# Ge 2017



## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-pro-nhs-rebellion-starts-in-south.html

I feel some SILH vibes in leafy Surrey.

Power to the People


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## User62651 (May 9, 2017)

Alas few seem to be looking beyond the Brexit issue at this general election, all other normal general election issues seems to be playing a poor second fiddle to it. Up here it's more Independence ref 2 voting that's still the over-riding issue as we can do nothing about Brexit as part of UK. 
People will be voting for parties alien to them normally just to try and swing these 2 issues.  

We need to get past these 2 very divisive issues ASAP for any kind of progress.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 9, 2017)

If Surrey is revolting, things must be pretty bad in Toryland.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If Surrey is revolting, things must be pretty bad in Toryland.
		
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Keep Fishing, no one is biting though


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2017)

Good to see the Tories want to bring back foxhunting.
Should never have been banned in the first place.

Probably the least efficient way of killing vermin but still worthwhile and quite an economic boost to rural life.


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## IanM (May 10, 2017)

Blimey, that'll set the cat amongst the pigeons.... or hounds amongst , eh... the um foxes...

I know our MP was taking about this during the coalition.... no chance with the Libdums around.

We have a Hunt in our village, lots of job depended on it.   Funny thing fox-hunting.  Not something I'd do myself and I've never had the need to chase wild animals while wearing funny clothes!!  And not the most efficient way of killing foxes.  Also, I've seen many hen houses after fox has visited!  

I am also sure many anti hunt folk think "class war" before "animal rights!"  

Ho hum....not a priority for the Govt Mrs May surely.


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## Junior (May 10, 2017)

A General Election has been called and fox hunting is mentioned.......pause, rewind, play


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## jp5 (May 10, 2017)

Thought there had already been a vote on foxhunting? Will of the people, you lost get over it, etc. etc.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Thought there had already been a vote on foxhunting? Will of the people, you lost get over it, etc. etc.
		
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This. Appalling past time. I hope this doesn't get past the thinking about it stage. There are better ways of creating jobs than the pursuit of mutilating animals.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Keep Fishing, no one is biting though 

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WRONG

In the recent local council elections - three seats were contested in my town.  All were previously held by conservatives.  They lost two of them and held on to the third by 60 votes.  The constituency of South West Surrey is primarily made up of the Borough of Waverley...in the EU Referendum the result was...

The turnout was 82.3%.

The total number of ballot papers counted was	75,999
The total number of votes cast in favour of REMAIN was	44,241
The total number of votes cast in favour of LEAVE was	31,601
The total number of ballot papers rejected was	57

Whilst Hunt had a huge majority last election - that was in the wake of LibDems in coalition with the Tories and given the LibDem Student Loans farrago.  But back in 2001 the GE result had the Tories winning the seat by a majority of 861 (turnout 70%/50,000 votes cast); then in 2005 Tories winning the seat by a majority of 5711 (turnout 72%/52,500 votes cast).

Jeremy Hunt may currently have a large majority - but there is a huge latent non-Tory vote.  And what with Brexit and the state of the NHS our dear Jeremy has a bit of work to do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Thought there had already been a vote on foxhunting? Will of the people, you lost get over it, etc. etc.
		
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Come on @jp5 - parliament is allowed to change it's mind.  That is if it get's a vote...and that isn't always easy...


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2017)

Foxes like badgers are becoming a pest, not only in country where they do a considerable amount of damage but in urban areas.  Hunting might not be the answer but something needs to be done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Foxes like badgers are becoming a pest, not only in country where they do a considerable amount of damage but in urban areas.  Hunting might not be the answer but something needs to be done.
		
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That something need not be hunting.  

But this isn't about hunting - it's about relative importance of policies in the context of a GE.  Hunting?  Ah yes - that's one of the most important things for parliament to be debating when it won't get much opportunity to review Brexit progress, and the Civil Service are swamped by preparing for a currently undefined Brexit.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2017)

Hunting is hugely inefficient. If you want control the fox population hunts are not the answer. Hunting is a social activity, it has nothing to do with vermin control.


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## USER1999 (May 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This. Appalling past time. I hope this doesn't get past the thinking about it stage. There are better ways of creating jobs than the pursuit of mutilating animals.
		
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Fishing?


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## User62651 (May 10, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Fishing?
		
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Not the same - fish are either kept to eat or are put back alive with a smallish injury from hook but you do have a point - hunting is hunting, some is acceptable some isn't - not a black and white issue. Hunting does include fishing, numerous ways to hunt but ultimately we all dont partake because of agriculture i.e. we dont need to hunt for food because we've evolved to be clever enough as a species to not need to anymore. Not sure that means we should criticise those that still want to and have a strong instinct or desire to. Has to be sustainable of course, many of UKs former native beasts were shot to extinction - lynx, boar, wolf, bear etc etc. Not good.
I find fox hunting with hounds a bit cruel and unsavoury but freedom of choice in life is important too. I'm a bit on the fence with blood sports tbh as I like fishing and I have shot rabbits as vermin control but dont anymore.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Fishing?
		
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I don't fish either. It's a fair point and I would not defend it.


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## Old Skier (May 10, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Fishing?
		
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Correct many animals get injured through fishing but banning that wouldn't go down well.  fox hunting on a manifesto, really or is this another blind by our fisherman.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 10, 2017)

When I go fly fishing it's the human animals that are at the greatest risk.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When I go fly fishing it's the human animals that are at the greatest risk.

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Catching a sheep on the back cast is hilarious. They really make the reel whine.


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## Imurg (May 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Catching a sheep on the back cast is hilarious. They really make the reel whine.
		
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I thought they went Baa..!!&#128533;


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2017)

Imurg said:



			I thought they went Baa..!!&#62997;
		
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Two elephants and a tambourine fall off a cliff



ba-bum tsch


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hunting is hugely inefficient. If you want control the fox population hunts are not the answer. Hunting is a social activity, *it has nothing to do with vermin control*.
		
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Not even when they fall off of their horsesâ€¦â€¦.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 10, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not even when they fall off of their horsesâ€¦â€¦. 

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There's always the occasional bonus ðŸ˜


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## spongebob59 (May 10, 2017)

Daily Torygraph reporting a manifesto leak :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_AmVYVhghCXpn


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Daily Torygraph reporting a manifesto leak :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_AmVYVhghCXpn

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If its genuine it exposes a massive hole in Labour's plans. Where does a Labour govt find the money to buy back businesses like the Post Office? Oh, that's right. It intends to borrow its way out of debt... how does that work then? Borrow to get out of debt? I thought borrowing meant being in debt. 

Wait, wait... higher taxation, especially businesses. But businesses retain their ratings by ensuring dividends are paid and their debt is serviced. Prices go up to ensure dividends are paid. But if prices go up, workers will demand bigger pay rises to pay for the more expensive goods. Oh we've been here before... anyone remember the fantastic pay rises of the mid/late 70's and early 80's? There were even pay rises mid year to try and keep up with inflation. Carnage!


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## spongebob59 (May 11, 2017)

Reported on BBC site now


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## spongebob59 (May 11, 2017)

Looks like worzel gummage is going all in with his lefty hand.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

Strangely enough re-nationalising PO, Rail, Bus and Energy sound like very strong vote winners to the age group who mainly voted Leave.
Bring back capital punishment, the birch and national service and he would be on a sure fire winner.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely enough re-nationalising PO, Rail, Bus and Energy sound like very strong vote winners to the age group who mainly voted Leave.
Bring back capital punishment, the birch and national service and he would be on a sure fire winner.
		
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Not sure where you got that information from but on the up side, the Leavers have more sense and although it sounds like a good idea they know how big a drain on national finances these schemes would be.

Giving the public sector more money just means they will want more money.


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## IanM (May 11, 2017)

Trying to suss out what colour the Labour Cabinet favour for the "Peoples' Suits" and whether the pocket for the Little Red Book is on the left or right?  

Also, no mention of which of his friends he'd invite for tea at Number 10 first?  Hamas or Hezbollah?  We need to know this stuff!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			Also, no mention of which of his friends he'd invite for tea at Number 10 first?  Hamas or Hezbollah?  We need to know this stuff! 

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I get your point with this but let's say he invites them round and that leads to peace in the area then that would be an invitation that we would all be grateful was made. We managed peace in N.Ireland by talking to terrorists, Colombia has done the same, there are other examples around the world, how would this be different? I'd rather someone was talking to these organisations then the area just carried on simmering and exploding.


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## IanM (May 11, 2017)

Was being facetious... but those two organisation's definition of peace and successful outcome involves things that you wouldn't like very much. Corbyn referring to them "as friends" in that infamous speech tells me all I need to know


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We managed peace in N.Ireland by talking to terrorists.
		
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More peaceful perhaps but unfortunately the security forces in NI are dealing with a number of incidents a week.


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## User62651 (May 11, 2017)

Why don't they just call this the Golf Monthly English Conservative Old Boys Golf Forum ?

Will find a more considered and balanced political debate elsewhere.

Utterly tedious here.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			Was being facetious... but those two organisation's definition of peace and successful outcome involves things that you wouldn't like very much. Corbyn referring to them "as friends" in that infamous speech tells me all I need to know
		
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Whilst the Tories embrace and sell loads of arms to their 'friends' in Saudi Arabia. Double standards I am afraid.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Why don't they just call this the Golf Monthly English Conservative Old Boys Golf Forum ?

Will find a more considered and balanced political debate elsewhere.

Utterly tedious here.

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Not just tedious.....worrying as well.
Anyone with a different view to UKIP/Tory/BNP is hounded and bullied off from here.
Brave new world eh!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not just tedious.....worrying as well.
Anyone with a different view to UKIP/Tory/BNP is hounded and bullied off from here.
Brave new world eh!
		
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I know and experience what you mean...

Except I'm not going to be bullied or put off by curt and superior dismissals.  I can stand back if I so wish and picture the Gadarene mob, squealing and hurtling with ever-increasing ferocity for the cliff-edge.  But some of us are not among them.  Politics may be sour but how sweet it is to be on the right side of the argument.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not just tedious.....worrying as well.
Anyone with a different view to UKIP/Tory/BNP is hounded and bullied off from here.
Brave new world eh!
		
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Tosh different views doesn't mean people have UKIP/Tory or BNP views unlike the ultra extreme views of the SNP (very similar to BNP) Marxist and ultra federalist views expressed by the fishing party on here.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Politics may be sour but how sweet it is to be on the right side of the argument.
		
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The views of the extremist "I'm right and the majority are wrong".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			WRONG

In the recent local council elections - three seats were contested in my town.  All were previously held by conservatives.  They lost two of them and held on to the third by 60 votes.  The constituency of South West Surrey is primarily made up of the Borough of Waverley...in the EU Referendum the result was...

The turnout was 82.3%.

The total number of ballot papers counted was	75,999
The total number of votes cast in favour of REMAIN was	44,241
The total number of votes cast in favour of LEAVE was	31,601
The total number of ballot papers rejected was	57

Whilst Hunt had a huge majority last election - that was in the wake of LibDems in coalition with the Tories and given the LibDem Student Loans farrago.  But back in 2001 the GE result had the Tories winning the seat by a majority of 861 (turnout 70%/50,000 votes cast); then in 2005 Tories winning the seat by a majority of 5711 (turnout 72%/52,500 votes cast).

Jeremy Hunt may currently have a large majority - but there is a huge latent non-Tory vote.  And what with Brexit and the state of the NHS our dear Jeremy has a bit of work to do.
		
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I see no response to my FACTS about the South West Surrey constituency - and I know why.  Because as DfT said ... _If Surrey is revolting, things must be pretty bad in Toryland _

Not all of Toryland I grant you - but things are looking just a little bit shoogly in this particular part of it.  really looking forward to the hustings with Jeremy on trial...


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Whilst the Tories embrace and sell loads of arms to their 'friends' in Saudi Arabia. Double standards I am afraid.
		
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When did the Troy's build this factory.  I suppose arms sales to this country never went on under Labour.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see no response to my FACTS about the South West Surrey constituency - and I know why.  Because as DfT said ... _If Surrey is revolting, things must be pretty bad in Toryland _

Not all of Toryland I grant you - but things are looking just a little bit shoogly in this particular part of it.  really looking forward to the hustings with Jeremy on trial...

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The problem with Doon saying it normally means he's chucking a firecracker into the argument to get a bite  and then walks away and let's you continue to ramble on about it.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2017)

IanM said:



			Was being facetious... but those two organisation's definition of peace and successful outcome involves things that you wouldn't like very much. Corbyn referring to them "as friends" in that infamous speech tells me all I need to know
		
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I did get that but I still think my point is fair. In the end the best chance of peace is to talk to both sides. The issues out there are deep rooted and whilst I 100% do not defend what these organisations do the Israeli's are throwing petrol on the fire every day. I know the friends comment is often raised but is that not the way diplomacy starts? You call someone a friend, shake their hand and see if you can find a compromise. Start the talks with a threat or an insult and you really are not going to get anywhere.


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know and experience what you mean...

Except I'm not going to be bullied or put off by curt and superior dismissals.  I can stand back if I so wish and picture the Gadarene mob, squealing and hurtling with ever-increasing ferocity for the cliff-edge.  But some of us are not among them.  Politics may be sour but how sweet it is to be on the right side of the argument.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Not just tedious.....worrying as well.
Anyone with a different view to UKIP/Tory/BNP is hounded and bullied off from here.
Brave new world eh!
		
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maxfli65 said:



			Why don't they just call this the Golf Monthly English Conservative Old Boys Golf Forum ?

Will find a more considered and balanced political debate elsewhere.

Utterly tedious here.

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This is all 'Code' that translated means 'Our argument is weak and will not stand up to scrutiny so as a last resort we will try insulting those who won the vote' 

  Typical left wing policy.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get your point with this but let's say he invites them round and that leads to peace in the area then that would be an invitation that we would all be grateful was made. We managed peace in N.Ireland by talking to terrorists, Colombia has done the same, there are other examples around the world, how would this be different? I'd rather someone was talking to these organisations then the area just carried on simmering and exploding.
		
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Totally agree with your point. However, Corbyn was meeting with and standing on podiums with said organisations contrary to Her Majesty's Government's foreign policy of the day. I get where he was coming from but, equally, think it was very wrong in the extreme of him to do so.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see no response to my FACTS about the South West Surrey constituency - and I know why.  Because as DfT said ... _If Surrey is revolting, things must be pretty bad in Toryland _

Not all of Toryland I grant you - but things are looking just a little bit shoogly in this particular part of it.  really looking forward to the hustings with Jeremy on trial...

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I hadn't realised we had to respond to what is happening in some leafy suburb in the southeast of England. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss what's going on with Hunt in his constituency. I don't like the guy, and I thought his loaded questions during an NHS walkround this week were disgusting But in the great scheme of a GE he's one of over 600 MP's, many of which will be having local issues.

But if you want to talk about manifestos rather than something that affects 75,999 voters lets crack on.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Totally agree with your point. However, Corbyn was meeting with and standing on podiums with said organisations contrary to Her Majesty's Government's foreign policy of the day. I get where he was coming from but, equally, think it was very wrong in the extreme of him to do so.
		
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I'm pretty sure that when the Conservative govt of the time was secretly speaking to the IRA / Sinn Fein back in the day that was also contrary to their official position. What you say in public and what happens behind the scenes is often quite different in foreign policy. Corbyn was upfront about it. Not media savvy but then I don't think he has ever cared about that. His point is consistent, if you want to end conflicts then you have a far better chance by talking than by trying to simply blow the opposition to pieces. This is particularly the case when you get into guerrilla territory because they don't stand in neat lines and wear a uniform that identifies who you are.


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## User62651 (May 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			This is all 'Code' that translated means 'Our argument is weak and will not stand up to scrutiny so as a last resort we will try insulting those who won the vote' 

  Typical left wing policy.
		
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Insulting? - pretty rich coming from you.

As for codebreaking - Alan Turing you ain't.

Also not voting Tory does not make you a left winger, you're assuming we're all Labour voters, some may be but I have no party allegiance - will weigh up and consider all issues, not blindly follow one party no matter what. All parties have a mix of good, middling and bad policy.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Insulting? - pretty rich coming from you.

As for codebreaking - Alan Turing you ain't.

Also not voting Tory does not make you a left winger, you're assuming we're all Labour voters, some may be but I have no party allegiance - will weigh up and consider all issues, not blindly follow one party no matter what. All parties have a mix of good, middling and bad policy.
		
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Same as most of us yet you insist on calling those that disagree with you as right wing.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm pretty sure that when the Conservative govt of the time was secretly speaking to the IRA / Sinn Fein back in the day that was also contrary to their official position. What you say in public and what happens behind the scenes is often quite different in foreign policy. Corbyn was upfront about it. Not media savvy but then I don't think he has ever cared about that. His point is consistent, if you want to end conflicts then you have a far better chance by talking than by trying to simply blow the opposition to pieces. This is particularly the case when you get into guerrilla territory because they don't stand in neat lines and wear a uniform that identifies who you are.
		
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It would be naÃ¯ve to think the Govt of the day, whoever it is, isn't talking behind the scenes. However, doing what Corbyn did in public goes some way towards legitimising terrorist groups, and also goes some way to fostering some sympathy and support, both in the UK and in its home country. It also weakens the official Govt line. Do you think the Benghazi Gazette didn't post up a story of a British MP meeting with Hamas and Hezbollah?


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It would be naÃ¯ve to think the Govt of the day, whoever it is, isn't talking behind the scenes. However, doing what Corbyn did in public goes some way towards legitimising terrorist groups, and also goes some way to fostering some sympathy and support, both in the UK and in its home country. It also weakens the official Govt line. Do you think the Benghazi Gazette didn't post up a story of a British MP meeting with Hamas and Hezbollah?
		
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I would have expected the government of the day in consultation with the opposition leadership to be holding secretive talks however a relatively unknown backbencher with little sway or influence in his own party at the time was after nothing more but publicity which has now come home to roost.  The man even continued to support Adams & McGuinness when they became elected MPs and refused to take their seats even though they were being paid thousands of pounds of tax payers money.  The man is nothing more than a puppet who is manipulated by extremists who have no interest in the Labour Party or its policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Totally agree with your point. However, Corbyn was meeting with and standing on podiums with said organisations contrary to Her Majesty's Government's foreign policy of the day. I get where he was coming from but, equally, think it was very wrong in the extreme of him to do so.



I hadn't realised we had to respond to what is happening in some leafy suburb in the southeast of England. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss what's going on with Hunt in his constituency. I don't like the guy, and I thought his loaded questions during an NHS walkround this week were disgusting But in the great scheme of a GE he's one of over 600 MP's, many of which will be having local issues.

But if you want to talk about manifestos rather than something that affects 75,999 voters lets crack on.
		
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Well you might want to tell one of our fellow posters to be not quite so dismissive about something that is actually true.  

If it were not at all important then why was SW Surrey and the anti-Tory Progressive Alliance that seems likely for the GE the subject of a commentary in the _i _newspaper a few days ago.  Albeit that the PA was not given much chance of success - it is nonetheless a true reflection of _unrest in Toryland _that DfT pointed out.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well you might want to tell one of our fellow posters to be not quite so dismissive about something that is actually true.  

If it were not at all important then why was SW Surrey and the anti-Tory Progressive Alliance that seems likely for the GE the subject of a commentary in the _i _newspaper a few days ago.  Albeit that the PA was not given much chance of success - it is nonetheless a true reflection of _unrest in Toryland _that DfT pointed out.
		
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I see farmer Giles has had a few sheep rustled last week, that was in the Peterhead Times. I'm not meaning to be dismissive but individuals latching on what isn't a huge thing UK wide just isn't that important. I don't doubt for one minute that some high profile MP's will lose their seats. It happens at every GE, but why the typical sensationalism that we are being brainwashed with via the media.

Unrest in Toryland. Unless things change quite a bit in the next 4 weeks we're going to see a Tory landslide...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

_New York Times_ today - opinion piece on Theresa May's vision for the UK

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/...rod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I see farmer Giles has had a few sheep rustled last week, that was in the Peterhead Times. I'm not meaning to be dismissive but individuals latching on what isn't a huge thing UK wide just isn't that important. I don't doubt for one minute that some high profile MP's will lose their seats. It happens at every GE, *but why the typical sensationalism that we are being brainwashed with via the media.*

Unrest in Toryland. Unless things change quite a bit in the next 4 weeks we're going to see a Tory landslide...
		
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Fight back against such Paul Dacre and Murdoch who have specialised in this over the decades - and have succeeded 

it is going to be a Tory landslide I agree.  Very depressing as it will be on the back of Brexit when in fact a larger majority won't help the negotiations with the EU but might help internal Tory negotiations to make for a less severe Brexit.

And she will claim an electoral mandate for her manifesto - a manifesto that I predict will have had little influence on those who will vote for her.


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## Raesy92 (May 11, 2017)

Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...
		
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I just don't get Corbyn at all - his apparent 'authenticity' in front of the public doesn't ring true for me one little bit.  Everything he says feels scripted and rather forced, to me he does not speak 'freely' and truly from 'the heart' - because he pauses and stumbles and mangles words as he thinks about what he is saying as he speaks.  And his thinking is to check that it is aligned with what he thinks he should be saying - to be consistent with the message and what he wants others to think of him.  But for me he is just not 'authentic' - his is a constructed front.

A bit like out PM in fact.


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## Old Skier (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_New York Times_ today - opinion piece on Theresa May's vision for the UK

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/...rod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0

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Good to see you broadening your horizons. You should see what the British press are saying about the American President.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_New York Times_ today - opinion piece on Theresa May's vision for the UK

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/...rod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0

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You criticise the media then post up a link for a newspaper 3500 miles away...a decent piece in terms of a political stance but just like the right wing press you despise, it's an opinion, not news.


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## jp5 (May 11, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...
		
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At first glances it looks like the sort of manifesto that would provide a better, more equal, country for our children and grandchildren to live in.


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## ger147 (May 11, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...
		
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No...


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

jp5 said:



			At first glances it looks like the sort of manifesto that would provide a better, more equal, country for our children and grandchildren to live in.
		
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As long as they have no aspirations of getting a job or starting a business.


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## ColchesterFC (May 11, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...
		
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Not for me. As a small business owner the pledge to raise corporation tax to 26% ensures that they won't get my vote. It's being billed as making big business pay more but also punishes tens of thousands of small businesses at the same time. Along with the increase in the minimum wage I'm fairly confident that it will lead to job losses at smaller companies that are just about surviving now but will struggle under these new rules.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Good to see you broadening your horizons. You should see what the British press are saying about the American President.
		
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The British press don't report the half of it.  I keep up to date on matters across the pond watching MSNBC, CNN, CBS and NBC news clips - as well as David Pakman and TYT - all on Youtube - so I have a pretty good idea of what is going on over there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			As long as they have no aspirations of getting a job or starting a business.
		
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Explain please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not for me. As a small business owner the pledge to raise corporation tax to 26% ensures that they won't get my vote. It's being billed as making big business pay more but also punishes tens of thousands of small businesses at the same time. Along with the increase in the minimum wage I'm fairly confident that it will lead to job losses at smaller companies that are just about surviving now but will struggle under these new rules.
		
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So who are the Tories going to go to for the tax increases they need to put in place to fund the NHS and fill the Brexit hole?  Oh I forgot - the multinationals that they have studiously failed to get to pay their taxes, and increased efficiency...it's just magic.


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who are the Tories going to go to for the tax increases they need to put in place to fund the NHS and fill the Brexit hole?  Oh I forgot - the multinationals that they have studiously failed to get to pay their taxes, and increased efficiency...it's just magic.
		
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Surely you didn't miss the Â£350 million plastered all over the bus!?


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Explain please.
		
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What explanation does it need.  Do you not think that raising Corporation tax to 26% will lose peoples jobs, cut back investment and reduce new businesses.   I take it you have never ran a business?


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So who are the Tories going to go to for the tax increases they need to put in place to fund the NHS and fill the Brexit hole?  Oh I forgot - the multinationals that they have studiously failed to get to pay their taxes, and increased efficiency...it's just magic.
		
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Do you believe these multinationals don't pay any tax.  Do they not pay Ni, do their employees not pay income tax, when their employees purchase anything do they not pay tax. Lets drive them away so that we no longer have to take their dirty money


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## Hobbit (May 11, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Does labours leaked manifesto promises make them a party worth voting for? Interested to hear peoples opinions, certainly better than bringing back fox hunting ...
		
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There's some great stuff it, certainly some things I'd be happy to vote for. But "show me the money." Convince me this is affordable and not just some vote grabber.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

Tory no-name on panel of QT from Edinburgh.
'Ruth Davidson has done a fantastic job'
Audience breaks into spontaneous laughter:lol:

The usual plant in the audience.
Fat, baldy guy with 'orange' half zip top who Dimbledumb allowed free reign is a Stirling Tory councillor.


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory no-name on panel of QT from Edinburgh.
'Ruth Davidson has done a fantastic job'
Audience breaks into spontaneous laughter:lol:

The usual plant in the audience.
Fat, baldy guy with 'orange' half zip top who Dimbledumb allowed free reign is a Stirling Tory councillor.
		
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Right, so it's unacceptable to be a Tory Councillor and be a Tory in your eyes but worse than that it's wrong to be fat, baldy and wear an 'orange' half zip top!      I suppose if he was English as well you would have  spontaneously combusted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Surely you didn't miss the Â£350 million plastered all over the bus!?
		
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Isn't that going to the Â£60bn set aside for mitigating short term costs of leaving?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chancellors-60bn-brexit-fighting-fund-n7hmvzptq

Which is a pity - as that amount of money would fund a fair bit of the Labour manifesto - that's the one that is unaffordable.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Right, so it's unacceptable to be a Tory Councillor and be a Tory in your eyes but worse than that it's wrong to be fat, baldy and wear an 'orange' half zip top!      I suppose if he was English as well you would have  spontaneously combusted.[/QUOTE

Councillor's are not allowed in the audience......so we are told

Just had my Scots Tory Party GE leaflet delivered
Quick summary of contents.

Independence
Independence
SNP BAaaaad
Independence 
Independence.

It is a GE, nothing to do with Independence, have the Scots Tories nothing to offer other than banging on eternally about Independence.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Right, so it's unacceptable to be a Tory Councillor and be a Tory in your eyes but worse than that it's wrong to be fat, baldy and wear an 'orange' half zip top!      I suppose if he was English as well you would have  spontaneously combusted.
		
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I'm not 100% sure that you have got the point of DfT mentioning the 'orange' half zip top. Maybe you have...


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Isn't that going to the Â£60bn set aside for mitigating short term costs of leaving?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chancellors-60bn-brexit-fighting-fund-n7hmvzptq

Which is a pity - as that amount of money would fund a fair bit of the Labour manifesto - that's the one that is unaffordable.
		
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One of my major concerns with the Labour manifesto is the strong hint at going down the route of PFI's again. Having experienced PFI's from both sides in the NHS - NO!!!!! Let's not forget, it was a Labour govt that signed up to the first tranche of 10 PFI funded hospitals. How on earth they are legal just beggars belief.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			One of my major concerns with the Labour manifesto is the strong hint at going down the route of PFI's again. Having experienced PFI's from both sides in the NHS - NO!!!!! Let's not forget, it was a Labour govt that signed up to the first tranche of 10 PFI funded hospitals. How on earth they are legal just beggars belief.
		
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I think serious lessons to be learned from PFIs.  So if any party ever chose to go down that route again I would expect their to be very significant scrutiny on the PFI deals themselves so we don't get in the financial bind we find ourselves in with these deals.

That said - what state our hospitals were it not for PFI funding...maybe we had little choice but to agree to these deals were we not to see hospitals falling down around our ears.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

https://ayerightradio.wordpress.com/2017/05/12/ruth-davidson-car-crash-interview-radio-five-live/

Ruthie getting totally sandbagged on Radio 5.
Trying to defend the indefensible again
Tough listen if you are a Tory.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not 100% sure that you have got the point of DfT mentioning the 'orange' half zip top. Maybe you have...
		
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Yes, strange how those QT plants do seem to like their orange tops.

Perhaps the ex Bullingdon Boy personally vets them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, strange how those QT plants do seem to like their orange tops.

Perhaps the ex Bullingdon Boy personally vets them.
		
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Hopefully by now the (rather sad) significance of the orange tops is well understood by all on here,


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hopefully by now the (rather sad) significance of the orange tops is well understood by all on here,
		
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Its pretty sad that he had to put it in the post but just goes to show what thoughts go through his head and I thought that was mostly down to a minority hooligan Scottish football supporters.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hopefully by now the (rather sad) significance of the orange tops is well understood by all on here,
		
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It might be second nature for those that experienced first hand but I would put money on it that most didn't have clue nor understand how brutal it can be.

I grew up in Ireland in the 70's but it even went over my head today...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Its pretty sad that *he* had to put it in the post but just goes to show what thoughts go through his head and I thought that was mostly down to a minority hooligan Scottish football supporters.
		
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You talking about me?  Or DfT (though DfT can well speak for himself).  On that you believe that it is mostly limited to a minority of hooligan 'Scottish' football supporters - I wish your belief was indeed the case.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not 100% sure that you have got the point of DfT mentioning the 'orange' half zip top. Maybe you have...
		
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Two out of three in the last Scottish QT's.........probably just coincidence


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You talking about me?  Or DfT (though DfT can well speak for himself).  On that you believe that it is mostly limited to a minority of hooligan 'Scottish' football supporters - I wish your belief was indeed the case.[/QUOTE

..and so do I.
		
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## ger147 (May 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You talking about me?  Or DfT (though DfT can well speak for himself).  On that you believe that it is mostly limited to a minority of hooligan 'Scottish' football supporters - I wish your belief was indeed the case.[/QUOTE

..and so do I.
		
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I didn't see QT so apologies for being in the dark, but what is the point you are trying to make about someone wearing an orange top?
		
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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You talking about me?  Or DfT (though DfT can well speak for himself).  On that you believe that it is mostly limited to a minority of hooligan 'Scottish' football supporters - I wish your belief was indeed the case.
		
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I'm not talking about you just clearing up which side of the fence Doon on and now it's very clear. Not nice to see that sectarianism is a live and well in a golf forum.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2017)

Any sectarianism or mentions of or accusations  of sectarianism stops now please ,  NOT A REQUEST!!



Ok lets cut through the squabbling here, without Party Bias,  mention of Brexit or independence or Trumpety Trump

What policies would you like to see that would make a difference to people?
How would you fund them?

Just a couple of key ones that you feel are important

Over to you ....


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not talking about you just clearing up which side of the fence Doon on and now it's very clear. Not nice to see that sectarianism is a live and well in a golf forum.
		
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It almost borders on paranoia when some sitting in an orange top engenders a reaction. Some people need to rise above it and let it go.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What policies would you like to see that would make a difference to people?
How would you fund them?

Just a couple of key ones that you feel are important

Over to you ....
		
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Free lolly Friday through the hot summer months. Preferably a white chocolate Magnum - other lollies are available


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## PhilTheFragger (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Free lolly Friday through the hot summer months. Preferably a white chocolate Magnum - other lollies are available
		
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Thought you'd be after a free pedicure x


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## ger147 (May 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Free lolly Friday through the hot summer months. Preferably a white chocolate Magnum - other lollies are available
		
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Solero for me please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not talking about you just clearing up which side of the fence Doon on and now it's very clear. Not nice to see that sectarianism is a live and well in a golf forum.
		
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I made an observation.  I was brought up to keep well out of the problem.  My parents would not let me support either main Glasgow team because of the problem- so proudly I support St Johnstone - which has always been a great escape when confronted by 'the question'.

And btw it is not sectarian to raise or discuss an aspect of Scottish political life that affects political opinion and how some people vote.  It is an aspect that is hopefully dying out - but it is something that nonetheless remains, and that in parts of Scotland will impact the outcome of the coming GE in some constituencies.  See for instance Donald Findlay QC.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Anyway...

Taxation - do you believe a Conservative Government will not raise income tax for the period 2017-2022?   

Will the fixed term Parliament Act be rescinded?   

Should a Tory Government seek a further mandate from the electorate in a Sept 2019 GE if the outcome of the Brexit negotiations is _No Deal_, and the government finds itself faced with significant hole in it's budget and has to make the case for tax increases to fill the fiscal hole.

All these and many more will most probably remain unanswered.


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## jp5 (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All these and many more will most probably remain unanswered.
		
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Yeah but fox hunting, so there's that.


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## Old Skier (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I made an observation.  I was brought up to keep well out of the problem.  My parents would not let me support either main Glasgow team because of the problem- so proudly I support St Johnstone - which has always been a great escape when confronted by 'the question'.

And btw it is not sectarian to raise or discuss an aspect of Scottish political life that affects political opinion and how some people vote.  It is an aspect that is hopefully dying out - but it is something that nonetheless remains, and that in parts of Scotland will impact the outcome of the coming GE in some constituencies.  See for instance Donald Findlay QC.
		
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Unfortunately I after PTF post I think it would be inappropriate to respond.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway...

Taxation - do you believe a Conservative Government will not raise income tax for the period 2017-2022?   

Will the fixed term Parliament Act be rescinded?   

Should a Tory Government seek a further mandate from the electorate in a Sept 2019 GE if the outcome of the Brexit negotiations is _No Deal_, and the government finds itself faced with significant hole in it's budget and has to make the case for tax increases to fill the fiscal hole.

All these and many more will most probably remain unanswered.
		
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A/ They may not but they will increase taxation through other means so it is all semantics.

B/ Yes, it is pointless, as has been shown. Another bit of rubbish from DC, perhaps the least memorable PM of the modern era

C/ No. We know now that there may not be a deal. We elect politicians to govern, get on with it. If there is a shortfall in taxation they will fill the gap by hammering one group or another. Nothing new there.

D/ I had no idea what the heck the issue was before but I am assuming it is classed under "local issues that are best left well alone" Following PTF comment I shall remain in blissful ignorance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A/ They may not but they will increase taxation through other means so it is all semantics.

B/ Yes, it is pointless, as has been shown. Another bit of rubbish from DC, perhaps the least memorable PM of the modern era

C/ No. We know now that there may not be a deal. We elect politicians to govern, get on with it. If there is a shortfall in taxation they will fill the gap by hammering one group or another. Nothing new there.

D/ I had no idea what the heck the issue was before but I am assuming it is classed under "local issues that are best left well alone" Following PTF comment I shall remain in blissful ignorance.
		
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On D) just Google David Findlay QC and think of him being Tango'd.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2017)

There is a worry in the Scots Tory camp that Ruth Davidsons GE message will confuse some of their elderly voters and they will write 'No' on the voting form instead of the customary X.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 12, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a worry in the Scots Tory camp that Ruth Davidsons GE message will confuse some of their elderly voters and they will write 'No' on the voting form instead of the customary X.
		
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wot - you mean like that train of thought that some of the good folks of Feegie Park voted for the wrong man - as there were Tory and Independent candidates with the same name - the Tory being John McIntyre; the Independent being John G McIntyre  But I don't believe that could actually be the case...then again - Feegie Park - Tory???


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway...

Taxation - do you believe a Conservative Government will not raise income tax for the period 2017-2022?   

Will the fixed term Parliament Act be rescinded?   

Should a Tory Government seek a further mandate from the electorate in a Sept 2019 GE if the outcome of the Brexit negotiations is _No Deal_, and the government finds itself faced with significant hole in it's budget and has to make the case for tax increases to fill the fiscal hole.

All these and many more will most probably remain unanswered.
		
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a) No, raising tax should be something any Government may do where considered absolutely necessary but only as a last resort.

b)Not sure, cant see the problem. As we have just witnessed, it has a get out clause if enough MPs agree.

c)To the first part of the question : 'No' There is no need for further mandates, as long as we leave the EU the mandate has been enacted.   The second part of that question was asked in the first question you made.

d) Seems a silly comment.


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## User62651 (May 13, 2017)

Good piece from The New York Times, nail on head. May rumbled internationally, but never mind ... stong and stable strong and stable blah blah blah. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/...or-a-one-party-state.html?mwrsm=Facebook&_r=0


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## Hacker Khan (May 13, 2017)

It is pretty clear that the Tory strategy is to say as little as possible about policies unless it is to do with Brexit. Can't say I blame them as as the phrase goes, it is theirs to lose.  But it is a bit depressing as once they get in again they will feel they have a mandate to reek all sorts of havoc on the public sector, state schools, the NHS and anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves needing a bit of assistance, and the public are sleepwalking into letting them. 

I'd like to think, especially in the new supposed golden era of isolationism,  the Uk deserves a better quality of leader and opposition.  But it seems not.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Good piece from The New York Times, nail on head. May rumbled internationally, but never mind ... stong and stable strong and stable blah blah blah. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/...or-a-one-party-state.html?mwrsm=Facebook&_r=0

Click to expand...

It's good for you as it agrees with your blinkered opinion.  It's just the opinion of Mr William Davies, nothing else.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			It is pretty clear that the Tory strategy is to say as little as possible about policies unless it is to do with Brexit. Can't say I blame them as as the phrase goes, it is theirs to lose.  But it is a bit depressing as once they get in again they will feel they have a mandate to reek all sorts of havoc on the public sector, state schools, the NHS and anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves needing a bit of assistance, and the public are sleepwalking into letting them. 

I'd like to think, especially in the new golden era of isolationism,  *the Uk deserves a better quality of leader and opposition.  But it seems not*.
		
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Do you mean Corbyn and his motley crew. Do us a favor and get real !

"have a mandate to reek all sorts of havoc on the public sector, state  schools, the NHS and anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves  needing a bit of assistance"    Oh dear!  Haaa   Haaaaaaaaaa, Just a minute, Haaaaaaaaaa, my sides are splitting, Oh dear, Oh deary me. :rofl:


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## User62651 (May 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			It's good for you as it agrees with your blinkered opinion.  It's just the opinion of Mr William Davies, nothing else.  

Click to expand...

Here's another, your glorious leader at her hypocritical best - enjoy  
https://www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/videos/10154786770981636/?pnref=story

Squirming just a little yet..... unblinkered man?


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2017)

Playing Devil's advocate here but isn't Theresa May putting her personal opinions to one side and doing what the majority wanted when they voted to leave the EU?


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## MarkE (May 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Playing Devil's advocate here but isn't Theresa May putting her personal opinions to one side and doing what the majority wanted when they voted to leave the EU?
		
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Yes, but that dos'nt sit well with remainers who insist we did'nt really know what we were voting for. We'll see if the 17 million of us that voted for brexit change their minds, now we've had a while to think about it. Or whether we all vote vote Tory so May can carry it through. If there is such a backlash against brexit (other than in the minds of rabid remainers), this is where we will see it.


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## User62651 (May 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Playing Devil's advocate here but isn't Theresa May putting her personal opinions to one side and doing what the majority wanted when they voted to leave the EU?
		
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She is but many Brexiters would have preferred a leave advocate for PM, would have avoided that unfortunate video and perhaps hers is a reaction to that situation. She is supposed to represent everyone, 52/48 and only 2 of 4 UK countries voting leave is not 'the will of the people'. Just seems out of her depth on so many levels, much of her rhetoric sounds inexperienced, divisive and naive.
She's going to win handsomely come June 8th, we all know that so I hope once that's over she settles into the role of PM better. Tough tough job she has on her hands but she needs to be inclusive of all Britons as best she can, she's becoming more divisive since she took power, hope that changes. Dont think calling GE has helped, was no need really......imho


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			She is but many Brexiters would have preferred a leave advocate for PM, would have avoided that unfortunate video and perhaps hers is a reaction to that situation. She is supposed to represent everyone, 52/48 and only 2 of 4 UK countries voting leave is not 'the will of the people'. Just seems out of her depth on so many levels, much of her rhetoric sounds inexperienced, divisive and naive.
She's going to win handsomely come June 8th, we all know that so I hope once that's over she settles into the role of PM better. Tough tough job she has on her hands but she needs to be inclusive of all Britons as best she can, she's becoming more divisive since she took power, hope that changes. Dont think calling GE has helped, was no need really......imho
		
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She has accepted the will of the majority and is committed to carrying out the result.  Losers should accept they lost and put their differences behind them just like she has.   It's somehow a very sad reflection of our society the way we continue to get all this complaining from those who didn't win.  This talk of 2 out of 4 countries is also fiddling with reality, we all know it was a referendum for the UK, not a regional one, what people voted locally is nothing to do with the result, that was always going to be about numbers.  I know full well that if the vote had gone the other way as was predicted and any country had voted against the overall result then there would not be this talk of mandates and unfairness.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 13, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Playing Devil's advocate here but isn't Theresa May putting her personal opinions to one side and doing what the majority wanted when they voted to leave the EU?
		
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Naw............ she is just another deluded political opportunist, changing what she actually believes in to gain personal power.


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2017)

I think calling an election is turning out to be a master stroke, but not for what I thought was the original reason, i,e, hitting Labour when they are at their weakest since the early 80's. It's resulted in Labour declaring their Brexit position in so many areas, and in pretty much all of them Labour are going for the faintest of Brexits.

There's a strong possibility that Labour's stance will drive their centre-ist, hard Brexit voters across to the Tories. No doubt some Tories will vote with Remain in mind, but will they vote Labour or LibDem or...?

Without the election there was always the possibility of the deal brought back to Parliament might struggle, especially as we now know what Labour are aiming for. But with a large majority any Bill, Brexit or otherwise will sail through.


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw............ she is just another deluded political opportunist, changing what she actually believes in to gain personal power.
		
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Are you on about May or Sturgeon?..........................or both?


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## User62651 (May 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			She has accepted the will of the majority and is committed to carrying out the result.  Losers should accept they lost and put their differences behind them just like she has.   It's somehow a very sad reflection of our society the way we continue to get all this complaining from those who didn't win.  This talk of 2 out of 4 countries is also fiddling with reality, we all know it was a referendum for the UK, not a regional one, what people voted locally is nothing to do with the result, that was always going to be about numbers.  I know full well that if the vote had gone the other way as was predicted and any country had voted against the overall result then there would not be this talk of mandates and unfairness.
		
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I understand your viewpoint but opposition in life is part and parcel, when you decide you divide. 
When Tony Blair won in 1997 I doubt you gave up being a Tory and opposed much of what they brought in? I wouldn't expect you to change views.
If the EU ref vote had gone remain there would have been no or very little change/upheaval unlike now so it's quite different in terms of people accepting - you know what it's like in the EU, we have no idea what its like out, nothing was determined before the vote, only spin from wannabee PMs and Farage. 

A healthy opposition is no bad thing, you have to agree with that at least?

There is no greater good from us all 'getting behind Brexit', it's happening we know that and the cliff edge is looming - maybe we'll have wings, maybe we wont.

Anyway we're going round in circles.....again

I've gotta get off this part of the forum.:angry:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 13, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Are you on about May or Sturgeon?..........................or both?
		
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I would have thought it was pretty obvious who I was on about from the thread I was replying to


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would have thought it was pretty obvious who I was on about from the thread I was replying to

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Maybe a winky smilie would have shown it was a joke. Seriously though, they're both liars.


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			She is supposed to represent everyone, 52/48 and only 2 of 4 UK countries voting leave is not 'the will of the people'.
		
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When does the "will of the majority" become the "will of the people"?


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I understand your viewpoint but opposition in life is part and parcel, when you decide you divide. 
When Tony Blair won in 1997 I doubt you gave up being a Tory and opposed much of what they brought in? I wouldn't expect you to change views.
If the EU ref vote had gone remain there would have been no or very little change/upheaval unlike now so it's quite different in terms of people accepting - you know what it's like in the EU, we have no idea what its like out, nothing was determined before the vote, only spin from wannabee PMs and Farage. 

A healthy opposition is no bad thing, you have to agree with that at least?

There is no greater good from us all 'getting behind Brexit', it's happening we know that and the cliff edge is looming - maybe we'll have wings, maybe we wont.

Anyway we're going round in circles.....again

I've gotta get off this part of the forum.:angry:
		
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I actually voted twice for Tony Blair.  

If the vote had gone remain I would have accepted it and shut up.  Honestly I would, experience has taught me not to dwell on the inevitable.

'Cliff edge' is an emotional and exaggerated interpretation of the reality regarding Brexit.  The UK will not fall off the edge of a precipice, we are quite able to hold our own and it would be foolish to say that we will not have a number of obstacles to maneuver and it will take time for the results to emanate but  IMHO we and our offspring will benefit greatly from us leaving the EU.  

Don't go, it's just a debate.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2017)

Scots Tories seem to have changed their previous stance that free prescriptions would kill patients.
Another Flip flop.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2017)

MarkE said:



*Yes, but that dos'nt sit well with remainers who insist we did'nt really know what we were voting for.* We'll see if the 17 million of us that voted for brexit change their minds, now we've had a while to think about it. Or whether we all vote vote Tory so May can carry it through. If there is such a backlash against brexit (other than in the minds of rabid remainers), this is where we will see it.
		
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Because you didn't - WE didn't.  If we knew why the debate about what Brexit will look like (other than out of the EU) and the refusal of the government to tell us what they want to achieve.  If we knew what we were voting for beyond leaving the EU then the government wouldn't need to keep telling us that they can't tell us their objectives for Brexit as that would be revealing our hand.

'Rabid Remainers'? come on...if I called out Loony Leavers I'd be castigated for doing so...but to heck with it - it is quite clear that Loony Leavers just can't shut up about pretending they know what Brexit will look like and that somehow it will be Rabid Remainers fault if it goes wrong.  Oh stop me laughing as my sides are hurting....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I think calling an election is turning out to be a master stroke, but not for what I thought was the original reason, i,e, hitting Labour when they are at their weakest since the early 80's. It's resulted in Labour declaring their Brexit position in so many areas, and in pretty much all of them Labour are going for the faintest of Brexits.

There's a strong possibility that Labour's stance will drive their centre-ist, hard Brexit voters across to the Tories. No doubt some Tories will vote with Remain in mind, but will they vote Labour or LibDem or...?

Without the election there was always the possibility of the deal brought back to Parliament might struggle, especially as we now know what Labour are aiming for. But with a large majority any Bill, Brexit or otherwise will sail through.
		
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A mastertroke with a rationale that is a lie.  Fair enough - if that's the sort of straight talking we are to expect from our PM


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



*She has accepted the will of the majority and is committed to carrying out the result*.  Losers should accept they lost and put their differences behind them just like she has.   It's somehow a very sad reflection of our society the way we continue to get all this complaining from those who didn't win.  This talk of 2 out of 4 countries is also fiddling with reality, we all know it was a referendum for the UK, not a regional one, what people voted locally is nothing to do with the result, that was always going to be about numbers.  I know full well that if the vote had gone the other way as was predicted and any country had voted against the overall result then there would not be this talk of mandates and unfairness.
		
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She is either a liar or is totally unprincipled in respect of Brexit and cares little more than for herself and her party.  You can't say it would be terrible for the UK to leave the EU one minute, and then the next be almost willing the most severe separation.  You just can't.  Nothing to do with enacting the will of the people.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2017)

How can either side know what Brexit will be like. Neither side knows what the other will concede or stick on in the negotiations?

Brexit, and many of the desires expressed are aspirational and are ambitions for the UK by the Brexiteers.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She is either a liar or is totally unprincipled in respect of Brexit and cares little more than for herself and her party.  You can't say it would be terrible for the UK to leave the EU one minute, and then the next be almost willing the most severe separation.  You just can't.  Nothing to do with enacting the will of the people.
		
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I read a political autobiography many years ago about an ex-PM. In it he said one of the hardest things for any leading politician to do is to put aside their personal opinions and to reflect the wishes of the people. May may have been a Remainer in the run up to the referendum, and following the party whip, but I don't expect her to do anything other than what she is doing now. In fact, I'd be very disappointed in her if she did any different. However, if she'd become a backbencher I would expect her to have carried being a Remainer.

I'm surprised you don't understand that concept, or does it not satisfy your understanding of senior management. On a personal level, you must have enacted company policy you disagreed with...


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She is either a liar or is totally unprincipled in respect of Brexit and cares little more than for herself and her party.  You can't say it would be terrible for the UK to leave the EU one minute, and then the next be almost willing the most severe separation.  You just can't.  Nothing to do with enacting the will of the people.
		
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You are completely wrong here.  During the referendum she was very quiet and said very little about Brexit.  She was a senior cabinet member and as such has to abide by collective responsibility.   After the vote she has accepted the majority will of the people which is the right thing to do, if she didn't she should return to the back benches to fester over the vote.  Shes not like you, you are rabid in your hatred for people with a different view, you will not or can not accept your view lost and now you should accept it.   I have voted for the losing side in many elections but I didnt spend most of my waking hours ranting on about it.    Calling her a 'Liar' is wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She is either a liar or is totally unprincipled in respect of Brexit and cares little more than for herself and her party.  You can't say it would be terrible for the UK to leave the EU one minute, and then the next be almost willing the most severe separation.  You just can't.  Nothing to do with enacting the will of the people.
		
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Quite right sir, the other unanswered question is, why didthe Tories elect am unprincipled  'Stay' minister as PM.
That must be against the will of the people.


[Or was it that all of the other leave candidates for PM were total numpties]


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## MarkE (May 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because you didn't - WE didn't.  If we knew why the debate about what Brexit will look like (other than out of the EU) and the refusal of the government to tell us what they want to achieve.  If we knew what we were voting for beyond leaving the EU then the government wouldn't need to keep telling us that they can't tell us their objectives for Brexit as that would be revealing our hand.

'Rabid Remainers'? come on...if I called out Loony Leavers I'd be castigated for doing so...but to heck with it - it is quite clear that Loony Leavers just can't shut up about pretending they know what Brexit will look like and that somehow it will be Rabid Remainers fault if it goes wrong.  Oh stop me laughing as my sides are hurting....
		
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Oh, we've been called much much worse since the referendum (you know the usual Thick, Uneducated, Racist morons, that sort of thing). You may not have known what you were voting for (in which case you should'nt have voted), but I did. I voted what is now popularly known as a 'hard brexit' and hope that's what we get. :thup:


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A mastertroke with a rationale that is a lie.  Fair enough - if that's the sort of straight talking we are to expect from our PM
		
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You seem to completely miss the point I made in an earlier post that all PM's lie, and I included examples of the last 4 PM's and opposition party leaders. If you're going to go expecting a soul's bared approach from our leaders you will be continually disappointed.

Or is it you only want to highlight her lie as it suits your political stance?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

Craig Murray really has an eye for the lie

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/05/giving-up-on-honesty/.

BTW Emily Thornbury is fast rising as a decent politician.
She certainly put Fallon in his nasty wee box.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Craig Murray really has an eye for the lie

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/05/giving-up-on-honesty/.

.
		
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Obviously not keen on clicking links at the moment but I presume this is about the Scottish First Minister and her lies on the Fisheries issue.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Craig Murray really has an eye for the lie

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/05/giving-up-on-honesty/.

BTW Emily Thornbury is fast rising as a decent politician.
She certainly put Fallon in his nasty wee box.
		
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Just to show that spin comes in all political colours
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-nuclear-gaffe-tells-aides-ve-seen-films.html

Yes its the Daily Mail, but Ms Thornberry is almost as gaff prone as Ms Abbott


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## Hacker Khan (May 15, 2017)

It's just typical DM scare mongering, they have a quota that they have to fill in the run up to the election. 

_A witness who heard Ms Thornberryâ€™s comment said: â€˜The room went quiet. Everyone was silently asking themselves, â€œHas our candidate to be the next Labour Defence Secretary just said she doesnâ€™t know the code for a nuclear war?â€ â€™
_
Really?? Has the paper any proof whatsoever that a) that is what anyone was thinking and b) everyone was thinking it. Silently?? 

Of course they were not, but the DM has done its job as it has sewn the perception that suddenly turns into fact that this is what happened.


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## drdel (May 15, 2017)

I thought the thread was about the GE not just bickering about the PM.

A few in those constituencies will get to vote for the PM or for JC for the rest of us we can chose the candidate/party we believe is most representative of our views.

Calling the PM and/or JC liars is just so much hot air its juvenile - they're just the figure heads. 

Any chance the issues might be discussed?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's just typical DM scare mongering, they have a quota that they have to fill in the run up to the election. 

_A witness who heard Ms Thornberryâ€™s comment said: â€˜The room went quiet. Everyone was silently asking themselves, â€œHas our candidate to be the next Labour Defence Secretary just said she doesnâ€™t know the code for a nuclear war?â€ â€™
_
Really?? Has the paper any proof whatsoever that a) that is what anyone was thinking and b) everyone was thinking it. Silently?? 

Of course they were not, but the DM has done its job as it has sewn the perception that suddenly turns into fact that this is what happened. 



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ah....but it was a witness not an 'unnamed source'.

The Craig Murray piece was also about the Tories trumpeting a 'win' for a councillor in Glasgow when he actually came 4th in the candidates ranking and only 'won' his seat at the 10th voting stage.
Then the Tory 'triumph' in 'winning in Scotland' by taking 22.5% of the votes.
I would imagine that roughly 10% of those Tory votes were the fag end of the Scottish Labour 'staunch' unionists voters finally realising that their party was a dead parrot.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

drdel said:



			I thought the thread was about the GE not just bickering about the PM.

A few in those constituencies will get to vote for the PM or for JC for the rest of us we can chose the candidate/party we believe is most representative of our views.

Calling the PM and/or JC liars is just so much hot air its juvenile - they're just the figure heads. 

Any chance the issues might be discussed?
		
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Strange you should say that as yet another Tory 'general election' leaflet is dropped through my letter box.
Guess what it is all about.....Say no to Scottish Independence


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## User62651 (May 15, 2017)

Not a fan of party political broadcasts per se and not pushing any agenda but I did chuckle a little at the LibDem one they aired up here last week, kinda summed up politics over the last 3 or 4 years for many of us and was quite a good production I thought -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...broadcasts-liberal-democrats-general-election


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strange you should say that as yet another Tory 'general election' leaflet is dropped through my letter box.
Guess what it is all about.....Say no to Scottish Independence

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Fair enough.   Someone knows what's best for you.


