# New Labour Leader



## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2020)

The candidates for leader do not look very inspiring.
They all seem entrenched within their old values, no one seems capable of uniting the party.
Ian Murray going for deputy leader is perhaps a little ray of sunshine, as the only Scots MP doubtful he will get elected


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 7, 2020)

I don't understand the return of fascistic politics throughout the west, but I can help thinking that immigration has a lot to do with it.

What's the major difference between Labor (Labour?) and Liberal Democrats, and why are working class people, especially in England, voting Tory?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

I have to disagree Doon.  I could easy go for Keir Starmer, Jess Phillips or Lisa Nandy. 

Yes KS might be portrayed as being the 'wrong' side of the Brexit argument for many _New Tory_ voters - but in the coming years I feel that negativity to KS from the Brexit Debate will fade, as awareness of the Brexit Impact issues and undelivered promises will heighten...and KS would be a strong and forceful debater on these issues - able to take Johnson on, on the issues and matters of Fact and undelivered promises.

Nandy - perhaps seems a bit young, Phillips I like but (like Nandy) has a less deep understanding of government and the detail to draw upon to take on Johnson.

 Rebecca Long Bailey, Emily Thornberry and Clive Lewis.  All fine but for different reasons would not work for me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't understand the return of fascistic politics throughout the west, but I can help thinking that immigration has a lot to do with it.

What's the major difference between Labor (Labour?) and Liberal Democrats, and w*hy are working class people, especially in England, voting Tory*?
		
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Labour/LibDems - it's complicated.  Simply Labour traditionally being for the working class as it was formed as the Political Party of the Unions. LibDems came out of the old centre/slightly left of centre Liberal Party and the Social Democratic Part (SDP) - the SDP being a centrist 1980s breakaway from a Labour Party at the time heading hard left..

On *this *- Some will tell you the whys and disconnects - others will tell you the lies and disinformation.  It has been very messy - but almost certainly coming...as Labour headed way out Left again.

Immigration - let's not go there (it was all Merkel's fault in any case)


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## oxymoron (Jan 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The candidates for leader do not look very inspiring.
They all seem entrenched within their old values, no one seems capable of uniting the party.
Ian Murray going for deputy leader is perhaps a little ray of sunshine, *as the only Scots MP doubtful he will get elected*

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Why did you have to bring that in to the discussion ?  Surely if he is a genuine candidate it matters bugger all where he represents or
if he is from Scotland .


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## fundy (Jan 7, 2020)

is new different to next?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2020)

I think it is an interesting list and the intial thoughts of a coronation for RLB seem a long way off the mark. Starmer is blighted by his role in the Shadow Cabinet but maybe on his own he will create a new set of policies which make us forget that. I don't know enough about Lisa Nandy but she seems to speak well so far so it will be interesting to see how she develops.

The best, at this stage, is Jess Philips. Untainted by Corbyn, speaks well, comes across as a normal person, rare in modern politics. She needs to knock off the rough edges in her performance, I think she can look a bit too finger pointy and angry at times, but that is easily manageable. I think she would be the one the Conservatives would fear the most, not for the immediate parliaments but going forwards.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			Why did you have to bring that in to the discussion ?  Surely if he is a genuine candidate it matters bugger all where he represents or
if he is from Scotland .
		
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Calm down old boy, It's simply for the fact that English/Welsh MP's would, I imagine, be more likely to support a candidate from their own region/country.
Murray will receive no support from Scots MP's because there are none [well apart from himself]
Saw somewhere that he was bookies favourite for the Deputy job so perhaps we will just wait and see.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calm down old boy, It's simply for the fact that English/Welsh MP's would, I imagine, be more likely to support a candidate from their own region/country.
Murray will receive no support from Scots MP's because there are none [well apart from himself]
Saw somewhere that he was bookies favourite for the Deputy job so perhaps we will just wait and see.
		
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The thinking perhaps that the Scottish electorate are more likely to vote Labour if they see a Scot at the heart of Labour Party policy making?  Meanwhile the rest of the country thinks that they are pretty fed up with Scots telling the English what to do


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The thinking perhaps that the Scottish electorate are more likely to vote Labour if they see a Scot at the heart of Labour Party policy making?  Meanwhile the rest of the country thinks that they are pretty fed up with Scots telling the English what to do 

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The English don't seem to understand that this is where they are going wrong.


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## chrisd (Jan 7, 2020)

I think all the candidates are brilliant choices


Should ensure a Tory government fir at least 10 years 😁


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## Dando (Jan 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I think all the candidates are brilliant choices


Should ensure a Tory government fir at least 10 years 😁
		
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I thought it was a promo for the circus  when I saw the photos. 😂


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## Robster59 (Jan 7, 2020)

I was going to say that unless Labour choose a candidate far away from the Corbyn mantra, and move to someone left of centre rather than way left then they will not stand a chance of getting elected. 
However, a lot of what went wrong for Labour at the last election can be put down to Jeremy Corbyn.  There may have been some good ideas in what they were proposing but the prospect of him being Prime Minister (and the people he had finished up on his shadow cabinet going on to the cabinet) was so unpalatable to many (including myself, a lifelong Labour supporter) that people chose to vote for another party.  Here in Scotland it was the SNP.  In England and Wales it was Conservative.  When Boris Johnson is seen as the better of the two leader choices, then you know a party is in trouble. 
A new leader of the labour party may have a similar ethos BUT if they present it correctly, explain it to people and make it creditable then it may work but I still think it's going to be hard if Labour stay on the same path.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't understand the return of fascistic politics throughout the west, but I can help thinking that immigration has a lot to do with it.

What's the major difference between Labor (Labour?) and Liberal Democrats, *and why are working class people, especially in England, voting Tory?*

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Two words ”Jeremy Corbyn”. In essence imagine a man who has terrorists as best friends, who were enemies of this country. people throughout the country could not connect with him.  My mining industry was finally decimated by Margaret Thatcher. If she was on fire, my bladder would remain full. That’s the polite version. Go into mining heartlands of Yorkshire, Wales, Northeast and they would of set her on fire. Yet miners were heartbroken at having to choose between Jeremy Corbyn or the Tories. Hundreds of thousands of Labour supporters left and voted Tory.
Our last general election was A UK version of Boris Johnson v Jeremy Corbyn. Two clowns. As against a USA version of Trump V Clinton, another two clowns. It’s a shame YOB, that you never joined the forum a few months before the election. It was dynamite on here. It was generally agreed that the last lot of MPs that represented us before the election was the worst and biggest mountain of manure  that this country has ever had. A lot of that manure did everything possible to stop Brexit/us leaving Europe. They paid for there misrepresentation by not being elected this time.
If the two words of Jeremy Corbyn are not enough. Heres another two. Diane Abbott. Where to start with her. She is comedy gold.
I had me knuckles rapped for saying she is rammel. It was worth it😉


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## Fade and Die (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The thinking perhaps that the Scottish electorate are more likely to vote Labour if they see a Scot at the heart of Labour Party policy making?  Meanwhile the rest of the country thinks that they are pretty fed up with Scots telling the English what to do 

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Give it a rest Hinge and Bracket....



(Doons on the left btw)


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## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2020)

Originally thought Jess Phillips would do a good job untill I heard her on BBC Breakfast, she was terrible apart from her covert attack on Long Bailey.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Give it a rest Hinge and Bracket....

View attachment 28899

(Doons on the left btw)
		
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😂😂😂😂😂😂

I have always wondered if Doon was a him, her or they.🤔

kiddin doon  kiddin 😘


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2020)

I can just see it, Long-Bayley with Dawn the Nodding Donkey as Deputy or how about Barny Rubble.  The Tories have the gift that just keeps on giving 😂


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Two words ”Jeremy Corbyn”. In essence imagine a man who has terrorists as best friends, who were enemies of this country. people throughout the country could not connect with him.  My mining industry was finally decimated by Margaret Thatcher. If she was on fire, my bladder would remain full. That’s the polite version. Go into mining heartlands of Yorkshire, Wales, Northeast and they would of set her on fire. Yet miners were heartbroken at having to choose between Jeremy Corbyn or the Tories. Hundreds of thousands of Labour supporters left and voted Tory.
Our last general election was A UK version of Boris Johnson v Jeremy Corbyn. Two clowns. As against a USA version of Trump V Clinton, another two clowns. It’s a shame YOB, that you never joined the forum a few months before the election. It was dynamite on here. It was generally agreed that the last lot of MPs that represented us before the election was the worst and biggest mountain of manure ( cow shit in the USA) that this country has ever had. A lot of that manure did everything possible to stop Brexit/us leaving Europe. They paid for there misrepresentation by not being elected this time.
If the two words of Jeremy Corbyn are not enough. Heres another two. Diane Abbott. Where to start with her. She is comedy gold.
I had me knuckles rapped for saying she is rammel. It was worth it😉
		
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Brexit, the way it looks here, is only popular in England for whatever reason. The Scots want it and the Northern Irish are once again estranged from Ireland without it. I've no opinion on something I know nothing about, however.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Brexit, the way it looks here, is only popular in England for whatever reason. The Scots want it and the Northern Irish are once again estranged from Ireland without it. I've no opinion on something I know nothing about, however.
		
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Not popular in England and Wales it was a very close vote.
NI and Scotland voted to remain in the EU, Scotland by a 62/38% margin.
England's large population vote carried the day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			😂😂😂😂😂😂

I have always wondered if Doon was a him, her or they.🤔

kiddin doon  kiddin 😘
		
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I'm flattered, handsome looking guy and a doctor as well.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Brexit, the way it looks here, is only popular in England for whatever reason. The Scots want it and the Northern Irish are once again estranged from Ireland without it. I've no opinion on something I know nothing about, however.

Doon says it’s not popular in Scotland. Hmm The Scotish national party ( SNP) want independance from the UK but want to join the EU which the exact opposite of independence. The SNPs mandate in the last election was to join the EU if it gets independence. Lots of ifs. But the Scottish people had a choice to for the SNP or headless Donald Trumps. It’s choice was that poor. The major parties have imploded in Scotland. But does voting for SNP mean wanting out. Speaking to the Jocks I kno, it’s a categoric no.
Doon is correct, the Brexit vote in England was close. But the last general election BoJo and the Tories categorically said a vote for us is a vote for Brexit. The Torres massively triumphed giving both Labour and the lindens not just a bloody nose but actually putting them in Accident and emergency as they got such a kicking.
Norhtern Ireland am not sure what’s going to happen there, this border problem re goods, let’s just say watch this spac.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			BoJo and the Tories categorically said a vote for us is a vote for Brexit
		
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If you want to compare the referendum with the GE and use the GE result as a validation or otherwise of the referendum result - then fine - but it is then fair to note that more folks voted for parties _other _than the Tories, than voted _for _the Tories...and only the Tories and TBP were unconditional about leaving.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214601301583114240


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2020)

Anyway.  I'd return to voting Labour were Keir Starmer leader.  Whether he'd still be there come next GE only time will tell.  But I think in the coming few years KS will be able to put and keep focus on Johnson and his Brexit and GE promises - even when the Right Wing Press and the Tories will be whanging on about his role in a debate and process now done and dusted.  They can do that.  What I think will matter to the electorate will be Tories delivering on their promises under intense scrutiny by the Opposition parties, and the Labour Party once more becoming a credible party of government - and trusted in that their policies aren't just pie-in-the-sky socialism.


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## Grant85 (Jan 8, 2020)

A few comments... the Corbyn brand and manifesto seemed to work just about ok in 2017 in that they got a huge vote share and stopped a Tory majority. Obviously it wasn't enough on the day, but what changed so dramatically in 2.5 years.

Personally think it was death by 1,000 cuts;

* New Tory leader - ok Boris isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he crucially wasn't Theresa May and human nature is for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Comparison to Corbyn who was a bit of a busted flush and clearly didn't inspire people like he did in 2017. 

* Brexit - no denying that a sizeable minority of people voted for Boris because they either wanted Brexit to happen asap or they accepted that Brexit should happen and another hung parliament / possible referendum wasn't going to end this any time soon. 

* Antisemitism - this has been a catastrophic mismanagement for Corbyn that only got worse. I remember when it 1st started and expected it to be a 2 minute story, where he is able to do a series of interviews and shut it down. But years later and he still hadn't managed this and the more times people hear something, the more it sticks. I personally do not believe Corbyn is anti-semitic, but he is certainly pro-Palestine and if not anti-Isreal, then anti-Isreal having the settlement they currently enjoy. Also a lot of the supporters are anti-semitic and no doubt take a harder, more vocal line that Corbyn has recently. 

* Left wing agenda. Ultimately there were too many people with decent jobs and comfortable lives that felt if there was just a chance that would be put at risk, they didn't want to sign up for it. Whether these people voted Tory, Lib Dem or stayed at home... it obviously didn't help to build the coalition of working class and middle class people that any party needs to form a majority. 

That said, if you take out the 1st 3 bullet points, then possible that someone could get a Labour victory over the line in 4 years (like JC almost did in 2017). But it's going to be tough and to give Labour the best chance they need someone with a more moderate platform and wider appeal. I'd say Kier Starmer is the man the Tories fear the most and who they should go with.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you want to compare the referendum with the GE and use the GE result as a validation or otherwise of the referendum result - then fine - but it is then fair to note that more folks voted for parties _other _than the Tories, than voted _for _the Tories...and only the Tories and TBP were unconditional about leaving.
		
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that as always been the case though.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not popular in England and Wales it was a very close vote.
NI and Scotland voted to remain in the EU, Scotland by a 62/38% margin.
England's large population vote carried the day.
		
