# Ever decreasing speed limits!



## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

I have a fairly old SatNav that has not been updated and shows speed limits as they where four or five years ago. It is very noticeable that many 60 or 70 limits have been reduced to 50 or 40, 50 limits to 40 or 30, and 30 limits to 20. At this rate we will be back to a man carrying a red flag in front of every vehicle! Who makes these decisions? Is it the railway lobby or something? 

My other pet hate is that it is often difficult to even see speed limit signs because they are hidden behind vegatation due to Local Government cuts in road maintenance. 

What is going on is virtually entrapment to extract more speeding fines from motorists, particularly as many speed limits are now ridiculously slow for the type of road!  :angry:


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## pbrown7582 (Oct 21, 2015)

Most roads are so congested the speed limit is irrelevant anyway.


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## Maninblack4612 (Oct 21, 2015)

Perhaps if they made the holes in the road bigger it wouldn't matter.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2015)

They are introduced because of the numpties who ignored the 'faster' speed limits.
I seldom go over 70mph on a motorway and 75% of motorist fly past me.

I was overtaken the other day on a notorious 20 mph school stretch.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 21, 2015)

Thread 1) Too many people on the roads, can't get anywhere quickly 
Thread 2) Speed limits are coming down, slowing everyone down.


I love your consistency Del


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## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

Maninblack4612 said:



			Perhaps if they made the holes in the road bigger it wouldn't matter.
		
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There are enough big potholes in the roads as it is thanks!


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## Khamelion (Oct 21, 2015)

It's kind of ironic that car safety has improved dramatically, to such an extent that many cars on the road today can stop well within the highway limits, even on a wet road. 

However no matter how safe you make a car, it the soft squidgy bit behind the steering wheel that determines how fast or how quick a car goes or stops and as long as humans control the car accidents will happen, and speed limits will continue to fall.

That written, watching the Traffic Cops program on the beeb the other day a traffic cop on patrol, said on camera that the government allow 10% plus 2, he was sitting watching cars go past on the M1, so he was only interested in those doing more than 79mph.


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## Imurg (Oct 21, 2015)

One reason for the reduction in speed limits is a cost reason.
The cost of those killed or seriously injured in crashes.
Bring speed limits down and you reduce impact speeds when there are crashes
Lower impact speeds lead to less killed or seriously injured so reducing the cost to the tÃ xpayer as these people are less likely to be admitted to Hospital, thus decreasing the burden on an already overstretched NHS

If you drive anywhere half regularly you get to know the speed limits and therefore shouldn't have a problem sticking to them. The fact that the majority don't is another whole thread.

The other alternative is to, maybe, update your SatNav.....


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2015)

The new part of M74 motorway has permanent 50 and 60 limits. So why did they bother building it to motorway specifications.


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## ger147 (Oct 21, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			The new part of M74 motorway has permanent 50 and 60 limits. So why did they bother building it to motorway specifications.

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Easy pickings for the Motherwell based traffic division.


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## garyinderry (Oct 21, 2015)

I'm pretty annoyed at older gentlemen who drive too fast, probably because their game of golf took too long due to crowned holes, big carries, normal size holes, a dose of the yips, strengthened lofts meaning over hitting greens and other crazy ideas that pop randomly into their heads.


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## pbrown7582 (Oct 21, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Easy pickings for the Motherwell based traffic division.
		
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which all helps town hall coffers....


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I'm pretty annoyed at older gentlemen who drive too fast, probably because their game of golf took too long due to crowned holes, big carries, normal size holes, a dose of the yips, strengthened lofts meaning over hitting greens and other crazy ideas that pop randomly into their heads.
		
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I always wear my leather driving gloves , flat cap, my Biggles scarf and of course my anorak, also my incontinence pants in case I PMSL. :ears:


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			The other alternative is to, maybe, update your SatNav.....
		
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But that would put a bigger hole in his pocket!


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## Alex1975 (Oct 21, 2015)

All roads should be de-restricted and we should teach people that the wide, black strips of tarmac we create are for big, blunt, fast objects and we need to not play on them and be very aware what they are for.


