# Virtuocity - stack and tilt swing.................



## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

I looked at your iron swing from the front......




Swing centers.....

Ok, mate, when we set up to the ball we have 2 swing centers, one is at the top of our chest (just below our top button) and the other is appox our belt buckle.

So here's a sequence... I'll try to explain it.... [click the pic to enlarge]




If we set up to a ball in the *middle of our stance* both our swing centers would be directly aligned above the ball (A)

In stack and tilt we move BOTH the swing centers forward TOGETHER (B) so they are *still vertical* but just slightly in front of the ball... 2 inches would be more than enough. This puts a little more weight onto the left side but you are still upright... your left hip AND chest are just slightly bumped to the left, *we don't LEAN,* and because we have moved our swing centers forward our hands would also now be 2 inches in front of the ball (the ball hasn't moved but we have!) so we would have a little bit of forward shaft lean visible (towards the target).

You do (C) ....you have bumped your left hip but you have also started to lean your upper body towards the target...(your upper swing center is too far left) this puts your weight too far left and makes your shoulders point to the left of target (open shoulders). So at address you look like you are leaning towards the target. As per the pic your head also starts to get ahead of your hips and very much in front of the ball.

With me so far?


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

Does anyone remember David Icke?


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## DelB (Nov 7, 2012)

Couldn't this have been done by PM?


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Does anyone remember David Icke? 

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I bet he kept butting into threads on S&T too? :ears:


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

DelB said:



			Couldn't this have been done by PM?
		
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No. Why should it?

He asked me and I'm helping. If I do stuff by PM I have to delete it as my inbox fills up... so I post here so that there will be a permanent record..... for both of us.....


*IS THAT OK WITH YOU????? *


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## virtuocity (Nov 7, 2012)

Got it so far!  

Thanks for this.  I can only imagine how horrible it is to take up one whole thread on the forum to discuss one member's S&T journey.  But now you have taken 30 seconds to read the initial post and double that time to reply to it, I am safe in the knowledge that you won't subject yourself to this thread again.


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## virtuocity (Nov 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			2 inches would be more than enough.
		
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That's what SHE said.


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## rosecott (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Does anyone remember David Icke? 

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You may not remember, Bob, but I did my best.

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?35008-Stack-and-tilt-resistance-movement


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I bet he kept butting into threads on S&T too? :ears:
		
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No, but his favourite quote is 
"Exposing the dreamworld we believe to be real":whoo:

Before you start James, I thought the weight started 60-40 on the front foot so your centres would be in front of the ball, or has that changed?


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Before you start James, I thought the weight started 60-40 on the front foot so your centres would be in front of the ball, or has that changed?
		
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You mean like I said here... ????




			In stack and tilt we move BOTH the swing centers forward TOGETHER (B) so they are *still vertical* but just slightly in front of the ball... 2 inches would be more than enough. This puts a little more weight onto the left side but you are still upright
		
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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

You mean like I said here... ????
		
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No
You said 



			If we set up to a ball in the *middle of our stance* both our swing centers would be directly aligned above the ball (A)
		
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Now, I thought the weight started in front of the ball at address 60/40 on your front foot.
PS sorry, I forgot, it's just the lower of the 2 upper centres that should be forward


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

Ok, back to Virtuocity.....


So we've established your upper center is leaned too far ahead of the ball at address... so on to the downswing...





In the stack and tilt downswing and in to impact we go from position (B), that we showed was the correct one, to position (D) where the hips (lower center) move towards the target whilst the upper center stays where it was at address... [click the pic to enlarge it]

You are not going from (B) to (D), you are going from (C) to (E) where you don't bump your hips (lower center) towards the target but your upper center moves even more forward instead of staying more back.

...and that leaves you looking like this.....




The head has gone waaay to far ahead of the ball and your shoulders are very open to the target (you're going to cut across the ball and slice it).... you have a spine tilt towards the target which will make you swing downwards very steeply downwards very steeply (deep divots and skying your fairways and woods off a teepeg)

So you need to consider trying to keep your head back a little more at set up (try and stack your centers on top of each other like picture B) and let the hips go more forward in the downswing (picture D) so your head doesn't get ahead of them.

When your head is that far forward you can't straighten your left leg as your spine is tilted forward and your leg is taking the entire weight of your hips, torso and head... whilst trying to hit a ball, not easy. your instructor was on the right page... but the wrong idea.. it's not about opening your hips quicker it's about keeping the upper center back more, allowing the hips to slide towards target and EXTEND (straighten).

Remember the name of the game with the standard S&T swing is to hit a draw... so the club MUST approach the ball from the inside, we can deal with that but you need to try and sort out your centers first as your head is just going low and left and that's an OTT (over the top) move :thup:.

As you sort out your centers it should help you to swing from the inside (the hips bumping towards target help drop the club to the inside), you should NEVER be hitting an iron and thinking "I'm going to fade this one"...... well not until you've learned the draw!!! So a draw for everything to start with, OK?


:thup:


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			No
You said 


Now, I thought the weight started in front of the ball at address 60/40 on your front foot.
PS sorry, I forgot, it's just the lower of the 2 upper centres that should be forward
		
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Eh? Did you read my post? It says *IF* we set up to a ball in the middle.... it then goes on to describe what we'll do in the S&T address with the swing centers. Is it really that confusing Bob? I thought it was the S&T part that was confusing for you... not the READING part


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Eh? Did you read my post? It says *IF* we set up to a ball in the middle.... it then goes on to describe what we'll do in the S&T address with the swing centers. Is it really that confusing Bob? I thought it was the S&T part that was confusing for you... not the READING part 

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Right, I thought you meant  fig A was the address position and B was you moving forward during the backswing.


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## JustOne (Nov 7, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Right, I thought you meant  fig A was the address position and B was you moving forward during the backswing.
		
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Can you post me some of those yummy mint choc brownies that you made?


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## virtuocity (Nov 7, 2012)

Brilliant stuff James.  I will work on these things and report back.

Yoodaman.


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## CMAC (Nov 8, 2012)

having read this and realising virtuocity is very very new to golf, isnt there a danger here of analyses paralyses


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## chrisd (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm totally confused now cos I've tried these swing positions and one of my hips has come unscrewed!!


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I'm totally confused now cos I've tried these swing positions and one of my hips has come unscrewed!!
		
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You've obviously got your centres wrong.
The upper centre stays above the ball, the lower upper centre is the one that moves forward of centre and the lower centre also stays level with the ball and overall central.
Any questions?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			You've obviously got your centres wrong.
The upper centre stays above the ball, the lower upper centre is the one  that moves forward of centre and the lower centre also stays level with  the ball and overall central.
Any questions?

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Yes.   Does David Ike think James is one of the Lizard people?


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## JustOne (Nov 8, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			having read this and realising virtuocity is very very new to golf, isnt there a danger here of analyses paralyses
		
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Funny enough the screen shot of his impact position was taken from a video where his PGA PRO was telling him (amongst other things) that he's over the top with his swing path, needs to clear the left side, extend the legs, where the clubface should be pointing... and more.

Not only would that be equally as hard to understand (he might not even understand what she was talking about) but he'd still have to grasp why those things are important, what the fixes are and how to implement them within his swing... *I don't see the difference*?

I've explained what and why and how, I think it's pretty clear instead of just hitting him with jargon, sending him home, and leaving him Â£40 lighter in the pocket dept.


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## Foxholer (Nov 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			You've obviously got your centres wrong.
The upper centre stays above the ball, the lower upper centre is the one that moves forward of centre and the lower centre also stays level with the ball and overall central.
*Any questions*?

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Yes. What does 'Looks a bit like S&T to me so I'm out' REALLY mean?


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## JustOne (Nov 8, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Yes. What does 'Looks a bit like S&T to me so I'm out' REALLY mean? 

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Definition: {looks like stack and tilt so I'm out} - Sentence - To lie through your teeth that you are not interested and will stay away (see also: bullsh*t,... liar liar pants on fire,... and Don't worry love, this won't hurt much!!.
Common variations of this sentence include "Looks like stack and tilt, I'm off to do cooking" and "I've had enough of this but you need a centered swing and to be tilted towards the ball".


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## chrisd (Nov 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			You've obviously got your centres wrong.
The upper centre stays above the ball, the lower upper centre is the one that moves forward of centre and the lower centre also stays level with the ball and overall central.
Any questions?

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How do you re-screw a hip back in?


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			Yes. What does 'Looks a bit like S&T to me so I'm out' REALLY mean? 

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It meant that I saw parts of his swing that suggested to me he was trying to implement S&T.
I'm not authorised to teach S&T so said I was out.
4 mins later in the very next post, Alex said 




			I have had no S&T coaching or conversations or watched any videos... I AM INOCENT BOSS!!!
		
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By that I assumed he wasnt trying S&T.
Then he asked




			I would value your opinion Bob, what makes it look like S&T?
		
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So I replied.

Has it come to the stage where I have to justify everything I say when I try and help people?
If so, I really am out of here


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## JustOne (Nov 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Has it come to the stage where I have to justify everything I say when I try and help people?
		
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Try being me! 

(I'm used to it now though and mostly laugh out loud. This thread alone contains at least 10 p*ss takes and I reckon it's not done yet )


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## chrisd (Nov 8, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Try being me! 

(I'm used to it now though and mostly laugh out loud. This thread alone contains at least 10 p*ss takes and I reckon it's not done yet )

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Where's Mark Clattenberg when you need a referee!


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## JustOne (Nov 8, 2012)

Don't want Bob getting upset....

I like the cantankerous ol' git and don't mind his continual argumentativeness


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## Foxholer (Nov 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			It meant that I saw parts of his swing that suggested to me he was trying to implement S&T.
I'm not authorised to teach S&T so said I was out.
4 mins later in the very next post, Alex said 



By that I assumed he wasnt trying S&T.
Then he asked



So I replied.

Has it come to the stage where I have to justify everything I say when I try and help people?
If so, I really am out of here
		
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Well as far as I can see, THIS thread REALLY IS about S&T.

I think the title even has a hint!

BTW. My personal view - and it's certainly not a professional opinion - is that the S&T swing is very risky approach for relative newcomers to the game. It seems to me that there are too many potentially dangerous moves required, both from actually getting the technique wrong and from causing damage to the body!


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## JustOne (Nov 8, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			..and from causing damage to the body!
		
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Justify that comment.


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## chrisd (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm watching the golf from the USA and they have just said that Charlie Wi is using S & T


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Try being me! 

(I'm used to it now though and mostly laugh out loud. This thread alone contains at least 10 p*ss takes and I reckon it's not done yet )

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James, I dont happen to agree with David Ike that you are one of the reptillian people.  Actually I dont even know if David Ike thinks you are one.   I think Ed Milliband and Lembit Opik are though.


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Justify that comment.
		
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Here's a link to an article from someone I consider as independent/unbiased as it can get. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm

There are other references available, but they tend to be from 'competing' strategies, so I consider them 'biased'.

And that link relates to a skilled exponent. The 'causing damage' is more likely to happen with we hackers! I am certainly aware that repeatedly belting the ground at 80mph or more can do damage if the wrong equipment is used, or the body is not properly aligned/braced etc.


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## JustOne (Nov 9, 2012)

Yeh, I've read that before Foxy and really like the way the guy writes.

When it comes to what you say "causing damage to the body" he goes on to write..




