# Hillsborough Inquest



## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

The jury's verdict is currently being delivered

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...disaster-inquests-verdicts-delivered-11240268


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 26, 2016)




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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

The 96 were unlawfully killed. Justice at long last.


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## Piece (Apr 26, 2016)

Very happy for the families involved. Justice served.


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## drewster (Apr 26, 2016)

Hallelujah, justice at last.


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## Jack_bfc (Apr 26, 2016)

Im not sure it changes anything.. Or it wouldnt if it had been a relative of mine...

All football fans of that era new exactly what happened and didn't need 27 years to prove it....


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

Jack_bfc said:



			Im not sure it changes anything.. Or it wouldnt if it had been a relative of mine...

All football fans of that era new exactly what happened and didn't need 27 years to prove it....
		
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As said above , a real tradegy but , at risk of abuse , surely the fans should be culpable of some , and i use the term with trepidation ,  blame for the behavior outside after all the kick off time was known so why not make sure your there in time ?
However my heart goes out to the innocents caught up in this terrible event.


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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			As said above , a real tradegy but , at risk of abuse , surely the fans should be culpable of some , and i use the term with trepidation ,  blame for the behavior outside after all the kick off time was known so why not make sure your there in time ?
However my heart goes out to the innocents caught up in this terrible event.
		
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You obviously haven't got a clue about this, go and do some reading. Here's something to start with from the court today:

7) Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?â€

*The jury answered NO.*


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

Berger said:



			You obviously haven't got a clue about this, go and do some reading. Here's something to start with from the court today:

7) Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?â€

*The jury answered NO.*

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Really ? At the time i lived in a terraced house next to the ground , We had supporters in our house ringing home, so please do not tell me to go read .That day was a class 1 screw up by all sides , and i repeat all sides .


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

Jack_bfc said:



			Im not sure it changes anything.. Or it wouldnt if it had been a relative of mine...
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I ink it changes things, in as much as the wider world, many of whom see football fans as hooigans and scum, now know, beyond any doubt, that they were never to blame and the authorities were to blame and the shameful cover up which followed was so very wrong

I'm glad, as a football fan, that the fans are now finally, totally exonerated


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 26, 2016)

This thread is emotive and has the ability to turn bad, so please everyone watch what you post and be diplomatic.


Thank you


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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			Really ? At the time i lived in a terraced house next to the ground , We had supporters in our house ringing home, so please do not tell me to go read .That day was a class 1 screw up by all sides , and i repeat all sides .
		
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This Inquest has lasted two years with no stone left unturned including the possibility that the arrival time of supporters had an impact on what actually happened. Today the jury unanimously agreed that the behaviour of the supporters did not cause or contribute to the events at Hillsborough. 

Why, on today of all days, would you want to continue pushing the idea that supporters were to blame?


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## garyinderry (Apr 26, 2016)

Shocking that it has taken nearly all my life for this to come out.


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

Berger said:



			This Inquest has lasted two years with no stone left unturned including the possibility that the arrival time of supporters had an impact on what actually happened. Today the jury unanimously agreed that the behaviour of the supporters did not cause or contribute to the events at Hillsborough. 

Why, on today of all days, would you want to continue pushing the idea that supporters were to blame?
		
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I am not saying they are to solely to  blame i am just saying everyone had a part to play .
You seem intent on confrontation so this will be my last word


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## Neilds (Apr 26, 2016)

I have every sympathy for everyone involved and agree that the cover up by the police was shameful - and I say this as someone whose father was involved in policing a number of semi-finals at Hillsborough (not at the ground on the day). But I feel that all of the inquests, including this one, have delivered flawed verdicts in putting the blame wholly on one side or the other.  In my opinion, and I am entitled to have one, the fans were partly to blamefor the issues leading up to the tragedy and trying to lay the whole blame on the police and Sheffield Wednesday is not correct.  It is a well known fact that a number of fans, even today, spend time in the bars around grounds and arrive late, pushing past you to get to there seats and then wanting to be with their mates at those grounds that do not have allocated seating for away matches (probably just lower leagues like I am used to).  it was these type of fans that contributed to the events - in my opinion


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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			I am not saying they are to solely to  blame i am just saying everyone had a part to play .
You seem intent on confrontation so this will be my last word
		
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I am not intent on confrontation but for the last 27 years the families of those who died and the people who survived have fought to clear their name from any wrongdoing. And while a lot of people have come to recognise in recent years that the fans were not to blame some people still believed it was the fans fault. 

The verdict today has completely exonerated those fans and has finally given those families justice after 27 long years. To still say the fans were to blame in some part, is a slap in the face to those people and in my opinion completely ignorant of the situation.


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## BoadieBroadus (Apr 26, 2016)

only half the wrong has been dealt with today. those responsible for the cover up and furthering the smears that were attached to the victims should face responsibility for what they did.


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## Beezerk (Apr 26, 2016)

Berger said:



			I am not intent on confrontation but for the last 27 years the families of those who died and the people who survived have fought to clear their name from any wrongdoing. And while a lot of people have come to recognise in recent years that the fans were not to blame some people still believed it was the fans fault. 

The verdict today has completely exonerated those fans and has finally given those families justice after 27 long years. To still say the fans were to blame in some part, is a slap in the face to those people and in my opinion completely ignorant of the situation.
		
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By "those fans" do you mean every fan who was at the ground that day or just those who died?


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## Berger (Apr 26, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			By "those fans" do you mean every fan who was at the ground that day or just those who died?
		
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All of them. The question the jury was asked was in reference to the "behaviour on the part of the football supporters".


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

Neilds said:



			I have every sympathy for everyone involved and agree that the cover up by the police was shameful - and I say this as someone whose father was involved in policing a number of semi-finals at Hillsborough (not at the ground on the day). But I feel that all of the inquests, including this one, have delivered flawed verdicts in putting the blame wholly on one side or the other.  In my opinion, and I am entitled to have one, the fans were partly to blamefor the issues leading up to the tragedy and trying to lay the whole blame on the police and Sheffield Wednesday is not correct.  It is a well known fact that a number of fans, even today, spend time in the bars around grounds and arrive late, pushing past you to get to there seats and then wanting to be with their mates at those grounds that do not have allocated seating for away matches (probably just lower leagues like I am used to).  it was these type of fans that contributed to the events - in my opinion
		
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This is exactly what i meant to say but better than i could have written.


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## Beezerk (Apr 26, 2016)

Berger said:



			All of them. The question the jury was asked was in reference to the "behaviour on the part of the football supporters".
		
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I suppose it depends how you take the question, were they disorderly and causing trouble, no, were there thousands of them trying to get into the match just before kickoff, lots without tickets, yes. As I understand it the latter was why the cops stupidly opened the gate.
Anyway we could labour the points all day, I'm glad the families have finally got some form of justice, arguing over the technicality of one of the questions isn't going to achieve anything.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Berger said:



			All of them. The question the jury was asked was in reference to the "behaviour on the part of the football supporters".
		
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Berger, you'll be knocking your head against a brick wall mate.

Some people get some sort of "fame" out of this, people who have had less than 100 posts, suddenly feeling that they can make a name for themselves, or trolls, or haters that are gonna hate.

The overall point is did Liverpool fans do anything different to what other fans did that day in attending a match that day, and they clearly didnt. 

Did the police, stadium authorities, FA, ambulance service clearly get things wrong and absolutely fail in their duty of care, and then provide a massive perjurous cover-up - yes they did.

After that it's just semantics, or people getting some mis-placed fame from going against the grain.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			no, were there thousands of them trying to get into the match just before kickoff, lots without tickets, yes. As I understand it the latter was why the cops stupidly opened the gate.
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I take it you cant read then?


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## Marshy77 (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Berger, you'll be knocking your head against a brick wall mate.

