# NHS and waiting times.



## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2017)

had to go to hospital for a scan this morning. appointment was 9.30 so turned up 5 mins early.

got shown where to sit down by the receptionist. waiting half  an hour, then the Radiographer turns up at 10am. by this time there 6 people sat there. so asked what the hold up was as no one went in before me.

"we don't start till 10"

what the point in starting appointments at 9.30 then?

its little surprise the NHS is in crises with waiting times


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

The other annoyance is that they will give a group of people the same time. You turn up at 9.30 and discover 10 other people with the same time, due to see the same person. 

One of my biggest bugbears with the NHS is the complete lack of professionalism regarding timekeeping. Drives me nuts. Just because they may have all day, others don't. And breathe......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			had to go to hospital for a scan this morning. appointment was 9.30 so turned up 5 mins early.

got shown where to sit down by the receptionist. waiting half  an hour, then the Radiographer turns up at 10am. by this time there 6 people sat there. so asked what the hold up was as no one went in before me.

"we don't start till 10"

what the point in starting appointments at 9.30 then?

its little surprise the NHS is in crises with waiting times
		
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Do you know why they don't start until 10am?  And do you know what time to they finish?  And are their start and end times the same every day?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The other annoyance is that they will give a group of people the same time. You turn up at 9.30 and discover 10 other people with the same time, due to see the same person. 

One of my biggest bugbears with the NHS is the complete lack of professionalism regarding timekeeping. Drives me nuts. Just because they may have all day, others don't. And breathe......
		
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You honestly think that clinical and medical staff can't be bothered trying hard to keep to clinic timescales - you actually believe that?  And that they have all day?  Let me go pass your thoughts by my clinical nurse specialist wife - see what she says 

Yes - there are can be administrative issues that cause issues - but these do not in general impact the running of a clinic in the way you suggest.  Why on earth 10 patients would all be given the same timeslot with the one clinician I do not know.  Sounds a bit weird.  Mind you - if everyone given a clinical timeslot turned up on time - or indeed turned up at all - then maybe there would be fewer problems.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you know why they don't start until 10am?  And do you know what time to they finish?  And are their start and end times the same every day?
		
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no idea, seems strange to have appointments starting half an hour before, you expect a bit of a wait, turning on equipment etc. already 40 mins behind before they even start


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			no idea, seems strange to have appointments starting half an hour before, you expect a bit of a wait, turning on equipment etc. already 40 mins behind before they even start
		
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Tell you to turn up at 9:30am - you'll be there by 10am - pretty much regardless of the early morning traffic?  

If you were to aim to turn up 9:55am for a 10am appointment and you are delayed half an your then LordTs issue happens immediately.  Clinics know that it's crucial that the first appointments of the day happen on time - bit like the first group in the medal getting round in under 4 hours


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You honestly think that clinical and medical staff can't be bothered trying hard to keep to clinic timescales - you actually believe that?  And that they have all day?  Let me go pass your thoughts by my clinical nurse specialist wife - see what she says 

Yes - there are can be administrative issues that cause issues - but these do not in general impact the running of a clinic in the way you suggest.  Why on earth 10 patients would all be given the same timeslot with the one clinician I do not know.  Sounds a bit weird.  Mind you - if everyone given a clinical timeslot turned up on time - or indeed turned up at all - then maybe there would be fewer problems.
		
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TBH my only experience of NHS hospitals is a poor one.

I had my knee smashed in 7 places back in 95. i had to go into hosp to get pins put in and was due to be there for a couple of days.

 i was asked to be at the ward for 7am when i first went in as i was getting operated on that morning. No food or drink before etc. wasn't taken to surgery till 4pm.
 that night i was woken up my an old lady in the next bay calling for a nurse to take her to the toilet. she called and called. i could see a few nurses hanging around at a desk by the ward entrance.. not taking a blind bit of notice. i started ringing my buzzer as well still nothing. in the end i grabbed one of my crutches and chucked it in the middle of the ward floor. one of them then came over, i explained about the old woman, but it was too late she had peed herself.

anyway the next evening the consultant surgeon came to see me had a look, was pleased and said i was ok to go home the next morning. The next morning my then girlfriend came to pick me up, but was explained the ward didn't know i was ok to leave and would send a porter to wheelchair me out. 6 hours later a porter arrived and i was allowed out.

not surprised there is a bed crisis.


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## hovis (Feb 9, 2017)

i had an appointment at 8.30  the other day.  when i arrived she said "sorry but theres a 30 minute wait".    i said "ok,  what time was the first appointment? ''   she said 8.30.how is that even possible? 
the nhs is a nightmare and every dealing ive personally had has been terrible.    i had liver problems last year and had a 3 night stay.   i needed to go home for a rest!!!    it was dreadful.   I've also had 2 operations on the private and the difference is off this planet.    they even served me hot food!!!

i have to say that my daughter aged 3 is very clumsy and so has had 2 hospital visits.   both where excellent


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You honestly think that clinical and medical staff can't be bothered trying hard to keep to clinic timescales - you actually believe that?  And that they have all day?  Let me go pass your thoughts by my clinical nurse specialist wife - see what she says 

Yes - there are can be administrative issues that cause issues - but these do not in general impact the running of a clinic in the way you suggest.  Why on earth 10 patients would all be given the same timeslot with the one clinician I do not know.  Sounds a bit weird.  Mind you - if everyone given a clinical timeslot turned up on time - or indeed turned up at all - then maybe there would be fewer problems.
		
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Feel free to pass it on. That is my experience as a patient and as a parent of a patient. Endless appointments where doctors saunter in well past the first appointment time of the day. I reckon the average minimum wait time is 45 minutes, worst case 1.5 hrs. Sometimes you get lucky but rarely. A room full of patients all thinking they are the first appt and then finding out that actually you are not 9.30 but you could be any time from 9.30 - 11am. I've been there, got the badge. Time seems to have no concept, no apology or acknowledging the fact that the real time of my appointment bears no resemblence to the actual time I see someone. Sorry if you don't like that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

Not good - and yes - my wife's experience herself in the NHS this last 8 months has been mixed - and it has all been issues relating to admin and lack of joined up processes between departments.  She can see and is massively frustrated how superb medical and clinical care is sorely let down by poor admin and inter-department processes. Too many NHS admin staff view themselves as untouchable Gods - and to be honest too many should be shown the door as their carelessness and lax attitude contributes hugely to the issues we encounter - and the poor morale of so many clinical and medical staff.   But try and get rid of them...

As far as your own observation - having consulted my Mrs.  In her clinics it used to be that it was common for multiple patients to be given the same time to see the same consultant.  Except that isn't how it worked.  All patients were listed under the consultant but not all were ever to be seen by the consultant.  Prior to the clinic the consultant with all their team (registrars, nurse specialists etc) would look at the patient list and divvy up the patients.  

