# Building lag



## USER1999 (Jan 8, 2012)

Have spent most of this weekend working on my new swing, which is going ok. But one of the things that I am finding difficult is getting my hands more forward at impact, and getting any lag at all. Hitting the ball fine, swing looks better, flight is a bit high (obviously, since my hands aren't forward enough at impact).

Has any one else tried to add some lag, and if so, any tips?


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## rickg (Jan 8, 2012)

Imagine you are standing in a swimming pool with the water up to your waist........try to ensure the butt end of the club enters the water before the club head.......
no charge...:thup:


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## Aztecs27 (Jan 8, 2012)

There was a video posted last week which had a drill to help this (along that same thinking as Rick's tip). Can I find it now? Can I heck!


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## USER1999 (Jan 8, 2012)

rickg said:



			Imagine you are standing in a swimming pool with the water up to your waist........try to ensure the butt end of the club enters the water before the club head.......
no charge...:thup:
		
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Hmm, sounds a recipe for shanking to me.


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## Scouser (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Hmm, sounds a recipe for shanking to me.
		
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No shanking in the pool


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## rickg (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Hmm, sounds a recipe for shanking to me.
		
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Will also improve your butterfly stroke....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU7QNG8tQQY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## USER1999 (Jan 8, 2012)

rickg said:



			Will also improve your butterfly stroke....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU7QNG8tQQY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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That is so gay.


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## patricks148 (Jan 8, 2012)

rickg said:



			Will also improve your butterfly stroke....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU7QNG8tQQY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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What i want to know is why is he wearing googles????


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## Lump (Jan 8, 2012)

patricks148 said:



			What i want to know is why is he wearing googles????
		
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1448 people have thought the exact same thing.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 8, 2012)

One lesson I had on this and my coach put a tee peg in the butt of my club and I had to focus on pointing that at a spot just past the ball for as long as I could/dare !! It works for me and I play with it on the range until I go too far and get an unmentionable - from that point I just ease it off a bit...


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## Lump (Jan 8, 2012)

AmandaJR said:



			One lesson I had on this and my coach put a tee peg in the butt..[some other stuff about a golf swing].....
		
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Whoooaahh.. I was wandering were you where going with that Amanda..:mmm: :rofl:


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## CMAC (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Has any one else tried to add some lag, and if so, any tips?
		
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Adam Hunter R.I.P, had me focus on holding the wrists, once they have naturally set, for as long as I could on the downswing, try it, it works, and you'll still find you are releasing too early if you video it, takes a good deal of practice and when you hold it properly you will see and feel a completely different golf shot that might even make you smile.

To start with Murph he insisted on trying it with a half swing, 6 iron and no more than 50 balls to get the 'feel' before trying full shots

good luck


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## JustOne (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			That is so gay.
		
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DON'T try it in the bath Murph... unless that guy is there to hold you


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## Region3 (Jan 8, 2012)

DarthVega said:



			focus on holding the wrists, once they have naturally set, for as long as I could on the downswing, try it, it works, and you'll still find you are releasing too early if you video it
		
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I agree with this. It takes a lot of strength to stop the club coming through at all on the downswing. I set my wrists by the top of the backswing then don't think about doing anything with them. When your hands slow down near the hitting area the forces on the club will pull it round without you having to do anything.


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## USER1999 (Jan 8, 2012)

Why do your hands slow down? 

My coach is trying to get me to hold the angles for longer, but obviously I am finding it difficult. The centrifugal force (even with my slow swing speed) chucks the club out unless I hold it in a grip of iron, when I don't release it, and shank it instead.


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## JustOne (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			The centrifugal force (even with my slow swing speed) chucks the club out unless I hold it in a grip of iron, when I don't release it, and shank it instead.
		
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There is no such thing as centrifugal force.


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## Region3 (Jan 8, 2012)

JustOne said:



			There is no such thing as centrifugal force.
		
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I thought it was a contentious point, no definitive answer either way.

You could say centripetal force but more people have heard of centrifugal I reckon, whether it's legitimate or not.


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## Region3 (Jan 8, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Why do your hands slow down?
		
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I don't know, I just thought they did 

I thought they came down to hip height fairly quickly then eased the rest of the way through. I'm probably wrong.


