# BREAKING NEWS: Rugby World Cup referee......



## TopOfTheFlop (Oct 19, 2015)

was wrong to award the penalty

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34576756

More to follow.... 

Replay the match????!!!


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## Imurg (Oct 19, 2015)

Nope.
Game over, result posted.
It would set an extremely dangerous precedent.


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## Duckster (Oct 19, 2015)

Ahh shame.

Still, the game's over lets all just crack on.


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## upsidedown (Oct 19, 2015)

Nope as gutted as I am the result stands


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Nope. I'm still gutted, even more so now, but the result stands. 

Guy should be ashamed about the way he left the field though........guilty conscience?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

It's a really big shame the RFU have thrown him under a bus like this 

First of all the desicion to award the penalty was a tight one - a number of refs have said it happened so quick that they can see why he gave it - some would have given a scrum some a penalty - no one knew it was wrong until the replay. TMO couldn't and shouldn't be used for technical penalties like knock ons - so for the RFU to come out and say this is bad form and could set a precedent that ruins Rugby 

For years the best thing about Rugby was the respect the refs had - even when they made a wrong decision - over the years wrong decisions have cost teams grand slams and even lions tests but once the whistle went the players respected it and it was down 

But now that has started to stop and especially the reaction from ex rugby players calling the ref a disgrace and demands for the ref to be sacked for life and social media going over board - that to me isn't rugby - that's moving towards football and that's the last thing anyone wants to see 

Yes there were some decisions that could have gone Scotland's way and could have had a bearing on the result but Rugby always prided itself in keeping it respectful and on the pitch - that all changed yesterday - I hope it was just a one off and not the start of things to come


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Nope.
Game over, result posted.
It would set an extremely dangerous precedent.
		
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Yip, game is done regardless so no replay for me.

Still gutted


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## Khamelion (Oct 19, 2015)

Although the penalty may now be being ruled incorrect, Scotland took defeat from the jaws of victory with the poor line out throw in and the subsequent mess they made of it. It's easy to write in hindsight, but all they had to do was keep the ball for 90 seconds, clear the line, boot it up field and get it away from their own goal line and out of drop goal range. 

Its tough to lose the way they did, as they played brilliantly for 78 and a bit mins, but a lapse of concentration denied them the victory they should have had, but now with World Rugby saying the ref made a mistake, that's just rubbing salt, iodine and soap into the wound.


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

I think they're calling the ref a disgrace for the way he left the field of play.....and rightly so. 
I too am a big fan of the way they respect the referee, but respect is a two way street......and he showed none to the 30 men on that field of play when he sprinted off the way he did. 

For that, he deserves the comments coming his way.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I think they're calling the ref a disgrace for the way he left the field of play.....and rightly so. 
I too am a big fan of the way they respect the referee, but respect is a two way street......and he showed none to the 30 men on that field of play when he sprinted off the way he did. 

For that, he deserves the comments coming his way.
		
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The RFU said there was nothing to comment on in regards the ref leaving the field 

It's happened before with Steve Walsh 

But if the comments start coming towards the ref of suggestions of him being made sure he never refs again etc - then it's no better than football


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## Imurg (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's a really big shame the RFU have thrown him under a bus like this 

First of all the desicion to award the penalty was a tight one - a number of refs have said it happened so quick that they can see why he gave it - some would have given a scrum some a penalty - no one knew it was wrong until the replay. TMO couldn't and shouldn't be used for technical penalties like knock ons - so for the RFU to come out and say this is bad form and could set a precedent that ruins Rugby 

For years the best thing about Rugby was the respect the refs had - even when they made a wrong decision - over the years wrong decisions have cost teams grand slams and even lions tests but once the whistle went the players respected it and it was down 

But now that has started to stop and especially the reaction from ex rugby players calling the ref a disgrace and demands for the ref to be sacked for life and social media going over board - that to me isn't rugby - that's moving towards football and that's the last thing anyone wants to see 

Yes there were some decisions that could have gone Scotland's way and could have had a bearing on the result but Rugby always prided itself in keeping it respectful and on the pitch - that all changed yesterday - I hope it was just a one off and not the start of things to come
		
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Absolutely.
Anyone would think it's the first sports fixture to be decided by a refereeing mistake....

Happens half a dozen times every weekend in football.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely.
Anyone would think it's the first sports fixture to be decided by a refereeing mistake....

Happens half a dozen times every weekend in football.
		
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Can still clearly remember the blatent Campese deliberate knock on in the 91 final - ref missed it


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## upsidedown (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The RFU said there was nothing to comment on in regards the ref leaving the field 

It's happened before with Steve Walsh 

But if the comments start coming towards the ref of suggestions of him being made sure he never refs again etc - then it's no better than football
		
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Just for clarity it's not the RFU that have made the statement but World Rugby http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/115761


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The RFU said there was nothing to comment on in regards the ref leaving the field 

It's happened before with Steve Walsh 

But if the comments start coming towards the ref of suggestions of him being made sure he never refs again etc - then it's no better than football
		
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Oh, he shouldn't be barred from officiating in future, of course he shouldn't. 