Also it is common for patients to be asked to turn up in advance of the actual appointment with the consultant, radiographer etc just in case there are any specific needs uncovered not previously know by the clinic team - and these can be addressed and dealt with prior to the time given.

The clinic staff can only work with patients at the speed of the consultant - and the time a consultant spends with any one patient is totally dependent upon the individual patient, patient symptoms; diagnosis, and amount of care and treatment planning required.

And finally my wife wonders why anyone would think that clinical and medical staff would want to stay working in a clinic until 8 o'clock and later (as my wife had to do regularly) when they actually are supposed to finish work at 6pm.  And they cannot just walk out of the door at 6pm - well they could - but being caring and responsible professionals they don't.  Perhaps worth noting that admin staff tend to disappear out the door at there end time - they don't stay with the medical and clinical teams - leaving these teams to make sure the admin teams know what has happened in the clinics the next day.

She also does not deny that there is some very poor or lax nursing these days - and that does really upset her as she has been a nurse all of her working life and patient care and attention to patients remains core to her work.  She started at the bottom (wiping them) as an SEN when she was 17 and has now been in the profession for almost 40yrs.  And she does tell how things have gone very badly downhill in the last 10yrs - and especially the last 5yrs (but that's another thread).

My wife is a breast cancer nurse specialist. She often in a clinic will find herself with a woman who has just been given a diagnosis of cancer.  She has a set amount of time to spend with this woman.  But the women are often very distressed and struggling to understand what they have been told and what will happen next.  My wife spends as much time as necessary - and that will often mean the appointment takes much longer than scheduled - and so the following appointment is delayed.  What is she to do?  Does she tell the woman - 'sorry - I have another appointment - I have to leave you now'.  No - she stays with the woman and tries to get the consultation to the point she  she feels the woman can leave.  That's clinic and medical care for you - they are dealing with human beings.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

Just a thought, not wanting to entirely bash the NHS but on timings they deserve it. Can you think of a job where it would be acceptable to be consistently late, no points for saying Southern Rail? Appt for the dentist, your bank, anything. Go to see a customer and arrive 50 minutes after the time, they wouldn't see you. That is a really easy one to solve. It is a cultural thing and the culture needs changing.


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## hovis (Feb 9, 2017)

the trouble is with the nhs is your not treated as a customer.   you HAVE  to pay national insurance so what incentive is there to offer a good service?  you cant refuse to pay


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2017)

When i broke it in the game, i was taken by ambulance to Harlow General, got to the hosp about 1pm. had it looked at by a Doc, then was  told i'd be taken to have it Xrayed. sat i a corridor till 9m until a porter came and got me and took me to Xray dept. where the Radiographer said, "you've been playing Rugby late" not really i replied Ive been here since 1pm.. he was a little embarrassed and said that's strange we hav't seen anyone since 4pm, so i don't know why they didn't bring you straight here. 

if i'd known is was simply waiting for a porter, i could have just dragged myself down there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

I will quote what I put in an edit to my earlier post

My wife is a breast cancer nurse specialist. She often in a clinic will find herself with a woman who has just been given a diagnosis of cancer.  She has a set amount of time to spend with this woman.  But the women are often very distressed and struggling to understand what they have been told and what will happen next.  My wife spends as much time as necessary - and that will often mean the appointment takes much longer than scheduled - and so the following appointment is delayed.  What is she to do?  Does she tell the woman - 'sorry - I have another appointment - I have to leave you now'.  No - she stays with the woman and tries to get the consultation to the point she  she feels the woman can leave.  That's clinic and medical care for you - they are dealing with human beings.

If you want more guaranteed scheduling of appointments - where more time is given for each patient - you can go private.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			When i broke it in the game, i was taken by ambulance to Harlow General, got to the hosp about 1pm. had it looked at by a Doc, then was  told i'd be taken to have it Xrayed. sat i a corridor till 9m until a porter came and got me and took me to Xray dept. where the Radiographer said, "you've been playing Rugby late" not really i replied Ive been here since 1pm.. he was a little embarrassed and said that's strange we hav't seen anyone since 4pm, so i don't know why they didn't bring you straight here. 

if i'd known is was simply waiting for a porter, i could have just dragged myself down there.
		
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Yup - exactly - lack of joined up processes - admin...


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## hovis (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will quote what I put in an edit to my earlier post

My wife is a breast cancer nurse specialist. She often in a clinic will find herself with a woman who has just been given a diagnosis of cancer.  She has a set amount of time to spend with this woman.  But the women are often very distressed and struggling to understand what they have been told and what will happen next.  My wife spends as much time as necessary - and that will often mean the appointment takes much longer than scheduled - and so the following appointment is delayed.  What is she to do?  Does she tell the woman - 'sorry - I have another appointment - I have to leave you now'.  No - she stays with the woman and tries to get the consultation to the point she  she feels the woman can leave.  That's clinic and medical care for you - they are dealing with human beings.

If you want more guaranteed scheduling of appointments - where more time is given for each patient - you can go private.
		
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so what happens if she needs to spend all day with someone?   the rest have to go home?   my job has called for me to inform someone that there loved one is dead.   i do my best to come across sincerely and with empathy and then get on with my job.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

hovis said:



			so what happens if she needs to spend all day with someone?   the rest have to go home?   my job has called for me to inform someone that there loved one is dead.   i do my best to come across sincerely and with empathy and then get on with my job.
		
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She doesn't spend all day.  If things look to be going on way too long, and the patient doesn't have someone with her - my wife will contact someone to come get her.

She's also got parking tickets because she's stayed with a patient in clinic past the time she had to move her car.  But that's what she does - and what many if not most of her experience and age group do.  And many thousands of these very experienced nurses are going to be retiring from the NHS soon.  My Mrs is finishing this year and she knows many nurse specialists in her hospital are doing the same i the next 5yrs.  

My wife worked with one of the most senior cancer surgeons in the country - whose wife was also a senior cancer radiologist.  They have both recently retired from the NHS even although they were committed to the NHS - stress and workload.  Their daughter is a senior house officer - and they wish she hadn't gone into the NHS as a doctor as the profession is so stressful and difficult these days and they wouldn't recommend it as a career to anyone.  Bad days - very difficult days ahead.

When my wife started nursing she knew lots of girls going into the profession - it was one of the things girls did.  It was a recognised and appreciated profession.  We were considering this just recently - of the friends of my 21yr old and 24yr old children - we know of NONE who have gone into nursing.  Not one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

Swingit - You are also using a very specific example, a specific clinic. The majority of us going to hospital and being left waiting are not in life or death situations where delays can be attributed to situations that you have described. 

Your wife has a tough job, I am not having a go at her.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When my wife started nursing she knew lots of girls going into the profession - it was one of the things girls did.  It was a recognised and appreciated profession.  We were considering this just recently - of the friends of my 21yr old and 24yr old children - we know of NONE who have gone into nursing.  Not one.
		
