# Inflation of Greens Fees for the Top UK Courses



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2021)

These prices have certainly gone up over the years - it’s clear that people pay this ( mainly the US guests )

What’s peoples thoughts


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 34942


These prices have certainly gone up over the years - it’s clear that people pay this ( mainly the US guests )

What’s peoples thoughts
		
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Ban yanks.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 8, 2021)

We play a lot in the USA and most Florida courses have three rack rates.
So OCN is a Q school course in Orlando.
Visitors $120 approx 
Florida resident $80?
Orlando resident $60.

This is the norm in the USA.
So no reason that courses here could not do it.
Their exclusive so don’t want lots of people turning up for cheap rounds but £375 is a bit much.
 I would not pay that for 18 holes anywhere maybe Augusta that’s it.


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## fundy (Feb 8, 2021)

In 1995 we did a trip which included St Andrews Old and New, Muirfield, Carnoustie (both courses), Scotscraig, Monifieth and a couple of others. Green fees came to less than 36 holes would cost nowadays at some of these

Glad I ticked a lot of the bucket courses when I was younger!


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 8, 2021)

Looks about right, rising costs and demand plus inflation (time) leads to big increases.

Take a look at house prices over the same period as a comparison.


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## Orikoru (Feb 8, 2021)

I wouldn't pay the 2000 price for most of these let alone the 2020 price.


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			We play a lot in the USA and most Florida courses have three rack rates.
So OCN is a Q school course in Orlando.
Visitors $120 approx
Florida resident $80?
Orlando resident $60.

This is the norm in the USA.
So no reason that courses here could not do it.
Their exclusive so don’t want lots of people turning up for cheap rounds but £375 is a bit much.
I would not pay that for 18 holes anywhere maybe Augusta that’s it.
		
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As a member of an Angus club I can play Carnoustie at half price, I've done it - so it does apply to a certain extent - does at some other courses in Scotland too - Trump's place has certainly had a cut price deal for Aberdeenshire residents.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 8, 2021)

Must be bored, he posted that last summer!

No thanks but if people want to pay that then good look to them.

Personally I'm happy to play golf at a great course that is superb value and feel no need to travel the country and pay hugely inflated green fees.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			As a member of an Angus club I can play Carnoustie at half price, I've done it - so it does apply to a certain extent - does at some other courses in Scotland too - Trump's place has certainly had a cut price deal for Aberdeenshire residents.
		
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That’s good .
But not heard of anything like that here.
We have a county card but the big open courses are not on it as far as I know.


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## Crow (Feb 8, 2021)

The clubs realise that to get into the GM Top 100 they need to up their game so have been investing heavily on flower beds, car parks, monogrammed table ware, course definition, etc.
These things cost money so prices must reflect that.


The worst thing for me is that high prices are filtering down to the second and third tier courses as, even for the Americans, it's now too dear to play half a dozen top courses in one trip so they look at two or three top courses and the rest second/third tier.
And with the likes of NLU and Eric whatsis'name showcasing those courses on YouTube the prices will continue to climb.


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## evemccc (Feb 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			We play a lot in the USA and most Florida courses have three rack rates.
So OCN is a Q school course in Orlando.
Visitors $120 approx
Florida resident $80?
Orlando resident $60.

This is the norm in the USA.
*So no reason that courses here could not do it.*
Their exclusive so don’t want lots of people turning up for cheap rounds but £375 is a bit much.
I would not pay that for 18 holes anywhere maybe Augusta that’s it.
		
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Exactly. 


Sadly when NLU make their England Tourist Sauce series, they will increase even more. But it has to be said that most of these English courses don't need the American dollar as much as the Scottish / Irish courses do.

As I can't go overseas for 2021 I shall be treating myself to one or two of these...because there'll be even more pricey in a few years time.
And, as long as it's a special treat, I can justify one or two of these...My worry is the knock on effect it has on other courses down the pecking order, as they also have shifted their prices up a lot, but for not nearly a memorable experience


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 8, 2021)

Crow said:



			The clubs realise that to get into the GM Top 100 they need to up their game so have been investing heavily on flower beds, car parks, monogrammed table ware, course definition, etc.
These things cost money so prices must reflect that.


The worst thing for me is that high prices are filtering down to the second and third tier courses as, even for the Americans, it's now too dear to play half a dozen top courses in one trip so they look at two or three top courses and the rest second/third tier.
And with the likes of NLU and Eric whatsis'name showcasing those courses on YouTube the prices will continue to climb.
		
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We must be doing something wrong, Premier League course charging Third Division prices. 

Will tell our Secretary to up his game immediately


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## evemccc (Feb 8, 2021)

Crow said:



			The clubs realise that to get into the GM Top 100 they need to up their game so have been investing heavily on flower beds, car parks, monogrammed table ware, course definition, etc.
These things cost money so prices must reflect that.


The worst thing for me is that high prices are filtering down to the second and third tier courses as, even for the Americans, it's now too dear to play half a dozen top courses in one trip so they look at two or three top courses and the rest second/third tier.
And with the likes of NLU and Eric whatsis'name showcasing those courses on YouTube the prices will continue to climb.
		
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Yep, Go Pro cameras, youtube and drones...


If you have ambition to play these at some point, play them now!


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## theoneandonly (Feb 8, 2021)

I think I've played all of them, mostly via corp contacts etc.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I think I've played all of them, mostly via corp contacts etc.
		
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There's loads on here that have played them all 👍


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## banjofred (Feb 8, 2021)

If somebody is stupid enough to pay ££££ just to hit a golf ball, more power to the golf course.....more money.

There are plenty of golf courses that don't charge ££££......go there. 

People can't brag that they have been to the ££££ golf course.....so they don't go. ergo.....other golf courses are better.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			There's loads on here that have played them all 👍
		
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Well it is a pretty small list and I don't think I paid for any of them


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2021)

banjofred said:



			If somebody is stupid enough to pay ££££ just to hit a golf ball, more power to the golf course.....more money.

There are plenty of golf courses that don't charge ££££......go there.

People can't brag that they have been to the ££££ golf course.....so they don't go. ergo.....other golf courses are better.
		
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? Regardless of the price these courses are up there with the best in the World - there is the rare exception like Silloth for example but you don’t find better courses than the above list for much less than the above fees.


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## IanM (Feb 8, 2021)

Some of those are daft.   I've played all but 3 of them....and mostly last century!!

Folk pay it though.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 8, 2021)

Please see above a list of all the golf courses that charge more than my annual subs for a round of golf. 

£200+ for 18 holes of golf to me is ridiculous. Im sure over my years ill play a few of these courses as part of golf days, weekends away etc where the package is a good deal, but anyone calling and booking a tee at that cost has money spending problems


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

Thanks for sharing. Interesting data and a good debate, although rather a sad one 

It would be really interesting to see a chart illustrating the progressive increases of the green fees over the last 20 years. I don't think it's been a steady rise, I'm guessing more likely an explosion over the last 5 years.

I think the significant weakening of sterling following the outcome of the brexit referendum has played a significant role. £100 green fee was $150, we had a referendum and then £125 was $150. Courses that attract tourists have been able to hike green fees in GBP whilst maintaining a similar price for tourists thinking in USD, EUR or JPY.


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## IanM (Feb 8, 2021)

Could be, and they haven't come down again as exchange rates have adjusted 😁

Speaking a while ago to the manager of one such course, I know they control traffic by adjusting price.    If start getting too many green fees they put the price up.  If that doesn't fix it they keep going.


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## DCB (Feb 8, 2021)

This will make you cry. Saw this on FB the other day, someone reminiscing  of their student days in St Andrews. Its out of a book from the early 1970s.

In 2000 I declined paying £60 to play Royal County Down as they were clearing the course after the Seniors Open. I'll certainly not be playing it at current rates.


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Thanks for sharing. Interesting data and a good debate, although rather a sad one 

It would be really interesting to see a chart illustrating the progressive increases of the green fees over the last 20 years. I don't think it's been a steady rise, I'm guessing more likely an explosion over the last 5 years.

I think the significant weakening of sterling following the outcome of the brexit referendum has played a significant role. £100 green fee was $150, we had a referendum and then £125 was $150. Courses that attract tourists have been able to hike green fees in GBP whilst maintaining a similar price for tourists thinking in USD, EUR or JPY.
		
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US dollar to Pound exchange rate is almost exactly the same as it was five years ago


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			We play a lot in the USA and most Florida courses have three rack rates.
So OCN is a Q school course in Orlando.
Visitors $120 approx
Florida resident $80?
Orlando resident $60.

This is the norm in the USA.
So no reason that courses here could not do it.
Their exclusive so don’t want lots of people turning up for cheap rounds but £375 is a bit much.
I would not pay that for 18 holes anywhere maybe Augusta that’s it.
		
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That is market forces in operation. The OCN isn't well known enough as a golf venue so offers discounts to encourage local residents to play.

I expect that the UK courses in the list above don't need to offer a tiered rack rate because there are enough visitors willing to pay full whack. A visitor is a visitor, Muirfield (for example) probably couldn't care less if that visitor comes from Edinburgh Scotland or Edinburgh Indiana.


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s good .
But not heard of anything like that here.
We have a county card but the big open courses are not on it as far as I know.
		
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Actually i just looked to see if the 50% discount still applied to the Championship course at Carnoustie and it does - in addition an Angus resident wouldn't even need to be a member of one of the courses in the county - though they do need a handicap of 28 or less - Link to Angus resident booking


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			US dollar to Pound exchange rate is almost exactly the same as it was five years ago
		
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I don't know where you get your data from, but 5 years ago the rate was 1.45 and now it's 1.37 which is nowhere near the same.

However, I should have known the pedants would come out.

I used 5 years as an indication, but I was specifically referring to the referendum and the trend in rates. Over the historical period being discussed (2000-2020) GBPUSD tended to be above 1.50 prior to 2016, and in fact for several periods you could have bought $2 with £1.

Significantly, following the June 2016 referendum, GBP weakened significantly against USD (and other currencies). For 4 years GBPUSD has mainly traded in the 1.20 - 1.30 range. This represents a large percentage change for us in the UK compared to the 10 previous years.

The green fees in the data provided are for 2020. These would have been set pre-COVID in anticipation of another busy summer tourist season, so the evolution of the GBPUSD FX rate during the pandemic is 2020 is entirely irrelevant. Of course, what we have seen is that the global slump in the oil price, driven by huge reduction in demand, has caused dollar weakness. Since the world went into lockdown in March 2020, GBP has recovered against USD, meaning that we now see a rate of 1.37, although this is perhaps irrelevant as we are unlikely to see many foreign visitors to the UK this year. 

Is that ok?


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## SatchFan (Feb 8, 2021)

If people are willing and daft enough to actually pay those prices I can't see a problem.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I don't know where you get your data from, but 5 years ago the rate was 1.45 and now it's 1.37 which is nowhere near the same.

However, I should have known the pedants would come out.

I used 5 years as an indication, but I was specifically referring to the referendum and the trend in rates. Over the historical period being discussed (2000-2020) GBPUSD tended to be above 1.50 prior to 2016, and in fact for several periods you could have bought $2 with £1.

Significantly, following the June 2016 referendum, GBP weakened significantly against USD (and other currencies). For 4 years GBPUSD has mainly traded in the 1.20 - 1.30 range. This represents a large percentage change for us in the UK compared to the 10 previous years.

The green fees in the data provided are for 2020. These would have been set pre-COVID in anticipation of another busy summer tourist season, so the evolution of the GBPUSD FX rate during the pandemic is 2020 is entirely irrelevant. Of course, what we have seen is that the global slump in the oil price, driven by huge reduction in demand, has caused dollar weakness. Since the world went into lockdown in March 2020, GBP has recovered against USD, meaning that we now see a rate of 1.37, although this is perhaps irrelevant as we are unlikely to see many foreign visitors to the UK this year.

Is that ok?
		
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 someone needs to tell @sunshine that @Liverpoolphil has hacked his account 🤣


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 8, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Must be bored, he posted that last summer!

No thanks but if people want to pay that then good look to them.

Personally I'm happy to play golf at a great course that is superb value and feel no need to travel the country and pay hugely inflated green fees.
		
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Your club is in the same bracket as mine. Both out of the way so green fees are still reasonable. 

Now if both were in closer proximity to a motorway or other top 100 courses both would be a lot more and membership costs would be double.


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## Robster59 (Feb 8, 2021)

Supply and Demand.  These "Premium" courses will keep upping their fees while people continue to keep paying them. 
As other people have said though is that the knock-on effect is the lesser courses in the area also increasing their rates because of the prices of the big courses around them.  
TBH, for the money these people charge for a round, I could do a lot of other things.  
Four or fives rounds over the courses in the list would pay for a years membership at my club.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 8, 2021)

Maybe they're trying to keep the riff-raff out.. people who can't afford long socks or tailored shorts


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## Imurg (Feb 8, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			If people are willing and daft enough to actually pay those prices I can't see a problem.
		
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The trouble is that it can put those courses out of reach of many people who can't justify £55an hour(average) plus caddy, food and drink and travel to play 18 holes.
Add those factors and, well, I can't even guess how much a trip to play Turnberry at over 20 quid a hole +extras.
If you've got the money then,  yeah, no worries. It's yours to spend as you wish
It's too much for many, even some who can afford it will look at those numbers and think...Nah....
I would find it hard to justify paying full whack for any of those courses no matter how good they are


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## jim8flog (Feb 8, 2021)

What would be interesting is to compare membership fees over the same 20 period. I bet it would be something in the region of twice the amount.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 8, 2021)

Few on there I would still like to play and if I have to pay full whack so be it, although I hope that Roddy Tours pay them a visit. 

That said I'm now getting to a stage of my golfing life where I'm as happy to play some of the supposed "lesser lights" as there is no way you are playing the full championship course, and no way my game is up to the full championship course even if I were allowed.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The trouble is that it can put those courses out of reach of many people who can't justify £55an hour(average) plus caddy, food and drink and travel to play 18 holes.
Add those factors and, well, I can't even guess how much a trip to play Turnberry at over 20 quid a hole +extras.
If you've got the money then,  yeah, no worries. It's yours to spend as you wish
It's too much for many, even some who can afford it will look at those numbers and think...Nah....
I would find it hard to justify paying full whack for any of those courses no matter how good they are
		
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Thing is it's not 'us' that's the target audience. It's yanks and Japanese and there is an endless supply of them willing to pay over inflated prices.


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## SatchFan (Feb 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The trouble is that it can put those courses out of reach of many people who can't justify £55an hour(average) plus caddy, food and drink and travel to play 18 holes.
Add those factors and, well, I can't even guess how much a trip to play Turnberry at over 20 quid a hole +extras.
If you've got the money then,  yeah, no worries. It's yours to spend as you wish
It's too much for many, even some who can afford it will look at those numbers and think...Nah....
I would find it hard to justify paying full whack for any of those courses no matter how good they are
		
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Your last sentence sums up my feelings exactly.


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## Imurg (Feb 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Thing is it's not 'us' that's the target audience. It's yanks and Japanese and there is an endless supply of them willing to pay over inflated prices.
		
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Absolutely but it still prices a lot of us out of the market...


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Thanks for sharing. Interesting data and a good debate, although rather a sad one 

It would be really interesting to see a chart illustrating the progressive increases of the green fees over the last 20 years. I don't think it's been a steady rise, I'm guessing more likely an explosion over the last 5 years.

I think the significant weakening of sterling following the outcome of the brexit referendum has played a significant role. £100 green fee was $150, we had a referendum and then £125 was $150. Courses that attract tourists have been able to hike green fees in GBP whilst maintaining a similar price for tourists thinking in USD, EUR or JPY.
		
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You asked about historical fees

A round on the Championship in 2015 (I know because I played it) at Carnoustie was £170 in 2021 it's £270.

I'm sure you can work out whether that's 'a similar price' for an American visitor this year.


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## Zig (Feb 8, 2021)

I posted about this around xmas time.... last year (between lockdowns) there were lots of good offers to play several Scottish courses to Scottish residents, but nothing for us those of us south of the border, and the 'big' courses here don't seem to offer anything like to England Golf members. Shame, cos the GUI/IGU certainly seem to look after their own too. 

Like many, I think the full price fees are excessive (even though I understand it's like a footy fan getting to play at Wembley/Anfield etc). I've played a handful, usually taking advantage of shoulder season - when Easter falls at the end of March, RCD and Portrush are exceptional value, and the St Andrews winter offer is fab too (provided you get the weather and you don't mind hitting off a mat). 

I keep hoping there'll be some summer offers (and not just for Irish/Scottish residents) this year as those on the list which rely on overseas visitors will surely see a big fall in visitor numbers... wishful thinking maybe!


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## KenL (Feb 8, 2021)

I know some do but I really wish courses would do more for local residents as the prices are clearly designed for foreign visitors with more money than most of us.
Take a look at Kingsbarns website. It is clearly designed for Americans. They even provide a freephone number you can call from USA.

I see Dumbarnie are offering a Scottish resident rate of £125 again this year, just under half the full cost.

Turnberry is up to £395 for a game. 😂🤣😂


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## HarrogateHacker (Feb 8, 2021)

Think some of the prices are a scandal, I get it’s supply demand and people are willing to pay it but 200+ or 300+ for a round is bonkers.  Despite this if someone phoned me and offered me a round at any of these courses for 200+ I’d pay it so I’m part of the problem I suppose


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 8, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Your club is in the same bracket as mine. Both out of the way so green fees are still reasonable.

Now if both were in closer proximity to a motorway or other top 100 courses both would be a lot more and membership costs would be double.
		
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So true and thankful to be so awkward to get to.


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## IanM (Feb 8, 2021)

Stuff em.  Silloth here I come! 

Ps.  Please don't tell em about Ashburnham and Pennard!


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## evemccc (Feb 8, 2021)

Unfortunately it is an example of wider trends in the way our society and the world is going.
I don’t like it in golf or elsewhere.
But..I know it is going to get worse, or more expensive, and so I choose to play those bucket-list courses that I truly want to play, as soon as I can. Doing so in the knowledge that ‘less is more’ (as I can’t afford or won’t choose) to make a habit out of it...so it is a one-off, and I think that will help me to truly enjoy the moment

I’ve spent plenty of money on nights out and on years of drinking. I look back now (in lockdown) with happy memories of those years of countless hours in clubs and in pubs
If /when we get back to normal I will still enjoy going to the pub but I am sort of horrified when I think about how much money I’ve spent on alcohol and nights out over the years. But I am resolved that I won’t want to do that as a habit, more a thing to savour. How I choose to spend my disposable income obvs changes with time but I feel like this year of indulging in two or three fancy courses will be a good thing for the ‘experience’ of it, esp to keep my spirits up whilst I can’t travel abroad. In a year or so I’ll be perhaps more keen to join a ‘better’ club with my golf money.
There is, for me, a sort of pressure to do the ones I want relatively quickly, as I can’t see these prices coming down at all in the future - quite the opposite


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## DRW (Feb 8, 2021)

Not sure I will go back playing these kind of courses on anything like a regular basis after lockdowns, in many cases they are not worth it at all tbh. History doesn't quite tick my boxes, the courses arent really worth the money.

Will stick to playing at club memberships and cheaper memorable courses, they actually leave better memories for the buck.

Would like to see a comparison of membership costs over a similar period, to see if increases have been similar


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## banjofred (Feb 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			? Regardless of the price these courses are up there with the best in the World - there is the rare exception like Silloth for example but you don’t find better courses than the above list for much less than the above fees.
		
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I get it.....I don't like it, but I get it. To me it still comes back to individual choice. Would I spend .50p for a pint of beer...yes. £2.....yes. £6...no. Unless it is a special occasion, I won't go over £40. I know.....that doesn't go very far. The ONLY reason I play regularly is because if you are a member you might pay the £1000 a year, but if you play 100+ times the price is "reasonable"....to me. I just like to play golf, I don't need the best golf course to do that.


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

Best example I've seen of treating locals better than tourists is St Andrews - the Links website hasn't published prices for 21-22 yet but they quote full price for the Old Course for 2020 at £195 and a resident of St Andrews could have played it for £49.


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## Zig (Feb 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Best example I've seen of treating locals better than tourists is St Andrews - the Links website hasn't published prices for 21-22 yet but they quote full price for the Old Course for 2020 at £195 and a resident of St Andrews could have played it for £49.
		
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That's one I'm looking at for the summer hopefully... my two visits have both been in Feb and want to play it without multiple layers! However, they've just advertised a 36 hole deal, Old and New, and it's £450!!! (OK, there's one meal chucked in with a few goodies). Crazy price.


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## Golfnut1957 (Feb 8, 2021)

People are saying it will filter down to run of the mill clubs, it already has.

