# TROUBLE AT MILL !!bit long winded



## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.
		
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Shouldn't such a huge change to the club constitution not have to go before the AGM and get members approval?


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## Qwerty (May 19, 2015)

Have you currently got a waiting list?


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## pokerjoke (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.
		
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Why should someone get in quickly because they know someone and get preference
to join the said club.
You make it sound like you got to the front of the queue quicker leaving others that had waited longer on the list.


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## moogie (May 19, 2015)

You're right.....









It was long winded


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

This should be an interesting thread 

Couple of points 

1. If there was still interview process in place whose to say theses guys wouldn't have displayed perfect manners etc in the interview ?

2. How can members know how people will act based on their name on the board ? 

3. What does the difference in spreading the payments have in relation to people who have caused problems ? 

4. Is there not a chance that you could still have all the same entry process and the same incidents could still happen because society as whole has changed 

5. Is it not that your club could have suffered financially if the entry rules hadbt been relaxed 

6. Can you give your reasons why it's the entry method being at fault for the incidents ?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			Why should someone get in quickly because they know someone and get preference
to join the said club.
You make it sound like you got to the front of the queue quicker leaving others that had waited longer on the list.
		
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It does sound as though due process may have been observed but by queue jumping by knowing the right people the OP has also benefited and so it does seem sour grapes to a degree although I think we can all agree brawls and disruptive and drunken behaviour has no part in any clubhouse at any club


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.
		
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I feel your pain - note that though tradition can be discarded it is never lost.  The danger - for your club possibly - is that those that hold tradition dear - and will fight for it - might give up and depart.  And for a members club down that route is despair if not ruin.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

Our club has introduced. rescinded and introduced joining fees a few times over the last few years and it does leave a nasty taste to those that have paid. As far as I'm aware most have sucked it up or moved on in protest but no-one has ever mentioned legal action


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## GB72 (May 19, 2015)

As has been said before, I know plenty of people who scrub up well, can handle themselves at interview and could stump up the Â£1800 to join without breaking sweat but give them a couple of drinks with a similar group and the rugby songs and loud behaviour start. I also know some scruffy individuals without a bean who are immaculately behaved. All the club needs to do is issue warnings and either remove offenders with a pro rata refund or deny their membership next year


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This should be an interesting thread 

Couple of points 

1. If there was still interview process in place whose to say theses guys wouldn't have displayed perfect manners etc in the interview ?

2. How can members know how people will act based on their name on the board ? 

3. What does the difference in spreading the payments have in relation to people who have caused problems ? 

4. Is there not a chance that you could still have all the same entry process and the same incidents could still happen because society as whole has changed 

5. Is it not that your club could have suffered financially if the entry rules hadbt been relaxed 

6. Can you give your reasons why it's the entry method being at fault for the incidents ?
		
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if they had spent 30 mins being interviewed a better understanding of the type of person they were,rather than walking in with a deposit and filling a form in
they could well be know to members and not be suitable due to past actions
if they havnt got the money up front the insentive
 to join isnt the same as paying monthly 
but would be vetted so less chance
not really got a healthy membership prior and healthy bank account
because no one is vetting new members,and only paying a small deposit doesn't stop some less desirable people,if they had to cough up over 2k up front it would narrow down the undesirables


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## Berger (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.
		
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The simple answer to your question would appear to be that your club needs the money that new membership brings. I'd say it has very little to do with being seen as modern.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Berger said:



			The simple answer to your question would appear to be that your club needs the money that new membership brings. I'd say it has very little to do with being seen as modern.
		
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But it doesn't that's the point.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			if they had spent 30 mins being interviewed a better understanding of the type of person they were,rather than walking in with a deposit and filling a form in
		
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And in those 30 mins they could have acted like angels 




			they could well be know to members and not be suitable due to past actions
		
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What happens if no one knows them previously ?



			if they havnt got the money up front the incentive
 to join isnt the same as paying monthly
		
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But even someone who has a lot of money could cause just as much trouble - you seem to be assigning the bad behaviour to people with less income ? 



			but would be vetted so less chance
		
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Again vetted in 30 mins interview isn't really thorough is it 



			not really got a healthy membership prior and healthy bank account
because no one is vetting new members,and only paying a small deposit doesn't stop some less desirable people,if they had to cough up over 2k up front it would narrow down the undesirables
		
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So basically your attaching the undesirable tag to people with less money - 

Congrats on display everything that is wrong in regards members clubs and the attitude that puts people off joining members clubs


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			Have you currently got a waiting list?
		
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we did have till the flood gates opened.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And in those 30 mins they could have acted like angels 



What happens if no one knows them previously ?


But even someone who has a lot of money could cause just as much trouble - you seem to be assigning the bad behaviour to people with less income ? 


Again vetted in 30 mins interview isn't really thorough is it 


So basically your attaching the undesirable tag to people with less money - 

Congrats on display everything that is wrong in regards members clubs and the attitude that puts people off joining members clubs
		
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would you join a members club ?? if not why not.and why would people not join a members only club.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			we did have till the flood gates opened.
		
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Have you asked why. Seems like you club is looking for quick income


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

I am a member of a members club and have been since I took up golf


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I am a member of a members club and have been since I took up golf
		
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and how does your club opperate,do the members have a say or can any one join even those that are known to be trouble makers from other clubs.


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## chrisd (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			if they had spent 30 mins being interviewed a better understanding of the type of person they were,rather than walking in with a deposit and filling a form in
they could well be know to members and not be suitable due to past actions
if they havnt got the money up front the insentive
 to join isnt the same as paying monthly 
but would be vetted so less chance
not really got a healthy membership prior and healthy bank account
because no one is vetting new members,and only paying a small deposit doesn't stop some less desirable people,if they had to cough up over 2k up front it would narrow down the undesirables
		
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During my stint on the club committee I did loads of interviews and, quite honestly, they all could have been axe murderers for all the a 30 minute interview would reveal. Maybe the answer, in today's world, is to carry on as you do now, but only offer probationary membership for a period while you get to really know them


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2015)

If the club was foolish enough to not have appropriate sanctions for members who who betray the standards expected, then it serves them right!

And I'd be interested to know whereabouts the offensive members became drunk too!


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have you asked why. Seems like you club is looking for quick income
		
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it isnt a money thing,we have close to a million in the bank and a steady income,it was to make the club seem more modern as it had a more traditional feel ,but thats why most of the people joined prior to this.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			and how does your club opperate,do the members have a say or can any one join even those that are known to be trouble makers from other clubs.
		
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Anyone can join and not had any single issue since we stopped interviews etc but members have never had a say - did look at joining a club recently but walked away when they said my name goes on the board with my job and age 

Again it doesn't distract from your shocking generalisation towards the relationship between income and behaviour


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## Qwerty (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			i,if they had to cough up over 2k up front it would narrow down the undesirables
		
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Theres plenty of them in Wigan!!   ..Sorry Wolfie


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyone can join and not had any single issue since we stopped interviews etc but members have never had a say - did look at joining a club recently but walked away when they said my name goes on the board with my job and age 

Again it doesn't distract from your shocking generalisation towards the relationship between income and behaviour
		
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we are talking about golf clubs,the most snobish game in the world,hence every other post being about i have bigger better more expensive,the truth is if a scally hasnt got 2k to put upfront but the club down the road is only Â£150 he will choose the cheapest


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			Theres plenty of them in Wigan!!   ..Sorry Wolfie 

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i black balled him:lol:


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyone can join and not had any single issue since we stopped interviews etc but members have never had a say - did look at joining a club recently but walked away when they said my name goes on the board with my job and age 

Again it doesn't distract from your shocking generalisation towards the relationship between income and behaviour
		
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why did you walk away,have you something to hide or did you not wish to abide by the rules of the club.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			we are talking about golf clubs,the most snobish game in the world,hence every other post being about i have bigger better more expensive,the truth is if a scally hasnt got 2k to put upfront but the club down the road is only Â£150 he will choose the cheapest
		
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Again just because someone doesn't have the money to cough up a joining fee doesn't mean he is trouble - and being able to cough up the fee doesn't mean that you aren't going to cause trouble 

Most golf clubs and the sport itself is trying to move past the snobbish image and attitude - it seems it is alive and well within yourself


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 19, 2015)

Who is taking legal action?  Is it criminal or civil?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			why did you walk away,have you something to hide or did you not wish to abide by the rules of the club.
		
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I have nothing to hide and felt that it's not correct to be judged by what I write on a bit of paper - I was already looked down on by their lady captain because i was only a NCO in the military. 

They are struggling as a golf club and will hit financial trouble soon because of their attitude.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again just because someone doesn't have the money to cough up a joining fee doesn't mean he is trouble - and being able to cough up the fee doesn't mean that you aren't going to cause trouble 

Most golf clubs and the sport itself is trying to move past the snobbish image and attitude - it seems it is alive and well within yourself
		
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do you think you would get into the top 5 clubs in this country without having an interview?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

We are a members club and anything of this magnitude would need voting at the AGM. Seems a very strange affair. We have very informal interviews and never have any issues with "wrong 'uns" and if we did have any they would be dealt with swiftly under club rules and eventually processed out of the club


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have nothing to hide and felt that it's not correct to be judged by what I write on a bit of paper - I was already looked down on by their lady captain because i was only a NCO in the military. 

They are struggling as a golf club and will hit financial trouble soon because of their attitude.
		
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so you dont wished to be judged and have a chip on your shoulder,thats your problem not mine.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			do you think you would get into the top 5 clubs in this country without having an interview?
		