Some people get some sort of "fame" out of this, people who have had less than 100 posts, suddenly feeling that they can make a name for themselves, or trolls, or haters that are gonna hate.

The overall point is did Liverpool fans do anything different to what other fans did that day in attending a match that day, and they clearly didnt. 

Did the police, stadium authorities, FA, ambulance service clearly get things wrong and absolutely fail in their duty of care, and then provide a massive perjurous cover-up - yes they did.

After that it's just semantics, or people getting some mis-placed fame from going against the grain.
		
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Absolutely spot on.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 26, 2016)

I think we have to accept that on the morning of the disaster, NOBODY woke up thinking " Lets cause chaos and kill some football supporters"

What happened was the result of a large number of wrong decisions, bad timing, bad luck and the law of unintended consequences.  What happened afterwards with the cover up and mud slinging was shameful and has to be exposed and dealt with.

But I do not believe there was any malice on the part of the police in charge that day, Gross negligence by those in charge, yes 

It is interesting to look at the various options that the jury could have returned

lawful Killing----- Obviously not 
Misadventure---  The supporters killed or injured did nothing wrong, they did not knowingly put themselves in harms way, so not misadventure.
Open verdict--    only where there are doubts or insufficient evidence, so not an open verdict
Unlawful killing--  Almost by default the one most likely to be selected by the jury.  

Interesting as it could lead to a manslaughter by gross negligence rap against those in charge that day.

I hope the relatives of those who died can finish their grieving now


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

So , sorry but i feel i am being pilloried for my opinion, and i did not know that you need a required number of posts to be able to put an opinion over .I am not seeking"fame " and its insulting to suggest otherwise .


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## Beezerk (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			I take it you cant read then?
		
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Obviously not, you're going to have to help me out here.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			So , sorry but i feel i am being pilloried for my opinion, and i did not know that you need a required number of posts to be able to put an opinion over .I am not seeking"fame " and its insulting to suggest otherwise .
		
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So you join a golf forum, and instead of shooting the breeze about "how do you mark your balls", what about the latest Ping irons, you think that this is more befitting of the use of a golf forum. Moron is a great moniker.

Whats your next missive - "Pol pot - bit misunderstood, wasn't he"?


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## Kellfire (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			So , sorry but i feel i am being pilloried for my opinion, and i did not know that you need a required number of posts to be able to put an opinion over .I am not seeking"fame " and its insulting to suggest otherwise .
		
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As with anything, some people will see any opinion that goes against their own as being inflammatory because they can't/won't see beyond their own opinion. Don't worry about it.

Juries get things wrong especially over emotive topics. That's something that those holding oxymoron et al to task should remember.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Kellfire said:



			As with anything, some people will see any opinion that goes against their own as being inflammatory because they can't/won't see beyond their own opinion. Don't worry about it.

Juries get things wrong especially over emotive topics. That's something that those holding oxymoron et al to task should remember.
		
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Not said as a bitter man U supporter then?

I was there that day, whats your knowledge?


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			So you join a golf forum, and instead of shooting the breeze about "how do you mark your balls", what about the latest Ping irons, you think that this is more befitting of the use of a golf forum. Moron is a great moniker.

Whats your next missive - "Pol pot - bit misunderstood, wasn't he"?
		
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You really are a nice piece of work , cant you say anything without insulting anyone ? Man u supporter ? WTF has that got to do with it ? Why drag other teams in to it ? Any chance of a balanced conversation has just flown out of the window .


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 26, 2016)

Time to stop gents please


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## pokerjoke (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Not said as a bitter man U supporter then?

I was there that day, whats your knowledge?
		
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I am a Man Utd supporter and have been for 41 years and I am extremely pleased with the verdict today.

I was not there obviously and I really feel for the supporters that were and those that saw such a tragedy take place.

I remember watching on tv and seeing those faces squashed up against the fences and the images in the papers afterwards and remember how shocked I was.

Imo it is a great day for the 96 and the families,supporters and players involved on that fateful day and my thoughts are with you all today.

Just on another note this subject is always going to throw up something people don't like and imo threads like this should be shut down as soon as possible once friction occurs.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			I am a Man Utd supporter and have been for 41 years and I am extremely pleased with the verdict today.

I was not there obviously and I really feel for the supporters that were and those that saw such a tragedy take place.

I remember watching on tv and seeing those faces squashed up against the fences and the images in the papers afterwards and remember how shocked I was.

Imo it is a great day for the 96 and the families,supporters and players involved on that fateful day and my thoughts are with you all today.

Just on another note this subject is always going to throw up something people don't like and imo threads like this should be shut down as soon as possible once friction occurs.
		
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Bang on Tony, and not for one minute do I class all man U fans as the same.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			So , sorry but i feel i am being pilloried for my opinion, and i did not know that you need a required number of posts to be able to put an opinion over .I am not seeking"fame " and its insulting to suggest otherwise .
		
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Pilloried, PILLORIED!!!!!

You donâ€™t know what pilloried is. A few words on a golf forum, that you hardly contribute on. Awwww, poor you.

Try going to away games for 27 years having SOME supporters singing "you killed your own fans", "Always the victims" and much worse,and be told "oh just forget about it, and get on with life". 
Have other supporters mimic dying and crush poses.

Luckily most footy fans are great, and there has been lots of support from all over the world.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Bang on Tony, and not for one minute do I class all man U fans as the same.
		
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I know mate

Have a good day today mate justice has been done.


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Have a good day today mate justice has been done.
		
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Blame has certainly been apportioned, do the families/fans want prosecutions following these verdicts?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			Obviously not, you're going to have to help me out here.
		
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So where is your information from, or do you just think it from years of mi-informed opinion, normally put out there by the police.

Police who changed over 200 statements, bullying their own officers, and suggesting changes of wording.

Without you looking it up, how many people do you think got in without tickets? Again, even if it happened doesnâ€™t this happen at hundreds of footy matches every year?

Did you know that the leppings land wasnâ€™t full to capacity at the time?

Why didnâ€™t the police have a cordon 300 yards from the turnstiles, like they did at the previous years semi-final between the same two clubs, which also allowed them to filter fans arrival at the bottleneck of turnstiles that Leppings lane is.

There was a major traffic accident on the day, massively delaying fans. Why did forest fans have over 60 turnstiles, whilst we had only 23, and a further 12 were not available on the day.

Why did the ground not have a proper safety certifictae. I could go on.

All free and easy to read, a bit different to how you "think".


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

As i stated in my first post my heart goes out to the innocents , however if it means getting insulted and belittled then i am out. Sorry i dont post much but if this is an example of what happens when someone does not see things your way and disagrees with your opinion , it will make me think twice in future .


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Blame has certainly been apportioned, do the families/fans want prosecutions following these verdicts?
		
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I would like to think that those in high office who were complicit in the cover up, including the comments they made about those that weren't alive to defend themselves, are hung, drawn and quartered!

People on the ground made the wrong decision, but for those in high office to do what they did in the cold light of day - despicable!


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			As i stated in my first post my heart goes out to the innocents , however if it means getting insulted and belittled then i am out. Sorry i dont post much but if this is an example of what happens when someone does not see things your way and disagrees with your opinion , it will make me think twice in future .
		
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So you pick one of the most emotive subjects possible, post views that 99.9% of the forum members will be offended by and then you're the injured soldier - I wish you'd have thought twice before you posted in the first place!


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I would like to think that those in high office who were complicit in the cover up, including the comments they made about those that weren't alive to defend themselves, are hung, drawn and quartered!

People on the ground made the wrong decision, but for those in high office to do what they did in the cold light of day - despicable!
		