We have had a three day golfing trip for more years than I care to remember. My mate and I do the organising in alternate years, and we'll travel as far north as Fife, as far south as Lincoln and across to the west coast. We are not interested in premier courses, we look for gems at rock bottom prices. As an example last year it was Seacroft, Market Rasen and Kirkbymoorside, great golf and the fees for 4 rounds were around £100, total.

Fast forward 4 months, and I am looking into Septembers trip and I can't believe the prices I'm seeing, they seem to have shot up. I'm sure by the time I get around to booking them I'll find some good deals. but.

On the back of my research for the trip I decided to look into the fees for clubs around here. I'm truly shocked,  they appear to have gone up around 33% to 50% on last year. Is it a covid, we have full membership and don't need you thing? I don't know but here's hoping the Opens make a return this year.


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

Golfnut1957 said:



			People are saying it will filter down to run of the mill clubs, it already has.

We have had a three day golfing trip for more years than I care to remember. My mate and I do the organising in alternate years, and we'll travel as far north as Fife, as far south as Lincoln and across to the west coast. We are not interested in premier courses, we look for gems at rock bottom prices. As an example last year it was Seacroft, Market Rasen and Kirkbymoorside, great golf and the fees for 4 rounds were around £100, total.

Fast forward 4 months, and I am looking into Septembers trip and I can't believe the prices I'm seeing, they seem to have shot up. I'm sure by the time I get around to booking them I'll find some good deals. but.

On the back of my research for the trip I decided to look into the fees for clubs around here. I'm truly shocked,  they appear to have gone up around 33% to 50% on last year. Is it a covid, we have full membership and don't need you thing? I don't know but here's hoping the Opens make a return this year.
		
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I suspect this is probably more to do with COVID. They expect the course to be busy with members so will be limiting visitors this year.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			That is market forces in operation. The OCN isn't well known enough as a golf venue so offers discounts to encourage local residents to play.

I expect that the UK courses in the list above don't need to offer a tiered rack rate because there are enough visitors willing to pay full whack. A visitor is a visitor, Muirfield (for example) probably couldn't care less if that visitor comes from Edinburgh Scotland or Edinburgh Indiana.
		
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Not well known enough ??? Really 
It’s the best complex in Orlando area.
USPGA Q school , and where the pros go to see Leadbetter for their lessons.
It’s the best practice facility I have ever seen.
Two magnificent courses.

All Florida courses use residents rates even the really cheap ones.


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			You asked about historical fees

A round on the Championship in 2015 (I know because I played it) at Carnoustie was £170 in 2021 it's £270.

I'm sure you can work out whether that's 'a similar price' for an American visitor this year.
		
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Thanks.

So in 15 years the price went up a hundred quid from £70 to £170. Then it only took another 6 years to go up another 100 quid from £170 to £270


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## davidy233 (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Thanks.

So in 15 years the price went up a hundred quid from £70 to £170. Then it only took another 6 years to go up another 100 quid from £170 to £270
		
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Don't disagree with that - I can give you the ten years or so before that - Played it in 1992 too - it was £30 then so it just over doubled in that eight years.


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## Slime (Feb 8, 2021)

Of the nineteen courses listed, I've played them all with the exception of eighteen!
At those prices, I guess that'll be that.


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## sunshine (Feb 8, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not well known enough ??? Really
It’s the best complex in Orlando area.
USPGA Q school , and where the pros go to see Leadbetter for their lessons.
It’s the best practice facility I have ever seen.
Two magnificent courses.

All Florida courses use residents rates even the really cheap ones.
		
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I'd never heard of it (admittedly I know very little about golf in the US) so I had to look it up: the two courses are ranked 64th and 89th in Florida. Hardly world beaters. I'll take your word that the courses are great, but people aren't going to be rushing from all over the US to play here, hosting Q school is no big deal.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 8, 2021)

sunshine said:



			I'd never heard of it (admittedly I know very little about golf in the US) so I had to look it up: the two courses are ranked 64th and 89th in Florida. Hardly world beaters. I'll take your word that the courses are great, but people aren't going to be rushing from all over the US to play here, hosting Q school is no big deal.
		
Click to expand...

There are so many good golf courses there those numbers mean nothing really.
Take it from me if you ever go there don’t miss a chance to play there it’s stunning.


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## Rangers76 (Feb 8, 2021)

After 2008 financial crash golf clubs were crying out for members and green fees in my area,South of London into Kent/Surrey. Prices crept up quite slowly really but the last few years have skyrocketed. I'm proud to say in 30 years of playing I've never paid the full rack rate anywhere, always use County card or get someone to sign us in guest fee.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 8, 2021)

I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will. 

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount


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## evemccc (Feb 8, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will.

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount
		
Click to expand...

Very sensible, and I agree in the main.


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## Sats (Feb 8, 2021)

Wow, that's extreme. For £395 I could book a weekend at the belfry eat dinner, have drinks and still play on a lovely course. I'd play on those courses if that money was disposable to me, but honestly I could go the rest of my life not playing those courses and not feel like I've missed out.


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## Slab (Feb 9, 2021)

Some of those green fees are eye watering (although I do wonder how many (as a proportion) actually pay that top rate)

Odd though that when the talk was about bifurcation the opposition was ‘we can play the same course with the same equipment etc’…. But this suggests that all too often it would seem that (financially at least) these prices mean we really can’t play the same course nor do we use the same 10k bag of clubs


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## evemccc (Feb 9, 2021)

Slab said:



			Some of those green fees are eye watering (although I do wonder how many (as a proportion) actually pay that top rate)

Odd though that when the talk was about bifurcation the opposition was ‘we can play the same course with the same equipment etc’…. But this suggests that all too often it would seem that (financially at least) these prices mean we really can’t play the same course nor do we use the same 10k bag of clubs
		
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Exactly

Not that we can play Augusta, but for those members who can, the course is nothing like the course at the Sunday Masters


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

I look at these visitors green fees and i shrug with some resigned sadness that I doubt I’ll ever play most of them...and some regret that I didn’t try and play more of them when they were less expensive - though still relatively unaffordable to me when they were.  Why sad...well in many ways I love the history and traditions of the game we play almost as much as actually playing the game.

And so for instance when I visited and played Westward Ho many years ago (30 to be precise - it was my stag weekend and we also played Saunton East) it was as much the J H Taylor links and the clubs history that made the visit for me - to be in some small way close to a very important part of the history of the game as I sat in the clubhouse with its historical display and walking in the footsteps of Taylor and the other greats of his time who walked the same fairways as I.

And that is the deep attraction that the great Open and other great old courses hold for me - and so other side of coin is that I’m not really that bothered about playing any modern/new ‘great’ course...they tend just to be great golf courses.  But at today’s prices I really struggle, in fact I can’t justify paying what’s being asked even if i could ‘afford’ it.  I know it’s market forces etc - but that doesn’t take from my ‘sadness‘ or regret that it has come to pass. And so for the most part I have simply closed down any thinking I might have about visiting and playing these historic ‘greats’...the most part - don‘t let my wife know 🤫


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## Golfnut1957 (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



*I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".*

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will.

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount
		
Click to expand...

You should.

It is my belief that England Golf is run by a bunch of men all wearing the same colour tie who have an interest in elite amateurs and not much else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

I’ll add...that my ‘sadness‘ is tempered by the fact that I am fortunate enough to be a member of a great club that celebrates its 125th birthday this year - a club with very close ties to Bobby Locke and through him with a young Gary Player, and a course that such as Braid and Vardon played back in the day. We have just recently put up a great set of pages on our website on the clubs history with lots of old photos and documents...love it 👍🥰


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## evemccc (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I look at these visitors green fees and i shrug with some resigned sadness that I doubt I’ll ever play most of them...and some regret that I didn’t try and play more of them when they were less expensive - though still relatively unaffordable to me when they were.  Why sad...well in many ways I love the history and traditions of the game we play almost as much as actually playing the game.

And so for instance when I visited and played Westward Ho many years ago (30 to be precise - it was my stag weekend and we also played Staunton East) it was as much the J H Taylor links and the clubs history that made the visit for me - to be in some small way close to a very important part of the history of the game as I sat in the clubhouse with its historical display and walking in the footsteps of Taylor and the other greats of his time who walked the same fairways as I.

And that is the deep attraction that the great Open and other great old courses hold for me - and so other side of coin is that I’m not really that bothered about playing any modern/new ‘great’ course...they tend just to be great golf courses.  But at today’s prices I really struggle, in fact I can’t justify paying what’s being asked even if i could ‘afford’ it.  I know it’s market forces etc - but that doesn’t take from my ‘sadness‘ or regret that it has come to pass. And so for the most part I have simply closed down any thinking I might have about visiting and playing these historic ‘greats’...the most part - don‘t let my wife know 🤫
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic post. This is mostly how I feel...

I'd clearly bite someone's hand off if they paid for me to play at Castle Stuart or Kingsbarns, and by all accounts the work that Ebert has done at Turnberry is a definite upgrade (as with their upgrade work at many courses) but I would never pay to play those places - the expense, yes. But also I'm a fan of history, and its the history of these famous old courses and clubhouses that get to me. 

I wanted to play Hoylake this winter....obvs couldn't because of Covid...I look and see their Winter fee has gone up by not far off 20% for next year...I tell myself 'If you don't do it now'..etc etc


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will.

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount
		
Click to expand...

England Golf are the governing body of the game in England for amateur golf.

They are not business owners so they cant force any club into offering a green fee discount, that is what the county card is for as loyalty for golf club members in England. 

Then its down to each individual club to accept the county card.

As you will know a lot of the top top courses dont accept the county cards and I have no idea why but its there decision as a business and unfortunately its the clubs own policy on setting green fee prices and any loyalty offering.

There are a few of the top clubs in Scotland that offer a local green fee but I dont believe it is that many but I stand to be corrected, it showed last year when some brought down green fees considerably to show how much they are truly overcharging the american market. There was some serious deals to be had last year and I imagine this year will be the same.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 9, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Best example I've seen of treating locals better than tourists is St Andrews - the Links website hasn't published prices for 21-22 yet but they quote full price for the Old Course for 2020 at £195 and a resident of St Andrews could have played it for £49.
		
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If you a resident in St Andrews why wouldnt you a members on the links


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will.

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount
		
Click to expand...

I'd really like for it to be done in this way, but I don't think that's in line with reality unfortunately.   A lot based on what I'm reading here, as although most seem to agree that the prices are way over the top, there's a lot of people who are willing to "treat themselves" every once in a while to play these courses that come in at £200+.

A quick check tells me there's about 1 million golfers in the UK who plays once or twice a month. If we just take 5%, which I don't think is an exaggerated number (although don't have anything to back this up with really other than speaking to everyone I know who plays golf), that's 50,000 "treat myself rounds" from the UK only. Split that out on say the top 50 courses and that's 1,000 rounds a year for each course, bringing in some fairly serious dosh. Add overseas golfers and corporate bookings on top of that and I don't see any chance of prices go down or even to slow down.


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## DRW (Feb 9, 2021)

Know this will be slightly against the flow, but how many of you run a business that sells to locals, national and international ?

If you do, do you discount(massively) different for those markets or would you?

I know I wouldn't and don't to be honest, the price is my price, you could be english, Belgium, welsh, from herts or london or overseas doesn't make a difference to my price ......

Anyone can be a busy fool in business, as the saying goes. Birkdale could price it at £50 a round and have every tee time filled, but why do that......

That said the prices are stupid and way to high and most of the time isnt worth it


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## davidy233 (Feb 9, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			If you a resident in St Andrews why wouldnt you a members on the links 

Click to expand...

Logically I'd say that is the sensible thing to do but the £49 deal is for any resident

I was mistaken earlier when I said that a handicap is required - that's only for the Old Course, they have reduced resident prices for all the courses.


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## jim8flog (Feb 9, 2021)

For me it is simple - it is just a a game of golf.

I would not even pay the green fees for a visitor at my own club just for a game of golf.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I did think of posting a thread called "who does England golf represent".

I think they say the English clubs and their members, but I think they are failing the latter massively on this subject.

For people who say its market forces. Well do we just accept it if it eventually means that "our" courses are full of Americans, Asians and Europeans due to exchange rates and GDP? Courses that were built for and supported by us, and supported by our money for the first century of their existence most of the time. Quite a lot of those courses are also famous due to the Open, or British open, if you will.

The Scottish tend to offer county rates and Scottish resident rates, so why not do the same down here, and why arent England Golf pushing for this? Muirfield caved in due to pressure to admit female members, so why can't the same type of pressure be applied?

Even if they have the less popular times available for the discounted rates like late afternoon or during the week, even if your restricted to only getting that rate once every 2-3 years or something, so that the members dont get uppity, if the course is booked solidly due to reduced rates. IMO there should be rates throughout the UK and Ireland, with something along these lines, as follows:-

Same county, or neighbouring countie(s) - 50% discount

National rate (available to people or club members who are resident in that country) - 40% discount

GB & I rate - 30% discount
		
Click to expand...

Alas the SG hasn't done much for local golfers either, apart from the odd club, most of the deals are not there any longer, i think the best of the unions is the Irish one they do appear to offer a reduced reasonable rate to locals.
Most yanks don't have a clue what they are paying, for many of the clubs that do get overseas visitors you can get away with charging what you like, you get less visitors which members like and still get the same or more money coming in.

if i wanted to play Dornoch for instance i'd still have to pay £210, there is no local offer, they couldn't care less if locals can't play, why would they. they can, our could get close to 20,000 overseas visitors. my clubs the same, we don't get anywhere close the the same numbers they do and membership isn't subsidized as much.. already prompted for a big rise next year.


as you say Members should be putting pressure on the unions to do something about this, it is one of the great things about the sport is you can get to play the same courses as some of the greats of the game, not just the wealthy


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			For me it is simple - it is just a a game of golf.

I would not even pay the green fees for a visitor at my own club just for a game of golf.
		
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How much do they charge?


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## davidy233 (Feb 9, 2021)

Thing is if you are traveling and staying overnight you are a tourist - whether American, Japanese, Chinese, English, Scottish - why would a club/course discriminate amongst them.

Discounts for locals - yep - for tourists - nope


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Alas the SG hasn't done much for local golfers either, apart from the odd club, most of the deals are not there any longer, i think the best of the unions is the Irish one they do appear to offer a reduced reasonable rate to locals.
Most yanks don't have a clue what they are paying, for many of the clubs that do get overseas visitors you can get away with charging what you like, you get less visitors which members like and still get the same or more money coming in.

if i wanted to play Dornoch for instance i'd still have to pay £210, there is no local offer, they couldn't care less if locals can't play, why would they. they can, our could get close to 20,000 overseas visitors. my clubs the same, we don't get anywhere close the the same numbers they do and membership isn't subsidized as much.. already promed for a big rise next year.


as you say Members should be putting pressure on the unions to do something about this, it is one of the great things about the sport is you can get to play the same courses as some of the greats of the game, not just the wealthy
		
Click to expand...

If Dornoch couldn't care less how are they going to make up this shortfall of 20000 paying £210 a pop. Not going to many travelling to the UK this year either I doubt.


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## banjofred (Feb 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			For me it is simple - it is just a a game of golf.

I would not even pay the green fees for a visitor at my own club just for a game of golf.
		
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That's what I've said before. If it wasn't for membership, there is no way I'd be playing 100+ rounds of golf a year, and likely wouldn't be playing golf at all.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2021)

saving_par said:



			If Dornoch couldn't care less how are they going to make up this shortfall of 20000 paying £210 a pop. Not going to many travelling to the UK this year either I doubt.
		
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No idea mate, they do have the luxury of £5 million in the bank, but there is talk of them doubling the membership fee, but no idea if thats true or not. most visitors would be subject to a discount as they tend to go through tours so the club don't get the full fee. They will still a get a few visitors, all the memebrs of Donald Ross courses in the States love to come over and play where he grew up.


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## Rlburnside (Feb 9, 2021)

I've only played 2 courses that have been expensive, Trump International which was a present from my kids and Royal Dornoch which was part of a tour I took of the highlands, I would pay for a top course again but it would have to be a special occasion..

I think there should be some kind of reduced rate so that the average golfer could experience these courses, but it's a business so can understand why this doesn't happen. 

I was paired up with 3 Americans when I played Dornoch and it was different to anyone I've ever played with before, they seemed to be there for the experience rather than the enjoyment of getting the best score they could ( mulligans etc) something quite strange alien to me.


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## Crow (Feb 9, 2021)

I think that as soon as travel restrictions lift the top clubs will be swamped with visitors wanting to play, especially Americans and Japanese who have been starved of the chance to play here, 2021 could end on a high for these clubs.

Another factor in driving prices up is the fact that a good many of us are much more able/willing to travel around the country now and have more free time and spare cash to do so, hence there are far more golfers looking to play the top courses, from the UK and overseas.  Covid has skewed that situation somewhat but I don't think it will take long for things to return to how they were.

Like others, I'm pretty resigned to the fact that I might not play any of those courses in the future but there are still plenty of courses that provide a great experience from a golfing standpoint.  In many ways I prefer the smaller courses where the money coming in is spent on the course and not on a big fancy clubhouse, changing rooms, visitor's pack destined for landfill, car park, etc. I had a great time playing the courses on Anglesey, some were very rough round the edges and not very long, but length isn't an issue when you're playing vintage clubs.


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## Zig (Feb 9, 2021)

We could all share any info of special offers/ways to play these for cheaper than the advertised rate. The displayed top-end prices have put me off trying to play both Royal St Georges and Royal Birkdale for the last couple of years. However, I've taken advantage of the following last year and/or the year before (for slightly cheaper than the rates below, which are 2021 charges) and they've been brilliant experiences. The prices below are probably the max I'd pay to pay anywhere, and certainly only on special occasions/one offs! For both RCD and RP I've played one or the other (rather than both on the same trip) and then paired it up with somewhere much cheaper for our weekend 36 break.

April Royal County Down is £160, Royal Portush £150. Both welcomed visitors during the Easter bank holiday weekends. Both are cheaper again if you can play at the end of March.
April again, but the Royal Dornoch stay and play offers are fab. £370 gets a round at Royal Dornoch and two rounds at Castle Stuart, with on site accommodation.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2021)

Zig said:



			We could all share any info of special offers/ways to play these for cheaper than the advertised rate. The displayed top-end prices have put me off trying to play both Royal St Georges and Royal Birkdale for the last couple of years. However, I've taken advantage of the following last year and/or the year before (for slightly cheaper than the rates below, which are 2021 charges) and they've been brilliant experiences. The prices below are probably the max I'd pay to pay anywhere, and certainly only on special occasions/one offs! For both RCD and RP I've played one or the other (rather than both on the same trip) and then paired it up with somewhere much cheaper for our weekend 36 break.

April Royal County Down is £160, Royal Portush £150. Both welcomed visitors during the Easter bank holiday weekends. Both are cheaper again if you can play at the end of March.
April again, but the Royal Dornoch stay and play offers are fab. £370 gets a round at Royal Dornoch and two rounds at Castle Stuart, with on site accommodation.
		
Click to expand...

a lot of places do shoulder season rates, i'd say most would.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I definitely have no interest in paying those prices, I'm not really bothered about the "famous names" in golf courses if that's what they're getting away with charging.

There are enough cracking courses in the UK at sensible prices.
		
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what would you think was a sensible price?


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2021)

Exactly.  There are folk on here who think Birkdale should charge £15 and folk who'll pay whatever is asked.

Clubs charge what they do for all sorts or reasons.  But, that's their perogative.

Visiting them isn't compulsory.


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## evemccc (Feb 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Know this will be slightly against the flow, but how many of you run a business that sells to locals, national and international ?

If you do, do you discount(massively) different for those markets or would you?

I know I wouldn't and don't to be honest, the price is my price, you could be english, Belgium, welsh, from herts or london or overseas doesn't make a difference to my price ......

Anyone can be a busy fool in business, as the saying goes. Birkdale could price it at £50 a round and have every tee time filled, but why do that......

That said the prices are stupid and way to high and most of the time isnt worth it

Click to expand...

There are plenty of places in this world inside and outside of golf, AFAIK all outside of England though, that do precisely have a price for citizens of the home country and another for those from elsewhere. 
As with regards golf, another poster cited Florida as an example of that and another mentioned Scotland


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## jim8flog (Feb 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			How much do they charge?
		
Click to expand...

 Our visitor green fee is £40 ( 4 ball £120) for the 18 hole course and £20 for the 9 hole.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 9, 2021)

IanM said:



			Exactly.  There are folk on here who think Birkdale should charge £15 and folk who'll pay whatever is asked.

Clubs charge what they do for all sorts or reasons.  But, that's their perogative.

Visiting them isn't compulsory.
		
Click to expand...

