# Flags Out????



## stueyginger (Apr 12, 2021)

Just a thread to show my frustration that we still cannot lift a flag out whilst playing competitive golf.

Does anyone have any idea when they will be allowed to be removed?

I mean most golfers wear a glove, carry a towel to flags and bunker rakes for that matter could easily be removed 'safely'

Personally, I think it's getting beyond a joke, no different from taking a trolley from the side of Tesco, or filling your car up with fuel.

Being an aggressive putter, I've had several bounce outs - don't mind the flag being in from distance but 10ft and under it has to be out for me!!


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## sweaty sock (Apr 12, 2021)

Not before 12th June.

Im with you, I hated the rule change but at least I could work around it.  

Still - if its saved a single life its got to be worth it.

Rakes in bunkers are hopefully in the same boat...


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

I wouldn't expect it soon. Probably not even June 12th, it'll be some later date when they're sure everyone's been vaccinated I expect.


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## fundy (Apr 12, 2021)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/...aning-surfaces.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur


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## SaintHacker (Apr 12, 2021)

I agree its a ridiculous rule. You pick up a ball thats been rolling through god knows what, but you cant touch the flagstick. If you're that worried about it just sanitise your hands after every hole🙄 But there you are, its the rule for the time being so we have to put up with it


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2021)

I had a putt bounce out this morning on a shortish putt where normally, I would have had the flag out. 

In the scheme of things,  there are bigger fish to fry.   I've no idea if handling the flag stick is covid dangerous or not... but if we have to be flexible to keep playing (and politicians out of our faces) so be it!


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## JollyRedDevil (Apr 12, 2021)

At Radcliffe-on-Trent in Nottingham they have a local rule that if your ball hits the flag, it's considered holed.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

JollyRedDevil said:



			At Radcliffe-on-Trent in Nottingham they have a local rule that if your ball hits the flag, it's considered holed.
		
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I imagine people are hitting their putts a lot harder as a result then?


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## SaintHacker (Apr 12, 2021)

JollyRedDevil said:



			At Radcliffe-on-Trent in Nottingham they have a local rule that if your ball hits the flag, it's considered holed.
		
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Is this an actual sanctioned local rule or just an agreement between mates?


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

I would hope by June....but who knows? I still don't get being able to go to the shops/hairdresser etc etc and not be able to go to the pub.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

It is a mystery to me why golfers in the UK are doing this. Just tell people "No, it is ridiculous. You have not thought this through and we are not going to be dictated to or have our freedoms limited by people with no evidence to back up their assertion." I live in the third worse hit state in the USA and there was never a golf ban, here. People went through a phase of not touching the flag but people pretty quickly realized there are far more likely ways to catch COVID then touching a metal pole in the middle of the countryside very briefly.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			It is a mystery to me why golfers in the UK are doing this. Just tell people "No, it is ridiculous. You have not thought this through and we are not going to be dictated to or have our freedoms limited by people with no evidence to back up their assertion." I live in the third worse hit state in the USA and there was never a golf ban, here. People went through a phase of not touching the flag but people pretty quickly realized there are far more likely ways to catch COVID then touching a metal pole in the middle of the countryside very briefly.
		
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Brilliant idea, we all ignore the (extremely minor) restrictions until they shut down all the courses again for another month. Dear me.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2021)

What's June 12th got to do with anything?

It's the 21st?

But still. Leave them in forever.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Brilliant idea, we all ignore the (extremely minor) restrictions until they shut down all the courses again for another month. Dear me.
		
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There is something about the UK mindset that seems to love giving up the majority of its rights when the Government says to do so. Just tell them: "We are not shutting our course. It is a private business. People are educated and informed enough to make their own decisions." The lack of trust UK Governments in its population, and UK management has in its workforce when I lived in the UK, with all their red tape and "never question a supervisor or an order" mentality was one of my biggest motivating factors to leave. Sad to see twenty years later, the same mentality still prevails.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			There is something about the UK mindset that seems to love giving up the majority of its rights when the Government says to do so. Just tell them: "We are not shutting our course. It is a private business. People are educated and informed enough to make their own decisions." The lack of trust UK Governments in its population, and UK management has in its workforce when I lived in the UK, with all their red tape and "never question a supervisor or an order" mentality was one of my biggest motivating factors to leave. Sad to see twenty years later, the same mentality still prevails.
		
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Then everyone gets hit with fines that I'm sure many can't afford. All so we can touch a flagstick that isn't even necessary? Grow up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 12, 2021)

JollyRedDevil said:



			At Radcliffe-on-Trent in Nottingham they have a local rule that if your ball hits the flag, it's considered holed.
		
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😂😂 too obvious 



craigstardis1976 said:



			It is a mystery to me why golfers in the UK are doing this. Just tell people "No, it is ridiculous. You have not thought this through and we are not going to be dictated to or have our freedoms limited by people with no evidence to back up their assertion." I live in the third worse hit state in the USA and there was never a golf ban, here. People went through a phase of not touching the flag but people pretty quickly realized there are far more likely ways to catch COVID then touching a metal pole in the middle of the countryside very briefly.
		
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The mystery is easily solved 

Because the games governing bodies have decided upon a set of rules to allow the game to restart up during Covid restrictions and all clubs must follow those rules or face sanctions of closure or fines . 
People are more than happy to continue to follow the restrictions to ensure we do our bit to combat this virus. 




pauljames87 said:



			What's June 12th got to do with anything?

It's the 21st?

But still. Leave them in forever.
		
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Flags will not be “left in forever”


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What's June 12th got to do with anything?

It's the 21st?

But still. Leave them in forever.
		
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I actually wouldn't mind. Although, from inside 10 feet I kind of like the flag out. Now the question I have asked myself.....because I walk a lot and come up with these stupid questions over the couple hours I'm out there......

Ifffffff, the flag HAD to be left in forever. How much bigger would the hole have to be to allow the same chance of the ball going in the hole? 1/2 inch....1 inch (sorry, not a mm person). Must be some bored math person out there?


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## Ethan (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			There is something about the UK mindset that seems to love giving up the majority of its rights when the Government says to do so. Just tell them: "We are not shutting our course. It is a private business. *People are educated and informed enough to make their own decisions*." The lack of trust UK Governments in its population, and UK management has in its workforce when I lived in the UK, with all their red tape and "never question a supervisor or an order" mentality was one of my biggest motivating factors to leave. Sad to see twenty years later, the same mentality still prevails.
		
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Comedy gold. I didn't know you American chaps did sarcasm and satire. 

You are in the third worst affected US state. And you didn't have a golf ban, and presumably didn't do a bunch of other stuff. Mmm, could those be connected?


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Comedy gold. I didn't know you American chaps did sarcasm and satire.

You are in the third worst affected US state. And you didn't have a golf ban, and presumably didn't do a bunch of other stuff. Mmm, could those be connected?
		
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They forgot to gargle with Domestos?


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## D-S (Apr 12, 2021)

We use these thin flags with the small metal insert to ensure the ball doesn’t fall to the bottom of the hole. Seems the best, most ‘normal’ solution I’ve seen so far.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I actually wouldn't mind. Although, from inside 10 feet I kind of like the flag out. Now the question I have asked myself.....because I walk a lot and come up with these stupid questions over the couple hours I'm out there......

Ifffffff, the flag HAD to be left in forever. How much bigger would the hole have to be to allow the same chance of the ball going in the hole? 1/2 inch....1 inch (sorry, not a mm person). Must be some bored math person out there?
		
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https://golf.com/news/tournaments/d...hould-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/

Science different


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

I'm an American....but....resist the Communist golf rules czar? Live free or die? ....all I can think of is extremist. It's golf.  Now if they came for my beer and ice cream.....there could be serious repercussions.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://golf.com/news/tournaments/d...hould-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/

Science different
		
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I like the flag in. With my (granted....not quite normal) way of thinking......skinny flag at the bottom and make the hole a half inch wider.....I'm fine with that. 

Iffff, for some reason the flag was a lot wider (hole still the same width)......there wouldn't be a lot of room for error on speed. You would have to hit it just the right speed to get the ball to stay in the hole......I can do that......if I hit it too fast it pops out...got it.....why can't people adjust? If it's uphill, I hit it harder.....downhill, I hit it easier. It's not rocket science.


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## davidy233 (Apr 12, 2021)

stueyginger said:



			Just a thread to show my frustration that we still cannot lift a flag out whilst playing competitive golf.

Does anyone have any idea when they will be allowed to be removed?

I mean most golfers wear a glove, carry a towel to flags and bunker rakes for that matter could easily be removed 'safely'

Personally, I think it's getting beyond a joke, no different from taking a trolley from the side of Tesco, or filling your car up with fuel.

Being an aggressive putter, I've had several bounce outs - don't mind the flag being in from distance but 10ft and under it has to be out for me!!
		
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Surprised it took so long after England allowed golf again for this to come up


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## KenL (Apr 12, 2021)

D-S said:



			We use these thin flags with the small metal insert to ensure the ball doesn’t fall to the bottom of the hole. Seems the best, most ‘normal’ solution I’ve seen so far.
		
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My club has those too, brilliant solution.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Part of my thinking.....why couldn't England golf come up with the "best" way to have the flag left in? With weird contraption? With something in the hole to stop the ball from dropping in too far? Make *one decision*....and everybody deals with it.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I actually wouldn't mind. Although, from inside 10 feet I kind of like the flag out. Now the question I have asked myself.....because I walk a lot and come up with these stupid questions over the couple hours I'm out there......

Ifffffff, the flag HAD to be left in forever. How much bigger would the hole have to be to allow the same chance of the ball going in the hole? 1/2 inch....1 inch (sorry, not a mm person). Must be some bored math person out there?
		
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree, back when the rule change came in some people proved that the flag being in actually makes the ball more likely to drop in some cases. So no future in the idea that the hole would have to be made bigger.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I think you're barking up the wrong tree, back when the rule change came in some people proved that the flag being in actually makes the ball more likely to drop in some cases. So no future in the idea that the hole would have to be made bigger.
		
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No....my barking is on mark. The people who like the flag out....just like the flag out. As I have stated a number of times....I like the flag in...I'd like the flag in all of the time, at least if it was a skinny flag at the bottom.

I would like the flag out when I'm close.....but I'd rather just have a rule that leaves the flag in all of the time. I will adjust.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			No....my barking is on mark. The people who like the flag out....just like the flag out. As I have stated a number of times....I like the flag in...I'd like the flag in all of the time, at least if it was a skinny flag at the bottom.
		
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None of that has anything to do with what I was talking about? You were going on about how much bigger the hole would have to be. Answer = no bigger.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			None of that has anything to do with what I was talking about? You were going on about how much bigger the hole would have to be. Answer = no bigger.
		
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Are there studies that disagree? Then why do pro's quite often pull the flag out?


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Are there studies that disagree? Then why do pro's quite often pull the flag out?
		
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You were quite right when you stated it is down to the individual and their preference, and there are other factors beyond the mathematical. I only wanted to point out that your apparent assumption that leaving the flag reduces the chance of the ball dropping wasn't completely correct. 

My own preference when we had the choice was to leave them in for most putts, but take them out for the three or four footers that you would hope to hole, as I prefer to hit them a bit more firmly to try and take the break out, but with the flag in you can't. But I'm not so mad about it that I want to be able to remove them again, I'll just make do with whatever it is.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			It is a mystery to me why golfers in the UK are doing this. Just tell people "No, it is ridiculous. You have not thought this through and we are not going to be dictated to or have our freedoms limited by people with no evidence to back up their assertion." I live in the third worse hit state in the USA and there was never a golf ban, here. People went through a phase of not touching the flag but people pretty quickly realized there are far more likely ways to catch COVID then touching a metal pole in the middle of the countryside very briefly.
		
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Have you ever wondered why your state is the 3rd worst affected? 🙄


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## chrisd (Apr 12, 2021)

We've recently changed from the foam in the cup, to the disk you pull up to pop the ball out, it seems to me that the cover that goes over the flag stick is knocking more putts out than the other method of stopping the ball dropping to the bottom of the cup after hitting the actual flagstick


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			You were quite right when you stated it is down to the individual and their preference, and there are other factors beyond the mathematical. I only wanted to point out that your apparent assumption that leaving the flag reduces the chance of the ball dropping wasn't completely correct.

My own preference when we had the choice was to leave them in for most putts, but take them out for the three or four footers that you would hope to hole, as I prefer to hit them a bit more firmly to try and take the break out, but with the flag in you can't. But I'm not so mad about it that I want to be able to remove them again, I'll just make do with whatever it is.
		
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Hmmm.....not sure where I stated "I only wanted to point out that your apparent assumption that leaving the flag reduces the chance of the ball dropping wasn't completely correct".......I've always been a leave the flag in supporter. I'm fine with the flag in, always have been. Just deal with it being in....hit the ball a little easier.....


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## USER1999 (Apr 12, 2021)

D-S said:



			We use these thin flags with the small metal insert to ensure the ball doesn’t fall to the bottom of the hole. Seems the best, most ‘normal’ solution I’ve seen so far.
		
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These are expensive pins. My club cannot afford these. We lose a pin every 10 days according to the green keepers. It soon adds up. The canal must be full of the things.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			These are expensive pins. My club cannot afford these. We lose a pin every 10 days according to the green keepers. It soon adds up. The canal must be full of the things.
		
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Every 10 days!!! I'd put more ! in there but.....that's.......strange.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Have you ever wondered why your state is the 3rd worst affected? 🙄
		
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Primarily because we are one of the most transient states in the nation. And to shut down the economy of the state would have led to severe economic hardship for many people. What is for certain is there absolutely no evidence COVID-19 was passed to others from briefly touching a golf flag.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Comedy gold. I didn't know you American chaps did sarcasm and satire.

You are in the third worst affected US state. And you didn't have a golf ban, and presumably didn't do a bunch of other stuff. Mmm, could those be connected?
		
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Are you suggesting British people are not well educated enough to decide for themselves but need the Government to do it for them? We were the third worse state primarily because we are a state with a huge transitory population. Not because a very small percentage of the population were briefly touching golf flags.


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## CliveW (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Are there studies that disagree? Then why do pro's quite often pull the flag out?
		
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Tour pros and their caddies are tested for covid and self isolate before matches. Flagsticks are sanitised daily before games. Unfortunately we don't have that privilege on our courses.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Primarily because we are one of the most transient states in the nation. And to shut down the economy of the state would have led to severe economic hardship for many people. *What is for certain is there absolutely no evidence COVID-19 was passed to others from briefly touching a golf flag*.
		
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For certain eh?


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			😂😂 too obvious



The mystery is easily solved

Because the games governing bodies have decided upon a set of rules to allow the game to restart up during Covid restrictions and all clubs must follow those rules or face sanctions of closure or fines .
People are more than happy to continue to follow the restrictions to ensure we do our bit to combat this virus.



Flags will not be “left in forever”
		
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Sanctions, closures or fines from who? People should not give up that kind of power.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

CliveW said:



			Tour pros and their caddies are tested for covid and self isolate before matches. Flagsticks are sanitised daily before games. Unfortunately we don't have that privilege on our courses.
		
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Wasn't a Covid type statement.....more of a flag out statement......


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			For certain eh?
		
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I have found no evidence to support anyone claiming that briefly touching golf flags passes COVID-19 from one person to another.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 12, 2021)

Seems there are two “arguments” going on 

1. The reason why the flags are currently left in - Covid restrictions and the conditions that governing bodies have stated we must currently follow 

2. The age old debate about whether you hole more with the flag in or out - there is no conclusive proof either way over any consistent time period , there is also no proof it helps the pace of play - 

So when we are allowed to touch the flags etc then we will all go back to how we personally want the flag - out , in , tended etc and no one will be right and no one will be wrong


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Sanctions, closures or fines from who? People should not give up that kind of power.
		
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Power to the people!!! trump fist up

That was a joke......


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Sanctions, closures or fines from who? People should not give up that kind of power.
		
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Local councils have fined golf clubs for ignoring Covid restrictions that have been put in place over the past 12 months. Your human rights etc etc have not been removed because of any pandemic restrictions and maybe your populations poor attitude to the pandemic is the reason why your country has the highest amount of cases and also deaths. Maybe if you treated it more seriously you wouldn’t have lost over 500k to Covid


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Local councils have fined golf clubs for ignoring Covid restrictions that have been put in place over the past 12 months. Your human rights etc etc have not been removed because of any pandemic restrictions and maybe your populations poor attitude to the pandemic is the reason why your country has the highest amount of cases and also deaths. *Maybe if you treated it more seriously you wouldn’t have lost over 500k to Covid*

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You should be ashamed of yourself......for stating the obvious.....


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## rulefan (Apr 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Local councils have fined golf clubs for ignoring Covid restrictions that have been put in place over the past 12 months.
		
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Including the flagstick rule?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 12, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Including the flagstick rule?
		
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Does it matter ? Golf clubs just like any other establishments and sporting venues are to abide by the restrictions laid out by the governing bodies - it doesn’t matter how small those restrictions are but they are expected to be followed - that includes flags , rakes etc - we were visited by police as was another club during the first week.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Including the flagstick rule?
		
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I've said it before....I'll say it again.....Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!


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## Crazyface (Apr 12, 2021)

Anyone playing QF's at the mo? No? Do what you want then. My mate did a great putt today that if no flag would have gone in. It didn't. He was a tad annoyed, it was for par, and he don't get many. I just said, "you can have that you're caddie would have removed the flag and it would have dropped". Chuffed he was. S'easy.


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## Ethan (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Are you suggesting British people are not well educated enough to decide for themselves but need the Government to do it for them? We were the third worse state primarily because we are a state with a huge transitory population. Not because a very small percentage of the population were briefly touching golf flags.
		
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No, I am suggesting that people in the UK generally follow rules of civilised society. Have you any evidence that your state's performance era down to a large migratory population, presumably people, also possibly birds? In the US, it seems that Covid behaves differently in Texas or Florida than New Jersey or California, with wildly different rules for each. That makes no sense. 

Touching golf flags is an interesting example of a one population practice to avoid unnecessary contact with fomites, of which there are others. I agree that avoiding touching golf flags is, by itself, not as big an impact on Covid as vaccination or good ICU provision.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Hmmm.....not sure where I stated "I only wanted to point out that your apparent assumption that leaving the flag reduces the chance of the ball dropping wasn't completely correct".......I've always been a leave the flag in supporter. I'm fine with the flag in, always have been. Just deal with it being in....hit the ball a little easier.....

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Do you have short term memory loss or multiple personalities?

*"Ifffffff, the flag HAD to be left in forever. How much bigger would the hole have to be to allow the same chance of the ball going in the hole? 1/2 inch....1 inch"*


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Do you have short term memory loss or multiple personalities?

*"Ifffffff, the flag HAD to be left in forever. How much bigger would the hole have to be to allow the same chance of the ball going in the hole? 1/2 inch....1 inch"*

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Now.... put into context of the post. Just wondering while walking for a couple of hours...for all those people who claim their lives are destroyed because of the flag....

I guess you could get a little more negative....but not much.

Pssst....I'd still like the flag left in.... with a slightly bigger hole. So yeah.....I'm nuts.


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## Orikoru (Apr 12, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Now.... put into context of the post. Just wondering while walking for a couple of hours...for all those people who claim their lives are destroyed because of the flag....

I guess you could get a little more negative....but not much.

Pssst....I'd still like the flag left in.... with a slightly bigger hole. So yeah.....I'm nuts.
		
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Your posts are often confusing and hard to understand.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Your posts are often confusing and hard to understand.
		
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Don't comment then.......ignore me. I won't be offended. 

I don't blame you.....I confuse myself most of the time. People take things way too seriously.......


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## SteveJay (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			There is something about the UK mindset that seems to love giving up the majority of its rights when the Government says to do so. Just tell them: "We are not shutting our course. It is a private business. People are educated and informed enough to make their own decisions." The lack of trust UK Governments in its population, and UK management has in its workforce when I lived in the UK, with all their red tape and "never question a supervisor or an order" mentality was one of my biggest motivating factors to leave. Sad to see twenty years later, the same mentality still prevails.
		
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But that mentality has seen us return to some normality much sooner than other countries, so there must be something working!


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## Boomy (Apr 12, 2021)

I don’t know about you but I’m not following any COVID advice from an American chap who 1. Lives in the one of the worst affected countries in the world 2. The 3rd worst hit state in America and 3. Who’s fellow countrymen (and women) think it’s normal to shout “mashed potato” whilst spectating golf (as well as “in the hole” on a 500 yard tee shot 🙄)


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## SteveJay (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			I have found no evidence to support anyone claiming that briefly touching golf flags passes COVID-19 from one person to another.
		
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Oh well in that case it must be fine, you just crack on and let us over here in the UK sort things out for ourselves thank you very much.


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## craigstardis1976 (Apr 12, 2021)

Boomy said:



			I don’t about you but I’m not following any COVID advice from an American chap who 1. Lives in the one of the worst affected countries in the world 2. The 3rd worst hit state in America and 3. Who’s fellow countrymen (and women) think it’s normal to shout “mashed potato” whilst spectating golf (as well as “in the hole” on a 500 yard tee shot 🙄)
		
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Just for the record...I am actually from England and if you watch Sky Sports Racing tonight when they cover Turf Paradise, you can hear my English tones commentate on the races! I have never shouted "mashed potato!"


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Just for the record...I am actually from England and if you watch Sky Sports Racing tonight when they cover Turf Paradise, you can hear my English tones commentate on the races! I have never shouted "mashed potato!"
		
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Doesn't mean you are sane...... although, at least it's not the BBC....

I could've sworn you were a Trump republican fanatic........Just for my own interest, are you now a US citizen?


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## GG26 (Apr 12, 2021)

stueyginger said:



			Being an aggressive putter, I've had several bounce outs - don't mind the flag being in from distance but 10ft and under it has to be out for me!!
		
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I think you answered your own point there.  The putts are likely to be too firm to drop and you are using the flag in as an excuse (unless you have wide flag poles in which case ask your club to use thinner ones).

In the past year, I’ve only seen one putt bounce out that may have gone in.  I’ve seen a few that hit the flag at pace and drop in.

 I’ve seen people moan when the ball hasn’t dropped when it wouldn’t have due to the pace of the putt.


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## banjofred (Apr 12, 2021)

GG26 said:



			I think you answered your own point there.  The putts are likely to be too firm to drop and you are using the flag in as an excuse (unless you have wide flag poles in which case ask your club to use thinner ones).

In the past year, I’ve only seen one putt bounce out that may have gone in.  I’ve seen a few that hit the flag at pace and drop in.

I’ve seen people moan when the ball hasn’t dropped when it wouldn’t have due to the pace of the putt.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly......I've lost a few putts because of whacking the flag pretty hard......maybe one or two that I thought might have dropped if the flag wasn't there. Most of the misses are because I hit them too hard.....my fault. It's up to me to adjust to the conditions.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

TBH , leaving the pin in or out doesn't really bother me, but not having rakes available to use in or near bunkers is really annoying.


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 12, 2021)

GG26 said:



			I think you answered your own point there.  The putts are likely to be too firm to drop and you are using the flag in as an excuse (unless you have wide flag poles in which case ask your club to use thinner ones).

In the past year, I’ve only seen one putt bounce out that may have gone in.  I’ve seen a few that hit the flag at pace and drop in.

I’ve seen people moan when the ball hasn’t dropped when it wouldn’t have due to the pace of the putt.
		
Click to expand...

I admire your confidence when telling people who you have almost certainly never seen play golf where they are going wrong.

Since the return I have had three or four putts hit the flag and not drop. Were they too firm? Probably otherwise they would have dropped. Would they have dropped if the flag had not been in? Absolutely. I have spent years ramming short putts into the back of the hole, taking out the break while I do so. I look forward to ramming them into the back of the cup once again in the not too distant future.


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## Boomy (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			TBH , leaving the pin in or out doesn't really bother me, but not having rakes available to use in or near bunkers is really annoying.
		
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I agree with this - personally I think all bunkers should be GUR until its deemed safe to use rakes.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

Boomy said:



			I agree with this - personally I think all bunkers should be GUR until its deemed safe to use rakes.
		
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I think  that might make every comp non qualifying.


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## Boomy (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I think  that might make every comp non qualifying. 

Click to expand...