			There is no doubt in my mind that the S&T swing can work well from a geometrical/mechanical perspective, but I believe that the required biomechanical movements occurring at the level of the lumbar spine are not natural, and I believe that they are likely to predispose to chronic back problems over the long-term (40-60 year time period).
		
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So that's a *40-60yr* time period he said, agreed? 
Now I wonder how many people have ALREADY hurt their back playing golf using a TRADITIONAL type swing that haven't yet played golf for 40yrs?

I have heard figures along the lines of there are 10 million golfers in the world of which 6 million ALREADY have bad backs - how true that figure is I don't know.... and I can't find it at the moment to verify... but there surely ARE a lot of golfers who already suffer with a bad back and let's face it, I bet they're not stack and tilt players.

I'm not going to waffle on but I find your argument (or point of view) particularly weak and unfounded. There are TOP back specialists who have conceeded that the S&T swing puts less strain on the back than a conventional style swing (eg: 2 plane swing with an aggressive hip rotation).


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## virtuocity (Nov 9, 2012)

James- thanks again for the advice so far.  Best round ever today.

Hit 200 range balls and pulled a heavy bag round a soggy 9 hole track (including a 100 yard dash back down the fairway to collect a headcover that fell out my bag!) and my back feels pretty good.  Not looking forward to 60 years down the line though.


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I'm not going to waffle on but I find your argument (or point of view) particularly weak and unfounded. There are TOP back specialists who have conceeded that the S&T swing puts less strain on the back than a conventional style swing (eg: 2 plane swing with an aggressive hip rotation).
		
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Weak perhaps - for experienced golfers, but not newcomers imo - but certainly not unfounded - as the evidence is there! I agree that the entire golf swing can be 'dangerous'. 

I agree that an aggressive hip turn is likewise 'un-naturally stressful' - and don't believe Rory McIlroy can sustain his for much longer, It does, however, depend on what the definition of 'aggressive' is! 

Strangely, perhaps not so, Golf has actually improved my dodgy back, though other sports related injuries don't help!


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## G1BB0 (Nov 12, 2012)

Virtuocity, just found a new blog posting on Daz Hopwoods youtube, quite interesting without being over technical

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut43SMsMlBw

(excuse the crappy sound)


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## virtuocity (Nov 12, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			Virtuocity, just found a new blog posting on Daz Hopwoods youtube, quite interesting without being over technical

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut43SMsMlBw

(excuse the crappy sound)
		
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Cheers!!!  Like his vids.  Will have a look when Mrs V shuts the TV off!


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## virtuocity (Nov 21, 2012)

Played well today on the 9 holes.  Would have been another personal best if I hadn't ruined my card with a 7 on a par 3.

I'm concentrating on getting the downswing coming down on the inside, which means I can now use my 7 iron (unlike my complaint last week).

Quick question- through impact, should I be thinking about the club continuing down the one path (i.e 2 o'clock from the tee facing the hole) or let it come round in a circle?  Sorry if I haven't explained myself well.

Oh- and I got a few draws off my 6 iron, 2 and 5 hybrid!  After years of slicing, it's really a gutsy move for me to have the club slightly open at address.


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## JustOne (Nov 21, 2012)

Through impact you should be thinking 'am I into my left side' and the swing path will take care of itself. You shouldn't be making a concious effort to swing 'out' at the ball.

When you set up (the blue arc) the ball is in the middle of your stance... when you have moved into your left side the WHOLE ARC has now moved with you a little to the left (the red arc) and as you can see you will now hit the ball from the inside. [click pic to enlarge...]




(Note: As I said before you have to not let your head/upper body go overly forwards though, 'getting into your left' side doesn't mean getting your upper body ahead of the ball, it means getting your thighs, butt and gut to go left ).


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks matey!  VERY glad you mentioned keeping the upper body over the ball.  When I move left, I tend to move everything with it.  My sizeable frame often forces me to stumble forward!!!

Getting there each day at a time JO!


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

James, I have a question on the S&T Pattern if you have a mo' (Sorry for the hijack Virtuocity)

From what I read of the pattern adjusting the flight as prescribed in the book comes from a  combination of grip and ball position?

Would it be fair to say:

For a Fade - Everything moves to the left - Aim Left of the target, weaken grip slightly, move ball position fractionally forward?

For a Draw - Everything moves to the right - Aim to the right of target, strengthen grip slightly, move ball position fractionally back?

Does that sound about right, or have I missed the point?


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

*All* shots (apart from when the ball is tee'd up) are played from the back side of the circle. If you move the ball forward how are you going to hit it before the club hits the ground?

actually give me a minute and I'll rewrite that in something that's more understandable..........


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



*All* shots (apart from when the ball is tee'd up) are played from the back side of the circle. If you move the ball forward how are you going to hit it before the club hits the ground?
		
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I don't mean, as an example, move the ball from middle stance to inside heel. I mean a ball width maybe 2 forward.

I understand that the base line flight for the pattern is a push draw, which as you say plays on the back side of the circle, but what if I want to fade the ball for a specific shot as opposed to push draw


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

It's a push-fade.

If you were standing *square* the ball would carve off into the 1st cut on the right... so let's say you were playing to a flag on the right of a green... you'd line up roughly at the middle of the green (maybe left of center) and the ball would fade to the right edge of the green.

here it is in action by the MASTER... lined up over the fountain, playing to the extreme right edge of the green with a fade (somewhere near that bunker on the right)

[video=youtube;hRbVoU9cDZk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRbVoU9cDZk[/video]


If you were playing to a flag in the middle of a green then you'd line up more left.... and if for some reason (???) you wanted to fade a shot to a left pin position then you'd need to line up even more left.

With a fade the ball starts RIGHT... and goes more right. People get confused as they think the ball starts LEFT, probably as that's what you see at the range and to a degree what we've been taught by poor instruction.


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It's a push-fade.

If you were standing *square* the ball would carve off into the 1st cut on the right... so let's say you were playing to a flag on the right of a green... you'd line up roughly at the middle of the green (maybe left of center) and the ball would fade to the right edge of the green.

here it is in action by the MASTER... lined up over the fountain, playing to the extreme right edge of the green with a fade (somewhere near that bunker on the right)

[video=youtube;hRbVoU9cDZk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRbVoU9cDZk[/video]


If you were playing to a flag in the middle of a green then you'd line up more left.... and if for some reason (???) you wanted to fade a shot to a left pin position then you'd need to line up even more left.

With a fade the ball starts RIGHT... and goes more right. People get confused as they think the ball starts LEFT, probably as that's what you see at the range and to a degree what we've been taught by poor instruction.
		
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Cheers fella :thup:


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

The thing that makes the ball fade is the difference between the face and the path... if you want the ball to fade then you must control the path to be more left than the face, you can do this by aiming more left with your entire body... whilst the face still aims in the original spot, no need to weaken your grip... you just allow the face to be more open to your stance then take you 'normal' grip.

When you open your stance, *generally* the ball moves further back! this is fine as it gives the clubface less time to close!!! which is what you want with a fade, BUT just be aware that it doesn't go too far back else you'll get really steep. I'd say the crucial part is understanding the releationships that happen (and how they change) between club face, path and ball position when you try and 'shape' a shot.


NB:

The more forward you move a ball in your stance the more likely you are to hit the ground before you get the club to the ball.. as you've reduced the chance of getting your low point IN FRONT of the ball with your weight shift.

The more BACK you move the ball the better the chances of hitting it... *too far back* though and you either increase your chances of topping it... or coming down too steep.


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## One Planer (Nov 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The thing that makes the ball fade is the difference between the face and the path... if you want the ball to fade then you must control the path to be more left than the face, you can do this by aiming more left with your entire body... whilst the face still aims in the original spot, no need to weaken your grip... you just allow the face to be more open to your stance then take you 'normal' grip.

When you open your stance, *generally* the ball moves further back! this is fine as it gives the clubface less time to close!!! which is what you want with a fade, BUT just be aware that it doesn't go too far back else you'll get really steep. I'd say the crucial part is understanding the releationships that happen (and how they change) between club face, path and ball position when you try and 'shape' a shot.


NB:

The more forward you move a ball in your stance the more likely you are to hit the ground before you get the club to the ball.. as you've reduced the chance of getting your low point IN FRONT of the ball with your weight shift.

The more BACK you move the ball the better the chances of hitting it... *too far back* though and you either increase your chances of topping it... or coming down too steep.
		
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So how I was doing it before (Push fade) was right, just not aiming my body far enough left.

Top man James. Thanks :thup:

Edit: Again, sorry for the hijack Virtuocity


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

I'd say it was *most important* when trying to hit a fade that you pay special attention to your shoulders... they need to be aimed as left as your stance and hips.... very often someone will open their stance but their shoulders will remain straight... and that's where the double-cross will come from... just ask Oddsocks! 

Aim everything left... apart from the clubface... and swing along the line of your toes as hard as you like. The ball should start to the RIGHT of your toeline, as that's where the face is pointing.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2012)

Not a hijack- feel free!

I will ignore all of the above posts for now, as it is all too confusing for me!  I'm still trying to pick up the basics.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2012)

Just been watching the DVD which talks in depth about The Flying Wedge.  Took me 3 minutes to realise it wasn't referring to a PW.  Doh!

However, very interesting!

My main flaws are hitting the ground before the ball and chicken wing.  I always uncock my wrists just before impact.  

Just before I practice tomorrow, I want to make sure I'm right.  I need to MAINTAIN the flying wedge until after the follow through, right?


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Just before I practice tomorrow, I want to make sure I'm right.  I need to MAINTAIN the flying wedge until after the follow through, right?
		
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If you're doing it as a drill then it isn't full swings... so yes you'd maintain it right throughout your shortened practice swing.


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2012)

Hmmm the DVD suggests to maintain it throughout full swings.  Thoughts?


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## JustOne (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes you do, there's no need to release the club head... only the arms, but if you're doing it as a drill then just perform the drill to start with. If you want to move up to full swings straight away then that's up to you. If you had a pro standing next to you on the range he'd get you to work on the drill before taking you to full swings.. as I'm not a pro, do what you like!!!!!!!!!!!!  hahaha! <see what I did there?> 

I'll try and see if I can knock up a vid for you over the weekend :thup:


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## virtuocity (Nov 22, 2012)

Ahhhhhh I geddit now.  Will start off with some short swings first.  I thought that you meant that the flying wedge should only be used for practice swings and half swings. 

Will let you know how I get on.  I know you're just itching for my next update(!)


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

I've been working hard on the 'flying wedge' stuff with very good results.  Although, I noticed I was thinning my wedges causing them to go very long, 10 inches above ground level over the other side of the green.

I then realised (on hole 6 of 9 today) that I wasn't doing 'the flying wedge' with these and now my short game has improved ten-fold.   Hitting the range tomorrow to really work on this as it's really killing my scores.

Looking at my stats, I worked out that if I could hit the green every time from a range of 50-100 yards then I would cut 6 or 7 shots off my 9 hole round (potentially 12 shots off of an 18 hole round), which would see me meet my 2013 target of 18 handicap.


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## Foxholer (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Just been watching the DVD which talks in depth about The Flying Wedge.  Took me 3 minutes to realise it wasn't referring to a PW.  Doh!
		
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I thought it was the cost of S&T (professional) instruction! You may have worked around that one with JO!

Just think how you are going to enjoy 'Power Accumulators'!

Hope it's going well. You seem to be enjoying the process.


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## One Planer (Nov 27, 2012)

Keep at it Virt' It'll soon come together for you.

