# The SNIP



## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

If they are sooooo wonderful and everyone likes their policies soooooo much, well the Remain one anyway, why don't they put up (or shut up) in the whole of the UK? Then the poison dwarf could then rule over us all and the Remainers would have a real party that has always wanted to Remain to vote for?


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			If they are sooooo wonderful and everyone likes their policies soooooo much, well the Remain one anyway, why don't they put up (or shut up) in the whole of the UK? Then the poison dwarf could then rule over us all and the Remainers would have a real party that has always wanted to Remain to vote for?
		
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The clue is in the S of SNP...


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## chrisd (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The clue is in the S of SNP...
		
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It wouldn't stop them putting up candidates in the rest of the UK though?


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It wouldn't stop them putting up candidates in the rest of the UK though?
		
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Sure, you can form the chrisd party an go against them if you want


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It wouldn't stop them putting up candidates in the rest of the UK though?
		
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Not much appeal outside of Scotland though. Same reason Plaid don't stand outside of Wales. They don't aim to appeal to the whole of the UK, their target audience is very specific. Like them or not there is an honesty to it.


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## HughJars (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			If they are sooooo wonderful and everyone likes their policies soooooo much, well the Remain one anyway, why don't they put up (or shut up) in the whole of the UK? Then the poison dwarf could then rule over us all and the Remainers would have a real party that has always wanted to Remain to vote for?
		
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Why would they sit in England? What a bizzare thought process you must have. Though that said, "poison dwarf" for someone of average height probably sums you up, you complete fud.


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## USER1999 (Sep 5, 2019)

If they sat in more constituencies, they would have more MPs potentially, and could vote through independence for themselves.


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## HughJars (Sep 5, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If they sat in more constituencies, they would have more MPs potentially, and could vote through independence for themselves.
		
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Clearly wouldn't happen, because any danger of winning seats, the Westminster parties would have to admit the lie that Scotland is subsidised.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

If a party in England adopted the general political practice of the SNP I  am absolutely certain that they would romp any election. (Ex independence of course )


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If a party in England adopted the general political practice of the SNP I  am absolutely certain that they would romp any election. (Ex independence of course )
		
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Now this is what I was thinking. I don't like them or trust NS, BUT they have consistantly said the same thing over and over etc etc. This, I think, gives them some credability


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If a party in England adopted the general political practice of the SNP I  am absolutely certain that they would romp any election. (Ex independence of course )
		
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What?  Free stuff for all and we get some other mug to pay for it?     Labour are behind in the Polls on that Mandate


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			What?  Free stuff for all and we get some other mug to pay for it?     Labour are behind in the Polls on that Mandate
		
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I agree, free education for all, paid by the taxpayer is certainly popular.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Now this is what I was thinking. I don't like them or trust NS, BUT they have consistantly said the same thing over and over etc etc. This, I think, gives them some credability
		
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As have the LibDems, especially in the 2017 election in which they got truly hammered.


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## Slime (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The clue is in the S of SNP...
		
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The libs are called the Liberal Democrats, yet say they'll do all in their powers to remain in the EU.
Where does the 'Democrat' bit fit in, then?


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			The libs are called the Liberal Democrats, yet say they'll do all in their powers to remain in the EU.
Where does the 'Democrat' bit fit in, then?
		
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After the liberal bit.


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## Slime (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			After the liberal bit.
		
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No, that's merely where it's placed ................................ it just doesn't fit in, certainly with their Brexit stance.
The Liberal Hypocrites seems to fit better in that regard.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			No, that's merely where it's place ................................ it just doesn't fit in, certainly with their Brexit stance.
The Liberal Hypocrites seems to fit better in that regard.
		
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Surely they'd be the Illiberal Hypocrites.


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			No, that's merely where it's place ................................ it just doesn't fit in, certainly with their Brexit stance.
The Liberal Hypocrites seems to fit better in that regard.
		
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Well they may hold quite a bit of away soon enough


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well they may hold quite a bit of away soon enough
		
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Last time they held any "sway" they made a complete Horlicks of the opportunity...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Last time they held any "sway" they made a complete Horlicks of the opportunity...
		
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But in the end they didnâ€™t really hold any â€œswayâ€ and were dead ducks in the coalition with them being screwed over by the Tories - bet they wish they could turn back the clock to 2010 and make a different turn


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Last time they held any "sway" they made a complete Horlicks of the opportunity...
		
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Yeah I'm not saying they won't again. I think they'll pick up a lot of the youth vote in the GE. Who are interestingly mobilising themselves a little.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah I'm not saying they won't again. I think they'll pick up a lot of the youth vote in the GE. Who are interestingly mobilising themselves a little.
		
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After screwing them over with regard abandoning promises made about tuition fees... Not sure that's a given...


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But in the end they didnâ€™t really hold any â€œswayâ€ and were dead ducks in the coalition with them being screwed over by the Tories - bet they wish they could turn back the clock to 2010 and make a different turn
		
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The leadership was piss  poor then and is probably a lot worse now...


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## Slime (Sep 5, 2019)

........................... and her mum could be an Elton John double!!


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## Dando (Sep 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			........................... and her mum could be an Elton John double!!






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Might put that photo on my front door to keep the burglars away


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			After screwing them over with regard abandoning promises made about tuition fees... Not sure that's a given...
		
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Hard to follow up with election promises when they donâ€™t win the election - they didnt get a chance to do anything about the tuition fees


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hard to follow up with election promises when they donâ€™t win the election - they didnt get a chance to do anything about the tuition fees
		
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They didn't really put up much of a fight either... Spineless comes to mind...


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## Kellfire (Sep 5, 2019)

Well this thread has merely allowed the lesser among us to show themselves up yet again.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well they may hold quite a bit of away soon enough
		
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The only way they'll have any sway is if they all got drunk in the smallest Committee room in HOC,  and held hands.!


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 6, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Well this thread has merely allowed the lesser among us to show themselves up yet again.
		
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Well, it's good of you to  identify yourself. ðŸ˜‰


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

I was born and brought up in Scotland but feel British before Scottish.

I hate the SNP and everything they stand for.  If independence happens I may well move south of the border if you'll have me.


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, free education for all, paid by the taxpayer is certainly popular.

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Free education for all Europeans except those from NI, Wales & England.  That really pisses me off.

People from Eire can rock up and do teacher training in Scotland for free yet those from NI who already pay UK taxes get charged Â£9k - totally disgusting.


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## Farneyman (Sep 6, 2019)

KenL said:



			Free education for all Europeans except those from NI, Wales & England.  That really pisses me off.

People from Eire can rock up and do teacher training in Scotland for free yet those from NI who already pay UK taxes get charged Â£9k - totally disgusting.
		
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Interested to know what exactly pisses you off and disgusts you about this?

What about the teachers trained in Scotland from Ulster Eire?


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

What is Ulster Eire?

I object to UK tax payers having to pay for university education but those from France, Germany etc getting it for free.

It's not that the French etc get it for free it is that English etc have to pay.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 6, 2019)

KenL said:



			What is Ulster Eire?

I object to UK tax payers having to pay for university education but those from France, Germany etc getting it for free.
It's not that the French etc get it for free it is that English etc have to pay.
		
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Scots pay for English universities, please explain the difference.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots pay for English universities, please explain the difference.

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The English , Welsh , N Irish , And EU nationals also all have to pay for Uni in England - thatâ€™s the clear difference , everyone treated the same. I thought you were a clever man


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## Farneyman (Sep 6, 2019)

Just a term I use to try educate people to the difference between the parts of Ulster in Northern Ireland and best parts which are in The Republic or as I like to call it Ulster Eire. 

2 miles saved me a fortune


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## Backache (Sep 6, 2019)

KenL said:



			What is Ulster Eire?

I object to UK tax payers having to pay for university education but those from France, Germany etc getting it for free.

It's not that the French etc get it for free it is that English etc have to pay.
		
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That isn't because of SNP policy it is because of EU regulations . UK people can get cheaper University fees in much of Europe than some of the citizens of those countries as well.
A fair few English are studying on the cheap in ROI.


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots pay for English universities, please explain the difference.

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Nothing to do with unis in England and people from England also pay. It is discrimination in Scottish unis that bothers me.  I've heard before that it is some quirk of the EU that causes this but I have no doubt that there would be a way round this if the Scot Gov decided to do something about it.


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## Backache (Sep 6, 2019)

KenL said:



			Nothing to do with unis in England and people from England also pay. It is discrimination in Scottish unis that bothers me.  I've heard before that it is some quirk of the EU that causes this but I have no doubt that there would be a way round this if the Scot Gov decided to do something about it.
		
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I have no doubt the Scottish Government would love to stop their subsidies to the rest of the EU if they could they have a tight budget. There is not a way round and there are far more English students at Scottish universities that rest of EU.


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

Do you have data to back that up?
I know St.Andrews is popular with students from England and overseas but I'd like to know the figures.


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2019)

BTW, Scot Gov does not have a tight budget.  If they did they would not give free bus travel to working people who are 60 or over or free prescriptions for everybody.


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## Backache (Sep 6, 2019)

KenL said:



			Do you have data to back that up?
I know St.Andrews is popular with students from England and overseas but I'd like to know the figures.
BTW, Scot Gov does not have a tight budget.  If they did they would not give free bus travel to working people who are 60 or over or free prescriptions for everybody.
		
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I don't have the figures to hand but I have looked at it as I live in Scotland with one child at Uni and one child just having finished. There are often places in clearing for overseas (non Eu ) and English students but not for Scottish students or EU students as they need them to bring in the money.
They are short of funds.
I am not a huge fan of the SNP and have not voted for them but the budget is limited. I don't agree with everything they spend it on but as regards education I disagree with giving funds to Scottish students who by and large are middle class and have higher earning families and will earn more themselves rather than spending it on schools where our standards need to improve.
But it is a myth that the university fees is Anti English.


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## KenL (Sep 7, 2019)

This article https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13090853.legal-challenge-over-fees-for-english-students-fails/ makes it clear that it is the Scot Gov that chose to allow the charging of students from the rest of the UK.


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## Backache (Sep 7, 2019)

KenL said:



			This article https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13090853.legal-challenge-over-fees-for-english-students-fails/ makes it clear that it is the Scot Gov that chose to allow the charging of students from the rest of the UK.
		
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The point is not that they cannot subsidise English,Welsh and NI or even students form overseas, I can remember when they all were. But that they HAVE to subsidise students from rest of EU if they are subsidsing home students.

The only people they want to subsidise are Scottish ones but by doing so they have to subsidise EU non UK ones.
It certainly isn't Anti English they went to lengths to plug the Irish loophole whereby NI students used anIrish passport to reduce their fees.
They are clearly cash limited as they have fewer places for Scottish students on courses and places open for English ones as they can only afford to subsidise so many places.


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## Griffsters (Sep 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, free education for all, paid by the taxpayer is certainly popular.

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Yeah free stuff like education, NHS, Policing, Prison Service - all the basic stuff that allows society to function and *some* people to flourish and earn enough money to pay taxes . Or not if they are rich and selfish enough. What a crap idea that is. *sigh*

We need a society that allows more people to flourish and contribute, 'not an i'm alright Jack' one that we have developed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2019)

I see a poll has come out with 50% support for Welsh independence.
I always thought that Wales lagged a long way behind Scotland in that race.
What has happened to cause this surge ?


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## KenL (Sep 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see a poll has come out with 50% support for Welsh independence.
I always thought that Wales lagged a long way behind Scotland in that race.
What has happened to cause this surge ?
		
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Brexit farce and Boris probably.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 8, 2019)

The Welsh voted for Brexit, they may have taken the hump that we haven't left yet.

I can certainly see Scotland leaving the UK in my time, I don't see Wales going. The Welsh are not daft, they know they are not economically strong enough to go it alone.


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 8, 2019)

The Welsh would be worried about not being able to import enough sheep for the locals


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The Welsh would be worried about not being able to import enough sheep for the locals  

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  Wow, and you think that is funny
Great level of debate btw,  sadly not surprising from you.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 8, 2019)

Just a free tip to all our Nationalist friends in Scotland. If you want to guarantee independence let the English have a vote in your next Indyref. ðŸ‘

Graspers oot.

Will the EU insist on a hard border, or does that only apply to NI?


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Just a free tip to all our Nationalist friends in Scotland. If you want to guarantee independence let the English have a vote in your next Indyref. ðŸ‘

Graspers oot.

Will the EU insist on a hard border, or does that only apply to NI?
		
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Well the Swiss and the EU have been in discussions for a long time so I wouldn't hold my breath that much will change so we've got time to repair the gaps in Hadrian's and send the SNP the bill.


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## Griffsters (Sep 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see a poll has come out with 50% support for Welsh independence.
I always thought that Wales lagged a long way behind Scotland in that race.
What has happened to cause this surge ?
		
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It seems the whole landscape has changed since the referendum. As someone that genuinely thought that we are better together the last time Scotland had a referendum my opinion has changed completely. I'm not surprised in the slightest that those in Wales that are not completely consumed by Brexit are thinking what the hell is going on and have a growing confidence that they are better managing affairs themselves.

Brexit has enabled some pretty horrible traits and views to be normalised in England more than our neighbours IMHO. If I was Scottish or Welsh, I'd want nothing to do with it and be promoting independence options.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Welsh voted for Brexit, they may have taken the hump that we haven't left yet.

I can certainly see Scotland leaving the UK in my time, I don't see Wales going. The Welsh are not daft, they know they are not economically strong enough to go it alone.
		
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Wales gets a net benefit of Â£245m from the EU yet voted to leave. That's pretty daft in my book.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well the Swiss and the EU have been in discussions for a long time so I wouldn't hold my breath that much will change so we've got time to repair the gaps in Hadrian's and send the SNP the bill.
		
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Would that be the wall built by English slaves to protect their Italian conquerors from the free Scots.
Asking for a friend


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would that be the wall built by English slaves to protect their Italian conquerors from the free Scots.
Asking for a friend 

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Yup that's the one - pity no-one kept up the maintenance contract


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## Slime (Sep 8, 2019)

Griffsters said:



			It seems the whole landscape has changed since the referendum. As someone that genuinely thought that we are better together the last time Scotland had a referendum my opinion has changed completely. I'm not surprised in the slightest that those in Wales that are not completely consumed by Brexit are thinking what the hell is going on and have a growing confidence that they are better managing affairs themselves.

*Brexit has enabled some pretty horrible traits and views to be normalised in England more than our neighbours IMHO.* If I was Scottish or Welsh, I'd want nothing to do with it and be promoting independence options.
		
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I'm not sure all this arguing is about Brexit anymore ............................... it's about Non-Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would that be the wall built by English slaves to protect their Italian conquerors from the free Scots.
Asking for a friend 

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Your (and your friends) British History is appalling.  The English were not living in the UK when Hadrians wall was built, you may dislike the English but please get the timeline right ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Wales gets a net benefit of Â£245m from the EU yet voted to leave. That's pretty daft in my book.
		
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Do you honestly believe that money originates in the EU?   The EU does not earn money it takes it off member states then gives some of it back.  In our case they give back less than we pay in, so who gives Wales this Â£245 million?


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## Backache (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your (and your friends) British History is appalling.  The English were not living in the UK when Hadrians wall was built, you may dislike the English but please get the timeline right ðŸ™„
		
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Depends what you mean by the English , the majority of the DNA is todays residents of England predates the Anglo Saxon influx which admittedly was significant.


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## CliveW (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your (and your friends) British History is appalling.  The English were not living in the UK when Hadrians wall was built, you may dislike the English but please get the timeline right ðŸ™„
		
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It was hardly a UK back then!


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## Griffsters (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe that money originates in the EU?   The EU does not earn money it takes it off member states then gives some of it back.  In our case they give back less than we pay in, so who gives Wales this Â£245 million?
		
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Question is, do you honestly believe the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg and BoJo would would distribute that money improving lives at the bottom of society, or do you think it would be spent winning votes from their target demographic?

I know what the evidence supports.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

Slightly disappointing to the narrative but Hadrian's wall is about 60 odd miles south of the border. I can assure everyone that the people of Tyneside, Northumberland and I suspect Cumbria as well, have no desire to become Scottish and so any border building will not be based on the line of Hadrian's wall.

Pedants reply over ðŸ˜


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots pay for English universities, please explain the difference.

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Seriously?


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## stefanovic (Sep 9, 2019)

How does Berwick-upon-Tweed fit in to the debate?
Asked a resident if he considered himself English or Scots he replied 'Neither, I'm a Borderer.'
Maybe geographically English, culturally Scottish, but Borderers at heart? 
One things certain. They want the best of both worlds.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			How does Berwick-upon-Tweed fit in to the debate?
Asked a resident if he considered himself English or Scots he replied 'Neither, I'm a Borderer.'
Maybe geographically English, culturally Scottish, but Borderers at heart?
One things certain. They want the best of both worlds.
		
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In my experience of meeting people from Berwick they are largely vehemently English, with an almost irrational passion, or vehmently Scottish, as before. My sons old rugby coach was born and bred in Berwick, had a Scottish accent but if you called him Scottish he would have ripped your head off. I can't comment for the other border towns, Kelso, Jedburgh, Coldstream etc but in Berwick they are one or the other, largely English.

History would suggest you are right, I certainly have not met enough people from Berwick to call my comment a scientific fact.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe that money originates in the EU?   The EU does not earn money it takes it off member states then gives some of it back.  In our case they give back less than we pay in, so who gives Wales this Â£245 million?
		
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Obviously the money comes from member states. The point is that in 2014, Wales received Â£649m from the EU budget, while their contribution was Â£414m, giving them a net benefit of Â£245m. From a purely parochial viewpoint, it makes no sense for them to vote leave as there is no guarantee (some would say no chance) that a post-Brexit uk government would make up that shortfall.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In my experience of meeting people from Berwick they are largely vehemently English, with an almost irrational passion, or vehmently Scottish, as before. My sons old rugby coach was born and bred in Berwick, had a Scottish accent but if you called him Scottish he would have ripped your head off. I can't comment for the other border towns, Kelso, Jedburgh, Coldstream etc but in Berwick they are one or the other, largely English.

History would suggest you are right, I certainly have not met enough people from Berwick to call my comment a scientific fact.
		
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A few years ago, i had a weekend in Berwick with some mates. 2 of us were Scottish, the other 3 English. I had heard that Berwick considered itself more Scottish than English, and wound my English mates up by telling them this. We put the theory to the test by asking as many locals as we could what nationality they were or wanted to be, much to my chagrin, the vast majority said English!


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Obviously the money comes from member states. The point is that in 2014, Wales received Â£649m from the EU budget, while their contribution was Â£414m, giving them a net benefit of Â£245m.
		
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Nope, the net difference comes from London!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 9, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Obviously the money comes from member states. The point is that in 2014, Wales received Â£649m from the EU budget, while their contribution was Â£414m, giving them a net benefit of Â£245m. From a purely parochial viewpoint, it makes no sense for them to vote leave as there is no guarantee (some would say no chance) that a post-Brexit uk government would make up that shortfall.
		
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Have you not me made a good case for independence.
Why has Wales been so badly treated by the UK to merit such a large EU grant.


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

Doon is sooo funny..... you know that there is no such thing as EU money, and if there was an independence vote in Wales, it would lose heavily.


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## stefanovic (Sep 9, 2019)

From replies given I have decided Berwick should have independence from both England and Scotland governed by the Berwick Independence Party.
This is in line with a Welsh border town, which declared itself the Independent Republic of Hay-on-Wye.
Then there's Cornwall which also wants independence.


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

I live in Monmouthshire, that's swapped in and out of Wales/England a few times in the last 500 years.  Locally there's bemusement why the Welsh Assembly send millions of pounds teaching all kids Welsh rather than more time on things that will get them jobs!  The exception being a job in the Welsh Assembly.... where you have to be able to speak Welsh! 

The SNP are a mystery.   They want to be ruled by Brussels, making them the only Independence Party in history, not to want independence!


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## stefanovic (Sep 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			The SNP are a mystery.
		
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Not when you consider that Scotland is different because it's more a cult than a nation. 




			They want to be ruled by Brussels, making them the only Independence Party in history, not to want independence!
		
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They are strongly pro-Europe, but will not want to join the Eurozone. That I find weird.


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not when you consider that Scotland is different because it's more a cult than a nation.


They are strongly pro-Europe, but will not want to join the Eurozone. That I find weird.
		
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The whole darn thing is about emotion/tribalism, there's no logic.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			Doon is sooo funny..... you know that there is no such thing as EU money, and if there was an independence vote in Wales, it would lose heavily.
		
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So funny that you had to dodge the question with a weird non applicable reply. 
50% is quite a high number


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So funny that you had to dodge the question with a weird non applicable reply.
50% is quite a high number
		
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Eh no, and if I need to explain both points, there is probably no point explaining both points.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Not when you consider that *Scotland is different because it's more a cult than a nation*.


They are strongly pro-Europe, but will not want to join the Eurozone. That I find weird.
		
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You think Scotland is a cult...really...!?


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## User62651 (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			The whole darn thing is about emotion/tribalism, there's no logic.
		
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Both partners need to be mutually valued  for any Union to work, agreed?

Re any Union if you tell a partner for long enough that they're inferior or their viewpoint is unimportant or you don't like them or you patronise them or don't listen to them or tell them they're worth less financially or they're no good without you
 then don't be surprised when that union comes unstuck at some point when one partner leaves, no matter the emotional or financial cost.

Not illogical to want to change that in any union is it?


Our UK Union served a purpose but is a bit strained these days, maybe we all need to manage and respect that Union better if we value it? Boris Johnson is a major problem in that task however. 

Even in the toughest days of Thatcher's cuts there wasn't much support for SNP, most voted Labour.  Labour's demise up here has coincided with support for a left of centre party in SNP. Labour were the ones who facilitated devolution too, ironic. Perhaps that devolution has emboldened people to want to manage their own affairs?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Obviously the money comes from member states. The point is that in 2014, Wales received Â£649m from the EU budget, while their contribution was Â£414m, giving them a net benefit of Â£245m. From a purely parochial viewpoint, it makes no sense for them to vote leave as there is no guarantee (some would say no chance) that a post-Brexit uk government would make up that shortfall.
		
Click to expand...

That money comes from UK contributions, we get nothing from the EU that we don't pay for ourselves.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			Depends what you mean by the English , the majority of the DNA is todays residents of England predates the Anglo Saxon influx which admittedly was significant.
		
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At that time they weren't 'English' England didnt exist as a country.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

CliveW said:



			It was hardly a UK back then!  

Click to expand...

Read and digest before replying ðŸ™„   The area now known as the UK never had English people living there during the Roman occupation, England didn't exist then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Read and digest before replying ðŸ™„   The area now known as the UK never had English people living their during the Roman occupation, England didn't exist then.
		
Click to expand...

And Trump is concerned that it has now gone...where's England - what's happened to England?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And Trump is concerned that it has now gone...where's England - what's happened to England? 







Click to expand...

Errr What!   That video has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.  ðŸ¤¯


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Both partners need to be mutually valued  for any Union to work, agreed?

Re any Union if you tell a partner for long enough that they're inferior or their viewpoint is unimportant or you don't like them or you patronise them or don't listen to them or tell them they're worth less financially or they're no good without you
then don't be surprised when that union comes unstuck at some point when one partner leaves, no matter the emotional or financial cost.

Not illogical to want to change that in any union is it?


Our UK Union served a purpose but is a bit strained these days, maybe we all need to manage and respect that Union better if we value it? Boris Johnson is a major problem in that task however.

Even in the toughest days of Thatcher's cuts there wasn't much support for SNP, most voted Labour.  Labour's demise up here has coincided with support for a left of centre party in SNP. Labour were the ones who facilitated devolution too, ironic. Perhaps that devolution has emboldened people to want to manage their own affairs?
		
Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with all of that. Not sure I'd agree that the SNP are left of centre. I'm inclined to think they are a little further left than that - more like old Labour. However, I think many of their socialist policies are very good but I do question their affordability. The current running deficit is horrendous. I don't want to get into the argument of who does and who doesn't fund it... there's no mileage in that.

If I was a Scot I'd vote for independence. I've never understood why a country would want to be governed in many areas in a Parliament staffed by MP's from another country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 9, 2019)

Goodness me they are crawling out of the wood today.

Welsh folk should not speak Welsh
Scotland is a tribe and a cult (assume not a typo )
Whatever happened to better together, same route as strong and stable and done and dead meethinks.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me they are crawling out of the wood today.

Welsh folk should not speak Welsh
Scotland is a tribe and a cult (assume not a typo )
Whatever happened to better together, same route as strong and stable and done and dead meethinks.
		
Click to expand...

If the original poster had put "Scotland was just a bunch of cults" then that might very well have been a typo. 

On a serious note I suspect many in England really don't care about better together or Scottish independence, they're as thoroughly cheesed off with the matter as they are with Brexit. They just want a decision made and to be stuck to rather than having the same arguments coming up over again every few years. If Scotland wants, and votes for independence, then that's up to them/you, good luck to them and I hope it's a success. If they vote to remain as part of the UK then that's also up to them but for God's sake if there is another referendum in Scotland can it be written in to law that there won't be another one for at least 25 years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Reading stuff being posted elsewhere on the interwebbie you'd think that the Scottish Session Court judges were card-carrying Nats.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If the original poster had put "Scotland was just a bunch of cults" then that might very well have been a typo. 

On a serious note I suspect many in England really don't care about better together or Scottish independence, they're as thoroughly cheesed off with the matter as they are with Brexit. They just want a decision made and to be stuck to rather than having the same arguments coming up over again every few years. If Scotland wants, a to law that there won't be another one for at least 25 years.
		
Click to expand...

Rest assured that when they have the next ref they will never need to have 'another' one.


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading stuff being posted elsewhere on the interwebbie you'd think that the Scottish Session Court judges were card-carrying Nats.
		
Click to expand...

I think two are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Rest assured that when they have the next ref they will never need to have 'another' one.

I think two are.
		
Click to expand...

Well - there's a thing.  Duped by the Cult and the wee Witch.  You'd think they'd be intelligent enough to know better.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

Oh dear, pure entertainment


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## drdel (Sep 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear, pure entertainment 

Click to expand...

A rather depressingly bad comedy repeat...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

,Awe come on Col Bogey is pretty obviously a spoof account., funny stuff.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

So far Labour have only 19 candidates in place for the 59 seats for a forthcoming election.
Seriously changed political map in Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty much agree with all of that. Not sure I'd agree that the SNP are left of centre. I'm inclined to think they are a little further left than that - more like old Labour. However, I think many of their socialist policies are very good but I do question their affordability. The current running deficit is horrendous. I don't want to get into the argument of who does and who doesn't fund it... there's no mileage in that.

If I was a Scot I'd vote for independence. *I've never understood why a country would want to be governed in many areas in a Parliament staffed by MP's from another country*.
		
Click to expand...

Unlike you to go fishing Brian


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## Hobbit (Sep 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unlike you to go fishing Brian 

Click to expand...

Not fishing at all. Its something I genuinely believe. Brexit is an excellent example of it. Scotland having a decision foisted upon them that a distinct majority of Scots disagree with. On the one hand it was a UK-wide vote, and breaking it into regions and countries has proven to be very divisive but, also, you can't get away from the fact that the majority of Scots voted against Brexit. If it had been a 52% 'v' 48% there'd be an argument that its was too close, but 62%...


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## Fade and Die (Sep 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not fishing at all. Its something I genuinely believe. Brexit is an excellent example of it. Scotland having a decision foisted upon them that a distinct majority of Scots disagree with. On the one hand it was a UK-wide vote, and breaking it into regions and countries has proven to be very divisive but, also, you can't get away from the fact that the majority of Scots voted against Brexit. If it had been a 52% 'v' 48% there'd be an argument that its was too close, but 62%...
		
Click to expand...


I always think the lower population slants the percentage result. Donâ€™t forget over 1 million Scots voted to leave... not an insignificant number.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Errr What!   That video has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.  ðŸ¤¯
		
Click to expand...

Simpy that in response to England not existing way back in the day.  Trump seemed to think that it no longer exists  'What happened to England? Where's England?...they don't use it anymore'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 13, 2019)

Police Scotland have issued a warning about three well dressed and spoken fraudsters who recently worked a complicated scam on a Balmoral pensioner in her own home.


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2019)

You think that's funny, the SNP are the worlds only nationalist party who have a core policy of relinquishing power overseas!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not fishing at all. Its something I genuinely believe. Brexit is an excellent example of it. Scotland having a decision foisted upon them that a distinct majority of Scots disagree with. On the one hand it was a UK-wide vote, and breaking it into regions and countries has proven to be very divisive but, also, you can't get away from the fact that the majority of Scots voted against Brexit. If it had been a 52% 'v' 48% there'd be an argument that its was too close, but 62%...
		
Click to expand...

Apologies - I read the last line of your post as a dig at the SNP - wanting independence from UK - then simply replacing non-Scottish Westminster MPs with non-Scottish  Brussels MEPs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			You think that's funny, the SNP are the worlds only nationalist party who have a core policy of relinquishing power overseas!  

Click to expand...

...and when UK operates under the auspices and within the rules and procedures of the WTO, what are we going to be doing if not relinquishing power overseas - simply replacing the EU with the WTO in respect of trade.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			You think that's funny, the SNP are the worlds only nationalist party who have a core policy of relinquishing power overseas!  

Click to expand...

Wereas The Tories relinquish power 'overseas' to the DUP.


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## IanM (Sep 14, 2019)

So the MP for the Isle of Wight isnt in the uk according to you then?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and when UK operates under the auspices and within the rules and procedures of the WTO, what are we going to be doing if not relinquishing power overseas - simply replacing the EU with the WTO in respect of trade.
		
Click to expand...

The WTO has no desire to gain federal authority over its members, to create an army , a single currency, freedom of movement, budgetary control of member states,  precedent over member states laws.  Not really replacing the EU with the WTO is it and the UK has always been a member of the WTO, it was one of the founding members.


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## lobthewedge (Sep 15, 2019)

To get back on topic.....

How good is that clip of wee nicola getting scudded on the head playing swing ball?

I nearly collapsed a lung laughing so much!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			To get back on topic.....

How good is that clip of wee nicola getting scudded on the head playing swing ball?

I nearly collapsed a lung laughing so much!
		
Click to expand...

I thought this was funnier.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6F1E6995E3EB83720C316F1E6995E3EB837&FORM=VIRE


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought this was funnier.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6F1E6995E3EB83720C316F1E6995E3EB837&FORM=VIRE

Click to expand...

Yes, hilarious! I worked with the Scottish NHS for over 20 years. From being an absolute beacon of how to deliver a high quality service to those most needy, they've dragged it down to an appalling level.

And how have they achieved all the things in the vid? By running up a huge debt, running a deficit on a par with Greece 10 years ago.

Yep, definitely hilarious and something to be proud of.


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## IanM (Sep 15, 2019)

F bomb Removed


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			To get back on topic.....

How good is that clip of wee nicola getting scudded on the head playing swing ball?

I nearly collapsed a lung laughing so much!
		
Click to expand...

Apparently Sturgeon and the SNP have said that it was all Boris's and Westminster's fault. Well they get the blame for everything else so why should this be different.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

Looks like the Lib Dems will be joining LBJ's Tories in an electoral pact in Scotland for the forthcoming election.
Totally shunning the third largest UK party who, like them, also wish to block Brexit.  Weird logic.
Do they not know what happened to the Scottish branch of the Labour party when they thought it was a good ideal for the last election


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yes, hilarious! I worked with the Scottish NHS for over 20 years. From being an absolute beacon of how to deliver a high quality service to those most needy, they've dragged it down to an appalling level.

And how have they achieved all the things in the vid? By running up a huge debt, running a deficit on a par with Greece 10 years ago.

Yep, definitely hilarious and something to be proud of.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.snp.org/record/
Scroll down to health info.

As a whole Is this not a record that any Tory/ Labour/ Brexit/ Lib Dem/ UKIP party in England/Wales would die for.


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## lobthewedge (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought this was funnier.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6F1E6995E3EB83720C316F1E6995E3EB837&FORM=VIRE

Click to expand...

Ah come on doon, how can you not find that funny?

Politician attempting another fake pishy photo call and gets whacked in the melon with a tennis ball! Whatâ€™s not to like?

Are you really that brainwashed?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Ah come on doon, how can you not find that funny?

Politician attempting another fake pishy photo call and gets whacked in the melon with a tennis ball! Whatâ€™s not to like?

*Are you really that brainwashed?*

Click to expand...


Supporters of Nationalist parties always are...By definition they will be narrow minded, their mentalities are defined by a politics of us and them.


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## lobthewedge (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Supporters of Nationalist parties always are...By definition they will be narrow minded, their mentalities are defined by a politics of us and them.
		
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Tell me about it, try living up here!


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## stefanovic (Sep 15, 2019)

What can Scotland claim?

Golf. Dutch might lay claim, even the Romans. The game of golf as we know it today was first played in Scotland on land unfit for anything else.
Bagpipes. Ancient Egypt.
Haggis. Recipe from an old English cookery book.
Whisky. Claimed by Irish 
Deep fried Mars bars. Scots should feel proud. It was invented in Stonehaven.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Ah come on doon, how can you not find that funny?

Politician attempting another fake pishy photo call and gets whacked in the melon with a tennis ball! Whatâ€™s not to like?

Are you really that brainwashed?
		
Click to expand...

I didn't open the link, but now I have. yes it is hilarious. Nicola took it in her stride though. 
She was well protected in those days with all her hair spray.

I notice you and a few others do not seem to disagree with the SNP's political record in relation to other UK political parties.
Just the usual tired old anti Scottish rubbish from the usual suspects on here.


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## IanM (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just the usual tired old anti Scottish rubbish from the usual suspects on here.
		
Click to expand...

If only Golf Monthly did irony.......


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.snp.org/record/
Scroll down to health info.

As a whole Is this not a record that any Tory/ Labour/ Brexit/ Lib Dem/ UKIP party in England/Wales would die for.
		
Click to expand...

So its ok for the SNP to drive healthcare in Scotland backwards as long as it stay ahead of the rest of the UK? Doon, I'm not on a points scoring exercise. I'm pointing out that whatever the propaganda might say, first hand experience in dealing with many, many Trusts in Scotland the truth is very different. Back in the early 90's, when I worked in the NHS we used to use Scottish NHS practices to drive performance forward. Healthcare practices in Scotland was miles out in front. By 2005 it was neck and neck, with Scotland probably still shaving it. The rest of the UK hadn't caught up with Scotland, Scotland had gone backwards. By 2013 there was a hair's breadth difference.

But here's a question back at you. Why do you post up SNP literature when everyone and their dog knows that every party tells lies? Do you honestly think the SNP would post up, "we got it wrong."

Interesting in the piece below what the Head of the BMA in Scotland had to say.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45969866


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I didn't open the link, but now I have. yes it is hilarious. Nicola took it in her stride though.
She was well protected in those days with all her hair spray.

I notice you and a few others do not seem to disagree with the SNP's political record in relation to other UK political parties.
Just the usual tired old anti Scottish rubbish from the usual suspects on here.
		
Click to expand...

Not Anti-Scottish Loon just Anti SNPðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not Anti-Scottish Loon just Anti SNPðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

If that was the case then why don't they say so.
Mind you it's good to know that at least someone on here knows the difference.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If that was the case then why don't they say so.
Mind you it's good to know that at least someone on here knows the difference.

Click to expand...

I'm not anti-SNP, nor anti-independence. If you look back just a few pages you'll see I actually like the SNP socialist policies but I also questioned their affordability. And I also said I have no problem with independence in that post.

My argument at the last referendum was about the lies the SNP tell when it comes to finance. The GERS report since then has supported that argument, and the link I posted up earlier today also shows the mess the Scottish NHS is in. Its the lies they tell, just like all the parties, that I dislike.

Posting up their own propaganda, which is so easily shown to be inaccurate, doesn't make it them a bad party when it comes to their ambitions but it does when it shows their credibility is on thin ice.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not anti-SNP, nor anti-independence. If you look back just a few pages you'll see I actually like the SNP socialist policies but I also questioned their affordability. And I also said I have no problem with independence in that post.

My argument at the last referendum was about the lies the SNP tell when it comes to finance. The GERS report since then has supported that argument, and the link I posted up earlier today also shows the mess the Scottish NHS is in. Its the lies they tell, just like all the parties, that I dislike.

Posting up their own propaganda, which is so easily shown to be inaccurate, doesn't make it them a bad party when it comes to their ambitions but it does when it shows their credibility is on thin ice.
		
Click to expand...

You must be the only person left in the UK that still thinks GERS has any relevance
If you think otherwise why is there not a GERE.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You must be the only person left in the UK that still thinks GERS has any relevance
If you think otherwise why is there not a GERE.
		
Click to expand...

I notice you never accept anything that says anything whatsoever that doesn't coincide with your beliefs. How about telling me why GERS isn't relevant - don't just post up some warped SNP propaganda, post something up that's independent. And how about the BBC link I posted up about the Scottish NHS performance, inc the Head of the BMA's comment? Is that not relevant either? Or does your paranoia stretch as far as the Beeb and the Head of the BMA?

C'mon Doon, post something independent for a change instead of Wings and SNP literature.


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## lobthewedge (Sep 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I notice you and a few others do not seem to disagree with the SNP's political record in relation to other UK political parties.
Just the usual tired old anti Scottish rubbish from the usual suspects on here.
		
Click to expand...

I love being scottish and I love being british, the two sit side by side with me and coexist quite happily.

I hate what the SNP stand for and are trying to do to my country. I have experienced first hand the hatred and division that some elements of the snp and yes movement promote.

Some SNP policies while being well intentioned verge on fantasy and are clearly unaffordable. Something scotland would find out very quickly and painfully should the day come we are cut adrift from the uk.

Personally, I pay more tax than my English workmates on the exact same wage, while I see no improvement in our NHS or education over the rest of the uk. Spout whatever statistics at me you want, I won't read them as I prefer to know and trust what I see on a daily basis.

Westminster is a basket case and uk politics is in a very sorry state at present. But far from being part of the solution, wee nicola and the snp are visibly revelling in it, and are an embarrassment to a large number of Scots.

I just wish we had someone or something worthy to vote for up here.

Finally, I don't think people on here are anti Scottish, they are anti doon and the bile you spread on here.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I love being scottish and I love being british, the two sit side by side with me and coexist quite happily.

I hate what the SNP stand for and are trying to do to my country. I have experienced first hand the hatred and division that some elements of the snp and yes movement promote.

Some SNP policies while being well intentioned verge on fantasy and are clearly unaffordable. Something scotland would find out very quickly and painfully should the day come we are cut adrift from the uk.

Personally, I pay more tax than my English workmates on the exact same wage, while I see no improvement in our NHS or education over the rest of the uk. Spout whatever statistics at me you want, I won't read them as I prefer to know and trust what I see on a daily basis.

Westminster is a basket case and uk politics is in a very sorry state at present. But far from being part of the solution, wee nicola and the snp are visibly revelling in it, and are an embarrassment to a large number of Scots.

I just wish we had someone or something worthy to vote for up here.

Finally, I don't think people on here are anti Scottish, they are anti you and the bile you spread on here.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not anti-Doon but I deplore his hypocrisy. He posts up thinly veiled anti-English stuff, then defends it by saying "but my wife his English." And when someone bites back at him in a similar vein he cries crocodile tears and "wolf, wolf, wolf."

Most of the time he's on ignore because he won't debate. His standard response, like today, is along the lines of its all lies. His response to the GERS report today; the GERS report is compiled by the Scottish govt, a govt led by the SNP. Yet I'm the only person that believes it relevant. Maybe he should let Nicola know she's wasting tax payers money in having it compiled.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I notice you never accept anything that says anything whatsoever that doesn't coincide with your beliefs. How about telling me why GERS isn't relevant - don't just post up some warped SNP propaganda, post something up that's independent. And how about the BBC link I posted up about the Scottish NHS performance, inc the Head of the BMA's comment? Is that not relevant either? Or does your paranoia stretch as far as the Beeb and the Head of the BMA?

C'mon Doon, post something independent for a change instead of Wings and SNP literature.
		
Click to expand...

Gers is based on  Scotland living under the financial and political rule of a UK government. Carrying a huge amount of UK National debt and paying towards the likes of HS2, London Crosslink Railway, Trident, the Heathrow expansion, the pomp and circumstance of Westminster, Royalty, armed forces and many more things that are of low if not no advantage to our Country.

An Independent Scotland would be an entirely different scenario, not one based on Scotland's response to skewed Westminster government questions.

BTW1...Why do you constantly choose to dodge my question as to the absence of an English version of GERS.Is it too hard to answer.
BTW 2.. SNP Health list was a list of achievements [ie things that they have actually accomplished] in the 11 years they were in power, not 20 years you quote and NOT a made up propaganda wish list.

A wee bit of alternative reading for you
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...ot-generate-60-of-the-uks-net-fiscal-deficit/
Seemingly Wales, Scotland and NI are responsible for 150% of the UK debt.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gers is based on  Scotland living under the financial and political rule of a UK government. Carrying a huge amount of UK National debt and paying towards the likes of HS2, London Crosslink Railway, Trident, the Heathrow expansion, the pomp and circumstance of Westminster, *Royalty, armed forces* *and many more things that are of low if not no advantage to our Country.*

*An Independent Scotland would be an entirely different scenario*, not one based on Scotland's response to skewed Westminster government questions.
		
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Are you suggesting that an independent Scotland wouldn't require its own armed forces and would ditch the Royal Family?


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## HughJars (Sep 17, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Tell me about it, try living up here!
		
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I live "up here", I've also lived "down there". There's no "us & them" running through the SNP, however down there it is often very apparent.


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## HughJars (Sep 17, 2019)

The standard of information and "debate" on show here is appalling. Clearly most haven't the first clue about Scotland outwith the dribblings of right wing fleet street. It's rather embarrassing to read people who seem on the surface intelligent, coming out with such nonsense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you suggesting that an independent Scotland wouldn't require its own armed forces and would ditch the Royal Family?
		
Click to expand...

No, just a greatly reduced force, fit for a small modern European country like Norway and not one that acts as the worlds police.
I would imagine most Scots would still like to have a King/Queen but not one who 'rules over us'. Again greatly reducing the expenditure akin to a small European country like Denmark.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 18, 2019)

Ruth Davidson

@RuthDavidsonMSP
Â·
6h

Not sure this was the reception Nicola Sturgeon was expecting in Germany today - Der Spiegel calling her out as a hollow populist blaming Westminster for everything, referencing the Salmond trial & even the 
@JournoStephen
 sacking affair. https://spon.de/afyUr via 
@SPIEGELONLINE


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## HughJars (Oct 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



Ruth Davidson
@RuthDavidsonMSP
Â·
6h

Not sure this was the reception Nicola Sturgeon was expecting in Germany today - Der Spiegel calling her out as a hollow populist blaming Westminster for everything, referencing the Salmond trial & even the
@JournoStephen
sacking affair. https://spon.de/afyUr via
@SPIEGELONLINE

Click to expand...

Daisley & Davidson. Well with two such balanced commenters, you've won me over


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## Foxholer (Oct 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.snp.org/record/
Scroll down to *health info*.

As a whole Is this not a record that *any* Tory/ Labour/ Brexit/ Lib Dem/ UKIP *party* in England/Wales *would die for*.
		
Click to expand...


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## Foxholer (Oct 5, 2019)

HughJars said:



			...outwith...
		
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Always makes me smile when I see that used!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2019)

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10...ish-independence-is-greater-than-ever-before/

Scotland is not leaving the UK, it's the UK that is leaving Scotland.

Wise words from Eddie Butler talking the other day about Welsh Independence.

'The UK that my parents loved and were proud of no longer exists'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Always makes me smile when I see that used! 

Click to expand...

My first manager reviewed my first report and required me to rephrase '...is outwith the scope of this study'.  I was adamant that there was nothing wrong with what I had written - that it was perfect - he claimed there was no such word...I lost...


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## Foxholer (Oct 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My first manager reviewed my first report and required me to rephrase '...is outwith the scope of this study'.  I was adamant that there was nothing wrong with what I had written - that it was perfect - he claimed there was no such word...I lost...
		
Click to expand...

I hope you caused a sufficient kerfuffle about it all the same! That was, indeed, 'perfect'!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://politics-punked.com/2019/10...ish-independence-is-greater-than-ever-before/

Scotland is not leaving the UK, it's the UK that is leaving Scotland.

Wise words from Eddie Butler talking the other day about Welsh Independence.

'The UK that my parents loved and were proud of no longer exists'.
		
Click to expand...

Correct!  It has been whittled away at by people just like you who for some irrational reason have decided their lot will be better suited to be subserviant chattels to the Franco-German Empire.


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## Hobbit (Oct 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My first manager reviewed my first report and required me to rephrase '...is outwith the scope of this study'.  I was adamant that there was nothing wrong with what I had written - that it was perfect - he claimed there was no such word...I lost...
		
Click to expand...

He must have been a southerner. Its recognised as a Scottish/Northern English word.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He must have been a southerner. Its recognised as a Scottish/Northern English word.
		
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He was very southerner (I was working in Bristol)


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He must have been a southerner. Its recognised as a Scottish/Northern English word.
		
Click to expand...

I used to use it occasionally in Council reports when I lived in Wiltshire. It stumped my admin staff but after interrogation they generally admitted it was a useful word.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 14, 2019)

Delusional 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ferraris-fiery-row-with-snp-mp-ends-abruptly/


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## stefanovic (Oct 14, 2019)

Make no mistake, there is a long history of antipathy between Scots and English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Scottish_Independence

The SNP are merely the latest incarnation of this hostility. Even Alex Salmond admitted most members of the SNP hate the English.
In place of Salmond we now have the poker face of Sturgeon, and she is very likely to break up the UK.
The main driver for this is genetics as described in the Price Equation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Make no mistake, there is a long history of antipathy between Scots and English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Scottish_Independence

The SNP are merely the latest incarnation of this hostility. Even Alex Salmond admitted *most members of the SNP hate the English*.
In place of Salmond we now have the poker face of Sturgeon, and she is very likely to break up the UK.
The main driver for this is genetics as described in the Price Equation.
		
Click to expand...

I think that you buy into that myth...there may be an antipathy (misunderstanding/disconnect) in quite a number to some 'English' attitudes and values - and to a perception that many English feel 'superior' (in general - not specifically in relation to Scots, Welsh and NI) - but as far as most members of the SNP 'hating' the English.  I may be totally wrong but I don't think so.

And haven't a clue what you are referring to with the _Price Equation_


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## stefanovic (Oct 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you buy into that myth...there may be an antipathy (misunderstanding/disconnect) in quite a number to some 'English' attitudes and values - and to a perception that many English feel 'superior' - but as far as most members of the SNP 'hating' the English.  I may be totally wrong but I don't think so.
		
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I'm afraid you are wrong. What happens in life is the war between genes at the molecular level. 
You will notice less antipathy between the Welsh and the English, partly because many English found their way into Wales to work the mines. 
Scotland is more insular.
Nations go to war not only because they have issues with each other, but because the gene pool is different. 
I do not have the time to explain all this but you can do your own research by reading Richard Dawkins and in particular try and grasp the point of the covariance equation completed by George Price. Andrew Marr picked up on this in his TV series Darwin's Dangerous Idea. 
It's unsettling stuff but it explains all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2019)

The Scots gene pool is most certainly different from the English one (though there will also be significant differences between the Northern English gene pool and the Southern English gene pool) ...and maybe that helps explain what I said..._'there may be an antipathy (*misunderstanding/ disconnect)* in quite a number to some 'English' attitudes and values'_

Maybe - dunno.  But I think that the word 'hate' is not the correct word - certainly not for most Scots.


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Make no mistake, there is a long history of antipathy between Scots and English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Scottish_Independence

The SNP are merely the latest incarnation of this hostility. Even Alex Salmond admitted most members of the SNP hate the English.
In place of Salmond we now have the poker face of Sturgeon, and she is very likely to break up the UK.
*The main driver for this is genetics as described in the Price Equation.*

Click to expand...

Twaddle!

The main driver, imo, is the human voice and written word! In other words indoctrination and propoganda!

If you can identify the 'Hate the English' gene, you'd be a 'shoe-in' candidate for a Nobel Prize!


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## stefanovic (Oct 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The main driver, imo, is the human voice and written word! In other words indoctrination and propoganda!
		
Click to expand...

You don't know what you're talking about. And it's prop*a*ganda. 



			If you can identify the 'Hate the English' gene, you'd be a 'shoe-in' candidate for a Nobel Prize!
		
Click to expand...

You miss the point. There is no such thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2019)

Whatever difference - if any - in attitude/thinking there might be between Scots and English - and for whatever reason that might be - I think that it is well wide of the mark to suggest that most SNP members _hate t_he English.  I just don't believe that to be the case - as I do not believe it to be the case for the vast majority of Scots.  _Hate _is a very strong word - and I think it is absolutely the wrong one.


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			You don't know what you're talking about....
		
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I'm pretty certain I know my own opinion!


stefanovic said:



			...You miss the point. There is no such thing.
		
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What are you on about? Kindly explain!


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## stefanovic (Oct 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What are you on about? Kindly explain!
		
Click to expand...

The hostility between England and Scotland goes way back before politics. 
So you can't argue this is all about modern politics. It goes much, much deeper.
Right down to the realm of genetics. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are sometimes called the Celtic nations and England is less so.
I'm not saying that all Scots actually hate the English. In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
It was Salmond who spilled the beans on how much the SNP did not like the English.
Because of Brexit they are starting to feel closer to their Celtic heritage within the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The hostility between England and Scotland goes way back before politics.
So you can't argue this is all about modern politics. It goes much, much deeper.
Right down to the realm of genetics. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are sometimes called the Celtic nations and England is less so.
I'm not saying that all Scots actually hate the English. In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
It was Salmond who spilled the beans on how much the SNP did not like the English.
Because of Brexit they are starting to feel closer to their Celtic heritage within the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Did Alex Salmond say that members of the SNP *hate *the English?  Did he say that Scots *hate *the English?

If he did then he was wrong.  _We _don't.  _Some _might.  _We_ don't.

Now Scots might not understand some English attitudes - but then again a lot of English don't understand Scots full stop 

And as far as Brexit causing Scots to feel closer to their Celtic heritage - nah.  Many Scots aren't particularly Celtic 'heritage-wise', but many if not most do have a feeling of 'Scottishness' (whatever that is) - and an element of that is the Celtic connection.  Ask a sassenach what he thinks of teuchters for an idea of that .

And what Scots might feel in respect of their Celtic heritage has, I suggest,  absolutely *nothing *to do with the EU or some aspect of Celtishness within the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The hostility between England and Scotland goes way back before politics.
So you can't argue this is all about modern politics. It goes much, much deeper.
Right down to the realm of genetics. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are sometimes called the Celtic nations and England is less so.
I'm not saying that all Scots actually hate the English. In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
It was Salmond who spilled the beans on how much the SNP did not like the English.
Because of Brexit they are starting to feel closer to their Celtic heritage within the EU.
		
Click to expand...

You are wrong in so many of those suppositions, you don't seem to understand the results of genetic surveys and how they show a very close relationship between all the people of Britain and Ireland.  Your comments also have a similarity to those used in the past to suggest certain gene pools created races with specific human attributes. This type of belief is dangerous and wrong.


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The hostility between England and Scotland goes way back before politics.
So you can't argue this is all about modern politics. It goes much, much deeper.
...
		
Click to expand...

No problem agreeing to that!


stefanovic said:



			...
Right down to the realm of genetics. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are sometimes called the Celtic nations and England is less so.
...
		
Click to expand...

So what! You are making a huge - and totally wrong imo - leap that it's the (Celtic vs not so Celtic) genetics that is the cause of the 'hatred'!


stefanovic said:



			...
I'm not saying that all Scots actually hate the English. In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
...
		
Click to expand...

Another attempt to connect 2 unconnected situations!


stefanovic said:



			...
It was Salmond who spilled the beans on how much the SNP did not like the English.
...
		
Click to expand...

Was it? It's always been pretty obvious to me that some of them 'don't like the English'! But, likewise, plenty of English don't like the SNP either!


stefanovic said:



			...Because of Brexit they are starting to feel closer to their Celtic heritage within the EU.
		
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IYO! To me, that's twaddle!


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2019)

So the SNP will only support a Corbyn caretaker government if Corbyn  agrees to a 2nd Scottish leave referendum  - nice to know its all about democracy and Brexit and not self serving MP's  ðŸ˜¤


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			The hostility between England and Scotland goes way back before politics.
So you can't argue this is all about modern politics. It goes much, much deeper.
Right down to the realm of genetics. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are sometimes called the Celtic nations and England is less so.
I'm not saying that all Scots actually hate the English. In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
It was Salmond who spilled the beans on how much the SNP did not like the English.
Because of Brexit they are starting to feel closer to their Celtic heritage within the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Weird, just plain weird. I'd argue that genetics makes us closer, not further apart. Humans might not be close to dolphins or orang-utans but its not genetics that create some of the differences between Scots and the English. I'd argue its deeply joined, and sometimes violent, history and politics that create any divisions.

Frontline politics in Scotland isn't necessarily rooted in independence, even though the SNP are the dominant party. Many of the SNP's policies are more socialist than those in the modern Labour Party. And if you do just a little research you'll find that the correlation between the number of SNP members and the number who voted for independence it doesn't quite align. Equally, its surprising how many people voted for independence but don't vote SNP.

There is some hostility, and I've experienced it living and working there, but you're talking about 0.01%. I'd sooner spend a week in Edinburgh than London - in the main, the people are far nicer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 14, 2019)

Between 10 to 15% of SNP voters do not want Independence.
They vote for the SNP because they like their policies and competence in running Scottish affairs.
On the other hand around 30 to 40% of Scottish Labour voters support Independence but would never vote for the SNP.
It is not as simple as some of the  'experts on Scottish affairs' on here realise. 

Re armed forces, I am pretty certain that an Independent Scotland using it's share of former UK finance input could quite easily support a reduced but more modern force along similar lines to Ireland, Norway or Denmark.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So the SNP will only support a Corbyn caretaker government if Corbyn  agrees to a 2nd Scottish leave referendum  - nice to know its all about democracy and Brexit and not self serving MP's  ðŸ˜¤
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper into what you said, remembering that the SNP wish to gain Independence for Scotland.
Why should they give a stuff about what happens to rUK after Brexit as the rUK could not give a stuff about the result of the Scottish Brexit vote.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper into what you said, remembering that the SNP wish to gain Independence for Scotland.
Why should they give a stuff about what happens to rUK after Brexit as the rUK could not give a stuff about the result of the Scottish Brexit vote.
		
Click to expand...

The Brexit vote was across the entire UK and NOT regionally.  There were many areas who voted remain but it was never a referendum to be decided anything other than IN or OUT and you know that, just as the Scottish independence referendum was a straight vote  - but, of course democracy doesnt count any more ðŸ˜£


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## Dando (Oct 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper into what you said, remembering that the SNP wish to gain Independence for Scotland.
Why should they give a stuff about what happens to rUK after Brexit as the rUK could not give a stuff about the result of the Scottish Brexit vote.
		
Click to expand...

Blah blah blah.  
Perhaps you need to understand the referendum was for the whole of the uk and there was no â€œScottish brexit vote.â€
Maybe youâ€™ll get another â€œonce in a lifetimeâ€œ vote on independence and if leave win then hopefully youâ€™ll stop behaving like a petulant child.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The Brexit vote was across the entire UK and NOT regionally.  There were many areas who voted remain but it was never a referendum to be decided anything other than IN or OUT and you know that, just as the Scottish independence referendum was a straight vote  - but, of course democracy doesnt count any more ðŸ˜£
		
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Ok in simple terms...â€¦â€¦...if you are Scottish and want independence the result of the UK Brexit vote is totally irrelevant. 
Do you think that independence supporters would stop wanting independence if Remain had won and we were still being ruled by May's rag tag government.
UK democracy is not an issue or debate so it obviously does not matter.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ok in simple terms...â€¦â€¦...if you are Scottish and want independence the result of the UK Brexit vote is totally irrelevant. 
Do you think that independence supporters would stop wanting independence if Remain had won and we were still being ruled by May's rag tag government.
UK democracy is not an issue or debate so it obviously does not matter.
		
Click to expand...

My original point was that the politicians are using Brexit and the shenanigans going on in government to further their own ambitions without a care for the UK as a whole. Labour will only do this, Liberals only that, and your lot will only support the Labour  position IF they promise  another leave vote will be allowed. Surely this horse trading shows that the country, including Scotland, is just being run by self serving arse wipes and they should all be ashamed of themselves


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## KenL (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			In Indref1 52% voted to stay within the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Correction - 55.3% voted to remain as a part of the UK.  Many regions of Scotland voted much more strongly to remain.  Only the cities of Glasgow & Dundee were in favour of separation.

I certainly don't hate "the English" but I do hate with a passion the SNP.  Pure poison!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183784685333291014


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183784685333291014

Click to expand...

Thats funny.


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## User62651 (Oct 15, 2019)

Protocol determines a PM should listen to 2 speakers after he has spoken, not up and leave. BJ showing disprespect for office again. SNP have form for walking out themselves of course so not defending Blackford who I do find a bit tedious.

Just whole thing's a laughing stock and childish -Tory's walking out ahead of SNP rep speaking just reinforces division amongst the public,  so although it may be 'funny' it also plays into the SNP cause as it may tip a few more SNPs way. Given the 13 Tory MPs they have up here who kept May/Tories in power in 2017 and are on very shaky ground come another GE, perhaps the Tory MPs could be more tactful?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 15, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Protocol determines a PM should listen to 2 speakers after he has spoken, not up and leave. BJ showing disprespect for office again. SNP have form for walking out themselves of course so not defending Blackford who I do find a bit tedious.

Just whole thing's a laughing stock and childish -Tory's walking out ahead of SNP rep speaking just reinforces division amongst the public,  so although it may be 'funny' it also plays into the SNP cause as it may tip a few more SNPs way. Given the 13 Tory MPs they have up here who kept May/Tories in power in 2017 and are on very shaky ground come another GE, perhaps the Tory MPs could be more tactful?

