# Perceived forgiveness.



## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Just having read through TomC's post on the S55's I see a lot of people saying that they think they mane a bit too muchi club for them...... 

Now each and everyone to their own but is this not what manufacturers are pushing so that they can seek specific target clubs to a specific side of the market.....
I'm more from the camp that of you spend enough to.e with something then you'll eventually learn to make it work..... 

Surely every club has forgiveness built into it.... I know from my own experience that if I catch a ball a little out towards the toe it won't fly as far but its a rare ocurrance... And ill know from the sting....  Equally its the same with one a little thin..... I'm sure more people could hit those pings more than they think.


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## One Planer (Oct 2, 2013)

kid2 said:



			Just having read through TomC's post on the S55's I see a lot of people saying that they think they mane a bit too muchi club for them...... 

Now each and everyone to their own but is this not what manufacturers are pushing so that they can seek specific target clubs to a specific side of the market.....
I'm more from the camp that of you spend enough to.e with something then you'll eventually learn to make it work..... 

Surely every club has forgiveness built into it.... I know from my own experience that if I catch a ball a little out towards the toe it won't fly as far but its a rare ocurrance... And ill know from the sting....  Equally its the same with one a little thin..... I'm sure more people could hit those pings more than they think.
		
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I agree 100% with this My view on this is if you get it into your head you can hit a specific club/set of irons, you've already lost.

I started to play MP32's off 18, dropped to 16. Moving from GI irons.

I then switched to MP63's. Wne from 16 to 14.

I may go out and buy a set of MP69's and see if I can get to 10 :rofl:

Joking aside. A friend of mine has the Ping Anser forged, previously had the S56, no issues hitting these either.


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## Junior (Oct 2, 2013)

Interesting post and I agree.   Golf can be more about how good your bad shots are.  Clubs dont need t be fogiving if you it them out of the screws all the time.


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## duncan mackie (Oct 2, 2013)

do you mean forgivingness?

whilst all my clubs live permenantly in the state of having been forgiven, this definitely isn't the case with some golfers - but is more to do with the golfer than the clubs


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## pendodave (Oct 2, 2013)

re. spending the time to get to use a club.

For most people, golf practice time is a finite (and often limited) resource. If you're spending time getting your irons working, you're not spending it on getting your chipping or putting working better. Wonder which would be most likely to reduce your scores ??

re. "forgiveness". This is a somewhat nebulous concept. The only example I've come across where someone has tried to measure it is the Maltby playability index. He has identified what he believes to be the key components of forgiveness (which I guess are open to debate) and then measures those parameters in a workshop and assigns an overall value to a club. Even if you don't agree with the specifics, the results can make 'interesting' reading if you like that kind of thing.

I would imagine that most of us make imperfect strikes most of the time. If more forgiving clubs go more nearly to the same place as well struck shots than less forgiving clubs, why wouldn't a handicap golfer seek them out ?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 2, 2013)

Why though? Why not take the forgiveness? what is the trade off?

Go on say it... "more workability"

If you can work the ball you can work it with a G25 or an MP-4. If that's the case then its all about looks. I think looks are VERY important but beating up my brother in law on the course is more important.

I am aware of what a hypocrite I look... Just playing devils advocate.


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 2, 2013)

I came back into the game last year with some old Mizuno Pro II blades. It became apparent that whilst I was getting my swing back these were going to be hard work. I switched to some ultra forgiving ping G5's which got me enjoying it again before going back to some more bladed s59's once I felt comfortable swinging a club again. All of the above were great when I hit it out of the middle, but the G5's really did help when I didn't strike it quite right. 

The Rocketblade tours I've got now seem to be the best of all the above. When I catch it out of the middle, it goes where I want it to and with whichever shape I intend (usually a slice  ). But when I catch it a bit thin, or a bit out of the toe, I still get good distance and the ball often ends up almost as close as if I'd have hit a great strike.

I'm maybe not the biggest 'purist' but would prefer to see my handicap coming down with a few mis-hits, as opposed to not actually scoring any better but hitting it a bit more flush. The way I see it, the more I play, the better I'll get, the more I'll hit it out of the middle which makes the forgiveness less relevant. But, until then, I'm perfectly happy to get a bit of a helping hand from technology.


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## garyinderry (Oct 2, 2013)

"the JPX-825 is the ultimate combination of amazing distance, extreme forgiveness, and great feel that will help you play better, more consistent golf today."

im in portugal playing golf atm. ive rented mizuno jpx 825 irons.  not really getting on with them to be honest.  ive found that they really do have a hot face.  the ball just springs off the face on small green side chips.  ive airmailed greens quite a few times with them.  i would say the one thing they do not allow is for consistent distances.

give me some forged offerings any day.   i shot 7over yesterday in case anyone thinks im just looking for an excuse for poor golf (by my standards)


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2013)

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve imo.

I've never owned GI clubs, though I've hit plenty. I've found I'm a good enough ball striker to use 'players' irons and the current combos are probably my optimum set-up. If I was playing for a living, I'd probably go for more forgiving ones. When I first bought some blades (TP9s from the original AG shop in Warrington) to practice with, a Pro, who also used the range, was using Callaway X-somethings. He stated he wanted as much forgiveness as poss. 

I don't really try to shape shots unless really necessary.

As for built in forgiveness, that's another term that needs definition. Blades don't need to be unforgiving - I found the Muiras Blades I had easier to hit than their CB201s off links fairways, but get into some juicy parkland rough and an 8-iron is the most that can be used compared to the CBs 6 or 5.  Flight is also something that needs to be considered. With blades, the CoG is relatively high for lower flight while GIs have lower CoG in order to get the ball airborne.

When I'm very old, I'll search out some Cally Hawkeyes to use. They are as forgiving as anyone needs and go miles! There may be a halfway stage of MX23/25, but as a recreational golfer with nothing really to prove, I'm happy with the slightly less forgiving, but more responsive irons I have.


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## tsped83 (Oct 2, 2013)

I think, regardless of ability, if you have the cash and the desire to hit blades S55's or whatever, then go for it. However, the foremost reason I play golf is because I enjoy it. So if a set (G20s for me) which may not look the best, but makes me look better when I thin/fat/toe/heel it, then that's what I'm going to use.

I want as much help as possible when playing, and GI irons do that on abundance.


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## duncan mackie (Oct 2, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			do you mean forgivingness?

whilst all my clubs live permenantly in the state of having been forgiven, this definitely isn't the case with some golfers - but is more to do with the golfer than the clubs 

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I couldn't believe that Mizuno's marketing department would also be using the wrong word, as implied in another post in this thread - but they do......many many times.

Amazing - it's a word more appropriate to conflict resolution, reconciliation and victim support than the marketing of golf equipment!


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## Region3 (Oct 2, 2013)

When I learnt to play I had blades smaller and thinner than the MP-69's I use now. I'm sure if GI irons were about then (about 3 or 4 years before I saw a Ping Eye iron) I would have improved my scores quicker, but wouldn't be as good a ball striker as I became.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I would rather know about it and not get as good a result when I make a bad contact.
If I'm playing to put food on the table then give me all the help you can, but while I'm only playing it for fun - where's the fun in getting a good result out of a bad process? Just the way I am.

Although people differ, I think I learn better and improve by being 'forced' to get somewhere near the middle of the club to get a decent result. I tend to 'only do enough' when playing sports, so would get lazy if I didn't need a good contact to get a good result.

How many people use the bumper bars at the bowling alley?

I know it's not the same, but that's an extreme example of the way I think.


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2013)

All I know on this subject is that when I had MP58's ( pretty bladey) I had to have my A game to get the best from them. If I wasn't swinging well it could get embarressing.
I switched to "Players cavity backs"(whatever they are..) in Cally s RazrX Tour and hit the sweetspot more often, hit the ball better and scored better.
Switched to the Orka's( not as bladey but not far off) and once again found myself in need of an A game. I've now got a 2nd hand set of AP2's and I'm back finding the sweetspot, scoring better and enjoying it more....
I think I'll just stick to what works from now on..


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## Robobum (Oct 2, 2013)

Is there any factual info into how far from the sweet spot you have to stray before getting a discernible loss in power?

I had ping eye 2s - and I can't say that 4i was any easier or harder to hit than my mp60.


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## Region3 (Oct 2, 2013)

Imurg said:



			All I know on this subject is that when I had MP58's ( pretty bladey) I had to have my A game to get the best from them. If I wasn't swinging well it could get embarressing.
I switched to "Players cavity backs"(whatever they are..) in Cally s RazrX Tour and hit the sweetspot more often, hit the ball better and scored better.
Switched to the Orka's( not as bladey but not far off) and once again found myself in need of an A game. I've now got a 2nd hand set of AP2's and I'm back finding the sweetspot, scoring better and enjoying it more....
I think I'll just stick to what works from now on..
		
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But are you really finding the sweet spot again, or do the clubs just not make it matter whether you do or not?


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2013)

Region3 said:



			But are you really finding the sweet spot again, or do the clubs just not make it matter whether you do or not?
		
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Honestly couldn't tell you Gary - all I know is I'm playing better with PCB's than with "bladeyness"

To be fair, even on a G20 you'll know if you've missed the middle of the bat. It might not make much difference to the outcome but you'll still know.


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## ger147 (Oct 2, 2013)

Region3 said:



			But are you really finding the sweet spot again, or do the clubs just not make it matter whether you do or not?
		
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The sweet spot is bigger on GI clubs and so is easier to find more of the time, certainly for average players like me.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 2, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Is there any factual info into how far from the sweet spot you have to stray before getting a discernible loss in power?

I had ping eye 2s - and I can't say that 4i was any easier or harder to hit than my mp60.
		
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http://www.ralphmaltby.com/

The above is the only scale I have ever been able to find.


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## Robobum (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



http://www.ralphmaltby.com/

The above is the only scale I have ever been able to find.
		
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Not sure I understand much of that - but it seems odd that what seem to be blades have a better "forgiveness rating" than certain clubs with a cavity in the same manufacturers' range?

Or have I read that wrong!!??


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## patricks148 (Oct 2, 2013)

Iâ€™ll give you an example of what I perceive as forgiveness.

Played a few holes last night and on the 17th had 145 yards to go to the flag for my approach to the green.  I nailed an 8 iron (or thought I did) it landed right where I was aimed and slightly pin high to about 5 feet. Looked at the mark on the club and it was â€¦ lets say closer to the toe than the middle.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



http://www.ralphmaltby.com/

The above is the only scale I have ever been able to find.
		
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Not necessarily factual - as different players have different misses, but objective.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 2, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Not sure I understand much of that - but it seems odd that what seem to be blades have a better "forgiveness rating" than certain clubs with a cavity in the same manufacturers' range?

Or have I read that wrong!!??
		
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Its ineradicably strange but the random anomalies with things like the Callaway X Forged have been explained away by vertical and horizontal forgiveness. For the most part it is interesting and his methods are interesting but I have to fall short of preaching about it or even using it to chose irons as there are some unexplainables. I have not found anything else that quantifies forgiveness though and I have looked plenty.


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## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Why though? Why not take the forgiveness? what is the trade off?

Go on say it... "more workability"

If you can work the ball you can work it with a G25 or an MP-4. If that's the case then its all about looks. I think looks are VERY important but beating up my brother in law on the course is more important.

I am aware of what a hypocrite I look... Just playing devils advocate.
		
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I agree Al..... Iv read so many debates about this workability thing I find it amusing...... Iv often read tge phrase you can't hit knock down shots with this club or that club because the centre of gravity is lower.... Or theres  too much offset that I can't bend the ball enough left or right... To me that's complete nonsense.... I think any club can be manipulated.....


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2013)

kid2 said:



			I agree Al..... Iv read so many debates about this workability thing I find it amusing...... Iv often read tge phrase you can't hit knock down shots with this club or that club because the centre of gravity is lower.... Or theres  too much offset that I can't bend the ball enough left or right... To me that's complete nonsense.... I think any club can be manipulated.....
		
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But, to be fair, it is easier with some than others....


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## Alex1975 (Oct 2, 2013)

Imurg said:



			But, to be fair, it is easier with some than others....
		
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Easier with your Orka than your Titleist would you say or a more extreme example.. G20 v MP 58 say?

Unrelated but I have to ask... What about the "awesomeness"? Pretty sure AP2 don't come with it as standard!


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## USER1999 (Oct 2, 2013)

Ive got a set of blades, some players cavity backs, some GI stuff. Some combo sets, etc. Tried it all, got the lot.

Insightful bit coming up (don't hold your breath).

If you are a good ball striker, it makes no odds what you hit. You can play anything.

If your ball striking is terrible, it makes no odds what you hit. No one has yet made a forgiving hozel, or bottom edge.
You also can play anything.

If you are a half decent ball striker then you're in no man's land. Buy something that works.it may not be what you would want though.


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Easier with your Orka than your Titleist would you say or a more extreme example.. G20 v MP 58 say?

Unrelated but I have to ask... What about the "awesomeness"? Pretty sure AP2 don't come with it as standard! 

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Hitting a draw/fade with the 58's or the Orka's was pretty straight-forward. With the Ap2's it's still relatively straight-forward although they want to hit straighter, I would suspect with G20 it would be pretty hard, do-able, but not impossible.

