# Nani red card!



## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

Anyone watching? That's the softest straight red I think I have ever seen!! Manure looked quite good up until now, would be amazed if thy go through now... One from ronaldo and Ramos to make p for his og to come!


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 5, 2013)

*Nani Red Card*

Please delete dupliacated post


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 5, 2013)

its unbelievable!!!! GOING TO BE A LONG 30 MINS!


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## kev_off_the_tee (Mar 5, 2013)

It was a booking but certainly not a red. 

As a Geordie, as much as it pains me to say this I think Man Utd can still do this. Think English


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## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh I'm a Liverpool fan, and to be fair if there is any team that can grind out a result, it's manure... And I now might retract my last statement that they won't qualify... I have been o old Trafford to watch a match, and 75,000 people make a whole lot of noise! Old whiskey nose is gee'ing the crowd right up! As a neutral, I am looking forward to this last 25 (maybe 55 minutes now!!) thanks to Modric!


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## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

To be fair, Madrid deserve it now, that goal was absolutely fantastic!


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## kev_off_the_tee (Mar 5, 2013)

Uh oh, what a strike from Modric


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 5, 2013)

*Re: Nani Red Card*

Bit soft, you would have expected a yellow. But ... studs up, both feet off the floor, full on into the body? Ticks all of the boxes for a straight red, even if he obviously didn't mean it. Doesn't say anywhere in the laws that a foul has to be on purpose.


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## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

kev_off_the_tee said:



			Uh oh, what a strike from Modric
		
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Reminded me of my early years kev..... Well the stupid curtain haircut that was trendy in the early 90's anyway... Lol


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## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

Night night united! It just had to be ronaldo!


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## kev_off_the_tee (Mar 5, 2013)

kev_off_the_tee said:



			Uh oh, what a strike from Modric
		
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Uh oh, the fairy has scored. Game over


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## BTatHome (Mar 5, 2013)

Lovely goal ... Both of them


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## birdieman (Mar 5, 2013)

ref just ruined a very evenly matched good game for 200 million people! 
Had enough now.
Poor show.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 5, 2013)

CRACKING GOAL FROM MODRIC AND NOW RONNYS DONE THAT


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## Rooter (Mar 5, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			CRACKING GOAL FROM MODRIC AND NOW RONNYS DONE THAT  

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Calm down dear!


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## PieMan (Mar 5, 2013)

I for one will be quite happy to see Manure get stuffed!


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## GreiginFife (Mar 5, 2013)

Suits me, got Real to win.


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## Dodger (Mar 5, 2013)

unlike the Premiership it seems they don't have the officials in their own back pocket.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 5, 2013)

Dodger said:



			unlike the Premiership it seems they don't have the officials in their own back pocket.
		
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saving the supersub Howard Webb for sunday! :rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 5, 2013)

Nani's was a soft red card.

Rafael's handball on the line was a defo pen though - what absolute rubbish tyldeseley was talking!


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## Essex_Stu (Mar 5, 2013)

Very soft red but good to see Man Utd being on the wrong end of refs decisions for a change. Ruined the game though.


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## big_russ (Mar 5, 2013)

Not a football fan at all but that is another quality match ruined by a shocking decision from the ref.


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## Dodger (Mar 5, 2013)

big_russ said:



			Not a football fan at all but that is another quality match ruined by a shocking decision from the ref.
		
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Quality?

1st half was dire!


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## tyke (Mar 5, 2013)

*Re: Nani Red Card*



Oxfordcomma said:



			Bit soft, you would have expected a yellow. But ... studs up, both feet off the floor, full on into the body? Ticks all of the boxes for a straight red, even if he obviously didn't mean it. Doesn't say anywhere in the laws that a foul has to be on purpose.
		
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Have to agree, although until that moment i had manure down to win it.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 5, 2013)

*Re: Nani Red Card*

Respect mourihino in short after match interview.
You after a new job?


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## PieMan (Mar 5, 2013)

Dodger said:



			unlike the Premiership it seems they don't have the officials in their own back pocket.
		
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Yep; lost count of the number of dubious decisions that have gone their way over the years. And surprised by only 5 minutes of 'Fergie' time at the end; there's usually a minimum of 7 or 8 in big matches!!


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## Fish (Mar 5, 2013)

Roy Keane's spot on, and he's as red as they come, it was a red, get over it. :smirk:

and, if it was the other way around, manure would have been pushing for a red.

and, I hope Ferdinand get done for clapping in the ref's face.


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## Dellboy (Mar 5, 2013)

High boot, red card ..no more to say.


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## sawtooth (Mar 5, 2013)

big_russ said:



			Not a football fan at all...
		
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But you watched the game?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 5, 2013)

By the laws it was dangerous play and a red card. Think ref got it right


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## Stuart_Wales (Mar 5, 2013)

NEVER a red. Arbeloa didnt even make a deal out of it (which he's got a masters degree in). 

If that's a red, then make football non-contact right now.

Nani's eyes were on the ball, and he scuffed Arbeloa. Maybe if Arbeloa jolted back with force, but his path wasnt effected one bit. 

I hate Man U, but that was a shocking decision and has cost them a place (and potentially to win) in the champions league!


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## Stuart_Wales (Mar 5, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			By the laws it was dangerous play and a red card. Think ref got it right
		
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By the rules, it was a yellow. There was no intent to cause injury to the opposing player. You see worse every week in every league in the world which dont end up in a red.


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## Cherry13 (Mar 5, 2013)

Wasn't a red in my opinion, he pulled his studs down as soon as realised was there, granted that was too late.  

Think Rio was a little out of order at end mind.


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## smange (Mar 5, 2013)

If the ref had sent off Arbeloa for the high and dangerous challenge on Evra in the first half he wouldnt have been in the way when Nani tried to control the ball.

Anyone who really truely believes that Nani deserved a red for that either knows sod all about football or is just so anti United that they are blinkered.

Stop watching the slow motion reply which makes it look worse and watch it at full speed, Nani has a split second to control the ball and Arbeloa is just a bit quicker than him, there is contact but definitely not a red card.

United also should have had a penalty in injury time for Ramos' challenge on Evra (I think it was)

The ref probably cost United the game but hey ho at least they can concentrate on once again winning the league, which is without doubt the most important competition


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## Val (Mar 5, 2013)

I think Roy Keane called it spot on, high boot studs showing and off the ground is a red card every day of the week, weather he meant it or not is irrelevant.


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## richart (Mar 5, 2013)

Sorry but that was not a red card. Eyes on the ball and tried to volley it. How many times do you see someone try a bicycle kick, nearly take someones head of, but get sent off. Ruined the game, and I personally would rather see a British team win, than a Spanish one.

If Roy Keane thought was a sending off, then he is judging by his own standards when it would have been intentional. Struggle to think of a more obnoxious footballer, and his expert analysis is no better. Seems to be looking for a fight even in the commentary box.


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## the hammer (Mar 5, 2013)

smange said:



			If the ref had sent off Arbeloa for the high and dangerous challenge on Evra in the first half he wouldnt have been in the way when Nani tried to control the ball.

Anyone who really truely believes that Nani deserved a red for that either knows sod all about football or is just so anti United that they are blinkered.

Stop watching the slow motion reply which makes it look worse and watch it at full speed, Nani has a split second to control the ball and Arbeloa is just a bit quicker than him, there is contact but definitely not a red card.

United also should have had a penalty in injury time for Ramos' challenge on Evra (I think it was)

The ref probably cost United the game but hey ho at least they can concentrate on once again winning the league, which is without doubt the most important competition
		
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Agreed.


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## Stuart_Wales (Mar 5, 2013)

A high boot, in the rules of football, comes into the catagory of 'dangerous play'. It is then down to the referee to decide on variables such as intent, potential injury to the recipient, timing, aggression and other factors. 

Intent - none to very low.
Potential to cause injury - none to very low
Timing - poor
Aggression - none to very low

Mistimed and high, yellow card.


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## Imurg (Mar 5, 2013)

If that was a genuine Red card then I'm finished with Football for good.
You see worse contact in Basketball - a Non-Contact Sport.....


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## bladeplayer (Mar 5, 2013)

Imurg said:



			If that was a genuine Red card then I'm finished with Football for good.
You see worse contact in Basketball - a Non-Contact Sport.....
		
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Have to agree & anyone that properly supports football or has played it knows ther was no intent in that.. If that's a red then forget football altogether


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 5, 2013)

Not posted on here for a long time having been working away but have just watched the match and that was never a Red card in a million years, not a Utd fan either and quite happy to see them stuffed in their own back yard but they have got a right to feel aggrieved by the ref for once


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## Scottjd1 (Mar 5, 2013)

Cherry13 said:



			Wasn't a red in my opinion, he pulled his studs down as soon as realised was there, granted that was too late.
		
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I thought that but from the refs angle he kicked out again, think thats why it was red.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 5, 2013)

Regardless of the red card, utd had 30mins to see that game out and Ferguson's tactics to carry on playing as they were wrong.

Why not get 10 men behind the ball and deny Madrid space and see the game out.

If that was Madrid down to 10 men they would've made sure they didn't concede again.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 5, 2013)

If the ref had sent off Arbeloa for the high and dangerous challenge on Evra in the first half he wouldnt have been in the way when Nani tried to control the ball.

 - No-one else mentioned it in the after match commentary, if your saying Nanis wasn't - surely this wasn't either.

United also should have had a penalty in injury time for Ramos' challenge on Evra (I think it was).

- And madrid should have had one for Rafael's handball. Vidic should have had one as well, BTW.

The ref probably cost United the game but hey ho at least they can concentrate on once again winning the league, which is without doubt the most important competition


- Not for Ferguson it isn't - he is obsessed with Bob Paisley's 3, and Liverpool's 5 too much.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

The bottom line is the ref has to make a decision on what he saw, he does not have the luxury of multiple replays from different angles. If you put a referee in a position where he has to make a big decision like that then there is the chance for him to get it wrong.

[h=1]Law 12 - fouls and misconduct[/h]
[h=3]Sending-off offences[/h]A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:


*serious foul play*
violent conduct
spitting at an opponent or any other person
denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
receiving a second caution in the same match



A player, substitute or substituted player who has been sent off must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area. 

That is the ruling regarding red cards. If the referee has seen it as the one I have highlighted then he made the correct decision.

Nani had his boot well above waist height with his studs showing, that you can't argue with. So is it not serious foul play?