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## bobmac (Jan 8, 2012)

Murph, try addressing the ball as normal but just before you hit it, stand up straight and make a swing at an imaginary ball about shoulder height. Swing the club about level with the height of your shoulders like a baseball bat and you should feel the lag occur naturally.
Then lower to the ball and try and feel the same


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## sev112 (Jan 8, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I thought it was a contentious point, no definitive answer either way.

You could say centripetal force but more people have heard of centrifugal I reckon, whether it's legitimate or not.
		
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yes there is  - it just acts in a differnt direction and on a different object than centripetal


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## JustOne (Jan 8, 2012)

sev112 said:



			yes there is - it just acts in a differnt direction and on a different object than centripetal
		
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What direction and what object?


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## JustOne (Jan 8, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Swing the club about level with the height of your shoulders like a baseball bat and you should feel the lag occur naturally.
		
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You've obviously never seen Murph swing a baseball bat then? Normally it ruffles his skirt


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## Region3 (Jan 8, 2012)

Copied and pasted from elsewhere on the www.

Centrifugal Force, in physics, the tendency of an object following a curved path to fly away from the center of curvature. Centrifugal force is not a true force; it is a form of inertia (the tendency of objects that are moving in a straight line to continue moving in a straight line). Centrifugal force is referred to as a force for convenienceâ€”because it balances centripetal force, which is a true force. If a ball is swung on the end of a string, the string exerts centripetal force on the ball and causes it to follow a curved path. The ball is said to exert centrifugal force on the string, tending to break the string and fly off on a tangent.


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## JustOne (Jan 8, 2012)

Region3 said:



The ball is *said* to exert centrifugal force on the string, tending to break the string and fly off on a tangent.

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That's right, there is no outward force on the string only inward (centripetal) that is why if the string breaks the object will only go forwards on a tangent to it's position on the arc. The 'feeling' of outwards is just that, a feeling, not a force.


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2012)

Does any of this actually help?


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2012)

I got more lag simply by starting the downswing from a legs/hip turn being what triggers the start of the downswing, rather than the hands/arms. I feel the hands/club lagging closer to the body and then releasing much later than it did before. The other benefit is that it makes me pull the club straighter down the line


Chris


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Does any of this actually help?
		
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Don't want to put the mockers on your new swing mate.

Generally having forward shaft lean and retaining the angle set in the right wrist at address through impact would be sufficient.


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2012)

Shaft lean at address is fine, I'm just losing the angles a bit early. Going to mess about tonight with starting the swing slower, and then going for it a bit later. Also have a go with swinging it base ball style.

@chris, my coach is adamant that the swing does not start from a leg or hip movement, and the arms drive the swing. For the moment, I'm sticking with him on this, as other wise there is no point in going any further.

Other than the lag business, I am fairly happy with what we have achieved in quite a short time. It looks much better, and I think will be a swing that will last. My previous swing was killing me, and hopefully some of my back issues will be reduced with the work we are doing.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			@chris, my coach is adamant that the swing does not start from a leg or hip movement, and the arms drive the swing. For the moment, I'm sticking with him on this, as other wise there is no point in going any further.
		
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I think that view is pretty at odds with most teachings.

 The biggest fault of most golfers is the over the top swing and is more likely to occur when people start the downswing with the hand and arms, although I readily admit that when I was starting with the hands and arms I could, more or less, get back on track on the downswing (except on the bad days).

I think that you have to trust your teaching pro Murph but starting with the hips has made a real improvement in my strike and dispersment  and I don't see too many pro golfers who havn't got a signicant hip turn in before they strike the ball.


Chris


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## Region3 (Jan 9, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Does any of this actually help?
		
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From the top of the backswing, do you try to push the club downwards with your hands/wrists?

The only ways I can think of where you wouldn't have enough lag are if you don't set your wrists fully by the top of the swing, or if you physically try to straighten that angle between hand and club on the way down.

What all the garbage about forces actually means to a golf swing is that all you have to do is keep hold of the club while you're swinging around your body, and the magic of whatever force we call it will release the lag as the head speeds up and exerts more force on your hands/wrists as it tries to travel in a straight line but can't due to being on the other end of the golf club that you're holding.


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## Region3 (Jan 9, 2012)

chrisd said:



			I think that you have to trust your teaching pro Murph but starting with the hips has made a real improvement in my strike and dispersment  and I don't see too many pro golfers who havn't got a signicant hip turn in before they strike the ball.
		