The one tip I'll give you is don't change everything at once, or try and incorparte it too quickly.

I took up the pattern at the end of my first season. At the time I was off 26 (26.4).

A lot of the pattern I already (Loosely) did, couple that with the fact I'd only been playing for about 6 months, so for me moving to the pattern was a little easier. In the following 2 full season I've dropped from 26 to my current level of 16 (15.7).

You'll get there fella. Stick at it :thup:


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I thought it was the cost of S&T (professional) instruction! You may have worked around that one with JO!

Just think how you are going to enjoy 'Power Accumulators'!

Hope it's going well. You seem to be enjoying the process.
		
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I'm concentrating on the House of The Flying Wedge before looking at all the accumulator stuff!!!

When I started golf at the end of the summer, I probably hit 2 duff shots (i.e. shots which either shank or trundle 30 yards from its original position) a hole.  Now this is down to around 1 every 3 holes.  It's difficult when you're surrounded by low handicappers on the course (and this forum) to keep in mind that it will take a while before I will be a good golfer, so I'm trying my best to enjoy the minimisation of errors and celebrate just getting a _good connection on the ball_.

I'm going to increase my efforts to improve the above phrase in italics over the winter as I undergo an intensive learning process of the short game (100 yards and in).  Seems preposterous that I'm taking on average 4.5 shots from a range of 150 yards from the hole.

I can see this part of my game helping meet my 2013 goal.

With my swing comfortable and repeatable, I then plan on getting some extra distance from my clubs.  My drives are getting me 190-210 yards in distance which I can survive with over the next year as long as I see my shots getting more accurate over time.  But if I'm ever going to be a single figure golfer (says the man who always said that an 18 handicap would be just fine) then I'm going to really learn how to cover 400 yards with 2 swings of a bat.  

Enjoying it?  You bet.



(enter JO to tell me all of the above is rubbish hahahah)


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Keep at it Virt' It'll soon come together for you.

The one tip I'll give you is don't change everything at once, or try and incorparte it too quickly.

I took up the pattern at the end of my first season. At the time I was off 26 (26.4).

A lot of the pattern I already (Loosely) did, couple that with the fact I'd only been playing for about 6 months, so for me moving to the pattern was a little easier. In the following 2 full season I've dropped from 26 to my current level of 16 (15.7).

You'll get there fella. Stick at it :thup:
		
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Thanks Gareth.  Nice shooting over 2.5 years mate.

Out of interest- what part of your game would get you to a handicap of, say, 10?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			I've been working hard on the 'flying wedge' stuff with very good results.  Although, I noticed I was thinning my wedges causing them to go very long, 10 inches above ground level over the other side of the green.

I then realised (on hole 6 of 9 today) that I wasn't doing 'the flying wedge' with these and now my short game has improved ten-fold.   Hitting the range tomorrow to really work on this as it's really killing my scores.

Looking at my stats, I worked out that if I could hit the green every time from a range of 50-100 yards then I would cut 6 or 7 shots off my 9 hole round (potentially 12 shots off of an 18 hole round), which would see me meet my 2013 target of 18 handicap.
		
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Once you get down to 18 you can then change to a conventional swing and REALLY get good at this game


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## One Planer (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Thanks Gareth.  Nice shooting over 2.5 years mate.

Out of interest- what part of your game would get you to a handicap of, say, 10?
		
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Driving. Pure and simple.

I can hit my fairway woods well enough but very hit and miss with the driver. 

If I can get this something like consistant, then I think that'll help no end.

Like I said in my last post, I'm in no rush. I'm in this game for the long haul


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

drive4show said:



			Once you get down to 18 you can then change to a conventional swing and REALLY get good at this game    

Click to expand...

No ta.  I'll stick to the swing pattern that makes me enjoy the game rather than the one that makes me want to give up.


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Driving. Pure and simple.

I can hit my fairway woods well enough but very hit and miss with the driver. 

If I can get this something like consistant, then I think that'll help no end.

Like I said in my last post, I'm in no rush. I'm in this game for the long haul
		
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Would be very interested in seeing a video of your swing, G.  

You too JO.


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## One Planer (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Would be very interested in seeing a video of your swing, G.
		
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PM Sent :thup:


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## Region3 (Nov 27, 2012)

Have you considered running shots in from close range?

A guy I play with takes his 8 iron for anything inside about 80yds, and pitches it 10-20yds short and lets it run on. He's very good at it and plays off 12 and he only hits his driver 220 tops.

The main advantage is that thin shots will still end up roundabout the same distance.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

from nearly 2yrs back..... (9-iron draw)

[video=youtube;kvwpkXNOJ48]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvwpkXNOJ48[/video]

carrying the bunker.... (driver fade)

[video=youtube;km_oqywyqi8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km_oqywyqi8[/video]

Couple of slow mo swings in my profile.


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

Region3 said:



			Have you considered running shots in from close range?
		
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Tried it a week ago when it was quiet on the course (hit 3 balls from short range).  Obviously inconsistent results, particularly 'cos the ground was sodden.  I think it's something to work on at the range over the winter and utilise it as the course dries out.

I used a 7 iron.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			(enter JO to tell me all of the above is rubbish hahahah)
		
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Nope, sounds like you have a plan. Getting to 18 is a good goal... although as you said 18 will never be enough if you get there. Interesting to see you're already working on course management decisions.

Being enthusiastic to work on your game during the Winter is a big plus. Standing over a ball and thinking "I don't care how far this goes I'm just not going to duff it" is a good swing thought... then just hit it with a decent swing that leaves your feet IN your shoes.


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Interesting to see you're already working on course management decisions.
		
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I'm interested to know why you find it interesting?

Thanks for the vids- particularly the drive (MASHED POTATOES).  340 yards?


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

I must admit I use the Stack & Tilt method sometimes, only when I need a #2 out on the course.


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## virtuocity (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			I must admit I use the Stack & Tilt method sometimes, only when I need a #2 out on the course.
		
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Awful banter!

JO- add this to "The Official Stack and Tilt Joke Book".  Out Xmas 2013.


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## thecraw (Nov 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Awful banter!

JO- add this to "The Official Stack and Tilt Joke Book".  Out Xmas 2013.
		
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Might as well add Bob Torrance's one as well.

"son keep that up and the only stacking you'll be doing is the shelves in Tesco!"


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

thecraw said:



			might as well add bob torrance's one as well.

"son keep that up and the only stacking you'll be doing is the shelves in tesco!"
		
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pmsl......


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Might as well add Bob Torrance's one as well.

"son keep that up and the only stacking you'll be doing is the shelves in Tesco!"
		
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I doubt he said that seeing as he can hardly speak a word......

it was probably "son key ta p nd t oony stack yoobedoo is t shefs in teskos".



Anyway... how's your h/cap doing Craw? Turned pro with the swing you're using.... or still working for a living? I thought you were about to quit the game last month???????


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I doubt he said that seeing as he can hardly speak a word......

it was probably "son key ta p nd t oony stack yoobedoo is t shefs in teskos".



Anyway... how's your h/cap doing Craw? Turned pro with the swing you're using.... or still working for a living? I thought you were about to quit the game last month???????
		
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Can I ask what your handicap is, I take it you must be of at least scratch if you give out the sort of advice you do.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

My lowest was 1 h/cap, best round 4 under par was only 2yrs ago so I've not forgotten everything just yet. Current h/cap is 6.4 which I'm happy with seeing as I can hardly walk some days. Is h/cap important for KNOWING or PLAYING?

So I'll ask you a question; I see you are 5/hcap, is that your lowest or have you played better? and off 5 h/cap are YOU able to judge what is a good swing? You seem to slag off S&T a fair bit so clearly you think your opinion is better than some ofther more qualified instructors than yourself.. or am I mistaken?

Our very own Sam Quirke is a qualified pro and he doesn't slag off S&T


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			My lowest was 1 h/cap, best round 4 under par was only 2yrs ago so I've not forgotten everything just yet. Current h/cap is 6.4 which I'm happy with seeing as I can hardly walk some days. Is h/cap important for KNOWING or PLAYING?
		
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Just interested as to what you played off I mean I would always take advice from a Pro or even someone who is better than me but would question advice given from someone who had a higher handicap, no offence intended.

Just seen your edited post, lowest was 4 and still work in progress.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Just interested as to what you played off I mean I would always take advice from a Pro or even someone who is better than me but would question advice given from someone who had a higher handicap, no offence intended.
		
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I've had this discussion many times... we have a pro called Bob on the forum, very much liked and very much listened to... if he had an accident and could no longer walk or shoot under 90 would you not listen to his advice?

If (for example) you found out he hadn't gone round in less than 80 for the past 25yrs would it matter as his h/cap is technically scratch seeing as he's a pro.

Personally I would have a lesson from a guy in a wheelchair without giving it a second thought so their ability to actually get the ball around the course doesn't matter... or does it? I would rather they were able to see what needed work in MY swing and I couldn't give a stuff about theirs.

Butch Harmon now plays off about 13 h/cap and I'd defo get a lesson from him... well I would if he taught a decent swing


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I've had this discussion many times... we have a pro called Bob on the forum, very much liked and very much listened to... if he had an accident and could no longer walk or shoot under 90 would you not listen to his advice?

If (for example) you found out he hadn't gone round in less than 80 for the past 25yrs would it matter as his h/cap is technically scratch seeing as he's a pro.

Personally I would have a lesson from a guy in a wheelchair without giving it a second thought so their ability to actually get the ball around the course doesn't matter... or does it? I would rather they were able to see what needed work in MY swing and I couldn't give a stuff about theirs.

Butch Harmon now plays off about 13 h/cap and I'd defo get a lesson from him... well I would if he taught a decent swing 

Click to expand...

Each to their own but I will never be convinced by S&T but notice there are a few guys on here who say they use it, can they really be sure they are using it?

Anyway I will keep an eye on their handicaps and see if they improve, if someone is using it and let's say they currently play off 16 then what time scale would you expect them to get down to say 8 ot 9.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Each to their own but I will never be convinced by S&T but notice there are a few guys on here who say they use it, can they really be sure they are using it?
		
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As opposed to what... being sure that they have no idea what they're using? 

You don't have to be 100% with ANY swing so I'm not sure I get your point there. 

It's my opinion that if someone TRIES to incorporate the elements of S&T into their swing that they WILL get better.... so in terms of the last part of your question it would depend on how often they play/practice and to a degree how they are physically. I took up the game and got to 4 h/cap inside 18months, I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do that... some may never get to single figures regardless of what swing they use... you have to be able to manage your game.... and putt 

If someone CAPABLE wanted to put in the practice I'd suggest they could drop from 16 to 6 within a year.




How long have you been playing and how much did your h/cap come down this year with the swing you're using/practicing?


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			As opposed to what... being sure that they have no idea what they're using? 

You don't have to be 100% with ANY swing so I'm not sure I get your point there. 

It's my opinion that if someone TRIES to incorporate the elements of S&T into their swing that they WILL get better.... so in terms of the last part of your question it would depend on how often they play/practice and to a degree how they are physically. I took up the game and got to 4 h/cap inside 18months, I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do that... some may never get to single figures regardless of what swing they use... you have to be able to manage your game.... and putt 

If someone CAPABLE wanted to put in the practice I'd suggest they could drop from 16 to 6 within a year.




How long have you been playing and how much did your h/cap come down this year with the swing you're using/practicing?
		
