# Minister grabs activist



## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48718725

Thoughts please me dears


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## IanM (Jun 21, 2019)

Anyone who is not Labour/Green/EU Federalist/SNP/Socialist/Minority etc etc may be jostled, beaten, attacked, shouted at, de-platformed, have jokes about acid attacks made etc etc etc without any reaction....

Tory chucking out a protestor.... sacking/court action will follow.

Funny old world!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2019)

Lady Doon's view is that he looks like he has done that before and enjoyed it.

My view total plonker.
He probably would have been the first under the table, pushing others out of the way, if the unarmed female had a knife or gun.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 21, 2019)

I had a bit of a rant about this in the irritations thread. I have no problem with what he did and I'm annoyed that he both apologised and has been suspended. Greenpeace and the person concerned are going to milk this, understandably, but he and the govt should have stood their ground. The protesters shouldn't have been there, they were both a risk and an annoyance. The protestor he grabbed had separated from the group and I get why he intervened 

They also need to have a damn big discussion about how security failed so dismally and allowed the whole situation to happen.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2019)

IanM said:



			Anyone who is not Labour/Green/EU Federalist/SNP/Socialist/Minority etc etc may be jostled, beaten, attacked, shouted at, de-platformed, have jokes about acid attacks made etc etc etc without any reaction....

Tory chucking out a protestor.... sacking/court action will follow.

Funny old world! 

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Well, the tory boys 'n girls do get a bit of an easy ride from the mainly right wing press... Especially from arsewipes like Rod Liddle...


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2019)

As he said, he didn't know if the woman was armed or not. Think he should be praised for having the courage to grab someone who may have been armed.


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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As he said, he didn't know if the woman was armed or not. Think he should be praised for having the courage to grab someone who may have been armed.
		
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Spot on ðŸ‘


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## williamalex1 (Jun 21, 2019)

Gate crash a private party , you get what you deserve, unless you're a lady in red like Julia Roberts . Seemingly they tried to bring the traffic to a standstill in Edinburgh today, but the local authority beat them to it


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## drdel (Jun 21, 2019)

She had circumvented security,  there was a possibility she was 'armed'. Had this proved to be the case he would be a hero. The guy made a quick decision which under the circumstances was, in fact, the most prudent.

It does look like she was grinning as she left.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2019)

Were was Hammonds Close Protection Team, in the back having some posh nosh. Those that think this was over the top is either of another political persuasion this time around or someone who moans for moaning sake.

The normal candidate to the fore.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 21, 2019)

I think that the lady in question should just be glad that Greenpeace didn't send her to a meeting chaired by Donald Trump or she would have been grabbed by a very different part of her anatomy.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2019)

When I first read she had been assaulted I thought what kind of a man would put his hands on a woman. I watched the video and she thought it was funny. She is smiling her head off and yet was " assaulted". Quite frankly the guy has gone down in my estimation for apologising.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2019)

She should not have been there, and would reasonably have expected to be strongly restrained, but he could have grabbed her and held her until security arrived to remove her.  He didn't.  He quite violently grappled with her and clamped his hand around her neck with his fingers digging in.  Unnecessary.

But many on 'his side' will see no issues with what he did, and they will be the same people who would be most likely attack Jo Brand for what she said - she being on the 'other side'.

I heard someone recently opine that a probably quite large number of the Tory Members likely to vote for BJ can happily ignore all is dalliances and misdemeanors because BJ does and says the things that they would like to do and say - but - being decent, principled Tories - they feel they can't and so don't.   I suspect there is an element of that with this incident.  Many who applaud what he did would like to do just what he did - just as forceably - though quite why environment campaigners are considered to be on the 'other side' I fail to see - weren't the Tories under Cameron relaunched as a party with an environmental focus - hence the green tree logo?


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## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She should not have been there, and would reasonably have expected to be strongly restrained, but he could have grabbed her and held her until security arrived to remove her.  He didn't.  He quite violently grappled with her and clamped his hand around her neck with his fingers digging in.  Unnecessary.

But many on 'his side' will see no issues with what he did, and they will be the same people who would be most likely attack Jo Brand for what she said - she being on the 'other side'.

I heard someone recently opine that a probably quite large number of the Tory Members likely to vote for BJ can happily ignore all is dalliances and misdemeanors because BJ does and says the things that they would like to do and say - but - being decent, principled Tories - they feel they can't and so don't.   I suspect there is an element of that with this incident.  Many who applaud what he did would like to do just what he did - just as forceably - though quite why environment campaigners are considered to be on the 'other side' I fail to see - weren't the Tories under Cameron relaunched as a party with an environmental focus - hence the green tree logo?
		
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One would suggest that the tories promise on zero co emissions confirms your last sentence. Something Hammond dropped out once he re started his speech.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			One would suggest that the tories promise on zero co emissions confirms your last sentence. Something Hammond dropped out once he re started his speech.
		
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Bit strange then that so many Tories seem to oppose climate change campaigners and activism - they should be applauding the audacity and bravery of such as that girl last night.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2019)

Breaking news, once again SILH "Heard Someone " talking bollocks. He should stay out of his barbers.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit strange then that so many Tories seem to oppose climate change campaigners and activism - they should be applauding the audacity and bravery of such as that girl last night.
		
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Any evidence or is this something you heard.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She should not have been there, and would reasonably have expected to be strongly restrained, but he could have grabbed her and held her until security arrived to remove her.  He didn't.  He quite violently grappled with her and clamped his hand around her neck with his fingers digging in.  Unnecessary.

But many on 'his side' will see no issues with what he did, and they will be the same people who would be most likely attack Jo Brand for what she said - she being on the 'other side'.

I heard someone recently opine that a probably quite large number of the Tory Members likely to vote for BJ can happily ignore all is dalliances and misdemeanors because BJ does and says the things that they would like to do and say - but - being decent, principled Tories - they feel they can't and so don't.   I suspect there is an element of that with this incident.  Many who applaud what he did would like to do just what he did - just as forceably - though quite why environment campaigners are considered to be on the 'other side' I fail to see - weren't the Tories under Cameron relaunched as a party with an environmental focus - hence the green tree logo?
		
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A Toyphobic post.  You are the rabid inverse of that which you attack.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit strange then that so many Tories seem to oppose climate change campaigners and activism - they should be applauding the audacity and bravery of such as that girl last night.
		
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That's a very odd comment, the Tories have promised zero emissions. They are the only western government to do so, surely it is a step in the right direction. Let me assure you it is not just some of the Tories that oppose activism. It is how that activism that takes place that people oppose, and not just politicians. Is lobbing a milkshake ok. What about lobbing battery acid.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			That's a very odd comment, the Tories have promised zero emissions. They are the only western government to do so, surely it is a step in the right direction. Let me assure you it is not just some of the Tories that oppose activism. It is how that activism that takes place that people oppose, and not just politicians. Is lobbing a milkshake ok. What about lobbing battery acid.
		
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How much value can you place on a politicians promise?


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## User62651 (Jun 21, 2019)

Overblown but he should've blocked and then guided her out without getting as physical. Guessing he'd had a couple of drinks, looks wound up, not scared.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 21, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			How much value can you place on a politicians promise?
		
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At this moment in time, none.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Overblown but he should've blocked and then guided her out without getting as physical. Guessing he'd had a couple of drinks, looks wound up, not scared.
		
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Comments like this are easy when taking a detached view, just think if someone gatecrashed a private party you were attending.


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## User62651 (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Comments like this are easy when taking a detached view, just think if someone gatecrashed a private party you were attending.
		
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So you'd grab a woman in evening wear by the neck if she gatecrashed your party? Wow.


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## Slab (Jun 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			When I first read she had been assaulted I thought what kind of a man would put his hands on a woman. I watched the video and she thought it was funny. She is smiling her head off and yet was " assaulted". Quite frankly the guy has gone down in my estimation for apologising.
		
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A lot being made that it was a woman but at the time he took action I doubt the intruders gender had been established let alone their intentions


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2019)

Slab said:



			A lot being made that it was a woman but at the time he took action I doubt the intruders gender had been established let alone their intentions 

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Her being a woman should not be relevant. The media made a fuss of that, old fashioned viewpoint. We all want to live in a equal world don't we?


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## Chrisb83 (Jun 22, 2019)

The whole thing is ridiculous and just sums up the world we live in now and the negative effect of social media. Everything is recorded and review by 1000s and twisted in a way that suits their own agenda for people to then jump on. Some people can just find a problem in anything. You see moaning about someone donating to charity not been the right one of giving enough.

No one can do anything these days without someone been offended. Imagine if this person who remember shouldn't be there in the first place had gone on to hurt someone or worse, social media would be all over it saying why did so many people just sit there and not do anything. We're creating a world where no one will do anything due to fear of what the consequence might be.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Her being a woman should not be relevant. The media made a fuss of that, old fashioned viewpoint. We all want to live in a equal world don't we?
		
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Umm i can see what you are saying but grabbing a women is it striking a women should be seen as different to the same action towards a man , thatâ€™s not old fashioned . Would anyone one on here strike a lady ?


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## Dellboy (Jun 22, 2019)

In the heat of the moment he took action, Well done I say.

He then took control of her and got her out of the way.

All text book in my view, *you see a threat, you take control and you own that threat.*

The fact it was a women makes no difference at all, she had a bag and that could have contained anything.


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## Dellboy (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would anyone one on here strike a lady ?
		
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Depends, if she was just being a pain, then no, if she touched my wife or children then hell yes !!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So you'd grab a woman in evening wear by the neck if she gatecrashed your party? Wow.

