# Osteomyology.



## williamalex1 (May 18, 2016)

I had a 45 minute session with an Osteomyologist today for my sore back . 
 I was pessimistic to start and still am, but my back does somehow feel slightly better .
 Seemingly I have torn 2 back muscles  [ can't recall their names] and have some scar tissue from previous injuries.
 But now 8 hours later I'm able to change my socks without my wife's help :whoo: .

 I'm also a good bit lighter , Â£55 to be exact . 

Anyone else tried this type of treatment ?.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2016)

Osteomyology is even less well regulated chiropractic. 

I wouldn't go near them, but glad it has done something for you. I expect you don't have any torn muscles, unless he tore them for you.


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## DCB (May 18, 2016)

Had to do a search as to what an osteomyologist is ......  Think I'll give them a mis &#128521;


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2016)

What made you go to 'a quack'?

Was it the inability of your GP to actually diagnose or solve/upgrade the problem?


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## williamalex1 (May 18, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Osteomyology is even less well regulated chiropractic. 

I wouldn't go near them, but glad it has done something for you. I expect you don't have any torn muscles, unless he tore them for you.
		
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Very cynical as expected, but if I could have got a doctors appointment then a referral to NHS Physiotherapist within a reasonable time I would have gladly taken that cheaper option. 

Sadly the first appointment available at my local surgery was 10 days away and only god knows when my Physio treatment would have been.  
 I have previously tried a private physio and even a chiropractor with no short term improvement .

So what is your diagnosis from afar, or do you have any last minute appointments available.


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## Foxholer (May 18, 2016)

Tried these?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36247599

Even if the symptoms don't go away, you won't care!


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## Rooter (May 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tried these?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36247599

Even if the symptoms don't go away, you won't care!
		
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I know a few fields round here where they grow...


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## williamalex1 (May 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			What made you go to 'a quack'?

Was it the inability of your GP to actually diagnose or solve/upgrade the problem?
		
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Desperation, been to docs and  had NHS physio many times over the years with no joy. 
I even offered to pay for a private MRI scan, but he didn't think it was needed


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## williamalex1 (May 18, 2016)

Rooter said:



			I know a few fields round here where they grow...
		
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They're kept in the dark and given a lot of manure, sound familiar :rofl:


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## PhilTheFragger (May 18, 2016)

having had a history of back problems and surgery 10 years ago, I spent 2 weeks in Stoke Mandeville about 12 months ago,
3 disc prolapses diagnosed by MRI but not considered operable.  The NHS physios do not practice manipulation, just exercises or heat treatment and are so run off their feet that they cant spend any quality time with you.

When I was released, still in considerable pain, I was recommended to see a local osteopath who had me sorted good & proper in 3 sessions, put back 2 of the prolapses and reduced the larger one so its only an occasional problem now.

Why cant the NHS do this, it works. and lets me get back to work and paying my taxes

waits of up to 4 months to see a physio are normal, so it is no wonder that people go looking elsewhere

Good luck William, hope it works for you


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## williamalex1 (May 18, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			having had a history of back problems and surgery 10 years ago, I spent 2 weeks in Stoke Mandeville about 12 months ago,
3 disc prolapses diagnosed by MRI but not considered operable.  The NHS physios do not practice manipulation, just exercises or heat treatment and are so run off their feet that they cant spend any quality time with you.

When I was released, still in considerable pain, I was recommended to see a local osteopath who had me sorted good & proper in 3 sessions, put back 2 of the prolapses and reduced the larger one so its only an occasional problem now.

Why cant the NHS do this, it works. and lets me get back to work and paying my taxes

waits of up to 4 months to see a physio are normal, so it is no wonder that people go looking elsewhere

Good luck William, hope it works for you
		
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Thanks Phil, i hope it works too.
 The guy was completely different from a physio or chiropractor.
 No cracking joints , rough massage treatment, ultra sound or electric shock muscle vibration methods . After the treatment his advice was don't stretch or exercise until the pain has completely gone, or it will cause more damage. If you do that you wont need to see me again . 

So hopefully BACK playing pain free on Friday scoring 100 net as usual.


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## Ethan (May 19, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Very cynical as expected, but if I could have got a doctors appointment then a referral to NHS Physiotherapist within a reasonable time I would have gladly taken that cheaper option. 