Click to expand...

I think right now we need a factory reset from ALL MP's regarding behaviour. The whole set up is toxic and I don't know that any side comes out with any credit. How we get that reset without something awful happening I don't know.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 15, 2019)

It seems to me that in the ROW it's the people who are protesting at what the government are doing but here it's the government who are protesting over what the people have voted for


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183784685333291014

Click to expand...

Independence supporters are using that clip to show that the Union is not working for Scotland.


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## KenL (Oct 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183784685333291014

Click to expand...

That's exactly what he deserves.  A broken record of a man and embarrassment to decent Scottish people.


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## KenL (Oct 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Independence supporters are using that clip to show that the Union is not working for Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Any old rubbish to support what THEY want!


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## stefanovic (Oct 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are wrong in so many of those suppositions, you don't seem to understand the results of genetic surveys and how they show a very close relationship between all the people of Britain and Ireland.  Your comments also have a similarity to those used in the past to suggest certain gene pools created races with specific human attributes. This type of belief is dangerous and wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Genetic surveys are statistical. Humans are 98% gorilla, 70% banana and so on. But very small genetic traits can lead to big differences. Jews and Muslims share a virtually identical genome, yet look at the trouble it has caused. Jerusalem means the city of peace, which is hard to believe.
For an English person trying to understand the Scots is not easy. Why do they hardly fly the union flag? Why do the Campbell's and Macdonald's still dislike each other? Why is the clan system so important?
You don't get the annual football match between Scotland and England now partly because of security and health and safety fears.
Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish independence. I want to see how they get on without a major airport or seaport and the only road border is with England. I want to see how they get on with a currency which is regulated by the Bank of England.
If the SNP are so pro-European then why don't they want to join the Eurozone? What would their immigration policy look like to non EU nationals? Would their weather improve?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Genetic surveys are statistical. Humans are 98% gorilla, 70% banana and so on. But very small genetic traits can lead to big differences. Jews and Muslims share a virtually identical genome, yet look at the trouble it has caused. Jerusalem means the city of peace, which is hard to believe.
For an English person trying to understand the Scots is not easy. Why do they hardly fly the union flag? *Why do the Campbell's and Macdonald's still dislike each other*? Why is the clan system so important?
You don't get the annual football match between Scotland and England now partly because of security and health and safety fears.
Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish independence. I want to see how they get on without a major airport or seaport and the only road border is with England. I want to see how they get on with a currency which is regulated by the Bank of England.
If the SNP are so pro-European then why don't they want to join the Eurozone? What would their immigration policy look like to non EU nationals? Would their weather improve?
		
Click to expand...

LOL - really?


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## stefanovic (Oct 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - really?
		
Click to expand...

Probably because at Glencoe it was Irish (Campbell's) v Scots (Macdonald's).

The name Sturgeon is an English name for a fishmonger.
Just as fishy, Salmond is also most recently an English name. 
England the brave!

Q: Which of these did the Scots invent? 
    The kilt, the bagpipes, the haggis.
A: none.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Genetic surveys are statistical. Humans are 98% gorilla, 70% banana and so on. But very small genetic traits can lead to big differences. Jews and Muslims share a virtually identical genome, yet look at the trouble it has caused. Jerusalem means the city of peace, which is hard to believe.
For an English person trying to understand the Scots is not easy. Why do they hardly fly the union flag? Why do the Campbell's and Macdonald's still dislike each other? Why is the clan system so important?
You don't get the annual football match between Scotland and England now partly because of security and health and safety fears.
Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish independence. I want to see how they get on without a major airport or seaport and the only road border is with England. I want to see how they get on with a currency which is regulated by the Bank of England.
If the SNP are so pro-European then why don't they want to join the Eurozone? What would their immigration policy look like to non EU nationals? Would their weather improve?
		
Click to expand...

I didnt know there was such a thing as a 'flag flying gene' or even a 'flag burning gene'.   Well, you live and learn


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## stefanovic (Oct 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt know there was such a thing as a 'flag flying gene'
		
Click to expand...

Best answer - because there are so many flying midges (Latin: Midgus Ferocius) up there (they stop at the border) that they are only repelled by the national flag.
Now we're getting somewhere. The SNP want Indyref2 in 2020.
Bring it on. I'd also like it rolled out to the rest of the UK to see if we want them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Best answer - because there are so many flying midges (Latin: Midgus Ferocius) up there (they stop at the border) that they are only repelled by the national flag.
Now we're getting somewhere. The SNP want Indyref2 in 2020.
Bring it on. I'd also like it rolled out to the rest of the UK to see if we want them.
		
Click to expand...

Who are 'we'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2019)

KenL said:



			Any old rubbish to support what THEY want!
		
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Any old rubbish.
Good god man .........it's a live feed from Westminster.


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## IanM (Oct 15, 2019)

My company has put a tender in for the rebranding of the SFP.

I thought it was the Irish Republic they wanted to join.


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## patricks148 (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Best answer - because there are so many flying midges (Latin: Midgus Ferocius) up there (they stop at the border) that they are only repelled by the national flag.
Now we're getting somewhere. The SNP want Indyref2 in 2020.
Bring it on. I'd also like it rolled out to the rest of the UK to see if we want them.
		
Click to expand...

are you on drugs???


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## Dando (Oct 15, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			are you on drugs???
		
Click to expand...

After reading his other ramblings I believe he his


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## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Genetic surveys are statistical. Humans are 98% gorilla, 70% banana and so on. But very small genetic traits can lead to big differences. Jews and Muslims share a virtually identical genome, yet look at the trouble it has caused. Jerusalem means the city of peace, which is hard to believe.
For an English person trying to understand the Scots is not easy. Why do they hardly fly the union flag? Why do the Campbell's and Macdonald's still dislike each other? Why is the clan system so important?
You don't get the annual football match between Scotland and England now partly because of security and health and safety fears.
Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish independence. I want to see how they get on without a major airport or seaport and the only road border is with England. I want to see how they get on with a currency which is regulated by the Bank of England.
If the SNP are so pro-European then why don't they want to join the Eurozone? What would their immigration policy look like to non EU nationals? Would their weather improve?
		
Click to expand...

More utter, potentially dangerous, twaddle!

Go get your meds dosages re-assessed!


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## drdel (Oct 15, 2019)

Sturgeon's logic just escapes me. The UK leaves the EU,  sometime.

 Scotland decides to leave the UK and crawls of to the EU. I wonder how that would pan out?

Assuming they eventually joined the EU and no longer use the pound etc etc. What then? 

I'm sure the SNP have the answer, but I'm sure I have no idea .


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## KenL (Oct 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any old rubbish.
Good god man .........it's a live feed from Westminster.
		
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The rubbish is what the independence side will use to support their selfish cause.

If I were in Westminster I would be walking out when that wind bag spouted the same boring rubbish for the thousandth time.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 15, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			are you on drugs???
		
Click to expand...

No heâ€™s off the meds!ðŸ¤ª


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sturgeon's logic just escapes me. The UK leaves the EU,  sometime.

Scotland decides to leave the UK and crawls of to the EU. I wonder how that would pan out?

Assuming they eventually joined the EU and no longer use the pound etc etc. What then?

I'm sure the SNP have the answer, but I'm sure I have no idea .
		
Click to expand...

I love the 'crawls back to the EU' bit. Nae spin there at a.
You seem to have forgotten that it is English right wing nationalist voters who are forcing Scotland out of the EU against their voters wishes. [just a wee bit of spin there]
Mind you â€¦.you are correct in saying you have no idea.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I love the 'crawls back to the EU' bit. Nae spin there at a.
You seem to have forgotten that it is English right wing nationalist voters who are forcing Scotland out of the EU against their voters wishes. [just a wee bit of spin there]
Mind you â€¦.you are correct in saying you have no idea.
		
Click to expand...

Et Tu Brute.    The referendum was decided on a UK vote not Scottish only, on your reckoning 30% of Scottish voters were Right Wing Nationalists also.most of Wales voted leave.  More than a sporran full of spin there Doom.


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I love the 'crawls back to the EU' bit. Nae spin there at a.
You seem to have forgotten that it is English right wing nationalist voters who are forcing Scotland out of the EU against their voters wishes. [just a wee bit of spin there]
Mind you â€¦.you are correct in saying you have no idea.
		
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I see you're more concerned about one word 'crawls' than addressing the content.

At the present Scotland is in the UK - the UK voted; its the democratic way; it works by majority

You may have seen the reports that the EU believe it highly unlikely Scotland would be allowed to join.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Piffle.
I haven't seen your 'unlikely' reports but I have seen plenty that say Scotland would be welcomed back into the EU.
Mind you that will only happen if the UK leave in the first place.


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## Grant85 (Oct 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			You may have seen the reports that the EU believe it highly unlikely Scotland would be allowed to join.
		
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Would be amazed to see these reports. I see that you have linked them as they must be so readily available.

There are literally no reports or credible sources saying iScotland would not be able to join the EU. 

The best the Brit Nats can come up with are 'Scotland will be out of the EU and it might take a while to get back in... oh and you might need to join the Euro'. 

Reality is that iScotland would be very welcome in the EU. There is a huge amount of goodwill in the EU for Scotland and they would easily meet the criteria for membership which would likely be teed up after a Yes vote, prior to legal independence day.


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## lobthewedge (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Would be amazed to see these reports. I see that you have linked them as they must be so readily available.

There are literally no reports or credible sources saying iScotland would not be able to join the EU.

The best the Brit Nats can come up with are 'Scotland will be out of the EU and it might take a while to get back in... oh and you might need to join the Euro'.

Reality is that iScotland would be very welcome in the EU. There is a huge amount of goodwill in the EU for Scotland and they would easily meet the criteria for membership which would likely be teed up after a Yes vote, prior to legal independence day.
		
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I think you are right, the Eu would probably accept an independent Scotland back into the fold, but reckon we would have to ditch the pound and a take on the Euro.

However, this is the logic that baffles me with many SNP/YES supporters.  Why are they so keen to throw off the bonds of Westminster and England only to tie themselves up even more tightly with the EU and Brussels?  You are surely swapping one overlord for another, and giving up more controls to a governing body even further away from you both geographically and culturally?  I don't get it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Probably because at Glencoe it was Irish (Campbell's) v Scots (Macdonald's).

The name Sturgeon is an English name for a fishmonger.
Just as fishy, Salmond is also most recently an English name.
England the brave!

Q: Which of these did the Scots invent?
    The kilt, the bagpipes, the haggis.
A: none.
		
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You didn't mention that we never invented golf either...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt know there was such a thing as a 'flag flying gene' or even a 'flag burning gene'.   Well, you live and learn 

Click to expand...

But there may be a 'flag wrapping' gene


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2019)

After the first stay-in UK vote there's a world of difference in an independent Scotland *staying *in the EU (as viewed in 2013/14) compared to post Brexit: as an external country, Scotland, applying to join afresh.

EU's report is interesting, summarised by the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49690513


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			After the first stay-in UK vote there's a world of difference in an independent Scotland *staying *in the EU (as viewed in 2013/14) compared to post Brexit: as an external country, Scotland, applying to join afresh.

EU's report is interesting, summarised by the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49690513

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how that article supports your statement (on basis of a quick read)

_You may have seen the reports that the EU believe it highly unlikely Scotland would be allowed to join._

In fact is seems that the EU would be much more accommodating of a request from an independent Scotland that it would have been in 2014?  Yes - some strict conditions - but not dismissive of, or likely to reject, any such request.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			After the first stay-in UK vote there's a world of difference in an independent Scotland *staying *in the EU (as viewed in 2013/14) compared to post Brexit: as an external country, Scotland, applying to join afresh.

EU's report is interesting, summarised by the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49690513

Click to expand...

Nope, I can't see one mention of 'unlikely' there.
I wonder how long it took you to find that one link.
You will need to scratch a bit deeper


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But there may be a 'flag wrapping' gene  

Click to expand...

I think that falls well into the 'Flag Waving' category anyway.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not sure how that article supports your statement (on basis of a quick read)

_You may have seen the reports that the EU believe it highly unlikely Scotland would be allowed to join._

In fact is seems that the EU would be much more accommodating of a request from an independent Scotland that it would have been in 2014?  Yes - some strict conditions - but not dismissive of, or likely to reject, any such request.
		
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Why would the EU want another basket ecconomy to support, especially with the funding from England lost.


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## Grant85 (Oct 16, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I think you are right, the Eu would probably accept an independent Scotland back into the fold, but reckon we would have to ditch the pound and a take on the Euro.

However, this is the logic that baffles me with many SNP/YES supporters.  Why are they so keen to throw off the bonds of Westminster and England only to tie ourselves up even more tightly with the EU and Brussels?  I dont get it?
		
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I accept the currency of iScotland is a challenge. I feel that the Euro is actually a much more credible option than it was in 2014... certainly more credible than a new Scottish currency. 

In reality I think iScotland would have been able to keep the pound given the Scottish contribution to the UK balance of payments (via oil and whisky) but obviously this did not play out well enough in the campaign. 

But to answer your question... the bonds of Westminster are just that... bonds. If the UK wants to lower VAT, raise corporation tax, declare war on Turkey etc. then Scotland has none or very little say in that. 
Within the EU, they would be in a partnership. Look at the influence that Varadkar has over EU negotiations... he has been backed to the hilt by the EU as a small nation of around 1.5% of the EU population. 
Compare that with the Scottish Government within the UK framework whose attempts at compromise (EFTA type proposal) were completely dismissed out of hand at the early stages with basically zero attempt to involve Scottish government or even Scottish politicians in the process as it has gone on. 

So to say we would be governed even more tightly as an independent nation within the EU is just simply nonsense.  An iScottish government would have far more scope to set policy for Scotland, as opposed to simply hoping that policy for London / England matches or doesn't interfere with Scottish interests. 

Would the EU set Scottish VAT? No
Would the EU force Scotland into a war? No
Would the EU prevent Scotland from having a referendum on anything? No


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## User62651 (Oct 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why would the EU want another basket ecconomy to support, especially with the funding from England lost.
		
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Derogatory language or trolling just steels resolve. The economy can change once you have full control over how it's set up and regulated. More taxation isn't necessarily a swear word except in blue England, works for countries with highest standards of living. After 9 years of austerity (we're all in it together chaps) many may be thinking might as well give independence a go.

EU is for the greater good, it does spread wealth around from rich to poor which is too socialist an idea for may Tories (who generally happen to be better off). International harmony, co-operation, joined up thinking, wealth redistribution on a continent that has had endless wars is a good thing, it is very tricky to do but better sticking with it than quitting.

Dont know what you've got till it's gone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think that falls well into the 'Flag Waving' category anyway.
		
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I do see a difference, see Trump.  He wraps himself in the Stars and Stripes in a way quite different to the way that all Americans wave their flag.  Wrapping yourself in a flag indicates to me that the 'flag' is all - nothing but the nation matters - insular in a way.  Waving the flag is not quite the same - not quite so insular - it identifies the waver as being of the nation - not necessarily that the nation is all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Derogatory language or trolling just steels resolve. The economy can change once you have full control over how it's set up and regulated. More taxation isn't necessarily a swear word except in blue England, works for countries with highest standards of living. After 9 years of austerity (we're all in it together chaps) *many may be thinking might as well give independence a go.*

EU is for the greater good, it does spread wealth around from rich to poor which is too socialist an idea for may Tories (who generally happen to be better off). International harmony, co-operation, joined up thinking, wealth redistribution on a continent that has had endless wars is a good thing, it is very tricky to do but better sticking with it than quitting.

Dont know what you've got till it's gone.
		
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As I found from a most unexpected source on my recent visit to Edinburgh.  A successful and now retired Barrhead-born Tory voter and his Maryhill-born wife (OK - they've lived in Guildford for 30yrs) - moved to Edinburgh 3 yrs ago - neither been supportive of Independence.  They told me that, quite astonishingly, they find their hearts now supportive - though their heads are still asking about the numbers. 

They told me that they look at Westminster, the toxicity of Brexit Debate, the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg - and the England they lived in for so long and loved - and they now feel that none of it is them - but that they feel 'at home' where they live now.  And so for the first time in their lives, and despite what they have thought in the past, they would consider voting for independence.

Yes of course this is just one couple.  But if they are thinking this then the Unionists have a problem.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?

If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?


I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.


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## Grant85 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?
		
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The only reason the SNP are calling for another referendum is because they keep winning elections. Since 2014 they have won 2 Westminster elections, 1 Scottish Parliamentary election, 1 Scottish Council election and 1 European Parliamentary elections (i.e. won most votes and most seats in all of these polls).

That kind of how democracy works. If you win an election, you are expected to implement what you advocated prior to that vote.



Lord Tyrion said:



			If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?

I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.
		
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In this scenario... a unionist party would have to win an election and find a majority in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum. Democracy rules.

With regards to a confirmatory referendum... I don't believe this is necessary in all cases. Parliaments should be able to make the decisions. If the UK Government had gone down the route of negotiating an EFTA / Customs Union agreement with the EU, then we'd have already left the EU and it would have likely been confirmed overwhelmingly by parliament. The reason that a 2nd referendum campaign is now close to succeeding is that the UK Gov have succeeded only in negotiating contentious deals that parliament won't consent to.

Also worth stating that prior to the Scottish Referendum the Scottish Government published a detailed prospectus that they could reasonably have been held accountable against following a settlement with the UK Government. The Leave campaign did nothing of this sort (making it easier to appeal to a wider audience) thus leading to the current state of affairs where even Brexiteers don't agree on a way of leaving.

I would imagine that a Scottish settlement from the UK would be negotiated much more ably by the Scottish Government and they would not be trying to put up contradictory red lines that May and Johnson have both done in their negotiations.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

KenL said:



			I was born and brought up in Scotland but feel British before Scottish.

I hate the SNP and everything they stand for.  If independence happens I may well move south of the border if you'll have me.
		
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And give up Dunbar???

I think you'll stay for the golf. ðŸ˜†


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			The only reason the SNP are calling for another referendum is because they keep winning elections. Since 2014 they have won 2 Westminster elections, 1 Scottish Parliamentary election, 1 Scottish Council election and 1 European Parliamentary elections (i.e. won most votes and most seats in all of these polls).

*That kind of how democracy works. If you win an election, you are expected to implement what you advocated prior to that vote.*



In this scenario... a unionist party would have to win an election and find a majority in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum. Democracy rules.

*With regards to a confirmatory referendum... I don't believe this is necessary in all cases.* Parliaments should be able to make the decisions. If the UK Government had gone down the route of negotiating an EFTA / Customs Union agreement with the EU, then we'd have already left the EU and it would have likely been confirmed overwhelmingly by parliament. The reason that a 2nd referendum campaign is now close to succeeding is that the UK Gov have succeeded only in negotiating contentious deals that parliament won't consent to.

Also worth stating that prior to the Scottish Referendum the Scottish Government published a detailed prospectus that they could reasonably have been held accountable against following a settlement with the UK Government. The Leave campaign did nothing of this sort (making it easier to appeal to a wider audience) thus leading to the current state of affairs where even Brexiteers don't agree on a way of leaving.

I would imagine that a Scottish settlement from the UK would be negotiated much more ably by the Scottish Government and they would not be trying to put up contradictory red lines that May and Johnson have both done in their negotiations.
		
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Bold number 1 - Does that not apply to the Referendum as well? The Nationalists lost, should they not accept that or is Scotland going to be in this situation for the next X number of years.

Bold number 2 - Can you really pick and choose that way? I don't believe there should be a second EU ref as the first should be enacted but people seem to be selective about when things should and should not apply

In terms of a nationalist party winning elections, it was pointed out recently in this thread that many in Scotland like the policies of the SNP without agreeing with its view on independence. The Westminster and Holyrood elections do not give an automatic mandate for independence, the referendum does that.

In terms of negotiating a settlement I would hope that neither side would follow the UK - EU example, neither come out with glory. Ultimately though, I don't think the Westminster govt would block Scotland in the same way that the EU wants to block the UK, the interests are different.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			are you on drugs???
		
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Class A mind altering substances is my guess.


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some questions for independence fans:

If the SNP lost another independence vote how long before they would want another? What would the timescale be? Can you see an end to the discussion without actual independence or is Scotland now caught in a never ending cycle on this subject?

If a vote went in their favour, would they allow another vote if the clamour to rejoin the Union was strong? In particular, if negotiations went along similar lines as the Brexit negotiations would they give voters another chance once they 'had the knowledge of what leaving really meant'?


I have no issue with Scotland gaining independence, it is not an issue for non Scots as far as I can tell.
		
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While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland


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## KenL (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Would be amazed to see these reports. I see that you have linked them as they must be so readily available.

There are literally no reports or credible sources saying iScotland would not be able to join the EU. 

The best the Brit Nats can come up with are 'Scotland will be out of the EU and it might take a while to get back in... oh and you might need to join the Euro'. 

Reality is that iScotland would be very welcome in the EU. There is a huge amount of goodwill in the EU for Scotland and they would easily meet the criteria for membership which would likely be teed up after a Yes vote, prior to legal independence day.
		
Click to expand...

Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country.  Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies may walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland
		
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Yip, I've got my face paint and claymore at the ready.

"Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom"

Could introduce a "golf tax" that would bring in many millions.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

KenL said:



			Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country.  Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies *may* walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.
		
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That is "key" the bit in bold. More scaremongering.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

can wait to see wee Jimmy Krankies solution to their backstop


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## Grant85 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bold number 1 - Does that not apply to the Referendum as well? The Nationalists lost, should they not accept that or is Scotland going to be in this situation for the next X number of years.

Bold number 2 - Can you really pick and choose that way? I don't believe there should be a second EU ref as the first should be enacted but people seem to be selective about when things should and should not apply

In terms of a nationalist party winning elections, it was pointed out recently in this thread that many in Scotland like the policies of the SNP without agreeing with its view on independence. The Westminster and Holyrood elections do not give an automatic mandate for independence, the referendum does that.

In terms of negotiating a settlement I would hope that neither side would follow the UK - EU example, neither come out with glory. Ultimately though, I don't think the Westminster govt would block Scotland in the same way that the EU wants to block the UK, the interests are different.
		
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The referendum was in 2014 - during which the No side stated the only way to stay in the EU is to vote No. That has fallen flat within 2 years. And like I said, democracy didn't end on 19th September 2014 or 24th June 2016... everything is a process. Matters like this are settled when they are settled - there is clearly a growing appetite for another Scottish referendum and for Scotland to be independent. 

Saying 'you had a go 5 years ago, forget it' isn't really winning an argument, is it? And will surely only make the SNPs case for them that Scotland is not treated fairly in the 'union'. 

Yes there may be some people who vote SNP that don't support independence... but that is true of all parties winning elections. It's why we have a parliamentary democracy where policy and law is scrutinised before coming into being. 
Did every Tory voter who gave Cameron his majority in 2015 support coming out of the EU, or even having a referendum? Did many of them know that was even in his manifesto? 

Worth noting that support for the SNP used to be generally higher than support for independence, that is no longer the case with SNP at c.40% and independence nearer 50%. 

And remember, the SNP is not proposing independence simply after winning an election, its proposing a referendum.


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## Grant85 (Oct 16, 2019)

KenL said:



			Being in the EU will not be enough to save Scotland from the poverty that awaits it as an independent country.  Scotland could well be left in a very precarious position especially if rUK tells them to jog on in terms of a trade deal.

Many big financial companies may walk also, and let's not forget the preferential treatment Scotland gets for military work.
		
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If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us? 

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			While the SNP are in power is Scotland it will always be on the cards, its the main policy an Independant Scotland
		
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I accept it is blindingly obvious, they are not trying to hide that. Along with Brexit this seems to be an issue that has no end. The SNP seem well ensconced as the main party in Scotland so even if they lose another referendum this will raise its head again and again. 

It is tiring hearing about it over and over on the national news, it must be even more wearing on regional news north of the border.


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## KenL (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us? 

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.
		
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rUK is not desperate to keep us, I think they just show a respect for a 300 year long union that benefits everybody.

There are zero good reasons to leave the UK.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184485942037487616


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

I am absolutely certain that an Independent Scotland within the EU would attract much investment and re-settlement from the people of England.


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## lobthewedge (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			But to answer your question... the bonds of Westminster are just that... bonds. If the UK wants to lower VAT, raise corporation tax, declare war on Turkey etc. then Scotland has none or very little say in that.
Within the EU, they would be in a partnership. Look at the influence that Varadkar has over EU negotiations... he has been backed to the hilt by the EU as a small nation of around 1.5% of the EU population.
Compare that with the Scottish Government within the UK framework whose attempts at compromise (EFTA type proposal) were completely dismissed out of hand at the early stages with basically zero attempt to involve Scottish government or even Scottish politicians in the process as it has gone on.

So to say we would be governed even more tightly as an independent nation within the EU is just simply nonsense.  An iScottish government would have far more scope to set policy for Scotland, as opposed to simply hoping that policy for London / England matches or doesn't interfere with Scottish interests.

Would the EU set Scottish VAT? No
Would the EU force Scotland into a war? No
Would the EU prevent Scotland from having a referendum on anything? No
		
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i think varadkar has had the eu support because it suits their purposes. The ni issue was always going to be a political pawn in these negotiations, hence the reason varadkar has been pushed to the forefront and shown the support.  Iâ€™m fairly certain when it comes to the day to day runnings of the eu and the bigger decision they make , varadkar and his influence would get lost in amongst the other smaller nations of the eu, just as an independent Scotlandâ€™s would.

i donâ€™t doubt that an independent Scotland within the eu would have more scope to set policy for ourselves, only so long as as it doesnâ€™t interfere with eu interests, then I think we would realise how small a player we truly are on our own.  sure we could set our own vat and corporation tax rates, but chances are our budget would need signed off and scrutinised by the eu, especially if we were in the single currency.

would the eu force us into a war? Not as it currently stands no. but they are pushing for more political integration and there are plans for an european army. Whoâ€™s to say that in years to come scottish soldiers arent called upon to fight for eu interests entirely foreign to our own?

you talk about being ignored and not being heard in london, but I feel the snp and especially the current crop of mps they have in Westminster could never and will never see themselves as a partner in the uk. the chip on their shoulders and the independence blinkers they wear forbid them from it.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us?

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - *desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets*.
		
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Serious question, why is it not those things now whilst you are part of the UK? Why do a lot of your brightest people leave? do you think that will change once you become independent or will you continue to have a shrinking work age population?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49841460


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I accept it is blindingly obvious, they are not trying to hide that. Along with Brexit this seems to be an issue that has no end. The SNP seem well ensconced as the main party in Scotland so even if they lose another referendum this will raise its head again and again.

It is tiring hearing about it over and over on the national news, it must be even more wearing on regional news north of the border.
		
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In that case i apologise for Scotland boring you for wanting to  have decision over its own destiny, its future. and its independance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am absolutely certain that an Independent Scotland within the EU would attract much investment and re-settlement from the people of England.
		
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why are you so certain of that ? 
Surely Scotland would need to be accepted into the EU as an Independent country and thatâ€™s not a guarentee is it


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			i think varadkar has had the eu support because it suits their purposes. The ni issue was always going to be a political pawn in these negotiations, hence the reason varadkar has been pushed to the forefront and shown the support.  Iâ€™m fairly certain when it comes to the day to day runnings of the eu and the bigger decision they make , varadkar and his influence would get lost in amongst the other smaller nations of the eu, just as an independent Scotlandâ€™s would.

i donâ€™t doubt that an independent Scotland within the eu would have more scope to set policy for ourselves, only so long as as it doesnâ€™t interfere with eu interests, then I think we would realise how small a player we truly are on our own.  sure we could set our own vat and corporation tax rates, but chances are our budget would need signed off and scrutinised by the eu, especially if we were in the single currency.

would the eu force us into a war? Not as it currently stands no. but they are pushing for more political integration and there are plans for an european army. Whoâ€™s to say that in years to come scottish soldiers arent called upon to fight for eu interests entirely foreign to our own?

you talk about being ignored and not being heard in london, but I feel the snp and especially the current crop of mps they have in Westminster could never and will never see themselves as a partner in the uk. the chip on their shoulders and the independence blinkers they wear forbid them from it.
		
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The SNP as the third largest UK Political party represent Scotland at Westminster, that is what the people of Scotland voted for.
I have no idea which political party you support, but can you honestly see them getting anywhere near the popularity of the SNP within 10 years.
Scots Tories and Scots Labour votes combined more or less equate to the SNP vote.
Being a bit obvious, why should the SNP ever see themselves as a partner in the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			why are you so certain of that ?
Surely Scotland would need to be accepted into the EU as an Independent country and thatâ€™s not a guarentee is it
		
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Can you post up a credible link that says otherwise. [No Mail, Express or Telegraph stuff please]
One of your pals  tried that line earlier but still seems to be scratching about for one


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you post up a credible link that says otherwise. [No Mail, Express or Telegraph stuff please]
One of your pals  tried that line earlier but still seems to be scratching about for one
		
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Surely it should be you backing up your statement

So can you provide a credible link that says itâ€™s a guarentee that Scotland will be accepted into the EU ?


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## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Being a bit obvious, why should the SNP ever see themselves as a partner in the UK.

Click to expand...

Perhaps because it's better - for Scotland - to be a 'A Scotland oriented partner' than a 'bunch of rebellious Scots'!


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## lobthewedge (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP as the third largest UK Political party represent Scotland at Westminster, that is what the people of Scotland voted for.
I have no idea which political party you support, but can you honestly see them getting anywhere near the popularity of the SNP within 10 years.
Scots Tories and Scots Labour votes combined more or less equate to the SNP vote.
Being a bit obvious, why should the SNP ever see themselves as a partner in the UK.

Click to expand...

until the main parties sort themselves out, or another unionist party comes to the fore, no I donâ€™t see the snp losing many seats. but I donâ€™t feel they are a true representation of the people of Scotland at Westminster. Like I said and you have reinforced with your parting question, they have this unhealthy ingrained psyche that forbids them from acting for the good of the uk, only adding to the toxicity of politics at this time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Serious question, why is it not those things now whilst you are part of the UK? *Why do a lot of your brightest people leave? d*o you think that will change once you become independent or will you continue to have a shrinking work age population?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49841460

Click to expand...

The easy answer is that the brightest leave Scotland to help sort out the rest of the world - as historically we have always done 

For my part (not so bright) - when I graduated in the early 1980s the job opportunities that I was interested in were pretty much all in the south of England.  Things were rather desperate and limited - I actually applied for a job in Lochgelly...


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			If Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, why are they so keen to keep us?

Your statements are completely ill informed and neglect reality of an energy rich, resource rich nation - desirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.
		
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Energy and resource rich? There is undoubtedly the potential for that without question but that will need investment. Desireable for people to live and work? I'd happily visit and live in Edinburgh but I'd rather scoop out my eyes with a wooden spoon than live in Aberdeen, again, or Glasgow. Too many not very nice people for me - some very nice people, some of which we're still in contact with, but also too many real A-holes.

As for the EU would welcome Scotland; I think they would. But in terms of financial rules to join, I suggest you look at what the GDP is supposed to be to pass the criteria. It didn't stop the EU from relaxing those rules in 2010 for Eastern Europe but if they decide to re-adopt them Scotland won't get in.

Honestly, if Scotland did go for independence I'd hope they did a Norway. They have enough long term oil revenue to run the economy Norway-style, and make a real good positive go of it. If they go for EU membership they need to consider how the EU is currently forcing financial issues on Ireland and Italy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it should be you backing up your statement

So can you provide a credible link that says itâ€™s a guarentee that Scotland will be accepted into the EU ?
		
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Groan.....back to your old tricks I see.
Loads of stuff about that Scotland would be welcomed into the EU,
Sorry that does not suit your agenda and, as it is you, I cannot be @rsed to post them up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps because it's better - for Scotland - to be a 'A Scotland oriented partner' than a 'bunch of rebellious Scots'!
		
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I agree, but it is eye bleedingly obvious that it is an extremely one sided partnership


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## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The easy answer is that the brightest *leave Scotland to help sort out the rest of the world - as historically we have always done*

For my part (not so bright) - when I graduated in the early 1980s the job opportunities that I was interested in were pretty much all in the south of England.  Things were rather desperate and limited - I actually applied for a job in Lochgelly...
		
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To be honest, I know it was slightly tongue-in-cheek but I donâ€™t disagree with the bold bit, the question I was asking Grant is regarding his statement â€œdesirable for people to live & work in with a population of English speaking graduates that would be attractive to a range of businesses priced out of London or Dublin markets.â€ Why is it not possible to be that now but it will be as an independent country in the EU?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Groan.....back to your old tricks I see.
Loads of stuff about that Scotland would be welcomed into the EU,
Sorry that does not suit your agenda and, as it is you, I cannot be @rsed to post them up.

Click to expand...

old tricks ?

I guess you canâ€™t provide any links that state Scotland are guarenteed to be accept into the EU.



Doon frae Troon said:



			I am absolutely certain that an Independent Scotland within the EU would attract much investment and re-settlement from the people of England.
		
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So Iâ€™ll ask again - why are you so certain when there is no guarantee that 

The EU will accept Scotland

And an Independent Scotland within the EU will attract the investment ? 

Itâ€™s a simple polite question


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## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, but it is eye bleedingly obvious that it is an extremely one sided partnership
		
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Well, with a population ratio of about 10-12:1, expecting 'equal' partnership isn't really on! 'Equated' seems more appropriate!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, but it is eye bleedingly obvious that it is an extremely one sided partnership
		
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Totally agree. One side subsidises the other massively and the other side whines about how unfairly they're being treated while spending all the money.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			old tricks ?

I guess you canâ€™t provide any links that state Scotland are guarenteed to be accept into the EU.



So Iâ€™ll ask again - why are you so certain when there is no guarantee that

The EU will accept Scotland

And an Independent Scotland within the EU will attract the investment ?

Itâ€™s a simple polite question
		
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I know I said that I could not be @rsed but, as you seem to be struggling with the technology, just type in 'Would Scotland be welcomed back into the EU' and fill your boots.


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## Dando (Oct 16, 2019)

I hear that WJK has been caught doing a â€œHilaryâ€


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2019)

The EU's serious concerns are focused on their eastern borders and 'managing' the Russians.

An independent Scotland might get 'in' but with EU economic trends you might soon wish you weren't. Try retaining the oil wealth under those circumstances!


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Energy and resource rich? There is undoubtedly the potential for that without question but that will need investment. Desireable for people to live and work? I'd happily visit and live in Edinburgh *but I'd rather scoop out my eyes with a wooden spoon than live in Aberdeen, again, or Glasgow. Too many not very nice people for me - some very nice people, some of which we're still in contact with, but also too many real A-holes.*

As for the EU would welcome Scotland; I think they would. But in terms of financial rules to join, I suggest you look at what the GDP is supposed to be to pass the criteria. It didn't stop the EU from relaxing those rules in 2010 for Eastern Europe but if they decide to re-adopt them Scotland won't get in.

Honestly, if Scotland did go for independence I'd hope they did a Norway. They have enough long term oil revenue to run the economy Norway-style, and make a real good positive go of it. If they go for EU membership they need to consider how the EU is currently forcing financial issues on Ireland and Italy.
		
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Likewise in many parts of England, Wales. Ireland, NI - so not really a point worth making.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			until the main parties sort themselves out, or another unionist party comes to the fore, no I donâ€™t see the snp losing many seats. but I donâ€™t feel they are a true representation of the people of Scotland at Westminster. Like I said and you have reinforced with your parting question, they have this *unhealthy ingrained psyche that forbids them from acting for the good of the uk*, only adding to the toxicity of politics at this time.
		
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The clue is in the name of the party!

Simply put any country in the world should want their own identity and independance.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			The clue is in the name of the party!

Simply put any country in the world should want their own identity and independance.
		
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But thatâ€™s the biggest con of all, they donâ€™t really want independence, they want to jump into bed with the EU! Why do they not say it as it is? They just hate the English. (The snp that is, not Scots)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU's serious concerns are focused on their eastern borders and 'managing' the Russians.

An independent Scotland might get 'in' but with EU economic trends you might soon wish you weren't. Try retaining the oil wealth under those circumstances!
		
Click to expand...

What oil wealth?

Apart from anything else the oil should surely be the "property" of the Shetland Isles and many of the islanders do not appear keen on being part of an independent Scotland. 

Still I am sure the  SNP will be happy to grant them  a referendum.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			In that case i apologise for Scotland boring you for wanting to  have decision over its own destiny, its future. and its independance.
		
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Very good of you ðŸ˜. I'm happy for Scotland to have all of that, go for it. The tedious aspect is having the option to do all of that, rejecting it and then a vocal element not accepting the vote and wanting another go so soon after the last vote. It all sounds very familiar, doesn't it?

If the SNP lose again then they still wont accept it, the moans will continue. Yes, that is boring to listen to.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			What oil wealth?

Apart from anything else the oil should surely be the "property" of the Shetland Isles and many of the islanders do not appear keen on being part of an independent Scotland.

Still I am sure the  SNP will be happy to grant them  a referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Really???


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But thatâ€™s the biggest con of all, they donâ€™t really want independence, they want to jump into bed with the EU! Why do they not say it as it is? They just hate the English. (The snp that is, not Scots)
		
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Jeezus - thought I had read it all till I read that!


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very good of you ðŸ˜. I'm happy for Scotland to have all of that, go for it. The tedious aspect is having the option to do all of that, rejecting it and then a vocal element not accepting the vote and wanting another go so soon after the last vote. It all sounds very familiar, doesn't it?

If the SNP lose again then they still wont accept it, the moans will continue. Yes, that is boring to listen to.[/QUOTE

as has been said in manay many threads don't watch it then.... ?

does watching current affairs on any other subject bore you too and  what about the conflict in  Ireland did that bore you too?
		
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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 16, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Really???



Click to expand...

Well no one will know until the question  is asked of the islanders.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2019)

I don't watch programmes specifically dedicated to SNP politics or interviews with NS. However she and Ian Blackford are often on the news and radio being quoted so they can not be avoided. It would be fine if they spoke on different subjects but they are like a broken record. 

They aren't alone, listening to pure Brexit programmes with certain politicians has the same effect, churning out the same mantra over and over.

If politicians don't have anything fresh or positive to say then why would it be interesting to follow?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 16, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Jeezus - thought I had read it all till I read that!
		
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So what part of my post is inaccurate then?
The SNP want to leave the Union to be in the EU?


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't watch programmes specifically dedicated to SNP politics or interviews with NS. However she and Ian Blackford are often on the news and radio being quoted so they can not be avoided. It would be fine if they spoke on different subjects but they are like a broken record.

They aren't alone, listening to pure Brexit programmes with certain politicians has the same effect, churning out the same mantra over and over.

If politicians don't have anything fresh or positive to say then why would it be interesting to follow?
		
Click to expand...

really, if they are on the news its seen by the broadcaster as news worthy, itys thew same for us, i have to put up with crap about how great the SE of England is in pretty much every program, SE stories and weather dominate the national news, its as if anything north of Watford doesn't exist.. b o ho


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## Jacko_G (Oct 16, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Well no one will know until the question  is asked of the islanders.
		
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Well the fact that you think all of the oil goes ashore to Shetland or the Shetland fields are the only oil fields in Scotland shows the ignorance of your original post.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 16, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Well the fact that you think all of the oil goes ashore to Shetland or the Shetland fields are the only oil fields in Scotland shows the ignorance of your original post.
		
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My point did not relate to where the oil reaches these shores. It did refer to the location of the  majority of the more profitable fields.

In any event the whole  argument is  rapidly becoming irrelevant due to falling returns and reduced reliance upon fossil fuels.


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			My point did not relate to where the oil reaches these shores. It did refer to the location of the  majority of the more profitable fields.

In any event the whole  argument is  rapidly becoming irrelevant due to falling returns and reduced reliance upon fossil fuels.
		
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didn't the Uk gov re define the oil fields a few years ago so that a great may field that were in scotland are now in English waters?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			didn't the Uk gov re define the oil fields a few years ago so that a great may field that were in scotland are now in English waters?
		
Click to expand...

Whatever Westminster or Holyrood may attempt they cannot deny the physical location of any of the fields.


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## patricks148 (Oct 16, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Whatever Westminster or Holyrood may attempt they cannot deny the physical location of any of the fields.
		
Click to expand...

i think they re wrote the maritme map so a couple of the biggest field s were now in English waters


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think they re wrote the maritme map so a couple of the biggest field s were now in English waters
		
Click to expand...

Probably made specifically the property of 
Greater London. ðŸ˜—


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## chrisd (Oct 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			really, if they are on the news its seen by the broadcaster as new worthy, itys thew same for us, i have to put up with crap about how great the SE of England is in pretty much every program, SE stories and weather dominate the national news, its as if anything north of Watford doesn't exist.. b o ho
		
Click to expand...

Watford ! Blimey, that's way north


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So what part of my post is inaccurate then?
The SNP want to leave the Union to be in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Groundhog day AGAIN.
You know the answer to that, it has been posted up on here on many occasions, one only a few posts ago.
Please pay more attention or switch the broken record off.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 17, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184061995458412544
There is the Sun doing what it does best...â€¦â€¦...lie and mis-inform.
England/Wales issue.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Groundhog day AGAIN.
You know the answer to that, it has been posted up on here on many occasions, one only a few posts ago.
Please pay more attention or switch the broken record off.
		
Click to expand...

Câ€™mon Doon you know itâ€™s being going on for years. Just because you find it uncomfortable doesnâ€™t mean it isnâ€™t true. 

This twitter thread is pretty damning by people who see it everyday 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147201115127259136
also old Lego head just pays lip service 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....g-senior-councillor-anti-english-remarks/amp/

So casual 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....councillor-moira-shemilt-row-liz-kershaw/amp/

Whatâ€™s  Sadiq motive then...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....allels-scottish-nationalism-racism-sadiq-khan


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## Dando (Oct 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Groundhog day AGAIN.
You know the answer to that, it has been posted up on here on many occasions, one only a few posts ago.
Please pay more attention or switch the broken record off.
		
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Mr broken record telling someone to switch the broken record off ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So what part of my post is inaccurate then?
The SNP want to leave the Union *to* be in the EU?
		
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I believe 'and' or 'but' would be more accurate!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Câ€™mon Doon you know itâ€™s being going on for years. Just because you find it uncomfortable doesnâ€™t mean it isnâ€™t true.

This twitter thread is pretty damning by people who see it everyday


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147201115127259136
also old Lego head just pays lip service
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....g-senior-councillor-anti-english-remarks/amp/

So casual
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....councillor-moira-shemilt-row-liz-kershaw/amp/

Whatâ€™s  Sadiq motive then...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....allels-scottish-nationalism-racism-sadiq-khan

Click to expand...

Every country has it's share of racist idiots, as I am sure you know.
The difference being that the Yes movement in Scotland deals with and expels them 
Whereas it is pretty obvious that the right wing political parties in England seem to encourage them.

I notice that you did not post up any of the 'English Scots for Independence' banners. These are generally much more visible than the very rare one that you managed to find.

BTW nothing uncomfortable about my reply [and others]to you about Scotland and the EU
Why you chose to reply in this off topic manner only you will know.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Every country has it's share of racist idiots, as I am sure you know.
The difference being that the Yes movement in Scotland deals with and expels them
Whereas it is pretty obvious that the right wing political parties in England seem to encourage them.

I notice that you did not post up any of the 'English Scots for Independence' banners. These are generally much more visible than the very rare one that you managed to find.

BTW nothing uncomfortable about my reply [and others]to you about Scotland and the EU
Why you chose to reply in this off topic manner only you will know.

Click to expand...

Hardly off topic is it? The title of the thread is The SNP. I posted that the SNP are anti English. I know the majority of Scots are not, that is why I was specific in my posting.
and yes I did see the â€œEnglish Scots (whatever that might be?) for independenceâ€ and they are perfectly entitled to that minority view. 

if you will allow me a SILH type ramble....when we visit the Highlands we are always well received but if we stray a little further south the â€œBanterâ€ can be a pretty strong. Not against my Cumbrian wife, just against SE England  me. I laugh it off and give it back in spades, but it does go on. Am I offended? Nah course not I think itâ€™s part of what makes OUR country great.


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## stefanovic (Oct 17, 2019)

I think the English should get out of Scotland ASAP and the Scots (while still welcome in England) should consider their position.

PS. You accuse me of being on drugs. I am only on drugs for 2 medical conditions I've had all my life. I've never taken recreational drugs, never smoked tobacco, hardly ever drunk alcohol because I don't enjoy it.
I've also had 2 cancers. Prostate I've survived now for 12 years after an original stage 4 terminal diagnosis.

As there has been some discussion here about prostate cancer, let me introduce you to the only pathway.
If there something different about your water works, go to the doctor. If he suspects cancer you will be referred to a specialist. If the latter suspects cancer you will be sent for tests. If the test reveal cancer then the next person will be the oncologist.
This is your lucky day. The oncologist is there to save your life.

For 2 types of skin cancer I've had 2 operations. 

You need to stop referring to medical conditions which you know nothing about.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



*I think the English should get out of Scotland ASAP* and the Scots (while still welcome in England) should consider their position.

PS. You accuse me of being on drugs. I am only on drugs for 2 medical conditions I've had all my life. I've never taken recreational drugs, never smoked tobacco, hardly ever drunk alcohol because I don't enjoy it.
I've also had 2 cancers. Prostate I've survived now for 12 years after an original stage 4 terminal diagnosis.

As there has been some discussion here about prostate cancer, let me introduce you to the only pathway.
If there something different about your water works, go to the doctor. If he suspects cancer you will be referred to a specialist. If the latter suspects cancer you will be sent for tests. If the test reveal cancer then the next person will be the oncologist.
This is your lucky day. The oncologist is there to save your life.

For 2 types of skin cancer I've had 2 operations.

You need to stop referring to medical conditions which you know nothing about.
		
Click to expand...

And pray tell, why do you think this?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			And pray tell, why do you think this?
		
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I don't know that anyone wants to know the answer to that.


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			And pray tell, why do you think this?
		
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Greig dear boy don't expect a coherent answer


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## stefanovic (Oct 17, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			And pray tell, why do you think this?
		
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Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.


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## drdel (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war.
		
Click to expand...

An Arms race is always good for the economy. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Jacko_G (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## GreiginFife (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.
		
Click to expand...

I need to know the history of my own country? You really are a condescending prick.

I have lived in Scotland almost every day of my 41 years and never once have I seen any untoward interaction with the English. So the near 150 English men and women in the company I work with should go home because no one likes them? My mother-in-law should go home because no one likes her? Pish!
Scotland is NOT a sectarian society. It has people in it who are sectarian  but to label an entire population sectarian is just to show how utterly idiotic you are. Should we conclude that England is a neo-nazi society because you have neo-nazi organisations amongst you?

You have a view of a country you know nothing about beyond possibly reading some wikipedia entries and trying to sound more clever than everyone else. I would suggest that for every English person in Scotland that's experienced a problem, there are as many Scots in England who have experienced the same. It does not mean that everyone in either country dislikes the other as an entirety.

No wonder someone questioned if you are on drugs with the utter pish that you dribble.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but you really are a troll


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.
		
Click to expand...

and you say you are not on drugs


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## BrianM (Oct 17, 2019)

I donâ€™t get this anti English thing in Scotland, there are loads of English people living in the Highlands and there all very nice people, we even socialise together believe it or not ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## BrianM (Oct 17, 2019)

As for the oil, as someone who works in the industry, there is still plenty of oil left, more difficult to get, maybe, but technology and well designing is moving forward all the time, Hurricane energy shares are well worth it ðŸ˜‰ðŸ‘Œ


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## PieMan (Oct 17, 2019)

BrianM said:



			I donâ€™t get this anti English thing in Scotland, there are loads of English people living in the Highlands and there all very nice people, we even socialise together believe it or not ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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They must be the truly mad English people then........!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## BrianM (Oct 17, 2019)

PieMan said:



			They must be the truly mad English people then........!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

We arenâ€™t that bad really, good whisky and cracking golf courses makes for good times, whatever the nationality ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

BrianM said:



			We arenâ€™t that bad really, good whisky and cracking golf courses makes for good times, whatever the nationality ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

When we visit Nethy Bridge this is our experience. Enjoy both immensely. ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

I have lived just outside Peterhead - nasty place but people nice , lived on Outer Hebrides twice and loved it there. Had a great time


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			...
No wonder someone questioned if you are on drugs with the utter pish that you dribble.
		
Click to expand...

And he has stated that he IS!


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## GreiginFife (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And he has stated that he IS!
		
Click to expand...

Apparently not the good kind though...


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

BrianM said:



			I donâ€™t get this anti English thing in Scotland, there are loads of English people living in the Highlands and there all very nice people, we even socialise together believe it or not ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

no we dont


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			When we visit Nethy Bridge this is our experience. Enjoy both immensely. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

but then people of nethy bridge are only after your money


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but then people of nethy bridge are only after your money

Click to expand...

Nah but Iâ€™m after theirs!ðŸ˜

Love going up there but would never go again at New Year. Jesus what a depressing spectacle Hogmanay is! â˜¹ï¸


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Nah but Iâ€™m after theirs!ðŸ˜

Love going up there but would never go again at New Year. Jesus what a depressing spectacle Hogmanay is! â˜¹ï¸
		
Click to expand...

It's depressing enough the rest of the time let alone new year


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## User62651 (Oct 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			It's depressing enough the rest of the time let alone new year
		
Click to expand...

Steady, I often go there at New Year, not the place for night life I agree but walking or mountain biking in the snow through the native pinewoods is bliss. Decent cafe by the bridge too. Aviemore or Grantown both close if u need some hogmanay activity. Personally can't be bothered with Hogmanay these days, for the youngsters really.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2019)

There is a bit of support in Scotland for Nicola to trade support for LBJ's worse than Mays Brexit deal for a Section 30 order.
Pulling up the drawbridge on our friends and relatives in England/Wales/NI who are remainers will be  quite uncomfortable.
But sometimes needs must.

Any one else recall LBJ strongly stating that he would NEVER support an Irish Sea border.


----------



## Dando (Oct 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a bit of support in Scotland for Nicola to trade support for LBJ's worse than Mays Brexit deal for a Section 30 order.
Pulling up the drawbridge on our friends and relatives in England/Wales/NI who are remainers will be  quite uncomfortable.
But sometimes needs must.

Any one else recall LBJ strongly stating that he would NEVER support an Irish Sea border.
		
Click to expand...

anyone else recall MP's stating they would honour the result of the referendum


----------



## Robster59 (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Why do I think the English should get out? Because in my experience they are not liked in Scotland. 'Spend and then go home' is the mantra.
Scotland is a sectarian society. When I've been there I'm asked why I'm there when I'm just there for recreation. Other people have reported this.
You need to know the history. The wars of Scottish independence date back to the 13th Century. Later, the English rebelled against the Stuart dynasty. It was replaced by the Hanoverians from Germany (what a relief!). Then the Scots invaded England and marched as far as Derby.
The 2014 referendum was just the first battle in the latest war. Then the posters said 'It's Still Yes'.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say that you are remarkably consistent at spouting absolute sweeping tripe whenever you come on here, based on your own prejudices with little knowledge of the facts.  I'm English and have lived in Scotland for 15 years.  During that time I have made many friends, been made Captain of my local golf club and deal with lots of customers in Scotland.
During that time I have had NO, NONE, ZERO, issues or animosity because I'm English.  On the contrary I've found everyone to be generally warm, friendly and generous (forget the mean Scottish myth, that's all hails back to (I think) Harry Lauder, a Scottish comedian who made being mean part of his act).  Yes, there's banter but I find that if you give as good as you get in a light-hearted way then people accept you even more.  (If they wind me up too much I just say I'm up here to look after the colonies! ).
In Glasgow the accent can seem aggressive and it seems most people seem to have Tourettes with language a step above anywhere I've ever been before but it's just part of the way they speak.
Most of the people I know are against Independence (referring to Nicola as "The Nippy Wee Sweetie") but that is not necessarily representative of everyone in Scotland obviously. 
There is Sectarianism in Glasgow which, frankly, is depressing and needs to be addressed.  However that is mainly restricted to the football and the bloody awful Orange marches.  I keep well out of it. 
So in conclusion, Scotland is a great country, and I have no desire to go back to England and it really annoys me when I see people like yourself make such ill-informed statements.


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## stefanovic (Oct 18, 2019)

That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.


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## BrianM (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

You are an idiot ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

Can 'we' (i.e. rest of the UK) annex Scotland's coastal areas though and keep their links courses?


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2019)

BrianM said:



			You are an idiot ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Have a big 

I honestly believe his opinions are so extreme he's actually saying it for effect and an argument. Probably pulled the wings of flies as a child.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

I think I have understood now. You are such an immeasurable bawbag that it's just you that Scotland doesn't like, hence your experience. 

I judge people not by their race, colour, creed, religion, age, gender or sexuality but by whether or not they are a complete bawbag. You sir have my approval of bawbagdom.


----------



## Backache (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

You didn't need to take the sign 'Please leave your brain at the border' literally.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 18, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Can 'we' (i.e. rest of the UK) annex Scotland's coastal areas though and keep their links courses? 

Click to expand...

Why not, you took our oil and fishing waters! May as well claim the links too!


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Why not, you took our oil and fishing waters! May as well claim the links too!



Click to expand...

That's good to know - phew!!!


----------



## Robster59 (Oct 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			That's good. You can keep Scotland with its politics, its weather, its awful diet, its midges, its accent.
Hope they get their independence ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

I've finally decided you are just a TROLL determined to undermine any thread with stupid, biased and totally unfounded comments which have no basis in fact. I've seen it on the caravan discussion, the rugby discussion and on this thread.
And if someone gives you a considered response, your only answer is to come up with childish little statements like this.  You're totally lost when it comes to logical debate.
I am calling you a troll as otherwise to think that there is someone like you out there who is really like that is far too depressing to comprehend.
Don't bother responding to me as I am now blocking you, you are really NOT worth the effort.


----------



## User62651 (Oct 18, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			I have to say that you are remarkably consistent at spouting absolute sweeping tripe whenever you come on here, based on your own prejudices with little knowledge of the facts.  I'm English and have lived in Scotland for 15 years.  During that time I have made many friends, been made Captain of my local golf club and deal with lots of customers in Scotland.
During that time I have had NO, NONE, ZERO, issues or animosity because I'm English.  On the contrary I've found everyone to be generally warm, friendly and generous (forget the mean Scottish myth, that's all hails back to (I think) Harry Lauder, a Scottish comedian who made being mean part of his act).  Yes, there's banter but I find that if you give as good as you get in a light-hearted way then people accept you even more.  (If they wind me up too much I just say I'm up here to look after the colonies! ).
In Glasgow the accent can seem aggressive and it seems most people seem to have Tourettes with language a step above anywhere I've ever been before but it's just part of the way they speak.
Most of the people I know are against Independence (referring to Nicola as "The Nippy Wee Sweetie") but that is not necessarily representative of everyone in Scotland obviously.
There is Sectarianism in Glasgow which, frankly, is depressing and needs to be addressed.  However that is mainly restricted to the football and the bloody awful Orange marches.  I keep well out of it.
So in conclusion, Scotland is a great country, and I have no desire to go back to England and it really annoys me when I see people like yourself make such ill-informed statements.
		
Click to expand...

Nice words and I would reciprocate - my cousin and family who live in Staffs have always been made very welcome in England, they like it down there, have been there maybe 35 years, will be there all their days I expect, have retained their Scottish brogue but their 4 kids are all full on English. I have several English work colleagues and I don't believe they have had any problems up here, 

I have however heard of the odd little village that doesn't like incomers but anyone from outside of the county let alone country would be deemed an outsider = depleted gene pool alert.


----------



## GreiginFife (Oct 18, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			I've finally decided you are just a TROLL determined to undermine any thread with stupid, biased and totally unfounded comments which have no basis in fact. I've seen it on the caravan discussion, the rugby discussion and on this thread.
I am calling you a troll as otherwise to think that there is someone like you out there who is really like that is far too depressing to comprehend.
Don't bother responding to me as I am now blocking you, you are really NOT worth the effort.





Click to expand...


On the contrary, I am interested to see where his bawbaggery takes him next. Its a veritable journey of the scrotum ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			On the contrary, I am interested to see where his bawbaggery takes him next. Its a veritable journey of the scrotum ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

True, my immediate reaction was to block him/her but he/she has become quite entertaining.
He/she seems to have come onto the scene just when the OP disappeared, could it be just co-incidence.
Amazed at the number of normally sensible folk have replied to him/her.


----------



## Dando (Oct 18, 2019)

BrianM said:



			You are an idiot ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

there's a village out there looking for him - obviously not a Scottish village.
in fact the village is probably over the moon he's gone missing so they can get a useful idiot


Doon frae Troon said:



			True, my immediate reaction was to block him/her but he/she has become quite entertaining.
He/she seems to have come onto the scene just when the OP disappeared, could it be just co-incidence.
Amazed at the number of normally sensible folk have replied to him/her. 

Click to expand...

have you just assumed their gender - no doubt it/they will moan about that next!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			True, my immediate reaction was to block him/her but he/she has become quite entertaining.
He/she seems to have come onto the scene just when the OP disappeared, could it be just co-incidence.
Amazed at the number of normally sensible folk have replied to him/her. 

Click to expand...

I guess itâ€™s the same when people reply to your good self.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			...
In Glasgow the accent can seem aggressive and it seems most people seem to have Tourettes with language a step above anywhere I've ever been before but it's just part of the way they speak.
...
		
Click to expand...

Back home, where the different UK accents seemed to stand out/be recognisable far more than they do, to me, now, it was the Glaswegian female way of speaking - not simply the accent, but the speed - that made it very hard to follow. Mind you, my Grandmother, who left West Calder (4 or 5 months pregnant and married a month or so ) in 1905 was still difficult to understand in the '60s - after 13 kids (11 lived to adult-hood) and 3 husbands!


