# Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate



## Monty_Brown (Nov 29, 2011)

I confess to knowing very little about S&T, but I am very interested in all golf technique, so am quite prepared to listen to views and be convinced that it is great, not, or somewhere in between.

I would love to hear views from people that have:

- tried it, benefited and stuck with it
- tried it and given up on it
- never tried it for specific reasons. 

I'm considering buying the Bennett & Plummer book, not necessarily to adopt the technique, but purely because I'm a swing geek.


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## USER1999 (Nov 29, 2011)

The book is very good, and has helped me understand a lot about the faults in my swing. I have not gone 100% down the S&T route, but have incorporated various bits into my own swing. To me, the bad shots with a full on S&T swing were too punitive (massive pull hooks). It is well worth looking at though.

What it gave me was a draw (after years of fading), and a better ball strike. These I have tried to retain. That said, sometimes the draw was silly, and I needed the whole course to keep it in bounds.

If there was somewhere where I could get lessons, at a sensible price, and sensible travel, I would possibly make the jump. 

I am thinking about having some conventional lessons instead, and seeing what that has to offer. I have never really had any lessons, so I am interested.


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## evahakool (Nov 29, 2011)

Very much my experience to Murph.after some advice from Justone got the Bennet and Plummer book and tried it. What I found was it was easy to pick up and had better shots with s/w to 5i, for me it does feel a much simpliar and better swing.

 I could'nt master any woods with this swing,but I would admit I never tried to long with the woods,so I to have incorparated some of the S/T swing and am quite happy with it.


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## JustOne (Nov 29, 2011)

Heated debate? No thanks, it'll turn into it's usual one-sided slanging match from people that don't know their ass from their elbow.


FWIW The book is very cheap (about Â£12) and well worth the read.


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## One Planer (Nov 29, 2011)

Tried it when I first took up the game, moved away from it over the last year or so, going back to it over the winter and onwards.

First try was a little half-hearted, but I've brought the book and I'm going to give it a bash.


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## chris661 (Nov 29, 2011)

I was having great difficulty a few years ago and on the verge of jacking it all in, went for a final lesson and the pro got me onto this which resulted in REALLY good iron play. The only downside (for me) was that with playing links golf the ball started to go further back in my stance and I was really bracing and loading my left side to keep it low which was causing me all sorts of problems. Went to a new pro and he incorporates some aspects of it but it is a more "classical" swing which, as my understanding gets better, suits me. I do find myself heading back to some of the original things I was taught especially if I am struggling on a given day.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2011)

James spent an hour with me going through it all and explaining why it works. I have to say it makes perfect sense. I did dabble for a while (2009) and had some good results but suddenly got a dose of the s***ks and stopped. Would be tempted to have another go but would need to read the book first I think. Definitely shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.


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## connor (Nov 29, 2011)

I've never heard of it??? What is it


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## chrisd (Nov 29, 2011)

JustOne said:



			FWIW The book is very cheap (about Â£12) and well worth the read.
		
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Downloaded it on my Kindle and now all the writing gets stuck on the left hand side!



Chris


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## Mattyboy (Nov 29, 2011)

connor said:



			I've never heard of it??? What is it
		
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Put simply, you load your weight onto your front side and keep it there. OK theres a bit more to it than that but thats the basics. I read the book just recently. Makes perfect sense to me but for the moment I am just working on being centered and not swaying away from the ball.


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Downloaded it on my Kindle and now all the writing gets stuck on the left hand side!
		
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Quality!!

Gleaning what I can from what I've read I can see benefits but I wouldn't want to do anything to my swing at the moment.
I don't know what you'd describe it as but it damn well works for me!


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## Mattyboy (Nov 29, 2011)

chrisd said:



			Downloaded it on my Kindle and now all the writing gets stuck on the left hand side!



Chris
		
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If thats  problem get a left handed Kindle next time!


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## DaveM (Nov 29, 2011)

Have not tried it happy with what I have. But I have read the book and it does make good reading. I can see the point of it. But as I said dont want to mess about with what I have. Took to much hard work to get here, to change.


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2011)

Mattyboy said:



			Makes perfect sense to me but for the moment I am just working on being centered and not swaying away from the ball.
		
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It's pretty common to do that, in fact it's also pretty radical to do that. All 'conventional' teaching would have you load up your right side. Consider yourself a rebel!


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 30, 2011)

Chaps, thanks for your thoughts and input. Having spent most of my lessons this year trying to get my weight OFF my left side, I have now developed far too much weight shift to the right side. Seems like I was nearly at S&T 6 months ago... 

Book ordered... I'll be interested to see if it's helpful.


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			Having spent most of my lessons this year trying to get my weight OFF my left side.
		
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Can I ask WHY? I assume you are just trying stuff as you go along and don't have any real guidance other than what you think 'fits' with your swing?


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## CMAC (Nov 30, 2011)

load up my left side too early and too long and get some serious faults, maybe its the domino effect.

It's a good theory but theres a reason its been done the other way very successfully for a long long time.


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 30, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Can I ask WHY? I assume you are just trying stuff as you go along and don't have any real guidance other than what you think 'fits' with your swing?
		
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I was basically stuck on the left side but within the confines of a more old school Leadbetter-ish swing. When it came to the downswing I had nowhere to go and so was straightening, bailing, whatever I could to clear the hips and get back to the ball.

Earlier this year, after no lessons for a good few years, I worked with my pro on getting more weight transition onto the right side in the backswing, as "conventional" theory would suggest. It worked nicely for a few months. But the effect of this was too much lateral movement as a result of the exaggerated weight shift drill I was doing. Come the winter, it's fat shots galore and ball-striking has gone to pot. 

S&T makes particularly strong claims about consistency of ball striking, which really interests me. I felt that given my tendency to leave weight on the left side, looking at a technique that takes that trait and makes a virtue of it might be useful.

I wouldn't class my previous lessons or interest in S&T as trying stuff as I go along. I've played to single figures for 20 years, but am just one of those people who likes to tinker with technique - I enjoy it!


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			But the effect of this was too much lateral movement as a result of the exaggerated weight shift drill I was doing. Come the winter, it's fat shots galore and ball-striking has gone to pot.
		
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I don't think it's possible to have too much lateral movement forward... only too much on the way back 

I certainly know that (Winter) feeling of snatching the club away too fast, losing balance, getting stuck on the back foot.... and creating slappy divots that start 6" behind the ball 

People exaggerate what they read and what they don't know they simply make up. If you believe every uninformed person you'd think that S&T is practically standing on one leg, falling over towards the target with the ball so far off your back foot you'd be digging trenches on the way down.....

[video=youtube;05zoiVCmRaw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zoiVCmRaw[/video]

There's a happy medium to find between distance and control in golf, sure you might want to swing out of your shoes on every shot, but bear in mind that they don't go that far generally when they're fatted


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 30, 2011)

JustOne said:



			I don't think it's possible to have too much lateral movement forward... only too much on the way back 

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That's what I meant, sorry! Think we were talking at cross purposes. Too much lateral on the BACKSWING! It meant throwing everything at it to get the club back to the ball.

Looking forward to getting stuck into some S&T.

BTW, there's a guy at my club who *does* only have one leg... plays to to 9. Amazing to see him play, he hits it miles. He's a phenomenal athlete.


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## Monty_Brown (Nov 30, 2011)

I meant to ask, do you lose distance with S&T compared to a conventional weight shift swing? Not an issue, i'm just curious as the weight shift has always been sold to me as a way of adding power.


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2011)

I've never witnessed anyone hit it less far with S&T, the opposite would be more true. The weight shift is still there with S&T... it just doesn't require a 'run up'


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## ADB (Nov 30, 2011)

Judging by your drive on the 18th @ Blackmoor J - there is no loss of length!


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## Doh (Nov 30, 2011)

I have the book and the DVD's and like Murph i have incorperated some of the patterns and would love to have a lesson from a S&T teacher. There is lots of information on the Sand Trap Forum if the mods dont mind me telling you about another forum.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 30, 2011)

In David Leadbetters book on 'The Fundamentals of Hogan' he describes his reverse pivot and how he hung on his left side.  Is this S&T by another name?


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## JustOne (Nov 30, 2011)

lobthewedge said:



			In David Leadbetters book on 'The Fundamentals of Hogan' he describes his reverse pivot and how he hung on his left side. Is this S&T by another name?
		
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You can't reverse pivot if your weight is going FORWARD.


FWIW If Hogan reverse pivotted then good for him... he did alright apparently.


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## Mattyboy (Nov 30, 2011)

JustOne said:



			It's pretty common to do that, in fact it's also pretty radical to do that. All 'conventional' teaching would have you load up your right side. Consider yourself a rebel! 

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For me its just too easy to sway back - then I hit the ball everywhere (surprise surprise!). It also helps getting back to the ball without a slide (as you do not have to shift your weight to get back to the ball).

Seems to fix my problems, but its very much work in progress..........


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## Doh (Nov 30, 2011)

Have a look at this www.youtube.com/user/dazhwood


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## wull (Nov 30, 2011)

i have never tried it and unless my game takes a turn for the worst i won't be either.my friend has introduced it into his game and is practising it over the upcoming winter months...good luck to him and if it works then great.

if it works then it's the same as everything else.....well done but if not then there's other fundamentals you can incorporate into your game and work on them instead.each to their own as they say!!!


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## big_russ (Nov 30, 2011)

Doh said:



			Have a look at this www.youtube.com/user/dazhwood

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This is my club pro and coach and he is only one of a handful of registered S&T instructors in this country. He is a top bloke and a great coach and knows his stuff.

Its all well and good buying the book and trying to self teach but you need a good coach behind you ensuring you are putting yourself in the correct positions as it can be very easy to over do things and then loose faith in what you are doing.


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## CMAC (Nov 30, 2011)

I've just watched the first 2 blogs and the stance/set up and backswing are the way I swing but have been told they are faults, maybe theres something in this for me as the takeaway in S&T is certainly far more natural to do than the way I've been taught for years, time to do some more research


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## SGC001 (Dec 1, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			I meant to ask, do you lose distance with S&T compared to a conventional weight shift swing? Not an issue, i'm just curious as the weight shift has always been sold to me as a way of adding power.
		
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According to Jorgensen the weight shift contributes just under 9% of clubhead speed at impact.

I see from the link to the pro that he's a stack and tilt guy (and it had to come down and then got put back up again with what reads like approval) and it's not easy to find too much info about it. For those who use stack and tilt does that some up the main points pretty accurately?


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## JustOne (Dec 1, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			For those who use stack and tilt does that some up the main points pretty accurately?
		
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Yes... however there's a lot to take in if you want to understand what is being said rather than just listen. I think the videos make the swing seem more complicated/radical than it really is as it is having to try to explain the principles and concepts (the whats and whys).

does this guys swing really look that radical? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zoiVCmRaw is he standing on one leg and folding his body in half whilst twisting himself out of his shoes?

The BASIC NO1 concept of golf is to hit the ball properly, doing moves that make it harder to hit the ball properly clearly makes the game more difficult.

In this video (at approx 6mins) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jr1hUhILyM&feature=channel_video_title he talks about swinging 'up and down the line' and you can clearly see how players need to drop the club backwards to approach the ball from the inside.... this move alone is going to lead to hitting the ground too far behind the ball (fat and thin shots). Flat shoulders and high hands put the player in an awkward position that 99% of all golfers have trouble recovering from (hence only a few people ever master the technique) combine that with then getting the weight from the back foot onto the front and 'releasing' the club on the way down and you've got a recipe for inconsistent striking. Once you accept that it's better to put yourself in a GOOD position to hit the ball then you have to accept that stack and tilt is not only a viable swing pattern but also common sense.

Following the video is certainly (in my opinion) something that every golfer should look into, the pros have, and several are now cropping up who teach the swing. Of course those GM forumites that have already mastered the game in it's more difficult form and know better than anyone else need not apply.... and best of luck on the Tour


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## Mattyboy (Dec 1, 2011)

A question for you JustOne: Why is it that the S&T follow through appears curtailed?

Thanks

Matt


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## SGC001 (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks for the reply, it's the what's and why's I'm interested in; I was curious how the stack and tilit system worked. I'm not interested in a heated debate on it, just trying to understand it.

I can't watch the videos untl later, I've seen the 5 blogs posted and am fairly certain that the 2nd link would to be one of those blogs or certainly could have been considering the content.


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## Robobum (Dec 1, 2011)

SGC001 said:



			...... I'm not interested in a heated debate on it.......
		
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I think Justone is having the debate with himself and presenting both sides of any argument....


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## JustOne (Dec 1, 2011)

Robobum said:



			I think Justone is having the debate with himself and presenting both sides of any argument....
		
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It's certainly a time saver....


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## PieMan (Dec 1, 2011)

My 3 year old son has perfected stack and tilt with his building blocks.


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## JustOne (Dec 1, 2011)

PieMan said:



			My 3 year old son has perfected stack and tilt with my old pizza boxes.
		
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Fixed that for you!


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## JustOne (Dec 1, 2011)

Mattyboy said:



			A question for you JustOne: Why is it that the S&T follow through appears curtailed?
		
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That's a good question.

In 'basic terms' the arms swing down the line for longer (fully extending and releasing) thereby pulling the arms away from the chest (away and up) thus allowing you to slow down and control the throughswing better, without twisting your spine or needing to strangle yourself with the shaft.

The 'more involved' answer would involve directional forces and parametric acceleration


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## PieMan (Dec 1, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Fixed that for you! 

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You left out kebab boxes!


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2011)

Doh said:



			Have a look at this www.youtube.com/user/dazhwood

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Cheers mate just had a look at you tube and watched the first couple of vids. I do not understand the swing completely as I have not really read anything about it. But looking at the basics it looks very similar to what I do anyway. I am not saying I have this complete T&S swing but the ball and hand position is the same. I also have the extra weight on my left side and keep more weight there through the swing than you normally would. People have always said how well I hit my irons and also the distance I hit them (smooth 9-iron=155 yards). Without looking into it more I would say you do not sacrifice distance. If anything you will gain distance if you are hitting your irons sweeter. Be interesting to hear from anyone who has incorporated this swing and how they are getting on with it.


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## MadAdey (Dec 1, 2011)

I do not know how much evidence there is for this creating people who hit the ball better. Every few years a new one comes out. Does anyone remember Dalton McCrearys straighter shooting golf. I had the books and Videos...yes videos not DVD's that is how long ago it was. I learnt how to do it one winter and only ever used the range for 1 month while incorporating this new swing, so as not to do any of my old ways. When I did get it to the course it was absolutely useless. I could not hit a barn door with a Banjo, let alone a par 3 from 150 yards. Did anyone else try this one?


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## chrisd (Dec 1, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			Every few years a new one comes out. Does anyone remember Dalton McCrearys straighter shooting golf. I had the books and Videos...yes videos not DVD's that is how long ago it was.
		
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I bought it just out of interest when it finally cost almost zilch, and I still have it, in video form, gathering dust in a draw at work!  The main idea was to hit straight along a straight line for about 3ft of the downswing. 


Chris


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## evahakool (Dec 1, 2011)

MadAdey said:



			I do not know how much evidence there is for this creating people who hit the ball better. Every few years a new one comes out. Does anyone remember Dalton McCrearys straighter shooting golf. I had the books and Videos...yes videos not DVD's that is how long ago it was. I learnt how to do it one winter and only ever used the range for 1 month while incorporating this new swing, so as not to do any of my old ways. When I did get it to the course it was absolutely useless. I could not hit a barn door with a Banjo, let alone a par 3 from 150 yards. Did anyone else try this one?
		
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Yes I remember getting Dalton McCrearys videos,hit longer straighter shots in 6 weeks or your money back,should have sent for my money back as it was not much help to me

When I first tried S&T I found you could learn alot about the swing without hitting a ball,The tip I found in the book that was really helpfull was to draw a line in the grass,and imagine the line as a ball, then swing and see where the diverts were,this gave you good feedback as you are ment to hit the line and not behind it.

I tried it with my "normall" swing first and then the S&T swing ,and although not hitting the line every time,most times behind it,but with a bit of practice it did get better.

I found putting most of the weight on the left side and dipping the shoulder easy enough,the part I would say I found the most difficult was learning to "straighten the legs and lift up on the follow through" something I still get wrong if I dont pay attention. But all in all it has helped,probebly the biggest part of my game its helped the most is from around 120 yards and in ,before I was'nt hitting the greens consistantly enough,but now I hit most greens from this distance,and consiquently getting better scores.


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## Captain_Black (Dec 1, 2011)

I have been trying out the S & T swing for the last month or so, as a new(ish) player I have been having trouble shifting my weight from the back foot to the front foot on the conventional swing.

So far the only pro has been.
Better ball contact

The con's have been.
More weight on my left knee than is usual.
More lower back pain (lumbar region)
A tendency to hook the ball. 

I am not sure I will continue with it.
I think it put's more stress on your left knee through weight & twisting.
Also because you tend to come down on the ball at a sharper angle & turn faster I find it hurts my lower back.
I have not noticed any major difference in shot length (except driving, which tends to be shorter)
I think I will persevere with the traditional swing, certainly in the off season anyway.


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## JustOne (Dec 1, 2011)

evahakool said:



			...,the part I would say I found the most difficult was learning to "straighten the legs and lift up on the follow through" something I still get wrong if I dont pay attention.
		
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Check your stance isn't too wide. If it's too wide you can easily get 'stuck in the middle'. Also ensure your left foot is flared open approx 20-30Â°.

On the downswing I allow my weight onto the left heel, from there it's easy to extend up using thigh muscles... it's flippin' hard to use the toe muscles to do it  LOL

hope that helps.


(same applies to Cpt Black, check your stance isn't too wide..start hitting a few balls with your feet together and take it from there, chances are you've made a mistake in your set up... too conventional probably)


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## Smiffy (Dec 2, 2011)

I wish you'd spend some time with me on the practice ground working on S&T James.
I feel that it could benefit my game.


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## chrisd (Dec 2, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			I wish you'd spend some time with me on the practice ground working on S&T James.
I feel that it could benefit my game.
		
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.............. avoids the opportunity for a cheap, sarcastic pee take .........


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## Smiffy (Dec 2, 2011)

chrisd said:



			.............. avoids the opportunity for a cheap, sarcastic pee take .........
		
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That's a first!!


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## chrisd (Dec 2, 2011)

Smiffy said:



			That's a first!!


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Agreed, but after seeing Jeremy Clarkson's problems after his attempt at sarcasm I don't want 25,000 complaints asking for my sacking from  the forum!


Chris


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## evahakool (Dec 2, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Check your stance isn't too wide. If it's too wide you can easily get 'stuck in the middle'. Also ensure your left foot is flared open approx 20-30Â°.

On the downswing I allow my weight onto the left heel, from there it's easy to extend up using thigh muscles... it's flippin' hard to use the toe muscles to do it  LOL

hope that helps.


(same applies to Cpt Black, check your stance isn't too wide..start hitting a few balls with your feet together and take it from there, chances are you've made a mistake in your set up... too conventional probably)
		
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Thanks James, I will Check my stance next time I practice/play, not looking anytime soon with this weather up here.


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 5, 2011)

Right, my copy of the Bennett and Plummer S&T book turned up yesterday and I have to say it's a fascinating read. I love hearing from people who question perceived wisdoms and test things for themselves.

The basic principles (only read first few chapters) seem logical. Practicing the set-up, it seems comfortable as well. I'm looking forward to getting out on the range and giving it a try. They say that a traditional weight shift swing typically produces ball-striking issues and slices. That's me on a bad day when I can't get all the moving parts, planes and axes back to the ball together.

Can't be any worse than the slappy, chunky shots I was hitting on Saturday. I'll try to share a few updates about how it goes.


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			I'll try to share a few updates about how it goes.
		
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Enjoy. Any questions just ask


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 5, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Enjoy. Any questions just ask 

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You may regret that generous offer!  

After a fairly inconsistent season (last few stableford scores are 40-40-28-36-26) I am excited about giving it a try.


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2011)

I feel it only fair to say that I've gone back to S&T over the last few weeks and have noticed a drastic improvement in my scoring.

Since my track was altered to add length to the course I've struggled to get even close to my handicap. Most weeks playing anywhere from 2 over, to 5-6 over my handicap. 

Over the last few weeks I've spent 3 nights a week at the range working on the S&T principles, in conjunction with reading the book, I have felt my ball striking has improved dramatically.

Played my first full 18 holes since going back to S&T last weekend, guess what, Shoot 4 under my handicap. I don't think/remember hitting one iron or wedge fat. Direction seemed much better and, if I'm being honest, It just felt more natural. The driver was still misbehaving, but that's nothing new!

The only issue I had was with the start of the downswing, but the book and some advice from James (Just One) helped me past it. 

I'm going to spend the winter months working on this and see how I progress, but so far, I'm not disappointed.


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 5, 2011)

I can feel an S&T swings-only forum meet coming on next year!


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## One Planer (Dec 5, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			I can feel an S&T swings-only forum meet coming on next year! 

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Well there's at least 3 of us :smirk:


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## JustOne (Dec 5, 2011)

Gareth said:



			Played my first full 18 holes since going back to S&T last weekend, guess what, Shoot 4 under my handicap. I don't think/remember hitting one iron or wedge fat. Direction seemed much better and, if I'm being honest, It just felt more natural.
		
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Awesome!... remember it's not going to get you to scratch in a week  but what it does do is prove to you that you have the possibility to improve without having 3500 swing thoughts or an entire year on the range. Just stick with the fundamentals as written, don't try to make it up as you go along. There's nowt wrong with a nice 5yrd push-draw.


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## USER1999 (Dec 5, 2011)

I am now into holistic golf.

S and t is so last year darling.


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 12, 2011)

So I took the plunge and gave the S&T principles a first outing at the range over the weekend. I was really impressed with it for first efforts.

Definitely felt like the ball-striking was more solid and gaiend a few yards distance through the strike quality without having to go after the ball.

I really liked the self-diagnosis section in the book. My bad ones were pushes or over-draws/hooks. Quick check of the fault trees in there and I could tweak set-up and a few bits and bobs to counteract the problems.

Obviously first time out there are going to be plenty of elements to work on, but I would say it is worth pursuing. I'm impressed.


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## Oddsocks (Dec 12, 2011)

Monty, what was the name of the book?


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## One Planer (Dec 12, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			Monty, what was the name of the book?
		
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stack-Tilt-Swing-Definitive-Remaking/dp/1592404472


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## Oddsocks (Dec 12, 2011)

Captain_Black said:



			The con's have been.
More weight on my left knee than is usual.
More lower back pain (lumbar region)
A tendency to hook the ball. 

I am not sure I will continue with it.
I think it put's more stress on your left knee through weight & twisting.
Also because you tend to come down on the ball at a sharper angle & turn faster I find it hurts my lower back.
		
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these were my main concerns with the S&M swing 

I suffer alot through no acl and damaged cartlidge in the left knee, and i dont think S&M would help it in any manor...


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## CMAC (Dec 12, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			these were my main concerns with the S&M swing 

I suffer alot through no acl and damaged cartlidge in the left knee, and i dont think S&M would help it in any manor...
		
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S&M definitly won't help it, you might enjoy it more though:thup:


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## Oddsocks (Dec 12, 2011)

im just going on what justone said to me by PM.

"oddsocks, 

if your struggling im more than happy to offer a few hours on the practice ground showing you the basics of S&M "

was he trying to groom me!


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## One Planer (Dec 12, 2011)

Oddsocks said:



			im just going on what justone said to me by PM.

"oddsocks, 

if your struggling im more than happy to offer a few hours on the practice ground showing you the basics of S&M "

was he trying to groom me!
		
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OO'-Er' missis


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## DaveM (Dec 12, 2011)

Think its great that people try differant swings. Its the only way to learn. I had to rebiuld my swing this year due to a long time off with injury. Tried S&T mind S&M sounds more fun. Found it agravated my injurys to much. But the swing did work but not for me.  Based most of my new swing on the book " The 7 laws of the golf swing" it deals more with the biomecanical side of the swing. I have found I can fit it around my injuries without to much pain. But please keep updates lads on how you are getting on with S&T.


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## One Planer (Dec 15, 2011)

As per DaveM's request for updates (...... So blame him :whoo, I thought rather than start a new thread, I'd just tag my blurb in here.

After shooting my lowest round for a long time (80) after going back to S&T 2 weeks ago I have spent alot of time reading the book and hitting balls at the range. Went to the range straight from work last night, 1 basket of 100 balls. All balls hit of the matt. Not tee'd up.

Long irons:

My bad shot previously was a push fade and, if I really went after it, a slice. Since going back to S&T I've worked on a better transition at the top and a smoother tempo to my swing. 

My regular shot shape was either straight, or straight whith a gentle fade (5 Yards).  Since changing my swing, my regular shape is straight or a gentle draw, again around 5 yards. 

My bad shot previously was a push fade and, if I really went after it, a slice. Since going back to S&T I've worked on a better transition at the top and a smoother tempo to my swing. My bad shot is now a low hook, but again, only happens when I try and muller the ball. I also have a tendancy (When trying to club the skin off it) of getting a little "armsy" and leading the swing with my arms exaggerateing the hook. 


Mid irons:

Again my regular shot was straight with again a gentle fade. Bad shot, again, was a push fade right. Over the last few visits to the range my mid irons have been straight with the 6 and 7 iron getting a hint of draw but not to the same level as the longer 4 and 5 irons. 

