# World Handicap System - FAQâ€™s



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 23, 2018)

Seen this and thought it maybe of interest, released this month, 

https://www.englandgolf.org/shared/get-file.ashx?id=32999&itemtype=document


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

Thanks for posting it!


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2018)

Cheers for that, interesting reading. I don't really like the sound of it, but I think it's just annoying for me having only been a club member for 19 months and just got used to how it works that they're then going to change it all. I'll just have to get my hcap as low as possible before I no longer understand how to. :lol:


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Cheers for that, interesting reading. I don't really like the sound of it, but I think it's just annoying for me having only been a club member for 19 months and just got used to how it works that they're then going to change it all. I'll just have to get my hcap as low as possible before I no longer understand how to. :lol:
		
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Just remember the main concept - best 8 from last 20

Having observed this (or very near) system in several other countries, it's pretty simple - especially if you play most of your golf at 1 club.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Just remember the main concept - best 8 from last 20

Having observed this (or very near) system in several other countries, it's pretty simple - especially if you play most of your golf at 1 club.
		
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Simple I'm sure, but will still take some getting used to. Going out and having a nightmare round of 110 would no longer mean an automatic 0.1 by the looks of it. 

And I'm probably understanding it wrong, but it seems like you could actually play above your handicap and still get cut - for example if your round was 5 over your playing handicap, but still better than your 8th best recent round?? Which is a bit mad. Again, I've probably got it wrong though. Sounds wrong. lol


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## upsidedown (Jul 23, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Simple I'm sure, but will still take some getting used to. Going out and having a nightmare round of 110 would no longer mean an automatic 0.1 by the looks of it. 

*And I'm probably understanding it wrong, but it seems like you could actually play above your handicap and still get cut - for example if your round was 5 over your playing handicap, but still better than your 8th best recent round?*? Which is a bit mad. Again, I've probably got it wrong though. Sounds wrong. lol
		
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Having played under a similar system in NZ I'd say that was very unlikely to happen.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			Having played under a similar system in NZ I'd say that was very unlikely to happen.
		
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It depends how often you enter tournaments surely? I'll take my scores as an example, it may or may not work, I don't know.
My best 8 gross scores of my last 20 competition rounds are, from oldest to latest: 92, 88, 92, 94, 94, 95, 87, 84.

So the average is 90.75. My handicap is 20 and the par is 68. I could shoot 91, which would be 3 over my handicap, but that bring the 'best 8 rounds' average down to 90.25. I don't know how they will do the working, rounding up/down etc, but in theory it seems possible to me that you could shoot over handicap and get cut. Particularly if someone's best eight scores had more variance than mine, obviously.

Edit: Perhaps this will less and less possible over time as things even out.


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## upsidedown (Jul 23, 2018)

I think you are right that in time the more scores will even it out, as in your example your best 8 include 3 above your handicap so as time progress they will be replaced with scores more in tune with the handicap.You may also find that 90.75 and 90.25 fall into the same bracket for the index, from memory the brackets dont change at .5.


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## patricks148 (Jul 23, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			It depends how often you enter tournaments surely? I'll take my scores as an example, it may or may not work, I don't know.
My best 8 gross scores of my last 20 competition rounds are, from oldest to latest: 92, 88, 92, 94, 94, 95, 87, 84.

So the average is 90.75. My handicap is 20 and the par is 68. I could shoot 91, which would be 3 over my handicap, but that bring the 'best 8 rounds' average down to 90.25. I don't know how they will do the working, rounding up/down etc, but in theory it seems possible to me that you could shoot over handicap and get cut. Particularly if someone's best eight scores had more variance than mine, obviously.

Edit: Perhaps this will less and less possible over time as things even out.
		
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par isn't relevant your handicap is off the CSS/SSS, when it changes it will be off the slope


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## Grant85 (Jul 23, 2018)

Interesting. 

By my reckoning, if your handicap was bang on (e.g. 10.0) at a SSS of 70 you would need to shoot 5 shots under your handicap to move down a stroke.


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			It depends how often you enter tournaments surely? I'll take my scores as an example, it may or may not work, I don't know.
My best 8 gross scores of my last 20 competition rounds are, from oldest to latest: 92, 88, 92, 94, 94, 95, 87, 84.

So the average is 90.75. My handicap is 20 and the par is 68. I could shoot 91, which would be 3 over my handicap, but that bring the 'best 8 rounds' average down to 90.25. I don't know how they will do the working, rounding up/down etc, *but in theory it seems possible to me that you could shoot over handicap and get cut. Particularly if someone's best eight scores had more variance than mine, obviously*.

Edit: Perhaps this will less and less possible over time as things even out.
		
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Yes, that can indeed happen!

But indeed, likely to happen less the more rounds that are recorded!


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			par isn't relevant your handicap is off the CSS/SSS, when it changes it will be off the slope
		
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I know that but it wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make, that you can play over your handicap and still get a cut.


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## Orikoru (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Yes, that can indeed happen!

But indeed, likely to happen less the more rounds that are recorded!
		
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I haven't done the working but it also seems like someone who was rapidly improving would take longer to get their handicap down in the new system. The way it is now, someone can have a blinding round and get cut 2 or 3 shots immediately. But with the new system it would simply lower their average score and maybe they'd only go down one shot at that time.

Dunno if that's a good or bad thing really, just thinking aloud. It would stop people getting stuck on handicaps that are too low for them, based on one amazing round. But also could enable people to play off higher handicaps for longer.

Will be a steep learning curve anyway!


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## duncan mackie (Jul 24, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			I haven't done the working but it also seems like someone who was rapidly improving would take longer to get their handicap down in the new system. The way it is now, someone can have a blinding round and get cut 2 or 3 shots immediately. But with the new system it would simply lower their average score and maybe they'd only go down one shot at that time.

Dunno if that's a good or bad thing really, just thinking aloud. It would stop people getting stuck on handicaps that are too low for them, based on one amazing round. But also could enable people to play off higher handicaps for longer.

Will be a steep learning curve anyway!
		
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The underlying numbers pretty closely reflect the current CONGU algorithm. In pure terms a rapidly improving, or failing,  golfer will also move at about the same speed under either if you take into account ESR and the extra shot for constant failure to play to handicap. In practice there are also additional control factors that will further smooth things.

I really don't see much difference coming out of it - CONGU has 're written the system to reflect it's system beautifully.   The one bit that people will find a touch strange at first is in playing from a different handicap when playing from different tees on their own course...but in underlying terms nothing is different.


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## IanG (Jul 24, 2018)

They say 'Annual Review' will still happen - I wonder how they will implement any adjustments needed as a result of the AR  given the new best 8 from 20 calculation.


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## Aussie Swinger (Jul 24, 2018)

I have played on the WHS system for the last year since moving to Australia. In my opinion, it is a far superior system in that it can adjust itself far quicker to reflect your form and ability. I have been going through a really poor spell and quickly regained 2 shots above my initial  5 Handicap. Iâ€™m now coming out the other side, playing better, but not getting the ridiculous cut to handicap based on one card. I can highly recommend looking at the golf Australia website on handicapping as itâ€™s exactly whatâ€™s coming to the Uk, and breaks it down very well. One thing Iâ€™ve not seen mentioned that I think will happen in the Uk is that your best aggregate 8 scores will be multiplied by 0.93 to give you you actual playing handicap, and also you can not go up by more than 5 Handicap in anyone calendar year. As I said, I think itâ€™s fairer, but check the website for yourself for the in depth breakdown.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 24, 2018)

Just looking forward to my Friday sessions counting towards handicap and any other knock Iâ€™ll have. Supplementals cost me Â£5.


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## Imurg (Jul 24, 2018)

Jamesbrown said:



			Just looking forward to my Friday sessions counting towards handicap and any other knock Iâ€™ll have. Supplementals cost me Â£5.
		
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Ours cost a quid and I'm still waiting for mine to be processed from 3 weeks back....!!!!


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## Grant85 (Jul 24, 2018)

I still don't see the incentive or need to include supplemental rounds. 

They are saying it's still very much a personal choice if you delcare a round as a counter before you go out. In reality, very few people will do this because if you have a good round, you get cut and have no chance of winning a prize. 

There will still be clear opportunity for people to only play 2 or 3 medals a year to keep their handicap going. Albeit, if an 18 handicapper suddenly shoots 100 in a medal then he will go up more than 0.1.

Not that that's a massive problem, as has been discussed. 

Also - for new players - I think they would change their handicap much quicker. 
Lets say they have played their 3 rounds to get started and are in at 20. 

Obviously their next medal, their score will count as 25% of all available info, so potential that they would come down a bit quicker than under the 0.4 down / 0.1 up system.


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## patricks148 (Jul 24, 2018)

does the US system still take every round into account or are they getting the same as us?

by the looks of it nothing is going to change much except how its calculated. My understanding was it was brought in to allow our Elite players get lower handicaps to match the US as some were struggling to get in though the ballot in many elite comps


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## duncan mackie (Jul 24, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			does the US system still take every round into account or are they getting the same as us?

by the looks of it nothing is going to change much except how its calculated. My understanding was it was brought in to allow our Elite players get lower handicaps to match the US as some were struggling to get in though the ballot in many elite comps
		
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No; yes; that is one view presented by one interested group.

Another view is that it's been implemented to enable more cross system handicap competition.

Yet another revolves around software costs being reduced because of the wider pool.

To an earlier post, AR still required due to the  inclusion of a number of fudge factors that have been incorporated, nominally to prevent  people abusing the system  (you can instigate fast upward system moves otherwise).


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## jim8flog (Jul 24, 2018)

IanG said:



			They say 'Annual Review' will still happen - I wonder how they will implement any adjustments needed as a result of the AR  given the new best 8 from 20 calculation.
		
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 The initial implementation is easy you just change the handicap with a AR note.

What happens to keep the new handicap around the right level is going to be another thing.


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## jim8flog (Jul 24, 2018)

I did the maths on mine and my handicap changed by 0.1.

Our handicap secretary reckons a lot of the ladies are in for the biggest increase.


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## IanG (Jul 24, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			The initial implementation is easy you just change the handicap with a AR note.

What happens to keep the new handicap around the right level is going to be another thing.
		
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Exactly, how does the AR adjustment feed into the subsequent best 8 from 20 calculations thereafter.


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## Franco (Jul 24, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Seen this and thought it maybe of interest, released this month, 

https://www.englandgolf.org/shared/get-file.ashx?id=32999&itemtype=document

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Unfortunately the link is currently unavailable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 24, 2018)

Franco said:



			Unfortunately the link is currently unavailable.
		
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Just clicked on it and was fine


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## upsidedown (Jul 24, 2018)

Franco said:



			Unfortunately the link is currently unavailable.
		
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Working fine here, it downloads  for you :thup:


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## Aussie Swinger (Jul 24, 2018)

I think and see most posts on here are naturally erring to it being a negative, probably due to lack of information available in the UK on the subject at the moment, and the old fear of change or the unknown. In actuality you will see very little difference from the old system. Where I have really found it a positive is the fact that I play competitions on a fair few different courses with varying degrees of slope rating her in Australia. (My home course sits around the default slope rating). The allocation of sometimes an extra shot on a really difficult course (high slope) and losing one on a relatively easier course (low slope value) based on 'daily handicap' appears to me at least to make for a less of a 'field spread' and a much fairer system (excepting the truly great scores or particularly bad rounds). It is important to remember that handicaps, either on the CONGU or WHS system is really based about your playing POTENTIAL not your perceived AVERAGE score you have each week. I think this gets lost on most golfers...


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## duncan mackie (Jul 25, 2018)

Aussie Swinger said:



			I think and see most posts on here are naturally erring to it being a negative, probably due to lack of information available in the UK on the subject at the moment, and the old fear of change or the unknown. In actuality you will see very little difference from the old system. Where I have really found it a positive is the fact that I play competitions on a fair few different courses with varying degrees of slope rating her in Australia. (My home course sits around the default slope rating). The allocation of sometimes an extra shot on a really difficult course (high slope) and losing one on a relatively easier course (low slope value) based on 'daily handicap' appears to me at least to make for a less of a 'field spread' and a much fairer system (excepting the truly great scores or particularly bad rounds). It is important to remember that handicaps, either on the CONGU or WHS system is really based about your playing POTENTIAL not your perceived AVERAGE score you have each week. I think this gets lost on most golfers...
		
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Well CONGU is highly focused on underlying capability, but has with ESR and increases, moved slightly towards current form. USGA system is based on current form.

Any change in the WHS will be reflected in the fiddle factors around max increases and decreases.


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## Grant85 (Jul 25, 2018)

I also think no one is really mentioning the main benefits of the new system is that it will be a world based system. 

You could go on holiday and play in an Open competition or a scramble - potentially very important for people who go on holiday with their families that is not a real golf holiday. Possibly much easier to get a game with other players. 

Not sure if this is something that will develop in practice, but for me it would seem like a good advantage and if I was running a resort course over here I would be considering putting on competitions for tourists to play while they are over.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			I also think no one is really mentioning the main benefits of the new system is that it will be a world based system. 

You could go on holiday and play in an Open competition or a scramble - potentially very important for people who go on holiday with their families that is not a real golf holiday. Possibly much easier to get a game with other players. 

Not sure if this is something that will develop in practice, but for me it would seem like a good advantage and if I was running a resort course over here I would be considering putting on competitions for tourists to play while they are over.
		
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Handicapping hasn't been a barrier to European resorts, or clubs,  running competitions with both CONGU and EGA handicaps playing. What will (should.....) change is the arbitrary reduction in CONGU players handicaps over and above the normal calculation process (which already exists).

Handicapping is rarely the real barrier!


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## TheJezster (Jul 26, 2018)

I've read through the documentation and I think it could be a good thing.  It might make it easier to get your handicap down, especially at venues where it's currently harder to do so (low CSS etc)

Looking at my previous 20 results my HC would reduce from 11.1 to 8.5 so that's quite a difference...

I'd imagine that there will be a lot of people having their handicaps adjusted if that's anything to go by!


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## MadAdey (Jul 26, 2018)

I think it is a great thing. Having moved over here 4 years ago I have learned to love this system over the one back home. Slope and index rating every tee at every course is a great thing. It gets rid of the old "my handicap travels well" because you play at a tough course. Seen that often when I was younger and played at Stoke Rochford that is quite a tough course. Would go somewhere else like the course in my home town Melton Mowbray and easily beat friends that had a handicap there, as the stroke allocation was never correct.