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## Robster59 (Oct 18, 2019)

In fairness, when I moved to Glasgow some people up here struggled with my accent (I can't understand why as in Widnes we speak the perfect Queen's English ). 
The good thing is, coming from the North West of England, the humour is very similar (sarcastic).


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			I think I have understood now. You are such an immeasurable *bawbag* that it's just you that Scotland doesn't like, hence your experience.

I judge people not by their race, colour, creed, religion, age, gender or sexuality but by whether or not they are a complete *bawbag*. You sir have my approval of *bawbagdom*.
		
Click to expand...

A wonderfully descriptive expression that's entirely appropriate! Ranks with 'outwith' and 'pish' as instantly recognisable as from/by a Scot!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A wonderfully descriptive expression that's entirely appropriate! Ranks with 'outwith' and 'pish' as instantly recognisable as from/by a Scot!
		
Click to expand...

You can actually buy Bawbags for your bawbag.
My grandson has a couple of pairs.
https://www.bawbags.com/?utm_source...wbags underwear&utm_content=Bawbags Underwear


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## Robster59 (Oct 18, 2019)

GreiginFife said:              
    
I think I have understood now. You are such an immeasurable [B said:
			
		


			bawbag[/B] that it's just you that Scotland doesn't like, hence your experience.

I judge people not by their race, colour, creed, religion, age, gender or sexuality but by whether or not they are a complete *bawbag*. You sir have my approval of *bawbagdom*.        

Foxholer
A wonderfully descriptive expression that's entirely appropriate! Ranks with 'outwith' and 'pish' as instantly recognisable as from/by a Scot!
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree that there are some wonderfully descriptive terms used by people in Scotland. 
A friend of mine wears these
Bawbag underwear


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

I forgot to mention the other pretty common 'Scottish' one too - that I'm off to partake in..A Fish Supper! First heard used by my Scottish Aunt when we visited with Dad's visits to his brother, but heard many years later as afters following a round at Lanark!


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## stefanovic (Oct 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			True, my immediate reaction was to block him/her but he/she has become quite entertaining.
He/she seems to have come onto the scene just when the OP disappeared, could it be just co-incidence.
Amazed at the number of normally sensible folk have replied to him/her. 

Click to expand...

If you want to hear no other opinions than your own, then indeed listen to the likes of the SNP, where it's only black or white.
I've had to put up with a lot of nasty things by certain memebers here about being addicted to some substance when I have never taken any form of drugs other than for medicinal purposes.
I do not drink alcohol and have never smoked or vaped in my life. You would not have liked my constant health problems. So be grateful if you have no respiratory disease, skin problem or cancer. 
There was a time when I liked Scotland, but these days I view it in a different way. Don't you ever change your mind?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 19, 2019)

The SNP Lord Provost of Glasgow proving that all politicians are cut from the same self serving cloth......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49971577


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## Jacko_G (Oct 19, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			If you want to hear no other opinions than your own, then indeed listen to the likes of the SNP, where it's only black or white.
I've had to put up with a lot of nasty things by certain memebers here about being addicted to some substance when I have never taken any form of drugs other than for medicinal purposes.
I do not drink alcohol and have never smoked or vaped in my life. You would not have liked my constant health problems. So be grateful if you have no respiratory disease, skin problem or cancer.
There was a time when I liked Scotland, but these days I view it in a different way. Don't you ever change your mind?
		
Click to expand...

Your posts have gone from foul and downright abusive to playing a sympathy card?


----------



## stefanovic (Oct 19, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Your posts have gone from foul and downright abusive to playing a sympathy card?
		
Click to expand...

Rude (maybe) but never abusive.
I don't want any sympathy. I was classed as disabled for the first 18 years of my life. Then I pulled it round. 
I have played half a dozen sports. My golf handicap at its lowest was 10. Give you a game.
I still walk about 2000 miles a year. I'll also challenge you to a run and a cycle race if you like.
I can also perform about 200 yoga postures. A flexible spine leads to flexible arteries.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 19, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Rude (maybe) but never abusive.
I don't want any sympathy. I was classed as disabled for the first 18 years of my life. Then I pulled it round.
I have played half a dozen sports. My golf handicap at its lowest was 10. Give you a game.
I still walk about 2000 miles a year. I'll also challenge you to a run and a cycle race if you like.
I can also perform about 200 yoga postures. A flexible spine leads to flexible arteries.
		
Click to expand...

Please stop posting, its getting embarrassing now.

(PS - I don't own a bike and I preferred Tai Chi to Yoga)


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The SNP Lord Provost of Glasgow proving that all politicians are cut from the same self serving cloth......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49971577

Click to expand...

For a bit of balance on yet another SNP baaaad story.... she had access to an historic Â£5000 pa budget for Provost clothing allowance.
This allows elected Provosts who are not rich an ability to dress accordingly whilst representing the City at home and abroad.
For the two year period quoted she was actually Â£2000 under budget.

I agree that some of the things she bought were totally inappropriate and she should have known better, but I would still support the concept of the clothing budget.
Strange how folk objected when it is an SNP Provost but have kept quiet when many Labour Provosts have probably spent in a similar manner.


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Please stop posting, its getting embarrassing now.

(PS - I don't own a bike and I preferred Tai Chi to Yoga)
		
Click to expand...

I prefer Dim Sum to Tai Chi. Tai Chi is too greasy for me.


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## patricks148 (Oct 19, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Rude (maybe) but never abusive.
I don't want any sympathy. I was classed as disabled for the first 18 years of my life. Then I pulled it round.
I have played half a dozen sports. My golf handicap at its lowest was 10. Give you a game.
I still walk about 2000 miles a year. I'll also challenge you to a run and a cycle race if you like.
I can also perform about 200 yoga postures. A flexible spine leads to flexible arteries.
		
Click to expand...

all well and good but how will you get out of the mental home to take up any of these challenges??


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Another great image capture for Indyref2 use.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185559584527831045


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2019)

And of course Ian Blackford and the rest of the SNP are saints.

People in glasshouses springs to mind...


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## patricks148 (Oct 19, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			If you want to hear no other opinions than your own, then indeed listen to the likes of the SNP, where it's only black or white.
I've had to put up with a lot of nasty things by certain memebers here about being addicted to some substance when I have never taken any form of drugs other than for medicinal purposes.
I do not drink alcohol and have never smoked or vaped in my life. You would not have liked my constant health problems. So be grateful if you have no respiratory disease, skin problem or cancer.
*There was a time when I liked Scotland,* but these days I view it in a different way. Don't you ever change your mind?
		
Click to expand...

Oh no, how will Scotland ever cope


----------



## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Oh no, how will Scotland ever cope

Click to expand...

No doubt thereâ€™s thousands of your fellow country men crying... tears of absolute joy that heâ€™ll not step foot over the border although that means weâ€™re stuck with him.
Might go and park my caravan outside his house for a laugh


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## KenL (Oct 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For a bit of balance on yet another SNP baaaad story.... she had access to an historic Â£5000 pa budget for Provost clothing allowance.
This allows elected Provosts who are not rich an ability to dress accordingly whilst representing the City at home and abroad.
For the two year period quoted she was actually Â£2000 under budget.

I agree that some of the things she bought were totally inappropriate and she should have known better, but I would still support the concept of the clothing budget.
Strange how folk objected when it is an SNP Provost but have kept quiet when many Labour Provosts have probably spent in a similar manner.
		
Click to expand...

Embarrassing that you think you should defend her.  It is a total disgrace to benefit in this way from the public purse especially given the amount of children living below the poverty line in Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

KenL said:



			Embarrassing that you think you should defend her.  It is a total disgrace to benefit in this way from the public purse especially given the amount of children living below the poverty line in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Eh...â€¦..did you actually read my post.
I did not defend her, I just explained how the budget system has worked for many years.
I supported the need for the budget. 
Especially if it involves the purchase or hire of suitable clothing for the varied functions and  tasks a Provost has to undertake. ie white tie dinners and foreign visits.


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## KenL (Oct 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Eh...â€¦..did you actually read my post.
I did not defend her, I just explained how the budget system has worked for many years.
I supported the need for the budget. 
Especially if it involves the purchase or hire of suitable clothing for the varied functions and  tasks a Provost has to undertake. ie white tie dinners and foreign visits.
		
Click to expand...

Whether a budget exists or not is irrelevant, decent morals should be enough to not use it.

Didn't defend her? Oh yes you did!


----------



## Jacko_G (Oct 20, 2019)

KenL said:



			Whether a budget exists or not is irrelevant, decent morals should be enough to not use it.

Didn't defend her? Oh yes you did!
		
Click to expand...


Are you only upset due to this person being part of a certain political party? There was a previous Labour Lord Provost who did time for house breaking and assault, there was also another who was expelled for "trips for votes" and was nicknamed Lazarus for the amount of times he came back. Politics is a "dirty business". 

I have friends with company cars who "may" do some creative figures to cover mileage receipts. I know of Golf Club Captains who used expenses/budget to their full advantage and other who paid for everything out of their own pocket. Morals again depend on the individual and what they think they are entitled to/can get away with.


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## KenL (Oct 20, 2019)

Zero to do with political association, morals are morals.


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## stefanovic (Oct 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I don't own a bike and I preferred Tai Chi to Yoga
		
Click to expand...

Nah. Tai Chi takes years to learn. I do Qigong which Tai Chi is based on and can be learned quickly. The results are the same.
This one is my favourite.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2019)

KenL said:



			Zero to do with political association, morals are morals.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I do not believe you re political association, perhaps you should look at your own morals.


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## KenL (Oct 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry but I do not believe you re political association, perhaps you should look at your own morals.
		
Click to expand...

Aye, whatever!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2019)

Hang on, I thought the Tories were going to save the Scottish fishing industry after Brexit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186032979203805185


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hang on, I thought the Tories were going to save the Scottish fishing industry after Brexit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186032979203805185

Click to expand...

Hang on, l thought Scotland wanted the EU to maintain control of their fishing.


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2019)

The jailing of the anti EU Catalan politicians for conducting an election probably explains the fanatical Federalism of the SFP...oops SNP ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## spongebob59 (Oct 25, 2019)

Good question


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187761673148481538


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## Fade and Die (Oct 25, 2019)

If the Scots were to leave how much of the Â£39Bn would they be liable for?ðŸ˜


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## spongebob59 (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If the Scots were to leave how much of the Â£39Bn would they be liable for?ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

convert that to euros as that will be their currency  ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If the Scots were to leave how much of the Â£39Bn would they be liable for?ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

They have less than 10% of the population, ergo less than 10%. I suppose you could say the same about the UK's debt, and the value of the UK's assets.

TBH, until it becomes a reality you're just poking a stick at an angry bear. What's the point?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			They have less than 10% of the population, ergo less than 10%. I suppose you could say the same about the UK's debt, and the value of the UK's assets.

TBH, until it becomes a reality you're just poking a stick at an angry bear. *What's the point?[*/QUOTE]


Fun....I even put a winky smile in for the terminally dull.ðŸ˜

Seems the SNP like most socialists  are spending way above their means, big deficit already....
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

That's what you get when you have a socialist govt looking at creating Utopia without considering the cost. Equally, maybe the SNP are 'buying' independence votes.


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## Robster59 (Oct 25, 2019)

I've been saying for years that the SNP have been writing cheques they can't afford.  In my mind they've been trying to but votes and is now coming home to roost. 
I really don't know where they intend to get the money. I already pay more income tax because I live in Scotland and I can see that being worse.


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## patricks148 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's what you get when you have a socialist govt looking at creating Utopia without considering the cost. Equally, maybe the SNP are 'buying' independence votes.
		
Click to expand...

as opposed to the tories making everyone but the people that caused it pay for the crash... i'll take the SNP thanks


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			as opposed to the tories making everyone but the people that caused it pay for the crash... i'll take the SNP thanks
		
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Your welcome to that extreme too.


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## HughJars (Oct 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If the Scots were to leave how much of the Â£39Bn would they be liable for?ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

Presumably none of it as we're continually told that it's the UK that's a member, not Scotland


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Presumably none of it as we're continually told that it's the UK that's a member, not Scotland
		
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So, as a goodwill gesture, Scotland might want to return all the EU money they've had back to the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			So, as a goodwill gesture, Scotland might want to return all the EU money they've had back to the UK.
		
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WHOOSH...â€¦...â€¦..last time I looked Scotland was still in the UK.


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## HughJars (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			So, as a goodwill gesture, Scotland might want to return all the EU money they've had back to the UK.
		
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And rUK returning all the retained revenue that we don't get as well? I'll go for that aye.


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			WHOOSH...â€¦...â€¦..last time I looked Scotland was still in the UK.

Click to expand...

Read the post to which it was a 'tongue-in-cheek reply.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			Read the post to which it was a 'tongue-in-cheek reply.
		
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'Foot in Mouth' would have been nearer.


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'Foot in Mouth' would have been nearer. 

Click to expand...

No chance, at my age toe nail clipping is enough of a challenge


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## spongebob59 (Oct 28, 2019)

Speculating on the radio the the snp want the election out the way before Salmond the Hutt  goes on trial as WJK may be implicated.


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## HughJars (Oct 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Speculating on the radio the the snp want the election out the way before Salmond the Hutt  goes on trial as WJK may be implicated.
		
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I'm thinking TalkRadio or Maajid right?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

BBC Breaking News

@BBCBreaking
Â·
39m

Alex Salmond appears in court charged with sexually assaulting 10 women while serving as Scotland's first minister


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## Jacko_G (Nov 21, 2019)

^^^^^^

Stop the bus - groundbreaking news that nobody knew about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 21, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			^^^^^^

Stop the bus - groundbreaking news that nobody knew about.
		
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Apparently he looked a little smug as he walked to court.  Salmond ALWAYS looks a bit smug...he wasn't listening to his mum when the wind changed direction after he'd won at pitch-penny


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## ger147 (Nov 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



BBC Breaking News

@BBCBreaking
Â·
39m

Alex Salmond appears in court charged with sexually assaulting 10 women while serving as Scotland's first minister
		
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Like everyone else, he is innocent until proven guilty and is entitled to his day in court to defend himself against these allegations.

From a neutral observer point of view on the outside looking in, 10 witnesses testifying against you is a lot of witnesses.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 21, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Like everyone else, he is innocent until proven guilty and is entitled to his day in court to defend himself against these allegations.

From a neutral observer point of view on the outside looking in, *10 witnesses testifying against you is a lot of witnesses*.
		
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Thats what I was thinking, didn't realise they case was that big against him


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## Slime (Nov 21, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Like everyone else, *he is innocent until proven guilty* and is entitled to his day in court to defend himself against these allegations.

From a neutral observer point of view on the outside looking in, 10 witnesses testifying against you is a lot of witnesses.
		
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.......................... in the eyes of the law.


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## patricks148 (Nov 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apparently he looked a little smug as he walked to court.  Salmond ALWAYS looks a bit smug...he wasn't listening to his mum when the wind changed direction after he'd won at pitch-penny
		
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a very slick polition, but also very unpleasant, i've the misfortune to have to deal with him a few times with work, its little supris to me there are 10 witneses or what he's charged with.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203292752672415745


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## Jacko_G (Dec 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203292752672415745

Click to expand...

Who takes part in those polls? I've never once been asked/canvassed to take part in a poll. I take all these with a rather large bucket full of salt!


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## GreiginFife (Dec 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Who takes part in those polls? I've never once been asked/canvassed to take part in a poll. I take all these with a rather large bucket full of salt!
		
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They were out in force in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago. Few outside Waverley and some on St Andrews Sq, more on George St and a few on the corner of Hannover and Queen St. Seemed to be getting a load of folks to stop too. They asked me and I just said "sorry, I don't speak English" and walked on. Always confuses them for enough time to be on my way.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 7, 2019)

GreiginFife said:



			They were out in force in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago. Few outside Waverley and some on St Andrews Sq, more on George St and a few on the corner of Hannover and Queen St. Seemed to be getting a load of folks to stop too. They asked me and I just said "sorry, I don't speak English" and walked on. Always confuses them for enough time to be on my way.
		
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So a few people stopped in Scotland's second city and that is considered a solid reliable cross section of society to publish utter urine?

Lol, can't trust those politicians.

😜


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## ger147 (Dec 7, 2019)

Opinion polls...


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## stefanovic (Dec 13, 2019)

Ideal opportunity now to get Scotland and the SNP out of our hair.
They are holding England back and there is no point in pandering to them any more.
Just wish they would declare UDI.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Ideal opportunity now to get Scotland and the SNP out of our hair.
They are holding England back and there is no point in pandering to them any more.
Just wish they would declare UDI.
		
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How on earth are the SNP going to be 'holding England back'.   And in what way is 'England' pandering to the SNP? Explain please.

And what's happened to NI and Wales...?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Ideal opportunity now to get Scotland and the SNP out of our hair.
They are holding England back and there is no point in pandering to them any more.
Just wish they would declare UDI.
		
Click to expand...

UDI??

A Taylor Made utility iron? How's a golf club going to help the political situation???


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 13, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Ideal opportunity now to get Scotland and the SNP out of our hair.
They are holding England back and there is no point in pandering to them any more.
Just wish they would declare UDI.
		
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Did you have a scottish wife or girlfriend who dumped or something? 
your attitude to them and their country is shocking.
A lot of the banter/rivalry is light hearted but If ever needed they would be there for us 

Your attitude is pure spiteful


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you have a scottish wife or girlfriend who dumped or something?
your attitude to them and their country is shocking.
A lot of the banter/rivalry is light hearted but If ever needed they would be there for us

Your attitude is pure spiteful
		
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I admire honesty. Rather people spat it out than went round in circles.


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

Guys, guys, give him a break he's on the crack or such like again and will be off his head for the next few hours... his gums will be red raw by now


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

if the above is true.

Sorry but that is not how to behave, have respect for your counterparts, if you expect respect yourself.

Bad show.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

DRW said:








if the above is true.

Sorry but that is not how to behave, have respect for your counterparts, if you expect respect yourself.

Bad show.
		
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Sometimes when you lose, its difficult to lose gracefully, and sometimes when you win it means so much to you, you dance around. I doubt she would have done it if Jo Swinson had been stood in front of her. Bit of a non-story really.


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

DRW said:








if the above is true.

Sorry but that is not how to behave, have respect for your counterparts, if you expect respect yourself.

Bad show.
		
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To give Nicola some credit she does say at the end "despite the shocking reaction i do feel for her" so not as bad as it looks in reality


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sometimes when you lose, its difficult to lose gracefully, and sometimes when you win it means so much to you, you dance around. I doubt she would have done it if Jo Swinson had been stood in front of her. Bit of a non-story really.
		
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Have to agree to disagree for sure, shows a complete lack of respect for your counterparts. I could have understood more if this had been caught on someones mobile phone or in private, but whilst she knew she was being taped by sky TV.

Allows you to see what is really going on behind some peoples faces, before the brain fully engages and think, oh poo what I have just done and then gives the correct answer.

Bad show, no respect.


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2019)

So Nicola Sturgeon says Boris Johnson has "no right" to stand in the way of another Scottish independence referendum! Oh yes he does he has been voted the PM of the* UK* so has every right to carry out strategies that the Government believes to be in the interest of the *UK.*


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

DRW said:



			Have to agree to disagree for sure, shows a complete lack of respect for your counterparts. I could have understood more if this had been caught on someones mobile phone or in private, but whilst she knew she was being taped by sky TV.

Allows you to see what is really going on behind some peoples faces, before the brain fully engages and think, oh poo what I have just done and then gives the correct answer.

Bad show, no respect.
		
Click to expand...

Have you never scored a goal in an important match, or a try? Ran an important race, or sank a putt for the club k'out championship? A celebration with your mates, then turn to your opponent and with the deepest grace, thank them for a great match?

There are poor winners and losers, Is Sturgeon one of them? I don't know her well enough to say.

Agree to disagree.


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Nicola Sturgeon says Boris Johnson has "no right" to stand in the way of another Scottish independence referendum! Oh yes he does he has been voted the PM of the* UK* so has every right to carry out strategies that the Government believes to be in the interest of the *UK.*

Click to expand...

if thats the case at the moment Scotland is part of the UK,  returned 48 of 59 seats, if Scotland want to have another Ref how is it not in the interest of the UK?


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have you never scored a goal in an important match, or a try? Ran an important race, or sank a putt for the club k'out championship? A celebration with your mates, then turn to your opponent and with the deepest grace, thank them for a great match?

There are poor winners and losers, Is Sturgeon one of them? I don't know her well enough to say.

Agree to disagree.
		
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if you wait till the end she even says her reaction was poor and said she felt for her, not sure what OP says is correct


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## Captainron (Dec 13, 2019)

Sturgeon only started taliking up another referendum after they had won a load of seats back from Labour. 
I don’t think another referendum will be any help to anyone after the last one was a once in a generation vote.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

In sure she won't be doing any sort of dance (maybe a little /large stomp) when BJ turns down her request for another referendum.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2019)

The SNIP, don't wanna talk about it. Am still having flashbacks when he cut me nakka tubes.


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## Dando (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In sure she won't be doing any sort of dance (maybe a little /large stomp) when BJ turns down her request for another referendum.
		
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No doubt she’ll throw another almighty strop and go to court to try and get her own way


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

Dando said:



			No doubt she’ll throw another almighty strop and go to court to try and get her own way
		
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won't be her, one of her minions.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			if thats the case at the moment Scotland is part of the UK,  returned 48 of 59 seats, if Scotland want to have another Ref how is it not in the interest of the UK?
		
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I reckon the original post should have read 'the Government believes to be in the *BEST* interest of the UK'.

Brexit is now going to happen, everyone in the country should accept that fact and get on with making the best of it, that includes the SNP and all other remainers.  After 3 years of self inflicted turmoil, we have become a laughing stock and the UK badly needs stability for what is ahead of us the next couple of years.  The last thing the countries need is another referendum of such magnitude that it could threaten the very fabric of the UK.  It is a time for us to lick our wounds and show some unity, not another bitter argument, sowing more division and spreading more bile.

Im not a Boris fan, but its time to give the guy his chance, see what comes of Brexit, let the dust settle on it and then perhaps revisit the independence question if (or when) he makes a proper arse of it.  The question of independence and the survival of the UK is far too big and important to jump into at this time.

The people of Scotland and the UK deserve better than this selfish knee jerk reaction from the SNP, and Boris will be entirely justified in telling Wee Nicola that now is not the time.

PS - I do wonder if the SNP are deliberately trying to rush forward with this before the Salmond case hits the courts.  I think they know a storm is on the horizon and they are trying to make hay while the sun is shining.  Just a thought!?


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## patricks148 (Dec 13, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I reckon the original post should have read 'the Government believes to be in the *BEST* interest of the UK'.

Brexit is now going to happen, everyone in the country should accept that fact and get on with making the best of it, that includes the SNP and all other remainers.  After 3 years of self inflicted turmoil, we have become a laughing stock and the UK badly needs stability for what is ahead of us the next couple of years.  The last thing the countries need is another referendum of such magnitude that it could threaten the very fabric of the UK.  It is a time for us to lick our wounds and show some unity, not another bitter argument, sowing more division and spreading more bile.

Im not a Boris fan, but its time to give the guy his chance, see what comes of Brexit, let the dust settle on it and then perhaps revisit the independence question if (or when) he makes a proper arse of it.  The question of independence and the survival of the UK is far too big and important to jump into at this time.

The people of Scotland and the UK deserve better than this selfish knee jerk reaction from the SNP, and Boris will be entirely justified in telling Wee Nicola that now is not the time.
		
Click to expand...

 but Boris doesn't care about Scotland or Wales Or NI, i think we have a lot more indy talk from all corners coming, i thinks its naive to expect the SNP to take it lying down after its there main thing, they will keep trying untill the get it


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

Think you're right about the salmond case.
Can't wait to see WJK's face leaving #10 after being told to do one, bulldog chewing a wasp springs to mind.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Out of interest why are so many people against the idea of Scottish independence? Yet at the same time want Brexit giving us a break from the EU.

I think Scotland should have the right to choose independence and make its own way. It will be difficult early on for them if it happens but they're a nation in their own right so give them the right to decide and fall or succeed, it wouldn't happen overnight anyway there'd be a lot of work to do to get there


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but Boris doesn't care about Scotland or Wales Or NI, i think we have a lot more indy talk from all corners coming, i thinks its naive to expect the SNP to take it lying down after its there main thing, they will keep trying untill the get it
		
Click to expand...

He may look it but Boris isnt daft, he wont want to be the PM that oversees the break up of the UK, so he will need to start caring for the smaller countries.  What form this takes, who knows, but dishing out referendums certainly isnt the answer.

I never expected anything else from the SNP and especially our Supreme Leader.  As you alluded to, its there main thing and they will use every and any opportunity to get what they want without a thought for anyone or anything outwith their SNP/YES bubble.  They are an embarrassment to a great many Scots who just want peace and cant be arsed with the chippy, divisive attitude they spew at Westminster.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Out of interest why are so many people against the idea of Scottish independence? Yet at the same time want Brexit giving us a break from the EU.

I think Scotland should have the right to choose independence and make its own way. It will be difficult early on for them if it happens but they're a nation in their own right so give them the right to decide and fall or succeed, it wouldn't happen overnight anyway there'd be a lot of work to do to get there
		
Click to expand...

The problem (please feel free any Scottish people to correct me were I’m wrong) not everybody in Scotland wants independence, how many referendums should those opposed have forced on them until the minority (as per the last referendum) win.

I totally agree it should be their choice, but the most noise, like the EU Referendum, seems to come from those who lost last time.
Which party or who is fighting for those who don’t want to leave the Union.


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2019)

Sure last poll, Independence was in the minority.  (Not that the SNP want independence, they want out of UK and into EU!) 

Last night does show a healthy majority would never Vote Tory, don't like Corbyn (except for one end of Glasgow) so SNP doing nicely!


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Which party or who is fighting for those who don’t want to leave the Union.
		
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Conservative, Labour and LibDems all campaigned on a pro Union stance and combined they secured more votes (not seats) than the SNP.  Is this grounds to question the mandate they all bleat on about??


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The problem (please feel free any Scottish people to correct me were I’m wrong) not everybody in Scotland wants independence, how many referendums should those opposed have forced on them until the minority (as per the last referendum) win.

I totally agree it should be their choice, but the most noise, like the EU Referendum, seems to come from those who lost last time.
Which party or who is fighting for those who don’t want to leave the Union.
		
Click to expand...

Fully understand that not everyone in Scotland may want it, no different to the Brexit were going through many don't want that but democracy wins out so we leave no problems with that. The difference I see now though compared to when Scotland had indyref, is we've since had the Brexit vote, that could potentially change the minds of some of the original Scotland remainers. Because now they're being taken out of the EU by default that could potentially change everything and they may choose to leave the UK to remain in the EU. 

Thats why im genuinely intrigued by why so many people that are not Scottish or living outside of Scotland are so anti Scotland independence.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Out of interest why are so many people against the idea of Scottish independence? Yet at the same time want Brexit giving us a break from the EU.

I think Scotland should have the right to choose independence and make its own way. It will be difficult early on for them if it happens but they're a nation in their own right so give them the right to decide and fall or succeed, it wouldn't happen overnight anyway there'd be a lot of work to do to get there
		
Click to expand...

You can not compare a 400 year old union with a 40 year old trading agreement! 
Scotland is part of Great Britain, I am British and do not want the Country splitting up and being weaker for it.

I wonder if (hope) the SNP might take a leaf out of the Sinn Fein book and not take up their seats in Parliament in protest....being unable to swear allegiance to The Queen etc🤔

Give us a rest from the whinging 😁


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Sturgeon only started taliking up another referendum after they had won a load of seats back from Labour.
I don’t think another referendum will be any help to anyone after the last one was a once in a generation vote.
		
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Wrong - 100% wrong!


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You can not compare a 400 year old union with a 40 year old trading agreement!
Scotland is part of Great Britain, I am British and do not want the Country splitting up and being weaker for it.

I wonder if (hope) the SNP might take a leaf out of the Sinn Fein book and not take up their seats in Parliament in protest....being unable to swear allegiance to The Queen etc🤔

Give us a rest from the whinging 😁
		
Click to expand...

Can't I do that who says i can't.. A 400 year old agreement it may well be but that doesn't change the fact they're a nation in their own right and should have more say in whether they become independent and remain part of an economic union that is ultimately bigger than the UK.

By all means disagree but don't tell me what i can and can't compare.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205554870025109504


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Can't I do that who says i can't.. A 400 year old agreement it may well be but that doesn't change the fact they're a nation in their own right and should have more say in whether they become independent and remain part of an economic union that is ultimately bigger than the UK.

*By all means disagree but don't tell me what i can and can't compare.*

Click to expand...



Being a bit sensitive there? Clearly F and D could have used the term "One", Instead of "you". But you chose to be offended.
Scotland is not a Country( ask the U.N.); It is a region of the UK. I am no expert, but defence experts, if they were allowed, could tell you exactly how vital the defence installations located in Scotland are to the whole UK. 
Why should all that be risked because 2.4 million ( out if a total of 66 million UK residents) want break up the Country and create a new one.
And if it were permitted, how could the demands for Wales to go the same way be refused?
No British PM is going to be responsible for that outcome, unless forced to.
Sturgeon is in no position to demand anything. Her influence on the PM is now nothing. She can only accept what may be offered, and that will not be independence.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Can't I do that who says i can't.. A 400 year old agreement it may well be but that doesn't change the fact they're a nation in their own right and should have more say in whether they become independent and remain part of an economic union that is ultimately bigger than the UK.

By all means disagree but don't tell me what i can and can't compare.
		
Click to expand...

Actually gave you a bit more credit than to take the “you” personally!🙄

I am a fervent “better together” supporter but I agree if there is a genuine will to have another indyref then they should have it but I’m not convinced there is, sturgeon, Blackford and Doon might try telling you (not literally you calm down) there is but my own experiences in Scotland suggest otherwise.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You can not compare a 400 year old union with a 40 year old trading agreement!
Scotland is part of Great Britain, I am British and do not want the Country splitting up and being weaker for it.

I wonder if (hope) the SNP might take a leaf out of the Sinn Fein book and not take up their seats in Parliament in protest....being unable to swear allegiance to The Queen etc🤔

Give us a rest from the whinging 😁
		
Click to expand...

I know it might only be semantics on my part - others will see it differently - but its not "the country splitting up." Scotland is a country in its own right. It would be a country leaving the Union, not the country splitting up.

So many times I see people saying Scotland can't do or shouldn't be allowed. Scotland are supposed to be an equal partner in the Union. Yes there shouldn't be disruption within the Union, and all countries working together, but if one country wants to leave, they shouldn't have to ask permission.

For the sake of continuity, minimum disruption, maybe there should be a minimum fixed period between when a country can ask to leave the Union

Brexit is a seismic shift for the countries in the Union, and as much as the argument has been had about it being a UK wide vote, ignoring the message coming out of Scotland is naive. Let them have a referendum but with the proviso that there is a minimum of 10 years(?) till the next one if it comes back as "no."


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## Captainron (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Wrong - 100% wrong!
		
Click to expand...

You may be right. Life expectancy up there is lower and it might actually be a new generation...


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## Imurg (Dec 13, 2019)

Now can't be the right time to start IndyRef2.
With the Brexit barge about to get going, Trade talks are going to involve Scottish, Welsh and NIrish interests/commodities/services etc
How can they take place with the threat that, within a year, Scotland might be going its own way?
I'm not against Scotland leaving as such but the first referendum was a "once in a generation" thing - who coined that? Was it just implied or was it part of the wording somewhere..?
Either way, the referendum was only 5 years ago.
They need to, at least, get Brexit rolling before even thinking about it.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know it might only be semantics on my part - others will see it differently - but its not "the country splitting up." Scotland is a country in its own right. It would be a country leaving the Union, not the country splitting up.

So many times I see people saying Scotland can't do or shouldn't be allowed. Scotland are supposed to be an equal partner in the Union. Yes there shouldn't be disruption within the Union, and all countries working together, but if one country wants to leave, they shouldn't have to ask permission.

For the sake of continuity, minimum disruption, maybe there should be a minimum fixed period between when a country can ask to leave the Union

Brexit is a seismic shift for the countries in the Union, and as much as the argument has been had about it being a UK wide vote, ignoring the message coming out of Scotland is naive. Let them have a referendum but with the proviso that there is a minimum of 10 years(?) till the next one if it comes back as "no."
		
Click to expand...


Your absolutly right it IS semantics. 

The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a Sovereign Country. Scotland leaving would split said Country up. Difficult for me to see it any other way.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Being a bit sensitive there? Clearly F and D could have used the term "One", Instead of "you". But you chose to be offended.
Scotland is not a Country( ask the U.N.); It is a region of the UK. I am no expert, but defence experts, if they were allowed, could tell you exactly how vital the defence installations located in Scotland are to the whole UK.
Why should all that be risked because 2.4 million ( out if a total of 66 million UK residents) want break up the Country and create a new one.
And if it were permitted, how could the demands for Wales to go the same way be refused?
No British PM is going to be responsible for that outcome, unless forced to.
Sturgeon is in no position to demand anything. Her influence on the PM is now nothing. She can only accept what may be offered, and that will not be independence.
		
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The joy of written word and how a simple exclamation mark can be misinterpreted. 

Scotland is a country, the United Kingdown is made up of 4 constituant countries but thats semantics. 

Hobbit has put it much better than I have so ill leave it there.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Actually gave you a bit more credit than to take the “you” personally!🙄

I am a fervent “better together” supporter but I agree if there is a genuine will to have another indyref then they should have it but I’m not convinced there is, sturgeon, Blackford and Doon might try telling you (not literally you calm down) there is but my own experiences in Scotland suggest otherwise.
		
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No need tell me to calm down, im perfectly calm. As I said above sometimes things seem out of context in written word 👍


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## Captainron (Dec 13, 2019)

brexit will have happened before any indyref so Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU if they ever got “independence”


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## Fade and Die (Dec 13, 2019)

Wolf said:



			No need tell me to calm down, im perfectly calm. As I said above sometimes things seem out of context in written word 👍
		
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Sure you are.


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## Wolf (Dec 13, 2019)

Fade and Die said:









Sure you are. 

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🙄


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know it might only be semantics on my part - others will see it differently - but its not "the country splitting up." Scotland is a country in its own right. It would be a country leaving the Union, not the country splitting up.

So many times I see people saying Scotland can't do or shouldn't be allowed. Scotland are supposed to be an equal partner in the Union. Yes there shouldn't be disruption within the Union, and all countries working together, but if one country wants to leave, they shouldn't have to ask permission.

For the sake of continuity, minimum disruption, maybe there should be a minimum fixed period between when a country can ask to leave the Union

Brexit is a seismic shift for the countries in the Union, and as much as the argument has been had about it being a UK  Let them have a referendum but with the proviso that there is a minimum of 10 years(?) till the next one if it comes back as "no."
		
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Not sure I agree with you hobbit. 

Do we just keep having referendums until they win?  Or do you propose we keep voting every 10 years after that too, just in case the independance grass isn’t greener?

We would exist in a constant state of uncertainty, leading to maximum disruption and perpetual argument.  

 Not one of your better ideas.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Not sure I agree with you hobbit.

Do we just keep having referendums until they win?  Or do you propose we keep voting every 10 years after that too, just in case the independance grass isn’t greener?

We would exist in a constant state of uncertainty, leading to maximum disruption and perpetual argument. 

Not one of your better ideas.
		
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it isn’t a good idea, it’s about respecting Scotland’s right to choose its own destiny. And once they’re out, they’re out unless the rest of the UK agrees to accept them back, assuming they come asking.


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## DRW (Dec 13, 2019)

Think for any referendums likes indy (would have included Brexit), they should never be settled on a simple majority vote. Bit silly to make such major changes and embark on such unknown roads if the vote is so close to 50:50..

Didnt canada do something like that ?

change the percentage to something sensible EDIT.. and would add a minimum percentage of the total adult over 18 must have been pro votes(irrelvant of the actual number voted)


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			it isn’t a good idea, it’s about respecting Scotland’s right to choose its own destiny. And once they’re out, they’re out unless the rest of the UK agrees to accept them back, assuming they come asking.
		
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Calling a new referendum every ten years, or five years, or every time the torys win at Westminster, or every time the snp win holyrood is a joke.  A decision of this magnitude should be once in a generation and respected as such.

It would be a damning shame on us and our generation if we treat our union, our country, it’s history and all it stands for so casually.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Calling a new referendum every ten years, or five years, or every time the torys win at Westminster, or every time the snp win holyrood is a joke.  A decision of this magnitude should be once in a generation and respected as such.

It would be a damning shame on us and our generation if we treat our union, our country, it’s history and all it stands for so casually.
		
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Whatever...


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			He may look it but Boris isnt daft, he wont want to be the PM that oversees the break up of the UK, so he will need to start caring for the smaller countries.  What form this takes, who knows, but dishing out referendums certainly isnt the answer.

I never expected anything else from the SNP and especially our Supreme Leader.  As you alluded to, its there main thing and they will use every and any opportunity to get what they want without a thought for anyone or anything outwith their SNP/YES bubble.  They are an embarrassment to a great many Scots who just want peace and cant be arsed with the chippy, divisive attitude they spew at Westminster.
		
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Just like your post is an embarrassment to a great many Scots who want independence.

Is their a difference?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Think you're right about the salmond case.
Can't wait to see WJK's face leaving #10 after being told to do one, bulldog chewing a wasp springs to mind.
		
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Oh my that is original!


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Calling a new referendum every ten years, or five years, or every time the torys win at Westminster, or every time the snp win holyrood is a joke.  A decision of this magnitude should be once in a generation and respected as such.

It would be a damning shame on us and our generation if we treat our union, our country, it’s history and all it stands for so casually.
		
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Says who? You and your "pro British attitude?"

History is history it will always be history, you can't erase it. It's the future you look to.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Just like your post is an embarrassment to a great many Scots who want independence.

Is their a difference?
		
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precisely my point, everyone’s blood is up and the country is so divided at the moment, do you really think another referendum this year is the answer?


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## lobthewedge (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Says who? You and your "pro British attitude?"

History is history it will always be history, you can't erase it. It's the future you look to.
		
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is my pro british attitude not allowed an opinion?


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## IanM (Dec 13, 2019)

No.  Surely you know that?😁


Joking apart, the exact opposite of pro British is taught in some schools.  A cousins kid was taught about slavery, but had no idea who William Willberforce was.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2019)

Fair play to the snp dude in QT, spoke very well , never seen him before.
didn't seem to know the answer to what the options were if a section 30 ? Wasnt granted, does anyone know ??


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Fair play to the snp dude in QT, spoke very well , never seen him before.
didn't seem to know the answer to what the options were if a section 30 ? Wasnt granted, does anyone know ??
		
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Catalonia basically. The SNP could run another referendum but it would be nothing more than a large opinion poll. It would carry no weight, it would not on its it's own lead to independence. It may lead to a real vote of course if the outcome was decisive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Sure last poll, Independence was in the minority.  (Not that the SNP want independence, they want out of UK and into EU!) 

Last night does show a healthy majority would never Vote Tory, don't like Corbyn (except for one end of Glasgow) so SNP doing nicely!
		
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Edinburgh South it was - and if you listen to the Ian Murray BBC interview after he was re-elected you’ll spot pretty quickly that he’s no Corbyn fan - bluntly saying the Labour is dead unless it changes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Sure last poll, Independence was in the minority.  (Not that the SNP want independence, they want out of UK and into EU!) 

Last night does show a healthy majority would never Vote Tory, don't like Corbyn (except for one end of Glasgow) so SNP doing nicely!
		
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Wrong again.
The ONE LabourMP sits in Edinburgh


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Catalonia basically. The SNP could run another referendum but it would be nothing more than a large opinion poll. It would carry no weight, it would not on its it's own lead to independence. It may lead to a real vote of course if the outcome was decisive.
		
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But like what happened in Catalonia (I think) most who would vote in it would be those supporting independence - yes voters.  Many Unionists would not vote and so the result would be pretty meaningless other than the overall numbers voting Yes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Conservative, Labour and LibDems all campned on a pro Union stance and combined they secured more votes (not seats) than the SNP.  Is this grounds to question the mandate they all bleat on about??
		
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Many Labour supporters are Pro Independence.
Not long ago their Scots leader was in support of another referendum.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Many Labour supporters are Pro Independence.
Not long ago their Scots leader was in support of another referendum.
		
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Strange....I don't know any


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 14, 2019)

Would it not be better for Scotland to wait for the outcome of the trade talks with the EU before pushing for another independence vote? Once they know the details of the agreement they will then be able to look at the full financial impact of independence/joining the EU with regards to any tariffs that might have to be enforced on their exports to rUK and can make their case accordingly. If the trade deal doesn't cover services, which is one of Scotland's biggest exports to rUK, then that could have an impact on finances.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

Johnson needs to be careful how he handles Scotland.
Those of us who live in NI and Scotland know exactly which Nation he means when he talks about 'one nation' Tories.
He needs to quickly dial back the anti-Scots talk and start doing something positive to show that he is not an empty vessel.
Failure to take quick action and to continue his anti independence stance could lead to a much more militant Independence movement and none of us want that.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Image24.jpg
Chris Cairns at his best.

Abd from the NI perspective 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205283821719080961


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## lobthewedge (Dec 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Many Labour supporters are Pro Independence.
Not long ago their Scots leader was in support of another referendum.
		
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Flip side to that doon. I know snp voters who would vote no.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would it not be better for Scotland to wait for the outcome of the trade talks with the EU before pushing for another independence vote? Once they know the details of the agreement they will then be able to look at the full financial impact of independence/joining the EU with regards to any tariffs that might have to be enforced on their exports to rUK and can make their case accordingly. If the trade deal doesn't cover services, which is one of Scotland's biggest exports to rUK, then that could have an impact on finances.
		
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That was the original SNP plan but the Tories have argued with themselves for three years and totally failed to 'get Brexit  done' within their planned timescale.

The Scottish Government [not the SNP] also asked for umpteen possibilities of deals that would lessen the carnage of Brexit in Scotland...…….all were totally dismissed by May and Johnson.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was the original SNP plan but the Tories have argued with themselves for three years and totally failed to 'get Brexit  done' within their planned timescale.

The Scottish Government [not the SNP] also asked for umpteen possibilities of deals that would lessen the carnage of Brexit in Scotland...…….all were totally dismissed by May and Johnson.
		
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As much as I am all in favour of independence we are ultimately at this point part of GB and therefore delighted that democracy has prevailed and Brexit will be done. We became an absolute laughing stock with the nonsense of a select few MP's who wouldn't accept democracy.

Scotland and the SNP are firmly in that boat at present and need to earn the right or have very clear justification to have another referendum.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

What seriously annoys me is Johnson and ilk quoting the 2014 result.
That result means nothing because of Brexit.

YES and NO voters DID NOT vote for leaving the EU in 2014.
 It is a fundable change and the people of Scotland, who massively supported staying in the EU, deserve to have a say.


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## stefanovic (Dec 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How on earth are the SNP going to be 'holding England back'.   And in what way is 'England' pandering to the SNP? Explain please.
		
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England with by far the largest population voted Leave.
The SNP tried to block that for their own purposes, and then demand another Indyref.
In 2014 the SNP tried every trick in the book and now have come up with even more tricks.




			And what's happened to NI and Wales...?
		
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Wales also voted Leave. NI now have a nationalist majority, so a united Ireland is now more likely.


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## stefanovic (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you have a scottish wife or girlfriend who dumped or something?
		
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Driving along the best road in Scotland, which is the one south into England, I always used to stop at Carlisle, just to admire the nice looking women.




			Your attitude is pure spiteful
		
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Rude, but never spiteful.


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			it isn’t a good idea, *it’s about respecting Scotland’s right to choose its own destiny*. And once they’re out, they’re out unless the rest of the UK agrees to accept them back, assuming they come asking.
		
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Why does Scotland have a right to chose 'its own destiny' when I as a British citizen have just as much 'right' to prefer the Union should be paramount.

In their referendum 2 million voted to remain part of the UK. The 'one trick ponies' of the SNP with 1.2 million in the GE did not capture an overall majority  of the 5+ million Scots so have no factual basis to over-turn the 2014 vote: that's less than of the 1.6 million Scots who took the opposite decision in 2014. Thus the data does not endorse the SNP's claim they have a mandate to revisit the 'once in a life-time' referendum. IMO it is dangerous rhetoric which would only damage Scotland's citizens were it to try and fully meet the costs of going it alone.

The SNP also expect to be allowed to stay-in or rejoin the EU despite their deficit being 3 times the EU's benchmark.  Scotland has none of the fundamental infrastructure of an independent nation - it a pipe dream sold by narrow minded charlatans who ironically charge Liberals, Tory and Labour of deception.


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## chrisd (Dec 14, 2019)

So Wee Krankie is willing to spend in excess of £15m to have a new vote when Sotland has a humungous deficit and will be unable to assure the population of its future given that the benefits/problems  of leaving the EU will not be known  - surely she should wait for a while?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Driving along the best road in Scotland, which is the one south into England, I always used to stop at Carlisle, just to admire the nice looking women.


Rude, but never spiteful.
		
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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0C95BCFB3279598B89290C95BCFB32795&FORM=VDQVAP


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			Why does Scotland have a right to chose 'its own destiny' when I as a British citizen have just as much 'right' to prefer the Union should be paramount.

In their referendum 2 million voted to remain part of the UK. The 'one trick ponies' of the SNP with 1.2 million in the GE did not capture an overall majority  of the 5+ million Scots so have no factual basis to over-turn the 2014 vote: that's less than of the 1.6 million Scots who took the opposite decision in 2014. Thus the data does not endorse the SNP's claim they have a mandate to revisit the 'once in a life-time' referendum. IMO it is dangerous rhetoric which would only damage Scotland's citizens were it to try and fully meet the costs of going it alone.

The SNP also expect to be allowed to stay-in or rejoin the EU despite their deficit being 3 times the EU's benchmark.  Scotland has none of the fundamental infrastructure of an independent nation - it a pipe dream sold by narrow minded charlatans who ironically charge Liberals, Tory and Labour of deception.
		
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So why do you think Scotland are so poor under Westminster rule [compared to England] and why do you not think that once they re-finance their share of the absolutely massive UK debt repayment that they should not manage as well as comparable countries such as Ireland, Norway Switzerland etc


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why do you think Scotland are so poor under Westminster rule [compared to England] and why do you not think that once they re-finance their share of the absolutely massive UK debt repayment that they should not manage as well as comparable countries such as Ireland, Norway Switzerland etc
		
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I guess that is a question for your Assembly who have not delivered on their promises and failed on fiscal management...

Independence would need to address.
The Barnet systems give you 20% more per capita. So that's a 'bailout' needed from somewhere - who.
Even with UK support the deficit is rising.
Your Health service is supported by mostly agency staff at high costs.
Kids are under performing in your Schools
Scotland has no currency controls so relies on the Bank of England and sterling to provide stability.
The SNP's case was based on Oil revenues at $150/barrel - its now $65!
etc, etc.

Just for _devilment_ I'll mention that Scotland's fiscal management does not seem to have evolved since the Scottish Darien Scheme failed and needed cash injection.Then there is the fact that you could not continually use Westminster as a scapegoat.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

there was a snp  mp on the radio last night happily avioding the question of how a hard border would be implemented once they joined the EU 😜


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## Jacko_G (Dec 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			there was a snp  mp on the radio last night happily avioding the question of how a hard border would be implemented once they joined the EU 😜
		
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Hard borders are not implemented on any of Switzerland's five borders so it's really a red herring which has been made into a big issue.

The renewables industry is absolutely huge in Scotland and will continue to grow.


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## stefanovic (Dec 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0C95BCFB3279598B89290C95BCFB32795&FORM=VDQVAP

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But BC Airways flew from Gatwick with mainly English hostesses. 

I guess the Scots could be wound up by certain stereotypes. Their bank notes don't work too well south of the border might be one reason they want independence.
https://www.scotsman.com/heritage/10-annoying-stereotypes-that-every-scottish-person-hates-1-4973631


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			I guess that is a question for your Assembly who have not delivered on their promises and failed on fiscal management...

Independence would need to address.
The Barnet systems give you 20% more per capita. So that's a 'bailout' needed from somewhere - who.
Even with UK support the deficit is rising.
Your Health service is supported by mostly agency staff at high costs.
Kids are under performing in your Schools
Scotland has no currency controls so relies on the Bank of England and sterling to provide stability.
The SNP's case was based on Oil revenues at $150/barrel - its now $65!
etc, etc.

Just for _devilment_ I'll mention that Scotland's fiscal management does not seem to have evolved since the Scottish Darien Scheme failed and needed cash injection.Then there is the fact that you could not continually use Westminster as a scapegoat.[/QUOTE

Five of your points show how Scotland is performing under Westminster's warped financial control, one is wrong and another is plain stoopid.
Want to have another try?
I shall give you a wee help  Scotland's Tax returns to Westminster.
		
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## woofers (Dec 15, 2019)

The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2019)

If there was a 2nd referendum, and independance lost, would it disappear for a generation, (25 years minimum), or re appear next year, and the year after, and so on? I accept the EU issue has changed things somewhat, and so maybe, maybe there could be extenuating circumstances, but really, what would cause a definative result, leave, or stay.


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			precisely my point, everyone’s blood is up and the country is so divided at the moment, do you really think another referendum this year is the answer?
		
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What approach do _you _think the SNP should take then re indy2? (there’s really not that many options)

OK folks it’s a bit soon to be talking about indy2 etc so let’s just calm down and let the UK government lead us out of Europe, if Boris wants our help/advice/input on the exit and internal negotiations I’m sure he’ll ask for it despite his party'sstanding in this country and doubtless Scotland will be as strongly represented as it ought to be
Look folks regardless of whether we think there’s any reality of it happening anytime soon we must still push for Indy2 for several reasons but not least because we’re coming out of Europe and Boris _must_ be required to ask for our help/advice/input because unless we’re in a position of some strength he sure as hell won’t bother asking us about it
What would you do if you were in her shoes? Whether you agree or not the SNP _must _raise the matter. It’s not a tough one to figure out


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



*Would it not be better for Scotland to wait for the outcome of the trade talks with the EU *before pushing for another independence vote? Once they know the details of the agreement they will then be able to look at the full financial impact of independence/joining the EU with regards to any tariffs that might have to be enforced on their exports to rUK and can make their case accordingly. If the trade deal doesn't cover services, which is one of Scotland's biggest exports to rUK, then that could have an impact on finances.
		
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See my post above that illustrates why they _must_ pursue indy just to get the best EU Exit deal they can for the people living in Scotland

Those trade talks will hold the devil in the detail and the Scottish government is doing absolutely the right play to negotiate from a better position for the people/country (regardless of whether they think a second referendum will happen in the next 10 years, asking for indy2 is just a pretty big bargaining chip)


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So Wee Krankie is willing to spend in excess of £15m to have a new vote when Sotland has a humungous deficit and will be unable to assure the population of its future given that the benefits/problems  of leaving the EU will not be known  -* surely she should wait for a while?*

Click to expand...

How do you reckon that would be announced?

edit
Why are some pretty sensible posters completely unable to see that any SNP request for a second independence referendum has 10% to do with a second independence referendum & 90% to do with Britain’s exit from the EU


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## Dando (Dec 16, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If there was a 2nd referendum, and independance lost, would it disappear for a generation, (25 years minimum), or re appear next year, and the year after, and so on? I accept the EU issue has changed things somewhat, and so maybe, maybe there could be extenuating circumstances, but really, what would cause a definative result, leave, or stay.
		
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Krankie would just carry on moaning about it and demanding another vote until she got her way


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.
		
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And so the thinking seems to go that if Sturgeon has a mandate to hold Indyref2, then Johnson has to keep her engaged during the Exit Deal negotiations.  Because he will know that if he goes Hard (sorry) - or exits with no deal agreed - then some Scots currently minded to say 'No' - will move to 'Yes'.  And when the polls tell Sturgeon that 'Yes' has reached the threshold she is confident would return a 'Yes' result- she will call the referendum.

If Johnson manages to negotiate a 'soft' Exit Deal then those same Scots voters could well stay 'No' - and that threshold will not be reached and Sturgeon won't make the call - well not until the pressure on her by the hardline/absolutist Nationalists in her party *demand *it.

My bro is a senior and well-off Oil Industry Civil Engineer - like your mates - and he is very pro-Indy.  If he had any doubts (and he might have had a few) then having Johnson as PM has absolutely set his views in concrete.  Not sure that those south of the border appreciate the amount of 'love' felt for Johnson amongst many Scots.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.
		
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Same here I have professional friends and neighbours who were staunch Tories now Independence supporters.
Nicola playing a blinder at the mo, The more a right wing Westminster government say bugger off the greater her support will build.
If Scots Labour move to Independence then we are home and dry.


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2019)

Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.


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## User62651 (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and *lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.*

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.
		
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Could say same about Eire but there's not many there who regret getting independence or are desperate to come under Westminster/Tory control.


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Same here I have professional friends and neighbours who were staunch Tories now Independence supporters.
Nicola playing a blinder at the mo, The more a right wing Westminster government say bugger off the greater her support will build.
If Scots Labour move to Independence then we are* home and dry*.
		
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IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.
		
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It is a bigger mandate than Johnsons 'landslide' win for Westminster.
He did not even reach 80% seat share that the SNP managed to.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.
		
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not sure why you would wait when its quite clear a No deal appears to be the plan all along.


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

*Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.*

*Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh*.
		
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Yup absolutely, whatever political slant one has you'd have to admit the SNP have made phenomenal political progress in the last few decades. If they do nothing else (from their perspective) they have every right to be very proud about the changes they have brought about in Scotland’s political landscape even if they never achieve full independence (which they know could well be the reality so what is the *least *worst case scenario for the SNP to do in the next decade or two?)


Let’s just imagine that as part of post EU Britain a new port expansion is to be established (or any one of the hundred thousand other decisions that Britain’s exit from the EU will necessitate) and just for kicks let’s just say this billion pound investment could either be set up in Southport or Stranraer as the two finalists

Whether it ‘wins’ or not is Stranraer more or less likely to be chosen if Scotland’s First Minister is able to shout a bit louder and with a bit more importance round Boris’s Post-EU negotiation table than the councillors/MP from Southport simply because she has the Indy bargaining chip in her hand?
Maybe it’s only at this point of agreeing all these hundreds/thousands of decisions that in return its right & proper for her to concede and agree to defer pushing for further referendums on indy for xx years in exchange for more favourable post-EU trade deals/terms for Scotland within the framework of the UK than she might otherwise have been able to secure?

Some of the posts seem to be suggesting the best policy for her right now as _*Scotlands *_political and economic leader with Brexit looming is that she just shuts her mouth and waits for the call from Boris to see what crumbs Scotland has been ‘allocated’ post EU. How ridiculous would that be! It’d be pure political suicide, she and her party would surely be dumped at the next elections as incompetent & not fit to govern (that’s maybe just what some of you want especially the folks in Southport)

You guys opposed to her brining up Indy2, would you seriously just kowtow in her position? If so please don’t take any job that has responsibilities for the financial implications for those under your care


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.
		
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Do you know anything at all about Scotland [other than what you read in the Unionist press]


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Could say same about Eire but there's not many there who regret getting independence or are desperate to come under Westminster/Tory control.
		
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Don't know anything about Eire and what the EU situation was like at that time etc, so cant comment, but that wasn't really the main point I was making in the post, so a bit of a division. Was taking about when you would want the Indy ref, I think the time would be when you know the trade deal.



patricks148 said:



			not sure why you would wait when its quite clear a No deal appears to be the plan all along.
		
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I would have agreed that No deal was the most likely outcome, upto Mays time, but think that is now fairly unlike to happen. BJ however is a much more interesting loose cannon and harder to predict in these talks, EU/people don't like that but is not a bad thing for getting a better deal, all IMHO and I am no Boris lover.....

A sensible person would never make Indy kind of decisions, when so many lifes can be affected, without knowing what you are comparing it to.

Ie what the hell is the deal like and does it work for Scotland. You have the Indy ref before then and there is a whole load of unanswer questions.

Just feel SNP just want independence and that a problem for being sensible and taking the proper time to consider your actions and knowing what you are voting for or not voting for.


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## woofers (Dec 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a bigger mandate than Johnsons 'landslide' win for Westminster.
He did not even reach 80% seat share that the SNP managed to.
		
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You seem to have overlooked the fact that the election results are based on first past the post system, whilst referendum results are based on absolute majority of votes cast.
Seat shares are irrelevant.
Fact - the SNP got 45% of the votes cast in the election. If this were replicated in a referendum it’s not enough.
The SNP need votes from the other parties, I accept that, but the SNP votes cast alone do not give a ‘clear mandate’.
Please don’t try to be a politician by bringing in irrelevant arguments.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			Don't know anything about Eire and what the EU situation was like at that time etc, so cant comment, but that wasn't really the main point I was making in the post, so a bit of a division. Was taking about when you would want the Indy ref, I think the time would be when you know the trade deal.



I would have agreed that No deal was the most likely outcome, upto Mays time, but think that is now fairly unlike to happen. BJ however is a much more interesting loose cannon and harder to predict in these talks, EU/people don't like that but is not a bad thing for getting a better deal, all IMHO and I am no Boris lover.....

A sensible person would never make Indy kind of decisions, when so many lifes can be affected, without knowing what you are comparing it to.

Ie what the hell is the deal like and does it work for Scotland. You have the Indy ref before then and there is a whole load of unanswer questions.

Just feel SNP just want independence and that a problem for being sensible and taking the proper time to consider your actions and knowing what you are voting for or not voting for.
		
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i think Many Scots in favour of Independance would say they have had 300 years to think about it


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			You seem to have overlooked the fact that the election results are based on first past the post system, whilst referendum results are based on absolute majority of votes cast.
Seat shares are irrelevant.
Fact - the SNP got 45% of the votes cast in the election. If this were replicated in a referendum it’s not enough.
The SNP need votes from the other parties, I accept that, but the SNP votes cast alone do not give a ‘clear mandate’.
Please don’t try to be a politician by bringing in irrelevant arguments.
		
