# how long is too long for a game of golf?



## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

Played at Spey Valley in a sort of society outing on Sunday. as the Lowest handicappers we went out first. There had been a gap in front on us of 40 mins, 9 guys in buggies.

Anyway we caught them up on the 2nd green.... 

then a wait on every shot, for the next 5 and half hours. They were pretty oblivious to us and the rest of the course behind, with some of the back markers walking in from our group.

Spoilt the day for me as its a long course anyway, felt like i'd played 2 rounds when we eventually finished.

I didn't expect to be much less than 4 hours but we took almost 6...

Must be what its like for a lot of you guys down south.


That is the longest round Ive ever played.... and for me thats far too long by 1 and half hours.

Must have been 6 and a half for the group we were behind...... that is too long for anyone to take on a golf course


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2014)

5 hours is my longest, on a corporate course where once a year golfers were never going to pick up even when they reached double figures. Purgatory.

4 1/2 hours is my limit before it really starts affecting my day although in reality once over 4 I start to get twitchy. Absolutely no need for a round to take that long.


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## Slab (Oct 6, 2014)

I'm gonna guess there's more to this than three x 3-balls going out, the first 40 mins before you, the second 30 mins and the third 20 mins and they were late teeing off and lost a ball or two on the first


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## guest100718 (Oct 6, 2014)

anything over 4 hours starts to be a drag. I'd have been telling the group in front to hurry the up.


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## louise_a (Oct 6, 2014)

Whilst I like to get round in under 4 hours, I try to be philosophical and try not to let waiting affect my game. 

If I get frustrated it affects the way I play so whether it waiting or hitting a bad shot I just do my best to shrug it off.


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## bluewolf (Oct 6, 2014)

Depends on the company.. A 2 hour round is too long with some people....


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

Slab said:



			I'm gonna guess there's more to this than three x 3-balls going out, the first 40 mins before you, the second 30 mins and the third 20 mins and they were late teeing off and lost a ball or two on the first 

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Nope, the last group were 40 mins. They were just heading for the tee as we arrived. We then had coffee, got changed and hit some balls on the range, then putted on the practice green right next to the 1st tee.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Depends on the course and the event but, as a general guide, I'm looking to play in about 3.5 hours, don't mind much if it stretches to 4 but much beyond that is too long. 5.5 hours is just wrong.


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## garyinderry (Oct 6, 2014)

We were nearly four hours yesterday for a 4ball around lee park which is a long time.  I have to take a lot of the blame. I hit 1 of 13 fairways. Played a lot of great recovery shots and some smart play around the greens.  I lost the head standing on the 16 and walloped one oob! Blanked that, 3 and 18.  31 points, 3 blanks playing from the rough wasn't a bad score considering. 

We teed off just after half 2 and it felt like it was time for bed coming up 18 with the light fading. :rofl:


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## Val (Oct 6, 2014)

Played an open at Barassie a few years ago 4 hours for 13 holes, think we finished in 5 hours or so but cannot remember as I completely switched off by then. It's an open I wont play in again.

I don't mind any game of golf taking 4 hours plus if you are constantly moving and not waiting.


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## Davey247 (Oct 6, 2014)

I had a 5 hour round last Saturday.  Was awful.  Playing really golf too with 9 pars through 12 then had a bit of a paddy when I realised we'd been on the course for 3 hours already...

On the flip side, my quickest 4 ball was 2h 45min followed by another at 2h 55min when I did the Muscular Dystrophy 4 course challenge.  Had 36 holes at 2 different courses under our belts by 10am!!  Only things we changed was to scrap the rule of furthest away plays first and only looked for balls for 2min maximum.  Worked a treat.


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## garyinderry (Oct 6, 2014)

Hillside for the king of kings day was my longest stretch this year. We were last group out so it was a wait the whole way around. 

Not too bad on links because its rare that your 4ball all knock it down the middle so helping to look for balls passes the time.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

Been there and I feel your pain Patrick.

Golfer's have got to start somewhere but I've always said that I'd prefer that it's not in the group in front of me. :rant:

There's a place for society golf and in general all the warriors @ 18 and above but the question is - The industry loves them but where do you put them? My mate swears by penalty charges @ 2 quid a shot when your over 80 blows and a tenner @ five minute intervals when your taking over 4 hours :thup:


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			My mate swears by penalty charges @ 2 quid a shot when your over 80 blows and a tenner @ five minute intervals when your taking over 4 hours :thup:
		
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I am off 22 but can play 18 holes in 3 hours as part of a two ball, no problem at all. I was stuck behind a 3 ball at my club in the summer in a competition, I was also part of a 3 ball. We were held up the whole way round and one player in particular stood out as the culprit. Clearly he had read a golf magazine too many as his pre shot routine took forever on every shot. Afterwards we found out he had won and played off 8. That day he shot 75 but held us all up. Sooo....he took less shots than me but held me and everyone else up. He also meant that I took over 4 hours but it was not my fault. Nice theory but not as simple as it sounds to enforce fairly.


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## North Mimms (Oct 6, 2014)

Five and three quarter hours on the Celtic Manor 2010 course on Tuesday afternoon.
The light was poor as we hit to the 18th green...I suspect the group behind just got in. Heaven help anyone behind them


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Been there and I feel your pain Patrick.

Golfer's have got to start somewhere but I've always said that I'd prefer that it's not in the group in front of me. :rant:

There's a place for society golf and in general all the warriors @ 18 and above but the question is - The industry loves them but where do you put them? My mate swears by penalty charges @ 2 quid a shot when your over 80 blows and a tenner @ five minute intervals when your taking over 4 hours :thup:
		
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was pretty brutal, but TBH i would have had to dish out a few quid as once i was told it took us almost 3 hours to play the front 9 i lost the will to live and play golf

Did you and Sam ever get a game Sorted at Nairn?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2014)

I remember a near 5 hour round at Dartmouth in an Open meeting not long after it opened.

I stopped playing this year, partly because I did not have the patience to wait for hackers with no idea of etiquette slowing me down.
I think slow play is one of the main reasons golfers are leaving the sport. Golf takes up a whole day now, it did well when it was a half day sport.


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## Canary_Yellow (Oct 6, 2014)

I don't like a round to take more than 4 hours, and over 4.5 is too long. Ideally, I like to get round in 3:45 ish.


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## dufferman (Oct 6, 2014)

Davey247 said:



			I had a 5 hour round last Saturday.  Was awful.  Playing really golf too with 9 pars through 12 then had a bit of a paddy when I realised we'd been on the course for 3 hours already...
		
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I can't understand why seeing the time would mess up your game? Surely the game is about playing the shot, not finishing within an allotted time??

I've often said that if people don't like slow rounds, they shouldn't play at busy times. Nothing worse than someone moaning that the round took more than 4 hours when playing at 9am in the monthly medal... if you want to play at the speed of light, tee off at 7am or wait until the course quietens down at 3pm?


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I remember a near 5 hour round at Dartmouth in an Open meeting not long after it opened.

I stopped playing this year, partly because I did not have the patience to wait for hackers with no idea of etiquette slowing me down.
I think slow play is one of the main reasons golfers are leaving the sport. Golf takes up a whole day now, it did well when it was a half day sport.
		
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TBH, if every round took this long I would soon give up myself.

Only solution at a lot of Places to slow play is to get proper Marshals out on the course and get these types moving. we had words with them, but they were oblivious to the rest of the course.


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## DaveyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Far too many variables for me. 

I got round teeing off at 07:50 on a Wednesday morning in 3 hours
I got round teeing off at 14:00 on a Thursday in 2 and half hours
But I have also gone round in 4 and a half hours the same course when teeing off on a saturday at 10:00

I agree 5 and a half is mental and its not what anybody wants but try not to let it bother me - its made easier when you are in good company.


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## Ian_Bristol (Oct 6, 2014)

Far too long, I think i may have turned round and gone back to the clubhouse for another coffee and headed out later, all it would do for me is ruin my round.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2014)

We were over 5 hours on Friday but it was a Charity Day and from what I saw on the range beforehand a few who barely ever picked up a golf club. Weather was great though and good company plus copious amounts of cake at half way so I wasn't too fussed. We had to wait a number of times but it was the pace of play on the day so lived with it and stopped checking the time. Group behind us though seemed to thank that it was acceptable just to play and not wait so had balls landing near us on fairways and also twice whilst we were putting out. Turned out they were members - nice - won't be playing there again...

If it's the pace of the course any given day then I just suck it up although less keen if it's hosing it down or freezing. If it's one group holding the whole course up though then I get seriously irked and find it hard to switch off when it's finally time to take my shot.


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I can't understand why seeing the time would mess up your game? Surely the game is about playing the shot, not finishing within an allotted time??

I've often said that if people don't like slow rounds, they shouldn't play at busy times. Nothing worse than someone moaning that the round took more than 4 hours when playing at 9am in the monthly medal... if you want to play at the speed of light, tee off at 7am or wait until the course quietens down at 3pm?
		
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but that attitude makes you part of the problem, golf should not take this long.


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## AlexDarling (Oct 6, 2014)

so I assume there was a HUGE gap in front of 9 people on buggies (3x3 balls?) 
was it one set of 3 casuingb the issue or all of them, anyone speak with them and ask to play through?

3 hrs for 9 holes you should have spoken to the pro shop and asked for help as that would back up the rest of the day


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			Group behind us though seemed to thank that it was acceptable just to play and not wait so had balls landing near us on fairways and also twice whilst we were putting out. Turned out they were members - nice - won't be playing there again...
		
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I once played with a neighbour at his course. The course was busy without spaces, ie no point letting someone through as there was nowhere for them to go. The group behind hit through us once and apologised. They then did the same a few holes later. My playing partner walked forward to the ball, turned around so they could see him, stepped on the ball and pressed it into the soft ground whilst never losing eye contact. He was a prison warder so nothing much fazed him. They didn't hit through us again and I have to admit to smiling about it even to this day.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I once played with a neighbour at his course. The course was busy without spaces, ie no point letting someone through as there was nowhere for them to go. The group behind hit through us once and apologised. They then did the same a few holes later. My playing partner walked forward to the ball, turned around so they could see him, stepped on the ball and pressed it into the soft ground whilst never losing eye contact. He was a prison warder so nothing much fazed him. They didn't hit through us again and I have to admit to smiling about it even to this day.
		
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The one that came through us whilst we were putting sat there so tempting to do something with it! I was going to tee it up or kick it in the bunker but instead we turned and gave him a round of applause - very visibly. After that there were no more occasions but also no apology and then same guy barged past us in the pro shop. I recognised him from beforehand as nearly got taken out at knee high on the putting green - he was chipping (of the hosel!) onto it despite the signs...twit...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I remember a near 5 hour round at Dartmouth in an Open meeting not long after it opened.

I stopped playing this year, partly because I did not have the patience to wait for hackers with no idea of etiquette slowing me down.
I think slow play is one of the main reasons golfers are leaving the sport. Golf takes up a whole day now, it did well when it was a half day sport.
		
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It's not just "hackers" as you call them that cause slow play

Pros cause slow play 

Am's acting like Pros cause slow play

Elongated PSR cause slow play whilst people wait for various people to get into think boxes etc 

It's not just high handicappers that show a lack of etiquette in regards slow play


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			TBH, if every round took this long I would soon give up myself.

Only solution at a lot of Places to slow play is to get proper Marshals out on the course and get these types moving. we had words with them, but they were oblivious to the rest of the course.
		
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By types I hope you mean slow players regardless of ability


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

AlexDarling said:



			so I assume there was a HUGE gap in front of 9 people on buggies (3x3 balls?) 
was it one set of 3 casuingb the issue or all of them, anyone speak with them and ask to play through?

3 hrs for 9 holes you should have spoken to the pro shop and asked for help as that would back up the rest of the day
		
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they kept saying they were being held up by guys in front of them, but the way the course is layed out you can only really see the hole you are on, until you get to the 13th green then you can see the next 4 holes.. and once we got there, not a sole in front. 

we had words with them a few times but they were oblivious to anyone else. when standing on the 15th tee guys were cutting across who had had enough and they were making them fully aware of the time they were taking. 

what was needed was a Marshal, the pro can't do much sat back in the club house


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## pokerjoke (Oct 6, 2014)

Im definitely in agreement 5 hours is a very long round.
As someone said theres so many variables and most have been highlighted.
Obviously it also depends what type of format is being played.
In a monthly medal it is going to take longer simply because all shots need
counting and a lot of provisional need taking.
However a Stableford wont take so long if the rules state pick up if you cant score.
So many times ive seen at my course people take 10s and not pick up.
However as also been said if the companys good time goes a lot quicker.
Also if your having a good round as apposed to a bad one time goes quicker.
I would also add that I never attempt to have a round if im in a hurry to get somewhere,
you just know its going to be slow.
I don't think we will ever get rid of slow play its just up to the ones that see it to have
a quiet word to speed things up.
As I mentioned the variables are plentiful.
Our 3 ball on Sunday took 3 hours,first off and home for lunch,nice.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Oct 6, 2014)

Would normally hope for 4 hours inc a 10 minute half way house stop.  Any longer is slooow imo.


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## Ads749r (Oct 6, 2014)

I made the mistake one time of teeing off midday on the hottest day of the year at blue mountain golf course in bracknell with a mate who said he could play golf. I got worried when the lowest lofted club he had was a 5 iron. Any way took 2 hours to play the first 5 holes then we caught everybody up. Took 5 and a 1/2 hours to finish. I wanted to go after 4 as I had sun stroke but he said he was having fun so I stayed. Again the course was just jam packed so no point in letting people play through. On the 13th par 3 we was putting out and the 2 chav lads behind us wearing denim shorts hit there shots on the green nearly hitting me. Put his ball in my bag and his mates ball and then had words on the next tee. For me around the 4 and a bit hour mark is enough if its a slow day. But I can stay out all day playing if I'm having fun.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 6, 2014)

Five hours would normally be too long for me. However charity days etc are usually very slow with mixed abilities of golfers involved so I go out with a mind set it'll be slow and just enjoy the day knowing money is being raised for a good cause. In the OP I'd have been having words with the pro shop after 9 as that behaviour was totally different and unacceptable.


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## mhwgc (Oct 6, 2014)

Depending on the course and competition around 4 hours is about right. If I'm playing in a charity day with lots of guys that don't play much then I'm expecting it to be a slow round and try not to let it worry me, clearly if the weather's good it helps. But there's a balance, clearly charity days are all about raising money but if it's so slow and really poor etiquette then all it succeeds in doing is piss a lot of players off and they won't come back the following year!


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## AlexDarling (Oct 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			they kept saying they were being held up by guys in front of them, but the way the course is layed out you can only really see the hole you are on, until you get to the 13th green then you can see the next 4 holes.. and once we got there, not a sole in front. 

we had words with them a few times but they were oblivious to anyone else. when standing on the 15th tee guys were cutting across who had had enough and they were making them fully aware of the time they were taking. 

*what was needed was a Marshal, the pro can't do much sat back in the club house*

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but I meant he could facilitate a marshall or club official to action what is an obvious problem.


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## dufferman (Oct 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			but that attitude makes you part of the problem, golf should not take this long.
		
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Says who? Show me the rule :thup:

Golf is what you make it. I've been held up on a course playing on my own before of an evening, rather than get irritated and angry and trying to play through 10 groups of 3 and 4 balls, I've learnt to relax, take in the scenery, enjoy the walk 

If there is one group who will not let me play through then I'll get slightly annoyed at the fact there is no-one in front, but sometimes politely asking those people holding you up is the hint they need to let you play through.

Life's too short to make the hobby we play become stressful and un-enjoyable.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2014)

AlexDarling said:



			but I meant he could facilitate a marshall or club official to action what is an obvious problem.
		