Surely they could use a local ruling under these exceptional circumstances   🤔 Every bunker I’ve been in has been a right old mess! I love a bunker shot usually... but not out off a bunker which hasn’t been raked (or even attempted to be tidied up) 😫


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

Boomy said:



			Surely they could use a local ruling under these exceptional circumstances   🤔 Every bunker I’ve been in has been a right old mess! I love a bunker shot usually... but not out off a bunker which hasn’t been raked (or even attempted to be tidied up) 😫
		
Click to expand...

The experts will be along shortly


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## Boomy (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			The experts will be along shortly 

Click to expand...

I’ll get the brews on ready 🫖☕️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Primarily because we are one of the most transient states in the nation. And to shut down the economy of the state would have led to severe economic hardship for many people. What is for certain is there absolutely no evidence COVID-19 was passed to others from briefly touching a golf flag.
		
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No...but we did not know that at the outset and so as far as touching any hard surface it was deemed worthwhile getting the mindset established across all contexts that we try to avoid touching anything others may have touched as one element of minimising risk of picking up and hence spreading the virus.  

Most of our fight against the virus - especially prior to vaccines becoming available - was around _everyone_ developing new habits applicable in all contexts to limit spread of the virus.  Indeed even now that we have vaccines that in itself does not change how the virus is transmitted...the habits we have developed remain valid and appropriate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			Are you suggesting British people are not well educated enough to decide for themselves but need the Government to do it for them? We were the third worse state primarily because we are a state with a huge transitory population. Not because a very small percentage of the population were briefly touching golf flags.
		
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Further, the fight against the virus requires population level measures and leaving things up to the individual to make decisions for themselves in isolation of those in their community just does not work as equivalent to a population level response.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 12, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Not before 12th June.

Im with you, I hated the rule change but at least I could work around it. 

Still - if its saved a single life its got to be worth it.

Rakes in bunkers are hopefully in the same boat...
		
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Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem


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## Sports_Fanatic (Apr 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No...but we did not know that at the outset and so as far as touching any hard surface it was deemed worthwhile getting the mindset established across all contexts that we try to avoid touching anything others may have touched as one element of minimising risk of picking up and hence spreading the virus. 

Most of our fight against the virus - especially prior to vaccines becoming available - was around _everyone_ developing new habits applicable in all contexts to limit spread of the virus.  Indeed even now that we have vaccines that in itself does not change how the virus is transmitted...the habits we have developed remain valid and appropriate.
		
Click to expand...

Habits are important, but likewise the science moved on from the start of the pandemic to show transmission from surfaces is negligible as well as the presence of vaccine now so I think it's reasonable to ask which Covid measures need to be kept (e.g. distancing) and those that can be relaxed further. Just the same as any other part of easing lockdown.

Saying that I don't really care either way on flag or rake given how often it actually impacts but the comments (not yours) seem to be a bit harsh about the US.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 12, 2021)

The one thing I find strange is that EG have said that PSI’s can now be used but you can’t touch flags🤷‍♂️


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I find strange is that EG have said that PSI’s can now be used but you can’t touch flags🤷‍♂️
		
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You can have cleaning spray and wipes next to a screen, you can't have them next to flags on a green.

Whether the flags remain an issue anymore is another point.


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## Aztecs27 (Apr 12, 2021)

Having only played one round with them in, I have to admit I quite liked not having to worry about the additional amounts of small faff that comes along with managing the flags being out. Had one of my best days putting too.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 12, 2021)

Do you not prefer them out at close range?  If I’m far enough away to needed it tended it stays in, however pre covid if I was close enough to believe it was sinkable I had it out. That saved the faffing.


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## BridgfordBlue (Apr 12, 2021)

Must admit, I’m looking forward to being able to take the flag out again.

One of the courses I play regularly, the wind can make a big difference to the impact having the flag in can have. Straight into it and it’s going to bounce off virtually every time, it reduces the acceptable variance of pace to be able to hole it at the very least.


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## CliveW (Apr 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I find strange is that EG have said that PSI’s can now be used but you can’t touch flags🤷‍♂️
		
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What is a PSI?


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

CliveW said:



			What is a PSI?
		
Click to expand...

Computer terminal , where scores are entered.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 12, 2021)

Is that because sanitiser and wipes can be placed next to a psi, you cannot do the same with pins?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2021)

To be honest I’d rather forgotten about putting with flag out - so used to putting with it in have I become.


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## davidy233 (Apr 12, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem
		
Click to expand...

Or you could just get on with it - hardly stops you playing golf


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## CliveW (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Computer terminal , where scores are entered.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2021)

I've become so used to having the flag in that it will feel strange to be taking it out again.
I actually prefer the flag in, as I've said before.
I aim to hit the middle of the pin, I feel it tightens my aim focus.
It wouldn't worry me if they say to leave the flags in all the time.

Bunker rakes are more of a priority 
We play the preferred lies rule in bunkers and some of us have personal rakes as described above.
Many don't 
Many try to smooth the bunker with a club or their foot - they might as well not bother.
Many don't bother to do anything.
There have been occasions where there have been so many footprints and gouges in the sand that the oly place you can prefer a lie is on the summit of a sand dune with about 6 inches of sand under your ball....
Get the rakes out!


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## Smiffy (Apr 13, 2021)

I don't know why the don't just allow one designated "flag remover" per group. 
Issue him with a pair of pliers or something to remove it, so that he doesn't physically touch it.
That would make a lot more sense and resolve any arguments etc.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 13, 2021)

Ten days ago I went for my second jab of Pfizer. Some elderly people had a younger relative with them who was not receiving a jab. I saw nobody wiping or cleaning chairs or door handles. My club has set up outdoor seating for food and drinks. Again, I saw nobody wiping or cleaning the chairs. I think it is time to give the surfaces issue some serious thought in order to have a consistent policy. Flagsticks and rakes are only a tiny part of this issue, but we need to be consistent with regard to the perceived "dangerousness" of all surfaces. If we are all touching door handles, chairs, artificial tee surfaces etc with little or no regard, there there is little point continuing with the current policy of flagsticks and rakes, in my view.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 13, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Or you could just get on with it - hardly stops you playing golf
		
Click to expand...

it doesn’t you are quite right, but bunkers are hazards and should be played as it lies as a penalty.  As it stands with pick and place in play with hardly anyone making effort to even smooth prints over they may as well be GUR.


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## Smiffy (Apr 13, 2021)

I would have had 42 points at Bearwood Lakes during the H4H day last year if the flags could have been removed. I ended up with 26. Robbed I was....😡😡😡😡🥴


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## chrisd (Apr 13, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Ten days ago I went for my second jab of Pfizer. Some elderly people had a younger relative with them who was not receiving a jab. I saw nobody wiping or cleaning chairs or door handles. My club has set up outdoor seating for food and drinks. Again, I saw nobody wiping or cleaning the chairs. I think it is time to give the surfaces issue some serious thought in order to have a consistent policy. Flagsticks and rakes are only a tiny part of this issue, but we need to be consistent with regard to the perceived "dangerousness" of all surfaces. If we are all touching door handles, chairs, artificial tee surfaces etc with little or no regard, there there is little point continuing with the current policy of flagsticks and rakes, in my view.
		
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I went for my 2nd jab a couple of weeks back at a mass vaccination centre and every seat was being sanitized as soon as they were vacated, but I do agree that flagsticks and rakes are almost certainly not going to transmit Covid


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## Robobum (Apr 13, 2021)

The extra challenges of putting with the flag in has just made players adapt the skills needed.

If you had a slick downhill 4 footer (with the flag out), it’d be foolish to smash it in. Dropping the ball in the front lip is a skill of controlling pace - practice it rather than blame the flag for keeping it out.

Having said that, the flag will be coming out as soon as permitted 😉


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## D-S (Apr 13, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem
		
Click to expand...

These are mandatory at our Club and visitors must have one per 4 ball. They have worked well with some members wanting us to continue with them and not put the rakes back out. At least it means that we have been playing the ball in bunkers as it lies and it won’t be a shock when things return to normal - when playing at away courses last year we found how advantageous placing in bunkers is.


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## Ridgeman (Apr 13, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Ten days ago I went for my second jab of Pfizer. Some elderly people had a younger relative with them who was not receiving a jab. I saw nobody wiping or cleaning chairs or door handles. My club has set up outdoor seating for food and drinks. Again, I saw nobody wiping or cleaning the chairs. I think it is time to give the surfaces issue some serious thought in order to have a consistent policy. Flagsticks and rakes are only a tiny part of this issue, but we need to be consistent with regard to the perceived "dangerousness" of all surfaces. If we are all touching door handles, chairs, artificial tee surfaces etc with little or no regard, there there is little point continuing with the current policy of flagsticks and rakes, in my view.
		
Click to expand...

All chairs and indeed table surfaces are sanitised after each and every patient.  If there is a relative with them who sits then their chair is done as well.  You may not have seen it but it happens.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem
		
Click to expand...

More plastic in the world, not a good solution.  I have no issues with preferred lies in the bunker.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I find strange is that EG have said that PSI’s can now be used but you can’t touch flags🤷‍♂️
		
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That will be with the expectation that it is cleaned between users.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			TBH , leaving the pin in or out doesn't really bother me, but not having rakes available to use in or near bunkers is really annoying.
		
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Buy your own rake?  A long time ago someone posted a photo of a "clip on" rake to go over a club handle. Bought one. Any bunker I've been in since is neat as neat can be.

Edit: I'm posting too late I see.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I don't know why the don't just allow one designated "flag remover" per group.
Issue him with a pair of pliers or something to remove it, so that he doesn't physically touch it.
That would make a lot more sense and resolve any arguments etc.
		
Click to expand...

It would work - but just imagine the faffing around if some want flag in and some want flag out...and only one of the group can do the inning and outing...🤔


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## IanM (Apr 13, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem
		
Click to expand...

I've got one.  Seems a simple solution


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## BiMGuy (Apr 13, 2021)

Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard. I'd say we should play it as it lies, even without rakes.

Smooth the sand with your feet, job done.


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## Ridgeman (Apr 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard. I'd say we should play it as it lies, even without rakes.

Smooth the sand with your feet, job done.
		
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Your lucky to have sand in your bunkers.   Some of ours have something roughly the same colour as sand but acts more as cement when wet.   The concept of smooth would require trowel rather than rake.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard. I'd say we should play it as it lies, even without rakes.

Smooth the sand with your feet, job done.
		
Click to expand...

Let's see if you still say that after landing in someone's poor attempt at smoothing the sand, take three to get out to lose out of a medal by a stroke. 😂


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## RichA (Apr 13, 2021)

Our bunkers seem to be freshly sanded, but full of deep footprints that the ball always ends up in, making it more of a hazard than is probably intended. There's little evidence of anyone thinking of the next person to come along. A nightmare for a less skilled player like me.
Picking, raking with your personal plastic mini rake and dropping from shoulder height would seem like a sensible solution, but I suspect that would need a rule of some sort.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			Let's see if you still say that after landing in someone's poor attempt at smoothing the sand, take three to get out to lose out of a medal by a stroke. 😂
		
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That happened even when we had rakes. 

There is always the option to take an unplayable.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That happened even when we had rakes. 

There is always the option to take an unplayable.
		
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And thin it back into the bunker, no thanks.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Apr 13, 2021)

The rake attachments are quite neat so fine but I still struggle to see how they're a better solution than the existing bunker rakes staying in and people just putting hand sanitiser in their bag. Less plastic waste, more functionality of sanitising hands not only on raking but also after rounds for example. If people are responsible enough to buy, carry and rake a bunker then they should be responsible enough to quickly sanitise after touching objects. Would allow for ball washers and compressed air to be opened given benches are now I think.

Minor though, we're playing so that's great. Just thinking of refining things for next stage of easing.


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

craigstardis1976 said:



			It is a mystery to me why golfers in the UK are doing this. Just tell people "No, it is ridiculous. You have not thought this through and we are not going to be dictated to or have our freedoms limited by people with no evidence to back up their assertion." *I live in the third worse hit state in the USA* and there was never a golf ban, here. People went through a phase of not touching the flag but people pretty quickly realized there are far more likely ways to catch COVID then touching a metal pole in the middle of the countryside very briefly.
		
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Do you not think there might be a correlation with the rate of infection and this type of attitude?


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

Oddsocks said:



			Amazon do a rake head that clips in your grip, clubs could make these mandatory and sort that problem
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			More plastic in the world, not a good solution.  I have no issues with preferred lies in the bunker.
		
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No problem with personal rakes, not like it's disposable plastic that people are throwing away.


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing I find strange is that EG have said that PSI’s can now be used but you can’t touch flags🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

We don't use the PSI at our club.  Everything is done via app.


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## sunshine (Apr 13, 2021)

Looks to me like the world of golf is crying out for a robot rake that will sort out the bunkers without any human contact.

Here's A Robot That Will Mow Your Lawn, Rake Your Leaves, And Shovel Your Snow (forbes.com)


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## Orikoru (Apr 13, 2021)

I would not be buying any kind of rake that sits in my bag. I can only envision a load of sand dropping it and into the bag and all over my grips. Forget that. Maybe if you could fix a rake head to the end of your umbrella.


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## USER1999 (Apr 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Picking, raking with your personal plastic mini rake and dropping from shoulder height would seem like a sensible solution, but I suspect that would need a rule of some sort.
		
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Drop from shoulder height into some of our bunkers and you would lose the ball in 8 inch deep sand.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 13, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			We don't use the PSI at our club.  Everything is done via app.
		
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What about before Covid and for people that don’t have a smart phone ?


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about before Covid and for people that don’t have a smart phone ?
		
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We used the screen before Covid and probably will afterwards.  They can submit them on their PC when they get home if they have one.  Those who cannot do so can still submit a card but the club requests this to be avoided if possible.  All scores are still marked on a card and then these are put into a box at the end of the round.  How those cards are handled I am afraid I don't know.  With gloves I would hope.


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## KenL (Apr 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No problem with personal rakes, not like it's disposable plastic that people are throwing away.
		
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When proper rakes come back they might throw them away.


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## Smiffy (Apr 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard. I'd say we should play it as it lies, even without rakes.

Smooth the sand with your feet, job done.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, the pro's would love that....


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			When proper rakes come back they might throw them away.
		
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Handle is metal, head is plastic.  Into the various recycle bin it goes.  But I won't bin it.  I'm a hoarder!


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Drop from shoulder height into some of our bunkers and you would lose the ball in 8 inch deep sand.
		
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Drop from shoulder height and you're not dropping it correctly!


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## sunshine (Apr 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			When proper rakes come back they might throw them away.
		
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Best off hanging on to the mini rake when restrictions end. You'll need it when we have to deal with COVID-21.


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## sunshine (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about before Covid and for people that don’t have a smart phone ?
		
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Have we got to the point where entry via app becomes mandatory? Society has moved on, buses and tubes in London have been cashless for years. Even my 81 year old dad has a smartphone, I don't think it's unreasonable to make electronic entry the only option today.


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## Oddsocks (Apr 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard. I'd say we should play it as it lies, even without rakes.

Smooth the sand with your feet, job done.
		
Click to expand...

but people don’t....


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 13, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Yeah, the pro's would love that....
		
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A few years ago at the Memorial Jack introduced rakes with W shaped tines instead of the normal thin vertical ones, they left furrows in the sand. Jack's stated intention was to introduce an element of _hazard _back into bunkers.

The following year he re-introduced the normal rakes following a hissy fit by the Tour pro's. Even the great Jack Nicklaus was cowed into submission by those who need pampering most.


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Drop from shoulder height and you're not dropping it correctly! 

Click to expand...

I know, but I was quoting what the previous poster was suggesting.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What's June 12th got to do with anything?

It's the 21st?

But still. Leave them in forever.
		
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This 1000% add infinity. cement them in!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			This 1000% add infinity. cement them in!
		
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Played with a low index yest (3.4).. he didn't seem to struggle with them in

Didn't get one complaint about them or "can't wait for it to return to normal"

Wasn't slow player either .. refreshing


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			This 1000% add infinity. cement them in!
		
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Always got to ensure you cover the requirements for all players 

Some want them in 
some want them out 
some want them tended 

When May comes along it wouldn’t surprise me to see flags being allowed to be touched and that’s when everyone can have their preferred choice


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

So having it out makes you a bad player?


pauljames87 said:



			Played with a low index yest (3.4).. he didn't seem to struggle with them in

Didn't get one complaint about them or "can't wait for it to return to normal"

Wasn't slow player either .. refreshing
		
Click to expand...

And i bet there's just as many good players prefer them out. Just watch tv, how many tour pro's have them left in?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So having it out makes you a bad player?

And i bet there's just as many good players prefer them out. Just watch tv, how many tour pro's have them left in?
		
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It's the "oh that would have dropped without the flag" well science proves you wrong .. just another excuse for a poor putt.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's the "oh that would have dropped without the flag" well science proves you wrong .. just another excuse for a poor putt.
		
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How does it? Were the 'scientific putts' hit at different speeds, on different surfaces, and different angles to the hole/pin, or were they all fired directly at the middle of it at the same speed on a perfectly smooth surface? You dress it up how you like but I'll take Tiger and his mates words for it over some nerd who's probably no better than me. And if science actually proves it, why does the Scientist himself putt with it out?🤔


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			How does it? Were the 'scientific putts' hit at different speeds, on different surfaces, and different angles to the hole/pin, or were they all fired directly at the middle of it at the same speed on a perfectly smooth surface? You dress it up how you like but I'll take Tiger and his mates words for it over some nerd who's probably no better than me. And if science actually proves it, why does the Scientist himself putt with it out?🤔
		
Click to expand...

He is quoted as saying he will be leaving it in as much as possible 

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/




How can you argue with those results? Such a strong %  of an advantage leaving it in.

If you notice byrson leaves it in from distance and removes from close..backed up by the above data.


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## banjofred (Apr 14, 2021)

Person driving a bus......"I like driving fast.....I'm going around this corner at SPEED"!!....sane person says "but.....but....."

Sane person makes it around the corner....insane person driving the bus dies in a burst of flames. 

Adjust to the conditions.....don't whine about it.....do the best you can with the conditions you have. The flags are in, insisting on putting "firmly" is madness. Adjust to the conditions.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Person driving a bus......"I like driving fast.....I'm going around this corner at SPEED"!!....sane person says "but.....but....."

Sane person makes it around the corner....insane person driving the bus dies in a burst of flames. 

Adjust to the conditions.....don't whine about it.....do the best you can with the conditions you have. The flags are in, insisting on putting "firmly" is madness. Adjust to the conditions.
		
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I always knew the advtange was high leaving it in but I didn't realise how high it actually was! Defo won't be returning to removing the flag where possible 

If my pp removes it I won't make him return it


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

Better to have the flagstick out 99.9% of the time 

What science to believe eh


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I always knew the advtange was high leaving it in but I didn't realise how high it actually was! Defo won't be returning to removing the flag where possible

If my pp removes it I won't make him return it
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the reason for in or out is to do with the pin helping the ball drop or not, but to do with the focus on the hole with the pin in or out, hope this makes sense (BTW I prefer the pin in)


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## banjofred (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

Better to have the flagstick out 99.9% of the time

What science to believe eh
		
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99% of the time...hmmmm.....I will refer to common sense instead of science.......99%, hahahahaha


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2021)

Wow, there is a lot of rubbish talked about in this thread, and a whole bunch of self centred infractionables.

Luckily some of you lot are not in charge of the rules, and so your opinions count for zip.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			He is quoted as saying he will be leaving it in as much as possible 

If you notice byrson leaves it in from distance and removes from close..backed up by the above data.
		
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So which is it? And i would guess 99% of golfers who prefer it out are talking about from short range


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So which is it? And i would guess 99% of golfers who prefer it out are talking about from short range
		
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Personally I think the rule was mucked up when brought in

Out or in should be the option.

Attended should have been removed ..

If your far away that you need it in to see the hole it won't make a difference if it's left in. What's your make % anyways? So leave it in (save time wasting around the hole)

But when within 10 feet or whatever personal choice. If you want it out take it out , If you want in leave it in..


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

Having the pin attended should indeed be confined to history.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			Having the pin attended should indeed be confined to history.
		
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Why ? Doesn’t cause any issues if someone wants it attending ?

Some like the flag in when they are putting from a distance as they put and then want it removed as soon as they make the putt so that the flag doesn’t have any affect on the putt 

Seems a fair reason to me and it doesn’t cause any issues


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			Having the pin attended should indeed be confined to history.
		
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Agreed. Just slows up play. Means your not at your ball getting ready for ready golf 

Also increases people standing around the hole possibly damaging the area 

Like you say just confine to history


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why ? Doesn’t cause any issues if someone wants it attending ?

Some like the flag in when they are putting from a distance as they put and then want it removed as soon as they make the putt so that the flag doesn’t have any affect on the putt 

Seems a fair reason to me and it doesn’t cause any issues
		
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The only reason it was ever introduced was because it was a penalty for your ball to hit the pin.  That is no longer the case.

As to those who "like it", tough. Absolutely no need for this time wasting practice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			The only reason it was ever introduced was because it was a penalty for your ball to hit the pin.  That is no longer the case.

As to those who "like it", tough. Absolutely no need for this time wasting practice.
		
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“Tough” 🤷‍♂️-  why does it waste time ?

We still see Pros having the flag attended

Why can’t we just have whatever people want to do with the flag instead of one or the other - allow the people the option , all inclusive to people’s wishes

It doesn’t cause pace of play issues and it doesn’t cause issues to the greens.

They kept the ability for the flag to be tended for a reason - to allow people to have the choice


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm not bothered either way as I never bother having it attended, but I have no problem with people that do. There is no need for it to slow down play if done efficiently, particularly in a 4 ball


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm not bothered either way as I never bother having it attended, but I have no problem with people that do. There is no need for it to slow down play if done efficiently, particularly in a 4 ball
		
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Lol like every 4 ball does things correctly

That's why rules are even needed


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

I used to play occasionally with a chap who wanted the pin tended from 10 feet, even if everyone else had putted with it out.  That wasted time. Just like it does everytime someone asked for it to be 'tended


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2021)

People have the choice for flag in or flag out. Nobody else has the right to tell them what they should do. End of.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			I used to play occasionally with a chap who wanted the pin tended from 10 feet, even if everyone else had putted with it out.  That wasted time. Just like it does everytime someone asked for it to be 'tended
		
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Rubbish. He goes first while the others line their putts up. The attender lines his putt up after the guy he's attending for has putted out. First player picks up flag and pops it back in when last player has finished. Literally no hold up to anyone. If you can't work that out then you're part of the slow play problem.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			I used to play occasionally with a chap who wanted the pin tended from 10 feet, even if everyone else had putted with it out.  That wasted time. Just like it does *everytime someone *asked for it to be 'tended
		
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But it’s not everytime 

It’s easily worked out - person closest tends - as soon as the person putts the flag comes out and the person tending can then put the flag down and get ready for his putt. 

We are all adults here and capable of sorting things out - it’s just needs a bit of thinking. Just because some want it one way doesn’t means that the only way we should go. 

There is no indication that tending will be stopped - so some players will continue to ask if it makes them comfortable because we are off golfers and respectful of others when we are playing


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			People have the choice for flag in or flag out. Nobody else has the right to tell them what they should do. End of.
		
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Glad to see you didn't include attended in there. The modern world.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Rubbish. He goes first while the others line their putts up. The attender lines his putt up after the guy he's attending for has putted out. First player picks up flag and pops it back in when last player has finished. Literally no hold up to anyone. If you can't work that out then you're part of the slow play problem.
		
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Lol if only. You know this only works in about 30% of golfers

For crying out loud we still have people who think single players have no standing on the course and those who refuse to play ready golf


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Glad to see you didn't include attended in there. The modern world.
		
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They have that option and should use it if they feel it will assist them 😊

The ball hitting the flag is a physical thing but there is also the mental side of things. I will use anything that I feel gives me an advantage.


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## Smiffy (Apr 14, 2021)

All I know is that when I'm faced with a ten footer, I'd much rather have a gaping, uninterrupted hole waiting for my ball to drop. That big, fat 6" wide stick stuck in the middle doesn't half put me off.


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## banjofred (Apr 14, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			All I know is that when I'm faced with a ten footer, I'd much rather have a gaping, uninterrupted hole waiting for my ball to drop. That big, fat 6" wide stick stuck in the middle doesn't half put me off.
		
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Golf is a mental game.....if you don't like something it can kill you.....