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## IanM (May 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough.   Someone knows what's best for you.
		
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..are you sure it isn't reverse psychology?    Tory tells Scotland to do one thing, they'll do the other ...... Waiting to see Wee Nicola march oot to "Ode to Joy!"


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strange you should say that as yet another Tory 'general election' leaflet is dropped through my letter box.
Guess what it is all about.....Say no to Scottish Independence

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And what is wrong with that? THE SNP's manifesto, and reason for life, has always been independence. A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Union. Is it that hard for you to understand, or is it that you are looking for every little thing and twisting some sort of spin on to it, e.g. this example you've posted?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And what is wrong with that? THE SNP's manifesto, and reason for life, has always been independence. A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Union. Is it that hard for you to understand, or is it that you are looking for every little thing and twisting some sort of spin on to it, e.g. this example you've posted?
		
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No 
I just have a good old laugh at the minority Scottish parties continually banging on a great deal more about the SNP continually banging on about independence.


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## chrisd (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No 
I just have a good old laugh at the minority Scottish parties continually banging on a great deal more about the SNP continually banging on about independence.
		
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When they get independence will they disappear like UKIP?


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No 
I just have a good old laugh at the minority Scottish parties continually banging on a great deal more about the SNP continually banging on about independence.
		
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Is it a bad thing for any party to highlight the good and the bad. Or don't you want the truth colouring the landscape. Remind us of how much the lauded, rightly so, Scottish education system has fallen in recent years. 

The SNP have some great, caring policies but to quote others, they need to get on with the day job. And, again, the stats are all out there about how much time the SNP spends talking about independence and how much time is spent on the problems that are in front of the Scottish people NOW!

Education and the Scottish NHS fall under the remit of the Scottish Parliament. How about explaining why the SNP blame Westminster for a drop in funding when its the SNP's responsibility to allocate the funding?

Oh but we daren't talk about the failings of the precious SNP because that would be unfair to the teeny weeny party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is it a bad thing for any party to highlight the good and the bad. Or don't you want the truth colouring the landscape. Remind us of how much the lauded, rightly so, Scottish education system has fallen in recent years. 

The SNP have some great, caring policies but to quote others, they need to get on with the day job. And, again, the stats are all out there about how much time the SNP spends talking about independence and how much time is spent on the problems that are in front of the Scottish people NOW!

Education and the Scottish NHS fall under the remit of the Scottish Parliament. How about explaining why the SNP blame Westminster for a drop in funding when its the SNP's responsibility to allocate the funding?

Oh but we daren't talk about the failings of the precious SNP because that would be unfair to the teeny weeny party.
		
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The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I read a political autobiography many years ago about an ex-PM. In it he said one of the hardest things for any leading politician to do is to put aside their personal opinions and to reflect the wishes of the people. May may have been a Remainer in the run up to the referendum, and following the party whip, but I don't expect her to do anything other than what she is doing now. In fact, I'd be very disappointed in her if she did any different. However, if she'd become a backbencher I would expect her to have carried being a Remainer.

I'm surprised you don't understand that concept, or does it not satisfy your understanding of senior management. On a personal level, you must have enacted company policy you disagreed with...
		
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Yes I do comply with company policy I have to adhere to.  The point is that I do not have a choice.  Not only does Mauy have a choice - she is driving the policy.  And for Brexit the policy does not NEED to be a clean and absolute severing of ties with the EU and it's associated governance bodies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are completely wrong here. * During the referendum she was very quiet and said very little about Brexit.  *She was a senior cabinet member and as such has to abide by collective responsibility.   After the vote she has accepted the majority will of the people which is the right thing to do, if she didn't she should return to the back benches to fester over the vote.  Shes not like you, you are rabid in your hatred for people with a different view, you will not or can not accept your view lost and now you should accept it.   I have voted for the losing side in many elections but I didnt spend most of my waking hours ranting on about it.    Calling her a 'Liar' is wrong.
		
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I am completely wrong?  You are having a laugh - and you do make good jokes.

You know very well that, regardless of how much she said prior to the vote, she was ABSOLUTELY 100% against Leaving - no ifs, no buts, no caveats.  May was 100% against Leaving and very clear about the damage that the UK would sustain.  What is it about that that you deny?  

And to compare this Referendum as if it were a GE - something that can be changed in 4-5 years time is fatuous - and you know it.  You know *exactly *why those who voted to Remain are concerned and will not shut up.  Because the Great British Public (whose will you venerate unless it might change it's mind) will not be able to change it's decision 5 yrs down the line - we are likely stuck with the decision for many decades. 

And as an aside - I am not rabid and I hate no-body. Please stop using such inflammatory language directed at me as an individual.  You are showing yourself up - you should be embarrassed and ashamed.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.
		
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Well, I've just split my sides laughing at that response. Its the Labour and Tories fault that the SNP haven't got the time run the country... do you honestly believe that? That is so laughable in the extreme. 

So maybe its all the other parties fault that the Tories have called an election... its like a sketch from Monty Python's Life of Brian when the suicide squad kill themselves and say "that showed 'em."

Well, if you believe that there's no arguing with you... crikey, you need some serious counselling if you believe that.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.
		
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Are you honestly saying this, seriously?


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## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.
		
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oo:

They could, of course, very quickly end that line of questioning and get back to wrecking our education system.


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## DCB (May 15, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



oo:

They could, of course, very quickly end that line of questioning and get back to wrecking our education system.
		
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If there's anything left to be wrecked


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## Lord Tyrion (May 15, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Are you honestly saying this, seriously?
		
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I sprayed tea over my keyboard when I read the original comment. Nicola is to Scottish independence what Farage was to leaving the EU. It is 90% of her comments. SNP supporters can't complain when others start to take her on about the same subject. Well, they can but they will look very silly. Now to find some dry wipes to sort this keyboard out.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I sprayed tea over my keyboard when I read the original comment. Nicola is to Scottish independence what Farage was to leaving the EU. It is 90% of her comments. SNP supporters can't complain when others start to take her on about the same subject. Well, they can but they will look very silly. Now to find some dry wipes to sort this keyboard out.
		
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It certainly goes a long way to explaining his mindset in other political threads...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It certainly goes a long way to explaining his mindset in other political threads...
		
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If this is aimed at me I'm not sure about the mindset.  

And in case it missed anyone - it is an observation or accusation I hear or read often - that the opposition parties talk about Indyref2 as much as the SNP.  I'm not making that up - I'm just repeating what I have seen and heard,  it may or may not be true.  Quizzing the SNP over Independence and Indyref2 is fine as that's what the SNP is about.  They need to be pressed on it.  But don't complain about the SNP then talking Indyref2 in response to questions from the opposition and at the same time criticise them for not spending more time in the governing of the country.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If this is aimed at me I'm not sure about the mindset.  

And in case it missed anyone - it is an observation or accusation I hear or read often - that the opposition parties talk about Indyref2 as much as the SNP.  I'm not making that up - I'm just repeating what I have seen and heard,  it may or may not be true.  Quizzing the SNP over Independence and Indyref2 is fine as that's what the SNP is about.  They need to be pressed on it.  But don't complain about the SNP then talking Indyref2 in response to questions from the opposition and at the same time criticise them for not spending more time in the governing of the country.
		
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Of course it is. Now come and have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

DCB said:



			If there's anything left to be wrecked 

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Well the SNP have totally wrecked  Scottish Labour, Tory and LiebDems parties......... is that not enough for you.
56 seats out of 59 remember.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

chrisd said:



			When they get independence will they disappear like UKIP?
		
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You could be right.
On Thursdays QT Emily Thornberry looked totally stumped for a reply to the young woman saying.

'I would love to vote for you [Labour] but I want Independence for Scotland, so I reluctantly vote for the SNP.'

I am sure she is not alone.
Mind you it is not helped that SLab have an even less electable leader than the UK Labour Party do.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It certainly goes a long way to explaining his mindset in other political threads...
		
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Hey steady on, I know you watch Scottish FMQ and other Holyrood bits so you must know that there is an element of truth about Hogan's comment.
The others on here who do not follow Holyrood streaming  .......well its just the usual anti Scots gum bumping exercise.:angry:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strange you should say that as yet another Tory 'general election' leaflet is dropped through my letter box.
Guess what it is all about.....*Say no to Scottish Independence*

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Maybe the SNP should just ignore it as it is a waste of their governing time responding to the Tories talking about Independence.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You could be right.
On Thursdays QT Emily Thornberry looked totally stumped for a reply to the young woman saying.

'I would love to vote for you [Labour] but I want Independence for Scotland, so I reluctantly vote for the SNP.'

I am sure she is not alone.
Mind you it is not helped that SLab have an even less electable leader than the UK Labour Party do.
		
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How can you possibly say such a thing about The Kezia - though she does struggle to make an impact - she can't even claim to be the only LBGTQ party leader in Scotland, damn.

Actually I don't mind Kezia or Ruthie at all, and think it is a true sign of progressive politics when three of the leaders of the main political parties in Scotland are women, and three are members of the LGBTQ community (though not the same three  )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 15, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Of course it is. Now come and have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.
		
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thankyou - I'm just sitting down with Mrs SiLH to have a tea and a biscuit as she had some good news this pm and the news is a great relief to us both.  Heartfelt thanks are due to the NHS for responding to her concerns so quickly


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## FairwayDodger (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well the SNP have totally wrecked  Scottish Labour, Tory and LiebDems parties......... is that not enough for you.
56 seats out of 59 remember.
		
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Hmm I suspect that one legacy of the SNP will be a revived Tory party in Scotland.


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.
		
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Now I know your on here just having a laugh


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## Old Skier (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well the SNP have totally wrecked  Scottish Labour, Tory and LiebDems parties......... is that not enough for you.
56 seats out of 59 remember.
		
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With the current level of educational standards up there it seems they are taking advantage of the poor wee illiterates


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## Lord Tyrion (May 15, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How can you possibly say such a thing about The Kezia - though she does struggle to make an impact - she can't even claim to be the only LBGTQ party leader in Scotland, damn.

Actually I don't mind Kezia or Ruthie at all, and think it is a true sign of progressive politics when three of the leaders of the main political parties in Scotland are women, and three are members of the LGBTQ community (though not the same three  )
		
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What does the Q stand for? I'm pretty sure I know but if it is what I think then that was surely covered already by LG. Answers please.


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What does the Q stand for? I'm pretty sure I know but if it is what I think then that was surely covered already by LG. Answers please.
		
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This is my take on it:

[video=youtube;I5tAYnex6fY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5tAYnex6fY[/video]


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Well the SNP have totally wrecked  Scottish Labour, Tory and LiebDems parties......... is that not enough for you.*
56 seats out of 59 remember.
		
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Dont forget they wrecked Scotland as well


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## Doon frae Troon (May 15, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont forget they wrecked Scotland as well 

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In your wee head maybees.:lol:
Compared to what is going on in the rest of the UK I think we are just fine.

Interesting to see the Westminster parties are trying to steal the SNP policies.
I don't suppose you have noticed.


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In your wee head maybees.:lol:
Compared to what is going on in the rest of the UK I think we are just fine.

Interesting to see the Westminster parties are trying to steal the SNP policies.
I don't suppose you have noticed.
		
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They will probably stay clear of their education and you are a prime example of why


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP spend too much time responding to questions from wee Ruthie and Kezia about Indyref2 and indepedence in general.  Maybe if Labour and the Tories (especially) in Scotland would shut up about it, the SNP could get on with sorting Scottish Education.
		
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Can we use your same reasoning if Brexit turns out to be a disaster? It's not the Tories or the negotiators fault, it's the fault of Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems, you and others like you who keep asking too many questions about it. Maybe if you all shut up about it the Tories would be able to get on with sorting out Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2017)

There you have the labour manifesto cheered to the rafters by it's supporters. [without realising that many parts are a cut and paste job of the 10 year old SNP one.]


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 16, 2017)

Shock horror!

a) party supporters support document produced by party
b) Doon straight away refers to the SNP.

You forgot to mention that the Green party also produced a lot of these same manifesto promises in the last few years.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Shock horror!

a) party supporters support document produced by party
b) Doon straight away refers to the SNP.

You forgot to mention that the Green party also produced a lot of these same manifesto promises in the last few years.
		
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Nice to see the  Labour finally taking note and catching up with policies that have proved popular with voters in Scotland for many years.
Scottish Greens and SNP are joined at the hip so they would probably have influenced the SNP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Good headline stuff from Corbyn - as far as funding it - I'm chortling somewhat hearing some complaining that it's 'pie-in-the-sky' - as if a great future outside of the EU isn't.

As far as tax increases on pay.  Income tax would increase to 45p marginal rate for people earning over Â£80,000, and 50p marginal for those on more than Â£123,000, with an "excessive pay levy" on salaries above Â£330,000 (that is levied on the companies)

Now I wouldn't fall in the 45p rate - but my life is actually relatively comfortable.  Were I earning Â£81k I'd be getting asked to pay Â£50 *a year* additional tax.  If I earn Â£100k? - I am asked to pay Â£1000 a year more in IT (that's Â£83/month).  Unacceptable - I don't think so.  

Yes - the majority of the income tax falls on the shoulders of those most able to cope with it - but that's the way it should and must be, I'm sure those least able to carry more burden in respect of income would be more than happy to be in a position to pay more.  That 25% of income tax is paid by the top 1% of earners is not a reason for not asking them to pay a little more - indeed it is a fact that highlights the inequality in our society.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What does the Q stand for? I'm pretty sure I know but if it is what I think then that was surely covered already by LG. Answers please.
		
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The Q stands for 'Queer' because the LGBT community wished to gain ownership of the word 'Queer' in a positive context rather than as it is commonly used in the context of abuse against that community


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good headline stuff from Corbyn - as far as funding it - I'm chortling somewhat hearing some complaining that it's 'pie-in-the-sky' - as if a great future outside of the EU isn't.

As far as tax increases on pay.  Income tax would increase to 45p marginal rate for people earning over Â£80,000, and 50p marginal for those on more than Â£123,000, with an "excessive pay levy" on salaries above Â£330,000 (that is levied on the companies)

Now I wouldn't fall in the 45p rate - but my life is actually relatively comfortable.  Were I earning Â£81k I'd be getting asked to pay Â£50 *a year* additional tax.  If I earn Â£100k? - I am asked to pay Â£1000 a year more in IT (that's Â£83/month).  Unacceptable - I don't think so.  

Yes - the majority of the income tax falls on the shoulders of those most able to cope with it - but that's the way it should and must be, I'm sure those least able to carry more burden in respect of income would be more than happy to be in a position to pay more.  That 25% of income tax is paid by the top 1% of earners is not a reason for not asking them to pay a little more - indeed it is a fact that highlights the inequality in our society.
		
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I'd much rather see a flat rate of tax, but it starting higher, e.g. 30% starting at, say Â£35,000.

As things currently stand, someone on Â£20,000 pays Â£2000 about in tax, whereas someone on Â£80,000 currently pays Â£22,000. The high earners are already paying way more because of the higher rate.

If a high earner has worked their what's its off and got to the big bucks why penalise them for it?

Leaving more money in a person's pocket means they spend more = more VAT and more products being made for them to buy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I'd much rather see a flat rate of tax, but it starting higher, e.g. 30% starting at, say Â£35,000.

As things currently stand, someone on Â£20,000 pays Â£2000 about in tax, whereas someone on Â£80,000 currently pays Â£22,000. The high earners are already paying way more because of the higher rate.

If a high earner has worked their what's its off and got to the big bucks why penalise them for it?

Leaving more money in a person's pocket means they spend more = more VAT and more products being made for them to buy.
		
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Plenty of people on Â£26k (the UK average wage - the median being Â£22k I think) work their socks off and just as hard as someone earning 4x as much.  I don't buy the argument that salary reflects an entitlement - many of us are where we are through a combination of good luck and sacrifice by others, as well as hard work.   But that notwithstanding - if those able to pay a bit more don't - the who does?

And also - why is paying more tax seen as a penalty? Could not those who earn more be grateful that they are in a position to contribute a bit more to the overall well-being of the country and society.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Q stands for 'Queer' because the LGBT community wished to gain ownership of the word 'Queer' in a positive context rather than as it is commonly used in the context of abuse against that community
		
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I suspect that is for another thread, one that could get messy, so I will leave it there. Thanks for the explanation though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect that is for another thread, one that could get messy, so I will leave it there. Thanks for the explanation though.
		
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Yup.


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## jp5 (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If a high earner has worked their what's its off and got to the big bucks why penalise them for it?
		
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Get to that salary and you're likely dependent on the work of the lesser well off.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask them to pay a bit more for the better of society as a whole.

It's only a tax increase on the top 5% remember. Typically the bracket that has done best since the recession. I think they can take it.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Plenty of people on Â£26k (the UK average wage - the median being Â£22k I think) work their socks off and just as hard as someone earning 4x as much.  I don't buy the argument that salary reflects an entitlement - many of us are where we are through a combination of good luck and sacrifice by others.   And that notwithstanding - if those able to pay a bit more don't - the who does?

And also - why is paying more tax seen as a penalty? Could not those who earn more be grateful that they are in a position to contribute a bit more to the overall well-being of the country and society.
		
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How some of us get to wherever we get to is irrelevant as it then comes down to a case by case basis - that's just not scientific. 

As for taking more money off the rich because they're rich...there's no fairness in that at all. BTW, I'm not in the Â£80k bracket either, I just believe its wrong. As for sickly sweet McDonnell saying just a little bit more, but he won't put a number to it when he's asked will he?

As for what to do differently; vanity projects like HS2 for starters.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Get to that salary and you're likely dependent on the work of the lesser well off.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask them to pay a bit more for the better of society as a whole.

It's only a tax increase on the top 5% remember. Typically the bracket that has done best since the recession. I think they can take it.
		
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They are already paying more than 10Xtimes more than those on Â£20k. As I said, I'd rather take those on lower incomes out of tax altogether but have flat rate from, pick something in the middle Â£30k-Â£40k. 5% on the Â£30k is only another Â£500 = Â£42/month. 

But then you get those who are just hit for "a little bit extra" saying unfair.


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

Just going to leave this here........


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2017)

Not sure why the public sector should be given more billions to waste.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just going to leave this here........

View attachment 22652

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And so what can the Tory Party offer?  

More council houses!  
Who's going to pay for them?  
The Councils!  
With what money?
Existing budgets!
But you are cutting their budget?
They can make efficiency savings!
They have?
They can borrow money!
They can't?

So what are the Tories offering us?

A year off work to look after your oldies!
But I can't afford to take a year off work?
Well that's your choice!

So what are the Tories offering us?

No income tax increases!
What? - for the duration of the next government?
We are committed to lowering personal taxation!
So no income tax increases for the duration of the next government?
We are committed to lowering personal taxation!

OK - so what have the Tories got to offer

Net migration in the 10s of thousands!
I thought it was immigration to meet the economic needs of the country? (well that's what my Brexit Guru *@SR* tells me)
Net migration in the 10s of thousands!  That's what The British People voted for!
But non-EU migration in 2016 is 165,000?
Net migration in the 10s of thousands!
Eh?

So what have the Tories got to offer?

Theresa May singing "Strong and Stable" every day until doomsday!
Ah OK - can't question that one.  To what tune?
It'll be alright on the night!
So fingers crossed?
Only Phillips...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure why the public sector should be given more billions to waste.
		
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Yup - that's it - let's just let our infrastructure and society fall apart - that infrastructure that has been built over the last 100 years through putting our income tax to good use,  and when you stop repairing and renewing - what happens?  Yes - it falls apart - and it then it doesn't matter if your tax savings and wealth have enabled you to buy a fancy motor - if the roads are full of potholes you ain't going to be able to enjoy it.  

And when your hospitals are struggling along chronically short of staff, with the rain coming through the roof - it doesn't matter that you have the wealth of Croesus - because you'll be in the same queue as the rest or paying a fortune for private health insurance - and still queuing in your private hospital waiting room as everyone else with money has done the same.

And in the evenings you remain locked in your house watching your 60" screen because outside the social unrest is too dangerous as lynch mobs tour the streets looking for foreigners to blame.

Will never happen of course - because The Fantasy World of post-Brexit Toryvision sees us in a magical land where unicorns roam the green and pleasant lands, as happy citiizens sing and dance and give thanks to the Supreme Leader for delivering us from the Badlands EU and the Evilmeisters Macron and Merkel.

And I can make up this nonsense - as I have got nothing from the Tories or Davy and The DExEUs to tell me what 2020 might actually look like.  

But I am told that the Labour Parties vision is rubbish - at least it is a vision that I can hear, read and understand whether I think it is great or achievable or not - at least it is a vision for our country.


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## IanM (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's it - let's just let our infrastructure and society fall apart - 

But I am told that the Labour Parties vision is rubbish - at least it is a vision that I can hear, read and understand whether I think it is great or achievable or not - at least it is a vision for our country.
		
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I agree.   Labour Vision is dead easy to understand.  They tried it in the USSR in the last century.  It failed.   

( If its unachievable it cant be great surely, it's just words?)

And while I am on it.... if  Public Services are on their arse , why is open door immigration advocated so heavily?  Surely more folk joining a long queue makes the queue...... um longer????  (or is "8k a Copper" Woman doing the sums again?)


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2017)

I don't disagree that there are areas in the public sector that need more infrastructure work doing on it but the huge amounts that the public sector waste need to be sorted first.

As an advocate of one of the most wasteful institutions in the world I don't expect you to agree.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

IanM said:



			I agree.   Labour Vision is dead easy to understand.  They tried it in the USSR in the last century.  It failed.   

( If its unachievable it cant be great surely, it's just words?)

And while I am on it.... if  Public Services are on their arse , why is open door immigration advocated so heavily?  Surely more folk joining a long queue makes the queue...... um longer????  (or is "8k a Copper" Woman doing the sums again?)
		
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The danger of Labour's version of Marxism/communism is it is more Marxism-Leninism in that it retains central control with an Islington elite. This version of backhanded state capitalism has never worked because it dumbs down entrepreneurship. Everyone ends up with a little grey workers uniform with a red book in the top pocket. No managers, all drones.

In terms of a distribution of wealth it doesn't work because that level of central government costs an absolute fortune to create and run - sounds like Brown's creation of thousands upon thousands of state jobs with less and less revenue producers...

At the very outset a vast war chest will be needed to buy back the Post Office, railways and the utility companies. For any government to achieve the buy backs and fund a welfare state to the extent that Labour are proposing, taxation will go back to the heady days of the 70's. 35% basic rate and a whooping 83% as the higher rate. No way am I voting to bring back those penal days.


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			At the very outset a vast war chest will be needed to buy back the Post Office, railways and the utility companies. For any government to achieve the buy backs and fund a welfare state to the extent that Labour are proposing, taxation will go back to the heady days of the 70's. 35% basic rate and a whooping 83% as the higher rate. No way am I voting to bring back those penal days.
		
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My understanding is that rather than "buy back" the railways they will allow the franchises to expire and not renew them. I assume that this will mean that there needn't be a huge outlay to re-nationalise them depending obviously on the contracts signed and any penalty clauses written in to them.

For the utilities, would it not be cheaper for the government to create a new energy supplier? Form a new company "Government Energy PLC" and sell energy at a lower cost than all of the other suppliers. This would then either force the others to drop their prices or go out of business. I have no idea if that is practical or legal but it seems that if I can switch from British Gas to N Power to Scottish Energy with no barriers then surely I could also switch to Government Energy PLC in the same way. Does anyone have knowledge of the industry and whether that would work?


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			My understanding is that rather than "buy back" the railways they will allow the franchises to expire and not renew them. I assume that this will mean that there needn't be a huge outlay to re-nationalise them depending obviously on the contracts signed and any penalty clauses written in to them.

For the utilities, would it not be cheaper for the government to create a new energy supplier? Form a new company "Government Energy PLC" and sell energy at a lower cost than all of the other suppliers. This would then either force the others to drop their prices or go out of business. I have no idea if that is practical or legal but it seems that if I can switch from British Gas to N Power to Scottish Energy with no barriers then surely I could also switch to Government Energy PLC in the same way. Does anyone have knowledge of the industry and whether that would work?
		
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Oh good! By the time the rail franchises run out the big spend will be on rolling stock that hasn't been replaced. Aye, that's been well thought out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Looking forward to the Tory Party manifesto since for it to have any basis for anyone believing it the Tories are going to have to explain how they will pay for their commitments through to 2022 so 3 yrs after we leave the EU.  And for these manifesto commitments to be in any way believable we'll have to get the Tory view on the economy post Brexit. And that will be something we don't know at the moment.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking forward to the Tory Party manifesto since for it to have any basis for anyone believing it the Tories are going to have to explain how they will pay for their commitments through to 2022 so 3 yrs after we leave the EU.  And for these manifesto commitments to be in any way believable we'll have to get the Tory view on the economy post Brexit. And that will be something we don't know at the moment.
		
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And Labour have detailed their post-Brexit plan, inc funding....


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And Labour have detailed their post-Brexit plan, inc funding....
		
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Must have missed that bit, so did a bemused Corbyn


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Must have missed that bit, so did a bemused Corbyn
		
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Don't worry, Diane Abbott can run the country on a few beans.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And Labour have detailed their post-Brexit plan, inc funding....
		
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Ah! thats different. remember everything Tory is complete tosh and everything Labour is manna from heaven.  Tories have to prove funding for their plans but Labour don't.   You know the drill.


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And Labour have detailed their post-Brexit plan, inc funding....
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Ah! thats different. remember everything Tory is complete tosh and everything Labour is manna from heaven.  Tories have to prove funding for their plans but Labour don't.   You know the drill.
		
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That's a bit unfair SR. All of the pledges in the Labour manifesto have been fully costed and all of their spending has been accounted for. Jeremy Corbyn said so, so it must be true. :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And Labour have detailed their post-Brexit plan, inc funding....
		
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I'm looking forward for that detail from the Tories.  Will be interesting as they also haven't got a clue what the economy will look like post-Brexit.

That said - having just watched a Theresa May Personality Broadcast masquerading as a Tory Party Election Broadcast I'm not sure the Tories will bother much about what's in their manifesto or whether they can fund it.

Because it's quite clear than this election is going to be about a Labour Party with a vision facing up to the Supreme Leader (self-proclaimed) spinning fear about the Labour Party and selling herself as the antidote to the very fear that she and her acolytes in the right wing press create.

ho hum.

If Labour had a chance in my constituency I'd vote for them.  But they don't - and as it looks very likely that we will have a Progressive Alliance candidate trying to replace Jeremy Hunt with LibDems and Greens not standing - then that's where my vote will be going.  

Sorry Jeremy.  No matter that you are OK guy and a pretty good constituency  MP - you are the face of an unacceptable Tory Party and an unacceptable Brexit.  Never mind the ongoing NHS shambles and crisis.  If your Supreme Leader was making less of Brexit in this GE you might have a good chance of retaining your seat - but that she isn't I think puts you at serious risk.  Anyway - if you lose out you won't suffer given you recently sold your business for Â£17m - so you are really just like the rest of us.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's a bit unfair SR. All of the pledges in the Labour manifesto have been fully costed and all of their spending has been accounted for. Jeremy Corbyn said so, so it must be true. :thup:
		
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Ah! I was forgetting that.  How silly of me.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 16, 2017)

Can anyone really see anyone getting near tories ?

In all my lifetime I don't recall ever seeing an opposition so weak and pathetic - and it's of their own choosing


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm looking forward for that detail from the Tories.  Will be interesting as they also haven't got a clue what the economy will look like post-Brexit.

That said - having just watched a Theresa May Personality Broadcast masquerading as a Tory Party Election Broadcast I'm not sure the Tories will bother much about what's in their manifesto or whether they can fund it.

Because it's quite clear than this election is going to be about a Labour Party with a vision facing up to the Supreme Leader (self-proclaimed) spinning fear about the Labour Party and selling herself as the antidote to the very fear that she and her acolytes in the right wing press create.

ho hum.

If Labour had a chance in my constituency I'd vote for them.  But they don't - and as it looks very likely that we will have a Progressive Alliance candidate trying to replace Jeremy Hunt with LibDems and Greens not standing - then that's where my vote will be going.  

Sorry Jeremy.  No matter that you are OK guy and a pretty good constituency  MP - you are the face of an unacceptable Tory Party and an unacceptable Brexit.  Never mind the ongoing NHS shambles and crisis.  If your Supreme Leader was making less of Brexit in this GE you might have a good chance of retaining your seat - but that she isn't I think puts you at serious risk.  Anyway - if you lose out you won't suffer given you recently sold your business for Â£17m - so you are really just like the rest of us.
		
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If you go back a few days amongst your posts you say you say you won't vote Labour, and now you're saying you will. Just like Mary Poppins when the wind changes.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so what can the Tory Party offer?  
Net migration in the 10s of thousands!
I thought it was immigration to meet the economic needs of the country? (well that's what my Brexit Guru *@SR* tells me)
Net migration in the 10s of thousands!  That's what The British People voted for!
But non-EU migration in 2016 is 165,000?
Net migration in the 10s of thousands!
Eh?

So what have the Tories got to offer?.
		
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Maybe 100,000 is enough to meet the ecconomic needs of the country, maybe it's too many as you keep telling us that after Brexit we will be on our knees and impoverished with no jobs, young people destitute with no housing or income, .  Why add to the misery by allowing more people to come here and starve in the fields.


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry Jeremy.  No matter that you are OK guy and a pretty good constituency  MP - you are the face of an unacceptable Tory Party and an unacceptable Brexit.  Never mind the ongoing NHS shambles and crisis.  If your Supreme Leader was making less of Brexit in this GE you might have a good chance of retaining your seat - but that she isn't I think puts you at serious risk.  Anyway - if you lose out you won't suffer given you recently sold your business for Â£17m - so you are really just like the rest of us.
		
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Were you this upset about the wealth of MPs when Ed Milliband had at least 7 millionaires in the shadow cabinet? Or is it just Tory MPs that you are willing to attack for being wealthy?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			The danger of Labour's version of Marxism/communism is it is more Marxism-Leninism in that it retains central control with an Islington elite. This version of backhanded state capitalism has never worked because it dumbs down entrepreneurship. Everyone ends up with a little grey workers uniform with a red book in the top pocket. No managers, all drones.

In terms of a distribution of wealth it doesn't work because that level of central government costs an absolute fortune to create and run - sounds like Brown's creation of thousands upon thousands of state jobs with less and less revenue producers...

At the very outset a vast war chest will be needed to buy back the Post Office, railways and the utility companies. For any government to achieve the buy backs and fund a welfare state to the extent that Labour are proposing, taxation will go back to the heady days of the 70's. 35% basic rate and a whooping 83% as the higher rate. No way am I voting to bring back those penal days.
		
Click to expand...

Labour's version of Marxism/Communism being having key public services in public ownership? as the services have not improved all the while the shareholders have taken billions out of the UK - after all most of the owners of our privatised public services are non-UK.

Might I suggest that the chancellors Â£60bn war chest he has for mitigating Brexit risks, and as a contingency for issues arising, could go quite some way towards the nationalisation war chest.

And yet again you talk of income tax as being something that should be avoided as it is 'penal'.  Back in the days of the 83% higher rate the difference between the rich and the poor was a lot less and there are a lot more individuals with absurdly huge incomes that could easily accommodate an 83% marginal rate.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 16, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can anyone really see anyone getting near tories ?

In all my lifetime I don't recall ever seeing an opposition so weak and pathetic - and it's of their own choosing
		
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You don't remember Michael Foot, William Hague, Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Howard? All very shabby yet their respective parties all recovered and regained power.

Next time around the conservatives are likely to have run out of steam and ideas, the cycle of a governing party coming to an end, and they may be suffering from a post Brexit economy slump. If Labour have a half decent leader by then they have a good chance of winning again. Just not this time.


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## Raesy92 (May 16, 2017)

So Labour have a fully costed manifesto and the Tories have not. Yet Labour still getting stick from many.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! thats different. remember everything Tory is complete tosh and everything Labour is manna from heaven.  Tories have to prove funding for their plans but Labour don't.   You know the drill.
		
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I assume then that you have not watched the Channel 4 news this evening when Emily Thornbury was grilled on funding the manifesto.  It'll be easy for the Tories to explain the funding of their programme because they'll either say 'from existing budgets' and aoid explaining how that would be achieved - or have pledges that will not be for the government to deliver - and so no money required.

Meanwhile as this is May's (Strong and Stable) Brexit Election I will be looking for clear explanation on how she is going to get net immigration down to the tens of thousands - something you have not yet (I don't think) explained how that sits with your oft stated insistence that _'immigration will be what is required by the economy' _approach.  

And even if I missed it I think your explanation would be worth hearing again.  I'm all ears.  So *@SR *- immigration down to 10s of thousands - how and when?


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			So Labour have a fully costed manifesto and the Tories have not. Yet Labour still getting stick from many.
		
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Listening to the Corbyn interview it didn't appear to be be fully costed but I'm not the kind of voter that believes any party ever comes up with a fully costed manifesto or believes everything I hear.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			So Labour have a fully costed manifesto and the Tories have not. Yet Labour still getting stick from many.
		
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Is a manifesto ever worth the paper it's written on ?

It's always a bunch of promises that are later broken


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Labour's version of Marxism/Communism being having key public services in public ownership? as the services have not improved all the while the shareholders have taken billions out of the UK - after all most of the owners of our privatised public services are non-UK.

Might I suggest that the chancellors Â£60bn war chest he has for mitigating Brexit risks, and as a contingency for issues arising, could go quite some way towards the nationalisation war chest.

And yet again you talk of income tax as being something that should be avoided as it is 'penal'.  Back in the days of the 83% higher rate the difference between the rich and the poor was a lot less and there are a lot more individuals with absurdly huge incomes that could easily accommodate an 83% marginal rate.
		
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I just dont understand this Socialist idea of punishing people who are successful.   They have already paid their tax and as we know 30% of tax is already paid by the top 1% of UK earners.   Is it a crime to work hard create wealth, provide work for others because that's what people like you seem to want to destroy.

You keep mentioning this Â£60 Billion war chest that the chancellor keeps under his bed.  Where exactly did he get this amount of money from?  Did he borrow it, I dont think so, so please explain where it came from if it exists.

The Tories have taken millions of low paid out of income tax with their policy of raising the tax free threshold year on year. labour had the opportunity to do this in their term of office but decided not to.   But hey ho! what ever the Tories do will not change your rabid blinkered view of them.  Sad really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			If you go back a few days amongst your posts you say you say you won't vote Labour, and now you're saying you will. Just like Mary Poppins when the wind changes.
		
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I liked what Corbyn said in his manifesto launch today; I have liked his engagement with voters; I did not like his pusillanimity during the Brexit debate but I liked what I heard from him on Brexit today - 'No Deal' will be rejected as an option and there will be an immediate guarantee of existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain.  

Now I still think that Corbyn is unelectable as a PM - as May is making this a Brexit GE and her buddies in the right wing press are focussed on trashing Corbyn round the block.  But I like the boldness and vision of the Labour PArty manifesto - and much of that will have come from the pen of Jeremy Corbyn.

Meanwhile I expect May (SaS) to also explain her 180 degree about turn on Brexit - from Leave EU terrible - to severest severance with EU great.  Because she is being dishonest pretending that she can get a great free trade agreement with the EU without accepting any oversight by the ECJ or accepting any form of, or variant on, free movement.


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## Raesy92 (May 16, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is a manifesto ever worth the paper it's written on ?

It's always a bunch of promises that are later broken
		
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Sure Labour said on QT that they wanted to put their costings to an independent body along with the Tories costings to make sure it all added up. Tories refused.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Were you this upset about the wealth of MPs when Ed Milliband had at least 7 millionaires in the shadow cabinet? Or is it just Tory MPs that you are willing to attack for being wealthy?
		
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What makes you think I'm upset by his wealth?  Did I say I was upset by his wealth? No! What I was saying was that Hunt needn't pretend that whatever the outcome of Brexit and with him being unemployed he's in it like the rest of us.  Because he won't be.


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## Raesy92 (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont understand this Socialist idea of punishing people who are successful.   They have already paid their tax and as we know 30% of tax is already paid by the top 1% of UK earners.   Is it a crime to work hard create wealth, provide work for others because that's what people like you seem to want to destroy.

You keep mentioning this Â£60 Billion war chest that the chancellor keeps under his bed.  Where exactly did he get this amount of money from?  Did he borrow it, I dont think so, so please explain where it came from if it exists.

The Tories have taken millions of low paid out of income tax with their policy of raising the tax free threshold year on year. labour had the opportunity to do this in their term of office but decided not to.   But hey ho! what ever the Tories do will not change your rabid blinkered view of them.  Sad really.
		
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Many that are at the top, and in the top 1% earners have had a privileged lifestyle in order to be able to create that wealth. There are many low earners that work 50+ hour weeks and hold down 2 or more jobs to do their best for their families. Do these people not work equally as hard, if not harder?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont understand this Socialist idea of punishing people who are successful.   They have already paid their tax and as we know 30% of tax is already paid by the top 1% of UK earners.   Is it a crime to work hard create wealth, provide work for others because that's what people like you seem to want to destroy.

You keep mentioning this Â£60 Billion war chest that the chancellor keeps under his bed.  Where exactly did he get this amount of money from?  Did he borrow it, I dont think so, so please explain where it came from if it exists.

The Tories have taken millions of low paid out of income tax with their policy of raising the tax free threshold year on year. labour had the opportunity to do this in their term of office but decided not to.   But hey ho! what ever the Tories do will not change your rabid blinkered view of them.  Sad really.
		
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Paying tax is not a punishment - it is contributing more to the common weal when you can afford to contribute more.  It is appreciating that when you are fortunate enough to have wealth and/or a high income that there are many who are not so fortunate - who live lives much less fortunate and gilded - and for whom life is a daily struggle.  And being grateful that you are able to able to make a larger contribution without that significantly affecting your lifestyle.  It may mean not replacing your car every two years, or taking one less weeks holiday a year.  But in return you get the peace-of-mind from knowing that you are doing the right thing - you are part of what made the UK great - a caring and compassionate country of people for whom self is not the most important thing in life.

Meanwhile - the 10s of thousands.  Got an answer for that one yet.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Labour's version of Marxism/Communism being having key public services in public ownership? as the services have not improved all the while the shareholders have taken billions out of the UK - after all most of the owners of our privatised public services are non-UK.

And yet again you talk of income tax as being something that should be avoided as it is 'penal'.  Back in the days of the 83% higher rate the difference between the rich and the poor was a lot less and there are a lot more individuals with absurdly huge incomes that could easily accommodate an 83% marginal rate.
		
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And the railways are a public service? The Post Office is a public service? Utilities are essential as is the NHS.

When have i said avoid income tax? I've twice in recent posts suggested raising the basic rate, but taking more of the lower paid out of income tax completely. And if you go back far enough you will find I have said I'd welcome an increase. What I've also said is a disagree with this fashionable inverted snobbery of attacking people who earn more than Â£80k. It's a soft target for Labour as it affects very few voters.

Where am I looking to avoid income tax?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Sure Labour said on QT that they wanted to put their costings to an independent body along with the Tories costings to make sure it all added up. Tories refused.
		
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And on Channel 4 news this evening Emily Thornbury laid down the same challenge to the Tories.  The OBR to review the manifestos and costings.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Many that are at the top, and in the top 1% earners have had a privileged lifestyle in order to be able to create that wealth. There are many low earners that work 50+ hour weeks and hold down 2 or more jobs to do their best for their families. Do these people not work equally as hard, if not harder?
		
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You have missed my point completely.  You seem to have double standards with this.  If someone works 50 hours a week and struggles to get by then they are OK and doing their bit, if someone else works 50/80 hours a week and is successful then they are greedy, privileged and should pay a higher rate of tax even though they are already paying more anyway.  If you think all successful people had a privileged  start in life then you dont understand how most business get underway.  Most are started by people who work their bits off, take chances, borrow money and put their selves completely on the line, very few are inherited or started by rich boys.  Hard working employees are worthy of support but if you want to punish the people that create their jobs then you are very shortsighted.


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## Old Skier (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			There are many low earners that work 50+ hour weeks and hold down 2 or more jobs
		
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Interesting, where are these figures from. I presume jobs 2 and 3 are not many hours.


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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Paying tax is not a punishment - it is contributing more to the common weal when you can afford to contribute more.  It is appreciating that when you are fortunate enough to have wealth and/or a high income that there are many who are not so fortunate - who live lives much less fortunate and gilded - and for whom life is a daily struggle.  And being grateful that you are able to able to make a larger contribution without that significantly affecting your lifestyle.  It may mean not replacing your car every two years, or taking one less weeks holiday a year.  But in return you get the peace-of-mind from knowing that you are doing the right thing - you are part of what made the UK great - a caring and compassionate country of people for whom self is not the most important thing in life.

*Meanwhile - the 10s of thousands.  Got an answer for that one yet*.
		
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Wake up and roll back to post 200    You wont like it though


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Many that are at the top, and in the top 1% earners have had a privileged lifestyle in order to be able to create that wealth. There are many low earners that work 50+ hour weeks and hold down 2 or more jobs to do their best for their families. Do these people not work equally as hard, if not harder?
		
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I would have dearly loved to work less than 50+hours a week for the last 20 years. Most of that time salaried, which means no overtime. I'm now a senior manager, and have worked my butt off to get there. Whilst I wouldn't fall foul of Labour's tax hike I would be mightily miffed if I did.

So where is the incentive to better yourself?


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## Raesy92 (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You have missed my point completely.  You seem to have double standards with this.  If someone works 50 hours a week and struggles to get by then they are OK and doing their bit, if someone else works 50/80 hours a week and is successful then they are greedy, privileged and should pay a higher rate of tax even though they are already paying more anyway.  If you think all successful people had a privileged  start in life then you dont understand how most business get underway.  Most are started by people who work their bits off, take chances, borrow money and put their selves completely on the line, very few are inherited or started by rich boys.  Hard working employees are worthy of support but if you want to punish the people that create their jobs then you are very shortsighted.
		
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Punish? I'm pretty sure them paying a few extra % in taxes won't affect their lifestyle too much.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

Corbyn, note CORBYN, admits in an interview with the BBC that the re-nationalisations are not costed. He also says that nationalising the railways are at zero cost as they'll just let the franchises run down. Zero cost? The nationalised railways will inherit old rolling stock - which franchisee will replace any stock if Labour win?

Who remembers the old British Rail stock, the delayed and broken down trains and the appalling buffet cars? 

Who is he trying to kid? Only the gullible.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 16, 2017)




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## SocketRocket (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Punish? I'm pretty sure them paying a few extra % in taxes won't affect their lifestyle too much.
		
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Sour grapes, the politics of envy.  The very worst type.


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## ColchesterFC (May 16, 2017)

Been done before LP but that time it was for Michael Gove.........




Probably true for both of them though.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Don't worry, Diane Abbott can run the country on a few beans.
		
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.........and an entire Tory party [with a wee bit of help from the Lieb Dems] can nearly double the national debt within 7 years.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.........and an entire Tory party [with a wee bit of help from the Lieb Dems] can nearly double the national debt within 7 years.
		
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More spin.... [yawn]. 

From an overspend of Â£157 billion a year, that overspend is now down to Â£57billion. GDP down to 4%... unlike Scotland where its over 9%, fuelled by the SNP's crazy vote buying.


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## Raesy92 (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Sour grapes, the politics of envy.  The very worst type.
		
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Sorry, you have got me all wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And the railways are a public service? The Post Office is a public service? Utilities are essential as is the NHS.

When have i said avoid income tax? I've twice in recent posts suggested raising the basic rate, but taking more of the lower paid out of income tax completely. And if you go back far enough you will find I have said I'd welcome an increase. What I've also said is a disagree with this fashionable inverted snobbery of attacking people who earn more than Â£80k. It's a soft target for Labour as it affects very few voters.

Where am I looking to avoid income tax?
		
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I don't think I said you were.  Though I should note that a Tory spokesperson has said that Labour tax plans won't work as high earners will simply find ways of avoiding paying more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Sorry, you have got me all wrong.
		
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It's an easy jibe whenever you suggest that those who earn more might not find it too difficult to pay a little more.  So if I earned Â£90k a year I'd pay Â£500 a year more tax.  That about Â£10 a week.  Sorry to those earning Â£90k if they would struggle losing that Â£10 every week.  But somehow I just don't think so.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think I said you were.  Though I should note that a Tory spokesperson has said that Labour tax plans won't work as high earners will simply find ways of avoiding paying more.
		
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*And yet again you talk of income tax as being something that should be avoided 
*
 Your words


He wasn't a Tory spokesperson, he was from the Office(?) of Fiscal studies. Facts, not spin...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Corbyn, note CORBYN, admits in an interview with the BBC that the re-nationalisations are not costed. He also says that nationalising the railways are at zero cost as they'll just let the franchises run down. Zero cost? The nationalised railways will inherit old rolling stock - which franchisee will replace any stock if Labour win?

Who remembers the old British Rail stock, the delayed and broken down trains and the appalling buffet cars? 

Who is he trying to kid? Only the gullible.
		
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There are gullibles everywhere.  Brexit and net immigration down to 10s of thousands anyone?  A great free trade deal with the EU with no ECJ jurisdiction and without freedom of movement or any variant of it?


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There are gullibles everywhere.  Brexit and net immigration down to 10s of thousands anyone?  A great free trade deal with the EU with no ECJ jurisdiction and without freedom of movement or any variant of it?
		
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Deflect and avoid. My post was quoting Corbyn, which you ignored. The Labour party manifesto is not costed, whatever they say about putting it in front of the OBR.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



*And yet again you talk of income tax as being something that should be avoided 
*
 Your words


He wasn't a Tory spokesperson, he was from the Office(?) of Fiscal studies. Facts, not spin...
		
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The Tory wasn't on the Ten O'clock news - he was speaking earlier. And that Tory spokesman said that the tax plans wouldn't work because high earners would find a way top avoid paying the little bit more they are being asked for.  I'm 100% NOT saying IT is something to be avoided.  I suggest that were I to be earning Â£90K a year I'd be more than happy to pay another Â£10 a week into the pot.

And many DO see additional IT as something to be avoided,  though I accept (sorry) that you only referred to it as being penal - which rather suggests you don't like it...  But maybe just the additional bit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Deflect and avoid. My post was quoting Corbyn, which you ignored. The Labour party manifesto is not costed, whatever they say about putting it in front of the OBR.
		
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Corbyn said he'd hope the cost of nationalisation to be neutral, but can't say until he sees the treasury detailed figures on GDP and when they know what the share price would be at the time of looking at doing it.

This is clearly a massive policy that is very difficult to cost - but not as difficult or massive a problem as costing such as a Brexit _No Deal_.  So do you expect the Tories to state the cost to the UK economy of a _No Deal_ - and if not then why not?  It is going to be an element of the Tory Party manifesto that will have no cost against it as the Tories either have no idea - or they do have an idea but daren't tell.  But will you be damning the whole Tory Party manifesto on the basis of an uncosted _No Deal _- I have my doubts.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Tory wasn't on the Ten O'clock news - he was speaking earlier. And that Tory spokesman said that the tax plans wouldn't work because high earners would find a way top avoid paying the little bit more they are being asked for.  I'm 100% NOT saying IT is something to be avoided.  I suggest that were I to be earning Â£90K a year I'd be more than happy to pay another Â£10 a week into the pot.
		
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Skinflint!!

I'd pay treble that without even blinking if I was earning Â£90k... I don't mind paying more, through choice. Crikey, I've got xx amount already going out, through choice, as well as doing plenty of hours every month, through choice. I don't need a nanny state to do that - and don't forget, that nanny state comes with a whole inflated dept deciding where the money goes.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Sour grapes, the politics of envy.  The very worst type.
		
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Hmmmmmm I seem to remember a 60% tax rate under Thatcher, could be wrong though.
Was that envy as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Skinflint!!

I'd pay treble that without even blinking if I was earning Â£90k... I don't mind paying more, through choice. Crikey, I've got xx amount already going out, through choice, as well as doing plenty of hours every month, through choice. I don't need a nanny state to do that - and don't forget, that nanny state comes with a whole inflated dept deciding where the money goes.
		
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Indeed - I already pay more than Â£10 a week in regular giving...to good causes.  It's actually not a lot - I should give more.

But Â£10 a week more is all that the new tax rate asks those earning Â£90K a year to contribute to the pot - and yet I have already heard plenty moaning about it and saying the money could be found from 'savings'.


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - I already pay more than Â£10 a week in regular giving...to good causes.  It's actually not a lot - I should give more.

But Â£10 a week more is all that the new tax rate asks those earning Â£90K a year to contribute to the pot.
		
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I agree, Â£10 isn't a great deal. But by me choosing where it goes I engage with that charity/cause and end up following the charity and doing even more. 

Do I want xx millions spent on an advertising campaign to stop smoking in some far flung foreign country that only has 5% of the population with TV's!


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hmmmmmm I seem to remember a 60% tax rate under Thatcher, could be wrong though.
Was that envy as well.
		
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You're not wrong. But the snap shot in time doesn't show that they inherited a top rate of 83%. There's no way of balancing the books by going straight from 83% down to 40%.


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## FairwayDodger (May 16, 2017)

Taxation is the price we pay to live in a civilised society. Progressive taxation based on the ability to pay seems perfectly fair to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Taxation is the price we pay to live in a civilised society. Progressive taxation based on the ability to pay seems perfectly fair to me.
		
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..and with taxation the old saying applies - many a mickle makes a muckle.  And that would not apply if we all chose how much to give to the cause of our own choice at a frequency of our own choosing missing giving payments whenever it didn't suit.  That's why charities are so keen to encourage DD regular giving, it enables them to budget and plan significant projects.


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## USER1999 (May 17, 2017)

I am guessing those earning 90k would pay up, and many of them are paye and would have no choice. The tax avoiders are the people on many times this sum, where it becomes worthwhile. 

It still misses the point though. Why are a couple earning 70k each less rich than an individual earning 80k?


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

Let's face it. Both main party's will only put up taxes if they have to . No matter how fair or unfair those who aren't going to be affected by it think it, it's a guaranteed vote loser. As for the great speeches on closing tax loop holes, both main party's have had the opportunity in the past and done nothing.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2017)

I actually think Labour are quite happy on this occasion to be putting up taxes as they are looking to clearly differentiate between themselves and the Conservatives. They are making a clear play for a particular voter and they think that by raising taxes on the rest it will appeal to that first bunch of voters. They have written off the rich as potential Labour voters and so are making no attempt to attract them. That is my reading of the Corbyn era. A very different approach to the Blair era which realised you need to attract all groups in the country. He won 3 elections, mmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## FairwayDodger (May 17, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			I am guessing those earning 90k would pay up, and many of them are paye and would have no choice. The tax avoiders are the people on many times this sum, where it becomes worthwhile. 

It still misses the point though. Why are a couple earning 70k each less rich than an individual earning 80k?
		
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Fairly obviously because we are quite rightly taxed on an individual basis.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Fairly obviously because we are quite rightly taxed on an individual basis.
		
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But is it fair?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

And so Phillip Hammond rubbishing the Labour Party manifesto: the figures don't add up, uncosted promises; reckless borrowing; Labour putting at risk the success of the last 7 years growth in the economy, employment at record high, unemployment low.  

Now...

> The economy and all it delivers is so fabulous - is that not a keystone of the case for Remaining in the EU as this successful economy has been built in the context of the EU and trade with the EU?

> The Labour Party proposals putting everything at risk?  Well as nobody can tell us the outcome of the EU leave negotiations and what the economy will look like post-Brexit, with such uncertainly that in itself by definition puts our economic position at significant risk.

> Labour's uncosted proposals? See above.  We don't know how much leaving will cost us.  We don't know what leaving will mean as we don't know the terms of re-engagement with the EU; nor do we know the nature of any deals we will seek to strike with the wider world.  

But putting all that aside.  What is the cost or benefit to the UK of _No Deal_.  _No Deal _is clearly independent of any deal with the EU.  So what will _No Deal _mean.  I'll be looking for a costing in the Supreme Leader's Manifesto.  I note that this is a differentiator between Labour and the Supreme Leader,  with Labour _No Deal _is not an option.

> Borrowing.  Well let's look at the performance of the Tory Government over the last 7 yrs.  Let's look at some FACTS. In 2007 the UK National Debt was Â£767bn.  And we were told that we need austerity to reduce and eventually pay that off and balance the books by 2020 the Tories told us.  And we have had those painful austerity measures - and who has felt the pain?  Well the poorest of course.  Meanwhile the 2020 target has been kicked into the long grass.

Anyway - and so to today - after 7 years of a growing and successful economy and all the austerity measures, what is the UK National Debt.  Well knock me down with a feather Clever Trevor.  It's Â£1,730bn - yes, in 7 years and despite everything, the UK National Debt has more than doubled - in FACT it's gone up by nearly Â£1,000bn.  That's* Â£143bn a year*.  Rather makes the Labour Party borrowing intentions, even when inflated by the acolytes of the SLP (Supreme Leader Party), seem a rather good idea and quite affordable.

And we'll be looking at the vacuity and hollowness of the SLP's _'I am the party of working people_' boast later in the week when we see what her manifesto has to offer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			I am guessing those earning 90k would pay up, and many of them are paye and would have no choice. The tax avoiders are the people on many times this sum, where it becomes worthwhile. 

It still misses the point though. Why are a couple earning 70k each less rich than an individual earning 80k?
		