The Orka's are awesome, they truly are. 
They're not going anywhere, unless someone makes me an offer, but I can't get away with a miss hit or a slightly off square face. I was hitting some humungous hooks and slices, pushes and pulls but the AP2's just seem straighter - not that I can't hit a stinker with them too but it's doesn't smell as bad!

I think I'm in Murph's "No Mans Land", a half-decent ball striker. On a good day I can handle bladeyness, most of the time it's a hinderance


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## HughJars (Oct 2, 2013)

Gareth said:



			I agree 100% with this My view on this is if you get it into your head you can hit a specific club/set of irons, you've already lost.

I started to play MP32's off 18, dropped to 16. Moving from GI irons.

I then switched to MP63's. Wne from 16 to 14.

I may go out and buy a set of MP69's and see if I can get to 10 :rofl:

Joking aside. A friend of mine has the Ping Anser forged, previously had the S56, no issues hitting these either.
		
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maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 2, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

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There is always one..../sigh!


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## HughJars (Oct 2, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			There is always one..../sigh!
		
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It seems perfectly logical surely?


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## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Imurg said:



			But, to be fair, it is easier with some than others....
		
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Murg, I think its an awful lot down to sole design also..... Iv tried Ping G20's  Callaway Razr's Taylormade Burner 2.0's but i just could not seem to hit them as good as my own...... It may have had something to do with the sole being a little wider than im used to...

I guess if i had maybe played a full round with one or the other of the above i might have a change of opinion....Strangely i love the look of the Ping G20 Irons and im sure they would help in the long run if i was to play with them but Iv had them bounce off the ground coming into the ball when iv tried them..... 
I get more of a pinch with my FG Tours....


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 2, 2013)

I had TM Tour Preferred and these are classed as "Player Clubs". Not out and out blades and have a nice cavity and thinnish top line and I could hit them OK. I wanted to upgrade but went for the G25 to give me more forgiveness on my not so good ball striking days. It has helped but having played OK with the TP's I still think I'm capable of hitting a perceived better club. I know from the TP's that there is a built in degree of forgiveness but there is a noticeable trade off on distance on off centre hits whereas the G25's do give better results even off the toe although of course distance is still down


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2013)

kid2 said:



			Murg, I think its an awful lot down to sole design also..... Iv tried Ping G20's  Callaway Razr's Taylormade Burner 2.0's but i just could not seem to hit them as good as my own...... It may have had something to do with the sole being a little wider than im used to...
		
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Had these thoughts recently.
The sole on the Orka's is "waffer-thin" in the mid irons. 
Sole on the RXT's and AP2's is a little wider.


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## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

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 I cant get my head around these types of statements....... Handicap is not a reflection of how good or bad you are with irons.....
The strongest part of my game is my iron play... Putting and short game a close second...... 
Gareth has dropped 4 shots with 2 different sets of irons..... To me he is loosing shots off his handicap....

You can drop shots anywhere around the course from any handicap with any part of your game so to say his handicap is high because of his Irons i think is nuts!!!!!


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## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Had these thoughts recently.
The sole on the Orka's is "waffer-thin" in the mid irons. 
Sole on the RXT's and AP2's is a little wider.
		
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Your AP2's are very similar to Mine Murg..... their not to big or small.... Just right.....


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## Evesdad (Oct 2, 2013)

Well I need all the help I can get and for that reason next week I'm going g25.


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## USER1999 (Oct 2, 2013)

I have decided that irons are totally irrelevant.

Drive into the trees, wedge out, wedge on, putt. That is the way forwards. It matters not how many irons, or what make / brand you carry. They never get hit, any of them. 

Lessons should be on driver or putter only. 

Short game is irrelevant too, who can't hit the green with a wedge?


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## kid2 (Oct 2, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I have decided that irons are totally irrelevant.

Drive into the trees, wedge out, wedge on, putt. That is the way forwards. It matters not how many irons, or what make / brand you carry. They never get hit, any of them. 

Lessons should be on driver or putter only. 

Short game is irrelevant too, who can't hit the green with a wedge?
		
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Brilliant....:rofl::thup:


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

kid2 said:



			I cant get my head around these types of statements....... Handicap is not a reflection of how good or bad you are with irons.....
The strongest part of my game is my iron play... Putting and short game a close second...... 
Gareth has dropped 4 shots with 2 different sets of irons..... To me he is loosing shots off his handicap....

You can drop shots anywhere around the course from any handicap with any part of your game so to say his handicap is high because of his Irons i think is nuts!!!!!
		
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I cant get my head around these types of statements - great with irons, around green and putting.....handicap 11.


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## Robobum (Oct 3, 2013)

The more I look and think about this, the more I'm set on going to a combo set.

AP 1s in 3-6i & AP 2s 7-PW.

Hmmm, how much would I get for 2nd hand MP 60s??


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

Robobum said:



			The more I look and think about this, the more I'm set on going to a combo set.

AP 1s in 3-6i & AP 2s 7-PW.

Hmmm, how much would I get for 2nd hand MP 60s?? 

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 It'd probably be easy shift them anywayRob :lol:


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			I cant get my head around these types of statements - great with irons, around green and putting.....handicap 11. 

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I'm only playing 3 yrs my friend..... I would think after 3 yrs an 11 handicap is respectable enough..... Its also dropping...... But I still fail to see what point your trying to make..... You seem to think that handicap is relative to how forgiving or unforgiving clubs are......


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

kid2 said:



			I'm only playing 3 yrs my friend..... I would think after 3 yrs an 11 handicap is respectable enough..... Its also dropping...... But I still fail to see what point your trying to make..... You seem to think that handicap is relative to how forgiving or unforgiving clubs are......
		
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Damn! I've been playing the same length of time (... Just) and I'm only a 14 handicap



B+ ...... Must try harder


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

kid2 said:



			I'm only playing 3 yrs my friend..... I would think after 3 yrs an 11 handicap is respectable enough..... Its also dropping...... But I still fail to see what point your trying to make..... You seem to think that handicap is relative to how forgiving or unforgiving clubs are......
		
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Erm no, handicap is relative to how well you play.

You seem to think you're playing superbly with your blades, yet your handicap says otherwise.

Perhaps therefore, you know just maybe, a little bit of help and forgiveness might do the trick? 

It's not a difficult concept to grasp for most people.


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



*maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? *

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HughJars said:



			Erm no, handicap is relative to how well you play.

You seem to think you're playing superbly with your blades, yet your handicap says otherwise.

Perhaps therefore, you know just maybe, a little bit of help and forgiveness might do the trick? 

It's not a difficult concept to grasp for most people.
		
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If handicap is relative to how well you play then why make a statement about more forgiving clubs..... Maybe shots are lost off the tee..... Its easy to do..... 
Secondly  I don't play blades....  I play cavity backs...... So I would think I still have help if I need it......
I'm not denying some or even I don't need help every now and again but to make a statement that more forgiving clubs will make you better is innaccurate in my opinion....


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2013)

Robobum said:



			The more I look and think about this, the more I'm set on going to a combo set.

AP 1s in 3-6i & AP 2s 7-PW.

Hmmm, how much would I get for 2nd hand MP 60s?? 

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You could just buy the 3-6 in something like MP54 

Or test drive a 'build your own' combo set.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

kid2 said:



			[/B]

I'm not denying some or even I don't need help every now and again *but to make a statement that more forgiving clubs will make you better is innaccurate in my opinion.*...
		
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Apologies I was confusing you with the other guy who thinks he's smashing it round with blades. The FG Tours are hardly GI irons, but anyway, if you think more forgiveness won't help you reduce your handicap, then good luck with that. 

Better have a word with Ping, Callaway, Titleist, Cobra etc while you're at it, seems they are all wrong too


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## Robobum (Oct 3, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			You could just buy the 3-6 in something like MP54 

Or test drive a 'build your own' combo set.
		
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Oooh they look nice


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Oooh they look nice 

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A mate made up a MP30/33 combo set some years ago that he's only just moved on. I think MP30s were a previous equivalent of the 60s. I had a set that were great, apart from the fugly PW - a Mizzy trait back then.


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## garyinderry (Oct 3, 2013)

in terms of forgiveness, how much does a GI club save you from hitting it slightly thin or fat?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

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Gareth is a 14 handicap, that makes him a solid mid handicap not a high handicap. You come across like you just joined the post to have a dig and its this kind of posting that is seeing people leave the forum or not post, grow up! I am pretty sure he makes it clear that he find the center of the club, if that is the case then what the hell would GI clubs do for him? Did you mean to be rude? did you want to boost your self? did you not think your question through? It really is getting old having quality posts dragged down because people like you feel the need to have a dig to someone who is making a relevant point... do you really think GI clubs would suddenly change him into a low handicap? You really go in for what the OEMs are telling you?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Oooh they look nice 

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The MP-54 look way way nicer in the flesh. Worth a look if your in the market.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Gareth is a 14 handicap, that makes him a solid mid handicap not a high handicap. You come across like you just joined the post to have a dig and its this kind of posting that is seeing people leave the forum or not post, grow up! I am pretty sure he makes it clear that he find the center of the club, if that is the case then what the hell would GI clubs do for him? Did you mean to be rude? did you want to boost your self? did you not think your question through? It really is getting old having quality posts dragged down because people like you feel the need to have a dig to someone who is making a relevant point... *do you really think GI clubs would suddenly change him into a low handicap? You really go in for what the OEMs are telling you?*

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yes. Up until a year ago I was a custom fitter, time and time again you'd see folks wanting to buy clubs they couldn't get the best out of if they stood smashing balls all day.  Luckily there were enough players who are open minded enough to try most things and find what works best, other just can't stop their ego overcoming their ability.

He doesn't make anything clear, he *states* he finds the middle of the club, his high handicap suggests that if that's the case, then he has serious issues elsewhere. Posts like his do no service to players who want to improve and need good sensible advice. His "advice" is nothing more than an over-inflated ego talking. 

As for the forum, over-zealous moderating seems to have a lot to do with it, and cliqueyness.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			yes. Up until a year ago I was a custom fitter, time and time again you'd see folks wanting to buy clubs they couldn't get the best out of if they stood smashing balls all day.  Luckily there were enough players who are open minded enough to try most things and find what works best, other just can't stop their ego overcoming their ability.

He doesn't make anything clear, he *states* he finds the middle of the club, his high handicap suggests that if that's the case, then he has serious issues elsewhere. Posts like his do no service to players who want to improve and need good sensible advice. His "advice" is nothing more than an over-inflated ego talking. 

As for the forum, over-zealous moderating seems to have a lot to do with it, and cliqueyness.
		
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Gareth never posts with ego.. I have never seen it. He does not advise others he tells of his own experience. His numbers show that he makes the very best of his swing speed, launch angle and so on... If he finds the middle of the bat there is not a club made that will help him. You know this though! You know how GI clubs work...

One question though... what is the mid point between 28 and 0?


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Gareth never posts with ego.. I have never seen it. He does not advise others he tells of his own experience. His numbers show that he makes the very best of his swing speed, launch angle and so on... If he finds the middle of the bat there is not a club made that will help him. You know this though! You know how GI clubs work...

One question though... what is the mid point between 28 and 0?
		
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Go back and read kid2's post and Gareth's reply. That's not advice then? 

"more people could hit them (ping s55) than they think".  Well from my experience, LESS people can hit a blade than the think.

Gareth claims to have been playing 3 years, has tried ONE set of GI clubs when he was a rabbit, and since then blades. How exactly is he qualified to claim that most players would be able to hit blades?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

And the mid point between 28 and 0 is?.... 28 divided by 2?


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			And the mid point between 28 and 0 is?.... 28 divided by 2?
		
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What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

So, what you're saying is that a newish player, who hasn't tried many clubs, and has a high handicap, is more likely correct to give his bad advice, than a recent club fitter who has tried them all, and has seen the difference it makes to players?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

So, what you're saying is that a newish player, who hasn't tried many clubs, and has a high handicap, is more likely correct to give his bad advice, than a recent club fitter who has tried them all, and has seen the difference it makes to players?
		
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And the mid point between 28 and 0 is?.... 28 divided by 2? 


Did you have to give up club fitting because you did not get along with any of your customers by any chance? 


You just want to be rude done you? Your here for your own amusement yes?!


28 divided by 2 please?


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## Twire (Oct 3, 2013)

OK lets not get personal, this thread has been going along nicely.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			And the mid point between 28 and 0 is?.... 28 divided by 2? 


Did you have to give up club fitting because you did not get along with any of your customers by any chance? 


You just want to be rude done you? Your here for your own amusement yes?!


28 divided by 2 please?
		
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It's 14. No I gave up cos the pay was poor,  I got great feedback in that job, and have largely worked with the public most of my life - though thankfully not now. 

And no I don't want to be rude, nor have I been, but I hate people dressing up their opinion as good advice, when - especially in this case - it is terrible advice. 

Could a high handicapper use blades effectively? Of course, but the other 99% will just make the game more difficult.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Twire said:



			OK lets not get personal, this thread has been going along nicely.
		
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ty, the last post couldnt be more ironic.


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## duncan mackie (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			And the mid point between 28 and 0 is?.... 28 divided by 2?
		