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If I was in the public eye then I probably would, there are all sorts of nutters around, some throw acid in people's faces.  Maybe he should have been more restrained and offered her a drink. Get real man.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2019)

People supporting the Tories stance on zero emissions in 31 YEARS TIME.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm i can see what you are saying but grabbing a women is it striking a women should be seen as different to the same action towards a man , thatâ€™s not old fashioned . *Would anyone one on here strike a lady ?*

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In the right circumstances, yes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			In the right circumstances, yes.
		
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This, no question. 

I have never hit anyone Male or female so I'm not looking for bother but I wouldn't differentiate if I or my family were threatened.


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm i can see what you are saying but grabbing a women is it striking a women should be seen as different to the same action towards a man , thatâ€™s not old fashioned . Would anyone one on here strike a lady ?
		
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If she came at me with a machete I sure wouldn't ask her if she wanted sugar in her coffee. Its about context of the situation AND the wider context of the world today. 

Although she was in an evening gown, with little room to hide anything, what's not to say she was at the extreme end of the Greenpeace movement.


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## Scozzy (Jun 22, 2019)

For me looking at the pics,he's just another entitled bully who has no problems physically assaulting women, she'd clearly wandered around most of the room brandishing nothing more than a red dress and yet look at his face...he's done that before,pig of a man who clearly can't have a woman interrupting his foiegrai and chardy.. wonder what he'd do if it was a 6ft bruiser covered in tatts.... spineless git.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So you'd grab a woman in evening wear by the neck if she gatecrashed your party? Wow.

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She gatecrashed a party so no one had any idea who she was or what she was gonna do!


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2019)

I dont actually know who he is. However i am sure the press have looked into whether he has
 â€œ previousâ€. Which at the moment has not been mentioned.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Scozzy said:



			For me looking at the pics,he's just another entitled bully who has no problems physically assaulting women, she'd clearly wandered around most of the room brandishing nothing more than a red dress and yet look at his face...he's done that before,pig of a man who clearly can't have a woman interrupting his foiegrai and chardy.. wonder what he'd do if it was a 6ft bruiser covered in tatts.... spineless git.
		
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No need to post that drivel twice


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2019)

Been following the enquiry into the Borough market terrorist attack. Apparantly one of the terrorist was shot when they were a couple of feet away. Its seems to me that with hindsight you are a couple of feet or a couple of seconds away from being a hero or a spineless git.


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Been following the enquiry into the Borough market terrorist attack. Apparantly one of the terrorist was shot when they were a couple of feet away. Its seems to me that with hindsight you are a couple of feet or a couple of seconds away from being a hero or a spineless git.
		
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I can't believe you are comparing these two things lol. Do you seriously think anyone would be claiming he was in the right had he not concocted his cock and bull "thought she had a weapon" defence?


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I can't believe you are comparing these two things lol. Do you seriously think anyone would be claiming he was in the right had he not concocted his cock and bull "thought she had a weapon" defence?
		
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But can you prove he didn't think what he said he did? Personally I don't know either way but I'd err on the side of caution rather than have my guts hanging out.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I can't believe you are comparing these two things lol. Do you seriously think anyone would be claiming he was in the right had he not concocted his cock and bull "thought she had a weapon" defence?
		
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All i am saying is, with hindsight. If security had done there job. There would if been no story. 30 women dressed in red. Theres a  clue there. These people that say they are protestors, are they protestors or anarchists. They have no respect for the law. If 30 women can gatecrash that event with high profile people there, who else could. I don't think think they would of been waving placards either.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But can you prove he didn't think what he said he did? Personally I don't know either way but I'd err on the side of caution rather than have my guts hanging out.
		
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This ^^^


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I can't believe you are comparing these two things lol. Do you seriously think anyone would be claiming he was in the right had he not concocted his cock and bull "thought she had a weapon" defence?
		
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She couldâ€™ve easily grabbed something from the table to use as a weapon


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But can you prove he didn't think what he said he did? Personally I don't know either way but I'd err on the side of caution rather than have my guts hanging out.
		
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I can't either Bri, but watching the footage he never takes his eyes of hers and doesn't even attempt to look for the fabled weapon. For me he's seen her prancing around the room, got the red mist and made a lunge as he's had enough of it all.


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			She couldâ€™ve easily grabbed something from the table to use as a weapon
		
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So could any waiter/waitress in disguise.
By the same token the fella could have taken a knife and stabbed the woman.
How far do we take this?
It's almost normalising violence, if someone feels threatened they can lash out and claim they thought the other person had a weapon or grabbed at something to use as a weapon.
Mad a tell thi.


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I can't either Bri, but watching the footage he never takes his eyes of hers and doesn't even attempt to look for the fabled weapon. For me he's seen her prancing around the room, got the red mist and made a lunge as he's had enough of it all.
		
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Did he see her prancing around the room? I'm only playing Devil's Advocate but I'd rather deal in absolutes in this mad world.


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## Beezerk (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did he see her prancing around the room? I'm only playing Devil's Advocate but I'd rather deal in absolutes in this mad world.
		
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I'd rather make things up in my head to suit my argument


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## Scozzy (Jun 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			No need to post that drivel twice
		
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I hadn't realised I did until you informed me! Thanks,am happy to stand by it, surely a dozen ways a real man could of dealt with that situation but he did nothing but show his true colours...a git pure and simple and a spineless one at that


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			She couldâ€™ve easily grabbed something from the table to use as a weapon
		
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Yes, she could also have been a fembot and shot bullets from her bra.  After all, there is no end to the number of scenarios you can come up with to desperately justify what he did.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Funny how those castigating him tend to be the ones who are anti Tory.  Looks like an excise to vent politcal frustrations rather than address the act.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

I can't believe so many people are getting so upset at a man ejecting a woman from somewhere she had absolutely no right to be.
Did he use force?   Absolutely.
Was it excessive?   Absolutely not.

Well done, I'd say.
Stupid woman, what did she expect?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If she came at me with a machete I sure wouldn't ask her if she wanted sugar in her coffee. Its about context of the situation AND the wider context of the world today.

Although she was in an evening gown, with little room to hide anything, what's not to say she was at the extreme end of the Greenpeace movement.
		
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How many â€œextremeâ€ Greenpeace demonstrators do you see these days ? She wasnâ€™t some sort of secret agent with things hidden inside the gown. It was a â€œdisruptiveâ€ demonstration which whilst annoying should have been left to security to deal with - just let them shout away , stand back and let the people being paid to deal with them. Taking matters into your own hands is a very slippery slope , even more so if the person is not trained , all it needed was for her to slip because of his actions for things to go wrong - you could tell he was very angry about what they had done and acted that way


Slime said:



			I can't believe so many people are getting so upset at a man ejecting a woman from somewhere she had absolutely no right to be.
Did he use force?   Absolutely.
Was it excessive?   Absolutely not.

Well done, I'd say.
Stupid woman, what did she expect?
		
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First question - did he have the right to use force ? Was she threatening him ? Was she threatening anyone , was she using force against anyone ?. There was no need for him to use force because no one was in any immediate danger 

And excessive - who deems that ? He grabbed by the throat and then marched her out by the back of her neck - was that force more than what was required ? For me the answer is yes - he had no need or right to manhandle her the way he did

And Iâ€™m not being upset by it but you could see that he got very angry about a protest and snapped. Some will claim him some sort of hero which for me is really poor


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2019)

Not a hero, just someone doing the right thing. Ask the French and Russians about how extreme Greenpeace can be.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many â€œextremeâ€ Greenpeace demonstrators do you see these days ? She wasnâ€™t some sort of secret agent with things hidden inside the gown. It was a â€œdisruptiveâ€ demonstration which whilst annoying should have been left to security to deal with - just let them shout away , stand back and let the people being paid to deal with them. Taking matters into your own hands is a very slippery slope , even more so if the person is not trained , all it needed was for her to slip because of his actions for things to go wrong - you could tell he was very angry about what they had done and acted that way


First question - did he have the right to use force ? Was she threatening him ? Was she threatening anyone , was she using force against anyone ?. There was no need for him to use force because no one was in any immediate danger

And excessive - who deems that ? He grabbed by the throat and then marched her out by the back of her neck - was that force more than what was required ? For me the answer is yes - he had no need or right to manhandle her the way he did

And Iâ€™m not being upset by it but you could see that he got very angry about a protest and snapped. Some will claim him some sort of hero which for me is really poor
		
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Surely the throat is at the front of the neck.

I only saw him holding her at the back of the neck as he frog-marched her out.

I am not saying that he handled the situation well but it is dangerous to present an exaggerated picture.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not a hero, just someone doing the *right thing. *Ask the French and Russians about how extreme Greenpeace can be.
		
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Is it really the right thing ? Right now he has been suspended with the police looking into his actions - saw a longer clip earlier and saw him marched her out gripping round the back of the neck ? Is that really the right thing to do ?. Is the right thing not to just let security deal with it and stay out of it ? 

And we arenâ€™t in France or Russia and I canâ€™t recall the last violent Greenpeace protest in the UK


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Surely the throat is at the front of the neck.

I only saw him holding her at the back of the neck as he frog-marched her out.

I am not saying that he handled the situation well but it is dangerous to present an exaggerated picture.
		