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The last time I had a lesson, the coach wanted me to use less hips on the downswing and asked me to feel like I was swinging with my arms first.
The important word is _feel_, because that isn't what was really happening.
I had so much hip movement that by feeling that my arms were doing all the work the hips calmed down to an acceptable level. I wasn't actually swinging with my arms only, but that's how it felt compared to what I was use to.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2012)

Region3 said:



			The last time I had a lesson, the coach wanted me to use less hips on the downswing and asked me to feel like I was swinging with my arms first.
The important word is _feel_, because that isn't what was really happening.
I had so much hip movement that by feeling that my arms were doing all the work the hips calmed down to an acceptable level. I wasn't actually swinging with my arms only, but that's how it felt compared to what I was use to.
		
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Quite right Region, thats why I added that you have to trust your teaching pro, you can never be sure why he wants you to do something



Chris


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## Aztecs27 (Jan 9, 2012)

chrisd said:



			Quite right Region, thats why I added that you have to trust your teaching pro, you can never be sure why he wants you to do something



Chris
		
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So I shouldn't question the fact that my teaching pro wants me to wear tight trousers and shirts to all our lessons?


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2012)

Aztecs, you really shouldn't be taking lessons from Rickg?

I am wondering if I need to start slower, and not hit from the top. I have no issues with an over the top swing as I am now nicely on plane. 

I can't really see how you can pull the hands down to start the down swing. If your left arm is straight, you would have to dislocate your shoulder to pull straight down? All your hands can do is move in a rotary fashion around your left shoulder. A bit of a hip bump towards the target should move the centre of this swing forwards.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I can't really see how you can pull the hands down to start the down swing. If your left arm is straight, you would have to dislocate your shoulder to pull straight down? All your hands can do is move in a rotary fashion around your left shoulder. A bit of a hip bump towards the target should move the centre of this swing forwards.
		
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This is Aaron Baddeley's hand path [red line].....


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			So I shouldn't question the fact that my teaching pro wants me to wear tight trousers and shirts to all our lessons?
		
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Is you Pro - male - female - not sure  ?


chris


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## rickg (Jan 9, 2012)

Aztecs27 said:



			So I shouldn't question the fact that my teaching pro wants me to wear tight trousers and shirts to all our lessons?
		
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You only need to worry if they ask you to wear speedos and goggles.....and ask you to get your butt in the water before your shaft


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2012)

JustOne said:



			This is Aaron Baddeley's hand path [red line].....

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That's impossible, unless he bends his arm.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2012)

Blimey and I get mullered on here for trying to make things too hard for myself. I think my crown is heading down to Murph


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## Region3 (Jan 9, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			That's impossible, unless he bends his arm.
		
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If his shoulder stayed in the same place I'd agree with you, but as his arm is moving down and out in an arc, his shoulder is moving out and up around his spine.


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## DaveM (Jan 9, 2012)

This has totally lost me. I always thought lag was one of those things that just happened.


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## JustOne (Jan 9, 2012)

DaveM said:



			This has totally lost me. I always thought lag was one of those things that just happened.
		
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It does if you don't flip your hands at the ball. I'd have thought Murph's S&T knowledge would put him in good stead with the flying wedge drill.


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2012)

I have never had any lag in my swing, even with s and t. It is one of those things you either have or don't, and is very hard to change (in my view).

I have a swing currently, where I can hit it as hard as I like, and not lose it left. I quite like it, but there is no visible lag (on video).

If I try to introduce lag, I shank it. It feels like I am leading in with the hozel, and I guess I am, as I shank every one. This is not going to change really, as I have now shanked about 1200 balls in the last week. There must be more to building lag than just holding the angles longer. There has to be something wrong with the way I then release the club. 

Currently baffled on this one.


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## oakey22 (Jan 10, 2012)

I find i hit the ball better when i think on the downswing about holding the lag. If i dont then i hit it fat.


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2012)

DaveM said:



			This has totally lost me. I always thought lag was one of those things that just happened.
		
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Then I guess you are lucky. But have you seen slo mo video of your swing? How do you know you have it?


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I have never had any lag in my swing, even with s and t. It is one of those things you either have or don't, and is very hard to change (in my view).

I have a swing currently, where I can hit it as hard as I like, and not lose it left. I quite like it, but there is no visible lag (on video).