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in the context of handicap distribution the mid point is around 21

in the context of ball striking capability (ie in terms of difficulty and competence) it's about 9 ie with a bit of work most who can strike the ball OK can get to 9 easily enough......and with a good short game they can get to 5. Then the *hard work* starts!

FWIW I agree completely with Hugh's observations here - but having also been slated for posting about reality a few months ago I generally leave such discussions alone because, apparently, this is a 'support group' not a reality 'show' .....


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Gareth claims to have been playing 3 years, has tried ONE set of GI clubs when he was a rabbit, and since then blades. How exactly is he qualified to claim that most players would be able to hit blades?
		
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First things first. 

Neither of the players clubs I've owned have been blades. MP32's are a cut muscle back and my MP63's are a Muscle cavity.

Secondly.

When, at any point, did I say I was was qulified? I have something called an opinion, which, the last time I checked, I was entitled to.

Third, and finally.

In my *opinion*, any one can hit any club they like. I personally have no issue. A heavy contact with a GI iron is exaclty the same as a blade. A thinned shot with a GI iron , is still thin regardless of the club.

As for missing the sweetspot. If you miss the sweet spot with a GI iron, you've still missed it. Granted you will get a better result with a GI iron, but you still lose distance when compared to a shot out  of the screws.

I would venture, and again, this is my opinion, that if you were to miss the sweet spot of a 7 iron, in both GI and equivielnt player club, the distance between the 2 balls would be no more than 10 yards. I can say this with some form of certainty as I have experoenced this switching from my TM R7 irons to MP32's.

I hope this clears my point up.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			First things first. 

Neither of the players clubs I've owned have been blades. MP32's are a cut muscle back and my MP63's are a Muscle cavity.

Secondly.

When, at any point, did I say I was was qulified? I have something called an opinion, which, the last time I checked, I was entitled to.

Third, and finally.

In my *opinion*, any one can hit any club they like. I personally have no issue. A heavy contact with a GI iron is exaclty the same as a blade. A thinned shot with a GI iron , is still thin regardless of the club.

As for missing the sweetspot. If you miss the sweet spot with a GI iron, you've still missed it. Granted you will get a better result with a GI iron, but you still lose distance when compared to a shot out  of the screws.

I would venture, and again, this is my opinion, that if you were to miss the sweet spot of a 7 iron, in both GI and equivielnt player club, the distance between the 2 balls would be no more than 10 yards. I can say this with some form of certainty as I have experoenced this switching from my TM R7 irons to MP32's.

I hope this clears my point up.
		
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I appreciate you expressing your _opinion_ Gareth.

In my _qualified experience_ however, your opinion is incorrect.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			in terms of forgiveness, how much does a GI club save you from hitting it slightly thin or fat?
		
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Couldn't see a reply to this, though it may have got lost in the Hugh/Alex 'debate' (I go with Hugh btw - my ego playing clubs I prefer the look/feel of probably costs me a shot or maybe 2 a round, but I'm 'happy' with that).

I don't think it prevents thins immediately. Wide sole (as in G10, for example) is likely to help prevent some fats (not those caused by over-steep swings though). The effect of having more confidence in the connection (fewer fats) could well mean that fewer thins happen because the aim is adjusted. Main effect seems to be the relative consistency of result when the sweet spot is missed - so if a centred strike goes 150, and off-centred one could go 135 with GI club rather than the 110 with 'player' clubs or 80  with blades!


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## Snelly (Oct 3, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			If you are a good ball striker, it makes no odds what you hit. You can play anything.

.
		
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I am sorry Murph but I have to disagree.  I am quite a good ball striker and have been playing for 30 odd years, most of that with a low handicap and what I have used during various points (corresponding with my level of play) in that time has had a considerable effect on specifically, the chances of hitting a good shot.

I agree with you though that when you get to a certain level, you can use anything. When I was at my best (late 80's) I was using Titleist Tour Model Forged and they were like butter knives but I never had a problem at all.    And I also completely agree that if you are really no good, then the clubs are utterly irrelevant and no manufacturer can give you a club to make you better.  it just doesn't happen.

At my current level of play though, I think it does come into the equation.  I got some Mizuno blades from Rick this year and without a shadow of a doubt, they made golf significantly harder than it was with my Callaway X-16 pro irons.   In addition, I am finding it easier to get a good score with more good iron shots using Ping Zing 2's than with the Callaways.   Maybe I am just in that middle ground that you talk about?  I am if we agree that the middle ground starts at a lower handicap I guess?

Some of this is psychological I would think but not all.   I can hit a good shot with a Mizuno bladed iron of course, but I am certain that I have a higher chance of doing so with a Ping Zing in my hand.  No doubt about it. It is easier.  It is more forgiving. 

As I have said before, blades are for people who like blades and good luck to you all with them.  Enjoy.  But in my experience which is pretty extensive, they make golf a little bit harder.   I will argue all day (or until I am bored) with anyone who disagrees because this is a fact.  Not just an opinion.


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			In my _qualified experience_ however, your opinion is incorrect.
		
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FWIW an MP63 is nothing like a blade :thup: 

In your _quailfied experience_ then, does that mean *all* handicap golfers should use GI/SGI irons as, well, we don't hit the sweet spot every time?

I don't need much pushing to get me to post pictures on here, but, just to prove a point:

Exibit A:







Exibit B:







Exibit C:







Exibit D:







Exibit E:











.......... .And I conclude that it was Professor Plum, in the dining room, with the candle stick 

Again, FWIW, I was professionally fitted for these irons (MP63) eaarlier this year.

At the fitting, the fitter (.... Also a teaching pro) asked if I was sure these were what I was after. After hitting a few balls with impact tape on the face, he said I would have no issues.

Pictures courtesy of a 14 H/C chomper who, plainly, can't his his irons


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## mikee247 (Oct 3, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I am sorry Murph but I have to disagree.  I am quite a good ball striker and have been playing for 30 odd years, most of that with a low handicap and what I have used during various points (corresponding with my level of play) in that time has had a considerable effect on specifically, the chances of hitting a good shot.

I agree with you though that when you get to a certain level, you can use anything. When I was at my best (late 80's) I was using Titleist Tour Model Forged and they were like butter knives but I never had a problem at all.    And I also completely agree that if you are really no good, then the clubs are utterly irrelevant and no manufacturer can give you a club to make you better.  it just doesn't happen.

At my current level of play though, I think it does come into the equation.  I got some Mizuno blades from Rick this year and without a shadow of a doubt, they made golf significantly harder than it was with my Callaway X-16 pro irons.   In addition, I am finding it easier to get a good score with more good iron shots using Ping Zing 2's than with the Callaways.   Maybe I am just in that middle ground that you talk about?  I am if we agree that the middle ground starts at a lower handicap I guess?

Some of this is psychological I would think but not all.   I can hit a good shot with a Mizuno bladed iron of course, but I am certain that I have a higher chance of doing so with a Ping Zing in my hand.  No doubt about it. It is easier.  It is more forgiving. 

As I have said before, blades are for people who like blades and good luck to you all with them.  Enjoy.  But in my experience which is pretty extensive, they make golf a little bit harder.   I will argue all day (or until I am bored) with anyone who disagrees because this is a fact.  Not just an opinion.
		
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I feel this sums it up in my experience also but Im open to more discussion on the matter!  Having used blades in the past plus a set of Mizzies that sit in the garage , I find my i20's offer me more forgiveness on not so sweet strikes. That said the shot shaping ability is better with a bladish iron Ive used in the past. I dont think I'm good enough personally to generate a consistent strike every time for a blade to utilise its ability but thats me at this moment in time. 

For the record Im not sure why people get so flustered when others make comments... I cant see any personal attacks going on here....  If you come on a forum then people will have opinion and some might not express them to how you might like. So dont come on a forum then... For gods sake lets not overly moderate (I speak from professional experience) these things or it will be come very dull without anyone expressing an opinion or disagreeing on anything.   I think Hugh offers some valuable and professional advice that is worth listening to and is his opinion. :thup:


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## JustOne (Oct 3, 2013)

Snelly said:



*I am sorry Murph but I have to disagree.*  I am quite a good ball striker and have been playing for 30 odd years, most of that with a low handicap and what I have used during various points (corresponding with my level of play) in that time has had a considerable effect on specifically, the chances of hitting a good shot.

*I agree with you though that when you get to a certain level, you can use anything*. When I was at my best (late 80's) I was using Titleist Tour Model Forged and they were like butter knives but I never had a problem at all.    And I also completely agree that if you are really no good, then the clubs are utterly irrelevant and no manufacturer can give you a club to make you better.  it just doesn't happen.
		
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He's at it again.......


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## tsped83 (Oct 3, 2013)

Can people not just use what they want to use? Regardless of whether or not they're the best fit for them and their handicap/ability?

I use big fat G20s, I love them, they smoke. I wouldn't dream of hitting a blade or players iron, but if I chose to (albeit unwisely in my opinion) then who should care other than me? If I want to make things a little bit more challenging than using shovels, then good for me. 

I would like to add a general disclaimer to this post: if you do not use Ping G20 irons then you are plainly an idiot.


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2013)

Snelly said:



			As I have said before, blades are for people who like blades and good luck to you all with them.  Enjoy.  But in my experience which is pretty extensive, they make golf a little bit harder.   I will argue all day (or until I am bored) with anyone who disagrees because this is a fact.  Not just an opinion.
		
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If you want time off for lunch (or boredom) I'm happy to step in! 

I've played several sets of blades - TP9s, Muiras, MP37s and Vega V-Muscles. A joy to hit, but were costing me several shots a round - even as a relatively good ball-connector (if maybe not striker). Current Combo set works very well.

In the same way as many of you will find, on Monday, that heather means 9-iron at best, any blade stronger than a 8 is no use from juicy parkland grass. 

Gareth. Those are very good contact marks. The Pro was right to question/challenge you though and doing so simply stresses Hugh's point. You may be correct that anyone can hit blades, but hitting them well is a different story.

Btw. If you are striking the ball that well, why are you off 14? Dodgy putting? Short Game woes?


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

Click to expand...




HughJars said:



			Go back and read kid2's post and Gareth's reply. That's not advice then? 

"more people could hit them (ping s55) than they think".  Well from my experience, LESS people can hit a blade than the think.

Gareth claims to have been playing 3 years, has tried ONE set of GI clubs when he was a rabbit, and since then blades. How exactly is he qualified to claim that most players would be able to hit blades?
		
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 Hugh, I think your getting your wires crossed somewhere pal...... It was me that said more people could probably play them more than they think..... And it was also me that said I was only playing 3 yrs.......

I respect that you've been a club fitter but the reason that I posted the thread was in my Olli ion  GI clubs are being pushed more and more by manufacturers....  This year's new model X is 8% more forgiving than last years Y...... Its this type of tripe that sees players new to the game get rid of clubs that there's nothing wrong with... I don't buy into it a whole lot but if you take the Maltby ratings which are scientific to say the least you would see that Pings S56 have a higher rating than some GI clubs....

Also you may or may not agree but those S55 are night and day different to a proper blade... As are my Wilson FG Tours as are Titleists AP2's........ The resin I think maufacturers are saying there's more forgiveness in such an iron in my view is to get more people buying them....... 
Also I think that club fitting can be a little miss leading in way...... Your either on a perfectly flat mat or a perfectly flat range...... That's fine for that hour or 2 while getting fitted..... When have you see  a perfect lie on a course.... Even tee boxes are not level which kind of goes against being fitted... I can see the advantage of getting a shaft fit for your speed but surely at a club golfers level theres a bit of a grey area as regards lie and loft....


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## Snelly (Oct 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			He's at it again....... 

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I am starting to think that you're not very bright...


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## JustOne (Oct 3, 2013)

Snelly said:



			I am starting to think that you're not very bright...
		
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Get in line mate.... you're about 300th in the queue :thup:


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## patricks148 (Oct 3, 2013)

kid2 said:



			Hugh, I think your getting your wires crossed somewhere pal...... It was me that said more people could probably play them more than they think..... And it was also me that said I was only playing 3 yrs.......

I respect that you've been a club fitter but the reason that I posted the thread was in my Olli ion  GI clubs are being pushed more and more by manufacturers....  This year's new model X is 8% more forgiving than last years Y...... Its this type of tripe that sees players new to the game get rid of clubs that there's nothing wrong with... I don't buy into it a whole lot but if you take the Maltby ratings which are scientific to say the least you would see that Pings S56 have a higher rating than some GI clubs....

Also you may or may not agree but those S55 are night and day different to a proper blade... As are my Wilson FG Tours as are Titleists AP2's........ The resin I think maufacturers are saying there's more forgiveness in such an iron in my view is to get more people buying them....... 
Also I think that club fitting can be a little miss leading in way...... Your either on a perfectly flat mat or a perfectly flat range...... That's fine for that hour or 2 while getting fitted..... When have you see  a perfect lie on a course.... Even tee boxes are not level which kind of goes against being fitted... I can see the advantage of getting a shaft fit for your speed but surely at a club golfers level theres a bit of a grey area as regards lie and loft....
		
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How come you keep saying you have only been playing 3 years when you joined here in feb 2009


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

Click to expand...

