# Broom Handle Putters



## WinBase (Jul 25, 2015)

Personally ive never liked them & would give the game up before subjecting myself to the embarrassment and sniggers of club mates if I turned up with one, and am glad they are being banned on the tour next year -IMHO not a 'proper' golf club - no doubt there's many out there disagree so why?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

No issue with them and I know a number of players who went close to giving up the game as their putting was killing them so went to either a broom handle or belly putter and found a new lease of life 

They aren't be banned and can't see why they are an embarrassment 

If the item allows people to carry on playing then have no issue at all with them 

They have been around for decades 

As soon as a few people win a major with them ( think its 4 ) you hear cries of unfair etc - if they were that much of a help then wouldn't expect to see a lot more using them. Don't think the use of them being anchored should have been banned


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## Pin-seeker (Jul 25, 2015)

I'm not a fan of them,but I don't really care if they ban them or not. 
All players currently have the option to use them so I can't see the problem.


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## WinBase (Jul 25, 2015)

Hi Phil

Thanks for the comments, but I don't think i'm mistaken in saying that both the R&A and USGA ARE banning them from 2016. The first time I can remember seeing one was Sam Torrance, possibly in the ryder cup (cant remember what year) but certainly remember some of the expletives I heard people say lol, so although they have been around for years as you say, personally i'm surprised they haven't been banned before, but that's my opinion. Golf is a game of tradition, played more or less the same way forever, and while the quality of equipment always improves, If players are allowed to adopt any style holding the club, then couldn't an argument be made for allowing some modified 'snooker style' for example (as long as certain pre-requisites on arm movement, club size, head shape etc meet current rules), and as for people close to giving up, well I wouldn't like to see that but most sports have guidance of the sizes, shapes and use of equipment, and if you cant meet them then that's just the way it goes, and basically that's what the governing bodies have said moving forward with anchored putters - GL


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

The broom handle putter or belly butter will not be banned from 2016


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## WinBase (Jul 25, 2015)

hmmm methinks you are being a tad obtuse for the sake of it, Ok I will rephrase: the anchored stroke is banned, which will in effect be the end of broom/belly putters


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## Spuddy (Jul 25, 2015)

Anchoring is being banned, not the putters themselves.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

WinBase said:



			hmmm methinks you are being a tad obtuse for the sake of it, Ok I will rephrase: the anchored stroke is banned, which will in effect be the end of broom/belly putters
		
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Not really as will still see people using them but won't anchor them.


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## WinBase (Jul 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not really as will still see people using them but won't anchor them.
		
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I will look forward to seeing that lol - GL


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## Fyldewhite (Jul 25, 2015)

They are and always have been a departure from the traditional method of hitting a golf ball. It's not the style or length of the putter but the anchoring it to the body that is the issue. To me this putting style falls into the same category as croquet putting which was banned (60?) years ago. 

I agree with the ban on anchoring and really don't buy the "can't putt without them" argument. Just get on with it and accept where the limitations of getting older take your game.


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## WinBase (Jul 25, 2015)

If anyone's interested in the why's and wherefore's, here's some links

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Anchoring.aspx

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2013/05/21/anchoring-rule.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

For decades and decades people used longer putters both anchored and non anchored - believe people in the 50's on tour were using the longer putter and not an eyelid was battered until Simpson and Bradley won the U.S. Open and PGA respectively add in Els and Scott in the Open and Masters and the cries of "cheating" and not in the traditions of the game etc etc appeared in the press did the governing body react. 

If those people hadn't won those comps over that 3 year period then nothing would have happened. 

I'm sure as players hit the ball further etc they will look at driver and balls to curb them


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## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm sure as players hit the ball further etc they will look at driver and balls to curb them
		
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They already have done Phil. The COR (trampoline effect) of driver faces was addressed several years back, making a number of drivers illegal. Got a feeling the dimple numbers also has a restriction.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 25, 2015)

The ban is an absolute farce and virtually impossible to enforce. Read the R&A definition of anchoring and explain to me how it can be policed. The forearm or hand cannot be anchored but the upper arm can. When you take into account layers of clothing, how do you ensure there is a gap between forearm and chest? It comes down to personal interpretation, one person may argue the forearm is not anchored by a PP may argue it is. Who makes the decision?

Either leave things as they are or put a restriction on the maximum length for putters.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Anchoring/Anchoring-Guidelines.aspx


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## ScienceBoy (Jul 25, 2015)

Nothing wrong with the clubs themselves, its anchoring that is wrong and should never have been allowed.

Perfectly fine to have a long putter as long as its not anchored to the body.