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Rubbish. He goes first while the others line their putts up. The attender lines his putt up after the guy he's attending for has putted out. First player picks up flag and pops it back in when last player has finished. Literally no hold up to anyone. If you can't work that out then you're part of the slow play problem.
		
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Is the word "pish" allowed on here? This was pre ready golf and I might have been referring to match play where it is still furthest from the hole to play first.

I am NOT part of the problem. 😂


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			He is quoted as saying he will be leaving it in as much as possible

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

View attachment 36176


How can you argue with those results? Such a strong %  of an advantage leaving it in.

If you notice byrson leaves it in from distance and removes from close..backed up by the above data.
		
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Interesting that they have chosen the speed of the putt to finish 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole.  Basically what this says is if your ball is still travelling like an express train when it reaches the hole then a stick will stand more chance of helping it than fresh air; who knew?

But given that, depending on your choice of expert, the optimum speed to finish past the hole is 9 to 17 inches, why choose these speeds unless you are pushing an agenda?

And if you are routinely hitting putts 9 feet rather than 9 inches past you need to learn to putt rather than leaving the pin in would be my thoughts.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

KenL said:



			Is the word "pish" allowed on here? This was pre ready golf and I might have been referring to match play where it is still furthest from the hole to play first.

I am NOT part of the problem. 😂
		
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You can say pish as much as you like because that is what you are talking. 2 ball 3 ball 4 ball match/stroke whatever format you are playing its perfectly workable with a bit of common sense


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 14, 2021)

I think Delc was right in hindsight. This can only be solved by making the hole bigger. Then everyone will be happy.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I think Delc was right in hindsight. This can only be solved by making the hole bigger. Then everyone will be happy.
		
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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 14, 2021)

I Agree that the player should have the option to putt with the flag in or flag out, but putting the burden on someone else who is nothing to do with you to attend the flag is outdated, I had to do this for a playing partner before with freezing cold rain hammering down, if you have a caddy you are paying then fair enough, but don't asked me, I want to get on with my game and MY routine


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I Agree that the player should have the option to putt with the flag in or flag out, but putting the burden on someone else who is nothing to do with you to attend the flag is outdated, I had to do this for a playing partner before with freezing cold rain hammering down, if you have a caddy you are paying then fair enough, but don't asked me, I want to get on with my game and MY routine
		
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Watch out, you might be accused of talking pish. 😂🤣😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I Agree that the player should have the option to putt with the flag in or flag out, but putting the burden on someone else who is nothing to do with you to attend the flag is outdated, I had to do this for a playing partner before with freezing cold rain hammering down, if you have a caddy you are paying then fair enough, but don't asked me,* I want to get on with my game and MY routine*

Click to expand...

Do we no longer care about others on the golf course ? What about other people’s routine - I guess you are ok to ignore others as long as yours is ok - or is it not about compromise and ensure all your playing partners are comfortable on the course. 

Or is it just about the singular attitude and blanking out everyone else

It’s supposed to be a social gentlemans game with respect and integrity towards fellow golfers


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I Agree that the player should have the option to putt with the flag in or flag out, but putting the burden on someone else who is nothing to do with you to attend the flag is outdated, I had to do this for a playing partner before with freezing cold rain hammering down, if you have a caddy you are paying then fair enough, but don't asked me, I want to get on with my game and MY routine
		
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Do you help your playing partners to look for their balls in the rough?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do we no longer care about others on the golf course ? What about other people’s routine - I guess you are ok to ignore others as long as yours is ok - or is it not about compromise and ensure all your playing partners are comfortable on the course.

Or is it just about the singular attitude and blanking out everyone else

It’s supposed to be a social gentlemans game with respect and integrity towards fellow golfers
		
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Well said sir!


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Do we no longer care about others on the golf course *? What about other people’s routine - I guess you are ok to ignore others as long as yours is ok - or is it not about compromise and ensure all your playing partners are comfortable on the course.

Or is it just about the singular attitude and blanking out everyone else

It’s supposed to be a social gentlemans game with respect and integrity towards fellow golfers
		
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Two can play at that game, I do care about others , that's why I would never ask a player to walk maybe 30 yards to attend a pin* for me. *In all seriousness Phil I was just using an example above, trying to prove flag attending is a selfish thing to ask for when there's no need. I will do whatever my playing partners needed


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Played with a low index yest (3.4).. he didn't seem to struggle with them in

Didn't get one complaint about them or "can't wait for it to return to normal"

*Wasn't* *slow* *player* *either* .. refreshing
		
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Why would he be slow, he isn’t taking many shots
It’s the high handicappers taking 90 to 100 shots per round, losing balls etc that takes a lot of time


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## Crow (Apr 14, 2021)

You lot do realise that we're back playing golf and this sort of endless argument can be forgotten about now?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Two can play at that game, I do care about others , that's why I would never ask a player to walk maybe 30 yards to attend a pin* for me. *In all seriousness Phil I was just using an example above, trying to prove flag attending is a selfish thing to ask for when there's no need. I will do whatever my playing partners needed
		
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30 yards ? Why 30 yards and let’s be honest how many times will it really happen to that extreme ? I have been asked once or twice maybe and done it with no issues , it doesn’t harm me or indeed anyone , it’s not selfish just like having the flag in or out isn’t selfish or wanting someone not to stand behind you or someone who likes to tee off first or last etc etc - we all have our quirks on the golf course and each one of us works around each other’s quirks.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Do you help your playing partners to look for their balls in the rough?
		
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I think your mixing me up with 99% of other golfers, I always help look for opponents balls for as long as they want me to, replace 2 to 3 other players divots per hole, the same amount of pitch marks, let faster players through etc. etc.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Why would he be slow, he isn’t taking many shots
It’s the high handicappers taking 90 to 100 shots per round, losing balls etc that takes a lot of time
		
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Put your bait away fish boy.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I think your mixing me up with 99% of other golfers, I always help look for opponents balls for as long as they want me to, replace 2 to 3 other players divots per hole, the same amount of pitch marks, let faster players through etc. etc.
		
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No not at all, you said you wouldn't tend a flag I just wondered what other things you wouldn't do to help out your playing partners.


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## KenL (Apr 14, 2021)

Gentleman's game...🦕🦖😂


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No not at all, you said you wouldn't tend a flag I just wondered what other things you wouldn't do to help out your playing partners.
		
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Just helping them get into the 21st century. Fair play


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Just helping them get into the 21st century. Fair play
		
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Thank god I started playing in the 20th century, when we had standards, and kept to them


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Thank god I started playing in the 20th century, when we had standards, and kept to them
		
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Good for you 

Don't be offended when somebody reports you for slow play


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 14, 2021)

We've had 'gentleman's game' and 'standards '. Does anyone want to throw any other classic phrases in?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We've had 'gentleman's game' and 'standards '. Does anyone want to throw any other classic phrases in?
		
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Why can't people just check the website and obey the requests of the out dated boys club


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No not at all, you said you wouldn't tend a flag I just wondered what other things you wouldn't do to help out your playing partners.
		
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Sorry guys, I think my original post came out all wrong and not in the context it was meant, I'm a very considerate playing partner which I will let you judge if we ever get the pleasure to partner, just think flag attending is unnecessary with the new rules changes of last year and can't think of any example why this would be needed. once again I apologise if this is against the grain.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Sorry guys, I think my original post came out all wrong and not in the context it was meant, I'm a very considerate playing partner which I will let you judge if we ever get the pleasure to partner, just think flag attending is unnecessary with the new rules changes of last year and can't think of any example why this would be needed. once again I apologise if this is against the grain.
		
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Don't apologise, you are correct some people just can't cope with change its hard

Also you can't help your post being picked on by the resident devils advocate 

If only his team were winning he might be less bored


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Good for you

Don't be offended when somebody reports you for slow play
		
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Never happened, and never will.
I play quickly and don’t take many shots.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Never happened, and never will.
I play quickly and don’t take many shots.
		
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Easy when you only play 9 holes i guess 👍


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Sorry guys, I think my original post came out all wrong and not in the context it was meant, I'm a very considerate playing partner which I will let you judge if we ever get the pleasure to partner, just think flag attending is unnecessary with the new rules changes of last year and can't think of any example why this would be needed. once again I apologise if this is against the grain.
		
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I agree that’s it’s not really necessary, I prefer to leave it in from range, and take it out close up.
But if a PP wants it tending I’ll gladly do it.


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Easy when you only play 9 holes i guess 👍
		
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You’ll have to explain that one 🤷🏻‍♂️
I play on a long, open qualifying course, with the, normal, 18 holes.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			You’ll have to explain that one 🤷🏻‍♂️
I play on a long, open qualifying course, with the, normal, 18 holes.
		
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Ofc you do big man.


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ofc you do big man.
		
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Oh you noticed, thanks


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Thank god I started playing in the 20th century, when we had standards, and kept to them
		
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It always amazes me that people take up the game and then instead of adjusting themselves to fit in with the game spend more energy trying to change it to just suit themselves 

It’s as if respect , integrity , standards are dirty words - I’m happy that Golf has rules and codes of conduct along with dress codes - gives people some guidelines to follow and maybe other sports should take notice.


Steve Wilkes said:



			Sorry guys, I think my original post came out all wrong and not in the context it was meant, I'm a very considerate playing partner which I will let you judge if we ever get the pleasure to partner, just think flag attending is unnecessary with the new rules changes of last year and can't think of any example why this would be needed. once again I apologise if this is against the grain.
		
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Nothing to apologise for, everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

The instances of people asking for the flag to be tended with have reduced and be rare but there is always someone that likes it that way and golf is good in that way that we always try and accommodate everyone


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Isn't it lovely that those at the world handicap system took up the game and just left it as it was

And those who took up the game when women didn't really have a place on the course left it as the norm and didn't grow the women's game

And Augusta was never challenged for its caddies views everyone just respected it 

Lovely


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it lovely that those at the world handicap system took up the game and just left it as it was

And those who took up the game when women didn't really have a place on the course left it as the norm and didn't grow the women's game

And Augusta was never challenged for its caddies views everyone just respected it

Lovely
		
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Sorry, you have lost me completely.

What point are you trying to make?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, you have lost me completely.

What point are you trying to make?
		
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Change is an important part of golf

History has it place but certain things are best left there forever.


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Change is an important part of golf

History has it place but certain things are best left there forever.
		
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Ah, yes. I somehow mistakenly thought you were tying racism, sexism, elitism in to the debate of leaving the pin in, or taking it out. It's a tenuous link, that I don't think plays well.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Change is an important part of golf

History has it place but certain things are best left there forever.
		
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The rules regarding the flag have changed to give people more options not less. I don't understand your point.


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It always amazes me that people take up the game and then instead of adjusting themselves to fit in with the game spend more energy trying to change it to just suit themselves

It’s as if respect , integrity , standards are dirty words - I’m happy that Golf has rules and codes of conduct along with dress codes - gives people some guidelines to follow and maybe other sports should take notice
		
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I’m intrigued to know if those that want to change everything about the game actually enjoy playing it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

JamesR said:



			I’m intrigued to know if those that want to change everything about the game actually enjoy playing it?
		
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It’s the same as complaints about dress codes at certain courses and then declaring you wouldn’t play there because it’s too expensive as well 

Thankfully with golf there are courses and clubs to suit all desires.


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## JamesR (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thankfully with golf there are courses and clubs to suit all desires.
		
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You’d think so, but reading this forum I sometimes wonder


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			30 yards ? Why 30 yards and let’s be honest how many times will it really happen to that extreme ? I have been asked once or twice maybe and done it with no issues , it doesn’t harm me or indeed anyone , it’s not selfish just like having the flag in or out isn’t selfish or wanting someone not to stand behind you or someone who likes to tee off first or last etc etc - we all have our quirks on the golf course and each one of us works around each other’s quirks.
		
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Besides...with the device we have on the flag to lift the ball out of the hole I will always ask the player about to putt if he wants the lever ‘spun behind’ - as if I was tending the flag. This takes me time but is more time efficient than the player himself having to do it.

Tending the flag is just one of the things we do for other players, this one being something a player‘s caddy would do, but as mostly today we don’t play with a caddy it’s our responsibility - as is offering to ‘spin the lever’.

And if and when we can return to flag in/attended/out then of course we offer to attend or accept without question or thought, any request received.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 15, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382607301325029379
Guess he wanted the flag out 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382607301325029379
Guess he wanted the flag out 😂
		
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Worse...........tended


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382607301325029379
Guess he wanted the flag out 😂
		
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Reminds me of the Glasgow/Edinburgh quip...from the mouth of an Edinburger...

Whats the difference between Edinburgh and Glasgow?  In Edinburgh if you see a bloke walking down the street with a golf club, there’s a good chance he’s going to play golf. Oh hahahaha...🤪😻


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## Robster59 (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Good for you

Don't be offended when somebody reports you for slow play
		
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I've played for years with the flag being tended and never been reported for slow play, neither am I a slow player.  Tending the flag and slow play are not the same thing.


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## JamesR (Apr 15, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've played for years with the flag being tended and never been reported for slow play, neither am I a slow player.  Tending the flag and slow play are not the same thing.
		
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Indeed, if done properly tending the flag barely adds any extra time to the hole.

- You both go to your ball and do your pitchmark repairing, marking, cleaning and lining up
- At that point the player nearest asks those furthest away if any want the pin tending. If so, he goes to hole and tends the pin
- player furthest away putts, and whilst the ball is moving the tender whips out pin and holds it for the next man to putt, or puts it down away from play
- he then goes to his ball and prepares to putt whilst the next furthest away putts, or remains at the hole and tends

The most important part is everyone reading their putt at the same time, unlike the way Pros appear to do it today.

Maybe they should bring back etiquette lessons and playing lessons, with committee members or the pro, for newbies?


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## D-S (Apr 15, 2021)

Pre COVID I said that, even though I am a flag out golfer from 10 foot and in, the one thing that changed for me was that I would never have the flag attended ever again. I never liked having someone standing by my target.
However if I play a course with those extra thick pins due to the ball lifters fitted round them, I would now be tempted to have it attended. We played one course with them and all four of us had at least one ‘holed’ putt bounce out - two of them were absolute deadweight and hit the centre of pin popping straight back. Ultra thick pins is the one thing I’m really looking forward to never seeing again.


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## JamesR (Apr 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Pre COVID I said that, even though I am a flag out golfer from 10 foot and in, the one thing that changed for me was that I would never have the flag attended ever again. I never liked having someone *standing* *by* *my* *target*.
However if I play a course with those extra thick pins due to the ball lifters fitted round them, I would now be tempted to have it attended. We played one course with them and all four of us had at least one ‘holed’ putt bounce out - two of them were absolute deadweight and hit the centre of pin popping straight back. Ultra thick pins is the one thing I’m really looking forward to never seeing again.
		
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It was useful in team golf as your pp could stand on the side you’re aiming and give you a line


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Pre COVID I said that, even though I am a flag out golfer from 10 foot and in, the one thing that changed for me was that I would never have the flag attended ever again. I never liked having someone standing by my target.
However if I play a course with those extra thick pins due to the ball lifters fitted round them, I would now be tempted to have it attended. We played one course with them and all four of us had at least one ‘holed’ putt bounce out - two of them were absolute deadweight and hit the centre of pin popping straight back. Ultra thick pins is the one thing I’m really looking forward to never seeing again.
		
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Ball retrievers don’t have to be of the ‘sleeve’ type.  Ours have a simple thin steel rod connected a lifting ‘arm’ to the ‘dish’. With the lifting arm spun round opposite of direction the putt is coming from, the rod is completely behind the flagstick, as well as (obviously) out of sight. The ball retrieval mechanism has no impact whatsoever on a putt.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 15, 2021)

Simple thing is it’s still a choice the player has.
Taking his choice away is not up to anyone until it is outlawed in the rules.
I like the pin out for all putts, but if I can’t see the hole properly I will have it attended.
I would expect anyone I play with to do this for me if asked.


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## D-S (Apr 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ball retrievers don’t have to be of the ‘sleeve’ type.  Ours have a simple thin steel rod connected a lifting ‘arm’ to the ‘dish’. With the lifting arm spun round opposite of direction the putt is coming from, the rod is completely behind the flagstick, as well as (obviously) out of sight. The ball retrieval mechanism has no impact whatsoever on a putt.
		
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As I said, if ball retriever pins are the thick type I'll be glad to see the back of them - if they only have a single arm that you need to reposition, that is of course ok - but some have two arms which also makes the hole a lot smaller as well. Unfortunately a lot of clubs have the wider pin versions and that is a pain in the neck. If the thin pin types (admittedly pricy) were mandated then a lot of these debates would go away but not all.


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## KenL (Apr 15, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It was useful in team golf as your pp could stand on the side you’re aiming and give you a line
		
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Not sure that's allowed.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 15, 2021)

KenL said:



			Not sure that's allowed.
		
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You can’t ask him to position his feet to help you line up.
But you can aim at his feet as long as it’s not agreed he will stand in certain places on the high side etc.
That’s how I understand it!


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## KenL (Apr 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can’t ask him to position his feet to help you line up.
But you can aim at his feet as long as it’s not agreed he will stand in certain places on the high side etc.
That’s how I understand it!
		
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Yes, that sounds fine.  I only ever asked for a pin to be held out of necessity.

Banished to history for me. 😜😂


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## sunshine (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			They have that option and should use it if they feel it will assist them 😊

The ball hitting the flag is a physical thing but there is also the mental side of things. I will use anything that I feel gives me an advantage.
		
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The only reason I can think of for having the flag attended is to wind up my opponent. I will use anything that I feel gives me an advantage


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2021)

sunshine said:



			The only reason I can think of for having the flag attended is to wind up my opponent. I will use anything that I feel gives me an advantage 

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Can’t imagine why any opponent would get wound up as it has been standard practice for a century and longer and nobody got wound up before.

When might I want the flag attended?   Say I prefer flag out for all putts, but find on a long one (perhaps I’m putting up a significant change of level) I am struggling or unable to get a good line on the hole...so I ask to have the flag attended.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can’t imagine why any opponent would get wound up as it has been standard practice for a century and longer and nobody got wound up before.

When might I want the flag attended?   Say I prefer flag out for all putts, but find on a long one (perhaps I’m putting up a significant change of level) I am struggling or unable to get a good line on the hole...so I ask to have the flag attended.
		
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Surely that is unnecessary now that flags can be left in. Back in the day tending was necessary because flags had to be out when a ball was on the green. Now that isn't the case so tending becomes obsolete. Tending will die out and people will look back in future and scratch their heads about it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely that is unnecessary now that flags can be left in. Back in the day tending was necessary because flags had to be out when a ball was on the green. Now that isn't the case so tending becomes obsolete. Tending will die out and people will look back in future and scratch their heads about it.
		
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Exactly this. If you are that far that you need the flag in to see the hole it's going to make no difference if the flag is in or out. What's the make % of that putt anyways?

Before it was to keep within the rules of no flag stick in when putt drops 

But now it's not a rule .. it doesn't matter one bit 

It will die out eventually


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely that is unnecessary now that flags can be left in. Back in the day tending was necessary because flags had to be out when a ball was on the green. Now that isn't the case so tending becomes obsolete. Tending will die out and people will look back in future and scratch their heads about it.
		
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I think with the virus transmission things will change and evolve in all aspects of life including golf .
But it’s still a choice under the rules .
So if a player asks ,his choice should be respected.
Can’t think of any other things a fellow golfer would deny a pp just because he thinks it’s not nessesary.!!


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

99.9% of my long ones won't be troubling the hole or the flag anyway.
Flag in / flag out - at least it gives everyone a ready made excuse for the misses. 
I wouldn't ask a playing partner to tend the flag for me any more than I would ask them to pick up my tees or carry my bag.
It feels to me like something from another era that's more superstition than actually providing a benefit.
Have there ever been any robot tests to establish the reality of it?


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Simple thing is it’s still a choice the player has.
Taking his choice away is not up to anyone until it is outlawed in the rules.
I like the pin out for all putts, but if I can’t see the hole properly I will have it attended.
I would expect anyone I play with to do this for me if asked.
		
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You'd expect someone to do something that is no longer necessary?, I'd have to say if you asked me I'd say no.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think with the virus transmission things will change and evolve in all aspects of life including golf .
But it’s still a choice under the rules .
So if a player asks ,his choice should be respected.
Can’t think of any other things a fellow golfer would deny a pp just because he thinks it’s not nessesary.!!
		
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I wouldn't say no if asked to do it. I would undoubtedly do a little inward eye roll though 🙄😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surely that is unnecessary now that flags can be left in. Back in the day tending was necessary because flags had to be out when a ball was on the green. Now that isn't the case so tending becomes obsolete. Tending will die out and people will look back in future and scratch their heads about it.
		
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A simple reason why people might want the flag tended 

Two tear green - they don’t want to keep the flag in when putting because they have a believe that the ball has a chance on bouncing out - so they want it tended because they can’t see the hole , as soon as they make the putting stroke the flag comes out 

Already seen it happen a few times 

Not everyone is the same - people have their own beliefs when they are putting 

It doesn’t cause damage around the hole and it doesn’t slow up play 

There is no harm in having the flag tended and for some it will still be neccesary even with the rule changes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You'd expect someone to do something that is no longer necessary?, I'd have to say if you asked me I'd say no.
		
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If I decide it is necessary then it is necessary.  And if you said no to me in a match I might well concede and walk off.   The word is ‘respect’ and in golf we respect the wishes of our opponent or playing companion.  We don‘t challenge them.

The same applies if I ask you to move from where you are standing when I am about to play.  If I ask you to move then you respect my request and move. End of.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

Unless the person tending has putted out then clearly it slows the game down. Instead of looking at your own putt, being ready to go as soon as your partner has taken their putt, you are stood holding a flag by the hole. That is as clear as can be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

I take it all those who are against the flag being attended only play Golf when it’s flat calm?

If I decide to leave a flag in but find it’s leaning towards me due to either wind or not sitting properly in the hole than I would ask someone in the group to attend it for me to reduce the risk of it hitting the flag and not going in.

I play Golf to relax, if someone refused to attend the flag for me on the rare occassion I requested, it would be the last time I join them on the course.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unless the person tending has putted out then clearly it slows the game down. Instead of looking at your own putt, being ready to go as soon as your partner has taken their putt, you are stood holding a flag by the hole. That is as clear as can be.
		
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Slowing play down is a red herring, you are stood there doing nothing while I putt, make yourself busy and attend the flag if requested.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 16, 2021)

We should keep it in for the sake of public health. Covid will still be around, flu will return and there’s that nasty norovirus always lurking!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unless the person tending has putted out then clearly it slows the game down. Instead of looking at your own putt, being ready to go as soon as your partner has taken their putt, you are stood holding a flag by the hole. That is as clear as can be.
		
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It doesn’t slow the game down in any way at all providing people use common sense 

You aren’t stood there for 15 mins holding a flag 

There is always plenty of time for people to tend - it’s very simple 

When you all get to the green - you Mark , repair pitchmarks, check your line and then either you stand around waiting for someone to putt or in some cases you tend the flag . Then as soon as the stroke is made the flag comes out is putt down and you then go to your ball to make your putt.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Slowing play down is a red herring, you are stood there doing nothing while I putt, make yourself busy and attend the flag if requested.
		
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LT could be putting his putter back in his bag marking his score card and removing his head cover on his driver and preparing to move to the next tee.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			LT could be putting his putter back in his bag marking his score card and removing his head over on his driver and preparing to move to the next tee.
		
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Which could be noisy or in my eye line, all be distracting for me, therefore slowing me down and making me wait until he stops moving about etc.

Normally when a pp is putting I will quietly stand still.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

Of course it wastes time.

A 2 ball both with a 30/40 yard putt (most likely short)  both wanting it tended would need to walk to and from their ball to tend it.

Why bother anyway?  Average amateurs hole a long putt about once in a blue moon.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Of course it wastes time.

A 2 ball both with a 30/40 yard putt (most likely short)  both wanting it tended would need to walk to and from their ball to tend it.

Why bother anyway?  Average amateurs hole a long putt about once in a blue moon.
		
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You defeating your own argument, if it’s a 2 ball and they both want the flag attended, neither will be a problem and will help each other.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Which could be noisy or in my eye line, all be distracting for me, therefore slowing me down and making me wait until he stops moving about etc.

Normally when a pp is putting I will quietly stand still.
		