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He initially grabbed her by the throat quickly at the start and then turned her round and marched her out by holding the her neck 




The worst thing is that they were allowed to get that far in the first place - shocking security


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many â€œextremeâ€ Greenpeace demonstrators do you see these days ? She wasnâ€™t some sort of secret agent with things hidden inside the gown. It was a â€œdisruptiveâ€ demonstration which whilst annoying should have been left to security to deal with - just let them shout away , stand back and let the people being paid to deal with them. Taking matters into your own hands is a very slippery slope , even more so if the person is not trained , all it needed was for her to slip because of his actions for things to go wrong - you could tell he was very angry about what they had done and acted that way


First question - did he have the right to use force ? Was she threatening him ? Was she threatening anyone , was she using force against anyone ?. There was no need for him to use force because no one was in any immediate danger

And excessive - who deems that ? He grabbed by the throat and then marched her out by the back of her neck - was that force more than what was required ? For me the answer is yes - he had no need or right to manhandle her the way he did

And Iâ€™m not being upset by it but you could see that he got very angry about a protest and snapped. Some will claim him some sort of hero which for me is really poor
		
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Dont exaggerate,  no ones calling him a 'Hero'   At times you have to use a gut reaction to situations as you only have a split second to react.  When the knife is in your neck or the acid in your face its too late, you must know this.   High profile people are particularity vunerable these days.  On balance I can't see how any reasonable person could see anything wrong. If she doesn't want that kind of treatment then she should keep to legal methods of protest.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many â€œextremeâ€ Greenpeace demonstrators do you see these days ? She wasnâ€™t some sort of secret agent *with things hidden inside the gown.*

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In the picture you've posted in a later response she's clearly got a bag with her. How can anyone know what she could have in that?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He initially grabbed her by the throat quickly at the start and then turned her round and marched her out by holding the her neck

View attachment 27602


The worst thing is that they were allowed to get that far in the first place - shocking security
		
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The pictures don't seem to show the protestor being grabbed by the throat. 

They do show her being snatched by her upper arms and torso and being turned back the way she had just come.

She didn't appear very willing to leave.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Scozzy said:



			I hadn't realised I did until you informed me! Thanks,am happy to stand by it, surely a dozen ways a real man could of dealt with that situation but he did nothing but show his true colours...a twat pure and simple and a spineless one at that
		
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No one had any idea who she was or what she was going to do so in my eyes thatâ€™s not spineless!
I bet your the sort who thought we should sit down and talk with ISIS!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont exaggerate,  no ones calling him a 'Hero'   At times you have to use a gut reaction to situations as you only have a split second to react.  When the knife is in your neck or the acid in your face its too late, you must know this.   High profile people are particularity vunerable these days.  On balance I can't see how any reasonable person could see anything wrong. If she doesn't want that kind of treatment then she should keep to legal methods of protest.
		
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Knife , Acid - when was the last time a lady Greenpeace activist threw acid or knifed someone in the neck - she walked past loads of people and was doing nothing but shouting , you tell me not to exaggerate yet your guilty of doing the same , she posed no physical threat the same with all the ladies in there. The guy wasnâ€™t being threatened by her in any way - she was protesting using her voice and some handed out leaflets. There was no â€œgut reaction or split second reaction , she didnâ€™t pop out of nowhere , she and others were walking around the room - he got angry and snapped when she got close.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Knife , Acid - when was the last time a lady Greenpeace activist threw acid or knifed someone in the neck - she walked past loads of people and was doing nothing but shouting , you tell me not to exaggerate yet your guilty of doing the same , she posed no physical threat the same with all the ladies in there. The guy wasnâ€™t being threatened by her in any way - she was protesting using her voice and some handed out leaflets. There was no â€œgut reaction or split second reaction , she didnâ€™t pop out of nowhere , she and others were walking around the room - he got angry and snapped when she got close.
		
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Are  you aware that there were also men involved in the protest in the room and to call the manner in which she was approaching the top table as "walking round the room " is somewhat disingenuous.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			In the picture you've posted in a later response she's clearly got a bag with her. How can anyone know what she could have in that?
		
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You canâ€™t know - just the same with anyone with a bag , just canâ€™t judge but you canâ€™t also go for the worst judgment. 

I could understand his reaction if she leapt at him when he was walking or she appeared from nowhere but he was watching her walk around and when she went to walk past he went for her to throw her out. Stopping her and then getting her to leave is no issue , itâ€™s just the manner he did it was very close to the mark imo and it wouldnâ€™t surprise to see him charged


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## Tashyboy (Jun 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			I can't believe so many people are getting so upset at a man ejecting a woman from somewhere she had absolutely no right to be.
Did he use force?   Absolutely.
Was it excessive?   Absolutely not.

Well done, I'd say.
Stupid woman, what did she expect?
		
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Political views aside, would there be or could there be any criminal charges brought against either persons involved. Plus could either of said persons think with hindsight I would of not do what I did again. ðŸ¤”


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You canâ€™t know - just the same with anyone with a bag , just canâ€™t judge but you canâ€™t also go for the worst judgment. 

I could understand his reaction if she leapt at him when he was walking or she appeared from nowhere but he was watching her walk around and when she went to walk past he went for her to throw her out. Stopping her and then getting her to leave is no issue , itâ€™s just the manner he did it was very close to the mark imo and it wouldnâ€™t surprise to see him charged
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Knife , Acid - when was the last time a lady Greenpeace activist threw acid or knifed someone in the neck - she walked past loads of people and was doing nothing but shouting , you tell me not to exaggerate yet your guilty of doing the same , she posed no physical threat the same with all the ladies in there. The guy wasnâ€™t being threatened by her in any way - she was protesting using her voice and some handed out leaflets. There was no â€œgut reaction or split second reaction , she didnâ€™t pop out of nowhere , she and others were walking around the room - he got angry and snapped when she got close.[/QUOTE

You donâ€™t know that she wasnâ€™t a physical threat!
		
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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many â€œextremeâ€ Greenpeace demonstrators do you see these days ? She wasnâ€™t some sort of secret agent with things hidden inside the gown. It was a â€œdisruptiveâ€ demonstration which whilst annoying should have been left to security to deal with - just let them shout away , stand back and let the people being paid to deal with them. Taking matters into your own hands is a very slippery slope , even more so if the person is not trained , all it needed was for her to slip because of his actions for things to go wrong - you could tell he was very angry about what they had done and acted that way
		
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Everyone knows *after* the fact that she didn't pose a violent threat. It was a noisy, disruptive threat until she approached the top table and encroached on people's personal space in the manner she did.

Back of the room shouting, no problem. As you say, let security deal with it. Getting as close to people as she did, I have no problem whatsoever in the way he dealt with what could have been a dangerous situation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Everyone knows *after* the fact that she didn't pose a violent threat. It was a noisy, disruptive threat until she approached the top table and encroached on people's personal space in the manner she did.

Back of the room shouting, no problem. As you say, let security deal with it. Getting as close to people as she did, I have no problem whatsoever in the way he dealt with what could have been a dangerous situation.
		
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There was apparently about 30 people there - many walking around shouting , handing stuff out , people going close to others , only one person thought it was that dangerous to react. 

The question is did he react because he was angry or did he react to protect someone ? This women wasnâ€™t going at anyone , she wasnâ€™t attacking anyone , none of them where - so did he snap when he got angry and react ? It certainly seems that way. 

None of the ladies appeared to get violent or show any signs of being violent and they were all near people as well - some closer than the lady that was grabbed.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*First question - did he have the right to use force ? Was she threatening him ?* *Was she threatening anyone , was she using force against anyone ?. There was no need for him to use force because no one was in any immediate danger*

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He didn't know who she was, why she was there or whether or not she was threatening him or anyone else, or just about to.
How the hell was he supposed to know whether or not anyone was in danger?


[/QUOTE]*And excessive - who deems that ? He grabbed by the throat and then marched her out by the back of her neck - was that force more than what was required ? For me the answer is yes - he had no need or right to manhandle her the way he did*[/QUOTE]

Grabbed by the throat? I don't think so. He had every right to eject her from the building she had no right to be in, every right.
And as for who deems force to be excessive, in this instance I'll volunteer for that particular job and my decision is no, it was not excessive force.
Oh, and where are all the bruises and why is she not taking matters any further?


[/QUOTE]*And Iâ€™m not being upset by it but you could see that he got very angry about a protest and snapped. Some will claim him some sort of hero which for me is really poor*[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't call him a hero, but if I was in the room I would certainly have thanked him for doing what he did.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			He didn't know who she was, why she was there or whether or not she was threatening him or anyone else, or just about to.
How the hell was he supposed to know whether or not anyone was in danger?

Grabbed by the throat? I don't think so. He had every right to eject her from the building she had no right to be in, every right.
And as for who deems force to be excessive, in this instance I'll volunteer for that particular job and my decision is no, it was not excessive force.
Oh, and where are all the bruises and why is she not taking matters any further?


I wouldn't call him a hero, but if I was in the room I would certainly have thanked him for doing what he did.
		
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She wasnâ€™t a lone women in there - there was at least 30 - none were acting in any violent or aggressive way to any of the guests - not one guest was attacked in anyway. She was a Greenpeace activist - not exactly the height of violence in this country.

Did he really have every right ? Really ? Was he security and given the authority ? And he is under investigation by the police I believe and suspended for his actions with many condemning it - and bruises ?! Do you have to have a bruise for the force to be excessive ? Can you tell me why someone is needed to be grabbed by the neck when being marched out when that person is not being violent or aggressive


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I could understand his reaction if she leapt at him when he was walking or she appeared from nowhere but he was watching her walk around and when she went to walk past he went for her to throw her out. Stopping her and then getting her to leave is no issue , itâ€™s just the manner he did it was very close to the mark imo and* it wouldnâ€™t surprise me to see him charged*

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It wouldn't surprise me either.
That's just another sad reflection on this increasingly pathetic society we are now becoming.


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She wasnâ€™t a lone women in there - there was at least 30 - none were acting in any violent or aggressive way to any of the guests - not one guest was attacked in anyway. She was a Greenpeace activist - not exactly the height of violence in this country.

Did he really have every right ? Really ? Was he security and given the authority ? And he is under investigation by the police I believe and suspended for his actions with many condemning it - and bruises ?! Do you have to have a bruise for the force to be excessive ? *Can you tell me why someone is needed to be grabbed by the neck when being marched out when that person is not being violent or aggressive*

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Yes, but I feel it would be a pointless exercise.