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Spin.
The vote was a national one not regional, the UK voted in favour of Brexit and as Scotland and Northern Ireland are members of the uk that included them. All this talk of Scotland having a mandate to stay is just propaganda from the Nationalists. 

How on earth you can say it wasn't a popular vote in England and Wales is just more distortion of the truth, the majority voted for it and in large numbers.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			A few comments... the Corbyn brand and manifesto seemed to work just about ok in 2017 in that they got a huge vote share and stopped a Tory majority. Obviously it wasn't enough on the day, but what changed so dramatically in 2.5 years.

Personally think it was death by 1,000 cuts;

* New Tory leader - ok Boris isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he crucially wasn't Theresa May and human nature is for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Comparison to Corbyn who was a bit of a busted flush and clearly didn't inspire people like he did in 2017. 

* Brexit - no denying that a sizeable minority of people voted for Boris because they either wanted Brexit to happen asap or they accepted that Brexit should happen and another hung parliament / possible referendum wasn't going to end this any time soon. 

* Antisemitism - this has been a catastrophic mismanagement for Corbyn that only got worse. I remember when it 1st started and expected it to be a 2 minute story, where he is able to do a series of interviews and shut it down. But years later and he still hadn't managed this and the more times people hear something, the more it sticks. I personally do not believe Corbyn is anti-semitic, but he is certainly pro-Palestine and if not anti-Isreal, then anti-Isreal having the settlement they currently enjoy. Also a lot of the supporters are anti-semitic and no doubt take a harder, more vocal line that Corbyn has recently. 

* Left wing agenda. Ultimately there were too many people with decent jobs and comfortable lives that felt if there was just a chance that would be put at risk, they didn't want to sign up for it. Whether these people voted Tory, Lib Dem or stayed at home... it obviously didn't help to build the coalition of working class and middle class people that any party needs to form a majority. 

That said, if you take out the 1st 3 bullet points, then possible that someone could get a Labour victory over the line in 4 years (like JC almost did in 2017). But it's going to be tough and to give Labour the best chance they need someone with a more moderate platform and wider appeal. I'd say Kier Starmer is the man the Tories fear the most and who they should go with.
		
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I agree with much of this, however.

In your first bullet point don't you mean ' a sizable majority'

In your third bullet point you don't mention  the large numbers of traditional working class labour voters who felt they couldn't vote for Corbyn as they didn't want him as Prime Minister and we're fatigued by Labours non descript stance on Brexit.

I also have to disagree with your faith in Starmer as a suitable leader. He was one of the main supporters of a second referendum which was a very unpopular policy with labour voters, he was also one of the leading labour politicians who could not explain in simple terms where his party stood with Brexit. He comes over as a typical fluffy civil servant who should be shuffling paperwork in Brussels and not someone who could drag labour back into a place where they become a force to reckon with. Although saying that I cannot see anyone else in the party having the attributes to do it either.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

The Tories must be dancing for joy at the possibility R Long Bailey wins but it wouldn't make for good Government of the UK.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 8, 2020)

Going to suggest after a few years of Boris (particularly if he chooses to follow advice from JR-M) his new 'friends' will realise the enormous mistake they have made... Can see them returning to Labour, in droves, irrespective of who the leader is...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

Again, I don't know enough about what being in the EU entails to have an opinion on your brexit. 

What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.

To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.

There are only three good things about America.  

ONE:  We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world.  The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.

Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us.  We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Again, I don't know enough about what being in the EU entails to have an opinion on your brexit.

What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.

To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.

There are only three good things about America. 

ONE:  We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world.  The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.

Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us.  We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.
		
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I think you'll find that Britain has no intention of leaving the continent of Europe. Don't make the common mistake that the EU and Europe are the same thing. There are countries in Europe who have no intention of being a member of the EU.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.
		
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How can we leave a continent?  Plate tectonics moves far too slowly for that.  

As regards rejecting increasing Federalism, we've had relations with continental Europe for thousands of years, they won't just stop if we are not in the EU.   Especially as they are so dependent on selling us stuff....and we rather like buying German cars and French Vine!    

Not sure why you need to offshore your government to trade or travel  

I assume you are extolling your self loathing of your country in this particular thread as Corbyn is famous for his hatred of this country ...   sadly his successor will almost certainly be similar.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			I assume you are extolling your self loathing of your country in this particular thread as Corbyn is famous for his hatred of this country ...   sadly his successor will almost certainly be similar.   

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Self loathing?  Actually, there are things that I genuinely love about my country. Between two great oceans, it's one of the most magnificent tracts of real estate in the world. What we're doing with it , however, is not something about which it's easy to be proud.  Sometimes I feel closer to my Italian ethnicty than I do to my American nationality, and except for shoes, sunglasses, and Ferraris, there's no reason for that. Even our Italian food is better than theirs.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2020)

That's fair enough, and I always enjoy discussing non US affairs with Americans.  

Was in San Francisco  a few years back and folk were talking about Mugabe. 

After several moments someone apologised and asked where that was!

(True story...wish it wasn't)


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Again, I don't know enough about what being in the EU entails to have an opinion on your brexit.

What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.

To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.

There are only three good things about America.

ONE:  We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world.  The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.

Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us.  We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.
		
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Stopping membership of the EU  doesn't mean we will stop trading with Europiean countries, as a matter of fact its very much to their advantage as we buy much more from them than we sell.
Of course we want to do more trade with the USA and other countries around the world and on better terms with lower tariffs.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			After several moments someone apologised and asked where that was!

(True story...wish it wasn't)
		
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I wouldn't even think to doubt that.
By the way, you don't use the letter "z" as much as we do.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 8, 2020)

Barry Gardiner


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## Dando (Jan 8, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



  Barry Gardiner 

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Has he got fed up flogging cillit bang? 😂


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## Tashyboy (Jan 8, 2020)

Hang on a minute I smell a rat


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## Tashyboy (Jan 8, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Again, I don't know enough about what being in the EU entails to have an opinion on your brexit.

What I do assume is that if Britain leaves the continent, it's stuck relying on a closer relationship with us.

To the extent that we're in total chaos with no relief in sight, I can't image how that would be good for you.

There are only three good things about America. 

ONE:  We have great food and it's relatively cheap vis a vis the rest of the world.  The food, our dog, and our kids are all that I miss when we're away.
TWO: Our gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else.
THREE: we have baseball and our football instead of cricket and your football.

Other than that, Europe (and the British Isles) has it all over us.  We're more socially regressive than Pre-WWII Europe.
		
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having spent 5 days in San Francisco, I thought Missis T was going to have to go on the game. It was massively expensive for breakfast $12 bucks for cereals 😳 thank god I found maple biscuits.Hmmmmmmm.


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## Grant85 (Jan 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with much of this, however.

In your first bullet point don't you mean ' a sizable majority'

In your third bullet point you don't mention  the large numbers of traditional working class labour voters who felt they couldn't vote for Corbyn as they didn't want him as Prime Minister and we're fatigued by Labours non descript stance on Brexit.

I also have to disagree with your faith in Starmer as a suitable leader. He was one of the main supporters of a second referendum which was a very unpopular policy with labour voters, he was also one of the leading labour politicians who could not explain in simple terms where his party stood with Brexit. He comes over as a typical fluffy civil servant who should be shuffling paperwork in Brussels and not someone who could drag labour back into a place where they become a force to reckon with. Although saying that I cannot see anyone else in the party having the attributes to do it either.
		
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On the 1st 2point - ok not a sizeable majority, but just a sufficient chunk of swing voters as to make a difference.

I'm not sure a second referendum was as unpopular as you seem to think among Labour supporters. I'd argue that going full Brexit would have been MUCH less popular among Labour supporters and they would likely have lost far more support to Lib Dems & Greens. During the election there was a majority of votes for pro-remain candidates and I can't see a scenario in which a pro Brexit Labour party would have had any chance of getting a sniff of Government, even in coalition.

Pro-remain support was divided among several parties, while the pro Brexit support was disciplined enough to stick with the Tories.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 8, 2020)

I don't know what politics are like over the pond, but we didn't have the eighteen year old vote yet in 1964 so my first general election was in 1968.

In 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, and 2016, I voted for the Democratic candidates, up and down the ticket. For more than a few of them, I did it holding my nose but I did it.  If my sainted mother returned to earth and ran for public office as a Republican--not that she ever would, of course--I would vote for her Democratic opponent.

It is simply impossible, even if a revolver were pointed at my temple, to imagine myself voting for a Republican. I swear I would rather take the bullet. From the look of some of these posts, this behavior is less prevalent in the UK.  People actually act as though they have a choice to make.

My choice comes in the Democratic primaries when we registered members of the Democratic Party nominate our candidates. In the general election, I have no choice to make. I vote for my party's nominee even if I can't stomach him or her.  It's rarely the person for whom I voted in the Democratic primary anyway.

At the bottom of it all, I don't vote for people. I'm not a people person. I like dogs.  I vote for policy positions on the issues and general ideology.  Republican ideology is and always has been repugnant to me.  

But from what  I'm reading here, it seems that you folks are a lot less reliable on the matter.  Labor folks voted Tory because they didn't like Corbyn.  I would have voted for him holding my nose if I disliked him that much, but I wouldn't consider voting Tory.   Here, of course, I'm equating Labor with Democrats and Tories with Republicans. I'm sure that it's not that simple.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2020)

There are 59 Scottish seats and the SNP have 48 of them, they were largely won at the expense of Scottish Labour.

This has contributed hugely to the inability of Labour to get close to the Tories.

So it matters not who the next leader is, they (using the word of the decade there) have to win back seats north of the border, and I don’t see that happening any time soon


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2020)

Perhaps we are just better at doing politics 👍👍


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Perhaps we are just better at doing politics 👍👍
		
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The rest of the world must be really crap at it then.....


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The rest of the world must be really crap at it then.....
		
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I only meant better than the USA, but then there's Russia, China, Saudi, Iran , Iraq, North Korea................


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2020)

Thinking about this should labour look to elect another Corbynite?   Maybe its better for them to be a proper Left party and for Tories to be proper Right, the idea of choosing between a centre left and right means there is little difference between them so it matters not which are elected.  There could of course be a centerist party like the LibDems to balance things up.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 9, 2020)

Damn



spongebob59 said:



  Barry Gardiner 

Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215363140923293702


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## Beezerk (Jan 10, 2020)

Some Labour clown (not sure if he's in the leadership race) saying we should have a referendum on the Royal Family 🤣🤣🤣.
Where do they get these loons from.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Some Labour clown (not sure if he's in the leadership race) saying we should have a referendum on the Royal Family 🤣🤣🤣.
Where do they get these loons from.
		
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As a Labour "clown" he presents no concern at all... Unlike the Tory clowns, supposedly in charge of running the country, who present a danger on a daily basis...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Some Labour clown (not sure if he's in the leadership race) saying we should have a referendum on the Royal Family 🤣🤣🤣.
Where do they get these loons from.
		
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I'm thinking the same place as the Tories get such as Marc Francois - and he has influence on government...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Some Labour clown (not sure if he's in the leadership race) saying we should have a referendum on the Royal Family 🤣🤣🤣.
Where do they get these loons from.
		
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He can't get enough MPs to back him, they need 22, so I'm guessing this was his last attempt to gain favour and some publicity. Muppet.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He can't get enough MPs to back him, they need 22, so I'm guessing this was his last attempt to gain favour and some publicity. Muppet.
		
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Without a doubt a "muppet"... But, as has been proven recently... Muppets can and do make it to No.10...


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 10, 2020)

How do your PMs walk around without armed body guards? 
That wouldn't work out so well here.
Idiot Trump has not only the US Secret Service but his own private security as well.
You'd need a drone to get to the SOB.


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## 2blue (Jan 10, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I don't know what politics are like over the pond, but we didn't have the eighteen year old vote yet in 1964 so my first general election was in 1968.

In 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, and 2016, I voted for the Democratic candidates, up and down the ticket. For more than a few of them, I did it holding my nose but I did it.  If my sainted mother returned to earth and ran for public office as a Republican--not that she ever would, of course--I would vote for her Democratic opponent.

It is simply impossible, even if a revolver were pointed at my temple, to imagine myself voting for a Republican. I swear I would rather take the bullet. From the look of some of these posts, this behavior is less prevalent in the UK.  People actually act as though they have a choice to make.

*My choice comes in the Democratic primaries when we registered members of the Democratic Party nominate our candidates. In the general election, I have no choice to make. I vote for my party's nominee even if I can't stomach him or her.*  It's rarely the person for whom I voted in the Democratic primary anyway.

At the bottom of it all, I don't vote for people. I'm not a people person. I like dogs.  I vote for policy positions on the issues and general ideology.  Republican ideology is and always has been repugnant to me. 

But from what  I'm reading here, it seems that you folks are a lot less reliable on the matter.  Labor folks voted Tory because they didn't like Corbyn.  I would have voted for him holding my nose if I disliked him that much, but I wouldn't consider voting Tory.   Here, of course, I'm equating Labor with Democrats and Tories with Republicans. I'm sure that it's not that simple.
		
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I'm with you on that my friend as are many others. However we have many other voters who vote for personal gain.....  on one very troubled occasion we've even had working class turn to Black-leg, Scab & strike-break to add their support to a cruel far-right Tory Leader, who's callous impact is still affecting our Nation, 30 years on. So I well understand how difficult you must find our politics especially through a grossly politically, unbalance Forum, as this. In England the vast majority of golf Club members support Tory, right leaning views.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 10, 2020)

2blue said:



			In England, the vast majority of golf club members support Tory, right leaning views.
		