Sadly the first appointment available at my local surgery was 10 days away and only god knows when my Physio treatment would have been.  
 I have previously tried a private physio and even a chiropractor with no short term improvement .

So what is your diagnosis from afar, or do you have any last minute appointments available. 

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When people are twisting your neck and back, you should be skeptical. There have been people who attended chiropractors and other back crackers who got strokes through damages to arteries in the neck, as well as spinal cord injuries.

When you are dealing with an unregulated break-away group of practitioners, you should even more skeptical. 

I deal in science and data and therefore I am suspicious of all alternative medicine, of which this is part, because it is not based in science and in some cases incompatible with the laws of physics. Some alternative medicine is ot intrinsically harmful, such as homeopathy, although it might delay people getting proper medicine, but back and neck-cracking is indeed potentially harmful, and the claims that soft tissue and organ disease is connected to the alignment of the inter-vertebral joints is demonstrably nonsense. 

But it is your neck and back, so make your own choice and good luck.


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## williamalex1 (May 19, 2016)

Ethan said:



			When people are twisting your neck and back, you should be skeptical. There have been people who attended chiropractors and other back crackers who got strokes through damages to arteries in the neck, as well as spinal cord injuries.

When you are dealing with an unregulated break-away group of practitioners, you should even more skeptical. 

I deal in science and data and therefore I am suspicious of all alternative medicine, of which this is part, because it is not based in science and in some cases incompatible with the laws of physics. Some alternative medicine is ot intrinsically harmful, such as homeopathy, although it might delay people getting proper medicine, but back and neck-cracking is indeed potentially harmful, and the claims that soft tissue and organ disease is connected to the alignment of the inter-vertebral joints is demonstrably nonsense. 

But it is your neck and back, so make your own choice and good luck.
		
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He didn't do any neck or back cracking , he only worked on soft tissue by kneading and rubbing.
 As I said, I was and still am pessimistic, but it seems to have reduced my pain and improved my mobility.:whoo:


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## virtuocity (May 19, 2016)

Had a session and it didn't work for me on the first occasion.  Went back, but she wasn't available, so went to her colleague who is an osteopath.  He sorted out my lower back in 3 sessions.  I went from being unable to pick up my kids, to playing golf within 6 weeks.  Amazing.

This year, I've struggled with a really bad pain running from my shoulder to my neck and ear.  Went for a session on Friday and the pain is gone.  Going for another session on Friday to finish up.

Money well spent.


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## Ethan (May 19, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			He didn't do any neck or back cracking , he only worked on soft tissue by kneading and rubbing.
 As I said, I was and still am pessimistic, but it seems to have reduced my pain and improved my mobility.:whoo:
		
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And I hope it works for you. No desire to see it work out badly to prove a debating point!


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## ScienceBoy (May 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tried these?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36247599

Even if the symptoms don't go away, you won't care!
		
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That's Mycology, not myology


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## DCB (May 19, 2016)

Remember you can self refer for NHS physio up here. There should be a local centre that acts as a first point of call in your area.


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## williamalex1 (May 19, 2016)

DCB said:



			Remember you can self refer for NHS physio up here. There should be a local centre that acts as a first point of call in your area.
		
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I might be wrong, but I think appointments are only available for people who are currently employed , to get them back to work quickly.


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## DCB (May 19, 2016)

Check this out 
http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/your-health/health-services/msk-physiotherapy/


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## williamalex1 (May 19, 2016)

DCB said:



			Check this out 
http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/your-health/health-services/msk-physiotherapy/

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It doesn't seem to cover North Lanarkshire., but i just checked and there is one for my area, I'll check it out , thanks DCB :thup:


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			...
Why cant the NHS do this, it works. and lets me get back to work and paying my taxes
		
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I believe that it's purely for cost reasons!

Osteopathy has been given some credence by the NHS, though not in all (body) areas. 

I also believe that there's a degree of 'protective arrogance' within the medical profession that excludes those that haven't gone through the 'accepted' process! This seems to ignore that many significant advances were made by ignoring 'accepted' practice!