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They are Â£10k less rich in income as they don't earn as much.  At Â£70k joint, neither will pay additional IT under the Labour Party proposals.  That at couple jointly earning Â£90K will not be impacted whilst an individual earning Â£90K will pay about Â£10/week more in IT is simply a fact of Income Tax life.  Lines have to be drawn somewhere.  If the Â£90K is the total income for a couple or family I suggest that paying an additional Â£10/week in IT isn't going to significantly impact their lives - at Â£90K a family income is about 4x the national individual average.  So doing OK - not 'just managing'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			But is it fair?
		
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By asking 'is it fair' you imply that there is an aspect of 'unfairness'.  But if I as an individual earn Â£90k I should be grateful and happy to be able to pay a little more (Â£10/week) into the common pot for the good of others and not just for the good of myself.  Because that's the way a civilised, compassionate, caring and mature society works.  It works for the many and not just for the self and the few.

On a bit of a tangent but nonetheless related, later this week I shall be knocking on the doors of my street collecting for Christian Aid.  I wonder how many - in my relatively extremely well-off part of the UK - will pop Â£10 in the little red envelope.  After all - I ask for this on behalf of others only once a year.  I suspect I will find quite a lot of closed doors and 'no thanks'.  I shall report back...


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## FairwayDodger (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			But is it fair?
		
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Yes


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			By asking 'is it fair' you imply that there is an aspect of 'unfairness'.  But if I as an individual earn Â£90k I should be grateful and happy to be able to pay a little more (Â£100/week) into the common pot for the good of others and not just for the good of myself.  Because that's the way a civilised, compassionate, caring and mature society works.  It works for the many and not just for the self and the few.
		
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I'm implying nothing.  I asked a question and if you for 1 minute could take your blinkers off you my have noticed. You can answer it then.

If couple A earn  Â£80K (in total) and are taxed at a higher rate,
Should couple B who earn Â£70K each be taxed on the Â£140K that they can earn?

my thoughts are, - is it fair.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I'm implying nothing.  I asked a question and if you for 1 minute could take your blinkers off you my have noticed. You can answer it then.

If couple A earn  Â£80K (in total) and are taxed at a higher rate,
Should couple B who earn Â£70K each be taxed on the Â£140K that they can earn?

my thoughts are, - is it fair.
		
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Your question is about how Income Tax is applied and does not seem to relate to the Labour Party proposals.  But since you asked.  

As far as I am concerned I do not care how much my neighbour pays or does not pay in IT.  If I can afford to pay what I am asked to pay then I happily pay,  if I feel it is a struggle to pay I accept that I have to pay and so will happily pay.  If I do not care what my neighbour pays then the notion of fairness/unfairness does not come into it.  These things only really come into play if I look at my neighbour with envy or resentment.

I note that the couple on joint Â£80k could both be earning Â£40K and so *neither *would be paying IT at the current 40% higher rate.  Couple B would *both *be taxed at 40%


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your question is about how Income Tax is applied and does not seem to relate to the Labour Party proposals.  But since you asked.  

As far as I am concerned I do not care how much my neighbour pays or does not pay in IT.  If I can afford to pay what I am asked to pay then I happily pay,  if I feel it is a struggle to pay I accept that I have to pay and so will happily pay.  If I do not care what my neighbour pays then the notion of fairness/unfairness does not come into it.  These things only really come into play if I look at my neighbour with envy or resentment.

I note that the couple on joint Â£80k could both be earning Â£40K and so *neither *would be paying IT at the current 40% higher rate.  Couple B would *both *be taxed at 40%
		
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The answer was yes or no. See FD respons. I personally don't care either way and as you are someone that insists on fairness I was only after your take on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The answer was yes or no. See FD respons. I personally don't care either way and as you are someone that insists on fairness I was only after your take on it.
		
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OK - hope I've explained my position.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - hope I've explained my position.
		
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Must have missed that. Fair or not, yes or no. I fully appreciatethe system doesn't allow for it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Must have missed that. Fair or not, yes or no. I fully appreciatethe system doesn't allow for it.
		
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Fair yes.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2017)

A fine example of how low down the barrel Scottish Tories have to go for candidates.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1388805-two-conservative-councillors-suspended-over-tweets/.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2017)

Gone fishing again. Two people make inappropriate tweets ( got to love social media) and you blame it on the Tory Party.

I presume all SNP members are liars after the leaders Fisheries lies.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2017)

One assumes that the Scottish Conservatives had a form of checking/vetting and these two new councillors passed with flying colours.

Of course it is the fault of the Tory party.:blah:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2017)

Hammond does a whoopsie, seems to be contagious 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...r-muddle/ar-BBBekMi?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hammond does a whoopsie, seems to be contagious 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...r-muddle/ar-BBBekMi?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

He best watch himself or The Supreme Leader will have him taking the bins out.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He best watch himself or The Supreme Leader will have him taking the bins out.
		
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Funny how a Labour woman makes a Â£30 million error and the usual suspects nearly wet their pants.
A Tory man makes a Â£20 BILLION error and it goes under the radar.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Funny how a Labour woman makes a Â£30 million error and the usual suspects nearly wet their pants.
A Tory man makes a Â£20 BILLION error and it goes under the radar.
		
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he just mis-spoke - easily done.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2017)

SLAB suspend seven labour councillors for forming an administration with the Tories in Aberdeen.

I don't know who deserves the most scorn SLAB or the councillors.


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## SocketRocket (May 17, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SLAB suspend seven labour councillors for forming an administration with the Tories in Aberdeen.

I don't know who deserves the most scorn SLAB or the councillors.

Click to expand...

Neither, you do for using such trivia.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2017)

Lib Dem logic.

Let's have another EU referendum as we were not told the truth and folk might have changed their minds. [despite what the polls say]

Let's not have another Scottish referendum because we don't think folk have changed their minds. [despite what the polls say]


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## ger147 (May 18, 2017)

So a month to the day since the GE wad called and the latest polls are pretty much the same as they were a month ago.

Tories still on 47/48% with Labour stuck around 29/30%.

I'm guessing Paddy Power will have already paid out on the result...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

Ah - but as in _The Battle of Helm's Deep_ (in LotR), when all seems lost and Helm's Deep will fall - will Corbyn not appear - Gandalf like - astride his mighty steed McCluskey.  Brandishing his gleaming manifesto and - followed by a vast hoard of Corbynistas - Corbyn will swoop down on the awesome might of The Supreme Leaders army of orcs and uruk-hai.  And victory will be his.

Or something like that


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2017)

ger147 said:



			So a month to the day since the GE wad called and the latest polls are pretty much the same as they were a month ago.

Tories still on 47/48% with Labour stuck around 29/30%.

I'm guessing Paddy Power will have already paid out on the result...
		
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UK Labour up to 32% in some polls.
Under the press/media logic of reporting the Scottish Cooncil results, that must be a fantastic victory for Labour


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## ger147 (May 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK Labour up to 32% in some polls.
Under the press/media logic of reporting the Scottish Cooncil results, that must be a fantastic victory for Labour

Click to expand...

That was the average of the most recent polls i.e. no change.


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## FairwayDodger (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - but as in _The Battle of Helm's Deep_ (in LotR), when all seems lost and Helm's Deep will fall - will Corbyn not appear - Gandalf like - astride his mighty steed McCluskey.  Brandishing his gleaming manifesto and - followed by a vast hoard of Corbynistas - Corbyn will swoop down on the awesome might of The Supreme Leaders army of orcs and uruk-hai.  And victory will be his.

Or something like that
		
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More Denethor than Gandalf, sadly.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2017)

In the name of the wee man...............Just viewed the 'Ruth Davidson Scottish Conservative Party' General Election TV broadcast.

Seriously, the entire thing was............ vote no to a new Scottish Referendum.

Leaflet from my standing SNP MP........no mention of Independence anywhere on it.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2017)

Apologies to those that don't like The Sun but it was the only link to the video I could find.......

https://www.thesun.co.uk/video/news...oneysupermarket-treatment-in-election-parody/


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - but as in _The Battle of Helm's Deep_ (in LotR), when all seems lost and Helm's Deep will fall - will Corbyn not appear - Gandalf like - astride his mighty steed McCluskey.  Brandishing his gleaming manifesto and - followed by a vast hoard of Corbynistas - Corbyn will swoop down on the awesome might of The Supreme Leaders army of orcs and uruk-hai.  And victory will be his.

Or something like that
		
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He is lacking elves and a fearsome dwarf. If only..............


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2017)

Also saw this one. Love the headline........


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In the name of the wee man...............Just viewed the 'Ruth Davidson Scottish Conservative Party' General Election TV broadcast.

Seriously, the entire thing was............ vote no to a new Scottish Referendum.

Leaflet from my standing SNP MP........no mention of Independence anywhere on it.
		
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Are they supposed to do what the SNP want? Should they just roll over? They are highlighting this as that is how they will win many a vote, it makes sense. The SNP don't need to mention it as the clue is in their name. Kind of obvious really.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2017)

Looking through the Tory twitter feed while the leaders debate is going on they seem to have a new catchphrase. Almost every tweet is about Brexit and the "Coalition of Chaos"....


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## User62651 (May 18, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are they supposed to do what the SNP want? Should they just roll over? They are highlighting this as that is how they will win many a vote, it makes sense. The SNP don't need to mention it as the clue is in their name. Kind of obvious really.
		
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Get that but this a general election, not an Indyref on 8th June, it is bizarre. Anyway how can they campaign against another Indyref, that's been voted through by a majority of MSPs at Holyrood already, it is only the PM that can say no so they hold that power already so why campaign on it? I know we've been here before but the sheer hypocrisy of calling a GE and pushing through Brexit on her terms but not allowing a Holyrood parliamentary approved Indyref2 because it doesn't suit Mays personal agenda is not right and undemocratic. May is no leader and even dangerous with power.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

And so - no Great Leader on the ITV Leaders Debate and consequently no Corbyn.  And no Great Leader to sell and/or defend her manifesto to the public.  As Leanne Wood said in her opening words - was the Great Leader frightened about standing up, sell the manifesto and take the questions?  Well given the reporting I have heard on her manifesto maybe she made the safe decision.

Is The Great Leader simply taking for granted that she'll get the majority of the votes on the grounds of Brexit and her being better than Corbyn in getting what she wants.  She knew that she could put just about whatever she wanted in the manifesto and she'd still get the Brexit vote.  But maybe she miscalculated a little - the Social Care payment policy does not seem to have gone down very well.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Get that but this a general election, not an Indyref on 8th June.
		
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I get that but the strategy is sound. Plenty of Scots don't want another referendum so they are trying to tap into that. Keep putting it in people's minds and they start to think it is true. A bit like NS constantly referring to Westminster being the bogey man. Count the Westminster references and note how the word is always used in a negative way. 

Coalition of chaos is being used in a similar way. There is no sign in any way that this would occur but the Tories keep going back to it hoping it sinks into people's consciousness. Strong and stable........

At the moment these are sticking better than the other parties efforts. They need to work harder to get their phrases heard more clearly, move the agenda to their terms.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2017)

SiLH - any criticism of Corbyn for not taking part in the leaders debate? After all, he is leader of the Labour Party and as such should "lead". All he's done by refusing to take part is follow rather than lead.

I'm not that bothered whether any or all of them take part in the debates or not. It seems like we're going down the American route with this sort of thing. Why not go the whole hog and have Simon Cowell and a panel of judges hitting a button and a big red cross coming up for any poilicies they don't like.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			SiLH - any criticism of Corbyn for not taking part in the leaders debate? After all, he is leader of the Labour Party and as such should "lead". All he's done by refusing to take part is follow rather than lead.

I'm not that bothered whether any or all of them take part in the debates or not. It seems like we're going down the American route with this sort of thing. Why not go the whole hog and have Simon Cowell and a panel of judges hitting a button and a big red cross coming up for any poilicies they don't like.
		
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He said he'd take part if May took part.  He knows that no matter how well he actually did the likes of the Daily Mail  would rip into him on anything they could - and without the opportunity for any balance with his main opponent for PM being present - why should he do that?

Actually given the May Manifesto maybe he should have asked for a late entry - I'm sure he could have shredded May's Manifesto


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - no Great Leader on the ITV Leaders Debate and consequently no Corbyn.  And no Great Leader to sell and/or defend her manifesto to the public.  As Leanne Wood said in her opening words - was the Great Leader frightened about standing up, sell the manifesto and take the questions?  Well given the reporting I have heard on her manifesto maybe she made the safe decision.

Is The Great Leader simply taking for granted that she'll get the majority of the votes on the grounds of Brexit and her being better than Corbyn in getting what she wants.  She knew that she could put just about whatever she wanted in the manifesto and she'd still get the Brexit vote.  But maybe she miscalculated a little - the Social Care payment policy does not seem to have gone down very well.
		
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If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to grow up a bit.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He said he'd take part if May took part.  He knows that no matter how well he actually did the likes of the Daily Mail  would rip into him on anything they could - and without the opportunity for any balance with his main opponent for PM being present - why should he do that?

Actually given the May Manifesto maybe he should have asked for a late entry - I'm sure he could have shredded May's Manifesto
		
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Surely it was a chance for him to stand up and defend his policies while at the same time scoring some fairly cheap points about May being absent and not able to defend her policies.

Using your same argument - Theresa May knows that no matter how well she actually did people like you would rip into her on anything they could - why should she do that? 

As I said before I don't particularly care about having a leaders debate and would rather see them each individually being properly questioned on their policies in an interview and taking unscripted questions from the audience. Fat chance of that happening though.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 18, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to grow up a bit.
		
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Also hard to get a reasoned point across on any of these political threads without them being dismissed and scoffed. All turned into a one man show


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## Hacker Khan (May 19, 2017)

Think there is a slightly rude word in there for those of you who are easily offended.


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## Hacker Khan (May 19, 2017)

And if there are any youngsters (yes I know it is a old mans golf forum but you never know) out there that have not registered to vote, or anyone who can not be arsed to vote then watch this.  And it does contain some very fruity language.

[video=youtube_share;shIOZdEzkiU]https://youtu.be/shIOZdEzkiU[/video]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to grow up a bit.
		
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I think you might start respecting that some might have views that are different from yours.

What I have posted I heard both last night during the debate (did you watch?) and also from other commentators including some who support her.

So please tell me what aspect of what I posted it is that you don't like and is childish (as I have to grow up a bit).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it was a chance for him to stand up and defend his policies while at the same time scoring some fairly cheap points about May being absent and not able to defend her policies.

Using your same argument - Theresa May knows that no matter how well she actually did people like you would rip into her on anything they could - why should she do that? 

As I said before I don't particularly care about having a leaders debate and would rather see them each individually being properly questioned on their policies in an interview and taking unscripted questions from the audience. Fat chance of that happening though.
		
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Yes - he could have.  Why didn't May take part? - because she felt she could only cause herself harm with little or nothing to be gained.  Why would Corbyn take part if he couldn't attack May's policies when he knew that the Daily Mail, Sun, Express etc and would rip him to bits regardless of how well or poorly he did?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it was a chance for him to stand up and defend his policies while at the same time scoring some fairly cheap points about May being absent and not able to defend her policies.

Using your same argument - *Theresa May knows that no matter how well she actually did people like you would rip into her on anything they could - *why should she do that? 

As I said before I don't particularly care about having a leaders debate and would rather see them each individually being properly questioned on their policies in an interview and taking unscripted questions from the audience. Fat chance of that happening though.
		
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As it happens having heard (not yet read) a bit more about May's Manifesto there is a good fair bit of it I can actually support and agree with.  Specifically I was delighted to see that one of her guiding principles is:

_...(to) reject the cult of selfish individualism _

If she can succeed in basing her premiership and delivering policies that back this up then I will be very impressed and will :clap: :clap: her loudly.

Unfortunately I think that policies based upon this principle will be difficult to sell to an electorate that has grown since the days of Thatcher as one that is encouraged to look after itself, right to buy, charity begins at home, taxation bad, keep the money you earn, why should I support those who don't work - wasters.  Why should I...?

It's going to be a good one to pull off.  There is a fair bit I have heard that I don't particularly like - but on the basis of that one statement

_...(to) reject the cult of selfish individualism _

I welcome (I think) the first Tocialist - Theresa May.  It is a pity that so much of what drove individuals to vote to Leave the EU and that will determine what our country is like post-Brexit and the policies that May has to deliver were - IMO - based upon individual and rather selfish feelings

Let's see how I feel when I understand more of what she proposes and the detail - and how she gets on.


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## bobmac (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think you might start respecting that some might have views that are different from yours.
		
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:rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

bobmac said:



			:rofl:
		
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I respect your right to laugh and disagree with me.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

The political editor on radio 5 late last night thought it was right that the two main leaders stayed away from last nights debate. Why would the two major leaders of the two major party's in the country want to get mixed up in the petty squabbles with the minor political leaders who's only agenda last night appeared to be to gang up on UKIP (no real problem with that) rather than debate any real issues.  Is was all about putting their own message across and not debating.  Some very childish people bickering on stage, anyone who thinks that's relevant in todays world needs to lie down in a dark room.

Much better idea taking place where the two main leaders can answer (if they have the courage) the real question's that will be put forward by the public. The public can then make up their own mind when they hear the answer.


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## bobmac (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I respect your right to laugh and disagree with me.
		
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I don't disagree with the statement, I just found it funny that you said it


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## Hobbit (May 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The political editor on radio 5 late last night thought it was right that the two main leaders stayed away from last nights debate. Why would the two major leaders of the two major party's in the country want to get mixed up in the petty squabbles with the minor political leaders who's only agenda last night appeared to be to gang up on UKIP (no real problem with that) rather than debate any real issues.  Is was all about putting their own message across and not debating.  Some very childish people bickering on stage, anyone who thinks that's relevant in todays world needs to lie down in a dark room.

Much better idea taking place where the two main leaders can answer (if they have the courage) the real question's that will be put forward by the public. The public can then make up their own mind when they hear the answer.
		
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I thought last night's debate started pretty well but it soon degenerated into a willy waving contest.

As for an incumbent not entering a debate, I'd like to use a business analogy. A customer(voter) knows all an incumbent's failings. After all, they see them in real time and they are also highlighted by competitors - no friends in business. The customer(voter) hears how good the opposition are through marketing and the usual selling/relationship thing. The hardest business to win is repeat business. The customer knows you warts and all.

I understand why May didn't attend but, equally, this isn't a business. I'm disappointed she did show us she is robust enough to defend the 'business.'


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

Unfortunately I feel shows like last night, and it was a show, not a debate, does more harm for the political process.  A straight forward Q&A which is happening for the two major party's is happening were ducking and weaving will be seen by all and highlighted by the presenter I'm sure.

All those that took part last night IMO did a disservice to politics in the same way as PMQs does now.


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## bobmac (May 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately I feel shows like last night, and it was a show, not a debate, does more harm for the political process.  A straight forward Q&A which is happening for the two major party's is happening were ducking and weaving will be seen by all and highlighted by the presenter I'm sure.

All those that took part last night IMO did a disservice to politics in the same way as PMQs does now.
		
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Ah, but it's what happens in America and we must always copy what they do


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

bobmac said:



			Ah, but it's what happens in America and we must always copy what they do
		
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And look what happened there and the same protagonists who poo pooed debates in the past I suspect are now all for it, supposedly, or does it suit their current agenda.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I thought last night's debate started pretty well but it soon degenerated into a willy waving contest.

As for an incumbent not entering a debate, I'd like to use a business analogy. A customer(voter) knows all an incumbent's failings. After all, they see them in real time and they are also highlighted by competitors - no friends in business. The customer(voter) hears how good the opposition are through marketing and the usual selling/relationship thing. The hardest business to win is repeat business. The customer knows you warts and all.

*I understand why May didn't attend but, equally, this isn't a business. I'm disappointed she did show us she is robust enough to defend the 'business.'*

Click to expand...

I assume you meant that _she didn't show us_  

And I agree.  If she is so sure of her ground and is so confident of her abilities (strong and stable) to stand up for the UK in front of the EU and sell our demands - then surely she can stand up for the Tories in front of the UK public and sell her manifesto.

If I am selling myself to a future employer as being good customer facing - the employer will not go just by a telephone interview or interview with recruitment consultant - he will expect me to sit or stand up in front of them to demonstrate my abilities.


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## ger147 (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I assume you meant that _she didn't show us_  

And I agree.  If she is so sure of her ground and is so confident of her abilities (strong and stable) to stand up for the UK in front of the EU and sell our demands - then surely she can stand up for the Tories in front of the UK public and sell her manifesto.

If I am selling myself to a future employer as being good customer facing - the employer will not go just by a telephone interview or interview with recruitment consultant - he will expect me to sit or stand up in front of them to demonstrate my abilities.
		
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She'll be doing that shortly, can't remember the date for her live appearance on TV in front of Joe Public.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

ger147 said:



			She'll be doing that shortly, can't remember the date for her live appearance on TV in front of Joe Public.
		
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I want to see her debating - not just answer questions - as she'll have to debate in her negotiations with her EU counterparts.


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## Hobbit (May 19, 2017)

ger147 said:



			She'll be doing that shortly, can't remember the date for her live appearance on TV in front of Joe Public.
		
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I can see this working better than the leaders debates as the person asking the question is rarely looking to point score or entrap.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I want to see her debating - not just answer questions - as she'll have to debate in her negotiations with her EU counterparts.
		
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Why must she debate and with who as none of the others seem to want to debate just shout and but in whenever someone else opens there mouth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Why must she debate and with who as none of the others seem to want to debate just shout and but in whenever someone else opens there mouth.
		
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Not really a very good reason - not really...

That said - given many of the comments made about the EU folks - I'm thinking she might well have to be shouting to be heard


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

Well who should she debate with. You, Doon, everyone else that lost?


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## Leftie (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			......... as she'll have to debate in her negotiations with her EU counterparts.
		
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Really?   I always thought that these people were basically "figureheads" who did all the posturing, and that the _real_ negotiations were carried out in the background by more qualified people.

Well, you learn something new every day.


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## ger147 (May 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I want to see her debating - not just answer questions - as she'll have to debate in her negotiations with her EU counterparts.
		
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Then you should be more specific.

The post you made that I replied to stated you wanted to see her present her manifesto to the public. She is doing that on 29th May.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Well who should she debate with. You, Doon, everyone else that lost?
		
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I'm think you have become  confused once again
My last post on here was 272


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'm think you have become  confused once again
My last post on here was 272
		
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To busy on your blog


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			To busy on your blog
		
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He's been preoccupied waiting under his bridge for a particular Goat.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2017)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unholy-union/#comments

Chris Cairns.......hits nail on head again.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unholy-union/#comments

Chris Cairns.......hits nail on head again.
		
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What's the problem? Getting worried that some Scots will vote tactically? Or maybe they're seeing sense and are worried that the SNP's vote buying policies are wrecking more than just the economy, e.g. education?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What's the problem? Getting worried that some Scots will vote tactically? Or maybe they're seeing sense and are worried that the SNP's vote buying policies are wrecking more than just the economy, e.g. education?
		
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Tactical voting is a two edged sword.

I may considering voting LibDem.

Scottish Labour might just as well pack up shop after this election.
I can't see anyone voting for a party with no soul/conscious.

PS
The Shirells singing 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow' would be a fitting backsound to Chris's cartoon.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tactical voting is a two edged sword.

I may considering voting LibDem.

Scottish Labour might just as well pack up shop after this election.
I can't see anyone voting for a party with no soul/conscious.

PS
The Shirells singing 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow' would be a fitting backsound to Chris's cartoon.
		
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I think the LibDems experienced that song during the coalition, and were crucified for it at the last election


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tactical voting is a two edged sword.

I may considering voting LibDem.

Scottish Labour might just as well pack up shop after this election.
*I can't see anyone voting for a party with no soul/conscious.
*
PS
The Shirells singing 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow' would be a fitting backsound to Chris's cartoon.
		
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But people vote SNP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2017)

Leftie said:



			Really?   I always thought that these people were basically "figureheads" who did all the posturing, and that the _real_ negotiations were carried out in the background by more qualified people.

Well, you learn something new every day.
		
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I'm afraid you may well be right as that relegates May's strength and stability to secondary importance - as it would also do Corbyn's hoplessness - because neither May not Corbyn would have much to do with the negotiations.  Rather nullifies the point of May selling strength and stability as the main reason to vote Tory


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

Latest YouGov polls have Mays lead halved in a week.
Down to single figures now and neck and neck with an opposition alliance.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest YouGov polls have Mays lead halved in a week.
Down to single figures now and neck and neck with an opposition alliance.
		
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I think the Tories Social Care pledge is an own goal. The more its scrutinised the worse it reads. I expect the opposition will have a field day with it.

It becomes a battle between significantly higher taxation of Labour and the emotive, questionable, social care package.

If Labour can keep Diane Abbott away from the media, and the Tories are foolish enough to give Boris Johnson air time it might get very interesting.


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## JohnnyDee (May 21, 2017)

Anyone see Damien Green on Marr this morning? Strong & Steady? No, Weak & Wobbly... and clueless too. It was a complete car crash.

And as for the last 3-4 minutes of the same show when he appeared alongside John McDonnell? He was completely owned and exposed as nothing but a self-serving hypocrite.

The current gang of Tories look next to useless outside their stage managed bubble and it's no surprise May is terrified to appear on a platform with any of the others.

Oh but hang on, of course, silly me. It's not that she's windy at all. Because knocking on a few hundred doors for the press pack gets the message across to the entire electorate so much more effectively than participating in a live TV debate likely to be watched by 10,000,000 + voters.

Do they really think we are all so moronic that we will suck up such drivel? &#128512;


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Anyone see Damien Green on Marr this morning? Strong & Steady? No, Weak & Wobbly... and clueless too. It was a complete car crash.

And as for the last 3-4 minutes of the same show when he appeared alongside John McDonnell? He was completely owned and exposed as nothing but a self-serving hypocrite.

The current gang of Tories look next to useless outside their stage managed bubble and it's no surprise May is terrified to appear on a platform with any of the others.

Oh but hang on, of course, silly me. It's not that she's windy at all. Because knocking on a few hundred doors for the press pack gets the message across to the entire electorate so much more effectively than participating in a live TV debate likely to be watched by 10,000,000 + voters.

Do they really think we are all so moronic that we will suck up such drivel? &#128512;
		
Click to expand...

Green trying to defend his Dementia/Stroke/MS tax was desperately horrible.
McDonald totally sandbagged him with his previous job making lots of money working for deregulated energy companies.
They really are the Nasty Party again.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Anyone see Damien Green on Marr this morning? Strong & Steady? No, Weak & Wobbly... and clueless too. It was a complete car crash.

And as for the last 3-4 minutes of the same show when he appeared alongside John McDonnell? He was completely owned and exposed as nothing but a self-serving hypocrite.

The current gang of Tories look next to useless outside their stage managed bubble and it's no surprise May is terrified to appear on a platform with any of the others.

Oh but hang on, of course, silly me. It's not that she's windy at all. Because knocking on a few hundred doors for the press pack gets the message across to the entire electorate so much more effectively than participating in a live TV debate likely to be watched by 10,000,000 + voters.

Do they really think we are all so moronic that we will suck up such drivel? &#62976;
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Green trying to defend his Dementia/Stroke/MS tax was desperately horrible.
McDonald totally sandbagged him with his previous job making lots of money working for deregulated energy companies.
They really are the Nasty Party again.
		
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I thought I was a somewhat single minded in my views but you two are unbelievable.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought I was a somewhat single minded in my views but you two are unbelievable.
		
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Thank you, the exact opposite of your views is what I aspire to.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you, the exact opposite of your views is what I aspire to.
		
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Yes, it has been noticed by people you have strange views.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

Good ol impartial BBC Scotland....the visit Kelso and where do they go to ask how folk are going to vote.....the Cricket Ground and the Racecourse :lol:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it has been noticed by people you have strange views.
		
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If 'people or WE'........ you mean your fellow group of three UKIP/right wing Tory supporters then I am even more delighted.:whoo:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 21, 2017)

The new theory in Scotland is that the Tories now realise how bad Brexit is going to be that, before the election, they will launch a number of policies like the Dementia Tax to deliberately lose the election.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The new theory in Scotland is that the Tories now realise how bad Brexit is going to be that, before the election, they will launch a number of policies like the Dementia Tax to deliberately lose the election.
		
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Any proof of the theory or another fishing trips.


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## Hacker Khan (May 21, 2017)

Seems the tories have upset a few of our more senior members of society with their ideas on paying for social care. Well I suppose after targeting school pupils, anyone ill and anyone on benefits then they may as well make things worse for them as well. Strong and stabley as she goes......


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Anyone see Damien Green on Marr this morning? Strong & Steady? No, Weak & Wobbly... and clueless too. It was a complete car crash.

And as for the last 3-4 minutes of the same show when he appeared alongside John McDonnell? He was completely owned and exposed as nothing but a self-serving hypocrite.

The current gang of Tories look next to useless outside their stage managed bubble and it's no surprise May is terrified to appear on a platform with any of the others.

Oh but hang on, of course, silly me. It's not that she's windy at all. Because knocking on a few hundred doors for the press pack gets the message across to the entire electorate so much more effectively than participating in a live TV debate likely to be watched by 10,000,000 + voters.

Do they really think we are all so moronic that we will suck up such drivel? &#62976;
		
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I must be moronic. I thought McDonnell definitely won on points, but car crash? I would expect a Shadow Chancellor to know the numbers better. Car crash... rose tinted spectacles are colouring your vision.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good ol impartial BBC Scotland....the visit Kelso and where do they go to ask how folk are going to vote.....the Cricket Ground and the Racecourse :lol:
		
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Why is it wrong to visit a cricket club and a race course? You really are weird...


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## JohnnyDee (May 21, 2017)

Just to clarify. My "moronic" reference was in respect of this.

Does anyone really believe that May's reticence to participate in live TV debates is because she thinks getting her message across more effectively can be achieved by knocking on a few doors (for the media) and not appearing in front of millions?

Fair enough if people do but I'm afraid I'm not buying it.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If 'people or WE'........ you mean your fellow group of three UKIP/right wing Tory supporters then I am even more delighted.:whoo:
		
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I meant people that don't live under bridges like you and your little circle of Trolls.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 21, 2017)

Gents
Decorum please 
Thank you


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			My moronic comment was in respect of this.

Does anyone really believe that May's reticence to participate in live TV debates is because she thinks getting her message across more effectively can be achieved by knocking on a few doors (for the media) and not appearing in front of millions?

Fair enough if people do but I'm afraid I'm not buying it.
		
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Maybe you have an overactive dislike of her.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 21, 2017)

For the last time , no personal insults / comments, criticise ideas not individuals
No further warnings etc blah


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## FairwayDodger (May 21, 2017)

Seems a bit unfair that the SNP got two representatives in the Scottish leader's debate. Didn't stop Nicola getting a bit of a kicking though.


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## JohnnyDee (May 21, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you have an overactive dislike of her.
		
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Au contraire, I have an overactive dislike of those in authority (irrespective of their party politics) trying to feed the masses pure and utter drivel as a smokescreen to attempt to hide the real facts.

Simply that.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2017)

JohnnyDee said:



			Au contraire, I have an overactive dislike of those in authority (irrespective of their party politics) trying to feed the masses pure and utter drivel as a smokescreen to attempt to hide the real facts.

Simply that.
		
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So your alternative is?


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## shagster (May 22, 2017)

any one but may and her useless band


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## PhilTheFragger (May 22, 2017)

Very interesting how this weekend had seen a turnaround in the polls.
Labours manifesto on the face of it looks highly attractive, compared to the rather glum Tory one, which as a blue Tory leaves me a bit cold.
Their Uni fees policy will be highly attractive especially to younger voters

BUT how are they going to pay for it all? Massively increasing corporation tax will generate a lot of money, but that is coming at a time when Brexit is happening when we want to keep business here and not let it drift abroad.

I fear that this tax increase will have a negative affect on the economy in terms of corporate investment, jobs R & D etc
You will see more big companies moving to Eire where the rate is 12.5%

Think that the public is totally fed up with however many years of austerity it has been, they need to be cut some slack and they ain't seeing it in the Tory camp.

This could get very interesting indeed


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Not 100% sure of my facts on devolved welfare.

Is it not the case that if May introduces her draconian welfare bills to England and Wales it will force people in those countries who have family members with long term illness to consider moving to Scotland.

Perhaps she has a cunning plan.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2017)

Phil, I think you are quite correct. The May manifesto was bleak, Labour are offering milk and honey. Forget how to pay for it, they are going to attract votes from those who are just fed up. TM's arrogance may cost her some seats. The Tories need to start the week well or momentum may start to build against them. Their current argument of purely being nasty to JC is starting to look thin and bullying. They need to get some positive messages out.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Britain Elects poll has the same results as You Gov.
Tories lead cut to 9%, momentum is moving fast.

What a great joy a hung Parliament would be with the only Green MP holding the balance........Strong and Stable.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Phil, I think you are quite correct. The May manifesto was bleak, Labour are offering milk and honey. Forget how to pay for it, they are going to attract votes from those who are just fed up. TM's arrogance may cost her some seats. The Tories need to start the week well or momentum may start to build against them. Their current argument of purely being nasty to JC is starting to look thin and bullying. They need to get some positive messages out.
		
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Seems like a big own goal by the Tories although I would suggest the fuel payments for most on here is a big red herring and most said in the past they didn't see the point of some people getting it. All they have to do is state who it will affect.

Labour will cost the country a fortune but the majority of those that will vote Labour wont be doing the numbers and will not care.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Britain Elects poll has the same results as You Gov.
Tories lead cut to 9%, momentum is moving fast.

What a great joy a hung Parliament would be with the only Green MP holding the balance........Strong and Stable.

Click to expand...

Looks like Independence is becoming a weak and withering policy https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/scottish-independence-voting-intention-no-57-yes-4/


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like Independence is becoming a weak and withering policy https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/scottish-independence-voting-intention-no-57-yes-4/

Click to expand...

Wrong thread again.


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## JohnnyDee (May 22, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Phil, I think you are quite correct. The May manifesto was bleak, Labour are offering milk and honey. Forget how to pay for it, they are going to attract votes from those who are just fed up. TM's arrogance may cost her some seats. The Tories need to start the week well or momentum may start to build against them. Their current argument of purely being nasty to JC is starting to look thin and bullying. They need to get some positive messages out.
		
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This exactly!

They (Tories) have one song and they've sung it far too often. What are they actually proposing to do other than make personal attacks on JC etc?

It's the politics of the tabloids and gutter press and the country deserves better.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wrong thread again.
		
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You mean the SNP aren't after independence anymore and has nothing to do with a GE. Good to know, perhaps a Mod should close the other thread if it's irrelevant now.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Bill Poster in Kent.

'ONLY A STRONG TORY GOVERNMENT CAN SOLVE THE CHAOS IT HAS CAUSED'


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

According to FT the Dementia Tax was a last minute addition to the Tory manifesto.
Most cabinet minister were unaware of it's inclusion.
Wow. 
The 'lose this Election because  we are stuffed by Brexit theory' grows.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			According to FT the Dementia Tax was a last minute addition to the Tory manifesto.
Most cabinet minister were unaware of it's inclusion.
Wow. 
The 'lose this Election because  we are stuffed by Brexit theory' grows.

Click to expand...

Any proof of the theory yet or is it a pimple on your nose.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Any proof of the theory yet or is it a pimple on your nose.
		
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Does seem far fetched but let's see if they do anything else to alienate their core support.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does seem far fetched but let's see if they do anything else to alienate their core support.
		
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They do seem to be trying very hard. The Tory Up here hasn't even been seen so he could be about to lose his seat back to the Lib Dems.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems a bit unfair that the SNP got two representatives in the Scottish leader's debate. Didn't stop Nicola getting a bit of a kicking though.
		
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Or you could argue that the Unionist Alliance had three representitives

Patrick Harvey was the only winner......he actually answered the questions.
The rest were there usual shouty selves, total waste of time.
We should have had the Westminster MP's on Muddle, Wee Angus etc.

Sorry that should have been four representatives  .I was dismissing the UKIP creature.


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## jp5 (May 22, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Phil, I think you are quite correct. The May manifesto was bleak, Labour are offering milk and honey. Forget how to pay for it, they are going to attract votes from those who are just fed up.
		
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To be fair, out of the Labour and Tory manifestos, only the Labour one was actually costed.

People may disagree with their plans to raise taxes on the wealthy, but that is their costed plan. I think the "the rich will up sticks" argument is overplayed - there are plenty of places with better tax arrangements than the UK for these people but they choose to stay here.

As for the Tories - a completely uncosted manifesto. No indication of how they will pay for leaving the single market or the reduction in immigration. It's amazing the media hasn't picked up on this more. If it was Labour I imagine it would be front page news.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2017)

jp5, you are correct in that it was costed. My slightly flippant remark relates to the fact there are a lot of things have to go their way in terms of the economy, Brexit etc for the money to be there to work. The reality is they will be a long way short and they will need to borrow heavily. That is my reading of it. They are however offering something and that may well be starting to appeal to people who are fed up with feeling left out or forgotten.


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## User62651 (May 22, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			jp5, you are correct in that it was costed. My slightly flippant remark relates to the fact there are a lot of things have to go their way in terms of the economy, Brexit etc for the money to be there to work. The reality is they will be a long way short and they will need to borrow heavily. That is my reading of it. *They are however offering something and that may well be starting to appeal to people who are fed up with feeling left out or forgotten.*

Click to expand...

Not young people apparently, at least a quarter under 30s unregistered and with today last day to register still 7 million of all ages have chosen not to register (subject to a last minute rush). Apathy always a big factor sadly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Very interesting how this weekend had seen a turnaround in the polls.
Labours manifesto on the face of it looks highly attractive, compared to the rather glum Tory one, which as a blue Tory leaves me a bit cold.
Their Uni fees policy will be highly attractive especially to younger voters

BUT how are they going to pay for it all? Massively increasing corporation tax will generate a lot of money, but that is coming at a time when Brexit is happening when we want to keep business here and not let it drift abroad.

I fear that this tax increase will have a negative affect on the economy in terms of corporate investment, jobs R & D etc
You will see more big companies moving to Eire where the rate is 12.5%

Think that the public is totally fed up with however many years of austerity it has been, they need to be cut some slack and they ain't seeing it in the Tory camp.

This could get very interesting indeed
		
Click to expand...

Though much in the manifestos will have to be kicked into the long grass if we don't get a decent deal from the EU and especially if we have to resort to the _No Deal_ nuclear option


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or you could argue that the Unionist Alliance had three representitives

Patrick Harvey was the only winner......he actually answered the questions.
The rest were there usual shouty selves, total waste of time.
We should have had the Westminster MP's on Muddle, Wee Angus etc.

Sorry that should have been four representatives  .I was dismissing the UKIP creature.
		
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Not at all, the pro union parties agree on that issue but not on much else. The greens have sacrificed all their other priorities to give the snp a clear run. Sad to admit I used to vote for them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Does seem far fetched but let's see if they do anything else to alienate their core support.
		
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_
â€œWe do not believe in untrammelled free markets. We reject the cult of selfish individualism. We abhor social division, injustice, unfairness and inequality. We see rigid dogma and ideology not just as needless but as dangerous.â€_

Not exactly the thinking behind Tory policies of the last four decades and how they have been sold to the electorate...in fact this sounds more like something a Christian democrat would have at the core of their beliefs and policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

jp5 said:



			To be fair, out of the Labour and Tory manifestos, only the Labour one was actually costed.

People may disagree with their plans to raise taxes on the wealthy, but that is their costed plan. I think the "the rich will up sticks" argument is overplayed - there are plenty of places with better tax arrangements than the UK for these people but they choose to stay here.

As for the Tories - a completely uncosted manifesto. *No indication of how they will pay for leaving the single market or the reduction in immigration*. It's amazing the media hasn't picked up on this more. If it was Labour I imagine it would be front page news.
		
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I note that it is reported today (in my _*i *_newspaper) the Centre for Economics and Business Research estimate that the best case scenario for UK leaving the EU would result in a 1.4% gross loss in GDP; or Â£25bn a year.  With worst-case scenario leading to a 2% loss in GDP - equating to Â£36bn a year.  

Then taking into account the impact of slashing immigration to under 100,000 - the OBR estimates that reducing net migration to 185,000 by 2021 could cost Â£5.9bn (reduced tax take and higher prop of non-working people).

And so against that background and faced with such numbers perhaps not surprising that the Tory manifesto is uncosted and May trying to get a load of money for social care out of inheritances - because there isn't going to be any from anywhere else without big hikes in taxes.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_
â€œWe do not believe in untrammelled free markets. We reject the cult of selfish individualism. We abhor social division, injustice, unfairness and inequality. We see rigid dogma and ideology not just as needless but as dangerous.â€_

Not exactly the thinking behind Tory policies of the last four decades and how they have been sold to the electorate...in fact this sounds more like something a Christian democrat would have at the core of their beliefs and policies.
		
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Sounds like deceitful spin to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sounds like deceitful spin to me.
		
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Well - her first go at 'wealth' distribution - the dementia tax and associated increased starting point for paying social care costs - isn't going that well.  I predict a Tory 'walk-back' on the dementia tax today - though it won't be presented by May - as she is strong and stable.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - her first go at 'wealth' distribution - the dementia tax and associated increased starting point for paying social care costs - isn't going that well.  I predict a Tory 'walk-back' on the dementia tax today - though it won't be presented by May - as she is strong and stable.
		
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They will probably hope everyone forgets about it....


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			They will probably hope everyone forgets about it....
		
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Plenty of time for that. Some other clangers to be dropped by all party's before the day.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Strong and Stable has just done Panic and U Turn.:lol:

Manifesto Of Chaos.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			They will probably hope everyone forgets about it....
		
Click to expand...

Huh - well May has announced that there will be a consultation - and that there *will* be a cap.  So where does she find the money now lost to the exchequer due to the cap.  

May - nice and stable and strong - first sign of a push back from the electorate and her MPs and she caves in and a U-turn.  So this is just the sort of leader we want when facing the EU in the negotiations.

And so she blames _'fake claims, fear and scaremongering'_ by Corbyn.  That is so sad and pathetic it's almost funny.

And so what is the cap Theresa?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

She is losing the plot now in Wales.

Desperately searching around for a friendly journalist to quickly change the subject.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			They will probably hope everyone forgets about it....
		
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Old Skier said:



			Plenty of time for that. Some other clangers to be dropped by all party's before the day.
		
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A sure sign of missing the mark is when you have to point out you were making a joke...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			A sure sign of missing the mark is when you have to point out you were making a joke... 

Click to expand...

I think 'we' all got it Karen


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

.....and we all thought 2016 was a weird year.
Where is this one going to end ?


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

Looks like SNP not only adopt Tory austerity measures but resort to slurring the nurse who spoke out against the leader of the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Woops
Check out the lifestyle of the 'food bank' nurse.

I think she will get a bit more than the five minutes of fame she bargained for.:lol:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pertinent-questions/#comments


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## ger147 (May 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like SNP not only adopt Tory austerity measures but resort to slurring the nurse who spoke out against the leader of the SNP.
		
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Probably best not to plead poverty and talk about needing foobanks etc. when your Twitter feed has pics of your latest holiday in NY...


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Woe betide anyone with the timerity to criticise the snp. The whole snp party machine and associated cybernat trolls turned on her, as they have done with others in the past.

Full scale intrusive investigation, spin and downright lies about her. Just nasty people.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Probably best not to plead poverty and talk about needing foobanks etc. when your Twitter feed has pics of your latest holiday in NY...
		
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Wings the blog for the gullible.


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## ger147 (May 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Wings the blog for the gullible.
		
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I didn't see it on Wings, I don't click on anything from that tripe.

It's all over the mainstream press - NY holiday, works for BUPA, daughter at private school etc.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Woe betide anyone with the timerity to criticise the snp. The whole snp party machine and associated cybernat trolls turned on her, as they have done with others in the past.

Full scale intrusive investigation, spin and downright lies about her. Just nasty people.
		
Click to expand...

I think it was The Daily Record that broke the story.


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## ger147 (May 22, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I didn't see it on Wings, I don't click on anything from that tripe.

It's all over the mainstream press - NY holiday, works for BUPA, daughter at private school etc.
		
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I have no idea if it's true or not but this is where I saw it...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/foodbank-nurse-who-put-nicola-10473725


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Woe betide anyone with the timerity to criticise the snp. The whole snp party machine and associated cybernat trolls turned on her, as they have done with others in the past.

Full scale intrusive investigation, spin and downright lies about her. Just nasty people.
		
Click to expand...

Not all of them, maybe some of them..


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## User62651 (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Woe betide anyone with the timerity to criticise the snp. The whole snp party machine and associated cybernat trolls turned on her, as they have done with others in the past.

Full scale intrusive investigation, spin and downright lies about her. Just nasty people.
		
Click to expand...

For fairness was it not The Daily Record digging rather than SNP pe se. Easy story for the papers and by the look of it some anti-SNP rhetoric on TV debate from the lady in question backfired on her somewhat. The 'abuse' by her own fb post seems to have come from other nurses at odds with what she was claiming, not necessarily political or from SNP.
I know Rangers fans dont like the Daily Record but thought that was on a perceived Celtic bias basis rather than an SNP bias one. Seems like this issue was blown up and milked by Unionists too for mileage.

Each side as bad as eachother I'd think.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			For fairness was it not The Daily Record digging rather than SNP pe se. Easy story for the papers and by the look of it some anti-SNP rhetoric on TV debate from the lady in question backfired on her somewhat. The 'abuse' by her own fb post seems to have come from other nurses at odds with what she was claiming, not necessarily political or from SNP.
I know Rangers fans dont like the Daily Record but thought that was on a perceived Celtic bias basis rather than an SNP bias one. Seems like this issue was blown up and milked by Unionists too for mileage.

Each side as bad as eachother I'd think.
		
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Whats rangers got to do with it? Cybernats were abusing her on twitter before the debate was even over - wrongly saying she was married to a Tory councillor. As far as I can see the record has just written a typically low brow story reporting what was on twitter.


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## User62651 (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



*Whats rangers got to do with it?* Cybernats were abusing her on twitter before the debate was even over - wrongly saying she was married to a Tory councillor. As far as I can see the record has just written a typically low brow story reporting what was on twitter.
		
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I was trying to see if there was a link between SNP and Daily Record I wasn't aware of. The Rangers Celtic thing isn't relevant, was circumstantial in showing the paper to have a perception of bias, didn't really work I admit.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I was trying to see if there was a link between SNP and Daily Record I wasn't aware of. The Rangers Celtic thing isn't relevant, was circumstantial in showing the paper to have a perception of bias, didn't really work I admit.
		
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I think the record tries to stay neutral on Indy issues. Both praises and criticises Scottish politicians, which of course leads to claims of bias from all sides from time to time.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

Nursie was an obvious plant.......First question was about Nicola Sturgeon losing her seat.
Anyone spot a flaw in that.

Once again a desperately poor performance from BBC Scotland.
Two anti SNP presenters who allowed 50% of the UK Election debate to feature devolved matters.

Nursie's question on food banks and nurses salaries should have been put to Ruth Davidson to answer on behalf of her leader.
Nurses salaries are set by the UK government........Scotland chooses to pay it's nurses more than rUK.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nursie was an obvious plant.......First question was about Nicola Sturgeon losing her seat.
Anyone spot a flaw in that.

Once again a desperately poor performance from BBC Scotland.
Two anti SNP presenters who allowed 50% of the UK Election debate to feature devolved matters.

Nursie's question on food banks and nurses salaries should have been put to Ruth Davidson to answer on behalf of her leader.
Nurses salaries are set by the UK government........Scotland chooses to pay it's nurses more than rUK.
		
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You're sounding increasingly paranoid about the BBC. They need to have a range of views in the audience and that includes people opposed to the snp, even though cybernats can't seem to understand that.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're sounding increasingly paranoid about the BBC. They need to have a range of views in the audience and that includes people opposed to the snp, even though cybernats can't seem to understand that.
		
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Not paranoid, just amazed with what they can get away, and remain unchallenged, in a so called open and modern country.
Corbyn's treatment by the UK BBC is another example.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2017)

16 point swing towards Labour in Wales.
Momentum building.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 22, 2017)

Am I completely missing something about this rubbish "Corbyn refuses to condemn IRA" spiel that's around? He repeatedly says in the interview that he condemns anyone who bombed.. without getting into the politics of NI or that period of history, surely that's just misreporting?

If someone said to me "please confirm if you like pork and apple sausages" and I consistently replied "I love all sausages, including pork and apple, and beef", then you couldn't go around reporting that "I don't love pork and apple sausages", could you?!


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nursie was an obvious plant.......First question was about Nicola Sturgeon losing her seat.
Anyone spot a flaw in that.

Once again a desperately poor performance from BBC Scotland.
Two anti SNP presenters who allowed 50% of the UK Election debate to feature devolved matters.

Nursie's question on food banks and nurses salaries should have been put to Ruth Davidson to answer on behalf of her leader.
Nurses salaries are set by the UK government........Scotland chooses to pay it's nurses more than rUK.
		
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Each Hospital Trust can set its own salaries, contracts and T&C's. 

SNP have apologised... why do that if they've done no wrong I wonder?

And if the Scottish Parliament has control over NHS spending in Scotland, why the need for questions on their salaries?

Unlike you to to let facts get in the way... lost a grip on reality?


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not paranoid, just amazed with what they can get away, and remain unchallenged, in a so called open and modern country.
Corbyn's treatment by the UK BBC is another example.
		
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What they are getting away with is only in your imagination, the BBC bends over backwards to be impartial.


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## Raesy92 (May 22, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			What they are getting away with is only in your imagination, the BBC bends over backwards to be impartial.
		
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Supposedly the nurse was asked to come back to ask her question as she hadn't been selected the previous week. Maybe more pre-planned than it seems.


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## FairwayDodger (May 22, 2017)

Raesy92 said:



			Supposedly the nurse was asked to come back to ask her question as she hadn't been selected the previous week. Maybe more pre-planned than it seems.
		
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Seems fair enough? I don't see the problem.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2017)

If it is a q & a then you need people who will ask questions, different ones as well. Nothing odd about that. Pretty dull program otherwise.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seems fair enough? I don't see the problem.
		
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The question she was 'invited' to ask should have been directed at Ruth Davidson, not Nicloa Sturgeon or any other members of the leaders group.
As I said before, the UK Government are responsible for nurses pay, the Scottish Government top this up so she is Â£800 a year better off than working in England.
Who do you think would solve her problem?


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## FairwayDodger (May 23, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The question she was 'invited' to ask should have been directed at Ruth Davidson, not Nicloa Sturgeon or any other members of the leaders group.
As I said before, the UK Government are responsible for nurses pay, the Scottish Government top this up so she is Â£800 a year better off than working in England.
Who do you think would solve her problem?
		
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Generally at these things questions are asked and everyone on the panel gets to answer. They take it in turns to respond first?

I know the snp like to act like the opposition and blame Westminster for all their failings but in this context sturgeon is the government and Davidson just the leader of one of the minor parties.

The NHS is devolved and the Scottish government have the power to pay nurses more, even if basic rates are set by Westminster (I don't know if that's correct BTW but taking your word for it)


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## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2017)

As the parties have suspended campaigning today in the light of Manchester , it might be appropriate to give it a rest today.


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## spongebob59 (May 23, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			As the parties have suspended campaigning today in the light of Manchester , it might be appropriate to give it a rest today.
		
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Totally agree.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

Everyone who was at the concert now accounted for and all families notified; Queen held a minute silence yesterday - we need to get on with the election campaigning tomorrow I think...because if we don't I fear some will resort to accusations of manipulation of the atrocity by May.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Everyone who was at the concert now accounted for and all families notified; Queen held a minute silence yesterday - we need to get on with the election campaigning tomorrow I think...because if we don't I fear some will resort to accusations of manipulation of the atrocity by May.
		
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That's a pretty low punch.  I feel a bit sick reading it.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 24, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a pretty low punch.  I feel a bit sick reading it.
		
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I think you completely miss the point of what he said.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2017)

campaigning resumes on Friday, Think we can cope with that chaps?

hope so


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I think you completely miss the point of what he said.
		
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I think he did,  in any case I am hearing on the radio as I type that campaigning is due to restart tomorrow.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 24, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think he did,  in any case I am hearing on the radio as I type that campaigning is due to restart tomorrow.
		
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026416

There might be some local door knocking tomorrow, but the main parties say that nationally Friday is when it restarts


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

Latest Ashcroft poll has Tories on 43% Labour on 38%.
Calling an election with a 24% lead seemed like the strong and stable thing to do.

FOR SALE

Strong Stable Door
Needs fixing as it cannot close.
May swop for horse.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest Ashcroft poll has Tories on 43% Labour on 38%.
Calling an election with a 24% lead seemed like the strong and stable thing to do.

FOR SALE

Strong Stable Door
Needs fixing as it cannot close.
May swop for horse.
		
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I'm thinking that we might see a swing of voters back to UKIP - given both the terrible event of this week, and the sight of a not quite so strong and stable May when confronted by a backbencher and electorate backlash against the Dementia Tax - that not looking so good for the negotiations with the EU.  An EU that is getting used to the idea of life after the UK and is already sorting out how to adjust, and so an EU that is more likely able to stand up to May and hold out for what it sees as being essential for the EU.  And one thing that seems to be essential is that it must maintain the integrity of the EU and the position that EU27 countries are measurably better IN than OUT.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm thinking that we might see a swing of voters back to UKIP - given both the terrible event of this week, and the sight of a not quite so strong and stable May when confronted by a backbencher and electorate backlash against the Dementia Tax - that not looking so good for the negotiations with the EU.  An EU that is getting used to the idea of life after the UK and is already sorting out how to adjust, and so an EU that is more likely able to stand up to May and hold out for what it sees as being essential for the EU.  And one thing that seems to be essential is that it must maintain the integrity of the EU and the position that EU27 countries are measurably better IN than OUT.
		