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Are marshalls common? I have never seen a marshall on a UK course and I have played a reasonable number of nice courses although admittedly never really high end such as Open venues for example.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

We are not going to solve the problem of slow play in general until something is done about slow play on the pro tours. Problem is that the hackers ape all the endless pre-shot routines of the pros, as seen on TV, for every shot, while still failing to break 100.  Society Days are particularly bad in this respect, because they often include a number of people who rarely play golf.  In my opinion, three-and-a-half hours is plenty long enough to play a round of golf, and this was almost always the case before there was much golf on television.


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## Val (Oct 6, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Says who? Show me the rule :thup:.
		
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Says everyone who get stuck behind a slow group, if it gets tolerated then it will never change. Etiquette is all about staying behind the group in front not just ahead of the group behind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I can't understand why seeing the time would mess up your game? Surely the game is about playing the shot, not finishing within an allotted time??

I've often said that if people don't like slow rounds, they shouldn't play at busy times. Nothing worse than someone moaning that the round took more than 4 hours when playing at 9am in the monthly medal... if you want to play at the speed of light, tee off at 7am or wait until the course quietens down at 3pm?
		
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Just because the course is busy or indeed full does not in itself excuse a long (and hence slow) round.  If you play at a busy time and then pace yourself in expectation of a slow round, then you become part of the problem.


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## dufferman (Oct 6, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Says everyone who get stuck behind a slow group, if it gets tolerated then it will never change. Etiquette is all about staying behind the group in front not just ahead of the group behind.
		
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Staying behind the group ahead doesn't speed things up. 10 groups keeping up with each other doesn't guarantee a 3 1/2 hour round. 

If the course is tough, and the players all of a mid-to-high handicap, then generally the game will be longer. 

I'm just saying that if you let it get to you, then maybe golf isn't the sport for you. It's not like you don't know that golf is sport which is played over a varied period of time.

At the end of the day, who gets more annoyed at slow play? The slow player, who goes along blissfully unaware he or she is causing an upset to a group behind them, or the person who checks their watch and after 3 hours loses their concentration and game because they haven't made it round in the specific allotted time they wanted to go round in?

Not worth getting stressed over.


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## dufferman (Oct 6, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just because the course is busy or indeed full does not in itself excuse a long (and hence slow) round.  If you play at a busy time and then pace yourself in expectation of a slow round, then you become part of the problem.
		
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But a 4 1/2 hour round isn't a problem if you don't set time limits in your head or, as the earlier poster said, get annoyed you've been on the course more than 3 hours.

It's about managing your game as much as it is time. People who let longer games take a toll on their game are foolish, it's only a game after all.

I realise I'm making myself look like a fan of slow rounds, and I'm not, but if everybody learnt to deal with slow rounds better then the whole slow round problem would ease off. It's only a hobby!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			We are not going to solve the problem of slow play in general until something is done about slow play on the pro tours. Problem is that the hackers ape all the endless pre-shot routines of the pros, as seen on TV, for every shot, while still failing to break 100.  Society Days are particularly bad in this respect, because they often include a number of people who rarely play golf.  In my opinion, three-and-a-half hours is plenty long enough to play a round of golf, and this was almost always the case before there was much golf on television.  

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Again it's not just the supposed "hackers" with endless pre shot routines


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## duncan mackie (Oct 6, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just because the course is busy or indeed full does not in itself excuse a long (and hence slow) round.  If you play at a busy time and then pace yourself in expectation of a slow round, then you become part of the problem.
		
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I can see both sides of this but, at the end of the day, you can only play at course speed in such situations - you are part of the problem by being there, not by playing at the course speed.

I might also point out that the rounds at West Hill last Sept, and North Hants last week, were not exactly the 3 - 3.5 hour ones that you might reasonably expect from some of the posts here!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

duncan mackie said:



			I can see both sides of this but, at the end of the day, you can only play at course speed in such situations - you are part of the problem by being there, not by playing at the course speed.

I might also point out that the rounds at West Hill last Sept, and North Hants last week, were not exactly the 3 - 3.5 hour ones that you might reasonably expect from some of the posts here!
		
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Reckon we went around in just under 5 hours


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2014)

I can see both sides here. Slow play can be a problem but then so can expecting to get round in under 3 hours and the expecation of that leads to complaints. My course just never seems to be a fast course to play. Lots of water hazards and lost balls to contend with. I hear lots of complaining about slow play though but those complaining never seem to get that it will always be that way so best get used to it. I hadn't been there long when we played Men v Ladies with us of the whites and men of the reds (great fun). To complicate further it was better ball matchplay but also a prize for the highest scoring pair! Our 11th is a driveable Par 4 for me so for sure for some of the guys off the reds. There was a jam there as it was playing more like a Par 3 and one of the guys with us went on and on and on about how the problem with the club was slow play...he just didn't seem to get that in this particular situation it would be slower than ever...ladies playing the course long, men playing the course short, matchplay and stableford all at the same time. In fact the slow play in our group was the guys debating what club off the reds to take - for us it was simple "driver...driver...driver"!

Watching The Ryder Cup I was amazed how many times a player would take his shot to the green, land on it, and then the camera pan to his opponent who was debating with his caddy long and hard what shot/club etc etc. What was the wind doing...etc etc. Now for me, even in matchplay, you have a pretty damned good idea what shot your about to take and most of the decision is made in good time.

I do play with one high handicapper who watches the pros and for sure picks up their routines - often with no understanding as to why. Stand behind ball with club pointing down target (a la Rose) but weirdly half tucked under arm rather than held out...I asked what she was doing and what her routine for target/alignment was and she didn't really know what I was talking about!


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## Val (Oct 6, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Staying behind the group ahead doesn't speed things up. 10 groups keeping up with each other doesn't guarantee a 3 1/2 hour round. 

If the course is tough, and the players all of a mid-to-high handicap, then generally the game will be longer. 

I'm just saying that if you let it get to you, *then maybe golf isn't the sport for you.* It's not like you don't know that golf is sport which is played over a varied period of time.

At the end of the day, who gets more annoyed at slow play? The slow player, who goes along blissfully unaware he or she is causing an upset to a group behind them, or the person who checks their watch and after 3 hours loses their concentration and game because they haven't made it round in the specific allotted time they wanted to go round in?

Not worth getting stressed over.
		
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And people who can't shoot under 90 then maybe golf isn't for them. 

If the course is taking 5 hours and no one is waiting around then thats the pace but if you need to wait on every shot then thats too slow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2014)

On Saturday my fourball played the front nine of Wentworth West course in the pouring rain (with all the faffing about that that entails) in 2hrs 10mins.  We didn't rush and played at our own pace as no one in front and no-one behind.  Back nine took a little longer as we had to hunt for balls in the tough rough more than we had on the front  - and we ended up taking just under 4 and half hours.  Not bad we thought - given the soaking we got for 13 holes and we did 'stop and admire the view' quite a lot.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again it's not just the supposed "hackers" with endless pre shot routines
		
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True! I did consider using the term 'club golfers', but this would have excluded pay and play golfers. Generally the lower handicap players are quicker because they take less shots, but I do know some exceptions to this rule!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			True! I did consider using the term 'club golfers', but this would have excluded pay and play golfers. Generally the lower handicap players are quicker because they take less shots, but I do know some exceptions to this rule! 

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How about the term - golfers as opposed to suggesting a certain level take a particular amount of time


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How about the term - golfers as opposed to suggesting a certain level take a particular amount of time
		
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Non-professional and non-elite amateur golfers perhaps?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Non-professional and non-elite amateur golfers perhaps? 

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How about - just golfers because your handicap or ability doesnt relate to pace of play


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How about the term - golfers as opposed to suggesting a certain level take a particular amount of time
		
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I'm 100% with you. Hackers are clearly slow but your average high handicapper is not wasting time over every shot visualising and getting into the zone, taking minutes to pick a club, changing their mind etc. Neither do they walk four times around every putt. You may argue if they did then they would be better but that is not entirely true. For me it tends to be the elite or wannabee elite golfer that acts like this. I will regularly take 90+ shots per round but play at a decent speed and will easily keep up with someone shooting 70.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How about - just golfers because your handicap or ability doesnt relate to pace of play
		
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Phil, your defence of hackers is admirable but rather blinkered. On average better players play quicker if only due to taking less shots and spending less time searching for balls. There are obviously exceptions but a clear relationship exists between ability and pace of play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

First off let's call them high handicappers instead of hackers - bit more polite and less insulting towards their ability 

Second they may take more shots but they don't then spend ages over each shot like I have seen from low HC or even mid HC


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			First off let's call them high handicappers instead of hackers - bit more polite and less insulting towards their ability 

Second they may take more shots but they don't then spend ages over each shot like I have seen from low HC or even mid HC
		
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I've seen plenty of..... high handicappers.... take ages over shots too. I'd say there is no correlation between ability and the length of time it takes to play a shot - some fast and slow players at both ends of the spectrum.

I'm not criticising anyone for needing more shots, incidentally, just taking issue with your illogical claim that there's no relationship between ability and how long it takes to play a round.


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## richart (Oct 6, 2014)

One of the biggest causes of slow play, is not being ready to play when it is your turn. Not sure handicap has anything to do with that.

When I 'hack' it round in 90 odd, I can assure everyone I am taking very little time over each shot.:thup:


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			First off let's call them high handicappers instead of hackers - bit more polite and less insulting towards their ability 

Second they may take more shots but they don't then spend ages over each shot like I have seen from low HC or even mid HC
		
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I still come back to slow play on the pro tours setting a bad example.  Keen young players are often particularly slow, because they copy the pre-shot routines of the tour pros, as seen on TV.  Five hour plus rounds seem to be almost the norm for professional tournaments these days, and it is filtering down to club level.  Apart from anything else, just watching golf on TV is becoming boring because of slow play. Tour pros should be given a maximum time to play a shot once they have reached their ball and it's clear to play, with penalty strokes added if they fail to do so. That should speed things up a bit!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

richart said:



			One of the biggest causes of slow play, is not being ready to play when it is your turn. Not sure handicap has anything to do with that.

When I 'hack' it round in 90 odd, I can assure everyone I am taking very little time over each shot.:thup:
		
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Yep -spot on Rich :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've seen plenty of..... high handicappers.... take ages over shots too. I'd say there is no correlation between ability and the length of time it takes to play a shot - some fast and slow players at both ends of the spectrum.

I'm not criticising anyone for needing more shots, incidentally, just taking issue with your illogical claim that there's no relationship between ability and how long it takes to play a round.
		
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Why do pro rounds on tour take over 5 hours to 5 and half hours each - regulary because pros take longer over each shot 

What I was suggesting is that just because soneone is a high HC or indeed mid HC doesnt automatically mean they will take longer to go round than a low HC which has been suggested a number of times by a number of people


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## woody69 (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've seen plenty of..... high handicappers.... take ages over shots too. I'd say there is no correlation between ability and the length of time it takes to play a shot - some fast and slow players at both ends of the spectrum.

I'm not criticising anyone for needing more shots, incidentally, just taking issue with your illogical claim that there's no relationship between ability and how long it takes to play a round.
		
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Well it is logical to assume that a player who takes 130 shots plus to get round will be taking longer than someone that takes 80 shots of course. However if we assume the average was 20 seconds a shot, 50 more shots only adds approximately 15 minutes to the round. I admit the numbers are arbitrary, but hopefully you see the point I am trying to illustrate. 

The thing with slow rounds though is the difference per hole is marginal. It just adds up. A 3.5 hour round equates to just under 12 minutes a hole. 4 hours is just over 13 minutes a hole. 5 hours is approx 16.5 mins a hole. So 4.5 minutes more on average can almost double the time taken to complete a round.


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm 100% with you. Hackers are clearly slow but your average high handicapper is not wasting time over every shot visualising and getting into the zone, taking minutes to pick a club, changing their mind etc. Neither do they walk four times around every putt. You may argue if they did then they would be better but that is not entirely true. For me it tends to be the elite or wannabee elite golfer that acts like this. I will regularly take 90+ shots per round but play at a decent speed and will easily keep up with someone shooting 70.
		
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You just have to watch Jim Furyk on the green, its painful at times!


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## patricks148 (Oct 6, 2014)

Valentino said:



			And people who can't shoot under 90 then maybe golf isn't for them. 

If the course is taking 5 hours and no one is waiting around then thats the pace but if you need to wait on every shot then thats too slow.
		
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Very true Val.

My place not the longest and can be tough with the wind, but a medal round takes no more than 3-3 half hours. the odd occasion its 4 buts that only in a couple of the low handicap opens played when the course at its toughest when the rough its right up.

Spey Valley is a longer course with longer walks between tee, so would expect it to take longer just because of that, but nor almost 2 hours longer.


the main thing to always remember to let faster groups though, the old chestnut about them being held up as well, is usually irrelevant, esp as the guys from Yesterday we often hitting 2 balls each from every tee.

Im not rushing around as Duffer suggests, we walk to our ball two practice swings then hit and repeat, not waiting on every shot helps.


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do pro rounds on tour take over 5 hours to 5 and half hours each - regulary because pros take longer over each shot 

What I was suggesting is that just because soneone is a high HC or indeed mid HC doesnt automatically mean they will take longer to go round than a low HC which has been suggested a number of times by a number of people
		
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and...their not even carrying their own clubs either, lazy slow buggers, the lot of 'em :smirk:


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do pro rounds on tour take over 5 hours to 5 and half hours each - regulary because pros take longer over each shot 

What I was suggesting is that just because soneone is a high HC or indeed mid HC doesnt automatically mean they will take longer to go round than a low HC which has been suggested a number of times by a number of people
		
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And I'm not saying that they will. I'm not even saying that bad golf is the main cause of slow play, but you cannot deny the relationship between the number of shots a player needs to play with how long it takes to play them. 

Put it another way. The same player shooting 70 one day will take less time to play than when they have a stinker and score 90.

Of course, that's all fairly irrelevant and the proper argument to refute it as a cause of slow play is to point out that nobody plays more shots than they have to, everyone is doing their best, striving to keep the score down. Whereas not everyone is trying to play at a "proper" pace....


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do pro rounds on tour take over 5 hours to 5 and half hours each
		
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Because certain players take an absolute age to play each shot. Have you watched Keegan Bradley back off every shot about 5 times before he finally commits himself to hitting it.  Players who don't seem to even start thinking about their shot until it's their turn to play.  Endless discussions with their caddies. Lengthy pre-shot routines and many practice swings. Looking at putts from every angle, etc, etc.

Start adding penalty strokes for slow play and the problem will go away, because it will hit slow players in their wallets!  :mmm:


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## mhwgc (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			And I'm not saying that they will. I'm not even saying that bad golf is the main cause of slow play, but you cannot deny the relationship between the number of shots a player needs to play with how long it takes to play them. 

Put it another way. The same player shooting 70 one day will take less time to play than when they have a stinker and score 90.

*Of course, that's all fairly irrelevant and the proper argument to refute it as a cause of slow play is to point out that nobody plays more shots than they have to, everyone is doing their best, striving to keep the score down. Whereas not everyone is trying to play at a "proper" pace....*

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*

*"Nail on the head"


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## North Mimms (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			And I'm not saying that they will. I'm not even saying that bad golf is the main cause of slow play, but you cannot deny the relationship between the number of shots a player needs to play with how long it takes to play them. 

Put it another way. The same player shooting 70 one day will take less time to play than when they have a stinker and score 90.

*Of course, that's all fairly irrelevant and the proper argument to refute it as a cause of slow play is to point out that nobody plays more shots than they have to, everyone is doing their best, striving to keep the score down. Whereas not everyone is trying to play at a "proper" pace...*.
		
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Nail.
Head.

:clap:


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## JamPal (Oct 6, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Been there and I feel your pain Patrick.

Golfer's have got to start somewhere but I've always said that I'd prefer that it's not in the group in front of me. :rant:

There's a place for society golf and in general all the warriors @ 18 and above but the question is - The industry loves them but where do you put them? My mate swears by penalty charges @ 2 quid a shot when your over 80 blows and a tenner @ five minute intervals when your taking over 4 hours :thup:
		
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I seriously hope I never have to play with some one as pompous as him.