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The very same holds true with golf and the Republican Party in America.  I suppose the game wasn't designed for the Proletariat!  My club is not member owned. It's been for some time one of several enterprises owned to launder money from "other sources" by a "legitimate businessman."  It thus has enough working class members who didn't have to worry about huge initial equity payments and don't have to worry about surprise assessments.  The terribly posh in the area have several other places to go that are quite nearby.  But WE have the Donald Ross course built in 1906!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As a Labour "clown" he presents no concern at all... Unlike the Tory clowns, supposedly in charge of running the country, who present a danger on a daily basis...
		
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Better Clowns IMO


2blue said:



			I'm with you on that my friend as are many others. However we have many other voters who vote for personal gain.....  on one very troubled occasion we've even had working class turn to Black-leg, Scab & strike-break to add their support to a cruel far-right Tory Leader, who's callous impact is still affecting our Nation, 30 years on. So I well understand how difficult you must find our politics especially through a grossly politically, unbalance Forum, as this. In England the vast majority of golf Club members support Tory, right leaning views.
		
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Its only a golf forum so just some people with time on their hands having a discussion, nothing more.  I cant see how most of them support Tory right leaning views but you are entitled to that view of course.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 15, 2020)

Excellent perfomange by Lisa Nandy on AN.

cracking set of pins too.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 15, 2020)

They should scrap the lot of them and start again, they have learned nothing....(from last weeks vote)


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## harpo_72 (Jan 15, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			They should scrap the lot of them and start again, they have learned nothing....(from last weeks vote)
View attachment 28963

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It’s of no consequence they will have to wait up to 5 years unless the wheels come off .. and if that happens they are the right people.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2020)

Hopefully it will be Long-Bayley.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 16, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			They should scrap the lot of them and start again, they have learned nothing....(from last weeks vote)
View attachment 28963

Click to expand...

In five years, BJ's "borrowed" voters will have had enough of him and it will be  a whole new ballgame...


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## MegaSteve (Jan 16, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Excellent perfomange by Lisa Nandy on AN.

cracking set of pins too.
		
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I thought she gave a good account of herself... Certainly didn't allow AN to bully her..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

Must have a look at the interview.  I do like LN - but her contributions on AN _This Week _were always more for a bit of light political banter rather than serious interviewing and so I have not been sure how well she'd do under serious scrutiny.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2020)

KS on BBC news comes across as very weak in comparison, imo.


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## 2blue (Jan 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I thought she gave a good account of herself... Certainly didn't allow AN to bully her..
		
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A very, very impressive performance the like of which we haven't seen by any of the current MP's of any persuasion. Knocked spots off AN as he tried to irritate & annoy....  also didn't get waylaid by his interruptions designed to disorientate & confuse.  A very competent & polished performer who'll take the Blathering-Boris apart given the opportunity. His gutter press must be trawling through the archives to find something on her that the Dib, dibbers can suck-up.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			In five years, BJ's "borrowed" voters will have had enough of him and it will be  a whole new ballgame...
		
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I do get the sense that they are trying to at the very least pay lip service to growth in 'the regions'. Quite a few good intentions coming out and the 'rescue' of Flybe helps as they are the primary way that people fly between the regions.  I think they have a real opportunity to be in power for a long time if they get the regional balance right.  As I know 5 years is a long time away, but if Labour make the wrong choice and stay in thrall to momentum they will really struggle.  

Then again if we end up with a no deal and they think the answer to bringing the country is Mark Francois crowdfunding some big ben bongs then they are equally as screwed as Labour.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

Watching QT from Liverpool last night I think Labour in England are going down the same road as Labour in Scotland. Off to oblivion.
Having a clueless House of Lords [and Ladies] Baroness representing them on the panel certainly will not help.
My OP said that none of the candidates were inspiring........still the case, they all seem 3rd class to me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

Hope to goodness they don't go Rebecca Long-Bailey - she seems undoubtedly smart and coherent in her words (and my Mrs has said that she likes her - must get an update) - but I am afraid she rather looks and comes across as a bit of a prissy cold fish, and whilst that wouldn't bother me personally - I'm thinking that that, plus her seeming closeness to Corbyn will, I fear, just not work for many voters now ex-Labour - and make her a sitting duck for the scurrilous Tory press.

I had for all of 'Corbyn-time' thought of KS as a more appropriate leader - but had never really consider LN or JP.  Now I find that they both have strong attractions for me.  My concern if either LN or JP became leader would be that KS took some form of umbrage and chose to drop from the Labour leadership team - and I believe that Labour cannot afford to lose such as he.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hope to goodness they don't go Rebecca Long-Bailey - she seems undoubtedly smart and coherent in her words (and my Mrs has said that she likes her - must get an update) - but I am afraid she rather looks and comes across as a bit of a prissy cold fish, and whilst that wouldn't bother me personally - I'm thinking that that, plus her seeming closeness to Corbyn will, I fear, just not work for many voters now ex-Labour - and make her a sitting duck for the scurrilous Tory press.

I had for all of 'Corbyn-time' thought of KS as a more appropriate leader - but had never really consider LN or JP.  Now I find that they both have strong attractions for me.  My concern if either LN or JP became leader would be that KS took some form of umbrage and chose to drop from the Labour leadership team - and I believe that Labour cannot afford to lose such as he.
		
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If Labour are so desperate they have to rely on Starmer then they really are in trouble.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If Labour are so desperate they have to rely on Starmer then they really are in trouble.
		
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You criticise KS when you consider the Tory PM and quality of his front bench and leading backbench voices such as Francois - that would be funny were it not so depressing.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hope to goodness they don't go Rebecca Long-Bailey - she seems undoubtedly smart and coherent in her words (and my Mrs has said that she likes her - must get an update) - but I am afraid she rather looks and comes across as a bit of a prissy cold fish, and whilst that wouldn't bother me personally - I'm thinking that that, plus her seeming closeness to Corbyn will, I fear, just not work for many voters now ex-Labour - and make her a sitting duck for the scurrilous Tory press.

I had for all of 'Corbyn-time' thought of KS as a more appropriate leader - but had never really consider LN or JP.  Now I find that they both have strong attractions for me.  My concern if either LN or JP became leader would be that KS took some form of umbrage and chose to drop from the Labour leadership team - and I believe that Labour cannot afford to lose such as he.
		
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Long-Bailey reminds me of Mrs Merton


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

Dando said:



			Long-Bailey reminds me of Mrs Merton
		
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I just cannot imagine her representing us on the International stage e.g. G7, UN Security Council etc, it would be embarrasing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			I just cannot imagine her representing us on the International stage e.g. G7, UN Security Council etc, it would be embarrasing.
		
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LOL - nearly as embarrassing as Johnson representing us anywhere - as he is already doing...bong!


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 17, 2020)

From way out here, it looks like Labor needs somebody who's electable like Tony Blair was.

I'm not sure how you felt there, but most of us here liked Tony Blair.

The only reason Tories aren't embarrassed by Boris is that he's not _our_ guy.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You criticise KS when you consider the Tory PM and quality of his front bench and leading backbench voices such as Francois - that would be funny were it not so depressing.
		
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They won an election by a landslide so cant be that shabby.  Remind me what happened to Labour in the election?


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - nearly as embarrassing as Johnson representing us anywhere - as he is already doing...bong!
		
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Like him or loath him it is curious that when interviewed they kept asking him why the public could 'relate' to him. Reports I've seen suggest that other country leaders are also able to relate to him !!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They won an election by a landslide so cant be that shabby.  Remind me what happened to Labour in the election?
		
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It wasn't a landslide - Tony Blair had landslides - and even if you consider that it was - that means nothing since many voters voted Tory holding their nose - disgusted by the antics of Johnson.  I don't need reminded about Labour - I didn't vote for them - and beside - Labour are not in government...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It wasn't a landslide - Tony Blair had landslides - and even if you consider that it was - that means nothing since many voters voted Tory holding their nose - disgusted by the antics of Johnson.  I don't need reminded about Labour - I didn't vote for them - and beside - Labour are not in government...
		
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It was a landslide. When you consider the number of seats won by the SNP and the forecasted  seats by the LibDems an 80 seat majority is amazing.   Starmer seems to me a typical Civil Servant paper pusher who is out of his depth as a minister, he has an aura of the left wing elitists who the party have just rejected.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Like him or loath him it is curious that when interviewed they kept asking him why the public could 'relate' to him. Reports I've seen suggest that other country leaders are also able to relate to him !!
		
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King 'o the Midden.
Hard to believe that you could get four other UK wide political party leaders who were even less competent than Johnson.
Winner of the losers race.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2020)

Listening to AN interviewing Lisa Nandy I couldn't help but think that whenever he asked her about such as experience, trustworthiness, background, competency, authenticity, relateability - she must have been sorely tempted to reflect that if Johnson can become Prime Minister then such things are relatively unimportant.  But she - and the other candidates - know that it is pointless making such a comparison.

Thought she was good.  Don't know if she'll get the Trades Union backing each needs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2020)

Rumours going around that Jess Philips is about to withdraw as she can not get the required backing of unions and consituency parties. A great shame that the system works this way. It really should be down to the MP's and the members alone.

Two down, four to go.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Rumours going around that Jess Philips is about to withdraw as she can not get the required backing of unions and consituency parties. A great shame that the system works this way. It really should be down to the MP's and the members alone.

Two down, four to go.
		
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Pity - was liking what JP was saying...but not too hung up about it as for me Lisa Nandy addresses the same constituency in the same way.  Age-wise - clearly not too young at 40 as Blair had just turned 41 when he became leader of the party in 1994.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2020)

Jess Philips withdraws and Lisa Nandy gets support of GMB Union...so she's still running...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

Nandy and Thornbury both absolutely clueless about what is actually occurring in Scotland and emphasising why Labour will never re-gain any kind of power base there.
Tartan Tories.  indeed.


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nandy and Thornbury both absolutely clueless about what is actually occurring in Scotland and emphasising why Labour will never re-gain any kind of power base there.
Tartan Tories.  indeed.

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to be fair you could've just stopped after the 6th word


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## spongebob59 (Jan 27, 2020)

ET doing her bit for Anglo/Scottish relationship


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221704750309302273


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			ET doing her bit for Anglo/Scottish relationship


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221704750309302273

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She actually hates the SNP for successfully adopting policies that any sensible Labour party would have adopted.
I can understand her hurt, but Hey Ho  let's just keep dragging the Labour party to the far left to counter attack the far right Tory government.
Avoid popular middle road policies at any cost.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2020)

Interesting reading of quite large numbers of new Labour Party members - intent on voting anyone but RL-B..


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## MegaSteve (Jan 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She actually hates the SNP for successfully adopting policies that any sensible Labour party would have adopted.
I can understand her hurt, but Hey Ho  let's just keep dragging the Labour party to the far left to counter attack the far right Tory government.
Avoid popular middle road policies at any cost.
		
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I am going to suggest it's more to do with a previous SNP leaders stated intent to punish 'ordinary' Londoners... As a London MP that wouldn't have gone down well with her constituents...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am going to suggest it's more to do with a previous SNP leaders stated intent to punish 'ordinary' Londoners... As a London MP that wouldn't have gone down well with her constituents...
		
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Let it go, I think it is probably only you who remembers that.
Nicola has been boss for nearly six years now.


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## patricks148 (Jan 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting reading of quite large numbers of new Labour Party members - intent on voting anyone but RL-B..
		
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the new members maybe, but the  few hundred thousand who voted in Jezza last time may think different


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			the new members maybe, but the  few hundred thousand who voted in Jezza last time may think different

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Sadly probably true.  If they do then for me it would be as if they had a death wish for the Labour party.


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## patricks148 (Jan 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sadly probably true.  If they do then for me it would be as if they had a death wish for the Labour party.
		
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thing is though, many many labour memebers want a more socialist Labour party, middle of the road little different from middle of the road conservative or Liberal, is going to make the changes to improve society..

Alas i think labour has had its day, i'm all right jackism and people happy to be fed lies about what going on in Britain have seen to that.

when are you moving to the socialst Utopia of Scotland


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2020)

When does "more socialist" dip into Marxism? 

Maybe a hard leftist, without a history of supporting our enemies could have won the election?


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## patricks148 (Jan 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			When does "more socialist" dip into Marxism? 

*Maybe a hard leftist, without a history of supporting our enemies could have won the election*?
		
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i doubt it the media would have used something against them.  who are "our Enemies" then?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			thing is though, many many labour memebers want a more socialist Labour party, middle of the road little different from middle of the road conservative or Liberal, is going to make the changes to improve society..

Alas i think labour has had its day, i'm all right jackism and people happy to be fed lies about what going on in Britain have seen to that.

when are you moving to the socialst Utopia of Scotland

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A big question for Labour is whether, by following a Corbyn trajectory, they'd ever be able to get 40 seats in Scotland...(yes - I know that 'ever' implies a very long time...but let's say within then next 10yrs)

 - moving is still on the agenda...and my Fortrose cousins would have us move there...but methinks that as much as my wife gets on great with these cousins and loves the Inverness area - it's probably just a bit of a stretch from Surrey.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i doubt it the media would have used something against them.  who are "our Enemies" then?
		
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You are a Naught boy
I shall have a stab at 'people who are not like us '. Followed by 'people who don't think like us'. then 'people who don't like us'.


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## patricks148 (Jan 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A big question for Labour is whether, by following a Corbyn trajectory, they'd ever be able to get 40 seats in Scotland...(yes - I know that 'ever' implies a very long time...but let's say within then next 10yrs)

 - moving is still on the agenda...and my Fortrose cousins would have us move there...but methinks that as much as my wife gets on great with these cousins and loves the Inverness area - it's probably just a bit of a stretch from Surrey.
		