If I try to introduce lag, I shank it. It feels like I am leading in with the hozel, and I guess I am, as I shank every one. This is not going to change really, as I have now shanked about 1200 balls in the last week. There must be more to building lag than just holding the angles longer. There has to be something wrong with the way I then release the club.
		
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1) At impact do you have a flat left wrist and some angle in your right wrist?

2) Are your hands slightly ahead of the ball at impact with a little shaft lean (grip towards target)?.


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2012)

1/ no. I would like to.

2/ No, again, this is what I am trying to achieve.

It is hard to explain, but if I release the angles early, like swinging an axe, then I have ages to square the face of the club.
If I try to maintain the angles, so that there is time to get my hands more forward at impact, and my right wrist still bent, I feel there is no time to square the club face, and the ball comes off the hozel. Despite what 'the natural' golfers amongst us would have, just hitting hundreds of balls is not making this any better.

I need to speak to my coach, as there is much I do not understand about lag.

For instance, he wants me to chip with the ball further forward, so the club comes in shallow, and uses the bounce. This will be more forgiving.

But with an iron, this is precisely what I am doing, and yet it is perceived to be wrong. But I am striping it.

I love golf. It is so flipping simple.


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## Evesdad (Jan 10, 2012)

Well I'm confused!! Where does this feeling of pulling a chain come in?


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok Murph.... I borrowed the washing line..............

Here's a video of how lag works.... imagine I'm using my forearm like a club.. the first 3 'swings' are with no lag, the angle in my elbow is lost and my arm straightens.

The next 3 the elbow remains bent, this is lag. I turn my body to get my forearm level with the camera (eg: the ball)

I then repeat this on an inclined plane (like a golf swing) and then actually use a 'bat' and do 3 swings with no lag and 3 with....

[video=youtube;J9vY544lta8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9vY544lta8[/video]






Part 2 is just uploading now.....


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## G1BB0 (Jan 10, 2012)

I bet your neighbours think your nuts 

explains it very well and something I am trying to implement at the moment (with not too bad results)


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			I bet your neighbours think your nuts 

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They're all dead! MMMWWahahahahahah!!! 


Here's the second vid showing 3 swings with no lag (club flips down to the ball and wrist angle is lost)... and 3 swings with maximum lag (wrist angle is maintained and the turn squares the 'club').... and then a swing example...

[video=youtube;HjB6d8EpfgM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjB6d8EpfgM[/video]


(Don't know what happened there but the picture wont show properly.... will try again below.....)


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

the wrist angle that you have *halfway down* is maintained through impact in a swing with lag.... the turn squares the clubface so NO rolling, flipping or manipulation of the clubface is required.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2012)

JustOne said:



			the wrist angle that you have *halfway down* is maintained through impact in a swing with lag.... the turn squares the clubface so NO rolling, flipping or manipulation of the clubface is required. 


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Even on the driver?


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Even on the driver?
		
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David Toms - Dustin Johnson - Rory McIlroy




....... average players! 


(Nb: I wouldn't expect 'grandad' in the weekly roll-up to be able to retain this much lag but still wouldn't expect him to dump all the lag into the ground by flipping the wrists... some is better than none).


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2012)

Sorry, I meant you would like the more athletic say, to get to this position with the driver?


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

Yes.... and they should also use a hurley and hit a sliotar instead of using PRO V's 

Remembering of course to take a patio slab (or two) to hit off :mmm:


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Yes.... and they should also use a hurley and hit a sliotar instead of using PRO V's 

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I only asked as I randomly found this picture on the internet.


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## pendodave (Jan 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Murph, try addressing the ball as normal but just before you hit it, stand up straight and make a swing at an imaginary ball about shoulder height. Swing the club about level with the height of your shoulders like a baseball bat and you should feel the lag occur naturally.
Then lower to the ball and try and feel the same
		
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Sorry to backtrack a day or two, but I wonder if some insight can be offered on this. I have tried this movement and get a lovely feeling of lag and late release, but when I take a golf stance it seems impossible to replicate. Suggesting that something about the leaning over in the address position inhibits a movement which is easy when vertical.

So it there any particular fault in the address position which would cause the correct movements to be physiologically impossible (or at least much harder to achieve) ? And what is the 'key' which is subconsiously so easy in the swing when vertical ? How can it be replicated when bent over at a variety of angles from driver stance to 9 iron ?