I play off 24 and can get my 90-95 shots in round my home course in around 3hrs. 


I get as annoyed with slow play as anyone. The slowest players at our club tend to either be lower handicappers who play every shot as if it's to win the Ryder cup or total beginners that just need educating a bit.

I think a lot of high handicappers like me tend to be crap on and round the greens rather than tee to green. I know at least half of my handicap is shots dropped with my putter rather than lost balls on the fairways. That doesn't take up much time. It's just frustrating for ME.


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## JamPal (Oct 6, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Nail.
Head.

:clap:
		
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Quite so :cheers:


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## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reckon we went around in just under 5 hours
		
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And by how much was that too slow?

What was the cause?

Did it detract from the enjoyment?


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## duncan mackie (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Phil, your defence of hackers is admirable but rather blinkered. On average better players play quicker if only due to taking less shots and spending less time searching for balls. There are obviously exceptions but a clear relationship exists between ability and pace of play.
		
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ability to hit the ball straight is more relevant than handicap from my experience - over and above any other pace of play aspects!

once such a level of ability exists (and it can be there at handicaps around 24-26 quite easily) it's the other aspects that become the overall influence on the actual time any group takes to get round.

in my experience there is little correlation between ability levels and pace of play once that basic level of competence is established. most of the time is spent on the tee and green and you can play a lot of shots at 10 sec a go relative to even a single putt at 30 sec (which is fast for many people!)


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			And by how much was that too slow
		
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Not any, the day was great



Foxholer said:



			What was the cause?
		
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Strange course, testing course, mixed abilities, relaxed atmosphere as in not being pushed or rushed



Foxholer said:



			Did it detract from the enjoyment?
		
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Without any doubt, NO


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

duncan mackie said:



			ability to hit the ball straight is more relevant than handicap from my experience - over and above any other pace of play aspects!

once such a level of ability exists (and it can be there at handicaps around 24-26 quite easily) it's the other aspects that become the overall influence on the actual time any group takes to get round.

in my experience there is little correlation between ability levels and pace of play once that basic level of competence is established. most of the time is spent on the tee and green and you can play a lot of shots at 10 sec a go relative to even a single putt at 30 sec (which is fast for many people!)
		
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I find the most annoying thing in my observations of playing with single handicappers is picking up their ball on the green when they've putt 2ft short only to align the ball again, and then if they miss that and go past by just a few inches, some still pick the bloody thing up and clean it again   Some are obsessed with this practice and I think on the green (putting) can be the slowest part of any hole being played out!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			I find the most annoying thing in my observations of playing with single handicappers is picking up their ball on the green when they've putt 2ft short only to align the ball again, and then if they miss that and go past by just a few inches, some still pick the bloody thing up and clean it again   Some are obsessed with this practice and I think on the green (putting) can be the slowest part of any hole being played out!
		
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This is why slow play threads here are futile. It's not about low vs high handicaps and you just get people's backs up by daft generalisations like this.


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			I find the most annoying thing in my observations of playing with single handicappers is picking up their ball on the green when they've putt 2ft short only to align the ball again, and then if they miss that and go past by just a few inches, some still pick the bloody thing up and clean it again   Some are obsessed with this practice and I think on the green (putting) can be the slowest part of any hole being played out!
		
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To be fair this isn't just the Low-Boys..it's a fairly common practice at our place amongst all handicaps - drives me insane too!


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			was pretty brutal, but TBH i would have had to dish out a few quid as once i was told it took us almost 3 hours to play the front 9 i lost the will to live and play golf

Did you and Sam ever get a game Sorted at Nairn?
		
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Nope not yet but I'd love to ... Hassle him and I'll make sure that I'm available  :thup:


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			I find the most annoying thing in my observations of playing with single handicappers is picking up their ball on the green when they've putt 2ft short only to align the ball again, and then if they miss that and go past by just a few inches, some still pick the bloody thing up and clean it again   Some are obsessed with this practice and I think on the green (putting) can be the slowest part of any hole being played out!
		
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Again this is another practice which players seem to have copied from the tour pros!


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## wrighty1874 (Oct 6, 2014)

We went out in two 5 balls Fri afternoon, playing best 3 scores first 6 holes, best 4 next 6 and all 5 to count last 6 hoeles on the understanding anyone behind gets waved through immediately. We were waiting from the 8th hole in and nobody got anywhere near us. Maybe we should try a 6 ball next week!! 

Anything over 4 and a 1/4 hours and I'm getting seriously cheesed off.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 6, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reckon we went around in just under 5 hours
		
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But it didn't feel like five hours last week (imo) and that made a difference. Play flowed well and we stopped at the halfway house as well


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## chrisd (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is why slow play threads here are futile. It's not about low vs high handicaps and you just get people's backs up by daft generalisations like this.
		
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Karen's spot on, handicap has little to do with it. Yes, the low handicapper may take longer over shots and putting but, of course they generally take far fewer shots, and in my experience, don't have to look for their ball very often and walk briskly between shots

We had an unusual 41/2 hour round behind 3 higher handicappers and a single figure player who said afterwards to me to shoot him if ever I see him go out with the other 3 ever again as they were so so slow, lost loads of balls and were never able to respond to being chivvied along


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

JamPal said:



			I seriously hope I never have to play with some one as pompous as him.

I play off 24 and can get my 90-95 shots in round my home course in around 3hrs. 


I get as annoyed with slow play as anyone. The slowest players at our club tend to either be lower handicappers who play every shot as if it's to win the Ryder cup or total beginners that just need educating a bit.

I think a lot of high handicappers like me tend to be crap on and round the greens rather than tee to green. I know at least half of my handicap is shots dropped with my putter rather than lost balls on the fairways. That doesn't take up much time. It's just frustrating for ME. 

Click to expand...

JamPal ... You might find this hard to believe but I've played with worse than you, it's a hoot  

If you slow yourself down to 3.5 hours you might be lucky enough to go round in 85 - 90, concentrate and try it  :thup:


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## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			Not any, the day was great



Strange course, testing course, mixed abilities, relaxed atmosphere as in not being pushed or rushed



Without any doubt, NO
		
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So 5 hour rounds can be enjoyable too.

Would the same apply elsewhere? For a Club Medal, or just a knock about, for example?



Hickory_Hacker said:



			JamPal ... You might find this hard to believe but I've played with worse than you, it's a hoot  

If you slow yourself down to 3.5 hours you might be lucky enough to go round in 85 - 90, concentrate and try it  :thup:
		
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I keep repeating my 'horror' story about playing at a relatively prestigious club as a guest and overhearing the response of 2 elderly guys when asked how their round went - 'Excellent! 2 hours 45.' was the reply! Obviously different priorities!


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			This is why slow play threads here are futile. It's not about low vs high handicaps and you just get people's backs up by daft generalisations like this.
		
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Hmm, lots of mentions and finger pointing towards higher handicappers but as soon as an example against low handicappers is put foward, they don't like it 

Slow play has nothing to go with handicaps imo, it was simply time to throw something back. The faffing about and not being ready is across the board.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			Hmm, lots of mentions and finger pointing towards higher handicappers but as soon as an example against low handicappers is put foward, they don't like it 

Slow play has nothing to go with handicaps imo, it was simply time to throw something back. The faffing about and not being ready is across the board.
		
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Well I'd already tried my defence of high handicappers while refusing to gloss over the self-evident fact that more shots = more time.

I've played with some very fast and some very slow players with a whole mix of handicaps. To be honest, I've played with a few who would play a fair bit better if they slowed down a bit, and others that I'll take a packed lunch with me next time I'm drawn with them.......

If we're going to try and discuss it again, let's leave the handicaps out.


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## Smiffy (Oct 6, 2014)

I played in a 36 hole medal at Princes once.
Max handicap was 14, but the vast majority of players were low, single digit golfers.
It was painful.
First round took over 5.5 hours, people were waiting for greens to clear on 400 yard par 4's before they'd tee off!
2nd round started about 3.00, it was 6.30 and we still had 8 holes to play.
I walked off I was that cheesed off


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## wrighty1874 (Oct 6, 2014)

I've played with all levels of golfers and h/c is irrelevant in terms of speed of play. Generally speaking, lady golfers are right up there with the quick players. It's the ones who wait until it's their turn to go, and decide to put their glove on, take practice swings galore, change their mind and go through the whole process again that do my box in.


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## richart (Oct 6, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But it didn't feel like five hours last week (imo) and that made a difference. Play flowed well and we stopped at the halfway house as well
		
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 Totally agree. I didn't check my watch once during the round, and we just kept up with the group in front. I will say that the bacon roll at the halfway hut was superb. The highlight of my round.:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 6, 2014)

richart said:



			Totally agree. I didn't check my watch once during the round, and we just kept up with the group in front. I will say that the bacon roll at the halfway hut was superb. The highlight of my round.:thup:
		
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We had about half a hole gap in front and the same amount behind - waiting about a minute once or twice but it was smooth all day long , the time flew by with the company and the occasion


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## Fish (Oct 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So would the same apply elsewhere? For a Club Medal, or just a knock about, for example?
		
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Not sure all my responses would fall into a home club medal scenario as the course is known but, I do find myself alot of times marching off in front of everyone else rather than ambling down the fairway with not a care in the world!


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## bluewolf (Oct 6, 2014)

Fish said:



			I do find myself alot of times marching off in front of everyone else rather than ambling down the fairway with not a care in the world!
		
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I do the same Robin.. If I think the round is going too slowly, I will happily march ahead and stand by my ball. Even if it's 50-100 yards ahead of my PP's. I still watch them take their shot and keep an eye on the ball..

Note, I will only do this if my ball is substantially to one side of their own shot/line (which it usually is...)


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## 6inchcup (Oct 6, 2014)

am i the only one who thinks golf should be a fun game,when i go to the club i expect to be there for 5 or 6 hours 4 hours or so for the game and the rest for a drink and something to eat,if you have to run round the course to get finished to be somewhere else its not the game for you i think,play 9 holes if you can only spare a couple of hours,but its a leisure sport and as such should be a leisurely stroll not a sprint.
I play in comps and it gets annoying when people keep looking at their watch tutting and saying they have to be somewhere in an hour when your stood on the 12,if you cant spare 5 hours to be on the golf course you have a poor work life balance.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

Foxholer,

*I keep repeating my 'horror' story about playing at a relatively prestigious club as a guest and overhearing the response of 2 elderly guys when asked how their round went - 'Excellent! 2 hours 45.' was the reply! Obviously different priorities!*

That's just nuts, it borders on stupidity that golf's a race. It is what it is but when the speed of play gets to 4 hours (or worse) then someone's responsible


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2014)

This thread basically proves the theory that no golfer is ever to blame for slow play on a golf course.....ever.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This thread basically proves the theory that no golfer is ever to blame for slow play on a golf course.....ever.
		
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Tis true! I've always stressed about not being a slow player and don't **think** I am but often ask HID just to be sure (he doesn't even take practice swings)!


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## Leereed (Oct 6, 2014)

I think a lot of the problem is that people won't play out of turn.we will if one of us is messing about.we will all play our shot then go help look for the lost ball.and we are all ready to take our next shot when required.


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## c1973 (Oct 6, 2014)

I think 4 hours is plenty time for a fourball to play 18 holes, but I don't mind if it takes a little longer (provided no one is being held up). I agree that measuring your enjoyment by how quick you get around is ridiculous, but if I was out there stuck behind a 5 hour group I'd most probably be scunnered.


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## Leereed (Oct 6, 2014)

I also think it's ok if it's slow but keeps going.for me it's when you hit a shot wait 5 minutes hit a shot.you can't get any flow going. I don't think handicap has much to do with it.a lad at old club played off 1 or 2 and he was painful to watch.took forever over every shot.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			am i the only one who thinks golf should be a fun game,when i go to the club i expect to be there for 5 or 6 hours 4 hours or so for the game and the rest for a drink and something to eat,if you have to run round the course to get finished to be somewhere else its not the game for you i think,play 9 holes if you can only spare a couple of hours,but its a leisure sport and as such should be a leisurely stroll not a sprint.
I play in comps and it gets annoying when people keep looking at their watch tutting and saying they have to be somewhere in an hour when your stood on the 12,if you cant spare 5 hours to be on the golf course you have a poor work life balance.
		
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You don't have to sprint to get round in three-and-half-hours. Just be ready to play when it's your turn, don't faff about, and walk briskly between shots. Unfortunately you are usually constrained by the speed of the groups ahead!


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## el marko (Oct 6, 2014)

In my honest opinion i enjoy a round of golf far more when i have no one ahead of me. From past experience the problem has nothing to do with how good of a golfer someone is but how quickly they are to do things. I often see groups of 4 balls take 5-10minutes just to tee off. It shouldn't take longer than 20-30 seconds for each golfer to tee off. And then immediately walk to their balls.

Another thing that infuriates me is when all 4 golfers go to look for a ball BEFORE hitting there own shot. Hit your ball and then go look.


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## wrighty1874 (Oct 6, 2014)

Hear hear. Wave the group through and then look for the ball.



el marko said:



			In my honest opinion i enjoy a round of golf far more when i have no one ahead of me. From past experience the problem has nothing to do with how good of a golfer someone is but how quickly they are to do things. I often see groups of 4 balls take 5-10minutes just to tee off. It shouldn't take longer than 20-30 seconds for each golfer to tee off. And then immediately walk to their balls.

Another thing that infuriates me is when all 4 golfers go to look for a ball BEFORE hitting there own shot. Hit your ball and then go look.
		
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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

el marko said:



			In my honest opinion i enjoy a round of golf far more when i have no one ahead of me. From past experience the problem has nothing to do with how good of a golfer someone is but how quickly they are to do things. I often see groups of 4 balls take 5-10minutes just to tee off. It shouldn't take longer than 20-30 seconds for each golfer to tee off. And then immediately walk to their balls.

Another thing that infuriates me is when all 4 golfers go to look for a ball BEFORE hitting there own shot. Hit your ball and then go look.
		
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Doesn't that rather depend on whether the lost ball is shorter or longer than the other balls? Three or four golfers looking for a lost ball on the way to their balls are more likely to find it quickly than just one golfer, and then they don't have to walk back to search.


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

We play our comps in fourballs and if you get round in under 4 hours you are doing well. 4 - 4 1/4 is the norm. There was one old boy, in his 80's, who thankfully retired last year, who insisted on walking and his rounds took at least 5 hours every week. His 'record' was 5 hours 40 mins in a threeball and he was then advised that he should go out in a buggy as no one wanted to play with him if he walked again.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			We play our comps in fourballs and if you get round in under 4 hours you are doing well. 4 - 4 1/4 is the norm. There was one old boy, in his 80's, who thankfully retired last year, who insisted on walking and his rounds took at least 5 hours every week. His 'record' was 5 hours 40 mins in a threeball and he was then advised that he should go out in a buggy as no one wanted to play with him if he walked again.
		
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Sounds a bit mean and disrespectful to me, so not surprised he retired from the game!  Couldn't you just have paired him up with some other slow players and sent them out at the back of the field? :mmm:


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## Imurg (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Sounds a bit mean and disrespectful to me, so not surprised he retired from the game!  Couldn't you just have paired him up with some other slow players and sent them out at the back of the field? :mmm:
		
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But then they just hold up the course after the competition....

Simples...if you're slow, let others through.


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## Foxholer (Oct 6, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Foxholer,

*I keep repeating my 'horror' story about playing at a relatively prestigious club as a guest and overhearing the response of 2 elderly guys when asked how their round went - 'Excellent! 2 hours 45.' was the reply! Obviously different priorities!*

That's just nuts, it borders on stupidity that golf's a race. It is what it is but when the speed of play gets to 4 hours (or worse) then someone's responsible  

Click to expand...