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To be fair, back in the day girls were directed towards becoming secretaries or nurses. That was the aspiration. Things are different now. Your point is a good one though, how does the NHS attract both men and women into nursing. It probably has to be more pro-active as we certainly need them.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 9, 2017)

The trouble with the NHS as I see it, everyone wants it perfect and now. No-one wants to pay more, staff dont want longer days, hospitals cant or wont employ more staff, there aren't the staff to fill vacancies, we have too many foreign workers int he NHS, not enough trained British staff and no one wants change.

I cant stand the creeping privatisation of the NHS, however it has to come into the 21st century and move with the times. Modern up to date practises have to be welcomed and this constant fighting and bickering from all sides has to stop, point scoring doesn't help anyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Swingit - You are also using a very specific example, a specific clinic. The majority of us going to hospital and being left waiting are not in life or death situations where delays can be attributed to situations that you have described. 

Your wife has a tough job, I am not having a go at her.
		
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I know that you are not.  No probs.  

And I know things are not the same everywhere - and she knows it.  But even in her unit she says how dreadful the communication between the different departments and teams can be.  But her worry is that that has very little if anything to do with the clinical and medical teams - it is the admin and management of the processes that make information flow between the teams and the management coordination and staffing of the teams.  

And what is happening?  The clinical and medical staff are breaking under the strain of trying to make things work - despite admin and management.  And their weariness, frustration and stress is what is driving so many out of these professions.  And many like my wife (and her consultant colleagues) who can retire at 55 and others at 60 are doing so - getting out.  And a lot of that very experienced nursing and doctors - who started in the mid-late 1970s - are going out of the door in the next 5 years - as we hear of dramatic falls in UK nurses entering training and significant constraints going to be applied to nurses from the EU and overseas as we leave the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2017)

Never mind the whatabootery, this graph shown the underlying problem in England and how it's going to get a lot worse.

View attachment 21903


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 9, 2017)

The NHS is broke and broken. Many inside it can see it, and many can see that management is part of the problem in terms of worthless jobs and lack of change. No money, no direction and it'll only get worse


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

Health Tourism vs Brexit Promise

Â£500m/year vs Â£350m/day

Lots of noise, anger and publicity for the former.  Amendment to Brexit bill proposed by Chuka Ummuna to look at how the Â£350m/day released by leaving the EU can be used to support the NHS fails.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...amendment-to-eu-withdrawal-bill-a7570336.html

Why might this matter?

The Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings has openly admitted that Brexit would never have won without all the Â£350 million for the NHS lies:

Here's exactly what Cummings said:

"Pundits and MPs kept saying â€˜why isnâ€™t Leave arguing about the economy and living standardsâ€™. They did not realise that for millions of people, Â£350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards â€“ thatâ€™s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without Â£350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way."

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

Maybe a trifle pedantic but the Â£350m figure was per week not per day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 10, 2017)

GP practice in Dorset with a 4 week appointment time lag have introduced a Â£145 fee for a same day 20 minute consultation.
Is that not an incentive for the practice to keep offering a 4 week delay?
Would you pay?


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## jdpjamesp (Feb 10, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			had to go to hospital for a scan this morning. appointment was 9.30 so turned up 5 mins early.

got shown where to sit down by the receptionist. waiting half  an hour, then the Radiographer turns up at 10am. by this time there 6 people sat there. so asked what the hold up was as no one went in before me.

"we don't start till 10"

what the point in starting appointments at 9.30 then?

its little surprise the NHS is in crises with waiting times
		
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I had an accident with my eye a few years back. I worked over an hour's train journey away from the hospital so would always ask for the first appointment of the day to see the ophthalmologist. The number of times I'd be sitting there for an hour before he came sauntering in with a large half-drunk cup of tea, joking with the nurses. Made me so angry. And as soon as you complain at the reception desk they don't care, and indicate to the abusive behaviour warning on the wall. And then I'd get it in the neck at work because I wasn't turning up until lunch time. Ridiculous.


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## jdpjamesp (Feb 10, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			When i broke it in the game, i was taken by ambulance to Harlow General, got to the hosp about 1pm. had it looked at by a Doc, then was  told i'd be taken to have it Xrayed. sat i a corridor till 9m until a porter came and got me and took me to Xray dept. where the Radiographer said, "you've been playing Rugby late" not really i replied Ive been here since 1pm.. he was a little embarrassed and said that's strange we hav't seen anyone since 4pm, so i don't know why they didn't bring you straight here. 

if i'd known is was simply waiting for a porter, i could have just dragged myself down there.
		
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I was in Dublin this week on business. Taxi driver had the radio on. They've got a similar crisis over there. They were talking to someone from the Macedonian health service. Apparently their service was about a week from collapse and they were desperate to get a solution so they tried something different. They brought in a lawyer, not a clinician, to run the gaff. First thing he did was to open up the various diaries, so radiology, surgery, physio etc to GPs. You went to your GP, who could specify what was needed in the computer, it then found a slot at the hospital where you could get all things seen to consecutively. Waiting times were slashed instantly and spare capacity was exposed to the tune of something like 30% I believe.


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## chrisd (Feb 10, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			Maybe a trifle pedantic but the Â£350m figure was per week not per day.
		
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Don't want to be even more pedantic but it wont be available until we stop sending huge bundles of cash to the EU


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Never mind the whatabootery, this graph shown the underlying problem in England and how it's going to get a lot worse.

View attachment 21903

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Does it?

I believe there needs to be a bit more to it than you've shown!!

As it is, it's only some numbers on X and Y co-ordinates and a squiggly line!!!

Presumably, the expanded description would actually show what it means! 

Oh and @Patrick....You are talking about the NHS in Scotland! By all reports, it's actually worse in England! Though getting folk to turn up early so that they can be seen on time could well be a cultural/local quirk! I may have simply been luck, but the several dealings I've had with the NHS (both personal and familial), both in A&E and with after-care, have been quite satisfactorily 'professional' , both from an administrative and clinical point-of-view! My only issue was with end phase of my late FiL's Cancer - where the lack of any information/prognosis/expectation was extremely frustrating, if slightly understandable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 10, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Oh and @Patrick....You are talking about the NHS in Scotland! By all reports, it's actually worse in England! Though getting folk to turn up early so that they can be seen on time could well be a cultural/local quirk! I may have simply been luck, but the several dealings I've had with the NHS (both personal and familial), both in A&E and with after-care, have been quite satisfactorily 'professional' , both from an administrative and clinical point-of-view! My only issue was with end phase of my late FiL's Cancer - where the lack of any information/prognosis/expectation was extremely frustrating, if slightly understandable.
		
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NHS Scotland is deemed to be the 'least worse' of the UK areas. {have you been listening to the News Where You Are ]
Seemingly it does 'joined up thinking' better that the other three.
My wife has just completed 6 months of cancer care including two operations.
Her treatment has been superb and the staff wonderful.