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But as we have played together on many occasions you know that I behave as a pp should .


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## Jimaroid (Apr 16, 2021)

Attending a flag is a simple courtesy. Like holding open a door, you just do it no matter the few seconds it costs you. It's remarkable this is even being questioned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			But as we have played together on many occasions you know that I behave as a pp should .
		
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Don’t think I’ve ever asked you to tend the flag either😂😂


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You defeating your own argument, if it’s a 2 ball and they both want the flag attended, neither will be a problem and will help each other.
		
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No, I was responding to someone who suggested tending the pin didn't take (waste) any time.


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Attending a flag is a simple courtesy. Like holding open a door, you just do it no matter the few seconds it costs you. It's remarkable this is even being questioned.
		
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For me, courtesy is offered rather than being expected. 
I played recreational golf only with friends for 20 years before quitting for 10 and have only recently restarted and joined a club. I now play handicap rounds and in competitions, where it feels a bit more like it matters. If I'm tending the flag for a playing partner while the following group are in sight behind us, I'm not lining up my own putt and will probably end up rushing. It may well adversely affect my score. Courtesy works both ways and flag tending seems to go against the principles of ready golf, which I thought we were all being encouraged to engage in.


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## TigerBear (Apr 16, 2021)

Keep the rule for now. As a previous poster said, if it saves at least a single life or has prevented one person from becoming infected then it has been a success *thumbs up*


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

I genuinely think that after a year and a half of not touching the flags, and having got used to that, people will largely forget about 'attending' completely and it will become a non-issue for 99% of golfers. An old boy might ask you to attend the flag one day in a comp, and you'll chuckle to yourself about how quirky and old-fashioned he is.


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## IanM (Apr 16, 2021)

TigerBear said:



			Keep the rule for now. As a previous poster said, if it saves at least a single life or has prevented one person from inflected then it has been a success *thumbs up*
		
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and it is another "there is no contact" element to shout at politicians if required!  If only we could get some to understand that golf happens "outdoors!" 

Question, is anyone actually not playing golf cos you have to leave the flag in??


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## USER1999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			No, I was responding to someone who suggested tending the pin didn't take (waste) any time.
		
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It doesn't waste time.

In your two ball scenario, both with long putts, unless they are both terrible putters, they will want to look at the putt from a couple of different angles, and probably from behind the hole as well. In which case, one of them stays there while the other putts, and then while the first one walks up to mark his ball, the other one walks back to his.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It doesn't waste time.

In your two ball scenario, both with long putts, unless they are both terrible putters, they will want to look at the putt from a couple of different angles, and probably from behind the hole as well. In which case, one of them stays there while the other putts, and then while the first one walks up to mark his ball, the other one walks back to his.
		
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Nice try!
Most people I play with only look at a putt from one side, especially on a long putt that might "need" tended.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You'd expect someone to do something that is no longer necessary?, I'd have to say if you asked me I'd say no.
		
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It isnt your decision to decide if it's necessary or not.


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## TigerBear (Apr 16, 2021)

IanM said:



			and it is another "there is no contact" element to shout at politicians if required!  If only we could get some to understand that golf happens "outdoors!" 

Question, is anyone actually not playing golf cos you have to leave the flag in??
		
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Surely not some people refusing to play our wonderful game because of the pin staying in? Is it that much of an annoyance when you get a bounce out??!! Lol


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It doesn't waste time.

In your two ball scenario, both with long putts, unless they are both terrible putters, they will want to look at the putt from a couple of different angles, and probably from behind the hole as well. In which case, one of them stays there while the other putts, and then while the first one walks up to mark his ball, the other one walks back to his.
		
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Who the hell does that!? Most people I've played with for a long putt just have a look from behind the ball and give it a whack! If I saw someone walking around looking at every angle for a 30 foot putt then I'd be moaning they really are wasting time.


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## USER1999 (Apr 16, 2021)

IanM said:



			Question, is anyone actually not playing golf cos you have to leave the flag in??
		
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Very strange question, and very hard to answer without playing the poster and not the post.

I derive less enjoyment out of playing, as I am unable to putt in the style that I like, and have used to great effect for 40 years.

Stop playing? No, that would be daft, but they could introduce a raft of rule changes that would be irritating but would not stop most from playing, from limiting handicaps, clubs, lofts, head sizes, shaft flex, trolley bans, time limits on rounds (sub 3 hours would be my preference), etc. Why just pick flag in / out?


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## USER1999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Who the hell does that!? Most people I've played with for a long putt just have a look from behind the ball and give it a whack! If I saw someone walking around looking at every angle for a 30 foot putt then I'd be moaning they really are wasting time. 

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Any one who realistically expects to leave a tap in for their next putt, so in reality, any one who is good at putting.
It takes less time, because you only ever have to line up one putt, and not 4.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Slowing play down is a red herring, you are stood there doing nothing while I putt, make yourself busy and attend the flag if requested.
		
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Absolutely correct, those people that say it slows things down are just looking for excuses to justify their preferences. If a flag needs to be tended/removed/put back in it will add no more than a couple of minutes to a round whereas all the faffing around that people do wastes much more time.
I watched a fourball in front of me yesterday where 3 of them drove into the clag. All 4 went to look for the 1st ball for 3 minutes then they all went to look for the 2nd ball for 3 minutes then the last ball for 3 minutes. If each went to look for their own ball that would have saved 6 minutes alone. They didn't find any of them and they all dropped balls back on the fairway and continued.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Any one who realistically expects to leave a tap in for their next putt, so in reality, any one who is good at putting.
It takes less time, because you only ever have to line up one putt, and not 4.
		
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I know I should spend more time looking, but I just cannot bring myself to. I don't want others to think I'm one of those unmentionables who thinks he's playing the Masters and needs to get on with it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			For me, courtesy is offered rather than being expected.
I played recreational golf only with friends for 20 years before quitting for 10 and have only recently restarted and joined a club. I now play handicap rounds and in competitions, where it feels a bit more like it matters. If I'm tending the flag for a playing partner while the following group are in sight behind us, I'm not lining up my own putt and will probably end up rushing. It may well adversely affect my score. Courtesy works both ways and flag tending seems to go against the principles of *ready golf, which I thought we were all being encouraged to engage in*.
		
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Yes we are being encouraged to play ready golf but that is a direct result of all the other faffing about that has crept into the game over the last few years. Even playing ready golf it still takes longer to get round the course than it did years ago.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I genuinely think that after a year and a half of not touching the flags, and having got used to that, people will largely forget about 'attending' completely and it will become a non-issue for 99% of golfers. An old boy might ask you to attend the flag one day in a comp, and you'll chuckle to yourself about how quirky and old-fashioned he is.
		
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No one has suggested people will want flags attended all the time, but on the odd, rare occassion someone asks for it to be attended then why not, they’ll obviously have a reason and why would you chuckle to yourself or think anything apart from, no problem if that’s what they’d like.

Really don’t understand why people have to cite extremes to prove a point, to me it simply shows some are overthinking the issue and don’t want to compromise.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yes we are being encouraged to play ready golf but that is a direct result of all the other faffing about that has crept into the game over the last few years. Even playing ready golf it still takes longer to get round the course than it did years ago.
		
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Not where I play it doesn't. 3.5 hours for a 4 ball on a 6600 yard challenging course.  

Might have been longer when people wanted the flag tended.😂
Seriously, since the leaving the pin in has been allowed, I have been asked to tend it a couple of times, pre-covid of course.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

I’ve never once in all the literature about ready Golf seen not attending flags as a way to improve speed of play.

Are you people who are advocating not attending the flag also going to be against raking bunkers when that is brought back in? That’s really going to slow the game down isn’t it?


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ve never once in all the literature about ready Golf seen not attending flags as a way to improve speed of play.

Are you people who are advocating not attending the flag also going to be against raking bunkers when that is brought back in? That’s really going to slow the game down isn’t it?

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Really?

Being allowed to leave the flag in was one of the measures brought in to SPEED UP PLAY!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



*For me, courtesy is offered rather than being expected.*
I played recreational golf only with friends for 20 years before quitting for 10 and have only recently restarted and joined a club. I now play handicap rounds and in competitions, where it feels a bit more like it matters. If I'm tending the flag for a playing partner while the following group are in sight behind us, I'm not lining up my own putt and will probably end up rushing. It may well adversely affect my score. Courtesy works both ways and flag tending seems to go against the principles of ready golf, which I thought we were all being encouraged to engage in.
		
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Re the bit in bold:
You play in a Comp/Open/Society day whatever and you are drawn with strangers, introduce yourself on the first tee and off you go, early on in the round a pp asks you to attend the flag and as you don’t know them are you going to refuse?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Really?

Being allowed to leave the flag in was one of the measures brought in to SPEED UP PLAY!
		
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And they had to change the rules for that to happen, plus did they state flags were not to be attended?


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			It isnt your decision to decide if it's necessary or not.
		
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Of course it is. 
Have the flag out or in is great, whatever suits,  but expecting someone to stand there holding the flag while your 40 foot putt whizzes by is just ridiculous and a waste of thier time.


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## IanM (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Very strange question, and very hard to answer without playing the poster and not the post.

I derive less enjoyment out of playing, as I am unable to putt in the style that I like, and have used to great effect for 40 years.

Stop playing? No, that would be daft, but they could introduce a raft of rule changes that would be irritating but would not stop most from playing, from limiting handicaps, clubs, lofts, head sizes, shaft flex, trolley bans, time limits on rounds (sub 3 hours would be my preference), etc. Why just pick flag in / out?
		
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It was a covid special measures related question.  Folk have been getting annoyed about the flag needing to stay in (including me) but given all the noises, is it really a show stopper?  Not in my view.


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## sunshine (Apr 16, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			It doesn't waste time.

In your two ball scenario, both with long putts, unless they are both terrible putters, they will want to look at the putt from a couple of different angles, and probably from behind the hole as well. In which case, one of them stays there while the other putts, and then while the first one walks up to mark his ball, the other one walks back to his.
		
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I remember playing in a medal with this guy who wanted to look at every putt from behind the ball and behind the hole. He must have been watching the pros do it on tv.

He did it on the first 4 holes. Got to the 5th green, his ball has trickled on to the front left of the green, pin is back right. We're all standing around the green waiting, I'm attending the flag while he crouches behind the ball. He then starts striding up the green to look at the putt from behind the hole. It must have been over 100 feet, that's a 60 yard round trip. So you're saying that doesn't waste time?

My playing partner told him to hurry up. In hindsight it was pretty funny.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			For me, courtesy is offered rather than being expected.
		
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If courtesy isn't expected, then as an example, you won't mind if I just reply by saying you're an idiot? 

Now, I'm obviously joking to make the point but courtesy is a reasonable expectation to have in life.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			No one has suggested people will want flags attended all the time, but on the odd, rare occassion someone asks for it to be attended then why not, they’ll obviously have a reason and* why would you chuckle to yourself* or think anything apart from, no problem if that’s what they’d like.

Really don’t understand why people have to cite extremes to prove a point, to me it simply shows some are overthinking the issue and don’t want to compromise.
		
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Because it would be an unusual outdated requested by that point. I'd do it for them though, no problem, I'd just be chuckling internally about how silly and unnecessary it is.

I didn't say anything extreme? Unless that point was aimed at others. I just meant to point out that the pages of debate on this are a bit daft when it is my belief that it will hardly ever happen in the future (being asked to attend).


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## sunshine (Apr 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can’t imagine why any opponent would get wound up
		
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It's clear from the responses on this thread that it would wind some people up!

Personally, I couldn't care less. I can't imagine asking someone to tend the flag again, but I'm happy to do it for others.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Of course it is.
Have the flag out or in is great, whatever suits,  but expecting someone to stand there holding the flag while your 40 foot putt whizzes by is just ridiculous and a waste of thier time.
		
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The person hitting the putt decides if it's necessary to have the flag tended not you.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			The person hitting the putt decides if it's necessary to have the flag tended not you.
		
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It can never be _necessary_ since they changed the rule on it - it would just be their own quirky preference.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It can never be _necessary_ since they changed the rule on it - it would just be their own quirky preference.
		
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Of course it can be necessary if that person deems it so. The person playing the shot decides what is necessary end of.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Of course it can be necessary if that person deems it so. The person playing the shot decides what is necessary end of.
		
Click to expand...

Well, no, you're wrong. It was necessary when the rule said the ball couldn't hit the flag, but you were far enough away that you couldn't see the hole. Now the rule doesn't say that, you can just leave the flag in, so it cannot be 'necessary' to have it attended. It would just be your preference to do that.


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## USER1999 (Apr 16, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I remember playing in a medal with this guy who wanted to look at every putt from behind the ball and behind the hole. He must have been watching the pros do it on tv.

He did it on the first 4 holes. Got to the 5th green, his ball has trickled on to the front left of the green, pin is back right. We're all standing around the green waiting, I'm attending the flag while he crouches behind the ball. He then starts striding up the green to look at the putt from behind the hole. It must have been over 100 feet, that's a 60 yard round trip. So you're saying that doesn't waste time?

My playing partner told him to hurry up. In hindsight it was pretty funny.
		
Click to expand...

No more than aim point would.

There are plenty of ways to waste time playing golf. Some have the effect of reducing the number of shots, some don't. Personally, I would ban having a line on the golf ball for alignment. I don't think it works, and it takes time that in my view is unnecessary. I would never criticise someone for doing it.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)




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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well, no, you're wrong. It was necessary when the rule said the ball couldn't hit the flag, but you were far enough away that you couldn't see the hole. Now the rule doesn't say that, you can just leave the flag in, so it cannot be 'necessary' to have it attended. It would just be your preference to do that.
		
Click to expand...

I play on an exposed course over looking the North Sea, I’ve had pp’s hold the flag upright with their putter as the wind can be that bad, so in future if on some of our greens I was far enough away to want the flag attended rather than left in as it is leaning towards me why would you see that as outdated?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



View attachment 36212

Click to expand...

Nobody is questioning that, now show us were it says having the flag ATTENDED slows play down.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

If we were playing a hole and I told you it's not necessary to hit driver use 3 wood instead because I prefer that club off the tee but your preference was to hit driver would you put it back in the bag and hit 3 w? Of course you wouldn't, you go with your preferred choice.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody is questioning that, now show us were it says having the flag ATTENDED slows play down.
		
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How can it not? I'd be wasting my time tending the flag when I could be doing something else..


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody is questioning that, now show us were it says having the flag ATTENDED slows play down.
		
Click to expand...

Is this clear enough?


😂🤣😂


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			If we were playing a hole and I told you it's not necessary to hit driver use 3 wood instead because I prefer that club off the tee but your preference was to hit driver would you put it back in the bag and hit 3 w? Of course you wouldn't, you go with your preferred choice.
		
Click to expand...

That's just weird whatiffery. 
There is no longer any reason to have the flag tended.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			That's just weird whatiffery.
There is no longer any reason to have the flag tended.
		
Click to expand...

If someone looks at a putt and feels more confident about holing it with the flag tended then they are perfectly within their rights regardless of what you think.


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold:
You play in a Comp/Open/Society day whatever and you are drawn with strangers, introduce yourself on the first tee and off you go, early on in the round a pp asks you to attend the flag and as you don’t know them are you going to refuse?
		
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Of course not. I did not say I would refuse any reasonable request. If someone asks for help, I will gladly offer it. If someone clearly needs help, I will not wait to be asked, in any scenario in life. 
I just like self-sufficiency.



Jimaroid said:



			If courtesy isn't expected, then as an example, you won't mind if I just reply by saying you're an idiot? 

Now, I'm obviously joking to make the point but courtesy is a reasonable expectation to have in life.
		
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It I was to ask my playing partners to participate in a prayer to the Green Man before every putt, because it was part of my superstitious pre-shot routine, would you consider it discourteous to refuse? That's how I feel about tended flags. It's a psychological crutch that you might as well leave in the past.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I play on an exposed course over looking the North Sea, I’ve had pp’s hold the flag upright with their putter as the wind can be that bad, so in future if on some of our greens I was far enough away to want the flag attended rather than left in as it is leaning towards me why would you see that as outdated?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call that attending the flag because there's no requirement to pull it out when the ball approaches. What you're saying is more steadying the flag.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			If someone looks at a putt and feels more confident about holing it with the flag tended then they are perfectly within their rights regardless of what you think.
		
Click to expand...

They sure can, but i'm not doing it for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Is this clear enough?
View attachment 36213

😂🤣😂
		
Click to expand...

You mean the bit that CLEARLY STATES A PLAYER WILL “CONTINUE TO HAVE A CHOICE TO HAVE IT REMOVED (WHICH INCLUDES HAVING SOMEONE ATTEND THE FLAGSTICK”

Therefore, if you play the game, respect the rules and respect your pp choice, IT’S NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE WHETHER SOMEONE ELSE WANTS THE FLAGSTICK ATTENDED.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I wouldn't call that attending the flag because there's no requirement to pull it out when the ball approaches. What you're saying is more steadying the flag.
		
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I want it left in so I can see were the hole is, I want it out incase it deflects off the Flagstick, the only way to do both is to have it attended.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean the bit that CLEARLY STATES A PLAYER WILL “CONTINUE TO HAVE A CHOICE TO HAVE IT REMOVED (WHICH INCLUDES HAVING SOMEONE ATTEND THE FLAGSTICK”

Therefore, if you play the game, respect the rules and respect your pp choice, IT’S NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE WHETHER SOMEONE ELSE WANTS THE FLAGSTICK ATTENDED.
		
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Do you have me confused with someone else?
I have not said I wouldn't do it if asked.
People pushed for evidence that having the flag tended slowed down play. The decision makers in the game believe that it does.
I would not ask for a pin to be tended now as I believe there is zero need for it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			They sure can, but i'm not doing it for them.
		
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Good for you 👍


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## JamesR (Apr 16, 2021)

I think that matchplay was the time when tending was necessary and a faff.
If one player was on the green but further away than his opponent, who was off the green. The one, in the bunker say, had to tend for the one on the green.

Removing that will speed up play, but it was rare.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I want it left in so I can see were the hole is, I want it out incase it deflects off the Flagstick, the only way to do both is to have it attended.
		
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How often would you hole a putt that you need attended?
These tour stats (2010) are interesting:
https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/51757-pga-tour-putts-gainedmake-percentage-stats/
Tour pros only hole 7% of 30 footers and 3% of 50 footers.
Are people who continue to ask for the flag to be tended kidding myself on about it being necessary?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Do you have me confused with someone else?
I have not said I wouldn't do it if asked.
People pushed for evidence that having the flag tended slowed down play. The decision makers in the game believe that it does.
I would not ask for a pin to be tended now as I believe there is zero need for it.
		
Click to expand...

I think you need to go back and read your posts from wednesday were you state tending the flag should be consigned to history and you agreeing with posts saying it should be banned etc.

Again, nobody on here supporting pins being attended has suggested they want the flag attended on every putt, just that they would expect a pp to attend it for them if they saw the need and  without being made to feel guilty or being labelled a dinosaur.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			How often would you hole a putt that you need attended?
These tour stats (2010) are interesting:
https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/51757-pga-tour-putts-gainedmake-percentage-stats/
Tour pros only hole 7% of 30 footers and 3% of 50 footers.
Are people who continue to ask for the flag to be tended kidding myself on about it being necessary?
		
Click to expand...

It might be I never ask for it to be attended or I might ask 20 times a year, the fact is, it’s my choice and you can either do it or refuse, if you refuse I’d suggest it would say a lot more about you than it would me.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I want it left in so I can see were the hole is,* I want it out incase it deflects off the Flagstick*, the only way to do both is to have it attended.
		
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No, you said you were holding it because of the wind? The bit in bold is just your personal feeling or whim, so it is not *necessary* to attend the flag - as I said earlier. If you're still going to disagree with me then you need to look up the definition of the word necessary. It was necessary before because hitting the flag meant a penalty - that's not the case now.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			How often would you hole a putt that you need attended?
These tour stats (2010) are interesting:
https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/51757-pga-tour-putts-gainedmake-percentage-stats/
Tour pros only hole 7% of 30 footers and 3% of 50 footers.
Are people who continue to ask for the flag to be tended kidding myself on about it being necessary?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			No, you said you were holding it because of the wind? The bit in bold is just your personal feeling or whim, so it is not *necessary* to attend the flag - as I said earlier. If you're still going to disagree with me then you need to look up the definition of the word necessary. It was necessary before because hitting the flag meant a penalty - that's not the case now.
		
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If the risk of the wind is there then I would also be hitting it harder, I want the flagstick removed once I’ve played the putt, I want the risk of it hitting the pin too hard fully removed, my choice.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If the risk of the wind is there then I would also be hitting it harder, I want the flagstick removed once I’ve played the putt, I want the risk of it hitting the pin too hard fully removed, my choice.
		
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Yeah I agree it's your choice! That's not the same as it being necessary that's all!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

🤦‍♂️

It’s nice and simple

Tending the flag is allowed within the rules 

As long as someone is acting within the rules then I would expect his fellow golfers to be respectful of those wishes 

We are all golfers who are supposed to respect each other when playing. Remember we all approach the game in different ways and it’s all about finding a way that we can all enjoy playing the game 

If someone wants the flag tended then it’s within the rules and we would respect those persons wishes just as we would help people search for balls , repair their pitchmarks , rake bunkers , be quiet when people are playing their shot , stand in the the appropriate place 

If tending was unnecessary then why do the Pros continue to do it when the flag can be left in


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			How often would you hole a putt that you need attended?
These tour stats (2010) are interesting:
https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/51757-pga-tour-putts-gainedmake-percentage-stats/
Tour pros only hole 7% of 30 footers and 3% of 50 footers.
Are people who continue to ask for the flag to be tended kidding myself on about it being necessary?
		
Click to expand...

And dont forget they are tour stats.. Handicap golfers are even less lilkey to hole from range.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

It’s nice and simple

Tending the flag is allowed within the rules

As long as someone is acting within the rules then I would expect his fellow golfers to be respectful of those wishes

We are all golfers who are supposed to respect each other when playing. Remember we all approach the game in different ways and it’s all about finding a way that we can all enjoy playing the game

If someone wants the flag tended then it’s within the rules and we would respect those persons wishes just as we would help people search for balls , repair their pitchmarks , rake bunkers , be quiet when people are playing their shot , stand in the the appropriate place

If tending was unnecessary then why do the Pros continue to do it when the flag can be left in
		
Click to expand...

It's a mix these days, some have the flag in some out and some tended. They also have a caddie to do it for them.
There is no comparison to be had with the pros.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			It's a mix these days, some have the flag in some out and some tended. They also have a caddie to do it for them.
There is no comparison to be had with the pros.
		
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Of course there is a comparison - they want the flag tended for a reason , because they don’t want the flag in the hole when the ball is going towards it’s too ensure that the flag has no affect on the ball going in - why can’t Amateur golfers have that same belief ?


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## sunshine (Apr 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

It’s nice and simple

Tending the flag is allowed within the rules

As long as someone is acting within the rules then I would expect his fellow golfers to be respectful of those wishes

We are all golfers who are supposed to respect each other when playing. Remember we all approach the game in different ways and it’s all about finding a way that we can all enjoy playing the game

If someone wants the flag tended then it’s within the rules and we would respect those persons wishes just as we would help people search for balls , repair their pitchmarks , rake bunkers , be quiet when people are playing their shot , stand in the the appropriate place

If tending was unnecessary then why do the Pros continue to do it when the flag can be left in
		
Click to expand...

I'll tend the flagstick for you if you are wearing long socks. If you've got black socks on you can forget it.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			It I was to ask my playing partners to participate in a prayer to the Green Man before every putt, because it was part of my superstitious pre-shot routine, would you consider it discourteous to refuse? That's how I feel about tended flags. It's a psychological crutch that you might as well leave in the past.
		
Click to expand...

Prayer isn't in the rules of golf, attending a flag is. So I'd politely decline, which in itself is a courteous way to handle a situation such as that.

Anyway, the problem with saying things should stay in the past is how far back do you go? Back to when flags didn't exist? The rules are the rules, they are curated for all and no one person gets to pick and choose on a whim or preference. 

There's a word for people who do pick and choose which rules do or don't apply to them. Begins with C, it's a curious word that can rhyme with both meat and punt.


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Prayer isn't in the rules of golf, attending a flag is. So I'd politely decline, which in itself is a courteous way to handle a situation such as that.

