# Sports persons taking the knee



## Mudball (Dec 7, 2020)

well it started in the NFL, but now we see it every where. Some Millwall supporters did not like it. Twitter was divided - with some calling it ‘forcing a woke onto others’ while others supporting. 

IMHO it is a good thing. There are anti-racism days at grassroots footy too and it is good to see a symbolic gesture that calls it out. It can also take different forms - anyone seen the Aussie cricket kit at the moment


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## fundy (Dec 7, 2020)

well the fans at Millwall have got their way, Millwall wont be taking the knee tomorrow night, dont want to be booed by their own fans on tv do they lol


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2020)

Don’t want to be booed but happy to be bullied...hmm


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## Orikoru (Dec 7, 2020)

It's a strange one. I don't think it really does anything. Doing it the first time is a message, doing it before every single game is just reducing it to a meaningless pre-match ritual like the hand-shaking that they used to do, or national anthems at international games. Are they going to do it forever now? Since there doesn't really seem a logical point to stop now that they've kept it up this long. None of this means it's acceptable to boo it though of course - ridiculous behaviour. They might as well have turned up with a massive banner that says "we're all racists and proud".


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## Fade and Die (Dec 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			It's a strange one. I don't think it really does anything. Doing it the first time is a message, doing it before every single game is just reducing it to a meaningless pre-match ritual like the hand-shaking that they used to do, or national anthems at international games. Are they going to do it forever now? Since there doesn't really seem a logical point to stop now that they've kept it up this long. None of this means it's acceptable to boo it though of course - ridiculous behaviour. *They might as well have turned up with a massive banner that says "we're all racists and proud"*.
		
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What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.


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## Orikoru (Dec 7, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.

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I mean the perception it gave, obviously. They don't even say it's for BLM when they do it now, commentators always say they're taking the knee 'against racism' or some general term as they're careful not to ally themselves with BLM anymore. Probably why also wear the multicolour badge thing instead of BLM ones. Most people can see the knee as being against racism rather than being a support of a political movement can't they?


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## Fade and Die (Dec 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I mean the perception it gave, obviously. They don't even say it's for BLM when they do it now, commentators always say they're taking the knee 'against racism' or some general term as they're careful not to ally themselves with BLM anymore. Probably why also wear the multicolour badge thing instead of BLM ones. Most people can see the knee as being against racism rather than being a support of a political movement can't they?
		
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No I think the taking a knee will always be associated with the BLM movement, and the foolish clenched fist Black Power salute by the Derby player only serves to antagonise. 
Some well meaning things take on a life of their own at times...the original sentiment gets lost.and the stirrers use it to their advantage.........the whole BLM and taking a Knee thing are prime examples.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			No I think the taking a knee will always be associated with the BLM movement, and the foolish clenched fist Black Power salute by the Derby player only serves to antagonise.
Some well meaning things take on a life of their own at times...the original sentiment gets lost.and the stirrers use it to their advantage.........the whole BLM and taking a Knee thing are prime examples.
		
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The idea was full of good intentions at the start, but as usual people jump on the band wagon for their own agenda.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's a straightforward anti-racist gesture. Anyone rationalising why that might be a bad thing needs to take a long hard look at their own prejudices.
		
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If I could like it twice, I would 👍👍👍👍


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			No I think the taking a knee will always be associated with the BLM movement, and the foolish clenched fist Black Power salute by the Derby player only serves to antagonise.
Some well meaning things take on a life of their own at times...the original sentiment gets lost.and the stirrers use it to their advantage.........the whole BLM and taking a Knee thing are prime examples.
		
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The fact that players taking the knee is still upsetting some people shows they still need to be doing it. 

If anyone believes that Millwall fans were booing for political reasons needs to give their head a wobble.


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## 2blue (Dec 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's a straightforward anti-racist gesture. Anyone rationalising why that might be a bad thing needs to take a long hard look at their own prejudices.
		
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Absolutely right....  nothing to do with politics except in the minds of the excusers. 🙄


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## Liverbirdie (Dec 8, 2020)

Its a large cop out about BLM being marxist, and even if you truly believe that, well just wait for the right wing to set up their own version of BLM.

Dont hold your breath, though.


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

I Personally don't like it. As an act it doesn't really make sense as we play no national anthem. And for some it's indistinguishable from BLM, which as a group have no formal place in football. 

Tho i'm not sure how else to raise awareness. The NFL lets players make a statement as they see fit (finally). Even after treating Colin Kaepernick and Eric Reid abhorrently. Many players have statements or even the names of those killed by police on the back of their helmets. I don't think a one size fits all approach works. It feels like it's a cop our from those involved and then idiots always hijack it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2020)

Stating high political or societal principle can, I suspect, be a smokescreen put up to justify an action that seems unacceptable, unbecoming, inappropriate or damaging, but which is in fact just that.


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## Rooter (Dec 8, 2020)

Surprised no one picked up on the Millwall fan statement ‘some of millwalls finest have been black’

‘I’m not racist, I went to school with a black lad’


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## backwoodsman (Dec 8, 2020)

Why am I not surprised it happened at Millwall?

 to Kaz, CanaryYellow & 2Blue


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## Neilds (Dec 8, 2020)

Personally I would rather football take some positive action rather than ‘gestures’. A top flight black manager for example or someone in the FA/Premier League. After all, they have been doing the rainbow laces for years and still there are no openly gay male footballers. Actions need to speak louder


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## Mudball (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.

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interesting take and extension of the idea. Tbh, I thought taking the knee is now a more generic form of anti-discrimination symbol than a BLM specific one. We always have had a ‘kick it out’ movement but the knee has given it a visual cue.  Thinking of the knee as irrelevant because it’s anti-police, antifa, no national anthem/flag, political etc is taking a narrow literal view 

Those who think discrimination does not exists are either blind, ignorant or have not experienced it. It is not just a race thing - white folks can also be at the receiving end, but being different in any form amplifies it.


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## rudebhoy (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.

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Quoting some pea-brained football hooligan hardly helps your argument. Care to tell us what the word you scribbled out says?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.

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Is that why some of the West Ham fans booed as well 

The Millwall excuse was a cop out and the response above was exactly the response we saw from the likes of the EDL , and that’s where Millwall fans fit in perfectly 

Their reaction on social media with posting pictures of black players that they voted in their player of the year etc etc - trying very hard to show they aren’t racist 

The kneeling by the players is in support against racism and persecution, BLM has a very small radical bunch that went over the top but the message is very clear - it’s time people were stopped being judged and treated differently based on their colour 

Millwall came out with loads of lovely little statements saying they won’t tolerate it yet they now brush the issue away but the players no longer kneeling , those racist fans win , they get what they what - it’s disgusting and just another chapter in the life of Millwall football club and the racist element still alive and well within football and within the UK 

The actions at the weekend of fans at Millwall , Colchester and West Ham show exactly why these symbols need to continue 

They can hide behind any excuse they want but everyone knows why they booed


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## Orikoru (Dec 8, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Quoting some pea-brained football hooligan hardly helps your argument. Care to tell us what the word you scribbled out says?
		
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It is a naughty word that begins with F.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2020)

See what happens when you let 'fans' back into football grounds.

Groups of Millwall FC supporters have a 70 year historic record of being numpties so no surprise they are taking this stance.
The good news is because of their reputation average home gates are very low [13k] so we are talking about a dwindling minority


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## Orikoru (Dec 8, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Surprised no one picked up on the Millwall fan statement ‘some of millwalls finest have been black’

‘I’m not racist, I went to school with a black lad’



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More on that note...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1335536428302864385


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			BLM has a very small radical bunch that went over the top but the message is very clear
		
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https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

No Thanks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

No Thanks. 

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That’s the only you pick then ? Ignoring all persecution and racism - can you not even see the point they are trying to make even if the idea is radical . Being persecuted by the police just because of the colour of their skin - can you not even see that it’s still going on and that it needs to stop


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s the only you pick then ? Ignoring all persecution and racism - can you not even see the point they are trying to make even if the idea is radical . Being persecuted by the police just because of the colour of their skin - can you not even see that it’s still going on and that it needs to stop
		
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Dan has never experienced it ergo Dan neither believes in it or cares.


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## rudebhoy (Dec 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

No Thanks. 

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Do you understand what "defund the police" actually means?

here's a good explanation from those anarchists and radical lefties at Good Housekeeping magazine -

*What does "defund the police" mean?*
It's a common misconception that "defunding the police" means completely stripping law enforcement of all of their funding. While while some organizations are indeed calling for the abolishment or dismantling of police altogether, *"defunding the police" simply means reducing police department budgets and redistributing those funds towards essential social services that are often underfunded, such as housing, education, employment, mental health care, and youth services.*

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/a33024951/defund-the-police-meaning/


one could argue that "defunding the police" has been going on for years in this country, certainly the first bit about reducing their budgets has.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2020)

@rudebhoy has it on what 'defunding' means...and yes - points to how UK policing came to be needing the current government to have to promise to recruit 20,000 more officers.   But in stating this obvious fact I perhaps drift too close to politics.


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## rudebhoy (Dec 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



@rudebhoy has it on what 'defunding' means...and yes - points to how UK policing came to be needing the current government to have to promise to recruit 20,000 more officers.   *But in stating this obvious fact I perhaps drift too close to politics*.
		
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that was why I refrained from mentioning who had been responsible for defunding the police over the last decade


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## pauljames87 (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that why some of the West Ham fans booed as well 

The Millwall excuse was a cop out and the response above was exactly the response we saw from the likes of the EDL , and that’s where Millwall fans fit in perfectly 

Their reaction on social media with posting pictures of black players that they voted in their player of the year etc etc - trying very hard to show they aren’t racist 

The kneeling by the players is in support against racism and persecution, BLM has a very small radical bunch that went over the top but the message is very clear - it’s time people were stopped being judged and treated differently based on their colour 

Millwall came out with loads of lovely little statements saying they won’t tolerate it yet they now brush the issue away but the players no longer kneeling , those racist fans win , they get what they what - it’s disgusting and just another chapter in the life of Millwall football club and the racist element still alive and well within football and within the UK 

The actions at the weekend of fans at Millwall , Colchester and West Ham show exactly why these symbols need to continue 

They can hide behind any excuse they want but everyone knows why they booed
		
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On Facebook a few weeks ago they had pictures of the game (can't remember which game )

Antonio was one of the pics taking the knee, then a few others from the game. Action shots 

One comment 

"This rubbish will stop soon as the fans get back we will make sure"

It's like what's wrong with you.


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## rudebhoy (Dec 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336040854792900609


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s the only you pick then ? Ignoring all persecution and racism - can you not even see the point they are trying to make even if the idea is radical . Being persecuted by the police just because of the colour of their skin - can you not even see that it’s still going on and that it needs to stop
		
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Of course I can see that's going on, It's terrible. The US is absolutely terrible.

However Defunding is a stupid idea, It's just going to make the situation more of a Sh**show than it currently is. They actually require more funding for better training and technology that makes it impossible to be unaccountable for their actions. Domestic Violence calls are one of the most dangerous calls to go on in the US, gonna send a social worker with a clipboard in?



Kellfire said:



			Dan has never experienced it ergo Dan neither believes in it or cares.
		
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Interesting, I got called a leftist snowflake in the other thread a few months back for my views. But hey, lets just stereotype because someone doesn't completely agree with you. Didn't get us in this situation in the first place


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2020)

If you were to put money on two teams who would have fans booing at the players kneeling. Millwall and West Ham would have been top of that list. Not all of their supporters it must be said. But it's not a surprise. 

The fans booing wouldn't know what Marxism means if the definition hit them in the face. It's extremely disappointing that Millwall have caved in and just shows the mentally of the whole club is rotten.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 8, 2020)

Most NFL teams have given up on this whole thing now.   It served its purpose at the time but now to diminishing returns.   The message got across and by use of national media coverage by the actual networks and work by the teams, the needle is moving in the right direction.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 8, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			If you were to put money on two teams who would have fans booing at the players kneeling. Millwall and West Ham would have been top of that list. Not all of their supporters it must be said. But it's not a surprise.

The fans booing wouldn't know what Marxism means if the definition hit them in the face. It's extremely disappointing that Millwall have caved in and just shows the mentally of the whole club is rotten.
		
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Millwall fans would think Marxism is having too many blokes called Mark in their team.


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## IanM (Dec 8, 2020)

Racism is only one of several nasty traits surfaced by this discussion.  

Footballers protesting on the pitch, while club owners and administrators tick a box and carry on as before.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Of course I can see that's going on, It's terrible. The US is absolutely terrible.

However Defunding is a stupid idea, It's just going to make the situation more of a Sh**show than it currently is. They actually require more funding for better training and technology that makes it impossible to be unaccountable for their actions. Domestic Violence calls are one of the most dangerous calls to go on in the US, gonna send a social worker with a clipboard in?



Interesting, I got called a leftist snowflake in the other thread a few months back for my views. But hey, lets just stereotype because someone doesn't completely agree with you. Didn't get us in this situation in the first place 

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Regardless of whether there is merit in what you say on defunding, do you really think it has any relevance at all to millwall fans booing players taking the knee?

I cannot see any reasonable justification for the booing


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Regardless of whether there is merit in what you say on defunding, do you really think it has any relevance at all to millwall fans booing players taking the knee?

I cannot see any reasonable justification for the booing
		
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Nope, they are trying to make an feeble excuse. It takes effort to boo, we're all aware what some sections of football fans are like. 

I was posting in response that BLM's message is clear. It is. And I fundamentally disagree with their proposed method to fix it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What a load of rubbish, they were not booing the Black Players, they were booing BLM movement and I think *Colin Kazim-Richards standing up whilst other knelt doing a “Black Power” salute.*

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This I could not get my head around, why a black power salute when taking a knee is supposed to be non political. Black power is supposed to be political.
Yet the photo showing the Black power stand, again was That taken and shown for a reason.
Personally I think the taking a knee has run its course. Racism has no place anywhere especially in sport.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Of course I can see that's going on, It's terrible. The US is absolutely terrible.

However Defunding is a stupid idea, It's just going to make the situation more of a Sh**show than it currently is. They actually require more funding for better training and technology that makes it impossible to be unaccountable for their actions. Domestic Violence calls are one of the most dangerous calls to go on in the US, gonna send a social worker with a clipboard in?



Interesting, I got called a leftist snowflake in the other thread a few months back for my views. But hey, lets just stereotype because someone doesn't completely agree with you. Didn't get us in this situation in the first place 

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funny how name calling can suit some people’s agenda. It’s like some folk are trying cause an avalanche of support against you. I was called “ elitist ignorance“ on one of my posts on Facebook the other day. I nearly spilt my Pims laughing.


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2020)

Mmmmmmmm......


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This I could not get my head around, why a black power salute when taking a knee is supposed to be non political. Black power is supposed to be political.
Yet the photo showing the Black power stand, again was That taken and shown for a reason.
Personally I think the taking a knee has run its course. Racism has no place anywhere especially in sport.
		
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How can it have run its course when clearly from the wider discussion that has come out of the actions of the millwall fans there is still so much ignorance and misunderstanding?

I could understand an argument to replace it with something else if you think the issue is it’s losing its impact?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This I could not get my head around, why a black power salute when taking a knee is supposed to be non political. Black power is supposed to be political.
Yet the photo showing the Black power stand, again was That taken and shown for a reason.
Personally I think the taking a knee has run its course. Racism has no place anywhere especially in sport.
		
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It only runs its course when there is no more persecution based on someone’s colour. Until that day then no protest against racism will ever “run its course”

I fail to comprehend how white people can decide that a protest against racism has overrun ?

Can any one of us ever really comprehend what a black person has had to put with in their life. Not once have I been treated different because I’m white yet I suspect a black person would have to put up with that sort of judgment and persecution daily, weekly , monthly. I saw it in the military and I’m appalled at myself for just standing by back then and thinking it was just something thag didn’t affect or concern me


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

Canary_Yellow said:



			How can it have run its course when clearly from the wider discussion that has come out of the actions of the millwall fans there is still so much ignorance and misunderstanding?

I could understand an argument to replace it with something else if you think the issue is it’s losing its impact?
		
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The actions of Millwall fans ( and others) in no way has influenced my thoughts on how I feel re taking a knee. At the start it meant something and it still does. But personally I feel it comes across now as something we just do pre match. I feel it does need replacing with something else.


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## 2blue (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It only runs its course when there is no more persecution based on someone’s colour. Until that day then no protest against racism will ever “run its course”

*I fail to comprehend how white people can decide that a protest against racism has overrun ?*

Can any one of us ever really comprehend what a black person has had to put with in their life. Not once have I been treated different because I’m white yet I suspect a black person would have to put up with that sort of judgment and persecution daily, weekly , monthly. I saw it in the military and I’m appalled at myself for just standing by back then and thinking it was just normal
		
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Absolutely this!!!
History has taught us that change can only be won by standing together, strong....  or in this case kneeling. There'll always be those who support those standing strong & sadly, there'll always be those who find reason/excuse to do otherwise.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 8, 2020)

Whilst I am totally in favour of the anti racist aims of the BLM movement, I do feel that the original message has been somewhat hijacked by political radicals and has therefore lost its impact.