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I have no idea but that doesn't change your shocking attitude towards people who may not be as well off as some. 

And again anyone can act like an angel in an interview


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And in those 30 mins they could have acted like angels 

What happens if no one knows them previously ?


*But even someone who has a lot of money could cause just as much trouble - you seem to be assigning the bad behaviour to people with less income ? 
*

Again vetted in 30 mins interview isn't really thorough is it 


So basically your attaching the undesirable tag to people with less money - 

Congrats on display everything that is wrong in regards members clubs and the attitude that puts people off joining members clubs
		
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I can certainly relate to this! The most unruly member at a prestigious club I know had no problem fronting up with the very high (talking house deposit size!) joining fee required. I know another club where prospective members names are published and if a specific number of negative feedback replies (possibly even simply 1) is received, then the application is declined. 

@ the OP
Is the course that is having problems a 'Member Owned' course? Or simply a course owned by a Company/Person that customers/players are deemed 'Members of the Club'? There is a significant difference between the 2 imo!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			so you dont wished to be judged and have a chip on your shoulder,thats your problem not mine.
		
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I don't believe anyone should be judged as such and people should be looked at by their actions not by their wealth or job or age 

Certainly no chips on my shoulder


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We are a members club and anything of this magnitude would need voting at the AGM. Seems a very strange affair. We have very informal interviews and never have any issues with "wrong 'uns" and if we did have any they would be dealt with swiftly under club rules and eventually processed out of the club
		
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that is what is going to happen,cant say to much but positions have been vacated and an meeting to be held ,i know having made a phone call 5 mins ago some members have been suspended subject to said meeting.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

Anyone can behave at a golf club interview and to be honest at a lot of clubs these days it's a box ticking exercise and most simply go through the motions before getting the applicant to part with the cash, especially with a joining fee involved


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't believe anyone should be judged as such and people should be looked at by their actions not by their wealth or job or age 

Certainly no chips on my shoulder
		
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so if you knew someone was a bad one from personal knowledge and joined your club you would be ok with that,why did you care what that woman thought if you didnt have a chip on your shoulder,did you feel inferior,thats why you didnt join.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Anyone can behave at a golf club interview and to be honest at a lot of clubs these days it's a box ticking exercise and most simply go through the motions before getting the applicant to part with the cash, especially with a joining fee involved
		
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but that had never happened before,thats the point 99% of the membership did as i did its the new breed that seem to have no regards for the traditions of the game,to them its cheap golf and somewhere to get drunk.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			so if you knew someone was a bad one from personal knowledge and joined your club you would be ok with that,why did you care what that woman thought if you didnt have a chip on your shoulder,did you feel inferior,thats why you didnt join.
		
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What is a "bad one" 

I didn't join because it's not the sort of golf club that i would want to be a member of. In my eyes people earn elevated positions not believe they should be a given. People shouldn't judge others based on what job they do and how wealthy they are and that's exactly what that golf club does. 

I don't feel inferior or superior to anyone - I'm just me.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I can certainly relate to this! The most unruly member at a prestigious club I know had no problem fronting up with the very high (talking house deposit size!) joining fee required. I know another club where prospective members names are published and if a specific number of negative feedback replies (possibly even simply 1) is received, then the application is declined. 

@ the OP
Is the course that is having problems a 'Member Owned' course? Or simply a course owned by a Company/Person that customers/players are deemed 'Members of the Club'? There is a significant difference between the 2 imo!
		
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it is owned by the members not a company or single person.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			but that had never happened before,thats the point 99% of the membership did as i did its the new breed that seem to have no regards for the traditions of the game,to them its cheap golf and somewhere to get drunk.
		
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Surely your club has disciplinary processes in place and can get rid accordingly. How many are we talking about or is it the same ones all the time


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What is a "bad one" 

I didn't join because it's not the sort of golf club that i would want to be a member of. In my eyes people earn elevated positions not believe they should be a given. People shouldn't judge others based on what job they do and how wealthy they are and that's exactly what that golf club does. 

I don't feel inferior or superior to anyone - I'm just me.
		
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you seem to have a poor opinion of certain aspects of golf clubs,so you dont wish to be judged by others thats fine,but dont impose your thoughts onto me,i dont mind putting my name on a list for others to see,i would not hesitate in black balling someone i knew to be a bad un.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			you seem to have a poor opinion of certain aspects of golf clubs,so you dont wish to be judged by others thats fine,but dont impose your thoughts onto me,i dont mind putting my name on a list for others to see,i would not hesitate in black balling someone i knew to be a bad un.
		
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I have a poor opinion of snobbish attitudes within certain golf clubs that do nothing to improve the image of golf and members golf clubs 

You are displaying that attitude but suggesting that someone who can't afford a deposit up front is "a bad un" 

You seem to fail to grasp that money and an interview doesn't mean that a person isn't a "bad un"


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Surely your club has disciplinary processes in place and can get rid accordingly. How many are we talking about or is it the same ones all the time
		
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it is about 10 who came en-block from another club,they had a poor reputation there but spent a lot in the club house so were tolerated !!!,they came with the same attitude,and have brought a few more of their friends with them,it just seems to have spiralled with other new members thinking its the norm,from what i have heard it is all about to come into the open,what has been going on behind the scenes,pity because the social side of the club was really good,just takes a few rotten apples.


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have a poor opinion of snobbish attitudes within certain golf clubs that do nothing to improve the image of golf and members golf clubs 

You are displaying that attitude but suggesting that someone who can't afford a deposit up front is "a bad un" 

You seem to fail to grasp that money and an interview doesn't mean that a person isn't a "bad un"
		
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are you from the NORTH!! a bad un is someone you dont wish to be associated with a trouble maker,if you knew a new member was a thief would you say nothing to members in the changing rooms??


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			it is about 10 who came en-block from another club,they had a poor reputation there but spent a lot in the club house so were tolerated !!!,they came with the same attitude,and have brought a few more of their friends with them,it just seems to have spiralled with other new members thinking its the norm,from what i have heard it is all about to come into the open,what has been going on behind the scenes,pity because the social side of the club was really good,just takes a few rotten apples.
		
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We picked up loads of members from Laleham golf club a few years back. They were a little brash when they arrived, not drunk or unruly but just a little in your face and as if they'd been there years. They are now integrated and much calmer and some of the best laughs you can have. Have you actually asked the club why they took the decision in the first place


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			are you from the NORTH!! a bad un is someone you dont wish to be associated with a trouble maker,if you knew a new member was a thief would you say nothing to members in the changing rooms??
		
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You can post as many situations as you want - it doesn't change your snobbish and judgemental attitude to people based on wealth.'


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can post as many situations as you want - it doesn't change your snobbish and judgemental attitude to people based on wealth.'
		
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your the one harping on about wealth,my position is if they sold aston martins for Â£100 everyone would have one,some things should be aspired to,how would you feel if a gang of hard drinking loud mouths who had never touched a golf club turned up at your club and joined,would you smile and invite them to play a few rounds with you .


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We picked up loads of members from Laleham golf club a few years back. They were a little brash when they arrived, not drunk or unruly but just a little in your face and as if they'd been there years. They are now integrated and much calmer and some of the best laughs you can have. Have you actually asked the club why they took the decision in the first place
		
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will raise the point at E/O AGM


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			your the one harping on about wealth,my position is if they sold aston martins for Â£100 everyone would have one,some things should be aspired to,how would you feel if a gang of hard drinking loud mouths who had never touched a golf club turned up at your club and joined,would you smile and invite them to play a few rounds with you .
		
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Was it not you who said ensuring people could pay up front ensures no undesirables can join - you have suggested that behaviour is linked to how much money someone has 

Seen plenty of hard drinking loud mouths who have played golf and been a member of a members club for over 40 years.

Yes I would be happy to play with someone who has never played before - have played with lots of new members over the last 12 months - some have only just taken up the game. The person with the worst attitude and caused the most problems was someone with a lot of money and been a member of an exclusive club and was very judgemental towards others - he didn't last in the club long 

As long as someone shows respect towards others and the course and the club then I have no issues at all - but those actions aren't limited to just people who can't afford a joining fee up front or someone who doesn't have an "attractive job" or someone who hasn't ever played the game before.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2015)

We have millionaires and guys out of work as well as those that are in education and retired. In general the whole gamut of spending power and quite frankly their fiscal position, other than paying their subs on time, has no resemblance to their ability to behave responsibly on and off the course. If they don't I don't care how much money they have, I wouldn't want to play with them or spend anytime socially with them either. It's that simple


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## pokerjoke (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			it is about 10 who came en-block from another club,they had a poor reputation there but spent a lot in the club house so were tolerated !!!,they came with the same attitude,and have brought a few more of their friends with them,it just seems to have spiralled with other new members thinking its the norm,from what i have heard it is all about to come into the open,what has been going on behind the scenes,pity because the social side of the club was really good,just takes a few rotten apples.
		
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Then surely its your clubs fault and their system for letting new members is flawed.
Unless of course they knew this but overlooked the potential problem.
Or when they let you jump the queue they are not quite the people who should be vetting new members.


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## davidg2010uk (May 19, 2015)

a million in the bank?


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## chrisd (May 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			Then surely its your clubs fault and their system for letting new members is flawed.
Unless of course they knew this but overlooked the potential problem.
Or when they let you jump the queue they are not quite the people who should be vetting new members.
		
