# Women's safety



## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Being a husband, and the father of an 18yo daughter, I've been thinking a lot about this in the last few days.

We've been discussing it, and I have to say I never realised what a massive worry this is and how it shapes women's life on a daily basis. Both my wife and daughter have said that every single journey they make, either on public transport or walking, they plan their route to be as safe as possible, and are constantly on the lookout for danger.

My daughter told me she always walks with her house keys in her hand in order to protect herself should anything happen.

I'm a bit ashamed to admit I never realised what a massive everyday issue this is for women. If some good has come out of recent horrible events, it's the national conversation that has been going on about this issue. I'm sure a lot of guys have had their eyes opened.

Small things can help, so I've went out and bought them personal alarms which emit a 140db alarm. you attach them to a key ring, they are only a fiver each. If it gives them a bit more protection and peace of mind, it's money well spent.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

I wouldn't say it shapes my life as such as that would, for me, be allowing the fear to escalate and the bad guys to win. But, it is indeed a part of every day life in terms of decision-making and choices which I've always accepted is the way it is - it almost just is what it is and recent events have made me think "yep, that's every day life for women". It is possibly every day life (if not worse) for women all over the world and I'm not sure what the answer is as there will always be bad guys (and girls). I think the main factor is that generally men are stronger than women plus rape (usually) being a man on a woman and not woman on woman or woman on man. Stature-wise I'm small but would fancy my chances of fighting off most women but not most men.

Not sure I've put that well nor really what I'm trying to say - it's being sensible and choosing wisely rather than taking unneccessary chances...it's not about being scared every time I leave the house though.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2021)

Disappointed in the attuide of a lot of men about the whole situation

Quick to condemn but when comes to change or different ways of thinking things to provoke debate and reaction the same out comments come

Men feel unsafe too!!
Not all men are dangerous!!
Women can commit crimes!!

As always valid points get lost in the outrage


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2021)

Ave said it for years, there is a part of society that is sick. This week womens safety is in the spotlight, and rightly so. We have had BLM due to racism, and rightly so. But the list goes on and on. How many children have been abused in care homes. Priests abusing children. Actresses being abused in exchange for roles. Politicians abusing kids. Saville, Maxwell, Glitter, Wests, Epstein, etc etc etc.
On a day that is a anniversary of the shocking events of happened at Dunblane, there is still a part of society that has no respect for people of any colour, age or sex.


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## RichA (Mar 13, 2021)

Reading a lot of this forum's content over the last couple of days, it's easy to imagine nothing has changed since the 80s.
Like many, I think, I'm only using the forum so much at the moment because I've got too much time on my hands. I pretty much had enough of it after reading a lot of the comments yesterday.
Refreshing this morning to read this thread and also to realise that there is actually a woman contributing. I feel embarrassed that Amanda probably read all the misogynistic crap that appeared over the last couple of days, but I guess you're used to it. What a dismal thing to have to accept as a fact of life.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Reading a lot of this forum's content over the last couple of days, it's easy to imagine nothing has changed since the 80s.
Like many, I think, I'm only using the forum so much at the moment because I've got too much time on my hands. I pretty much had enough of it after reading a lot of the comments yesterday.
Refreshing this morning to read this thread and also to realise that there is actually a woman contributing. I feel embarrassed that Amanda probably read all the misogynistic crap that appeared over the last couple of days, but I guess you're used to it. What a dismal thing to have to accept as a fact of life.
		
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Agreed. Some of the comments yesterday about Page 3 were pathetic.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Reading a lot of this forum's content over the last couple of days, it's easy to imagine nothing has changed since the 80s.
Like many, I think, I'm only using the forum so much at the moment because I've got too much time on my hands. I pretty much had enough of it after reading a lot of the comments yesterday.
Refreshing this morning to read this thread and also to realise that there is actually a woman contributing. I feel embarrassed that Amanda *probably read all the misogynistic crap that appeared over the last couple of days*, but I guess you're used to it. What a dismal thing to have to accept as a fact of life.
		
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I absolutely agree with women wanting to feel support and would support initiatives to help this - whether lighting, CCTV, increased police presence, coming down very hard on those that abuse women and any men who are misognyst in actions and attitude. 

Not that i have read everything but where exactly has all this misogyny been stated? Misogyny is defined as a "hatred of women". Please enlighten us and we can shame those with this attitude. What i have seen are a lot of comments against tagging all men with misogynistic or any other traits. That I disgree with - you do not label a whole category, class, sex or any other group of humans with a tag of a small minority of said group. Go and call all Muslims as terrorists due to the warped actions of a very small minority of people who abusue that religion and see how that goes?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Disappointed in the attuide of a lot of men about the whole situation

Quick to condemn but when comes to change or different ways of thinking things to provoke debate and reaction the same out comments come

Men feel unsafe too!!
Not all men are dangerous!!
Women can commit crimes!!

As always valid points get lost in the outrage
		
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OK, suggest some solutions?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Agreed. Some of the comments yesterday about Page 3 were pathetic.
		
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Did you ever look at page 3? Or any other images of topless/naked women?


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Did you ever look at page 3? Or any other images of topless/naked women?
		
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Of course I have seen page 3. Everyone has. Doesn't mean to say I approve of it. I can honestly say I have never bought a paper with topless pictures on page 3. Even when I was a daft teenager I knew it was wrong and demeaning.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Of course I have seen page 3. Everyone has. Doesn't mean to say I approve of it. I can honestly say I have never bought a paper with topless pictures on page 3. Even when I was a daft teenager I knew it was wrong and demeaning.
		
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Do you think the models were forced into it or did it by choice. Many of them became very rich and famous. Who is exploiting who?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Of course I have seen page 3. Everyone has. Doesn't mean to say I approve of it. I can honestly say I have never bought a paper with topless pictures on page 3. Even when I was a daft teenager I knew it was wrong and demeaning.
		
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so you are happy to do things that you disaprove of?


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			so you are happy to do things that you disaprove of?
		
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no idea what you are going on about.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Do you think the models were forced into it or did it by choice. Many of them became very rich and famous. Who is exploiting who?
		
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and what about the impact on the 99.9% of women who weren't on page 3?

If you portray women as sex objects on a daily basis, then you shouldn't be surprised when some men treat them as sex objects in real life. or don't you think there is a correlation?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			and what about the impact on the 99.9% of women who weren't on page 3?

If you portray women as sex objects on a daily basis, then you shouldn't be surprised when some men treat them as sex objects in real life. or don't you think there is a correlation?
		
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What about the women that go to clubs/pubs in the skimpiest of outfits seeking lots of male attention?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			no idea what you are going on about.
		
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read your respnse. You looked at page 3 but knew it was wrong and demeaning. Interseting to see how feel about many of the classic works of art featuring naked images women? Should they be banished like the statues, road names, pub names etc - or are they ok unlike similar images of woen in other formats?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 13, 2021)

For a well functioning society there has to be a collective responsibility...
Without that, remaining in the 'dark ages' is the likely outcome...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

I was shocked that over 120 women/girls have been murdered since the start of the year 

There will always be the sick twisted people who prey on vunerable people and it appears common that the sick individuals target females - I suspect it’s a superiority belief as well as being physically stronger 

It’s also worth remembering it’s more likely that you are attacked by someone you know as opposed to a complete stranger 

When it comes to safety there are no doubt many things we can all do

Try not to walk alone late in dark lit areas 
More CCTV in areas
Buy personal alarms
Create messages to friends to let you know they get home 
Keep your tracking on your phone 

But you are never going to stop every attack so imo the best way is when you are in a place you don’t feel comfortable be alert and be defensive - look after yourself the best way you feel you can 

I also worry even when the wife is driving home after hockey training 

The local hockey team have a relationship with a local taxi firm so they always book with them 

I have no doubt we want everyone to be safe from everything - but life isn’t that perfect


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Disappointed in the attuide of a lot of men about the whole situation

Quick to condemn but when comes to change or different ways of thinking things to provoke debate and reaction the same out comments come

Men feel unsafe too!!
Not all men are dangerous!!
Women can commit crimes!!

As always valid points get lost in the outrage
		
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I see what your saying but I think most ordinary family men don’t take kindly to being accused of being a threat to women.
If a woman feels uneasy just because I am walking down the same road as her what am I to do about it?
I think most men would think like me.
I am and never have been a threat to anyone especially women.
People who prey on weaker individuals are the scum of the earth imo.
But I can’t do anything about a perceived threat just because I am walking to the shops.
I don’t know what the answer is but if muggers / rapists etc are in jail they can’t threaten anyone.
But prosecutions are so low it’s a problem.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I see what your saying but I think most ordinary family men don’t take kindly to being accused of being a threat to women.
If a woman feels uneasy just because I am walking down the same road as her what am I to do about it?
I think most men would think like me.
I am and never have been a threat to anyone especially women.
People who prey on weaker individuals are the scum of the earth imo.
But I can’t do anything about a perceived threat just because I am walking to the shops.
I don’t know what the answer is but if muggers / rapists etc are in jail they can’t threaten anyone.
But prosecutions are so low it’s a problem.
		
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What can you do? Cross over to the other side if you think it makes her feel safer. If you’re wearing a hat or a hood, maybe take it down so she can see your face and feel more safer. If you’re both walking at a similar pace, maybe speed up and go past her or slow down for a moment to allow her more space so she feels safer. 

There are little things we can do to help this situation and little to no impact to ourselves.


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			What can you do? Cross over to the other side if you think it makes her feel safer. If you’re wearing a hat or a hood, maybe take it down so she can see your face and feel more safer. If you’re both walking at a similar pace, maybe speed up and go past her or slow down for a moment to allow her more space so she feels safer.

There are little things we can do to help this situation and little to no impact to ourselves.
		
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Which is fine, but none of that is actually making her any safer. I wasn't going to attack her in the first place. It might make her feel safer, but in reality, it hasn't made any material difference.
Sadly, her attacker is probably the other side of her front door, waiting for her to get home.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Which is fine, but none of that is actually making her any safer. I wasn't going to attack her in the first place. It might make her feel safer, but in reality, it hasn't made any material difference.
Sadly, her attacker is probably the other side of her front door, waiting for her to get home.
		
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You just don’t get it and I don’t think you even want to. It’s like you don’t care that women might be scared just because you know that you won’t hurt them.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			What can you do? Cross over to the other side if you think it makes her feel safer. If you’re wearing a hat or a hood, maybe take it down so she can see your face and feel more safer. If you’re both walking at a similar pace, maybe speed up and go past her or slow down for a moment to allow her more space so she feels safer.

There are little things we can do to help this situation and little to no impact to ourselves.
		
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If there’s a women on the other side of the road?
Zig zagging isn’t going to look good imo.
I never wear a hood ( banning hoodies might be a start though) I do wear a cap.
But I really think just because she can see my face dosnt make her safer if she dosnt know me.
At the moment we are avoiding everyone anyway but I never crowd anyone in the street if they are walking at a decent pace I just keep my distance .
It’s sad really that we have to think like this but if it helps that’s ok with me.
As I said I am not a threat but if it makes women feel safer I will think about it more than I have in the past.


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You just don’t get it and I don’t think you even want to. It’s like you don’t care that women might be scared just because you know that you won’t hurt them.
		
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Do you want to make women safe, or make them feel safe? It's two very different issues. Both important, but one is about comfort, and one is about not getting assaulted or killed.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Do you want to make women safe, or make them feel safe? It's two very different issues. Both important, but one is about comfort, and one is about not getting assaulted or killed.
		
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Both. And one is much easier to do so why not do it.


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Perhaps the thread title could be changed to 'women's perception of safety'?


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Both. And one is much easier to do so why not do it.
		
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Why not? But let's not kid ourselves it actually makes anyone any safer.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 13, 2021)

I am all for making women (or anyone for that matter) feel safe, nobody should be concerned about their safety whilst out in public.

Are we promoting some positive discrimination to make people feel safe?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			What can you do? Cross over to the other side if you think it makes her feel safer. If you’re wearing a hat or a hood, maybe take it down so she can see your face and feel more safer. If you’re both walking at a similar pace, maybe speed up and go past her or slow down for a moment to allow her more space so she feels safer.

There are little things we can do to help this situation and little to no impact to ourselves.
		
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Maybe for the first time ever I would do the same and agree. Please phone the men in white coats!


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

What Kellfire has said is laudable - don't ever slow down and drop behind a woman though as that would be scary. Speed up, stay in view until you're far enough away to not seem a threat.


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			What can you do? Cross over to the other side if you think it makes her feel safer. If you’re wearing a hat or a hood, maybe take it down so she can see your face and feel more safer. If you’re both walking at a similar pace, maybe speed up and go past her or slow down for a moment to allow her more space so she feels safer.

There are little things we can do to help this situation and little to no impact to ourselves.
		
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I've had to read this a few times to make sure I understand.  When I'm walking down a road and see a women I am to consider crossing over?  if I'm wearing my hoody because it's 2 degrees outside then pull it down?  
If I knew 100% that a women was petrified of me then I'd certainly consider it but I don't know how she feels.

Feeling unsafe and being unsafe are two very different things. I feel unsafe when I walk past a group of thugs outside a pub.

This is down to perception. A woman may feel unsafe walking down the road because of events that unfold in the media when in fact the chance of an attack is extremely low.  Ironically they may decide to drive to feel safer but statistically they're more likely to die in a car crash


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			What Kellfire has said is laudable - don't ever slow down and drop behind a woman though as that would be scary. Speed up, stay in view until you're far enough away to not seem a threat.
		
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This is a completely different scenario.  I'm 6 ft 4 and 16 stone.  If a 5ft tall women slowed down and dropped behind me I'd be petrified.  That's unusual behaviour.  Not the same as walking down the street


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## Neilds (Mar 13, 2021)

I think it is strange that all the men on here seem to know how women feel/think and won’t change their behaviour because they know they are not a threat. 
You don’t know how the woman in front of you is feeling, what previous experiences they may have had so any little thing you can do the make them *feel *safer has got to be a good thing surely. And this may take many forms, including maybe, telling your wife/daughter/sister not to walk home alone at night and pre book a taxi or get a lift with a friend. This is not saying don’t go out, but just take sensible precautions, just as men should.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			What Kellfire has said is laudable - don't ever slow down and drop behind a woman though as that would be scary. Speed up, stay in view until you're far enough away to not seem a threat.
		
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I meant if you were already behind her - just let her move far away from you. Didn’t word it the best, I definitely wouldn’t advocate slowing down until a woman overtook.


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

Neilds said:



			I think it is strange that all the men on here seem to know how women feel/think and won’t change their behaviour because they know they are not a threat.
You don’t know how the woman in front of you is feeling, what previous experiences they may have had so any little thing you can do the make them *feel *safer has got to be a good thing surely. And this may take many forms, including maybe, telling your wife/daughter/sister not to walk home alone at night and pre book a taxi or get a lift with a friend. This is not saying don’t go out, but just take sensible precautions, just as men should.
		
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But walking to the other side of the road every time you see a woman is not a small thing.  Removing a scalf evertime you see a woman is not a small Thing.  Ive just past at least 20 women on my dog walk.    I completely agree in certain circumstances measures can be taken.  Like walking through a park at night I would certainly afford any person a wider berth but you can't live you life walking down a street considering what fears this brings to any group of people.  Fetching a morning paper would be exhausting


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I meant if you were already behind her - just let her move far away from you. Didn’t word it the best, I definitely wouldn’t advocate slowing down until a woman overtook.
		
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😂 That's has got crime watch written all over it


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2021)

hovis said:



			😂 That's has got crime watch written all over it
		
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Yea for sure - “I’m just holding back so I can see that you’re safe.”
:/


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 13, 2021)

So what's the solution?


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## SaintHacker (Mar 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			So what's the solution?
		
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Accept that 99.99999% of people aren't out to hurt anyone, be sensible about your personal safety without being paranoid? Don't tar an entire gender because of the abhorrent actions of one individual?


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## USER1999 (Mar 13, 2021)

Up the conviction rates for assault and sexual assault. The current rates are terrible, and possibly lead to a perception that you will get away with it (if you are that way inclined). At the very least, spend more time and money researching why these rates are so low.
Disincentivising those who have z tendancy to think they will offend, or removing those who already have, and are likely to repeat, would genuinely make people safer, and feel safer too.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 13, 2021)

drive4show said:



			So what's the solution?
		
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For a start...
Listen when genuine concerns are raised...
Take on board what is being said...
Not, as always seems to be the case, make the first reaction of being seek to belittle...


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

Just for interest sake I'll recount a recent experience and see what opinion is as to who could have done what to alter the fact I ended up seriously scared and in my head saying "please don't hurt me" repeatedly whilst assessing an escape route.