I think most of us whining about the prices are doing so from a emotive perspective, and we're all very aware of it.

Birkdale at £15 would be very silly as well, so can't we just meet in the "middle" and say £40 for a twilight tee-time?


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## Sports_Fanatic (Feb 9, 2021)

I've been lucky that I've played courses in shoulder season or even gambled with Feb and always got good weather. Also played Hoylake when they did county cards Mon and Fri in Winter/Autumn for £50 so you can get details.

I just treat them as a special occasion every couple of years.


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## banjofred (Feb 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Our visitor green fee is £40 ( 4 ball £120) for the 18 hole course and £20 for the 9 hole.
		
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Ours is listed as £34-40 during the summer.....perfectly decent golf course.


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## garyinderry (Feb 9, 2021)

Ballyliffin allow all members of derry golf clubs to play for 50euro.  It used to be 30 which was a steal.


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## DRW (Feb 9, 2021)

evemccc said:



			There are plenty of places in this world inside and outside of golf, AFAIK all outside of England though, that do precisely have a price for citizens of the home country and another for those from elsewhere.
As with regards golf, another poster cited Florida as an example of that and another mentioned Scotland
		
Click to expand...

Of course some will. Just like courses take the county card or offer twilight or shoulder rate or open prices. Many reasons why they would.

My question was more, do you do it in your business and why should somewhere like Birkdale offer 'cheaper green fees to locals'. What gives you the right as a local to have it cheaper ? Its an intriguing question, and a couple of reasons I can see(one being they maybe your future members at some of these clubs but tbh probably not true for Birkdale).

That kind of discounted pricing is fine if you wish it to be rammed, open your market to loads of people, course ripped up and packed all the time. Assuming the market will take it, out of choice,  I would choose to charge double the price and only have half the visitors, especially if I was running or was a member of a golf club like Birkdale.

Seen on here when people say somewhere like Dumbarnie Links offer Scots residents £125 vs £258 standard visitor rate, think that is a 'steal' as such. Is it that cheap tho or only relatively cheap, value is in the eyes of the holder.


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## AliMc (Feb 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			what would you think was a sensible price?
		
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Courses at around £50 or £60 max for me, loads of good quality courses up to that, £260 or so for any course is just ridiculous imo


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## moogie (Feb 9, 2021)

Looking at that list
I'd happily pay the fee for St Andrews 
For its history and place in the game itself


I wouldn't pay the stated green fee on any of the rest
Defenitely aimed at the overseas tourist with that pricing


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## Slime (Feb 9, 2021)

Imagine paying £200+ for a round of golf and playing crap.
I'd hate that.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 9, 2021)

I've just had to check but the average price of a pint of lager in the ONS RPI figures was £1.97 in the year 2000 and is now £3.79. That's about a 95% increase.

Against the table in the OP I'd call Troon pretty much the same value now. Some of the others are clearly taking the biscuit though. They probably charge at least double £3.79 a pint in the bar as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

moogie said:



			Looking at that list
I'd happily pay the fee for St Andrews
For its history and place in the game itself


I wouldn't pay the stated green fee on any of the rest
Defenitely aimed at the overseas tourist with that pricing
		
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The OC is one of the few major courses I've played - and I got on for nothing as I played in a four ball with a member of the R&A and two members of the New Club.  That's the sort of green fee I really like


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## stefanovic (Feb 9, 2021)

Golf doesn't seem to follow supply and demand economics.
Some businesses will simply charge you what they think you can afford. 
Some courses are still more exclusive than inclusive. Keeps away the little people.
I'm also glad that I played the likes of The Belfy, Carnoustie, 4 of the courses at St Andrews, Nairn, Royal Dornoch and so on when I was younger.
I remember when it was £9 to play the OC. £5 to play the Brabazon. 
I don't think earnings have increased anywhere near as much for the average person as many green fees.


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## patricks148 (Feb 9, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Courses at around £50 or £60 max for me, loads of good quality courses up to that, £260 or so for any course is just ridiculous imo
		
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how much is peak rate at yours now?

around here even the clubs that were less that £40 a few years ago are now £70 peak rate.


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## AliMc (Feb 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			how much is peak rate at yours now?

around here even the clubs that were less that £40 a few years ago are now £70 peak rate.
		
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Last year it was £90 a round Mon - Thu, £105 Fri and £120 Sat/Sun i think


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 9, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Last year it was £90 a round Mon - Thu, £105 Fri and £120 Sat/Sun i think
		
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Is that Dunbar?

They have really pushed the prices up over the last few years, very nice course though.


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Our visitor green fee is £40 ( 4 ball £120) for the 18 hole course and £20 for the 9 hole.
		
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You wouldn't pay £40 for a round of golf?

Is that anywhere or do you not think your course is worth £40?


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## AliMc (Feb 9, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Is that Dunbar?

They have really pushed the prices up over the last few years, very nice course though.
		
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Yeah Dunbar LQ, as someone said earlier probably just keeping pace with similar courses in the area, North Berwick at £160 - ridiculous, would never ever consider paying that to play there, just my opinion obviously !


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Last year it was £90 a round Mon - Thu, £105 Fri and £120 Sat/Sun i think
		
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Twilight available too. That is very good value.

Shoulder rates too.


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Yeah Dunbar LQ, as someone said earlier probably just keeping pace with similar courses in the area, North Berwick at £160 - ridiculous, would never ever consider paying that to play there, just my opinion obviously !
		
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NB is up to £175 for this summer.

Nuts. You could get a game on the New AND Jubilee courses at St. Andrews for that.
They also are not part of the East Lothian members access scheme where we get on elsewhere for half price.


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## IanM (Feb 9, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Birkdale at £15 would be very silly as well, so can't we just meet in the "middle" and say £40 for a twilight tee-time? 

Click to expand...

That would be great, count me in.  Last time I was there, was as a member's guest and he paid!


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## brfcfan (Feb 9, 2021)

Why are people criticising those who would pay it as daft? £200 -£300 gets you 4 hours great golf on a fantastically prepared course, following in the footsteps of legends of the game.

Some people are happy going to McDonald where others would pay £200 for a top restaurant, £500 to go to Spain or others spend more as a treat to go somewhere different. There is nothing wrong with this its personal choice.

I think lockdown has created a new wave of keyboard warriors who enjoy trolling and putting down the opinions of others rather than living and let live.


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## Imurg (Feb 9, 2021)

brfcfan said:



			Why are people criticising those who would pay it as daft? £200 -£300 gets you 4 hours great golf on a fantastically prepared course, following in the footsteps of legends of the game.

Some people are happy going to McDonald where others would pay £200 for a top restaurant, £500 to go to Spain or others spend more as a treat to go somewhere different. There is nothing wrong with this its personal choice.

I think lockdown has created a new wave of keyboard warriors who enjoy trolling and putting down the opinions of others rather than living and let live.
		
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I don't think people are criticising those who want to spend their money on a top course, just the amount that those top courses are charging.


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 9, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Thing is it's not 'us' that's the target audience. It's yanks and Japanese and there is an endless supply of them willing to pay over inflated prices.
		
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You make a base assumption that they want visitors - i'm not sure they do.

There are several instances where clubs have hiked green fees to reduce numbers to ensure their members can get a tee time and eventually move to no play unless you are a member or guest. As the number of courses continues to decline and the numbers of nomadic golfers increase, I can see a lot of the courses following a similar route because they just don't need the green fees. The fact most of the top courses don't participate in the County Card scheme supports this.

A model that encourages country membership vs visitors is much more likely to evolve.


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## jim8flog (Feb 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			You wouldn't pay £40 for a round of golf?

Is that anywhere or do you not think your course is worth £40?
		
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It is that I would not pay £40 for a round of golf

Hard up pensioner


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is that I would not pay £40 for a round of golf

Hard up pensioner

Click to expand...

Fair enough.  Plenty opens at great courses for not much money.


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## birdyhunter (Feb 9, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Not that we can play Augusta, but for those members who can, the course is nothing like the course at the Sunday Masters
		
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That's a very simplistic way of looking at it.  Of course not many amateurs can play Augusta and throughout the year the course is nothing like the Masters.

However, many UK courses like Celtic Manor, Woburn, Hanbury Manor, Forest of Arden are available to play all year round and even after Seniors tour events where Langer, Montgomerie, Woosnam have just played.. you just have to pay the green fee.  Sure not everyone wants to, or can afford to pay, but plenty do and that's why they charge premium prices.


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## jim8flog (Feb 9, 2021)

KenL said:



			Fair enough.  Plenty opens at great courses for not much money.
		
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Being a senior I have played all the great courses in this area in interclub matches for free and a lot of the others in Opens, about the only other time I play away these days is in society days.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Know this will be slightly against the flow, but how many of you run a business that sells to locals, national and international ?

If you do, do you discount(massively) different for those markets or would you?

I know I wouldn't and don't to be honest, the price is my price, you could be english, Belgium, welsh, from herts or london or overseas doesn't make a difference to my price ......

Anyone can be a busy fool in business, as the saying goes. Birkdale could price it at £50 a round and have every tee time filled, but why do that......

That said the prices are stupid and way to high and most of the time isnt worth it

Click to expand...

No, but for me its a bit like football/sport. It is a business but its also a part of this nations fabric and should act differently.

Im sure that some lobdon clubs, man u and liverpool could just auction or sell their tickets every week to tourists and sell out and get 2-3 times the price, at the expense of long standing supporters, locals and season ticket holders, but currently dont.

It should be british sport for british people, and irish. Same with the golf courses, or are we just  a disneyland for tourist golfers and the rich only?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 9, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			England Golf are the governing body of the game in England for amateur golf.

They are not business owners so they cant force any club into offering a green fee discount, that is what the county card is for as loyalty for golf club members in England.

Then its down to each individual club to accept the county card.

As you will know a lot of the top top courses dont accept the county cards and I have no idea why but its there decision as a business and unfortunately its the clubs own policy on setting green fee prices and any loyalty offering.

There are a few of the top clubs in Scotland that offer a local green fee but I dont believe it is that many but I stand to be corrected, it showed last year when some brought down green fees considerably to show how much they are truly overcharging the american market. There was some serious deals to be had last year and I imagine this year will be the same.
		
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Correct, but if they do "benefit" the 637,000 england club golfers that they claim to do, maybe they should try and bring pressure to bear in whatever way they can.


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## Wildboy370 (Feb 9, 2021)

The prices they charge are what plenty of folks pay. Will be interesting to see if they keep them high this year with a travel ban or difficult travelling restrictions. Obviously most of them will have hefty bank balances and can probably ride the lack of visitors out. But interesting to see a difference of who wouldn’t who wouldn’t pay that amount. But a £200 + round of golf every year over a lifetime of able to play and enjoy is small fry to the average amount someone in London spends on alcohol in a lifetime £88000. Know where I would rather spend my money..


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## sunshine (Feb 9, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			You make a base assumption that they want visitors - i'm not sure they do.

There are several instances where clubs have hiked green fees to reduce numbers to ensure their members can get a tee time and eventually move to no play unless you are a member or guest. As the number of courses continues to decline and the numbers of nomadic golfers increase, I can see a lot of the courses following a similar route because they just don't need the green fees. The fact most of the top courses don't participate in the County Card scheme supports this.

A model that encourages country membership vs visitors is much more likely to evolve.
		
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I'm not sure it works like that.

The top clubs want some visitors because charging £1000 for a 4 ball subsidises the running costs and keeps membership fees low. The visitors also spend big on merch. They don't need to let in many members, a few tee times a day at quiet times is all they need, and it maintains the exclusivity and pricing structure.

Top clubs don't participate in the county card scheme because the scheme is based on reciprocity. There's no benefit to the members to let in people from the local muni on the county card scheme for cheap. Those members probably have no desire to go and play the local goat track in return. They probably have bi-lateral reciprocal arrangements negotiated with one or two other top clubs.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 9, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'd really like for it to be done in this way, but I don't think that's in line with reality unfortunately.   A lot based on what I'm reading here, as although most seem to agree that the prices are way over the top, there's a lot of people who are willing to "treat themselves" every once in a while to play these courses that come in at £200+.

A quick check tells me there's about 1 million golfers in the UK who plays once or twice a month. If we just take 5%, which I don't think is an exaggerated number (although don't have anything to back this up with really other than speaking to everyone I know who plays golf), that's 50,000 "treat myself rounds" from the UK only. Split that out on say the top 50 courses and that's 1,000 rounds a year for each course, bringing in some fairly serious dosh. Add overseas golfers and corporate bookings on top of that and I don't see any chance of prices go down or even to slow down.
		
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I think it is realistic, and like most dont mind paying premium fees to an extent, but due to the levels where getting to, basically only rich Brits or well off foreigners will be able to play them.

I'm not saying release hundreds of tee times for £30, but make it easier to afford for the people who have made these clubs what they are over the last 100 years, as an occasional treat.

However, no letting carpetbagging scandinavians take advantage until they have been here, at least, ooooo, 20 years.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Alas the SG hasn't done much for local golfers either, apart from the odd club, most of the deals are not there any longer, i think the best of the unions is the Irish one they do appear to offer a reduced reasonable rate to locals.
Most yanks don't have a clue what they are paying, for many of the clubs that do get overseas visitors you can get away with charging what you like, you get less visitors which members like and still get the same or more money coming in.

if i wanted to play Dornoch for instance i'd still have to pay £210, there is no local offer, they couldn't care less if locals can't play, why would they. they can, our could get close to 20,000 overseas visitors. my clubs the same, we don't get anywhere close the the same numbers they do and membership isn't subsidized as much.. already prompted for a big rise next year.


as you say Members should be putting pressure on the unions to do something about this, it is one of the great things about the sport is you can get to play the same courses as some of the greats of the game, not just the wealthy
		
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Yourselves will know more of which courses do and which ones dont, but down here it feels like a lot of them do, but maybe its more the new kids on the block like Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie and KB who do rather than the old traditional courses.

I would also say that them three are more businesses than golf clubs, so it just goes to show that "businesses" can operate using this model, so renders that argument as moot, by others.


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## howbow88 (Feb 10, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Unfortunately it is an example of wider trends in the way our society and the world is going.
I don’t like it in golf or elsewhere.
But..I know it is going to get worse, or more expensive, and so I choose to play those bucket-list courses that I truly want to play, as soon as I can. Doing so in the knowledge that ‘less is more’ (as I can’t afford or won’t choose) to make a habit out of it...so it is a one-off, and I think that will help me to truly enjoy the moment
		
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Yep. Events have become more desirable than material items. Partly because so many material items are now redundant due to smart phones/TVs, eg no real need for a sound system, CDs, blurays, etc. 

Events have also become huge thanks to social media. The 'keeping up with the Jones's' thing used to be about material items more than events, but Instagram has made fancy holiday pics, music festivals/gigs the new aim. 

And golf is seeing a similar trend, especially with 'influencers' making clubs that were once fairly secret, known to millions. 

The American tourists are often here only once, partly because of the logistics in that it isn't a short flight, but also because they get an incredibly small amount of holiday allowance from their workplaces. So if you're on a genuine 'trip of a lifetime', then you are understandably going to splash out and not worry too much about your credit card bill.


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## howbow88 (Feb 10, 2021)

brfcfan said:



			Why are people criticising those who would pay it as daft? £200 -£300 gets you 4 hours great golf on a fantastically prepared course, following in the footsteps of legends of the game.



Some people are happy going to McDonald where others would pay £200 for a top restaurant, £500 to go to Spain or others spend more as a treat to go somewhere different. There is nothing wrong with this its personal choice.



I think lockdown has created a new wave of keyboard warriors who enjoy trolling and putting down the opinions of others rather than living and let live.
		
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I really can't see anyone on here criticising the people who pay these high fees, more just criticism of the high fees.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yourselves will know more of which courses do and which ones dont, but down here it feels like a lot of them do, but maybe its more the new kids on the block like Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie and KB who do rather than the old traditional courses.

I would also say that them three are more businesses than golf clubs, so it just goes to show that "businesses" can operate using this model, so renders that argument as moot, by others.
		
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I've got a feeling there is something written into the planning or the like to allow locals at a reduced rate on these newer courses??

Just as well what would the new one or castle stuart done last year... even bigger losses


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yourselves will know more of which courses do and which ones dont, but down here it feels like a lot of them do, but maybe its more the new kids on the block like Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie and KB who do rather than the old traditional courses.

I would also say that them three are more businesses than golf clubs, so it just goes to show that "businesses" can operate using this model, so renders that argument as moot, by others.
		
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The new kids on the block as you have put it are not even entertaining membership and I dont believe that one course is affiliated to Scottish Golf either, they are pure and simple businesses and there aim is to run at a huge profit, they have done the local deals to either satisfy the local planing authority I guess but as you will notice its only for the local postcode holders.


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## DRW (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			No, but for me its a bit like football/sport. It is a business but its also a part of this nations fabric and should act differently.

Im sure that some lobdon clubs, man u and liverpool could just auction or sell their tickets every week to tourists and sell out and get 2-3 times the price, at the expense of long standing supporters, locals and season ticket holders, but currently dont.

It should be british sport for british people, and irish. Same with the golf courses, or are we just  a disneyland for tourist golfers and the rich only?
		
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Is somewhere like Birkdale or Muirfield or Sunningdale part (or even golf) part of the nations fabric. I am far from convinced of that, at a guess if you went back 75-100 years, these clubs were probably exclusive clubs ? (that the like of you or me(edit), would not have been able to play at, unless you knew someone. I could be wrong, I am guessing tbh)

I would probably say the members are like the season ticket holders/bond holders to football. And they are getting a cheap deal(as such).

The green fee visitors are people who are just using the business, just like walking into a corner shop and buying some sweeties. I think the difference is perhaps the way we look at business and what you/I think are clubs for the public benefit(so the local council run course should be run for the public benefit and priced cheaply. In my eyes Golf clubs should normally be run as a business for the benefit of the owners[who could be members or shareholders / propriety depending on setup].

Running a golf club/course nowadays costs vastly more than yesterday as peoples expectations are higher now and costs have risen massively, so green fees and/or membership fees have to be much higher. Visiting placing like Muirfield and the like and paying full fees, certainly changes your outlook, expectations and you can see at most places the money that is spent .

I'm 100%  agreeing with you that green fees are far to high at these clubs and could be probably 25%-40% cheaper from a business point of view.

Sadly it either down to people not visiting/paying the money or down to an organisation like England Golf to push harder for deals to be done, luckily no one is force to pay that amount or play the course.

Blimely that turned into a bit of a ramble, sorry


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think it is realistic, and like most dont mind paying premium fees to an extent, but due to the levels where getting to, basically only rich Brits or well off foreigners will be able to play them.

I'm not saying release hundreds of tee times for £30, but make it easier to afford for the people who have made these clubs what they are over the last 100 years, as an occasional treat.

However, no letting carpetbagging scandinavians take advantage until they have been here, at least, ooooo, 20 years. 

Click to expand...

I'm 100% agreeing, but I think it's like @Lincoln Quaker pointed out in his post, you cannot force clubs to do anything like this. For it to happen, you'd need to plea with the clubs to look at it from a emotional side, "grow the game" etc etc bla bla bla. Then if you're lucky enough to find the right people in these club that agree, they'll then need to navigate, what I would imagine it to be, the minefield that are the members to agree to something similar.

But yeah, in principal I agree with you and don't think it would hurt the clubs if they agreed to do some proper deals for us peasants, but I equally understand them from a business point of view that why would they sell it cheap when they know people fork out what ever it takes.

Only 14 year left for you guys to sort this thing out until I can start to take advantage of it as I'd done my 20 years by then. Get on it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

DRW said:



*Is somewhere like Birkdale or Muirfield or Sunningdale part (or even golf) part of the nations fabric.* I am far from convinced of that, at a guess if you went back 75-100 years, these clubs were probably exclusive clubs ? (that the like of you or me(edit), would not have been able to play at, unless you knew someone. I could be wrong, I am guessing tbh)

I would probably say the members are like the season ticket holders/bond holders to football. And they are getting a cheap deal(as such).

The green fee visitors are people who are just using the business, just like walking into a corner shop and buying some sweeties. I think the difference is perhaps the way we look at business and what you/I think are clubs for the public benefit(so the local council run course should be run for the public benefit and priced cheaply. In my eyes Golf clubs should normally be run as a business for the benefit of the owners[who could be members or shareholders / propriety depending on setup].

Running a golf club/course nowadays costs vastly more than yesterday as peoples expectations are higher now and costs have risen massively, so green fees and/or membership fees have to be much higher. Visiting placing like Muirfield and the like and paying full fees, certainly changes your outlook, expectations and you can see at most places the money that is spent .

I'm 100%  agreeing with you that green fees are far to high at these clubs and could be probably 25%-40% cheaper from a business point of view.