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She wasnâ€™t a lone women in there - there was at least 30 - none were acting in any violent or aggressive way to any of the guests - not one guest was attacked in anyway. She was a Greenpeace activist - not exactly the height of violence in this country.

Did he really have every right ? Really ? Was he security and given the authority ? And he is under investigation by the police I believe and suspended for his actions with many condemning it - and bruises ?! Do you have to have a bruise for the force to be excessive ? Can you tell me why someone is needed to be grabbed by the neck when being marched out when that person is not being violent or aggressive
		
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They were gatecrashers and had no right to be there so they got what they deserved!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			Yes, but I feel it would be a pointless exercise.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ined-protection-officer-mark-field-protester/


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## Dando (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ined-protection-officer-mark-field-protester/

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Thatâ€™s his opinion and it clearly differs from others so this is yet another thread thatâ€™ll go round in bloody circles!


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was apparently about 30 people there - many walking around shouting , handing stuff out , people going close to others , only one person thought it was that dangerous to react.

The question is did he react because he was angry or did he react to protect someone ? This women wasnâ€™t going at anyone , she wasnâ€™t attacking anyone , none of them where - so did he snap when he got angry and react ? It certainly seems that way.

None of the ladies appeared to get violent or show any signs of being violent and they were all near people as well - some closer than the lady that was grabbed.
		
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If you want to throw possible scenarios at it, how about distraction... all the noise and commotion could have been to allow an activist to get near the top table. We're getting a rash of hugger muggers here in southern Spain at present. Girl full of smiles and bonhomie comes up, joined by her mate when she's stopped you. Watch and wallet gone. A number of people have pushed them away. One has been slashed with a knife and several beat up. From nothing in view to a serious assault in a flash.

We all know it was Greenpeace *after* the fact. We all know it was a noisy, attention seeking demo *after* the fact.

Did he use excessive force? The smile on her face suggests not. If he'd stood in front of her trying reasonable argument do you honestly think she would have said, "ok, we'll leave then." The angst shown by the yogurt knitters after the fact is pathetic. He didn't thump her. He didn't wrestle her to the ground.

Just imagine the headlines if she'd had a knife and stabbed someone. "Cowardly Tory MP's and supporters standby and do nothing." No doubt there'll be calls for her to get compensation, a safari in Africa and a grant from the local council... just pathetic.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She wasnâ€™t a lone women in there - there was at least 30 - none were acting in any violent or aggressive way to any of the guests - not one guest was attacked in anyway. She was a Greenpeace activist - not exactly the height of violence in this country.

Did he really have every right ? Really ? Was he security and given the authority ? And he is under investigation by the police I believe and suspended for his actions with many condemning it - and bruises ?! Do you have to have a bruise for the force to be excessive ? Can you tell me why someone is needed to be grabbed by the neck when being marched out when that person is not being violent or aggressive
		
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You are typical of what is wrong with society.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are typical of what is wrong with society.
		
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Sorry can you explain that please ? 

All because I donâ€™t like seeing a man use his physical strength against a women in a poor and over the top way. 

Iâ€™m not sure why you need to start pointing fingers once again just because someone has an opinion that differs from yours


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## Slime (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ined-protection-officer-mark-field-protester/

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He's wrong.


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## Wilson (Jun 22, 2019)

He overreacted, but not as much as everyone whoâ€™s acting like he put her in a full nelson, and banged her head off a few pillars on the way out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			He's wrong.
		
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Yet he is trained in protection ? 

This summed it all in an article I read about it and good old Boris 

*So many women will watch that footage of Barker being shoved against a wall, and instinctively wince. You donâ€™t need to have felt the sharp edge of a manâ€™s temper to be afraid of it, and there is something viscerally disturbing about the sight of a hand closing in on a vulnerable neck. If he really thought she was so dangerous, why not wrestle her to the ground? And if he just wanted to get her out before she caused trouble, why not steer her by the elbow? As it is, the whole thing looks horribly reminiscent of a controlling husband, hustling away a wife who has had a few drinks at a party and is now in danger of making a scene, while everyone else stares uncomfortably at their shoes.

But not everyone will see it that way. All over the country this morning, there will have been millions of Tory voters harrumphing that frankly she got what was coming to her; that it was her fault for bursting into a private dinner, wilfully causing a security scare when she must have known everyone was on edge. What happened split the room, never mind the country, with some guests reportedly horrified at what they saw as an overreaction while others broke into applause after she was removed.*

Interesting couple of paragraphs


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ined-protection-officer-mark-field-protester/

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The highest value "target" in that room was the Chancellor. The lady in question was making her way towards him carrying a bag that could have contained a weapon. The MP stepped in a prevented her from reaching Phillip Hammond and neutralised the "threat". Seems like job done to me.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet he is trained in protection ?

This summed it all in an article I read about it and good old Boris

*So many women will watch that footage of Barker being shoved against a wall, and instinctively wince. You donâ€™t need to have felt the sharp edge of a manâ€™s temper to be afraid of it, and there is something viscerally disturbing about the sight of a hand closing in on a vulnerable neck. If he really thought she was so dangerous, why not wrestle her to the ground? And if he just wanted to get her out before she caused trouble, why not steer her by the elbow? As it is, the whole thing looks horribly reminiscent of a controlling husband, hustling away a wife who has had a few drinks at a party and is now in danger of making a scene, while everyone else stares uncomfortably at their shoes.*

*But not everyone will see it that way. All over the country this morning, there will have been millions of Tory voters harrumphing that frankly she got what was coming to her; that it was her fault for bursting into a private dinner, wilfully causing a security scare when she must have known everyone was on edge. What happened split the room, never mind the country, with some guests reportedly horrified at what they saw as an overreaction while others broke into applause after she was removed.*

Interesting couple of paragraphs
		
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A very subjective viewpoint and as for the "trained protection officer"; have we any idea by whom he was trained. 

Knowing that might help confirm, or otherwise, the value of his opinion on the matter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			A very subjective viewpoint and as for the "trained protection officer"; have we any idea by whom he was trained.

Knowing that might help confirm, or otherwise, the value of his opinion on the matter.
		
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Yet the author has summed the feelings on this thread perfectly

And the trained protection officer is ex military Iâ€™m guessing training started there and then onto a number of courses from there but anyone who carries out close protection will need a license and you only get one of them from completing a certain level of training.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet the author has summed the feelings on this thread perfectly

And the trained protection officer is ex military Iâ€™m guessing training started there and then onto a number of courses from there but anyone who carries out close protection will need a license and you only get one of them from completing a certain level of training.
		
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So we still don't know the level or quality of this man's training. 

Plenty of quotes have been obtained by the Press in the past and the source subsequently discredited. 

In any event his is just one opinion amongst many.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 22, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So we still don't know the level or quality of this man's training.

Plenty of quotes have been obtained by the Press in the past and the source subsequently discredited.

In any event his is just one opinion amongst many.
		
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ðŸ™„ seriously ? He is a licensed close protection office - you can only get that license by completing a certain level of training and passing exams.

Yes itâ€™s his opinion but itâ€™s an opinion coming from someone with training and a license. As he said if he carried out the actions the man did he would lose his license - surely he is best placed to voice that  opinion and how can someone say he is â€œwrongâ€


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm i can see what you are saying but grabbing a women is it striking a women should be seen as different to the same action towards a man , thatâ€™s not old fashioned . Would anyone one on here strike a lady ?
		
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If she was coming at you with a weapon?


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2019)

As someone who was "trained" in the protection of others and a member of the military I disagree with the assessment of the other "trained" person.


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it really the right thing ? Right now he has been suspended with the police looking into his actions - saw a longer clip earlier and saw him marched her out gripping round the back of the neck ? Is that really the right thing to do ?. Is the right thing not to just let security deal with it and stay out of it ?

And we arenâ€™t in France or Russia and I canâ€™t recall the last violent Greenpeace protest in the UK
		
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Very unlikely that he will be charged. It appears you're only interested in acts of violence in the U.K.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry can you explain that please ?

All because I donâ€™t like seeing a man use his physical strength against a women in a poor and over the top way.

Iâ€™m not sure why you need to start pointing fingers once again just because someone has an opinion that differs from yours
		
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That's very ironic.  You have been pointing fingers at people with different opinions to yours.    

You are either taking this view to promote your saintimonious image or you are a member of the yogurt hugging easily offended. Both are elements of what's wrong in society.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet he is trained in protection ?

This summed it all in an article I read about it and good old Boris

*So many women will watch that footage of Barker being shoved against a wall, and instinctively wince. You donâ€™t need to have felt the sharp edge of a manâ€™s temper to be afraid of it, and there is something viscerally disturbing about the sight of a hand closing in on a vulnerable neck. If he really thought she was so dangerous, why not wrestle her to the ground? And if he just wanted to get her out before she caused trouble, why not steer her by the elbow? As it is, the whole thing looks horribly reminiscent of a controlling husband, hustling away a wife who has had a few drinks at a party and is now in danger of making a scene, while everyone else stares uncomfortably at their shoes.*

*But not everyone will see it that way. All over the country this morning, there will have been millions of Tory voters harrumphing that frankly she got what was coming to her; that it was her fault for bursting into a private dinner, wilfully causing a security scare when she must have known everyone was on edge. What happened split the room, never mind the country, with some guests reportedly horrified at what they saw as an overreaction while others broke into applause after she was removed.*

Interesting couple of paragraphs
		
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Very interesting Phil. You donâ€™t just lead people out by the elbow, it doesnâ€™t happen, trust me. Whoever wrote that clearly doesnâ€™t have a clue about restraining people or removing them from situations. Thatâ€™s on the same level of misunderstanding as shooting guns out of peopleâ€™s hands instead of aiming at centre body mass to avoid fatalities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's very ironic.  You have been pointing fingers at people with different opinions to yours.   