We live out in the sticks although the A14 runs close to the village. There is a footpath alongside part of that main road about 3/4m outside the village. It's a concrete farm-track and useful to run out and back along it when the paths otherwise are really muddy. A few weeks ago I was running along there when a white BMW came past me on the track. I saw him pull in a little way in front and at that point considered turning back BUT I wanted to do my run so carried on past it. I glanced over my shoulder a few times just to check if anyone got out and when I reached the end of the track to turn around I checked the footbridge that is there was clear (runs over the ditch and allows access to the A14). I started to run back and could see the car was still parked up as the headlights were on. At this point a 2nd car came down the track and parked adjacent to the 1st one with a guy getting out of that and getting in the back of the BMW. As I got closer the 2nd car drove past me, turned around and came back past me and, to my relief, kept on going. My head is in a spin but I'm also planning what I can do to evade capture (I'm not a drama queen but I was bricking it). I swapped sides so if the BMW occupents wanted to grab me I'd be on the driver's side so would get more time to clamber over the fence and run across the fields. I kept glancing over my shoulder and slowed down so I'd have some oomph in my legs if needed. The BMW came past me and kept on going - oh the relief. I could see them drive down the slip road to the A14 but then they stopped and reversed back up the slip road. I'm thinking "they've decided I've seen them and their number plate and are coming back for me"...they didn't.

I've since found out that it's drug related (weed) and the white BMW belongs to a youth in the village who goes there with his mates to buy and smoke the dope. I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions. I've also since found out a few women have, like me, experienced this and stopped running alone along there regardless of time of day.

Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Agreed. Some of the comments yesterday about Page 3 were pathetic.
		
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Indeed - often seemingly missing the point I was trying to make and in some ways actually reinforcing it.

I think of my stunning 25yr old daughter...she has never talked to me about abuse or others issues she’s faced from blokes known and not known, but it is clear that she has 100% certain had such very unwelcome attention and when I engage my mind to that fact it is shocking.  Because as I had not heard her talk of that stuff, in my head it wasn’t happening to her - and it will have and I was simply ignorant of it.  And for as long as I was ignorant of it I would be more likely to be accepting of the milder manifestations of it I would encounter amongst those I know and associate with - and I have to say that that is almost exclusively through golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Just for interest sake I'll recount a recent experience and see what opinion is as to who could have done what to alter the fact I ended up seriously scared and in my head saying "please don't hurt me" repeatedly whilst assessing an escape route.

We live out in the sticks although the A14 runs close to the village. There is a footpath alongside part of that main road about 3/4m outside the village. It's a concrete farm-track and useful to run out and back along it when the paths otherwise are really muddy. A few weeks ago I was running along there when a white BMW came past me on the track. I saw him pull in a little way in front and at that point considered turning back BUT I wanted to do my run so carried on past it. I glanced over my shoulder a few times just to check if anyone got out and when I reached the end of the track to turn around I checked the footbridge that is there was clear (runs over the ditch and allows access to the A14). I started to run back and could see the car was still parked up as the headlights were on. At this point a 2nd car came down the track and parked adjacent to the 1st one with a guy getting out of that and getting in the back of the BMW. As I got closer the 2nd car drove past me, turned around and came back past me and, to my relief, kept on going. My head is in a spin but I'm also planning what I can do to evade capture (I'm not a drama queen but I was bricking it). I swapped sides so if the BMW occupents wanted to grab me I'd be on the driver's side so would get more time to clamber over the fence and run across the fields. I kept glancing over my shoulder and slowed down so I'd have some oomph in my legs if needed. The BMW came past me and kept on going - oh the relief. I could see them drive down the slip road to the A14 but then they stopped and reversed back up the slip road. I'm thinking "they've decided I've seen them and their number plate and are coming back for me"...they didn't.

I've since found out that it's drug related (weed) and the white BMW belongs to a youth in the village who goes there with his mates to buy and smoke the dope. I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions. I've also since found out a few women have, like me, experienced this and stopped running alone along there regardless of time of day.

Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?
		
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Thankyou for sharing that Amanda...it is important that we hear such as your experience and the better that we hear it ‘first hand’ so that we do not remain ignorant and thinking that this sort of thing only happens to ‘others’ - as you are ‘us’.  You are not other.


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou for sharing that Amanda...it is important that we hear such as your experience and the better that we hear it ‘first hand’ so that we do not remain ignorant and thinking that *this sort of thing* only happens to ‘others’ - as you are ‘us’.  You are not other.
		
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what sort of thing?  Nothing happened! She come across a drug deal.  Personally I would've felt uneasy too


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 13, 2021)

Sorry cannot cut and paste but replying to post 42.
Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day? 
Amanda. First of all pleased you did not come to any harm and you had your wits about you to consider all options. Whilst it is many years since I went running along country lanes I would have definitely turned back if I had been a lady. Whether I would as a man I doubt but depending upon the situation. How would you have reacted if a similar situation arose this week?

Do not think the BMW driver and friend would have given any consideration to anybody else but so pleased you are safe.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Sorry cannot cut and paste but replying to post 42.
Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Amanda. First of all pleased you did not come to any harm and you had your wits about you to consider all options. Whilst it is many years since I went running along country lanes I would have definitely turned back if I had been a lady. Whether I would as a man I doubt but depending upon the situation. How would you have reacted if a similar situation arose this week?

Do not think the BMW driver and friend would have given any consideration to anybody else but so pleased you are safe.
		
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I've not run and won't run that route alone again. Actually joined a running group in the village which came about from similar experiences of others. Interestingly the guy who told me about the weed smoking also runs along there and basically said "so don't worry, you're perfectly safe and I run along there (and see them) all the time". So we have different emotions about the risk I guess. Oh and yes next time I wouldn't be a stubborn sod and would turn back!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Just for interest sake I'll recount a recent experience and see what opinion is as to who could have done what to alter the fact I ended up seriously scared and in my head saying "please don't hurt me" repeatedly whilst assessing an escape route.

We live out in the sticks although the A14 runs close to the village. There is a footpath alongside part of that main road about 3/4m outside the village. It's a concrete farm-track and useful to run out and back along it when the paths otherwise are really muddy. A few weeks ago I was running along there when a white BMW came past me on the track. I saw him pull in a little way in front and at that point considered turning back BUT I wanted to do my run so carried on past it. I glanced over my shoulder a few times just to check if anyone got out and when I reached the end of the track to turn around I checked the footbridge that is there was clear (runs over the ditch and allows access to the A14). I started to run back and could see the car was still parked up as the headlights were on. At this point a 2nd car came down the track and parked adjacent to the 1st one with a guy getting out of that and getting in the back of the BMW. As I got closer the 2nd car drove past me, turned around and came back past me and, to my relief, kept on going. My head is in a spin but I'm also planning what I can do to evade capture (I'm not a drama queen but I was bricking it). I swapped sides so if the BMW occupents wanted to grab me I'd be on the driver's side so would get more time to clamber over the fence and run across the fields. I kept glancing over my shoulder and slowed down so I'd have some oomph in my legs if needed. The BMW came past me and kept on going - oh the relief. I could see them drive down the slip road to the A14 but then they stopped and reversed back up the slip road. I'm thinking "they've decided I've seen them and their number plate and are coming back for me"...they didn't.

I've since found out that it's drug related (weed) and the white BMW belongs to a youth in the village who goes there with his mates to buy and smoke the dope. I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions. I've also since found out a few women have, like me, experienced this and stopped running alone along there regardless of time of day.

Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?
		
Click to expand...

your experience is interesting, I think anyone stumbling over a drug deal or any illegal activity would feel uneasy/afraid, as you said you don’t know what you have just seen and they might not want any witnesses. Tbh I think you should have aborted your run or gone another way, you considered it so you realised you was maybe putting yourself in danger...Sarah Everard is thought to have been abducted walking across Clapham Common at 9pm. This is a dark unsafe place to walk, now no way am I blaming the poor girl at all, what happened to her is abhorrent but if she had maybe considered the risk she may have chose another route.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			read your respnse. You looked at page 3 but knew it was wrong and demeaning. Interseting to see how feel about many of the classic works of art featuring naked images women? Should they be banished like the statues, road names, pub names etc - or are they ok unlike similar images of woen in other formats?
		
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Pretty poor attempt to twist my words there. You asked if I had looked at page 3. I replied that, like everyone else, I had seen it. You then suggest that I am looking at it while knowing it's wrong as if I'm getting some kind of kick out of it. That's pretty low, and I take offence at your insinuation.

As for works of art, I don't have a problem with nude men or women in them. They are not used to demean and objectify and are not shoved in front of the hard of thinking on a daily basis.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			your experience is interesting, I think anyone stumbling over a drug deal or any illegal activity would feel uneasy/afraid, as you said you don’t know what you have just seen and they might not want any witnesses. Tbh I think you should have aborted your run or gone another way, you considered it so you realised you was maybe putting yourself in danger...Sarah Everard is thought to have been abducted walking across Clapham Common at 9pm. This is a dark unsafe place to walk, now no way am I blaming the poor girl at all, what happened to her is abhorrent but if she had maybe considered the risk she may have chose another route.
		
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Agreed and it is a fine line. I described myself as stubborn because I did appreciate the possible risk but also thought "I'm not letting this sod ruin my plans"...never too old to learn a lesson though and simply wasn't worth it as there was zero enjoyment.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			your experience is interesting, I think anyone stumbling over a drug deal or any illegal activity would feel uneasy/afraid, as you said you don’t know what you have just seen and they might not want any witnesses. Tbh I think you should have aborted your run or gone another way, you considered it so you realised you was maybe putting yourself in danger...Sarah Everard is thought to have been abducted walking across Clapham Common at 9pm. This is a dark unsafe place to walk, now no way am I blaming the poor girl at all, what happened to her is abhorrent but if she had maybe considered the risk she may have chose another route.
		
Click to expand...

She wasn't abducted on Clapham Common. The last sighting of her was on the A205 Poynders Rd, so she had already walked through Clapham Common and was heading to her home by that point.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			She wasn't abducted on Clapham Common. The last sighting of her was on the A205 Poynders Rd, so she had already walked through Clapham Common and was heading to her home by that point.
		
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Report I read said Clapham Common, hence searches of the common and lakes...no matter, a 50 minute walk from Clapham to Brixton at night was a poor decision. These are rough areas, She was 5ft 4” walking on her own through some of the most dangerous streets in London at night. Very vulnerable to predators, and there ARE predators out there looking for vulnerable women, it’s unfair but women have to be so careful.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Report I read said Clapham Common, hence searches of the common and lakes...no matter, a 50 minute walk from Clapham to Brixton at night was a poor decision. These are rough areas, She was 5ft 4” walking on her own through some of the most dangerous streets in London at night. Very vulnerable to predators, and there ARE predators out there looking for vulnerable women, it’s unfair but women have to be so careful.
		
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Indeed and the most shocking element is the predator was the very type of person we'd expect to protect her.


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## Leftitshort (Mar 13, 2021)

I’m genuinely torn on this. I think I’m part of the the problem. I find it abhorrent what happened last week. I find it really sad that 50% of society live with some kind of fear. I worry when my wife goes out and comes home late. Uber/taxis/walking home all can be dangerous. But.......
Do I objectify women...yep, do I feel irritated when people (men & women, usually those who display their pronouns) maintain all men are the problem...yep. I wouldn’t deliberately intimidate a women, but I’m powerless if she carries around that fear with her. I’m not going to apologise for being white, male & straight.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Indeed and the most shocking element is the predator was the very type of person we'd expect to protect her.
		
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Yes that’s the most shocking thing of all. 

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?“


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Footage from a doorbell camera shows Ms Everard walking along the A205 Poynders Road at about 9.30pm.

It captures her walking alone from the junction at Cavendish Road, toward Tulse Hill, which lies south of Brixton.

The image appears to suggest she walked through Clapham Common and was heading towards her home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...nts-of-woman-missing-in-south-london-12241505

Walking through Clapham Common was not a good decision. My daughter is at university in Leeds, there is a big park next to where she lives, and I keep telling her to avoid it.

But in this case, it wasn't a factor. And Brixton is pretty gentrified these days, there are far worse places to be walking.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Footage from a doorbell camera shows Ms Everard walking along the A205 Poynders Road at about 9.30pm.

It captures her walking alone from the junction at Cavendish Road, toward Tulse Hill, which lies south of Brixton.

The image appears to suggest she walked through Clapham Common and was heading towards her home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...nts-of-woman-missing-in-south-london-12241505

Walking through Clapham Common was not a good decision. My daughter is at university in Leeds, there is a big park next to where she lives, and I keep telling her to avoid it.

But in this case, it wasn't a factor. And *Brixton is pretty gentrified these days*, there are far worse places to be walking.
		
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Then that's seen a remarkable change since the days when I used to work there.  Sorry but I think you are very much mistaken there.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Footage from a doorbell camera shows Ms Everard walking along the A205 Poynders Road at about 9.30pm.

It captures her walking alone from the junction at Cavendish Road, toward Tulse Hill, which lies south of Brixton.

The image appears to suggest she walked through Clapham Common and was heading towards her home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...nts-of-woman-missing-in-south-london-12241505

Walking through Clapham Common was not a good decision. My daughter is at university in Leeds, there is a big park next to where she lives, and I keep telling her to avoid it.

But in this case, it wasn't a factor. And *Brixton is pretty gentrified these days, there are far worse places to be walking*.
		
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See this is just naive to think this way, during the day it’s cool and trendy and an exciting place to live but at night it’s still one of the most violent places in London


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## backwoodsman (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Report I read said Clapham Common, hence searches of the common and lakes...no matter, a 50 minute walk from Clapham to Brixton at night was a poor decision.* These are rough areas, She was 5ft 4” walking on her own through some of the most dangerous streets in London* at night. Very vulnerable to predators, and there ARE predators out there looking for vulnerable women, it’s unfair but women have to be so careful.
		
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I suspect you need to revise your opinion of the area. Poynders Road (the South Circular road) hardly fits that bill. It's not a known "unsafe" place.  One _should_ feel safe enough there.

The thing is, she was very very unlucky and the consequences were terrible. I dont know precisely where she was heading (saying Brixton doesnt really pinpoint it) but I'd opine that  she'd thought about her route - the south circular is as "main" a main road as you get. And it's not the most direct route to what I know as Brixton. She certainly wasn't cutting through the more secluded streets which may have been more direct.. She _should_ have been safe. And she _should_ to have felt safe.  On this occasion, the first of these patently wasn't true, and the second probably wasn't . Which is a sad indictment of society.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've since found out that it's drug related (weed) and the white BMW belongs to a youth in the village who goes there with his mates to buy and smoke the dope. I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions. I've also since found out a few women have, like me, experienced this and stopped running alone along there regardless of time of day.

Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?
		
Click to expand...

Apologies for cutting down your post Amanda, but without doing so the relevant bits disappear.  My thoughts, for what it's worth.

*I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions? * They couldn't give a hoot.  What they are doing is illegal, yet they carry on in broad daylight, and then compound the offence by driving with that in their system.  They'd probably laugh out loud or think themselves bigger men for scaring someone.  They do not give a  

*Should I have aborted my run?  *Yes.  If I remember the Officer Safety model properly, there are only two threat levels; high or unknown.  You have perceived a threat, but the level is unknown at this stage.  At that point, you have no escape plan (you are thinking about it, but it is not yet formulated) but have prioritised finishing your run over the perceived threat at this stage, and have continued to run towards the perceived threat.  Having got past the threat, and potentially got to an escape route (the footbridge? I don't know where it gets you, not knowing the area, but by using it you immediately deprive them of the use of their vehicles and have reduced the contest to a foot race), you've then turned round and run back towards the perceived threat.  There is some good thinking in there is as much as you chose the side of the path to increase the reactionary gap between you and them, but you had the opportunity to about turn the moment you saw the threat thus eliminating ityet continued towards it.  To paraphrase Jack Reacher, the fights that you guarantee you don't lose are the fights you don't have.

One of the best things you have done is to join the running club; safety in numbers, both from incidents like this and in cases of illness or injury, especially in a rural area.

*Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?  *They should not be doing it at all, but they have no consideration for others as previously discussed.

*Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?  *You know me, I don't get a say on this as I don't meet the criteria to give an answer. 

Before I get told that my suggestions are preposterous for suggesting someone shouldn't continue a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others; this is not about the morals or legalities of the situation, it is purely an opinion on the correct course of action to keep a friend safe where she has perceived a threat to her safety.  Yes it is morally wrong that she cannot undertake a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others, but the response is about ensuring safety, not morals.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			See this is just naive to think this way, during the day it’s cool and trendy and an exciting place to live but at night it’s still one of the most violent places in London
		
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At 9.30 on a Wednesday night?


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2021)

Going off track briefly, and please bear with me. There was a discussion in here a year or so back about glass ceilings for women in the workplace, which also opened up a little on their 'general place' in society, for want of a better way of saying it. Her in doors was the national training manager for a multi-national, and had also been a store manager for another multi-national. We had a discussion about the glass ceiling, how she got on with her male colleagues etc. I was shocked and dismayed by her response. I genuinely don't know where to start with all the crap she experienced in her work life, much of which many males considered banter.

My sister was followed home one night. She didn't make it home in one piece............

We men, as enlightened as many of us think we are, would do well to listen, not just hear, to the stories that many women could tell us.