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I have been floating arround 5 for a few years now, I don't do practise. Just turn up on the tee and swing at the ball then go after it again.


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			I have been floating arround 5 for a few years now, I don't do practise. Just turn up on the tee and swing at the ball then go after it again.
		
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Me too.... back hurts too much and need an op on my shoulder.

So you didn't come down at all this year? but pretty quick off the blocks in the critique stakes? 

Ah, I'm just pullin' yer chain on the basis that you're ready to knock something that you really know nothing about whilst not really doing that well yourself....

I don't mean anything by it and wish you the best for 2013.... whatever swing you choose to use or moan about.


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## Bomber69 (Nov 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Me too.... back hurts too much and need an op on my shoulder.

So you didn't come down at all this year? but pretty quick off the blocks in the critique stakes? 

Ah, I'm just pullin' yer chain on the basis that you're ready to knock something that you really know nothing about whilst not really doing that well yourself....

I don't mean anything by it and wish you the best for 2013.... whatever swing you choose to use or moan about.
		
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Oh I did come down a good few notches but then got a few .1's back and then a couple back to finish a few points lower than I started


Is the back problems anything to do with S&T by any chance....


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Oh I did come down a good few notches but then got a few .1's back and then a couple back to finish a few points lower than I started


Is the back problems anything to do with S&T by any chance....
		
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No.... it was from a more conventional slice swing 

I joined a new club this year with the intention of trying to beat Fundy (from the forum) to scratch h/cap and then knackered my back 2 weeks after joining trying to hit a 50yrd slice with the old 'McIlroy 720rpm hip move'.. I literally heard something crack ... unfortunately Fundy cropped his knee the same week which scuppered his plans too 

I can still play quite well with S&T even with my knackered back but lack of practice and play (twice in 4 months) means I lose my short game touch, the odd drive goes in the rough and a couple of putts slide by ...hence the 6 h/cap.

Need an op on my shoulder too as I ripped something inside when I slid down into a ditch trying to recover my opponents ball for him. It's agony some days... I'm falling to bits.. it's not S&T's fault.

World reknowned back (and sports) specialists have said in no short measure that the S&T swing is the easiest swing on the back.

At 43 I'm beginning to think it's all over..... maybe just one more year.......  

How old are you Bomber?


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## Foxholer (Nov 27, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Just interested as to what you played off I mean I would always take advice from a Pro or even someone who is better than me but would question advice given from someone who had a higher handicap, no offence intended.
		
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A very snobbish and limiting attitude imo.

The fact that (top) Pros have coaches who haven't been top players themselves demonstrates that ability to perform and ability to observe/teach are different skill sets. And I know some Pros who I would never take advice from!

Always worth questioning advice though. If the advisor can't explain adequately why they are wanting you to change, then it's probably bad advice. And if you are unconvinced, then the change almost certainly won't happen!


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## JustOne (Nov 27, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			A very snobbish and limiting attitude imo.

The fact that (top) Pros have coaches who haven't been top players themselves demonstrates that ability to perform and ability to observe/teach are different skill sets. And I know some Pros who I would never take advice from!

Always worth questioning advice though. If the advisor can't explain adequately why they are wanting you to change, then it's probably bad advice. And if you are unconvinced, then the change almost certainly won't happen!
		
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Good post that Foxy.

I like the part about being unconvinced.. in the big scheme of things it's fairly well known that the process is "you listen to the advice, duff 2 shots, then go looking for more advice from someone else"


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## SamQuirkePGA (Nov 28, 2012)

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."


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## Bomber69 (Nov 28, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			A very snobbish and limiting attitude imo.

The fact that (top) Pros have coaches who haven't been top players themselves demonstrates that ability to perform and ability to observe/teach are different skill sets. And I know some Pros who I would never take advice from!

Always worth questioning advice though. If the advisor can't explain adequately why they are wanting you to change, then it's probably bad advice. And if you are unconvinced, then the change almost certainly won't happen!
		
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Nothing snobbish about it old boy I am free to decide who to listen to and who not to listen too and my take on golf is I may take advice from someone who is a better player or by a Pro but never from someone who plays the game and has a higher handicap than me , why should I listen to them if they cant put into practise something they are trying to teach me. Plus like I said I don't put in hours of practise and never have and aint about to do it now so I will continue to roll with the dice.

:cheers:


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## virtuocity (Nov 28, 2012)

All interesting points guys, BUT

Would it be fair to ask to be selfish for just one thread and ask that the S&T debate is left for the other 100 S&T debate threads?

I'd like this thread to be for those who are adopting this swing (or elements of it) and getting advice about it and tracking progress etc.

Fair / unfair?


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## JustOne (Nov 28, 2012)

Bomber69 said:



			Nothing snobbish about it old boy I am free to decide who to listen to and who not to listen too and my take on golf is I may take advice from someone who is a better player or by a Pro but never from someone who plays the game and has a higher handicap than me , why should I listen to them if they cant put into practise something they are trying to teach. Plus like I said I don't put in hours of practise and never have and aint about to do it know so I will continue to roll with the dice.

:cheers:
		
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That sounds fair enough to me, although I don't think Foxy was calling you a snob... more of a turn of phrase for the dissmissive attitude... which is fairly common in this game seeing as there's been so much false information passed down over the years.. it really has become a case of just who to believe.

*Purely out of interest*, if you went round with a pro for 18 holes and beat his score would you not take a lesson off him (assuming you were someone inclined to have lessons).


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## Bomber69 (Nov 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That sounds fair enough to me, although I don't think Foxy was calling you a snob... more of a turn of phrase for the dissmissive attitude... which is fairly common in this game seeing as there's been so much false information passed down over the years.. it really has become a case of just who to believe.

*Purely out of interest*, if you went round with a pro for 18 holes and beat his score would you not take a lesson off him (assuming you were someone inclined to have lessons).
		
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I play in a lot of Pro Am's and have beat quite a few of the Pro's scores over the years, most of them tell me the same thing, solid of the tee great long irons but the short game needs work. I will always listen to what they have to say but it would be rude not too


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## Slime (Dec 3, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			All interesting points guys, BUT

Would it be fair to ask to be selfish for just one thread and ask that the S&T debate is left for the other 100 S&T debate threads?

I'd like this thread to be for those who are adopting this swing (or elements of it) and getting advice about it and tracking progress etc.

Fair / unfair?
		
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Fair.
I do find it mildly amusing that anti S&T golfers come on to S&T threads and ridicule/criticise the technique, probably having never understood it or tried it. Why do they even read these threads and then claim that S&T doesn't work and they would never use it?
They should start their own 'I hate S&T because it's crap' thread and leave these threads alone................unless they have something constructive to add, which admittedly, many do.

*Slime*.

Oh. And I'll listen to advice from anyone who I think can help me, without having to confirm their handeicap first.


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## G1BB0 (Dec 3, 2012)

here, here Slime.

Anyway I am off up the range to practice my partial S&T swing (therfor I am only open to half the criticism & half the praise haha)


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## Slime (Dec 3, 2012)

Half the system........half the criticism, sounds fair enough to me.

*Slime*.

P.S. Is it the S or the T?


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## G1BB0 (Dec 3, 2012)

erm, you have got me there lol

I like to call it the STILT


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2012)

I keep messing up the T and ending up in S and!


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## Slime (Dec 3, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			I keep messing up the T and ending up in S and!
		
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M ?


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2012)

Slime said:



			M ?
		
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About to have some in a S and wich! 

Apologies Virt. for the thread-jack; others for the (attempted) humour.


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## virtuocity (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks y'all.

I find the stack and tilt jokes funny as well to be honest, but felt that EVERY S&T thread was full of them and thought it might be a good idea to keep just one thread jibe-free.  Humour welcome, but the whole "Is stack and tilt the devil?" debate should be taken elsewhere.


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## thecraw (Dec 3, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I doubt he said that seeing as he can hardly speak a word......

it was probably "son key ta p nd t oony stack yoobedoo is t shefs in teskos".



Anyway... how's your h/cap doing Craw? Turned pro with the swing you're using.... or still working for a living? I thought you were about to quit the game last month???????
		
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Ooooft, take me to any page which states I want to turn pro? May still quit you never ken!


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## thecraw (Dec 3, 2012)

JustOne said:



			My lowest was 1 h/cap, best round 4 under par was only 2yrs ago so I've not forgotten everything just yet. *Current h/cap is 6.4 which I'm happy with seeing as I can hardly walk some days.* Is h/cap important for KNOWING or PLAYING?

So I'll ask you a question; I see you are 5/hcap, is that your lowest or have you played better? and off 5 h/cap are YOU able to judge what is a good swing? You seem to slag off S&T a fair bit so clearly you think your opinion is better than some ofther more qualified instructors than yourself.. or am I mistaken?

Our very own Sam Quirke is a qualified pro and he doesn't slag off S&T
		
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Yip it is widely acknowledged that S&T places tremendous strain on the spine. Are the the proof in the pudding?


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## JustOne (Dec 3, 2012)

thecraw said:



			Yip it is widely acknowledged that S&T places tremendous strain on the spine. Are the the proof in the pudding?
		
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You know nothing about the golf swing Crawford, nothing to say of any worth and unlikely that you'll ever post something in this section to actually help someone.

My back has nothing to do with stack and tilt (if you actually read the thread) and I can hit the ball just fine considering the amount of golf that I DON'T play. I am very happy with my game.

You think it's FUNNY to post something snidey, that Bob Torrance supposedly said, pertaining to being 'stacked' and yet where did your 'unstacked' swing get you? Clearly irony isn't a strength of yours. 

You're not a pro, your just as rubbish as the very people Bob torrance might have been referring to. I don't think people here are looking to get on tour, they are looking for a better way to hit the ball.

Grow up, please. Why not stick to posting your moans in the OOB section?


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## thecraw (Dec 3, 2012)

JustOne said:



			You know nothing about the golf swing Crawford, nothing to say of any worth and unlikely that you'll ever post something in this section to actually help someone.

My back has nothing to do with stack and tilt (if you actually read the thread) and I can hit the ball just fine considering the amount of golf that I DON'T play. I am very happy with my game.

You think it's FUNNY to post something snidey, that Bob Torrance supposedly said, pertaining to being 'stacked' and yet where did your 'unstacked' swing get you? Clearly irony isn't a strength of yours. 

*You're not a pro, your just as rubbish* as the very people Bob torrance might have been referring to. I don't think people here are looking to get on tour, they are looking for a better way to hit the ball.

Grow up, please. Why not stick to posting your moans in the OOB section?
		
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Correct on both counts but still a lower handicap than you the copy and paste master. Keep up your smoke and mirrors James it'll all come crashing down.


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## G1BB0 (Dec 3, 2012)

chill out chaps eh!


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## thecraw (Dec 3, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			chill out chaps eh!
		
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Sir, sir he started it!


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## williamalex1 (Dec 3, 2012)

you've  just lost a fan, bad attitude and response so sad  i feel sorry for your students 



JustOne said:



			You know nothing about the golf swing Crawford, nothing to say of any worth and unlikely that you'll ever post something in this section to actually help someone.

My back has nothing to do with stack and tilt (if you actually read the thread) and I can hit the ball just fine considering the amount of golf that I DON'T play. I am very happy with my game.

You think it's FUNNY to post something snidey, that Bob Torrance supposedly said, pertaining to being 'stacked' and yet where did your 'unstacked' swing get you? Clearly irony isn't a strength of yours. 