When she was having radiotherapy she was told to arrive at 8.15am. We were surprised that it was the same time as the other six patients.
They had to be checked in and examined by the nurse and treatment started at 9am. As we were first we had finished by 9.20.
Made sure we were first in each day so nae bother.
Whilst waiting I learned that one patient would be late due to road conditions [snow] on her 70 mile journey, another did not turn up for her appointment and a third patient's VRS lift failed to turn up, making her an hour late.

Somehow I got the feeling that this was normal and the unit well run.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			NHS Scotland is deemed to be the 'least worse' of the UK areas. {have you been listening to the News Where You Are ]
Seemingly it does 'joined up thinking' better that the other three.
My wife has just completed 6 months of cancer care including two operations.
Her treatment has been superb and the staff wonderful.
		
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Ditto for my good lady wife here in the hard pressed much maligned London area...

We couldn't be happier with all the support [and love] we've received from all the NHS staff we've met over the last year or so...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			Maybe a trifle pedantic but the Â£350m figure was per week not per day.
		
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No - not pedantic - correct to correct me...facts are important.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Don't want to be even more pedantic but it wont be available until we stop sending huge bundles of cash to the EU
		
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I guess this is why Chuka Umunna wanted it included as an amendment to the Art50 bill - force the government to consider how the Â£350m/week (thanks @MM) savings will be spent on the NHS.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Never mind the whatabootery, this graph shown the underlying problem in England and how it's going to get a lot worse.

View attachment 21903

Click to expand...

The predictions shown in the graph will only be borne out if immigration continues as forecast - and assuming the graph was generated late 2010(dotted line?) the growth predicted would be predicated upon the UK being in the EU.  So the graph is only true about future worsening problems in the NHS being a result of population growth if immigration continues as it is.  

But we know that immigration will be under control and so won't increase in this way - unless that is we *require *the current level of immigration.  But even if nett immigration were to be zero from today - the state of the NHS today is as it is - bust - and needs a lot of money to fix it.  I guess that's where the Â£350m/week will come in handy.


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## Leftie (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			the state of the NHS today is as it is - bust - and needs a lot of money to fix it.  I guess that's where the Â£350m/week will come in handy.
		
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You really pushing any credibility you may have had to the limit mate.  You know as well as most that the messages on the side of the bus *did not* say anything about spending Â£350m a week on the NHS.  If you mis-read it, then that's your problem.  There were clearly two messages - albeit maybe a tad misleading.  1) We send Â£350m a week to the EU. Generally not disputed (ignores any rebate).  2) Let's fund the NHS.  An admirable objective.  *Nowhere* have I seen the leavers say that all, or any, of that money will be spent on the NHS - although it would of course be most welcome.


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## Leftie (Feb 10, 2017)

And yes, I do have a vested interest in the waiting time fiasco for general surgery.  HID had a fairly urgent op at the end of October with a follow up op to follow.  We are still waiting for a date for this and the latest info from "admissions" is maybe late March or sometime in April.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I guess this is why Chuka Umunna wanted it included as an amendment to the Art50 bill - force the government to consider how the Â£350m/week (thanks @MM) savings will be spent on the NHS.
		
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But why should the Government be held to account for a statement they did not make?

That suggestion that extra funds *could *available to the NHS was made by the Leave campaign and it is not the Government's responsibility to fulfil any claims that may or may not have been made.

The duty of the Gov't is to now put into practice the decision made by the electorate. 

After all the official Gov't line at the referendum was to Remain.

Mr Umuna's motion is, like so much surrounding both Brexit and the NHS, just political grandstanding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

Leftie said:



			You really pushing any credibility you may have had to the limit mate.  You know as well as most that the messages on the side of the bus *did not* say anything about spending Â£350m a week on the NHS.  If you mis-read it, then that's your problem.  There were clearly two messages - albeit maybe a tad misleading.  1) We send Â£350m a week to the EU. Generally not disputed (ignores any rebate).  2) Let's fund the NHS.  An admirable objective.  *Nowhere* have I seen the leavers say that all, or any, of that money will be spent on the NHS - although it would of course be most welcome. 

Click to expand...

I'll repeat from a previous post as you must have missed it.

Why does Â£350m/week matter?

The Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings has openly admitted that Brexit would never have won without all the Â£350 million for the NHS lies:

Here's exactly what Cummings said:

_"Pundits and MPs kept saying â€˜why isnâ€™t Leave arguing about the economy and living standardsâ€™. They did not realise that for millions of people, Â£350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards â€“ thatâ€™s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without Â£350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way."_

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 10, 2017)

I don't know about appointment waiting times, all I knwo is my youngest suffers with Crohns desease, and had to go to the hossy yesterday morning. They kept her in all day, night and just being let go now. Yes she had a CT scan, but the gasto doctor only came round 4:30 pm today.....a full 31.5 hours after being told they would need to see her. How the heck is that efficient use of a hospital bed?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll repeat from a previous post as you must have missed it.

Why does Â£350m/week matter?

The Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings has openly admitted that Brexit would never have won without all the Â£350 million for the NHS lies:

Here's exactly what Cummings said:

_"Pundits and MPs kept saying â€˜why isnâ€™t Leave arguing about the economy and living standardsâ€™. They did not realise that for millions of people, Â£350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards â€“ thatâ€™s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without Â£350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way."_

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/

Click to expand...

By the date of the referendum the Â£350 million sum had been debated infanitem and everyone knew it was a gross and not net figure, to keep going on that people didn't understand that is just wrong.   It was not said that the money would all be spent on the NHS either, it was suggested we could use it to fund projects like the NHS so please can you stop using 'spin' 'to counter 'spin' please. It also amazes me how Remainers are always asking why we are not spending the money on the NHS now while anyone should understand that we are still paying it to the EU until we leave.


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## Leftie (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			By the date of the referendum the Â£350 million sum had been debated infanitem and everyone knew it was a gross and not net figure, to keep going on that people didn't understand that is just wrong.   *It was not said that the money would all be spent on the NHS either, it was suggested we could use it to fund projects like the NHS* so please can you stop using 'spin' 'to counter 'spin' please. It also amazes me how Remainers are always asking why we are not spending the money on the NHS now while anyone should understand that we are still paying it to the EU until we leave.
		
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Thank you SR.  Exactly my point that SILH chose to ignore.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

Well the posters did say - let's give the Â£350mil a week to the NHS instead of the EU. Everyone admitted that it was a lie despite people claiming they didn't actually say it ( despite it being on a massive big red bus !!! )


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the posters did say - let's give the Â£350mil a week to the NHS instead of the EU. Everyone admitted that it was a lie despite people claiming they didn't actually say it ( despite it being on a massive big red bus !!! )
		
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The posters said "lets fund our NHS instead"  which isn't exactly saying "Lets give Â£350 Million to the NHS instead.  I apreciate it can be a little misleading but that's what it said and I think everyone knew the true situation by the time they voted.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The posters said "lets fund our NHS instead"  which isn't exactly saying "Lets give Â£350 Million to the NHS instead.  I apreciate it can be a little misleading but that's what it said and I think everyone knew the true situation by the time they voted.
		