But regardless of what the RFU say, leaving the field the way he did was for me (and others I'd think) a disgrace. He showed (imo) a complete lack of respect to all 30 players on that field. 


It would be (again imo) a great pity if folks started questioning the refs ability to officiate........


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## TopOfTheFlop (Oct 19, 2015)

Of course they wouldn't replay the game.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing though doesn't it


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Oh, he shouldn't be barred from officiating in future, of course he shouldn't. 

But regardless of what the RFU say, leaving the field the way he did was for me (and others I'd think) a disgrace. He showed (imo) a complete lack of respect to all 30 players on that field. 


It would be (again into) a great pity if folks started questioning the refs ability to officiate........
		
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But that's exactly what is happening right now - the reaction to the awarding that penalty is demanding that he doesn't officiate again


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But that's exactly what is happening right now - the reaction to the awarding that penalty is demanding that he doesn't officiate again
		
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Yeah, but I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying he deserves comment on the way he left the field.


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## Tongo (Oct 19, 2015)

Manna from heaven for much of the sporting media. Lets face it, all they're interested in these days is controversy, confrontation and conflict.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Yeah, but I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying he deserves comment on the way he left the field. 

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How he left the field could be for a number of reasons and no one knows that 

But the comments all over social media and the comment from the World Rugby is in regards the penalty call - even being called a cheat


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## pokerjoke (Oct 19, 2015)

Don't blame the ref blame the man that couldn't throw the ball to a team mate at the lineout.

I don't know the percentage but most teams have a very high percentage of completions at the lineout.


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely.
Anyone would think it's the first sports fixture to be decided by a refereeing mistake....

Happens half a dozen times every weekend in football.
		
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Not the first one decided by him though, he's incompetent. I wouldn't call for him to never referee again but he certainly shouldn't referee at the top level, i'd like to think after this howler his RWC is as far behind him as Scotlands is.


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How he left the field could be for a number of reasons and no one knows that 

But the comments all over social media and the comment from the World Rugby is in regards the penalty call - even being called a cheat
		
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Phil.  He should have shown the players the respect that he would expect from them and stay on the field and shake hands with them.

It was disrespectful imo and deserving of negative comment. 

No doubt we could debate that he desperately needed the khazi or that he feared for his safety or he left the iron on or he has a phobia about shaking hands or he wanted to beat the traffic, but I won't.  It was disrespectful imo, and for me that's all there is to it. :thup:


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			Don't blame the ref blame the man that couldn't throw the ball to a team mate at the lineout.

I don't know the percentage but most teams have a very high percentage of completions at the lineout.
		
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Ive said it before Tony, the line out farce is not the issue, the issue is the ref got the call wrong which changed the course of the game. 

I agree Scotland  should have got the line out right and we wouldn't be talking this way but you still expect a ref to get his game right.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 19, 2015)

Sure what could he do ? he has no interest in whoever wins , he called it as he saw it a full speed at eye level . he couldn't go to TMO ,maybe an option of consulting the  linesman on what he saw &  was it pen or scrum it could have bought him some thinking time ,     wrong call BUT genuine mistake .. 

Running off the field was a  very poor thing to do & disrespectful in my opinion  , players show officials respect so it should be the other way around..

Genuinely gutted for them tho.. but sloppy play contributed to the problem .. 

Control the line out & ................... sound familiar ??

Big thing for me ,  Shoulda been a Pen for late challenge & then the line out would have been much further down the pitch


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

Absolutely brilliant that the Rugby authorities have been open and honest enough to put this statement out. Fantastic - football associations could learn a lot from it rather than defending the indefensible with some of the dodgy refereeing decisions out there.

Nobody is arguing the result shouldn't stand but this is a brilliant and mature contribution to the debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Phil.  He should have shown the players the respect that he would expect from them and stay on the field and shake hands with them.

It was disrespectful imo and deserving of negative comment. 

No doubt we could debate that he desperately needed the khazi or that he feared for his safety or he left the iron on or he has a phobia about shaking hands or he wanted to beat the traffic, but I won't.  It was disrespectful imo, and for me that's all there is to it. :thup: 



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And that's been discussed elsewhere in the other thread 

This is about the desicion to award the penalty which his governing body have thrown him under the bus for. 

What he did after is irrelevant in the subject 

It certainly is a discussion point elsewhere but will certainly need to hear why he left the field before he is hung out to dry 

Even then it's not rugby to have open season on him


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Absolutely brilliant that the Rugby authorities have been open and honest enough to put this statement out. Fantastic - football associations could learn a lot from it rather than defending the indefensible with some of the dodgy refereeing decisions out there.

Nobody is arguing the result shouldn't stand but this is a brilliant and mature contribution to the debate.
		
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And the ref now feels let down after making a honest judged based on what he saw in quick time - other refs have come out and said that it was a tight call to make.

