# Arn't joining fees making it harder for new members?



## Sashisg (Aug 31, 2016)

My club had this year introduced a joining fee of Â£250 on top or raised membership fees. I've recently helped a friend join and have found it hard to persuade them to fork out for the extra fees. Are these fees just an attempt to claw in more money? Are they a sign that the club is struggling and needs other ways to secure finances? In a sport that is already expensive (with time and money), does it really make sense to tower on more fees? My club currently charges ~Â£1400 for full membership and Â£850 for intermediate membership. 

I'm frustrated with this approach but keen to hear other opinions? I really want to see my flu flutist with membership and having larger contributions to competitions. Are there benefits that in overseeing?


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

Usually joining fees are actually a sign of a successful club not one struggling, ie they have plenty of membership demand, if they dont have the demand from potential new members then putting up a barrier to entry doesnt make much sense


----------



## chellie (Aug 31, 2016)

Largeish joining fee at ours and there is a waiting list for the men.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm a firm believer in joining fees, it promotes a bit of loyalty to the club and encourages members to stay long term which gives the benefit to the club of being able to plan and finance long term improvements.


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm a firm believer in joining fees, it promotes a bit of loyalty to the club and encourages members to stay long term which gives the benefit to the club of being able to plan and finance long term improvements.
		
Click to expand...

As someone who has been a bit nomadic and moved around the country over the years I tend to have the opposite view, ok if you plan to spend 40 years living in the same place but prices clubs out if you move to a new area each 5 years or so

Dont buy that it helps planning finances etc, these should be easy enough to plan on a normal membership basis, all it does is provide some bunce to compensate for poor planning or unexpected costs


----------



## guest100718 (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm a firm believer in joining fees, it promotes a bit of loyalty to the club and encourages members to stay long term which gives the benefit to the club of being able to plan and finance long term improvements.
		
Click to expand...

Helps keep out the riff raff


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Helps keep out the riff raff
		
Click to expand...

If thats how you perceive then Im happy to be kept out


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2016)

fundy said:



			As someone who has been a bit nomadic and moved around the country over the years I tend to have the opposite view, ok if you plan to spend 40 years living in the same place but prices clubs out if you move to a new area each 5 years or so

*Dont buy that it helps planning finances etc, these should be easy enough to plan on a normal membership basis*, all it does is provide some bunce to compensate for poor planning or unexpected costs
		
Click to expand...

My argument is without a joining fee, half your membership could walk at the end of the year if there was an issue at a club (poor conditioning etc) but if you have forked out a grand or more you are more likely to ride the storm.

I understand what you are saying about moving around though, maybe you should negotiate golf club membership into the contract with the new employer


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			My argument is without a joining fee, *half your membership could walk at the end of the year if there was an issue at a club (poor conditioning etc) *but if you have forked out a grand or more you are more likely to ride the storm.

I understand what you are saying about moving around though, maybe you should negotiate golf club membership into the contract with the new employer  

Click to expand...

Well if the club have made that big an error then surely they get what they deserve! Im not sure that the joining fee will stop  a lot of people going if things are that bad either

As for the 2nd paragraph, big issue is im the employer and the employee lol


----------



## guest100718 (Aug 31, 2016)

fundy said:



			If thats how you perceive then Im happy to be kept out
		
Click to expand...

you're the golf club snob...


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			you're the golf club snob...
		
Click to expand...

im what? what because im a member of a course im a golf club snob? a week off ignore was too long for you!


----------



## GB72 (Aug 31, 2016)

Hate joining  fees. Clubs should have to work to retain members and make them want to stay by being better than the competition. They should not have to use financial handcuffs to keep members when their decisions and actions have made them less attractive than the club down the road


----------



## JCW (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			My argument is without a joining fee, half your membership could walk at the end of the year if there was an issue at a club (poor conditioning etc) but if you have forked out a grand or more you are more likely to ride the storm.

I understand what you are saying about moving around though, maybe you should negotiate golf club membership into the contract with the new employer  

Click to expand...


At my club Parkstone its Â£2500 to join and there is a large waiting list , You are right about people leaving if they do not pay joining fees ....................EYG


----------



## Blue in Munich (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



*My argument is without a joining fee, half your membership could walk at the end of the year if there was an issue at a club (poor conditioning etc) but if you have forked out a grand or more you are more likely to ride the storm.
*
I understand what you are saying about moving around though, maybe you should negotiate golf club membership into the contract with the new employer  

Click to expand...

Precisely what happened at my old club.  Those of us that went to clubs without joining fees are still wandering round from club to club.  Those that moved to clubs with joining fees have stayed put.  Or is it that we just moved to better clubsâ€¦...


----------



## guest100718 (Aug 31, 2016)

They are are waste of money and a lot of clubs round here have got rid. I wouldnt pay a joining fee.


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

JCW said:



			At my club Parkstone its Â£2500 to join and there is a large waiting list , You are right about people leaving if they do not pay joining fees ....................EYG
		
Click to expand...

people stay at parkstone because its a cracking course, not because they paid a joining fee though surely?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2016)

fundy said:



			people stay at parkstone because its a cracking course, not because they paid a joining fee though surely?
		
Click to expand...

Parkstone is in the top 3 courses in the area but Broadstone is the best


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Parkstone is in the top 3 courses in the area but Broadstone is the best  

Click to expand...

bit of luck next year Ill get to assess all the courses for myself (fitness permitting lol)


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2016)

fundy said:



			bit of luck next year Ill get to assess all the courses for myself (fitness permitting lol)
		
Click to expand...

You are welcome at Broadstone anytime, just ping me a message if you fancy a game :thup:


----------



## Franco (Aug 31, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Hate joining  fees. Clubs should have to work to retain members and make them want to stay by being better than the competition. They should not have to use financial handcuffs to keep members when their decisions and actions have made them less attractive than the club down the road
		
Click to expand...

I agree, no joining fee for me.  If I don't settle in the club, I will move on.


----------



## fundy (Aug 31, 2016)

drive4show said:



			You are welcome at Broadstone anytime, just ping me a message if you fancy a game :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I will thank you, timetable not certain yet but definitely heading that way sometime soon!


----------



## Hickory_Hacker (Aug 31, 2016)

Both my club's have joining fee's and long may they continue. 

If anything I would up both the joining fee and year subs, quality over quantity :thup: But it's not my gig!


----------



## stevek1969 (Aug 31, 2016)

Have one at mine that gets paid in instalments , i think if you pay it means you won't leave after a few years


----------



## delc (Sep 1, 2016)

There is quite a lot of capital investment in a typical golf club, so to some extent the joining fee is buying into that. However, not everybody has two or three thousand quid (or a lot more at certain clubs) to throw away, so clubs need to consider what overall effect this has on recruiting new members. Two extra members at Â£1500 each is worth the same as one joining fee, and may go on for many years.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

All clubs should charge a joining fee, memberships and tee times sold on the cheap are damaging golf

Charging a joining fee gains commitment from the person who joined, to remain a member and also to use the facilities

Of course there is money in the bank, but people should perceive a joining fee as the norm IMO, golf is a special game, clubs need to present membership as a special commitment to the special game!

Golf courses are racing towards oblivion, obliterating commitment (Joining fees)  offering massive discounts through 3rd party sites, introducing all sorts of gimmicks that detract from actual golf

GOLF does not need gimmicks, nor should it keep getting sold on the cheap, drives me crazy


----------



## Slab (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			All clubs should charge a joining fee, memberships and tee times sold on the cheap are damaging golf

Charging a joining fee gains commitment from the person who joined, to remain a member and also to use the facilities

Of course there is money in the bank, but people should perceive a joining fee as the norm IMO, golf is a special game, clubs need to present membership as a special commitment to the special game!

Golf courses are racing towards oblivion, obliterating commitment (Joining fees)  offering massive discounts through 3rd party sites, introducing all sorts of gimmicks that detract from actual golf

GOLF does not need gimmicks, nor should it keep getting sold on the cheap, drives me crazy
		
Click to expand...

Is this really your view or just for forum banter?

Golf is a special game, but should never be exclusive based on the size of someoneâ€™s bank balance. (if golf membership ever became defined as â€˜specialâ€™ based on someoneâ€™s ability to pay then its finished) 

Providing thereâ€™s choice in the market place to enable anyone to play then clubs can target their preferred member, whether thatâ€™s the millionaires who hold memberships at clubs they donâ€™t even play at from one year to the next or the lads with memberships on the municipal course, and everyone in-between, the market will sort itself out and the club & course should reflect the income but importantly neither model poses a threat to the others existence  

I think it's the clubs in the very middle where the difference of opinion is greatest. The clubs that once had a waiting list/joining fee but cannot sustain it anymore and those that try from time to time to apply one but somehow the club just isn't worth the lofty station the owners/committee believe it is    

Golf is special because it can be played by the guy off the shop-floor wearing t-shirt, trainers and cargo shorts who's on a Â£250 annual membership, the ball will still draw/fade/hook & slice the same as it does for the affluent player


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 1, 2016)

If Cooden had had a joining fee, I don't think I'd be a member there now.
It's only because they dropped it that it became affordable to me.
It's still over Â£1,100.00 a year, which is plenty enough for me.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			All clubs should charge a joining fee, memberships and tee times sold on the cheap are damaging golf

Charging a joining fee gains commitment from the person who joined, to remain a member and also to use the facilities

Of course there is money in the bank, but people should perceive a joining fee as the norm IMO, golf is a special game, clubs need to present membership as a special commitment to the special game!

Golf courses are racing towards oblivion, obliterating commitment (Joining fees)  offering massive discounts through 3rd party sites, introducing all sorts of gimmicks that detract from actual golf

GOLF does not need gimmicks, nor should it keep getting sold on the cheap, drives me crazy
		
Click to expand...

I think your logic relies on the fact that every member of every club has the money and inclination to pay an additional joining fee. Yes I agree that may well increase commitment to some extent. But as a long term economic strategic I think it is extremely flawed in today's society.

 Golf needs to continually innovate to make it relevant to society today whilst maintaining what is good about the sport. There also needs to be a good part of the game that is seen as cheap as that will make it more accessible. The danger is that if innovation is seen as gimmicks then the game will become more and more irrelevant to many and become more of a niche sport.

And I'd argue golf is not special if you do not play it. It is no more special than bowls is to a bowls player, or football to a Sunday league player. And to me in society today there is a great danger in all clubs thinking that it is special and that people will be willing to pay a premium to access the game and the club is doing the member the favour.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 1, 2016)

Joining a golf club isnt a status symbol.....Lots of people just want to play golf and have no desire to stump up a grand on top of subs or be interviewed and all that nonsense.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

We currently have a join fee - we also have a decent amount of people on the waiting list 

We also offer a membership scheme for people who might be only in the area for a couple of years that doesn't include a joining fee


----------



## MendieGK (Sep 1, 2016)

I think a joining fee is should only be relevant for clubs of high stature. I would have an issue joining any club with a joining fee personally. The reason i wont join Frilford is because they want Â£3k to join - theres a reason they have offers on all the time. People arent willing to pay it.

I dont really agree with the 'shows some commitment' angle, basically thats saying the club isnt doing enough to 'want' people to stay, so is 'making' them stay? just my opinion though.

With regards to 351s post, that view is the reason golf is in decline.


----------



## shewy (Sep 1, 2016)

Part of the snobbery of golf imo, clubs are struggling because they are stuck in the past, maybe if they had a modern type memberships with a bit more flexibility then they would attract more members and trade. We are not all retired and able to play 7 days a week, for those who work  5 days a week and have families I don't think old style memberships work or are worth it


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 1, 2016)

I think once upon a time all clubs had a joining fee, Ive paid one at the last 3 clubs ive been a member of and most of the half decent clubs still have one up here.

We had a deal to try and get under 30's in, and they though that would bolster the comps as we have an older membership , which was no joining fee and half normal cost. Not a bit of it, none of the first intake played any comps, just used it as cheap golf and sign mates on. in fact half of them failed to join the next year, and i imagine very few will stay once the cheaper deal no longer applies to them.

people forget golf course are open 12 months and costs to run those clubs are also 12 months, so anyone that thinks they should pay for just summer golf has to  realize they have to pay a premium for that.


----------



## shewy (Sep 1, 2016)

That's my issue with membership fees, my last club was closed nearly 6 months due to weather, why would you fork out knowing it's shut half the year.


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 1, 2016)

shewy said:



			That's my issue with membership fees, my last club was closed nearly 6 months due to weather, why would you fork out knowing it's shut half the year.
		
Click to expand...

Thats fair enough, but  they still had to pay the staff, and other bills. If you want 6 month membership you have to pay a premium.

 we have advertising spaces in the airport and as we are a tourist destination many of the advertisers only want to advertise during the summer months, if the person that sold the ads allowed that we would have all the spaces empty for 6 months and full the rest. so they charge more for 6 months summer contracts than the 12 month ones. result all the spaces are full 12 months.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 1, 2016)

Simple supply and demand, if a club has a joining fee and people are willing to pay it, then fine.
Many clubs are struggling for members and adding a joining fee would be financial suicide.
But believing a joining fee is linked to a better course or better sort of person is daft and just old fashioned snobbery.
Up here in the NE quite a few of the courses had joining fees and now I'm not aware of any.
People are free to choose how they spend their money and good on them.
Some courses possibly wouldn't survive without the joining fee.


----------



## ger147 (Sep 1, 2016)

I joined my first club back in 2012 and paid a 4 figure joining fee. I didn't settle at that club so left at the end of that season regardless of the joining fee.

I've been at my current club which has no joining fee for the last 4 years but I'm not happy there so am looking around for somewhere else for next season and am most likely to end up back at the club I originally joined in 2012 as most of the things that put me off it in the first place have been changed.

Golf is my only hobby and the cost, joining fees etc. have no impact on my decisions on where to join or whether I'm going to move on or not. I just want to play golf on a nice golf course and be able to play lots of comps during the golfing season.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

shewy said:



			That's my issue with membership fees, my last club was closed nearly 6 months due to weather, why would you fork out knowing it's shut half the year.
		