I think it was harsh but I can see why the ref sent him off.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 6, 2013)

if there going to start sending players off for trying to control the ball, the abandon game at 7 players rule might need reviewing!

i cannot see how that is a red card anyday of the week for any team.

As pointed out i did hamper Uniteds chances of seeing the game out and going through but wasnt to be, move on to trying to beat Chelsea on sunday now.

LB think you are correct for all Fergies acivements and "knocking off the perch" :lol: he has come up short in europe time and time again and think he knows that the 5-3 gap should of been closed out by now. At least the other ones are looking like increasing :rofl:


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

So the concensus is he shouldn't have been sent off as he didn't mean it (as far as I can make out) what about these penalties that are given when a player is late to the ball and takes the man out, should these be given.

I don't see what the fuss is, his boot was high and his studs were showing and he hit the opposition player with his foot above waist height. Red card every day if the week, I'd go as far to say Nani had a fly dig at the player too once he realised he was there


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Everyone keeps mentioning the word "intent"!  If you listening to the panel, all ex-footballers and Roy Keane a manager also and very much a red, he states clearly that "intent" is irrelevant and agreed the decision was right.

If that challenge had been on a United player they would have been baying for blood and a sending off.

Lets just focus now on Ferdinand getting reprimanded for clapping in front of the refs face at the end, which he could have still been sent off for at that time.


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## Birchy (Mar 6, 2013)

Cant really say the ref cost them the game when Rafael tipped one off the line which would of been a red card and a penalty to boot. Fergie running down the steps like a lemon tickled me too. Its different when somebody does it back to you isnt Fergie? :rofl:


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## AmandaJR (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Everyone keeps mentioning the word "intent"!  If you listening to the panel, all ex-footballers and Roy Keane a manager also and very much a red, he states clearly that "intent" is irrelevant and agreed the decision was right.

If that challenge had been on a United player they would have been baying for blood and a sending off.

Lets just focus now on Ferdinand getting reprimanded for clapping in front of the refs face at the end, which he could have still been sent off for at that time.
		
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It was scary to find myself agreeing with Roy Keane on pretty much every point he made!


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 6, 2013)

Yeah but keane still holding grudges from his playing days.....

Manager? Ex failed.... :rofl:


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## Mungoscorner (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Sorry but that was not a red card. Eyes on the ball and tried to volley it. How many times do you see someone try a bicycle kick, nearly take someones head of, but get sent off. Ruined the game, and I personally would rather see a British team win, than a Spanish one.

*If Roy Keane thought was a sending off, then he is judging by his own standards when it would have been intentional. Struggle to think of a more obnoxious footballer, and his expert analysis is no better. Seems to be looking for a fight even in the commentary box*.
		
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You took the words out of my mouth.


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## sawtooth (Mar 6, 2013)

If I were a Utd supporter I would be angry at Nani this morning. Not because he tried to harm the player (because I dont think that he did) but he should of known better. As a seasoned professional why risk doing something that could be possibly penalised with a red card? He must have known that with his foot that high and studs showing that there was a fair chance that it could go the way it did.

Middle of the park, 1-0 up and coasting.

Verdict. 

Nani's fault for being brainless.

(Ref only did what 50% of any other ref would have done, Fergie and Ferdinand reaction totally understandable but some of it should be directed at Nani if you ask me - what was he thinking?)


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## Crazyface (Mar 6, 2013)

OOOOOOOOOOH happy daaaaayaaaaa......oooooooooooohhhh haaaaaaapppppy daaaaaaayaaaaayaaaaa 

They're OUT ! You can argue till you're red in the face. They're OUT !!!!!!!


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## bladeplayer (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:




*serious foul play*
violent conduct
spitting at an opponent or any other person
denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
receiving a second caution in the same match




That is the ruling regarding red cards. If the referee has seen it as the one I have highlighted then he made the correct decision.

Nani had his boot well above waist height with his studs showing, that you can't argue with. So is it not serious foul play?

I think it was harsh but I can see why the ref sent him off.
		
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I cant see anything Nani did in that list ,esp not SERIOUS foul play mate , surely serious foul play is TRYING to hurt an opponent ? high boot maybe , but he was trying to control the ball not kick some one , guy came from behind him .. 
So overhead and bicycle kicks should be banned ,?
Problem is alot of therse refs have never played the game at a high level , happens in a split second , which i can understand the ref might have trouble seeing , he should take a step back , consult his linesmen etc , get their opinion  then make the decision , there is too much at stake in these games now ..

CANT believe im defending utd ..hope ferdinand does get punished for his childish antics tho ..


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## bladeplayer (Mar 6, 2013)

Crazyface said:



			OOOOOOOOOOH happy daaaaayaaaaa......oooooooooooohhhh haaaaaaapppppy daaaaaaayaaaaayaaaaa 

They're OUT ! You can argue till you're red in the face. They're OUT !!!!!!!
		
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Very constructive & contributes loads to the debate that does ..


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## Akie (Mar 6, 2013)

Couldn't see how it is a sending off if its not intentional, Lopez pretty much punched Vidic in the face one one corner when he came for the ball and missed it. Obviously wasn't intentional but should that be a sending off?


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 6, 2013)

For me it was soft but understandable when the ref only gets one look at it. Seen these given before, seen even worse ones than that. Certainly not worth the hysteria from united fans (and media).


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2013)

As has already been said overhead scissor/bicycle kicks in crowded penalty boxes go unpunished week in week out... And how about the two fisted attack on the ball that nearly took off Vidic's head... How is that not dangerous play.... Straight red I don't think so...

Oh, and Ferdinand should be getting a minimum three match ban for his post match 'antics'...


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## Shaunmg (Mar 6, 2013)

If the boot was on the other foot (no pun intended) and it was a Utd player getting studs in the guts by a flying kung fu kick. Fergie would have been screaming from the roof tops for a red card or return of the death penalty. He is the biggest hypocrite in the game, and had no bottle to face TV cameras after the game 


Keane was the only man talking sense last night. The game wasnâ€™t spoilt for me, only for Utd fans, and that was Naniâ€™s fault, not the ref for doing his job in such an overwhelming hostile atmosphere. Now thatâ€™s bottle


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## Akie (Mar 6, 2013)

Shaunmg said:



			If the boot was on the other foot (no pun intended) and it was a Utd player getting studs in the guts by a flying kung fu kick. Fergie would have been screaming from the roof tops for a red card or return of the death penalty. He is the biggest hypocrite in the game, and had no bottle to face TV cameras after the game 


Keane was the only man talking sense last night. The game wasnâ€™t spoilt for me, only for Utd fans, and that was Naniâ€™s fault, not the ref for doing his job in such an overwhelming hostile atmosphere. Now thatâ€™s bottle
		
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I'd check with Tim Flowers first, he really does know something about bottle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYWr-n87EmQ


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## Stuey01 (Mar 6, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Cant really say the ref cost them the game when Rafael tipped one off the line which would of been a red card and a penalty to boot.
		
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This is a great point.
I'm in the camp that Nani's red was a bit harsh, but on balance they got away with one there with Rafael.  Ebbs and flows... swings and rounabouts... win some, lose some.  Whatever cliche you like.

The worst decision on the night surely lies with Fergie not making changes in response to a) the red card b) Real equalising c) going behind.  Why did he wait so long?  Bizarre.
Mourinho wasn't afraid to make changes and putting on Modric swung the game.

Giggs was immense, for 75 minutes, but he looked tired at the end - 90+minutes at 39years old, when you're down to 10 men?  what was Fergie thinking?

Mourinho was very magnanimous in victory, eye on the next job probably.  Shame Fergie couldn't be a grown up and take it on the chin.  Sending his assistant to the post match press conference? what a child. Pathetic.

Rio is a douche as well, the ref should have red carded him at the end.

Apart from all that I thought Man U played really well until the sending off, and Welbeck was excellent.


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## Birchy (Mar 6, 2013)

Remember when the Swansea player accidentally smacked the ball into Van Persies head earlier and season? It didnt matter to Fergie that it was accidental did it? He still screamed blue murder.

Thats the trouble with him, theres never any perpective. Hes always trying to bend everything in his favour and when it goes against him he just cant handle it.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			I cant see anything Nani did in that list ,esp not SERIOUS foul play mate , surely serious foul play is TRYING to hurt an opponent ? high boot maybe , but he was trying to control the ball not kick some one , guy came from behind him .. So overhead and bicycle kicks should be banned ,?Problem is alot of therse refs have never played the game at a high level , happens in a split second , which i can understand the ref might have trouble seeing , he should take a step back , consult his linesmen etc , get their opinion  then make the decision , there is too much at stake in these games now ..CANT believe im defending utd ..hope ferdinand does get punished for his childish antics tho ..
		
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I did say that I thought it was harsh, but what I highlighted is the only the way I can see the referee for sending him off. Who says that Nani did not know that he was coming in and did do it to hurt him, how do you know that Nani did not know he was coming? The referee can not make a judgement on what Nani was thinking at the time. All he can do is make a judgement on what he saw. What he saw was a 50/50 ball and Nani put his foot, studs showing, well above weast height and stick it into another players ribs. He obviously interpeted it as dangerous, which then falls into the serious foul play rule. Harsh decission and if it was my team I would be gutted with it, but the way he saw it was a red card offence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2013)

kev_off_the_tee said:



			It was a booking but certainly not a red. 

As a Geordie, as much as it pains me to say this I think Man Utd can still do this. Think English
		
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Aye right!


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## Akie (Mar 6, 2013)

At the end of the day it probably shouldn't have been a sending off but Utd had a lead to hold onto and failed to keep it. Even with 10 men they could have done that.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Remember when the Swansea player accidentally smacked the ball into Van Persies head earlier and season? It didnt matter to Fergie that it was accidental did it? He still screamed blue murder.
		
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An accident.:mmm: Think I will have to look up the definition of accident. Didn't realise it meant hammering the ball into someones head on purpose.

I wonder what promises the ref was on for Real to win.


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			An accident.:mmm: Think I will have to look up the definition of accident. Didn't realise it meant hammering the ball into someones head on purpose.

I wonder what promises the ref was on for Real to win.

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Agreed the Swansea incident was more worthy of a Red than last nights. Didn't think the ref was biased at all, it's more likely that Manure are used to getting all the decisions and when they don't they all spit their dummy's out and Ferdinand what a tool he is hope they throw the book at him. Thinks he's better than he is always been average.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			. He obviously interpeted it as dangerous, which then falls into the serious foul play rule..
		