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:rofl: :rofl:

Everyone knew what it was targeting and no everyone didn't know the true situation - it was a true lie and fabrication and people sucked it up and believed and there is no doubt that some people voted leave because of it - it doesn't matter now but at least have the conviction to admit it was a lie and complete fabrication.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The predictions shown in the graph will only be borne out if immigration continues as forecast - and assuming the graph was generated late 2010(dotted line?) the growth predicted would be predicated upon the UK being in the EU.  So the graph is only true about future worsening problems in the NHS being a result of population growth if immigration continues as it is.  

But we know that immigration will be under control and so won't increase in this way - unless that is we *require *the current level of immigration.  But even if nett immigration were to be zero from today - the state of the NHS today is as it is - bust - and needs a lot of money to fix it.  I guess that's where the Â£350m/week will come in handy.
		
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Never mind the predictions, the damage has already been done and population growth is already too high due to the birthrate of people born outside the UK.    All the problems we are currently experiencing will be worse proportionally with population growth.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl: :rofl:

Everyone knew what it was targeting and no everyone didn't know the true situation - it was a true lie and fabrication and people sucked it up and believed and there is no doubt that some people voted leave because of it - it doesn't matter now but at least have the conviction to admit it was a lie and complete fabrication.
		
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I rather suspect the vast majority had decided which way to vote long before any campaigning had started... Believe this is borne out by how few appear to have changed their minds since the vote...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl: :rofl:

Everyone knew what it was targeting and no everyone didn't know the true situation - it was a true lie and fabrication and people sucked it up and believed and there is no doubt that some people voted leave because of it - it doesn't matter now but at least have the conviction to admit it was a lie and complete fabrication.
		
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Oh dear!   Oh deary me. you are being nasty and rude to me now, I'm going to get all Mardy and distressed 

Everyone did understand the  situation as it had been on every News report, Political Debate, News Paper headline, Political Debate and internet discussion for months.   You really do talk some tosh at times .   Oh and:

:rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear!   Oh deary me. you are being nasty and rude to me now, I'm going to get all Mardy and distressed 

Everyone did understand the  situation as it had been on every News report, Political Debate, News Paper headline, Political Debate and internet discussion for months.   You really do talk some tosh at times .   Oh and:

:rofl:
		
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Oh well at least Farage had the guts to admit it

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...ion-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/amp/

Oh and millions that voted didn't bother to watch political debates and the papers the emblazoned the headlines about the Â£350mil had them right up to the day 

It's extremely false to suggest "everyone understand the situation" - because they clearly didn't


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's extremely false to suggest "everyone understand the situation" - because they clearly didn't
		
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This is extremely presumptuous.

You have no idea if people on either side of the argument understood the situation. 

On the Remain side how many knew the truth of Osborne's claim that every family would be, I believe, Â£4100 worse off. I don't know any more than you do.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh well at least Farage had the guts to admit it

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...ion-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/amp/

*Oh and millions that voted didn't bother to watch political debates and the papers the emblazoned the headlines about the Â£350mil had them right up to the day *

It's extremely false to suggest "everyone understand the situation" - *because they clearly didn't*

Click to expand...

Did you ask them all?

Oh and! :rofl:


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

Article 50 part 20.

The man backs out of one thread and then gets everyone talking about it on another thread.

You can't make it up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you ask them all?

Oh and! :rofl:
		
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Did you ask them all when you stated that "Everyone did understand the situation"

When you have been on the news after the vote was announced saying they didn't really knownwhat they voted for and the consequences then I reckon my statement that everyone "didnt understand" the situation and that's clear certainly holds a lot more weight than yours

Unless you have something to back up "everyone did understand the situation" statement. 

I think it's clear to see why SILH and Delc have started posting why they do when they attempt to engage in any sort of conversation with you.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you ask them all when you stated that "Everyone did understand the situation"

When you have been on the news after the vote was announced saying they didn't really what they vote and the consequences then I reckon my statement that everyone "didnt understand" the situation and that's clear certainly holds a lot more weight than yours

Unless you have something to back up "everyone did understand the situation" statement. 

I think it's clear to see why SILH and Delc have started posting why they do when they attempt to engage in any sort of conversation with you.
		
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You wrote millions now it's a couple questioned on the news, did they have anything to say on NHS waiting times.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

MetalMickie said:



			This is extremely presumptuous.

You have no idea if people on either side of the argument understood the situation. 

On the Remain side how many knew the truth of Osborne's claim that every family would be, I believe, Â£4100 worse off. I don't know any more than you do.
		
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Anymore presumptuous than the statements from SR ? 

I have no about any Â£4100 worse off? I'm guessing I missed that bus or slogan. 

You are right we don't know anymore than the next person 

So it's not right when some suggest that everyone knew the situation and that everyone had already made their mind up - in some way attempt to justify the clear blatant false promise and lie of the Â£350mil 

Even if some on here won't admit it - at least Farage has the fibre to admit it was false


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			You wrote millions now it's a couple questioned on the news, did they have anything to say on NHS waiting times.
		
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I wrote millions didn't watch the political debates - 30 plus million voted in the Referendum- nowhere near that watched the debates. Maybe read what I wrote a bit more carefully


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wrote millions didn't watch the political debates - 30 plus million voted in the Referendum- nowhere near that watched the debates. Maybe read what I wrote a bit more carefully
		
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And I'm sure the millions who voted remain didn't follow any debates on the matter so it seems there were people who voted on both sides that didn't have a clue what was going on.

There might however, been a few from both sides who were/are interested enough to follow the debate. 

Or or are you inferring that because some or millions (don't have proof of either) of leavers didn't follow the debate so hadn't a clue and should never have voted.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anymore presumptuous than the statements from SR ? 

I have no about any Â£4100 worse off? I'm guessing I missed that bus or slogan. 

You are right we don't know anymore than the next person 

So it's not right when some suggest that everyone knew the situation and that everyone had already made their mind up - in some way attempt to justify the clear blatant false promise and lie of the Â£350mil 

Even if some on here won't admit it - at least Farage has the fibre to admit it was false
		
Click to expand...

And who said it wasn't false?   There you go throwing about false accusations again. I stated clearly it was a gross and not a net figure.

My point to you was that the slogan didnt say the money would be all given to the NHS, I believe I am correct in saying that unless you can point to some clear evidence otherwise.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wrote millions didn't watch the political debates - 30 plus million voted in the Referendum- nowhere near that watched the debates. Maybe read what I wrote a bit more carefully
		
Click to expand...

I ask you again.  Have you asked them all?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anymore presumptuous than the statements from SR ? 

I have no about any Â£4100 worse off? I'm guessing I missed that bus or slogan. 