My bad shot with these, again is a low hook, but as previous only when I try and club the skin off it.

Short Irons and wedges:

I have never really suffered with the shorter clubs and have always made decent, ball first contact with the shorter clubs. The once thing I have noticed, particularly with the wedges is how much additional height I'm getting. Ball flight appears to be alot higher than with my previous swing and, this is just a feeling more than a swing change, they feel easier to hit.

To be honest I think alot of my bad shots and poor strikes are down to alignment issues and maybe me being a litte lazy at set-up. I'm just waiting on Santa for some new tour sticks to help with this.


That's pretty much where I'm at. I'm playing 18 holes (weather permitting) at the weekend so hopefully another low score :whoo:

As a side question, maybe one for James this. I've noticed that if I use my old ball position I tend to hit noticably more hooks. If I move my ball position forward, only slightly, I get a good ball flight as stated above. Does this sound about right? 

Should the ball position move forward fractionally for S&T?


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 15, 2011)

Gareth said:



			As a side question, maybe one for James this. I've noticed that if I use my old ball position I tend to hit noticably more hooks. If I move my ball position forward, only slightly, I get a good ball flight as stated above. Does this sound about right? 

Should the ball position move forward fractionally for S&T?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with your interpretation Gareth, but i'm struggling to think of a  clear way to say how!

Can't remember all the details in Bennet and Plummer, but having the ball too far back is likely to cause excessive draw or a hook. Effectively you are hitting too far out of the back of the arc, which means the club is still on a more pronounced outward trajectroy. Depending on how the clubface is angled at that moment, you can hit pushes or hooks, or even fades.

Nearer the front foot, it is on a less aggressive outward trajectory, as per the in-out-in swing arc. Like hitting from 4 o'clock on a clock, face rather than 5 o'clock (I'm exaggerating but you get the point)

As they say, it all depends on where the midpoint of your shoulder/sternum is as to where your arc is.

As for moving the ball forward more for S&T, I guess that it a subjective statement that varies from person to person and depends on where you played the ball in your stance previously. 

I would say I played the ball from relatively far forward in my stance before so have not really had to make much of an adjustment to ball position, but you may have a different set-up and be getting different results.

The good thing about S&T, as you know, as that they let you try things out for yourself, rather than telling you exactly how to do things 

hope you don't mind my two penneth... still working it all out myself so trying to solve a few problems is all very handy!


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## One Planer (Dec 15, 2011)

All opinions welcome as always Monty.

See I played the ball quite far back with my previous swing. Moving it forward a touch seems to be helped me keep better control of the flight. 

How are you finding it?


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 15, 2011)

I've only had a couple of range sessions with it so far, but lots to be encouraged by. As is widely reported, better ball striking, always a right to left shape, but just overcooking a few into hooks while I get to grips with set up and try to get a feel for the key positions.

What I'm impressed by is that while it seems like a radical change in theory, in practice it just seems to build on what you have already, swing-wise with some very achieveable and easy to understand chnages. For example, leaving your weight on the left is a simple feeling to get and put into action. 

Taking hands on the inside over the right shoe: again, easy to see if you're doing that move as they have a simple way of viewing it.

I have got to a decent handicap while showing ALL the common faults they describe in an orthodox swing: namely, big body move away from the target, fats, weak fades etc. It all really resonates with what I know of my own game. So if I can get to grips with S&T, I feel I can knock a couple of shots off my hcp without too many problems.

I'll keep plugging away on the range for a few weeks, and take it to the course in the new year.


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## Slime (Dec 15, 2011)

Hi all. Have stumbled on this thread & found it fascinating.
I'm in my 50's & have been playing off around 17 for over 10 years now.
Want to have a final bash at reducing my handicap to around 12 despite only playing every couple of weeks or so.
I have bad knees, due to too much football without properly warming up or down, and I am extremely unflexible. I also suffer from a ridiculous overswing! My half swing is your full swing & my left arm is as bent as a fiddler's elbow, in fact, I nearly strangle myself on my backswing!
I'm definitely going to give S&T a go whilst pretending that I've never played before, therfore leaving my old swing at home.
It's going to be a saga, but needs to be in place before I have a jolly in Spain next May.
I will endeavor to report back at times if you feel that would be useful.
Again, great thread & great forum,
*Slime.*


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## JustOne (Dec 15, 2011)

Welcome to the forum 'Slime',.. and to S&T. Good luck with it. How will you learn, have you bought the book?


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## Slime (Dec 15, 2011)

Not bought the book yet but have seen some useful video's on YouTube etc.
Should I get a general feel for S&T first, or should I get the book?
*Slime.*


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 16, 2011)

Slime said:



			Not bought the book yet but have seen some useful video's on YouTube etc.
Should I get a general feel for S&T first, or should I get the book?
*Slime.*

Click to expand...

I'd recommend getting the book by Bennett and Plummer. It gives a full account of how to build a S&T swing, and almost as importantly, WHY they recommend each part of their swing. It will really help your understandng of the golf swing.

Youtube is very helpful, but you'll have to look all over the place to piece together the info. It's good for tips and specific issues, once you have got to grips with the basics.

Good luck and let us know how you go.


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## Slime (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks *Monty_Brown*,
The book has just made a late entry onto my christmas list.........infact, it IS my christmas list.

*Slime*.


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## chris661 (Dec 16, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Welcome to the forum 'Slime',.. and to S&T. Good luck with it. How will you learn, have you bought the book?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and I plan to give it a real bash over the christmas period. Make sure your pm box is clear


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 16, 2011)

chris661 said:



			Yes, and I plan to give it a real bash over the christmas period. Make sure your pm box is clear 

Click to expand...

As it seems like there are a fair few people looking to use understand and discuss S&T at the moment, it would be good to have a thread for that purpose, rather than a free for all where people come on and criticise it (I am quite happy if people want to do that, but it would be good to keep the discussion separate)

Can we either chnage the title of this thread to reflect that it is for discussing S&T technique, or start a new one?

My original title was meant to be an old Mrs Merton joke but it also seems to be a lightning conductor for people who don't agree with S&T.


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## Region3 (Dec 16, 2011)

I know diddly about S&T other than you have more weight on the front leg and tilt your shoulders towards the ball (which I thought you were supposed to do anyway), but I've just had a go while I was at the range.

Setting up it felt like I was going to smash the club into the mat how my weight was distributed, but I swung anyway.

_American girl accent_

Oh............ my............. god!  

I couldn't believe how well I hit it, so I tried a few more. All the same. 4 iron, beautiful. The hybrid went well too, but my 4 wood and driver weren't so pretty. I even hit some intentional draws, but we won't go into that 

I won't be putting it into action, at least not yet anyway, but what else is there to it other than the weight and tilting shoulders?

I might have to experiment some more!


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## JustOne (Dec 20, 2011)

Region3 said:



			I even hit some intentional draws,....
		
Click to expand...


.....up until that moment I was believing every word!

:ears:


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## oakey22 (Dec 22, 2011)

Got the video's and book now, going to take a look into over winter, been hitting the ball terrible lately, had it all nailed at one point with a conventional swing, putting and short chips was letting me down. was playing to around 2-3 shots under my handicap on most friendly games with my mates. However this has alluded me now, want to try this out and maybe take parts of it on board.


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## Slime (Dec 23, 2011)

Hi folks,
well, the S&T book has arrived now............ but I'm not allowed to read it until Xmas day!
It's a present from my son, and it's just there, (he says pointing), on top of that big box just to the right of the tree.......aaaaaggggghhhhh!  
Touch it?......I can almost taste it!
How frustrating is this? I can't even cheat because it's already been wrapped!
As soon as its mine though, I'll read it, put it into practice at the range & report back. Not sure when that'll be though.
Until then, have a great Xmas everyone,
I hope your wishes come true, be lucky & stay safe,

*Slime.*


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## chris661 (Dec 23, 2011)

Oops! Meant to report back after Sunday and forgot all about it. 

I used to use a kind of variation on S&T and after getting the book last week (again) had a quick flick through it and headed out for a game on Sunday. The difference using some of the elements was far better contact with the ball especially with the irons, both from the fairway and tee. Using the driver will take some work, just to sort out address, set up and what not but the ones I did catch were pretty good with a nice shape on them.

James what's the cure for a big hook


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## theknife (Dec 23, 2011)

I use the Sean Foley method of stack and tilt...its pretty similar but with a few little differences.
used it for about 6 months and its revolutionised my driving accuracy.i can now shape the ball both ways with every club in the bag
to be honest its a great swing for anything higher than a 5 iron to a wedge.with the lower lofted clubs you need to work out the best ball position and concentrate on driving the hips by pushing up to shallow out the angle attack.


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## Slime (Dec 23, 2011)

theknife said:



			I use the Sean Foley method of stack and tilt...its pretty similar but with a few little differences..............with the lower lofted clubs you need to work out the best ball position and concentrate on driving the hips by pushing up to shallow out the angle attack.
		
Click to expand...

Just out of interest, *theknife*, where do you find the best ball position when using a driver, and where are your hands in relation to the ball?

*Slime.*


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## Doh (Dec 23, 2011)

chris661 said:



			Oops! Meant to report back after Sunday and forgot all about it. 

I used to use a kind of variation on S&T and after getting the book last week (again) had a quick flick through it and headed out for a game on Sunday. The difference using some of the elements was far better contact with the ball especially with the irons, both from the fairway and tee. Using the driver will take some work, just to sort out address, set up and what not but the ones I did catch were pretty good with a nice shape on them.

James what's the cure for a big hook 

Click to expand...


Chris 

If you go onto the Sand Trap forum you will find a thread on how to hit the driver using S&T.


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## Region3 (Dec 23, 2011)

I got the Kindle book a few days ago because I was too impatient to wait for the post.

I've only tried it at the range so far, and I thought I was doing ok until I filmed myself. Even though it feels like I'm swinging around my waist I can't get my hands low enough during the backswing. Much more work needed.

The main thing that struck me reading the book is that if the authors were coaches for the conventional swing they would starve, and are overly critical of it, unnecessarily so more than once (imo).


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## theknife (Dec 23, 2011)

Slime said:



			Just out of interest, *theknife*, where do you find the best ball position when using a driver, and where are your hands in relation to the ball?

*Slime.*

Click to expand...

normal postion,off the heel of the left foot for a mid trajectory drive.inch further forward for a high one or central for a stinger,hands are slightly pushed to the target but never get in front of the club if that makes sense.
one thing i dont do is widen my stance for my driver.i keep my stance the same width for every club form driver to 8 iron then shorten a little there on in.its just about shoulder width.
id also advise that while your getting used to the method that you use a driver of at least 10.5 degree


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## theknife (Dec 23, 2011)

Region3 said:



			I got the Kindle book a few days ago because I was too impatient to wait for the post.

I've only tried it at the range so far, and I thought I was doing ok until I filmed myself. Even though it feels like I'm swinging around my waist I can't get my hands low enough during the backswing. Much more work needed.

The main thing that struck me reading the book is that if the authors were coaches for the conventional swing they would starve, and are overly critical of it, unnecessarily so more than once (imo).
		
Click to expand...

you shouldnt need to swing that low to be honest.the method allows for a bit of interpretation really.do a you tube search for aaron baddeley when he used stack and tilt for slightly more upright and charlie wi what is a lot more shallow and correct like the book
as i said i use the foley version(tiger,mahan,rose etc) which allows me to swing more upright though its still only a 3/4 swing.i found with the books really inside backswing that i sometimes got the club stuck behind me.


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## JustOne (Dec 23, 2011)

chris661 said:



			James what's the cure for a big hook 

Click to expand...

It depends where the ball is starting, if it's starting pretty straight then it's just a case of having the clubface more open to start the ball more right, this in itself will reduce the clubface:swingpath difference and reduce curve.

If it's starting right and hooking then your swingpath needs addressing (too much in-to-out)


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## JustOne (Dec 23, 2011)

Region3 said:



			Even though it feels like I'm swinging around my waist I can't get my hands low enough during the backswing. Much more work needed.
		
Click to expand...

You're probably trying to get them too low. It's the tilt towards the ball that puts the club on a steeper inclination. If I get the inside of my left elbow somewhere near my right shoulder and then tilt my shoulders at approx 30Â° is feels plenty steep enough... obviously this won't suit everyone. Reminds me.... need to get some vids of my swing.....


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## Slime (Dec 24, 2011)

theknife said:



			normal postion,off the heel of the left foot for a mid trajectory drive.inch further forward for a high one or central for a stinger,hands are slightly pushed to the target but never get in front of the club if that makes sense.
one thing i dont do is widen my stance for my driver.i keep my stance the same width for every club form driver to 8 iron then shorten a little there on in.its just about shoulder width.
id also advise that while your getting used to the method that you use a driver of at least 10.5 degree
		
Click to expand...

Thanks *theknife, 
*I'll take that advice to the range in a few days & see how I get on.
I can't bloody wait!
Got to get my new S&T sorted before I go to Spain in May for a week's golf.
Got to beat my twin brother........I mean.....I've just GOT to beat him .

Slime.


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## JustOne (Dec 24, 2011)

theknife said:



			I use the Sean Foley method of stack and tilt...its pretty similar but with a few little differences.
		
Click to expand...

Where is Sean Foley's 'stack and tilt' method documented? ...and who teaches it?


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## theknife (Dec 24, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Where is Sean Foley's 'stack and tilt' method documented? ...and who teaches it?
		
Click to expand...

sean foley did a lot of work with bennett and plummer and then modified various parts of the swing.
watching you tube videos and analizing tigers new swing and sean o hairs swings are a good place to start
he has a dvd out called the next generation and this page is pretty good
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/foley.htm


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## theknife (Dec 24, 2011)

Slime said:



			Thanks *theknife, 
*I'll take that advice to the range in a few days & see how I get on.
I can't bloody wait!
Got to get my new S&T sorted before I go to Spain in May for a week's golf.
Got to beat my twin brother........I mean.....I've just GOT to beat him .

Slime.

Click to expand...

no worries pal...if you have any probs give me a shout


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## JustOne (Dec 24, 2011)

Ah OK, It sounded like I'd missed out on a publication by Foley or someone had actually started teaching his swing. I know his DVD is very much for beginners and wouldn't expect to find anything groundbreaking there for the 'better player'.


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2011)

JustOne said:



			You're probably trying to get them too low. It's the tilt towards the ball that puts the club on a steeper inclination. If I get the inside of my left elbow somewhere near my right shoulder and then tilt my shoulders at approx 30Â° is feels plenty steep enough... obviously this won't suit everyone. Reminds me.... need to get some vids of my swing.....
		
Click to expand...

I was just going by what's in the book, ie. left arm at same angle as the shoulders and hands level with the right shoulder.

Looking at mine I'd say that my arms were 15Â° higher than my shoulder angle and the middle of my left forearm is level with my right shouder.

I will persevere for a while but I might end up just nicking little bits from the book since I already have 2 'faults' in my conventional swing which are good for S&T, which are right leg straightening too much and hips sliding towards the target.


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## JustOne (Dec 25, 2011)

Region3 said:



			I was just going by what's in the book, ie. left arm at same angle as the shoulders and hands level with the right shoulder.

Looking at mine I'd say that my arms were 15Â° higher than my shoulder angle and the middle of my left forearm is level with my right shouder.

I will persevere for a while but I might end up just nicking little bits from the book since I already have 2 'faults' in my conventional swing which are good for S&T, which are right leg straightening too much and hips sliding towards the target.
		
Click to expand...

Wow that's pretty negative already... didn't take long  Like I said in my PM if you don't have the trust then you'll just start patching something up until you're back where you started.

*Stand up straight* facing forwards, place your left arm across your chest at approx shoulder height and support your left hand as you would if there were a club there (eg: make your grip). Rotate your shoulders 90Â° right (allowing right leg to straighten and right hip to move LEFT behind you) and left tilt shoulderline down towards the ball until you 'feel' your hands have come up to a sufficient plane.


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## richart (Dec 25, 2011)

James enjoyed our chat at the club. Got anything for me to work on ?


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Wow that's pretty negative already... didn't take long  Like I said in my PM if you don't have the trust then you'll just start patching something up until you're back where you started.

*Stand up straight* facing forwards, place your left arm across your chest at approx shoulder height and support your left hand as you would if there were a club there (eg: make your grip). Rotate your shoulders 90Â° right (allowing right leg to straighten and right hip to move LEFT behind you) and left tilt shoulderline down towards the ball until you 'feel' your hands have come up to a sufficient plane.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound negative. The only negativity is my lack of faith that I'll be able to change my swing enough to follow it to the letter, but I won't give up.

None of my fourball will be able to tell I'm trying to change my swing and will blame the bad play on my new irons oo:


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## JustOne (Dec 26, 2011)

R3,

Here's a pic of a swing arc with the low point of the arc (red arrow) marked.

We *can't* hit this ball with an iron.......




The reason we can't hit it is because we hit the ball with a descending blow and by the time the club gets to that ball the clubhead will be an inch under ground!!... that ball is sitting on the *lowest point* and this will happen.. a fat shot




The club enters the ground a little behind the ball and exits in front of it... nasty! So we have to position the ball BEHIND the lowest point (which is also called the 'back side of the circle').


It would look something like this......




But we don't want to move the ball back in our stance as that promotes too much weight on the backfoot (that's where the sh*t happens)... so instead of moving the ball backwards we *move the swing arc forwards* by putting a little weight on the left side at address and increasing that weight as the swing progresses, so we can keep the ball in the middle, and now we have a new swingarc and a new lowpoint that looks like this....




as you can see we can now hit the ball from the middle of our stance BEFORE we hit the ground at the lowpoint.

ALSO: as you can see because the swingarc is more forward and the ball is behind the lowpoint we are now approaching the ball from the INSIDE.


So it will look more like this.....




We move the lowpoint forward (dotted arc) then we hit the ball from the inside and the ground afterwards, we can't move the lowpoint forward without an aggressive move to the left... or at least apply some of the 'left' at setup.

People who move too much weight on their right foot through the swing *hardly ever* get the lowpoint forward enough of the ball (especially not amateurs), in fact many end up with the lowpoint to the RIGHT of the ball and wonder why they hit fat shots and 'flip the club and suffer from early extension in the downswing..etc etc.


Hope that helps.


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## JustOne (Dec 26, 2011)

richart said:



			Got anything for me to work on ?
		
Click to expand...

I'd quite like to have a porch built on my house if that helps????


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## Region3 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks again JO


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## JustOne (Dec 26, 2011)

richart said:



			James enjoyed our chat at the club. Got anything for me to work on ?
		
Click to expand...





Nice shoulder turn for an old 'un :ears:


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## richart (Dec 27, 2011)

JustOne said:



			I'd quite like to have a porch built on my house if that helps???? 

Click to expand...

Need somewhere to sleep when you have been locked out still ?


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

Hi fellas,
I've just come back from the range having started to read my S&T book.
I'm finding the S&T swing very strange, to say the least.
The weight over the left foot feels odd & the dropping of the shoulder downward....well....I find it just makes me bob my head down. My shots were military to say the least, left...right...left...right, with the occasional dead straight top!!
I got another bucket of balls and.............BINGO! Things started to happen.....in a good way.
My ball striking, whilst by no means pure, improved dramatically & I found myself hitting 4 to 5 yard draws about 75% of the time. 15% were going straight or straightish & the rest were crap.
The reason for this was the hip thrust on the downswing.............it just seemed to put all the other pieces together. I ended up with two swing thoughts, having already addressed the ball with more weight on my front foot.
*On the backswing* I am only interested in keeping my arms close to my body. This has two major benefits FOR ME. 1. It stops me from over swinging (a 30year old fault of mine), & 2. I can totally forget about dropping my shoulder, (it just happens automatically), which has the added bonus of eliminating my head bob.
*On the downswing* I only think of the hip thrust. This FOR ME is the most critical part of the S&T swing at the moment. As soon as I got the hang of that my ball striking & shot shape improved dramatically.
Anyway that's about it for now, but I will keep at it & report back if you would like me to do so.
Sorry this is a long post, but, I hope that someone finds at least some of my experience beneficial to their game. I must stress that this experience is definitely helpful TO ME and maybe not so much for everyone trying S&T.
All the best to everyone on this site,

*Slime.*

P.S. Anyone got a miracle cure for tennis elbow?
I've had it since May & my left elbow is killing! Bloody range mats don't help either!


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## JustOne (Dec 27, 2011)

Slime said:



			P.S. Anyone got a miracle cure for tennis elbow?
I've had it since May & my left elbow is killing! Bloody range mats don't help either!
		
Click to expand...

There's a herbal (pills) remedy called Ruta.


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

JustOne said:



			There's a herbal (pills) remedy called Ruta.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip matey.
Never heard of it but it's got to be worth a shot!
Do you speak from personal experience?

*Slime.*


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## USER1999 (Dec 27, 2011)

Buy an epicondylitis strap. These do work as far as I am concerned, but you do have to wear for a while.


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## JustOne (Dec 27, 2011)

Slime said:



			Thanks for the tip matey.
Never heard of it but it's got to be worth a shot!
Do you speak from personal experience?

*Slime.*

Click to expand...

Smiffy took it and cleared up his tennis [w*nkers in his case] elbow in a few days.


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## richart (Dec 27, 2011)

If it is proper tendonitis then a Cortizone injection otherwise rest. I assume you can not pick up a pint off the bar without great pain Slime ?  Last time I had tennis elbow it lasted nearly three years, but I did carry on playing tennis and golf.


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

murphthemog said:



			Buy an epicondylitis strap. These do work as far as I am concerned, but you do have to wear for a while.
		
Click to expand...

Been wearing one for months, but thanks anyway.

*Slime.*


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

JustOne said:



			Smiffy took it and cleared up his tennis [w*nkers in his case] elbow in a few days.
		
Click to expand...

For me it's definitely Tennis elbow. It's in my left arm & I'm a right handed w*nker .

*Slime.*


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

richart said:



			If it is proper tendonitis then a Cortizone injection otherwise rest. I assume you can not pick up a pint off the bar without great pain Slime ?  Last time I had tennis elbow it lasted nearly three years, but I did carry on playing tennis and golf.

Click to expand...

ONLY three years, thanks mate. That fills me with joy & hope...............not !!

*Slime.*


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## richart (Dec 27, 2011)

Slime said:



			ONLY three years, thanks mate. That fills me with joy & hope...............not !!

*Slime.*

Click to expand...

I am a chronic sufferer, first few times only lasted about a year.


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## sawtooth (Dec 27, 2011)

Justone is talking about ruta graveolens , Smiffy passed what he had left to me and they did seem to work. a bottle of little white pills. Could of been just sugar for all I know but after a month or so my elbow cleared up. Theres also some stretch exercises that you can do to help, hold arm out straight and bend hand back so that fingers are pointing to the sky and hold. Then do the opposite, push hand forward so that fingers are pointing to the ground and hold.


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## Slime (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks *sawtooth*,
have been doing the exercises for a few months now.
Will give Ruta Graveolens a go for sure though.
Thanks mate,
*
Slime.*
[h=1][/h]


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## SGC001 (Dec 28, 2011)

Slime said:



			Thanks *sawtooth*,
have been doing the exercises for a few months now.
Will give Ruta Graveolens a go for sure though.
Thanks mate,
*
Slime.*
[h=1][/h]
		
Click to expand...

In addition to the stretches, if you are not already doing them; then you can isolate the lower arm muscles (put elbow on a table) and do wrist curls. 

You've got micro tears in the tendon caused in part by an imbalance between the muscles of the upper and lower arm and so need to strengthen the lower arm muscles relative to the upper arm muscles, as well as stretch and rest.

Is it golfers or tennis elbow? One's on the inside and one's on the outside of the arm.


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## Slime (Dec 28, 2011)

1. 



SGC001 said:



			In addition to the stretches, if you are not already doing them; then you can isolate the lower arm muscles (put elbow on a table) and do wrist curls.
		
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2. [/QUOTE]Is it golfers or tennis elbow? One's on the inside and one's on the outside of the arm.[/QUOTE]


1. Is that with the lower arm horizontal or vertical? (Probably a dumb question).
2. Definitely tennis elbow, pain is on outside of joint......you know......the boney bit you always hit on door frames.

Thanks *sgc001*,

*Slime*.


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## SGC001 (Dec 28, 2011)

Slime said:



			1. 
2.
		
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Is it golfers or tennis elbow? One's on the inside and one's on the outside of the arm.[/QUOTE]


1. Is that with the lower arm horizontal or vertical? (Probably a dumb question).
2. Definitely tennis elbow, pain is on outside of joint......you know......the boney bit you always hit on door frames.

Thanks *sgc001*,

*Slime*.[/QUOTE]

The usual way for it to be done is to have the lower arm flat to the supporting surface, though it wouldn't matter a long as you isolated the muscles

Edit: Link http://www.uptodate.com/contents/patient-information-elbow-tendinopathy-tennis-and-golf-elbow

Exercises are slightly different for tennis and golf due to which side of the joint the pain is on and the movements they're involved with.


