowance in this example) but your Course handicap?  If Course Handicap is not rounded to a whole number, do I get 0.7 strokes on SI hole 12 if my handicap is 11.7?
		
Click to expand...

Stableford adjustment can be done just as easily, with net double bogey inserted. You probably need that 0.7 shot on the 12th. But if you hit a half shot, does that only count as 0.5, leaving 0.2 over?


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Stableford adjustment can be done just as easily, with net double bogey inserted. You probably need that 0.7 shot on the 12th. But if you hit a half shot, does that only count as 0.5, leaving 0.2 over?
		
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It was a serious question, I'm a Mathematician to trade to rounding is very close to my heart.  It makes the "when do you pick up in a stableford" question trickier based on the information that your course handicap and not playing handicap is used for any stableford adjustments made to your gross score to calculate your adjusted gross score.  Don't know how that can work properly if Course Handicap is not a whole number.  If is IS a whole number when doing stableford adjustments, it then means you have in effect 2 course handicaps...

And my handicap isn't 11.7 so no 0.7 shots for me on the 12th


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It was a serious question, I'm a Mathematician to trade to rounding is very close to my heart.  It makes the "when do you pick up in a stableford" question trickier based on the information that your course handicap and not playing handicap is used for any stableford adjustments made to your gross score to calculate your adjusted gross score.  Don't know how that can work properly if Course Handicap is not a whole number.  If is IS a whole number when doing stableford adjustments, it then means you have in effect 2 course handicaps...

And my handicap isn't 11.7 so no 0.7 shots for me on the 12th 

Click to expand...

Wouldn’t you just round it for that purpose after you’ve calculated your playing handicap? Seems clumsy but you could probably argue the whole thing feels clumsy at this stage anyway.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It was a serious question, I'm a Mathematician to trade to rounding is very close to my heart.  It makes the "when do you pick up in a stableford" question trickier based on the information that your course handicap and not playing handicap is used for any stableford adjustments made to your gross score to calculate your adjusted gross score.  Don't know how that can work properly if Course Handicap is not a whole number.  If is IS a whole number when doing stableford adjustments, it then means you have in effect 2 course handicaps...

And my handicap isn't 11.7 so no 0.7 shots for me on the 12th 

Click to expand...

That 12th is a classic three quarter par hole, though, isn't it?. 

WHS can handle decimal scores, some course ratings are decimal, so the differentials will be to one decimal point anyway.


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## larmen (Oct 23, 2020)

Just had a bit of fun search and in Augusta I would get 5 extra shots compared to home. Is that for the championship setup already? Or should I just double my handicap?
Pebble Beach another 2 shots on top of that, Winged Foot in teh middle.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That 12th is a classic three quarter par hole, though, isn't it?.

WHS can handle decimal scores, some course ratings are decimal, so the differentials will be to one decimal point anyway.
		
Click to expand...

It's the net bit of net double bogey I'm not getting my head around yet.  Your gross score on any hole can only be a whole number and a net double bogey on any given hole also has to be a whole  number as it's a comparison to the Par of the hole which is also a whole number, so I don't understand how the adjustment can be made on the single hole you don't get a full shot if the Course Handicap is a decimal.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			It's the net bit of net double bogey I'm not getting my head around yet.  Your gross score on any hole can only be a whole number and a net double bogey on any given hole also has to be a whole  number as it's a comparison to the Par of the hole which is also a whole number, so I don't understand how the adjustment can be made on the single hole you don't get a full shot if the Course Handicap is a decimal.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of courses have decimal course ratings, 72.1 or whatever, so that fractionation is already baked into the system. No mathematical reason those ratings can work and decimal handicaps can't. I assume that for score card purposes, the score will have to be in whole indivisible shots or points, so no net 3.3 on that hole or 0.7 points, but WHS calculations can be more precise.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Lots of courses have decimal course ratings, 72.1 or whatever, so that fractionation is already baked into the system. No mathematical reason those ratings can work and decimal handicaps can't. I assume that for score card purposes, the score will have to be in whole indivisible shots or points, so no net 3.3 on that hole or 0.7 points, but WHS calculations can be more precise.
		
Click to expand...