For the old guys, the exercise - brisk walk -  was their priority. I don' believe they had any real interest in how well they scored. That course is normally a 4:15 course for 4-ball, which is pretty much the standard 'down South'. Standard for many links courses in Scotland is 3:15-3:30, but I'm not really sure why. There's no real difference between length, speed of actual play/walking or the amount of faffing about - and I've experienced both environments.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			For the old guys, the exercise - brisk walk -  was their priority. I don' believe they had any real interest in how well they scored. That course is normally a 4:15 course for 4-ball, which is pretty much the standard 'down South'. Standard for many links courses in Scotland is 3:15-3:30, but I'm not really sure why. There's no real difference between length, speed of actual play/walking or the amount of faffing about - and I've experienced both environments.
		
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Maybe the Scots are too mean to pay for Sky Sports TV, so they don't get corrupted by watching the slow play on the PGA and European Tours!


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			For the old guys, the exercise - brisk walk -  was their priority. I don' believe they had any real interest in how well they scored. That course is normally a 4:15 course for 4-ball, which is pretty much the standard 'down South'. Standard for many links courses in Scotland is 3:15-3:30, but I'm not really sure why. There's no real difference between length, speed of actual play/walking or the amount of faffing about - and I've experienced both environments.
		
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My English buddies that I meet up with are quite slow, in fact I'm being polite because they're a nightmare. A genuine difference is that they guys talk a lot and I mean a lot, all pansy stuff and the last time one even started talking about his wife! In Scotland my mates are not anywhere near as sensitive and talking isn't seen as an exercise, pretty much just golf and get on with it.  :fore:


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Maybe the Scots are too mean to pay for Sky Sports TV, so they don't get corrupted by watching the slow play on the PGA and European Tours!  

Click to expand...

Derek, your a bad man. You could start an argument in an empty house!


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Sounds a bit mean and disrespectful to me, so not surprised he retired from the game!  Couldn't you just have paired him up with some other slow players and sent them out at the back of the field? :mmm:
		
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Most of the other slower players, mainly guys in their 70's but not exclusively, went round in buggies but he preferred to walk. Every week his group had to let numerous other groups through and it slowed the whole field down. It was his choice to walk and he did realise that he was spoiling other peoples enjoyment of the competition. He did go out near the back of the field most weeks but as it is a 9 hole course the first groups out soon caught him up.

He does still play at the club but limits his golf to 9 holes of social golf on Sundays and midweek.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			Derek, your a bad man. You could start an argument in an empty house!  

Click to expand...

My apologies for the racial stereotype, but I couldn't resist it!


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Most of the other slower players, mainly guys in their 70's but not exclusively, went round in buggies but he preferred to walk. Every week his group had to let numerous other groups through and it slowed the whole field down. It was his choice to walk and he did realise that he was spoiling other peoples enjoyment of the competition. He did go out near the back of the field most weeks but as it is a 9 hole course the first groups out soon caught him up.

He does still play at the club but limits his golf to 9 holes of social golf on Sundays and midweek.
		
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Good for him!  My late father and I used to play occasionally with an real old guy in his late 90's. He could only manage 9 holes, but he was still a fairly decent golfer (I believe he had played off scratch in his younger days). He couldn't hit the ball very far, but his short game was deadly!


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## c1973 (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Maybe the Scots are too mean to pay for Sky Sports TV, so they don't get corrupted by watching the slow play on the PGA and European Tours!  

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:rofl:

Aye, that and its too cauld tae be oot ower lang, whit wae the win blawin up wer kilts n whit no tae.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

c1973 said:



			:rofl:

Aye, that and its too cauld tae be oot ower lang, whit wae the win blawin up wer kilts n whit no tae. 

Click to expand...

Sorry, but could you translate that into English please?


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## c1973 (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Sorry, but could you translate that into English please? 

Click to expand...

Certainly dear boy. 

Yes, that and it would be too cold to be outside overly long, what with the wind blowing up our kilts and what have you as well.

That do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2014)

We have all played in slow groups.  The key to keeping the course moving though is to know when and *how* to let a following (faster) group through.  Do it properly and at the correct and an appropriate time and the field will hardly notice any hold up.  And the thinking that says 'no point in letting them through as they can't go anywhere' is also wrong - and part of the knowing 'when' to call through.


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## richart (Oct 6, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the thinking that says 'no point in letting them through as they can't go anywhere' is also wrong - and part of the knowing 'when' to call through.
		
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 Quite right. Don't worry about the group in front, just do what is right by the group behind.


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## el marko (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Doesn't that rather depend on whether the lost ball is shorter or longer than the other balls? Three or four golfers looking for a lost ball on the way to their balls are more likely to find it quickly than just one golfer, and then they don't have to walk back to search.  

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I guess it depends. It seems like common sense is largely lost on the golf course. Ive always found that 2 is enough people to find a ball. At the end of the day if its truly lost it wont be found by 4 golfers anyway.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2014)

delc said:



			Maybe the Scots are too smart to pay for Sky Sports TV, so they don't get corrupted by watching the slow play on the PGA and European Tours!  

Click to expand...

Wee fix for you there delboy


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## DAVEYBOY (Oct 6, 2014)

Playing mainly in the afternoon midweek we tend to get a straight run and usually get round in 3-3.5 hours so when I do get a slow one it does affect my game, we can have a few slow rounds on the weekend and it's not as fun... Two 5 hour rounds certainly did not suit my game in the club champs this season. 

So I'll go for anything over 4 hours for me.


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## delc (Oct 6, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wee fix for you there delboy
		
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In that case I must be pretty *smart* to. I cancelled my Sky subscription years ago, because I was fed up of paying a small fortune to watch hours of talking heads and stupid, repetitive adverts. If I really want to watch golf on Sky I go to my golf club, as they have it.


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## Andy808 (Oct 6, 2014)

When we played in the Lombard qualifier late in July we were on the course for SIX HOURS!!!!!
It wasn't so much the time we were out on the course but the heat with a total lack of trees to take shade under.


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## MadAdey (Oct 7, 2014)

3 hours can be too long and 5 hours can be most enjoyable. If the weather and the golf is good, I have plenty of fluids and some great company then I can quite happily be out therefor 5 hours. Put me with dome miserable golf club chucker 3 hours can feel like a lifetime.


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## Smiffy (Oct 7, 2014)

I played at Coombe Hill the other week-end with Craig, Richart and Paul Nash.
The course was stunning, the weather was superb and the company, (and banter), was brilliant.
It was one of those days where time didn't really matter. 
I don't think I looked at my watch once during the whole round and I felt cheesed off when I realised we  only had a few holes left to play. If you had asked me after the round how long we had been out there, my honest answer would have been "haven't got a clue".
Some days are like that.
There have been plenty of times over the years when I have stepped onto a tee on the back 9 and thought to myself "Thank God there are only 4/5/6 holes left to go".
Some days are like that too.


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## backwoodsman (Oct 7, 2014)

Conjugate the compond verb "to be slow"

I am ok
You (single) are not ready
He/she is slow

We are enjoying ourselves
You (plural) are faffing about
They are a ****** nightmare.

Sound familiar anyone ??


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## AMcC (Oct 7, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Played an open at Barassie a few years ago 4 hours for 13 holes, think we finished in 5 hours or so but cannot remember as I completely switched off by then. It's an open I wont play in again.

I don't mind any game of golf taking 4 hours plus if you are constantly moving and not waiting.
		
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I'm sure I played that day too. Probably many people had entered without realising how tough the course would be off the white tees. Also the club had anticipated this slightly by introducing a "temporary local rule" whereby you hit a provisional if your tee shot ended in the rough, which could be often


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

Valentino said:



			And people who can't shoot under 90 then maybe golf isn't for them. 

Click to expand...

Sometimes when I've hacked it round the course, I agree with you!!


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			am i the only one who thinks golf should be a fun game,when i go to the club i expect to be there for 5 or 6 hours 4 hours or so for the game and the rest for a drink and something to eat,if you have to run round the course to get finished to be somewhere else its not the game for you i think,play 9 holes if you can only spare a couple of hours,but its a leisure sport and as such should be a leisurely stroll not a sprint.
I play in comps and it gets annoying when people keep looking at their watch tutting and saying they have to be somewhere in an hour when your stood on the 12,if you cant spare 5 hours to be on the golf course you have a poor work life balance.
		
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THIS! :clap:


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			THIS! :clap:
		
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All well and good if you are happy to take 5 hours plus, the time its self is not the main issue, that is having to wait for 10 mins on every tee and to play your 2nd shot on every hole.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			THIS! :clap:
		
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I am the perfect example of a car park golfer. rarely do i use the clubhouse for anything other than getting my card or signing in to a comp. It's turn up, play and go home for me. try to keep it to 4 hours max all in!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			All well and good if you are happy to take 5 hours plus, the time its self is not the main issue, that is having to wait for 10 mins on every tee and to play your 2nd shot on every hole.
		
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.......even more so when the group in front is struggling to keep up with the match in front.


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2014)

For me over 4:30 is hard to take and I prefer a 4hr pace for a 4-ball 

Coincidentally I watched the _While We're Young_ series of vids last week (not many other have on youtube so I hope the majority use the USGA site or its a total failure)

They list 6 areas that contribute to slow play:

The golfer
Course design
Policies
Tee time spacing
Course set up
Format

Rightly the golfer is always highlighted as an area that can improve, but tends to receive too much attention proportionally as without the other areas receiving equal attention golfers are helpless to aid pace after a point

i.e if you have 8 minute 1st tee spacing but a hole that takes an average 11 minutes for a group to play (flag in from one group to next) then it will bottleneck every single time (and it may not even be the hole design that's causing it, it could be toilets or half way hut etc that's located nearby. So they reckon rather than increase spacing first find out the cause of the 11minute average to see if it can be easily changed then look at tee spacing

Other obvious things when looking at the list like changing the playing format for that day when there's a large/busy field so that putting out isn't required after missed bogey. Pin positions, length of rough , group sizes etc etc there's plenty to get working on including the behavior of the golfer

Just wonder how many clubs are applying all this to their courses


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I am the perfect example of a car park golfer. rarely do i use the clubhouse for anything other than getting my card or signing in to a comp. It's turn up, play and go home for me. try to keep it to 4 hours max all in!
		
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in my opinion your not a "proper" member,what are you contributing to the running of the club,ok you pay your green fees but thats only a small part of what i call a member,i would never dream of just turning up getting changed in the back of my car and sloping of to the first tee,i treat golf as a social activity and enjoy the banter in the club house,as well as the steak and ale pie and a pint.


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## Qwerty (Oct 7, 2014)

Some like to play quickly some like to drag their heels but I think the main problem is the Golfers who are generally slow just don't realise it and are unable to give themselves a kick up the backside and hurry up when they're holding others up. I'm not the quickest but I know when its time to get a move on.


It wouldn't bother me if it was just casual golf or on a Muni etc, that's just the norm',but I think when you decide to take it to the next level, ie Club golf & regular comps,players need to learn to speed it up when required. Theres far too many who just think this is my speed & and this is how I'm going to play for 18 holes regardless of everyone else behind me.  I've come across this attitude in comps quite often and It seems most of the time the players are blissfully unaware of everyone else on the course.  

I think a lot of players are also far too eager to just 'give up' and let players through which in itself costs time and backs the course up  when a 3 ball in a comp can quite easily recognise the situation and just speed it up for a hole to make up some ground. 

If we're talking casual golf, bounce games etc I'm happy to take as long as it takes so long as the game is moving and the sun is shining. But in Comps some need to learn to give themselves a kick up the backside.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

Tee time spacings is the one thing that can make a huge difference. I would recommend 10 minute gaps
Coupled with holding back players on the first tee until it is their time to play.
How many first tees have the match playing as soon as the golfers in front are only just out of range.


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

Slab said:



			For me over 4:30 is hard to take and I prefer a 4hr pace for a 4-ball 

Coincidentally I watched the _While We're Young_ series of vids last week (not many other have on youtube so I hope the majority use the USGA site or its a total failure)

They list 6 areas that contribute to slow play:

The golfer
Course design
Policies
Tee time spacing
Course set up
Format

Rightly the golfer is always highlighted as an area that can improve, but tends to receive too much attention proportionally as without the other areas receiving equal attention golfers are helpless to aid pace after a point

i.e if you have 8 minute 1st tee spacing but a hole that takes an average 11 minutes for a group to play (flag in from one group to next) then it will bottleneck every single time (and it may not even be the hole design that's causing it, it could be toilets or half way hut etc that's located nearby. So they reckon rather than increase spacing first find out the cause of the 11minute average to see if it can be easily changed then look at tee spacing

Other obvious things when looking at the list like changing the playing format for that day when there's a large/busy field so that putting out isn't required after missed bogey. Pin positions, length of rough , group sizes etc etc there's plenty to get working on including the behavior of the golfer

Just wonder how many clubs are applying all this to their courses
		
Click to expand...

Problem is, other than highlighting the golfer, most of the other factors are down to the club & their money:


The golfer
Course design - costly to change
Policies - this usually comes down to the rules, e.g. game format or what not, so not a lot to change there
Tee time spacing - again, bigger gap = less money for club
Course set up - costly to change
Format - comes back down to the golfer (like you say, pick up after bogey. ut not everyone does).


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tee time spacings is the one thing that can make a huge difference. I would recommend 10 minute gaps
Coupled with holding back players on the first tee until it is their time to play.
How many first tees have the match playing as soon as the golfers in front are only just out of range.
		
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Yeah too often its 'out of range' spacing on 1st tee which is madness

But also no point in a 10 minute spacing on the first if the 2nd hole actually takes 14 minutes for each group to play through. Imagine the bottleneck after just 10 groups have gone out!


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			in my opinion your not a "proper" member,what are you contributing to the running of the club,ok you pay your green fees but thats only a small part of what i call a member,i would never dream of just turning up getting changed in the back of my car and sloping of to the first tee,i treat golf as a social activity and enjoy the banter in the club house,as well as the steak and ale pie and a pint.
		
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Well my 800 PA subs say otherwise.


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## Slab (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Problem is, other than highlighting the golfer, most of the other factors are down to the club & their money:


The golfer
Course design - costly to change not if its just re-directing an access path or making a bunker more playable 
Policies - this usually comes down to the rules, e.g. game format or what not, so not a lot to change there, a much bigger area than just these
Tee time spacing - again, bigger gap = less money for club they're not advocating bigger gaps unless they are currently too short, they want correct gaping
Course set up - costly to change not really, just one area like pin positions need changed regularly so just looking for GK to think about the amount of traffic before selecting one 4 ft from a bunker 
Format - comes back down to the golfer (like you say, pick up after bogey. ut not everyone does).


Click to expand...

Watch the vids or revisit if you've seen them before. The blue bits are just what i recall off the top of my head

Much of it makes complete sense and doesn't need to be a financial cost (& even if it is its an investment that will pay dividends)


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

The rough at out place got really thick and quite long. balls that were only a few feet off the fairway were hard to find resulting in some really long rounds. 5 hours + for a medal.. An extra mower was bought and it had made a difference.


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## AlexDarling (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			in my opinion your not a "proper" member,what are you contributing to the running of the club,ok you pay your green fees but thats only a small part of what i call a member,i would never dream of just turning up getting changed in the back of my car and sloping of to the first tee,i treat golf as a social activity and enjoy the banter in the club house,as well as the steak and ale pie and a pint.
		
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well good for you.

And what about the people that have serious family or work commitments and a round of golf is pretty much the only free time they get once a week, if they are lucky, and pay Â£1479 per annum to do so. Are they not proper members in your eyes?

your attitude to equally paying members is one of the many reasons golf gets a bad rep.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

AlexDarling said:



			well good for you.

And what about the people that have serious family or work commitments and a round of golf is pretty much the only free time they get once a week, if they are lucky, and pay Â£1479 per annum to do so. Are they not proper members in your eyes?

your attitude to equally paying members is one of the many reasons golf gets a bad rep.
		
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Exactly, I am sure it would be lovely to lounge around the bar on a Sunday, but with many other commitments its just not possible.