At my place I can move back to the Tour tees, shoot 6 over and still be inside my handicap, because the course plays 4.3 over par. Unlike the UK where that tee box could not ever be rated that much over par. 

People have said about people not putting cards in to protect their handicap. Over here places have 2 ways to battle that. The first is to make competitions only open to players who have submitted 'X' amount of cards in the last 2 months. The second is that they make you play off the lowest handicap you have held in the last 12 months to stop people putting bogus cards in to get their handicap raised. Another thing that happens is any cards you submit in competitions gets entered into the handicapping system, even when playing at another course. So that stops people playing in Opens away from their home club and not submitting scores.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 26, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			I think it is a great thing. Having moved over here 4 years ago I have learned to love this system over the one back home. Slope and index rating every tee at every course is a great thing. It gets rid of the old "my handicap travels well" because you play at a tough course. Seen that often when I was younger and played at Stoke Rochford that is quite a tough course. Would go somewhere else like the course in my home town Melton Mowbray and easily beat friends that had a handicap there, as the stroke allocation was never correct.

At my place I can move back to the Tour tees, shoot 6 over and still be inside my handicap, because the course plays 4.3 over par. Unlike the UK where that tee box could not ever be rated that much over par. 

People have said about people not putting cards in to protect their handicap. Over here places have 2 ways to battle that. The first is to make competitions only open to players who have submitted 'X' amount of cards in the last 2 months. The second is that they make you play off the lowest handicap you have held in the last 12 months to stop people putting bogus cards in to get their handicap raised. Another thing that happens is any cards you submit in competitions gets entered into the handicapping system, even when playing at another course. So that stops people playing in Opens away from their home club and not submitting scores.
		
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I completely agree that it will be a good thing.

Handicapping has moved on already from days when you were handicapped to par in the UK, and the ubiquitous travelling handicap issue was at its worst. However you can't get away from the fact that people who regularily play tough long courses are better placed to take on any course, regardless of handicap.

Whilst we still don't have many courses with the range of teeing grounds that many US courses do there are a few that have ratings significantly over par - Hoylake blacks are about a 78 SSS!

All individual competition cards are already entered into a players handicap record as well, unless the organisers have arranged for them not to be qualifying rounds, and system derived increases (and decreases) over about 2 will have to be committee approved when the system is brought in (which seems to have been instigated in response to some of the US experiences you reference as well as transistion concerns.

Fundamentally it should be a good thing - my overriding concern remains that people will get wrapped up in  non issue matters associated with change (you only have to look at the decade of discussion on match play allowances, and we still aren't at the correct figures that the rest of the world  now use!).

Only time will tell now


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## MadAdey (Jul 26, 2018)

I agree that people who play regularly on a tough will always be better equipped. But when you turn up at an easy course and you handicap is adjusteds from 10 to 6, that will counter it. Where at the minute you turn up at a course still playing from 10 even though this place you would probably have a 6 handicap if it was your home course. 

I've seen it in club matches where some turn up with maybe a 5 handicap from an easy course and struggles to play to 10 on the harder one. At least his handicap would be adjusted at the harder course to give him a chance.


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## Dasit (Jul 26, 2018)

I can only see good things coming from this

The current system is broke in my opinion. People are given a handicap based on the competition rounds they play, some times it is a bare minimum amount played as many clubs just donâ€™t offer many.

Sone people also tend to not play their best golf when in a completion... but then this handicap they have is used for all areas of golf...

Not a fit for service system at the moment so welcoming the change.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 27, 2018)

I presume this system will still be based on stableford conversion or something similar rather than purely on gross scores? I ask this because if it is just based on gross scores then it would clearly be open to manipulation.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 27, 2018)

ExRabbit said:



			I presume this system will still be based on stableford conversion or something similar rather than purely on gross scores? I ask this because if it is just based on gross scores then it would clearly be open to manipulation.
		
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https://www.randa.org/News/2018/02/World-Handicap-System-features-announced

Ok - I found that now.

'A limit of Net Double Bogey on the maximum hole score (for handicapping purposes only)'


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

Dasit said:



			I can only see good things coming from this

The current system is broke in my opinion. People are given a handicap based on the competition rounds they play, some times it is a bare minimum amount played as many clubs just donâ€™t offer many.

Sone people also tend to not play their best golf when in a completion... but then this handicap they have is used for all areas of golf...

Not a fit for service system at the moment so welcoming the change.
		
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but this isn't really going to change, you still will have to specify a Q round before, we are not going to take every round like other places have been. So in essence you will still have the pressure of having a card in hand as such from what i understand?


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

With the slope rating being being adapted, anyone know what will happen in regards to RO and tougher than normal conditions instance?

Some of the comps i play  are occasionally Reduction Only if its really windy, which is not that unusual on Links courses, anyone know if anything like this will be used in the new system?


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## IanG (Jul 27, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			With the slope rating being being adapted, anyone know what will happen in regards to RO and tougher than normal conditions instance?

Some of the comps i play  are occasionally Reduction Only if its really windy, which is not that unusual on Links courses, anyone know if anything like this will be used in the new system?
		
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The FAQ linked to in the original post says there will no longer be any comps that end up RO.


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			I agree that people who play regularly on a tough will always be better equipped. But when you turn up at an easy course and you handicap is adjusteds from 10 to 6, that will counter it. Where at the minute you turn up at a course still playing from 10 even though this place you would probably have a 6 handicap if it was your home course. 

I've seen it in club matches where some turn up with maybe a 5 handicap from an easy course and struggles to play to 10 on the harder one. At least his handicap would be adjusted at the harder course to give him a chance.
		
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This aspect confuses me. How would I work that out then? I don't really play many competitive rounds on other courses, but say me and my pals were having a friendly knock on a tougher course than our home one, and we wanted to work out what our adjusted handicaps should be. How on earth would we work it out?


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## TheJezster (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			This aspect confuses me. How would I work that out then? I don't really play many competitive rounds on other courses, but say me and my pals were having a friendly knock on a tougher course than our home one, and we wanted to work out what our adjusted handicaps should be. How on earth would we work it out?
		
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That's the easy bit.  Simply look at the Slope rating on the course (it will be shown everywhere, including the card) and use your handicap index to determine what actual handicap you'll be playing off for those tees.

Don't worry about that, that's very simple


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2018)

TheJezster said:



			That's the easy bit.  Simply look at the Slope rating on the course (it will be shown everywhere, including the card) and use your handicap index to determine what actual handicap you'll be playing off for those tees.

Don't worry about that, that's very simple 

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What the hell is a slope rating? And how would you relate that to you handicap? You made it _sound_ so simple without actually explaining it at all, lol.


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

IanG said:



			The FAQ linked to in the original post says there will no longer be any comps that end up RO.
		
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i saw that, but it just says "no" i'd like to know what if anything will happen in these instances where it would go to RO, its all very well with the slope, but thats not much different to what an SSS is with tee's now. 

get it quite often 30 MPH wind hardly anyone breaks 80, so if there is no system to take this into account it will just show up as a bad round?


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## Cake (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			What the hell is a slope rating? And how would you relate that to you handicap? You made it _sound_ so simple without actually explaining it at all, lol.
		
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As I understand it the Slope Rating is a new measure of how difficult a course is (from a given set of tees) relative to another course (or the same course but different tees), so it can be used to adjust your handicap index to what it should be going around any course.

I believe that there will be a lookup grid at each club that says for Handicap Index 17.5-18.5 (no idea what the boundaries actually would be) then your playing handicap off the whites would be 20 and off the yellows would be 18 (or something like that)

If that is how it works then as Jezster says it should be a simple lookup on a table against the tees you were playing that day


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			What the hell is a slope rating? And how would you relate that to you handicap? You made it _sound_ so simple without actually explaining it at all, lol.
		
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all your tee's will be slope rated, most courses that get overseas visitors already have this done.

For instance my course is par 71 SSS73 US course rating 73 slope 134. so effectively my handicap is 5 but i can shoot 7 over and play to handicap. but if in went to another club where the slope is lower i would play a lower handicap. You get a sheet with the slope on and how many shots you get in relation to that.... i think!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

I'm not really understanding the WHS system enough yet to be able to work out whether I have to adjust my thinking as I come down the home straight and I am playing close to my handicap - or might be just over.  

At the moment in a qualifying round I usually aim to play to within my buffer (for me 2 shots) since if I manage to do that I know pretty certain (assuming CSS does not go down) that my handicap will not go up.  In the past I'd always just 'go for it' if I was one or two over my handicap coming down the final stretch as 'buffer' thinking was (stupidly) not part of how I thought - and then I realised how to stop the 0.1s 

But I just can't get my head around how I should be thinking with WHS if I am scoring to, or just over, my handicap - so what strategy should I adopt.  I am guessing that in the first instance I should go out knowing my 8th best score - what the CSS was that day - and what my handicap was at the time?

Or does WHS not make any difference whatsoever to my thinking


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 27, 2018)

Cake said:



			As I understand it the Slope Rating is a new measure of how difficult a course is (from a given set of tees) relative to another course (or the same course but different tees), so it can be used to adjust your handicap index to what it should be going around any course.

I believe that there will be a lookup grid at each club that says for Handicap Index 17.5-18.5 (no idea what the boundaries actually would be) then your playing handicap off the whites would be 20 and off the yellows would be 18 (or something like that)

If that is how it works then as Jezster says it should be a simple lookup on a table against the tees you were playing that day
		
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Hopefully, in this modern era, there will be a handy app where we input the information and it tells us the end result.


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not really understanding the WHS system enough yet to be able to work out whether I have to adjust my thinking as I come down the home straight and I am playing close to my handicap - or might be just over.  

At the moment in a qualifying round I usually aim to play to within my buffer (for me 2 shots) since if I manage to do that I know pretty certain (assuming CSS does not go down) that my handicap will not go up.  In the past I'd always just 'go for it' if I was one or two over my handicap coming down the final stretch as 'buffer' thinking was (stupidly) not part of how I thought - and then I realised how to stop the 0.1s 

But I just can't get my head around how I should be thinking with WHS if I am scoring to, or just over, my handicap - so what strategy should I adopt.  I am guessing that in the first instance I should go out knowing my 8th best score - what the CSS was that day - and what my handicap was at the time?

Or does WHS not make any difference whatsoever to my thinking
		
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Why not just aim to get the best score you can and forget your handicap altogether?


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## Wabinez (Jul 27, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i saw that, but it just says "no" i'd like to know what if anything will happen in these instances where it would go to RO, its all very well with the slope, but thats not much different to what an SSS is with tee's now. 

get it quite often 30 MPH wind hardly anyone breaks 80, so if there is no system to take this into account it will just show up as a bad round?
		
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If it is worse than your 8th best score, it won't make any difference to your handicap, as far as I can tell. From that FAQ, there is a Course Conditions Adjustment, which may even things out a touch


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i saw that, but it just says "no" i'd like to know what if anything will happen in these instances where it would go to RO, its all very well with the slope, but thats not much different to what an SSS is with tee's now. 

get it quite often 30 MPH wind hardly anyone breaks 80, so if there is no system to take this into account it will just show up as a bad round?
		
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Basically there will be a version of the CSS calculation  (It's not detailed well but you can look at the Aus version of the USGA system to see how the principle gets applied).

Ultimately you don't need RO because such extreme rounds can, statistically, simply be accepted as never forming an active part of a players handicap calculation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Why not just aim to get the best score you can and forget your handicap altogether? 

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My point is simply that I might not *want* to go for the best score.  

OK - I decide to go for it and try to get under my handicap - but I make a mess of the last few holes and end up well over and outside my buffer.  So I go up 0.1.  

I did this for years until I realised that if I felt I wasn't in a position to get a podium slot it is better for me to just aim to protect my handicap against a 0.1 by trying to play within my buffer.  I was a 0.1 drip-dripper as my handicap went up frustratingly.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			I agree that people who play regularly on a tough will always be better equipped. But when you turn up at an easy course and you handicap is adjusteds from 10 to 6, that will counter it. Where at the minute you turn up at a course still playing from 10 even though this place you would probably have a 6 handicap if it was your home course. 

I've seen it in club matches where some turn up with maybe a 5 handicap from an easy course and struggles to play to 10 on the harder one. At least his handicap would be adjusted at the harder course to give him a chance.
		
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I'm really trying not to seem to disagree, but all of this already exists in practice.

For example I'm playing in a Q comp tomorrow where, to par, I'm handicapped to 15. Last week I was playing a Q comp on the same course, but different tees, with a handicap of 10 to the same par figure (and I can be as low as 8 of the forward rated tees)
I'm not expecting the slope ratings of these tees, on that course, to change things significantly because of the nature of the course.


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## TheJezster (Jul 27, 2018)

Yes, but most people when playing at away courses don't play them as qualifiers.  This would then follow what MacAdey was saying.

Golf trips for example, if its a difficult course, we'll have more shots to help us get as close to 36 as possible.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

TheJezster said:



			Yes, but most people when playing at away courses don't play them as qualifiers.  This would then follow what MacAdey was saying.

Golf trips for example, if its a difficult course, we'll have more shots to help us get as close to 36 as possible.
		
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Possibly unwittingly you have summed up the single biggest issue with the current CONGU system!

People have in their heads that 36 points is a fair reflection of their handicap (more being better etc). 

As to the competitive nature of the golf trip -  that will generally remain neutral for most, but there may be (significant) differences for the bogey golfers coming from very different course types.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is simply that I might not *want* to go for the best score.  

OK - I decide to go for it and try to get under my handicap - but I make a mess of the last few holes and end up well over and outside my buffer.  So I go up 0.1.  

I did this for years until I realised that if I felt I wasn't in a position to get a podium slot it is better for me to just aim to protect my handicap against a 0.1 by trying to play within my buffer.  I was a 0.1 drip-dripper as my handicap went up frustratingly.
		
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Going forward you can just ignore it then - so you should score better in comps overall!

No more 0.1 and no more guarantee that any returned score will always have some impact on you handicap (obviously except buffer previously)


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 27, 2018)

IanG said:



			The FAQ linked to in the original post says there will no longer be any comps that end up RO.
		
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I was chatting to our secretary the other week about this and he is very concerned on bad weather days (very frequent around these parts) people are just going to cancel and not bother.

At present if its a day likely to be RO you will still get over 100 in the comp.