You are either taking this view to promote your saintimonious image or you are a member of the yogurt hugging easily offended. Both are elements of what's wrong in society.
		
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Once again just like on all the other political threads you start to throw derogatory comments at posters - it happens every single time there is a strong debate on here. People had strong opinions about the incident and the thread was fine until you made it about the posters - you do it all the time. It appears you canâ€™t handle people having a strong opposite opinion to you. 

I didnâ€™t point any fingers at anyone on this thread , Iâ€™m not offended by anything that has happened. I believe a person acted over aggressively towards someone when there was no need - and itâ€™s clear many others think that same way , yet you suggest â€œIâ€™m all thatâ€™s wrong with societyâ€ ?!? Yogurt huggers ?!?! What ever the hell that is. 

What is wrong with society is people showing a lack of acceptance for others , people showing a lack of acceptance for people having a voice and an opinion. Maybe before you start suggesting others are the ills of society you take a good long hard look in the mirror and your own attitude - but then I expect your arrogance will overshadow that


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Very interesting Phil. You donâ€™t just lead people out by the elbow, it doesnâ€™t happen, trust me. Whoever wrote that clearly doesnâ€™t have a clue about restraining people or removing them from situations. Thatâ€™s on the same level of misunderstanding as shooting guns out of peopleâ€™s hands instead of aiming at centre body mass to avoid fatalities.
		
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I agree in regards restraining someone Rich - hence why unless the MP has been trained to do so he also shouldnâ€™t be attempting to restrain someone if anything for fear of being sued or causing harm by holding them in the wrong place 

If that was a policeman or a bodyguard etc who grabbed the women etc then I expect not many would have had a problem - they are trained to judge the situation and also trained to restrain the person in the correct manner relevant to the threat she posed. 

Without being a body language expert when looking at his face the guy seemed angry and snapped - maybe it was with good intentions but I think the actions he carried out just crossed a line that he isnâ€™t trained to deal with and itâ€™s going to cost him his job and maybe worse.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not sure why you need to start pointing fingers once again just because someone has an opinion that differs from yours
		
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And the winner of the "Kettle Pot Black Award" for 2019 on this forum goes to ....


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I agree in regards restraining someone Rich - hence why unless the MP has been trained to do so he also shouldnâ€™t be attempting to restrain someone if anything for fear of being sued or causing harm by holding them in the wrong place

If that was a policeman or a bodyguard etc who grabbed the women etc then I expect not many would have had a problem - they are trained to judge the situation and also trained to restrain the person in the correct manner relevant to the threat she posed.

Without being a body language expert when looking at his face the guy seemed angry and snapped - maybe it was with good intentions but I think the actions he carried out just crossed a line that he isnâ€™t trained to deal with and itâ€™s going to cost him his job and maybe worse.
		
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I get what you're saying about the person doing the restraining should be trained, and do think that amateurs can be dangerous. But that's great if the trained person is right there at the point of confrontation. In this instance that wasn't the case. Security might have been at the back of the room, maybe only 20 feet away. That's not much good when the person you feel is a threat is 3 feet away.

And as you say a policeman is trained to judge a situation. Maybe the MP should have Googled the right answer before getting involved... there wasn't time for security to get from the back of the room, nor did the MP have time to read a manual.

Was it the perfect outcome? That's subjective. He didn't thump her nor wrestle her to the floor. He frogmarched her out AND she was smiling.... kinda says lot that smile doesn't it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I get what you're saying about the person doing the restraining should be trained, and do think that amateurs can be dangerous. But that's great if the trained person is right there at the point of confrontation. In this instance that wasn't the case. Security might have been at the back of the room, maybe only 20 feet away. That's not much good when the person you feel is a threat is 3 feet away.

And as you say a policeman is trained to judge a situation. Maybe the MP should have Googled the right answer before getting involved... there wasn't time for security to get from the back of the room, nor did the MP have time to read a manual.

Was it the perfect outcome? That's subjective. He didn't thump her nor wrestle her to the floor. He frogmarched her out AND she was smiling.... kinda says lot that smile doesn't it.
		
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The perfect outcome is the Minister security detail deal with the situation , they were near the minister - or the person leaves the women to walk past him because letâ€™s be honest here she was posing no threat , none of the ladies in their were posing any threat and the only aggressive incident was the MP and this women , other ladies were asked to leave peacefully with the right level of minimum force. The smile is only relevant if people want to use it but it could mean many things. 

But again itâ€™s not the MPâ€™s responsibility to act the way he did , he isnâ€™t security , he isnâ€™t the police , he wasnâ€™t detailed to act as force , she walked past lots of other people with no incident , just like the other ladies in the room did, why did he feel a â€œthreatâ€ or did he just feel angry about what they were doing and just wanted them out ? 

In his comments afterwards I donâ€™t think I have seen or heard from him that he felt a threat from her ? There is a very thin line between doing the right thing and being the vigilant - I see lots of social media posts from people saying â€œletâ€™s do this and thatâ€ â€œ letâ€™s rise upâ€ etc etc 

Imo he was angry , had a bit to drink and reacted to something that made him angry - there is no suggestion from anyone in the room there was a threat, she was Greenpeace as can be seen from the sash she was wearing , Greenpeace have been peaceful protesters in this country so itâ€™s hard to see where he saw the threat but no one else appeared to in the whole room 

Now if it was a big 6 foot muscle bound man shouted and pointing and waving something at the minister and possibly in a foreign language then you could see a potential threat but then I suspect the MP would have cowered away 

Either way right now this whole thing doesnâ€™t look great - itâ€™s all over media around the world , showing an MP grabbing and being forceful with a harmless women - he has been suspended , police looking into it , his own party chairman and leader condemning it alongside many many others- itâ€™s a very sour event in the political world in the UK that once again makes you want to cover your eyes ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

You did the best thing getting out


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2019)

I've only just seen this and.......
Gatecrasher walks towards a senior politician, holding a bag that could contain anything that could harm others.
Someone forcibly prevents said gatecrasher from getting to the "target", uses sufficient force .
And the problem is..?
And to say that  because we're in the UK and not France or Russia so these things can't happen is unbelievably naive.
This woman could have been after an autograph, she could have had a gun or a bomb.
She could have a supporter of Hammond, she could have been a terrorist on a suicide mission.
What if he'd done nothing and she was "on a mission"...? How did anyone know she was harmless.?
I applaud him.


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## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2019)

Nobody can honestly say how they would react in the same situation. One day you might do the same, one day you might do nothing and another day you might smash a plate over her head. If this was an unknown geezer it would be a none story.

The normal suspects using it as a political stick.


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## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2019)

And now LP suggested it was drink related. You can't make it  up.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imo he was angry , had a bit to drink and reacted to something that made him angry - there is no suggestion from anyone in the room there was a threat,* she was Greenpeace as can be seen from the sash she was wearing *, Greenpeace have been peaceful protesters in this country so itâ€™s hard to see where he saw the threat but no one else appeared to in the whole room
		
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I disagree with most of your post for many reasons but really just want to pick up on this. I believe that the term used to describe this sort of thing is "Monday morning Quarter-backing". It's easy after the event to say "Oh she was Greenpeace" but how does anyone know that at the time? Just because she has a sash that says Greenpeace that's good enough for you? I saw a bloke in the street the other day with a Liverpool number 8 shirt on that said Gerrard on the back. He must've been 5ft 8" and about 17 stone. I certainly didn't think "Oh look he's wearing that shirt he must be Steven Gerrard" and go over and ask him for an autograph.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The perfect outcome is the Minister security detail deal with the situation , they were near the minister - or the person leaves the women to walk past him because letâ€™s be honest here she was posing no threat , none of the ladies in their were posing any threat and the only aggressive incident was the MP and this women , other ladies were asked to leave peacefully with the right level of minimum force. The smile is only relevant if people want to use it but it could mean many things.

But again itâ€™s not the MPâ€™s responsibility to act the way he did , he isnâ€™t security , he isnâ€™t the police , he wasnâ€™t detailed to act as force , she walked past lots of other people with no incident , just like the other ladies in the room did, why did he feel a â€œthreatâ€ or did he just feel angry about what they were doing and just wanted them out ?

In his comments afterwards I donâ€™t think I have seen or heard from him that he felt a threat from her ? There is a very thin line between doing the right thing and being the vigilant - I see lots of social media posts from people saying â€œletâ€™s do this and thatâ€ â€œ letâ€™s rise upâ€ etc etc

Imo he was angry , had a bit to drink and reacted to something that made him angry - there is no suggestion from anyone in the room there was a threat, she was Greenpeace as can be seen from the sash she was wearing , Greenpeace have been peaceful protesters in this country so itâ€™s hard to see where he saw the threat but no one else appeared to in the whole room

Now if it was a big 6 foot muscle bound man shouted and pointing and waving something at the minister and possibly in a foreign language then you could see a potential threat but then I suspect the MP would have cowered away

Either way right now this whole thing doesnâ€™t look great - itâ€™s all over media around the world , showing an MP grabbing and being forceful with a harmless women - he has been suspended , police looking into it , his own party chairman and leader condemning it alongside many many others- itâ€™s a very sour event in the political world in the UK that once again makes you want to cover your eyes ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

You did the best thing getting out
		
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We all know what the perfect outcome should have been. We can all use hindsight with 20/20 vision. I find it incredulous that you feel that it should have been left to the security detail that was xx feet away when the situation was y feet away. "Its not the MP's responsibility" is naive and smacks of the computer says no mentality. Doing nothing on the off chance it was nothing more than noise will in most instances be ok but what about the time it isn't? How do you reconcile a death, a stabbing, an acid attack when someone was close enough to stop it?