You are right we don't know anymore than the next person 

So it's not right when some suggest that everyone knew the situation and that everyone had already made their mind up - in some way attempt to justify the clear blatant false promise and lie of the Â£350mil 

Even if some on here won't admit it - at least Farage has the fibre to admit it was false
		
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But there was no *promise.*

There could not be as the statement was made by the Leave campaign, which was no more than that, a campaign. Not a political party or government and, thus, not in a position to dictate any future Government spending. 

And Osborne's claim that every family would be Â£4300 pa worse off was widely reported at the time and did nothing to help those of us that were active Remain supporters as we were asked to substantiate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			And I'm sure the millions who voted remain didn't follow any debates on the matter so it seems there were people who voted on both sides that didn't have a clue what was going on.

There might however, been a few from both sides who were/are interested enough to follow the debate. 

Or or are you inferring that because some or millions (don't have proof of either) of leavers didn't follow the debate so hadn't a clue and should never have voted.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't inferring anything - 

Someone claimed that "everyone knew the situation" and used the political debates as some proof of that when ite quite clearly a false presumptious statement 

People will have been sucked in by the claims of Â£350 mil a week to the NHS when it was clearly a lie 

Right now imo they should ensure that a decent amount that isn't paid to the EU when the UK is indeed paid to the NHS - it was a pledge emblazoned everywhere and when we leave the EU I expect the NHS to feel the monetary benefit of that


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right now imo they should ensure that a decent amount that isn't paid to the EU when the UK is indeed paid to the NHS - it was a pledge emblazoned everywhere and when we leave the EU I expect the NHS to feel the monetary benefit of that
		
Click to expand...

And there is a fair chance that some of the money available will. I don't really understand why some seem to be inferring that none of the money available won't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			By the date of the referendum the Â£350 million sum had been debated infanitem and everyone knew it was a gross and not net figure, to keep going on that people didn't understand that is just wrong.   It was not said that the money would all be spent on the NHS either, it was suggested we could use it to fund projects like the NHS so please can you stop using 'spin' 'to counter 'spin' please. It also amazes me how Remainers are always asking why we are not spending the money on the NHS now while anyone should understand that we are still paying it to the EU until we leave.
		
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They clearly didn't - that is the point the Leave Director is making.  If you read his words it is very clear.  Endlessly the Leave Campaign were asked to change the message.  They were asked to make it very clear to the electorate EXACTLY what the Â£350m/week meant and if it WASN'T meant for the NHS they should have corrected the public's misunderstanding. .  But they didn't - and Cumming makes it very clear exactly why they knew it was a winner.

It was a downright and blatant lie that Leave knew was a lie - but they stuck with it because they knew it could win them the vote,  and they were right.  Or are you suggesting that Cummings has got it wrong?

In any case - where's the Â£267/week for the NHS?


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In any case - where's the Â£267/week for the NHS?
		
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Not sure that amount would help much but knowing the way the NHS operate even that small amount will be wasted.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't inferring anything - 

Someone claimed that "everyone knew the situation" and used the political debates as some proof of that when ite quite clearly a false presumptious statement 

People will have been sucked in by the claims of Â£350 mil a week to the NHS when it was clearly a lie 

Right now imo they should ensure that a decent amount that isn't paid to the EU when the UK is indeed paid to the NHS - it was a pledge emblazoned everywhere and when we leave the EU I expect the NHS to feel the monetary benefit of that
		
Click to expand...

You make the mistake that has been made by so many who didn't get their way in the referendum; that those that voted Leave didn't understand or were too stupid or ignorant to understand what the issue was about.  That thinking is naive and elitist, the vast majority were quite clear on the issues for both sides of the debate.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2017)

Just had another look at the leave campaign bus and connot see where it says Â£350 million a week would go to the NHS.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You make the mistake that has been made by so many who didn't get their way in the referendum; that those that voted Leave didn't understand or were too stupid or ignorant to understand what the issue was about.  That thinking is naive and elitist, *the vast majority were quite clear on the issues for both sides of the debate.*

Click to expand...

How do you know that ? 

I haven't called anyone too stupid so please do not twist anything being said to fit your agenda


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They clearly didn't - that is the point the Leave Director is making.  If you read his words it is very clear.  Endlessly the Leave Campaign were asked to change the message.  They were asked to make it very clear to the electorate EXACTLY what the Â£350m/week meant and if it WASN'T meant for the NHS they should have corrected the public's misunderstanding. .  But they didn't - and Cumming makes it very clear exactly why they knew it was a winner.

It was a downright and blatant lie that Leave knew was a lie - but they stuck with it because they knew it could win them the vote,  and they were right.  Or are you suggesting that Cummings has got it wrong?

In any case - where's the Â£267/week for the NHS?
		
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As pointed out you have the sum a little wrong.  Regarding where it is, it's still being paid to the EU as our subscription to be in the club.  Surely you know that?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know that ? 

I haven't called anyone too stupid so please do not twist anything being said to fit your agenda
		
Click to expand...

Because I dont consider the Public to be stupid and believe the vast majority knew exactly what they were voting for.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

Why are we continuing to discuss this?

Â£267 million or Â£350m per week, it makes no difference. People are asking the Government to deliver on a "promise" they didn't make, why is that so hard to understand?


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## ger147 (Feb 10, 2017)

Is this not the NHS waiting times thread???


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Because I dont consider the Public to be stupid and believe the vast majority knew exactly what they were voting for.
		
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So you don't actually know then that the vast majority were quite clear on the issues then - and it's nothing to do with people's intelligence why they might not be clear - more down to the lies and twists and clear mess than both sides of the campaign were in.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 10, 2017)

Guys please

This has been done to death on other threads,

I know it is all interlinked, but can we get away from Brexit discussions on this thread and back to the NHS and waiting times

Thank you


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2017)

ger147 said:



			Is this not the NHS waiting times thread???
		
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I was specifically referring to the debate that has developed regarding post-Brexit expenditure which is deflecting away from the original point on waiting times.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			And there is a fair chance that some of the money available will. I don't really understand why some seem to be inferring that none of the money available won't.
		
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Even with extra money available to the NHS I very much doubt much of it will flood down to the ground level - expect a great deal to be swallowed up somewhere.

Still would like to see some sort of medical insurance scheme brought in


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Even with extra money available to the NHS I very much doubt much of it will flood down to the ground level - expect a great deal to be swallowed up somewhere.

Still would like to see some sort of medical insurance scheme brought in
		
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Not a fan.  As someone who is a member of the zipper club and suffered a major back accident it would cost a fortune for me judging on the cost of holiday insurance.  How would you deal with pre existing conditions.  There is a strong case for more money but like most public sector organisations it would under the present scheme be a massive waste of money.  The place is riddled with poor management at all disciplines and the fact it was devolved, like politics, it has ended up costing huge amounts in wage and admin costs.