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UKIP calling for an English Parliament, finally found something I can agree with them on.

Another huge lurch to the right for them, trying to win back their 'soft' supporters who went back to the Tories.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Disband all these little fiefdom.  Costing the country a fortune.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

Jeeza found more money to expand the police and armed forces. Nice to know we have loads of spare dosh lying about.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

Labotory........the new Scottish political party formed by the Labour/Tory/Unionist Alliance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Jeeza found more money to expand the police and armed forces. Nice to know we have loads of spare dosh lying about.
		
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plenty of Â£Â£Â£bns found easy enough to bail out the banks.  And aren't interest rates scarping along the bottom in any case?


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			plenty of Â£Â£Â£bns found easy enough to bail out the banks.  And aren't interest rates scarping along the bottom in any case?
		
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The old independent boys today making a big thing of the man's maths and the ability to fund what they propose now.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

It seems we have a defence minister who is more interested in pathetic UK political party points scoring than someone who can stand back, make decisions and admit that the UK/USA 'war on terror' in Iran, Syria, Afghanistan and Libya is not working.


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2017)

It doesn't seem like the Institute for Fiscal Studies believes either of the two main parties are being honest in their manifestos....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40057115


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2017)

Andrew Neil is doing a great job of demolishing Corbyn. Corbyn is dodging and weaving like a punch drunk boxer but his reluctance to give honest answers to direct questions is laying bare so many of his questionable beliefs.


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2017)

I'm not watching it so can't comment on what's happening but according to Maxfli on the Jeremy Corbyn thread.......

"Currently getting a roasting off Andrew Neill on bbc1 but staying cool under pressure and answering *all **questions put, not deflecting any, calm and assured, unflustered, not like his primary opponent! Just saying!** "

*


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## drdel (May 26, 2017)

Corbyn could easily afford his budget - all he needs is a bit of sneaky Quantitative Easing. The ECB seems to be doing it more and more without much thought or effect on the EU's budget planning or devaluation of the Euro.

He just needs to make sure the BoE doesn't get their hands on it like last time.  Perhaps they could print enough to hand us all a bundle for Christmas


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## User62651 (May 26, 2017)

Does anyone care to speculate if a 43% to 38% vote share Con/Lab is likely to get May a bigger majority than she already has or even a majority at all? All depends on marginals I expect?
Cameron got a small majority from a 36.9% vote share last time but Labour only had 30.4% so a 6.5% lead between the 2, only a 5% poll lead currently.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Does anyone care to speculate if a 43% to 38% vote share Con/Lab is likely to get May a bigger majority than she already has or even a majority at all? All depends on marginals I expect?
Cameron got a small majority from a 36.9% vote share last time but Labour only had 30.4% so a 6.5% lead between the 2, only a 5% poll lead currently.
		
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According to the BBC website it would be a smaller majority.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 26, 2017)

but I think that part of the point is that it would at least be HER majority, not something she inherited and would kill off those who say that she didnt have her own mandate.

Assuming she gets it of course

I'm not taking anything for granted re the polls


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			According to the BBC website it would be a smaller majority.
		
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that would be a fitting reward for the weak and wobbly one! :rofl:


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2017)

Anyone see Fallon get done over by Channel 4 news?

He was given a quote about how our foreign policy had led to a rise in terrorism, he immediately launches a tirade of abuse at Corbyn and how he is wrong, to then be told the quote was from Boris Johnson, didn't know what to say and says he needs to see it before believing it, so newsreader repeats quote and Fallon starts mumbling and is lost for words before muttering "he's wrong"


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## User62651 (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Anyone see Fallon get done over by Channel 4 news?

He was given a quote about how our foreign policy had led to a rise in terrorism, he immediately launches a tirade of abuse at Corbyn and how he is wrong, to then be told the quote was from Boris Johnson, didn't know what to say and says he needs to see it before believing it, so newsreader repeats quote and Fallon starts mumbling and is lost for words before muttering "he's wrong"
		
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Thought Fallon was their go to guy whenever there's a damage limitation job to do within govt too, supposed to be solid. Guess they're all feeling the pressure.


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## FairwayDodger (May 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Anyone see Fallon get done over by Channel 4 news?

He was given a quote about how our foreign policy had led to a rise in terrorism, he immediately launches a tirade of abuse at Corbyn and how he is wrong, to then be told the quote was from Boris Johnson, didn't know what to say and says he needs to see it before believing it, so newsreader repeats quote and Fallon starts mumbling and is lost for words before muttering "he's wrong"
		
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Total embarrassment that lays bare a complete lack of integrity. Tory policy at the moment is basically "not corbyn". Polls starting to suggest that isn't going to be good enough...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Thought Fallon was their go to guy whenever there's a damage limitation job to do within govt too, supposed to be solid. Guess they're all feeling the pressure.
		
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He is dreadful, and they are even talking about him replacing the even more useless Chancellor.
Tories are in full scale chaos.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Does anyone care to speculate if a 43% to 38% vote share Con/Lab is likely to get May a bigger majority than she already has or even a majority at all? All depends on marginals I expect?
Cameron got a small majority from a 36.9% vote share last time but Labour only had 30.4% so a 6.5% lead between the 2, only a 5% poll lead currently.
		
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SNP will lose about half a dozen seats to the new Scottish Labortory party.
LibDems will not get many seats for their expected 15% of votes.

All depends on the London and North of England Labour seats.
Boundary changes favour the Tories [of course]

I think it will be very close with a small majority and a total disaster for the Tories.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Andrew Neil is doing a great job of demolishing Corbyn. Corbyn is dodging and weaving like a punch drunk boxer but his reluctance to give honest answers to direct questions is laying bare so many of his questionable beliefs.
		
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We must have watched a different interview. He answered every question put to him, on about three occasions they were the same answers to the same questions. I was waiting for a 'have you now or ever been a member of the Communist Party' question. [for the old guys on here] 

May on the other hand absolutely did not answer about three questions.
Different folks/different strokes.

Whatever side you are on Neil is an obnoxious oaf who is well past his sell by. I keep thinking he interviews like a sleazy Sun journalist.

Peston is the new kid on the block.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			but I think that part of the point is that it would at least be HER majority, not something she inherited and would kill off those who say that she didnt have her own mandate.

Assuming she gets it of course

I'm not taking anything for granted re the polls
		
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Naw, she thought she would pull a fast one and get a massive majority to go into Brexit.
It has totally backfired on her.

The idiots who came up with the 'strong and stable' mantra [probably the Ossie guys] were totally out of touch.
Brits don't like folk who boast.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw, she thought she would pull a fast one and get a massive majority to go into Brexit.
It has totally backfired on her.

The idiots who came up with the 'strong and stable' mantra [probably the Ossie guys] were totally out of touch.
Brits don't like folk who boast.
		
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Whatever
Spin it the way you want,

She was criticised for her inherited mandate, you cannot deny that.

At least that particular elephant is going to leave the room .


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2017)

Is Corbyn's stance on how to deal with terror groups abroad isolationist? Could it lead to the UK being marginalised on the international stage?

If IS had been left to run free across the Middle East and North Africa what would the map of the world look like? How many citizens from those countries would have been murdered, and how many of them would have been drafted into an IS army?

And then there loss of access to the oilfields in the Middle East and North Africa.

I agree with Corbyn in that the ambition must be for peace and stability but sometimes you actually have to fight for peace. Most wars need a victor and a loser for the world to move on.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is Corbyn's stance on how to deal with terror groups abroad isolationist? Could it lead to the UK being marginalised on the international stage?

If IS had been left to run free across the Middle East and North Africa what would the map of the world look like? How many citizens from those countries would have been murdered, and how many of them would have been drafted into an IS army?

And then there loss of access to the oilfields in the Middle East and North Africa.

I agree with Corbyn in that the ambition must be for peace and stability but sometimes you actually have to fight for peace. Most wars need a victor and a loser for the world to move on.
		
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That is what impressed me with Corbyn.
He talked about 'ungoverned regions' rather that countries.
IS move into those ungoverned areas as they know that they are an easy place to operate from. UN should intervene when this happens.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what impressed me with Corbyn.
He talked about 'ungoverned regions' rather that countries.
IS move into those ungoverned areas as they know that they are an easy place to operate from. UN should intervene when this happens.
		
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Which then begs the question should the UK contribute troops etc to a UN/NATO solution? Lets be honest here, IS don't have any diplomats to negotiate with. And if they did, what country do they represent? An ungoverned region is still part of a sovereign nation.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 27, 2017)

IS can be defeated in the same way Hitler and Napoleon were.........cut off their money and supply chain.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IS can be defeated in the same way Hitler and Napoleon were.........cut off their money and supply chain.
		
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and make them invade Russia .....In winter...like thats going to happen with Is


Im seeing very little similarities regarding Hitler / Napoleon, and IS



But we are getting Off Track, back to the GE methinks


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IS can be defeated in the same way Hitler and Napoleon were.........cut off their money and supply chain.
		
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Thanks for that and here was I thinking that the battle of Waterloo and the Normandy Invasion played a big part.  Well, cut up their credit cards and job done.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			IS can be defeated in the same way Hitler and Napoleon were.........cut off their money and supply chain.
		
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I presume this idiotic post was for a bite.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

The Tory Party is now starting to eat itself [once again]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40071822


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Tory Party is now starting to eat itself [once again]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40071822

Click to expand...

A non-story by the bitter ex-chancellor.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			A non-story by the bitter ex-chancellor.
		
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Yea but don't you just long for the days when Cameron and Osbourne were considered 'Right of Centre'.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yea but don't you just long for the days when Cameron and Osbourne were considered 'Right of Centre'.

Click to expand...

So you post up a link, and say the Tory party are eating itself. And then you agree when I say its a non-story. Unlike you to be fuddled...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I presume this idiotic post was for a bite.
		
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Whatever you think of the question - the answer is Saudi Arabia


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Anyone see Fallon get done over by Channel 4 news?

He was given a quote about how our foreign policy had led to a rise in terrorism, he immediately launches a tirade of abuse at Corbyn and how he is wrong, to then be told the quote was from Boris Johnson, didn't know what to say and says he needs to see it before believing it, so newsreader repeats quote and Fallon starts mumbling and is lost for words before muttering "he's wrong"
		
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And same thing today on Peston - head-bangingly grim.  Misrepresenting Corbyn and this time trying to change what Johnson said to fit the Tory narrative over Corbyn.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We must have watched a different interview. He answered every question put to him, on about three occasions they were the same answers to the same questions. I was waiting for a 'have you now or ever been a member of the Communist Party' question. [for the old guys on here] 

May on the other hand absolutely did not answer about three questions.
Different folks/different strokes.

Whatever side you are on Neil is an obnoxious oaf who is well past his sell by. I keep thinking he interviews like a sleazy Sun journalist.

Peston is the new kid on the block.
		
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...and I thought Corbyn did OK this morning under quite severe questioning by Peston - certainly a lot better than Fallon did.  And as far as Nuttall...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Is Corbyn's stance on how to deal with terror groups abroad isolationist? Could it lead to the UK being marginalised on the international stage?

If IS had been left to run free across the Middle East and North Africa what would the map of the world look like? How many citizens from those countries would have been murdered, and how many of them would have been drafted into an IS army?

And then there loss of access to the oilfields in the Middle East and North Africa.

I agree with Corbyn in that the ambition must be for peace and stability but sometimes you actually have to fight for peace. Most wars need a victor and a loser for the world to move on.
		
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Though I get the impression that a large % of the electorate would go down a minimum interventionist route unless it was a 'mission' with a major humanitarian background - such as Ruwanda-Burundi


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Bloomin hilarious how everyone and their mother is trying to link Corbyn to the IRA.
In 1977, ten years before Corbyn met with him, Douglas Hurd was having 'secret' talks with IRA leader Gerry Adams.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever you think of the question - the answer is Saudi Arabia
		
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Steady on there, the Tories love the Uk arms buying Saudi's.
Anyone ever wonder where all the stuff they buy from the UK ends up.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Good old 'Independent' BBC news.
Reporting that Nicola Sturgeon would work with Labour in her interview with Neil when she said nothing of the sort.


----------



## Old Skier (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good old 'Independent' BBC news.
Reporting that Nicola Sturgeon would work with Labour in her interview with Neil when she said nothing of the sort.
		
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Yes she did


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I get the impression that a large % of the electorate would go down a minimum interventionist route unless it was a 'mission' with a major humanitarian background - such as Ruwanda-Burundi
		
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So we shouldn't have become involved in the former Yugoslavia to try and save thousands of Muslims.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bloomin hilarious how everyone and their mother is trying to link Corbyn to the IRA.
In 1977, ten years before Corbyn met with him, Douglas Hurd was having 'secret' talks with IRA leader Gerry Adams.
		
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What is the point in debating with you? *draws breath and tries again* 

Hurd met the IRA as part of a sanctioned government negotiation, and Corbyn did what? Went off on one of his apologist meetings, not even sanctioned by his own party.

Or put another way; what would be your reaction if Ruth Davidson went and had negotiations with a 3rd party, not even terrorist, on behalf of the SNP?


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## IanM (May 28, 2017)

And refuses to denounce them and stood in silence to honour their dead....


....and referred publically to Hamas and Hezzobolla as "our friends."  


Other than that he's a proud patriot!. Just the man when we have 20k plus Isis loons on the loose in the Uk ... he might speed up a result! Not necessarily in our favour


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good old 'Independent' BBC news.
Reporting that Nicola Sturgeon would work with Labour in her interview with Neil when she said nothing of the sort.
		
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Old Skier said:



			Yes she did
		
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What he said.

Further to that, about a week ago, and sorry but I can't find the link, she did say she would be willing to work with any party at Westminster to mitigate the worst Tory excesses. 

EDIT: she said on Wednesday 24th May she would be in London leading the negotiations with Labour to support a Labour minority govt. She spoke about it at length in an interview which included slapping down Salmond for his interference in how those negotiations should be conducted, and what conditions should be imposed on that minority Labour govt.

Its all out there if you can be bothered to look.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2017)

What really annoys me over this Corbyn and Abbott IRA link is when the Tories and their supporters use it.

What about Maria Gatland.

I'll never approve Corbyns or Abbotts action, but I'm also damn sure I'll not get past the Tories and Gatland.


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## IanM (May 28, 2017)

Possibly.  But Labour's official position on this makes Gatland's position ok... daft as that is.

And, no one knows who she is without Goggle and she's a local councillor, not a prospective PM


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2017)

IanM said:



			Possibly.  But Labour's official position on this makes Gatland's position ok... daft as that is.

And, no one knows who she is without Goggle and she's a local councillor, not a prospective PM
		
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Cheers, reinforced my point :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What he said.

Further to that, about a week ago, and sorry but I can't find the link, she did say she would be willing to work with any party at Westminster to mitigate the worst Tory excesses. 

EDIT: she said on Wednesday 24th May she would be in London leading the negotiations with Labour to support a Labour minority govt. She spoke about it at length in an interview which included slapping down Salmond for his interference in how those negotiations should be conducted, and what conditions should be imposed on that minority Labour govt.

Its all out there if you can be bothered to look.
		
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You 'miss read' my post.
I was talking about the interview with Neil and the BBC News coverage of the interview.
She said she would work with 'any progressive party'.......not sure if Labour or UKIP qualify under that heading.
There was no mention of Labour........BBC just repeated their 'error' again on 10pm news.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You 'miss read' my post.
I was talking about the interview with Neil and the BBC News coverage of the interview.
She said she would work with 'any progressive party'.......not sure if Labour or UKIP qualify under that heading.
There was no mention of Labour........BBC just repeated their 'error' again on 10pm news.
		
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And you seem to have missed the bulk of my post. The put down on Salmond was her saying, "she will be in London leading the negotiations with Labour." 

By the sound of it, all isn't well in the SNP at present. Salmond has had a few reminders recently that she leads the party, not him.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is the point in debating with you? *draws breath and tries again* 

Hurd met the IRA as part of a sanctioned government negotiation, and Corbyn did what? Went off on one of his apologist meetings, not even sanctioned by his own party.

Or put another way; what would be your reaction if Ruth Davidson went and had negotiations with a 3rd party, not even terrorist, on behalf of the SNP?
		
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Sorry you have lost me there.
Are you saying that opposition politicians negotiating for a peaceful resolution should butt out and that it can only happen if it is government sanctioned.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry you have lost me there.
Are you saying that opposition politicians negotiating for a peaceful resolution should butt out and that it can only happen if it is government sanctioned. 

Click to expand...

Yes, unless invited to do so by the govt of the day. What could Corbyn offer to the IRA, apart from giving them a platform? He couldn't say we'll reduce the number of troops or restrict the RUC's powers if you promise the give up xxx...


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## FairwayDodger (May 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Yes, unless invited to do so by the govt of the day. What could Corbyn offer to the IRA, apart from giving them a platform? He couldn't say we'll reduce the number of troops or restrict the RUC's powers if you promise the give up xxx...
		
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I'm struggling to keep up with all this but, taking all posts so far at face value, clearly Douglas Hurd wasn't a member of the government in 1977?


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm struggling to keep up with all this but, taking all posts so far at face value, clearly Douglas Hurd wasn't a member of the government in 1977?
		
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And in Gerrard FitzGerald's memoirs he said that those meetings prolonged the conflict as it gave the IRA false hope that the British govt wanted to negotiate.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2017)

Interesting evening.
Rudd coming on as a substitute for weak and wobbly in the 'leaders' debate.
Merkel isolates the EU from the influences of the UK and USA.

https://nation.cymru/2017/quarter-of-population-support-welsh-independence-yougov/

..and Wales finally wake up to smell the coffee.


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## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And in Gerrard FitzGerald's memoirs he said that those meetings prolonged the conflict as it gave the IRA false hope that the British govt wanted to negotiate.
		
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Hurd, Corbyn or both? What other meetings were going on?

And are the actions of a relatively young man in the 70s and 80s all that significant nowadays? Or are our memories too short?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2017)

Ruth Davidson pulls out of the Radio Scotland leaders 'phone in' and sends a substitute.......Fearty Tories seems to be trending. :lol:


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Yes, unless invited to do so by the govt of the day. What could Corbyn offer to the IRA, apart from giving them a platform? He couldn't say we'll reduce the number of troops or restrict the RUC's powers if you promise the give up xxx...
		
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Both the government ministers of the day and shadows in the opposition, not insignificant back benchers like Corbyn who had no standing in his own party and surprise surprise has since admitted not being involved.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Looking on the bright side, at least by ensuring we are fixated by what Corbyn may or may not have done a few decades ago, it means the tories can avoid any serious questions and debate about what their manifesto will do to our public services such as school, the NHS and the police force.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hurd, Corbyn or both? What other meetings were going on?

And are the actions of a relatively young man in the 70s and 80s all that significant nowadays? Or are our memories too short?
		
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Both.

There were official, behind the scenes, meetings going on from the late 60's. 

In many respects you're right, what does it matter who was doing what back then, apart from has that individual learned from their meddling and would they be just as likely to be cavalier now.

Surprisingly, the person to come out of all of this with at least a shred of dignity is Diane Abbott. She's admitted to meetings and comments, and said she's grown up now. Neither Corbyn nor McDonnell have admitted anything, even when political commentators have quoted known facts to them. They give a deflecting, weasly answer.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking on the bright side, at least by ensuring we are fixated by what Corbyn may or may not have done a few decades ago, it means the tories can avoid any serious questions and debate about what their manifesto will do to our public services such as school, the NHS and the police force.
		
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Unless we are going to raise substantially more in the way of taxes labour aren't going to fair any better according to independent sources and having to continually bail out Scotland because of the inability of the SNP to want to raise the taxes to do what they want to do it will only get worse.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ruth Davidson pulls out of the Radio Scotland leaders 'phone in' and sends a substitute.......Fearty Tories seems to be trending. :lol:
		
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Not trending anywhere unless I suspect amongst a small group of SNP wallys


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Unless we are going to raise substantially more in the way of taxes labour aren't going to fair any better according to independent sources and having to continually bail out Scotland because of the inability of the SNP to want to raise the taxes to do what they want to do it will only get worse.
		
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Which is fair enough. But at least it is a debate over how we still fund public services (for example do we need to raise taxes) which I imagine will impact more people than if Corbyn met the IRA decades ago.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Which is fair enough. But at least it is a debate over how we still fund public services (for example do we need to raise taxes) which I imagine will impact more people than if Corbyn met the IRA decades ago.
		
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Agreed if you also taking into account that he lied to try and justify it and if your happy for him as a story teller to be leader of the country.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Agreed if you also taking into account that he lied to try and justify it and if your happy for him as a story teller to be leader of the country.
		
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As opposed to Mrs 'No snap election' May.... 

Whilst the leaders are important and I totally agree that Corbyn is more of a liability than an asset to Labour, to be honest I'll look at what kind of country each party is trying to represent and also their policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What is the point in debating with you? *draws breath and tries again* 

Hurd met the IRA as part of a sanctioned government negotiation, and Corbyn did what? Went off on one of his apologist meetings, not even sanctioned by his own party.

Or put another way; what would be your reaction if Ruth Davidson went and had negotiations with a 3rd party, not even terrorist, on behalf of the SNP?
		
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Let's not forget that the Tory Government were meeting with the IRA long, long before they had agreed to 'lay down their arms'
_
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland William Whitelaw met IRA leader Sean MacStiofain and other Republicans at Channon's house in Chelsea on 7 July 1972.[2] The talks ended in failure,_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Channon


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			As opposed to Mrs 'No snap election' May.... 

Whilst the leaders are important and I totally agree that Corbyn is more of a liability than an asset to Labour, to be honest I'll look at what kind of country each party is trying to represent and also their policies.
		
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Besides - a Leader is only a Leader as long as he is followed.  Corbyn can quite easily become ex-Leader - even as PM (that being an unlikely event).  After all - the Tories did it when Thatcher had served her purpose and done her stint.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's not forget that the Tory Government were meeting with the IRA long, long before they had agreed to 'lay down their arms'
_
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland William Whitelaw met IRA leader Sean MacStiofain and other Republicans at Channon's house in Chelsea on 7 July 1972.[2] The talks ended in failure,_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Channon

Click to expand...

The clue is in the word Government


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			The clue is in the word Government
		
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Stop being sensible!!

Everyone knows its ok for everyone and their dog to get involved in delicate negotiations, especially inconsequential nobodies who haven't a clue what the Cabinet of the day is trying to achieve.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Stop being sensible!!

Everyone knows its ok for everyone and their dog to get involved in delicate negotiations, especially inconsequential nobodies who haven't a clue what the Cabinet of the day is trying to achieve.
		
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Sorry Bri, tend to agree with most of your posts and maybe it wasn't the case with Corbyn, but sometimes dealing with a 3rd person or intermediate with no direct involvement is more acceptable to both sides in some conflicts.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Stop being sensible!!

Everyone knows its ok for everyone and their dog to get involved in delicate negotiations, especially inconsequential nobodies who haven't a clue what the Cabinet of the day is trying to achieve.
		
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I don't care who negotiates provide the outcome results in peace.
As the government had not achieved that in decades I am inclined to agree with Paul


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't care who negotiates provide the outcome results in peace.
As the government had not achieved that in decades I am inclined to agree with Paul
		
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So now he has owned up to telling porkies and was never involved in any peace talks that's ok then.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2017)

If you are thinking of voting Tory, watch this.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/fleeing-england-for-their-lives/#comments


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			So now he has owned up to telling porkies and was never involved in any peace talks that's ok then.
		
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You know what, if his policies are well thought out and will ensure the survival of schools, the NHS, help fund social care and look after people with mental heath problems and other public services than actually, as I hope I look beyond The Daily Mail headlines/opinion pieces then yes, I can live with it.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Our labourite LBC fans not mentioning Ms Abbots interview on her reluctance along with Jeeza and his right hand man to vote against a bill naming some nasty organisations with terrorists aims.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Our labourite LBC fans not mentioning Ms Abbots interview on her reluctance along with Jeeza and his right hand man to vote against a bill naming some nasty organisations with terrorists aims.
		
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Newsflash, Dianne Abbot is a bit of a clown and an electoral liability.  Newsflash, so is Boris Johnson. 15 all, cancel each other out, how about looking at the manifestos etc etc.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Bri, tend to agree with most of your posts and maybe it wasn't the case with Corbyn, but sometimes dealing with a 3rd person or intermediate with no direct involvement is more acceptable to both sides in some conflicts.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't care who negotiates provide the outcome results in peace.
As the government had not achieved that in decades I am inclined to agree with Paul
		
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I'll go for it if both parties are in agreement. Otherwise, no...


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You 'miss read' my post.
I was talking about the interview with Neil and the BBC News coverage of the interview.
She said she would work with 'any progressive party'.......not sure if Labour or UKIP qualify under that heading.
There was no mention of Labour........BBC just repeated their 'error' again on 10pm news.
		
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Was that the interview I watched where Andrew Neil tore her to pieces on Tuition fees, Education, and just about all her policies.  Also, what is 'Progressive' about bankrupting your country and being a 'one trick pony' party who's main attribute is fooling people.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Our labourite LBC fans not mentioning Ms Abbots interview on her reluctance along with Jeeza and his right hand man to vote against a bill naming some nasty organisations with terrorists aims.
		
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If we are looking at voting on seemingly indefensible things then 2 words, Dubs Amendment. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ainst-tories-labour-immigration-a7573881.html 

Again, works both ways. How about looking at the manifestos....


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again, works both ways. How about looking at the manifestos....
		
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You mean the Labour manifesto that an independent organisation has already reported that unless there is a massive hike in taxes in not sustainable or a Tory one which is bland with no real substance.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			You mean the Labour manifesto that an independent organisation has already reported that unless there is a massive hike in taxes in not sustainable or a Tory one which is bland with no real substance.
		
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Well essentially yes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I'll go for it if both parties are in agreement. Otherwise, no...
		
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I'm no fan of Corbyn Bri, just sometimes the hypocrisy from all parties sadden me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Our labourite LBC fans not mentioning Ms Abbots interview on her reluctance along with Jeeza and his right hand man to vote against a bill naming some nasty organisations with terrorists aims.
		
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Is that the vote were their was over 40 groups lumped in together as Terrorist groups and of which 5-10 have now been deemed as non-violent and no longer on the list, totally agree there were also some awful groups on it, but to speed the vote up, they listed them together rather than giving MP's a vote on individual groups, Abbott and the like voted against the list not all the groups on it, unfortunately the truth gets in the way of right wing spin.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well essentially yes.
		
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Well if we go by that then it looks like we should ignore their manifestos then


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that the vote were their was over 40 groups lumped in together as Terrorist groups and of which 5-10 have now been deemed as non-violent and no longer on the list, totally agree there were also some awful groups on it, but to speed the vote up, they listed them together rather than giving MP's a vote on individual groups, Abbott and the like voted against the list not all the groups on it, unfortunately the truth gets in the way of right wing spin.
		
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All depends on her hair day.


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## Tashyboy (May 29, 2017)

Just read who our candidates are in Mansfield.
Alan Meale, been MP for years and was proposed by the NUM. National Union of Mineworkers. Been a labour seat for 90 odd years and Mansfield is still a dump.
Ben Bradley, a 27 yr old Tory. Eh 27, give me strength.
UKIP candidate 67 yr old. He's there for the long term then.
independant and Liberal candidates. Never even heard of them.

well aren't we just spoilt for choice. Just read that Kenneth Clark stood as an MP twice in Mansfield but had his butt kicked.


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## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2017)

Good performance by JC in the leaders "debate". Very poor from paxman, line of questioning about the manifesto not featuring Corbyns beliefs rather daft.


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## FairwayDodger (May 29, 2017)

Paxman also fails to lay a glove on May. Bad night for him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Paxman also fails to lay a glove on May. Bad night for him.
		
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Actually I thought May really struggled when put under pressure by JP.  She was sold by the Tories and sells herself as not only being Strong and Stable but being straight and honest.  In fact this evening she was anything but straight and honest.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Was that the interview I watched where Andrew Neil tore her to pieces on Tuition fees, Education, and just about all her policies.  Also, what is 'Progressive' about bankrupting your country and being a 'one trick pony' party who's main attribute is fooling people.
		
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Yes, like you Neil seemed to be ignorant of the fact that Education in Scotland is devolved, as is the NHS.
Nothing to do with a Westminster election, everything to do with a Holyrood election. 
Did not stop the numptie asking 26 of his 34 questions and about 70% of the 30 mins on devolved issues.

It was also the interview when he insisted no English nurses had been made redundant when in fact over 3000 had lost their jobs.

'Tore her to pieces', goodness me what were you watching. :lol:


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, like you Neil seemed to be ignorant of the fact that Education in Scotland is devolved, as is the NHS.
Nothing to do with a Westminster election, everything to do with a Holyrood election. 
Did not stop the numptie asking 26 of his 34 questions and about 70% of the 30 mins on devolved issues.

It was also the interview when he insisted no English nurses had been made redundant when in fact over 3000 had lost their jobs.

'Tore her to pieces', goodness me what were you watching. :lol:
		
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He made her look the Numpty She is.  Whats your point about devolved matters, this makes her even worse as she has failed on all these issues while they are under her control.  What I am about to say to you will probably come as a surprise but Sturgeon isnt an MP at Westminster so when she was interviewed it was to challenge her on her lack of performance in Governing Scotland.


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## ger147 (May 30, 2017)

The latest opinion polls from Sat are as follows:

CON 45%(-1), LAB 35%(+2), LDEM 7%(-1), UKIP 5%(nc)
CON 46%(-2), LAB 34%(+4), LDEM 8%(-2), UKIP 5%(nc)
CON 44%(-2), LAB 38%(+4), LDEM 7%(nc), UKIP 5%(-2)
CON 43%(nc), LAB 36%(-2), LDEM 9%(-1), UKIP 4%(nc)
CON 46%(-1), LAB 32%(-1), LDEM 8%(-1), UKIP 5%(+1)

The Tories still healthy in the mid 40's but the Labour are up on average 5 points from where they started on around 30% and the trend of the gap narrowing continues.

If the average of those polls were the actual result then it should still be a comfortable majority for the Tories but it will be interesting to see the mid week polls this week after the PM and the Labour leader's appearances on TV last night.

The lead looks unassailable to me at this stage with just over a week to go but you never know, and of course the polls have been wrong before, more wrong than right recently...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			He made her look the Numpty She is.  Whats your point about devolved matters, this makes her even worse as she has failed on all these issues while they are under her control.  What I am about to say to you will probably come as a surprise but Sturgeon isnt an MP at Westminster so when she was interviewed it was to challenge her on her lack of performance in Governing Scotland.
		
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For goodness sake what a desperate attempt at deflection
Are you not aware that she is the leader of the SNP.

BTW the SNP out in force yesterday, about 40 supporters in a bus doorstepping/leaflet dropping in our rural villages.
Six page A4 leaflet........not one mention of Independence, mainly about her record at Westminster and SNP policies.

Tory leaflet four pages A4....23 mentions of Independence:lol:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

ger147 said:



			The latest opinion polls from Sat are as follows:

CON 45%(-1), LAB 35%(+2), LDEM 7%(-1), UKIP 5%(nc)
CON 46%(-2), LAB 34%(+4), LDEM 8%(-2), UKIP 5%(nc)
CON 44%(-2), LAB 38%(+4), LDEM 7%(nc), UKIP 5%(-2)
CON 43%(nc), LAB 36%(-2), LDEM 9%(-1), UKIP 4%(nc)
CON 46%(-1), LAB 32%(-1), LDEM 8%(-1), UKIP 5%(+1)

The Tories still healthy in the mid 40's but the Labour are up on average 5 points from where they started on around 30% and the trend of the gap narrowing continues.

If the average of those polls were the actual result then it should still be a comfortable majority for the Tories but it will be interesting to see the mid week polls this week after the PM and the Labour leader's appearances on TV last night.

The lead looks unassailable to me at this stage with just over a week to go but you never know, and of course the polls have been wrong before, more wrong than right recently...
		
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I agree - Tories are going to romp it - despite The Supreme Leader's evident flaws and weaknesses.  Though I did note that May now tends to refer to the Tories being able to form a Strong & Stable government led by her - rather referring to herself as being S&S leading a Tory government.

Anyway self and Mrs SILH have our tickets for the SW Surrey constituency hustings on Friday evening,  sold out 400+  Wonder how Jeremy will fare.   Should be interesting.


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## chrisd (May 30, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wonder how Jeremy will fare.   Should be interesting.
		
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I can tell you now. He'll spout all the tosh that clearly makes him unelectable, he'll talk about bringing in Â£48 billion in extra taxes to pay for his giveaway but wont tell you that when taxes go up too much, those who are affected, find more ways NOT to pay. he wont explain how companies lumbered with extortionate corporation tax rises will not have the profits to expand their businesses and create more employment as they don't all take bigger dividends when profits are good! He won't say that when he charges extra tax on private medical cover to pay for hospital parking, that those who cannot afford the increased fees will add to the NHS burden so cost more AND clog up the car parks even more!


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## ger147 (May 30, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I can tell you now. He'll spout all the tosh that clearly makes him unelectable, he'll talk about bringing in Â£48 billion in extra taxes to pay for his giveaway but wont tell you that when taxes go up too much, those who are affected, find more ways NOT to pay. he wont explain how companies lumbered with extortionate corporation tax rises will not have the profits to expand their businesses and create more employment as they don't all take bigger dividends when profits are good! He won't say that when he charges extra tax on private medical cover to pay for hospital parking, that those who cannot afford the increased fees will add to the NHS burden so cost more AND clog up the car parks even more!
		
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He meant Jeremy Hunt, his local MP...


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

ger147 said:



			He meant Jeremy Hunt, his local MP...
		
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Also unelectable, in fairness


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## ger147 (May 30, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Also unelectable, in fairness 

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He seems electable enough to his constituents...


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## User62651 (May 30, 2017)

ger147 said:



			He seems electable enough to his constituents...
		
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If a tailors dummy stood in that constituency for the Tories, it'd still win, it's that safe a seat.


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## ger147 (May 30, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			If a tailors dummy stood in that constituency for the Tories, it'd still win, it's that safe a seat.
		
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So just to confirm, he's electable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I can tell you now. He'll spout all the tosh that clearly makes him unelectable, he'll talk about bringing in Â£48 billion in extra taxes to pay for his giveaway but wont tell you that when taxes go up too much, those who are affected, find more ways NOT to pay. he wont explain how companies lumbered with extortionate corporation tax rises will not have the profits to expand their businesses and create more employment as they don't all take bigger dividends when profits are good! He won't say that when he charges extra tax on private medical cover to pay for hospital parking, that those who cannot afford the increased fees will add to the NHS burden so cost more AND clog up the car parks even more!
		
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Jeremy Hunt...as noted.  And on the same stage will be Dr Louise Irvine of the National Health Action Party - I believe she is standing as Progressive Alliance candidate supported by LibDems; the Greens, and others.  Labour are standing - as they must - though some of the local Labour Party wanted to line up behind Dr Louise Irvine - they were 'struck off'


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## jp5 (May 30, 2017)

ger147 said:



			So just to confirm, he's electable.
		
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Just like Corbyn!


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## ger147 (May 30, 2017)

jp5 said:



			Just like Corbyn!
		
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I didn't make any comment about Corbyn.


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## FairwayDodger (May 30, 2017)

ger147 said:



			He seems electable enough to his constituents...
		
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Everyone is electable to someone! We can only hope his constituents have been paying attention to his shortcomings.


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## Val (May 30, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			If a tailors dummy stood in that constituency for the Tories, it'd still win, it's that safe a seat.
		
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The said that about my constituency, a seat which has been held by John Smith, Helen Liddell and Dr John Reid with some of the largest majorities in the country................it's now a SNP seat unfortunately.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2017)

Just catching up on the Paxman interviews .......goodness me.
Paxman adopting the style of the boring pub drunk looking for a fight.:lol: Not pretty.


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## Dan2501 (May 30, 2017)

schoolcuts.org.uk

This makes for interesting reading. Awful to see that my old High School could lose Â£261,000 in the next 5 years.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just catching up on the Paxman interviews .......goodness me.
Paxman adopting the style of the boring pub drunk looking for a fight.:lol: Not pretty.
		
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At least I think both sides can agree with this. I saw an apt description on twitter that he is like an analogue interviewer in a digital age.


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## User62651 (May 30, 2017)

Dan2501 said:



			schoolcuts.*org*.uk

This makes for interesting reading. Awful to see that my old High School could lose Â£261,000 in the next 5 years.
		
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Address change


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## Dan2501 (May 30, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Address change
		
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Yep well spotted, have edited :thup:


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## User62651 (May 30, 2017)

Should've used this for our Eurovison entry. Riding high in the charts yet not allowed on radio, shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxN1STgQXW8


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Should've used this for our Eurovison entry. Riding high in the charts yet not allowed on radio, shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxN1STgQXW8

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I like that.......bump at every opportunity.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2017)

Dan2501 said:



			schoolcuts.org.uk

This makes for interesting reading. Awful to see that my old High School could lose Â£261,000 in the next 5 years.
		
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There is a bit of over exaggeration in this as it led by the teaching unions. But not much. 

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Tory manifesto on education is disingenuous  at best, will mean big cuts will have to be made in most schools and plays very fast and loose with stats when it comes to grammar schools.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, like you Neil seemed to be ignorant of the fact that Education in Scotland is devolved, as is the NHS.
Nothing to do with a Westminster election, everything to do with a Holyrood election. 
Did not stop the numptie asking 26 of his 34 questions and about 70% of the 30 mins on devolved issues.

It was also the interview when he insisted no English nurses had been made redundant when in fact over 3000 had lost their jobs.

'Tore her to pieces', goodness me what were you watching. :lol:
		
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He's had to discuss devolved issues, he was interviewing someone who has no standing in Westminster and looks over a minor devolved parliament.  He was unable to ask about main UK issues as she's not involved at that high a level.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Analysis carried out by the Professor of Economics, Kings College London (discussed with him this morning on LBC) - indicates that when nett immigration is under 100,000 per annum the cost to the exchequer will be Â£6bn/year in respect of the tax take (never mind the impact on GDP and economic growth) - so Â£120m/week.  

Now that's a fair chunk of the Â£350m/week (Â£250m/week after the rebate and Â£175m/week after Â£4bn spending equivalent to current EU funding of UK projects etc is taken off) - pity so many believed the Â£350m/week figure before the vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-million-a-week-to-the-eu-claim-a7085016.html

Of course no doubt there will be another economist that will show that nett immigration of less than 100,000 will be beneficial to the economy.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course no doubt there will be another economist that will show that nett immigration of less than 100,000 will be beneficial to the economy.
		
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If and I suspect its a big IF it gets more local people back into work and of the unemployment register it would benefit the economy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			If and I suspect its a big IF it gets more local people back into work and of the unemployment register it would benefit the economy.
		
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It would - but the benefit would be tempered by the fact that all the unemployed are *already *part of the economy in their spending.  With reduced immigration we are talking about taking a lot of people *out* of the economy - so we lose the stimulus and contribution to GDP, as well as the employment for others, that their businesses bring, and the impact on other businesses of their spending.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It would - but the benefit would be tempered by the fact that all the unemployed are *already *part of the economy in their spending.  With reduced immigration we are talking about taking a lot of people *out* of the economy - so we lose the stimulus and contribution to GDP, as well as the employment for others, that their businesses bring, and the impact on other businesses of their spending.
		
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Your argument makes no mention of the cost benifits within the health and education sector and other public sector organisations however it's irrelevant as in the negotiations  (look it up) there is more than likely an agreement which the British Government has already hinted at but ignored by some that EU citizens will get the right to remain in the UK. Not sure if an independent Scotland would make the same consesion when they leave the EU


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

Old Skier said:



*Your argument makes no mention of the cost benifits within the health and education sector and other public sector organisations *however it's irrelevant as in the negotiations  (look it up) there is more than likely an agreement which the British Government has already hinted at but ignored by some that EU citizens will get the right to remain in the UK. Not sure if an independent Scotland would make the same consesion when they leave the EU
		
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You mean the hit they will have to take through loss of people?   Did you not notice that numbers coming here from the EU are already dropping and those leaving is increasing.  And so who will replace them?

It is nonsense and madness to set an arbitrary figure of 100,000 as a target for nett immigration.  It is nonsense because it does not take into any account the level of nett immigration that is required (analysis I have seen suggests a minimum of 200,000) and so is not a level that fits with our needs and so will be self-harming; and it is madness because it is repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  

But it is a nonsense and madness that many buy into as it meets their _'too many immigrants' _narrative - a narrative that is maintained despite all the evidence and arguments that show that we *need* immigration.

And for the Right Wing Press to rant today about a _secret Labour Plan_ to increase immigration is just shocking.  It is neither secret nor a plan.  It is I understand it simply a discussion paper looking at the immigration needs of the economy and how that could require increased immigration.  But of course Paul Dacre doesn't want his readers to understand that.  He wants to frighten them.  Desperate.


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean the hit they will have to take through loss of people?   Did you not notice that numbers coming here from the EU are already dropping and those leaving is increasing.  And so who will replace them?

It is nonsense and madness to set an arbitrary figure of 100,000 as a target for nett immigration.  It is nonsense because it does not take into any account the level of nett immigration that is required (analysis I have seen suggests a minimum of 200,000) and so is not a level that fits with our needs and so will be self-harming; and it is madness because it is repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  

But it is a nonsense and madness that many buy into as it meets their _'too many immigrants' _narrative - a narrative that is maintained despite all the evidence and arguments that show that we *need* immigration.

And for the Right Wing Press to rant today about a _secret Labour Plan_ to increase immigration is just shocking.  It is neither secret nor a plan.  It is I understand it simply a discussion paper looking at the immigration needs of the economy and how that could require increased immigration.  But of course Paul Dacre doesn't want his readers to understand that.  He wants to frighten them.  Desperate.
		
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I have given you an alternative view on this before, one that suggests immigration is at the best cost neutral but probably creating a large loss to the exchequer over time.  Rather than ignore it or suggest it's just right wing propaganda read it and discuss :

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-article/136

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/history-of-immigration

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2017)

And so...the audience were enthusiastically supportive of five out of seven parties in the debate.  

If there are equal numbers of supporters of each party then of course there will be more left supporting than right.  So why on earth would there be a balance between left and right.

And the Tories and UKIP are complaining about BBC bias and that the audience was a disgrace.  But the BBC didn't select the audience!!!

Oh yes - and Farage complaining that there wasn't a specific question on Brexit - whilst there was one on climate change. BBC bias!!! There was a question on immigration for Nuttall to get his teeth into; and it's only fair to have one for Caroline Lucas.

Oh well.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2017)

Amber Rudd: Trust us on our record.
Audience: Bursts out into spontaneous laughter.

Quite a change for us all to actually see and hear a neutral BBC politics audience eh.
I though Wee Angus did well [but I would wouldn't I]


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## spongebob59 (Jun 1, 2017)

Wonder if Osbourne wrote this ?

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...n-remotely-capable-of-governing-a3554456.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Amber Rudd: Trust us on our record.
Audience: Bursts out into spontaneous laughter.

Quite a change for us all to actually see and hear a neutral BBC politics audience eh.
I though Wee Angus did well [but I would wouldn't I]

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You *know *that the audience was selected by an independent polling organisation.  They would not deliberately bias it in favour of Labour as they would know the ruckus that would result.  It looked a very small audience.  Having equal numbers of supporters of each party would inevitably great an overwhelming left-bias in the audience.  

But that is how British party politics are with many more left-leaning parties than right.  You then have the 'secret and older Tory' effect, balanced against a younger left-leaning part of the audience more ready and willing to make a noise.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You *know *that the audience was selected by an independent polling organisation.  They would not deliberately bias it in favour of Labour as they would know the ruckus that would result.  It looked a very small audience.  Having equal numbers of supporters of each party would inevitably great an overwhelming left-bias in the audience.  

But that is how British party politics are with many more left-leaning parties than right.  You then have the 'secret and older Tory' effect, balanced against a younger left-leaning part of the audience more ready and willing to make a noise.
		
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If the balance of the audience was equal between all the representative speakers then it would be very biased against the Tories.  By the audience reaction it seemed that was exactly what it was.


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## jp5 (Jun 1, 2017)

Probably just surprising as it was a genuinely balanced audience as opposed to the Question Time idea of a 'balanced' audience!

No doubt it seemed one-sided as there seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm for Mr Corbyn, and not much for Ms Rudd. Possibly what happens if the PM thinks it is below her to turn up!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

Tory HQ '_Hi, look the vote is looking a bit closer than we expected.  I mean how were we to know that the other parties actually have some sensible popular policies that will benefit a lot of people in society, not just a few. However, as we all know our glorious leader is too busy to debate our policies with anyone and try and defend our pretty unpleasant manifesto, so could you do us a favour and just print some garbage headlines about Corbyn, you know, he will eat all your children or something like that, usual stuff, no mention whatsoever of what we will do, just some pointless puerile scaremongering. Anything to prevent middle England from actually thinking about the good of all society and what we will do to the country if we get in again.    

_Tory In House magazines_ 'I don't know, even we are a bit bored of this now, how about you say what you will do for Britain, you know, tell people what your plans are for schools, the NHS, public services, that kind of thing' 

_Tory HQ '_Don't be stupid, your job is deflect as much as you can away from the fact our policies are actually quite nasty.  Just keep middle England scared of Corbyn, do as we say or your editors will not get the honours we promised them._

Tory In House Magazines '_ Will do boss....'

_


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## spongebob59 (Jun 2, 2017)

After watching the Andrew Neil interview last night.....

Taxi for Farron !


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## IanM (Jun 2, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Tory HQ '_Hi, look the vote is looking a bit closer than we expected.  I mean how were we to know that the other parties actually have some sensible popular policies that will benefit a lot of people in society, not just a few. However, as we all know our glorious leader is too busy to debate our policies with anyone and try and defend our pretty unpleasant manifesto, so could you do us a favour and just print some garbage headlines about Corbyn, you know, he will eat all your children or something like that, usual stuff, no mention whatsoever of what we will do, just some pointless puerile scaremongering. Anything to prevent middle England from actually thinking about the good of all society and what we will do to the country if we get in again.    

_Tory In House magazines_ 'I don't know, even we are a bit bored of this now, how about you say what you will do for Britain, you know, tell people what your plans are for schools, the NHS, public services, that kind of thing' 

_Tory HQ '_Don't be stupid, your job is deflect as much as you can away from the fact our policies are actually quite nasty.  Just keep middle England scared of Corbyn, do as we say or your editors will not get the honours we promised them._

Tory In House Magazines '_ Will do boss....'

_
View attachment 22812
View attachment 22813

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Correct...and this differs from those which support EU/Labour in what way exactly?    

I think they could try harder... Corbyn to give Gib to Spain and the Falklands to Argentina perhaps?    I guess the Protestants in Ulster are panicking too! His chums will expect action.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

IanM said:




*Correct...and this differs from those which support EU/Labour in what way exactly*?    

I think they could try harder... Corbyn to give Gib to Spain and the Falklands to Argentina perhaps?    I guess the Protestants in Ulster are panicking too! His chums will expect action.
		
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Well today The Guardian is leading on the Trump Climate non deal and The Mirror on the Ariana Grande concert. 

I know the political bias of each paper and you expect 'selective' headlines depending on which one you read.  But for all the right wing papers to essentially go with the same narrative of 'Labour is bad/Corbyn is evil' on the same day at a time where polls are suggesting it will not be the landslide the tories first may have expected seems a bit of a coincidence. At the very least then could have come up with exaggerated story of how a Tory policy will make their readers lives a bit better after June 8th. 

It's as if the Tories are a bit ashamed of their policies and don't want them discussed in the public arena .....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well today The Guardian is leading on the Trump Climate non deal and The Mirror on the Ariana Grande concert. 

I know the political bias of each paper and you expect 'selective' headlines depending on which one you read.  But for all the right wing papers to essentially go with the same narrative of 'Labour is bad/Corbyn is evil' on the same day at a time where polls are suggesting it will not be the landslide the tories first may have expected seems a bit of a coincidence. At the very least then could have come up with exaggerated story of how a Tory policy will make their readers lives a bit better after June 8th. 

It's as if the Tories are a bit ashamed of their policies and don't want them discussed in the public arena ..... 

Click to expand...

Ruth Davidson was looking extremely uncomfortable attempting to defend the two child/rape clause on Scottish TV last night.

No mention of the words 'Conservative' and/or 'May' in many of 'The Ruth Davidson Party' leaflets.
Sadly the name 'Ruth Davidson' is becoming just as toxic as her popularity ratings plunge.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ruth Davidson was looking extremely uncomfortable attempting to defend the two child/rape clause on Scottish TV last night.

No mention of the words 'Conservative' and/or 'May' in many of 'The Ruth Davidson Party' leaflets.
Sadly the name 'Ruth Davidson' is becoming just as toxic as her popularity ratings plunge.
		
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Fishing again.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well today The Guardian is leading on the Trump Climate non deal and The Mirror on the Ariana Grande concert. 

I know the political bias of each paper and you expect 'selective' headlines depending on which one you read.  But for all the right wing papers to essentially go with the same narrative of 'Labour is bad/Corbyn is evil' on the same day at a time where polls are suggesting it will not be the landslide the tories first may have expected seems a bit of a coincidence. At the very least then could have come up with exaggerated story of how a Tory policy will make their readers lives a bit better after June 8th. 

It's as if the Tories are a bit ashamed of their policies and don't want them discussed in the public arena ..... 

Click to expand...

What's the latest opinion from Gardener's weekly and Motorcycle Monthly?  You really appear to have an unhealthy fixation with News Papers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Fishing again.
		
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Keep up....................down to -26 in latest leaders popularity poll


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sadly the name 'Ruth Davidson' is becoming just as toxic as her popularity ratings plunge.
		
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At this rate considering the ratings of the SNP Leader you'll soon end up with nobody in charge up there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

SNP on target for 50 seats.....the combined other minor unionist coalition parties [Labortorys].... 9 seats.

Personally I think the SNP will do well to get 48 seats


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP on target for 50 seats.....the combined other minor unionist coalition parties [Labortorys].... 9 seats.

Personally I think the SNP will do well to get 48 seats

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Maths not a strong point up there, just have to wait and see.


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## User62651 (Jun 2, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Maths not a strong point up there, just have to wait and see.
		
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More racism, nice.

A recent blip in school standards (from a historically high level) may be a criticism you can level at SNP's governance but your unpleasant post does not do that, it is a generalisaton that covers all ages and people voting all ways. 

No need.


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## drdel (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			More racism, nice.

A recent blip in school standards (from a historically high level) may be a criticism you can level at SNP's governance but your unpleasant post does not do that, it is a generalisaton that covers all ages and people voting all ways. 

No need.
		
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I can recall there were loads of funny jokes about English, Irish and Scottish floating around.  Its a pity that any silly jibe runs the risk of being termed racist.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			More racism, nice.

A recent blip in school standards (from a historically high level) may be a criticism you can level at SNP's governance but your unpleasant post does not do that, it is a generalisaton that covers all ages and people voting all ways. 

No need.
		
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Silly boy, go and lay down for an hour. I'm sure the poster is big enough to look after himself.

Racist, you don't know me yet you accuse someone of being a racist. Not one of your better posts.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			More racism, nice.

A recent blip in school standards (from a historically high level) may be a criticism you can level at SNP's governance but your unpleasant post does not do that, it is a generalisaton that covers all ages and people voting all ways. 
No need.
		
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Racism! That's ridiculous!!


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## User62651 (Jun 2, 2017)

Well it's a generalisation of stupidity aimed at one country and not for the first time by Old Skier, he is mixing potshots at Doon frae Troon with generalisations of everyone up here, if it's aimed at SNP or one person on here then that's fair game but it goes beyond that and doesn't read well imo. I dont see the need for that type of posting, to me it reads badly. Say you'd aimed that post at the Irish in general, would that have been ok too? 
That kind of post makes Old Skier look like the real nationalist on here.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Well it's a generalisation of stupidity aimed at one country and not for the first time by Old Skier, he is mixing potshots at Doon frae Troon with generalisations of everyone up here, if it's aimed at SNP or one person on here then that's fair game but it goes beyond that and doesn't read well imo. I dont see the need for that type of posting, to me it reads badly. Say you'd aimed that post at the Irish in general, would that have been ok too? 
That kind of post makes Old Skier look like the real nationalist on here.
		
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Perhaps an hour lay down isn't long enough. I have been accused of many things but never a racist. Hey ho it's the internet and you can hide behind that and post whatever nasty little comments you like. I've been around lesser people.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			More racism, nice.

A recent blip in school standards (from a historically high level) may be a criticism you can level at SNP's governance but your unpleasant post does not do that, it is a generalisaton that covers all ages and people voting all ways. 

No need.
		
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Don't worry, he always posts nasty arrogant anti Scottish stuff to me.
I stopped replying to him a few months ago, as it is a total waste of my time, but he still persists.
I find his return posts quite sad/funny/desperate. [delete where appropriate]

Bet he replies to this one.:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't worry, he always posts nasty arrogant anti Scottish stuff to me.
I stopped replying to him a few months ago, as it is a total waste of my time, but he still persists.
I find his return posts quite sad/funny/desperate. [delete where appropriate]

Bet he replies to this one.:lol:
		
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Why do you always seem to be stirring up trouble.  Does it make you feel good or what?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you always seem to be stirring up trouble.  Does it make you feel good or what?
		
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:lol: Bingo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2017)

You are all as bad and as pathetic as each other - every single political thread descends into the same level of petty name calling and nasty arrogance and it's always the same people. It's the reason why the political threads are dominated by the same handful of people.