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## Grant85 (Jul 27, 2018)

saving_par said:



			I was chatting to our secretary the other week about this and he is very concerned on bad weather days (very frequent around these parts) people are just going to cancel and not bother.

At present if its a day likely to be RO you will still get over 100 in the comp.
		
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Surely the SSS for a single day comp would still come into play? 

Also, as others have mentioned - once you are up and running with 20 active scores in play, a very bad round is probably not going to change your handicap at all. Assuming you have a fair spread of scores throughout the 20.


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

saving_par said:



			I was chatting to our secretary the other week about this and he is very concerned on bad weather days (very frequent around these parts) people are just going to cancel and not bother.

At present if its a day likely to be RO you will still get over 100 in the comp.
		
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you might find every one who's cat 1 at yours end up as 15 handicaps if you have a windy few months:rofl:


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Surely the SSS for a single day comp would still come into play? 

Also, as others have mentioned - once you are up and running with 20 active scores in play, a very bad round is probably not going to change your handicap at all. Assuming you have a fair spread of scores throughout the 20.
		
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Saving par' s sec is right to be concerned. For elite golfers handicap is everything and based o  historical evidence many simply won't play a competition where they feel there is no upside (where mere mortals just head out to compete and take any handicap consequences that may, or may not, happen.
However, there's little point in double guessing what might happen - clubs will respond to whatever players choose to do in practice.


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## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			What the hell is a slope rating? And how would you relate that to you handicap? You made it _sound_ so simple without actually explaining it at all, lol.
		
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It is simple (this figures are not exact but just to show easy it is)
in basic terms say your club is slope rated at 1 and you play a course which is rated 0.9 you get 9/10s of your handicap if you play a course which is rated 1.1 you get 1.1 times your handicap.

No doubt there will be easy to use look up tables similar to those used to calculate stroke allowances.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 27, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			you might find every one who's cat 1 at yours end up as 15 handicaps if you have a windy few months:rofl:
		
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I'm certainly playing like one


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## Orikoru (Jul 27, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			It is simple (this figures are not exact but just to show easy it is)
in basic terms say your club is slope rated at 1 and you play a course which is rated 0.9 you get 9/10s of your handicap if you play a course which is rated 1.1 you get 1.1 times your handicap.

*No doubt there will be easy to use look up tables similar* to those used to calculate stroke allowances.
		
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I do hope so!


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## jusme (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			I do hope so!
		
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Why is it difficult? You get to a course, look up your index and they will tell you your playing handicap that day. Reading is the only knowledge required to use it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Going forward you can just ignore it then - so you should score better in comps overall!

No more 0.1 and no more guarantee that any returned score will always have some impact on you handicap (obviously except buffer previously)
		
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OK - I get that - but when I am standing on say the 16th tee and I am level with my handicap - should I be thinking about playing conservatively and hopefully knock it round in my handicap - or attack the course as it doesn't matter if my score is way over my handicap in the end.  

As I will always be wanting my handicap to come down all I might want to do is make it better than my 8th best of the previous 20.  But will it be easy enough for me to know or to work out what I have to shoot for it to be better that that 8th best - given that that 8th best could have been shot ages ago on a course I'd forgotten about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

jusme said:



			Why is it difficult? You get to a course, look up your index and they will tell you your playing handicap that day. Reading is the only knowledge required to use it
		
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You do realise that for such as I of 45+ years playing - having a variable handicap according to the course to be played is a massive cultural change...


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## cliveb (Jul 27, 2018)

A few things I didn't see addressed in the FAQ:

1. Currently the way a score affects your handicap is driven by a differential from CSS. Will the new system also use a differential from some "target score" (sorry, I don't know what the official term for it might be)?

2. Since the slope index gives the player a playing handicap, presumably the "target score" will always be net par with a (small, often zero) modification due to the CCA for the day?

3. What range can the CCA take? (cf. CSS can range between -1 and +3 of SSS)

4. The FAQ states that only one CCA is calculated per day (unlike the current system where there's a separate CSS for each competition). But what if there are multiple competitions from different tees (eg. men off the whites, ladies off the reds). Will there still only be one CCA?

5. Will there still be a stableford adjustment to scores for handicapping purposes?


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## MadAdey (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			I do hope so!
		
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Over here we use this to work stuff out. It will do all the calculations for you.

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

Slope is a very easy way to look at a course. In the UK they look at the scratch golfer and what they will score, not the 18 handicap bogey golfer. THe US way takes that into account, which is a good thing, because what affects a scratch golfer does not affect a bogey golfer in the same way.


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## patricks148 (Jul 27, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			Over here we use this to work stuff out. It will do all the calculations for you.

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

Slope is a very easy way to look at a course. In the UK they look at the scratch golfer and what they will score, not the 18 handicap bogey golfer. THe US way takes that into account, which is a good thing, because what affects a scratch golfer does not affect a bogey golfer in the same way.
		
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i just did this with the slope for my course, which is 134 and Nairn Dunbar which is 139. it came out the same so tried with a higher handicap IE cat 2 and it was still 1 shot higher, so  a cat 2 player you are losing one of your buffer shots by this system


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Bottom line for me is.

If I am standing on the 16th tee (let's for simplicity say of my own course) and have to par in to play to my handicap (it's my own course so I'll know what my handicap for my own course is and I know what it's par is) - will I know what I have to do to stop my handicap going up? (without having to have some bleedin' gizmo in my hand).

At the moment I do.  Assuming no downwards adjustment of CSS I just have to make sure I play to no more than 2 over handicap.  And that's dead easy for my head to handle.


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## BTatHome (Jul 27, 2018)

You way over thinking your game. If playing conservative gives you your best score then play like that. If you believe 'going for it' gives you a better then that's what you should be doing.

Either way I would guess that you don't always achieve your aim by your chosen playing style .... but that's why we play amateur golf.

If won't be a single round of golf that affects your handicap, but an accumulation of good/bad golf.


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## Garush34 (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bottom line for me is.

If I am standing on the 16th tee (let's for simplicity say of my own course) and have to par in to play to my handicap (it's my own course so I'll know what my handicap for my own course is and I know what it's par is) - will I know what I have to do to stop my handicap going up? (without having to have some bleedin' gizmo in my hand).

At the moment I do.  Assuming no downwards adjustment of CSS I just have to make sure I play to no more than 2 over handicap.  And that's dead easy for my head to handle.
		
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Surely you would just be trying to play the best you can on the day? Whether thats even or 1 over, it really shouldn't matter, because thats the best you could have played.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Garush34 said:



			Surely you would just be trying to play the best you can on the day? Whether thats even or 1 over, it really shouldn't matter, because thats the best you could have played.
		
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I can play the best I can - and I do.  

My thinking is very simple.  As I approach the end of a medal round I decide my strategy for the final few holes.  At the moment when playing a medal round this is easy.  If I am playing to my handicap I decide whether I am playing well enough to go for an under-handicap score.  If it's a comp I might not bother even if I am if I can't get a 'podium place'.  There is always a risk with going for it that I blow up and score well outside buffer zone and up 0.1 I go.

I suffered 0.1 drip-drip to my handicap for many years - even when playing well - it was hugely frustrating.  My handicap started coming down when I started playing the last few holes intelligently - according to the circumstances.  In this way I pretty much stopped the 0.1s and so could consolidate any deductions.

I am simply unsure how I can use this very simple strategy thinking with the new system.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			What the hell is a slope rating? And how would you relate that to you handicap? You made it _sound_ so simple without actually explaining it at all, lol.
		
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Google 'Pope of Slope' and check Dean's postings!

Basically, he analysed an enormous number of results and found that while a Scratch golfer might be expected to play to Course Rating (on average), higher handicap players would be 'punished' more on 'more difficult' courses - and that this relationship was pretty linear, depending on 'handicap' (actually Index) - thus the term 'Slope'!

So a 'standard' course has a Course Rating (the equivalent of SSS) and a Slope of 113. Anything tougher will have a slope greater than 113 - Augusta National has a slope of something around 145, and that's from the non-Masters tees!

So before your round, you check the Course Rating as a base point and add the adjustment for the Slope Rating according to your Index. That will be your handicap for the round.

Hope that helps.


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## Garush34 (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can play the best I can - and I do.  

My thinking is very simple.  As I approach the end of a medal round I decide my strategy for the final few holes.  At the moment when playing a medal round this is easy.  If I am playing to my handicap I decide whether I am playing well enough to go for an under-handicap score.  If it's a comp I might not bother even if I am if I can't get a 'podium place'.  There is always a risk with going for it that I blow up and score well outside buffer zone and up 0.1 I go.

I suffered 0.1 drip-drip to my handicap for many years - even when playing well - it was hugely frustrating.  My handicap started coming down when I started playing the last few holes intelligently - according to the circumstances.  In this way I pretty much stopped the 0.1s and so could consolidate any deductions.

I am simply unsure how I can use this very simple strategy thinking with the new system.
		
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Seems strange to me, because until the results are posted how are you going to know if you have a podium place or not. Surely if you are on for an under handicap score you would go for it otherwise it would seem as you are attempting to protect a higher handicap than to what you could be.


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## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I get that - but when I am standing on say the 16th tee and I am level with my handicap - should I be thinking about playing conservatively and hopefully knock it round in my handicap - or attack the course as it doesn't matter if my score is way over my handicap in the end.  

As I will always be wanting my handicap to come down all I might want to do is make it better than my 8th best of the previous 20.  But will it be easy enough for me to know or to work out what I have to shoot for it to be better that that 8th best - given that that 8th best could have been shot ages ago on a course I'd forgotten about.
		
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I always play to win so if I was standing on the 16th level with my handicap I know the only way to win is to play better than my handicap so I would be going for it on the final 2 holes.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can play the best I can - and I do.  

My thinking is very simple.  As I approach the end of a medal round I decide my strategy for the final few holes.  At the moment when playing a medal round this is easy.  If I am playing to my handicap I decide whether I am playing well enough to go for an under-handicap score.  If it's a comp I might not bother even if I am if I can't get a 'podium place'.  There is always a risk with going for it that I blow up and score well outside buffer zone and up 0.1 I go.

I suffered 0.1 drip-drip to my handicap for many years - even when playing well - it was hugely frustrating.  My handicap started coming down when I started playing the last few holes intelligently - according to the circumstances.  In this way I pretty much stopped the 0.1s and so could consolidate any deductions.

I am simply unsure how I can use this very simple strategy thinking with the new system.
		
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You seem to be completely missing the working of the new system.  

Going forward you can shoot 20 over handicap in a comp and that round may never feature in the calculation of your handicap index, ever.

If it really really worries you you can obviously review your handicap record before playing every round and establish the minimum score you need to keep your handicap exactly where it is currently....but this could be a very wide range from significantly below handicap, well above handicap but usually 'this one won't necessarily matter at all.


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## SammmeBee (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can play the best I can - and I do.  

My thinking is very simple.  As I approach the end of a medal round I decide my strategy for the final few holes.  At the moment when playing a medal round this is easy.  If I am playing to my handicap I decide whether I am playing well enough to go for an under-handicap score.  If it's a comp I might not bother even if I am if I can't get a 'podium place'.  There is always a risk with going for it that I blow up and score well outside buffer zone and up 0.1 I go.

I suffered 0.1 drip-drip to my handicap for many years - even when playing well - it was hugely frustrating.  My handicap started coming down when I started playing the last few holes intelligently - according to the circumstances.  In this way I pretty much stopped the 0.1s and so could consolidate any deductions.

I am simply unsure how I can use this very simple strategy thinking with the new system.
		
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The winner or 3rd place in the competition bears no relation in how you faired against your handicap to par/css.


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## rulefan (Jul 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Handicapping hasn't been a barrier to European resorts, or clubs,  running competitions with both CONGU and EGA handicaps playing. What will (should.....) change is the arbitrary reduction in CONGU players handicaps over and above the normal calculation process (which already exists).

Handicapping is rarely the real barrier!
		
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The EGA system is virtually the same as CONGU, particularly the ratchet system of handicap adjustment and CSS. The major difference is in the use of slope.

The rest of the world (ie excluding the England Golf Union - only men at the time of course) had already recognised the merits of slope.
In fact all of CONGU (except England men) have been rating courses and determining slope for over 10 years.. EGmen have ignored the higher handicap player entirely except to make a gesture with downward stoke adjustments by category.


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## MadAdey (Jul 28, 2018)

rulefan said:



			The EGA system is virtually the same as CONGU, particularly the ratchet system of handicap adjustment and CSS. The major difference is in the use of slope.

The rest of the world (ie excluding the England Golf Union - only men at the time of course) had already recognised the merits of slope.
In fact all of CONGU (except England men) have been rating courses and determining slope for over 10 years.. EGmen have ignored the higher handicap player entirely except to make a gesture with downward stoke adjustments by category.
		
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It is about time they took the higher handicapper into account. Play the tournament tees at my place and for higher handicappers it becomes pretty difficult for them to play, but thanks to course rating they have a chance. Its par 71 rated at 73.9/139. So an 18 handicapper gets 22 shots and a 5 handicapper would get 6. Makes it fair IMO.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 28, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			It is about time they took the higher handicapper into account. Play the tournament tees at my place and for higher handicappers it becomes pretty difficult for them to play, but thanks to course rating they have a chance. Its par 71 rated at 73.9/139. So an 18 handicapper gets 22 shots and a 5 handicapper would get 6. Makes it fair IMO.
		
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Absolutely!

This is the really fundamental difference overall ; and a very welcome one.

No system can be perfect but at least it deals with things that can be dealt with properly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

SammmeBee said:



			The winner or 3rd place in the competition bears no relation in how you faired against your handicap to par/css.
		
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I know...but I was massively frustrated that - after posting a good score and getting cut - my handicap would increase by a series of 0.1 and I'd be back to where I started.  

I realised that this was because I actually did not know about the buffer zone and how it worked.  So for instance if I was 1 over or level with my my handicap with say three holes to play - and couldn't afford any more dropped shots - or had to get one back to play to handicap - I'd 'go for my shots' to try and get gross par on every hole.  And of course that often resulted in my finishing 3 or 4 over my handicap - and I'd go up 0.1.  Then I was told about the buffer zone and so I think differently about my strategy for the last three holes depending on the context/comp/how I've been playing that day.