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## williamalex1 (May 19, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			It doesn't seem to cover North Lanarkshire., but i just checked and there is one for my area, I'll check it out , thanks DCB :thup:
		
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Looks like it only gives advice , but I now have a number I can call.  :thup:


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## Golfmmad (May 20, 2016)

This thread reminds me of when my wife was going through her cancer treatment. She was always pro active in alternative treatments, such as herbal teas, acupuncture and even considered a faith healer. During one of her consultations she asked if these would help towards her treatment. The consultant, in a very nice way said to her, "By all means feel free to try them and if you feel they are helping you, that can be a good thing, but will add, and can assure you, that if there is anything new and a wonder treatment then this Hospital would be the first to know about it."

Oh, and when I had a back problem, when I couldn't even bend down to pick my ball out of the cup after putting out, I went to see an Osteopath and was sorted within a week!


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## Ethan (May 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I believe that it's purely for cost reasons!

Osteopathy has been given some credence by the NHS, though not in all (body) areas. 

I also believe that there's a degree of 'protective arrogance' within the medical profession that excludes those that haven't gone through the 'accepted' process! This seems to ignore that many significant advances were made by ignoring 'accepted' practice!
		
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By 'accepted process' do you mean checking if it actually works and doesn't cause more harm than good? If so, I am all for the 'accepted process'. 

NICE, the NHS review body no longer recommends chiropractic, osteopathy or acupuncture for low back pain, which was the only thing osteopathy was ever thought to be possibly useful for. 

https://www.nice.org.uk/news/press-...ith-low-back-pain-says-nice-in-draft-guidance


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## Maninblack4612 (May 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			By 'accepted process' do you mean checking if it actually works and doesn't cause more harm than good? If so, I am all for the 'accepted process'. 

NICE, the NHS review body no longer recommends chiropractic, osteopathy or acupuncture for low back pain, which was the only thing osteopathy was ever thought to be possibly useful for. 

https://www.nice.org.uk/news/press-...ith-low-back-pain-says-nice-in-draft-guidance

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Some years back I had a problem with neck pain which went on for a long time & resisted all NHS treatment. I visited the Chiropractor my wife used & was very,  very,  sceptical.  Within 3 weeks I was much better & after a couple of months pain free.  So don't tell me it doesn't work,  it definitely wasn't going to get better by itself. Just before I saw him his wife,  a qualified MD as well as Chiropractor,  had done an informal study comparing relieve from painkillers with use of manipulation. The results appeared to demonstrate that manipulation worked much better. She sent her results to a medical publication,  don't know which one,  and they were ready to publish them. One or more of the drug companies got to hear of this & threatened to withdraw their advertising.  Her results were never published.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Some years back I had a problem with neck pain which went on for a long time & resisted all NHS treatment. I visited the Chiropractor my wife used & was very,  very,  sceptical.  Within 3 weeks I was much better & after a couple of months pain free.  So don't tell me it doesn't work,  it definitely wasn't going to get better by itself. Just before I saw him his wife,  a qualified MD as well as Chiropractor,  had done an informal study comparing relieve from painkillers with use of manipulation. The results appeared to demonstrate that manipulation worked much better. She sent her results to a medical publication,  don't know which one,  and they were ready to publish them. One or more of the drug companies got to hear of this & threatened to withdraw their advertising.  Her results were never published.
		
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It doesn't work. Ask NICE. They use science rather than unverifiable anecdotes. These stories about what happened to you or your friend or third cousin twice removed are neither data nor science. 

The journal probably didn't publish the so-called informal (code for crap?) study because it was rubbish. The pharma companies are not notified of forthcoming publications, and wouldn't threaten to withdraw advertising over something so trivial as that. But feel free to continue to believe in your conspiracy theory. 

Plenty of real scientists have done big formal studies which show that it doesn't work. Sorry.


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## williamalex1 (May 21, 2016)

It would have been nice if they had asked me, or other sufferers who have posted on here if it worked or not.
 BTW I'm still pain free after my treatment , if you're asking :thup:


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## Maninblack4612 (May 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



			It doesn't work. Ask NICE. They use science rather than unverifiable anecdotes. These stories about what happened to you or your friend or third cousin twice removed are neither data nor science. 

The journal probably didn't publish the so-called informal (code for crap?) study because it was rubbish. The pharma companies are not notified of forthcoming publications, and wouldn't threaten to withdraw advertising over something so trivial as that. But feel free to continue to believe in your conspiracy theory. 

Plenty of real scientists have done big formal studies which show that it doesn't work. Sorry.
		