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## North Mimms (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tee time spacings is the one thing that can make a huge difference. I would recommend 10 minute gaps
Coupled with holding back players on the first tee until it is their time to play.
How many first tees have the match playing as soon as the golfers in front are only just out of range.
		
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Our standard tee spacing is 8 minutes and you are normally waiting for the group ahead to be clear.
For a couple of regional comps, the organisers opted for 10 minute intervals and everthing seemed flow a lot more smoothly. Of course you get fewer people out per hour...


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Exactly, I am sure it would be lovely to lounge around the bar on a Sunday, but with many other commitments its just not possible.
		
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my point about work life balance,if you cant spare 15-20 min to have a coffee with fellow members you have problems,as for payingÂ£1479 to play golf ,so what,i assume all your members pay the same but that is your greens fee,what about the social side to being a member,what would happen if no one used the club house or bar or restaurant?.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			my point about work life balance,if you cant spare 15-20 min to have a coffee with fellow members you have problems,as for payingÂ£1479 to play golf ,so what,i assume all your members pay the same but that is your greens fee,what about the social side to being a member,what would happen if no one used the club house or bar or restaurant?.
		
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Why do i have problems? I have no desire to hang around the clubhouse afterward. rather than what if no one used the bar or clubhouse, you should be more worried if there were no golfers like my self and many others who just want access to a decent course to play golf and very little else.


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## JamesR (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			in my opinion your not a "proper" member,what are you contributing to the running of the club,ok you pay your green fees but thats only a small part of what i call a member,i would never dream of just turning up getting changed in the back of my car and sloping of to the first tee,i treat golf as a social activity and enjoy the banter in the club house,as well as the steak and ale pie and a pint.
		
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I'm both a "proper" & "improper" member then.

Weekends I stick around for a quick pint, week nights I play on my own and am a "carpark golfer".
Best of both worlds.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Why do i have problems? I have no desire to hang around the clubhouse afterward. rather than what if no one used the bar or clubhouse, you should be more worried if there were no golfers like my self and many others who just want access to a decent course to play golf and very little else.
		
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Very good reply, it is the guys who 'hang around' the clubhouses who probably don't have a life [or nice people to go home to]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2014)

JamesR said:



			I'm both a "proper" & "improper" member then.

Weekends I stick around for a quick pint, week nights I play on my own and am a "carpark golfer".
Best of both worlds.
		
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Loads of threads with discussions on carpark members/golfers.  Fun!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good reply, it is the guys who 'hang around' the clubhouses who probably don't have a life [or nice people to go home to]
		
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Very judgemental again !!

Golf is a social game and the banter continues after the round in the bar for a bit 

I will certainly try and have at the very least one drink with my playing partners - believe that is polite


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

It would be interesting to ask our women golfers if the ever experience 5 hour rounds on their competition days.
We used to find that women were much quicker than men in a similar situation on a golf course.


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Why do i have problems? I have no desire to hang around the clubhouse afterward. rather than what if no one used the bar or clubhouse, you should be more worried if there were no golfers like my self and many others who just want access to a decent course to play golf and very little else.
		
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so your not a "proper" member,from your answer you could not care less about the club and only seem to have a selfish attitude,as for who cares if no one used the club house,i think either your green fees would rocket or the owners of the course would sell up and build houses on it,but you would just go somewhere else wouldn't you.
What would you do if they introduced as part of your membership a min spend in the clubhouse(some have) would you move or venture in for a coffee then scarper?on average i spend Â£60-70 a month in the club house more if i go to functions,meet fellow members and enjoy the atmosphere,thats part of being a member as opposed to someone who plays golf there.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			so your not a "proper" member,from your answer you could not care less about the club and only seem to have a selfish attitude,as for who cares if no one used the club house,i think either your green fees would rocket or the owners of the course would sell up and build houses on it,but you would just go somewhere else wouldn't you.
What would you do if they introduced as part of your membership a min spend in the clubhouse(some have) would you move or venture in for a coffee then scarper?on average i spend Â£60-70 a month in the club house more if i go to functions,meet fellow members and enjoy the atmosphere,thats part of being a member as opposed to someone who plays golf there.
		
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To be honest I think your being a bit unfair to golfers that go home after a round.
There are so many factors to take into consideration.
When clubs do their business plans do you not think they take all aspects of peoples
lives into consideration.
Some will spend money like yourself and some wont.
I don't think calling someone selfish is right just because they don't spend money.
Each to there own is what I say.


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

Slab said:



			Watch the vids or revisit if you've seen them before. The blue bits are just what i recall off the top of my head

Much of it makes complete sense and doesn't need to be a financial cost (& even if it is its an investment that will pay dividends)
		
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I can see your point. Small changes should be part of the course maintenance planning anyway I guess (be it through choice or due to fallen trees / diseased grass etc) so I guess a good club would have a budget to make the changes.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			so your not a "proper" member,from your answer you could not care less about the club and only seem to have a selfish attitude,as for who cares if no one used the club house,i think either your green fees would rocket or the owners of the course would sell up and build houses on it,but you would just go somewhere else wouldn't you.
What would you do if they introduced as part of your membership a min spend in the clubhouse(some have) would you move or venture in for a coffee then scarper?on average i spend Â£60-70 a month in the club house more if i go to functions,meet fellow members and enjoy the atmosphere,thats part of being a member as opposed to someone who plays golf there.
		
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I joined a golf club to play golf along with my regular playing partner. Life is costly enough and busy enough without being forced to spend money on things I dont need or want. 
To be honest your attitude stinks and you should think hard before spouting nonsense about being a proper member.


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## richy (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good reply, it is the guys who 'hang around' the clubhouses who probably don't have a life [or nice people to go home to]
		
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Never a truer word spoken!


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest I think your being a bit unfair to golfers that go home after a round.
There are so many factors to take into consideration.
When clubs do their business plans do you not think they take all aspects of peoples
lives into consideration.
Some will spend money like yourself and some wont.
I don't think calling someone selfish is right just because they don't spend money.
Each to there own is what I say.
		
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I think the sentiment here is that if you play golf week in week out in a rush with no spare time for a cuppa or shandy then maybe playing golf isn't the best way to spend your (little) spare time. Everyone has to rush off once or twice a month, be it for family events or plans etc, but turning up, teeing off, expecting to be finished in 3 hours and not hanging around afterwards each week does suggest that you'll not enjoy being held up by a group who will take 4 hours to play.

I think.


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## JamesR (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			so your not a "proper" member,
		
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If he pays his subs he is!


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest I think your being a bit unfair to golfers that go home after a round.
There are so many factors to take into consideration.
When clubs do their business plans do you not think they take all aspects of peoples
lives into consideration.
Some will spend money like yourself and some wont.
I don't think calling someone selfish is right just because they don't spend money.
Each to there own is what I say.
		
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its not about spending money,its about being a part of the club,meeting people and interacting with the social groups that make up a golf club (i am referring to private members clubs)turning up throwing your shoes on in the carpark then going to the tee is not very sociable is it,we do not allow anyone to change in the carpark,or bang their dirty shoes on the floor etc,we have facilities in place and expect members to use them,for everyone's benefit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

Whilst I have zero issue with people who play golf and go home after it is their choice after all - it would be nice to have a quick drink with your FC sometimes it's not possible 

But to call people who do stay up the clubhouse after a round suggesting they have no life or someone nice to go home to is both rude and insulting


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## pokerjoke (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I think the sentiment here is that if you play golf week in week out in a rush with no spare time for a cuppa or shandy then maybe playing golf isn't the best way to spend your (little) spare time. Everyone has to rush off once or twice a month, be it for family events or plans etc, but turning up, teeing off, expecting to be finished in 3 hours and not hanging around afterwards each week does suggest that you'll not enjoy being held up by a group who will take 4 hours to play.

I think.
		
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I think that if you expect to finish in 3 hours your probably a golfer who goes out early or
late.
Anyone who goes out in the pack probably knows that it wont be a 3 hour round.


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			I think the sentiment here is that if you play golf week in week out in a rush with no spare time for a cuppa or shandy then maybe playing golf isn't the best way to spend your (little) spare time. Everyone has to rush off once or twice a month, be it for family events or plans etc, but turning up, teeing off, expecting to be finished in 3 hours and not hanging around afterwards each week does suggest that you'll not enjoy being held up by a group who will take 4 hours to play.

I think.
		
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so what are you suggesting if you don't have 6 hours to spare being stuck behind you on the course, you shouldn't play.

If you enjoy the game, do as you see fit IMO.

Oh and just in case you still havn't got it a game shouldn't take 6 hours or even close.. unless you are on the PGA tour and playing for $1 million or more


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## JamesR (Oct 7, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Oh and just in case you still havn't got it a game shouldn't take 6 hours or even close.. unless you are on the PGA tour and playing for $1 million or more

Click to expand...

...and even then it shouldn't!


No round of golf should take over 4.5 hours in my opinion, and if this is the case then it shouldn't matter what time you tee off as any slower group you catch up with should be letting you through.

4 hours gives a 3 ball ample time to play, look for balls and not rush.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 7, 2014)

At my home course I don't think I have had a round that's taken longer than 4 hours.

I must admit lately I have really been enjoying my golf,especially on forum meets,HFH 
and I can honestly say the company has been so good I couldn't tell you how long each 
round took.
I think sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are to be playing great courses with good
company,amazing scenery,wildlfe etc.
Wether you a person who runs around or takes his time as long as your aware of whats going
on around you and your not holding people up,enjoy it.


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			so what are you suggesting if you don't have 6 hours to spare being stuck behind you on the course, you shouldn't play.

If you enjoy the game, do as you see fit IMO.

Oh and just in case you still havn't got it a game shouldn't take 6 hours or even close.. unless you are on the PGA tour and playing for $1 million or more

Click to expand...

Nowhere did I say a game should take 6 hours. In fact, if you had read the whole thread, you'd see that I'm not a huge fan of long rounds either. I don't think anyone is.

All I'm saying is, if you think that golf is a game that should take 3 hours from parking in the car park to leaving the car park, you're not going to enjoy it as much as say, someone who doesn't get irate over timings. Enjoy the scenery. Talk to your PP about life. Breathe in the fresh air. Relax :thup:


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			Nowhere did I say a game should take 6 hours. In fact, if you had read the whole thread, you'd see that I'm not a huge fan of long rounds either. I don't think anyone is.

All I'm saying is, if you think that golf is a game that should take 3 hours from parking in the car park to leaving the car park, you're not going to enjoy it as much as say, someone who doesn't get irate over timings. Enjoy the scenery. Talk to your PP about life. Breathe in the fresh air. Relax :thup:
		
Click to expand...


Likewise ,where anyone say they want to get from parkingthe car to going home in 3 hours?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whilst I have zero issue with people who play golf and go home after it is their choice after all - it would be nice to have a quick drink with your FC sometimes it's not possible 

*But to call people who do stay up the clubhouse after a round suggesting they have no life or someone nice to go home to is both rude and insulting*

Click to expand...

D'you know what LP - I think DfT comment was tongue in cheek!


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Likewise ,where anyone say they want to get from parkingthe car to going home in 3 hours?
		
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guest100718 said:



			I am the perfect example of a car park golfer. rarely do i use the clubhouse for anything other than getting my card or signing in to a comp. It's turn up, play and go home for me. try to keep it to 4 hours max all in!
		
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So maybe 3 hours was a little exaggeration


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

dufferman said:



			So maybe 3 hours was a little exaggeration

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never let the truth get in teh way....


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I joined a golf club to play golf along with my regular playing partner. Life is costly enough and busy enough without being forced to spend money on things I dont need or want. 
To be honest your attitude stinks and you should think hard before spouting nonsense about being a proper member.
		
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so you joined to play with your mate,fine,so you and your mate never spend any money in the pro shop or go for a drink afterwards in the club house,you never have a few drinks after a comp with your pp,you never go to club dinners and functions or take your wives/girlfriends/boyfriends to presentation nights because thats what members do at my club and i think this happens at most clubs,members make a club and in my opinion just turning up with your mate never going into the clubhouse playing a round then going home isnt a proper member just someone after cheap golf.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			so you joined to play with your mate,fine,so you and your mate never spend any money in the pro shop or go for a drink afterwards in the club house,you never have a few drinks after a comp with your pp,you never go to club dinners and functions or take your wives/girlfriends/boyfriends to presentation nights because thats what members do at my club and i think this happens at most clubs,members make a club and in my opinion just turning up with your mate never going into the clubhouse playing a round then going home isnt a proper member just someone after cheap golf.
		
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I do buy the odd snickers bar


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## dufferman (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			never let the truth get in teh way....
		
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This forum isn't as fun with the truth thrown in...


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			I do buy the odd snickers bar 

Click to expand...

why did you join that club as opposed to another one.MARATHON they are called MARATHONS hate it when they change the name to go all corporate,BRING BACK SPANGLES.


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## JamesR (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			...members make a club and in my opinion just turning up with your mate never going into the clubhouse playing a round then going home isnt a proper member just someone after cheap golf.
		
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Membership fees/subscriptions make a club, the members themselves just populate it (for better or worse).

As for cheap golf, you can pay an awful lot to be a member of some clubs and use it like Paddy does.


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			why did you join that club as opposed to another one.MARATHON they are called MARATHONS hate it when they change the name to go all corporate,BRING BACK SPANGLES.
		
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it hasnt been marathon for almost 25 years.....


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## North Mimms (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would be interesting to *ask our women golfers if the ever experience 5 hour rounds *on their competition days.
We used to find that women were much quicker than men in a similar situation on a golf course.
		
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No we don't, cos we have to hurry home , put a pinny on and make our hubby's tea ! ( Â©Northwood CG)


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

JamesR said:



			Membership fees/subscriptions make a club, the members themselves just populate it (for better or worse).

As for cheap golf, you can pay an awful lot to be a member of some clubs and use it like Paddy does.
		
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most if not all memberships work out to be cheap golf if used correctly,if your only playing a few rounds a month then no,but based on Â£20-Â£25 per round as a visitor,and most members will play 5 or 6 rounds a month min some play that weekly(very in my case)take the average membership of Â£1000 in England it works out as cheap golf,dont forget the benefits of the facilities at the club as well,the more you use the club the less each round has cost you.


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## 6inchcup (Oct 7, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			No we don't, cos we have to hurry home , put a pinny on and make our hubby's tea ! ( Â©Northwood CG)
		
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is the correct answer.


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## richart (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Very judgemental again !!

Golf is a social game and the banter continues after the round in the bar for a bit 

I will certainly try and have at the very least one drink with my playing partners - believe that is polite
		
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 How long does a quick drink with your partners take? I could do that in 10 minutes and still have time to bore them rigid. I do find it strange that someone can take  probably 4 hours for a round without a problem, but not find a few more minutes to be sociable. Ok there may be the odd time when you do really need to rush off, but everytime you play ? 

We do have a few at my club that have time for a drink if I am buying, but then strangely find a sudden reason to dash off when it is their turn. They only catch me out the once though.


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## richy (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whilst I have zero issue with people who play golf and go home after it is their choice after all - it would be nice to have a quick drink with your FC sometimes it's not possible 

But to call people who do stay up the clubhouse after a round suggesting they have no life or someone nice to go home to is both rude and insulting
		
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So is saying that people who shoot straight off aren't proper members

(I know that it wasn't you who said that)


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

richy said:



			So is saying that people who shoot straight off aren't proper members

(I know that it wasn't you who said that)
		
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Yes it's also wrong to say that but doesn't mean the automatic reply is to insult people who do stay for a drink


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

richart said:



			How long does a quick drink with your partners take? I could do that in 10 minutes and still have time to bore them rigid. I do find it strange that someone can take  probably 4 hours for a round without a problem, but not find a few more minutes to be sociable. Ok there may be the odd time when you do really need to rush off, but everytime you play ? 

We do have a few at my club that have time for a drink if I am buying, but then strangely find a sudden reason to dash off when it is their turn. They only catch me out the once though.