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## Slime (Dec 28, 2011)

[/QUOTE] The usual way for it to be done is to have the lower arm flat to the supporting surface, though it wouldn't matter a long as you isolated the muscles

Edit: Link http://www.uptodate.com/contents/patient-information-elbow-tendinopathy-tennis-and-golf-elbow

Exercises are slightly different for tennis and golf due to which side of the joint the pain is on and the movements they're involved with.[/QUOTE]

Great link. Many, many thanks for that.
Will get to work straight away,

regards,

*Slime*.

Realise we're getting a bit off topic. How's your S&T going?


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## One Planer (Dec 28, 2011)

Slime said:



			Realise we're getting a bit off topic. How's your S&T going?
		
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Very well at the minute.

Could only manage 9 today. Shot 7 over, including 4 pars and a birdie, the downside was a double and a triple that let me down.


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## CMAC (Dec 28, 2011)

Gareth said:



			Very well at the minute.

Could only manage 9 today. Shot 7 over, including 4 pars and a birdie, the downside was a double and a triple that let me down.
		
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and would this be normal for you Gareth or significantly better using S&T? genuinly interested in case you think I'm being sarcastic, as you were 2 over for 7 I'd say something must be working


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## DavidO (Dec 29, 2011)

I read about it in a magazine, but too scared to try it whilst still trying to get my game together over the winter!

Might try it though!!!


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## JustOne (Dec 29, 2011)

DavidO said:



			I read about it in a magazine, but too scared to try it whilst still trying to get my game together over the winter!

Might try it though!!!
		
Click to expand...

You're playing off 25,... what's the worst that could happen?


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## DavidO (Dec 29, 2011)

JustOne said:



			You're playing off 25,... what's the worst that could happen?
		
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Fair point...


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## oakey22 (Dec 29, 2011)

i have the book and video's but cant seem to get on with it, maybe it is because i have the conventional swing thoughts in my head still?

If i get this right, i put weight on my left side at address, keep it there on backswing while turning over the ball with my left shoulder tilting towards the ball, then fire the hips at the target but keeping my upper body back?

Am i right on this James? I have no idea if this is correct or not.


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## JustOne (Dec 29, 2011)

Yep, you're on the right lines... a basic place to start.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CHP6b2qUWg


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## One Planer (Dec 29, 2011)

DarthVega said:



			and would this be normal for you Gareth or significantly better using S&T? genuinly interested in case you think I'm being sarcastic, as you were 2 over for 7 I'd say something must be working
		
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Significantly better than usual Darth, and to be honest it feels better.

With my previous swing I was relying heavily on my scrambling to maintain my handicap. My ball striking is now drastically more consistant and has given me confidence to take on more greens from further out, and the funny thing is I'm now hitting more greens.

You could argue this is a mental aspect, but the improvement in my striking and ball flight is a reality and as a result my confidence in my limited ability is growing.


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## Monty_Brown (Dec 30, 2011)

I took S&T out on the course for the first time on Wednesday. Four birdies in the round which is a lot for me. The iron striking is a pure pleasure. Still a bit iffy off the tee... few hooks that start straightish and then veer off. At least I can self diagnose using the troubleshooting section in the book.

Most importantly, I have a clear idea what I'm working on. so if it goes wrong on course, I don't give up on it. :thup:


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## Slime (Dec 30, 2011)

Monty_Brown said:



			I took S&T out on the course for the first time on Wednesday. Four birdies in the round which is a lot for me. The iron striking is a pure pleasure. Still a bit iffy off the tee... few hooks that start straightish and then veer off. *At least I can self diagnose using the troubleshooting section in the book.
*
*Most importantly, I have a clear idea what I'm working on. so if it goes wrong on course, I don't give up on it.* :thup:
		
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Spot on.
Was at the range this morning, second S&T session, and realised that it's such a simple swing.
1st session (Tuesday) gave me a really sore neck for a couple of days, (is this normal?), but no problems today. Started of just concentrating on weight distribution (NOT WIEGHT SHIFT) & hip thrust. Most of my irons were hit really solid with a slight draw, a revelation for me.
Driver was not too good until I started experimenting with ball position. Ended up hitting a few boomers with the occasional high slice or low hook thrown in, something to work on there.
But as *Monty_Brown* said, fault diagnosis is very straightforward........because the swing is!
Hip thrust,hip thrust, hip thrust.
One problem I have is getting my old swing into the dustbin, for good, I've been using it for a long time after all.
I'm really enthusiastic about a total swing rebuild & to hit regular draws with my irons is just the incentive I need to keep me going to the range.
Not sure when I'll try it on the course but I'll keep you posted.
All the best fellas,

*Slime*.


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## DaveM (Dec 30, 2011)

What happens when you want to hit a fade.


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## JustOne (Dec 30, 2011)

DaveM said:



			What happens when you want to hit a fade.
		
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We just load up on the right leg and slice across it like you do. Sometimes we fall over.. we even hit the ball lying down having a smoke sometimes... how do YOU hot a fade?... and what happens when YOU need a draw?


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## oakey22 (Dec 30, 2011)

JustOne said:



			We just load up on the right leg and slice across it like you do. Sometimes we fall over.. we even hit the ball lying down having a smoke sometimes... how do YOU hot a fade?... and what happens when YOU need a draw?
		
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LOL, the S&T haters are about


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## AllyLodge (Dec 31, 2011)

Got the book yesterday and had a quick read through the first few pages, so i knew the basics of it. went to the range today and boy i was happy. the main diifference for me was my consistency of ball striking. nearly every shot felt good, and if i hit one that was a bit sloppy, it wouldnt be a disaster, unlike a few days ago when that was comepletely the opposite. also, s&t kind of eliminates the poor lies. i was placing it in many different positions and still easily getting the ball up in the air. wedge shots, for me are also easier to hit, and i feel much more confident when stepping up to the ball. for woods, im still a bit uncertain, but it has eliminated my slice. however, some issues that i have with my swing (i.e lifting up too much causing thins) are still there , so i know that it wont magically fix my icky swing. S&T, so far, has definitely helped me and i will most likely continue with it in my swing. would i recommend it to anyone ? depends. if you are happy with your game then no. but i was down in the dumps and always thought hitting the ball was difficult. so if you are struggling, i recommend giving it a go.

-Ally


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## G1BB0 (Dec 31, 2011)

managed to obtain the dvd's 

watching them now, sad on NYE but been ill all week so apart from a few cans nothing spectacular going down in the Gibbs household.

Gonna give it a whirl at the range on monday, already taking notes to prompt me. Off 28 so sod all to lose


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## AllyLodge (Jan 1, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			managed to obtain the dvd's 

watching them now, sad on NYE but been ill all week so apart from a few cans nothing spectacular going down in the Gibbs household.

Gonna give it a whirl at the range on monday, already taking notes to prompt me. Off 28 so sod all to lose 

Click to expand...

If, in a few months time, you have no use for the DVD set, I will take them off your hands for a reasonable sum 
Can't really be bothered to order it from USA , so going by the book at the moment


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## One Planer (Jan 2, 2012)

Just an update on how I'm progressing.

Played my last 18 holes of 2011 yesterday. Not the best conditions but  me and me old fella ventured out anyway........ And I'm so, so glad we did.

Shot to a 10 handicap. No doubles on the card, which is something I hadn't managed all year and managed a run of 4 straight pars.

At one point on the 16th (which is a 195 Yrd, par 3) I even said to my dad "I'm going to draw this into the green, so to take the trees infront of the green out of play"

Stepped up, hit the shot pretty much as I saw it and ended up in the fringe with about a 20ft putt.

Anywho back to the changes.

The driver still needs work. Not too sure where I'm going wrong as I "feel" I'm getting into the right positions, but still don't hit the shot I plan (push draw). I get a gentle push, but not the draw 

I'm going to video my swing (maybe tomorrow) to see if I can spot where I'm going wrong. Probably getting a little too preoccupied with getting into the right positions, but I know it will come in time.

The main issue I had was with my approach play from outside 150 yards. Mainly striking issues (fat, thin etc).  Since moving back to S&T I have hit some of the best approach shots I've ever hit from outside 150 yards. Yesterday managed to hit a 6 iron into a green from around 165 yards and most of my approach play either ended up in the green side bunker or within 10 yards of the green. I've said before in previous threads that one of my biggest failing is selecting the wrong club, usually not enough club for the distance so maybe a range finder or GPS on the cards for my 30th  :whoo:

I know I'm not there yet, and know I still have plenty to focus on but I have "felt" like I've been playing better, without my scores reflecting it. Yesterdays round has given me an added incentive that I'm on the right track and look forward to the coming year.


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## JustOne (Jan 2, 2012)

Gareth said:



			"I'm going to draw this into the green, so to take the trees infront of the green out of play"
		
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They put trees in front of your greens???? ...sounds tricky! 




Gareth said:



			The driver still needs work. Not too sure where I'm going wrong as I "feel" I'm getting into the right positions, but still don't hit the shot I plan (push draw). I get a gentle push, but not the draw 

Click to expand...

If you're getting a small push that's excellent, now you've just got to get the swingpath a little more in-to-out to create the drawspin. Make sure you're alignment/shoulders aren't open, everything square (parallel) to the target line, try having the hands just a little more forward at address and see how you get on. You need to feel like you're swinging down, flattening out, then hitting the ball at the 4 o'clock position.


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## Slime (Jan 2, 2012)

Slime update.
Range session 3.
Okay, mixed results today.
Irons...lovely, borrowed Ping hybrid...beautiful, my Callaway 4 wood...absolutely fine, borrowed R11 driver...NIGHTMARE!!!
It was a 10* (max adjustment) R11 with a regular shaft & I just could NOT hit the damn thing properly.
90% of hits were a pushed slice. It sent the ball miles but would finish up to 45* off line. I tried adjusting ball position, swing speed, weight distribution & all to no avail.
The feeling I had was that I was standing upright far too quickly & had great trouble getting the hip thrust correct. Is this normal for those embarking on S&T? Is it my sh#te golf swing? (Although my 4 wood was going really well)! Would a stiff shaft correct the fault? (Really clutching at straws methinks)!
Any comments (ideally from S&T advocates) would be gratefuuly received.
I really would love to be able to have confidence in my driver!
My local PGA golf pro is going to have a look at my swing tomorrow but I know he's not a great advocate of S&T for golfers with a handicap in double figures. He knows it can be great for iron play but says most golfers have trouble getting the hip thrust correct when using a driver, is he correct?
Help me someone.........pretty please.
Many thanks forummers,

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Jan 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			They put trees in front of your greens???? ...sounds tricky! 

Click to expand...

You're not kidding!  Strictly speaking they're not in front of the green but in an area between the previous fairway and the next green. Never the less the final tree in the row covers about a third of the left hand side of the green. Hittin right to left into this green is ideal.




			If you're getting a small push that's excellent, now you've just got to get the swingpath a little more in-to-out to create the drawspin. Make sure you're alignment/shoulders aren't open, everything square (parallel) to the target line, try having the hands just a little more forward at address and see how you get on. You need to feel like you're swinging down, flattening out, then hitting the ball at the 4 o'clock position.
		
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Thanks for the tips, again, James. I'll try what you suggest at the range later this week.


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## JustOne (Jan 2, 2012)

Slime, the pattern for driver is to hit it about level (not up on it or down on it), 50% of tour pros hit down at -1Â° so don't panic. The key is in the setup, set up normal with a little weight on your left then bump your hip slightly towards the target a couple of inches, this will help the downswing come from the inside (drawspin), the hands should be forward so there is an inch or two of shaft lean towards the target. The clubface at address should point a fraction right of your target to get the ball started to the right (and then draw back).

If you want to hit up on the ball (which it sounds like you are trying to do) then on your downswing you really need to swing quite a lot from in-to-out through the ball to compensate for the upwards impact.. as much as 13Â° to the right (McIlroy does this, just so you know )


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## AllyLodge (Jan 2, 2012)

I'll do the same as slime.
Session 2
I've read About 75 pages of the book, and the only thing I dont understand is the "hands in" bit. Seems a Bit dim, but I just don't seem to get it. This session, there were more cons than pro's.
Pros:
The ball-striking is phenomenal. I was placing the balls in awful lies, such as large divots and hard grass, and they were all easily launching in the air.
Cons:
My back Is starting to hurt, A LOT. Not sure how to solve this, which is a bit worrying.

I'm not really getting a push draw, which is really disappointing. I'm getting s slight fade, which may be because I'm not going from out to in, my grip or not doing the hands is part of it.  Don't really know what to do here , so any help would be appreciated.

-Ally


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## JustOne (Jan 2, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			My back Is starting to hurt, A LOT. Not sure how to solve this, which is a bit worrying.
		
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If that's the case make sure you warm up *properly* before hitting full shots. It's not unusual for muscles that have never been used properly to ache when used heavily for the first time in a new way. If I play football I can barely walk for the next two days,... did 100 sit-ups once and couldn't stand up straight for 3 

Just be careful with your new powers! 


for backswing watch this video, especially towards the end with clubs on the floor...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jr1hUhILyM


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## AllyLodge (Jan 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If that's the case make sure you warm up *properly* before hitting full shots. It's not unusual for muscles that have never been used properly to ache when used heavily for the first time in a new way. If I play football I can barely walk for the next two days,... did 100 sit-ups once and couldn't stand up straight for 3 

Just be careful with your new powers! 


for backswing watch this video, especially towards the end with clubs on the floor...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jr1hUhILyM

Click to expand...

Thanks, will look at all of his blog, looks rather interesting.

First time I went to the gym I couldn't straighten my arms for 2 days


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## G1BB0 (Jan 2, 2012)

quick q for you Justone, as a leftie who plays right I have always felt that it actually hinders me, I feel that the weight being on the left with s&t will come more naturally being a leftie, is there anything to back this up or does it not make a jot of difference?


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## big_russ (Jan 2, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			the only thing I dont understand is the "hands in" bit. Seems a Bit dim, but I just don't seem to get it
-Ally
		
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Ally, if you watch the dazhwood blog then watch some of his other more recent coaching videos he shows how the hands in movement is achieved.


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## JustOne (Jan 2, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			quick q for you Justone, as a leftie who plays right I have always felt that it actually hinders me, I feel that the weight being on the left with s&t will come more naturally being a leftie, is there anything to back this up or does it not make a jot of difference?
		
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Hard to say anything conclusive, I'm a left who plays right, however my right arm is the strongest. Mickelson is a rightie who plays left... it has to be whichever you are most comfortable with. Did you ever try playing as a leftie?


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## JustOne (Jan 2, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			First time I went to the gym I couldn't straighten my arms for 2 days 

Click to expand...

I had similar however it was after I found www.10000000pornofilms.com


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## G1BB0 (Jan 2, 2012)

nah feels totally wierd, think its due to getting right handed clubs as a kid and just learning to hit it and its stuck. Funny thing is when I was in the army could only shoot left handed as cant even try it right handed. Maybe I am just messed up lol. Watching Dazhwood's vids atm, very good indeed


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## AllyLodge (Jan 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Hard to say anything conclusive, I'm a left who plays right,* however my right arm is the strongest *. Mickelson is a rightie who plays left... it has to be whichever you are most comfortable with. Did you ever try playing as a leftie?
		
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Wonder why your right arm is the strongest ?


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## Slime (Jan 3, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Slime, the pattern for driver is to hit it about level (not up on it or down on it), 50% of tour pros hit down at -1Â° so don't panic. The key is in the setup, set up normal with a little weight on your left then bump your hip slightly towards the target a couple of inches, this will help the downswing come from the inside (drawspin), the hands should be forward so there is an inch or two of shaft lean towards the target. The clubface at address should point a fraction right of your target to get the ball started to the right (and then draw back). )
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help matey, 
I'm assuming the ball is adjacent to or just inside my left heel, is this correct?
Am at the range again tomorrow, will report back.

*Slime*.


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## Slime (Jan 3, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			My back Is starting to hurt, A LOT. Not sure how to solve this, which is a bit worrying.
-Ally
		
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Hi *AllyLodge*,
I found after my first attempt at S&T, which was totally new to me, the following couple of days my neck was really sore from my windpipe round to level with just behind my right ear! I mean it was SORE, but now it's fine as I'm giving those areas regular workouts, i.e. S&T range sessions.

*Slime*.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 3, 2012)

Update from me...

It's all really starting to click. Had a game at Hanbury Manor on Saturday. Playing off the championship tees, was -1 under par gross after 5 holes, and can honestly say I have NEVER hit the ball better in 20 years playing the game. Threw shots away only through a rusty short game.

The only poor shots were pushes with short irons and wedges. I'm wondering whether to use a less severely inside the line takeway on shorter clubs. Anyone have similar issues on short irons? I don't really want to get into the issue of actively getting hands through the ball... I'd rather it was subconscious.


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## JustOne (Jan 3, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			The only poor shots were pushes with short irons and wedges. I'm wondering whether to use a less severely inside the line takeway on shorter clubs. Anyone have similar issues on short irons? I don't really want to get into the issue of actively getting hands through the ball... I'd rather it was subconscious.
		
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If you are pushing then the swingpath is already not enough to the inside (no draw spin)... or you have the face a little too open at impact and the ball is starting a litte too far right to recover.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 4, 2012)

I was just having a mooch on the S&T website and here's the list of UK-based instructors that Bennett and Plummer have trained or accredited. Thought it might be useful for anyone looking to pursue more formal coaching. 

Philippe Bonfanti
Isle of Purbeck Golf Club
Dorset BH19 3AB, United Kingdom

James Hirshfield
Radlett Golf Centre
Hertfordshire, United Kingdom
Phone - 44 7941 267 672

Darren Hopwood
Penwortham Golf Club
Preston, PR1 0AX, United Kingdom
Phone - 44 01772 742345

Sam Quirke
Drift Golf Club
Surrey KT24 5HD United Kingdom
Phone - 44 07879 624 361

James Ridyard
The Bedford Golf Club
Bedford United Kingdom
Phone - 44 7737 553265


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## One Planer (Jan 4, 2012)

Is that the full list Monty?

I'm gutted there isn't one in the midlands


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 4, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Is that the full list Monty?

I'm gutted there isn't one in the midlands 

Click to expand...

Afraid so. You mean Stoke isn't near Preston? Both sound like the frozen North to me! 

I'm lucky that I could get to James Hirshall in Radlett or James ridyard in Bedford in well within an hour.

I'm tempted to stick with the the self-teaching from book and video for a few months, then go for a mid-season tune-up with an instructor. I imagine these guys are fairly pricey as there's aren't many S&T guys around....


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## One Planer (Jan 4, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Afraid so. You mean Stoke isn't near Preston? Both sound like the frozen North to me! 

Click to expand...

Probably about an hour and 20 away from me. Not exactly the "Ends of the Earth" but bit far to jaunt for a lesson.




			I'm lucky that I could get to James Hirshall in Radlett or James ridyard in Bedford in well within an hour.

I'm tempted to stick with the the self-teaching from book and video for a few months, then go for a mid-season tune-up with an instructor. I imagine these guys are fairly pricey as there's aren't many S&T guys around....
		
Click to expand...

I'm going to stick to what I'm doing also (Self taught from the book) as I'm seeing real benefit. Then, maybe, if I can afford, try ad book a lesson and try and convince HID we can make a day of it. Here's hoping anyway.


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2012)

Another update : range session 4.
Everything working really well today except.............driver.
Lots of really high slices. I think I know what's happening.........I just can't get out of the habit.
What's happening, at least this is what it feels like, is that I'm standing upright before I've hit the ball & almost falling over backwards in the follow through. It feels as though I'm having to 'throw' my hands at the ball to avoid missing it completely because I'm starting to stand up too early.
Does this make sense, if so, is this a common problem & what can I do to overcome it?
Am I just trying to hit it too hard?
Every now & then I hit a real BOOMER & this gives me the incentive to carry on........I'm not going to give up on this!
What's really wierd is that I am hitting my 4 wood beautifully off either a peg or the mat!
Should driver be so frustrating?
Will keep in touch in the hope that someone may benefit from my experiences,

*Slime*.


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## Region3 (Jan 4, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Is that the full list Monty?

I'm gutted there isn't one in the midlands 

Click to expand...

JO posted a link to a video by Darren Hopwood a few days ago. I found his site and had a look around and he does video coaching too, so no need to travel. There are examples on his site if you want to see what it's like.


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## One Planer (Jan 4, 2012)

Region3 said:



			JO posted a link to a video by Darren Hopwood a few days ago. I found his site and had a look around and he does video coaching too, so no need to travel. There are examples on his site if you want to see what it's like.
		
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Top man R3 I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip off


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## AllyLodge (Jan 4, 2012)

Session 3:
Started to come inside on backswing which is promoting a lovely 5 yard draw. Not sure if I am coming too far inside , or hinging my wrists too early, so will film my swing on Friday. Everything is pretty good though. Driving is okay I guess, hit a few lovely draws and one god awful slice, but still happy.
Thanks justone for advising me dazhwood's videos, they helped a lot :

-A Happy Ally


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 4, 2012)

AllyLodge said:



			Session 3:
Not sure if I am coming too far inside , or hinging my wrists too early, so will film my swing on Friday.
		
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Really good thread on the Sandtrap about "deep hands" here

That should help you understand the move inside on the backswing. A really good read I've gone back to repeatedly. Hope it helps.


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## JustOne (Jan 4, 2012)

Deep hands is the true definition of *width*, a misunderstanding for many years... people think width means WIDE and they are so wrong. That whole 'take it back in a straight line and reach out to the right' is 100% rubbish. The swing is an arc.


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## big_russ (Jan 4, 2012)

A few example videos that show the correct and path during the back swing. dazhwood always uses the first one of Charlie Wie during his instruction. Hope they help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlCvFU6V-3o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfQ8UPJl9kE&feature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=qOADHPB29vA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eF3eKOa_3o&feature=related


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## G1BB0 (Jan 4, 2012)

so I have got the dvd's, just ordered the book, now I need some energy after work to hit the range 

have been doing a few of the drills at home and feels really solid. Lets hope it feels as good hitting balls instead of an impact bag


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## AllyLodge (Jan 4, 2012)

big_russ said:



			A few example videos that show the correct and path during the back swing. dazhwood always uses the first one of Charlie Wie during his instruction. Hope they help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlCvFU6V-3o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfQ8UPJl9kE&feature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=qOADHPB29vA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eF3eKOa_3o&feature=related

Click to expand...

 thanks. Made me realise I've been taking it inside but then becoming steep at top. Need to try and get an arc 

-Ally


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## paddyc (Jan 5, 2012)

Considering S&T as a possible solution to remedying my tendency to come out of posture pulling the club too far inside, getting too steep and coming over the top leading to inconsistent strikes. I think staying on my left side would help in maintaining my posture and all I need to is turn my shoulders to keep me centred and get me on plane.

Would you S&T advocates say my problem may improve by adopting the S&T.
Any other useful hints and links appreciated


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## G1BB0 (Jan 5, 2012)

exactly the reasons I am giving it a go paddy, will let you know how my 1st range session goes tomorrow night


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## paddyc (Jan 5, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			exactly the reasons I am giving it a go paddy, will let you know how my 1st range session goes tomorrow night 

Click to expand...

Nice one. I hope to get to the range on Friday, so look forward to seeing how you get on.


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## JustOne (Jan 6, 2012)

Slime said:



			Another update : range session 4.
Everything working really well today except.............driver.
Lots of really high slices. I think I know what's happening.........I just can't get out of the habit.
What's happening, at least this is what it feels like, is that I'm standing upright before I've hit the ball & almost falling over backwards in the follow through. It feels as though I'm having to 'throw' my hands at the ball to avoid missing it completely because I'm starting to stand up too early.
Does this make sense, if so, is this a common problem & what can I do to overcome it?
Am I just trying to hit it too hard?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, missed your post.

If you are hitting slices then you have to look at the clubface/swingpath relationship.
If the clubface is open a little at impact (pointing right) and your swingpath is fairly straight at impact then the ball will slice. So you have to effectively make your swingpath more OUT and/or close the clubface a few degrees. Where does the ball start left/straight/right?

Note: If you are trying to hit UP on your driver (instead of level) then you need a swingpath that is approx 10Â° out to the right of the target line, less if you are hitting level or down.


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## One Planer (Jan 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Note: If you are trying to hit UP on your driver (instead of level) then you need a swingpath that is approx 10Â° out to the right of the target line, less if you are hitting level or down.
		
Click to expand...


If this is the case. Would you advise moving the ball back a touch James?


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## Slime (Jan 6, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Sorry, missed your post.

If you are hitting slices then you have to look at the clubface/swingpath relationship.
If the clubface is open a little at impact (pointing right) and your swingpath is fairly straight at impact then the ball will slice. So you have to effectively make your swingpath more OUT and/or close the clubface a few degrees. *Where does the ball start left/straight/right?
*
Note: If you are trying to hit UP on your driver (instead of level) then you need a swingpath that is approx 10Â° out to the right of the target line, less if you are hitting level or down.
		
Click to expand...

Hi fella,
thanks for responding,
the ball usually (80%) starts straight but sometimes (17%) starts right and very occasionally starts left (3%).
The straight starters often don't go all that far in a straight line before heading right & going high.
It almost feels as though I'm shifting to my right and trying to get under the ball with my right side..........does that make sense, do you know what I'm trying to describe?
Many thanks,

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Jan 6, 2012)

Slime said:



			Hi fella,
thanks for responding,
the ball usually (80%) starts straight but sometimes (17%) starts right and very occasionally starts left (3%).
The straight starters often don't go all that far in a straight line before heading right & going high.
It almost feels as though I'm shifting to my right and trying to get under the ball with my right side..........does that make sense, do you know what I'm trying to describe?
.
		