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2012)

If I understand your question properly...
Why can you do it standing up straight but not bent over the ball?
When you do the drill I suggested, you are swinging at right angles to your bodyso the swing path is at 90 degrees to your torso.
When you bend forward to address the ball, the club isn't swung at the same angle relative to your torso. Plus the ball will be there and put you off. Its just a feeling...a drill


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I only asked as I randomly found this picture on the internet.

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Ha! You're in one of those funny moods today that I'm normally in  LOLOL 

You can't release the club like that if you don't have the lag through impact, you'd already have flipped it round your ears


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## Region3 (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm  now.

I thought the point of lag was to hold on to the angle as long as possible THEN almost fully release it near impact, to generate more clubhead speed. i.e. the club moves a long way just before impact as the hands hardly move at all, like a catapult.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Ha! You're in one of those funny moods today that I'm normally in  LOLOL
		
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I found one of you missus but it's ok, you'd never know it's her


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

Region3 said:



			I'm  now.

I thought the point of lag was to hold on to the angle as long as possible THEN almost fully release it near impact, to generate more clubhead speed. i.e. the club moves a long way just before impact as the hands hardly move at all, like a catapult.
		
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Release is extension of the arms post impact (see Bobmac's picture a couple of posts back) nothing to do with the wrists which tend to unhinge naturally as the arms extend and proceed around the torso. Anything else is classed as flipping and is (at best) inconsistent.


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			I found one of you missus but it's ok, *you'd never know it's her

*
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Nah... it's definitely her! :angry: ....I've told her about that!


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## pendodave (Jan 10, 2012)

bobmac said:



			If I understand your question properly...
Why can you do it standing up straight but not bent over the ball?
When you do the drill I suggested, you are swinging at right angles to your bodyso the swing path is at 90 degrees to your torso.
When you bend forward to address the ball, the club isn't swung at the same angle relative to your torso. Plus the ball will be there and put you off. Its just a feeling...a drill
		
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yes, you did understand the question (sorry about the convoluted prose).

So, if I understand the answer, it doesn't work when you're in the 'golfing' position because your arms are no longer at such an advantageous angle. Presumably this means that your torso inhibits the free movement of your arms which gives the lovely laggy feeling.

So what can I do in my swing to try and get it back ? hold my arms stretched out more like the old Canadian chappy ? Move the torso out of the way with a hip shift while leaving the arms behind ? Bend over more ????

It seems particularly cruel that we play the game in a way which makes it so hard to achieve what we want !

dc


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## JustOne (Jan 10, 2012)

Pendodave, if you do the baseball drill with the bat approx waist high you should (in theory) be able to duplicate it once you are bent over at the waist. Rather as I did with the 'bat' in the video above.


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2012)

I had a bit of a eureka moment at the range today. Need to video it tomorrow to make sure, but I think it is coming.

It is to do with my wrists, and what they do as I take the club back. What I am doing now, and what I was doing yesterday, look the same at the top, but yesterday's version is bio mechanically impossible to return the club face square. Today's version feels closed (it isn't), but enables more lag. Was giving it some tonight, and not a shank in sight. Well, till I started chipping.

I will check tomorrow night, to see what it looks like. Will be disappointed if there isn't a sniff of a bit of lag.

In the mean time, nice video, but you need a more modern golf club. 

Cheers James, (and bob),  thanks for your input. I will get there in the end.


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## Scouser (Jan 10, 2012)

JO ...they had me laughing when i first saw those videos....BUT wow how easy is that to understand now  :thup::clap:

When is the DVD out????????????????


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## Region3 (Jan 10, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I had a bit of a eureka moment at the range today. Need to video it tomorrow to make sure, but I think it is coming.

It is to do with my wrists, and what they do as I take the club back. What I am doing now, and what I was doing yesterday, look the same at the top, but yesterday's version is bio mechanically impossible to return the club face square. Today's version feels closed (it isn't), but enables more lag. Was giving it some tonight, and not a shank in sight. Well, till I started chipping.

I will check tomorrow night, to see what it looks like. Will be disappointed if there isn't a sniff of a bit of lag.

In the mean time, nice video, but you need a more modern golf club. 

Cheers James, (and bob),  thanks for your input. I will get there in the end.
		
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Quite ironic that you're now getting it just as 284 other forum members are getting more confused!