I can't see how throwing a ref to the wolves helps anything - even more so when it's far from the worst mistake that has been seen 

The media and social media reaction forced this and it's a disturbing turn of events 

Imagine how a ref feels now knowing that if he makes a genuine error in a game instead of it staying on the pitch - the mass reaction forces his governing body to say he was wrong ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Absolutely brilliant that the Rugby authorities have been open and honest enough to put this statement out. Fantastic - football associations could learn a lot from it rather than defending the indefensible with some of the dodgy refereeing decisions out there.

Nobody is arguing the result shouldn't stand but this is a brilliant and mature contribution to the debate.
		
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I have to laugh when we hold Rugby up as a beacon of sportsmanship and shining example against football, just don't mention drug use though.


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And that's been discussed elsewhere in the other thread 

This is about the desicion to award the penalty which his governing body have thrown him under the bus for. 

What he did after is irrelevant in the subject 

It certainly is a discussion point elsewhere but will certainly need to hear why he left the field before he is hung out to dry 

*Even then it's not rugby to have open season on him*

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Indeed.

But my comment was about clarifying the comments on him being called a disgrace were for leaving the field, not for the decis..............ach, it don't matter.   


Don't folks have open season on a certain Welsh referee from time to time?  


Bring on the Six Nations.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the ref now feels let down after making a honest judged based on what he saw in quick time - other refs have come out and said that it was a tight call to make.

I can't see how throwing a ref to the wolves helps anything - even more so when it's far from the worst mistake that has been seen 

The media and social media reaction forced this and it's a disturbing turn of events 

Imagine how a ref feels now knowing that if he makes a genuine error in a game instead of it staying on the pitch - the mass reaction forces his governing body to say he was wrong ?
		
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			Joubert "could not refer to the television match official (TMO) in this case and therefore had to rely on what he saw in real time".
		
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			"Despite this experience, Craig has been and remains a world-class referee and an important member of our team."
		
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Hardly throwing him to the wolves.

He made a mistake, understandable human error, that directly changed the outcome of a world cup quarter final. Absolutely fantastic that the rugby authorities are not trying to ignore or obscure that fact.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			I have to laugh when we hold Rugby up as a beacon of sportsmanship and shining example against football, just don't mention drug use though.
		
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Me too usually, thought that even as I wrote that post.

I greatly prefer football fans to rugger buggers as well, not that either are particularly appealing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hardly throwing him to the wolves.

He made a mistake, understandable human error, that directly changed the outcome of a world cup quarter final. Absolutely fantastic that the rugby authorities are not trying to ignore or obscure that fact.
		
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And mistakes have been made before that have costs countries bigger than a semi final yet there hasn't been the need to comment 

Rugby fans and people respected that and it stayed on the field and there was no hysterical reactions in the media and on social media - that's all changed now 

Do we now expect the governing bodies to come out and inform everyone when a ref makes a mistake ? Has the precedent been set now 

If he made an understandable human mistake why was that not respected as has always been the case in rugby and left on the field ? Instead of the outcry of injustice to hysterical levels that has been seen


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## pokerjoke (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Hardly throwing him to the wolves.

He made a mistake, understandable human error, that directly changed the outcome of a world cup quarter final. Absolutely fantastic that the rugby authorities are not trying to ignore or obscure that fact.
		
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Spot on I read it properly too.

Some people just add there own words


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Me too usually, thought that even as I wrote that post.

I greatly prefer football fans to rugger buggers as well, not that either are particularly appealing.
		
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No doubt the decision, in hindsight, cost Scotland the win, but we have to remember the tmo was brought in to help Referees, if the officials were 100% correct there would be no need for trial by television, he made the decision he thought was correct, in any sport this analyse by TV is wrong, haven't we had Golfers punished because some watching TV 5000 miles away spotted an infringment!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And mistakes have been made before that have costs countries bigger than a semi final yet there hasn't been the need to comment 

Rugby fans and people respected that and it stayed on the field and there was no hysterical reactions in the media and on social media - that's all changed now 

Do we now expect the governing bodies to come out and inform everyone when a ref makes a mistake ? Has the precedent been set now 

If he made an understandable human mistake why was that not respected as has always been the case in rugby and left on the field ? Instead of the outcry of injustice to hysterical levels that has been seen
		
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Some decisions are clearly highly controversial and pivotal. This was one of them. In my opinion, by coming out like this they have actually defused the situation and it will now quickly be forgotten as we (well the southern hemisphere) look forward to the semis.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Indeed.

But my comment was about clarifying the comments on him being called a disgrace were for leaving the field, not for the decis..............ach, it don't matter.   


Don't folks have open season on a certain Welsh referee from time to time?  


Bring on the Six Nations. 

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Here is what they said about him leaving 

Suggestions of a bottle being thrown ?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34572066


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the ref now feels let down after making a honest judged based on what he saw in quick time - other refs have come out and said that it was a tight call to make.

I can't see how throwing a ref to the wolves helps anything - even more so when it's far from the worst mistake that has been seen 

The media and social media reaction forced this and it's a disturbing turn of events 

Imagine how a ref feels now knowing that if he makes a genuine error in a game instead of it staying on the pitch - the mass reaction forces his governing body to say he was wrong ?
		