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Another personal experience.  I suffered from a very painful left knee.  I visited an 85 year old osteopath recommended to me by her nephew. She used to treat successfully greyhounds & racehorses as well as humans,  the former being pretty immune to the placebo effect. She took one look at me from behind & asked if I carried anything heavy over my right shoulder. I did,  in an attempt to prevent a recurrence of tennis elbow caused by carrying a heavy briefcase.  She worked on my back for half an hour and I walked out completely pain free. The same osteopath treated a colleague who had driven his car into an engine block which had fallen off a lorry in front of him. He was aching all over. She treated him & told him to get up.  He said "I don't want to".  When asked why he said "I haven't felt this comfortable since the accident". 

DON'T TELL ME IT DOESN'T WORK.  The establishment may want it not to work but at least some of it does. You,  Ethan,  are typical of the know all,  mind closed to anything unorthodox,  type of person found in many professions.  Granted,  some of it is mumbo jumbo & some of the practitioners are charlatans,  but not all.  I don't care what the research says,  I have three personal experiences which say that some of these practitioners succeed where conventional medicine fails.


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## Maninblack4612 (May 21, 2016)

Ethan said:



*unverifiable anecdotes*

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I'm an honest person & have related three personal experiences.  There were other people who witnessed the rapid improvement brought about by these methods which you say don't work. This should prompt further investigation,  not ridicule.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 21, 2016)

I have had numerous back issues over the years due to playing hockey for over 20 years. My lower back was in bits with non stop pain. Have tried painkillers and anti inflam pills plus physio and exercise ( Pilates and Yoga ) and it's eased it at times. Seen a chiropractor and the pain is relieved for a good period of time - it works , there is no doubt it works. 

My wife also has back issues because of hockey and also sees a chiropractor and it also works for her 

One of our friends is a recently qualified chiropractor and he puts to the dismal of their practice from some doctors as pure arrogance and old age beliefs plus pressure from drug companies. 

There have been many cases where chiropractor has been proven to work without causing any damage for many people.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 21, 2016)

Ethan, See post 10

I cannot speak for Osteomyology, but standard Osteopathy certainly does work, If ever I have another back problem, I know who i'm gonna call, and is aint my GP

It wasnt that long ago that Doctors were prescribing cigarettes to help with lung problems.

last year salt was the big enemy, now its changed to sugar.  Things move on

Clearly we have an ageing population, many of these are no burden to the NHS at all, coz they all go and see their local private osteopath or chiropractor because they know they will get results and if they go to the GP, its a waste of time.  Maybe thats why the NHS is happy with the status quo


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## williamalex1 (May 21, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ethan, See post 10

I cannot speak for Osteomyology, but standard Osteopathy certainly does work, If ever I have another back problem, I know who i'm gonna call, and is aint my GP

It wasnt that long ago that Doctors were prescribing cigarettes to help with lung problems.

last year salt was the big enemy, now its changed to sugar.  Things move on

Clearly we have an ageing population, many of these are no burden to the NHS at all, coz they all go and see their local private osteopath or chiropractor because they know they will get results and if they go to the GP, its a waste of time.  Maybe thats why the NHS is happy with the status quo
		
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 Seemingly that's unverifiable anecdotes


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## Pathetic Shark (May 21, 2016)

"An ology?   You get an ology, you're a scientist!"


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## PhilTheFragger (May 21, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			"An ology?   You get an ology, you're a scientist!"   

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Someone is showing their age


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## williamalex1 (May 21, 2016)

Pathetic Shark said:



			"An ology?   You get an ology, you're a scientist!"   

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Get an AP , what's the prob,


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## Pathetic Shark (May 21, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Someone is showing their age  

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And pottery.  Don't forget Anthony, people will always need plates.


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## Ethan (May 22, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Another personal experience.  I suffered from a very painful left knee.  I visited an 85 year old osteopath recommended to me by her nephew. She used to treat successfully greyhounds & racehorses as well as humans,  the former being pretty immune to the placebo effect. She took one look at me from behind & asked if I carried anything heavy over my right shoulder. I did,  in an attempt to prevent a recurrence of tennis elbow caused by carrying a heavy briefcase.  She worked on my back for half an hour and I walked out completely pain free. The same osteopath treated a colleague who had driven his car into an engine block which had fallen off a lorry in front of him. He was aching all over. She treated him & told him to get up.  He said "I don't want to".  When asked why he said "I haven't felt this comfortable since the accident". 