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## Paul77 (Oct 21, 2015)

I had a rare chance last night to drive along the country roads at the 60mph that has been set. I honestly lasted about 5 mins before my head was bursting and I was all sweaty. Didn't like it at all. The last time I sped a long a road was a massive straight coming out of Callander towards Aberfoyle. A massive Hare ran out in front of me but darted back in the nick of time. I'd have been in bits if I had killed that poor thing, plus not to mention the mess it would have made to my car. I take care on the roads now. It's more hassle than it's worth. 

Totally agree with the poor maintenance of road signs. Remember when Road Tax actually went on the roads.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 21, 2015)

Paul77 said:



			I had a rare chance last night to drive along the country roads at the 60mph that has been set. I honestly lasted about 5 mins before my head was bursting and I was all sweaty. Didn't like it at all. The last time I sped a long a road was a massive straight coming out of Callander towards Aberfoyle. A massive Hare ran out in front of me but darted back in the nick of time. I'd have been in bits if I had killed that poor thing, plus not to mention the mess it would have made to my car. I take care on the roads now. It's more hassle than it's worth. 

Totally agree with the poor maintenance of road signs. Remember when Road Tax actually went on the roads.
		
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Eeekkk, You sound rather rather non confident on the road.... Far more dangerous than someone who is perhaps over confident. If you have anything like a modern car its well worth knowing how amassing they are at not spinning, not sliding, getting stopped and so on. If someone is legally and safely doing the speed limit and your doing half of that the closing speeds can be a huge problem.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

ger147 said:



			Easy pickings for the Motherwell based traffic division.
		
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As I said in my original posting, reduced speed limits often amount to entrapment!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 21, 2015)

Paul77 said:



			I had a rare chance last night to drive along the country roads at the 60mph that has been set. I honestly lasted about 5 mins before my head was bursting and I was all sweaty. Didn't like it at all. The last time I sped a long a road was a massive straight coming out of Callander towards Aberfoyle. A massive Hare ran out in front of me but darted back in the nick of time. I'd have been in bits if I had killed that poor thing, plus not to mention the mess it would have made to my car. I take care on the roads now. It's more hassle than it's worth. 

Totally agree with the poor maintenance of road signs. Remember when Road Tax actually went on the roads.
		
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What is Road Tax? I don't think that exists... (or hasn't historically anyway)


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## Paul77 (Oct 21, 2015)

Alex1975 said:



			Eeekkk, You sound rather rather non confident on the road.... Far more dangerous than someone who is perhaps over confident. If you have anything like a modern car its well worth knowing how amassing they are at not spinning, not sliding, getting stopped and so on. If someone is legally and safely doing the speed limit and your doing half of that the closing speeds can be a huge problem.
		
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I'm actually a very confident driver. My mrs calls me cocky or says I push it a bit sometimes. I know my limits, well below the car of course. I have a 2010 3 series BMW and it's rubbish in the snow, wet, and generally the autumn. Hence why I take my time around the back roads of glasgow. Come summertime it's a free for all.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 21, 2015)

Paul77 said:



			I'm actually a very confident driver. My mrs calls me cocky or says I push it a bit sometimes. I know my limits, well below the car of course. I have a 2010 3 series BMW and it's rubbish in the snow, wet, and generally the autumn. Hence why I take my time around the back roads of glasgow. Come summertime it's a free for all.
		
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Coolio, your description of earlier seemed a little like it was something you did not enjoy. My bad.


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## Backache (Oct 21, 2015)

delc said:



			My other pet hate is that it is often difficult to even see speed limit signs because they are hidden behind vegatation due to Local Government cuts in road maintenance.
		
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We have has a stretch of road near us reduced from 40 to 30 to make it safer for the people living there. I have no great argument with this although it was not an obvious black spot but there is only one very small sign half hidden to indicate this. Most people travelling through have no idea the limit was changed and the police are coining it in with speed traps. Personally I have not been caught but it is hard to see that it makes it safer for anyone if most people are unaware of the limit.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 21, 2015)

Got to agree with the OP on this one. Upcoming plans to turn most of Edinburgh into a 20 mph zone is just the council's latest attack on the motorist, it's becoming impossible to drive around the city nowadays.