20 years ago we all, probably, thought that the Tube bombings would never happen in the UK. That the London Bridge, Borough Market or Manchester Arena bombing would never happen. And I dare say we are all rightly still shocked by the Jo Cox MP killing. You feel the guy saw the red mist, had had a few drinks and overreacted. How can you overreact to a potential Jo Cox repeat? Yes, as things played out it didn't happen, and in 99.99% of instance it probably won't happen.

The guy is damned if he does, and if it was a credible threat, damned if he doesn't. Remember the Deputy Police Commissioner who did nothing when Keith Palmer was tragically killed? He was vilified. Doing nothing, in the current climate, isn't an option.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And now LP suggested it was drink related. You can't make it  up.
		
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He's looking to justify a failed argument by padding it with what might have beens...


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

Interesting articles below. 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ister-over-protester-neck-shove-a4172876.html

https://news.sky.com/story/unsettling-but-mansion-house-was-not-a-violent-protest-11746270

Doesnâ€™t sound like much of a hero to me.


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## robinthehood (Jun 23, 2019)

100 percent a case of excessive fuss.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Interesting articles below.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ister-over-protester-neck-shove-a4172876.html

https://news.sky.com/story/unsettling-but-mansion-house-was-not-a-violent-protest-11746270

Doesnâ€™t sound like much of a hero to me.
		
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I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". 

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women".

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.
		
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Whatâ€™s to question? The reports show that his reaction was disproportionate in comparison to the others. Thereâ€™s only 4 or 5 women in the photos that appear to be protestors. Some of the others in red dresses are hostesses.

Rather than him â€œeliminating a threatâ€ as some have laughably suggested, itâ€™s more likely heâ€™s had a couple of vinos, saw some action and an easy target and thought â€œIâ€™ll have some of thatâ€ in an ill judged attempt at being a hero.

I bet he wouldnâ€™t have done it if it was a bloke.


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## Beezerk (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened.
		
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That's quite a statement lol.
Last time I checked the news absolutely nothing violent happened at this peaceful protest, or at least no violence or threats on the part of the protesters 
Out of interest I asked three different people their views on this over a few beers last night, each one said the MP was heavy handed and in the wrong. I was actually relieved as I thought my moral compass had gone way off  
Good debate though.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women".

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. *The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened*. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.
		
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No we wouldn't, the vast majority would expect anyone to take a reasonable and appropriate action. We certainly would not be blaming anyone sat in that room if this one in a million situation happened.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 23, 2019)

Johnny Mercerâ€™s quote in The Standard article sums it up perfectly;â€If you think this is serious violence you need to recalibrate your sensitivities.â€


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Johnny Mercerâ€™s quote in The Standard article sums it up perfectly;â€If you think this is serious violence you need to recalibrate your sensitivities.â€
		
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I donâ€™t think anyone is calling it â€œserious violenceâ€, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 23, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I donâ€™t think anyone is calling it â€œserious violenceâ€, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.
		
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It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.


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## Beezerk (Jun 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.
		
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Yeah but she could have stabbed him with a butter knife


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.
		
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Is it? I think youâ€™ll always find people who overreact in any situation. Best just to ignore them and think logically. For me, he could have stopped her and had the same result without grabbing her in the manner he did. He tried to be a hero and ended up looking like a div and a bully. Hasnâ€™t done himself any favours.


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## bobmac (Jun 23, 2019)

He stopped her and pushed her back the way she came. She upped the anti by trying to turn back and get passed him so he increased his deterrent by grabbing her right arm with his right hand and her neck, the only part of her body he could hold with his other hand.
In my opinion he used reasonable force


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 23, 2019)

My balanced view having seen the video and listened to the media storm.

1, she shouldnâ€™t have been there, total failure of security at such a high profile event.

2, his reaction was not premeditated, it was a spur of the moment decision to intercept her.

3, yes he used some force, but he didnâ€™t strike her, he grabbed her and frogmarched her out.

4, she could have been armed, impossible to gauge in the short time available .

5, would he have taken the same action if the protester was a bloke?

All in all, if you are a protester gatecrashing such an event, you must expect some physical intervention to keep you out.

If it happened in America there would have been a dozen secret service agents with weapons drawn

Judge Fraggerâ€™s verdict is........

Minor scuffle blown out of proportion by the politically correct


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I donâ€™t think anyone is calling it â€œserious violenceâ€, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.
		
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Maybe not calling it serious violence but definitely being called "violence" and even "horrific".

"Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the police action. â€œViolence against women is endemic in our society and this behaviour is unacceptable. He should consider his position,â€ Mr Khan added".

"Labour's shadow women and equalities secretary Dawn Butler described the incident as "horrific" and said "so much violence does not seem justified".


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## Grant85 (Jun 23, 2019)

I don't think the actions by the MP were sensible at all and in my view don't look good for him. But i think it is marginal to think they would warrant an assault charge or conviction and i think it is fair enough that the protestor has said she isn't making a complaint to the police. She probably expected that kind of treatment from security staff. 

But he shouldn't have done it and I think there is simply no way he would have gotten involved if it had been a male protester. 

I don't think for one second he felt threatened for his own safety or seriously thought the protestor was armed. He was just annoyed at the front of these folk making a protest and disrupting a fancy dinner.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe not calling it serious violence but definitely being called "violence" and even "horrific".

"Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the police action. â€œViolence against women is endemic in our society and this behaviour is unacceptable. He should consider his position,â€ Mr Khan added".

"Labour's shadow women and equalities secretary Dawn Butler described the incident as "horrific" and said "so much violence does not seem justified".
		
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Maybe Khan should consider his position as the number of murders and stabbings in London are out of control. There's lots of politicians on both sides of the argument I'd give time to. Khan is nowhere near one of them.


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 23, 2019)

I just hope she makes a full recovery from injuries sheâ€™ll have suffered,both mentally & physically ðŸ™„

We really do live in a world of over sensitive drama queens.


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe Khan should consider his position as the number of murders and stabbings in London are out of control. There's lots of politicians on both sides of the argument I'd give time to. Khan is nowhere near one of them.
		
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Violent crime is up across the country. Police cuts and cuts to youth services havenâ€™t helped. Canâ€™t blame Khan for them.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 23, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Violent crime is up across the country. Police cuts and cuts to youth services havenâ€™t helped. Canâ€™t blame Khan for them.
		
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As Mayor of London he will have more than a small say in how those resources are used. Yes Blunkett and May are the major causes of the cuts but Khan, or his office, are not without culpability.


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## gmc40 (Jun 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			As Mayor of London he will have more than a small say in how those resources are used. Yes Blunkett and May are the major causes of the cuts but Khan, or his office, are not without culpability.
		
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Iâ€™m sure he has to bear some responsibility as itâ€™s on his watch but a lot of people blame him without looking at the bigger picture. Whatâ€™s happening isnâ€™t unique to London but the way some people comment youâ€™d think it was and that Khan was solely responsible.


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## user2010 (Jun 23, 2019)

Should've put his foot up her backside as he turfed her out the door as well.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Funny how those castigating him tend to be the ones who are anti Tory.  Looks like an excise to vent politcal frustrations rather than address the act.
		
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Or it might be that Tory voters can emphaise more with a middle aged white man with anger issues....


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or it might be that Tory voters can emphaise more with a middle aged white man with anger issues....
		
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Not quite sure what the problem is with being angry when a trespasser interrupts a private function. 

Perhaps the next time youâ€™re having a do for friends you could post it up on here and a few of us could pop in uninvited to see your reaction?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or it might be that Tory voters can emphaise more with a middle aged white man with anger issues....
		
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Maybe but we can always spot a yogurt hugger at large  and what's it to do with being white?  That comment reveals so much about the professionally offended.


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## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or it might be that Tory voters can emphaise more with a middle aged white man with anger issues....
		
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The Momentum argument. If you think he did nothing wrong you have to be a Tory.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

People being labelled pro this anti that , plus other derogatory comments towards posters ?!  Why ? Just because someone has an opinion that means there must be a labelled attached to them ? Can there not be a strong debate from both sides with the need for people to pigeon hole others because they share a different opinion ? Itâ€™s irrelevant what party the person represents - itâ€™s the actions that should be judged.



Blue in Munich said:



			As Mayor of London he will have more than a small say in how those resources are used. Yes Blunkett and May are the major causes of the cuts but Khan, or his office, are not without culpability.
		
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How much power does the Mayor of London actually have ? Always wondered.

Most towns have a mayor but mainly for ceremonies and the council or county council run things in regards fundings etc


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## Pin-seeker (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People being labelled pro this anti that , plus other derogatory comments towards posters ?!  Why ? Just because someone has an opinion that means there must be a labelled attached to them ? Can there not be a strong debate from both sides with the need for people to pigeon hole others because they share a different opinion ? Itâ€™s irrelevant what party the person represents - itâ€™s the actions that should be judged.



How much power does the Mayor of London actually have ? Always wondered.

Most towns have a mayor but mainly for ceremonies and the council or county council run things in regards fundings etc
		
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Ok real life Ned Flanders,donâ€™t get your knickers in a twist ðŸ‘ðŸ»ðŸ‘ðŸ» ðŸ˜‡


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How much power does the Mayor of London actually have ? Always wondered.

Most towns have a mayor but mainly for ceremonies and the council or county council run things in regards fundings etc
		
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Here you go, have at it.........

https://londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/what-mayor-london-and-london-assembly-do


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People being labelled pro this anti that , plus other derogatory comments towards posters ?!  Why ? Just because someone has an opinion that means there must be a labelled attached to them ? Can there not be a strong debate from both sides with the need for people to pigeon hole others because they share a different opinion ? Itâ€™s irrelevant what party the person represents - itâ€™s the actions that should be judged.



How much power does the Mayor of London actually have ? Always wondered.