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but as you say its first past the post of the 59 seats in Scoland the SNP got 48 of them so that alone gives the mandate, thats the majority simple as that


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## HughJars (Dec 16, 2019)

woofers said:



			The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.
		
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All through the campaign, "send her a message, no to indyref2". It was the only policy the Tories had, it was in every interview, every leaflet, every street/field sign. Guess what, message was sent.


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i think Many Scots in favour of Independance would say they have had 300 years to think about it

Click to expand...

That's some life expectancy . - if that is a generation and your referendum was in 2014 Nicola has 295 years before the next one


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			That's some life expectancy . - if that is a generation and your referendum was in 2014 Nicola has 295 years before the next one 

Click to expand...

another example of the contempt shown to another country, glad you think its funny!


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			another example of the* contempt* shown to another country, glad you think its funny!
		
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Really unnecessary - sense of humour bypass. I have absolutely nothing against Scotland (I have many business ties, associates and ancestors!). I do sincerely worry that the Scots are being sold a pup by the SNP for the purposes of political dogma and could achieve far more staying in the Union than outside or as a satellite of the EU.


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

When people vote they don’t vote for what’s best for the country they live in, they vote for what’s best for ‘them & theirs’ (& who could blame them) So they vote for what’s best for their family, their kids, their job, their financial situation/prospects... the reality is they care not a jot about the family 40 miles away let alone 400 miles away and what might be best for them. So I totally get that most of you wouldn’t vote for SNP

In return the SNP care not a jot for what trade deals/economic benefits are negotiated for English towns and cities after the UK leaves the EU, they just care for the towns, cities & people they were elected to care about. So why then should they drop the biggest negotiating point they have in the locker just because some of you are saying… _‘Ease off on the Indy talk Nicola, we’ve a lot on just now what with Brexit and all’_

It really doesn’t matter what the scale of the deal even is. If Boris decides he wants a few thousand new flags to commemorate Britain’s EU exit and the two factories that can knock them out by Feb are in Gosport & Govan, do I want Caroline Dinenage (Gosport MP) or Nicola Sturgeon negotiating for the contract & who’s holding the stronger hand?

If pushing for a second independence referendum (regardless of the likelihood/probability) gives Scotland’s First Minister a stronger negotiating position with the UK Gov on any discussions than the daughter of Children’s TV legend Fred, then more power to her, she’d be a fool not to use it… wouldn’t she?


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really unnecessary - sense of humour bypass. I have absolutely nothing against Scotland (I have many business ties, associates and ancestors!). I do sincerely worry that the Scots are being sold a pup by the SNP for the purposes of political dogma and could achieve far more staying in the Union than outside or as a satellite of the EU.
		
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if you want unessasary, i would say the constant reference  of Scotlands Fm as Krankie and the like, not to mention being told England should get a say on its future and whats best for Scotland... forgive me for having a sense of Humour bypass as you call it


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			if you want unessasary, i would say the *constant reference  of Scotlands Fm as Krankie and the like,* not to mention being told *England should get a say on its future *and whats best for Scotland... forgive me for having a sense of Humour bypass as you call it
		
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But never by me - your chose to heighten the rhetoric by accusing me of having "contempt". you'll catch more wasps with honey than vinegar 

For the record I said we should all get a say in the *Union's *future - you have a devolved Assembly in which England's voters have no say and IMO that's fine*.*


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			But never by me - your chose to heighten the rhetoric by accusing me of having "contempt". you'll catch more wasps with honey than vinegar 

For the record I said we should all get a say in the *Union's *future - you have a devolved Assembly in which England's voters have no say and IMO that's fine*.*

Click to expand...

i expect all those calling her Krankie would say the same, have a good look at what you and others regularly post about Scotland, vinegar as you would call it.

you do its called Westminster...  with Scotland being a small country we get little or no say in it


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2019)

Quote from the great leader: Scotland "cannot be imprisoned in the union against its will by the UK government".
But hold on. Does the SNP speak for all of Scotland? Apparently they claim to represent every man, woman and child up there.
Did it just do well in the election in the face of not much opposition from the likes of the Labour Party?
How do they know what the final Brexit deal will be? It could be to their advantage.
Scots found that the original union with England and Wales gave them just what they were looking for. Have they forgotten that?


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## HughJars (Dec 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Quote from the great leader: Scotland "cannot be imprisoned in the union against its will by the UK government".
But hold on. Does the SNP speak for all of Scotland? Apparently they claim to represent every man, woman and child up there.
		
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 It's how it works, just a the Tories are claiming they speak for everyone on Brexit (smaller mandate btw)




stefanovic said:



			Did it just do well in the election in the face of not much opposition from the likes of the Labour Party?
		
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 Yes that's it, every election since 2010, Holyrood, UK, council, EU, every one the SNP have destroyed the opposition, so you're correct, it's all down to Labour 



stefanovic said:



			How do they know what the final Brexit deal will be? It could be to their advantage.
		
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 We didn't vote for Brexit, the best deal is staying in, every projection has shown that, but worse, the worst hit area of the UK will be....Scotland. 




stefanovic said:



			Scots found that the original union with England and Wales gave them just what they were looking for. Have they forgotten that?
		
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You'll have to remind us, because I have no idea what this refers to?


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2019)

Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.


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## HughJars (Dec 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.
		
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You're right, because right now, right this minute, they should have the answer to all of these, whereas Boris & Co have had 3.5 years to set something up, and they're not even past a withdrawal agreement yet! It doesn;t actually matter what the answer to any of those questions are, Yoons will say it's wrong anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Yup this. Fed up of that shit in particular.
		
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I suspect that most south of the border have little appreciation of the popularity of Sturgeon among a large part of the Scottish electorate and the soon-to-be electorate (14-17yr olds) - recognising of course that she is not universally popular by a long stretch.  And likewise how toxic the personality and politics of Johnson and his ilk are for that same group.


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.
		
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its OK Nicola, can just say "get UKxit done" and we will be happy with that after all you were


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

HughJars said:



			It's how it works, just a the Tories are claiming they speak for everyone on Brexit (smaller mandate btw)


Yes that's it, every election since 2010, Holyrood, UK, council, EU, every one the SNP have destroyed the opposition, so you're correct, it's all down to Labour 

We didn't vote for Brexit, the best deal is staying in, every projection has shown that, but worse, the worst hit area of the UK will be....Scotland.


You'll have to remind us, because I have no idea what this refers to?
		
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The Scottish wealthy (and government) supported the Union of Parliaments to be bailed-out following the financially disastrous Darien Scheme of the 1690s (sounds familiar doesn't it).  A cautionary tale for the future...just as well Scotland doesn't have mozzies and malaria - though the midges...


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## stefanovic (Dec 16, 2019)

Actually, I'm quite happy for Scotland to go. It is a country divided by religious bigotry.
Let them make up the rules as they go along.
Let them deceive each other with economic forecasts about how great Scotland will be. Don't tell them that economics is in no way a science. 
Don't expect us to bail out one of their banks again. 
Leave that to the EU, who will also be expected to throw buckets of money into Scotland.
Let the EU control Scotland's immigration policy. 

If Indyref2 is not successful then how soon would the SNP start talking about Indyref3? 
The very next day.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.
		
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You're always one of the more considered posters on here but I felt compelled to reply to this message. I'm an Englishman in Scotland and my reasons for voting for independence tie in with this way of thinking. The trade unions followed by Thatcher (just to be apolotical about the reasons) ripped the guts out of regions such as Scotland, North England etc. They used to be the work horse of the UK and are now the benefit vacuum's. We've had 40 years of government of 2 different hues in this time who have failed these regions consistently. The rail, road and air system linking these areas and the rest of the world together are pathetic and if you think that Scotland would be a tourism based economy then the fault lies squarely at Westminster's door. So unless there's a genuine co-ordinated plan and not just PR guff about Northern powerhouse then I'm all for trying a different way because 40 years is a long time to have made big inroads into these issues.


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You're always one of the more considered posters on here but I felt compelled to reply to this message. I'm an Englishman in Scotland and my reasons for voting for independence tie in with this way of thinking. The trade unions followed by Thatcher (just to be apolotical about the reasons) ripped the guts out of regions such as Scotland, North England etc. They used to be the work horse of the UK and are now the benefit vacuum's. We've had 40 years of government of 2 different hues in this time who have failed these regions consistently. The rail, road and air system linking these areas and the rest of the world together are pathetic and if you think that Scotland would be a tourism based economy then the fault lies squarely at Westminster's door. So unless there's a genuine co-ordinated plan and not just PR guff about Northern powerhouse then I'm all for trying a different way because 40 years is a long time to have made big inroads into these issues.
		
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I read this link with interest :-

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-how-are-the-snp-helping-to-improve-scotland-s-economic-performance/

if SNP have been taking action since 2007, why hasn't there been more success by SNP in Scotland, that you are able to see ? and how would that change if Scotland was independent. There are no magic wands for employment, its means business and investment in areas..(honest questions and interested to hear your reply to the two questions)


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## ger147 (Dec 16, 2019)

Just my opinion but I am certain that a second referendum on Scottish independence will be agreed within the next 5 years. The calls to have one will be too strong to resist as the main plank of the Better Together campaign was to guarantee Scotland staying in the EU.

Just my opinion, other opinions are available...


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Actually, I'm quite happy for Scotland to go. It is a country divided by religious bigotry.
Let them make up the rules as they go along.
Let them deceive each other with economic forecasts about how great Scotland will be. Don't tell them that economics is in no way a science. 
Don't expect us to bail out one of their banks again. 
Leave that to the EU, who will also be expected to throw buckets of money into Scotland.
Let the EU control Scotland's immigration policy. 

If Indyref2 is not successful then how soon would the SNP start talking about Indyref3? 
The very next day.
		
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So you reckon a political party called the Scottish national party, who got where they are when they basically had one political aim, with every success attributable at least in part, to that one aim.... should just shelve it as no longer relevant

Wouldn't that be a bit like Liverpool ditching that salah fella because he was decent for them last year?


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			I read this link with interest :-

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-how-are-the-snp-helping-to-improve-scotland-s-economic-performance/

if SNP have been taking action since 2007, why hasn't there been more success by SNP in Scotland, that you are able to see ? and how would that change if Scotland was independent. There are no magic wands for employment, its means business and investment in areas..(honest questions and interested to hear your reply to the two questions)
		
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First up, I've never voted SNP (although my wife did at this election). I think we're however beginning to see the shoots of improvement but as I'm sure you'll be aware when you're changing the direction of decades decline, 12 years is a drop in the ocean. My wife has been consultant working on 2 academia/industry hybrid projects in science and green deals. There certainly seems to be will there and I for one am in full support of the intent.


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			First up, I've never voted SNP (although my wife did at this election). I think we're however beginning to see the shoots of improvement but as I'm sure you'll be aware when you're changing the direction of decades decline, 12 years is a drop in the ocean. My wife has been consultant working on 2 academia/industry hybrid projects in science and green deals. There certainly seems to be will there and I for one am in full support of the intent.
		
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Hope it works and continues, should really start filtering into jobs etc, after 12 years of trying, if what they say is true. And blaming Westminster almost 100% by some people isn't quite right IMHO.

I certainly wasn't accusing you of anything, I am genuinely interested to hear peoples thoughts. As like to understand, I thought it was a little strange as westminster are not fully in control is that area (ie. Scotland government) and SNP are always saying what a great job they are doing.

Like to hear thoughts and thought processes, cheers for the reply. Rather than cheap points that so many seem to post on here, which is a real shame, as the important stuff is never discussed, ie why someone truly believes in X. Without being able to talk and express yourself ,there is no way forward and in todays worlds the government is always blaming someone.

For example used to hear the EU blamed for a number of things, when it wasn't unusual that the UK would introduce the legalisation at the earliest or at it full strength. And look what happened there to some extent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			I read this link with interest :-

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-how-are-the-snp-helping-to-improve-scotland-s-economic-performance/

if SNP have been taking action since 2007, *why hasn't there been more success by SNP in Scotland*, that you are able to see ? and how would that change if Scotland was independent. There are no magic wands for employment, its means business and investment in areas..(honest questions and interested to hear your reply to the two questions)
		
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Of course in *this *we have no idea what Scotland would have been like today had other parties been in power.  It may be the case that the SNP have been fantastically successful in mitigating issues that could have seen Scotland in a significantly worse state than it is in today.  We just do not, and cannot, know.


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course in *this *we have no idea what Scotland would have been like today had other parties been in power.  It may be the case that the SNP have been fantastically successful in mitigating issues that could have seen Scotland in a significantly worse state than it is in today.  We just do not, and cannot, know.
		
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Sorry think you are replying/quoting me out of context and your reply doesn't take the original post into account. The original post I responded to, was very much still blaming Westminster for everything. Which I thought was strange, given Scotland has its own government, which can change things under its 'remit'.

IMHO it isn't quite right to blame Westminster, as Scotland has their own government and SNP blows it own trumpet quite a lot, but if they are creating masses of jobs as kind of per their website, and the people can not see it after 12 years, they are failing as well IMHO.

But anyway have some work to do, all the best.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 16, 2019)

DRW said:



			Hope it works and continues, should really start filtering into jobs etc, after 12 years of trying, if what they say is true. And blaming Westminster almost 100% by some people isn't quite right IMHO.

I certainly wasn't accusing you of anything, I am genuinely interested to hear peoples thoughts. As like to understand, I thought it was a little strange as westminster are not fully in control is that area (ie. Scotland government) and SNP are always saying what a great job they are doing.

Like to hear thoughts and thought processes, cheers for the reply. Rather than cheap points that so many seem to post on here, which is a real shame, as the important stuff is never discussed, ie why someone truly believes in X. Without being able to talk and express yourself ,there is no way forward and in todays worlds the government is always blaming someone.

For example used to hear the EU blamed for a number of things, when it wasn't unusual that the UK would introduce the legalisation at the earliest or at it full strength. And look what happened there to some extent.
		
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To really turn things around you need to have full fiscal autonomy as well. The SNP aren't the be all end all when it comes to parties up here, I'm hopeful we'd have some sort of PR and that parties could reconfigure themselves to be more in tune with the electorate. If people were dissatisfied with the SNP there would be a viable alternative to vote for. Many up here liked Ruth Davidson but wouldn't vote Tory because of who put it in at Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

Slab said:



			So you reckon a political party called the Scottish national party, who got where they are when they basically had one political aim, with every success attributable at least in part, to that one aim.... should just shelve it as no longer relevant

Wouldn't that be a bit like Liverpool ditching that salah fella because he was decent for them last year?
		
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That's quality banter


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Actually, I'm quite happy for Scotland to go. It is a country divided by religious bigotry.
Let them make up the rules as they go along.
Let them deceive each other with economic forecasts about how great Scotland will be. Don't tell them that economics is in no way a science.
Don't expect us to bail out one of their banks again.
Leave that to the EU, who will also be expected to throw buckets of money into Scotland.
Let the EU control Scotland's immigration policy.

If Indyref2 is not successful then how soon would the SNP start talking about Indyref3?
The very next day.
		
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thats rich, coming from one of the biggest biggots ever to post on this forum.

your post also shows how little you know about Scotland and just reinforces the opinion most of on here would have of you ...  a sad bitter loner


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## patricks148 (Dec 16, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			To really turn things around you need to have full fiscal autonomy as well. The SNP aren't the be all end all when it comes to parties up here, I'm hopeful we'd have some sort of PR and that parties could reconfigure themselves to be more in tune with the electorate. If people were dissatisfied with the SNP there would be a viable alternative to vote for. Many up here liked Ruth Davidson but wouldn't vote Tory because of who put it in at Westminster.
		
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True....many thought they would just disapear once we had the referendum... RD again though was a bit of a popularist and the tories for much of the last 30 years have hardly had more than one MP in Scotland, she made a few people forget the damage the Tories had done to Scoland


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2019)

Interesting question being asked of BBC Scotland.
What are you going to do to promote democracy in Scotland.



August post..... but makes you wonder when Scots Labour will jump on the Independence train.
Broke and with one MP they have to do something quite radical to survive.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/40-of-scottish-labour-voters-support-independence/


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## lobthewedge (Dec 16, 2019)

Slab said:



			What approach do _you _think the SNP should take then re indy2? (there’s really not that many options)

OK folks it’s a bit soon to be talking about indy2 etc so let’s just calm down and let the UK government lead us out of Europe, if Boris wants our help/advice/input on the exit and internal negotiations I’m sure he’ll ask for it despite his party'sstanding in this country and doubtless Scotland will be as strongly represented as it ought to be
Look folks regardless of whether we think there’s any reality of it happening anytime soon we must still push for Indy2 for several reasons but not least because we’re coming out of Europe and Boris _must_ be required to ask for our help/advice/input because unless we’re in a position of some strength he sure as hell won’t bother asking us about it
What would you do if you were in her shoes? Whether you agree or not the SNP _must _raise the matter. It’s not a tough one to figure out
		
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I perfectly understand her need to raise the request, she would be lynched by her supporters if she didnt.  But once it is refused, I would like to see her and the SNP actually get on with running the country, trying to address some of the domestic issues Scotland has and put the independence debate on the back burner for a few years, at least until we see what the reality of Brexit actually is.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I perfectly understand her need to raise the request, she would be lynched by her supporters if she didnt.  But once it is refused, I would like to see her and the SNP actually get on with running the country, trying to address some of the domestic issues Scotland has and put the independence debate on the back burner for a few years, at least until we see what the reality of Brexit actually is.
		
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I know that the Scottish government is not perfect but would you not agree that the SNP have done a pretty efficient job of running the country.
Take a read through that list ,surely that is the main reason that they have so much support throughout the country.

https://www.snp.org/record/

That is some record, I moved back to Scotland in 1998 and the improvement to the country is quite astonishing.
My grandchildren all enjoy the superb new schools they attend, 20 years ago their old schools were a disgrace.
My wife attends superb new health facilities, 20 years ago they were a disgrace.
I save at least 20 minutes on my visits from west coast to east, 20 years ago we did not even have our two major cities linked by a motorway.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

This lovely lady nails it, Take a look at the [political] colours of the map, does that look like a United Kingdom to you.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205812770819788802


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This lovely lady nails it, Take a look at the [political] colours of the map, does that look like a United Kingdom to you.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205812770819788802

Click to expand...

she sums it up well


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## lobthewedge (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know that the Scottish government is not perfect but would you not agree that the SNP have done a pretty efficient job of running the country.
Take a read through that list ,surely that is the main reason that they have so much support throughout the country.

.
		
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I would suggest the main reason they have such support throughout the country is due to the decline and collapse of the Labour party over the past decade or so. 

Sections of society will never vote Tory and with Labour being unelectable, and the LibDems shooting themselves in the foot under Clegg they migrated towards SNP because there was no other option.  Throw in the Brexit chaos over the past few years and a perfect environment was created for the SNP to further its agenda, and spread more division.  Credit where its due they have played a blinder, but its been handed to them on a plate by incompetent politicians on both sides of the border.

I just feel that pushing for indyref2 at this time is hasty and oopportunistic on the part of the SNP, and voters would not have a clear choice to make.  Give it a few years, see how Brexit is panning out and let us all make a more informed choice instead of this knee jerk reaction while the unionist parties are either distracted by Brexit negotiations or in complete disarray.

As for the SNP record (as published by themsleves), you make Scotland sound like some sort of Utopia, so why rock the boat with the uncertainty that independence will bring when we would seem to have it so good??


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## stefanovic (Dec 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats rich, coming from one of the biggest biggots ever to post on this forum.
		
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As an atheist, I cannot be a bigott (I assume you mean a bigot).




			your post also shows how little you know about Scotland
		
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Scotland has been and still is one of the most sectarian countries on Earth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/06/rel...-as-conservatives-rise-again-in-scotland.html




			and just reinforces the opinion most of on here would have of you ...  a sad bitter loner
		
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Says you with your over 18000 posts. You must live on this forum ready to spout out whatever comes into your head.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			As an atheist, I cannot be a bigott (I assume you mean a bigot).


Scotland has been and still is one of the most sectarian countries on Earth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/06/rel...-as-conservatives-rise-again-in-scotland.html


Says you with your over 18000 posts. You must live on this forum ready to spout out whatever comes into your head.
		
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you don't help yourself do you, unless you have just been on the crack again

i do indeed have 18K of posts, but those are pretty much all about golf, rather than, sad bitter ravings of a crack head who's only reason for being on here is to offend and troll


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## HughJars (Dec 17, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I would suggest the main reason they have such support throughout the country is due to the decline and collapse of the Labour party over the past decade or so.
		
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The decline and near extinction of Labour is due to the SNP initially proving so competent in govt that voters swung behind them in huge numbers, this then led to the majority govt of 2012 that led to indyref in 2014, Labour's behaviour since, basically getting into bed with the Tories at every opportunity has just seen them fall further off the map.

Yes the SNP have benefited, but they caused it positively.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

At the moment I think it would be wise for the SNP to support the Government in their efforts to get a free trade deal with the EU. If the UK can do that then very little will materially change for Scotland's economy and the quest for Indyref2 can be pursued on a logical and rational basis.

If Indyref2 *was* to proceed too quickly then an independent Scotland could face major issues with the cross-border trade (rUK being the biggest customer by far), currency, defence, air traffic, health, etc.

Waiting would give the SNP time to get their current dire management of Scotland's economy in shape for when/if they every want to join the EU at some future date.

IMO independence benefits are over estimated and an emotionally driven push would land Scotland constrained by massive debt -rushing by the SNP is unnecessarily adding risk.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			At the moment I think it would be wise for the SNP to support the Government in their efforts to get a free trade deal with the EU. If the UK can do that then very little will materially change for Scotland's economy and the quest for Indyref2 can be pursued on a logical and rational basis.

If Indyref2 *was* to proceed too quickly then an independent Scotland could face major issues with the cross-border trade (rUK being the biggest customer by far), currency, defence, air traffic, health, etc.

Waiting would give the SNP time to get their current dire management of Scotland's economy in shape for when/if they every want to join the EU at some future date.

IMO independence benefits are over estimated and an emotionally driven push would land Scotland constrained by massive debt -rushing by the SNP is unnecessarily adding risk.
		
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Remember all that Sturgeon is asking for is the right to hold a referendum at a time of choosing of the Scottish Government.

She will not call one until she feels she will win it.  Johnson knows that the best way of 'holding up' another referendum is to give Sturgeon the power to hold one - he will then know that the best way of knackering a rise in support for Independence is to get a great deal that benefits Scotland as much as rUK - and so by involving Sturgeon in the trade deal negotiations in some way he bursts her balloon that says 'Scotland not involved - and deal is bad for Scotland'.

But first he has to take the risk of handing the decision across to her.  Then he involves her in getting a great Trade Deal - great for ALL of the UK.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember all that Sturgeon is asking for is the right to hold a referendum at a time of choosing of the Scottish Government.

She will not call one until she feels she will win it.  *Johnson knows that the best way of 'holding up' another referendum is to give Sturgeon the power to hold one *- he will then know that the best way of knackering a rise in support for Independence is to get a great deal that benefits Scotland as much as rUK - and so by involving Sturgeon in the trade deal negotiations in some way he bursts her balloon that says 'Scotland not involved - and deal is bad for Scotland'.

But first he has to take the risk of handing the decision across to her.  Then he involves her in getting a great Trade Deal - great for ALL of the UK.
		
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IMO that would be a strategically daft move and just adds noise - let the FM show a desire to cooperate in good faith for Scotland and rUK; if that genuine involvement is not possible then that shows the real political motives are not aligned.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO that would be a strategically daft move and just adds noise - let the FM show a desire to cooperate in good faith for Scotland and rUK; if that genuine involvement is not possible then that shows the real political motives are not aligned.
		
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She can only become involved if she is invited - we were told she would be involved all the way through Brexit WA negotiations and it didn't really happen.  If Johnson is to have Sturgeon involved he has to accept the flip side of what he has forced the EU to accept - engage with us or it's No Deal.   

He must force *himself *to engage with Sturgeon by giving her the power to call a referendum .  If he genuinely doesn't want another referendum then he must enable and ensure that Sturgeon is involved in the negotiations - force himself to involve her - certainly against his own wishes - but it is the best way of bursting Sturgeon's 'Johnson and his government don't care about Scotland' balloon.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO that would be a strategically daft move and just adds noise - let the FM show a desire to cooperate in good faith for Scotland and rUK; if that genuine involvement is not possible then that shows the real political motives are not aligned.
		
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Cooperate in good faith
Good grief have you witnessed ANY good faith offered to Scotland by this government since Brexit started.
The way they are treated by arrogant loud mouths at Westminster is just dreadful


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember all that Sturgeon is asking for is the right to hold a referendum at a time of choosing of the Scottish Government.

She will not call one until she feels she will win it.  Johnson knows that the best way of 'holding up' another referendum is to give Sturgeon the power to hold one - he will then know that the best way of knackering a rise in support for Independence is to get a great deal that benefits Scotland as much as rUK - and so by involving Sturgeon in the trade deal negotiations in some way he bursts her balloon that says 'Scotland not involved - and deal is bad for Scotland'.

But first he has to take the risk of handing the decision across to her.  Then he involves her in getting a great Trade Deal - great for ALL of the UK.
		
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she's already had her "once in a generation" vote


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She can only become involved if she is invited - we were told she would be involved all the way through Brexit WA negotiations and it didn't really happen.  If Johnson is to have Sturgeon involved he has to accept the flip side of what he has forced the EU to accept - engage with us or it's No Deal.  

He must force *himself *to engage with Sturgeon by giving her the power to call a referendum .  If he genuinely doesn't want another referendum then he must enable and ensure that Sturgeon is involved in the negotiations - force himself to involve her - certainly against his own wishes - but it is the best way of bursting Sturgeon's 'Johnson and his government don't care about Scotland' balloon.
		
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as he as a majority he hasn't got to do anything you suggest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			as he as a majority he hasn't got to do anything you suggest.
		
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Of course he doesn't - but if he doesn't attempt to engage with her in a serious way then that is just the sort of behaviour that stokes the SNP fire, and that is likely to convert waverers to the Indy cause.  If he seriously wishes to avoid independence then he has to force himself to engage with her.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course he doesn't - but if he doesn't attempt to engage with her in a serious way then that is just the sort of behaviour that stokes the SNP fire, and that is likely to convert waverers to the Indy cause.  If he seriously wishes to avoid independence then he has to force himself to engage with her.
		
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the snp doesn't need their fire stoking! 
if he wants to avoid independence then all he needs to do is ignore the poison dwarf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			the snp doesn't need their fire stoking!
if he wants to avoid independence then all he needs to do is ignore the poison dwarf.
		
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You do realise that you are abusing the Scottish First Minister - not some tart you met down the pub.  And that your vitriolic abuse is precisely the sort of thing that drives Scots into the independence fold - and causes quite a number of Scots to hold a negative view of The English.  Maybe that's just what you want.


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## HughJars (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			the snp doesn't need their fire stoking!
if he wants to avoid independence then all he needs to do is ignore the *poison dwarf*.
		
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And there we are again, and people wonder why we want out?

I had the pleasure of meeting her for the first time this campaign, charismatic, caring, classy, not in the least poisonous nor dwarfish! Idiot.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do realise that you are abusing the Scottish First Minister - not some tart you met down the pub.  And that your vitriolic abuse is precisely the sort of thing that drives Scots into the independence fold - and causes quite a number of Scots to hold a negative view of The English.  Maybe that's just what you want.
		
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I don't care who she is - she is a one trick pony who should try and put some effort into sorting out Scotlands problems rather than bleating on about indepedence

I guess what you've said over the past 3 years has be perfectly acceptable


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

HughJars said:



			And there we are again, and people wonder why we want out?

I had the pleasure of meeting her for the first time this campaign, charismatic, caring, classy, not in the least poisonous nor dwarfish! Idiot.
		
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I am sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't loose a seconds sleep if you decided to leave in another "once in a generation" vote


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do realise that you are abusing the Scottish First Minister - not some tart you met down the pub.  And that your vitriolic abuse is precisely the sort of thing that drives Scots into the independence fold - and causes quite a number of Scots to hold a negative view of The English.  Maybe that's just what you want.
		
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Just an observation but you do realise you often abuse the Prime Minister of the UK... just saying...


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an observation but you do realise you often abuse the Prime Minister of the UK... just saying...
		
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but that's ok!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

Scots Tories only had on issue on their leaflets and propaganda and that was 'Vote to stop Indyref2'
This was very strongly rejected by voters, the party losing half of their already small number of MP's.
Basically Scotland voted in very small numbers to stop Indyref2

On the other hand The SNP had a three issue attack, stop the Tories, stop Brexit and support Indyref 2 .
Some voters would chose not to vote for them on the strength of just one of those issues.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an observation but you do realise you often abuse the Prime Minister of the UK... just saying...
		
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Not in such an obnoxious manner though.
Some of the anti Scots stuff on here is in very poor form others simply childlike.......must be the brave new world of Boris.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Not in such an obnoxious manner though.*
Some of the anti Scots stuff on here is in very poor form others simply childlike.......must be the brave new world of Boris.
		
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whatever!


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## DRW (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			she's already had her "once in a generation" vote
		
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Why do you and other broken record types on here choose to ignore the constant comments on 'fundamental change' as covered in the Edinburgh Agreement.
It seems that both the Belfast and Edinburgh agreements are just being ripped up by this Government without even any conversation taking place.

What are you so scared of with Scottish Independence, do you not think the rUK will survive without our input.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do you and other broken record types on here choose to ignore the constant comments on 'fundamental change' as covered in the Edinburgh Agreement.
It seems that both the Belfast and Edinburgh agreements are just being ripped up by this Government without even any conversation taking place.

What are you so scared of with Scottish Independence, do you not think the rUK will survive without our input.
		
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I am not scared about anything and I am sure "rUK" will be fine without Scotland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2019)

In fairness to the SNP there was the promise of “stay in the Union - Stay in the EU”

And Scotland did vote to stay within the Union so when the UK then votes to leave the EU a year or so after you could easily say the situation changes 

So Scotland should rightly have a vote - stay in the Union but leave the EU along with that Union or Leave the Union and look to be a part of the EU as an Independent country 

I can’t see why the UK government can’t allow that referendum to happen - certainly grounds for it.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do you and other broken record types on here choose to ignore the constant comments on* 'fundamental change'* as covered in the Edinburgh Agreement.
It seems that both the Belfast and Edinburgh agreements are just being ripped up by this Government without even any conversation taking place.

What are you so scared of with Scottish Independence, do you not think the rUK will survive without our input.
		
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But it's not about "fundamental change". That's just the strap line that the SNP are using to try to get another vote. During the election campaign Nicola Sturgeon said that Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will amounted to a fundamental change and therefore a 2nd referendum was justified. The interviewer then said that if Brexit was stopped that would mean there was no fundamental change and it would remove the justification for the referendum. At which point she decided that it wasn't about fundamental change and was actually about Scotland being able to determine its own future.

I'm not against Scottish independence if that is what a majority of Scots want but even with no "fundamental change" the SNP would still be pushing for a 2nd referendum as it is their raison d'etre. If Scotland want more of a voice in UK politics then they have to shelve plans for a 2nd referendum for a certain period of time or they cannot be taken seriously. For example, if the government were to look at possible places to build Navy ships but it would require billions of pounds to spent to get a shipyard ready, why would they consider spending that money on a Scottish port if Scotland were to vote leave and they'd then have to spend it again on another port. They'd be far better spending it on an English or Welsh port, but then there would be complaints from Scots that they aren't being treated fairly.

I'd like Boris to agree to another referendum for Scotland but with conditions attached, such as it must be held within a certain time period and if the vote is to stay as part of the UK then there won't be another vote for 25 years. And then when it comes to campaigning for those that want Scotland to stay in the UK to simply say "We'd like you stay but it's your decision, you vote for what you want to do" and leave it at that. No project fear, no negative campaigning just a simple message and then let the Scots get on and vote.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			At the moment I think it would be wise for the SNP to support the Government in their efforts to get a free trade deal with the EU. If the UK can do that then very little will materially change for Scotland's economy and the quest for Indyref2 can be pursued on a logical and rational basis.

If Indyref2 *was* to proceed too quickly then an independent Scotland could face major issues with the cross-border trade (rUK being the biggest customer by far), currency, defence, air traffic, health, etc.

Waiting would give the SNP time to get their current dire management of Scotland's economy in shape for when/if they every want to join the EU at some future date.

IMO independence benefits are over estimated and an emotionally driven push would land Scotland constrained by massive debt -rushing by the SNP is unnecessarily adding risk.
		
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how would they support the Gov, by just keeping quite no doubt. TM wasn't interested in any other parties help or support, i suspect Boris won't either?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an observation but you do realise you often abuse the Prime Minister of the UK... just saying...
		
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Yes I did use a descriptive term that I felt suited - especially as it was based upon fact (that he told porkies to deceive) but have since ceased doing so...

_a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill _


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not in such an obnoxious manner though.
Some of the anti Scots stuff on here is in very poor form others simply childlike.......must be the brave new world of Boris.
		
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Unfortunately it seems that it is difficult have a sensible debate with you and SILH (in particular) as you become agitated and fire back and blanket accuse those with a contrasting debate of being anti-Scotland -- very, very wrong.

As I've said (from having worked with your Universities and companies on investment/restructuring in Scotland over decades) IMO independence now would be a particular disaster for Scotland. Your FM and Assembly have the authority and it needs to sort out its long term strategy and provide a stable basis for commerce (long term I think independence wrong). At the current time the EU is under huge pressures with the German economy and others in decline and the US/EU tensions are adding to their woes. So Scotland, would I fear, be a matter of getting on the list (Round to it); especially because it would be a net taker and drag on finances. (See Lagarde's inaugural IMF comments)

If your FM, SNPs and Blackford, (in particular) were to play a smarter game and stop jumping on Westminster at every opportunity, that would be a start. With their rhetoric it is hard to see how and why the PM et al would want to have any contact when the likelihood is the details would be leaked and simply distorted as anti-Scotland and this justified another referendum.

The FM and your SNPs have fostered their reputation as simple loud trouble makers: if they wish to be taken seriously they need to be acting with maturity and be serious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

Seriously, do you really think that Scotland being taken out of the EU, against the wishes of 2/3rd of its voters is not a fundamental change.
PS Brexit will not be stopped, it is just the severity of the self harm that is up for discussion now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But it's not about "fundamental change". That's just the strap line that the SNP are using to try to get another vote. During the election campaign Nicola Sturgeon said that Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will amounted to a fundamental change and therefore a 2nd referendum was justified. The interviewer then said that if Brexit was stopped that would mean there was no fundamental change and it would remove the justification for the referendum. At which point she decided that it wasn't about fundamental change and was actually about Scotland being able to determine its own future.

I'm not against Scottish independence if that is what a majority of Scots want but even with no "fundamental change" the SNP would still be pushing for a 2nd referendum as it is their raison d'etre. If Scotland want more of a voice in UK politics then they have to shelve plans for a 2nd referendum for a certain period of time or they cannot be taken seriously. For example, if the government were to look at possible places to build Navy ships but it would require billions of pounds to spent to get a shipyard ready, why would they consider spending that money on a Scottish port if Scotland were to vote leave and they'd then have to spend it again on another port. They'd be far better spending it on an English or Welsh port, but then there would be complaints from Scots that they aren't being treated fairly.

*I'd like Boris to agree to another referendum for Scotland *but with conditions attached, such as it must be held within a certain time period and if the vote is to stay as part of the UK then there won't be another vote for 25 years. And then when it comes to campaigning for those that want Scotland to stay in the UK to simply say "We'd like you stay but it's your decision, you vote for what you want to do" and leave it at that. No project fear, no negative campaigning just a simple message and then let the Scots get on and vote.
		
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Again  - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose _when _to have another referendum.  

Sturgeon will not trigger one until she is sure she will win.  She needs the polls to show quite a lot of converts from No to Yes.  That conversion may take quite a while if Johnson engages Sturgeon in the negotiation of the Trade Deal with the EU - and ensures that Scotland comes out of it just as well - if not better - than the rest of the UK.  SNP guns spiked - at least for a while.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



*Unfortunately it seems that it is difficult have a sensible debate without you and SILH as you become agitated and fire back and blanketdly accuse those with a contrasting debate of being anti-Scotland -- very, very wrong.*

As I've said from having worked with your Universities and companies restructuring in Scotland over decades  IMO independence now would be a particular disaster for Scotland. Your FM and Assembly has the authority and it needs to sort out its long term strategy and provide a stable basis for commerce (long term I think independence also wrong). At the current time the EU is under huge pressures with the German economy and others in decline and the US/EU tensions are adding to their woes. So Scotland, would I fear, be a matter of getting on the list (Round to it); especially because it would be a net taker and drag on finances. (See Lagarde's inaugural IMF comments)

If your FM, SNPs and Blackford, in particular) were to play a smarter game and stop jumping on Westminster at every opportunity, that would be a start. With their rhetoric it is hard to see how and why the PM et al would want to have any contact when the likelihood is the details would be leaked and simply distorted as anti-Scotland and this justified another referendum.

The FM and your SNPs have fostered their reputation as simple loud trouble makers: if they wish to be taken seriously they need to be acting with maturity and be serious.
		
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Sorry - but I have simply been pushing back at abuse levelled at the Scottish First Minister.  I point out that this sort of abuse is seized upon by those north of the border who will - and there are many who will - choose to interpret this sort of attitude towards the FM as being indicative of the view of The English as a whole.  That is wrong - but that what happens...

I am NOT making any blanket accusation of English being anti-Scottish - in fact I am not accusing ANY English of being anti-Scottish - but there are plenty up north who would take a different view to me.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again  - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose _when _to have another referendum.
		
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I think Boris Johnson knows fine well if given the freedom to choose the timing of indyref2, the SNP would have it in the diary as soon as possible.  Like I said in a previous post, Sturgeon and the SNP are opportunists and will pounce on a distracted Westminster, and also an ill informed electorate.  This is not in the interests of Scotland or the UK, and Boris is entirely justified in telling her that now is not the time.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I did use a descriptive term that I felt suited - especially as it was based upon fact (that he told porkies to deceive) but have since ceased doing so...

_a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill _

Click to expand...

You’ve used a lot more than that over quite a long period. 

Chatting to a long time friend last. Scottish Unionist And business owner...very bright women. She’d get a lifetime on here for her opinion of Sturgeon, and the damage she’s done to Scottish businesses.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again  - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose _when _to have another referendum. 

Sturgeon will not trigger one until she is sure she will win.  She needs the polls to show quite a lot of converts from No to Yes.  That conversion may take quite a while if Johnson engages Sturgeon in the negotiation of the Trade Deal with the EU - and ensures that Scotland comes out of it just as well - if not better - than the rest of the UK.  SNP guns spiked - at least for a while.
		
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Why on earth should Scotland come out the eu talks better off than the uk?


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

The 'Fundamental Changes' of FM during 2016 -2019 was not detected as a threat...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk › article › poll-reveals-sharp-fall-in-support-for-i...
7 Dec 2019 - _Poll_ reveals sharp fall in support for _Scottish independence_ ... despite the _SNP's_ election push, an exclusive _poll_ for The _Times_ has revealed. .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You’ve used a lot more than that over quite a long period.

Chatting to a long time friend last. Scottish Unionist And business owner...very bright women. She’d get a lifetime on here for her opinion of Sturgeon, and the damage she’s done to Scottish businesses.
		
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I have,  but I stopped and latterly I believe that I used only a descriptor used by many commentators in the media as being apt.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			Why on earth should Scotland come out the eu talks better off than the uk?
		
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I didn't say it _should _- I said it would help the unionist cause hugely if in some way if it _did _

So for example that could be in the context of immigration control - where something different than what we could be looking at at the moment would probably be _better _from a Scottish Government perspective.

Look - I don't know what England thinks on this - and I don't know if anyone actually cares - but I simply suggest that being abusive/aggressive towards, or dismissive of, Sturgeon does not look great to her supporters.

Before you know it the SNP will be organising a mass demonstration in Westminster...of course I jest...


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn't say it _should _- I said it would help the unionist cause hugely if in some way if it _did _

So for example that could be in the context of immigration control - where something different than what we could be looking at at the moment would probably be _better _from a Scottish Government perspective.

Look - I don't know what England thinks on this - and I don't know if anyone actually cares - but I simply suggest that being abusive/aggressive towards, or dismissive of, Sturgeon does not look great to her supporters.

Before you know it the SNP will be organising a mass demonstration in Westminster...of course I jest...
		
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It’s a bit of a going round in circles thing. Someone like Doon posts up an anti Westminster anti Boris anti English Wings thing. Someone from England responds in kind and then tribal warfare breaks out.

If you look back through any number of threads you will rarely see one of the spats being started by the English, apart from Stevana... whatever his name is. To a large extent, most people outside of the southeast feel ignored by Westminster. Do they continually rant about Westminster and the southerners?

Too many Scots are taken in by the SNP good Westminster bad brainwashing. Who runs the NHS in Scotland? Who runs education in Scotland? And who does Sturgeon blame? What is Scotland’s deficit...you can find it in the Scottish govt’s own financial report. Who ran up that deficit?


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It’s a bit of a going round in circles thing. Someone like Doon posts up an anti Westminster anti Boris anti English Wings thing. Someone from England responds in kind and then tribal warfare breaks out.

If you look back through any number of threads you will rarely see one of the spats being started by the English, apart from Stevana... whatever his name is. To a large extent, most people outside of the southeast feel ignored by Westminster. Do they continually rant about Westminster and the southerners?

Too many Scots are taken in by the SNP good Westminster bad brainwashing. Who runs the NHS in Scotland? Who runs education in Scotland? And who does Sturgeon blame? What is Scotland’s deficit...you can find it in the Scottish govt’s own financial report. Who ran up that deficit?
		
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Scotland has had the reins for 12 years but the horse has become detached from the cart of financial prudence - (Joke alert) interesting that the Scottish stereotype is usually characterised as being 'tight'.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 17, 2019)

HughJars said:



			The decline and near extinction of Labour is due to the SNP initially proving so competent in govt that voters swung behind them in huge numbers, this then led to the majority govt of 2012 that led to indyref in 2014, Labour's behaviour since, basically getting into bed with the Tories at every opportunity has just seen them fall further off the map.

Yes the SNP have benefited, but they caused it positively.
		
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while I accept your opinion I think you underestimate the turn off that labour after Gordon brown was to scottish voters. He was a safe pair of hands, solid dependable and one of there own. When Miliband took over in 2010, I reckon scottish voters saw only a London based metropolitan elite, totally unrelatable to many and they turned to the snp. Corbyn has only compounded this.


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			while I accept your opinion I think you underestimate the turn off that labour after Gordon brown was to scottish voters. He was a safe pair of hands, solid dependable and one of there own. When Miliband took over in 2010, I reckon scottish voters saw only a London based metropolitan elite, totally unrelatable to many and they turned to the snp. Corbyn has only compounded this.
		
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Don't agree with that at all. Gordon Brown was massively responsible for the 2015 SNP landslide.


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			she's already had her "once in a generation" vote
		
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What's this?


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			I am sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't loose a seconds sleep if you decided to leave in another "once in a generation" vote
		
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Make yer mind up!


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			I don't care who she is - she is a one trick pony who should try and put some effort into sorting out Scotlands problems rather than bleating on about indepedence
		
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I'm sure you're right, having your finger on the pulse from about as far from Scotland as it's possible to be in the UK.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 18, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Don't agree with that at all. Gordon Brown was massively responsible for the 2015 SNP landslide.
		
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You‘ll need to explain, Brown was a backbencher and didnt even stand for re-election??


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 18, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			You‘ll need to explain, Brown was a backbencher and didnt even stand for re-election??
		
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Do you recall the Unionist vow to Scotland, issued a couple of days before voting in 2014 when YES led the polls.
Brown was a big driver of that vow but it was signed by Cameron, Miliband and Clegg.
Perhaps you should re-visit it and count how many promises they fulfilled once they had won the vote.
I don't recall any except vote NO to stay in the EU.

Politics Joe getting English folk to draw where the Scottish border is.....mildly amusing  and sad.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206626732469620739


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## DRW (Dec 18, 2019)

Politics Joe getting English folk to draw where the Scottish border is.....mildly amusing  and sad.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206626732469620739

Click to expand...

I can tell you what is sad and terrible to read on a public forum owned by a private enterprise, is the constant distain you show towards 'English' people.

Cant believe it has been allowed to continue on this forum.

Any chance of stopping yourself in future and perhaps being a nice human being towards people, irrelevant of where they are born.

Thanks and all the best.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Politics Joe getting English folk to draw where the Scottish border is.....mildly amusing  and sad.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206626732469620739

Click to expand...


very sad Doon, reverting to type and spreading more bile and division.

pathetic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2019)

DRW said:



			I can tell you what is sad and terrible to read on a public forum owned by a private enterprise, is the constant distain you show towards 'English' people.

Cant believe it has been allowed to continue on this forum.

Any chance of stopping yourself in future and perhaps being a nice human being towards people, irrelevant of where they are born.

Thanks and all the best.
		
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I use the knowledge that he embaresses himself and also his fellow countryman , his bitterness you get with the odd people in any country - we have some bitterness Englishmen as well.

Most people just laugh and point fingers at him and let him rant.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I use the knowledge that he embaresses himself and also his fellow countryman , his bitterness you get with the odd people in any country - we have some bitterness Englishmen as well.

Most people just laugh and point fingers at him and let him rant.
		
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agree Phil, but there are thousands like him up here and the snp are only encouraging them. In the last week our own supreme leader referred to Scotland being imprisoned, the language is inflammatory and divisive.

yet this is the atmosphere in which they wish to hold indyref2?


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			You‘ll need to explain, Brown was a backbencher and didnt even stand for re-election??
		
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The Vow


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## lobthewedge (Dec 18, 2019)

HughJars said:



			The Vow
		
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no doubt it would have been an issue for some, but I think the milliband factor was the bigger rreason the labour vote collapsed, resulting in the snp victory.

all about opinions, and reckon we agree to disagree.


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## azazel (Dec 18, 2019)

Why do people say things like "her" referendum or "her" vote etc? It's clear that approaching 50% of people who are interested in politics in Scotland are in favour of independence so it's completely incorrect to claim that it's any one politician's referendum, election or otherwise.

It seems to me like it's yet another example of politics being dragged down to the American level, where it's easier to demonise one person rather than argue with half a country.


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

azazel said:



			Why do people say things like "her" referendum or "her" vote etc? It's clear that approaching 50% of people who are interested in politics in Scotland are in favour of independence so it's completely incorrect to claim that it's any one politician's referendum, election or otherwise.

It seems to me like it's yet another example of politics being dragged down to the American level, where it's easier to demonise one person rather than argue with half a country.
		
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But it also means about 50% do not favour independence..


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			But it also means about 50% do not favour independence..
		
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 Way to miss the point entirely


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## HughJars (Dec 18, 2019)

azazel said:



			Why do people say things like "her" referendum or "her" vote etc? It's clear that approaching 50% of people who are interested in politics in Scotland are in favour of independence so it's completely incorrect to claim that it's any one politician's referendum, election or otherwise.

It seems to me like it's yet another example of politics being dragged down to the American level, where it's easier to* demonise one person* rather than argue with half a country.
		
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It is exactly what it is.


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Way to miss the point entirely
		
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Exactly: in the same way your post skated over how the Government and Opposition comments are personalised to 'he' and 'his'. I was trying to address the issue not the person or gender.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			But it also means about 50% do not favour independence..
		
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How do you know that ? You have no idea of how that 50% would or would not vote in an independence referendum.
Remember 16 and 17 year olds and EU residents in Scotland may also vote in a referendum, both groups very Pro Independence.

Are you aware that the SNP's recent 45% of vote share in Scotland is greater than any Westminster mandate ever won by Johnson, Cameron. Blair or Thatcher.
You have to go back as far as Ted Heath to find a bigger mandate,


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

IMO you are tripping yourself up with your knee-jerk, emotionally driven response. I respect your viewpoint and patriotiism but I sincerely believe, based on econometrics, that Independence in Scotland would lead to systemic economic failures.

A GE is a FPTP system where  the backdrop is political and the '45%' may or may not contain a majority for independence. It is not relevant and it is spurious to compare that to a referendum. Westminster's GE data is another 'apples and pears' mistake so an irrelevance and a miss-understanding of the difference in the two systems and their purpose.

A Referendum on independence is normaly a binary choice seeking a simple majority vote where, in this case, Politics and patriotic opinions interplay; entirely different structure.

December YouGov survey suggested the prospect at a referendum is the support to leave may have decreased.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How do you know that ? You have no idea of how that 50% would or would not vote in an independence referendum.
Remember 16 and 17 year olds and EU residents in Scotland may also vote in a referendum, both groups very Pro Independence.

Are you aware that the SNP's recent 45% of vote share in Scotland is greater than any Westminster mandate ever won by Johnson, Cameron. Blair or Thatcher.
You have to go back as far as Ted Heath to find a bigger mandate,
		
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That 45% is also partly for a socialist govt, not wholly a mandate for independence. You're spouting the same disingenuous rubbish she spouts. You're conflating the SNP vote as wholly for independence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That 45% is also partly for a socialist govt, not wholly a mandate for independence. You're spouting the same disingenuous rubbish she spouts. You're conflating the SNP vote as wholly for independence.
		
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No I am not, I am comparing the Conservative parties mandate to the SNP's mandate from the election results.
Votes were 'lent' to both parties.


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## Dando (Dec 19, 2019)

I see WJK has kicked off again this morning.


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## HughJars (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO you are tripping yourself up with your knee-jerk, emotionally driven response. I respect your viewpoint and patriotiism but I sincerely believe, *based on econometrics, that Independence in Scotland would lead to systemic economic failures.*

.
		
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https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk


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## HughJars (Dec 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That 45% is also partly for a socialist govt, not wholly a mandate for independence. You're spouting the same disingenuous rubbish she spouts. You're conflating the SNP vote as wholly for independence.
		
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Over 90% of SNP voters back independence. *You* are conflating voting Tory/Lab/Lib-Dem as votes against, which isn't the case, and the Green vote is also mostly pro-indy, tho small in Scotland


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## HughJars (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			A GE is a FPTP system where  the backdrop is political and the '45%' may or may not contain a majority for independence. It is not relevant and it is spurious to compare that to a referendum. Westminster's GE data is another 'apples and pears' mistake so an irrelevance and a miss-understanding of the difference in the two systems and their purpose.
.
		
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Exactly, yet it's all you hear from Carlaw/Rennie/Leonard & Co. TY for pointing out the bloody obvious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

Scots Tories had a one agenda election call...….....Stop Indyref 2.....That is all we heard, nothing about Brexit, nothing about welfare the economy NHS etc etc.
They were resoundingly defeated so much so that they lost over half their seats, relegating them, along with Scots Labour to  fringe parties.
As is plain to see, there is very little appetite for Stopping Indyref 2 in Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			no doubt it would have been an issue for some, but I think the milliband factor was the bigger rreason the labour vote collapsed, resulting in the snp victory.

all about opinions, and reckon we agree to disagree.
		
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The Vow was an issue for many including myself...….we trusted them and the Unionist Parties let us down, almost criminaly.
That is why the 2015 vote was so huge, the country felt totally betrayed


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## DRW (Dec 19, 2019)

NICOLA _*Sturgeon*_ has called for _*Holyrood*_ to be _*given*_ permanent _*powers*_ to hold an indefinite number of independence referendums.
		
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Something is not quite right about it, whilst I get the point. There is something very uneasy about the vote vote vote until you vote the way I want, irrelevant of what is good for the economy, stability and pitting each of your fellow countryman against each other.

Think all referendum voting really should be changed from simple majority to a clear majority(say 55 or 60% and a min of total adults over 18 must have vote change). It is weird to think these votes could be settled by 1 vote either way or not.

Nothing has been learnt from each of the two referendums really, it is not good


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

Independence is " A recipe for an almost never ending dose of austerity" Prof Ronald MacDonald Glasgow University.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

DRW said:



			Something is not quite right about it, whilst I get the point. There is something very uneasy about the vote vote vote until you vote the way I want, irrelevant of what is good for the economy, stability and pitting each of your fellow countryman against each other.

Think all referendum voting really should be changed from simple majority to a clear majority(say 55 or 60% and a min of total adults over 18 must have vote change). It is weird to think these votes could be settled by 1 vote either way or not.

Nothing has been learnt from each of the two referendums really, it is not good
		
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If you look at the age voting groups the only thing stopping Scotland from being a normal independent country is the majority of it's citizens aged over 60.
Do you think it is fair that over 85 year olds can have a vote on independence but 16/17 year olds cannot.


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## DRW (Dec 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you look at the age voting groups the only thing stopping Scotland from being a normal independent country is the majority of it's citizens aged over 60.
Do you think it is fair that over 85 year olds can have a vote on independence but 16/17 year olds cannot.
		
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Not sure what point you are making about 85 year olds, are you ageist as well ? Of course they should have a vote.

With regards to, should 16/17 be able to vote(which is a stand alone question). Straight answer would be Nope, the law currently say 18 and don't really see the need for change but by all means, you can start a party to get the vote for 16/17 year olds if you wish to. Or if you want those 16/17 year old to vote you talk about, then have another vote in 1 or 2 years, which SNP would be in favour of anyway unless they win 

Noticed you didn't deal with either of the two bigger and more interesting points of the post :-

1) It is right that you can have the vote vote vote situation
2) should any referendums be done on a simple majority

Also interested in :-

3) Would it be right for SNP to ignore the result of any referendum, if they don't like the result ? (general question, not referring to Indy1 or EU ref and do not wish to refer to them)


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you look at the age voting groups the only thing stopping Scotland from being a normal independent country is the majority of it's citizens aged over 60.
Do you think it is fair that over 85 year olds can have a vote on independence but 16/17 year olds cannot.
		
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The average 16/17 year old has not decided who/what they think nor about politics. There is little understanding of how the things they buy arrive on the shelves or how public services are delivered. Unfortunately a mostly left leaning education system and unreliable/hyped social media is their prime source of knowledge.

Scotland's issues at stake with Independence is about its place in the commercial world when the vast majority of its income comes from trade with the UK, where the BoE provides the backstop insurance to the currency you use. IMO it is far more serious issue at risk than just political dogma and popularism and your FM's simple pursuit of mechanism for 'winning' shows she does not seem to grasp it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			The average 16/17 year old has not decided who/what they think nor about politics. There is little understanding of how the things they buy arrive on the shelves or how public services are delivered. Unfortunately a mostly left leaning education system and unreliable/hyped social media is their prime source of knowledge.

Scotland's issues at stake with Independence is about its place in the commercial world when the vast majority of its income comes from trade with the UK, where the BoE provides the backstop insurance to the currency you use. IMO it is far more serious issue at risk than just political dogma and popularism and your FM's simple pursuit of mechanism for 'winning' shows she does not seem to grasp it.
		
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Things will be just fine when the car manufacturers relocate from England to Scotland to be in an EU location...well that's what the SNP will tell you - and who knows...


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## HughJars (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			The average 16/17 year old has not decided who/what they think nor about politics. There is little understanding of how the things they buy arrive on the shelves or how public services are delivered. Unfortunately a mostly left leaning education system and unreliable/hyped social media is their prime source of knowledge.

Scotland's issues at stake with Independence is about its place in the commercial world when the vast majority of its income comes from trade with the UK, where the BoE provides the backstop insurance to the currency you use. IMO it is far more serious issue at risk than just political dogma and popularism and your FM's simple pursuit of mechanism for 'winning' shows she does not seem to grasp it.
		
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Absolute drivel. Yes many are not interested in politics - guess what - they won't vote. Many older folks similarly don't pay any attention (always quick to moan of course) - and guess what, they don't vote either. It's not COMPULSORY, if they're interested they'll vote.

As for social media being main source of knowledge, what would you prefer? The Daily Mail? The Express? Laura Kuensberg?


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## azazel (Dec 19, 2019)

DRW said:



			Not sure what point you are making about 85 year olds, are you ageist as well ? Of course they should have a vote.

With regards to, should 16/17 be able to vote(which is a stand alone question). Straight answer would be Nope, the law currently say 18 and don't really see the need for change but by all means, you can start a party to get the vote for 16/17 year olds if you wish to. Or if you want those 16/17 year old to vote you talk about, then have another vote in 1 or 2 years, which SNP would be in favour of anyway unless they win 

Noticed you didn't deal with either of the two bigger and more interesting points of the post :-

1) It is right that you can have the vote vote vote situation
2) should any referendums be done on a simple majority

Also interested in :-

3) Would it be right for SNP to ignore the result of any referendum, if they don't like the result ? (general question, not referring to Indy1 or EU ref and do not wish to refer to them)
		
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1. It really isn't the case that "we lost one referendum, we demand another". There have been three general elections and one Scottish Parliamentary election since 2014 and, in each one, the SNP has "won" the election in Scotland, and each time their manifesto has contained a commitment to independence/another referendum.
2. Yes.
3. See 1. It's like I posted yesterday, people need to stop looking at this as a Sturgeon/SNP thing, it's a people thing. If the SNP keep winning elections in Scotland on an independence manifesto then they're absolutely within their rights to call for another referendum, because THE PEOPLE keep voting them in.

The same goes for a (theoretical) post-independence Scotland. If a party stands on a ticket to re-unite Scotland with the UK, and THE PEOPLE vote that party in, then a referendum on whether we rejoin or not is perfectly legitimate.

Despite what much of the media, big business and definitely the Tories if not all parties want us to believe, THE PEOPLE are still sovereign in this country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2019)

azazel said:



			1. It really isn't the case that "we lost one referendum, we demand another". There have been three general elections and one Scottish Parliamentary election since 2014 and, in each one, the SNP has "won" the election in Scotland, and each time their manifesto has contained a commitment to independence/another referendum.
2. Yes.
3. See 1. It's like I posted yesterday, people need to stop looking at this as a Sturgeon/SNP thing, it's a people thing. If the SNP keep winning elections in Scotland on an independence manifesto then they're absolutely within their rights to call for another referendum, because THE PEOPLE keep voting them in.