Additionally I feel that the act of kneeling indicates subserviance, whereas nobody should be subserviant to another, we are looking for equality after all.

Linking arms or another gesture to show support for this vital cause is needed in order to refocus the message

Just my opinion, written without my Mod hat on


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## SatchFan (Dec 8, 2020)

I thought taking the knee was something to do with Game of Thrones.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Whilst I am totally in favour of the anti racist aims of the BLM movement, I do feel that the original message has been somewhat hijacked by political radicals and has therefore lost its impact.

Additionally I feel that the act of kneeling indicates subserviance, whereas nobody should be subserviant to another, we are looking for equality after all.

Linking arms or another gesture to show support for this vital cause is needed in order to refocus the message

Just my opinion, written without my Mod hat on
		
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This explains the reason why they go down on one knee 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/explainers-53098516

*An image of Martin Luther King going down on one knee while in prayer at a civil rights march in 1965 has been widely used in recent years.*


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This explains the reason why they go down on one knee 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/explainers-53098516

*An image of Martin Luther King going down on one knee while in prayer at a civil rights march in 1965 has been widely used in recent years.*

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I’m aware of the reasons why taking the knee was chosen, but most cultures would view kneeling as a subservient attitude, which isn’t equal, whereas linking arms is.

I have no problem at all with the message, but the imagery is at odds with that message


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m aware of the reasons why taking the knee was chosen, but most cultures would view kneeling as a subservient attitude, which isn’t equal, whereas linking arms is.

I have no problem at all with the message, but the imagery is at odds with that message
		
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Surely it shouldn’t matter what other cultures see when it’s the message that black people from all cultures have decided because they see it as both a sign of respect as well as protest. 

There are many images for someone kneeling which go back to the medieval times but in modern society many see it as a sign of respect. If the thinking it’s a sign of obedience or submission then maybe we also need to change that level of thinking ?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it shouldn’t matter what other cultures see when it’s the message that black people from all cultures have decided because they see it as both a sign of respect as well as protest.

There are many images for someone kneeling which go back to the medieval times but in modern society many see it as a sign of respect. If the thinking it’s a sign of obedience or submission then maybe we also need to change that level of thinking ?
		
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Again, it is for the people kneeling to decide whether or not that is an appropriate way to to get the message out there. 

The fact it is still bothering people shows the message still need to be put out there. Same as Lewis forcing F1 to do something. The outrage every week is enough to keep them doing it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m aware of the reasons why taking the knee was chosen, but most cultures would view kneeling as a subservient attitude, which isn’t equal, whereas linking arms is.

I have no problem at all with the message, but the imagery is at odds with that message
		
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Bit surprised you see taking the knee as subserviant being ex-military.

As a Junior Soldier were told it was for 2 reasons, resting while patrolling as you stayed alert and as a show of respect.

I do agree the meaning of it has been lost/hijacked recently though.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it shouldn’t matter what other cultures see when it’s the message that black people from all cultures have decided because they see it as both a sign of respect as well as protest. 

There are many images for someone kneeling which go back to the medieval times but in modern society many see it as a sign of respect. If the thinking it’s a sign of obedience or submission then maybe we also need to change that level of thinking ?
		
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Going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Historically people have knelt to their God(S), their masters, to plead for mercy, to beg etc etc, 
None of these denote equality

No one group of people should be above another, therefore the symbolism that represents this should be universally recognised as one of equality and not subservience.


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2020)

For me taking a knee symbolises the fact that I don’t stand above anyone due to things like their race. I’ve never actually looked up what it means but I’m happy with my interpretation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			For me taking a knee symbolises the fact that I don’t stand above anyone due to things like their race. I’ve never actually looked up what it means but I’m happy with my interpretation.
		
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That’s the key - as Phil says for centuries taking the knee was showing a sign of submission to authority but that’s what history shows not how modern society should see it. 

Paul has it right and where the kneeling came from with Kapernick speaking to someone in the military and being told it was a sign of respect - and that’s the message they have been trying to portray , we could all have our own opinions on what it portrays but we need to listen to the ones doing the protesting and understand their reasons


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2020)

IMO the UK BLM is a radical organisation that detracts from the core message.

Taking the knee should be a purely personal choice and no one should be badgered or intimidated one way or another.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the UK BLM is a radical organisation that detracts from the core message.

Taking the knee should be a purely personal choice and no one should be badgered or intimidated one way or another.
		
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Totally agree, but for that to happen people need to understand what taking the knee in this context means and not use their own interpretation.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, but for that to happen people need to understand what taking the knee in this context means and not use their own interpretation.
		
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I think the problem is that whatever the physical action is re highlighting rascism , it will be hijacked and interpreted by extremists from both ends of the spectrum. This is a matter that should be covered in schools from an early age similar to the “DARE” drugs programme.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the UK BLM is a radical organisation that detracts from the core message.

Taking the knee should be a purely personal choice and no one should be badgered or intimidated one way or another.
		
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I am with you. Having grown up in the late 70's and 80's I was fully aware of racism (and yes engaged in it myself to my shame), and saw it on the terraces, on the streets and even in the workplace. I think the Black Lives Matters has an important message but we've had the "Kick It Out" campaign for a while now and what has that realistically done to move the needle, either in the professional game or at grass root level. I think this BLM message and what happened at Millwall (and may happen there tonight) has become a political message and for that some of the impact, especially at sporting events has been lost. It is up to sporting bodies (imo) to get their house in order and can do more good far quicker by recognising those from different backgrounds (and crudely putting it for, the colour of their skin) and appointing them to key posts as long as they there on merit and not as a token gesture. Lets not forget it isn't that long ago in reality that the glass ceiling of women on boards of big companies or even in charge happened. Now, we are starting to get there slowly in terms of sexual equality and hopefully if sport can use coloured role models in power to show it can be done will send a more powerful and long term message than taking a knee will


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don’t want to be booed but happy to be bullied...hmm
		
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Gotta laugh at that. EVERYONE is being bullied into knee thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Gotta laugh at that. EVERYONE is being bullied into knee thing.
		
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Every player has a choice - not one of them is being bullied or forced into as you call it “the knee thing” - that knee thing is actually a protest against racism which expect everyone to be behind


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I am with you. Having grown up in the late 70's and 80's I was fully aware of racism (and yes engaged in it myself to my shame), and saw it on the terraces, on the streets and even in the workplace. I think the Black Lives Matters has an important message but we've had the "Kick It Out" campaign for a while now and what has that realistically done to move the needle, either in the professional game or at grass root level. I think this BLM message and what happened at Millwall (and may happen there tonight) has become a political message and for that some of the impact, especially at sporting events has been lost. It is up to sporting bodies (imo) to get their house in order and can do more good far quicker by recognising those from different backgrounds (and crudely putting it for, the colour of their skin) and appointing them to key posts as long as they there on merit and not as a token gesture. Lets not forget it isn't that long ago in reality that the glass ceiling of women on boards of big companies or even in charge happened. Now, we are starting to get there slowly in terms of sexual equality and hopefully if sport can use *coloured* role models in power to show it can be done will send a more powerful and long term message than taking a knee will
		
Click to expand...

It would prob be a good start to stop using that phrase 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-30999175


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## BiMGuy (Dec 8, 2020)

Kick it out did very little. 

Until players start to walk off the pitch and anyone found to be making racist comments is banned from all football for life then nothing will change.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 8, 2020)

Lets not forget how this all started. In the USA! They have massive problems over there about racism. Why are we concerned with their internal problems. It for them to sort out. We over here are not perfect, but should not let events in the USA concern us. 

8 years of Obama did nowt to sort it and everyone was up in arms over DT and the way he conducted things. Lets see if another 4 years of Democratic Party rule, then them putting a woman in charge will change things. Will it? Nope it will not !!! 

We should keep out house in order and not concern ourselves with the USA, except for trade of course. We will need some wine to cover the empty shelves from where the EU wine used to be for a start.


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## Swingalot (Dec 8, 2020)

Well the Millwall fans have won a morale victory tonight by applauding the revised anti racism pre game routine.

Trust me, im not one to say anything positive about that lot.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 8, 2020)

Swingalot said:



			Well the Millwall fans have won a morale victory tonight by applauding the revised anti racism pre game routine.

Trust me, im not one to say anything positive about that lot.
		
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Good, all players standing together linking arms is a far better display of solidarity than kneeling. 
As has been highlighted here, everyone has different views on taking a knee, for me and a lot of people it’s a subservient thing. (especially with a black player standing up above everyone doing a black power salute!)

BLM are associated with taking a knee and are very political. Politics has no place in football.


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## Swingalot (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Good, all players standing together linking arms is a far better display of solidarity than kneeling.
As has been highlighted here, everyone has different views on taking a knee, for me and a lot of people it’s a subservient thing. (especially with a black player standing up above everyone doing a black power salute!)

BLM are associated with taking a knee and are very political. Politics has no place in football.
		
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Agree 100%. Just a shame people who run football could not see this coming. Personally think they should do the new thing forever, a united front in the face of all discrimination, which is surely what we all want.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Lets not forget how this all started. In the USA! They have massive problems over there about racism. Why are we concerned with their internal problems. It for them to sort out. We over here are not perfect, but should not let events in the USA concern us.

8 years of Obama did nowt to sort it and everyone was up in arms over DT and the way he conducted things. Lets see if another 4 years of Democratic Party rule, then them putting a woman in charge will change things. Will it? Nope it will not !!!

We should keep out house in order and not concern ourselves with the USA, except for trade of course. We will need some wine to cover the empty shelves from where the EU wine used to be for a start.
		
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Racism isn’t confined to just the USA - it’s still an issue within the uk and as human beings we should be concerned with all levels of persecution regardless of what country it is in 



Fade and Die said:



			Good, all players standing together linking arms is a far better display of solidarity than kneeling.
As has been highlighted here, everyone has different views on taking a knee, for me and a lot of people it’s a subservient thing. (especially with a black player standing up above everyone doing a black power salute!)

BLM are associated with taking a knee and are very political. Politics has no place in football.
		
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The players also took a knee before kick off 

Hopefully people will start to change their views on why they are kneeling and why they decided that kneeling was going to be their preferred method


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## Swingalot (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Racism isn’t confined to just the USA - it’s still an issue within the uk and as human beings we should be concerned with all levels of persecution regardless of what country it is in



The players also took a knee before kick off

Hopefully people will start to change their views on why they are kneeling and why they decided that kneeling was going to be their preferred method
		
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Millwall players did not, so therefore no booing.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

Swingalot said:



			Agree 100%. Just a shame people who run football could not see this coming. Personally think they should do the new thing forever, a united front in the face of all discrimination, which is surely what we all want.
		
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And history has shown that when it comes to the FA and racism they are spineless.


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## Kellfire (Dec 8, 2020)

The 4th official in the PSG game has done something racist and the game has been suspended. Erm...


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			And history has shown that when it comes to the FA and racism they are spineless.
		
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To be fair though is it just the FA. Not sure what cricket has done any better as an example and you only need to look back at the USPGA and the issues coloured golfers had playing on tour. Is is sadly endemic in many facerts of society not just sport which is why my concern is the BLM campaign in football does little to make a real difference either in the professional game, at grass roots level or in society as a whole


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To be fair though is it just the FA. Not sure what cricket has done any better as an example and you only need to look back at the USPGA and the issues coloured golfers had playing on tour. Is is sadly endemic in many facerts of society not just sport which is why my concern is the BLM campaign in football does little to make a real difference either in the professional game, at grass roots level or in society as a whole
		
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It’s deffo not just the FA, but was in response to a comment re the FA.

As we speak there is disturbances in the PSG game  re a persons colour  ☹️


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## Beezerk (Dec 8, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Gotta laugh at that. EVERYONE is being bullied into knee thing.
		
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Sort of agree.
There's a whole thing now where you're made to feel guilty to take the knee or support it.
A person may agree massively with the cause and hate racism, but because they don't conform you're called out as a racist which in itself is extremely narrow minded, but that's the beast social media and modern journalism seem to have created.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To be fair though is it just the FA. Not sure what cricket has done any better as an example and you only need to look back at the USPGA and the issues *coloured* golfers had playing on tour. Is is sadly endemic in many facerts of society not just sport which is why my concern is the BLM campaign in football does little to make a real difference either in the professional game, at grass roots level or in society as a whole
		
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Seriously!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Sort of agree.
There's a whole thing now where you're made to feel guilty to take the knee or support it.
A person may agree massively with the cause and hate racism, but because they don't conform you're called out as a racist which in itself is extremely narrow minded, but that's the beast social media and modern journalism seem to have created.
		
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It’s the fine line between militants and relevant protests . 

When some of the F1 drivers didn’t take the knee - Lewis Hamilton wasn’t very happy until the drivers explained their position to him , fully behind the fight to racism but wanting to step away from the extreme areas of the fight. All about the communication - some players have just stood and bowed their head. 

Tonight though is looking at the moment to be a huge step with players walking off the pitch which is the right positive action to take and it’s needs to happen more and the authorities need to stand behind any player who walks off. 

It doesn’t help when UEFA etc just fine nations - there is no real deterrent to combat racism in many sports


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			And history has shown that when it comes to the FA and racism they are spineless.
		
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## Fade and Die (Dec 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Sort of agree.
There's a whole thing now where you're made to feel guilty to take the knee or support it.
A person may agree massively with the cause and hate racism, but *because they don't conform you're called out as a racist* which in itself is extremely narrow minded, but that's the beast social media and modern journalism seem to have created.
		
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Favorite tactic of a woke few on here too.


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## DanFST (Dec 8, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s the fine line between militants and relevant protests .

When some of the F1 drivers didn’t take the knee - Lewis Hamilton wasn’t very happy *until the drivers explained their position to him* , fully behind the fight to racism but wanting to step away from the extreme areas of the fight.
		
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That's the issue I have. Drivers kneeling does 0 for fighting racism. He has no right to take a morale high ground because someone else doesn't want to take a knee. I've been told I'm ignorant to racism because I don't support BLM on page 2. Maybe it's time we just shut up and learned and stopped with the token gestures. Spot on about the PSG game, things like this make a difference.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Good, all players standing together linking arms is a far better display of solidarity than kneeling.
As has been highlighted here, everyone has different views on taking a knee, for me and a lot of people it’s a subservient thing. (especially with a black player standing up above everyone doing a black power salute!)

BLM are associated with taking a knee and are very political. Politics has no place in football.
		
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2 seperate events at Millwall tonight, prior to kick off the Ref and QPR players took the knee, Millwall players just stood there in their positions, Romeo raised his fist.

The linking of arms was for a photo with the QPR players for Kick it Out.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			2 seperate events at Millwall tonight, prior to kick off the Ref and QPR players took the knee, Millwall players just stood there in their positions, Romeo raised his fist.

The linking of arms was for a photo with the QPR players for Kick it Out.
		
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I thought QPR had stopped the gesture earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted" .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I thought QPR had stopped the gesture earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted" .
		
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Took it tonight. 🤷‍♂️


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## Fade and Die (Dec 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Took it tonight. 🤷‍♂️
		
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Wonder if they will take it next week or if it’s just a token gesture?


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2020)

sounds like the QPR players made their point when they scored


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Wonder if they will take it next week or if it’s just a token gesture?
		
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If they did the group photo with the Millwall players for “Kick it out” I don’t see why they’d then need to do a token gesture.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's the issue I have. Drivers kneeling does 0 for fighting racism. He has no right to take a morale high ground because someone else doesn't want to take a knee. I've been told I'm ignorant to racism because I don't support BLM on page 2. Maybe it's time we just shut up and learned and stopped with the token gestures. Spot on about the PSG game, things like this make a difference.
		
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If we aren’t the people who are affected by the issue then it’s going to be very hard for use to suggest that it’s a token gesture - but any gesture or protest is worth it if it starts the conversations , heightens awareness and dismiss any fantasy ideals that racism is under control - racism and persecution of any kind will never be eroded but if sport can help in any way at all even by making people talk about it then it’s going to be worthwhile. 

People will be having these same discussions all over the country and hopefully it will go some way to changing some peoples attitudes


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## Beezerk (Dec 8, 2020)

fundy said:



			sounds like the QPR players made their point when they scored
		
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What did they do?


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			What did they do?
		
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Took the knee in front of the Millwall fans and raised their fists


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336416304551653376


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## Mudball (Dec 8, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Favorite tactic of a woke few on here too.
		