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if she likes an outdoor lifestyle its great, TBH i now wouldn't choose to live anywhere else, we miss nice restaurants and nights out in London and St Albans, but what we have here more than makes up for it.
quality and cost of Golf courses though is the real thing for me where else could i be a member of 3 clubs (2 links) and still have change from £1500


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A big question for Labour is whether, by following a Corbyn trajectory, they'd ever be able to get 40 seats in Scotland...(yes - I know that 'ever' implies a very long time...but let's say within then next 10yrs)

 - moving is still on the agenda...and my Fortrose cousins would have us move there...but methinks that as much as my wife gets on great with these cousins and loves the Inverness area - it's probably just a bit of a stretch from Surrey.
		
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Labour's only chance of surviving in Scotland is to split from UK head office and come out in favour of Independence or strong Federalism
I can see SLab picking up quite a few votes from their old historical voters then.

Property prices on the west coast seem to be finally catching up with the east coast and both on rUK [I wonder why]
If HID likes Surrey you should take a look at Alloway property. and join a rising market.


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## Kellfire (Jan 28, 2020)

Imagine being so foolish as to believe all the nonsense spouted about Corbyn. 

There’s a massive difference between being unelectable because the voting public are gullible and being unelectable because you’d be a bad Prime Minister. Sadly for most of us, too many people were the former and we lost out at a chance at someone who could’ve been a true leader for everyone.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine being so foolish as to believe all the nonsense spouted about Corbyn.

There’s a massive difference between being unelectable because the voting public are gullible and being unelectable because you’d be a bad Prime Minister. Sadly for most of us, too many people were the former and we lost out at a chance at someone who could’ve been a true leader for everyone.
		
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*Imagine being so foolish as to believe all the nonsense spouted defending Corbyn*.  Its so easy to dismiss others views as foolish.

I apreciate a lot of people would have liked Corbyn as their Prime Minister, I strongly disagree with their opinion but respect that they have a right to hold it.  You seem to take the view that people like me are too gullible (stupid) not to see him as a great leader who could unify the. Country somehow.   I wouldn't dream of calling you gullible or suggest you were stupid for supporting him as that's your perogative,  just maybe you could give me the same respect to form a different view.


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## User20204 (Jan 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour's only chance of surviving in Scotland is to split from UK head office and come out in favour of Independence or strong Federalism
I can see SLab picking up quite a few votes from their old historical voters then.

.
		
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That is the only chance, otherwise they are finished and if they don't see it now it'll be too late for them, if it isn't already. 

I'm almost at a stage where I hate labour as much as I hate the tories and believe me, I HATE tories.


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*Imagine being so foolish as to believe all the nonsense spouted defending Corbyn*.  Its so easy to dismiss others views as foolish.

I apreciate a lot of people would have liked Corbyn as their Prime Minister, I strongly disagree with their opinion but respect that they have a right to hold it.  You seem to take the view that people like me are too gullible (stupid) not to see him as a great leader who could unify the. Country somehow.   I wouldn't dream of calling you gullible or suggest you were stupid for supporting him as that's your perogative,  just maybe you could give me the same respect to form a different view.
		
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The best example is this - I don’t respect you if you think Corbyn is antisemitic because it’s demonstrably untrue over a very long period of time.

Do you think he is?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

My own concern if RL-B were to become leader of the LP is simply that as a result of her connections to Corbyn - real or exaggerated it matters not, she would be (and already is) hostage to fortune.  The right wing press would tag RL-B with Corbyn's 'Marxist' tag - and would give her pelters for such connections and that tagging.  And the electorate who bought, sorry - agreed with, the characterisation of Corbyn this last time, will quite possibly be unwilling to about turn on it the next time with RL-B standing there portrayed by the right wing as a Corbyn 'doppelganger'/clone.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The best example is this - I don’t respect you if you think Corbyn is antisemitic because it’s demonstrably untrue over a very long period of time.

Do you think he is?
		
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I didnt suggest he was.  Reread my post and comment on what I did say.


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt suggest he was.  Reread my post and comment on what I did say.
		
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I’m asking you about a specific example of the most extreme lies peddled about Corbyn to discredit him. Do you believe he’s an antisemite?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’m asking you about a specific example of the most extreme lies peddled about Corbyn to discredit him. Do you believe he’s an antisemite?
		
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Ronnie Reagan it was I think who reminded us back then that the truth is what the people believe.  And what the people believe is what they read or hear - from what they read or who they listen to.  And if what they read or listen to even suggests that Corbyn is an antisemite - then to many that is what he is.  That Corbyn's opponents who might well know the actual truth, do not make any attempt to dissuade those then holding such a belief, is just a depressing fact of political life in the UK.  C'est la vie.  And it works all ways.  None are much better than any of the rest.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ronnie Reagan it was I think who reminded us back then that the truth is what the people believe.  And what the people believe is what they read or hear - from what they read or who they listen to.  And if what they read or listen to even suggests that Corbyn is an antisemite - then to many that is what he is.  That Corbyn's opponents who might well know the actual truth, do not make any attempt to dissuade those then holding such a belief, is just a depressing fact of political life in the UK.  C'est la vie.  And it works all ways.  None are much better than any of the rest.
		
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Am not to sure people thought he was an antisemite, I think that people thought he was slow to act upon Labour and parts of the party’s approach to antisemitism. Come what may, it was a small part of Corbyn and his inability to connect with Joe Public. He was loved by vast swathes of the Labour Party. But at the same time was loathed by many in the public, not disliked but loathed.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’m asking you about a specific example of the most extreme lies peddled about Corbyn to discredit him. Do you believe he’s an antisemite?
		
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I have no idea and have never accused him.    Now please respond to my original post.


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have no idea and have never accused him.    Now please respond to my original post.
		
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You didn’t ask anything. But I stand by the thought that anyone who truly believes Boris Johnson is a better man to lead this country than Jeremy Corbyn, especially if they’re actually aware of both men’s policies and ideas, then there’s a touch of sociopathy at work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

Lisa Nandy good interview this morning on James O'Brien (LBC).  Forthright and plain-speaking about many things - Trump's Israel/Palestine 'deal'; UK Government response to it; Anti-semetism in the Labour Party; Corbyn and LP top level leadership failures on anti-semetism, Brexit and the GE.


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## drdel (Jan 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Let it go, I think it is probably only you who remembers that.
*Nicola has been boss for nearly six years now*.

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Yet she claims the disasters of the Education, Services and the largest budget deficit in EU are all the fault of someone else.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yet she claims the disasters of the Education, Services and the largest budget deficit in EU are all the fault of someone else.
		
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Aye she is so awful I just can't understand why she keeps on getting re-elected.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You didn’t ask anything. But I stand by the thought that anyone who truly believes Boris Johnson is a better man to lead this country than Jeremy Corbyn, especially if they’re actually aware of both men’s policies and ideas, then there’s a touch of sociopathy at work.
		
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 I questioned your view of people who didnt vote Labour as being gullible. I challenge your view as it appears you are suggesting those with a different opinion of Corbyn to yours are stupid people who are not capable of understanding his worth. 
I am saying you're wrong and we should all accept that people have different preferences and make different choices for a number of reasons, not many of these are due to being gullible or stupid.    I'm calling you out on this and would like you to clarify why you hold such a view.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye she is so awful I just can't understand why she keeps on getting re-elected.

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Ah! So youve seen through her at last 👌


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I questioned your view of people who didnt vote Labour as being gullible. I challenge your view as it appears you are suggesting those with a different opinion of Corbyn to yours are stupid people who are not capable of understanding his worth.
I am saying you're wrong and we should all accept that people have different preferences and make different choices for a number of reasons, not many of these are due to being gullible or stupid.    I'm calling you out on this and would like you to clarify why you hold such a view.
		
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No point explaining - you didn’t vote Labour so you simply don’t get it or are a sociopath.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			But I stand by the thought that anyone who truly believes Boris Johnson is a better man to lead this country than Jeremy Corbyn, especially if they’re actually aware of both men’s policies and ideas, then there’s a touch of sociopathy at work.
		
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Sorry, but I  can say that as a life long Labour voter you are wrong, and Corbyn IS the reason I didn't vote Labour at the last GE (and no, I refused to vote Tory)


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## Kellfire (Jan 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sorry, but I  can say that as a life long Labour voter you are wrong, and Corbyn IS the reason I didn't vote Labour at the last GE (and no, I refused to vote Tory)
		
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No no, you’re proof that people believe the bad press.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			No point explaining - you didn’t vote Labour so you simply don’t get it or are a sociopath.
		
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Here you go again hanging labels on people who have a different opinion.  The fact I never voted Labour is nothing to do with the way you insult people who hold a different opinion; surely this suggests you are the one with the trait of a sociopath.  Also it appears you either cannot or are not prepared to justify your view.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			No no, you’re proof that people believe the bad press.
		
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If you're referring to the Guardian that I buy and read or the BBC then I suggest you take off your blinkers and smell the roses. Some of Corbyn's idea were absolutely bonkers and despite what you think, made him unelectable to anyone other than the hard left and Momentum.
If labour choose Long-Bailey, they will be in the same boat. They need fresh thinking and a different course to have any chance against Joris Bohnson next time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 30, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If you're referring to the Guardian that I buy and read or the BBC then I suggest you take off your blinkers and smell the roses. Some of Corbyn's idea were absolutely bonkers and despite what you think, made him unelectable to anyone other than the hard left and Momentum.
If labour choose Long-Bailey, they will be in the same boat. They need fresh thinking and a different course to have any chance against Joris Bohnson next time.
		
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Not disputing how people reacted to Corbyn this time round, but what I would ask is why did he come so close to TM in 2017 and before people blame TM we should also remember the buffoon only increased the tory vote by 329,767 votes or 1.4%.

So if we believe the media as to the number of Labour voters who switched to tory, then there is a discussion to be had that the buffoon was not as popular with the tory voters as people like to think and for Labour it might be enough to replace Corbyn with a Leader that carries a lot less baggage to win that support back during the next 4 years.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not disputing how people reacted to Corbyn this time round, but what I would ask is why did he come so close to TM in 2017 and before people blame TM we should also remember the buffoon only increased the tory vote by 329,767 votes or 1.4%.

So if we believe the media as to the number of Labour voters who switched to tory, then there is a discussion to be had that the buffoon was not as popular with the tory voters as people like to think and for Labour it might be enough to replace Corbyn with a Leader that carries a lot less baggage to win that support back during the next 4 years.
		
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My take is that his policies in 2017 were not as extreme or un-affordable as in 2019. I don't recall talk before the 2017 election of the vast amount of nationalisation that was policy in 2019. Add to that the seemingly confused/non-committal Brexit position and I can see why Labour did less well this time around.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not disputing how people reacted to Corbyn this time round, but what I would ask is why did he come so close to TM in 2017 and before people blame TM we should also remember the buffoon only increased the tory vote by 329,767 votes or 1.4%.

So if we believe the media as to the number of Labour voters who switched to tory, then there is a discussion to be had that the buffoon was not as popular with the tory voters as people like to think and for Labour it might be enough to replace Corbyn with a Leader that carries a lot less baggage to win that support back during the next 4 years.
		
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Against TM, I would say there was a surge of new members for Labour, and TM wasn't as popular because of her Brexit direction. Against JoBo, JC was seriously undone by his Brexit plan and most if not all of the country were fed up with Brexit regardless of how they voted. I also think some of JC's plans against JoBo were utter nuts, such as free broadband for everyone.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My take is that his policies in 2017 were not as extreme or un-affordable as in 2019. I don't recall talk before the 2017 election of the vast amount of nationalisation that was policy in 2019. Add to that the seemingly confused/non-committal Brexit position and I can see why Labour did less well this time around.
		
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Bunkermagnet said:



			Against TM, I would say there was a surge of new members for Labour, and TM wasn't as popular because of her Brexit direction. Against JoBo, JC was seriously undone by his Brexit plan and most if not all of the country were fed up with Brexit regardless of how they voted. I also think some of JC's plans against JoBo were utter nuts, such as free broadband for everyone.
		
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Agree with both, which again highlights it was more about how the Labour campaign got it wrong than the tories getting it right.

With a decent strong leader and sensible policies I don’t believe it would take much for Labour to expose the government flaws, especially with so much time to do it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2020)

Free broadband for everyone did not play out well in the rural areas, we all knew that free broadband was meant only for the city slickers,
Same as nationalising the railways, that only benefits towns and villages that actually have rail lines.

You would have expected a Socialist party to hit the Tories hard on Universal Credit, foodbanks and wealth inequality but they seemed very quiet on those subjects,


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			With a decent strong leader and sensible policies I don’t believe it would take much for Labour to expose the government flaws, especially with so much time to do it.
		
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That is the issue....sensible policies that the middle class/swinging voter can accept and buy into. just as Blair did. Preaching to the converted never works, nor does having policies that alienate those voters you need to get over the line.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 30, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			That is the issue....sensible policies that the middle class/swinging voter can accept and buy into. just as Blair did. Preaching to the converted never works, nor does having policies that alienate those voters you need to get over the line.
		
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But again, if we are to believe the media, it was the Working Class/grass roots support up North that Labour lost, not the Middle Class/swing voter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But again, if we are to believe the media, it was the Working Class/grass roots support up North that Labour lost, not the Middle Class/swing voter.
		