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True ... And his is the only opinion that realy counts .. we must accept "most" refs have no intrest in the outcome of the games so as you correctly say its how they see a challenge & interpet it in a split second a full speed , without the use of 10 camera angles & slow mo etc ..


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

That was never a red card. Nani was trying to control the ball, not injure a player. You see that type of control attempt week in week out in any league, not just the Premiership or Champions League.

Nobody has mentioned what a fantastic game RM keeper had, kept them in the game, especially in the 2nd half. United were definitely the better team in the 2nd half.

I really can't understand all this hatred for Manchester United. THE most successful team ever, with by far the best Manager in Alex Ferguson, certainly in the UK. Which I suppose is where all the hatred comes from, because of jealousy.

I've also seen over the years plenty of decisions go against United, and does anybody think that referees give extra minutes to Manchester United? Any referee that did that would be axed pretty quickly - they are monitored in every game, or do people forget that!


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

It doesn't matter what he "was trying to do", its the outcome that matters and if this had been on a red shirt there would be cries of OFF, OFF, OFF all around the stadium and old Red Nose would have just been as quick down his stairs as he was last night.

View attachment 4984


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			It doesn't matter what he "was trying to do", its the outcome that matters and if this had been on a red shirt there would be cries of OFF, OFF, OFF all around the stadium and old Red Nose would have just been as quick down his stairs as he was last night.

View attachment 4984

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I'm sure that would have been the case too, but it still would not have made it right.

Sorry, not a red card.


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## Dodger (Mar 6, 2013)

Anyone else get the feeling that it's a done deal that the Special One being at Old Trafford very shortly is a done deal?

His reactions after the game and during it for that matter are not like him.

If that had been while he was at Chelsea he would have been gloating all the way........last night it was like he was trying to get the Man U fans onside.


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## Jay Gee (Mar 6, 2013)

I agree with Roy Keane,  I don't think the ref was wrong for showing a red as intent has nothing to do with. Yes it was a bit harsh but not unfair.

Ref didn't have the best game though especially when Ramos got away with clothes-lining Rafael (I think). That move was straight out of WWE


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			It doesn't matter what he "was trying to do", its the outcome that matters and if this had been on a red shirt there would be cries of OFF, OFF, OFF all around the stadium and old Red Nose would have just been as quick down his stairs as he was last night.

View attachment 4984

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Spot on.  The acid test for me is what would Fergie have done, and as someone else has said he would have been down the steps just as quick demanding the player responsible was sent off.  Considering what he claimed after van Persie was hit with a ball, I don't know how he has the gall to defend that.  Nice to see United supporting the respect campaign by not surrounding the ref and not sarcastically applauding him at the end, but I suppose the press will gloss over that or make their usual excuses for them.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 6, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Anyone else get the feeling that it's a done deal that the Special One being at Old Trafford very shortly is a done deal?

His reactions after the game and during it for that matter are not like him.

If that had been while he was at Chelsea he would have been gloating all the way........last night it was like he was trying to get the Man U fans onside.
		
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100% - made me want to puke he was so sickenly humble and "fair".


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## Paul_Stewart (Mar 6, 2013)

birdieman said:



			ref just ruined a very evenly matched good game for 200 million people! 
Had enough now.
Poor show.
		
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So if the Open comes down to Rory v Tiger, both level with three holes to play and one of them hits it out of bounds on the 16th hole, that means it shouldn't count because the Rules have cost a very evenly matched good game for so many people?    

The referee has applied the rules from his one unrepeatable on replay view of the incident.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			That was never a red card. Nani was trying to control the ball, not injure a player. You see that type of control attempt week in week out in any league, not just the Premiership or Champions League.
		
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It may not have looked like a red card after you saw it for the tenth time from every angle possible. Ref saw it once and had to react to that. How do you know what Nani was trying to do? Have you developed the ability to read peoples minds through TV? 

The biggest problem is football pundits and commentators that make up their own rules for the game. They start talking about things like intent, I did not see that in the rules of football anywhere, as you can't ask a referee to make a call on what a player was thinking. 

I posted the laws on sending off earlier in the thread and that was taken straight from the FIFA website and no where did it talk about intent. I have got a copy of part of the interpretation of serious foul play here:

*Serious foul play

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the 
front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force 
and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

A player who is guilty of serious foul play should be sent off and play is 
restarted with a direct free kick from the position where the offence occurred 
(see Law 13 â€“ Position of free kick) *

So ask your self 2 questions:

Did he go for the ball in a way that was endangering the safety of an opponent?
If he did do that, then, did the referee apply the law correctly?

Yes it was harsh, but the referee had one chance to see it and had to make a decision on that. He obviously saw it as serious foul play.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			It may not have looked like a red card after you saw it for the tenth time from every angle possible. Ref saw it once and had to react to that. How do you know what Nani was trying to do? Have you developed the ability to read peoples minds through TV? 




Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball.............

First of all I did not see it from all angles or 10 times. What I did see though, was that the other player ran in to Nani just as he was attempting to control the ball. That's the big difference for me.
		
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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			What I did see though, was that the other player ran in to Nani just as he was attempting to control the ball. That's the big difference for me.
		
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No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
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Thankyou Robin. You have hit the nail on the head. It was actually a late tackle, with his studs showing from a boot above waist height. Sounds more and more like a red card to me.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
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It's not a case of me seeing what I want to see. If I honestly thought it warranted a red card, then I would say so, I'm not that biased towards M. United.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so we'll leave it at that eh?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			It's not a case of me seeing what I want to see. If I honestly thought it warranted a red card, then I would say so, I'm not *that* biased towards M. United.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so we'll leave it at that eh? 

Click to expand...

so you admit that you are biased towards them then.........


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			so you admit that you are biased towards them then.........

Click to expand...

Stop trying to make a play on words Mr Munich.

I am a fan of M united, yes, but my point was that if I thought they were in the wrong then I would say so. :ears:


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## MetalMickie (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
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As a non Man U or Chelsea fan let me say that the above description of the incident is complete twaddle!

After all the flak that Chelsea have taken for their behaviour in Europe it was never likely that a Chelsea fan would take an objective view any more than a Man U fan.

However,the ref sees it once in real time & from one angle, he then makes an honest judgement. This call may well seem to us to be wrong but it isn't because he is the ref and, therefore, is right even when he is wrong. The alternative is not TV replays as football does not lend itself to the stop/start  scenarios that the technology would require.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
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Golfmmad said:



			It's not a case of me seeing what I want to see. If I honestly thought it warranted a red card, then I would say so, I'm not that biased towards M. United.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so we'll leave it at that eh? 

Click to expand...

I think the difference is that Fish is stating facts on what happened and you are the one giving an opinion on what happened, big difference between an opinion and a fact.


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## Stuart_Wales (Mar 6, 2013)

Valentino said:



			So the concensus is he shouldn't have been sent off as he didn't mean it (as far as I can make out) *what about these penalties that are given when a player is late to the ball and takes the man out, should these be given.
*

Click to expand...

Eh? Of course it should be given! As a free kick should have been given last night! Cards are then given out depending on how severe the foul was... 

Odd logic, to say the least.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 6, 2013)

Forget the context of the game and the fact it was Old Trafford. You are refereeing the Dog and Duck second XI against the Red Lion on the local red. Exactly the same challenge what do you do? I am a qualified ref and I would still send the guy off. Dangerous play is dangerous play. What happens if you don't punish it accordingly. The players take advantage and think anything goes and it becomes a nightmare fixture to ref.


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			As a non Man U or Chelsea fan let me say that the above description of the incident is complete twaddle!

After all the flak that Chelsea have taken for their behaviour in Europe it was never likely that a Chelsea fan would take an objective view any more than a Man U fan.

However,the ref sees it once in real time & from one angle, he then makes an honest judgement. This call may well seem to us to be wrong but it isn't because he is the ref and, therefore, is right even when he is wrong. The alternative is not TV replays as football does not lend itself to the stop/start  scenarios that the technology would require.
		
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Chests the ball as he is 2running onto the ball", FACT.

View attachment 5031

View attachment 5032


and.. if you want to continue to watch this it underlines the Real madrid player running ONTO the ball and chests it forward and Nani comes into his SIDE as the ball is over him and comes with his studs up late into the player AFTER the ball has gone, FACT.
View attachment 5033


Nothing to do with following Chelsea so stick your Twaddle, the facts don't lie. Red Card.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Forget the context of the game and the fact it was Old Trafford. You are refereeing the Dog and Duck second XI against the Red Lion on the local red. Exactly the same challenge what do you do? I am a qualified ref and I would still send the guy off. Dangerous play is dangerous play. What happens if you don't punish it accordingly. The players take advantage and think anything goes and it becomes a nightmare fixture to ref.
		
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:thup:


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Here go, tell me the Real player doesn't chest the ball first?

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/man.united-vs-real-madrid-nani-arbeloa-MQby6rX8DISNLhUY


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## upsidedown (Mar 6, 2013)

I've only seen the news coverage , does Nani at anytime look towards the RM player before going for the ball?


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Chests the ball as he is 2running onto the ball", FACT.

View attachment 5031

View attachment 5032


and.. if you want to continue to watch this it underlines the Real madrid player running ONTO the ball and chests it forward and Nani comes into his SIDE as the ball is over him and comes with his studs up late into the player AFTER the ball has gone, FACT.
View attachment 5033


Nothing to do with following Chelsea so stick your Twaddle, the facts don't lie. Red Card.
		
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The first 2 images you show there are after the ball and proves nothing.

But the image you show on its own, proves that the ball is far closer to Nani than it is to Arbeloa - FACT.
 And Arbeloa runs in to Nani before before he has a chance to get his boot out of the way. 
That's how I see it, and that's a fact as well as an opinion.


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			The first 2 images you show there are after the ball and proves nothing.

But the image you show on its own, proves that the ball is far closer to Nani than it is to Arbeloa - FACT.
 And Arbeloa runs in to Nani before before he has a chance to get his boot out of the way. 
That's how I see it, and that's a fact as well as an opinion.
		
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Your deluded, watch the video, the Real player clearly chests the ball and gets their first, the ball is coming over Nani and the Real player is running onto the ball, Nani's foot and studs are high and the ball has gone when his studs make impact.