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## G1BB0 (Jan 10, 2012)

thats the way golf works tho isnt it Gary? :whoo:


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## USER1999 (Jan 10, 2012)

Region3 said:



			Quite ironic that you're now getting it just as 284 other forum members are getting more confused! 

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Did I ask them to continue reading?

If they had lag, stop reading, if they didn't and don't want it, stop reading, if they didn't, and wanted to know how, probably best to stop reading too.

How easy can it be?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2012)

One reason you may be getting the 'Jodralls' when trying to create lag is due to your wrist hinge.  If you roll the wrists open in the backswing then you will need to roll them back with very good timing at impact, if you dont you may have an open clubface that leads the hozel into the ball, 'Sherman' city.

I prefer an up and down hinge of the wrists, this helps to keep the clubface square to the swingpath and requires less manipulation.

Generating lag only needs the wrists to hinge back, if you introduce a slight pause at the top of the backswing and keep the wrists relaxed than the clubshaft will set naturally.  Dont do anything to remove the hinge as you come down.   Someone earlier mentioned that their hands slowed down near impact, they are correct, they do and you cant stop them.

As you swing down the rotational forces pass from the torso to the shoulders, from the shoulders to the arms, arms to wrists, wrists to clubshaft, clubshaft to clubhead.  As this force moves out to the shaft and clubhead the force will now be near to one ton, it will slow down your arm rotation as the forces move outwards.  You will not be able to stop the lag in the shaft from unwinding, it will be too powerful.  The way it will go wrong is if you either do not allow the wrists to hinge, manually remove the hinge too early, stop your body rotation or roll the wrists.

The Force that is transfered from torso to clubhead is called COAM (Cofficient Of Angular Momentum)  It is much like an ice skater that goes into a spin, as they pull their arms in they speed up and as they let them out they slow down due to COAM being retained in the torso or released out to the arms.


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## G1BB0 (Jan 10, 2012)

I like the bit about ice skaters, I cant relate it to golf though (not knocking by the way just my limited thought process)


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2012)

G1BB0 said:



			I like the bit about ice skaters, I cant relate it to golf though (not knocking by the way just my limited thought process)
		
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It explains how your arms slow down as the clubhead goes faster.  It's the forces passing from your arms to the clubshaft.   The ice skater spins fast as they keep the rotational forces in their torso.  As they hold out their arms the forces pass out to their arms and hands from their body which slows down their rotation.  This will be even more prounounced if the skater was holding weights in their hands.

If you are interested read up on COAM.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

Socket rocket, that is pretty much what I was doing. I have now stopped doing it for obvious reasons.

Cheers.


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## needmoreclub (Jan 11, 2012)

Murph, i've had the same problem for a while now and been working away trying to find a 'fix', the best method that works for me is to have a pronounced forward press as your kick start to taking the club back. Don't know the exact science of it but it works for me.


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## JustOne (Jan 11, 2012)

Probably shouldn't post this here but what the heck.....

A scene from Tiger Woods latest clinic........

[video=youtube;CcMU12ilqsk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcMU12ilqsk[/video]

If you want to see the rest there's a thread on GolfWRX http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/568117-tiger-woods-2011-clinic/


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## needmoreclub (Jan 11, 2012)

Justone, spot on mate, cheers.


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

I lied. I filmed my swing tonight, all 12 different ones. I still have no lag at all. Nadda, zilch, none. It is flipping depressing, and I am totally hacked off. Hitting it fine, but my hands are at best level with the ball, never in front. At this rate I will be giving up golf. I have put in two hours a day, for 8 days, minimum, and am no nearer to getting it right. I'm shanking less, but heck, I can hit my usual lag less swing and do that fine. And hit it longer, and straighter.

I now have a pause in my swing like Charles berkley, and am frightened to hit it at all.

Hacked off of Watford.
I am currently wondering what the point of this was. Golf is meant to be fun. This isn't.


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## JustOne (Jan 11, 2012)

Murph do you own an impact bag? ..... or even better there's a training club called 'tour striker' which is apparently amazing for teaching correct impact. If you buy one and hate it I'll buy it off you.... there you go


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I lied. I filmed my swing tonight, all 12 different ones. I still have no lag at all. Nadda, zilch, none. It is flipping depressing, and I am totally hacked off. Hitting it fine, but my hands are at best level with the ball, never in front. At this rate I will be giving up golf. I have put in two hours a day, for 8 days, minimum, and am no nearer to getting it right. I'm shanking less, but heck, I can hit my usual lag less swing and do that fine. And hit it longer, and straighter.