And I'm with Kellfire. Depending on the circumstances I cross over so that the female feels safer. I do that because of what I've heard from women.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apologies for cutting down your post Amanda, but without doing so the relevant bits disappear.  My thoughts, for what it's worth.

*I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions? * They couldn't give a hoot.  What they are doing is illegal, yet they carry on in broad daylight, and then compound the offence by driving with that in their system.  They'd probably laugh out loud or think themselves bigger men for scaring someone.  They do not give a 

*Should I have aborted my run?  *Yes.  If I remember the Officer Safety model properly, there are only two threat levels; high or unknown.  You have perceived a threat, but the level is unknown at this stage.  At that point, you have no escape plan (you are thinking about it, but it is not yet formulated) but have prioritised finishing your run over the perceived threat at this stage, and have continued to run towards the perceived threat.  Having got past the threat, and potentially got to an escape route (the footbridge? I don't know where it gets you, not knowing the area, but by using it you immediately deprive them of the use of their vehicles and have reduced the contest to a foot race), you've then turned round and run back towards the perceived threat.  There is some good thinking in there is as much as you chose the side of the path to increase the reactionary gap between you and them, but you had the opportunity to about turn the moment you saw the threat thus eliminating ityet continued towards it.  To paraphrase Jack Reacher, the fights that you guarantee you don't lose are the fights you don't have.

One of the best things you have done is to join the running club; safety in numbers, both from incidents like this and in cases of illness or injury, especially in a rural area.

*Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?  *They should not be doing it at all, but they have no consideration for others as previously discussed.

*Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?  *You know me, I don't get a say on this as I don't meet the criteria to give an answer. 

Before I get told that my suggestions are preposterous for suggesting someone shouldn't continue a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others; this is not about the morals or legalities of the situation, it is purely an opinion on the correct course of action to keep a friend safe where she has perceived a threat to her safety.  Yes it is morally wrong that she cannot undertake a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others, but the response is about ensuring safety, not morals.
		
Click to expand...

All very logical and 100% correct. I should have turned around when I saw them and, if not then, taken the footbridge escape route (it crosses the ditch to the A14 where there are gaps in the barriers to cross towards the village and home). My only excuse, which is lame, is the "I'll be damned if those so and so's are going to stop me doing what I want". Sadly I'm sure that attitude has cost many women. It was an experience that jolted me as can't recall ever being quite so scared - I could hear my voice whining in my head "please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me". It won't happen again as I'd be way more sensible.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			All very logical and 100% correct. I should have turned around when I saw them and, if not then, taken the footbridge escape route (it crosses the ditch to the A14 where there are gaps in the barriers to cross towards the village and home). My only excuse, which is lame, is the "I'll be damned if those so and so's are going to stop me doing what I want". Sadly I'm sure that attitude has cost many women. It was an experience that jolted me as can't recall ever being quite so scared - I could hear my voice whining in my head "please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me". It won't happen again as I'd be way more sensible.
		
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I'm pleased to hear that Amanda, as it will keep you safe but equally I'm not pleased to hear it as I shouldn't have to and you shouldn't have to think that way; you should be able to run without fear.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			At 9.30 on a Wednesday night?
		
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Yes.  I say that as a former driver on a robbery squad car posted to that division.  I'm told it hasn't changed that much since I left.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I suspect you need to revise your opinion of the area. Poynders Road (the South Circular road) hardly fits that bill. It's not a known "unsafe" place.  One _should_ feel safe enough there.

The thing is, she was very very unlucky and the consequences were terrible. I dont know precisely where she was heading (saying Brixton doesnt really pinpoint it) but I'd opine that  she'd thought about her route - the south circular is as "main" a main road as you get. And it's not the most direct route to what I know as Brixton. She certainly wasn't cutting through the more secluded streets which may have been more direct.. She _should_ have been safe. And she _should_ to have felt safe.  On this occasion, the first of these patently wasn't true, and the second probably wasn't . Which is a sad indictment of society.
		
Click to expand...

Given the reason for this thread I’ll just stick with my opinion. Statically Lambeth is one of the worst places in London for violent crime. 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ondon-boroughs-youre-most-likely-17591644.amp

I won’t let high property prices, artisan bakeries and £6 flat whites lul me into a false sense of security.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apologies for cutting down your post Amanda, but without doing so the relevant bits disappear.  My thoughts, for what it's worth.

*I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions? * They couldn't give a hoot.  What they are doing is illegal, yet they carry on in broad daylight, and then compound the offence by driving with that in their system.  They'd probably laugh out loud or think themselves bigger men for scaring someone.  They do not give a 

*Should I have aborted my run?  *Yes.  If I remember the Officer Safety model properly, there are only two threat levels; high or unknown.  You have perceived a threat, but the level is unknown at this stage.  At that point, you have no escape plan (you are thinking about it, but it is not yet formulated) but have prioritised finishing your run over the perceived threat at this stage, and have continued to run towards the perceived threat.  Having got past the threat, and potentially got to an escape route (the footbridge? I don't know where it gets you, not knowing the area, but by using it you immediately deprive them of the use of their vehicles and have reduced the contest to a foot race), you've then turned round and run back towards the perceived threat.  There is some good thinking in there is as much as you chose the side of the path to increase the reactionary gap between you and them, but you had the opportunity to about turn the moment you saw the threat thus eliminating ityet continued towards it.  To paraphrase Jack Reacher, the fights that you guarantee you don't lose are the fights you don't have.

One of the best things you have done is to join the running club; safety in numbers, both from incidents like this and in cases of illness or injury, especially in a rural area.

*Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?  *They should not be doing it at all, but they have no consideration for others as previously discussed.

*Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?  *You know me, I don't get a say on this as I don't meet the criteria to give an answer. 

Before I get told that my suggestions are preposterous for suggesting someone shouldn't continue a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others; this is not about the morals or legalities of the situation, it is purely an opinion on the correct course of action to keep a friend safe where she has perceived a threat to her safety.  Yes it is morally wrong that she cannot undertake a perfectly legal activity because of the illegal activities of others, but the response is about ensuring safety, not morals.
		
Click to expand...

The most sensible post I have read on this whole subject.
And I believe , from someone who knows what these situations are about.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yes.  I say that as a former driver on a robbery squad car posted to that division.  I'm told it hasn't changed that much since I left.
		
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Not sure why we are even discussing the route she took home. She was abducted by a police officer in uniform who presumably either used his badge or gun to get her into his car. That could have happened anywhere.

If we are looking at how this could have been avoided, we should be asking why an officer who had been accused of exposing himself to female staff in a branch of McDonald's a few days earlier was allowed to stay on duty and to carry a firearm.


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Not sure why we are even discussing the route she took home. She was abducted by a police officer in uniform who presumably either used his badge or gun to get her into his car. That could have happened anywhere.

If we are looking at how this could have been avoided, we should be asking why an officer who had been accused of exposing himself to female staff in a branch of McDonald's a few days earlier was allowed to stay on duty and to carry a firearm.
		
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Was he in uniform?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Not sure why we are even discussing the route she took home. She was abducted by a police officer in uniform who presumably either used his badge or gun to get her into his car. That could have happened anywhere.

If we are looking at how this could have been avoided, we should be asking why an officer who had been accused of exposing himself to female staff in a branch of McDonald's a few days earlier was allowed to stay on duty and to carry a firearm.
		
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We are discussing the route home because you tried to persuade the forum that Brixton is gentrified and a couple of us, one of whom used to patrol there, have a different point of view.

I've not seen anything revealing the details of the offence, so perhaps you could clarify where you got the confirmation that he was in uniform at the time of the offence and that he was carrying a firearm?  The normal procedure was for those to be booked in at the end of the tour so I'm wondering when that changed?

I'd be interested to know the extent of the evidence that there is against him on the indecent exposure charges.  I'm not suggesting that anyone that exposes themselves to females is suitable as a police officer but I'd like to know exactly what happened and you seem to have the advantage on the rest of the forum here.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Not sure why we are even discussing the route she took home. She was abducted by a police officer in uniform who presumably either used his badge or gun to get her into his car. That could have happened anywhere.

If we are looking at how this could have been avoided, we should be asking why an officer who had been accused of exposing himself to female staff in a branch of McDonald's a few days earlier was allowed to stay on duty and to carry a firearm.
		
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A lot of assumptions there? Or you have heard a lot of information I was not aware was in the public domain!


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			We are discussing the route home because you tried to persuade the forum that Brixton is gentrified and a couple of us, one of whom used to patrol there, have a different point of view.

I've not seen anything revealing the details of the offence, so perhaps you could clarify where you got the confirmation that he was in uniform at the time of the offence and that he was carrying a firearm?  The normal procedure was for those to be booked in at the end of the tour so I'm wondering when that changed?

I'd be interested to know the extent of the evidence that there is against him on the indecent exposure charges.  I'm not suggesting that anyone that exposes themselves to females is suitable as a police officer but I'd like to know exactly what happened and you seem to have the advantage on the rest of the forum here.
		
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No need to be sarky. Her choice of route was brought up by another poster who said she was abducted on Clapham Common. 

I never said he definitely had had his firearm with him, I said "presumably". If that presumption is wrong, I'm happy to withdraw it.

He had just finished a shift outside the. US Embassy. I assume he would have left there still in uniform, but again if you can tell me that's not normal process, again, I'm happy to withdraw that assumption.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			No need to be sarky. Her choice of route was brought up by another poster who said she was abducted on Clapham Common.

I never said he definitely had had his firearm with him, I said "presumably". If that presumption is wrong, I'm happy to withdraw it.

He had just finished a shift outside the. US Embassy. I assume he would have left there still in uniform, but again if you can tell me that's not normal process, again, I'm happy to withdraw that assumption.
		
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I may have been wrong about her being abducted on Clapham Common (you seem to know more facts than most) maybe it was somewhere else, but surely the reason he chose her was because she was walking on her own on a dark street at night? Which was the point I was trying to make, she chose to walk rather than get an Uber, maybe like you she thought it was “gentrified” and she was in no danger. 

BTW, no way is she even slightly to blame for this. She should have been able to walk the street’s safely. Sadly that is not the reality.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I may have been wrong about her being abducted on Clapham Common (you seem to know more facts than most) maybe it was somewhere else, but surely the reason he chose her was because she was walking on her own on a dark street at night? Which was the point I was trying to make, she chose to walk rather than get an Uber, maybe like you she thought it was “gentrified” and she was in no danger.

BTW, no way is she even slightly to blame for this. She should have been able to walk the street’s safely. Sadly that is not the reality.
		
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I don't know any more than any than anyone else, the site of her abduction has been on every news outlet.

I find it a bit depressing that a wider discussion on women's safety and men's understanding of it has been derailed into criticism of a victims choice of route home  (I know you have said you don't blame her, but if that's the case, why bring up Clapham Common and Brixton up in the first place?).


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			No need to be sarky. Her choice of route was brought up by another poster who said she was abducted on Clapham Common.

I never said he definitely had had his firearm with him, I said "presumably". If that presumption is wrong, I'm happy to withdraw it.

He had just finished a shift outside the. US Embassy. I assume he would have left there still in uniform, but again if you can tell me that's not normal process, again, I'm happy to withdraw that assumption.
		
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I share a changing room with the coppers.  All I know is they don't travel to and from work in their uniform and armed coppers never work "single crew"


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## rulefan (Mar 13, 2021)

My impression is that many of the posts in "Laughter - the best medicine" satisfy the definition of misogyny. Perhaps the monitors should take note.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I don't know any more than any than anyone else, the site of her abduction has been on every news outlet.

I find it a bit depressing that a wider discussion on women's safety and men's understanding of it has been derailed into criticism of a victims choice of route home  (I know you have said you don't blame her, but if that's the case, *why bring up Clapham Common and Brixton up in the first place?*).
		
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After Amanda’s post earlier I was making the link about choices. 
I don’t know what business your in, I’m in construction and risk assessment runs through every thing we do. You look at a task, identify any risks then take actions to mitigate them. In everyday life it’s sometimes just called common sense. Amanda saw the risk and decided that it wasn’t quite enough for her to change her route. And she was right. I don’t know if Sarah ran through the risks in her head maybe like you she didn’t recognise them but she made a decision to walk home on her home. That exposed her to the risk.

Again, not blaming her. There is only one person responsible for her death.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			No need to be sarky. Her choice of route was brought up by another poster who said she was abducted on Clapham Common.

I never said he definitely had had his firearm with him, I said "presumably". If that presumption is wrong, I'm happy to withdraw it.

He had just finished a shift outside the. US Embassy. I assume he would have left there still in uniform, but again if you can tell me that's not normal process, again, I'm happy to withdraw that assumption.
		
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I don't consider that sarcastic given the tone of your post; your comment came across as deflecting from the comments regarding how safe Brixton is, so I clarified why we were discussing it.  If you consider it sarcastic that's your choice, but not my intention.

As far as I remember from my involvement with it, there will be an armoury at the American Embassy and officers wil be required to book their firearms into that armoury at the end of their shift.  They will not routinely carry them to & from work.  The logistics of equipping every DPG officer's home address with a gun safe to satisfy the Firearms Act regulations would put paid to that.

It is also normal practice for officers to have a locker in which their uniform will be left at the end of a shift.  I believe it was frowned upon to travel to and from work in "half blues" when I first joined.  Depending on duties and shifts it was something that was occasionally done, but travelling to & from work in full uniform as the norm went out some time ago with home postings.  

He might well have been in half blues at the time, that wasn't something that I remember being rigidly enforced and I know some officers did, but I would be absolutely amazed if he had swanned out of the American Embassy with a firearm in his possession.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

I didn’t realise there was a mass vigil tonight- and the police have gone in to break it up because it breaks Covid restrictions 

Just stupid all round and it’s going to make things worse


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2021)

So what is the answer, if there is one. Unfortunately there are phychopaths, rapists and a plethora of nutcases out on the streets, there are also the vast majority of decent men who would never harm a woman.  

I take @Kellfires point that if you are in the vicinity of a woman in a quiet place then be aware of trying not to make her feel uncomfortable but what can be done to stop the person with intent to harm from doing it.  I don't know the answer to that one, there probably isn't an all encompassing answer. No amount of protesting or awareness is going to stop man or woman in some circumstances from carrying out their horrendous actions.

The main deterrent must be for the vunerable to do all they can from placing themselves into situations that increase their vulnerability.  I know some will take the view that they shouldn't have to do this but there isn't a simple answer, making men aware of women's safety unfortunately only makes a difference to those who arnt going to be the problem.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn’t realise there was a mass vigil tonight- and the police have gone in to break it up because it breaks Covid restrictions

Just stupid all round and it’s going to make things worse
		
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Apparently they went to court to argue against the banning of the event but lost;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56379248

Police are on a hiding to nothing either way with this one.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn’t realise there was a mass vigil tonight- and the police have gone in to break it up because it breaks Covid restrictions

Just stupid all round and it’s going to make things worse
		
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The "official" one got cancelled. The organisers were told by the Met that it wouldn't be allowed due to Covid regulations so they went to court to try to get it to be allowed. The judge rules against them so they cancelled and the "official" vigil became a doorstep one instead. I assume that it is an unofficial one that's gone ahead.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently they went to court to argue against the banning of the event but lost;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56379248

Police are on a hiding to nothing either way with this one.
		
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Yep for me whilst I understand the meaning of the vigil but there needs to be an understanding from them that right now we are still under lockdown restrictions and a vigil could go ahead during the appropriate time. This has just escalated it all now and there are poor generic judgements flying around from both sides



ColchesterFC said:



			The "official" one got cancelled. The organisers were told by the Met that it wouldn't be allowed due to Covid regulations so they went to court to try to get it to be allowed. The judge rules against them so they cancelled and the "official" vigil became a doorstep one instead. I assume that it is an unofficial one that's gone ahead.
		
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Yep they went ahead with it all despite the courts ruling


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Just for interest sake I'll recount a recent experience and see what opinion is as to who could have done what to alter the fact I ended up seriously scared and in my head saying "please don't hurt me" repeatedly whilst assessing an escape route.

We live out in the sticks although the A14 runs close to the village. There is a footpath alongside part of that main road about 3/4m outside the village. It's a concrete farm-track and useful to run out and back along it when the paths otherwise are really muddy. A few weeks ago I was running along there when a white BMW came past me on the track. I saw him pull in a little way in front and at that point considered turning back BUT I wanted to do my run so carried on past it. I glanced over my shoulder a few times just to check if anyone got out and when I reached the end of the track to turn around I checked the footbridge that is there was clear (runs over the ditch and allows access to the A14). I started to run back and could see the car was still parked up as the headlights were on. At this point a 2nd car came down the track and parked adjacent to the 1st one with a guy getting out of that and getting in the back of the BMW. As I got closer the 2nd car drove past me, turned around and came back past me and, to my relief, kept on going. My head is in a spin but I'm also planning what I can do to evade capture (I'm not a drama queen but I was bricking it). I swapped sides so if the BMW occupents wanted to grab me I'd be on the driver's side so would get more time to clamber over the fence and run across the fields. I kept glancing over my shoulder and slowed down so I'd have some oomph in my legs if needed. The BMW came past me and kept on going - oh the relief. I could see them drive down the slip road to the A14 but then they stopped and reversed back up the slip road. I'm thinking "they've decided I've seen them and their number plate and are coming back for me"...they didn't.