 Took it up may 09 pal.... Ruptured my right Achilles tendon may 10th 09 playing ball...... Spent June,July,august and some of September that year in a cast..... Swung a club in competition of march the following year 2010...... Played all that year all 2011 and at the start of 2012 in february I ruptured my left Achilles tendon plating ball again...... Spent march April may June out in a cast..... Had physio after that for 2 months o that put pay to 2012..... I'm back fit again for this seasn so if I was to break it down I ould say Iv been playing competitively for about 38 months or so...:lol:



patricks148 said:



			How come you keep saying you have only been playing 3 years when you joined here in feb 2009

Click to expand...


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## richy (Oct 3, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			How come you keep saying you have only been playing 3 years when you joined here in feb 2009

Click to expand...

I was just about to post the same thing. 

Unless he posted on here for a year before he started playing


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## JustOne (Oct 3, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			How come you keep saying you have only been playing 3 years when you joined here in feb 2009

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Kid2, it doesn't matter what you post on here there's always someone trying to catch you out!!! :rofl:

lesson learned?


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2013)

richy said:



			I was just about to post the same thing. 

Unless he posted on here for a year before he started playing
		
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RICKYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY if there is trouble you will sniff it out!


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## richy (Oct 3, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			RICKYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY if there is trouble you will sniff it out!
		
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er ok


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			FWIW an MP63 is nothing like a blade :thup:
		
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it is very much like a blade indeed. No cavity, and one step down from Mizunos pure blades in a line-up that contains 7 different iron sets. Pretty damned bladey imo, and in most peoples it would be fair to say.


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## HughJars (Oct 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Exibit E:











.......... .And I conclude that it was Professor Plum, in the dining room, with the candle stick 

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Well I understand the candlestick analogy, you're all over the face there.


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

​


HughJars said:



			Well I understand the candlestick analogy, you're all over the face there.
		
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.... And the main concentration of strikes are where?


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## DCB (Oct 3, 2013)

O Flopshot, Flopshot! wherefore art thou Flopshot?


Do I need to stop off at Asda and pick up the nibbles for tonight or has this run its course ? Can peopole just agree to disagree about what is best (or isn't best) for each others games. It's something we do for enjoyment. If having a bag of nice clubs is part of that, so be it. Live and let live :lol:

ps Gareth, you really do need to take better care of your clubs, that's disgraceful keeping those Mizzies in that state


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

DCB said:



			ps Gareth, you really do need to take better care of your clubs, that's disgraceful keeping those Mizzies in that state 

Click to expand...

Apologies David, I'll get the warm water and gun oil on them as soon as I get home tonight 





..... And if you're getting nibbles, please pick me up some popcorn :thup:


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## JustOne (Oct 3, 2013)

You've got a lot of sweetspot hits there..... surrounded with a lot of miss-hits 

Have you thought about a set of Dunlops? :whoo:


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You've got a lot of sweetspot hits there..... surrounded with a lot of miss-hits 

Have you thought about a set of Dunlops? :whoo:
		
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Give me a break James! This was taken at the range, during an evening in May after hitting 100 baws with a 6 iron grooving swing changes from my pro. 

As for the Dunlops, I could be tempted but I already have my eye in a lovely set of Slazenger irons :thup:


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## patricks148 (Oct 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Give me a break James! This was taken at the range, during an evening in May after hitting 100 baws with a 6 iron grooving swing changes from my pro. 

As for the Dunlops, I could be tempted but I already have my eye in a lovely set of Slazenger irons :thup:
		
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Forget the Dunlop and slazengers what you need old boy is a nice set of TM r7 GI irons they can be got quite cheap i'm told.

They will do wonders for that high handicap of yours


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Forget the Dunlop and slazengers what you need old boy is a nice set of TM r7 GI irons they can be got quite cheap i'm told.

They will do wonders for that high handicap of yours

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip Patrick :thup: ........... Hang on a minute


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2013)

Gareth said:



			As for the Dunlops, I could be tempted but I already have my eye in a lovely set of Slazenger irons :thup:
		
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Try these then!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MaxFli-Dunlop-Australian-Blade-Forged-Iron-Set-2-SW-10-Clubs-/251350445170

Should test the forgiving-ness!


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## kid2 (Oct 3, 2013)

richy said:



			I was just about to post the same thing. 

Unless he posted on here for a year before he started playing
		
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Took it up may 09 pal.... Ruptured my right Achilles tendon may 10th 09 playing ball...... Spent June,July,august and some of September that year in a cast..... Swung a club in competition of march the following year 2010...... Played all that year all 2011 and at the start of 2012 in february I ruptured my left Achilles tendon plating ball again...... Spent march April may June out in a cast..... Had physio after that for 2 months o that put pay to 2012..... I'm back fit again for this season so if I was to break it down I should say Iv been playing competitively for about 38 months or so...


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## One Planer (Oct 3, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Try these then!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MaxFli-Dunlop-Australian-Blade-Forged-Iron-Set-2-SW-10-Clubs-/251350445170

Should test the forgiving-ness!
		
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I couldn't possibly hit those off my handicap Foxy. 

It appears I need to find a set of clubs with a face the size of a frying pan. Have sole as thick as a loaf of bread with a cavity back the size akin to something seen on the surface of the moon to make sure I hit the sweet spot!!






That'll be a set of Ping K15's then


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 4, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Give me a break James! This was taken at the range, during an evening in May after hitting 100 baws with a 6 iron grooving swing changes from my pro. 

As for the Dunlops, I could be tempted but I already have my eye in a lovely set of Slazenger irons :thup:
		
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So the sweetspot hits were the Pro demonstrating and the others were you right


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			So the sweetspot hits were the Pro demonstrating and the others were you right 

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:rofl:

If I said it was the other way around, would you believe me..........


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## HughJars (Oct 4, 2013)

Gareth said:



​

.... And the main concentration of strikes are where?
		
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You understand the principle you are arguing against here right?


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## Snelly (Oct 4, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Try these then!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MaxFli-Dunlop-Australian-Blade-Forged-Iron-Set-2-SW-10-Clubs-/251350445170

Should test the forgiving-ness!
		
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Australian Blades were lovely!  

Unless you thinned one.  Then you needed reconstructive wrist surgery and a slug of methadone.


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

HughJars said:



			You understand the principle you are arguing against here right?
		
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Evidentley not.

Would you care to remove my blinkers and enlighten me?


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## HughJars (Oct 4, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Evidentley not.

Would you care to remove my blinkers and enlighten me?
		
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Well apparently you wouldn't benefit from GI irons because you flush your irons every time. Then post a pic where you have a ball pattern all over the face, some pretty outlying. It's evident you have a lot of mis-hits.

Still you carry on in dreamland, to be honest with your attitude, I have no desire to see you improve.


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Well apparently you wouldn't benefit from GI irons
		
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When did I say I wouldn't benefit?  



HughJars said:



			because you flush your irons every time
		
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Again, when did I say this? I find the middle of the face often enough to use my irons effectively. My handicap trend over this, and the previous season supports this fact.



HughJars said:



			Then post a pic where you have a ball pattern all over the face, some pretty outlying. It's evident you have a lot of mis-hits.
		
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As I said in a previous post, that picture you reference was taken after hitting 100 balls with that 6 iron, after a lesson. Of that 100 balls, of course there were mis-hits.

How many time have you come away from a lesson, trying to ingrain changes and flushed every shot? Show me a pro on tour that never misses the sweet spot, ever!?!

My point. There is enough of a concentration of good strikes, in the sweet spot area and around the centre of the face, as compared to the mis-hits to justify having the irons I do. If after 100 strikes there was absolutely no distinct pattern to the impact marks, I would agree with you 100%. 

However, there is a noticable concentration, in the centre of the face to evidence that I find that area, more than I miss it.

Pictures don't lie Hugh. How you choose to interprit the image is down to you. 



HughJars said:



			Still you carry on in dreamland.
		
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Dreamland? 

Since I've moved *from*game Improvement irons *to* 'players' irons, my handicap has dropped over 4 shots! What exactly am I dreaming about? I'm shooting low 80's pretty much most rounds now, with the od high 70 score thrown in for good measure. Could I do this if my irons were unsuitable for my swing/ability?

Taking your stand point, surely, my handicap would have remained stagnant, if not increased as I couldn't  hit these irons correctly with all the mis-hits that I must be hitting?

I respect the point you make Hugh, and respect you for debating and standing by your point. 

For you to say the irons I was custom fitted for, by a qualified club fitter and teaching pro, coupled with my handicap dropping 2 shots over this season, are not right for me, with never having seen me play, or even swing a club, is, frankly, a wild guess.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 4, 2013)

Dude, he is the reason young people do not take the game up, he is the reason golf is not cool... don't fight him on it. As time goes by one hopes that the old guard and old attitudes die off and golf becomes for everyone not just the snobs. OMG thank you that I do not come in contact with people like this in the real world of golf!!!!


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## kid2 (Oct 4, 2013)

HughJars said:



			maybe if you played more forgiving clubs that are designed to help you, you may lose the high handicap? 

Click to expand...




Alex1975 said:



			Dude, he is the reason young people do not take the game up, he is the reason golf is not cool... don't fight him on it. As time goes by one hopes that the old guard and old attitudes die off and golf becomes for everyone not just the snobs. OMG thank you that I do not come in contact with people like this in the real world of golf!!!!
		
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Thought you weren't posting any more....


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			Dude, he is the reason young people do not take the game up, he is the reason golf is not cool... don't fight him on it. As time goes by one hopes that the old guard and old attitudes die off and golf becomes for everyone not just the snobs. OMG thank you that I do not come in contact with people like this in the real world of golf!!!!
		
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Personally Al' I think he makes some very good points. He has, and is rightly entitled to, his opinion. In the same way that I am and have mine. 

'Some' people *will* buy a club, or set of clubs, simply because they look good/shiney/cool/desirable. Of this I have no doubt and agree 100%










....... I'm not one of them however


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## Alex1975 (Oct 4, 2013)

For me though the points are totally overshadowed by the fact that he is trying to make a fool of you.... You little high handicapper you...


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



*For me though the points are totally overshadowed by the fact that he is trying to make a fool of you*.... You little high handicapper you...
		
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I don't need Hugh's help for that. I can do that all by myself


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## HughJars (Oct 4, 2013)

Alex1975 said:



			For me though the points are totally overshadowed by the fact that he is trying to make a fool of you.... You little high handicapper you...
		
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I'm not trying to make a fool of anyone, I've pointed out the ridiculousness of claiming there's little room for improvement in a player playing off 14.

As for snobbery? LMAO, I'm not the one advocating playing blades. Perhaps you should stop trolling if you have nothing positive to add, which it seems you don't. Advocating playing GI clubs is old school is it? You'll have to explain that one. Advocating making the game easier is uncool is it?

I'm not in the least bit worried about being cool, I'm on the committee of a club that does everything it can to encourage youngsters. The last thing in the world I'd be advocating to these youngsters is playing clubs that massage your ego, but murder your game.

Perhaps instead of being a [Mod Edit] you might try the same?


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## USER1999 (Oct 4, 2013)

You might want to edit that, there's still time, before the infraction hits.


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## Stuey01 (Oct 4, 2013)

Wow, that escalated quickly.
Alex1975 is showing as a guest, has he been banned or cancelled his membership? Shame, I liked that guy.

I started lessons with a new pro last week. I was looking at some G25 irons in the shop after and mentioned to him that I was thinking of something more forgiving. He said no way, the way you strike your irons stick with what you have. 
I'm off 17.
There, that should keep things going...


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## One Planer (Oct 4, 2013)

Stuey01 said:



			I started lessons with a new pro last week. I was looking at some G25 irons in the shop after and mentioned to him that I was thinking of something more forgiving. He said no way, the way you strike your irons stick with what you have.
		
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Can I ask what made you think you needed more forgiveness?


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## adam6177 (Oct 4, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Can I ask what made you think you needed more forgiveness?
		
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Because I have sinned, oh praise the lord!

On a serious note....I've had Nike VR Pro Combo CBs for a few months now.  The CB on the Mid > low irons definitely gives me more leeway to be a numpty, but the more blade like short irons go really nicely.  I guess we're more likely to strike a short iron better as there is less room for it to go wrong.


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## Stuey01 (Oct 4, 2013)

Bleating on here mainly, making me wonder if I'm missing something.


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## JustOne (Oct 4, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You've got a lot of sweetspot hits there..... surrounded with a lot of miss-hits 

Have you thought about a set of Dunlops? :whoo:
		
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Can I just clarify that the above post was pure sarcasm (hence the smileys) I think that clubface dispersion is pretty darn good in Gareth's pics (probably better than my own) I like to see worn sweetspots on clubs, up to a point of course (don't want the grooves to be too worn out!).


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## NWJocko (Oct 4, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I like to see worn sweetspots on clubs,
		
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You'd like the hosels on my clubs then!! :whoo:

Obviously missed all of the abusive stuff that seems to have gone on


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## bluewolf (Oct 4, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			You'd like the hosels on my clubs then!! :whoo:

Obviously missed all of the abusive stuff that seems to have gone on
		
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Nothing too abusive mate. Just good debate regarding the need for Mid/High handicappers to use GI clubs. Fairly resonates with me at the moment as my lay off has negatively affected my ability to consistantly hit the sweetspot on my blade type clubs. Which is why I'm currently on the lookout for some Ping G15/G20's to use next year...