Anyway, the problem with saying things should stay in the past is how far back do you go? Back to when flags didn't exist? The rules are the rules, they are curated for all and no one person gets to pick and choose on a whim or preference. 

There's a word for people who do pick and choose which rules do or don't apply to them. Begins with C, it's a curious word that can rhyme with both meat and punt. 

Click to expand...

Some people's concepts of politeness and courtesy are curious.
Rules, rules, rules and etiquette on the golf course, lack of social niceties in a conversation about golf.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You'd expect someone to do something that is no longer necessary?, I'd have to say if you asked me I'd say no.
		
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Really !
You would be standing there for a very long time until you did.
It’s my choice not yours.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

TigerBear said:



			Keep the rule for now. As a previous poster said, if it saves at least a single life or has prevented one person from becoming infected then it has been a success *thumbs up*
		
Click to expand...

Keeping all the clubhouses and pubs shut then ?


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

The current rule from England Golf and Scottish Golf:
Do not touch the flag or flagstick. Putt with the flagstick in and remove your own ball from the hole.



Jimaroid said:



			The rules are the rules, they are curated for all and no one person gets to pick and choose on a whim or preference. 
There's a word for people who do pick and choose which rules do or don't apply to them. Begins with C, it's a curious word that can rhyme with both meat and punt. 

Click to expand...

Do people who pick and choose when to apply this rule fit in with your sounds-like?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Interesting way this has gone - not sure how I'd feel about attending a flag in the short term post pandemic - but I won't be shaking hands with anyone or hugging anyone outside my family in the foreseeable future.
		
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That's an interesting take. I wonder if post pandamic will people see s refusal to attend the flag based on no chance am I touching that 

But at same time will people refuse to remove the flag for someone aswell


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			The current rule from England Golf and Scottish Golf:
Do not touch the flag or flagstick. Putt with the flagstick in and remove your own ball from the hole.
Do people who pick and choose when to apply this rule fit in with your sounds-like?
		
Click to expand...

It was obvious to me that Jimaroid was referring to when we are allowed to touch the flag again.


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's an interesting take. I wonder if post pandamic will people see s refusal to attend the flag based on no chance am I touching that 

But at same time will people refuse to remove the flag for someone aswell
		
Click to expand...

In 297 replies, I think only one poster had said they would actually refuse. The flag-in folks, of which I'm one, are saying they'd do it for someone else, even though they don't think it's necessary.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			It was obvious to me that Jimaroid was referring to when we are allowed to touch the flag again.
		
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When we are allowed to touch the flags and when there is no risk of Covid from touching it might be a big difference in dates


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But at same time will people refuse to remove the flag for someone aswell
		
Click to expand...

The expression "what goes around comes around" springs to mind. If someone refused to tend a flag when asked then at some point in the future a PP will refuse to help them look for a ball or something similar. I play golf to enjoy myself and make new friends, I like to think others do so for the same reasons, not to antagonise people.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			The expression "what goes around comes around" springs to mind. If someone refused to tend a flag when asked then at some point in the future a PP will refuse to help them look for a ball or something similar. I play golf to enjoy myself and make new friends, I like to think others do so for the same reasons, not to antagonise people.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying that or to antagonist

But what if someone said to you

Sorry I don't feel comfortable attending that flag due to the risk of covid ... I've had my jabs but still A risk. 

Would you judge the same?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not saying that or to antagonist

But what if someone said to you

Sorry I don't feel comfortable attending that flag due to the risk of covid ... I've had my jabs but still A risk.

Would you judge the same?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, the discussion is about the principle of tending not the covid risk. Once it is safe to touch the flag I would have no hesitation asking someone to tend it if I felt it was appropriate.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I don't think anyone is suggesting that, the discussion is about the principle of tending not the covid risk. Once it is safe to touch the flag I would have no hesitation asking someone to tend it if I felt it was appropriate.
		
Click to expand...

However as someone has stated covid will be around forever pretty much 

Is somebody not within their right to say sorry but I really don't feel comfortable 

Same with a hand shake at end .. would you been offended if you put our your hand and they reply with a fist bump or elbow ..


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

I Googled, to see if science could settle the flag in/out debate. It didn't help.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			I Googled, to see if science could settle the flag in/out debate. It didn't help.
View attachment 36215

Click to expand...

Regardless of what the science says, every golfer will judge it on their own experience. When we have free choice I'll go back to taking the flag out for 'makeable' 3-5 footers and leaving it in the rest of the time. But, I'm not bothered about leaving them in right now as we have to. One thing is for sure though, I will never again be asking anyone to attend the flag. 🤣


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## PieMan (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However as someone has stated covid will be around forever pretty much

Is somebody not within their right to say sorry but I really don't feel comfortable

Same with a hand shake at end .. would you been offended if you put our your hand and they reply with a fist bump or elbow ..
		
Click to expand...

Surely if someone doesn't want to tend a flag due to Covid, then they won't want to bump fists or touch elbows with a playing partner or partners at the end of a round?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Surely if someone doesn't want to tend a flag due to Covid, then they won't want to bump fists or touch elbows with a playing partner or partners at the end of a round?
		
Click to expand...

The example doesn't have to be same person 

What if someone says sorry I'm not comfortable attending the flag because of covid risk 

Or politely refuses a hand shake ..

Everyone going to kick up a fuss because it's part of the game?


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## banjofred (Apr 16, 2021)

During the round.....and end of the round......


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## PieMan (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The example doesn't have to be same person

What if someone says sorry I'm not comfortable attending the flag because of covid risk

Or politely refuses a hand shake ..

Everyone going to kick up a fuss because it's part of the game?
		
Click to expand...

Saying "sorry I don't want to tend the flag because of Covid" is a pretty pish poor excuse when they've been quite happy to spend a few hours in the company of someone who may be carrying the disease! 

Unless of course they've said at the start of the round "Please respect social distancing rules today. As such that means I'm afraid I won't spending any time interacting with you, including helping you look for any lost balls". 

Perhaps if people are so worried about tending the odd flag, they could play in masks? Maybe get round the issue by wearing 2 gloves and not taking them off till the end? 

How about clubs taping hand sanitisers to every pin?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Saying "sorry I don't want to tend the flag because of Covid" is a pretty pish poor excuse when they've been quite happy to spend a few hours in the company of someone who may be carrying the disease! 

Unless of course they've said at the start of the round "Please respect social distancing rules today. As such that means I'm afraid I won't spending any time interacting with you, including helping you look for any lost balls". 

Perhaps if people are so worried about tending the odd flag, they could play in masks? Maybe get round the issue by wearing 2 gloves and not taking them off till the end? 

How about clubs taping hand sanitisers to every pin?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but this is a complete load of rubbish . You are outdoors. If somebody is 2m away it's different ...

Looking for balls you wouldn't be within 2 metres

But touching the same flag is something that could lead it transmission

Considering some on here won't even get a take away incase somebody has the illness and brings it in via the packaging I think touching the flag could be a valid reason

If you can't see the difference between being outdoors in someone's company 2 metres apart and touching a flag someone else has touched as two completely different things then you really need to study transmission


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## BridgfordBlue (Apr 16, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			When we are allowed to touch the flags and when there is no risk of Covid from touching it might be a big difference in dates
		
Click to expand...

Could argue that’s already the case just the alternate way round, given an individual could do things now that could allow them to touch the flags and have essentially no risk of Covid from it. Far less than other things that are allowed, at the very least.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Really !
You would be standing there for a very long time until you did.
It’s my choice not yours.
		
Click to expand...

Standing where? I'd putt out move on and leave you to it mate.

This thread is just an excuse to make a fuss over nothing. Pre rule changeI had the odd long putt tended due to the chance of hitting the flag and getting a penalty.

Post change that possibility has gone along with the need to have the flag tended.
You would really waste someones time and ask them to do it for no reason at all?
I find that pretty poor, wanting something just because you can.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not saying that or to antagonist

But what if someone said to you

Sorry I don't feel comfortable attending that flag due to the risk of covid ... I've had my jabs but still A risk.

Would you judge the same?
		
Click to expand...

If someone has a genuine reason for not attending the flag then any fair minded person will accept it on either risk the pin in or out.

If someone is using Covid as an excuse because they simply don’t want to attend the flag, they need to take a long hard look at themselves and I for one would rather not spend time in their company.


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## PieMan (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but this is a complete load of rubbish . You are outdoors. If somebody is 2m away it's different ...

Looking for balls you wouldn't be within 2 metres

But touching the same flag is something that could lead it transmission

Considering some on here won't even get a take away incase somebody has the illness and brings it in via the packaging I think touching the flag could be a valid reason

If you can't see the difference between being outdoors in someone's company 2 metres apart and touching a flag someone else has touched as two completely different things then you really need to study transmission
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂 

So if you see someone inadvertently touching a flag or pin in your group are you going to immediately  run off from the course screaming 'unclean unclean' at the top of your voice?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Standing where? I'd putt out move on and leave you to it mate.

*This thread is just an excuse to make a fuss over nothing. *Pre rule changeI had the odd long putt tended due to the chance of hitting the flag and getting a penalty.

Post change that possibility has gone along with the need to have the flag tended.
You would really waste someones time and ask them to do it for no reason at all?
I find that pretty poor, wanting something just because you can.
		
Click to expand...

Then stop making a fuss and tend the flag, there's a good chap.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If someone has a genuine reason for not attending the flag then any fair minded person will accept it on either risk the pin in or out.

If someone is using Covid as an excuse because they simply don’t want to attend the flag, they need to take a long hard look at themselves and I for one would rather not spend time in their company.
		
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Not saying someone would use as excuse but if somebody said it to you. Most people would accept it


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

PieMan said:



			😂😂😂 

So if you see someone inadvertently touching a flag or pin in your group are you going to immediately  run off from the course screaming 'unclean unclean' at the top of your voice?
		
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Handgel ...

I have no problem attending if asked but I'd hand gel afters. To reduce risk 

I'm sure many wouldn't care but I'm sure some wouldn't even want to touch it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			That's just weird whatiffery.
There is no longer any reason to have the flag tended.
		
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Some here really need to stop arguing the absurd.  If the flag is on the top level of a stepped green and I cannot see the hole, and yet I want the flag to be out when the ball gets to the hole, then there is every reason for me having the flag attended. It’s not going to happen very often, but it’s really not difficult to understand and accept that sometimes a player may very legitimately wish it so.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some here really need to stop arguing the absurd.  If the flag is on the top level of a stepped green and I cannot see the hole, and yet I want the flag to be out when the ball gets to the hole, then there is every reason for me having the flag attended. It’s not going to happen very often, but it’s really not difficult to understand and accept that sometimes a player may very legitimately wish it so.
		
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So you would have someone else stand there like a lemon just to improve your chance of holing it from 0.1 to 0.2% (which in all likelihood is only in your imagination anyway)? Seems a bit selfish to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However as someone has stated covid will be around forever pretty much

_*Is somebody not within their right to say sorry but I really don't feel comfortable*_

Same with a hand shake at end .. would you been offended if you put our your hand and they reply with a fist bump or elbow ..
		
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This is a good point.  I would simply say though that anybody with such concerns can do like I have been doing for the last year when out for a walk...i take a small pack of tissues with me so that any time I had to open a gate I used a tissue so I would not have to touch the metal with my hand, then put the used tissue in a bag to be disposed of later. I would often also carried a small bottle of hand gel to give my hands a quick clean if I ever felt it necessary.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			So you would have someone else stand there like a lemon just to improve your chance of holing it from 0.1 to 0.2% (which in all likelihood is only in your imagination anyway)? Seems a bit selfish to me. 

Click to expand...

No - just asking for the flag to be attended for a putt as we have been able to do for the last 150+ years.  I honestly cannot recall _attending_ the flag being considered a significant cause of slow play or a cause for someone to feel like a lemon.  Certainly in my mere 50yrs of playing the game I have never once felt like a lemon when attending a flag.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but this is a complete load of rubbish . You are outdoors. If somebody is 2m away it's different ...

Looking for balls you wouldn't be within 2 metres

But touching the same flag is something that could lead it transmission

Considering some on here won't even get a take away incase somebody has the illness and brings it in via the packaging I think touching the flag could be a valid reason

If you can't see the difference between being outdoors in someone's company 2 metres apart and touching a flag someone else has touched as two completely different things then you really need to study transmission
		
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Yes I agree.
If I asked and he said he didn’t want to because of fear of COVID that’s fair enough.
I would not want to make anyone uncomfortable on the course.
But let’s be honest, it’s going to be next year imo before we can touch a flag anyway.


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## Orikoru (Apr 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - just asking for the flag to be attended for a putt as we have been able to do for the last 150+ years.  I honestly cannot recall _attending_ the flag being considered a significant cause of slow play or a cause for someone to feel like a lemon.  Certainly in my mere 50yrs of playing the game I have never once felt like a lemon when attending a flag.
		
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Well that's because it was necessary to save that player getting a penalty for hitting the flag. Different kettle of fish now.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some here really need to stop arguing the absurd.  If the flag is on the top level of a stepped green and I cannot see the hole, and yet I want the flag to be out when the ball gets to the hole, then there is every reason for me having the flag attended. It’s not going to happen very often, but it’s really not difficult to understand and accept that sometimes a player may very legitimately wish it so.
		
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Want the pin out in case you hole a putt that would take you about 100 attempts.🤔


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not saying someone would use as excuse but if somebody said it to you. Most people would accept it
		
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Then it’s irrelevant to the discussion, any genuine reason for a person to avoid doing something they don’t wish too should be accepted.

But you have posted how attending the flag should be consigned to history or those wanting it attended are wasting time etc.

These other points are simply deflection.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			So you would have someone else stand there like a lemon just to improve your chance of holing it from 0.1 to 0.2% (which in all likelihood is only in your imagination anyway)? Seems a bit selfish to me. 

Click to expand...

Selfish? Really? Someone asks if you'll tend the flag, you hold it until theyve putted then pull it out and place it on the ground, exactly as you would if you were removing it anyway. Really not hard a thing to do, and absolutely doesn't take any more time.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Want the pin out in case you hole a putt that would take you about 100 attempts.🤔
		
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Which in most probability would have a better chance of holing it with the pin in


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## SaintHacker (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Want the pin out in case you hole a putt that would take you about 100 attempts.🤔
		
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Why would it take him 100 attempts? He might a demon putter, or are you just being obtuse again?


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## dronfield (Apr 16, 2021)

Allowing the flag to be left in when putting was most def brought in by the R&A/USGA as part of their efforts to speed up the pace of play - this move, as mentioned should have biggest impact in amateur game, as pros have caddies.
I remember Paul McGinley discussing this very subject during commentary on Sky - his view was that is was wrong for pros to leave flag in for putts of say 10 ft inwards because they were simply using it as a backstop, which was not in the spirit of the rule change, which was to speed up play (predominantly in the amateur game).

Rich


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Then it’s irrelevant to the discussion, any genuine reason for a person to avoid doing something they don’t wish too should be accepted.

But you have posted how attending the flag should be consigned to history or those wanting it attended are wasting time etc.

These other points are simply deflection.
		
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In your opinion

If somebody asked me to attend the flag id do same as @Orikoru do it but think it's a bit of a waste of time and outdated.

But to those defending it to the hill how it's their choice. It's also somebodies choice to feel unsafe or not due to covid risks even when the risk is greatly reduced..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			In your opinion

If somebody asked me to attend the flag id do same as @Orikoru do it but think it's a bit of a waste of time and outdated.

But to those defending it to the hill how it's their choice. It's also somebodies choice to feel unsafe or not due to covid risks even when the risk is greatly reduced..
		
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It’s all opinions, but lets be honest, the Governing bodies have deemed the flag being attended to as OK and within the rules and absolutely 100% nothing to do with covid when that decision was made, yet you are accussing us of defending it to the hill, when in effect we are the open minded ones saying it’s a choice, something you wish to remove.

If in the future if they banned attending the flag, we’d accept it, were as your type will look for the next thing you don’t like and invent scenarios to prove why that should be changed.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s all opinions, but lets be honest, the Governing bodies have deemed the flag being attended to as OK and within the rules and absolutely 100% nothing to do with covid when that decision was made, yet you are accussing us of defending it to the hill, when in effect we are the open minded ones saying it’s a choice, something you wish to remove.

If in the future if they banned attending the flag, we’d accept it, were as your type will look for the next thing you don’t like and invent scenarios to prove why that should be changed.
		
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No if you re read what I said fully. I believe when the rule was changed for flag to be left in I think they added an unneeded option in attending. As pointed out by a few people now the ball can drop with the flag in legally it really isn't needed 

If they made it illegal then 20 years down the line people would still do it. People don't keep up fully with the rules. Still have those that think single players have no standing etc.


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Why would it take him 100 attempts? He might a demon putter, or are you just being obtuse again?
		
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Nope.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

I’m still amazed that some people have an issue with others wanting to do something that is within the rules of golf - is there anything you won’t allow them to do ?


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m still amazed that some people have an issue with others wanting to do something that is within the rules of golf - is there anything you won’t allow them to do ?
		
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I sometimes get drawn with a guy who wants me to mark my ball when it's on the green on his line of play. I wouldn't mind but he is pitching in from around 100 yards, not a big problem for me as I have to walk up to the green anyway


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You would really waste someones time and ask them to do it for no reason at all?
I find that pretty poor, wanting something just because you can.
		
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It's just as easy to turn this round and accuse you of being the time waster by refusing to tend the flag.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 16, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I sometimes get drawn with a guy who wants me to mark my ball when it's on the green on his line of play. I wouldn't mind but he is pitching in from around 100 yards, not a big problem for me as I have to walk up to the green anyway
		
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He is within his rights but yes that is taking things to the extreme.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No if you re read what I said fully. I believe when the rule was changed for flag to be left in I think they added an unneeded option in attending. As pointed out by a few people now the ball can drop with the flag in legally it really isn't needed

If they made it illegal then 20 years down the line people would still do it. People don't keep up fully with the rules. Still have those that think single players have no standing etc.
		
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They didn’t add anything and let’s be honest, who knows what’s best for the game? The Governing Bodies or some bloke who works for LT?

As already been explained but not fitting your agenda, on some greens depending on pin position the hole cannot be seen, it’s also possible due to bad work by a greenkeeper or due to weather the flagstick can lean towards the part of the hole the ball will enter and stop the ball from dropping, having it attended on these rare occassions a player can request it is attended. 

For whatever reason you and a few others seem to be totally selfcentred and believe that the choice should be removed, personally I think yous are intelligent enough to recognise this but have been so vocal in your opposition that you now have to dig in and defend your position by introducing covid and other extremes in to the debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			I sometimes get drawn with a guy who wants me to mark my ball when it's on the green on his line of play. I wouldn't mind but he is pitching in from around 100 yards, not a big problem for me as I have to walk up to the green anyway
		
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There will always be people who take it to the extreme

In regards the people who won’t touch the flag because of Covid , how will they be expected to rake a bunker when they go in one ?


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## Jimaroid (Apr 16, 2021)

How do people who can’t touch flags because of Covid deal with door handles? It must be a living nightmare for them.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			How do people who can’t touch flags because of Covid deal with door handles? It must be a living nightmare for them.
		
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It's probably causing a world wide shortage of hand gel.


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## PNWokingham (Apr 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			How do people who can’t touch flags because of Covid deal with door handles? It must be a living nightmare for them.
		
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And if you are scared of touching the flag and can't find a way of doing it without causing yourself a heart attack - hand gel, hold a tissue or something - you should not be on the golf course


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## SaintHacker (Apr 16, 2021)

So has anyone ever refused to touch a flagstick in case they get a commonn cold/flu/norovirus etc etc?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			They didn’t add anything and let’s be honest, who knows what’s best for the game? The Governing Bodies or some bloke who works for LT?

As already been explained but not fitting your agenda, on some greens depending on pin position the hole cannot be seen, it’s also possible due to bad work by a greenkeeper or due to weather the flagstick can lean towards the part of the hole the ball will enter and stop the ball from dropping, having it attended on these rare occassions a player can request it is attended. 

For whatever reason you and a few others seem to be totally selfcentred and believe that the choice should be removed, personally I think yous are intelligent enough to recognise this but have been so vocal in your opposition that you now have to dig in and defend your position by introducing covid and other extremes in to the debate.
		
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Afraid you have taken two posts .. added them together and come up with the wrong conclusion..

Yes I believe attending is outdated 

No I would not refuse doing it 

Covid is a seperate issue 

I'd still attend but gel my hand afters 

I was simply saying how would people reach to someone who wasn't comfortable 

Claim it suits my agenda all you want. However now your just talking rubbish


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## RichA (Apr 16, 2021)

This is comically bizarre. I have still only seen one post where anyone has said that they wouldn't tend a flag in a game of golf, but the conversation has gone polar to the point of zealotry.

A very clever lady said, "We are more alike my friends, than we are unalike."
Worth remembering.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Afraid you have taken two posts .. added them together and come up with the wrong conclusion..

Yes I believe attending is outdated

No I would not refuse doing it

Covid is a seperate issue

I'd still attend but gel my hand afters

I was simply saying how would people reach to someone who wasn't comfortable

Claim it suits my agenda all you want. However now your just talking rubbish
		
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Never you is it, you have constantly since this thread started butted heads with everyone who has no issue with the flag being attended, time and time again saying the Governing Bodies got it wrong, it’ll die out, confined to history, 21st Century etc etc, but yet you would attend it if asked, so it obviously isn’t the big issue you claim.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Never you is it, you have constantly since this thread started butted heads with everyone who has no issue with the flag being attended, time and time again saying the Governing Bodies got it wrong, it’ll die out, confined to history, 21st Century etc etc, but yet you would attend it if asked, so it obviously isn’t the big issue you claim.

Click to expand...

I have no issue doing it. But I think it's stupid, outdated and pointless.

Much like talking to you on any issue but I still do it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I have no issue doing it. But I think it's stupid, outdated and pointless.

Much like talking to you on any issue but I still do it.
		
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And another insult, please feel free to ignore me as I’ll be ignoring you from here on in, don’t worry though it’s not your fault.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			And another insult, please feel free to ignore me as I’ll be ignoring you from here on in, don’t worry though it’s not your fault.
		
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I'm not a Liverpool fan thanks


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## KenL (Apr 16, 2021)

drive4show said:



			He is within his rights but yes that is taking things to the extreme.
		
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Within his rights, perhaps, but absolutely ridiculous.  Deserves to be ridiculed for that.  Next they'll be asking you to tend the pin from 100 yards just like Phil M did one time. 😂


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## ger147 (Apr 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Within his rights, perhaps, but absolutely ridiculous.  Deserves to be ridiculed for that.  Next they'll be asking you to tend the pin from 100 yards just like Phil M did one time. 😂
		
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I'm more than happy to tend the pin if someone wants me to when they're putting but anyone who thinks I'm walking 100 yards to mark a ball before they play an approach shot can go whistle...


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## JamesR (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm not a Liverpool fan thanks
		
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What a weird response 🤷🏻‍♂️

Is it meant to be funny, clever or meaningful?


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## backwoodsman (Apr 16, 2021)

I wonder when folk will realise that the horse is dead and has been well and truly flogged ??


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## JamesR (Apr 16, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I wonder when folk will realise that the horse is dead and has been well and truly flogged ??
		
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Not anytime soon

You’ve got to remember that, to a lot of people, opinion is the same as fact


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			Habits are important, but likewise the science moved on from the start of the pandemic to show transmission from surfaces is negligible as well as the presence of vaccine now so I think it's reasonable to ask which Covid measures need to be kept (e.g. distancing) and those that can be relaxed further. Just the same as any other part of easing lockdown.

Saying that I don't really care either way on flag or rake given how often it actually impacts but the comments (not yours) seem to be a bit harsh about the US.
		
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Where is that conclusion from, that transmission from surfaces is negligible?
Cold and flu viruses were always considered more transmissible that way before Covid came on the scene. 
However, because it was not proveable evidentially* for  Covid doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of transmission.
* To prove beyond doubt that a virus is caught in a particular way means that you have to eliminate all other means. Clearly you can never prove transmission by touch to that standard because people don't live in a vacuum and so it could always be said that another way of transmission was possible.
Thus the " proof "isn't certain.
But you know and I know that if viruses can live for days on metal surfaces and can be picked up by hands if those surfaces are touched, then transmission is thus achieved on quite a lot of those occasions.
Playing lawyer with the argument is being in denial.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Standing where? I'd putt out move on and leave you to it mate.