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## User62651 (Jun 2, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't worry, he always posts nasty arrogant anti Scottish stuff to me.
I stopped replying to him a few months ago, as it is a total waste of my time, but he still persists.
I find his return posts quite sad/funny/desperate. [delete where appropriate]

Bet he replies to this one.:lol:
		
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I realise different folks wont get on and the banter turns a bit personal but it shouldn't have to. 
It's still a golf forum and if everyone wrote on here as if they were speaking opposite eachother across a pub table I think that would be good. Communication gets misinterpreted easily enough when by writing alone.

I like the political craic on here but it shouldn't need to get personal. I took that recent post personally insulting and way off topic be that right or wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I realise different folks wont get on and the banter turns a bit personal but it shouldn't have to. 
It's still a golf forum and if everyone wrote on here as if they were speaking opposite eachother across a pub table I think that would be good. Communication gets misinterpreted easily enough when by writing alone.

I like the political craic on here but it shouldn't need to get personal. I took that recent post personally insulting and way off topic be that right or wrong.
		
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You are not wrong.
I posted some information about the projected Scottish vote in the GE.
Because it made uncomfortable reading to a poster it was quickly turned into an insult on a nation.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are all as bad and as pathetic as each other - every single political thread descends into the same level of petty name calling and nasty arrogance and it's always the same people. It's the reason why the political threads are dominated by the same handful of people.
		
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Sanctimonious or what!   Give us a break Ned Flanders.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are all as bad and as pathetic as each other - every single political thread descends into the same level of petty name calling and nasty arrogance and it's always the same people. It's the reason why the political threads are dominated by the same handful of people.
		
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That's the reason for staying away from the footie thread.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

It appears that the RUK has to accept the petty remarks thrown by a Scot (some) but dare to respond with a petty remark in return then your accused of all sorts of nasty things, pot and kettle comes to mind. Strange old world.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I realise different folks wont get on and the banter turns a bit personal but it shouldn't have to. 
It's still a golf forum and if everyone wrote on here as if they were speaking opposite eachother across a pub table I think that would be good. Communication gets misinterpreted easily enough when by writing alone.

I like the political craic on here but it shouldn't need to get personal. I took that recent post personally insulting and way off topic be that right or wrong.
		
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Accepted.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 2, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are all as bad and as pathetic as each other - every single political thread descends into the same level of petty name calling and nasty arrogance and it's always the same people. It's the reason why the political threads are dominated by the same handful of people.
		
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I have to say I am in total agreement with LP on this.

It doesnt make pleasant reading and could be off putting to a new member from either joining in or even posting. Im not having that.
The petty arguments need to stop and stop now.

Everyone has a different opinion and take on things, we need to respect those, by all means argue the point, but if things start to get petty, that should ring an alarm bell in certain posters heads and you should take a break.

"Agree to disagree and move on"  is the mantra

Lets see how you do with it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I have to say I am in total agreement with LP on this.

It doesnt make pleasant reading and could be off putting to a new member from either joining in or even posting. Im not having that.
The petty arguments need to stop and stop now.

Everyone has a different opinion and take on things, we need to respect those, by all means argue the point, but if things start to get petty, that should ring an alarm bell in certain posters heads and you should take a break.

"Agree to disagree and move on"  is the mantra

Lets see how you do with it
		
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Let's hope your mantra is noted by people discussing Arsenal on the footie thread :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I have to say I am in total agreement with LP on this.

It doesnt make pleasant reading and could be off putting to a new member from either joining in or even posting. Im not having that.
The petty arguments need to stop and stop now.

Everyone has a different opinion and take on things, we need to respect those, by all means argue the point, but if things start to get petty, that should ring an alarm bell in certain posters heads and you should take a break.

"Agree to disagree and move on"  is the mantra

Lets see how you do with it
		
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But I am innocent and never start it, I only respond if provoked...  

ahh crap, I'm starting another petty argument aren't I.....


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## User62651 (Jun 3, 2017)

Some credit due BBC for yesterday's Leader tv show, they get a lot of stick for perceived bias from both sides but Dimbleby controlled the show very well and questioning was on point. Audience was fairly balanced too. Dimbleby pressed the pair of them at the right time on points they weren't answering with clarity which was good.
In terms of who did better, hard to say, both did quite well in my view, Corbyn's obvious media training is working well and he stayed on the front foot pretty well, May was better than usual with a few stuttery moments under pressure but perhaps had a harder time as the incumbent on social care, NHS and u-turns in particular and an actual record to defend. Corbyn's defence questioning was more hypothetical so harder to pin him down on.
Actually making them (particularly May) answer questions made a refreshing change. 
For any floating voters out there I think the show would have been a little helpful at least. Does make the election presidential which maybe makes people focus on people/personalities as much as or more than policy which isn't so good imo.


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2017)

Better format.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Corbyn was very obtuse when pushed on his stance on using nuclear weapons in a retaliatory role, he just would not answer the question.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn was very obtuse when pushed on his stance on using nuclear weapons in a retaliatory role, he just would not answer the question.
		
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Perhaps it is because he knows that when he started lobbing nukes about there would be no world left to save.

Corbyn's views seemed to be popular with the audience and unpopular with the small group of angry old Corbyn hating men.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps it is because he knows that when he started lobbing nukes about there would be no world left to save.

Corbyn's views seemed to be popular with the audience and unpopular with the small group of angry old Corbyn hating men.
		
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Blinkered as usual or maybe the normal fishing trip.


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## pendodave (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn was very obtuse when pushed on his stance on using nuclear weapons in a retaliatory role, he just would not answer the question.
		
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I don't get the obsession with this. There have been so many important and far reaching issues in the last few years, and so many more to come that our politicians have to deal with. Other countries, far larger and more successful than us (Germany/Japan) have managed perfectly well without them. 

When the Tories go nuke, you know it's because they want you to stop looking somewhere else...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2017)

So what's the point in Labour agreeing to spend hundreds of billion replacing Trident if they have a leader that won't use it? I've seen various figures on the cost of it ranging from Â£150 billion up to Â£300 billion. I have no problem with Corbyn's stance on this as unlike many politicians he hasn't changed his views to gain votes but if he isn't prepared to use it then surely that money could be better spent elsewhere - NHS, education, social care etc.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Blinkered as usual or maybe the normal fishing trip.
		
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Goodness I am considered blinkered.... because I want to save the world from fools who want to destroy it.
Would you use first or second strike ? Tell us under what circumstances you would wish to start a nuclear wipe out..


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## User62651 (Jun 3, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			So what's the point in Labour agreeing to spend hundreds of billion replacing Trident if they have a leader that won't use it? I've seen various figures on the cost of it ranging from Â£150 billion up to Â£300 billion. I have no problem with Corbyn's stance on this as unlike many politicians he hasn't changed his views to gain votes but if he isn't prepared to use it then surely that money could be better spent elsewhere - NHS, education, social care etc.
		
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He doesn't like or support trident renewal personally but Labour voted the renewal policy in, he follows the Labour party democratic will, yes he tries to influence it his way but ultimately the Party says that's how the policy is to be. Of course money could be better spent elsewhere, they're a necessary expensive evil in governments eyes, those NATO member countries that aren't nuclear weaponed themselves but are backed up by others who are, have a big advantage economically over us, who cant really afford them in these days of austerity and debt. 
Only time they've been used in war by USA was when no-one else had them, since multiple countries developed them since there is no advantage any longer, the nuclear arms race really is madness and arsenals have been reduced but no-one will give them up totally.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness I am considered blinkered.... because I want to save the world from fools who want to destroy it.
Would you use first or second strike ? Tell us under what circumstances you would wish to start a nuclear wipe out..
		
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I already answered that but as you didn't comprehend it I will explain again slowly for you.  No civilised country would use nuclear weapons as a first strike, to do so would be abhorrent, the problem the world isn't made up of civilised people and we have no way of understanding what threats may occur in the future. Unless all countries agree to nuclear proliferation then giving them up makes the world a much more dangerous place, having a deterrent makes unstable governments think twice about using them as they know the consequences would be self destruction.   Regarding the use of them in retaliation, yes I agree we should let people know we would do this, this is the deterrent, if you destroy millions of our people we will destroy yours , yes this sounds barbaric but it is the best we can do.  If we gave up our nuclear weapons then there would be one more country unable to defend NATO. Countries like Russia, China, North Korea and Iran would then take great pleasure in our new found impedance.

I hope for the last time this makes my view clear to you but somehow knowing the way you operate I somehow doubt it.


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm not a fan of it but unfortunately other more unstable regimes like France and the US have so there is a need but if your not even capable of considering a first strike option then you might as well get rid. Using it in retaliation is a bit late IMHO.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not a fan of it but unfortunately other more unstable regimes like France and the US have so there is a need but if your not even capable of considering a first strike option then you might as well get rid. Using it in retaliation is a bit late IMHO.
		
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Not if it's launched from a sub.  As long as the perpetrator understands you will do it its a deterrent.  Corbyn wont even use it in retaliation.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not if it's launched from a sub.  As long as the perpetrator understands you will do it its a deterrent.  Corbyn wont even use it in retaliation.
		
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I think Corbyn is considering pillow fights to resolve major conflicts. I can picture a Monty Python-esque skit...


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## Old Skier (Jun 3, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not if it's launched from a sub.  As long as the perpetrator understands you will do it its a deterrent.  Corbyn wont even use it in retaliation.
		
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My point is, if the country has been destroyed not sure what the point would be as everyone else with one would have launched. If we going to use them let everyone know you are happy  to wipe everyone out first.

Remember well as trip to our deployment site which was under the control of the yanks. The big cheese told us all that if the bad boys came to expect a tac nuclear warhead to drop on our heads.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2017)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...general-election-2017-manifesto-a7769866.html

Phlameing Nora......another U Turn.

Social housing this time.

She should have run all these obvious disasters through her cabinet instead of writing her manifesto alone. Silly silly woman


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2017)

I watched QT.  Whilst May didn't screw up I have a real problem with how she deals with the cap on payments for social care.  Under questioning on this she was adamant that there was always going to be a cap.  Just that they hadn't decided what it would be and would do so following 'consultation'.  I just do not believe this - she is lying through her teeth.  No wonder she usually looks uncomfortable being questioned.  She knows she's lying.  

May is treating the electorate as idiots - as gullible fools.  If there was going to be a cap then the policy in the manifesto and her presentation of it would have said that there was going to be a cap - to be decided through consultation.  The existence of a cap would be fundamental to the policy (as she discovered) but there was absolutely no mention of a cap whatsoever.  But she stands there lying to us - affronted that we might suggest a cap was never in the plan.  She is lying so obviously it is disgraceful.

And where is Hammond to answer the question on what assumption have they made in respect of this 'budget raising' measure.  Because un undefined cap will raise an undefined amount of money.

Yes - politicians make promises - some they keep- some they don't - some they might never really intend to deliver.  But May lying about the cap is different because she is asking us to trust HER.  Much is said about Corbyn being dangerous for UK - ay least he has principles that he sticks to - absolutely.  I fear that May is looking more and more dangerous and unreliable day-by-day.


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## drdel (Jun 3, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I watched QT.  Whilst May didn't screw up I have a real problem with how she deals with the cap on payments for social care.  Under questioning on this she was adamant that there was always going to be a cap.  Just that they hadn't decided what it would be and would do so following 'consultation'.  I just do not believe this - she is lying through her teeth.  No wonder she usually looks uncomfortable being questioned.  She knows she's lying.  

May is treating the electorate as idiots - as gullible fools.  If there was going to be a cap then the policy in the manifesto and her presentation of it would have said that there was going to be a cap - to be decided through consultation.  The existence of a cap would be fundamental to the policy (as she discovered) but there was absolutely no mention of a cap whatsoever.  But she stands there lying to us - affronted that we might suggest a cap was never in the plan.  She is lying so obviously it is disgraceful.

And where is Hammond to answer the question on what assumption have they made in respect of this 'budget raising' measure.  Because un undefined cap will raise an undefined amount of money.

Yes - politicians make promises - some they keep- some they don't - some they might never really intend to deliver.  But May lying about the cap is different because she is asking us to trust HER.  Much is said about Corbyn being dangerous for UK - ay least he has principles that he sticks to - absolutely.  I fear that May is looking more and more dangerous and unreliable day-by-day.
		
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Its obvious that the red mist takes over. To categorically call Theresa May a liar in writing may not be your wisest move. 

In your simple world TM lies yet JC is the front of truth. Is this the same wonderland where Alice has conversations with a White Rabbit?


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

drdel said:



			Its obvious that the red mist takes over. To categorically call Theresa May a liar in writing may not be your wisest move. 

In your simple world TM lies yet JC is the front of truth. Is this the same wonderland where Alice has conversations with a White Rabbit?
		
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Only Tory lie don't you know.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Only Tory lie don't you know.
		
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I think it's more the fact that when any Party lies and is caught out, rather than admitting to it or discussing it, people throw accussations back and deflect from the lie.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2017)

Going back to policies,

Im struggling to see what the problem is with the Tory's so called "Dementia Tax"

at the moment, if you need long term care, then you have to pay for it, pay for it now, possibly sell your home, and keep paying until you die or are down to your last Â£23250.
at which point the state/local council kicks in and takes over.  

Under the proposed scheme, if you need long term care , you wouldnt need to pay for it now, there would be no need to sell your house while you were alive, when you died, the cost of care would be reclaimed from the sale of your house. but they would leave your estate with Â£100,000 (4 times the current limit)

its not perfect, but its better. the addition of a cap is better still and there would have to be arrangements for surviving partners, ie house is sold after 2nd death and the limit is Â£100,000 each, so Â£200,000 would be left in a joint estate. (assuming both needed care)

I cant see why its getting all the bad press?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

I do understand the costs are very big to the state but what seems wrong is if someone becomes ill with any other condition the state covers the costs of treatment, if someone suffers vascular dementia then they have to pay through their estate.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Going back to policies,

Im struggling to see what the problem is with the Tory's so called "Dementia Tax"

at the moment, if you need long term care, then you have to pay for it, pay for it now, possibly sell your home, and keep paying until you die or are down to your last Â£23250.
at which point the state/local council kicks in and takes over.  

Under the proposed scheme, if you need long term care , you wouldnt need to pay for it now, there would be no need to sell your house while you were alive, when you died, the cost of care would be reclaimed from the sale of your house. but they would leave your estate with Â£100,000 (4 times the current limit)

its not perfect, but its better. the addition of a cap is better still and there would have to be arrangements for surviving partners, ie house is sold after 2nd death and the limit is Â£100,000 each, so Â£200,000 would be left in a joint estate. (assuming both needed care)

I cant see why its getting all the bad press?
		
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Bit like the dreaded poll tax. The concept, in my opinion was good. Pay for use. Why should an 80 yr old, single person pay the same as a family of 4 adults next door?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I do understand the costs are very big to the state but what seems wrong is if someone becomes ill with any other condition the state covers the costs of treatment, if someone suffers vascular dementia then they have to pay through their estate.
		
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Totally agree with this.
 Yet another ill thought out plan by the Tories.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2017)

If you need care, in a home or in your own home, for whatever  reason, you will need to pay for it, this includes people who have had strokes,cardio, pulmonary,  falls or just frail and nothing to do with dementia

I do accept that a large number of people seeking care are dementia sufferers . but if they need care, the proposed system is better than the old system for everyone.

in my opinion
certainly not perfect, but better


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I do understand the costs are very big to the state but what seems wrong is if someone becomes ill with any other condition the state covers the costs of treatment, if someone suffers vascular dementia then they have to pay through their estate.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Totally agree with this.
 Yet another ill thought out plan by the Tories.
		
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But what is the right answer? Who should pay? Is the answer that most people have already paid via NI and tax? Just where is it going so wrong?

Its pretty clear a number of areas, e.g. the NHS, education and the welfare state need a decent cash injection. Taxing the super rich brings in little more as there are relatively few of them. That's just a vote grab, creating a story that rich is bad. A left wing version of the sort of thing you'd see in the DM. I'd much sooner see a 1p the pound off everyone, but raise the allowance for those on minimum wage

It it would bring in more. And scrap HS2 and the 3rd runway for LHR = spend less on vanity projects.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But what is the right answer? Who should pay? Is the answer that most people have already paid via NI and tax? Just where is it going so wrong?

Its pretty clear a number of areas, e.g. the NHS, education and the welfare state need a decent cash injection. Taxing the super rich brings in little more as there are relatively few of them. That's just a vote grab, creating a story that rich is bad. A left wing version of the sort of thing you'd see in the DM. I'd much sooner see a 1p the pound off everyone, but raise the allowance for those on minimum wage

It it would bring in more. And scrap HS2 and the 3rd runway for LHR = spend less on vanity projects.
		
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Maybe due to the fact that we have moved into an era with higher numbers of older people that will result in a need for more geriatric care we should consider an insurance scheme where we pay over say 30 years for our care costs , otherwise the cost will come from our estate if possible.

One of the issues at he moment is that anyone who does not create any wealth will get the service completely free, it almost encourages people to go on a spending frenzy as they get older or make large cash presents to their children. People could also take out one of these loans against their property that get paid back with interest when they die from the properties value.   Surely an insurance scheme would be better although it's a bit late for the boomers.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But what is the right answer? Who should pay? Is the answer that most people have already paid via NI and tax? Just where is it going so wrong?

Its pretty clear a number of areas, e.g. the NHS, education and the welfare state need a decent cash injection. Taxing the super rich brings in little more as there are relatively few of them. That's just a vote grab, creating a story that rich is bad. A left wing version of the sort of thing you'd see in the DM. I'd much sooner see a 1p the pound off everyone, but raise the allowance for those on minimum wage

It it would bring in more. And scrap HS2 and the 3rd runway for LHR = spend less on vanity projects.
		
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Agree with all of that apart form the transportation bits.  I would argue a transport system fit for purpose is needed as part of a modern nation.  But I see no issue with adding a bit of tax on so our public services work.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Agree with all of that apart form the transportation bits.  I would argue a transport system fit for purpose is needed as part of a modern nation.  But I see no issue with adding a bit of tax on so our public services work.
		
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I would say London Euston to Birmingham New Street talking 1 hour 25 mins is perfectly acceptable, especially as such a short journey will only see 20 mins saved. If it was improving the line from a shunter to high speed I'd agree with you but it's a huge amount of money, that could better used elsewhere, for negligible gain.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - politicians make promises - some they keep- some they don't - some they might never really intend to deliver.  But May lying about the cap is different because she is asking us to trust HER.  Much is said about Corbyn being dangerous for UK - ay least he has principles that he sticks to - absolutely.  I fear that May is looking more and more dangerous and unreliable day-by-day.
		
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You rip May for her miss spokes but don't highlight any of Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell miss spokes. They're equally as bad.

Did Corbyn unequivocally say he approved of the shoot to kill employed in London last night? No he didn't. Do I trust him with the security of this country? No, absolutely not.

All 4 politicians miss speak but there's only one I trust with our security.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You rip May for her miss spokes but don't highlight any of Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell miss spokes. They're equally as bad.

Did Corbyn unequivocally say he approved of the shoot to kill employed in London last night? No he didn't. Do I trust him with the security of this country? No, absolutely not.

All 4 politicians miss speak but there's only one I trust with our security.
		
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How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

Not happy with SF size but just one little point. The RAF have been using hired in ac since the early 80s. I would also point out that all governments have been cutting the SF since the 70s.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.
		
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The aftermath of Manchester and London last night would indicate that our security forces are spot on point.

again I agree that in a perfect world, there would be more of each section, but cuts had to be made everywhere to try and sort out the financial mess that Labour left.
Armed forces etc are an easy target,as they are expensive but again I agree that you do not want to cut them any more .


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## SteveJay (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.
		
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It's all OK now......ISIS are trembling in their boots, as May has said "enough is enough" 
Well PM, show some bloody leadership and tell us what you are going to do now enough is enough. Then I might consider voting for your party!!!


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The aftermath of Manchester and London last night would indicate that our security forces are spot on point.

again I agree that in a perfect world, there would be more of each section, but cuts had to be made everywhere to try and sort out the financial mess that Labour left.
Armed forces etc are an easy target,as they are expensive but again I agree that you do not want to cut them any more .
		
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Especially since the one army concept has completly failed.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

SteveJay said:



			It's all OK now......ISIS are trembling in their boots, as May has said "enough is enough" 
Well PM, show some bloody leadership and tell us what you are going to do now enough is enough. Then I might consider voting for your party!!!
		
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Yes that's right and anything she tries to do will be decried by people like you.  How tough do you think she should be then?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The aftermath of Manchester and London last night would indicate that our security forces are spot on point.

again I agree that in a perfect world, there would be more of each section, but cuts had to be made everywhere to try and sort out the financial mess that Labour left.
Armed forces etc are an easy target,as they are expensive but again I agree that you do not want to cut them any more .
		
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Last night it showed me the excellent reaction to such attrocities of the Police,  she accussed the police of scaremongering when they claimed they wouldn't be able to cope and we'd see troops on the streets, last week we witnessed another u turn when troops deployed on to the streets, we can't keep going back and blaming labour, the tories have had 7 years, 7 years of reducing the Police and Armed Forces, 7 years of rise in crime, today "enough is enough" why wasn't it enough after Westminster or Lee Rigby.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes that's right and anything she tries to do will be decried by people like you.  How tough do you think she should be then?
		
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Remember Fragger's mantra!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.
		
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There is a very big program underway to supply new ships to the Navy and aricraft to the RAF and Navy, the Army is probably better equipped now than they have been for many years.  Are you suggesting all was great seven years ago? Much that has happened is a reflection of what has been done in the past.  It also amuses me how people make comments about how we cant be the policeman of the World, are no longer a World power, should not get ourselves involved in foreign affairs but then complain the Government has not given us a powerful armed service.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			There is a very big program underway to supply new ships to the Navy and aricraft to the RAF and Navy, the Army is probably better equipped now than they have been for many years.  Are you suggesting all was great seven years ago? Much that has happened is a reflection of what has been done in the past.  It also amuses me how people make comments about how we cant be the policeman of the World, are no longer a World power, should not get ourselves involved in foreign affairs but then complain the Government has not given us a powerful armed service.
		
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It amuses me also when people make those comments about foreign and world affairs.

No matter what new programmes are underway it's based on a smaller Armed Forces, it's not the forces personnel who are making the decisions to be over stretched by over commitment, morale in some parts are lower than they've ever been.

The better equipment has come about by succesive governments being embarrassed by sending us on operations ill equiped.

I am certainly not claiming Corbyn or Labour would be any better, blaming or questioning them is simply deflection, only 1 party recently and currently have the responsibility and that's the tories.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Last night it showed me the excellent reaction to such attrocities of the Police,  she accussed the police of scaremongering when they claimed they wouldn't be able to cope and we'd see troops on the streets, last week we witnessed another u turn when troops deployed on to the streets, we can't keep going back and blaming labour, the tories have had 7 years, 7 years of reducing the Police and Armed Forces, 7 years of rise in crime, today "enough is enough" why wasn't it enough after Westminster or Lee Rigby.
		
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I don't think it is fair to describe the troops on our streets as a U turn.
It was in response to the security level being raised to critical, which is not Her call, it is the call of the independent body and is non political.
The level has reduced back to severe and the troops have gone back to duties, although personally, I'd have kept the critical level till after the GE.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			the Army is probably better equipped now than they have been for many years.
		
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Not really but I did notice the word probably.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I don't think it is fair to describe the troops on our streets as a U turn.
It was in response to the security level being raised to critical, which is not Her call, it is the call of the independent body and is non political.
The level has reduced back to severe and the troops have gone back to duties, although personally, I'd have kept the critical level till after the GE.
		
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She was Home Secretary when she mocked the Police a little over 2 years ago, now as the PM she has the final say on JTAC recomendations.

There's a lot more that goes on keeping the alert state at critical than simply troops on the street, it's not sustainable for long periods.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Not really but I did notice the word probably.
		
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I used probably as I can only use the information I read. If you have better knowledge then please explain.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Last night it showed me the excellent reaction to such attrocities of the Police,  she accussed the police of scaremongering when they claimed they wouldn't be able to cope and we'd see troops on the streets, last week we witnessed another u turn when troops deployed on to the streets, we can't keep going back and blaming labour, the tories have had 7 years, 7 years of reducing the Police and Armed Forces, 7 years of rise in crime, today "enough is enough" why wasn't it enough after Westminster or Lee Rigby.
		
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Like like like thumbs up etc etc...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			It amuses me also when people make those comments about foreign and world affairs.

No matter what new programmes are underway it's based on a smaller Armed Forces, it's not the forces personnel who are making the decisions to be over stretched by over commitment, morale in some parts are lower than they've ever been.

The better equipment has come about by succesive governments being embarrassed by sending us on operations ill equiped.

I am certainly not claiming Corbyn or Labour would be any better, blaming or questioning them is simply deflection, only 1 party recently and currently have the responsibility and that's the tories.
		
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This man is on fire today.....


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.
		
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PhilTheFragger said:



			The aftermath of Manchester and London last night would indicate that our security forces are spot on point.

again I agree that in a perfect world, there would be more of each section, but cuts had to be made everywhere to try and sort out the financial mess that Labour left.
Armed forces etc are an easy target,as they are expensive but again I agree that you do not want to cut them any more .
		
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. A deficit far greater than Greece, and a GDP heading in the same direction needed drastic action. Were the cuts too deep and too quick? Could the Lee Rigby, Westminster, Manchester, London Bridge incidents have been predicted? No.

Would any govt, knowing those, and Paris, Berlin and Nice were on the horizon made those cuts? No.

Putting troops on the streets was wrong. They're not trained as police. The behind the wire guarding of places like Westminster I can agree with, but walking the streets... it was needed but I'll never agree with it. And yes, the Police cuts went too deep.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I don't think it is fair to describe the troops on our streets as a U turn.
It was in response to the security level being raised to critical, which is not Her call, it is the call of the independent body and is non political.
The level has reduced back to severe and the troops have gone back to duties, although personally, I'd have kept the critical level till after the GE.
		
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^^^^^^^   This.


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## richy (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How can you trust the tories with our security, all the security services have been slashed under their watch, we now have an Army that would comfortably fit into wembley stadium, a Navy with fewer ships and an Air Force that hires in Aeroplanes to move anywhere, add to that the 20,000 less coppers since 2010 and I really don't get this trust you have in them.
		
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:thup:


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## richy (Jun 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			She was Home Secretary when she mocked the Police a little over 2 years ago, now as the PM she has the final say on JTAC recomendations.

There's a lot more that goes on keeping the alert state at critical than simply troops on the street, it's not sustainable for long periods.
		
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Scaremongering was the term she used.


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## richy (Jun 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I don't think it is fair to describe the troops on our streets as a U turn.
It was in response to the security level being raised to critical, which is not Her call, it is the call of the independent body and is non political.
The level has reduced back to severe and the troops have gone back to duties, although personally, I'd have kept the critical level till after the GE.
		
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The troops were deployed because the police have been stripped bare. Her doing!!!!


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I used probably as I can only use the information I read. If you have better knowledge then please explain.
		
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1. Always best not to believe everything that you read.
2. As someone who regularly mixes with an visits a front line Regiment and can only say my knowledge is gained from what I see and hear, but there again, squaddies are always moaning about something.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			1. Always best not to believe everything that you read.
2. As someone who regularly mixes with an visits a front line Regiment and can only say my knowledge is gained from what I see and hear, but there again, squaddies are always moaning about something.
		
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:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You rip May for her miss spokes but don't highlight any of Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell miss spokes. They're equally as bad.

Did Corbyn unequivocally say he approved of the shoot to kill employed in London last night? No he didn't. Do I trust him with the security of this country? No, absolutely not.

All 4 politicians miss speak but there's only one I trust with our security.
		
Click to expand...

If May insisting that the policy always included a cap when it clearly didn't is not a fib then what is it? Yet she stands there all brass neck and insists that - oh yes - there was always a cap - we just forgot to mention it in our manifesto and when I launched the manifesto.  

This is our PM - the woman we are supposed to put our trust in over Brexit - when she has either done a complete U-turn on that or was again simply fibbing before the vote.   When she became Tory Leader she sold herself on being straight with us - when she is being anything but.  No costings in their manifesto and nothing substantial being discussed on Brexit.  For goodness sake - at least we should get to know what _No Deal_ might mean.  But again - I suspect that there is no _No Deal_ - it being just not realistic and too damaging - and just another tale she is spinning to satisfy the UKIP wing of her party.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If May insisting that the policy always included a cap when it clearly didn't is not a fib then what is it? Yet she stands there all brass neck and insists that - oh yes - there was always a cap - we just forgot to mention it in our manifesto and when I launched the manifesto.  

This is our PM - the woman we are supposed to put our trust in over Brexit - when she has either done a complete U-turn on that or was again simply fibbing before the vote.   When she became Tory Leader she sold herself on being straight with us - when she is being anything but.  No costings in their manifesto and nothing substantial being discussed on Brexit.  For goodness sake - at least we should get to know what _No Deal_ might mean.  But again - I suspect that there is no _No Deal_ - it being just not realistic and too damaging - and just another tale she is spinning to satisfy the UKIP wing of her party.
		
Click to expand...

She said they were putting out a Green Paper on it.  You do know how that works, do you?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

richy said:



			The troops were deployed because the police have been stripped bare. Her doing!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Some of you are just making it up. When the security level becomes 'Critical' then Troops are put on the street to back up the police. What is it about that you find difficult to understand?  When the level was lowered they were removed.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If May insisting that the policy always included a cap when it clearly didn't is not a fib then what is it? Yet she stands there all brass neck and insists that - oh yes - there was always a cap - we just forgot to mention it in our manifesto and when I launched the manifesto.  

This is our PM - the woman we are supposed to put our trust in over Brexit - when she has either done a complete U-turn on that or was again simply fibbing before the vote.   When she became Tory Leader she sold herself on being straight with us - when she is being anything but.  No costings in their manifesto and nothing substantial being discussed on Brexit.  For goodness sake - at least we should get to know what _No Deal_ might mean.  But again - I suspect that there is no _No Deal_ - it being just not realistic and too damaging - and just another tale she is spinning to satisfy the UKIP wing of her party.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have missed my point. All of them fib!

I see Corbyn has learned the art of the U-turn. He's gone from not supporting shoot to kill to now saying he'll support the police in any level of force they deem appropriate.


----------



## shagster (Jun 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Some of you are just making it up. When the security level becomes 'Critical' then Troops are put on the street to back up the police. What is it about that you find difficult to understand?  When the level was lowered they were removed.
		
Click to expand...

That's a bit rich from the editor of the daily mail


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2017)

shagster said:



			That's a bit rich from the editor of the daily mail
		
Click to expand...

Another rather silly post.


----------



## richy (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Some of you are just making it up. When the security level becomes 'Critical' then Troops are put on the street to back up the police. What is it about that you find difficult to understand?  When the level was lowered they were removed.
		
Click to expand...

What I'm finding difficult to understand is why after being warned repeatedly by experts that we risk becoming more and more vulnerable by cutting security services, she went ahead and done it anyway. 

Her arrogance knows no bounds


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Some of you are just making it up. When the security level becomes 'Critical' then Troops are put on the street to back up the police. What is it about that you find difficult to understand?  When the level was lowered they were removed.
		
Click to expand...

Rubbish, they are simply another tool in her toolbox, 
We won't see troops everytime the alert state goes to Critical.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies

Find your own constituency and see how much you know about it.........quite interesting........I got lost on the way to the shops


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies

Find your own constituency and see how much you know about it.........quite interesting........I got lost on the way to the shops

Click to expand...

I liked the property prices one, as there was a lot of spare room on the right of the scale where I live.  Got it within 2 grand though which I was proud of.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2017)

I answered one for my old constituency in England and did a lot better. 20 years since I have lived there.
Quite surprised how close it was now to my Scottish one.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You seem to have missed my point. All of them fib!

I see Corbyn has learned the art of the U-turn. He's gone from not supporting shoot to kill to now saying he'll support the police in any level of force they deem appropriate.
		
Click to expand...

I know they do - but only get found out AFTER they get elected.  But this is obvious a blatant fib and she stands there insistent that there was always going to be a cap subsequent to a consultative Green Paper.  Really?  I quote from page 65 of the Conservative Party Manifesto 2017

_Under the current system, care costs deplete an individualâ€™s assets, including in some
cases the family home, down to Â£23,250 or even less. These costs can be catastrophic
for those with modest or medium wealth. One purpose of long-term saving is to cover
needs in old age; those who can should rightly contribute to their care from savings
and accumulated wealth, rather than expecting current and future taxpayers to carry
the cost on their behalf. Moreover, many older people have built considerable property
assets due to rising property prices. Reconciling these competing pressures fairly and in
a sustainable way has challenged many governments of the past. We intend to tackle this
with three connected measures.

First, we will align the future basis for means-testing for domiciliary care with that for
residential care, so that people are looked after in the place that is best for them. This will
mean that the value of the family home will be taken into account along with other assets
and income, whether care is provided at home, or in a residential or nursing care home.

Second, to ensure this is fair, we will introduce a single capital floor, set at Â£100,000,
more than four times the current means test threshold. This will ensure that, no matter
how large the cost of care turns out to be, people will always retain at least Â£100,000 of
their savings and assets, including value in the family home.

Third, we will extend the current freedom to defer payments for residential care to those
receiving care at home, so no-one will have to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for care.
We believe this powerful combination maximises protection for pensioner households
with modest assets, often invested in the family home, while remaining affordable
for taxpayers. We consider it more equitable, within and across the generations, than
the proposals following the Dilnot Report, which mostly benefited a small number of
wealthier people._

It's not there is it?  Neither the cap nor the green Paper.  And it would be pretty darned critical to state that there would be a cap if the intention was to have one.  The omission was not a mistake.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 5, 2017)

But cap or no cap, it's better than the current system

The day after the labour manifesto was published Jezza added an extra bit regarding writing off existing student loans ( nobody is having a go at him for changing published policy or for it being unaffordable)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



*But cap or no cap, it's better than the current system*

The day after the labour manifesto was published Jezza added an extra bit regarding writing off existing student loans ( nobody is having a go at him for changing published policy or for it being unaffordable)
		
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy.  

But many elderly homeowners and their families clearly do not see the lack of a cap as making a good policy - for them a cap is utterly fundamental to it being acceptable of not.  And there is absolutely no mention of cap or consultation about one in the manifesto.  None at all.  Yet May stands there - brass neck - complaining that their policy has been misrepresented, scaremongering.  Saying that the consultation on a cap was always intended.  Just not true.  If she can stand in front of us and brazenly fib when seeking our support what else is she saying that we can't believe a word of.  She is totally untrustworthy.  What price a calamitous Brexit _No Deal_?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

richy said:



			What I'm finding difficult to understand is why after being warned repeatedly by experts that we risk becoming more and more vulnerable by cutting security services, she went ahead and done it anyway. 

Her arrogance knows no bounds
		
Click to expand...

You just dont want to understand why.  Where would you cut public services if you had to do it, the country has a massive debt that is fed by public spending.  How about taking out of public sector pensions, Social Housing, Welfare benefits, where would the cuts be made that would satisfy you and don't suggest they didn't need to be made.

Oh! and cutting MP's expenses wouldn't be the answer just in case that turns up.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You just dont want to understand why.  Where would you cut public services if you had to do it, the country has a massive debt that is fed by public spending.  How about taking out of public sector pensions, Social Housing, Welfare benefits, where would the cuts be made that would satisfy you and don't suggest they didn't need to be made.
		
Click to expand...

Take it out of MP's pay rises and cut their expenses or the overseas aid budget or increase taxes for everyone by a penny or chase after the tax dodgers or use the pot that they found to rescue the banks.

Health and Security of the nation should come first.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, they are simply another tool in her toolbox, 
We won't see troops everytime the alert state goes to Critical.
		
Click to expand...

Why was it done then, are you suggesting it was because we didnt have enough Police?  You are being very simplistic in your condemnation IMO.


----------



## richy (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You just dont want to understand why.  Where would you cut public services if you had to do it, the country has a massive debt that is fed by public spending.  How about taking out of public sector pensions, Social Housing, Welfare benefits, where would the cuts be made that would satisfy you and don't suggest they didn't need to be made.

Oh! and cutting MP's expenses wouldn't be the answer just in case that turns up.
		
Click to expand...




pauldj42 said:



			Take it out of MP's pay rises and cut their expenses or the overseas aid budget or increase taxes for everyone by a penny or chase after the tax dodgers or use the pot that they found to rescue the banks.

Health and Security of the nation should come first.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Why was it done then, are you suggesting it was because we didnt have enough Police?  You are being very simplistic in your condemnation IMO.
		
Click to expand...

If you listened or read the Government announcement then you would of heard or read that yes it was that simplistic, they put Troops on the streets in high profile areas to release police back to policeing, ie, they didn't have enough Police to provide adequate security to said places and carry on with other duties, therefore we either don't have enough Police or they are being mismanaged, which one do you think it was?


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

I would just like to remind everyone that using troops on the streets during levels of hieghten security is not a new thing. Late seventies I was regularly parked up at Heathrow in my little Scimitar.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			don't have enough Police or they are being mismanaged, which one do you think it was?
		
Click to expand...

Bit of both is the honest answer.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Bit of both is the honest answer.
		
Click to expand...

Both still the responsibility of TM


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Both still the responsibility of TM
		
Click to expand...

Get the cops back on speeding tickets and let the boys have some fun


----------



## richy (Jun 5, 2017)

Amazing scenes on the banks of the Tyne tonight. Thousands turn out to listen to Jeremy Corbyn.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If you listened or read the Government announcement then you would of heard or read that yes it was that simplistic, they put Troops on the streets in high profile areas to release police back to policeing, ie, they didn't have enough Police to provide adequate security to said places and carry on with other duties, therefore we either don't have enough Police or they are being mismanaged, which one do you think it was?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it was either of them. I have already explained why we saw Troops on the Street and why.  If you wish to make some kind of anti Tory point score from it then that's your prerogative, I just don't subscribe to it.   Police numbers have fallen and it's all part of the massive deficit created in 2010, painful cuts have been made to do something about it and if Labour are allowed to get into Government then all the hardship we have been through will be wasted as they will just borrow us into the same mess again.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not sure if it was either of them. I have already explained why we saw Troops on the Street and why.  If you wish to make some kind of anti Tory point score from it then that's your prerogative, I just don't subscribe to it.   Police numbers have fallen and it's all part of the massive deficit created in 2010, painful cuts have been made to do something about it and if Labour are allowed to get into Government then all the hardship we have been through will be wasted as they will just borrow us into the same mess again.
		
Click to expand...

You don't subscribe to the "borrowing may stimulate" the Economy then? I would argue that despite all the austerity from the Tories, we're still in a deficit, and the debt is still getting bigger. Is it still Labour's fault, or is it actually more of an issue about tax coming in? Despite the "austerity", tax rates for business have consistently been falling under the Tories, to a much lower level than lots of places in Europe. It could of course, be argued that this is why the economy has done so well. Or it could be argued it would have done well with slightly higher rates and we would have generated more tax. Hard to know really. I guess my rambling point is that it's a bit simple to point at Labour borrowing last time and say "it's bad". The bad thing was the *global* crises. Bit harsh to blame them for that isn't it? That would be just as simple as listening to Theresa May and assuming that because she keeps saying "strong and stable", she actually is.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not sure if it was either of them. I have already explained why we saw Troops on the Street and why.  If you wish to make some kind of anti Tory point score from it then that's your prerogative, I just don't subscribe to it.   Police numbers have fallen and it's all part of the massive deficit created in 2010, painful cuts have been made to do something about it and if Labour are allowed to get into Government then all the hardship we have been through will be wasted as they will just borrow us into the same mess again.
		
Click to expand...

Eh! You asked me a question and I answered, the reasons I stated were the ones from the government, I've also previously stated I'm not claiming Corbyn or Labour would be better, but instead of accepting responsibility as they have been in power since 2010 it's once again deflected back to Labour.
How many years in power is acceptable before whoever it is take responsibility for all decisions during their control?


----------



## richy (Jun 5, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not sure if it was either of them. I have already explained why we saw Troops on the Street and why.  If you wish to make some kind of anti Tory point score from it then that's your prerogative, I just don't subscribe to it.   Police numbers have fallen and it's all part of the massive deficit created in 2010, painful cuts have been made to do something about it and if Labour are allowed to get into Government then all the hardship we have been through will be wasted as they will just borrow us into the same mess again.
		
Click to expand...

Who are you to know the real reason they where on the streets? Are you "in the know?"

The tories have had enough time and have made things worse. Hopefully their time is up. And if you'd actually been through any sort of hardship you certainly wouldn't want to give them another term.


----------



## drdel (Jun 5, 2017)

Some you might remember a few years back that Labour also supported reducing police numbers.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

Wondering how long we have to wait until we can afford to put in the money necessary to move schools and the NHS out of the Red Zone into Amber and Green - because as long as we wait - the worse the situation gets, the NHS and schools continue to fall apart - and the more children and patients the system fails.

Balancing the books and spending within our means is all very well - but a 'make do and mend' approach both stores up major problems or collapse for the future, and fails us today.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know they do - but only get found out AFTER they get elected.  But this is obvious a blatant fib and she stands there insistent that there was always going to be a cap subsequent to a consultative Green Paper.  Really?  I quote from page 65 of the Conservative Party Manifesto 2017

_Under the current system, care costs deplete an individualâ€™s assets, including in some
cases the family home, down to Â£23,250 or even less. These costs can be catastrophic
for those with modest or medium wealth. One purpose of long-term saving is to cover
needs in old age; those who can should rightly contribute to their care from savings
and accumulated wealth, rather than expecting current and future taxpayers to carry
the cost on their behalf. Moreover, many older people have built considerable property
assets due to rising property prices. Reconciling these competing pressures fairly and in
a sustainable way has challenged many governments of the past. We intend to tackle this
with three connected measures.

First, we will align the future basis for means-testing for domiciliary care with that for
residential care, so that people are looked after in the place that is best for them. This will
mean that the value of the family home will be taken into account along with other assets
and income, whether care is provided at home, or in a residential or nursing care home.

Second, to ensure this is fair, we will introduce a single capital floor, set at Â£100,000,
more than four times the current means test threshold. This will ensure that, no matter
how large the cost of care turns out to be, people will always retain at least Â£100,000 of
their savings and assets, including value in the family home.

Third, we will extend the current freedom to defer payments for residential care to those
receiving care at home, so no-one will have to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for care.
We believe this powerful combination maximises protection for pensioner households
with modest assets, often invested in the family home, while remaining affordable
for taxpayers. We consider it more equitable, within and across the generations, than
the proposals following the Dilnot Report, which mostly benefited a small number of
wealthier people._

It's not there is it?  Neither the cap nor the green Paper.  And it would be pretty darned critical to state that there would be a cap if the intention was to have one.  The omission was not a mistake.
		
Click to expand...

Still wondering where in the manifesto pledge above I find mention of the cap on individual contributions to social care and the consultations about the cap.

Anyone? - from the black squiggly bits rather than the white spaces in between please?

Then tell me how how the PM can claim with a straight and earnest face that it was there all the time - just that we the dear readers - just didn't understand...


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Still wondering where in the manifesto pledge above I find mention of the cap on individual contributions to social care and the consultations about the cap.

Anyone? - from the black squiggly bits rather than the white spaces in between please?

Then tell me how how the PM can claim with a straight and earnest face that it was there all the time - just that we the dear readers - just didn't understand...
		
Click to expand...

If you read the Labour manifesto you will find similar gaps, e.g. The dubbed garden tax. But if you do a bit of digging, no pun intended, you will find that the Land Value Tax was announced at the 2016 LABOUR Conference.

Labour are sniping at the Tories for scaremongering about the garden tax but it's all out there if you look. The intention is to add 3% of the value of the land your house is built on to your council tax by 2020. 

For you in leafy Surrey Hugh, that's about Â£200 a month. Personally, I don't think it will ever reach the 3% but there will be a rise - page 86 of the Labour manifesto.

Are the Tories being disingenuous about the cap? Yes they are. Are Labour being disingenuous about the garden tax? Yes they are.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If you listened or read the Government announcement then you would of heard or read that yes it was that simplistic, they put Troops on the streets in high profile areas to release police back to policeing, ie, they didn't have enough Police to provide adequate security to said places and carry on with other duties, therefore we either don't have enough Police or they are being mismanaged,* which one do you think it was?*

Click to expand...




			
				pauldj42;1702779[B said:
			
		


			]Eh! You asked me a question[/B] and I answered, the reasons I stated were the ones from the government, I've also previously stated I'm not claiming Corbyn or Labour would be better, but instead of accepting responsibility as they have been in power since 2010 it's once again deflected back to Labour.
How many years in power is acceptable before whoever it is take responsibility for all decisions during their control?
		
Click to expand...

What do you mean by EH!  You asked me a question!


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## Imurg (Jun 6, 2017)

Anyone who doesn't get the result they want on Thursday, don't forget to blame the weather


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you mean by EH!  You asked me a question!
		
Click to expand...

I answered why troops were on the streets and you went on about political point scoring without answering what I'd put, once again nice deflection!


----------



## User62651 (Jun 6, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Anyone who doesn't get the result they want on Thursday, don't forget to blame the weather
		
Click to expand...

Predicitons for overall turnout % Thursday
I'll start us off with a middling 64%.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 6, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Anyone who doesn't get the result they want on Thursday, don't forget to blame the weather
		
Click to expand...

Raining all day Thursday up here. Who wins when that happens, do we know or is it just "the other side"?

Add to the last post, I'll go 57%. I think people are bored with politics.


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 6, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Predicitons for overall turnout % Thursday
I'll start us off with a middling 64%.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully higher going by all those on social media that pretend to care.


----------



## drdel (Jun 6, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully higher going by all those on social media that pretend to care.
		
Click to expand...

That would mean getting off their backsides and doing something in the real world _ never happen!


----------



## spongebob59 (Jun 6, 2017)

Originally posted in wrong thread 

Another car crash from Abbott :

http://news.sky.com/video/diane-abbo...eview-10905600


----------



## ger147 (Jun 6, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Originally posted in wrong thread 

Another car crash from Abbott :

http://news.sky.com/video/diane-abbo...eview-10905600



Click to expand...

Serious question - does she have learning difficulties? Or does she just completely freeze and forget anything and everything as soon as someone points a camera at her?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

Tories praying for bad weather so that the under 25s and feckless can't be bothered getting themselves to the Polling Station?

70%


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Raining all day Thursday up here. Who wins when that happens, do we know or is it just "the other side"?

Add to the last post, I'll go 57%. I think people are bored with politics.
		
Click to expand...

Can I call these people stupid if they are 'bored' (can't be ar**d more like - bored just an excuse) given how important this election is,  notwithstanding fact that Tories will walk it,.


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can I call these people stupid if they are 'bored' (can't be ar**d more like - bored just an excuse) given how important this election is,  notwithstanding fact that Tories will walk it,.
		
Click to expand...

It's very easy to not be ar**d... I've read up everything I can find on the folk that'll be on my ballot paper and not one of them is worthy of my vote or anyone else's for that matter... And, no way do I vote purely on the colour of a candidates rosette...


----------



## User62651 (Jun 6, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			It's very easy to not be ar**d... I've read up everything I can find on the folk that'll be on my ballot paper and not one of them is worthy of my vote or anyone else's for that matter... And, no way do I vote purely on the colour of a candidates rosette...
		
Click to expand...

Spoil a paper, good to keep voting whatever, it's a right many have died for.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 6, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Spoil a paper, good to keep voting whatever, it's a right many have died for.
		
Click to expand...

I did that last time. Same candidates 2yrs later. I'm feeling glum about the options but I will vote whatever.


----------



## drdel (Jun 6, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I did that last time. Same candidates 2yrs later. I'm feeling glum about the options but I will vote whatever.
		
Click to expand...

I share your thoughts - it's a sad state of affairs that these people will run our country; I'd be ashamed to be represented overseas by most of the candidates in the running. 

Politics has a poor image and I can't believe anyone with a modicum of intelligence putting themselves forward for a career as a politician when there are much more fulfilling and better paid jobs.


----------



## spongebob59 (Jun 6, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Originally posted in wrong thread 

Another car crash from Abbott :

http://news.sky.com/video/diane-abbo...eview-10905600



Click to expand...

Pulls out of R4 interview now.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2017/06/06...rst-interview-election-diane-abbott-sky-news/


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2017)

drdel said:



			I share your thoughts - it's a sad state of affairs that these people will run our country; I'd be ashamed to be represented overseas by most of the candidates in the running. 

*Politics has a poor image and I can't believe anyone with a modicum of intelligence putting themselves forward for a career as a politician when there are much more fulfilling and better paid jobs*.
		
Click to expand...

I would argue that there are many politicians that put in a hell of a lot of work and doing a great job for their constituency and the good of the whole nation, people like Jo Cox. My old local MP was also very good, he cared about his constituency and very little about climbing the greasy pole. I think that in order to get to the top in politics you have to exhibit many of the qualities that put the public off them so much. Hence the state of the current lot.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Pulls out of R4 interview now.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2017/06/06...rst-interview-election-diane-abbott-sky-news/

Click to expand...

Labour saying that she is unwell. That then changed to became unwell on her way to the studio when someone tweeted a photo of her at a nearby station chatting on her phone and not looking as though she was ill. But its a bit rich for the tories to be criticising her for pulling out of the interview when May did the same for her interview with Women's Hour.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Labour saying that she is unwell. That then changed to became unwell on her way to the studio when someone tweeted a photo of her at a nearby station chatting on her phone and not looking as though she was ill. But its a bit rich for the tories to be criticising her for pulling out of the interview when May did the same for her interview with Women's Hour.
		
Click to expand...

Its another migraine... yeh, right. Don't worry, she's only (potentially) the next Home Sec.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/where-the-money-is/#more-95692

Where the smart money is going.

I did predict 48 seats to the SNP a few weeks ago.
Very good result for them if that works out.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Its another migraine... yeh, right. Don't worry, she's only (potentially) the next Home Sec.
		
Click to expand...

Can't stand the woman but I would take her over the last but one Home Sec.


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## IanM (Jun 6, 2017)

Corbyn has written his victory speech.

He has got the transcript of Trump's Inauguration and replaced "AMERICA" with "United Kingdom" and "FIRST" with "last!     Simples. 

oh my, oh my!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 6, 2017)

IanM said:



			Corbyn has written his victory speech.

He has got the transcript of Trump's Inauguration and replaced "AMERICA" with "United Kingdom" and "FIRST" with "last!     Simples. 

oh my, oh my!
		
Click to expand...

I can tell that you seem to think it's funny/witty, but for the life of me all I see is someone who doesn't get it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would argue that there are many politicians that put in a hell of a lot of work and doing a great job for their constituency and the good of the whole nation, people like Jo Cox. My old local MP was also very good, he cared about his constituency and very little about climbing the greasy pole. I think that in order to get to the top in politics you have to exhibit many of the qualities that put the public off them so much. Hence the state of the current lot.
		
Click to expand...

Actually whatever we might think of him Jeremy Hunt is a pretty good, conscientious and responsive constituency MP.  At our constituency hustings on Friday all candidates put up a good show (barring the UKIP lad who 'unfortunately' got a lot of stick and frankly wasn't very good at all).   in particular Hunt knew his stuff as you'd expect; the Labour Party candidate was excellent (though one suspects a 'paper' candidate), and Dr Louise Irvine for the Progressive Alliance/National Health Action Party was very good and very well supported.  Lib Dem candidate made a reasonable fist of things but didn't convince - and most of his supporters will vote PA - as will most Labour supporters.  Hunt will still win it by a good margin.

But good show at the hustings, with 400+ in attendance.


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## IanM (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I can tell that you seem to think it's funny/witty, but for the life of me all I see is someone who doesn't get it...
		
Click to expand...

au contraire!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I can tell that you seem to think it's funny/witty, but for the life of me all I see is someone who doesn't get it...
		
Click to expand...

I get it and the thought of Corbyn in No 10 is anything but funny.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually whatever we might think of him Jeremy Hunt is a pretty good, conscientious and responsive constituency MP.  At our constituency hustings on Friday all candidates put up a good show (barring the UKIP lad who 'unfortunately' got a lot of stick and frankly wasn't very good at all).   in particular Hunt knew his stuff as you'd expect; the Labour Party candidate was excellent (though one suspects a 'paper' candidate), and Dr Louise Irvine for the Progressive Alliance/National Health Action Party was very good and very well supported.  Lib Dem candidate made a reasonable fist of things but didn't convince - and most of his supporters will vote PA - as will most Labour supporters.  Hunt will still win it by a good margin.

But good show at the hustings, with 400+ in attendance.
		
Click to expand...

We had Mo Mowlem for many years. My parents got in touch with her over problems with HMRC. She was fantastic!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2017)

Â£100,000 backhander for the Scottish Tories from an organisation that does not seem to exist.


https://opendemocracy.net/uk/brexit...ghegan/dark-money-driving-scottish-tory-surge


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Â£100,000 backhander for the Scottish Tories from an organisation that does not seem to exist.


https://opendemocracy.net/uk/brexit...ghegan/dark-money-driving-scottish-tory-surge

Click to expand...

You do realise that Open Democracy has its roots in the Labour Party and Charter 88? Bit like reading the Daily Mail, and believing it all factual...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You do realise that Open Democracy has its roots in the Labour Party and Charter 88? Bit like reading the Daily Mail, and believing it all factual...
		
Click to expand...

He does but prefers his Trolling version of the facts.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			You do realise that Open Democracy has its roots in the Labour Party and Charter 88? Bit like reading the Daily Mail, and believing it all factual...
		