Click to expand...

You are perfectly illustrating WHY there should be a joining fee

You have a bad year, people just piss off to the next club with no joining fee or become nomads and over time lost to the game


----------



## shewy (Sep 1, 2016)

Where's the logic in that? Would you pay for a football match and only get to watch the first half?
I was a member for a good few years but the product was simply not good enough.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

Where is the logic?

If you can leave one club and join another without any financial issue, why would you stick to one club?

People are lost to golf when they change jobs, have kids, get a house renovation etc

Right then you think SOD IT i will not pay my membership this year and pick up again next year or even join another club that is a bit cheaper, guess what, many would not rejoin and many would slip away from golf

The joining fee retains golfers and encourages a club atmosphere, it works

You have to balance exactly how many members are put off, v how many are retained and if the club can present itself as a desirable club to join (Which should obviously be the aim) then they should be aiming to charge a joining fee


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 1, 2016)

People don't only move to cheaper clubs, they tend to move to the club that suits their needs.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Where is the logic?

If you can leave one club and join another without any financial issue, why would you stick to one club?

People are lost to golf when they change jobs, have kids, get a house renovation etc

Right then you think SOD IT i will not pay my membership this year and pick up again next year or even join another club that is a bit cheaper, guess what, many would not rejoin and many would slip away from golf

The joining fee retains golfers and encourages a club atmosphere, it works
		
Click to expand...

It's not a one size fits all though 

Joining fees will work for some clubs whilst it would put others out of business 

If you charge a joining fee at a golf club that can't justify it no one would join


----------



## Robobum (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Where is the logic?

If you can leave one club and join another without any financial issue, why would you stick to one club?

People are lost to golf when they change jobs, have kids, get a house renovation etc

Right then you think SOD IT i will not pay my membership this year and pick up again next year or even join another club that is a bit cheaper, guess what, many would not rejoin and many would slip away from golf

The joining fee retains golfers and encourages a club atmosphere, it works
		
Click to expand...

At some clubs, yes it does work. At many others you will have a very unhappy membership base who are paying a significant amount of money for sod all. 

It has to be one hell of a "club atmosphere " to stomach that for too long.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

Agree with the above, i was just editing my previous post, last few lines


----------



## bluewolf (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Where is the logic?

If you can leave one club and join another without any financial issue, why would you stick to one club?

People are lost to golf when they change jobs, have kids, get a house renovation etc

Right then you think SOD IT i will not pay my membership this year and pick up again next year or even join another club that is a bit cheaper, guess what, many would not rejoin and many would slip away from golf

The joining fee retains golfers and encourages a club atmosphere, it works

You have to balance exactly how many members are put off, v how many are retained and if the club can present itself as a desirable club to join (Which should obviously be the aim) then they should be aiming to charge a joining fee
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with your post. What you appear to be saying is that the best thing for Golf is to engineer a situation in which clubs keep members because they can't afford to leave. Congratulations, you've turned Club membership into marriage!!!


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with your post. What you appear to be saying is that the best thing for Golf is to engineer a situation in which clubs keep members because they can't afford to leave. Congratulations, you've turned Club membership into marriage!!!
		
Click to expand...

Disagreeing is fine, you are allowed to be wrong

Golf in general has an image problem in the UK and USA and that is it is being cheapened at every turn

Clubs should be aiming to present their course as somewhere worth a fee, a course of value a course that never offers stupid discounts on 3rd party sites

If you think ok lets waive the joining fee and how about offering 2 4 1 green fees all year too..    Do you REALLY think your club is going to be in a good position in 5 or 10 years?

Next stop groupon and golf now who take 90 or even 100% of some green fees  
Then clubs wonder why they cannot balance their books?

Stop the rot.. aim to charge a joining fee by presenting the value of the club

Contrary to popular belief their are plenty of golfers out there, the problem is they are less inclined to stick with golf than previously, the USA has 2.2. million NEW golfers each year, so golf should not have a problem but it does.

Who cares about joining a club now?  paying a joining fee?  Why would you if you can play a round of golf at a huge discount, course seems to be struggling etc

I am not saying a club that is poor is going to thrive charging a joining fee, but they should look for commitment somehow and not via a discount either!


----------



## bluewolf (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Disagreeing is fine, you are allowed to be wrong
		
Click to expand...

Like I said. Just like marriage &#128521;


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Like I said. Just like marriage &#62985;
		
Click to expand...

ahahahahh

Sorry, i tend to post, then edit when i realise i have not written all I meant, it is a long term habit i cannot kick


Would you rather your club were in a position where they had a joining fee and a waiting list 

OR

No joining fee, no waiting list and no idea who was going to be a member next year?

I suggest aiming for the first scenario is by far and away the aim for a golf club, now how the club actually gets to that position is a different conversation.

Sure fees can put people off, especially when less and less clubs charge them, but all clubs should be aiming to be in the first scenario v the 2nd, the erosion of joining fees is massively down to huge discounts year round by almost half the clubs in the uk, it is INSANE!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Disagreeing is fine, you are allowed to be wrong

Golf in general has an image problem in the UK and USA and that is it is being cheapened at every turn

Clubs should be aiming to present their course as somewhere worth a fee, a course of value a course that never offers stupid discounts on 3rd party sites

If you think ok lets waive the joining fee and how about offering 2 4 1 green fees all year too..    Do you REALLY think your club is going to be in a good position in 5 or 10 years?

Next stop groupon and golf now who take 90 or even 100% of some green fees  
Then clubs wonder why they cannot balance their books?

Stop the rot.. aim to charge a joining fee by presenting the value of the club

Contrary to popular belief their are plenty of golfers out there, the problem is they are less inclined to stick with golf than previously, the USA has 2.2. million NEW golfers each year, so golf should not have a problem but it does.

Who cares about joining a club now?  paying a joining fee?  Why would you if you can play a round of golf at a huge discount, course seems to be struggling etc

I am not saying a club that is poor is going to thrive charging a joining fee, but they should look for commitment somehow and not via a discount either!
		
Click to expand...

Unless of course some of the newer courses are built for that exact scenario, we've got a relatively new course nearby and it has very very few members, the owner has come out and stated he markets at the nomad and currently he's being very succesful.
At the other end of the scale Trump Aberdeen has only this year offered memberships as again they were looking at it at being a non-members club, they had less than 20 members when we played it in May.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

Building a course for nomads makes a lot of sense, if all the surrounding Private clubs have no commitment from their members!  

It is bound to do well.

Members who have paid 0 pounds at other clubs might simply just leave for the quick saving of only paying when you play, but losing the social element that should exist within a decent club and thus over time being less inclined to play golf.


The Trump example is so extreme it is hardly representative of 99% plus of clubs in the UK, what he does or does not do has no bearing on what your 700 quid a year course does.

Like buying a porsche GT3 RS (If you like cars) you are buying the symbol as much as the product


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 1, 2016)

On what basis do you associate no joining fee with no commitment, my club is 104 years old and has never had a joining fee, if they tried to add a joining fee I could guarantee our membership would decline instantly.


----------



## bluewolf (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			ahahahahh

Sorry, i tend to post, then edit when i realise i have not written all I meant, it is a long term habit i cannot kick


Would you rather your club were in a position where they had a joining fee and a waiting list 

OR

No joining fee, no waiting list and no idea who was going to be a member next year?

I suggest aiming for the first scenario is by far and away the aim for a golf club, now how the club actually gets to that position is a different conversation.

Sure fees can put people off, especially when less and less clubs charge them, but all clubs should be aiming to be in the first scenario v the 2nd, the erosion of joining fees is massively down to huge discounts year round by almost half the clubs in the uk, it is INSANE!
		
Click to expand...


In all honesty, surely the best policy is to present a Club that is in great condition, with a friendly membership, regular competitions, professionally run etc etc etc.. If they do it right then the members stay put... If members are leaving then there's a motivation to find out why..

I left a previous club (after paying a Â£700 joining fee 2 years previous) because they presented an elitist attitude and cliquey membership. Roll ups were impossible to join. drawn comps always favoured certain sections of the membership (for example, Presidents day - drawn comp - we got the choice of a morning or afternoon tee time. I preferred afternoon, and got the group 3 from the back. Strangely enough, every one of the final 4 groups were new members. All the long term members got the prime slots.)

My new club dropped the membership fee 2 years ago. They've had over a hundred new members since. They've been able to buy all new machinery and put in 4 new bunkers.. Now, they may not all stay, but even if only half do, then that's a sizable improvement..


----------



## fundy (Sep 1, 2016)

Lol, so the only way a course can hold onto its members is by charging a hefty joining fee to create a feeling of loyalty (falsely through trying to get some value for money). So basically you want to distort the supply and demand equation.

There is an alternative, its called producing a product (in this case the golf club; course and everything that goes with being a member) at a fair annual price in the current market place. Hundreds and hundreds of golf courses up and down the country do this pretty successfully without feeling the need to tie members in for more than a year

Damn, fallen for the trolling again


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

I did say many times you have to make the place desirable, worth joining,  worth paying the premium for, the alternative you present is not an alternative to what I have described courses should aim at at all!

P.S i do not appreciate being called a troll


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with your post. What you appear to be saying is that the best thing for Golf is to engineer a situation in which clubs keep members because they can't afford to leave. *Congratulations, you've turned Club membership into marriage!!!*

Click to expand...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			ahahahahh

Sorry, i tend to post, then edit when i realise i have not written all I meant, it is a long term habit i cannot kick


*Would you rather your club were in a position where they had a joining fee and a waiting list *

OR

No joining fee, no waiting list and no idea who was going to be a member next year?

I suggest aiming for the first scenario is by far and away the aim for a golf club, now how the club actually gets to that position is a different conversation.

Sure fees can put people off, especially when less and less clubs charge them, but all clubs should be aiming to be in the first scenario v the 2nd, the erosion of joining fees is massively down to huge discounts year round by almost half the clubs in the uk, it is INSANE!
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure the first position is preferable but society has changed, it's not the 70s or 80s, very few people, especially those under say 40, now see joining a golf club as something to socially aspire to. Fewer and fewer people now have the free time even if they had the resources, to make the most use out of golf club membership and see the value in paying a joining fee on top of annual membership to do so.  

Of course there is still an element of society that does and that is fine, and there are clubs to cater for that and that is great.  But you seem to just want to go back the the good old days, introduce a financial measure across the board that I am sure will lead to more clubs attracting even fewer new members to mostly try and ensure they keep hold of the ever dwindling pool of existing ones.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

Engineer a situation where golf clubs have value to sustain them ongoing, which includes being able to charge a joining fee due to demand

Nothing to do with not being able to leave, it is the other side of the coin, where they WANT to stay and the fee is worth it due to the fact they club is worth it and there is a lot of demand.

Forums suck for discussions sometimes, there seems to be infinite ways to twist someones words

I am about the club creating the desire and demand for golfers to want to join, be happy to pay a fee and commit to the club versus, no commitment, discount golf

Golf is in decline as golfers are paying less and less and the game of golf is being devalued, it has to stop or clubs will keep failing


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

Again it's not a one size fits all and never will be 

A lot of people move around the country now and they won't join golf clubs that have a joining Fee because they could be moving in a year or less 

That's a lot of golfers that clubs need to cater for 

Golf isn't in decline because people are paying less and less and it certainly isn't being devalued because there is the ability to get cheaper green fees or membership


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 1, 2016)

351DRIVER said:



			Engineer a situation where golf clubs have value to sustain them ongoing, which includes being able to charge a joining fee due to demand

Nothing to do with not being able to leave, it is the other side of the coin, where they WANT to stay and the fee is worth it due to the fact they club is worth it and there is a lot of demand.

Forums suck for discussions sometimes, there seems to be infinite ways to twist someones words

I am about the club creating the desire and demand for golfers to want to join, be happy to pay a fee and commit to the club versus, no commitment, discount golf

Golf is in decline as golfers are paying less and less and the game of golf is being devalued, it has to stop or clubs will keep failing
		
Click to expand...

 But why can't Golf Clubs offer everything you state without the need for a joining fee, simply create all that and do it through slightly higher membership fees, surely it would make members stay because of what you've created rather than the fact they've paid a joining fee.


----------



## Slab (Sep 1, 2016)

I think too many things have changed in the last 50 years to hope that all clubs can aspire to use a joining fee model 

Our parents (or grandparents) may have stayed in the same house all their lives, how many of our (& the next) generation will be able to say that, if anything there will be multiple house moves 
How folks spend their social time has also changed dramatically so that going to the club isn't a 3-4 times a week event for many people

Golf for many may become just that, a game of golf with no clubhouse required! (just a starter, changing rooms and vending machines) but it'll still be golf. It just caters for players with different requirements


----------



## LCW (Sep 1, 2016)

Nearly if not all (come to think of it) the clubs in my area have joining fee's and some substantial ones at that but it does not stop them having thriving memberships with waiting lists to join their respective clubs.

We have West Lancs, Formby, Formby Hall, Hesketh, S&A, Hillside & Royal Birkdale all with joining fees last I heard and mostly waiting lists except maybe Hesketh & FH at the moment.  Some places are nigh on impossible to get into to without knowing people in the know regardless of how much cash you have.

I guess my take on it is its just personal preference.  I paid a joining fee and have no issues with that because I knew I was planning on staying with the club for many years so will get my moneys worth to play at the club I had always wanted too.  This was helped by the fact I was allowed to pay in installments over 3 years.  I could have joined somewhere a little further afield with no joining fee which i would have gladly done but nothing I seen had everything I wanted in a GC, so i had to pay for my tastes.  If I have to pay that fee that's my decision and I have to take it on the chin but I do get why it can be a barrier to entry to some folk.

The courses up here are of pretty good standard and it costs (sometimes alot) to keep the clubs at this standard and I am not just talking about the course itself.  I would rather that than a constant increase in annual subs which is how they could levy the current members for income if we had no joining fee I would assume.  They could also over crowd the membership leading to lots of issues to generate the lost revenue from joining fee's.