There's a stretch of motorway near my mum's that was 70 mph when I lived there and is now down to 50 for no apparent reason. Certainly perfectly safe to drive at 70 so this one puzzles me.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 21, 2015)

Backache said:



			We have has a stretch of road near us reduced from 40 to 30 to make it safer for the people living there. I have no great argument with this although it was not an obvious black spot but there is only one very small sign half hidden to indicate this. Most people travelling through have no idea the limit was changed and the police are coining it in with speed traps. Personally I have not been caught but it is hard to see that it makes it safer for anyone if most people are unaware of the limit.
		
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A reduction in the speed limit to a short length of the north circular came into force earlier this year... Notice of change wasn't great and signage was poor so the inevitable occurred... However so many appealed their penalties, in the end common sense prevailed and penalties were rescinded... 

Guessing this could be part of the reason why large notices are in place notifying the new average speed limits to A40 won't be enforced until Oct 26th...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			The new part of M74 motorway has permanent 50 and 60 limits. So why did they bother building it to motorway specifications.

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Is that the bit where they have traffic joining the motorway from the right


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that the bit where they have traffic joining the motorway from the right

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No Doon ,  its the new section from Cambuslang that bypasses the Kingston bridge

 You may be thinking of the M8 , joining from the right happens there when coming from the Great Western road.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

A stretch of a local urban A road, which had a 40 mph limit for donkeys years, was reduced to 30 mph a couple of years ago. The new 30 sign was very small and located just after a sharp bend with a new speed camera located about 50 yards further on. This caught out loads of local people, who hadn't realised that the limit had been changed!  As I said, deliberate entrapment to generate speeding fines!  :angry:


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## Imurg (Oct 21, 2015)

delc said:



			A stretch of a local urban A road, which had a 40 mph limit for donkeys years, was reduced to 30 mph a couple of years ago. The new 30 sign was very small and located just after a sharp bend with a new speed camera located about 50 yards further on. This caught out loads of local people, who hadn't realised that the limit had been changed!  As I said, deliberate entrapment to generate speeding fines!  :angry:
		
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So a 40 stretch comes down to a 30 and there is only 1 small sign...?
Bad signage and a case for appeal.
There should be a sign on either side of the road at the change point. If there isn't then its tricky to enforce a limit..
Don't forget that, if you have streetlights, a 30 zone doesn't need signs


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## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			So a 40 stretch comes down to a 30 and there is only 1 small sign...?
Bad signage and a case for appeal.
There should be a sign on either side of the road at the change point. If there isn't then its tricky to enforce a limit..
Don't forget that, if you have streetlights, a 30 zone doesn't need signs
		
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A road with street lighting needs repeaters if the speed limit is anything other than 30mph. If these had been removed, the change wouldn't have been that obvious, particularly when they were often missing or filthy dirty anyway!


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			So a 40 stretch comes down to a 30 and there is only 1 small sign...?
Bad signage and a case for appeal.
There should be a sign on either side of the road at the change point. If there isn't then its tricky to enforce a limit..
Don't forget that, if you have streetlights, a 30 zone doesn't need signs
		
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I seem to remember back in the 60/70s the distance between lamp posts, was different in 30 and 40 mph limits.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2015)

I wonder if all these reductions in speed limits is something to do with the green lobby and their obsession with reducing Carbon emissions? That was the reason for getting us to drive diesel cars, because they produce less Carbon Dioxide (CO2) per unit of work done. However, I don't believe that CO2 is that much of a problem, because it is a food for plants. Unfortunately Diesel engines produce quite a lot of Oxides of Nitrogen, which are the basic ingredient of Nitric Acid when combined with water. Also any air pollution caused by the UK is pretty minuscule compared with India and China!


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## Imurg (Oct 21, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			I seem to remember back in the 60/70s the distance between lamp posts, was different in 30 and 40 mph limits.

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The distance is 200 yards......so virtually any street lighting is going to fall into that .
Changed in '84


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## c1973 (Oct 21, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			The new part of M74 motorway has permanent 50 and 60 limits. So why did they bother building it to motorway specifications.

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Often ask myself the same question when I'm on the 74.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			The distance is 200 yards......so virtually any street lighting is going to fall into that .
Changed in '84
		
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My dog will be pleased .


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## c1973 (Oct 21, 2015)

The  A77, around Kilmarnock to Ayr is the same. Average speed cameras and a limit of 50mph for large stretches. 

No reason at all why the limit shouldn't be 70 (or more to be perfectly honest).