Sadly it either down to people not visiting/paying the money or down to an organisation like England Golf to push harder for deals to be done, luckily no one is force to pay that amount or play the course.

Blimely that turned into a bit of a ramble, sorry

Click to expand...

Which nation are you talking about?...If you are talking about Scotland then I'd suggest that golf is absolutely 100% part of the national fabric - a bit like asking if Burns is part of Scotland's fabric...

In fact I think golf as part of the nation's fabric applies to all of the UK - though perhaps to a lesser extent than in Scotland.


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## Crazyface (Feb 10, 2021)

You could argue "in what other sport could you play at the same place as the top players?". Well....not EXACTLY as I've quoted but along the same lines. (From another thread a while ago).


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## KenL (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yourselves will know more of which courses do and which ones dont, but down here it feels like a lot of them do, but maybe its more the new kids on the block like Castle Stuart, Dumbarnie and KB who do rather than the old traditional courses.

I would also say that them three are more businesses than golf clubs, so it just goes to show that "businesses" can operate using this model, so renders that argument as moot, by others.
		
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Are CS and KB still doing Scottish rates?


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

Well at least we are able to get on to these courses here in the UK. In the US you simply cannot play a significant proportion of courses as they are members and their guests only - the very, very long list of such clubs (up to 30%?) includes many of their oldest and best courses. The lists of the top courses over there has one which is 'the top courses you can play'. With a few exceptions we at least have the ability to play these historic venues albeit at these inflated prices.


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## DRW (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which nation are you talking about?...If you are talking about Scotland then I'd suggest that golf is absolutely 100% part of the national fabric - a bit like asking if Burns is part of Scotland's fabric...

In fact I think golf as part of the nation's fabric applies to all of the UK - though perhaps to a lesser extent than in Scotland.
		
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I am British.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

DRW said:



			I am British.
		
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And that's what my passport says for me also.

You asked a general question and I do not think there is a general answer.

And so I was very specific about golf perhaps being viewed differently in the eye of the general public depending upon which part of the country you are in.  Most Scots I suggest will consider golf as being part of the national fabric of Scotland.  I most certainly found the game viewed quite differently by my circle of friends and work colleagues when I moved to England in the early 1980s.


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## KenL (Feb 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Are CS and KB still doing Scottish rates?
		
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Yes they are although KB do not advertise it.
KB £164 book up to 3 weeks in advance
CS £120.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Yes they are although KB do not advertise it.
KB £164 book up to 3 weeks in advance
CS £120.
		
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don't know if Kingsnarns does the local postcode rate, but CS still does and the new place Dumbarnie, though theres wasn't as cheap as CS which is £60 now (was £50)

i remember the Old SGY website having a quite a few scottish rate deals, def some of the open courses were on there. not that many  on there now now


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## IanM (Feb 10, 2021)

Post code rate??

Its getting to the point where its worth buying a flat locally!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 10, 2021)

IanM said:



			Post code rate??

Its getting to the point where its worth buying a flat locally!!
		
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Just live in a PO Box 😂


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## davidy233 (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



*It should be british sport for british people*, and irish. Same with the golf courses, or are we just  a disneyland for tourist golfers and the rich only?
		
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I'm not sure that someone for Liverpool has any more connection or influence on the heritage and development of the Old Course or my local courses than someone from California.

100% up for cut rates for locals (residents of the town/local area where the course is) - not at all for tourists, including people on trips from other parts of the UK


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

IanM said:



			Post code rate??

Its getting to the point where its worth buying a flat locally!!
		
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but then you would have to pay everytime you play, cheaper to buy somewhere like Dornoch, no waiting list if you live in the town.. sames true of Carnoustie as well i think, prices might be higher there though


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I'm not sure that someone for Liverpool has any more connection or influence on the heritage and development of the Old Course or my local courses than someone from California.

100% up for cut rates for locals (residents of the town/local area where the course is) - not at all for tourists, including people on trips from other parts of the UK
		
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Even as an English man I think I would have to agree with you.

We would have as little input to the heritage and future development of these courses as the typical American or Japanese golf tourist. 

If discounts are to be offered then the postcode schemes sound the fairest.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 10, 2021)

My mate fancied a day trip to play Dumbarmie during the summer at short notice.

 He had a look to see there were loads of tee times available so gave them a ring so see if they would do a deal. Full whack, take it or leave it. He left it...

He would have happily paid the Scottish rate, not the American rate.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

saving_par said:



			My mate fancied a day trip to play Dumbarmie during the summer at short notice.

He had a look to see there were loads of tee times available so gave them a ring so see if they would do a deal. Full whack, take it or leave it. He left it...

He would have happily paid the Scottish rate, not the American rate.
		
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should have booked a time then stopped off on the way and rummaged though some bins in Fife and found a bill


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 10, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			should have booked a time then stopped off on the way and rummaged though some bins in Fife and found a bill

Click to expand...

He gave Archerfield a bell and got a decent deal. He's played there a few times and says they have always been flexible on green fee's.

Although I do like the sound of your idea


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## KenL (Feb 10, 2021)

Here is CS.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

Maybe I'll borrow the IV postcode I'll be staying at when visiting my cousins in Fortrose later this year  (all being well).

More seriously - could my cousin book me on with him at the locals rate?


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Here is CS.
View attachment 34962

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oosh stuck it up andother £20, still £60 for a 4 ball ....cheeky buggers were begging locals to play it last year all over SM saying they should support the course... mind you the £20 isn't drop in the ocean com to how much they are losing every year £1M plus


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe I'll borrow the IV postcode I'll be staying at when visiting my cousins in Fortrose later this year  (all being well).

More seriously - could my cousin book me on with him at the locals rate?
		
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might work, but i think they check sometimes and would expect 4 postcodes for a 4 ball


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			might work, but i think they check sometimes and would expect 4 postcodes for a 4 ball
		
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Well - I could use my aunt's IV postcode as she lives round the corner from one of my cousins.  In fact I have three cousins and an aunt all with separate IV postcodes 

But seems like your point is that CS would expect all players looking for the 'local' rate to be locals...not just one of a pair or 4ball


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## jim8flog (Feb 10, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Top clubs don't participate in the county card scheme because the scheme is based on reciprocity. There's no benefit to the members to let in people from the local muni on the county card scheme for cheap. Those members probably have no desire to go and play the local goat track in return. They probably have bi-lateral reciprocal arrangements negotiated with one or two other top clubs.
		
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That is what happened in Dorset 30+ years ago . Back then clubs like Ferndown, Parkstone and Broadstone were on the card but when the card started to have the 9 hole and newly built 'on the wrong type of land' courses on it the former took their names off it.


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## patricks148 (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - I could use my aunt's IV postcode as she lives round the corner from one of my cousins.  In fact I have three cousins and an aunt all with separate IV postcodes 

But seems like your point is that CS would expect all players looking for the 'local' rate to be locals...not just one of a pair or 4ball
		
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Yes, all of them, had a mate that worked there and they used to stop 3 locals with a  guest playing together..
 a local 4 ball is all locals not just one


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 10, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			That is what happened in Dorset 30+ years ago . Back then clubs like Ferndown, Parkstone and Broadstone were on the card but when the card started to have the 9 hole and newly built 'on the wrong type of land' courses on it the former took their names off it.
		
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Broadstone is on the county card scheme.


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## jim8flog (Feb 10, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Broadstone is on the county card scheme.
		
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 There was a time when you bought the county card for £25 and then played every course on it for free. Now it is half green fee they probably think it is worth it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Yes, all of them, had a mate that worked there and they used to stop 3 locals with a  guest playing together..
a local 4 ball is all locals not just one
		
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Dash it all - but expected...I'll just have to play Muir of Ord (where one of my cousins play) and Fortrose and Rosemarkie (half mile from another cousin).  And they look to be my sort of clubs.


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## evemccc (Feb 10, 2021)

There’s a municipal near me which has a membership but mostly is a green-fee type of place...Played it for £13 last May. It shot-up to £


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dash it all - but expected...I'll just have to play Muir of Ord (where one of my cousins play) and Fortrose and Rosemarkie (half mile from another cousin).  And they look to be my sort of clubs.
		
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Fortrose is proper links golf


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## Crazyface (Feb 10, 2021)

saving_par said:



			My mate fancied a day trip to play Dumbarmie during the summer at short notice.

He had a look to see there were loads of tee times available so gave them a ring so see if they would do a deal. Full whack, take it or leave it. He left it...

He would have happily paid the Scottish rate, not the American rate.
		
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DumBARMY if you ask me. Sorry.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			I've got a feeling there is something written into the planning or the like to allow locals at a reduced rate on these newer courses??

Just as well what would the new one or castle stuart done last year... even bigger losses
		
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Well done to the ones who either insisted on this, or offered this.

Have they started the next developments at Castle Stuart, be it the 2nd course or the surrounding housing?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

DRW said:



			Is somewhere like Birkdale or Muirfield or Sunningdale part (or even golf) part of the nations fabric. I am far from convinced of that, at a guess if you went back 75-100 years, these clubs were probably exclusive clubs ? (that the like of you or me(edit), would not have been able to play at, unless you knew someone. I could be wrong, I am guessing tbh)

I would probably say the members are like the season ticket holders/bond holders to football. And they are getting a cheap deal(as such).

The green fee visitors are people who are just using the business, just like walking into a corner shop and buying some sweeties. I think the difference is perhaps the way we look at business and what you/I think are clubs for the public benefit(so the local council run course should be run for the public benefit and priced cheaply. In my eyes Golf clubs should normally be run as a business for the benefit of the owners[who could be members or shareholders / propriety depending on setup].

Running a golf club/course nowadays costs vastly more than yesterday as peoples expectations are higher now and costs have risen massively, so green fees and/or membership fees have to be much higher. Visiting placing like Muirfield and the like and paying full fees, certainly changes your outlook, expectations and you can see at most places the money that is spent .

I'm 100%  agreeing with you that green fees are far to high at these clubs and could be probably 25%-40% cheaper from a business point of view.

Sadly it either down to people not visiting/paying the money or down to an organisation like England Golf to push harder for deals to be done, luckily no one is force to pay that amount or play the course.

Blimely that turned into a bit of a ramble, sorry

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Just one question - do you think staff wages, course maintenance, machinery etc is in line with the inflation of the green fees, or even close?

I very much doubt it.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Are CS and KB still doing Scottish rates?
		
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KB definitely, and CS were up to a few years ago.

CS also used to have a Scottish rate, which about 6 years ago was £75, compared to the normal rate which was £175.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			I'm not sure that someone for Liverpool has any more connection or influence on the heritage and development of the Old Course or my local courses than someone from California.

100% up for cut rates for locals (residents of the town/local area where the course is) - not at all for tourists, including people on trips from other parts of the UK
		
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So they must have built them railways to links courses for no apparent reasons then??????

People from the NW of England would have helped to develop Birkdale, Royal LIVERPOOL and Royal Lytham, same with Londoners for RSG, RCP and Princes, but also aided and abetted with other golfers from all over the Uk. The same with the Ayrshire, Lothian, Angus and Fife courses. Who would have been staying in the hotels of St. Andrews up until the 1970's in the main - British people, I would have thought. So yes, I think British people and the open have built up St. Andrews to what it is. Lots of American players didnt bother their arse to come over for the Open until, was it Arnie who made it become more fashionable?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

KenL said:



			Here is CS.
View attachment 34962

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Great, so these businesses can operate this way, just to a GB and I rate, and I think this would be ideal.


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## evemccc (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			So they must have built them railways to links courses for no apparent reasons then??????

People from the NW of England would have helped to develop Birkdale, Royal LIVERPOOL and Royal Lytham, same with Londoners for RSG, RCP and Princes, but also aided and abetted with other golfers from all over the Uk. The same with the Ayrshire, Lothian, Angus and Fife courses. Who would have been staying in the hotels of St. Andrews up until the 1970's in the main - British people, I would have thought. So yes, I think British people and the open have built up St. Andrews to what it is. Lots of American players didnt bother their arse to come over for the Open until, was it Arnie who made it become more fashionable?[/QUOTE


Agree 100%
		
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## davidy233 (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			So they must have built them railways to links courses for no apparent reasons then??????

People from the NW of England would have helped to develop Birkdale, Royal LIVERPOOL and Royal Lytham, same with Londoners for RSG, RCP and Princes, but also aided and abetted with other golfers from all over the Uk. The same with the Ayrshire, Lothian, Angus and Fife courses. Who would have been staying in the hotels of St. Andrews up until the 1970's in the main - British people, I would have thought. So yes, I think British people and the open have built up St. Andrews to what it is. Lots of American players didnt bother their arse to come over for the Open until, was it Arnie who made it become more fashionable?
		
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If you ain't local then you're a tourist


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			If you ain't local then you're a tourist
		
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And if there were no tourists St. Andrews would still be a "proper" municipal.

How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?


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## Papas1982 (Feb 10, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			If you ain't local then you're a tourist
		
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Tourists imo go for once in a lifetime.

Make the prices even remotely more affordable and the courses would have regular visitors meaning they wouldn’t need to rely on overseas visitors.
That would bring in more money to the whole area imo than just staying at the most exclusive places whilst playing the courses as those paying top dollar will tend to do.


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## davidy233 (Feb 10, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			And if there were no tourists St. Andrews would still be a "proper" municipal.

How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?
		
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There isn't a train station in St Andrews - it survived for a long time before tourism. Nothing wrong with being for the benefit of locals - that's what links trusts are for. Fife and Angus got that spot on.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 10, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			There isn't a train station in St Andrews - it survived for a long time before tourism. Nothing wrong with being for the benefit of locals - that's what links trusts are for. Fife and Angus got that spot on.
		
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St. Andrews may not, but most links courses do have one locally.

I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities where populated by 90% foreigners, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?


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## davidy233 (Feb 11, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			St. Andrews may not, but most links courses do have one locally.

I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities *where populated by 90% foreigners*, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?
		
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This is getting into borderline Nationalistic stuff that I can't be doing with


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## SammmeBee (Feb 11, 2021)

I think all green fees demonstrate the exceptional value that golf club membership offers, even more so at these high end green fee types.....


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well done to the ones who either insisted on this, or offered this.

Have they started the next developments at Castle Stuart, be it the 2nd course or the surrounding housing?
		
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i don't think its down to the courses, more the councils local dev initiatives. when CS was being built i was working for VS and we all got invited for a tour... not a game mind just a tour. i asked if there were going to be offers for locals as it was already branded around at £175 and back in 2008 that was a lot. the guy (who later went on to be out club sec) told me locals would be limited to 1 or two 4 ball slots a day and visitors where the target wanted it exclusive with no locals once it was up and running. they were hoping to tap into the City trader market. they had lobbed for a london city flight, so you could get from central london to the course is less that and hour and be back in your pad in London that night. Fin crash and that never happened.

With the other courses they have built a 9 hole, but no evidence of anything else happening at the moment, esp with both Mark Parsinen and Arnold Palmer both passing away. its been up for sale for a few years now, and according to someone who works there losing £1m plus a year


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Dash it all - but expected...I'll just have to play Muir of Ord (where one of my cousins play) and Fortrose and Rosemarkie (half mile from another cousin).  And they look to be my sort of clubs.
		
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nothing wrong with either of those, if you are a good boy i  might even take you on Nairn


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## evemccc (Feb 11, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			i don't think its down to the courses, more the councils local dev initiatives. when CS was being built i was working for VS and we all got invited for a tour... not a game mind just a tour. i asked if there were going to be offers for locals as it was already branded around at £175 and back in 2008 that was a lot. the guy (who later went on to be out club sec) told me locals would be limited to 1 or two 4 ball slots a day and visitors where the target wanted it exclusive with no locals once it was up and running. they were hoping to tap into the City trader market. they had lobbed for a london city flight, so you could get from central london to the course is less that and hour and be back in your pad in London that night. Fin crash and that never happened.

With the other courses they have built a 9 hole, but no evidence of anything else happening at the moment, esp with both Mark Parsinen and Arnold Palmer both passing away. its been up for sale for a few years now, and according to someone who works there losing £1m plus a year
		
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Good point.


Well in contrast to some on here, I think there is v little benefit to the local community of very rich people flying in and out, spending zero money locally and only spending the hours playing golf in the local area, without visiting any of the local BnBs and cafes etc.
There is no money going into the community, into normal people’s businesses...only to a probably equity-fund owned golf course, or if they do stay the night it’ll be some multinational five star hotel or whatever.

If more normal people from around the country played the top courses, the amount of people utilising locally owned normal restaurants,
Pubs and BnBs of the coastal links course towns would increase dramatically 

Pitching primarily to wealthy Americans or Japanese undermines this.
But according to some on here, incentivising green fees to British people who would then travel, play golf, and pump some money into local businesses is nationalistic bordering Nazism..


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## SaintHacker (Feb 11, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?
		
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And do Formby and Freshfield count as one?


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## backwoodsman (Feb 11, 2021)

I think that folk just need to get their heads around the concept & practices of the luxury goods & services market. Certain high quality things - be they cars, watches, clothes, wine or even golf courses  - are regarded as the epitome of their kind and have a certain "cachet" about them. Consequently, the providers market them at whatever the customer is prepared to pay. And as long as there are enough willing to pay it, then they will continue to do so. And there is no real incentive for them to offer discounts - which can indeed have a negative effect  as a discount can imply that the "product" is truly worth the higher price.

I applaud those courses - predominantly Scottish - that do offer discounted rates to locals but  dont expect it to be widespread. And were stuck with it. But then,  we all know there are "products" out there that dont quite have the "cachet" - but which are generally so good that mere mortals cant tell the difference - and which have a sensible price tag attached


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

Roughly 60% of the course listed in the OP are member's clubs and several of the remainder are, effectively, municipals.

Should the question, therefore,  not be directed at the members of those clubs or the council tax payers? Do they want more visitors, sometimes making it even harder for them to play when they wish?

As has been said on other threads regarding dress codes etc; "It's their club and they are the ones who should decide on how it's run."


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## DRW (Feb 11, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Just one question - do you think staff wages, course maintenance, machinery etc is in line with the inflation of the green fees, or even close?

I very much doubt it.
		
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Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740  (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2021)

DRW said:



			Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.



.
		
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This does highlight one of the poor bits of information on the original post. Using the rate of inflation for comparison. The rate of inflation is a very selective pot of costs mainly incurred by households and most business costs would not be in the 'basket'

From https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/infl...erpriceinflationbasketofgoodsandservices/2020

*CPIH weight,
Jan 2020 (per cent)* *Observed variation
in price changes¹* *Representative items²
(per cent of total)* 1Food and non-alcoholic beverages7.9Medium24 2Alcohol and tobacco3.1Low4 3Clothing and footwear5.2Medium11 4Housing and household services29.5Low5 5Furniture and household goods5.1Medium10 6Health2.1Low3 7Transport12.1Medium6 8Communication1.7Medium2 9Recreation and culture13.6Medium17 10Education2.4Low1 11Restaurants and hotels9.6Low7 12Miscellaneous goods and services


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 11, 2021)

DRW said:



			Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740  (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.
		
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I'm gonna hazard a guess that the green fee income is as a result of a chosen strategy to cut down on opportunities for visitors to play whilst increasing the cost of the green fee. 

It seem strange that a course that is on a top 100 list wouldn't be able to increase it's income from visitors green fee's other than by their own choice. Only taking myself as an example, but every year, what do I look at mainly when it comes to new courses? It most definitely starts with top 100, and with the ever increasing use of internet, social media and "importance" put on lists like this, I don't think I'm alone in wanting to tick off courses that appear on these lists.


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## howbow88 (Feb 11, 2021)

Just a quick aside - The Old Course could definitely charge far more if they wanted to. £195 is too expensive for me personally, but rightly or wrongly, Americans would pay double that to play just once at 'The Home Of Golf'. It is on nearly every golfer's bucket list and in fairness to whoever is doing the pricing for it, they aren't absolutely taking the Michael at the moment... That may well change one day though.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Just a quick aside - The Old Course could definitely charge far more if they wanted to. £195 is too expensive for me personally, but rightly or wrongly, Americans would pay double that to play just once at 'The Home Of Golf'. It is on nearly every golfer's bucket list and in fairness to whoever is doing the pricing for it, they aren't absolutely taking the Michael at the moment... That may well change one day though.
		
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i'd agree, def not as out of reach as some, but when you think TOC is subsidizing 7 courses, shows just how much the TOC must generate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			nothing wrong with either of those, if you are a good boy i  might even take you on Nairn

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And I'd offer a personal reciprocal for when you're next down in Surrey - only 10hrs drive...


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I'd offer a personal reciprocal for when you're next down in Surrey - only 10hrs drive... 

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you would be safe with that one....