Your unbelievably biased!

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/man.united-vs-real-madrid-nani-arbeloa-MQby6rX8DISNLhUY


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
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Golfmmad said:



			The first 2 images you show there are after the ball and proves nothing.

But the image you show on its own, proves that the ball is far closer to Nani than it is to Arbeloa - FACT.
 And Arbeloa runs in to Nani before before he has a chance to get his boot out of the way. 
That's how I see it, and that's a fact as well as an opinion.
		
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You claimed earlier in the thread you are not being biased towards your team. So what are you saying now?

If Nani goes into the side of Arbeloa then it is Nani that has gone into him not the other way around due to the angle the incident happened at.


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			You claimed earlier in the thread you are not being biased towards your team. So what are you saying now?

If Nani goes into the side of Arbeloa then it is Nani that has gone into him not the other way around due to the angle the incident happened at.
		
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The video Adey shows all angles and clearly shows Abeloa is nowhere near Nani's body "to go into him" and actually chests the ball as he is running onto it, Nani's foot is high, the ball is coming over the top of him and his studs go into the Real's players ribs in his SIDE after he has chested it forward, its cut & dry mate, he's biased buddy, FACT :thup:


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			It's not a case of me seeing what I want to see. If I honestly thought it warranted a red card, then I would say so, I'm not that biased towards M. United.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, so we'll leave it at that eh? 

Click to expand...

So in your opinion the rules are wrong then I take it?


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			The first 2 images you show there are after the ball and proves nothing.

But the image you show on its own, proves that the ball is far closer to Nani than it is to Arbeloa - FACT.
 And Arbeloa runs in to Nani before before he has a chance to get his boot out of the way. 
That's how I see it, and that's a fact as well as an opinion.
		
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I take it you see red golf balls through your tinted glasses?

Nani hit Arbeloa with his boot not the other way round.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			You claimed earlier in the thread you are not being biased towards your team. So what are you saying now?

If Nani goes into the side of Arbeloa then it is Nani that has gone into him not the other way around due to the angle the incident happened at.
		
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I'm saying just how I see it, Man utd fan or not. Arbeloa runs in to Nani, not the other way round.


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## MadAdey (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			No he didn't, the other player actually chests the ball forward before Nan is anywhere near the ball which is why Nani's boots goes into the side rib cage and the ball goes behind Nani as the other player got there first!

You've seen what you want to see!.
		
Click to expand...




Golfmmad said:



			I'm saying just how I see it, Man utd fan or not. Arbeloa runs in to Nani, not the other way round.
		
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Obviously you use the same rose tinted glasses as the Man u loving premier league refs that you see at Old Trafford week in week out.......


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			I'm saying just how I see it, Man utd fan or not. Arbeloa runs in to Nani, not the other way round.
		
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Have you watched the video link I've put up and you still honestly think that?


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Have you watched the video link I've put up and you still honestly think that?
		
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Yes I did watch the video link you put up and posted back to you thanking you for it, but for some reason it didn't work.

Sorry Fish, I watched it several times - Nani is on one leg trying to control the ball and Arbeloa runs in to him.

Have you forgotten how clever the RM players are at faking injuries and making the opposition looking like the guilty party.

Happens all the time in Europe.


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## Wayman (Mar 6, 2013)

stupid call by ref 
shouldnt of been sent off i think


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			Yes I did watch the video link you put up and posted back to you thanking you for it, but for some reason it didn't work.

Sorry Fish, I watched it several times - Nani is on one leg trying to control the ball and Arbeloa runs in to him.

Have you forgotten how clever the RM players are at faking injuries and making the opposition looking like the guilty party.

Happens all the time in Europe.
		
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Like NAni too then, why did Nani go down like he'd been shot at the time of the incident, he knew he was in bother.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Obviously you use the same rose tinted glasses as the Man u loving premier league refs that you see at Old Trafford week in week out.......

Click to expand...

I've said in a previous post on this that if Referee's were to give favouritism to Man utd in any way, they would be taken to task for it. As I said before, does anybody really believe this love for Man utd happens?


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			Yes I did watch the video link you put up and posted back to you thanking you for it, but for some reason it didn't work.

Sorry Fish, I watched it several times - Nani is on one leg trying to control the ball and Arbeloa runs in to him.

Have you forgotten how clever the RM players are at faking injuries and making the opposition looking like the guilty party.

Happens all the time in Europe.
		
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Its got nothing to do with faking anything, Nani's boot goes into the ribs of the Real player AFTER he has chested the ball forward, the video is as clear as gin.

His (Nani's) foot is fully extended when the player chests the ball and as such there is no body to body contact, that is why in the pictures Nani's foot is still in contact with the Real players ribs and the ball is some 6ft forward, the way the Real player is facing!

Typical bias untied fan, you do your team and yourself no favours with such biased opinions on show.  South coast armchair supporter I bet.

I suppose Ferdinand was trying to swat some flies in front of the refs face at the end and not sarcastically clapping his correct decision?


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## Golfmmad (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Its got nothing to do with faking anything, Nani's boot goes into the ribs of the Real player AFTER he has chested the ball forward, the video is as clear as gin.

His (Nani's) foot is fully extended when the player chests the ball and as such there is no body to body contact, that is why in the pictures Nani's foot is still in contact with the Real players ribs and the ball is some 6ft forward, the way the Real player is facing!

Typical bias untied fan, you do your team and yourself no favours with such biased opinions on show.  South coast armchair supporter I bet.

I suppose Ferdinand was trying to swat some flies in front of the refs face at the end and not sarcastically clapping his correct decision?
		
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The red card incident itself has nothing to do with my being a Man Utd supporter. How many more times do I have to say it, it was not a red card no matter what team it was given against.

And what's so wrong with a South Coast armchair supporter?

I think it's time to call a halt Gentlemen, thanks for the debate, I've enjoyed it. We'll just have to agree to differ on this.

Plus I have to be up at 5am, so it's goodnight from me!


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## Birchy (Mar 6, 2013)

What happens if say for instance if Nani had hit him in the face with his boot instead? By accident of course but would it still not be a red card? How hard do you have to hit somebody accidentally before it goes from foul to yellow to red?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			You claimed earlier in the thread you are not being biased towards your team. So what are you saying now?

If Nani goes into the side of Arbeloa then it is Nani that has gone into him not the other way around due to the angle the incident happened at.
		
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MadAdey, he didn't say he wasn't biased, he said he wasn't *that* biased...........


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			Have you forgotten how clever the RM players are at faking injuries and making the opposition looking like the guilty party.

Happens all the time in Europe.
		
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Happens quite a lot in the Premier league too.  Nani.  Ashley Young.  Hernandez.  Patrice Evra.  Fabio.  Have I missed any?


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

All this has deflected away from old Red Noses "Rooney gamble" going horribly wrong also.

I just read a fan called 999 and reported a crime at OT after the match :rofl:  the 18 year old is being prosecuted, you couldn't make it up :rofl:


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## MetalMickie (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Chests the ball as he is 2running onto the ball", FACT.

View attachment 5031

View attachment 5032


and.. if you want to continue to watch this it underlines the Real madrid player running ONTO the ball and chests it forward and Nani comes into his SIDE as the ball is over him and comes with his studs up late into the player AFTER the ball has gone, FACT.
View attachment 5033


Nothing to do with following Chelsea so stick your Twaddle, the facts don't lie. Red Card.
		
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Purely your view & version of the facts. Every angle I have seen shows Nani's foot raised well before Arbeloa's arrival.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 6, 2013)

Golfmmad said:



			I really can't understand all this hatred for Manchester United. THE most successful team ever, with by far the best Manager in Alex Ferguson, certainly in the UK. Which I suppose is where all the hatred comes from, because of jealousy.

I've also seen over the years plenty of decisions go against United, and does anybody think that referees give extra minutes to Manchester United? Any referee that did that would be axed pretty quickly - they are monitored in every game, or do people forget that!
		
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You make that first statement, and wonder why Man U are hated so much? Ferguson has won more leagues over 20 odd years, so I'll give him that.

Genuine question though - do you think he has been negligent in Europe,though? 19 chances to win the Chamions league, only successful twice, one through JT falling over, and the other had a great 3 minutes in the final against bayern.

It is only Man U fans who don't think they are favoured by refs. Look at Mike Riley's stats for giving Man U penalties - oh yes, he's the one in charge of the refs. 

I tried not to get involved in this, over recent threads, as I generally call it as it is, but some of your comments just led me in.

No doubt, I will not see this through United glasses, but come on. For the record, although initially seeing it as "harsh" being a red.
The only reason for this is due to Nani not seeing Arbeloa, but he should have been watching properly if raising his feet that high.


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## Birchy (Mar 6, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			You make that first statement, and wonder why Man U are hated so much? Ferguson has won more leagues over 20 odd years, so I'll give him that.

Genuine question though - do you think he has been negligent in Europe,though? 19 chances to win the Chamions league, only successful twice, one through JT falling over, and the other had a great 3 minutes in the final against bayern.

It is only Man U fans who don't think they are favoured by refs. Look at Mike Riley's stats for giving Man U penalties - oh yes, he's the one in charge of the refs. 

I tried not to get involved in this, over recent threads, as I generally call it as it is, but some of your comments just led me in.

No doubt, I will not see this through United glasses, but come on. For the record, although initially seeing it as "harsh" being a red.
The only reason for this is due to Nani not seeing Arbeloa, but he should have been watching properly if raising his feet that high.
		
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I was wondering how long you could hold back from this :rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 6, 2013)

Birchy said:



			I was wondering how long you could hold back from this :rofl:
		
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It's just when your met with so much biased guff, you have to challenge it.

I mean - why is there so much jealousy - we're British for god's sake - we hate winners. When LFC were top we were hated, Chelsea the same. Man U's arrogance gets them even further up the list, generally amongst neutrals.

Refs would be reprimanded if Man U had more decisions - yeah,right -  Mork calling orson!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			You make that first statement, and wonder why Man U are hated so much? Ferguson has won more leagues over 20 odd years, so I'll give him that.

Genuine question though - do you think he has been negligent in Europe,though? 19 chances to win the Chamions league, only successful twice, one through JT falling over, and the other had a great 3 minutes in the final against bayern.

It is only Man U fans who don't think they are favoured by refs. Look at Mike Riley's stats for giving Man U penalties - oh yes, he's the one in charge of the refs. 