I now have a pause in my swing like Charles berkley, and am frightened to hit it at all.

Hacked off of Watford.
I am currently wondering what the point of this was. Golf is meant to be fun. This isn't.
		
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Make sure you maintain a hinge in the back of your right hand at impact.  This way your hands have to be ahead.   I think your problem is flipping your wrists through the ball.

Try this drill:  Take a hair comb and slide it down under your wristwatch on your left hand so that it lies over the back of your left hand and is held in place by your watch.  Make some half swings and try to keep the hinge in your right hand as you strike the ball, the comb will stop your left wrist from bending or flipping forward.  You will need to keep rotating your body through impact to square the clubface  but make sure that the right wrist does not lose the hinge.  When you get the feel of a crisp strike then do the same action with a full swing.


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## bobmac (Jan 11, 2012)

I am currently wondering what the point of this was. Golf is meant to be fun. This isn't.
		
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My thoughts too Chris.....

You're hitting the ball better, higher, straighter and less shanks.
What exactly are you trying to fix?


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## USER1999 (Jan 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			My thoughts too Chris.....

You're hitting the ball better, higher, straighter and less shanks.
What exactly are you trying to fix?
		
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I am wondering this myself.

The idea is to have a technically better swing, where I don't feel the need to change it every day. I am a bit like padraig, in that every day I have a little change, something I am fiddling with. I felt that if I had a few lessons, and had a direction, then I would be less in lined to tinker. However, once I have seen an impact position on video, where my hands are effectively behind my right leg at impact, then I need to change it, as I know this is wrong. But, I can't change it. At least, not by enough. It feels fine, I am striping it, I can hit it as hard as I want, and not lose it left, but that is no longer enough. having seen what is going on, I need to get this right. There are loads of people who find this easy.

 I have never found sport to be difficult, I have natural hand eye co-ordination, I have rhythm, I don't get why this is so hard.

I figure that in the time I have devoted to this I could have learned to play the saxophone.


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## JustOne (Jan 11, 2012)

What did your pro say Murph? Is he OK with your impact position? Surely 2 lessons isn't going to leave you fully recharged with a new swing.. doesn't it takes time for things to settle before you can impliment new parts?


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

I agree, that two lessons isn't going to give me an awesome looking swing. 

My pro is currently on holiday, and is back next Wednesday.

Lesson one moved the ball forward to the correct position. It took three weeks of playing and practice to get used to this, to the extent that it was natural, and I could hit it with a full swing. That said, I didn't practice as much as I could have done.

Lesson two looked at the results of lesson one, and the two things that stood out were I was getting stuck on the inside, and I had no lag. Hands at impact way behind the ball. I have a drill which is supposed to solve both. So far, it has fixed the being stuck on the inside, and I am now nicely on plane, with the butt of the club pointing at the ball. Fine.

But there is no lag. I have put stupid amounts of time into this, and at best, my hands are level with the ball at impact. In order to do this, I feel I am swinging more slowly, and have probably lost a heck of a lot of yardage. 

There is not much point in having another lesson until I can fix this, as all I am doing is paying him to stand there and tell me the same as I can already see.


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## chris661 (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			I agree, that two lessons isn't going to give me an awesome looking swing. 

My pro is currently on holiday, and is back next Wednesday.

Lesson one moved the ball forward to the correct position. It took three weeks of playing and practice to get used to this, to the extent that it was natural, and I could hit it with a full swing. That said, I didn't practice as much as I could have done.

Lesson two looked at the results of lesson one, and the two things that stood out were I was getting stuck on the inside, and I had no lag. Hands at impact way behind the ball. I have a drill which is supposed to solve both. So far, it has fixed the being stuck on the inside, and I am now nicely on plane, with the butt of the club pointing at the ball. Fine.

But there is no lag. I have put stupid amounts of time into this, and at best, my hands are level with the ball at impact. In order to do this, I feel I am swinging more slowly, and have probably lost a heck of a lot of yardage. 

There is not much point in having another lesson until I can fix this, as all I am doing is paying him to stand there and tell me the same as I can already see.
		