I'm fine with fractional course ratings and fractional handicaps, what I'm not fine with is fractional net double bogeys on individual holes as a net double bogey can't be fractional.  So in my example, if the fictional player off 11.7 scores a 9 on the hole with SI 12 (Par 4), the question is how what is his adjusted gross score on that hole to give a net double bogey?  Will the calculation give a fractional answer for that individual hole?

Will be interesting to find out once we're up and running up here in sunny Scotland.


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			I believe so, aye.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think so. The decimal is only used when calculating the Playing Handicap. It should be on the card as an integer and the integer is used when calculating the score differential


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I'm fine with fractional course ratings and fractional handicaps, what I'm not fine with is fractional net double bogeys on individual holes as a net double bogey can't be fractional.  So in my example, if the fictional player off 11.7 scores a 9 on the hole with SI 12 (Par 4), the question is how what is his adjusted gross score on that hole to give a net double bogey?  Will the calculation give a fractional answer for that individual hole?

Will be interesting to find out once we're up and running up here in sunny Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Surely - surely - course handicap will be 12 for the purpose of adjusting scores? Anything else would be bonkers and I haven’t seen anything anywhere that suggests fractional “strokes” will be used.
Playing handicap = 11.7x0.95
Course handicap = 13


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Surely - surely - course handicap will be 12? Anything else would be bonkers and I haven’t seen anything anywhere that suggests fractional “strokes” will be used.
Playing handicap = 11.7x0.95
Course handicap = 13
		
Click to expand...

Course handicap is not rounded to a whole number in Scotland, that's why I've been asking the question...


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Course handicap is not rounded to a whole number in Scotland, that's why I've been asking the question...
		
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Aye, not rounded to a whole number for calculating playing handicap but thereafter it must have to be rounded, otherwise, as you’ve pointed out, madness lies ahead.
If you’re playing an individual matchplay your course handicap won’t be 11.7, it’ll be 12.


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Course handicap is not rounded to a whole number in Scotland, that's why I've been asking the question...
		
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It is *only* not rounded when calculating the Playing Handicap when a Handicap Adjustment is to be applied.
It is rounded for all other purposes


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Aye, not rounded to a whole number for calculating playing handicap but thereafter it must have to be rounded, otherwise, as you’ve pointed out, madness lies ahead.
If you’re playing an individual matchplay your course handicap won’t be 11.7, it’ll be 12.
		
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You play using your PLAYING handicap which IS rounded to a whole number, but course handicap is used for processing your score for your handicap record and it is NOT rounded, so to get net double bogeys for gross adjusted scores purposes, fractional adjusted scores will be needed for individual holes.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is *only* not rounded when calculating the Playing Handicap when a Handicap Adjustment is to be applied.
It is rounded for all other purposes
		
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So you have 2 course handicaps in Scotland, one not rounded to be used to work out your playing handicap then you subsequently round it afterwards? That really is stupid...

Which one goes on your scorecard?


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			That really is stupid...

Which one goes on your scorecard?
		
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That why England, Ireland and Wales use the rounded figure before calculating the playing handicap.

The rounded value.

The rounded value is by 'definition' the CH. The unrounded value is only an element of the PH calculation. It has no life of its own.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That why England, Ireland and Wales use the rounded figure before calculating the playing handicap.
		
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Typical Scotland, always have to be different...


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## rulefan (Oct 23, 2020)

I think the RoW are 'unrounding'.
EG et al  thought that players without an app or PC would have trouble calculating the unrounded CH (the boards show the rounded CH) and then taking 95% of that.


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## azazel (Oct 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is *only* not rounded when calculating the Playing Handicap when a Handicap Adjustment is to be applied.
It is rounded for all other purposes
		
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Thanks, that’s really clear and helpful.
Scottish Golf seem to be putting a lot of store in their app and the associated IT system to be used by all clubs, I wonder if they’re expecting everyone, from golfers to handicap secretaries to committees to rely on technology to take care of everything. Risky if so.
edit: meant to quote your subsequent post but this one was also really helpful.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2020)

azazel said:



			Thanks, that’s really clear and helpful.
Scottish Golf seem to be putting a lot of store in their app and the associated IT system to be used by all clubs, I wonder if they’re expecting everyone, from golfers to handicap secretaries to committees to rely on technology to take care of everything. Risky if so.
edit: meant to quote your subsequent post but this one was also really helpful.
		