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That's how I'd feel Brian, but i just wondered how those so deeply affected and who'd fought for donkeys years feel, and whether they wanted years more of courts etc


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## Beezerk (Apr 26, 2016)

chrisd said:



			So you pick one of the most emotive subjects possible, post views that 99.9% of the forum members will be offended by and then you're the injured soldier - I wish you'd have thought twice before you posted in the first place!
		
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Give him a break eh?
I didn't realise you had to earn the right to post your thoughts on this forum, then again it's a bit like a regular golf club so maybe I'm wrong. 
So what if his opinion differs from LB's, there's no need to be so personal and bite his head off IMO.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

chrisd said:



			That's how I'd feel Brian, but i just wondered how those so deeply affected and who'd fought for donkeys years feel, and whether they wanted years more of courts etc
		
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I think liverpool fans will have their opinions Chris, but the main decision is what the families want. 

I dont blame them for at least wanting to see the higher echelons, and the ones implicit in the cover up in a dock.

There were some heroic things done by some of the police and ambulance that day, but not all of them, by any stretch.


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## oxymoron (Apr 26, 2016)

chrisd said:



			So you pick one of the most emotive subjects possible, post views that 99.9% of the forum members will be offended by and then you're the injured soldier - I wish you'd have thought twice before you posted in the first place!
		
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Am i not entitled to an opinion ? Not playing the injured soldier at all, silly comment really again was going to stay out but some wait then have a go and to say 99.9% offended ? So the 0.1 % are not entitled to voice their opinion however unpopular .I think its time to close this thread not because i am insulted , feel free to slag me all day if you want , but the vociferous few can bandy insults to others and not have a word said , very democratic just jump on the one who thinks a bit different .


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## Piece (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			As i stated in my first post my heart goes out to the innocents , however if it means getting insulted and belittled then i am out. Sorry i dont post much but if this is an example of what happens when someone does not see things your way and disagrees with your opinion , it will make me think twice in future .
		
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I don't see how you can have an 'opinion' when the solid, hard, indisputable facts have been laid bare that the Liverpool fans did NOT cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at their end.

I can give you my _opinion_ that grass is blue, but the *facts* says it's green.


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## BoadieBroadus (Apr 26, 2016)

Piece said:



			I don't see how you can have an 'opinion' when the solid, hard, indisputable facts have been laid bare that the Liverpool fans did NOT cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at their end.

I can give you my _opinion_ that grass is blue, but the *facts* says it's green.
		
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yes correct. this inquest was invaluable in determining undisputed facts of how the events unfolded. facts that ultimately had to be conceded as such by those who had done so much to obscure them and falsify them over the 27 years. what happened is now not a matter of "opinion" any longer.


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## User62651 (Apr 26, 2016)

Has taken an age but thankfully the jury has reached what I'm sure is the correct decision. This is a cover up of all cover ups by the authorities who had clearly got it all wrong and were ill prepared on the day. English fans were in a period in 1989 of being banned from Europe for 5 years for hooliganism particularly after the Heysel disaster where Liverpool fans were held largely responsible in indirectly causing the deaths of Juventus fans by crushing. For the powers that be dealing with Hillsborough a few years later it was likely too convenient and very cowardly to point to Heysel and hooliganism in general as 'evidence' that football fans in general were drunken and aggressive - thought they could pull a fast one and get away with blaming the HB disaster on the Liverpool fans. 
Didn't work thankfully down to the families of the 96, but to have been so difficult and to have taken this long to get to the truth is unbelievable and shows the authorities up for what they were/are  - cowards. Mrs Thatcher must have been complicit in all this cover up too I imagine. Shameful. Hoping relatives and friends can find some kind of closure now. However I think this will lead to further court cases from angry families demanding prosecutions and compensation etc.


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			Am i not entitled to an opinion ?
		
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Yes of course but in the light of the subject and how emotive it is I personally would prefer that you keep it to yourself! 

But that's just my opinion!


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## Stuart_C (Apr 26, 2016)

The lies that SYP along with Thatcher and and her cronies peddled as the truth have been proved as what they where back then Lies!!

It was one of the biggest cover ups ever in this country.


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Has taken an age but thankfully the jury has reached what I'm sure is the correct decision. This is a cover up of all cover ups by the authorities who had clearly got it all wrong and were ill prepared on the day. English fans were in a period in 1989 of being banned from Europe for 5 years for hooliganism particularly after the Heysel disaster where Liverpool fans were held largely responsible in indirectly causing the deaths of Juventus fans by crushing. For the powers that be dealing with Hillsborough a few years later it was likely too convenient and very cowardly to point to Heysel and hooliganism in general as 'evidence' that football fans in general were drunken and aggressive - thought they could pull a fast one and get away with blaming the HB disaster on the Liverpool fans. 
Didn't work thankfully down to the families of the 96, but to have been so difficult and to have taken this long to get to the truth is unbelievable and shows the authorities up for what they were/are  - cowards. Mrs Thatcher must have been complicit in all this cover up too I imagine. Shameful. Hoping relatives and friends can find some kind of closure now. However I think this will lead to further court cases from angry families demanding prosecutions and compensation etc.
		
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Hobbit said:



			I would like to think that those in high office who were complicit in the cover up, including the comments they made about those that weren't alive to defend themselves, are hung, drawn and quartered!

People on the ground made the wrong decision, but for those in high office to do what they did in the cold light of day - despicable!
		
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Totally agree with these sentiments!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 26, 2016)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...about-football-disaster-was-national-disgrace


THE STAGGERS  26 APRIL 2016
The Hillsborough verdict isnâ€™t about football â€“ the disaster was a national disgrace
It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.
BY NEIL ATKINSON

It is important on days like today to remember that we can't expect one correct response from the thousands of people touched by the national disgrace which is the Hillsborough Disaster but can only hope for many human ones. Since the 15th April 1989 so many people have responded differently to what the events of that day set in motion. The most we can ask of ourselves is to be human and to allow others to be human in their own way. This process has been so long running and has involved so many different aspects of society that all human life is here.

Even now there are no neat endings. Even now the process is on going. All we can say is there just needs to be humanity. Yet even in this inquest, it was in short supply from some, for example the South Yorkshire Police and Yorkshire Ambulance Service who fought tooth and nail to avoid adverse findings from the jury. Unlike them all we can attempt to do is be gentle and accept there are few right answers, just people doing their best.

For instance, it is important to remember that a very small number of the families aren't even represented at the inquest. A number of the survivors would just wish to put it behind them. They just wanted to get on with their lives after the cataclysmic event. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.

For some of the families and survivors today's verdict is enough. It's the end of the road, the wrong righted, the times of death confirmed. It is time to move on and get beyond this. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.

For many others of the families and survivors today's verdict is a step on the road. The pressure will now come onto the IPCC, Operation Resolve and the CPS to see charges handed down, to see the process through to its conclusion in a courtroom. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.

And for some, that event that will never be enough. Even that will never be enough for what happened twenty seven years ago and what went on to happen in the days, weeks and years that followed. For some there will be no respite from this, there will be no rest from the anger and the grief and the shame they were forced to feel. There will be no release. There will be no action which will ever bring peace, not after all the suppression and the sidelining of their truth, their truth which transpired to actually be The Truth. There is no end to this. This is what miscarriages of justice do. This too is very human and a perfectly understandable response.


Today, two incontrovertible facts have been made clear again: Firstly, that the 96 people were unlawfully killed. Secondly, that the behaviour of the Liverpool supporters did not cause the disaster. Further, what has become crystal clear through the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report, through this inquest, and what will become even clearer with the IPCC and Operation Resolve report expected by the end of the year, is the extent to which all these very human people were aggressively, endlessly dehumanised. Before, during and after the 15th April 1989.