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FnD.. not taking this personally... but calling people ‘woke’ is the opposite end of the spectrum of calling people racist ... a convenient/lazy way of labelling someone who does not agree with your views. 

out of interest, how many here have been stopped and search for no apparent reason. Given the general assumption of demographic here, I am assuming not many. So we don’t know how it feels to be in constant fear of being pulled up. 
I had the pleasure of being stopped and searched under the great powers given by the then Home Secretary Ms May. My crime.. I look a bit different and I was late to work and so was running up the stairs at the railway station with a backpack. The fact that I was in a full business suit and ready for a client meeting was overlooked. The police rummaged thru my laptop bag and did not let me touch my mobile till they finished. They put it down to ‘routine search’. I always have sympathy with the Bobby who does this as he is doing his job. But I won’t dare run inside an airport.  In fact I would not even think of doing that in a  US. If I travel in the US, I need to be at the airport  3 hours before flights, since I will always be called for ‘secondary screen’, even if I fly business 

So when people use ‘woke’ labels on me, I flip the bird (but not to FnD)

Apologies for the rant and if I upset anyone


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Lets not forget how this all started. In the USA! They have massive problems over there about racism. Why are we concerned with their internal problems. It for them to sort out. We over here are not perfect, but should not let events in the USA concern us.

8 years of Obama did nowt to sort it and everyone was up in arms over DT and the way he conducted things. Lets see if another 4 years of Democratic Party rule, then them putting a woman in charge will change things. Will it? Nope it will not !!!

We should keep out house in order and not concern ourselves with the USA, except for trade of course. We will need some wine to cover the empty shelves from where the EU wine used to be for a start.
		
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This post demonstrates an unbelievable level of ignorance. Yes, the current impetus originated in the US, but it has struck a chord in Britain because we have significant racism here in this country. It’s a big problem, too many examples of institutional racism and casual acceptance of behaviour that should not be tolerated. 

The fact you can’t see this shows there is still a problem. You need to educate yourself.


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Lets not forget how this all started. In the USA! They have massive problems over there about racism. Why are we concerned with their internal problems. It for them to sort out. We over here are not perfect, but should not let events in the USA concern us.

8 years of Obama did nowt to sort it and everyone was up in arms over DT and the way he conducted things. Lets see if another 4 years of Democratic Party rule, then them putting a woman in charge will change things. Will it? Nope it will not !!!

We should keep out house in order and not concern ourselves with the USA, except for trade of course. We will need some wine to cover the empty shelves from where the EU wine used to be for a start.
		
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Once in a while i come across post on the forum that makes me rethink perspectives. If you think this is a US only problem then I can recommend a nearby specsavers. 
I am assuming you wanted to say the BLM movement started in US, racism is still a problem there and it needs to be addressed everywhere


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 9, 2020)

For those that struggle with seeing what this is all about, watch something like this:






Or this:






There’s massive prejudice in society for a multitude of reasons, but race is still a very big one.

Appointing people from different backgrounds and of different ethnicities is a good step as it provides role models, but what is really required is a way to stop the disadvantages that exist that prevent so many capable people of ever having the opportunity in the first place.

Maybe there does need to be some revised messaging of the take the knee initiative if the key message is still being glossed over or missed.

On balance, the Millwall fans booing has probably done quite a bit of good as it gets things back in the public eye again.


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## SteveJay (Dec 9, 2020)

It is still a political gesture that has no place in football. Kick it out was an initiative to address racism in football, but has now been hijacked by a political movement. Look at the fuss made about wearing poppies on shirts which was deemed a political gesture. The sooner it is ended the better. Annoys me that Sky and BBC include it in every highlight clip they show!!
And I am in no way racist, just don't see what this is now achieving for anyone.


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## bluewolf (Dec 9, 2020)

I thought political discussion was banned? Maybe all those who think it’s political should distance themselves from the debate. Wouldn’t want you breaking any rules and getting an infraction would we? 😉😉😉


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## DanFST (Dec 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I thought political discussion was banned? Maybe all those who think it’s political should distance themselves from the debate. Wouldn’t want you breaking any rules and getting an infraction would we? 😉😉😉
		
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Phil's already spoken about it. Great post


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## 2blue (Dec 9, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			It is still a political gesture that has no place in football. Kick it out was an initiative to address racism in football, but has now been hijacked by a political movement. Look at the fuss made about wearing poppies on shirts which was deemed a political gesture. The sooner it is ended the better. Annoys me that Sky and BBC include it in every highlight clip they show!!
And I am in no way racist, just don't see what this is now achieving for anyone.
		
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I refer you to #90 where Sunshine explains the situation very clearly......... I don't know how to break this to you gently but, if you don't get this, perhaps you are part of the problem.


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## Grant85 (Dec 9, 2020)

I don't have a problem with this at all, and it is correct that Kapernick took up the fight (at huge personal cost) by making a peaceful protest, that was hideously misrepresented by many in the states.

What I can live without is this now being a part of every single game of football to the point that it becomes routine and meaningless.

It should be done as part of a specific week or date, focussing on racial injustice and ideally should be included with meaningful action, community involvement, donation to certain groups or charities etc.

In my view, having it at the start of every game just waters down the protest to the point that people won't even notice it's happening or recognise what it's for.

It's a bit like wearing a poppy. People don't necessarily wear the poppy because they specifically want to commemorate the fallen, it's just something that's accepted and expected of them to the point that it's barely even recognised as an action of any consequence.


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## Rooter (Dec 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			But I won’t dare run inside an airport.  In fact I would not even think of doing that in a  US. If I travel in the US, I need to be at the airport  3 hours before flights, since I will always be called for ‘secondary screen’, even if I fly business
		
Click to expand...

I travelled with a colleague of Indian descent in the US a few years ago, we had a flight in, 3 internal flights, then home. After the first airport security stop, we then agreed I would wait for him at the exit of the airports
The way in which he was treated so differently to me was a real eye-opener. He said it was his 'normal' when in the US... It was an experience for me!


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## 2blue (Dec 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			I don't have a problem with this at all, and it is correct that Kapernick took up the fight (at huge personal cost) by making a peaceful protest, that was hideously misrepresented by many in the states.

What I can live without is this now being a part of every single game of football to the point that it becomes routine and meaningless.

It should be done as part of a specific week or date, focussing on racial injustice and ideally should be included with meaningful action, community involvement, donation to certain groups or charities etc.

In my view, having it at the start of every game just waters down the protest to the point that people won't even notice it's happening or recognise what it's for.

It's a bit like wearing a poppy. People don't necessarily wear the poppy because they specifically want to commemorate the fallen, *it's just something that's accepted and expected of them to the point that it's barely even recognised as an action of any consequence.*

Click to expand...

That's how it may be to you but certainly, it can be clearly seen that 'Taking the Knee' means an awful lot more to the black players & their team mates. I can only 'shake my head' in disbelief at the issue this is causing some people. Just treat it like when our players are 'forced' to sing the national anthem rather than just stand to it.....  simply mute/turn away/turn off......  it's that easy.


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2020)

Beyond Taking the knee, there are other things teams have adopted.. At the recent Australia v India T20, the Aussies came out in Indigenous Kit.  It was not till the early 70s that the indigenous people even got a right to vote.. and they still form a relative minority in main stream australia.  So all points to Aussie men and women cricket to make the guesture...   more details here >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/54915878


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			I don't have a problem with this at all, and it is correct that Kapernick took up the fight (at huge personal cost) by making a peaceful protest, that was hideously misrepresented by many in the states.

*What I can live without is this now being a part of every single game of football to the point that it becomes routine and meaningless.*

It should be done as part of a specific week or date, focussing on racial injustice and ideally should be included with meaningful action, community involvement, donation to certain groups or charities etc.

In my view, having it at the start of every game just waters down the protest to the point that people won't even notice it's happening or recognise what it's for.

It's a bit like wearing a poppy. People don't necessarily wear the poppy because they specifically want to commemorate the fallen, it's just something that's accepted and expected of them to the point that it's barely even recognised as an action of any consequence.
		
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The inconvenience this is causing you must be keeping you awake at night.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



View attachment 33890


Beyond Taking the knee, there are other things teams have adopted.. At the recent Australia v India T20, the Aussies came out in Indigenous Kit.  It was not till the early 70s that the indigenous people even got a right to vote.. and they still form a relative minority in main stream australia.  So all points to Aussie men and women cricket to make the guesture...   more details here >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/54915878

Click to expand...

As much as many in the UK seem to think that the Aussies are 'just like us' I am not so sure - or maybe we are... Certainly, and despite much effort by federal and state government; local authorities, and many Australians, especially since the 1967 referendum, there still seems to be a significant element of racial prejudice towards the indigenous Aboriginal community...we found sad, and at times uncomfortable, what we saw.


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The inconvenience this is causing you must be keeping you *awake* at night.

Click to expand...

is the past tense of awake.. a-woke?..  asking for a friend


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2020)

Rooter said:



			I travelled with a colleague of Indian descent in the US a few years ago, we had a flight in, 3 internal flights, then home. After the first airport security stop, we then agreed I would wait for him at the exit of the airports
The way in which he was treated so differently to me was a real eye-opener. He said it was his 'normal' when in the US... It was an experience for me!
		
Click to expand...

| see it plenty of times, so no surprises..  I had an Indian friend, he would deliberately skip the queue and head to secondary screening. The TSA would chase him away and ask him to go to regular queue..  once he would get to the head of the queue, they would 'randomly select' him for secondary screening.  The look on the TSA's face was worth the plane ticket  

Having said that, i (used to0 fly extensively in Europe... never had a similar incident (so far).


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## SteveJay (Dec 9, 2020)

2blue said:



			That's how it may be to you but certainly, it can be clearly seen that 'Taking the Knee' means an awful lot more to the black players & their team mates. I can only 'shake my head' in disbelief at the issue this is causing some people. Just treat it like when our players are 'forced' to sing the national anthem rather than just stand to it.....  simply mute/turn away/turn off......  it's that easy.
		
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What a ridiculous comparison


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## Grant85 (Dec 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The inconvenience this is causing you must be keeping you awake at night.

Click to expand...

Nothing to do with the inconvenience, just feel it's not the best use of the platform for an issue of such importance. 

Makes it very easy for people to 'play to the gallery' without actually effecting much change.


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Nothing to do with the inconvenience, just feel it's not the best use of the platform for an issue of such importance.

Makes it very easy for people to 'play to the gallery' without actually effecting much change.
		
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I partially agree to some of the sentiments. However even if 1 child watching the match turns around and ask his parents ‘why are they doing it?’ Or ‘what is that?’ then I would say it was worth the effort. 

We have years of kick it out, but not much has changed. The very visual of what happened at Millwall has sparked a debate. 

The final bit is that kids will replicate what they their stars do on telly. One of these days I won’t be surprised that they will do something like this in an U-15 match.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Nothing to do with the inconvenience, just feel it's not the best use of the platform for an issue of such importance.

Makes it very easy for people to 'play to the gallery' without actually effecting much change.
		
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Surely for keeping it in the public eye it’s THE BEST PLATFORM, every PL game is shown live on TV and it is shown before every game, viewing figures wise it’s publicity you couldn’t buy!


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## 2blue (Dec 9, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			What a ridiculous comparison
		
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Time you had a reality check......  anti-racism for most of us is an important issue to keep live.


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## SteveJay (Dec 9, 2020)

2blue said:



			Time you had a reality check......  anti-racism for most of us is an important issue to keep live.
		
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And i agree it is, via initiatives like Kick It Out, dealing with all racism, not just against a certain ethnic race. I don't think playing a national anthem before an international match, seen as the pinnacle of most players careers, representing their country, is comparable with a gesture that is losing public support and has all sorts of connotations being linked to a political movement and one that has developed violent tendencies.
But then again maybe you think defacing statues and burning the union jack acceptable. Have a look at the sentiment on social media indicating people are tired of having the knee thrust down their throats by the Tv and media and then maybe you can have the reality check.


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## 2blue (Dec 9, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			And i agree it is, via initiatives like Kick It Out, dealing with all racism, not just against a certain ethnic race. I don't think playing a national anthem before an international match, seen as the pinnacle of most players careers, representing their country, is comparable with a gesture that is losing public support and has all sorts of connotations being linked to a political movement and one that has developed violent tendencies.
But then again maybe you think defacing statues and burning the union jack acceptable. Have a look at the sentiment on social media indicating people are tired of *having the knee thrust down their throats* by the Tv and media and then maybe you can have the reality check.
		
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Mmmmmmmm..........


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## Old Skier (Dec 10, 2020)

I wonder what the reason was that sports people didn’t come out in solidarity with 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Colin Kaepernick

Over three years ago.

Football and footballers for years have had a platform to make a stand against racism/homophobia and many other issues.

Got to laugh when at some matches, ref blows whistle, and three or four players “forget” the obligatory kneel and think it’s the start of play.


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## sunshine (Dec 10, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			And i agree it is, via initiatives like Kick It Out, dealing with all racism, not just against a certain ethnic race. I don't think playing a national anthem before an international match, seen as the pinnacle of most players careers, representing their country, is comparable with a gesture that is losing public support and has all sorts of connotations being linked to a political movement and one that has developed violent tendencies.
But then again maybe you think defacing statues and burning the union jack acceptable. Have a look at the sentiment on social media indicating people are tired of having the knee thrust down their throats by the Tv and media and then maybe you can have the reality check.
		
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Firstly, you don't have to link this to a minor fringe political movement. I don't. There's always someone looking to jump on a bandwagon for their own benefit.

Secondly, the negative sentiment on social media reflects your sphere of influence. I can't see people tiring of this, but then none of my facebook friends are members of the EDL (not saying yours are).

Thirdly, "having the knee thrust down their throats" is probably the most inappropriate idiom imaginable, unless this was intended as a witty pun.


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## sunshine (Dec 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder what the reason was that sports people didn’t come out in solidarity with 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Colin Kaepernick

Over three years ago.

Football and footballers for years have had a platform to make a stand against racism/homophobia and many other issues.

Got to laugh when at some matches, ref blows whistle, and three or four players “forget” the obligatory kneel and think it’s the start of play.
		
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I suspect the reason was fear.

Fear of becoming a target for certain fans, rocking the boat and causing controversy, and ultimately losing lucrative sponsorship contracts.

90% of sports stars say nothing of any interest. They are too worried about negative PR and play it too safe. They have a short career with a small window when they are on top of their game so I understand why they don't want to rock the boat. It's a shame because when sports stars choose to use their voice it can be really powerful (e.g. Marcus Rashford recently).


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## Old Skier (Dec 10, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I suspect the reason was fear.

Fear of becoming a target for certain fans, rocking the boat and causing controversy, and ultimately losing lucrative sponsorship contracts.

90% of sports stars say nothing of any interest. They are too worried about negative PR and play it too safe. They have a short career with a small window when they are on top of their game so I understand why they don't want to rock the boat. It's a shame because when sports stars choose to use their voice it can be really powerful (e.g. Marcus Rashford recently).
		
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And I think “not taking the knee” is based on exactly this now.


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## Mudball (Dec 10, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			And i agree it is, via initiatives like Kick It Out, dealing with all racism, not just against a certain ethnic race. I don't think playing a national anthem before an international match, seen as the pinnacle of most players careers, representing their country, is comparable with a gesture that is losing public support and has all sorts of connotations being linked to a political movement and one that has developed violent tendencies.
But then again maybe you think defacing statues and burning the union jack acceptable. Have a look at the sentiment on social media indicating people are tired of having the knee thrust down their throats by the Tv and media and then maybe you can have the reality check.
		
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Again i understand some of the sentiments in ur post, but i see you have lumped a lot of things together into one movement..   So allow me to unpick some.  I dont pretend to know the answers, but these are my views.  I am sure there are other views out there and hence we can have a healthy debate

1) BLM = political movement...  not as it started.. There are always going to some idiot who does stupid things that tarnish everything else.  This is similar to saying 'Are all Brexiteers racist and Daily Mail readers?' No not at all - at least not the ones that i know and work with.  But the media choses to talk about what sells.  So dont paint all of them in the same colour

2) Defacing statues...  Where do you draw the line here.  I am not a fan of revising history, because i think we lose the lessons we need to learn from it by obfuscating it.  So, i will put defacing in two parts
  a) Memorials like the Cenotaph... i think morally this is wrong.  I dont know the legal view, but i am assuming this is a act of vandalism and should be punished (policemen here can confirm)
  b) Statues of old slave drivers... this is where it gets interesting.  Legally, it will be vandalism.  the bigger question is 'should we have a statue of a know slave owner'.  As mentioned i am not a revisionist, so i would say, if we have a statue, we should include the fact he was a slave owner and not just talk of the philanthropy he did. Let people know. To pressure test this point, in a few years, would we even consider a statue of Ralf Harris or Jimmy Savile??.. I doubt it.