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I agree

If a number of individuals want to join en bloc then the new club really should find out more about why they want to come, who they are etc .... It shouldn't be difficult to find out about them


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## tugglesf239 (May 19, 2015)

Qwerty said:



			Theres plenty of them in Wigan!!   ..Sorry Wolfie 

Click to expand...

oo:


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## williamalex1 (May 19, 2015)

Previously at my club new members had to be proposed by a existing member who had at least 1 years membership and also pay a 50% joining fee.  
The proposer would then be held responsible for his nominees behaviour for the first year.
The idea being  that he would then teach the guy / gal basic rules and the correct way to behave on the course or in the clubhouse , if the newbie misbehaved , he was then in trouble.
As for joining fees , i'm


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## rksquire (May 19, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			.....gang of hard drinking loud mouths who had never touched a golf club turned up at your club and joined,would you smile and invite them to play a few rounds with you .
		
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For some reason I find myself really offended by the tone of this thread - not taking anything away or condoning any action that is leading to criminal /legal action or proper recriminations by the club - but to label and judge just seems off but....

it would seem that a gang of hard drinking Aston Martin driving loudmouths would be acceptable, but....

congratulations on attracting members who've never picked up a club before  - that will help stem the negative flow of people playing the game, and.....

yes, smile and invite them to play a game with you - lead by example.

Also, there seems to be something inherently wrong in the admissions system - not just now, but from before when people were allowed to circumvent waiting times just because who they knew.


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## bluewolf (May 19, 2015)

I can guarantee that the one thing that 6inchcup's club is not lacking is cash in the bank. They have more than any other club in the area. And you cheeky beggar  mate. You most certainly have not black balled me . In fact I'll most likely be down for a pint in the summer to watch the Victory!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 19, 2015)

What is the club ?


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## 6inchcup (May 19, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I can guarantee that the one thing that 6inchcup's club is not lacking is cash in the bank. They have more than any other club in the area. And you cheeky beggar  mate. You most certainly have not black balled me . In fact I'll most likely be down for a pint in the summer to watch the Victory!!!
		
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no problem pal i will buy the first pint,would not have to blackball you one word out of your mouth would get you barred !!!! dont forget to park your car on the overflow carpark along with the tradesmans vehicles:smirk:


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no problem pal i will buy the first pint,would not have to blackball you one word out of your mouth would get you barred !!!! dont forget to park your car on the overflow carpark along with the tradesmans vehicles:smirk:
		
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I'm going to borrow a mates van and park it right in front of the Club.. That should get the tongues wagging..


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## Smiffy (May 20, 2015)

Got to be honest, your club doesn't sound too friendly or welcoming.
Maybe if you erected a pigeon loft next to the clubhouse, or allowed whippet racing up and down the first fairway once in a while it might make these new members feel more "integrated" and they would gradually settle in to your way of doing things.
I think it's culture shock, and the change of surroundings has just been a little bit too much for them. They are getting over excited.


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## Slab (May 20, 2015)

Given how itâ€™s been presented itâ€™s actually quite hard to sympathise with the problem at the OPâ€™s club (& fighting and disturbances clearly are problems that needs to be dealt with) 

That fact there was loud signing that disturbed a meeting or a brawl in the games room is somewhat overshadowed by the Op opinion and the suggested reasons why this could have been avoided:


Knowing the â€˜right peopleâ€™ allows for a preferential membership process over other applicants and is OK
Having a large disposable pot of cash means youâ€™re less likely to be an undesirable member
It should be seen as an honour to be chosen to join a golf club! 
Incremental payment options attract gangs
If youâ€™re not happy to be judged by your peers based on your employment status & age then you may have something to hide (remembering some of those peers may have sought preferential treatment for their own applications just as the OP did)


The biggest problem at your club is that the bar manager has no idea when to stop serving more drinks to people that have clearly had too much! (perhaps the bar managers interview was like a membership one and was decided simply by whether they dressed smartly and knew someone on the committee)  

Thatâ€™s it, thatâ€™s all it is, you describe both instances as being carried out by drunks and unless they arrived in that condition the club served booze allowing them to get too drunk. Ask yourself this, would either instance have happened if they werenâ€™t drunk?

It has nothing to do with interviews, dress codes, age, personal wealth or career path

 And yes thereâ€™s a separate topic about the type of people who drink too much but that has little to do with golf club membership in isolation


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## MendieGK (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't believe anyone should be judged as such and people should be looked at by their actions not by their wealth or job or age 

Certainly no chips on my shoulder
		
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My mate, one of the nicest most polite guys you will ever meet got refused initially by Hayling a few years ago - because he turned up in his white van that he owned for his company (yes he was fully suited and booted for the interview).

He has since got in, but at the time it wasnt a great feeling for him.


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## DCB (May 20, 2015)

What do people get asked at an interview ?

I take it that there is more to it then "what school did you go to" and " what team do you support"


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			if they had spent 30 mins being interviewed a better understanding of the type of person they were,rather than walking in with a deposit and filling a form in
		
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So if a Flight Lieutenant from the RAF turned up and took the interview in his Squadrons Blazer, you would instantly ask him to join as he must be someone of good standing and a responsible individual.

Well I use to work with one that liked a Stella or ten. He would be all over, touching any half decent looking woman, telling the sort of jokes that really aren't very appropriate and if anyone tells him he's had enough he would start getting aggressive. This wasn't just in town centre bars but he did this at a squadron function in a 5 star hotel. 

So so don't tell me for one minute that a 30 minute interview gives a club secretary the ability to carry out a full phsychiatric evaluation of a new member.


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## SAPCOR1 (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			if they had spent 30 mins being interviewed a better understanding of the type of person they were,rather than walking in with a deposit and filling a form in
they could well be know to members and not be suitable due to past actions
if they havnt got the money up front the insentive
 to join isnt the same as paying monthly 
but would be vetted so less chance
not really got a healthy membership prior and healthy bank account
because no one is vetting new members,and only paying a small deposit doesn't stop some less desirable people,if they had to cough up over 2k up front it would narrow down the undesirables
		
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So if you can stump up over Â£2k you are a fine and outstanding chap but if you can't there is a fair chance you are an undersireable?

What a way to judge people and that is as bad as the poor behaviour of the drunks in the bar


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## garyinderry (May 20, 2015)

Slab is correct.    He drink should be refused at first sign of unrest.   


I've seen members being told off for being a bit too loud or language being used that was inappropriate.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

DCB said:



			What do people get asked at an interview ?

I take it that there is more to it then "what school did you go to" and " what team do you support" 

Click to expand...

I didn't get asked much tbh - just why I would like to join the club , mainly was me asking questions


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## Ethan (May 20, 2015)

I started to read the OP, but the lack of punctuation forced my level of interest to break down. Can someone summarise what he is on about?


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I started to read the OP, but the lack of punctuation forced my level of interest to break down. Can someone summarise what he is on about?
		
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Poor people are bad.


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## Slab (May 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I started to read the OP, but the lack of punctuation forced my level of interest to break down. Can someone summarise what he is on about?
		
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Basically he wants the power to blackball people based on their job, dress-code, age, disposable income or failure to interview well, because a few 'undesirables' were allowed (by the club) to get drunk and misbehave at the clubhouse the other day


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## Region3 (May 20, 2015)

Slab said:



			Basically he wants the power to blackball people based on their job, dress-code, age, disposable income or failure to interview well, because a few 'undesirables' were allowed (by the club) to get drunk and misbehave at the clubhouse the other day 

Click to expand...

Luckily they aren't judged on the ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Luckily they aren't judged on the ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence. 

Click to expand...

Or knowing the difference between 'effect' and 'affect'!


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## virtuocity (May 20, 2015)

Ethan said:



			I started to read the OP, but the lack of punctuation forced my level of interest to break down. Can someone summarise what he is on about?
		
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Hopefully this visual representation sums up the OP


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## MendieGK (May 20, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			Hopefully this visual representation sums up the OP






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Give this man a medal


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## pokerjoke (May 20, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			Hopefully this visual representation sums up the OP






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That's pure quality mate love it


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## pokerjoke (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Luckily they aren't judged on the ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence. 

Click to expand...

Thank god for that I would be doomed.
I knew I should have took more notice at school


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## Simbo (May 20, 2015)

So you were quite happy to accept an invitation to join quickly because you knew the "right people" but now the rules have changed, you don't like them and "peasants" can join you aren't happy?? Double standards!
While I can see what you're trying to say you're going to get very little sympathy with your attitude. If you want to join a club and play with other snobs then that's your choice. It's this kind of attitude that gets golf a bad name IMO and stop a lot more people joining clubs than the witchhunt of slow play!


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## SugarPenguin (May 20, 2015)

virtuocity said:



			Hopefully this visual representation sums up the OP






Click to expand...

Best post I have seen on here yet.

I understand the OP in the sense that you do need to keep traditions and rules are rules but plenty of people like a drink and a sing song. SO long as its not offending anybody its there club just as much as it is yours. Brawling doesnt really have any place though but thats just one of those things I assume. It will be a once in a bluemoon occurrence


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## JustOne (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through
		
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Your club could have stayed more 'exclusive' BUT IT CHOSE NOT TO by a committee *elected by the people of the club* - don't see what your problem is, go join another club if you don't like the way your elected committee is running yours.

Agree with the points about the barman serving 'drunks' and also with a point that you should simply ban the undesirables if they break the clubs rules. They did sign on the dotted line that they wouldn't cause any disturbances on the course or clubhouse, right?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Just seems to me that the Club Steward (or whoever was in the bar) failed to keep a lit on their behaviour.  All the rest of the stuff about individual's background and joining process is a barrel of red herrings to me.  