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Maybe the referee was happy for this to be known after his post match debrief?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			No doubt the decision, in hindsight, cost Scotland the win, but we have to remember the tmo was brought in to help Referees, if the officials were 100% correct there would be no need for trial by television, he made the decision he thought was correct, in any sport this analyse by TV is wrong, haven't we had Golfers punished because some watching TV 5000 miles away spotted an infringment!
		
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But the whole world can see the TV footage and draw their own conclusion. I think it fantastic that the authorities have not tried to hide in the face of the evidence everyone had already seen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Some decisions are clearly highly controversial and pivotal. This was one of them. In my opinion, by coming out like this they have actually defused the situation and it will now quickly be forgotten as we (well the southern hemisphere) look forward to the semis.
		
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But there has been bigger and more pivotal contraversial decisions over the years but nothing has been said 

Don't think they have defused it all - think they have made it worse and now the demands for them to speak up after every game are going to increase - a precedent has now been set and people will expect them to call refs desicion wrong when it changes a match 

Listening to 5live on the way home and reading Twitter etc has just intensified the debate


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## upsidedown (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			But the whole world can see the TV footage and draw their own conclusion. I think it fantastic that the authorities have not tried to hide in the face of the evidence everyone had already seen.
		
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I agree it is rather refreshing .


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## c1973 (Oct 19, 2015)

Has anyone seen this bottle being thrown? Evidence? I certainly never witnessed it prior to him sprinting off the park.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But there has been bigger and more pivotal contraversial decisions over the years but nothing has been said 

Don't think they have defused it all - think they have made it worse and now the demands for them to speak up after every game are going to increase - a precedent has now been set and people will expect them to call refs desicion wrong when it changes a match 

Listening to 5live on the way home and reading Twitter etc has just intensified the debate
		
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Nothing wrong with trying something new.

I think this is a great move. You don't. C'est la vie.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			But the whole world can see the TV footage and draw their own conclusion. I think it fantastic that the authorities have not tried to hide in the face of the evidence everyone had already seen.
		
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Happy for the authorities to be honest, but were do you draw the line, this one cost Scotland the match because it happened at the end, if it had happened in the first 90 seconds and the result finished the same, do you think the authorities would've made this statement or the fans so annoyed?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Happy for the authorities to be honest, but were do you draw the line, this one cost Scotland the match because it happened at the end, if it had happened in the first 90 seconds and the result finished the same, do you think the authorities would've made this statement or the fans so annoyed?
		
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No, not at all. As I said, some decisions are particularly controversial and/or pivotal to the outcome. It's always going to be a judgement call if/when to make a statement like this but brilliant that, in some circumstances, they are prepared to do so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Has anyone seen this bottle being thrown? Evidence? I certainly never witnessed it prior to him sprinting off the park.
		
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No idea just saying what the article says


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nothing wrong with trying something new.

I think this is a great move. You don't. C'est la vie.
		
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So does it happen for every match or just when there is an outcry of injustice ? 

Are fans now going to demand that they speak up 

As Dallaligo and Nicol said tonight on 5 Live - Rugby has just let itself down by not respecting the tradition that it all stays on the pitch - the line has been crossed now and it's a slippery road downhill


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does it happen for every match or just when there is an outcry of injustice ? 

Are fans now going to demand that they speak up 

As Dallaligo and Nicol said tonight on 5 Live - Rugby has just let itself down by not respecting the tradition that it all stays on the pitch - the line has been crossed now and it's a slippery road downhill
		
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Tradition is not always a good thing. Better respect the fans than tradition.

C'est la vie. :thup:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does it happen for every match or just when there is an outcry of injustice ? 

Are fans now going to demand that they speak up 

As Dallaligo and Nicol said tonight on 5 Live - Rugby has just let itself down by not respecting the tradition that it all stays on the pitch - the line has been crossed now and it's a slippery road downhill
		
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But in all honesty Phil, I think they are being a bit naive, keep an eye on the semi-finals, it was mentioned the other day about players questioning decisions when it was always the Captain only, I think the days of Rugby traditions are eroding away and some prefer to deny it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Tradition is not always a good thing. Better respect the fans than tradition.

C'est la vie. :thup:
		
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The Fans have always been respected in Rugby and Rugby fans have always shown respect and whilst being disappointed that games don't go their way have left the descisions on the pitch where they belong and it's something that held Rugby and their fans higher than other sports - until now.


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But in all honesty Phil, I think they are being a bit naive, keep an eye on the semi-finals, it was mentioned the other day about players questioning decisions when it was always the Captain only, I think the days of Rugby traditions are eroding away and some prefer to deny it.
		
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If you watch Gordy Reid as Joubert makes the decision he asks Laidlaw to question it and to look at the replay. Joubert didn't need the TMO to overturn the decision he could have done it himself i believe, you see Laidlaw asking him to look at the big screen, thats respect from the players. Im not saying they all do it as POC chinned the ref all the time for Munster despite not being captain.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But in all honesty Phil, I think they are being a bit naive, keep an eye on the semi-finals, it was mentioned the other day about players questioning decisions when it was always the Captain only, I think the days of Rugby traditions are eroding away and some prefer to deny it.
		