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## HughJars (Oct 6, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Can I just clarify that the above post was pure sarcasm (hence the smileys) I think that clubface dispersion is pretty darn good in Gareth's pics (probably better than my own) I like to see worn sweetspots on clubs, up to a point of course (don't want the grooves to be too worn out!).
		
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Agreed. Worn sweetspots are what we should all be aiming for, not that that is what we are seeing there. A pro's worn sweetspot will be the size of a 10p piece. Now I'm not saying you need to be that concentrated to hit blades, but I am saying the pics on show were a long way from it.


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## HughJars (Oct 6, 2013)

Junior said:



			Interesting post and I agree.   Golf can be more about how good your bad shots are.  Clubs dont need t be fogiving if you it them out of the screws all the time.
		
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Here's a great post. It's as much about your bad shots as your good. And what helps the bad shots? Well FORGIVING clubs would be a start.


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## Mungoscorner (Oct 7, 2013)

Coming from somebody that has crossed swords with Mr Jars on more than one occasion concerning CF, i'd like to to eat some crow and congratulate him for his input on this thread.
There really are some deluded golfers on this forum, and the phrase "all the gear no idea" really does typify this place at times.
Bad advice from somebody who isn't qualified to offer advice, is exactly that, no matter how well intended.


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Here's a great post. It's as much about your bad shots as your good. And what helps the bad shots? Well FORGIVING clubs would be a start.
		
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As I said previous, it depends on what your bad shot is. 

If your bad shot is hitting the ball fat, how is more forgiveness going to help?

If your bad shot is hitting the ball thin, how is more forgiveness going to help?

If your bad shot is topping the ball, how is more forgiveness going to help?

Now, If your bad shot is, non of the above but you have an inconsistent strike pattern, I.E If you hit 100+ balls with a club, and there are marks all over the face *with no clear concentration in a specific area*, then, yes more forgiveness can help, but how much?

I know from previous experience between my Taylormade R7 irons and MP63/32, the distance between two similar mis-hits is less than 10 yards, with the GI clubs being the further of the two.

As I said before, *if you're hitting the ball all over the club face, with no decernable pattern, then GI clubs will help.* However, if your strike dispersion isn't _terrible_, you can play a 'better players' iron.

Just my opinion.


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			As I said previous, it depends on what your bad shot is. 

If your bad shot is hitting the ball fat, how is more forgiveness going to help?

If your bad shot is hitting the ball thin, how is more forgiveness going to help?

If your bad shot is topping the ball, how is more forgiveness going to help?

Now, If your bad shot is, non of the above but you have an inconsistent strike pattern, I.E If you hit 100+ balls with a club, and there are marks all over the face *with no clear concentration in a specific area*, then, yes more forgiveness can help, but how much?

I know from previous experience between my Taylormade R7 irons and MP63/32, the distance between two similar mis-hits is less than 10 yards, with the GI clubs being the further of the two.

As I said before, *if you're hitting the ball all over the club face, with no decernable pattern, then GI clubs will help.* However, if your strike dispersion isn't _terrible_, you can play a 'better players' iron.

Just my opinion.
		
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Gareth, i'm interested whats your bad shots?

 I'm sure you hit the ball fine, but i have  come to the concusion that we all needs a bit of help.

I played MP62 for the last 3 years and i hit them well most of the time, but bad shots went nowhere, so i switched to GI irons, sure they are fugly looking things imo, but they are far easier to hit and go 10 yards further, shure the lofts are i bit dodgy, but who cares.

I'm playing crap at the moment but still managed 4 birdies on Sat in a team comp, i doubt i would have got 1 with the MP's


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Gareth, i'm interested whats your bad shots?

 I'm sure you hit the ball fine, but i have  come to the concusion that we all needs a bit of help.

I played MP62 for the last 3 years and i hit them well most of the time, but bad shots went nowhere, so i switched to GI irons, sure they are fugly looking things imo, but they are far easier to hit and go 10 yards further, shure the lofts are i bit dodgy, but who cares.

I'm playing crap at the moment but still managed 4 birdies on Sat in a team comp, i doubt i would have got 1 with the MP's
		
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My bad shot is, and has always been, a pull. No amount of high C.O.R numbers will help that

I take the ball cleanly, with a divot after the ball. When it all goes well, I get the ball starting straight with a gentle fade as it begins to fall. When I get it wrong, I get the pull.

I still take the ball as previous when I hit the pull, but with the clubface mirroring the path (left) I get a straight pull, 10-15 yards left of my target. Purely a swing path/club face issue. 

As I say, would moving to a set of G25, JPX825, Slingshots or A.N other GI club slove that issue for me? No, as the fault is purely down to swing path/club face. *Not* how the ball is struck.

Of course I don't find the middle of the face all the time, but I find it often enough, as evidenced by the pictures on this and previous threads, to make the irons useable. 

When I was fitted earlier in the year, the club fitter had me hit an amount of balls ith some impact tape on the face. The results were similar to the picture above. The main concentration being in and around the middle, with a smattering of slightly off-centre strikes thrown in for good measure. He was confident I could use the irons effectively an the numbers on the monitor suggested so too.

I suppose it comes down to confidnce.

I'm confident using the irons I have. They go  in the direction where I want them to go most of the time, and, the required distance, again most of the time.

I have no issue with people using GI clubs. You're clearly a much better player than me Patrick, and, if you feel that the GI rons give you a little more confidence to shoot better scores when you're not swinging well, great. No doubt the more I progress, my mind set may change, but for now I'm confident in my current set.


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 7, 2013)

For what it's worth, I agree with Gareth....and HJ 

I agree with HJ that more forgiving irons could benefit everyone. But there is no way on earth I am using an ugly golf club. Maybe that attitude is at the detriment of my game but I am happy to forgo a bit of forgiveness to use a club I like the look of. I think I have proved that I am good enough to use the clubs I do and am prepared to accept that when I'm not on my game, I may not get as much forgiveness as I would with an ugly (I mean GI) club. On the flip side, I know that when I've played well it's because I played well and not because the clubs masked some of my issues.


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			For what it's worth, I agree with Gareth....and HJ 

Click to expand...

Firmly on the fence there Hawkeye


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Firmly on the fence there Hawkeye 

Click to expand...

And no chance of losing my balance anytime soon


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			And no chance of losing my balance anytime soon 

Click to expand...

You'll get splinters :smirk:


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			My bad shot is, and has always been, a pull. No amount of high C.O.R numbers will help that

I take the ball cleanly, with a divot after the ball. When it all goes well, I get the ball starting straight with a gentle fade as it begins to fall. When I get it wrong, I get the pull.



I have no issue with people using GI clubs. You're clearly a much better player than me Patrick, and, if you feel that the GI rons give you a little more confidence to shoot better scores when you're not swinging well, great. No doubt the more I progress, my mind set may change, but for now I'm confident in my current set.
		
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There must be more than a pull, thats my bad shot and i hit a few of them in every round, usually with the driver, so if we are both hitting the same poor shot how come i'm half your handicap... is it jus i've played a couple more years than you?

In saying that i was down to your handicap in the first year i started using a set of Mizuno MX17 shovels


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			There must be more than a pull, thats my bad shot and i hit a few of them in every round, usually with the driver, so if we are both hitting the same poor shot how come i'm half your handicap... is it jus i've played a couple more years than you?
		
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I've only really played since September 2010, but I have zero natural talent for this game 

The reason my handicap has remined higher than I would like is down to my driving. Generally put myself in place(s) that doesn't offer a chance to score well. That said, over this season my driving has been much improved, mainly to changes my pro has made to my posture an swing.

My game and handicap are moving in the right direction, that's the main thing I look at. I've dropped 2 shots this season and, with a bit of luck, will be looked at during the annual review. 

If my handicap was stagnant, or worse, going backwards, then I 'may' have considered changes, but not to the clubs 



patricks148 said:



			In saying that i was down to your handicap in the first year i started using a set of Mizuno MX17 shovels

Click to expand...

A question on this Patrick. 

Your MX17's got you down, what I would deem as, very quickly to a good handicap. Why did you change?


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## guest100718 (Oct 7, 2013)

So as a hacker off 15, should I stick with my MP53s that I love or use my AP1s that I have kicking about.?


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			A question on this Patrick. 

Your MX17's got you down, what I would deem as, very quickly to a good handicap. Why did you change?
		
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at the time i had started to play a lot of Links golf at Tain and used to find the wide sole of the MX17, didnt help of the bare lies i kept getting.  i also wanted to take my ball flight down as like the JPX the MX17 just wanted to go high and straight. plus Mizuno had just brought out the MP57 and i prom myself as soon as i got to 10 i would treat myself to a set.


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			at the time i had started to play a lot of Links golf at Tain and used to find the wide sole of the MX17, didnt help of the bare lies i kept getting.  i also wanted to take my ball flight down as like the JPX the MX17 just wanted to go high and straight. plus Mizuno had just brought out the MP57 and i prom myself as soon as i got to 10 i would treat myself to a set.
		
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Did forgiveness play a factor in your decision to change?


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## garyinderry (Oct 7, 2013)

using players clubs would no doubt force people to improve their ball striking.   it would not be a bad idea for someone to buy a cheap set of old mizuno mp irons to practice with then use their more forgiving clubs in comps.  


just an idea.   


when I changed to nike pro combos from shovels I didn't even really know about the differences. I didn't even  worry about the size difference. I just got on with it and loved the look of my new bats!


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Did forgiveness play a factor in your decision to change?
		
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Not really as at the time a knew nothing about golf, other than; hit it find it and hit it again. i few guys i played with all had blade type clubs and i tried a few of theirs and hit them well... ish for my handicap that was.

when i tried the MP57 they felt just as easy to hit as the Mx17 but i got a lower flight could hit low punches and bump and runs etc. 
I still think the Mp57 were the best clubs that offered everything Mizuno have made, that i have tried anyway. 

I wanted to try blades so got a 2nd hand set of mp32 and hit them well also, them when i saw my MP62 in a local pro shop almost brand new, i had to have them. I hit them well on occ, i shot a level par gross with the off the back tee's at Western Gails and a level at Castle Stuart off the black tee's one day, the same tee as the pro's had used for the Scottish open a few weeks before. not to mention 47 points in the club spring meeting.

But..

There were also times when i shot high 80 and even the odd 90 with them as when you are off they went no where.

I wasn't hitting the ball well at the start of the year and tried the JPX that belonged to the pro at the Mizuno dealer in Inversneck..

again i didn't hit the ball very well but they masked the poor strikes and i gained 10 yards with each club comp with the mp62.

it was a no brainer to change.


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Not really as at the time a knew nothing about golf, other than; hit it find it and hit it again. i few guys i played with all had blade type clubs and i tried a few of theirs and hit them well... ish for my handicap that was.

when i tried the MP57 they felt just as easy to hit as the Mx17 but i got a lower flight could hit low punches and bump and runs etc. 
I still think the Mp57 were the best clubs that offered everything Mizuno have made, that i have tried anyway. 

I wanted to try blades so got a 2nd hand set of mp32 and hit them well also, them when i saw my MP62 in a local pro shop almost brand new, i had to have them. I hit them well on occ, i shot a level par gross with the off the back tee's at Western Gails and a level at Castle Stuart off the black tee's one day, the same tee as the pro's had used for the Scottish open a few weeks before. not to mention 47 points in the club spring meeting.

But..

There were also times when i shot high 80 and even the odd 90 with them as when you are off they went no where.

I wasn't hitting the ball well at the start of the year and tried the JPX that belonged to the pro at the Mizuno dealer in Inversneck..

again i didn't hit the ball very well but they masked the poor strikes and i gained 10 yards with each club comp with the mp62.

it was a no brainer to change.
		
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Nice answer there Patrick :thup:

For me, what you have summed up there is a very accurate story of a handicap golfer, albeit in your case a good one.

One week you shoot level par, the next your back into the 80's.

It's the same in the professional game. One day they can shoot mid to low 60's, the next mid 70's  ..... That's golf.

On the back of this thread, I asked myself the question over the weekend "Would a set of GI clubs help me get lower?"

My honest answer, No.

Would they make my mis-hits fly straighter? Yep, they would.

Would they make my mis-hits fly further? Yep, no doubt

Would I still have the same swing flawes, albeit masked by the tech of the club....... Yep.

Or, to paraphrase Hawkeye



HawkeyeMS said:



			I know that when I've played well it's because I played well and not because the clubs masked some of my issues.
		
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I know golf is a game of how many, not how. I guess I just enjoy a challange


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## garyinderry (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Would they make my mis-hits fly straighter? Yep, they would.
		
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do they cheat the ball flight laws?


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## Qwerty (Oct 7, 2013)

Fwiw, I persevered with a set of MP32 for a year. It was purely an ego thing at the time, I wasn't sure if playing off 9 I was good enough for them but if it meant having a set of handsome Blades in the bag it was worth a try.

Theres no doubt about it, when my game was "on" they were a pleasure to use but the other 75% of the time I knew they were too much club for me,anything more than 8 iron was hard work. The novelty wore off and they had to go.

The Mp 53s I have now are for me the perfect balance of control in the shorter irons and forgiveness in the longer irons. I know if I'm having an "off" day I can still maybe chop it round in something respectable, where the 32s would just make me look a fool!!