I tried not to get involved in this, over recent threads, as I generally call it as it is, but some of your comments just led me in.

No doubt, I will not see this through United glasses, but come on. For the record, although initially seeing it as "harsh" being a red.
The only reason for this is due to Nani not seeing Arbeloa, but he should have been watching properly if raising his feet that high.
		
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Two sendings off for Chelsea players against them this season; Ivanovic for allegedly tripping Young, the replays showing that there may well not have been contact, Torres for a second yellow for simulation when avoiding a 2-footed Jonny Evans lunge (a red card offence in itself), the replays showing that there was contact.  No bias there then. 

My only sympathy for Ferguson in this, and my main current gripe with football, is with the complete inconsistency with which the rules are applied, as another week that may well not have been given.  That doesn't make it right, and I think the referee last night did get it right.  And the bottom line is that if Arbeloa had done it to Nani and been sent off, Ferguson couldn't have got in front of the cameras to tell us all it was the right decision quick enough.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Interesting to hear Dermot Gallaghers view on the incident. Think he knows a bit about the game.

'The decision was harsh to say the least, but in fairness the Real player did Nani no favours whatsoever. At worst Nani catches the underside of his arm, certainly not the ribs as the guy has gone down and shown. I can't reiterate enough that Nani is watching the ball over his shoulder and there was no malice in him. At worst it is a yellow for dangerous play, but if I was referring the game I can not see by what stretch of the imagination I would have sent him off.'

I personally am not biased towards Man Utd, but that was not a sending off offence. As I said before every bicycle kick in the box could become a sending off offence. How many volleys do you see in a game at above waist height ? Are people saying you can only raise your foot to kick the ball, if you are 100% sure you are not going to catch an opponent. These incidents happen regularily in games, and players are not sent off. Nani watched the ball as it travelled 30 yards, he tried to control it over his shoulder, not smash it away, his foot caught a player that moved towards the ball behind his eye line. Two players trying to control the same ball. The clips that are being shown do not show the whole incident just the moment of impact.

I watched the incident live, have watched it replayed in slow motion many times and in my opinion it is not a sending off offence.


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## Birchy (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Interesting to hear Dermot Gallaghers view on the incident. Think he knows a bit about the game.

'The decision was harsh to say the least, but in fairness the Real player did Nani no favours whatsoever. At worst Nani catches the underside of his arm, certainly not the ribs as the guy has gone down and shown. I can't reiterate enough that Nani is watching the ball over his shoulder and there was no malice in him. At worst it is a yellow for dangerous play, but if I was referring the game I can not see by what stretch of the imagination I would have sent him off.'

I personally am not biased towards Man Utd, but that was not a sending off offence. As I said before every bicycle kick in the box could become a sending off offence. How many volleys do you see in a game at above waist height ? Are people saying you can only raise your foot to kick the ball, if you are 100% sure you are not going to catch an opponent. These incidents happen regularily in games, and players are not sent off. Nani watched the ball as it travelled 30 yards, he tried to control it over his shoulder, not smash it away, his foot caught a player that moved towards the ball behind his eye line. Two players trying to control the same ball. The clips that are being shown do not show the whole incident just the moment of impact.

I watched the incident live, have watched it replayed in slow motion many times and in my opinion it is not a sending off offence.
		
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Nobody volleys a ball studs first though do they? What if his boot had caught his face? Still no red or is that now dangerous enough for a red?


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## Piece (Mar 6, 2013)

I think it boils down to this:

- On the continent it is a sending off as the foot is high.
- In the UK it isn't a sending off as we tolerate a higher foot.


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## Fish (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Interesting to hear Dermot Gallaghers view on the incident. Think he knows a bit about the game.

'The decision was harsh to say the least, but in fairness the Real player did Nani no favours whatsoever. At worst Nani catches the underside of his arm, certainly not the ribs as the guy has gone down and shown. I can't reiterate enough that Nani is watching the ball over his shoulder and there was no malice in him. At worst it is a yellow for dangerous play, but if I was referring the game I can not see by what stretch of the imagination I would have sent him off.'

I personally am not biased towards Man Utd, but that was not a sending off offence. As I said before every bicycle kick in the box could become a sending off offence. How many volleys do you see in a game at above waist height ? Are people saying you can only raise your foot to kick the ball, if you are 100% sure you are not going to catch an opponent. These incidents happen regularily in games, and players are not sent off. Nani watched the ball as it travelled 30 yards, he tried to control it over his shoulder, not smash it away, his foot caught a player that moved towards the ball behind his eye line. Two players trying to control the same ball. The clips that are being shown do not show the whole incident just the moment of impact.

I watched the incident live, have watched it replayed in slow motion many times and in my opinion it is not a sending off offence.
		
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http://gifninja.com/animated-gifs/146477/homer-simpson-mooning

View attachment 5035


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 6, 2013)

Other thoughts about last night:-

Ferguson should have picked Rooney, Rooney more than any other player, get Man U playing in little 5-a-side games all over the pitch. He dictates their style.

Nani - high,makes contact - maybe, and I do mean maybe slightly harsh.

Rafael - should have been a pen, when he handled on the line. Probably a red also.

Ramos challenge - penalty to man U.

Ferguson - lost his head for 15 mins, man U could have defended their lead, maybe even only letting one in, still would not have lost the tie. In the 15 mins he lost it, it was nearly tie over, a very good late rally by united nearly got back into it, but the damage was done by then.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			Interesting to hear Dermot Gallaghers view on the incident. Think he knows a bit about the game.

'The decision was harsh to say the least, but in fairness the Real player did Nani no favours whatsoever. At worst Nani catches the underside of his arm, certainly not the ribs as the guy has gone down and shown. I can't reiterate enough that Nani is watching the ball over his shoulder and there was no malice in him. At worst it is a yellow for dangerous play, but if I was referring the game I can not see by what stretch of the imagination I would have sent him off.'

I personally am not biased towards Man Utd, but that was not a sending off offence. As I said before every bicycle kick in the box could become a sending off offence. How many volleys do you see in a game at above waist height ? Are people saying you can only raise your foot to kick the ball, if you are 100% sure you are not going to catch an opponent. These incidents happen regularily in games, and players are not sent off. Nani watched the ball as it travelled 30 yards, he tried to control it over his shoulder, not smash it away, his foot caught a player that moved towards the ball behind his eye line. Two players trying to control the same ball. The clips that are being shown do not show the whole incident just the moment of impact.

I watched the incident live, have watched it replayed in slow motion many times and in my opinion it is not a sending off offence.
		
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Dermot Gallagher is the ex-premier ref, who has a Man U tattoo on his leg.

Just thought I'd let you know. Graham Poll said a red was right today. One man's opinion does not necessarily make it right or wrong.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



			Here go, tell me the Real player doesn't chest the ball first?

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/man.united-vs-real-madrid-nani-arbeloa-MQby6rX8DISNLhUY

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If you freeze the action, Nani's foot misses the ball by about three inches. They are both going for the ball. Nani is trying to control it, not kick out recklessly. Yes his foot is high, just above waist high, but you see that all the time in games. 

Strangely the only player I have heard say it was a sending off is Roy Keane.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Dermot Gallagher is the ex-premier ref, who has a Man U tattoo on his leg.

Just thought I'd let you know. Graham Poll said a red was right today. One man's opinion does not necessarily make it right or wrong.
		
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But isn't Graham Poll a current ref that has to toe the party line ? Gallagher ex ref can say what he thinks.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 6, 2013)

richart said:



			But isn't Graham Poll a current ref that has to toe the party line ? Gallagher ex ref can say what he thinks.
		
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Poll finished about 2 years ago.

Gallagher is an ex ref, who is still a man U fan. I'm not saying he wont call it as he believes it, but thought I'd give you more info, as to his background.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Birchy said:



			Nobody volleys a ball studs first though do they? What if his boot had caught his face? Still no red or is that now dangerous enough for a red?
		
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 His boot was just above waist height, so unlikely to catch him in the face. He was trying to control the ball, not kicking out. Yes if he had attempted a flying volley than that would have been different. His foot his hanging out to try and take the ball down.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Fish said:



http://gifninja.com/animated-gifs/146477/homer-simpson-mooning

View attachment 5035




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I really needed that image before I go to bed.


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## richart (Mar 6, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Poll finished about 2 years ago.

Gallagher is an ex ref, who is still a man U fan. I'm not saying he wont call it as he believes it, but thought I'd give you more info, as to his background.
		
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I see Gallagher on Sky sports reviewing the refs decisions, and he seems ok, though like most refs he does seem to favour his mates.

As a Reading supporter I have never experienced any referee bias.


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## shagster (Mar 7, 2013)

yes clear red - he could have seriously hurt someone as he was not aware of the opposition 
no one has pointed out har far off the ground the real player was. if he was on the ground, it would have been just below the neck - not dangerous- take the blinkers off. what would the outcome have been if the real player went to head the ball.
there does not need to be intent
the united attitude was typical from fergie rushing around to the idiot ferdinand - who should have the book thrown at him, the only thing they didnt do was chase the ref down the touchline, then they would deal with uefa, not the puppets at the DO FA

shagster


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## Stuart_Wales (Mar 7, 2013)

shagster said:



			yes clear red - he could have seriously hurt someone as he was not aware of the opposition 
no one has pointed out har far off the ground the real player was. if he was on the ground, it would have been just below the neck - not dangerous- take the blinkers off. what would the outcome have been if the real player went to head the ball.
there does not need to be intent
the united attitude was typical from fergie rushing around to the idiot ferdinand - who should have the book thrown at him, the only thing they didnt do was chase the ref down the touchline, then they would deal with uefa, not the puppets at the DO FA

shagster
		
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You need to get a yorkie into you and man up! 

If that was a red card, then expect to see 20+ red cards this weekend...


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## MadAdey (Mar 7, 2013)

Why is no one reading the rules of football during this debate. I have put up the rules for red cards and then the interpretation for serious foul play, which is one of the times a ref can show a straight red. Does anyone think that what Nani did was *NOT likely to endanger another player? 

*Everyone has a different opinion on this and obviously United fans feel hard done to, as it possibly cost them the game. But the facts still remain the same:
50/50 ball
Arbaloa gets there first knocking the ball forward
Nani is a split second later and puts his studs into him chest height in the side of the rib cage

So a set of studs into someone rib cage after the ball has been played is not dangerous then? If it is, then he is being punished under the rule of serious foul play which is a straight red. I will still say it was a bit harsh, but it just annoys me when people keep saying it was never a red card. The referee was justified in giving a red card for that incident whether you like it or not. 