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Captains are still the ones who will speak to the ref

Perfect example was in the game with NZ and France - a French player was about to say something and then realised and just walked away meakly 

I haven't seen too many instances of players questioning the ref 

But I did see a player dive and make a meal of a challenge so maybe things are going the way of football


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			But in all honesty Phil, I think they are being a bit naive, keep an eye on the semi-finals, it was mentioned the other day about players questioning decisions when it was always the Captain only, I think the days of Rugby traditions are eroding away and some prefer to deny it.
		
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It has been evident. Didn't the ref tell one of the SA players to "concentrate on playing and not talking". It's happening and will carry on. In the light of the OP's link I don't see it as the ref being hung out to dry at all and think it's good they've come out and said that the referee made a mistake albeit an understandable one. Where do you draw that line? You can't send every passage of play to the TMO or it becomes nothing more than American Football without the helmets and you have to allow the refs to referee and know they are doing the best they can all the time in what is becoming a faster and faster sport


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			If you watch Gordy Reid as Joubert makes the decision he asks Laidlaw to question it and to look at the replay. Joubert didn't need the TMO to overturn the decision he could have done it himself i believe, you see Laidlaw asking him to look at the big screen, thats respect from the players. Im not saying they all do it as POC chinned the ref all the time for Munster despite not being captain.
		
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Joubert isn't allowed to reverse the decision based on a television replay in the stadium - not allowed to be influenced by a television replay - and Laidlaw shouldn't ask him to look at the replay when he can't ,they were discussing that exact thing tonight and mentioning that television directors not to show replays unless it's with the TMO

He can change based on what his touch judges say


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Fans have always been respected in Rugby and Rugby fans have always shown respect and whilst being disappointed that games don't go their way have left the descisions on the pitch where they belong and it's something that held Rugby and their fans higher than other sports - until now.
		
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Phil, it doesn't matter how many times you say it people will still disagree. 

World Rugby made a brave move doing it and I commend them for it, it doesn't change a thing in that game though, it doesn't make us Scotland fans feel better and all it does is shows that World Rugby are happy to say when their men got it wrong rather than hiding under a stone and letting it fizz out. Yes refs are human and I get that, is this an honest mistake from Joubert? Probably but because he has previous for favouring the "big team" people will always question him when he makes a wrong crucial call.


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## Spuddy (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*But there has been bigger and more pivotal contraversial decisions over the years but nothing has been said* 

Don't think they have defused it all - think they have made it worse and now the demands for them to speak up after every game are going to increase - a precedent has now been set and people will expect them to call refs desicion wrong when it changes a match 

Listening to 5live on the way home and reading Twitter etc has just intensified the debate
		
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Of course there have poor decisions before that have called out at the time. Remember the last world cup final? I wonder who the ref was then......

Granted, the noises are probably louder now with social media expansion


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Joubert isn't allowed to reverse the decision based on a television replay in the stadium - not allowed to be influenced by a television replay - and Laidlaw shouldn't ask him to look at the replay when he can't ,they were discussing that exact thing tonight and mentioning that television directors not to show replays unless it's with the TMO

He can change based on what his touch judges say
		
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Wasn't aware of that.


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Captains are still the ones who will speak to the ref

Perfect example was in the game with NZ and France - a French player was about to say something and then realised and just walked away meakly 

I haven't seen too many instances of players questioning the ref 

*But I did see a player dive and make a meal of a challenge so maybe things are going the way of football*

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Maybe not

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-unio...gg-makes-diving-promise-after-referees-rebuke


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Phil, it doesn't matter how many times you say it people will still disagree. 

World Rugby made a brave move doing it and I commend them for it, it doesn't change a thing in that game though, it doesn't make us Scotland fans feel better and all it does is shows that World Rugby are happy to say when their men got it wrong rather than hiding under a stone and letting it fizz out. Yes refs are human and I get that, is this an honest mistake from Joubert? Probably but because he has previous for favouring the "big team" people will always question him when he makes a wrong crucial call.
		
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Very good point although with his increasing number of these wrong calls you wonder how many of these show piece games he'll get going forward


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## pokerjoke (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Captains are still the ones who will speak to the ref

Perfect example was in the game with NZ and France - a French player was about to say something and then realised and just walked away meakly 

I haven't seen too many instances of players questioning the ref 

Nor me,I thought the Scottish boys showed the utmost respect to the official through the whole game and imo the respect is definitely still there.
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Phil, it doesn't matter how many times you say it people will still disagree. 

World Rugby made a brave move doing it and I commend them for it, it doesn't change a thing in that game though, it doesn't make us Scotland fans feel better and all it does is shows that World Rugby are happy to say when their men got it wrong rather than hiding under a stone and letting it fizz out. Yes refs are human and I get that, is this an honest mistake from Joubert? Probably but because he has previous for favouring the "big team" people will always question him when he makes a wrong crucial call.
		
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So now you question the integrity of the referee - this has happened because of the reaction of both the Scottish captain , coach and fans - the World Rugby wouldn't need to say anything if the desicion was respected as it normally has been - it's changed now and now it will just get worse , anytime a desicion happens that effects a game there will be the hysterical outcry and demands for public outing of the ref and there will now be an expectation for the RFU etc to comment on the descisions. 