DON'T TELL ME IT DOESN'T WORK.  The establishment may want it not to work but at least some of it does. You,  Ethan,  are typical of the know all,  mind closed to anything unorthodox,  type of person found in many professions.  Granted,  some of it is mumbo jumbo & some of the practitioners are charlatans,  but not all.  I don't care what the research says,  I have three personal experiences which say that some of these practitioners succeed where conventional medicine fails.
		
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IT DOESN'T WORK. Sorry. 

Funny how advocates of mumbo jumbo decry those who believe in science as closed minded. Perhaps better closed that someone conned into gullible magical thinking. Anyone who says 'I don't care what research says' is just such a person. Try a lucky rabbit's foot. That might work too.


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## Maninblack4612 (May 22, 2016)

Ethan said:



			IT DOESN'T WORK. Sorry. 

Funny how advocates of mumbo jumbo decry those who believe in science as closed minded. Perhaps better closed that someone conned into gullible magical thinking. Anyone who says 'I don't care what research says' is just such a person. Try a lucky rabbit's foot. That might work too.
		
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So I'm a liar,  kidding myself? So my very sore knee spontaneously recovered coincidentally while I was being treated by the phoney Osteopath. No way will I ever accept that.  There are some frauds out there & some talented people who can do things that convention medicine can't do.


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## Leftie (May 22, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			So I'm a liar,  kidding myself? So my very sore knee spontaneously recovered coincidentally while I was being treated by the phoney Osteopath. No way will I ever accept that.  There are some frauds out there & some talented people who can do things that convention medicine can't do.
		
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Sorry mate but it's so easy to be a quack now days ....

_"Training courses generally lead to a bachelorâ€™s degree in osteopathy (a BSc Hons, BOst or BOstMed) or a masters degree (MOst). Courses usually consist of four years of full-time training, five years part-time or a mixture of full or part-time. There are also courses with accelerated pathways for doctors and physiotherapists.

A degree course includes anatomy, physiology, pathology, pharmacology, nutrition and biomechanics, plus at least 1,000 hours of clinical training. Read more about the 11 UK institutions currently accredited to provide osteopathic training."_

But I suppose that doesn't really mean anything.  Who would willingly go through that knowing that they wouldn't make a (positive) difference?  

In my younger sporting days the changing rooms smelled of Horse Liniment and/or Deep Heat before or after the game.   
Now, apparently, to get over aches and pains by seeing an Osteopath it's all Snake Oil - according to some.  

A friend of the family who is an (now retired) osteopath who had clinics at two different private hospitals as well as his own private practice and taught at the British School of Osteopathy (busy man), was telling me in general terms one day of a client who came to him for treatment as her GP was unable to help her.  He examined her, diagnosed a tumour that her doctor and hospital had missed, and effectively saved her life.   

Anecdotal?  Of course it is - but, knowing both the Osteopath and, it turned out, the patient, what do I know?  

If "conventional" medicine fails me, I'll go for qualified Snake Oil (even with a rabbit's foot) every time.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2016)

Maninblack4612 said:



			So I'm a liar,  kidding myself? So my very sore knee spontaneously recovered coincidentally while I was being treated by the phoney Osteopath. No way will I ever accept that.  There are some frauds out there & some talented people who can do things that convention medicine can't do.
		
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The way that science works is that it looks at trials of various treatments compared to placebo or to standard of care. Evaluations of osteopathy, chiropractic and acupuncture have shown they are no better then getting up and moving around. The so-called science base of chiropractic and osteopathy are not in keeping with the laws of science. Some practitioners use the term osteopathy to charge more for physio, and that is fine, but the basic philosophy of osteopathy (as with chiropractic) claims that manipulating the back can affect all the other organs in the body, which is bollocks, no matter how many hours of training they do. Being trained in bollocks doesn't make it true. 

I know a few American doctors who have as their medical degree a Doctor of Osteopathy (DO). This is an equivalent to an MD issued by some medical schools in the mid-west, mostly. They also agree it is bollocks. 

If we relied on personal anecdote, then blow-letting, eye of newt and dancing naked in a full moon would all still be established treatments.