We have taken on 80-90 new members in over the last year - we used to post application forms on a board for members to peruse- but thankfully I think we've stopped doing that.  I take every member as I find him or her.  I don't give a monkeys about their background.  If anyone is not my type I might not seek out playing with him again - likewise he might not take to me - that's just fine.

As far as the financials - joining fees and subs plans etc - when I joined I was happy to pay the joniing fee and the membership payment requirements as they were back then.  What they are now I really don't care - and I don't ask any of the new members about their's.  We members vote a committee to make decisions for us on that front - and one of their prime objectives is to limit increases in my subs.  How they do that is up to them and I don't really feel I need to be consulted.  I need them top report on finances and membership status - any issues and the clubs strategy looking forward.

And I just get on with meeting new members and playing golf.


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## Slab (May 20, 2015)

Is it just a typo in the opening post that means everyone of position within the golf club has their title highlighted in capital letters? 

i.e MR CAPTAIN, CHAIRMAN,  SECRETARY & LADY CAPTAIN...





Everyone of position that is except the person who introduced the changes to the membership process, who is described simply as â€˜the new secâ€™!


Now if my name was Freud....


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2015)

In over 40+yrs of golf as I've moved around the UK and abroad I've seen this sort of behaviour at every club I've been a member of, irrespective of how snotty golf or the club might be.

The simple answer is how a new member is introduced to the club, inc the club's rules. If there's a serious breach, chuck 'em out. One or two expulsions usually makes people sit up and take note.... for a while. But I'll guarantee it'll happen again. it always does where drink is available.


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## ruff-driver (May 20, 2015)




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## Region3 (May 20, 2015)

I actually have some sympathy with the OP.

However much I disagree with the attitude and policies of whichever club it is, it had a membership that liked it that way and now their 'ways' have been turned upside down.

The club was obviously thriving, and until we hear more it doesn't seem to make any sense for them to want to change.
If the membership were happy being judged as outdated then that impression from the outside would help to preserve what they like so much about their club.

Unless the OP was in a minority of people who liked it the way it was?


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			I actually have some sympathy with the OP.

However much I disagree with the attitude and policies of whichever club it is, it had a membership that liked it that way and now their 'ways' have been turned upside down.

The club was obviously thriving, and until we hear more it doesn't seem to make any sense for them to want to change.
If the membership were happy being judged as outdated then that impression from the outside would help to preserve what they like so much about their club.

Unless the OP was in a minority of people who liked it the way it was?
		
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The Club in question has always had a reputation  as a "Very Traditional" Members Club. It hasn't changed for many many years, and didn't appear to be in a position to need to change. The Membership was always full and they managed to keep a joining fee in an area where most Members clubs were forced to drop theirs. They were also Cash Rich due to business dealings separate from normal revenue streams.

 I know several people who moved to the Club and one of the main reasons was its maintenance of what we might call "old school values". That's not to say that they have discriminated against any group, but they have maintained fairly strict standards when others have "moved with the times."

I'm not sure why people felt there was a need to change really. The Club filled a niche market in an area that has numerous Member clubs. All the members I have spoken to were proud of the Club and especially its social scene. I suspect that there may be some regrets now and that talks will be underway to revert back to its original business model..


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## shortstuff (May 20, 2015)

There have to be some standards at the club. But if it's too fuddy-duddy it will eventually fold because the pool of old boys is ever decreasing. At our place, the flag is often at half-mast because another one has past away.


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## bobmac (May 20, 2015)

Sounds like it's all the new secretary's fault


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

bobmac said:



			Sounds like it's all the new secretary's fault
		
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Sounds like a new secretary with some foresight of trouble ahead unless the club changed it's ways a bit.  Change from a traditional and widely accepted norm is never going to be popular.  Seems just that the scenario described about the drunken behaviour was just not handled properly - probably as not had to deal with it before and possibly because acceptable clubhouse behaviour rules not set out clearly in advance.


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## shewy (May 20, 2015)

Got to say in response to the OP that's what put me off joining a certain golf club near me, I went for the interview and actually was embarrassed by what they were asking.
They wanted to know my whole background and income and insisted I be accompanied for the first month. Now I know a few members there and tbh honest I earn easily double what they do and have been playing golf for 20+ years, it put me off no end and thankfully I joined a great club.
I grew up in Scotland playing quite a few courses and it's not supposed to be a snobbish game, it's supposed to be a game for the people regardless of your background, I've had some great rounds with guys who have not two pennies to rub together and some awful ones with guys who are above there station.
There may be a market for these clubs but I sincerely hope they are dwindling, you have to remember you voted for this so maybe it's just a transition period.
How do these guys behave on the course? is it just a bar problem.


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## Sponge1980 (May 20, 2015)

After reading this I'm glad I'm a member of the club I am. No interview, no dress code, Â£270 to join for a year and some of the nicest hard drinking loudmouths you could ever wish to meet.


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## Liverbirdie (May 20, 2015)

SugarPenguin said:



			. Brawling doesnt really have any place though but thats just one of those things I assume. It will be a once in a bluewolf occurrence
		
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Fixed - No wonder they blackballed you, Dan.


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## User20205 (May 20, 2015)

It's up north... How posh can it be?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Sponge1980 said:



			After reading this I'm glad I'm a member of the club I am. No interview, no dress code, Â£270 to join for a year and some of the nicest hard drinking loudmouths you could ever wish to meet.
		
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You might think a wee bit different if you paid over Â£1000 to join and Â£1500 a year subs - and you paid that in expectation of continuation of what had become expected of the club - and then they changed the rules and the nature and feeling of the club changed beyond your recognition.   

Easy enough to walk away from a club if you haven't invested a lot of your money in it.  I may not totally agree with much of OPs thoughts - but I understand his sentiment.


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## StrangelyBrown (May 20, 2015)

DCB said:



			What do people get asked at an interview ?

I take it that there is more to it then "what school did you go to" and " what team do you support" 

Click to expand...

I'm glad that there was no interview when I joined. I look "alternative", so I assume that the blazer and tie brigade would judge books by covers 

Ignoring the fact that I'm a reasonably well behaved and well adjusted person, I'm sure that a lot of clubs might not like "my type" in their membership.

Edit: - referring to the OP, some of the rudest, aggressive and most unpleasant people I know happen to be the ones that are well educated, have seemingly high paid jobs and look well presented.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might think a wee bit different if you paid over Â£1000 to join and Â£1500 a year subs - and you paid that in expectation of continuation of what had become expected of the club - and then they changed the rules and the nature and feeling of the club changed beyond your recognition.   

Easy enough to walk away from a club if you haven't invested a lot of your money in it.  I may not totally agree with much of OPs thoughts - but I understand his sentiment.
		
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OMG! I agree with SILH!!

You join a club with an expectation aligned with what you've seen and what you've heard. Hopefully the club will act along the lines of what is expected by the majority of its members. If a few loutish members aren't happy, they know where the door is.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might think a wee bit different if you paid over Â£1000 to join and Â£1500 a year subs - and you paid that in expectation of continuation of what had become expected of the club - and then they changed the rules and the nature and feeling of the club changed beyond your recognition.   

Easy enough to walk away from a club if you haven't invested a lot of your money in it.  I may not totally agree with much of OPs thoughts - but I understand his sentiment.
		
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Doesn't excuse the attitude and generalisation of people displayed by the poster 

I have paid the same sort of money and rules have changed in recent years to make it more welcoming and accepting of people 

I'm sure the club in question changed its entry in line with its club rules and it appears the members voted in favour of the change 

For me the main issue was the attitude towards people from the OP - it displayed all that's wrong with the game 

Yes there will always be issues with people that can't behave but to align that to a certain type of people in regards money was disgraceful tbh


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## Jimaroid (May 20, 2015)

Would love to see what this club would make of Alice Cooper. He seems to meet all the requirements of entry.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Fixed - No wonder they blackballed you, Dan.

Click to expand...

Oy, I'll have you know that I'm a very highly educated drunkard. I even passed my 11+....... Obviously I then was forced to take a job cleaning chimneys and following horses to collect and sell the manure to the local turnip farmers.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Jimaroid said:



			Would love to see what this club would make of Alice Cooper. He seems to meet all the requirements of entry.
		
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The club itself is actually very friendly and welcoming. I appreciate that this doesn't appear to be the case, but it's true. They do have some very traditional rules though that some might find archaic.


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## Region3 (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For me the main issue was the attitude towards people from the OP - it displayed all that's wrong with the game
		
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A lot of people will agree with the above.

I include myself in that group, but surely it is better for us and them if they are all together in one club rather than a dozen dotted around at each club.

As much as we don't agree with the dated attitude, we have to respect their choices, and a club catering solely for people with those values I think is a good thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			OMG! I agree with SILH!!
		
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LOL (yes I actually did!)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			A lot of people will agree with the above.

I include myself in that group, but surely it is better for us and them if they are all together in one club rather than a dozen dotted around at each club.

As much as we don't agree with the dated attitude, we have to respect their choices, and a club catering solely for people with those values I think is a good thing.
		
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Agree with that Gary

Have them all in one club together - then the doors locked :thup:


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Agree with that Gary

Have them all in one club together - then the doors locked :thup:
		
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So what you're saying is that there's a group of people who have different opinions and behaviours to you, and you don't want them at your club and would like them to stick to their own club where they could mix with only like minded people? 

I think my irony meter just exploded


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

All comes down to there being a simple statement in the rules of membership along lines of 'by their actions all members are expected to respect the wishes of their fellow members'

...and so we find that our TV (in our main lounge) is by default on mute and remains so if there are members in the lounge not watching the TV.  If we would like a bit of volume we ask the steward and he/she asks if anyone minds the TV being turned up.  This is simple good manners and respect for other members, but requires acceptance that in a club you don't always get what you want and - going back to OP - can't always act and behave how you'd want.