I know now that I can finish two over my handicap and not give 0.1 back (assuming the CSSS is not less than par - and that is rare at my place).  But I was unclear how this sort of assessment of what I would do over the last few holes under WHS has been escaping me - as I did not understand how the WHS would work (as Duncan rightly points out)


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## patricks148 (Jul 30, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			It is about time they took the higher handicapper into account. Play the tournament tees at my place and for higher handicappers it becomes pretty difficult for them to play, but thanks to course rating they have a chance. Its par 71 rated at 73.9/139. So an 18 handicapper gets 22 shots and a 5 handicapper would get 6. Makes it fair IMO.
		
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but at the moment a 5 handicap will get one shot more on your example slope but a cat 2 would only get 1 shot as well so in effect they are losing a shot  without the buffer, didn't check a cat 3, will do that now.

edit, just checked and a 13 handicap would get 15 shots to again they are losing a shot against the current SSS/SSS system


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## Foxholer (Jul 30, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			but at the moment a 5 handicap will get one shot more on your example slope but a cat 2 would only get 1 shot as well so in effect they are losing a shot  without the buffer, didn't check a cat 3, will do that now.

edit, just checked and a 13 handicap would get 15 shots to again they are losing a shot against the current SSS/SSS system
		
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There is no concept of 'buffer' in the WHS! That's something that will be thrown away - and replaced by 'Index = average of best 8 from last 20'! 

Course Rating (the 73.9) is (pretty much) the equivalent of SSS though.


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## USER1999 (Jul 30, 2018)

I don't get this going for it, not going for it stuff. If I am on handicap, and have 3 holes to go, at home, I have a par 3, a par 4, and a par 5 left to play.
The par 3 is roughly 180 yards, so I go for the middle of the green. It impossible to go to the front, and long is not good either.
The par 4 is longish. I have to hit driver. No other club is any safer anyway. If I have a second shot where I can reach the green, why would I lay up for a 5?
For the par 5, the carry off the back tees dictates driver is the only option. If it is a good drive, I can go for the green in two, if not it is a 3 shotter. The tee shot decides all.

I can't change the strategy for a less risky one. There is no option but to play it the way it was designed to be played.

I think golf is complicated enough without over thinking it.


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## Orikoru (Jul 30, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Google 'Pope of Slope' and check Dean's postings!

Basically, he analysed an enormous number of results and found that while a Scratch golfer might be expected to play to Course Rating (on average), higher handicap players would be 'punished' more on 'more difficult' courses - and that this relationship was pretty linear, depending on 'handicap' (actually Index) - thus the term 'Slope'!

So a 'standard' course has a Course Rating (the equivalent of SSS) and a Slope of 113. Anything tougher will have a slope greater than 113 - Augusta National has a slope of something around 145, and that's from the non-Masters tees!

So before your round, you check the Course Rating as a base point and add the adjustment for the Slope Rating according to your Index. That will be your handicap for the round.

Hope that helps.
		
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Yes, thanks. This 'slope rating' is something I'm completely unfamiliar with. Just one of those things that I guess I'll get used to when it comes into play in 2020 or whenever it was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			I don't get this going for it, not going for it stuff. If I am on handicap, and have 3 holes to go, at home, I have a par 3, a par 4, and a par 5 left to play.
The par 3 is roughly 180 yards, so I go for the middle of the green. It impossible to go to the front, and long is not good either.
The par 4 is longish. I have to hit driver. No other club is any safer anyway. If I have a second shot where I can reach the green, why would I lay up for a 5?
For the par 5, the carry off the back tees dictates driver is the only option. If it is a good drive, I can go for the green in two, if not it is a 3 shotter. The tee shot decides all.

I can't change the strategy for a less risky one. There is no option but to play it the way it was designed to be played.

I think golf is complicated enough without over thinking it.
		
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Of course you can change your strategy...at any time you can.  Your par 3.  If the flag is at the front do you go for the flag? - to try and get within 6ft for a good birdie opportunity - or do you go middle/back of green being conservative and OK with a par?  It depends on external factors, such as the wind direction, and also how you are playing - and of course whether you feel that you *need* a birdie.

I suspect there isn't a professional or low SF player who would consider any flag position on a par3 'impossible'


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## USER1999 (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course you can change your strategy...at any time you can.  Your par 3.  If the flag is at the front do you go for the flag? - to try and get within 6ft for a good birdie opportunity - or do you go middle/back of green being conservative and OK with a par?  It depends on external factors, such as the wind direction, and also how you are playing - and of course whether you feel that you *need* a birdie.
		
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You can't get near a front pin on 16. It is impossible. The only strategy is put the ball on the green. Anywhere is fine.

The other two holes depend on how your drive goes, but you have to hit driver, unless you can carry 230 with a 3w, which most cannot do.

Strategy is fine for scratch golfers, but most handicapped golfers find following any sort of strategy just as hard, and just as variable as going for it. How many times do you see fellow playing partners, who have a shot on a hole  mess it up by being too conservative when not good enough to play that way.
Iron for safety = shank, top, thin, what have you.

There is no way off my 11 handicap I can guarantee to par any stretch of 3 holes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			You can't get near a front pin on 16. It is impossible. The only strategy is put the ball on the green. Anywhere is fine.

The other two holes depend on how your drive goes, but you have to hit driver, unless you can carry 230 with a 3w, which most cannot do.

Strategy is fine for scratch golfers, but most handicapped golfers find following any sort of strategy just as hard, and just as variable as going for it. How many times do you see fellow playing partners, who have a shot on a hole  mess it up by being too conservative when not good enough to play that way.
Iron for safety = shank, top, thin, what have you.

There is no way off my 11 handicap I can guarantee to par any stretch of 3 holes.
		
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I get what you are saying but you do in fact have a strategy for playing your last three holes - based upon your handicap and ability.  You say you can't get to a flag at the front of your par 3 - but if there was Â£1000 on a birdie holed from within 6ft would you go for it?  Well you might.

And that is all I am saying.  Our 17 is a difficult long par 4.  The safe way of playing it is to lay up with your second shot and try for an up and down in two.  Might come off - worse case likely to be a 5.  But if I had a chance of winning the club champs and I needed to birdie the 17 then I would go for it.

This is rather off the track of the WHS - but my point was that I do adjust the way I play the final three holes according to conditions and circumstances; and one of these is currently whether or not I will be inside the buffer.  

So if I *must *par or birdie the 17th to have a chance of playing inside the buffer then I will go for it in two.  If I don't have to par or birdie it to play within the buffer, and can accept a 5 - then I'll likely play for a 5.  

But I know what I need to do to increase my chance of playing inside the buffer.  With the buffer going and other considerations coming into play I'm thinking that my thinking will have to change, but I have to reflect further on understanding how WHS works to know.

But note that I only do this to stop me frittering away 0.1s - something that used to do my head in.  And I stopped it when I realised that it was often down to how I played the final few holes.  If I am miles over handicap when I come to 15 or 16 then it matters not a jot how I play them.


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## USER1999 (Jul 30, 2018)

At least with the new system it won't be point ones. It is more likely to be up and down like a yoyo.


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## rksquire (Jul 30, 2018)

Mind blown by this and I'm sort of struggling to understand.  Say in my last 20 rounds, my oldest returned score was 42; the other 19 were 36 (where 36 is also CSS for reference).  The best 8 would be (7 x 36+42) / 8 = 36.75. On my 21st round, I score 36 again and this replaces my oldest round of 42.  My new best 8 is 8 x 36 / 8 = 36... so I'd just go up 0.75 overnight?


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## MendieGK (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get what you are saying but you do in fact have a strategy for playing your last three holes - based upon your handicap and ability.  You say you can't get to a flag at the front of your par 3 - but if there was Â£1000 on a birdie holed from within 6ft would you go for it?  Well you might.

And that is all I am saying.  Our 17 is a difficult long par 4.  The safe way of playing it is to lay up with your second shot and try for an up and down in two.  Might come off - worse case likely to be a 5.  But if I had a chance of winning the club champs and I needed to birdie the 17 then I would go for it.

This is rather off the track of the WHS - but my point was that I do adjust the way I play the final three holes according to conditions and circumstances; and one of these is currently whether or not I will be inside the buffer.  

So if I *must *par or birdie the 17th to have a chance of playing inside the buffer then I will go for it in two.  If I don't have to par or birdie it to play within the buffer, and can accept a 5 - then I'll likely play for a 5.  

But I know what I need to do to increase my chance of playing inside the buffer.  With the buffer going and other considerations coming into play I'm thinking that my thinking will have to change, but I have to reflect further on understanding how WHS works to know.

But note that I only do this to stop me frittering away 0.1s - something that used to do my head in.  And I stopped it when I realised that it was often down to how I played the final few holes.  If I am miles over handicap when I come to 15 or 16 then it matters not a jot how I play them.
		
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Any golfer with a sound understanding of the handicap system should be doing this.

I 100% adjust my strategy based on handicap outcomes


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 30, 2018)

rksquire said:



			Mind blown by this and I'm sort of struggling to understand.  Say in my last 20 rounds, my oldest returned score was 42; the other 19 were 36 (where 36 is also CSS for reference).  The best 8 would be (7 x 36+42) / 8 = 36.75. On my 21st round, I score 36 again and this replaces my oldest round of 42.  My new best 8 is 8 x 36 / 8 = 36... so I'd just go up 0.75 overnight?
		
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Theoretically you are correct - however, there are some assumptions in your post.

The WHS works on difference to par - thus your rounds would be expressed as (shots taken during round - par). In your example I presume you are quoting stableford points not shots over par - otherwise in your example the handicap would decrease to 36.0

It doesn't matter on what course you play your acceptable rounds so the par could be different depending on location or tees used.

There is always the possibility the par will be adjusted for handicap purposes by the overnight Condition Adjustment so you won't actually know what your updated handicap index is until the next day. 

How's the mind feeling :mmm:


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## Grant85 (Jul 30, 2018)

It would be interesting to know if people using the new system have a clear grasp of it and if they know what their new handicap will be when they finish their round. 

i.e. do you keep track of what your 'worst' score out of your best 8 are? Basically shoot better than this to lower your handicap. 

Also do you know what your 20th oldest score is? Shoot the same as this to stay the same.

(these two could be the same)

It seems unlikely you would know these unless you were particularly diligent at keeping records.

also note the following from the R&A siite;



An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control of p
&#8203;So in theory two players could have the same scores over the past 20 rounds, but if one had started out as an 8 handicapper, he/she could stay lower than someone who started out at 18 when they started the 20 rounds?


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## Grant85 (Jul 30, 2018)

Also unintended consequences...

Courses that are given a slope rating making it an 'easy' course could quickly fall out of favour as people may feel that is less deisreable to have that as their home course. 

I know in theory it doesn't make a difference. Just a prestige thing of playing your golf at a 'proper' course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

MendieGK said:



			Any golfer with a sound understanding of the handicap system should be doing this.

I 100% adjust my strategy based on handicap outcomes
		
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Indeed - and I don't yet understand the WHS enough to know how I can think about my strategy to prevent a handicap increase.  Because at the moment - and for the foreseeable future - I just do not want my handicap to drift up and up - I want to work at getting it down.  And I don't know how I'll manage that on a round by round basis.  I have to understand the WHS better - but I'm not liking the sound of it.  Which is tough as I will be stuck with it.


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## Grant85 (Jul 30, 2018)

http://www.golf.org.au/newsdisplay/76983

As an earlier poster mentioned, have a look at some of the articles on the golf Australia site. 

It does seem to be a superior and probably will be a fairer system - but probably very difficult for someone to work things out until the computer sorts it out. 

I'd imagine someone will have an app that you keep track of your scores, slope ratings on the day and it should be able to give you what would happen if you shot x, y or z.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 30, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			It would be interesting to know if people using the new system have a clear grasp of it and if they know what their new handicap will be when they finish their round. 

i.e. do you keep track of what your 'worst' score out of your best 8 are? Basically shoot better than this to lower your handicap. 

Also do you know what your 20th oldest score is? Shoot the same as this to stay the same.

(these two could be the same)

It seems unlikely you would know these unless you were particularly diligent at keeping records.

also note the following from the R&A siite;



An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control of p
&#8203;So in theory two players could have the same scores over the past 20 rounds, but if one had started out as an 8 handicapper, he/she could stay lower than someone who started out at 18 when they started the 20 rounds?






Click to expand...

Yes to you last point.

Generally no to your first, because currently most operating that system run to a fixed adjustment point, either 2 weekly or monthly, so any change could incorporate a lot of scores!

I sort of understand where you are coming from with your subsequent post but would point out that in the first instance people won't all be changing courses, secondly this already exists to a degree when playing from different tees at the same course (and will even more going forward) and finally, you are correct that it won't actually make any difference! 
In practice I anticipate things the other way round - the easy courses will be favoured because people will have their lowest playing handicap when playing them.


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## duncan mackie (Jul 30, 2018)

Grant85 said:



http://www.golf.org.au/newsdisplay/76983

As an earlier poster mentioned, have a look at some of the articles on the golf Australia site. 

It does seem to be a superior and probably will be a fairer system - but probably very difficult for someone to work things out until the computer sorts it out. 

I'd imagine someone will have an app that you keep track of your scores, slope ratings on the day and it should be able to give you what would happen if you shot x, y or z.
		
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The primary handicapping software companies are well on this one already - it's the primary reason  firms like IG have already produced apps for the existing system.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Yes to you last point.

Generally no to your first, because currently most operating that system run to a fixed adjustment point, either 2 weekly or monthly, so any change could incorporate a lot of scores!

I sort of understand where you are coming from with your subsequent post but would point out that in the first instance people won't all be changing courses, secondly this already exists to a degree when playing from different tees at the same course (and will even more going forward) and finally, you are correct that it won't actually make any difference! 
In practice I anticipate things the other way round - *the easy courses will be favoured because people will have their lowest playing handicap when playing them.*

Click to expand...

Not a comment on your observation - but that this will be what is going to happen is - in my opinion - just rubbish and not what handicap golf is about.  I have a handicap means I have a handicap - and that handicap goes with me wherever I play.  That's just how it is.  From what I am starting to understand I am just hating the sound of the WHS...


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## duncan mackie (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not a comment on your observation - but that this will be what is going to happen is - in my opinion - just rubbish and not what handicap golf is about.  I have a handicap means I have a handicap - and that handicap goes with me wherever I play.  That's just how it is.  From what I am starting to understand I am just hating the sound of the WHS...
		
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It's the price of playing to par.