The preparation of the semi-final and the response to the disaster â€“ the immediate disaster, was inhumane. This is what the unlawful killing verdict means. The response to the disaster â€“ the days, weeks and years that followed the 15th April 1989, did nothing but dehumanise those who had suffered: dehumanised the families bereaved; dehumanised those in the Leppings Lane end who survived and saved others when those there to protect them wilfully failed to act; dehumanised a city trapped in collective grief. The dehumanising started and it simply didn't stop, not for years, decades.

All this has become crystal clear.

It was pretty crystal clear all along if we can be honest with each other. But this is what dehumanising people does. What dehumanising people does is obscure what should be crystal clear and instead say that it doesn't really matter, that they turned up late, that they turned up drunk. That they robbed the dead. And then that they have a chip on their shoulder. That they are a self-pity city. That they are always the victims. Always the victims. It is never their fault. They weren't one of us. They were one of them.


Dehumanising people doesn't just happen over night â€“ it isn't a cataclysmic event; it caused a cataclysmic event, it obscured a cataclysmic event but it isn't one itself. It is an erosion and a corrosion and it needs the circumstances to work. The Enemy Within. Managed decline. Orgreave. An attitude hammered home day after day after day for a decade and beyond towards working class people and football supporters and a city allowed the dehumanising to occur.

There is this line around Hillsborough that is often uttered by those within Liverpool - â€œthey picked on the wrong cityâ€. It's a good folk story to tell ourselves. Like many such lines it is both completely true and absolutely false. Liverpool can organise, yes. Liverpool will fight and this was a fight led by Liverpool's women, Liverpool's mothers who simply would not ever let the lies lie. They wouldn't stand for it. For those who have campaigned aggressively today is another day of vindication, another day where their tenacity and bravery has to be applauded.

But they picked on the right city as well. The city was the softest target of a decade which had been set up to create and pick off soft targets. The dehumanisation happened and was allowed to happen to a city because those undertaking it knew so many nationwide would allow it to go on. To go on and on. This isn't just about a right wing government and a corrupt police force back then. The past isn't another country, let's not kid ourselves. The targets remain soft in this country â€“ they are just less visible.

Therefore let's take today as another opportunity to be crystal clear and let's keep being crystal clear: Hillsborough is a national disgrace. I've been asked to write this because I host a podcast around Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club, because I write about football. But Hillsborough isn't about football, it just so happens that football is the thing that linked those 96 disparate lives, the thing that linked the thousands on the terraces â€“ this thing of ours.

There are so many who should know better in this country, many who would subscribe then and now to a magazine such as this one, many who will have decided things can only get better in 1997,  who will have presumed things must have gone wrong somewhere involving the supporters. Who will have assumed Hillsborough is a football tragedy and can be left over there. Who stood by as the biggest miscarriage of justice in British legal history took place. Because, well, â€œfootball supporters.â€ â€œLiverpool.â€ â€œSomething a bit fishy but you know.â€ You know.

It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.

This is the essence of the national disgrace, of this verdict, of every single time Hillsborough comes clattering back into public view. Our nation did this to its own people. Not the odd bad apple of a police officer, not a rogue reporter or two, not individuals but instead institutionalised inhumanity.

Our nation.

Neil Atkinson writes and presents podcasts at The Anfield Wrap.


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## User20205 (Apr 26, 2016)

to add contrary opinion on this now the findings are official is like offering opinion that the earth is flat, it's just nonsense. 

Fan behavior was no different to others games up & down the country that season, none of those ended in the same way.

what happened was state endorsed manslaughter


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## bluewolf (Apr 26, 2016)

A fantastic day, and one that friends and family of mine who were at the game have waited a long time for. 

On on a side note, I was chatting with Scouser at the Golf Club today. Both of us thought that it would be tonight before someone decided to post up a contrary "opinion". We thought that a few drinks would lubricate someone's trolling habits. I'm genuinely bemused that it took less than half an hour. People never fail to disappoint.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 26, 2016)

When facts are presented opinions no longer matter. 

This is a long read and will probably make you shed a tear or two...

http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## TheDiablo (Apr 26, 2016)

I don't claim to know enough to form an opinion on this - I was too young at the time to remember it and as I have no real connection to Liverpool I have never had much interest in understanding what happened.

However after today it is clear that facts have now been established, not opinions. Phenomenal work from the families who refused to accept corruption of the worst kind.

I read this piece at lunch - if anyone wants to clearly understand what happened that day, and the facts the enquiry has confirmed, I highly recommend this fantastic piece.

http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 26, 2016)

A proud and lifelong Everton fan who shed a few tears today at the absolutely fantastic news that came out of Warrington, the thought of my best mate who was there and has never been able to talk about it or my brother-in-law who has suffered nightmares for years over his guilt for coming home safe, but mostly for the 96 who went to football match and never came home.
To the families who have suffered and fought for this day and those family members who went to their graves fighting for the truth.
Let it sink in, let us rejoice, there'll be plenty of fighting and possible disappointments ahead, but today of all todays please remember the innocent 96.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 26, 2016)

I think the biggest thing for those still arguing the fact is that, irrespective of who you still blame for the events occurring. It had been proven that the cover up was real. And for that at least, all those responsible deserve to be dealt with. 
im not sure what punishments they can face. As has been mentioned previously. I don't think the acts that unfolded during the tragedy were done so with malice. But, the events after clearly were with self preservation in mind. And that's what, ironically has caused them to be caught and probably dealt with more severely in time.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 26, 2016)

oxymoron said:



			Am i not entitled to an opinion ?.
		
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But occasionally a bit of common sense and decency should make people think twice about posting it.


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## Tarkus1212 (Apr 26, 2016)

SaintHacker said:



			Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But occasionally a bit of common sense and decency should make people think twice about posting it.
		
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Spot on.

In fact those that are sticking with the opinion that the fans were to blame are basically saying that the jury got it wrong and that they know better - incredibly arrogant.


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## Grogger (Apr 26, 2016)

So glad the truth has finally come out. Hopefully the the families can finally start to work on getting some closure. 

Such a horrible incident that could have been avoided. My uncle was at the Hillsborough disaster in 89 and my dad was there in 87 with Leeds when we narrowly avoided a disaster of our own due to the same problems so it's always been something that's been part of my life from a young age. 

Disgusting that it's taken 27 years


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 26, 2016)

I echo (nearly) all the sentiments expressed so far. Hopefully this will bring the families some closure (if that is even the right word in this situation) and those responsible will be held to account.

I don't want to take the thread off track so would any of the Liverpool fans mind answering a question if I was to PM it to them?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 26, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			To the families who have suffered and fought for this day and those family members who went to their graves fighting for the truth.
Let it sink in, let us rejoice, there'll be plenty of fighting and possible disappointments ahead, but today of all todays please remember the innocent 96.
		
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I think this is spot on. It's a time to rejoice that justice has been done. Whatever actions may or may not follow are for another day


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 26, 2016)

Firstly I should make a confession.

For years, thanks to the media campaign at the time and one or two incidents I had witnessed, I could not stop myself wondering if the fans outside the ground might have, in some way, contributed towards causing this tragedy.

Today I have, perhaps belatedly, read the reports and evidence and, to put it mildly, I am both shocked and disgusted to discover the lengths the authorities went to in order to conceal the truth.

I watch TV programmes such as "Line of Duty" and, until now, have dismissed them as far fetched but now I find my faith in our system being severely tested.

To the authorities I say take every measure necessary to ensure that nothing like this cover up can ever happen again.

To the survivors and all Liverpool fans I say sorry for having harboured any doubts.

To the families and friends of the victims I hope that today's verdict finally brings you some solace and peace.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I echo (nearly) all the sentiments expressed so far. Hopefully this will bring the families some closure (if that is even the right word in this situation) and those responsible will be held to account.

I don't want to take the thread off track so would any of the Liverpool fans mind answering a question if I was to PM it to them?
		
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If I can.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 26, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			If I can.
		
