# Foot on the brake



## ScienceBoy (Jan 7, 2017)

Been a while since I posted a driving rant.

Why do people sit at lights with their foot on the brake? Was the way I was taught.

It's totally fine at any lights or situation that changes quickly, actually it's necessary so ensure a safe and quick manoeuvre.

What I am talking about are obvious stopped traffic or lights known to take a while to change. I was taught to change to handbrake in these situations and always try to remember too.

I've been observing traffic at two points on my commute where the lights take a while to cycle. I've ignored any quick changing situation here.

Probably about 80% of drivers sit for up to a muniute or more with their foot on the brake? Do they need the workout? Sometimes I feel like the only one not doing it.

What's your take on this?


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## Fish (Jan 7, 2017)

Rarely do it in my manual and use the handbrake but always do it in the automatic.


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## fundy (Jan 7, 2017)

quiet day?


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## Jensen (Jan 7, 2017)

Automatic cars


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2017)

Automatic brake is the way forward... or not if it works as it should


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## Imurg (Jan 7, 2017)

Rough guess - people do about 30% of things correctly when they're driving.....
Drivers are lazy and too busy with the myriad things that exist in modern cars, seemingly designed to take our focus from driving and onto other things.
Something like 80% of drivers don't signal or don't signal correctly at roundabouts.
With no on-going assessment or testing things are never going to change...


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## USER1999 (Jan 7, 2017)

I do it, and i drive an auto. Its just easy. Yep, i could stick it in park, but why bother?


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 7, 2017)

Seriously,don't let it bother you.


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## full_throttle (Jan 7, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			I do it, and i drive an auto. Its just easy. Yep, i could stick it in park, but why bother?
		
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^^^^^


although if I have just got to the lights and know there will be a time between changes I often shift to park


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## USER1999 (Jan 7, 2017)

I also think that if i shift it into park, and put the brake lights out, the numpty behind me will suddenly think we are off, and drive in the back of me. I don't trust other people, they are mainly idiots.


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## Crow (Jan 7, 2017)

My car has auto handbrake but unlike my last car (a VW) it doesn't hold when stationary so if I take my foot off the foot brake it rolls away.

A proper handbrake is in the right and convenient place to use, on the dash requires me to lean out of my seat and then again when I pull away, it just doesn't make for comfortable driving so I hold it on the foot brake.

Give me an old fashioned handbrake any day.


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## guest100718 (Jan 7, 2017)

I do it .  more so since getting and auto.


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## Jon321 (Jan 7, 2017)

I do it. Surely more annoying things on the road than that?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2017)

My car has the stop start system. It tells you on the dash board if you are stationary to long with your foot on the clutch waiting to go ( economy tip). As soon as you put it into neutral and take your foot off the clutch the car cuts out. Lights turn to green, put foot on clutch and engine starts takes 1-2 seconds before you are off. Twice today I had people pipping the horn today for me to move off after a second. ? Impatient or what. Sometimes your damned if you do etc.

however when I got to me uncles estate when driving up a small rd a woman was stopped in her car the middle of the rd. She was blocking the rd, her head was down texting..
After about 10 seconds with my car 15 ft from hers I pipped the horn. She looked at me daggers. What is that all about


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## USER1999 (Jan 7, 2017)

I borrowed a volks with stop start. Useless in North London. In that two seconds it takes to start, someone has cut in in front of you. Its not designed for london traffic.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 7, 2017)

Mine have a hold brake that engages the braking system and so leaves the brake lights on. I don't have my foot on the brake itself, it is designed to work that way.


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## Imurg (Jan 7, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			My car has the stop start system. It tells you on the dash board if you are stationary to long with your foot on the clutch waiting to go ( economy tip). As soon as you put it into neutral and take your foot off the clutch the car cuts out. Lights turn to green, put foot on clutch and engine starts takes 1-2 seconds before you are off. Twice today I had people pipping the horn today for me to move off after a second. ? Impatient or what. Sometimes your damned if you do etc.

however when I got to me uncles estate when driving up a small rd a woman was stopped in her car the middle of the rd. She was blocking the rd, her head was down texting..
After about 10 seconds with my car 15 ft from hers I pipped the horn. She looked at me daggers. What is that all about
		
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I just wonder how well 15 year old stop/start engines will work.........
My last training car had Stop/start - had to disable it.....The kids kept thinking they'd stalled it......&#128513;


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 7, 2017)

I often thought the same until I got an automatic. If I know the lights and it's a longish wait or if stuck at the level crossing I use regularly the I usually go in Park. Otherwise I don't bother. I guess there are much higher numbers of automatcs around these days than 20/30 years ago so it probably just seems a lot worse. Get some sunglasses


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## Golfmmad (Jan 7, 2017)

Most new cars have "Hill start assist", where you keep foot on brake and when pulling away the brake is held on for a few seconds, to stop from rolling back. The latest VW's have "Auto hold", so when car comes to a halt and footbrake is released, the brake is held on automatically, and when ready, just pull away  - a really useful feature.

As mentioned, the "Start stop" facility can be a pain when in lots of traffic. I usually turn it off in heavy traffic as it can be a real nuisance going on and off all the time! It defaults back when engine is restarted.


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## Tarkus1212 (Jan 7, 2017)

I've got stop/start on my automatic BMW, it only works with your foot on the brake.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



			Been a while since I posted a driving rant.

Why do people sit at lights with their foot on the brake? Was the way I was taught.

It's totally fine at any lights or situation that changes quickly, actually it's necessary so ensure a safe and quick manoeuvre.

What I am talking about are obvious stopped traffic or lights known to take a while to change. I was taught to change to handbrake in these situations and always try to remember too.

I've been observing traffic at two points on my commute where the lights take a while to cycle. I've ignored any quick changing situation here.

Probably about 80% of drivers sit for up to a muniute or more with their foot on the brake? Do they need the workout? Sometimes I feel like the only one not doing it.

What's your take on this?
		
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I have a new  auto Golf and it has a system on it that puts auto stop on the brakes
it doesn't have a handbrake .
When you stop the car as soon as it comes to a halt the electronic parking brake comes on if you take your foot of the brake pedal the stop lights stay on unless you put the switch for full parking brake on manually.
its designed like this I don't know why.
also my lad is learning to drive and I constantly tell him to put handbrake on but they are taught not to do this anymore "as long as they are in control of the car."


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## MadAdey (Jan 8, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



			Been a while since I posted a driving rant.

Why do people sit at lights with their foot on the brake? Was the way I was taught.

It's totally fine at any lights or situation that changes quickly, actually it's necessary so ensure a safe and quick manoeuvre.

What I am talking about are obvious stopped traffic or lights known to take a while to change. I was taught to change to handbrake in these situations and always try to remember too.

I've been observing traffic at two points on my commute where the lights take a while to cycle. I've ignored any quick changing situation here.

Probably about 80% of drivers sit for up to a muniute or more with their foot on the brake? Do they need the workout? Sometimes I feel like the only one not doing it.

What's your take on this?
		
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I just push the auto hold button my car and it sits it there even on a hill and then pulls off when I start to accelerate. But previously in my Auto car I sit on the foot brake, far easier that going into park and putting the brake on.