I am just wondering how many more people on here have the ability to read minds through the TV screen, because people keep putting on what Nani was thinking at the time he did it..........

Regarding people going on about over head kicks, this is the rule on them:

*Playing in a dangerous manner*
Playing in a dangerous manner is de&#64257;ned as any action that, while 
trying to play the ball, threatens injury to someone (including the player 
himself). It is committed with an opponent nearby and prevents the opponent 
from playing the ball for fear of injury. 


A scissors or bicycle kick is permissible provided that, in the opinion of the 
referee, it is not dangerous to an opponent.


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## Mr_T (Mar 7, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Why is no one reading the rules of football during this debate. I have put up the rules for red cards and then the interpretation for serious foul play, which is one of the times a ref can show a straight red. Does anyone think that what Nani did was *NOT likely to endanger another player? 

*Everyone has a different opinion on this and obviously United fans feel hard done to, as it possibly cost them the game. But the facts still remain the same:
50/50 ball
Arbaloa gets there first knocking the ball forward
Nani is a split second later and puts his studs into him chest height in the side of the rib cage

So a set of studs into someone rib cage after the ball has been played is not dangerous then? If it is, then he is being punished under the rule of serious foul play which is a straight red. I will still say it was a bit harsh, but it just annoys me when people keep saying it was never a red card. The referee was justified in giving a red card for that incident whether you like it or not.
		
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I am biased here as a united fan but unless Im mistaken (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but the letter of the law was lunging and excessive force, I understand the fact that technically the players safety was in danger but Nani didn't lunge At arbeloa and didn't use excessive force as he was trying to control the ball, intent doesn't matter but surely the ref must look at the situation and take into account the context of the challenge? I doubt you would see the same challenge getting many red cards in the premier league


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2013)

Mr_T said:



			I am biased here as a united fan but unless Im mistaken (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but the letter of the law was lunging and excessive force, I understand the fact that technically the players safety was in danger but Nani didn't lunge At arbeloa and didn't use excessive force as he was trying to control the ball, intent doesn't matter but surely the ref must look at the situation and take into account the context of the challenge? I doubt you would see the same challenge getting many red cards in the premier league
		
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Whether he was attempting to control the ball or not is of no significance, the end result was his foot was high, he was late as the Real player has already chested the ball and as Nani was late his foot went into the Real players rib cage with the ball now gone forward off the Real players chest and when you consider the Real player was around 12" off the ground, Nani's foot is then very high with studs showing and so yes it could possibly be a red in any game in the world including the premiership.

His intentions of controlling the ball and their being no intent to harm are insignificant, it is the consequence of him being late, not getting the ball but getting the man and how the ref has seen that in the flash seconds he has.

Being 1 nil up at that time and putting himself in that almost 50/50 position where if he gets it wrong, which he did, he alone let his side down.

View attachment 5052


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 8, 2013)

Mr_T said:



			I doubt you would see the same challenge getting many red cards in the premier league
		
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DOUBT there's no doubt about it you would never see a red card in The PL for trying to control the ball.
It's just an excuse for the massive ABU brigade to have a pop and bask in Uniteds misery.

:rant: :rant:


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

Mr_T said:



			I am biased here as a united fan but unless Im mistaken (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but the letter of the law was lunging and excessive force, I understand the fact that technically the players safety was in danger but Nani didn't lunge At arbeloa and didn't use excessive force as he was trying to control the ball, intent doesn't matter but surely the ref must look at the situation and take into account the context of the challenge? I doubt you would see the same challenge getting many red cards in the premier league
		
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I have seen softer red cards in the premier league. The thing that people can't get their head around in this is by doing what he did he put the ref in a position where he had to make a decision to give him a red or yellow. Whether it was harsh or not, the ref was within his rights to send him off.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 8, 2013)

Well whatever your views, it's a moot point as it isn't going to be rescinded
It happened, best get used to it

I still harp on about Jeff Astle being yards offside scoring for west brom V Leeds in about 1971
Cost Leeds the title that did, grrrr


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 8, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well whatever your views, it's a moot point as it isn't going to be rescinded
It happened, best get used to it

I still harp on about Jeff Astle being yards offside scoring for west brom V Leeds in about 1971
Cost Leeds the title that did, grrrr
		
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thers loads like that Bobby Stokes in 76 cup final


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## RichardC (Mar 8, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well whatever your views, it's a moot point as it isn't going to be rescinded
It happened, best get used to it

I still harp on about Jeff Astle being yards offside scoring for west brom V Leeds in about 1971
Cost Leeds the title that did, grrrr
		
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Exactly right.

Applying the letter of the law to every incident will see football become a farce. I have seem far far worse that got nothing and much less that received the same.

United (and others) have had things go their way in the past, and this is one that did not.

No doubt that there will be more of this, as im sure the powers that be want all the physical side removed from the game.


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## Hooper (Mar 8, 2013)

I was disappointed that it had such a big impact on the game as I thought it was building up nicely afer a slow first half but I could only see one outcome from then on and it's boring when that happens.  Fair play to Jose for going on the offensive straight away as it paid off and respect to UTD for creating a couple of chances although they were easy saves IMO. English teams out of CL and top is 12 points clear. It's the best league in the world isn't it? ;-)


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 8, 2013)

Most of the leagues have runaway leaders this year though. Barcelona around 10 points clear, Bayern 15 points approx etc however I do agree the standard in the Prem is nowhere near what it was 7-8 years ago. The few big teams are that strong nobody else has a chance really. You can predict the winners of the top division most years in almost every league as there is only 2 or 3 teams that stand a chance. Bundesliga is probably the best league overall at the moment for me


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## smange (Mar 8, 2013)

For the anti United brigade who cant see the woods for the trees 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DRcdX9-U1Uk

Should this have been a red card? Or are you all deliberately avoiding talking about this incident as it makes nonsense of your "United get all the decisions" nonsense

Many times worse than Nanis' attempt to control the ball and also deliberate but sure it went against United so that will make it ok in many people's eyes.


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## Fish (Mar 8, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Most of the leagues have runaway leaders this year though. Barcelona around 10 points clear, Bayern 15 points approx etc however I do agree the standard in the Prem is nowhere near what it was 7-8 years ago. The few big teams are that strong nobody else has a chance really. You can predict the winners of the top division most years in almost every league as there is only 2 or 3 teams that stand a chance. Bundesliga is probably the best league overall at the moment for me
		
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My wife loves that I am like Manchester City, I stay on top for ages and then end up coming second :smirk:


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## Hooper (Mar 8, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Most of the leagues have runaway leaders this year though. Barcelona around 10 points clear, Bayern 15 points approx etc however I do agree the standard in the Prem is nowhere near what it was 7-8 years ago. The few big teams are that strong nobody else has a chance really. You can predict the winners of the top division most years in almost every league as there is only 2 or 3 teams that stand a chance. Bundesliga is probably the best league overall at the moment for me
		
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Agree. Even the EPL top teams are not that great compared to the others in Europe, UTD aside. I dream of the day when there are 10-12 teams all with a chance of winning the title but that is never going to happen.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 8, 2013)

and its only going to get worse not btter with the finicial fair play legistation comes in. 

most leagues are made up of 3/4 segments, where you have 3 maybe 4 teams max that can win it. 3/4 fighting for places in europe. then 6 or so mid table and 6 fighting to stave off relagation.


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## Hooper (Mar 8, 2013)

pbrown7582 said:



			and its only going to get worse not btter with the finicial fair play legistation comes in. 

most leagues are made up of 3/4 segments, where you have 3 maybe 4 teams max that can win it. 3/4 fighting for places in europe. then 6 or so mid table and 6 fighting to stave off relagation.
		
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Great I am looking forward to cancelling my subscription but hold on next month is going to be amazing, fantastic, the best ever...maybe I will wait and see. ;-)


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## In_The_Rough (Mar 8, 2013)

Hooper said:



			Agree. Even the EPL top teams are not that great compared to the others in Europe, UTD aside. I dream of the day when there are 10-12 teams all with a chance of winning the title but that is never going to happen.
		
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To be fair bud, there has never really been a time when a load of teams stand a chance. I can remember back in the day when there were 5-6 team that had a realistic chance and a few others were not that far behind. Now though the top 2 or 3 teams are that far in front it is a waste of time really. The bubble will burst eventually when that happens who knows until then its a 2 or 3 horse race every year.

With regards to the other comment about financial fair play I am sure teams will find ways round that as they are far smarter than the muppets at FIFA and UEFA. Anyway Platini might try and get that changed now that PSG have Arab owners and are spending money like water, another Â£150 mil for squad strengthning in the summer they are saying!!!


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

smange said:



			For the anti United brigade who cant see the woods for the trees 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DRcdX9-U1Uk

Should this have been a red card? Or are you all deliberately avoiding talking about this incident as it makes nonsense of your "United get all the decisions" nonsense

Many times worse than Nanis' attempt to control the ball and also deliberate but sure it went against United so that will make it ok in many people's eyes.
		
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I do not understand how this is many times worse than Nani? He has miscontrolled the ball then gone for it and hit Evra, dangerous attempt to play the ball definately. But obviously a lot worse than trying to get he ball and putting your nearly 6 foot off the ground, as that was ok? 

United fans need to get a grip and accept that a big decision has not gone their way.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 8, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I do not understand how this is many times worse than Nani? He has miscontrolled the ball then gone for it and hit Evra, dangerous attempt to play the ball definately. But obviously a lot worse than trying to get he ball and putting your nearly 6 foot off the ground, as that was ok? 

United fans need to get a grip and accept that a big decision has not gone their way.
		
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+1.  No studs up, nowhere near the same.


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## Kellfire (Mar 8, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			No studs up,
		
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You need new eyes.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 8, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You need new eyes.
		
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45 degrees to the deck at best, but more to the point, the foot went across the front of him and contact was with the leg, rather than the studs.  Unlike the challenge in question, where the studs were most definitely up and definitely made contact.  My eyes tell me there's no comparison between the two tackles, and on that basis there's not a lot wrong with them.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 8, 2013)

I suppose if you are used to getting decisions like this (relevant bits from 50 seconds on)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bpitiO90c4

then you would feel hard done by at Nani's sending off.