Click to expand...

If you are not used to it then I'd suggest as a drill you start with *more weight* on the left side at address with the hips a little bumped towards the target. Remember the idea is to *start the ball to the right* so the clubface has to be a little open, this will add dynamic loft to the impact so even if you hit down on the ball slightly it will still get plenty airborne. I don't know if you've watched this vid?.... 

[video=youtube;JXuikUmHeEQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXuikUmHeEQ[/video]

note: If you are trying to hit UP on the driver then it needs to be travelling AWAY from you more through impact (more in-to-out).

note2: I'm waiting for someone to get a vid of their swing....


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## JustOne (Jan 7, 2012)

This is the second most viewed thread in GM history.....


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## Scouser (Jan 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			This is the second most viewed thread in GM history..... 

Click to expand...

What is first? Your favorite shoe color?


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## JustOne (Jan 7, 2012)

Scouser said:



			What is first? Your favorite shoe color?
		
Click to expand...

Something to do with a Captain pushing in ......(seems it touched a nerve).


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## Scouser (Jan 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			seems it touched a nerve.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like this one

:ears:


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## Slime (Jan 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			note2: I'm waiting for someone to get a vid of their swing.... 

Click to expand...

That'll be me then! 

Thanks for the reply mate, I'm really very grateful.
As for my swing, I'll get a video in the next few days or so.
Should I PM you with it or should it be for public humiliation..................I mean public consumption!
There is always the chance, when everyone has stopped laughing, that someone else may benefit from it...........it will almost certainly make them feel better about their own swing.
Again, many thanks,

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Jan 7, 2012)

Scouser said:



			Bit like this one

:ears:
		
Click to expand...

Hehe, ...at least it pertains to a golf swing and not just a gripe    LOL


I've never understood why people that don't like S&T (for whatever reason) actually bother to read the threads, makes no sense to me whatsoever


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## chris661 (Jan 7, 2012)

Slime said:



			That'll be me then! 

Thanks for the reply mate, I'm really very grateful.
As for my swing, I'll get a video in the next few days or so.
Should I PM you with it or should it be for public humiliation..................I mean public consumption!
There is always the chance, when everyone has stopped laughing, that someone else may benefit from it...........it will almost certainly make them feel better about their own swing.
Again, many thanks,
		
Click to expand...

Public! Public! Public!


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## kid2 (Jan 7, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Hehe, ...at least it pertains to a golf swing and not just a gripe    LOL


I've never understood why people that don't like S&T (for whatever reason) actually bother to read the threads, makes no sense to me whatsoever 

Click to expand...


Good question.....

They may have a flaw or 2 that needs fixing in there own swing....
Funny thing is....I bet if most were asked about whether they tried it or not the answer would be quite surprising.


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## JustOne (Jan 7, 2012)

Slime said:



			Should I PM you with it or should it be for public humiliation..................I mean public consumption!
There is always the chance, when everyone has stopped laughing, that someone else may benefit from it...........it will almost certainly make them feel better about their own swing.
		
Click to expand...

It's up to you, although you're right about helping others.


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## One Planer (Jan 11, 2012)

Probably one for James this.

Not lon back from the range. I've been working on the driver as everything else seems to be behaving, apart from this.

Looking to hit a push draw. Again, got some pushes. Got a few that came out straight (which makes a change), but predominantly got quite a mixture of high and low hooks (These start straight and then head left). 

Would opening the face on the drive a fraction (R9 so can adjust head) help with this as I think the R9 sits slightly closed instead of square.

Thanks in advance


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## AllyLodge (Jan 11, 2012)

Update:

Everything's going good. I'm not getting a draw but that's because my grip for my clubs are too small as I have gorilla-size hands, so I'm gripping the club in the palm rather than the fingers.
Not to worry, pro is taping them all up free of charge.
Apart from that everything is fine. I understand I have to hit down on it so I'm not lifting up, and the weight to my left side for the entire swing has eliminated most of the tops and slices. 
Bring on my first round of 2012 !

-Ally


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## JustOne (Jan 11, 2012)

Yep, just open the face 1Â° and hit 5 drives... then another 1Â°... then another.......... just opening it 5Â° (or more) is hard to do right off the bat. As the face opens the hook will reduce (less face to path difference = less curve). You're looking to get the ball started maybe 5-10yds right of center. Everytime you start one straight and it hooks you know you've not got the face open enough at impact, if you really hook it low and left then you've probably rolled the clubface closed... it takes time, trust and a nerve of steel to avoid people at the range staring at you! 

As I said to my mate at the range yesterday... if you don't open the face to get some loft on it and start this one right I'm going to snap your feckin' driver... result? Nice high draw with tons of carry. Bobmac taught me that teaching method  hehehehe (j/k)


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## Slime (Jan 15, 2012)

Range Session Update.

Hi all,
have been to the range & what can I say..................wow! What a difference.
My irons were going very well, all the way up to 4 iron. I then hit a few 4 woods off the mat & they were flying really well. They were only going about 190 - 200 yards, but, i was using range balls & it was bloody freezing. Then I went onto my................................DRIVER. First bash went straighter than I can point & reached the net at the end of the range, about 250yds. That happened to be as good as it got for me though. Most of my driver shots, however, would have found most fairways & I hit none of the horrendous 'high & right' shots of last time.
The reason for this was two-fold.
1. Ego,
2. *JustOne*.
Let me explain.

Ego? I hear you ask........yup........ego. Many years ago I could bash the occasional monster drive, swung the club like John Daly & was of the belief that just because I still play footie every week I can still behave like a 23 year old. I CAN'T.
My heart says I can & my body says I can't........unfortunately my head believed my heart.......until now.
Yes, I've always liked to say that I have to have a stiff shafted driver but, because I'm nearly 54yrs old, I just can't load it up. I got honest with myself! I've just bought a driver with a regular shaft as I'm only swinging at 90 - 93mph, and I'm only going to swing slower next year....and the next....and the next....
What a difference it made! No longer am I having to thrash at the ball inorder to flex a shaft I just couldn't flex. I swing in a far more controlled manner, hit the ball STRAIGHTER & don't strain my neck looking right as soon as I've hit the thing.

*JustOne*, what can I say, you've been a great help so far, although there is still a way for me to go before I can call myself a competent Stack & Tilter & I look forward, (with trepidation), to your comments when I finally post my swing for you to look at.......it'll be a laugh if nothing else.

Moral of the story, I guess, is don't be embarrased about the equipment that you use, if it works...it works & if it doesn't......do something about it. Especially your shafts, because, if you are using the wrong shaft you will have a bugger of a job getting it to work.......I know I couldn't!

Sorry to go on a bit, thought it may help someone....if not, I'll shut up.......vote anyone?  Maybe not then!

*Slime*.


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## kid2 (Jan 15, 2012)

Slime said:



			Range Session Update.

Hi all,
have been to the range & what can I say..................wow! What a difference.
My irons were going very well, all the way up to 4 iron. I then hit a few 4 woods off the mat & they were flying really well. They were only going about 190 - 200 yards, but, i was using range balls & it was bloody freezing. Then I went onto my................................DRIVER. First bash went straighter than I can point & reached the net at the end of the range, about 250yds. That happened to be as good as it got for me though. Most of my driver shots, however, would have found most fairways & I hit none of the horrendous 'high & right' shots of last time.
The reason for this was two-fold.
1. Ego,
2. *JustOne*.
Let me explain.

Ego? I hear you ask........yup........ego. Many years ago I could bash the occasional monster drive, swung the club like John Daly & was of the belief that just because I still play footie every week I can still behave like a 23 year old. I CAN'T.
My heart says I can & my body says I can't........unfortunately my head believed my heart.......until now.
Yes, I've always liked to say that I have to have a stiff shafted driver but, because I'm nearly 54yrs old, I just can't load it up. I got honest with myself! I've just bought a driver with a regular shaft as I'm only swinging at 90 - 93mph, and I'm only going to swing slower next year....and the next....and the next....
What a difference it made! No longer am I having to thrash at the ball inorder to flex a shaft I just couldn't flex. I swing in a far more controlled manner, hit the ball STRAIGHTER & don't strain my neck looking right as soon as I've hit the thing.

*JustOne*, what can I say, you've been a great help so far, although there is still a way for me to go before I can call myself a competent Stack & Tilter & I look forward, (with trepidation), to your comments when I finally post my swing for you to look at.......it'll be a laugh if nothing else.

Moral of the story, I guess, is don't be embarrased about the equipment that you use, if it works...it works & if it doesn't......do something about it. Especially your shafts, because, if you are using the wrong shaft you will have a bugger of a job getting it to work.......I know I couldn't!

Sorry to go on a bit, thought it may help someone....if not, I'll shut up.......vote anyone?  Maybe not then!

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...


Feels good pal dont it?


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## G1BB0 (Jan 15, 2012)

good to hear Slime, I am in the process of sorting out my setup and swing but just doing it on the patio outside, I have also cut my grass today and nicked a tin of marker spray from work as going to practice my divot/impact drills in between range sessions, my lawn is to be returfed in the spring anyway as its cack 

I realised also why I played well Tuesday and cack wednesday, I was going to far onto the left side at setup, watched the video again and realised how I was mentally overloading on the left. Seem to have a decent takeaway and down swing now. Hopefully Tuesdays range session will see me hit a few draws 

keep it up and keep the updates coming


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## Slime (Jan 15, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			good to hear Slime, I am in the process of sorting out my setup and swing but just doing it on the patio outside, I have also cut my grass today and nicked a tin of marker spray from work as going to practice my divot/impact drills in between range sessions, my lawn is to be returfed in the spring anyway as its cack _*
I wonder why!*_ 

I realised also why I played well Tuesday and cack wednesday, I was going to far onto the left side at setup, watched the video again and realised how I was mentally overloading on the left. Seem to have a decent takeaway and down swing now. Hopefully Tuesdays range session will see me hit a few draws 
_*Which particular video, don't want to be missing one!*_
_*Can draw my irons pretty consistently now.......keep practicing, and practice well...........it will work.*_

keep it up and keep the updates coming
_*With pleasure mate.*_

Click to expand...


*Slime*.


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## G1BB0 (Jan 15, 2012)

I **cough** acquired the s&t series of dvd's

keep going back to the fundamentals one for reference then nip outside and go through the motion to get the feeling ingrained... my neighbours must think I am mad


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## chris661 (Jan 15, 2012)

Was having real trouble today with big high blocks figured out I was "throwing" my hips to quickly meaning I was far too far forward with my hands leaving the club face open (hopefully) slowed down the tempo and all was well even managed to hit a drive 270


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## G1BB0 (Jan 15, 2012)

270 is a distant dream for me, I measured 3 drives on tuesday with gps, 215, 218 and 233... I had a 3 wood that went 240 so the driver is deffo room for improvement 

I did nail a pw 140 aswell, I only measured it as it landed way past the green, 1 bounce then stopped


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## Slime (Jan 16, 2012)

Hi *G1BB0*,
just noticed your sig : 

"*Nike V**r** 15.5 reg 3 wood
 Nike V**r** 18deg stiff 2Hybrid
 Nike V**r** 21deg stiff 3Hybrid
 Nike V**r** Full cavity irons 4-pw reg steel*".

How do you get on with reg shafted irons & driver, yet you have stiff shafted hybrids?
Is that not a bit unusual, obviously it works for you, do you know your swing speeds for your clubs?
I'm not being critical............just curious  .

*Slime*.


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## chris661 (Jan 16, 2012)

Slime said:



			Hi G1BB0
just noticed your sig : 

"Nike Vr 15.5 reg 3 wood
 Nike Vr 18deg stiff 2Hybrid
 Nike Vr 21deg stiff 3Hybrid
 Nike Vr Full cavity irons 4-pw reg steel

How do you get on with reg shafted irons & driver, yet you have stiff shafted hybrids?
Is that not a bit unusual, obviously it works for you, do you know your swing speeds for your clubs?
I'm not being critical............just curious  .

Slime.
		
Click to expand...

I have 5.0's in my irons and all the rest are stiff I was fitted for 5.5 but they just felt better in 5.0. Might be something similar.


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## One Planer (Jan 16, 2012)

Now starting to work on  the longer clubs, specifically driver and woods, well wood (5 wood onl in my case). 

I've been working on getting correct alignment and hip position for the driver.

Here's a pic:







Please excuse the clutter of crap in the back ground (...... and my attire). I had to take it in the front room 

Just looking for any feed back from people familier with the S&T pattern.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 16, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Now starting to work on  the longer clubs, specifically driver and woods, well wood (5 wood onl in my case). 

I've been working on getting correct alignment and hip position for the driver.

Here's a pic:







Please excuse the clutter of crap in the back ground (...... and my attire). I had to take it in the front room 

Just looking for any feed back from people familier with the S&T pattern.
		
Click to expand...

From memory, the S&T book advocates having shoulders as level as possible at set-up. Your left shoulder looks a little high relative to the right. I know they can't be perfectly even as the right hand is gripping lower than the left, but it may be possible to set your shoulders a little more even, promoting a lower left shoulder on the backswing and helping you to stay centred over the ball?

Also, according to S&T theory, you could get a bit more pigeon-toed with toes pointing outwards to promote hip turn. I think it's Grant Waite of the S&T pros who take this to the extreme, worth having alook at his set-up to see what it's like.

hope that helps!


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## One Planer (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks for the reply Monty.




Monty_Brown said:



			From memory, the S&T book advocates having shoulders as level as possible at set-up. Your left shoulder looks a little high relative to the right. I know they can't be perfectly even as the right hand is gripping lower than the left, but it may be possible to set your shoulders a little more even, promoting a lower left shoulder on the backswing and helping you to stay centred over the ball?
		
Click to expand...

I've looked at a few set-up's while working on my driver, Waite's included. In this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHylHurberY

He has a similar amount of shoulder slant to myself, granted mine may be a little steeper, but not drastically?

But, then again  you look at Mike Bennetts shoulders and I see what you mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH2MSyD6U0c





			Also, according to S&T theory, you could get a bit more pigeon-toed with toes pointing outwards to promote hip turn. I think it's Grant Waite of the S&T pros who take this to the extreme, worth having alook at his set-up to see what it's like.

hope that helps!
		
Click to expand...

That is something I may try Monty. One of the reason I don't is I feel my feet should be aligned with the target line and flaring them out, I find a little off putting.

I'll gve that a try though. Thanks Monty.


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Here's a pic:






Click to expand...

If thats position is correct, does that mean this guy isn't S&T ?


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## One Planer (Jan 16, 2012)

Not strictly a  like-for-like comparison Bob as I'm pictured (trying) to position the driver where as your pic is an iron.

If you have a picture of the S&T pattern with a driver for comparison I would be very appreciative


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2012)

The guy in the pic above is Mike Bennett


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## USER1999 (Jan 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The guy in the pic above is Mike Bennett
		
Click to expand...

And what the heck would he know about stack and tilt?


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## One Planer (Jan 16, 2012)

bobmac said:



			The guy in the pic above is Mike Bennett
		
Click to expand...

Oh I realize that Bob.

My point I tried to make poorly was it was my understanding in the stack and tilt pattern, when talking about driver set up, was that the hips should be pushed a little more forward to account for the forward ball position. The head and upper centres stay where they are while the hips are pushed forward.

Perhaps I'm over doing it? I'm sure James will correct me if I'm wrong in what I've put but that is how I interpreted it and how it was explained in an instructional video


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## JustOne (Jan 17, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Perhaps I'm over doing it? I'm sure James will correct me if I'm wrong in what I've put but that is how I interpreted it and how it was explained in an instructional video
		
Click to expand...

Looks OK Gareth, it's OK to have 5Â°-10Â° tilt away from the target with driver. Agree with Monty about the feet, the left should flare 20-30Â° and the right foot 10Â° (nb: knees stay inline with the feet), make sure the ball doesn't get too far forward as the swingpath will start returning back to the inside as the club gets past your left armpit! and then you won't be impacting the ball from the inside enough, if at all.


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## One Planer (Jan 17, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Looks OK Gareth, it's OK to have 5Â°-10Â° tilt away from the target with driver. Agree with Monty about the feet, the left should flare 20-30Â° and the right foot 10Â° (nb: knees stay inline with the feet), make sure the ball doesn't get too far forward as the swingpath will start returning back to the inside as the club gets past your left armpit! and then you won't be impacting the ball from the inside enough, if at all.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks again James. I'll make adjustments to my feet position as you and Monty suggest.


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## Slime (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, S&T actually went to the course today!
Wasn't expecting too much today, just wanted to make a few good swings, wasn't interested in actually posting a decent score.
Arrived to find that there were 18 temporary greens.........................bummer, fairways were very wet too.
I actually only duffed two full iron shots, both 3 irons, the rest were struck very well, for me anyway. The problem I was having was accuracy, quite a few finished left of target because, I think, my clubface was square at impact, not slightly open. 
No worries there and was really pleased with my irons.................but I also used my driver!
1st drive........40yds forward, 30yds left.
2nd drive......170yds forward, 20yds left.
3rd drive........40yds forward, 25yds left.
4th drive......260yds forward, dead straight...........let me say that again,
4th drive......260yds forward, dead straight.
5th drive......250yds forward, 10yds left.
6th drive......245yds forward, 10yds left.
7th drive......245yds forward, 10yds left.
8th drive......240yds forward, 15yds right.
9th drive......220yds forward, thinned slicey thing that ended up fairly central.
10th drive....240yds forward, 10yds right.
Last drive.....260yds forward, 5yds left.
What changed after three sh*tty drives?    I SLOWED DOWN.
I began the round full off false hope, with new driver & new swing I thought I was God..........I wasn't.
After a few holes I had a quiet smoke & a little chat with myself telling me that S&T WILL work for me, but it'll take a little while. In the mean time just grow up, get real, slow down your swing & be patient.
What a difference, regularly 240yds+ on a cold day with sodden fairways. I just have to dial the radar in a bit to stop pulling the ball left, (it wasn't drawing to the left, I was hitting it straight there), that'll come for sure. Having been a slicer for many years, I find it VERY difficult to address the ball with my driver with the clubface slightly open!
All in all I'm very happy.
First round for many weeks & first round using S&T.............it's all coming together.
Still aim to post my swing for you guys to either rip to pieces or fine tune, whatever you see fit.
In the mean time, enjoy your golf,

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Jan 18, 2012)

Slime said:



			4th drive......260yds forward, dead straight...........let me say that again,
4th drive......260yds forward, dead straight.
5th drive......250yds forward, 10yds left.
6th drive......245yds forward, 10yds left.
7th drive......245yds forward, 10yds left.
8th drive......240yds forward, 15yds right.
9th drive......220yds forward, thinned slicey thing that ended up fairly central.
10th drive....240yds forward, 10yds right.
Last drive.....260yds forward, 5yds left.
		
Click to expand...

Nice!... won't be playing you for money!!!! 

I'm generally the other way round, I open the face too much and subsequently REALLY have to swing from the inside to get the ball to draw, in a way I do both parts too well :angry:... so work in progress for me too... I've been playing my 'S&T version' of the Bubba push-fade for practically a year and that doesn't really help! 

Just uploading some vids of my swing...


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## One Planer (Jan 19, 2012)

Small Update following a range session last night.

Worked on better feet positions (I.E flaring left foot out more). I cannot stress enough how much this has helped my transition into the downswing.

Now I'm flaring my left (lead foot) more I actually find it easier to move my knee towards the target and the whole hip movement feels alot easier. 

As for my drives. Massive improvement in direction and control. Hit alot less pushes this session, plenty straight with a few slight (3 yard ish ) draws. Out of 40 balls only 5 slices and 1 topped which is a eurika moment for me!!!!!

also hit 15 6 irons (5 as a warm up, 5 mid session, 5 to finish). All pretty much straight with the odd draw and only 3 pushes, but they only missed the target green by around 5 or 6 yards so, generally, happy.

The one thing I did notice with the driver was my ball flight was a little lower than usual. Not a daisy cutter by any stretch but lower than my usual high push out to the right. Any suggestions as to why?

Edit: Muchos Kudos James and Monty :thup:


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## jdchelsea (Jan 19, 2012)

I no very little about S&T and have no interest in changing my swing from scratch (hard enough getting to where I am now) but have nothing against people trying to use this method, just saw this article last night and thought it might interest a few people. Anybody who knows this site will know this guy is heavily technical so it's a bit wordy. anyhoo here it is:

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 19, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Edit: Muchos Kudos James and Monty :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Glad it helped Gareth. My "expert" advice is like a broken watch... it has to be right at least twice a day!


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## One Planer (Jan 19, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Glad it helped Gareth. My "expert" advice is like a broken watch... it has to be right at least twice a day!
		
Click to expand...

Such a simple thing that's helped no end. Good job I have you and James as my experts as H.I.D has "mis-placed" my book!!!


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## Slime (Jan 19, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Good job I have you and James as my experts.
		
Click to expand...

Ditto the above :cheers: .


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## chris661 (Jan 20, 2012)

JO from your video and the plummer? video are the hands finishing high part of the swing or not? (at work at cant be bothered to dig)


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Chris, both arms should remain straight.... that would result in pretty high hands... easy when you can do it 

[video=youtube;VX8D_vXh-zA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX8D_vXh-zA[/video]

I try to keep mine as straight as I can manage ....


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## One Planer (Jan 20, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Chris, both arms should remain straight.... that would result in pretty high hands... easy when you can do it 

I try to keep mine as straight as I can manage .... 

Click to expand...

Same here


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## Aztecs27 (Jan 20, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Same here






Click to expand...

Did you top that one?


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## JustOne (Jan 20, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Same here






Click to expand...

That's far better than mine! :angry::angry:


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## One Planer (Jan 20, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			Did you top that one? 

Click to expand...

Fresh air shot :thup:

James. 

Here's my position (4 frames) through impact

























At least I'm (maybe) doing something right


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## Slime (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi people : Latest range session.

The aim for today was to see whether or not I could hit a hybrid......never owned one before.
Warmed up with short irons & then mid irons before moving to the 18Â° 3H hybrid.
Messed around with the loft & settled on 18Â° & hit it off the mat & off the rubber tee peg.
I found that most of my shots were starting straight and drawing left, sometimes quite a long way.
I experimented with ball position but settled on a spot 2" inside my left heel, I hope that's correct.
On a positive note, only 3 shots went slicey right, a vast improvement on my long irons pre S&T.
Those that went straight also went long, with many pitching at around the 200yds marker and a handful sailing over it, which I thought was promising with range balls on a cold day.
As I said earlier, I did have a tendancy to hit a lot of shots left & couldn't really work out why. I was experimenting with ball position & face angle at address...................a WIP methinks.
A long way to go yet.........but I think I'm getting there.
Only 16Â½ weeks to go.....â˜¼ â˜¼ â˜¼

*Slime*.


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## Region3 (Jan 24, 2012)

This is not definitive, but just what I understand of S&T from what I've read and been told so far.

With the ball position forward of centre it's even more important to make sure your hips and weight get really forward in the downswing. If you hit the ball after the outside of the arc you're swinging on the club can be travelling out to in, and there's also a big danger of the clubface being closed to your target line. You only need one of those to be the case and you've got pulls, slices and maybe the odd hook thrown in.

Sounds like a promising start though


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

This might be quite surprising to some... but here's Luke Donald (he's the world's No1 in case you didn't know!)

He's obviously not a S&T player as he weightshifts over to his right side somewhat.... but you have to take a look at the recovery..................




1st pic: nearly at the top... weight on the right look at the grass lines behind his LEFT hip

2nd pic: At the top... now look at those grass lines..... (that's sliding the hips in transition)

3rd pic: Impact.. the hips have gone even more left... and with a vertical line drawn up from the ball you might be surprised just how much of him is in FRONT of the ball.....!!!





If he can do it moving right then you might think it would be easier when you dont........


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## JustOne (Jan 24, 2012)

Another quick one.. 6-iron: watch Mickelsons leading hip and how it keeps going towards the target, even before the backswing has finished, right through to impact (*note the hand position at impact!* )

[video=youtube;xWYEQS1yrtg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWYEQS1yrtg[/video]


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## One Planer (Jan 25, 2012)

Update:

I've been, with James' input been working on my posture at address. My main reason for this was I felt I was holding too much weight on the left at address and it was causing issues.

Here's my original posture:









Here's my posture as of 25/1







My feet flaring it still a work in process but they are more flared than usual.

Less tilting in my shoulders and a little more flex in the knees. Feels more comfortable over-all


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## Smiffy (Jan 25, 2012)

Who cuts your hair Gareth????? I'd sue 'em mate ;-)


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## One Planer (Jan 25, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			Who cuts your hair Gareth????? I'd sue 'em mate ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Judging by your avatar Smiffy, the same chap as does yours :thup:

:rofl:

I'm due a trim actually. Off to the bath with some shaving foam and a razor


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## Slime (Jan 25, 2012)

Driver session.
Oh dear.......I have some issues.
First hit, after warming up with irons, was long & straight, it was the only one  .
A few were horribly low & left but most of them were high & right.......very high & very right!
They set off slightly right before veering off whilst going very high. I guess my clubface is open at impact & my swing is out to in, please advise if that's not the case guys.
I played aroud with ball position but I don't think that's my problem.
I was aware that I often finished my follow through with most of my weight on my back (right) foot.
I'm also well aware that I'm overswinging wildly. I've had this fault all my golfing life but just can't seem to correct it and it's really pi$$ing me off now!
Please could someone advise me of any drills to stop me overswinging, once I've sorted that out maybe the rest will have half a chance of falling into place.
Will post a video of my swing as soon as I can.
Thanks for listening,

*Slime*.