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2015)

Imurg said:



			The distance is 200 yards......so virtually any street lighting is going to fall into that .
Changed in '84
		
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Or 185 metres if you are in Scotland.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2015)

The trouble is that 30mph signs aren't required in a built up area so the changes from 30 to 20 and 20 to 30 are misleading people. I've no objection to sensible limits but we have the right to be kept informed.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2015)

Wait til the M1 trial of reducing the speed limit in Notts and sth Yorks proves successful to help lowering co emissions.
Then we can lower all speed limits to 60 on the motorways.


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## the smiling assassin (Oct 22, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Got to agree with the OP on this one. Upcoming plans to turn most of Edinburgh into a 20 mph zone is just the council's latest attack on the motorist, it's becoming impossible to drive around the city nowadays.

There's a stretch of motorway near my mum's that was 70 mph when I lived there and is now down to 50 for no apparent reason. Certainly perfectly safe to drive at 70 so this one puzzles me.
		
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It's going to be great sitting in 2nd or 3rd gear all the time...surely it will increase emissions with everyone over revving their way across town.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

Anybody who commutes on the M3 through Surrey are having their lives made a misery due to roadworks to turn it into a so called "Smart Motorway". These are ongoing until the end of next year. The idea is that at certain times of day motorists may drive on the hard shoulder with a reduced speed limit and lots of very expensive signage. Don't know what you are supposed to do if your car breaks down or has a puncture,  because there is nowhere to pull off!  :mmm:


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## chrisd (Oct 22, 2015)

My gripe is the unfair use of variable sped cameras for entrapment. We have some on the M20 where you are varied between, say, 60 and 50 mph, then a couple of 70 mph and the next one will be 50 for no obvious reason but that the one that has the speed cameras working. Sometimes that'll be the only working, with a restricted speed, in daytime with hardly any traffic on the road!

Cash cows!


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## delc (Oct 22, 2015)

chrisd said:



			My gripe is the unfair use of variable sped cameras for entrapment. We have some on the M20 where you are varied between, say, 60 and 50 mph, then a couple of 70 mph and the next one will be 50 for no obvious reason but that the one that has the speed cameras working. Sometimes that'll be the only working, with a restricted speed, in daytime with hardly any traffic on the road!

Cash cows!
		
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The Government is now allowing Local Councils to keep the money raised by speed cameras, so no wonder there are so many ridiculous speed limits springing up!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 22, 2015)

the smiling assassin said:



			It's going to be great sitting in 2nd or 3rd gear all the time...surely it will increase emissions with everyone over revving their way across town.
		
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Most people will ignore it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2015)

No probs with reducing speed limits if they have been done for specific reason and through a study 

Shouldn't be to gain money 

I'll just leave a bit earlier


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Anybody who commutes on the M3 through Surrey are having their lives made a misery due to roadworks to turn it into a so called "Smart Motorway". These are ongoing until the end of next year. The idea is that at certain times of day motorists may drive on the hard shoulder with a reduced speed limit and lots of very expensive signage. *Don't know what you are supposed to do if your car breaks down or has a puncture,  because there is nowhere to pull off!*  :mmm:
		
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They monitor the lanes constantly so if someone breaks down then they immediately put up the cross signs to stop people driving in the inside lane (they are no longer the hard shoulder). Also there are still pull in points every so often so you can pull in and be off the inside lane. They have had these types of motorway around Birmingham for ages and they do work well.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2015)

chrisd said:



			My gripe is the unfair use of variable sped cameras for entrapment. We have some on the M20 where you are varied between, say, 60 and 50 mph, then a couple of 70 mph and the next one will be 50 for no obvious reason but that the one that has the speed cameras working. Sometimes that'll be the only working, with a restricted speed, in daytime with hardly any traffic on the road!

Cash cows!
		
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The speed limits are controlled using traffic counters in the roads that will automatically slow down the speed if the amount of traffic goes over a threshold.  It is probably the tolerances for the threshold that are causing this issue.  

Studies have proven that slowing people down to say 60 on a very busy motorway does mean that traffic flows better than people going from 80 to 50 back up to 80 all the time, which is what mostly happens if there are no variable speed limits.  But agree that slowing everyone down to 60 or 50 on a relatively clear motorway can be annoying.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 22, 2015)

Could anyone explain what exactly a "smart motorway" is.