I don't see how that's a brave thing to do as it sets a dangerous precedent and I wonder if the feeling would be the same if it was an English desicion


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very good point although with his increasing number of these wrong calls you wonder how many of these show piece games he'll get going forward
		
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He shouldn't get any, I said earlier I wouldn't like him not to referee but he should be demoted. That scenario does happen in football.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Maybe not

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-unio...gg-makes-diving-promise-after-referees-rebuke

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I hope so - doing it that once was bad enough.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			He shouldn't get any, I said earlier I wouldn't like him not to referee but he should be demoted. That scenario does happen in football.
		
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I agree. However is it just me, and I hold up my hand and say I am not too clued up, but isn't the international panel, a bit like ICC umpires a bit light at the top in terms of real top class officials with the experience to handle these occasions


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			Captains are still the ones who will speak to the ref

Perfect example was in the game with NZ and France - a French player was about to say something and then realised and just walked away meakly 

I haven't seen too many instances of players questioning the ref 

Nor me,I thought the Scottish boys showed the utmost respect to the official through the whole game and imo the respect is definitely still there.
		
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Think the players will always respect the ref and rightly so , can understand the immediate reaction because it was gutting for them 

It's the media and social media outcry after that is disappointing ( more so the media )
		
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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So now you question the integrity of the referee* - this has happened because of the reaction of both the Scottish captain , coach and fans - the World Rugby wouldn't need to say anything if the desicion was respected as it normally has been - it's changed now and now it will just get worse , anytime a desicion happens that effects a game there will be the hysterical outcry and demands for public outing of the ref and there will now be an expectation for the RFU etc to comment on the descisions. 

I don't see how that's a brave thing to do as it sets a dangerous precedent and *I wonder if the feeling would be the same if it was an English desicion*

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You're being stupid now, I didn't once question the referee's integrity.

i'll leave this debate to yourself. I'm afraid bringing England into something that has nothing to do with them is trolling.

Enjoy your night


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Wasn't aware of that.
		
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Apparently it happened in a Super ten matches a couple years back with a ref seeing a replay and changing his mind -

Need the television companies to be involved


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Captains are still the ones who will speak to the ref

Perfect example was in the game with NZ and France - a French player was about to say something and then realised and just walked away meakly 

I haven't seen too many instances of players questioning the ref 

But I did see a player dive and make a meal of a challenge so maybe things are going the way of football
		
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My point is, at one time it was the Captain and the Captain only, now it might only be him 99% of the time, next year it might be 98%, it was mentioned by one of the commentators during the group phase that he had noticed a couple of players not the Captains questioning decisions and it was something they should make an effort to stamp out.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Joubert isn't allowed to reverse the decision based on a television replay in the stadium - not allowed to be influenced by a television replay - and Laidlaw shouldn't ask him to look at the replay when he can't ,they were discussing that exact thing tonight and mentioning that television directors not to show replays unless it's with the TMO

He can change based on what his touch judges say
		
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In the England game and I cant remember who it was against the referee did change a decision after seeing a replay on the big screen.
The team scored a try but the big screen showed he had lost control of the ball and the ref went to the TMO for confirmation and reversed the decision.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			You're being stupid now, I didn't once question the referee's integrity.

i'll leave this debate to yourself. I'm afraid bringing England into something that has nothing to do with them is trolling.

Enjoy your night
		
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To be fair Val, we had our on match in our hands and the XV on the field got it wrong not the referee.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			You're being stupid now, I didn't once question the referee's integrity.

i'll leave this debate to yourself. I'm afraid bringing England into something that has nothing to do with them is trolling.

Enjoy your night
		
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Suggesting that the ref could possibly favour the bigger teams 

"Is this an honest mistake from Joubert" 

And yes I think it's fair to question that if the desicion went against England would it be brave that the governing body said it was a mistake ?


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To be fair Val, we had our on match in our hands and the XV on the field got it wrong not the referee.
		
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Thats not the point I'm making Homer. Read his post again and you'll get what I mean.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

pokerjoke said:



			In the England game and I cant remember who it was against the referee did change a decision after seeing a replay on the big screen.
The team scored a try but the big screen showed he had lost control of the ball and the ref went to the TMO for confirmation and reversed the decision.
		
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Because TMO can be used for tries and discipline etc - not on technical offences ( knock ons etc )


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## Val (Oct 19, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Suggesting that the ref could possibly favour the bigger teams 

"Is this an honest mistake from Joubert" 

And yes I think it's fair to question that if the desicion went against England would it be brave that the governing body said it was a mistake ?
		
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Selective quoting Phil, the next word I said was probably.

Im done with you tonight, respect all but gone with that dig I'm afraid.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Thats not the point I'm making Homer. Read his post again and you'll get what I mean.
		
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I know but was trying to shift the onus a tad. I get what you're saying 100%. It's going to happen. Referees in all sports will make mistakes even with the technology at hand. I can't see how that will ever really change. Yes if it happened to England in any sport I'd be miffed as a fan but what can you do?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Val said:



			Selective quoting Phil, the next word I said was probably.