I've since found out that it's drug related (weed) and the white BMW belongs to a youth in the village who goes there with his mates to buy and smoke the dope. I wonder what their thoughts would be if they knew the impact of their actions. I've also since found out a few women have, like me, experienced this and stopped running alone along there regardless of time of day.

Should I have aborted my run?
Should they have some consideration and, having seen me, aborted their dope consumption that day?
Of the guys on here who run - how scared on a scale of 1 to 10 would you have been?
		
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Nothing happened though.
They probably didn’t even register you were there.
But your brain is making up it’s own scenarios that’s just the way it works.

Expecting drug dealers to stop because you are running is just not going to happen.
But if a lot of people know about these drug deals why havnt the police stopped it.

I don’t run but can imagine that’s pretty scary.


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 13, 2021)

I think it's incorrect to say that the organisers of the protest tonight lost the court case. The court was not asked to rule on this specific protest, they were asked to rule on whether or not protest could be legal under Covid regulations. In the end, the Met conceded before the case that it could be legal, so there was no decision on this. 

So, the protest could legally have gone ahead if the Met had allowed it, this is not about the law but rather about decisions by the Met. They have allowed previous protests but chose not to allow this one ... the one which was a protest by women about a serving Met officer being accused of the murder of a woman. They've misplayed this very very badly I think and my guess is that the repercussions will come back to the Met leadership this week, not the protesters. Priti Patel is already sensing the wind, and asking them for a full report.


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## JamesR (Mar 13, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I think it's incorrect to say that the organisers of the protest tonight lost the court case. The court was not asked to rule on this specific protest, they were asked to rule on whether or not protest could be legal under Covid regulations. In the end, the Met conceded before the case that it could be legal, so there was no decision on this.

So, the protest could legally have gone ahead if the Met had allowed it, this is not about the law but rather about decisions by the Met. They have allowed previous protests but chose not to allow this one ... the one which was a protest by women about a serving Met officer being accused of the murder of a woman. They've misplayed this very very badly I think and my guess is that the repercussions will come back to the Met leadership this week, not the protesters. Priti Patel is already sensing the wind, and asking them for a full report.
		
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Yep, it was a case of how best to turn the public further against them, and they found it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I think it's incorrect to say that the organisers of the protest tonight lost the court case. The court was not asked to rule on this specific protest, they were asked to rule on whether or not protest could be legal under Covid regulations. In the end, the Met conceded before the case that it could be legal, so there was no decision on this.

So, the protest could legally have gone ahead if the Met had allowed it, this is not about the law but rather about decisions by the Met. They have allowed previous protests but chose not to allow this one ... the one which was a protest by women about a serving Met officer being accused of the murder of a woman. They've misplayed this very very badly I think and my guess is that the repercussions will come back to the Met leadership this week, not the protesters. Priti Patel is already sensing the wind, and asking them for a full report.
		
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Having done some more research you are correct in your judgement 

Looking at the pictures from over the year of other “peaceful protests” where the police have stood off it looks like they have widely misjudged this all and it’s not great at all


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 13, 2021)

The words of my wife earlier tonight...."I think we need a little perspective. Yes there are some nasty men, but most men aren't, just as most policemen are safe, most doctors are safe (Shipman) and most priests are safe and not interested in young boys"


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I think it's incorrect to say that the organisers of the protest tonight lost the court case. The court was not asked to rule on this specific protest, they were asked to rule on whether or not protest could be legal under Covid regulations. In the end, the Met conceded before the case that it could be legal, so there was no decision on this.

So, the protest could legally have gone ahead if the Met had allowed it, this is not about the law but rather about decisions by the Met. They have allowed previous protests but chose not to allow this one ... *the one which was a protest by women about a serving Met officer being accused of the murder of a woman*. They've misplayed this very very badly I think and my guess is that the repercussions will come back to the Met leadership this week, not the protesters. Priti Patel is already sensing the wind, and asking them for a full report.
		
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The serving Met Police Officer has not been found guilty in a court of law at this time so what is the point of protesting about him being accused.

If the accused is guilty then he is a Murderer and law breaker and as such our laws will administer the appropriate punishment.  I cannot see any reason for a protest at this time, what can it possibly achieve.


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The serving Met Police Officer has not been found guilty in a court of law at this time so what is the point of protesting about him being accused.

If the accused is guilty then he is a Murderer and law breaker and as such our laws will administer the appropriate punishment.  I cannot see any reason for a protest at this time, what can it possibly achieve.
		
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I think they're using this case as a catalyst to bring people together andpoint out that harassment, attacks, being scared to walk alone at night, etc, are something that women experience constantly? And that that is an unacceptable state of affairs. So not so much about the accused, more about the victim.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 13, 2021)

I am disgusted. The Covid regulations, yes, the law is quite clear about gatherings.
These people broke that law quite brazenly, and in effect said, "you won't /can't do anything about it because we are so many"
So when the police did enforce the law, ( the police don't make the law!) a bunch of politicians get up and condemn them.

I'm rather glad I'm old....What a Country!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I think they're using this case as a catalyst to bring people together andpoint out that harassment, attacks, being scared to walk alone at night, etc, are something that women experience constantly? And that that is an unacceptable state of affairs. So not so much about the accused, more about the victim.
		
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And what do they propose should be done about it.  Shining a light from your phone won't achieve much.


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am disgusted. The Covid regulations, yes, the law is quite clear about gatherings.
These people broke that law quite brazenly, and in effect said, "you won't /can't do anything about it because we are so many"
So when the police did enforce the law, ( the police don't make the law!) a bunch of politicians get up and condemn them.

I'm rather glad I'm old....What a Country!
		
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Do Covid regulations trump primary legislation though? The right to protest is, to use a phrase much loved by the current government, "enshrined in law". So should that law take precedence over "regulations" which are made up at short notice and not subject to votes in the Commons?

I'm not sure, personally, but it's a very important debate and one which hasn't much been had. I'm not an anti-masker, open the place up, covid-denier. I agree with the vast majority of the rules that have been put in place. But ... where they interfere with human rights which are part of our laws in the UK, there has to be scope for challenge? Bear in mind that in some of the previous iterations of Covid regulations, protests were explicitly allowed. They were not explicitly allowed in the current set, and I think that's were this whole thing comes from.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The serving Met Police Officer has not been found guilty in a court of law at this time so what is the point of protesting about him being accused.

If the accused is guilty then he is a Murderer and law breaker and as such our laws will administer the appropriate punishment.  I cannot see any reason for a protest at this time, what can it possibly achieve.
		
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It wasn’t supposed to be a protest - was supposed to a vigil to highlight issues of women being attacked 



Swinglowandslow said:



			I am disgusted. The Covid regulations, yes, the law is quite clear about gatherings.
These people broke that law quite brazenly, and in effect said, "you won't /can't do anything about it because we are so many"
So when the police did enforce the law, ( the police don't make the law!) a bunch of politicians get up and condemn them.

I'm rather glad I'm old....What a Country!
		
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The timing on this all isn’t great - there have been multiple demos , protests etc during Covid restrictions and police have stood back and monitored- this time the perception is they have reacted with force and the images not great - not a great look


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			And what do they propose should be done about it.  Shining a light from your phone won't achieve much.
		
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We're all talking about it, that's a step forwards surely?


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## RichA (Mar 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			And what do they propose should be done about it.  Shining a light from your phone won't achieve much.
		
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Standing in front of a tank with your shopping bags shouldn't work, but people noticed. I know it's different, but there's a decent history of peaceful protest getting things started around the world and through history. Good luck to them.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Standing in front of a tank with your shopping bags shouldn't work, but people noticed. I know it's different, but there's a decent history of peaceful protest getting things started around the world and through history. Good luck to them.
		
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So answer the question, what do they want to happen.

The vast majority of men are not murders of Women and have no intention of creating them harm. The ones that do are not going to take any notice of these protests. We have laws to deal with those that break them.  These protests are doing nothing to help unless they have clear objectives.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			We're all talking about it, that's a step forwards surely?
		
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Not if there is no clarity of purpose.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It wasn’t supposed to be a protest - was supposed to a vigil to highlight issues of women being attacked
		
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What is a ' vigil' supposed to achieve?   If you want change then you must lay out clearly what that change is and how you propose to achieve it.

It looks to me that those vigilising don't seem to have clue what they want to happen.  I keep asking this question but have seen no answers other than vague comments like 'talking about it


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 14, 2021)

There were two purposes tonight. To remember Sarah Everard, the victim, and then secondly to raise awareness of just how common it is for women to feel scared, for women to be attacked, for women to limit what they do because of fear? With the actions of the Met tonight, I'm not sure the first was truly achieved but I think the second has been.

These are the original 4 tweets from just a few days ago that kicked off this vigil/protest, the purposes seem fairly clear.

We believe that streets should be safe for women, regardless of what you wear, where you live or what time of day or night it is. We shouldn’t have to wear bright colours when we walk home and clutch our keys in our fists to feel safe

It’s wrong that the response to violence against women requires women to behave differently. In Clapham, police told women not to go out at night this week. Women are not the problem.

Come to the bandstand on Clapham Common at 6pm on Saturday the 13th of March to reclaim these streets and our public spaces. This event is for and about women, but open to all. Bring a light to remember those we’ve lost.

We’ve all been following the tragic case of Sarah Everard over the last week. This is a vigil for Sarah, but also for all women who feel unsafe, who go missing from our streets and who face violence every day.


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 14, 2021)

I don't think you need to have all of the answers before you protest? Sometimes just getting it into the public awareness is enough. I have seen a couple of horrible stories this week on my FB feed from women that are actually my friends, these are not random quotes or things that happened to a friend of a friend of a friend. These are women I've known for decades, choosing this time to share these episodes. If all women start to speak up, well, that's a decent "purpose" in my middle-aged, middle-class, white guy opinion.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 14, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			It’s wrong that the response to violence against women requires women to behave differently. In Clapham, police told women not to go out at night this week. Women are not the problem.

.
		
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And this is the bit that gets me. Everyone knows that women are not the problem, the murdering psychopath is the problem, so until he/she's been caught be sensible?
If someone got eaten by a shark at their local beach and the council advised them to stop swimming would they all get together and say swimmers are not the problem?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I don't think you need to have all of the answers before you protest? Sometimes just getting it into the public awareness is enough. I have seen a couple of horrible stories this week on my FB feed from women that are actually my friends, these are not random quotes or things that happened to a friend of a friend of a friend. These are women I've known for decades, choosing this time to share these episodes. If all women start to speak up, well, that's a decent "purpose" in my middle-aged, middle-class, white guy opinion.
		
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Stop making generic comments.
What do you want to hapien?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			There were two purposes tonight. To remember Sarah Everard, the victim, and then secondly to raise awareness of just how common it is for women to feel scared, for women to be attacked, for women to limit what they do because of fear? With the actions of the Met tonight, I'm not sure the first was truly achieved but I think the second has been.

These are the original 4 tweets from just a few days ago that kicked off this vigil/protest, the purposes seem fairly clear.

We believe that streets should be safe for women, regardless of what you wear, where you live or what time of day or night it is. We shouldn’t have to wear bright colours when we walk home and clutch our keys in our fists to feel safe

It’s wrong that the response to violence against women requires women to behave differently. In Clapham, police told women not to go out at night this week. Women are not the problem.

Come to the bandstand on Clapham Common at 6pm on Saturday the 13th of March to reclaim these streets and our public spaces. This event is for and about women, but open to all. Bring a light to remember those we’ve lost.

We’ve all been following the tragic case of Sarah Everard over the last week. This is a vigil for Sarah, but also for all women who feel unsafe, who go missing from our streets and who face violence every day.
		
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People get murdered almost every day in this country, Women, Men, children, we don't hold vigils every time it happens. What's different this time, they are all tragic and wasteful loss of lives.

You can't just say things like 'Women should be able to walk anywhere at night in safety' and think this will happen, that's naivety in the extreme.  Of course we would like anyone to be safe walking the streets but it has never been so and never will.

How do you propose these murders be stopped, that's the question that needs resolving.  Vigils and lights on phones will change nothing.


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## Oxfordcomma (Mar 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop making generic comments.
What do you want to hapien?
		
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All men to stop being obnoxious idiots to women. We all know that a tiny minority of guys are dicks, but it's becoming clear through this episode that if you're a woman, it's vastly more common than non-idiot men were aware of. No idea how we achieve this, but let's start talking about it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2021)

An appalling statistic!!

*20% of women will experience some type of sexual assault.*

_Ah but the vast majority of men don't behave badly towards women. _Or an alternative(uncomfortable) thought, how about reading that as the vast majority of men do nothing to stop it? To quote Blake, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." We (good) men do virtually nothing to stop what happens. We bump our gums about right and wrong, about protecting the fairer sex but just what do we do? We're careful about what we say and do and, occasionally, when a man crosses the line from decent behaviour we might jerk his chain, whilst many laugh(some embarrassingly).

_Ah but there's laws in place! Well whoopee-doo, there's laws in place. _The *20%* suggests those laws, whilst there are either not enforced strongly enough or just plain aren't good enough. But is it just about those laws? How about having respect, how about giving some support and how about at least having a positive discussion about change.

If it was our wife or daughter we'd be at the front of the parade banging the drum. Do we have to wait till its through our front door before we join the parade? Have the discussion now, and ask the difficult questions. Broaden that debate amongst friends. We're only the little people in the great scheme of things but when enough people join the parade, things will change. Those changes might only be small, but each change is a step in the right direction.

A few extra Bobbies on the beat in risky areas at the right time is a win for all of us. There's areas I wouldn't walk in, especially at night, but just saying there'll always be crime and we should risk assess does what to stop it or curtail it? And when the next block of streets are written off and our comfort zone grows ever smaller...


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 14, 2021)

There a 2 different but connected threads to this discussion. The murder and and general violence to women are things that are deep rooted and much more difficult to stop as there will always be psychopaths etc. 
But also this is all about listening and understanding a rare commodity nowadays. After an event like this it's always women that are told to modify their behaviours, generally by men. As can be seen on this thread men become tone deaf and belligerent. Maybe a more appropriate reaction would be to listen and have empathy to the fears women deal with on an almost daily basis and if they have ideas as to how they can generally feel more safe maybe awful incidents like this murder wouldn't resonate as strongly with them.
My wife and I spoke about this the other day and she, like Amanda, is a runner. She has so many stories of when she's felt scared and maybe just men taking the time to listen helps.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2021)

PR carnage last night. The vigil still happened, speeches given, crowds assembled. The police tried to move people on, they refused to leave. The police started to arrest people, the women kicked off. Now you have pictures of women, at a march against violence towards women, face down with cuffs on 😳. One of the pictures had the cuffs being applied by a female officer but that won't be how the story is played out.

Who would be a police officer there?


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			An appalling statistic!!

*20% of women will experience some type of sexual assault.*

Click to expand...

I have a problem with this number.  It was gathered on a stop and ask servey.  So your asking a woman a question in which she knows her answer effects potential changes.  At work we got asked if we've even been burnt through our fire kit.  Almost all of us said yes because the stuff we had was rubbish and was likely to happen at some point.
I don't know one women that has experienced sexual assault.   I do know women that would say yes because some blokes elbow brushed across their boob on a night out.     I remember one occasion when I popped a bottle of champagne and a little spilt on a woman's top.  I instinctively wiped it and realised after I was very close to some boob.  Definitely touched some side boob.  That doesn't make me a criminal.  It's just means I lack situational awareness.   For all I know I could be in that 20%
I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  20% is 1 in 5.    If that figure is correct then I wouldn't let my daughter out the house


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

If the people holding the vigil were more sensible there would be no criticism of the police today, to hold a large gathering and to put themselves and the police at risk is totally irresponsible in my eyes. 

Sometimes I get the impression that some of these protesting are “ all about me “ what do they really think standing holding a light is really going to achieve. 

Much more constructive ways to try and alter things like joining community groups and try and put pressure on government  to get more police on the streets etc.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			PR carnage last night. The vigil still happened, speeches given, crowds assembled. The police tried to move people on, they refused to leave. The police started to arrest people, the women kicked off. Now you have pictures of women, at a march against violence towards women, face down with cuffs on 😳. One of the pictures had the cuffs being applied by a female officer but that won't be how the story is played out.

Who would be a police officer there?
		