But then United never get a decision do they?


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			I suppose if you are used to getting decisions like this (relevant bits from 50 seconds on)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bpitiO90c4

then you would feel hard done by at Nani's sending off.

But then United never get a decision do they? 

Click to expand...

This is the problem Blue, moan on and on about a decision that did not go their way. I have seen a few dodgy ones this year against my team but I do not go on about it.

Why will the United fans not accept that under the rules of the game the referee was within his rights to send him off for serious foul play on the fact that in going for the ball Nani endangered and opponent. 

I will still stand by what I say in I think it was harsh but the ref used a rule of the game as laid out in the FIFA rule book that justified in him showing the red card to Nani.

Has Fergie gone to UEFA yet to argue the red card?


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## Kellfire (Mar 8, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			This is the problem Blue, moan on and on about a decision that did not go their way. I have seen a few dodgy ones this year against my team but I do not go on about it.

Why will the United fans not accept that under the rules of the game the referee was within his rights to send him off for serious foul play on the fact that in going for the ball Nani endangered and opponent. 

I will still stand by what I say in I think it was harsh but the ref used a rule of the game as laid out in the FIFA rule book that justified in him showing the red card to Nani.

Has Fergie gone to UEFA yet to argue the red card?
		
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United fan here and I totally accept why he gave a red even if I feel a yellow was warranted. The inconsistency gets me, I believe Arbeloa's booking was worthy of the same punishment so I believe both should have been booked or sent off.


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			United fan here and I totally accept why he gave a red even if I feel a yellow was warranted. The inconsistency gets me, I believe Arbeloa's booking was worthy of the same punishment so I believe both should have been booked or sent off.
		
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Fair point mate. I am just getting annoyed with constantly hearing from United fans that moan that it was never a red card in a million years. Your the first one that I have heard accept the referee was within his rights to give it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 8, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Fair point mate. I am just getting annoyed with constantly hearing from United fans that moan that it was never a red card in a million years. Your the first one that I have heard accept the referee was within his rights to give it.
		
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Yea I've no time for the more blinkered of our fans.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 8, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			This is the problem Blue, moan on and on about a decision that did not go their way. I have seen a few dodgy ones this year against my team but I do not go on about it.

Why will the United fans not accept that under the rules of the game the referee was within his rights to send him off for serious foul play on the fact that in going for the ball Nani endangered and opponent. 

I will still stand by what I say in I think it was harsh but the ref used a rule of the game as laid out in the FIFA rule book that justified in him showing the red card to Nani.

Has Fergie gone to UEFA yet to argue the red card?
		
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Every team gets them given against them Adey, it's the nature of the game and it isn't helped by Sky's super-slo-mo replays from 87 different angles, every one of them not from the angle that the ref had one, which are then analysed by the ex-pros in the studio who never knew the rules when they played, let alone have studied them since, and on such expert analysis, armchair fans accept it as fact that he was hard done to.  It's Europe, any foot above knee high runs the risk & this was well above knee high.

I have no doubt that Nani was only going for the ball, but that is irrelevant under the rules.  I can have some degree of sympathy with the fact that the rules are applied so differently, as this video proves.  But my acid test for this one is what would Fergie have done had it been Arbeloa on Nani.  And we all know the answer to that one.

As to why United fans can't accept that they get more go for them than against, your guess is as good as mine.


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## Foxholer (Mar 8, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Fair point mate. I am just getting annoyed with constantly hearing from United fans that moan that it was never a red card in a million years. Your the first one that I have heard accept the referee was within his rights to give it.
		
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From what I understand, Red Card is the standard 'punishment' for this offence in the rest of Europe.

I believe it would have been a Yellow at worst in Premiere League - as the commentators forecast.

While there is obviously an interpretation/assessment element in each case, once a Ref determines which clause of a Rule the offence comes under, it is not a case of 'within his rights' but 'obliged' or 'shall'.


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Every team gets them given against them Adey, it's the nature of the game and it isn't helped by Sky's super-slo-mo replays from 87 different angles, every one of them not from the angle that the ref had one, which are then analysed by the ex-pros in the studio who never knew the rules when they played, let alone have studied them since, and on such expert analysis, armchair fans accept it as fact that he was hard done to.  It's Europe, any foot above knee high runs the risk & this was well above knee high.

I have no doubt that Nani was only going for the ball, but that is irrelevant under the rules.  I can have some degree of sympathy with the fact that the rules are applied so differently, as this video proves.  But my acid test for this one is what would Fergie have done had it been Arbeloa on Nani.  And we all know the answer to that one.

As to why United fans can't accept that they get more go for them than against, your guess is as good as mine.
		
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It is the so called experts on the TV that are the problem, I am sure that not one of them have ever read the rules. 

Here are some of the mazing rules that they use that appear no where in the FIFA rule book that I was reading:

He was not looking at the player
He showed no intent
He was trying to play the ball
He did know the player was there
and so many more that you hear from them.

All of the above you hear the so called experts using, but I do not remember reading them in the rule book, problem is that people take it as gospel from them. Please correct me if I am wrong and tell me where in the rule book those statements are.


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## Kellfire (Mar 8, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			As to why United fans can't accept that they get more go for them than against, your guess is as good as mine.
		
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It simply isn't true, that's why.

When we have stone wall penalty decisions or red cards goes against us, it very often doesn't affect the end result of the game so it all gets lost in the mix. This is the same of other top teams so you'd do well to open your eyes to it; people feel the same about your club.

Notice how no one is talking about the penalty we should have had on Tuesday late on? Would it have changed things? Probably not. But remember Munich 1999...

And remember the sending off that never was in Madrid when Evra was taken out when clean through? Nope, thought not... because we ended up getting a draw and that was considered enough to give us a good result. 

Game after game we see decisions go for AND against us just like every other team.

Check out the debateable decisions website that shows how decisions widely agreed to be wrong actually impacted us last season... It's grim reading for a Man Utd fan.


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## MadAdey (Mar 8, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			From what I understand, Red Card is the standard 'punishment' for this offence in the rest of Europe.

I believe it would have been a Yellow at worst in Premiere League - as the commentators forecast.

While there is obviously an interpretation/assessment element in each case, once a Ref determines which clause of a Rule the offence comes under, it is not a case of 'within his rights' but 'obliged' or 'shall'.
		
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I know that the referee has to send him off, if he sees it as serious foul play. The reason I use the term "within his rights" is that I am trying to make the point that even though it may have been harsh, the referee was not wrong to determine it as serious foul play, in his opinion.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 8, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			It simply isn't true, that's why.

When we have stone wall penalty decisions or red cards goes against us, it very often doesn't affect the end result of the game so it all gets lost in the mix. This is the same of other top teams so you'd do well to open your eyes to it; people feel the same about your club.

Notice how no one is talking about the penalty we should have had on Tuesday late on? Would it have changed things? Probably not. But remember Munich 1999...

And remember the sending off that never was in Madrid when Evra was taken out when clean through? Nope, thought not... because we ended up getting a draw and that was considered enough to give us a good result. 

Game after game we see decisions go for AND against us just like every other team.

Check out the debateable decisions website that shows how decisions widely agreed to be wrong actually impacted us last season... It's grim reading for a Man Utd fan.
		
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Speak to the vast majority of fans and they would agree that it is true; Man Utd get far more go their way than against them.  When teams are at the top of their game, and you have been for a while, you tend to get the rub.  Add to that, that referees are scared of upsetting Fergie and as a consequence on balance you get more go your way than against you.  Even the FA seem to apply double standards; Allardyce makes adverse comments about the referee, immediately charged, Fergie does the same and is "invited to explain" his comments before eventually being charged.  

It's not that people aren't talking about the penalty you didn't get the other night, or indeed the penalty that Madrid didn't get for Rafael's handball, they just can't be heard for all the whining about Nani's dismissal.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Speak to the vast majority of fans and they would agree that it is true; Man Utd get far more go their way than against them.  When teams are at the top of their game, and you have been for a while, you tend to get the rub.  Add to that, that referees are scared of upsetting Fergie and as a consequence on balance you get more go your way than against you.  Even the FA seem to apply double standards; Allardyce makes adverse comments about the referee, immediately charged, Fergie does the same and is "invited to explain" his comments before eventually being charged.  

It's not that people aren't talking about the penalty you didn't get the other night, or indeed the penalty that Madrid didn't get for Rafael's handball, they just can't be heard for all the whining about Nani's dismissal.
		
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Do you really believe that nonsense in your first paragraph? There's a reason that it's fans of other clubs that think we get more decisions...

As for Rafael, good one. No intent, no handball.


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## richart (Mar 9, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Why will the United fans not accept that under the rules of the game the referee was within his rights to send him off for serious foul play on the fact that in going for the ball Nani endangered and opponent.
		
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I am not a Man Utd fan, but I am a football fan.

I still do not think that was a sending off offence, yellow card yes. It was not serious foul play, but reckless in my opinion.

Definition of reckless layer has acted with complete disregard of the danger or consequence for his opponent. Punishment shall be cautioned.

Definition of serious foul play. Using excessive force (note that word) means the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force, and is in danger of injuring his opponent.

Nani was trying to control the ball. His leg and ankle were limp as he tried to cushion the ball on his foot. Anyone that has played the game will know that is how you try and control a high dropping ball. You do not use force to do so. If  Nani had been trying to volley the ball way, then he may well have been using excessive force, but he was not. I can't think of another player I have seen sent off for trying to control a ball, and I have seen a lot of games over a lot of years.

The idea that a high foot is automatically a sending off offence is rubbish as well. Yes referees in Europe will give a foul for a high foot more than in England, but they don't send off every player that does it. Some may even be booked, but to be sent off there needs to be excessive force. In all the years I have played the game, and watched I have never seen a player sent off for trying to control a ball.

As I mentioned before I do not support Man Utd. I just know what I saw. Football is a game of opinions, and the above is mine.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 9, 2013)

richart said:



			I am not a Man Utd fan, but I am a football fan.

I still do not think that was a sending off offence, yellow card yes. It was not serious foul play, but reckless in my opinion.

Definition of reckless layer has acted with complete disregard of the danger or consequence for his opponent. Punishment shall be cautioned.

Definition of serious foul play. Using excessive force (note that word) means the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force, and is in danger of injuring his opponent.