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## mikevet (Jan 8, 2017)

Highway Code says not to sit on the foot brake because of the effect the dazzle/glare has on the vision of the driver behind. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer drivers have any regard for the adverse effect their misuse of any car lights has on other road users ...


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## Imurg (Jan 8, 2017)

mikevet said:



			Highway Code says not to sit on the foot brake because of the effect the dazzle/glare has on the vision of the driver behind. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer drivers have any regard for other road users ...
		
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Fixed that for ya!


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## louise_a (Jan 8, 2017)

I couldn't answer this this morning but having been out I now know that I put the handbrake on when stopped at lights.


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## Andy (Jan 8, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



			Been a while since I posted a driving rant.

Why do people sit at lights with their foot on the brake? Was the way I was taught.

It's totally fine at any lights or situation that changes quickly, actually it's necessary so ensure a safe and quick manoeuvre.

What I am talking about are obvious stopped traffic or lights known to take a while to change. I was taught to change to handbrake in these situations and always try to remember too.

I've been observing traffic at two points on my commute where the lights take a while to cycle. I've ignored any quick changing situation here.

Probably about 80% of drivers sit for up to a muniute or more with their foot on the brake? Do they need the workout? Sometimes I feel like the only one not doing it.

What's your take on this?
		
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You need to get out more!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2017)

mikevet said:



			Highway Code says not to sit on the foot brake because of the effect the dazzle/glare has on the vision of the driver behind. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer drivers have any regard for the adverse effect their misuse of any car lights has on other road users ...
		
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how do VW get round this then as my brake lights stay on when in auto even when I take my foot off the brake pedal.
is it only advisory .


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

One of my pet hates. Especially when it's dark and wet.
3 sets of brake lights blinding you. Why not stick your bloody fog lights on as well you ignorant *****.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			how do VW get round this then as my brake lights stay on when in auto even when I take my foot off the brake pedal
		
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Hate to say it mate, but there is something wrong somewhere. They shouldn't do that.


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## guest100718 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Hate to say it mate, but there is something wrong somewhere. They shouldn't do that.
		
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hate to say it but you don't know much about cars do you.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			hate to say it but you don't know much about cars do you.
		
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Obviously not


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## guest100718 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Obviously not
		
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perhaps swat up before you sell your next VW....


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			perhaps swat up before you sell your next VW....
		
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So you are saying that it's correct that brakes lights stay on even when your foot is not on the brake pedal?
That's the 1st time I've heard that. Be a bit confusing to say the least.
PS I don't sell Volkswagens


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

mikevet said:



			Highway Code says not to sit on the foot brake because of the effect the dazzle/glare has on the vision of the driver behind. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer drivers have any regard for the adverse effect their misuse of any car lights has on other road users ...
		
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I was taught (some time ago) that you should put your handbrake on when stationary for one simple reason.  If you are sitting (in or out of out of gear) with your foot on the brake pedal but don't have the handbrake on - were someone to drive into your rear end there is a good chance your foot will come off the brake pedal and you will shoot forward - either into a car or pedestrian in front - or into the path of crossing or oncoming traffic.


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## Rooter (Jan 9, 2017)

i drive an auto and i keep my foot on the brake at lights etc. cant be arsed to move it to park, as i am not parking, i am just waiting!


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			i drive an auto and i keep my foot on the brake at lights etc. cant be arsed to move it to park, as i am not parking, i am just waiting!
		
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So you are one of the inconsiderate sods


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## Rooter (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			So you are one of the inconsiderate sods
		
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yup. and proud. Does your parts dept sell ultra bright brake lights?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			yup. and proud. Does your parts dept sell ultra bright brake lights?
		
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What about you getting a rear-end shunt though? - as that was the reason I was told to get into the habit of always putting my handbrake on when stationary.  I admit to occasionally holding stopped on the brake pedal - so this reminds me that I must be more mindful.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 9, 2017)

Back in the day one of my part time jobs was driving a breakdown recovery truck that had a roof bar fitted with some powerful rally type lights... When I came up upon someone using rear fog lights unnecessarily I'd give them a full dose of my lights...  Reckon if I was in the same situation nowadays with these brake lights I'd be having me some fun with my roof lights...


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What about you getting a rear-end shunt though? - as that was the reason I was told to get into the habit of always putting my handbrake on when stationary.  I admit to occasionally holding stopped on the brake pedal - so this reminds me that I must be more mindful.
		
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Surely in a rear end shunt, your normal reaction would be to press harder with your foot. In any case, if you do release the brakes at Impact you should in theory lesson damage to your car as it would move rather than absorb the energy from the colliding motor.

I always sit at lights foot on brake pedal, whether in my auto van or manual car. I want the cars behind me to know I am not moving or getting ready to move until Implace my foot on the accelerator.

How about we start a rant on those who drive with dirty or  illegally lettered number plates, that would be worthy of discussion.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Hate to say it mate, but there is something wrong somewhere. They shouldn't do that.
		
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Yes something wrong with your knowledge of modern cars.
its not a coincidence we are discussing this rise in brake lights it's because most modern cars with electronic hand brakes work this way.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How about we start a rant on those who drive with dirty or  illegally lettered number plates, that would be worthy of discussion.
		
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Nah,  Uber drivers, who have quite comfortably taken over the mantle of worst group of road users from WVM's...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Surely in a rear end shunt, your normal reaction would be to press harder with your foot. In any case, if you do release the brakes at Impact you should in theory lesson damage to your car as it would move rather than absorb the energy from the colliding motor.

I always sit at lights foot on brake pedal, whether in my auto van or manual car. I want the cars behind me to know I am not moving or getting ready to move until Implace my foot on the accelerator.

How about we start a rant on those who drive with dirty or  illegally lettered number plates, that would be worthy of discussion.
		
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Depends on the severity and unexpectedness of the shunt - and you will never know about an unexpectedly severe one until it happens.  With handbrake on you don't need to rely upon any expectations you may have in  your ability to react appropriately.


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## BrizoH71 (Jan 9, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			My car has the stop start system. It tells you on the dash board if you are stationary to long with your foot on the clutch waiting to go ( economy tip). As soon as you put it into neutral and take your foot off the clutch the car cuts out. Lights turn to green, put foot on clutch and engine starts takes 1-2 seconds before you are off. Twice today I had people pipping the horn today for me to move off after a second. ? Impatient or what. Sometimes your damned if you do etc.

however when I got to me uncles estate when driving up a small rd a woman was stopped in her car the middle of the rd. She was blocking the rd, her head was down texting..
After about 10 seconds with my car 15 ft from hers I pipped the horn. She looked at me daggers. What is that all about
		
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My car has the same, but I've learned to read the sequence of the lights that I encounter on my daily commute so I know when to re-engage the engine. Altough a delay of 2-3 seconds is hardly life-threatening for those behind when I'm at lights where I don't know the sequence.

Foot on brake really gets on my goat at night, especially when it is wet as the glare off the road can be distracting to the driver of the car behind. 

Folk that drive with fog-lights on when it isn't foggy need a good boot in the proverbials as well...


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## guest100718 (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			yup. and proud. Does your parts dept sell ultra bright brake lights?
		