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## DRW (Feb 11, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'm gonna hazard a guess that the green fee income is as a result of a chosen strategy to cut down on opportunities for visitors to play whilst increasing the cost of the green fee.

It seem strange that a course that is on a top 100 list wouldn't be able to increase it's income from visitors green fee's other than by their own choice. Only taking myself as an example, but every year, what do I look at mainly when it comes to new courses? It most definitely starts with top 100, and with the ever increasing use of internet, social media and "importance" put on lists like this, I don't think I'm alone in wanting to tick off courses that appear on these lists.
		
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When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

DRW said:



			When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

*Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists *?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.
		
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funny you say that, but pretty much every guy i know and play with at Nairn  all want to try top courses and make an effort to get and play as many as they can, if you were to ask guys at old Torvean/ Kingss in Inverness  the opposite, happy to play all there golf at their home club, i was staggered by the number of guys hadn't played many if any of even the locatl top courses


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 11, 2021)

DRW said:



			When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.
		
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At my golf club, of the people I know, there's a few who couldn't care less. They'd be happy to play our home courses every single day of the week, all year round. Apart from them, there's varying degrees. I'm obviously on the more extreme side, day dreaming myself away and can spend hours looking at flyovers, planning hypothetical trips to these places etc, so in that I'm alone at the club as far as I'm aware. Then we have a few who like to treat themselves once a year or so with a nicer course. The biggest group though are the one's who don't really mind, but if someone else sorts everything, then they could splash some cash, to a certain degree. I don't think I'd find anyone to join me for Sunningdale at £275 though. Well, I wouldn't go myself at that price, so.


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## davidy233 (Feb 11, 2021)

I've played five of the courses on the list posted at the start of the thread - two of them paying full price Old Course and Royal Dornoch - requirements for a family holiday when my kids were small were a beach for them and a nice golf course for me - but it was an awful lot cheaper back then - the three in the last decade have all been at cut price rates - My brother in law is a member at North Berwick and when we played in the winter it was a ridiculously low signing on fee for me - Cruden Bay was a seniors open and cost £15 - Carnoustie was £85 five years ago as a local council tax payer. Would I pay full price for them now - probably not.

The people I know who play in this area will mostly have played the Old Course and Carnoustie if they want to and I've never really found many who have a desire to pay full price to collect other 'top rated courses' - like everyone else if a member/season ticket holder wants to sign them on then most would take the opportunity.


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## sunshine (Feb 11, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities where populated by 90% foreigners, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?
		
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This is essentially an emotional argument based on what suits you.

Why should the members of a private club choose to halve the green fee so that you can afford it? They would then need to double the number of visitors to maintain the same income, so it would become more difficult for members to find tee times. There would also be more traffic around the course and clubhouse so more maintenance costs.

I'd love the top courses to cap green fees at £50 but that's just me being selfish.


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## AliMc (Feb 11, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			At my golf club, of the people I know, there's a few who couldn't care less. They'd be happy to play our home courses every single day of the week, all year round. Apart from them, there's varying degrees. I'm obviously on the more extreme side, day dreaming myself away and can spend hours looking at flyovers, planning hypothetical trips to these places etc, so in that I'm alone at the club as far as I'm aware. Then we have a few who like to treat themselves once a year or so with a nicer course. The biggest group though are the one's who don't really mind, but if someone else sorts everything, then they could splash some cash, to a certain degree. I don't think I'd find anyone to join me for Sunningdale at £275 though. Well, I wouldn't go myself at that price, so. 

Click to expand...

I'm very similar to this, played quite a few of the courses mentioned when rates were what I considered reasonable/affordable, now would be perfectly happy to play all my golf at Dunbar with only a couple of trips a year (when allowed) to some of our reciprocal courses which are all about £35 max, some less than this.


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## sunshine (Feb 11, 2021)

AliMc said:



			I'm very similar to this, played quite a few of the courses mentioned when rates were what I considered reasonable/affordable, now would be perfectly happy to play all my golf at Dunbar with only a couple of trips a year (when allowed) to some of our reciprocal courses which are all about £35 max, some less than this.
		
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If you're a member at a lovely place like Dunbar you have less incentive to fork out visitors fees to play courses which aren't much better than your own.

On the other hand I have some mates who are members at a public course and they are always off on trips to nice courses. They pay £100 membership and then it's pay and play so their golf budget extends to expensive green fees.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 11, 2021)

DRW said:



			When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.
		
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Me and my PP's are members of a very modestly priced club so that we can still afford green fees when we want a change of scenery. I would'nt say we would happily pay the green fees in the OP, but as part of a golf weekend with a nights stay away etc we probably would. Collecting the top 100 is not a target, but I sure would like to play as many of them as possible over my years of golfing! Its a treat to play them - as you said!


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## jim8flog (Feb 11, 2021)

[QUOTE="DRW, post: 2307396, member: 21258" In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. .[/QUOTE]

2008 recession / stock market crash


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Me and my PP's are members of a very modestly priced club so that we can still afford green fees when we want a change of scenery. I would'nt say we would happily pay the green fees in the OP, but as part of a golf weekend with a nights stay away etc we probably would. Collecting the top 100 is not a target, but I sure would like to play as many of them as possible over my years of golfing! Its a treat to play them - as you said!
		
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While there is definitely something to be said for experiencing the joys of top-end courses, it's almost as rewarding finding fantastic courses at (relative) bargain rates! And I believe there are still plenty of those to be found.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2021)

I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf.  My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf.  My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...

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I hope you are going to tick off Silloth on your way up to tick off Nairn later this year


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 11, 2021)

sunshine said:



			This is essentially an emotional argument based on what suits you.

Why should the members of a private club choose to halve the green fee so that you can afford it? They would then need to double the number of visitors to maintain the same income, so it would become more difficult for members to find tee times. There would also be more traffic around the course and clubhouse so more maintenance costs.

I'd love the top courses to cap green fees at £50 but that's just me being selfish.
		
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Generally, you couldn't be more wrong.


DRW said:



			Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740  (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.
		
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Very good research.

I'd love to know what the profit comparison is, though.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf.  My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...

Click to expand...

Sounds like you got a great deal there


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## matt71 (Feb 12, 2021)

Have to admit I am have played some of the top 100 at full price but played some in winter/Easter time when the cost is reduced by quite a bit.

Royal Liverpool accept the county card and it’s around £50 to play there and I was lucky to get on Royal Lytham for free as I was a Marshall at one of the opens. 

However me and the wife are off to Ireland at the end of May ( hopefully we can still go if all is well and safe) and I am paying full price for Royal Portrush and portstewart for my 50th birthday 

The good thing is that my wife has been offered courtesy of the course as she is lady captain this year so it make the round half price  

I can’t ruddy wait just not confident that we will be allowed to go now though


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I hope you are going to tick off Silloth on your way up to tick off Nairn later this year 

Click to expand...

Last time we headed north I played Southerness (is it on a list?) - well me and my daughters b/f played five holes, but in a horizontal deluge that’s all we could cope with before trudging in...drowned rats...

Anyway...next time north it‘ll just be me and Mrs...so no golf likely until Inverness (we will stop at Dunkeld or Pitlochry and maybe...🤔).   Possibility that we’ll extend trip to include Islay to stay at my brothers place while he’s there (he’s a member of Machrie).


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 12, 2021)

matt71 said:



			Have to admit I am have played some of the top 100 at full price but played some in winter/Easter time when the cost is reduced by quite a bit.

Royal Liverpool accept the county card and it’s around £50 to play there and I was lucky to get on Royal Lytham for free as I was a Marshall at one of the opens.

However me and the wife are off to Ireland at the end of May ( hopefully we can still go if all is well and safe) and I am paying full price for Royal Portrush and portstewart for my 50th birthday 

The good thing is that my wife has been offered courtesy of the course as she is lady captain this year so it make the round half price 

I can’t ruddy wait just not confident that we will be allowed to go now though
		
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Me too, I'm there the last week of May, 1st week of June, all being well.

Hoping to play the same two, and maybe Portsalon or Rosapenna.

Portrush is brilliant, but I havent played portstewart before, but LQ and Capt. ron said that the front 9 is one of the best they've played.


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## sunshine (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Generally, you couldn't be more wrong.
		
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Care to elaborate?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last time we headed north I played Southerness (is it on a list?) - well me and my daughters b/f played five holes, but in a horizontal deluge that’s all we could cope with before trudging in...drowned rats...

Anyway...next time north it‘ll just be me and Mrs...so no golf likely until Inverness (we will stop at Dunkeld or Pitlochry and maybe...🤔).   Possibility that we’ll extend trip to include Islay to stay at my brothers place while he’s there (he’s a member of Machrie).
		
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Southerness is certainly on the list of brutally tough courses 🤣


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## DRW (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Very good research.

I'd love to know what the profit comparison is, though.
		
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Hey cheeky you said one question before 

For this club here some figures [will round to nearest 1k], I dont show the VAT rebate years, as clearly mega excesses :-

1994   28,000 profit
1995   28,000 profit
1999   -5,000 loss
2000    6,000 profit
2004   71,000 profit
2005   20,000 profit
2010   27,000 profit
2012  -36,000 loss
2013   47,000 profit
2014   69,000 profit
2015   34,000 profit
2017     1,000 profit
2018   -23,000 loss
2019   21,000 profit

I will leave you to judge, if you think the profits/losses made are excessive or above average at this club, green fees are about £80, they take county card & reciprocals at less and the bulk of their income is membership income and course is busy when I have played there and not top notch or excess employees when compared to the top flight clubs.

As I say a bog standard top 100 members club. So generally better off than a standard members average club and much lower running costs than a top flight club. I have seen alot worse results btw(and better), at other top 100 england clubs, not far from you, that you would not expect.

BTW It would be wrong to expect the figures to be zero or near zero, as any proper business(even not for profit based ones) need to make profits to fund the future and inflation changes. Many golf clubs tend to have positive cash flow, which helps as well and they then can keep profit requirements fairly low, unless they want to invest big in course changes/equipment/clubhouse (ie. by positive cashflow I mean they get the money first/now/in advance to spend afterwards to run the club for the year)


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## sunshine (Feb 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			Hey cheeky you said one question before 

For this club here some figures [will round to nearest 1k], I dont show the VAT rebate years, as clearly mega excesses :-

1994   28,000 profit
1995   28,000 profit
1999   -5,000 loss
2000    6,000 profit
2004   71,000 profit
2005   20,000 profit
2010   27,000 profit
2012  -36,000 loss
2013   47,000 profit
2014   69,000 profit
2015   34,000 profit
2017     1,000 profit
2018   -23,000 loss
2019   21,000 profit

I will leave you to judge, if you think the profits/losses made are excessive or above average at this club, green fees are about £80, they take county card & reciprocals at less and the bulk of their income is membership income and course is busy when I have played there and not top notch or excess employees when compared to the top flight clubs.

As I say a bog standard top 100 members club. So generally better off than a standard members average club and much lower running costs than a top flight club. I have seen alot worse results btw(and better), at other top 100 england clubs, not far from you, that you would not expect.

BTW It would be wrong to expect the figures to be zero or near zero, as any proper business(even not for profit based ones) need to make profits to fund the future and inflation changes. Many golf clubs tend to have positive cash flow, which helps as well and they then can keep profit requirements fairly low, unless they want to invest big in course changes/equipment/clubhouse (ie. by positive cashflow I mean they get the money first/now/in advance to spend afterwards to run the club for the year)
		
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Did you consider advising a leveraged management buyout to release the excess cash flow? There's also the tax shield provided by increasing debt.


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## Golfnut1957 (Feb 12, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Southerness is certainly on the list of brutally tough courses 🤣
		
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Played Southerness years ago, other than we also suffered horizontal rain off the Irish Sea, my best memory is of my mate hitting a huge slice over some dunes and trudging off alone to look for it. When he didn't re-appear I went to look for him and found him stood on a beach covered in white pebbles. Left him to it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 12, 2021)

I'm hoping to get down to Australia this winter covid permitting as the Melbourne sandbelt courses have been at the top of my bucket list for as long as I can remember. If you think the green fees at our top courses are bad you would cry at what they charge down under! Royal Melbourne is $750 Oz plus $160 for compulsory caddie which at current exchange rates is £510! Then there is Metropolitan, Huntingdale, Commonwealth and Yarra Yarra to add to the list.

How much can you sell a kidney for these days?


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## KenL (Feb 12, 2021)

drive4show said:



			I'm hoping to get down to Australia this winter covid permitting as the Melbourne sandbelt courses have been at the top of my bucket list for as long as I can remember. If you think the green fees at our top courses are bad you would cry at what they charge down under! Royal Melbourne is $750 Oz plus $160 for compulsory caddie which at current exchange rates is £510! Then there is Metropolitan, Huntingdale, Commonwealth and Yarra Yarra to add to the list.

How much can you sell a kidney for these days?
		
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That's a pity. Members at my club have a reciprocal at 3 clubs. Would love to get down there.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 12, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Care to elaborate?
		
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No thanks, I'm good. 

Suffice to say that I've played all the courses mentioned and paid anything from top rate, or for free.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			Hey cheeky you said one question before 

For this club here some figures [will round to nearest 1k], I dont show the VAT rebate years, as clearly mega excesses :-

1994   28,000 profit
1995   28,000 profit
1999   -5,000 loss
2000    6,000 profit
2004   71,000 profit
2005   20,000 profit
2010   27,000 profit
2012  -36,000 loss
2013   47,000 profit
2014   69,000 profit
2015   34,000 profit
2017     1,000 profit
2018   -23,000 loss
2019   21,000 profit

I will leave you to judge, if you think the profits/losses made are excessive or above average at this club, green fees are about £80, they take county card & reciprocals at less and the bulk of their income is membership income and course is busy when I have played there and not top notch or excess employees when compared to the top flight clubs.

As I say a bog standard top 100 members club. So generally better off than a standard members average club and much lower running costs than a top flight club. I have seen alot worse results btw(and better), at other top 100 england clubs, not far from you, that you would not expect.

BTW It would be wrong to expect the figures to be zero or near zero, as any proper business(even not for profit based ones) need to make profits to fund the future and inflation changes. Many golf clubs tend to have positive cash flow, which helps as well and they then can keep profit requirements fairly low, unless they want to invest big in course changes/equipment/clubhouse (ie. by positive cashflow I mean they get the money first/now/in advance to spend afterwards to run the club for the year)
		
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More answers begat more questions. 

How come there are gaps? At least they offer county card, I'll say that for them.

Silloth?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			More answers begat more questions. 

How come there are gaps? At least they offer county card, I'll say that for them.

Silloth?

Click to expand...

It's not Silloth.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			More answers begat more questions. 

How come there are gaps? At least they offer county card, I'll say that for them.

Silloth?

Click to expand...




saving_par said:



			It's not Silloth.
		
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Come on LB, only 99 more guesses at worst...


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## Captainron (Feb 13, 2021)

I don’t have an issue with clubs charging what they feel they are worth. After all, you as the consumer have the option to choose whether you pay for the use of their facility. 

The list is obviously influenced by world rankings and the appetite of foreign visitors who are expecting to pay top dollar for the privilege.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I don’t have an issue with clubs charging what they feel they are worth. After all, you as the consumer have the option to choose whether you pay for the use of their facility.

The list is obviously influenced by world rankings and the appetite of foreign visitors who are expecting to pay top dollar for the privilege.
		
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Totally agree. 

If you don’t like the green fees you don’t have to play it. No one is forcing you. Plenty of other courses out there to be played. 

I don’t agree with Kingsbarns been £328 so I won’t be handling over that amount but good luck to the people that do and thoroughly enjoy it.


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## evemccc (Feb 13, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Totally agree. 

If you don’t like the green fees you don’t have to play it. No one is forcing you. Plenty of other courses out there to be played. 

I don’t agree with Kingsbarns been £328 so I won’t be handling over that amount but good luck to the people that do and thoroughly enjoy it.
		
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Yes. 


But, it’s still a large section of land / coastline, that’s owned by private equity and marketed almost exclusively to wealthy Americans. You just have to see the website to see that.

Few of these stay in local BnBs or local cafes/businesses, most will be spending top dollar to stay in multinational hotel chains and the richest will be helicoptering in and out, like at Dornoch..

V little of this business filters down to the community and independent businesses

Another reason why I’m glad Coul Links got jettisoned


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## Jimaroid (Feb 13, 2021)

evemccc said:



			But, it’s still a large section of land / coastline, that’s owned by private equity and marketed almost exclusively to wealthy Americans. You just have to see the website to see that.
		
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Well Kingsbarns golf links are an American company after all. Worth considering they don’t own the land or coastline either, it’s leased from the very well to do local estate for a very large yearly sum.

So the green fees are partly due to the good old British upper class wealth system in action. 

And to be fair a lot of that money seems to goes back into heritage projects around the wider estate from which the local population has benefitted greatly.

So you’re wrong to say there’s no benefit to the community.


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## evemccc (Feb 13, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Well Kingsbarns golf links are an American company after all. Worth considering they don’t own the land or coastline either, it’s leased from the very well to do local estate for a very large yearly sum.

So the green fees are partly due to the good old British upper class wealth system in action. 

And to be fair a lot of that money seems to goes back into heritage projects around the wider estate from which the local population has benefitted greatly.

So you’re wrong to say there’s no benefit to the community.
		
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Okay, willing to be corrected


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Yes.


But, it’s still a large section of land / coastline, that’s owned by private equity and marketed almost exclusively to wealthy Americans. You just have to see the website to see that.

Few of these stay in local BnBs or local cafes/businesses, most will be spending top dollar to stay in multinational hotel chains and the richest will be helicoptering in and out, like at Dornoch..

V little of this business filters down to the community and independent businesses

Another reason why I’m glad Coul Links got jettisoned
		
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Agree 100% about Coull. Environmental aspect was massive for me but Scotland does not need another golf course that our residents can't afford to play.


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## Captainron (Feb 13, 2021)

KenL said:



			Agree 100% about Coull. Environmental aspect was massive for me but Scotland does not need another golf course that our residents can't afford to play.
		
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Plenty of people can afford to play the courses. They choose not to because it doesn’t represent value for money. Massive difference.


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## KenL (Feb 13, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Plenty of people can afford to play the courses. They choose not to because it doesn’t represent value for money. Massive difference.
		
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Aye, whatever. 🤣


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## sunshine (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			No thanks, I'm good.

Suffice to say that I've played all the courses mentioned and paid anything from top rate, or for free.

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so basically I was completely correct


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 14, 2021)

sunshine said:



			so basically I was completely correct 

Click to expand...

Nope, not really.


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## sunshine (Feb 15, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Nope, not really.
		
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When that's the best you can come up with, you know I am 100% correct.


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## DRW (Feb 15, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			More answers begat more questions. 

How come there are gaps? At least they offer county card, I'll say that for them.

Silloth?

Click to expand...

I do hate to imagine the money that the likes of Muirfield is making even on limited tee times(old courses, where the course was built years ago and millions haven't been spent recently via borrowed funds). I know from another open venue that their profits and green fees are up alot over that period, eye watering increases.

Hence why I say I think from a business sense that those kind of courses the green fees could probably be 25-40% lower from a business point of view. But as people are willing to pay it, why reduce.......

The green fees are just to high for me to visit now, may do one now and then. Also given my playing partner could be playing the worst links course and she wouldn't realise or care, I will have to wait for invites to play any of the other £250+ green fee courses (wont happen).

Or will have to hope my lucky stars align and become a GM marker


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## patricks148 (Feb 15, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Another reason why I’m glad Coul Links got jettisoned
		
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its not dead yet, will be down to the next Scottish Election, i'd imagine if the SNP get a big Maj and don't need the greens any longer that might just sneak through


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## KenL (Feb 15, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			its not dead yet, will be down to the next Scottish Election, i'd imagine if the SNP get a big Maj and don't need the greens any longer that might just sneak through
		
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Political post alert.😂


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## evemccc (Feb 15, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			its not dead yet, will be down to the next Scottish Election, i'd imagine if the SNP get a big Maj and don't need the greens any longer that might just sneak through
		
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Typical...🙃


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## sunshine (Feb 15, 2021)

DRW said:



			I do hate to imagine the money that the likes of Muirfield is making even on limited tee times(old courses, where the course was built years ago and millions haven't been spent recently via borrowed funds). I know from another open venue that their profits and green fees are up alot over that period, eye watering increases.

Hence why I say I think from a business sense that those kind of courses the green fees could probably be 25-40% lower from a business point of view. But as people are willing to pay it, why reduce.......
		
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Agree. I expect these courses own the land and clubhouse outright too... mortgage probably paid off 100 years ago.

But, as a private members club I assume the increases in green fees are passed on in the form of reduced membership subs. Membership at an Open venue is probably an incredible bargain


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## patricks148 (Feb 15, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Agree. I expect these courses own the land and clubhouse outright too... mortgage probably paid off 100 years ago.