For my money I can play 12 months of the year as well due to the greens teams constant year round work.   I also suppose it helps (income) that we charge about Â£150 a round for a visitor fee :fore:

Suppose as some one pointed it its not a one size fits all & its good we lots of options like municipals (Â£300 a year i think southport mun is) all the way up to Royal's with clubs in between with and without fee's.


----------



## woody69 (Sep 1, 2016)

If I ran a golf club, I would introduce a scheme where they pay a 'joining fee' that equates to 1 years membership. Then in year 3, this money they have paid is used as their membership. If they leave in the 1st two years or at any point in year 3 they don't get the 'joining fee' (or remainder) back. Promotes loyalty to the club and helps the members budget.

I'd offer a similar scheme for year 4 of their membership, where they can pay up front for year 6 and so on at a reduced rate to the standard yearly rate.


----------



## matt71 (Sep 1, 2016)

Sorry to say but I am struggling as it is to pay for membership at my club and if I had to leave (moving area) and want to carry playing the game and the new club asks for a joining fee then it will be the final straw and would have to go pay and play!

I  personally feel that membership fees are a thing of the past and only see the posher or maybe more desirable clubs charging now, even then you still have to be recommend by several members to get an interview to get in. Unfortunately that type of club is not for me !

i can see the pro's and cons for joining fees but as you can guess I am against


----------



## DRW (Sep 1, 2016)

I always thought joining fee were applicable to private member courses, as you 'bought into the club/land etc' Which I can agree with as such. But personally I think it should have been done on a share or debenture basis, which some clubs do.

To pay a joining fee to join a club that is owned by a profit making business, is a joke and just to take money from you for nothing on their side IMHO. Perhaps different for some of the proper top courses, that wish to restrict membership to the 'elite'. Luckily enough the boom of building golf courses for the normal man came about in the late 80s/90s, busier lives, more expensive lifestyles and the 'old view' is now getting much older and the younger view is a coming.

This has meant downward pressure on courses, to drop joining fees, to attract the younger generation and middle aged generation (upto 35ish). I think some of the local course here have a sliding scale of yearly fees, depending on your age to reflect this. As these people of the long term future of clubs and to encourage them to continue playing whilst having a family/home etc, just makes sense, as far better to keep these people playing than not playing at all(so golf will lose a lot more money overall).

Down South it is different, due to the massive numbers of people living in the same area and land being at such a premium.


----------



## Crazyface (Sep 1, 2016)

http://styalgolf.com/categories-memberships/

This is the way forward in my opinion. The place was rammed when I went. (A Friday morning)


----------



## Crazyface (Sep 1, 2016)

http://styalgolf.com/categories-memberships/in2golf/

With this being a brilliant option !!!!


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 1, 2016)

Flexible membership options are always a good idea, like offering many golf tees, all for that.


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 1, 2016)

I am a member of a course that had a joining fee originally Â£700, payable over 10 years @ Â£70 a year, if desired. The last 10 years it has had no joining fee.

Every year recently we have had 60-80 people leave and join, or re-join back. The club has sailed close to the wind a few times, from what I'm led to believe, but has also re-designed  a greens complex, or had a whole new extra hole added.

It is harder to plan though.

All the other courses within 10 miles also now have no joining fee, bar 1, whose fee is Â£1,000. This course is probably the best run, and in the best nick, but I just don't think a Â£1k joining fee is worth it. Â£250-500 possibly. I would however pay Â£2.5 k to join one of the local premium links courses, given the chance.  

I think most non-premium courses, who do struggle for members should look at charging a joining fee of say Â£300.00, but each year for 5 years you get Â£75 back off your green fees for each year. You would be Â£75 better off in total, the club keep you, or they make Â£225 off you, if you leave after 1 year. Nomadic golf is making it harder for clubs to stay alive with one local club at one point offering Â£500 a year subs (everyone else around here is 1k), as I can only conclude that they were in severe difficulty at the time, They had over 100 new members, whether they are retained when back to Â£1k, I don't know.

I think some clubs need the middle way.


----------



## GB72 (Sep 1, 2016)

Crazyface said:



http://styalgolf.com/categories-memberships/

This is the way forward in my opinion. The place was rammed when I went. (A Friday morning)
		
Click to expand...

Now this is something I like, very forward thinking. That said, it would not be ideal for many golf clubs who see the working golfer as a handy cash cow and that is how I feel at times. For many people of my age, golf is a once a week, maybe twice a week thing and it is only possible to play at weekends. Most golf clubs know at that stage that they have the upper hand so long as no alternative fee structures exist in the area. Based on that, the working golfer tends to pay the highest rates at the club whilst playing the least amount of golf. Great for the club, poor value for the golfer. This results in many facing a decision of expensive golf or no golf and that partly explains why you have a far lower number of golfers aged 30-50 at clubs. 
It is no real surprise that many golf clubs have an aging membership as to those of retirement age, membership represents great value for money. That same value does not exist for the weekend golfer whose cost per round is far higher. 
Ironically, and I have discussed this with a couple of committee members at our club, having a scheme like that detailed in the web link could actually make the club more money. Our fees are about Â£700.00 per year. If you cut that to Â£350.00 plus Â£10 per round at weekends, you could make nearly Â£900 out of a golfer who ends up averaging a round a week but with less commitment and less up front cost, you may just attract more working golfers to play.


----------



## Sports_Fanatic (Sep 1, 2016)

Arguably a joining fee is offering a discount to long term members for their loyalty.

For most members clubs, they try to balance the books between income and expenses whilst maintaining or improving the quality. They're not there to try to rake in a mass of profits which goes to one owner.

Very simple example, but if they have say a 1,000 members and need to make Â£500,000 a year, then each member will have to pay Â£500.

Alternatively, they could look to make say Â£450,000 through annual subs, and the rest through a joining fee. Existing members would therefore only pay Â£450 a year. Yes they would have paid the original joining fee but if you like this becomes spread thinner the more years someone stays at a club.

For completeness the 50 new members would pay an extra Â£1k joining fee making up the balance of Â£50k.

I think many people would say a discount for loyal customers is reasonable, and also a long term membership base probably lowers costs for the club around advertising, recruiting etc hence another reason why you could argue there should be a benefit to them.

Saying all that, as a 30 something with young children, the price does factor in to decision making as I'll play once/twice a month at best so my rounds are a higher costs than guests when I look at purely membership price per round. A joining fee isn't ideal then but I can understand why a club may do it.


----------



## Val (Sep 1, 2016)

ger147 said:



			I joined my first club back in 2012 and paid a 4 figure joining fee. I didn't settle at that club so left at the end of that season regardless of the joining fee.

I've been at my current club which has no joining fee for the last 4 years but I'm not happy there so am looking around for somewhere else for next season and am most likely to end up back at the club I originally joined in 2012 as most of the things that put me off it in the first place have been changed.

Golf is my only hobby and the cost, joining fees etc. have no impact on my decisions on where to join or whether I'm going to move on or not. I just want to play golf on a nice golf course and be able to play lots of comps during the golfing season.
		
Click to expand...

What was your original club?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2016)

woody69 said:



			If I ran a golf club, I would introduce a scheme where they pay a 'joining fee' that equates to 1 years membership. Then in year 3, this money they have paid is used as their membership. If they leave in the 1st two years or at any point in year 3 they don't get the 'joining fee' (or remainder) back. Promotes loyalty to the club and helps the members budget.

I'd offer a similar scheme for year 4 of their membership, where they can pay up front for year 6 and so on at a reduced rate to the standard yearly rate.
		
Click to expand...

I have suggested a similar scheme to our committee.  

My idea was that new members pay let's say 5 years of bar/food and pro shop money up front - say Â£500.  Â£100 of this money is put on the members account at the start, another Â£100 at year two etc.  So if the member stays 5 years he gets his money 'back' (though obviously he has spent it in the club).  If a member leaves within 5 years then he forfeits the balance. 

The response was that it isn't quite so straightforward as we might think as it would require the club to be able to hold and guarantee your money - and that requires a lot of financial services compliance work - and so for instance why my club uses Fairway Golf for members wishing to pay by monthly DD.


----------



## hovis (Sep 1, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm a firm believer in joining fees, it promotes a bit of loyalty to the club and encourages members to stay long term which gives the benefit to the club of being able to plan and finance long term improvements.
		
Click to expand...

Complete opposite for me.  lets say you don't like new changes the club bring in or don't like other aspects.   You can't exactly walk away when you've paid 2k to join


----------



## hovis (Sep 1, 2016)

drive4show said:



			My argument is without a joining fee, half your membership could walk at the end of the year if there was an issue at a club (poor conditioning etc) but if you have forked out a grand or more you are more likely to ride the storm.
		
Click to expand...

So a golf club can do what they like with no consequences.  Thats called ransom!   

If they didn't have joining fee's they might just have to take measures to keep customers happy.  Imagine that


----------



## hovis (Sep 1, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Hate joining  fees. Clubs should have to work to retain members and make them want to stay by being better than the competition. They should not have to use financial handcuffs to keep members when their decisions and actions have made them less attractive than the club down the road
		
Click to expand...

Spot on


----------



## MarkE (Sep 1, 2016)

I'd never contemplate joining a club with joining fees. Membership fees should more than cover the the cost of running a club and if they are in place to dissuade the riffraff I would'nt want to join anyway.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 1, 2016)

hovis said:



			Complete opposite for me.  lets say you don't like new changes the club bring in or don't like other aspects.   You can't exactly walk away when you've paid 2k to join
		
Click to expand...

Private members clubs have committees that are answerable to the members. I wouldn't join a proprietary club that had a joining fee where an owner can do whatever he wants.


----------



## DCB (Sep 1, 2016)

Interesting thread with two very different points of view.  

We had a local club who were one of the first to drop the joining fee. Year one saw a huge number of new members join the club.  Given that 30 new members in a year was a good number, they took in over 90 in that first year.  We had a wet summer, the course had some serious flooding issues when a burn burst it's banks and the lower part of the course was unplayable for quite a while. Churn reached record numbers the following season when most of those new members upped stick and moved elsewhere.

With two clubs having gone to the wall in the area, you'd think clubs were able to pick & choose their members again. Not so. Pay & play golf is on the up locally and the club's are still working hard to maintain their membership levels.

The problem is, we have lost two generations to the game, something that didn't happen in the past. Several clubs have very low numbers of juniors, again, something that was never an issue in times past. Golf just isn't the draw it once was. We need to be worrying about how club golf will survive rather than argue whether a club can charge a joining fee or not.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 1, 2016)

hovis said:



			So a golf club can do what they like with no consequences.  Thats called ransom!   

If they didn't have joining fee's they might just have to take measures to keep customers happy.  Imagine that
		
Click to expand...

In a members' club the members are not customers but owners so a joining fee is more akin to an investment in a company where they are, themselves, responsible for the running of the Club via the Committee (all of whom are members) and AGM's.

 Obviously it is different at proprietary clubs such as The Belfry where the members have no or limited input into the decision making process.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 1, 2016)

My club has had joining fees and currently has a freeze going on. It's called a degree of tension when some newish members paid and find out others didn't, a matter of 4-6 months later. Ultimately though isn't it simply an economic decision in the same way as buying a car etc. and if you want to join and there are fees involved you have to weigh up the pros and cons of the additional cost and make a decision based on that. 

If clubs feel they have a need and can still attract new members with a fee then of course it makes economic sense to get as much money coming in as they can.


----------



## ChrisB0210 (Sep 1, 2016)

Our club doesn't have a joining fee and hasn't had one for quite some time. Our membership is stable in terms of numbers and has increased slightly in the last couple of years. Our fees are competitive when compared with other nearby clubs.

There are a few clubs in the area that do charge a joining fee. Two of these are considered as the most prestigious clubs in the area, with courses that pretty much live up to that billing and the others are good courses, albeit none claim to be as prestigious as the top two.

As far as I'm aware, all the clubs charging a joining fee are doing well, although they do have membership vacancies (I know because I nearly joined one earlier this year following "issues" at my present club) despite the joining fee and cost of membership.

I don't really have a set view on joining fees if I'm being honest. If I wanted to join a club that charged one then it's unlikely the joining fee would put me off. That said, if I didn't feel the overall fees represented good value for money, then I wouldn't look to join the club in question.


----------



## hovis (Sep 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Obviously it is different at proprietary clubs such as The Belfry where the members have no or limited input into the decision making process.
		
Click to expand...

What decision do us members at the belfry need to make.   The belfry is money driven and so has to stay on top of things to keep custom.  As a member we benefit from this  with fantastic drainage (still open in winter when most are shut)   great greens and the list could go on.    

I mentioned to the golf director that the tee box on the 9th was uneven and the green staff started work on it the next day (major work)

If the belfry didn't come up with the goods then i'd leave.  I'm not financially handcuffed to them


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

hovis said:



			What decision do us members at the belfry need to make.   The belfry is money driven and so has to stay on top of things to keep custom.  As a member we benefit from this  with fantastic drainage (still open in winter when most are shut)   great greens and the list could go on.    

I mentioned to the golf director that the tee box on the 9th was uneven and the green staff started work on it the next day (major work)

If the belfry didn't come up with the goods then i'd leave.  I'm not financially handcuffed to them
		
Click to expand...

The belfry who are money driven assign a work force and materials to rebuild a tee because one member mentions it and even more so they do it the very next day ?!?


----------



## GB72 (Sep 1, 2016)

To be fair, though run by committee I have never felt that I have any more say at any club than I would at a course like the Belfry. Both private member's clubs were run in the interests of certain sets of members, the views of others may as well not exist.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

GB72 said:



			To be fair, though run by committee I have never felt that I have any more say at any club than I would at a course like the Belfry. Both private member's clubs were run in the interests of certain sets of members, the views of others may as well not exist.
		
Click to expand...