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## Paul77 (Oct 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			The speed limits are controlled using traffic counters in the roads that will automatically slow down the speed if the amount of traffic goes over a threshold.  It is probably the tolerances for the threshold that are causing this issue.  

Studies have proven that slowing people down to say 60 on a very busy motorway does mean that traffic flows better than people going from 80 to 50 back up to 80 all the time, which is what mostly happens if there are no variable speed limits.  But agree that slowing everyone down to 60 or 50 on a relatively clear motorway can be annoying.
		
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That's actually a really valid point. I remember a thing Top Gear did with folk driving round a circle at a certain mph. Everyone had to stick to it. A simple task but ended in chaos


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2015)

delc said:



			Anybody who commutes on the M3 through Surrey are having their lives made a misery due to roadworks to turn it into a so called "Smart Motorway". These are ongoing until the end of next year. The idea is that at certain times of day motorists may drive on the hard shoulder with a reduced speed limit and lots of very expensive signage. Don't know what you are supposed to do if your car breaks down or has a puncture,  because t*here is nowhere to pull off*!  :mmm:
		
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I'd suggest you wait until you get home to do that Del otherwise you'll be on here moaning about the lack of available dogging spots in no time at all.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			Could anyone explain what exactly a "smart motorway" is.
		
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Basically a motorway that uses traffic management systems/sensors to automatically close or open up the hard shoulder/inside lane and also to vary the speed limits to improve the flow of traffic.


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## NWJocko (Oct 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Basically a motorway that uses traffic management systems/sensors to automatically close or open up the hard shoulder/inside lane and also to vary the speed limits to improve the flow of traffic.
		
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Ones round Birmingham towards M42 work really well. Those and the average speed checks at roadworks rather than folk slowing down for speed cameras at certain points help the flow of traffic considerably in my experience.


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2015)

It's a rare occasion that I've been along the M42 and it hasn't been flowing well since they had this system.
It's on the M25 too, on the M4/M3 stretch....again, it seems to work although it takes much less to jam things up


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## MegaSteve (Oct 22, 2015)

Spent too much time not going anywhere on the M25 between M3/M40 junctions to be convinced traffic management, using speed limits, offers any kind of a solution...


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 22, 2015)

williamalex1 said:



			The new part of M74 motorway has permanent 50 and 60 limits. So why did they bother building it to motorway specifications.

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Hmmm. I got done on this stretch just after it opened. I was travelling from Lancashire up to the Highlands (a journey I'd done many times before), had the cruise set at 74 mph (I know, I know but hardly the crime of the century) and had had this on since Preston up the M6/M74.....about 2 and a half hours. I found myself on the new stretch, thought I'd gone wrong somewhere as I didn't recognise it and was basically looking at the big overhead signs to try to get my bearings. Cue blue lights, I pulled over as I thought he was on an emergency, was surprised when he stopped me and genuinely had no idea why. It was dry, bright sunshine and all I could say was "you must be joking, it's a motorway" whereupon he smiled, pointed down the road to the bit where it goes to 50 from 60 and said "ya nid tae tek more notice o'the signs sir". Genuine mistake....simply hadn't seen the 60 signs, no real harm done, not a mistake I'd have made again if I'd just had a warning, but the other copper had already got the ticket written before I got in the back of the car. No discretion, no common sense, Gutted,

Since then, I've been a regular user of this stretch and very wary of it. I think the speed limit changes something like 70-60-50-60-70-60-50-70 over a 6 mile stretch.....the last 50 zone is about 400 yards!! Absolute nonsense.