You will have a handicap index. What you actually play off will be a function of the course you are playing and the tees you are playing from.

Apart from rounding elements it's arguably a numbers exercise for a scratch golfer e.g. for a par 72 SSS 74 course he would play off 0 currently, and have his handicap adjusted relative to 74. Under the WGS he would play of 2 and have his handicap adjusted relative to 72 (I'm simplifying aspects but that's the fundamental difference. For an 18 handicap things are more complicated in order to make things fairer - if the course and tees had a lot of hazards that will threaten the average 18nhandicapper but be largely irrelevant to a scr golfer he may get more than 18 shots relative to the scr guy, and vice versa.

It will make a lot more sense when it all gets real - examples such as the above need a level of understanding to make them real!


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## jusme (Jul 30, 2018)

Why all the concern. No great change in reality will take place. I tested 5 players to date and the biggest variance was a change of 0.4. 

Hit the bleeding ball towards the hole


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 30, 2018)

Grant85 said:



*It would be interesting to know if people using the new system have a clear grasp of it and if they know what their new handicap will be when they finish their round. *

i.e. do you keep track of what your 'worst' score out of your best 8 are? Basically shoot better than this to lower your handicap. 

Also do you know what your 20th oldest score is? Shoot the same as this to stay the same.

(these two could be the same)

It seems unlikely you would know these unless you were particularly diligent at keeping records.

also note the following from the R&A siite;



An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control of p
&#8203;So in theory two players could have the same scores over the past 20 rounds, but if one had started out as an 8 handicapper, he/she could stay lower than someone who started out at 18 when they started the 20 rounds?






Click to expand...

To your first point - you will never know when you complete your round as there may be an Adverse Weather Adjustment applied.

Speaking to people that use similar systems they usually say they don't bother to calculate their handicap index  they just look it up on a relevant website or when they are signing in at their club.


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## Grant85 (Jul 30, 2018)

mikejohnchapman said:



			To your first point - you will never know when you complete your round as there may be an Adverse Weather Adjustment applied.

Speaking to people that use similar systems they usually say they don't bother to calculate their handicap index  they just look it up on a relevant website or when they are signing in at their club.
		
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 Maybe we are a bit over obsessed with handicap.


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## USER1999 (Jul 31, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Maybe we are a bit over obsessed with handicap.
		
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Exactly. It is just a number. 

Unless you define your golfing happiness by this number, or, unless you use this number as an entry criteria to qualify for opens you want to play in.


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## Orikoru (Jul 31, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Exactly. It is just a number. 

Unless you define your golfing happiness by this number, or, unless you use this number as an entry criteria to qualify for opens you want to play in.
		
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I think it's just nice to kind of understand what's going on with it. But largely I agree - playing the last few holes a certain way to guarantee this that and the other happens to your handicap seems like overthinking it to me. You just try and get it in in the fewest shots don't you?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			I think it's just nice to kind of understand what's going on with it. But largely I agree - playing the last few holes a certain way to guarantee this that and the other happens to your handicap seems like overthinking it to me. *You just try and get it in in the fewest shots don't you?*

Click to expand...

In the _end _yes - but how I go about it depends upon the competition, context and circumstances.  

And so when I stand on our 16th tee I decide how I want to try and play the last three holes to meet that objective - and that, more often than not, will not require me to go for every shot - to go for par or birdie on each of the last three holes.  

They are, in their own ways, three tough holes.  Sometimes it is best to play them all conservatively, sometimes I need to play them all aggressively - and all points in between.  And in a medal comp I always take into account where I am relative to what my buffer allows in respect of playing to my handicap - and I decide my strategy accordingly.  A bit like playing bogey (against the course).

And in the context of the WHS I am just wondering how I'll make that same sort of assessment.


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## Orikoru (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the _end _yes - but how I go about it depends upon the competition, context and circumstances.  

And so when I stand on our 16th tee I decide how I want to try and play the last three holes to meet that objective - and that, more often than not, will not require me to go for every shot - to go for par or birdie on each of the last three holes.  

They are, in their own ways, three tough holes.  Sometimes it is best to play them all conservatively, sometimes I need to play them all aggressively - and all points in between.  And in a medal comp I always take into account where I am relative to what my buffer allows in respect of playing to my handicap - and I decide my strategy accordingly.  A bit like playing bogey (against the course).

And in the context of the WHS I am just wondering how I'll make that same sort of assessment.
		
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Yeah, you said, haha. But yeah it seems like it won't be easy to know what you need to do for your handicap to go up/down or stay the same.

Lucky for me I play our last few holes the same no matter what. i.e. try and get it on the fairway - try and get it on the green - try and get it in the hole.


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## Grant85 (Jul 31, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Exactly. It is just a number. 

Unless you define your golfing happiness by this number, or, unless you use this number as an entry criteria to qualify for opens you want to play in.
		
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It did actually for me. 

I was previously embarrassed standing on the tee for a fourball and having to give out my handicap as 23+. I got down to 17 and was genuinely happier playing off a lower handicap, but it was a real struggle getting down to that level. 

And obviously it didn't help me to win or play better as a 17 (and quickly an 18) handicapper.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Yeah, you said, haha. But yeah it seems like it won't be easy to know what you need to do for your handicap to go up/down or stay the same.

Lucky for me I play our last few holes the same no matter what. i.e. try and get it on the fairway - try and get it on the green - try and get it in the hole. 

Click to expand...

*This *is the impression that I am getting. 

Given 95% of my golf is 'at home' all I need to do is know my 8th best qualifying round (or 9th if the 8th is last in the 20 round moving window) and as I approach end of a round at home I'll know what to do.  What happens away from home I'll just let sort itself out.


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## r0wly86 (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not a comment on your observation - but that this will be what is going to happen is - in my opinion - just rubbish and not what handicap golf is about.  I have a handicap means I have a handicap - and that handicap goes with me wherever I play.  That's just how it is.  From what I am starting to understand I am just hating the sound of the WHS...
		
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Isn't that the point as I understand it.

You have a handicap that is based primarily or solely for some at one course. Really all that tells us is your ability to play at that course.

Are all 5 handicappers equal? If you have a handicap of 5 and your home course is Carnoustie are you the same level golfer as the guy who has a 5 handicap at the very easy municipal around the corner.

The way I read is the WHS means that at whatever course you play you will get a number of shots that should be correct for that course off of those tees.

When I play St Mellion Nicklaus off the blacks I think I would need a couple more shots than when I'm playing a really easy course


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## Slab (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not a comment on your observation - but that this will be what is going to happen is - in my opinion - just rubbish and not what handicap golf is about.  I have a handicap means I have a handicap - and that handicap goes with me wherever I play.  That's just how it is.  From what I am starting to understand I am just hating the sound of the WHS...
		
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But don't you only need a handicap in golf (currently) because you're playing in a comp of some kind (otherwise what's the point of it, just record your gross score for any personal records)

And if its a comp why would you play a final three holes based on your performance to handicap over 15 holes, when the reality is you need to  play them to the best of your ability that day against an opponent or field (could be three under or three over) 
And if going for it/playing for par hasn't worked so far in the round why would it suddenly start working on 16


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## duncan mackie (Jul 31, 2018)

r0wly86 said:



			Isn't that the point as I understand it.

You have a handicap that is based primarily or solely for some at one course. Really all that tells us is your ability to play at that course.

Are all 5 handicappers equal? If you have a handicap of 5 and your home course is Carnoustie are you the same level golfer as the guy who has a 5 handicap at the very easy municipal around the corner.

The way I read is the WHS means that at whatever course you play you will get a number of shots that should be correct for that course off of those tees.

When I play St Mellion Nicklaus off the blacks I think I would need a couple more shots than when I'm playing a really easy course
		
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You are mixing things a little with the reference to are all 5 handicappers equal.

Under both systems the answer is the same - they should be.

Where the real difference comes in is, as you go on to say, when those 5 handicappers head off and play other golfers of different handicaps (with therefore different playing charecteristics). In very very simple terms it's more likely that any handicap difference will be increased as the course/tees have a higher rating.

The should be element has to exist because there is no escaping the fact that someone who regularily plays a course with any extreme of design will develop capability around that. Those capabilities may, or may not, have added value on any course visited over and above the course rating.


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## cliveb (Jul 31, 2018)

Let's face it, we're probably all guilty of being aware of how the round we're playing is going to affect our handicap and possibly modifying our play accordingly.

If the WHS means we will no longer be able to do that, then perhaps we'll relax a bit and just play the way we ought to. Which IMHO is a good thing.


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## patricks148 (Jul 31, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			You are mixing things a little with the reference to are all 5 handicappers equal.

Under both systems the answer is the same - they should be.

Where the real difference comes in is, as you go on to say, when those 5 handicappers head off and play other golfers of different handicaps (with therefore different playing charecteristics). In very very simple terms it's more likely that any handicap difference will be increased as the course/tees have a higher rating.

The should be element has to exist because there is no escaping the fact that someone who regularily plays a course with any extreme of design will develop capability around that. Those capabilities may, or may not, have added value on any course visited over and above the course rating.
		
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Duncan, no one else has replied to this including the person who added the link, i presume as they don't know or don't get it.

the US link showed a conversion for handicap Vs slope and what your handicap would be on that slope.

I put in 3 different handicaps from my course slope, which is 134, current SSS is 73, par 71

Cat 1 get in more shot, which is suppose would be the same  as buffer and before someone post there won't be a buffer, thats not what i'm asking its merely a comparison.
so a 5 handicap will play off 6

a cat 2 player will say off say off 8 will be off 9

a cat 3, say  13 off 15 

both cat 2 and 3 are losing a shot compared to the current buffer to handicap. 

so i'm reading this to play to their new handicap the are effectively losing a shot under the new system.


why is this?


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## User 99 (Jul 31, 2018)

Will this new handicap system make me a better player ? Thought not, oh well.


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## rulefan (Jul 31, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Also unintended consequences...

Courses that are given a slope rating making it an 'easy' course could quickly fall out of favour as people may feel that is less deisreable to have that as their home course.
		
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Slope does *not* tell you how easy or hard a course is. The Course Rating (CR - equivalent to SSS) does that.

Slope tells you the *relative* difficulty of the course for a bogey play as opposed to a scratch player. 

It does not indicate actual difficulty


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 31, 2018)

RandG said:



			Will this new handicap system make me a better player ? Thought not, oh well.
		
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No but what it will do is give you a handicap that reflects the way you are currently playing rather than when you played well some time ago.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Duncan, no one else has replied to this including the person who added the link, i presume as they don't know or don't get it.

the US link showed a conversion for handicap Vs slope and what your handicap would be on that slope.

I put in 3 different handicaps from my course slope, which is 134, current SSS is 73, par 71

Cat 1 get in more shot, which is suppose would be the same  as buffer and before someone post there won't be a buffer, thats not what i'm asking its merely a comparison.
so a 5 handicap will play off 6

a cat 2 player will say off say off 8 will be off 9

a cat 3, say  13 off 15 

both cat 2 and 3 are losing a shot compared to the current buffer to handicap. 

so i'm reading this to play to their new handicap the are effectively losing a shot under the new system.


why is this?
		
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I think my answer to the question you are asking is that the conclusion you are drawing is flawed.

I know you said earlier in the post that you were only using buffer as a comparison but all the arithmetic of buffer has been included in the new aversge calculation.

So the practical issue remains that as slope increases the higher handicap index players will get relatively more strokes.

If I've missed the point please explain and I will try harder!


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## duncan mackie (Aug 1, 2018)

mikejohnchapman said:



			No but what it will do is give you a handicap that reflects the way you are currently playing rather than when you played well some time ago.
		
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It shouldn't really make a huge difference over current CONGU with the handicap committee acting as they should.

How the transition process works in practice will definitely throw up some issues though; I suspect that a much larger proportion of players will exceed the restrictions currently in place 're increases!


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## Orikoru (Aug 1, 2018)

cliveb said:



*Let's face it, we're probably all guilty of being aware of how the round we're playing is going to affect our handicap and possibly modifying our play accordingly.*

If the WHS means we will no longer be able to do that, then perhaps we'll relax a bit and just play the way we ought to. Which IMHO is a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

I can honestly say, I think the only time I've come close to this is when I've had a terrible round which is already unsalvageable, and so then I'm more like to practise the shots I'm not good at and experiment, rather than sticking with my strengths as I would normally do on a comp round.


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## USER1999 (Aug 1, 2018)

In the new system, there are no handicap categories either, so cat1, 2 etc will not exist.

I am assuming that sub 5.5 will still be adminstered by the county, as at present.


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## rulefan (Aug 1, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			In the new system, there are no handicap categories either, so cat1, 2 etc will not exist.

I am assuming that sub 5.5 will still be adminstered by the county, as at present.
		
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I see no reason why it should except possibly for initial allocation. But even that is virtually a rubber stamp exercise.

They may be charged by EG to keep an eye on those on the edge of qualifying for WR events say.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I think my answer to the question you are asking is that the conclusion you are drawing is flawed.

I know you said earlier in the post that you were only using buffer as a comparison but all the arithmetic of buffer has been included in the new aversge calculation.

So the practical issue remains that as slope increases the higher handicap index players will get relatively more strokes.

If I've missed the point please explain and I will try harder!
		
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What i was trying to sat was, buy the calc on here if you are over a cat1 player it looks like you are potentially losing a shot if you take my clubs slope rating. on  https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

for instance if you are an 8 handicap at my club because of the SSS/CSS you can shoot 10 over and you will be still playing to handicap. under the links its 9 so losing a shot same if you are cat 3, you would get 3 shots under the current buffers but now if you are a say a 15 its only two,

What i'm saying is if you have a certain SR you will be getting less shots that you currently do under the US calc or am i missing something?


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## Foxholer (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			What i was trying to sat was, buy the calc on here if you are over a cat1 player it looks like you are potentially losing a shot if you take my clubs slope rating. on  https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

for instance if you are an 8 handicap at my club because of the SSS/CSS you can shoot 10 over and you will be still playing to handicap. under the links its 9 so losing a shot same if you are cat 3, you would get 3 shots under the current buffers but now if you are a say a 15 its only two,

What i'm saying is if you have a certain SR you will be getting less shots that you currently do under the US calc or am i missing something?
		
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The concept of Categories and Buffers will disappear when WHS is implemented. So, actually, will 'Handicap'!