Click to expand...

Look wider, the information is on many other blogs/sites.
I have never opened Open Democracy before so I have yet to make an opinion.............Daily Mail readers however


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look wider, the information is on many other blogs/sites.
I have never opened Open Democracy before so I have yet to make an opinion.............Daily Mail readers however

Click to expand...

  Or reading 'Wings" :rofl:


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look wider, the information is on many other blogs/sites.
I have never opened Open Democracy before so I have yet to make an opinion.............Daily Mail readers however

Click to expand...

Of which you are one. Strange that.


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Or reading 'Wings" :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

There's a reason he has to read it.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look wider, the information is on many other blogs/sites.
I have never opened Open Democracy before so I have yet to make an opinion.............Daily Mail readers however

Click to expand...

I did look wider. All bar one donation has already passed scrutiny, but OD still publish those with a rider to try and add weight but also add a disclaimer. It poor, poisonous reporting, and is a good example of what is wrong with reporting from all sides.

There's little good reporting out there that doesn't come with a bias, e.g. DM and Wings. Toilet paper at best.

Unlike some, I don't need the media to give me my opinion. Give me a balance sheet and a list of policies and I'll make my own mind up.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			There's a reason he has to read it.
		
Click to expand...

Small words and pictures to colour in?


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## Beezerk (Jun 7, 2017)

Bombs awaaaaay.
Vote posted last night, come one the Space Navies Party


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Or reading 'Wings" :rofl:
		
Click to expand...


https://wingsoverscotland.com/not-too-shabby/

Keep on plugging it guys, it is doing even better with all your 'endorsements'..:whoo:


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## Old Skier (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://wingsoverscotland.com/not-too-shabby/

Keep on plugging it guys, it is doing even better with all your 'endorsements'..:whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Endorse in the same way as the DM is endorsed by you.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2017)

Well it seems that hospitality paid off in the end...   

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/daily...er-at-downing-street-in-last-quarter-of-2016/


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 7, 2017)

Diane Abbott is apparently no longer the shadow Home Secretary; did she jump or was she pushed?


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Diane Abbott is apparently no longer the *shadow Home Secretary*; did she jump or was she pushed?
		
Click to expand...

You've got the words in the wrong order. She's JC's *secretary* at *Home* in the *shadows*


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just listened to corbyns speech at a rally, said his manifesto would not affect 97% of the population. So the top 3% are paying for all his spending ?

Really.......


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2017)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40178571

Good news.
Big uptake by younger voters


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40178571

Good news.
Big uptake by younger voters
		
Click to expand...

Where does it say they are younger voters?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 7, 2017)

spongebob59 said:



			Just listened to corbyns speech at a rally, said his manifesto would not affect 97% of the population. So the top 3% are paying for all his spending ?

Really.......
		
Click to expand...

Apart from all those not in the top 3% that are running their own businesses and will see their corporation tax rise by at least 7%


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## spongebob59 (Jun 7, 2017)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154841158040787&id=7519460786&__tn__=C


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Where does it say they are younger voters?
		
Click to expand...

On the BBC news......must be right then


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On the BBC news......must be right then

Click to expand...

Must be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2017)

Last 10 minutes of campaigning, when you hear about Labour and the budget defecit try and remember this:

1979-1997 
The Tories increased the defecit by 50%
The structural defecit by 29%
And borrowed 3.3% per year.

But it's all Labours fault.

Remember, you reap what you sow.


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## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Last 10 minutes of campaigning, when you hear about Labour and the budget defecit try and remember this:

1979-1997 
The Tories increased the defecit by 50%
The structural defecit by 29%
And borrowed 3.3% per year.

But it's all Labours fault.

Remember, you reap what you sow.
		
Click to expand...

What has 20 years ago got to do with today?

Don't forget, England won the World Cup in 1966.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 8, 2017)

Closing all political threads while polling stations are open
Go Vote &#128077;


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

Exit poll very similar to last time, it's gonna be a long night.


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## guest100718 (Jun 8, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Exit poll very similar to last time, it's gonna be a long night.
		
Click to expand...

last time it predicted a tory majority


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			last time it predicted a tory majority
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/election-2015-exit-polls


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## guest100718 (Jun 8, 2017)

ger147 said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/election-2015-exit-polls

Click to expand...

the guardian is banned in my house . liberal claptrap


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## Beezerk (Jun 8, 2017)

Mp's talking usual bollox straight away on bbc1, thank god for American Dad on Fox.


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			the guardian is banned in my house . liberal claptrap
		
Click to expand...

It was the same Curtice exit poll last time and predicted a hung parliament...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-conservatives-largest-party-hung-parliament


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			But in 2015 the 10pm announcement on tv gave a Tory majority, which was correct.
		
Click to expand...

I was conparing the last exit poll to the current exit poll, and they are both very similar.

I never mentioned the TV...


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## guest100718 (Jun 8, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I was conparing the last exit poll to the current exit poll, and they are both very similar.

I never mentioned the TV...
		
Click to expand...

yes that's what was talking about too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 8, 2017)

Imagine how embarrassing and pathetic for our nation it would be if it was a hung parliament :rofl:


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			yes that's what was talking about too.
		
Click to expand...

316 for the Tories in the 2015 exit poll, 314 this time. Labour much stronger this time.

This could be very close.


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## User62651 (Jun 8, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			yes that's what was talking about too.
		
Click to expand...

ok but surely safe to say there's no landslide, just whether she can get over the line of a small majority. Even if she does get a small majority she's finished isn't she?

Gone awfully quiet in here.


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## ger147 (Jun 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			ok but surely safe to say there's no landslide, just whether she can get over the line of a small majority. Even if she does get a small majority she's finished isn't she?
		
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Deffo doesn't look like a landslide is possible, narrow majority looking like best case scenario for the Tories.

Not sure the Tories will try and dump her immediately if she does win a small majority but she won't be there long term.

If she doesn't win a majority I can't see how she can survive.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2017)

I still think the Tories will get a majority. Exit poll had my constituency turning from conservative to labour which I just don't buy. Would love to be wrong but I still think the Tories will do it with a bit to spare.


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## fundy (Jun 8, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine how embarrassing and pathetic for our nation it would be if it was a hung parliament :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

seems a fair assessment of a split nation, asked to vote between 2 parties wider apart than theyve been for many a year, with 2 leaders that have a habit of alienating people and no decent alternative

very very sad state of affairs, still a decent chance tories get a tiny overall majority as per before and not sure thats any better really

Boris Johnson currently 6/1 to be PM after the election sums up just how bad it is!!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2017)

Even if the tories get a majority May's reputation in the party will be tarnished and I can see her going either under her own volition or at the hands of a very quick takeover bid


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2017)

I reckon the old UKIP voters will swing it for the Tories.


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## IanM (Jun 8, 2017)

If Corbyn and Crankie hold the balance of power I guess next years trip to Turnberry will be cancelled.....


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 8, 2017)

What's happened in Sco? If SNP lose 22 as predicted, that's quite significant. Haven't seen the details, have the seats turned red?


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## Dellboy (Jun 8, 2017)

Tories will still be the largest party and will form the next government, Brexit will go ahead but could get messy with Labour and SNP blocking. 

May will stay on, but in my opinion should go and parliament will slowly grind to a halt if not careful.


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## User62651 (Jun 8, 2017)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			What's happened in Sco? If SNP lose 22 as predicted, that's quite significant. Haven't seen the details, have the seats turned red?
		
Click to expand...

Pundits up here thinking mainly blue so possibly a good night for Davidson but terrible for May, odd juxtaposition there. Voting is still all about the Union for many here, more than Brexit I think, Sturgeons call for Indy2 is looking like a bad call presently. 2015 was a one-off anti Cameron tirade up here and also kicking Labour for joining with Tories in the Better Together campaign, Indy2 was off the agenda then (already decided) so 56 of 59 seats painted a false picture of support for the real SNP I think rather than the left wing replacement of Scottish Labour SNP. From 8 MPs in 2010 to 32 in 2017 will be spun as good by SNP. Indyref2 will be shelved though.

Need to wait and see but politics gets very interesting when shock polls and results happen.

Squeaky bum time for many - Salmond, Robertson, Rudd to name a few.


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## craigstardis1976 (Jun 8, 2017)

I hope Labour win and am enjoying Dimbleby on BBC here in Arizona.


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## User62651 (Jun 8, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Pundits up here thinking mainly blue so possibly a good night for Davidson but terrible for May, odd juxtaposition there. Voting is still all about the Union for many here, more than Brexit I think, Sturgeons call for Indy2 is looking like a bad call presently. 2015 was a one-off anti Cameron tirade up here and also kicking Labour for joining with Tories in the Better Together campaign, Indy2 was off the agenda then (already decided) so 56 of 59 seats painted a false picture of support for the real SNP I think rather than the left wing replacement of Scottish Labour SNP. From 8 MPs in 2010 to 32 in 2017 will be spun as good by SNP. Indyref2 will be shelved though.

Need to wait and see but politics gets very interesting when shock polls and results happen.

Squeaky bum time for many - Salmond, Robertson, Rudd to name a few.

Click to expand...

edit: Gains in Scotland for Tories might make the difference in Tories getting an overall UK majority. Who'd have thunk it?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2017)

Am off to bed now. Predict a Tory majority of 47 seats, with most UKIP voters switching to the Tories and not to Labour as they had hoped. 

Also exit polls don't include postal voting which will be strongly in favour of the Tories.


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## IainP (Jun 9, 2017)

Have just read a poll that predicts the pollsters are going to receive a kicking


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine how embarrassing and pathetic for our nation it would be if it was a hung parliament :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

And you think that would be funny!   What part of democracy do you find embarrassing and pathetic?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			And you think that would be funny!   What part of democracy do you find embarrassing and pathetic?
		
Click to expand...

Today on the forum it's been bliss - the reason why because all the political threads were shut so you had no where to post , you appear to believe that you must challenge every single post that you don't like and always in a forceful arrogant way , you have turned every single political thread on here into an embarrassment but then it just mirrors the political arena in the country right now. 

Vote after vote is ripping the country right down the middle and there are a certain bunch of people that have their heads so far up there own backside they only see their own opinion and just dismiss anyone else. You are a perfect symbol of the current government and you can quite clearly see people have had enough of it and I have my fingers crossed that the Tories don't get their majority.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Interesting to see how' strong and stable' the Tories will be over the next few days.


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## Dellboy (Jun 9, 2017)

Another GE in Sept / Oct coming up, unless something special happens in the next few hours


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine how embarrassing and pathetic for our nation it would be if it was a hung parliament :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Or a fantastic result for democray, nice slur on your fellow countrymen.
Our nation didn't call the GE, a political party did, your bitterness is misdirected.
Glad you find it funny!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Or a fantastic result for democray, nice slur on your fellow countrymen.
Our nation didn't call the GE, a political party did, your bitterness is misdirected.
Glad you find it funny!
		
Click to expand...

I think he was being sarcastic mate. Well that's how I read it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Great to see the collapse of the far far far right BNP right vote, the severe reduction in the far far right UKIP vote and the loses for the far right Tory vote. IMHO.

The Daily Mail will be livid.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Looking like the 18-24 year olds can be arsed to vote after all. Great that they have finally realised they need to have a say in the future of their country. World have been nice if they would have done that last year, but promising for the future anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Or a fantastic result for democray, nice slur on your fellow countrymen.
Our nation didn't call the GE, a political party did, your bitterness is misdirected.
Glad you find it funny!
		
Click to expand...

I may of agreed until I saw his reply to SR!
Has a dig at him about insults! Holier than thou!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			What has 20 years ago got to do with today?

Don't forget, England won the World Cup in 1966.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry mate, I didn't realise we could only go back that far for certain areas


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think he was being sarcastic mate. Well that's how I read it.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it was sarcastic , some are always on the look out to create disharmony


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of course it was sarcastic , some are always on the look out to create disharmony
		
Click to expand...

Never you though! :rofl:


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2017)

I think Alister Campbell summed it up well.
Labour haven't won, the Tories have lost
May proved to be unpopular but, I think,  many that voted Labour did so to vote against May rather than for Corbyn.
Now we have a hung Parliament and even more uncertainty than we had last week......
Let's do it all again in October.......&#128547;


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## Fish (Jun 9, 2017)

So who takes over from May, Ruth Davies, or when she talks about stability due to Brexit (oh dear I said that word) talks starting in 11 days, is  she holding fast, or at least hopes to until/or pushed?


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## Fish (Jun 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			I think Alister Campbell summed it up well.
Labour haven't won, the Tories have lost
May proved to be unpopular but, I think,  many that voted Labour did so to vote against May rather than for Corbyn.
Now we have a hung Parliament and even more uncertainty than we had last week......
Let's do it all again in October.......&#128547;
		
Click to expand...

I said as much in another thread earlier. 

What is it about Brighton Pavilion, amazing numbers for the Greens.


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2017)

Fish said:



			I said as much in another thread earlier. 

What is it about Brighton Pavilion, amazing numbers for the Greens.
		
Click to expand...

They're all Hippies down there Robin..&#128523;&#128514;&#128525;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			I think Alister Campbell summed it up well.
Labour haven't won, the Tories have lost
May proved to be unpopular but, I think,  many that voted Labour did so to vote against May rather than for Corbyn.
Now we have a hung Parliament and even more uncertainty than we had last week......
Let's do it all again in October.......&#128547;
		
Click to expand...

Exactly what happened to Labour in 2010, people in this Country deserve more credit at times and get fed up of being treated by idiots by politicians.


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## Fish (Jun 9, 2017)

Imurg said:



			They're all Hippies down there Robin..&#128523;&#128514;&#128525;
		
Click to expand...

There's must be a lot of loved trees and insecure lampposts &#128540;


----------



## gregbwfc (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Exactly what happened to Labour in 2010, people in this Country deserve more credit at times and get fed up of being treated by idiots by politicians.
		
Click to expand...

This with bells on mate, have a +1.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Think the big winner is the exit poll. Just about spot on.


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2017)

What a mess


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Slab said:



			What a mess 

Click to expand...

Short term yes. But long term for the good of society I'd argue it's a good thing.


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## Dellboy (Jun 9, 2017)

Not a good night for May, Tories still in charge for now and will push on until the next GE in the autumn,on the plus side the SNP took a good kicking.


----------



## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Short term yes. But long term for the good of society I'd argue it's a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. 

Brexit aside, internally the UK needs to rebalance away from big business govt but without far left tendencies. A softer Labour and a softer Tory would be wonderful. Both parties will have to head towards the centre ground if they are to achieve a working majority next time around.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

Had to turn the telly up at one point to hear it over the sound of Europe pissing themselves! :rofl:


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## Slab (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Short term yes. But long term for the good of society I'd argue it's a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Only if you have the caliber of politician and the desired manifesto to fix it, I don't think there's either


The UK population is split in half over its politics and direction
The UK population is split in half over its membership of the EU
Scotlands population is split in half over its membership of the UK

_(& no, a few percentile either way does not make a meaningful majority on any of the above)_

The politicians have failed again and again to provide what society wants, and fear alone (of the other side getting their way) prevents everyone just staying at home in order to get that particular message across. Such that politicians actually think a vote 'for' them is actually a vote for their policy rather than a vote to prevent someone else's policy

All hail the Divided Kingdom!


----------



## Chisteve (Jun 9, 2017)

I'm not surprised this morning after brexit - instability - just what we dont want 

Instability is what we are going to have for some time 

Grey vote for brexit young vote for Labour


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Sky reporting TM not going to resign, I reckon we'll see another u-turn.


----------



## gmhubble (Jun 9, 2017)

Absolutely spot on



Chisteve said:



			I'm not surprised this morning after brexit - instability - just what we dont want 

Instability is what we are going to have for some time 

Grey vote for brexit young vote for Labour
		
Click to expand...


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## guest100718 (Jun 9, 2017)

Ian Paisley for deputy PM....


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2017)

So what cost the Tories the overriding majority to take us stronger when negotiating Brexit. Her words.

The Brexit vote was split before the GE, what made her think that would change.

Especially when she would not take part in live discussions with other party leaders.

Think the latest terrorist attacks cost her, The fact as Home Secretary she cut policing levels have hurt her and the party.


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## 2blue (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Short term yes. But long term for the good of society I'd argue it's a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Great that the young of Britain are moved to action...  there is hope after all.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

2blue said:



			Great that the young of Britain are moved to action...  there is hope after all.
		
Click to expand...

:thup: :thup: 2 big thumbs up from me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Do you think UK Labour will be regretting Scottish Labour telling their Scottish supporters to vote Tory in seats that Labour stood no chance of winning.


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## IainP (Jun 9, 2017)

I am not a big politics follower (probably been exposed to more of it lately through the golf forum!)
Thought would look back over the last few.

Totally appreciate that May and co made a major tactical blunder here, but here you go.


2005

L 355 seats	35.2% of pop vote
C 198 seats


2010

C 306 seats        36.1% of pop vote
L 258 seats


2015

C 330 seats	36.9% of pop vote
L 232


2017 (as of now)

C 317 seats       42.4% of pop vote
L 261 seats


Not sure what this is saying other than maybe we need to reform the way we do elections (and that won't happen). Or as some others said, maybe we need a credible centre ground option.

Ho hum, interesting times yet again.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

IainP said:



			I am not a big politics follower (probably been exposed to more of it lately through the golf forum!)
Thought would look back over the last few.

Totally appreciate that May and co made a major tactical blunder here, but here you go.


2005

L 355 seats	35.2% of pop vote
C 198 seats


2010

C 306 seats        36.1% of pop vote
L 258 seats


2015

C 330 seats	36.9% of pop vote
L 232


2017 (as of now)

C 317 seats       42.4% of pop vote
L 261 seats


Not sure what this is saying other than maybe we need to reform the way we do elections (and that won't happen). Or as some others said, maybe we need a credible centre ground option.

Ho hum, interesting times yet again.
		
Click to expand...

Westminster needs root and branch reform......it is stuck in a 1950's time lock.


----------



## chrisd (Jun 9, 2017)

Oh no!!!!!

I've just heard that Mrs May is going to the Palace at 12.30 - we don't need a strong and stable team, we need a centre back, goalkeeper and central midfielder. Oh Big Sam please don't leave!


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Oh no!!!!!

I've just heard that Mrs May is going to the Palace at 12.30 - we don't need a strong and stable team, we need a centre back, goalkeeper and central midfielder. Oh Big Sam please don't leave!
		
Click to expand...

Leave man city outta this, that comment should be in the were off thread &#128513;


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Leave man city outta this, that comment should be in the were off thread &#62977;
		
Click to expand...

Hey, don't know why you're upset, you now have a Tory for the 1st time ever, the Meale is gone


----------



## Kellfire (Jun 9, 2017)

The DUP. Wow. What have the electorate done?!


----------



## jp5 (Jun 9, 2017)

Honestly we must look a complete shambles to Brussels.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			The DUP. Wow. What have the electorate done?! 

Click to expand...

Ian Paisley Deputy PM..... good choice, he is definitely strong and staunch.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jun 9, 2017)

The Irony that May "campaigned" for a strong and stable government 

Isnt that what you just had 2 months ago Mrs May? no you have 12 less MPs (atm one left to declare) 29 more Labour MPs to vote down changes and your having to share power with someone

what a great decision that was lol


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ian Paisley Deputy PM..... good choice, he is definitely strong and staunch.

Click to expand...

Must admit I know next to nothing about the DUP, but I expect I will soon.  In the mean time I will use my ever trusted news source http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...phobes-who-think-pope-is-satan-20170609129202  Say it isn't so.....


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2017)

The R5 political guy tried to go on their website this morning to hone up about them. Their site had crashed and was down. Seems lots of others wanted to find out more.


----------



## 3offTheTee (Jun 9, 2017)

The Venky's Out candidate in Blackburn received more votes than The Liberal Democrat but was not elected!


----------



## User62651 (Jun 9, 2017)

IainP said:



			I am not a big politics follower (probably been exposed to more of it lately through the golf forum!)
Thought would look back over the last few.

Totally appreciate that May and co made a major tactical blunder here, but here you go.


2005

L 355 seats	35.2% of pop vote
C 198 seats


2010

C 306 seats        36.1% of pop vote
L 258 seats


2015

C 330 seats	36.9% of pop vote
L 232


2017 (as of now)

C 317 seats       42.4% of pop vote
L 261 seats


Not sure what this is saying other than maybe we need to reform the way we do elections (and that won't happen). Or as some others said, maybe we need a credible centre ground option.

Ho hum, interesting times yet again.
		
Click to expand...

Think you need to show a % vote share for the losing side too to show any trends because Labour got 40% yesterday as it went more 2 party than ever yesterday.
For Corbyn to take 40% is some achievement for a man ridiculed on all sides not so long ago. If the Tory/DUP thing is approved by Lizzie, where does it leave Corbyn? Out of power for at least 5 years and well into his 70s by 2022, will he carry on?
Expect Farage to try and lead UKIP again as he'll be fearful of Govt backtracking on Brexit as DUP are pro single market etc.

Tories taking 13 seats in Scotland is a brilliant result for them, May should be thanking Davidson hugely for that as without those 13 she really would be in big trouble. Dont think many are genuinely Tory areas though, just a pro-Unionist tactical vote. Sturgeon's position is looking very weakened despite winning most seats in Scotland. Major rethink needed there.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https://wingsoverscotland.com/

It has started already:angry:

Scroll down for Nigel Dodds statement on insistence that no special deals will be done for NI on Brexit. Used as a bargaining chip for supporting the Weak and Wobblies.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Think you need to show a % vote share for the losing side too to show any trends because Labour got 40% yesterday as it went more 2 party than ever yesterday.
For Corbyn to take 40% is some achievement for a man ridiculed on all sides not so long ago. If the Tory/DUP thing is approved by Lizzie, where does it leave Corbyn? Out of power for at least 5 years and well into his 70s by 2022, will he carry on?
		
Click to expand...

You can't really see the Tories / DUP lasting 5 years can you? I don't see them lasting until Autumn. 

The silly thing is if the Tories were less nasty, less personal then they may be able to govern day by day by consensus. They just insist on making enemies however so most of the other parties simply refuse to work with them, even if the policy is a reasonable one. It is a shame we don't have less confrontational politics.


----------



## jp5 (Jun 9, 2017)

Can't see many of the liberal Tories being too happy with working with the stone-age DUP.

Another election by the end of the year?!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Posted this on 18th April when she announced it and stand by every word!

Re: Urgent Statement from PM today

Only reason for this is for Tory party interests.
She has a majority in Parliament.
The majority have voted for Brexit.
All now on hold while we go through a GE.
Everyone expects theTory majority to increase, just like we expected a no brexit vote and Trump to lose.

Just what if? what if we get a hung Parliament or a reduce minority.

Her announcement blamed everyone else for this call for a GE, but again, she has a mandate and a majority now and we don't need further uncertainty. It's all on her shoulders.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

DUP - Anti-abortion, Anti-gay marriage and don't believe in climate change, amongst others, and I thought people said Corbyn was taking us back to the 70's


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2017)

Just seen a video clip of the winner of Mansfields MP being  announced on the BBC site. That is typical Mansfield. &#128563;


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## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2017)

Let's take some positives out of this. Good turn out. Wee one from across the boarder to a kicking and one or two in her party are starting to make noises against her. Big wee one has disappeared from Parliament. Our wings blogger may have find another subject to blogging about. LP isn't happy because the political threads ignore his sanctimonious rubbish. And it's 30Â° in Greece and someone has wifi.


----------



## gmhubble (Jun 9, 2017)

Corbyn: "Theresa May lost and should resign."
Interviewer: "But you didn't win either. Maybe you should resign?"
Corbyn: [silence, blinking]


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)




----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			DUP - Anti-abortion, Anti-gay marriage and don't believe in climate change, amongst others, and I thought people said Corbyn was taking us back to the 70's
		
Click to expand...

You forget endorsed by the UVF and UDA.


----------



## craigstardis1976 (Jun 9, 2017)

On a slightly different note, I would like to say how much I enjoyed David Dimbleby as anchor of the BBC coverage. Guy is a national treasure and puts any political host in the USA to shame! As for Theresa May, incompetent fool, in need of putting out of our misery...


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			You forget endorsed by the UVF and UDA.
		
Click to expand...

lets not go down that route please


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen a video clip of the winner of Mansfields MP being  announced on the BBC site. *That is typical Mansfield*. &#63027;
		
Click to expand...

Was there a fight???


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Let's take some positives out of this. Good turn out. Wee one from across the boarder to a kicking and one or two in her party are starting to make noises against her. Big wee one has disappeared from Parliament. Our wings blogger may have find another subject to blogging about. LP isn't happy because the political threads ignore his sanctimonious rubbish. And it's 30Â° in Greece and someone has wifi.
		
Click to expand...

I think you may have missed a few more positives to be honest...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			lets not go down that route please
		
Click to expand...

Fair point. As before you know it we will be down to the level of the biggest selling newspapers in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4578822/Proof-Corbyn-unfit-rule.html


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			lets not go down that route please
		
Click to expand...

Why not?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 9, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking like the 18-24 year olds can be arsed to vote after all. Great that they have finally realised they need to have a say in the future of their country. World have been nice if they would have done that last year, but promising for the future anyway.
		
Click to expand...




2blue said:



			Great that the young of Britain are moved to action...  there is hope after all.
		
Click to expand...

Is it?  According to the great & the good, had "the young" bothered to vote first time then there wouldn't be a Brexit.  But now that there is and we can't go back (allegedly), they've apparently turned out in droves to give us a hung Parliament which is just what we need when we're trying to sort out a deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Why not?
		
Click to expand...

Agreed - why not?

The DUP had the support of organisations that, to put it mildly, were not overly critical of Ulster Unionist paramilitary groups.  If it's OK to go on and on about Corbyn and his *historical* links with Irish Republicans then it is very important to highlight the mob that May and the Tories are going to be in bed with.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is it?  According to the great & the good, had "the young" bothered to vote first time then there wouldn't be a Brexit.  But now that there is and we can't go back (allegedly), they've apparently turned out in droves to give us a hung Parliament which is just what we need when we're trying to sort out a deal.  

Click to expand...

Well just for starters The Supreme Leader and her Brexiteers shouldn't have been proposing to take the UK down a clean cut separation from the EU knowing full well that the surveys showed that younger voters were pro-EU; more 'socialist' minded, and more likely to vote Labour if they were sufficiently energised.  And so it came to pass.

And so the only person responsible for the hung parliament and the mess we ae now in with Brexit negotiations looming is Theresa Maybot and her Cookie Crew.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is it?  According to the great & the good, had "the young" bothered to vote first time then there wouldn't be a Brexit.  But now that there is and we can't go back (allegedly), they've apparently turned out in droves to give us a hung Parliament which is just what we need when we're trying to sort out a deal.  

Click to expand...

I know, young people are shocking, not voting as they are instructed by the reanimated corpse of Mrs Thatcher and The Daily Mail, taking an interest in their future, voting for hope instead of negative campaigning.  Next they will be saying they want to wear jeans to play golf in, where will it all end??? They should just have shut up and left it to the coffin dodgers, know your place young people!!!


----------



## Old Skier (Jun 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed - why not?

The DUP had the support of organisations that, to put it mildly, were not overly critical of Ulster Unionist paramilitary groups.  If it's OK to go on and on about Corbyn and his *historical* links with Irish Republicans then it is very important to highlight the mob that May and the Tories are going to be in bed with.
		
Click to expand...

And this from the guy who argued it was all in the past and in the name of peace and had no bearing on present day. 

Just a bit selective.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2017)

So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

:clap: :clap:


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

Well played sir.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

Well said sir.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

craigstardis1976 said:



			On a slightly different note, I would like to say how much I enjoyed David Dimbleby as anchor of the BBC coverage. Guy is a national treasure and puts any political host in the USA to shame! As for Theresa May, incompetent fool, in need of putting out of our misery...
		
Click to expand...

I can't stand the ex Bullingham Boy but, fair play, he was good last night.
I though Laura Kuenssburg was brilliant.

May is an embarrassment to the UK.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

The silence from a number of normal posters is deafening :rofl:


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The silence from a number of normal posters is deafening :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

They are out practicing their flutes.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 9, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They are out practicing their flutes. 

Click to expand...

We know there about, they are posting on other threads


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## Stuart_C (Jun 9, 2017)

Theresa May has just announced an extra bank holiday this year.




12th July


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The silence from a number of normal posters is deafening :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Weird isn't it. They normally have do much to say on these political threads...


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## chippa1909 (Jun 9, 2017)

Scottish Tories are reportedly very unhappy with association with the DUP. 
Good on Davidson if that's the case.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Scottish Tories are reportedly very unhappy with association with the DUP. 
Good on Davidson if that's the case.
		
Click to expand...

Having an 'arrangement' with the likes of the DUP would seem quite reasonable if you knew little of the background to the party and it's supporters.  Davidson, being of the LGBT community and knowing the impact of what a religious divide does, is clearly more sensitive to the issues with the DUP than May.  Not that difficult though it appears, to be more sensitive than May.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The silence from a number of normal posters is deafening :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Right, back now.  Golf today and shot 2 under, a baby sitting session with the Grandson.  You seem to be missing me so lets make a start!

So what have people to be rejoicing about:  The Snowflakes will still be paying tuition fees while ranting on facebook and taking selfies rather than hard working people who didn't get the chance of going to university subsidising them. Businesses will be spared tax increases that will prevent them reinvesting and creating new jobs. Hard working successful people will not need to leave the country due the sour-grape tax.  UK households will not be shelling out an additional Â£2500 in tax. There will be a finger on the nuclear button if we need it.  We will not have the trade unions pulling the strings of a puppet PM.  Our PM will not be cozening up to terrorist groups.  We will not have to face the nightmare scenario of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Thornberry in control.  The NHS will continue to get increased funding year on year.  We will not be borrowing at a level that will bankrupt the country and have our credit rating reduced to a trash level.  How far would you like me to go?

Don't fret, Sorry you have been missing me, I won't be silent and:   I'm Back :whoo:


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Right, back now.  Golf today and shot 2 under, a baby sitting session with the Grandson.  You seem to be missing me so lets make a start!

So what have people to be rejoicing about:  The Snowflakes will still be paying tuition fees while ranting on facebook and taking selfies rather than hard working people who didn't get the chance of going to university subsidising them. Businesses will be spared tax increases that will prevent them reinvesting and creating new jobs. Hard working successful people will not need to leave the country due the sour-grape tax.  UK households will not be shelling out an additional Â£2500 in tax. There will be a finger on the nuclear button if we need it.  We will not have the trade unions pulling the strings of a puppet PM.  Our PM will not be cozening up to terrorist groups.  We will not have to face the nightmare scenario of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Thornberry in control.  The NHS will continue to get increased funding year on year.  We will not be borrowing at a level that will bankrupt the country and have our credit rating reduced to a trash level.  How far would you like me to go?

Don't fret, Sorry you have been missing me, I won't be silent and:   I'm Back :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

Snowflakes?

Interesting way to prove your perceived superiority I suppose. 

Now then, about the DUP, any of their views you want to expand on?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Snowflakes?

*Interesting way to prove your perceived superiority I suppose. 
*
Now then, about the DUP, any of their views you want to expand on?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, interesting is what I aimed for, superiority is your call but thanks anyway.

DUP!  I guess any port in a storm so they will do for a while.   Eventually Corbyn will be seen for what he is and the Snowflakes will return to their beds and selfies.  

How about Jeremy suggesting he is ready to lead the country with around 60 less seats than the Tories, what type of deals do you think he is prepared to do?   Oh! wait a minute, Hezbollah don't have any seats so he may be struggling.

Still missing me


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks, interesting is what I aimed for, superiority is your call but thanks anyway.

DUP!  I guess any port in a storm so they will do for a while.   Eventually Corbyn will be seen for what he is and the Snowflakes will return to their beds and selfies.  

How about Jeremy suggesting he is ready to lead the country with around 60 less seats than the Tories, what type of deals do you think he is prepared to do?   Oh! wait a minute, Hezbollah don't have any seats so he may be struggling.

Still missing me 

Click to expand...

If you start making sense then at least you'd make it interesting I suppose. 

You do realise that your "Corbin = Terrrorist sympathiser" cliche doesn't work anymore don't you? As soon as May contacted the DUP then it lost all credibility. So let's just be grown up and leave it aside. 

Now then, what's your take on May's decision to hold a snap election? Are you still confident that she's the "strong and stable" leadership that we need?


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			If you start making sense then at least you'd make it interesting I suppose. 

You do realise that your "Corbin = Terrrorist sympathiser" cliche doesn't work anymore don't you? As soon as May contacted the DUP then it lost all credibility. So let's just be grown up and leave it aside. 

Now then, what's your take on May's decision to hold a snap election? Are you still confident that she's the "strong and stable" leadership that we need?
		
Click to expand...

I can only put it this way:

[SIZE=+1]If you can make one heap of all your winnings 
 And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
 And lose, and start again at your beginnings
 And never breathe a word about your loss;

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
 And - which is more - you'll be a Man/Woman, my Son/Daughter![/SIZE]

[/SIZE]


----------



## User62651 (Jun 9, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only put it this way:

[SIZE=+1]If you can make one heap of all your winnings 
 And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
 And lose, and start again at your beginnings
 And never breathe a word about your loss;

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
 And - which is more - you'll be a Man/Woman, my Son/Daughter![/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

I think you need to get off to bed.


----------



## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only put it this way:

[SIZE=+1]If you can make one heap of all your winnings 
 And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
 And lose, and start again at your beginnings
 And never breathe a word about your loss;

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
 And - which is more - you'll be a Man/Woman, my Son/Daughter![/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Cool. So we agree that the Tories gambled with our kids (and grandkids) futures and lost. Common ground at last :thup:


----------



## chippa1909 (Jun 10, 2017)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09...heresa/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Hahahahaha.
Weaker and wobblier by the second.


----------



## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I think you need to get off to bed.
		
Click to expand...

I think he's waiting for it to dry out.


----------



## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, the Conservatives are looking to go into coalition with a Party that is strongly against abortion, gay marriage and the theory of evolution. Oh, and it has strong links to loyalist paramilitary groups. Based on some past posts on this forum then I'd expect a strong reaction on this forum should the coalition go ahead. Unless the forum is full of hypocrites obviously 

Click to expand...

I like that post. A lot!!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Right, back now.  Golf today and shot 2 under, a baby sitting session with the Grandson.  You seem to be missing me so lets make a start!

So what have people to be rejoicing about:  The Snowflakes will still be paying tuition fees while ranting on facebook and taking selfies rather than hard working people who didn't get the chance of going to university subsidising them. Businesses will be spared tax increases that will prevent them reinvesting and creating new jobs. Hard working successful people will not need to leave the country due the sour-grape tax.  UK households will not be shelling out an additional Â£2500 in tax. There will be a finger on the nuclear button if we need it.  We will not have the trade unions pulling the strings of a puppet PM.  Our PM will not be cozening up to terrorist groups.  We will not have to face the nightmare scenario of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Thornberry in control.  The NHS will continue to get increased funding year on year.  We will not be borrowing at a level that will bankrupt the country and have our credit rating reduced to a trash level.  How far would you like me to go?

Don't fret, Sorry you have been missing me, I won't be silent and:   I'm Back :whoo:
		
Click to expand...

I'll abstain until you either stop the insults (Snowflake) or decide to be sensible, otherwise, no point. :thup:


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2017)

When a comedian tours they often do small gigs where they try out their material. Gags that don't hit home or get a reaction are dropped, New ones brought in. 

Strong and stable, coalition of chaos, Corbyn = Hezbollah, none of them worked, none of them stuck with people. The key is to realise this, change your approach and move on. If you keep churning out the same failing lines then they just wash over people and even start to have an opposite impact.


----------



## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When a comedian tours they often do small gigs where they try out their material. Gags that don't hit home or get a reaction are dropped, New ones brought in. 

Strong and stable, coalition of chaos, Corbyn = Hezbollah, none of them worked, none of them stuck with people. The key is to realise this, change your approach and move on. If you keep churning out the same failing lines then they just wash over people and even start to have an opposite impact.
		
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people got fed up being spoken down to and being treated as if they're stupid.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When a comedian tours they often do small gigs where they try out their material. Gags that don't hit home or get a reaction are dropped, New ones brought in. 

*Strong and stable, coalition of chaos, Corbyn = Hezbollah, none of them worked, none of them stuck with people. *The key is to realise this, change your approach and move on. If you keep churning out the same failing lines then they just wash over people and even start to have an opposite impact.
		
Click to expand...

I think they did work in a way, but thankfully just for an increasingly diminishing section of the population. But as can be seen on this forum, there's plenty of them all around so let's not get too complacent. I'm sure the Daily Bigot and their fellow conservative propaganda leaflets will still be churning the same stuff out.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2017)

richy said:



			I think a lot of people got fed up being spoken down to and being treated as if they're stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Especially the snowflake students at university who are being subsidised by every single hard working person that didn't go. Apparently. 

_Would you like vinegar with that chip on your shoulder sir? 

No thank you, I'll just let it fester and express itself with a series of increasingly incoherent rants on a golf forum. 

No worries sir, enjoy your meal. _


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09...heresa/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Hahahahaha.
Weaker and wobblier by the second.
		
Click to expand...

OOoo our Fish won't be liking her now:whoo:

Only took the ONE day for the nasty party to start arguing with itself:lol:


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

If anyone is wondering what the issue with "snowflake" is, have a google and see who and how it was used by the right wing/nazis,


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only put it this way:

[SIZE=+1]If you can make one heap of all your winnings 
 And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
 And lose, and start again at your beginnings
 And never breathe a word about your loss;

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
 And - which is more - you'll be a Man/Woman, my Son/Daughter![/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

What on earth is that rubbish supposed to mean in the context of a GE.
Are you saying you want a idiotic gambler to be our leader.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

Another great British invention...seemingly:lol:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...etch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If anyone is wondering what the issue with "snowflake" is, have a google and see who and how it was used by the right wing/nazis,
		
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I like the way the generation labelled as snowflakes are responding. There's been some very articulated responses. They still have the idealism of the young, without the cynicism of some of the older generations. And more importantly they are willing to defend a society for all, not the few. 

its a reminder to be ambitious for society, and a big thank you to them for championing it. Does it fit with running the country as a hard nosed business? The country's doesn't have to be run that way. 

The more time I spend in Spain, the more I realise that society should always come first. You can be struggling to sort the loose change in your pocket and someone else in the queue will divvy up for you. Kids walking back from school will say hola. We've become too selfish.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I like the way the generation labelled as snowflakes are responding. There's been some very articulated responses. They still have the idealism of the young, without the cynicism of some of the older generations. And more importantly they are willing to defend a society for all, not the few. 

its a reminder to be ambitious for society, and a big thank you to them for championing it. Does it fit with running the country as a hard nosed business? The country's doesn't have to be run that way. 

The more time I spend in Spain, the more I realise that society should always come first. You can be struggling to sort the loose change in your pocket and someone else in the queue will divvy up for you. Kids walking back from school will say hola. We've become too selfish.
		
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Totally agree Brian, we laughed at their moaning after the last GE and Brexit, now we take the p!ss because they turned up and lost.

TM showed no grace or humility yesterday after winning the most seats, but how anyone can rejoice or be happy with the situation is beyond me.

This is the worst case scenario and until our elected leaders starting trying to build bridges and work closer together these divisions are only going to widen.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I like the way the generation labelled as snowflakes are responding. There's been some very articulated responses. They still have the idealism of the young, without the cynicism of some of the older generations. And more importantly they are willing to defend a society for all, not the few. 

its a reminder to be ambitious for society, and a big thank you to them for championing it. Does it fit with running the country as a hard nosed business? The country's doesn't have to be run that way. 

The more time I spend in Spain, the more I realise that society should always come first. You can be struggling to sort the loose change in your pocket and someone else in the queue will divvy up for you. Kids walking back from school will say hola. We've become too selfish.
		
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Great post. A country has to be about more than just its economy.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Great post. A country has to be about more than just its economy.
		
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There's always selfies and ripped knees to take into account.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What on earth is that rubbish supposed to mean in the context of a GE.
Are you saying you want a idiotic gambler to be our leader.
		
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Bit deep for you then Doom, how do you manage with Rabbie Burns, not very well I imagine.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			I think you need to get off to bed.
		
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Was I keeping you up.  Shame on me!


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			There's always selfies and ripped knees to take into account.
		
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In all seriousness, your posts are becoming a bit incoherent and shambolic. Do you have a genuine point to make?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Cool. So we agree that the Tories gambled with our kids (and grandkids) futures and lost. Common ground at last :thup:
		
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Hang on, I'm the one with the out of touch views. Please stop joining in.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

richy said:



			I think he's waiting for it to dry out.
		
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That's never going to happen with you, is it?  Wet as a Morcambe Saturday! :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			In all seriousness, your posts are becoming a bit incoherent and shambolic. Do you have a genuine point to make?
		
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Yes.  I'm back, the yogurt knitters seemed to think I was in hiding.  :thup:


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes.  I'm back, the yogurt knitters seemed to think I was in hiding.  :thup:
		
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Are you just posting to prove that you're not in hiding? I never thought you were. 

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped the insults and generalisations please. You're smarter than that.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Are you just posting to prove that you're not in hiding? I never thought you were. 

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped the insults and generalisations please. You're smarter than that.
		
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You've got it.  Don't want to disappoint some on here who have been throwing insults around themselves, just wanted them to  understand what it's like.


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You've got it.  Don't want to disappoint some on here who have been throwing insults around themselves, just wanted them to  understand what it's like.
		
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Well, you definitely showed them....


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## jp5 (Jun 10, 2017)

"Is it really tenable for the ordinary English working families of Kensington to have a Tory government imposed on them by Scottish MPs?"


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## Junior (Jun 10, 2017)

Is anyone worried that we have no one capable of leading the country ? Irrespective of which party was voted for.  Corbyn seems like a decent bloke, but I fear he'd get eaten alive by Brussels, Russia, China and the USA.  May is power crazy and terrible unless reading from a script. This leads me to believe that she can't think for herself or articulate an opinion. 

Im as big a floating voter as it gets.  Slightly more red than blue but I've swung both ways and stopped in the middle.  I've always focused on policies rather than the party, but also considered strong leadership as a key factor also.  This time round it was like deciding whether to poke yourself in the left eye or the right.  

Ruth Davidson and David Milliband are the only two that have impressed me in recent times.  I'd love to see two strong characters like these leading the race.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2017)

jp5 said:



			"Is it really tenable for the ordinary English working families of Kensington to have a Tory government imposed on them by Scottish MPs?"



Click to expand...

Naw..I have worked that one out.
It's the number of votes cast by the live in butlers, gardeners, housemaids, nannies, drivers ,security staff, and 'bed warmers' that swung it.


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## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Are you just posting to prove that you're not in hiding? I never thought you were. 

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped the insults and generalisations please. You're smarter than that.
		
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He isn't


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## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That's never going to happen with you, is it?  Wet as a Morcambe Saturday! :rofl:
		
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Ouch. I'll feel that for a few weeks.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

richy said:



			He isn't
		
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You're to assinous to comprehend.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2017)

I see the thread once again descended into childish insults and the same person in the middle of it


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see the thread once again descended into childish insults and the same person in the middle of it
		
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Yes, you being saintimonious again. Shame you're not the same in the footie thread.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see the thread once again descended into childish insults and the same person in the middle of it
		
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Then ignore or report it, your comments only lead to more pointless replies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, you being saintimonious again. Shame you're not the same in the footie thread.
		
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Point out where people are insulting each other on that thread. It maybe repeatative at times and people may need to agree to disagree and it's full of gentle ribbing but it's not full of the level of insults that the political threads are full of with you smack in the middle of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Back on topic please :thup:


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## User62651 (Jun 10, 2017)

Apparently chief whip on way to Belfast to negotiate a formal coalition with DUP, desperate times from May, DUP will have her over a barrel but she wont care, anything to cling on to power. Wonder if she'll say 'no deal is better than a bad deal' this time? Doubt it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Really Theresa, woman of your word?

https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/873137069283061760


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## bluewolf (Jun 10, 2017)

Does she know what the likely effect of this coalition will be on the NI peace process? Does she care? Is she that desperate for power?? Shocking, and quite frankly shameful if true.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Apparently chief whip on way to Belfast to negotiate a formal coalition with DUP, desperate times from May, DUP will have her over a barrel but she wont care, anything to cling on to power. Wonder if she'll say 'no deal is better than a bad deal' this time? Doubt it.
		
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Shows how low the political landscape of the nation has gone when the DUP have a say in then running of the country 

Such a pathetic state of affairs when there is not one single person worthy of leading our nation. 

We laughed at the state of the US with Trump , expect most are laughing at us now


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shows how low the political landscape of the nation has gone when the DUP have a say in then running of the country 

Such a pathetic state of affairs when there is not one single person worthy of leading our nation. 

We laughed at the state of the US with Trump , expect most are laughing at us now
		
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What is it that makes a person worthy to lead our nation?

That's as arrogant as some of SR's posts, what if Corbyn is a man of his word? He got the backing of a lot of people, what if May does get the right Brexit deal after the backing she got, are all voters stupid/ignorant/clueless

Did you vote this time or spoil your paper and if you voted was the leader of that party unworthy?

You have a very low opinion of democracy.


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## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see the thread once again descended into childish insults and the same person in the middle of it
		
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I apologise for my part in the childishness turn the thread took.


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## Kellfire (Jun 10, 2017)

The DUP summed up -

https://youtu.be/CMcX7k5S53g


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Back on topic please :thup:
		
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agree


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			What is it that makes a person worthy to lead our nation?

*That's as arrogant as some of SR's posts*, what if Corbyn is a man of his word? He got the backing of a lot of people, what if May does get the right Brexit deal after the backing she got, are all voters stupid/ignorant/clueless

Did you vote this time or spoil your paper and if you voted was the leader of that party unworthy?

You have a very low opinion of democracy.
		
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Ouch! That hurt.  I prefer 'opinionated'


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2017)

Can someone explain why people vote for Sinn Fein when their mp's don't go to Westminster? Totally wasted vote.

I understand why in NI elections but in a GE it seems entirely pointless.


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## User62651 (Jun 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Can someone explain why people vote for Sinn Fein when their mp's don't go to Westminster? Totally wasted vote.

I understand why in NI elections but in a GE it seems entirely pointless.
		
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To answer that you'd need to delve deeply into 500 years of Irish history, not really the place here imo.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2017)

That is why I added the point about NI elections. I DO understand that. Is there not another party in NI that has similar views but would actually represent the constituents at Westminster?


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## Kellfire (Jun 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is why I added the point about NI elections. I DO understand that. Is there not another party in NI that has similar views but would actually represent the constituents at Westminster?
		
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SDLP but they have since slunk into obscurity.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2017)

Thanks. So presumably the only other option is entirely unpalatable. Not a great situation.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Can someone explain why people vote for Sinn Fein when their mp's don't go to Westminster? Totally wasted vote.

I understand why in NI elections but in a GE it seems entirely pointless.
		
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And as bro in law pointed out. Seeing as they will never go into H of P and will never vote would Terry's Tories not have a majority anyway.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shows how low the political landscape of the nation has gone when the DUP have a say in then running of the country 

Such a pathetic state of affairs when there is not one single person worthy of leading our nation. 

We laughed at the state of the US with Trump , expect most are laughing at us now
		
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pauldj42 said:



			What is it that makes a person worthy to lead our nation?

That's as arrogant as some of SR's posts, what if Corbyn is a man of his word? He got the backing of a lot of people, what if May does get the right Brexit deal after the backing she got, are all voters stupid/ignorant/clueless

Did you vote this time or spoil your paper and if you voted was the leader of that party unworthy?

You have a very low opinion of democracy.
		
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Come on guys, you are both politically on the same side and this is a political thread.  Just enjoy the moment to take the mick out of the strong and stable Tories. 

I see TMays 2 advisers have resigned under threat from the 1922 committee (named after the year most Tories want to take us back to by the way). Strong and stable???  Making deals with the DUP, leader in utter denial as her hard drive crashed when when she tried to be a bit contrite, a dead (wo)man walking in the political sense, in fighting erupting, Brexit talks to start very soon.  What's not to like? (well apart from the fact that they have brought this all on themselves and the country will suffer for it)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Come on guys, you are both politically on the same side and this is a political thread.  Just enjoy the moment to take the mick out of the strong and stable Tories. 

I see TMays 2 advisers have resigned under threat from the 1922 committee (named after the year most Tories want to take us back to by the way). Strong and stable???  Making deals with the DUP, leader in utter denial as her hard drive crashed when when she tried to be a bit contrite, a dead (wo)man walking in the political sense, in fighting erupting, Brexit talks to start very soon.  What's not to like? (well apart from the fact that they have brought this all on themselves and the country will suffer for it)
		
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Don't worry mate LiverpoolNed has me on ignore and can't see my posts 

Those 2 falling on their swords once again saves slippery May a little bit and shifts the blame, I'd like to see her go quickly, but the longer she denies any responsibility the worse it's going to get.


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## Old Skier (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The silence from a number of normal posters is deafening :rofl:
		
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On the piss in Greece but although I personally condemn any terrorist action nobody can compare the gangster actions of the paramilitary groups in the same way as the 100,s of women and children the IRA killed and are still targeting.  Let's put things into context although it might not suit the argument of a few on here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			On the piss in Greece but although I personally condemn any terrorist action nobody can compare the gangster actions of the paramilitary groups in the same way as the 100,s of women and children the IRA killed and are still targeting.  Let's put things into context although it might not suit the argument of a few on here.
		
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The murder this week in the supermarket is linked to a loyalist feud, JC was, rightly, getting stick for stuff 20-30yrs ago.

There's no context to any murder, it's all wrong and you'd hope all our politicians would move away from it, not towards it as TM has


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## richy (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The murder this week in the supermarket is linked to a loyalist feud, JC was, rightly, getting stick for stuff 20-30yrs ago.

There's no context to any murder, it's all wrong and you'd hope all our politicians would move away from it, not towards it as TM has
		
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The murder in the supermarket car park in front of his 3 year old son? Just gangster actions


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2017)

What is Hard to understand.

 2 main parties and a few others. So stats say about 40% each by random choice. One of the main parties says you spending too much and your debt is too high so we will need to get control  meaning life is going to get more expense. 

Other main contender, with worse odds and little chance of needing to implement promises says we will make life great don't worry about tomorrow.

Guess which way short sighted debt ridden Mr and Mrs Average votes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

drdel said:



			What is Hard to understand.

 2 main parties and a few others. So stats say about 40% each by random choice. One of the main parties says you spending too much and your debt is too high so we will need to get control  meaning life is going to get more expense. 

Other main contender, with worse odds and little chance of needing to implement promises says we will make life great don't worry about tomorrow.

Guess which way short sighted debt ridden Mr and Mrs Average votes.
		
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Probably fed up with the lies of the "we're all in this together party" and seeing the rich get richer.

Or having comments made about their priorites and intelligence.

Maybe if one of these parties hadn't decided to risk it all less than 2 years into a 5yr term we wouldn't be asking these questions.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably* fed up with the lies *of the "we're all in this together party" *and seeing the rich get richer.*

Or having *comments made about their priorites and intelligence.*

Maybe if one of these parties hadn't decided to risk it all less than 2 years into a 5yr term we wouldn't be asking these questions.
		
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You really seem to be up tight with the Tories, almost paranoid about them. Calling people 'Liars' is a rather a serious accusation and one I never use. It's possible to find people in Politics making exaggerated claims and being economical with the truth and this happens in every political party and throughout the world.   I know you will probably suggest that I am the pot calling the kettle black but I am not as cynical and uptight as many of you on this Forum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You really seem to be up tight with the Tories, almost paranoid about them. Calling people 'Liars' is a rather a serious accusation and one I never use. It's possible to find people in Politics making exaggerated claims and being economical with the truth and this happens in every political party and throughout the world.   I know you will probably suggest that I am the pot calling the kettle black but I am not as cynical and uptight as many of you on this Forum.
		
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Before I answer, have you got your sensible head on or would we be both wasting our time?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Before I answer, have you got your sensible head on or would we be both wasting our time?
		
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I'm being serious here.  If someone changes their mind about something it doesn't make them a liar, we all must have had a change of view about something at times.  I  don't believe much Corbyn has said he would do in his manifesto but I would not dare to suggest he is a 'Liar', that word is getting overused and a is poor reflection of peoples attitudes.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably fed up with the lies of the "we're all in this together party" and seeing the rich get richer.

Or having comments made about their priorites and intelligence.

Maybe if one of these parties hadn't decided to risk it all less than 2 years into a 5yr term we wouldn't be asking these questions.
		
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I don't mind if the rich getting richer, providing we all get richer. Up until this last year we were the 2nd best performing economy in Europe yet food banks increased. Benefits for the disabled decreased. 

Apart from a few very bright politicians in each party, most of them are clueless about what the man on the street faces. 

As for some of the comments appearing about the young, the old etc... utterly disgraceful and beneath contempt. It's up to each political party to pitch something the electorate feel is needed. If they can't do that it's their fault, not the electorate's.

However, we get the society we deserve. If we can't make our govt accountable we're to blame.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm being serious here.  If someone changes their mind about something it doesn't make them a liar, we all must have had a change of view about something at times.  I  don't believe much Corbyn has said he would do in his manifesto but I would not dare to suggest he is a 'Liar', that word is getting overused and a poor reflection of peoples attitudes.
		
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Yet how many times has JC been accussed of lying about his mtgs with the IRA?

Anyway, I am uptight and extremely annoyed with the Tories, I voted to leave the EU and since the vote all I kept seeing and reading was the remainers basically told to shut up and accept it.