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Exactly it’s been handled very badly, but the police on the ground I’m sure wouldn’t want to be there to put themselves at risk.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 14, 2021)

Hate to say it but laws are pointless if there is no enforcement of them. Strangely the bad behaviour takes control when the laws are not enforced. 
The need to argue about a perpetrators rights when the evidence is too compelling has overwhelmed the system.
Problems are like onions you peel it back to root course, the root course here is human behaviour needs to be controlled because irrespective of gender there are people who are dreadful.
I would also point out that I would not walk around London after dark, I wouldn’t let my son, and my wife doesn’t need me to tell her it’s dangerous... so in the end we have not invested enough in prevention and the bad behaviour has got control.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Hate to say it but laws are pointless if there is no enforcement of them. Strangely the bad behaviour takes control when the laws are not enforced.
The need to argue about a perpetrators rights when the evidence is too compelling has overwhelmed the system.
Problems are like onions you peel it back to root course, the root course here is human behaviour needs to be controlled because irrespective of gender there are people who are dreadful.
I would also point out that I would not walk around London after dark, I wouldn’t let my son, and my wife doesn’t need me to tell her it’s dangerous... so in the end we have not invested enough in prevention and the bad behaviour has got control.
		
Click to expand...

The soultion is far too policitcal really 

But trying to keep it as netural as possible 

Fully fund the police 

Don't cut police number

Increase police numbers 

Stronger sentencing 

Police are the solution but they need far better support , funding and guidance from above 

That's as netural as I can go


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

Interesting difference between the Mets response and the response of the police in Glasgow who not only didn’t try and break up the gathering but even escorted them to the city Centre.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			There a 2 different but connected threads to this discussion. The murder and and general violence to women are things that are deep rooted and much more difficult to stop as there will always be psychopaths etc.
*But also this is all about listening and understanding a rare commodity nowadays*. After an event like this it's always women that are told to modify their behaviours, generally by men. As can be seen on this thread men become tone deaf and belligerent. Maybe a more appropriate reaction would be to listen and have empathy to the fears women deal with on an almost daily basis and if they have ideas as to how they can generally feel more safe maybe awful incidents like this murder wouldn't resonate as strongly with them.
My wife and I spoke about this the other day and she, like Amanda, is a runner. She has so many stories of when she's felt scared and maybe just men taking the time to listen helps.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, and quite ironic.  

A lot of this has stemmed from Baroness Jones suggestion that men should be curfewed in order to prevent these sort of crimes against women, in light of the suggestion that women stay off the streets in that area for their own safety, and the predictable outrage.  At the time that suggestion was made, the initial stages of the investigation, the police did not know who or what they were dealing with apart from the fact that they or it represented a danger to women.  Initial first safety step; suggest to the potential victims that they do not put themselves in harm's way.  Solid, sensible advice at that stage of the investigation, and not so much of a hardship at the time in my opinion, given that the leisure industry is shut & we are supposedly in lockdown.  As someone else said, if you've got a shark eating swimmers, don't swim in the sea because it's your right, change your exercise habits until the problem is dealt with.  Instead of accepting that advice in the spirit in which it was intended, it has been seized upon as further evidence of women as second class citizens and turned into a political football.  As a long term solution to the issue, telling women to keep off the streets is a wholly unacceptable solution and I'd join the march protesting about it; as a short term solution to the immediate problem I don't have an issue with it, and if there was something that made me more likely to be a victim of crime I'd be happy in the short term to take myself out of harm's way; I've done it for long enough to avoid a virus.

As to the solution, first we have to address the problem, and what, or possibly more pertinently who, exactly is the problem?

We know very little about this case apart from the name of the victim & the alleged perpetrator.  However the reports of this crime that I have seen are all at this stage missing something; any suggestion of a link between the victim and the alleged offender.  This would appear to be a stranger attack, and all the narrative I have seen infers how dangerous and unsafe women are on the streets and in public at the hands of strangers and what needs to be done in terms of new laws, bobbies on the beat, etc.  I would urge you to research the statistics from the ONS to see exactly what risk strangers present to women, compared to the risk from partners, ex-partners, family members and other known acquaintances.  This is not a stranger issue; it is a societal issue that is so deep-rooted that it will never go away without a major societal shift in parenting, education and awareness.  I'm not going to pretend I know the answer, it will take a better mind than mine, but I do not believe the answer lies in knee jerk reactions to this incident however tragic and unacceptable it is.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

Oxfordcomma said:



			We're all talking about it, that's a step forwards surely?
		
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The scrotes who attack women and hurt them, both indoors and outdoors, are not talking about it. They probably don't even know, and certainly don't care,
that we are talking about it.
This problem needs action, proper action by legislators and Courts, not by light waving lawbreakers putting people's lives at greater risk from Covid.

And, btw, the "regulations at short notice not subject...."?
I think you'll find the laws were passed by Parliament.
IIRC, presented on Monday and voted on Wednesday.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

There are lots of pictures and videos of the vigil last night and it’s quite clear that it’s not a good picture from all sides 

The peaceful vigil appears to be have been hijacked by people and there are plenty of videos showing it was far from peaceful, looks like a good number went over the line and the ACAB placards were out in force - looks like it was used as an anti police demonstration from some - and then the police have reacted which is right if it’s getting to public disorder levels but the pictures don’t make it look good at all and then certainly remind me of this


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are lots of pictures and videos of the vigil last night and it’s quite clear that it’s not a good picture from all sides

The peaceful vigil appears to be have been hijacked by people and there are plenty of videos showing it was far from peaceful, looks like a good number went over the line and the ACAB placards were out in force - looks like it was used as an anti police demonstration from some - and then the police have reacted which is right if it’s getting to public disorder levels but the pictures don’t make it look good at all and then certainly remind me of this
View attachment 35584

Click to expand...

What does ACAB mean


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 14, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			What does ACAB mean
		
Click to expand...

All cops are bastards.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are lots of pictures and videos of the vigil last night and it’s quite clear that it’s not a good picture from all sides

The peaceful vigil appears to be have been hijacked by people and there are plenty of videos showing it was far from peaceful, looks like a good number went over the line and the ACAB placards were out in force - looks like it was used as an anti police demonstration from some - and then the police have reacted which is right if it’s getting to public disorder levels but the pictures don’t make it look good at all and then certainly remind me of this
View attachment 35584

Click to expand...


Or this one Phil?


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## harpo_72 (Mar 14, 2021)

The police have to intervene, if they walked away it would be mob rule .. sorry but poor behaviour is not tolerated sitting down and discussing doesn’t stop the behaviour or walking away won’t stop the behaviour.
The vigil was a pretty short sighted strategy given the Covid situation.. there are other ways of dealing with this. 
One solution could be to ask to pay voluntary tax if you feel unsafe to increase police numbers... ( that will set everyone off 😉) or ask universities to pay for safety of the streets .. got some blinding suggestions.. Amazon to fund the police force so they can deliver safely ( getting almost gangster like here..)


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed, and quite ironic. 

A lot of this has stemmed from Baroness Jones suggestion that men should be curfewed in order to prevent these sort of crimes against women, in light of the suggestion that women stay off the streets in that area for their own safety, and the predictable outrage.  At the time that suggestion was made, the initial stages of the investigation, the police did not know who or what they were dealing with apart from the fact that they or it represented a danger to women.  Initial first safety step; suggest to the potential victims that they do not put themselves in harm's way.  Solid, sensible advice at that stage of the investigation, and not so much of a hardship at the time in my opinion, given that the leisure industry is shut & we are supposedly in lockdown.  As someone else said, if you've got a shark eating swimmers, don't swim in the sea because it's your right, change your exercise habits until the problem is dealt with.  Instead of accepting that advice in the spirit in which it was intended, it has been seized upon as further evidence of women as second class citizens and turned into a political football.  As a long term solution to the issue, telling women to keep off the streets is a wholly unacceptable solution and I'd join the march protesting about it; as a short term solution to the immediate problem I don't have an issue with it, and if there was something that made me more likely to be a victim of crime I'd be happy in the short term to take myself out of harm's way; I've done it for long enough to avoid a virus.

As to the solution, first we have to address the problem, and what, or possibly more pertinently who, exactly is the problem?

We know very little about this case apart from the name of the victim & the alleged perpetrator.  However the reports of this crime that I have seen are all at this stage missing something; any suggestion of a link between the victim and the alleged offender.  This would appear to be a stranger attack, and all the narrative I have seen infers how dangerous and unsafe women are on the streets and in public at the hands of strangers and what needs to be done in terms of new laws, bobbies on the beat, etc.  I would urge you to research the statistics from the ONS to see exactly what risk strangers present to women, compared to the risk from partners, ex-partners, family members and other known acquaintances.  This is not a stranger issue; it is a societal issue that is so deep-rooted that it will never go away without a major societal shift in parenting, education and awareness.  I'm not going to pretend I know the answer, it will take a better mind than mine, but I do not believe the answer lies in knee jerk reactions to this incident however tragic and unacceptable it is.
		
Click to expand...

Baroness Jones has stated that her suggestion wasn't serious but was meant to shine a light on what women are advised to do in these situations, it was to stimulate discussion. To move away from this particular case the discussion needs to be about how we make women feel safer in general which is clearly a big issue.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



*The scrotes who attack women and hurt them, both indoors and outdoors, are not talking about it. They probably don't even know, and certainly don't care,*
that we are talking about it.
This problem needs action, proper action by legislators and Courts, not by light waving lawbreakers putting people's lives at greater risk from Covid.

And, btw, the "regulations at short notice not subject...."?
I think you'll find the laws were passed by Parliament.
IIRC, presented on Monday and voted on Wednesday.
		
Click to expand...

that is the nail and the head. In any situation like this, the large majority of decent, law abiding people from the "castigated" large group that is called out by the "jump on the bandwaggon with often stupid and overgeneralised ideas" is never going to work. The problem people here will never engage and never care. We have to focus on sensible advice so "humans" restrict the potential to be exposed to teh situation, look for beefing up awareness in everyone who will listen about potential harm, improve street lighting, get much tougher on violent crime and lock people up for a lot longer, reform laws that aid the police and courts - and put more bobbies on the beae, especially bringing back tons more community police that can engage and get to know the public in all areas - that will lead to be better information and in turn better segregated and specialsed approaches of policing in different areas. And get rid of the elephant in the room that makes talking about certain problems politically impossible


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave said it for years, there is a part of society that is sick. This week womens safety is in the spotlight, and rightly so. We have had BLM due to racism, and rightly so. But the list goes on and on. How many children have been abused in care homes. Priests abusing children. Actresses being abused in exchange for roles. Politicians abusing kids. Saville, Maxwell, Glitter, Wests, Epstein, etc etc etc.
On a day that is a anniversary of the shocking events of happened at Dunblane, there is still a part of society that has no respect for people of any colour, age or sex.
		
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Watching the box last night and it looks like there’s a programme on the telly soon. I thinks it’s about the sexual abuse to young footballers. Add that to my list ☹️


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## PNWokingham (Mar 14, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			All cops are bastards.
		
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and the ironic thing is that a lot of the same people spouting the "all men solutions" to this tragic situation here would also support BLM, who want to defund the police


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			and the ironic thing is that a lot of the same people spouting the "all men solutions" to this tragic situation here would also support BLM, who want to defund the police
		
Click to expand...

And it's made political🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 14, 2021)

I wonder if it occu


harpo_72 said:



			The police have to intervene, if they walked away it would be mob rule .. sorry but poor behaviour is not tolerated sitting down and discussing doesn’t stop the behaviour or walking away won’t stop the behaviour.
The vigil was a pretty short sighted strategy given the Covid situation.. there are other ways of dealing with this.
One solution could be to ask to pay voluntary tax if you feel unsafe to increase police numbers... ( that will set everyone off 😉) or ask universities to pay for safety of the streets .. got some blinding suggestions.. Amazon to fund the police force so they can deliver safely ( getting almost gangster like here..)
		
Click to expand...

The police did not intervene in George Square, Glasgow last week, and that was just some numpty football fans celebrating.
I wonder if those attending the vigil were aware that their actions could lead to the death of London residents from Covid, probably not I would imagine.
So the whole concept of saving women's lives was lost on them.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Watching the box last night and it looks like there’s a programme on the telly soon. I thinks it’s about the sexual abuse to young footballers. Add that to my list ☹️
		
Click to expand...

Yes the list does go on and on the owners of your club come from a country where domestic violence is legal.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Baroness Jones has stated that her suggestion wasn't serious *but was meant to shine a light on what women are advised to do in these situations*, it was to stimulate discussion. To move away from this particular case the discussion needs to be about how we make women feel safer in general which is clearly a big issue.
		
Click to expand...

And again the point is missed; the advice was intended as a short term solution to the immediate problem, not a long term one.  Now that the believed source of the problem has been removed, the advice is no longer valid.

It has stimulated discussion about the unfairness of the advice, not the solution to the problem.  What is Baroness Jones doing to stimulate discussion to address the ACTUAL problem?


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			And again the point is missed; the advice was intended as a short term solution to the immediate problem, not a long term one.  Now that the believed source of the problem has been removed, the advice is no longer valid.

It has stimulated discussion about the unfairness of the advice, not the solution to the problem.  What is Baroness Jones doing to stimulate discussion to address the ACTUAL problem?
		
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to understand if you're being obtuse or genuinely don't get it but I'm not sure how else to explain it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			I have a problem with this number.  It was gathered on a stop and ask servey.  So your asking a woman a question in which she knows her answer effects potential changes.  At work we got asked if we've even been burnt through our fire kit.  Almost all of us said yes because the stuff we had was rubbish and was likely to happen at some point.
I don't know one women that has experienced sexual assault.   I do know women that would say yes because some blokes elbow brushed across their boob on a night out.     I remember one occasion when I popped a bottle of champagne and a little spilt on a woman's top.  I instinctively wiped it and realised after I was very close to some boob.  Definitely touched some side boob.  That doesn't make me a criminal.  It's just means I lack situational awareness.   For all I know I could be in that 20%
I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  20% is 1 in 5.    If that figure is correct then I wouldn't let my daughter out the house
		
Click to expand...

You honestly think you don’t know any women who have been sexually assaulted? Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent, I’d suggest saying that people wouldn’t feel comfortable telling you they’d been assaulted would be a more accurate representation of some of the women you know.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 14, 2021)

The vigil was always going to happen - even when it was called off by the organisers. They knew that, the police knew that and I can't help but think the latter handled it very badly indeed.

It seems the police were in a no win situation but I believe there were options to hold the vigil, with permission, in a more organised fashion with an attempt at social distancing etc but that was rejected. To then do anything but just monitor the situation and hold back from confrontation would surely have been the wisest course of action. If provoked then deal with that individual (s) if really necessary but with every effort to avoid a physical confrontation. Those using it as a platform for other agendas (what the hell is ACAB about, never heard of it before - beggars belief) should have been marched away and I would hope those there for genuine reasons as a vigil would have been delighted to see the back of the scum.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			The vigil was always going to happen - even when it was called off by the organisers. They knew that, the police knew that and I can't help but think the latter handled it very badly indeed.

It seems the police were in a no win situation but I believe there were options to hold the vigil, with permission, in a more organised fashion with an attempt at social distancing etc but that was rejected. To then do anything but just monitor the situation and hold back from confrontation would surely have been the wisest course of action. If provoked then deal with that individual (s) if really necessary but with every effort to avoid a physical confrontation. Those using it as a platform for other agendas (what the hell is ACAB about, never heard of it before - beggars belief) should have been marched away and I would hope those there for genuine reasons as a vigil would have been delighted to see the back of the scum.
		
Click to expand...

ACAB uses a controversial name to get attention but it means different things to different people. For me it’s about a lack of trust in the aims of the police and a belief that the police will stick together and protect their own even during times of wrong doing. There’s also an element of mistrust in why someone would want to be in the police in the first place from people who subscribe to ACAB. 

FYI - I don’t buy into ACAB though I have elements of mistrust based on things I have been told.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent,
		
Click to expand...

Wow, talk about taking something out of context and twisting it 🤦‍♂️
When I was about 14 I was standing on a crowded train when it suddenly braked. I instinctively put my hands out to stop myself falling and they landed squarely on the breasts of the woman facing me. Guess that makes me a criminal too in your eyes?


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Wow, talk about taking something out of context and twisting it 🤦‍♂️
When I was about 14 I was standing on a crowded train when it suddenly braked. I instinctively put my hands out to stop myself falling and they landed squarely on the breasts of the woman facing me. Guess that makes me a criminal too in your eyes?
		
Click to expand...

Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 14, 2021)

On a positive note. Walked the dogs and the weather pretty decent so decided I'd run later. Sent a message in the village running group and 7 replies within a few minutes. So meeting with Diana later for a safety in numbers trip across the muddy tracks


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, he did it intentionally without any intent to offend. Big difference.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You honestly think you don’t know any women who have been sexually assaulted? Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent, I’d suggest saying that people wouldn’t feel comfortable telling you they’d been assaulted would be a more accurate representation of some of the women you know.
		
Click to expand...