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Cheers Stu. Have had a PM from LP so will wait for his response.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 26, 2016)

It took two years for the inquest to go through all the evidence, present it to a jury and for them to evaluate it and deliver their verdict and responses to the questions.

What makes someone who hasn't devoted that level of attention to the facts think their opinion is somehow more valid than that delivered by the jury?

The questions are answered, the fans are vindicated, the authorities are implicated and surely charges will follow.


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## Fish (Apr 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers Stu. Have had a PM from LP so will wait for his response.
		
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I'd stick with Stu & Peter, they go to actual matches!


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## peterlav (Apr 26, 2016)

Disgusting it has taken so long for the truth to come out.
The lengths that the authorities took to blame innocent supporters, to exonerate themselves is truly sickening 
Today is a good day


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## Stuart_C (Apr 26, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Firstly I should make a confession.

For years, thanks to the media campaign at the time and one or two incidents I had witnessed, I could not stop myself wondering if the fans outside the ground might have, in some way, contributed towards causing this tragedy.

Today I have, perhaps belatedly, read the reports and evidence and, to put it mildly, I am both shocked and disgusted to discover the lengths the authorities went to in order to conceal the truth.

I watch TV programmes such as "Line of Duty" and, until now, have dismissed them as far fetched but now I find my faith in our system being severely tested.

To the authorities I say take every measure necessary to ensure that nothing like this cover up can ever happen again.

To the survivors and all Liverpool fans I say sorry for having harboured any doubts.

To the families and friends of the victims I hope that today's verdict finally brings you some solace and peace.
		
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MM, full respect to you for at least educating yourself to form an opinion on the subject as opposed to believing what was printed in the paper.

Unfortunately the establishment chose to protect themselves over the public but they picked on the wrong city. We knew the truth but the Police, Tory government along with Murdoch and his cronies decided to spread the lies to protect themselves and for 23 years they were relatively successful. It was all our fault.

Today's verdicts were all based on cold hard facts.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 26, 2016)

Fish said:



			I'd stick with Stu & Peter, they go to actual matches!
		
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You're better than this fishy.


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## Fish (Apr 26, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			You're better than this fishy.
		
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It's a factual comment, if he's looking for an informed opinion, then people living in and amongst it all and who go to matches will be better equipped, it means nothing more or less than that, it's an honest opinion and observation.


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## Beezerk (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



So where is your information from, or do you just think it from years of mi-informed opinion, normally put out there by the police.

Police who changed over 200 statements, bullying their own officers, and suggesting changes of wording.

Without you looking it up, how many people do you think got in without tickets? Again, even if it happened doesnâ€™t this happen at hundreds of footy matches every year?

Did you know that the leppings land wasnâ€™t full to capacity at the time?

Why didnâ€™t the police have a cordon 300 yards from the turnstiles, like they did at the previous years semi-final between the same two clubs, which also allowed them to filter fans arrival at the bottleneck of turnstiles that Leppings lane is.

There was a major traffic accident on the day, massively delaying fans. Why did forest fans have over 60 turnstiles, whilst we had only 23, and a further 12 were not available on the day.

Why did the ground not have a proper safety certifictae. I could go on.

All free and easy to read, a bit different to how you "think".

Click to expand...

Thanks for that mate, I knew some of those facts but not all of them, certainly shows things in another light.
Being a Wednesdayite I know it hit the club, the fans and the local people hard, it was eerie being in the stadium after it happened and sometimes an uncomfortable place to be. For a long time afterwards a lot of opinions were given out at the games, without knowing the full facts like we do today it was hard to really understand exactly what happened that day.
Hopefully we'll get in the Premiership via the playoffs this year, it will be quite an emotional event when Liverpool next visit.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 26, 2016)

So glad justice is finally being given to those lost and left behind.
 I have nothing but admiration for those thats have carried the fight for this, with such dignity and restraint in the face of such horrendous lies and falsehoods.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I echo (nearly) all the sentiments expressed so far. Hopefully this will bring the families some closure (if that is even the right word in this situation) and those responsible will be held to account.

I don't want to take the thread off track so would any of the Liverpool fans mind answering a question if I was to PM it to them?
		
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I'm away on my way up to Scotland tomorrow, but fire away.:thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			I think the biggest thing for those still arguing the fact is that, irrespective of who you still blame for the events occurring. It had been proven that the cover up was real. And for that at least, all those responsible deserve to be dealt with. 
im not sure what punishments they can face. As has been mentioned previously. I don't think the acts that unfolded during the tragedy were done so with malice. But, the events after clearly were with self preservation in mind. And that's what, ironically has caused them to be caught and probably dealt with more severely in time.
		
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Absolute class from Everton FC again today, Paul.

Woouldn't have been as easy without the Blues help. Unique city we live in, mate.:thup:


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			I'm away on my way up to Scotland tomorrow, but fire away.:thup:
		
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Cheers, have now had answers from LP and Stu.

Don't forget to pack your waterproofs and your thermals. I've been in Aberdeen harbour for the last two days and it's been miserable here. Alternating between hail and snow with strong winds. Has changed a bit this evening though as it's now only raining.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 26, 2016)

Beezerk said:



			Thanks for that mate, I knew some of those facts but not all of them, certainly shows things in another light.
Being a Wednesdayite I know it hit the club, the fans and the local people hard, it was eerie being in the stadium after it happened and sometimes an uncomfortable place to be. For a long time afterwards a lot of opinions were given out at the games, without knowing the full facts like we do today it was hard to really understand exactly what happened that day.
Hopefully we'll get in the Premiership via the playoffs this year, it will be quite an emotional event when Liverpool next visit.
		
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One thing Liverpool fans dont blame is the people and city of Sheffield.

As I'd been to Heysel, my mam didnt know me and my dad were ok until the very next day when we called home, so I learned a lesson from this.

There was a shop on the corner by Leppings lane that let us in their back room to phone home, as they kept on doing to others. many other Sheffield people did this.

Sheffield Wednesday FC and Sheffield council were culpable with regards to the ground's safety certificate being out of date, crash barriers being substandard, and despite warnings in previous semi-finals (ones involving Leeds, Spurs, Man U where crushing had also happened), but no criticism for the people of Sheffield.

This should be above tribal football rivalries, as should Munich, Ibrox, Burnden park and Bradford but some people cant help doing it and smear people due to it. A long time ago (but not soon enough) I realised that Mancs and Scousers had more in common than what made us different.

For any Man U on here (or good football fan) , here is a cracking read from 2012, just before another inquest , from a Man U fan:-

http://www.afinelung.com/?p=4815

Maybe some people could learn a lot from this.

Finally, on the day, some Liverpool fans had a bevvy, and some acted anti-socially, some didnt have tickets, some probably peed in back entries, and stole some mars bars at the services.

Up the length and breadth of the country, it was going on every week by lots of football fans. Dont mix that up with "charging the gates", urinating on police, picking the pockets of their fellow dead fans - all this was levelled against us, and it all wasnt true.


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## Jensen (Apr 26, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			One thing Liverpool fans dont blame is the people and city of Sheffield.

As I'd been to Heysel, my mam didnt know me and my dad were ok until the very next day when we called home, so I learned a lesson from this.

There was a shop on the corner by Leppings lane that let us in their back room to phone home, as they kept on doing to others. many other Sheffield people did this.

Sheffield Wednesday FC and Sheffield council were culpable with regards to the ground's safety certificate being out of date, crash barriers being substandard, and despite warnings in previous semi-finals (ones involving Leeds, Spurs, Man U where crushing had also happened), but no criticism for the people of Sheffield.

This should be above tribal football rivalries, as should Munich, Ibrox, Burnden park and Bradford but some people cant help doing it and smear people due to it. A long time ago (but not soon enough) I realised that Mancs and Scousers had more in common than what made us different.