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## Liverbirdie (May 20, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			The club itself is actually very friendly and welcoming. I appreciate that this doesn't appear to be the case, but it's true. They do have some very traditional rules though that some might find archaic.
		
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Unless you drive a white van.......


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Unless you drive a white van.......
		
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Oh it's not racist, they are an equal opportunity van hating club


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## ruff-driver (May 20, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Oh it's not racist, they are an equal opportunity van hating club 

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even this !


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## Region3 (May 20, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			So what you're saying is that there's a group of people who have different opinions and behaviours to you, and you don't want them at your club and would like them to stick to their own club where they could mix with only like minded people? 

I think my irony meter just exploded 

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I know mine wasn't the post that was quoted, but surely you choose a club partially based around these things, so to join one that doesn't hold your values then try to change things would be silly.

What would be the point of someone joining my club and trying to change the dress code for instance so that jackets were required in the dining room? Or me joining a traditional club then walking into the clubhouse wearing jeans?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

My club changed it clubhouse dress code very recently to allow jeans.  I went for a bite of lunch today and wore nice new pair of jeans. I am sure that some older members who were in were not too impressed.  I felt a bit awkward because I was worried a bit about what they were thinking as I too was unsure about relaxing the dress code.  However I was totally adhering to the new rules but... 

Also this is only the second time I have worn jeans into a golf clubhouse (ANY golf clubhouse ANYWHERE) - and it felt wrong 

And that is the problem with change.


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## Region3 (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club changed it clubhouse dress code very recently to allow jeans.  I went for a bite of lunch today and wore nice new pair of jeans. I am sure that some older members who were in were not too impressed.  I felt a bit awkward because I was worried a bit about what they were thinking as I too was unsure about relaxing the dress code.  However I was totally adhering to the new rules but... 

Also this is only the second time I have worn jeans into a golf clubhouse (ANY golf clubhouse ANYWHERE) - and it felt wrong 

And that is the problem with change.
		
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If your club hadn't relaxed the dress code, would you have gone somewhere else for lunch or changed into suitable clothes to go?

I don't put golf clothes on to hit balls on the range or pick my daughter up from her lesson, but I sometimes use the clubhouse while I'm there. If jeans weren't allowed I wouldn't change just so I could get a drink.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			I know mine wasn't the post that was quoted, but surely you choose a club partially based around these things, so to join one that doesn't hold your values then try to change things would be silly.

What would be the point of someone joining my club and trying to change the dress code for instance so that jackets were required in the dining room? Or me joining a traditional club then walking into the clubhouse wearing jeans?
		
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I actually agree with you Gary. One of my earlier posts alluded to this very point. There should be a choice on offer and if the Club in question best suits your wants and needs then that's the one you join. If not, then there are several other options in the area..

I just found it amusing that the general direction of the thread was that certain people would not be welcome at some posters Clubs and that they should stick to their own Club.. My own view is that the only person who should decide whether they join any particular club is the individual who is stumping up the cash. 

On a slight tangent, I think the discussion of interviews is suffering because of the term "Interview". I've had to attend 3 "Interviews" and at all 3 it's been an opportunity for representatives of the Committee to talk to me about that particular Club and to give me the chance to ask questions without having to seek people out after I've paid my subs. At no point have I felt that I was being interviewed.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club changed it clubhouse dress code very recently to allow jeans.  I went for a bite of lunch today and wore nice new pair of jeans. I am sure that some older members who were in were not too impressed.  I felt a bit awkward because I was worried a bit about what they were thinking as I too was unsure about relaxing the dress code.  However I was totally adhering to the new rules but... 

Also this is only the second time I have worn jeans into a golf clubhouse (ANY golf clubhouse ANYWHERE) - and it felt wrong 

And that is the problem with change.
		
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THe simple problem where was you were too busy worrying what others think


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			If your club hadn't relaxed the dress code, would you have gone somewhere else for lunch or changed into suitable clothes to go?

I don't put golf clothes on to hit balls on the range or pick my daughter up from her lesson, but I sometimes use the clubhouse while I'm there. If jeans weren't allowed I wouldn't change just so I could get a drink.
		
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I would still have gone and would have changed - and I never had an issue with that.  Difference today is that I can be out and about in jeans and decide to pop into the clubhouse - previously I'd have had to go home to get changed and so I wouldn't have gone in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			THe simple problem where was you were too busy worrying what others think
		
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I was only thinking what I would think.  As said - I'm still a little uncomfortable wearing jeans in the clubhouse even although they are allowed - and that discomfort is only because I've never done it in the past.  It still feels wrong.  I felt I had to ask if I was allowed into another part of the clubhouse to get to our downstairs loos - which I was.

As I said change is difficult; and change can be uncomfortable even when you embrace it and know it is the right thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was only thinking what I would think.  As said - I'm still a little uncomfortable wearing jeans in the clubhouse even although they are allowed - and that discomfort is only because I've never done it in the past.  It still feels wrong.  I felt I had to ask if I was allowed into another part of the clubhouse to get to our downstairs loos - which I was.

As I said change is difficult; and change can be uncomfortable even when you embrace it and know it is the right thing.
		
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It's just a pair of jeans or trousers ?!? 

When it's comes to change its nothing


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			we did have till the flood gates opened.
		
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So hold on, you had lots of people on your waiting list and now because they don't have to pay it all upfront they are now members, have I got that correct? Sounds to me like you never had a waiting list. More like you had a lot of people waiting to join but couldn't afford it.

It looks like you have someone who has got foresight to see where the club is heading, down the drain. Has it really got a million in the bank or is that just clubhouse talk, I would love to see a copy of the financial statement to back that claim up. 

Chances are are the secretary hasn't got his head buried in the sand, like the old guard at your club, and can see the long term financial stability of the club is of the upmost importance.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			So hold on, you had lots of people on your waiting list and now because they don't have to pay it all upfront they are now members, have I got that correct? Sounds to me like you never had a waiting list. More like you had a lot of people waiting to join but couldn't afford it.

It looks like you have someone who has got foresight to see where the club is heading, down the drain. Has it really got a million in the bank or is that just clubhouse talk, I would love to see a copy of the financial statement to back that claim up. 

Chances are are the secretary hasn't got his head buried in the sand, like the old guard at your club, and can see the long term financial stability of the club is of the upmost importance.
		
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As I have posted on 2 separate occasions, I "know" that the Club is very cash rich. I can't vouch for the waiting list, but I do know that they were pretty full the last time I played there, but that was 18 months ago.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

Which club is this ?


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's just a pair of jeans or trousers ?!? 

When it's comes to change its nothing
		
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Come on Phil, your telling me that yor the first person to serve in the RAF that embraced change. I know exactly what SILH means, I don't feel comfortable doing this at a golf club either, but I started playing as a kid at a club similar to the OP. So for me traditional dress code is something that has always always been forced on me.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 20, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Come on Phil, your telling me that yor the first person to serve in the RAF that embraced change. I know exactly what SILH means, I don't feel comfortable doing this at a golf club either, but I started playing as a kid at a club similar to the OP. So for me traditional dress code is something that has always always been forced on me.
		
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I have no issue with change 

Our club moved to allow jeans in the clubhouse - no issues at all. 

Like I said it's only a pair of trousers - nothing to be worried about


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			As I have posted on 2 separate occasions, I "know" that the Club is very cash rich. I can't vouch for the waiting list, but I do know that they were pretty full the last time I played there, but that was 18 months ago.
		
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The point I was making is that the waiting list might have disappeared, so this lump of money might be slowly dwindling down due to the club not operating at full capacity. Chances are from the sound of it, this club will have an elderly membership who are not going to be there much longer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no issue with change 

Our club moved to allow jeans in the clubhouse - no issues at all. 

Like I said it's only a pair of trousers - nothing to be worried about
		
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You have no issue with change and in most respects I don't either.  Despite that, I feel uncomfortable wearing jeans in the clubhouse...at the moment, and seeing others with their shirts outside their trousers (also now allowed) and not tucked in.  I am sure that I'll get over it.  

But change can be uncomfortable and difficult, and for those *opposed* to the change - even (or especially) in things like the dress code - they will not be particularly happy with the new situation - and I think that whilst being positive about the change you have to be sensitive to that.


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2015)

Would the simple thing be to look on prospective members Facebook or Twitter accounts as that will tell you more in 30 seconds about someone than any type of interview will nowadays?


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			we did have till the flood gates opened.
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			Would the simple thing be to look on prospective members Facebook or Twitter accounts as that will tell you more in 30 seconds about someone than any type of interview will nowadays?
		
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It probably would TBH. Lots of pics of family days out compared to pictures of drunken nights out would certainly tell a few tales.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			The point I was making is that the waiting list might have disappeared, so this lump of money might be slowly dwindling down due to the club not operating at full capacity. Chances are from the sound of it, this club will have an elderly membership who are not going to be there much longer.
		
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I'm fairly confident that the Club isn't losing money. I know that they'll be operating at near-full capacity (unless they've lost a bucket load of members in the last 12 months). I also know that the Social side of the Club is very healthy. I have a suspicion that the new Secretary has looked at the age demographics and has persuaded everyone that they would benefit from an influx of new, younger members to replace the older ones who have left. This is most likely why they have relaxed the entry criteria. I know that my Club has done a similar thing over the last 6 months and has brought in over 50 new members from across all age groups.