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Maybe lack of trust in Corbyn the Bogeyman, plus Labour just not having a clear and strong enough policy on post-Brexit immigration for the Working Class/grass roots voters up north.  I suggest that many of the referendum waverers would have been traditional Labour voters in northern England seats.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/immigration-one-biggest-issues-wavering-eu-referendum-voters


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## Wolf (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But again, if we are to believe the media, it was the Working Class/grass roots support up North that Labour lost, not the Middle Class/swing voter.
		
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Likely that Corbyn / Labour policies were to far fetched for many to believe they were affordable without hitting the Working Class despite the claims, the ambiguous nature of the party stance on Brexit and lack of ability to engage with them held sway for them to vote elsewhere.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 30, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Likely that Corbyn / Labour policies were to far fetched for many to believe they were affordable without hitting the Working Class despite the claims, the ambiguous nature of the party stance on Brexit and lack of ability to engage with them held sway for them to vote elsewhere.
		
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Agreed, and that’s why I don’t believe it would take too much to regain some ground, Labour were their own worst enemy, they weren’t and aren’t up against a strong leader/party with decent policies.

Obviously, only time will tell, and that’s why it’s so important for them to choose a decent Leader.


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## Wolf (Jan 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, and that’s why I don’t believe it would take too much to regain some ground, Labour were their own worst enemy, they weren’t and aren’t up against a strong leader/party with decent policies.

Obviously, only time will tell, and that’s why it’s so important for them to choose a decent Leader.
		
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Im not so sure its going to be as easy as some think for them to regain ground. The leadership debate is probably one if the most key ones its had in its history of the party right now. If they bring someone in of the Corbyn line that believes in what they did this time was right and keep the likee of momentum near the fore then I don't see a resurrection of them in near future regardless of how weak  the Tory leadership could be. If however they break from momentum and get a truly engaging candidate and return their policies to near centre left then without a doubt they certainly will close that gap. 

One things for certain this last election has proven people will vite for parties other than the main 2 protagonist and that post brexit engagement with the people on a grass roots level is key more than ever to delivery of political party success at the polling stations in future.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 30, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Im not so sure its going to be as easy as some think for them to regain ground. The leadership debate is probably one if the most key ones its had in its history of the party right now. If they bring someone in of the Corbyn line that believes in what they did this time was right and keep the likee of momentum near the fore then I don't see a resurrection of them in near future regardless of how weak  the Tory leadership could be. If however they break from momentum and get a truly engaging candidate and return their policies to near centre left then without a doubt they certainly will close that gap.

One things for certain this last election has proven people will vite for parties other than the main 2 protagonist and that post brexit engagement with the people on a grass roots level is key more than ever to delivery of political party success at the polling stations in future.
		
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We’ll have to wait and see what the media decide about the next Leader, unfortunately that’s were the agenda will be set, regardless of all the facts.

As for other parties, some of that will be led by how Brexit goes in the next 3-4yrs and if the idiot farage reinvents himself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

Labour need someone that we can ALL look at; listen to; and not immediately dismiss what we are hearing.  If at least some go away thinking - now what he/she said there makes some sense and I get what she/he is on about...that is the start.  Because it means that the person speaking is trusted to at least not be spouting utter nonsense - and with some unspoken agenda. 

In my thinking Labour will not win 'back' voters (I put _back _in quotes as not doing so implies some form of historic ownership of a section of the electorate and it is that misguided thinking - or indeed arrogance - that may be at the core of Labour's current problem with the electorate) by revealing themselves as some sort of Messiah for the Working Class - with the electorate undergoing an epiphany.  No - Labour has to eat the elephant one bite at a time - and as they take a bite they must slowly chew and digest - and understand what they are eating...as it were - before they take another bite.

But first - get folk hearing what you are saying - and listening to , and thinking about, what you say.  And not smiply immediately dismissing what is said out of hand.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 30, 2020)

Going to suggest that many 'regular' Labour voters wanted something the party had given no indication they were ready/willing to deliver... And, a scattergun selection of promises wasn't going to cover their deficiencies...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Going to suggest that many 'regular' *Labour voters wanted something the party had given no indication they were ready/willing to deliver*... And, a scattergun selection of promises wasn't going to cover their deficiencies...
		
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And what do you think that was...?


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## MegaSteve (Jan 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what do you think that was...?
		
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I believe we all know it was the Bword they wanted...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2020)

I think one big differences between the two elections was that Corbyn had much more public exposure by this election and people didnt like what they were seeing. In essence an old man with extremest views who stumbled over his words; was manipulated into a position he was not suited for and either unable or incapable of expressing clearly what Labours position was on just about anything but especially on Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think one big differences between the two elections was that Corbyn had much more public exposure by this election and people didnt like what they were seeing. In essence an old man with extremest views who stumbled over his words; was manipulated into a position he was not suited for and either unable or incapable of expressing clearly what Labours position was on just about anything but especially on Brexit.
		
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I can almost agree on all of that...the extremist bit being of course relative to where you are standing - but most certainly portrayed as extremist and therefore a reason to not like if you were so inclined but just needed a little push.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2020)

That the person most likely to have connected with 'ordinary' man is out of the running [for leader] shouts out the party remain wholly in denial...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2020)

Nandy really doing a really great job at pissing off the few remaining SLab members.
Saying that the leader of the Scottish Government should not be involved in UK wide discussions.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 4, 2020)

RLB looked absolutely out off depth tonight, Stamer not much better.


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## ger147 (Mar 5, 2020)

If the bookies are correct it's already over as a contest. Starmer is 1/14 with Long-Bailey at 16/1 and Nandy at 40/1.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 5, 2020)

Shame from the performace on AN, Nandys been the stand out.


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## patricks148 (Mar 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			RLB looked absolutely out off depth tonight, Stamer not much better.
		
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look on the bright side at least they did his show rather than hide in a fridge


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## chrisd (Mar 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Shame from the performace on AN, Nandys been the stand out.
		
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I didnt catch Starmer but RLB was awful. Let's hope she gets it and therefore no Lab government for ever! I agree that Nandy interviewed the best of what I saw but they've a hell of a job whoever gets it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			look on the bright side at least they did his show rather than hide in a fridge

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Might have been better off in the fridge


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## patricks148 (Mar 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Might have been better off in the fridge 

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very likely but at least they showed up which is more than you can say for Boris.

personally i'm not sure Labour has mach life in it any longer, people in the UK just don't care anymore


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			very likely but at least they showed up which is more than you can say for Boris.

personally i'm not sure Labour has mach life in it any longer, people in the UK just don't care anymore
		
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Maybe people care about things that labour don't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe people care about things that labour don't.
		
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I think the issue for Labour is more that some in Labour care about things that people don't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2020)

Wow....just watched the new SLAB political broadcast.
If my memory serves me there was not ONE mention of independence OR the SNP [bad] in it.
Bit late in the day for learning lessons Labour folks.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 5, 2020)

Keep an eye on us if you want to see what abandoning liberal ideology will do to your nation.
I hope you can all afford to pay for private medical insurance that will be two, three, four, or more times more expensive than paying for it with your taxes as you do now.
I hope everybody can afford private education because public-funded education will go down the drain.
I hope that you're good with oligarchs owning your government from top to bottom. (You might be better off returning supreme authority to the Queen. At least she's sane.)
Because if you don't want to become just like us, you're going to have to give Labour a closer look.


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## ger147 (Mar 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Keep an eye on us if you want to see what abandoning liberal ideology will do to your nation.
I hope you can all afford to pay for private medical insurance that will be two, three, four, or more times more expensive than paying for it with your taxes as you do now.
I hope everybody can afford private education because public-funded education will go down the drain.
I hope that you're good with oligarchs owning your government from top to bottom. (You might be better off returning supreme authority to the Queen. At least she's sane.)
Because if you don't want to become just like us, you're going to have to give Labour a closer look.
		
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Labour are not the only alternative to the Conservatives, particularly so if you live in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Keep an eye on us if you want to see what abandoning liberal ideology will do to your nation.
I hope you can all afford to pay for private medical insurance that will be two, three, four, or more times more expensive than paying for it with your taxes as you do now.
I hope everybody can afford private education because public-funded education will go down the drain.
I hope that you're good with oligarchs owning your government from top to bottom. (You might be better off returning supreme authority to the Queen. At least she's sane.)
*Because if you don't want to become just like us, you're going to have to give Labour a closer look.[*/QUOTE]

Sweet god, at the moment I wouldn’t look at them if I was blind. Anyone see the clip of Corbyn at the “Kebab” awards.
		
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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Keep an eye on us if you want to see what abandoning liberal ideology will do to your nation.
I hope you can all afford to pay for private medical insurance that will be two, three, four, or more times more expensive than paying for it with your taxes as you do now.
I hope everybody can afford private education because public-funded education will go down the drain.
I hope that you're good with oligarchs owning your government from top to bottom. (You might be better off returning supreme authority to the Queen. At least she's sane.)
Because if you don't want to become just like us, you're going to have to give Labour a closer look.
		
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We pay for all of those things, how do you think they get funded?  You dont appear to understand UK politics very well, best to let us decide what's best for us and you can sort out what's best for you.


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## drdel (Mar 5, 2020)

We need a good opposition but the Labour candidates - Oh dear, Oh dear Oh dear.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Labour are not the only alternative to the Conservatives, particularly so if you live in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
		
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The Monster raving looney party are an alternative to the Conservatives but if they cant get into UK government its irrelevant.


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## ger147 (Mar 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The Monster raving looney party are an alternative to the Conservatives but if they cant get into UK government its irrelevant.
		
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The various devolved governments have significant powers in some areas.  For example, Health was mentioned in the original post I replied to, that is a devolved matter in Scotland.


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2020)

Watched the leader's debate; RLB = Corbyn with a blond wig. She may well do better than a lot of people expect. We've seen what the party members want, and its a lot different to what should have been put in front of the voting public. Labour had their worst performance since forever, and she wants to rehash most of the policies and tell the public why they didn't understand them. If its the party members doing the choosing, who knows what she'll poll.

Nandy; spoke a lot of sense. Connected well, and appeared very honest. Does she carry the weight and gravitas to pull it off?

Starmer; another that spoke very well, and honestly - or appeared to be honest. But where was he when those things needed saying? He was in the Shadow Cabinet that put all those things together. I 'get' the collective responsibility thing but is he really genuine? Does he carry a little bit of the stain of the last leadership team?

Gut feel is Starmer will win it but that will be when the hard work really starts. I don't see the north of England being that hard to win back, especially if great things don't happen up north. And even if they do win back the north they still have to make inroads elsewhere to get a majority. Scotland? That's going to take an epic failure by the SNP for that to happen. In the south? That's going to take a biblical turnaround like the Tories have just achieved in the north, and I just can't see that happening.

A major Tory failure is all that Labour can hope for.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Watched the leader's debate; RLB = Corbyn with a blond wig. She may well do better than a lot of people expect. We've seen what the party members want, and its a lot different to what should have been put in front of the voting public. Labour had their worst performance since forever, and she wants to rehash most of the policies and tell the public why they didn't understand them. If its the party members doing the choosing, who knows what she'll poll.

Nandy; spoke a lot of sense. Connected well, and appeared very honest. Does she carry the weight and gravitas to pull it off?

Starmer; another that spoke very well, and honestly - or appeared to be honest. But where was he when those things needed saying? He was in the Shadow Cabinet that put all those things together. I 'get' the collective responsibility thing but is he really genuine? Does he carry a little bit of the stain of the last leadership team?

Gut feel is Starmer will win it but that will be when the hard work really starts. I don't see the north of England being that hard to win back, especially if great things don't happen up north. And even if they do win back the north they still have to make inroads elsewhere to get a majority. Scotland? That's going to take an epic failure by the SNP for that to happen. In the south? That's going to take a biblical turnaround like the Tories have just achieved in the north, and I just can't see that happening.

*A major Tory failure is all that Labour can hope for.[/*QUOTE]

I think this is what Labour under Corbyn had been waiting for since 2015. The Tories to screw up on Brexit ( and they nearly did) etc. The Labour policies just did not connect with Joe Public. Only time will tell if it’s the same song but a different singer.
		
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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We pay for all of those things, how do you think they get funded?  You dont appear to understand UK politics very well, best to let us decide what's best for us and you can sort out what's best for you.
		
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What an absurd comment.  Of course you pay for all of those things with your taxes.  I stated exactly that in my post.
And when you pay for something with taxes, all the money goes toward that for which you're paying without any being siphoned into profits for insurance companies and big pharma..

My post was a cautionary tale and not sorting out what's best for you.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			What an absurd comment.  Of course you pay for all of those things with your taxes.  I stated exactly that in my post.
And when you pay for something with taxes, all the money goes toward that for which you're paying without any being siphoned into profits for insurance companies and big pharma..

My post was a cautionary tale and not sorting out what's best for you.
.
		
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Only for fear you would shoot him.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only for fear you would shoot him.
		
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Background information:
I have never aimed any of my firearms at a living creature.

However.again just for background, and this was obviously many years ago,
I was the AAU (Amateur Athletic Union) Greater Boston Welterweight Champion, Novice Class,
and then,
the AAU New England Middleweight Champion, Open Class,
and with that,
have never once bullied anybody physically in my adolescent or adult life.

Unfortunately, if amateur golf were boxing,
I would have been on a respirator and fed intravenously until somebody mercifully pulled the plug.

What SocketRocket  would have to fear is engaging in a battle of wits as an unarmed man.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Background information:
I have never aimed any of my firearms at a living creature.

However.again just for background, and this was obviously many years ago,
I was the AAU (Amateur Athletic Union) Greater Boston Welterweight Champion, Novice Class,
and then,
the AAU New England Middleweight Champion, Open Class,
and with that,
have never once bullied anybody physically in my adolescent or adult life.