P.S. Still convinced S&T is the way forward for me.................I'm not going to give up on this.


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## chris661 (Jan 25, 2012)

I find that the best ball position is just inside my left heel but with my hands more neutral rather than pressed forward slightly. Was working a treat for me last time out.


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## JustOne (Jan 25, 2012)

Slime said:



			I'm also well aware that I'm overswinging wildly. I've had this fault all my golfing life but just can't seem to correct it and it's really pi$$ing me off now!
Please could someone advise me of any drills to stop me overswinging, once I've sorted that out maybe the rest will have half a chance of falling into place.
		
Click to expand...

Put a teepeg under your right armpit.. every time it falls out when you swing you send me Â£1

Fixed.




Have sent you a PM.


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## Slime (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Put a teepeg under your right armpit.. every time it falls out when you swing you send me Â£1
Fixed.
		
Click to expand...

And every time it doesn't I'll invoice you for Â£1 :ears:  .
Thanks for the tip fella, will give it a go next range trip.

*Slime*.


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## Region3 (Jan 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Put a teepeg under your right armpit.. every time it falls out when you swing you send me Â£1
		
Click to expand...




Slime said:



			And every time it doesn't I'll invoice you for Â£1 :ears:  .
Thanks for the tip fella, will give it a go next range trip.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Don't do it. It's impossible! :angry:
If feels like swinging in a straight-jacket.


James has probably said this in his PM, but if not then I'm probably wrong.

By finishing on your back foot (which you obviously know is very naughty) it sounds to me like you're worried about the lack of loft and trying to lean back to help the ball into the air.

Starting a little right is a good thing, going further right just means you aren't swinging enough in to out.
I'm struggling with this too. The best I've (consistently) managed is start a little right and fly straight, so just a little more in to out required. Flaring the foot out is going to help, and I think most of my problem is not dropping the club behind me enough on the way down.

I found this video on Youtube which I'm going to try the drill and see if it helps. It appears to lower the club instantly on to the right plane to come in at.

[video=youtube;QL_6M_xZvq0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0[/video]


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## G1BB0 (Jan 25, 2012)

maybe swinging too fast?

slow it down and 3/4 swing see if that helps


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## JustOne (Jan 26, 2012)

Slime, how far are you trying to hit your driver? for a good drive and an average drive?

What shot shape are you trying to play? and with how much curve?


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## Slime (Jan 26, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Slime, how far are you trying to hit your driver? for a good drive and an average drive?

What shot shape are you trying to play? and with how much curve?
		
Click to expand...

I'd be happy with a distance of 240yds, preferably somewhere on the short stuff.
Anything longer than 250yds, if it's in play, would be a good drive with the very occasional 270yds drive, this I would regard as exceptional, (and probably downhill with the wind behind), but accuracy is more important than distance.
As I'm trying to learn S&T I'm looking for a slight draw, in an ideal world, but this happens very rarely. Most of my good drives tend to start straight & then fly fairly straight or pull left 10/15 yards. I can't seem to get draw on them. Check out post #208 of this thread for how my driver fared on the golf course. Range sessions since then have been absolute trash.
As a point of reference I generally carry around 155yds with a 7 iron.
Thanks mate,

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Jan 27, 2012)

A quick question for you knowledgeable folk.

As I've said in previous threads, getting the ball flight (push draw) required is one aspect I've been struggling with. I know my hands aren't moving in enough on the backswing.

In the book, am I right in saying the movement that starts the backswing is the shoulder down movement? If so do the hands and arms remain passive?

If this is true, this is what I HAVEN'T been doing


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 27, 2012)

Just saw an interesting tweet from Denis Pugh on Twitter. He was asked which young coaches impress him as coaching stars for the future. His answer was James Ridyard, one of the few S&T officially endorsed coaches in the UK.

Not trying to create propaganda, but interesting to see S&T exponents gaining credibility among established coaches. I draw no further conclusions than that.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 27, 2012)

QUOTE: Gareth "one aspect I've been struggling with. I know my hands aren't moving in enough on the backswing."


I find this hard as well. I try some backswings when it feels to be stupidly far inside, but then watch it back and it still isn't in the deep hands position that the theory recommends. It's hard. Might see if I can find any drills for this and report back.


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## One Planer (Jan 27, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			QUOTE: Gareth "one aspect I've been struggling with. I know my hands aren't moving in enough on the backswing."
		
Click to expand...





			I find this hard as well. I try some backswings when it feels to be stupidly far inside, but then watch it back and it still isn't in the deep hands position that the theory recommends. It's hard. Might see if I can find any drills for this and report back.
		
Click to expand...

 I've found Monty, after re-reading the book, that If I focus on gettig the shoulder down the movement of the arms in the back swing becomes passive and is hands in. I'm going to get a video on  the course tomorow to try and see if they're in as much as they feel.

Another thing I've noticed, while focusing on getting the shoulder down is how much more of a hip turn I have. Before I felt like I was resisting with my hip, doing this it "feels" like the right hip clears on the back swing as my right leg straightens.


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## Monty_Brown (Jan 27, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Another thing I've noticed, while focusing on getting the shoulder down is how much more of a hip turn I have. Before I felt like I was resisting with my hip, doing this it "feels" like the right hip clears on the back swing as my right leg straightens.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with that. I almost think of the backswing move as a seesaw. As the right shoulder "drops" ie turns low, the right hip goes "up", ie the right knee straightens, and the hip turn is easier. In reality there is not so much up and down, it just feels like that.  I think these two moves work sort of in harmony.


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## One Planer (Jan 27, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Agree with that. I almost think of the backswing move as a seesaw. As the right shoulder "drops" ie turns low, the right hip goes "up", ie the right knee straightens, and the hip turn is easier. In reality there is not so much up and down, it just feels like that.  I think these two moves work sort of in harmony.
		
Click to expand...

This is my point Monty.

For me, the main key in the backswing is getting the shoulder down. If you get this right, the right leg flex and hip movement take care of themselves. IMO the tilt forward is also semi covered here I.E if you conciously get your shoulder down your spine will naturally tilt towards the target?

The proof will be in the pudding over the coming months as the changes beging to become grooved.


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## One Planer (Jan 30, 2012)

Further update:

Another round under H/c since moving back to S&T :cheers:

7 over front 9, mirrored by a 7 over back 9.

My eurkia moment came between our 3rd and 5th holes.

3rd hole: 6 Iron off the tee. Got the push, no draw.

4th Hole: Moved ball position back, open face. Over drew the ball by 5 yards (Missed green 5 yards left, 10yd push draw). Moved it too far back.

5th hole: 3 iron,  Bang on :thup: . Trusted myself strated the ball out to the right (which is OOB) and got a gentle 5 yard draw into the fairway, past the dog leg, giving me a clear look at the hole. First time ever I've been there and made my approach so much easier.


I'm off to the range tonight to work on my shot cone!!! :thup:


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## JustOne (Jan 30, 2012)

Gareth said:



			I'm off to the range tonight to work on my shot cone!!! :thup:
		
Click to expand...

:whoo:


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## One Planer (Jan 31, 2012)

Went to the range straight from work to work on my shot cone to try and see where I can improve (As the book suggests). 20 balls 5 balls with irons 6 through 9. All hit with a fractionally open face.

I haven't analyzed swing path vs shot shape before and was looking for some help interpreting the figures.

Starting flight direction:

Straight 9/20

Right 5/20

Left 6/20


Start + Flight (curve)

Left + Straight = 2 (Started just left of middle, went straight, missed target approx 5-10 yards to the left)
Left + Right = 0 (Hopefully this is good LOL)
Left + Left = 4 (hooks, lack of tempo + hip turn rather than lateral slide)

Straight + Straight = 1 (hit target green)
Straight + Left = 2 (pull draw?? Missed target green left 10-15 yards approx)
Straight  + Right = 6 (started straight, gentle fade right. missed green 5 yards right)

Right + Straight = 1 (As with the left version. Started fractionally right and went straight. Missed target by approx same margin)
Right + Left = 2 whoo: Push draw. Hit green)
Right + Right = 2 (Push fade missed 15-20 yards right)

What i take from this is most of my shots are coming off the face either straight or out to the right (14 vs 6 lost left) with my only misses left coming from hooks or pull draws.

As for improving my shot cone. I think I should try and hit more from the inside, again with the face fractionally open to try and turn more of my straight starting shots to pushes? 

As it stands, I believe my shot cone to be straight to about 10 yards to the right. Does this sound about right?

I'm trying to work back through the fault tree in the book, but it's making my brain hurt 

Any opinions appreciated :thup:


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## JustOne (Jan 31, 2012)

Move the ball back. Keep your head over the ball (or just behind it at impact).


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## One Planer (Jan 31, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Move the ball back. Keep your head over the ball (or just behind it at impact).
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that James.

I was playing the 6 iron as prescribed (2 bakls inside left heel). I'm at the range again Thursday night. Would you advise moving all balls back as the pattern is similar across the club selection above?


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## JustOne (Jan 31, 2012)

I would suggest moving the ball back until you get the desired ballflight. It doesn't matter if it ends up a ball or two behind center....!!

I'd suggest hitting 7-iron right out of the center of your stance to start with and see how your flight is. The ball needs to start a little to the right.. if it's still starting straight then you need to open the clubface just a fraction until you have the ballflight... you have the tools 

For me I like to have my 6-iron pretty centered, 5-iron creeps a ball forward perhaps but that's just my swing and it ties in with MY clubface and swingpath. I like to have forward shaft lean... not toooooooo much, but I like to know it's there.


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## One Planer (Jan 31, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I would suggest moving the ball back until you get the desired ballflight. It doesn't matter if it ends up a ball or two behind center....!!

I'd suggest hitting 7-iron right out of the center of your stance to start with and see how your flight is. The ball needs to start a little to the right.. if it's still starting straight then you need to open the clubface just a fraction until you have the ballflight... you have the tools 

For me I like to have my 6-iron pretty centered, 5-iron creeps a ball forward perhaps but that's just my swing and it ties in with MY clubface and swingpath. I like to have forward shaft lean... not toooooooo much, but I like to know it's there.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds similar to mine. I know in the pattern it suggests a little shaft lean which I have, but smilar to you not an excessive amount. 

Thanks again. I'll add Thursdays results to tonights and see how they stack up.


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## Region3 (Jan 31, 2012)

Shot cone... good idea.

Here's mine


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## Slime (Feb 1, 2012)

A couple of swing vids....at last.
Didn't have any idea just how bad my swing is......it's all over the place.
Bear in mind though, it was bloody freezing today. 
Sometimes you go to the range & the swing feels okay.....today was NOT one of those days unfortunately.
Please be gentle if you can, rude if you must, but at all times........be honest.

[video=youtube_share;T3wNqCO81bw]http://youtu.be/T3wNqCO81bw[/video]


[video=youtube_share;q3NUfdK3n7s]http://youtu.be/q3NUfdK3n7s[/video]

If you hadn't worked it out, the balls were starting off slightly right & fading. Finishing around 25yds off target!
Thanks guys,

*Slime*.

P.S. I've assumed the position .


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Great quality vids!........................... the content however......


Just kidding! :ears:


OK, you are very unstable, there's a reason for that, you are not turning your hips properly. In the top vid you can see that your right hip doesn't turn and in fact your left hip does too much work as it comes very much forwards towards the ball (subsequently forcing your left kee to flex excessively and your heel to come off the ground)... in essence it's as if your left side is simply 'collapsing' into the ball.

Now I'm going to assume that you don't have any physical issues? At the moment you are really working your lower body a lot... it almost looks exhausting 

Here's a thing..... stand with your back to a wall/door/table edge, in your setup posture, making sure your right butt ckeek is a good 2-3 inches away from it and your left foot is flared (pointing left 30-40Â°)... then make a turn so that you feel your right butt cheek is moving back and to the left behind you... it should touch the wall (in approximately the location your coccyx occupied before you started turning).

Your left foot should then remain flatter and because your foot is flared your left knee shouldn't be turning so much to the right (it points way behind the ball in the lower vid). At most your left knee should point at the ball, just in front of it a little would be better.


(note: take a look at your LEFT foot in the bottom vid - see how it spins out through impact? If that happens when you're spikes dig in you might damage your ankle! That's why you need to flare it open quite a bit at address, Hogan was a good 45Â°)

So hips and feet to start with :thup:


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## chrisd (Feb 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That's why you need to flare it open quite a bit at address, Hogan was a good 45Â°)
		
Click to expand...



After all those years of wrestling and the odd film he probably was quite flexible!


Chris


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## Slime (Feb 2, 2012)

Looking at my vids this afternoon, wow, just a hint of an overswing then .
It looks like I'm using strangulation as my chosen method of attempted suicide. It's staggering what a swing video shows. I know I overswing a tad, I just didn't realise that a tad was so big!
And my legs................what the hell is that all about?  A lot to work on methinks.
Funny thing is, I don't believe I behave like that with an iron in my hand.....but, then again.........
It's a case of feel versus real. Real wins every time.
Will keep you posted on my progress, may even slip another video in, for amusement purposes only you understand. I don't think many people will learn from these vids, but it shows how important it is to actually be able to see what's going on rather than just 'feeling' it.
All the best,

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Slime said:



			I know I overswing a tad, I just didn't realise that a tad was so big!
And my legs................what the hell is that all about? A lot to work on methinks.
		
Click to expand...

The overswing (left elbow bending) and the head moving around will fix itself somewhat if you can make your lower half more stable. The bottom swing looks great... especially for someone your age


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## Slime (Feb 2, 2012)

JustOne said:



			especially for someone your age 

Click to expand...




* *


*Slime*.


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## G1BB0 (Feb 2, 2012)

just something I noticed although I am not of suitable ability to critique...

you may be a touch too far away or too upright as it looks like you are holding the driver a few inches too far in front (your arms appear to outstetched as opposed to hanging vertically) in vid 1 btw

apols if I am talking crap lol


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## G1BB0 (Feb 2, 2012)

here's one of my old swings just so you can rip me apart all being equal 
(its not s&t either)
[video=youtube;2xIX87XGZTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xIX87XGZTc[/video] side on

[video=youtube;bma89ph0Ydg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bma89ph0Ydg[/video] DTL (look how wide that swing is haha)


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## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2012)

S&T typically has a distinct deep left shoulder turn, with the head looking quite down (typically face hidden from view if wearing a baseball cap). Your shoulders are much more level than I would expect and your head (well chin) is higher than expected too.

Not sure when that should be addressed in relation to JO's drill. He's in a better 'position' to comment - or even contradict me.


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Mr Gibbs - that's the straightest left arm I've ever seen in golf! :thup: ... do you iron it? 


Where's your latest swings?


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## G1BB0 (Feb 2, 2012)

I am gonna get my daughter to record a view hopefully at the weekend. Will be on crappy iphone tho, wish I could afford a decent high speed camera


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## JustOne (Feb 2, 2012)

Wish I could afford an iPhone! :mmm:


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## G1BB0 (Feb 2, 2012)

will swap for your h/c


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## One Planer (Feb 3, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Mr Gibbs - that's the straightest left arm I've ever seen in golf! :thup: ... do you iron it? 

Click to expand...

:rofl: Classic line!!

Well, another range session complete and one happy golfer am I 

As per James' advice, I moved the ball back to mid stance for irons 6-9 and a ball forward for a 5 iron. I cannot stress how much better this felt.

Much better, more consistant right to left flight with the above irons. Strangely the contact felt more solid than usual......... And I have proof 

6 Iron:






7 Iron:






8 Iron:






9 Iron:






I think I may be standing a little too far from the ball with the 9 iron?

Stats for tonight.

Same as Tuesday. Irons 5-9 hit with slightly open face. Tonights session was 60 balls hit (After 10 ball loosener). All balls moved back in stance (6-9 mid. 5 iron a ball forward of centre)

Start + Flight (curve)

Left + Left: 6
Left + Straight: 1
Left + Right: 0 

Straight + Left: 7
Straight + Straight: 2
Straight + Right: 2

Right + Left: 27
Right + Straight: 12
Right + Right: 3

All in all very happy :thup:


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## G1BB0 (Feb 3, 2012)

way to go Gareth, glad its all coming together


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## Monty_Brown (Feb 3, 2012)

I get a lot of my S&T info from US sites, as there's not so much over here. Just saw this thread about what you might call S&T 2.0...

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

*5 simple keys*

steady head
weight forward
flat left wrist
sweespot path
clubface control.

An interesting read. Different approach to coaching overall as well.


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## JustOne (Feb 4, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			I get a lot of my S&T info from US sites, as there's not so much over here. Just saw this thread about what you might call S&T 2.0...

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

*5 simple keys*

steady head
weight forward
flat left wrist
sweespot path
clubface control.

An interesting read. Different approach to coaching overall as well.
		
Click to expand...

Yeh I read that and it's basically some (top and apparently trusted) S&T instructors who want to do the 'Foley thing' and try to monetise their teaching via DVD and calling it their own method.

I can't blame them (even though I want to) as Plummer/Bennett have been so slow/poor at communicating with the public pertaining to questions. 4 years since S&T broke in the USA and how many instructors are there in the UK?... about 5.

They should have been teaching fleets of instructors for FREE but instead they sat back and let the world discuss it without hardly making a peep. I think those instructors are getting tired of taking the flack (I can relate to THAT feeling!) 

That said to package it as something new *is* quite naughty and they've even had to resort already to saying things such as....




			when I was asked to put together content for a DVD it seemed daunting. I guess it became simpler when I considered *all I had to do was explain what we already did on a daily basis*. I could take what I had learned from so many different sources and other instructors (nothing is ever really "ours"...just borrowed ) and share it with anyone interested. This system is, for the most part, a process we have used at Golf Evolution since we opened the academy *and now it has a "name"...*it's fun, to say the least , to see the DVD, etc. becoming a reality.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and *that name is Stack and Tilt* remember? ....the stuff you already did on a daily basis?? HELLO!!!

and (when talking about someone else who teaches)......




			Grant officially teaches a centered pivot, push draw pattern where the rear knee straightens, left flexes, on the backswing so the shoulders and hips can turn on an incline plane allowing the arms to swing inward and from there the hips slide forward and the butt tucks into the followthrough. His information is based off an understanding of biomechanics, geometry and physics. 
	
	
		
		
	


	



*Same information maybe in a different teaching style*.
		
Click to expand...

Yes... you mean Stack and tilt right?.. you know.. the thing you've been TEACHING for 4 years!




Actually I don't really care a great deal, Yes I think it's a shitty move by them but it'll just put stack and tilt out to even more people under a different name... so more golfers will benefit in the long run if it becomes at all sucessful.

It might well turn out to be a win/win situation.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2012)

Latest range session.
As my lesson didn't occur, I had a few balls on the range.
I hit a few with my irons (good), hybrid & 4 wood (acceptable), before moving on to my driver.
Started of as total gash, had a smoke & re-evaluated.
Started working on my hip turn, (thanks *justone*) and I also stood slightly closer to the ball at address, (thanks here to *GIBB0*), so my arms felt more relaxed & I didn't feel like I had to reach out to hit the ball.
Well, what a difference, I suddenly started hitting them quite a bit straighter, albeit not very far.
I can't stress how close I FELT I was standing to the ball, it was just wierd, but the results have given my quite a lot of encouragement & I'll definitely persist.
I've still got a long way to go but I feel that I'm heading in the right direction.
I'm working to a tighter deadline now. 
I've just been invited to a game at Bearwood Lakes in late March! I hear it's a pretty good course, any tips fellas?
All the best & thanks again to *justone* & *GIBB0*,

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Feb 19, 2012)

Some S&T elements

No weight shift back
Head still
Hands forward at impact
Descending blow
Narrow stance
Hold off release (no wrist rolling)

[video=youtube;4LDvfhAZe4I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDvfhAZe4I[/video]


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## Monty_Brown (Feb 21, 2012)

Just giving this a bounce as I wanted to make my 1,000th post among fellow pariahs... sorry, friends! :whoo:

Not been out on the course much recently, but a few range sessions and plenty of practice swings have allowed me to swing without thinking too much about moves and positions. For me that's the best way to take it to the course... just thinking about rhythm, not technical stuff.

An S&T purist would look at my swing now and say I'm not hitting all the key positions.. but at present I'm ok with that.

What I have got from S&T so far: hugely improved consistency in ball striking, no fats, much better understanding of the golf swing in general (of whatever type), ability to hit a proper draw, increased distance.

My worst performance is 34 stableford points, so consistency if also there.

Will I try to become a "pure" S&T player... not sure, but I do know how much the book and theories have helped me evolve my swing.

Can't wait to take the new swing to the course to collect some silverware. 

Thanks all for your thoughts, advice and encoragement so far, especially James, Chief Pariah. :thup:


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## big_russ (Feb 21, 2012)

Just booked myself and child in for a split lesson on Sunday with Darren Hopwood. This will be the lads first S&T lesson and he is really looking forward to it. DH says its the best thing I could do by getting him into S&T at a young age (12).
I have also booked in for a 4 hour group S&T session at the local range. Closed range, balls included, video analysis and flightscope all for Â£50. No more than 6 people.

Anyone wanting to have their swing checked over by an authorised S&T instructor check out Hopwood Golf .co.uk as there are details of online video swing assessments.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2012)

DH says its the best thing I could do by getting him into S&T at a young age (12).
		
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I'll bet he did...at Â£75 an hour


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## JustOne (Feb 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I'll bet he did...at Â£75 an hour

Click to expand...

It's unusual for you to make a snidey comment on a S&T thread Bobmac.. oh,... no... hang on..... 

It costs good money to learn a proper swing :ears:


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## Monty_Brown (Feb 22, 2012)

JustOne said:



			It's unusual for you to make a snidey comment on a S&T thread Bobmac.. oh,... no... hang on..... 

It costs good money to learn a proper swing :ears:
		
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He can't hear you! Or can he........


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## big_russ (Feb 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I'll bet he did...at Â£75 an hour

Click to expand...

So tell me Bob. Where does the Â£75 an hour come from. 

Nothing but the best for my lad. Coach and swing pattern that is.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2012)

big_russ said:



			So tell me Bob. Where does the Â£75 an hour come from. 

Nothing but the best for my lad. Coach and swing pattern that is.
		
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6 people paying Â£50 
Â£300 divided by 4 hours
Â£75 per hour

Just checked his website and it's Â£40 per hour.
Apologies


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## big_russ (Feb 22, 2012)

bobmac said:



			6 people paying Â£50 
Â£300 divided by 4 hours
Â£75 per hour

Just checked his website and it's Â£40 per hour.
Apologies
		
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No apology necessary Bob I just wandered where you came up with that figure. 

I know S&T is not your thing but it has proven to be very beneficial to me and if it works for the lad the same then it will be a price worth paying.


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## One Planer (Feb 22, 2012)

Mini-Update:

Went to the range tonight, Tried to video my swing, however the wind blew my phone off the stand and has done something to the memory and corrupted the video (..... and others on the device) so I'm a little bit miffed.

I've managed to recover certain frames and was hoping someone could check my positions:

Address:






Top:






I think, no, I know I'm loading too much weight onto my left at address. Not sure if you can see in the address picture but my right leg has very little flex.

Any thoughts, good and bad, always welcome :thup:


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2012)

Another range session.
Not much to report really................................same old, same old.
Irons were good, wedges were really good, long irons very acceptable, hybrid was reasonable, 4 wood was gorgeous, driver was gash....................total rubbish.
Stood closer to the ball, further from the ball, ball further forward in my stance, ball further back.....no good.
I'm going to have to get another swing vid done..................feel vs real. I feel as though my hip turn is okay & my backswing feels shorter but I still have no control over where the ball goes.
Low left, high right, straight tops & some were even popped almost vertically & went about 130yds, but at least they went straight!
I'm getting bored constantly reporting my driver woes so I'll probably not waste your time until I have something different to report, maybe a little bit of cheer, who knows?
I'm starting to wonder whether or not my driver shaft is too long for me. I've got a free flightscope fitting arranged with a guy from Tour Edge, to try their Exotics & Bazooka bats........but that's another thread!
I'm a stubborn sod so I'm going to give my driver the S&T treatment for a while yet, my irons have got it on a permanent basis though.
All the best,

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Feb 24, 2012)

Slime.

I found this series of blogs, especially #4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3dIo0bC6Y&list=FLjLmlOfygR2_BlFieBqGDeQ&index=8&feature=plpp_video

Let me know if this helps :thup:


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## JustOne (Feb 26, 2012)

Slime said:



			Irons were good, wedges were really good, long irons very acceptable, hybrid was reasonable, 4 wood was gorgeous, driver was gash....................total rubbish.
		
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We'll meet up soon and see if we can't get that fixed for you :thup:


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## One Planer (Feb 26, 2012)

Managed to recover my swing vid from the other night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAn55oT9AYg

I know the light isn't the best, so the picture below (Yellow line) shows roughly the location of the target green I was trying to hit.