Oh, and Phil. It's not my place to tell you the name of the Club. It's not my thread or Club. I'm not ignoring your request :thup:


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			It probably would TBH. Lots of pics of family days out compared to pictures of drunken nights out would certainly tell a few tales.
		
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LOL, most of my FB posts are family pictures, but I'm more than capable of enjoying a drunken night out when the mood allows.


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## Hacker Khan (May 20, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			Just had a chat with my playing partner from my club who played in snr comp today,apparently trouble is brewing in the membership that could cause legal problems,a quick background to main point.
When i joined like a lot of private members clubs in the area we had a joining list that you put your name on and waited,i didn't wait long because i knew the people to know,anyway on the night of my interview i turned up shirt and tie nice blazer and slacks and polished black shoes,called into room to be greeted by the three wise men,MR CAPTAIN,the club CHAIRMAN and club SECRETARY,the chap's who proposed me and seconded me had written letters and these were read out for the minutes,after about 20-30 mins of questions about myself and friendly banter i was told my name would be put up in the club house and if no objections from the membership i would get a letter of invitation to join,this i duly got and had to pay my joining fee Â£1000 and green fees Â£850 in one payment.
Now jump to the present situation that has now boiled over,to move with the times !! the new sec. brought in a modern approach,that was put before the committee and narrowly got through,stop the interviews,stop the members having a say in who could or couldn't join and let new members pay joining fee over 5 years and pay monthly for the green fee,to be honest the standard of new member is appalling to say the least we have had cars damaged in the car park,a drunken brawl in the games room and the incident that has brought things to a head,6 drunken members (3 weeks ) singing rugby songs at full volume in the bar lounge as the LADY CAPTAIN was entertaining other captains from local courses in a monthly meeting in the lounge next door,the mayhem that followed could now be going to court.
The reason im writing this is *some on these pages think golf should be a modern sport without tradition,and jeans flip flops,tee shirts are suitable clothing for the club house,anything goes attitude comes from those who are new to the game,or have never had the honour to be chosen to be a member of a private club,*why should clubs that people have waited years to join have to move with the times,the feel of my club seems to have been lost,members who have been the backbone of the club for 40 years are leaving,the reputation has been tainted,and all for what to be seen to be a modern club open to everyone i ask WHY,why SHOULD mine or anyone's club have to do what the golfing press says,modern isnt always the best.
		
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I think you're slightly painting this as black V white.  The clubs that will thrive are those that manage to ensure the best bits of the tradition of the game are upheld whilst at the same time looking to modernise in some areas and make the game and their specific 'offering' attractive to the generation of people they are trying to attract, therefore ensuring a healthy future for their club and the game in general. 

Yes there will be extremes on both sides (some will be stuck permanently in the 1950s and on the other side of the coin there will be some that allow 'poor people' to play) and a few may well prosper if they have the tradition, history and money to carry it off. Or a vast supply of golf mad poor northerners wearing football shirts and flip fops nearby to support it. But the vast majority will fall somewhere in between.


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think you're slightly painting this as black V white.  The clubs that will thrive are those that manage to ensure the best bits of the tradition of the game are upheld whilst at the same time looking to modernise in some areas and make the game and their specific 'offering' attractive to the generation of people they are trying to attract, therefore ensuring a healthy future for their club and the game in general. 

Yes there will be extremes on both sides (some will be stuck permanently in the 1950s and on the other side of the coin there will be some that allow 'poor people' to play) and a few may well prosper if they have the tradition, history and money to carry it off. Or a vast supply of golf mad poor northerners wearing football shirts and flip fops nearby to support it. But the vast majority will fall somewhere in between.
		
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Damn.. The firs para started so well, then you just couldn't help yourself in the second para could you?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My club changed it clubhouse dress code very recently to allow jeans.  I went for a bite of lunch today and wore nice new pair of jeans. I am sure that some older members who were in were not too impressed.  I felt a bit awkward because I was worried a bit about what they were thinking as I too was unsure about relaxing the dress code.  However I was totally adhering to the new rules but... 

Also this is only the second time I have worn jeans into a golf clubhouse (ANY golf clubhouse ANYWHERE) - and it felt wrong 

And that is the problem with change.
		
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Funny enough just arrived at Southport and wandered up to find Hillside. Went past Royal Birkdale and I wanted to go in and get a few pics and one of me in front of the famous clubhouse but as I'd driven up in jeans didn't think it was appropriate to go even though I had no intention of using the clubhouse and facilities. We did have a jeans rule for a while and I had the same vibes from older members when HID and I turned up in them. Funny enough it has since been rescinded, mainly by block voting from the seniors at the AGM


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Funny enough just arrived at Southport and wandered up to find Hillside. Went past Royal Birkdale and I wanted to go in and get a few pics and one of me in front of the famous clubhouse but as I'd driven up in jeans didn't think it was appropriate to go even though I had no intention of using the clubhouse and facilities. We did have a jeans rule for a while and I had the same vibes from older members when HID and I turned up in them. Funny enough it has since been rescinded, mainly by block voting from the seniors at the AGM
		
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You worry too much. Just go and get the pictures.

Easier to ask forgiveness, than to get permission!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You worry too much. Just go and get the pictures.

Easier to ask forgiveness, than to get permission!
		
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Very probably but I was brought up in an old school way when jeans at a golf club especially such a prestigious one would have got you ceremonially flogged on the 18th. We're only five minutes away so will do it tomorrow on the way to Hillide


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

Back to the OP.

Your club needs to be careful or they risk ending up in trouble. As a kid and into early adulthood I was a member of a club that had a 5 year waiting list and all the old traditions like acceptance interviews, no shorts in the clubhouse after 6:00 pm, jacket and tie in the restaurant etc. 

Problem was that this started to put younger players off joining and they went to new courses that had a far more relaxed 'modern' environment. Then as the aging membership left the club started offering membership to players from the waiting list. It is then they found that  most of of  people on the waiting list no longer had any desire to join, as they had settled into somewhere else that wasn't run by a strict out of date regime.

I last played there 5 years ago and the difference in standard of course is no even close to the place I remember and they are constantly doing different things to attract new members. 

The point I'm making is that maybe the new secretary has the foresight to see that this may happen to your club, so is trying to I do something to prevent it. Is it not better to try and keep the membership near capacity than letting it drop.


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## Evesdad (May 20, 2015)

My club has a relaxed dress code in the bar, no joining fee anymore and we can pay monthly. Have we had drunken fights etc? No.


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## Fyldewhite (May 20, 2015)

It's nothing to do with dress code or ability to pay, it's simply down to behaviour. I hear stories all the time about some of the things that happened 20-30 years ago and there were still altercations, fisticuffs, and no end of drunkenness then. We have a relaxed policy these days and yes, "standards have fallen" whatever that means. The level of swearing in the bar on a Saturday tea time is possibly a problem......but I think that's more a reflection of society in general than anything else. They tone it down if they are told to. Ultimately, if the bad behaviour becomes the norm it is difficult to change back so it has to be stamped on by the committee to a degree. I think the committee in the OP has failed to do anything by the sounds of it which is a shame.


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## Simbo (May 20, 2015)

What's the big secret about what club it is? where's the OP gone? What is the legal action being threatened?., because of the fighting or because someone does their golf clothing shopping in sports direct?.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 20, 2015)

We are a Royal club but if you walked in to the 19th on a Saturday lunchtime we've no airs and graces and in truth the banter amongst the roll up is perhaps a bit too raucous and OTT but we get told to wind the necks in when it gets too much for others. Perfectly fine with doing that. I agree with Fyldewhite and think the swearing in the banter is more a comment on society in general than the club anmd members


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## Stuart_C (May 20, 2015)

OP, I reckon after some of the recent antics that's gone on I'd fit right in, any chance of proposing me??


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## MadAdey (May 20, 2015)

Not sure if it still the same but I was a member at somewhere called Soith Kyme once. No where near the best course I've ever been a member at, but definitely the best club. It was likened to a Working Men's Club, but with a golf course out the back. Pool tables and dartboards in the clubhouse made it far from a stuffy environment. Many a time after a Saturday lunchtime game we would get in the clubhouse for dinner time. By 11 at night and several drinks too many, Id need a taxi home as I could t even see my car, let alone drive it.


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## GB72 (May 20, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Not sure if it still the same but I was a member at somewhere called Soith Kyme once. No where near the best course I've ever been a member at, but definitely the best club. It was likened to a Working Men's Club, but with a golf course out the back. Pool tables and dartboards in the clubhouse made it far from a stuffy environment. Many a time after a Saturday lunchtime game we would get in the clubhouse for dinner time. By 11 at night and several drinks too many, Id need a taxi home as I could t even see my car, let alone drive it.
		
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Now that sounds like my type of club.


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## MadAdey (May 21, 2015)

GB72 said:



			Now that sounds like my type of club.
		
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Its not that far from you, 15 mins past Sleaford on the 151. Then  again I wouldn't leave your place for it, the course is not in the same league as yours. I spoke about another club a few posts ago, dic you not like the sound of that then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very probably but I was brought up in an old school way when jeans at a golf club especially such a prestigious one would have got you ceremonially flogged on the 18th. We're only five minutes away so will do it tomorrow on the way to Hillside
		
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That's just it. I'd have been the same as you - in fact I thought the same a couple of years back when visiting Castle Stuart to have a look - I was wearing jeans and felt I shouldn't have been. With me it's not just a case of wearing jeans and be damned - my 'upbringing' in golf tells me that I shouldn't be in or around a golf club (private club especially) in jeans as I might be disrespecting the dress code of the club.