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## Foxholer (May 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			...Some practitioners use the term osteopathy to charge more for physio, and that is fine, but the basic philosophy of osteopathy (as with chiropractic) claims that manipulating the back can affect all the other organs in the body, which is bollocks, no matter how many hours of training they do.
		
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That has never been a claim made by any of the Chiropractors I've been successfully treated by! It may have been an original 'chiropractic' claim, but that has been dropped - just as 'Bleeding' is no longer standard practice for medical practitioners!


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## Ethan (May 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That has never been a claim made by any of the Chiropractors I've been successfully treated by! It may have been an original 'chiropractic' claim, but that has been dropped - just as 'Bleeding' is no longer standard practice for medical practitioners!
		
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But subluxation is still considered-by many to be the key problem which is managed by manipulation and there is no evidence it exists, is a problem if it did, or is treated by manipulation. The basic philosophy of chiropractic has not changed but they may talk less about the witchcraft aspects.


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## User62651 (May 23, 2016)

I just had 2 osteopath sessions for the first time ever re bad back and shoulders/hip, bad back comes and goes since 2008 prolapsed disc, but has been more jippy than normal of late from shed building and firewooding I think. Trouble for me was the back was getting much better before I saw the osteopath, this guy typically decried all conventional medicine and physiotherapy and I didn't really buy into it. I only went because my work healthcare scheme covered the cost and I was keen to see if there was anything in it as the back was really bad for loinger than normal before settling. The process is very relaxing however and I think that's where any perceived benefit lies, you feel relaxed after treatment and walk out feeling relaxed (rather than repaired) but to be honest a week later my back is still jippy as are my hips and shoulder joints. Really not sure about it, trouble is when you see a GP (I saw one earlier today) you just feel rushed, I wanted to chat over  a few things but I could sense impatience so summed up and got out, an osteopath or chiro session allows ample time to discuss problems better and chill out, which can be a great help in itself I think, at a cost of course. Not convinced on alternative medicine at all but happy to be open minded and at least try.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 23, 2016)

I have seen  a chiropractor and more recentl a sport physio for my lower back pains, don't even consider the GP. 
I also had a ruptured achilles tendon a few years ago. Doctor sent me to hospital, then to the consultant to be told "waiting list of up to 2 years, followed by surgery and plaster for 8 weeks then physio". They said they could do nothing for the partially healing and very sore and tight tendon. Gave up on the system, and went to an Accupuncturist. 2 visits later, pain was almost gone, tendon was healing, scar tissue lump diminishing rapidly and now there is no lump or pain. 
Other countries don't have our NHS, and they still heal people.....probably better and quicker.


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## Crazyface (May 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have had numerous back issues over the years due to playing hockey for over 20 years. My lower back was in bits with non stop pain. Have tried painkillers and anti inflam pills plus physio and exercise ( Pilates and Yoga ) and it's eased it at times. Seen a chiropractor and the pain is relieved for a good period of time - it works , there is no doubt it works. 

My wife also has back issues because of hockey and also sees a chiropractor and it also works for her 

One of our friends is a recently qualified chiropractor and he puts to the dismal of their practice from some doctors as pure arrogance and old age beliefs plus pressure from drug companies. 

There have been many cases where chiropractor has been proven to work without causing any damage for many people.
		
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no wonder you've back problems!! hockey....running around bent over...just asking for trouble. I'm surprised no one has invented longer sticks.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 23, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			no wonder you've back problems!! hockey....running around bent over...just asking for trouble. I'm surprised no one has invented longer sticks.
		
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The sport has given me all sorts of issues but thankfully they are easing up well - with the help of a chiropractor


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## Ethan (May 23, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ethan, See post 10

I cannot speak for Osteomyology, but standard Osteopathy certainly does work, If ever I have another back problem, I know who i'm gonna call, and is aint my GP

It wasnt that long ago that Doctors were prescribing cigarettes to help with lung problems.

last year salt was the big enemy, now its changed to sugar.  Things move on

Clearly we have an ageing population, many of these are no burden to the NHS at all, coz they all go and see their local private osteopath or chiropractor because they know they will get results and if they go to the GP, its a waste of time.  Maybe thats why the NHS is happy with the status quo
		
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Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders. 

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit, so we don't know why you got better. 

It is true to say that medicine has changed a lot over the years. This is learning and is a good thing. That learning has included the fact that smoking isn't good for the lungs and other things. The salt/fat/sugar debate is presented to the public by the Daily Mail as X good, Y evil. The actual scientific debate is a bit more nuanced.