You're not a pro, your just as rubbish as the very people Bob torrance might have been referring to. I don't think people here are looking to get on tour, they are looking for a better way to hit the ball.

Grow up, please. Why not stick to posting your moans in the OOB section?
		
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## G1BB0 (Dec 3, 2012)

this is the trouble with S&T posts (amongst a few others) it all ends up in swing bashing. I can understand JO getting annoyed as it happens every time one of these threads is posted & as someone who is passionate about it then obviously it grates after a certain amount of time. It doesnt excuse personal snipes however. Please keep on topic now gents or this will end up locked!

Virtuocity has already asked can it stay on topic and as the thread starter I think we should at least allow him that courtesy.


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## JustOne (Dec 3, 2012)

williamalex1 said:



			you've  just lost a fan, bad attitude and response so sad  i feel sorry for your students
		
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I like to help people William. I'm not going to sit on my hands whilst people are just bemoaning, derogatory or simply taking the mick out of something they really don't know anything about. Appreciate your post though.





thecraw said:



			Sir, sir he started it!
		
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 Ok... I laughed at that :thup:


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## Slime (Dec 3, 2012)

One more time, and please read this slowly.

If  you  think   S&T is  the  work  of  the  Devil,  please  start  your  own  *'I  think  S&T  is  the  work  of  the  Devil'*  thread  and  stay  away  from  threads  started  by  people  who  are  interested  in  it  or  are  already  in  favour  of  it.

Thank you,

*Slime*.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2012)

You really need to use S&T to be in a position to berate it.  I decided to try it around a month ago, I do like trying out different golf swings and have had a go at most of them over time (including rubbish ones before anyone chips in with that cookie) .

OK, it's early days but I have been impressed with the results, iron striking in particular has been very good, the Driver took a bit of coming to terms with but that has settled into a nice reliable draw. 

I have a bad back anyway through many years of competitive Squash playing.  I cant see where this swing is any worse on the back than any of the others.   In a way it keeps the spine on a more consistant alignment so seems to reduce strain.

It is not a simple swing to learn but worth a try as the consistency of ball striking is great.


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## One Planer (Dec 3, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			You really need to use S&T to be in a position to berate it.  I decided to try it around a month ago, I do like trying out different golf swings and have had a go at most of them over time (including rubbish ones before anyone chips in with that cookie) .

OK, it's early days but I have been impressed with the results, iron striking in particular has been very good, the Driver took a bit of coming to terms with but that has settled into a nice reliable draw. 

I have a bad back anyway through many years of competitive Squash playing.  I cant see where this swing is any worse on the back than any of the others.   In a way it keeps the spine on a more consistant alignment so seems to reduce strain.

It is not a simple swing to learn but worth a try as the consistency of ball striking is great.
		
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Finally the voice of reason. Well said Brian :thup:

James, a while back, posted a link to an interview with Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer (The S&T pattern creators) that answered a lot of the questions and dispelled a few of the myths floating around on this thread, the "back back swing" being one of them.

Maybe James could kindly re-post?

Either way, as Gibbo said, the OP has requested the thread stay on track. I think it only fair that the good people of the forum respect his wishes and allow the thread to continue in the spirit in which it was intended.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Finally the voice of reason. Well said Brian :thup:

James, a while back, posted a link to an interview with Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer (The S&T pattern creators) that answered a lot of the questions and dispelled a few of the myths floating around on this thread, the "back back swing" being one of them.

Maybe James could kindly re-post?

Either way, as Gibbo said, the OP has requested the thread stay on track. I think it only fair that the good people of the forum respect his wishes and allow the thread to continue in the spirit in which it was intended.
		
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I initially found the backswing a little hard to understand, especially when they spoke of spine extension.  I found a really good set of pictures from Andy Plummer (I think) that broke the backswing down into three simple moves that when combined created the correct backswing.  
1) From a normal forward tilt at address you stand up straight.
2) You tilt your spine so it leans to the left.
3) You make a shoulder turn.


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## One Planer (Dec 3, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			I initially found the backswing a little hard to understand, especially when they spoke of spine extension.  I found a really good set of pictures from Andy Plummer (I think) that broke the backswing down into three simple moves that when combined created the correct backswing.  
1) From a normal forward tilt at address you stand up straight.
2) You tilt your spine so it leans to the left.
3) You make a shoulder turn.
		
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Funnily enough it was the opposite end of the swing, the finish that initially stumped me. Tucking the hips confused me until I stopped wrapping my arms around my neck at the end of the swing


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## Slime (Dec 4, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Funnily enough it was the opposite end of the swing, the finish that initially stumped me. *Tucking the hips confused me* until I stopped wrapping my arms around my neck at the end of the swing 

Click to expand...

I still have trouble tucking my butt to finish the swing. 
I think I'm concentrating too hard on the backswing and then forgetting how to finish the shot off!
Still working on it but I'm not playing enough at the moment............................and I'm staring down the barrel of an enforced  four month lay-off due to an impending shoulder operation! 
Ah well, at least I'll be able to read the book again!

*Slime*.


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## virtuocity (Dec 4, 2012)

I reckon I'm doing well with the backswing.  Have ALWAYS struggled to move my weight forward so struggle with consistent contact (although it's getting better) and power remains an issue.


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## virtuocity (Jan 6, 2013)

Happy New Year all.

I have been very quiet of late on the forum, instead spending my time on the course!

Quick updates:

1.  I can now drive straight (sometimes a tiny fade) most of the time.  Average yardage has gone from 185 to 205 over the past 3 months.  

2.  Feeling much more confident around the greens.  As with most instruction DVDs and books there are some things which just make a lightbulb go on inside your head.  Mine is the 'flying wedge' which helps me eliminate thins, get the ball up and down and land soft on the greens.  

3.  Putting OK.  Sitting at around 2 putts per hole on average.  That will do me just now.

4.  Need to improve on my second shot of each long hole.  Seem to be making decent connections with the ball (whereas before I had issues with thins, tops, shanks etc) but struggling a bit on distance.  My 4 hybrid is my go-to club, but struggling to hit it 150 yards uphill.  

Stupid question of the week:

I seem to be getting better 'naturally'.  I know the old adage "practice makes perfect" rings true here, but I want to know why?  I don't think I've changed my swing THAT much but every time I hit the course I get a little bit better.  I'd rather understand why this is!!!! Not complaining though.


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## chris661 (Jan 6, 2013)

A bit more confidence and being a bit more comfortable in what you are doing.


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## virtuocity (Jan 7, 2013)

Hit the range today for the first time in over a month.  That's 2 9-holes and 200 balls at the range in 3 days.  Ouch!

PW is going amazingly well.  Hitting the range rocks 120-130 yards.  I can also draw the ball if I wish.  

Took out the 2 hybrid.  What a freaking disaster.  95% of the time I was hitting the ground before the ball.  I was into ball number 80 and twice nearly asked the guy next to me if he wanted 100 balls as I was up for going home.  I glad I didn't.

S&T, like all swings have key fundamentals and failure to miss out a step or two can have disastrous consequences like above.  What was I forgetting?

1.  Move my fat ass to the left at set up dammit!  
2.  Let the shoulders start the takeaway
3.  COMMIT to the follow-through (nice poser finish)

The ball then started to fly.  I was getting approx 165 yards with the 2 hybrid and I would like to think that I could add around 10% (fair enough?) on to this when considering I now use a decent premium ball on the course.

5 iron- utter guff.  Can't hit the thing.  Well, to be fair, I was hitting it around 145 yards but the ball flight was a bit low and direct and I didn't feel like I really compressed the ball like I did with the hybrid.

As for the driver, I felt comfortable using it, but I hit the shots REALLY high.  This doesn't really happen on the course and I think it may be due to the thick, slightly-too-high range tees.  They don't half create resistance against the club head.  Am I the only one who finds this?

To sign off for the day, I must say that I'm glad that I stuck it at the range today after nearly giving up after 100 balls.  

The swing is coming together, slowly, but I do believe that there is a golfer in me somewhere.  Need to take it to the course tomorrow and start eating up the yards, combined with my new-found confidence from 100 yards.


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## One Planer (Jan 7, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Hit the range today for the first time in over a month.  That's 2 9-holes and 200 balls at the range in 3 days.  Ouch!
		
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Far too many balls IMHO.

50 is more than enough, unless you plan on spending a few hours there!!

Next time, just get 50 balls and give every bal the same consideration you would as if you were playing the course.


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## virtuocity (Jan 7, 2013)

In the future, there's no way I'll be taking 200 balls.  But I'm going through a learning process whilst wanting to keep enjoying the game.

If I left after 50 balls today, chances are my clubs would be chucked into the garage for a few months.


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## One Planer (Jan 7, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			In the future, there's no way I'll be taking 200 balls.  But I'm going through a learning process whilst wanting to keep enjoying the game.

If I left after 50 balls today, chances are my clubs would be chucked into the garage for a few months.
		
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:rofl: It can get you like that sometimes.

I often find when taking a large number of balls, the focus goes and it can decend into a whack-fest.

I'd much sooner hit 25/50 quality balls per session and keep the focus. 

As an example. I go to the range in my dinner hour. I have 25 balls that take me about 30 minutes to get through (... Sometimes longer depending what I'm working on).

Once I've hit them, I'll do 20 minutes putting, then back to work.

I like to think I've given every ball my full attention and not just blindly smashed them down the range.


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## MGL (Jan 7, 2013)

Threads about S & T remind me of threads titled "Whats the difference between Project X & TT Dynamic Gold" threads LOL


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## virtuocity (Jan 9, 2013)

BROKE 100!!!!!!!! Wooooo hooooooooo!!!!!!

Thought I'd play rubbish today after my first game of badminton in 10 years last night (18 stones worth of ouch).  

Anyhoo went out and hit a 94 which I'm delighted with.  The thing was, now I remember to keep my left hip out by a few inches whilst maintaining my top half at a centred position, my driving has never been better or more consistent.  My 94 today was a complete breeze and I only one-putted once on the last par 3.  I left plenty of shots out there.

With my weight bias sorted at address, duffs have went down to a mere handful.

Next step- score on average 94 or better over the next 6 rounds (that would take me from an unofficial 28 to an unofficial 22- my target is 18 this year).

As this is a S&T thread and not a blog, I'd better end with a question.

Although there is a _slight_ weight bias to the left at address, my drives are much more controlled if I stick my left hip towards the target by looooooaaaaads.  Plus, my distance isn't too bad.  Should I be looking to minimise the amount my left hip is out at address over time?


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2013)

Possibly... the question is that you say looooooaaads but how much is that in reality - time to send me another vid me thinks :thup:


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## virtuocity (Jan 9, 2013)

Vids will be here by the end of the week.  I have been shopping around for a camera as attempts to use my blackberry at the range failed massively (or epic fail to those under 18).  Stupidly, I didn't even consider that just a few months ago I bought Mrs V a brand new Ipad with 1080HD video capabilities.  I will be taking this down the range either tomorrow (if I'm not too sore) or Thursday morning at the latest.

Any requests?  Down the line will be simple enough, but there isn't much room for a face-on shot.


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Any requests?  Down the line will be simple enough, but there isn't much room for a face-on shot.
		
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Anything is better than nothing but ideally you'll get *something* from both directions :thup:


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## virtuocity (Jan 14, 2013)

Went to a par 66 course this morning and shot 84.  Delighted to say the least!

I would like to distance my performance from James' advice about my grip and takeaway- it had nothing at all to do with my PB today.