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			do they cheat the ball flight laws?   

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It's all in the C.O.R and weighting ......... Apparently


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Nice answer there Patrick :thup:

For me, what you have summed up there is a very accurate story of a handicap golfer, albeit in your case a good one.

One week you shoot level par, the next your back into the 80's.

It's the same in the professional game. One day they can shoot mid to low 60's, the next mid 70's  ..... That's golf.

On the back of this thread, I asked myself the question over the weekend "Would a set of GI clubs help me get lower?"

My honest answer, No.

Would they make my mis-hits fly straighter? Yep, they would.

Would they make my mis-hits fly further? Yep, no doubt

Would I still have the same swing flawes, albeit masked by the tech of the club....... Yep.

Or, to paraphrase Hawkeye



I know golf is a game of how many, not how. I guess I just enjoy a challange 

Click to expand...

I think you prob would shoot lower scores with GI Irons and just cos you have GI irons doesnt mean you still don't hit the ball well. there's more to a good round that good iron play, though its important.

The last good round i played was a 77 gross. CSS 73, i played like a right monkey, but putter very well indeed


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			I think you prob would shoot lower scores with GI Irons and just cos you have GI irons doesnt mean you still don't hit the ball well. there's more to a good round that good iron play, though its important.

The last good round i played was a 77 gross. CSS 73, i played like a right monkey, but putter very well indeed

Click to expand...

Totally agree. Iron play is not the be-all and end-all of the game, but it's a contributing factor. The 5 iron I hit into the 9th that plugged in the fringe from 171 emphasized that  

If you get custom fit for irons (... As I did) you know on the day whether you can hit them or not. The proof of the pudding sits in the launch monitor data and impact tape. Iif the ball was all over the face and the numbers were cack, should I still buy the irons? Of course not, nor would/should the fitter expect you to. 

If me playing a 'better players' club is pampering my ego, then so be it. 

My handicap is moving in the right direction and, to me, that's all the proof I need to know the equipment I'm using is suitable.


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## patricks148 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Totally agree. Iron play is not the be-all and end-all of the game, but it's a contributing factor. The 5 iron I hit into the 9th that plugged in the fringe from 171 emphasized that  

If you get custom fit for irons (... As I did) you know on the day whether you can hit them or not. The proof of the pudding sits in the launch monitor data and impact tape. Iif the ball was all over the face and the numbers were cack, should I still buy the irons? Of course not, nor would/should the fitter expect you to. 

If me playing a 'better players' club is pampering my ego, then so be it. 

My handicap is moving in the right direction and, to me, that's all the proof I need to know the equipment I'm using is suitable.
		
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I took the 62 out for a couple of bounce games recently and yes, i still hit them fine in fact i hit a couple of crackers with the 3 iron, but that just confirmed how much easier the game is with some help.

Of course its nice to have a great looking set blade type irons in the bag, but at the end of the day its scores that count. The young 14 year old lad a mentioned in another post that shot 66 gross in the medal last week, has a right load of old crap in his bag.. all hand me downs and none of it less than 10 years old... guess what he shot on sunday in  a comp.... 69 gross with the css74 with it being windy.

Indians and arrows springs to mind


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## One Planer (Oct 7, 2013)

patricks148 said:



			Indians and arrows springs to mind
		
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:thup:


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## kid2 (Oct 7, 2013)

Seeig as i started all this Malarky i might as well keep going....
I still stand by what i said and Gareth on this...... I can also relate to what HJ is saying and i mean no disrespect to his trade either......

So if i take yesterday as an example.....
My Irons in HJ's words are "Hardly Game Improvement"...... Yesterday i shot 79 gross....... The only bad shot i hit with my irons over the 18 holes came on the first with my 4 iron...... I caught the ball off the toe..... It only went 140mtrs before the rough had slowed it down...... I dropped 8 shots to par broken down as follows.....

1.The 1st....Poor tee shot with my 4 iron.... Made bogie. *1*
2. 3 putted our par 3 2nd after hitting the middle of the green.....*2*
3. Dropped 1 on the 3rd to a pulled tee shot with a 3 wood.*3*
4. 3 putted the 4th par 3 after hitting a front bunker*5*
5. A pushed drive on the 7th put me under a tree where i had to chip out and had 190mtrs to the middle of the green.. Milled a hybrid and hit the back of the green pin high.... chip and 2 putts.... double bogie.*7*
6. A plugged ball at the side of the 11th green i had to chunk out.. 2 putts... bogie*8*
7. A hooked drive into cabbage, I had to reload and ended up with a double bogie.....*10*
8. A Birdie on 16 and 17 got me 2 back..*8*

Shots dropped by Irons that i shouldnt be using *1*.....

On no account yesterday did i think i need more forgiving clubs......

And my Irons.... Wilsonstaff FG Tours..... Standard length,loft and lie straight off the shelf with DG S300 shafts....


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## guest100718 (Oct 8, 2013)

My 21 hdcp friend shot his best round ever using a set of 1970s of wilson blades he borrowed from me. Hardy what you'd call SGI irons...


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

kid2 said:



			Seeig as i started all this Malarky i might as well keep going....
I still stand by what i said and Gareth on this...... I can also relate to what HJ is saying and i mean no disrespect to his trade either......

So if i take yesterday as an example.....
My Irons in HJ's words are "Hardly Game Improvement"...... Yesterday i shot 79 gross....... The only bad shot i hit with my irons over the 18 holes came on the first with my 4 iron...... I caught the ball off the toe..... It only went 140mtrs before the rough had slowed it down...... I dropped 8 shots to par broken down as follows.....

1.The 1st....Poor tee shot with my 4 iron.... Made bogie. *1*
2. 3 putted our par 3 2nd after hitting the middle of the green.....*2*
3. Dropped 1 on the 3rd to a pulled tee shot with a 3 wood.*3*
4. 3 putted the 4th par 3 after hitting a front bunker*5*
5. A pushed drive on the 7th put me under a tree where i had to chip out and had 190mtrs to the middle of the green.. Milled a hybrid and hit the back of the green pin high.... chip and 2 putts.... double bogie.*7*
6. A plugged ball at the side of the 11th green i had to chunk out.. 2 putts... bogie*8*
7. A hooked drive into cabbage, I had to reload and ended up with a double bogie.....*10*
8. A Birdie on 16 and 17 got me 2 back..*8*

Shots dropped by Irons that i shouldnt be using *1*.....

On no account yesterday did i think i need more forgiving clubs......

And my Irons.... Wilsonstaff FG Tours..... Standard length,loft and lie straight off the shelf with DG S300 shafts....
		
Click to expand...

I went for a quick 9 holes myself last night after work. I'd post a picture of the 4 iron I hit into a par 3, but modesty forbids 

In the clubhouse after I brought this very subject up with a few of the chaps in there. One of them, the club chairman, made a very interesting point.

He argued that people these days (... Yes, he grew up playing blades and persimmon woods) look too much into what they can't do rather than what they actually can.

Things like:

"I Can't hit a 4 iron" 

or 

"I can't hit a fairway wood off the deck".

"Back then", he says, "You didn't have a choice. You learned to play with the clubs you had. You didn't really have a choice. There were no hybrids, no uber forgiving woods, just butter knives and lumps of wood on the end of a stick."



I think he makes a fair point myself.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

To add to this thread. I started a similar post, in July last year  , asking if we (..... Manufacturers) were making this game "Too easy"

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?42586-Are-we-in-danger&highlight=gareth+danger

Some interesting thoughts, that are relivent to this thread :thup:


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## patricks148 (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			I went for a quick 9 holes myself last night after work. I'd post a picture of the 4 iron I hit into a par 3, but modesty forbids 

In the clubhouse after I brought this very subject up with a few of the chaps in there. One of them, the club chairman, made a very interesting point.

He argued that people these days (... Yes, he grew up playing blades and persimmon woods) look too much into what they can't do rather than what they actually can.

Things like:

"I Can't hit a 4 iron" 

or 

"I can't hit a fairway wood off the deck".

"Back then", he says, "You didn't have a choice. You learned to play with the clubs you had. You didn't really have a choice. There were no hybrids, no uber forgiving woods, just butter knives and lumps of wood on the end of a stick."



I think he makes a fair point myself.
		
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True, as we have all these things to make the game easier, why not use them????

I like the feel of  hitting a crisp bladed 3 iron as much as the next guy but... times change..

Bring on the easy to hit clubs

PS does you Chairman still have a black and white Valve tele?


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## bluewolf (Oct 8, 2013)

I think that there's some spectacular point missing here. Surely the help is not for when you're playing well, but for when your timing isn't quite right. I played some of my best golf with a set of MP32's. I also played some of my worst. GI irons just help to even out the peaks and troughs for me, with maybe a small improvement in the average. Detailing a great round is all good, but without the context of the bad rounds as well, then it's relatively meaningless. 

FWIW, people can and should use whatever the feel best using. My irons are without doubt, too good for my current swing. 2 injury prone years has caused that. So I'm buying a set of lighter GI irons to help me regain my swing and confidence. Then I'll go back to my Cobra's.


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## HughJars (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			On the back of this thread, I asked myself the question over the weekend "Would a set of GI clubs help me get lower?"

*My honest answer, No.*

Would they make my mis-hits fly straighter? *Yep, they would.*

Would they make my mis-hits fly further? *Yep, no doubt*

Would I still have the same swing flawes, albeit *masked by the tech of the club*....... Yep.


*I know golf is a game of how many, not how*. I guess I just enjoy a challange 

Click to expand...

So every question you asked yourself came back with a reply that GI clubs would better your game, so your conclusion was, they would not better your game?


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## HughJars (Oct 8, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			I think that there's some spectacular point missing here.
		
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Wilful point missing I think blue. It's been explained, even down to where I re-posted the pic of Gareth's wide dispersion on the club face, but that's ok apparently cos most are more or less out of the sweet spot


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Wilful point missing I think blue. It's been explained, even down to where I re-posted the pic of Gareth's wide dispersion on the club face, but that's ok apparently cos most are more or less out of the sweet spot 

Click to expand...

Are you *seriously* telling me, that in the picture you reference I *miss* the middle more than I *hit* it?

Are you sure you're looking at the right picture?


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

HughJars said:



			So every question you asked yourself came back with a reply that GI clubs would better your game, so your conclusion was, they would not better your game?
		
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GI clubs have a place in golf, I'm not disagreeing with that. I have no issue with GI clubs, nor players who use them.

If anything, in reference to the origin OP, GI clubs massage your ego *more* than playing a 'better players' club.

And here's why. 

You can hit the ball *anywhere*, pretty much, on the face and the ball will fly straight. You can strike a GI iron poorly and still get a good result, not too shabby. It will still go roughly where aimed and, chances are not lose a great deal of distance. Great!

So the guy who strikes it high or low on the face. Out of the heel or toe gets it round in a reasonable number.

Did they? Or was it the technology? Would they have shot the same score with 'harder to hit' clubs?

Here's the counter argument.

Is this, the above, not massaging a players ego *more* with regards to ability than someone hitting 'players' irons who can't find the middle?

I know that golf is not a game of how, but how many. Fine I accept that. If they gets you around the course in a number you find acceptable great. 

What happens when they don't? Do you buy more forgiving irons? Do you move from G15 irons to K15 (Other brands are available)?

Has the average handicap dropped since Ping launched the cavity back? Has all the modern technology from TM, Ping, Callaway, Mizuno, Cleveland help to lower the handicap of the average golfer? *No*. 

The average handicap has stayed, pretty much, the same as it was when clubs were a lot harder to hit. Surely this can't be right can it?

Here's a typical example.

I have a friend who plays off 28. He's been playing 5 years and has never played to 28. He plays SGI irons and Ping G series woods. Surely,by your logic, they should be helping him to reach his goal?

Of course they won't. 

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows you can't buy a 'golf swing' from the American Golf (Other stores are available). You have to work at it, play a lot, practice often, have lessons if you feel the need. That's how you learn to hit the ball effectively.

If you want to advocate massaging an ego by shooting a number by hitting the ball anywhere but out of the middle, you go right ahead :thup:


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 8, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			I think that there's some spectacular point missing here. Surely the help is not for when you're playing well, but for when your timing isn't quite right. I played some of my best golf with a set of MP32's. I also played some of my worst. GI irons just help to even out the peaks and troughs for me, with maybe a small improvement in the average. Detailing a great round is all good, but without the context of the bad rounds as well, then it's relatively meaningless. 

FWIW, people can and should use whatever the feel best using. My irons are without doubt, too good for my current swing. 2 injury prone years has caused that. So I'm buying a set of lighter GI irons to help me regain my swing and confidence. Then I'll go back to my Cobra's.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is doubting the benefit of GI irons. Some of us are just happy to accept the lack of forgiveness in favour of something more pleasing on the eye. It's not an ego thing, it's just a personal preference, which I believe we are allowed.


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			GI clubs have a place in golf, I'm not disagreeing with that. I have no issue with GI clubs, nor players who use them.

If anything, in reference to the origin OP, GI clubs massage your ego *more* than playing a 'better players' club.

And here's why. 

You can hit the ball *anywhere*, pretty much, on the face and the ball will fly straight. You can strike a GI iron poorly and still get a good result, not too shabby. It will still go roughly where aimed and, chances are not lose a great deal of distance. Great!