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No issue with them and I know a number of players who went close to giving up the game as their putting was killing them so went to either a broom handle or belly putter and found a new lease of life 

They aren't be banned and can't see why they are an embarrassment 

If the item allows people to carry on playing then have no issue at all with them 

They have been around for decades 

As soon as a few people win a major with them ( think its 4 ) you hear cries of unfair etc - if they were that much of a help then wouldn't expect to see a lot more using them. Don't think the use of them being anchored should have been banned
		
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If they are not banned, they should be limited in length to 48", same as drivers. Otherwise they are a cheating stick for measuring out club lengths.

Maybe if the hole was a bit bigger, players wouldn't get putting problems (usually the yips) in the first place, so there would be no need for longer putters or anchoring to keep people in the game!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			If they are not banned, they should be limited in length to 48", same as drivers. Otherwise they are a cheating stick for measuring out club lengths.

*Maybe if the hole was a bit bigger*, players wouldn't get putting problems (usually the yips) in the first place, so there would be no need for longer putters or anchoring to keep people in the game!
		
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Sweet jesus not again !!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 25, 2015)

As usual the R&A had a golden opportunity and fudge it. The anchored stroke and the definition is complicated as drive4show explains. It's open to abuse and will come down to interpretation. as for bigger holes.... just let it go. That's not going to happen


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## c1973 (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			If they are not banned, they should be limited in length to 48", same as drivers. Otherwise they are a cheating stick for measuring out club lengths.
*
Maybe if the hole was a bit bigger, players wouldn't get putting problems (usually the yips) in the first place, *so there would be no need for longer putters or anchoring to keep people in the game!
		
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An interesting point. Not sure if it would work though, Not that I've given it much thought (never having had the yips). It might do away with the whole anchoring debate. 

Care to elaborate on your train of thought on this?


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

c1973 said:



			An interesting point. Not sure if it would work though, Not that I've given it much thought (never having had the yips). It might do away with the whole anchoring debate. 

Care to elaborate on your train of thought on this? 



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The yips (which I've had) normally start with 3 1/2 to 5 feet putts, the sort of distance you might leave a long approach putt from the hole, and which you should really make. In reality a good putter will make only 95% of 3 feet putts and about 60% of 6 feet ones with the standard sized hole, so missing the odd one shouldn't be that unexpected. Problem is that putting gets into your head, and once you have yipped a putt, it tends to keep happening, especially on putts that you should make, and will spread up and down the distance range. I was most likely to yip (and miss) tiddlers, and long approach putts when there was some pressure on getting the distance right.  The yips generally affect low handicap players who have played the game seriously for twenty years or more. That is why a fair percentage of Senior golfers use long putters and anchored putting styles. I'm suggesting that a modest increase in the size of the hole might largely prevent the yips. There is no good reason other than an accident of history and tradition for the hole being the size it is!

P.S.  I suppose I ought to define the yips. Theyare a sort of involuntary twitch that will cause the putt to go off in the wrong direction and at the wrong pace. Feels like the club going off in your hands!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			There is no good reason other than an accident of history and tradition for the hole being the size it is!
		
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Just like playing 18 holes or having 14 clubs or there being bunkers on a course etc etc


How about 12 inch holes so you don't miss putts, 6 hole courses to get round quicker and 25 clubs so you have one for every conceivable distance?

Anything else you would like to change?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			Blah blah blah blah
		
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Edited for correction :thup:


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## buggerlugs (Jul 25, 2015)

I once saw Adam Scott take a 2 club length drop from a Bush that his ball had landed in. And he used his putter to measure it, that was just wrong in my opinion. A "normal" length club wouldn't even have got him out of the bush !


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 25, 2015)

drive4show said:



			Just like playing 18 holes or having 14 clubs or there being bunkers on a course etc etc


How about 12 inch holes so you don't miss putts, 6 hole courses to get round quicker and 25 clubs so you have one for every conceivable distance?

Anything else you would like to change?
		
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It's a pet gripe of the poster and there are loads (too many) posts about it. It is the size it is. Get over it and stop hankering for what you can't have.


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It's a pet gripe of the poster and there are loads (too many) posts about it. It is the size it is. Get over it and stop hankering for what you can't have.
		
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If I don't push the case, I will have even less chance of getting it! I am not the only one to suggest it by the way. Prominent protagonists include Jack Nickaus and the chairman of Taylor Made.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			If I don't push the case, I will have even less chance of getting it! I am not the only one to suggest it by the way. Prominent protagonists include Jack Nickaus and the chairman of Taylor Made.
		
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You're not going to get bigger holes by banging on about it on here all the time, write to the R&A and the USGA if you feel so strongly about it.

Good luck  :thup:


BTW.....have you considered that if the hole size was increased and you holed more putts, your handicap would come down. You would then be under the same pressure again to hole even more putts to play to handicap.

Ever decreasing circles......................