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Yeah my car has 2 pedals. One for Go and the other for Stop. I use one of these at any one time. When I turn the engine off, something magic stops it from rolling away.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Surely in a rear end shunt, your normal reaction would be to press harder with your foot. *In any case, if you do release the brakes at Impact you should in theory lesson damage to your car as it would move *rather than absorb the energy from the colliding motor.
		
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Straight into the car in front of you in the queue.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			yup. and proud. Does your parts dept sell ultra bright brake lights?
		
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So rather than spend say 1 or 2 seconds putting your vehicle in P and applying your handbrake, you'd rather sit there annoying the person behind you for maybe 30 or 40 seconds with all of your brake lights on?


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes something wrong with your knowledge of modern cars.
		
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I sell (and drive) the new Nissan Qashqai (can't get much more modern than that) which comes with an electronic park brake.
The brake lights do not stay on when I apply it, they only stay on when I have my foot on the brake pedal.
Hence why I thought there was something wrong.
Thank you for your concern, but my knowledge of modern cars has enabled me to earn a comfortable living for the past 30 years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I sell (and drive) the new Nissan Qashqai (can't get much more modern than that) which comes with an electronic park brake.
The brake lights do not stay on when I apply it, they only stay on when I have my foot on the brake pedal.
Hence why I thought there was something wrong.
Thank you for your concern, but my knowledge of modern cars has enabled me to earn a comfortable living for the past 30 years.
		
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I've got one of these also - so modern and so many handy gizmos and functions that I still haven't worked out how everything works   But I do like the car - and my Mrs and daughter love it...


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've got one of these also - so modern and so many handy gizmos and functions that I still haven't worked out how everything works   But I do like the car - and my Mrs and daughter love it...
		
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I bet your brake lights aren't on when you apply the electronic handbrake.....

But of course, what do we know? Apparently we know nothing about modern cars.
Also just asked my service manager if he was aware of ANY cars that have their brake lights permanently on when an electronic parking brake is applied.
He's not aware of any either....so I guess he's as thick as me.


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## Rooter (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What about you getting a rear-end shunt though? - as that was the reason I was told to get into the habit of always putting my handbrake on when stationary.  I admit to occasionally holding stopped on the brake pedal - so this reminds me that I must be more mindful.
		
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Good luck shunting 2 tons of volvo. Of they hit the back of me that hard, then the car is trashed anyway!



Smiffy said:



			So rather than spend say 1 or 2 seconds putting your vehicle in P and applying your handbrake, you'd rather sit there annoying the person behind you for maybe 30 or 40 seconds with all of your brake lights on?
		
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Yup, I'm alright Jack.


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## guest100718 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I bet your brake lights aren't on when you apply the electronic handbrake.....

But of course, what do we know? Apparently we know nothing about modern cars.
Also just asked my service manager if he was aware of ANY cars that have their brake lights permanently on when an electronic parking brake is applied.
He's not aware of any either....so I guess he's as thick as me.
		
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that's not what happens. you best RTFM


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			Good luck shunting 2 tons of volvo. Of they hit the back of me that hard, then the car is trashed anyway!



Yup, I'm alright Jack. 

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Some years ago my wife was sitting at the front of a traffic queue, stationary (handbrake on) at traffic lights in the centre of Bristol.  A truck drove up at some speed in the lane to her right but misjudged the lane width and shunted the rear right of our car.  She was sent spinning forward into the middle of the junction - it was very fortunate that the crossing traffic had only started to pull away or she'd have been sent spinning into the path of very heavy traffic, with my one year old son in the back seat.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			that's not what happens. you best RTFM
		
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Please enlighten me what happens?
You seem to be the expert.
The OP stated that his brake lights are still on when he applies his electronic park brake with his foot *off* the pedal.
I state they don't.
Prove me wrong. Please.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Please enlighten me what happens?
You seem to be the expert.
The OP stated that his brake lights are still on when he applies his electronic park brake with his foot *off* the pedal.
I state they don't.
Prove me wrong. Please.
		
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Rob, we have two Mercs. Both have an electronic hold brake that is applied by pressing the brake pedal whilst stationary. This engages the braking system and applied the brake lights but allows me to take my foot off the pedal. This is only disengaged by pressing the accelerator so even in a shunt it will stay engaged. 
This is a system designed to be used at all times when stationary but not parked. 
Whilst it's not, strictly, a parking brake it is an electronic brake that does what is being described.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

GreiginFife said:



			Rob, we have two Mercs. Both have an electronic hold brake that is applied by pressing the brake pedal whilst stationary. This engages the braking system and applied the brake lights but allows me to take my foot off the pedal. This is only disengaged by pressing the accelerator so even in a shunt it will stay engaged. 
This is a system designed to be used at all times when stationary but not parked. 
Whilst it's not, strictly, a parking brake it is an electronic brake that does what is being described.
		
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Hi mate
 I fully understand what a parking brake/electronic parking brake does.
My "argument" is that applying the electronic park brake on my Qashqai does not leave the brake lights on, unless I am actually sitting in the car with my foot on the brake pedal.
If I am out of the car, the brake lights are not on despite the electronic handbrake/park brake/parking brake (call it what you will) being on.
My service manager is also unaware of any car that has it's brake lights left on unless the driver is actually sitting in the car with their foot on the brake pedal.
But a certain individual is determined to belittle me, despite my clear explanation of what is happening.
Let him prove me wrong


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			Yup, I'm alright Jack. 

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Hate to say it mate but that is a right nobbish attitude.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Hi mate
 I fully understand what a parking brake/electronic parking brake does.
My "argument" is that applying the electronic park brake on my Qashqai does not leave the brake lights on, unless I am actually sitting in the car with my foot on the brake pedal.
If I am out of the car, the brake lights are not on despite the electronic handbrake/park brake/parking brake (call it what you will) being on.
My service manager is also unaware of any car that has it's brake lights left on unless the driver is actually sitting in the car with their foot on the brake pedal.
But a certain individual is determined to belittle me, despite my clear explanation of what is happening.
Let him prove me wrong
		
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Could be he is describing what I am talking about. I can put the hold brake on and step out of the car and my brake lights will stay on (in the A Class anyway not the newer C Class) it's how I check the brake bulbs 
Understand that you get how it works though, you sell cars for a living after all :thup:


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## Rooter (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Hate to say it mate but that is a right nobbish attitude.
		
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you feel that strongly about the car in front having its brakes lights on?! wow, i thought i had problems!!


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Rooter said:



			you feel that strongly about the car in front having its brakes lights on?! wow, i thought i had problems!!
		
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I do when I'm sitting in the dark and rain with god knows how many watts of red light blinding me.
Having got a problem when they come on to warn you that the driver in front is slowing down, that's what they're designed to do.
How would you like it if somebody was driving towards you with their main beams left on?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Straight into the car in front of you in the queue.
		
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Ah but if you had left enough of a gap, as per the Highway Code and common sense, you wouldn't be able to touch the car in front.
in any case, insurance would pass all the blame through to the initial car that caused the contact. Resulting impacts would all ultimately be passed back to that offending motor.


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## londonlewis (Jan 9, 2017)

I only tend to put the handbrake on at night time as it's frustrating sitting behind big red lights at night.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ah but if you had left enough of a gap, as per the Highway Code and common sense, you wouldn't be able to touch the car in front.
in any case, insurance would pass all the blame through to the initial car that caused the contact. Resulting impacts would all ultimately be passed back to that offending motor.