So the guy who strikes it high or low on the face. Out of the heel or toe gets it round in a reasonable number.

Did they? Or was it the technology? Would they have shot the same score with 'harder to hit' clubs?

Here's the counter argument.

Is this, the above, not massaging a players ego *more* with regards to ability than someone hitting 'players' irons who can't find the middle?

I know that golf is not a game of how, but how many. Fine I accept that. If they gets you around the course in a number you find acceptable great. 

What happens when they don't? Do you buy more forgiving irons? Do you move from G15 irons to K15 (Other brands are available)?

Has the average handicap dropped since Ping launched the cavity back? Has all the modern technology from TM, Ping, Callaway, Mizuno, Cleveland help to lower the handicap of the average golfer? *No*. 

The average handicap has stayed, pretty much, the same as it was when clubs were a lot harder to hit. Surely this can't be right can it?

Here's a typical example.

I have a friend who plays off 28. He's been playing 5 years and has never played to 28. He plays SGI irons and Ping G series woods. Surely,by your logic, they should be helping him to reach his goal?

Of course they won't. 

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows you can't buy a 'golf swing' from the American Golf (Other stores are available). You have to work at it, play a lot, practice often, have lessons if you feel the need. That's how you learn to hit the ball effectively.

If you want to advocate massaging an ego by shooting a number by hitting the ball anywhere but out of the middle, you go right ahead :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I'm starting to fall of the fence on your side Gareth :thup:


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## bluewolf (Oct 8, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I don't think anyone is doubting the benefit of GI irons. Some of us are just happy to accept the lack of forgiveness in favour of something more pleasing on the eye. It's not an ego thing, it's just a personal preference, which I believe we are allowed.
		
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Did you mean to quote my post? Not really sure how your reply has anything to do with my post. As I stated, people are free to use whatever they like the look of. I do.


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## chellie (Oct 8, 2013)

Ok, so how do I know if my irons are GI's or not.


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## Qwerty (Oct 8, 2013)

As I said earlier in the thread, I tried Mp32s for a year and they are without doubt a great iron,but for me I get the most enjoyment and sense of achievement out of posting a low score. After using both I know I've a much better chance of doing this with my current Mp53s over the 32s. 

I play a moorland course, sometimes windy and with lots of awkward lies, It's not always easy to find the middle of the club.

Of course we're all entitled to have whatever clubs we like in the bag, but if Theres a driver or set of irons out there that will help me score lower then I'll use them. I'll happily let a bit of forgiveness mask my imperfections if the outcome is a lower score.

I think practice time is also an issue here...  I'm off 9, a reasonable ball striker.... If I was on the range 4 nights a week I could maybe handle the 32s.  Pulling them straight out of the bag on a weekend... I've got no chance.


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

One point on GI irons - if you hit a GI iron out of the toe or the heel the ball does NOT go straight.

The sweet spot is larger and therefore easier to hit but it does NOT make every ball fly straight no matter where on the face you strike the ball.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			As I said earlier in the thread, I tried Mp32s for a year and they are without doubt a great iron,but for me I get the most enjoyment and sense of achievement out of posting a low score. After using both I know I've a much better chance of doing this with my current Mp53s over the 32s.

Of course we're all entitled to have whatever clubs we like in the bag, but if Theres a driver or set of irons out there that will help me score lower I'll use them.

I think practice time is also an issue here...  I'm off 9, a reasonable ball striker.... If I was on the range 4 nights a week I could maybe handle the 32s.  Pulling them straight out of the bag on a weekend... I've got no chance.
		
Click to expand...

Some good points here.

Things is though, while the 53's are no doubt more forgiving than the 32's, they're not exactly the most forgiving cavity back out there. 

I can't remember who it was (on here) who moved from a set of MP53's to a set of JPX irons. 

What I take from this is forgiveness is an entirely personal thing. You 'feel' you need more or less on a personal level. You know how often you miss the middle, only you know how well you strike a ball.


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## kid2 (Oct 8, 2013)

There is no such thing as a club that will help you lower your scores.... The only way that will happen boils down to ability.... Would a game improvement club have made my score better last weekend.... I seriously doubt it.... It may have given me an extra 10 mtrs on my opening tee shot with my 4 iron had it been a Ping G20 or Callaway or TM..... What would that have given me... A 6 iron instead of a 5 for my approach shot...

I'm with Gareth in that the average handicap has not changed since the introduction of the first Ping cavity back.... Despite all the technology that's about... 

If you use a club for long enough you'll eventually learn how to hit it properly....


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## Qwerty (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			What I take from this is forgiveness is an entirely personal thing. You 'feel' you need more or less on a personal level. You know how often you miss the middle, only you know how well you strike a ball.
		
Click to expand...


I find a that a good score is all about momentum Gareth, If my ball striking/timing wasn't quite there early in the round with some 32s in the bag I'd probably never get going it would also knock the confidence a little.

If I turn up on a bad day with that bit of forgiveness the 53s offer I feel I've got a better chance of getting things going, gaining momentum and maybe scraping buffer or posting something half decent.

like you say, on a personal level I do feel I need the forgiveness the 53s offer, there's a lot of awkward lies on my course and its not always easy finding the middle of the club.

With bunkers left and right at the front of every green sometimes that bit of forgiveness from 160 yards is the difference between birdie and bogey.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 8, 2013)

Now using GI clubs but hit my irons like an idiot at West Hill. No amount of forgiveness can help if you don't put a good swing on it. Kept slicing which is unusual for me. I did get some forgiveness and arguably more than I would have done with my old TM tour preferred's but it still comes down to putting a good strike on every shot.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

ger147 said:



			One point on GI irons - if you hit a GI iron out of the toe or the heel the ball does NOT go straight.

The sweet spot is larger and therefore easier to hit but it does NOT make every ball fly straight no matter where on the face you strike the ball.
		
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I accept straight every time may be exaggerated, agreed, but look at the COR numbers outside the sweet spot. As near as makes no difference to the actual sweet spot!!


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:









I accept straight every time may be exaggerated, agreed, but look at the COR numbers outside the sweet spot. As near as makes no difference to the actual sweet spot!!
		
Click to expand...

That is about distance, NOT direction.


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## garyinderry (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:









I accept straight every time may be exaggerated, agreed, but look at the COR numbers outside the sweet spot. As near as makes no difference to the actual sweet spot!!
		
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I find that photo very hard to believe!


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			I find that photo very hard to believe!
		
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Well it is from TM Gary 

Having said that. Can they make such statements without the numbers to back it up. Surely if the club conforms to the R&A requirements it has to be a stated amount?



ger147 said:



			That is about distance, NOT direction.
		
Click to expand...

Agree to a point.  

That picture stated the COR numbers for that clubs face. That is to do with forgiveness and how the ball reacts off the face. 

I'm not sure here, but if the sweet spot is bigger does that affect the gear effect of the club influencing direction of the ball?


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

It doesn't make it go straight from anywhere on the face, or anywhere near straight if your launch conditions are crap.  More margin for error yes, automatic straights shots, absolutely NOT no matter what the COR of your club face is.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

ger147 said:



			It doesn't make it go straight from anywhere on the face, or anywhere near straight if your launch conditions are crap.  More margin for error yes, automatic straights shots, absolutely NOT no matter what the COR of your club face is.
		
Click to expand...

Like I said a few posts back, straight every time is a bit of an exaggeration on my part. Of cause swing plane and the angle of the face at impact will play the major roll in dictating the flight and direction of the ball. 

But we're taking, in the general context of the thread, about forgiveness. Which, as I understand it, the higher the COR numbers are, the more forgiving the club is on off centre strikes.


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Like I said a few posts back, straight every time is a bit of an exaggeration on my part. Of cause swing plane and the angle of the face at impact will play the major roll in dictating the flight and direction of the ball. 

But we're taking, in the general context of the thread, about forgiveness. Which, as I understand it, the higher the COR numbers are, the more forgiving the club is on off centre strikes.
		
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It was a very big exaggeration, not just a bit.

If GI clubs are not for you that's fine. I have no issue whatsoever with what clubs you want to play but leave the exaggerations out of any debate.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

ger147 said:



			It was a very big exaggeration, not just a bit.

If GI clubs are not for you that's fine. I have no issue whatsoever with what clubs you want to play but leave the exaggerations out of any debate.
		
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Perhaps you should point the same out to Taylormade




			Weâ€™ve poured every bit of distance-enhancing know-how weâ€™ve got into RocketBladez Max irons to create a club thatâ€™s *effortless* to launch high, *long and straight*. The 4- through 7-iron feature hollow-head, metalwood construction, and sophisticated new ultra-thin clubface design to promote faster ball speed, more forgiveness, higher launch, longer carry and a steeper approach angle.
		
Click to expand...

To me, effortless, means pretty much every time and is a pretty big exaggeration considering we all have different swings and Taylormade have no idea who will buy their clubs or what level they play at.

I could quite easily flick through some more of the OEM's sites and find a similar tag line, but frankly, I can't be bothered as this evidences my point nicely. 

As for leaving exaggerations out of a debate, I put it to you that quite a but of what's been written on this thread has been exaggerated in some way to make a point.


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## kid2 (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Perhaps you should point the same out to Taylormade


Weâ€™ve poured every bit of distance-enhancing know-how weâ€™ve got into RocketBladez Max irons to create a club thatâ€™s *effortless to launch high, long and straight. *The 4- through 7-iron feature hollow-head, metalwood construction, and sophisticated new ultra-thin clubface design to promote faster ball speed, more forgiveness, higher launch, longer carry and a steeper approach angle.
		
Click to expand...


Man i could have dont with those Sunday...


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

Even TM don't claim straight every time from anywhere on the face, that was one of yours.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

Perhaps so, and I accept that. 

But an OEM's marketing machine using words like "effortless" when it comes to hitting clubs "High, long and straight" is no different IMO :thup:


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## ger147 (Oct 8, 2013)

I'll pop a dictionary in the post for you.


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## One Planer (Oct 8, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I'll pop a dictionary in the post for you.
		
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:thup:


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## NWJocko (Oct 8, 2013)

Just to turn this on its head a little.....

Is anything gained from a blade/players iron on a good, solid hit from the centre of a clubface over a more forgiving iron?

Just curious as I'm considering more forgiving irons........


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2013)

I would say that Blade type cubs do not create as much distance as good GI clubs but are very predictable with ball flight when struck well.

I have a set of Ping i20's which are a progressive set of clubs, shorter irons are very blady and the longer irons have a little more offset with slightly longer club faces.


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## Region3 (Oct 8, 2013)

Gareth said:



			I'm not sure here, but if the sweet spot is bigger does that affect the gear effect of the club influencing direction of the ball?
		
Click to expand...

Gear effect has almost no effect on irons.
It is about the club rotating around it's COG. In a driver the COG is quite a way behind the face but in an iron it isn't.


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## Region3 (Oct 8, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Is anything gained from a blade/players iron on a good, solid hit from the centre of a clubface over a more forgiving iron?
		
Click to expand...

Joy!


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## NWJocko (Oct 9, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Joy! 

Click to expand...

The way you hit the ball with your very nice blades you must be a happy man mate!!


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## One Planer (Oct 9, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Gear effect has almost no effect on irons.
It is about the club rotating around it's COG. In a driver the COG is quite a way behind the face but in an iron it isn't.
		
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Thanks for that Gary :thup:

As I said, I wasn't sure,  but it's nice to have that clear in my mind now.


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## patricks148 (Oct 9, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Just to turn this on its head a little.....

Is anything gained from a blade/players iron on a good, solid hit from the centre of a clubface over a more forgiving iron?

Just curious as I'm considering more forgiving irons........
		
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For shaping shots you can't beat blade/player type irons.

Still my best round to date was level gross around Western Gailes in a club match, its a course where
shaping the ball really helped and i was able .. on that day to do that. Also playing in a comp a couple of months ago when the course was still hard and burnt with an old guy who was 70 and still using his MP32's. It  was a very windy day gusting at over 35 mph... on that day he gave a lesson on how to play in the wind and that brought back to me that day what blade type clubs can do.

I'll stick with my GM clubs though as i still made buffer


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## Snelly (Oct 9, 2013)

Quite a long thread.  Some interesting views.  

My thoughts are that if you want players clubs / blades / etc. then fine.  Buy them and enjoy them.   As I have said before, blades are for people that like blades and clubs that give you a bit more help are for the rest. 

My own view is that you're a bit daft if you have bladed irons and a handicap of more than about 3.  There are no pictures on scorecards and a well struck forged iron is neither here nor there when you post your score.   Still, each to their own and if a crunching shot from a forged club gets you excited then good for you.   But it would be more sensible to just say that you play with them because you like them rather than justifying it with reasons that don't stack up.  Golf is easier with Ping Zings than it is with a set of Maxfli Australian Blades.  Anyone saying otherwise is frankly clueless.   And the same argument applies to a lesser extent if you take less extreme examples. It is just common sense. 

Secondly, all this about shaping shots being easier with forged irons needs a bit of plain speaking.  First things first, most of the golfers on this forum (me included) are not good enough to hit draws, fades, high or low shots on command, despite what you might say. It doesn't matter what club is in your hand really.  An exceptional player can hit these shots when required, irrespective of whether he has a Ping or Mizuno iron to hit the ball with. Average players can't. The level of workability between the two clubs is negligible for nearly all players. 