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## c1973 (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			The yips (which I've had) normally start with 3 1/2 to 5 feet putts, the sort of distance you might leave a long approach putt from the hole, and which you should really make. In reality a good putter will make only 95% of 3 feet putts and about 60% of 6 feet ones with the standard sized hole, so missing the odd one shouldn't be that unexpected. Problem is that putting gets into your head, and once you have yipped a putt, it tends to keep happening, especially on putts that you should make, and will spread up and down the distance range. I was most likely to yip (and miss) tiddlers, and long approach putts when there was some pressure on getting the distance right.  The yips generally affect low handicap players who have played the game seriously for twenty years or more. That is why a fair percentage of Senior golfers use long putters and anchored putting styles. I'm suggesting that a modest increase in the size of the hole might largely prevent the yips. There is no good reason other than an accident of history and tradition for the hole being the size it is!

P.S.  I suppose I ought to define the yips. Theyare a sort of involuntary twitch that will cause the putt to go off in the wrong direction and at the wrong pace. Feels like the club going off in your hands!
		
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It would probably have an effect on round times as well I'd imagine. Bigger hole = more putts made = less time on green. 
A win win situation by the looks of it.


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## rosecott (Jul 25, 2015)

c1973 said:



			It would probably have an effect on round times as well I'd imagine. Bigger hole = more putts made = less time on green. 
A win win situation by the looks of it.
		
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And a diminishing of the skills necessary to play golf.

You could make it even quicker if you add only 2 shots onto your score if you get the ball within 10 metres of the green and move on.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2015)

WinBase said:



			I will look forward to seeing that lol - GL
		
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You dont need to look forward - Matt Kucher's been doing it for years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

Noticed a few of the seniors didn't have the putter anchored on their sturnum but their top hand/thumb was ? Is that a way around the ban ?


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## c1973 (Jul 25, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Noticed a few of the seniors didn't have the putter anchored on their sturnum but their top hand/thumb was ? Is that a way around the ban ?
		
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Shouldn't be. It's still anchoring in my book.


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

Putting is a sort of game within a game, and can be played in its own right on municipal putting greens, etc. There are some quite magnificent strikers of a golf ball who can't putt, and therefore wouldn't be able to earn a living on any pro tour. These unfortunate souls often become trick shot artists, long drive champions or club teaching pros. If you want to be successful as a tour pro you have to be a good putter.

Interestingly there was no standard size for golf holes until 1891, when the R&A adopted a size based on a hole cutter made by a green keeper at Musselburgh back in 1829. This was based on a piece of discarded iron drain pipe which just happened to be 4 1/4" in outside diameter. Other clubs dug holes out with trowels or some similar gardening implement. So there is no Act of God or Law of Physics that says that the hole has to be a certain size! It might be worth trialling a few different sized holes to find out what people like.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			More blah blah blah
		
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Corrected for you :thup:


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## BTatHome (Jul 25, 2015)

drive4show said:



			The ban is an absolute farce and virtually impossible to enforce. Read the R&A definition of anchoring and explain to me how it can be policed. The forearm or hand cannot be anchored but the upper arm can. When you take into account layers of clothing, how do you ensure there is a gap between forearm and chest? It comes down to personal interpretation, one person may argue the forearm is not anchored by a PP may argue it is. Who makes the decision?
		
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Isn't golf an honourable gentlemanly game, surely the player themselves will know if they are anchoring the putter. Or are you saying that suddenly there will be many more dishonourable people playing?


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2015)

BTatHome said:



			Isn't golf an honourable gentlemanly game, surely the player themselves will know if they are anchoring the putter. Or are you saying that suddenly there will be many more dishonourable people playing?
		
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No idea - he's be saying it since the decision was posted.

I've been saying that there is no problem in ruling against the rule wording in practice,  none at all. Therea alao little point in the particular discussion anyeay as there either will, or wont be, in due coirse.
However, as ever on here such debate is  vital...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			It might be worth trialling a few different sized holes to find out what people like.
		
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Why? No-one will agree on what the right size should be. It's a given size. Accept it. You bring this up every few weeks and nothing is going to change. The R&A will not change it.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why? No-one will agree on what the right size should be. It's a given size. Accept it. You bring this up every few weeks and nothing is going to change. The R&A will not change it.
		
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6 X 3 X 2 has previously been suggested as appropriate :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 25, 2015)

BTatHome said:



			Isn't golf an honourable gentlemanly game, surely the player themselves will know if they are anchoring the putter. Or are you saying that suddenly there will be many more dishonourable people playing?
		
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What I'm saying is the ruling is open to individual interpretation.


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why? No-one will agree on what the right size should be. It's a given size. Accept it. You bring this up every few weeks and nothing is going to change. The R&A will not change it.
		
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There would be a number of advantages to increasing the size of the hole:
1) Less chance of players developing the putting yips.
2) Would speed up play. Badly needed!
3) Would make golf more enjoyable/less frustrating for the vast majority of players who are not fantastic putters.
4) No need for long putters.