Handicap will be replaced by 'Index' and the 'Handicap for the round' will be calculated from Index, Course Rating and Slope. HcapftRnd = Course Rating - Par + Slope Allowance for Index (as per the link for the calculation above).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			I can honestly say, I think the only time I've come close to this is when I've had a terrible round which is already unsalvageable, and so then I'm more like to practise the shots I'm not good at and experiment, rather than sticking with my strengths as I would normally do on a comp round.
		
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I just used to find the steady round-after-round 0.1 drip-drip as my handicap goes up when I'm in a stretch of rounds not playing great a bit of a chinese water torture.  And I discovered a mindset to stop it - and that involved really focussing on playing within my buffer zone.  It's important for me as I can have a good round and get cut - and that's great - but I was giving it all back carelessly.  With my change of mindset I have been able to consolidate handicap reductions - then move on to play towards the next reduction.   That's really all I've been saying.  I guess that since I play 95% of my golf at my own course I'll know what I have to do any qualifying round.


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## rulefan (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			What i was trying to sat was, buy the calc on here if you are over a cat1 player it looks like you are potentially losing a shot if you take my clubs slope rating. on  https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

for instance if you are an 8 handicap at my club because of the SSS/CSS you can shoot 10 over and you will be still playing to handicap. under the links its 9 so losing a shot same if you are cat 3, you would get 3 shots under the current buffers but now if you are a say a 15 its only two,

What i'm saying is if you have a certain SR you will be getting less shots that you currently do under the US calc or am i missing something?
		
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But your resultant handicap will only be affected if the the score falls in the best 8 of your last 20 rounds. No more 0.1s if you are outside your buffer or outside the best 8.


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## Orikoru (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just used to find the steady round-after-round 0.1 drip-drip as my handicap goes up when I'm in a stretch of rounds not playing great a bit of a chinese water torture.  And I discovered a mindset to stop it - and that involved really focussing on playing within my buffer zone.  It's important for me as I can have a good round and get cut - and that's great - but I was giving it all back carelessly.  With my change of mindset I have been able to consolidate handicap reductions - then move on to play towards the next reduction.   That's really all I've been saying.  I guess that since I play 95% of my golf at my own course I'll know what I have to do any qualifying round.
		
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Well, on the plus side of the new system, that '0.1 torture' you speak of will never happen again. So you can come up with all new mentalities with which to play the game.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			What i was trying to sat was, buy the calc on here if you are over a cat1 player it looks like you are potentially losing a shot if you take my clubs slope rating. on  https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

for instance if you are an 8 handicap at my club because of the SSS/CSS you can shoot 10 over and you will be still playing to handicap. under the links its 9 so losing a shot same if you are cat 3, you would get 3 shots under the current buffers but now if you are a say a 15 its only two,

What i'm saying is if you have a certain SR you will be getting less shots that you currently do under the US calc or am i missing something?
		
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I see what you are saying, and agree your logic. 
However, as there is no concept off buffer, let alone any penalty for failure to play to handicap on a particular round, it is irrelevant when considering the gaining or loosing of shots.
What is relevant is that, in the example you quoted, a 13 handicapper will play off 15 whilst the scr golfer plays off screen - so he gains 2 shots.


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## patricks148 (Aug 1, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I see what you are saying, and agree your logic. 
However, as there is no concept off buffer, let alone any penalty for failure to play to handicap on a particular round, it is irrelevant when considering the gaining or loosing of shots.
What is relevant is that, in the example you quoted, a 13 handicapper will play off 15 whilst the scr golfer plays off screen - so he gains 2 shots.
		
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i get what you are saying, but it just looks like the current has a bit more leeway 

according to that link, scr golfer is still off 0 at my place


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

Orikoru said:



			Well, on the plus side of the new system, that '0.1 torture' you speak of will never happen again. So you can come up with all new mentalities with which to play the game. 

Click to expand...

Not in the same way.  But if I go onto the course not knowing my 8th and 9th best rounds of the last 20 relative to CSS then I might well suffer the same fate.


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## azazel (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			What i was trying to sat was, buy the calc on here if you are over a cat1 player it looks like you are potentially losing a shot if you take my clubs slope rating. on  https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

for instance if you are an 8 handicap at my club because of the SSS/CSS you can shoot 10 over and you will be still playing to handicap. under the links its 9 so losing a shot same if you are cat 3, you would get 3 shots under the current buffers but now if you are a say a 15 its only two,

What i'm saying is if you have a certain SR you will be getting less shots that you currently do under the US calc or am i missing something?
		
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Holy moly, according to that link, if my index is 6 (my current handicap but no idea how that will relate to a new index) I'll have a course handicap of 4 for our course. Jings!!

EDIT: talking nonsense. Entered the course rating rather than the slope rating so would actually have a course handicap of 7. That's a relief. It's also current CSS +6 (current handicap), which seems reasonable?


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## jim8flog (Aug 1, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			You are mixing things a little with the reference to are all 5 handicappers equal.

Under both systems the answer is the same - they should be.
.
		
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 I am not sure how you work that one out.

If you look at in stableford terms where I play playing to handicap off the yellows is I score 39 points 

Someone from say Burnham and Berrow (chosen because I now the SSS)  playing to his handicap there off the yellows scores 34 points.

I have played Burnham and Berrow lots of times so know the course well but have only once managed to play to my handicap at that course.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 1, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I am not sure how you work that one out.

If you look at in stableford terms where I play playing to handicap off the yellows is I score 39 points 

Someone from say Burnham and Berrow (chosen because I now the SSS)  playing to his handicap there off the yellows scores 34 points.

I have played Burnham and Berrow lots of times so know the course well but have only once managed to play to my handicap at that course.
		
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I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Currently both you, and someone from Burnham and Berrow on the same handicap , would both be playing to handicap when scoring 39 points playing off your yellows, or 34 points playing at B&B.

Same 2 players will have the same handicap as each other going forward, but it may be numerically different when playing either course from any tees - but will be targeting 36 points wherever they play.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 1, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i get what you are saying, but it just looks like the current has a bit more leeway 

according to that link, scr golfer is still off 0 at my place
		
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That's what I typed but got auto corrected to Screen. It's the higher handicap who is likely to be adjusted


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## rulefan (Aug 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			What is relevant is that, in the example you quoted, a 13 handicapper will play off 15 whilst the scr golfer plays off screen - so he gains 2 shots.
		
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Because, relative to the 13 capper, the course (ie tees) is rated to be 2 strokes more difficult for the 15 capper. That is what slope (and USGA Course Rating) is all about.


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## jim8flog (Aug 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Currently both you, and someone from Burnham and Berrow on the same handicap , would both be playing to handicap when scoring 39 points playing off your yellows, or 34 points playing at B&B.

Same 2 players will have the same handicap as each other going forward, but it may be numerically different when playing either course from any tees - but will be targeting 36 points wherever they play.
		
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I read your original post as " a player with say a 5 handicap at one course has the same ability as a 5 handicap player at another course"

I have played virtually every course in Dorset, a lot in Somerset and Wiltshire fairly often. I know which courses I am likely to score to worse than 36 points on and which courses I am likely to score to better than. When I play matches (frequent occurrence on these courses) I reckon to tell what sort of player I am up against relatively not only by their handicap but also to the course I am on or they have come from when playing at home.

 It is one of the reasons I have hoped the slope system would come in.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 2, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I read your original post as " a player with say a 5 handicap at one course has the same ability as a 5 handicap player at another course"

I have played virtually every course in Dorset, a lot in Somerset and Wiltshire fairly often. I know which courses I am likely to score to worse than 36 points on and which courses I am likely to score to better than. When I play matches (frequent occurrence on these courses) I reckon to tell what sort of player I am up against relatively not only by their handicap but also to the course I am on or they have come from when playing at home.

 It is one of the reasons I have hoped the slope system would come in.
		
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As already posted, that won't explicitly change.

Personally I expect the concept of stronger handicaps at some clubs to get even more pronounced as historic handicaps get a througher overall (if they actually do!) but that will take a few years to come through.

My point is that under both systems the principle remains the same-


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## MadAdey (Aug 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			I think my answer to the question you are asking is that the conclusion you are drawing is flawed.

I know you said earlier in the post that you were only using buffer as a comparison but all the arithmetic of buffer has been included in the new aversge calculation.

So the practical issue remains that as slope increases the higher handicap index players will get relatively more strokes.

If I've missed the point please explain and I will try harder!
		
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They would need those extra shots on a tough course. There are 3 par 4s at my place that would be a par 5 to most high handicappers off the back tees. But they are still par 4s to most low handicappers.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 2, 2018)

MadAdey said:



			They would need those extra shots on a tough course. There are 3 par 4s at my place that would be a par 5 to most high handicappers off the back tees. But they are still par 4s to most low handicappers.
		
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Indeed - the shot average for the last 5 holes on my course is exactly 250. One par 3, one par 5 and 3 par 4s totalling 2500 yds between them from the back.


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## MadAdey (Aug 2, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Indeed - the shot average for the last 5 holes on my course is exactly 250. One par 3, one par 5 and 3 par 4s totalling 2500 yds between them from the back.
		
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Opening hole at my place is 430 yards. You have to hit into an upslope off the tee if your not carrying it 260 yards so you lose some distance. Then faced with a small green with water in front and oob right. So even if you get it out there 250, your still faced with an approach needing you to carry it in excess of 180 yards. So for most high handicappers they have to play it as a par 5. That's why if those tees the indexing gives the higher handicapper 3 shots compared to my 1.


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## Mike07 (Aug 8, 2018)

I had a really interesting experience yesterday in a club knockout match with an American guy who has been a member at the club for 3 years.

When he first joined, he submitted 3 cards and was given a playing handicap of 10... roll on 3 years and heâ€™s played 3 or 4 Q comps a year partly to keep the handicap active and partly because he prefers to play with friends and the weekly swindle... his handicap hasnâ€™t changed much and now sits at 10.6 as he hasnâ€™t played amazingly in the comps.

However...

He is still a member back in the US and therefore submits the score of every round he plays, as per the American system and his US handicap is 6.8..! A huge difference but it reflects is current form and playing ability based on the last 20 rounds.

The handicaps for our match was irrelevant as it was off scratch... but we talked about the different systems at length...

Personally Iâ€™m looking forward to the new system and I hope most golfers choose to submit more non completion and social rounds for handicap purposes... roll up and swindle rounds in my view in a perfect example of where the cards should be submitted...

On another note... the new system will enable a handicap to reduced (very slightly) even when we shoot outside the current systems buffer zone, meaning every shot counts and we still have a reason to play well when we are 3or4 over our handicap...


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 8, 2018)

Mike07 said:



			I had a really interesting experience yesterday in a club knockout match with an American guy who has been a member at the club for 3 years.

When he first joined, he submitted 3 cards and was given a playing handicap of 10... roll on 3 years and heâ€™s played 3 or 4 Q comps a year partly to keep the handicap active and partly because he prefers to play with friends and the weekly swindle... his handicap hasnâ€™t changed much and now sits at 10.6 as he hasnâ€™t played amazingly in the comps.

However...

He is still a member back in the US and therefore submits the score of every round he plays, as per the American system and his US handicap is 6.8..! A huge difference but it reflects is current form and playing ability based on the last 20 rounds.

The handicaps for our match was irrelevant as it was off scratch... but we talked about the different systems at length...

Personally Iâ€™m looking forward to the new system and I hope most golfers choose to submit more non completion and social rounds for handicap purposes... roll up and swindle rounds in my view in a perfect example of where the cards should be submitted...

On another note... the new system will enable a handicap to reduced (very slightly) even when we shoot outside the current systems buffer zone, meaning every shot counts and we still have a reason to play well when we are 3or4 over our handicap...
		
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Most roll ups and swindles are played with gimmies so cant be used and I suspect most wont put in social scores because they just want to enjoy the game without having to think about any HV stuff


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## Mike07 (Aug 8, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most roll ups and swindles are played with gimmies so cant be used and I suspect most wont put in social scores because they just want to enjoy the game without having to think about any HV stuff
		
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Not always... some of our Wednesday roll up play in the mid week comp so will putt out.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 9, 2018)

Mike07 said:



			Not always... some of our Wednesday roll up play in the mid week comp so will putt out.
		
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So they are already Q cards....

The key point is that you can currently submit a supplemental rounds in exactly the same way as you will be able to in the future; this aspect is a complete no change one.(with the possible exception of lower handicaps)


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## Orikoru (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most roll ups and swindles are played with gimmies so cant be used and I suspect most wont put in social scores because they just want to enjoy the game without having to think about any HV stuff
		
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Yeah, I'll never hand in a social round. We use gimmes, drops when you lose your ball etc. It's just a fun round and I'd rather not be thinking about my score that much or my handicap.


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2018)

Mike07 said:



			I had a really interesting experience yesterday in a club knockout match with an American guy who has been a member at the club for 3 years.

When he first joined, he submitted 3 cards and was given a playing handicap of 10... roll on 3 years and heâ€™s played 3 or 4 Q comps a year partly to keep the handicap active and partly because he prefers to play with friends and the weekly swindle... his handicap hasnâ€™t changed much and now sits at 10.6 as he hasnâ€™t played amazingly in the comps.

However...

He is still a member back in the US and therefore submits the score of every round he plays, as per the American system and his US handicap is 6.8..! A huge difference but it reflects is current form and playing ability based on the last 20 rounds.

The handicaps for our match was irrelevant as it was off scratch... but we talked about the different systems at length...

Personally Iâ€™m looking forward to the new system and I hope most golfers choose to submit more non completion and social rounds for handicap purposes... roll up and swindle rounds in my view in a perfect example of where the cards should be submitted...

On another note... the new system will enable a handicap to reduced (very slightly) even when we shoot outside the current systems buffer zone, meaning every shot counts and we still have a reason to play well when we are 3or4 over our handicap...
		
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judging by the American golfers i've see playing my club, the handicaps are way lower at home than they would be if they played here


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## jim8flog (Aug 9, 2018)

My 'problem' with using swindle rounds for handicap purposes is that we always play off the yellows.

I KNOW SSS ETC ETC   but there is a difference, notable on the par 3s which are not affected by the SSS and big differences  on 2 par 5s and 2 par 4s.


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## USER1999 (Aug 9, 2018)

My problem with using swindle cards for handicapping is the time it would add to the round. Yes, it should not add much, but in practice, it just would. In medal, no one just walks up and taps in these 'gimmies'. They mark, wait, replace, align, stalk out, etc, and then stick in a nervy poke, and have to do it all again.
Every Saturday and Sunday? No thanks.