For any Man U on here (or good football fan) , here is a cracking read from 2012, just before another inquest , from a Man U fan:-

http://www.afinelung.com/?p=4815

Maybe some people could learn a lot from this.

Finally, on the day, some Liverpool fans had a bevvy, and some acted anti-socially, some didnt have tickets, some probably peed in back entries, and stole some mars bars at the services.

Up the length and breadth of the country, it was going on every week by lots of football fans. Dont mix that up with "charging the gates", urinating on police, picking the pockets of their fellow dead fans - all this was levelled against us, and it all wasnt true.
		
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That's a fair and balanced post


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 27, 2016)

Interesting, and probably not that surprising, to see which papers have and have not lead with the story today.  Thought The Metro's front page was a nice touch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36147007


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## Tarkus1212 (Apr 27, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting, and probably not that surprising, to see which papers have and have not lead with the story today.  Thought The Metro's front page was a nice touch. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36147007

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The Editors of the Times, Sun, Mail and Express should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Mind you the last three publications are more comics than newspapers.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 27, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			The Editors of the Times, Sun, Mail and Express should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Mind you the last three publications are more comics than newspapers.
		
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The Express did mention it in a banner heading on the front page, much as The Daily Fail did. But to expect the Express to lead on anything else apart from the weather and/or the latest health scare/miracle cure that they have taken completely out of context, is only ever going to lead to constant disappointment. As in addition to the obligatory immigrant scare story, it's all they ever do


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## MegaSteve (Apr 27, 2016)

If The Sun disappeared off the newsstands don't believe too many tears would be shed...

Find it hard to believe MacKenzie is still writing for them... [or have I got that bit wrong]...


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## Tarkus1212 (Apr 27, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			If The Sun disappeared off the newsstands don't believe too many tears would be shed...

Find it hard to believe MacKenzie is still writing for them... [or have I got that bit wrong]...
		
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You have it right, I heard him and the Sun being discussed on the radio earlier today. He's a scumbag writing for a scummy rag - they deserve each other.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2016)

Tarkus1212 said:



			You have it right, I heard him and the Sun being discussed on the radio earlier today. He's a scumbag writing for a scummy rag - they deserve each other.
		
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In fairness he did, at least, seem contrite when interviewed on the news earlier today. He also seemed very angry when admitting that he had been misled and lied to 27 years ago by those in authority.

He felt he had been used and, in truth, I think he was as the Sun, in those days, had a massive readership so was particularly attractive to those in charge of propaganda.

His "crime" was to not ensure that the facts were not sought. After all in a democracy there is no point in having a free Press if the newspaper with the largest circulation swallows the Establishment's lies as in this cover up.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 27, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			In fairness he did, at least, seem contrite when interviewed on the news earlier today. He also seemed very angry when admitting that he had been misled and lied to 27 years ago by those in authority.

He felt he had been used and, in truth, I think he was as the Sun, in those days, had a massive readership so was particularly attractive to those in charge of propaganda.

His "crime" was to not ensure that the facts were not sought. After all in a democracy there is no point in having a free Press if the newspaper with the largest circulation swallows the Establishment's lies as in this cover up.
		
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Mickie do not be fooled by his latest comments, hes made a living off the back of that headline and up until 6 months ago he maintained what he wrote was correct.  

Use google and have read of some of the disgusting comments he's made about that day.

They weren't the only ones to pedal the establishment's line, though once the other papers soon realised, they changed their tone.

only 6 months ago he continued with his bile and this was after the truth was released. 

He's vermin.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Mickie do not be fooled by his latest comments, hes made a living off the back of that headline and up until 6 months ago he maintained what he wrote was correct.  

Use google and have read of some of the disgusting comments he's made about that day.

They weren't the only ones to pedal the establishment's line, though once the other papers soon realised, they changed their tone.

only 6 months ago he continued with his bile and this was after the truth was released. 

He's vermin.
		
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Stu don't mistake my comments as sympathy for Kelvin Mackenzie.

My concern is that the country's biggest selling newspaper allowed itself to be used as a mouthpiece for the propaganda of the Establishment thereby colouring public opinion.

Mackenzie showed some contrition but rather like the truth it has taken far, far too long before it has come out.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 27, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Stu don't mistake my comments as sympathy for Kelvin Mackenzie.

*My concern is that the country's biggest selling newspaper allowed itself to be used as a mouthpiece for the propaganda of the Establishment thereby colouring public opinion.*

Mackenzie showed some contrition but rather like the truth it has taken far, far too long before it has come out.
		
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It's well known Murdoch has the Tory party in his pocket but that's another story.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 27, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			It's well known Murdoch has the Tory party in his pocket but that's another story.
		
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I think that was most definitely true in the time of Mrs Thatcher but began to wane when Major was PM until courtesy of Rebecca Brooks transferred to Blair in '97.

Subsequently due to the dwindling influence of the printed media Murdoch has lost his ready access to the corridors of power. This is shown by his strongly anti-EU stance being in direct conflict with Cameron.


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## timd77 (May 1, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Mickie do not be fooled by his latest comments, hes made a living off the back of that headline and up until 6 months ago he maintained what he wrote was correct.  

Use google and have read of some of the disgusting comments he's made about that day.

They weren't the only ones to pedal the establishment's line, though once the other papers soon realised, they changed their tone.

only 6 months ago he continued with his bile and this was after the truth was released. 



He's vermin.
		
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His hilarious 'Lord Mackenzie of Anfield' so called joke is a prime example of this. As someone else described him recently, he's like a cornered rat and will do or say anything to get himself out.

A man in his position who sanctioned that headline should have the will and intelligence to check out the validity of his stories himself. The Taylor report was pretty clear in stating that the fans weren't to blame and he's had plenty of opportunity since to put things right, but he craves the attention. How the BBC still have him on question time is absolutely staggering.

Sadly, he's only the mouthpiece. The real criminals are the likes of duckenfield, popper, bent coppers, thatcher and her cronies, jack straw etc etc. Just hope they get what's coming to them.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 1, 2016)

timd77 said:



			His hilarious 'Lord Mackenzie of Anfield' so called joke is a prime example of this. As someone else described him recently, he's like a cornered rat and will do or say anything to get himself out.

A man in his position who sanctioned that headline should have the will and intelligence to check out the validity of his stories himself. The Taylor report was pretty clear in stating that the fans weren't to blame and he's had plenty of opportunity since to put things right, but he craves the attention. How the BBC still have him on question time is absolutely staggering.

Sadly, he's only the mouthpiece. The real criminals are the likes of duckenfield, popper, bent coppers, thatcher and her cronies, jack straw etc etc. Just hope they get what's coming to them.
		
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When have the "red tops" ever cared about only printing the truth? They will print what they think will sell papers nothing more.


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## Grogger (May 1, 2016)

If anyone is interested the mid 90's Hilsborough docu-drama is on ITV tonight at 10:40pm


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## Liverpoolphil (May 8, 2016)

Very good Documentary on BBC 2 now


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## timd77 (May 9, 2016)

It was indeed. Absolutely heartbreaking. I've never seen some of that video footage before, harrowing.

Phil scraton is an absolute God send. He deserves the freedom of the city.


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## gmc40 (May 9, 2016)

It was a very good documentary. The way they were treated in the immediate aftermath was disgusting. Agree re: Phillip Scraton.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 9, 2016)

Agree about Scraton - he will rightly be honoured by the city 

I don't think I will ever comprehend what the families went through and how strong they were in their fight over the 27 years - it's a national disgrace how they covered it up and it's disgusting that it took so long to finally get the full truth. It's now time for the right people to be fully punished for their actions in both the tradegy and the cover up afterwards.