Click to expand...

Having the chat in the bar after is all part of the idea of playing golf for me

Afterwards is where you hear the stories and the laughter and jokes - last weekend was the perfect example


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## richy (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes it's also wrong to say that but doesn't mean the automatic reply is to insult people who do stay for a drink
		
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Oh yes it is


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 7, 2014)

Not a fan of car park golfers and would rather members took the chance to socialise and spend their cash in the bar afterwards BUT I also understand many have family and other committments and after a slow round would rather get away and do whatever they have to do. Doesn't make them any less of a member for it. If they could pop in once in a while, every little helps as they say towards bottom line profits but again, if they choose not to it's no biggie. As long as they are good company on the course then what else do they have to do or be?


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## pokerjoke (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Having the chat in the bar after is all part of the idea of playing golf for me

Afterwards is where you hear the stories and the laughter and jokes - last weekend was the perfect example
		
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Yes and all about your 90 strokes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2014)

if someone wants to be a carpark member then that's up to them - not ideal IMO as all clubs count on additional income from members above and beyond the subs - and if we all took the carpark golf approach club would struggle and probably go under unless subs were increased for all. And so the truth of it is that carpark members have their golf subsidised by members who use the clubhouse.  

The other aspect that carpark members risk losing out on is any legitimacy or recognition of their views by other members on the course or management of the club and it's facilities.  By not using the club other than the course - you effectively disenfranchise yourself from any decision making.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Yes and all about your 90 strokes

Click to expand...


And my wallet seeming to have an extra Â£20 in it


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 7, 2014)

On weekdays I have 6 hours between dropping my sons at school and picking them up again. It's a 45 minute drive to the golf club which leaves me 4 + 1/2 hours to get round. Apart from the odd occasion I don't play a lot at the weekends as that is family time. If I get round in 4 hours I have time to stop for a drink. If the round is 4 + 1/2 hours I have to get straight in the car and leave. That doesn't make me any less of a member. 

What's next comparing who spends what in the pro shop to determine what a "proper" member is.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 7, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And my wallet seeming to have an extra Â£20 in it  

Click to expand...

Im setting you up for the big one


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## richart (Oct 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			if someone wants to be a carpark member then that's up to them - not ideal IMO as all clubs count on additional income from members above and beyond the subs - and if we all took the carpark golf approach club would struggle and probably go under unless subs were increased for all. And so the truth of it is that carpark members have their golf subsidised by members who use the clubhouse.  

The other aspect that carpark members risk losing out on is any legitimacy or recognition of their views by other members on the course or management of the club and it's facilities.  By not using the club other than the course - you effectively disenfranchise yourself from any decision making.
		
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We introduced a bar levy this year and if you don't spend it by the end of the membership year you lose it. I understand there about 100 members who haven't spent a penny with the membership year ending this month. I wonder if there will be loads of members suddenly finding time for a drink, or just a nice lump sum going into the Club's coffers ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Im setting you up for the big one

Click to expand...

Look forward to it mate :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 7, 2014)

richart said:



			We introduced a bar levy this year and if you don't spend it by the end of the membership year you lose it. I understand there about 100 members who haven't spent a penny with the membership year ending this month. I wonder if there will be loads of members suddenly finding time for a drink, or just a nice lump sum going into the Club's coffers ?
		
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We have been doing this for the last 5 years 

What ever is left over from bar Levys not spent is used to pay the yearly Sky Subscription


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2014)

I thought that most members clubs had a 'use it or lose it' bar and food levy added to the annual subs (I was sure Blackmoor did as my mate had a members discount card that I assumed was also a levy card).  Anyway - my Â£100 seems to disappear very quickly.  We still need members to spend more than the one-off levy at renewal though.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 7, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would be interesting to ask our women golfers if the ever experience 5 hour rounds on their competition days.
We used to find that women were much quicker than men in a similar situation on a golf course.
		
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Not had a 5 hour round but we do tend to play in 3's not 4's which helps...


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## Fish (Oct 7, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			so you joined to play with your mate,fine,so you and your mate never spend any money in the pro shop or go for a drink afterwards in the club house,you never have a few drinks after a comp with your pp,you never go to club dinners and functions or take your wives/girlfriends/boyfriends to presentation nights because thats what members do at my club and i think this happens at most clubs,members make a club and in my opinion just turning up with your mate never going into the clubhouse playing a round then going home isnt a proper member just someone after cheap golf.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say I find some of your posts and "reasoning's" for them quite rude, once you pay your fee's, of which any decent secretary will have built his business model on that's it, you are not obliged to do or spend or participate in any other way, that's the facts of the matter, your opinion of what a "proper member" is and what a "true member" is as far as figures on the P&L are 2 different things.  I see a lot of waste lost within the bar/restaurant areas, excessive staff for those areas, over priced drinks & foods so not attracting "members" to buy and stay, chefs not doing anything for hours, and the list could go on,  the main core business is the *golf course*, I fully understand that profits from other areas of the club can help to support that, but, the members fee's and projected visitor green fee's should reflect that alone and anything else is a Brucie bonus. If that meant cutting back on bar times, food availability and staff, then so be it. I've seen the same old crowd attending some functions and I applaud them, obviously they have the club as their main circle of friends, but, that should not be forced upon or expected of the other members who simply have chosen the club because of the golf course, they have no other obligation to contribute other than their annual fee's.

And to mention not spending in the Pro shop does nothing for the club, 99% of them are on a retainer so their revenue is their own, so your not investing in the club by spending in the Pro shop either!

Maybe Paddy should leave that club by your reckoning as he's not a "proper member"  and then you can explain to his secretary how to claw back that revenue?


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## richart (Oct 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought that most members clubs had a 'use it or lose it' bar and food levy added to the annual subs (I was sure Blackmoor did as my mate had a members discount card that I assumed was also a levy card).  Anyway - my Â£100 seems to disappear very quickly.  We still need members to spend more than the one-off levy at renewal though.
		
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  We have a discount card but only this year was it compulsary to put Â£50 on it. Â£75 next membership year, and Â£100 thereafter. On the Club's website you can see how much you have spent over the year, which is rather frightening.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm a high handiacpper, can get round my local course in 2 hours 20 on my own, don't go for a drink after if I'm on my own, do if I play a round with mates and sometimes untuck my shirt.  What does that make me?


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## North Mimms (Oct 7, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm a high handiacpper, can get round my local course in 2 hours 20 on my own, don't go for a drink after if I'm on my own, do if I play a round with mates and sometimes untuck my shirt.  What does that make me?
		
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Scruffy Johnny No-Mates?:ears:


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## Fish (Oct 7, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm a high handiacpper, can get round my local course in 2 hours 20 on my own, don't go for a drink after if I'm on my own, do if I play a round with mates and sometimes untuck my shirt.  What does that make me?
		
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North Mimms said:



			Scruffy Johnny No-Mates?:ears:
		
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:thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm a high handiacpper, can get round my local course in 2 hours 20 on my own, don't go for a drink after if I'm on my own, do if I play a round with mates and sometimes untuck my shirt.  What does that make me?
		
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Well you are definitely not one of us


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## chrisd (Oct 7, 2014)

Fish said:



			I have to say I find some of your posts and "reasoning's" for them quite rude, once you pay your fee's, of which any decent secretary will have built his business model on that's it, you are not obliged to do or spend or participate in any other way, that's the facts of the matter, your opinion of what a "proper member" is and what a "true member" is as far as figures on the P&L are 2 different things.  I see a lot of waste lost within the bar/restaurant areas, excessive staff for those areas, over priced drinks & foods so not attracting "members" to buy and stay, chefs not doing anything for hours, and the list could go on,  the main core business is the *golf course*, I fully understand that profits from other areas of the club can help to support that, but, the members fee's and projected visitor green fee's should reflect that alone and anything else is a Brucie bonus. If that meant cutting back on bar times, food availability and staff, then so be it. I've seen the same old crowd attending some functions and I applaud them, obviously they have the club as their main circle of friends, but, that should not be forced upon or expected of the other members who simply have chosen the club because of the golf course, they have no other obligation to contribute other than their annual fee's.

And to mention not spending in the Pro shop does nothing for the club, 99% of them are on a retainer so their revenue is their own, so your not investing in the club by spending in the Pro shop either!

Maybe Paddy should leave that club by your reckoning as he's not a "proper member"  and then you can explain to his secretary how to claw back that revenue?
		
Click to expand...

To add to the theme of Fish's post

We, a few golfers at my club, had a chat recently the theme of which was

As biggest percentage of the club overheads away from course maintenance were wages, largely of bar and catering staff, if clubs didn't have lavish bars open all hours and catering facilities to do a full Sunday roast for 2 golfers at 4.55 pm on a Tuesday then the need to bring in extra revenue so as to afford the facilities these costs would be negated. So, if clubs put their money mostly into the course and reined back on the facilities, do away with dance facilities or restaurant for 100 people, maybe just have the golf equivalent of a school common room where a tea, coffee or can of beer could be had, the question is, would the golf be affected and would the need to raise so much money over and above the subscription be necessary?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2014)

pokerjoke said:



			Yes and all about your 90 strokes

Click to expand...

Each one individually explained, goodness is that the time.:lol:


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## Fish (Oct 7, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To add to the theme of Fish's post

We, a few golfers at my club, had a chat recently the theme of which was

As biggest percentage of the club overheads away from course maintenance were wages, largely of bar and catering staff, if clubs didn't have lavish bars open all hours and catering facilities to do a full Sunday roast for 2 golfers at 4.55 pm on a Tuesday then the need to bring in extra revenue so as to afford the facilities these costs would be negated. So, if clubs put their money mostly into the course and reined back on the facilities, do away with dance facilities or restaurant for 100 people, maybe just have the golf equivalent of a school common room where a tea, coffee or can of beer could be had, the question is, would the golf be affected and would the need to raise so much money over and above the subscription be necessary?
		
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It doesn't have to be as severe as that but I get your drift Chris because, my club has an "honesty bar", we have no staff costs, no steward living for free in-house, no chef sitting around all day in case someone chooses to have something, we serve guests and ourselves, we have a lady come in at certain times when comps are on and hot meals are available then, outside of those times I can go into the kitchen and put a lasagne in the microwave, do some chips, make myself a sandwich or anything else I fancy from the many fridges/freezers and leave the money in a dish on her table.  It works just great :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 7, 2014)

chrisd said:



			To add to the theme of Fish's post

We, a few golfers at my club, had a chat recently the theme of which was

As biggest percentage of the club overheads away from course maintenance were wages, largely of bar and catering staff, if clubs didn't have lavish bars open all hours and catering facilities to do a full Sunday roast for 2 golfers at 4.55 pm on a Tuesday then the need to bring in extra revenue so as to afford the facilities these costs would be negated. So, if clubs put their money mostly into the course and reined back on the facilities, do away with dance facilities or restaurant for 100 people, maybe just have the golf equivalent of a school common room where a tea, coffee or can of beer could be had, the question is, would the golf be affected and would the need to raise so much money over and above the subscription be necessary?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a problem with having additional facilities as they can be attractive to a lot of people.  Indeed there can be big profit margins in food/drink. But they have to be run properly and be attractive to make people want to spend their time/money there.  

I agree having a 100 seat restaurant to cater for 2 golfers every now and then is pointless and you'd be much better spending the money on better greens.  But having a 100 seater restaurant that is fairly vibrant should bring in much needed revenue and make the whole place more 'alive' if that makes sense.


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## bluewolf (Oct 7, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			if someone wants to be a carpark member then that's up to them - not ideal IMO as all clubs count on additional income from members above and beyond the subs - and if we all took the carpark golf approach club would struggle and probably go under unless subs were increased for all. And so the truth of it is that carpark members have their golf subsidised by members who use the clubhouse.
		
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Now friend, I believe we've had this discussion before .. But I will make the point one last time..

If there was a requirement to spend a set amount (lets say Â£100) in the Clubhouse each year, then I would have to reconsider my membership of said club. I may be forced to leave in fact...

Therefore, considering the fact that my club membership is not full, my yearly subscription could be considered to be subsidizing the subscriptions of all those members who prefer to spend time in the Clubhouse.. Now I'm not asking for anyones thanks for subsidizing their membership. I would however like not to be patronised and insulted by being referred to as effectively a second class member of the Club....

Oh, and I've probably spent more this year than in any of the previous 3 years.. Even though I didn't go anywhere near the clubhouse between May and October..


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## chrisd (Oct 7, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I don't think there is a problem with having additional facilities as they can be attractive to a lot of people.  Indeed there can be big profit margins in food/drink. But they have to be run properly and be attractive to make people want to spend their time/money there.  

I agree having a 100 seat restaurant to cater for 2 golfers every now and then is pointless and you'd be much better spending the money on better greens.  But having a 100 seater restaurant that is fairly vibrant should bring in much needed revenue and make the whole place more 'alive' if that makes sense.
		
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I agree, but, I think a lot of clubs don't do much more than break even with their bar/catering and if you take into account the extra capital costs in the first build the question was whether a golf club wax better off just providing the basic facilities and putting their money mostly into the course.

I think for a lot of clubs Fish's is possibly a good model!


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## Smiffy (Oct 7, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm a high handiacpper, can get round my local course in 2 hours 20 on my own, don't go for a drink after if I'm on my own, do if I play a round with mates and sometimes untuck my shirt.  What does that make me?
		
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A prize knob


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## delc (Oct 7, 2014)

As a 3-ball we got round our 18 hole, 6400 yard course in 3 hours 50 minutes today, with a few searches for balls in the rough (my partners, not me) and a 5 minute break at the clubhouse after 9 holes. We were also held up a few times by green keepers mowing the fairways on gang mowers. We didn't hurry and did not hold up the following group.  Our handicaps were 12 (me), 22 and 25.  Shows that it doesn't have to take 5 hours to get round! We tidied up bunkers, replaced divots and repaired pitch marks on the greens. 

What is important to me is not so much the absolute time it takes to get around a course, it's not having to wait on every tee and after every shot before playing the next one.  I get cold, tired and stiff if I have to, especially in the Winter!


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## Slab (Oct 8, 2014)

delc said:



			As a 3-ball we got round our 18 hole, 6400 yard course in 3 hours 50 minutes today, with a few searches for balls in the rough (my partners, not me) and a 5 minute break at the clubhouse after 9 holes. We were also held up a few times by green keepers mowing the fairways on gang mowers. We didn't hurry and did not hold up the following group.  Our handicaps were 12 (me), 22 and 25.  Shows that it doesn't have to take 5 hours to get round! We tidied up bunkers, replaced divots and repaired pitch marks on the greens. 

What is important to me is not so much the absolute time it takes to get around a course, it's not having to wait on every tee and after every shot before playing the next one.  I get cold, tired and stiff if I have to, especially in the Winter! 

Click to expand...

I think everyone would agree that it doesn't have to take 5 hours, however sometimes it does. Hope you enjoyed your game although the pace for a 3-ball on a Monday would typically not compare to one of the longer rounds 

Any idea how your time/pace yesterday would compare had it been a Saturday with 80-100 players joining you?


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## Fish (Oct 8, 2014)

Slab said:



			I think everyone would agree that it doesn't have to take 5 hours, however sometimes it does. Hope you enjoyed your game although the pace for a 3-ball on a Monday would typically not compare to one of the longer rounds 

Any idea how your time/pace yesterday would compare had it been a Saturday with 80-100 players joining you?
		
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At my previous club the comps would be fully booked between 7am and 2pm with 8 minute intervals and in 4-balls, do the maths, 200 members playing within that period! OK I know they wouldn't be all out their at the same time but, its still fully loaded, if you said that it was reaching 4.5hrs to complete then there would be at least 136 golfers on the course, that's 2 groups p/hole, that doesn't sound much if 1 group is holing out whilst the other is teeing off but then take 5 x par 3's out of those figures where 2 groups can't figure, the looking for a ball, 3 off the tee etc and you have mass congestion!   