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## c1973 (Oct 22, 2015)

Fyldewhite said:



			Hmmm. I got done on this stretch just after it opened. I was travelling from Lancashire up to the Highlands (a journey I'd done many times before), had the cruise set at 74 mph (I know, I know but hardly the crime of the century) and had had this on since Preston up the M6/M74.....about 2 and a half hours. I found myself on the new stretch, thought I'd gone wrong somewhere as I didn't recognise it and was basically looking at the big overhead signs to try to get my bearings. Cue blue lights, I pulled over as I thought he was on an emergency, was surprised when he stopped me and genuinely had no idea why. It was dry, bright sunshine and all I could say was "you must be joking, it's a motorway" whereupon he smiled, pointed down the road to the bit where it goes to 50 from 60 and said "*ya nid tae tek more notice o'the signs sir*". Genuine mistake....simply hadn't seen the 60 signs, no real harm done, not a mistake I'd have made again if I'd just had a warning, but the other copper had already got the ticket written before I got in the back of the car. No discretion, no common sense, Gutted,

Since then, I've been a regular user of this stretch and very wary of it. I think the speed limit changes something like 70-60-50-60-70-60-50-70 over a 6 mile stretch.....the last 50 zone is about 400 yards!! Absolute nonsense.
		
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Was the cop an extra from Whisky Galore?


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Was the cop an extra from Whisky Galore?  

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Or maybe from  " The Scot Squad"   comedy :rofl:


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 23, 2015)

Good thing in general, especially in towns if it gets more onto public transport.


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## JustOne (Oct 23, 2015)

delc said:



			A stretch of a local urban A road, which had a 40 mph limit for donkeys years, was reduced to 30 mph a couple of years ago. The new 30 sign was very small *and located just after a sharp bend* with a new speed camera located about 50 yards further on. This caught out loads of local people, who hadn't realised that the limit had been changed!  As I said, deliberate entrapment to generate speeding fines!  :angry:
		
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Sounds a good place (accident blackspot?).... it's when the road is STRAIGHT that it gets on my tits.

Our industrial park was a 40 and is now a 30...... the road is 3 lanes wide, the verges are a further 20ft either side, then there's a pavement and any buildings are a further 50ft from the road, NO HOUSES, kids playing or parked cars (double yellow) and the road is straight


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Spent too much time not going anywhere on the M25 between M3/M40 junctions to be convinced traffic management, using speed limits, offers any kind of a solution...
		
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While I sympathise with you, I'm certain that it DOES achieve its goals! But those goals are not what an individual driver considers their goal! I was an M25 user (J11 to J5 and/or J3) when the first 'active traffic management' (ie variable speed limits) were implemented. The morning tailback from Junction 11 instantly moved back to virtually Junction 10 and has not really moved since! However the total volume of vehicles that passed through J11 actually increased - throughput is actually the management goal, not speed!

However, there are some 'interesting' situations and I have a suspicion that the 'management' is not so much 'active' as 'automatic' based on time - something that was to be specifically excluded! There are also some interesting thoughts on what the various actual limits mean. 60 is pretty much pointless - though with potential to gather points! 50 often means there's been an incident/sitution somewhere ahead and, for me, is the only real one worth having! 40 and 30 are pointless/laughable, as you are probably barely moving when these are on - 'wouldn't it be nice' is the normal thought!

And a note on congestion! There will never be any less than the current level! While loads of money can/will be spent on increasing capacity/throughput, this will just mean that those drivers who have been put off using the particular road because of the congestion, will pour onto it, so the congestion will become the same - even though the throughput has increased!

The only way to reduce congestion on the roads permanently, imo, is to make Public Transport more efficient/desirable. And that's a huge ask! Edinburgh actually had/has a 'reasonable' (imo) approach, even if the execution is not always successful! The Council should, however, come clean and admit (even be proud of the fact) that it is actively hostile to cars in the central area - at least in rush hour!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 23, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Spent too much time not going anywhere on the M25 between M3/M40 junctions to be convinced traffic management, using speed limits, offers any kind of a solution...
		
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Fully agree

Went through the same area on wed morning going to Blackmoor - no accidents but the speed was restricted on the signs to 40 mph which ground the cars to halt - then past terminal 5 and the signs disappear and traffic flows at 70 and it's the same volume of traffic 

So it caused a delay of over an hour for no accidents at all


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## delc (Oct 24, 2015)

Earlier today I had the misfortune of having to make a necessary journey that was partly round the circular car park that the M25 has become, even on a Saturday morning. Came to the conclusion that if the signs show 60 mph, you will be in stop-start traffic averaging about 20 mph, if they show 50 you will be crawling along at 5 mph, and 40 means you will be stationary most of the time. Also when you came to the first sign warning of 'Congestion ahead', you were already sitting in a traffic jam!  Probably not really that 'Smart'!


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