Winter tees were a pest and in a more difficult position than the actual tee boxes!

Driving was pants but approach play was excellent and my putter was on fire.  

After days like this I'm even more confident that I'll go from 28 to 18 handicap by the end of the year.


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## CMAC (Jan 14, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Vids will be here by the end of the week.  I have been shopping around for a camera as attempts to use my blackberry at the range failed massively (or epic fail to those under 18).  Stupidly, I didn't even consider that just a few months ago I bought Mrs V a brand new Ipad with 1080HD video capabilities.  I will be taking this down the range either tomorrow (if I'm not too sore) or Thursday morning at the latest.

Any requests?  Down the line will be simple enough, but there isn't much room for a face-on shot.
		
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go to the range at Playsport, loads of bays and a couple with a place to place an iPad face on and DTL


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## virtuocity (Jan 14, 2013)

I've been to the Playsport ranges about 60 times...... never seen bays which allow you to do this?!!!!!


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## JustOne (Jan 14, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I would like to distance my performance from James' advice about my grip and takeaway- it had nothing at all to do with my PB today.
		
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I suppose you're after some ego boosting praise for actually being the one swinging the club?  :rofl:

84 huh? That's FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!! :thup: :thup:


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## Chumpalot83 (Jan 14, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Went to a par 66 course this morning and shot 84.  Delighted to say the least!
		
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Nice!  Well done :thup:


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## virtuocity (Jan 14, 2013)

It was only a par 66 though!!!!


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## Slime (Jan 14, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			It was only a par 66 though!!!!
		
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So what!                   From small acorns...................

*Slime*.


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## virtuocity (Jan 14, 2013)

Still would suggest that I'm a better player than a 28 handicap, so I'm happy with that.  Onwards and upwards.


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## G1BB0 (Jan 14, 2013)

good to hear of the recent pb's. Keep it up and 18h/c will be a walk in the park

a G&T is the only option I have, getting golf fever although the snow/recent crap weather helps.


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## virtuocity (Jan 15, 2013)

In all seriousness though, I'd like to publicly thank James (Justone) for all of his FREEEEE advice.  I'm sure he'll be nice enough to continue to help me (until I get to his handicap in 2016!!!).


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## JustOne (Jan 15, 2013)

No problem mate, just shooting an 84 is thanks enough :thup:


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I'm sure he'll be nice enough to continue to help me (until I get to his handicap in 2016!!!).
		
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His is heading in your direction pretty rapidly too, so it could be sooner! 

Well done btw! Breaking 80 is the next challenge. Relax and it will happen!


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## JustOne (Jan 15, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			His is heading in your direction pretty rapidly too, so it could be sooner! 

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same but wasn't going to admit it in writing :rofl:


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## virtuocity (Jan 18, 2013)

After 7 months, I can finally hit a 7 iron!!!!!  Every club I have I'm getting better over time with, but for some reason I could never hit this damn club.  60 balls at the range today, 30 of which with the 7-iron and I got some really nice ball flight results.

I just need to concentrate on hitting down at the ball.

Question-  should the downswing angle for irons be less steep for longer irons?  Or the same for all?


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			After 7 months, I can finally hit a 7 iron!!!!!  Every club I have I'm getting better over time with, but for some reason I could never hit this damn club.  60 balls at the range today, 30 of which with the 7-iron and I got some really nice ball flight results.

I just need to concentrate on hitting down at the ball.

Question-  should the downswing angle for irons be less steep for longer irons?  Or the same for all?
		
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Depends what you mean by 'down-swing angle'.

Being longer, the angle for lower lofted irons will naturally be less, though ball should still be hit before lowest point of the arc.


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## virtuocity (Jan 29, 2013)

James' (Justone) thread about his swing thoughts (http://tinyurl.com/av4538e) got me thinking about all of the information I have picked up since taking up golf last August.  

One of my favourite inspirational quotes of all time:

_"Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain"_ (H. Simpson)

That's what it's like sometimes for newbie golfers like me.  

So I started off golfing looking at weight bias, swing path, grip, alignment, weight transfer, OTT fixes, stopping fats, bouts of shanks and selecting all of the gear I need to hit the ball where I want it to go.

100 range sessions later you find you can hit the ball well.  Maybe not as far as you'd want, or as consistently as the single figure handicapper in the next bay, but you're satisfied with your progress.  Golf however, is a seductive game.  You want MORE, you want to MASTER the unmasterable 'game'.  So you take to the course for the first time.

New experiences come at you by the bucket-load;  People behind you at the 1st tee boring red-hot rays of judgement into the back of your cranium as you pray to your god, the sky and your driver that your ball makes it at least 150 yards in an acceptable direction.  Wet conditions.  Greens.  Putting.  Chipping.  Losing balls.  Losing your mind.  Scoring.  Self-hatred.  The range seems a long time ago.

30 rounds later, you find yourself scoring better- from 100s to 90s, to knocking at the door of the 80s and yet you still crave more.  Off for a video lesson, let's see those trackman figures (because we all know that having an understanding of spin rates and club face angles are vital after 6 months of golfing, right?).  My swing speed is too slow, I'm coming in too steep.  I'm chicken-winging.  Oh god.  My grip is weak, my takeaway jerky and does my belly _really_ look that big?!

More.  Information.

Off to the range to cure my 20 flaws.  300 balls over 3 days should do it.

Wrong.  

Shanks, hitting the range roof 3 times (driver off the tee), thins, fats, hooks (a new one for me) all increase my inner rage.  You start to 'notice' the two guys in the bays either side of you and get the feeling like you do at the urinals of a very dodgy pub.

So I step away from the mat, take a deep breath and try to think logically about how I'm going to hit the white ball the way I desire.  

Suddenly, I start seeing trackman numbers and video replays buzzing before my eyes.  I think about grip, stance, posture, swing paths- all of the things I have learned in 6 months.  So overcome was I with this encyclopaedic brainstorm that I put the club back in the bag grabbed my car keys and headed out of the range leaving behind my hopes, wasted sweat and half a bucket of rocks for a 'more deserving' hacker.

Such woes!  A hellish week followed and I didn't hit a ball.

To cut a very long post short(er), I once again turn to a GM forumite (no prizes for guessing who) who helps me find my focus once more.  

I wasn't taking the club away in the right path, my wrist didn't cock AT ALL and I wasn't moving my weight through the ball.  

Such simple things, *lost* in maze of information.  Not that the other information isn't important, it was just blocking what should have been at the forefront of my mind, my *swing thoughts* if you will.

If you've ever seen a mammal's DNA code written down, it's pages and pages worth of what looks like nonsense.  However, take away one single page and you'd have something which, anatomically, wouldn't work.  

I think the golf swing is a bit like that; you need *all* of the information to make it work but just as important is how you control said information rather than it controlling you.

It has taken me 6 months to get to this point.

Whatever happened to _rip it and grip it_, eh?


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## JustOne (Jan 29, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			...and does my belly _really_ look that big?!
		
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No comment,... fatty! :ears:

:clap::clap::clap:


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## Slime (Jan 29, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I wasn't taking the club away in the right path, my wrist didn't cock AT ALL and I wasn't moving my weight through the ball.  

Such simple things, *lost* in maze of information.  Not that the other information isn't important, it was just blocking what should have been at the forefront of my mind, my *swing thoughts* if you will.

If you've ever seen a mammal's DNA code written down, it's pages and pages worth of what looks like nonsense.  However, take away one single page and you'd have something which, anatomically, wouldn't work.  

I think the golf swing is a bit like that; you need *all* of the information to make it work but just as important is how you control said information rather than it controlling you.

It has taken me 6 months to get to this point.

Whatever happened to _rip it and grip it_, eh?
		
Click to expand...

If you have the book, sit down with a cup of tea and read it. Then you can just refer to it as required. I find that it simplifies the golf swing into few enough moves to be commited to memory without too much of a problem.
It also makes faults easy to recognise and therefore easy to work on specifically.
It's a great tool.......................a bit like me really!

*Slime*.


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## virtuocity (Jan 31, 2013)

Wise words from a crazy fella coming up.  Just posting here so I don't lose it!

_The goal is to hit the ball before the club hits the ground..... the second goal is to hit it with some power.... the third goal is to control where it goes.

If you are achieving those goals and you are happy then voilÃ !

You will have these moments where things seem to fall into place but what happens from there quite often is that people add a few more tweaks to get that bit better then suddenly they add piece on top of piece until eventually they don't even know where they started and their swing is all over the place..... what you want to try to achieve is a DEFAULT SWING, some feels at set up or in your backswing that are conducive to hitting the ball NICELY. Then when the wheels fall off your swing you can go straight back to that set up EVERY TIME, and those basic 'feels' or 'understandings' of what you need to be doing. _


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## virtuocity (Feb 5, 2013)




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## Chumpalot83 (Feb 5, 2013)

:lol:


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## virtuocity (Feb 25, 2013)

Quick update stack and tilt fans.....  

Irons going very well.  So, so, so high and long.  I don't even feel the ball off the face a lot of the time.

Struggling with the driver at the moment.  I have spoken with a pro before who was very open minded about golf swings.  She actually advocates putting weight on the front foot for short irons, but reckons that this isn't such a good idea for long irons and woods.

Until this week, I have been playing with a 3/4 driver swing.  This yielded decent results- pretty straight and around 200yards.

But I've known from the start that in order to get down to an 18 handicap this year, I really need to be smacking the ball 240 yards and on the short stuff if possible.  

Issue is that I'm hitting the driver far too steep when I move to a full swing causing the ball to balloon up in the air and only going 180-200 yards.

So, I have managed to track down a Stack and Tilt instructor just over an hour away and will be visiting on Friday morning for a 3 hour lesson.  Will be getting some vids done (might even put a few up on here for a laugh) and aim to come home with my driver fixed, or with a good idea on how to fix it myself.  Will also be running through the rest of the clubs in my bag to check my swing going into my first season.

Wish me luck!


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## Slime (Feb 25, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			So, I have managed to track down a Stack and Tilt instructor just over an hour away and will be visiting on Friday morning for a 3 hour lesson.  

Wish me luck!
		
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I don't wish you luck, but I do wish you well!
I'm sure that if you listen well & practice hard, luck will not be an issue. It's not down to luck, it's down to you & I really hope it goes well & you enjoy it.
Please supply an update as I am interested in how you get on & what your pro recommend as I also found the driver the hardest club to use with the S&T pattern.
All the best,

*Slime*.


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## CMAC (Feb 25, 2013)

virtuocity said:



*So, I have managed to track down a Stack and Tilt instructor just over an hour away* 

Wish me luck!
		
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who is it?


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2013)

Issue is that I'm hitting the driver far too steep when I move to a full swing causing the ball to balloon up in the air and only going 180-200 yards.
		
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Any pro would fix that in 5 mins


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## virtuocity (Feb 26, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			who is it?
		
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A guy called Neil Colquhoun in Edinburgh.  Never met him before, but going to see how we get on.  Certainly knows a lot about S&T.


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## virtuocity (Feb 26, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Any pro would fix that in 5 mins
		
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That's good to hear.

I am shockingly bad at learning from books, forum posts (just ask JO) and youtube videos.  Most people would think "Huh, I'm skying the ball off the tee, let's go on to the forum and ask a question and I'll check some vids".  

I just struggle with it and need someone right there to explain it to me in 4 year old terms.  Actually, I find it most easy if someone physically moves me (!) so I get to the right positions.  