Most towns have a mayor but mainly for ceremonies and the council or county council run things in regards fundings etc
		
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Well said on the "its irrelevant what party the person represents..." Pity we have to hear the opposite from Hacker on a regular basis. Personally, I'm fed up with seeing the middle aged white man/golf club member/Tory supporter comment. It says a lot about him and his narrow minded stereotyping.

PS, its donkey's years (30-ish) since I voted Tory...

The Mayors of the metropolitan boroughs carry quite a bit of clout. Suggest you YouTube some of his council meetings - very revealing.


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## Kellfire (Jun 23, 2019)

Iâ€™ve seen so many comments akin to â€œLook at the anger on his face. Heâ€™s clearly a wifebeater. His anger came so naturally to him.â€

What the hell...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Well said on the "its irrelevant what party the person represents..." Pity we have to hear the opposite from Hacker on a regular basis. Personally, *I'm fed up with seeing the middle aged white man/golf club member/Tory supporter comment. It says a lot about him and his narrow minded stereotyping.*

PS, its donkey's years (30-ish) since I voted Tory...

The Mayors of the metropolitan boroughs carry quite a bit of clout. Suggest you YouTube some of his council meetings - very revealing.
		
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Thatâ€™s a very fair shout and itâ€™s a â€œstereotypeâ€ that can be used poorly as well - and is typical of the way people are happy to lump people into a pool depending on their opinion etc.

But there have been occasions where there â€œWhite Middle aged golf club memberâ€ ( no idea how anyone can judge a personâ€™s political persuasion when the parties arenâ€™t much different ) etc ideals have been very relevant to a poster or posters where posting an opinion but for me Itâ€™s the people I have met when they post an opinion I know the person they are and where itâ€™s coming from even if I donâ€™t agree with them. Where as the ones i havenâ€™t met on here can only judge by what they post


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Violent crime is up across the country. Police cuts and cuts to youth services havenâ€™t helped. Canâ€™t blame Khan for them.
		
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In the UK yes.... but within one region of the UK it has fallen quite significantly.
That would be the region that did not reduce the number of front line police


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where as the ones i havenâ€™t met on here can only judge by what they post
		
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You know what, I absolutely agree. I have never met you and can only judge you by what you post  ðŸ™„


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the UK yes.... but within one region of the UK it has fallen quite significantly.
That would be the region that did not reduce the number of front line police
		
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Which region ?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which region ?
		
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I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say Scotland. And I'm basing that purely on the fact that it's good news and therefore must be down to the SNP.

EDIT - Although I did just Google the Scottish crime statistics and found this story which suggests my guess might be wrong.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ng-rise-in-number-of-violent-crimes-1-4929947


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say Scotland. And I'm basing that purely on the fact that it's good news and therefore must be down to the SNP.

EDIT - Although I did just Google the Scottish crime statistics and found this story which suggests my guess might be wrong.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ng-rise-in-number-of-violent-crimes-1-4929947

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Interesting. We keep hearing serious crime is lower in scotland due to having more police per capita.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which region ?
		
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I would take a guess at Glasgow. I know they had a knife crime problem a few years ago and the different agencies got together and made a concerted effort to tackle it. They have been very successful apparently.


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			"Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the police action. â€œViolence against women is endemic in our society and* this behaviour is unacceptable*. He should consider his position,â€ Mr Khan added".
		
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I wonder if he has read chapter 4 verse 34 of the Qur'an.

English translation 

_Admonish women who disobey (God's laws), do not sleep with them and beat them. _


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## Kellfire (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			I wonder if he has read chapter 4 verse 34 of the Qur'an.

English translation

_Admonish women who disobey (God's laws), do not sleep with them and beat them. _

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Relevance?


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Relevance?
		
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Sadiq Khan is a Muslim
His holy book is the Qur'an
The Qur'an gives instructions on when it is acceptable to beat your wife
Sadiq Khan says violence against women is unacceptable.

Do you not see the problem?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Sadiq Khan is a Muslim
His holy book is the Qur'an
The Qur'an gives instructions on when it is acceptable to beat your wife
Sadiq Khan says violence against women is unacceptable.

Do you not see the problem?
		
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But he lives in the UK.
So is subject to UK law no matter what his religion is!


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But he lives in the UK.
So is subject to UK law no matter what his religion is!
		
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I agree, he should.


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## Kellfire (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Sadiq Khan is a Muslim
His holy book is the Qur'an
The Qur'an gives instructions on when it is acceptable to beat your wife
Sadiq Khan says violence against women is unacceptable.

Do you not see the problem?
		
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As an ardent hater of religion, I find it incredible that anyone believes but Islam doesnâ€™t hold the monopoly of faith built on fear and hate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Sadiq Khan is a Muslim
His holy book is the Qur'an
The Qur'an gives instructions on when it is acceptable to beat your wife
Sadiq Khan says violence against women is unacceptable.

Do you not see the problem?
		
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We starting to be very generic - just because people are a certain faith doesnâ€™t mean they agree with everything in that faith 

Khan is the guy that was threatened because he voted for same sex marriage 

*Khan is a practising Muslim who observes the fast during Ramadan and regularly attends Al-Muzzammil Mosque in Tooting.Journalist Dave Hill described Khan as "a moderate, socially liberal Muslim".Khan has expressed the view that "too often the people who are 'representing' the Islamic faith aren't representative, they're angry men with beards. And that is not what Islam is about."*

There are no doubt things in the bible that lots of Christians donâ€™t agree with


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would take a guess at Glasgow. I know they had a knife crime problem a few years ago and the different agencies got together and made a concerted effort to tackle it. They have been very successful apparently.
		
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Correct, and the success of the Glasgow operation is being totally ignored by everyone because....it involves joined up thinking and it costs money.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Correct, and the success of the Glasgow operation is being totally ignored by everyone because....it involves joined up thinking and it costs money.
		
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Knife crime in Scotland increased by 14.2%.    Your joined up thinking won't change that.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Knife crime in Scotland increased by 14.2%.    Your joined up thinking won't change that.
		
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Problem here is I donâ€™t belive any statistics that are produced anymore.
Especially if they come out of a politicians mouth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Knife crime in Scotland increased by 14.2%.    Your joined up thinking won't change that.
		
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That is across Scotland. The Glasgow solution is specific to Glasgow. Have a look at it, it is a really interesting project that has been successful it should be celebrated. It shows how one agency alone can not solve this issue, it needs all parties to come together but if they do it can have great benefits. Who'd have thought .


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Correct, and the success of the Glasgow operation is being totally ignored by everyone because....it involves joined up thinking and it costs money.
		
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You know Doon you have some excellent points to make, but your negativity turns people off reading what you say. The success of Glasgow is to be admired and is appreciated by those that want to see an end to knife crime throughout the whole of the UK. It was a point that was so passionately stressed on QT only last Thursday. I can assure you it is not " totally ignored by everyone". ðŸ‘


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We starting to be very generic - just because people are a certain faith doesnâ€™t mean they agree with everything in that faith

There are no doubt things in the bible that lots of Christians donâ€™t agree with
		
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I'm well aware of that, either wise we'd still stone unruly children, still have slaves and not work on the sabbath.


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware of that, either wise we'd still stone unruly children, still have slaves and not work on the sabbath.
		
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3 good reasons to turn Christian then Bob ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Problem here is I donâ€™t belive any statistics that are produced anymore.
		
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I dont believe 102.7% of them


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Problem here is I donâ€™t belive any statistics that are produced anymore.
Especially if they come out of a politicians mouth.
		
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Then you don't believe knife crime has reduced either.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I dont believe 102.7% of them
		
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Thatâ€™s one how can you give 110%.


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			3 good reasons to turn Christian then Bob ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Not on your nelly


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you don't believe knife crime has reduced either.
		
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Not really .
I have come to the conclusion that statistics donâ€™t show anything.
They can be manipulated to suit an agenda.

Example 
No knife crime last week but one stabbing this week so 100% rise.
No stabbing next week is a 100% drop in knife crime.
Both are true and will be used depending on your viewpoint.
Is your glass half empty or half full when itâ€™s got 50% in it?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not really .
I have come to the conclusion that statistics donâ€™t show anything.
They can be manipulated to suit an agenda.
		
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OK, fair comment


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s one how can you give 110%.
		
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By only aiming for 90% but working 10% harder than you intended??


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			By only aiming for 90% but working 10% harder than you intended??
		
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Then you would be giving 99%


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			By only aiming for 90% but working 10% harder than you intended??
		
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The only way to get 110% is if your mate helps you by 10% .


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Then you would be giving 99% 

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1% for tea break ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not a hero, just someone doing the right thing. Ask the French and Russians about how extreme Greenpeace can be.
		
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Or NZ-ers, Greenpeace, or the famiy of Fernando Pereira how extreme (and DUMB) the French 'Intelligence' Agency can be!

And Russia is pretty extreme - to the point of breaking International Law - wrt Greenpeace too - having to pay for its actions! https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2017...-for-greenpeace-arctic-sunrise-seizure-a58433


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware of that, either wise we'd still stone unruly children, still have slaves and not work on the sabbath.
		
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So can the same not be applied to Khan and his thinking of the paragraph you mention from the Quran ?


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## bobmac (Jun 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can the same not be applied to Khan and his thinking of the paragraph you mention from the Quran ?
		
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I'm sure most christians would admit there are many parts of the bible which they disagree with. 
Try getting a muslim to say the same about the qur'an  

And if you leave christianity, your vicar/priest won't be happy. If you leave islam, it's the death penalty.
In other words, muslims are more devout in following their religion.
In my opinion


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would take a guess at Glasgow. I know they had a knife crime problem a few years ago and the different agencies got together and made a concerted effort to tackle it. They have been very successful apparently.
		