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What gap does the highway code recommend at traffic lights then? Common sense may come into it, but I don't think the highway code lays down any recommendations?
And I guess the guy or lady that you have just gone into the back of because you didn't put your handbrake on would be much happier when you let them know it's all the guy behinds fault anyway
Especially if they were going to be crippled up with a back injury and whiplash.


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2017)

The hand brake only locks the back wheels though. Depending on what hits you, it could lift the rear up a bit, and you effectively have no brakes on. Keep your foot on the brakes  and all the wheels are stopped. Safer in my view.


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## dewsweeper (Jan 9, 2017)

What an enlightening thread.
Learnt a lot about modern parking brakes,very interesting .
Even more about boorish human behaviour !!!


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			The hand brake only locks the back wheels though. Depending on what hits you, it could lift the rear up a bit, and you effectively have no brakes on. Keep your foot on the brakes  and all the wheels are stopped. Safer in my view.
		
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Murph. I can almost guarantee that if you were shunted up the arse with enough force to lift the rear of your car up a bit, your feet wouldn't  be on the brake pedal.


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			What gap does the highway code recommend at traffic lights then? Common sense may come into it, but I don't think the highway code lays down any recommendations?.
		
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We teach "Tyres and Tarmac". Keep the back tyres of the car in front in view plus a bit of tarmac = approximately half a car length or about 2 metres


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			I sell (and drive) the new Nissan Qashqai (can't get much more modern than that) which comes with an electronic park brake.
The brake lights do not stay on when I apply it, they only stay on when I have my foot on the brake pedal.
Hence why I thought there was something wrong.
Thank you for your concern, but my knowledge of modern cars has enabled me to earn a comfortable living for the past 30 years.
		
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you seem to think my car has a problem it's a 66 Golf match with an electronic parking brake.
when I come to a halt at the lights say , as soon as the car comes to a complete stop the auto brake comes on ( green light on dash tells you it's on) .
i can get out of the car walk round and the brake lights are still on!
just because your car doesn't is no reason to think no one else has a different system.
this in my opinion is why we are discussing this topic as most people seem unaware of this including your mec.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			you seem to think my car has a problem it's a 66 Golf match with an electronic parking brake.
when I come to a halt at the lights say , as soon as the car comes to a complete stop the auto brake comes on ( green light on dash tells you it's on) .
i can get out of the car walk round and the brake lights are still on!
just because your car doesn't is no reason to think no one else has a different system.
this in my opinion is why we are discussing this topic as most people seem unaware of this including your mec.
		
Click to expand...

If you read the part you quoted again, I say "Hence why I _*thought *_there was something wrong"
If that's the way your brake lights work then great.
It just seemed strange to me as I've never seen that before so I apologise.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			If you read the part you quoted again, I say "Hence why I _*thought *_there was something wrong"
If that's the way your brake lights work then great.
It just seemed strange to me as I've never seen that before so I apologise.
		
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theres no need to apologise I have not seen it before.
but as you sell cars I was shown how it works by the salesman at Dane VW when I got the car he rode shotgun to show me all the tec.

its got adaptive cruise control you can just steer the car it does the rest .
if the car in front slows to a stop my car will stop behind it , brake on and cut the engine , when car pulls away in front my car starts engine ,brake off and will follow at set distance and speed.

Even with ACC off this might be why the lights stay on I really don't know but a lot of cars have this system now.

i don't use it much as it takes some getting used to
i have worked with machines all my life and don't trust them enough they all go wrong eventually.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ah but if you had left enough of a gap, as per the Highway Code and common sense, you wouldn't be able to touch the car in front.
in any case, insurance would pass all the blame through to the initial car that caused the contact. Resulting impacts would all ultimately be passed back to that offending motor.

Click to expand...

Not sure there is any Highway Code guidance on the distance you leave between your car and one in front when stationary at lights etc.  In any case - not applicable to the incident my wife was involved in.  No car in front.  Even with handbrake on she was sent spinning into the path of traffic.  She was *very * lucky.  Handbrake off - who knows where she'd have ended up.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			Hate to say it mate, but there is something wrong somewhere. They shouldn't do that.
		
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By the way you DID say there was something wrong not you THOUGHT there was


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			By the way you DID say there was something wrong not you THOUGHT there was
		
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As far as I was aware, all parking brakes work along the same way. The fact that the car I have doesn't leave it's brake lights on when it comes on is case in point.
I have spoken to a mate of mine who works for a VW dealership and he confirmed that when the "hill hold assist" comes on, the brake lights do in fact stay on.
But that's not the "parking" brake. Will update when I hear more.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			As far as I was aware, all parking brakes work along the same way. The fact that the car I have doesn't leave it's brake lights on when it comes on is case in point.
I have spoken to a mate of mine who works for a VW dealership and he confirmed that when the "hill hold assist" comes on, the brake lights do in fact stay on.
But that's not the "parking" brake. Will update when I hear more.
		
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 Worse thing on my car is the hill hold assist. Hate it and it appears you can not turn it off. I have been holding cars on the clutch for over 30 years, so don't need any help.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

View attachment 21644


Smiffy said:



			As far as I was aware, all parking brakes work along the same way. The fact that the car I have doesn't leave it's brake lights on when it comes on is case in point.
I have spoken to a mate of mine who works for a VW dealership and he confirmed that when the "hill hold assist" comes on, the brake lights do in fact stay on.
But that's not the "parking" brake. Will update when I hear more.
		
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this is the page from my manual it is called AUTO HOLD and is a function of the parking brake .
it doesn't mention hill assist anywhere.
as this comes on all the time not just on hills.

sorry it's upside down but I could not get it to right.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 9, 2017)

Andy said:



			You need to get out more!
		
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I already knew that 

Reading this tread I'm kind of sorry I brought this up, it was just some observations on a murky morning and dark commute


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## Fish (Jan 9, 2017)

Wow, what a read &#128540;

I'd like to add, that when I'm sat in my car I am only interested in the fact that I am in control of it, what's lit up, flashing or whirling outside of it I don't give a hoot, if that affects anyone else then they are too close imo &#128540;


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## dewsweeper (Jan 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			Wow, what a read &#128540;

I'd like to add, that when I'm sat in my car I am only interested in the fact that I am in control of it, what's lit up, flashing or whirling outside of it I don't give a hoot, if that affects anyone else then they are too close imo &#128540;
		
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Even on a rainy evening in  slow ,crawling traffic constantly coming to a halt every few yards?
Such a hard job to reach out and operate the hand brake!
Too many drivers cocooned in their modern ,comfortable cars completely oblivious to other road users.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			Wow, what a read &#128540;

I'd like to add, that when I'm sat in my car I am only interested in the fact that I am in control of it, what's lit up, flashing or whirling outside of it I don't give a hoot, if that affects anyone else then they are too close imo &#128540;
		
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You may be - but you have no control over what drivers and pedestrians around you might do - and what they do of course might well affect you.  And so you *should* be interested in, or at least attentive to, what others are doing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2017)

Blimey that was a struggle to read 

I mainly drive hopefully using common sense. If I'm going to be stopped for a minute then I'll apply the handbrake , if it's possibly for seconds then I'll use the brake. Just use judgement and common sense ( rare on the roads I would suggest )


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## Fish (Jan 9, 2017)

dewsweeper said:



			Even on a rainy evening in  slow ,crawling traffic constantly coming to a halt every few yards?
Such a hard job to reach out and operate the hand brake!
Too many drivers cocooned in their modern ,comfortable cars completely oblivious to other road users.
		