I guess to younger or newer players that sounds absolutely pathetic


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## SugarPenguin (May 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's just it. I'd have been the same as you - in fact I thought the same a couple of years back when visiting Castle Stuart to have a look - I was wearing jeans and felt I shouldn't have been. With me it's not just a case of wearing jeans and be damned - my 'upbringing' in golf tells me that I shouldn't be in or around a golf club (private club especially) in jeans as I might be disrespecting the dress code of the club.

I guess to younger or newer players that sounds absolutely pathetic 

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Not really. if the club has a code you should respect it or else you shouldnt be there. Simple from my standpoint.
Im in my mids 20's - Hopefully that counts as young.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			Back to the OP.

Your club needs to be careful or they risk ending up in trouble. As a kid and into early adulthood I was a member of a club that had a 5 year waiting list and all the old traditions like acceptance interviews, no shorts in the clubhouse after 6:00 pm, jacket and tie in the restaurant etc. 

Problem was that this started to put younger players off joining and they went to new courses that had a far more relaxed 'modern' environment. Then as the aging membership left the club started offering membership to players from the waiting list. It is then they found that  most of of  people on the waiting list no longer had any desire to join, as they had settled into somewhere else that wasn't run by a strict out of date regime.

I last played there 5 years ago and the difference in standard of course is no even close to the place I remember and they are constantly doing different things to attract new members. 

*The point I'm making is that maybe the new secretary has the foresight to see that this may happen to your club, so is trying to I do something to prevent it. Is it not better to try and keep the membership near capacity than letting it drop.*

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Totally agree - new secretary and new ideas - trouble at mill almost inevitably.  We are in a similar situation with our new Business Manager (replacing the retired secretary).  He's been in post about a year now and seems to have got the club on a good sound financial standing - lots of new members under a variety of schemes that I don;t know about - if I did I might me miffed so I'm glad that I don't.

Next up and sure to really stir things will probably be a push for a 'full blown' tee booking system, and encouraging visitors with very attractive green fees and packages to play at quiet times.  I am one of the members who likes to roll up and play by myself at quiet times and enjoy millionaire golf - and so that's going to test my own acceptance of change.


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## patricks148 (May 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's just it. I'd have been the same as you - in fact I thought the same a couple of years back when visiting Castle Stuart to have a look - I was wearing jeans and felt I shouldn't have been. With me it's not just a case of wearing jeans and be damned - my 'upbringing' in golf tells me that I shouldn't be in or around a golf club (private club especially) in jeans as I might be disrespecting the dress code of the club.

I guess to younger or newer players that sounds absolutely pathetic 

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Castle Stuart is a pay and play course with no club as such, i think you might even be able to wear jeans on the course if you like, as long as you pay your green fee. You can also wear jeans at Royal Dornoch


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2015)

SugarPenguin said:



			Not really. if the club has a code you should respect it or else you shouldnt be there. Simple from my standpoint.
Im in my mids 20's - Hopefully that counts as young.
		
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Thing is I won't know what the actual dress code is - jeans might be allowed - but I might not know and I'd still feel awkward.  Remember I'm only really talking about such as going to a club and going into the shop - or taking some pics of the clubhouse or course.  Yer general non-golfing public would just wander up and not give a toss.


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## Slab (May 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is I won't know what the actual dress code is - jeans might be allowed - but I might not know and I'd still feel awkward.  Remember I'm only really talking about such as going to a club and going into the shop - or taking some pics of the clubhouse or course.  Yer general non-golfing public would just wander up and not give a toss.
		
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I'd imagine you're more likely of falling foul of rules about taking the picture than wearing jeans, you'd be surprised at the places where you need prior permission (sometimes in writing) just to take a photograph of seemingly non sensitive locations


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## SugarPenguin (May 21, 2015)

I was a member of a club where you had to wear shoes and trousers to be allowed into the clubhouse - regardless of golf so I do understand where you are coming from.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Next up and sure to really stir things will probably be a push for a 'full blown' tee booking system.
		
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And spookily as predicted - today a message from our Captain - tee booking system to be piloted from 4th July for 2 months. 2,3 or 4 balls can book tee on Saturdays and Sundays between 7:30am and 11:30am. No starting from alternate start (10th tee) in this period. Bookings at club or on-line opening 2 weeks in advance.

Captain stresses that it is a pilot and accepts that it will be contentious.

Indeed

We'll see.


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## JustOne (May 21, 2015)

StrangelyBrown said:



			I'm glad that there was no interview when I joined. I look "alternative",
		
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Gonna need a pic to see what 'alternative' means...... :mmm:

:thup:


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## Hacker Khan (May 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Funny enough just arrived at Southport and wandered up to find Hillside. Went past Royal Birkdale and I wanted to go in and get a few pics and one of me in front of the famous clubhouse but as I'd driven up in jeans didn't think it was appropriate to go even though I had no intention of using the clubhouse and facilities. We did have a jeans rule for a while and I had the same vibes from older members when HID and I turned up in them. Funny enough it has since been rescinded, mainly by block voting from the seniors at the AGM
		
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When I saw The Mona Lisa and Venus de Milo I had jeans on. Plus I'm pretty sure I had them on to see the great Wall of China, the statue of liberty and ayers rock.  And whilst I know these experiences are not as culturally significant as going in a golf club house to take a picture, I think I got away with it .


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			When I saw The Mona Lisa and Venus de Milo I had jeans on. Plus I'm pretty sure I had them on to see the great Wall of China, the statue of liberty and ayers rock.  And whilst I know these experiences are not as culturally significant as going in a golf club house to take a picture, I think I got away with it . 

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Rebel!


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			When I saw The Mona Lisa and Venus de Milo I had jeans on. Plus I'm pretty sure I had them on to see the great Wall of China, the statue of liberty and ayers rock.  And whilst I know these experiences are not as culturally significant as going in a golf club house to take a picture, I think I got away with it . 

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When I saw Michelangelo's David I had cargo shorts on!!!!!!!!


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## North Mimms (May 22, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			When I saw Michelangelo's David I had cargo shorts on!!!!!!!!
		
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You were still wearing more than David...


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## bluewolf (May 22, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			You were still wearing more than David...
		
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I was fairly smug after seeing him too


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## Stuart_C (May 25, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I was fairly smug after seeing him too 

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Are you saying that "David" is almost a woman??:rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And spookily as predicted - today a message from our Captain - tee booking system to be piloted from 4th July for 2 months. 2,3 or 4 balls can book tee on Saturdays and Sundays between 7:30am and 11:30am. No starting from alternate start (10th tee) in this period. Bookings at club or on-line opening 2 weeks in advance.

Captain stresses that it is a pilot and accepts that it will be contentious.

Indeed

We'll see.
		
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And as predicted - uproar!  Folks threatening to leave etc blah etc blah. I'm saying - let's just see - it's a 2 month pilot.  

That said - anyone got any ideas how to run a Sat morn roll up that can have between 12 and 36 folks turn up - when you have a tee booking system in place.


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## rosecott (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as predicted - uproar!  Folks threatening to leave etc blah etc blah. I'm saying - let's just see - it's a 2 month pilot.  

That said - anyone got any ideas how to run a Sat morn roll up that can have between 12 and 36 folks turn up - when you have a tee booking system in place.
		
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Your best bet is to get someone to come forward as the designated roll-up organiser. If the committee agree, he could be allowed to pre-book tee-times based on his best estimate of the number of tees needed - he could ask people to text him if they wanted to play. For that to work, he would have to be allowed to book before booking was opened to the ordinary member.


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## chellie (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as predicted - uproar!  Folks threatening to leave etc blah etc blah. I'm saying - let's just see - it's a 2 month pilot.  

That said - anyone got any ideas how to run a Sat morn roll up that can have between 12 and 36 folks turn up - when you have a tee booking system in place.
		
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Our ladies roll up is on a Tuesday. Tee times can't be booked anymore in advance than normal times though so it's booked the usual week in advance. The lady who organises it is happy to be at the club for 8.00am when the tee times go live. She books four times in the pro shop with four different ladies names as the main booking on each time. The other spaces on each slot are reserved. We usually manage to get similar times although sometimes it can end up being an hour earlier than we'd choose. Our roll up is only ever done over nine holes though and say 20 ladies turned up (with only 16 slots booked) we can usually get some out on the back nine. 

Only other way I can think of is if one person would commit to booking the same time each week from home, next person booking the next time etc etc. eg one book 8.00am and reserve all slots for that time. Next one book 8.08 etc etc

Hope you know what I mean


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## Liverbirdie (May 26, 2015)

rosecott said:



			Your best bet is to get someone to come forward as the designated roll-up organiser. If the committee agree, he could be allowed to pre-book tee-times based on his best estimate of the number of tees needed - he could ask people to text him if they wanted to play. For that to work, he would have to be allowed to book before booking was opened to the ordinary member.
		
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The club may give a trusted member a "super-user" status so that they can access the booking system from behind the scenes.

You can but ask.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

Thanks all for suggestions - and it looks like we'll be going down the route of roll-up organiser getting in first thing sheet is opened for bookings two weeks in advance.  We can't really book 8 tee times - and I think even 6 would be pushing things.  The whole ethos of the club is that you can turn up with a mate and play in the middle of any roll-up - just you and your mate and not part of the roll up.  As soon as the tee is block booked that flexibility would disappear.  So maybe we'll pre-book 4 tee times then front and back load that block according to numbers turning up.


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## upsidedown (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And as predicted - uproar!  Folks threatening to leave etc blah etc blah. I'm saying - let's just see - it's a 2 month pilot.  