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## delc (Jul 25, 2015)

drive4show said:



			What I'm saying is the ruling is open to individual interpretation.
		
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Basically you cannot anchor the butt end of the putter, or any part of your top hand or arm against your body. I am sure that any long putter uses will use a method that shows they are not anchoring. Even easier, go back to a short putter!


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## Crow (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			Interestingly there was no standard size for golf holes until 1891, when the R&A adopted a size based on a hole cutter made by a green keeper at Musselburgh back in 1829. This was based on a piece of discarded iron drain pipe which just happened to be 4 1/4" in outside diameter. Other clubs dug holes out with trowels or some similar gardening implement. *So there is no Act of God or Law of Physics that says that the hole has to be a certain size!* It might be worth trialling a few different sized holes to find out what people like.
		
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But there are the rules of golf that say this!

If you want to make golf easier, in addition to a 12 inch diameter hole I suggest the following:

* Shorten hole lengths, how about 3 feet maximum, combined with the 12 inch diameter hole most people will get a hole in one every time! 

* Reduce the number of holes to one, this will speed up the round and reduce the mounting pressure on a player who might be having a good round as their round will be over after one shot and they won't, therefore, crumble under pressure on the back nine. :thup:


These adjustments might take the fun and challenge out of the game but hey-ho.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2015)

delc said:



			Basically *you cannot anchor the butt end of the putter, or any part of your top hand or arm against your body*. I am sure that any long putter uses will use a method that shows they are not anchoring. Even easier, go back to a short putter!
		
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So could I get a 10ft long putter and rest the shaft (firmly) against my shoulder so that it becomes a pivot point and putt like that perfectly legally?


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## Imurg (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			There would be a number of advantages to increasing the size of the hole:
1) Less chance of players developing the putting yips.
2) Would speed up play. Badly needed!
3) Would make golf more enjoyable/less frustrating for the vast majority of players who are not fantastic putters.
4) No need for long putters.
		
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They'll still get the yips when they start missing 5 footers instead of 3 footers.
If you're trying to speed up play, making the hole bigger shouldn't be the answer.
Putting, believe it or not, is the easiest thing to get reasonable at in golf.
Although there is a technique involved, you're rolling a balls few yards on a purpose built area of smooth grass. You're not taking a full swing where the club moves 20 feet or whatever, the putter head moves a Foot or 2 - maximum! 
Given a relatively flat green, there is no reason why you couldn't teach a complete beginner to take 2 putts from 10 feet in about 20 minutes of practice.
Of course we all miss short putts, we also hole long ones.
Putting is a lot easier than a lot of people make it seem.

Apart from on the Pro circuit, I'm struggling to recall seeing a long putter on the course. Having said that, I've always been against anchoring as you don't hold the putter in your hands and swing freely.
But the decision has been made so those who use them have to abide by it..


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## guest100718 (Jul 26, 2015)

I see a number of players have already gone back to the regular putter in anticipation of the ban, although i ssaw scott was still using the broomstick, has he said what he is likely to do next year?


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## Imurg (Jul 26, 2015)

guest100718 said:



			I see a number of players have already gone back to the regular putter in anticipation of the ban, although i ssaw scott was still using the broomstick, has he said what he is likely to do next year?
		
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I'm sure I heard he was going to continue with the long putter but not anchor it.... 
Not sure if that's true ....


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## Fyldewhite (Jul 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			They'll still get the yips when they start missing 5 footers instead of 3 footers.
If you're trying to speed up play, making the hole bigger shouldn't be the answer.
Putting, believe it or not, is the easiest thing to get reasonable at in golf.
Although there is a technique involved, you're rolling a balls few yards on a purpose built area of smooth grass. You're not taking a full swing where the club moves 20 feet or whatever, the putter head moves a Foot or 2 - maximum! 
Given a relatively flat green, there is no reason why you couldn't teach a complete beginner to take 2 putts from 10 feet in about 20 minutes of practice.
Of course we all miss short putts, we also hole long ones.
Putting is a lot easier than a lot of people make it seem.

Apart from on the Pro circuit, I'm struggling to recall seeing a long putter on the course. Having said that, I've always been against anchoring as you don't hold the putter in your hands and swing freely.
But the decision has been made so those who use them have to abide by it..
		
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Fully agree and I just don't buy the "I can't putt without them" argument. It's all in the head, just get on with it as like you say it's the simplest part of the game, easy to practice and easy to get reasonably good at. Reminds me of Eric Bristow and his "Dartitis" in the 1980's.....utter nonsense.