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## chris3081 (Aug 9, 2018)

I think the new system will be good, swindles should be included as the more rounds studied the closer the handicap would be. The one thing people are bringing up is gimme's. 

I saw a vlog in Thailand where they drew a circle around each hole if your putt touches the line it then counts a gimme. This removes all questions marks of "is that good enough" or "is this a gimme".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most roll ups and swindles are played with gimmies so cant be used and I suspect most wont put in social scores because they just want to enjoy the game without having to think about any HV stuff
		
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Agree with this.  And tbh the last thing we want surely is for a club to be encouraging their members to hole out when playing roll-ups and other friendly rounds - do we want our four balls to be out there for 5 hours every time we play?


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## rulefan (Aug 9, 2018)

jim8flog;1875047
I KNOW SSS ETC ETC   but there is a difference said:
			
		


			Perhaps not on your course but if a par 3 is not reachable by a higher handicapper (ie over 200 yards) it can make a difference
		
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## rulefan (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agree with this.  And tbh the last thing we want surely is for a club to be encouraging their members to hole out when playing roll-ups and other friendly rounds - do we want our four balls to be out there for 5 hours every time we play?
		
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Interesting. My club has 4 major swindle groups. By common consent, they all require players to hole out if their score is to count. Apart from one notorious group, we have no pop issues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Interesting. My club has 4 major swindle groups. By common consent, they all require players to hole out if their score is to count. Apart from one notorious group, we have no pop issues.
		
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Our main Saturday one doesn't.  It's friendly - a bit of fun - and we aim to get round in under 4hours.  Four players holing out will make that very difficult to achieve.  And if we spill over towards the 4 and half hours to 5 hours by having all hole out, then the midday roll-up - which might not require holing - out will run up behind us and there would be an almighty mess.


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## rulefan (Aug 9, 2018)

Large Saturday swindles are strongly discouraged at my club.


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## USER1999 (Aug 9, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Large Saturday swindles are strongly discouraged at my club.
		
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Why? At mine, they spend the majority of the money spent accross the bar, and the majority spent on food, be it breakfast or lunch. What club would not want that revenue?


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## rulefan (Aug 10, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Why? At mine, they spend the majority of the money spent accross the bar, and the majority spent on food, be it breakfast or lunch. What club would not want that revenue?
		
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The course is full with either comps or social BBs but not large swindles.


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## Slab (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our main Saturday one doesn't.  It's friendly - a bit of fun - and we aim to get round in under 4hours.  Four players holing out will make that very difficult to achieve.  And if we spill over towards the 4 and half hours to 5 hours by having all hole out, then the midday roll-up - which might not require holing - out will run up behind us and there would be an almighty mess.
		
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An extra half hour for a 4-ball to hole out! Them's mighty generous gimmies


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our main Saturday one doesn't.  It's friendly - a bit of fun - and we aim to get round in under 4hours.  Four players holing out will make that very difficult to achieve.  And if we spill over towards the 4 and half hours to 5 hours by having all hole out, then the midday roll-up - which might not require holing - out will run up behind us and there would be an almighty mess.
		
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What distance are you giving gimmeeâ€™s from if you reckon it would add an hour to the round!


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## rulefan (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our main Saturday one doesn't.  It's friendly - a bit of fun - and we aim to get round in under 4hours.  Four players holing out will make that very difficult to achieve.  And if we spill over towards the 4 and half hours to 5 hours by having all hole out, then the midday roll-up - which might not require holing - out will run up behind us and there would be an almighty mess.
		
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If all 4 players take the max pace of play allowance of 40 seconds for the 'gimme', this would add 48 minutes to the round.
Do your groups really take 40 seconds for these 'gimmies' and all 4 players on every hole? Two players playing 10 second gimmies on every hole takes 6 minutes total.


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## duncan mackie (Aug 10, 2018)

rulefan said:



			If all 4 players take the max pace of play allowance of 40 seconds for the 'gimme', this would add 48 minutes to the round.
Do your groups really take 40 seconds for these 'gimmies' and all 4 players on every hole? Two players playing 10 second gimmies on every hole takes 6 minutes total.
		
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Reality will be somewhere in the middle. With a 4 ball there's a lot more likelihood of at least 1 player marking, and obviously replacing etc , what might otherwise be reasonably given, to avoid standing on a line etc (not debating whether they should or shouldnt!)

If I was to guess the impact I would probably go for about 15 mins time difference for a 4 ball.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 19, 2018)

Question.

Can cat 1 now submit cards at anytime?


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## upsidedown (Nov 19, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Question.

Can cat 1 now submit cards at anytime?
		
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Yes, as there will not be any catogories any more


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## Jacko_G (Nov 19, 2018)

upsidedown said:



			Yes, as there will not be any catogories any more
		
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Thanks.

Still reading and trying to get my head round all the change but I genuinely think it's a positive change.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 19, 2018)

Another positive I can see which hasn't been mentioned is that one or two very good bandit scores won't/can't influence CSS.

Just need to get into the "swing" of it and hopefully my understanding will improve as I play.


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## cliveb (Nov 19, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Another positive I can see which hasn't been mentioned is that one or two very good bandit scores won't/can't influence CSS.
		
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Unless I've misunderstood the process, bandit scores don't affect CSS anyway. It is based on the percentage of players who achieve buffer or better - doesn't matter how much better.


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## Wolf (Nov 19, 2018)

Been doing a lot of reading on this trying to work it out as I'm just returning to handicap golf and seems to me that it will be a better simpler way to work it all out.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 19, 2018)

cliveb said:



			Unless I've misunderstood the process, bandit scores don't affect CSS anyway. It is based on the percentage of players who achieve buffer or better - doesn't matter how much better.
		
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Depends on the size of the field. At Mach Dunes it can easily effect the CSS.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 19, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Depends on the size of the field. At Mach Dunes it can easily effect the CSS.
		
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Either you are reading clive's post differently from the way he wrote it, or you still have a mis conception.
It doesn't matter how excessive returned scores are, only whether they are in buffer or better, or not - completely binary.
For example, a 22 handicap golfer playing a par 72 SSS 72 course can return 33, 43 or 53 points in a stableford competition and the impact on the CSS calculation will be exactly the same for each.
However, if the field is less than 10 and the small field calculation routine is being used, things will change completely!


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## rulefan (Nov 19, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Question.

Can cat 1 now submit cards at anytime?
		
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Not until some time in 2020 and then only pre-declared rounds (ie Supplementary Scores)


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## Jacko_G (Nov 19, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Not until some time in 2020 and then only pre-declared rounds (ie Supplementary Scores)
		
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Yes, I was meaning under the new system.


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## Mobie (Nov 24, 2018)

Check out www.popeofslope.com for some interesting articles on the history of the system


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## Wolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Mobie said:



			Check out www.popeofslope.com for some interesting articles on the history of the system
		
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Just checked it out, terrible website lay out and really boring to read. Typical American site makes something that should be simple to explain incredibly long winded and confusing.


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## rulefan (Nov 25, 2018)

Much of it is out of date and there are known faults in the math


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## Titleist3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Does anyone have a spreadsheet or formula I can use for the new handicap system?


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## HamiltonGuy (Nov 26, 2018)

Iâ€™m a bit confused when does this actually come into play? Will your club have to provide the slope rating or is there a way of finding this out?


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## duncan mackie (Nov 26, 2018)

HamiltonGuy said:



			Iâ€™m a bit confused when does this actually come into play? Will your club have to provide the slope rating or is there a way of finding this out?
		
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Rating hasn't been completed, but once the system is fully in play it will be listed in the same way as SSS is currently. Equally all the calculations will be done for you.
Implementation is scheduled for 2020 - exact date isn't fixed yet as the ratings need resolving, some software needs finalising etc
Club representatives have already attended initial meetings.


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## rulefan (Nov 26, 2018)

HamiltonGuy said:



			Iâ€™m a bit confused when does this actually come into play? Will your club have to provide the slope rating or is there a way of finding this out?
		
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Further to Duncan's reply. 
In addition to the Course Rating (CR) replacing the SSS, the Slope will be published and tables/software will automatically convert your Handicap Index to the handicap you will use for the round on that course from those particular tees (ie Course Handicap). ie it will do the slope effect calculation for you.

Although in theory the system will come into force in 2020, it is probable that different parts of the world will start sooner than others. This is partially due to playing seasons and because some national principles are already in force already and some have to make major changes to the calculations behind the scenes. eg the formula for converting CONGU or EGA handicaps for players with less than 20 scores is still being worked on. The distinction between 'tournament' and casual rounds in the US possibly has to be back calculated.

GB&I is predicted for last quarter of 2020.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 26, 2018)

Next we introduce cart girls, breakfast balls, mulligans, and we ride man.


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## rulefan (Nov 27, 2018)

Some useful FAQs

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Handicapping-FAQs-final.pdf


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Interesting read. Anyone know if the pre-registered (formerly supplementary rounds) will need to be formally registered before your round?

At the moment you can only play supplementary rounds at your home club, and you need to register this before you start playing.

Under the new system you can submit any social round but how would this work in practice. Impossible to â€˜pre-registerâ€™ given the logistics. Also seems the new system would be open to much more banditry.

All in all though, looking forward to this coming in. No more buffer or the stupid 0.1 increase. It will be a system that more accurately shows your current form
		
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yes you will have to pre register if its for handicap


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 28, 2018)

rulefan said:



			Some useful FAQs

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Handicapping-FAQs-final.pdf

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Thanks for sharing! Frustratingly highlights some of the reservations I've had about the readiness of the implementation with the frequency of terms like "it is hoped 'x' will be developed", "we anticipate 'x' being done", "this is still being discussed", "as technology develops" ...

Would MUCH rather they firmed this all up before setting a date for implementation. Changing something which affects every club member in the UK so dramatically without every scenario being covered is slightly bonkers!


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## rosecott (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Interesting read. Anyone know if the pre-registered (formerly supplementary rounds) will need to be formally registered before your round?

*At the moment you can only play supplementary rounds at your home club*, and you need to register this before you start playing.

Under the new system you can submit any social round but how would this work in practice. Impossible to â€˜pre-registerâ€™ given the logistics. Also seems the new system would be open to much more banditry.

All in all though, looking forward to this coming in. No more buffer or the stupid 0.1 increase. It will be a system that more accurately shows your current form
		
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You can play Supplementaries at any club of which you are a member.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2018)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Thanks for sharing! Frustratingly highlights some of the reservations I've had about the readiness of the implementation with the frequency of terms like "it is hoped 'x' will be developed", "we anticipate 'x' being done", "this is still being discussed", "as technology develops" ...

Would MUCH rather they firmed this all up before setting a date for implementation. Changing something which affects every club member in the UK so dramatically without every scenario being covered is slightly bonkers!
		
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Welcome back stranger!

Share your frustration but it was happening with, or without us (CONGU) so we were always going to be playing catchup in some areas.

Some scenarios only follow from developing strategy...and some strategy was never really strategy in the first place!

However, looked at another way, its only the aspirational abilities around where scores are physically entered and associated robust elements to these scores that represent either change or challenge at this point. The rest is 'only IT'...ðŸ¤”

So, yes it's work in progress. But from what I can see they have recognised the areas they need to resolve before implementation as currently set out. It could probably be implemented without individual entry of away rounds and associated proofs etc very quickly indeed for those courses already rated, fudged easily enough in the meantime for those which haven't.


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			How would this work in practice? Sign in at the club where you are playing?
		
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if its a comp at the club  (open) same as you do now, not 100% sure you can just do bounce games at away clubs, unless you are a member there too. maybe someone else may know about this??


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			if its a comp at the club  (open) same as you do now, not 100% sure you can just do bounce games at away clubs, unless you are a member there too. maybe someone else may know about this??
		
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As it says in the most recent document (linked above) they are working on this...
Aspirationally they want to support the maximum number of returned scores but, big but here, they also wish to retain a robust system with what they consider the necessary checks and balances.
IMO something will have to give quiete significantly on one side of the above equation in the early days (above and beyond what's already scheduled to develop!)


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## Jacko_G (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Yeah itâ€™s more the social round at a random club. Effectively the new system allows us to submit supplemtary rounds at any course
		
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Are you sure about that? I thought it was only clubs you are a member of?

Not sure they could police it otherwise!


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Welcome back stranger!
...

The rest is 'only IT'...ðŸ¤”
		
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Hi there! I thought I'd break my 4-year posting hiatus! Hope you're well!

This latter bit is the part that scares me! This is the website for the closest club to my parents house back home - http://www.blackpoolparkgc.co.uk/. I will personally pay* for anyone that can manage to book a tee-time online ... and this should be the bread and butter! Fear the implementation of an automated handicapping system might actually cause the place to implode!





*I definitely won't pay.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 28, 2018)

I'm also quite lucky in that the clubs that I'm a member of both already have a slope rating.


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Yes, seems so.

Having read the first couple of pages again it does say you need to sign in at the club you are playing to pre-register.
		
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if thats the case you would have to give the club your CDH number and register you are playing a counting score, other wise you would get people just posting the good ones


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2018)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Hi there! I thought I'd break my 4-year posting hiatus! Hope you're well!

This latter bit is the part that scares me! This is the website for the closest club to my parents house back home - http://www.blackpoolparkgc.co.uk/. I will personally pay* for anyone that can manage to book a tee-time online ... and this should be the bread and butter! Fear the implementation of an automated handicapping system might actually cause the place to implode.

*I definitely won't pay.
		
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Really shouldn't confuse booking systems with handicap software...dont think many run the former on the latter.

The handicap software vendors have huge vested interests in having there product (1) capable of running the calcs and (2) capable of supporting the central hub.

Neither represents a significant challenge for them - by far the biggest challenge their business has in in the management and access to records which is already in place for current ie admin and members.

CDH has been with us for a period as is massively better than it was. It's also been heavily focused already on access and links so, whilst representing a risk it shouldn't be anything that can't be resolved at current levels e.g. supplementals. It's the aspirational expansion that represents the biggest risk.


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## Wilson (Nov 28, 2018)

Wonâ€™t it be as simple as registering on the PC/terminal that you are going to play a handicap round? Most courses have these, so should be easy?