The point I'm trying to make is many people can recall a situation when they could think back and crowbar a situation into something that qualified as sexual assault to fit an agenda.  Personally I'd be more willing to accept reported figures of sexual assault rather than stop and ask. 
By the definition of sexual assault I myself have been a victim countless times.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I'm struggling to understand if you're being obtuse or genuinely don't get it but I'm not sure how else to explain it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not being obtuse, I was responding to the point that Baroness Jones was shining a light on, and providing ammunition for, people with a different agenda than the safety issue, that being the issue of inequality.  She highlighted the short term advice and did nothing to drive a long term solution.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion; not about how women are made to *feel* safer, but how they are *actually* made safer.  Making women safer will make them feel safer; making women feel safer may not actually make them safer; it could put them in more danger because they are less mindful of potential dangers, due to this new perception that they are safe.  

People's perceptions of issues are not necessarily the same as the issues and Baroness Jones soundbite politics have further muddied the waters for me, not provided a clearer path to the solution.  If you think she did the debate a great service that's your choice, but it's not mine.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Yes, he did it intentionally without any intent to offend. Big difference.
		
Click to expand...

I know it’s not ok to put my hands anywhere on a woman without her consent, let alone an area of her body that is considered sexual, even if it is to help mop up a drink I’ve spilled on her. If you think it is ok then you’re part of the problem these woman are trying to highlight.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			The point I'm trying to make is many people can recall a situation when they could think back and crowbar a situation into something that qualified as sexual assault to fit an agenda.  Personally I'd be more willing to accept reported figures of sexual assault rather than stop and ask.
By the definition of sexual assault I myself have been a victim countless times.
		
Click to expand...

So you admit that touching her like that was a form of sexual assault albeit there was no intention of harm on your part at that time?


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

drive4show said:



			They landed squarely on the breasts of the woman facing me.
		
Click to expand...

I'd love to have seen your face


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## chrisd (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.
		
Click to expand...


But with no ill intent as I read it, so no real difference to accidental


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			So you admit that touching her like that was a form of sexual assault albeit there was no intention of harm on your part at that time?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I do admit it.  I can't deny I touched her boob.   Let me ask you a question.  What do you think a judge will say about the situation?   I'll save you the time as I wouldn't have even made it to the back of a police car because common sense would have prevailed as well as 5 witnesses


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			I'd love to have seen your face
		
Click to expand...

Don't know who was more embarrassed! Fortunately we both saw the funny side and ended up laughing about it. Total accident, impulse reaction, no intent. I doubt Kellfire will understand that.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

chrisd said:



			But with no ill intent as I read it, so no real difference to accidental
		
Click to expand...

Intent didn’t matter in this case. Without consent he had no right to do that. That’s as black and white as it can possibly me. 

Put it his way, if I spilled my beer on your lap and started dabbing away to your crotch, would you lie back and let me finish?


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			Yes I do admit it.  I can't deny I touched her boob.   Let me ask you a question.  What do you think a judge will say about the situation?   I'll save you the time as I wouldn't have even made it to the back of a police car because common sense would have prevailed as well as 5 witnesses
		
Click to expand...

I think a judge would tell you that you had no right to touch a woman’s breasts like that.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Intent didn’t matter in this case. Without consent he had no right to do that. That’s as black and white as it can possibly me.

Put it his way, if I spilled my beer on your lap and started dabbing away to your crotch, would you lie back and let me finish?
		
Click to expand...

That's completely different and as usual you are twisting a story to suit your opinion.  I didn't dab away at her breasts and ask her to sit back.  If you opened a bottle of champagne and it sprayed on my cock then I wouldn't have anything to say if you acted in impulse and tried to sweep it away before it set in.   I would most likely have made a comment such as "while your down there"


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think a judge would tell you that you had no right to touch a woman’s breasts like that.
		
Click to expand...

It wouldn't have got to a judge because they haven't got a broom up their ass


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

You checked?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			The vigil was always going to happen - even when it was called off by the organisers. They knew that, the police knew that and I can't help but think the latter handled it very badly indeed.

It seems the police were in a no win situation but I believe there were options to hold the vigil, with permission, in a more organised fashion with an attempt at social distancing etc but that was rejected. To then do anything but just monitor the situation and hold back from confrontation would surely have been the wisest course of action. If provoked then deal with that individual (s) if really necessary but with every effort to avoid a physical confrontation. Those using it as a platform for other agendas (what the hell is ACAB about, never heard of it before - beggars belief) should have been marched away and I would hope those there for genuine reasons as a vigil would have been delighted to see the back of the scum.
		
Click to expand...

I think the final part is what you would hope that is exactly what would happen- trouble makers removed , peaceful vigil left to be finished - unfortunatly it all got mixed in and emotions on both sides took over -when you have baying crowds shouting “Police are Scum” and “F the police” in their face then it’s going to be hostile 

It’s a shame because it did hijack people just wanting to pay respects. 

I think it was all a case of everything that could go wrong did as well as the timing. If they had waited a week then it might not have been the same reaction 

When you add in people suggesting curfews and add in cabin fever it was boiling point 

I hope now though the overriding message is not forgotten and that’s to make our streets as safe as possible


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I know it’s not ok to put my hands anywhere on a woman without her consent, let alone an area of her body that is considered sexual, even if it is to help mop up a drink I’ve spilled on her. If you think it is ok then you’re part of the problem these woman are trying to highlight.
		
Click to expand...

Why does every single thread have to end up like this when you jump in with a big finger pointed at people.

Many actions from both male and female can be classed as sexual assault if done as a deliberate forced sexual action 

You don’t have to disect everything down to the finite level just so you can find guilt


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does every single thread have to end up like this when you jump in with a big finger pointed at people.

Many actions from both male and female can be classed as sexual assault if done as a deliberate forced sexual action

You don’t have to disect everything down to the finite level just so you can find guilt
		
Click to expand...

This is a clear cut example of the sort of behaviour that many women are trying to highlight as wrong and have felt unable to for a long time because of where the power lies in our society. It’s disgusting to even suggest what hovis did was in anyway acceptable.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

@Kellfire 
Enough now please
You have made your point


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			This is a clear cut example of the sort of behaviour that many women are trying to highlight as wrong and have felt unable to for a long time because of where the power lies in our society. It’s disgusting to even suggest what hovis did was in anyway acceptable.
		
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Well, the women that I did it to thought it was acceptable as I was trying to save her expensive top.  Don't think she was as sensitive as you and it was her boobs!!!!!


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a shame because it did hijack people just wanting to pay respects...
		
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Yep. It's a shame that the vigil seemed to have been hijacked by agitators and it's a shame that the police didn't anticipate it and plan accordingly. Any peaceful protest that results in the mess that last night appears to have turned into is going to cause embarrassment for the cops and their bosses.


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## Smiffy (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			If you think it is ok then you’re part of the problem these woman are trying to highlight.
		
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Dear oh dear oh dear.
Talk about taking things out of context.
Unless, of course Jack the Ripper, Dennis Nilson, Ted Bundy and Peter Sutcliffe all started out by brushing spilt champagne from a woman's blouse.
You couldn't make it up.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Kellfire
Enough now please
You have made your point
		
Click to expand...

Everything I am saying is well within the bounds of the topic of this post. I am pushing back against antiquated ideas that are at the core to this entire debate over what is and isn’t acceptable in how men treat women and the perceived safety that women feel. I’m only replying those people who are challenging my points made in reference to a member of this forum openly admitting he inappropriately touched a woman. I felt it was entirely reasonable to respond to those. I won’t reply to their justifications again but it’s important people realise what is and isn’t ok and look at it from modern standpoints, not those from the historic old boy’s club.


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## Smiffy (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Everything I am saying is well within the bounds of the topic of this post. I am pushing back against antiquated ideas that are at the core to this entire debate over what is and isn’t acceptable in how men treat women and the perceived safety that women feel. I’m only replying those people who are challenging my points made in reference to a member of this forum openly admitting he inappropriately touched a woman. I felt it was entirely reasonable to respond to those. I won’t reply to their justifications again but it’s important people realise what is and isn’t ok and look at it from modern standpoints, not those from the historic old boy’s club.
		
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No you're not


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

I'm not going to quote the earlier post, but the argument referring to the nature and relative rarity of sharks has been used as an argument against change for decades - gun control, child abuse...
Life isn't binary. There is a whole lot of nuance in between murdered and not murdered.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Everything I am saying is well within the bounds of the topic of this post. I am pushing back against antiquated ideas that are at the core to this entire debate over what is and isn’t acceptable in how men treat women and the perceived safety that women feel. I’m only replying those people who are challenging my points made in reference to a member of this forum openly admitting he inappropriately touched a woman. I felt it was entirely reasonable to respond to those. I won’t reply to their justifications again but it’s important people realise what is and isn’t ok and look at it from modern standpoints, not those from the historic old boy’s club.
		
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And in the process repeating yourself
your point has been made quite eloquently.


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## Billysboots (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.
		
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To nip this in the bud you perhaps need to look at the definition of sexual touching and understand it. For it to be a sexual assault the touching itself must be sexual in nature. Having read what Hovis has described it’s a huge leap of faith to suggest he sexually assaulted anyone.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Kellfire
Enough now please
You have made your point
		
Click to expand...

Kellfire rightly highlights the kind of issues and micro aggressions that women have to face on a daily basis but are often fearful of speaking up about, along comes a man to shut it down.

Did you even take a second to think about what you were doing?

Properly embarrassing.


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## Smiffy (Mar 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Having read what Hovis has described it’s a huge leap of faith to suggest he sexually assaulted anyone.
		
Click to expand...

Not to somebody on a mission...
🥴🥴🥴🥴


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			To nip this in the bud you perhaps need to look at the definition of sexual touching and understand it. For it to be a sexual assault the touching itself must be sexual in nature. Having read what Hovis has described it’s a huge leap of faith to suggest he sexually assaulted anyone.
		
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I refer you to my eloquently put rebuttals above.


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## Captainron (Mar 14, 2021)

I’m genuinely concerned for some peoples minds in this thread. 

The extrapolation of violence from innocuous actions is mind blowing.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Yep. It's a shame that the vigil seemed to have been hijacked by agitators and it's a shame that *the police didn't anticipate it and plan accordingly*. Any peaceful protest that results in the mess that last night appears to have turned into is going to cause embarrassment for the cops and their bosses.
		
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What, by refusing to give it a permit perhaps?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olidarity-and-to-pay-tribute-to-sarah-everard

"Tensions were high before the vigil, *which had officially been cancelled after the **Metropolitan police** refused to give the organisers a permit*."

The vigil as such didn't exist as it had been cancelled.


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## Billysboots (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I refer you to my eloquently put rebuttals above. 

Click to expand...

Are you arguing that he sexually assaulted someone? Yes or no?

Because the law will tell you he didn’t.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Are you arguing that he sexually assaulted someone? Yes or no?

Because the law will tell you he didn’t.
		
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Stop trying to bait me into responding to things I have been asked not to reply to by a moderator.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Kellfire rightly highlights the kind of issues and micro aggressions that women have to face on a daily basis but are often fearful of speaking up about, along comes a man to shut it down.

Did you even take a second to think about what you were doing?

Properly embarrassing.
		
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I'm out of here!!!!


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## chrisd (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Intent didn’t matter in this case. Without consent he had no right to do that. That’s as black and white as it can possibly me.

Put it his way, if I spilled my beer on your lap and started dabbing away to your crotch, would you lie back and let me finish?
		
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Intent always matters.

 Murder with intent is murder, without intent is manslaughter- same outcome different penalty


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## Billysboots (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Stop trying to bait me into responding to things I have been asked not to reply to by a moderator.
		
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Not trying to bait you, and I’m sorry if it came across as such. What I’m trying to do is draw a line under it by explaining how the law regards the behaviour described. It’s not a sexual assault.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 14, 2021)

Well if this thread is a full reflection of the population, as a middle aged man I will ignore everything going on around me when I'm outside my own 4 walls for fear of being accused of something I am not. 
If trying to help someone or coming to someones aid when they cry for help is going to land me with a label I dont want then sorry, I am ignoring everone and everything out there.
Perhaps all this overly sensitive reaction and labelling is part of the problem, that real decent people are afraid to actually come to someones help for the fear of being accused of something.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, by refusing to give it a permit perhaps?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olidarity-and-to-pay-tribute-to-sarah-everard

"Tensions were high before the vigil, *which had officially been cancelled after the **Metropolitan police** refused to give the organisers a permit*."

The vigil as such didn't exist as it had been cancelled.
		
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Thing is men have been asked to listen to the problem.
But those people who attended the illegal gathering didn’t listen to the Police or a High Court Judge.
It put the Police in an impossible situation and I am not surprised by the outcome.
It’s turning what should be a serious problem into a who did what.
Anyone there was breaking the law and putting lives at risk.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Intent always matters.

Murder with intent is murder, without intent is manslaughter- same outcome different penalty
		
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As above. Stop trying to bait.


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, by refusing to give it a permit perhaps?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olidarity-and-to-pay-tribute-to-sarah-everard

"Tensions were high before the vigil, *which had officially been cancelled after the **Metropolitan police** refused to give the organisers a permit*."

The vigil as such didn't exist as it had been cancelled.
		
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No. I mean by briefing their officers to try not drag any women to the ground and handcuff them in front of the world's media while they're protesting about violence against women.
The negative effects of the police action will probably outweigh the positive effects of clamping down on the rulebreaking. 
I wasn't there, but it looks like a night where discretion and proportionally should have been on everyone's minds.


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## chrisd (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			As above. Stop trying to bait.
		
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Just answering things posted that are blatantly wrong !


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## harpo_72 (Mar 14, 2021)

As a teenager I have been inappropriately touched by women... I keep my hands to myself as was the guidance of my parents.. 
Life happens not too precious about that, but the stuff I don’t like is verbal bullying and been on the end of that from all genders, except with males one has a solution, but with women you apparently have to accept it ... so both genders do stuff that is inappropriate and one is not better than the other, they just work differently/ have different aggression strategies.. There are just horrible people


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a shame because it did hijack people just wanting to pay respects.

What about respect for the police and wider community potentially putting them at risk? 

There are other ways to show respect, from what I have seen and heard from the media very little blame is being apportioned to these breaking COVID rules. 

If these people attending were more responsible and thought of the wider picture non of this would have happened.
		
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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

Re the vigil thing, I don't understand why they didn't just wait a couple of weeks until the lockdown is eased.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			No. I mean by briefing their officers to try not drag any women to the ground and handcuff them in front of the world's media while they're protesting about violence against women.
The negative effects of the police action will probably outweigh the positive effects of clamping down on the rulebreaking.
I wasn't there, but it looks like a night where discretion and proportionally should have been on everyone's minds.
		
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And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night.  If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Well if this thread is a full reflection of the population, as a middle aged man I will ignore everything going on around me when I'm outside my own 4 walls for fear of being accused of something I am not.
If trying to help someone or coming to someones aid when they cry for help is going to land me with a label I dont want then sorry, I am ignoring everone and everything out there.
Perhaps all this overly sensitive reaction and labelling is part of the problem, that real decent people are afraid to actually come to someones help for the fear of being accused of something.
		
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Spot on 
I saw a young woman struggling with a puncture on her car in Tesco car park.
I sat in my car thinking shall I go and help her!!
I did go and change her wheel for her but was a bit wary.
My mum always said to me “if you can help someone you should”
That’s just how I am and really can’t see me changing.

I also helped a young man recently change his wheel as he had never done it himself he didn’t know how to.

But the way things are going people will not help each other judging by some of the comments on here that could leave you open to accusations.
Sad really.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Not trying to bait you, and I’m sorry if it came across as such. What I’m trying to do is draw a line under it by explaining how the law regards the behaviour described. It’s not a sexual assault.
		
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It didn't, it's someone trying to get round the fact that the mods have told him to stop.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It didn't, it's someone trying to get round the fact that the mods have told him to stop.
		
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I have referred people back to my previous replies which show my opinion. I’m not trying to get around anything. My views haven’t changed.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have referred people back to my previous replies which show my opinion. I’m not trying to get around anything. My views haven’t changed.
		
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Your opinion is valid but the lads who know are just explaining what the law is.


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night.  If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.
		
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I get the impression you're a retired cop.
At football matches, do the police wade into the crowd nicking people every time somebody swears or throws something?
That's the kind of discretion and proportionally I'm referring to.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			I get the impression you're a retired cop.
At football matches, do the police wade into the crowd nicking people every time somebody swears *or throws something*?
That's the kind of discretion and proportionally I'm referring to.
		
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If they could be identified, yes we did when matches were policed.  I've even taken one in when I was attending a match as a spectator.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			There a 2 different but connected threads to this discussion. The murder and and general violence to women are things that are deep rooted and much more difficult to stop as there will always be psychopaths etc.
But also this is all about listening and understanding a rare commodity nowadays. After an event like this it's always women that are told to modify their behaviours, generally by men. *As can be seen on this thread men become tone deaf and belligerent. *Maybe a more appropriate reaction would be to listen and have empathy to the fears women deal with on an almost daily basis and if they have ideas as to how they can generally feel more safe maybe awful incidents like this murder wouldn't resonate as strongly with them.
My wife and I spoke about this the other day and she, like Amanda, is a runner. She has so many stories of when she's felt scared and maybe just men taking the time to listen helps.
		