I think and I hope those sort of committees are dying away - we are trying to break down those types of things happening to the point now the ones complaining are the ones that have had it their own way for years - the membership are learning that they do have a say and a voice - all through better communication


----------



## GB72 (Sep 1, 2016)

Sadly not round here. Captain picks successor, committee nominates and seconds new members. Same old thing every year. Never felt any more than a customer at any of the private member's clubs I have been a member of.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 1, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Sadly not round here. Captain picks successor, committee nominates and seconds new members. Same old thing every year. Never felt any more than a customer at any of the private member's clubs I have been a member of.
		
Click to expand...

Captain picks his successor for us but needs to be ratified at AGM

Treasurer is set 

All other posts are from the membership with proposal from another two members then voted by the membership 

Wouldn't like to be at a club you are talking about - it seems like a job for the old boys


----------



## chrisd (Sep 1, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Private members clubs have committees that are answerable to the members. I wouldn't join a proprietary club that had a joining fee where an owner can do whatever he wants.
		
Click to expand...

That's a very fair point .......... unusual for such sound sense from a Lycra wearing bicycle rider!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 1, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Sadly not round here. Captain picks successor, committee nominates and seconds new members. Same old thing every year. Never felt any more than a customer at any of the private member's clubs I have been a member of.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone can stand for committee and at most clubs you can only serve for a fixed period of time. If you don't like what your committee are doing why not stand for election yourself? Lots of people whinge about things at their club but aren't prepared to do anything about it.


----------



## 351DRIVER (Sep 2, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Anyone can stand for committee and at most clubs you can only serve for a fixed period of time. If you don't like what your committee are doing why not stand for election yourself? Lots of people whinge about things at their club but aren't prepared to do anything about it.
		
Click to expand...

No joining fee, just leave


----------



## HDID Kenny (Sep 2, 2016)

drive4show said:



			I'm a firm believer in joining fees, it promotes a bit of loyalty to the club and encourages members to stay long term which gives the benefit to the club of being able to plan and finance long term improvements.
		
Click to expand...

^^^ exactly this ours are Â£1000 payable over 4 years, ps a lot less than they used too be. If you leave you can return within a 10 year period without having to pay it again.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 2, 2016)

Captain picks a vice and both have to be ratified by the board and approved by the members at the AGM. All committee posts are open to all to stand and be voted in so from that perspective we have a say. However in terms of direction, how the money is spent, events held etc there is nothing we can do and this is decided by the directors and committee. 

It would be nice to see something via email or even published and left in the clubhouse to give updates on all things club related, especially things like finances rather than waiting for the annual accounts and green keeper, captain, committee reports in the AGM pack


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 2, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Sadly not round here. Captain picks successor, committee nominates and seconds new members. Same old thing every year. Never felt any more than a customer at any of the private member's clubs I have been a member of.
		
Click to expand...

Have you ever approached a committee to offer your services?


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 2, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Captain picks a vice and both have to be ratified by the board and approved by the members at the AGM. All committee posts are open to all to stand and be voted in so from that perspective we have a say. However in terms of direction, how the money is spent, events held etc there is nothing we can do and this is decided by the directors and committee. 

It would be nice to see something via email or even published and left in the clubhouse to give updates on all things club related, especially things like finances rather than waiting for the annual accounts and green keeper, captain, committee reports in the AGM pack
		
Click to expand...

We give monthly newsletters and the minutes are available in the clubhouse from all the committees, and they are also e-mailed to the membership, along with the newsletters (something I suggested).

One person said "what about the people who don't have e-mails".

I said anyone can get a free email address, can put a relative's e-mail address down etc. 98% of the other members shouldn't be excluded just because of 2% who don't have them, but sadly the professionally offended want to be all-inclusive.......for people who aren't inclusive!!!!!


----------



## Snelly (Sep 2, 2016)

I paid a joint fee to get in to my new club.  It is the best in the area and the only one that still has a joining fee.  Membership is closed, those on the waiting list have been told they will have to simply wait as the club does not want any more members or the course would become too busy at peak times and this would affect the pace of play. 

It is a great situation to be in.


Obviously, my club are charging joining fees because they can and it ensures loyalty.  I was happy to pay it.  Others on this thread clearly would not be.  That is fine, do whatever suits you. However, pointing to joining fees as some kind of problem for the game or clubs is just daft.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 2, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			We give monthly newsletters and the minutes are available in the clubhouse from all the committees, and they are also e-mailed to the membership, along with the newsletters (something I suggested).

One person said "what about the people who don't have e-mails".

I said anyone can get a free email address, can put a relative's e-mail address down etc. 98% of the other members shouldn't be excluded just because of 2% who don't have them, but sadly the professionally offended want to be all-inclusive.......for people who aren't inclusive!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Seems to be the situation we are in. We get some emails, usually with the new code for the security doors and gates, the next social golf etc but never anything of significance like green keeper reports, captains report.


----------



## hovis (Sep 2, 2016)

Today my friend said that his usual playing partner has had major surgery and has give up golf.  "I've got no one to play with"  he said.   I asked him to join my club and he said " piss off!!! Ive only just paid my Â£1500 joining fee"

So my friend feels like he has to stay because of money's paid!!    Hope he's good at making friends


----------



## Norrin Radd (Sep 2, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Seems to be the situation we are in. We get some emails, usually with the new code for the security doors and gates, the next social golf etc but never anything of significance like green keeper reports, captains report.
		
Click to expand...


have you asked for a captains report or a green keepers report?
 maybe they are there to be seen by one and all if they asked for them Martin.
 it cant hurt to ask


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 2, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			have you asked for a captains report or a green keepers report?
 maybe they are there to be seen by one and all if they asked for them Martin.
 it cant hurt to ask
		
Click to expand...

Yes and no, they aren't produced other than for the AGM pack that goes out before the meeting


----------



## SammmeBee (Sep 2, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Seems to be the situation we are in. We get some emails, usually with the new code for the security doors and gates, the next social golf etc but never anything of significance like green keeper reports, captains report.
		
Click to expand...

Ever asked for one?


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 2, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Seems to be the situation we are in. We get some emails, usually with the new code for the security doors and gates, the next social golf etc but never anything of significance like green keeper reports, captains report.
		
Click to expand...

Write them a letter/e-mail,just dont expect to see it mentioned in the non-published minutes!


----------



## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2016)

There's no one single model for this. 

We're a private members club - run by the members (via committees) for the members (but obviously with paid staff to do the leg work). First comment to make is that we are a "club". Effectively, we're a bunch of people who have a golf course. We dont want people to come & play golf - we want people to come and play golf _with us_. However none this dictates whether we should or should not have joining fee.

 But, we do have a joining fee - 2 times the annual membership. My thinking is that this means that anyone contemplating  joining must have a particular desire to join - else they wouldn't be contemplating paying the joining fee. And why wouldn't those be the folk we want - ie those who are thinking "thats where i want to play golf and thems the people i want to play golf with". And thinking it to the extent that they're willing to part with good money to do it.  Given that we are full, there must be something attractive about what we are and what we do that tempts them to part with the joining  fee. If someone is not willing to pay the fee, then obviously we're  not an attractive enough proposition. Fair enough.

When you join, you're investing in the club - subs & greenfees pay the running cost and the joining fees pay for improvements. (Ok, too simplistic but it will do for now).

But as i say, it's  not the only way. It work for us, it may not work for you. 

(And if anyone thinks it  still smacks of faux elitism, or snobbery,  you can join as a temporary member and then sign up fully after a year - at which point you pay the fee.  You could just walk away, but nearly everyone signs.)


----------



## IanM (Sep 3, 2016)

In a word...of course they are making it harder!  

My Club still charges them, 1200 quid... Which in South Wales is lots!  But the committee and oldies argues that everyone's paid it, so keeps all members equal.  We allow installements too... And the Club is full (give or take). They also say that it stops folk moving around every couple of years as it happening at other clubs.

Surely these things have had their day in most places...


----------



## NWJocko (Sep 3, 2016)

hovis said:



			Today my friend said that his usual playing partner has had major surgery and has give up golf.  "I've got no one to play with"  he said.   I asked him to join my club and he said " piss off!!! Ive only just paid my Â£1500 joining fee"

So my friend feels like he has to stay because of money's paid!!    Hope he's good at making friends
		
Click to expand...

I find this really odd, does your pal really just play with 1 other person?

How can you be a member of a golf club and have nobody to play with!? I joined my place knowing 2 members and now regularly play with probably 50/60 different folk in different groups! 

Re Joining fees, I paid one because I wanted to join that particular club, there's all manner of options for memberships in the area to suit all tastes and budgets so if you don't want to pay one you don't have to.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			I find this really odd, does your pal really just play with 1 other person?

How can you be a member of a golf club and have nobody to play with!? I joined my place knowing 2 members and now regularly play with probably 50/60 different folk in different groups! 

Re Joining fees, I paid one because I wanted to join that particular club, there's all manner of options for memberships in the area to suit all tastes and budgets so if you don't want to pay one you don't have to.
		
Click to expand...


+1.

Depends upon whether you just want a golf course to play on with a small circle of friends or want to belong to a club with a wide range of members, some of whom you may not wish to play with but you would happily do so with the majority.

Neither is right or wrong and there are sufficient options available these days to us all.

The problem seems to arise when someone wishes (probably due to the course) to join a club that has joining fees and that person does not wish to pay a fee. If the members of that club wish joining fees to be paid then that is a choice that they are entitled to make.

IMO joining fees should only be charged by members' clubs as a stakeholding and certainly not by proprietary clubs.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

If they were a good idea then clubs wouldn't be dropping them. Much like BRS no one going from that to a roll up system


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			If they were a good idea then clubs wouldn't be dropping them. Much like BRS no one going from that to a roll up system
		
Click to expand...

Don't know many members' clubs round here who are abandoning joining fees nor using tee-booking for anything other than competitions.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Don't know many members' clubs round here who are abandoning joining fees nor using tee-booking for anything other than competitions.
		
Click to expand...

Round there is exactly that.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Round there is exactly that.
		
Click to expand...

My! what a droll, little fellow you are.


----------



## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2016)

I wonder how many areas are 100% joining fees. I'm pretty sure everyone has access to golf without a joining fee. However, if someone wants to join a specific club and it has a joining fee, tough. Pay up or play elsewhere.


----------



## bluewolf (Sep 3, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder how many areas are 100% joining fees. I'm pretty sure everyone has access to golf without a joining fee. However, if someone wants to join a specific club and it has a joining fee, tough. Pay up or play elsewhere.
		
Click to expand...

Most members clubs around here have removed the joining fee. However, in a few years I'm hoping to join S&A, and all the clubs around there still have it. I'm happy to accept that as it really is a superb club/course.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

Clubs that charge a joining fee are in a minority. Where are 10 to 15 years ago it was common place


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Clubs that charge a joining fee are in a minority. Where are 10 to 15 years ago it was common place
		
Click to expand...

I assume you can support that claim.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I assume you can support that claim.
		
Click to expand...

Yes thanks.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Yes thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Go ahead then, dazzle me with your statistical wizardry.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Go ahead then, dazzle me with your statistical wizardry.
		
Click to expand...

Someone's already done it thanks. 
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/features/the-game/joining-fees-conundrum-66294


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Someone's already done it thanks. 
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/features/the-game/joining-fees-conundrum-66294

Click to expand...

Actually there are no statistics in that article and, in any event, joining fees are IMO only applicable to members' clubs. Most of those continue to charge a joining fee.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually there are no statistics in that article and, in any event, joining fees are IMO only applicable to members' clubs. Most of those continue to charge a joining fee.
		
Click to expand...

Garbage. Which you can't back up in anyway at all.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 3, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Garbage. Which you can't back up in anyway at all.
		
Click to expand...


England Golf's 2014 survey of Golf Club Membership showed only 37% of those surveyed charged a joining fee.

BUT only 65% of the clubs participating in the survey were members' clubs and they were the majority of those charging joining fees.


----------



## GB72 (Sep 3, 2016)

2 members clubs in my area have both ditched joining fees. Sadly not addressed other issues with member retention. Apparently 25% of members aged 25 to 35 leave after only one year as they find club life too focused on older members


----------



## hovis (Sep 3, 2016)

GB72 said:



			2 members clubs in my area have both ditched joining fees. Sadly not addressed other issues with member retention. Apparently 25% of members aged 25 to 35 leave after only one year as they find club life too focused on older members
		
Click to expand...

The main thing stopping me joining another local club is they have dedicated senior tee off mornings twice a week (smacked bang in the middle of when i need to play)


----------



## NWJocko (Sep 3, 2016)

bluewolf said:



			Most members clubs around here have removed the joining fee.* However, in a few years I'm hoping to join S&A*, and all the clubs around there still have it. *I'm happy to accept that as it really is a superb club/course.*

Click to expand...

You're not wrong, I love that place, the whole package of course/clubhouse etc is as good as it gets for a members club imo.

I'll look forward to playing there every other week when you join......


----------



## peterlav (Sep 4, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			You're not wrong, I love that place, the whole package of course/clubhouse etc is as good as it gets for a members club imo.

I'll look forward to playing there every other week when you join...... 

Click to expand...

As I've said, always welcome for a game mate, just let me know a couple of weeks in advance when you can play 
Although not too sure if Danny is available at the moment, his noodle arms have suffered another major injury!!!


----------



## chellie (Sep 4, 2016)

NWJocko said:



			I find this really odd, does your pal really just play with 1 other person?

How can you be a member of a golf club and have nobody to play with!? I joined my place knowing 2 members and now regularly play with probably 50/60 different folk in different groups! 

Re Joining fees, I paid one because I wanted to join that particular club, there's all manner of options for memberships in the area to suit all tastes and budgets so if you don't want to pay one you don't have to.
		
Click to expand...