Unfortunately, if amateur golf were boxing,
I would have been on a respirator and fed intravenously until somebody mercifully pulled the plug.

What SocketRocket  would have to fear is engaging in a battle of wits as an unarmed man.
		
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Litterally nobody cares


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Litterally nobody cares
		
Click to expand...

Understood.  Yet you cared enough to answer the previous post, didn't you?
I think Socket Rocket has found an evenly matched opponent for his battle of wits.  Good job.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 6, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Litterally nobody cares
		
Click to expand...

But I do. I am interested in all forumers that bring something to the forum No matter what colour, race, gender, religion, left or right handed. What I see is a Yank, American, red neck what ever people on here want to call him who is typecast as the typical ignorant Yank that don’t know that Manchester is not part of London. Is it just coz he carries a gun that don’t sit right with some folk. So what. If people took time to read his posts he has put across his views very well. He has highlighted on how his country is going tits up under Trump, on how divided it is. He has not defended it to the hilt, he has been critical of his own country when he has seen fit. Yet nigh on every time he posts he gets personal abuse which has no relevance to any topic he comments on. Odd thing is he is a bona fida Bostonian and of all cities I have been to they are the friendliest by a country mile. Now if he was a New Yorker I could understand the abuse.
Keep talking and posting YOB Me duck.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			What an absurd comment.  Of course you pay for all of those things with your taxes.  I stated exactly that in my post.
And when you pay for something with taxes, all the money goes toward that for which you're paying without any being siphoned into profits for insurance companies and big pharma..

My post was a cautionary tale and not sorting out what's best for you.
You're just a belligerent prick who has more courage speaking on line than you would face to face.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunatley some in the Uk and even on here think the Free martket utopia you have in the states is a great model to follow, where the poor are kept poor and used as cheap labour., in poor housing with little access to medical and education, without having to get poorer still to pay for it, Where the rich get richer and pay lower and lower taxes


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## Tashyboy (Mar 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Unfortunatley some in the Uk and even on here think the Free martket utopia you have in the states is a great model to follow, where the poor are kept poor and used as cheap labour., in poor housing with little access to medical and education, without having to get poorer still to pay for it, Where the rich get richer and pay lower and lower taxes
		
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Don’t know if Ave mentioned Ave been in hospital today for half an hour. But the NHS really is the jewel in the crown of this country. Having travelled through the US of A last year, this country cannot afford to go down the America route of medical cobpver.


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## patricks148 (Mar 6, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Don’t know if Ave mentioned Ave been in hospital today for half an hour. But the NHS really is the jewel in the crown of this country. Having travelled through the US of A last year, this country cannot afford to go down the America route of medical cobpver.
		
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really, i didn't see you mention  it

well with another 5 years of the tory's keep and eye out for stealth privitisation


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## chrisd (Mar 6, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Don’t know if Ave mentioned Ave been in hospital today for half an hour. But the NHS really is the jewel in the crown of this country. Having travelled through the US of A last year, this country cannot afford to go down the America route of medical cobpver.
		
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Probably you're just behind Imurg about changing gokf courses and me and my hips  👍👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 6, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Probably you're just behind Imurg about changing gokf courses and me and my hips  👍👍
		
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Whats wrong with your hips Chris ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Background information:
I have never aimed any of my firearms at a living creature.

However.again just for background, and this was obviously many years ago,
I was the AAU (Amateur Athletic Union) Greater Boston Welterweight Champion, Novice Class,
and then,
the AAU New England Middleweight Champion, Open Class,
and with that,
have never once bullied anybody physically in my adolescent or adult life.

Unfortunately, if amateur golf were boxing,
I would have been on a respirator and fed intravenously until somebody mercifully pulled the plug.

What SocketRocket  would have to fear is engaging in a battle of wits as an unarmed man.
		
Click to expand...

My comments to you were due to you suggesting we need to give Labour a chance or we are set on a course similar to that of the USA regarding education and health services. I suggest that's not going to happen and you dont seem to have a very good handle on UK politics.  I also dont follow your comments on bullying or what your amateur athletics has to do with the subject. Regarding my ability to challenge your mental abilities, I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.


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## 2blue (Mar 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			What an absurd comment.  Of course you pay for all of those things with your taxes.  I stated exactly that in my post.
And when you pay for something with taxes, all the money goes toward that for which you're paying without any being siphoned into profits for insurance companies and big pharma..

My post was a cautionary tale and not sorting out what's best for you.
		
Click to expand...

Glad to see you're happy to see off our arrogant forum members as many of us enjoy your comments.
 We're with you &  'have his number' as such dib dibbers are so predictable. 🤣🤣


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## 2blue (Mar 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My comments to you were due to you suggesting we need to give Labour a chance or we are set on a course similar to that of the USA regarding education and health services. I suggest that's not going to happen and you dont seem to have a very good handle on UK politics.  I also dont follow your comments on bullying or what your amateur athletics has to do with the subject. Regarding my ability to challenge your mental abilities, I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.
		
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God.....  hes off on one again 🤪🤪


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2020)

The true value of a public owned 'national' Heath Service, with services free at the point of delivery, is being highlighted to the nth degree by the way that trusts and hospitals all across the country are able to work and coordinate together - sharing their best practice and planning for whatever load might land on the system in the coming weeks and months. A potential Labour Party campaign slogan - _The NHS - All for One and One for All._


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## Dando (Mar 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Whats wrong with your hips Chris ? 

Click to expand...

To much action as a youngster 🤢


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2020)

Dando said:



			To much action as a youngster 🤢
		
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Don't be ridiculous. Chris was never young. When he was born he was already one hundred and eleventy twelve.


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## Imurg (Mar 6, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Whats wrong with your hips Chris ? 

Click to expand...

He tried to out-Shakira Shakira......man, those hips dont lie..his kind of hang


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			He tried to out-Shakira Shakira......man, *those hips dont lie*..his kind of hang

Click to expand...

I think that's only true when the hips are your own. I'm pretty sure that artificial hips are perfectly capable of telling the occasional untruth.


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## chrisd (Mar 6, 2020)

My hips certainly can lie 👍


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2020)

2blue said:



			God.....  hes off on one again 🤪🤪
		
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Dibber 😂


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 7, 2020)

Let me sum up my thoughts about this thread.
I would never presume to lecture my friends in the United Kingdom, a place that treated me so well on my visits there.

Your approach to the funding of healthcare and education is both more modern AND more effective than ours.
My own nation has been severely damaged in recent years by a wave of reactionary thinking that's been encouraged by less than honorable means.
There are signs that the United Kingdom, a great nation and our figurative mother nation, is being threatened in the same way by the same methods.

Without presuming to tell you what to do, I merely wanted to offer our American experience as a factor you might consider in making your choices.
I fail to understand why some would see that as meddling unless those who do have a personal interest in promoting British reactionary politics.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Let me sum up my thoughts about this thread.
I would never presume to lecture my friends in the United Kingdom, a place that treated me so well on my visits there.

Your approach to the funding of healthcare and education is both more modern AND more effective than ours.
My own nation has been severely damaged in recent years by a wave of reactionary thinking that's been encouraged by less than honorable means.
There are signs that the United Kingdom, a great nation and our figurative mother nation, is being threatened in the same way by the same methods.

Without presuming to tell you what to do, I merely wanted to offer our American experience as a factor you might consider in making your choices.
I fail to understand why some would see that as meddling unless those who do have a personal interest in promoting British reactionary politics.
		
Click to expand...

YOB, your post sums up this forum nicely. You are told to keep your nose out of UK politics and business. However we are allowed to insult your country And yourself 👍. There’s a message in there 🤔😉


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Let me sum up my thoughts about this thread.
I would never presume to lecture my friends in the United Kingdom, a place that treated me so well on my visits there.

Your approach to the funding of healthcare and education is both more modern AND more effective than ours.
My own nation has been severely damaged in recent years by a wave of reactionary thinking that's been encouraged by less than honorable means.
There are signs that the United Kingdom, a great nation and our figurative mother nation, is being threatened in the same way by the same methods.

Without presuming to tell you what to do, I merely wanted to offer our American experience as a factor you might consider in making your choices.
I fail to understand why some would see that as meddling unless those who do have a personal interest in promoting British reactionary politics.
		
Click to expand...

My comment to you was regarding your comment that we would be better off under a labour government.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My comment to you was regarding your comment that we would be better off under a labour government.
		
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Err, not sure what planet you are currently orbiting, but a reasonable sized chunk of the population think we would be better off under a labour government.

That doesn’t make him or the millions of others, bad people.

Cut him a bit of slack, he is in a different country, is learning our ways and gives us his views on life over the pond


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Let me sum up my thoughts about this thread.
I would never presume to lecture my friends in the United Kingdom, a place that treated me so well on my visits there.

Your approach to the funding of healthcare and education is both more modern AND more effective than ours.
My own nation has been severely damaged in recent years by a wave of reactionary thinking that's been encouraged by less than honorable means.
There are signs that the United Kingdom, a great nation and our figurative mother nation, is being threatened in the same way by the same methods.

Without presuming to tell you what to do, I merely wanted to offer our American experience as a factor you might consider in making your choices.
I fail to understand why some would see that as meddling unless those who do have a personal interest in promoting British reactionary politics.
		
Click to expand...

You're not meddling, you're expressing an opinion. And an opinion from someone outside looking in, especially if they live under a different regime is more than welcome. Crack on Boomer.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err, not sure what planet you are currently orbiting, but a reasonable sized chunk of the population think we would be better off under a labour government.

That doesn’t make him or the millions of others, bad people.

Cut him a bit of slack, he is in a different country, is learning our ways and gives us his views on life over the pond
		
Click to expand...

Bugger off with that kind of sensible comment or you will end up being a mod.
Oops soz frag saw it was your comment a bit late. 😳👍😘


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err, not sure what planet you are currently orbiting, but a reasonable sized chunk of the population think we would be better off under a labour government.

*That doesn’t make him or the millions of others, bad people.*

Click to expand...

No but it does make them wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Err, not sure what planet you are currently orbiting, but a reasonable sized chunk of the population think we would be better off under a labour government.

That doesn’t make him or the millions of others, bad people.

Cut him a bit of slack, he is in a different country, is learning our ways and gives us his views on life over the pond
		
Click to expand...

I'm not orbiting a planet, just going around with the flow as we all are, I take it your comments are devoid of your mods hat so heres my response.  He suggested we should take a closer look at a Labour Government if we wish to save our NHS and state education, we just did that and decided otherwise.  He is of course entitled to his opinion just as I am entitled to disagree with it and I dont give him advice on what type of government I think he should be voting for as it's none of my business.  You may also have noticed that a rather sizeable chunk of people decided we would like to give a Conservative government a chance, that doesnt make them bad people either.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not orbiting a planet, just going around with the flow as we all are, I take it your comments are devoid of your mods hat so heres my response.  He suggested we should take a closer look at a Labour Government if we wish to save our NHS and state education, we just did that and decided otherwise.  He is of course entitled to his opinion just as I am entitled to disagree with it and I dont give him advice on what type of government I think he should be voting for as it's none of my business.  You may also have noticed that a rather sizeable chunk of people decided we would like to give a Conservative government a chance, that doesnt make them bad people either.
		
Click to expand...

Dons mod hat.

It’s absolutely fine to disagree with other people’s opinions and to discuss why. That’s what we do here

However, there is an art form called “agreeing to disagree and moving on”

I say this a lot, it is “Fragger’s Mantra”

It is something you are failing at badly.

You cannot attack and belittle someone because they have a different opinion to yours. That is trolling and bullying, 

Sort it please


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 4, 2020)

Keir Starmer voted in, Angela Rayner deputy


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## Ross61 (Apr 4, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Keir Starmer voted in, Angela Rayner deputy
		
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And today Boris invites opposition leaders to Coronavirus strategy meeting.... coincidence? I reckon not, Corbyn’s record on “working together” is appalling.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2020)

It makes labour more electable at the stroke of a pen. But who knows now we have a ‘socialist’ Tory govt


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## User62651 (Apr 4, 2020)

therod said:



			It makes labour more electable at the stroke of a pen. But who knows now we have a ‘socialist’ Tory govt
		
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Agreed, fresh start with a less divisive leader, we need an effective opposition. I'm confident Johnson would much prefer to face Corbyn across the despatch box than Starmer. There are a number of very capable MPs excluded by Corbyn that can hopefully form the shadow cabinet.
Once the Brexit heavy GE voting anomaly is over Labour should recover a lot of lost seats in time.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 4, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, fresh start with a less divisive leader, we need an effective opposition. I'm confident Johnson would much prefer to face Corbyn across the despatch box than Starmer. There are a number of very capable MPs excluded by Corbyn that can hopefully form the shadow cabinet.
Once the Brexit heavy GE voting anomaly is over Labour should recover a lot of lost seats in time.
		
Click to expand...

As much as I think we now have the most Labour Tory Governement ever, it is how the Government deal with the clusterfluk that will be post virus, and how they deal with the rebuilding that will be needed after that will determine strongly whether Boris gets another term.
Im just glad Long-Bailey wasn't made leader, that would have been immediate suicide.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, fresh start with a less divisive leader, we need an effective opposition. I'm confident Johnson would much prefer to face Corbyn across the despatch box than Starmer. There are a number of very capable MPs excluded by Corbyn that can hopefully form the shadow cabinet.
Once the Brexit heavy GE voting anomaly is over Labour should recover a lot of lost seats in time.
		
Click to expand...