I remember when they got rid of the Women's sections of the armed forces, there was an automatic saving in wages as they no longer need a separate top tear of management and senior officers.

If they did the same and got politics and the NHS back under one umbrella there would be massive savings.


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2017)

BUMP

and organisation. Shocking. My wife had to go to A+E for a scan after visiting the docs yesterday morning. The Doc's rang ahead and sent a note. We report to A+E. No one knew a thing about it. It was rammed too. Not a good start. Thing is this has been done to death so I won't add but you know we watched all the bad bits right in front of our eyes for 4 hours happen in AAU. OMG it's a disgrace!. BUT. Then clip[ clop clip clop down the corridor came SUPER DOC!!!!! Within 30 minutes the staff had been scattered throughout the department and patients began to leave!!!! I overheard him speaking to the scan dept at 5pm and he basically took no poo from them, "well that's a problem for you and XYX Thank you!" I said to the wife "I think that was about you, and judging by what he said and how he said it you'll be sorted in no more than 10 minutes" "how do you know?" "If I got a call like that I'd be here in 10 minutes" and sure enough, whooosh the wife was whisked away for her scan. This bloke was awesome. He turned a mess of a department around in 1 hour. Everyone was working and sorting patients. He questioned everything that had been done and was to be done and got the sludge moving. He should be be in every department in every hospital in every country. We were out in 1 hour! See it can be done. It was pityfull to watch until this unflappable rock of a man appeared. I wish I'd got his name now. Oh and one other thing the girl on the admin desk was awesome too. The others were a disgrace.


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			BUMP

and organisation. Shocking. My wife had to go to A+E for a scan after visiting the docs yesterday morning. The Doc's rang ahead and sent a note. We report to A+E. No one knew a thing about it. It was rammed too. Not a good start. Thing is this has been done to death so I won't add but you know we watched all the bad bits right in front of our eyes for 4 hours happen in AAU. OMG it's a disgrace!. BUT. Then clip[ clop clip clop down the corridor came SUPER DOC!!!!! Within 30 minutes the staff had been scattered throughout the department and patients began to leave!!!! I overheard him speaking to the scan dept at 5pm and he basically took no poo from them, "well that's a problem for you and XYX Thank you!" I said to the wife "I think that was about you, and judging by what he said and how he said it you'll be sorted in no more than 10 minutes" "how do you know?" "If I got a call like that I'd be here in 10 minutes" and sure enough, whooosh the wife was whisked away for her scan. This bloke was awesome. He turned a mess of a department around in 1 hour. Everyone was working and sorting patients. He questioned everything that had been done and was to be done and got the sludge moving. He should be be in every department in every hospital in every country. We were out in 1 hour! See it can be done. It was pityfull to watch until this unflappable rock of a man appeared. I wish I'd got his name now. Oh and one other thing the girl on the admin desk was awesome too. The others were a disgrace.
		
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I wonder how many risks were taken in the accuracy of triaging or properly examining patients to allow this remarkable speed up of services?


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## Rooter (Feb 28, 2017)

Well i just got back from the hospital, my 4 year old has glue ear. We had a full hearing test, met and talked to the consultant, discussed the operation she is going to have (grommets again) and we should get a date for within 6 weeks. All of that we were in and out in 45 minutes.

You will not hear me complain about the NHS.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 28, 2017)

Been there Rooter. My lad needed two lots to sort it out. Got there in the end.

Interesting what CF saw, I'm sure it mirrors a lot of experiences. Good practice and decent management is often what is needed and it is there already in many places. In other places it just needs a kick up the backside.


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Even with extra money available to the NHS I very much doubt much of it will flood down to the ground level - expect a great deal to be swallowed up somewhere.

Still would like to see some sort of medical insurance scheme brought in
		
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This is the major issue with the NHS. It would be a complete waste of time to give the NHS an extra Â£350m per day/week/month/year as, ultimately, it would be wasted and wouldn't get down to the people who need it. The issues are down to complete mismanagement and a bloated organisation that needs stripping back to the bare bones. I don't mean by reducing medical positions either. Approximately 50% of all staff in the NHS are not clinically trained and I read that there are 2 managers for every nurse. That's the issue. By giving them even more money will not improve the service it will just speed up the wastage.

I have friends who work in the admin side of the NHS and even they admit it's embarrassing. They work in teams that no one really knows what they're doing so they just plod along, waiting until 4:30pm and then leaving. One got so bored that she actually went to find a direct manager to see what the plans were for the department and was told that there wasn't really anyone there who was managing them so just to do the best they can. Another favourite is to actively seek out redundancy as it's almost certain that you'll be hired back within a month or so having had a decent payout.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2017)

road2ruin said:



			This is the major issue with the NHS. It would be a complete waste of time to give the NHS an extra Â£350m per day/week/month/year as, ultimately, it would be wasted and wouldn't get down to the people who need it. The issues are down to complete mismanagement and a bloated organisation that needs stripping back to the bare bones. I don't mean by reducing medical positions either. Approximately 50% of all staff in the NHS are not clinically trained and I read that there are 2 managers for every nurse. That's the issue. By giving them even more money will not improve the service it will just speed up the wastage.

I have friends who work in the admin side of the NHS and even they admit it's embarrassing. *They work in teams that no one really knows what they're doing so they just plod along, waiting until 4:30pm and then leaving.* One got so bored that she actually went to find a direct manager to see what the plans were for the department and was told that there wasn't really anyone there who was managing them so just to do the best they can. Another favourite is to actively seek out redundancy as it's almost certain that you'll be hired back within a month or so having had a decent payout.
		
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And yet from the nursing/clinical/medical side of things - the lack of joined up management and administration between teams as a patient goes through their treatment journey is usually what causes problems for patients.  But the nursing/clinical/medical teams are not themselves free of responsibility for this.  It seems to me that there is not *effective *governance and monitoring around the medical teams to ensure that these teams know what they must do - *and that they do it.*.  

It is very easy for the medical and clinical teams to cite 'workload' as an impediment to ensuring they meet governance requirements - and workload is certainly an issue - but if governance is not being pro-actively imposed and monitored by others, then the good work of the medical and clinical teams is undone by their own actions - or lack of them - on the governance side.


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## Dellboy (Feb 28, 2017)

Got a problem with my ribs, very painful somedays, other days its fine, called Costochondritis.

Doctor has given me some strong pain killers but say I will need injections into the chest area, as many as 5-6 of them.

So he gave me a letter and number to call and make an appointment he also told me there could be a wait for the treatment. 

Just got off the phone, 4:30 next Monday, could have had this Friday !!

Top service :thup: 

On the down side, the lady did tell me the injections do hurt and no golf for 10 days


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## DCB (Feb 28, 2017)

Had to take my wife to A&E late on Friday night after an accident in the house. Pitched up just on midnight and it was a busy place. 6 Nations weekend as well, so, some extra traffic from the supporters enjoying their Friday night out. I was amazed at how quickly they did triage and then prioritised things from there. We were out in little over two hours with xrays, wound cleaned and dressed and anti tetanus  jab to boot. 