The same goes for a (theoretical) post-independence Scotland. If a party stands on a ticket to re-unite Scotland with the UK, and THE PEOPLE vote that party in, then a referendum on whether we rejoin or not is perfectly legitimate.

Despite what much of the media, big business and definitely the Tories if not all parties want us to believe, THE PEOPLE are still sovereign in this country.
		
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Ah - 'The Will of the People' just to have a referendum - 'the Will of The People' has to be respected is my understanding.  Can't have a referendum on whether or not to have Indyref2 - or maybe you can.  Maybe Sturgeon may go down *that *route


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

HughJars said:



*Absolute drivel*. Yes many are not interested in politics - guess what - they won't vote. Many older folks similarly don't pay any attention (always quick to moan of course) - and guess what, they don't vote either. It's not COMPULSORY, if they're interested they'll vote.

As for social media being main source of knowledge, what would you prefer? The Daily Mail? The Express? Laura Kuensberg?
		
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Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.


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## stefanovic (Dec 19, 2019)

There are 2 sides to this.
It's not just a case of whether they want us, but also whether we want them.
'The dream that will never die' (Salmond) should also be taken to mean the dream of an independent England, which would be so much better off without the cuckoo in the nest.
We can then concentrate on our own people and our own economy. 
The end of the union is difficult for some people to come to terms with but it seems inevitable now.


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## DRW (Dec 19, 2019)

azazel said:



			1. It really isn't the case that "we lost one referendum, we demand another". There have been three general elections and one Scottish Parliamentary election since 2014 and, in each one, the SNP has "won" the election in Scotland, and each time their manifesto has contained a commitment to independence/another referendum.
2. Yes.
3. See 1. It's like I posted yesterday, people need to stop looking at this as a Sturgeon/SNP thing, it's a people thing. If the SNP keep winning elections in Scotland on an independence manifesto then they're absolutely within their rights to call for another referendum, because THE PEOPLE keep voting them in.

The same goes for a (theoretical) post-independence Scotland. If a party stands on a ticket to re-unite Scotland with the UK, and THE PEOPLE vote that party in, then a referendum on whether we rejoin or not is perfectly legitimate.

Despite what much of the media, big business and definitely the Tories if not all parties want us to believe, THE PEOPLE are still sovereign in this country.
		
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With regards to point 1, that is not what SNP is requesting, see my earlier post that quoted a newspaper :-




			NICOLA _*Sturgeon*_ has called for _*Holyrood*_ to be _*given*_ permanent _*powers*_ to hold an indefinite number of independence referendums
		
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If the above means that a vote every 5 years and/or after a general election, then I think it is bonkers, just bonkers. Sorry it can not work on that basis, totally bonkers expecting a vote every 5 years.

There is something very uneasy about the vote vote vote until you vote the way I want, irrelevant of what is good for the economy, stability and pitting each of your fellow countryman against each other and every 5ish years, would wreck that.

Surprised you don't see a problem with a simple majority.

I don't care if it is a SNP or Sturgeon or people thing(SNP are promoting the policy), I am merely thinking about individual people and businesses affect by this and how it affects the ecomony, which then comes back to people and governments. Ever thought people have voted for SNP because they like their other policies.

Just hope Scotland isn't over spending now, to promote SNP policies, as the payback has to happen and a reduction in the budget deficit must happen.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

DRW said:



			With regards to point 1, that is not what SNP is requesting, see my earlier post that quoted a newspaper :-



If the above means that a vote every 5 years and/or after a general election, then I think it is bonkers, just bonkers. Sorry it can not work on that basis, totally bonkers expecting a vote every 5 years.

There is something very uneasy about the vote vote vote until you vote the way I want, irrelevant of what is good for the economy, stability and pitting each of your fellow countryman against each other and every 5ish years, would wreck that.

Surprised you don't see a problem with a simple majority.

I don't care if it is a SNP or Sturgeon or people thing(SNP are promoting the policy), I am merely thinking about individual people and businesses affect by this and how it affects the ecomony, which then comes back to people and governments. Ever thought people have voted for SNP because they like their other policies.

Just hope Scotland isn't over spending now, to promote SNP policies, as the payback has to happen and a reduction in the budget deficit must happen.
		
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I agree, its is silly rhetoric, organisations (those things that provide jobs) would not invest if they thought every 5-10 years there was a possibility of a complete change of currency, regulations, legal standing, banking etc.

Uncertainty is a killer for investment planning so it would look elsewhere.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

DRW said:



			Not sure what point you are making about 85 year olds, are you ageist as well ? Of course they should have a vote.

With regards to, should 16/17 be able to vote(which is a stand alone question). Straight answer would be Nope, the law currently say 18 and don't really see the need for change but by all means, you can start a party to get the vote for 16/17 year olds if you wish to. Or if you want those 16/17 year old to vote you talk about, then have another vote in 1 or 2 years, which SNP would be in favour of anyway unless they win 

Noticed you didn't deal with either of the two bigger and more interesting points of the post :-

1) It is right that you can have the vote vote vote situation
2) should any referendums be done on a simple majority

Also interested in :-

3) Would it be right for SNP to ignore the result of any referendum, if they don't like the result ? (general question, not referring to Indy1 or EU ref and do not wish to refer to them)
		
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Answers
[1] Isn't that called democracy
[2] Yes. The winning party in a narrow vote has the right to accept not to progress if they feel they do not have enough support [Like the Leave vote should have done.]
[3] Yes If they feel they have been lied to, misled and have been made false promises by the winning party.


Re me being ageist. I clearly am not but you seem to be  in favour of denying 16/17 year olds the right to vote for their future.
Do you also wish to deny EU Scottish residents the chance to vote..


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## patricks148 (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.
		
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so do you really think none of this has been considered?


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## DRW (Dec 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re me being ageist. I clearly am not but you seem to be  in favour of denying 16/17 year olds the right to vote for their future.
		
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The law is denying them. I said I see no need for the law to change. You haven't give any reasons, apart from trying to attack my comment, good debating.

Why not allow 12 to 17 or maybe allow anyone to vote as soon as they are born, why start at 16 ??? same as why start at 18. There are a number of good reasons I would say from 18, doesn't make them right, law also states it but if I listed them, I would expect you would not see them as good reasons.




			Do you also wish to deny EU Scottish residents the chance to vote..
		
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Where did that come from, You have just made up that stuff?? When I have said or inferred that or made you believe that. Stop judging me by your standards.

All I have said, with regards to vote, vote vote, is that it is bad for the economy, stability and pitting your fellow countryman(people living in scotland, I was thinking btw) against each other. If you can not see that, then sadly your eyes have been closed by the having an independence vote only and your views of Englishman. I disagree with the simple majority voting system, as it is a silly basis to base it on, whereby such a major national change could come down to ONE persons vote.

Think I am done, I haven't once said you should not have a vote.  I have tho, questioned in more than one different direction over quite a number of posts, Why Now and why every 5 years, why vote vote vote vote forever, why simple majority. Think of business and individuals and economy, look at the bigger picture in my eyes.

Have a good Christmas, off for some work, as I am done.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so do you really think none of this has been considered?
		
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And answered on here many many times since 2013 

Sooper dooper our new Scottish shadow secretary is the Rochdale MP
I don't suppose Ian Murray can shadow everything Scottish


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## Jacko_G (Dec 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			I see *WJK* has kicked off again this morning.
		
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Absolutely hilarious, you come up with that all by yourself? Thought not.


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## woofers (Dec 19, 2019)

I am now at the stage of being completely worn down by the constant hectoring from Ms Sturgeon and her Parliament about a second referendum on Independence.
So as far as I am concerned I would like her wish to be granted. Have another referendum.
But whatever the result is, abide by it. 
No re-runs now or in 5 years, or at anytime, because the losing side didn’t like the outcome or because the political landscape has ‘changed‘.
If it’s stay in the UK, then stay and shut up.
If it’s leave the UK, then off you go, good bye and good luck.
This might come across as capitulation. I don’t care anymore.
Probably part the plan, we all have experience of small children, or partners who just go on and on and on until you have to respond. This is not much different.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 19, 2019)

woofers said:



			I am now at the stage of being completely worn down by the constant hectoring from Ms Sturgeon and her Parliament about a second referendum on Independence.
So as far as I am concerned I would like her wish to be granted. Have another referendum.
But whatever the result is, abide by it.
No re-runs now or in 5 years, or at anytime, because the losing side didn’t like the outcome or because the political landscape has ‘changed‘.
If it’s stay in the UK, then stay and shut up.
If it’s leave the UK, then off you go, good bye and good luck.
This might come across as capitulation. I don’t care anymore.
Probably part the plan, we all have experience of small children, or partners who just go on and on and on until you have to respond. This is not much different.
		
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Scotland like any country has a right to decide who rules them. We are 4 independent nations who have a right to be ruled within our own borders.

Look at the strides made behind the iron curtain.

Never be afraid of your destiny.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Scotland like any country has a right to decide who rules them. We are 4 independent nations who have a right to be ruled within our own borders.

Look at the strides made behind the iron curtain.

Never be afraid of your destiny.
		
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But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.


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## patricks148 (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.
		
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luckily its not down to you


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## Jacko_G (Dec 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.
		
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I really don't care what you see. The sooner Scotland is an independent nation making their own decisions the better.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I really don't care what you see. The sooner Scotland is an independent nation making their own decisions the better.
		
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If you don't want to see the opinions of others it's perhaps unwise to read a public forum.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you look at the age voting groups the only thing stopping Scotland from being a normal independent country is the majority of it's citizens aged over 60.
Do you think it is fair that over 85 year olds can have a vote on independence but 16/17 year olds cannot.
		
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I dont think 16/17 year olds should have a vote on independence, it's too big for them and they have too little life experience to form a reasoned opinion.

From personal experience my friends and I were all anti English when we were teenagers and would have voted to leave in a heartbeat. we got pissed off at trivial things and were fuelled by braveheart and the kind of anti english pish that doon and co spout on here at any given opportunity. 

But with age and responsibilities comes wisdom and the ability to think for ouselves. we have all lost the chip on our shoulders and are all against the break up of the union as we see the uncertainties and potential damage it could bring.


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			The average 16/17 year old has not decided who/what they think nor about politics. There is little understanding of how the things they buy arrive on the shelves or how public services are delivered. Unfortunately a mostly left leaning education system and unreliable/hyped social media is their prime source of knowledge.

Scotland's issues at stake with Independence is about its place in the commercial world when the vast majority of its income comes from trade with the UK, where the BoE provides the backstop insurance to the currency you use. IMO it is far more serious issue at risk than just political dogma and popularism and your FM's simple pursuit of mechanism for 'winning' shows she does not seem to grasp it.
		
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lobthewedge said:



			I dont think 16/17 year olds should have a vote on independence, it's too big for them and they have too little life experience to form a reasoned opinion.

From personal experience my friends and I were all anti English when we were teenagers and would have voted to leave in a heartbeat. we got pissed off at trivial things and were fuelled by braveheart and the kind of anti english pish that doon and co spout on here at any given opportunity.

But with age and responsibilities comes wisdom and the ability to think for ouselves. we have all lost the chip on our shoulders and are all against the break up of the union as we see the uncertainties and potential damage it could bring.
		
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I disagree, they're old enough to pay tax, get married and have kids they should vote. Just because they may  have been to school which are notoriously lefty (according to Drdel)  shouldn't preclude them.from voting about the system  they pay into.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2019)

No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.
		
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would like to see what percentage of 16/17 year olds work full time and earn enough to pay tax?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			would like to see what percentage of 16/17 year olds work full time and earn enough to pay tax?
		
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My 17 year old granddaughter is one for starters.
Owns her own business and drives a new Merc.
She can make over £2k on a busy week and has been known to work 14 hour days. Sometimes starting to see clients at 5.30am.


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## DRW (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.
		
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You and funkycoldmedina do realise taxation is not the basis for a vote and personally think that is right, everyone above age X should get a vote.

Also why not ages below 16, if you wish to base it on taxation, as anyone whatever age can pay tax, you may wish to read this :-

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/paying

There are good reasons why 16/17 years old, should vote but saying based on taxation is not a reason and in fact is a bad reason IMHO.


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

DRW said:



			You and funkycoldmedina do realise taxation is not the basis for a vote and personally think that is right, everyone above age X should get a vote.

Also why not ages below 16, if you wish to base it on taxation, as anyone whatever age can pay tax, you may wish to read this :-

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/paying

There are good reasons why 16/17 years old, should vote but saying based on taxation is not a reason and in fact is a bad reason IMHO.
		
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not that long ago 18 year olds were thought not old enough to vote. so times change

If you can fight for your country, get married, have children.... yet your opinion dousn't count??


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
*How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt*
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.
		
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would this be offset against 300 year of tax, from its people, industry all going to westminster before devolution, of which 30 year would be the boom years fro Oils and gas... very little of which was ever re invested in Scotland
oh and lets not forget the re writing of the maritime map, which overnight moved a few of the biggest oilfields into english waters??


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## DRW (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			not that long ago 18 year olds were thought not old enough to vote. so times change

If you can fight for your country, get married, have children.... yet your opinion dousn't count??
		
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Exactly loads of good reasons why they should have a vote(not that your list there are necessarily good ones, as IIRC two of them reasons you need parents permissions to do??)

I agree there are lots of good reasons, some other countries already allow it(not that many but some do).

The biggest concern I would have, would be are they free of undue influence and more likely to vote as told by their parents. Yeah I know the papers/internet blah blah blah affect 18 years old or older, but at 16 you are till very young in 'mental'/undue influence terms.

As I say whatever age you say 16,17,18,15 and so on, there are plenty of reason to or not to, a line has to be crossed in the line at an age. The rest is just arguments.

But paying tax is *NOT* a reason as it could mean a 10 year old would vote and then anyone not paying tax should not have a vote, hmmm interesting concept that. I do note you did not disagree with me over taxation(and I didn't comment before on anything else until this post)


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## HughJars (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.
		
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*Why would England want border controls?
*What currency we might use hasn't been decided, pound, euro, the smackeroonie
*Without Westminster administrating our finances, I'm sure we'd soon have that "7%" under control. We currently "spend" 5% of our GDP on Armed Forces, the highest in the world  ...aye right. The end of Barnett is a tremendous thing. 
*We won't be in the UK
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*And? Due to the 2015 crash, costs were slashed, most companies are now profitable at over $30pb


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

DRW said:



			Exactly loads of good reasons why they should have a vote(not that your list there are necessarily good ones, as IIRC two of them reasons you need parents permissions to do??)

I agree there are lots of good reasons, some other countries already allow it(not that many but some do).

The biggest concern I would have, would be are they free of undue influence and more likely to vote as told by their parents. Yeah I know the papers/internet blah blah blah affect 18 years old or older, but at 16 you are till very young in 'mental'/undue influence terms.

As I say whatever age you say 16,17,18,15 and so on, there are plenty of reason to or not to, a line has to be crossed in the line at an age. The rest is just arguments.

But paying tax is *NOT* a reason as it could mean a 10 year old would vote and then anyone not paying tax should not have a vote, hmmm interesting concept that. I do note you did not disagree with me over taxation(and I didn't comment before on anything else until this post)
		
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i didn't mention tax as there are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't pay tax anyway.. even at 18 or even 21.

as for the other things, TBh i not sure what you would need your parents permis for, but my main argument is that not that long ago 18 was thought too young ..

 you can have a child... i don't think you need your parents permis for that and if so vote for the wellbeing of your child


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My 17 year old granddaughter is one for starters.
Owns her own business and drives a new Merc.
She can make over £2k on a busy week and has been known to work 14 hour days. Sometimes starting to see clients at 5.30am.
		
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Sorry but I’m interested to know what job a 17 year old does to earn £2k a week and does the £2k go on insurance for a brand new Merc 🤔


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## Wolf (Dec 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I’m interested to know what job a 17 year old does to earn £2k a week and does the £2k go on insurance for a brand new Merc 🤔
		
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I was just wondering the same thing, especially as that brand new Merc would  need be bought outright as the dealership wouldn't  be able to finance it for that age of customer unless mummy and daddy financed it, but then that wouldn't be the 17year olds car 🤔, insurance would be extortionate. Then that brings me back to what business are they running with that sort of turnover.


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I was just wondering the same thing, especially as that brand new Merc would d need be bought outright as the dealership woukdnt be able to finance it for that age of customer unless munmy and daddy financed it, but then that wouldn't be the 17year olds car 🤔, insurance would be extortionate. Then that brings me back to what business are they running with thay sort of turnover.
		
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High class call girl?

 only joking Doon


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I’m interested to know what job a 17 year old does to earn £2k a week and does the £2k go on insurance for a brand new Merc 🤔
		
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I pay £2,200 per year to insure my 18 year old daughter's basic Ford Fiesta, I dread to think what a brand new merc would cost...


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			would this be offset against 300 year of tax, from its people, industry all going to westminster before devolution, of which 30 year would be the boom years fro Oils and gas... very little of which was ever re invested in Scotland
oh and lets not forget the re writing of the maritime map, which overnight moved a few of the biggest oilfields into english waters??
		
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Its obvious you and I share different views. This subject is very emotional for some and is leading this thread down the path of knee-jerk bickering. 

My opinion, and that's all it is, is based on my professional experience and I simply think that Independence for Scotland would be a grave error were it to occur. 

However what I also think is damaging Scotland is the time being spent by the SNP miss-reading the signs in the world economy and trade. Companies hate uncertainty and that was removed when the vote of 2014 was taken. Now the, largely anti-Union, rhetoric has resurfaced which raises the question what internationally company would invest significant sums with that uncertainty hanging around when there are more stable business environments elsewhere?


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its obvious you and I share different views. This subject is very emotional for some and is leading this thread down the path of knee-jerk bickering.

My opinion, and that's all it is, is based on my professional experience and I simply think that Independence for Scotland would be a grave error were it to occur.

However what I also think is damaging Scotland is the time being spent by the SNP miss-reading the signs in the world economy and trade. Companies hate uncertainty and that was removed when the vote of 2014 was taken. Now the, largely anti-Union, rhetoric has resurfaced which raises the question what internationally company would invest significant sums with that uncertainty hanging around when there are more stable business environments elsewhere?
		
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you keep mentioning "uncertainty" but you appear fine with it as far as Brixit goes... whatever suites your argument i suppose


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

DRW said:



			Exactly loads of good reasons why they should have a vote(not that your list there are necessarily good ones, as IIRC two of them reasons you need parents permissions to do??)

I agree there are lots of good reasons, some other countries already allow it(not that many but some do).

*The biggest concern I would have, would be are they free of undue influence and more likely to vote as told by their parents*. Yeah I know the papers/internet blah blah blah affect 18 years old or older, but at 16 you are till very young in 'mental'/undue influence terms.

As I say whatever age you say 16,17,18,15 and so on, there are plenty of reason to or not to, a line has to be crossed in the line at an age. The rest is just arguments.

But paying tax is *NOT* a reason as it could mean a 10 year old would vote and then anyone not paying tax should not have a vote, hmmm interesting concept that. I do note you did not disagree with me over taxation(and I didn't comment before on anything else until this post)
		
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Bit like my 90yr old MiL then...  

In lead up to _that_ Referendum we asked what she was going to vote.  Then 87 she said 'Oot'.  Why? because her friends Mrs T and Mrs K were voting Oot - though she didn't know why.  In the end she didn't vote.

Mind you - now 90 she surprised us last week by revealing that she voted Green Party.  Think she's been swayed by Greta Thunberg and gets climate change - also I'd like to think that - as she's from South Yorkshire - she rather liked the previous Mayor of Sheffield and soon to be redundant MEP - the Green Parties Magid Magid...


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you keep mentioning *"uncertainty" *but you *appear fine with it as far as Brixit goes*... whatever suites your argument i suppose

Click to expand...

I did indeed vote for the UK to leave the EU - I did not vote for the delay extended by the stupidity that unravelled in the HoC.

I took my view because I believe the EU is becoming unmanageable and is debt fuelled. As a net contributor and because many of the members see the UK as 'rich' we would face demands that would harm the UK. I also believe the EU is not in a fit state to address the issues facing the world's changing economies. Thus the 'uncertainty' is a necessary phase of change which the UK can finance. Scotland, on its own, does not IMO have the same economic resilience or size.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I’m interested to know what job a 17 year old does to earn £2k a week and does the £2k go on insurance for a brand new Merc 🤔
		
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Her insurance is eye watering.
She is a very talented make up artist with her own salon.
Hopes to break into TV and films.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so do you really think none of this has been considered?
		
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course it has - and deliberately swept under the carpet as the answers are not what the SNP would want people to hear


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			I did indeed vote for the UK to leave the EU - I did not vote for the delay extended by the stupidity that unravelled in the HoC.

I took my view because I believe the EU is becoming unmanageable and is debt fuelled. As a net contributor and because many of the members see the UK as 'rich' we would face demands that would harm the UK. I also believe the EU is not in a fit state to address the issues facing the world's changing economies. Thus the 'uncertainty' is a necessary phase of change which the UK can finance. Scotland, on its own, does not IMO have the same economic resilience or size.
		
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i would suggest you didn't know what you were voting for then if you though it would be quick...

 its not just the HOC the blame lies at, its one part of it... the Tory Party they spent 3 years making a horlicks of it, with most of the current Shower voting against TM deal.

I'm glad you said "in your opinion" as thats all it is


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

May be of interest to radio listeners...James O'Brien on LBC is currently (12:09 20/12) discussing Scottish Independence,


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Her insurance is eye watering.
She is a very talented make up artist with her own salon.
Hopes to break into TV and films.
		
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Her own salon at 17 ? Fully qualified and certified? 

Seriously ? Sorry but i think your are talking porkies there but if she has then it’s amazing she has been able to get a business at 17


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			I dont think 16/17 year olds should have a vote on independence, it's too big for them and they have too little life experience to form a reasoned opinion.

From personal experience my friends and I were all anti English when we were teenagers and would have voted to leave in a heartbeat. we got pissed off at trivial things and were fuelled by braveheart and the kind of anti english pish that doon and co spout on here at any given opportunity.

But with age and responsibilities comes wisdom and the ability to think for ouselves. we have all lost the chip on our shoulders and are all against the break up of the union as we see the uncertainties and potential damage it could bring.
		
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So anyone who is for independence has a chip.on their shoulder and has been influenced by Brave heart?

Great post. 

Well thought out educated response.  🙄


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So anyone who is for independence has a chip.on their shoulder and has been influenced by Brave heart?

Great post.

Well thought out educated response.  🙄
		
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Freeeedomm


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Freeeedomm

Click to expand...

I think Lob has been on the whisky


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Her insurance is eye watering.
She is a very talented make up artist with her own salon.
Hopes to break into TV and films.
		
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Is what she tells mum and dad!😆


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

Some absolutely pathetic responses attacking a 17 year old girl. 

Poor form.


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## patricks148 (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Some absolutely pathetic responses attacking a 17 year old girl.

Poor form.
		
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in my defence i was only joking


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## lobthewedge (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So anyone who is for independence has a chip.on their shoulder and has been influenced by Brave heart?

Great post.

Well thought out educated response.  🙄
		
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My post clearly made out it was my younger more immature self that carried the chip on my shoulder and had this mentality, pretty typical of many Scottish teenagers in the late 90's i would reckon.

Read the post again and stop twisting my words.


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## lobthewedge (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My 17 year old granddaughter is one for starters.
Owns her own business and drives a new Merc.
She can make over £2k on a busy week and has been known to work 14 hour days. Sometimes starting to see clients at 5.30am.
		
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Good on her, we'll let her vote.

So thats one.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So anyone who is for independence has a chip.on their shoulder and has been influenced by Brave heart?

Great post.

Well thought out educated response.  🙄
		
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Reading his post he isn’t saying what you suggest ? He appears to be talking about how he was thinking when he was a youngster


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Her own salon at 17 ? Fully qualified and certified?

Seriously ? Sorry but i think your are talking porkies there but if she has then it’s amazing she has been able to get a business at 17
		
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I don't know why I am bothering to reply to you as you are so rude and arrogant.
She got her basic qualifications two years ago when still at school and has passed advanced courses since.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Some absolutely pathetic responses attacking a 17 year old girl.

Poor form.
		
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Since the whole thing is obviously made up I wouldn’t get too stressed!😁


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Is what she tells mum and dad!😆
		
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She has already done some film work..


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She has already done some “film” work..
		
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Ooer missus! 😂


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## DRW (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Some absolutely pathetic responses attacking a 17 year old girl.

Poor form.
		
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Agreed not sure how it turned into a personal attack really. All he was doing was trying to highlight she is paying taxes and he felt she should have a vote at 17.

Good on her, hope she is successful, it takes alot to get there and running a business isn't for everyone, but good on her for trying.

Whilst it would appear Doon is quoting Turnover/headline figures(probably including VAT, if she is turnover that much consistently), this is much different to the much lower net profits figures after VAT, rents, products, light/heat and so on. But best of luck to her whatever.


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## Twire (Dec 20, 2019)

I've had to delete one post. Be careful what you post please.


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2019)

As 'cash' handling businesses they are often fertile hunting grounds and easy pickings for HMRC Tax Inspectors. Unless the annual accounts are squeaky clean it might be prudent not to be publicly posting about showy displays of abnormal income and/or expenditure on 'expensive' personal assets.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			As 'cash' handling businesses they are often fertile hunting grounds and easy pickings for HMRC Tax Inspectors. Unless the annual accounts are squeaky clean it might be prudent not to be publicly posting about showy displays of abnormal income and/or expenditure on 'expensive' personal assets.
		
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🙄🙄🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 20, 2019)

Infractions issued , one member banned permanently and another for 7 days and multiple posts deleted.

We will not tolerate swearing, trolling or flaming on these boards,


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Infractions issued , one member banned permanently and another for 7 days and multiple posts deleted.

We will not tolerate swearing, trolling or flaming on these boards,
		
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And about time too.

👍


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## Jacko_G (Dec 20, 2019)

Some of the rhetoric and trolling by some is an utter disgrace.

I am now banning myself from replying further.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 20, 2019)

Some on here should consider what I wrote on A Merry Christmas thread title earlier today. Embarrassing at times.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 20, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And about time too.

👍
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I sometimes have my kids beside me when I'm reading forum posts and I certainly don't need them seeing some of the language that has been used in some recent posts.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 22, 2019)

Would be interesting to understand what NS says about the issues of National debt - what are they going toi suggest to accept the circa £150bn share of National debt? How do they intend to oversome this or do they seriosuly think that this can be forgotten and the rest of the UK just assume the share?

and, following this seemingly unsolvalble problem, what are the plans for:

A currency
To deal with the huge budget defecit
Applucation to join the EU
Border controls with England and others
If there are logical plans to oversome these obstacles, then the Scottish public should have the necessary info to make a call - without it, it looks like suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year


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## USER1999 (Dec 22, 2019)

It's easy, no debt, use the pound, already in, and no border.

Dream on.


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## BrianM (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Would be interesting to understand what NS says about the issues of National debt - what are they going toi suggest to accept the circa £150bn share of National debt? How do they intend to oversome this or do they seriosuly think that this can be forgotten and the rest of the UK just assume the share?

and, following this seemingly unsolvalble problem, what are the plans for:

A currency
To deal with the huge budget defecit
Applucation to join the EU
Border controls with England and others
*If there are logical plans to oversome these obstacles*, then the Scottish public should have the necessary info to make a call - without it, it looks like suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

Click to expand...

Wish they gave us this info when deciding to leave the EU.......

Like anything you would hope there would be a plan in place and people told what they are hoping to do so people can make an informed decision so we can make up up our minds on what is best for each person individually.
In the past, I've voted to stay in the UK and stay in the EU, see how well thats worked for me.
Like in the past, ill make a decision on what i think is best for me and my family.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Would be interesting to understand what NS says about the issues of National debt - what are they going toi suggest to accept the circa £150bn share of National debt? How do they intend to oversome this or do they seriosuly think that this can be forgotten and the rest of the UK just assume the share?

and, following this seemingly unsolvalble problem, what are the plans for:

A currency
To deal with the huge budget defecit
Applucation to join the EU
Border controls with England and others
If there are logical plans to oversome these obstacles, then the Scottish public should have the necessary info to make a call - without it, it looks like suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

Click to expand...

Our £ of course 
A budget defecit under Westminster financial control
Virtually green lighted
Same as Johnson's planned England/Ireland NI


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## patricks148 (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Would be interesting to understand what NS says about the issues of National debt - what are they going toi suggest to accept the circa £150bn share of National debt? How do they intend to oversome this or do they seriosuly think that this can be forgotten and the rest of the UK just assume the share?

and, following this seemingly unsolvalble problem, what are the plans for:

A currency
To deal with the huge budget defecit
Applucation to join the EU
Border controls with England and others
If there are logical plans to oversome these obstacles, then the Scottish public should have the necessary info to make a call - without it, it looks like suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

Click to expand...

already asked and answered in 597 and 599


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			It's easy, no debt, use the pound, already in, and no border.

Dream on.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like May’s Brexit wish list...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 23, 2019)

I'm sometimes wonder if a reporter asked Ghandi  'what currency will you use and what about the borders' when he did his walk across India.


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			already asked and answered in 597 and 599
		
Click to expand...

597 is mainly waffle. Hughjar's 599 is far more considered. Although I'd question the accuracy of his assumption on the deficit, he's right on non-returned tax revenues. However, if you include private sector raised tax revenues, not included in the IFS figures, which are very close to the GERS report, the GDP drops from -7 to -4.8.

That 4.8% isn't a million miles away from the 3% needed to meet the EU financial criteria for membership, and I'd expect that to be achieved with sensible realignment. Personally, I'd put a solid tick next to EU entry apart from the issue of monetary policy control when sterling interest rates would be controlled by the BoE, i.e. outside the EU.

Sturgeon has already addressed the issue by saying Scotland would have its own currency within a few years, and the best way would(probably) be to shift to the Euro. You could call it a transition period... sounds familiar??

The current issue, not widely reported, is Scotland's recent cap in hand to the UK Treasury for the almost £1bn overspend on top of its expected overspend. Being that far out on the budget, as a percentage, is at best clumsy - lets not call it vote buying. Quite how that would fit in with the EU remains to be seen. Would Scotland be a net receiver from the EU? Would Scotland be straight jacketed like Greece, and more recently Italy? Who knows.

One thing is for sure, oil revenue shouldn't be considered the be all in cushioning Scotland's finances. The oil price, courtesy of the US and Canada's shale oil production, won't ever be that profitable again. And if sanctions are lifted on Iran, as they briefly were a few years ago, expect Iran to flood the market with cheap oil again, driving down oil prices as it did 4 years ago.

On the share of the UK's debt; that would be offset by Scotland's share of the UK assets, just as the UK is to receive a share of EU assets once it leaves the EU. Quite how that equation will square up, who knows. However, what would be extremely risky for Scotland would, as a number of SNP politicians have suggested is to walk away from that debt. A country reneging on a debt would see lending interest rates causing immense problems for Scotland's economy - I'd hazard a guess that's just SNP posturing as it would be worse than stupid to do it.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Wish they gave us this info when deciding to leave the EU.......

Like anything you would hope there would be a plan in place and people told what they are hoping to do so people can make an informed decision so we can make up up our minds on what is best for each person individually.
In the past, I've voted to stay in the UK and stay in the EU, see how well thats worked for me.
Like in the past, ill make a decision on what i think is best for me and my family.
		
Click to expand...

and good luck with that Brian - but if i was a Scot i would want a lot more info from the Scottish Government and also from Westminster as the situation with the debt is at the heart of everything - as is currency. If Scotland voted out and wanted to use the pound that is fine - same euro, remnimbi or dollar - but they would have zero say on anything to do with monetary poilcy by the owners of these currencies. Similiary, i woukld also look to a clarification statemnet from the EU on criteria for entry, especially relating to having a currency and budget defecits


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			already asked and answered in 597 and 599
		
Click to expand...




patricks148 said:



			already asked and answered in 597 and 599
		
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there are no answers in there - you think because that oil revenues from Scotland 40 years ago exempt you from taking a share of the Union's debt - dreamland and not even worth saying any more. And, the UK spends 2% of Defence not 5%.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our £ of course
A budget defecit under Westminster financial control
Virtually green lighted
Same as Johnson's planned England/Ireland NI
		
Click to expand...

you are welcome to have your pound but it will need to be an internationally recognised currency and i have seen nothing to suggest that - you can make your own currency, you can even peg it to sterling but you will have zero say on UK monetary policy - that is a fact


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## drdel (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			Would be interesting to understand what NS says about the issues of National debt - what are they going toi suggest to accept the circa £150bn share of National debt? How do they intend to oversome this or do they seriosuly think that this can be forgotten and the rest of the UK just assume the share?

and, following this seemingly unsolvalble problem, what are the plans for:

A currency
To deal with the huge budget defecit
Applucation to join the EU
Border controls with England and others
If there are logical plans to oversome these obstacles, then the Scottish public should have the necessary info to make a call - without it, it looks like suicide

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

Click to expand...

If we assumed the SNP succeeded with Independence and EU membership, then IMO...

Currency:
EU would require adoption of the Euro and ECB rules. The current 5% over-spend would be required to reduce to 3% within a specified period, a hard 'top slice' drop of 50%.
Scotland would need to pay their contribution the Brussels; EU may provide a rebate but their own budget is under strain.

Deficit:
Above EU's membership expectation - may need to be reduced before admission which would be hard as it is caused by systemic problems.
There would be a need to meet the NATO commitment and / or do a deal via UK that would still come at a cost.
Need to repay/adopt portion of UK debt - further frustrates EU 3% limitation.

EU:
Membership is likely to come with proviso on finances, deficit control etc a per Italy, Greece etc
EU control of forestry, fishing, oil/gas ... and in longer term tax rates as harmonisation progresses

Border
Border controls necessary with capital and operating costs and tariff with UK on the 75% exports reliant on the UK-EU 'deal'.
Air Traffic control management required.

Fishing:
Under EU control thus permitting Danish and Dutch access that have very 'efficient' factory ships against which Scottish fishing would have problems competing.

UK Assets:
Actuarial issue that would see trade-of with assets on Scottish soil - unlikely to help with the annual overspend.

IMO the economics would be painful for some considerable time for Scottish residents since the budget issues are deeply embedded so would inevitably cause public services, education, health and infrastructure to be drastically reduced and/or income and corporation taxes to rise.


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## Kellfire (Dec 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Think you're right about the salmond case.
Can't wait to see WJK's face leaving #10 after being told to do one, bulldog chewing a wasp springs to mind.
		
Click to expand...

Are you an adult? Just wondering.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			If we assumed the SNP succeeded with Independence and EU membership, then IMO...

Currency:
EU would require adoption of the Euro and ECB rules. The current 5% over-spend would be required to reduce to 3% within a specified period, a hard 'top slice' drop of 50%.
Scotland would need to pay their contribution the Brussels; EU may provide a rebate but their own budget is under strain.

Deficit:
Above EU's membership expectation - may need to be reduced before admission which would be hard as it is caused by systemic problems.
There would be a need to meet the NATO commitment and / or do a deal via UK that would still come at a cost.
Need to repay/adopt portion of UK debt - further frustrates EU 3% limitation.

EU:
Membership is likely to come with proviso on finances, deficit control etc a per Italy, Greece etc
EU control of forestry, fishing, oil/gas ... and in longer term tax rates as harmonisation progresses

Border
Border controls necessary with capital and operating costs and tariff with UK on the 75% exports reliant on the UK-EU 'deal'.
Air Traffic control management required.

Fishing:
Under EU control thus permitting Danish and Dutch access that have very 'efficient' factory ships against which Scottish fishing would have problems competing.

UK Assets:
Actuarial issue that would see trade-of with assets on Scottish soil - unlikely to help with the annual overspend.

IMO the economics would be painful for some considerable time for Scottish residents since the budget issues are deeply embedded so would inevitably cause public services, education, health and infrastructure to be drastically reduced and/or income and corporation taxes to rise.
		
Click to expand...

good points. On currency, if Scotland believe that it can just be a sterling user until they can join the EU, they would need this commitment from the EU as i am not sure the EU would let anyone in without their own currency - and any agreement should be made public as part of any vote as it is core to what they are promoting. Not sure how they would do the euro-isation of a country based on echchange rates that have nothing to do with that country

And on the debt - they would not be able to "adopt" any of the UK debt as that would be illegal under the bond covenants - no creditor of UK Gilts would ever agree to changing to borrower from UK to Scotland. They would have to borrow on their own merit - but again, the amount and reality of doing so would also be impossible to any international lenders as the country likely wouldn't have a cureency and a very poor fiscal position and no track record


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## chrisd (Dec 23, 2019)

[


PNWokingham said:



			. They would have to borrow on their own merit - but again, the amount and reality of doing so would also be impossible to any international lenders as the country likely wouldn't have a cureency and a very poor fiscal position and no track record
		
Click to expand...

 Even if they could borrow, given their Level of indebtedness, wouldn't the interest rates be prohibitively high ?


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## Dando (Dec 23, 2019)

chrisd said:



			[


Even if they could borrow, given their Level of indebtedness, wouldn't the interest rates be prohibitively high ?
		
Click to expand...

They could try  wonga loans 😂🤣


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## patricks148 (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			there are no answers in there - you think because that oil revenues from Scotland 40 years ago exempt you from taking a share of the Union's debt - dreamland and not even worth saying any more. And, the UK spends 2% of Defence not 5%.
		
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so all the Tax rev from the O&G ind for 30 years didn't go straight to westminster?

happy to take the taxes from Scotland for the last 300 years?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 23, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			you are welcome to have your pound but it will need to be an internationally recognised currency and i have seen nothing to suggest that - you can make your own currency, you can even peg it to sterling but you will have zero say on UK monetary policy - that is a fact
		
Click to expand...

So currency is the only thing Scotland has worry about after your 'cutting ' assessment. 
I think we shall do just fine as an ordinary independent country.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So currency is the only thing Scotland has worry about after your 'cutting ' assessment. 
I think we shall do just fine as an ordinary independent country.

Click to expand...

The sadness is your intention to not remain independent...


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## Hobbit (Dec 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so all the Tax rev from the O&G ind for 30 years didn't go straight to westminster?

happy to take the taxes from Scotland for the last 300 years?
		
Click to expand...

Tax Rev from Scotland equates to 8% of UK total tax revenue. Scotland expenditure equates to 9.3% of total tax revenue.

Only Northern Ireland receives more expenditure per head.

I wonder what the tax rev for the City of London is compared to North Sea oil and gas?


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## Kellfire (Dec 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Tax Rev from Scotland equates to 8% of UK total tax revenue. Scotland expenditure equates to 9.3% of total tax revenue.

Only Northern Ireland receives more expenditure per head.

I wonder what the tax rev for the City of London is compared to North Sea oil and gas?

Click to expand...

You are of course right but imagine if money was actually invested proportionately outside of the south east instead of just plugging holes. When they do attempt it, they balls it up. HS2 anyone?


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## drdel (Dec 23, 2019)

Prof McClaren at Glasgow Business School reckons it would unsustainable along the lines I mentioned earlier. He also suggests the SNP are well aware of the disaster it would cause.

“Scotland would have to do without a lot of money - unlike the UK, which will save money as a net contributor if it leaves the EU.

“Scotland has been a net beneficiary since North Sea oil revenues have dried up. Independence would therefore lead to austerity.

“The Scottish government would have to plug the hole in the budget that would be caused by the exit.”

“Proponents can always claim that the economy would benefit from independence.

“Scotland’s problem would be tax revenue. Scotland would lose £10 billion in Britain’s annual transfer payments.

“This corresponds to ten percent of the Scottish budget. How can the Scottish government rebalance the budget?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so all the Tax rev from the O&G ind for 30 years didn't go straight to westminster?

happy to take the taxes from Scotland for the last 300 years?
		
Click to expand...

what has past tax revenue got to do with anything - we have probably been subsidising Scotland for most of the Union but that has nick all to do with plans going forward


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So currency is the only thing Scotland has worry about after your 'cutting ' assessment. 
I think we shall do just fine as an ordinary independent country.

Click to expand...

you have plenty to worry about if there enough gullable to support independance with no idea of how you survive.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2019)

chrisd said:



			[


Even if they could borrow, given their Level of indebtedness, wouldn't the interest rates be prohibitively high ?
		
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tbh Chris - if they leave without sorting out the debt - and no idea how they do that - and if they manage to have a currency - and if they have a 5%+ budget defecit - they will struggle to borrow as the sums do nott add up. I am not having a go at Scotland and if they want to go i would not lose sleep although i would rather they stay - but they willhave foooled the public into doing something that is so mad on any level of analysis that Wee Jimmie and the Krankie cronies should be jailed for deception


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## Kellfire (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			tbh Chris - if they leave without sorting out the debt - and no idea how they do that - and if they manage to have a currency - and if they have a 5%+ budget defecit - they will struggle to borrow as the sums do nott add up. I am not having a go at Scotland and if they want to go i would not lose sleep although i would rather they stay - but they willhave foooled the public into doing something that is so mad on any level of analysis that Wee Jimmie and the Krankie cronies should be jailed for deception
		
Click to expand...

So should we jail those who promoted Brexit for the same reasons?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			tbh Chris - if they leave without sorting out the debt - and no idea how they do that - and if they manage to have a currency - and if they have a 5%+ budget defecit - they will struggle to borrow as the sums do nott add up. I am not having a go at Scotland and if they want to go i would not lose sleep although i would rather they stay - but they willhave foooled the public into doing something that is so mad on any level of analysis that Wee Jimmie and the Krankie cronies should be jailed for deception
		
Click to expand...

I do not recall any SNP politician saying that we will leave the UK without taking our share of the UK debt no matter how unfair that is.
As for fooling the public, for a nation that has just voted for Brexit and Johnson you will have sent many irony metres in orbit there 
For someone who says he is not bothered by the outcome your words and language suggest otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2019)

Remind me - are there still some suggesting that if we don’t agree an EU trade deal next year that we don’t pay EU the WA bill - now £33bn I think.  Just wondering if UK would walk away from that and whether some thinks it OK were UK to do that. Or have they all shut up.  The ERG mob were certainly adamant that we should just do that. Just wondering.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do not recall any SNP politician saying that we will leave the UK without taking our share of the UK debt no matter how unfair that is.
As for fooling the public, for a nation that has just voted for Brexit and Johnson you will have sent many irony metres in orbit there 
For someone who says he is not bothered by the outcome your words and language suggest otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

as i said i would rather Scotland stay in the Union but the issues to overcome are huge and all i am trying to say is that these points need to be front and centre and any solutions need to be publicly stated regarding currency, debt, EU membership, budgit deficit etc - and the public need to see responses from UK and EU respectively to uderstand if the plans have any credibility or are pie in the sky promises. 

Te whole situation is nothing like Brexit, where we have a currency, a strong credit rating, continued ability to borrow oin international markets etc


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remind me - are there still some suggesting that if we don’t agree an EU trade deal next year that we don’t pay EU the WA bill - now £33bn I think.  Just wondering if UK would walk away from that and whether some thinks it OK were UK to do that. Or have they all shut up.  The ERG mob were certainly adamant that we should just do that. Just wondering.
		
Click to expand...

i would not advocate walking away from any debt and do not believe that would happen - although i suspect there could be fresh interpretations of some aspects of the bill


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## Dando (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do not recall any SNP politician saying that we will leave the UK without taking our share of the UK debt no matter how unfair that is.
As for fooling the public, for a nation that has just voted for Brexit and Johnson you will have sent many irony metres in orbit there 
For someone who says he is not bothered by the outcome your words and language suggest otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

why is it unfair that you pay a share of the UK’s debt if you leave?


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			tbh Chris - if they leave without sorting out the debt - and no idea how they do that - and if they manage to have a currency - and if they have a 5%+ budget defecit - they will struggle to borrow as the sums do nott add up. I am not having a go at Scotland and if they want to go i would not lose sleep although i would rather they stay - but they willhave foooled the public into doing something that is so mad on any level of analysis that Wee Jimmie and the Krankie cronies should be jailed for deception
		
Click to expand...

A spot on summary as I see it too Paul


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2019)

Dando said:



			why is it unfair that you pay a share of the UK’s debt if you leave?
		
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We had no choice in it's making.
The last time Scotland voted in favour of a Tory government was 1955.


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			So should we jail those who promoted Brexit for the same reasons?
		
Click to expand...

Except that the UK economy as a whole is much stronger than Scotland's is on it's own. Presumably if Scotland leave the Union our economy would be even stronger but, as others have said, I'd rather they stay, see how Brexit pans out and then leave if they are unhappy after, say, 5 to 10 years if they feel they could do better alone or part of a (bound) to fail EU


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2019)

Just musing on the similarity between Ireland’s trade with the U.K. and Scotland’s trade with the rUK. If the reports on how disastrous it could be for Ireland, when the U.K. leaves the EU, even the possibility of falling back into recession, how would Scotland fair?

I’ll be honest, it’s up to Scotland but just wondering, is it wise at present? In terms of infrastructure, Scotland could outsource, just as the U.K. has done with the printing of passports, but there’s a million questions to be answered.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 24, 2019)

Is this the thread where people who still can't type the full name of a powerful woman into a thread who were in favour of Brexit despite all the vague promises and pie in the sky meaningless phrases and with literally every credible economic forecast saying it would harm the economy, suddenly turn into John Maynard Keynes in an attempt to justify why it is economically unsound for a nation to leave a long established union or trading bloc?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We had no choice I'm it's making.
The last time Scotland voted in favour of a Tory government was 1955.
		
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Don’t forget their part in bringing in thatcher in 1979.


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t forget their part in bringing in thatcher in 1979.
		
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Yep, guilty of bringing in by far the best PM of the century 😊😊


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is this the thread where people who still can't type the full name of a powerful woman into a thread who were in favour of Brexit despite all the vague promises and pie in the sky meaningless phrases and with literally every credible economic forecast saying it would harm the economy suddenly turn into John Maynard Keynes in an attempt to justify why it is economically unsound for a nation to leave a long established union or trading bloc?
		
Click to expand...

you are missing the point and stirring brexit issues when the points being made are nothing to do with brexit - I am simply making the point that the questions that have no answers at present need answers before any logical person can vote on independence. Maybe there are solutions to these issues but they need the buy in of Westminster and Brussels on the big elephants in the room. And, again, to bang the same point - how does on independant Scotland, with or without a curreny, and with or without EU membership, raise around £150bn to pay the rest of the UK back?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yep, guilty of bringing in by far the worst PM of the century 😊😊
		
Click to expand...

Fixed it for you


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 24, 2019)

Guys let’s not drift into semantics 

I’m seeing some interesting points being made, which are mostly being deflected rather than any attempt to answer the points raised, 

So let’s have a grown up debate about it and leave the schoolboy stuff at home.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is this the thread where people who still can't type the full name of a powerful woman into a thread who were in favour of Brexit despite all the vague promises and pie in the sky meaningless phrases and with literally every credible economic forecast saying it would harm the economy suddenly turn into John Maynard Keynes in an attempt to justify why it is economically unsound for a nation to leave a long established union or trading bloc?
		
Click to expand...

And interestingly all the Scot nats posting on here were amongst the most ardent remainers! 🤔


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## azazel (Dec 24, 2019)

For all those who think Scotland can’t afford to be independent, what is it about Scotland that would make it so uniquely incapable of running like a normal country? And, if 300 years of union have left it in such a state, what does that say about the union?


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do not recall any SNP politician saying that we will leave the UK without taking our share of the UK debt no matter how unfair that is.
As for fooling the public, for a nation that has just voted for Brexit and Johnson you will have sent many irony metres in orbit there 
For someone who says he is not bothered by the outcome your words and language suggest otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

IMO, other than blame Westminster, you have not put up any counter arguments to the main issues of currency, debt, border control and EU acceptance. As a supporter of SNP and, I assume, Independence what are your counter/solutions?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO, other than blame Westminster, you have not put up any counter arguments to the main issues of currency, debt, border control and EU acceptance. As a supporter of SNP and, I assume, Independence what are your counter/solutions?
		
Click to expand...


Various posters have answered, just look back a few posts and you will find all the replies


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Various posters have answered, just look back a few posts and you will find all the replies
		
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if you think they are answers you are living in fairy fantasy land. Nobody is having a go at the Scots for wanting to leave, just asking logical questions that need answers nothing has been said of any credibility on any of these points - list the key points as above and state what you think are the solutions then so we can all see in one nice Scotchit manifesto plan? The key issue for a remainer in the union is how do we get our £150bn? Simples?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			if you think they are answers you are living in fairy fantasy land. Nobody is having a go at the Scots for wanting to leave, just asking logical questions that need answers nothing has been said of any credibility on any of these points - list the key points as above and state what you think are the solutions then so we can all see in one nice Scotchit manifesto plan? The key issue for a remainer in the union is how do we get our £150bn? Simples?
		
Click to expand...

Surely if they did get Independence then it would be sorted, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Various posters have answered, just look back a few posts and you will find all the replies
		
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Bit of a lazy - 'I don't care' response IMO - I've read a lot of emotion and blame but not any direct solutions.

You obviously believe strongly why not give your views/insight on the 4 main issues?


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely if they did get Independence then i*t would be sorted*, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish* to decide their future*.
		
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But that is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			Bit of a lazy - 'I don't care' response IMO - I've read a lot of emotion and blame but not any direct solutions.

You obviously believe strongly why not give your views/insight on the 4 main issues?
		
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Not lazy at all, I am just fed replying to the same two or three people asking the same questions over and over and over and over again.
Whilst, at the same time the same two or three unionist supporters totally avoid replying to any questions asked by the independence supporters on here.
Two in the last couple of hours.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			But how is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...
		
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Having no ideas or plans seems to have worked out pretty well for Johnson and Farage. 
Remember their faces when they knew they had won, after conceding defeat.


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Having no ideas or plans seems to have worked out pretty well for Johnson and Farage.
Remember their faces when they knew they had won, after conceding defeat.
		
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Deflection!
Fundamental difference...
Brexit followed a referendum vote to leave the EU from a secure financial position.
SNP wish to overturn their citizen's once in a life-time referendum after only a few years while still racking up unsustainable debts.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely if they did get Independence then it would be sorted, no different to us continually paying in to the EU until 2064.

If they are given another vote and decided to Leave, off they go.

I don’t wish to see the Union split up, but we can’t deny the promises they were given last time have not been kept.

It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.
		
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I am not saying that it shouldn't be for the Scottish people to decide their future - I am saying that there are some huge questions that need credible solutions and that the key ones rely on support/ cooperation with the UK and the EU

There is no way that Scotland can issue its own debt in any quantity so the only option, as you alude to, would be to remain a debtor to the rest of the UK as the other option of proportioning the the UK Gilt stock by, say 8.3% (scotland poulation as % of UK)  or 8.4% (Scottish economy -180bn - as % of UK ecomomy  - 2.143bn -  is not legally viable. So, probably the only solution would be that the remainder of the UK would likely have to act as a creditor to Scotland for the foreseeable future - scotland would be liable for circa 8.3% to 8.4% of interest payments (coupon) and principal values (the loan amounts when they become due) of the entire UK Government debt stock over the coming decades. Therefore, any plan along these lines needs discusion and agreement with Westminster. The negative for the UK is that we will have a smaller economy and the same notional debt - taking debt/gdp from 85% to 92.8%. I am not sure if the rating agencies or any statistical analysis of the UK position would credit us for the circa £152 billion of receivables that Scotland will owe us??


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It should be down to the Scottish to decide their future.
		
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Undoubtedly  but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			But that is the point of the debate - supporters must have ideas!

Yup: its only a Forum debate...
		
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PNWokingham said:



			I am not saying that it shouldn't be for the Scottish people to decide their future - I am saying that there are some huge questions that need credible solutions and that the key ones rely on support/ cooperation with the UK and the EU

There is no way that Scotland can issue its own debt in any quantity so the only option, as you alude to, would be to remain a debtor to the rest of the UK as the other option of proportioning the the UK Gilt stock by, say 8.3% (scotland poulation as % of UK)  or 8.4% (Scottish economy -180bn - as % of UK ecomomy  - 2.143bn -  is not legally viable. So, probably the only solution would be that the remainder of the UK would likely have to act as a creditor to Scotland for the foreseeable future - scotland would be liable for circa 8.3% to 8.4% of interest payments (coupon) and principal values (the loan amounts when they become due) of the entire UK Government debt stock over the coming decades. Therefore, any plan along these lines needs discusion and agreement with Westminster. The negative for the UK is that we will have a smaller economy and the same notional debt - taking debt/gdp from 85% to 92.8%. I am not sure if the rating agencies or any statistical analysis of the UK position would credit us for the circa £152 billion of receivables that Scotland will owe us??


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I don’t doubt any of what you say, but to expect 2 or 3 on here to have the answers is unrealistic.

We saw both in the GE and Brexit threads some well thought out balanced discussions and some nonsense, but all sides at times ignored worst case scenario’s.

The situation for Scotland could be different depending on how well Brexit goes, if it’s as good as we hope the call for Independence may lessen or even disappear, if it’s as bad some predict the Independence calls may grow.

Either way we’d only know the true economic bill they’d face when and if serious discussions take place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Undoubtedly  but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.
		
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Fair enough, but do you not accept the conditions they were told at the last vote have changed? Surely all sides hold some responsibility.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t doubt any of what you say, but to expect 2 or 3 on here to have the answers is unrealistic.

We saw both in the GE and Brexit threads some well thought out balanced discussions and some nonsense, but all sides at times ignored worst case scenario’s.

The situation for Scotland could be different depending on how well Brexit goes, if it’s as good as we hope the call for Independence may lessen or even disappear, if it’s as bad some predict the Independence calls may grow.

Either way we’d only know the true economic bill they’d face when and if serious discussions take place.
		
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the issues are huge so i am not necessarily expecting the people on here to come up with them - but i do expect that the politicians will be able to if they want a vote - because these are the most core, fundamental and key issues for an independant Scotland and to not have credible plans is just not good enough - if the SNP cannot put forward a credible way through these complex and often bilateral points then it should shut up until it can

As i also mentioned a while ago, if I were Boris, i would grant the vote for 2035 if the Scottish parliament still wanted it at the time - and that leaves a big period to work out credible plans but also to see how brexit plays out - and also to see if there is still a euro by then!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Undoubtedly  but not every few years until they get the decision that Wee Krankie requires.
		
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Guys can we please not use this term to describe the SNP Leader, 

Ta


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			the issues are huge so i am not necessarily expecting the people on here to come up with them - but i do expect that the politicians will be able to if they want a vote - because these are the most core, fundamental and key issues for an independant Scotland and to not have credible plans is just not good enough - if the SNP cannot put forward a credible way through these complex and often bilateral points then it should shut up until it can

As i also mentioned a while ago, if I were Boris, i would grant the vote for 2035 if the Scottish parliament still wanted it at the time - and that leaves a big period to work out credible plans but also to see how brexit plays out - and also to see if there is still a euro by then!
		
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Maybe it’s not coming up with its credible plan until they get the nod for a referendum, a plan today and no referendum for 10-15yrs is pointless.
Look at the stick they still get for the price of oil and their plans etc. Maybe they’ve learned to fight one battle at a time.

If or when a referendum is agreed, then absolutely they should be quizzed on every aspect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			i would not advocate walking away from any debt and do not believe that would happen - although i suspect there could be fresh interpretations of some aspects of the bill
		
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There are plenty - including all those of the ERG - who were adamant that no trade deal meant we would not pay the £33bn - now I am sure that that sounded attractive to many voters.  But hey ho. 

Anyway - any Scottish deficit could be at least partly filled by the What Holyrood charges Westminster for hosting Trident until a new base is found for it.  That would be a nice bonus for Holyrood during a transition period.  Or just host in lieu of Scotland’s share of the uk national debt.

Why not...they’re Scotland’s Lochs 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe it’s not coming up with its credible plan until they get the nod for a referendum, a plan today and no referendum for 10-15yrs is pointless.
Look at the stick they still get for the price of oil and their plans etc. Maybe they’ve learned to fight one battle at a time.

If or when a referendum is agreed, then absolutely they should be quizzed on every aspect.
		
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But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all.  I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 24, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all.  I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe
		
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Have a plan by all means, but didn’t we get stick for saying boris should tell us all the detail of his? The argument was to not let the other side have all the information in advance.

I’d probably take an educated guess and say the SNP do have a plan, but without a defined referendum timescale how much of it would change or be open to ridicule.

I’m the same in that I don’t want them to be separate, but even living in the North of England you can feel left out of decisions made in Westminister.


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## Slab (Dec 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all.  I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe
		
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A general reply but I'll tack in onto the latest post about a 'plan'...

Some of the comments are way way way ahead of themselves here and Paul has saved me a lot of typing in his recent posts as he addresses this

I mentioned several pages back that the First Ministers request immediately after the election was primarily related to act as a bargaining position for Scotland as a territory in Britain’s internal exit negotiations of the EU and not directly about an independence referendum anytime in the immediate future. 
In fact providing she continues to time it correctly it simply means every time the FM asks for an indyref and Westminster’s (can be forced) to decline it, it actually strengthens Nicola Sturgeons position & the SNP’s... So why wouldn't she ask?

She actually doesn’t have to get agreement from Boris or any other UKGov minister for the exchange to be positive for her, its win/win as long as Westminster can be forced to respond (it could even be argued that Westminster agreeing at this point in time is the last thing the Scottish First Minister actually wants but since it’s also the last thing the UK gov wants then they will always lose out in the exchange) Ideally Westminster being able to ignore the request is best for the current UK Gov but they couldn't do that given that the timing of the latest request made it too high profile

The leader of the SNP is playing her hand the best way possible just now and picking up political gain at a time when the UK Gov has bigger fish to fry 

I’m surprised folks can’t see this and are taking way way too much at face value and requesting entire exit plans, strategy’s & manifestos (from folks on a golf forum) for everything from currency to border controls, calm yourselves we’re nowhere near that point in time (in fact we're probably years away at the earliest)


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 28, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But surely one lesson we can learn from Brexit is not to go into a referendum without a detailed plan if you get the result the SNP want.