We trigger Article 50 and TM says no to a GE, good, let's get on with it and look after the Country, then she calls a GE, I didn't and don't accept it was for any other reason than they saw the chance to crush Labour.

We have then lurched from u-turn to u-turn and the tories in disarray, very rarely telling us they were the best for us, the best analogy I can use was going to buy a second hand car and the car salesman slagging off the dealership next door rather than convincing me about a particular car.

Then the result and rather than hold their/her hands up to the mess were in, all I'm seeing is them blaming everyone else, the youth/old/JC and running to the DUP to get a deal.

We now risk ours and our childrens future, Brexit, further elections, new leaders, it's a shambles and it's a shambles for one reason, Theresa May.

Vent over, please be honest, are you genuinely happy with the situation?


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Yet how many times has JC been accussed of lying about his mtgs with the IRA?

Anyway, I am uptight and extremely annoyed with the Tories, I voted to leave the EU and since the vote all I kept seeing and reading was the remainers basically told to shut up and accept it.

We trigger Article 50 and TM says no to a GE, good, let's get on with it and look after the Country, then she calls a GE, I didn't and don't accept it was for any other reason than they saw the chance to crush Labour.

We have then lurched from u-turn to u-turn and the tories in disarray, very rarely telling us they were the best for us, the best analogy I can use was going to buy a second hand car and the car salesman slagging off the dealership next door rather than convincing me about a particular car.

Then the result and rather than hold their/her hands up to the mess were in, all I'm seeing is them blaming everyone else, the youth/old/JC and running to the DUP to get a deal.

We now risk ours and our childrens future, Brexit, further elections, new leaders, it's a shambles and it's a shambles for one reason, Theresa May.

Vent over, please be honest, are you genuinely happy with the situation?
		
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I'm bl00dy not!!

My big concern is an alliance with the DUP might jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Yet how many times has JC been accussed of lying about his mtgs with the IRA?

Anyway, I am uptight and extremely annoyed with the Tories, I voted to leave the EU and since the vote all I kept seeing and reading was the remainers basically told to shut up and accept it.

We trigger Article 50 and TM says no to a GE, good, let's get on with it and look after the Country, then she calls a GE, I didn't and don't accept it was for any other reason than they saw the chance to crush Labour.

We have then lurched from u-turn to u-turn and the tories in disarray, very rarely telling us they were the best for us, the best analogy I can use was going to buy a second hand car and the car salesman slagging off the dealership next door rather than convincing me about a particular car.

Then the result and rather than hold their/her hands up to the mess were in, all I'm seeing is them blaming everyone else, the youth/old/JC and running to the DUP to get a deal.

We now risk ours and our childrens future, Brexit, further elections, new leaders, it's a shambles and it's a shambles for one reason, Theresa May.

Vent over, please be honest, are you genuinely happy with the situation?
		
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No I'm not happy, I would much prefer a strong majority with the Conservatives and Brexit becoming a reality without all the calls for second referendums and politicians trying to frustrate the process.

I have never called Corbyn a 'Liar' even though he is the antipathy of  everything I dislike in Politics. OK May has changed her mind on some  issues but what PM hasn't, I think she is being attacked unfairly in may  instances.  OK as PM she has to take the flack but for me she will do  for now, I guess I am entitled to think that way.

Regarding the way people keep criticizsng the Government for Food Banks,  the NHS and Austerity, what do they expect when the country is in the  amount of current debt.   The Tories have increased funding to the NHS  year on year, the cuts that have been made are to reduce waste so more  can be put into clinical care. Regarding Food Banks, they are a  relatively new thing and how can anyone complain about the good job they  do but if they had been put in place at any time in our history they  would have been used just the same, they are not a reflection on the  Tories being nasty.  We have to reduce the deficit and eventually pay  off the debt and we cannot leave it to future generations, austerity is a  sad fact of life and for any government to suggest we should return to  higher levels of state spending is not looking after the younger  generations but harnessing it with what could be potentially be the  specter of Greece in the UK. 

So, am I happy. No, im not but probably for different reasons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No I'm not happy, I would much prefer a strong majority with the Conservatives and Brexit becoming a reality without all the calls for second referendums and politicians trying to frustrate the process.

I have never called Corbyn a 'Liar' even though he is the antipathy of  everything I dislike in Politics. OK May has changed her mind on some  issues but what PM hasn't, I think she is being attacked unfairly in may  instances.  OK as PM she has to take the flack but for me she will do  for now, I guess I am entitled to think that way.

Regarding the way people keep criticizsng the Government for Food Banks,  the NHS and Austerity, what do they expect when the country is in the  amount of current debt.   The Tories have increased funding to the NHS  year on year, the cuts that have been made are to reduce waste so more  can be put into clinical care. Regarding Food Banks, they are a  relatively new thing and how can anyone complain about the good job they  do but if they had been put in place at any time in our history they  would have been used just the same, they are not a reflection on the  Tories being nasty.  We have to reduce the deficit and eventually pay  off the debt and we cannot leave it to future generations, austerity is a  sad fact of life and for any government to suggest we should return to  higher levels of state spending is not looking after the younger  generations but harnessing it with what could be potentially be the  specter of Greece in the UK. 

So, am I happy. No, im not but probably for different reasons.
		
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I genuinely don't know if you read my post apart from the liar bit.

Who mentioned NHS and food banks, I've not once criticised the job the tories were doing, my gripes are from mid April onwards apart from the Brexit point.

She had over 3 years guaranteed, she had a majority Tory Government, she risked it for vanity, 3 more years of tackling austerity and the country had no choice but to go along.

If you thought politicians were trying to frustrate the process before, god help us in the near future!


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No I'm not happy, I would much prefer a strong majority with the Conservatives and Brexit becoming a reality without all the calls for second referendums and politicians trying to frustrate the process.

I have never called Corbyn a 'Liar' even though he is the antipathy of  everything I dislike in Politics. OK May has changed her mind on some  issues but what PM hasn't, I think she is being attacked unfairly in may  instances.  OK as PM she has to take the flack but for me she will do  for now, I guess I am entitled to think that way.

Regarding the way people keep criticizsng the Government for Food Banks,  the NHS and Austerity, what do they expect when the country is in the  amount of current debt.   The Tories have increased funding to the NHS  year on year, the cuts that have been made are to reduce waste so more  can be put into clinical care. Regarding Food Banks, they are a  relatively new thing and how can anyone complain about the good job they  do but if they had been put in place at any time in our history they  would have been used just the same, they are not a reflection on the  Tories being nasty.  We have to reduce the deficit and eventually pay  off the debt and we cannot leave it to future generations, austerity is a  sad fact of life and for any government to suggest we should return to  higher levels of state spending is not looking after the younger  generations but harnessing it with what could be potentially be the  specter of Greece in the UK. 

So, am I happy. No, im not but probably for different reasons.
		
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Why does the deficit have to come down by almost Â£15bn a year? That's my gripe with the Tories. Why couldn't it have come down by Â£7bn a year, bearing in mind the NHS shortfall is Â£8bn? That's simplistic but that's my drift.

The NHS has had an increase year on year under the Tories... Now you're on ground I know exceptionally well. Short version, no it hasn't. Long version, there is a 6% cost saving/efficiency drive applied each year. They give a funding minus the 6%. Add to that the advances in healthcare and you now need more than inflation. And then there's the payback for the PFI's... the NHS is absolutely on its ar$e. Ann Widdicome put it very clearly. A cross party, honest review is needed, then proper funding applied.

Food banks; As part of a national charity board, for which the time is paid for by the company I work for before anyone gets giddy, I know food banks inside out and backside first. The growth in food banks, when we have an almost adequate benefits dept, is in the main down to cut backs in DWP staffing levels. They can't process claims quick enough, and actively give out food bank numbers to claimants to cover the delay. More recently this also covers elec and gas bills being covered by FB's.

In my view, whilst the Tory line is right the cuts have been too deep and too swiftly applied.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2017)

Shameful hypocrisy by the Tories.  After going on during previous election about the *danger *of a Labour coalition with the SNP with a Labour Westminster government the puppet of Nicola Sturgeon - and, this time around, Tory warnings of a Coalition of Chaos - we have both at once with the Tories - a Tory Westminster government the puppet of Arlene Foster in their own Coalition of Chaos - or should that be a Deal of Desperation

And so the DUP become part of the honest broker Westminster government to negotiate NI assembly process between Sinn Fein and...the DUP

You couldn't make it up - and you think the shambles can't give more and then the Sunday Times tomorrow is telling us that senior Tories are encouraging the Â£350m Man to challenge May for the Tory Party leadership - and become PM.  Holy moly....


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## chippa1909 (Jun 11, 2017)

And these nitwits are in charge of nuclear weapons....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I'm bl00dy not!!

My big concern is an alliance with the DUP might jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement.
		
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I have real concerns about that.....Brexit and the DUP...double whammy for NI.

Choose your friends carefully.
At every election for the next 50 years the Tories will be reminded of who they went into partnership with in 2017.
It will cost them dearly long term.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2017)

Very true. It's done for the Lib Dems for the last two elections.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2017)

640,000 signatures in 24hrs on on-line petition condemning any deal with the DUP.

What a stramash


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			640,000 signatures in 24hrs on on-line petition condemning any deal with the DUP.

What a stramash
		
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Complete waste of time.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2017)

Saw this and thought it was a nice summary


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Complete waste of time.
		
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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You're to assinous to comprehend.
		
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Er... ..What?


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Complete waste of time.
		
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So, are you happy that the Conservatives have got into bed with the DUP?


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## shagster (Jun 11, 2017)

as usual some utter bs on here
can some [please tell me how the strong and stable party are doing with the national debt, as every article i read states that it has almost doubled
no mention from the extreme right wingers on here how they are reducing it
7 years to double it, that is some achievement, but there are still some on here that believe they are doing a good job
what if JC got his sums wrong, he cant put us in a much worse state then we are now
what is a few more trillion anyway
no doubt some idiot will come along and put tory spin on it say its not as bad and blame labour, but it is the tory party that has doubled the debt
before some of the blinker wearers on here slag the young generation off for voting for a manifesto of hope and vision, compared with one of fear, hypocrisy and threats, these are the future tax payers that your pensions etc will rely on
we now have the coalition of chaos with the slime ball boris waiting to stab another PM in the back, then god help us and the rest of the world because we will be seen as a laughing stock
with regards to finger on the button, please can you which country is our enemy, and who are they or are we going to nuke manchester and barking
any idiot that pushes the button is going to Armageddon, so we might as well spend the money at home instead of wasting it, on something we will never use, just leave that to usa and russia


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2017)

shagster said:



			as usual some utter bs on here
can some [please tell me how the strong and stable party are doing with the national debt, as every article i read states that it has almost doubled
no mention from the extreme right wingers on here how they are reducing it
7 years to double it, that is some achievement, but there are still some on here that believe they are doing a good job
what if JC got his sums wrong, he cant put us in a much worse state then we are now
what is a few more trillion anyway
no doubt some idiot will come along and put tory spin on it say its not as bad and blame labour, but it is the tory party that has doubled the debt
before some of the blinker wearers on here slag the young generation off for voting for a manifesto of hope and vision, compared with one of fear, hypocrisy and threats, these are the future tax payers that your pensions etc will rely on
we now have the coalition of chaos with the slime ball boris waiting to stab another PM in the back, then god help us and the rest of the world because we will be seen as a laughing stock
with regards to finger on the button, please can you which country is our enemy, and who are they or are we going to nuke manchester and barking
any idiot that pushes the button is going to Armageddon, so we might as well spend the money at home instead of wasting it, on something we will never use, just leave that to usa and russia
		
Click to expand...

There's of explanations further back in the thread, even one from when you asked before. Rather than spend time on your Xbox, waiting for everything to be handed to you, why not do a bit of honest research.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, are you happy that the Conservatives have got into bed with the DUP?
		
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Where did you read that?  I said the petition was a complete waste of time.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

shagster said:



			as usual some utter bs on here
...
		
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And you seem to be responsible for at least as much as anyone else!

Stating 'almost doubled' - which it hasn't, even though the increase is certainly sizeable - then stating '7 years to double it' - a false assertion you've made elsewhere - is complete B/S!

As Hobbit posted, do proper (even just a little) research, get your facts right and then post an opinion backed up by them! anything else is simply your opinion or/and (as in this case) B/S! Though I'm not sure whether Hobbit (or SR for that matter) realises how ancient (4 days older than me!) you are!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

shagster said:



			as usual some utter bs on here
can some [please tell me how the strong and stable party are doing with the national debt, as every article i read states that it has almost doubled
no mention from the extreme right wingers on here how they are reducing it
7 years to double it, that is some achievement, but there are still some on here that believe they are doing a good job
what if JC got his sums wrong, he cant put us in a much worse state then we are now
what is a few more trillion anyway
no doubt some idiot will come along and put tory spin on it say its not as bad and blame labour, but it is the tory party that has doubled the debt
before some of the blinker wearers on here slag the young generation off for voting for a manifesto of hope and vision, compared with one of fear, hypocrisy and threats, these are the future tax payers that your pensions etc will rely on
we now have the coalition of chaos with the slime ball boris waiting to stab another PM in the back, then god help us and the rest of the world because we will be seen as a laughing stock
with regards to finger on the button, please can you which country is our enemy, and who are they or are we going to nuke manchester and barking
any idiot that pushes the button is going to Armageddon, so we might as well spend the money at home instead of wasting it, on something we will never use, just leave that to usa and russia
		
Click to expand...

You really are not doing young people any favors!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Er... ..What? 

Click to expand...

Sorry, should have been 'asinine'  Was either a bit late or my age to blame!


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry, should have been 'asinine'  Was either a bit late or my age to blame!
		
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:rofl: Thought so!

With a 40% 'error rate', perhaps you should be a bit more careful when criticising folk's ability to comprehend!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl: Thought so!

With a 40% 'error rate', perhaps you should be a bit more careful* when criticising folk's ability to comprehend*! 

Click to expand...

No that's your job and you are expert at it.      

 Whats 40% of a half wit?


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No that's your job and you are expert at it.      

 Whats 40% of a half wit?
		
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An F Wit...?&#128537;


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2017)

Imurg said:



			An F Wit...?&#128537;
		
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Superb:whoo:


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			...
 Whats 40% of a half wit?
		
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Possibly a Rocket?

Maybe a Socket?

Or perhaps even a combo - specially after pub closing! 

:rofl:


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## shagster (Jun 11, 2017)

regards national debt
0.96 trillion in april 2010
1.73 trillion in march 2017
not doubled but not far off in 7 years
yes i am ancient
at least JC had a manifesto to talk about - opinion
may had nothing - opinion
where are our enemies that we need nuclear weapons for?
what is an xbox
i might come up with some theories that may be deemed as BS, but not as many as some 
i dont read every thread on here, life is too short, so if i miss a few things apologies, anyway golf needs to be played so only look at meal breaks when on shift
after all its only opinion right or wrong, yet i have seen no one prove that JC could not fund his ideology, but as i said at least he had something


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## BristolMike (Jun 11, 2017)

shagster said:



			regards national debt
0.96 trillion in april 2010
1.73 trillion in march 2017
not doubled but not far off in 7 years
yes i am ancient
at least JC had a manifesto to talk about - opinion
may had nothing - opinion
where are our enemies that we need nuclear weapons for?
what is an xbox
i might come up with some theories that may be deemed as BS, but not as many as some 
i dont read every thread on here, life is too short, so if i miss a few things apologies, anyway golf needs to be played so only look at meal breaks when on shift
after all its only opinion right or wrong, yet i have seen no one prove that JC could not fund his ideology, but as i said at least he had something
		
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your figures are completely flawed though....

in 2010 the deficit under labour was Â£151Bn or at around 10% of GDP. Last year the deficit was only Â£52bn or around 2-3% of current GDP. That is a huge reduction. It would have been impossible for the conservatives to immediately cut the deficit to Â£0 and its unrealistic to believe they could. What they are doing is slowly reducing it bringing us into a state where we would no longer be borrowing. 

You shouldnt be be asking why has the national debt increase to that level, but wondering how bad it would have been with the reckless labour spending had they stayed in power.


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

shagster said:



			regards national debt
0.96 trillion in april 2010
1.73 trillion in march 2017
not doubled...
		
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Then kindly desist from stating that it has!

Thank you for admitting your error though!

And, of course, the Banking Crisis has had a huge influence on government attitudes to deficits/debt! It's still felt that the current levels of deficit/debt are acceptable compared to the alternatives! It wasn't those policies that the GE was actually fought over! In fact, I'm inclined to believe that the actual *policies* over which the election was fought will rapidly be forgotten!


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2017)

BristolMike said:



			your figures are completely flawed though....

in 2010 the deficit under labour was Â£151Bn or at around 10% of GDP. Last year the deficit was only Â£52bn or around 2-3% of current GDP. That is a huge reduction. It would have been impossible for the conservatives to immediately cut the deficit to Â£0 and its unrealistic to believe they could. What they are doing is slowly reducing it bringing us into a state where we would no longer be borrowing. 

You shouldnt be be asking why has the national debt increase to that level, but wondering how bad it would have been with the reckless labour spending had they stayed in power.
		
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Well I agree with all but the final paragraph - which is pure opinion/speculation!

If you refer to the graph in this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt#/media/File:UK_Debt_to_GDP_ratio.png

you should be able to realise that Labour actually reduced the deficit as a percentage of GDP immediately on being voted in in 1997! Ubder Conservatives, it had been increasing steadily! Even in 2007, after 6 years of slightly increasing %-age, it had not returned to the same percentage of Major's Conservatives!

It was only the International Banking Crisis of 2008 that triggered the, quite reasonable imo, 'Quantitative Easing', and other debt-dreating policies/exercises. While Labour happened to be the party in power, so was always going to get accused of mis-management, I'm pretty certain that the Conservatives would have adopted pretty similar policies!

It seems to me that Labour's 'Monkey on the Back' is supposed mis-management of 'the economy', while the Conservatives seem to be fraught with (forced) U-Turns!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Imurg said:



			An F Wit...?&#63001;
		
Click to expand...

Thats the one


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly a Rocket?

Maybe a Socket?

Or perhaps even a combo - specially after pub closing! 

:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

I was thinking a  Foxhole or maybe a 'A' Hole


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Well I agree with all but the final paragraph - which is pure opinion/speculation!

If you refer to the graph in this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt#/media/File:UK_Debt_to_GDP_ratio.png

you should be able to realise that Labour actually reduced the deficit as a percentage of GDP immediately on being voted in in 1997! Ubder Conservatives, it had been increasing steadily! Even in 2007, after 6 years of slightly increasing %-age, it had not returned to the same percentage of Major's Conservatives!

It was only the International Banking Crisis of 2008 that triggered the, quite reasonable imo, 'Quantitative Easing', and other debt-dreating policies/exercises. While Labour happened to be the party in power, so was always going to get accused of mis-management, I'm pretty certain that the Conservatives would have adopted pretty similar policies!

It seems to me that Labour's 'Monkey on the Back' is supposed mis-management of 'the economy', while the Conservatives seem to be fraught with (forced) U-Turns!
		
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Can you please refrain from mentioning any tory governments prior to Blair being elected, everyone knows Labour inherited a land of milk and honey


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2017)

Michael Gove back in the cabinet, the man who described the Good Friday Peace agreement as a "mortal stain" and a "humiliation" for the British Army.

In other news she's doing a deal with the DUP, at least they've now got a friend in the cabinet!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)




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## Tashyboy (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 22922

Click to expand...

I think corbdrik may have a cunning plan master.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 11, 2017)

So, did May lie to the Queen when she said she could form a gevernment?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 11, 2017)

No
She leads the largest party by far
She has first dibs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2017)

The Supreme Chump could form a government without the DUP - but I doubt she'd get far far with it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Supreme Chump could form a government without the DUP - but I doubt she'd get far far with it.
		
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Crikey, thanks for the enlightenment, we would have never noticed 

'Supreme Chump'  Is that the new Christian speak for "Whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to any other person" :thup:


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## bluewolf (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did you read that?  I said the petition was a complete waste of time.
		
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That doesn't answer the question......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Crikey, thanks for the enlightenment, we would have never noticed 

'Supreme Chump'  Is that the new Christian speak for "Whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to any other person" :thup:
		
Click to expand...

No.  It's simply a reflection of the truth of the matter.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			That doesn't answer the question......
		
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I see no correlation with the question and my statement.  I suggested that the petition was a waste of time, I am  saying that it will achieve nothing, just like every other petition that has been made on that web site.   If you want to read into that statement that it means I have a particular view on a coalition between the DUP and Conservatives then you are wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No.  It's simply a reflection of the truth of the matter.
		
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Calling the PM a 'Supreme Chump' is an opinion, not the truth, the truth is not your opinion as a right.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I see no correlation with the question and my statement.  I suggested that the petition was a waste of time, I am  saying that it will achieve nothing, just like every other petition that has been made on that web site.   If you want to read into that statement that it means I have a particular view on a coalition between the DUP and Conservatives then you are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't care less about the petition. I'm simply asking for your view on the proposed coalition....


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## richy (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I see no correlation with the question and my statement.  I suggested that the petition was a waste of time, I am  saying that it will achieve nothing, just like every other petition that has been made on that web site.   If you want to read into that statement that it means I have a particular view on a coalition between the DUP and Conservatives then you are wrong.
		
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What about the petition against the Trump state visit? That seems to have achieved something.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 22922

Click to expand...

Strange how that logic does not seem to apply to the SNP in Scotland.
BBC now joining in by saying that 24 is a greater number than 35.

Oh great joy, Gove and Viceroy Muddle back in the cabinet.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2017)

Have the BBC got Diane Abbott working out their numbers for them?


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have the BBC got Diane Abbott working out their numbers for them?
		
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Yup, and their budget but not the salaries.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

On thing about Diane Abbott.  I would suggest that it the tories and their supporters spent more time worrying about their own policies and leader instead of taking every opportunity to take the **^& out of her then they may have connected a bit better with more of the electorate.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

richy said:



			What about the petition against the Trump state visit? That seems to have achieved something.
		
Click to expand...

No it never, the visit is going ahead!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			On thing about Diane Abbott.  I would suggest that it the tories and their supporters spent more time worrying about their own policies and leader instead of taking every opportunity to take the **^& out of her then they may have connected a bit better with more of the electorate. 

Click to expand...

I think that applies to their whole approach towards Corbyn as well. Concentrate on your own game and everything else takes care of itself. They ended up looking like nasty bullies again, if only they had a leader who had spoken out about nasty parties before and so would prevent this from happening.....................

Incidentally, has DA been seen since the election? JC needs to sort that one out as surely he can not leave her in any form of shadow cabinet position.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			I couldn't care less about the petition. I'm simply asking for your view on the proposed coalition....
		
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I think you are getting a bit confused on this.  I replied to  a post about the petition suggesting it was a waste of time.   You quoted my post and linked my statement to  my opinion on the coalition between the Conservatives and the DUP.   My comment that these petitions are a waste of time and never achieve anything is a different matter.  If you want my opinion on the coalition then just ask me as a separate question.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			So, are you happy that the Conservatives have got into bed with the DUP?
		
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bluewolf said:



			That doesn't answer the question......
		
Click to expand...




bluewolf said:



			I couldn't care less about the petition. I'm simply asking for your view on the proposed coalition....
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I think you are getting a bit confused on this.  I replied to  a post about the petition suggesting it was a waste of time.   You quoted my post and linked my statement to  my opinion on the coalition between the Conservatives and the DUP.   My comment that these petitions are a waste of time and never achieve anything is a different matter.*  If you want my opinion on the coalition then just ask me as a separate question*.
		
Click to expand...

I think he did.  3 times.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2017)

Kay on Radio Scotland talk show desperately failing to get someone to come on and say they voted Tory.:lol:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Calling the PM a 'Supreme Chump' is an opinion, not the truth, the truth is not your opinion as a right.
		
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It was not that which I was saying was the truth of the matter...which I think was quite clear from my post.

And I have no idea whatsoever what you mean by _'Christian speak'_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			On thing about Diane Abbott.  I would suggest that it the tories and their supporters spent more time worrying about their own policies and leader instead of taking every opportunity to take the **^& out of her then they may have connected a bit better with more of the electorate. 

Click to expand...

Well said - especially as we do not actually know how Diane Abbott is.  She could easy have had a nervous breakdown given the stick she was getting and the pressure of the situation.  Indeed her mistakes may well have been down to her state of mind - a state of mind that she had been covering up or trying to manage.  We just do not know.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			No it never, the visit is going ahead!
		
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Well it might as no date has been set.  But I suggest that it will not go ahead i the near term - and if it is cancelled it will Bragger who cancels it as he could not bear the ignominy of the invitation being pulled.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was not that which I was saying was the truth of the matter...which I think was quite clear from my post.

And I have no idea whatsoever what you mean by _'Christian speak'_

Click to expand...

Maybe he feels you are being very un-Christian in your name calling...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe he feels you are being very un-Christian in your name calling...
		
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Well...in my tradition - in having a belief and a faith I am forgiven all of my sins up front 

Would I have been similarly pulled up if I referred to a certain Tony Bliar?


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

The UK has a system, we voted and the Conservatives won more votes than their competitors- live with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			The UK has a system, we voted and the Conservatives won more votes than their competitors- live with it.
		
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The Tories won 43% of the vote, the others won 57%.  Can you live with *that*?

Besides - the GE was not a referendum,  in the end the actual %s do not matter that much - what matters is the numbers of seats - because it is on the numbers of seats that the Tories are claiming the right to form the government.

So the Tories do not have a majority of the vote and they do not have a majority of the seats, these are simple facts.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			The UK has a system, we voted and the Conservatives won more votes than their competitors- live with it.
		
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I have no issue with them winning more votes, it's called democracy.

You seemed to be the one having that issue.

It's the deal with the DUP that is upsetting those who voted for them and a leader who won't take any responsibility.


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## ger147 (Jun 12, 2017)

Queen's Speech postponed, oops...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Queen's Speech postponed, oops...
		
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Too many things to be sorted out so that Tory Backbenchers; the DUP; and the White Queen of the North are not upset or feel left out.

May messing about with Queenie,  now that won't go down well with the DUP 

Meanwhile the Orange Order is reported as going to the DUP asking for Arlene Foster to require the ban on certain Orange Marches to be lifted.  So likes of Portadown and Dumcree marches back in the calendar - have we forgotten the chaos these marches caused.

This is not good.  Sinn Fein now saying that no Tory-DUP agreement can be good for NI.  The Good Friday Agreement must not be undermined.  I have absolutely no doubt that peace in NI *must* remain the number one priority at the moment - ahead of almost anything else - including survival of a Tory Party government.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 12, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Queen's Speech postponed, oops...
		
Click to expand...


Anyone know the earliest date we can be back at the polling stations?

I reckon we'll be back in weeks rather than months....

What happened to fixed term governments ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Anyone know the earliest date we can be back at the polling stations?

I reckon we'll be back in weeks rather than months....

What happened to fixed term governments ...
		
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...and had the Tories not heard of Pandora's Box - because they well and truly have thrown the lid wide open.


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## User62651 (Jun 12, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



*Anyone know the earliest date we can be back at the polling stations?*

I reckon we'll be back in weeks rather than months....

What happened to fixed term governments ...
		
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How about between Christmas and New year week - it'd liven up an otherwise dreary holiday and a trip to the polling station would give us all something to do, stretch the legs!:mmm:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

On the DUP supporting the Tories in Westminster...what is the situation in respect of EVEL?  Are the DUP MPs allowed to vote on matters that are devolved to the NI assembly?  Does it work the same way as how EVEL impacts the SNP MPs?

Because if the DUP MPs can't vote on matters deemed subject to EVEL then the Tory Government could be losing votes left, right and centre?


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## ger147 (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the DUP supporting the Tories in Westminster...what is the situation in respect of EVEL?  Are the DUP MPs allowed to vote on matters that are devolved to the NI assembly?  Does it work the same way as how EVEL impacts the SNP MPs?

Because if the DUP MPs can't vote on matters deemed subject to EVEL then the Tory Government could be losing votes left, right and centre?
		
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If only English MP's vote on EVEL matters, the Tories have 298 English MP's, a majority of 61.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well...in my tradition - in having a belief and a faith I am forgiven all of my sins up front 

Would I have been similarly pulled up if I referred to a certain Tony Bliar?
		
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Judge unto others... and in my opinion, what has who you call got to do with it. I don't like to see the Jimmy Krankie comment, although when someone gets too giddy it comes out.

I don't like how neither the Tories nor the SNP have conducted themselves...Labour played a blinder, and well done to them. 

Simply put, its disrespectful and diminishes the caller rather than the called.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Tories won 43% of the vote, the others won 57%.  Can you live with *that*?

Besides - the GE was not a referendum,  in the end the actual %s do not matter that much - what matters is the numbers of seats - because it is on the numbers of seats that the Tories are claiming the right to form the government.

So the Tories do not have a majority of the vote and they do not have a majority of the seats, these are simple facts.
		
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You know how the electoral system works. Twisting and semantics, again, don't make you right in this instance. It's just childish points scoring.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2017)

Why the Queen's speech has been delayed according to one theory from the BBC:

_One of the reasons for the delay is also believed to be because the speech has to be written on goat's skin parchment paper, which takes a few days to dry - and the Tory negotiations with the DUP mean it cannot be ready in time._
                                                                                            Bizarre does not cover it. Give Queenie an ipad to read it off , get with the times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Judge unto others... and in my opinion, what has who you call got to do with it. I don't like to see the Jimmy Krankie comment, although when someone gets too giddy it comes out.

I don't like how neither the Tories nor the SNP have conducted themselves...Labour played a blinder, and well done to them. 

Simply put, its disrespectful and diminishes the caller rather than the called.



You know how the electoral system works. Twisting and semantics, again, don't make you right in this instance. It's just childish points scoring.
		
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Yes I do know.  It works on seats and not % of the vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

ger147 said:



			If only English MP's vote on EVEL matters, the Tories have 298 English MP's, a majority of 61.
		
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Of course - obvious now you mention it


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

I haven't read back to see if this has been said by others. 

Mrs May is now going into a form of coalition with others and it's widely reported that she will change her Queens speech to suit both the coalition and those who didn't approve of certain manifesto proposals that will now not appear. 

My question is  - that is not what Joe Public voted for, a watered down set of proposals,  so is she within her rights to govern under a false Queens Speech?  (This is not my view as I'm glad she won't now be shafting us pensioners)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I haven't read back to see if this has been said by others. 

Mrs May is now going into a form of coalition with others and it's widely reported that she will change her Queens speech to suit both the coalition and those who didn't approve of certain manifesto proposals that will now not appear. 

My question is  - that is not what Joe Public voted for, a watered down set of proposals,  so is she within her rights to govern under a false Queens Speech?  (This is not my view as I'm glad she won't now be shafting us pensioners)
		
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What's a false Queen's Speech?  If The People don't like what the Tories put in their Queens Speech - and they can put in whatever they want - then they can vote the Tories out next GE.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I haven't read back to see if this has been said by others. 

Mrs May is now going into a form of coalition with others and it's widely reported that she will change her Queens speech to suit both the coalition and those who didn't approve of certain manifesto proposals that will now not appear. 

My question is  - that is not what Joe Public voted for, a watered down set of proposals,  so is she within her rights to govern under a false Queens Speech?  (This is not my view as I'm glad she won't now be shafting us pensioners)
		
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Very good point Chris. You could ask why a party of only 10 MP's has more right to be part of a govt than a party with over 260?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			640,000 signatures in 24hrs on on-line petition condemning any deal with the DUP.

What a stramash
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Complete waste of time.
		
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bluewolf said:



			So, are you happy that the Conservatives have got into bed with the DUP?
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			I think he did.  3 times.  

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You will see my quote, It only mentioned my feeling that these petitions are a waste of time.   I have not answered the question on the DUP and Conservatives as I have no idea if they will reach an agreement and what the terms would be. Ask me again after they have one if you like and I will be glad to oblige.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Very good point Chris. You could ask why a party of only 10 MP's has more right to be part of a govt than a party with over 260?
		
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Not just the DUP - what about what _The White Queen of the North_ is wanting in respect of the Single Market.  Don't ignore wee Ruthie...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You will see my quote, It only mentioned my feeling that these petitions are a waste of time.   I have not answered the question on the DUP and Conservatives as I have no idea if they will reach an agreement and what the terms would be. Ask me again after they have one if you like and I will be glad to oblige.
		
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Would you be happy if the DUP take on board a request from the Orange Order to seek an unbanning of such as the Portadown and Dumcree Orange Walks, and then the DUP require that from the Tory government as part of the price for their support?

it's a hypothetical - just interested in where the boundaries of your acceptance of the DUP might be.


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's a false Queen's Speech?  If The People don't like what the Tories put in their Queens Speech - and they can put in whatever they want - then they can vote the Tories out next GE.
		
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False against the manifesto they were elected on. 

So, would you be condoning a party who made several promises that helped them get elected, who then left them out of the Queens speech and never carried them through but forced you to wait 5 years before you could vote them out?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			False against the manifesto they were elected on. 

So, would you be condoning a party who made several promises that helped them get elected, who then left them out of the Queens speech and never carried them through but forced you to wait 5 years before you could vote them out?
		
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Well - if a government could only put forward a Queen's Speech covering the whole manifesto - and nothing but their manifesto - then there could be a fair bit missing as some of the policies in the manifesto are not yet thought through, costed or subject to consultation (not thinking of anything in particular of course).  

And if the outcome of a GE was the need for a coalition - what then for a Queens Speech?  What's in - what's out?  If nothing can be out - then no Queens Speech - or no Queens Speech that would get passed - and so another GE.  Surely?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			False against the manifesto they were elected on. 

So, would you be condoning a party who made several promises that helped them get elected, who then left them out of the Queens speech and never carried them through but forced you to wait 5 years before you could vote them out?
		
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Unfortunately that is the system. The same occurred when we had a Con / LB coalition a few years ago. Parts from each parties manifesto had to be dropped as compromises were looked for. Our system is not geared up for coalition politics, we are quite a black and white system. In the end you have to vote for a party / mp that you believe broadly meets your views. If compromises have to happen you have to expect they will occur broadly on the lines of their original manifesto. Not perfect but the alternative is election after election until we get a clear winner.


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - if a government could only put forward a Queen's Speech covering the whole manifesto - and nothing but their manifesto - then there could be a fair bit missing as some of the policies in the manifesto are not yet thought through, costed or subject to consultation (not thinking of anything in particular of course).  

And if the outcome of a GE was the need for a coalition - what then for a Queens Speech?  What's in - what's out?  If nothing can be out - then no Queens Speech - or no Queens Speech that would get passed - and so another GE.  Surely?
		
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But if they ask the nation to vote for them on a set of pledges then it's pretty fraudulent if they don't enact any afterwards. I'm not stupid, I do understand the politics but despite what they say - the country does NOT vote for a coalition


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You will see my quote, It only mentioned my feeling that these petitions are a waste of time*.   I have not answered the question on the DUP and Conservatives as I have no idea if they will reach an agreement and what the terms would be.* Ask me again after they have one if you like and I will be glad to oblige.
		
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You seem to have a lot of opinions on Brexit though where we have no idea if they will reach an agreement and what terms it would be on


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			But if they ask the nation to vote for them on a set of pledges then it's pretty fraudulent if they don't enact any afterwards. I'm not stupid, I do understand the politics but despite what they say - the country does NOT vote for a coalition
		
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Indeed - we do not vote for a coalition.  But we may end up with a coalition.  So what would go into the coalition's Queens Speech?   

The extension of your QS argument would seem to be that if a GE does not result in a majority then there would almost certainly have to be a further GE, because the manifestos of the parties in the coalition would be different.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			False against the manifesto they were elected on. 

So, would you be condoning a party who made several promises that helped them get elected, who then left them out of the Queens speech and never carried them through but forced you to wait 5 years before you could vote them out?
		
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Well that is (in inverse) what happened to the LibDems with tuition fees - and look where they are today


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			But if they ask the nation to vote for them on a set of pledges then it's pretty fraudulent if they don't enact any afterwards. I'm not stupid, I do understand the politics but despite what they say - the country does NOT vote for a coalition
		
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How do you counter that though? If we had a system of PR then a coalition would be almost inevitable and parties would have to factor that in before an election. Deals would have to be announced in their manifesto's and people would have a better idea of what they are voting for. FPtP does not encourage this way of working.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2017)

Ruthies 12 MP's now hold the key to Brexit.
Scotland voted strongly to remain in Europe 
No wonder she has gone into hiding and actually running away from the press.

Interesting times ahead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Just apropos not very much at all - but on under 24s and Corbyn.

My 22 yr old daughter voted and grabbed me on Friday evening.  She said _"have you seen this Dad?"_ as she thrust her iPhone 7 into my hands. _ "Watch it"_.  It was a video by Corbyn thanking all who had voted Labour in the election.  It was a very good and authentic statement of thanks, and as I watched it my daughter said _"it's great isn't it Dad - it puts a shiver down my spine"_  QED.

My daughter has much interest in social issues (she did a Sociology degree) and politics, but has not actually been very politically engaged before this GE.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just apropos not very much at all - but on under 24s and Corbyn.

My 22 yr old daughter voted and grabbed me on Friday evening.  She said _"have you seen this Dad?"_ as she thrust her iPhone 7 into my hands. _ "Watch it"_.  It was a video by Corbyn thanking all who had voted Labour in the election.  It was a very good and authentic statement of thanks, and as I watched it my daughter said _"it's great isn't it Dad - it puts a shiver down my spine"_  QED.
		
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Apparently Corbyn was down with the grime massive who had quite a big influence in the way the kids voted. I would pay good money to see the Tory party try that approach next time and see Andrea Ledsome hanging out with Stormzy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Apparently Corbyn was down with the grime massive who had quite a big influence in the way the kids voted. I would pay good money to see the Tory party try that approach next time and see Andrea Ledsome hanging out with Stormzy.
		
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She was genuinely enthused...it was very encouraging.

BTW - anyone watching _Broken _?  The shocking thing about it is knowing that what the Anna Friel character undergoes in the hands of the DWP is true to life, and the lengths she goes to to scrape together money to live on are not that far-fetched - how far-fetched they actually are I am not so sure - perhaps not at all.

The country we live in in 2017 - the 5th (or is it 6th) most prosperous country in the world...shameful


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do you counter that though? If we had a system of PR then a coalition would be almost inevitable and parties would have to factor that in before an election. Deals would have to be announced in their manifesto's and people would have a better idea of what they are voting for. FPtP does not encourage this way of working.
		
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I don't have an answer to the problem but what I was clear about before, and am also this time, is that nobody gets what they voted for and that isn't right.


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## ger147 (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I don't have an answer to the problem but what I was clear about before, and am also this time, is that nobody gets what they voted for and that isn't right.
		
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I'm sorry but that's simply not true.

All the electorate get to vote for is their local MP. From then on, the system is fairly simple.

The party who gets the most seats is invited by the Queen to form a government. There is nothing set down anywhere that states the party itself must have a majority on its own, merely that they have to be able to command a majority in the house.

If they can do that via a formal or informal agreement with another party or parties there's nothing wrong with that at all. They then put a Queen's speech together and it has to be passed in the HoC's.

If it gets passed then it's off to work for everyone.


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

ger147 said:



			I'm sorry but that's simply not true.

All the electorate get to vote for is their local MP. From then on, the system is fairly simple.

The party who gets the most seats is invited by the Queen to form a government. There is nothing set down anywhere that states the party itself must have a majority on its own, merely that they have to be able to command a majority in the house.

If they can do that via a formal or informal agreement with another party or parties there's nothing wrong with that at all. They then put a Queen's speech together and it has to be passed in the HoC's.

If it gets passed then it's off to work for everyone.
		
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I think, having lived through elections since the 1950's I do know all of that. 

My point is that you vote for your MP for a number of reasons  but it's likely it's for their policies and promises made during the run up to the vote and outlined in their manifesto. So, they don't have an overall majority, go into a partnership and, as a result, ditch most of their promises and claim " that's what you voted for" errrrr  no it wasn't


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## ger147 (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			I think, having lived through elections since the 1950's I do know all of that. 

My point is that you vote for your MP for a number of reasons  but it's likely it's for their policies and promises made during the run up to the vote and outlined in their manifesto. So, they don't have an overall majority, go into a partnership and, as a result, ditch most of their promises and claim " that's what you voted for" errrrr  no it wasn't
		
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We vote for the composition of the house. If the party with the largest number of seats don't have an overall majority then it's perfectly clear they won't necessarily be able to deliver everything laid out in their manifesto. So thst IS what we have voted for i.e. the winner not having a majority.

I don't consider manifestos to be "promises" but merely an indication of the policies they would like to implement if they can. If they don't get a majority in their own then they can't do it all, simples...


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

ger147 said:



			We vote for the composition of the house. If the party with the largest number of seats don't have an overall majority then it's perfectly clear they won't necessarily be able to deliver everything laid out in their manifesto. So thst IS what we have voted for i.e. the winner not having a majority.

I don't consider manifestos to be "promises" but merely an indication of the policies they would like to implement if they can. If they don't get a majority in their own then they can't do it all, simples...
		
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Good for you, I hope you'll be very happy with the results you end up with !


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## ger147 (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Good for you, I hope you'll be very happy with the results you end up with !
		
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It doesn't matter whether I'm happy or not, just as it doesn't matter if you're happy or not. That's the system we have and if you don't like it, the other choice is lump it...


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## Foxholer (Jun 12, 2017)

chrisd said:



			False against the manifesto they were elected on. 

So, would you be condoning a party who made several promises that helped them get elected, who then left them out of the Queens speech and never carried them through but forced you to wait 5 years before you could vote them out?
		
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That's an ever-present consequence of 'UK Democracy'! Whatever is in a Party's Manifesto is only able to be committed to if that Party has an overall majority! Any deals made in order to 'rule' trump rolleyes manifesto 'promises'! It's unreasonable, imo, to deem such deals 'broken promises'! Waiting 5 years (or perhaps less! ) to boot out the elected Party (in a coalition) that failed to implement a particular manifesto item is no different to waiting the same period because one prefers another Party to govern in the first place!

After all, we don't actually 'vote for the Party' in he first place! In UK's version of Democracy, we merely vote for a particular candidate in our electorate! 

Btw. The Queen's Speech is part of the opening for each Parliamentary Session and outlines proposed legislation for that session. As such, it may not include everything in even an outright winning Party's Manifesto, simply those parts the Government proposes for that Session!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			That's an ever-present consequence of 'UK Democracy'! Whatever is in a Party's Manifesto is only able to be committed to if that Party has an overall majority! Any deals made in order to 'rule' trump rolleyes manifesto 'promises'! It's unreasonable, imo, to deem such deals 'broken promises'! Waiting 5 years (or perhaps less! ) to boot out the elected Party (in a coalition) that failed to implement a particular manifesto item is no different to waiting the same period because one prefers another Party to govern in the first place!

After all, we don't actually 'vote for the Party' in he first place! In UK's version of Democracy, we merely vote for a particular candidate in our electorate! 

*Btw. The Queen's Speech is part of the opening for each Parliamentary Session and outlines proposed legislation for that session. As such, it may not include everything in even an outright winning Party's Manifesto, simply those parts the Government proposes for that Session*!
		
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...and usually tries to include the tricky or contentious stuff in it's first QS - when it (normally) has broad majority support in parliament and across the country.  May's first QS could be a very sparse and bland beast.


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2017)

Our problem is the celebritisation of politics. 

Neither the PM or JC does not fit the celebrity . Without 'attractive'  strong personalities the media  was able to run a largely negative witch hunt on everyone. The government had some basic truths which they wrongly chose to share. Their PR was flawed and the population didn't like being told they were living beyond their means - surprised. The opposition was 'underdog' who was fully aware that there was zero chance of winning so simply promised everything in the full knowledge that they would not have to implement and no chance of being judged. This gave the media what they craved - a personality contest between the nasty PM and the nice JC. Luckily for JC his cupboard skeletons were old enough that many voters do not remember the IRA etc so it didn't matter and suddenly the media's 'village' idiot of a month ago became the new saviour with new tablets of stone and a fairy tale of being nice to everyone.

In the resulting popularity contest 'nice' promises scored heavily and, no surprise, the truth about the facts of life lost out

In addition the Brexit vote influenced the liberal elite of London who switched sides.

The entirely predictable narrow result is the consequence and, like other so-called mature democracies, of the 'two headed' fight which involves more than two choices is confusing.

You can't put the genie of the Internet and arrogant self-opinionated talking-heads of the media back in the bottle. 

In future elections the system will be lucky to shake off the marginal results - look forward to more coalition governments


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You will see my quote, It only mentioned my feeling that these petitions are a waste of time.   I have not answered the question on the DUP and Conservatives as I have no idea if they will reach an agreement and what the terms would be. Ask me again after they have one if you like and I will be glad to oblige.
		
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Ok, so what you're saying is that you are only willing to voice opinion on things/events that have already happened? Can I have your word on that? I'm betting that the forum would be a much quieter place if true...

In the spirit of Mr Dimbleby I'll persist....

What is your opinion on the proposed coalition between the Tories and the DUP? If you refuse to answer (as is your right) then I'll officially give up asking this time


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## chrisd (Jun 12, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			That's an ever-present consequence of 'UK Democracy'! Whatever is in a Party's Manifesto is only able to be committed to if that Party has an overall majority! Any deals made in order to 'rule' trump rolleyes manifesto 'promises'! It's unreasonable, imo, to deem such deals 'broken promises'! Waiting 5 years (or perhaps less! ) to boot out the elected Party (in a coalition) that failed to implement a particular manifesto item is no different to waiting the same period because one prefers another Party to govern in the first place!

After all, we don't actually 'vote for the Party' in he first place! In UK's version of Democracy, we merely vote for a particular candidate in our electorate! 

Btw. The Queen's Speech is part of the opening for each Parliamentary Session and outlines proposed legislation for that session. As such, it may not include everything in even an outright winning Party's Manifesto, simply those parts the Government proposes for that Session!
		
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Just a few points

A party with no overall majority can try and govern as a minority Government

Although, yes you do vote for a local MP, a percentage of the electorate vote for the party and it's policies etc without necessarily knowing who the candidate is

Waiting 5 years to change of government you dont like is entirely different than waiting 5 years to change one you voted for that didnt do what it promised that enticed your vote

I do understand how the Queen's Speech works, after all I've heard plenty!


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 12, 2017)

drdel said:



			Our problem is the celebritisation of politics. 

Neither the PM or JC does not fit the celebrity . Without 'attractive'  strong personalities the media  was able to run a largely negative witch hunt on everyone. The government had some basic truths which they wrongly chose to share. Their PR was flawed and the population didn't like being told they were living beyond their means - surprised. The opposition was 'underdog' who was fully aware that there was zero chance of winning so simply promised everything in the full knowledge that they would not have to implement and no chance of being judged. This gave the media what they craved - a personality contest between the nasty PM and the nice JC. Luckily for JC his cupboard skeletons were old enough that many voters do not remember the IRA etc so it didn't matter and suddenly the media's 'village' idiot of a month ago became the new saviour with new tablets of stone and a fairy tale of being nice to everyone.

In the resulting popularity contest 'nice' promises scored heavily and, no surprise, the truth about the facts of life lost out

In addition the Brexit vote influenced the liberal elite of London who switched sides.

The entirely predictable narrow result is the consequence and, like other so-called mature democracies, of the 'two headed' fight which involves more than two choices is confusing.

You can't put the genie of the Internet and arrogant self-opinionated talking-heads of the media back in the bottle. 

In future elections the system will be lucky to shake off the marginal results - look forward to more coalition governments
		
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You seem to be confusing a leader who can connect and resonate with people with someone who is nice.  You seem to be confusing a party who had a manifesto that actually stood for something (whether people liked it or not is a different matter, but at least there was substance to it) instead of one containing vague mostly meaningless statements, with a party that is nice. And as for the media wanting a 'nice' Corbyn then Christ on a bike, did you see the increasingly hysterical headlines from every right wing paper desperately trying to do a hatchet job on him? You think they were portraying him as 'nice'???

Please read just about any paper/web site as most of them have a very good summary of why Corbyn resonated so well and TMay was an electoral liability and their campaign was a relative disaster. And spoiler alert, there's no mention of him doing so well as he's nice or TMay being 'nasty'.   

But it would actually be great of the Tories continued putting their head in the sand and put it down to Corbyn being nice as that means they will never learn.  Which should see them out of power sooner rather than later.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, so what you're saying is that you are only willing to voice opinion on things/events that have already happened? Can I have your word on that? I'm betting that the forum would be a much quieter place if true...

In the spirit of Mr Dimbleby I'll persist....

What is your opinion on the proposed coalition between the Tories and the DUP? If you refuse to answer (as is your right) then I'll officially give up asking this time 

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First: I don't understand why you are asking me the question, I haven't expressed any opinion on the subject yet so why do you wish me to have one?   I could ask your opinion on Cartesian Dualism but would have to accept that you may not have one even if I did.    Secondly: I am not saying I only have opinions on things that have happened, I may well have an opinion on whether the England RU team will win the next World Cup but on the other hand may not be at all interested in who may win this years Bog Snortleing championships.  Regarding whether the Conservatives and DUP can work out a way to work together for the good of the country, I will just wait and see what they come up with first.

Hope that helps.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			First: I don't understand why you are asking me the question, I haven't expressed any opinion on the subject yet so why do you wish me to have one?   I could ask your opinion on Cartesian Dualism but would have to accept that you may not have one even if I did.    Secondly: I am not saying I only have opinions on things that have happened, I may well have an opinion on whether the England RU team will win the next World Cup but on the other hand may not be at all interested in who may win this years Bog Snortleing championships.  Regarding whether the Conservatives and DUP can work out a way to work together for the good of the country, I will just wait and see what they come up with first.

Hope that helps.
		
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You are going to extreme lengths to avoid offering your opinion. No worries. I don't remember people being too reticent about offering opinions on JC's meetings with groups with terrorist links. Probably a completely different thing though :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

bluewolf said:





You are going to extreme lengths to avoid offering your opinion. No worries. I don't remember people being too reticent about offering opinions on JC's meetings with groups with terrorist links. Probably a completely different thing though :thup:
		
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Maybe people did, I cant recall me having an opinion on it.  You may be surprised by this but I dont hold opinions on everything.


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## bluewolf (Jun 12, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe people did, I cant recall me having an opinion on it.  You may be surprised by this but I dont hold opinions on everything. 

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Cool. By the lack of responses from anyone else I'll have to accept that no one else has an opinion on this coalition either. Curiouser and curiouser. Maybe the forum is taking a turn towards maturity


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Cool. By the lack of responses from anyone else I'll have to accept that no one else has an opinion on this coalition either. Curiouser and curiouser. Maybe the forum is taking a turn towards maturity 

Click to expand...

I probably will have one when I understand what it is.


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## bluewolf (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I probably will have one when I understand what it is.
		
Click to expand...

That's never stopped anyone before


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			That's never stopped anyone before 

Click to expand...

Fair comment


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2017)

Well that was certainly was a good election to lose.
There was even speculation that Mayhem was deliberately trying to lose it.
Corbyn and Sturgeon can just sit on the sidelines and watch the disintegration of the UK unfold in front of them.

Long term losers Tories and UKIP.
Long term winners Socialist Labour. Jury is out on the SNP.
I am not unhappy happy with that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well that was certainly was a good election to lose.
There was even speculation that Mayhem was deliberately trying to lose it.
Corbyn and Sturgeon can just sit on the sidelines and watch the disintegration of the UK unfold in front of them.

Long term losers Tories and UKIP.
Long term winners Socialist Labour. Jury is out on the SNP.
I am not unhappy happy with that.
		
Click to expand...

Sturgeon and her party lost a great deal of votes and seats so clearly in the losers area and I expect will lose further seats at the next election as well. 

Maybe Sturgeon will realise now that a great deal amount of Scots are sick of hearing the referendum claims from her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I probably will have one when I understand what it is.
		
Click to expand...

Do you understand the issues and trouble that historically surrounded the Portadown/Drumcree Orange Walk - and hence why it was banned.  You will at least remember the chaos and violence surrounding it even if you did not understand the issues.

So what are your thoughts on the DUP taking on board the Orange Order request for lifting of the ban to be part of the negotiations with the Tories.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...h-negotiations-with-theresa-may-a7785026.html


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 13, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			Cool. By the lack of responses from anyone else I'll have to accept that no one else has an opinion on this coalition either. Curiouser and curiouser. Maybe the forum is taking a turn towards maturity 

Click to expand...

FWIW I think it's a bad idea and one that will probably come back to haunt the tories for years....


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## User62651 (Jun 13, 2017)

Even the Torygraph saying May needs to tread very very carefully with the proposed DUP tie in. 

By all accounts Arlene Foster is a tough cookie, an old hand in negotiating and must have a list of demands for PM, some of which must be tricky for May to meet and be seen to stay impartial to NI politics at the same time.

Anyone think they know what the demands for assistance from DUP will be and will they even make a deal? 
Wouldn't surprise me if the DUP walk away if an open border and freedom of movement arrangement with Ireland (an EU member state) is not guaranteed left intact as brexit talks start. If that open border is left in place how can there be other EU/UK borders that can be closed as hard brexiteers want? Cant see EU agreeing that, so that will leave us out of EU with no deal and EU nationals free to come to UK by travelling through Ireland. How do you stop that - border passport checks either on Ireland/NI border or on UK mainland airports and ferry terminals handling traffic from Ireland??

Complicated issues to resolve.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sturgeon and her party lost a great deal of votes and seats so clearly in the losers area and I expect will lose further seats at the next election as well. 