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I disagree he might spot something that can help go see him when you can then make the decision about how long you wait.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

I have a lesson booked on Wednesday.

I also have a better video camera, which I will use tonight. Hopefully it will look a touch better, as my other vc is not that good for frame by frame advance. With the new one, I should be able to import it into the V1 software, and get more of a view on what is happening.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2012)

Mog,

Without seeing your swing I still have a feeling you are releasing too early or flipping your wrists through impact.  This is a problem many golfers suffer from and is caused by your brain wanting to get the ball airborne.

The best way to deal with it in my opinion is to work on maintaining the bend in your right wrist at impact, this makes it impossible to have your hands behind the ball at impact, it also creates better ball compression and lag.

Just trying to help here, I think its worth trying the drill I gave you earlier.   Just try it with some easy half swings and make sure you rotate your body through to face the target.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks SR, I will give this a go, as I am definitley losing the angles. It is better than it was, but then that's not saying much. I appreciate your help.

I may post a video tomorrow.

Then again, I might not.....


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Thanks SR, I will give this a go, as I am definitley losing the angles. It is better than it was, but then that's not saying much. I appreciate your help.

I may post a video tomorrow.

Then again, I might not.....
		
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Mog,

I have attached a link to a website from a guy called Greg Willis, he promotes something he called 'The Right Hand Drill'  its along the lines that I have been explaining where you keep the bend in your right wrist through iompact,  I think it will be of some help to you.  There is also a link to a lesson where Greg is teaching someone how to do this drill.  Please have a look and maybe give it a little try..  What do you have to lose other than 15 minutes trying out somthing different.

http://mysite.verizon.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBMzEtLgyJk


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2012)

(Many pros will tell you to do this, but some if not most never tell you to keep this position throughout the swing - probably because they don't do it themselves).
		
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Pro knocking? ...no one likes that!!! 

I thought Murph said that he's playing the ball quite forward in his stance, to get the hands in front will require a sustantial lateral weight shift in the downswing. Any over rotation of the hips/shoulders and he will be cutting across the ball with it forward. Sounds like a very passive 'arms only swing'. I'd suggest loss of distance is guaranteed.


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## USER1999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Right now, I have not got a clue. I have some video, but it is stuck on a pos sony camcorder. I hate Sony. Really, really hate Sony. Even more than bill gates and apple combined.


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Right now, I have not got a clue. I have some video, but it is stuck on a pos sony camcorder. I hate Sony. Really, really hate Sony. Even more than bill gates and apple combined.
		
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I'm getting a sense that you don't like Sony?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Pro knocking? ...no one likes that!!! 

I thought Murph said that he's playing the ball quite forward in his stance, to get the hands in front will require a sustantial lateral weight shift in the downswing. Any over rotation of the hips/shoulders and he will be cutting across the ball with it forward. Sounds like a very passive 'arms only swing'. I'd suggest loss of distance is guaranteed.
		
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He said he had moved the ball forward to the correct position, from this I guess it was too far back.

Are you referring to my suggestion with the 'Passive arms only swing' ?


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2012)

No I was going on what I _thought_ he said when he was talking about his first lesson. I'd be interested to see his swing from face on, not that I'd comment on it of course................. 

Seriously though, whilst he's working with a pro I think it's best left alone.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			No I was going on what I _thought_ he said when he was talking about his first lesson. I'd be interested to see his swing from face on, not that I'd comment on it of course................. 

Seriously though, whilst he's working with a pro I think it's best left alone.
		
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He did ask for help and seems frustrated that his Pro is not sorting his problem.  I think my suggestion would help him achieve what he wants.


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2012)

SocketRocket said:



			He did ask for help and seems frustrated that his Pro is not sorting his problem. I think my suggestion would help him achieve what he wants.
		
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Sorry, crossed wires I was referring to myself. Your opinions are all valid ones Brian and I hope Murph finds the magic bullet. 



....I just hope he's not using Homer's old pro!


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## G1BB0 (Jan 12, 2012)

last spotted propping up a bar after resigning his PGA teaching status


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## DaveM (Jan 13, 2012)

murphthemog said:



			Then I guess you are lucky. But have you seen slo mo video of your swing? How do you know you have it?
		
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No not seen a vid. But have been told by several pro's I have one of the best hand releases they have ever seen in an am/golfer. Not that is does me much good though.


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