3) Burning Flags... Again, i think this is morally unacceptable esp if you live in that country.  Legally, as you may know (in England) burning your own Union Jack is not a crime as Flag desecration is not defined in English Law.  If you burn the flag on the Cenotaph, then it is an act of vandalism.  If burning the flag upsets you, where do you draw the line..  Do you throw the remote at the TV when you see a picture like this









4) Social Media is full of' 'xx'...  As you know social media is driven by your choices and preferences (do watch Social Dilemma on Netflix), so I am not surprised that you may be seeing it being full of people that say they had enough.  This is a phenomenon called the 'social media echo chamber'... it just plays to whatever you like/dislike.   My social media is all about SpaceX & Mars exploration along with a healthy dose of flat earthers.


Finally,  the choice of '*having the knee thrust down their throats*'... here i must admit, you could not have chosen the worst set of words in the context of the conversation.

Sorry for the long post.. I did not want to respond in 1-2 lines, but hopefully this helps to separate the noise that is drowning the core issues around what we were discussing..

PS: Typing this in 1 go, so i am assuming there will be typos..


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## sunshine (Dec 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And I think “not taking the knee” is based on exactly this now.
		
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Maybe for some, but probably only a minority. I agree with Les Ferdinand's comment that it was becoming diluted, but it is clearly still very important for some people. They are human and most footballers aren't that insensitive.

Given what happened at Millwall and Paris in the last week there is renewed relevance to the gesture.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 10, 2020)

Just watch Politics Live and a bloke on there said that the fans booing is not against the racism thing it's just that it is being rammed down everyone's throats all the damn time. 

He also said that it happened at Colchester as well. So it's not just Millwall fans. Others are getting fed up with it all. Still, most players in the Prem league aren't white, so no wonder this is being dragged out.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would prob be a good start to stop using that phrase

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-30999175

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Why then is the term 'People of colour' acceptable?


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## Mudball (Dec 11, 2020)

Came across this clip and I found it interesting to the debate about racism in society (not just in sports)   I am going to try and find the second section where he defends Millwall. 
https://fb.watch/2iXH7346d1/


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why then is the term 'People of colour' acceptable?
		
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Who says it is acceptable?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....oachella-black-lives-matter-a8316561.html?amp


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I wonder what the reason was that sports people didn’t come out in solidarity with 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Colin Kaepernick

Over three years ago.

Football and footballers for years have had a platform to make a stand against racism/homophobia and many other issues.

Got to laugh when at some matches, ref blows whistle, and three or four players “forget” the obligatory kneel and think it’s the start of play.
		
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The issue with Kaepernick was that he did during the singing of the National Anthem and was immediately seized upon as unpatriotic and against ALL Americans by the media.

People, especially Sports Stars didn’t want to be seen as un-American.

Totally diferent situation to when it is taken over here.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who says it is acceptable?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-women-people-colour-racism-beyonce-coachella-black-lives-matter-a8316561.html?amp

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Many people use it and you know it.
https://www.theantiracisteducator.com/person-of-colour


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people use it and you know it.
https://www.theantiracisteducator.com/person-of-colour

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So are you ignoring the article I posted where someone says they don’t like to be referred to that way - is it up to white people to decide what is acceptable to call black people ? 

Or should we allow them to decide what they deem is acceptable or not - so if someone says they don’t like to be called “people of colour” , maybe we don’t use that the same with coloured.


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## Mudball (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So are you ignoring the article I posted where someone says they don’t like to be referred to that way - is it up to white people to decide what is acceptable to call black people ?

Or should we allow them to decide what they deem is acceptable or not - so if someone says they don’t like to be called “people of colour” , maybe we don’t use that the same with coloured.
		
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maybe i digress... but i have never felt the need to any call anyone in a collective noun by a skin colour.  The only exception is when you fill out a form which has an ethnicity question and when i attend a diversity awareness course.  To me John is in my team because of who he is rather than if he is white, black, pink, green..   I had a friend who was into the hip-hop scene in NY.  Some of the guys he would hang out with would refer to each other with the 'N-word'.. so while we were all paly, dare i use the same word.  IMO, for what it is worth, a lot of this is about context.  

i remember Prince Charles getting into hot water but was defended by his friend 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/sooty-defends-prince-charles-1343747.html


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So are you ignoring the article I posted where someone says they don’t like to be referred to that way - is it up to white people to decide what is acceptable to call black people ?

Or should we allow them to decide what they deem is acceptable or not - so if someone says they don’t like to be called “people of colour” , maybe we don’t use that the same with coloured.
		
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Does one swallow make a spring 🙄


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So are you ignoring the article I posted where someone says *they don’t like to be referred to that way* - is it up to white people to decide what is acceptable to call black people ?

Or should we allow *them to decide what they deem is acceptable or not* - so if someone says they don’t like to be called “people of colour” , maybe we don’t use that the same with coloured.
		
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Maybe we don't tar everyone with the same brush? Isn't that what all this is about.....

There is no collectives by skin colour no one size fits all approach. This is where it gets a bit mad and doesn't actually help. We are all just people, trying to get through each day until we die. 


(Ironically i've been told I can't use the tar expression as it's racist on twitter. It's not.)


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## 2blue (Dec 11, 2020)

Sadly for a Multi-cultural Nation, there are so, so many folks who, for whatever reason, just have not got a clue in so many areas.


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## Mudball (Dec 11, 2020)

Another one from James O’brian .. in between his other rants, he talks about BLM and the Marxist agenda 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1337380117610450946


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2020)

2blue said:



			Sadly for a Multi-cultural Nation, there are so, so many folks who, for whatever reason, just have not got a clue in so many areas.
		
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Would you say someone not liking multi-culturalism doesn't have a clue in these areas (whatever these areas are)


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## 4LEX (Dec 12, 2020)

All this over 2,000 of Millwall's best behaved season ticket holders. Millwall aren't even a well known racist club. The fans are more interested in caving your head in (or attacking you with a belt in my case), rather than racist comments. If that section of the fanbase is booing, I dread to think what will happen when you've got the usual 10,000 nutters they get in for big games.

It'll be the same in the midlands and up north at clubs like Wolves, Derby, Stoke, Leeds, Hull, Burnley etc. 

Time for football to move on and back a united campaign against discrimination


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you say someone not liking multi-culturalism doesn't have a clue in these areas (whatever these areas are)
		
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I can only suppose that would depend on the reason that specific person didn’t like multiculturalism. Can you give examples?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 12, 2020)

My feeling is that all terms used to describe people by skin colour are in themselves divisive  

“Black”,”White”  “People of Colour” etc etc are all labels that differentiate 

Why can’t we just be people 

The longer these language barriers exist, the longer it will take to get rid of the “us & them”


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2020)

[


PhilTheFragger said:



			My feeling is that all terms used to describe people by skin colour are in themselves divisive 

“Black”,”White”  “People of Colour” etc etc are all labels that differentiate

Why can’t we just be people

The longer these language barriers exist, the longer it will take to get rid of the “us & them”
		
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This, But Coach Carter sums it up perfectly when some people use then N word which is as offensive as it gets. But the same people are offended when anglo Saxon people and there equivalent coloured people use the same word. The education of what is and is not acceptable has a long way to go no matter what colour your skin.


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			[


This, But Coach Carter sums it up perfectly when some people use then N word which is as offensive as it gets. But the same people are offended when anglo Saxon people and there equivalent coloured people use the same word. The education of what is and is not acceptable has a long way to go no matter what colour your skin.
		
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So you, a middle class white man, wants to help decide what black people can call each other?

I think that’s a large part of the problem.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So you, a middle class white man, wants to help decide what black people can call each other?

I think that’s a large part of the problem.
		
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No what he is saying is that some black people are using the N word in common parlance thus perpetuating the use of that word.
It is a word that needs to die out and the people that continue to use it are not helping


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			No what he is saying is that some black people are using the N word in common parlance thus perpetuating the use of that word.
It is a word that needs to die out and the people that continue to use it are not helping
		
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Let me draw an analogy with another word that in some hands in seen as an insult and in others as merely a descriptor - in the LGBT community, the word queer is used openly and isn’t an insult. Yet if a homophobe used that word aggressively it’s clearly an insult. 

Do you feel that no one in the LGBT community should refer to themselves as queer? 

Genuine question as I feel there are huge parallels. 

As to the overarching point, I simply disagree with you and tash but I see why you feel the way you do.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Let me draw an analogy with another word that in some hands in seen as an insult and in others as merely a descriptor - in the LGBT community, the word queer is used openly and isn’t an insult. Yet if a homophobe used that word aggressively it’s clearly an insult. 

Do you feel that no one in the LGBT community should refer to themselves as queer? 

Genuine question as I feel there are huge parallels. 

As to the overarching point, I simply disagree with you and tash but I see why you feel the way you do.
		
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Good point, queer means different or odd, the same principle applies, it highlights the differences between people , it says that I’m not the same as you, 

Bit of a minefield isn’t it

I’m a middle aged white male, but I’m just Phil, you might be a gay black male, but you’re just Michael 

It’s these labels that are creating barriers, people are just people getting by the best they can


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I can only suppose that would depend on the reason that specific person didn’t like multiculturalism. Can you give examples?
		
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For example: they may feel it creates division and restricts integration.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 12, 2020)

2blue said:



			Sadly for a Multi-cultural Nation, there are so, so many folks who, for whatever reason, just have not got a clue in so many areas.
		
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Are we a multi-cultural nation, or a nation of multiple cultures?  Whilst we have many cultures in this country, many are more than happy to live in their own enclaves without mixing with other cultures.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			No what he is saying is that some black people are using the N word in common parlance thus perpetuating the use of that word.
It is a word that needs to die out and the people that continue to use it are not helping
		
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Is the correct answer. It is not acceptable for anyone to say it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good point, queer means different or odd, the same principle applies, it highlights the differences between people , it says that I’m not the same as you,

Bit of a minefield isn’t it

I’m a middle aged white male, but I’m just Phil, *you might be a gay black male, but you’re just Michael*

It’s these labels that are creating barriers, people are just people getting by the best they can
		
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When I went Through the adoption process I asked A guy who I knew from Zimbabwe if he is black or coloured., what do I call you. He said “ Bing”. That’s his actual name. 👍


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## Kellfire (Dec 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Is the correct answer. It is not acceptable for anyone to say it.
		
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Is the incorrect answer. It’s not for you to decide what the black community call each other, you can only decide for yourself not to use terms that will insult them.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			For example: they may feel it creates division and restricts integration.
		
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And who would that person believe is at fault for the division and lack of integration?


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Is the incorrect answer. It’s not for you to decide what the black community call each other, you can only decide for yourself not to use terms that will insult them.
		
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Mmm, on the one hand I'll agree with you but if the black community use it amongst themselves but won't 'allow' others, that's hypocritical/discriminatory. You can't have it both ways. But that's where semantics come in. We're splitting hairs. In reality, its about intonation. My sister, black(adopted) Fijian often calls me white honky/white n****r. There isn't a single shred of malice in it. And I, in response, occasionally respond in kind, depending on the company we're in - its about context and audience.

Taking the knee; no I won't. Not now, not ever. I realise its about recognising what has gone before, or that's at least the official version, but its beyond that now, and its just a form of inverted racism. If you struggle with that, read up on inverted snobbery.

And to quote my (black) sister who's experienced it all her life, even during the last election from Farage's minions, as have I as we've moved around the world, what a crock of birdcage droppings. History paints a lousy picture, and our own experiences down the years reflect that but its about now. Its about how we all behave now. The respect we give to each other. We all know what went before, and we all know it was appalling in the extreme. But that is the history we recognise and learn from. Practicing the donning of sackcloth and ashes serves no purpose, and in reality rubbing someone's nose in it just causes resentment.

Will I accept taking the knee? No, not now, not ever. As for the ignorant black power salute that some use...... that just shows their ignorance or, perhaps more worryingly, their racism towards whites. However, I will hold hands with anyone, give a leg up to anyone and defend anyone - IRRESPECTIVE of colour, race, religious creed or sexual orientation.

And if you want to take a pop at me for not wanting to take the knee, for most of you I've been where you only think is awful. It is far worse than you can imagine. The daily walk to school etc - seriously, you haven't got a clue. Its how you behave NOW!!!! Defeat it with a smile and a handshake, not a confrontational taking of the knee. Everyone accepts a smile and most will accept a handshake. Does everyone accept taking the knee? No.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, on the one hand I'll agree with you but if the black community use it amongst themselves but won't 'allow' others, that's hypocritical/discriminatory. You can't have it both ways. But that's where semantics come in. We're splitting hairs. In reality, its about intonation. My sister, black(adopted) Fijian often calls me white honky/white n****r. There isn't a single shred of malice in it. And I, in response, occasionally respond in kind, depending on the company we're in - its about context and audience.

Taking the knee; no I won't. Not now, not ever. I realise its about recognising what has gone before, or that's at least the official version, but its beyond that now, and its just a form of inverted racism. If you struggle with that, read up on inverted snobbery.

And to quote my (black) sister who's experienced it all her life, even during the last election from Farage's minions, as have I as we've moved around the world, what a crock of birdcage droppings. History paints a lousy picture, and our own experiences down the years reflect that but its about now. Its about how we all behave now. The respect we give to each other. We all know what went before, and we all know it was appalling in the extreme. But that is the history we recognise and learn from. Practicing the donning of sackcloth and ashes serves no purpose, and in reality rubbing someone's nose in it just causes resentment.

Will I accept taking the knee? No, not now, not ever. As for the ignorant black power salute that some use...... that just shows their ignorance or, perhaps more worryingly, their racism towards whites. However, I will hold hands with anyone, give a leg up to anyone and defend anyone - IRRESPECTIVE of colour, race, religious creed or sexual orientation.

And if you want to take a pop at me for not wanting to take the knee, for most of you I've been where you only think is awful. It is far worse than you can imagine. The daily walk to school etc - seriously, you haven't got a clue. Its how you behave NOW!!!! Defeat it with a smile and a handshake, not a confrontational taking of the knee. Everyone accepts a smile and most will accept a handshake. Does everyone accept taking the knee? No.
		
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Not sure I 100% follow what you’ve written, but if I take it a face value then I’m not sure I can disagree more. Each to their own though. 

Whatever I think of the taking of the knee, it’s not really up to me to judge it. If the group in question choose that gesture to peacefully demonstrate then I could either support it or ignore it. Choosing to react to it negatively is a strange way for anyone to say that they support the aim but not the method. 

I too have experienced abuse, however mine was xenophobic rather than racist. My Mother and Grandparents experienced far more, both physical and verbal. I don’t feel the need to make an issue if it now as it no longer happens, but I’ll never forget it.


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## Mudball (Dec 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Are we a multi-cultural nation, or a nation of multiple cultures?  Whilst we have many cultures in this country, many are more than happy to live in their own enclaves without mixing with other cultures.
		
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I am all for integration.  As someone who has lived around the world, my observation is that this is a basic human nature to find company and safety in numbers of similar kinds . Unfortunately it soon be a ‘ghetto’. If you go to Sydney, you will see all the poms staying together. The Italian will have theirs and so on.. same in this country. Same in the US.


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not sure I 100% follow what you’ve written, but if I take it a face value then I’m not sure I can disagree more. Each to their own though.

Whatever I think of the taking of the knee, it’s not really up to me to judge it. If the group in question choose that gesture to peacefully demonstrate then I could either support it or ignore it. Choosing to react to it negatively is a strange way for anyone to say that they support the aim but not the method.

I too have experienced abuse, however mine was xenophobic rather than racist. My Mother and Grandparents experienced far more, both physical and verbal. I don’t feel the need to make an issue if it now as it no longer happens, but I’ll never forget it.
		
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To quote me, "However, I will hold hands with anyone, give a leg up to anyone and defend anyone - IRRESPECTIVE of colour, race, religious creed or sexual orientation.

What part couldn't you disagree with more? Do you disagree with me holding hands with anyone, of giving anyone a leg up and defending anyone, irrespective of their colour, race, creed or sexual orientation? You couldn't disagree more with me wanting to do that? You don't want me to stand with anyone, help anyone or defend anyone? Really?

I'll be honest here, I can't follow what you've written either. Do you disagree with me not willing to take the knee? Who's judging now?

I actually feel we should all stand *together* "holding hands." I feel no one should kneel.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			To quote me, "However, I will hold hands with anyone, give a leg up to anyone and defend anyone - IRRESPECTIVE of colour, race, religious creed or sexual orientation.

What part couldn't you disagree with more? Do you disagree with me holding hands with anyone, of giving anyone a leg up and defending anyone, irrespective of their colour, race, creed or sexual orientation? You couldn't disagree more with me wanting to do that? You don't want me to stand with anyone, help anyone or defend anyone? Really?

I'll be honest here, I can't follow what you've written either. Do you disagree with me not willing to take the knee? Who's judging now?

I actually feel we should all stand *together* "holding hands." I feel no one should kneel.
		
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I wasn’t intending to cause offence. I just struggled to follow your thought process completely. Could just as easily have been my issue as yours. 

What I disagree with is the almost visceral reaction to the gesture. I’m absolutely sure you agree with the aim. I just really don’t understand the reaction to the taking of one knee. As peaceful protests go, it’s almost entirely inoffensive. I see it more as a gesture of request. It’s one knee. Not both. I don’t see it as subservient. 