Nani was trying to control the ball. His leg and ankle were limp as he tried to cushion the ball on his foot. Anyone that has played the game will know that is how you try and control a high dropping ball. You do not use force to do so. If  Nani had been trying to volley the ball way, then he may well have been using excessive force, but he was not. I can't think of another player I have seen sent off for trying to control a ball, and I have seen a lot of games over a lot of years.

The idea that a high foot is automatically a sending off offence is rubbish as well. Yes referees in Europe will give a foul for a high foot more than in England, but they don't send off every player that does it. Some may even be booked, but to be sent off there needs to be excessive force. In all the years I have played the game, and watched I have never seen a player sent off for try and control a ball.

As I mentioned before I do not support Man Utd. I just know what I saw. Football is a game of opinions, and the above is mine.
		
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:whoo: :clap: :clap: :thup: 

A sensible Neutral voice! :lol:


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Do you really believe that nonsense in your first paragraph? There's a reason that it's fans of other clubs that think we get more decisions...

As for Rafael, good one. No intent, no handball.
		
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So you also think Rafael's handball wasn't a penalty??????


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			So you also think Rafael's handball wasn't a penalty??????
		
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There was no handball as per the rules, so no it obviously wasn't a penalty.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There was no handball as per the rules, so no it obviously wasn't a penalty.
		
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Isn't one of the few rules that mentions intent, to do with handball?


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Isn't one of the few rules that mentions intent, to do with handball?
		
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Yep. And clearly it was ball to arm so no foul.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Yep. And clearly it was ball to arm so no foul.
		
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So Rafael normally runs around with his forearm a foot above his forehead.

I think it's you who wants to look up the word biased.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN2TB2PaGac

Clearly no intent.

Seriously, why do people with an agenda try to discuss football rationally. :/


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN2TB2PaGac

Clearly no intent.

Seriously, why do people with an agenda try to discuss football rationally. :/
		
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I didn't have to watch it, but did.

How can you say he hasn't put his hand up to block the header (thereby making his hand a target). I don't think any other Man U fans have said this wasn't a penalty. Yes, I hate man U, but as a few man U fans on here will tell you, I'll say it fair.

Wellbeck should have had a pen, Arebeloa was lucky to stay on, Nani's was harsh, but Rafael's was defo a pen. No doubt.

Ask yourself this if Rafael would have been Ramos - would you have appealed, damn right you would.

Take your man U tinted glasses off, snuggle under your Man U quilt, and see it for what it was, a penalty.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ask yourself this if Rafael would have been Ramos - would you have appealed, damn right you would.
		
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No. 

You have such a warped view of things.

No intent, CLEARLY.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 9, 2013)

I disagree with 90% of refereeing decisions that are made week in week out regardless of which teams are playing.

Football now is all about gaining advantage now,  50/50 tackles always end up with a player being booked because 1 player came off worse, its pathetic really and its down to the idiots who are running the game.

Let's get football back to good,solid competitive tackling, jib these headteacher like refs and start refereeing using common sense and not a rule book.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			No. 

You have such a warped view of things.

No intent, CLEARLY.
		
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No mate I don't get obsessed with Man U.

So do you think:-

Arebeloa should have been sent off.

nani's wasn't even a booking.

Wellbeck (or was it Evra)'s was a pen.

Rafael's wasn't a pen.


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## smange (Mar 9, 2013)

Stuart_C said:



			Let's get football back to good,solid competitive tackling, jib these headteacher like refs and start refereeing using common sense and not a rule book.
		
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No chance of football ever returning to the days when a hard tackle was just part and parcel of the game, in fact there is more chance of it becoming a non contact sport and all types of tackles being banned.

It pains me to say it but the game that I love is dead and in its place we have a sterile, passionless impersonation.

Won't be long before the powers that be n football have turned it into a basketball-esque sport with no contact and just end to end attacks ending in crazy scorelines.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			No mate I don't get obsessed with Man U.

So do you think:-

Arebeloa should have been sent off.

nani's wasn't even a booking.

Wellbeck (or was it Evra)'s was a pen.

Rafael's wasn't a pen.
		
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Arbeloa - yellow

Nani - yellow 

Evra in first leg - clear red

Rafael - no pen, no intent as per the rules.

Why do people like you try and twist things?


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

smange said:



			No chance of football ever returning to the days when a hard tackle was just part and parcel of the game, in fact there is more chance of it becoming a non contact sport and all types of tackles being banned.

It pains me to say it but the game that I love is dead and in its place we have a sterile, passionless impersonation.

Won't be long before the powers that be n football have turned it into a basketball-esque sport with no contact and just end to end attacks ending in crazy scorelines.
		
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Agreed - we can thank Sepp blatter for that - how can one man wield so much power?


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Arbeloa - yellow

Nani - yellow 

Evra in first leg - clear red

Rafael - no pen, no intent as per the rules.

Why do people like you try and twist things?
		
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What am I trying to twist?

The other penalty you should have had was in the 2nd leg of the 2nd half, Ramos fouled either Wellbeck or Evra on the edge of the box.

Ok then, why was rafael's hand a foot above his head, and do you think that is a natural position when trying to head a ball off the line.

You know in your heart of hearts that it is not.  I have seen loads of man U fans of football365 say that Rafael's was a pen.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Arbeloa - yellow

Nani - yellow 

Evra in first leg - clear red

Rafael - no pen, no intent as per the rules.

Why do people like you try and twist things?
		
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Which Arbeloa booking are you on about?

He got booked for a foul that was harsh imo, I can't remember another one.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			What am I trying to twist?

The other penalty you should have had was in the 2nd leg of the 2nd half, Ramos fouled either Wellbeck or Evra on the edge of the box.

Ok then, why was rafael's hand a foot above his head, and do you think that is a natural position when trying to head a ball off the line.

You know in your heart of hearts that it is not.  I have seen loads of man U fans of football365 say that Rafael's was a pen.
		
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A foot above his head?

Lol.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			A foot above his head?

Lol.
		
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There's no hope for some.

Maybe it's my cheap laptop screen, but it is clearly a foot above his head.

Maybe you're watching it on a 1D narrow minded Ferguson telly, filtered through the alien thought beams of siralex, shown on a loop on MUTV.

I can't keep up with that.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 10, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Do you really believe that nonsense in your first paragraph? There's a reason that it's fans of other clubs that think we get more decisions...

As for Rafael, good one. No intent, no handball.
		
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Rafael first; there are 7 items that Uefa list that referees should consider when adjudging whether or not a handball is *deliberate* or not, listed here;

http://www.referee.ffu.org.ua/img/teams/c_5.pdf

Are his arms in a natural position?  No, the one in question is clearly above his head and NOT protecting his face.  Is he trying to make himself bigger?  Probably.  Does he try to avoid the ball striking him?  Doesn't seem to.  Could he avoid the ball striking him?  Probably.  Deliberate handball, a penalty and a sending off is therefore not an unreasonable conclusion under Uefa's refereeing guidance.  

Do I believe that "nonsense" in my first paragraph?  Absolutely!  When I discuss football with other people, regardless of who they support the team that everyone agrees gets the rub of the green far more often than anybody else is Utd.  They also agree that Ferguson gets away with murder.  Try the comments under this link if you don't believe me;

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/premier-league-fa-asks-ferguson-explain-comments-182412406.html 

Allardyce; comments made after game at Old Trafford (and curiously related to a Rafael handball that wasn't given......) on Wednesday 16th, reported as charged by the Daily Mail on Friday 18th.  Ferguson makes similar comments on January 20th, invited to explain comments on the 21st, charged on the 29th (Metro).  So that's clearly equal treatment by the FA, obviously, and I'm talking rot. 

As you say, there's a reason why other fans think you get more decisions.  It's because you do.


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## pbrown7582 (Mar 10, 2013)

Let's hope Howard plays a blinder today 2 blue sendings off and at least one red pen! :rofl:


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## smange (Mar 10, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Rafael first; there are 7 items that Uefa list that referees should consider when adjudging whether or not a handball is *deliberate* or not, listed here;

http://www.referee.ffu.org.ua/img/teams/c_5.pdf

Are his arms in a natural position?  No, the one in question is clearly above his head and NOT protecting his face.  Is he trying to make himself bigger?  Probably.  Does he try to avoid the ball striking him?  Doesn't seem to.  Could he avoid the ball striking him?  Probably.  Deliberate handball, a penalty and a sending off is therefore not an unreasonable conclusion under Uefa's refereeing guidance.  

Do I believe that "nonsense" in my first paragraph?  Absolutely!  When I discuss football with other people, regardless of who they support the team that everyone agrees gets the rub of the green far more often than anybody else is Utd.  They also agree that Ferguson gets away with murder.  Try the comments under this link if you don't believe me;

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/premier-league-fa-asks-ferguson-explain-comments-182412406.html 

Allardyce; comments made after game at Old Trafford (and curiously related to a Rafael handball that wasn't given......) on Wednesday 16th, reported as charged by the Daily Mail on Friday 18th.  Ferguson makes similar comments on January 20th, invited to explain comments on the 21st, charged on the 29th (Metro).  So that's clearly equal treatment by the FA, obviously, and I'm talking rot. 

As you say, there's a reason why other fans think you get more decisions.  It's because you do.
		
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Your starting to sound like Rafa.......FACT


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## Imurg (Mar 10, 2013)

Sweet Jesus - anyone would think Football's important........

It's like the Anchoring debate - you'll have those for and against and no minds will be changed.
Do Utd get more decisions than others?

As it's all down to opinion you'll never get an answer......


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 10, 2013)

smange said:



			Your starting to sound like Rafa.......FACT 

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Now THAT is a concern..... FACT!!


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## deanobillquay (Mar 10, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			There's no hope for some.

Maybe it's my cheap laptop screen, but it is clearly a foot above his head.

Maybe you're watching it on a 1D narrow minded Ferguson telly, filtered through the alien thought beams of siralex, shown on a loop on MUTV.

I can't keep up with that.
		
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Absolute class fella


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## MadAdey (Mar 10, 2013)

It was a joke of a refereeing display over the 2 legs. This is how I see the constant cock ups that the referee made:

First leg:

Verane drags down Evra and did not get the red card he deserved.

Second leg:

Raphael should have been sent off, Madrid should of had a penalty.
Nani gets sent off, harsh but the ref did have justification by the letter of the law.
United should have had a penalty.

So over the 2 legs IMO the ref got 5 big decisions wrong. 2 of them went in United's favour 3 did not.


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