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			In an ideal world we would have an app where we can register, but this does leave the system open to banditry
		
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Indeed. Very easy to 'register' that you're going to play and then sit in the bar and have a few pints. Particularly with the potential effect of knocking a decent score out of the 20 ahead of big events. Worst that happens at the moment is a 0.1 increase.

In principle, I like the whole idea of the system, particularly as somebody often balloted out of Scratch Opens! New system should reflect more current form, which should create more playing opportunities in these events for 4/5 handicaps in decent form, versus 2/3 handicaps who haven't played to it for a couple of years!


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2018)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Indeed. Very easy to 'register' that you're going to play and then sit in the bar and have a few pints. Particularly with the potential effect of knocking a decent score out of the 20 ahead of big events. Worst that happens at the moment is a 0.1 increase.

In principle, I like the whole idea of the system, particularly as somebody often balloted out of Scratch Opens! New system should reflect more current form, which should create more playing opportunities in these events for 4/5 handicaps in decent form, versus 2/3 handicaps who haven't played to it for a couple of years!
		
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Strangely, if you run the numbers the theoretically most impacted will be those who play the least number of scoring rounds, with their scores being most divergent from their handicap.

Play a lot and they even out relatively quickly; and if ESR and CRI implementations are made as triggered they map pretty fast. 

The sharp eyed will pick up on the theoretical tag....there will be un-published fudge factors/restrictions/limitations/additional hurdles within the application of the new system that are nominally designed to prevent people quickly building handicaps etc  As with the existing guidelines only time will tell how they work/impact in practice.

For the vast majority of regular players it's anticipated that there will be little movement; but for a small percentage, especially those that have returned few scores over the years, the numerical difference from current handicap could be significant.

I've gone up 3 strokes in the last 2 years, and have only played to buffer a couple of times, twice better by 1 stroke and a load of stableford scores in the 20s...so on the face of it I look a shoe in for a big increase. Running the numbers it looks like I might go up 1 stroke...and if I hadn't got lucky (incredibly lucky on course and the CSS went up 1 as well) last week my CONGU handicap would only be 0.1 away from that stroke as well.


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## BTatHome (Nov 28, 2018)

Much of the new text seems to indicate only using the average of best 8 scores. Was there not an earlier text about having some additional factors, in such to not allow large jumps in handicap when scores drop off? Protecting a lower handicap from someone that just adds lots of high handicap scores to artificially increase their playing handicap.


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## User 99 (Nov 28, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Are you sure about that? I thought it was only clubs you are a member of?

Not sure they could police it otherwise!
		
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Surely your cdh number shpuld be enough to log in to any system so you could pre register regardless of where you are playing.


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			Strangely, if you run the numbers the theoretically most impacted will be those who play the least number of scoring rounds, with their scores being most divergent from their handicap.

Play a lot and they even out relatively quickly; and if ESR and CRI implementations are made as triggered they map pretty fast.
		
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This is the thing which I think is good. There's at least 4 guys I'm close with who have handicaps of between 0-2 who haven't actually played to or under that for a few years. Most of them play 10-15 recreational rounds and maybe 3 competitions a year - which means that they go up 0.3 at most each year. However, they are all ahead of me in the queue when it comes to playing in Scratch Opens at nice clubs, so they can shoot 85+ in their 3 comps each year around some fantastic golf courses!

New system helps in two ways; firstly their handicap should go up organically with 'non-tournament' rounds also able to count. Secondly, those 85's will affect their handicap's more severely than the 0.1's they may currently accrue.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 28, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			.

The handicap software vendors have huge vested interests in having there product (1) capable of running the calcs and (2) capable of supporting the central hub.

.
		
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I specifically asked at a recent WHS seminar, how the system would work at clubs that currently run a standalone computer system for managing comps and handicaps and how any player entry terminal could communicate back when there was no network infrastructure within a club. Was basically told that the player entry terminal could also (as well as being part of a local network) operate as a totally standalone device using a 4G mobile signal to report scores back to the "central system", using its down dedicated software (i.e. different software than that a club might run to administer its competitions).

So the terminal could report scores to the central system that the local club computer will never know about. It is my belief therefore that the entire handicapping process will be centralized away from local club computers, whose sole purpose in the future will be to run competition management software and report score data directly entered into the local computer back to the central system. They themselves will do no handicap calculations.

I suggested at the meeting that this could potentially impact the business models of many ISV's, and it was confirmed that a couple had decided to withdraw from the business as a result of the centralization.


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## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			You make a good point. The new system should be more reflective of your current form and the bad rounds could affect you much more than just a 0.1 increase.

I once played a match against an American at my old club. He only played 3 comps a year in the UK to keep his handicap active and then it was social golf and match play knockouts. His UK handicap was around 10, and never went much higher or lower. However, he also kept his American handicap from his home club in the states as they have to submit every single round they play, and guess what..? His American handicap was something like 5.3..!! The difference was because he had been playing fantastic golf for the last 2 years and his 'form' was lower single figures, but his UK handicap stayed at 10. Needless to say, he heavily beat me in the quarterfinals of the knockouts and I was giving him 1 shot..!
		
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TBH most of the yanks ive seen play and played against would be double the handicaps they have in the US if they played all there comps here


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## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2018)

nickjdavis said:



			I specifically asked at a recent WHS seminar, how the system would work at clubs that currently run a standalone computer system for managing comps and handicaps and how any player entry terminal could communicate back when there was no network infrastructure within a club. Was basically told that the player entry terminal could also (as well as being part of a local network) operate as a totally standalone device using a 4G mobile signal to report scores back to the "central system", using its down dedicated software (i.e. different software than that a club might run to administer its competitions).

So the terminal could report scores to the central system that the local club computer will never know about. It is my belief therefore that the entire handicapping process will be centralized away from local club computers, whose sole purpose in the future will be to run competition management software and report score data directly entered into the local computer back to the central system. They themselves will do no handicap calculations.

I suggested at the meeting that this could potentially impact the business models of many ISV's, and it was confirmed that a couple had decided to withdraw from the business as a result of the centralization.
		
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Yes - although this is the model is only a very slight extension of the existing model involving CDH.


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## rulefan (Nov 28, 2018)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Thanks for sharing! Frustratingly highlights some of the reservations I've had about the readiness of the implementation with the frequency of terms like "it is hoped 'x' will be developed", "we anticipate 'x' being done", "this is still being discussed", "as technology develops" ...

Would MUCH rather they firmed this all up before setting a date for implementation. Changing something which affects every club member in the UK so dramatically without every scenario being covered is slightly bonkers!
		
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Most, if not all will be available as apps on phones, PCs etc. There is a massive investment by the ISVs around the world to provide cloud based systems for start up.Different handicap regions will be ready before others. Golf Australia are proposing to start sometime in 2019 as they are so advanced and have fewer software changes to make.
As has been indicated before, different regions will implement different parts at different times, as and when they can. Pre-declare recreation play on your phone wherever you are. Enter your score on any PC available or when you get home. But midnight is the deadline for any Daily Score Adjustment to be taken into account


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## Aussie Swinger (Nov 28, 2018)

Lots of questions and the â€˜usual fear of the unknownâ€™. As I posted previously I have been on the WHS here in Australia since when I arrived from Trinidad. They would not accept the handicap I had from there (I think a slightly modified USA handicapping system) so had to go through the whole process of regaining handicap. In a nutshell, it is your best 8 from 20, multiplied by 0.93 to get a â€˜playingâ€™ handicap. They do give you a handicap after 3 cards to get you going, but expect you to try and get your 8 in a period of 3 months if at all possible.
  I have played at some tougher tracks (higher slope) and some easier tracks (lower slope) than my home course. On the tougher track I have generally received an extra shot st times.
 After 9 months Iâ€™m within .5 of the handicap I had when I left the UK 3 years ago to initially go trinidad.
  IMHO it is a far fairer system. You do go up and down based on your current ability slightly more than and this is better reflected. Itâ€™s easier to play at any other course in a comp. I ring up, pass them my Aus golflink number and the instantly get my name and exact handicap on that day. When I arrive a computerised card is given to me with my handicap and handicap I receive for that course based on slope compared to my home course.
  No one likes change, but in  this change I have only seen the benefits. 
   I would be amazed if anyoneâ€™s handicap is different by morethan 2 strokes either side of what they are on now if they already hold a handicap and play regularly.


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Great to hear.

Iâ€™ve played the slope system in Spain quite a few times and it works well especially as you can have comps where players pick the tee they want to play from and the number of shots you get is adjusted.

Iâ€™m all for this change, and eventually we might even be able to do away with a scorecard and use our phones instead  step too far..?
		
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Don t tell Richart this, he still uses pay phone boxes!


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## Aussie Swinger (Nov 28, 2018)

I might also mention that the score I shoot that day is updated by 6pm local. I can log on golflink with my unique number and see the update as well as go back and look at all my data, handicap score, DSR, SR, Par of that course, adjusted gross, played to, slope played to and new handicap based on all these factors. I can go over any of this data for any round and itâ€™s all presented in an easy to read table, newest at top, flowing to oldest at the bottom.


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2018)

Aussie Swinger said:



			Lots of questions and the â€˜usual fear of the unknownâ€™. As I posted previously I have been on the WHS here in Australia since when I arrived from Trinidad.
		
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You have been using the GA system in Australia. WHS has not yet been implemented.
GA have a significant advantage over many other organisations as the changes they have to make to the software and culture are relatively few. 

A WHS handicap index (ie GA Handicap) will be calculated by averaging the best 8 of the most recent 20 scores.  GA will continue to use the .93 multiplier. Stableford handicapping of all Stroke competitions will continue.  GAâ€™s existing pre-nominated social scores regulation will continue without amendment. The WHS will include a statistical daily rating mechanism (which will feature different formulas to the existing DSR formulas) and Slope. Updates will take place at midnight subject to local time zones.

There will be two changes of substance.
1. There will be a Hard Cap of 5 strokes as per GAâ€™s current regulation.  There will also be a Soft Cap currently set at 3 strokes which will be a new regulation for Australia. 
2. The Daily Handicap calculation will be changed to incorporate the difference between the Scratch Rating and the Par.


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Iâ€™m all for this change, and eventually we might even be able to do away with a scorecard and use our phones instead  step too far..?
		
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That is part of the plan. As the system will be cloud based, data entry can be by any 'computerised' method. However cards will still be required initially as the marker has to confirm your score somehow. Presumably digital signatures will feature later.


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2018)

I am interested in how the CCA will work.

Is it envisaged that the computer system will generate this at the end of the day automatically and for handicaps to be adjusted immediately. (assuming all card have been entered in to the system.

for example our current system for Suplementaries is that they are returned to the office and the Handicap secretary enters them when convenient she does not work on Fridays, only One Saturday a month and very rarely on a Sunday.

We have 3 comps on a weekend inc Friday and they are not normally closed until  Monday afternoon.


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			Great to hear.

, and eventually we might even be able to do away with a scorecard and use our phones instead  step too far..?
		
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As I understand Intelligent Golf allows you to input your score on a hole by hole basis as you play the round and then download the info to the computer at the end of the round.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm going to sit back and chill till it comes in. It'll work out eventually, and hopefully my handicap doubles to 12.


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			As I understand Intelligent Golf allows you to input your score on a hole by hole basis as you play the round and then download the info to the computer at the end of the round.
		
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but surely someone else is marking your score so how can you use your own phone to put your score it, might be fine in the US where you can mark your own card, but over here maybe not?


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm going to sit back and chill till it comes in. It'll work out eventually, and hopefully my handicap doubles to 12.
		
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Jacko, don't sell yourself short, i'm going for 16 at least


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			but surely someone else is marking your score so how can you use your own phone to put your score it, might be fine in the US where you can mark your own card, but over here maybe not?
		
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They haven't been able to do that for a couple of years now but they don't have to pre-declare


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			for example our current system for Suplementaries is that they are returned to the office and the Handicap secretary enters them when convenient she does not work on Fridays, only One Saturday a month and very rarely on a Sunday.
.
		
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Bloody luxury
Ours can take a month or more.....


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			but surely someone else is marking your score so how can you use your own phone to put your score it, might be fine in the US where you can mark your own card, but over here maybe not?
		
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 I was just commenting on the fact that the software is already in place to do this. It saves the hassle of waiting for your turn  at the computer to enter the score. Currently you could just pop the card in the box.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 29, 2018)

jim8flog said:



			I am interested in how the CCA will work.

Is it envisaged that the computer system will generate this at the end of the day automatically and for handicaps to be adjusted immediately. (assuming all card have been entered in to the system.

for example our current system for Suplementaries is that they are returned to the office and the Handicap secretary enters them when convenient she does not work on Fridays, only One Saturday a month and very rarely on a Sunday.

We have 3 comps on a weekend inc Friday and they are not normally closed until  Monday afternoon.
		
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Effectvely...yes. 

In respect of how your club handles supplementaries you are exactly the same as my club....in the scenario you describe, the supplementary scores will not be considered for any CCA calculation.

Regarding competitions...as it was explained at the WHS meeting...it doesn't matter if a competition has been closed or not...as long as the scores for the day have been entered on the day they were played, they will be uploaded that night and will contribute to any CCA adjustment. If you play a comp on say a Sunday and your Competitions Committee don't input the scores until Monday then the scores will not count towards Sundays CCA....there will be no retrospective recalculation...if the scores are entered on the Sunday (by committee or player terminal) then they will contribute to Sundays CCA, even if the comp hasn't been formally "closed". It doesn't matter if all the scores from a comp are entered, or only some of them, the central system will "work with what its got".

Effectively what people need to get their head around is the fundamental separation of the Handicapping Process from the Competitions Administration Process. Currently we see them as "integrated", in that the CSS, players adjustments for blow up holes and that players handicap adjustments are not known until the comp is closed. In the future they will be separate independent processes.


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2018)

Thanks


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## duncan mackie (Nov 30, 2018)

OLgolfer said:



			yes, intelligent golf allows this. At my place they call it a 'Personal Scorecard'. I've never used it yet so not sure how it works given you are marking your own virtual card?
		
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You are returning a score to the system. Your card is still returned (to the box or wherever designated by your club) where it is supposed to be checked before being filed and retained for a significant period. This isn't designed to trigger a debate on whether they still are by most clubs; just highlighting the current rule book!
As highlighted earlier, the challenging equation is going to be the smooth and easy return of scores against the robust nature of those scores (put another way, why gaff around with a CCA if people can return scores than in themselves have any element of risk.

It will get sorted - there's no turning back now.


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