In the end, it doesn’t really matter what we think it’s origin is. It’s just a 10s gesture. Agree with it, ignore it or disagree with it, but to boo it seems a bit excessive without an underlying reason.


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## Ssshank (Dec 12, 2020)

Embarrassing is what it is.

You should not apologise for the actions of others regardless of your race unless you yourself act or think in such a way. 

While we are on the subject, we should dismantle the colosseum for all the atrocities the Romans caused.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am all for integration.  As someone who has lived around the world, my observation is that this is a basic human nature to find company and safety in numbers of similar kinds . Unfortunately it soon be a ‘ghetto’. If you go to Sydney, you will see all the poms staying together. The Italian will have theirs and so on.. same in this country. Same in the US.
		
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Yes unfortunately Multiculturalism has given us nothing but division in society.


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## 2blue (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I wasn’t intending to cause offence. I just struggled to follow your thought process completely. Could just as easily have been my issue as yours.

*What I disagree with is the almost visceral reaction to the gesture.* I’m absolutely sure you agree with the aim. *I just really don’t understand the reaction to the taking of one knee. As peaceful protests go, it’s almost entirely inoffensive.* I see it more as a gesture of request. It’s one knee. Not both. I don’t see it as subservient.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter what we think it’s origin is. It’s just a 10s gesture. Agree with it, ignore it or disagree with it, but to boo it seems a bit excessive without an underlying reason.
		
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Couldn't agree more. OK folks .......  so give us 10sec gesture that would be more powerful?


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## Mudball (Dec 12, 2020)

At footy today, was speaking to another dad who is black.  Among other things, we were catching up...  I was describing to him the view that BLM is a political and marxist moment..   We both had a  belly laugh and his responses would get me multiple infraction.  He talked about the lack of understanding and more importantly the acknowledgement of racism in the UK.  Every one thinks this is an American problem but look away when it is raised here..


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## Mudball (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes unfortunately Multiculturalism has given us *nothing *but division in society.
		
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Two sided coin..  divisions have been exploited by those who want to. Equally we have gained as a society too - culture, food, language, new perspectives..


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## 2blue (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes unfortunately Multiculturalism has given us nothing but division in society.
		
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I can well understand how that would apply in Hornchurch but for me moving from SW Durham to Leeds 50 years ago it's been nothing but enriching.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes unfortunately Multiculturalism has given us *nothing* but division in society.
		
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Nonsense - many good things come out of having different cultures within society


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			And who would that person believe is at fault for the division and lack of integration?
		
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I guess they would suggest it's whoever divides or differentiates.

Returning to my original question to @2blue:.  Would you say someone not liking multi-culturealism doesn't have a clue in these areas (whatever these areas are)


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes unfortunately Multiculturalism has given us nothing but division in society.
		
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Would that just be modern multiculturalism or should we include the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain in the 5th century?


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess they would suggest it's whoever divides or differentiates
		
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😂 Cool, and would this person suggest that one group does this more than another group?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nonsense - many good things come out of having different cultures within society
		
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Any bad ones?


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 12, 2020)

I see that A J isn't going to take the knee before his fight tonight


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 12, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			I see that A J isn't going to take the knee before his fight tonight
		
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As long as he doesn't take one in the fight


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			I see that A J isn't going to take the knee before his fight tonight
		
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What? But that’s scandalous! I thought everyone was being bullied into doing it?


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## Fade and Die (Dec 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Two sided coin..  divisions have been exploited by those who want to. Equally we have gained as a society too - culture, food, language, new perspectives..
		
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2blue said:



			I can well understand how that would apply in Hornchurch but for me moving from SW Durham to Leeds 50 years ago it's been nothing but enriching.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Nonsense - many good things come out of having different cultures within society
		
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I get the food bit but what else do you think multiculturalism has bought to Britain? I’ve never seen real Integration anywhere (except maybe when I was a kid on the isle of dogs and we were all just “islanders”)
I worry that multiculturalism excludes me a white middle aged man... Whenever I hear politicians saying they want more multiculturalism I think what they really mean is they want less me!


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## fundy (Dec 12, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			I see that A J isn't going to take the knee before his fight tonight
		
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hell be taking it in round 3 or 4 when Pulev lands flush on his jaw hopefully


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			😂 Cool, and would this person suggest that one group does this more than another group?
		
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They may suggest that but on the other hand they may not.  They may even take the view that who does it the most or least is not what creates the division and lack of integration.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I get the food bit but what else do you think multiculturalism has bought to Britain? I’ve never seen real Integration anywhere (except maybe when I was a kid on the isle of dogs and we were all just “islanders”)
I worry that multiculturalism excludes me a white middle aged man... Whenever I hear politicians saying they want more multiculturalism I think what they really mean is they want less me!
		
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Why do you assume that multiculturalism refers to non white? My family are German. I’m a product of multiculturalism. I’m white, blue eyed. (Formerly) blonde haired...


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They may suggest that but on the other hand they may not.  They may even take the view that who does it the most or least is not what creates the division and lack of integration.
		
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So this person possibly believes that the group most responsible for division and differentiation do not create the division and lack of integration?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Why do you assume that multiculturalism refers to non white? My family are German. I’m a product of multiculturalism. I’m white, blue eyed. (Formerly) blonde haired...
		
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What would you suggest makes your German family a different culture.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I get the food bit but what else do you think multiculturalism has bought to Britain? I’ve never seen real Integration anywhere (except maybe when I was a kid on the isle of dogs and we were all just “islanders”)
I worry that multiculturalism excludes me a white middle aged man... Whenever I hear politicians saying they want more multiculturalism I think what they really mean is they want less me!
		
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Surely multi culture is more than just someone’s skin colour being different ? Do you not mix with from all different cultures - learn their ways and see if it can improve your own life. Some cultures have stronger work ethics , some are more creative , some are more disciplined- for centuries the UK has been populated by many different cultures.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What would you suggest makes your German family a different culture.
		
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Because they’re German, therefore have a different culture. It may not be polar opposite of British culture, but it is different.
The food, style, history, storytelling, music, dance etc are different.


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## Mudball (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Any bad ones?
		
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I think i agreed to it by saying it is two sided coin in response to @Fade and Die's post..   A post that looks at both sides (but in a workplace situation) 
https://www.hult.edu/blog/benefits-challenges-cultural-diversity-workplace/ 



Fade and Die said:



			I get the food bit but what else do you think multiculturalism has bought to Britain? I’ve never seen real Integration anywhere (except maybe when I was a kid on the isle of dogs and we were all just “islanders”)
I worry that multiculturalism excludes me a white middle aged man... Whenever I hear politicians saying they want more multiculturalism I think what they really mean is *they want less me*!
		
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I completely understand this and this berates me... I have very low threshold for any politicians, as they only care about themselves and pander to the gallery..  To me, multiculturaism is not about me v/s you.. it is about co-existing.  it is about removing barriers for any one who is being disadvantaged due to not being native.  An Englishman in Spain or France should have the same access to services as a native person provided they are a good citizen and irrespective if they are a white & male (or after January). Unfortunately as we try and dismantle generation of institutional systems, there can be a trend to be try and overcompensate.   

Referring to my conversation with my black friend and BLM movement earlier today, he had the same views, it was about taking from one group and giving to another. It is not about equality & wealth re-distribution (aka Communist/Marxist ideology)... its more about equity and have a level playing field


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2020)

Well, the world is multicultural so you can't avoid it. The variety this brings in perspective and experience has to be positive.

But...racists (who can be found in all groups)  refuse to accept it, looney lefties seem to think it means self loathing and some countries lock their doors altogether.   

The world will continue to move on regardless of the above.  Kneeling before sports events will change little on its own, but it keeps the issue prominent. So therefore has value.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			So this person possibly believes that the group most responsible for division and differentiation do not create the division and lack of integration?
		
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Im not sure why you think that but there are always possibilities, as you suggest.


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## 2blue (Dec 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely multi culture is more than just someone’s skin colour being different ? Do you not mix with from all different cultures - learn their ways and see if it can improve your own life. Some cultures have stronger work ethics , some are more creative , some are more disciplined- *for centuries the UK has been populated by many different cultures*.
		
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Yeah....  & 1/2 a century ago I moved down to Yorkshire.....  a real culture shock.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, on the one hand I'll agree with you but if the black community use it amongst themselves but won't 'allow' others, that's hypocritical/discriminatory. You can't have it both ways. But that's where semantics come in. We're splitting hairs. In reality, its about intonation. My sister, black(adopted) Fijian often calls me white honky/white n****r. There isn't a single shred of malice in it. And I, in response, occasionally respond in kind, depending on the company we're in - its about context and audience.

Taking the knee; no I won't. Not now, not ever. I realise its about recognising what has gone before, or that's at least the official version, but its beyond that now, and its just a form of inverted racism. If you struggle with that, read up on inverted snobbery.

And to quote my (black) sister who's experienced it all her life, even during the last election from Farage's minions, as have I as we've moved around the world, what a crock of birdcage droppings. History paints a lousy picture, and our own experiences down the years reflect that but its about now. Its about how we all behave now. The respect we give to each other. We all know what went before, and we all know it was appalling in the extreme. But that is the history we recognise and learn from. Practicing the donning of sackcloth and ashes serves no purpose, and in reality rubbing someone's nose in it just causes resentment.

Will I accept taking the knee? No, not now, not ever. As for the ignorant black power salute that some use...... that just shows their ignorance or, perhaps more worryingly, their racism towards whites. However, I will hold hands with anyone, give a leg up to anyone and defend anyone - IRRESPECTIVE of colour, race, religious creed or sexual orientation.

And if you want to take a pop at me for not wanting to take the knee, for most of you I've been where you only think is awful. It is far worse than you can imagine. The daily walk to school etc - seriously, you haven't got a clue. Its how you behave NOW!!!! Defeat it with a smile and a handshake, not a confrontational taking of the knee. Everyone accepts a smile and most will accept a handshake. Does everyone accept taking the knee? No.
		
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You know I read this and thought I agree with 99.9% of this. The spelling is probably better than mine. 👍 My grief re discussing the subject on this forum is people have agendas. They don’t like certain folk on here through there previous posts on other subjects and they wait to pounce. Eg, I quote a person from Africa which is then turned to me/a middle class white mans saying what is right and wrong. And yet these people are on here to educate and enlighten us. Really.
What I found interesting was Hobbits comments re context and audience. Ave heard this from a gay mixed race jamacan. His words, not mine but am I now wrong for quoting them as a middle class retired anglo Saxon man. Not if we are to learn and educate. Maybe it’s all about “ context and audience”.
Slightly going off topic but to get to a point, I read a fantastic story about a guy Waldemar Haffkine. He invented the cholera and typhoid vaccines. Bottom line the British empire were absolute tossers towards him. But he was a genius. Am sure he is not the only one to suffer at the hands of the British empire. But as Hobbit says. Do we spend a lifetime apologising or learning and educating the people of today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-55050012


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

IanM said:



			Well, the world is multicultural so you can't avoid it. The variety this brings in perspective and experience has to be positive.

But...racists (who can be found in all groups)  refuse to accept it, looney lefties seem to think it means self loathing and some countries lock their doors altogether.  

The world will continue to move on regardless of the above.  Kneeling before sports events will change little on its own, but it keeps the issue prominent. So therefore has value.
		
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If you take the World as a whole it is multicultural but many many countries are not to a large extent or ever look like being so.  

There is no problem where someone has a particular religion or prefers a particular dress or food. The problems occur where people prefer not to mix with others outside their culture, prefer to live in an area dominated by their culture, make their homes in another country but make little effort to speak the language.  And before anyone mentions it, this applies every bit to British people.


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2020)

Of course that's right Sock'.

I've worked all over the World..and I'm sad to say, there are places much worse than UK is generally.   But you can find some right nasties in the UK too... and not all of them fit the generally accepted stereotype.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I think i agreed to it by saying it is two sided coin in response to @Fade and Die's post..   A post that looks at both sides (but in a workplace situation)
https://www.hult.edu/blog/benefits-challenges-cultural-diversity-workplace/



I completely understand this and this berates me... I have very low threshold for any politicians, as they only care about themselves and pander to the gallery..  *To me, multiculturaism is not about me v/s you.. it is about co-existing.*  it is about removing barriers for any one who is being disadvantaged due to not being native.  An Englishman in Spain or France should have the same access to services as a native person provided they are a good citizen and irrespective if they are a white & male (or after January). Unfortunately as we try and dismantle generation of institutional systems, there can be a trend to be try and overcompensate.

Referring to my conversation with my black friend and BLM movement earlier today, he had the same views, it was about taking from one group and giving to another. It is not about equality & wealth re-distribution (aka Communist/Marxist ideology)... its more about equity and have a level playing field
		
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If it worked like that then no one could surely have any problem with it, but unfortunately it doesn’t, Multiculturalism seems like one way traffic, it seems like every other Cultures in this country should be celebrated (nothing wrong with that) but seems our own Culture is racists bigots and slave traders, responsible for all the world’s problems and we should be permanently ashamed of it! 



Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely multi culture is more than just someone’s skin colour being different ?
		
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Phil I’m not sure you understand what’s being discussed here. It’s culture not race. I’ve never had a problem with the colour of anyone skin. Ever.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you take the World as a whole it is multicultural but many many countries are not to a large extent or ever look like being so.

There is no problem where someone has a particular religion or prefers a particular dress or food. The problems occur where people prefer not to mix with others outside their culture, prefer to live in an area dominated by their culture, make their homes in another country but make little effort to speak the language.  And before anyone mentions it, this applies every bit to British people.
		
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we actually agree on this. We may not agree 100% on the cause though.

My sister lives in Spain. She was adamant that she wanted to move to a multicultural area. She moved to a place called Ayamonte on the southern coast. It’s a holiday resort for rich Madridians (sp😂). Her neighbours are mainly Spanish, but also German, Scandi, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern. She’s now fluent in 4 languages and absolutely loves her new hometown. She worked incredibly hard, but what made it easier was the acceptance she had from her neighbours.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Because they’re German, therefore have a different culture. It may not be polar opposite of British culture, but it is different.
The food, style, history, storytelling, music, dance etc are different.
		
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Really.  I have spent a lot of time in Germany and find the differences miniscule.  As a matter of fact I find Germans just about as close as you get to British other that the obvious commonwealth countries.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really.  I have spent a lot of time in Germany and find the differences miniscule.  As a matter of fact I find Germans just about as close as you get to British other that the obvious commonwealth countries.
		
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I would very politely suggest that what you’ve experienced is a result of multiculturalism. German culture has some significant differences. They all love David bloody Hasselhoff!

Also, I wish you’d been around when the kids on the estate found out my family was German. Trust me, they politely explained all the differences.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			we actually agree on this. We may not agree 100% on the cause though.

My sister lives in Spain. She was adamant that she wanted to move to a multicultural area. She moved to a place called Ayamonte on the southern coast. It’s a holiday resort for rich Madridians (sp😂). Her neighbours are mainly Spanish, but also German, Scandi, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern. She’s now fluent in 4 languages and absolutely loves her new hometown. She worked incredibly hard, but what made it easier was the acceptance she had from her neighbours.
		
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That's great, she's integrated and made the effort to fit alongside people from other countries.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's great, she's integrated and made the effort to fit alongside people from other countries.
		
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I think you may have missed some context there 😉


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## Fade and Die (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			we actually agree on this. We may not agree 100% on the cause though.

My sister lives in Spain. She was adamant that she wanted to move to a multicultural area. She moved to a place called Ayamonte on the southern coast. It’s a holiday resort for rich Madridians (sp😂). Her neighbours are mainly Spanish, but also German, Scandi, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern. She’s now fluent in 4 languages and absolutely loves her new hometown. She worked incredibly hard, but what made it easier was the acceptance she had from her neighbours.
		
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Where your sis is sounds great, it sounds that everyone has embraced the local culture and not clung on to there own to the exclusion of others.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Where your sis is sounds great, it sounds that everyone has embraced the local culture and not clung on to there own to the exclusion of others.
		
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Yes, exactly. Especially the locals. I’ve not been yet but my parents have and they were made to feel like family in the local bars/restaurants.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			If it worked like that then no one could surely have any problem with it, but unfortunately it doesn’t, Multiculturalism seems like one way traffic, it seems like every other Cultures in this country should be celebrated (nothing wrong with that) but seems our own Culture is racists bigots and slave traders, responsible for all the world’s problems and we should be permanently ashamed of it!



Phil I’m not sure you understand what’s being discussed here. It’s culture not race. I’ve never had a problem with the colour of anyone skin. Ever.
		
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Fade and Die said:



			I get the food bit but what else do you think multiculturalism has bought to Britain? I’ve never seen real Integration anywhere (except maybe when I was a kid on the isle of dogs and we were all just “islanders”)
I worry that multiculturalism excludes me a *white middle aged man*... Whenever I hear politicians saying they want more multiculturalism I think what they really mean is they want less me!
		