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That bold is out of order. Nobody on this thread is tone deaf or belligerent(sic)
about the problems that many women face at some time from *some *men.
Just because some of us do not agree that blaming all men, or at the least demanding that all men accept and acknowledge that "blame", is a proper way to help solve this eternal problem.
Rather than break an important law to support by an ineffective means the plight of women - by which I mean that I acknowledge ( as all the men on this forum undoubtedly do) that there are everyday risks faced by women re men, that men don't face re women- it would be better to demand of the legislators and the legal profession a change in laws so that the "bad " men are properly dealt with.
That is the only way that present danger levels will change. 
You will never convince all men to have one correct attitude to women, just as you will not convince all people to have one attitude to almost all things.
Economics, religion, golf even😀
The best you can do if have a fair system of justice, fair to the innocent and meek, as much as to the accused, that will adequately control the bad ones.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Kellfire rightly highlights the kind of issues and micro aggressions that women have to face on a daily basis but are often fearful of speaking up about, along comes a man to shut it down.

Did you even take a second to think about what you were doing?

Properly embarrassing.
		
Click to expand...

It’s my job as moderator to keep order and to “advise” members if their posts are causing issues.

This is a classic example of one member posting an opinion that some found a bit extreme, reposting it and continuing to repost that opinion.

This has the effect of causing unrest and at that point I stepped in and asked him to stop repeating himself and that he had made his point.

Just another day in Modland

You’re welcome


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s my job as moderator to keep order and to “advise” members if their posts are causing issues.

This is a classic example of one member posting an opinion that some found a bit extreme, reposting it and continuing to repost that opinion.

This has the effect of causing unrest and at that point I stepped in and asked him to stop repeating himself and that he had made his point.

Just another day in Modland

You’re welcome
		
Click to expand...

I even accept this because it was repetitive but my question would be why aren’t you asking those posting the extreme view about touching a woman to stop?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I even accept this because it was repetitive but my question would be why aren’t you asking those posting the extreme view about touching a woman to stop?
		
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We have a report function, feel free to use it


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We have a report function, feel free to use it
		
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When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			And what happens when the limits of discretion & proportionality are reached, as appears apparent they were last night.  If someone needs to be arrested because they have ignore the reasoning & the warnings, and then refuse to go quietly, what do you do then?

And discretion & proportionality goes both ways.
		
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This is it, it’s like children looking for the line to be drawn and then when it’s crossed getting upset that the punishment is delivered .. nah give the police some slack here, if they hadn’t had the vigil it wouldn’t have happened.. simple.
Look to resolve this issue properly


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are lots of pictures and videos of the vigil last night and it’s quite clear that it’s not a good picture from all sides

*The peaceful vigil appears to be have been hijacked by people and there are plenty of videos showing it was far from peaceful, looks like a good number went over the line and the ACAB placards were out in force* - looks like it was used as an anti police demonstration from some - and then the police have reacted which is right if it’s getting to public disorder levels but the pictures don’t make it look good at all and then certainly remind me of this
View attachment 35584

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Well, there's a surprise!!!


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## SaintHacker (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because you are the only person in the world, male or female, that thinks accidentally brushing the side of a womans breast when you're blatantly trying to help her after spilling something on her is sexual assault?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			When I have in the past I never get any sort of reply to let me know if action has or will be taken but I get your point, cheers. In this case I didn’t deem anything worthy of reporting but I just felt it rather one sided to ask me to stop and not everyone.
		
Click to expand...

You have been repeating an accusation at someone that's incorrect and just don't seem able to understand that.  He explained he had instinctively reached out to wipe some spilled drink and unfortunately brushed his hand on a woman's breast but you keep suggesting he assaulted her.  Can you really not understand the difference between the two.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

Ok guys, this tooing and froing has been done to death

Time to stop please


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			ACAB uses a controversial name to get attention but it means different things to different people. For me it’s about a lack of trust in the aims of the police and a belief that the police will stick together and protect their own even during times of wrong doing. There’s also an element of mistrust in why someone would want to be in the police in the first place from people who subscribe to ACAB.

FYI - I don’t buy into ACAB though I have elements of mistrust based on things I have been told.
		
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Oh, wonderful!  You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
🙄🙄🙄


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Yep. It's a shame that the vigil seemed to have been hijacked by agitators and it's a shame that the police didn't anticipate it and plan accordingly. Any peaceful protest that results in the mess that last night appears to have turned into is going to cause embarrassment for the cops and their bosses.
		
Click to expand...

Rich, come on. What "plan accordingly "do you think that should be?

Loud hailer policeman.  .." ok,we know most of you are peaceful, but some of you are going to hijack this vigil. Will those in the latter group please move over to the right and remain there while we surround you with friendly officers who will try to answer your concerns."

Perhaps, that is too sarcastic, but really, how could you plan accordingly the way you infer, which is to deal with the miscreants separately from, and without interfering with or involving the peaceful vigillers.😊


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If they could be identified, yes we did when matches were policed.  I've even taken one in when I was attending a match as a spectator.
		
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Who rolled their eyes most - your colleagues or your friends?


Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, wonderful!  You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
🙄🙄🙄
		
Click to expand...

He quite clearly didn't, for what it's worth.


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Perhaps, that is too sarcastic, but really, how could you plan accordingly the way you infer, which is to deal with the miscreants separately from, and without interfering with or involving the peaceful vigillers.😊
		
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The same way they do at football matches and large protests. Facilitate the activity, gather evidence, scoop up the wrongdoers later, if necessary.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 14, 2021)

I do think most women would recognise an accidental brush versus a pervy touch up. Of course it's true to say laying hands on someone is always a bit risky but sometimes an instinctive gesture as described isn't something I'd consider an issue. I would say that if the spill had been in my lap then any hands on would be crossing the line as it would not be an accidental mis-placed went for the shoulder/arm etc and got the boob instead! I've accidentally touched women's boobs on more than one occasion - they can sometimes just get in the way and a turn towards me just as I was brushing an insect of their arm or similar can result in an inadvertant mis-placed contact!

I recall my Dad - a gentleman amongst gentleman, stopping to help a woman who had broken down and coming home aghast at the fear and panic his offer caused. It's such a tricky, sensitive issue and sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Everything I am saying is well within the bounds of the topic of this post. I am pushing back against antiquated ideas that are at the core to this entire debate over what is and isn’t acceptable in how men treat women and the perceived safety that women feel. I’m only replying those people who are challenging my points made in reference to a member of this forum openly admitting he inappropriately touched a woman. I felt it was entirely reasonable to respond to those. I won’t reply to their justifications again but it’s important people realise what is and isn’t ok and look at it from modern standpoints, not those from the historic old boy’s club.
		
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Look, answer me this.  Boy asks girl out , they go on a date. He's a bit shy type, but they go out again ( and maybe again).
However, at some point, he kisses her, cos it seems opportune and he thinks he has the right signals.
He has not asked her specifically if he can do that, before he does it. 

Has he indecently assaulted her and committed a crime?

Your posts suggest you may think he has. So tell us what he has to do, before trying to kiss her.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			The same way they do at football matches and large protests. Facilitate the activity, gather evidence, scoop up the wrongdoers later, if necessary.
		
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do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, wonderful!  You spend the first paragraph telling us why you support ACAB, then try to convince us you don't. " though I have elements....."
🙄🙄🙄
		
Click to expand...

I explained what it was and what the movement means in my understanding. I don’t believe all cops are bastards. That’s fairly simple to understand.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, answer me this.  Boy asks girl out , they go on a date. He's a bit shy type, but they go out again ( and maybe again).
However, at some point, he kisses her, cos it seems opportune and he thinks he has the right signals.
He has not asked her specifically if he can do that, before he does it.

Has he indecently assaulted her and committed a crime?

Your posts suggest you may think he has. So tell us what he has to do, before trying to kiss her.
		
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You’re comparing completely different scenarios. An unexpected touch of a woman’s breast is not an equivalent to a misread situation during a date. Please don’t insult this debate by suggesting it is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2021)

Strikes me that too many men look at their words, actions and behaviour from their own perspective rather than from the woman's.  We do not know her background and experiences, and whilst we might know our intentions or inadvertent mistakes, she does not.  My careless word or accidental or thoughtless action might seem insignificant or even embarrassing to me, but it might feel very different to the girl or the woman.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Possibly because you are the only person in the world, male or female, that thinks accidentally brushing the side of a womans breast when you're blatantly trying to help her after spilling something on her is sexual assault?
		
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No. what's worrying is that he isn't the only one .


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You’re comparing completely different scenarios. An unexpected touch of a woman’s breast is not an equivalent to a misread situation during a date. Please don’t insult this debate by suggesting it is.
		
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How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?


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## patricks148 (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.
		
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different police forces of course but only last week the police stood by and did nothing while lots of Rangers fans gathered in George Sq and outside the stadium in Glasgow.

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women


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## Rlburnside (Mar 14, 2021)

I remember walking late at night in Edingburgh with my wife, there was a lone woman obviously the worse for drink on the opposite side of the road about 30 yards ahead, there were 2 men that approached her and started to accost her we quickened our pace and I started shouting thankfully they took fright and ran away. 
Dread to think what could have happened 

My youngest daughter was at uni in Edingburgh and it always worried me when she would make her way home, I always impressed on her to get a taxi and don’t walk home alone, but I’m sure there’s times she ignored this. 

It’s horrible to say this to a young girl basically telling them there are some evil men out there.


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## patricks148 (Mar 14, 2021)

Lets stick to the discussion rather than 20 questions for Kellfire.

And lets not forget a young woman was abducted and murdered only a few days ago. lets not forget that


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?
		
Click to expand...

No they’re both as bad as each other but I do feel that a man wouldn’t feel as threatened by it and would be more likely to feel flattered because of historic norms. It’s a disgusting thing to do.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?
		
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Usually yes,  but it would depend on the power dynamic


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Usually yes,  but it would depend on the power dynamic
		
Click to expand...

Yes it's a funny one. I wouldn't dream of grabbing a womans bottom but I've had mine pinched plenty of times, it didn't really bother me at all to be honest.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Strikes me that too many men look at their words, actions and behaviour from their own perspective rather than from the woman's.  We do not know her background and experiences, and whilst we might know our intentions or inadvertent mistakes, she does not.  My careless word or accidental or thoughtless action might seem insignificant or even embarrassing to me, but it might feel very different to the girl or the woman.
		
Click to expand...

Hogie- are you aware of what you are saying here. The first sentence has everything to do with what the law calls "intent".
The intent is the accused's intent.

Intent is necessary in most criminal offences. In some it is specifically mentioned.
Hovis  intended no sexual action. If he were on trial for indecent assault it would be necessary to prove he intended that sexual assault, not merely that he intended to touch her. That would be the vital issue.
Legally, that  would not take into account ( nor should it, ) what the woman thought about it.
I know, like Amanda says,  in some, quite a lot, of events there can be intention disguised as accident, and in Hovis' case there would be a need for complete honesty from the lady. She would no doubt be asked precisely whether it was accident or accidentally on purpose, etc.
However, from what you have said, if you and Kellfire were on the jury.......Hmmmm😊😊


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## SteveW86 (Mar 14, 2021)

Don’t forget in these times, it could equally be a man grabbing another mans bum, or a woman grabbing another woman.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Don’t forget in these times, it could equally be a man grabbing another mans bum, or a woman grabbing another woman.
		
Click to expand...

Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that


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## Ser Shankalot (Mar 14, 2021)

I discovered this forum about a year ago, and have really enjoyed following the discussions. I thought the H4H day was superb and looking forward to more. However I have to say this discussion has left me bewildered.

Golf is a game of judgement. We self-police the formal rules, and expect to follow the informal rules of etiquette. We often expect to be in the 4 hr company of strangers, and welcome the experience good or bad. There is almost never an appeal to a 3rd umpire. But in discussions like this,  judgement and nuance seem to vanish. Everything is black or white, my way or highway.

You'd have to be obtuse not to accept that micro-agressions happen all the time, and often in our direct experience. And that it is more than unpleasant for the victim. But we're all social animals and crave inter-personal interaction - the lock-down has taught us that if anything. And the lubricant for these social interactions is that we have the judgement to know when something is innocent, funny, flirtatious, exploitive or abusive. Otherwise we'd be in never-ending physical fights. We know, and the people around know, when something is creepy. 

So I don't want to add to the ridiculous discussion on champagne on shirts - it infantalises the issue. I think Amanda's story of feeling uncomfortable when running is much more pertinent. And it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. What man has not worried about the safety of their female family or friends late at night in a way that is different from their worry about other men? I vaguely recall there was a thread a number of months ago but solo golfers, and a female member of this forum wrote that she would often like to play solo but won't as part of her course felt too isolated. So something I can do without a second thought and enjoy, a fellow golfer feels uncomfortable from her physical well-being. And she is not paranoid in feeling that way. That is something we should address as a society.


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## patricks148 (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that 

Click to expand...

did you feel in danger or threatened by that though?

i've had similar experiences and none every made me feel in danger or threatened where as a woman may well do, its all about looking at it from a diff perspective.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you feel about men grabbing a woman's bottom on a night out and women grabbing men's bottoms on a night out?
Is one worse than the other?
		
Click to expand...

Men have a knack of shrugging most things off.
Women do not, they are psychologically different.

I was raped at 12 by my younger brothers  18 year old babysitter.
Now that may sound shocking but to me it’s brings an emotion similar to one of those toe the line jokes. Pretty laughable and just think wow what a wrong’un!
Everybody knows, and it’s accepted - it happened, whoopty woo. Life goes on.

My first girlfriend was a rape victim from her uncle. She was psychologically a mess, and was pent up and kept inside of her head. 

We can’t look at this from a mans perspective. We are different.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			did you feel in danger or threatened by that though?
		
Click to expand...

I'll admit, for split second I felt a bit uncomfortable as I wasn't sure if the fella was trying it on or knew I was straight and trying to have a laugh.
And yes, I was in a gay nightclub...don't ask


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			do the police stand there and watch mayhem go unabated. Criminal damage, Assaults upon them or others. Not having a clue how or when the offenders may decide to stop?
And let us not forget that in fact,, all those gathering were gathering unlawfully because of the unprecedented situation of Covid.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have just watched BBC news and a lot squaring up to the police were men.
Faces covered with balaclavas .
They also showed a woman being manhandled ( deliberate use of manhandled) but it was quite clear it was two policewomen who had hold of her.
The press need to tone it down as well.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I do think most women would recognise an accidental brush versus a pervy touch up. Of course it's true to say laying hands on someone is always a bit risky but sometimes an instinctive gesture as described isn't something I'd consider an issue. I would say that if the spill had been in my lap then any hands on would be crossing the line as it would not be an accidental mis-placed went for the shoulder/arm etc and got the boob instead! I've accidentally touched women's boobs on more than one occasion - they can sometimes just get in the way and a turn towards me just as I was brushing an insect of their arm or similar can result in an inadvertant mis-placed contact!

I recall my Dad - a gentleman amongst gentleman, stopping to help a woman who had broken down and coming home aghast at the fear and panic his offer caused. It's such a tricky, sensitive issue and sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I think there are different kinds of women .

1 would be happy he tried to help save her top from staining.
2 might think what’s his game then realise he is trying to help.
3 just offended by anything and would accuse him of sexual assault.

And a lot more in between 

Re your dad .
I have stopped to help people in the past ,but am afraid now I would think long and hard because you don’t know what kind of reaction you will get.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I have just watched BBC news and a lot squaring up to the police were men.
Faces covered with balaclavas .
They also showed a woman being manhandled ( deliberate use of manhandled) but it was quite clear it was two policewomen who had hold of her.
The press need to tone it down as well.
		
Click to expand...

So not quite the "pure as the driven snow", peaceful demonstration that we were led to believe then?  Who'd have thought it.  And the usual suspects out to make mileage out of it.


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## patricks148 (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I'll admit, for split second I felt a bit uncomfortable as I wasn't sure if the fella was trying it on or knew I was straight and trying to have a laugh.
And yes, I was in a gay nightclub...don't ask 

Click to expand...

 a few of us used to go to mixed gay nights in London late 80's early 90's, they were great, better than having to drive around the M25 waiting to be told where the rave was on some pirate radio. Bouncers started to get wise to loads of straight guys going so you had to camp it up a bit, i remember wearing my TT skin suite a few times, same result


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hogie- are you aware of what you are saying here. The first sentence has everything to do with what the law calls "intent".
The intent is the accused's intent.

Intent is necessary in most criminal offences. In some it is specifically mentioned.
Hovis  intended no sexual action. If he were on trial for indecent assault it would be necessary to prove he intended that sexual assault, not merely that he intended to touch her. That would be the vital issue.
Legally, that  would not take into account ( nor should it, ) what the woman thought about it.
I know, like Amanda says,  in some, quite a lot, of events there can be intention disguised as accident, and in Hovis' case there would be a need for complete honesty from the lady. She would no doubt be asked precisely whether it was accident or accidentally on purpose, etc.
However, from what you have said, if you and Kellfire were on the jury.......Hmmmm😊😊
		
Click to expand...