Maybe Sturgeon will realise now that a great deal amount of Scots are sick of hearing the referendum claims from her.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on what you call 'a great deal amount of Scots'

Going into Indyref1 The SNP had 30% support and a handful of MP's
They now have 40%+ support and 35 MP's.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Depends on what you call 'a great deal amount of Scots'

Going into Indyref1 The SNP had 30% support and a handful of MP's
They now have 40%+ support and 35 MP's.
		
Click to expand...

How much did they have at the last election.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Depends on what you call 'a great deal amount of Scots'

Going into Indyref1 The SNP had 30% support and a handful of MP's
They now have 40%+ support and 35 MP's.
		
Click to expand...

It's running round in circles though isn't it, all Political parties have support that rises and falls, sometimes because of themselves, sometimes because of the other parties.

You can play statistics all day and nobody and everybody will be correct.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How much did they have at the last election.
		
Click to expand...

The 2015 Election was a freak result on the back of Cameron introducing EVEL straight after Indyref1.

I have given my take on the election results earlier in this post.

You have to separate a Westminster election from a Scottish Independence referendum.......they are nothing like the same thing.

No multiple choice tactical voting in a Referendum......just a straight Yes or NO


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## User62651 (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



*The 2015 Election was a freak result on the back of Cameron introducing EVEL straight after Indyref1.*

I have given my take on the election results earlier in this post.

You have to separate a Westminster election from a Scottish Independence referendum.......they are nothing like the same thing.

No multiple choice tactical voting in a Referendum......just a straight Yes or NO
		
Click to expand...

Also important to note independence wasn't in the 2015 SNP GE manifesto (was indirectly in 2017) so people weren't voting for independence, it was more devolution being pushed in 2015. Definitely an anti Cameron/anti-austerity vote and punishment of Labour/LibDems for Tory collusion in coalition and indryref1 'better together' campaign.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you understand the issues and trouble that historically surrounded the Portadown/Drumcree Orange Walk - and hence why it was banned.  You will at least remember the chaos and violence surrounding it even if you did not understand the issues.

So what are your thoughts on the DUP taking on board the Orange Order request for lifting of the ban to be part of the negotiations with the Tories.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...h-negotiations-with-theresa-may-a7785026.html

Click to expand...

I thought my reply(ies) were quite clear.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Depends on what you call 'a great deal amount of Scots'

Going into Indyref1 The SNP had 30% support and a handful of MP's
They now have 40%+ support and 35 MP's.
		
Click to expand...

In reality they got 36.9% of the vote.


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## Old Skier (Jun 13, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			In reality they got 36.9% of the vote.
		
Click to expand...

Your nor highliting another maths problem are you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			In reality they got 36.9% of the vote.
		
Click to expand...

36.9%  in a Westminster election.
40%+ in the Independence polls.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Even the Torygraph saying May needs to tread very very carefully with the proposed DUP tie in. 

By all accounts Arlene Foster is a tough cookie, an old hand in negotiating and must have a list of demands for PM, some of which must be tricky for May to meet and be seen to stay impartial to NI politics at the same time.

Anyone think they know what the demands for assistance from DUP will be and will they even make a deal? 
Wouldn't surprise me if the DUP walk away if an open border and freedom of movement arrangement with Ireland (an EU member state) is not guaranteed left intact as brexit talks start. If that open border is left in place how can there be other EU/UK borders that can be closed as hard brexiteers want? Cant see EU agreeing that, so that will leave us out of EU with no deal and EU nationals free to come to UK by travelling through Ireland. How do you stop that - *border passport checks either on Ireland/NI border or on UK mainland airports and ferry terminals handling traffic from Ireland??*

Complicated issues to resolve.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think any proposed internal passport control would get far with the DUP.  I imagine that this will be one of the key pre-condition demands that the DUP make.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/fo...l-uk-passport-controls-after-brexit-1-7652277


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought my reply(ies) were quite clear.
		
Click to expand...

I don't recall an answer to my specific example as it is something that it appears the orange order will be seeking, so this is something real.

Or is this something that you have no opinion on.


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## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Your nor highliting another maths problem are you.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:


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## brendy (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you understand the issues and trouble that historically surrounded the Portadown/Drumcree Orange Walk - and hence why it was banned.  You will at least remember the chaos and violence surrounding it even if you did not understand the issues.

So what are your thoughts on the DUP taking on board the Orange Order request for lifting of the ban to be part of the negotiations with the Tories.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...h-negotiations-with-theresa-may-a7785026.html

Click to expand...

That request wont be on the table, if it is there will be no coalition. 
The DUP are not all crazed dinosaurs hell bent on most of the guff spouted about this past week. Our local guy is a decent man who doesnt mind getting his hands dirty in all aspects of improving the local area, sometimes upsetting the loyalist quarter. I voted for him though, not the DUP. He missed out on getting in narrowly but the gap between him and Lady Sylvia Herman (Indy, ex UUP) has closed right down no and Id bet money he overtakes her in the next election which will strengthen the party even more, whether that is a good thing or not.


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 13, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			36.9%  in a Westminster election.
40%+ in the Independence polls.
		
Click to expand...

Ok I see where you're coming from.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

brendy said:



			That request wont be on the table, if it is there will be no coalition. 
The DUP are not all crazed dinosaurs hell bent on most of the guff spouted about this past week. Our local guy is a decent man who doesnt mind getting his hands dirty in all aspects of improving the local area, sometimes upsetting the loyalist quarter. I voted for him though, not the DUP. He missed out on getting in narrowly but the gap between him and Lady Sylvia Herman (Indy, ex UUP) has closed right down no and Id bet money he overtakes her in the next election which will strengthen the party even more, whether that is a good thing or not.
		
Click to expand...

What happened to the UUP and SDLP?  Has the collapse of the Assembly pushed folks hard into one camp or the other.

On the SDLP side John Hume and Seamus Mallon seemed to offer a slightly less republican position - and that seems to have gone - or maybe it's just got lost


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## brendy (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What happened to the UUP and SDLP?  Has the collapse of the Assembly pushed folks hard into one camp or the other.

On the SDLP side John Hume and Seamus Mallon seemed to offer a slightly less republican position - and that seems to have gone - or maybe it's just got lost
		
Click to expand...

Yea SDLP, Alliance and UUP are nowhere to be seen now (given assembly is broken up currently). UUP tried to instruct voters to vote for UUP 1 and SDLP 2 in the last assembly election, political suicide.
This time round they (Alliance party ,SDLP and UUP) got zero seats which is a little shocking for some but it was coming. NI politics boils down to the same as the rest of the UK, the big 2 parties having the lions share, constant bitching at each other at every chance and if you look deep enough you'll find links to unsavouries.

This GE there were 18 NI seats for Westminister, DUP got 10, SF got 7 and Lady Hermon (North Down Constituency) 1.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

brendy said:



			Yea SDLP, Alliance and UUP are nowhere to be seen now (given assembly is broken up currently). UUP tried to instruct voters to vote for UUP 1 and SDLP 2 in the last assembly election, political suicide.
This time round they (Alliance party ,SDLP and UUP) got zero seats which is a little shocking for some but it was coming. NI politics boils down to the same as the rest of the UK, the big 2 parties having the lions share, constant bitching at each other at every chance and if you look deep enough you'll find links to unsavouries.

This GE there were 18 NI seats for Westminister, DUP got 10, SF got 7 and Lady Hermon (North Down Constituency) 1.
		
Click to expand...

Back in the bad old days (and surely to God we cannot forget the terrible pain and suffering of NI of these days) - the likes of Seamus Mallon, John Hume and David Trimble seemed to this young Glaswegian to talk a lot of sense.

What happens over the next 2yrs is so important - in fact I'd probably put Northern Ireland at the very top of my list to ensure the very best outcome - almost regardless of and, if needs be, over-riding the wishes of any Brextremists.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't recall an answer to my specific example as it is something that it appears the orange order will be seeking, so this is something real.

Or is this something that you have no opinion on.
		
Click to expand...

What are you asking me for, this is just silly now.  I have made no post on the subject so I don't understand why you think I need to state an opinion    Why dont you put your question to everyone on the Forum if you are interested in the subject.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What are you asking me for, this is just silly now.  I have made no post on the subject so I don't understand why you think I need to state an opinion    Why dont you put your question to everyone on the Forum if you are interested in the subject.
		
Click to expand...

That's fine.  I think you must be saying that there are some DUP demands that would make you want the Tories to refuse agreement with the DUP.

So for me - in the very unlikely event that Arlene Foster agrees to the request from the OO to put Drumcree on the negotiating table - I'd expect the Tories to refuse.  And if it stayed there - to walk away.

That said - I think that specific scenario is VERY unlikely.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's fine.  I think you must be saying that there are some DUP demands that would make you want the Tories to refuse agreement with the DUP.
		
Click to expand...

For crying out loud. I'm saying nothing, I will see what arrangements may come out of the talks and consider that.  I see no point in prevaricating on it.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 13, 2017)

&#129300;&#128514;


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## brendy (Jun 13, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 22931


&#129300;&#128514;
		
Click to expand...

You can't teach common sense though fella.
I think that voting comes down to the individuals circumstances, not a demographic.  There will be some patterns but you simply cannot draw a person in by education level.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 22931


&#63764;&#62978;
		
Click to expand...

Not this old cookie again    You're thick were clever


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## bluewolf (Jun 13, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Not this old cookie again    You're thick were clever 

Click to expand...

*We're clever.


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's fine.  I think you must be saying that there are some DUP demands that would make you want the Tories to refuse agreement with the DUP.

So for me - in the very unlikely event that Arlene Foster agrees to the request from the OO to put Drumcree on the negotiating table - I'd expect the Tories to refuse.  And if it stayed there - to walk away.

That said - I think that specific scenario is VERY unlikely.
		
Click to expand...

so you're telling someone what they're thinking!

Go on then, what number am I thinking right now?

Thats how ludicrous your post reads... unbelievable Jeff!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			so you're telling someone what they're thinking!

Go on then, what number am I thinking right now?

Thats how ludicrous your post reads... unbelievable Jeff!
		
Click to expand...

It is no different IMO from asking the hypothetical question about whether or not Corbyn would hit the red button as a result of the UK being subject to a first strike attack.  It is a hypothetical scenario - but one that has a likelihood ff actually coming about (albeit a very low probability).  Plenty of folks have opinions on whether he or indeed they would do that.

The Orange Order have been pressing AF to put Drumcree on the negotiating table.  It is a hypothetical scenario - but one that has a likelihood of actually coming about (albeit a very low probability).  It is however not unreasonable to ask May a similar question to that asked of Corbyn.  Were the hypothetical to come about - should Corbyn press the button?; should May walk away from the DUP?

If I 'take the 5th Amendment' and refuse to deny a misdemeanor, an implication that can be drawn is that I did it.  If I don't state that I think that May should walk away - an implication that can be drawn is that I think that she need not.  That's all.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



View attachment 22931


&#63764;&#62978;
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that stat mostly a reflection on the fact that older voters tend to vote Tory and younger voters tend to vote Labour? In the past most people left school and went into a trade or profession rather than going on to higher education. Now a much higher percentage of young people go to university and get degrees which is what that chart is showing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't that stat mostly a reflection on the fact that older voters tend to vote Tory and younger voters tend to vote Labour? In the past most people left school and went into a trade or profession rather than going on to higher education. Now a much higher percentage of young people go to university and get degrees which is what that chart is showing.
		
Click to expand...

Not really.  All the stats from this election showed is that Tory voters statistically were more likely to be older and less well educated (not necessarily a combination of both) in terms of measuring it by educational levels. And Labour voters were statistically more likely to be younger and have a higher level of educational achievement (again not necessarily a combination of both). It is not saying all Tory voters are thick old  people and all Labour voters are clever young people.


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really.  All the stats from this election showed is that Tory voters statistically were more likely to be older and less well educated (not necessarily a combination of both) in terms of measuring it by educational levels. And Labour voters were statistically more likely to be younger and have a higher level of educational achievement (again not necessarily a combination of both). It is not saying all Tory voters are thick old  people and all Labour voters are clever young people.
		
Click to expand...

Back in the 70's, of a school year intake of over 300 only 5 went on to uni. The opportunities to go to uni were very limited. But there were a plethora of Polys and technical colleges. Those Polys and technical colleges have become universities, with a significantly higher number of different degree courses available.

Just because many of the current crop of young people have degrees doesn't make them better educated than older people. Also, there's various equivalency tables that show that a number of degrees available today are on a par with some HND's/HNC's from yesteryear.

Then there's the modern apprenticeships that in some fields are quite poor compared to the 4 year apprenticeships available from 30 years ago. You'd be amazed at the number of HND and degree qualified electronics techs and engineers I've put through our selection process who can't wire a 13 amp plug, even with the instruction sheet they are given.

However, youngsters nowadays seem more rounded and worldly wise. They certainly communicate better at interview.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Back in the 70's, of a school year intake of over 300 only 5 went on to uni. The opportunities to go to uni were very limited. But there were a plethora of Polys and technical colleges. Those Polys and technical colleges have become universities, with a significantly higher number of different degree courses available.

Just because many of the current crop of young people have degrees doesn't make them better educated than older people. Also, there's various equivalency tables that show that a number of degrees available today are on a par with some HND's/HNC's from yesteryear.

Then there's the modern apprenticeships that in some fields are quite poor compared to the 4 year apprenticeships available from 30 years ago. You'd be amazed at the number of HND and degree qualified electronics techs and engineers I've put through our selection process who can't wire a 13 amp plug, even with the instruction sheet they are given.

However, youngsters nowadays seem more rounded and worldly wise. They certainly communicate better at interview.
		
Click to expand...

I recall being told in mid-1970s when doing my O-levels and Highers and thinking 'what next?' - that about 5% of Scottish school children went to university.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			*We're clever. 



Click to expand...

:whoo: tick and star in post.

Thick folk and 'nice but dims' vote right wing Tory/UKIP........I thought everyone knew that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2017)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-the-bus-stop-1/

Interesting political map.

[Disclaimer not the BBC weather map]


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Back in the 70's, of a school year intake of over 300 only 5 went on to uni. The opportunities to go to uni were very limited. But there were a plethora of Polys and technical colleges. Those Polys and technical colleges have become universities, with a significantly higher number of different degree courses available.

*Just because many of the current crop of young people have degrees doesn't make them better educated than older people*. Also, there's various equivalency tables that show that a number of degrees available today are on a par with some HND's/HNC's from yesteryear.

Then there's the modern apprenticeships that in some fields are quite poor compared to the 4 year apprenticeships available from 30 years ago. You'd be amazed at the number of HND and degree qualified electronics techs and engineers I've put through our selection process who can't wire a 13 amp plug, even with the instruction sheet they are given.

However, youngsters nowadays seem more rounded and worldly wise. They certainly communicate better at interview.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it does on a crude measure of your level of education.


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes it does on a crude measure of your level of education.
		
Click to expand...

Really? 

If you want to view it that simply because it helps your little yogurt knitting agenda, crack on.

There's some fantastic youngsters out there, but equally, note equally, there's some very worldly wise older people who run rings around some of the bits of paper wielding younger generation. Experience counts too, or aren't you that inclusive and tolerant? 

As to my level of education....I enjoy being thick.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 14, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Really? 

If you want to view it that simply because it helps your little yogurt knitting agenda, crack on.

There's some fantastic youngsters out there, but equally, note equally, there's some very worldly wise older people who run rings around some of the bits of paper wielding younger generation. Experience counts too, or aren't you that inclusive and tolerant? 

As to my level of education....I enjoy being thick.
		
Click to expand...

For a statistical measure educational attainment is defined as the highest level of education an individual has successfully completed. That's is not a yogurt knitting agenda, nothing to do with being tolerant, it is just the way they do the stats.

People can interpret it how they want, I'm not arguing about the comparison between o levels, GCSEs etc etc. The original post was a bit of statistical analysis using the standard measure of educational attainment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2017)

This coalition of chaos seems to be a long time in the making.

I recon marches and flags are sticking points.


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## brendy (Jun 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This coalition of chaos seems to be a long time in the making.

I recon marches and flags are sticking points.

Click to expand...

I thought they had agreed and were holding back a day or two in respect of the Grenfell tower disaster.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

brendy said:



			I thought they had agreed and were holding back a day or two in respect of the Grenfell tower disaster.
		
Click to expand...

Don't deny Doom with a chance to Troll!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2017)

Funny that as they are now saying that there is no time deadline to their talks.
[despite saying they won't talk about it for a couple of days]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40278371


Might be quite an interesting Queens speech.

'My government hopes it may'..........


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2017)

OFGS There is talk of May going begging to the Lieb Dems now.


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## shagster (Jun 15, 2017)

just a thought on the coalition of chaos
isn't the correct name for the Tory party the Conservative and unionist party, so it would only be natural for this coalition to happen


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OFGS There is talk of May going begging to the Lieb Dems now.

Click to expand...

Come on then, where did you get this from


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, where did you get this from 

Click to expand...

BBC 'the news were we are'........must be true then.:lol:


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC 'the news were we are'........must be true then.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

Lets see a link then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets see a link then.
		
Click to expand...

No............It was on the news where we are and not the news where you are


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No............It was on the news where we are and not the news where you are
		
Click to expand...

So its rubbish!


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So its rubbish!
		
Click to expand...

I searched for it.... no joy. Not surprised...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			So its rubbish!
		
Click to expand...

Never thought I would hear you saying that the BBC news is rubbish.
How times have changed.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Never thought I would hear you saying that the BBC news is rubbish.
How times have changed.
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to your imaginary BBC news.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 16, 2017)

My god, a perfect reason to avoid all things political on a forum. It's like kids in a playground.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 16, 2017)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My god, a perfect reason to avoid all things political on a forum. It's like kids in a playground.
		
Click to expand...

He started it:lol:


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OFGS There is talk of May going begging to the Lieb Dems now.

Click to expand...

I see the fisherman is still around.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I see the fisherman is still around.
		
Click to expand...

Good holiday mate?


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Good holiday mate?
		
Click to expand...

Cracker until late return with a broken aircraft and closed motorways. Get caught every time I come back. Two weeks of no golf the down side.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 16, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Cracker until late return with a broken aircraft and closed motorways. Get caught every time I come back. Two weeks of no golf the down side.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe check next time &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe check next time &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
		
Click to expand...

Down side of living in the West Country. Have to fly from colder climes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 17, 2017)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-attainment-gap/#comments

This provoked a wry smile.......the three 'dunces' who were only too willing to highlight the SNP school failings in maths.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2017)

The only dunces are those that are involved in the wings blog . Not even worthy of a click on the link.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm retiring from this thread (for the time being) - because it appears that on this political thread, as with others, some here are fed up with me simply stating my point of view. A pov that is not simply mine concocted in my garden shed (if I had one) but a pov expressed by very many much better informed than I or (I might suggest) most on this forum.  

I am sorry that you have got fed up sufficient to complain; that you did not like what I said, or indeed if you thought it was just rubbish and not worthy of space on this forum - but I am not sorry for expressing the views I have.


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## Fish (Jun 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm retiring from this thread (for the time being) - because it appears that on this political thread, as with others, *some here are fed up with me simply stating my point of view*. A pov that is not simply mine concocted in my garden shed (if I had one) but a pov expressed by very many much better informed than I or (I might suggest) most on this forum.  

I am sorry that you have got fed up sufficient to complain; *that you did not like what I said*, or indeed if you thought it was just rubbish and not worthy of space on this forum - *but I am not sorry for expressing the views I have*.
		
Click to expand...

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is the problem!!


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## bluewolf (Jun 19, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm retiring from this thread (for the time being) - because it appears that on this political thread, as with others, some here are fed up with me simply stating my point of view. A pov that is not simply mine concocted in my garden shed (if I had one) but a pov expressed by very many much better informed than I or (I might suggest) most on this forum.  

I am sorry that you have got fed up sufficient to complain; that you did not like what I said, or indeed if you thought it was just rubbish and not worthy of space on this forum - but I am not sorry for expressing the views I have.
		
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People have actually complained???? Holy crap!! Really?? 

Quite possibly the most pathetic thing I've read in weeks. I will assume that these "people" have made the same complaint about several other people as well, because if they haven't then it looks like they've actually complained about someone's right to hold a different viewpoint, rather than the incredibly repetitive way it has been communicated....


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

bluewolf said:



			People have actually complained???? Holy crap!! Really?? 

*Quite possibly the most pathetic thing I've read in weeks.* I will assume that these "people" have made the same complaint about several other people as well, because if they haven't then it looks like they've actually complained about someone's right to hold a different viewpoint, rather than the incredibly repetitive way it has been communicated....
		
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and that is including the Tory manifesto..... Boom!  (I assume someone will complain about me now)


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## drdel (Jun 19, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			and that is including the Tory manifesto..... Boom!  (I assume someone will *complain about me *now)
		
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Now there's a thought.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 19, 2017)

drdel said:



			Now there's a thought.
		
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Don't worry, you won't be the 1st.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2017)

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...conservative-uk-government-minister-scotland/

Democracy Tory style........fails to get elected.......... immediately made a Lord.......now Viceroy of Scotland ahead of 12 elected MP's


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2017)

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1391699-dup-talks-not-going-as-expected-and-deal-not-imminent/

I thought Mayhem said all was hunky dory with the DUP coalition 10 days ago.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 21, 2017)

Lots 'missing' from Queenies speech...

Nothing on 'dementia tax' or means testing of WFA or anything related to pensions or pensioners in fact...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2017)

Mayhem is being humble.:lol:


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2017)

Few weeks back prior to the GE I am sure I read a lot about it being preferable to have a strong opposition rather than one party with a large majority.  Maybe all those posters changed their mind?


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2017)

Yvettee Cooper on TV, " The Conservatives did not win the general election". Have they changed the system.

D Abbott school of maths.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Yvettee Cooper on TV, " The Conservatives did not win the general election". Have they changed the system.

D Abbott school of maths.
		
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You know you do seem a bit obsessed with Ms Abbott.  I think the man doth protest too much...

As for the tories winning then depends on the definition of 'win'. If you purely define it as a greater number of seats than the other parties have individually then yes they won.  If you define it as having a majority government so you can push forwards with your manifesto, be seen as strong in your discussions with brexit, the PM not to be seen as on borrowed time and not a person that will lead the party into the next election and and being in a better position than you were before the election that you did need to call, then probably no, they did not achieve any of the objectives.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 21, 2017)

IainP said:



			Few weeks back prior to the GE I am sure I read a lot about it being preferable to have a strong opposition rather than one party with a large majority.  Maybe all those posters changed their mind?
		
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No, you can have a strong opposition to a party that does have a majority. Strong is not purely defined as numbers of MPs, there are many other factors that define a party or leader as strong.

For example TMay has more MPs, but I'd not overly define her position as very strong. Or stable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2017)

IainP said:



			Few weeks back prior to the GE I am sure I read a lot about it being preferable to have a strong opposition rather than one party with a large majority.  Maybe all those posters changed their mind?
		
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Very true....... There is nothing so scary as an out of control Tory government.
They are a couple of rebel UDP/Tory MP's votes away from an election.
This should be a fun watch for the next few months as the egos go into overdrive.

We now have the very thin blue line.


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## Old Skier (Jun 21, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			You know you do seem a bit obsessed with Ms Abbott.  I think the man doth protest too much...

As for the tories winning then depends on the definition of 'win'. If you purely define it as a greater number of seats than the other parties have individually then yes they won.  If you define it as having a majority government so you can push forwards with your manifesto, be seen as strong in your discussions with brexit, the PM not to be seen as on borrowed time and not a person that will lead the party into the next election and and being in a better position than you were before the election that you did need to call, then probably no, they did not achieve any of the objectives.
		
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Not sure were I become obsessed but if that's the way of the TM obssesives so be it. If truth be know, we've all choosen our favourite pantomime villian.


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## IainP (Jun 21, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			No, you can have a strong opposition to a party that does have a majority. Strong is not purely defined as numbers of MPs, there are many other factors that define a party or leader as strong.

For example TMay has more MPs, but I'd not overly define her position as very strong. Or stable.

Click to expand...

Am sure there is a point being made here, but not too clear what it is. 

a) You do not think there is a strong opposition right now?
b) You are less happy now that the conservatives do not have a majority, than you would have been if they had?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2017)

It looks like Â£2m is the ransom note from the DUP to prop up Mayhem's shoogly peg.


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## Hobbit (Jun 21, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It looks like Â£2m is the ransom note from the DUP to prop up Mayhem's shoogly peg.
		
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Thought it was Â£2bn...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Thought it was Â£2bn...
		
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Of course it was ....sorry brain fart.:lol:

Millions, Billions, Trillions I am like The Chancellor, it get confusing at times.


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## Old Skier (Jun 22, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Thought it was Â£2bn...
		
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It's a maths thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2017)

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/06/the-tipping-point/

Very good summary of present day UK politics by Craig Murray with some insightful posts to follow.

Actors playing politicians rung a bell with me.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Yvettee Cooper on TV, " The Conservatives did not win the general election". Have they changed the system.

D Abbott school of maths.
		
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If having to form an orderly queue to kiss Arlene's butt cheeks counts as a win then yes then the boys 'n girls [in blue] have the right to claim a victory... Whether that's any good for the rest of us remains to be seen...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2017)

If the Tory party failed to gain a majority at Westminster they clearly did not win the election.
Just like the SNP with the Holyrood elections.

One of those facts seems difficult for a couple of posters to understand and one quite easy:lol:


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## drdel (Jun 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If the Tory party failed to gain a majority at Westminster they clearly did not win the election.
Just like the SNP with the Holyrood elections.

One of those facts seems difficult for a couple of posters to understand and one quite easy:lol:
		
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Warped thinking sir. The Tories won more stats than any other Party. Getting a 'majority' is merely a decision mechanism not a mathematical fact.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Jun 22, 2017)

drdel said:



			Warped thinking sir. The Tories won more stats than any other Party. Getting a 'majority' is merely a decision mechanism not a mathematical fact.
		
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What's that quote, lies, damned lies and statistics?

In my head, nobody won this election. The Tories lost the least, but noone anywhere is calling it a victory.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2017)

drdel said:



			Warped thinking sir. The Tories won more stats than any other Party. Getting a 'majority' is merely a decision mechanism not a mathematical fact.
		
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Really, in my wee brain if a party fails to win a majority in an election they have failed. Clue is the word fail.

All of the parties failed. There were no 'winners'.


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## drdel (Jun 22, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, in my wee brain if a party fails to win a majority in an election they have failed. Clue is the word fail.

All of the parties failed. There were no 'winners'.
		
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Sorry 'Autotext' turned "seats" to 'Stats.

So if "...in your wee brain..." the *fact* that the Conservative obtained 318 seats and the next closest party only 262 seats means the Tories lost does suggest its pretty small! It would be interesting to see how your Scorecard reads


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2017)

drdel said:



			Sorry 'Autotext' turned "seats" to 'Stats.

So if "...in your wee brain..." the *fact* that the Conservative obtained 318 seats and the next closest party only 262 seats means the Tories lost does suggest its pretty small! It would be interesting to see how your Scorecard reads

Click to expand...

Oh dear, you seem to have taken over SR's mantle......for the sake of sanity I think we should agree to disagree.:lol:


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## IainP (Jun 23, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			...

As for the tories winning then depends on the definition of 'win'. If you purely define it as a greater number of seats than the other parties have individually then yes they won.  If you define it as having a majority government so you can push forwards with your manifesto, be seen as strong in your discussions with brexit, the PM not to be seen as on borrowed time and not a person that will lead the party into the next election and and being in a better position than you were before the election that you did need to call, then probably no, they did not achieve any of the objectives.
		
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CheltenhamHacker said:



			What's that quote, lies, damned lies and statistics?

In my head, nobody won this election. The Tories lost the least, but noone anywhere is calling it a victory.
		
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I think the politicians begin being misleading with phrases and then others follow. I don't really really think we can re-define the English language like HK is maybe suggesting, and CH above seems closer. You can define the terms of the contest.

I'd suggest a contest/race etc with a result can have two or three outcomes. Win/lose/draw  (draw is sometimes not allowed.

Did Jeremy Corbyn win his constituency election/seat - yes he won.
Did Theresa May win her constituency election/seat - yes she won.

Once you move it up to GE level, then it is no longer about individuals (although we acknowledge the influence), so it is about parties and seats, and the question most likely moves to "Does any party have an absolute majority of seats?". This is a Yes/No response, not a Win/lose/draw.
The answer of course is no.

Is the concept if winning/losing even relevant to a GE then?
You could argue no. But if it is then it will have to about number of seats or numbers of votes.

My 2 pence worth.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2017)

DUP/Tory alliance to form the new UK Government.

Everyone happy with that ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2017)

Where the hell has Â£1Billion been found in these times of austerity?


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## jp5 (Jun 26, 2017)

Wow, seems like the magic money tree has been found.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 26, 2017)

They bribed Scotland to win the Independence vote, they have just bribed N.Ireland to win the DUP. England and Wales are feeling pretty left out


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Where the hell has Â£1Billion been found in these times of austerity?
		
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Kick in the Barnett Formula agreement and it will probably exceed Â£3 Billion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 26, 2017)

Can you imagine the outrage if Corbyn had promised a billion to Scotland to do a deal.


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## Kellfire (Jun 26, 2017)

If the DUP spend the Â£1b on promoting creationism and blocking abortion legislation... oh boy.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			If the DUP spend the Â£1b on promoting creationism and blocking abortion legislation... oh boy.
		
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Prejudging?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2017)

Short term desperate measures to do anything to keep the Tories in power, not worrying about the long term impact of driving our nation even further apart and even more division.  You would have hoped to see some sort of ideological compromise and coalition, some way of working out the best way to go forwards for all.  Not just a billion pound bung to one of the countries to keep them sweet, price of everything but the value of nothing. Not like the Tories to do that is it....


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## Kellfire (Jun 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Prejudging?
		
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I've witnessed plenty of DUP decisions in my time. I know what to expect.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			I've witnessed plenty of DUP decisions in my time. I know what to expect.
		
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And things will never move forward whilst there are people on both sides of the divide who are set in their ways. You may well be right but who would ever have thought they'd see the day when Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness would sit across the table from each other.


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## Kellfire (Jun 26, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And things will never move forward whilst there are people on both sides of the divide who are set in their ways. You may well be right but who would ever have thought they'd see the day when Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness would sit across the table from each other.
		
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Agreed, and Paisley is seen by many DUP supporters as a turncoat and an enemy of Northern Ireland because of it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2017)

That works out at an additional Â£800 extra per person in NI......some bribe.
Tories say it is 'outside' of the Barnett agreement so Wales and Scotland get zilch.

I am pretty sure that the Scottish and Welsh voters who switched to Tory at the election will be going homeward to think again.

For many voters this agreement will hang about like a bad smell for the next 50 years.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear, you seem to have taken over SR's mantle......for the sake of sanity I think we should agree to disagree.:lol:
		
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Absolutely not.  I wouldn't suggest you have a 'Wee Brain' It's much smaller than that :thup:


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2017)

Well looking on the bright side at least austerity is over in one of the 4 countries in the United Kingdom, or Kingdom as it will probably be known as soon the way it is going.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 26, 2017)

I think it's time that everyone calmed down re NI having a Billion quid sent over in Brown envelopes. If it helps you sleep, just imagine that it is only one Billion of the Billions that this and Labour Governments have robbed from Tashyboys Mineworkers pension fund. &#128077;&#128544;
Not cost Joe public a penny then. Sorted.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well looking on the bright side at least austerity is over in one of the 4 countries in the United Kingdom, or Kingdom as it will probably be known as soon the way it is going.
		
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Austerity! what austerity is that then?  Surely we are not in austerity if we are still borrowing so that we can spend more than we earn.


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## GG26 (Jun 26, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			Short term desperate measures to do anything to keep the Tories in power, not worrying about the long term impact of driving our nation even further apart and even more division.  You would have hoped to see some sort of ideological compromise and coalition, some way of working out the best way to go forwards for all.  Not just a billion pound bung to one of the countries to keep them sweet, price of everything but the value of nothing. Not like the Tories to do that is it....  

Click to expand...

So Labour wouldn't have given a penny to the Scots for Nicola Sturgeon's support?  She wouldn't have given that for nothing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

GG26 said:



			So Labour wouldn't have given a penny to the Scots for Nicola Sturgeon's support?  She wouldn't have given that for nothing.
		
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Labour would not have had to give any money.
The SNP was already committed to working in an anti Tory progressive alliance for the good of the country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour would not have had to give any money.
The SNP was already committed to working in an anti Tory progressive alliance for the good of the country.
		
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Turn this around and imagine what your thoughts would be if Corbyn had done the same DUP deal as May to gain power.

OOPS talking to myself again , should have been an edit to last post.


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## Old Skier (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour would not have had to give any money.
The SNP was already committed to working in an anti Tory progressive alliance for the good of the country.
		
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Strange post about a party that has no interest in the good of the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2017)

GG26 said:



			So Labour wouldn't have given a penny to the Scots for Nicola Sturgeon's support?  She wouldn't have given that for nothing.
		
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And if my auntie had a .......  but she hasn't. It is purely hypothetical, I have no idea what kind of deal would have been done but I am sure there would have been some kind of compromise.  Look, I actually quite like coalitions, I like it when parties have to work together to find some common ground as I feel collaboration and compromise at times is a good thing to do in politics instead of forging ahead with increasingly right or left wing agendas. I quite liked the way the lib dems kept the conservatives in check and a bit more honest when they were together. 

However this is purely a cash for votes agreement, the Tories are giving the middle finger to all the nurses, teachers and public service workers who have seen their wages stagnate in the name of austerity.  But suddenly there's a billion quid to throw at the DUP just to get 10 votes.  And that's without taking into account the consequences for the NI peace agreement or the rather questionable stance some of the DUP members have on a few issues such as creationism and homosexuality. May be the DUP will ensure the tories do not go full hard Brexit, full privatisation of the NHS, full slashing of the welfare state and fair play to the DUP for negotiating it. But the way they literally came out of the negotiations and then stated as bold as brass 'we did this because they gave us a billion quid' kind of makes your heart sink.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

I was always under the impression that the buying of political votes was illegal in the UK.

It was something that went on in tin pot corrupt  countries.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2017)

And, some still believe the tory boys 'n girls won the day...

Well, I suppose they have... As long as you ignore how much of our money they've spent in doing so...


#embarrassing


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

Nicola making a statement at 2.20pm today re.2017 Election.
I sense a legal challenge to the DUP/Tory deal is afoot.


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola making a statement at 2.20pm today re.2017 Election.
I sense a legal challenge to the DUP/Tory deal is afoot.
		
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2:20pm statememt is about Indyref2, is she planning to legally challenge herself?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

ger147 said:



			2:20pm statememt is about Indyref2, is she planning to legally challenge herself?
		
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Not according to her Twitter account, 'the way forward after the 2017 Election'


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not according to her Twitter account, 'the way forward after the 2017 Election'
		
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Aye, that means what is she gonna do about Indyref2.

Where on earth do you get legally challenging the TM DUP deal from that tweet???


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Here is the statement story...

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Scottish independence: Nicola Sturgeon to make indyref2 statement - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40415457


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## Sweep (Jun 27, 2017)

Â£1 billion to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street? Bargain of the century!


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Â£1 billion to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street? Bargain of the century!
		
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Believe it's only stalling the inevitable...

it's almost as if the tory girls 'n boys don't know what to do next...


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## Sweep (Jun 27, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe it's only stalling the inevitable...

it's almost as if the tory girls 'n boys don't know what to do next...
		
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Stay in power.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Stay in power.
		
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I thought we held elections to decide that?


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## IanM (Jun 27, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought we held elections to decide that? 

Click to expand...

We do, and we did. The Party with the most seats gets to form a Government.  DO keep up


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Aye, that means what is she gonna do about Indyref2.

Where on earth do you get legally challenging the TM DUP deal from that tweet???
		
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I didn't.......I said 'I sense etc' [ie my thoughts on what it may be about.]


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			We do, and we did. The Party with the most seats gets to form a Government.  DO keep up
		
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But, to do so has come at great expense to the already hard pressed taxpayer...

Great move Ms May... NOT!


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I didn't.......I said 'I sense etc' [ie my thoughts on what it may be about.]
		
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It's been widely reported in advance what it's about i.e. Indyref2.

You need to work on your woman's intuition...


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## IanM (Jun 27, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			But, to do so has come at great expense to the already hard pressed taxpayer...

Great move Ms May... NOT!
		
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I didn't evaluate it, I just replied to the comment about us having Elections... 

That said, the other lot would have done exactly the same with whom ever would want to participate!  Funny how alliances with the DUP were fine when Labour tried it in 2010.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			I didn't evaluate it, I just replied to the comment about us having Elections... 

That said, the other lot would have done exactly the same with whom ever would want to participate!  Funny how alliances with the DUP were fine when Labour tried it in 2010.
		
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The issue I have is... That the good ship Tory has been telling us we are potless... Yet, when they spring a leak, they are able to find 1Bn [of our money] to keep themselves afloat... And, we are to feel grateful they did... No chance...


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## IanM (Jun 27, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			The issue I have is... That the good ship Tory has been telling us we are potless... Yet, when they spring a leak, they are able to find 1Bn [of our money] to keep themselves afloat... And, we are to feel grateful they did... No chance...
		
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Not an unreasonable position to take....  Governments always find extra cash (borrowing !) from somewhere when they need too.  I'd rather than spend it in N Ireland than keep funding arms and satellite programmes in countries with smaller deficits than us!

I saw a Tweet last night that said if it was keeping a Marxist, out of No 10 its well worth it!


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			Not an unreasonable position to take....  Governments always find extra cash (borrowing !) from somewhere when they need too.  I'd rather than spend it in N Ireland than keep funding arms and satellite programmes in countries with smaller deficits than us!

I saw a Tweet last night that said if it was keeping a Marxist, out of No 10 its well worth it!
		
Click to expand...


There's the thing they've used money we don't have to keep themselves in employment...

And, I'd rather have an honest Marxist than a dishonest tory in No10... 
We can't be broke one day and well able to afford a 1Bn the next...


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I didn't.......I said 'I sense etc' [ie my thoughts on what it may be about.]
		
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Sturgeon's statement given and nothing about a legal challenge to the TM DUP deal.

You can stand your lawyers down...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			Not an unreasonable position to take....  Governments always find extra cash (borrowing !) from somewhere when they need too.  *I'd rather than spend it in N Ireland than keep funding arms and satellite programmes in countries with smaller deficits than us!*

I saw a Tweet last night that said if it was keeping a Marxist, out of No 10 its well worth it!
		
Click to expand...

I think the argument is that it would have been better spent on the NHS, teachers etc if the money was available.  Not sure it was ever a straight call between funding arms in other counties or paying the DUP for their votes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Sturgeon's statement given and nothing about a legal challenge to the TM DUP deal.

You can stand your lawyers down...
		
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Calm down. I don't think my view on things is nationally important [yet] :lol:
I still think a legal challenge from somewhere to the DUP/Tory deal could be on the way.

OT.....Nicola setting the re-set button for Indyref2....quite wise IMO.


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## drdel (Jun 27, 2017)

The money goes into the system with about 40% paying wages which will be taken. Those wages will buy stuff with half of the purchases incurring vat. Etc.etc... 

It will provide much needed jobs in NI.


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## ger147 (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calm down. I don't think my view on things is nationally important [yet] :lol:
I still think a legal challenge from somewhere to the DUP/Tory deal could be on the way.

OT.....Nicola setting the re-set button for Indyref2....quite wise IMO.
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to keep thinking that if it makes you happy.

Btw, the next time you're shopping, you're out of straws...


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calm down. I don't think my view on things is nationally important [yet] :lol:
I still think a legal challenge from somewhere to the DUP/Tory deal could be on the way.

OT.....Nicola setting the re-set button for Indyref2....quite wise IMO.
		
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There wasn't a legal challenge to the Libdem coalition, with a hell of a lot more wheeling and dealing. Yes, this one is more blatant and distasteful. However, even non-DUP voters are seeing the spending as a positive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			We do, and we did. The Party with the most seats gets to form a Government.  DO keep up
		
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Pathetic, typical ignorant response by yourself. Troll


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Pathetic, typical ignorant response by yourself. Troll
		
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But he's right. The party that won the most seats, even when its not a majority, gets first call to form a govt. As distasteful and dangerous as it is in the terms of the possible damage to the Good Friday Agreement, what have they done wrong?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But he's right. The party that won the most seats, even when its not a majority, gets first call to form a govt. As distasteful and dangerous as it is in the terms of the possible damage to the Good Friday Agreement, what have they done wrong?
		
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Unfortunately Bri that's the second little dig in the past week, no issue with a straight answer, it's the childish after comments.

And sensibly answering the point, how many Tory or Labour voters would change their vote or spoil their paper if they knew who the deals would be done with, look how it affected the Liberal vote, almost wiped them out.


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## Foxholer (Jun 27, 2017)

IanM said:



			We do, and we did. The Party with the most seats gets to form a Government.  DO keep up
		
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Hobbit said:



			But he's right. The party that won the most seats, even when its not a majority, gets first call to form a govt....
		
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Er... No, that's NOT how it works! But *mostly* what happens!

http://www.parliament.uk/education/about-your-parliament/general-elections/

It's quite possible that 1 'minority' party could combine with another to form an overall majority! As could have happened (and Gordon Brown was rumoured to have attempted) in 2010.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 27, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But he's right. The party that won the most seats, even when its not a majority, gets first call to form a govt. As distasteful and dangerous as it is in the terms of the possible damage to the Good Friday Agreement,* what have they done wrong?*

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Legally and from a parliamentary precedent I expect nothing at all. Morally based on the way they have behaved then I suppose that depends where your moral compass points to.


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## chippa1909 (Jun 27, 2017)

They've done nothing wrong except failing to "sell" it in the right way...
WE'LL GIVE Â£1000,000,000 TO THE DUP INSTEAD OF THE NHS...written on the side of a bus would surely have done it.


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## USER1999 (Jun 28, 2017)

If the EU had granted 1bn to Northern Ireland, as an under funded region, and the UK had to stump up another bn as their share, would we all be so unhappy?

Just asking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2017)

That is not how it has worked though. It's an out and out bribe to retain power. No point trying to dress it up any other way.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			If the EU had granted 1bn to Northern Ireland, as an under funded region, and the UK had to stump up another bn as their share, would we all be so unhappy?

Just asking.
		
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If my auntie had a.......you can do this all day, if Labour had done the same deal with Sinn Fein would all those who do not seem able to criticise what the Tories have done have been so 'accepting'? 

It is all hypothetical and may I suggest a good deflection technique, I'd much rather see people comment on what happened rather than try and justify it by coming up with some made up situation that has and will not.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			If the EU had granted 1bn to Northern Ireland, as an under funded region, and the UK had to stump up another bn as their share, would we all be so unhappy?

Just asking.
		
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Pretty desperate deflection there Murph


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is not how it has worked though. It's an out and out bribe to retain power. No point trying to dress it up any other way.
		
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Or the Tories could have stepped aside and allowed Labour to form a govt of a persuasion they don't like. Is it a bribe or are the Tories buying 'services'...? Rather than measure politics just on what we see on the floor of the House, maybe more people need to see the workings of cross party committees. Horse trading goes on every day.



Hacker Khan said:



			If my auntie had a.......you can do this all day, if Labour had done the same deal with Sinn Fein would all those who do not seem able to criticise what the Tories have done have been so 'accepting'? 

It is all hypothetical and may I suggest a good deflection technique, I'd much rather see people comment on what happened rather than try and justify it by coming up with some made up situation that has and will not.
		
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Its politics. Whether the Tories/Labour or whoever decide to have an agreement with another legitimate party, just what is wrong with it?

And well done the DUP for getting an extra Â£1bn for Norn Ireland. That money will be spent on Northern Ireland, and not go into the DUP coffers. The people of Northern Ireland will benefit from it... Do I like it or agree with it? No, but that doesn't mean its morally wrong. Some people's moral compass has too fine a point.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2017)

Labour were only to willing to sign up the DUP when the previous coalition fudge up was being traded over. I presume that Labour supporters would have been happy with that.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Or the Tories could have stepped aside and allowed Labour to form a govt of a persuasion they don't like. Is it a bribe or are the Tories buying 'services'...? Rather than measure politics just on what we see on the floor of the House, maybe more people need to see the workings of cross party committees. Horse trading goes on every day.



Its politics. Whether the Tories/Labour or whoever decide to have an agreement with another legitimate party,* just what is wrong with it?
*
And well done the DUP for getting an extra Â£1bn for Norn Ireland. That money will be spent on Northern Ireland, and not go into the DUP coffers. The people of Northern Ireland will benefit from it... Do I like it or agree with it? No, but that doesn't mean its morally wrong. Some people's moral compass has too fine a point.
		
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I'd argue perception trumps the inner working of cross party committees. I do have a moral problem with having to make teaching staff redundant (which I have done) in the name of 'austerity' where as a billion extra is suddenly found (after all the magic money tree garbage the Tories were coming out with) on top of the half a billion that was already going, and will go to one region purely to prop up the government.  Absolutely no issues with money like this being spent but the way a region/country gets that money where as others do not, to me, is morally wrong. It is the process that sticks in my throat, not the fact that people in NI will have more to spend on public services and infrastructure.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2017)

I actually think parties should work together more, we would be a better country for it. Some of the cross party committees are first rate and do some very good work. Outside of the chamber, behind the scenes MP's with specific interests often work together even if they are from different parties. This deal is not about like minds working together though is it? If it was then it would be a political deal that was struck, about policy as the Lib Dem / Tory deal was. This is about money for NI, they have bought the votes. It cheapens the Conservatives, it permanently sullies TM. 

I'm sure Dennis Skinner will have a whole host of insults ready for TM during PMQ's. He should be very funny to listen to and the whole house will enjoy watching the Tories squirm because they all know on this occasion he is right.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Labour were only to willing to sign up the DUP when the previous coalition fudge up was being traded over. I presume that Labour supporters would have been happy with that.
		
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Yes Brown wrote to them to see if they could do a deal. That was as far as it got.  If it would have gone ahead and, whilst teachers were being made redundant and most public sector workers had got no pay rises for ages because we had no money, yet a lot of money would have suddenly been found to go to one region just to buy their votes then no, I do not believe I would have not been happy with it.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Labour were only to willing to sign up the DUP when the previous coalition fudge up was being traded over. I presume that Labour supporters would have been happy with that.
		
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It's not the coalition I have issue with... It's the 1Bn that's being handed over to secure it... We've either got plenty of cash to play with or we haven't the proverbial pot to pee in... Which is it???

Plenty of tory boys 'n girls saying there was no need for the cash as DUP would've voted with them anyway...


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue perception trumps the inner working of cross party committees. I do have a moral problem with having to make teaching staff redundant (which I have done) in the name of 'austerity' where as a billion extra is suddenly found (after all the magic money tree garbage the Tories were coming out with) on top of the half a billion that was already going, and will go to one region purely to prop up the government.  Absolutely no issues with money like this being spent but the way a region/country gets that money where as others do not, to me, is morally wrong. It is the process that sticks in my throat, not the fact that people in NI will have more to spend on public services and infrastructure.
		
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Morals 'v' expediency is a difficult one to reconcile. Idealism can get in the way of what is actually achievable. Is it right to spend x on Trident and 2 new carriers but cut the disabled workers programme? Is it possible to have both, but in smaller formats?

I don't envy you in having to lay staff off. I have had to lay off several staff in the last year, 4 in two weeks a month ago. It can come at a heavy price to the manager too. Sitting across from someone who has been married less than 2 weeks and is saving up for a house, and telling them they are no longer required... was it morally wrong to lay them off when the company doesn't have enough work, even though we're not making a loss - not much profit either.


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## IanM (Jun 28, 2017)

You know who runs the media when the antidote to the Government that left a note saying "sorry we spent all the money" gets branded "Austerity!"


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2017)

IanM said:



			You know who runs the media when the antidote to the Government that left a note saying "sorry we spent all the money" gets branded "Austerity!" 

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Every outgoing Chancellor, going back many years, has left tongue in cheek notes. This one, unfortunately, has been used as a political weapon even though its now 7 years ago... too many people being too literal about so many things.


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## IanM (Jun 28, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Every outgoing Chancellor, going back many years, has left tongue in cheek notes. This one, unfortunately, has been used as a political weapon even though its now 7 years ago... too many people being too literal about so many things.
		
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True, trouble is that the bank statements and golf reserves docket said the same thing! :whoo:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2017)

IanM said:



			True, trouble is that the bank statements and golf reserves docket said the same thing! :whoo:
		
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Bet they didn't


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## IanM (Jun 28, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bet they didn't

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Sadly, the gold cupboard is indeed empty as Mr Broon offloaded it at the bottom of the market.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2017)

IanM said:



			You know who runs the media when the antidote to the Government that left a note saying "sorry we spent all the money" gets branded "Austerity!" 

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The reason they are branded the austerity party is because David Cameron said in a Keynote speech _ 'The age of irresponsibility is giving way to the age of austerity_.' http://conservative-speeches.sayit.mysociety.org/speech/601367  . His chancellor at the time George Osborne then started to introduce 'austerity' programs in the budget to cut public spending that have continued to this day. Hence the reason they are branded the party of austerity, the called themselves that. It is not a conspiracy by the lefties at the BBC.


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## IanM (Jun 28, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			The reason they are branded the austerity party is because David Cameron said in a Keynote speech _ 'The age of irresponsibility is giving way to the age of austerity_.' http://conservative-speeches.sayit.mysociety.org/speech/601367  . His chancellor at the time George Osborne then started to introduce 'austerity' programs in the budget to cut public spending that have continued to this day. Hence the reason they are branded the party of austerity, the called themselves that. It is not a conspiracy by the lefties at the BBC.
		
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Good recall!  Should have said "Tory Cuts!"


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2017)

IanM said:



			Sadly, the gold cupboard is indeed empty as Mr Broon offloaded it at the bottom of the market.
		
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Aye but what aboot the 'Golf reserves docket cupboard'.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2017)

Hacker Khan said:



			The reason they are branded the austerity party is because David Cameron said in a Keynote speech _ 'The age of irresponsibility is giving way to the age of austerity_.' http://conservative-speeches.sayit.mysociety.org/speech/601367  . His chancellor at the time George Osborne then started to introduce 'austerity' programs in the budget to cut public spending that have continued to this day. Hence the reason they are branded the party of austerity, the called themselves that. It is not a conspiracy by the lefties at the BBC.
		
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Where does it say "we are the austerity party"? Who would give themselves such a negative name? That's just spin on your part.

The depth and breadth of those cuts have gone too far in some areas, and maybe they could have cut spending more slowly or looked to other areas to make the saving. But they didn't brand themselves as the austerity party. 

I don't like what they've done, and are doing, and I won't vote for them at present but I prefer to deal in facts when it comes to giving them labels.


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## IanM (Jun 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye but what aboot the 'Golf reserves docket cupboard'.

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ho ho...just spotted the initial typo... more golf than gold in my cupboards too!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye but what aboot the 'Golf reserves docket cupboard'.

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I used to read loads of reports and it is amazing how many folk mis-type gold for golf.
It also gets missed in many golf publications.

I seem to be on default mode for spotting it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2017)

That's the Tories voting to retain the PS cap.
Sobering thought is that they would not have won the vote without their 13 Scottish MP's.

That would be the same 13 politicians, led by Colonel Davidson, who were recently making loud noises about the Scottish Government's cap on nurses pay, allegedly forcing some of them to use food banks.
[note..... Scottish nurses are on higher salary levels than nurses in rUK]


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That's the Tories voting to retain the PS cap.
Sobering thought is that they would not have won the vote without their 13 Scottish MP's.

That would be the same 13 politicians, led by Colonel Davidson, who were recently making loud noises about the Scottish Government's cap on nurses pay, allegedly forcing some of them to use food banks.
[note..... Scottish nurses are on higher salary levels than nurses in rUK]
		
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Your prejudices sometimes trip you up. What about the SNP MPs in parliament that supported Jeezer yesterday in an increase on public sector pay while the SNP in Scotland rejected increases in nurses pay in Scotland.


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Your prejudices sometimes trip you up. What about the SNP MPs in parliament that supported Jeezer yesterday in an increase on public sector pay while the SNP in Scotland rejected increases in nurses pay in Scotland.
		
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And in today's news. Scotland are a week away from entering a recession, whilst the rest of the UK is showing growth... good old SNP... a drink in a brewery/organising.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 29, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			And in today's news. Scotland are a week away from entering a recession, whilst the rest of the UK is showing growth... good old SNP...
		
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No doubt the usual suspect will be along shortly to explain that it's not the fault of the SNP but is in fact the Tories fault.


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2017)

ColchesterFC said:



			No doubt the usual suspect will be along shortly to explain that it's not the fault of the SNP but is in fact the Tories fault.
		
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Oh, just imagine if it was a Tory led govt in Holyrood! There'd still be growth...


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## Stuart_C (Jun 29, 2017)

The cheers coming from the Tories as the results were announced from the vote on Public sector pay rise' was disgusting.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 29, 2017)

Made me chuckle  


'I have to admit that if Corbyn's Labour party were a football team, I would support them. After all, entrance would be free, pie and a pint would be free, you could religiously chant the manager's name whilst screaming that the opposition were scum. You would know that every game would end in a glorious victory even if the other team scored more goals. To cap it off, you could go home and watch Match of the Day in the secure knowledge that however badly the team had played the BBC would edit the highlights to make them look brilliant.'


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## ger147 (Jun 30, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			The cheers coming from the Tories as the results were announced from the vote on Public sector pay rise' was disgusting.
		
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It's standard practice after every vote in the HoC to cheer, wave order papers etc.

You are of course free to find it disgusting but in HoC terms it's a daily occurence from the winning side no matter the subject of the vote.


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