That said - anyone got any ideas how to run a Sat morn roll up that can have between 12 and 36 folks turn up - when you have a tee booking system in place.
		
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With our roll ups on weekdays if you want to play you book individually in and around the tee times then roll up in clubhouse half an hour before first tee time for balls to be drawn for partners, sometimes there are a few too many (3-4) who haven't got their names down but as we go off straight after each other we can normally accommodate this :thup:


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## 6inchcup (May 26, 2015)

upsidedown said:



			With our roll ups on weekdays if you want to play you book individually in and around the tee times then roll up in clubhouse half an hour before first tee time for balls to be drawn for partners, sometimes there are a few too many (3-4) who haven't got their names down but as we go off straight after each other we can normally accommodate this :thup:
		
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seems a bit of a faff,why do we join a members club,for me it was to turn up any day any time and be on the course within 30 mins,play 9 have a coffee and something to eat ( if i wanted ) have a catch up with friends then nip out for a few more holes,that is what i pay my money for not to book a game 2 weeks in advance or turn up and hope i get a game,may as well play at a muni if thats the case.


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## Farneyman (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			seems a bit of a faff,why do we join a members club,for me it was to turn up any day any time and be on the course within 30 mins,.
		
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Whats happens if there are 2 dozen others with the same idea???

Benefit of checking the online booking system straightaway.


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## upsidedown (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			seems a bit of a faff,why do we join a members club,for me it was to turn up any day any time and be on the course within 30 mins,play 9 have a coffee and something to eat ( if i wanted ) have a catch up with friends then nip out for a few more holes,that is what i pay my money for not to book a game 2 weeks in advance or turn up and hope i get a game,may as well play at a muni if thats the case.
		
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No not really  a faff at all, it works really well. On Weds we have around 40 to 46 playing and Friday's 20 to 25. If you still want to roll up for a quick 9 you can check on line and see if there's a gap or it there are players you can join, or if you want just turn up and take pot luck.
We are a Members club but due to the popularity of our course with society's and County comps it pays to check to see how busy the course is


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## HomerJSimpson (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			seems a bit of a faff,why do we join a members club,for me it was to turn up any day any time and be on the course within 30 mins,play 9 have a coffee and something to eat ( if i wanted ) have a catch up with friends then nip out for a few more holes,that is what i pay my money for not to book a game 2 weeks in advance or turn up and hope i get a game,may as well play at a muni if thats the case.
		
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Have to say I tend to agree. Aside from competitions or club matches when tees are booked (and the odd society) it's a case of turn up and go up and if there's a queue you can either go off the tenth if no-one is finishing the ninth or wait. Most members know when the roll up groups go out in the week and at weekends and so can either opt to go out before or after if they don't wish to join in. I really like the flexibility to play when I want and not have to stress every week to try and get a time to suit and then consider other options including not being able to play should that time have already been taken


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			seems a bit of a faff,why do we join a members club,for me it was to turn up any day any time and be on the course within 30 mins,play 9 have a coffee and something to eat ( if i wanted ) have a catch up with friends then nip out for a few more holes,that is what i pay my money for not to book a game 2 weeks in advance or turn up and hope i get a game,may as well play at a muni if thats the case.
		
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Which is an argument being made


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## 6inchcup (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is an argument being made
		
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can i ask why they are bringing it in.


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## 6inchcup (May 26, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Have to say I tend to agree. Aside from competitions or club matches when tees are booked (and the odd society) it's a case of turn up and go up and if there's a queue you can either go off the tenth if no-one is finishing the ninth or wait. Most members know when the roll up groups go out in the week and at weekends and so can either opt to go out before or after if they don't wish to join in. I really like the flexibility to play when I want and not have to stress every week to try and get a time to suit and then consider other options including not being able to play should that time have already been taken
		
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you will get a bad name homer if you keep agreeing with me,LP will be on calling you names


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## HomerJSimpson (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			you will get a bad name homer if you keep agreeing with me,LP will be on calling you names

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Not for the first time but life's too short and there are too many good guys on here to worry. It was a fair reflection and accurate post you made!


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## 6inchcup (May 26, 2015)

:thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			can i ask why they are bringing it in.
		
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Primarily due to the increasing popularity of the roll up.  We have summer start times and the roll up as 3/4 balls couldn't go off until 11:30am, has worked fine until a few weeks ago we hit 38. And that was the tee solid for an hour and others turning up were cheesed off at not being able to go off until 12:30pm - and three groups went to start on 10th and that caused chaos and mega upset for those finishing 9. 

So for trial period start times for 2 and 3/4 groups dropped with booking for all introduced from 7:30 to 11:30


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## MadAdey (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks all for suggestions - and it looks like we'll be going down the route of roll-up organiser getting in first thing sheet is opened for bookings two weeks in advance.  We can't really book 8 tee times - and I think even 6 would be pushing things.  The whole ethos of the club is that you can turn up with a mate and play in the middle of any roll-up - just you and your mate and not part of the roll up.  As soon as the tee is block booked that flexibility would disappear.  So maybe we'll pre-book 4 tee times then front and back load that block according to numbers turning up.
		
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I detest this tee bookings system that clubs are all using now. One of the things I loved about private members clubs was just being able to turn up and get a game. With tee booking people just turn at the allotted time then go straight out. Your not going to have people hanging around waiting that enables you to find a 2/3 ball to try and team up with.

Is your club going to have some kind of penalty system for members who book tee times then do not use them. So for someone to block book is risking then getting penalized if all slots aren't used.


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## upsidedown (May 26, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			I detest this tee bookings system that clubs are all using now. One of the things I loved about private members clubs was just being able to turn up and get a game. With tee booking people just turn at the allotted time then go straight out. Your not going to have people hanging around waiting that enables you to find a 2/3 ball to try and team up with.

Is your club going to have some kind of penalty system for members who book tee times then do not use them. So for someone to block book is risking then getting penalized if all slots aren't used.
		
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Could always join up with them on line and be assured of a game ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

MadAdey said:



			I detest this tee bookings system that clubs are all using now. One of the things I loved about private members clubs was just being able to turn up and get a game. With tee booking people just turn at the allotted time then go straight out. Your not going to have people hanging around waiting that enables you to find a 2/3 ball to try and team up with.

Is your club going to have some kind of penalty system for members who book tee times then do not use them. So for someone to block book is risking then getting penalized if all slots aren't used.
		
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We are just going to see how it goes. I'm not going to try and predict outcomes as that is what too many are doing.  Yes we might find all tee times between 11 and 12 booked by 2 balls which would scupper the roll up - but I doubt that that will happen


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## duncan mackie (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are just going to see how it goes. I'm not going to try and predict outcomes as that is what too many are doing.  Yes we might find all tee times between 11 and 12 booked by 2 balls which would scupper the roll up - but I doubt that that will happen
		
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We had exactly the same situation with the roll up defeating itself with success that caused complaints about access (from mainly new members who wished to play together) and we have ended up with a combination book/roll up window/book situation on non - competition weekend days. The roll up has significantly reduced over the 3 years (and the reason for introducing he booking times is arguably no longer valid! Groups fragmented and organised themselves to book 2 or 3 times, others still turn up for a game etc etc. Many days there are also spaces vacant in the roll up period whilst all the bookable slots went early ie people who might otherwise have played don't. 

The great thing about 100% roll up time is that it does tend to ensure the maximum number of people get to play - even if some of them don't get exactly the slot they wanted and end up drinking more coffee and meeting other members. ....


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## HomerJSimpson (May 26, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are just going to see how it goes. I'm not going to try and predict outcomes as that is what too many are doing.  Yes we might find all tee times between 11 and 12 booked by 2 balls which would scupper the roll up - but I doubt that that will happen
		
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Does your course have the opportunity to tee off from two tees (1st and 10th). When we get large numbers we try and split the roll up over two tees although we go out much earlier than yours and so I can see how it may be difficult with golfers coming round having played nine holes to see several groups on the tee box.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

duncan mackie said:



			We had exactly the same situation with the roll up defeating itself with success that caused complaints about access (from mainly new members who wished to play together) and we have ended up with a combination book/roll up window/book situation on non - competition weekend days. The roll up has significantly reduced over the 3 years (and the reason for introducing he booking times is arguably no longer valid! Groups fragmented and organised themselves to book 2 or 3 times, others still turn up for a game etc etc. Many days there are also spaces vacant in the roll up period whilst all the bookable slots went early ie people who might otherwise have played don't. 

_*The great thing about 100% roll up time is that it does tend to ensure the maximum number of people get to play - even if some of them don't get exactly the slot they wanted and end up drinking more coffee and meeting other members. ....*_

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One of the reasons the roll-up is so popular is that it has always proved to be an excellent way for new members to get integrated in the club - and the club encouraged newbies to join us - and of course we welcomed folks with open arms.  But in the last year we have had a *lot * of new members - and so roll-up numbers have swollen to the point we are.  If you and a mate or mates turned up and didn't want to play in the roll-up you just got on the tee asap and took your turn in the middle of it - if you were at the first before any roll-up group then you went before them.  The roll-up had no issue having non roll-uppers in it's midst. 

What will happen I think is that say 20-30mins before we would have the roll-up draw for playing partners, if it looks like numbers will be significantly (or maybe even just a bit) more than the slots we have booked then those present will make mini-draws and start going out (assuming tee isn't booked by non roll-uppers). This will work but take away from the overall 'communal' all togetherness of the roll-up - and early arrivers will start playing in their own 2/3/4 balls prior to the formal draw - just the fragmentation you have indicated happened at your place.


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