I very deliberately made my comment generic and did not address any specific example.   In fact any argument that refers back onto what is legal and illegal behaviour rather misses my point - indeed it rather _highlights _the point I made, and in saying that I think it should be obvious without reference to any example so far discussed.

And I can add that I have just had a chat with my 25yr old daughter on this whole topic - she had much to say on it.  But she described how it is the case that every time she goes out for a run with another female friend (and that is almost daily), men or lads driving past leer at them, sound their horn or call out sexual comments to them - every single time.   And though that it might seem to the perpetrators that their words and actions might seem like harmless male fun and badinage what she made very clear was how upsetting, unsettling and irritating it can be when men do this.

This had gone on for a long time.  One of the earliest she recalled to me clearly was when she was 16 and walking home from school along the main road very close to home.  The driver of white van stared at her as he passed and she could see him making some comment.  He then turned up the first side road only 100yds further on.  My daughter ran the 400yds home as fast as she could - fearful that the driver might have got out and had some intentions towards her.  That van driver's stare and comment were to him completely innocent - of course he had no intent - but they instilled fear in my daughter.  That's what I mean by men needing to see their actions words and behaviour through the eyes of the girl or woman.

She did also say that just a couple of days ago she and a pal were standing at traffic lights and some teenage lads in a van called out to her that she had a big bunda.  She smiled as she told me this as she said she had to ask another couple at the lights if they knew what her bunda was as she didn't - they didn't and neither did I - but she has now told me.

She is pleased that this is now being discussed as she finds what she and her friends have to put up with as being completely unacceptable.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why does every single thread have to end up like this when you jump in with a big finger pointed at people.

Many actions from both male and female can be classed as sexual assault if done as a deliberate forced sexual action

You don’t have to disect everything down to the finite level just so you can find guilt
		
Click to expand...

I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			different police forces of course but only last week the police stood by and did nothing while lots of Rangers fans gathered in George Sq and outside the stadium in Glasgow.

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women
		
Click to expand...

Different countries.  Different forces.  Different laws.  Different circumstances. One driven by celebration, one driven by anger. And only one of the two been up in front of the High Court in the lead up as far as I am aware.  Other than that, completely comparable events.

And in view of the comments by another poster regarding men in balaclavas confronting the police, maybe the comment about choosing to wade in with force for a few women was not entirely accurate.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.
		
Click to expand...

That being the case Brian, I'm grateful I never had to use a defribilator on a woman given the training instructions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370961184640356352
This is the lady that is in the photograph 

So was she there for the young lady who lost her life or there to protest against the police and wants to see more protests


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

its doesn't look good that they were happy to stand by while lots of guys ran amuck yet chose to wade it with force for a few women[/QUOTE]


If you watch the news on BBC this afternoon there were a lot of men in balaclavas confronting the police not just women at this Vigil.
I know for a fact lots of women were at the Rangers celebration,my two nieces were there and sent me pictures with their female friends.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			That being the case Brian, I'm grateful I never had to use a defribilator on a woman given the training instructions.
		
Click to expand...

Especially if she is wearing an underwire bra.
But without touching how would you know.
I don’t envy anyone put in this place.
But if she needs a defib she is in big trouble.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve done what Hovis has done, and been horrified by it. However, does the judge go on the actions or what you might or might not have been thinking? Common sense doesn’t always figure in the application of the law, and this is a prime example.

Hovis, like me, had no intention of making any sort of sexual advance but we ‘invaded’ someone’s (very) personal space in an area that could lead to a claim of sexual assault.

I’d say we didn’t have a leg to stand, especially if the person the receiving end made a big thing about it. Guilty, no. Guilty based on evidence, yes.
		
Click to expand...

Common sense doesn't come into the law. Guilty or not should (and the judge will reinforce it, ) depend on the evidence.
You say Hovis and you had no intent . You are not guilty.
The circumstances would determine whether ,when you say you had no intent, you were telling the truth, or could be telling the truth.
The other persons  there are witnesses. From your demeanour they would have formed an pinion as to your intent, or lack of it.  What they did or said at the  time would be highly relevant. What they say in Court as to what they and others, including the woman did or said at the time would be important.
Was there an immediate complaint or not?  Etc etc.
And if there is the slightest doubt about your intent, then it's not guilty.
Intent is very hard to prove. You are trying to prove what someone was thinking.
It is not for you or Hovis to prove you didn't intend anything sexual.
It is for the prosecution to prove that you did.
As Descartes said,   "All actions in themselves are indifferent. What makes them good or evil is the intention"


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2021)

Have we become a society that can choose which laws to accept and which ones we can break. Police once again in a no win situation and, as always there are the rent a demo mob.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have we become a society that can choose which laws to accept and which ones we can break. Police once again in a no win situation and, as always there are the rent a demo mob.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think we have , some of us anyway!( Dominic Cummings comes to mind) .
People are so arrogant now they think the law dosnt apply to them.
And it’s not just the rich.

Nearly all demonstrations now are high jacked by a vocal minority of some sort.


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## Smiffy (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Aaargh, I had my ar$e felt by a bloke as well, completely forgot about that 

Click to expand...

I remember that Forest Pines meet.
Good, wasn't it?

😋😋😋


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

Something to lighten the mood


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## Smiffy (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This is the lady that is in the photograph
So was she there for the young lady who lost her life or there to protest against the police and wants to see more protests
		
Click to expand...

I've watched different videos of the "vigil" and it's patently obvious that some were there just to cause trouble and carry on their smear/hate campaign against the police. Sadly, it was always on the cards


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

This isn't posted as a dig at Corbyn but to show how innocently these things can happen.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This isn't posted as a dig at Corbyn but to show how innocently these things can happen.







Click to expand...

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 That's hilarious


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## MegaSteve (Mar 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This isn't posted as a dig at Corbyn but to show how innocently these things can happen.







Click to expand...


Then why post it?  Unsurprising that a thread full of posts from blokes in full denial a cheapshot comes along...


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## USER1999 (Mar 14, 2021)

Hang him.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 14, 2021)

This was posted on Facebook by a female lawyer friend of mine, not sure how much of a joke it is intended to be.


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## RichA (Mar 14, 2021)

For the last week, the main news story has been about the abduction and murder of a young woman in London.
This post was started yesterday by a man who, after talking to his wife and daughter, found himself thinking that men in general could think a bit harder about their attitudes towards women.
After 24 hours of denials, arguments and diversions, it's ended up with funnies about sexual assault.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370961184640356352
This is the lady that is in the photograph

So was she there for the young lady who lost her life or there to protest against the police and wants to see more protests
		
Click to expand...

These ‘protests’ have nothing to do with justice or even the tragic Ms Everard herself or what happened to her....Just like the Floyd George Circus, this is about narcissism, point scoring, virtue signalling, getting attention, and having a ’cause’ and causing trouble just for the sake of it. This is not about her – Ms. Everard – and it never was. This is about them, it’s always about them. Entitled look at me scum.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			That being the case Brian, I'm grateful I never had to use a defribilator on a woman given the training instructions.
		
Click to expand...

I think if someone is unconscious and you're applying defib pads the intent is fairly obvious...... but was the glass of wine accidently spilt or on purpose? Innocent until proven guilty, yes but in the current climate I'm not sure common sense always comes to the fore.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			These ‘protests’ have nothing to do with justice or even the tragic Ms Everard herself or what happened to her....Just like the Floyd George Circus, this is about narcissism, point scoring, virtue signalling, getting attention, and having a ’cause’ and causing trouble just for the sake of it. This is not about her – Ms. Everard – and it never was. This is about them, it’s always about them. Entitled look at me scum.
		
Click to expand...

In the main, I agree the whole thing was hijacked by rent-a-mob screaming in the faces of Police officers. However, the underlying point of making society safer for women still stands.


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## 4LEX (Mar 14, 2021)

I have to say I'm in support of the protests. Sure some people will use it as a way to hate on men and cause trouble but I genuinely think the majority of it is well meaning and vital. If it can make streets safer for women and make men realise certain behaviours aren't acceptable then it needs to happen.

I've been out a lot over the years in London and northern cities. Despite being 6ft and well built, I've been bottled, assualted, nose broken, threatened with a knife twice and mugged. Thankfully I'm more popular with the girls  I take it as part of the night, defend myself and that's the way it is. For a women though it must be horrible knowing if someone wants to attack you, you've got no chance. That's the difference and I can't really imagine what it's like for them alone on public transport or walking at night.

The stats say men are three times more likely to be murdered than women and more likely to be killed by someone they don't know and in public but the fear is real. Every time my Mum finds a new walking route I go over and walk it myself to check it's safe. That's in a nice area of the country and shouldn't have to happen.

If we can raise awareness for the safety issues women face and adjust behaviours then it's worth it


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

4LEX said:



			I have to say I'm in support of the protests. Sure some people will use it as a way to hate on men and cause trouble but I genuinely think the majority of it is well meaning and vital. If it can make streets safer for women and make men realise certain behaviours aren't acceptable then it needs to happen.

I've been out a lot over the years in London and northern cities. Despite being 6ft and well built, I've been bottled, assualted, nose broken, threatened with a knife twice and mugged. Thankfully I'm more popular with the girls  I take it as part of the night, defend myself and that's the way it is. For a women though it must be horrible knowing if someone wants to attack you, you've got no chance. That's the difference and I can't really imagine what it's like for them alone on public transport or walking at night.

The stats say men are three times more likely to be murdered than women and more likely to be killed by someone they don't know and in public but the fear is real. Every time my Mum finds a new walking route I go over and walk it myself to check it's safe. That's in a nice area of the country and shouldn't have to happen.

If we can raise awareness for the safety issues women face and adjust behaviours then it's worth it 

Click to expand...

It was hijacked by anti police protests


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I think if someone is unconscious and you're applying defib pads the intent is fairly obvious...... but was the glass of wine accidently spilt or on purpose? Innocent until proven guilty, yes but in the current climate I'm not sure common sense always comes to the fore.
		
Click to expand...

It's not the applying the pads that is the issue Brian, it's what you were instructed to do prior to applying the pads.

And I fully agree with you; it should be fairly obvious what you are doing and why, but common sense seems to have gone out of the window.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Then why post it?  Unsurprising that a thread full of posts from blokes in full denial a cheapshot comes along...
		
Click to expand...

Don't you bother to read and digest a post before replying to it. There have been suggestions that there is no excuse for a man to  touch a woman's breast, even if not intentional.
I thought it was obvious that I posted the video to show that such things can happen inadvertently.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't you bother to read and digest a post before replying to it. There have been suggestions that there is no excuse for a man to  touch a woman's breast, even if not intentional.
I thought it was obvious that I posted the video to show that such things can happen inadvertently.
		
Click to expand...


A young woman has had her life taken... Which prompted a thread here... No doubt hoping for an adult discussion...
Instead you use it as an opportunity for a cheap shot... Shame on you...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			A young woman has had her life taken... Which prompted a thread here... No doubt hoping for an adult discussion...
Instead you use it as an opportunity for a cheap shot... Shame on you...
		
Click to expand...

Have you bothered to follow the thread, much of it has been about someone who said they accidently touched a woman's breast after spilling drink on her. One poster has been saying there's no excuse for that under any circumstances, the video I posted was to show evidence that such things can happen by mistake. If you think it was to make light or a cheap shot over the death of a young woman then you need to stand back and take a good look at yourself.  Your post is opportunistic clap trap.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2021)




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## Traminator (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's not the applying the pads that is the issue Brian, it's what you were instructed to do prior to applying the pads.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah she might not want you shaving her chest while she's unconscious 😅

(Edit: in case anyone is wondering, there is a razor in the defib box as the pads won't stick on a hairy chest) 😉


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## Duckster (Mar 14, 2021)

I don’t know if this is a region thing, but I’ve honestly never even thought about the difference between the safety of women of men at night. Since this news came out and also reading this thread I’ve asked the women I know, so the Mrs, my sister, my aunt and a few friends. Not a single one has said they’ve been afraid at night or had to think about their routes taken etc...

I’m saying it doesn’t happen but just that people I know aren’t worried about it


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

4LEX said:



			I have to say I'm in support of the protests. Sure some people will use it as a way to hate on men and cause trouble but I genuinely think the majority of it is well meaning and vital. *If it can make streets safer for women and make men realise certain behaviours aren't acceptable then it needs to happen.*

I've been out a lot over the years in London and northern cities. Despite being 6ft and well built, I've been bottled, assualted, nose broken, threatened with a knife twice and mugged. Thankfully I'm more popular with the girls  I take it as part of the night, defend myself and that's the way it is. For a women though it must be horrible knowing if someone wants to attack you, you've got no chance. That's the difference and I can't really imagine what it's like for them alone on public transport or walking at night.

The stats say men are three times more likely to be murdered than women and more likely to be killed by someone they don't know and in public but the fear is real. Every time my Mum finds a new walking route I go over and walk it myself to check it's safe. That's in a nice area of the country and shouldn't have to happen.

If we can raise awareness for the safety issues women face and adjust behaviours then it's worth it 

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I genuinely wish that it could, but it really won't. The men who have attacked and hurt or attacked and demeaned women have all, except maybe one in thousands, known that what they were doing is wrong.
The question of making them aware , or education, is simply not the case.
Just because men are not vociferously saying it shouldn't happen , doesn't  mean they don't care that it is happening , or tacitly agreeing that it is OK.
The majority of people don't agree or are upset st all crimes, yet their not
specifically protesting or individually doing anything proactive about it, doesn't mean they don't care.
Most adults are aware there is wrongdoing in this Country and throughout the world going on all the time. Their 'silence ' about it doesn't mean they don't care.

But , here, on this thread there are some who are saying we don't.
Being polite, I find that dismaying.!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			For the last week, the main news story has been about the abduction and murder of a young woman in London.
This post was started yesterday by a man who, after talking to his wife and daughter, found himself thinking that men in general could think a bit harder about their attitudes towards women.
After 24 hours of denials, arguments and diversions, it's ended up with funnies about sexual assault.
		
Click to expand...

...and as a result of the OP I asked my daughter the harassment question that I have never before asked, and I got the lowdown on the inappropriate sexual comment (we can call it the harassment that it is) of one form of another that she is subjected to by men almost every day of her life - and has been for ten years or more.  And so what do we have - a thread full of male denial - claims of X and Y being lawful (or not criminal) - and in the end - jokes.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as a result of the OP I asked my daughter the harassment question that I have never before asked, and I got the lowdown on the inappropriate sexual comment (we can call it the harassment that it is) of one form of another that she is subjected to by men almost every day of her life - and has been for ten years or more.  And so what do we have - a thread full of male denial - claims of X and Y being lawful (or not criminal) - and in the end - jokes.
		
Click to expand...

You are twisting the discussion to suit your own beliefs/agenda.

There have been no jokes and you know it. Some have particular views on the police and the value of a vigil. There have been sensible posts that have been asking questions on what can be done and what can't.  To suggest that is Male denial is churlish and acting in the manner you so readily criticise.

No one has suggested Women shouldn't be safe, no one has made light of the death of a young woman.  What's wrong with asking people to clarify what they want to happen and how they propose to achieve it.  Vague statements like 'Things need to change' are naive and helping no-one.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's not the applying the pads that is the issue Brian, it's what you were instructed to do prior to applying the pads.

And I fully agree with you; it should be fairly obvious what you are doing and why, but common sense seems to have gone out of the window.
		
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If that’s how it’s going men will be very apprehensive about a defib and women may die unnecessarily.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			If that’s how it’s going men will be very apprehensive about a defib and women may die unnecessarily.
		
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Providing they are unconscious or unresponsive you are covered by law


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## PNWokingham (Mar 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as a result of the OP I asked my daughter the harassment question that I have never before asked, and I got the lowdown on the inappropriate sexual comment (we can call it the harassment that it is) of one form of another that she is subjected to by men almost every day of her life - and has been for ten years or more.  A*nd so what do we have - a thread full of male denial -* claims of X and Y being lawful (or not criminal) - and in the end - jokes.
		
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you must live in a parralel universe if you think this. I have seen nothing but support for any measures that will help woman feel safer


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as a result of the OP I asked my daughter the harassment question that I have never before asked, and I got the lowdown on the inappropriate sexual comment (we can call it the harassment that it is) of one form of another that she is subjected to by men almost every day of her life - and has been for ten years or more.  And so what do we have - a thread full of male denial - *claims of X and Y being lawful (or not criminal) *- and in the end - jokes.
		
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You are clearly referring to the question of "intent", as has been discussed in earlier posts. Discussed in a proper and appropriate manner.
You are clearly an expert in your field of employment  Kindly respect that others are proficient in theirs and know more about some subjects than you do.
And thinking the question of intent is superfluous, or irrelevant, just shows your ignorance on the matter.
Your dismissal of its discussion shows that, far from what you may think, you are far from a fair minded thinker. You are full of agenda.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

Thread locked until you lot can grow up
Not impressed with the tone it’s taking


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