Also, there is actually very little difference in term of how a good shot feels between various clubs. A nicely struck Mizuno feels lovely as I am sure nearly everyone knows.  But it is the same with a Ping iron really. Out of the sweet spot feels smashing with any club. 


Enjoy your forged irons with small heads. Enjoy the sound they make at impact and that feeling of joy when you properly middle one. But probably best to say you have them because you like them rather than because of what they do to your scores. 


Golf is about the player, not the club (within reason before anyone pipes up with a hair splitting example).


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## guest100718 (Oct 9, 2013)

Is there anything to back up the claims about GI irons making the game easier? Other than anecdotal evidence provided by forum members? I hear things like they are worth 4 to 5 shots a round being banded about but when you look at the areas where shots are lost, these types of claims don't stack up very well.


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## Mungoscorner (Oct 9, 2013)

I was going to suggest that the thread be closed after Snelly's post, because he has summed the argument up perfectly, but obviously he will have just added petrol to the fire by suggesting that most on here aren't as good as they think they are ( which is spot on ).


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## tsped83 (Oct 9, 2013)

Snelly said:



			Quite a long thread.  Some interesting views.  

My thoughts are that if you want players clubs / blades / etc. then fine.  Buy them and enjoy them.   As I have said before, blades are for people that like blades and clubs that give you a bit more help are for the rest. 

My own view is that you're a bit daft if you have bladed irons and a handicap of more than about 3.  There are no pictures on scorecards and a well struck forged iron is neither here nor there when you post your score.   Still, each to their own and if a crunching shot from a forged club gets you excited then good for you.   But it would be more sensible to just say that you play with them because you like them rather than justifying it with reasons that don't stack up.  Golf is easier with Ping Zings than it is with a set of Maxfli Australian Blades.  Anyone saying otherwise is frankly clueless.   And the same argument applies to a lesser extent if you take less extreme examples. It is just common sense. 

Secondly, all this about shaping shots being easier with forged irons needs a bit of plain speaking.  First things first, most of the golfers on this forum (me included) are not good enough to hit draws, fades, high or low shots on command, despite what you might say. It doesn't matter what club is in your hand really.  An exceptional player can hit these shots when required, irrespective of whether he has a Ping or Mizuno iron to hit the ball with. Average players can't. The level of workability between the two clubs is negligible for nearly all players. 

Also, there is actually very little difference in term of how a good shot feels between various clubs. A nicely struck Mizuno feels lovely as I am sure nearly everyone knows.  But it is the same with a Ping iron really. Out of the sweet spot feels smashing with any club. 


Enjoy your forged irons with small heads. Enjoy the sound they make at impact and that feeling of joy when you properly middle one. But probably best to say you have them because you like them rather than because of what they do to your scores. 


Golf is about the player, not the club (within reason before anyone pipes up with a hair splitting example).
		
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Amen brother.


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## garyinderry (Oct 9, 2013)

the debate is about so called players clubs vs game improvenent irons.  not the differences between cast and forged clubs!


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 9, 2013)

Posted at the start of this and with a busy few days have just caught up with all the fun and festivities over the past few days on this topic. 

Some really interesting points on both sides of the argument - for me, Snelly's post a few above this sums up everything really well, and I would have to agree pretty much entirely with what he's put. To break a horrendous taboo and retype what I'd put at the start my opinion is still 100% this ...
_
'The way I see it, the more I play, the better I'll get, the more I'll hit it out of the middle which makes the forgiveness less relevant. But, until then, I'm perfectly happy to get a bit of a helping hand from technology.'_


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## HughJars (Oct 9, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Just to turn this on its head a little.....

Is anything gained from a blade/players iron on a good, solid hit from the centre of a clubface over a more forgiving iron?

Just curious as I'm considering more forgiving irons........
		
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Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 9, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.
		
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Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?


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## kid2 (Oct 10, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.
		
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HawkeyeMS said:



			Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?
		
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Im wondering the same thing myself Hawkeye......

Playing what i play im not trying to boost my Ego...... I play what i play because i like the look of them and i also hit them well......
As an aside.... I have vouchers in my pocket for the club shop.... My name is currently being put on the honours list in the form of a Scratch cup that i won with a score of Gross 75....... And iv dropped my handicap from 14.1 to 9.7 so far this season.......
Oh and i dont use *Pings*


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## HughJars (Oct 10, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?
		
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Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea? 

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!


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## HughJars (Oct 10, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?
		
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Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people". 

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower? 

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people". 

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower? 

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.
		
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Back viewing this thread for the 1st time in awhile and nothing much has changed!

While I don't see the rather extreme post above lasting very long, I agree with a moderated (ha!) version of it - along the lines of Snelly's virtual repeat of what he posted significantly earlier.

Basically, play what you like best but, if you wish to score the best you can - and you are not (practicing as much as) a Professional, the more forgiving, the better!

Gareth, off 13 after 3 years, has made (a lot) better than average progress imo.  I'm unconvinced whether GI clubs would have made a huge difference - maybe 1 or 2 shots? Likewise, Homer hasn't made the leap you state happens with the move from vanity/ego clubs to being well fitted with Ping G-series - and I doubt there's anyone on here who is more dedicated!

Kid has come down significantly this year - and with 'Players' clubs. Would he have come down more with GI ones? I doubt it - as the good/bad strike would have been masked, so the devoted practicer is probably hampered by using GI clubs! 

Btw. The sweet spot is exactly that - a spot! It is the point on the face directly in line with the CofG of the head (in conjunction with the shaft).  I don't believ those numbers on the TM clubs relate to all of the areas depicted. An allowance needs to be made for Marketing B/s - and TM seems the best at it!


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## HawkeyeMS (Oct 10, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea? 

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!
		
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HughJars said:



			Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people". 

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower? 

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.
		
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Two replies, what do I do to deserve that 

I didn't say you don't know what you're talking about, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge on this subject, in fact further up the thread I said I agreed with you in general. You have however mentioned ego several times and not just in response to Gareth and it comes accross as though you think everyone should be using GI clubs and those who don't are egotistical when in many cases, ego has nothing to do with it.

At the end of the day you are right in most cases but if Gareth or anyone else decides not to use GI clubs (after visiting one of your former peers) and is making progress they are happy with, who is anyone, knowledgeable on the subject or not, to tell him otherwise.


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## garyinderry (Oct 10, 2013)

surely a life long hacker dropping a handful of shots due to his new pings is nothing to write home about.  no amount of forgivness will give a golfer the long and short game to go low!

clubs dont make the player!


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## hors limite (Oct 10, 2013)

I am sure that a "life long hacker" would be highly chuffed to drop a "handful of shots" whether with new pings or any other GI clubs. If they didn't write home about it they might stick a post on this forum to share the good news and hope that some of the "better" golfers might offer a pat on the back.
You never know but the rosy glow of success might even provide the impetus to take some lessons, work hard and practice and  throw off the pejorative mantle of the life long hacker.


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## tsped83 (Oct 10, 2013)

Mr Hugh Jars,

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you're saying (Ping fan boy right here), your singling out of Gareth and raking home over the coals is a bit unnecessary no? If the guy chooses to play those clubs, which I agree may make things a little more difficult than some Ping shovels, who are we to care or persecute him for it? It is his choice after all.

Let's all have a hug

x x x x x


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## guest100718 (Oct 10, 2013)

hors limite said:



			I am sure that a "life long hacker" would be highly chuffed to drop a "handful of shots" whether with new pings or any other GI clubs. If they didn't write home about it they might stick a post on this forum to share the good news and hope that some of the "better" golfers might offer a pat on the back.
You never know but the rosy glow of success might even provide the impetus to take some lessons, work hard and practice and  throw off the pejorative mantle of the life long hacker.
		
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To get better you need to practise. id be willing to bet that  changing clubs would make little to no difference at all.


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## One Planer (Oct 10, 2013)

HughJars said:



			Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea? 

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!
		
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HughJars said:



			Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people". 

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower? 

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.
		
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:rofl:  ..... Well Hugh, I'll grant you this, you've put a big smile on my face this morning 

I'll answer your points as you've written them. 

Firstly, Titleist Long clubs and a Scotty Cameron  putter. Since moving to these, on recommendation of a *qualified PGA professional and club fitter* my overall carry has *increased*, while my dispresion has *decreased* and have a more *stabe* flight to my shots. Is this a bad thing?

I was also fitted for my Scotty Cameron, by a *qualified PGA professional and club fitter* for this club also. My putting has always been steady and I feel confident in my choice of putter.

Your "All the gear, no idea comment". Your opinion and rightly welcome to it.

As for the quip about how long I've been playing. Clearly you have your panties in a twist over this so I'll clarify. Every club in my bag, every single one has either been fitted by a *qualified teaching professional and club fitter*, or recommended by the afforementioned person(s). Perhaps these people don't know as much as they claim to then? Would that be a fair assumption in light of your comments?

Next - Bag full fo 'ego clubs'. Those ego clubs have dropped me 2 shots this year off my handicap. I've only missed buffer and received a 0.1 increase *twice* over the whole season which, also, has me in line for an annual reduction. Obviously these clubs are wrong for me, and I'm clearly incapable of using them effectively 

As for this bit:



HughJars said:



			Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap
		
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So, As soon as they come ot see *you* to get fitted for a set of Ping clubs they stop duffing, slicing, hooking, thinning, topping and knock, your words, *a heap of shots off their handicap*? I think it's you that has the ego issues. Either that or are seriously deluded into the actual effect of GI clubs for the handicap, club, golfer. 

Oh, and as regards to this:



HughJars said:



			Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.
		
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Have a few bits and pieces to collect at this years awards evening. Oh, yes there are vouchers for lowest gross (77) in competition play and a little sliverware to go along with it for a few competition wins. While the club captian, who has a bag *full* of Ping has won *nothing* and his handicap is in reverse :thup:

You keep telling yourself I cant use my clubs :thup: You keep telling yourself I'm on an ego trip :thup: As I've said before, it's your *opinion*and you're welcome to it :thup:

The only thing further I will say, regarding the above, is my reducing handicap, seasons scoring performance and awards due to be picked up *prove* to me that I'm more than capable of using these clubs effectively to score well. If you want to make the sweeping generalization that all people above a handicap are incapable of playing 'players' irons, you go right ahead :thup:








Oh, and as for this:



HughJars said:



			I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.
		
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If you want t go fishing, you're going to need better bait than that :thup:


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2013)

Gareth said:



			:rofl:  ..... Well Hugh, I'll grant you this, you've put a big smile on my face this morning 

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:rofl:

That reply made me laugh too! Well done on on this season'd results. :clap:

And before Hugh does make a further Hugh Jars of himself....

Just imgine what you could have achieved with a set of GI clubs!


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## One Planer (Oct 10, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:

That reply made me laugh too! Well done on on this season'd results. :clap:

And before Hugh does make a further Hugh Jars of himself....

Just imgine what you could have achieved with a set of GI clubs! 

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The best of it is Foxy, I agree with him as far as GI irons having a place in the market. 

I would never dream of saying every player, regardless of handicap, should play blades.

What I've said, all they way through the thread, if you feel/want extra forgiveness from your irons you have all the choice in the world when it comes to GI irons. If you feel you *dont* want the _help_ and would prefer to feel a bad shot when you hit one, prefer a smaller head with less off-set, you also have options.

It's all about choice. 

I've made mine and I'm happy with it :thup:

With reagrds to how I _could_ have done playing more forgiving irons, not much would be my honest answer.

A duffed pitch is still duffed no matter if it's a GI or blade club being used.

A pull, is still a pull, but my only saving grace would be that a mis-hit pull with a player irons wont fly as far into the clag :smirk:


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2013)

Gareth said:



			The best of it is Foxy, I agree with him as far as GI irons having a place in the market. ness a
.
.

With reagrds to how I _could_ have done playing more forgiving irons, not much would be my honest answer.

A duffed pitch is still duffed no matter if it's a GI or blade club being used.

A pull, is still a pull, but my only saving grace would be that a mis-hit pull with a player irons wont fly as far into the clag :smirk:
		
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My last comment had more than a hint of sarcasm - which you may or may not have realised - we really do need a 'sarcastic' Smiley! Can you organise one?  

I'd already suggested 'not much' too as the forgiving nature of GI clubs also disguises the misses.

And Hugh's hypothesis fails the Homer test as well.

There's a degree of logic about starting to play with GIs, learning to hit with blades and playing with what you like the look/feel of.


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## Snelly (Oct 10, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			While I don't see the rather extreme post above lasting very long, I agree with a moderated (ha!) version of it - along the lines of Snelly's virtual repeat of what he posted significantly earlier.
		
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No apologies for repeating.  Some people need telling a few times....


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## CMAC (Oct 10, 2013)

I can't drive like Schumacher but it still doesnt stop me driving (wanting) an Aston GT4 :smirk:


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2013)

HughJars said:



			I appreciate you expressing your _opinion_ Gareth.

In my _qualified experience_ however, your opinion is incorrect.
		
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Other than being a Club Fitter (Are you qualified?) and seeming a rather unpleasant person, can you play golf?    Just interested!


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