I'm far from sure that it will make much difference. 

In the Labour heartlands of the Midlands and North Starmer may well be seen as just another member of the pro-EU Islington elite.


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## patricks148 (Apr 4, 2020)

not over the moon TBH, it will be a move away from socialism to Tory light, but i suppose that is better than Tory right


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not over the moon TBH, it will be a move away from socialism to Tory light, but i suppose that is better than Tory right

Click to expand...

Being an unpopular powerless Socialist is just a little bit pointless. Society doesn’t currently want Socialism. So the Party needs to reflect what the voters actually want and not just assume that we’re all a bit too stupid to know what we want.

This is a great result. Starmer is intelligent and respected. He’ll eat most of the Government front bench for breakfast. We finally have an Opposition that will pull voters away from the Tories.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not over the moon TBH, it will be a move away from socialism to Tory light, but i suppose that is better than Tory right

Click to expand...

Aside from the Gulf war and everything that went with it, that is how Blair was viewed by many. Having an ideology is fine, but it has to be practical in the modern world.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Being an unpopular powerless Socialist is just a little bit pointless. Society doesn’t currently want Socialism. So the Party needs to reflect what the voters actually want and not just assume that we’re all a bit too stupid to know what we want.

This is a great result. Starmer is intelligent and respected. He’ll eat most of the Government front bench for breakfast. We finally have an Opposition that will pull voters away from the Tories.
		
Click to expand...

I admire your optimism but many feel that, for a man with his previous career, he has been singularly uninspiring in the HoC.

Uncertain of his brief and displaying a clear lack of parliamentary experience. 

Lisa Nandy would IMO have been a better choice with a broader appeal to traditional Labour voters.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Wasn't my first choice but got convinced it was the 'sensible' vote at this time... 
Concerned as to whether he can 'connect' with those away from London...
Though there are plenty of 'traditional' Labour voters in London...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2020)

He tainted himself in my eyes with his wishy washy policy on Brexit.  I see him as a civil servant who is probably capable but lacking leadership. Hes got the job as the best of a bad bunch.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I admire your optimism but many feel that, for a man with his previous career, he has been singularly uninspiring in the HoC.

Uncertain of his brief and displaying a clear lack of parliamentary experience.

Lisa Nandy would IMO have been a better choice with a broader appeal to traditional Labour voters.
		
Click to expand...

I’d prefer to think that he was constrained by the leadership of the time and took a pragmatic approach. 

Nandy is my local MP and is very capable, but she’s also inexperienced. Draft her into the shadow cabinet and give her the experience. In 10 years she’ll be formidable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

All I want is him to support the Government at this difficult time, there is plenty of time to hold them to account and rebuild the Labour support once, as a Country, we are through this.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2020)

Classic Labour...... it took a 3 month very complicated voting system to vote in a leader who was  always going to win by a country mile.
System somehow reminded me of the USSR.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’d prefer to think that he was constrained by the leadership of the time and took a pragmatic approach.

Nandy is my local MP and is very capable, but she’s also inexperienced. Draft her into the shadow cabinet and give her the experience. In 10 years she’ll be formidable.
		
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But Starmer is also inexperienced only having been in Parliament for 5 years whereas Nandy has been an MP twice as long.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He tainted himself in my eyes with his wishy washy policy on Brexit.  I see him as a civil servant who is probably capable but lacking leadership. Hes got the job as the best of a bad bunch.
		
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Don't you think it's time to let that dog lie?
Or are we going to keep judging every politician from now till kingdom come on which way they argued/voted in THAT referendum?


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But Starmer is also inexperienced only having been in Parliament for 5 years whereas Nandy has been an MP twice as long.
		
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Good points, but Starmer has lengthy experience in senior roles such as The DPP and head of the CPS. He currently carries more “weight” than Lisa. 

FWIW, I’ve met Lisa several times as she’s my local MP and she’s always impressed me. She works very hard and is fearsome under pressure. I have a lot more confidence in a Labour Party that puts Starmer, Nandy and Phillips at the top table. The only question for me is what does Starmer do with Long Bailey? Will he take on Momentum or will he try to placate them?


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2020)

therod said:



			It makes labour more electable at the stroke of a pen. But who knows now we have a ‘socialist’ Tory govt
		
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While Momentum and Raynor are around the good sir will be fighting with his hands tied behind his back.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			While Momentum and Raynor are around the good sir will be fighting with his hands tied behind his back.
		
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That’s my fear. However, the first step is to fill the leadership positions with centre left politicians. The 2nd is to remove the influence of Momentum. 

I can actually feel the mindset changing at the moment. It won’t be quick, but it doesn’t have to be. For the next few years I want the Labour Party to spend more time supporting the Government and trying to pull the Tories back from the brink of outright socialism (😂). Hold them to account when they’re wrong. Support them when they’re right. The next election has to be their focus, but only when the current crisis is “over”.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2020)

Unfortunately Momentum control the Labour Party the everyday voter isn't a party member and have no time for Momentum. The only people who haven't realised that are the likes of LB Raynor and Momentum members.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Don't you think it's time to let that dog lie?
Or are we going to keep judging every politician from now till kingdom come on which way they argued/voted in THAT referendum?
		
Click to expand...

That's not the point. We can only judge people on their past performance and that's what I'm doing with him.  It matters not whether the task was Brexit but how he performed and in this respect imo he seemed lacking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not the point. We can only judge people on their past performance and that's what I'm doing with him.  It matters not whether the task was Brexit but how he performed and in this respect imo he seemed lacking.
		
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😂😂 How many times were we told to ignore boris’s past, give him a chance and judge him as pm. 😂😂 Comedy Gold.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not the point. We can only judge people on their past performance and that's what I'm doing with him.  It matters not whether the task was Brexit but how he performed and in this respect imo he seemed lacking.
		
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He is  a very inexperienced politician, note I say politician, he jumped on a horse that he thought would win and for whatever reason it was the wrong horse. It will be something that will come back and bite him occasionally but like ALL politicians his memory will be short and life will go on.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			😂😂 How many times were we told to ignore boris’s past, give him a chance and judge him as pm. 😂😂 Comedy Gold.
		
Click to expand...

Please stop diverting the issue for point scoring opportunities.  We are not discussing Boris and you are making rather silly remarks. I'm sure you are quite able to make your point without needing to use such remarks.

I hope Starmer does turn out to be a good leader, I can only give my opinion on how I feel about him to date.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not the point. We can only judge people on their past performance and that's what I'm doing with him.  It matters not whether the task was Brexit but how he performed and in this respect imo he seemed lacking.
		
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To be fair Brian. I’m fairly certain that you’re not his target demographic. He doesn’t have to win you over. 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Please stop diverting the issue for point scoring opportunities.  We are not discussing Boris and you are making rather silly remarks. I'm sure you are quite able to make your point without needing to use such remarks.

I hope Starmer does turn out to be a good leader, I can only give my opinion on how I feel about him to date.
		
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Diverting nothing! Time and time again boris’s lies and past were used as stick and time and time again people were told it wasn’t about the past and we should get behind him and give him our support etc. incl when people were reminded about boris’s stance and voting history on brexit!

Move on, Brexit is over, we won.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair Brian. I’m fairly certain that you’re not his target demographic. He doesn’t have to win you over. 😉
		
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That's not necessarily the case, it may come as a shock but I have voted Labour a number of times and did so with Blair.  I would still be prepared to vote Labour if they could put up a prospective government that was closer to centre and with better prospective ministers than currently available.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Wasn't my first choice but got convinced it was the 'sensible' vote at this time...
*Concerned as to whether he can 'connect' with those away from London...*
Though there are plenty of 'traditional' Labour voters in London...
		
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It seems from the last election that a bunch of mostly privately educated poshos managed to connect enough to get a big majority. So you'd hope he has a chance.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Diverting nothing! Time and time again boris’s lies and past were used as stick and time and time again people were told it wasn’t about the past and we should get behind him and give him our support etc. incl when people were reminded about boris’s stance and voting history on brexit!

Move on, Brexit is over, we won.
		
Click to expand...

Again!! It's nothing to do with Brexit as a subject but a way to measure the man's previous performance, I can't think of anything he did before.

Look, you don't seem able to make a reasoned discussion without throwing your political prejudiced toys out the pram so I won't be responding to you again on this thread.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It seems from the last election that a bunch of mostly privately educated poshos managed to connect enough to get a big majority. So you'd hope he has a chance.
		
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But those poshos connected with the electorate in those constituencies by addressing what, to the voters, was their key issue.

Lisa Nandy, for one, acknowledged this.

I'm not certain that Starmer appreciates it to the same extent and, in the eyes of many, is seen as anti-Brexit.

This perception of him could prove costly to the Labour Party.

FWIW I don't think that this should still be an issue but the scars of Brexit run deep and how some of the voters felt they were viewed by the Islington set has not been forgotten.


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## 2blue (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



*All I want is him to support the Government at this difficult time,* there is plenty of time to hold them to account and rebuild the Labour support once, as a Country, we are through this.
		
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Yes indeed..... I hear that in the next few days BJ is getting together with other Party leaders. It must be more than a month ago I suggested this collaborative approach & was shouted down on here. 
However when BJ eventually got Sadiq on board he then ignored him & dangerously, continued to encourage building workers to attend non-essential work in London...  a very foolish move at any time & particularly so when the Tubes were reduced.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Again!! It's nothing to do with Brexit as a subject but a way to measure the man's previous performance, I can't think of anything he did before.

Look, you don't seem able to make a reasoned discussion without throwing your *political prejudiced toys out the pram* so I won't be responding to you again on this thread.
		
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Good, you just crack liking my posts about Starmer supporting the Government.
Remember, were all in this together and we need to heal.

Bold bit😂😂😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yes indeed..... I hear that in the next few days BJ is getting together with other Party leaders. It must be more than a month ago I suggested this collaborative approach & was shouted down on here.
However when BJ eventually got Sadiq on board he then ignored him & dangerously, continued to encourage building workers to attend non-essential work in London...  a very foolish move at any time & particularly so when the Tubes were reduced.
		
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It’s only a good idea if a tory proposes it! Come on, keep up.


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## 2blue (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Good points, but Starmer has lengthy experience in senior roles such as The DPP and head of the CPS. He currently carries more “weight” than Lisa.

FWIW, I’ve met Lisa several times as she’s my local MP and she’s always impressed me. She works very hard *and is fearsome under pressure.* I have a lot more confidence in a Labour Party that puts Starmer, Nandy and Phillips at the top table. The only question for me is what does Starmer do with Long Bailey? Will he take on Momentum or will he try to placate them?
		
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Yes, in deed, anyone who puts Andrew Neil in his place in a 1 to 1 interview is to be admired. I really do hope she gets a place in the Cabinet. Your lucky to have such a strong local MP.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 4, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yes, in deed, anyone who puts Andrew Neil in his place in a 1 to 1 interview is to be admired. I really do hope she gets a place in the Cabinet. Your lucky to have such a strong local MP.
		
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Nandy would have been my choice.
Expierience seems irrelevant nowadays as seen by the large maount of younger MP's compared to years ago.
Someone who can listen to the electorate and act  for the betterment of the country and not their own personal or party gain is what we need.
As we see though on these forums, prejudice and personal dogma will always take the lead regardless of the effect that has.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It seems from the last election that a bunch of mostly privately educated poshos managed to connect enough to get a big majority. So you'd hope he has a chance.
		
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Strongly suspect the main 'issues' for the next election will be vastly different to the last... Making the views of "privately educated poshos" so last election...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Strongly suspect the main 'issues' for the next election will be vastly different to the last... Making the views of "privately educated poshos" so last election...
		
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You do realise that Starmer was educated at a fee-paying school.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You do realise that Starmer was educated at a fee-paying school.
		
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Rather sadly they all seem to be...


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You do realise that Starmer was educated at a fee-paying school.
		
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As did Corbyn


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## patricks148 (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Being an unpopular powerless Socialist is just a little bit pointless. Society doesn’t currently want Socialism. So the Party needs to reflect what the voters actually want and not just assume that we’re all a bit too stupid to know what we want.

This is a great result. Starmer is intelligent and respected. He’ll eat most of the Government front bench for breakfast. We finally have an Opposition that will pull voters away from the Tories.
		
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its my opinion, i don't think its a good move back to middle ground, the UK needs big change, middle ground isn't going to do it IMO. once the floaters realise the Torys are not the answer and the red wall gets F over once this is all over great they vote middle ground Labour again who won't make tha changes the UK needs.

I'm sad to say i think labour has had its day,  the Uk now on the whole just cares about themselves, the "I'm all right jack mentality has taken over. I don't think Scotland would be labour again, even though it still has left wing leanings.. you are prob right, but it doesn't mean i have to like it


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			its my opinion, i don't think its a good move back to middle ground, the UK needs big change, middle ground isn't going to do it IMO. once the floaters realise the Torys are not the answer and the red wall gets F over once this is all over great they vote middle ground Labour again who won't make tha changes the UK needs.

I'm sad to say i think labour has had its day,  the Uk now on the whole just cares about themselves, the "I'm all right jack mentality has taken over. I don't think Scotland would be labour again, even though it still has left wing leanings.. you are prob right, but it doesn't mean i have to like it
		
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I've long felt Labour needed to take a bigger step to the left... Currently that's an opinion in the minority with the electorate... Listening is important now and work towards compromises keeping Labour 'values' in mind whilst making those compromises... Hearing "Labour has had its day" is nothing new but I still believe it'll be around for a while yet...