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This is what i was responding too ? You didn’t say “English middle class Male” - which would suggest culture - you mentioned your skin colour


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I would very politely suggest that what you’ve experienced is a result of multiculturalism. German culture has some significant differences. They all love David bloody Hasselhoff!

Also, I wish you’d been around when the kids on the estate found out my family was German. Trust me, they politely explained all the differences.
		
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I went to school not long after the War (not WW1) and remember the anti German feelings of the time.  I had a punch up with a bully who was intimidating a friend of mine who had a German Mother, I didn't come out of it well though.

The differences in Germany were quite small, the language being one but it's the nearest to English due to our common Anglo Saxon ancestors.    I love the country and have some of my best friends there.

They also like Monty Python and Mr Bean .


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## Mudball (Dec 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			If it worked like that then no one could surely have any problem with it, but unfortunately it doesn’t, Multiculturalism seems like one way traffic, it seems like every other Cultures in this country should be celebrated (nothing wrong with that) but seems our own Culture is racists bigots and slave traders, *responsible for all the world’s problems and we should be permanently ashamed of it*!

Phil I’m not sure you understand what’s being discussed here. It’s culture not race. I’ve never had a problem with the colour of anyone skin. Ever.
		
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1) I dont think anyone is saying you should not celebrate all things British.. there is plenty to celebrate.  Those who choose to live here, should abide by its customs and should be able to enrich it,  I would not mind if someone brings some home made samosas for Christmas lunch  (thats because i am a glutton)

2) Britian is not responsible for ALL current problems... but it cant deny its role in its colonies. It is similar to other colonial powers - french, german, portugese etc.   I think i read a story about the grandson of General Dyer or Radcliffe visited the place where General Dyer oversaw the massacre of unarmed indians and apologsed.. similarly i think there was a documentary of the grand daugther of one of the a high ranking British official who was in power during the Bengal famine visiting Bengal.  She had never know what her grandfather's role but broke down when she saw it firt hand. She met some of the survivors and apologies but was given a hug..   The dicotomy comes when the Canterbury Archbishop said he was ashmed of what happened at Jallianwalla but David Cameron refused to apologied. 

I dont think an average Indian expects an average Brit to apologise - but they do find it inexcusable/hilarious when a Brit says 'look at the benefits that the Raj got to India - english education, railway, civil service etc.'


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think you may have missed some context there 😉
		
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With respect I think you have.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Can I just say, having not been on the forum a lot recently, I’m loving how we can discuss such an emotive subject with humour and general good nature. It makes a refreshing change from previous versions 👍


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			With respect I think you have.
		
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Agree to disagree?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Agree to disagree?
		
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I'll ask my friend.


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2020)

If, and it a big if, this is to carry on then I think there needs to be a new gesture. The taking of the knee has too many connotations with the BLM marches which were clearly infiltrated by anarchists. It’s not racist to not want to support that kind of behaviour.
I would go further and say that I really don’t think it’s helping the equality cause.
I don’t think Sky are helping either. The coverage is so OTT now it’s unwatchable. I think they only covered the Millwall QPR game to see if Millwall fans booed. The pre match and post match discussion was all who knelt and who didn’t. Sky Sports News even ran the highlights of players kneeling at matches around the country. Whilst any right minded person understands the importance of dealing with racism, it’s not what customers are paying for and will only antagonise people against the cause.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 12, 2020)

Sweep said:



			If, and it a big if, this is to carry on then I think there needs to be a new gesture. The taking of the knee has too many connotations with the BLM marches which were clearly infiltrated by anarchists. It’s not racist to not want to support that kind of behaviour.
I would go further and say that I really don’t think it’s helping the equality cause.
I don’t think Sky are helping either. The coverage is so OTT now it’s unwatchable.* I think they only covered the Millwall QPR game to see if Millwall fans booed.* The pre match and post match discussion was all who knelt and who didn’t. Sky Sports News even ran the highlights of players kneeling at matches around the country. Whilst any right minded person understands the importance of dealing with racism, it’s not what customers are paying for and will only antagonise people against the cause.
		
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It’s comments like this that don’t help, every Championship game is available on Sky, Millwall fans booed v Derby on the 5th and Sky showed the Millwall QPR game live on 8th, Sky announced which games were live on the main channels in Mid Nov.

A quick Google would of saved you thinking about it too much.


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s comments like this that don’t help, every Championship game is available on Sky, Millwall fans booed v Derby on the 5th and Sky showed the Millwall QPR game live on 8th, Sky announced which games were live on the main channels in Mid Nov.

A quick Google would of saved you thinking about it too much.
		
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It’s posts like this that don’t help this forum. We are dealing with the topic of racism and you are so desperate to disagree you actually go with Sky were going to show the game anyway.
Congratulations, I bow to your superior knowledge of Sky scheduling. That must make you feel really good!
It’s a shame that your first reaction seems to be to post something in insulting terms, but that’s a matter for you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2020)

Sweep said:



			It’s posts like this that don’t help this forum. We are dealing with the topic of racism and you are so desperate to disagree you actually go with Sky were going to show the game anyway.
Congratulations, I bow to your superior knowledge of Sky scheduling. That must make you feel really good!
It’s a shame that your first reaction seems to be to post something in insulting terms, but that’s a matter for you.
		
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Brilliant, you try the old conspirancy theory which is proven as rubbish and instead of holding your hands up and accepting the proof, you try and spin it back on me😂😂

This post is worse than your first.

Racism is a very serious subject which needs to be dealt with and discussed factually, not by people wearing tin foil hats making up garbage.

Sky Schedule dated 02 Nov
https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...son-november-and-december-games-on-sky-sports


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Brilliant, you try the old conspirancy theory which is proven as rubbish and instead of holding your hands up and accepting the proof, you try and spin it back on me😂😂

This post is worse than your first.

Racism is a very serious subject which needs to be dealt with and discussed factually, not by people wearing tin foil hats making up garbage.
		
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Read again. I accepted that you knew more about Sky scheduling. I didn’t realise the match was scheduled to be broadcast on the main channel. But seriously if that’s all you have to contribute I suggest you refrain and let the adults discuss.

Now, I am not “making up garbage” nor wearing a “tin foil hat”. I am sick and tired of you posting insulting replies to me as your first resort. There is simply too much going on in the world and life is too short to put up with your pathetic little digs and ridiculous posts, so I am going to ignore anything you post and I hope you ignore my posts too. Bye.


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## Mudball (Dec 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Can I just say, having not been on the forum a lot recently, I’m loving how we can discuss such an emotive subject with humour and general good nature. It makes a refreshing change from previous versions 👍
		
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indeed.. it has some grown up conversation, but being an internet forum, Goodwin's law will kick in at some point and drown things...  till then, i m really liking the conversation


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Read again. I accepted that you knew more about Sky scheduling. I didn’t realise the match was scheduled to be broadcast on the main channel. But seriously if that’s all you have to contribute I suggest you refrain and let the adults discuss.

Now, I am not “making up garbage” nor wearing a “tin foil hat”. I am sick and tired of you posting insulting replies to me as your first resort. There is simply too much going on in the world and life is too short to put up with your pathetic little digs and ridiculous posts, so I am going to ignore anything you post and I hope you ignore my posts too. Bye.
		
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You had a dig at the media and stated you believed they are purposely looking to create problems with their scheduling.

A quick google proved you are wrong and your accusations against them are unfounded.

Do you suggest the media ignores the subject? If anything Sky should of been congratulated for keeping the match on and discussing the Millwall crowd behaviour.

Sadly for some people I think they’d rather not have racism discussed as it’s not about them!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 13, 2020)

@Sweep  & @pauldj42 

Put yer handbags away please


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Sweep  & @pauldj42

Put yer handbags away please
		
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No worries Phil, apologies, but with it being such a serious subject I believe we should try and stick to facts rather than Urban Myths, these stories have a danger of being spread and people believing them.


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Sweep  & @pauldj42 

Put yer handbags away please
		
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As you can see, I already have. But some can’t let it go it seems.


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## 2blue (Dec 13, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No worries Phil, apologies, but with it being such a serious subject I believe we should try and stick to facts rather than Urban Myths, these stories have a danger of being spread and people believing them.
		
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Your right Paul......  such attitudes/misinformation, have to be challenged wherever & whenever they arise....  well done.


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2020)

2blue said:



			Your right Paul......  such attitudes/misinformation, have to be challenged wherever & whenever they arise....  well done. 

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, the attitude and misinformation that was being challenged was about Sky Sports scheduling. Not racism.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 13, 2020)

Enough already


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## bluewolf (Dec 13, 2020)

On a (very) slightly humorous note, with sections of the population objecting to violent protests and then objecting to peaceful protests, the only thing left is musical protests.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			On a (very) slightly humorous note, with sections of the population objecting to violent protests and then objecting to peaceful protests, the only thing left is musical protests.
		
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You know that just might work!......

And why can’t all sorts live together in peace & harmony ffs ?

Like this :-


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You know that just might work!......

And why can’t all sorts live together in peace & harmony ffs ?

Like this :-







Click to expand...

This is just I joke btw before anyone starts. 👍


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			On a (very) slightly humorous note, with sections of the population objecting to violent protests and then objecting to peaceful protests, the only thing left is musical protests.
		
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Des O'Connors audiences made it an art form.


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## sunshine (Dec 16, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Just to be clear, the attitude and misinformation that was being challenged was about Sky Sports scheduling. Not racism.
		
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Seriously - stop being an idiot! Paul made a very valid point.

Incidentally, I thought Sky handled Millwall v QPR very well. They could have brushed it under the carpet or switched to cover a different game, but they addressed the issues head on in a very balanced manner. After a fair discussion, they drew a line under it and switched focus to the football. Well done Sky. And well done Caroline Barker, who I've found an excellent presenter this year.


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## sunshine (Dec 16, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Multiculturalism seems like one way traffic, it seems like every other Cultures in this country should be celebrated (nothing wrong with that) but seems our own Culture is racists bigots and slave traders, responsible for all the world’s problems and we should be permanently ashamed of it!
		
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People complain about International Women's Day. Why isn't there a men's day*? It's not fair! And women respond that the other 364 days a year are men's days.

Subconsciously, your culture is enjoyed every day. Sometimes, minority cultures and events need a little push into the wider limelight..

(*although there is now an International Men's Day, but this is a recent invention)


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 16, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Seriously - stop being an idiot! Paul made a very valid point.

Incidentally, I thought Sky handled Millwall v QPR very well. They could have brushed it under the carpet or switched to cover a different game, but they addressed the issues head on in a very balanced manner. After a fair discussion, they drew a line under it and switched focus to the football. Well done Sky. And well done Caroline Barker, who I've found an excellent presenter this year.
		
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He did stop

About 3 days ago.......


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## SteveJay (Dec 16, 2020)

sunshine said:



			After a fair discussion, they drew a line under it and switched focus to the football. Well done Sky..
		
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Err...isn't Sky Sports a sports channel, so should they not be focussing on the football all the time?


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## 2blue (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Err...isn't Sky Sports a sports channel, so should they not be focussing on the football all the time? 

Click to expand...

You've only got to look back to the D'Olivera affair in the 1960's to see how important Sport is in addressing people's warped attitudes.


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## HampshireHog (Dec 16, 2020)

sunshine said:



			People complain about International Women's Day. Why isn't there a men's day*? It's not fair! And women respond that the other 364 days a year are men's days.
		
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I object to it being on my birthday, what are chances of that must be a billion to one😂😂😂


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## Sweep (Dec 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Seriously - stop being an idiot!
		
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An interesting interpretation of forum rules.


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## Sweep (Dec 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			He did stop

About 3 days ago.......
		
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I stopped posting. I was never an idiot.


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## Sweep (Dec 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Seriously - stop being an idiot! Paul made a very valid point.

Incidentally, I thought Sky handled Millwall v QPR very well. They could have brushed it under the carpet or switched to cover a different game, but they addressed the issues head on in a very balanced manner. After a fair discussion, they drew a line under it and switched focus to the football. Well done Sky. And well done Caroline Barker, who I've found an excellent presenter this year.
		
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I was going to ignore this insulting post but actually why should I?
IF you had bothered to read my original post you would have seen that my main concerns were based around the effectiveness of taking the knee in achieving equality. Now, I know that you may not agree. That’s fine. Your prerogative. The more sensible on here understand that people have differing opinions and that creates discussion which is what forums are all about. Now of course this is an emotive subject. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest when those - who wrongly believe those who don’t agree with footballers taking the knee must be racist - tried to pick a hole in my post. The hole that was picked was my thought that Sky may have had an ulterior motive for showing the QPR Millwall game. I was wrong. They didn’t. I acknowledged it.  I believed it was a trivial point in a serious discussion. I formed this belief because of what I see as completely over the top indulgence by Sky on this subject. At this point what we were discussing was Sky Sports scheduling. Another forumer posted that it was right to challenge such misinformation and attitudes. So he was either referring to Sky schedules or he was insinuating I have racist attitudes. As this poster has no knowledge of me or my background I hoped he was referring to Sky schedules but let’s be honest, he was most likely actually making wild, wholly inaccurate and serious accusations. The post you replied to was me making it clear we were talking about schedules. You are actually calling me an idiot for making it clear I am not a racist.

And herein lies a problem. Because people who shout “racist” every time someone says something they don’t 100% agree with actually often perpetuate the problem. They actually get in the way of finding the best, most incisive way of making it clear racism is not acceptable in football or anywhere in society. It stifles the debate that will get us where we need to be. People are scared to suggest anything that deviates from the script for fear of being called a racist. I nearly fell for it myself when I read your reply. I thought I had better not post, it will lead to more trouble, I wasn’t even going to defend myself.

Where we differ is that you believe this gesture in football is working. I don’t. You think that it’s good Sky are pushing it. I think they go too far. That’s it. That doesn’t make me a racist any more than it makes you the man in the moon. And expressing my opinion does not make me an idiot.


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## sunshine (Dec 18, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Err...isn't Sky Sports a sports channel, so should they not be focussing on the football all the time? 

Click to expand...

No, definitely not. That's a very blinkered view that shows a staggering lack of awareness.

It is a sports channel, but sport has been central in many cultural and political movements down the years. Amazing moments but also tragedies. During the Hillsborough disaster, do you think MOTD should have focused on the football only and ignored the disaster occurring in the stands?

The broadcaster has a duty to address the wider context of what is going on.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 18, 2020)

I often wonder how  many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee. 

I'd guess at very few.


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## sunshine (Dec 18, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I was going to ignore this insulting post but actually why should I?
IF you had bothered to read my original post you would have seen that my main concerns were based around the effectiveness of taking the knee in achieving equality. Now, I know that you may not agree. That’s fine. Your prerogative. The more sensible on here understand that people have differing opinions and that creates discussion which is what forums are all about. Now of course this is an emotive subject. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest when those - who wrongly believe those who don’t agree with footballers taking the knee must be racist - tried to pick a hole in my post. The hole that was picked was my thought that Sky may have had an ulterior motive for showing the QPR Millwall game. I was wrong. They didn’t. I acknowledged it.  I believed it was a trivial point in a serious discussion. I formed this belief because of what I see as completely over the top indulgence by Sky on this subject. At this point what we were discussing was Sky Sports scheduling. Another forumer posted that it was right to challenge such misinformation and attitudes. So he was either referring to Sky schedules or he was insinuating I have racist attitudes. As this poster has no knowledge of me or my background I hoped he was referring to Sky schedules but let’s be honest, he was most likely actually making wild, wholly inaccurate and serious accusations. The post you replied to was me making it clear we were talking about schedules. You are actually calling me an idiot for making it clear I am not a racist.

And herein lies a problem. Because people who shout “racist” every time someone says something they don’t 100% agree with actually often perpetuate the problem. They actually get in the way of finding the best, most incisive way of making it clear racism is not acceptable in football or anywhere in society. It stifles the debate that will get us where we need to be. People are scared to suggest anything that deviates from the script for fear of being called a racist. I nearly fell for it myself when I read your reply. I thought I had better not post, it will lead to more trouble, I wasn’t even going to defend myself.

Where we differ is that you believe this gesture in football is working. I don’t. You think that it’s good Sky are pushing it. I think they go too far. That’s it. That doesn’t make me a racist any more than it makes you the man in the moon. And expressing my opinion does not make me an idiot.
		
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Nice piece of revisionism.

What actually happened was you accused Sky of only choosing the game to suit their agenda. Paul pointed out that Sky had already chosen the game well before any of this controversy arose, and you were just stirring things up. You didn't like being proved wrong, and tried to deflect this by focusing on scheduling issues, when the point was clearly Sky were not trying to pursue a controversial race agenda.

You've put together a long reply in the post above, which comes across as quite different from your previous posts on the subject. Now, if that's how you really feel then I respect your point of view. I don't agree with it but I can empathise.