Im done with you tonight, respect all but gone with that dig I'm afraid.
		
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Not a dig Val but have you not mentioned it before in regards Joubert and possible favouritism ? 

To even mention it then surely there must be a doubt even small in your mind that he possibly does favour the bigger nations - seen the suspicion posted about him before on Twitter as well


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2015)

Very good article from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...nd-you-are-attacking-the-spirit-of-rugby.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2015)

Khamelion said:



			Although the penalty may now be being ruled incorrect, Scotland took defeat from the jaws of victory with the poor line out throw in and the subsequent mess they made of it. It's easy to write in hindsight, but all they had to do was keep the ball for 90 seconds, clear the line, boot it up field and get it away from their own goal line and out of drop goal range. 

Its tough to lose the way they did, as they played brilliantly for 78 and a bit mins, but a lapse of concentration denied them the victory they should have had, but now with World Rugby saying the ref made a mistake, that's just rubbing salt, iodine and soap into the wound.
		
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Sod that - the decision was wrong.


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## upsidedown (Oct 19, 2015)

Talking this over with my nephew and we both agreed that endless TMO referrals are bad for the game so how about they went to the " Challenge system " Each captain has the right to challenge "ONE"  decision each half, get it right and he keeps it, wrong and it's gone. TMO keeps an eye on Foul play and lets Ref know if he/AR's misses any and the game keeps moving.


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## Slab (Oct 20, 2015)

Echo the posts saying its great (even refreshing) to hear the governing body release their ref performance review

It was the wrong call, it was an error, a mistake why hide or deny it, that would only fuel any unwarranted calls of bias or favouritism 

There's no buses, wolves or hangmen, just an acknowledgement from the governing body of what the decision should have been 

The guy screwed up (as all will from time to time) but he chose to deal with it by legging it off the pitch!



edit to add, if you go to the RWC shop lots of stuff at half price! some bargains to be had there


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2015)

Slab said:



			Echo the posts saying its great (even refreshing) to hear the governing body release their ref performance review

It was the wrong call, it was an error, a mistake why hide or deny it, that would only fuel any unwarranted calls of bias or favouritism 

There's no buses, wolves or hangmen, just an acknowledgement from the governing body of what the decision should have been 

The guy screwed up (as all will from time to time) but he chose to deal with it by legging it off the pitch!
		
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So simple question - should it happen now after every single match ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So simple question - should it happen now after every single match ?
		
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No Phil, because it's not practical as you don't have cameras and 80,000 people watching at the lical pitch.
In high pfofile games on the world stage, Yes absolutely, just like it should in every sport at that level, officials are human and as soon as the public realise mistakes happen without malice, there maybe more of an acceptance when it does.
Some agree with you, some disagree.
You're like a dog with a bone over some points recently, some will not see eye to eye on every subject.
The answer is YES and NO.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			No Phil, because it's not practical as you don't have cameras and 80,000 people watching at the lical pitch.
In high pfofile games on the world stage, Yes absolutely, just like it should in every sport at that level, officials are human and as soon as the public realise mistakes happen without malice, there maybe more of an acceptance when it does.
Some agree with you, some disagree.
You're like a dog with a bone over some points recently, some will not see eye to eye on every subject.
The answer is YES and NO.
		
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So any televised game the governing body should come out afterwards and say where the ref got mistakes wrong ? No more leaving it on the field and respecting any decision the ref makes ( as has happened for over 40 years plus in Rugby ) 

In Rugby the public have always realised mistakes happen - Rugby fans have always accepted mistakes happen even in the biggest games in the world. There was never any need for anyone to come out because it was left on the field. Has that all changed now because of a number of ex Professional Rugby players ( a number getting the rules about TMO very wrong ) coming out and slating the ref and then the media leaping on to it ?


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## Baldy Bouncer (Oct 20, 2015)

I would suggest that people should ignore most of what`s  written on social media as BS and then there wouldn`t be such an "hysterical outcry".

People like fanning flames for as long as they can, even on non stories.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2015)

It's sport, it happens.

I seem to recall a Scots v Wales fitba game where a Scots hand was involved in a crucial goal.

Some you win some you lose.....one thing about that brilliant game of rugby is that I will never forget it.


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## sawtooth (Oct 20, 2015)

Better to leave it go now and it'll be remembered as the game that Scotland could've, should've won if it wasn't for the referee.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So any televised game the governing body should come out afterwards and say where the ref got mistakes wrong ? No more leaving it on the field and respecting any decision the ref makes ( as has happened for over 40 years plus in Rugby ) 

In Rugby the public have always realised mistakes happen - Rugby fans have always accepted mistakes happen even in the biggest games in the world. There was never any need for anyone to come out because it was left on the field. Has that all changed now because of a number of ex Professional Rugby players ( a number getting the rules about TMO very wrong ) coming out and slating the ref and then the media leaping on to it ?
		