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## Smiffy (May 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Osteomyology is even less well regulated chiropractic. 

I wouldn't go near them, but glad it has done something for you. I expect you don't have any torn muscles, unless he tore them for you.
		
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Ethan said:



			When people are twisting your neck and back, you should be skeptical. There have been people who attended chiropractors and other back crackers who got strokes through damages to arteries in the neck, as well as spinal cord injuries.

When you are dealing with an unregulated break-away group of practitioners, you should even more skeptical. 

I deal in science and data and therefore I am suspicious of all alternative medicine, of which this is part, because it is not based in science and in some cases incompatible with the laws of physics. Some alternative medicine is ot intrinsically harmful, such as homeopathy, although it might delay people getting proper medicine, but back and neck-cracking is indeed potentially harmful, and the claims that soft tissue and organ disease is connected to the alignment of the inter-vertebral joints is demonstrably nonsense. 

But it is your neck and back, so make your own choice and good luck.
		
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Ethan said:



			And I hope it works for you. No desire to see it work out badly to prove a debating point!
		
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Ethan said:



			By 'accepted process' do you mean checking if it actually works and doesn't cause more harm than good? If so, I am all for the 'accepted process'. 

NICE, the NHS review body no longer recommends chiropractic, osteopathy or acupuncture for low back pain, which was the only thing osteopathy was ever thought to be possibly useful for. 

https://www.nice.org.uk/news/press-...ith-low-back-pain-says-nice-in-draft-guidance

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Ethan said:



			It doesn't work. Ask NICE. They use science rather than unverifiable anecdotes. These stories about what happened to you or your friend or third cousin twice removed are neither data nor science. 

The journal probably didn't publish the so-called informal (code for crap?) study because it was rubbish. The pharma companies are not notified of forthcoming publications, and wouldn't threaten to withdraw advertising over something so trivial as that. But feel free to continue to believe in your conspiracy theory. 

Plenty of real scientists have done big formal studies which show that it doesn't work. Sorry.
		
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Ethan said:



			IT DOESN'T WORK. Sorry. 

Funny how advocates of mumbo jumbo decry those who believe in science as closed minded. Perhaps better closed that someone conned into gullible magical thinking. Anyone who says 'I don't care what research says' is just such a person. Try a lucky rabbit's foot. That might work too.
		
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Ethan said:



			The way that science works is that it looks at trials of various treatments compared to placebo or to standard of care. Evaluations of osteopathy, chiropractic and acupuncture have shown they are no better then getting up and moving around. The so-called science base of chiropractic and osteopathy are not in keeping with the laws of science. Some practitioners use the term osteopathy to charge more for physio, and that is fine, but the basic philosophy of osteopathy (as with chiropractic) claims that manipulating the back can affect all the other organs in the body, which is bollocks, no matter how many hours of training they do. Being trained in bollocks doesn't make it true. 

I know a few American doctors who have as their medical degree a Doctor of Osteopathy (DO). This is an equivalent to an MD issued by some medical schools in the mid-west, mostly. They also agree it is bollocks. 

If we relied on personal anecdote, then blow-letting, eye of newt and dancing naked in a full moon would all still be established treatments.
		
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Ethan said:



			But subluxation is still considered-by many to be the key problem which is managed by manipulation and there is no evidence it exists, is a problem if it did, or is treated by manipulation. The basic philosophy of chiropractic has not changed but they may talk less about the witchcraft aspects.
		
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Ethan said:



			Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders. 

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit, so we don't know why you got better. 

It is true to say that medicine has changed a lot over the years. This is learning and is a good thing. That learning has included the fact that smoking isn't good for the lungs and other things. The salt/fat/sugar debate is presented to the public by the Daily Mail as X good, Y evil. The actual scientific debate is a bit more nuanced.
		
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I felt like this about stack and tilt before I sat down with James and discussed it properly....


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## Rooter (May 23, 2016)

A question for Ethan, are you a fan of Osteomyology? I am not quite sure of your views on it...