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Is the right answer. I remember Doom posting about crime in England around the time of Indy Ref. I posted Glasgow's crime figures to show that, at that time, Glasgow was worse than London for violent crime per head of capita.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know Doon you have some excellent points to make, but your negativity turns people off reading what you say. The success of Glasgow is to be admired and is appreciated by those that want to see an end to knife crime throughout the whole of the UK. It was a point that was so passionately stressed on QT only last Thursday. I can assure you it is not " totally ignored by everyone". ðŸ‘
		
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Please tell me who is not ignoring this.
Even on here we had people 'avin a pop' at the two women advocating following the Glasgow ideas.  
'Blaming every one but themselves' I think was said.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2019)

I am not ignoring Glasgow Doon and a fair few others are not either. Inc the two women on Thursday night. The problem with the two women was. They came across as its society's fault.  It may well be but everyone had a part to play inc parents/ them but they appeared to me to be pointing the fingers away from themselves.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I am not ignoring Glasgow Doon and a fair few others are not either. Inc the two women on Thursday night. The problem with the two women was. They came across as its society's fault.  It may well be but everyone had a part to play inc parents/ them but they appeared to me to be pointing the fingers away from themselves.
		
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I did not see it like that at all.
In my view they were passionate women standing up for the safety of their children.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I did not see it like that at all.
In my view they were passionate women standing up for the safety of their children.
		
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Agreed but we all have a part to play. And recognise where we are getting it right


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			...
*English translation*
_... _

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Quite possibly the problem!

And The New Testament seems to either forgive rape - for a cost! - or require the victim to stoned to death as well as the perpetrator!

Another reason why certain texts - from both/all scriptures - should be occasionally reassessed/revised for 'modern' times!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Quite possibly the problem!

And The New Testament seems to either forgive rape - for a cost! - or require the victim to stoned to death as well as the perpetrator!

Another reason why certain texts - from both/all scriptures - should be occasionally reassessed/revised for 'modern' times!
		
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The new testament reprieved the laws of the old and set new rules based on forgiveness and love for the fellow man.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I did not see it like that at all.
In my view they were passionate women standing up for the safety of their children.
		
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Safety that as parents they are responsible for.  You will find that in many cases they are single parents where the father has left them and where previous political administrations have almost encouraged women to manage without men.  The breakdown of the traditional family unit plays a big part in the way many young people have been raised and their lack of role models.   Those women need to look at themselves and not expect government to hold responsibility.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 24, 2019)

Right letâ€™s take religion out of this discussion completely please

It is totally irrelevant to the thread and serves no purpose.

Thank you


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## Pro Zach (Jun 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right letâ€™s take religion out of this discussion completely please

It is totally irrelevant to the thread and serves no purpose.

Thank you
		
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I know it serves no purpose, but you could have broken it to them more gently than that.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right letâ€™s take religion out of this discussion completely please

It is totally irrelevant to the thread and serves no purpose.

Thank you
		
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Amen to that Fragger. ðŸ‘


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## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Safety that as parents they are responsible for.  You will find that in many cases they are single parents where the father has left them and where previous political administrations have almost encouraged women to manage without men.  The breakdown of the traditional family unit plays a big part in the way many young people have been raised and their lack of role models.   Those women need to look at themselves and not expect government to hold responsibility.
		
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Not quite sure why you appear to be ignoring the victims of violent crime that have grown up as part of a loving family unit...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Not quite sure why you appear to be ignoring the victims of violent crime that have grown up as part of a loving family unit...
		
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It seems like the perpetrators and victims are often members of gangs and involved in drug dealing.  Of course with some knife crime the victims are innocent but I suggest that is not the norm.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like the perpetrators and victims are often members of gangs and involved in drug dealing.  Of course with some knife crime the victims are innocent but I suggest that is not the norm.
		
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Why aren't gang members who've been knifed innocent victims? They are often attacked when out on their own or in a small group. Sometimes, living in a particular area and not being part of the local gang makes an individual a target, and the only way not to be a target is to become a member of the gang.

Unless its a knife fight I'd say any one stabbed is a victim irrespective of whether or not they are a gang member.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like the perpetrators and victims are often members of gangs and involved in drug dealing.  Of course with some knife crime the victims are innocent but I suggest that is not the norm.
		
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Then, I would suggest, society has failed this generation... In not being able to provide them with an alternative to violence and crime...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Then, I would suggest, society has failed this generation... In not being able to provide them with an alternative to violence and crime...
		
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I dont buy that arguement.  Theres lots they can do but they dont want to do it, the majority of young people dont have that problem.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont buy that arguement.  Theres lots they can do but they dont want to do it, the majority of young people dont have that problem.
		
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I am not talking of youth clubs or more pointy hat wearers on our streets... But proper employment opportunities with a future... If all that is on offer is work in the gig economy then, I would suggest, delivering a 'wrap' to be a whole lot more profitable than delivering a pizza ðŸ•...


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## Foxholer (Jun 25, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right letâ€™s take religion out of this discussion completely please

It is totally irrelevant to the thread and serves no purpose.

Thank you
		
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While I'll certainly do so after this, I feel I need to make a correction to my post that mentioned a New Testament..


Foxholer said:



			...
And The *New* Testament seems to either forgive rape - for a cost! - or require the victim to stoned to death as well as the perpetrator!
...
		
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That actually came from the *Old* Testament! The document I quoted where the text was from was wrong - assigning the quote (from Deuteronomy)to Ephesians!
I apologise for the inaccuracy!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I am not talking of youth clubs or more pointy hat wearers on our streets... But proper employment opportunities with a future... If all that is on offer is work in the gig economy then, I would suggest, delivering a 'wrap' to be a whole lot more profitable than delivering a pizza ðŸ•...
		
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But why should this be a particular problem only to a very small minority.  Young people are not drug dealing in massive numbers and getting involved in knife crime. It's more related to certain ethnic communities and as I have suggested a bi product of family breakdown.   Blaming politicians is incorrect IMO, the cause lies nearer to home.   How can you prioritise drug dealing over honest graft, I find that comment unbelievable.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But why should this be a particular problem only to a very small minority.  Young people are not drug dealing in massive numbers and getting involved in knife crime. It's more related to certain ethnic communities and as I have suggested a bi product of family breakdown.   Blaming politicians is incorrect IMO, the cause lies nearer to home.   How can you prioritise drug dealing over honest graft, I find that comment unbelievable.
		
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I am questioning society as a whole not just politicians... We seem more ready to demonise rather provide support, seek solutions...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I am questioning society as a whole not just politicians... We seem more ready to demonise rather provide support, seek solutions...
		
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The general public cant supply solutions, but who can?  I grew up in a time of real austerity where my family and the community around us had very little.  We didn't deal drugs or in general turn to crime, we just accepted where we were and did what we could through honest endeavour to make the best of and improve our lives.  My wife and I raised our three children in a loving family and worked hard to give them the best start in life we could, they never got involved in drugs or knife crime either.    My children like ourselves grew up with parents that did all they could to put them on the right path such that they understood good values in life and had the support to make the best of their lives.  Many of these young people today are missing this start in life, OK you can't blame them for that but who is to blame?   The only blame I can level at Politicians is that in the recent past they have supported the concept that Women do not need Men in a family to raise children, that concept IMO if flawed and has been a big influence in some ethnic communities where drug gang culture and knife/gun crime is more prevalent.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The general public cant supply solutions, but who can?
		
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Society is in a position to help provide solutions... That's why we go to the polls to ensure we have politicians in place who are willing/able to resolve the issues around this... Sadly, we've collectively failed...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Society is in a position to help provide solutions... That's why we go to the polls to ensure we have politicians in place who are willing/able to resolve the issues around this... Sadly, we've collectively failed...
		
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Do you have no comments regarding the rest of my post, that was just the introduction.

I agree weve failed and I have suggested why.


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## gmc40 (Jun 25, 2019)

I thought this thread was about a boozed up politician roughing up a female protestor?


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## Kellfire (Jun 25, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I thought this thread was about a boozed up politician roughing up a female protestor?
		
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I thought conversations naturally move in different directions?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 25, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I thought this thread was about a boozed up politician roughing up a female protestor?
		
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Yes and itâ€™s been hijacked

Back to the original matter please, feel free to start another thread on knife crime and the various ills of society.

The Rev Judge Fragger has spoken, heed his words ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (Jun 25, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes and itâ€™s been hijacked

Back to the original matter please, feel free to start another thread on knife crime and the various ills of society.

The Rev Judge Fragger has spoken, heed his words ðŸ‘
		
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Why the need for such rigid conversation? Itâ€™s clear topics like this will move onto larger themes and thatâ€™s natural and is healthy for debate and discussion.


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## gmc40 (Jun 25, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Why the need for such rigid conversation? Itâ€™s clear topics like this will move onto larger themes and thatâ€™s natural and is healthy for debate and discussion.
		
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Nah, no interest in it. Deviating is fine but if you want to change the topic to the extent it has been changed here start a new thread.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 25, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Why the need for such rigid conversation? Itâ€™s clear topics like this will move onto larger themes and thatâ€™s natural and is healthy for debate and discussion.
		
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Because experience shows that often the OP gets miffed when their thread goes walkabout.

Itâ€™s also in the Mod Handbook to keep threads on track

Also mentioned in the Forum rules bit in OOB.

This thread has already been put back on track once (religious tangent) 

Is that enough reasons or shall I resort to â€œbecause I said soâ€ because that would be very unimaginative of me ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (Jun 25, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Because experience shows that often the OP gets miffed when their thread goes walkabout.

Itâ€™s also in the Mod Handbook to keep threads on track

Also mentioned in the Forum rules bit in OOB.

This thread has already been put back on track once (religious tangent)

Is that enough reasons or shall I resort to â€œbecause I said soâ€ because that would be very unimaginative of me ðŸ‘
		
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Happy to follow the rules, just think itâ€™s worth rethinking those.


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