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Yes, it's too much of a pain to constantly reach for my hand/foot brake (auto) in such conditions, I will sit on my brake pedal thank you. 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You may be - but you have no control over what drivers and pedestrians around you might do - and what they do of course might well affect you.  And so you *should* be interested in, or at least attentive to, what others are doing.
		
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Don't tell me what I should do!  I'm fully aware of what's going on around me and more importantly in front of me, my brake lights are to warn people I'm slowing or stopping or indeed at a full stop, if someone ignores my brake lights there's not a great deal I can do about it, even if I saw them coming up quickly from behind!


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## dewsweeper (Jan 9, 2017)

Fish,
I really hope ,without much expectation,that you have more consideration on the golf course,
I am afraid you seem completely oblivious to the other people around you.


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## Fish (Jan 9, 2017)

dewsweeper said:



			Fish,
*I really hope ,without much expectation,that you have more consideration on the golf course,*
I am afraid you seem completely oblivious to the other people around you.
		
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What the hell is how I crawl amongst traffic got to do with playing golf!!

This forum has brought all the wombats out tonight!!


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## dewsweeper (Jan 9, 2017)

Tossers.
Yes indeed.
Selfishness is a human trait and it would be fair to assume it would cover all aspects of your life,hence a golfing  reference.
EYG


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## TonyN (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Ah but if you had left enough of a gap, as per the Highway Code and common sense, you wouldn't be able to touch the car in front.
in any case, insurance would pass all the blame through to the initial car that caused the contact. Resulting impacts would all ultimately be passed back to that offending motor.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Common practice is to claim off the person who went into the back of you, regardless of who was at fault. It would take an outstanding legal rep to argue that one. No insurance company is going to accept more blame than they absolutely have to. Its the easiest argument to make that the vehicle in front should have left a sufficient gap from the car in front even though their client was initially at fault. That's not to say it can't be done though. And best of luck to anyone making that argument. It would be worth a go. 

I have a modern vehicle with auto foot brake. My lights don't stay on when I release the foot brake and the brake stays engaged. And I have never seen or heard of any others that do. If they do, it is uncommon. 
Sadly, the design of auto vehicles means that its much more convenient to sit stationary with your foot on the brake pedal. 

Drivers leaving their foot  on the brake only annoys me when I'm working, but that's usually because I can't see their eyes in the rear view mirror.

There are pro's and cons for both though. In my experience... 

If your sat stationary at a set of lights or a junction, engage the handbrake, it makes for a safer start, especially with manual handbrakes. Auto's don't make much of a difference.
Anyone who thinks you will press down harder on the foot brake if your rear ended, you're mistaken. Almost every RTC I attend that involves more than one vehicle rear end shunting, is because the car that was hit first was in gear with no handbrake on. The momentum of the car moves faster than your body can even react to. (unless you see it coming, thats a different storey. Not many do though) 
Guaranteed, 9/10 people will only hit the brake once they are stationary again. And if the car is in gear, your left foot will come up off the clutch and the car will start to pull off, there will be enough momentum to prevent it stalling, in fact it will accelerate just to add to your misery and stall when its embedded in the boot in front. 

With the car in neutral and the hand brake applied, the car will travel the least distance if it's rear ended. Its not just coincidence it's how we are taught.

The exception I would advise though and one I always employ, is when sat stationary on a fast road, I leave my foot on the brake to show all of the vehicles behind that I am stationary waiting to turn. Far too many drivers now have their eyes in their lap texting and don't notice the vehicle in front has stopped waiting to turn until its too late. And one thing I will NEVER do, is turn my wheels towards the junction whilst I wait. If you are rear ended, your car is going to steer into oncoming traffic. Always point the wheels into the safe space until you begin your manoeuvre.


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## dewsweeper (Jan 9, 2017)

Good post,


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## Golfmmad (Jan 9, 2017)

richart said:



			Worse thing on my car is the hill hold assist. Hate it and it appears you can not turn it off. I have been holding cars on the clutch for over 30 years, so don't need any help.

Click to expand...

If your car is modern enough to have "Hill start assist", you should be able to go into the "Menu" and turn it off.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2017)

Golfmmad said:



			If your car is modern enough to have "Hill start assist", you should be able to go into the "Menu" and turn it off.
		
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 I went on a forum for the car, and everyone said it couldn't be turned off. Will check further.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 9, 2017)

TonyN said:



			Not necessarily. Common practice is to claim off the person who went into the back of you, regardless of who was at fault. It would take an outstanding legal rep to argue that one. No insurance company is going to accept more blame than they absolutely have to. Its the easiest argument to make that the vehicle in front should have left a sufficient gap from the car in front even though their client was initially at fault. That's not to say it can't be done though. And best of luck to anyone making that argument. It would be worth a go.
		
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Having been the front car of a 4 car shunt where the offending car went into the car (stationary) in front of him, writing his off, the car he initially hit as well as severly damaging the car in front of that that was then pushed into me, I can testify that although yes its normal practice to claim off the veihicle that goes into the back of you (especially when youre stationary) the insurance companies will pass the costs down the line so in the end you are no fault, and the the car that was the instigator or the whole event is the one that carries the can. The guy that caused mine ended up having all 4 cars costs against his poilicy, which was 2 write offs (1 being his own) plus 2 repairs.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 9, 2017)

richart said:



			I went on a forum for the car, and everyone said it couldn't be turned off. Will check further.
		
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Why would you want to though?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

TonyN said:



			Not necessarily. Common practice is to claim off the person who went into the back of you, regardless of who was at fault. It would take an outstanding legal rep to argue that one. No insurance company is going to accept more blame than they absolutely have to. Its the easiest argument to make that the vehicle in front should have left a sufficient gap from the car in front even though their client was initially at fault. That's not to say it can't be done though. And best of luck to anyone making that argument. It would be worth a go. 

I have a modern vehicle with auto foot brake. My lights don't stay on when I release the foot brake and the brake stays engaged. And I have never seen or heard of any others that do. If they do, it is uncommon. 
Sadly, the design of auto vehicles means that its much more convenient to sit stationary with your foot on the brake pedal. 

Drivers leaving their foot  on the brake only annoys me when I'm working, but that's usually because I can't see their eyes in the rear view mirror.

There are pro's and cons for both though. In my experience... 

If your sat stationary at a set of lights or a junction, engage the handbrake, it makes for a safer start, especially with manual handbrakes. Auto's don't make much of a difference.
Anyone who thinks you will press down harder on the foot brake if your rear ended, you're mistaken. Almost every RTC I attend that involves more than one vehicle rear end shunting, is because the car that was hit first was in gear with no handbrake on. The momentum of the car moves faster than your body can even react to. (unless you see it coming, thats a different storey. Not many do though) 
Guaranteed, 9/10 people will only hit the brake once they are stationary again. And if the car is in gear, your left foot will come up off the clutch and the car will start to pull off, there will be enough momentum to prevent it stalling, in fact it will accelerate just to add to your misery and stall when its embedded in the boot in front. 