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## sunshine (Dec 18, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I often wonder how  many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
		
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Maybe not grown men in the stands (certainly not those booing).

But maybe kids in the playground, who may be imitating the gesture (even jokingly).


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## Stuart_C (Dec 19, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Maybe not grown men in the stands (certainly not those booing).

But maybe kids in the playground, who may be imitating the gesture (even jokingly).
		
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Its not the kids that need to change.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 19, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Maybe not grown men in the stands (certainly not those booing).

But maybe kids in the playground, who may be imitating the gesture (even jokingly).
		
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It's definitely making its way down to school age children even if they aren't grasping the seriousness of the situation. We were in the car yesterday and older Colch Jnr (aged 11) decided to tell us a "joke" that he'd heard at school. It was.....

"I punched a white guy in the face and got arrested for assault. When I got let out I punched a black guy in the face. I got arrested for impersonating a police officer". 

Myself and Mrs Colch obviously had a chat with him (and his younger brother) about the background to the "joke" and hopefully through education of the upcoming generations this will become a non-issue.


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## Sweep (Dec 19, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Nice piece of revisionism.

What actually happened was you accused Sky of only choosing the game to suit their agenda. Paul pointed out that Sky had already chosen the game well before any of this controversy arose, and you were just stirring things up. You didn't like being proved wrong, and tried to deflect this by focusing on scheduling issues, when the point was clearly Sky were not trying to pursue a controversial race agenda.

You've put together a long reply in the post above, which comes across as quite different from your previous posts on the subject. Now, if that's how you really feel then I respect your point of view. I don't agree with it but I can empathise.
		
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I haven’t revised anything. Remember, I am the poster. I knew what I was posting. 
I did post that I thought Sky may have had an ulterior motive for showing the game. They didn’t and I have accepted my error on numerous occasions now. This was, to me very much a secondary issue and only part of what I perceive as OTT coverage by Sky on taking the knee. After all they have never taken such an interest in “Kick It Out” and other initiatives. Furthermore my view on Sky’s involvement as a whole was secondary to taking the knee not working, being bad for football and failing to deliver on its aims. The first line of my post actually said that I thought a new gesture was needed.
I wasn’t stirring things up. Indeed I tried to end the discussion on numerous occasions.
I was happy to be corrected on the scheduling issue. I would have preferred a more polite correction and I do think if my mistake was highlighted in more respectful terms, none of this would have happened.

I do believe Sky are trying to persue an agenda. Whether it’s controversial is a matter of opinion.
The debate certainly became confused and there were some misunderstandings mainly caused by people rushing to judgement and assuming that because I was critical of the gesture and Sky I was defending racism.
My view and position haven’t altered and I have changed nothing. In the rush to condemn me for daring to offer an opinion that differs even slightly from yours, you and others simply didn’t see the main points I was making. You chose to jump on the bandwagon over the Sky issue and failed to see we only had a different view on how to achieve the same thing.

In reality, the situation surrounding my post escalated quickly because it is an emotive subject and some chose to react too harshly and in far too critical terms right from the start. I responded in kind and I regret this. Such is the forum. Far be it from me to lecture others on this because I am as bad as anyone, but if we had all conversed more politely it’s doubtful any of this would have happened and the misunderstandings would likely have been avoided.
If I may say so, I would respectfully suggest reading the rules of the forum. Criticising the poster using insults is not allowed and sooner or later it’s going to get you an infraction or worse. I am not being a knob about this. It’s just the way it is.

Other than that I think i we are all clear on how we all think. My views certainly are very clear. I am very happy to read alternative views but as far as my original post is concerned, it’s now time to allow the debate to move on.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Can we now agree to disagree and move on before one of us dies (with apologies to Mr B Fawlty)


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## Sweep (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we now agree to disagree and move on before one of us dies (with apologies to Mr B Fawlty)
		
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Don’t mention taking the knee. I did once but I think I got away with it. 😀


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## Fade and Die (Dec 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's definitely making its way down to school age children even if they aren't grasping the seriousness of the situation. We were in the car yesterday and older Colch Jnr (aged 11) decided to tell us a "joke" that he'd heard at school. It was.....

"I punched a white guy in the face and got arrested for assault. When I got let out I punched a black guy in the face. I got arrested for impersonating a police officer".

Myself and Mrs Colch obviously had a chat with him (and his younger brother) about the background to the "joke" and hopefully through education of the upcoming generations this will become a non-issue.
		
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Lad obviously never saw the contrast in Police tactics dealing with the BLM protests (dancing, taking a knee, letting the mob run wild) compared to the “we do not consent” protests (baton charges, multiple arrests and mounted police to respond "swiftly" to breaches of the coronavirus regulations)


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## Mudball (Dec 19, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I often wonder how  many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
		
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You may be right, not many would have changed their views... so the question is ... how many have spoken about it or acknowledged that racism exists...  if 1 family acknowledged it, then job done


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## Foxholer (Dec 19, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I often wonder how  many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
		
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Well the likes of (many) Millwall fans are not likely to change their attitudes, but that's the entire isue/problem! imo! And I'm not too sure many of their traditional metal-worker rivals whose team (but not attitudes) I support are all that different!

It's something that has certainly raised awareness of the issues, so no bad thing imo, but i'd like to think there may come a time when such action is not required!


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## SteveJay (Dec 19, 2020)

sunshine said:



			No, definitely not. That's a very blinkered view that shows a staggering lack of awareness.

It is a sports channel, but sport has been central in many cultural and political movements down the years. Amazing moments but also tragedies. During the Hillsborough disaster, do you think MOTD should have focused on the football only and ignored the disaster occurring in the stands?

The broadcaster has a duty to address the wider context of what is going on.
		
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Completely different situation as it was an event that happened at a sports event (and in the UK). 

However, I can't recall MOTD discussing the politics behind policing policies etc. Today the politics, originating from an non sporting event in the US is becoming as much of the focus of Sky's sports coverage as what (else) happens on the pitch after the initial ritual.


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## Mudball (Dec 21, 2020)

Good to see that Kick it Out has finally got some financial backing. (Pardon my ignorance) but has KIO done much other than a token day or a ‘reaction quote’ to a journalist after a nasty incident


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55872681

It seems over the last week or so a number of Man Utd players have been subjected to Racist abuse on Twitter 

Firstly the players have all said that the recent movement has given them the belief that they can tackle the abusers and stand up to them 

But when will the likes of Twitter , Instagram etc do more to tackle these incidents - it seems it’s too easy to create anonymous accounts just so that abuse can be posted


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## 2blue (Jan 31, 2021)

These recent events are exactly why I have no problem what so ever in joining them in 'Taking the knee' against racism.


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## SteveJay (Jan 31, 2021)

2blue said:



			These recent events are exactly why I have no problem what so ever in joining them in 'Taking the knee' against racism.
		
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It hasn't had any impact though has it. Now just a meaningless gesture in my opinion.


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## 2blue (Jan 31, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			It hasn't had any impact though has it. Now just a meaningless gesture in my opinion.
		
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Yeah, we should have abandoned 'the knee'......  that would have fixed it. eh?


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## PieMan (Jan 31, 2021)

The recent racist abuse directed towards Marcus Rashford and Reece James on social media this last week has been despicable, especially as these two young men are tremendous role models with their work for children and the underprivileged outside of football.

Tackling racism in sport - particularly football - is still the biggest challenge in this country. As a young lad going to Chelsea in the late 80s, some of the abuse directed towards our own black players was horrific, never mind opposition black players (John Barnes immediately springs to mind as arguably the best player - of any colour - at the time). 

Fortunately a lot has changed at Chelsea over the years, and for the good. Having a very rich, Jewish, owner has helped immensely as we've brought in a significant number of black players that have been instrumental in our success. 

Yes some of the idiots from the 70s and 80s are still around and are visible (unfortunately they've bred ☹️) but in my opinion the vast majority of our support thankfully see our players as 'blue' and nothing else. 

As to the 'Kick It Out' and 'Black Lives Matter' campaigns, I personally think they've done some good, but taking the knee I'm not too sure. Is a very worthy gesture, but are we at the stage where people are just thinking "just get on with the game - bored of this now". May well be different if fans were in the stadium and they could be asked to support the gesture as well by keeping silent or clapping, however the incident at Millwall showed that probably isn't feasible.

Will be interested to know what other countries have done to tackle racism at sports events and whether these have been successful; and as such whether there are things to learn from them.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 31, 2021)

Society has to change their attitude before the minority of football fans will.


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## 2blue (Jan 31, 2021)

PieMan said:



			As to the 'Kick It Out' and 'Black Lives Matter' campaigns, I personally think they've done some good, but taking the knee I'm not too sure. Is a very worthy gesture, *but are we at the stage where people are just thinking "just get on with the game - bored of this now".* May well be different if fans were in the stadium and they could be asked to support the gesture as well by keeping silent or clapping, however the incident at Millwall showed that probably isn't feasible.
		
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*Whilst there's this........ & 'Let's keep politics out of sport'.......  *then IMO we know the problem is still there.

Bored with this now!!!.......  shakes head in dispair.


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

Things that are repeated indefinitely lose their impact after a while, however worthy the initial cause. It may be that with crowds in the ground that there is a continued point to the taking the knee before the game, but I would guess that for most viewing, it is a final chance to have a pee before kick off.


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## SteveJay (Jan 31, 2021)

PieMan said:



			Tackling racism in sport - particularly football - is still the biggest challenge in this country. .
		
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Quote of the day!!!! Where have you been these last 12 months.....jeez.


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## PieMan (Jan 31, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Quote of the day!!!! Where have you been these last 12 months.....jeez.
		
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Yeah got too ahead of myself and forgot to say sporting authorities...... 😉 🤦‍♂️

Still if it helps, Brexit is all done and dusted; and Covid is just the flu, so the Govt can just focus on racism!! 😉


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

Will have to post here as being censored on 6 Nations thread. I wonder if they'll learn a lesson by the next matches?
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/scotland-and-england-rugby-players-criticised-refused-take-knee-263392


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

^^^ This is exactly the problem with taking the knee.


Should Courtney Lawes "learn his lesson" too?


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			^^^ This is exactly the problem with taking the knee.


Should Courtney Lawes "learn his lesson" too?
		
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Sorry....  dont know what his problem is.


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			Sorry....  dont know what his problem is.
		
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What "lesson" do people that don't kneel need to learn?


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## rudebhoy (Feb 8, 2021)

Have rugby players been taking the knee in club fixtures? This is not a leading question, I genuinely don't know.


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			What "lesson" do people that don't kneel need to learn?
		
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That choosing not to do so is likely to reflect badly, since its been adopted throughout the world of sport to send a message against racism.


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2021)

Players in the National League have not been taking the knee so they obviously feel they can support the “Kick out Rasism” campaign without feeling they have to take the knee.


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			That choosing not to do so is likely to reflect badly, since its been adopted throughout the world of sport to send a message against racism.
		
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Reflect badly to who? Idiot journalists? Why isn't Cortney Lawes getting the same berating by the media?

Jonathan Isaac didn't kneel or wear a t shirt. The first question he was asked by a journalist (who was white). "Do you not believe black lives matter?". Jesus Christ.


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## JamesR (Feb 8, 2021)

Much ado about nothing


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Reflect badly to who? Idiot journalists? Why isn't Cortney Lawes getting the same berating by the media?

Jonathan Isaac didn't kneel or wear a t shirt. The first question he was asked by a journalist (who was white). "Do you not believe black lives matter?". Jesus Christ.






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Johnson’s statement:
"I believe that Black Lives Matter. A lot went into my decision, and part of it is, I thought that kneeling or wearing the Black Lives Matter t-shirt doesn't go hand-in-hand with supporting Black lives. So I felt like, just me personally, what is that I believe is taking on a stance that, I do believe that Black lives matter, but I just felt like it was a decision that I had to make, and I didn't feel like putting that shirt on and kneeling went hand in hand with supporting Black lives. I believe that for myself, my life has been supported by gospel, Jesus Christ, and everyone is made in the image of God and that we all forge through God's glory. 
Each and every one of us do things that we shouldn't do and say things that we shouldn't say. We hate and dislike things that we shouldn't hate and dislike, and sometimes it gets to a point where we point fingers, whose evil is worse, and sometimes it comes down to whose evil is most visible. So I felt like I wanted to take a stand on, we all make mistakes, but I think that the gospel of Jesus Christ is that there's grace for us, and that Jesus came and died for our sins and that if we all come to an understanding of that and that God wants to have a relationship with us, that we can get kept all of the things in our world that our messed up, jacked up. 
I think when you look around, racism isn't the only thing that plagues our society, that plagues our nation, that plagues our world, and I think coming together on that message that we want to get past not only racism but everything that plagues as us as a society, I feel like the answer to that is gospel."

The US Sportsmen also do it when the American National anthem is being played, that is part of the protest, our Sportsmen are not protesting, they are showing support for anti-racism and anti-discrimination message across society


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## Kellfire (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Johnson’s statement:
"I believe that Black Lives Matter. A lot went into my decision, and part of it is, I thought that kneeling or wearing the Black Lives Matter t-shirt doesn't go hand-in-hand with supporting Black lives. So I felt like, just me personally, what is that I believe is taking on a stance that, I do believe that Black lives matter, but I just felt like it was a decision that I had to make, and I didn't feel like putting that shirt on and kneeling went hand in hand with supporting Black lives. I believe that for myself, my life has been supported by gospel, Jesus Christ, and everyone is made in the image of God and that we all forge through God's glory.
Each and every one of us do things that we shouldn't do and say things that we shouldn't say. We hate and dislike things that we shouldn't hate and dislike, and sometimes it gets to a point where we point fingers, whose evil is worse, and sometimes it comes down to whose evil is most visible. So I felt like I wanted to take a stand on, we all make mistakes, but I think that the gospel of Jesus Christ is that there's grace for us, and that Jesus came and died for our sins and that if we all come to an understanding of that and that God wants to have a relationship with us, that we can get kept all of the things in our world that our messed up, jacked up.
I think when you look around, racism isn't the only thing that plagues our society, that plagues our nation, that plagues our world, and I think coming together on that message that we want to get past not only racism but everything that plagues as us as a society, I feel like the answer to that is gospel."

The US Sportsmen also do it when the American National anthem is being played, that is part of the protest, our Sportsmen are not protesting, they are showing support for anti-racism and anti-discrimination message across society
		
Click to expand...

Man cites the biggest driver of hate in the world as the way to end hate in the world. Utter baffling.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			That choosing not to do so is likely to reflect badly, since its been adopted throughout the world of sport to send a message against racism.
		
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So it's become herd mentality. He did it so I'm doing it.


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Man cites the biggest driver of hate in the world as the way to end hate in the world. Utter baffling.
		
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He's also an ordained minister, I don't think he has a hateful bone in his body.

But you are right. Religion as a whole has never caused any discrimination


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			So it's become herd mentality. He did it so I'm doing it.
		
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It's a simple, but very powerful gesture against racism. So not easy to put something else in its place.


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## PieMan (Feb 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Have rugby players been taking the knee in club fixtures? This is not a leading question, I genuinely don't know.
		
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From memory ALL the Northampton Saints players chose not to last year (haven't seen any of their games this season) but instead opted to stand wearing black rugby against racism t-shirt. 

I would imagine across the English Premiership some players will take the knee, some won't.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

drive4show said:



			So it's become herd mentality. He did it so I'm doing it.
		
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That’s the only reason the Scottish players knelt apparently, there had been no pre match discussion/decision about taking the knee from either side, Rugby has the one minute silence against Racism and it’s up to each individual to choose how they show it.
Afterwards one of the Scottish players said he had seen some of the England players do it, got confused and followed suit, then the other 3 followed him.

Good they have the minutes silence and Rugby as a whole have supported the initiative, but left the taking the knee down to the individual.


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## USER1999 (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			That choosing not to do so is likely to reflect badly, since its been adopted throughout the world of sport to send a message against racism.
		
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But isn't forcing people to do this as bad? People either want to do it, or are willing to not do it, and potentially take the flack, or explain why. Forcing people to do something they don't want to do is just wrong. Either the cause is just, and every one will want to make the gesture, or it's not what you think it is. In my view, this gesture is flawed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			That choosing not to do so is likely to reflect badly, since its been adopted throughout the world of sport to send a message against racism.
		
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Maybe do some research and find out their reasons for the choices they have made 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....call-them-racist-go-and-talk-to-them-20200824


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## PieMan (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			It's a simple, but very powerful gesture against racism. So not easy to put something else in its place.
		
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Yes it is - any clubs own community initiatives to fight against racism and promote equality, probably far more effective than a couple of dozen sportsmen and women taking a knee for 20 seconds before a game. 

I've already posted on this thread about Chelsea's work in the community that is supported by all involved at the club:

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/foundation/building-bridges

I would imagine this is replicated by every professional football and rugby club in the country. 

And the FA and RFU will also have their own anti-racism initiatives. 