This. We joined without knowing anyone else.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 4, 2016)

Interesting thread. There's absolutely no way I'd pay a joining fee, purely because I can't afford it - other reasons are simply moot.
That's not to say they don't have their place.
But I think if golf wants to bring new people into the game there has to be a good standard of golf accessible to the working classes who don't have a grand or two disposable income floating around.
Municipal courses and your average pay and play round here just aren't up to the quality needed to keep an improving beginner in the game.
More modern thinking such as the different levels mentioned a few pages ago for people playing a dozen, or two dozen times a year make total sense.
If golf is to improve its appeal it's been well quoted that TIME & AFFORDABILITY are the two biggest things preventing busy family men and women from taking up the game seriously. And many people just can't afford the time to play the twice a week needed to justify larger joining and membership fees.
At the moment golf is still far more elitist than it could and (Imnvho) should be - that's not to say it shouldn't have an elite, but the bottom of the ladder needs to be more appealing to those willing to join the first rung.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Interesting thread. There's absolutely no way I'd pay a joining fee, purely because I can't afford it - other reasons are simply moot.
That's not to say they don't have their place.
But I think if golf wants to bring new people into the game there has to be a good standard of golf accessible to the working classes who don't have a grand or two disposable income floating around.
Municipal courses and your average pay and play round here just aren't up to the quality needed to keep an improving beginner in the game.
More modern thinking such as the different levels mentioned a few pages ago for people playing a dozen, or two dozen times a year make total sense.
If golf is to improve its appeal it's been well quoted that TIME & AFFORDABILITY are the two biggest things preventing busy family men and women from taking up the game seriously. And many people just can't afford the time to play the twice a week needed to justify larger joining and membership fees.
At the moment golf is still far more elitist than it could and (Imnvho) should be - that's not to say it shouldn't have an elite, but the bottom of the ladder needs to be more appealing to those willing to join the first rung.
		
Click to expand...


A good deal amount of clubs ( and expect it to be most of the members clubs bar the top 20 ) allow joining fees to be paid over a number of years - some up to 5 so you don't have to have a couple grand just stashed away 

Golf is expensive - it's expensive to join a club because it's expensive to get a golf course in good condition- equipment costs a lot plus manpower - add in all the clubhouse expenditure and it mounts up - if people want to play on good golf courses then the price will reflect that 

But there is always golf courses around that offer pay and play facilities which is what will satisfy the once in a month player


----------



## fundy (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A good deal amount of clubs ( and expect it to be most of the members clubs bar the top 20 ) allow joining fees to be paid over a number of years - *some up to 5 so you don't have to have a couple grand just stashed away* 

Golf is expensive - it's expensive to join a club because it's expensive to get a golf course in good condition- equipment costs a lot plus manpower - add in all the clubhouse expenditure and it mounts up - if people want to play on good golf courses then the price will reflect that 

But there is always golf courses around that offer pay and play facilities which is what will satisfy the once in a month player
		
Click to expand...

so how much do you need for a year including 1/5th joining fee do you need for a years golf?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

fundy said:



			so how much do you need for a year including 1/5th joining fee do you need for a years golf?
		
Click to expand...

All depends on which club you want to join - for me it was an extra Â£20 per month

Around here for the members clubs they are all around Â£900 -Â£1000


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Sep 4, 2016)

A club near me, which held regional Open qualifiers, has a joining fee than can be paid over 10 years. I think it's about Â£1k in total joining fee. 
I agree with joining fees, as I think it does promote some stability and loyalty from new members.
I think the whole golf expense arguement needs to be put into context with other life expenses we make. Cigarettes Â£10 a pack is it? Gym memberships, Â£40/50 a month? Sky, tv, mobile phone contracts........


----------



## richart (Sep 4, 2016)

I had a look at Remedy Oak near Bournemouth's joining fees the other day after playing there. 

There is a basic Â£2500 one, or alternatively you can pay a deposit of Â£10,000 which you get back when you leave, and someone takes your place. Third option is to pay a higher annual fee, which looks like an additional Â£500 a year. Basic annual fees are about Â£2250. They have a limit of 400 members.

I have a feeling it was a lot more expensive to join a few years back, so imagine they are short on numbers.


----------



## bluewolf (Sep 4, 2016)

peterlav said:



			As I've said, always welcome for a game mate, just let me know a couple of weeks in advance when you can play 
Although not too sure if Danny is available at the moment, his noodle arms have suffered another major injury!!!
		
Click to expand...

:rofl:

Im just starting playing again now mate. Played 9 holes on Friday. Bought another set of irons on Saturday. Usual weekend stuff.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 4, 2016)

Joining fees arent hurting anyone, most of my local clubs had ones in exces of 1500, i think juts John O gaunt is hanging on in there with an OTT fee.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But there is always golf courses around that offer pay and play facilities which is what will satisfy the once in a month player
		
Click to expand...

So you have the right to tell a more occasional player what level of quality they can permitted to play?

There is a huge gulf between the clubs you are talking about and most pay and play courses ( at least round here there is).

There is a potentially huge non golfing population who, even if they could afford a Â£1200 fee and Â£1200 subs would find it difficult to justify paying for 15-20 rounds of golf a year.

But with more flexible fee structures they could be invited into the golfing fraternity to get their handicaps, play in club comps and be genuine club members. 

I can't imagine you are, but that last paragraph makes you sound like a proper patronising golf snob:
I can afford the time and money to play at these clubs so those who can't should only be allowed on the local muni....

Like I said, I think there's room for a middle ground.

Golf shouldn't be an elitist sport, surely?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			So you have the right to tell a more occasional player what level of quality they can permitted to play?

There is a huge gulf between the clubs you are talking about and most pay and play courses ( at least round here there is).

There is a potentially huge non golfing population who, even if they could afford a Â£1200 fee and Â£1200 subs would find it difficult to justify paying for 15-20 rounds of golf a year.

But with more flexible fee structures they could be invited into the golfing fraternity to get their handicaps, play in club comps and be genuine club members. 

I can't imagine you are, but that last paragraph makes you sound like a proper patronising golf snob:
I can afford the time and money to play at these clubs so those who can't should only be allowed on the local muni....

Like I said, I think there's room for a middle ground.

Golf shouldn't be an elitist sport, surely?
		
Click to expand...


Golf club membership is no different to anything else.

I would like a Bentley but I cannot afford one; should the local dealer make one available to me on terms I can afford.

Members who "own" a club are surely entitled to operate a membership structure that they feel best suits their club and its needs.

If they wish to offer flexible packages then fine but equally if they choose a system that creates exclusivity then, again, fine; it is their choice.

With proprietary clubs then it is likely to be determined by commercial forces.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			So you have the right to tell a more occasional player what level of quality they can permitted to play?

There is a huge gulf between the clubs you are talking about and most pay and play courses ( at least round here there is).

There is a potentially huge non golfing population who, even if they could afford a Â£1200 fee and Â£1200 subs would find it difficult to justify paying for 15-20 rounds of golf a year.

But with more flexible fee structures they could be invited into the golfing fraternity to get their handicaps, play in club comps and be genuine club members. 

I can't imagine you are, but that last paragraph makes you sound like a proper patronising golf snob:
I can afford the time and money to play at these clubs so those who can't should only be allowed on the local muni....

Like I said, I think there's room for a middle ground.

Golf shouldn't be an elitist sport, surely?
		
Click to expand...

If you want to play at a quality course then you pay for it like others 

Those quality courses need money to keep them at the level they require 

I haven't said anyone should be at a muni course - I said there is plenty pay and play courses around that will satisfy the needs of people who can't justify paying full membership due the amount of games they can play 

We have plenty of flexible pay schemes - golf at a members club for the same price as someone pays for sky Â£100 a month 

As with everything in life you have a choice - I could move to a more expensive club if i wish and would love to be a member there but I can't justify the fee so I haven't joined - shall I ask them for a cheap method ? I also want a Audi R8 that I'll only drive 3 times - do you think the garage will give me it cheap ?


----------



## GB72 (Sep 4, 2016)

I see it slightly differently. If you want to be more exclusive or have higher upkeep costs then up the annual subscription. A joining fee is asking me to pay you money for the privilege of paying you more money every year and to make it less attractive to spend that money elsewhere if I am not satisfied. 

As for the need for joining fees as part of the finances, how can that be part of the annual calculation. A club has no knowledge of how many joining fees it will receive or when so cannot rely on them as part of their planned variable cost spend.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

GB72 said:



			I see it slightly differently. If *you *want to be more exclusive or have higher upkeep costs then up the annual subscription. A joining fee is asking me to pay *you *money for the privilege of paying *you* more money every year and to make it less attractive to spend that money elsewhere if I am not satisfied. 

As for the need for joining fees as part of the finances, how can that be part of the annual calculation. A club has no knowledge of how many joining fees it will receive or when so cannot rely on them as part of their planned variable cost spend.
		
Click to expand...

I believe you are a member of a members'club.

In which case the "*you*" to which you refer is yourself (and your fellow members). From previous posts it appears that you find it difficult to integrate within your club but that does not alter the fact that you are still one part of the body to which you pay your subs.

Therefore, if you disagree with joining fees propose an alternative at your next AGM.


----------



## GB72 (Sep 4, 2016)

Our club has already ditched them as have pretty much all the members clubs in the area. Just because I disagree with them does not mean I did not have to pay them as a few years ago pretty much all of the clubs in the area charged them.

Personally I still do not agree with them. I have seen no difference between when they were charged and when they were not. Course condition has stayed the same etc. Still just see them as golden handcuffs. In fact all I have heard is the odd tutt from members not approving of some of the new people that have taken up the game and joined since which tends to make me feel that the original purpose was one of elitism and not financial necessity


----------



## larmen (Sep 5, 2016)

Can I ask, for these joining fees do people get anything in return?

Not that on can compare it, but at my running club we introduced a joining fee, it's Â£30 now. For that you get a voucher for club vest so you can represent the club in events and a new members pack explaining what we do when, and how to get involved. It's designed by us, but fulfilled by an external company. It basically is designed to get the new members more involved. Before that we had many people that liked to race/participate but didn't have the kit even that they could easily buy it for Â£20ish. Taking out some procrastination.

I know it's not the Â£1000+ golf clubs charge but it's a 'fee with a purpose', not a money making exercise.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If you want to play at a quality course then you pay for it like others 

Those quality courses need money to keep them at the level they require 

I haven't said anyone should be at a muni course - I said there is plenty pay and play courses around that will satisfy the needs of people who can't justify paying full membership due the amount of games they can play 

We have plenty of flexible pay schemes - golf at a members club for the same price as someone pays for sky Â£100 a month 

As with everything in life you have a choice - I could move to a more expensive club if i wish and would love to be a member there but I can't justify the fee so I haven't joined - shall I ask them for a cheap method ? I also want a Audi R8 that I'll only drive 3 times - do you think the garage will give me it cheap ?
		
Click to expand...

I think there are driving clubs that you can join to get into otherwise unaffordable quality cars every now and then ðŸ˜‰
But we digress....
Round here West Sussex is as good a course as any but I wouldn't ever consider it because it has a joining fee. 
East Sussex National is also a top place to play if you've got Â£1700 and can afford the time and money to get your value out of it.They do a flexible membership at similar rates - still out of my league.
Ignoring muni golf you can pay & play at Wellshurst. Just ask Smiffy ( it's not as bad as he says but....)
But in the middle there are clubs like Eastbourne Downs where you can play a few times a year for only Â£30 a month. Or Haywards Heath where Â£400 will get you 12-18 games a year.
As far as I'm aware these are both decent enough clubs, not absolutely top notch, but a whole lot better than Waterhall municipal.
I'm not saying I will be the biggest contributor to any club, but my few quid keeps the game affordable for me, and helps with the coffers at these mid quality courses. 
10 part time members like me are worth more in the long run  than a couple of elitist members paying Â£1k fee +Â£1k subs although the money in year one is exactly the same.
And for golf to flourish I think we should want as many of those part timers to start now, so that as time progresses and they can afford to upgrade, they won't be lost to the game in the future.
(An oversimplification of the maths, I know, but the principle works, I think)
Let me repeat. I'm not knocking West Sussex, but if all clubs were like that I'd never pick up a club again ('Ok, now I've set that up for someone...be gentle ðŸ˜˜)


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			. Ignoring muni golf you can pay & play at Wellshurst. Just ask Smiffy ( *it's not as bad as he says* but....)
		
Click to expand...

Oh but it is!!
It's cheap golf, but personally I would rather pay the extra and play somewhere like the Nevill, Piltdown, Crowborough, East Sussex National or Lamberhurst even if it meant getting out twice a month rather than four times.
Prior to playing there for the 1st time, I asked somebody what it was like. "It's like a mini East Sussex National" came the reply. Yeah right. After being carpet bombed by the Luftwaffe????


----------



## SammmeBee (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			So you have the right to tell a more occasional player what level of quality they can permitted to play?
		
Click to expand...

It's called a green fee.......


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			It's called a green fee.......
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but do you have the right to say what quality of course will satisfy me, golfwise. See Smiffy's post.

If you are advocating an 'every club should have a joining fee' stance, then you are barring huge swathes of potential golfers from ever taking the game up more seriously.

Yes, I can pay a green fee pretty much anywhere, but without a handicap I can't maintain  even basic human rights- like go on a forum meet for example.

Inhumane I tell you......


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Oh but it is!!
It's cheap golf, but personally I would rather pay the extra and play somewhere like the Nevill, Piltdown, Crowborough, East Sussex National or Lamberhurst even if it meant getting out twice a month rather than four times.
Prior to playing there for the 1st time, I asked somebody what it was like. "It's like a mini East Sussex National" came the reply. Yeah right. After being carpet bombed by the Luftwaffe????
		
Click to expand...

Ah,  but have you played it since they turned it bum about breast?
They even cut the greens and everything nowadays.
All mod cons I tells ye,


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 5, 2016)

I've seen many clubs starting to offer more flexible types of membership where you pay a fee, can get a handicap and play in comps, but have to simply pay reduced green fees as and when you want to play. Ideal for those with families or unable to commit to playing every week

I played at Kingswood the other week and they do a lifestyle membership http://golf.kingswood-golf.co.uk/news-events/ and if clubs can still get revenue with a more flexible range of schemes surely it negates the issue of having joining fees and sure,y making it easier for members to pay for just the golf they use will retain their membership


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Ah,  but have you played it since they turned it bum about breast?
They even cut the greens and everything nowadays.
All mod cons I tells ye,
		
Click to expand...