But, as a private members club I assume the increases in green fees are passed on in the form of reduced membership subs. Membership at an Open venue is probably an incredible bargain
		
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Open venue clubs would also employ a fair few greenstaff and have lots of equipment, so the running costs would be quite high i'd imagine, we are not an open venue but do have 15 greenstaff wages alone are eye watering


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## KenL (Feb 15, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Agree. I expect these courses own the land and clubhouse outright too... mortgage probably paid off 100 years ago.

But, as a private members club I assume the increases in green fees are passed on in the form of reduced membership subs. Membership at an Open venue is probably an incredible bargain
		
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I believe Muirfield is about £1200, well it was a couple of years ago.


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## KenL (Feb 15, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Open venue clubs would also employ a fair few greenstaff and have lots of equipment, so the running costs would be quite high i'd imagine, we are not an open venue but do have 15 greenstaff wages alone are eye watering
		
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Is that for one course?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 15, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Open venue clubs would also employ a fair few greenstaff and have lots of equipment, so the running costs would be quite high i'd imagine, we are not an open venue but do have 15 greenstaff wages alone are eye watering
		
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15 greenstaff 

We have 4 full time and a couple of part timers during summer.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 15, 2021)

A thought for those who want the green fees cut; how will that affect your club?  If all the prestige clubs halved their green fees making them more accessible to the green fee payers, how many would go there rather than the clubs in the bracket just below; and what do the clubs in the bracket just below do to recover their lost income; and how does that affect those just below them?

Whilst I appreciate & understand the desire for the cheaper green fees, there is potentially a knock on effect that could affect the clubs lower down the pecking order, and potentially your subs.


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## patricks148 (Feb 16, 2021)

saving_par said:



			15 greenstaff 

We have 4 full time and a couple of part timers during summer.
		
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they took on a couple of extra ones end of last year for the Am Championship. 5 appear to be doing nothing but divot filling, we have been on mats since Nov, trouble is bad weather keeps washing it away, i'd think they would have worked out to not bother again now till end of march


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## KenL (Feb 16, 2021)

I am all for employing staff to look after your course but that many GK staff is way over the top.

Dunbar has 7 or 8 for 1 course.
Gullane has 25 - 30 for 3 courses.
Royal Troon had 13 staff for 2 courses when I spoke to one of them about 5 years ago.


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## AliMc (Feb 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			I believe Muirfield is about £1200, well it was a couple of years ago.
		
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Rumour always was that the cost of running everything at Muirfield was split between the membership and that was what they paid each year, probably just bollocks though 🤔


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 16, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Rumour always was that the cost of running everything at Muirfield was split between the membership and that was what they paid each year, probably just bollocks though 🤔
		
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I wouldn't be surprised, quite a few exclusive clubs run on that basis.


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## Slab (Feb 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			I am all for employing staff to look after your course but that many GK staff is way over the top.

Dunbar has 7 or 8 for 1 course.
Gullane has 25 - 30 for 3 courses.
Royal Troon had 13 staff for 2 courses when I spoke to one of them about 5 years ago.
		
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Local place has around 20 guys to look after the course and about same again for maintaining off-course grass/plant areas etc (wages for manual labour are much lower here though)


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## KenL (Feb 16, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Rumour always was that the cost of running everything at Muirfield was split between the membership and that was what they paid each year, probably just bollocks though 🤔
		
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Yes it is. I spoke to an older chap and his son who were both members up at Boat of Garten 2 years ago.
He told me £1200 and £800 for seniors.

No doubt almost impossible to gain membership.


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## patricks148 (Feb 16, 2021)

KenL said:



			Yes it is. I spoke to an older chap and his son who were both members up at Boat of Garten 2 years ago.
He told me £1200 and £800 for *seniors.*

No doubt almost impossible to gain membership.
		
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anyone under 80 get s junior


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?


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## patricks148 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?
		
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i'd agree for the open venues to have a deal for UK based golfers, even if it were a limited number of times per week at least it would give some a chance to play


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?
		
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You can't compare visiting golfers with football fans. 

The latter are committed to one team and if they can't afford to watch their team, either at home or  away, they will not go to watch one of their rivals. 

Therefore  it is not truly a market. 

Golfers are, in that respect,  different. If they can't afford say Muirfield then they will  often compromise and visit Gullane for example. 

If I was a member of one of the clubs charging these very high fees I would not want to see the green fee reduced if it was going to result in a fall in the club's income as the members would be those expected to cover that shortfall.

Also if the reduction was to lead to an increase in visitors I would not be happy if that then reduced my access to start times.

If the Club felt that they needed to greatly increase the number of visitors then the Committee will have a tough task in selling that to their members.


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## howbow88 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?
		
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Fair point. I guess the main difference is that 90% of Premier League clubs are highly unlikely to encounter any kind of financial problems, anytime soon. Even for top golf clubs, this current situation is going to bite them.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?
		
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I dont think you can compare a football club with a golf club as most top top courses are owned by members and why would they want to discount something that they can sell for full price, they are not interested in any UK loyalty or they would be doing that already.

Well I guess you will see how much they want to lower the fees as it looks like we wont have any american visitors again for the most part of this season so lets see how the big hitters adjust the green fees.

Would be interesting to see what and if any deals are on the table.


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I dont think you can compare a football club with a golf club as most top top courses are owned by members and why would they want to discount something that they can sell for full price, they are not interested in any UK loyalty or they would be doing that already.

Well I guess you will see how much they want to lower the fees as it looks like we wont have any american visitors again for the most part of this season so lets see how the big hitters adjust the green fees.

Would be interesting to see what and if any deals are on the table.
		
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I'll be keeping an eye on this. 

Hoping that an impromptu visit to Scotland this summer may happen 🤞🏻🤞🏻


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I dont think you can compare a football club with a golf club as most top top courses are owned by members and why would they want to discount something that they can sell for full price, they are not interested in any UK loyalty or they would be doing that already.

Well I guess you will see how much they want to lower the fees as it looks like we wont have any american visitors again for the most part of this season so lets see how the big hitters adjust the green fees.

Would be interesting to see what and if any deals are on the table.
		
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Semantics.

Pressure was brought to bear on premiership clubs and they relented.

Pressure was brought to bear on Muirfield because they didnt allow women as members, they relented.

if the R and A and England / Scotland / Wales / GUI brought pressure to bear, and allied it to being kept on the open rota or not, I'm sure it would make a difference.

I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon, but it's surprising what can happen once a momentum of support builds.

Separately, you just can't help yourself can you..........


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			You can't compare visiting golfers with football fans.

The latter are committed to one team and if they can't afford to watch their team, either at home or  away, they will not go to watch one of their rivals.

Therefore  it is not truly a market.

Golfers are, in that respect,  different. If they can't afford say Muirfield then they will  often compromise and visit Gullane for example.

If I was a member of one of the clubs charging these very high fees I would not want to see the green fee reduced if it was going to result in a fall in the club's income as the members would be those expected to cover that shortfall.

Also if the reduction was to lead to an increase in visitors I would not be happy if that then reduced my access to start times.

If the Club felt that they needed to greatly increase the number of visitors then the Committee will have a tough task in selling that to their members.
		
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Why not, if people are saying that these places are just businesses, arent both just customer's then.

There are differences, no doubt, and I get the loyalty thing but if the popular premiership clubs raised the prices that much (lets say to £ 200.00 a ticket) and got rid of season ticket holders and replaced them by 90% tourists do you think it would be willingly accepted in the UK?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Why not, if people are saying that these places are just businesses, arent both just customer's then.

There are differences, no doubt, and I get the loyalty thing but if the popular premiership clubs raised the prices that much (lets say to £ 200.00 a ticket) and got rid of season ticket holders and replaced them by 90% tourists do you think it would be willingly accepted in the UK?
		
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I am more interested in why you think that the members of these clubs should subsidise casual visitors. 

As to football tickets and the pricing structure,  that is up to the individual club to decide what balance they require. 

After all they have the rather substantial cushion of television money to fall back on.


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## howbow88 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Semantics.

Pressure was brought to bear on premiership clubs and they relented.

Pressure was brought to bear on Muirfield because they didnt allow women as members, they relented.

if the R and A and England / Scotland / Wales / GUI brought pressure to bear, and allied it to being kept on the open rota or not, I'm sure it would make a difference.

I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon, but it's surprising what can happen once a momentum of support builds.

Separately, you just can't help yourself can you.......... 

Click to expand...

Just a quick point on the PL clubs accepting this though:

Most clubs were charging about £35-40 for away adult tickets. Once the £30 rule came in, plenty of clubs completely did away with OAP, student and kids discounted tickets. So in some cases, a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 kids) actually ended up paying more than before the rule came in. 

The PL also used to give each club £50k a year to spend on away fans. Some clubs used this to subsidise coach travel for their fans, some used it to enhance the away facilities in their own ground. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that when the £30 rule came in, the clubs ended up just pocketing the £50k payment... 

The point I'm getting at is that financially, I don't think PL clubs are much worse off than they were before the £30 away ticket was introduced. And even if they are, it is a drop in the ocean for them. 

So I am with you and I would love to see something similar like this for golf, but I think it is a very different ball game to the PL. A better argument for me is the previously mentioned Orange County National, near Orlando. They give 3 rates - Orlando residents, Florida residents, everyone else. 

It would be great to see some clubs do similar to that, but I don't see it happening sadly.


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

Lowering the cost of the top courses to let more folk on because they don’t fancy paying for the privilege is deluded. 

They can charge what they like and I am sure they review the income received v the impact on course/membership etc

They look after their members first and foremost.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Semantics.

Pressure was brought to bear on premiership clubs and they relented.

Pressure was brought to bear on Muirfield because they didnt allow women as members, they relented.

if the R and A and England / Scotland / Wales / GUI brought pressure to bear, and allied it to being kept on the open rota or not, I'm sure it would make a difference.

I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon, but it's surprising what can happen once a momentum of support builds.

Separately, you just can't help yourself can you.......... 

Click to expand...

You will never gain that momentum of support since there are not that many UK golfers willing to pay even your suggested fee of £150.

Nor would the governing bodies wish to become involved in  an issue  way outside their remit.

The top clubs also have some top members who would be  quite prepared to fund legal action to fight what would quite rightly be seen as outrageous interference in the running of their clubs.

Non-members have no right or entitlement to access these courses whether from Birmingham,  Alabama or Birmingham, England. 

In what way have any of us contributed to the establishment and upkeep of these courses, such that we should,  in some way, be rewarded?

Where is any line to be drawn with subsidising locals? Should the practice only apply to green fees or should it extend to all goods and services?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I am more interested in why you think that the members of these clubs should subsidise casual visitors.

As to football tickets and the pricing structure,  that is up to the individual club to decide what balance they require.

After all they have the rather substantial cushion of television money to fall back on.
		
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Lets face it, its probably the other way around. A lot of top clubs  outside of the South west are only marginally higher subs than clubs that are say top 100-200.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Just a quick point on the PL clubs accepting this though:

Most clubs were charging about £35-40 for away adult tickets. Once the £30 rule came in, plenty of clubs completely did away with OAP, student and kids discounted tickets. So in some cases, a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 kids) actually ended up paying more than before the rule came in.

The PL also used to give each club £50k a year to spend on away fans. Some clubs used this to subsidise coach travel for their fans, some used it to enhance the away facilities in their own ground. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that when the £30 rule came in, the clubs ended up just pocketing the £50k payment...

The point I'm getting at is that financially, I don't think PL clubs are much worse off than they were before the £30 away ticket was introduced. And even if they are, it is a drop in the ocean for them.

So I am with you and I would love to see something similar like this for golf, but I think it is a very different ball game to the PL. A better argument for me is the previously mentioned Orange County National, near Orlando. They give 3 rates - Orlando residents, Florida residents, everyone else.

It would be great to see some clubs do similar to that, but I don't see it happening sadly.
		
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I'd say that some of that was correct but some wasnt, although i stopped going "away" about 5 years ago. if the clubs min-managed it, bad form.

I remember West Brom charging £18 on year, went down come up again within a few years then up to £50. Birmingham was another, i was made up they went down, their prices doubled for away fans in about 3-4 years.

Agree on the Florida option.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Lowering the cost of the top courses to let more folk on because they don’t fancy paying for the privilege is deluded.

They can charge what they like and I am sure they review the income received v the impact on course/membership etc

They look after their members first and foremost.
		
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Some of these "top" courses do not have or have very few members.
e.g. Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Lowering the cost of the top courses to let more folk on because they don’t fancy paying for the privilege is deluded.

They can charge what they like and I am sure they review the income received v the impact on course/membership etc

They look after their members first and foremost.
		
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Im sure this has been posted on this thread alone about 40 times, it doesnt need to repeated.

I know what they are doing, just dont agree with the levels of "inflation".


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			You will never gain that momentum of support since there are not that many UK golfers willing to pay even your suggested fee of £150.

Nor would the governing bodies wish to become involved in  an issue  way outside their remit.

The top clubs also have some top members who would be  quite prepared to fund legal action to fight what would quite rightly be seen as outrageous interference in the running of their clubs.

Non-members have no right or entitlement to access these courses whether from Birmingham,  Alabama or Birmingham, England.

In what way have any of us contributed to the establishment and upkeep of these courses, such that we should,  in some way, be rewarded?

Where is any line to be drawn with subsidising locals? Should the practice only apply to green fees or should it extend to all goods and services?
		
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I wouldnt expect it to gain a large level of support when so many golfers say "well its market related", up to the clubs and other such apologist behaviour.

Did Muirfield fund legal action when pressure was brought to bear over women members?

No one has said they anyone should have a "right", so a moot point.

As Ive said, people keep coming back with the same arguments, which has been done before in all walks of life. I'm sure Britain saying the slave trade should be banned, premiership clubs away prices, apartheid and equal rights for women had loads of "deluded" people amongst their number and were scolded by "apologists", it doesnt mean to say that they werent successful.

I can understand a "premium rate" for a premium course, and only so many visitor tee times being available, but where does it end? Will you be saying that when its £1,000 for a round in 5 years time?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I wouldnt expect it to gain a large level of support when so many golfers say "well its market related", up to the clubs and other such apologist behaviour.

Did Muirfield fund legal action when pressure was brought to bear over women members?

No one has said they anyone should have a "right", so a moot point.

As Ive said, people keep coming back with the same arguments, which has been done before in all walks of life. I'm sure Britain saying the slave trade should be banned, premiership clubs away prices, apartheid and equal rights for women had loads of "deluded" people amongst their number and were scolded by "apologists", it doesnt mean to say that they werent successful.

I can understand a "premium rate" for a premium course, and only so many visitor tee times being available, but where does it end? Will you be saying that when its £1,000 for a round in 5 years time?
		
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One of the more ludicrous posts that I have ever read.

To compare human rights issues such as racial and sexual discrimination, slavery and others with green fees and football ticket pricing beggars belief.

A more appropriate analogy would be  dress codes and green fees.

We accept that clubs are allowed to insist upon certain standards of dress to obtain access to their course and the same is true for the cost of that access. 

We don't have to agree with them but as I and others have said; "Their club, their rules."


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## USER1999 (Feb 17, 2021)

One thing that does tee me off, after paying a boat load of cash to play, is being a 2nd class citizen. Visitors car park, visitors locker room, visitors bar, you play off that tee, you can't wear those clothes (I have been with a guy from my club who was asked to leave because his clothes, which met the dress code, were not deemed suitable), etc.

My favourite was, the coach driver can't play. Even if he parks the coach in the lay by down the road, and comes back, nope, he can't play, he is the coach driver. Cue 42 refunds.


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## Sports_Fanatic (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I am more interested in why you think that the members of these clubs should subsidise casual visitors.

As to football tickets and the pricing structure,  that is up to the individual club to decide what balance they require.

After all they have the rather substantial cushion of television money to fall back on.
		
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For those those on the Open rota, then is it members subsidising visitors? Presumably clubs make a reasonable income from hosting the Open and also the impact of visitors wanting to play and rates. There is an argument that if they are going to benefit from that then they should in turn be putting value back into golf for the home nations which could be in the form of reduced rates on certain days for example.

For those not on it, then I agree they can go by supply and demand rules even if that means huge green fee prices although I wonder if that is within the spirit of golf being a social sport for all.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			One thing that does tee me off, after paying a boat load of cash to play, is being a 2nd class citizen. Visitors car park, visitors locker room, visitors bar, you play off that tee, you can't wear those clothes (I have been with a guy from my club who was asked to leave because his clothes, which met the dress code, were not deemed suitable), etc.

My favourite was, the coach driver can't play. Even if he parks the coach in the lay by down the road, and comes back, nope, he can't play, he is the coach driver. Cue 42 refunds.
		
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 I'm sure someone will along shortly to say "their club, their rules" 

Bus driver makes me laugh, he could be a county standard golfer for all they know, yet not the "right short of chap".


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## D-S (Feb 17, 2021)

We are lucky in the UK to be able to play the Open rota and historic courses. In many parts of the world their top courses are Private Country Clubs and never allow any non member introduced visitors at all. They charge what the market can afford - whether you think this is value for your money is a purely personal decision. I believe that the Savoy is a historical monument and part of the fabric of London life but I think it would be foolish to ask for a discount for a night's stay because I am a UK resident.


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			Some of these "top" courses do not have or have very few members.
e.g. Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart.
		
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And in those instances they are there to make money. Luckily for them they all have a product which they can charge a massive premium for and we have no say in that.


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## sunshine (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I think most POV have been said on this subject now, but for the people who said that it would be "impossible" for some of the clubs to agree to a GB & I or national rate, consider what the premiership clubs did for away fans a few years ago.

After a few years "campaigning" the fans finally got the premiership clubs as a whole to introduce the "twenty is plenty" rate for away fans. This was always mooted as turkeys voting for Xmas, but it worked.

£150 is plenty?
		
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Unfortunately this is not a valid comparison.

Premier league clubs need fans because the atmosphere enhances "the product". The gate receipts are now less important than the global tv revenue, so capping ticket prices is a small price to pay if it leads to more crowd noise and a more passionate atmosphere. It's well accepted that the "expensive seats" make less noise.

For a golf club it's irrelevant. In fact they are less likely to want the atmosphere generated by "noisy plebs" on the course.


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Im sure this has been posted on this thread alone about 40 times, it doesnt need to repeated.

I know what they are doing, just dont agree with the levels of "inflation".
		
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Inflation means rock all in this context. We’re not buying milk or bread.


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## Papas1982 (Feb 17, 2021)

I think it was mentioned earlier about the knock on of lower prices to the next tier of clubs.
I think it can go both ways.

If top clubs go up, mid level chase that lower end. My place is due to be £120 in the summer (other than the Week of the open £££) I believe. Still less than its neighbours by some margin. I would say it’s well above mid level, but still not the sort of course that currently people have on a bucket list. 

The problem now (certainly last summer after lockdown) is that distinctly average courses were charging north of £40 for a midweek twilight round. im all for paying a premium for a top course. It’s a luxury after all. People pay more for a nice car, meal etc. I am however struggling to justify £200 for a round unless I can find some good deals on local courses to make it a longer break.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			I think it was mentioned earlier about the knock on of lower prices to the next tier of clubs.
I think it can go both ways.

If top clubs go up, mid level chase that lower end. My place is due to be £120 in the summer (other than the Week of the open £££) I believe. Still less than its neighbours by some margin. I would say it’s well above mid level, but still not the sort of course that currently people have on a bucket list.

The problem now (certainly last summer after lockdown) is that distinctly average courses were charging north of £40 for a midweek twilight round. im all for paying a premium for a top course. It’s a luxury after all. People pay more for a nice car, meal etc. I am however struggling to justify £200 for a round unless I can find some good deals on local courses to make it a longer break.
		
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And at the same time the R and A, England golf will talk about growing the game........


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			And at the same time the R and A, England golf will talk about growing the game........
		
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Plenty of reasonably priced courses which everyone can play and the game can grow.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			One of the more ludicrous posts that I have ever read.

To compare human rights issues such as racial and sexual discrimination, slavery and others with green fees and football ticket pricing beggars belief.

A more appropriate analogy would be  dress codes and green fees.

We accept that clubs are allowed to insist upon certain standards of dress to obtain access to their course and the same is true for the cost of that access.

We don't have to agree with them but as I and others have said; "Their club, their rules."
		
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Good, at least it sticks out.

The point, which you have obviously missed, is that many bigger subjects / arguments  have been overcome eben though they werent given a cat in hells chance.