With the car in neutral and the hand brake applied, the car will travel the least distance if it's rear ended. Its not just coincidence it's how we are taught.

The exception I would advise though and one I always employ, is when sat stationary on a fast road, I leave my foot on the brake to show all of the vehicles behind that I am stationary waiting to turn. Far too many drivers now have their eyes in their lap texting and don't notice the vehicle in front has stopped waiting to turn until its too late. And one thing I will NEVER do, is turn my wheels towards the junction whilst I wait. If you are rear ended, your car is going to steer into oncoming traffic. Always point the wheels into the safe space until you begin your manoeuvre.
		
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My VW golf lights stay on when the auto brake is on foot off pedals , I can see them in the busses or when I back into my drive.
next door neighbors golf is the same so don't think it's a fault.
I can't believe only VW and Mercedies have this system .
its getting serviced soon so will ask the technician when I am there.


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## richart (Jan 9, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why would you want to though?
		
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 Because I can't stand it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 9, 2017)

richart said:



			Because I can't stand it.

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mine has a button on centre console you can just turn it off.


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2017)

richart said:



			I went on a forum for the car, and everyone said it couldn't be turned off. Will check further.
		
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As far as I am aware, you cannot turn off hill start assist on your car Rich.
I have it on my Qashqai, and despite a "menu system" that reads like a check list for a NASA launch, there is nowhere in there that enables me to do so.
My friend from VW has confirmed that some of the cars in the VW range have AUTO HOLD, which is not the same as the system used on my Qashqai, or of any other electronic parking brake that I have heard of. It's certainly a new one on me. And yes, the brake lights are meant to stay on. But as I say, this is not the same system as a dedicated electronic parking brake, which has basically replaced the old fashioned, familiar type of manual handbrake. My Qashqai also has hill start assist, and for all I know the brakes lights may stay on when this comes into play. I've never noticed to be honest, but I do know that they don't stay on when I apply my electronic handbrake/parking brake call it what you will.
As for when I'm sitting in heavy traffic or waiting at traffic lights I too will use my common sense (yes I have some).
If the lights are turning red as I approach, and I know that I am likely to be sitting stationary for a minute or so, I will employ the use of my handbrake. Same with a level crossing. If the barriers are just going down, I apply my handbrake, again because I know that I am going to be sitting there for a while.
I do this all the time, but am more aware of the situation during the hours of darkness/rain.
It's not so bad for the driver behind when it's daylight, but in the dark and the wet, while you are cocooned in your air conditioned tin box, oblivious to the world around you with your foot on your footbrake, take a look through your rear view mirror at the person sitting in the car behind you. They will be lit up like a Christmas tree, courtesy of your bright red brake lights. 3 times more lit up than if you had your rear fog light on (because most modern cars only have one of those, whereas they have 3 or more brake lights of the same wattage).
I put my handbrake on out of common courtesy to the person sitting behind, because I know how it annoys me.
To get annoyed, or to take offence because somebody is pointing this common courtesy out to you says a lot about your general attitude to motoring. Sorry.


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## chrisd (Jan 10, 2017)

I do pretty much what you do Smiffy but find when I'm behind someone who's brake lights are on at traffic lights it's invariably a 'Chelsea Tractor' so it's like having Christmas tree lights dangling across my windscreen!


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 10, 2017)

richart said:



			Because I can't stand it.

Click to expand...

Fair enough
Unless its in the user handbook, I would suggest though that since it's probably there because of the drive for greater safety aspects, disabling it might cause a problem with your insurance in the event of an accident.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 10, 2017)

Your mate at VW has confirmed that the lights on my golf stay on when in Auto Hold but did he say why ?
it does seem a very inconsiderate system to fit and actively tell customers this is how it works .
but believe me in the handbook it says and I quote " When the driver pulls away, the Auto Hold function releases the electronic parking brake again, The green indicator lamp on the instrument cluster will go out and the vehicle will start to move." End quote !
so clearly this is part of the electronic brake system.


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your mate at VW has confirmed that the lights on my golf stay on when in Auto Hold but did he say why ?
		
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No mate, just that that's the way their supposed to work!
Looking at the bigger picture, most (if not ALL) of the bigger manufacturers are working on the fully autonomous car, something we will see appearing in ever increasing numbers over the next few years.
Nissan themselves have a fully autonomous Qashqia planned for 2018, with a "watered down" version possibly coming out later this year.
I can only assume that things like the brakes on your VW are being used as a "test bed" for when that day finally arrives


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 10, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			No mate, just that that's the way their supposed to work!
Looking at the bigger picture, most (if not ALL) of the bigger manufacturers are working on the fully autonomous car, something we will see appearing in ever increasing numbers over the next few years.
Nissan themselves have a fully autonomous Qashqia planned for 2018, with a "watered down" version possibly coming out later this year.
I can only assume that things like the brakes on your VW are being used as a "test bed" for when that day finally arrives
		
Click to expand...

Thats interesting because if there is no driver you can't blind him with your brake lights.
But until that day this seems to go against most people's idea of good driving etiquette.
But most etiquette in driving has gone these days anyway the standard has plummeted in my opinion.

Thanks for the info you learn something everyday.


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## Smiffy (Jan 10, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thats interesting because if there is no driver you can't blind him with your brake lights.
		
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There will still be somebody sitting in the drivers seat mate, but he won't have to do much.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Has anyone asked in the development meetings one very simple question. "Is there an appetite for driverless cars?" Mfrs are ploughing in to these but I don't hear motorists asking for them. All very clever but not so clever if not enough people want to buy them.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has anyone asked in the development meetings one very simple question. "Is there an appetite for driverless cars?" Mfrs are ploughing in to these but I don't hear motorists asking for them. All very clever but not so clever if not enough people want to buy them.
		
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Not sure that's not a reasons not to make something. How many customers probably "wanted" a smartphone or a touchscreen laptop or tablet 10 years ago. Manufacturers are becoming more adept at creating demand that no one even realised existed.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

In this case we already have cars. They are not a new product. They seem to be ploughing a lot of money into something that I'm not sure has a viable market yet or in the forseeable future. I've no doubt they will come in but early developers are going to lose a lot of money.


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## guest100718 (Jan 10, 2017)

Ide love a car I that I could switch to driveless mode.


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## chrisd (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In this case we already have cars. They are not a new product. They seem to be ploughing a lot of money into something that I'm not sure has a viable market yet or in the forseeable future. I've no doubt they will come in but early developers are going to lose a lot of money.
		
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But when computers came out we had them, but I'd rather have had a 10" tablet like I do now


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In this case we already have cars. They are not a new product. They seem to be ploughing a lot of money into something that I'm not sure has a viable market yet or in the forseeable future. I've no doubt they will come in but early developers are going to lose a lot of money.
		
Click to expand...

We already had phones, we already had TVs and they convinced us we needed HD, Then 3D, then 4K... Or hundreds of channels. Products evolve. I worked for an organisation that designed products that people would buy and use, it wasn't based on ANY market research that said there was demand for them. Creating the product created the demand. It wasn't anything new either, just an evolution on something that was widely used every day by billions of people.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2017)

Manufacturers want auto-driving cars because they are in control of it maintenance and costs; so as more and more cars are bought on finance deals they can charge by the mile.