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			They'll still get the yips when they start missing 5 footers instead of 3 footers.
If you're trying to speed up play, making the hole bigger shouldn't be the answer.
Putting, believe it or not, is the easiest thing to get reasonable at in golf.
Although there is a technique involved, you're rolling a balls few yards on a purpose built area of smooth grass. You're not taking a full swing where the club moves 20 feet or whatever, the putter head moves a Foot or 2 - maximum! 
Given a relatively flat green, there is no reason why you couldn't teach a complete beginner to take 2 putts from 10 feet in about 20 minutes of practice.
Of course we all miss short putts, we also hole long ones.
Putting is a lot easier than a lot of people make it seem.

Apart from on the Pro circuit, I'm struggling to recall seeing a long putter on the course. Having said that, I've always been against anchoring as you don't hold the putter in your hands and swing freely.
But the decision has been made so those who use them have to abide by it..
		
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I was a reasonably good putter until I developed the yips at age 55! They started when I had a 4 foot putt to win a foursomes match at the 17th hole. It missed well left and went about 6ft past. A few weeks later I scored a 7 on a par-3 after hitting my tee shot to 20 feet! Once you have got the yips, putting is anything but easy. A right handed friend of mine ended up putting left handed as that was the only way he could make a reasonable putting stroke. I now use the claw grip as a fix. As I said before the putting yips normally affect good middle-aged golfers who have played the game for twenty years or more. Famous sufferers have included Harry Vardon, Ben Hogan, and Bernhardt Langer who developed them (the first time) at the age of only 20.

If a hole size was selected that would allow most players to hole 95% of 4 footers, I think that would solve the problem, as you should be able to get your approach putt within that range. Needn't be much larger than the current hole.


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## Imurg (Jul 26, 2015)

Maybe the solution is a stronger mind and worrying less about a GAME...!!!


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			So could I get a 10ft long putter and rest the shaft (firmly) against my shoulder so that it becomes a pivot point and putt like that perfectly legally?
		
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I suggest you reference the rules rather than the delc 'basically' version - it's a lot easier and more appropriate that way.


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Maybe the solution is a stronger mind and worrying less about a GAME...!!!
		
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Bernhardt Langer is a pretty strong-minded individual, but that didn't stop him from developing the yips! Tournament golf was (and still is) his profession, so it was a bit more serious for him! Having said that many amateur club golfers take the game pretty seriously!


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Fully agree and I just don't buy the "I can't putt without them" argument. It's all in the head, just get on with it as like you say it's the simplest part of the game, easy to practice and easy to get reasonably good at. Reminds me of Eric Bristow and his "Dartitis" in the 1980's.....utter nonsense.
		
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The yips don't only affect golfers. In fact any sport that requires fine motor skills. Darts players suddenly find they can't let go of the dart at the right moment, bowlers in cricket can't let go of the ball, and snooker players develop a twitch in their cue action. The latter is the reason why Stephen Hendry retired from competitive snooker.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2015)

Why oh why has a thread about the banning or use of broom handle putters turned into once again another thread about "Yips" and bigger holes from Delc. 

It's a two monthly cycle and nothing new has changed


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why oh why has a thread about the banning or use of broom handle putters turned into once again another thread about "Yips" and bigger holes from Delc. 

It's a two monthly cycle and nothing new has changed
		
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The only good reason for broom handle putters is that they allow players who have developed the yips to stay in the game and putt reasonably well. Therefore the topics are totally connected!


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## Imurg (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Bernhardt Langer is a pretty strong-minded individual, but that didn't stop him from developing the yips! Tournament golf was (and still is) his profession, so it was a bit more serious for him! Having said that many amateur club golfers take the game pretty seriously!
		
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And there is the problem.
If its your livelihood then I can understand how sinking a 3 footer can be the difference between getting a new kitchen or not but in OUR game, too many people put far too much pressure on themselves when all that is at stake is a drink, a couple of quid or 0.1 on you handicap.
Don't confuse the world of the Tournament professional with the World of the Sunday Roll-Up...
Their golf matters - ours, in the great scheme of things, doesn't.

Keep holes the same size
Anchoring is banned from January

End of thread


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## Craigg (Jul 26, 2015)

Imurg said:



			And there is the problem.
If its your livelihood then I can understand how sinking a 3 footer can be the difference between getting a new kitchen or not but in OUR game, too many people put far too much pressure on themselves when all that is at stake is a drink, a couple of quid or 0.1 on you handicap.
Don't confuse the world of the Tournament professional with the World of the Sunday Roll-Up...
Their golf matters - ours, in the great scheme of things, doesn't.

Keep holes the same size
Anchoring is banned from January

End of thread
		
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And that gentlemen, is the voice of reason. :thup:


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Craigg said:



			And that gentlemen, is the voice of reason. :thup:
		
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In reality 'this putt to win the monthly medal' may put as much pressure on a player's mind as 'this putt to win the Open Championship and a million quid'!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			In reality 'this putt to win the monthly medal' may put as much pressure on a player's mind as 'this putt to win the Open Championship and a million quid'!
		