Do some clubs not help the situation like above with large memberships wanting to play comps and cramming them in or should they create more comps over the weekend or following week to help spread the interest and offer more enjoyable playing conditions?


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## Slab (Oct 8, 2014)

Fish said:



			At my previous club the comps would be fully booked between 7am and 2pm with 8 minute intervals and in 4-balls, do the maths, 200 members playing within that period! OK I know they wouldn't be all out their at the same time but, its still fully loaded, if you said that it was reaching 4.5hrs to complete then there would be at least 136 golfers on the course, that's 2 groups p/hole, that doesn't sound much if 1 group is holing out whilst the other is teeing off but then take 5 x par 3's out of those figures where 2 groups can't figure, the looking for a ball, 3 off the tee etc and you have mass congestion!   

Do some clubs not help the situation like above with large memberships wanting to play comps and cramming them in or should they create more comps over the weekend or following week to help spread the interest and offer more enjoyable playing conditions?
		
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My game this Saturday is a restricted field of 80 with a shotgun start for 20 x 4-balls (so no spacing/gaping holes & a double up on 2 holes) On paper it should flow but even a few minutes delay by a single group for any reason and the backlog will start 

The course layout means nearly every player will lose at least one ball and plenty will lose multiple balls (some to hazards which don't really delay and many others to not being able to find them)   

I expect around a 4:30 duration but wont be checking


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## delc (Oct 8, 2014)

Slab said:



			I think everyone would agree that it doesn't have to take 5 hours, however sometimes it does. Hope you enjoyed your game although the pace for a 3-ball on a Monday would typically not compare to one of the longer rounds 

Any idea how your time/pace yesterday would compare had it been a Saturday with 80-100 players joining you?
		
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The round in question was played on Tuesday morning starting at 9:02 actually! 

If you play at our club at peak times on Saturday and Sunday mornings, you can expect the round to take 4.5 hours, maybe 5 hours, especially if there is a comp on.

Playing a round of golf is a bit like driving round the M25 in the rush hour. You can only go as fast as the guys in front!
 :mmm:


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 8, 2014)

We use to have a bar levy on the card each year. Only Â£50 so hardly bank busting but the club deemed it was off putting to prospective new members and dropped it. I would like it back personally. Amazing just how many members couldn't even spend that amount in a calendar year and the money left on it went into club coffers so a win win really


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## guest100718 (Oct 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We use to have a bar levy on the card each year. Only Â£50 so hardly bank busting but the club deemed it was off putting to prospective new members and dropped it. I would like it back personally. Amazing just how many members couldn't even spend that amount in a calendar year and the money left on it went into club coffers so a *win win* really
		
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you think? 

I wouldnt underestimate the number of people are put off by bar levys.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 8, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			you think? 

I wouldnt underestimate the number of people are put off by bar levys.
		
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Clearly as the club numbers have grown and we're doing all right for members it's obviously had a positive effect


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## bluewolf (Oct 8, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Clearly as the club numbers have grown and we're doing all right for members it's obviously had a positive effect
		
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So why would you like it back? Course getting a bit busy Homie?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2014)

I might question the strength of the correlation between dropping of a bar/food levy and increasing membership and might look for other contributing factors.


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## 6inchcup (Oct 8, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			you think? 

I wouldnt underestimate the number of people are put off by bar levys.
		
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how much a year do you spend in the club house on drinks and food,not MARATHONS.


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## guest100718 (Oct 9, 2014)

6inchcup said:



			how much a year do you spend in the club house on drinks and food,not MARATHONS.
		
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I dont keep a record, but it could be as much as Â£9.36 !! And I bought a pencil for 10p the other day from the Pro shop.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 9, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			So why would you like it back? Course getting a bit busy Homie? 

Click to expand...

Not at all. I just liked the fact the club seemed to get a lot of easy cash downloading the unspent amounts at the end of the year and anything that helps reduce the need to increase my subs is a big :thup: in my book


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not at all. I just liked the fact the club seemed to get a lot of easy cash downloading the unspent amounts at the end of the year and anything that helps reduce the need to increase my subs is a big :thup: in my book
		
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I'm pretty sure that having a bar levy to get lots of easy unspent cash is the absolute wrong reason to have a bar levy!


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## Green Bay Hacker (Oct 13, 2014)

Being a 9 hole course our competitions rely on the later morning groups to take no longer than 2 hours 20 mins to complete their front 9 otherwise they start to delay the afternoon starters. On Saturday one group from the morning took 2 hours 40 to do 9 holes and two groups from the afternoon had already gone out by the time they got to the turn.

A couple of the players from the next group due out then commented about the time taken and things escalated pretty quickly to people squaring up to each other and threats being issued. It took the intervention of the Captain and steward to calm things down before play restarted. Two of the morning fourball decided that they had had enough anyway so there was no problem with their back 9.


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## freddielong (Oct 13, 2014)

Anything over 3.5 hours is to long for me


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## louise_a (Oct 13, 2014)

My group was first out at Wallasey yesterday and we took 5 hours, I don't think anyone moaned about the length of the rounds, well not in range of my hearing at least.


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## rosecott (Oct 13, 2014)

louise_a said:



			My group was first out at Wallasey yesterday and we took 5 hours, I don't think anyone moaned about the length of the rounds, well not in range of my hearing at least.
		
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First out?

5 hours?

Nobody complained?

You're having a laugh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2014)

rosecott said:



			First out?

5 hours?

Nobody complained?

You're having a laugh.
		
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The first group out at North Hants took over 5 hours and no one complained


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 13, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The first group out at North Hants took over 5 hours and no one complained
		
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We got round in about 4 3/4 hours so pace must have speeded up a degree and I was one of the later starters


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## MadAdey (Oct 13, 2014)

freddielong said:



			Anything over 3.5 hours is to long for me
		
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I take it you don't play many medals then, or is your course quite short and easy?


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## garyinderry (Oct 13, 2014)

rosecott said:



			First out?

5 hours?

Nobody complained?

You're having a laugh.
		
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We were 2nd last group.  We never had to wait once. Played at a leisurely pace. 4 ball medal around a big links course can easily take longer than a jaunt around a small parkland course. 

5 hours around lee park you would be ready to top yourself.  5 hours around Wallasey yesterday was a pleasure.  It didn't feel like 5 hours at all.


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## Qwerty (Oct 13, 2014)

louise_a said:



			My group was first out at Wallasey yesterday and we took 5 hours, I don't think anyone moaned about the length of the rounds, well not in range of my hearing at least.
		
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Was it 5hrs  . I was in the group behind and I knew we was playing at a leisurely pace but I had no idea we were out there for 5hrs. It honestly didn't feel like it.
I was a nice day though on a great course and the Golf was pretty good too so I suppose we were just happy to be out there :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 13, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			We were 2nd last group.  We never had to wait once. Played at a leisurely pace. 4 ball medal around a big links course can easily take longer than a jaunt around a small parkland course. 

5 hours around lee park you would be ready to top yourself.  5 hours around Wallasey yesterday was a pleasure.  It didn't feel like 5 hours at all.
		
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Yep, you held us up in the last group all the way round.

If it wasn't for you pesky chompers, I'd have gone really low........


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 13, 2014)

Qwerty said:



			Was it 5hrs  . I was in the group behind and I knew we was playing at a leisurely pace but I had no idea we were out there for 5hrs. It honestly didn't feel like it.
I was a nice day though on a great course and the Golf was pretty good too so I suppose we were just happy to be out there :thup:
		
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Thats sums it all up perfectly - the length you were out there has no meaning - you all had a great time and were not held up and just enjoyed the game


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## garyinderry (Oct 13, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep, you held us up in the last group all the way round.

If it wasn't for you pesky chompers, I'd have gone really low........

Click to expand...

Cheeky sod. I even found the odd fairway yesterday. :rofl:


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## patricks148 (Oct 14, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I take it you don't play many medals then, or is your course quite short and easy?
		
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3.20 for my group on Saturday in the last monthly medal of the year, I wouldn't consider my place short or easy. we do have 10 min gaps this year between groups.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 14, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			3.20 for my group on Saturday in the last monthly medal of the year, I wouldn't consider my place short or easy. we do have 10 min gaps this year between groups.
		
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That sounds good going. We also have ten minute gaps but a shade under four hours is the norm for our medal rounds. Never much over mind except perhaps club champs. Pace of play seems to move reasonably in all our comps. To be honest as long as I keep moving I'm happy and even if it takes 4+ hours it usually doesn't feel that way if you aren't waiting around. 

I think H4H took about 4 3/4 hours but with the banter, stop at the halfway hut and the numbers playing it never really felt I'd been out there that long and to be honest still felt it went far too quick on a lovely course even with me playing as many shots as I did to get my money's worth


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## patricks148 (Oct 14, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That sounds good going. We also have ten minute gaps but a shade under four hours is the norm for our medal rounds. Never much over mind except perhaps club champs. Pace of play seems to move reasonably in all our comps. To be honest as long as I keep moving I'm happy and even if it takes 4+ hours it usually doesn't feel that way if you aren't waiting around. 

I think H4H took about 4 3/4 hours but with the banter, stop at the halfway hut and the numbers playing it never really felt I'd been out there that long and to be honest still felt it went far too quick on a lovely course even with me playing as many shots as I did to get my money's worth
		
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The main thing for me is having to wait to play all the time,  standing on the tee, then walk to the ball wait again etc. 

I remember playing with a mate a couple of years ago at a very short course and it took for ever, we had to wait on every shot, behind a 4 ball with no one in front of them. it turned out to be a 3 hour round (i take my watch off to play) it felt like more


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## Hickory_Hacker (Oct 14, 2014)

It was tropical on Sunday over @ Leven Links, the starting sheet was full to the brim and with plenty of 4 balls it was 3.30 for the round.

No complaints at all  :thup:


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## Snelly (Oct 14, 2014)

I played at St George's Hill last week and enjoyed the first 11 holes immensely.  We then caught up a four ball with a guy in it who is notoriously slow and a sub 4 hour round turned into a 5+ one.  It was awful. Ruined my score too. 

I'd rather not play if the choice is that speed or not at all.  

Slow play is the single biggest problem in golf today.  Slow means selfish and I can't abide it.  

In answer to the OP, over 4 hours 10 minutes for a 4 ball is too long in my book, medal play or not. 3 ball should be 25% faster and a 2 ball in 3 and a quarter hours or less..


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2014)

Snelly said:



			In answer to the OP, over 4 hours 10 minutes for a 4 ball is too long in my book, medal play or not. 3 ball should be 25% faster and a 2 ball in 3 and a quarter hours or less..
		
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So you want a 2 ball to be slower than a 3 ball?


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## delc (Oct 15, 2014)

The longest waits always seem to be while you wait for the group ahead to clear the green before you play your approach shot, or tee shot on a Par-3. These days there seems to be so much faffing around on the greens, with players looking at their putts from every angle, marking, replacing and then lining up their ball, before lots of practice strokes and finally striking the putt. If it finishes beyond tap in range, then the whole ritual is repeated. All copied from what is seen on televised pro tour events?  

My suggestions for speeding up play on the greens.
1) Make the hole a bit bigger.
2) Remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when in the hole, which would remove the necessity of attending, removing and replacing the pin.
3) Encourage players not to mark their balls unless on another players line.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So you want a 2 ball to be slower than a 3 ball?
		
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25% of 4 Hr 10 is around 32 mins so that's a three ball at 3 HR 38 ish and he says a 2 ball at 3 HR 15 ?

Most rounds of 4 balls I see now if medal are around 4 1/2 to 5 hours - a 3 ball around 3 1/2 to 4 hours


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

delc said:



			The longest waits always seem to be while you wait for the group ahead to clear the green before you play your approach shot, or tee shot on a Par-3. These days there seems to be so much faffing around on the greens, with players looking at their putts from every angle, marking, replacing and then lining up their ball, before lots of practice strokes and finally striking the putt. If it finishes beyond tap in range, then the whole ritual is repeated. All copied from what is seen on televised pro tour events?  

My suggestions for speeding up play on the greens.
1) Make the hole a bit bigger.
2) Remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when in the hole, which would remove the necessity of attending, removing and replacing the pin.
3) Encourage players not to mark their balls unless on another players line.
		
Click to expand...

Haven't you already mentioned these in the thread ?


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			25% of 4 Hr 10 is around 32 mins
		
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really? I don't have any of those posh letters after my name, but I'd suggest that 25% of 4hours 10 minutes might just be 62 minutes and 30 seconds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			really? I don't have any of those posh letters after my name, but I'd suggest that 25% of 4hours 10 minutes might just be 62 minutes and 30 seconds.
		
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Sorry you are right - humble apologies was working from 2 hours ten for some reason - ignore my last 

I'm thick - I must change to vote UKIP


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry you are right - humble apologies was working from 2 hours ten for some reason - ignore my last 

I'm thick - I must change to vote UKIP
		
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Lol :thup:


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## delc (Oct 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haven't you already mentioned these in the thread ?
		
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Not exactly in these terms, and worth a refresh anyway!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

delc said:



			Not exactly in these terms, and *worth a refresh anyway*! 

Click to expand...

That would certainly get a different answer if asked forum wide

They will not increase the size of the holes - simple as that


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## North Mimms (Oct 15, 2014)

delc said:



			The longest waits always seem to be while you wait for the group ahead to clear the green before you play your approach shot, or tee shot on a Par-3. These days there seems to be so much faffing around on the greens, with players looking at their putts from every angle, marking, replacing and then lining up their ball, before lots of practice strokes and finally striking the putt. If it finishes beyond tap in range, then the whole ritual is repeated. All copied from what is seen on televised pro tour events?  

My suggestions for speeding up play on the greens.
1) Make the hole a bit bigger.
2) Remove the penalty for hitting the flagstick when in the hole, which would remove the necessity of attending, removing and replacing the pin.
*3) Encourage players not to mark their balls unless on another players line*.
		
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You've played with me and may have noticed that I always mark and line up my ball.
Why should I be discouraged from doing that whilst others instead take 3 practice putt swishes?
Or 2 full practice swings before every shot?

Wherever possible, i am lining up the ball while others are stalking their putt.

There are plenty of ways that people "waste time" during a round.

As long as I remain the fastest walker in my group - as I invariably am- I'll continue to mark my ball before putting, thanks


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## delc (Oct 15, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			You've played with me and may have noticed that I always mark and line up my ball.
Why should I be discouraged from doing that whilst others instead take 3 practice putt swishes?
Or 2 full practice swings before every shot?

Wherever possible, i am lining up the ball while others are stalking their putt.

There are plenty of ways that people "waste time" during a round.

As long as I remain the fastest walker in my group - as I invariably am- I'll continue to mark my ball before putting, thanks
		
Click to expand...

I also use an alignment line on my ball to line up the putt, but I don't faff around like some players do on the green.  I start looking at the green as I walk up to it, as it is often easier to see slopes from a distance, and I use the time while other players are putting or chipping to read the line of my putt, as long as I can do so without distracting them. All things that can speed up play.


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## Smiffy (Oct 16, 2014)

The biggest frustration to me is when somebody putts up to about a foot and then marks their ball!
Ask if it's ok to do so and then knock it in for Gods sake.


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## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			....
There are plenty of ways that people "waste time" during a round.

As long as I remain the fastest walker in my group - as I invariably am- I'll continue to mark my ball before putting, thanks
		
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Absolutely agree! I've had this 'discussion', with an ex-Captain who took nearly 100 shots - including half a dozen 3-putts - and crawled around, in a swindle a long time ago.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 16, 2014)

Is slow play really going to change at your local club on a Saturday morning? Clubs aren't doing enough, mindsets of established members are too entrenched to change, and they will continue to waste and fritter time away as they are doing now. That is the bitter truth and sadly I don't see anything changing soon


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## dufferman (Oct 16, 2014)

We should re-name this thread the roundabout thread.