Still wouldn't get me down there.
Goat track xxxxxx


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I think there are driving clubs that you can join to get into otherwise unaffordable quality cars every now and then ðŸ˜‰
But we digress....
Round here West Sussex is as good a course as any but I wouldn't ever consider it because it has a joining fee. 
East Sussex National is also a top place to play if you've got Â£1700 and can afford the time and money to get your value out of it.They do a flexible membership at similar rates - still out of my league.
Ignoring muni golf you can pay & play at Wellshurst. Just ask Smiffy ( it's not as bad as he says but....)
But in the middle there are clubs like Eastbourne Downs where you can play a few times a year for only Â£30 a month. Or Haywards Heath where Â£400 will get you 12-18 games a year.
As far as I'm aware these are both decent enough clubs, not absolutely top notch, but a whole lot better than Waterhall municipal.
I'm not saying I will be the biggest contributor to any club, but my few quid keeps the game affordable for me, and helps with the coffers at these mid quality courses. 
10 part time members like me are worth more in the long run  than a couple of elitist members paying Â£1k fee +Â£1k subs although the money in year one is exactly the same.
And for golf to flourish I think we should want as many of those part timers to start now, so that as time progresses and they can afford to upgrade, they won't be lost to the game in the future.
(An oversimplification of the maths, I know, but the principle works, I think)
Let me repeat. I'm not knocking West Sussex, but if all clubs were like that I'd never pick up a club again ('Ok, now I've set that up for someone...be gentle ðŸ˜˜)
		
Click to expand...

So basically the better courses charge the most and have a joining fee

You want to be able to be a member of such clubs but can't justify spending that much money because you don't play enough so you want them to change their membership so that you can pay a smaller fee ? 

Why should a club do that when they have people willing to pay what is needed to join ? 

It seems you want to be affordable for you ? - well I'm sure there will be clubs that you can play at but its seem you want the best but not willing to pay the going rate


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			If you are advocating an 'every club should have a joining fee' stance, then you are barring huge swathes of potential golfers from ever taking the game up more seriously.

Yes, I can pay a green fee pretty much anywhere, but without a handicap I can't maintain  even basic human rights- like go on a forum meet for example.

Inhumane I tell you......
		
Click to expand...

OK, you mentioned earlier about simple analogies, here is one for you.........

2 private clubs in your area, neither has a joining fee and both have 500 members each paying Â£1000 a year. Club A has an issue of some description, lets say disease in the greens. The members get cheesed off and at the end of the year half of them decide to leave and join club B which is in much better condition. So now you have 250 members at club A and 750 members at club B. Club A needs lots of money to remedy the issue with the greens but doesn't have it as their income has been reduced by 50% and now club B is flourishing and getting better because their income has increased massively. So club A is now on a downward spiral and getting worse, more people want to leave and join club B but they are now full and have a waiting list. Club A could ultimately go bust and close leaving the remaining members with nowhere to play.

So is this making golf inclusive to all?

This analogy is extremely simplistic but if both clubs had joining fees the chances are few(er) people would have left club A in the first place and they would have been able to resolve the issues and get back on track, people would have had a choice where to play. 

I have paid 2 joining fees in my time and I believe they are a protective mechanism to help clubs survive.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I think there are driving clubs that you can join to get into otherwise unaffordable quality cars every now and then ðŸ˜‰
But we digress....
Round here West Sussex is as good a course as any but I wouldn't ever consider it because it has a joining fee. 
East Sussex National is also a top place to play if you've got Â£1700 and can afford the time and money to get your value out of it.They do a flexible membership at similar rates - still out of my league.
Ignoring muni golf you can pay & play at Wellshurst. Just ask Smiffy ( it's not as bad as he says but....)
But in the middle there are clubs like Eastbourne Downs where you can play a few times a year for only Â£30 a month. Or Haywards Heath where Â£400 will get you 12-18 games a year.
As far as I'm aware these are both decent enough clubs, not absolutely top notch, but a whole lot better than Waterhall municipal.
I'm not saying I will be the biggest contributor to any club, but my few quid keeps the game affordable for me, and helps with the coffers at these mid quality courses. 
10 part time members like me are worth more in the long run  than a couple of elitist members paying Â£1k fee +Â£1k subs although the money in year one is exactly the same.
And for golf to flourish I think we should want as many of those part timers to start now, so that as time progresses and they can afford to upgrade, they won't be lost to the game in the future.
(An oversimplification of the maths, I know, but the principle works, I think)
Let me repeat. I'm not knocking West Sussex, but if all clubs were like that I'd never pick up a club again ('Ok, now I've set that up for someone...be gentle ðŸ˜˜)
		
Click to expand...

Ultimately though it is nothing more than a consumer decision. There are lots of clubs locally that still charge a joining fee and still attract members and it's no different to deciding on a BMW or something cheaper and whether you want to pay more for a better car or in this case golf club or not. Joining fees aren't going away while clubs can charge them and get people through the doors

You simply have to look at the quality of a course, and the enjoyment it'll offer week in week out, look at how easy it is to integrate and play comps, the atmosphere etc and decide what you want from a club and then work out if you are getting value for money and join or not.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 5, 2016)

drive4show said:



			OK, you mentioned earlier about simple analogies, here is one for you.........

2 private clubs in your area, neither has a joining fee and both have 500 members each paying Â£1000 a year. Club A has an issue of some description, lets say disease in the greens. The members get cheesed off and at the end of the year half of them decide to leave and join club B which is in much better condition. So now you have 250 members at club A and 750 members at club B. Club A needs lots of money to remedy the issue with the greens but doesn't have it as their income has been reduced by 50% and now club B is flourishing and getting better because their income has increased massively. So club A is now on a downward spiral and getting worse, more people want to leave and join club B but they are now full and have a waiting list. Club A could ultimately go bust and close leaving the remaining members with nowhere to play.

So is this making golf inclusive to all?

This analogy is extremely simplistic but if both clubs had joining fees the chances are few(er) people would have left club A in the first place and they would have been able to resolve the issues and get back on track, people would have had a choice where to play. 

I have paid 2 joining fees in my time and I believe they are a protective mechanism to help clubs survive.
		
Click to expand...

No they are are throw back to when joining the local GC was seen as a status symbol. When the time comes that your club drops joining fees will you move to somewhere that still has one?


----------



## Snelly (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Round here West Sussex is as good a course as any but I wouldn't ever consider it because it has a joining fee.
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure you are quite the right fit for the West Sussex either.


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I am not sure you are quite the right fit for the West Sussex either.
		
Click to expand...

Hope it's not _*that*_ posh Snelly, I am playing there on Sunday


----------



## Snelly (Sep 5, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			No they are are throw back to when joining the local GC was seen as a status symbol. When the time comes that your club drops joining fees will you move to somewhere that still has one?
		
Click to expand...


Why can't you just accept that some clubs are so desirable that people are happy to pay a joining fee?  It doesn't affect you so why are you spouting vitriol about them?  Your rantings won't make the slightest difference to anything.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			Why can't you just accept that some clubs are so desirable that people are happy to pay a joining fee?  It doesn't affect you so why are you spouting vitriol about them?  Your rantings won't make the slightest difference to anything.
		
Click to expand...

Its a genusine question. Most clubs dont have a joining fee and yours like, D4Ss will go at some point. It will still be the same club I guess, but some of you seem to think that clubs with joining fees are somehow of a better standing than those without.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Its a genusine question. Most clubs dont have a joining fee and yours like, D4Ss will go at some point. It will still be the same club I guess, but some of you seem to think that clubs with joining fees are somehow of a better standing than those without.
		
Click to expand...


I have read through the thread and cannot see where anybody has claimed that those charging a joining fee are superior to others. Merely, they have suggested that it might engender a greater level of commitment by members to what is, after all, their own organisation.

If, as a financial model, it works for some clubs then where is the problem. Equally, if in years to come it is no longer working then fees may be withdrawn.

As with so many things there is no right or wrong answer.


----------



## richart (Sep 5, 2016)

Most clubs around me have joining fees. Some didn't have them five/ten years ago. We have re-introduced a joining fee, as the club is popular and the membership for 7 day members is full. As the club is a private members one, the extra money raised from joining fees goes back into the club, and reflects in the condition it is in and the clubhouse facilities.

Without the joining fees I imagine the club would have to increase the annual subs ro raise the same revenue, and provide the same facilities. Our annual fees are probably the lowest of clubs around, especially those the other side of the Hampshire/Surrey border.


----------



## JamesR (Sep 5, 2016)

drive4show said:



			OK, you mentioned earlier about simple analogies, here is one for you.........

2 private clubs in your area, neither has a joining fee and both have 500 members each paying Â£1000 a year. Club A has an issue of some description, lets say disease in the greens. The members get cheesed off and at the end of the year half of them decide to leave and join club B which is in much better condition. So now you have 250 members at club A and 750 members at club B. Club A needs lots of money to remedy the issue with the greens but doesn't have it as their income has been reduced by 50% and now club B is flourishing and getting better because their income has increased massively. So club A is now on a downward spiral and getting worse, more people want to leave and join club B but they are now full and have a waiting list. Club A could ultimately go bust and close leaving the remaining members with nowhere to play.

So is this making golf inclusive to all?

This analogy is extremely simplistic but if both clubs had joining fees the chances are few(er) people would have left club A in the first place and they would have been able to resolve the issues and get back on track, people would have had a choice where to play. 

I have paid 2 joining fees in my time and I believe they are a protective mechanism to help clubs survive.
		
Click to expand...

Also, club B may think to themselves "wow, aren't we popular?" and decide that as so many people want to join they can now introduce a joining fee.


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 5, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Its a genusine question. Most clubs dont have a joining fee and yours like, D4Ss will go at some point. It will still be the same club I guess, but some of you seem to think that clubs with joining fees are somehow of a better standing than those without.
		
Click to expand...

Within 25 miles of me:- 

All the average courses have no joining fees and charge Â£1000 a year green fees (including mine).

All the great courses - Wallasey (open qualifier), S and A (held 2 ryder cups), Formby (held major amateur champs), Hillside (open qualifier) and a few others tend to charge Â£1,100 - Â£1,300 a year green fees, but Â£2k plus joining fees.

The better courses are just.............better. You may agree not as a "club", but they are as a course.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverbirdie said:



			Within 25 miles of me:- 

All the average courses have no joining fees and charge Â£1000 a year green fees (including mine).

All the great courses - Wallasey (open qualifier), S and A (held 2 ryder cups), Formby (held major amateur champs), Hillside (open qualifier) and a few others tend to charge Â£1,100 - Â£1,300 a year green fees, but Â£2k plus joining fees.

The better courses are just.............better. You may agree not as a "club", but they are as a course.
		
Click to expand...

Yes same as round here and everywhere I think.


----------



## DCB (Sep 5, 2016)

If a club uses it's joining fee properly it will be far easier to budget for major Capital Expenditure items that simply couldn't be easily funded using annual subscriptions. Look at the costs of ride on mowers, greens mowers, green irons and you'll soon eat into any budget you have if you are just operating on subscriptions only. Even contract hire costs can be exorbitant for the important items of plant that are needed to maintain a course as it should be. 

Whilst a joining fee isn't universally popular, as can be seen in this thread, they do reap rewards for the clubs who do still have them.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2016)

They are part of history and folklore up here. The odd club may have them still but they are a rarity and I can't think of who it would be.

Any additional financial burden is bound to put off new members but joining fees would soon be dropped if the demand was not there. The fact that they still exist in some areas suggest the numbers in those regions are still strong. I'm just glad I don't live in one of those regions as it would undoubtedly affect my ability to join a club.


----------



## hovis (Sep 5, 2016)

A club by me not only demans a Â£1500 joining fee but you have to pay a Â£200 bar levy.  What world do people live in where they find it acceptable to tell people "to be a member of this club you must spend Â£200 in our bar"

More to the point.  People pay it??????????


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 5, 2016)

hovis said:



			A club by me not only demans a Â£1500 joining fee but you have to pay a Â£200 bar levy.  What world do people live in where they find it acceptable to tell people "to be a member of this club you must spend Â£200 in our bar"

More to the point.  People pay it??????????
		
Click to expand...

like all things its supply and demand, if there is a demand people will pay it.

Â£200 in the bar is nothing tbh, if you are using the club properly.

Royal Dornoch has a waiting list, Joining fee  and you have to be a member of the Struie Course (2nd course) for 2 years, plenty will do that because of the Quality of the course.


----------



## GB72 (Sep 5, 2016)

The bar levy is a whole other argument. 

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed. 

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons. 

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.


----------



## hovis (Sep 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			The bar levy is a whole other argument. 

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed. 

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons. 

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't say it any better


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			The bar levy is a whole other argument. 

Again, I think that the club should make the clubhouse something that people want to use rather than have to. I have to drive to the course and so a beer is out of the question and the service can be slow so I do not want to sit around for a sandwich. Add to that the lack of atmosphere and it is not a place that I want to use much. I often go to the pub down the road from where me and my playing partners live for a pint, far more relaxed. 

Add into that the other aspects that put people off golf, time taken being a big one, and the bar levy seems like an issue to those who have to get home after a round for various reasons. 

The days of people being able to spend all day at the club are long gone for many and so having to pay for food and drink that they do not really want is just another extra cost.
		
Click to expand...

Don't want to sound rude but why do you belong to a club where you seem permanently dissatisfied?

You continually suggest what the club should be doing but you don't seem to wish to become involved. Remember in a members' club all the decisions are being made by volunteers. Have you thought of volunteering yourself?