. 

I did actually slip which is why I have a bit of a wobble at finish........ It was raining..... so sue me


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## One Planer (Mar 14, 2012)

Aside from giving this thread a gentle bump (  ) I have a question.

I'm slowly intergrating more aspects of S&T into my swing. The latest part I've added is the hands forward at address and through the swing.

Went to the range with it last night and the effect was immediate. My ball flight started off much lower but gradually gained height, and if anything, flew a little higher than my previos strikes.

My question is this.

With my hands being, if you like, pressed slightly more forward than usual. Is the effectivley delofting the club face?

If so

Why am I getting a better, higher, ball flight (Ball starts low and gradually gains height)??

To get an idea of what I mean, look at this video of Mike Bennett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLjwU_1Cc7o&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLAE92CA72C4295CB2

If you pause it at 00.00 before he makes a swing, note how far forward his hands are at address.

Mine are not this far forward, but you see my point.

James/Monty Please feel free to confuse me


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 14, 2012)

Funny you should mention the forward hand position as I had a bit of a similar discovery towards the end of my round at the weekend. My ball flight has been getting higher, too high in fact, off the tee. It was nice and straight but it did feel as though I was losing distance through the ball ballooning.

Last few holes I remembered the hand press at address and it did help to produce a lower more penetrating flight.


I suppose the key point is that yes it delofts the club at address, but that's only significant if it affects the way the clubhead meets the ball. If you "throw away" that hand position by hanging back and throwing the hands at impact, you'll not get the benefit. 

The flight you're getting sounds good... probably a combo of better face angle and angle of attack. 

Without seeing the swing, I'd guess that the soaring flight is coming from either a delofted club face or flatter launch angle. The soaring effect is coming from the amount of spin you are putting on the ball. It may be you have created a steeper angle of attack (could be a + or - angle remember).

James loves all that angle of attack gubbins so will explain more effectively than me.

Any way I've forgotten the original question, so i'll stop rambling!


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## One Planer (Mar 14, 2012)

To be honest Monty, I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. It never occured to me to consider increased spin on the ball. 

I was more concerned about the de-lofting aspect at address that spin never occured to me.

Muchos Kudos :thup:


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 14, 2012)

Have a read of BTatHome's AG fitting thread on the main forum. He describes very well how the ball and hand position altered the flight... sort of confirms (with benefit of Trackman) what I was trying to describe. :thup:


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## One Planer (Mar 14, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Have a read of BTatHome's AG fitting thread on the main forum. He describes very well how the ball and hand position altered the flight... sort of confirms (with benefit of Trackman) what I was trying to describe. :thup:
		
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I've just been reading it (Great minds and all that :cheers: )


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## JustOne (Mar 14, 2012)

Gareth said:



			If so

Why am I getting a better, higher, ball flight (Ball starts low and gradually gains height)??
		
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*Normally* it's because you hit the ball harder, with your weight moving forward.

Hitting down doesn't (on it's own) increase spin.

The spin doesn't change unless you maintain the loft whilst increasing the angle of descent.

If you have a face angle of 20Â° and hit down at -5Â° you have *25Â°* of effective spin
If you have a face angle of 15Â° and hit down at -10Â° you have *25Â°* of effective spin - the same!

It's only when you maintain the 20Â° AND ALSO hit down at -10Â° that you get more spin that way... eg 30Â° in that example. Keep the 20Â° and hit down at -15Â° and you now have 35Â° effective spin angle.

You'd need trackman to tell you what's actually happening on a case by case basis although your divots will tend to show you if you get TOO steep


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## One Planer (Mar 18, 2012)

Update:

As per my previous post, I'm working on getting my hands further forward, both at address and at impact, as to try and introduce so lag into my swing. Had a spare 5 minutes today so went to the course to try and video my current swing.

..... And here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfoamgEvz04

Here's my breakdown of what I'm trying to do.

Address:







My hands used to be central, I'm working on moving them forward at address so they are more towards my left thigh.

Half way back:







Making sure my left shoulder is turning down whilst my right leg begins to straighten.

At the top:







Making sure my weight has continued onto my left side (60-40 approx)

Half way down:







Making sure my hip centre has moved in front of the ball, while keeping my shoulder centre in place (Still need work here)

Impact:







Inconclusive here because my camera isn't fast enough to see where my hands are in relation to the ball and shaft at impact. I feel like they are in front but the difference between feel and real as we all know is quite different. I've made a ball first contact. As you can see the ball is airbourne and the divot and the divot is just coming out of the turf  

Just after impact:







This is where I struggle. My hands, to me, look as though I've played a punch shot. Is this an indication of added lag in my swing 

Half way through follow through:







This is something I've always done and is part of the S&T pattern. I keep my arms straight through impact and right through my follow through. My wrists do not roll until they are roughly level with my face, see below







Finish:







Not the shortened finish Plummer and Bennett prescribe, but that is next on my list to work on. I'm adding more aspects of the pattern to my swing as the previous additions become more ingrained.

I feel the S&T pattern really suits me. As with my thread posted yesterday, I shot my personal best yesterday playing to an 8 handicap. Not low by the standards of some of the chaps on here, but for me it was an eye opener. 

I've already completed 2 of my "seasons goals" already (A blob free card and shooting a single figure H/C score).

Any comments on the above, as always, greatly appreciated :thup:


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## Slime (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi *Gareth*,
I'm trying to adopt S&T, and it's going okay until I pull out my driver.
Your swing looks pretty good mate, you must be very pleased, but, I find S&T reasonably straightforward with irons................my question is..............how are you getting on with your driver?
I've been away, so haven't practiced recently, but I've got a game lined up for next week.
How long were you learning S&T before you took it to the course?
I too play off 18 but haven't taken it to the course yet, except one fun game with 18 temp greens, so I'm not sure whether or not my new swing will do me justice next week. I'm actually playing at Bearwood Lakes so don't want to waste my day!
Looking good *Gareth*,

*Slime*.


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## Slicer30 (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi gareth,

been following this thread with interest.  The swing is coming along nicely.

I notice your left side moves forward during the takeaway/backswing.  (see the tree by your left hip - compare the address and halfway back pics).  In the second pic the tree trunk is no longer visible and your left knee has moved to the target.

Is that a S+T move?


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## Slicer30 (Mar 18, 2012)

Also -when you have your post open and hit "Page Down" key multiple times it creates a little animation of your swing!


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## One Planer (Mar 18, 2012)

Slime said:



			Hi *Gareth*,
I'm trying to adopt S&T, and it's going okay until I pull out my driver.
Your swing looks pretty good mate, you must be very pleased, but, I find S&T reasonably straightforward with irons................my question is..............how are you getting on with your driver?
I've been away, so haven't practiced recently, but I've got a game lined up for next week.
How long were you learning S&T before you took it to the course?
I too play off 18 but haven't taken it to the course yet, except one fun game with 18 temp greens, so I'm not sure whether or not my new swing will do me justice next week. I'm actually playing at Bearwood Lakes so don't want to waste my day!
Looking good *Gareth*,

*Slime*.
		
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Slime. 

I've always had a centred swingso for me switching to S&T was probably easier than someone coming from a more traditional swing.

I pretty much took it out on the course in pieces. The way I see it is that I play this game for fun, a hobby of you will, so I want to enjoy it. No longer hitting it fat and being able to play to a reasonable level does that for me so I'm happy.

The driver is still a work in progress. I no longer have a booming left to right slice but had developed a push fade which sometimes got me into more trouble. Like I said I'm trying to add some lag to my swing which has helped me hit it straight more often although there is a noticable loss in distance ATM probably because I'm trying to groove the feeling and I'm resisting the urge to club the skin off it.

Keep at it fella. It will come :thup:


Slicer30 said:



			Hi gareth,

been following this thread with interest.  The swing is coming along nicely.

I notice your left side moves forward during the takeaway/backswing.  (see the tree by your left hip - compare the address and halfway back pics).  In the second pic the tree trunk is no longer visible and your left knee has moved to the target.

Is that a S+T move?
		
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S30.

The camera angle isn't the best I'm afraid ( I had to rest it on the floor on my range shoes  ) so that hasn't done any favors I'm afraid.

The left knee bends forward on the back swing at the right leg begins to straighten. More weight transfers onto my left side through the back swing (to about a 60-40 ratio at the top). 

I do move slightly towards the target yes, but the weight never moves back to the right side at any time (reverse pivot). If you look at the picture below (Halfway down) you can see my left knee starts to move outside of left ankle as I slide my hip forward and around, transferring more weight onto my left and shifting my lower (hip) centre forward.


My swing is very much still a work in progress, but it's getting there.

If you have any more questions, feel free to fire away or PM me :thup:


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## GuitarRich (Mar 18, 2012)

Been reading this thread with interest over the last week - I got the book and after reading had my first go on the range today and what a dramatic difference! I wasn't expecting it to be quite so instant with the results, but I can honestly say I've never struck the ball quite so cleanly.

My normal bad shot - or should I say normal shot is a big slice to the right, with the occasional push fade. But today most were straight or a slight draw. Not quite so successful with the driver. But it has encouraged me to keep at the S&T method - thanks for introducing it to me!


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## Slime (Mar 18, 2012)

GuitarRich said:



			Been reading this thread with interest over the last week - I got the book and after reading had my first go on the range today and what a dramatic difference! I wasn't expecting it to be quite so instant with the results, but I can honestly say I've never struck the ball quite so cleanly.

My normal bad shot - or should I say normal shot is a big slice to the right, with the occasional push fade. But today most were straight or a slight draw. Not quite so successful with the driver. But it has encouraged me to keep at the S&T method - thanks for introducing it to me!
		
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Glad to hear it fella, I'm also struggling with the driver but my iron shots have never been so crisp! (Albeit only at the range).
Keep us updated and stick with it. 
For me it's brought a lot of hope & excitement back to the game and I'm actually taking it to the course next week.
Will let you know how I get on with it. To be honest, I'm not expecting a great score as I've not played a proper round for a few months, but, if it gives me a few good shots & some promise of a good summer, I'll be buzzing.

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Mar 18, 2012)

Slime said:



			Glad to hear it fella, I'm also struggling with the driver but my iron shots have never been so crisp! (Albeit only at the range).
Keep us updated and stick with it. 
For me it's brought a lot of hope & excitement back to the game and I'm actually taking it to the course next week.
Will let you know how I get on with it. To be honest, I'm not expecting a great score as I've not played a proper round for a few months, but, if it gives me a few good shots & some promise of a good summer, I'll be buzzing.

*Slime*.
		
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You'll be surprised how well you do. Remember the course is plenty different to the range.

I go to the range once a week to work on something specific, never just to hit balls. That's the only time I'll hit 6 iron after 6 iron after 6 iron....... You get the idea. 

Get out on the course with it and see how you score. That's the real test for you fella.


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## GuitarRich (Mar 18, 2012)

I am really looking forward to my next round, easing myself in gently tho as just has 3 months off due to back operation. Today was 2nd range visit since - the 1st didn't go so well, although my slice was very consistent .

I think a couple more visits to the range and I'll head to a course full of optimism. Probably come back wanting to drink heavy, but that's what makes this a good game!


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

GuitarRich said:



			I am really looking forward to my next round, easing myself in gently tho as just has 3 months off due to back operation. Today was 2nd range visit since - the 1st didn't go so well, although my slice was very consistent .

I think a couple more visits to the range and I'll head to a course full of optimism. Probably come back wanting to drink heavy, but that's what makes this a good game!
		
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It's like I said to Slime. When your back feels up to it, get yourself out on the course and see how you go. What's the absolute worse that could happen?


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## JustOne (Mar 19, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Just after impact:







This is where I struggle. My hands, to me, look as though I've played a punch shot. Is this an indication of added lag in my swing 

Click to expand...


[video=youtube;JdU6_tEAwbs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdU6_tEAwbs[/video]


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

Nice video James, Illustrates what I'm "trying" to accomplish really well.

Quick question. What is a flying wedge? I hear it banded about quite often and assume it's something to do with the hands at, or just after imapct?


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## JustOne (Mar 19, 2012)

Keep the hands moving forwards so the clubhead doesn't pass the hands until late in the upswing, if at all.... if your rotation stops the clubhead will flip shut and you'll hit low hooks.

If you watch the vid at precisely 1.02 you can see the clubhead still hasn't passed his hands, the left wrist remains flat and the right wrist still has some of it's 'lag angle', it hasn't rolled or crossed over the left at all.


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Keep the hands moving forwards so the clubhead doesn't pass the hands until late in the upswing, if at all.... if your rotation stops the clubhead will flip shut and you'll hit low hooks.

If you watch the vid at precisely 1.02 you can see the clubhead still hasn't passed his hands, the left wrist remains flat and the right wrist still has some of it's 'lag angle', it hasn't rolled or crossed over the left at all.
		
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Thanks James, again that's helpful to know.

I'll keep at it until I feel it becomes natural.


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## shewy (Mar 19, 2012)

I'll be first to admit I'm way to lazy to read all this thread but it does interest me.
Basically I'm left handed but play right handed,I'm also left footed and struggle with weight transfer.
My shots are a very high trajectory and I'm pretty sure it's due to flicky wrists..
I'm pretty sure I'm leaving a lot of distance out there as well,my 7i only goes 140yards..
Would this swing suit me being so left sided?
Are there any teachers in South Wales which teach this? Just to satisfy my curiosity


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## GuitarRich (Mar 19, 2012)

Gareth said:



			It's like I said to Slime. When your back feels up to it, get yourself out on the course and see how you go. What's the absolute worse that could happen?
		
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I hear ya - will be on the course as soon as I can get enough time! Back is fine now, just not had time to get out on the course. Hope to be joining a club soon so I'll be able to play more often. Jobs killing me right now - can't wait for the lighter evenings.


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

shewy said:



			I'll be first to admit I'm way to lazy to read all this thread but it does interest me.
Basically I'm left handed but play right handed,I'm also left footed and struggle with weight transfer.
My shots are a very high trajectory and I'm pretty sure it's due to flicky wrists..
I'm pretty sure I'm leaving a lot of distance out there as well,my 7i only goes 140yards..
Would this swing suit me being so left sided?
Are there any teachers in South Wales which teach this? Just to satisfy my curiosity
		
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I "think" this was covered earlier in the thread but not sure where abouts 

As for teachers, they are very few and far between I'm afraid. Again, I think a list was posted of them somewhere on the thread.


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 19, 2012)

Gareth, that's looking good buddy. The release, or lack of it suits the S&T pattern, as per the flying wedge video James has posted.

I am still unlearning old habits that I've acquired through 20 years of the classic wrist cock/ release swing. If you look at my newish swing video below, my hands are more active through the release area, which means I have to guard against the hooks that James mentions.

Since I shot this clip a couple of weeks ago, I have worked on more of a set-forward hands position at address, and it is helping. In this clip you can see the clubhead creeping in front of the hands at address, which is an old habit.

Foot flare is better here though.

All in all though the patten is really settling in. Last 3 rounds are 74, 76, 76 gross so playing well under my handicap, with a few qualifiers coming up 

Any way here's the latest video. One of these days I'll manage to set the camera up level as it pokes out the pocket on my golf bag!

[video=youtube;-2baOCOOBeg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2baOCOOBeg&feature=youtube_gdata[/video]


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

I am still unlearning old habits that I've acquired through 20 years of the classic wrist cock/ release swing. If you look at my newish swing video below, my hands are more active through the release area, which means I have to guard against the hooks that James mentions.
		
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This is where I probably have a slight head start with only taking up the game in 2010, I have less "old habbits" to try and break or unlearn.




			Since I shot this clip a couple of weeks ago, I have worked on more of a set-forward hands position at address, and it is helping. In this clip you can see the clubhead creeping in front of the hands at address, which is an old habit.
		
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What I have found that helps me is I have intergrated a slight forward push into my set-up. Nothing drastic, but it ensures my hands are forward at address.

I set-up pretty much as I used to, then press my hands slightly forward so they are closer to my left thigh, then begin the swing. Seems to be working just fine at the minute as I find it easier to maintain the lag through the swing.

In that video (the one I posted), although the wedge is slightly de-lofted due to the forward press, the ball actually flies higher and longer than how I used to hit it. I think James hit the nail on the head when talking about spin angles. Perhaps hitting with more lag is increasing my angle into the ball and in turn increasing spin, who knows 

With the longer clubs, the forward press is less pronounced as the ball is further forward in my stance.




			Any way here's the latest video. One of these days I'll manage to set the camera up level as it pokes out the pocket on my golf bag!
		
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I had to balance my phone on my range shoes, talk about improvisation 

Your scoring looks nice and consistant too. Looks like you'll be getting a cut soon :thup:


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## JustOne (Mar 19, 2012)

The biggest issue I see with S&T'ers is that they neglect the right side. Seeing as they are trying to keep everything left... and sliding, they don't turn the right hip though properly or the right shoulder (which drops back and down rather than rotating).. what then happens is they get to a position where they are stuck and the body stops rotating.. the hands then take over and the club tries to flip closed... hitting the ball low unless they really hold off the clubface.

Normally the set up is nice, good forward flex at address and nice left shoulder down in the backswing but this often comes with the left shoulder then lifting on the downswing rather than the right shoulder turning back down towards the ball. It's important to understand that the distance from your right shoulder and left hip at address (diagonal across your body) and the angle it is at address (relative to the ground) needs to return back to where is was at address on the downswing.. the right side can't just lag behind else you'll block or hook everything... the swing has to keep turning, the right hip has to come through and tuck, and the hands have to keep moving.


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

JustOne said:



			The biggest issue I see with S&T'ers is that they neglect the right side. Seeing as they are trying to keep everything left... and sliding, they don't turn the right hip though properly or the right shoulder (which drops back and down rather than rotating).. what then happens is they get to a position where they are stuck and the body stops rotating.. the hands then take over and the club tries to flip closed... hitting the ball low unless they really hold off the clubface.

Normally the set up is nice, good forward flex at address and nice left shoulder down in the backswing but this often comes with the left shoulder then lifting on the downswing rather than the right shoulder turning back down towards the ball. It's important to understand that the distance from your right shoulder and left hip at address (diagonal across your body) and the angle it is at address (relative to the ground) needs to return back to where is was at address on the downswing.. the right side can't just lag behind else you'll block or hook everything... the swing has to keep turning, the right hip has to come through and tuck, and the hands have to keep moving.
		
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Interesting point you make there James.

As a check point for turning the hips correctly. Where should the belt buckle point at impact? Is there even a correct position?


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## JustOne (Mar 19, 2012)

Gareth said:



			As a check point for turning the hips correctly. Where should the belt buckle point at impact? Is there even a correct position?
		
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Open


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## garyinderry (Mar 19, 2012)

hitting this draw with an open club face has floored me


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## One Planer (Mar 19, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			hitting this draw with an open club face has floored me 

Click to expand...

How so?


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## garyinderry (Mar 19, 2012)

because i can hook a ball with a closed face but this is news to me that i can hit a draw with an open face. im going to look into this stack and tilt as i natualy straighten my right leg out on the backswing. i cant keep it flexed with a gun to my head. this could be the way forward.


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## One Planer (Mar 20, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			because i can hook a ball with a closed face but this is news to me that i can hit a draw with an open face. im going to look into this stack and tilt as i natualy straighten my right leg out on the backswing. i cant keep it flexed with a gun to my head. this could be the way forward.
		
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I take it you didn't read the ball flight law thread


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## garyinderry (Mar 20, 2012)

that thread was causing a stirr just as i arrived here. i didnt know what the fuss was about. since ive made my way through this thread i may as well have a go at that one.


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## One Planer (Mar 20, 2012)

garyinderry said:



			that thread was causing a stirr just as i arrived here. i didnt know what the fuss was about. since ive made my way through this thread i may as well have a go at that one.
		
Click to expand...

Definatley worth a read Gary. 

Opend my eyes to what were my bad shots and gave me some insight into how to fix them.


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## One Planer (Mar 20, 2012)

Yet another update (...... I know, I know)

Right. This is something I've been putting off, and off, and off so tonight I finally decided to bite the bullet and start work on trying to hit my driver to a better level than I currently do.

I've been watched plenty of videos on YouTube of S&T's poster boy Charlie Wi and the positions he hits through out his swing.

Specifically:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSgy5A7xlqs&list=FLjLmlOfygR2_BlFieBqGDeQ&index=4&feature=plpp_video

The one thing I notice about his swing how quiet his hands are through the swing. This is where I've felt I've been going wrong for sometime.

My wrists have been hinging too soon on the back swing, and releasing through the downswing towards impact and subsequently cutting across the ball causing my heavy fade, bordering on a slice.

Tonight I carried on with what I've been working on with my irons (hitting with more lag) and mad a mental effort not to hinge my wrists too early in the backswing and on my way down into the ball trying to keep my hands ahead at impact.

First few strikes much better but now instead of a "Bubba'esque" curve just a gentle curve (probably 5-10 yards) missing my target by about that margin to the right. 

OK

Moved the ball back fractionally (Previous position just inside my left heel) only about a ball width or so. The difference was immediate, ball flew lovely and straight , suspecting it to be a one off, tee'd up another, went through the same set-up, swung, straight.

At out range there are little "greens" at the different distance markers. The green I was using as a maker was at 175 yards. My drives were carrying this to about, best guess of 190 average. 

Here's the thing. My drives used to be very high, not exactly balooning but high with very little roll. Tonight, my drives were noticabley lower, much more penetrating and I was getting noticabley more roll. The last "green" is at 200 yards, with the back fence at 250 (I know the fence is 250 as the distance signs are hanging off it  ) my drives were rolling a good 15-20  yards (best guess) on uncut, wet range grass and most were rolling just past the green at 200 to about 210-215 as an average. I did manage to hit 2 that rolled to the fence... Only just mind.

This is not long by forum standards but I honestly don't care. I'm happy that I can finally hit the bleeding thing straight. Out of a range bucket of 50 balls I hit 3 slices and only 1 hook and about 5 or 6 deffs and/or tops. The rest were a mix of mainly straight, a few gentle fade and even the odd draw but were within the general area of where I was aiming.

Checked the driver face after and..... 







I know it's not the best, but the ball strikes are predominantly around the middle of the face, rather than to, heel, top, bottom, basically anywhere except the middle of the face that I've been used to 

Over all, very happy with my first attempts to apply the swing to the driver. Still plenty of work to do to try and get the consistancy that I crave but the early signs are good :thup:

Oh, one more thing, before I forget.

Remember a different post by myself a while back about hitting my nine iron slightly out of the toe?








Turns out I just needed a little more lag :thup:


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## shewy (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm glad it's working out for those who try it,for what it's worth I gave it a wee bash tonight and got to admit it's not for me.
My bad shot is a hook and this just screamed hook at me,I think it would take all winter to groove this in and I'm just not going down a swing change route again. I did however find an extra few yards with it.
Good luck with it guys.


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## chris661 (Mar 21, 2012)

Well I am finished with it again! Fed up of destructive hooks or stupid blocks! Good luck to the rest of you all giving it a go and I hope it works out for you now anyone want to buy the DVD's and book


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## One Planer (Mar 21, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Well I am finished with it again! Fed up of destructive hooks or stupid blocks! Good luck to the rest of you all giving it a go and I hope it works out for you now anyone want to buy the DVD's and book  

Click to expand...

PM in progress


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## JustOne (Mar 21, 2012)

chris661 said:



			Well I am finished with it again! Fed up of destructive hooks or stupid blocks! Good luck to the rest of you all giving it a go and I hope it works out for you now anyone want to buy the DVD's and book  

Click to expand...

If you don't rotate properly with *ANY* swing you'll hook it (or block it). With S&T the protagonists (that's you and me) spend too much time worrying about the lateral shift that the right side gets ignored.. hangs back and that's when you start hooking (swing becomes all arms when the right hip stops turning).... and blocking (right shoulder stuck back behind you) - simples 

You should *turn* your right hip through and your right shoulder DOWN to the ball on the throughswing... and Bingo!


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## chris661 (Mar 22, 2012)

The biggest problem I (or anyone else) have is there are no damned instructors. Why? I like having someone there to cast an eye over me and help me out there is only so much I can do from books and DVDs on my own.


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## JustOne (Mar 22, 2012)

chris661 said:



			The biggest problem I (or anyone else) have is there are no damned instructors. Why? I like having someone there to cast an eye over me and help me out there is only so much I can do from books and DVDs on my own.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree I also think that it's similar for all instruction unless you're really working with a top pro and put the required hours of practice in.

Once you get good at the game there's only so much a local pro can give you in terms of coaching - the ballflight determines the 'tip' that you get and you're pretty much limited to whatever swing the pro sees fit to teach. He might set you up in a reverse K, maybe over the ball or maybe erring on loading up the right side... you're still going to have to learn whatever process he decides to teach you.

For me S&T (or certainly the principles) are something that you can work on by yourself IF you can be bothered to take some decent video of your swing, there are positions that you should be looking for and there's a lot of information available on the web. Knowing what causes certain 'misses' is important no matter what swing you're using (are you going to go running to your pro every time you miss hit a ball?) 

Hitting the ball is all about timing and a 'centered swing' is certainly easier to time.. once you agree with that you then have to realise that in order to make a centered swing you need to turn your shoulders in a circle over the ball (there's no other way)... and that's when you get into S&T territory!