For every "golf shouldn't be so slow" I ask this: Show me the rule where it says that.

If it's so easy for slow golfers to speed up, why don't faster golfers slow down?

If golf at the monthly medal on a Saturday morning is too slow, don't play it.

If your course is full of miserable old men who "take 100 shots" to get round (why is that a problem??) - join a club that only accepts 18 handicappers or better.

If young members take too much time over a putt just like the pros, maybe become a player on the PGA tour yourself and show them how it's done.

My point is, there's always two sides to the coin. You argue for, there's a counter argument. The ONLY thing we all know is, slow play happens, so the less people complain and the more people deal with it, everyone would enjoy the game more!


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## MadAdey (Oct 16, 2014)

dufferman said:



			We should re-name this thread the roundabout thread.

For every "golf shouldn't be so slow" I ask this: Show me the rule where it says that.

If it's so easy for slow golfers to speed up, why don't faster golfers slow down?

If golf at the monthly medal on a Saturday morning is too slow, don't play it.

If your course is full of miserable old men who "take 100 shots" to get round (why is that a problem??) - join a club that only accepts 18 handicappers or better.

If young members take too much time over a putt just like the pros, maybe become a player on the PGA tour yourself and show them how it's done.

My point is, there's always two sides to the coin. You argue for, there's a counter argument. The ONLY thing we all know is, slow play happens, so the less people complain and the more people deal with it, everyone would enjoy the game more!
		
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:thup: Amen to that!

You know what the problem is on the course? People that when it is busy they still try and get round in 3 hours. They still rush down the fairway and think by standing over their ball with a look of disgust at the group on the gene it will make the round go quicker. They Are probably the same people that tailgate you in heavy traffic thinking it will help everyone get there faster, no it just causes phantom traffic jams, probably causes the same on the course too.


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## richy (Oct 16, 2014)

dufferman said:



			We should re-name this thread the roundabout thread.

For every "golf shouldn't be so slow" I ask this: Show me the rule where it says that.

If it's so easy for slow golfers to speed up, why don't faster golfers slow down?

If golf at the monthly medal on a Saturday morning is too slow, don't play it.

If your course is full of miserable old men who "take 100 shots" to get round (why is that a problem??) - join a club that only accepts 18 handicappers or better.

If young members take too much time over a putt just like the pros, maybe become a player on the PGA tour yourself and show them how it's done.

My point is, there's always two sides to the coin. You argue for, there's a counter argument. The ONLY thing we all know is, slow play happens, so the less people complain and the more people deal with it, everyone would enjoy the game more!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah that's definitely the thing do. 

Instead of trying to get to the route causes of slow play we should just put all our efforts into learning to accept it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2014)

dufferman said:



			We should re-name this thread the roundabout thread.

For every "golf shouldn't be so slow" I ask this: Show me the rule where it says that.

If it's so easy for slow golfers to speed up, why don't faster golfers slow down?

If golf at the monthly medal on a Saturday morning is too slow, don't play it.

If your course is full of miserable old men who "take 100 shots" to get round (why is that a problem??) - join a club that only accepts 18 handicappers or better.

If young members take too much time over a putt just like the pros, maybe become a player on the PGA tour yourself and show them how it's done.

My point is, there's always two sides to the coin. You argue for, there's a counter argument. The ONLY thing we all know is, slow play happens, so the less people complain and the more people deal with it, everyone would enjoy the game more!
		
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Sorry but slow play spoils people's enjoyment of golf 

There is imo a difference between slow play and a slow round - a round can flow but take 5 hours or you can be held up for 5 hours 

The answer isn't - deal with it , it's find out why people were having to wait on each shot and change that reason 

We recently told a member he can only play in a medal before 11 if he goes in a buggy because his slow play was causing major issues 

He isn't happy about it but he was unwilling to understand that he was losing holes every time he played and was a major reason for delays on the course 

Sometimes people just need to be told


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## delc (Oct 16, 2014)

richy said:



			Yeah that's definitely the thing do. 

Instead of trying to get to the route causes of slow play we should just put all our efforts into learning to accept it.
		
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But many people have busy lives and family commitments. Not everyone wants to spend 5 hours on a golf course, and waiting 5 or 10 minutes to play every shot is frankly tedious.  It is perfectly possible to play a round of golf in 3 1/2 hours or less without rushing, even as a four-ball, as long as players get on with it and don't faff around like the tour pros!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2014)

delc said:



			But many people have busy lives and family commitments. Not everyone wants to spend 5 hours on a golf course, and waiting 5 or 10 minutes to play every shot is frankly tedious.  It is perfectly possible to play a round of golf in 3 1/2 hours or less without rushing, even as a four-ball, as long as players get on with it and don't faff around like the tour pros!  

Click to expand...

Richly was being sarcastic


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## North Mimms (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm not that corncerned about what people "do" during their game, be it practice swings or lining up putts, as long as someone in the group is doing something.
What I hate is seeing 4 people walk off a green to the neighbouring tee, then stand there. And stand. No-one teeing off.

I've been in a 4 ball behind and all 4 of us have played our shots and walked to the green in the same time as 4 players have taken to all tee off. It's not like there's a major club selection decision going on- it's Driver or the club you use instead of driver, just as it is EVERY time you play that hole!


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## delc (Oct 16, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I'm not that corncerned about what people "do" during their game, be it practice swings or lining up putts, as long as someone in the group is doing something.
What I hate is seeing 4 people walk off a green to the neighbouring tee, then stand there. And stand. No-one teeing off.

I've been in a 4 ball behind and all 4 of us have played our shots and walked to the green in the same time as 4 players have taken to all tee off. It's not like there's a major club selection decision going on- it's Driver or the club you use instead of driver, just as it is EVERY time you play that hole!
		
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Don't think I have ever seen players just standing on the tee doing nothing, unless they are waiting for the group ahead to get out of range!


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## hovis (Oct 16, 2014)

what is clear about the reply's in this thread is there is two groups of golfers.  those that play golf and have other things to do that day and others that play golf and have nothing else to do that day.

I play with a guy that has a 4 hour window to play golf.  that includes travel.  when the course is empty a round takes under 3 hours easy.  but when you have a group of golfers in front that have nowhere to be then this causes a problem.  my friend doesn't moan because his time restrictions are his fault but you get the idea


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## DanFST (Oct 16, 2014)

It takes what it takes, I don't have a problem with a round taking 4 odd hours normally. 

What does annoy me is people with no awareness of the group behind, It rarely happens to me,  but me standing next to my ball for 5 mins on the fairway is not on. Golf is about the day and the company for me, but my group will have a laugh whilst someone is lining up on the tee or practise swinging or whatever. I've seen groups having a cigarette next to there bags with no one on the tee box, that's incredibly annoying!  I also have a problem with obnoxious people rushing through a round If you want to get a quick round in, don't play on a Saturday morning and expect to push your way through. You hitting your teeshot whilst i'm waiting for the group in front to move, so i can take my second will always mean i'm not letting you play through.


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## North Mimms (Oct 16, 2014)

delc said:



			Don't think I have ever seen players just standing on the tee doing nothing, unless they are waiting for the group ahead to get out of range!  

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Really?
It's amazing how long a group of 4 blokes can take to decide who is going to play, or just have to have a chat or finish the joke...
As far as I'm concerned, you walk off green , walk to next tee and someone should be standing on tee with club in hand within 10 seconds

I've been playing to the 7th green assuming that the group on the 8th tee are waiting for group ahead, then reach my green and look down their fairway to see group ahead on 9th tee!


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## delc (Oct 16, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Really?
It's amazing how long a group of 4 blokes can take to decide who is going to play, or just have to have a chat or finish the joke...
As far as I'm concerned, you walk off green , walk to next tee and someone should be standing on tee with club in hand within 10 seconds

I've been playing to the 7th green assuming that the group on the 8th tee are waiting for group ahead, then reach my green and look down their fairway to see group ahead on 9th tee!
		
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We tend to play "ready golf" at our club!


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## North Mimms (Oct 16, 2014)

delc said:



			We tend to play "ready golf" at our club! 

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You might, but we have a core membership of ditherers!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 16, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but slow play spoils people's enjoyment of golf 

The answer isn't - deal with it , it's find out why people were having to wait on each shot and change that reason 

Sometimes people just need to be told
		
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The problem is most clubs aren't interested and too many members are entrenched in their habits. If the club doesn't make the effort then the members won't and even then the club needs to make it a long term commitment and not a quick fix or knee jerk reaction. As it happens, pace of play isn't a problem at my place so I've not any particular axe to grind but I've been at others where it is. As a guest and fresh eyes you can see the issues but what can you do other than mention it to your playing partner


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## richy (Oct 16, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Richly was being sarcastic 

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Thanks Phil. At least some people are sharp enough


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## Fish (Oct 17, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The problem is most clubs aren't interested and too many members are entrenched in their habits. If the club doesn't make the effort then the members won't and even then the club needs to make it a long term commitment and not a quick fix or knee jerk reaction. As it happens, pace of play isn't a problem at my place so I've not any particular axe to grind but I've been at others where it is. As a guest and fresh eyes you can see the issues but what can you do other than mention it to your playing partner
		
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As I've said earlier, I think clubs can help more by spreading comps out, you could have a monthly medal start from 7.00 (summer) until 1pm on both Saturday & Sunday leaving the afternoons for the social golfers and that way you haven't got a a rammed full field on a single day, it may attract more entrants as there would be more tee times available but spread over 2 shorter days rather than 1 could go some way to alleviating the problem?


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## Slab (Oct 17, 2014)

I believe that clubs & courses themselves are a far bigger problem/contributor to a slow pace of play and are probably quite happy that players continue to blame one another


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2014)

Maybe the answer to all this is to have a Par 3 as the first hole. Quite often golfers on the 1st tee will hit as soon as the group ahead are out of range, and this means that the 8/10 minute gap between groups is already reduced. With a Par 3 first up the group behind has to wait for the green to clear before they can play. By the time they have hit and walked to the green the first group should all have teed off and be walking down the fairway on the second. By the time the second group have putted and walked to the second tee the first group should've played and be walking towards the green. This should cause a natural spacing throughout the day.


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## dufferman (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe the answer to all this is to have a Par 3 as the first hole. Quite often golfers on the 1st tee will hit as soon as the group ahead are out of range, and this means that the 8/10 minute gap between groups is already reduced. With a Par 3 first up the group behind has to wait for the green to clear before they can play. By the time they have hit and walked to the green the first group should all have teed off and be walking down the fairway on the second. By the time the second group have putted and walked to the second tee the first group should've played and be walking towards the green. This should cause a natural spacing throughout the day.
		
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That might be good for new courses, but I can't see my course building a new tee box halfway up the 1st fairway and dropping a shot on the course...


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2014)

dufferman said:



			That might be good for new courses, but I can't see my course building a new tee box halfway up the 1st fairway and dropping a shot on the course...
		
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I understand where you're coming from but what about building a new green halfway up the 1st fairway and moving the 2nd tee back to add a shot to that hole? That way you don't lose a shot from the course. I know not all courses could do it, especially where the first two holes run parallel to each other, but could be a solution for some courses.


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## Slab (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			I understand where you're coming from but what about building a new green halfway up the 1st fairway and moving the 2nd tee back to add a shot to that hole? That way you don't lose a shot from the course. I know not all courses could do it, especially where the first two holes run parallel to each other, but could be a solution for some courses.
		
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Might work on the odd course but if its not the first hole that's the cause of the course 'choke point'â„¢ then it doesn't actually fix that courses slow pace problem


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2014)

Slab said:



			Might work on the odd course but if its not the first hole that's the cause of the course 'choke point'â„¢ then it doesn't actually fix that courses slow pace problem
		
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Possibly, but if it maintained the gaps between groups starting by forcing them not to tee off as soon as the group ahead are out of range then hopefully as groups approach what is traditionally the 'choke point'â„¢ they should be more spread out and ease the pressure on that bit of the course.


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## louise_a (Oct 17, 2014)

Our first is a par 3 but we still get backlogs.


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## Slab (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Possibly, but if it maintained the gaps between groups starting by forcing them not to tee off as soon as the group ahead are out of range then hopefully as groups approach what is traditionally the 'choke point'â„¢ they should be more spread out and ease the pressure on that bit of the course.
		
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Doesn't make any difference, if the course choke point occurs on a hole that takes 13 minutes to play through and your shiney new par 3 1st hole means groups are going out 9 minutes apart. By the time 20 groups have reached the choke point its stacked up like the landing pattern at Malaga airport


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe the answer to all this is to have a Par 3 as the first hole. Quite often golfers on the 1st tee will hit as soon as the group ahead are out of range, and this means that the 8/10 minute gap between groups is already reduced. With a Par 3 first up the group behind has to wait for the green to clear before they can play. By the time they have hit and walked to the green the first group should all have teed off and be walking down the fairway on the second. By the time the second group have putted and walked to the second tee the first group should've played and be walking towards the green. This should cause a natural spacing throughout the day.
		
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Funny enough our opener off the whites is a 229 yard par 3. Not easy but as you rightly say with everyone having to wait for the green to clear we tend to stick to the ten minute slots. With the second being a par 5, the group in front are normally playing their seconds if not walking on time the group behind come onto the tee and so the round flows. 

Problems tend to occur at our 6th (178 yard par 3) which seems to be a bottleneck but again once that's negotiated it runs fairly smoothly. Four hours is the norm and we tend to stick to it (if not a fraction under) for both social and competitive rounds so I can't really complain. There are times when you do get a group (we have a small roll up that goes out before ours at weekends that are notorious but refuse to take any notice of requests to speed up) that can cause an issue but by and large all's good


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## delc (Oct 17, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe the answer to all this is to have a Par 3 as the first hole. Quite often golfers on the 1st tee will hit as soon as the group ahead are out of range, and this means that the 8/10 minute gap between groups is already reduced. With a Par 3 first up the group behind has to wait for the green to clear before they can play. By the time they have hit and walked to the green the first group should all have teed off and be walking down the fairway on the second. By the time the second group have putted and walked to the second tee the first group should've played and be walking towards the green. This should cause a natural spacing throughout the day.
		
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Par 3's do tend to be bottlenecks, because only one group can play them at a time. Our long par-3 6th hole often causes a hold up, particularly as some players need more than one shot to get there. Don't know what you can do about this, other than banning Par-3's! Maybe making them call up holes might help, but I suspect that 'Ealth 'n Safety' and the risk of players been hit by golf balls as they wait by the green might preclude this!  :mmm:


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## chellie (Oct 17, 2014)

Surely a starter on the first tee on competition days ensuring people tee off at the correct time and not early could help.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

Would either be a cost implication or a volunteer required not hard to find for clubs these days


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 17, 2014)

chellie said:



			Surely a starter on the first tee on competition days ensuring people tee off at the correct time and not early could help.
		
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Further to having a par three and so having to wait, we have a marshall (volunteer) who ball watches from halfway down the hole which also helps speed thing up and can hop into the buggy back to the tee to deal with issues. Works a dream


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## cookelad (Oct 17, 2014)

We don't have tee times at our place you just go when the group in front is out of range, then we queue up on the 2nd tee, the 3rd is a little better before queuing up again on the 4th tee (par 3) after that generally the pace of play flows quite well.

You only have to walk down the street to realise that some people have the ability to move at glacial speeds so odds are a few of them will find their way on to golf courses.


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## North Mimms (Oct 17, 2014)

delc said:



			Par 3's do tend to be bottlenecks, because only one group can play them at a time. Our long par-3 6th hole often causes a hold up, particularly as some players need more than one shot to get there. Don't know what you can do about this, other than banning Par-3's! Maybe making them call up holes might help, but I suspect that 'Ealth 'n Safety' and the risk of players been hit by golf balls as they wait by the green might preclude this!  :mmm:
		
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The 6th did indeed used to be a call up hole but it was dropped years ago, possibly after someone got hit. 
I find it a notorious slicing hole so won't tee off until group ahead reach the hedge!


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