It is very much OK not to kneel, but still play an active part in educating everyone in the fight to end racism and inequality.


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## USER1999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Yeah, but forget all the community work, the time and money put in, the education of the many,  and just have a few players spend a few seconds on one knee. Its fine. It'll make a difference.. Those racists will be absolutely quaking.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Yeah, but forget all the community work, the time and money put in, the education of the many,  and just have a few players spend a few seconds on one knee. Its fine. It'll make a difference.. Those racists will be absolutely quaking.
		
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And not forgetting that black rugby players shouldn't have a free choice and should be taking the knee because some white people say so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And not forgetting that black rugby players shouldn't have a free choice and should be taking the knee because some white people say so.
		
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This is just lazy stereotyping, or does that mean Itoje was forced in to it?


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 8, 2021)

I think this might be the most important post to this discussion.


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## Mudball (Feb 8, 2021)

In a cathartic way, not taking a knee by the Rugby players is in a way driven a bigger debate than doing it.  

Genuine question with sweeping generalisation.. How many of knees will be taken in sports that are generally seen/dominated by white athletes...  Rowing, Dressage, Crofts, Winter Olympics...


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## PNWokingham (Feb 8, 2021)

2blue said:



			It's a simple, but very powerful gesture against racism. So not easy to put something else in its place.
		
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it is also intrinsically part of the marxist BLM movement and i would want no part in that. And that is nothing to do with racism


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2021)

Mudball said:



			In a cathartic way, not taking a knee by the Rugby players is in a way driven a bigger debate than doing it. 

Genuine question with sweeping generalisation.. How many of knees will be taken in sports that are generally seen/dominated by white athletes...  Rowing, Dressage, Crofts, Winter Olympics...
		
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Not a tennis fan, what’s happening in Aus before each match.


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## USER1999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not a tennis fan, what’s happening in Aus before each match.
		
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They hit tennis balls at each other?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This is just lazy stereotyping, or does that mean Itoje was forced in to it?
		
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I was talking about people saying that Courtney Lawes and Vunipola should have taken the knee. IMO they should if they want to. If they don't then that's up to them and isn't for anyone else to criticise them for their choice.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not a tennis fan, what’s happening in Aus before each match.
		
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I think some are missing the point, Rugby and other Sports have their own initiatives against Racism, not all “take the knee” or do anything prior to a match/game/event/.

Wales/Ireland held the 1 minute silence prior to the match and they all stood. Scotland will hold the 1 minute prior to their next match at Murrayfield.

Rugby has left it to the individual and other sports have made collective decisions, the message, however, is still the same in that racism and discrimination should not be tolerated and it’s ok for some to believe all should take the knee and it’s ok for some to believe it should be an individuals choice, but the support for both dhould be the same.

One Sport doing one thing, doesn’t mean another Sport doing something different have got it wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was talking about people saying that Courtney Lawes and Vunipola should have taken the knee. IMO they should if they want to. If they don't then that's up to them and isn't for anyone else to criticise them for their choice.
		
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You stated “white people” so is the criticism from black or mixed race people ok?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You stated “white people” so is the criticism from black or mixed race people ok?
		
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No, I very carefully stated "some" white people. Which includes certain posters on here who seem to think that they have the right to tell black athletes how they should protest against racial injustice.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You stated “white people” so is the criticism from black or mixed race people ok?
		
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And to pick up on your other point, no it's not ok no matter who the criticism is coming from. Forcing or shaming people in to taking part cheapens the gesture.


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## Captainron (Feb 8, 2021)

Sportspeople have every right not to take the knee and it’s got rock all to do with us @2blue. Not taking the knee is not a racist gesture like you infer.


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## JamesR (Feb 8, 2021)

Mudball said:



			In a cathartic way, not taking a knee by the Rugby players is in a way driven a bigger debate than doing it. 

Genuine question with sweeping generalisation.. How many of knees will be taken in sports that are generally seen/dominated by white athletes...  Rowing, Dressage, *Crofts*, Winter Olympics...
		
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I’m assuming that was meant to be Crufts...if so, I’d love to see all the mutts and pups taking a knee prior to running round the assault course; and if they don’t having a Great Dane being accused of systemic racism 🐶 🐩 🐕 🤣🤔


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## Robster59 (Feb 8, 2021)

I think football has many issues in terms of bigotry.  Colour/race is certainly one but also in terms of homophobia.  In other sports there seems to have been more of an "acceptance" (and I use that word guardedly because there is no reason why there should not be) of players who have come out as Bi or Gay.  In Rugby, for example, both codes have players who have come out as Gay and also had a world class referee.  There is a tribalism about football fans which does, at times, seems to bring out the worst in people.  I am not saying that other sports are blameless or ideal, but in football it seems to be more deep rooted intolerance to non white anglo-saxon hetrosexuals.


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## Robster59 (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			it is also intrinsically part of the *marxist BLM movement* and i would want no part in that. And that is nothing to do with racism
		
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Now that's a term I thought was only used by a certain ex-President and his followers.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 8, 2021)

if a player of any sport decides to take a knee it’s fine by me.
if a player decides not to take a knee, it’s fine by me.
Its called respect.
If a player takes a knee, he supports Black Lives Matter. He is against racism.
If a player does not take a knee, it does not mean he is against Black Lives Matter or Racsim. But what it will do is contribute to the discussion of Black Lives Matter.
win win I think.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 8, 2021)

Thread tidied up
Comments that infer that people who do not take the knee are therefore racist are not helpful and factually incorrect


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 8, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread tidied up
Comments that infer that people who do not take the knee are therefore racist are not helpful and factually incorrect
		
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Hmm. Outrageous statement. You must be one of those snowdrops I’ve heard so much about around here. 🤷‍♂️😁


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 8, 2021)

Jag är ingen snöflinga, kronblad
😂😂😎


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			it is also intrinsically part of the marxist BLM movement and i would want no part in that. And that is nothing to do with racism
		
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Look, look!!!..... some other folk joining in that Marxist stuff.......  hahaha


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Hmm. Outrageous statement. *You must be one of those snowdrops *I’ve heard so much about around here. 🤷‍♂️😁
		
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Bit rich coming from a Lily...  hahaha


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## USER1999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Wow, do we all have to post in herdiflurdi now?


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 8, 2021)

Ok back on topic now gents 👍


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			it is also intrinsically part of the marxist BLM movement and i would want no part in that. And that is nothing to do with racism
		
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Set up a right wing one then.

Good luck with that.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 8, 2021)

Liverbirdie said:



			Set up a right wing one then.

Good luck with that. 

Click to expand...

we don't need right or left wing. Racism is racism and it does not have a political side - just idiots. Time to take politics out of it


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## Liverbirdie (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we don't need right or left wing. Racism is racism and it does not have a political side - just idiots. Time to take politics out of it
		
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Correct, but if in your opinion there is a marxist option so wont support it  - set up, or support, other ones.


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## Kellfire (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we don't need right or left wing. Racism is racism and it does not have a political side - just idiots. Time to take politics out of it
		
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Evidence shows that racism tends to be MUCH more prevalent in those who identify as right wing. Racism is inherently linked to politics.


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## 2blue (Feb 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we don't need right or left wing. Racism is racism and it does not have a political side - just idiots. *Time to take politics out of it*

Click to expand...

Says he who brought it in......  hope you got a warning about that... ought to have done but probs didn't. who knows.


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## Robster59 (Feb 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we don't need right or left wing. Racism is racism and it does not have a political side - just idiots. Time to take politics out of it
		
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Agreed, but you then you say you won't support BLM as you consider it Marxist?  First of all, I'd say it isn't (but that's opinion) and even if there are Marxist elements in it, that doesn't make it Marxist.


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## Kellfire (Feb 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Agreed, but you then you say you won't support BLM as you consider it Marxist?  First of all, I'd say it isn't (but that's opinion) and even if there are Marxist elements in it, that doesn't make it Marxist.
		
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Two of the founders of the BLM movement identify as being well versed in Marxism which has been widely exaggerated to mean BLM is a Marxist movement.

A worse problem is that people have no idea what Marxism or communism are and use them as insults for any societal system they don’t agree with.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

2blue said:



			Will have to post here as being censored on 6 Nations thread. I wonder if they'll learn a lesson by the next matches?
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/scotland-and-england-rugby-players-criticised-refused-take-knee-263392

Click to expand...

I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned the lack of the taking the knee before the Americas Cup races ? Even more so when considering your attitude to rugby players not doing it and how much you appear to enjoy sailing. Maybe it’s something to do with the perceived image of the sport of sailing - the domain of the white upper class


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## 2blue (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I’m surprised you have mentioned *the lack of the taking the knee before the Americas Cup races ?
		
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No not me 'ol flower...  haha...  take care.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

2blue said:



			No not me 'ol flower...  haha...  take care. 

Click to expand...

Flower ?

Seems you Misunderstood- 

You are very critical of sporting teams etc not taking the knee - yet appear to be avoiding the issue when it comes to a sport you are very much interested in ? It appears to be double standards


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## Kellfire (Feb 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Flower ?

Seems you Misunderstood-

You are very critical of sporting teams etc not taking the knee - yet appear to be avoiding the issue when it comes to a sport you are very much interested in ? It appears to be double standards
		
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It’s true. You can’t even open the Sky Sports app without reading yet another story about a sailor being racially abused on Instagram after a poor performance with the old mainsail.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....decide-to-stop-taking-the-knee-before-matches

Brentford have decided to stop taking the knee 

And this is what Zaha said about it 

*Crystal Palace forward Wilfried Zaha this week described kneeling before games as “degrading”. Speaking to the On The Judy podcast, Zaha said: “The whole kneeling down - why must I kneel down for you to show that we matter? Why must I even wear Black Lives Matter on the back of my top to show you that we matter? This is all degrading stuff.”*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....decide-to-stop-taking-the-knee-before-matches

Brentford have decided to stop taking the knee

And this is what Zaha said about it

*Crystal Palace forward Wilfried Zaha this week described kneeling before games as “degrading”. Speaking to the On The Judy podcast, Zaha said: “The whole kneeling down - why must I kneel down for you to show that we matter? Why must I even wear Black Lives Matter on the back of my top to show you that we matter? This is all degrading stuff.”*

Click to expand...

Thought we should add a bit more of what Zaha said to provide context, rather than selectively choosing one paragraph.

*"When people constantly want to get me to do Black Lives Matter talks and racial talks and I'm like, I'm not doing it just so you can put 'Zaha spoke for us'. Like a tick box, basically.*

*"I'm not doing any more, because unless things change. I'm not coming to chat to you just for the sake of it, like all the interviews I've done.
"All these platforms - you see what's happening, you see people making fake accounts to abuse black people constantly, but you don't change it.
"So don't tell me to come and chat about stuff that's not going to change. Change it.
"All that stuff that you lot are doing, all these charades mean nothing."*

He’s having a dig at the system and the virtue signalling of the PL and Football authorities, he’s not against “taking the knee”

Complete article here:
https://www.sportbible.com/football...ing-blm-shirts-is-degrading-20210212.amp.html


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## Kellfire (Feb 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thought we should add a bit more of what Zaha said to provide context, rather than selectively choosing one paragraph.

*"When people constantly want to get me to do Black Lives Matter talks and racial talks and I'm like, I'm not doing it just so you can put 'Zaha spoke for us'. Like a tick box, basically.*

*"I'm not doing any more, because unless things change. I'm not coming to chat to you just for the sake of it, like all the interviews I've done.
"All these platforms - you see what's happening, you see people making fake accounts to abuse black people constantly, but you don't change it.
"So don't tell me to come and chat about stuff that's not going to change. Change it.
"All that stuff that you lot are doing, all these charades mean nothing."*

He’s having a dig at the system and the virtue signalling of the PL and Football authorities, he’s not against “taking the knee”

Complete article here:
https://www.sportbible.com/football...ing-blm-shirts-is-degrading-20210212.amp.html

Click to expand...

It’s also a pretty stupid argument to make - “Well if a black man thinks BLM and taking the knee isn’t right then it isn’t right”.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It’s also a pretty stupid argument to make - “Well if a black man thinks BLM and taking the knee isn’t right then it isn’t right”.
		
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Noooo. It’s a game for middle aged men to play, find an article from a black sportsman to prove my point.

I’ve the interview with Anthony Watson up my sleeve to play as my joker.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thought we should add a bit more of what Zaha said to provide context, rather than selectively choosing one paragraph.

*"When people constantly want to get me to do Black Lives Matter talks and racial talks and I'm like, I'm not doing it just so you can put 'Zaha spoke for us'. Like a tick box, basically.*

*"I'm not doing any more, because unless things change. I'm not coming to chat to you just for the sake of it, like all the interviews I've done.
"All these platforms - you see what's happening, you see people making fake accounts to abuse black people constantly, but you don't change it.
"So don't tell me to come and chat about stuff that's not going to change. Change it.
"All that stuff that you lot are doing, all these charades mean nothing."*

He’s having a dig at the system and the virtue signalling of the PL and Football authorities, he’s not against “taking the knee”

Complete article here:
https://www.sportbible.com/football...ing-blm-shirts-is-degrading-20210212.amp.html

Click to expand...




Kellfire said:



			It’s also a pretty stupid argument to make - “Well if a black man thinks BLM and taking the knee isn’t right then it isn’t right”.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Noooo. It’s a game for middle aged men to play, find an article from a black sportsman to prove my point.

I’ve the interview with Anthony Watson up my sleeve to play as my joker.
		
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What a sanctimonious pair you really are -

It’s appear you sit there and wait and leap upon any opportunity to attempt to show people up and feel all superior about yourself- even worse when one of you spent yesterday pointing fingers at others for doing exactly what you are doing now 


The article was about it Brentford deciding to stop taking the knee, the same as many other sports teams are now doing , that article contain one paragraph of quote from a player who has been subjected to racist abuse in his career.🙄


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 14, 2021)

Zaha's comments seem, to me at least, to be borne out of understandable frustration. 

Over the years we have seen many campaigns in the media and in football and other sports trying to eliminate racism.

However,  after a while the attention drifts away and the campaign is forgotten by the majority. 

And what has been achieved?

Judging by the continued abuse suffered by many on social media I would say very little. 

If I were in Wilfred Zaha's boots I think I might take the same position. 

Enough gestures, time that society faced up to the fact that there is a problem and start taking action against the perpetrators of this evil .

And educate, not just the children but their parents and grandparents.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What a sanctimonious pair you really are -

It’s appear you sit there and wait and leap upon any opportunity to attempt to show people up and feel all superior about yourself- even worse when one of you spent yesterday pointing fingers at others for doing exactly what you are doing now


The article was about it Brentford deciding to stop taking the knee, the same as many other sports teams are now doing , that article contain one paragraph of quote from a player who has been subjected to racist abuse in his career.🙄
		
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From the bloke who said nothing about the America’s Cup and taking the knee until CaptainRon mentioned it and you jumped on the bandwagon😂😂😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Zaha's comments seem, to me at least, to be borne out of understandable frustration.

Over the years we have seen many campaigns in the media and in football and other sports trying to eliminate racism.

However,  after a while the attention drifts away and the campaign is forgotten by the majority.

And what has been achieved?

Judging by the continued abuse suffered by many on social media I would say very little.

If I were in Wilfred Zaha's boots I think I might take the same position.

Enough gestures, time that society faced up to the fact that there is a problem and start taking action against the perpetrators of this evil .

And educate, not just the children but their parents and grandparents.
		
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Absolutely agree mate, your explanation and thoughts make far more sense than highlighting one comment and risk that being taken out of context.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 14, 2021)

The simple way to bring a rapid end to vile racist comments on social media is to stop annonomous accounts. Make the paltforms verify the identity of all users and the problem of vile trolls abusing people will go into freefall and the perpetrators can be dealt with appropriatly under the law


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			The simple way to bring a rapid end to vile racist comments on social media is to stop annonomous accounts. Make the paltforms verify the identity of all users and the problem of vile trolls abusing people will go into freefall and the perpetrators can be dealt with appropriatly under the law
		
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That's a great thing for social media to implement but it still doesn't cure the fact the we have deep racist elements within our society.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 14, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			That's a great thing for social media to implement but it still doesn't cure the fact the we have deep racist elements within our society.
		
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it should be law for them to implememnt it.
And while i don't disagree that we have racism in our society, the UK is still probably the most tolerant (or at least one of) and welcoming multi-cultural country in the world, it has significantly improved contininously over the past 50 years and that trend is likely to continue. I work in a large team of 40+ and i am just about the token englishman - that would not happen in many countries. It is also sad to see countries like South Africa turn from the disgusting apartheid era into something that is now openly racist and discriminatory against the small minority white population


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## Tashyboy (Feb 19, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56123991

wonder if others will follow


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## JamesR (Feb 19, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			That's a great thing for social media to implement but it still doesn't cure the fact the we have deep racist elements within our society.
		
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and neither does kneeling stop racist scum being racist scum


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