I reckon that the lack of S&T instructors is a big reason why people go back to a more traditional swing pattern.

Looking forward to my lesson.


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## JustOne (Feb 26, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			A guy called Neil Colquhoun in Edinburgh.  Never met him before, but going to see how we get on.  Certainly knows a lot about S&T.
		
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Well done for finding someone that advocates your swing pattern and for booking a lesson. It's far better for someone to see you face to face.... especially seeing as you can rarely be bothered to video your swing 

Hopefully you will take notes or get some kind of video record of what you should be doing and some good drills to work on.


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## virtuocity (Feb 26, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Well done for finding someone that advocates your swing pattern and for booking a lesson. It's far better for someone to see you face to face.... especially seeing as you can rarely be bothered to video your swing 

Hopefully you will take notes or get some kind of video record of what you should be doing and some good drills to work on.
		
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I'LL GET A BLOOMING VIDEO ON THE DAY JAMES AND WILL SEND IT TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!! Your never-ceasing lust for my beautiful swing (and the hunky- not chunky- body which makes it) is freaking me out



But seriously, I really hope to achieve:

-Good recordings of my swing
-Eradication of steep driver swing plane
-Work on driver slice and power
-Get drills to help improve my driver swing.  Ones that I 10000% understand
-A nice sandwich and coffee.  I'm thinking chicken tikka salad.


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## JustOne (Feb 26, 2013)

I would say that your best bet would be simply to say that you feel like you are terrible THROUGH impact, so that you start to understand the strike, the leverage through the ball and how to turn through the shot without stopping/stalling/flipping or chicken winging.

I'm really pleased that you've taken this route and hope you hit it off well with him. When he says something you don't understand ASK HIM what he's talking about :thup:


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## virtuocity (Mar 1, 2013)

An absolute BRILLIANT day had today with my 3 hour lesson.   I'm waiting on pics and videos being sent over and will do a full write-up.


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## Wolfman (Mar 1, 2013)

3 hour lesson ?? thats a long time how much did he charge

When my swing was pants with irons i found my driver was better

As i sorted my irons my driver became a skied  shot as i was way too steep into the ball

For driver and fairway woods i really focus on keeping my weight more on the back foot and swinging up at the ball as i transfer  my weight to the left

My drives have been far better since i focus on this 

Have been tempted to try Stack & Tilt myself as weight shift is something i am working hard on to correct and S&T may be easier

I have read the S&T  with the driver is more difficult  ?


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## virtuocity (Mar 1, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			3 hour lesson ?? thats a long time how much did he charge
		
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Well I was actually there for about 4 hours.  The cost was about the same as a good second hand driver which I would have bought to "change my swing"(!).  



Wolfman said:



			For driver and fairway woods i really focus on keeping my weight more on the back foot and swinging up at the ball as i transfer  my weight to the left
		
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Yep, I used to try to do this before S&T.  Resulted in me getting 'flippy' with the hands and wrists through contact.



Wolfman said:



			I have read the S&T  with the driver is more difficult  ?
		
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When you say 'difficult' what do you mean?  I think the main criticisms are that "Stack and Tilt means you lose distance automatically" and "Tour Pros don't use Stack and Tilt particularly with driver".  I have NO OPINION on either statement but all I know is that S&T helps promote (in this order):

1.  A good contact with the ball
2.  Power and distance required to play the course
3.  Accurate direction control

So my point is that with S&T giving me good contact every time, I will hit it (on average) much more further than if I were to use another swing method which might produce more _power_ but a poorer _contact_ and also I have conceded that I will never be a golf professional so that line of argument is irrelevant.  

Again, full write up on today to follow soon, but if anyone wants to ask any questions prior to doing so, please do.


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2013)

Are you swinging in to out now?


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## virtuocity (Mar 1, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Are you swinging in to out now?
		
Click to expand...

Don't know.  You'll be able to tell me when / if you watch my videos.


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## virtuocity (Mar 3, 2013)

_â€œI am virtuocity and Iâ€™m a Stack and Tilterâ€. _ Doesnâ€™t that sound like a phrase of guilt; one which would be offered to a group of strangers sat in a big circle in the local church hall during a group therapy session?  

Well, this swing pattern is, by many, seen as something to be guilty about, _a dirty phrase_, cultish, defensive and something which drives a responsibility in others to correct it.  

Even my coach, Neil Colquhoun (approved Stack and Tilt instructor) said, â€œI donâ€™t tend to tell people that what I teach is S&T.  I had someone I was teaching for a long time and played off scratch who was playing one day and a partner had observed his swing and told him that he was using S&T.   The pupil asked Neil, â€œHave you been teaching me Stack and Tilt?â€ to which he agreed that he had.  I was almost surprised to hear that the pupil then said, â€œI donâ€™t care, Iâ€™m playing so well Iâ€™m not going to changeâ€.  

So why the shroud, the demi-denial of how one earns a living?

Well I think Messieurs _Bennett _and _Plummer _(co-creators of S&T) have a lot to do with this.  Well I say a lot- I mean nearly everything to do with this.   Check out of some of these self-penned phrases:
_
â€˜The Hottest Swings on Tourâ€™

â€˜Swing like the Pros in no time!â€™

â€˜The swing that is remaking golfâ€™_

In addition to these, Mike and Andy have devoted a huge amount of time to telling everyone in the world of golf that they are wrong, their teachers and fathers were wrong and more profoundly that _they are right_.  Of course, the harshness of their message was not fully one of provocation but one of pure and utter passion and belief in the effectiveness of their â€˜designâ€™.  I think it is fair to concede though that knowing how touchy the golfing fraternity is, Andy and Mike were quite aware of how much publicity they would gain from their accusatory approach.

Neil Colquhoun stated, â€œI have spent a lot of time with Mike and Andy and I know they regret a lot of what has happened (with regards to their marketing strategy)â€¦â€

So with the tsunami of controversial coverage, Stack and Tilt naturally received a forceful backlash from pros, journalists and a huge portion of the golfing population leaving S&T instructors and followers to make a choice:

a)	Learn to keep schtum about S&T 
b)	Defend S&T at all costs

You might have noticed the latter approach in some S&T players you know.  Chances are, youâ€™ve come across more followers of S&T (or elements of it) than youâ€™ve actually realised.

If this was a longer â€˜pieceâ€™ I would now go on to discuss the pros and cons of Stack and Tilt, but Iâ€™m not here to do that.  

My goal for writing this is to try to get people thinking about why S&T is such a contentious and prickly topic of golf discussion.  _What about Joe Danteâ€™s â€œFour Magic Movesâ€ book where an immediate wrist-cock is demanded by the author to start the most efficient and effective swing possible (amongst other controversial swing mechanics)?_

For a start, Joe Dante didnâ€™t have a flashy website, an expensive training programme and DVDs marketed for $175.

_My point?_  (Thank goodness, we've got there at last).

I guess I just want you to be a bit self-critical for a minute.  I want you to think about what you think about S&T but more importantly why you think what you do.  Is it because you have tried it, been taught it, played it and decided it wasn't for you?  Or is it because you have bought in to the (justified) backlash to Bennett and Plummerâ€™s marketing strategy which can be found in the mass majority of anti-S&T magazine articles, chats with your local pro and (dare I say it?) forum posts?

Neil told me about a student he had who was being teased about the way his feet were positioned at address (S&T teaches students to keep their feet pointed outwards to aid hip rotation).  One of his friends jested, "What are you doing Callum?!".  He replied, "Playing good golf".

I liked this story.  Callum didn't fit in to the standard mould of either hiding the fact that he adopted a controversial approach or staunchly defending his swing pattern.  He just did what made him play better.  

_I know exactly what he means._


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## G1BB0 (Mar 3, 2013)

excellent post. I think the fact its a 'branded' swing and the claims by Bennett & Plummer alongside their slightly smug attitutde.

I am embarking on it or elements at least. Will it work who knows but my shonky swing has got to change. Cue a session with JustOne and possible a lesson or 2 with a certain Mr Quirke in the not too distant future.

I believe it can help me get to a level where I can play consitant golf and most of all enjoy it.

Keep it up :thup:


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## virtuocity (Mar 3, 2013)

Alas, here is my write up from my 3 hour lesson on Friday.

It took place at Merchants Golf Club in Edinburgh- a 1.5 hour drive from me.  The course was pretty, my coach (Neil Colquhoun) was amazing and the weather was still and warm.  PERFECT.  Easily my best golfing day ever so far.

A lot of you have commented that 3 hours is too long for a lesson.  However, this was my first time with a Stack and Tilt instructor and I have loads of questions to ask, loads of swing flaws to undo and loads to learn.

I doubt I'd go for 3 hours again as we spent so much time undoing my self-taught rubbishness as well as addressing other things I wasn't aware of.

The first video is a couple of clips where Neil has asked me to show him what I've learned so far since I started playing last year.  I thought I had a big backswing, but NEVER thought it was as LONG as this!!!!!  On a more serious note, Neil was concerned about the amount of stress I was putting on my lower back as a result of poor impact position.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1GCBuV8oM

To be fair, Neil was very kind about my existing swing.  Despite me throwing my arms so far behind me (bless him, he said I was John Daly-esque, and not because of my big belly), he said I managed to get myself back into a good position coming up to impact, but obviously struggled AT and THROUGH impact.

At this point, we agreed to spend our time on:

1.  Eradicating my chicken wing
2.  Getting my weight through the ball (read as: prevent future back pain)
3.  Stop hitting my driver 80 yards up in the air and 80 yards right

First off was a brilliant drill Neil created just for me at the practice nets.  

Step 1-  Keep the flying wedge, short backswing, short follow through, keep the arms straight
Step 2-  As above, introduce some wrist cock, extend leading leg on follow through
Step 3-  As above, get hips through and get them tucked

From the video below I hope you can see some progress.  I still have a huge amount of work to go on this.  Bear in mind that I am a habitual slicer and chicken winger and have NEVER had a proper follow through.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9McN1aF_6g

Following a cup of tea and some video analysis (and 1000 questions about stack and tilt from me) we went back to the nets and course to look at the driver.

I have been a bit depressed (as James AKA Justone) about my driver.  Everyone talks about the importance of the short game, which I totally agree with, but I'm more of the thinking that I want to get my driver working first to get me into a position where my short game could be a hole maker or breaker.   

As I said above, I was skying and slicing my drives horrifically.  Neil completely changed my set up and was determined to prove that I could move the ball from right to left).  As it turned out, he was right!  Last night's visit to the range proved that!!!

Here's a little vid of a drill he got me to do.  Basically, with minimal wrist-cock and backswing, he wanted to show me that I didn't need to be scared of losing my ball high and right.  My chicken wing and follow through is MUCH better than previous, but still got a lot of work ahead of me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzw7DooSf8o

So, overall an AMAZING experience and looking forward to the next month of hard work embedding in these new changes.  I posted recently that I had suffered from a back/shoulder trapped nerve after slamming my club into hard sand.  After 50 balls at the range last night, I resorted back to my old swing (just for old time's sake!) and my pain immediately came back!!!

So, I trust my coach (a huge positive if you ask me!) and have a much more efficient, easy and pain-free swing.

Sloooooowwwly getting there folks!


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## Wolfman (Mar 3, 2013)

I have looked and searched for basic free S & T instruction and didnt see much at all
Maybe Justone and yourself could give us some basic set up pointers so we could at least try it before dismissing it ?