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Will be fine till the first time the computer is gubbed...

But in all seriousness, despite the lack of communication and current issues arising from the change over, I'm totally fine with the new system as I think it is a fairer system.  A moving average will better reflect your current level of play for golfers who regularly play comps and you get more shots on more difficult courses and less on easier courses, and for that the course/slope ratings gubbins are necessary to work that out.

And instead of playing with buffer in mind, it will be playing knowing the 20th score which will drop off after you've played today and the 8th best score currently counting that you're trying to beat to get a cut.  I'm looking forward to it getting up and running.


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## IanMcC (Oct 24, 2020)

Wales Golf WHS Portal now available for golfers

https://www.walesgolf.org/my-wales-golf-whs-player-portal/


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## Crazyface (Oct 24, 2020)

Can't access the England Golf one. Nothing happens after entering CDH number


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2020)

I'm in! Lost a shot!!! Wahoo !!! All those point ones this season, wiped out !


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## timd77 (Oct 25, 2020)

Has anyone come across an app which calculates your course handicap? I know you can do it on the r&a or usga websites, but an app would be handy.


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## IainP (Oct 25, 2020)

timd77 said:



			Has anyone come across an app which calculates your course handicap? I know you can do it on the r&a or usga websites, but an app would be handy.
		
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Is you concern about not having internet access?
I'm assuming you'd have to give any app your index and the slope, so not convinced it would give much value over the calculator (on your phone)
But I may be missing something.


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## IainP (Oct 25, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm in! Lost a shot!!! Wahoo !!! All those point ones this season, wiped out !
		
Click to expand...

No smilies, so just to remind you'd need to calculate your course handicap. There are links on all the WHS threads but can post them if needed.


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## timd77 (Oct 25, 2020)

IainP said:



			Is you concern about not having internet access?
I'm assuming you'd have to give any app your index and the slope, so not convinced it would give much value over the calculator.
But I may be missing something.
		
Click to expand...

No, it’s more that flicking between 2 web pages (the course guide and the calculator) is a bit of a pain on a phone. Flicking between a website and an app is a bit easier! 1st world problems!


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

timd77 said:



			Has anyone come across an app which calculates your course handicap? I know you can do it on the r&a or usga websites, but an app would be handy.
		
Click to expand...

What's wrong with the notice on the 1st tee or outside the proshop?


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## Crazyface (Oct 25, 2020)

IainP said:



			No smilies, so just to remind you'd need to calculate your course handicap. There are links on all the WHS threads but can post them if needed.
		
Click to expand...

So I still have to apply the conversion at my own course?


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## jim8flog (Oct 25, 2020)

timd77 said:



			Has anyone come across an app which calculates your course handicap? I know you can do it on the r&a or usga websites, but an app would be handy.
		
Click to expand...

 So you are stood on the first tee where the HI to Slope to Course Rating boards should be located and you want an app!!!

Sometimes I despair at the reliance on computer technology.

Each to his own I suppose.

I presume your phone has a calculator (HI x slope/113)


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			So I still have to apply the conversion at my own course?
		
Click to expand...

Your Handicap Index is course independent. 
Your Course Handicap is course specific.
Your Playing Handicap is course and format specific.

One layer at a time.


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## timd77 (Oct 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What's wrong with the notice on the 1st tee or outside the proshop?
		
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jim8flog said:



			So you are stood on the first tee where the HI to Slope to Course Rating boards should be located and you want an app!!!

Sometimes I despair at the reliance on computer technology.

Each to his own I suppose.

I presume your phone has a calculator (HI x slope/113)
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies guys, glad I asked the straight forward question 👍🏻🙄


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2020)

timd77 said:



			Thanks for the replies guys, glad I asked the straight forward question 👍🏻🙄
		
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It was an acceptable question but right now a lot of people are overreacting and being rude plenty of times 

I have no doubt someone will provide an app to help calculate their multiple layers of handicap 

The overall feeling from many is that this whole thing has been and continues to be a complete mess - it’s a complete waste of time , they got a simple idea and made it far too complicated for the average golfer and they can’t even get it right despite having how many years to get it right 

A World Handicap System were every country does something different


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A World Handicap System were every country does something different
		
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To make it exactly the same for every country was never a claimed objective. Quite the contrary, it was said there would be differences for a few years at least.


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