Governments like auto-driving cars because they can increase road capacity, reduce accidents/injuries, reduce road policing, enable monitoring and crime prevention plus it enable tax/charges for road use.

Insurance companies like auto-driving cars because they can still charge high premiums with less risk, reduce their overheads on assessing whose to blame, monitor your driving and how many miles you do and when so they can charge accordingly.

As for you and me we'll just have to suck up the additional costs: however it'll take at least 20 -25 years before virtually all of the car population will be equipped with robotic/auto-driving capabilities.

Big brother's not only watching you - he's on his way to being in-control.


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## Golfmmad (Jan 10, 2017)

richart said:



			I went on a forum for the car, and everyone said it couldn't be turned off. Will check further.
		
Click to expand...

What car do you have Richard, and is it manual or automatic?

Mine is a manual Fiesta and can definitely be turned off, although not on an automatic.

I just have to go into menu - vehicle settings - and switch off.

It really is a useful feature and couldn't be easier to use, plus, it will not be causing extra wear on the clutch.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, you lot are the first people I have come across that are positive about driverless cars. It will be interesting to see how they develop.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well, you lot are the first people I have come across that are positive about driverless cars. It will be interesting to see how they develop.
		
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Sorry my Lord, I misrepresented myself there. Not in favour at all, I love driving and would never want the car to do it for me. 
Only pointing it that these days people don't know what they really want until the manufacturers make the things we didn't know we wanted.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2017)

Ha ha. I see where you are coming from though.


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## richart (Jan 10, 2017)

Golfmmad said:



			What car do you have Richard, and is it manual or automatic?

Mine is a manual Fiesta and can definitely be turned off, although not on an automatic.

I just have to go into menu - vehicle settings - and switch off.

It really is a useful feature and couldn't be easier to use, plus, it will not be causing extra wear on the clutch.
		
Click to expand...

Smiffy has checked for me, and it can not be turned off. My drive is on a steepish hill, and when I back out of the garage, and down the drive, the hill assist comes on just as I am about to move forward to turn. It is as if it knows the exact moment to come on when I least expect it.:angry:


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 10, 2017)

GreiginFife said:



			Sorry my Lord, I misrepresented myself there. Not in favour at all, I love driving and would never want the car to do it for me. 
Only pointing it that these days people don't know what they really want until the manufacturers make the things we didn't know we wanted.
		
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if I had a Â£200k Ferrari or McLaren I would want to drive it myself .
I have Adaptive cruise control on mine all you have to do is steer it .
It is very unnerving and I don't trust it.
Machines go wrong all the time.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			if I had a Â£200k Ferrari or McLaren I would want to drive it myself .
I have Adaptive cruise control on mine all you have to do is steer it .
It is very unnerving and I don't trust it.
Machines go wrong all the time.
		
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I only have the enrty level C Class AMG, the C43 but its still great fun. Would hate having a computer take all the control away from me.


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## TonyN (Jan 10, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Having been the front car of a 4 car shunt where the offending car went into the car (stationary) in front of him, writing his off, the car he initially hit as well as severly damaging the car in front of that that was then pushed into me, I can testify that although yes its normal practice to claim off the veihicle that goes into the back of you (especially when youre stationary) the insurance companies will pass the costs down the line so in the end you are no fault, and the the car that was the instigator or the whole event is the one that carries the can. The guy that caused mine ended up having all 4 cars costs against his poilicy, which was 2 write offs (1 being his own) plus 2 repairs.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a good news storey. Be great if it was the norm!


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## Smiffy (Jan 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Well, you lot are the first people I have come across that are positive about driverless cars. It will be interesting to see how they develop.
		
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We have a new Micra being launched in March. Lovely looking car, not your typical Micra at all, and a big departure from the current pile of poo!
A lot of our cars now have "lane departure warning" which if switched on emits a loud(ish) beep if you happen to go over white lines without indicating. This can be switched off by the way, otherwise it would drive you mad around town or if you were travelling down a very narrow, twisting road. But it could save your life in certain situations, of that I have no doubt. So this is good technology. Like I say, it can be switched off, but if left on it won't go off if you are indicating.
The new Micra has "improved" on this even further...apparently, if the lane assist goes off, not only will it bleep at you, but it will also make small adjustments to the steering to put you back within the white lines.
The new car isn't launched yet, so I've yet to see this in action, but it sounds a very good idea.
Lane departure warning _*could*_ have saved my life (and that of my daughters) a couple of years ago on our way back from holiday in France. I was driving back to Calais and tiredness was creeping up on me. Like an idiot, I carried on driving, my daughter was asleep in the passenger seat. Suddenly I was alerted by the bleeping of the lane departure warning, so I pulled in at the next available service area for a coffee, and a stretch of the legs. My friend, who had been following in his car, confirmed that I had been veering towards the hard shoulder and he wondered what the hell I had been up to. I had dozed off. I have no excuse, it was stupid of me for continuing to drive in that state. God knows how I could have lived with myself afterwards had something happened with my daughter in the car.
Very recently a friend of mine has written his car off because he fell asleep at the wheel while driving back from holiday. Luckily he didn't hit anybody else, he went off the road and hit a tree. He is fine, but has sworn that the next car he buys will have lane departure warning. Not all new technology is a bad thing, and car manufacturers need to be applauded for introducing some things we didn't even know we needed.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2017)

Smiffy - I drive a Volvo and that has all sorts of technological gubbins that will make the world a safer place, well for drivers and pedestrians anyway. Some of the options boxes I ticked, some I didn't, some were standard. Volvo are going for this advancement through stealth so that one day Volvo drivers will suddenly realise that most of the driver aids they have are only one step below driverless cars. 

Massive progress has been made to make driving safer and I applaud that. I can see the clear safety implications and ability to move larger volumes of cars around with driverless cars but I don't see yet the public wanting to make that extra leap. In evolutionary terms some mfrs are looking to jump a couple of steps rather than evolve in a way that people will accept. In my eyes those making the jump will burn, the leap is just too big. I can see driverless being the future but we need to make baby steps to get there.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2017)

I like the idea of driverless cars, i could sit in the back, and be driven home from the pub.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			We have a new Micra being launched in March. Lovely looking car, not your typical Micra at all, and a big departure from the current pile of poo!
A lot of our cars now have "lane departure warning" which if switched on emits a loud(ish) beep if you happen to go over white lines without indicating. This can be switched off by the way, otherwise it would drive you mad around town or if you were travelling down a very narrow, twisting road. But it could save your life in certain situations, of that I have no doubt. So this is good technology. Like I say, it can be switched off, but if left on it won't go off if you are indicating.
The new Micra has "improved" on this even further...apparently, if the lane assist goes off, not only will it bleep at you, but it will also make small adjustments to the steering to put you back within the white lines.
The new car isn't launched yet, so I've yet to see this in action, but it sounds a very good idea.
Lane departure warning _*could*_ have saved my life (and that of my daughters) a couple of years ago on our way back from holiday in France. I was driving back to Calais and tiredness was creeping up on me. Like an idiot, I carried on driving, my daughter was asleep in the passenger seat. Suddenly I was alerted by the bleeping of the lane departure warning, so I pulled in at the next available service area for a coffee, and a stretch of the legs. My friend, who had been following in his car, confirmed that I had been veering towards the hard shoulder and he wondered what the hell I had been up to. I had dozed off. I have no excuse, it was stupid of me for continuing to drive in that state. God knows how I could have lived with myself afterwards had something happened with my daughter in the car.
Very recently a friend of mine has written his car off because he fell asleep at the wheel while driving back from holiday. Luckily he didn't hit anybody else, he went off the road and hit a tree. He is fine, but has sworn that the next car he buys will have lane departure warning. Not all new technology is a bad thing, and car manufacturers need to be applauded for introducing some things we didn't even know we needed.
		