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## sawtooth (May 22, 2016)

timd77 said:



			It was indeed. Absolutely heartbreaking. I've never seen some of that video footage before, harrowing.

Phil scraton is an absolute God send. He deserves the freedom of the city.
		
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Finally got around to watching this on Iplayer, very harrowing indeed and very graphic wasn't expecting that at all.

Professor Scraton did such excellent work and he possibly could not  have got started if it wasn't for that policeman who he agreed to meet and handover his version of accounts.

Families were treated extremely badly I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing.

I wanted to watch this because I really didn't properly know what went on and how it all started.  I  must admit that over the years I formed an opinion based on what was reported on TV and the papers and let's just say my opinion had changed dramatically since watching this programme.

Excellent documentary and its quite obvious now why the people fighting for justice could never let it go.


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## Liverbirdie (May 22, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Finally got around to watching this on Iplayer, very harrowing indeed and very graphic wasn't expecting that at all.

Professor Scraton did such excellent work and he possibly could not  have got started if it wasn't for that policeman who he agreed to meet and handover his version of accounts.

Families were treated extremely badly I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing.

I wanted to watch this because I really didn't properly know what went on and how it all started.  I  must admit that over the years I formed an opinion based on what was reported on TV and the papers and let's just say my opinion had changed dramatically since watching this programme.

Excellent documentary and its quite obvious now why the people fighting for justice could never let it go.
		
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Nice to hear, Sean - that is why the fight for truth (and for the general populace to realise what went on) has been won, or at least for 90% of people - there will always be some who dont want to hear it, and have already formed their opinions, sadly and mainly because of football tribalism. This goes beyond that for me.

The fight for justice has still not been won.

I still havent watched it myself yet, but will be watching it after catching up on lots of the other stuff.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Nice to hear, Sean - that is why the fight for truth (and for the general populace to realise what went on) has been won, or at least for 90% of people - there will always be some who dont want to hear it, and have already formed their opinions, sadly and mainly because of football tribalism. This goes beyond that for me.

The fight for justice has still not been won.

I still havent watched it myself yet, but will be watching it after catching up on lots of the other stuff.
		
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Well said Pete and just to add how sad it is that these families have had to fight for so long and who lost others along the way, they died not knowing if their loved ones would ever get justice.


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## sawtooth (May 22, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Nice to hear, Sean - that is why the fight for truth (and for the general populace to realise what went on) has been won, or at least for 90% of people - there will always be some who dont want to hear it, and have already formed their opinions, sadly and mainly because of football tribalism. This goes beyond that for me.

The fight for justice has still not been won.

I still havent watched it myself yet, but will be watching it after catching up on lots of the other stuff.
		
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Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

You need  to watch it soon or record it as I don't think these stay on catchup forever.

I have a question , did anyone use the PA system on the day? To me it would have been helpful to all concerned if the ground staff or police made announcements. I'm sure this must have happened but it wasn't mentioned in the programme ( unless I missed it).
Just curious to what was said and when because it seemed that large part of the stadium inside and outside didn't have a clue to what was going on. Surely they had stadium PA back then?!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 23, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

You need  to watch it soon or record it as I don't think these stay on catchup forever.

I have a question , did anyone use the PA system on the day? To me it would have been helpful to all concerned if the ground staff or police made announcements. I'm sure this must have happened but it wasn't mentioned in the programme ( unless I missed it).
Just curious to what was said and when because it seemed that large part of the stadium inside and outside didn't have a clue to what was going on. Surely they had stadium PA back then?!
		
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Agree with everything you said here and on the previous post. Watched it with the wife, who although aware of the disaster had zero idea of the extent, and had always been fed the drunk fan line. She was in tears throughout and I couldn't believe quite the levels the police and authorities stooped to. That copper that met Scraton was so brave, especially given the culture back then. 

It's not the end by a long way but a big step forward on a road many thought they would ever travel on. Let's hope following the verdict things can finally move on and the 96 get the justice they deserve


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## Liverbirdie (May 23, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

You need  to watch it soon or record it as I don't think these stay on catchup forever.

I have a question , did anyone use the PA system on the day? To me it would have been helpful to all concerned if the ground staff or police made announcements. I'm sure this must have happened but it wasn't mentioned in the programme ( unless I missed it).
Just curious to what was said and when because it seemed that large part of the stadium inside and outside didn't have a clue to what was going on. Surely they had stadium PA back then?!
		
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From what I remember, there was nothing, with regards to what was happening inside or outside the ground.

As we all said at the time, if they had announced that the kick off was being delayed 15-30 minutes, there wouldnt have been a problem, and if they had also shut off the tunnel and ferried fans around the side entrances to the terrace.

Only just over half the turnstiles were in use at our end, which also contributed to the crush outside, a major accident on the M62 etc

The only tannoy announcement I remember was the one to say that the game was cancelled, around about an hour after the fans first escaped the pens.


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## Liverbirdie (May 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agree with everything you said here and on the previous post. Watched it with the wife, who although aware of the disaster had zero idea of the extent, and had always been fed the drunk fan line. She was in tears throughout and I couldn't believe quite the levels the police and authorities stooped to. That copper that met Scraton was so brave, especially given the culture back then. 

It's not the end by a long way but a big step forward on a road many thought they would ever travel on. Let's hope following the verdict things can finally move on and the 96 get the justice they deserve
		
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This is why the truth was very important Homer, as sadly millions of people still think it was down to the fans, as they believe what the papers and authorities said.


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## gmc40 (May 23, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.
		
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The sad thing is that some people don't want to watch it. These people aren't interested in what really happened, they are happy "having an opinion" on what they think happened regardless of the facts. Most reasonable people will watch the documentary or read up before commenting, others (who are luckily a very small minority) would prefer to retain their prejudices.


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2016)

I find it very difficult to comment in this thread. 

I will say what I said at the time. "Who decided to open the gates/turnstiles, coz it wasn't the Liverpool fans?"

And more recently, "Who covered it up?"

As a good catholic, "god bless and keep them safe."

Sorry, but its still too painful...


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## sawtooth (May 24, 2016)

After some googling I got an answer of sorts about the use of the PA on the day. 
What I read was that instructions were given (using PA) to the supporters at Leppings Lane to spread out/ go sideways presumably to fill the relative free space in the corner sections. Whoever said that could not have been aware that the crowd could not move left and right due to the high metal fences separating the sections behind the goal. The policeman in the programme who went into the crowd to help also mentioned that he wasn't aware of the fences until he saw that people could not move towards him.

Was there a lot mentioned in the inquest about this ? and why the PA wasn't used more effectively?

The PA ( you would think) should have been the  best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.


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## Liverbirdie (May 24, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			After some googling I got an answer of sorts about the use of the PA on the day. 
What I read was that instructions were given (using PA) to the supporters at Leppings Lane to spread out/ go sideways presumably to fill the relative free space in the corner sections. Whoever said that could not have been aware that the crowd could not move left and right due to the high metal fences separating the sections behind the goal. The policeman in the programme who went into the crowd to help also mentioned that he wasn't aware of the fences until he saw that people could not move towards him.

Was there a lot mentioned in the inquest about this ? and why the PA wasn't used more effectively?

The PA ( you would think) should have been the  best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.
		
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The main problem was that when they let the outside gate open, hundreds entered in a matter of minutes, and within 20 yards of the outside gate is the tunnel, so most headed for this onto an already crowded terrace. Only regular match-goers like myself knew that there were side entrances onto the terrace. If the police had put 6-8 police across the inner gate, telling people to go around, it wouldnt have been a problem. If Duckenfield had pre-warned the police in the inner courtyard to say, I'm opening the outer gate, shut off the tunnel (there may have also been closeable wooden doors, if I remember correctly) this wouldnt have happened. It really was that simple.