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Do you have a live leaderboard at your monthly medal? If not how do you know that you have a putt to win? Surely you just have a putt to return a good score.


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you have a live leaderboard at your monthly medal? If not how do you know that you have a putt to win? Surely you just have a putt to return a good score.
		
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I think most players have a pretty good idea of a probable winning score. At our course about 3 or 4 under SSS net in a medal, or 40+ points in a Stableford.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I think most players have a pretty good idea of a probable winning score. At our course about 3 or 4 under SSS net in a medal, or 40+ points in a Stableford.
		
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It's still massively different to someone having thier lively hood relying on a putt 

If you miss the putt - oh well it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things 

A pro and it means he earns less 

we may play the same game as the pro but we play with no pressure they have the pressure of being able to look after themselves and their families because of it

You will never know if a putt is for a win because you will never know the score of everyone playing bar maybe club champs second round


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's still massively different to someone having thier lively hood relying on a putt 

If you miss the putt - oh well it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things 

A pro and it means he earns less 

we may play the same game as the pro but we play with no pressure they have the pressure of being able to look after themselves and their families because of it

*You will never know if a putt is for a win because you will never know the score of everyone playing bar maybe club champs second round*

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OK, putt for the Club Championship, or for a match, when you know exactly what you need.  My first yipped putt was for a win in a foursomes match.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			OK, putt for the Club Championship, or for a match, when you know exactly what you need.  My first yipped putt was for a win in a foursomes match.  

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Again it's just social golf it's not golf that means you need to earn a living. 

It doesn't make it any different. 

It doesn't really matter and you will hit the ball again the next time you play with no worries because it's a hobby.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			OK, putt for the Club Championship, or for a match, when you know exactly what you need.  My first yipped putt was for a win in a foursomes match.  

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You claim to have cured your yips by changing grip so why the need to make the hole bigger?


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

drive4show said:



			You claim to have cured your yips by changing grip so why the need to make the hole bigger?
		
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I would much rather not have had them in the first place! I came close to giving up golf altogether because I could no longer get even vaguely respectable scores, and I could miss 6" putts! Fortunately I discovered the claw grip just in time!


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I would much rather not have had them in the first place! I came close to giving up golf altogether because I could no longer get even vaguely respectable scores, and I could miss 6" putts! Fortunately I discovered the claw grip just in time! 

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I understand the yips, but don't understand how changing he hole size impacts on them the way you suggest.

The mental function is a simple relationship between expected performance and the fear of failing to perform to that.

Make the hole bigger and you simply change the expectation ie you have exactly the same pressure on a  10ft straight putt that you previously had for a 4ft one.

Nothing else changes.


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			I understand the yips, but don't understand how changing he hole size impacts on them the way you suggest.

The mental function is a simple relationship between expected performance and the fear of failing to perform to that.

Make the hole bigger and you simply change the expectation ie you have exactly the same pressure on a  10ft straight putt that you previously had for a 4ft one.

Nothing else changes.
		
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You are much more likely to get an approach chip or long putt within 10 feet than 4 feet! I think its fear of 3 putts that gets to people eventually!


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			You are much more likely to get an approach chip or long putt within 10 feet than 4 feet! I think its fear of 3 putts that gets to people eventually!
		
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Flawed logic again - more likely to get it to 4 ft from X yards is irelevant for the same reason.
You have already defined the cause of the yips in an earlier post - fear of failure. What constitutes failure is also irelevant because it just changes make the hole big enough and it might be a fear of 2 putting!


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Flawed logic again - more likely to get it to 4 ft from X yards is irelevant for the same reason.
You have already defined the cause of the yips in an earlier post - fear of failure. What constitutes failure is also irelevant because it just changes make the hole big enough and it might be a fear of 2 putting!
		
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Actually we don't really know exactly what causes the yips. It may be anxiety, fear of failure, psychological, neurological, or physical. What we do know is that they generally affect well learned, almost automatic fine motor skills such as putting and chipping in golf. Musicians such as pianists and guitar players can also get a form of them. A condition called focal dystonia, which is a localised loss of muscle control has been suggested. Watching somebody trying to putt with the yips is generally rather painful to see. Usually they can only manage an uncontrolled and jerky stab at the ball which can send it almost anywhere. In extreme cases they may not even be able to start their backswing! The only way of proving that the size of the golf hole has an effect would be to run a long term clinical trial, with one group only putting into a larger hole and a control group putting into the existing sized hole. My gut feeling is that slightly larger hole, say 5 or 6 " in diameter would reduce the incidence of the yips. For everyone who doesn't have the yips there would be the additional benefits of fewer lip-outs or horseshoes out of the hole!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2015)

If you can't get the ball in the hole that has been the same size for hundreds of years then instead of continuly crying to increase the size either deal with it as you are a social HC golfer with nothing riding on the game bar enjoyment or go and play another sport 

The size of the hole will not increase not many how many times you keep droning on about it so maybe it's time to park it and consign into the depths forever instead of going on about it every two months when ever you are given the opportunity. 