This thread is just an excuse to make a fuss over nothing. Pre rule changeI had the odd long putt tended due to the chance of hitting the flag and getting a penalty.

Post change that possibility has gone along with the need to have the flag tended.
You would really waste someones time and ask them to do it for no reason at all?
I find that pretty poor, wanting something just because you can.
		
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I like the flag out.
But my eyesight isn’t that good from 40’ so I ask you attend the flag for me !
You refuse.
If it was matchplay you would be standing on the green on your own.
Medal play I would hope one of the other players had the manners to help me .

Would be interested to hear from the comittiee guys on this if somebody refuses your request to attend the flag and you have a stalemate .
He won’t tend so I won’t putt.
If I walk away and claim the match what’s the comittiee decision.?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Saying "sorry I don't want to tend the flag because of Covid" is a pretty pish poor excuse when they've been quite happy to spend a few hours in the company of someone who may be carrying the disease! 

Unless of course they've said at the start of the round "Please respect social distancing rules today. As such that means I'm afraid I won't spending any time interacting with you, including helping you look for any lost balls". 

Perhaps if people are so worried about tending the odd flag, they could play in masks? Maybe get round the issue by wearing 2 gloves and not taking them off till the end? 

How about clubs taping hand sanitisers to every pin?
		
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That is not good comparison, for Gawds sake. 
You can keep SD when playing golf, including looking for balls etc. In fact, the whole argument ( by the golfing fraternity for golf to be allowed) was on the basis of it being safe because SD was easy outdoors, playing golf, an individual non contact sport.
That is different from touching things which may be carrying the virus.
Your post doesn't seem to see the difference🤔


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

PieMan said:



			😂😂😂 

So if you see someone inadvertently touching a flag or pin in your group are you going to immediately  run off from the course screaming 'unclean unclean' at the top of your voice?
		
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What?  You have a weird way of arguing a case!


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			How do people who can’t touch flags because of Covid deal with door handles? It must be a living nightmare for them.
		
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Yes plus if your pp ask you to remove the flag you are going to refuse.
Make him walk all the way to remove it himself, ?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So has anyone ever refused to touch a flagstick in case they get a commonn cold/flu/norovirus etc etc?
		
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Really- you still don't know the difference between those and Covid??🙄


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



*Where is that conclusion from, that transmission from surfaces is negligible?*
Cold and flu viruses were always considered more transmissible that way before Covid came on the scene.
However, because it was not proveable evidentially* for  Covid doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of transmission.
* To prove beyond doubt that a virus is caught in a particular way means that you have to eliminate all other means. Clearly you can never prove transmission by touch to that standard because people don't live in a vacuum and so it could always be said that another way of transmission was possible.
Thus the " proof "isn't certain.
But you know and I know that if viruses can live for days on metal surfaces and can be picked up by hands if those surfaces are touched, then transmission is thus achieved on quite a lot of those occasions.
Playing lawyer with the argument is being in denial.
		
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There seems to be a move towards thinking that surfaces aren't a huge issue.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			This is comically bizarre. I have still only seen one post where anyone has said that they wouldn't tend a flag in a game of golf, but the conversation has gone polar to the point of zealotry.

A very clever lady said, "We are more alike my friends, than we are unalike."
Worth remembering.
		
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Also worth remembering Women are not always right!


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## BridgfordBlue (Apr 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Where is that conclusion from, that transmission from surfaces is negligible?
Cold and flu viruses were always considered more transmissible that way before Covid came on the scene.
However, because it was not proveable evidentially* for  Covid doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of transmission.
* To prove beyond doubt that a virus is caught in a particular way means that you have to eliminate all other means. Clearly you can never prove transmission by touch to that standard because people don't live in a vacuum and so it could always be said that another way of transmission was possible.
Thus the " proof "isn't certain.
But you know and I know that if viruses can live for days on metal surfaces and can be picked up by hands if those surfaces are touched, then transmission is thus achieved on quite a lot of those occasions.
Playing lawyer with the argument is being in denial.
		
Click to expand...

There’s been a lot of studies into it, worth looking on lancet for it. In the early days of the pandemic, it was thought that surface transmission was a high cause but that changed as more was known, the perception is still different because of the messaging campaign in the early days though. Bear in mind that surface transmission can be negated entirely by an individual and their actions too.

Personally I think if they can open up hospitality outdoors, it makes little to no sense on not allowing people to now remove flags, particularly when it’s entirely in the individuals own control to not actually touch the flag at all or mitigate the risk if they do.


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## RichA (Apr 17, 2021)

BridgfordBlue said:



			Personally I think if they can open up hospitality outdoors, it makes little to no sense on not allowing people to now remove flags, particularly when it’s entirely in the individuals own control to not actually touch the flag at all or mitigate the risk if they do.
		
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I don't think the flag touching issue has had quite the impact on the economy as the shutdown of the UK hospitality industry for most of the last year. Millions of jobs aren't dependent on your being able to request an attended flag.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Really- you still don't know the difference between those and Covid??🙄
		
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Of course i know the difference, stop being silly. The point I'm making is about how negligible the risk is, and people now using that risk to get away from doing one of the traditional courtesies of golf. How many of the people who would do that think nothing of licking their ball to clean it, or don't bother washing their hands before getting a pint and a sausage roll?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course i know the difference, stop being silly. The point I'm making is about how negligible the risk is, and people now using that risk to get away from doing one of the traditional courtesies of golf. How many of the people who would do that think nothing of licking their ball to clean it, or don't bother washing their hands before getting a pint and a sausage roll?
		
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For crying out loud, nobody is saying people will use it to "get away" from doing it

It was more a genuine question of what if somebody has concerns? 

People who don't wash their hands before a pint or sausage roll are for one filthy buggers but also won't be refusing to touch the flag I'm sure.

It's not a case of getting away with anything it's a case of there will be some people out there who won't be comfortable doing it.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's an interesting take. I wonder if post pandamic will people see s refusal to attend the flag based on no chance am I touching that

But at same time will people refuse to remove the flag for someone aswell
		
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pauljames87 said:



			For crying out loud, nobody is saying people will use it to "get away" from doing it

It was more a genuine question of what if somebody has concerns?

People who don't wash their hands before a pint or sausage roll are for one filthy buggers but also won't be refusing to touch the flag I'm sure.

It's not a case of getting away with anything it's a case of there will be some people out there who won't be comfortable doing it.
		
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Sounds to me like thats exactly what you're suggesting might happen


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sounds to me like thats exactly what you're suggesting might happen
		
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Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you. 

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you.

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.
		
Click to expand...

I get what you are saying but this thread isn't about the Dereks it's about the Dans. The ones that say they won't tend the flag because they don't think it's necessary.


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## D-S (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you. 

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.
		
Click to expand...

‘Derek’ in your scenario is going to have quite a few problems getting through life if he is unwilling to touch any communal surfaces. We have always had people who in the past were known as a bit obsessive with hygiene, e.g. they would always use a tissue to open any door handle. This sort of behaviour is going to be more normal in future and more attention to personal hygiene by everyone is only going to be a good thing. However, you can still be very careful and live a normal life - just carry a small bottle of hand sanitiser with you and use it after touching any communal surface - a lot of us are doing this though the pandemic and I for one will continue to do so. However refusing to touch any communal surface will render you unable to get into the changing room, club house, bar, Pro Shop and therefore I suggest Derek might have difficulty accessing the golf course in the first place.


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## BridgfordBlue (Apr 17, 2021)

RichA said:



			I don't think the flag touching issue has had quite the impact on the economy as the shutdown of the UK hospitality industry for most of the last year. Millions of jobs aren't dependent on your being able to request an attended flag.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t want an attended flag, I’m not particularly bothered about that, I want to be able to remove it myself. My point was I don’t really get the logic of not being able to still, given I personally can take actions to completely negate the risk of doing it.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I like the flag out.
But my eyesight isn’t that good from 40’ so I ask you attend the flag for me !
You refuse.
If it was matchplay you would be standing on the green on your own.
Medal play I would hope one of the other players had the manners to help me .

Would be interested to hear from the comittiee guys on this if somebody refuses your request to attend the flag and you have a stalemate .
He won’t tend so I won’t putt.
If I walk away and claim the match what’s the comittiee decision.?
		
Click to expand...

You'd lose, obviously.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You'd lose, obviously.
		
Click to expand...

Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.
		
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You're expecting someone to bow to your wholly unnecessary request regardless of what they think and they're the ones with bad manners?


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## Slab (Apr 17, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I wonder when folk will realise that the horse is dead and has been well and truly flogged ??
		
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Yup

Its ridiculously obvious (to me) that the attending rule is still there in the event its very windy & the pole is bending towards the player putting. Nothing to do with a players preference, necessity, comfort, likes or what they feel or suspect might occur if the ball happens to go anywhere near the hole

In such a case 99.9% will tend the bloomin thing for the player. If its rock steady the player might want to have a think about why they believe they need it tended 

God knows why there’s so much digressing on the thread


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			You're expecting someone to bow to your wholly unnecessary request regardless of what they think and they're the ones with bad manners?
		
Click to expand...

You think it’s unessesary
I can’t see the hole but like the flag out, so it’s nessesary to me.
It’s a choice still in the rules of golf and refusing a request is imo bad manners.
Can’t make it any simpler .
There was a reason it wasn’t taken out of the rules, so we still have a choice.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			There seems to be a move towards thinking that surfaces aren't a huge issue.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk

Click to expand...

I understand what they are saying, but they used somewhat strange logic, to my mind. E.g.
"But If you are trying to do things that cut your overall risk of catching COVID, obsessively wiping down every surface around you isn’t going to be very protective if it’s the only thing you’re doing.  Cleaning surfaces does help if you’re doing other things, too, like wearing a mask, social distancing and washing your hands regularly. It’s another layer of safety.

Blumberg says if you put too much of your focus on disinfecting surfaces, you could miss the real COVID risks. "I find that all these contact concerns distract people from doing things that are proven to prevent transmission, like wearing a mask and social distancing," Blumberg says."

Whilst that is true, the doesn't mean that a lesser risk is no risk or a low risk just because there are other higher risks.
OF course there is high risk from breathing in droplets, but does that mean we should dismiss there being any danger from touching contaminated surfaces.
Either there is a risk from touching a surface or there isn't?
If there is a risk, why take it?
On a walk I do with my wife, there is a gate which has a metal handle to open it. I see many people just come along, one after the other and open the gate via the metal handle with bare hands.
The risk may be low, but there may be Covid virus on that metal.
I use a bit of plastic to open the gate and then bin it.
Why take the risk?
Telling me that the risk is minor compared with breathing in droplets, whilst in itself true, is irrelevant to the risk from the gate. And certainly using the comparison as an argument to support ignoring the risk from the gate is a flawed way of thinking.


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## D-S (Apr 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I understand what they are saying, but they used somewhat strange logic, to my mind. E.g.
"But If you are trying to do things that cut your overall risk of catching COVID, obsessively wiping down every surface around you isn’t going to be very protective if it’s the only thing you’re doing.  Cleaning surfaces does help if you’re doing other things, too, like wearing a mask, social distancing and washing your hands regularly. It’s another layer of safety.

Blumberg says if you put too much of your focus on disinfecting surfaces, you could miss the real COVID risks. "I find that all these contact concerns distract people from doing things that are proven to prevent transmission, like wearing a mask and social distancing," Blumberg says."

Whilst that is true, the doesn't mean that a lesser risk is no risk or a low risk just because there are other higher risks.
OF course there is high risk from reaching in droplets, but does that mean we should dismiss there being any danger from touching contaminated surfaces.
Either there is a risk from touching a surface or there isn't?
If there is a risk, why take it?
On a walk I do with my wife, there is a gate which has a metal handle to open it. I see many people just come along, one after the other and open the gate via the metal handle with bare hands.
The risk may be low, but there may be Covid virus on that metal.
I use a bit of plastic to open the gate and then bin it.
Why take the risk?
Telling me that the risk is minor compared with breathing in droplets, whilst in itself true, is irrelevant to the risk from the gate. And certainly using the comparison as an argument to support ignoring the risk from the gate is a flawed way of thinking.
		
Click to expand...

There is a risk but it is easily mitigated just as you say do when opening a gate. 
Exactly the same at the golf club, sanitise your hands after touching a communal surface such as a door handle, psi screen or pin - simples.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.
		
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You wouldn’t be able to claim the game imo but the other person would be asked to explain why he didn’t allow a player to play within the rules - i would DQ them for a breach of etiquette ( which I have done before )


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course i know the difference, stop being silly. The point I'm making is about how negligible the risk is, and people now using that risk to get away from doing one of the traditional courtesies of golf. How many of the people who would do that think nothing of licking their ball to clean it, or don't bother washing their hands before getting a pint and a sausage roll?
		
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Your comparison, suggesting not much difference( to bolster your argument) is what is silly. Ethan has been telling us for months about the effects of Covid, long term. And all the deaths suggest a vast difference, and I'm the one being silly?🤔
There is a risk to handling the flagstick. Not big compared with sitting Ina crowded cinema etc, to be sure, but the risk is what it is, regardless as to whether it is compared to some other scenario. 
That sort of comparison thinking is flawed, as is evident in you again doing it in your last sentence. How big a risk there is in licking your balls 😳is nothing to do with whether there is a risk with handling the flagstick


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## theoneandonly (Apr 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You wouldn’t be able to claim the game imo but the other person would be asked to explain why he didn’t allow a player to play within the rules - i would DQ them for a breach of etiquette ( which I have done before )
		
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Not a chance, I'm sure I could comfortaby come up with my own reason for not doing it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I get what you are saying but this thread isn't about the Dereks it's about the Dans. The ones that say they won't tend the flag because they don't think it's necessary.
		
Click to expand...

How many Dan's have you ever come across?

I've been very strong and vocal in my opinion of flag tending..however I'd still attend it if asked by any of my playing partners 

Derek wises you might get a few post covid as it's a new thing 

But Dan's? Will you get many?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Not a chance, I'm sure I could comfortaby come up with my own reason for not doing it.
		
Click to expand...

what reason could you come up with that means you are justified in denying someone something that is allowed in the rules - it’s plain good old etiquette to respect someone’s wishes to play the game within the rules.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I like the flag out.
But my eyesight isn’t that good from 40’ so I ask you attend the flag for me !
You refuse.
If it was matchplay you would be standing on the green on your own.
Medal play I would hope one of the other players had the manners to help me .

Would be interested to hear from the comittiee guys on this if somebody refuses your request to attend the flag and you have a stalemate .
He won’t tend so I won’t putt.
If I walk away and claim the match what’s the comittiee decision.?
		
Click to expand...

Personally I would tend the flag if asked, but would probably mention that there is no real need to. If I was in a group that was being particularly slow I'd suggest it best to not tend and just crack on with the game. 

That said. On what basis can you claim the match. There is no penalty for putting with the flag in. So all you are doing is doubling down on the childishness.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Personally I would tend the flag if asked,* but would probably mention that there is no real need to*. If I was in a group that was being particularly slow I'd suggest it best to not tend and just crack on with the game.

That said. On what basis can you claim the match. There is no penalty for putting with the flag in. So all you are doing is doubling down on the childishness.
		
Click to expand...

And what gives you the right to decide what is right for another player? If you're in a particularly slow group I can almost guarantee it won't be flag attending that is causing the slowness


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

I think the one thing this thread has proved is that there are certain people I would happily play golf with week in week out, and some I wouldn't want to play with is they were the only other players on earth.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And what gives you the right to decide what is right for another player? If you're in a particularly slow group I can almost guarantee it won't be flag attending that is causing the slowness
		
Click to expand...

Never said I was deciding what was right for another player. Maybe they might not know they can putt with the flag in now.

But it needs to die out like many other antiquated things in golf.


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## RichA (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And what gives you the right to decide what is right for another player? If you're in a particularly slow group I can almost guarantee it won't be flag attending that is causing the slowness
		
Click to expand...

If I laser every shot and mark and clean my ball before every putt, even the tap-ins, but I'm otherwise keeping up with play, would I be asked to get a move on or should everyone accept that the rules say I'm entitled to do it?


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## banjofred (Apr 17, 2021)

I like arguing....but.....even I have limits.....

This thread has drove me to drink......

Whenever I think I argue too much....I will think back about this thread.....and the numbness of the thinking.....and have another beer.....


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

I wish the R & A would take a look at this thread.  This could end golf. 😂🤣😂


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Never said I was deciding what was right for another player. Maybe they might not know they can putt with the flag in now.

But it needs to die out like many other antiquated things in golf.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, ill put it another way. What gives you the right to tell another player how you think they should be playing the game within the rules?


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## BiMGuy (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Ok, ill put it another way. What gives you the right to tell another player how you think they should be playing the game within the rules?
		
Click to expand...

Se the response you quoted.


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

I played today. Plenty long putts that would have needed tended in the dark ages. Pin in of course.
Guess what, never threatened to hole once.
Move on...🦖


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## banjofred (Apr 17, 2021)

I'd have made more putts today if the flag had only helped me...instead of just sitting there doing NOTHING. It didn't do anything for me today.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			I played today. Plenty long putts that would have needed tended in the dark ages. Pin in of course.
Guess what, never threatened to hole once.
Move on...🦖
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe spend a bit more time on the practice green...


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Or maybe spend a bit more time on the practice green...
		
Click to expand...

What's your handicap ...hacker? 😂


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Or maybe spend a bit more time on the practice green...
		
Click to expand...

Our flags have been removed.. can't see the hole

😂

It is surprising to see how quick people will be to return to attending the flag after over a year of leaving the stick in.. thought people would just be used to it 

Goes to show people just like to return to normal 

But then again people will return instantly to raking bunkers I'm sure 

I'll stil carry my little clip on rake .. been raking throughout and means it's always with me don't have to go looking for it .. or worry where I put it back (another debate)


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			What's your handicap ...hacker? 😂
		
Click to expand...

14.


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

Asked the R&A on Twitter. Let's see if they reply...


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 17, 2021)

I have spent over fifty years attending flags and having them attended for me. I can’t imagine not wanting to attend a flag for someone. If someone refused to attend the flag for me (“in or out mate, your choice!”), I would make the choice he suggested and get on with it. I try not to let (what appears to me to be) the idiocy or discourtesy of others affect my game. This is such a minor issue that discussing it on this forum might seem unnecessarily silly to some. It is still worthy of some discussion, if you are interested in others' views. If not, seems little point in being here? I will happily let anyone know my current Handicap Index, if they so desire.


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			14.
		
Click to expand...

I'm 5.  Wish I could hole more putts.  Always been my downfall, even when I could have it tended.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			I'm 5.  Wish I could hole more putts.  Always been my downfall, even when I could have it tended.
		
Click to expand...

If you spent more time attending you would be off stratch clearly 🤣


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...olfers-putt-with-flag-in-is-it-advantage/amp/

Interesting that Dave Pelz, ex-NASA scientist and short game guru says leaving the pin in is advantageous.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You wouldn’t be able to claim the game imo but the other person would be asked to explain why he didn’t allow a player to play within the rules - i would DQ them for a breach of etiquette ( which I have done before )
		
Click to expand...

I really can’t understand the attitude.
Might happen couple of times a year.
But to just say no is really poor.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...olfers-putt-with-flag-in-is-it-advantage/amp/

Interesting that Dave Pelz, ex-NASA scientist and short game guru says leaving the pin in is advantageous.
		
Click to expand...

Byrson the scientist putts with it in for the most 

The more traditional golfers remove it on tour, but mostly down to feel isn't it ? Just like most things it's in their heads 

Rory gets his caddy to do it as otherwise he will have nothing else to do lol


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## louise_a (Apr 17, 2021)

I will be glad when we can take flags out again, I find it off putting on short putts, also twice this last week a reasonably paced putt has hit the flag and stayed out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...olfers-putt-with-flag-in-is-it-advantage/amp/

Interesting that Dave Pelz, ex-NASA scientist and short game guru says leaving the pin in is advantageous.
		
Click to expand...


Interesting that this scientist says for 99.9% of putts the flag should be removed 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

which science is one to believe eh 🤷‍♂️


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...olfers-putt-with-flag-in-is-it-advantage/amp/

Interesting that Dave Pelz, ex-NASA scientist and short game guru says leaving the pin in is advantageous.
		
Click to expand...

Scientist, smientist. Pah. I don’t even notice a flag, it doesn’t exist or pose any mental or physical barrier. 
They need a psychologist not a rocket scientist!


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Not a chance, I'm sure I could comfortaby come up with my own reason for not doing it.
		
Click to expand...

You said “unessesary”


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But yet you choose to ignore the posts were you call people dinosaurs and tell them to get in to the 21st Century.

Another one who gives it out and can’t take it. But as the saying goes, “if the Cap fits..”
		
Click to expand...

A dinosaur is not offensive, sorry.
I've had lots of equality and diversity training.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Byrson the scientist putts with it in for the most
l
		
Click to expand...

Post 131, you said yourself he takes it out for short ones. So which is it?


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

louise_a said:



			I will be glad when we can take flags out again, I find it off putting on short putts, also twice this last week a reasonably paced putt has hit the flag and stayed out.
		
Click to expand...

But, will you ask for it to be attended?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Personally I would tend the flag if asked, but would probably mention that there is no real need to. If I was in a group that was being particularly slow I'd suggest it best to not tend and just crack on with the game.

That said. On what basis can you claim the match. There is no penalty for putting with the flag in. So all you are doing is doubling down on the childishness.
		
Click to expand...

Well being called bad mannered for wanting something that is in the rules dosnt help.
I have the flag out for every putt if I can’t see the hole I have it attended.

I was asking a question Phil has answered end off I can’t.
Would prob lose more time arguing the rules on the green if a refusal .


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Good for you.


Post 131, you said yourself he takes it out for short ones. So which is it?

Click to expand...

Really? Do you just enjoy posting stuff where your going to get back the obvious answer that makes you look a tiny bit silly?

FOR THE MOST 

That does not mean all putts does it 

Do I need to buy you a dictionary?


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			You said “unessesary”
		
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A new word for today - lovely.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Really? Do you just enjoy posting stuff where your going to get back the obvious answer that makes you look a tiny bit silly?

FOR THE MOST

That does not mean all putts does it

Do I need to buy you a dictionary?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not the one constantly contradicting myself.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm not the one constantly contradicting myself.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not tho? If you actually engage your reading skills you will find it's consistent ...

For the most doesn't equal all.


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## banjofred (Apr 17, 2021)

As time goes by....one of the best tv series in my opinion.....

totally irrelevant to this thread...

I am just hoping to knock this thing on the head.....can't we argue about something serious like the price of beer in the club? 

Played in our medal at the new club today. Walking off the 2nd green......one of my playing partners hit in the back of the head with a ball from the following group. The ball....you gotta be kidding me...ends up within a foot of the hole. Ambulance called....2 of us finished the round. The guy is ok.....lots of blood though.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

@SaintHacker I'm going to lay you a challenge

I'm about to drive to work so you have roughly 1 hour 

Find one post on here , quote it unedited , where I said I wouldn't attend the flag and would refuse .

As you keep claiming I correct myself 

I'm confident I didn't post that I personally would refuse (others might)

If you find it lets say by 18:30

£10 to charity of your choice


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm not tho? If you actually engage your reading skills you will find it's consistent ...

For the most doesn't equal all.
		
Click to expand...

OK. BdC averages 29 putts per round. Therefore its safe to assume that on average he two putts 11 greens. As he's quite good at it, being a pro and all, its fair also to assume that the first putt will be a long one (flag in), the second will be short (flag out). So statistically he's putting with it out almost as much as he is with it in.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...olfers-putt-with-flag-in-is-it-advantage/amp/

Interesting that Dave Pelz, ex-NASA scientist and short game guru says leaving the pin in is advantageous.
		
Click to expand...

Not many pros do though.
That must tell us something.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			OK. BdC averages 29 putts per round. Therefore its safe to assume that on average he two putts 11 greens. As he's quite good at it, being a pro and all, its fair also to assume that the first putt will be a long one (flag in), the second will be short (flag out). So statistically he's putting with it out almost as much as he is with it in.
		
Click to expand...

Have you included tap ins where he leaves flag?

It's much of a much.... Stand by my statement of leaving in for most


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not many pros do though.
That must tell us something.
		