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I quite like the lane detector warning but have it switched off in town driving.  I also like the sensor that warns me if it detects that I am closing on the vehicle in front too quickly.


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## Region3 (Jan 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			The new Micra has "improved" on this even further...apparently, if the lane assist goes off, not only will it bleep at you, but it will also make small adjustments to the steering to put you back within the white lines.
		
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Does the steering 'hint' at you to get back in the lane, or actually force you to?

Just wondering what it would do if you try to swerve to miss something in the road.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I quite like the lane detector warning but have it switched off in town driving.  I also like the sensor that warns me if it detects that I am closing on the vehicle in front too quickly.
		
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my car has a collision warning if you get to close to the car in front.

on a recent trip up the M62 a car joined the motorway and jumped two lanes he cut me up and my car detected this and slammed the brakes on.

although I seen him and had lifted off he was traveling faster and would have just pulled away from me, but the brakes in my car had slowed me down so much that it put me in danger from traffic behind me catching up rapidly.

there is a place for all this technology but when some cars have it and some don't there is the obvious flaw HUMANS.

The first thing they should sort with technology is stopping drivers using phones.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			I like the idea of driverless cars, i could sit in the back, and be driven home from the pub.
		
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How does the law see that as you would still be in charge of the vehicle if alone.
The law would have to change


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I quite like the lane detector warning but have it switched off in town driving.  I also like the sensor that warns me if it detects that I am closing on the vehicle in front too quickly.
		
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Arnt they called eyes.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			How does the law see that as you would still be in charge of the vehicle if alone.
The law would have to change
		
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Sure, but if the whole point of driverless cars is that they are safer, then having the driver sat away from any controls has to be a good thing, surely?

If the driver can influence, or alter what the car does, it ceases to be self driving, and must also cease to be as safe.

Google or who ever would be responsible for the car, and me sat in the back, and what ever happens to us, or there is no point.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Sure, but if the whole point of driverless cars is that they are safer, then having the driver sat away from any controls has to be a good thing, surely?

If the driver can influence, or alter what the car does, it ceases to be self driving, and must also cease to be as safe.

Google or who ever would be responsible for the car, and me sat in the back, and what ever happens to us, or there is no point.
		
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Totally agree but the law would still have to change I think any lawyers out there.
I think it's just me I don't like the idea of a robot car.
i would just go to a closer pub.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

Smiffy said:



			As far as I am aware, you cannot turn off hill start assist on your car Rich.
I have it on my Qashqai, and despite a "menu system" that reads like a check list for a NASA launch, there is nowhere in there that enables me to do so.
My friend from VW has confirmed that some of the cars in the VW range have AUTO HOLD, which is not the same as the system used on my Qashqai, or of any other electronic parking brake that I have heard of. It's certainly a new one on me. And yes, the brake lights are meant to stay on. But as I say, this is not the same system as a dedicated electronic parking brake, which has basically replaced the old fashioned, familiar type of manual handbrake. My Qashqai also has hill start assist, and for all I know the brakes lights may stay on when this comes into play. I've never noticed to be honest, but I do know that they don't stay on when I apply my electronic handbrake/parking brake call it what you will.
As for when I'm sitting in heavy traffic or waiting at traffic lights I too will use my common sense (yes I have some).
If the lights are turning red as I approach, and I know that I am likely to be sitting stationary for a minute or so, I will employ the use of my handbrake. Same with a level crossing. If the barriers are just going down, I apply my handbrake, again because I know that I am going to be sitting there for a while.
I do this all the time, but am more aware of the situation during the hours of darkness/rain.
It's not so bad for the driver behind when it's daylight, but in the dark and the wet, while you are cocooned in your air conditioned tin box, oblivious to the world around you with your foot on your footbrake, take a look through your rear view mirror at the person sitting in the car behind you. They will be lit up like a Christmas tree, courtesy of your bright red brake lights. 3 times more lit up than if you had your rear fog light on (because most modern cars only have one of those, whereas they have 3 or more brake lights of the same wattage).
I put my handbrake on out of common courtesy to the person sitting behind, because I know how it annoys me.
To get annoyed, or to take offence because somebody is pointing this common courtesy out to you says a lot about your general attitude to motoring. Sorry.
		
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Just found out of VW technical guy the Auto Hold function works by holding the pressure in the braking system even when you take your foot of the pedal.
so as the system is pressurised the lights stay on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2017)

clubchamp98 said:



			Arnt they called eyes.
		
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Don't many of us use range finders on the golf course?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't many of us use range finders on the golf course?
		
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what do u use to look at the range finder.

my point was technology is making us lazy you still need to drive the car.
The less you have to do in a car the more you lose your concentration that's what causes most crashes.


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## Smiffy (Jan 11, 2017)

Region3 said:



			Does the steering 'hint' at you to get back in the lane, or actually force you to?

Just wondering what it would do if you try to swerve to miss something in the road.
		
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Haven't tried it yet Gary so can't comment to be honest. Brochure says it assists but by how much I don't know


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 11, 2017)

Be careful what you wish forâ€¦â€¦.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-recorded-999-call-ashe-tells-operator-cars/


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 11, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Having been the front car of a 4 car shunt where the offending car went into the car (stationary) in front of him, writing his off, the car he initially hit as well as severly damaging the car in front of that that was then pushed into me, I can testify that although yes its normal practice to claim off the veihicle that goes into the back of you (especially when youre stationary) the insurance companies will pass the costs down the line so in the end you are no fault, and the the car that was the instigator or the whole event is the one that carries the can. The guy that caused mine ended up having all 4 cars costs against his poilicy, which was 2 write offs (1 being his own) plus 2 repairs.
		
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TonyN said:



			Thats a good news storey. Be great if it was the norm!
		
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I think you'll find it is.


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## TonyN (Jan 11, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think you'll find it is.
		
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No. I have found its not! Hence my post. But cheers for the input.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 11, 2017)

TonyN said:



			No. I have found its not! Hence my post. But cheers for the input.
		
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It was in my case when a "paper hat" in a Merc on the M42 ran into the back of my car shunting it into the car in front of mine.

His and mine written off and the front vehicle suffered major damage. All recovered from the Merc's insurers.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 11, 2017)

TonyN said:



			No. I have found its not! Hence my post. But cheers for the input.
		
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Perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain why it isn't the norm then, as I'm struggling to think of a reason why, in the circumstances provided, it would be down to anyone other than the tail end charlie?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 11, 2017)

TonyN said:



			No. I have found its not! Hence my post. But cheers for the input.
		
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"Proximate cause", as my wife who works in car insurance says, it's normal practice


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