----------



## GB72 (Sep 5, 2016)

I have 2 playing partners on the committee who are continually trying to put forward change but are voted down by the long standing, older members who are voted in every time. Fair enough, if that is what a majority want then that is fair. It is driving them up the wall. They are trying to evolve the club into something that will suit more people and something that will attract different ages and the next generation of golfers whilst the older and more established members want the same club that they have always known. The responsibility to the committee should be to safeguard and develop the club for future generations not to make every decision on what suits this one. One of my playing partners has just produced a report showing how we lose, year on year, 25% of our members aged 25-40 and has researched why they have left but the club will not change to try and accommodate that age group. 
Why do I stay, because unless I want to be a member of a hotel course where getting any sort of reasonable tee time during the summer is next to impossible then there are 2 other courses that are viable options, I have been a member of both and both have the same issues so I stay at the one nearest home. Often thought of jacking in my membership, joining the local 9 hole course to keep a handicap and go nomad but last year my playing partners persuaded me to stay. I will also be staying for the next 2 years as my playing partner will be vice captain next year and captain the year after and so I want to stay to support him through those 2 years. 
Why do I not get directly involved myself, because the committee meetings are at times that do not suit someone who does not get home from work until 7.00 at night most days. If that were not the case and I could actually get to meetings then I would more than happily be involved. 
What I do no like is the attempt to force people to act in a certain way. By the posts on here, the joining fee is to ensure people do not change clubs, the bar levy is to ensure that people spend enough at the club. I believe that clubs should be making their offer so irresistible that people want to stay, make the bar so accommodating that people want to use it, simple. 
Believe it or not, if you knew me you would appreciate that I am by no means a whinger or a militant but I do have opinions and the general attitude of golf clubs near me is one that gets me riled. 

At the moment, my desire to play golf is overriding the desire to leave.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

I know how frustrating it can be to get some older committee members to change their views and, sometimes, patience is the answer as those old guys are not going to be the decision makers forever.

If, however, things do not in the future change it can only be that the majority of members don't want them to change or are too apathetic to address those issues.

I understand that you are not a whinger but, having served on committees myself, I get a little irritated by those who criticise but are either unwilling to themselves come forward or, at least, offer constructive alternatives to the _status quo_.


----------



## chellie (Sep 5, 2016)

GB72 said:



			Why do I not get directly involved myself, because the committee meetings are at times that do not suit someone who does not get home from work until 7.00 at night most days. If that were not the case and I could actually get to meetings then I would more than happily be involved.
		
Click to expand...


Surely they will only have a meeting once a month though


----------



## Snelly (Sep 5, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Hope it's not _*that*_ posh Snelly, I am playing there on Sunday



Click to expand...

It is a special occasion place.  Yes it is posh and there are a few more rules than other courses may have but that aside, it is absolutely superb.  You could not wish for a better day of golf and I hope you get good weather. 

You will fit in perfectly mate.


----------



## Snelly (Sep 5, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Its a genusine question. Most clubs dont have a joining fee and yours like, D4Ss will go at some point. It will still be the same club I guess, but some of you seem to think that clubs with joining fees are somehow of a better standing than those without.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think a joining fee will disappear from the most prestigious clubs in the UK any time soon. They charge a premium because they are premium venues. Logically, in most cases, this means they are much better than courses without a joining fee. 

It is pointless to debate this with you though, that much is clear.   Your stance (and others) can be pared down to - I want to be a member at wherever I want with no strings attached and at low cost.   Any possible barrier to this is then loosely termed as elitist, snobby or bad for the game.  But what you really mean is that it is bad for individuals who cannot have exactly what they want, entirely on their terms. 

A stupid perspective as frankly, life is just not like that.


----------



## JCW (Sep 5, 2016)

fundy said:



			people stay at parkstone because its a cracking course, not because they paid a joining fee though surely?
		
Click to expand...


Yes the course is in great nick , best condition course in the county , Broadstone is the best track but in not so good condition currently , problems with the greens , anytime you in the area and want to play parkstone drop me a line ...............EYG


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So basically the better courses charge the most and have a joining fee

You want to be able to be a member of such clubs but can't justify spending that much money because you don't play enough so you want them to change their membership so that you can pay a smaller fee ? 

Why should a club do that when they have people willing to pay what is needed to join ? 

It seems you want to be affordable for you ? - well I'm sure there will be clubs that you can play at but its seem you want the best but not willing to pay the going rate
		
Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa there.
I never said I want to join a top club.
What I'm saying is that if we ONLY have the option of goat track or Â£1k+ fee + similar subscription there will be fewer golfers in the long run.
If ALL clubs have a joining fee, which is what you are advocating, then fewer younger players will take the game up seriously.
Which eventually will cause a decline across the whole industry.
You said earlier that golf is an expensive game so only those that can afford it should join clubs - the rest are relegated to pay and play.
All I'm saying is a lot of people paying a smaller amount and using the course less can also be a way of creating income and bringing new people into the club.
You want the game to be elitist. I say that while there will always be an elite, it should only be one permutation, and the game should be more inclusive.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Whoa whoa whoa there.
I never said I want to join a top club.
What I'm saying is that if we ONLY have the option of goat track or Â£1k+ fee + similar subscription there will be fewer golfers in the long run.
If ALL clubs have a joining fee, which is what you are advocating, then fewer younger players will take the game up seriously.
Which eventually will cause a decline across the whole industry.
You said earlier that golf is an expensive game so only those that can afford it should join clubs - the rest are relegated to pay and play.
All I'm saying is a lot of people paying a smaller amount and using the course less can also be a way of creating income and bringing new people into the club.
You want the game to be elitist. I say that while there will always be an elite, it should only be one permutation, and the game should be more inclusive.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I don't think I have ever suggested that all clubs should have a joining fee ?!

I also never said that only those that can afford should join clubs ?!

I also have never said I want the game to be elitist ?! 

I did say that there were plenty of options for pay and play for people that can't justify the cost of membership to a golf club


----------



## DCB (Sep 5, 2016)

Come on gents, let's read carefully before blowing off steam if you disagree with what someone else has posted. Let's  keep it civil and on track please.


----------



## GB72 (Sep 5, 2016)

For me it is not about getting something for nothing, far from it. My views I guess comes from personal experience, paying my fees and things not being as expected. 
If I had joined a club, paid a joining fee and a bar levy and everything was fine then there would be no issued. Ironically, there would also be no need for a bar levy and joining fee to keep me a member as I would be happy to stay and more than happy to use the bar. 
When you join a club and the membership experience is not what you were led to believe then it is easy to feel hard done by, to feel tied in and to rally against the joining fee. That is nobodyâ€™s fault necessarily, simply the fact that expectations do not match but one party feels tied in to staying whilst the other sits pretty with your money. I am sure that others would feel the same if, lets say, the quality of course maintenance went sharply down hill after year one. 
The other issue, as used to be the case near me, is when even the most mediocre courses were charging a joining fee. On that basis it is clearly a hurdle to some getting in to golf if there is a large, up front cost before you get to play (bear in mind that there are no municipal courses that near where I live). That is probably the clearest answer that I can give to the original question, yes they are a hurdle to people taking up the game where there is no obvious alternative. 
Now, as for them being elitist, I can see in my area how that reputation would come about. I do not live in a wealthy area and much of Grantham is actually pretty poor. That meant that the joining fee charged by my club at the time would have represented a social divide between the haves and have nots in the town so far as golf was concerned. To this day members of other clubs around the town have come to see my club as representing everything that they see bad about the game. Now whether that is true is up for debate and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 
That is about as close as I can get to my feelings about joining fees.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

drive4show said:



			OK, you mentioned earlier about simple analogies, here is one for you.........

2 private clubs in your area, neither has a joining fee and both have 500 members each paying Â£1000 a year. Club A has an issue of some description, lets say disease in the greens. The members get cheesed off and at the end of the year half of them decide to leave and join club B which is in much better condition. So now you have 250 members at club A and 750 members at club B. Club A needs lots of money to remedy the issue with the greens but doesn't have it as their income has been reduced by 50% and now club B is flourishing and getting better because their income has increased massively. So club A is now on a downward spiral and getting worse, more people want to leave and join club B but they are now full and have a waiting list. Club A could ultimately go bust and close leaving the remaining members with nowhere to play.

So is this making golf inclusive to all?

This analogy is extremely simplistic but if both clubs had joining fees the chances are few(er) people would have left club A in the first place and they would have been able to resolve the issues and get back on track, people would have had a choice where to play. 

I have paid 2 joining fees in my time and I believe they are a protective mechanism to help clubs survive.
		
Click to expand...

A reasonable argument well put..
I just happen to disagree with it to a point.
Once the cheesed off members start to leave there will still be a commitment to the rest of the years subs. 
This is when the club positively markets itself with its flexible memberships.
You also give ownership of the problem to the members and local community and use the pr / social media etc to show the improvement as it comes.
Then you reward the loyal members.

Obviously you scenario works if there are only 1000 golfers to play with. But if there is potential for more flexible members then you could end up with both clubs benefitting in the long run.
Let me repeat. I'm not anti joining fees. I just think only the top niche should use them and the average clubs should be looking for ways to increase the golfing fraternity for long term benefit. 
I think if too many average clubs have joining fees, membership will decline over the next generation or so.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I am not sure you are quite the right fit for the West Sussex either.
		
Click to expand...

That's very rude.

You don't know if I openly fart in public, or sneak one out and blame the dog.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I don't think I have ever suggested that all clubs should have a joining fee ?!

I also never said that only those that can afford should join clubs ?!

I also have never said I want the game to be elitist ?! 

I did say that there were plenty of options for pay and play for people that can't justify the cost of membership to a golf club
		
Click to expand...

Good, we agree then &#128512;
When I'm good enough you can invite me round and I'll get the beers....

The only thing is you might have given up the game by the time I'm good enough. 
&#128077;


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

DCB said:



			Come on gents, let's read carefully before blowing off steam if you disagree with what someone else has posted. Let's  keep it civil and on track please.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there's been any lack of civility here, just basic disaagreements on the way forward.

If we fully defined our terms so there was no chance of misinterpretation each post would be 2 pages long.

This way is much more fun

&#128526;


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2016)

A thought - the new member joining fee is that new member's contribution towards keeping the fees of existing members subs down and minimising the need for a 'new development' levy - in consideration of the fact that it is existing and previous members subscriptions that have funded getting the course and club into it's current condition and the standing that it has - that making it worth joining.  Just a thought.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

Another thought.
How many members does an average club have?
And how many new members each year contribute their joining fee?
Assuming the fee is the same as one years subs.
Say a club has 200 members.
And 2 new members join each year.
That is the same contribution as each member's subs going up by 1%
What are the realistic numbers and at what level of new joiners does it become an effective source of revenue?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Another thought.
How many members does an average club have?
And how many new members each year contribute their joining fee?
Assuming the fee is the same as one years subs.
Say a club has 200 members.
And 2 new members join each year.
That is the same contribution as each member's subs going up by 1%
What are the realistic numbers and at what level of new joiners does it become an effective source of revenue?
		
Click to expand...

I think churn and bringing numbers up to the optimum number has resulted in about 50 new members this year at our place.  As it happens we don't currently have a joining fee.  Not many clubs have a membership of 200 and 2 new members a year.


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think churn and bringing numbers up to the optimum number has resulted in about 50 new members this year at our place.  As it happens we don't currently have a joining fee.  Not many clubs have a membership of 200 and 2 new members a year.
		
Click to expand...

I genuinely have no idea how many new member sign up on average.
But if it's enough to make a significant dent in the club's revenue then it can't be all bad.
But if it's only saving a couple of % of existing members subs then I'd suggest it's not fit for purpose.


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			I don't think a joining fee will disappear from the most prestigious clubs in the UK any time soon. They charge a premium because they are premium venues. Logically, in most cases, this means they are much better than courses without a joining fee. 

It is pointless to debate this with you though, that much is clear.   Your stance (and others) can be pared down to - I want to be a member at wherever I want with no strings attached and at low cost.   Any possible barrier to this is then loosely termed as elitist, snobby or bad for the game.  But what you really mean is that it is bad for individuals who cannot have exactly what they want, entirely on their terms. 

A stupid perspective as frankly, life is just not like that.
		
Click to expand...


Golf is far from low cost and if a club wants to charge a joining fee then thats fine . It will however put off a lot of people which is why so many private courses in the UK have ditched them.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 5, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			like all things its supply and demand, if there is a demand people will pay it.

Â£200 in the bar is nothing tbh, if you are using the club properly.

Royal Dornoch has a waiting list, Joining fee  and you have to be a member of the Struie Course (2nd course) for 2 years, plenty will do that because of the Quality of the course.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. If you are in there say 25-30 weekends per year, get a few rounds in and the odd bite to eat it'll soon go


----------



## hovis (Sep 5, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. If you are in there say 25-30 weekends per year, get a few rounds in and the odd bite to eat it'll soon go
		
Click to expand...

I'd still like to make that choice for myself rather than be told "i will" spend Â£200 in the bar


----------



## richart (Sep 5, 2016)

Snelly said:



			It is a special occasion place.  Yes it is posh and there are a few more rules than other courses may have but that aside, it is absolutely superb.  You could not wish for a better day of golf and I hope you get good weather. 

You will fit in perfectly mate. 

Click to expand...

 He didn't mention who he is playing with Dave.

Really looking forward to the game. There are worse places to spend a Sunday with a mate.


----------



## fundy (Sep 5, 2016)

JCW said:



			Yes the course is in great nick , best condition course in the county , Broadstone is the best track but in not so good condition currently , problems with the greens , anytime you in the area and want to play parkstone drop me a line ...............EYG
		
Click to expand...

thanks JCW, we're planning on heading south in the next year or two so will definitely take you up on it at some point (it will definitely be a warmer day than at Tadmarton Heath forum meet though!!!)


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 6, 2016)

hovis said:



			I'd still like to make that choice for myself rather than be told "i will" spend Â£200 in the bar
		
Click to expand...

We have Â£60.00 added to our subscriptions as a bar levy. I don't even give it a second thought. Okay I'll agree, Â£200.00 is a bit excessive, and yes, I would most probably "gulp" at that, but if the course was worth playing I'd accept it as a necessary evil.
When I was at Crowborough Beacon during the 80's and 90's, the course was most probably at it's best. But the bar was empty. You could walk in there at anytime during the day and there would be maybe two or three people sat in there at most. They introduced a bar levy eventually, to try to generate some income. A lot of the members created a stink about it.  
The alternative was to close it down. The uproar that would have created doesn't bear thinking about. And most of the noise would have come from the membership who never used it.
You can't win.