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Many pros do things just because it suits their eye 

Just like you have one pro playing single length irons .. others have grown up playing normal irons and won't change because they won't get advtange.. but in the future now single length is a thing you might see more pros play them on tour


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2021)

About a million posts ago, LPP gave a perfectly acceptable reason why someone, post covid when we're allowed to touch the flag, would want the flag attending....
They prefer thenflag out, as is their right and choice, but can't see the hole because of the slopes on the green.
So someone takes the flag out after he's hit the putt.
Where is the problem with this?
Simple - there ain't one.
The number of times, in my experience, that the flag needed attending was small before we were allowed to keep the flag in.
Post Covid it will be even more infrequent 
But as long as its in the rules of the game then it can happen.
Will the R&A delete it from the rules?
I doubt it because it inconveniences nobody and has little or no effect on the pace of play.
There are many more illogical rules that need deleting before this one.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Never said I was deciding what was right for another player. Maybe they might not know they can putt with the flag in now.

But it needs to die out like many other antiquated things in golf.
		
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Well if that’s aimed at me
I have been cat1 for over 35yrs 6 now and know I can putt with the flag in but I don’t want to I like it out for all putts and attended for long ones where I can’t see the hole.
This is allowed under the rules of golf..


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			A new word for today - lovely.
		
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You obviously failed the diversity course then?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 17, 2021)

I’m amazed these people who believe having the flag attended is wrong, feel it is ok to belittle the intelligence and try to make fun of other posters purely because those posters don’t have an issue with the rule.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

banjofred said:



			As time goes by....one of the best tv series in my opinion.....

totally irrelevant to this thread...

I am just hoping to knock this thing on the head.....can't we argue about something serious like the price of beer in the club?

Played in our medal at the new club today. Walking off the 2nd green......one of my playing partners hit in the back of the head with a ball from the following group. The ball....you gotta be kidding me...ends up within a foot of the hole. Ambulance called....2 of us finished the round. The guy is ok.....lots of blood though.
		
Click to expand...

Not nice.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



@SaintHacker I'm going to lay you a challenge

I'm about to drive to work so you have roughly 1 hour

Find one post on here , quote it unedited , where I said I wouldn't attend the flag and would refuse .

As you keep claiming I correct myself

I'm confident I didn't post that I personally would refuse (others might)

If you find it lets say by 18:30

£10 to charity of your choice
		
Click to expand...

Why? As far a I'm aware you haven't said that, and I certainly haven't accused you of saying that. In fact if you can find the post, unedited, I'll double your tenner.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Many pros do things just because it suits their eye

Just like you have one pro playing single length irons .. others have grown up playing normal irons and won't change because they won't get advtange.. but in the future now single length is a thing you might see more pros play them on tour
		
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Yes it’s probably the only thing I have in common with most pros.
It suits my eye to have the flag out at all times.
So if I can’t see the hole it’s attended. Imo it’s the only reason this choice has been left in the rules.

Flag in no prob
Flag out no prob 
Flag out but can’t see the hole just attended can’t see the prob.


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			You obviously failed the diversity course then?
		
Click to expand...

I've had the training, didn't sit a test. Just as well.


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## banjofred (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not nice.
		
Click to expand...

I will assume you mean the head shot....he came back to the parking lot by the end of the round....so not serious.......and not a hatred of "As Time Goes By"...That might cause me to get upset

It just goes to show you.....be careful.....no reason to push things. It could have been a lot worse than it was with the head shot....


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 17, 2021)

I’m relatively new to this forum, but I have a question and this might be an appropriate time to ask you more experienced lads and lasses. At what point should I step aside to the private conversation option if my discussion is becoming simply one-to-one with another poster and is possibly uninteresting to others? I have done this once so far, not out of a difference of opinion, quite the opposite – going into far too much detail about one aspect of a broader theme. Can we still retain the option of a copy-and-paste back to the thread, if we think it might be of interest to others? So that's two questions.


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## Backsticks (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not many pros do though.
That must tell us something.
		
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That old habits die hard. New generations will come through growing up with, and gaining the advantage of leaving it in.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 17, 2021)

louise_a said:



			I will be glad when we can take flags out again, I find it off putting on short putts, also twice this last week a reasonably paced putt has hit the flag and stayed out.
		
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Straight pin flag or with them awful lifty up things?


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## KenL (Apr 17, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I’m relatively new to this forum, but I have a question and this might be an appropriate time to ask you more experienced lads and lasses. At what point should I step aside to the private conversation option if my discussion is becoming simply one-to-one with another poster and is possibly uninteresting to others? I have done this once so far, not out of a difference of opinion, quite the opposite – going into far too much detail about one aspect of a broader theme. Can we still retain the option of a copy-and-paste back to the thread, if we think it might be of interest to others? So that's two questions.
		
Click to expand...

Keep it public so we can all join in. It's a public forum after all.


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## Orikoru (Apr 17, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I’m relatively new to this forum, but I have a question and this might be an appropriate time to ask you more experienced lads and lasses. At what point should I step aside to the private conversation option if my discussion is becoming simply one-to-one with another poster and is possibly uninteresting to others? I have done this once so far, not out of a difference of opinion, quite the opposite – going into far too much detail about one aspect of a broader theme. Can we still retain the option of a copy-and-paste back to the thread, if we think it might be of interest to others? So that's two questions.
		
Click to expand...

If it's a disagreement you should keep it on the public forum at all times so we can get the popcorn out and enjoy it. If you're agreeing and having a love-in about something then go private, nobody wants to see two people getting along.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 17, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			If it's a disagreement you should keep it on the public forum at all times so we can get the popcorn out and enjoy it. If you're agreeing and having a love-in about something then go private, nobody wants to see two people getting along. 

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. By "nobody" I hope you are correct with regard to everyone on this forum, whereas in the outside world...???


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I will assume you mean the head shot....he came back to the parking lot by the end of the round....so not serious.......and not a hatred of "As Time Goes By"...That might cause me to get upset

It just goes to show you.....be careful.....no reason to push things. It could have been a lot worse than it was with the head shot....
		
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Last year I had a Full blooded drive in the side of the head no shout.
Blue light job full head scan out for the duration.
Can’t remember a thing after I hit the floor.
So I can empathise.
It’s not nice.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 17, 2021)

Backsticks said:



			That old habits die hard. New generations will come through growing up with, and gaining the advantage of leaving it in.
		
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Or perhaps not .
Lots of science to say it’s not an advantage.
Not many of the new pros keep it in.
But it’s the players choice , that should always remain imo.


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## banjofred (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Last year I had a Full blooded drive in the side of the head no shout.
Blue light job full head scan out for the duration.
Can’t remember a thing after I hit the floor.
So I can empathise.
It’s not nice.
		
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I think the guy got by as well as possible.....just a wicked shot to the back of the head. The young guy who got him I think went home.....don't blame him, I'd feel pretty crappy. I'm new to this club, but people stopped us a number of times going around the course to ask what happened. Lots of blood, but I "think" he will likely just have a headache and a few stitches. One of the guys called the pro who came out to get him in a golf cart.....he was 90% ok at that time. 

At my old course last week I had back to back tee shots rattle around in the trees over my head from the last hole.....no shout.....nothing. I just assume if you don't know.....start yelling. I covered up a couple of times today from hearing shouts from nearby holes.....If someone gives me time to get my hands over my head, then I'll just get hit in the arms instead of the head......which I would prefer. 

My opinion.....people just aren't yelling as much as they used to.


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## rulefan (Apr 17, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Lots of science to say it’s not an advantage. 

Click to expand...

Lots of science and stats to say it is.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I think the guy got by as well as possible.....just a wicked shot to the back of the head. The young guy who got him I think went home.....don't blame him, I'd feel pretty crappy. I'm new to this club, but people stopped us a number of times going around the course to ask what happened. Lots of blood, but I "think" he will likely just have a headache and a few stitches. One of the guys called the pro who came out to get him in a golf cart.....he was 90% ok at that time.

At my old course last week I had back to back tee shots rattle around in the trees over my head from the last hole.....no shout.....nothing. I just assume if you don't know.....start yelling. I covered up a couple of times today from hearing shouts from nearby holes.....If someone gives me time to get my hands over my head, then I'll just get hit in the arms instead of the head......which I would prefer.

My opinion.....people just aren't yelling as much as they used to.
		
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Sounds horrible and i hope the guy that got hit is ok. Did the lad who hit the shot, or anyone from his group, shout?


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sounds horrible and i hope the guy that got hit is ok. Did the lad who hit the shot, or anyone from his group, shout?
		
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Yes they shouted "Attend the pin for us before you leave the green"


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## SaintHacker (Apr 17, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Yes they shouted "Attend the pin for us before you leave the green"
		
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Wow. Really?


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## PNWokingham (Apr 17, 2021)

just tried to read these 446 posts - are we of the sane opinion that someone is perfectly entitled to ask to have the flag attended as per the rules and etiquette of the game or are the cancel-culture brigade going to ban try and ban this as well?


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 17, 2021)

I would like to be allowed to attend the flag and have the flag attended for me. Once we are "post Covid restrictions" I can not see reason to not have this option.


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 17, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just tried to read these 446 posts - are we of the *sane *opinion that someone is perfectly entitled to ask to have the flag attended as per the rules and etiquette of the game or are the cancel-culture brigade going to ban try and ban this as well?
		
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Freudian slip but oh so apt for this thread.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 17, 2021)

Hey I’ve got an idea.....Why don’t we just wait and see .....

People getting all het up over hypotheticals
Does my head in , so it does


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## RichA (Apr 17, 2021)

Not hypothetical - approx 50 rounds of golf since starting again last summer after a 10 year hiatus. This topic has not come up in conversation a single time with actual live golfers. It's a theoretical argument about a non-subject.
Funny that the dude who lit the fuse hasn't posted in the conversation since the original post.


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## banjofred (Apr 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sounds horrible and i hope the guy that got hit is ok. Did the lad who hit the shot, or anyone from his group, shout?
		
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Different opinions on that one. I sure didn't hear anything, but the guy I kept playing with said the fellow that got hit heard something. .....hmmm. I'm pretty good about covering up if I hear a loud shout....granted.....there are some people who don't shout very well. I quite often add a "fore" to people I play with because I didn't think they put much ooomph in it. Somebody 150yds away isn't going to hear anything if you just "kind of" shout. Granted...I'm an ex-PE teacher/Coach...raising my voice was part of the job.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Lots of science and stats to say it is. 

Click to expand...

Ahh science and stats !
That’s why scientists do experiments because they are trying to find the answer.
But different ones find different answers.
Golf isn’t a science as we all find out when we tee it up.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 18, 2021)

RichA said:



			Not hypothetical - approx 50 rounds of golf since starting again last summer after a 10 year hiatus. This topic has not come up in conversation a single time with actual live golfers. It's a theoretical argument about a non-subject.
Funny that the dude who lit the fuse hasn't posted in the conversation since the original post.
		
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Since the rule change I have not asked anyone to tend the flag for me, nor has anyone asked me either. Thats countless rounds with loads of different golfers.
I'd hedge anyone who does ask is just being awkward.


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## Crow (Apr 18, 2021)

454 posts.

Has anybody changed their opinion?


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 18, 2021)

Crow said:



			454 posts.

Has anybody changed their opinion?  

Click to expand...

As one of the original posters on this topic, I have changed my mind, when I first posted I would begrudgingly attend the pin if asked, but now I'd gladly attend the flag and reply "no problem" when asked to. Once flag touching is allowed of course


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## KenL (Apr 18, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			As one of the original posters on this topic, I have changed my mind, when I first posted I would begrudgingly attend the pin if asked, but now I'd gladly attend the flag and reply "no problem" when asked to. Once flag touching is allowed of course
		
Click to expand...

I am still of the opinion that there is not need for the pin to be tended and I won't be asking anyone.

If asked I would do it. If it was a pal, friendly banter would be forthcoming. If it was someone I had been drawn with, I might avoid them in future.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Apr 18, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Yes they shouted "Attend the pin for us before you leave the green"
		
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Brilliant!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Since the rule change I have not asked anyone to tend the flag for me, nor has anyone asked me either. Thats countless rounds with loads of different golfers.
I'd hedge anyone who does ask is just being awkward.
		
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As I said earlier - a perfect example is on two tier greens when someone is putting from distance on the bottom tier and can’t see the bottom of the whole when the flag is out 



KenL said:



			I am still of the opinion that there is not need for the pin to be tended and I won't be asking anyone.

If asked I would do it. If it was a pal, friendly banter would be forthcoming. If it was someone I had been drawn with, I might avoid them in future.
		
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Would you really judge someone because they would like the flag tended ? Blimey we all have our own little quirks whilst playing


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2021)

Attending the flag is as much part of the game as helping to look for a ball for someone. I cant understand people's reasoning for either refusing or not playing with someone again, who's asked for it to be done


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## davidy233 (Apr 18, 2021)

Is there a 'Historically correct standing position' while tending the flag - asking for a friend.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



*Attending the flag is as much part of the game as helping to look for a ball for someone*. I cant understand people's reasoning for either refusing or not playing with someone again, who's asked for it to be done
		
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It certaintly used to be.  These days you're just wasting time.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 18, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			It certaintly used to be.  These days you're just wasting time.
		
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Certainly wastes time if there is a stand off....


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 18, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			As one of the original posters on this topic, I have changed my mind, when I first posted I would begrudgingly attend the pin if asked, but now I'd gladly attend the flag and reply "no problem" when asked to. Once flag touching is allowed of course
		
Click to expand...

I was taking to one of my playing partners this morning about flag attending, and he gave me a very convincing argument to sometimes having a pin attended, he said when he's got a long putt having someone attending the pin gives him better perspective of distance having the person to focus on, He said because to person is bigger than just a flagstick he gets a better feeling for direction and pace, He said this without even having to think about it, he plays off 5, but putts and has a short game much better than that.


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## Beedee (Apr 18, 2021)

Crow said:



			454 posts.

Has anybody changed their opinion?  

Click to expand...

You could ask that question on any thread on this forum that reaches 400-odd posts and get the same answer.  I don't think I've ever seen words to the effect of "that's a good point, you're right, I've changed my mind" on here.


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## KenL (Apr 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would you really judge someone because they would like the flag tended ? Blimey we all have our own little quirks whilst playing
		
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It depends.  I used to play with a guy sometimes who wanted it tended on every green, sometimes twice. Seriously, he wanted it tended from 10 feet.  It was absolutely clear he wanted to control people he played with.

Once in a round, I can live with but constantly for no reason, I cannot.

I am pretty sure I have been asked once since the rules changed.


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## KenL (Apr 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Attending the flag is as much part of the game as helping to look for a ball for someone. I cant understand people's reasoning for either refusing or not playing with someone again, who's asked for it to be done
		
Click to expand...

Not at my club, a thing of the past.


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## chrisd (Apr 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			Not at my club, a thing of the past.
		
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I'm not saying it is something that happens all the time but when a player wants it done then it should be done.


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## KenL (Apr 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm not saying it is something that happens all the time but when a player wants it done then it should be done.
		
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I suppose so!


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			I suppose so!
		
Click to expand...

Someone changed their mind on the forum

Flags, Music, Bunting and other wild examples of joy and amazement 👍😂


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## KenL (Apr 18, 2021)

No 



PhilTheFragger said:



			Someone changed their mind on the forum

Flags, Music, Bunting and other wild examples of joy and amazement 👍😂
		
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No I have not. 😀 I never said anywhere that I would refuse to do it.  Want a £10 charity bet?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Is there a 'Historically correct standing position' while tending the flag - asking for a friend.
		
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Yes as it happens.  To the side and at arms length as you don't want to be standing within say 18" of the hole.  Which side depends.  You wouldn't want to cast your shadow over the hole...however...that could be superseded by a wish for you to not stand the 'up-slope' side of the hole if there is a borrow on the putt.  The shadow/up-slope decision is up to the player putting.  If it wasn't obvious to me when attending I'd simply ask the player which side he wants me to stand.

BTW - it's HNSP as in Historical Natural Standing Position (If I recall correctly and really I should...)


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes as it happens.  To the side and at arms length as you don't want to be standing within say 18" of the hole.  Which side depends.  You wouldn't want to cast your shadow over the hole...however...that could be superseded by a wish for you to not stand the 'up-slope' side of the hole if there is a borrow on the putt.  The shadow/up-slope decision is up to the player putting.  If it wasn't obvious to me when attending I'd simply ask the player which side he wants me to stand.

BTW - it's HNSP as in Historically Natural Standing Position (If I recall correctly and really I should...)
		
Click to expand...

Seve use to have his caddie standing directly behind the hole holding the flagstick at an angle towards the caddie


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes as it happens.  To the side and at arms length as you don't want to be standing within say 18" of the hole.  Which side depends.  You wouldn't want to cast your shadow over the hole...however...that could be superseded by a wish for you to not stand the 'up-slope' side of the hole if there is a borrow on the putt.  The shadow/up-slope decision is up to the player putting.  If it wasn't obvious to me when attending I'd simply ask the player which side he wants me to stand.

BTW - it's HNSP as in Historically Natural Standing Position (If I recall correctly and really I should...)
		
Click to expand...

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo................


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 18, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			It certaintly used to be.  These days you're just wasting time.
		
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Not necessarily correct. Player might take longer over the putt if no one agrees to attend the flag for him.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 18, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Not necessarily correct. Player might take longer over the putt if no one agrees to attend the flag for him.
		
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To be fair, most of this thread is just standard forum dogmatism. In the real world its just not happening.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2021)

Quite windy on the high parts of the course yesterday. Couple of times guys had long putts where somebody had to pull the flag back because it was blowing towards the front of the hole. Normally in non covid situations the flag would have been tended.


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## davidy233 (Apr 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo................
		
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Leave him alone - first reasonable post in ages in this topic


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Leave him alone - first reasonable post in ages in this topic 

Click to expand...

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my previous statement


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## AliMc (Apr 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			It depends.  I used to play with a guy sometimes who wanted it tended on every green, sometimes twice. Seriously, he wanted it tended from 10 feet.  It was absolutely clear he wanted to control people he played with.

Once in a round, I can live with but constantly for no reason, I cannot.

I am pretty sure I have been asked once since the rules changed.
		
Click to expand...

Have to say the same Ken, I would attend it if I was asked but I don't think I have been once at Dunbar since the change


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## sunshine (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			The expression "what goes around comes around" springs to mind. If someone refused to tend a flag when asked then at some point in the future a PP will refuse to help them look for a ball or something similar. I play golf to enjoy myself and make new friends, I like to think others do so for the same reasons, not to antagonise people.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, but I thought you said you would do anything to gain an advantage?  That's got to include antagonising people as a bit of gamesmanship


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I agree, but I thought you said you would do anything to gain an advantage?  That's got to include antagonising people as a bit of gamesmanship 

Click to expand...

No, you might think antagonising people is part of the game but I don't. There are plenty of ways to gain an advantage using the rules and the spirit of the game.


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## JamesR (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No, you might think antagonising people is part of the game but I don't. There are plenty of ways to gain an advantage using the rules and the spirit of the game.
		
Click to expand...

“Spirit of the game “
How very last century!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Leave him alone - first reasonable post in ages in this topic 

Click to expand...

Oi ... I don't believe that I have made _any _unreasonable posts on this topic - in fact my thoughts on the matter are identical to those of many on here.  I thank you...


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## sunshine (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No, you might think antagonising people is part of the game but I don't. There are plenty of ways to gain an advantage using the rules and the spirit of the game.
		
Click to expand...

 i was just joking, but after 480 posts there is probably no room for humour on this thread. I'll keep trying, we need to get to the magic 500 posts.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

JamesR said:



			“Spirit of the game “
How very last century!!
		
Click to expand...

We still play in tweed jackets at my club 😊


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## sunshine (Apr 19, 2021)

Maybe people who want the flag tended in future should hire a caddie? The caddie can also rake bunkers etc.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Maybe people who want the flag tended in future should hire a caddie? The caddie can also rake bunkers etc.
		
Click to expand...

Waste of money, got playing partners to do that for free 😉


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## sunshine (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Waste of money, got playing partners to do that for free 😉
		
Click to expand...

But what if I asked you to tend the flag, and then you contracted COVID and sued me for potential lost earnings and emotional distress? Could be expensive.

Unlikely to happen in the UK, but in the US there will be plenty of ambulance chasing lawyers looking to litigate.


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## banjofred (Apr 19, 2021)

sunshine said:



			But what if I asked you to tend the flag, and then you contracted COVID and sued me for potential lost earnings and emotional distress? Could be expensive.

Unlikely to happen in the UK, but in the US there will be plenty of ambulance chasing lawyers looking to litigate.
		
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Don't look now.....the UK is getting there fairly quickly.....The ol' "We are better than the US" outlook. How many of these have I gone through over the years?.....and then it happens here.....


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

sunshine said:



			But what if I asked you to tend the flag, and then you contracted COVID and sued me for potential lost earnings and emotional distress? Could be expensive.

Unlikely to happen in the UK, but in the US there will be plenty of ambulance chasing lawyers looking to litigate.
		
Click to expand...

Not really sure what you mean by that as nobody should be touching flags until we get the all clear. And those diehard 'non tenders' will still have the same attitude when it is safe to touch flagsticks again.


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## richart (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			No, you might think antagonising people is part of the game but I don't. There are plenty of ways to gain an advantage using the rules and the spirit of the game.
		
Click to expand...

Like having your partner wear very tight leggings.


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## davidy233 (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oi ... I don't believe that I have made _any _unreasonable posts on this topic - in fact my thoughts on the matter are identical to those of many on here.  I thank you...
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying it was your first reasonable post in this topic - I was commenting on the tone of the whole topic - it's reminiscent of that other infamous thread.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 19, 2021)

richart said:



			Like having your partner wear very tight leggings.
		
Click to expand...

You're a married man, you shouldn't be looking 😂


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			You're a married man, you shouldn't be looking 😂
		
Click to expand...

He can look at the menu but he's got to eat at home.


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## chrisd (Apr 19, 2021)

drive4show said:



			You're a married man, you shouldn't be looking 😂
		
Click to expand...

I certainly looked and luckily only risked one eye


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## KenL (Apr 20, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I wasn't saying it was your first reasonable post in this topic - I was commenting on the tone of the whole topic - it's reminiscent of that other infamous thread.
		
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Which one was that please, got to be worth a read.


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## Bdill93 (Apr 20, 2021)

25 pages of flag in or out.... 

Ive still not been a "golfer" when flags are allowed to be taken out really. When we can eventually do it again, Ill probably go flag out for anything less than 2 foot but maybe only the ones that might break a bit more. 

A non factor for me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I wasn't saying it was your first reasonable post in this topic - I was commenting on the tone of the whole topic - it's reminiscent of that other infamous thread.
		
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There is nothing unreasonable about the HNSP.  In fact the stances take on it (see what I did there 😘) are similar in many ways to those being taken on a request for the flag to be attended.  One player asks another to do something for him; the other doesn’t see the point and refuses, resists or grumbles.


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## Robster59 (Apr 20, 2021)

This is all incredibly silly.  If you don't want the flag out then fine.  If an opponent wants the flag to be tended, then have the good grace to do so without moaning.  If your opponent wants the flag removed and not tended, then again take it out and don't moan.  You'll probably spend more time arguing the point than the flag being taken out and put back in again.
I really don't see the problem.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 20, 2021)

Just imagine. If we can resolve this issue here, we could easily create world peace and be a shoe in for a Nobel prize.


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## Imurg (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Just imagine. If we can resolve this issue here, we could easily create world peace and be a shoe in for a Nobel prize.
		
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And then we'd lose it at there would be fights about who's having it this weekend and who has it over Xmas....


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Just imagine. If we can resolve this issue here, we could easily create world peace and be a shoe in for a Nobel prize.
		
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We would argue whose turn it is to have it in their house.
Do you get a trophy?


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 20, 2021)

First comp of the season today and another one that didn't go in because of the flag. And for the too firm brigade this one was toppling in at 9 o'clock, in the side door, so no pace and still bounced off. Flags out!!

My mate and PP had a pearler which made me laugh (inwardly). A one foot tap in that hit the flag, bounced back straight back at him and stopped a millimetre from the edge, teetering but refusing to fall. He was livid.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 20, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			First comp of the season today and another one that didn't go in because of the flag. And for the too firm brigade this one was toppling in at 9 o'clock, in the side door, so no pace and still bounced off. Flags out!!