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## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2016)

Ethan said:



			Phil

The point about anecdotes isn't that someone is telling porkies or is a fantasist. It is that individual cases and treatments are very individual. The specific circumstances of one case don't say much about the general application of a treatment to a broad population. In other words, your condition improved, but you don't know that it was due to the treatment, or whether it got better spontaneously, was already getting better, that other treatments you took before kicked in, that resting did the trick etc etc. That is why we do large scale controlled clinical trials. In every trial, even when people get a dummy pill, there are placebo responders. 

So 'It doesn't work' doesn't mean you didn't get better, it means that in larger trials there is no net benefit,* so we don't know why you got better*. 

.
		
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Hear what you say Ethan, but the highlighted sentence above is the clincher.


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## Ethan (May 24, 2016)

Rooter said:



			A question for Ethan, are you a fan of Osteomyology? I am not quite sure of your views on it...
		
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Yeah, love it. Hate Stack'n'tilt though, which ironically can make you need some physio.


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## Ethan (May 24, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hear what you say Ethan, but the highlighted sentence above is the clincher.
		
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To further illustrate, I have conducted studies where we have treated patients with new investigational medicines, some of whom have done well. I remember one trial for a debilitating condition after which I got a letter from one of the trial patients thanking us for the wonderful medicine we had given him and the great effect it had on his condition. 

I thanked him for his letter and wished him well, but did not tell him he had been on placebo the whole time. He is convinced this was a great medicine but had never had it. I bet he told his friends all about it, though.


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## Snelly (May 24, 2016)

I had a back problem for almost a year and saw three physiotherapists, an osteopath, an acupuncturist, a sports massage therapist and even in desperation, a chiropractor.  All diagnosed different things bar one physio who said it could be any number of causes so have an MRI - advice I didn't take for a year unfortunately. 

It became chronic and my wife who is a pharmacist and shares Ethans views on this subject, grasped the nettle, took charge and booked me into our local private hospital for a chat with a leading consultant locally for backs/osteo etc..  

He said all the "experts" I had seen previously were all making guesses on what was wrong to a greater or lesser extent and that furthermore, he had no definitive idea what the issue was as it could have been any one of a number of problems. 

However, he also said that after an MRI, he would in all likelihood tell me exactly what was wrong.  I had the scan the following day followed by a second session with the consultant.  He gave me an expert diagnosis and arranged for precisely the right treatment and I was fixed within 5 weeks.

This cost around Â£900 - a sum I had easily spent on previous sessions with physios etc over the past 9 months anyway.   

If anything like the problem I had occurs in future then I will find the best subject matter expert in our area and pay them to diagnose me.  I would advise anyone to do the same. 

And osteomyology sounds like complete nonsense, to be placed in the same bin as kinesiology and the like.  Utter bilge, designed to make money for people without the nouse to go through medical school.

See the top man or woman in your area, have an MRI and let them tell you the facts. Don't rely on the guesswork of someone who got their qualification from a Christmas cracker.


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## need_my_wedge (May 24, 2016)

Never heard of Osteomyology before this thread, but I have used Chiro's, Osteo's and physio's in the past. I hurt my back in a roller skating accident some 35 years ago and have had frequent back and neck pain ever since. In my own personal experience, aside from being prescribed some horrible drugs by the doctor (naproxen) which took the pain away, but caused some unpleasant side effects in the stomach, the chiro has always been the best relief. There are plenty of things in my life that do not aid back/ neck recovery - driving 3.5 hours every day to and from the office, sitting at a desk for 7 hours, getting thrown around at Aikido three nights a week, playing golf 3 or 4 times a week. The GP suggestion is if it hurts, don't do it, rest up, but that just seems to cause the body to stiffen up and seize up more in my experience. The chiro treatment releases the tightness and lessens the pain, whether it's "scientific" or not, I don't know, but is a much pleasanter experience than the scientific drugs given as an alternative. My chiro has never referred to his treatment affecting organs in the body, it involves a bit of manipulation, and massage. After 8 years using him as needed, I even trust him with the neck, which took a bit of time, but when it hurts, it bloody hurts and no amount of pain killer/ anti-inflammatory drugs keep it at bay. I'm sure that there are scientific means that work well in some cases, but I'm also sure that there are natural methods that work well in others.


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## Ethan (May 27, 2016)

Just seen a Facebook ad by a chiropractor near me. This is some of the stuff they are spouting:

http://www.dfchiropractic.com/what-is-chiropractic-care/

So stress and chemical imbalance can cause your spinal joints to get out of whack? Complete and utter crap.


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