Ok dress codes - I know a local top 100 course that now allows jeans. You would have been called mad if you would have pushed for that 20 years ago. Times change.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			For those those on the Open rota, then is it members subsidising visitors? Presumably clubs make a reasonable income from hosting the Open and also the impact of visitors wanting to play and rates. There is an argument that if they are going to benefit from that then they should in turn be putting value back into golf for the home nations which could be in the form of reduced rates on certain days for example.

For those not on it, then I agree they can go by supply and demand rules even if that means huge green fee prices although I wonder if that is within the spirit of golf being a social sport for all.
		
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Bang on.

Welcome to the 15O something open at *******, tickets now over £100, then come back in a few months after we have put the prices up 30% as we are the latest club to hold it.

Thank you Mr British golfer, in a long line of 150 years  supporters who have made this great game what it is, which we have exported all over the world, supported by the highest attendances by British golf fans for over 150 years.

Yeah right.

Doff my cap and tug my forelock.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

D-S said:



			We are lucky in the UK to be able to play the Open rota and historic courses. In many parts of the world their top courses are Private Country Clubs and never allow any non member introduced visitors at all. They charge what the market can afford - whether you think this is value for your money is a purely personal decision. I believe that the Savoy is a historical monument and part of the fabric of London life but I think it would be foolish to ask for a discount for a night's stay because I am a UK resident.
		
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This thread comes down to you can't use any other analogy if your in favour of discounts, but you can use any other analogy if you arent, it seems.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Plenty of reasonably priced courses which everyone can play and the game can grow.
		
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So grow, but know your place when it comes to a certain level?


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## DRW (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Inflation means rock all in this context. We’re not buying milk or bread.
		
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You are looking at a luxury, low number, restricted, 'unique' product and therefore normal inflation figure can become irrelevant, if the demand exists.

I think the clubs are learning from each other and just keep rising their prices, to see where they goto, £300+ a round is now getting closer at top clubs with some already there. then more is spent on the course, to get it in better condition, it gets listed higher in the rankings and further from the other mid clubs and so it goes on.

Muirfields full rate has gone 250 to 285 in last two years(the foursome afternoon round increased quite alot). The march shows no stopping. Amazing how high they are going.

Wonder what they will be in five years....especially when the pent up demand of tourism comes back


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

DRW said:



			You are looking at a luxury, low number, restricted, 'unique' product and therefore normal inflation figure can become irrelevant, if the demand exists.

I think the clubs are learning from each other and just keep rising their prices, to see where they goto, £300+ a round is now getting closer at top clubs with some already there. then more is spent on the course, to get it in better condition, it gets listed higher in the rankings and further from the other mid clubs and so it goes on.

Muirfields full rate has gone 250 to 285 in last two years(an foursome afternoon round increased quite alot). The march shows no stopping. Amazing how high they are going.

Wonder what they will be in five years....especially more when the pent up demand of tourism comes back
		
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Correct, Its straight up supply and demand. There is more than enough demand at the current pricing. Why would they go the other way if this is the case? If I was in their shoes I would be maximising the earnigs for the club and making further improvements to the course and facilities.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Good, at least it sticks out.

The point, which you have obviously missed, is that many bigger subjects / arguments  have been overcome eben though they werent given a cat in hells chance.

Ok dress codes - I know a local top 100 course that now allows jeans. You would have been called mad if you would have pushed for that 20 years ago. Times change.
		
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True, but that change is primarily for the benefit of members and has no cost implications to them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Bang on.

Welcome to the 15O something open at *******, tickets now over £100, then come back in a few months after we have put the prices up 30% as we are the latest club to hold it.

Thank you Mr British golfer, in a long line of 150 years  supporters who have made this great game what it is, which we have exported all over the world, supported by the highest attendances by British golf fans for over 150 years.

Yeah right.

Doff my cap and tug my forelock.
		
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Based upon the relative standings of golf here and in the USA using your argument a case could be made for subsidising the American visitors rather than the home players.

Troon, Sandwich, Muirfield et al . I really cannot see how I or any other British golfer is owed anything by them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			And at the same time the R and A, England golf will talk about growing the game........
		
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But how exactly is going to "grow" the game if these green fees were reduced. 

Newcomers aren't suddenly going to be playing Open venues so any reduction is  only likely to benefit existing golfers.


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## sunshine (Feb 17, 2021)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			Presumably clubs make a reasonable income from hosting the Open and also the impact of visitors wanting to play and rates. There is an argument that if they are going to benefit from that then they should in turn be putting value back into golf for the home nations which could be in the form of reduced rates on certain days for example.

For those not on it, then I agree they can go by supply and demand rules even if that means huge green fee prices although *I wonder if that is within the spirit of golf being a social sport for all.*

Click to expand...

You make a good point about the R&A potentially asking hosts of the Open to give something back to golf. The idea that they have to demonstrate a legacy of the event (e.g. free coaching for kids).

I'm left scratching my head at the bit I've highlighted about golf being a sport for all. Across the world golf is viewed as an elitist sport for a wealthy minority. Maybe in Scotland it's a bit more egalitarian, but that's one small country.


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## DRW (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Correct, Its straight up supply and demand. There is more than enough demand at the current pricing. Why would they go the other way if this is the case? If I was in their shoes I would be maximising the earnigs for the club and making further improvements to the course and facilities.
		
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Sadly have to agree, wish it wasn't true. I'm with LB and would love to think R&A or like, would help out, but if they did like Scot golf, the amounts of tee times available offered to 'locals' at lower rates would be very limited numbered, so doesn't really change alot. 

If you live in the UK you will have to suck it up, that the winter time rates are the reduced fees, if you want to play there at lower rates.

Or wait for the next LQ/yours trip


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## sunshine (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Ok dress codes - I know a local top 100 course that now allows jeans. You would have been called mad if you would have pushed for that 20 years ago. Times change.
		
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Sorry, but again you make a point which is not valid.

If a private course decides to allow jeans, this is to meet the wishes of its members. It's not the result of some campaign by visiting golfers wanting to wear jeans.


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## Captainron (Feb 17, 2021)

DRW said:



			Sadly have to agree, wish it wasn't true. I'm with LB and would love to think R&A or like, would help out, but if they did like Scot golf, the amounts of tee times available offered to 'locals' at lower rates would be very limited numbered, so doesn't really change alot.

If you live in the UK you will have to suck it up, that the winter time rates are the reduced fees, if you want to play there at lower rates.

Or wait for the next LQ/yours trip

Click to expand...

Correct. Without these exorbitant prices, we couldn’t bring value to the masses....


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## IanM (Feb 17, 2021)

Where couldn't the coach driver play?  Would like to know that 

My club fluctuates green fee charges to control traffic.  That's the primary consideration in the change.  If folk are discouraged or encouraged to visit by the price,  that's the idea!!


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## D-S (Feb 17, 2021)

I think if our club had the opportunity to increase visitor green fees by the same % that these top clubs have over the past 20 years and maintain the same amount of visitors we certainly would have done. The additional revenue would be either reinvested in the course and club facilities or used to subsidise membership fees. If, in turn,  members of other clubs complained and said there should be reductions for some from the local area I don’t think we would rush to do so.


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## Zig (Feb 17, 2021)

Lots of back and forth here about reduced fees vs member clubs rights to charge what they want. Fair enough on both. So:

The R&A are deciding which course gets the next Open Championship. The discussion could simply go: in order to benefit from the untold riches hosting the Open brings your club, we ask that you offer a reduced national rate, and GB&I rate, both a specific percentage of the full price green fee, for the next three years. Could be as few as two four balls per day. 

Everyone wins... 
the club from the income hosting The Open brings, 
local visitors and GB&I golfers win - they get to take part in the 'heritage' of the competition, playing at a place they've probably watched their heroes play,
the R&A win - their already awesome 'product' further promotes accessibility into some of our greatest/most storied golf courses.

For those outside of the Open rota - the Kingsbarns of this world, charge what you like. And if ever you want to be on the rota, then the rules above apply. 

What's not to like?


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## davidy233 (Feb 17, 2021)

Zig said:



			Lots of back and forth here about reduced fees vs member clubs rights to charge what they want. Fair enough on both. So:

The R&A are deciding which course gets the next Open Championship. The discussion could simply go: in order to benefit from the untold riches hosting the Open brings your club, we ask that you offer a reduced national rate, and GB&I rate, both a specific percentage of the full price green fee, for the next three years. Could be as few as two four balls per day.

Everyone wins...
the club from the income hosting The Open brings,
local visitors and GB&I golfers win - they get to take part in the 'heritage' of the competition, playing at a place they've probably watched their heroes play,
the R&A win - their already awesome 'product' further promotes accessibility into some of our greatest/most storied golf courses.

For those outside of the Open rota - the Kingsbarns of this world, charge what you like. And if ever you want to be on the rota, then the rules above apply.

What's not to like?
		
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Needs a petition IMO


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			On the course, whilst playing??
Where's that?
		
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In the clubhouse.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Zig said:



			Lots of back and forth here about reduced fees vs member clubs rights to charge what they want. Fair enough on both. So:

The R&A are deciding which course gets the next Open Championship. The discussion could simply go: in order to benefit from the untold riches hosting the Open brings your club, we ask that you offer a reduced national rate, and GB&I rate, both a specific percentage of the full price green fee, for the next three years. Could be as few as two four balls per day.

Everyone wins...
the club from the income hosting The Open brings,
local visitors and GB&I golfers win - they get to take part in the 'heritage' of the competition, playing at a place they've probably watched their heroes play,
the R&A win - their already awesome 'product' further promotes accessibility into some of our greatest/most storied golf courses.

For those outside of the Open rota - the Kingsbarns of this world, charge what you like. And if ever you want to be on the rota, then the rules above apply.

What's not to like?
		
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Beautifully put, sir.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			True, but that change is primarily for the benefit of members and has no cost implications to them.
		
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Is it always members that drive change from an altruistic POV, or do they sometimes react to outside social pressures?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Based upon the relative standings of golf here and in the USA using your argument a case could be made for subsidising the American visitors rather than the home players.

Troon, Sandwich, Muirfield et al . I really cannot see how I or any other British golfer is owed anything by them.
		
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My god, I've said it about 5 times now - the exclusivity of these course have been mainly built up being on the open rota and green fees by British golfers for most of their existence.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

sunshine said:



			Sorry, but again you make a point which is not valid.

If a private course decides to allow jeans, this is to meet the wishes of its members. It's not the result of some campaign by visiting golfers wanting to wear jeans.
		
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I didnt say it was.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Zig said:



			Lots of back and forth here about reduced fees vs member clubs rights to charge what they want. Fair enough on both. So:

The R&A are deciding which course gets the next Open Championship. The discussion could simply go: in order to benefit from the untold riches hosting the Open brings your club, we ask that you offer a reduced national rate, and GB&I rate, both a specific percentage of the full price green fee, for the next three years. Could be as few as two four balls per day.

Everyone wins...
the club from the income hosting The Open brings,
local visitors and GB&I golfers win - they get to take part in the 'heritage' of the competition, playing at a place they've probably watched their heroes play,
the R&A win - their already awesome 'product' further promotes accessibility into some of our greatest/most storied golf courses.

For those outside of the Open rota - the Kingsbarns of this world, charge what you like. And if ever you want to be on the rota, then the rules above apply.

What's not to like?
		
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Might have to miss out on some then.

Acquaintances of mine have suggested that they would be delighted if their Club was to never again host the Open.

In their view and, apparently, a good many others the disruption to the  Club and its members far outweighs any possible benefits.

In any event 10 of the 19 courses listed in the OP are not on the Open rota so those that are might feel a little victimised.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			My god, I've said it about 5 times now - the exclusivity of these course have been mainly built up being on the open rota and green fees by British golfers for most of their existence.
		
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Just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it is correct. 

The American golf tourist is not a new phenomenon. 

Also why should the current generation be rewarded for the actions of a relatively small number of their predecessors?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it is correct.

The American golf tourist is not a new phenomenon.

Also why should the current generation be rewarded for the actions of a relatively small number of their predecessors?
		
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I cant be arsed going round and round in circles any more unless anyone has something new to say.

Overall, if you are happy for it to potentially extend to the whole sporting / cultural / entertainment in this country where we are a playground for tourists and rich people only when it comes to access and tickets for the FA cup final, Lords, Wimbledon, West end theatres, Premiership football, pop concerts and great courses thats up to you. Its a whole cultural thing built up over many years that is getting less accessible to your average bloke, and a lot is down to currency exchange rates. I'm a bit more altruistic than that and doing think that money should trump everything. Sadly there are more and more people nowadays who do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I cant be arsed going round and round in circles any more unless anyone has something new to say.

Overall, if you are happy for it to potentially extend to the whole sporting / cultural / entertainment in this country where we are a playground for tourists and rich people only when it comes to access and tickets for the FA cup final, Lords, Wimbledon, West end theatres, Premiership football, pop concerts and great courses thats up to you. Its a whole cultural thing built up over many years that is getting less accessible to your average bloke, and a lot is down to currency exchange rates. I'm a bit more altruistic than that and doing think that money should trump everything. Sadly there are more and more people nowadays who do.
		
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Is there not a difference between the events you mention and golf for example 

Yes it’s hard and expensive to get tickets to events like FA Cup , Wimbledon, Prem etc 

it’s not the same with The Open for example - it’s not too and to get tickets

Also how much does it cost to play on Wembley , or Lords or Wimbledon or even play a match at Anfield? Can we the general public even do that ? Very much doubt it and if so it would be very expensive 

Where as in golf we can access pretty much 99% of the courses - we can play every single Open venue old and new if we want too. The price for 5 hours of being in the same clubhouse and on the same course as some of the worlds greatest is well within the reach of all golfers - even if you don’t want to pay the summer fees there are winter fees for people if they want to play.

It’s up to the clubs to set what fee they want - if people weren’t willing to pay it then they would soon realise and drop the prices but these Open venues are courses for the whole golfing world and that’s who they target , not just mr smith living down the road. If a course wants to offer local rates then crack on but no course should be forced to provide any local rate - they are private businesses at the end of the day and they will fund themselves for the good of their club.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			I cant be arsed going round and round in circles any more unless anyone has something new to say.

Overall, if you are happy for it to potentially extend to the whole sporting / cultural / entertainment in this country where we are a playground for tourists and rich people only when it comes to access and tickets for the FA cup final, Lords, Wimbledon, West end theatres, Premiership football, pop concerts and great courses thats up to you. Its a whole cultural thing built up over many years that is getting less accessible to your average bloke, and a lot is down to currency exchange rates. I'm a bit more altruistic than that and doing think that money should trump everything. Sadly there are more and more people nowadays who do.
		
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It's just the way of the world.

I would love an Aston Martin but I can't afford one. But I am not asking AM to reduce  the price to  a level I can afford.

One other point, if fees were reduced to say your suggestion of £150, what then for those that can't stretch to that figure?

Who determines a "fair price"?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there not a difference between the events you mention and golf for example

Yes it’s hard and expensive to get tickets to events like FA Cup , Wimbledon, Prem etc

it’s not the same with The Open for example - it’s not too and to get tickets

Also how much does it cost to play on Wembley , or Lords or Wimbledon or even play a match at Anfield? Can we the general public even do that ? Very much doubt it and if so it would be very expensive

Where as in golf we can access pretty much 99% of the courses - we can play every single Open venue old and new if we want too. The price for 5 hours of being in the same clubhouse and on the same course as some of the worlds greatest is well within the reach of all golfers - even if you don’t want to pay the summer fees there are winter fees for people if they want to play.

It’s up to the clubs to set what fee they want - if people weren’t willing to pay it then they would soon realise and drop the prices but these Open venues are courses for the whole golfing world and that’s who they target , not just mr smith living down the road. If a course wants to offer local rates then crack on but no course should be forced to provide any local rate - they are private businesses at the end of the day and they will fund themselves for the good of their club.
		
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6 paragraphs of opinions over the last 15 pages, nothing new to answer.


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			It's just the way of the world.

I would love an Aston Martin but I can't afford one. But I am not asking AM to reduce  the price to  alive I can afford.

One other point, if fees were reduced to say your suggestion of £150, what then for those that can't stretch to that figure?

Who determines a "fair pr"?
		
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It was a random example.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			It was a random example.
		
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I appreciate that  but my questions remain.

Who would set the fee and what of those who still found themselves priced out?

We can see from this forum that there is a very wide range of affordability levels.


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## KenL (Feb 17, 2021)

Captainron said:



			And in those instances they are there to make money. Luckily for them they all have a product which they can charge a massive premium for and we have no say in that.
		
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I think Trump Aberdeen has made a huge loss every year it has been open.
I bet plenty others are not making money even before 2020.


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## Zig (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Might have to miss out on some then.

Acquaintances of mine have suggested that they would be delighted if their Club was to never again host the Open.

In their view and, apparently, a good many others the disruption to the  Club and its members far outweighs any possible benefits.

In any event 10 of the 19 courses listed in the OP are not on the Open rota so those that are might feel a little victimised.
		
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Thanks for responding to my post. I get the feeling the thread has degenerated into a bit of a fight rather than pleasantly passing away a few minutes. I'll take your points one at a time in an effort to get things friendly and back on track. 

_Might have to miss out on some then._ Exactly. You make a point later about not everyone being able to afford an Aston Martin. Everyone's idea of what's value for money/affordable is their choice (and the club's setting the green fee).

_Acquaintances of mine have suggested that they would be delighted if their Club was to never again host the Open. In their view and, apparently, a good many others the disruption to the  Club and its members far outweighs any possible benefits._ I find this impossible to believe. Is there any evidence of clubs choosing 'not' to host the Open when offered? I get there may be one or two disgruntled members when the infrastructure has to go up, the work on the course in the year leading up to it etc. But it clearly doesn't outweigh the benefits, or the clubs wouldn't agree to host. Talk to anyone at Royal Portrush about the impact hosting the Open had there after the long period without.

_In any event 10 of the 19 courses listed in the OP are not on the Open rota so those that are might feel a little victimised. _Don't understand how they could feel 'victimised'. For what - the honour of hosting the Open? If you're 'gifted' the chance to host an Open, there are some strings attached, like the green fee idea I proposed. It'd be a small number of slots, for something like 3yrs.

I was simply trying to suggest a way Open courses could be more affordable, linked to them hosting the Open. The rest of the time, and for courses this doesn't apply to, can do what they're like. I'm very fortunate to have played the majority of courses on the list. I've paid green fees for each course I've played - I don't have a job or friends to get me on any of these for free. At some, I've paid the top price to play in the middle of summer (Royal Lytham for example). At others, I've tried to make it more affordable by taking advantage of their 'replay' or package offer (Kingsbarns, St Andrews, Carnoustie and Dornoch). Or played in 'shoulder season' (RCD, Royal Portrush, Turnberry).  And there are others where I've decided the green fee is too expensive to justify, eg Sunningdale. I'd love to play it, but understand it 'owes' me nothing, my loss. 

Whichever courses you chose to play - or not - enjoy it. Everyone's different. There's no right answer. Life's too short.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 17, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			6 paragraphs of opinions over the last 15 pages, nothing new to answer.

Click to expand...

Although getting Open tickets is not that easy......


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## SammmeBee (Feb 17, 2021)

KenL said:



			I think Trump Aberdeen has made a huge loss every year it has been open.
I bet plenty others are not making money even before 2020.
		
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How do the continue to exist then?


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I appreciate that  but my questions remain.

Who would set the fee and what of those who still found themselves priced out?

We can see from this forum that there is a very wide range of affordability levels.
		
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Mickie, I'm trying to get out of this thread, but I'm a polite guy and your a good egg, but stop asking me more questions!! 

I dont know mate index link it to the price of unicorn saddles and mig 18 acker macker valves.


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## IanM (Feb 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			How do the continue to exist then?
		
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Borrowing and funding from the rest of the Group.  Probably. Big asset..if wonky cash flow!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			How do the continue to exist then?
		
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According to a recent report by the BBC the Trump golf courses in Scotland are both loss makers.

I believe a similar situation is developing with the American courses.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			According to a recent report by the BBC the Trump golf courses in Scotland are both loss makers.

I believe a similar situation is developing with the American courses.
		
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Turnberry has been making a loss from day 1 of his ownership. Total losses of over £40 million. A whole episode around it on the McKellar podcast that is worth a listen.


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## evemccc (Feb 17, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Turnberry has been making a loss from day 1 of his ownership. Total losses of over £40 million. A whole episode around it on the McKellar podcast that is worth a listen.
		
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Thanks for the heads up. I haven't heard of this pod, but i have investigated and looks good


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## KenL (Feb 18, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			How do the continue to exist then?
		
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Perhaps because they are owned by billionaires?


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			I think Trump Aberdeen has made a huge loss every year it has been open.
I bet plenty others are not making money even before 2020.
		