My mate and PP had a pearler which made me laugh (inwardly). A one foot tap in that hit the flag, bounced back straight back at him and stopped a millimetre from the edge, teetering but refusing to fall. He was livid.
		
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Off the pin flag or off the lifty up things.....?


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## KenL (Apr 21, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			First comp of the season today and another one that didn't go in because of the flag. And for the too firm brigade this one was toppling in at 9 o'clock, in the side door, so no pace and still bounced off. Flags out!!

My mate and PP had a pearler which made me laugh (inwardly). A one foot tap in that hit the flag, bounced back straight back at him and stopped a millimetre from the edge, teetering but refusing to fall. He was livid.
		
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Club needs to do more to source thinner pins or make sure the pins are upright.


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 21, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Off the pin flag or off the lifty up things.....?
		
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Very thick lifty up thing.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 21, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			Very thick lifty up thing.
		
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So it isn’t the flag you have an issue with then!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2021)

KenL said:



			Club needs to do more to source thinner pins or make sure the pins are upright.
		
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Golfnut1957 said:



			Very thick lifty up thing.
		
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We don't have a lift up device, we had foam in the base last year, cut down plastic piping this year. We don't get bounce outs unless you hit it so hard it wouldn't have dropped anyway. I've played at courses with the lift up. They are a pain and a problem. Ditch them and a good number of the grumbles would disappear.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We don't have a lift up device, we had foam in the base last year, cut down plastic piping this year. We don't get bounce outs unless you hit it so hard it wouldn't have dropped anyway. I've played at courses with the lift up. They are a pain and a problem. Ditch them and a good number of the grumbles would disappear.
		
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This......


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We don't have a lift up device, we had foam in the base last year, cut down plastic piping this year. We don't get bounce outs unless you hit it so hard it wouldn't have dropped anyway. I've played at courses with the lift up. They are a pain and a problem. Ditch them and a good number of the grumbles would disappear.
		
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So would tending the flag 😉


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2021)

drive4show said:



			So would tending the flag 😉
		
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Ah, but we are still in an era of covid so not yet applicable . 

The lift up device is an over engineered solution to a simple problem. Cut down a bit of plastic piping into 18 pieces, about 5cm or so long. It really is a cheap and simple, temporary , solution.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ah, but we are still in an era of covid so not yet applicable .

The lift up device is an over engineered solution to a simple problem. Cut down a bit of plastic piping into 18 pieces, about 5cm or so long. It really is a cheap and simple, temporary , solution.
		
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This is a thing these days though.
Simple solutions to simple problems are dismissed for very complicated ones.
We had one of our plastic discs on the flag break so we just put sand out of a bunker in the hole to stop the ball dropping to far.


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## Beedee (Apr 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ah, but we are still in an era of covid so not yet applicable .

The lift up device is an over engineered solution to a simple problem. Cut down a bit of plastic piping into 18 pieces, about 5cm or so long. It really is a cheap and simple, temporary , solution.
		
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I remember reading Ross Brawn's autobiography about his time leading Ferrari.  This was at the time when they were wiping the floor with the competition.  He said his goal was to "make solutions are simple as the problem required them to be, not as complex as the budget allows".  The flag pole lifters fail this test badly.


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## Golfnut1957 (Apr 21, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is a thing these days though.
Simple solutions to simple problems are dismissed for very complicated ones.
We had one of our plastic discs on the flag break so we just put sand out of a bunker in the hole to stop the ball dropping to far.
		
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My mate came up with the solution of topping the hole up with sand  last year. It is so simple and so obvious but having gone to the expense of purchasing lifters they will feel obliged to use them.


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## LincolnShep (Apr 21, 2021)

This thread is like a car crash; it's tragic but you can't stop yourself looking at it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 21, 2021)

LincolnShep said:



			This thread is like a car crash; it's tragic but you can't stop yourself looking at it.
		
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It's not the only thread like that 😂


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## sunshine (Apr 21, 2021)

LincolnShep said:



			This thread is like a car crash; it's tragic but you can't stop yourself looking at it.
		
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Over 500 posts, it's a major pile up! Let's see if we can get to 1000 posts.


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## louise_a (Apr 25, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Straight pin flag or with them awful lifty up things?
		
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Straight flad with an insert in the hole


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 26, 2021)

I thought about this thread for a moment yesterday on the course. I had hit it fairly close on a par three and two playing partners chipped on inside mine. As I walked to the hole, it would have felt so normal to take the flag out for everyone without hesitation. I doubt very much that either playing partner would have replaced the flag for their 4-footers. I am very much looking forward to removing flags by choice.


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## D-S (Apr 26, 2021)

We have the thin pins, yesterday I played in an open competition at a local club that had relatively thick pins and high raised Astro turf fillers in the hole. Putts didn’t drop they just wedged between the flag and the lip. It was very windy too. We had two or three bounce outs, a real pain. They need to make thin pins mandatory or at least some sort of restriction on diameter of pins.


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## Wabinez (Apr 26, 2021)

D-S said:



			We have the thin pins, yesterday I played in an open competition at a local club that had relatively thick pins and high raised Astro turf fillers in the hole. Putts didn’t drop they just wedged between the flag and the lip. It was very windy too. We had two or three bounce outs, a real pain. They need to make thin pins mandatory or at least some sort of restriction on diameter of pins.
		
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they do....

*The Flagstick*
 Requirements:

The Pole
Must be circular in cross-section.
Must have a diameter of no greater than 2 inches (50.8 mm) from the top of the pole to a point no less than 3 inches (76.2 mm) above the putting green surface.
Must have a constant diameter of no greater than 0.75 inches (19 mm) from a point 3 inches (76.2 mm) above to 3 inches (76.2 mm) below the putting green surface.
Must not incorporate features, including its material composition, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball.


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## D-S (Apr 26, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			they do....

*The Flagstick*
 Requirements:

The Pole
Must be circular in cross-section.
Must have a diameter of no greater than 2 inches (50.8 mm) from the top of the pole to a point no less than 3 inches (76.2 mm) above the putting green surface.
Must have a constant diameter of no greater than 0.75 inches (19 mm) from a point 3 inches (76.2 mm) above to 3 inches (76.2 mm) below the putting green surface.
Must not incorporate features, including its material composition, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball.



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It would be interesting to have the ‘lifter’ devices measured to see if they conform, if they do then they need to reduce the diameter limit.


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## IanM (Apr 26, 2021)

I'd wondered that.   We have these lifting devices and  new etiquette has evolved.  

When you hole out  you rotate the device so the vertical bar is on the far side of the pin for the next player!  

Funny times....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			I'd wondered that.   We have these lifting devices and  new etiquette has evolved.

When you hole out  you rotate the device so the vertical bar is on the far side of the pin for the next player!

Funny times....
		
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Snap, the courtesy has developed that another player will _always_ go to the flag and spin the lever to hide the bar without the player putting having to ask. Means the device has in 99.9% of times abs no impact on the putt.  note that as spinning the lever requires a player going to the flag it takes just the same time as if he were attending it.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 26, 2021)

Great unless you are trying to hole it on the high side. Which is now blocked.

Having only played one course with the silly lifters, it was a royal pain in the back side.

One of the guys playing with us moved it to where he thought was best, but it took the old fella ages and was often not in a suitable position once he'd finished.

We'll not mention him standing all over everyone else's line whilst he was at it.

Just leave it and I'll move it myself if I feel the need.


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## D-S (Apr 26, 2021)

The simplest solution I’ve seen so far. It looks better, the insert to stop the ball falling all the way to the bottom isn’t intrusive and when we go back to full depth holes it is far easier to get the ball out reducing damage to the hole edges that had become a problem.


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## stueyginger (Jul 1, 2021)

Was wondering if any courses have now adopted taking the flags out - I'm aware a few courses near me have but my home course still has them in.

Apparently the SGA 'guidance'...guidance being the key word is to leave them in.

Get them out I've had enough, it's just not the same with short putts!!


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## Smiffy (Jul 1, 2021)

Can't stand putting with the bloody things in🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬


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## davidy233 (Jul 1, 2021)

I don't even notice that they are in - got used to them a long time ago.


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## Orikoru (Jul 1, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I don't even notice that they are in - got used to them a long time ago.
		
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Yeah, this really. That old faff of taking the flag out, laying it down, someone picking it up and waiting for the last person to putt out, all feels like a very distant memory.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 1, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Great unless you are trying to hole it on the high side. Which is now blocked.

*Having only played one course with the silly lifters, it was a royal pain in the back side.*

One of the guys playing with us moved it to where he thought was best, but it took the old fella ages and was often not in a suitable position once he'd finished.

We'll not mention him standing all over everyone else's line whilst he was at it.

Just leave it and I'll move it myself if I feel the need.
		
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Same, Kirrie couple weeks back, ended up with guys handling the lifter because it wouldn't spin properly. Took longer than tending the pin, and totally defeated the covid measures it was introduced for.


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## davidy233 (Jul 1, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Same, Kirrie couple weeks back, ended up with guys handling the lifter because it wouldn't spin properly. Took longer than tending the pin, and totally defeated the covid measures it was introduced for.
		
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The lifters are a total waste of time - it's not hard to pick a ball out of hole


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## davidy233 (Jul 1, 2021)

Our place is going for flags out if you want and rakes in bunkers from tomorrow - Their email says 'The Scottish Golf guidance is intended as guidance and is not legal advice'.

Also says there's no compulsion to use rakes or remove flags on anyone - if you want to continue to place within six inches in a bunker you can.


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## KenL (Jul 1, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Our place is going for flags out if you want and rakes in bunkers from tomorrow - Their email says 'The Scottish Golf guidance is intended as guidance and is not legal advice'.

Also says there's no compulsion to use rakes or remove flags on anyone - if you want to continue to place within six inches in a bunker you can.
		
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Never been legal. Doubt anyone would opt to play as it lies in a bunker when you have the option to place.

If clubs have pins like we have where the bottom is as thin as a pencil I see no reason to remove them.


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## davidy233 (Jul 1, 2021)

KenL said:



			Never been legal. Doubt anyone would opt to play as it lies in a bunker when you have the option to place.

If clubs have pins like we have where the bottom is as thin as a pencil I see no reason to remove them.
		
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I agree - stops the old folks bitching I suppose though


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 1, 2021)

KenL said:



			Never been legal. Doubt anyone would opt to play as it lies in a bunker when you have the option to place.

If clubs have pins like we have where the bottom is as thin as a pencil I see no reason to remove them.
		
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The rules give you a choice.
That’s reason enough not everyone likes them in.!


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 2, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Our place is going for flags out if you want and rakes in bunkers from tomorrow - Their email says 'The Scottish Golf guidance is intended as guidance and is not legal advice'.

Also says there's no compulsion to use rakes or remove flags on anyone - *if you want to continue to place within six inches in a bunker you can*.
		
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Well they shouldn't put rakes back out, preferred lies in bunkers was solely to cover the provision for covid of having rakes removed, if rakes are back, then no preferred lies. That's why your club is supposed to have done a risk assessment before making the return moves, if they think some people won't handle the rakes, then they should be out. 

The funny thing about this is, all those bitching about getting rakes back sure as hell won't be using them now, because they'd lose their preferred lie


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 2, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Well they shouldn't put rakes back out, preferred lies in bunkers was solely to cover the provision for covid of having rakes removed, if rakes are back, then no preferred lies. That's why your club is supposed to have done a risk assessment before making the return moves, if they think some people won't handle the rakes, then they should be out.

The funny thing about this is, all those bitching about getting rakes back sure as hell won't be using them now, because they'd lose their preferred lie
		
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Everyone would still be entitled to a preffered lie.!
Just a choice of using the rake or not depending on your risk awareness.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2021)

Risk awareness, or risk perception?  

Our club has the "riser" things in the holes.  My regular 4 ball (2 blokes in  50s and 2 in their 60s) have been using them in the prescribed way, using the putter to lift up the handle to remove the ball.  

Played last night with 2 chaps, late 20s/early 30s.  Completely ignored the levers, just picked the ball from the hole.  

Which is sensible?  I frankly have no idea!   Safe to put the rakes back out and remove the flag?  Nope, no idea either.  Weird world we live in!


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## nickjdavis (Jul 2, 2021)

The lifters caused untold damage to our holes because folks wouldn't use them properly.

They would lift the ball out and then let the device fall back into the hole due to gravity instead of lowering it gently themselves...invariably the device would catch the edge of the hole and eventually break it down.

One evening I was teeing off on one hole and watched two guys putt out an on adjacent hole....both balls were in the hole, and one player ripped the lifting device out of the hole so hard that both balls jumped up to waist height where one of them was caught by the player. Unfortunately the violent lifting of the device again caught the edge of the hole removing turf. I did wander over to them and pointed out ~(in a friendly casual manner) what was happening and why they should not do what they were doing, but all I got was them saying that they were not doing what I was "accusing" them of and what business was it of mine anyway.

Best thing we did when we got rid of the lifting devices and allowed players to use their own discretion whether to remove flags or not (a lot of players by this time were so fed up with bounce outs that they were taking them out anyway).


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## Orikoru (Jul 2, 2021)

Personally hope the rakes never come back. Haven't had to play a plugged lie in a bunker for 18 months!


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## Orikoru (Jul 2, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			The lifters caused untold damage to our holes because folks wouldn't use them properly.

They would lift the ball out and then let the device fall back into the hole due to gravity instead of lowering it gently themselves...invariably the device would catch the edge of the hole and eventually break it down.

One evening I was teeing off on one hole and watched two guys putt out an on adjacent hole....both balls were in the hole, and one player ripped the lifting device out of the hole so hard that both balls jumped up to waist height where one of them was caught by the player. Unfortunately the violent lifting of the device again caught the edge of the hole removing turf. I did wander over to them and pointed out ~(in a friendly casual manner) what was happening and why they should not do what they were doing, but all I got was them saying that they were not doing what I was "accusing" them of and what business was it of mine anyway.

Best thing we did when we got rid of the lifting devices and allowed players to use their own discretion whether to remove flags or not (a lot of players by this time were so fed up with bounce outs that they were taking them out anyway).
		
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Said it all along, but lifting devices were an absolutely shocking idea for a multitude of reasons. I hate those things. Clearly the better solution was the foam inserts to raise the bottom of the cup. Simple and effective.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 2, 2021)

We have had mandatory mini rakes throughout lock down so I haven’t experienced pick and place in bunkers.

I was commenting the other day how nice it was to have gone 18 months without having a crappy shot in a bunker due to an ill positioned rake.  I’d genuinely be happy if we never re-introduced course rakes.


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## Neilds (Jul 2, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			T*he lifters caused untold damage to our holes because folks wouldn't use them properly.*

They would lift the ball out and then let the device fall back into the hole due to gravity instead of lowering it gently themselves...invariably the device would catch the edge of the hole and eventually break it down.

One evening I was teeing off on one hole and watched two guys putt out an on adjacent hole....both balls were in the hole, and one player ripped the lifting device out of the hole so hard that both balls jumped up to waist height where one of them was caught by the player. Unfortunately the violent lifting of the device again caught the edge of the hole removing turf. I did wander over to them and pointed out ~(in a friendly casual manner) what was happening and why they should not do what they were doing, but all I got was them saying that they were not doing what I was "accusing" them of and what business was it of mine anyway.

Best thing we did when we got rid of the lifting devices and allowed players to use their own discretion whether to remove flags or not (a lot of players by this time were so fed up with bounce outs that they were taking them out anyway).
		
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The lifters just sit there minding their own business, never damaged the course at all.  What caused the damage is idiots not using them properly   Seen it loads of times, must be a competition to see how high you can get the ball


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 2, 2021)

IanM said:



			Risk awareness, or risk perception?  

Our club has the "riser" things in the holes.  My regular 4 ball (2 blokes in  50s and 2 in their 60s) have been using them in the prescribed way, using the putter to lift up the handle to remove the ball. 

Played last night with 2 chaps, late 20s/early 30s.  Completely ignored the levers, just picked the ball from the hole. 

Which is sensible?  I frankly have no idea!   Safe to put the rakes back out and remove the flag?  Nope, no idea either.  Weird world we live in!
		
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Awareness some are very aware of the risk.
Some don’t give a ****.
Some are just idiots you can’t change that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2021)

Neilds said:



			The lifters just sit there minding their own business, never damaged the course at all.  What caused the damage is idiots not using them properly   Seen it loads of times, must be a competition to see how high you can get the ball
		
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Correct.  The lifters on our flagsticks will not damage a hole if used even vaguely carefully.  I have on more than one occasion pointed out that damage can be caused when a playing companion flicks it up in the air - the ball is thrown out and the lifter is allowed to freely clatter down.  As I point out to the miscreant - Its a lifter, not a thrower.  I can’t be bothered when folk use them carelessly.  All that is required is a tiny and momentary bit of care.  Lift and let back down. Easy.

I have absolutely no concerns about not being able to take the flag out when back in the day when the ‘flag can be left in’ rule was introduced I usually had the flag removed.  I didn’t like putting with the flag in.  The restriction imposed by the pandemic finds me now completely comfortable with putting with flag in.  Now that I am used to I suspect that if and when flags can once again be removed I may well just continue putting with them in.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 2, 2021)

I would not fancy using a £350 scotty or any putter with a paint finish to lift them things.
But using the grip end is unhygienic.
Just foam in ours works perfectly well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would not fancy using a £350 scotty or any putter with a paint finish to lift them things.
But using the grip end is unhygienic.
Just foam in ours works perfectly well.
		
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Ours have a ‘soft‘ plastic sleeve over the metal lifting arm, risk of damage to putter is therefore low.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct.  The lifters on our flagsticks will not damage a hole if used even vaguely carefully.  I have on more than one occasion pointed out that damage can be caused when a playing companion flicks it up in the air - the ball is thrown out and the lifter is allowed to freely clatter down.  As I point out to the miscreant - Its a lifter, not a thrower.  I can’t be bothered when folk use them carelessly.  All that is required is a tiny and momentary bit of care.  Lift and let back down. Easy.

I have absolutely no concerns about not being able to take the flag out when back in the day when the ‘flag can be left in’ rule was introduced I usually had the flag removed.  I didn’t like putting with the flag in.  The restriction imposed by the pandemic finds me now completely comfortable with putting with flag in.  Now that I am used to I suspect that if and when flags can once again be removed I may well just continue putting with them in.
		
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I have got used to it over a certain length.
But I still don’t like the flag in for short putts.
I seem to try and get the ball between the lip and the flag.
This causes many lip outs that don’t really touch the flag.
It’s me not the hole but I just don’t like hitting the flag with the ball.
Strange how some things in the mental side of the game seem harder to change.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 2, 2021)

I think to settle it, it should be in the rules that the group should vote on flagstick in or out, and in the event of a tie a coin flip 

I am vehemently flag in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 2, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I think to settle it, it should be in the rules that the group should vote on flagstick in or out, and in the event of a tie a coin flip

I am vehemently flag in.
		
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Or people are allowed to continue to have the flag how they want and everyone is happy then 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have got used to it over a certain length.
But I still don’t like the flag in for short putts.
I seem to try and get the ball between the lip and the flag.
This causes many lip outs that don’t really touch the flag.
It’s me not the hole but I just don’t like hitting the flag with the ball.
Strange how some things in the mental side of the game seem harder to change.
		
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The risk for short putts was demonstrated for all to see in the U18 champs at our place last weekend when our local lass elite golfer bounced a 1ft putt into the middle of the hole off the flag...that really unsettled her and her putting seemed a bit off for the rest of the day and may have contributed to her coming second.  She will of course deny that it was the cause but it certainly rattled her.


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## SammmeBee (Jul 2, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Said it all along, but lifting devices were an absolutely shocking idea for a multitude of reasons. I hate those things. Clearly the better solution was the foam inserts to raise the bottom of the cup. Simple and effective.
		
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And a waste of money…..but golf clubs are great at that!


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## davidy233 (Jul 3, 2021)

Raked a bunker tonight - still not taken a flag out and may not again. Also confirmed what I thought I had noticed earlier in the week - we don't have foam inserts in the holes anymore.


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## Orikoru (Jul 6, 2021)

Well, our club just sent us an email including these words:

*Boris Johnson has recently announced Covid restrictions in England will be relaxed from the 19th of July. This means from the 19th the pins can be taken out, or attended, and the rakes can be replaced in the bunkers, no more pick and place.*

That's going to take some getting used to again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well, our club just sent us an email including these words:

*Boris Johnson has recently announced Covid restrictions in England will be relaxed from the 19th of July. This means from the 19th the pins can be taken out, or attended, and the rakes can be replaced in the bunkers, no more pick and place.*

That's going to take some getting used to again. 

Click to expand...

Has the club had the update from England Golf then ? Or are they making presumptions based on what PM said 

Whilst we expect pins etc to be back to normal certainly not going to communicate until confirmed


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

Our club has had rakes and pins out for about two weeks.  It is lovely to have the flag out for putting again.


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## Orikoru (Jul 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has the club had the update from England Golf then ? Or are they making presumptions based on what PM said

Whilst we expect pins etc to be back to normal certainly not going to communicate until confirmed
		
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No idea! He might have jumped the gun I suppose! But as we have seen in this topic (including post above this one), some clubs have gone there already anyway.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well, our club just sent us an email including these words:

*Boris Johnson has recently announced Covid restrictions in England will be relaxed from the 19th of July. This means from the 19th the pins can be taken out, or attended, and the rakes can be replaced in the bunkers, no more pick and place.*

That's going to take some getting used to again. 

Click to expand...

Yes all of us used to having a nice lie in the bunkers will need to practice fried eggs again.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			No idea! He might have jumped the gun I suppose! But as we have seen in this topic (including post above this one), some clubs have gone there already anyway.
		
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On a serious note what happens if some players refuse to use the rakes? ( there will be some)
Will they have their own small ones?
I wouldn’t be to happy if I landed in their footprints.
If the last few months are any indication some golfers make NO attempt to smooth them out.
But with no preffered lie that’s going to be a problem.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			On a serious note what happens if some players refuse to use the rakes? ( there will be some)
Will they have their own small ones?
I wouldn’t be to happy if I landed in their footprints.
If the last few months are any indication some golfers make NO attempt to smooth them out.
But with no preffered lie that’s going to be a problem.
		
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Has that not always been the case though. Some people don't rake, don't repair pitchmarks etc. They are just inconsiderate. The rest of us will rake as usual.

In all honesty, rakes out has been fine with me. There were lots of comments at the beginning of all this about how awful bunkers would be in terms of foot marks etc but I have not had any issues or seen any horror bunkers. No more worries about rakes left in the bunker, left out


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## Imurg (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm trying to get the image in my head of those who never raked bunkers saying to themselves "Great, they're putting the rakes out again"


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has that not always been the case though. Some people don't rake, don't repair pitchmarks etc. They are just inconsiderate. The rest of us will rake as usual.

In all honesty, rakes out has been fine with me. There were lots of comments at the beginning of all this about how awful bunkers would be in terms of foot marks etc but I have not had any issues or seen any horror bunkers. No more worries about rakes left in the bunker, left out 

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Some of our bunkers have quite steep sides and not that easy to get out of so the last footprint could have been made by a 20st yetty.
I would take the sand out and put wild grass in them all .
Much more of a punishment that sand.
You never hear a pro shout “ get in the long grass”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 6, 2021)

It’s reverting to normal:
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/?utm_campaign=1854148_05.07.21 England Golf Update Changes from 19 July&utm_medium=email&utm_source=The England Golf Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,13QO4,3B8OPO,51494,1


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s reverting to normal:
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/?utm_campaign=1854148_05.07.21 England Golf Update Changes from 19 July&utm_medium=email&utm_source=The England Golf Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,13QO4,3B8OPO,51494,1

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We have just had the email from my club with the update. I've got to get back to filling in a card properly again 😱. I've enjoyed the freedom of PSI only.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

Never miss an opportunity to go back to the way we've always done it. Just because that was the way it was always done.

Then listen to someone bleat on about being a traditionalist blah blah..........


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## HampshireHog (Jul 6, 2021)

More importantly can I still use the IG app to get beer 🍺


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Never miss an opportunity to go back to the way we've always done it. Just because that was the way it was always done.

Then listen to someone bleat on about being a traditionalist blah blah..........
		
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Hopefully the good won’t be forgotten and Clubs keep moving forward.

I do agree though it’ll be a shame if some don’t.


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