Even if your swing isn't 100% S&T you should have a solid base to build a swing on, even without a ton of practice you can keep some remnance of a swing together as it's a compact swing with no swaying about.


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 23, 2012)

I ended up sitting next to my club pro at a golf society event yesterday and we had an interesting conversation. I had a few lessons off him last year which did get me to a certain point while I came back to the game, so I respect him as a teacher.

He'd heard I've been working on S&T, and was open to having a good chat about it. It was good to hear that he didn't simply reject S&T, and agreed that a lot of the principles could be useful for golfers. In fact one of the asssistant pros in the shop has switched to S&T so they are discussing and debating the merits of the technique.

He also told me that another local pro, Matt Belsham at Whitehills in Herts is teaching it, so I may check out what he's doing. He has a big reputation locally any way.

No particualr point to this post other than to note that the idea that the whole PGA is hellbent on destriying and rejecting S&T is not true.. there are, as in any walk of life, some pros who are more open minded than others.


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## One Planer (Mar 23, 2012)

Quick question regarding hand positon and shaft lean.

Previously I mentioned I've started keeping my hands more forward at address (Just inside my left thigh) as prescribed as part of the pattern to try and add  more lag into my swing. See below:







As opposed to my previos set up:







My question is this.

Does the hand position (Just inside left thigh) remain constant regardless of club?

Giving plenty of shaft lean with wedges (See 1st picture), with the shaft lean getting progressivley less and less as the length of the shaft (.. and subsequent ball position changes) increases?


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## One Planer (Mar 23, 2012)

Never mind. I think YouTube provided the answer 


Mike Weir: 

Wedge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSSqA8mNafc

Driver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZR30JKPTo


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## Jay1 (Mar 23, 2012)

Well I'm new to this forum, and have to say very new to the idea of S&T. I used to read a lot about the swing and everything golf, but since moving and not being able to afford club membership I've played very little over the last 3 years. I am now starting to really get back in to it and want to get back to single figures again (used to play of 8, currently about 11).

I stumbled across this thread and after hearing S&T mentioned on TV recently thought I'd have a read. I've now read the whole thread and watched a load of youtube videos and read other bits and pieces.

Certain parts of S&T theroy have really struck a chord with me. I've always had a fair bit of lateral hip movement toward the target on the downswing naturally, which has resulted in me always having an in to out swing path, and a draw. However, occasionaly it could be destructive, with the odd big block, hook, fat shot and even S***k. Also, I don't have a massive amount of wrist cock in my swing. Reading the theory behind S&T covered in this thread got me thinking that it seems to suit my swing, and that by elliminating some of the lateral movement on the way back, should get my ball striking back, and lessen the risks of my disaster shots due to less moving parts.

Since starting playing more regularly again I've notice my ball stiking and hence distance control haven't been what they were. These used to be real strengths of my game. I've never been a slicer of the ball so that aspect of what S&T stops isn't a concern of mine.

So, after all that reading and thinking, I was at the range last night and thought I'd give it a go. So I set up, narrower stance with feet splayed slightly, hands slightly pressed forward, weight set on left side. Then thought, right forget all your old lessons about swinging in front of you and let the hands and club go around, but stay on the left side. With those swing thoughts it just worked. Instantly I was getting a lovely ball ground solid impact, a penetrating flight and a soft draw.

There were so poor shots, the high right driver occasionaly, and the overly drawn low ones. But most shots were well struck, pretty much at the target with a predictable draw.

I got a video of my swing and it's certainly not classic S&T, and my club is definately too flat and off plane at the mid point of the swing, but for a first go at it I was extremely impressed. I had a feeling that the concept would suit my natural swing, which is inside to out. The biggest change for me is not concentrating on width in the back swing and keeping the weight centred, but I think I may stick with this for a while.

Whether I will go the whole hog and get the book and go completely S&T I'm not sure yet, but the weight centred, hip slide and shorter inside back swing do seem to work, so we'll see.

Big decision is that i have a game arranged tomorrow. Do I brave the S&T style swing on the course after just one range session, or do I stick with my normal swing. Decisions decisions.


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## JustOne (Mar 23, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			He also told me that another local pro, Matt Belsham at Whitehills in Herts is teaching it, so I may check out what he's doing. He has a big reputation locally any way.
		
Click to expand...

That's the guy that Robert Rock had some advice from and credited him after his win over Tiger.


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## JustOne (Mar 23, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Never mind. I think YouTube provided the answer 


Mike Weir: 

Wedge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSSqA8mNafc

Driver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZR30JKPTo

Click to expand...

Interesting to see just how much the hips work in those vids.

Saw Ricky Barnes last night on the TV and thought his hips were lateral on the downswing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xyO4tHbQi0

Can't find one of him hitting driver face on..... so if anyone fancies looking on Youtube.... 

He looks very close to a reverse pivot on the backswing but then drives forward further than my car going to the shops!


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## JustOne (Mar 23, 2012)

Jay1 said:



			Big decision is that i have a game arranged tomorrow. Do I brave the S&T style swing on the course after just one range session, or do I stick with my normal swing. Decisions decisions.
		
Click to expand...

Firstly, Welcome to the forum Jay1

I'd use the swing straight away but not judge it if you're crap  ...it's YOU... not the swing 

If you have a decent forward flex in your upper body over the ball the plane should look after itself somewhat as your left shoulder turns down to the ball. :thup:


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 23, 2012)

JustOne said:



			That's the guy that Robert Rock had some advice from and credited him after his win over Tiger.
		
Click to expand...

I had a look at his website earlier and he also has worked with a few other tour players. Doesn't mention S&T outright so wonder if he teaches something based on it or what. I know he's hard to get a booking with so is probably doing some good work....


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## percy_layer (Mar 23, 2012)

Really enjoying this thread, some very interesting points from everyone trying this technique.

Don't want to highjack the thread but if anyone has any questions for Plummer and Bennett, PM me and I'll try to ask them when I see them in a couple of months.

Best of luck to each of you implementing the elements into your game. Its not for me but it is very interesting.


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## JustOne (Mar 24, 2012)

percy_layer said:



			Don't want to highjack the thread but if anyone has any questions for Plummer and Bennett, PM me and I'll try to ask them when I see them in a couple of months.
		
Click to expand...

Yeh,,... ask them if they can send JustOne a copy of S&T 2.0 DVD for free seeing as I've single-handedly promoted their swing for nearly 3 yrs! 

If not can they at least make sure that someone in the UK has a few 1000 copies! :thup:

While you're at it ask them if they can put me through their training qualification for *free* as well 


Oh yeah... and at least get them to open a blog or forum on their site for Q and A's :thup:


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## GuitarRich (Mar 26, 2012)

2nd go at the range yesterday. Not quite as positive as the 1st, took me a few hits to warm up. My Mid-long irons (7-4) felt and flew nicely, I was pushing wedges and short irons a bit right - but I didn't have the book with me to go through the fault tree.

My driver & hybrid - what can I say! For some reason I could hardly hit the ball with the hybrid, kept topping it and my drives were back to a big slice  More practice required I think! 

Still feel fairly positive about the swing tho!

Question - how should it feel/sound when you strike the ball? For the most part, I'm getting a loud contact noise and can feel the club strike the ball in my hands. But about 1 in 5 shots I can't feel the strike at all, and the sound is quite - those are the ones that seem to go the best and the ball flight is a lot higher. Sometimes feels too high tbh.


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 26, 2012)

In honour of the critics who think S&T is about hitting the ball on one leg, here's a Sean Foley drill for... hitting the ball off one leg  :whoo:

Good to reinforce the weight on the front foot feeling though. I feel like in the midst of a good scoring run, I have lost touch with a few core principles, including front foot weight and spine lean. Going to hit the range for the first time in a few weeks to get back to basics.

[video=youtube;PhY2sQlTRx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhY2sQlTRx0[/video]


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## ADB (Mar 26, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			In honour of the critics who think S&T is about hitting the ball on one leg, here's a Sean Foley drill for... hitting the ball off one leg  :whoo:

Good to reinforce the weight on the front foot feeling though. I feel like in the midst of a good scoring run, I have lost touch with a few core principles, including front foot weight and spine lean. Going to hit the range for the first time in a few weeks to get back to basics.

[video=youtube;PhY2sQlTRx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhY2sQlTRx0[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, my left knee ligaments were straining just watching that clip........


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## Slime (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi guys.
S&T is finally going to the course.
First round this year, tomorrow afternoon, followed by a trip to Bearwood Lakes on Wednesday.
For those interested I'll post a report, probably over the weekend.
Don't know why, but I'm feeling strangely nervous..................not sure what to expect.
It'll either be a disaster or it'll be my own personal 'Concorde Moment'.
Hmmmmmmm.
There's nothing like putting a bit of extra pressure on yourself .

*Slime*.


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 27, 2012)

Managed a few holes after work, rather than the range, but used the quiet time on the course to really focus on what I was doing and re-address the fundamentals. As I said earlier, I think I'd lost touch with some key moves, particualrly the spine tilt on the backswing. My shoulder turn had got very level and reduced, leading to loss of distance and lack of draw.

Today I really focused on the tilt and staying stacked... who knew how helpful the name of the S&T pattern could be!

As with ANY swing pattern, its vital to check you are doing the basics well.

The result was a load more distance... comfortably 20 yards off the tee, and the draw was back.

Filmed a couple of swings on the course and noticed how upright i'm ending up at the finish. I think I'm failing to get the corresponding spin tilt to the right on the through swing, leading to backing off the ball and getting squared up and too upright at the finish.

Some things to continue to work on, but really encouraged by the results of revisiting the fundamentals.


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## One Planer (Mar 27, 2012)

I've spent the last week or so experimenting with ball position.

I know what I need to do to hit a push draw, but was curious about what other ball positions would yeild.

I've been playing the ball, roughly a balls width forward of centre with a club face square to target. All I've hit, pretty much are push fades. Starting righ, and gently fading further.

How? 

Well, turns out, according to the book, that a stronger grip, with a slightly closed club face (to target) will start the ball left and fade it to the target.

By weakening your grip (returning the club face open) and aiming slightly right of target, swinging in to out will hit a straight shot.

By doing the club face further right of target (10 yards in the book), again more neutral grip, swinging in to out will hit the push draw (depending on ball position on the swing arc).

No wonder people get confused


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## One Planer (Mar 28, 2012)

Just incase any one is interested, I've happened across an American S&T instructor on YouTube named Andy Patnou.

Here's a sample f his  videos


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDau9hQ78I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYTVc4JbUBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z17lfg5bdXU


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## Jay1 (Mar 28, 2012)

Question to those that have been practising and using S&T for a while now. 

How has it affected your carry distances, if at all?


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## GuitarRich (Mar 28, 2012)

for my irons - similar if not a yard or too further as I'm striking the ball a bit better. My driver was rubbish before and is still so I can't comment on that.


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## Monty_Brown (Mar 28, 2012)

Jay1 said:



			Question to those that have been practising and using S&T for a while now. 

How has it affected your carry distances, if at all?
		
Click to expand...

I'm perhaps 5 yards longer with my irons, although I have changed clubs during my 3-4 months working with S&T, so not that helpful I suppose.

However, with driver, carry and total distance are significantly longer... I think I'm 10-15 yards longer off the tee with S&T.


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2012)

Slime said:



			Hi guys.
S&T is finally going to the course.
First round this year, tomorrow afternoon, followed by a trip to Bearwood Lakes on Wednesday.
..................not sure what to expect.
It'll either be a disaster or it'll be my own personal 'Concorde Moment'.
*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Sit rep.
Played yesterday at Bramley G C. Scored 30pts.
My driving was total gash. Right, left, high floaty shots & a couple of tops!
I hit just ONE fairway & three greens in the entire round.
22 putts going out & 13 coming back. What's that all about?
BUT............and that was quite a large but, my short irons were much better than they used to be.
I hit a few really crisp approaches but found my radar was a bit pissed, I pulled a few left, but, as the contact was good I don't have a great issue with that. I can adjust that.
As I said, 30pts was not too bad considering my six three-jabs on the front nine.
At one point I went 8, 3, 8, 9, 3.  Not good.
Today I played at Bearwood Lakes, cracking course, but holes 8 & 9 were closed so we finished by playing the 1st & 18th again to make up the full 18 holes.
I was abysmal! I scored 28 points with only 31 putts.
My driving was better, I found 8 fairways, but I only hit 2 greens in regulation .
I wish I could take my form from the range to the course..........today I didn't.
I hit quite a few irons fat & pulled a few left & I think the reason for this is that I'm just trying to spank the little bugger, on the range I don't do that. When I did hit a good iron it felt really crisp & kept a bit of hope going. I did manage to hit a beautiful soft draw with my hybrid, 200yds up a slight hill, that was nice.
To sum up : It's obviously still a WIP & I'm not giving up. I must remember to 'let the club do the work' & stop trying to burst the bloody ball, oh, and turn those bloody hips through on the downswing!!!!!!!
Bad shots have always been bad but the good shots are just gorgeous................I've just got to hit more of them!
I hope someone finds this useful. 
I'm sticking with it, no doubt, although it's only 7Â½ weeks until I go to Spain  !
Wishing you all well,

*Slime*.

P.S. I still had a great day, four mates in hot sunshine laughing their way round Bearwood Lakes..........quality.


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 10, 2012)

After playing really poorly the last couple of rounds, I've spent some time revisiting the book and checking out a few threads on sandtrap and youtube videos.

My bad shots have all been pushes, blocks or push slices, which tells me that the in to out club path is there, but the face is too open at impact.

I've realised my error has been mistaking deep hands and thinking that requires deep clubhead too. I am taking the hands away on the inside, but also taking the club even further inside (by rolling the right arm open) at the same time. Not good - its almost impossible to get the clubhead back to square from that position, meaning I either have to come OTT to compensate or just get stuck behind and hit the push.

What I need to be doing is keeping the club outside my hands on the down the line view (a la Rickie Fowler). Best swing feeling I can find for this is to concentrate on keeping the back of the left hand facing the ball as long as possible on the takeaway, with the back of the right hand staying on top as long as possible as well. Looking forward to trying this out.

This guy's thread on his swing issues describes the above problem pretty well, and the advice is excellent.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/53961/my-swing-the-pharaoh


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## GuitarRich (Apr 11, 2012)

Had my second outing yesterday - 2 rounds at Kilworth springs - I think some more range time is in order tho! Struggled with the driver - only hitting 6 fairways all day. When I did it right, it was really nice!, but for the most part not so good. Most frustrating thing is that my bad shot has gone from a big old slice to being completely random - slice, hooks, topping it - arrhh 

Irons were ok - a lot of push fade's and mostly missing the target - but hitting ok.

Wedges - I duffed quite a few, hitting the ground first and only getting half the distance I was going for, I think a lot of that tho was down to being hesitant in the down swing, not wanting to hit it over the back of the greens.

My new 3 wood on the other hand was awesome - so that was a positive on the day.

I took a vid of my swing on the 18th - no tripod so its a bit shaky (handheld by my playing partner) - but its not as neat as it is in my head  - I'll upload it for you to analyse (tear to bits) later!

Need to fix my drives!


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## GuitarRich (Apr 11, 2012)

[video=youtube;_ExzjoUHED0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ExzjoUHED0[/video]

here you go - be kind


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2012)

GuitarRich said:



*Struggled with the driver* - only hitting 6 fairways all day. When I did it right, it was really nice!, but for the most part not so good. Most frustrating thing is that my bad shot has gone from a big old slice to being completely random - slice, hooks, topping it - arrhh 

Irons were ok - a lot of push fade's and mostly missing the target - but hitting ok.

Wedges - I duffed quite a few, hitting the ground first and only getting half the distance I was going for, I think a lot of that tho was down to being hesitant in the down swing, not wanting to hit it over the back of the greens.

*Need to fix my drives!*

Click to expand...

I'm with you there mate.
I had a bash around Reigate Hill on Saturday, my 3rd outing with S&T.
I scored 30pts with 5 re-loads, so not too bad. Of the re-loads, four were high & ugly slices, 2 of which ended up OOB! Driving is still very much a problem unless I go to my 4 wood or my hybrid. I just have no confidence when standing on the tee with my driver in my hands!!
My iron play, on the other hand, was really solid. Shot two over gross on the par threes with 9 putts, so not too bad. Good strikes, good distance but with the occaisional pull.
I'm still getting used to my new clubs and I'm still not too sure on the distances, especially the wedges.
Off to the range to swear at my driver again!!!  Aaaaggghhh.

*Slime*.


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2012)

Slime said:



*Off to the range to swear at my driver again!!!  Aaaaggghhh.
*
*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Well...........what can I say?
Everything seemed to be going as expected. Short irons, mid irons, long irons, hybrid...........all going really well. Pulled out my 4 wood.............whack..........good shot, more than acceptable.
Three more shots.............very good.............that leaves only one club remaining.
Pulled out the driver & BOOM. 150yds forward, 50yds upwards & about 80yds right. 
This happened several times, then a mate of mine turned up. We had a quick chat before I gave him some range balls & a club or two while I continued hitting high slices time & time again.
I hadn't realised he'd stopped hitting & was watching me whilst laughing uncontrollably at my shot shaping abilities .
He then queried my ball position, stating that it was in the middle of my stance. I was gobsmacked & told him it was just in line with my front heel. I lined up again, marked the positions of my feet & checked it out.................he was right!!!
I then moved the ball waaaaay forward, in line with my left heel, and hit some shots. It was a true eureka moment. They were all going long & within five or six yards of dead straight. 
Have to go back to the range tomorrow just to make sure that this actually happened................but I'll definitely sleep well tonight.
Moral of the story................don't give up & just re-visit the basics, it's made a huge difference to me!
Good luck,

*Slime*.


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 12, 2012)

I've dug out a recent video clip of my swing to illustrate the point I made the other day about the clubhead getting far too deep (ie left of my hands from this DTL view) on the backswing.

When the club reaches parallel to the ground on the b/s, the club should ideally be pointing straight back at the camera, with the clubhead actually covering the view of my hands, and the club face at 90* to the swing plane. (edit: this isn't the best camera angle as it's too far right of my body to get the pure DTL view)

My clubhead has tracked back way too far inside the line and hands and arms have rolled open.

This is causing me all sorts of bother on the downswing. The club is too far behind my body and gets "stuck" with me often being unable to square the club face. I get away with it on this shot because I'm only hitting a wedge, so my hands were able to work quick enough to manipulate the clubhead.

Other issues I see are: retaining too much knee flex in the right leg on the backswing, spine is backing off in the downswing, rather than uncoiling and then transferring to a rightward tilt.

Went to the range last night and did some work on keeping the clubhead level with or even slightly outside the hands and not rolling open on the backswing. 

Anything anyone else notices, I'd be glad to hear it!

[video=youtube;Ah6Y8XVQVUI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah6Y8XVQVUI&feature=youtube_gdata[/video]


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2012)

GuitarRich said:



			[video=youtube;_ExzjoUHED0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ExzjoUHED0[/video]

here you go - be kind 

Click to expand...

On your backswing (once your left arm gets parallel to the ground) your head starts to come up and pull you out of your spine angle a little.

Like Monty's post above, you also allow the clubhead to travel behind you a bit early on the backswing, if you consider taking it a little steeper... it will feel very OTT.... and then rotate a little more on the downswing, allowing you to drop the club back inside..... playing for a 'later hit'.


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2012)

@Monty....

What sort of ballflight are you getting/struggling with?


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 12, 2012)

James, pushes and even push fades have crept in. The draw is there if I slow things down. Things feel a bit random of late. Lost the consistency of the pattern and shot shape as old swing habits have crept back, hence my current back to basics period revisiting the s and t book.


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## chris661 (Apr 12, 2012)

Wanna buy a set of the videos


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2012)

Back to the range yesterday to work on my driving with my newly trialled ball position ( see post #348).
Can't really believe it.................................it's still working.
Hit about 110 drives with three different drivers. Mostly very acceptable.
I managed to throw in the occasional sharp hook & had a spell of several slices when I forgot to keep my weight forward, but most of my shots were within 6 or 7 yards of dead straight, and I'll take that any day of the week.
Distance was reasonable too. They were generally pitching around 210/220 yards with horrible rang balls. A few found the netting at the end which is 250yds away.
I also had a bash with a Tour Edge XCG-5 & a taylor Made RBZ driver, but I'll post my thoughts on these on another thread over the weekend - prepare to be as gob-smacked as I was!

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Apr 13, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			James, pushes and even push fades have crept in. The draw is there if I slow things down. Things feel a bit random of late. Lost the consistency of the pattern and shot shape as old swing habits have crept back, hence my current back to basics period revisiting the s and t book.
		
Click to expand...

If you're too flat then it's possible that your shoulders are just fractionally leading an upper body downswing (trying to make the plane steeper so you can hit down on the ball) making your path too straight. Keeping the club outside (as you plan) should help you get a bit more 'reverse loop' sensation where you feel you can take the club up steeper on the backswing and drop it inside (a bit shallower) on the downswing, provided you open your hips into impact you should see good results.


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## JustOne (Apr 13, 2012)

Slime said:



			Back to the range yesterday to work on my driving with my newly trialled ball position ( see post #348).
Can't really believe it.................................it's still working.
Hit about 110 drives with three different drivers. Mostly very acceptable.
I managed to throw in the occasional sharp hook & had a spell of several slices when I forgot to keep my weight forward, but most of my shots were within 6 or 7 yards of dead straight, and I'll take that any day of the week.
Distance was reasonable too. They were generally pitching around 210/220 yards with horrible rang balls. A few found the netting at the end which is 250yds away.
I also had a bash with a Tour Edge XCG-5 & a taylor Made RBZ driver, but I'll post my thoughts on these on another thread over the weekend - prepare to be as gob-smacked as I was!

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update Slime :thup:... we need a vid now


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## GuitarRich (Apr 13, 2012)

Sweet - I did think the club head was coming too far inside. Are there any drills I can try to keep my head still? I'm off to the range tonight with camera to try out a few things - I will try your suggestions.


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 13, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If you're too flat then it's possible that your shoulders are just fractionally leading an upper body downswing (trying to make the plane steeper so you can hit down on the ball) making your path too straight. Keeping the club outside (as you plan) should help you get a bit more 'reverse loop' sensation where you feel you can take the club up steeper on the backswing and drop it inside (a bit shallower) on the downswing, provided you open your hips into impact you should see good results.
		
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Cheers James. That all makes sense to me. I had a range session where I was getting a feeling of taking the club up on the outside - of course the reality was nothing of the sort, it just felt like that becasue I was used to the club coming way inside. Feel isn't real and all that!

I think this is going to take a while to ingrain so am just going to have to play through it as there are a few comps coming up. The annoying thing is I was hitting it really solid about a month ago, although more due to my timing being spot on than totally reliable swings mechanics I suspect.


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## Slime (Apr 13, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Thanks for the update Slime :thup:... we need a vid now 

Click to expand...

Will try to get one over the next few days, it may make an interesting comparison to my last vids!

*Slime*.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 18, 2012)

I really do not understand all this talk about stack and tilt, it looks exactly the same as a normal golf swing, everything they say that a "normal" golf swing is something teaching pros tell me is wrong. Everything I get taught is in a stack and tilt swing but I am just learning the swing the pros teach me and its all the same.

I am sure stack and tilt and the normal golf swing teaching pros use is the same thing!

Are all the pros just teaching stack and tilt or are the two things one and the same?


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## Monty_Brown (Apr 19, 2012)

ScienceBoy said:



			I really do not understand all this talk about stack and tilt, it looks exactly the same as a normal golf swing, everything they say that a "normal" golf swing is something teaching pros tell me is wrong. Everything I get taught is in a stack and tilt swing but I am just learning the swing the pros teach me and its all the same.

I am sure stack and tilt and the normal golf swing teaching pros use is the same thing!

Are all the pros just teaching stack and tilt or are the two things one and the same?
		
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Interesting point SB. The thing that gets missed often in discussion of S&T is that it was developed through analysis of the swings of successful players. Bennett and Plummer spend years looking at the swings of the most successful players through the years and seeing what moves and positions they had in common.

Centred weight, no move off the ball, straightening right leg on the b/s, deep hands, leg extension through impact.... these are all common moves and they are well documented in the book with pictures of pros going back 50 years.

It really isn't so different from "normal" swings, but when these moves are put together, it gets portrayed as being some sort of dark art.


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## Slime (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi all,
I took S&T to the course for the fourth time, and I've got to say, I'm getting quite excited as it seems to be coming together at last.
The weather on Wednesday was awful, it was very windy & poured with rain non-stop from about the 5th hole onwards. I shot a gross 83, scored 41pts and played the last ten holes in 3 over par!
I hit 10 of 14 fairways since I've pushed the ball position more forward in my stance but still have a couple of issues that I hope you experts can address for me.
The first problem is that I hit several approaches left of target, even with a slightly open clubface. These shots started straight and drew about 10 or 15 yards left of target.............any thoughts?
The other problem I had was with my 60Âº lob wedge, it just goes nowhere. No matter how hard I hit it I just can't get it to go more than 60yds when I think it should be going 75yds minimum...........maybe a ball position problem? I have the ball in the middle of my stance when hitting all my wedges, my 55Âº sand wedge goes about 95yds if that's any help.
Thanks for listening once again,

*Slime*.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 21, 2012)

Monty_Brown said:



			Interesting point SB. The thing that gets missed often in discussion of S&T is that it was developed through analysis of the swings of successful players.
		