----------



## chrisd (Sep 6, 2016)

In many clubs the bar levy has taken the place of the joining fee, the only difference is that everyone in the club ends up paying annually where as only the new members would have paid the joining fee. 

The beauty of the bar levy us that all the members get something tangible for their outlay, the club maintains its income which will be budgeted for (along with spending of the money) so the only losers are the members who never step inside the clubhouse after their round! I personally feel it's a fair system as I rarely go straight home after a round and the Â£60 on my bar tab is insignificant over a year. You be suprised though at how many bar levies are taken back by the club of people who never use them in any given year


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Sep 6, 2016)

hovis said:



			I'd still like to make that choice for myself rather than be told "i will" spend Â£200 in the bar
		
Click to expand...

But again it still comes down to the T&C's of the club you are joining in the same way as the joining fee and if you have issues being "told" to put Â£200 on the bar card then don't join. It's not like the bar levy or fees are a secret and you know upfront that they need paying if you want to be a member


----------



## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Sep 6, 2016)

chrisd said:



			In many clubs the bar levy has taken the place of the joining fee, the only difference is that everyone in the club ends up paying annually where as only the new members would have paid the joining fee. 

The beauty of the bar levy us that all the members get something tangible for their outlay, the club maintains its income which will be budgeted for (along with spending of the money) so the only losers are the members who never step inside the clubhouse after their round! I personally feel it's a fair system as I rarely go straight home after a round and the Â£60 on my bar tab is insignificant over a year. You be suprised though at how many bar levies are taken back by the club of people who never use them in any given year
		
Click to expand...

I thought the bar levy was brought in at clubs where the bar/restaurant manager earns his/ her money from taking, so it gives them a guaranteed income.
IE the money is kept away from subs and other fees and specifically goes to one person.


----------



## Slab (Sep 6, 2016)

Does anyone actually know (categorically) the _original _purpose of a joining fee? (not what its purpose is stated as nowadays) Or did it vary from club to club

Was it related to a system of vetting
An encouragement (or enforcement) of loyalty & churn prevention 
A financial top up to keep existing members subs down 
Something else...

?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I thought the bar levy was brought in at clubs where the bar/restaurant manager earns his/ her money from taking, so it gives them a guaranteed income.
IE the money is kept away from subs and other fees and specifically goes to one person.
		
Click to expand...

Bar Levys were introduced to encourage people to spend time in the club after their round 

At a lot of clubs people just disappeared afterwards and clubs suffered with the lack of people socialising afterwards

We may increase ours from Â£50 to Â£100 as it will include food soon 

Believe it helps people integrate into the club 

At the end of the year we prob have a good couple thousand that isn't spent from bar cards 

Mine is normally gone with 2/3 weeks


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Bar Levys were introduced to encourage people to spend time in the club after their round 

At a lot of clubs people just disappeared afterwards and clubs suffered with the lack of people socialising afterwards

We may increase ours from Â£50 to Â£100 as it will include food soon 

Believe it helps people integrate into the club 

At the end of the year we prob have a good couple thousand that isn't spent from bar cards 

Mine is normally gone with 2/3 weeks
		
Click to expand...

just another way to discourage new members


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			just another way to discourage new members
		
Click to expand...

We have a waiting list of over 40 new on top of a full membership 

It seems it's not discouraging anyone


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a waiting list of over 40 new on top of a full membership 

It seems it's not discouraging anyone
		
Click to expand...

Waiting for what?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Waiting for what?
		
Click to expand...

What do you think they are waiting for ? 

To join the club perhaps


----------



## guest100718 (Sep 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you think they are waiting for ? 

To join the club perhaps
		
Click to expand...

I doubt there is a waiting list.


----------



## Smiffy (Sep 6, 2016)

Don't feed the troll


----------



## bobmac (Sep 6, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			Don't feed the troll
		
Click to expand...


:rofl:I was just thinking that


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			I doubt there is a waiting list.
		
Click to expand...

Doubt all you want paddy but right now with have 44 on the list - 28 of them have paid a down payment of Â£200 which will come of their first years subscriptions and been given vouchers to play 

All of them are looking to join as full members including joining fee 

I know that sort information sort of blows your theory out of the window about it discouraging people but test it out for yourself and ask for an application form


----------



## hovis (Sep 6, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doubt all you want paddy but right now with have 44 on the list - 28 of them have paid a down payment of Â£200 which will come of their first years subscriptions and been given vouchers to play 

All of them are looking to join as full members including joining fee 

I know that sort information sort of blows your theory out of the window about it discouraging people but test it out for yourself and ask for an application form
		
Click to expand...

I'm going tomorrow paddy. Shall i ask?


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Sep 6, 2016)

Going back to my college days, there is an economic principal called the "law of Diminishing Marginal Utility"

without going into too much cranial detail, A Joining fee is basically there to stop people queueing.

Let me explain...

We all want "the Best", in an ideal world, we would all be able to be members of Swinley Forest, but reality is not like that

The golf clubs we choose to join will be chosen from a variety of criteria from Location, quality of course, Financials etc and there will be a definite pecking order, with many of us having to choose a "lower" club compared to our first choice money no object club.

Clubs at the top of the pecking order will be there for a reason, they will be popular and they will have a cap on the number of members they can cope with. In this instance a joining fee is entirely appropriate as it forms a barrier to joining and therefore reduces "queueing" on the waiting list. whilst increasing income without making the place overcrowded.

For those clubs further down the pecking order without a waiting list and a declining membership, a joining fee is entirely inappropriate. they are fighting for survival and want as many bodies through the gates as possible.

Then you have those clubs in the middle, maybe decent courses, but lacking that bit of investment, a bit old school with an ageing membership who hark after those halcyon days, clubs who think they are better than they actually are, clubs who are ticking over for the moment, but in 10/15 years when all the old members have either passed on or retired from the game will be up queer street sans paddle big time. The sort of club where the midweek seniors swindle is more popular than playing at the weekend

Its these clubs that worry me, they often still have joining fees which discourage more people from joining, they need to attract younger golfers and also those in the 30-45 age group as they are the immediate future committee members etc.


----------



## duncan mackie (Sep 6, 2016)

Slab said:



			Does anyone actually know (categorically) the _original _purpose of a joining fee? (not what its purpose is stated as nowadays) Or did it vary from club to club

Was it related to a system of vetting
An encouragement (or enforcement) of loyalty & churn prevention 
A financial top up to keep existing members subs down 
Something else...

?
		
Click to expand...

Originionally the club owned it's premises and owned, or leased, the land.

There was therefore a value attached to membership - this wasn't limited to golf clubs.

Joining fees represented a way for new members to buy into the existing equity.

As most such institutions have become Ltd companies now such equity no longer exists - but there are the odd exceptions.

Generally speaking most of the various financial aspects of membership discussed in the thread had a solid basis when introduced originally - but have subsequently been added to the arsenal of charges available by those responsible for the financial proprietary of each club eg bar levies were introduced to guarantee a turnover level to maintain a particular level of staffing to provide catering and were seen as both more equitable, and a zero cost for many most members, than simply increasing the membership fees. Differential members catering prices followed, then subsequently found themselves in clubs that don't have bar levies! (Whilst logical for catering establishments that have golf they make no sense in golf clubs)

Add in the proliferation of membership pricing plans and the whole thing has become inherently unstable IMO. The actions of club A having a significant impact on B such that they instinctively react with offer C without any real comprehension of the medium term impact. Over the last 2 decades clubs have lost control of income and increasingly manage their financials through next year's spending budgets (which is why so many courses go through cycles in their condition).


----------



## DRW (Sep 6, 2016)

Our club has membership cards, that you put money onto(no levy) and then you spend in the bar/shop/range and obtain IIRC 10% discount compared to if you don't put money on it. And they do a finest portion of chips we have found in Shrewsbury :thup:

Its great, as it means we can give Adam(son) the card when he is up there and he can buy stuff without carrying money etc as such or wondering if we have given him enough. We use the facilities etc ourselves etc.

I used to be in Essex, one of those golfers that used to play and go home, probably 90% of the time. Didn't wish to play in comps or socialised really(as my life was working 110 hours a week, so had no time and I am not a social person really, so why should someone be forced to, effectively I didn't wish to belong to a club but I wished to play golf ). 

Thankfully in todays world there are different clubs for different folks, which once there almost was not.


----------



## duncan mackie (Sep 6, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			... but in 10/15 years when all the old members have either passed on or retired from the game will be up queer street sans paddle big time. The sort of club where the midweek seniors swindle is more popular than playing at the weekend

Its these clubs that worry me, they often still have joining fees which discourage more people from joining, they need to attract younger golfers and also those in the 30-45 age group as they are the immediate future committee members etc.
		
Click to expand...

I struggle with this, constantly referenced, argument because for the next couple of decades we will continue to increase the volume of active seniors available through increased health, longevity and various financial aspects already in play. ie for every passing senior there will be more potential replacements. 

The real issue is purely and simply the number of 7 day members (weekend payers and players).

The increased number of nomads can realistically be expected to fuel senior membership in the near future, but are increasingly unlikely to take on 7 day membership as weekend access continues to open up at many venues outside of the treasured morning slots.

Where the whole model is threatened is in the rise of alternatives (time to mention cycling?) and the lack of introductory pressure. Whilst many ranges, and some clubs, do their best to make it cheap and easy to introduce youngsters to the game it's not enough - worldwide it's increasing but in the UK it's going backwards fast from everything I see.


----------



## BrianM (Sep 6, 2016)

The local course here has a Â£425 joining fee, one off payment then Â£489 a year, that seems pretty decent to me, there is a 16 months waiting list at the moment as well.
If you want to play a better course you've got to expect to pay a bit extra in my opinion.


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 6, 2016)

BrianM said:



			The local course here has a Â£425 joining fee, one off payment then Â£489 a year, that seems pretty decent to me, there is a 16 months waiting list at the moment as well.
If you want to play a better course you've got to expect to pay a bit extra in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Is that Inverness?

If so that waiting list is well down, was 7 years when i first joined.


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 6, 2016)

duncan mackie said:



			I struggle with this, constantly referenced, argument because for the next couple of decades we will continue to increase the volume of active seniors available through increased health, longevity and various financial aspects already in play. ie for every passing senior there will be more potential replacements. 

The real issue is purely and simply the number of 7 day members (weekend payers and players).

The increased number of nomads can realistically be expected to fuel senior membership in the near future, but are increasingly unlikely to take on 7 day membership as weekend access continues to open up at many venues outside of the treasured morning slots.

Where the whole model is threatened is in the rise of alternatives (time to mention cycling?) and the lack of introductory pressure. Whilst many ranges, and some clubs, do their best to make it cheap and easy to introduce youngsters to the game it's not enough - worldwide it's increasing but in the UK it's going backwards fast from everything I see.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you there. Clubs are all scampering for younger members when we have an aging population.

I think clubs should be doing more to get older people involved. After all we have more time and on the whole can afford to play.


----------



## Paperboy (Sep 6, 2016)

chrisd said:



			You be suprised though at how many bar levies are taken back by the club of people who never use them in any given year
		
Click to expand...

Chris at Xmas you see all the people who don't use the bar come and buy Â£80 worth of wine to take home with them!!
At least at my club you do


----------



## BrianM (Sep 6, 2016)

It certainly is Patrick, seems pretty reasonable fees.


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 6, 2016)

BrianM said:



			It certainly is Patrick, seems pretty reasonable fees.
		
Click to expand...

I think they must have dropped the joining fee as well, I've a funny feeling i paid more than that.

Was a bit of a waste, only stayed a member for a year. Where i like took me ages to get though town and it was always packed with 4 balls who wouldn't let you through.


----------



## BrianM (Sep 6, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			I think they must have dropped the joining fee as well, I've a funny feeling i paid more than that.

Was a bit of a waste, only stayed a member for a year. Where i like took me ages to get though town and it was always packed with 4 balls who wouldn't let you through.
		
Click to expand...

It used to be a Â£1000 so has come down recently.
Only the choice of 2 in town and I think Inverness is kept in better condition.
Did ask to see if they would do a discount for offshore workers but Inverness and Torvean said they don't.


----------



## patricks148 (Sep 6, 2016)

BrianM said:



			It used to be a Â£1000 so has come down recently.
Only the choice of 2 in town and I think Inverness is kept in better condition.
Did ask to see if they would do a discount for offshore workers but Inverness and Torvean said they don't.
		
Click to expand...

Only problem with both these is they are very wet in winter Inverness Esp, what with a Burn running though the low part of the course. was still wet when i last played it in June. Torvean is Ok and not that far behind Inverness TBH.

I would look at Fortrose, they were doing a good offer a couple of months ago and you get 12 months golf, though it is busy mornings, but afternoon its pretty quite, was thinking about it myself. 

Nairn is always worth considering, but they still have a waiting list and Joining fee. takes me 20 mins door to door and i'm the back of Eden Court


----------



## BrianM (Sep 6, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			Only problem with both these is they are very wet in winter Inverness Esp, what with a Burn running though the low part of the course. was still wet when i last played it in June. Torvean is Ok and not that far behind Inverness TBH.

I would look at Fortrose, they were doing a good offer a couple of months ago and you get 12 months golf, though it is busy mornings, but afternoon its pretty quite, was thinking about it myself. 

Nairn is always worth considering, but they still have a waiting list and Joining fee. takes me 20 mins door to door and i'm the back of Eden Court
		
Click to expand...

My Dad is a member of Fortrose because like you say the Inverness courses aren't great in the winter.


----------



## Liverbirdie (Sep 6, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Waiting for what?
		
Click to expand...

Godot, to join?


----------



## JCW (Sep 6, 2016)

fundy said:



			thanks JCW, we're planning on heading south in the next year or two so will definitely take you up on it at some point (it will definitely be a warmer day than at Tadmarton Heath forum meet though!!!)
		
Click to expand...

Not played in many days as cold as that day ..................EYG


----------