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Castle Stuart also has made a loss since opening and is currently losing £1m a year


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## SammmeBee (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			Perhaps because they are owned by billionaires?
		
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And the problem with that is?


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## patricks148 (Feb 18, 2021)

IanM said:



			Borrowing and funding from the rest of the Group.  Probably. Big asset..if wonky cash flow!
		
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I'm looking forward to when the Russians want their money back


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## KenL (Feb 18, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			And the problem with that is?
		
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Eh? You asked how they were still open if making a loss. Billionaire owners can absorb losses.


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## sunshine (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			I think Trump Aberdeen has made a huge loss every year it has been open.
I bet plenty others are not making money even before 2020.
		
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I assume the owners expected it to make a loss for a good few years after opening. Takes time to build awareness and reputation, although by now they were probably hoping for break even at least. On the other hand, building a new course up in Aberdeen was always more of a vanity project to add prestige to the brand rather than generate profit.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			Eh? You asked how they were still open if making a loss. Billionaire owners can absorb losses.
		
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Only whilst the Banks continue to support him.

One side effect of losing the election is that his leading lender is alleged to be reconsidering their position.


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## KenL (Feb 18, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Only whilst the Banks continue to support him.

One side effect of losing the election is that his leading lender is alleged to be reconsidering their position.
		
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Not just trump. The likes of KB and CS are owned by rich american groups.

But, delighted that Trump may fall on hard times.


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## IanM (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			Not just trump. The likes of KB and CS are owned by rich american groups.

But, delighted that Trump may fall on hard times.
		
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He won't ever fall on hard times, but the folk relying on him for jobs will


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## KenL (Feb 18, 2021)

IanM said:



			He won't ever fall on hard times, but the folk relying on him for jobs will
		
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He will if he gets jailed.


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## IanM (Feb 18, 2021)

KenL said:



			He will if he gets jailed.
		
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in several senses of the word!


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## redbrownie (Feb 19, 2021)

The cost to play the top courses is absolutely shocking tbh. I was lucky enough to get a tee time on the Old Course in the summer (probably thanks only to COVID, bizarrely) and I did begrudgingly pay the fee just for the experience.

Can’t see myself paying that kind of money for a round of golf ever again.


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## Zig (Feb 20, 2021)

Bravo Prestwick... first one I've seen to offer reduced rates to local residents, and to UK visitors too! Will be adding it to the summer list for a visit! 


https://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/visitors/general-information/


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## davidy233 (Feb 20, 2021)

Traminator said:



			St Mellion have been doing reduced green fees for locals for a while:
		
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Lots of golf clubs do cut rate for locals - St Andrews, Carnoustie amongst them - I think his point is that they are doing cut price for tourists from anywhere in Britain too


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Lots of golf clubs do cut rate for locals - St Andrews, Carnoustie amongst them - I think his point is that they are doing cut price for tourists from anywhere in Britain too
		
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Local rates seem to be far more common in Scotland and Ireland than they are in England though. Not sure about Wales.


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## D-S (Feb 21, 2021)

The County card scheme is a great ‘rates for locals‘ scheme. We always use this rate for away days and overnighters. If we paid the rack rate (the only one available for overseas visitors) I am sure we would do far fewer.


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2021)

Many courses,  especially in holiday areas are flexible with County Cards.  I've never paid full rate at St Mellion. 

Wales don't seem to have "local golfer " rates other than county cards... rates are more sensible here (generally) already


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## Crazyface (Feb 21, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			Lots of golf clubs do cut rate for locals - St Andrews, Carnoustie amongst them - I think his point is that they are doing cut price for tourists from anywhere in Britain too
		
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Really? Can you tell us how? I'd be really intersted in this.


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## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2021)

Eye watering prices but I wonder what it costs to produce a course and clubhouse to the level many of those venues put forward. Many of those courses have visitors 5-6-7 days a week, and on each day the courses are in amazing condition. If they weren't in excellent condition, social media would be awash with negative reviews.

How many extra staff does a top course need to maintain the fairways, rough, (extra)bunkers, greens and tees to the level they do on a daily basis? What does a premium clubhouse cost to run? How many house staff are employed at a top course? 10 staff on minimum wage, across greens and house comes in at £800 a day. What does a Head Greenkeeper, chef, head Pro, club manager and admin staff cost? £200k?

How many members do those clubs have, bearing in mind those members are probably paying an eye watering level of subs and expect good access? Would you pay £5k to be a member of a club with 700 members and which has a large number of visitors every week? Can you imagine being balloted out of playing because it has lots of members and visitors, and you've paid £5k for the privilege?

If a major refurb was required in the lounge/bar etc, it won't be cheap. Buying 1 top restaurant standard dining chair will cost way more than £50. 100 dining chairs at £150 each = £15,000. 25x tables at £300 = £7500. Than add in a carpet at around £50/sq.m. And you have 7 greens machines/tractors on a rolling replacement programme, replacing 1 a year. Rolling bunker refurbs... the list goes on.

Lots of questions to be considered before we can honestly say every top course is overpriced.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 21, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If a major refurb was required in the lounge/bar etc, it won't be cheap. Buying 1 top restaurant standard dining chair will cost way more than £50. 100 dining chairs at £150 each = £15,000. 25x tables at £300 = £7500. Than add in a carpet at around £50/sq.m.
		
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Spot on Brian. We are currently undertaking a clubhouse refurb, £90k allocated over 3 years for furniture, carpets, soft furnishings etc.


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## Boomy (Feb 21, 2021)

We had a trip to Turnberry in 2006. A round on the Kintyre on the Friday, overnight stay in the Turnberry 5 star hotel, bed and breakfast then a round on the Ailsa on the Saturday morning and if my memory serves me correctly we paid c£170. It was my birthday on the Saturday when we played the Ailsa and the lads organised an official from the club to announce me on the 1st tee, they presented me with a goody bag as well, fab experience. It would appear a similar trip would now cost £599 😱


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

Boomy said:



			We had a trip to Turnberry in 2006. A round on the Kintyre on the Friday, overnight stay in the Turnberry 5 star hotel, bed and breakfast then a round on the Ailsa on the Saturday morning and if my memory serves me correctly we paid c£170. It was my birthday on the Saturday when we played the Ailsa and the lads organised an official from the club to announce me on the 1st tee, they presented me with a goody bag as well, fab experience. It would appear a similar trip would now cost £599 😱
		
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That's just extortion. You hear people talk about how golf is inaccessible and stuff like this doesn't do much to counter that argument.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Feb 21, 2021)

Boomy said:



			We had a trip to Turnberry in 2006. A round on the Kintyre on the Friday, overnight stay in the Turnberry 5 star hotel, bed and breakfast then a round on the Ailsa on the Saturday morning and if my memory serves me correctly we paid c£170. It was my birthday on the Saturday when we played the Ailsa and the lads organised an official from the club to announce me on the 1st tee, they presented me with a goody bag as well, fab experience. It would appear a similar trip would now cost £599 😱
		
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What month did you go?

We had a forum trip there a couple of years ago in March. 

Played the Alisa and the Robert the Bruce course stayed over with breakfast for £199

Quality trip that was.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2021)

Boomy said:



			We had a trip to Turnberry in 2006. A round on the Kintyre on the Friday, overnight stay in the Turnberry 5 star hotel, bed and breakfast then a round on the Ailsa on the Saturday morning and if my memory serves me correctly we paid c£170. It was my birthday on the Saturday when we played the Ailsa and the lads organised an official from the club to announce me on the 1st tee, they presented me with a goody bag as well, fab experience. It would appear a similar trip would now cost £599 😱
		
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It depends on the time of year. I did a 1 night, 2 round stay at Turnberry in April 2018 and it cost around £250. If you go from june through to the end of September the rate for all of those prestige courses jump alarmingly. I also suspect the hotel has had a hefty refit since you were there and that has to be paid for. The hotel is genuinely 5 star in quality (forget the official star rating which can give average hotels 5 stars)

Saying that, £599 for 1 night, 2 rounds is a scary sum. Rich mans stuff.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			That's just extortion. You hear people talk about how golf is inaccessible and stuff like this doesn't do much to counter that argument.
		
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Perhaps we need to look at it in a different way. If you stayed in an elite hotel in London, Paris, Tokyo, New York etc what would you pay per night? It can be thousands of pounds. We accept that we can't stay there, they are for a rich elite. Perhaps summer golf at these venues just has to be viewed in the same way. At least we can play them at a more affordable level off peak. I'm not sure The Ritz or George V in Paris ever has off peak 😁


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Perhaps we need to look at it in a different way. If you stayed in an elite hotel in London, Paris, Tokyo, New York etc what would you pay per night? It can be thousands of pounds. We accept that we can't stay there, they are for a rich elite. Perhaps summer golf at these venues just has to be viewed in the same way. At least we can play them at a more affordable level off peak. I'm not sure The Ritz or George V in Paris ever has off peak 😁
		
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I'm mainly referring to just the golf to be honest, looking at the original post in this thread. The hotel part of it doesn't really bother me too much; you expect 5 star luxurious hotels to be extortionate as you say.


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## Boomy (Feb 21, 2021)

That trip was in the November, it was actually 2005 not 2006. The weather was unusually good for that time of year so we got to play off the fairways as well which was superb. 

The hotel really was due a refurbishment when we stayed there so it’s good to hear it has had it, and like you say I’d bet it is a proper, superb 5 star experience. None the less in 2005 it was fab to sit having breakfast overlooking the Ailsa ahead of playing it 😊

It was a fab trip, I’d love to do it again some time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			I'm mainly referring to just the golf to be honest, looking at the original post in this thread. The hotel part of it doesn't really bother me too much; you expect 5 star luxurious hotels to be extortionate as you say.
		
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I get your point, I'm suggesting looking at those golf courses in the same way as expensive hotels. I'd love to play them all, I'd like to stay in luxury, but sometimes you just have to accept that money takes over and those with big wallets win out.


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## Boomy (Feb 21, 2021)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			What month did you go?

We had a forum trip there a couple of years ago in March.

Played the Alisa and the Robert the Bruce course stayed over with breakfast for £199

Quality trip that was.
		
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That’s a fab price - just a couple of years ago as well? Was that due to booking a big group?


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get your point, I'm suggesting looking at those golf courses in the same way as expensive hotels. I'd love to play them all, I'd like to stay in luxury, but sometimes you just have to accept that money takes over and those with big wallets win out.
		
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Well in general, i'd much rather live in a world where inclusivity is at the core to be honest. We're talking about a round of golf here, not a trip to the moon.

It used to be expensive but affordable to play these courses, now it's just not affordable. I don't see how that's a good thing for the game.


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## Duckster (Feb 21, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Really? Can you tell us how? I'd be really intersted in this.
		
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Live there.
St Andrews links is (by parliament decree I think) owned by the people of St Andrews. So if you live there you are guaranteed to be able to get a links ticket dirt cheap. 

https://www.standrews.com/links-ticketholder


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

Yeah when I played the Old Course in August I had a caddy who was a local lad and he explained how it worked for them. I think that's a really good scheme to be honest. I'd like them to do something similar for UK residents (not to the same level) so that the expensive rounds are paid for by tourists, that would make most sense to me.


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2021)

Late 90s the Prince of Wales Hotel in Southport had a refurb and keen to drum up business.   I got 2 nights dinner,  bed and breakfast and 36 holes at Birkdale,  Hillside and Hesketh.....  all in £180!!  ( a party of 16) 

What would that be now??  Dread to think.  I'm pretty sure they'd cocked up as the green fees were about that on their own.

As a foot note, while I was there I negotiated a return the following year .  They agreed but I had to pay £200 and for that, we played S&A, Hoylake and Lytham!!!

We we returned,  they tried to say no dinners were included!! But I had it in writing.  Wish I could remember how much the price for year 3 was, suffice to say we didn't take it!

Happy days...


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## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			Well in general, i'd much rather live in a world where inclusivity is at the core to be honest. We're talking about a round of golf here, not a trip to the moon.

It used to be expensive but affordable to play these courses, now it's just not affordable. I don't see how that's a good thing for the game.
		
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Mmm, a really interesting point. I can't make my mind up on where I stand with this one. On the one hand I'd like to see the top amateurs have the opportunity to test themselves on the top courses - they probably can via some of the top amateur competitions. On the other hand I can't afford a Bentley or Aston Martin but I don't feel excluded.

Good point, though. How to grow the game... Mmm, thought provoking. Maybe 'x' many green fees are assigned to the Golf Unions for distribution...


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## SammmeBee (Feb 21, 2021)

Don’t most of the better courses offer the Unions tee times for matches and their county competitions.....??


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			Well in general, i'd much rather live in a world where inclusivity is at the core to be honest. We're talking about a round of golf here, not a trip to the moon.

It used to be expensive but affordable to play these courses, now it's just not affordable. I don't see how that's a good thing for the game.
		
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Part of me agrees but it isn't as though we don't have alternatives. We have thousands of courses to choose from in the UK and the fact that 10-20 are premium doesn't prevent us from playing the others. If all courses were that expensive then the game would be in real trouble but it really is a very small minority. 

It's an interesting talking point 👍


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## patricks148 (Feb 21, 2021)

Boomy said:



			That trip was in the November, it was actually 2005 not 2006. The weather was unusually good for that time of year so we got to play off the fairways as well which was superb.

The hotel really was due a refurbishment when we stayed there so it’s good to hear it has had it, and like you say I’d bet it is a proper, superb 5 star experience. None the less in 2005 it was fab to sit having breakfast overlooking the Ailsa ahead of playing it 😊

It was a fab trip, I’d love to do it again some time.
		
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i thinks its been gutted and done up twice since then, was done for the last open there and then when Trump bought it


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			Well in general, i'd much rather live in a world where inclusivity is at the core to be honest. We're talking about a round of golf here, not a trip to the moon.

It used to be expensive but affordable to play these courses, now it's just not affordable. I don't see how that's a good thing for the game.
		
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It's all  relative.

Green fees at the top courses never have been affordable to all, it's just that  you considered them affordable to you. You no longer do.

Others still consider them in their range.


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			It's all  relative.

Green fees at the top courses never have been affordable to all, it's just that  you considered them affordable to you. You no longer do.

Others still consider them in their range.
		
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I’m not suggesting they should be affordable to _all, _i’m just bemoaning the fact that the price increase in the space of 20 years is 3 or 4 times the rate of inflation.

If that was the case for other non-essential things then we would be up in arms about it and rightly so.

I think it’s fair to expect a premium to pay a green fee on the top courses, but not when it ends up being the equivalent of 1/3 of a membership fee for a year at your local club. To me that’s absurd and it doesn’t help the game.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			I’m not suggesting they should be affordable to _all, _i’m just bemoaning the fact that the price increase in the space of 20 years is 3 or 4 times the rate of inflation.

If that was the case for other non-essential things then we would be up in arms about it and rightly so.

I think it’s fair to expect a premium to pay a green fee on the top courses, but not when it ends up being the equivalent of 1/3 of a membership fee for a year at your local club. To me that’s absurd and it doesn’t help the game.
		
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I am afraid I don't understand the argument about growing the game.

That will come about from more people, both young and old, taking up golf. 

They are not going to be dissuaded fromthat by the cost of playing courses that, at this stage,  many of them will not even have heard of and probably none of them would be ready for.

I rather suspect that it is only existing golfers that are concerned rather than any actual or potential newcomers.


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I am afraid I don't understand the argument about growing the game.

That will come about from more people, both young and old, taking up golf.

They are not going to be dissuaded fromthat by the cost of playing courses that, at this stage,  many of them will not even have heard of and probably none of them would be ready for.

I rather suspect that it is only existing golfers that are concerned rather than any actual or potential newcomers.
		
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I think it's both. I am very much the exception in my group of friends when it comes to golf, the general perception is that it's an exclusive sport and not accessible or welcoming to all. The cost of those top courses just adds to that overall perception.

You can disagree, that'e fine, but those opinions are out there and they're very prominent too.


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2021)

Yes, but those images of exclusivity are based on ignorance.

For every Queenwood, there are many many more public or inexpensive courses.  Most places Ive played are welcoming, can’t remember last time Ive had a bad experience.

I agree the rise in prices at top venues has been daft.  But folk must be paying in sufficient numbers or it would not have happened.   Theres still plenty of value to be had, although I suspect most of it is outside the south east or miles away from courses on the Open Rota.

My nearest city is Newport...you might point at it being £100 or so to play the 2010 Course, but there are 3 or 4 other courses with 3 miles that are cheaper than watching the local League 2 football team or the rugby team.

Is eating out exclusive and over priced?  As with golf, depends on where you go!


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## davidy233 (Feb 21, 2021)

Golf is/can be expensive.

One of the courses at my place is £95 for a round - lots of other posters courses will be in that ball park or more expensive

On this forum there's been discussions this week about joining clubs for '£2000 going rate' and that is by no means the most expensive membership sub I've seen quoted as a poster paying in the last couple of weeks.

Got to have this year's Galvin Green jackets at £400 plus.

People buy the latest drivers £499 is the first price google came up with for a TaylorMade Sim2 as an example - a grand for irons and hundreds for putters and wedges.

Don't see any 'for the working man' there

But you don't need to pay anything like that for golf stuff that maybe isn't quite as desirable but will do the job - if you want to have the best/most fashionable/name gear/membership then you either have the money or you save for it.

Nobody except locals has a need to have access at a cheap price to one of the big name courses (and the ones near me do cut price rates for those locals) - For the rest of us it's a treat, just as that new driver/putter/top end waterproof jacket is.


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

IanM said:



			Yes, but those images of exclusivity are based on ignorance.

For every Queenwood, there are many many more public or inexpensive courses.  Most places Ive played are welcoming, can’t remember last time Ive had a bad experience.

I agree the rise in prices at top venues has been daft.  But folk must be paying in sufficient numbers or it would not have happened.   Theres still plenty of value to be had, although I suspect most of it is outside the south east or miles away from courses on the Open Rota.

My nearest city is Newport...you might point at it being £100 or so to play the 2010 Course, but there are 3 or 4 other courses with 3 miles that are cheaper than watching the local League 2 football team or the rugby team.

Is eating out exclusive and over priced?  As with golf, depends on where you go!
		
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I don't think it is based on ignorance. You make fair points but i'm talking specifically about the issue raised in the first post of this thread. The prices used to be much more affordable than they are now, that's just a fact, and I think it's a real shame.

It's even worse in the US.


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## IanM (Feb 22, 2021)

I meant ignorance of the diversity of the cost of golf. 

But no argument from me about the dissapointing over acceleration of the cost of the top end.


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## evemccc (Mar 1, 2021)

Good to see Brora bringing in a UK residency Visitor level of pricing, and an International Visitor level of pricing..something that @Zig @Liverbirdie and others like myself called for.
In truth, it looks like the UK visitor rate hasn't come down, just an increase for visitors. But for me, if the club needs or wants increased revenue then this is the market to target for that.

Brora is a great links course, and a great welcoming club and pro


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## patricks148 (Mar 1, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Good to see Brora bringing in a UK residency Visitor level of pricing, and an International Visitor level of pricing..something that @Zig @Liverbirdie and others like myself called for.
In truth, it looks like the UK visitor rate hasn't come down, just an increase for visitors. But for me, if the club needs or wants increased revenue then this is the market to target for that.

Brora is a great links course, and a great welcoming club and pro
		
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quite a few clubs up here have a UK rate, we've had one for a couple of years i believe. i think Nairn Dunbar does also. We've also started doing a local rate for a 4 ball


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 1, 2021)

evemccc said:



			Good to see Brora bringing in a UK residency Visitor level of pricing, and an International Visitor level of pricing..something that @Zig @Liverbirdie and others like myself called for.
In truth, it looks like the UK visitor rate hasn't come down, just an increase for visitors. But for me, if the club needs or wants increased revenue then this is the market to target for that.

Brora is a great links course, and a great welcoming club and pro
		
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Gives us "deluded" gang hope. 

The cynic in me hopes that its still in place in a post-covid world in a year or two.


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## Zig (Mar 2, 2021)

Royal Liverpool the first one to offer 'Open Days' for 2021. £151 - not cheap but cheaper than playing the usual way. Here's hoping some of the other biggies offer similar!


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 2, 2021)

Zig said:



			Royal Liverpool the first one to offer 'Open Days' for 2021. £151 - not cheap but cheaper than playing the usual way. Here's hoping some of the other biggies offer similar!
		
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Where do you find this? Could only find their mixed foursome comp.


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## evemccc (Mar 2, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Where do you find this? Could only find their mixed foursome comp.
		
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it’s on their homepage
check under ‘News’


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Where do you find this? Could only find their mixed foursome comp.
		
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https://www.royal-liverpool-golf.com/new-royal-liverpool-golf-clubs-hoylake-open-days

It is the mixed ones but they can be any combination


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