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I have come to the conclusion that S&T is a exaggerated standard swing. The marketing people try and make it sound more different and encourage the people promoting it to sound more different. Most of the negative comments about the so called "normal" swing are exaggerated or inaccurate for the modern "normal" swing taught by pros up and down the country. 

None of that means there is anything wrong with S&T, it just means the marketing department (they do seem to have done a number on this one in the golfing world) have got their grubby mitt prints all over it. Especially all that bit about what the pros do different to each other and those bits not making a difference, that is massively exaggerating things, once I heard that I was convinced that the marketing team were behind a lot of the hype!

What I am trying to say is don't believe all the hype,  S&T does not look that different to a normal golf swing but it appears the slight modifications will work for some people more than others.


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## JustOne (Apr 22, 2012)

^
^
^

Interesting opinion SB. I don't know what 'marketing' you are referring to as the people that started the S&T swing theory hardly do anything to market themselves at all... that's generally done by people that have had success from the pattern, or understand the golf swing.





			S&T is a exaggerated standard swing
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, I'd say in reality that it's more like the standard swing becoming a diluted version of S&T over the past 4 yrs.



World reknowned instructors acknowledge the merits of the S&T swing and the elements it's structured on, pros are incorporating these elements into their current teaching more than ever.... which I think causes your confusion.


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## Slime (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi everyone,
I played yesterday in a howling gale but still struck the ball pleasingly well.
The problem was that I got plugged, (all below the sand in a big plug hole), in eight bunkers, resulting in eleven bunker shots! I then realised that they were all left of greens. I'd pulled my approaches left time & time again.
I have a 'mental' problem in that I find it very disconcerting to hit an approach shot with my clubface open to my intended target line, having been a slicer for over twenty years, bearing in mind that, due to the wind, they were all 'knock down' shots. Does this type of shot obey the S&T principles of open face with in to out swingpath when just trying to punch the ball 130yds or so?
Any advice would be good,
many thanks,

*Slime*.


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## duncan mackie (Apr 27, 2012)

"S&T is a exaggerated standard swing 			 		"




 'I disagree, I'd say in reality that it's more like the standard  swing becoming a diluted version of S&T over the past 4 yrs.'

I agree your disagreement, but can't agree your conclusion 

The locked right knee and extended left leg through impact are not part of the standard swing - then or now.

Personally I see it as a simple, easy to teach and learn, swing - it should get more people enjoying the game quicker. Excellent.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 27, 2012)

Slime said:



			Hi all,
I took S&T to the course for the fourth time, and I've got to say, I'm getting quite excited as it seems to be coming together at last.
The weather on Wednesday was awful, it was very windy & poured with rain non-stop from about the 5th hole onwards. I shot a gross 83, scored 41pts and played the last ten holes in 3 over par!
I hit 10 of 14 fairways since I've pushed the ball position more forward in my stance but still have a couple of issues that I hope you experts can address for me.
The first problem is that I hit several approaches left of target, even with a slightly open clubface. These shots started straight and drew about 10 or 15 yards left of target.............any thoughts?
The other problem I had was with my 60Âº lob wedge, it just goes nowhere. No matter how hard I hit it I just can't get it to go more than 60yds when I think it should be going 75yds minimum...........maybe a ball position problem? I have the ball in the middle of my stance when hitting all my wedges, my 55Âº sand wedge goes about 95yds if that's any help.
Thanks for listening once again,

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...



It sounds like your alignment is out.
I would say your feet and your shoulders are pointing left,but
you feel you are aiming at the flag.
The reason i say this is purely because it is what i do.
And when i look at my alignment,i am pointing more left than
i think i am.
Maybe it is maybe it isnt,but its worth looking at.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 28, 2012)

JustOne said:



			World reknowned instructors acknowledge the merits of the S&T swing and the elements it's structured on, pros are incorporating these elements into their current teaching more than ever.... which I think causes your confusion.
		
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If that is also the case for club and driving range pros (a la bob) then that's probably true! Its not a bad thing, I am not anti S&T, I just play the swing taught me by the guy who I learnt golf from! I just get the opinion after switching pros that the swing being taught now is closer to S&T than what I hear people have been taught in the past.


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## garyinderry (May 31, 2012)

so i met my first stack and tilter last night. my mate has been getting lessons for the last two years. he has a lovely looking swing. nice tempo, beautiful finish, the lot. but when he hits the ball he either thins, fats or shanks. no consistancy at all. it was driving him mad.

i noticed in his set up he seemed to have elements of whats looks like the stack and tilt swing. the pro has now started teaching him this swing as he said he was having trouble with the weightshift. we had a chat last night and i tryed a few shots and i was amazed how well it worked.

today i hit 3 lazer stright irons with the 5,6 & 7!  any time i tried a practice swing i was taking,wait for it. straight divots! the first time EVER!

there is no doubting that there is something to this swing. i might be a natural for this as i already have the straight right leg and 1 plane swing.


this is will be under more investigation in the coming weeks. even if i just takes bits from it then it will stand me in good stead! 


havnt seen this discussed in a while. might give this thread anther read when i get a chance!


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## virtuocity (Sep 25, 2012)

Mega bump!  Hope mods don't mind, I'd rather contribute here than start a new one.

As an overweight dude in my late 20s, I have just started playing and have had 4 lessons thus far.

I have really struggled to come to terms with the swing I am being taught.  90% of my shots (95% of driver hits) are crazy slices.

Took to an indoor range today after reading this thread.  OK- I appreciate I can't examine my flight path fully, but after adopting:

-Weight on left leg
-Tilt left shoulder
-Spring hip through downswing

.... My flight path was straight.

Most importantly, it felt COMFORTABLE.  After hitting 100 or so balls, my hands, back, shoulders usually feel stiff and sore.  Right now, I feel like I could go and hit 200 more balls.

Going down to my outside range tomorrow morning and will report back.

In the meantime, if anyone has those DVDs gathering dust, I'll be happy to take them off your hands for a reasonable price.


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## Slime (Sep 25, 2012)

Get the book.
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=sddhUP7fJKzO0AX6nIG4Cg&ved=0CD8Q8wIwAg
 I find it really helpful and easy to understand.
I also find fault diagnosis much easier with S & T as there is less body movement during the swing.
Stick with it.

*Slime*.


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## virtuocity (Sep 25, 2012)

Slime said:



			Get the book.
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=sddhUP7fJKzO0AX6nIG4Cg&ved=0CD8Q8wIwAg
 I find it really helpful and easy to understand.
I also find fault diagnosis much easier with S & T as there is less body movement during the swing.
Stick with it.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Cool stuff- A library quite close to me actually has it!  Will pick it up tomorrow.


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## chris661 (Sep 25, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Cool stuff- A library quite close to me actually has it!  Will pick it up tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

I have a set of the dvd's and book available. If you want them drop me a pm and we will sort something out.


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## virtuocity (Sep 26, 2012)

Mini update.

Went to the range this morning and hit 200 balls (Â£6.50!).  

Short irons feel amazing, although struggling slightly with my 5 iron and 5 wood.

I've always had a problem with distance (well, since starting to play a couple of months ago) but I was, repeat WAS, a consistent slicer.

I think I sliced one ball today and faded around 25 of them, but the majority of shots either went dead straight or with a 5-10 yard draw.

Not bad for Day 2 of this project.

My distance is a bit of a pain though from the perfect range mat:

PW- super high and 80 yards
9 iron- 115 yards
7 iron- 120 yards
6 iron- 125 yards
5 iron- 130 yards
5 wood- 150 yards*

(* off the range tee)

Now in possession of the book, courtesy of my library and noticed quite a few things I haven't been adopting.

Things I will work on as per the book instructions (please comment):

1.  Standing more upright at set-up, then bending the knees and neck with butt pushed back to keep a good centre.
2.  Work on straightening my right leg through the backswing
3.  Pushing my butt under my torso through the downswing

Anyone else currently learning this swing?  I know it's been a while since Monty, Gareth et al posted here?


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## One Planer (Sep 26, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Anyone else currently learning this swing?  I know it's been a while since Monty, Gareth et al posted here?
		
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To be honest I forgot all about the thread .

I'm working on getting the final piece correct at the mo (Finish position)

That should see me through the winter and hopefully have it sorted come start of the 2013 season.


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## Slime (Sep 26, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			My distance is a bit of a pain though from the perfect range mat:

PW- super high and 80 yards
9 iron- 115 yards
7 iron- 120 yards
6 iron- 125 yards
5 iron- 130 yards
5 wood- 150 yards*

(* off the range tee)
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about distances because range balls are exactly that..................range balls, and as such do not go as far as proper golf balls. If they did, at Â£6.50 for 200, they'd all be gone in an instant.
Keep plugging away, you won't regret it.

*Slime*.


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## One Planer (Sep 26, 2012)

Slime said:



			I wouldn't worry about distances because range balls are exactly that..................range balls, and as such do not go as far as proper golf balls. If they did, at Â£6.50 for 200, they'd all be gone in an instant.
Keep plugging away, you won't regret it.

*Slime*.
		
Click to expand...

Is the right answer.

Don't expect miracles over night, give yourself time to adopt to the changes and see how you feel then.


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## virtuocity (Sep 26, 2012)

Gareth said:



			Is the right answer.

Don't expect miracles over night, give yourself time to adopt to the changes and see how you feel then.
		
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Incorrect.  I sliced 0.5% of shots today.  That sir, is a miracle!


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## virtuocity (Sep 27, 2012)

Just went for a video analysis.  Horrible viewing, but really interesting.  I would post a vid here but it's hosted via a bespoke site which needs log ons.

Seem to have a decent set up, takeaway and backswing.  The main issue I have is on the downswing- getting my left hip out of the way.  Because my hips aren't turning properly, it's causing my left arm to bend at impact (ugly) and even more so at the end of the swing.

Pro has given me some drills to improve a more consistent connection with the ball, but anyone with any tips on getting this hip turn working (particularly from S&T followers) would be great.

Edited to add:

The flight tracker & simulator picked up that my distances with the 7 iron was better than what I thought and although distance with my 5 wood was OK, the club speed at impact wasn't as fast as it should be- perhaps because I was decelerating through the downswing because of a poor hip turn.


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## JustOne (Sep 27, 2012)

Your pro is teaching you stack and tilt, and videoing it for you too?


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## virtuocity (Sep 27, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Your pro is teaching you stack and tilt, and videoing it for you too?
		
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Erm, not quite.  It was my first visit with her and whilst she was clearly not the biggest advocate of stack and tilt, she (coming from the Titleist TPI philosophy) was happy to offer advice based on what my body was most comfortable doing.

At present, my body is at its most comfortable loading more weight on my left side and making a big shoulder turn.  The only difficulty I had was:

1.  Making a consistent contact with the ball (2 drills provided)
2.  Making a good hip turn on the downswing (told to concentrate on item 1 initially, thus the thread).


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## stevelev (Sep 27, 2012)

does it matter whether it is a conventional swing a stack and tilt swing or a completely unconventional swing?  No all we aim for is to hit the shot we want when we want and if we could do that with our current swing we'd be happy. I'd much rather people compliment on results rather than swings.


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## JustOne (Sep 27, 2012)

stevelev said:



			does it matter whether it is a conventional swing a stack and tilt swing or a completely unconventional swing?
		
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No, but lots of people can't perform the 'conventional' swing very well either (does that make their swing an unconventional one? if so what do you teach them?)... do you try to make it 'more' conventional? I don't think there is a standard for the 'conventional' swing.... and that being the case not many people ever master it OR find any consistency whatsoever (hence a lot of people have fairly high h/caps)




stevelev said:



			all we aim for is to hit the shot we want when we want and if we could do that with our current swing we'd be happy..
		
Click to expand...

and if we can't? [see above] :thup:


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## JustOne (Sep 27, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Erm, not quite.  It was my first visit with her and whilst she was clearly not the biggest advocate of stack and tilt, she (coming from the Titleist TPI philosophy) was happy to offer advice based on what my body was most comfortable doing.

At present, my body is at its most comfortable loading more weight on my left side and making a big shoulder turn.  The only difficulty I had was:

1.  Making a consistent contact with the ball (2 drills provided)
2.  Making a good hip turn on the downswing (told to concentrate on item 1 initially, thus the thread).
		
Click to expand...

The hip turn isn't as important in S&T and possibly not the cause of your left arm bending at impact. In S&T the hips slide towards the target a little more in transition and then the hips TUCK under your torso whilst your legs straighten (extension), not the same as a conventional 'superfast spin of the hips!!

The possible cause (without seeing your swing) is that the ball is too far back in your stance or your hands are too far forwards. Both of these cause a steepening of the path and your body instinctively tries to stop the club from burying into the ground by lifting (bending) the left arm.... there's a few other reasons eg: it's possible you may also be bent forward too much, or even casting the club... blah blah blah.

That said, if you are HAPPY with what you are doing then keep doing it :thup:


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone would like any further information, or has any questions on how to use or implement the system please contact me via pm.

I'm one of four authorised instructors in the UK.

I've been lucky enough to have spent a great deal of time with Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett, and continue to do so. 

My golf swing interests also lie with TGM and MORAD I'm fortunate enough to have spent many hours with the relevant instructors.

I really enjoy talking golf, learning and I invite your questions if you've any.

Sam


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## JustOne (Oct 24, 2012)

SamQuirkePGA said:



			If anyone would like any further information, or has any questions on how to use or implement the system please contact me via pm.

I'm one of four authorised instructors in the UK.

I've been lucky enough to have spent a great deal of time with Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett, and continue to do so. 

My golf swing interests also lie with TGM and MORAD I'm fortunate enough to have spent many hours with the relevant instructors.

I really enjoy talking golf, learning and I invite your questions if you've any.

Sam
		
Click to expand...

Hi Sam, why don't you stick around and answer some people's questions in the 'ask the experts' section? I'm sure that it'll help you in the long run as there are a lot of people here who have an interest in S&T, and probably a lot that would be prepared to have lessons with you if you became a 'little popular' on the forum.

Just for some to see that a PGA PRO can actually advocate the S&T pattern will be a REVELATION!!!! 



James. :cheers:


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## G1BB0 (Oct 24, 2012)

I totally agree with James, theres a select few that 'do it' but a lot more who would like to or who have read about it but not totally convinced (me being one).

just about to google TGM & MORAD 

welcome to GM btw


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## G1BB0 (Oct 24, 2012)

wish I hadn't now lol


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## Slime (Oct 24, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			wish I hadn't now lol
		
Click to expand...

Same as that. How muddied can it get?

*Slime*.


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words guys.

I may stick around! Initially if anyone has any questions please be in touch!

I've a catalogue of thousands of pictures confirming the information, some of which Id be happy to share!

Best

Sam


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## virtuocity (Oct 25, 2012)

Well, I'll get the ball rolling Sam with a few questions of my own.

1.  Will a baseball grip work with S&T or is Vardon a necessity? 
2.  Backswing- how much AROUND the body should the club go.  Should it be a really steep arc?
3.  Downswing- please describe this in a simple way.  I've always struggled with this due to not being flexible and liking pies too much, therefore getting my hip out of the way has been very difficult.  I'm struggling with irons particularly.  Having looked at the book there seems to be TOO MUCH info for me to get my head around.  

Thanks!


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 25, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Well, I'll get the ball rolling Sam with a few questions of my own.

1.  Will a baseball grip work with S&T or is Vardon a necessity? 

Yes, the grip is not a fundamental.

2.  Backswing- how much AROUND the body should the club go.  Should it be a really steep arc?

The path of the hands and the club will follow an approximate 20 degree arc as traced on the ground with the clubhead tracing between the elbow and shoulder plane.

3.  Downswing- please describe this in a simple way.  I've always struggled with this due to not being flexible and liking pies too much, therefore getting my hip out of the way has been very difficult.  I'm struggling with irons particularly.  Having looked at the book there seems to be TOO MUCH info for me to get my head around.  

You do not need flexibility, nor do you need to get your hip out of the way, the left hip will move in a predominantly linear motion during the course of the downswing.

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Sam


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## virtuocity (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks Sam,

Just a little more info on the downswing would be great.  So you have told me that my flexibility is not a problem- great!

So what has my swing path on the downswing to be like?  Do I need to try and hit down on the ball?


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 25, 2012)

virtuocity said:



			Thanks Sam,

Just a little more info on the downswing would be great.  So you have told me that my flexibility is not a problem- great!

So what has my swing path on the downswing to be like?  Do I need to try and hit down on the ball?
		
Click to expand...

Flexibility really is not an issue at all. This is a misconception, I'm not saying increased flexibility isn't beneficial just that the golfer doesn't have to be as flexible as many perceive.

The low point of the swing is underneath the left shoulder, thus you've hit the ball already so all being correct you'd have hit down and out.

In terms of the path on the dowsing - PM your email and Im happy to send a couple of pictures to illustrate, easier than words!

Sam


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 25, 2012)

Consider the picture attached of many of the games greats demonstrating the 'flying wedge'.


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## Slime (Oct 25, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Hi Sam, why don't you stick around and answer some people's questions in the 'ask the experts' section? I'm sure that it'll help you in the long run as there are a lot of people here who have an interest in S&T, *and probably a lot that would be prepared to have lessons with you* if you became a 'little popular' on the forum.

Just for some to see that a PGA PRO can actually advocate the S&T pattern will be a REVELATION!!!! 

Click to expand...

I fancy a piece of that action.
I've tentatively got Dec 8th in mind for a bit of a group lesson...................an introduction to S&T kinda thing.
If three or four of you want to get involved, drop him an e-mail (samquirke@me.com) or a PM or something.
I've been self-teaching for a while with the aid of the S&T book, and tons of tips from *JustOne* of course, but it would be great to actually see it for real being demonstrated by a Bennett & Plummer authorised teaching pro.
Maybe some theory followed by some practical...........................it's like being back at school!
Just a thought,

*Slime*.


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## G1BB0 (Oct 25, 2012)

I am all over this, got the book & dvd's, just didnt dedicate the time to it as was more inclined to hack around the course than oput the effort in. Now I have set my self all winter to sort my swing out as I feel 4 months of effort will see much bigger benefits on the course, better scores and more enjoyment


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## G1BB0 (Oct 30, 2012)

1st 'attempt' at s&t esque swing tonight. A bit hit and miss due to getting a bit ballsed up and the old hanging on the back foot kicking in. Ball striking was decent overall with the vast majority dead straight! distance was very good aswell with several 9 irons hitting the 150yd marker (I know it was at the range so will take with a pinch of salt). Been watching a few drills vids on youtube and watching the dvd's again. More practice tomorrow night and no doubt every night therafter... watch this space


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## Slime (Oct 30, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			1st 'attempt' at s&t esque swing tonight. A bit hit and miss due to getting a bit ballsed up and the old hanging on the back foot kicking in. Ball striking was decent overall with the vast majority dead straight! distance was very good aswell with several 9 irons hitting the 150yd marker (I know it was at the range so will take with a pinch of salt). Been watching a few drills vids on youtube and watching the dvd's again. More practice tomorrow night and no doubt every night therafter... watch this space 

Click to expand...

Keep going & keep us posted.

*Slime*.


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## Morecambe hacker (Oct 31, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			1st 'attempt' at s&t esque swing tonight. A bit hit and miss due to getting a bit ballsed up and the old hanging on the back foot kicking in. Ball striking was decent overall with the vast majority dead straight! distance was very good aswell with several 9 irons hitting the 150yd marker (I know it was at the range so will take with a pinch of salt). Been watching a few drills vids on youtube and watching the dvd's again. More practice tomorrow night and no doubt every night therafter... watch this space 

Click to expand...

I'm like you mate just trying it out after deciding to take a trip to the dark side. Book still hasn't turned but after hours of YouTube vids I've tried it once on a local playing field and Saturday straight on the course. First impressions??? WOW!!! Ball striking is miles better, nice shallow divots few inches ahead of ball and improved distances. I'm not a big hitter but my playing partner is & I was matching him yard for yard but 1 club less which I massive for me. A first in my golf career 3 straight birdie opportunities ( a par 5, par 3, par 3) missed all 3 lol due to mega slow greens but them 3 chances is a massive advance for me so fills me with confidence and its making me realise I've made the right decision. No shots are a draw as of yet bar 1 but all dead straight also it allows me to actually hit my 5 iron which I really struggle with (not now tho!) also hit a par 3 6iron uphill green wind in face only to find it 7 inches left of a first hole in 1!! Driver & 3 wood total cack lol never worked at all, huge snap hooks but 4 hybrid right through to 64 degree ultra lob wedge very happy with progress so far. Can't wait for my book cos I think this is the best decision I've made regarding my own personal swing/game.


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## SamQuirkePGA (Oct 31, 2012)

I wish you all the best with your practice chaps!


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## One Planer (Oct 31, 2012)

Gibbo/MH. The only advice I will give as regards adopting the pattern is don't try and do too much too soon. I've spent the last 18 months adding the different facets to my game in the order of how I swing 1st- set-up, 2nd - Take away and back swing etc.

Dont just change your swing wholesale straight away.

I'm working, at the minute on tucking the hips at the finish of the swing. My ball striking has been much improved since taking up the S&T pattern. I'm not for one second saying I couldn't have improved using a conventional swing, but this pattern seems to suit me and it's reflecting in my striking and subsequent scores.

As an example. Here are the strike marks on the faces from last night short game practice (Approach play from 25-125 yards)

























Thursdays practice is mid-iron approach play to various greens at the range. Still working on the tuck, as that's the reason for the range visit, just so happen I'll be hittin 5-8 irons at greens :smirk:


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## Fader (Oct 31, 2012)

Currently all over this like a rash myself. Got the book at last, having a read through starting today, then it's 2 range sessions a week grooving changes. 

Not going all out balls out with everything in one go though, am introducing it slowly a piece at a time to make sure each move is grooved. Hopefully over the next 4 months my consistency will return and my goals with it can be achieved.


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## virtuocity (Oct 31, 2012)

So far, the weight on the left side and big shoulder turn has helped me out quite a bit.  

Next step is working on the downswing as I'm still not consistently striking the ball flush.

Awaiting arrival of DVDs- books don't help me at all!!!


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2012)

Just out of interest, which aspects of the S&T method are you guys NOT going to change to ?


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## Slime (Oct 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Just out of interest, which aspects of the S&T method are you guys NOT going to change to ?
		
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I'm trying to incorporate all aspects of S&T. My biggest problem is how to take my range form to the course. 
On the range yesterday and virtually everything was going really well, on the course was a different story!
I only managed to hit one green, most of the others I missed right, maybe my clubface is slightly too open on contact and I hardly got any draw at all. I think it's a butt tucking thing....................still a W I P I'm afraid.

*Slime*.


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## JustOne (Oct 31, 2012)

Slime said:



			I only managed to hit one green, most of the others I missed right, maybe my clubface is slightly too open on contact and I hardly got any draw at all.
		
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Sounds more than feasible. You could address the face (which I'd suggest first) or 'persuade' your swingpath to come more from the inside (more weight left, hands more forward, hand path more in) if it's not already. Hardest thing to check (without an extra pair of eyes) is your posture.


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2012)

hand path more in) if it's not already.
		
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Like this you mean?


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## JustOne (Oct 31, 2012)

If the players handpath was previously more 'out' than that then Yes I'd suggest that was a better position.

I happen to like that position a lot as the player (is that Mike Bennett?) has the club on the same plane as the shoulders... which in turn are nicely tilted.


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2012)

I happen to like that position a lot as the player (is that Mike Bennett?) has the club on the same plane as the shoulders... which in turn are nicely tilted.
		
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They're a bit like Ant and Dec, I never know which one's which.

You mean when the hands are waist height, the shaft and shoulder lines are parallel ?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			They're a bit like Ant and Dec, I never know which one's which.

You mean when the hands are waist height, the shaft and shoulder lines are parallel ?

View attachment 3325

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They ALWAYS stand in order, Ant then Dec....


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2012)

I saw that on QI but have never had the inclination to test the theory


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## JustOne (Oct 31, 2012)

bobmac said:



			They're a bit like Ant and Dec, I never know which one's which.
		
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LOLOLOL  Generally the one who you see hitting balls is Mike Bennett...... or DEC 



bobmac said:



			You mean when the hands are waist height, the shaft and shoulder lines are parallel ?






Click to expand...

Are we about to go down the 'I can find a picture of anything and cause an argument' route Bob?

I like the positions in that pic although I can find other pics where the hands are deeper, less deep, where the clubhead is deeper or indeed outside the hands, where there is more shoulder tilt or less shoulder tilt. All swings have variances according to the ballflight that the player requires/achieves. What is important is that the player is hitting the ball a sufficient distance and consistently enough to play the game. The distance comes from the rotation and the body powering the swing rather than the arms, and the consistency comes from not rocking the weight right and left whilst expecting to keep the low point consistent.


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## bobmac (Oct 31, 2012)

Are we about to go down the 'I can find a picture of anything and cause an argument' route Bob?
		
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Me?
Never. 
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How many do you want ?
:rofl:


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## JustOne (Oct 31, 2012)

heheheh :thup:














I'm here all week..... bring on as many arguments as you like


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