It's time for you to stop - either play the game as it is or play something else - simple


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## c1973 (Jul 26, 2015)

Do we not use a bigger ball now than we did years ago? Or is it smaller? Not sure, but the ball has defo changed size. 

Did the hole change size when this happened? I'm just thinking, bigger ball should have led to bigger hole.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Do we not use a bigger ball now than we did years ago? Or is it smaller? Not sure, but the ball has defo changed size. 

Did the hole change size when this happened? I'm just thinking, bigger ball should have led to bigger hole.




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Yawn.....


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Actually we don't really know exactly what causes the yips. It may be anxiety, fear of failure, psychological, neurological, or physical. What we do know is that they generally affect well learned, almost automatic fine motor skills such as putting and chipping in golf. Musicians such as pianists and guitar players can also get a form of them. A condition called focal dystonia, which is a localised loss of muscle control has been suggested. Watching somebody trying to putt with the yips is generally rather painful to see. Usually they can only manage an uncontrolled and jerky stab at the ball which can send it almost anywhere. In extreme cases they may not even be able to start their backswing! The only way of proving that the size of the golf hole has an effect would be to run a long term clinical trial, with one group only putting into a larger hole and a control group putting into the existing sized hole. My gut feeling is that slightly larger hole, say 5 or 6 " in diameter would reduce the incidence of the yips. For everyone who doesn't have the yips there would be the additional benefits of fewer lip-outs or horseshoes out of the hole!
		
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Rubbish - and that's according to your earlier post, not my opinion!

The general cause is known - after that it's purely a matter of what triggers the response within any individual.

The physiology is the same as, and most easily illustrated, with the balance function and a simple matter of raising the bar (that you are balancing on). For most people there are the natural reactions associated with simple fear ( issues start from a height that is perceived to represent danger) but for some the reactions become extreme and, to the external observer, irrational. The shared element being the inability of the mind to control the motor function you mention - another being that without increasing the risk (height in this case but consider an unchanged putt as well) but simply increasing the time the subject has to consider the consequence, the effect is increased ie it's the mind processing the information rather than the information that is  the underlying issue.


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Do we not use a bigger ball now than we did years ago? Or is it smaller? Not sure, but the ball has defo changed size. 

Did the hole change size when this happened? I'm just thinking, bigger ball should have led to bigger hole.



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The British golf ball used to be slightly smaller than the US one, at 1.62" in diameter compared with 1.68". About a 4% difference. The British ball was banned from the Open Championship in 1974 and made non-conforming for everyone in 1990. Unfortunately the hole size was not increase pro rata.  See:

http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/british-ball.htm


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## buggerlugs (Jul 26, 2015)

If I couldn't putt reasonably well or drive or hit irons to at least 18 handicap, I would give up golf and find another hobby. I wouldn't moan that the hole was too small or ask for the course to be altered so that I could it play better or ask for a 60 inch putter. If you make the hole bigger you may then play to 18 but 10 handicappers would play to scratch so where would your advantage be? A bigger handicap is the only advantage you need if you can't play golf !


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

buggerlugs said:



			If I couldn't putt reasonably well or drive or hit irons to at least 18 handicap, I would give up golf and find another hobby. I wouldn't moan that the hole was too small or ask for the course to be altered so that I could it play better or ask for a 60 inch putter. If you make the hole bigger you may then play to 18 but 10 handicappers would play to scratch so where would your advantage be? A bigger handicap is the only advantage you need if you can't play golf !
		
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Actually a slightly larger hole, say 5" diameter would make less difference than you might think. Maybe one less 3-putt or one more birdie per round. How many of your long putts even get within a foot of the hole? 

P.S. my handicap is currently 12 and was down to 10 a few months ago, so i don't seem to have any reason to give up golf by your definition!


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2015)

Changing the size of the hole WILL NOT STOP THE YIPS! It will just change the distance when those who suffer encounter them! 

So STOP TROLLING in a virtually unrelated thread!


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Changing the size of the hole WILL NOT STOP THE YIPS! It will just change the distance when those who suffer encounter them! 

So STOP TROLLING in a virtually unrelated thread!
		
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As I pointed out before, the only need for the long putter is as a crutch for players who have developed the yips, so they can still play the game and putt reasonably well, if you can get on with the things, which I can't!

Without a properly controlled clinical trial, you have no basis for what you are saying. Making the hole bigger may reduce the incidence of the yips, or may make no difference.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Actually a slightly larger hole, say 5" diameter would make less difference than you might think. Maybe one less 3-putt or one more birdie per round. How many of your long putts even get within a foot of the hole? 

P.S. my handicap is currently 12 and was down to 10 a few months ago, so i don't seem to have any reason to give up golf by your definition!
		