What did amaze me was the number of people who really didn't need to be there and were subsequently discharged very quickly.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 28, 2017)

DCB said:



			What did amaze me was the number of people who really didn't need to be there and were subsequently discharged very quickly.
		
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Well done that hospital. More please.


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2017)

road2ruin said:



			I read that there are 2 managers for every nurse. That's the issue.
		
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In 2014 the NHS employed 377,191 qualified nursing staff and 37,078 managers. 

So your issue was in fact a steaming pile of you know what.

It's so tiresome when you read people who don't or haven't worked in the NHS bleating on about more clinicians and less admin/management side are needed. Quite frankly, you have not got a clue what you are talking about.


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			In 2014 the NHS employed 377,191 qualified nursing staff and 37,078 managers. 

So your issue was in fact a steaming pile of you know what.

It's so tiresome when you read people who don't or haven't worked in the NHS bleating on about more clinicians and less admin/management side are needed. Quite frankly, you have not got a clue what you are talking about.
		
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Maybe not with regards the x managers to the y medical staff however I do know people in the admin side and they all agree it's a joke.


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2017)

road2ruin said:



			Maybe not with regards the x managers to the y medical staff however I do know people in the admin side and they all agree it's a joke.
		
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Maybe they work in a poorly run department/Trust, but the necessity for the admin stuff cannot be overstated especially in a time of intense financial pressure. Clinicians are NOT good at running services, they need dedicated staff to do this for them and given the sheer size of the NHS this means a lot of those staff.


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## Crazyface (Mar 1, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Been there Rooter. My lad needed two lots to sort it out. Got there in the end.

Interesting what CF saw, I'm sure it mirrors a lot of experiences. Good practice and decent management is often what is needed and it is there already in many places. In other places it just needs a kick up the backside.
		
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You betcha boots!!!! 

PS If you want to see a hospital that works Salford Royal was excellent! 
(Just for balance)


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## Crazyface (Mar 1, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			In 2014 the NHS employed 377,191 qualified nursing staff and 37,078 managers. 

So your issue was in fact a steaming pile of you know what.

It's so tiresome when you read people who don't or haven't worked in the NHS bleating on about more clinicians and less admin/management side are needed. Quite frankly, you have not got a clue what you are talking about.
		
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I went for a job last year at our local hospital and was directed to where my interview was. I ended up walking through the largest open plan office I have ever seen in my life!!!!!!!


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## Kellfire (Mar 1, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			I went for a job last year at our local hospital and was directed to where my interview was. I ended up walking through the largest open plan office I have ever seen in my life!!!!!!!
		
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Your point being? Teams do a lot of interlinked work in the NHS, nature of the beast. It makes sense to have them working in an environment that promotes interaction. I work in an open plan office of 24 and it's essential for our communication.


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## Nickrat (Mar 1, 2017)

They do sometimes run "clinics" at a certain time and see patients on a first come first served basis. I think the problem with this is that it never states that on your appointment letter which usually gives you a specific date and time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Maybe they work in a poorly run department/Trust, but the necessity for the admin stuff cannot be overstated especially in a time of intense financial pressure. *Clinicians are NOT good at running services, they need dedicated staff to do this for them *and given the sheer size of the NHS this means a lot of those staff.
		
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...though I do perceive that some of the dedicated staff are not quite so...and in truth are probably not hard enough on the clinicians to ensure that they do what they are supposed to do - and support them doing it - not just criticise them when they don't.  

I appreciate that it is probably difficult to do a quality assurance job on clinicians - and most probably especially consultants - but there is no gain without pain.  In the face of significant 'push back' it's very easy to give up and say '_hell mend 'em'_ but that way just ends in tears (for the staff and the patients)


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## Kellfire (Mar 1, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...though I do perceive that some of the dedicated staff are not quite so...and in truth are probably not hard enough on the clinicians to ensure that they do what they are supposed to do - and support them doing it - not just criticise them when they don't.  

I appreciate that it is probably difficult to do a quality assurance job on clinicians - and most probably especially consultants - but there is no gain without pain.  In the face of significant 'push back' it's very easy to give up and say '_hell mend 'em'_ but that way just ends in tears (for the staff and the patients)
		
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In my experience, consultants are incredibly stubborn and often won't listen to anything but their peers or their business managers when it comes to guidance on how best to run clinics, document their work and so on. Part of my job is to engage with consultants and their director managers and it is finally starting to show some benefit for my department as they start to open their eyes to new thinking because of the tough financial situation. Previously, when money wasn't such an issue, they were even more insular.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2017)

Nickrat said:



			They do sometimes run "clinics" at a certain time and see patients on a first come first served basis. I think the problem with this is that it never states that on your appointment letter which usually gives you a specific date and time.
		
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Well - if folk would turn up on time for their appointments there would be no issue.  But appointments booking teams know that that just isn't the case with our dear 'every more so' entitled and selfish society - a society in which too many think that  the NHS should bend to their own individual needs - without consideration of the clinical teams and other patients,.


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## Crazyface (Mar 2, 2017)

Wahey. I'll be there again in 4 hours. My dad's just been taken in. Woe betide the slacks this time!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			In my experience, consultants are incredibly stubborn and often won't listen to anything but their peers or their business managers when it comes to guidance on how best to run clinics, document their work and so on. Part of my job is to engage with consultants and their director managers and it is finally starting to show some benefit for my department as they start to open their eyes to new thinking because of the tough financial situation. Previously, when money wasn't such an issue, they were even more insular.
		
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Exactly.  If the consultants give the lead, then the rest of the teams will likely follow - because the teams know that if the consultants can find the time and have the understanding of the importance (not just benefit) of doing it - then they all can.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			Wahey. I'll be there again in 4 hours. My dad's just been taken in. Woe betide the slacks this time!
		
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Aside from this thread, hope it isn't too serious


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## Crazyface (Mar 3, 2017)

Thanks

Pneumonia, apparently. He's comfortable and getting better now he's on antibiotics. I had to have a word with the staff last night as he hadn't had his insulin injection that morning, despite the fact he'd informed them of it when he arrived there at 9am. The nurse I spoke to told me that she had chased the pharmacy and was waiting for his charts or summat and there was nothing else she could do. There was the usual gathering of around 6 staff around the desk. How I didn't explode I do not know. I said that there was, and she could pop down there and get them, as this was now 6 hours (I had pointed this out to the previous place he was in at 2pm and they hadn't been informed). "Shall I go and get it, as I assure you I will come back with it?". They despatched a lad to go and get it.  They have no idea what it is to work in the real world. If I'd have said that to most of my previous bosses, they wouldn't have been very happy to say the least. I know lets just shrug shoulders and blame someone else. rather than get the job done!


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