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Like I said Yes and No, look at the 2 matches Eng V Wales & Scot v Aus,
The English players know they weren't good enough and made bad decisions and they have to live with that, the Scottish players were tremendous did everything they could and someone else made that bad decision, they can live with themselves knowing they were robbed, no doubting themselves, the Referee has took away the chance for ever of some of them players ever reaching that level again.
You keep blaming ex-pro's and the media, guess what Phil, they were correct, fact! It was the wrong call and good on the authorities for admitting it, din't worry sometimes they'll back the official.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Like I said Yes and No, look at the 2 matches Eng V Wales & Scot v Aus,
The English players know they weren't good enough and made bad decisions and they have to live with that, the Scottish players were tremendous did everything they could and someone else made that bad decision, they can live with themselves knowing they were robbed, no doubting themselves, the Referee has took away the chance for ever of some of them players ever reaching that level again.
You keep blaming ex-pro's and the media, guess what Phil, they were correct, fact! It was the wrong call and good on the authorities for admitting it, din't worry sometimes they'll back the official.
		
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First of all - The England match has no relevant and not the discussion point

Second Point - the penalty which took numerous replays to decide who the ball came off ( some it appears still not 100% sure exactly who it came off last ) came from a poor Scotland line out - the decision to award penalty isnt that scandalous - its a judgement call and could have been a penalty or a scrum to Australia. There has been worse desicions in big games that have cost teams but the reaction from ex pros and media etc has been poor and its not what normally happens within Rugby - people accept that refs make the wrong calls at times and it was left on the field. Sorry but Scotland had 80 mins to win the game and understand there are other decisions within the match that could have gone either way and indeed one went for Scotland for one of their tries but its left on the field. 

Its now the main talking point in the news - it hasnt defused the situation its made it worse. 

The thing that Joubert did which was wrong and he should have to explain is the running off the field - that needs to be explained why he did that but awarding a penalty instead of a scrum on a judgement call on a split second seeing without the ability to use TMO ( which some ex pros cant seem to understand ) - sorry but thats not scandalous at all and part of the game and should be left when the whistle goes - as it always has been in the past. 

A precedent has now been set where any team who feel they have had an incorrect descision go against them will expect the governing body to come out and let them know the ref got it wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			First of all - The England match has no relevant and not the discussion point

Second Point - the penalty which took numerous replays to decide who the ball came off ( some it appears still not 100% sure exactly who it came off last ) came from a poor Scotland line out - the decision to award penalty isnt that scandalous - its a judgement call and could have been a penalty or a scrum to Australia. There has been worse desicions in big games that have cost teams but the reaction from ex pros and media etc has been poor and its not what normally happens within Rugby - people accept that refs make the wrong calls at times and it was left on the field. Sorry but Scotland had 80 mins to win the game and understand there are other decisions within the match that could have gone either way and indeed one went for Scotland for one of their tries but its left on the field. 

Its now the main talking point in the news - it hasnt defused the situation its made it worse. 

The thing that Joubert did which was wrong and he should have to explain is the running off the field - that needs to be explained why he did that but awarding a penalty instead of a scrum on a judgement call on a split second seeing without the ability to use TMO ( which some ex pros cant seem to understand ) - sorry but thats not scandalous at all and part of the game and should be left when the whistle goes - as it always has been in the past. 

A precedent has now been set where any team who feel they have had an incorrect descision go against them will expect the governing body to come out and let them know the ref got it wrong.
		
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I'm out, as once again it's your way or no way,


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## Slab (Oct 20, 2015)

It's 2015 Phil, you simply cannot expect you & the officials to be the only parties to wish to 'leave it on the field' because its traditional 

The governing body accepted obligations to far more parties when they chose to have their event televised round the globe and be paid handsomely for it and if some small part of those obligations mean they should acknowledge an mistake occurred at a crucial/pivotal moment in one of their games then so be it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's sport, it happens.

I seem to recall a Scots v Wales fitba game where a Scots hand was involved in a crucial goal.

Some you win some you lose.....one thing about that brilliant game of rugby is that I will never forget it.
		
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Doon - we won 2-0 - I was there...

Now if it had been 0-0 and JJ had played volleyball in the last minute then OK...


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So does it happen for every match or just when there is an outcry of injustice ? 

Are fans now going to demand that they speak up 

As Dallaligo and Nicol said tonight on 5 Live -* Rugby has just let itself down by not respecting the tradition that it all stays on the pitch - the line has been crossed now and it's a slippery road downhill*

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That 'line' was crossed quite a long time ago - when citing was introduced!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			That 'line' was crossed quite a long time ago - when citing was introduced!
		
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Is the Aussie who late-barged Hogg getting cited?


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is the Aussie who late-barged Hogg getting cited?
		
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The Citing Commissioner would have looked at that incident. The fact that no further action was taken indicates it was not deemed sufficient to cite! The TMO was quite capable of checking it as well - for the same reason as Maitland's knock-on (which was extremely harsh imo).


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## sev112 (Oct 20, 2015)

Interesting that no one remembering the missed Aussie knock on in their first try - scrum half dropped the ball forward and ref didn't see it 

I'm sure there must have been more as well.


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