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Del, if you want to bange on about the same old things with the same flawed arguments, have the decency to do it in your own thread rather than hijacking something unrelated. That way I can choose to ignore it based on the Title.


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## c1973 (Jul 26, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			Yawn.....
		
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Whoosh!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			Making the hole bigger may reduce the incidence of the yips, *or may make no difference*.
		
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Has the penny finally dropped?


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			As I pointed out before, the only need for the long putter is as a crutch for players who have developed the yips, so they can still play the game and putt reasonably well, if you can get on with the things, which I can't!
		
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Complete Rubbish!

Bradley and others used long putters right from the start! 

Now stop trolling!


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Complete Rubbish!

Bradley and others used long putters right from the start! 

Now stop trolling!
		
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I think they were the exceptions rather than the rule, and we don't know if they used short putters at some point in their lives. Certainly Keegan Bradley was using a belly putter at College. More typical is Adam Scott who took to the broom handle putter because he was having problems using a short putter. He tried a brief return to a short putter, but soon reverted back to the broom handle. It will be interesting to see what he does next year.


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## Foxholer (Jul 26, 2015)

delc said:



			I think they were the exceptions rather than the rule, and we don't know if they used short putters at some point in their lives. Certainly Keegan Bradley was using a belly putter at College. More typical is Adam Scott who took to the broom handle putter because he was having problems using a short putter. He tried a brief return to a short putter, but soon reverted back to the broom handle. It will be interesting to see what he does next year.
		
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Post reported - Trolling!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 26, 2015)

Sorry DelC but this is becoming a regular and boring topic. The size of the hole makes no difference to the yips and I'd argue that if you increase it, there will still come a point when those with them, and those that are just poor at putting, will still miss. What then. Make it bigger still? As for speeding the game up, I don't buy this at all. Providing players don't take an age, and that applies to non-yippers it won't make a difference if you three putts or more. Slow play is caused by a myriad of reasons and putting is only one. 

Just let it go. We know you had the yips but the constant bleating about changing golf and various rules to suit is becoming a joke. The rules are there for everyone


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## pokerjoke (Jul 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry DelC but this is becoming a regular and boring topic. The size of the hole makes no difference to the yips and I'd argue that if you increase it, there will still come a point when those with them, and those that are just poor at putting, will still miss. What then. Make it bigger still? As for speeding the game up, I don't buy this at all. Providing players don't take an age, and that applies to non-yippers it won't make a difference if you three putts or more. Slow play is caused by a myriad of reasons and putting is only one. 

Just let it go. We know you had the yips but the constant bleating about changing golf and various rules to suit is becoming a joke. The rules are there for everyone
		
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No difference to you harping on about your quest for single figures or you chipping woes or your range sessions that are going so well but you cant take it to the course.

Or your phone call off Padraig or NGT which you obviously have not grasped the concept.

Or your 2 bad holes per round that always cost you.

So having a go at Del is just basically having a go at yourself.

Yes all these examples are you endless bleating.


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## Phil2511 (Jul 26, 2015)

Its quite simple folks, if a topic bores you then don't reply, if some of you hadn't been replying then the thread might be 2 pages instead of 5, so keep it nice please. Also the reported post function is for serious issues, not because you don't like a topic or are losing an argument. 

Have a nice evening.


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## WinBase (Jul 26, 2015)

lmao @ hole size argument - Sorry Del but suggesting making hole sizes bigger because some people have more trouble than others is quite ridiculous IMHO. its true it can be a difficult task (for all of us) but that's the game and not everyone is ever equal in skills both mental and physical, and someone will always say 'if only it was a few inches bigger' no matter what you do. you don't hear dart players suggesting a bigger board, snooker players wanting bigger pockets, cyclist wanting more downhill sections or hurdlers shorter hurdles because it will make their life easier, what would be the point and how could you compare improvements and scores over the years - it would make every record obsolete and get boring after a short period of time - GL


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## delc (Jul 26, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			So could I get a 10ft long putter and rest the shaft (firmly) against my shoulder so that it becomes a pivot point and putt like that perfectly legally?
		
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I believe that would still count as anchoring the club against the body, and I don't think such a club would be very practical!  As I suggested before, long putters should be limited to a maximum of 48" in length, same as the limit for all other clubs, so they can't be used to gain an advantage in measuring out club lengths! Most belly putters are only about 40-43" long btw.


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## Smiffy (Jul 27, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			No difference to you harping on about your quest for single figures or you chipping woes or your range sessions that are going so well but you cant take it to the course.

Or your phone call off Padraig or NGT which you obviously have not grasped the concept.

Or your 2 bad holes per round that always cost you.

So having a go at Del is just basically having a go at yourself.

Yes all these examples are you endless bleating.
		
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He has a post count to consider.


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