These are questions that could determine whether another indie ref is even contemplated.

I like Scotland a lot, but if it left, I don’t think it would affect me much, if at all.  I’m just concerned about Scotland’s ability to survive economically as an individual state within Europe
		
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Ireland and Denmark are countries similar in size without Scotland's natural energy benefits.
They appear to be doing better than the UK at the mo.
Why do you think Scotland cannot cope outwith the UK


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 28, 2019)

Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax 

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic
		
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I pretty much agree. The EU has only kept growth artificially positive by very high levels of QE from the ECB: it must start living within its means. With Germany now struggling and other EU members experiencing low or no growth it would be unwise for Scotland to put much reliance on the EU's financial aid. Ireland was lucky as at the time of their referendum the EU was splashing the cash in its direction - its a very different economic scenario to today's world economy being twisted by China needing to grow to sustain its population. If I was the SNP I'd be trying to consolidate Scotland's economy and bide their time to see if the PM can get growth which might also help Scotland sell more stuff.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 28, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well Denmark is a very highly taxed society, so if you want to be like Denmark, then you will have to pay for it.

No doubt that Ireland is doing well, and no doubt that a lot of that is down to European assistance and it’s low corporation tax 

However now that the EU are losing one of their few net contributors, there isn’t going to be as much money around.
last thing they would want is another country with its hand out.

Denmark and Ireland have well established economies, Scotland will be starting from scratch.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I think simply comparing Scotland to other countries of similar size/ population is a bit simplistic
		
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You mean like saying that the UK can be like Singapore...😣


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You mean like saying that the UK can be like Singapore...😣
		
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That’s not what I said, and you know it, now stop deflecting, because if you are deflecting it means that you haven’t got any ammo left and are losing the debate, let’s have some ideas or suggestions as to why I’m wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 28, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			That’s not what I said, and you know it, now stop deflecting, because if you are deflecting it means that you haven’t got any ammo left and are losing the debate, let’s have some ideas or suggestions as to why I’m wrong.
		
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I am not actually debating anything so can't be out of ammo or losing any such debate.  I am simply saying that if it is too simplistic to compare Scotland with Denmark - then it is surely also too simplistic to compare UK with Singapore - but that comparison is a favourite of the ERGers - as the UK becomes the 'Freeport Central' of Europe.

Strikes me that there are massive double standards going on in the 'Can Scotland Survive being Independent' debate, when pretty much the similar criticisms, issues and concerns raised about UK leaving the EU were waved aside by Leavers during the Brexit Debate (and continue to be waved aside) as Project fear - nobody can predict the future.  Yes there are differences - currency perhaps being the main one - but the rest are pretty similar.

I've pretty much kept out of this debate here as the ability of forummers to predict Scotland's future as an indy country as being dire is frankly staggering - and I have no answer to their foresight abilities and certainly - and so I can't be bothered.


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## toyboy54 (Dec 28, 2019)

drdel well thought out comments with a lot of factual info.
Was given some truly 'what the ..ck are these charlatans in govt.are doing to drag us further down in the 'easy touch/walk all over them-its only the UK-nothing to worry about-scenario which has happened in the Middle East at our annual booze-up last night!
Can thank the lord that I'm practising hard to finish my 18holes and spend the rest of my time in the great clubhouse with this shower doing their best to ruin this countrys' manufacturing base
Rant over.But the info-from a v.g. source was truly jaw-dropping...will tell you soon(after I've learned to use the Sony Walkman NW-A45 that Mrs.Santa brought me)
Jimbo


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2019)

A couple of quick questions;

Why will Scotland be starting from scratch? It has a local govt structure, which collects and spends local taxes. It has its own income tax structure - thoroughly enjoyed that! It has devolved powers for education, NHS and Police.

Why can't the UK be the Freeport of Europe? Why is it a problem to change the tax structure, (as Ireland did in a big way)?


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not actually debating anything so can't be out of ammo or losing any such debate.  I am simply saying that if it is too simplistic to compare Scotland with Denmark - then it is surely also too simplistic to compare UK with Singapore - but that comparison is a favourite of the ERGers - as the UK becomes the 'Freeport Central' of Europe.

Strikes me that there are *massive double standards going (1) *on in the 'Can Scotland Survive being Independent' debate, when pretty much the similar criticisms, issues and concerns raised about UK leaving the EU were waved aside by Leavers during the Brexit Debate (and continue to be waved aside) as Project fear - *nobody can predict the future (2).*  Yes there are differences - currency perhaps being the main one - but the rest are pretty similar.

I've pretty much kept out of this debate here as the *ability of forummers *to predict Scotland's future as an indy country *as being dire is frankly staggering (3)* - and I have no answer to their foresight abilities and certainly - and *so I can't be bothered (4)*.
		
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1. Completely and utterly different scenarios - 5m Scots with GDP £180bn to join EU £15trill with Scotland'sneed for subsidies and EU finances shaky. UK is one of the world's top 10 largest economies at £2.2 trillion c.f. Singapore and Denmark both about £320m
2. But there are some robust economics variables with trends that can give a pretty good indications within sensible margins or error.
3. Belonging to a Golf Forum and having both an opinion AND some economic savvy are not mutually exclusive but feel free to insult your fellow members. 
4. So it seems somewhat irrational to have bothered posting.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A couple of quick questions;

Why will Scotland be starting from scratch? It has a local govt structure, which collects and spends local taxes. It has its own income tax structure - thoroughly enjoyed that! It has devolved powers for education, NHS and Police.

Why can't the UK be the Freeport of Europe? Why is it a problem to change the tax structure, (as Ireland did in a big way)?
		
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This also begs the question, why is Scotland so 'poor' [compared to the UK as a whole] within a structure that is controlled by the UK Chancellor.
In a breakdown of UK 'regions' Scotland wealth is behind London and SE England, compares with East England and ahead of all the other UK regions.
Puzzling.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			1. Completely and utterly different scenarios - 5m Scots with GDP £180bn to join EU £15trill with Scotland'sneed for subsidies and EU finances shaky. UK is one of the world's top 10 largest economies at £2.2 trillion c.f. Singapore and Denmark both about £320m
2. But there are some robust economics variables with trends that can give a pretty good indications within sensible margins or error.
3. Belonging to a Golf Forum and having both an opinion AND some economic savvy are not mutually exclusive but feel free to insult your fellow members. 
4. So it seems somewhat irrational to have bothered posting.
		
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What of what I posted is insulting to others.  I simply stated that I perceived double standards being applied to Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU. And from what I have read I am not alone in thinking that.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What of what I posted is insulting to others.  I simply stated that I perceived double standards being applied to Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU. And from what I have read I am not alone in thinking that.
		
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Are you a Remain voter, against Independence, for the very same reasons you often put forward opposing Brexit?


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## drdel (Dec 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This also begs the question, why is Scotland so 'poor' [compared to the UK as a whole] within a structure that is controlled by the UK Chancellor.
In a breakdown of UK 'regions' Scotland wealth is behind London and SE England, compares with East England and ahead of all the other UK regions.
Puzzling.
		
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Population density, business  density and distances to market might figure...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are you a Remain voter, against Independence, for the very same reasons you often put forward opposing Brexit?
		
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That we are better in the EU than out?  As I don’t live in Scotland and haven’t done so for 35yrs I don’t know as far as Scotland is concerned.  If I did then I might have a better idea - and I’d have a vote.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That we are better in the EU than out?  As I don’t live in Scotland and haven’t done so for 35yrs I don’t know as far as Scotland is concerned.  If I did then I might have a better idea - and I’d have a vote.
		
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I might be inclined to think you're avoiding the question, or maybe not... you're too intelligent not to recognise the similarities with who Scotland's biggest trading partner is and who the UK's biggest trading partner is. You've argued long and hard about the damage losing unrestricted access to trade is. Does that argument not apply in this case?

I'm not arguing for or against. I feel its for Scotland to choose its own destiny.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Population density, business  density and distances to market might figure...
		
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Which then begs the question
Why is UK population and business density so strong in SE England.


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## Wolf (Dec 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which then begs the question
Why is UK population and business density so strong in SE England.
		
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It really doesn't beg that question at all.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			It really doesn't beg that question at all.
		
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Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.


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## Wolf (Dec 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.
		
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I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.
		
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Isn't it a chicken and egg thing with the SE? People move to where the jobs are, where the wealth is, and trickle down economics sees those people spending their money in that area. As the population density increases so does the govt spending in that area on infrastructure. And companies seeing improvements in infrastructure and a large workforce look to move there.

And what real investment and investment has there been in areas that actually needed it the most?

A survey the EU did on regional spending gives a feel for why northerners and Scots feel let down by successive govts. Scotland is right to feel aggrieved and, potentially, has a way out from under the rule of successive govts that can't see beyond the M25.


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## Wolf (Dec 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't it a chicken and egg thing with the SE? People move to where the jobs are, where the wealth is, and trickle down economics sees those people spending their money in that area. As the population density increases so does the govt spending in that area on infrastructure. And companies seeing improvements in infrastructure and a large workforce look to move there.

And what real investment and investment has there been in areas that actually needed it the most?

A survey the EU did on regional spending gives a feel for why northerners and Scots feel let down by successive govts. Scotland is right to feel aggrieved and, potentially, has a way out from under the rule of successive govts that can't see beyond the M25.
		
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I don't disagree with you on those points but I stand by my comment of thise are different issues to what Doon was referencing.

I think government does need to spend beyond the M25, im also pro the Scots deciding their own fate.


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## toyboy54 (Dec 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't disagree with you on those points but I stand by my comment of thise are different issues to what Doon was referencing.

I think government does need to spend beyond the M25, im also pro the Scots deciding their own fate.
		
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Sorry about my going off on one last night but I had learned at our night out just how much our beloved leaders actually care for not only manufacturing(and assoc.supply chain )jobs in our 'For Sale-at any price ' country.But also what a sham Trade Delegations going abroad to allegedly drum up inward investment and possible joint ventures for alternative engineering  ECO Products  actually are!!!!
So much for unlocking the potential to be a world leader again in science,engineering and the environment.
Big article in the press today about hiving/selling off oncology and other services to PRIVATE COS.(some talks are at advanced stage).Is this another promise  shelved??
No wonder folk don't trust politicians(the lot up here are no better either)!

Jimbo


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't think its a similar question at all. The reason the population is so dense and wealthier in SE and London is quit obvious for all to see especially having lived and grown up there.

The question of whether that wealth should be more evenly spread across the UK andnehy northern areas were so keen to leave the EU are different questions imo.
		
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It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.
		
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Please explain why any Government would currently agree infrastructure spending in Dundee when in a few months time they might leave the Union?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I might be inclined to think you're avoiding the question, or maybe not... you're too intelligent not to recognise the similarities with who Scotland's biggest trading partner is and who the UK's biggest trading partner is. You've argued long and hard about the damage losing unrestricted access to trade is. Does that argument not apply in this case?

I'm not arguing for or against. I feel its for Scotland to choose its own destiny.
		
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And as I don’t live in Scotland and have not done so for decades then I have no feel for how things are and have been - and so I don’t feel particularly qualified to comment on how much better they could be or not.  

The only indicators of whether independence is felt to be realistic or not is what I hear from my very pro-Indy brother - a senior oil industry professional, and a successful professional friend originally from Barrhead and after nearly 40yrs out of Scotland recently moved to Haddington - a Tory and previously anti-Indy - but when we spoke last year said he now was much more inclined towards the idea but still had to be convinced on the numbers.

The one thing I feel certain about is that the Scottish electorate should be given the choice sooner rather than later.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Please explain why any Government would currently agree infrastructure spending in Dundee when in a few months time they might leave the Union?
		
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That is the problem the UK government does not fund Scottish projects like Borders railway, A9 dualing, Queensferry Crossing  etc 
They are funded by the proportion of our own money that Westminster deems to send up.
BTW you did not answer my question.


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## KenL (Dec 30, 2019)

People in Scotland were given the vote 5 years ago and there was a very clear outcome to remain.

For me, people up here don't know how lucky they are!  Look at the advantages over rUK, free prescriptions, eyetests, dental check ups, free bus travel anywhere in the country for everybody who is 60), free university education, power to raise taxes for average earners etc.

How anyone thinks things would be better as an independent country is beyond me.

The only thing about living in Scotland I don't like is having to living with the stress of the constant banging on by the SNP about independence!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Actually, it does beg the question. And its a very searching question too. I'd also hazard a guess that there's similarities with why the NE of England voted so heavily in favour of Brexit.

London and the SE of England is the richest region in Europe, not just the UK. It outstrips the various wealthy areas of both Germany and France.

Imagine if that wealth had been evenly distributed around the UK. Would Brexit have happened? Would independence be an issue?

Sounds pretty simialr to me, and definitely a question worth asking.
		
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I was yesterday reading an article about Bolsover - now a Tory seat, as it is next to Chesterfield where my wife is from; how the main (pretty much only) industrial investment in the area since the coal industry collapsed was a Sports Direct distribution centre; and how without the coal board pension scheme the economy of the area would completely collapse.  And speaking with my wife about that we reflected on the difference between Bolsover/chesterfield and Farnham/Guildford areas.  And the differences are massive - so great that if you did not k ow both areas you might not believe the differences.

Indeed yesterday my daughter talked about a friend she made at uni.  He was from Clay Cross and seemed to be the first from his secondary school and all families he knows to have gone to university - well that’s what he told my daughter and why would he not be telling the truth. He is now a fully qualified accountant and working in Thailand teaching.  His Facebook page is full of posts from his Clay Cross friends young and old telling him how proud they all are of what he’s achieved coming from CC - going to uni and now being a trained accountant and teaching.  Safe to say my daughter was not the first from her very high achieving surrey state secondary school to have gone to uni.

You might not believe such disparity in opportunity, expectation and ambition could exist between towns less that 200miles apart but it absolutely does.


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## Wolf (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.
		
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Quite simple to understand why its obvious considering its the hub of UK business, banking and has the largest transport links for businesses to the continent via sea, rail and air.

As for Scottish people paying for it, welcome to paying taxes and government choosing how spend that money. Whilst I agree more should go elsewhere in the country, I still like anyone from any union state have to pay it like you do, doesn't mean we have to like it.

As for your point on HS2 & Cross rail thats purely semantics, anyone (I include scottish citizens in that) could equally ask why should pay to improve the A38, Highland railway or the many other current transport improvements in various Scottish regions. That they equally won't use, just like improving roads and rail links in other areas of England has no impact on me. HS2 imo is a waste of money but im sure there will be many that use it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that.  The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.


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## Wolf (Dec 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that.  The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.
		
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I've read this post 3 times and still see its only relevance as adding another number to your post count..

I pretty sure nobody is looking back to that event and seeing any relevance of it towards the thread title or current discussions being had within it. Plus the fact a move like that in the 70s would have been pointless due to communication infrastructure of the time.


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## drdel (Dec 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we think back to 1977 following an upsurge in support for the SNP and the demolition of St Enoch station and hotel to make way for new offices for the MoD - but the planned 6000 jobs moved from London didn’t happen because the MoD peeps didn’t want to move to Glasgow. And other than 1400 largely admin jobs moving that was that.  The high value jobs didn’t move to Scotland because the people didn’t want to move.
		
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Had that decision been made today you'd be on here asking why the MoD's annual transport cost etc. for staff etc were so high!

Demographics evolve as people use their freedom to move to places where the want to live and work: its not surprising that transport infrastructure follows demand.


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW you did not answer my question.

Click to expand...

Can't be arsed to 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I've read this post 3 times and still see its only relevance as adding another number to your post count..

I pretty sure nobody is looking back to that event and seeing any relevance of it towards the thread title or current discussions being had within it. Plus the fact a move like that in the 70s would have been pointless due to communication infrastructure of the time.
		
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The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action.  If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support.  Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that  the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Quite simple to understand why its obvious considering its the hub of UK business, banking and has the largest transport links for businesses to the continent via sea, rail and air.

As for Scottish people paying for it, welcome to paying taxes and government choosing how spend that money. Whilst I agree more should go elsewhere in the country, I still like anyone from any union state have to pay it like you do, doesn't mean we have to like it.

As for your point on HS2 & Cross rail thats purely semantics, anyone (I include scottish citizens in that) could equally ask why should pay to improve the A38, Highland railway or the many other current transport improvements in various Scottish regions. That they equally won't use, just like improving roads and rail links in other areas of England has no impact on me. HS2 imo is a waste of money but im sure there will be many that use it.
		
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I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence


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## Dando (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence 

Click to expand...

so all the new office blocks have been funded by Oil money?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Had that decision been made today you'd be on here asking why the MoD's annual transport cost etc. for staff etc were so high!
		
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Not if the jobs were in Scotland and the employees lived in Scotland?  I think when Thatcher's government had the MoD move planned that they had taken into account any associated travel costs.  Besides - 1977 the oil was beginning to flow so the Westminster government knew it would have loads of new cash to splash for decades to come.


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action.  If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support.  Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that  the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.
		
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If you were Boris and you had a choice where to commit and support to away from the SE, would you go northern England where you have just picked up only dreamt of seats, or to Scotland where the ruling party are going to cry "leave"  at every opportunity  ?


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## Wolf (Dec 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The observation is in respect of the discussion about the concentration of a lot of high value jobs being in the south east of England; that there can be intent and good words about moving high value jobs out of the south east - but good intent means nothing without action.  If the business or the people do not want to move then little will happen without total government commitment and support.  Let's see if Johnson and his crew have that - because if they do not want to lose Scotland from the Union then I suggest that  the government has to demonstrate significant and sustained commitment to Scotland.
		
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Except its not relevant at all in current context, your talking about a time where people would have to move somewhere hundreds of miles away from families with communication links that were a hard wired phone line only and transport wasn't what it is now. Nowadays MOD can function anywhere at all thanks to technological advances, people  have more access to communicate with their  family across the world let alone the country and have far easier ways of getting back to that family. Im sorry SiLH buts its simply not comparible now with 1977.

Plus look at it now for context of your argument why would Boris or any  political leader look to move MOD services to Scotland when the SNP are continuing to fight for independence, it would  be an unbelievable waste of tax payers money because they'd have to relocate again back to England as Scotland would have to create their own defence ministry. Then you'd be the first to complain about the additional spend of the relocation back down south of the border.

Its all well and good saying Westminster must do more for Scotland, but all the while Independence is being batted about why would any government risk spending more North of the border when they could lose all that which could be spent more effectively  in Northern England. Its a bit like asking the EU to give us more money to spend on our economy even though we're leaving and there'd be no return of investment. Its simply not logical until the indyref2 argument is settled.


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## Wolf (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am asking how it became the hub.
What decisions were made to make it so.

Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence 

Click to expand...

You'd have to go back a century or 2 to answer that question, as for London Skyline, suggesting that's because of Scottish oil alone is simply an unbelievable bias and short sighted view that shows as many of your posts do you simply cannot comprehend beyond your own views things that are factual and true.


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## Captainron (Dec 30, 2019)

Let’s be honest. The chances of Scotland gaining independence in a few years and then joining the EU later on are pretty much zero. 

Independence would cause a rake load of trouble in the EU as the Basques would want the same and that is a definite no-no. 

All of this threatens the EU and if they let Scotland in after a splinter then it opens the doors for others which would weaken their current member nations.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have a look at the London Skyline before they found oil in Scotland's waters and now, Purely coincidence 

Click to expand...

Doon, now you are in the realm of sheer fantasy.

The Shard was financed from Qatar, The Gherkin from Brazil, it’s all private finance apart from the MI5 building.

You aren’t doing yourself or your cause any favours with these outlandish comments


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## Captainron (Dec 30, 2019)

Problem for a lot of the northern places is that they were built on outdated requirements (coal, wool etc) where London was always a commerce hub. 

So when the large areas of the north became “redundant” they were up the creek because their entire existence was built around skills which were not needed.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Problem for a lot of the northern places is that they were built on outdated requirements (coal, wool etc) where London was always a commerce hub.

So when the large areas of the north became “redundant” they were up the creek because their entire existence was built around skills which were not needed.
		
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And govt investment and incentives? Is the U.K. the only Northern European country to experience this? Why don’t other Northern European countries exhibit the massive centralisation the U.K. does?

If Westminster wants to nullify the SNP and the Tories want to retain the northern seats they’ve just won, something’s got to change.


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## Captainron (Dec 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And govt investment and incentives? Is the U.K. the only Northern European country to experience this? Why don’t other Northern European countries exhibit the massive centralisation the U.K. does?

If Westminster wants to nullify the SNP and the Tories want to retain the northern seats they’ve just won, something’s got to change.
		
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That’s how it was Bri. Not saying it’s definitely going to stay that way but I don’t see huge changes. Just an observation about why the north is they way it is. 

The likelihood of massive infrastructure boosts to places which are not within commuteable distance to a larger town/city are probably unlikely as the gain is not commensurate with the outlay. So people living in small rural towns probably won’t feel any real benefit.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 30, 2019)

Captainron said:



			That’s how it was Bri. Not saying it’s definitely going to stay that way but I don’t see huge changes. Just an observation about why the north is they way it is.

The likelihood of massive infrastructure boosts to places which are not within commuteable distance to a larger town/city are probably unlikely as the gain is not commensurate with the outlay. So people living in small rural towns probably won’t feel any real benefit.
		
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London was built on the Docks along with many other ports around the Country, look how that area has been regenerated, ie Canary Wharf amongst others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And govt investment and incentives? Is the U.K. the only Northern European country to experience this? Why don’t other Northern European countries exhibit the massive centralisation the U.K. does?

If Westminster wants to nullify the SNP and the Tories want to retain the northern seats they’ve just won, something’s got to change.
		
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Exactly right - this whole idea being pushed by some here that there is no point Westminster investing in Scottish infrastructure or in moving business/government depts to Scotland in case Scotland becomes independent is as sure a pointer as anyone can give to Scots that Westminster *expects *Scotland to become independent.

If Westminster government actually cares about the Union then it has to be very positive about investment in Scotland and in decentralisation.

Scotland apart, there is the same expectation now sitting with millions of northern Tory voters - they expect as they were promised significant change by Johnson and Crew.


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## drdel (Dec 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And govt investment and incentives? Is the U.K. the only Northern European country to experience this? Why don’t other Northern European countries exhibit the massive centralisation the U.K. does?

If Westminster wants to nullify the SNP and the Tories want to retain the northern seats they’ve just won, something’s got to change.
		
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If Scotland and the SNP would stop banging on about independence and work with the UK to make it a stable place for investment then change may slowly be gained.  At the moment they are shooting themselves in the foot with their rhetoric. Northern Europe does have historic centralisation commonly near transport, raw material hubs e.g. Rotterdam, Schipol, etc.

I've worked for many international companies (including at least 3 big Scottish organisations) looking at establishing themselves and refining their supply chains: these are long term investments. The standard assessment begins with the market network and demographics balanced against the sources of supply and the magnitude of bulk movement against the network for distribution. One has to recognise where the major ports, airports and populations are. If you locate in Scotland you'll also need infrastructure 'south' to receive bulk shipments. However if you look at the UK's centre of gravity for most logistical systems you either end up south of Birmingham or south of London depending on the exact flows of that sector. Take a look at where industrial 'parks' are being built by developers.

Unfortunately adding to the political is a small domestics market of 5m people, poor transport links and some difficult terrain international companies locating in Scotland incur additional supply chain costs that are not countered by lower property/operating costs - the sums just do not add up. The same issues are relevant to a degree in Cornwall, Devon, west Wales, Cumbria, and the NE. It is no accident that the Government is looking at 'Freeports' to stimulate international trade - the word *PORT* is the best indicator - air or sea.


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## drdel (Dec 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exactly right - this whole idea being pushed by some here that there is no point Westminster investing in Scottish infrastructure or in moving business/government depts to Scotland in case Scotland becomes independent is as sure a pointer as anyone can give to Scots that Westminster *expects *Scotland to become independent.

If Westminster government actually cares about the Union then it has to be very positive about investment in Scotland and in decentralisation.

Scotland apart, there is the same expectation now sitting with millions of northern Tory voters - they expect as they were promised significant change by Johnson and Crew.
		
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Governments do not run businesses; they can 'try' and improve conditions but economic realities and demographics will always prevail which is the why the EU's CAP consumes such a huge part of the EU budget.


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## azazel (Dec 30, 2019)

So as a brief summary of what a couple of posters appear to be saying, there’s no way the government is going to invest in Scotland and there’s no way for Scotland to do anything about it as, even if the will was there to spend some government money on business development, it wouldn’t be worthwhile anyway?
Should we all just pack up and move to London then?
I’m certainly not finding much in these “economic” arguments to suggest there’s any point in Scotland staying in the UK, that’s for sure.


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## Slab (Dec 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If you were Boris and you had a choice where to commit and support to away from the SE, would you go northern England where you have just picked up only dreamt of seats, or to Scotland where the ruling party are going to cry "leave"  at every opportunity  ?
		
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He would choose NE every time even if Scotland said nothing about indy, in fact even more so (and I suspect you know that too) so.... Scotland MUST develop a bargaining position of whatever strength it can

Make no mistake, when it comes to fighting for the scraps the SE doesn't want it is not and never has been a fair fight, brexit will not change that


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## drdel (Dec 30, 2019)

azazel said:



			So as a brief summary of what a couple of posters appear to be saying, there’s no way the government is going to invest in Scotland and there’s no way for Scotland to do anything about it as, even if the will was there to spend some government money on business development, it wouldn’t be worthwhile anyway?
Should we all just pack up and move to London then?
I’m certainly not finding much in these “economic” arguments to suggest there’s any point in Scotland staying in the UK, that’s for sure.
		
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Geography and demographics are realities, but the ongoing political uncertainty is simply unhelpful.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Doon, now you are in the realm of sheer fantasy.

The Shard was financed from Qatar, The Gherkin from Brazil, it’s all private finance apart from the MI5 building.

You aren’t doing yourself or your cause any favours with these outlandish comments
		
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I think that skyline includes more than two buildings.


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## Dando (Dec 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that skyline includes more than two buildings.
		
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so what buildings were down to Scotlands oil money?


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2019)

Dando said:



			so what buildings were down to Scotlands oil money?
		
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Shouldn't that be the UK oil money?


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## Dando (Dec 30, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Shouldn't that be the UK oil money?
		
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The only decent thing bliar did was move the boundary lines


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## Jacko_G (Dec 30, 2019)

Get JOCXIT done.

Scots hate Westminster not the English. I'll happily pay extra taxes for my future generations.

That said it's going to cost Westminster more to build the infrastructure to house trident in their own waters.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Geography and demographics are realities, but the ongoing political uncertainty is simply unhelpful.
		
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Put some of that snake oil on your heid.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Get JOCXIT done.

Scots hate Westminster not the English. I'll happily pay extra taxes for my future generations.

That said it's going to cost Westminster more to build the infrastructure to house trident in their own waters.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....yed-at-the-faslane-nuclear-base-1-4361349/amp

Just got to find jobs for the thousands employed in and around Faslane because Trident is there.


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## chrisd (Dec 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....yed-at-the-faslane-nuclear-base-1-4361349/amp

Just got to find jobs for the thousands employed in and around Faslane because Trident is there.
		
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About 11,000 directly and indirectly from 2020 I believe


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## KenL (Dec 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Get JOCXIT done.

Scots hate Westminster not the English. I'll happily pay extra taxes for my future generations.

That said it's going to cost Westminster more to build the infrastructure to house trident in their own waters.
		
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Some Scots maybe.  I certainly do not hate Westminster.

Some Scots do hate England, stupid small-minded Scots!


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## williamalex1 (Dec 30, 2019)

Surely anyone with the slightest  bit of patriotism in their blood would prefer to be governed from within their own borders / country by their peers, if remotely possible ???.
Sadly I don't think that's possible for the foreseeable future , but just maybe/ hopefully stand on our own one day.
  ATM we have Westminster , Brussels and fekin Holyrood ruling us .
BTW I quite like you Sassenachs especially the lassies 
Can you imagine England being governed by a Scottish or N.I  majority government based in Holyrood  or Stormont, how would you guys and Gals like it .


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Surely anyone with the slightest  bit of patriotism in their blood would prefer to be governed from within their own borders / country by their peers, if remotely possible ???.
Sadly I don't think that's possible for the foreseeable future , but just maybe/ hopefully stand on our own one day.
  ATM we have Westminster , Brussels and fekin Holyrood ruling us .
BTW I quite like you Sassenachs especially the lassies 
Can you imagine England being governed by a Scottish or N.I  majority government based in Holyrood  or Stormont, how would you guys and Gals like it .
		
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To be fair we wouldn't like it and I quite accept that self governance is best but Scotland has to know that it can live on it's own income if it's going to be independent. Also your own Government gives you quite a number of freebies that we dont enjoy whilst running a huge deficit and that's not going to work in the medium to long term. 

This forum just gets too wound up by a couple of posters who delight stirring the poo over what Westminster doesnt do for Scotland but, I believe that leaving will bring more misery in the long term, especially if Scotand pin their hope's on a collapsing EU - best wait and see if leaving the EU in our Union worksfor Scotland and then make a decision


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			To be fair we wouldn't like it and I quite accept that self governance is best but Scotland has to know that it can live on it's own income if it's going to be independent. Also your own Government gives you quite a number of freebies that we dont enjoy whilst running a huge deficit and that's not going to work in the medium to long term.

This forum just gets too wound up by a couple of posters who delight stirring the poo over what Westminster doesnt do for Scotland but, I believe that leaving will bring more misery in the long term, especially if Scotand pin their hope's on a collapsing EU - best wait and see if leaving the EU in our Union worksfor Scotland and then make a decision
		
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Chris, when will you learn that talking sense has no place on some threads!


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			Chris, when will you learn that talking sense has no place on some threads!
		
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Yea, sorry Dando didn't mean to


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Yea, sorry Dando didn't mean to
		
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don't do it again or I'll have to report you to Fragger


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			don't do it again or I'll have to report you to Fragger
		
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Read that and just wee'd myself 😣 (not cos of Fragger though, at my age I do it regularly)


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 31, 2019)

azazel said:



			So as a brief summary of what a couple of posters appear to be saying, there’s no way the government is going to invest in Scotland and there’s no way for Scotland to do anything about it as, even if the will was there to spend some government money on business development, it wouldn’t be worthwhile anyway?
Should we all just pack up and move to London then?
I’m certainly not finding much in these “economic” arguments to suggest there’s any point in Scotland staying in the UK, that’s for sure.
		
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The Westminster Government had a real chance to show Scotland what it meant in the words of the 2014 Vow to the nation.
Instead they ignored every promise and then declared what is basically an English parliament within Westminster.
We now know where we stand and another 10 years of right wing Tory broken promises to Scotland is not on our agenda


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Westminster Government had a real chance to show Scotland what it meant in the words of the 2014 Vow to the nation.
Instead they ignored every promise and then declared what is basically an English parliament within Westminster.
We now know where we stand and another 10 years of right wing Tory broken promises to Scotland is not on our agenda
		
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are you still working on that list of buildings that used "Scottish" oil money


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 31, 2019)

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...dindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=0,1,2,3,4,6,8,10

United Celtic States.
The next big thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			are you still working on that list of buildings that used "Scottish" oil money
		
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If you had read my post I asked if it was a coincidence that the huge London development programme started in the mid 1970's was related to the discovery of Scottish oil.
I  think it was, do you.


BTW what was that to do with the post you did not replied to.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....yed-at-the-faslane-nuclear-base-1-4361349/amp

Just got to find jobs for the thousands employed in and around Faslane because Trident is there.
		
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Do jobs not transfer?

MOD jobs, etc they not transferrable. Will cost billions to move and store trident.

Get JocXit done.


chrisd said:



			To be fair we wouldn't like it and I quite accept that self governance is best but Scotland has to know that it can live on it's own income if it's going to be independent. Also your own Government gives you quite a number of freebies that we dont enjoy whilst running a huge deficit and that's not going to work in the medium to long term.

This forum just gets too wound up by a couple of posters who delight stirring the poo over what Westminster doesnt do for Scotland but, I believe that leaving will bring more misery in the long term, especially if Scotand pin their hope's on a collapsing EU - best wait and see if leaving the EU in our Union worksfor Scotland and then make a decision
		
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Couldn't care less what you or others think. Governing our own country is the only way forward and it will happen. Possibly not in my lifetime sadly but Scotland needs away from England.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 31, 2019)

I'm not understanding this thread.  I thought it was about vasectomy.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you had read my post I asked if it was a coincidence that the huge London development programme started in the mid 1970's was related to the discovery of *Scottish oil.*
I  think it was, do you.


BTW what was that to do with the post you did not replied to.

Click to expand...

No such thing, it is British oil. Explored and extracted with British and American money. You profited from it plenty with increased industry in relation to it and you profited exponentially Via a wealthier U.K. through the Barnet formula. 

if your heed wasn’t so full of Nationalist nonsense you would see as a country Scotland is doing pretty well. After all it was you saying you need cheap foreign workers to do the excessive graft for you during the Brexit debate wasn’t it? I bet most of the EU countries that you so desire to be part of would love to be in your position.


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Do jobs not transfer?

MOD jobs, etc they not transferrable. Will cost billions to move and store trident.

Get JocXit done.


Couldn't *care* less what you or others think. Governing our own country is the only way forward and it will happen. Possibly not in my lifetime sadly but Scotland needs away from England.
		
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If that is your honest belief and if it is the majority opinion why would you expect 'us' to care and bother to invest or Westminster to develop favourable policies?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 31, 2019)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm not understanding this thread.  I thought it was about vasectomy.
		
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I'm amazed the title has never been changed. It is about the SNP,  Scottish National Party, who want independence from the rest of the UK. 

Apologies if your post was a gag, I know you are in America and new to the forum so I don't know if you are aware of all this.


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2019)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm not understanding this thread.  I thought it was about vasectomy.
		
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Having the snip is less painful than reading some of the tripe written on here


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## azazel (Dec 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			if your heed wasn’t so full of Nationalist nonsense you would see as a country Scotland is doing pretty well. After all it was you saying you need cheap foreign workers to do the excessive graft for you during the Brexit debate wasn’t it? I bet most of the EU countries that you so desire to be part of would love to be in your position.
		
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You’ve inadvertently nailed one of the key points of Scottish independence: if people think we’re doing ok or well as things stand, then because England wants to leave the EU we’ve got to go too whether we like it or not, risking the current “success”. That’s a fundamental change from the position of 2014 and as such, given there’s a majority for it in the Scottish parliament, a second referendum on independence is perfectly legitimate and, indeed, necessary.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 31, 2019)

If Scotland wants independence, can New England take its place in the UK?

Like Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and the USSR, the US is ripe for partition.
Our right wing nut jobs and progressive liberals are no longer mere political opponents.
They're now ideological enemies and genuinely hate one another.
And they're always in a 49.5 - 50.5 balance, one way or another.
Family members have become estranged.
Your problems are no worse than ours and likely not as bad.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Couldn't care less what you or others think. Governing our own country is the only way forward and it will happen. Possibly not in my lifetime sadly but Scotland needs away from England.
		
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Believe me, we care much less than you do, and if we were given a vote in that referendum i reckon you'd be gone by the next day!


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			If that is your honest belief and if it is the majority opinion why would you expect 'us' to care and bother to invest or Westminster to develop favourable policies?
		
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Correct - you don't.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No such thing, it is British oil. Explored and extracted with British and American money. You profited from it plenty with increased industry in relation to it and you profited exponentially Via a wealthier U.K. through the Barnet formula. 

if your heed wasn’t so full of Nationalist nonsense you would see as a country Scotland is doing pretty well. After all it was you saying you need cheap foreign workers to do the excessive graft for you during the Brexit debate wasn’t it? I bet most of the EU countries that you so desire to be part of would love to be in your position.
		
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Lets face it, those mars bars arnt going to fry themselves.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No such thing, it is British oil. Explored and extracted with British and American money. You profited from it plenty with increased industry in relation to it and you profited exponentially Via a wealthier U.K. through the Barnet formula.

if your heed wasn’t so full of Nationalist nonsense you would see as a country Scotland is doing pretty well. After all it was you saying you need cheap foreign workers to do the excessive graft for you during the Brexit debate wasn’t it? I bet most of the EU countries that you so desire to be part of would love to be in your position.
		
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Aye  just imagine how better Scotland would be by being constantly propped up by an even richer rUK.  
PS Nobody mentioned cheap labour.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 31, 2019)

I see that English, Scottish, and Northern Irish flags are represented in the Union Jack, but nothing resembling the Welsh flag.
Is Wales seeking independence as well?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



*Do jobs not transfer?*

MOD jobs, etc they not transferrable. Will cost billions to move and store trident.

Get JocXit done.


Couldn't care less what you or others think. Governing our own country is the only way forward and it will happen. Possibly not in my lifetime sadly but Scotland needs away from England.
		
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The ones employed by the MOD “if” there is somewhere for Trident to be housed elsewhere- but what about the residual W affects to the local economy ? The facilities jobs for locals , the local shops , pubs and other amenities that rely on the base - up to 10,000 people rely on that base. 

And that’s without forgetting the NATO treaties etc.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The ones employed by the MOD “if” there is somewhere for Trident to be housed elsewhere- but what about the residual W affects to the local economy ? The facilities jobs for locals , the local shops , pubs and other amenities that rely on the base - up to 10,000 people rely on that base.

And that’s without forgetting the NATO treaties etc.
		
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And how many locally?

A few admin and cleaning staff.

Hence why it'll cost England billions to house Trident in English waters. Therefore will a deal be done, will they decommission Faslane? Huge headache for Westminster. 

Local economy like a lot of places will suffer an initial loss of income/revenue.


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## Leftie (Dec 31, 2019)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm not understanding this thread.  I thought it was about vasectomy.
		
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It is, in a way.  Perform the cut - result impotence


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## USER1999 (Dec 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets face it, those mars bars arnt going to fry themselves.
		
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These will be the mars bars made in Slough that will have to be smuggled across the border to avoid import duty. After all, we will no doubt tax the heck out of short bread, and, and, stuff. Oh, Tunnocks igloos or some such.


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			These will be the mars bars made in Slough that will have to be smuggled across the border to avoid import duty. After all, we will no doubt tax the heck out of short bread, and, and, stuff. Oh, Tunnocks igloos or some such.
		
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Don’t forget men’s skirts and irn bru


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And how many locally?

A few admin and cleaning staff.

Hence why it'll cost England billions to house Trident in English waters. Therefore will a deal be done, will they decommission Faslane? Huge headache for Westminster.

Local economy like a lot of places will suffer an initial loss of income/revenue.
		
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Believe the base employs thousands locally and it’s one of if not the biggest employer in the local area - more than a few admin and cleaning staff 

And it’s not just “initial” loss - it’s permanent loss because I fail to see what can replace that level of employment 

They won’t decommission is and it will just stay at Faslane as part of the UK Armed Forces along with all the other vital UK Armed Forces bases around Scotland 

But I think most know that the backing for independance hasn’t increased since the last time they were asked and said no


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 31, 2019)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I see that English, Scottish, and Northern Irish flags are represented in the Union Jack, but nothing resembling the Welsh flag.
Is Wales seeking independence as well?
		
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Technically Wales is a principality, not a country. It is like Monaco in that sense. As such it did not get a place on the flag. Please note, everyone in the UK regards Wales as a country, this is a historical blip.

If Scotland does go independent it gives an opportunity to correct this, imo, although saying that flags are so symbolic that whether the flag changes is open to debate.

The demand for Welsh independence is pretty limited largely due to economic reasons. Put simply Wales is not economically viable and the people of Wales know this. It has it's own parliament, a fair degree of devolved decision making, language and signs throughout Wales are in both English and Welsh. I've no doubt the Welsh would ultimately like independence but it is not really a talking point, unlike Scotland.


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## USER1999 (Dec 31, 2019)

The flag thing is interesting, and to me, if Scotland leave, the blue bits on the flag need to go. It is the flag of the union, and they won't be in it. Update it, why not? Not sure what Welsh bits could be added though. Some green bits?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			The flag thing is interesting, and to me, if Scotland leave, the blue bits on the flag need to go. It is the flag of the union, and they won't be in it. Update it, why not? Not sure what Welsh bits could be added though. Some green bits?
		
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Maybe we need a complete rethink of the flag, not be restrained by the current design. I think that would make more sense.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			The flag thing is interesting, and to me, if Scotland leave, the blue bits on the flag need to go. It is the flag of the union, and they won't be in it. Update it, why not? Not sure what Welsh bits could be added though. Some green bits?
		
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And a little dragon in the corner somewhere?


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## KenL (Dec 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Westminster Government had a real chance to show Scotland what it meant in the words of the 2014 Vow to the nation.
Instead they ignored every promise and then declared what is basically an English parliament within Westminster.
We now know where we stand and another 10 years of right wing Tory broken promises to Scotland is not on our agenda
		
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Could you enlighten us.  What are the broken promises?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 31, 2019)

I understand that the Conservatives do better in England than they do in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales, but they don't do well in London, do they?
Republicans can't win a school committee seat in our major cities.  Unfortunately, our whole country isn't major cities.  I wish it were.  I'd be happy to import food.


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## Dando (Jan 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			Could you enlighten us.  What are the broken promises?
		
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Don’t expect an answer


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			Could you enlighten us.  What are the broken promises?
		
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Go into Google type in 'The Vow Scottish Independence 2014' and fill your boots


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 1, 2020)

Dando said:



			Don’t expect an answer
		
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https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...-together-campaign-revealed-independence-day/


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## Hobbit (Jan 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			Could you enlighten us.  What are the broken promises?
		
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Dando said:



			Don’t expect an answer
		
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There's a list of 17 broken promises being touted by Indy supporting press, some I'd say are stretching it but some I'd say are genuine broken promises. The obvious one being the only way for Scotland to guarantee continued membership of the EU is to vote "no" for independence. It could be argued the Scotland retained membership of the EU, post-Indy vote.... but only for 4 years. Its semantics but it depends on your own interpretation. Was the promise broken? No more so than the SNP's, "its a once in a generation vote."... open to interpretation and spin.

A more obvious broken promise was the only way to guarantee funding for the renewable energies, and the funding for the carbon capture plant at Peterhead. Funding for both was either drastically reduced or, as for Peterhead, cut completely which led to the shelving of the project.

A stupid promise, and it seems hard to believe that some people were/are gullible enough to believe it, was the only way to protect steel jobs was to vote "no." Within months 250 steel jobs were lost. The reality for anyone with intelligence was that Westminster didn't have the power to stop a private company from making people redundant. But its fodder for the Indy propaganda mill.

From what I can remember, there was also promises of new devolved powers. Vaguely... I think the Bill in Westminster was watered down before the vote on it. You'd have to research it but if my memory isn't too fuddled I'd say there's a broken promise in there somewhere.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Go into Google type in 'The Vow Scottish Independence 2014' and fill your boots
		
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Happy New Year. The more i read what you say, it is definitely influincing me in favour of independence!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2020)

View from an SNP voter in a house just outside Aberdeen this morning was how there is a widespread detestation of Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg - they typify for many Scots all that they dislike in people; and that Sturgeon has to be careful not pushing too hard in 2020 - she needs to let things pan out - but she has a tricky balancing act with many SNP voters not wanting Scotland to be in the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 1, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			There's a list of 17 broken promises being touted by Indy supporting press, some I'd say are stretching it but some I'd say are genuine broken promises. The obvious one being the only way for Scotland to guarantee continued membership of the EU is to vote "no" for independence. It could be argued the Scotland retained membership of the EU, post-Indy vote.... but only for 4 years. Its semantics but it depends on your own interpretation. Was the promise broken? No more so than the SNP's, "its a once in a generation vote."... open to interpretation and spin.

A more obvious broken promise was the only way to guarantee funding for the renewable energies, and the funding for the carbon capture plant at Peterhead. Funding for both was either drastically reduced or, as for Peterhead, cut completely which led to the shelving of the project.

A stupid promise, and it seems hard to believe that some people were/are gullible enough to believe it, was the only way to protect steel jobs was to vote "no." Within months 250 steel jobs were lost. The reality for anyone with intelligence was that Westminster didn't have the power to stop a private company from making people redundant. But its fodder for the Indy propaganda mill.

From what I can remember, there was also promises of new devolved powers. Vaguely... I think the Bill in Westminster was watered down before the vote on it. You'd have to research it but if my memory isn't too fuddled I'd say there's a broken promise in there somewhere.
		
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P&J an Indy supporting press
I am now beginning to doubt if you actually did live in the area.


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## Hobbit (Jan 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			View from an SNP voter in a house just outside Aberdeen this morning was how there is a widespread detestation of Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg - they typify for many Scots all that they dislike in people; and that Sturgeon has to be careful not pushing too hard in 2020 - she needs to let things pan out - but she has a tricky balancing act with many SNP voters not wanting Scotland to be in the EU.
		
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And if you asked a Tory voter from any of the Tory seats in Scotland they'd say....? And if you asked a Labour voter....? And if you asked a LibDem voter....?

As many people have said, a vote for the SNP isn't necessarily a vote for independence, just as a vote for the Tories in Scotland doesn't mean those voters wouldn't vote yes to indy if asked.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I see that English, Scottish, and Northern Irish flags are represented in the Union Jack, but nothing resembling the Welsh flag.
Is Wales seeking independence as well?
		
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Its because Wales is a Principality to the Kingdom of England and not a Nation.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its because Wales is a Principality not a Nation.
		
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They still could have stuck a little red dragon on a green patch somewhere in a corner of the venerable Union Jack, though.


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## KenL (Jan 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its because Wales is a Principality to the Kingdom of England and not a Nation.
		
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Does that mean that Wales could never get independence?


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## spongebob59 (Jan 1, 2020)

*worth a read*


*https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/...-with-the-euro/amp/?__twitter_impression=true*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And if you asked a Tory voter from any of the Tory seats in Scotland they'd say....? And if you asked a Labour voter....? And if you asked a LibDem voter....?

As many people have said, a vote for the SNP isn't necessarily a vote for independence, just as a vote for the Tories in Scotland doesn't mean those voters wouldn't vote yes to indy if asked.
		
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Indeed.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

This article is interesting........

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/11/27/the-snp-comes-undone/

it even gives a shout out to our own SILH. “Left-leaning liberals who don’t actually live in Scotland”


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			This article is interesting........

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/11/27/the-snp-comes-undone/

it even gives a shout out to our own SILH. “Left-leaning liberals who don’t actually live in Scotland”
		
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Hmmmm Andrew Neil interview.
I seem to recall a certain Tory leader who lacked the balls to do that one.

BTW Neil did not deny that Brexit was a fundamental change to the Edinburgh agreement.
He built his whole reason of argument around something he knew would not happen.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hmmmm *Andrew Neil interview.
I seem to recall a certain Tory leader who lacked the balls to do that one.*

BTW Neil did not deny that Brexit was a fundamental change to the Edinburgh agreement.
He built his whole reason of argument around something he knew would not happen.
		
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"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt,"😜


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			This article is interesting........

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/11/27/the-snp-comes-undone/

it even gives a shout out to our own SILH. “Left-leaning liberals who don’t actually live in Scotland”
		
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I am pretty sure what I'd vote if I got a vote in IndyRef2 when living in England.  However it is always going to be very unlikely that 'ex-pats' will ever get a vote in IndyRef2.  Were I living in Scotland when Indyref2 is called my view might be the same as it is today - but the experience of actually living in Scotland might have changed that view.

I have a rather left-field idea for Ex-Pats being consulted - ex-pats would vote but their vote would only come into play in some way if the criteria to be met for a Yes vote were only very marginally met or missed.  So for instance 49:51 either way - the ex-Pat vote would be taken into consideration in some way.  As it happens my feeling is that the Scots ex-pat vote would find a majority No.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 2, 2020)

I'm obviously not well informed on your political issues, but if our Democrats do as badly in our election as Labour did in yours, I'll be looking for political asylum in Canada. 
Our Republicans are far right of your Tories--closer to fascists, really.


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## stefanovic (Jan 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			Does that mean that Wales could never get independence?
		
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If the tartan brethren can have their independence referendum then I'm sure Wales can, as can English regions. 
How about an independent West Midlands for a start? 
We who live there need to protect our West Midlands plateau which is at sufficient altitude to guard against rising sea levels. 
People who iive at sea level and experience high tides and coastal erosion should not assume they can come and live here.


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## Dando (Jan 2, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			If the tartan brethren can have their independence referendum then I'm sure Wales can, as can English regions.
How about an independent West Midlands for a start?
We who live there need to protect our West Midlands plateau which is at sufficient altitude to guard against rising sea levels.
People who iive at sea level and experience high tides and coastal erosion should not assume they can come and live here.[/QUOTE

I’m sure the fact you live in the West Midlands would put people off moving there!
		
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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am pretty sure what I'd vote if I got a vote in IndyRef2 when living in England.  However it is always going to be very unlikely that 'ex-pats' will ever get a vote in IndyRef2.  Were I living in Scotland when Indyref2 is called my view might be the same as it is today - but the experience of actually living in Scotland might have changed that view.

I have a rather left-field idea for Ex-Pats being consulted - ex-pats would vote but their vote would only come into play in some way if the criteria to be met for a Yes vote were only very marginally met or missed.  So for instance 49:51 either way - the ex-Pat vote would be taken into consideration in some way.  As it happens my feeling is that the Scots ex-pat vote would find a majority No.
		
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Not sure what question you seemed to be answering there?...In my post I was just highlighting that the SNP are more popular with Left leaning Liberals that don’t live in Scotland (like yourself) than people that do actually live in Scotland under the SNP rule.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am pretty sure what I'd vote if I got a vote in IndyRef2 when living in England.  However it is always going to be very unlikely that 'ex-pats' will ever get a vote in IndyRef2.  Were I living in Scotland when Indyref2 is called my view might be the same as it is today - but the experience of actually living in Scotland might have changed that view.

I have a rather left-field idea for Ex-Pats being consulted - ex-pats would vote but their vote would only come into play in some way if the criteria to be met for a Yes vote were only very marginally met or missed.  So for instance 49:51 either way - the ex-Pat vote would be taken into consideration in some way.  As it happens my feeling is that the Scots ex-pat vote would find a majority No.
		
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From my experience of what happens to ex-pats when their home country votes Leave, e.g. cost of healthcare and changes to pensions, I'm inclined to say you might need a protest group to push for a vote etc.

Seriously, its not a walk in the park...


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not sure what question you seemed to be answering there?...In my post I was just highlighting that the SNP are more popular with Left leaning Liberals that don’t live in Scotland (like yourself) than people that do actually live in Scotland under the SNP rule.
		
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you appear to  be forgetting the 47 SNP MP's of a totarecently voted in 80 % of the seats, or are you saying they were voted in by left leaning ex pats?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			From my experience of what happens to ex-pats when their home country votes Leave, e.g. cost of healthcare and changes to pensions, I'm inclined to say you might need a protest group to push for a vote etc.

Seriously, its not a walk in the park...
		
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Do you really think SILH should have any say in a Scottish independence vote? He left 30+ years ago, earned all his money and paid Tax in England, took an English wife and now lives in one of the most affluent areas of Britain, with no plans to return to Scotland. I know he has friends and family in Scotland but so do I. Should I get a vote?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you appear to  be forgetting the 47 SNP MP's of a totarecently voted in 80 % of the seats, or are you saying they were voted in by left leaning ex pats?
		
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I’m not forgetting anything. More people voted for other parties.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you really think SILH should have any say in a Scottish independence vote? He left 30+ years ago, earned all his money and paid Tax in England, took an English wife and now lives in one of the most affluent areas of Britain, with no plans to return to Scotland. I know he has friends and family in Scotland but so do I. Should I get a vote?
		
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If you live there you vote, if you don't you can't. Obvious exceptions are overseas forces and equivalent. It's not tricky is it? Anything else is just questionable. 

Voting without facing the consequences is plain wrong.


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m not forgetting anything. More people voted for other parties.
		
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LOl, almost double what the next party vote 45% of the vote, so wrong to say they are not popular, still larger % voted SNP that voted Tory in the elections


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you really think SILH should have any say in a Scottish independence vote? He left 30+ years ago, earned all his money and paid Tax in England, took an English wife and now lives in one of the most affluent areas of Britain, with no plans to return to Scotland. I know he has friends and family in Scotland but so do I. Should I get a vote?
		
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99.99% of expats here in Spain have retained their British nationality. Every single one of them will be affected by Brexit, the affect being dependent on age. Below 60's will need private healthcare @ around £1500 a year. Pensioners will have their state pension frozen after 2 years. All will need to update their Residencia to 3rd country status. All of them pay tax in Spain, and some still in the UK too.

Do you think the Westminster govt will give Scot expats a 'free ride' if Indy happens?

UK expats can vote in UK elections for up to 15 years after they leave the UK but didn't get a vote on the very thing that affects them the most.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			LOl, almost double what the next party vote 45% of the vote, so wrong to say they are not popular, still larger % voted SNP that voted Tory in the elections
		
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But 55% of people DIDN’T vote for the SNP. So my point is valid.👍

Btw...The SNP vote is exactly the same share wise as the 2014 independence referendum. So their claim to have a mandate for indyref2 is also bull


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			99.99% of expats here in Spain have retained their British nationality. Every single one of them will be affected by Brexit, the affect being dependent on age. Below 60's will need private healthcare @ around £1500 a year. Pensioners will have their state pension frozen after 2 years. All will need to update their Residencia to 3rd country status. All of them pay tax in Spain, and some still in the UK too.

Do you think the Westminster govt will give Scot expats a 'free ride' if Indy happens?

UK expats can vote in UK elections for up to 15 years after they leave the UK but didn't get a vote on the very thing that affects them the most.
		
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Simple answer. Move back to England if it’s too terrible. 

LTs answer is correct.


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But 55% of people DIDN’T vote for the SNP. So my point is valid.👍

Btw...The SNP vote is exactly the same share wise as the 2014 independence referendum. So their claim to have a mandate for indyref2 is also bullshit.
		
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57% of people didn't Vote Tory either. so they are more unpopular

 but to say the SNP isnt popular is Scotland is crazy.

not to forget the maj of the population didn't  vote for Brexit in the ref, but its still the "will of the people"


so your point just isn't, all you are doing is trolling


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Simple answer. Move back to England if it’s too terrible.

LTs answer is correct.
		
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In your opinion LT's answer is correct.

As for moving back; we can afford the healthcare etc, many can't. Decisions made in the UK affected Brits abroad some of which still pay tax in the UK. You think one thing, I think another... both are just opinions.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			99.99% of expats here in Spain have retained their British nationality. Every single one of them will be affected by Brexit, the affect being dependent on age. Below 60's will need private healthcare @ around £1500 a year. Pensioners will have their state pension frozen after 2 years. All will need to update their Residencia to 3rd country status. All of them pay tax in Spain, and some still in the UK too.

Do you think the Westminster govt will give Scot expats a 'free ride' if Indy happens?

UK expats can vote in UK elections for up to 15 years after they leave the UK but didn't get a vote on the very thing that affects them the most.
		
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I can understand expats having concerns but arnt there reciprocal agreements for EU citizens in the UK and EU?  I guess after the end of the transition British Citizens in EU countries will have similar rights or maybe even better than those living in the rest of the world.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			57% of people didn't Vote Tory either. so they are more unpopular

but to say the SNP isnt popular is Scotland is crazy.

not to forget the maj of the population didn't  vote for Brexit in the ref, but its still the "will of the people"


so your point just isn't, all you are doing is trolling
		
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Not trolling at all Patrick, just highlighting the fact that the SNP only needed to get 45% of the vote to secure 81% of the seats. Such is the way of first past the post voting systems. Nowhere near as popular as the headline shouts.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			In your opinion LT's answer is correct.

As for moving back; we can afford the healthcare etc, many can't. Decisions made in the UK affected Brits abroad some of which still pay tax in the UK. You think one thing, I think another... both are just opinions.
		
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Yes of course in my opinion.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I can understand expats having concerns but arnt there reciprocal agreements for EU citizens in the UK and EU?  I guess after the end of the transition British Citizens in EU countries will have similar rights or maybe even better than those living in the rest of the world.
		
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There are reciprocal agreements in place now but at present no agreements post-Brexit. Spain have offered terms, unilaterally of the EU, but the UK hasn't reciprocated and Spain are threatening to withdraw the offer.


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## azazel (Jan 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But 55% of people DIDN’T vote for the SNP. So my point is valid.👍

Btw...The SNP vote is exactly the same share wise as the 2014 independence referendum. So their claim to have a mandate for indyref2 is also bullshit.
		
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They have plenty mandate, which was actually established well before the most recent general election when the Scottish Parliament voted in March 2017 to have a second referendum.


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2020)

azazel said:



			They have plenty mandate, which was actually established well before the most recent general election when the Scottish Parliament voted in March 2017 to have a second referendum.
		
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when the SP adopted the usual EU election rules of "keep voting until the public finally vote for what we wanted them to vote for"


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## Fade and Die (Jan 2, 2020)

azazel said:



			They have plenty mandate, which was actually established well before the most recent general election when the Scottish Parliament voted in March 2017 to have a second referendum.
		
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Hmm...So they lost the once in a generation referendum in 2014 and have not increased their vote share at all since then, plus the overwhelming majority of opinion polls since the EU referendum also show a persistent, if small, majority in favour of staying in the UK. but now somehow you think they have a mandate for another go?... C’mon mate give your head a wobble.


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			when the SP adopted the usual EU election rules of "keep voting until the public finally vote for what we wanted them to vote for"
		
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No, the SNP adopted “the usual” plan of “let’s put independence in our manifesto and if we are able to form a government then we’ll pursue that goal“. The SNP have won every election in Scotland in recent times and on each and every occasion they have stood on a commitment to independence, giving them every entitlement to pursue a second referendum. It’s not hard to understand unless you choose not to...


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Hmm...So they lost the once in a generation referendum in 2014 and have not increased their vote share at all since then, plus the overwhelming majority of opinion polls since the EU referendum also show a persistent, if small, majority in favour of staying in the UK. but now somehow you think they have a mandate for another go?... C’mon mate give your head a wobble.
		