I was originally in the pen that most died in, but as I'd been in the seats above the previous year, I knew that the middle pen was overcrowded, so I went into the one next door this year, for some reason. I normally always went to the middle of an end in them days were all the singing was, but didnt this year.

As 3-4 other semis at that venue showed, it had happened before - the difference this time was that a few hundred being let in in one go caused the fatal crush.

The tannoys would have been too late, as people where already in by then.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			...
The PA ( you would think) should have been the  best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.
		
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From my understanding (and it's nowhere near complete!) the lack of awareness (and possibly tactical failures when made aware) of exactly what was happening contributed significantly to the tragedy!

I have little doubt that there will be some reference to 'contributing actions' in the inquest text! Having spent such a long time getting to the bottom of it (I'm meaning the 2 years of actual recent inquest, not the 28 years between the tragedy and this inquest), I would hope it has been covered - and shouldn't need to be postulated about any more!


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## sawtooth (May 24, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			The main problem was that when they let the outside gate open, hundreds entered in a matter of minutes, and within 20 yards of the outside gate is the tunnel, so most headed for this onto an already crowded terrace. Only regular match-goers like myself knew that there were side entrances onto the terrace. If the police had put 6-8 police across the inner gate, telling people to go around, it wouldnt have been a problem. If Duckenfield had pre-warned the police in the inner courtyard to say, I'm opening the outer gate, shut off the tunnel (there may have also been closeable wooden doors, if I remember correctly) this wouldnt have happened. It really was that simple.

I was originally in the pen that most died in, but as I'd been in the seats above the previous year, I knew that the middle pen was overcrowded, so I went into the one next door this year, for some reason. I normally always went to the middle of an end in them days were all the singing was, but didnt this year.

As 3-4 other semis at that venue showed, it had happened before - the difference this time was that a few hundred being let in in one go caused the fatal crush.

The tannoys would have been too late, as people where already in by then.
		
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Thanks Pete, this is obviously a difficult subject so please excuse  the questioning especially as it has all been covered before.

Just cant comprehend why someone didn't pick up the tannoy mic and start pleading with fans to turnaround and walk away from the ground. I take your point that this may have come too late for many but listening to Motson talking over the pictures he and others seemed to know what was going on quite early on.

Beggars belief also that the police had no radios (or very few) so you would have thought if nothing else the tannoy would have helped coordinate their activities.

Don't feel obliged to comment any further but I am genuinely interested in knowing the ins and outs now as a result of watching the documentary.

I won't post on this thread again but if someone can just point me in the direction of the best information resources online then that will be that.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2016)

The reason why no one uses the PA system was because the person watching the CCTV was the same person who ordered the gate to open up and then covered it up . It was Duckenfield who wasn't fit to look after the policing for a football match - he froze , made the wrong choice then cowered away and blamed the fans. He failed to communicate to his officers. 

Remember that up to about 15:20 maybe later the police were in the mind it was hooligans and a pitch invasion - no one was controlling the police so they just formed a cordon whilst fans did their work , same with the Ambulance Service. 

When Duckenfield ordered the gate to be open - not one single person was directing the fans so they are just went straight for the middle two pens, which were already full - the PA system would have been no use because the damage was already done.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf


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## Stuart_C (May 24, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Thanks Pete, this is obviously a difficult subject so please excuse  the questioning especially as it has all been covered before.

Just cant comprehend why someone didn't pick up the tannoy mic and start pleading with fans to turnaround and walk away from the ground. I take your point that this may have come too late for many but listening to Motson talking over the pictures he and others seemed to know what was going on quite early on.

Beggars belief also that the police had no radios (or very few) so you would have thought if nothing else the tannoy would have helped coordinate their activities.

Don't feel obliged to comment any further but I am genuinely interested in knowing the ins and outs now as a result of watching the documentary.

I won't post on this thread again but if someone can just point me in the direction of the best information resources online then that will be that.
		
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The Hillsborough Independant Panel  report is freely available online, Prof Scraton has a book out published in the late 90's and what he wrote then is what has been proved to be correct.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 28, 2017)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/news.s...-criminal-charges-against-six-people-10929606

At last a positive step towards people being made to be responsible for innocents dying


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## Stuart_C (Jun 28, 2017)

Great news. I'll refrain from any more comment on this matter.

Here's the charges "Sir" Norman Bettison former Merseyside police chief will be facing.

*STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 24th day of October 1998, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification, wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him, namely by untruthfully describing his role in the response of the South Yorkshire Police Force to the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster to Sir David O'Dowd as 'peripheral'.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on the 2nd day of November 1998, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification, wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him, namely by untruthfully asserting in a statement made to the Merseyside Police Authority that he had "never attempted to shift blame onto the shoulders of Liverpool supporters" for the Hillsborough Stadium disaster

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 13th day of September 2012, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him namely by causing, permitting or suffering a press release to be issued in his name which untruthfully asserted that he had "never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private" than that the behaviour of supporters of Liverpool Football Club had not caused the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 14th day of September 2012, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him namely by causing, permitting or suffering a press release to be issued in his name which untruthfully asserted he had never 'besmirched' supporters of Liverpool Football Club in relation to the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster.
(As a common law offence, this carries a maximum sentence of imprisonment for life).*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 28, 2017)

Today is a good day in the fight for justice for the 96.

God bless them and their families.


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## IanM (Jun 28, 2017)

Being in my 50s I remember how appallingly football matches were policed in those days.  You explain watching football from a cage to the modern Prem fan raised on all seated grounds they look at you bizarrely.  I endured a few near misses myself in the 80s at several grounds...there for the grace of god....

.... the fight goes on for the families... but one step nearer


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Today is a good day in the fight for justice for the 96.

God bless them and their families.
		
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And long overdue.

Well done to all those in the fight for justice. The stamina and strength of character in the face of so much abuse is very humbling.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2017)

So pleased for everyone that has been a long, arduous road to get justice for their lost ones. It won't replace the hurt and sense of loss but hopefully those that contributed to this shocking (and preventable) disaster are finally held accountable


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## chrisd (Jun 28, 2017)

About time, I just hope it isn't too long before they appear in court


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2017)

chrisd said:



			About time, I just hope it isn't too long before they appear in court
		
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Five of the six will be appearing in front of magistrates court on 9th August. The other one (David Duckenfield the chief supt) isn't in court on that date. Not sure why, but possibly that with his charges including manslaughter it can't be dealt with at magistrates court and would need a higher court to preside.


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## Papas1982 (Jun 28, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Five of the six will be appearing in front of magistrates court on 9th August. The other one (David Duckenfield the chief supt) isn't in court on that date. Not sure why, but possibly that with his charges including manslaughter it can't be dealt with at magistrates court and would need a higher court to preside.
		
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They covered this on sky.

He has been charged previously in a private pursuit of justice and the judge at the time (having been found innocent) ruled that he couldn't be retried. Currently the prosecution is getting that ruling quashed.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2017)

Papas1982 said:



			They covered this on sky.

He has been charged previously in a private pursuit of justice and the judge at the time (having been found innocent) ruled that he couldn't be retried. Currently the prosecution is getting that ruling quashed.
		
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Ah OK cheers. Couldn't find anything on the BBC news site as to the reasons why. Hopefully there will be no legal reasons that the ruling can't be quashed.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 29, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Five of the six will be appearing in front of magistrates court on 9th August. The other one (David Duckenfield the chief supt) isn't in court on that date. Not sure why, but possibly that with his charges including manslaughter it can't be dealt with at magistrates court and would need a higher court to preside.
		
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I think and I could be wrong, but initially you are charged at magistrates court and if the charges are to great for said court it is referred onto Crown court.


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## Kellfire (Apr 3, 2019)

Duckenfield remains innocent in a legal sense but Graham Mackrell found guilty and awaiting sentencing.


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