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## virtuocity (Mar 3, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			Cue a session with JustOne and possible a lesson or 2 with a certain Mr Quirke in the not too distant future.
		
Click to expand...

Go for both.  I would if I wasn't 100s of miles away.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 3, 2013)

just watching the vid (again) and started the book again. I know when I started using it last year I had a lesson and the pro gave me a simple drill using a half backswing... I was actually hitting further than my full normal swing!

This is what convinced to to carry on with it.

I would have used Sam/James already if it wasnt for work/cash and time as neither is right on my doorstep


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## scratch (Mar 3, 2013)

Just watched your swing clips virtuocity, to be honest with all that head movement I think you are doing really well just to make contact with the ball!


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## G1BB0 (Mar 3, 2013)

holy overswing batman!!!!!!!!!!!! that is bigger than Daly's lol

love the 3 drills, much more controlled. Like all things it will take time but fair play to you for being prepared to put the time and effort in. Keep us posted with any updates.


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## virtuocity (Mar 3, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			I have looked and searched for basic free S & T instruction and didnt see much at all
Maybe Justone and yourself could give us some basic set up pointers so we could at least *try it* before dismissing it ?
		
Click to expand...

I hope you don't mean 20 range balls here 

S&T success requires a commitment (just like any other swing) over a long time.

But if you're just looking to increase your knowledge of the pattern, check these out (in order):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRi1pO4Um88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jr1hUhILyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC_Ng-pjJNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3dIo0bC6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SYW1DHMAuQ


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## virtuocity (Mar 3, 2013)

scratch said:



			Just watched your swing clips virtuocity, to be honest with all that head movement I think you are doing really well just to make contact with the ball!
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you on the basis of the first video, but less so on the others.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 3, 2013)

head is much more stable in the 'after' vids.

How much practice does he reckon it will take before you can take it to the course or is that a how longs a piece of string question?

On the fuller swing in the 3 drills how has your shot shape/ball flight been and is the distance better than your pre lesson shots?
(just curious thats all)


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## virtuocity (Mar 4, 2013)

G1BB0- I had a wee chat with my coach about whether my game would suffer before getting better as a result of these stark changes.

He believed that I have the ability (lol) to implement these changes with little effect to my game.  If you think about the amount of fairways I was missing and fat/duff iron shots I was making during a round, then I'm inclined to believe him.

He also said that he's played many a round of golf just using the tiny backswing drill!

You ask about distance.  Not trying to squirm out of answering your question but _quality of strike_ along with concentrating on straighter arms (chicken wing fault) and follow through are my highest priorities.

However, I did take my 7 iron to the range on Saturday evening.  My ball striking was much improved and much more consistent.  As for distance, I used to get around 140 yards and now (with what feels like a half swing!) I'm achieving about 145-160 yards.  I don't know if that's 'good' or not, but like I said; I'm more interested in the quality of strike.

As for shot shape, my old shape was generally a push or slice.  Nothing too damaging though.  My irons were the best part of my game.  The main fault with the iron swing was the amount of fat shots I hit, digging up fairways across Scotland!!!

After my first practice, I can still say that I am still pushing the ball a lot but when I allow myself to _trust_ the swing changes (i.e. tell myself that by keeping my arms straight and following through that my shot will rocket) then the ball draws very softly (5-10 yards).  It's a pretty sight.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 4, 2013)

sounds similar to what I was getting last year, I went to the course after the lesson and was nailing it and getting 10-20 yds with what felt like a half swing so I can relate to what you are saying.

Keep it up and most of all enjoy it


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## virtuocity (Mar 4, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			How much practice does he reckon it will take before you can take it to the course or is that a how longs a piece of string question?
		
Click to expand...

I can answer that question now Gibster.  Took to my home course and shot my best score round it (88 gross, par 64).  Biggest difference was that my drives are now landing in safe areas.  

I have zero short game, which I'm not too bothered about at this stage to be honest.  I would estimate that if I put in as much effort into my chips and putts as I have (and will be) into my swing then I would reduce my score by AT LEAST 10 strokes per round.


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## big_russ (Mar 4, 2013)

Wolfman said:



			I have looked and searched for basic free S & T instruction and didnt see much at all
Maybe Justone and yourself could give us some basic set up pointers so we could at least try it before dismissing it ?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL58C812F5D67DD638

Have a look here. My coach and also an authorized S&T instructor


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## DCB (Mar 5, 2013)

Good write up on your lesson Virtuocity. Neil's a good coach and I'm sure he'll get you there if you put the work in.


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## virtuocity (Mar 5, 2013)

Some pics from my recent lesson, showing before and after.


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## JustOne (Mar 5, 2013)

Nice to see some progress mate.

Would like to see you stop chasing the ball with your right wrist and learn to keep the left one flatter by keeping the left arm straighter and extended through impact (shoulders keep turning pulling the grip/arms round).. probably the flying wedge *drill* would be the answer....

[video=youtube;F9c57NhZFl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9c57NhZFl8[/video]


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## virtuocity (Mar 22, 2013)




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## virtuocity (Apr 26, 2013)

ARRRRGGGGHHHH.  

Today I both annoyed myself and enlightened myself as to where my inconsistencies lie.

[video=youtube_share;S2LMgZuwwZs]http://youtu.be/S2LMgZuwwZs?t=13s[/video]

My 'practice' backswing seems OK.  I like that my head is perfectly still.

Then I take my proper swing and OUCHY.  Overswing, head all over the place.  No wonder things get inconsistent, particularly with the long clubs.

I also notice that I'm not extending my left leg very well.  A big part of S&T is extending the left leg and tucking the hips/butt.  I haven't worked on this over a significant period of time yet, so I'm not too bothered.  I'll concentrate on this once I stop overswinging.  

Lastly, my right arm looks quite weird through impact.  Can anyone explain?


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## JustOne (Apr 26, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			ARRRRGGGGHHHH.  

Lastly, my right arm looks quite weird through impact.  Can anyone explain?
		
Click to expand...

You are not straightening it.... I have the same issue (due to a bad shoulder) You are letting the weight of the club coming round collapse your wrists. In essence you should practice more short swings where your left arm remains bolt straight and you allow yourself to hit the ball with your left shoulder and chest as they rotate. Hips turn, shoulders follow closely behind whilst a straight left arm is punched into the ball.

When viewed from above your club should feel like it travels like this.... the grip moves back away from the target line as you rotate (the blue arrow) then your right arm should straighten in the direction of the red arrow. It won't straighten 'down the target line' because you are *rotating*.







I would consider shortening your arm swing just a bit.. make the same backswing turn with your shoulders but allow your hands to stay just a little more away from you....as if you make a 90 degree turn with your shoulders but only a 75 degree turn with your arms.


....and in that other vid where you hit your driver you need a little tilt away from the ball with your upper body... you can either literally tilt your upper body away everso slightly OR bump your left hip targetwards - only with the driver mind! You need some tilt away from the ball into impact else you'll be coming down a tad too steep for a club that has very little loft.


Lovin' the Charley Hoffman look! ....Timotei or L'OrÃ©al?


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## virtuocity (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks James!  Appreciate the feedback.



JustOne said:



			I would consider shortening your arm swing just a bit.. make the same backswing turn with your shoulders but *allow your hands to stay just a little more away from you*....as if you make a 90 degree turn with your shoulders *but only a 75 degree turn with your arms. *

Click to expand...

Remember how rubbish I am when it comes to written instruction?  Not understanding this at all.  Could you possibly translate as if you were talking to a 4 year old?



JustOne said:



			Lovin' the Charley Hoffman look! ....Timotei or L'OrÃ©al? 

Click to expand...

Dunno actually.  Don't most guys just use what their wives buy?


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## louise_a (Apr 27, 2013)

my partner in the mixed comps uses Stack and tilt, he plays pretty well, but he often does drills before taking his shots, that is annoying.


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## virtuocity (Apr 27, 2013)

louise_a said:



			my partner in the mixed comps uses Stack and tilt, he plays pretty well, but he often does drills before taking his shots, that is annoying.
		
Click to expand...


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## JustOne (Apr 27, 2013)

Ok... two swings here viewed from above... with 90 degree shoulder rotation (red line)

In the top swing the left arm (blue line) is overly connected to the chest, this makes the hands DEEP behind the shoulder when viewed down the line. When this happens the hands come down to the ball very much from the inside (flat)

In the bottom swing the shoulders have turned the same amount but the arms don't go so deep. When this happens the hands come down to the ball a lot more on plane (not flat)








(the green line is your right arm/elbow)


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## virtuocity (Apr 27, 2013)

Ah right!  I thought taking the left arm off the chest was a golfing cardinal sin.....


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## JustOne (Apr 27, 2013)

You still need to keep that connection feeling in the left armpit (upper left arm feels pressure against left pectorial) but ideally your left arm won't be glued across your chest so therefore you will have a little width at the top and the hands won't be quite so deep... this means that you can get the body and hands to swing down a little more 'together' rather than leaving the arms trailing. There's no worse feeling than the body starting to turn whilst your hands are still in your back trouser pocket and having to come from behind you before they can even get to the ball!!


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## virtuocity (Jun 10, 2013)

James, taking the club away less on the inside really did help.  

1-  Usual backswing
2-  Arms more out
3-  Arms out and more up


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## Deke (Jun 10, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Lovin' the Charley Hoffman look! ....Timotei or L'OrÃ©al? 

Click to expand...

That is exactly what I thought after watching the video! 10/10 James!


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## virtuocity (Jun 10, 2013)




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## Deke (Jun 10, 2013)

I am no hater mate, I even used Stack and Tilt for about a year, but gave up as I could never hit my driver using it and it was so hard to find a local pro that actually teaches it! Just a bit of banter chief!


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## virtuocity (Jun 10, 2013)

Deke said:



			I am no hater mate, I even used Stack and Tilt for about a year, but gave up as I could never hit my driver using it and it was so hard to find a local pro that actually teaches it! Just a bit of banter chief! 

Click to expand...

No drama- was just an excuse to post a Haters Gonna Hate gif.


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## virtuocity (Jun 10, 2013)

By the way Deke- my S&T coach is closer to you than he is to me!!!  

Also- looked up your course.  Looks nice and membership prices are very sensible.  Was there a joining fee on top?


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## Deke (Jun 10, 2013)

Nope! Pretty good value if you ask me, Alyth is a really nice track. I am using The Rotary Swing system as taught by Chuck Quinton with great success, so little chance of going back to S&T, but thanks for the info! :thup:

P.S. If you ever fancy a game give me a PM


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## garyinderry (Jun 11, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			ARRRRGGGGHHHH.  

Today I both annoyed myself and enlightened myself as to where my inconsistencies lie.



My 'practice' backswing seems OK.  I like that my head is perfectly still.

Then I take my proper swing and OUCHY.  Overswing, head all over the place.  No wonder things get inconsistent, particularly with the long clubs.

I also notice that I'm not extending my left leg very well.  A big part of S&T is extending the left leg and tucking the hips/butt.  I haven't worked on this over a significant period of time yet, so I'm not too bothered.  I'll concentrate on this once I stop overswinging.  

Lastly, my right arm looks quite weird through impact.  Can anyone explain?
		
Click to expand...


I wouldn't worry too much about head movement.   its impossible to fully turn without your head moving a little.   check out little lexi Thompson. she throws her head and everything into it.  smokes it !!

[video=youtube;ANbfUReXxdg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANbfUReXxdg[/video]


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