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## spongebob59 (Apr 6, 2020)

Lammy in the cabinet 

And the return of Milliband


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Again!! It's nothing to do with Brexit as a subject but a way to measure the man's previous performance, I can't think of anything he did before.

Look, you don't seem able to make a reasoned discussion without throwing your political prejudiced toys out the pram so I won't be responding to you again on this thread.
		
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And if we were to take the briefest look at Johnson's performance as Foreign Secretary - well - but let's put that aside as he was the best (most Brexity) between himself and Hunt and so the one to move forward with.  Looking forward - Johnson was the right decision _then _for the Tories - likewise looking forward Starmer is the right decision _today_ for the Labour Party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Lammy in the cabinet 

And the return of Milliband 

Click to expand...

Not a great fan of Lammy - but he compares reasonably well against more than a couple who are sat on the government front bench.

Ed Miliband is fine.  Plenty of experience.  And as Shadow Business Secretary he will be up against - erm - Alok Sharma.  Well - given recent performances in front of the nation by the latter I think I might guess who is likely to come on top in debates.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 6, 2020)

Pro EU cabinet, wonder what they;ll be campaigning for ??


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not a great fan of Lammy - but he compares reasonably well against more than a couple who are sat on the government front bench.

Ed Miliband is fine.  Plenty of experience.  And as Shadow Business Secretary he will be up against - erm - Alok Sharma.  Well - given recent performances in front of the nation by the latter I think I might guess who is likely to come on top in debates.
		
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You clearly don't remember Milliband's past performances.

Remember this is Ed we're talking about not David.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2020)

With all due respect... We are up to our necks in sh1te and we've got time to be concerned about who's in the shadow cabinet and the Bword? 😕...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You clearly don't remember Milliband's past performances.

Remember this is Ed we're talking about not David.
		
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I am comparing him with Alok Sharma

it is important that the opposition are considered competent and at least have the ear of the public - and that they ask the difficult questions of the government around decisions and plans relating to the current crisis.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am comparing him with Alok Sharma
		
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I absolutely agree that Sharma has performed very poorly but Ed Miliband has been nothing but poor throughout his frontbench career. 

And as party leader he was completely useless.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I absolutely agree that Sharma has performed very poorly but Ed Miliband has been nothing but poor throughout his frontbench career.

And as party leader he was completely useless.
		
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His podcasts with Geoff Lloyd are great though.


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## Dando (Apr 6, 2020)

I hope Lammy has renewed his race card!

Just saw an interview where he said he was told the Grenfell deaths were higher than stated by the police and so therefore the police numbers were wrong but he had no concrete evidence 😂🤣😂🤣


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## full_throttle (Apr 6, 2020)

How true is this statement?

"In 2009, the paedophile Jimmy Savile was interviewed under caution by police in Surrey and Sussex. Subsequently, the police referred 4 cases to the CPS alleging that Jimmy Savile had abused 3 girls under the age of 16.
The CPS, after receiving the files from the police, refused to prosecute Savile and dropped the case claiming ‘insufficient evidence’’.
After Savile’s death, and despite multiple attempts of high level cover ups, we now know that he abused up to 500 victims over a four-decade period.
Why am I sharing this with you?
The man in charge of the CPS at the time, that decided there was 'insufficient evidence' to charge Savile, is the now Leader of the Labour Party Sir Kier Starmer."


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## Imurg (Apr 6, 2020)

full_throttle said:



			How true is this statement?

"In 2009, the paedophile Jimmy Savile was interviewed under caution by police in Surrey and Sussex. Subsequently, the police referred 4 cases to the CPS alleging that Jimmy Savile had abused 3 girls under the age of 16.
The CPS, after receiving the files from the police, refused to prosecute Savile and dropped the case claiming ‘insufficient evidence’’.
After Savile’s death, and despite multiple attempts of high level cover ups, we now know that he abused up to 500 victims over a four-decade period.
Why am I sharing this with you?
The man in charge of the CPS at the time, that decided there was 'insufficient evidence' to charge Savile, is the now Leader of the Labour Party Sir Kier Starmer."
		
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While nothing there is factually incorrect, without being privy to what actual evidence there was at the time I think it's a bit harsh to lay it on Starmer 
There may not have been enough evidence to make a conviction likely...as we've seen since, it doesn't mean he didn't do it, just that, at the time, they couldn't prove it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2020)

full_throttle said:



			How true is this statement?

"In 2009, the paedophile Jimmy Savile was interviewed under caution by police in Surrey and Sussex. Subsequently, the police referred 4 cases to the CPS alleging that Jimmy Savile had abused 3 girls under the age of 16.
The CPS, after receiving the files from the police, refused to prosecute Savile and dropped the case claiming ‘insufficient evidence’’.
After Savile’s death, and despite multiple attempts of high level cover ups, we now know that he abused up to 500 victims over a four-decade period.
Why am I sharing this with you?
The man in charge of the CPS at the time, that decided there was 'insufficient evidence' to charge Savile, is the now Leader of the Labour Party Sir Kier Starmer."
		
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Wow, just wow, I guess it wasn’t important before Saturday.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2020)

There's a few in his Cabinet that definitely aren't my favourites. However, they represent a section of the party and will bring a diversity and balance of what the Labour Party is, hopefully. They have, by their own admission a huge job of work in front of them. Whether they get my vote in the future, we'll see but I do hope they become competent enough to be considered. More importantly I hope, even with such a deficit, that they keep the govt honest and on their toes. 

Perhaps naively I'm hoping for some good honest politicking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There's a few in his Cabinet that definitely aren't my favourites. However, they represent a section of the party and will bring a diversity and balance of what the Labour Party is, hopefully. They have, by their own admission a huge job of work in front of them. Whether they get my vote in the future, we'll see but I do hope they become competent enough to be considered. More importantly I hope, even with such a deficit, that they keep the govt honest and on their toes.

Perhaps naively I'm hoping for some good honest politicking.
		
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Totally agree and that’s all any of us can hope for.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Lammy in the cabinet 

And the return of Milliband 

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Lammy, what a plonker!


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## Fade and Die (Apr 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			I hope Lammy has renewed his race card!

Just saw an interview where he said he was told the Grenfell deaths were higher than stated by the police and so therefore the police numbers were wrong but he had no concrete evidence 😂🤣😂🤣
		
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...j7T-K65xgjme9vQhZP0PUCaXEL-_gI6-_w1tatuoQKMBQ


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## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2020)

I don’t like politicians they all seem to lose the ability to speak the truth or not actually answer the questions asked directly.
Must be in their DNA


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 7, 2020)

I’m sure I read on this forum when the Covid-19 broke that we should put politics to one side and come together to fight this virus.

Strange how the majority managed it until Labour elected a new leader and the same old right wing characters appeared to start dissing him and some of his shadow cabinet.

Maybe the rules only go one way?


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m sure I read on this forum when the Covid-19 broke that we should put politics to one side and come together to fight this virus.

Strange how the majority managed it until Labour elected a new leader and the same old right wing characters appeared to start dissing him and some of his shadow cabinet.

Maybe the rules only go one way?

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WHAT, Paul......  are we still not 'All in this together?'


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2020)

full_throttle said:



			How true is this statement?

"In 2009, the paedophile Jimmy Savile was interviewed under caution by police in Surrey and Sussex. Subsequently, the police referred 4 cases to the CPS alleging that Jimmy Savile had abused 3 girls under the age of 16.
The CPS, after receiving the files from the police, refused to prosecute Savile and dropped the case claiming ‘insufficient evidence’’.
After Savile’s death, and despite multiple attempts of high level cover ups, we now know that he abused up to 500 victims over a four-decade period.
Why am I sharing this with you?
The man in charge of the CPS at the time, that decided there was 'insufficient evidence' to charge Savile, *is the now Leader of the Labour Party Sir Kier Starmer*."
		
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Also Saville was very friendly with Thatcher and used that friendship to portray an image of respectability which he would not have had otherwise. So should we be dropping equally vague nutjob conspiracy theory hints that Thatcher was covering up for him as well?

If you use your statement as a reason not to vote Labour then chances are you are kind of a bit myopic in your voting intentions anyway. But thanks for the heads up, it's reminded me to vote on policies and ideology at the next election and not some vague accusations copied from social media in an attempt to convince the simple minded.


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also Saville was very friendly with Thatcher and used that friendship to portray an image of respectability which he would not have had otherwise. So should we be dropping equally vague nutjob conspiracy theory hints that Thatcher was covering up for him as well?

If you use your statement as a reason not to vote Labour then chances are you are kind of a bit myopic in your voting intentions anyway. But thanks for the heads up, it's reminded me to vote on but on policies and ideology at the next election and not some vague accusations copied from social media in an attempt to convince the simple minded, *blinkered, far right extremists.*

Click to expand...

Thought I'd best sort that for you as, 'We're all in this together!!'


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You clearly don't remember Milliband's past performances.

Remember this is Ed we're talking about not David.
		
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There's a vast difference between being a (Shadow) Cabinet Minister and being (Shadow) Leader of the Party! Same applies to the attributes required to properly fulfil the role. There are some (DM likely one imo) who have the attributes for both, but others are 'specialists'. Same reasoning applies why it should not be automatic to promote the best technical/worker to be team leader!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			There's a vast difference between being a (Shadow) Cabinet Minister and being (Shadow) Leader of the Party! Same applies to the attributes required to properly fulfil the role. There are some (DM likely one imo) who have the attributes for both, but others are 'specialists'. Same reasoning applies why it should not be automatic to promote the best technical/worker to be team leader!
		
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And pray what talents other than self-promotion has Ed Miliband ever displayed .


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With all due respect... We are up to our necks in sh1te and we've got time to be concerned about who's in the shadow cabinet and the Bword? 😕...
		
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No denying we're up to our neck in it
But you can't let it consume you, you need other outlet's to keep you occupied and your spirits up.
Not saying politics is best way though 😂😂
I for one who has been labour all my life is glad to see the back of Corbyn.


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And pray what talents other than self-promotion has *BoJo *ever displayed .
		
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Sorted


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			Sorted 

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You have a standard default of attempting to reverse any comment critical of  any Labour politician or policy with this sort of stupidity. 

I am not a Tory supporter but someone who is in the  centre with leanings to the Left on some issues and to the Right on one or two others. 

As such  the Shadow Cabinet appointments are of importance to me as I retain an open mind with regard to future voting intentions 

Pathetic responses such as yours add absolutely nothing to the debate.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And pray what talents other than self-promotion has Ed Miliband ever displayed .
		
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For a politician, that (and the ability to avoid cock-ups) is the only visible 'talent' required - though I don't believe he 'over self-promoted'! Of course, there's an enormous amount of constituency work, invisible to the general public, that he may/may noit have been good/bad at.

His main 'talent' seems, to me, to have been that he was more acceptable, at the time, as Leader of The Labour Party, to the Unions than the alternatives. And it was, imo, that/those major bloc vote/s that made the difference over David. Neil Kinnock's enthusiastic response to his election seems/seemed to me to be a negative rather than a positive one! A major achievement, imo, was that he subsequently changed the structure of Labour Party voting structure, reducing (supposedly) the excessive influence of Unions over the result - a brave, but necessary move! 

And FWIW, do you think he made a better leader than Corbyn has been? We'll never know how his brother would have performed, but I certainly believe the wrong choice was made.


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			You have a standard default of attempting to reverse any comment critical of  any Labour politician or policy with this sort of stupidity.

I am not a Tory supporter but someone who is in the  centre with leanings to the Left on some issues and to the Right on one or two others.

As such  the Shadow Cabinet appointments are of importance to me as I retain an open mind with regard to future voting intentions

Pathetic responses such as yours add absolutely nothing to the debate.
		
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This thread is about LEADERS......  your pathetic trouble mongering is adding nothing to it....  especially in these difficult times....  so just jog-off please.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			Thought I'd best sort that for you as, 'We're all in this together!!' 

Click to expand...

Sad, very sad 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			This thread is about LEADERS......  your pathetic trouble mongering is adding nothing to it....  especially in these difficult times....  so just jog-off please. 

Click to expand...

The irony meter just exploded 🙄


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			This thread is about LEADERS......  your pathetic trouble mongering is adding nothing to it....  especially in these difficult times....  so just jog-off please. 

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Chill man!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			This thread is about LEADERS......  your pathetic trouble mongering is adding nothing to it....  especially in these difficult times....  so just jog-off please. 

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Grow up you sad little man.

The frontbench team seected says much about any party leader but that may be a little difficult for you to understand.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:





MetalMickie said:



			And pray what talents other than self-promotion has *BoJo* ever displayed .
		
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Sorted 

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That thought certainly crossed my mind! Though I'd likely have used less escalating language (and not subsequently escalated it even further!)


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Grow up you sad little man.

The frontbench team seected says much about any party leader but that may be a little difficult for you to understand.
		
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Just stop your sad name calling & do as the man said...  Chill.....  these are difficult times.


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## 2blue (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:
MetalMickie said:
And pray what talents other than self-promotion has *BoJo* ever displayed .
Sorted 



Foxholer said:



			That thought certainly crossed my mind! Though I'd likely have used less escalating language (and not subsequently escalated it even further!)
		
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Sorry.....  but I've never backed-off when something needs to be said....  upsetting as it maybe for some.  All I did was insert a different name.... is that escalation??


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



			Just stop your sad name calling & do as the man said...  Chill.....  these are difficult times. 

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Says the man who refers to debate and discussion as trouble mongering.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

2blue said:



*All I did was insert a different name*.... is that escalation??
		
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No you didn't! 

It was the subsequent text that I was refering to!


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 7, 2020)

Stop the bickering please
Infractions handed out


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