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If they keep winning elections and forming a Scottish government with independence in their manifesto then they’re perfectly entitled to pursue another referendum.
It’s telling that very few people can come up with a decent reason against indyref2 and instead hide behind this “once in a generation” nonsense. If there’s a genuine belief that Scotland would vote no again then what’s to be afraid of?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

azazel said:



			If they keep winning elections and forming a Scottish government with independence in their manifesto then they’re perfectly entitled to pursue another referendum.
It’s telling that very few people can come up with a decent reason against indyref2 and instead hide behind this “once in a generation” nonsense. If there’s a genuine belief that Scotland would vote no again then what’s to be afraid of?
		
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If the majority of Scots want a second referendum then that's fine but i don't believe that's the case, Its just the divisive SNP whipping up something thats not true and will be damaging to Scotland... In the great words of Public Enemy, "Don't Believe The Hype"
 Relatives told me just how much their community was affected last time and they dread a repeat.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2020)

azazel said:



			If they keep winning elections and forming a Scottish government with independence in their manifesto then they’re perfectly entitled to pursue another referendum.
It’s telling that very few people can come up with a decent reason against indyref2 and instead hide behind this “once in a generation” nonsense. If there’s a genuine belief that Scotland would vote no again then what’s to be afraid of?
		
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Does every single voter agree with every single item on a manifesto? Do even the majority of voters agree with every single item on a manifesto? Did a majority of voters agree with the independence item on the manifesto? Was every Remain voter in Scotland an SNP voter?

Only a blind, stupid idiot would answer yes to any of the above.

The temperature is high at present, and I’d say now is the time for a vote. Go for it. But let’s not cloud that call with silly blanket statements like every SNP supporter wants independence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not trolling at all Patrick, just highlighting the fact that the SNP only needed to get 45% of the vote to secure 81% of the seats. Such is the way of first past the post voting systems. Nowhere near as popular as the headline shouts.
		
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You have no idea how Scots would vote in a Referendum as opposed to a Westminster election. No one does.
Tactical voting was all over the place. One party stood on a no Indyref2 platform and lost heavily. 
Yet you keep displaying your flawed views.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You have no idea how Scots would vote in a Referendum as opposed to a Westminster election. No one does.
Tactical voting was all over the place. One party stood on a no Indyref2 platform and lost heavily.
*Yet you keep displaying your flawed views*.
		
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What flawed views?

You state "You have no idea how Scots would vote in a Referendum as opposed to a Westminster election. No one does."...well we can have a good guess can't we? Scotland voted NO in 2014, and there is no evidence that the SNP have increased there support. All the polls suggest that Scotland wants to remain part of the UK.

The labour vote has collapsed in Scotland. (I don't know why, I haven't read up on it) The SNP vote went up 8% this time while the Labour vote fell 8.5% so it looks like many voters that rejected Labour couldn't bring themselves to vote Con or LD so they switched to SNP. but total support was only 45% (same % as indyref1) so its hardly a ringing endorsement for another divisive Ref is it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you really think SILH should have any say in a Scottish independence vote? He left 30+ years ago, earned all his money and paid Tax in England, took an English wife and now lives in one of the most affluent areas of Britain, with no plans to return to Scotland. I know he has friends and family in Scotland but so do I. Should I get a vote?
		
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You are correct in all but one thing - we have plans to move to Edinburgh or vicinity within the next 2yrs.

Note that my suggestion is that an ex-pat vote would NOT count towards the result - but could be used in some way as a form of 'tie-breaker' were the result of the vote very close.  And that way could, just for instance, be that a narrow Yes vote would have to be confirmed by a Yes vote of say 60/40 by the ex-pat electorate.

And as I also noted I suspect that the ex-pat vote is currently the other way round - probably quite strongly No.  I'd be interested in any survey of Scots ex-pats that showed what our vews currently are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But 55% of people DIDN’T vote for the SNP. So my point is valid.👍

Btw...The SNP vote is exactly the same share wise as the 2014 independence referendum. So their claim to have a mandate for indyref2 is also bullshit.
		
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In much the same way then you could describe Johnson's mandate for implementing the Tory manifesto from the last GE (sorry - the unelected Wormtongue Cummings manifesto - with thanks to JRR Tolkein for the perfect characterisation)


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2020)

The old chestnut about the rights and voting entitlement of expats keeps coming up in the Brexit and Scottish Independence discussions.

IMO, which may be unpopular, is that if you decided to move to another country - do so! I believe the phrases are " When in Rome do as the Romans" or "Once you've made your bed lie in it"

If you decided that, on balance, you no longer enjoy being a UK citizen / resident in the UK and opted for a better life in another nation that decision carves out your future. I do not think you should then expect to vote and dictate the how those remaining in the UK should behave/vote etc. Ex-pats should get involved and fully contribute to the country they have decided to make home.

Pensions paid and built up in the UK should obviously still be honoured but whether the taxes paid by the improving wealth generated by future generations entitles expats to get similar rises and benefits while resident overseas is a more debatable question.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2020)

There was a request for name calling to end in December. 3rd day of the New Year and already it begins again 🙄. Come on, leave it out, raise the tone.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was a request for name calling to end in December. 3rd day of the New Year and already it begins again 🙄. Come on, leave it out, raise the tone.
		
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I thought it was fairly innocuous so far 🤔


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In much the same way then you could describe Johnson's mandate for implementing the Tory manifesto from the last GE (sorry - the unelected Wormtongue Cummings manifesto - with thanks to JRR Tolkein for the perfect characterisation)
		
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Why do you always feel the need to name call politicians that don't suit your ideals. As a man of faith aren't you supposed to be above all that. 

It adds nothing to the debate and detracts from moments when you do post valid points. 

As for your idea on ex pats being used to sway votes, imo a terrible idea and puts the outcome for the majority in the hands of a minority who moved away and will have no further input into the economic situation as they aren't living there and part of what maybe to come for all those still living there.


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In much the same way then you could describe Johnson's mandate for implementing the Tory manifesto from the last GE (sorry - the unelected Wormtongue Cummings manifesto - with thanks to JRR Tolkein for the perfect characterisation)
		
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The maxim for Christianity, I thought, was that you treat others as you wish to be treated does that not include insults/name calling?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought it was fairly innocuous so far 🤔
		
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Post 841, it's just petty.


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Does every single voter agree with every single item on a manifesto? Do even the majority of voters agree with every single item on a manifesto? Did a majority of voters agree with the independence item on the manifesto? Was every Remain voter in Scotland an SNP voter?

Only a blind, stupid idiot would answer yes to any of the above.

The temperature is high at present, and I’d say now is the time for a vote. Go for it. But let’s not cloud that call with silly blanket statements like every SNP supporter wants independence.
		
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I don’t think I said or even implied that every SNP voter wants independence as, likewise, there will even be Tory and labour voters who do want it. No-one, unless they’re a blind, stupid idiot, fails to realise that voting for the SNP - particularly in a Scottish election - comes with the possibility of independence or at the very least a second referendum, even if that isn’t the individual voters own preference. Being a minority government, it wasn’t just the SNP that voted for indyref2 in holyrood of course.


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			If the majority of Scots want a second referendum then that's fine but i don't believe that's the case, Its just the divisive SNP whipping up something thats not true and will be damaging to Scotland... In the great words of Public Enemy, "Don't Believe The Hype"
Relatives told me just how much their community was affected last time and they dread a repeat.
		
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Enough Scots voted for parties in Holyrood in order for legislation to be passed backing indyref2. Anything else is just bluster, including nonsense about divided communities.


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## Dando (Jan 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Post 841, it's just petty.
		
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he just can't resist


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2020)

Good to see English people still know what’s best for the Scottish people.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What flawed views?

You state "You have no idea how Scots would vote in a Referendum as opposed to a Westminster election. No one does."...well we can have a good guess can't we? Scotland voted NO in 2014, and there is no evidence that the SNP have increased there support. All the polls suggest that Scotland wants to remain part of the UK.

The labour vote has collapsed in Scotland. (I don't know why, I haven't read up on it) The SNP vote went up 8% this time while the Labour vote fell 8.5% so it looks like many voters that rejected Labour couldn't bring themselves to vote Con or LD so they switched to SNP. but total support was only 45% (same % as indyref1) so its hardly a ringing endorsement for another divisive Ref is it?
		
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Using you logic, there was only one party solely against stopping Indyref2
They got about 22% of the votes so 78% of voters were pro independence.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Using you logic, there was only one party solely against stopping Indyref2
They got about 22% of the votes so 78% of voters were pro independence.
		
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No you are deliberately ignoring the uncomfortable point I’m making...remember it is Nicola who is trying to turn the GE into a proxy indyref. She claimed the result was a mandate for another independence referendum. I was just pointing out that’s nonsense.


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## Slab (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			No you are deliberately ignoring the uncomfortable point I’m making...remember it is Nicola who is trying to turn the GE into a proxy indyref. She claimed the result was a mandate for another independence referendum. I was just pointing out that’s nonsense.
		
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You're overlooking the very obvious point that you're (very probably) mistaken in the first ministers primary intent when she asked for a 2nd referendum immediately after the general election


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			No you are deliberately ignoring the uncomfortable point I’m making...remember it is Nicola who is trying to turn the GE into a proxy indyref. She claimed the result was a mandate for another independence referendum. I was just pointing out that’s nonsense.
		
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Goodness me they have had FOUR mandates in a row now......……..how many do you think they need.
Scots Tories were the only ones spouting off about Indyref in the GE.
Lets face it, they had very little else to go on.
SNP focussed on Brexit and getting rid of the Tories, much to the disgust of some of their supporters.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			The maxim for Christianity, I thought, was that you treat others as you wish to be treated does that not include insults/name calling?
		
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Do you understand thne difference between name calling and characterisation - just go read LotR if you don't know who Wormtongue is  - and I was referring to Cumming btw - and he no politician.

If you wish a Christian 'maxim' for this context, then it is that you fearlessly call out individuals for what they are.  That does not stop you loving them, forgiving them and praying for them - these as you will know are some of the key 'maxims' of Christianity.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			You're overlooking the very obvious point that you're (very probably) mistaken in the first ministers primary intent when she asked for a 2nd referendum immediately after the general election
		
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Well I’m guessing she thinks if she kicks up enough of a fuss about Brexit and indyref2 then the Westminster government will be naively provoked into – crime of all crimes – ‘talking Scotland down’. This, in turn, will drive up support for independence, so that the presently empty threats of indyref2 will begin to carry some weight.? 
Or is it more cunning than that? 🦊😆


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			The maxim for Christianity, I thought, was that you treat others as you wish to be treated does that not include insults/name calling?
		
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EDIT - combined


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

Help me understand.

Is the big objection to remaining with Brussels based largely on Muslim immigration?  What are the other factors?  We're so hopelessly screwed up over here that I don't have a chance to concentrate on your issues.


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## USER1999 (Jan 3, 2020)

Re Indy ref 2, to me, it is not the right time. Regardless of whether it is the right time for Scotland or not.

Why? Because I would rather our politicians, civil service, negotiating teams were concentrating on Brexit, getting the best divorce, the best trade deals, etc. These negotiations will be on going for ages, and will require 100% effort. There is simply not the slack required to campaign during indy ref 2, and not the capacity to even think about how a break up would work.

It is easy to say that the details can be banged out later, but given the mess that is Brexit, this is plainly not true. People need to know exactly what they are voting for, or there will be calls for a 3rd vote.

I am not sure when the right time will be though!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Help me understand.

Is the big objection to remaining with Brussels based largely on Muslim immigration?  What are the other factors?  We're so hopelessly screwed up over here that I don't have a chance to concentrate on your issues.
		
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We dont get much Muslim immigration from the EU. Its simply a matter of whether you want to take full control over the way your country is governed or are content with being a part of a group who wants its member states to become ever closer integrated in law, finance, trade, defence and borders.  Its a bit like asking USA  citizens to become members of a new state that includes Canada and all the South American countries where central control would be somewhere like Mexico and you would have open borders so anyone would have the right to move to any of the countries and your laws would be subject to being overturned by the Union.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Post 841, it's just petty.
		
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Oh yes, missed that.  Yes it is.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you understand thne difference between name calling and characterisation - just go read LotR if you don't know who Wormtongue is  - and I was referring to Cumming btw - and he no politician.

If you wish a Christian 'maxim' for this context, then it is that you fearlessly call out individuals for what they are.  That does not stop you loving them, forgiving them and praying for them - these as you will know are some of the key 'maxims' of Christianity.
		
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Ah yes, I must remember I can call anyone anything I want as long as I love them. 

If you feel someone is a "wormtongue" you take them to one side and have a quiet word with them. You don't call them out in public. Have you never had a manager commit the cardinal sin of embarrassing you in front of others? And how well was that received?

Very, very disappointing.


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## patricks148 (Jan 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Re Indy ref 2, to me, it is not the right time. Regardless of whether it is the right time for Scotland or not.

Why? Because I would rather our politicians, civil service, negotiating teams were concentrating on Brexit, getting the best divorce, the best trade deals, etc. These negotiations will be on going for ages, and will require 100% effort. There is simply not the slack required to campaign during indy ref 2, and not the capacity to even think about how a break up would work.

It is easy to say that the details can be banged out later, but given the mess that is Brexit, this is plainly not true. People need to know exactly what they are voting for, or there will be calls for a 3rd vote.

I am not sure when the right time will be though!
		
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luckily its not your decision a bit like it wasn't scotlands to leave the EU

it should be Scotlands choice and no one elses


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We dont get much Muslim immigration from the EU. Its simply a matter of whether you want to take full control over the way your country is governed or are content with being a part of a group who wants its member states to become ever closer integrated in law, finance, trade, defence and borders.  Its a bit like asking USA  citizens to become members of a new state that includes Canada and all the South American countries where central control would be somewhere like Mexico and you would have open borders so anyone would have the right to move to any of the countries and your laws would be subject to being overturned by the Union.
		
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I didn't realize the EU was that encompassing.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I didn't realize the EU was that encompassing.
		
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It wasnt when we joined it but over time it has become much more than a trading block and more of a federal state of Europe.


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## USER1999 (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			luckily its not your decision a bit like it wasn't scotlands to leave the EU

it should be Scotlands choice and no one elses
		
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Why? We would all be affected by it, so if the time for the rest of the UK, the vast majority in the UK, is really really not the right time, why should it be up to the Scottish when it is held?  It is like sneakingbit in while everybody else has their back turned, working on something else. Something that for the majority in the UK is more important.


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Why? We would all be affected by it, so if the time for the rest of the UK, the vast majority in the UK, is really really not the right time, why should it be up to the Scottish when it is held?  It is like sneakingbit in while everybody else has their back turned, working on something else. Something that for the majority in the UK is more important.
		
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Scotland can only “ask” to leave at a time that suits England? Jings! That’s some “union”.


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## USER1999 (Jan 3, 2020)

Can you not see that now is probably the worst time you could chose?


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## azazel (Jan 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Can you not see that now is probably the worst time you could chose?
		
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Every minute not spent leaving is a minute wasted imo.


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## patricks148 (Jan 3, 2020)

azazel said:



			Scotland can only “ask” to leave at a time that suits England? Jings! That’s some “union”.
		
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esp as no one asked Scotland if they wanted to leave the EU, then ignored its opp anyway


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## patricks148 (Jan 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Why? We would all be affected by it, so if the time for the rest of the UK, the vast majority in the UK, is really really not the right time, why should it be up to the Scottish when it is held?  It is like sneakingbit in while everybody else has their back turned, working on something else. Something that for the majority in the UK is more important.
		
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same as scotlands opinion to leaving  the UK, Scotland said in the last GE it didn't back where the tory's wanted to take the UK so we want out simple as.

as far as Scotland  is concerned it couldn't be a better time


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## USER1999 (Jan 3, 2020)

So if Indy ref 2 is granted tomorrow, I guess as it's only a Scotyish issue, only Scottish politicians would be on the campaign trail? 
No. People would expect Westminster politicians to campaign in Scotland, and put forward their plans etc, lies or not, to keep the union together. 
So what happens to Brexit? Which if Indy ref 2 fails to get independence, may turn out to be quite important.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2020)

To our Scottish posters, one question, first off, I believe it should be a decision for yourselves and yourselves only. Unfortunately, I don’t believe boris will consider it during this parliament.
Therefore, the question is as follows:

If boris gets the deal he wants/plans and it’s the success he believes and us leavers want, do you not think that could be the biggest threat to the SNP or do you believe that regardless of how Brexit goes the SNP will still want a 2nd referendum with the promise to go back in to the EU?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			luckily its not your decision a bit like it wasn't scotlands to leave the EU

it should be Scotlands choice and no one elses
		
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And the biggest irony is the only chance you have of achieving “independence” is if you include the (hated) English in the vote! 😂🤣😂


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			To our Scottish posters, one question, first off, I believe it should be a decision for yourselves and yourselves only. Unfortunately, I don’t believe boris will consider it during this parliament.
Therefore, the question is as follows:

If boris gets the deal he wants/plans and it’s the success he believes and us leavers want, do you not think that could be the biggest threat to the SNP or do you believe that regardless of how Brexit goes the SNP will still want a 2nd referendum with the promise to go back in to the EU?
		
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Your Boris may or may not be the despicable cretin that our Donald is--I certainly wouldn't know--but he certainly needs a new barber just as much.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			esp as no one asked Scotland if they wanted to leave the EU, then ignored its opp anyway
		
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The first thing you/the snp need to do is respect the sovereignty of the U.K. and accept the vote. Seems odd you want us (the rUk) to respect your sovereignty but you refuse to accept ours? 🤔


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## Andy (Jan 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Your Boris may or may not be the despicable cretin that our Donald is--I certainly wouldn't know--but he certainly needs a new barber just as much.
		
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Both comb their hair with a firework.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			esp as no one asked Scotland if they wanted to leave the EU, then ignored its opp anyway
		
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We are/were a member of the EU as the United Kingdom

The people of the United Kingdom were asked if they wanted to leave or stay 

Scotland are not in the EU as their own country so why would they be asked as “Scotland” to stay in the EU

If Scotland want to be in the EU as their own country they first need to split from the UK - I believe last time they said they didn’t want to do that 

And if they are to leave they need to ask to join the EU and provide assurances they can stand on their own two feet within the EU and of course pay for their way.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			esp as no one asked Scotland if they wanted to leave the EU, then ignored its opp anyway
		
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If no one asked Scotland if they wanted to leave the EU then how could they ignore it's opinion?  Come on help me here.


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## patricks148 (Jan 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			To our Scottish posters, one question, first off, I believe it should be a decision for yourselves and yourselves only. Unfortunately, I don’t believe boris will consider it during this parliament.
Therefore, the question is as follows:

If boris gets the deal he wants/plans and it’s the success he believes and us leavers want, do you not think that could be the biggest threat to the SNP or do you believe that regardless of how Brexit goes the SNP will still want a 2nd referendum with the promise to go back in to the EU?
		
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No.
he comes across as a  vindictive spoilt child, and appears to want no deal what ever the cost, Industry and business don't want to leave, its not best for the Uk economy or Scotland.

what ever deal he does or doesn't won't benifit scotland, only Boris and the Tories...Scotlands future lies in its own hands not a westminster that only cares about the SE of England


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2020)

Crikey! Let Scotland have the vote, and hope they gain independence. One of the provisions in the Act was a payment by England absolving England of all future debts payable to Scotland and gives Scotland no call on any assets.

And the winner is.... drum roll.... England.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 3, 2020)

I had a friend--a very close friend when we were young-- who, after his wife died, moved to Alabama with some new woman that he met on a holiday.
I refused to communicate with him further just for that alone.  I permanently deleted his email address and mobile number.

You Scots and Englishman are as crazy as we are.


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## Leftie (Jan 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			........ Industry and business don't want to leave, its not best for the Uk economy or Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst you (and other doomsayers) may be absolutely right Patrick, I think that the people who probably know a little more than us would disagree.  I've just had a look at the FTSE indexes and see that all of them - FTSE 100, 250, 350, Small Caps, All Share etc -  are at almost record highs.  At least investors, fund manages, etc appear optimistic.


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## KenL (Jan 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			No.
he comes across as a  vindictive spoilt child, and appears to want no deal what ever the cost, Industry and business don't want to leave, its not best for the Uk economy or Scotland.

what ever deal he does or doesn't won't benifit scotland, only Boris and the Tories...Scotlands future lies in its own hands not a westminster that only cares about the SE of England
		
Click to expand...

Absolute nonsense.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It might be obvious to you but it is not obvious to me.
Scottish people paying for infrasctructure improvements to the richest region in Europe makes no sense to me.
Please explain how Crossrail and HS2 will help the average Dundee citizen.
		
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Has Dundee not just had millions spent on it ?


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## HankMarvin (Jan 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			People in Scotland were given the vote 5 years ago and there was a very clear outcome to remain.

For me, people up here don't know how lucky they are!  Look at the advantages over rUK, free prescriptions, eyetests, dental check ups, free bus travel anywhere in the country for everybody who is 60), free university education, power to raise taxes for average earners etc.

How anyone thinks things would be better as an independent country is beyond me.

The only thing about living in Scotland I don't like is having to living with the stress of the constant banging on by the SNP about independence!
		
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Well said.

We had a vote and the majority of the Scottish people voted to remain. Time for the SNP to get over it and move on with the real day job of running the country and sort out all their failing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2020)

Scots Labour party floating the idea of independence from the UK Labour party.
Brave move from a party with the same number of Westminster MP's as the Greens.
I think within the year they will be full Monty Independence, either that or oblivion.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Labour party floating the idea of independence from the UK Labour party.
Brave move from a party with the same number of Westminster MP's as the Greens.
I think within the year they will be full Monty Independence, either that or oblivion.
		
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What would Scots Labour offer that Westminster Labour cannot, Is it just indyref? 
I was wondering if the Scots Con split from Westminster, but had a supply and confidence agreement with the main party if they would be more popular up their?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ah yes, I must remember I can call anyone anything I want as long as I love them. 

If you feel someone is a "wormtongue" you take them to one side and have a quiet word with them. You don't call them out in public. Have you never had a manager commit the cardinal sin of embarrassing you in front of others? And how well was that received?

Very, very disappointing.
		
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If it necessary to call out someone like Cummings for the inappropriate influence he has - as an unelected advisor - then you do it.

I 100% agree with your comment in respect of those I can have direct contact with - but I do not have that with someone like Cummings so I do not think it inappropriate to characterise him as I see fit. Do we never refer to someone as a Jeremiah; or a Doubting Thomas; or a Jezebel; or a Judas?  We do so because these references characterise the individual as we see appropriate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What would Scots Labour offer that Westminster Labour cannot, Is it just indyref?
I was wondering if the Scots Con split from Westminster, but had a supply and confidence agreement with the main party if they would be more popular up their?
		
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Problem is that folk don't look at the big picture.
After independence there will be no need for the SNP [just like Brexit/UKIP parties in UK]. They will need to revolve into a new party, probably merge with Greens,
Labour, Liberals and the Tories  have been out of power for so long that the quality of their MSP's and MP's is very low. I would find it hard to name a decent one.

They did a poll about politician recognition a while ago and the numbers who recognised the leaders of the four opposition parties in Scotland was very low.
I bet few on here could name the leaders of the Scottish parties, Nicola exempted.
Tory party seem best placed to advance in those circumstances Labour will struggle and Greens will gain.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it necessary to call out someone like Cummings for the inappropriate influence he has - as an unelected advisor - then you do it.

I 100% agree with your comment in respect of those I can have direct contact with - but I do not have that with someone like Cummings so I do not think it inappropriate to characterise him as I see fit. Do we never refer to someone as a Jeremiah; or a Doubting Thomas; or a Jezebel; or a Judas?  We do so because these references characterise the individual as we see appropriate.
		
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IMO 'calling some-one out' (exposing their failings/behaviour etc.) is a world away from the juvenile insult of name calling.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Problem is that folk don't look at the big picture.
*After independence there will be no need for the SNP [just like Brexit/UKIP parties in UK]. They will need to revolve into a new party, probably merge with Greens,*
Labour, Liberals and the Tories  have been out of power for so long that the quality of their MSP's and MP's is very low. I would find it hard to name a decent one.

They did a poll about politician recognition a while ago and the numbers who recognised the leaders of the four opposition parties in Scotland was very low.
I bet few on here could name the leaders of the Scottish parties, Nicola exempted.
Tory party seem best placed to advance in those circumstances Labour will struggle and Greens will gain.
		
Click to expand...

But the vote was against Independence? 🤔

And why do we need to know the leaders of parties that have no relevance to the majority


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it necessary to call out someone like Cummings for the inappropriate influence he has - as an unelected advisor - then you do it.

I 100% agree with your comment in respect of those I can have direct contact with - but I do not have that with someone like Cummings so I do not think it inappropriate to characterise him as I see fit. Do we never refer to someone as a Jeremiah; or a Doubting Thomas; or a Jezebel; or a Judas?  We do so because these references characterise the individual as we see appropriate.
		
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First of all I think you have a very warped view in that respect. Just because you don't know a person personally makes it alright? No it doesn't. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour.

If you want to say Cummings is, for example, duplicitous or conniving, fine. Although I might ask the question, where is the proof that he has said/formulated/directed a particular policy. Where is the evidence he's been inappropriate? But name call...?

You've griped about the Wee Krankie slight but you're ok with calling someone Wormtongue? Mmm, double standards, hypocritical? You can't have it both ways. How does that make you look? I think the responses from others pretty much answers that.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it necessary to call out someone like Cummings for the inappropriate influence he has - as an unelected advisor - then you do it.

I 100% agree with your comment in respect of those I can have direct contact with - but I do not have that with someone like Cummings so I do not think it inappropriate to characterise him as I see fit. Do we never refer to someone as a Jeremiah; or a Doubting Thomas; or a Jezebel; or a Judas?  We do so because these references characterise the individual as we see appropriate.
		
Click to expand...

When you slander him as an unelected advisor I assume you will extend your insults to all those in the diplomatic service who are also unelected.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 5, 2020)

Descended into an attack on a man's faith now I see.

Very poor thread this. A man gets banned for showing passion and Lazarus rises again. Dear oh dear what an absolute embarrassment of a thread fuelled by a few utter trolls.


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## KenL (Jan 5, 2020)

Who got banned?


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

This whole thing is going far over my head, and I shouldn't stick my nose in.

But you've got such a lovely nation.
You've got a great NHS.
You've got good schools.
You have low crime.
You've got proud cities and lovely towns.

You've even got all the American fast food chains right outside of Windsor Castle.

The kind of bickering taking place belongs here in the US where different factions genuinely loathe each other.

I would think that the UK is a great place to live, or would be as soon as you learn how to cook.  

I certainly enjoyed it while I was there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO 'calling some-one out' (exposing their failings/behaviour etc.) is a world away from the juvenile insult of name calling.
		
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Do you actually know who Grima Wormtongue is and the context in which I think that he is an appropriate characterisation for Cummings. Maybe you think I just made up the word ‘wormtongue’ as it sounds like juvenile name calling.  But if you don’t know him from LotR maybe check him out before attacking me for name-calling.

Or maybe I just call him a weirdo misfit as these are the sort of folks he wants to be working with?


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			This whole thing is going far over my head, and I shouldn't stick my nose in.

But you've got such a lovely nation.
You've got a great NHS.
You've got good schools.
You have low crime.
You've got proud cities and lovely towns.

You've even got all the American fast food chains right outside of Windsor Castle.

The kind of bickering taking place belongs here in the US where different factions genuinely loathe each other.

I would think that the UK is a great place to live, or would be as soon as you learn how to cook. 

I certainly enjoyed it while I was there.
		
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when you say learn to cook do you just mean deep fry everything and then cover it in cheese thats isn't really cheese, but more like some sort of plastic??

i think we have some great Chef's the US on the other hand has some cooks


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			do you just mean deep fry everything and then cover it in cheese thats isn't really cheese, but more like some sort of plastic??
/QUOTE]

Well, yes, that's_ partially _what I mean.  Do you still have that American "TGIF" right in or near near Piccadilly Circus?   I had some great meals there.
		
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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2020)

no idea as i live 567 miles away from london, but from memory TGIF to put in American is Garbage


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			no idea as i live 567 miles away from london, but from memory TGIF to put in American is Garbage

Click to expand...

Hmmm.. I guess I know _somebody_ who doesn't like baby back ribs with Jack Daniel BBQ sauce.









h


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2020)

patricks148 said:



*when you say learn to cook do you just mean deep fry everything *and then cover it in cheese thats isn't really cheese, but more like some sort of plastic??

i think we have some great Chef's the US on the other hand has some cooks


Click to expand...

What like Mars Bars 🤣🤣


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Hmmm.. I guess I know _somebody_ who doesn't like baby back ribs with Jack Daniel BBQ sauce.
h
		
Click to expand...

Now two, I have never eaten babies or drunk American whiskey.
When it comes to food I go out of my way not to eat American


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2020)

This shows up the utter incompetent form of Scots Tory's and their propaganda machine [BBC Scotland]
Who is there in Scottish MSM to stand up to this nonsense, how much of a brass neck do the Scots Tories have to present this as 'News'.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213930862414352387


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Now two, I have never eaten babies or drunk American whiskey.
When it comes to food I go out of my way not to eat American
		
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More for me, I guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Just one consequential of the GE and the new government trying to work out how to please everybody who voted for them is that I hear that the budget is not going to be until early March.  

The Scottish Government was due to present it's budget to Holyrood on 12th December but is having to wait until the Tories present theirs.  I'm thinking the Scottish government could present a budget making assumptions about the UK government budget - but that would be rather irresponsible given we don't have much idea of what Johnson and Crew will come up with.  

A little bit more grist to the mill for the SNPs argument.  Scotland might have it's own government in Holyrood - but it is still in many ways subservient to that in Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2020)

The late budget has put the Scottish Government in an intolerable position, they basically have to guess what Westminster is going to do.

Under the new 'getting our country' back rules it now also appears that individual Westminster ministers can overrule decisions made by the Scottish Parliament.
Mind you they reassure us that this will not happen under 'normal' circumstances….now we all know what that means.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2020)

Newcastle vote to join Scotland.
Can't say I blame them.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/new...r.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Newcastle vote to join Scotland.
Can't say I blame them.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/new...r.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Click to expand...

What a crock of manure.  Afew thousand people, bet most of them were Scots.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2020)

I see the Tory party MP's hysterically yelling at a Scottish MP and stopping civilised debate.
The new Speaker twiddles his thumbs and fails to intervein.
Mind you this is after telling everyone that he wants a new kind of atmosphere at Westminster...…..same as same as.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What a crock of manure.  Afew thousand people, bet most of them were Scots.
		
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Bah!.... was hoping he was not going to get any bites on this obvious “fishing trip” 😂


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## Fade and Die (Jan 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the Tory party MP's hysterically yelling at a Scottish MP and stopping civilised debate.
The new Speaker twiddles his thumbs and fails to intervein.
Mind you this is after telling everyone that he wants a new kind of atmosphere at Westminster...…..same as same as.
		
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Again very poor bait Doon. Must try harder. 🎣


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Bah!.... was hoping he was not going to get any bites on this obvious “fishing trip” 😂
		
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Fade and Die said:



			Again very poor bait Doon. Must try harder. 🎣
		
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He’s best left in the corner with his crayons.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2020)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...brendan-o-hara-boris-johnson-house-of-commons

Well if the above three posters think this is acceptable behaviour in the Westminster Parliament I think you have far different standards then I do.


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## Dando (Jan 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...brendan-o-hara-boris-johnson-house-of-commons

Well if the above three posters think this is acceptable behaviour in the Westminster Parliament I think you have far different standards then I do.

Click to expand...

😴😴😴


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2020)

Dando said:



			😴😴😴
		
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Yes, one of the three is himself


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2020)

DfT - If Ian Blackford would speak without the hyped rhetoric and theatrics there might be chance that the colour and debating style would reflect his more measured approach and he'd get less emotive, or angry retorts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			DfT - If Ian Blackford would speak without the hyped rhetoric and theatrics there might be chance that the colour and debating style would reflect his more measured approach and he'd get less emotive, or angry retorts.
		
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It was not Ian Blackford who was speaking.
Are you trying to make up excuses for denying free speech by Tory Party 'mob ' rule in Parliament.?

The most amusing bit about this story is that Mr O'Hara was attempting to point out that Thatcher and Major [and even Tebbit] declared that a simple majority in Scotlsnd or the Scots Parliament would be enough to trigger a referendum.
Also worth remembering that Cameron had promised that we would not leave the EU without the consent of NI, Wales and Scotland.


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It was not Ian Blackford who was speaking.
Are you trying to make up excuses for denying free speech by Tory Party 'mob ' rule in Parliament.?

The most amusing bit about this story is that Mr O'Hara was attempting to point out that Thatcher and Major [and even Tebbit] declared that a simple majority in Scotlsnd or the Scots Parliament would be enough to trigger a referendum.
Also worth remembering that Cameron had promised that we would not leave the EU without the consent of NI, Wales and Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

IMO there's no excuse for bad manners by anyone, I was simply making the more general comment on the nature of the debates and IMO, Blackmore's 'tantrum' style. Repeating...
Scotland did gain the option of a referendum 2014.
Whole of UK participated on 2016.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2020)

Scots Labour Party look towards Scottish Independence through federalism and breaking away from UK Labour Party.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...pendence-referendum-indyref2?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## IanM (Jan 10, 2020)

Every time I see this thread title I think it is someone asking about having a vasectomy!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Labour Party look towards Scottish Independence through federalism and breaking away from UK Labour Party.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...pendence-referendum-indyref2?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

What would a "pro-federal" option be? Would that be something that the rest of the UK would have to have a referendum on to agree or reject?


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What would a "pro-federal" option be? Would that be something that the rest of the UK would have to have a referendum on to agree or reject?
		
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Please nooo! - not another 'advisory', 'non-binding', 'we'll honour the result' or perhaps 'we need a confirmatory vote' farce with more buses and AN interviews: I'll need to restock the booze cupboard


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Labour Party look towards Scottish Independence through federalism and breaking away from UK Labour Party.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...pendence-referendum-indyref2?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

Desperation!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Please nooo! - not another 'advisory', 'non-binding', 'we'll honour the result' or perhaps 'we need a confirmatory vote' farce with more buses and AN interviews: I'll need to restock the booze cupboard 

Click to expand...

Speaking of honouring stuff, why have you not mentioned of The Vow to Scotland that was signed by the Tory/Labour and Lib Dem leaders when they thought they were going to lose the 2014 referendum.
Some very one sided honouring happening on your side of the fence eh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Labour Party look towards Scottish Independence through federalism and breaking away from UK Labour Party.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...pendence-referendum-indyref2?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

I think it was an attempt at sarcastic humour by the OP


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of honouring stuff, why have you not mentioned of The Vow to Scotland that was signed by the Tory/Labour and Lib Dem leaders when they thought they were going to lose the 2014 referendum.
Some very one sided honouring happening on your side of the fence eh.

Click to expand...

I see that complaints about the 'external' earning of Mr Blackmore have resurfaced which he's refused to stop as an SNP. The 'honourable' gentleman obviously does not feel the '95 "Nolan Principles" of honour in public life apply to him but only to Westminster.


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## KenL (Jan 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of honouring stuff, why have you not mentioned of The Vow to Scotland that was signed by the Tory/Labour and Lib Dem leaders when they thought they were going to lose the 2014 referendum.
Some very one sided honouring happening on your side of the fence eh.

Click to expand...

Aye, Scotland gets a raw deal - not!
I'm Scottish and totally fekking sick of tiny minded separatists and their poor me attitude.
If independence happens those people will soon know what poor is.


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## DRW (Jan 14, 2020)

If we remain in the UK, the Conservative Party’s promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership raises the serious possibility that Scotland will be forced to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland.
		
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The above is a quote from the Scottish paper over the 2014 independence referendum UNDER chapter 1 of 'The case for Independence'.

Less up not forgot what was said by both sides evenly, and therefore to say the EU vote is a change in circumstances as some would post on here, is not quite true, as it was given in one of the reasons to vote leave and it was taken into account for in the independence vote.

I have attached the paper it is from and the link:-

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

thought I would upload, as find it an interesting point, that I was not aware of before.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2020)

Not quite getting why you think that there has not been a change in circumstances - what the _Yes _campaign feared and warned of, has come to pass.

It seems to be stretching things a bit to suggest that the vote against leaving the Union is evidence that the the same majority would be happy for Scotland to be leaving the EU against the wishes of the Scottish electorate - when the _No _Campaign was telling the electorate that saying _No _was the best way to ensure that Scotland *remained *in the EU - and that what _Yes _campaign was saying about Scotland leaving the EU if we voted _No _was all *Project Fear *(which is after all where the Brexit *Project Fear* came from) and not to be believed.  You are suggesting that voters voted _No _believing the warnings of the _Yes _campaign and rejecting those of the _No _campaign.

This is the same logic that has seen _Leave _supporters quoting the warnings of _Remain _that Leaving would mean leaving the SM and CU, when at the time _Leave _was saying that that was all *Project Fear* and not to be believed.  So voters voted _Leave _believing the warnings of the _Remain _campaign and rejecting those of the _Leave _campaign.

Well you can try that.


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## Captainron (Jan 16, 2020)

So now that Boris has told her that a second referendum won't be sanctioned by Westminster, how does that effect things in the short term?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now that Boris has told her that a second referendum won't be sanctioned by Westminster, how does that effect things in the short term?
		
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Boris can stop talking about the Will of the People being paramount to everything.  The People of Scotland, by continually electing the SNP when the SNP have clearly got independence and a referendum vote up front in their offering, suggests that, as a minimum, the SNP has a mandate from the people of Scotland - that it is the Will of the People of Scotland - to hold a referendum - even if all of that same SNP voting electorate might not want, and so won't actually vote for, independence.


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## KenL (Jan 16, 2020)

SNP did not get more than 50% of the votes in any recent election.
Therefore most of the people in Scotland do not support independence.
There is NO mandate. Move on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

KenL said:



			SNP did not get more than 50% of the votes in any recent election.
Therefore most of the people in Scotland do not support independence.
There is NO mandate. Move on.
		
Click to expand...

Did you read what I posted...?

here's the last few words

_'the SNP has a mandate from the people of Scotland - that it is the Will of the People of Scotland - *to hold a referendum *- even if *all of that same SNP voting electorate *might not want, and so *won't actually vote for, independence. *_


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## Slab (Jan 16, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now that Boris has told her that a second referendum won't be sanctioned by Westminster, how does that effect things in the short term?
		
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The PM can now fully expect that if he doesn't cut the brexit cake fairly then this refusal will be brought back out at every meeting

that is the only short term change


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## Dando (Jan 16, 2020)

Captainron said:



			So now that Boris has told her that a second referendum won't be sanctioned by Westminster, how does that effect things in the short term?
		
Click to expand...

it won't stop her whinging and whining that Boris is stopping democracy


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## Wolf (Jan 16, 2020)

Dando said:



			it won't stop her whinging and whining that Boris is stopping democracy
		
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Just like it won't stop certain posters on herr complaining England have no right and England have it in for them regardless of facts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2020)

To those who do not support Independence please tell me, in your own words, what you would consider 'enough' for a mandate on Scottish Independence.

I see Lisa Nandy is suggesting that the UK should follow the Catalonian example against Nationalists. [I assume she also means Welsh and Irish]
So Lisa should we now expect police brutality against Independence supporters and the jailing of their leaders.
I know Labour have given up on gaining any support in Scotland but supporting Spain's right wing fascist views and actions is not what I would have expected from them.


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## Captainron (Jan 16, 2020)

What you need to realise is that there is no desire for Scotland to be independent from the UK in the rest of the UK or indeed Europe. Scottish independence would give rise to more groups (Catalans in your example) pushing for independence and the EU would be splintered. 
This may change in time but there is no chance of this in the near future.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To those who do not support Independence please tell me, in your own words, what you would consider 'enough' for a mandate on Scottish Independence.

I see Lisa Nandy is suggesting that the UK should follow the Catalonian example against Nationalists. [I assume she also means Welsh and Irish]
So Lisa should we now expect police brutality against Independence supporters and the jailing of their leaders.
I know Labour have given up on gaining any support in Scotland but supporting Spain's right wing fascist views and actions is not what I would have expected from them.
		
Click to expand...

If I remember in 2014 the SNP got a chance for what they called a once in a lifetime vote for independence and the result was not what they expected, now they claim they have a right for another vote. Sorry you had your chance and please respect the choice of the people and get on with the day job now.


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## DRW (Jan 16, 2020)




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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2020)

The Lord Ashcroft poll in August had support for Scottish Independence at 47% whilst those against were 45%.
Narrow, but certainly spikes the 'no desire for Independence' guns.


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## KenL (Jan 16, 2020)

At 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you read what I posted...?

here's the last few words

_'the SNP has a mandate from the people of Scotland - that it is the Will of the People of Scotland - *to hold a referendum *- even if *all of that same SNP voting electorate *might not want, and so *won't actually vote for, independence. *_

Click to expand...

Did I quote what you wrote?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

KenL said:



			At

Did I quote what you wrote?
		
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I simply have said that the SNP in government have a mandate from the Scottish Electorate to request the right to hold a referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2020)

HankMarvin said:



			If I remember in 2014 the SNP got a chance for what they called a once in a lifetime vote for independence and the result was not what they expected, now they claim they have a right for another vote. Sorry you had your chance and please respect the choice of the people and *get on with the day job now.*

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I think you have been listening too much to 'The Gover' - it's as if the Scottish First Minister requesting the right to hold a referendum puts Scottish Government on hold - which is rather weird as you can watch broadcasts from Holyrood with the parliament in session, and can watch the Scottish First Minister Questions - both of which don't seem to have stopped - and so fit the description of getting on with the day job.

As it happens what *has* put Scottish government on hold in many areas is the Tory Government in Westminster faffing around and not having a budget - now not until March.  With no Westminster government budget the Scottish Government has a significantly less firm (I hesitate to say 'No' but that might be closer to the truth) basis upon which to make spending policy and plans.


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2020)

The BBC on "Once in a Lifetime" !! - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51120175 

I was amused by the various slants and spin being applied by the FM and her predecessor.

IMO independence for Scotland would be an economic mistake but what I find hard to understand is what they(SNP) expect the PM and UK government to do.  There is a lot of debate whether Scotland should receive/deserves more investment, particularly on infrastructure. The pay back on such investments are measured in decades, _IF_ there is a continual demand for a new referendum every 5/6 years until the SNP achieves (or seeks to maintain) its aim why would investors (UK Government or GOCO, COCO and PFI investors) bother while the uncertainty keeps cropping up?


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## KenL (Jan 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Lord Ashcroft poll in August had support for Scottish Independence at 47% whilst those against were 45%.
Narrow, but certainly spikes the 'no desire for Independence' guns.
		
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A one-off and just a poll.

5, yes only 5, years ago a vote that counts was held and it was decisive.

This taking out of Europe stance is just an excuse to bang on about having another go at independence.  Nobody actually believes the link to the EU is more beneficial to Scotland than the Union do they?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC on "Once in a Lifetime" !! - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51120175

I was amused by the various slants and spin being applied by the FM and her predecessor.

IMO independence for Scotland would be an economic mistake but what I find hard to understand is what they(SNP) expect the PM and UK government to do.  There is a lot of debate whether Scotland should receive/deserves more investment, particularly on infrastructure. The pay back on such investments are measured in decades, _IF_ there is a continual demand for a new referendum every 5/6 years until the SNP achieves (or seeks to maintain) its aim why would investors (UK Government or GOCO, COCO and PFI investors) bother while the uncertainty keeps cropping up?
		
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Yet you expect Scottish taxpayers to quietly pay up for UK infrastructures that benefit regions outwith of Scotland but are of absolutely no benefit to them. HS2 etc.
It is a two way thing you know.

Nobody coming up with any suggestions about what they would consider a mandate, just repeating the same old tired arguments.


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## azazel (Jan 16, 2020)

KenL said:



			A one-off and just a poll.

5, yes only 5, years ago a vote that counts was held and it was decisive.

This taking out of Europe stance is just an excuse to bang on about having another go at independence.  Nobody actually believes the link to the EU is more beneficial to Scotland than the Union do they?
		
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Aye but Boris is going to get a great trade deal with the EU, so when we're independent and back in the EU we'll have no issues trading with England so that's a non-starter.

If the Scottish people keep electing a majority of politicians to the Scottish parliament who support independence and/or a second referendum then it's illogical to suggest that people don't want another vote on it and shouldn't have it. The absolute nonsense about "less than 50% of people voted for the SNP so people don't want independence" needs to be binned as well, it's just an attempt to shut down the conversation.

If people in favour of the union really think that the majority are with them the why not support a referendum in return for the Scottish government agreeing to a minimum period before we can have another one? That way you'll win the referendum and the issue will go away for however many years. But neither Boris nor anyone else is really confident enough to do that, which says it all.


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## BrianM (Jan 16, 2020)

KenL said:



			A one-off and just a poll.

5, yes only 5, years ago a vote that counts was held and it was decisive.

This taking out of Europe stance is just an excuse to bang on about having another go at independence.  Nobody actually believes the link to the EU is more beneficial to Scotland than the Union do they?
		
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I don’t think people think that whatsoever, but leaving the EU ‘could’ be a massive mistake for Scotland and the UK, hence why in my opinion they are probably entitled to a second vote, I voted to stay in the UK and union but understand why people would want a vote if just to stay in the EU.
No one knows what the future holds, but maybe now is the time for Scotland to go it alone.


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## DRW (Jan 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yet you expect Scottish taxpayers to quietly pay up for UK infrastructures that benefit regions outwith of Scotland but are of absolutely no benefit to them. HS2 etc.
It is a two way thing you know.

Nobody coming up with any suggestions about what they would consider a mandate, just repeating the same old tired arguments.
		
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it already is a two way thing, suggest you read here, from your own governments website :-

https://www.gov.scot/publications/infrastructure-investment-plan-2015-progress-report-2018-19/

https://www.gov.scot/policies/government-finance/infrastructure-investment/#plan




_*Infrastructure*_ in _*Scotland*_ is funded by user charges, regulatory regimes, private sector, *UK Government *and local authorities as well as central _*Scottish*_ Government funds.
		
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Quite interesting and shows lots of wogga and projects undergoing/being spent and only post this to show both sides evenly, rather than the one sided arguments you put forward. What would be interesting if you compare how much is spent on infrastructure per head in Scotland to the UK, failing that will google later, as interested to educate myself, as I certainly wouldn't wish to see any part of the country in the UK short changed as such.

Mandate, easy for me, wait until the EU deal is done and see how things unfold, say 5 years afterwards the deal and revote.


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## Grant85 (Jan 16, 2020)

I actually think the current Tory stance is absolutely mad. 

I think as the months and years pass with this anti-democratic line, it is inevitable that support for independence will grow and when a 2nd vote does come it will be a much easier campaign for the Yes side and the No side arguments of 2014 will be much harder to make. 

Ultimately the SNP are benefiting electorally from being pro-indy and I think they are only going to keep recording big victories which will keep this on the agenda and keep forcing the UK Gov to say no. Another vote would genuinely settle the issue and a second defeat would take a lot of wind out of the sails of the Yes movement. As happened in Quebec. 

The political calculation the Tories are making is a very poor one imo and guaranteed to entrench the SNP in power as well as continue keeping indy on the political agenda. 

But in reality, not sure what the SNP do from here. Obviously next years Scottish election will be a further test of opinion, and as things stand I think Yes parties will return a large majority with SNP and Greens making gains. Also don't believe we have had an Independence poll since prior to the GE and would not be surprised to see Yes building and holding a meaningful lead for the 1st time now. 

Possibly a legal challenge is on the cards, but I would be amazed if that got very far. It is clear that the constitution is a reserved matter and barring the UK Gov making a total mess of their legal representation, a Scottish or UK court would be taking a big step to reverse that position.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 16, 2020)

The longer the SNP bleat on for another independence vote the worse their already failing policies will continue to hurt the country and this will lead to a change on how people vote in the next few years. Time for the SNP to concentrate on running the country rather than dividing Scotland let alone the UK .


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## Captainron (Jan 16, 2020)

HankMarvin said:



			The longer the SNP bleat on for another independence vote the worse their already failing policies will continue to hurt the country and this will lead to and change on how people vote in the next few years. Time for the SNP to concentrate on running the country rather than dividing Scotland let alone the UK .
		
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But it is all they have to keep the voters hooked.


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## toyboy54 (Jan 16, 2020)

Captainron said:



			But it is all they have to keep the voters hooked.
		
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I voted for MsKrankie but only because I would never vote for the CON mob and I'm just so disillusioned with Labour.
But she really needs to concentrate on schools,roads,job creation,the economy and more importantly THE COMPLETE SHAMBLES that is the N.H.S. up here.
(just watched yet another report on the news about the tragic death of an 11y.o.girl caused by the total incompetence/self preservation/denial of any wrongdoing(caused by reported faults in various depts. infrastructure of the Billion £ Superhospital farce in Glasgow)  of the very highly paid management.
Absolutely shocking and hard to watch.....This is not the only case of patient death in this place due to all the flaws in design/equipment flaws/poor installation/standard of construction.
If my late old man had been the Clerk Of Works on this project,then it wouldn't have opened until every single aspect of the building was 110% super correct.
So who the hell signed it off as being fit for purpose??Was there some form of inducements(holidays/cars for the family/nice little cash advance to the pension fund)being offered?Because there are so many things coming out about this 'Superhospital' and these faults have been known for years-ever since it opened

This is just so indicatave of what is going wrong in this country(amongst many)under her watch.
SHE REALLY NEEDS TO GET A GRIP OF WHAT REALLY MATTERS TO US PLEBS and forget this Independence crap because she's proving to one and all that she couldn't run a piss up in a brewery!
Jimbo


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## Slab (Jan 17, 2020)

toyboy54 said:



			I voted for MsKrankie but only because I would never vote for the CON mob and I'm just so disillusioned with Labour.
*But she really needs to concentrate on schools,roads,job creation,the economy and more importantly THE COMPLETE SHAMBLES that is the N.H.S. up here.*
(just watched yet another report on the news about the tragic death of an 11y.o.girl caused by the total incompetence/self preservation/denial of any wrongdoing(caused by reported faults in various depts. infrastructure of the Billion £ Superhospital farce in Glasgow)  of the very highly paid management.
Absolutely shocking and hard to watch.....This is not the only case of patient death in this place due to all the flaws in design/equipment flaws/poor installation/standard of construction.
If my late old man had been the Clerk Of Works on this project,then it wouldn't have opened until every single aspect of the building was 110% super correct.
So who the hell signed it off as being fit for purpose??Was there some form of inducements(holidays/cars for the family/nice little cash advance to the pension fund)being offered?Because there are so many things coming out about this 'Superhospital' and these faults have been known for years-ever since it opened

This is just so indicatave of what is going wrong in this country(amongst many)under her watch.
*SHE REALLY NEEDS TO GET A GRIP OF WHAT REALLY MATTERS TO US PLEBS and forget this Independence crap* because she's proving to one and all that she couldn't run a piss up in a brewery!
Jimbo
		
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i'm probably well out of touch here but outside of the (fully expected even predictable) request she made on/around Dec 13th for 2nd referendum immediately after the GE (which took the PM a month to answer) what discussion/initiatives has she actually initiated regarding independence in recent weeks/months?

Leaving aside whether its a good/bad job what is it she's done to make you think she isn't focused on managing the country and is instead plotting independence for 8 hours every day?


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## KenL (Jan 17, 2020)

toyboy54 said:



			I voted for MsKrankie but only because I would never vote for the CON mob and I'm just so disillusioned with Labour.
But she really needs to concentrate on schools,roads,job creation,the economy and more importantly THE COMPLETE SHAMBLES that is the N.H.S. up here.
(just watched yet another report on the news about the tragic death of an 11y.o.girl caused by the total incompetence/self preservation/denial of any wrongdoing(caused by reported faults in various depts. infrastructure of the Billion £ Superhospital farce in Glasgow)  of the very highly paid management.
Absolutely shocking and hard to watch.....This is not the only case of patient death in this place due to all the flaws in design/equipment flaws/poor installation/standard of construction.
If my late old man had been the Clerk Of Works on this project,then it wouldn't have opened until every single aspect of the building was 110% super correct.
So who the hell signed it off as being fit for purpose??Was there some form of inducements(holidays/cars for the family/nice little cash advance to the pension fund)being offered?Because there are so many things coming out about this 'Superhospital' and these faults have been known for years-ever since it opened

This is just so indicatave of what is going wrong in this country(amongst many)under her watch.
SHE REALLY NEEDS TO GET A GRIP OF WHAT REALLY MATTERS TO US PLEBS and forget this Independence crap because she's proving to one and all that she couldn't run a piss up in a brewery!
Jimbo
		
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I agree with most of what you said but how you could vote for SNP in the recent election when you have a good understanding of their failing is beyond belief!

There is also another new childrens hospital that cant even be opened due to design faults in the ventilation. 

Another beauty of theirs is the higher taxes charged for everyone earning just £26k.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2020)

toyboy54 said:



			I voted for MsKrankie but only because I would never vote for the CON mob and I'm just so disillusioned with Labour.
But she really needs to concentrate on schools,roads,job creation,the economy and more importantly THE COMPLETE SHAMBLES that is the N.H.S. up here.
(just watched yet another report on the news about the tragic death of an 11y.o.girl caused by the total incompetence/self preservation/denial of any wrongdoing(caused by reported faults in various depts. infrastructure of the Billion £ Superhospital farce in Glasgow)  of the very highly paid management.
Absolutely shocking and hard to watch.....This is not the only case of patient death in this place due to all the flaws in design/equipment flaws/poor installation/standard of construction.
If my late old man had been the Clerk Of Works on this project,then it wouldn't have opened until every single aspect of the building was 110% super correct.
So who the hell signed it off as being fit for purpose??Was there some form of inducements(holidays/cars for the family/nice little cash advance to the pension fund)being offered?Because there are so many things coming out about this 'Superhospital' and these faults have been known for years-ever since it opened

This is just so indicatave of what is going wrong in this country(amongst many)under her watch.
SHE REALLY NEEDS TO GET A GRIP OF WHAT REALLY MATTERS TO US PLEBS and forget this Independence crap because she's proving to one and all that she couldn't run a piss up in a brewery!
Jimbo
		
Click to expand...

I can understand why people vote SNP, ignoring the independence issue for a second. Their socialist policies are admirable. But are they affordable? No. And then you hear the ”yes but” denials. Utterly laughable. Wake up and smell the coffee. 

The Scottish NHS; I worked with many Trusts from the mid 90’s. Scottish hospitals were a shining beacon back then. I would take policies and work practices back to England and say to various Trust, “have you thought about,” or “have you spoken to...” In the last 5 years... oh please, wake up and smell the coffee. And again you hear the “yes but” denials.

Great social policies, but badly managed fiscally and operationally. Would the other parties be better? Who knows but a protest vote against the SNP might shake them up a bit.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 17, 2020)

Not sure how you can blame the first minister for the failings of the NHS, it was them that signed off on the hospital it was them that appointed the contracts for the water/maintenance supply etc. 

Never heard of Boris having to go round new builds hospitals in England with his clip board signing off at every stage of the build. I've never heard of Boris managing the water contract and ensuring that the maintenance is done on time and ensuring the results were as required. 

Failings and fiscal policies run far deeper than the SNP they run right down to the doors of Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

KenL said:



			I agree with most of what you said but how you could vote for SNP in the recent election when you have a good understanding of their failing is beyond belief!

There is also another new childrens hospital that cant even be opened due to design faults in the ventilation.

Another beauty of theirs is the higher taxes charged for everyone earning just £26k.
		
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Why did you not mention the lower taxes available to the poorest in our society, surely that is more important than the well off paying a couple of quid more.
It really makes me mad when I see Johnstone /Corbyn and their cronies saying that Scotland has the highest rate of taxes in the UK without also saying it also has the lowest.
They are following the 'economical with the truth' route of disrespected politicians.

Still no answers to the 'what would you call a mandate' question I posed. Except suffer another 5 years of economic misery with a Tory government then and wait and see.
If the Scottish polls showed a consistent  52% in favour of Independence do you think that should be enough to take back control, give us back our country.

https://listentotaxman.com/uk-tax/tax-guides/tax-differences-between-scotland-and-england.html
Scottish tax rates for those of us who are interested in the truth and not the Daily Express headlines


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## DRW (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Why did you not mention the lower taxes available to the poorest in our society, surely that is more important than the well off paying a couple of quid more.
It really makes me mad when I see Johnstone /Corbyn and their cronies saying that Scotland has the highest rate of taxes in the UK without also saying it also has the lowest.
They are following the 'economical with the truth' route of disrespected politicians.*

Still no answers to the 'what would you call a mandate' question I posed. Except suffer another 5 years of economic misery with a Tory government then and wait and see.
If the Scottish polls showed a consistent  52% in favour of Independence do you think that should be enough to take back control, give us back our country.

https://listentotaxman.com/uk-tax/tax-guides/tax-differences-between-scotland-and-england.html
Scottish tax rates for those of us who are interested in the truth and not the Daily Express headlines
		
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Yet you are more guilty of that, here and before.

To put it into context, the lower paid are *LESS than a MAXIMUM of 40p per week better off*. That doesn't even buy you a pound of spuds at most places.

Compare that to you are saying 'well off paying a couple of quid more', when that is more than likely to actually mean paying much more than a couple of pounds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why did you not mention the lower taxes available to the poorest in our society, surely that is more important than the well off paying a couple of quid more.
It really makes me mad when I see Johnstone /Corbyn and their cronies saying that Scotland has the highest rate of taxes in the UK without also saying it also has the lowest.
They are following the 'economical with the truth' route of disrespected politicians.

Still no answers to the 'what would you call a mandate' question I posed. Except suffer another 5 years of economic misery with a Tory government then and wait and see.
*If the Scottish polls showed a consistent  52% in favour of Independence *do you think that should be enough to take back control, give us back our country.

https://listentotaxman.com/uk-tax/tax-guides/tax-differences-between-scotland-and-england.html
Scottish tax rates for those of us who are interested in the truth and not the Daily Express headlines
		
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When has that happened - and it’s also just a poll

Can you remember the result of the actual vote

Also can you confirm the meaning of “once in a generation “ ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

DRW said:



			Yet you are more guilty of that, here and before.

To put it into context, the lower paid are *LESS than a MAXIMUM of 40p per week better off*. That doesn't even buy you a pound of spuds at most places.

Compare that to you are saying 'well off paying a couple of quid more', when that is more than likely to actually mean paying much more than a couple of pounds.
		
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If you are in poverty every penny counts.
For a person who counts his pennies I am surprised you did not point out the incorrect upper limit tax level posted  on here, It is £43k not £26k


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When has that happened - and it’s also just a poll

Can you remember the result of the actual vote

Also can you confirm the meaning of “once in a generation “ ?
		
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I am asking what people opposed to Scottish Independence would consider to be a mandate for Independence and was giving that as an example.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 17, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When has that happened - and it’s also just a poll

Can you remember the result of the actual vote

Also can you confirm the meaning of “once in a generation “ ?
		
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The SNP fail to accept that in their own understanding and request  back in 2014 that a once in a generation vote is what they wanted and it's what they got but they keep bleating for another vote as the result was not what they wanted. How many times will they continue to disrespect the request/outcome of the vote from the Scottish people. They are in power to act on behalf of the people of Scotland and the majority of scotland want to remain in the UK.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am asking what people opposed to Scottish Independence would consider to be a mandate for Independence and was giving that as an example.
		
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Scotland voted back in 2014 it's that simple we wanted to remain.

Accept it and move on


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## DRW (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are in poverty every penny counts.
For a person who counts his pennies I am surprised you did not point out the incorrect upper limit tax level posted  on here, It is £43k not £26k
		
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I never said, every penny doesn't count to the poorest. Every penny counts to everyone.

I think you believe I am a EU hating, middle England Tory, and you are so wrong. When have I said I count or don't count his pennies also.

Personally, I would like to see the personal allowance at nearer £15,000 and that would benefit the poorest workers by £500 a year. I would also ensure above a certain earnings level, that is reversed. Now that is something to be proud of and shout in the forum about, and will really help the poorest workers, rather than a policy that doesn't even buy you a pound of spuds. Get real.

You missed the whole point of my post tho. Whoosh....

Your posts are so biased and are guilty of what you say that others do. Your post was* 'economical with the truth' *to quote you. Do unto others as you expect done to yourself.


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## Wolf (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am asking what people opposed to Scottish Independence would consider to be a mandate for Independence and was giving that as an example.
		
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There isn't a mandate nor will there be one because in the words of your own first minister this was a once in a generation vote.  Im happy for Scotland to leave had they won the vote, I wanted to remain in the EU but I lost on that vote as a voting democracy we have to accept and move forwards. 

Oh and the irony of your previous post complaining nobody had answered you 😂 little taste of your own medicine there..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			There isn't a mandate nor will there be one because *in the words of your own first minister* this was a once in a generation vote.  Im happy for Scotland to leave had they won the vote, I wanted to remain in the EU but I lost on that vote as a voting democracy we have to accept and move forwards.

Oh and the irony of your previous post complaining nobody had answered you 😂 little taste of your own medicine there..
		
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Was that not AS?  I do believe BJ is in the process - and has been for some months now - of rubbishing;, criticising as wrong, and contradicting a lot of what the previous *Tory *PM and government said and did.

Do we expect current governments to hold to the every word uttered by previous governments?  I think not.  We expect them to act in the best interests of the country and if we feel that they do not then we choose to vote for someone else at the next opportunity.  And so if the Scottish electorate are sick of the First Minister 'whanging on' about the right to have a second referendum, and having a mandate to do so, then they will stick their fingers up to her and not vote SNP at the next Holyrood or Westminster election.

The Scottish electorate know what the First Minister and the SNP are about - the SNP are not new.  The electorate will stop voting for the SNP if and when they become fed up with them.  Meanwhile as, and for as long as, they continue to be successful in holding their vote, the SNP will continue to do what they are currently doing - that being the expressed will of the people.


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## Wolf (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was that not AS?  I do believe BJ is in the process - and has been for some months now - of rubbishing;, criticising as wrong, and contradicting a lot of what the previous *Tory *PM and government said and did.

Do we expect current governments to hold to the every word uttered by previous governments?  I think not.  We expect them to act in the best interests of the country and if we feel that they do not then we choose to vote for someone else at the next opportunity.  And so if the Scottish electorate are sick of the First Minister 'whanging on' about the right to have a second referendum, and having a mandate to do so, then they will stick their fingers up to her and not vote SNP at the next Holyrood or Westminster election.

The Scottish electorate know what the First Minister and the SNP are about - the SNP are not new.  The electorate will stop voting for the SNP if and when they become fed up with them.  Meanwhile as, and for as long as, they continue to be successful in holding their vote, the SNP will continue to do what they are currently doing - that being the expressed will of the people.
		
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Scroll back up the thread and there's a canny wee video showing Sturgeon saying the exact same words which shows she should be true to  that word to.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Scroll back up the thread and there's a canny wee video showing Sturgeon saying the exact same words which shows she should be true to  that word to.
		
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Was she First Minister at the time? 

Anyway - if the Scottish electorate view that and consider that what she is doing and saying as being hypocritical, unacceptable or whatever, then they will *choose to not vote for her and her party.*  But as recent (or not) as that video might be, it is not as recent as the December 2019 General Election or the last Holyrood election - in which the Scottish electorate expressed their continuing support for the FM and the SNP.  And they KNEW what they were voting vote.


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## HankMarvin (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was she First Minister at the time? 

Anyway - if the Scottish electorate view that and consider that what she is doing and saying as being hypocritical, unacceptable or whatever, then they will *choose to not vote for her and her party.*  But as recent (or not) as that video might be, it is not as recent as the December 2019 General Election or the last Holyrood election - in which the Scottish electorate expressed their continuing support for the FM and the SNP.  And they KNEW what they were voting vote.
		
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Yes and it wasnt a second referendum they voted for.


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## Wolf (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was she First Minister at the time?

Anyway - if the Scottish electorate view that and consider that what she is doing and saying as being hypocritical, unacceptable or whatever, then they will *choose to not vote for her and her party.*  But as recent (or not) as that video might be, it is not as recent as the December 2019 General Election or the last Holyrood election - in which the Scottish electorate expressed their continuing support for the FM and the SNP.  And they KNEW what they were voting vote.
		
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Now you're just talking rubbish. So you think its OK for an MP to go in record and state they believe this is a once in a generation vote but change their mind once they get power and bleating on and on because they didn't like the result. 

As for voting SNP the GE this time around muddied the waters of true voting representation. Many voted SNP because they refused to vote Boris or Corbyn that is evident on this forum alone and even in this thread. 

I voted to remain in the EU, I lost but even had another government come in like Sturgeon saying we don't like that lets vote again I'd feel let down bevause regardless of the outcome you have to stick to what has democratically been voted for. I have said before I am pro independence if that's what Scotland wanted they voted and they didn't want it. What's the point in a once in a generation vote if you're going to not accept a democratic vote and keep asking every year for another one at the cost of the people.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Now you're just talking rubbish. *So you think its OK for an MP to go in record and state they believe this is a once in a generation vote but change their mind once they get power and bleating on and on because they didn't like the result.*

As for voting SNP the GE this time around muddied the waters of true voting representation. Many voted SNP because they refused to vote Boris or Corbyn that is evident on this forum alone and even in this thread.

I voted to remain in the EU, I lost but even had another government come in like Sturgeon saying we don't like that lets vote again I'd feel let down bevause regardless of the outcome you have to stick to what has democratically been voted for. I have said before I am pro independence if that's what Scotland wanted they voted and they didn't want it. What's the point in a once in a generation vote if you're going to not accept a democratic vote and keep asking every year for another one at the cost of the people.
		
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I'd suggest that there is huge irony in that considering the Brexit farce and lets be honest when has an MP not changed their mind/stance when things don't go as expected. Hardly a trait reserved only for the SNP!


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## Wolf (Jan 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd suggest that there is huge irony in that considering the Brexit farce and lets be honest when has an MP not changed their mind/stance when things don't go as expected. Hardly a trait reserved only for the SNP!
		
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Never said it was reserved for SNP did I 🤔.. So there is no irony there at all.. 

I was asking a poster that often moans other MPs are only interested in their own agenda changing their minds to suit why he thinks its ok for Sturgeon to do so.. Bit of a double standard to say its ok for someone he likes to do so but not others... Personally anyone going on record with a view they will honour something but changing their mind because they don't get their own way is in my opinion not good for anyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd suggest that there is huge irony in that considering the Brexit farce and lets be honest when has an MP not changed their mind/stance when things don't go as expected. Hardly a trait reserved only for the SNP!
		
Click to expand...

Aye - I'm was checking every ditch in the vicinity of the HoP looking for our current PM.  Unfortunately he is to found in the HoC.

In any case - sufficient of the Scottish electorate have clearly decided that what the First Minister said or didn't say back in the day when she wasn't FM is actually now water under the bridge, as they have given her and her party mandate after mandate by their voice expressed through the polling booth.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye - I'm was checking every ditch in the vicinity of the HoP looking for our current PM.  Unfortunately he is to found in the HoC.

In any case - sufficient of the Scottish electorate have clearly decided that what the First Minister said or didn't say back in the day when she wasn't FM is actually now water under the bridge, as they have given her and her party mandate after mandate by their voice expressed through the polling booth.
		
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nice to know that you think its unfortunate that Boris isn't dead


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## HankMarvin (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye - I'm was checking every ditch in the vicinity of the HoP looking for our current PM.  Unfortunately he is to found in the HoC.

In any case - sufficient of the Scottish electorate have clearly decided that what the First Minister said or didn't say back in the day when she wasn't FM is actually now water under the bridge, as they have given her and her party mandate after mandate by their voice expressed through the polling booth.
		
Click to expand...

Have I missed another vote for independence, I don’t know of any such thing where there has been support for another referendum in any recent poll


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## Farneyman (Jan 17, 2020)

I remember when I was in school bringing stuff in to send in shoe boxes to children in Africa....

Now its getting kids to bring stuff in for food banks so we can help people/families in the local community.

Sad sad state of affairs and ALL politicians should be ashamed of themselves. Aslong as the rich keep gettin rich we are going to continue having kids come to school every morrning without breakfast

 Could an Independant Scotland improve this... the current set up certainly isnt working


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye - I'm was checking every ditch in the vicinity of the HoP looking for our current PM.  Unfortunately he is to found in the HoC.

In any case - sufficient of the Scottish electorate have clearly decided that what the First Minister said or didn't say back in the day when she wasn't FM is actually now water under the bridge, as they have given her and her party mandate after mandate by their voice expressed through the polling booth.
		
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Not forgetting that Johnson called the 2019 Election 'a once in a generation' vote.
I still think we shall have another GE in 5 years time despite his 'once in a generation' call.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not forgetting that Johnson called the 2019 Election 'a once in a generation' vote.
I still think we shall have another GE in 5 years time despite his 'once in a generation' call.

Click to expand...

You should do stand up


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## toyboy54 (Jan 17, 2020)

SILH-re post 978-I most certainly have not given them my vote to be used generate another referendum!This was pointed out quite forcibily  to the local candidate when I met him in by chance as it happens-in the local shopping mall.
He was told to get on with the essentials that joe public want sorted out as they keep (empty?)promising and that 2014 has gone/deid/defunct and what was he going to do if he went to Holyrood?
Surprise surprise-said he would make it a priority as they had let things slip(but guess what?IT WAS'NT THEIR FAULT AS THE BIG BAD BOYS IN LONDON WERE STRANGLING THEIR FUNDS)
Told him he was a KNOB and THAT WOULD'NT WASH ANYMORE the reason myself and a swathe of others were going for them as the Labour alternative was Corbyn and the CONPARTY were a no-no!!!!
Know this is in the wrong section but is anyone watching Sky Arts-Rolling Stones Totally Stripped....just brilliant!!!!
Jimbo


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2020)

toyboy54 said:



			SILH-re post 978-I most certainly have not given them my vote to be used generate another referendum!This was pointed out quite forcibily  to the local candidate when I met him in by chance as it happens-in the local shopping mall.
He was told to get on with the essentials that joe public want sorted out as they keep (empty?)promising and that 2014 has gone/deid/defunct and what was he going to do if he went to Holyrood?
Surprise surprise-said he would make it a priority as they had let things slip(but guess what?IT WAS'NT THEIR FAULT AS THE BIG BAD BOYS IN LONDON WERE STRANGLING THEIR FUNDS)
Told him he was a KNOB and THAT WOULD'NT WASH ANYMORE the reason myself and a swathe of others were going for them as the Labour alternative was Corbyn and the CONPARTY were a no-no!!!!
Know this is in the wrong section but is anyone watching Sky Arts-Rolling Stones Totally Stripped....just brilliant!!!!
Jimbo
		
Click to expand...

If you don’t support the basic objectives of the SNP in respect of independence and don’t wish your vote to be interpreted as at least tacit support for some of these objectives - even if that’s the right to choose to hold a referendum that you would vote NO in - then don’t vote for them.  However if you choose them before the rest to govern you can see the logic perhaps for their calling for the right to hold a referendum.  Your opposition is to independence - you will vote NO. If your view is in the majority then no independence.


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you don’t support the basic objectives of the SNP in respect of independence and don’t wish your vote to be interpreted as at least tacit support for some of these objectives - even if that’s the right to choose to hold a referendum that you would vote NO in - then don’t vote for them.  However if you choose them before the rest to govern you can see the logic perhaps for their calling for the right to hold a referendum.  Your opposition is to independence - you will vote NO. If your view is in the majority then no independence.
		
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As luck would have it Boris has saved him all that worry!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2020)

chrisd said:



			As luck would have it Boris has saved him all that worry!
		
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Indeed he is and he is gambling that brexit will be positive and so will reduce what demand there is in Scotland for an independence referendum. Bit of a gamble though as meanwhile some of the Scots electorate who are sitting on the fence might actually start to move to supporting independence never mind the right of the Scottish government to call a referendum on it.  But he’s prime minister.  In Boris we trust - don’t we?


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			t.  But he’s prime minister.  In Boris we trust - don’t we?
		
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Indeed we do 👍👍


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## KenL (Jan 18, 2020)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ferendum-Nicola-sturgeon-john-curtice-warning

Someone who actually knows what they are talking about.  #nomandate


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## HankMarvin (Jan 18, 2020)

KenL said:



https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ferendum-Nicola-sturgeon-john-curtice-warning

Someone who actually knows what they are talking about.  #nomandate
		
Click to expand...

Good read and from from where I am sitting he is correct. Trouble is the SNP will rubbish the report as they continue to split both Scotland and the UK to try and get what they want. Things have not changed as far back as I can remember when I was a kid and the result in 2014 was no shock but they wont listen sadly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2020)

KenL said:



https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ferendum-Nicola-sturgeon-john-curtice-warning

Someone who actually knows what they are talking about.  #nomandate
		
Click to expand...

But surely by applying the same logic to Westminster, though a government may be elected with a majority of - say - 87, the fact that the election was FPtP means that there is no electoral mandate for any policy the government may have espoused in it's manifesto as it does not command a majority of the votes cast.


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## KenL (Jan 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But surely by applying the same logic to Westminster, though a government may be elected with a majority of - say - 87, the fact that the election was FPtP means that there is no electoral mandate for any policy the government may have espoused in it's manifesto as it does not command a majority of the votes cast.
		
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Any chance we could have that written in plain English? ;-)


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## toyboy54 (Jan 20, 2020)

KenL said:



			Any chance we could have that written in plain English? ;-)
		
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KenL..No use asking me to try that as I witter on and really need to learn to be more 'to the point'as nearly all on here can do so succinctly!
(probably on the wrong forum again but did anyone watch Sky Arts Saturday showing blues/soul birth of Stax records amongst others(Allman Bros.)
Jimbo(gasbag)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2020)

KenL said:



			Any chance we could have that written in plain English? ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Quoting from the article

_Professor Curtis said using the number of seats to claim a mandate does not take into account the effect of the first past the post system, and how it calculates seats from votes._

And so an 87 seat majority does not give a mandate for any policy in that parties manifesto? That polls on specific issues taken during the election period are more of a pointer towards a mandate or otherwise.  Really?


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But surely by applying the same logic to Westminster, though a government may be elected with a majority of - say - 87, the fact that the election was FPtP means that there is no electoral mandate for any policy the government may have espoused in it's manifesto as it does not command a majority of the votes cast.
		
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I get it that you're suggesting that "first past the post" isn't a democratic winning position given that you haven't accepted a straight forward democratic referendum vote for the last 4 years. If you don't get the result you want ..................


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## Leftie (Jan 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quoting from the article

_Professor Curtis said using the number of seats to claim a mandate does not take into account the effect of the first past the post system, and how it calculates seats from votes._

And so an 87 seat majority does not give a mandate for any policy in that parties manifesto? That polls on specific issues taken during the election period are more of a pointer towards a mandate or otherwise.  Really?
		
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Ah!  Sir John Curt*ice*  (just so we know of whom we talk).  The (often) reasonably good predictor of election results who got it so wrong in the 2019 election.  Just like so many others - making a name for himself with wild predictions and spurious comments.

Bit like some on here methinks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2020)

Leftie said:



			Ah!  Sir John Curt*ice*  (just so we know of whom we talk).  The (often) reasonably good predictor of election results who got it so wrong in the 2019 election.  Just like so many others - making a name for himself with wild predictions and spurious comments.

Bit like some on here methinks 

Click to expand...

So you dismiss what he says about the SNP and the Scottish First Minister holding a mistaken belief about having a mandate following the last GE? That was the point of the article - that the Scottish First Minister is mistaken.


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## Leftie (Jan 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you dismiss what he says about the SNP and the Scottish First Minister holding a mistaken belief about having a mandate following the last GE? That was the point of the article - that the Scottish First Minister is mistaken.
		
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I hold no opinion on that as I do not profess to know enough (or really care) about the subject.  I was merely suggesting that even as a perceived expert he has got things rather wrong in recent times.  Read into that whatever you will.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 27, 2020)

ouch


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221831582929104896


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			ouch


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221831582929104896

Click to expand...

Do you know where England and Wales are on the table.
Asking for a friend


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## azazel (Jan 27, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			ouch


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221831582929104896

Click to expand...

Another great advert for staying in the union then...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you know where England and Wales are on the table.
Asking for a friend

Click to expand...

Still waiting...……....I saw somewhere that of the 4 home nations Scotland were the highest ranked.
Can anyone confirm this

https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/wellbeing-index-the-truth-they-wont-tell-you/.
OOPs………….By country...……..Scotland is highest ranked, thanks for the shout out Mr Neil.


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## Imurg (Jan 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still waiting...……....I saw somewhere that of the 4 home nations Scotland were the highest ranked.
Can anyone confirm this

https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/wellbeing-index-the-truth-they-wont-tell-you/.
OOPs………….By country...……..Scotland is highest ranked, thanks for the shout out Mr Neil.

Click to expand...

Point missed.
Who mentioned any of the other home nations? 
Theres no brag that England is better or Wales is worse or whatever.
Just a simple, correct statement regarding Scotlands place on the list.
Aren't you concerned that Scotland has fallen down the list?
Or dont you care, just as long as you're above England? 
Asking for a friend


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Point missed.
Who mentioned any of the other home nations?
Theres no brag that England is better or Wales is worse or whatever.
Just a simple, correct statement regarding Scotlands place on the list.
Aren't you concerned that Scotland has fallen down the list?
Or dont you care, just as long as you're above England?
Asking for a friend
		
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Another anti Scotland piece by Andrew Neil...……..he does have a lot of history you know.
Why did he not mention the other UK regions/countries.
I am concerned about the poor performance of the UK as a whole, aren't you? .......we do not seem to be doing well in the 'quality of life' standards compared to other nations.


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## Imurg (Jan 28, 2020)

Because it was about Scotland's fall.
Not the UK
Not England
You're the one who bought up where the rest are in the list.
If you're so concerned about how the UK is doing then maybe you shouldn't be smirking about others performance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

I see that whilst average levels of alcohol consumption (and alcohol related disease) is still higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK - the Scottish Governments minimum unit pricing policy does seem to be having some significant effect in reducing overall levels of consumption.  Sales of strong cider sales especially well down due to significant unit price increase - though tellingly sales of fortified wine where there was no increase in cost due to unit minimum pricing, go up.

So not all bad from the Scottish Government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51269004


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Because it was about Scotland's fall.
Not the UK
Not England
You're the one who bought up where the rest are in the list.
If you're so concerned about how the UK is doing then maybe you shouldn't be smirking about others performance.
		
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So why did Neil pick out Scotland for criticism and not highlight the poorer performing UK nations/regions. I take it he had the full information/facts.
That makes no sense other than his obvious well trodden path.


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## Imurg (Jan 28, 2020)

He didn't 

He's reporting on figures published recently 
He's quoting the people who delivered the figures.
Are there figures that refer to the rest of the UK? Does he have them? Ask him...
I dont know and there's plenty of things I'd rather do than search them out - feel free if you want.

Why do you try and deflect every criticism of Scotland, justified or not..?
Why not accept that there are shortcomings in the Scottish government  and focus a bit on that rather than going down the " we're better than you are" route..?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			He didn't

He's reporting on figures published recently
He's quoting the people who delivered the figures.
Are there figures that refer to the rest of the UK? Does he have them? Ask him...
I dont know and there's plenty of things I'd rather do than search them out - feel free if you want.

Why do you try and deflect every criticism of Scotland, justified or not..?
Why not accept that there are shortcomings in the Scottish government  and focus a bit on that rather than going down the " we're better than you are" route..?
		
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What you say is true but there is often little said to put the performance of the Scottish Government on any aspect of service provision in context of equivalent performance rUK - it's often reported in isolation - though of course comparisons with previous performance is relevant.  

Further whilst it is true that in some areas the performance of such as NHS Scotland in some aspects of service provision and healthcare might be poorer than rUK - it is important to understand the context of Scottish culture.  In that way many stats for performance of NHS Scotland have to be looked at in the context of historical and to a large extent ongoing cultures of terrible Scottish diet and alcohol (moving to drug) intake in a large percentage of the Scottish population.

(I can hardly believe - but I know as true - that as a child when we got salad on our plate we'd sprinkle sugar on the lettuce!)


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## spongebob59 (Jan 29, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222580403849940992


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222580403849940992

Click to expand...

Excellent news.....silly decision by the Presiding officer to order it's removal. Following Westminster protocol indeed.

Not sure if you guys should be shooting yourselves in the foot by starting comments about Flegs. 
You should be focussing on bongs and 50ps.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Have they been telling porkies...

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/#more-114013


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			Have they been telling porkies...

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/#more-114013

Click to expand...

I thought it was a well written and thought provoking piece. Here's a thought; has the SNP (subtly, subconsciously) sacrificed its fundamental reason for existence on the desire to chase dominance in Holyrood? I just got a picture of Corbyn's ideallogical chase for something at the expense of where Labour, fundimentaly, should be.

I've not thought it through, just throwing it out there... thoughts??


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2020)

There has always been a more militant hard core group of Independence supporters who think the SNP are taking the soft options.
I do not agree with them and think Nicola is taking the correct road. The Tory party cannot forever hold Scotland prisoner within a dysfunctional UK.

Johnson and Scots Tories are taking every opportunity to talk Scotland down, can anyone quote a positive thing/action he has said about Scotland within the UK.
The whole Scots Tory agenda at the last election was to stop Indyref2. This cost them half of there seats, yet they still carry on spouting the same guff.
It is inevitable that Scotland will become an Independent country. At the moment it is only the elderly and right wing Unionists that are holding them back.

I see the Unison trade union is now supporting Scotland's right hold Indyref2. Quite a shift from the former bastion of Labour support, they have obviously came to the conclusion that you cannot ignore the wishes of over 60% of their membership and hope to survive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There has always been a more militant hard core group of Independence supporters who think the SNP are taking the soft options.
I do not agree with them and think Nicola is taking the correct road. The Tory party cannot forever hold Scotland prisoner within a dysfunctional UK.

Johnson and Scots Tories are taking every opportunity to talk Scotland down, can anyone quote a positive thing/action he has said about Scotland within the UK.
The whole Scots Tory agenda at the last election was to stop Indyref2. This cost them half of there seats, yet they still carry on spouting the same guff.
It is inevitable that Scotland will become an Independent country. At the moment it is only the elderly and right wing Unionists that are holding them back.

I see the Unison trade union is now supporting Scotland's right hold Indyref2. Quite a shift from the former bastion of Labour support, they have obviously came to the conclusion that you cannot ignore the wishes of over 60% of their membership and hope to survive.
		
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I watched Sturgeon’s recent interview which has her asking the hard core to have patience...that the time must be right and that any referendum has to be legal.  Now you can easily say that that chimes with the Rev’s criticism of the SNP and Sturgeon - or that it smacks of realism and pragmatism...


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## User62651 (Feb 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There has always been a more militant hard core group of Independence supporters who think the SNP are taking the soft options.
I do not agree with them and think Nicola is taking the correct road. The Tory party cannot forever hold Scotland prisoner within a dysfunctional UK.

Johnson and Scots Tories are taking every opportunity to talk Scotland down, can anyone quote a positive thing/action he has said about Scotland within the UK.
The whole Scots Tory agenda at the last election was to stop Indyref2. This cost them half of there seats, yet they still carry on spouting the same guff.
It is *inevitable *that Scotland will become an Independent country. At the moment it is only the elderly and right wing Unionists that are holding them back.

I see the Unison trade union is now supporting Scotland's right hold Indyref2. Quite a shift from the former bastion of Labour support, they have obviously came to the conclusion that you cannot ignore the wishes of over 60% of their membership and hope to survive.
		
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Not sure about inevitability or reason for lost seats, the Davidson effect was very strong in 2017 and pretty much absent in 2019 which imo is a big reason they lost seats. Also May or Cameron were nothing like as toxic to Scots as Johnson is, another factor. ScotTories are faceless under Carlaw. Like her or not Davidson was/is a big factor in Scottish voting. They had 1 MP In 2015 so they're still well up on that with 6 or 7 (cant remember exact no.) now. Scottish voting has gone from 4 clear party options 10 years ago to 2 now - SNP or Tory. Lab and LibDem are all but irrelevant, Swinson couldn't even keep her seat, it's a battle of Union v Independence more than ever and Tory's seem to draw the Unionist vote better than LAb/LD.

Looking at the threads on Sturgeons recent tweets, many think she's enjoying the FM role and the level of power/influence she has too much, some saying they wont vote SNP and giving up membership, impatience setting in after endless mandates for indyref2 come and go. Could just be attention-seeking knee-jerk online nonsense like we see on here of course. Not sure but I think Independence looks no more likely now than 4 years ago. Scots are known for being canny and the flag-waving chest-beating populism is fine but it's the silent majority who aren't on the marches you have to convince. Economics of leaving UK have to look better and any negative Brexit effect to kick in for more SNP gains I think.

2017 GE SNP went down 13% in vote share from 2015. In 2019 they did well but only recovered with an 8% increase from 2017 so still well down on 2015 (50%) - that 56 of 59 seats was on a 50% vote share, not 75. Tories only went down 3.5% in december from their 2017 vote share which did cost them MPs, but they are still at 25% so 1 in 4 votes is not insignificant. Equally significant for me is SNP vote share only being at 45% in December so exactly where it was in the 2014 referendum. If that had been at 60% + then I'd think differently.

People had their independence chance in 2014 and didn't take it. I was amazed we even got an independence ref from Cameron.

I'm a bit head and heart with Independence and I'm unhappy with leaving EU. In another independence ref I really don't know how i would vote, I an unhappy with what the UK has become but prefer less borders. Depends on how this UK govt does, depressingly I have zero faith in Johnson but if he does somehow manage to redistribute wealth and investment and make us more prosperous then of course I'd welcome that. He has form on his dislike for us real northerners, he is a blatant liar and it'll be hard for him to any more popular than Thatcher up here. I was never a nationalist but since around 2010 have got far more sympathy with that view.

If anyone can reunite the UK it is not Boris Johnson. He was the main figure on the leave side and is underhand/untrustworthy so can never be neutral enough or sufficiently untarnished to re-unite. Division is here to stay.  

The fact NI and Wales assemblies and Scotland's parliament did not agree to the Withdrawal Act but were ignored speaks volumes about any 'Union'.

Maybe Keir Starmer is the only one who can save the Union? Wont be a Tory.

No idea what is going to happen within UK, likely not alone in that view.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2020)

The only thing that will save the Union [IMO] is the formation of an English Parliament outside of Westminster.
I can't see that happening.

Re Maxfli's post, just about agree with all of that.
Only point I would mention is the rise of the Green vote. [whom for those south of Ae are also in favour of Independence.]


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## KenL (Feb 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There has always been a more militant hard core group of Independence supporters who think the SNP are taking the soft options.
I do not agree with them and think Nicola is taking the correct road. The Tory party cannot forever hold Scotland prisoner within a dysfunctional UK.

Johnson and Scots Tories are taking every opportunity to talk Scotland down, can anyone quote a positive thing/action he has said about Scotland within the UK.
The whole Scots Tory agenda at the last election was to stop Indyref2. This cost them half of there seats, yet they still carry on spouting the same guff.
It is inevitable that Scotland will become an Independent country. At the moment it is only the elderly and right wing Unionists that are holding them back.

I see the Unison trade union is now supporting Scotland's right hold Indyref2. Quite a shift from the former bastion of Labour support, they have obviously came to the conclusion that you cannot ignore the wishes of over 60% of their membership and hope to survive.
		
Click to expand...

I am getting totally sick of reading your rubbish.

You and the SNP do not speak for the majority ( yes, the majority) of Scots.

What is this dysfunctional UK you speak of? Scotland is not a prisoner in the UK, more like a lucky relative benefitting from family wealth.

Once NS is up in court and having to speak the truth about AS she will be history.


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## User62651 (Feb 3, 2020)

KenL said:



			I am getting totally sick of reading your rubbish.

You and the SNP do not speak for the majority ( yes, the majority) of Scots.

What is this dysfunctional UK you speak of? Scotland is not a prisoner in the UK, more like a lucky relative benefitting from family wealth.

*Once NS is up in court and having to speak the truth about AS she will be history.*

Click to expand...

What are you suggesting she knows? 
Word it carefully.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			What are you suggesting she knows?
Word it carefully.

Click to expand...

It will be interesting to find out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2020)

KenL said:



			I am getting totally sick of reading your rubbish.

You and the SNP do not speak for the majority ( yes, the majority) of Scots.

What is this dysfunctional UK you speak of? Scotland is not a prisoner in the UK, more like a lucky relative benefitting from family wealth.

Once NS is up in court and having to speak the truth about AS she will be history.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to burst your wee bubble but latest polls say there is a majority of Scots in support of Independence.
FYI it is not just the SNP who are in favour of Independence
Support for Independence has been 47-51% lately. [60+% think it should be up to the Scots Parliament to decide on whether Indyref2 takes place]


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry to burst your wee bubble but latest polls say there is a majority of Scots in support of Independence.
FYI it is not just the SNP who are in favour of Independence
Support for Independence has been 47-51% lately. [60+% think it should be up to the Scots Parliament to decide on whether Indyref2 takes place]
		
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https://whatscotlandthinks.org/ques...ependence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/?removed


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			What are you suggesting she knows? 
Word it carefully.

Click to expand...

With so many charges over a lengthy period of time would it not be surprising if others in the party had not  whisperings of the alleged goings on?


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry to burst your wee bubble but latest polls say there is a majority of Scots in support of Independence.
FYI it is not just the SNP who are in favour of Independence
Support for Independence has been 47-51% lately. [60+% think it should be up to the Scots Parliament to decide on whether Indyref2 takes place]
		
Click to expand...

A couple of polls taken at an emotionally charged time is not a real prediction for a real vote.


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## Slab (Feb 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			With so many charges over a lengthy period of time would it not be surprising if others in the party had not  whisperings of the alleged goings on?
		
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Isn't that quite thin to base a claim that _'she'll be history'_


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			Isn't that quite thin to base a claim that _'she'll be history'_

Click to expand...

Yes, OK.  Just wishful thinking on my part!


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## Slab (Feb 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			A couple of polls taken at an emotionally charged time is not a real prediction for a real vote.
		
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While I wouldn't claim to support much of what DfT posts, even if the independence support was as low as 45, 40 or even just 33% of the voters, isn't that level of following still worthy of independence having a consistent voice?


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			While I wouldn't claim to support much of what DfT posts, even if the independence support was as low as 45, 40 or even just 33% of the voters, isn't that level of following still worthy of independence having a consistent voice?
		
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What do you mean by consistent voice?
From my perspective they do have a voice, one that never shuts up about  independence.  Just look at Blackford everytime he speaks in parliament.
SNp need to at least pay a little bit of attention to the mess they are making of healthcare, policing, education, spending of public money etc.


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## Slab (Feb 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			What do you mean by consistent voice?
From my perspective they do have a voice, one that never shuts up about  independence.  Just look at Blackford everytime he speaks in parliament.
*SNp need to at least pay a little bit of attention to the mess they are making of healthcare, policing, education, spending of public money etc*.
		
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I'm out of touch on this, is it really gone backwards so much from the labour years?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 4, 2020)

It seems a pointless conversation, the English voted in a majority who won’t listen nor do they have to because of their majority.
To stand a chance the strategy needs to change and to gain a majority at the next election and not be just concentrating on one area .. so it means the SNP need to contest seats outside of Scotland. At present they are just causing issues for the union and giving the separatists false hope with out doing a proper job .. remember in a democracy no one gives a monkeys about a minority


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## User62651 (Feb 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I'm out of touch on this, is it really gone backwards so much from the labour years?
		
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Labour were in govt here during the Blair years, so both Westminster and Holyrood under Labour so total control - of course it was spun as all 'hunky dory'. Now its Tory WM v SNP Holyrood, like Stalin v Hitler compared to the Labour years.

Going backwards is certainly spun by Tories and others as a means to try and chop down SNP, it's just typical of the polarised view in politics on every single issue - there is rarely any consensus at all, just claim and counter claim, no sensible middle ground. You just don't know who to believe.
Teaching or lack of teachers is a UK nationwide problem, council funding for schools is a nationwide problem. Exam results have fallen a little in Scotland but to be honest how can they keep increasing every single year? - impossible or you end up with everyone at 100%. Apparently NHS in Scotland is doing better than any other part of UK in terms of treatment times but it's all relative with NHS.
I went to state school in the 1980s and my whole secondary education was blighted by teachers strikes from EIS/SSTA that went on for years - they even associated the demise of the national football team with that time as sports and clubs all suffered. i have a kid in state secondary now and looking at all that is available to him and speaking to his teachers etc it looks way way better than my time.


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I'm out of touch on this, is it really gone backwards so much from the labour years?
		
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It certainly has.


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## User62651 (Feb 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			With so many charges over a lengthy period of time would it not be surprising if others in the party had not  whisperings of the alleged goings on?
		
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Boo, thought you had something concrete there.


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## chrisd (Feb 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson and Scots Tories are taking every opportunity to talk Scotland down, can anyone quote a positive thing/action he has said about Scotland within the UK.
		
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Yes, that you ain't gonna get another referendum  🤣🤣


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## patricks148 (Feb 4, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Labour were in govt here during the Blair years, so both Westminster and Holyrood under Labour so total control - of course it was spun as all 'hunky dory'. Now its Tory WM v SNP Holyrood, like Stalin v Hitler compared to the Labour years.

Going backwards is certainly spun by Tories and others as a means to try and chop down SNP, it's just typical of the polarised view in politics on every single issue - there is rarely any consensus at all, just claim and counter claim, no sensible middle ground. You just don't know who to believe.
Teaching or lack of teachers is a UK nationwide problem, council funding for schools is a nationwide problem. Exam results have fallen a little in Scotland but to be honest how can they keep increasing every single year? - impossible or you end up with everyone at 100%. Apparently NHS in Scotland is doing better than any other part of UK in terms of treatment times but it's all relative with NHS.
I went to state school in the 1980s and my whole secondary education was blighted by teachers strikes from EIS/SSTA that went on for years - they even associated the demise of the national football team with that time as sports and clubs all suffered. i have a kid in state secondary now and looking at all that is available to him and speaking to his teachers etc it looks way way better than my time.
		
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i agree, there is also the matter of infrastructure projects they have been spending on, A9 Dual, Aberdeen bypass, Queensferry crossing. Infra funding was neglected or non existant before devolv and EU funding. lets not forget WM would not even fund a bridge for Sky back in the 90


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

The same people who say Scotland is riddled with debt and should want to remain part of the UK tend to be the sort of people who wanted out of the EU to avoid being saddled with the debts of others and to avoid communal sharing of problems. 

Can’t have it both ways.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i agree, there is also the matter of infrastructure projects they have been spending on, A9 Dual, Aberdeen bypass, Queensferry crossing. Infra funding was neglected or non existant before devolv and EU funding. lets not forget WM would not even fund a bridge for Sky back in the 90
		
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Not forgetting Labour's Jack McConnell used to send back £millions of unspent Scots money to Westminster to pave the way for his HoL seat.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry to burst your wee bubble but latest polls say there is a majority of Scots in support of Independence.
FYI it is not just the SNP who are in favour of Independence
Support for Independence has been 47-51% lately. [60+% think it should be up to the Scots Parliament to decide on whether Indyref2 takes place]
		
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Not according to the article drdel posted from your beloved wings....Support has flatlined even in the face of Brexit and the large conservative majority, 83% of donations received in 2019 were bequeathed in wills (the living don’t want to waste their money) and the reality is the last thing the SNP want is independence. 
I found the article fascinating, it blows your argument out of the water every single time. 
No doubt in your mind this applies...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not according to the article drdel posted from your beloved wings....Support has flatlined even in the face of Brexit and the large conservative majority, 83% of donations received in 2019 were bequeathed in wills (the living don’t want to waste their money) and the reality is the last thing the SNP want is independence.
I found the article fascinating, it blows your argument out of the water every single time.
No doubt in your mind this applies...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Click to expand...

I think you are getting confused between the SNP and The Independence movement/Yes/AUOB campaigns....they are all separate things.
As I have said many times on here not all SNP supporters want independence and there are many people who dislike the SNP but do want independence.
As an example.....One of my neighbours is an Tory supporter who wants Independence, she is English. Her Scots husband is a Union Jack waving Tory voter who is no friend of the SNP and the idea of Independence.
It is complicated and generalisations that you [and others] use show a lack of understanding.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Yes, that you ain't gonna get another referendum  🤣🤣
		
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Should they not have another referendum though ? Since the last one circumstances have changed dramatically for the UK and it’s going in another direction - so it’s prob right to ask Scotland if they want to carry on being part of the Union or they want to break out on their own 

Surely as a very ardent supporter of Independance from the EU for the UK you would ( and indeed anyone who voted to leave ) be very much supportive of the desire for a referendum for Scotland and indeed Wales and NI if they so wish and they if they voted to leave the UK be right behind them all the way


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Should they not have another referendum though ? Since the last one circumstances have changed dramatically for the UK and it’s going in another direction - so it’s prob right to ask Scotland if they want to carry on being part of the Union or they want to break out on their own

Surely as a very ardent supporter of Independance from the EU for the UK you would ( and indeed anyone who voted to leave ) be very much supportive of the desire for a referendum for Scotland and indeed Wales and NI if they so wish and they if they voted to leave the UK be right behind them all the way
		
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As a supposed equal partner in the Union should they even have to ask? To me, it should be an internal discussion in the Scottish Parliament, and if they decision is to have another refrendum, crack on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2020)

Maybe the UK govt is a little tied up right now on a matter that affects the whole country. Get Brexit fully resolved and then look at another referendum once it has settled down. Trying to deal with separation from the EU and then (possibly) Scotland as well would be too big an ask right now. BJ may not be appeasing part of the Scottish vote but on this issue I do think he is looking after the country as a whole (this subject alone). Once Brexit has been done and settled down, different matter.


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## Wolf (Feb 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maybe the UK govt is a little tied up right now on a matter that affects the whole country. Get Brexit fully resolved and then look at another referendum once it has settled down. Trying to deal with separation from the EU and then (possibly) Scotland as well would be too big an ask right now. BJ may not be appeasing part of the Scottish vote but on this issue I do think he is looking after the country as a whole (this subject alone). Once Brexit has been done and settled down, different matter.
		
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Your post deserves an infraction LT... You've come onto a thread where your not allowed to post something that actually makes sense, consider yourself told off..


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Your post deserves an infraction LT... You've come onto a thread where your not allowed to post something that actually makes sense, consider yourself told off..
		
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Telling off received. Apologies for my foolishness


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As a supposed equal partner in the Union should they even have to ask? To me, it should be an internal discussion in the Scottish Parliament, and if they decision is to have another refrendum, crack on.
		
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You need to remember how stressful this is for people living through this.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Your post deserves an infraction LT... You've come onto a thread where your not allowed to post something that actually makes sense, consider yourself told off..
		
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Only it doesn’t make sense because negotiations the UK are involved in would need to take into account a future Scottish exit from the union or else that’ll be another thing to renegotiate in the near future as our bargaining power is smaller once again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Only it doesn’t make sense because negotiations the UK are involved in would need to take into account a future Scottish exit from the union or else that’ll be another thing to renegotiate in the near future as our bargaining power is smaller once again.
		
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So you want the UK to weaken its bargaining hand at this stage in the negotiations? If a deal is struck this year then that is the deal for the UK going forwards. If Scotland decides to go independent in the future the EU will not be back to renegotiate, the deal still stands. Any negotiations will be solely between Scotland and the EU regarding entry, nothing to do with the UK.


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## Kellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So you want the UK to weaken its bargaining hand at this stage in the negotiations? If a deal is struck this year then that is the deal for the UK going forwards. If Scotland decides to go independent in the future the EU will not be back to renegotiate, the deal still stands. Any negotiations will be solely between Scotland and the EU regarding entry, nothing to do with the UK.
		
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If the Scottish want independence from the UK, I can only assume the government would support that in line with their support for Brexit. 

We, as a population, have shown that the ramifications are not something we are overly bothered about.


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## chrisd (Feb 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Should they not have another referendum though ?
		
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No!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you are getting confused between the SNP and The Independence movement/Yes/AUOB campaigns....they are all separate things.
As I have said many times on here not all SNP supporters want independence and there are many people who dislike the SNP but do want independence.
As an example.....One of my neighbours is an Tory supporter who wants Independence, she is English. Her Scots husband is a Union Jack waving Tory voter who is no friend of the SNP and the idea of Independence.
It is complicated and generalisations that you [and others] use *show a lack of understanding.*

Click to expand...

Ah the old “you don’t understand the situation” cop out. 
What about @KenL? Does he not understand the situation either? 

#UnionJock👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No!
		
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Why not ? 

I’m surprised at your stance when you consider your pro independence stance from the EU ?


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## chrisd (Feb 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why not ?

I’m surprised at your stance when you consider your pro independence stance from the EU ?
		
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Their position is the same as remoaners  - dont get the result they want so have to keep going until they do. It was a once in a generation vote, they voted to stay, no caveat about, if other circumstances change then we can keep bleating for another go. They should wait until we see the longer term effects of Brexit and then they would have more of a case.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			You need to remember how stressful this is for people living through this.
		
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But, equally, there's almost an equal number want this to happen. I hear what you're saying, and its bl00dy annoying to hear the whining of some but it needs resolving. It needs a decisive majority either way to put it to bed. It was so close last time and, as others have said, there's been a significant change (Brexit) which clearly wasn't supported by Scotland.

Also, this is  the SNP thread, not an independence thread. The SNP appear to have little opposition and, dare I say by virtue of their propaganda, can do little wrong. Their record on the NHS and education in recent years is rank bad. And saying "its better than rUK" doesn't make it right but some seem to think that's good enough. Its not! Have some bl00dy ambition and hold them to account. By all means return them but at least rattle their cage.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Should they not have another referendum though ? Since the last one circumstances have changed dramatically for the UK and it’s going in another direction - so it’s prob right to ask Scotland if they want to carry on being part of the Union or they want to break out on their own
		
Click to expand...

Is it unreasonable to ask the we (Scottish voters) actually get to see how Brexit pans out before we have another referendum, enabling us to make a more informed and educated choice?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Is it unreasonable to ask the we (Scottish voters) actually get to see how Brexit pans out before we have another referendum, enabling us to make a more informed and educated choice?
		
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How long do you expect to have to wait for that? 5yrs, 10yrs? Rees-Mogg reckoned 50yrs before the full economic consequences of Brexit would be known...would suit many I am sure - but not the rest


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Their position is the same as remoaners  - dont get the result they want so have to keep going until they do. It was a once in a generation vote, they voted to stay, no caveat about, if other circumstances change then we can keep bleating for another go. They should wait until we see the longer term effects of Brexit and then they would have more of a case.
		
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Remoaners?! Good to see that’s still going on 

Do you see the reason why they want to ask the question again.

During the original referendum they were told plainly that the only way for Scotland to stay within the EU was to stay in the UK Union - that’s a fact that can’t be denied 

So a couple after that promise the UK have an EU vote of which Scotland clearly vote to stay within the EU but the UK overall vote is to leave 

So that promise has gone , so the situation and circumstances has staged significantly 

It’s very valid for them to ask the question again because of those changes in circumstances- it’s the right thing to do

Why should they wait ? Why can’t they have a say in their future and look to become Independant? 

It almost seems like a touch of hypocrisy for people to laud independance from the EU but then not allow the countries within in the Union if they can be independent. Right now before all trade deals etc are sorted it’s a good time for Scotland to ask the questions again - I don’t see why people would be so asgainst it


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## chrisd (Feb 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Remoaners?! Good to see that’s still going on

Do you see the reason why they want to ask the question again.

During the original referendum they were told plainly that the only way for Scotland to stay within the EU was to stay in the UK Union - that’s a fact that can’t be denied

So a couple after that promise the UK have an EU vote of which Scotland clearly vote to stay within the EU but the UK overall vote is to leave

So that promise has gone , so the situation and circumstances has staged significantly

It’s very valid for them to ask the question again because of those changes in circumstances- it’s the right thing to do

Why should they wait ? Why can’t they have a say in their future and look to become Independant?

It almost seems like a touch of hypocrisy for people to laud independance from the EU but then not allow the countries within in the Union if they can be independent. Right now before all trade deals etc are sorted it’s a good time for Scotland to ask the questions again - I don’t see why people would be so asgainst it
		
Click to expand...

That's your opinion Phil


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## Wolf (Feb 5, 2020)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1237601/Nicola-sturgeon-news-SNP-EU-Brexit-Scottish-independence

Well that's awkward... 😂


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## Jacko_G (Feb 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But, equally, there's almost an equal number want this to happen. I hear what you're saying, and its bl00dy annoying to hear the whining of some but it needs resolving. It needs a decisive majority either way to put it to bed. It was so close last time and, as others have said, there's been a significant change (Brexit) which clearly wasn't supported by Scotland.

Also, this is  the SNP thread, not an independence thread. The SNP appear to have little opposition and, dare I say by virtue of their propaganda, can do little wrong. *Their record on the NHS and education in recent years is rank bad.* And saying "its better than rUK" doesn't make it right but some seem to think that's good enough. Its not! Have some bl00dy ambition and hold them to account. By all means return them but at least rattle their cage.
		
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Its not any worse than the rest of the UK and in some instances probably better.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1237601/Nicola-sturgeon-news-SNP-EU-Brexit-Scottish-independence

Well that's awkward... 😂
		
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Tory propaganda - hardly worth using instead of toilet paper.

What will be will be - independence will come, maybe 2 years, maybe 22 years mark my words it will come.


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## Wolf (Feb 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Tory propaganda - hardly worth using instead of toilet paper.

What will be will be - independence will come, maybe 2 years, maybe 22 years mark my words it will come.
		
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I don't buy news papers as they're all only good fir one thing, each brand has its Bias but this article is interesting. You can go class it as Tory propaganda if you wish butntheres no denying factually it happened which regardless of spin its not a good look for Sturgeon.

As for independence I have always said if Scotland truly want it let them have it, but theres a lot you'll lose and suffer for if it comes. There's a lot of rebuilding of services that would have to be done at a huge cost, if Scotland are willing to accept that and go for it fair enough.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 5, 2020)

There will be nothing barring Scotland from applying to become part of the EU should they gain independence. That said I'm not convinced that there will be an EU by the time Scotland gain independence. Can't see Germany wanting to continue to pump money into Europe while they are in a recession, can't see France doing likewise either, Italy are almost broke.


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## KenL (Feb 5, 2020)

Yes, EU could well collapse or at least change significantly.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Ah the old “you don’t understand the situation” cop out.
What about @KenL? Does he not understand the situation either?

#UnionJock👍
		
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Clearly not as he thinks that only SNP supporters wish Independence for Scotland.
Wrong on two counts there.


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## KenL (Feb 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Clearly not as he thinks that only SNP supporters wish Independence for Scotland.
Wrong on two counts there.
		
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There cant be very many, I've certainly never met one.

For me the only reason you'd be stupid enough to vote SNP at the moment is because you want independence - that's their main stance.  You would never vote for them based on how well they are running things in Scotland.
Have you heard that the latest deficit is now so bad that Scotland wouldn't pass EU entry requirements despite charging all who live here extra for income tax.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2020)

Johnson bans the Saltire from being flown at the World climate change conference in GLASGOW SCOTLAND.
He is really going for it eh. It's going to be messy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2020)

KenL said:



			There cant be very many, I've certainly never met one.

For me the only reason you'd be stupid enough to vote SNP at the moment is because you want independence - that's their main stance.  You would never vote for them based on how well they are running things in Scotland.
Have you heard that the latest deficit is now so bad that Scotland wouldn't pass EU entry requirements despite charging all who live here extra for income tax.
		
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There is two in my close neighbourhood for starters.
Scotland has the lowest income tax rate in the UK.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson bans the Saltire from being flown at the World climate change conference in GLASGOW SCOTLAND.
He is really going for it eh. It's going to be messy.
		
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Wrong (as usual) he said he doesn’t mind seeing a few but he wants to see the Union flag more prominent, as it’s a Westminster funded event.
He also said doesn’t want Sturgeon anywhere near it. Fair play Boris, fair play.👍


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## Wolf (Feb 5, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Wrong (as usual) he said he doesn’t mind seeing a few but he wants to see the Union flag more prominent, as it’s a Westminster funded event.
He also said doesn’t want Sturgeon anywhere near it. Fair play Boris, fair play.👍
		
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Come on F&D you know DFT doesn't let something like facts get in the way of his SNP/Independence bias


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Wrong (as usual) he said he doesn’t mind seeing a few but he wants to see the Union flag more prominent, as it’s a Westminster funded event.
He also said doesn’t want Sturgeon anywhere near it. Fair play Boris, fair play.👍
		
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That might prove a bit difficult if the hosts [the UN] invite Nicola, as they have to the last three summits.
Johnson is so gormless that by making his daft statement he will ensure that every shop/building/person in shouting distance of the Hydro will be flying a Saltire.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That might prove a bit difficult if the hosts [the UN] invite Nicola, as they have to the last three summits.
Johnson is so gormless that by making his daft statement he will ensure that every shop/building/person in shouting distance of the Hydro will be flying a Saltire.
		
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Have another go Doon... The U.K. government are the Hosts.


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Have another go Doon... The U.K. government are the Hosts.
		
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How very dare the UK govt share prestigious events around the UK, letting Scotland have prominence. Everyone knows the UK govt wants the provinces to be downtrodden backwaters.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland has the lowest income tax rate in the UK.

Click to expand...

No it doesn't. The UK has a zero starting rate of income tax so it's not possible for Scotland to have a lower rate than that. Unless they've got a negative rate and are giving people money to go to work. Maybe that's why the deficit is so big.


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## KenL (Feb 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			No it doesn't. The UK has a zero starting rate of income tax so it's not possible for Scotland to have a lower rate than that. Unless they've got a negative rate and are giving people money to go to work. Maybe that's why the deficit is so big.
		
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Work for a living and you only need to earn £26k in Scotland to pay more tax.

In addition, council tax bands were adjusted so people in a modest house like mine got hit with about 20% rise last year. Scotgov has sanctioned councils to make another increase of close to 5% this year.


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## lobthewedge (Feb 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland has the lowest income tax rate in the UK.

Click to expand...

sorry doon but we really dont, I know from personal experience 

be careful with what you say, telling lies makes the baby Jesus cry


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## Slab (Feb 6, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Their position is the same as remoaners  - dont get the result they want so have to keep going until they do. It was a once in a generation vote, they voted to stay, no caveat about, if other circumstances change then we can keep bleating for another go.* They should wait until we see the longer term effects of Brexit and then they would have more of a case*.
		
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How would that strategy assist the Scottish government when negotiating brexit deals with Westminster on behalf of the people in Scotland ?

Surely you'd want your Government to conduct its negotiations from their strongest position (whether you voted for them or not) Surely there's no way you'd encourage your government to adopt a simple _'wait and see'_ policy while trade, commerce and social deals worth billions are decided in their hundreds

Surely continuing with a known commitment to ongoing calls for independence provides a better/stronger post-brexit negotiating position for the Scottish government (especially given the historical imbalance towards Scotland in such decision making)

Being just another territorial voice among the voices from the Midlands, North East, West Country etc etc all shouting at westminster for a bigger piece of the pie hasn't given Scotland any real benefit in its negotiating strength because Westminster has provided investment wherever in the country the particular government of the day wants to buy votes for their next election,
That strategy doesn't assist Scotland's bargaining position one iota right now because the main westminster parties know there is no hope of buying votes in Scotland for a generation, so why should Westminster accommodate anything Scotland asks for when deciding the hundreds of post-brexit trade deals.... *unless*... Scotland holds onto the _only _card it has to play when dealing with Westminster... _deal with us fairly post-brexit or we will continue to pursue Independence and leave this union_

why would anyone believe the SNP are doing anything wrong for the people of Scotland by showing that this is the strongest (and only) hand it has to play?


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...42/snp-derek-mackay-schoolboy-texts-holyrood/

Poor SNP, whilst trying to distance themselves from the Salmond scandal something else comes up to bite them on the bum.
Great role models eh?


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...42/snp-derek-mackay-schoolboy-texts-holyrood/

Poor SNP, whilst trying to distance themselves from the Salmond scandal something else comes up to bite them on the bum.
Great role models eh?
		
Click to expand...

Just resigned


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just resigned
		
Click to expand...

Pity.  I had hoped he would hang around and help drag them down.

Despicable abuse of power, let's see how NS deals with this!


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## patricks148 (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just resigned
		
Click to expand...

if i was cynical i would be wondering why a young boy contacted him out of the blue then carried on phone texts with him... then that the Sun had all the texts and brought it up right before he was due to release the Scottish Budget.

not making excuses, he deserves to lose his job for this and maybe more.... just saying.. the Sun...


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			if i was cynical i would be wondering why a young boy contacted him out of the blue then carried on phone texts with him... then that the Sun had all the texts and brought it up right before he was due to release the Scottish Budget.

not making excuses, he deserves to lose his job for this and maybe more.... just saying.. the Sun...

Click to expand...

Its entirely possible but it shows the character of the bloke regardless of the source.


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## patricks148 (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Its entirely possible but it shows the character of the bloke regardless of the source.
		
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 yes absolutely


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			if i was cynical i would be wondering why a young boy contacted him out of the blue then carried on phone texts with him... then that the Sun had all the texts and brought it up right before he was due to release the Scottish Budget.

not making excuses, he deserves to lose his job for this and maybe more.... just saying.. the Sun...

Click to expand...

I read it as the SNP guy had contacted the boy out of the blue rather than the other way round.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

What a fool - and we can also describe him as arrogant for thinking that he could get away with it?  But more the fool he if he did think that.  At least he had the decency to resign immediately and apologise for the upset caused.


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			if i was cynical i would be wondering why a young boy contacted him out of the blue then carried on phone texts with him... then that the Sun had all the texts and brought it up right before he was due to release the Scottish Budget.

not making excuses, he deserves to lose his job for this and maybe more.... just saying.. the Sun...

Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous!


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What a fool - and we can also describe him as arrogant for thinking that he could get away with it?  But more the fool he if he did think that.  At least he had the decency to resign immediately and apologise for the upset caused.
		
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I do not see his resignation as decency!


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## patricks148 (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			Don't be ridiculous!
		
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they wouldn't do a thing like that would they


a  paper witha history of setting people up and phone hacking.... 

and before you wet yourself, i'm not saying he isn't guilty


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2020)

Resigned because he realised he was wrong or resigned because he’d been caught out being stupid?


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Resigned because he realised he was wrong or resigned because he’d been caught out being stupid?
		
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Both.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Both.
		
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Would he have resigned if this hadn’t come to light?


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Would he have resigned if this hadn’t come to light?
		
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Doubt it
But, hopefully, he now knows he's both wrong and stupid.
Is this something for the Police to get involved with..?


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## ger147 (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Doubt it
But, hopefully, he now knows he's both wrong and stupid.
Is this something for the Police to get involved with..?
		
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The Police? Was the boy not 16 years old?


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

Police need to be investigating. It may not be just one child!


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## Wolf (Feb 6, 2020)

If it hadn't come to light I think its a pretty safe assumption he wouldn't haven't brought it up, admitted to it and would've carried on his role regardless.. What does need investigating further is was this an isolated incident and was there anything further untoward with potential younger people.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 6, 2020)

Have to agree with this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225344839203643392


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			Pity.  I had hoped he would hang around and help drag them down.

Despicable abuse of power,* let's see how NS deals with this*!
		
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she'll do what she normally does - blame Westminster!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			I do not see his resignation as decency!
		
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OK - he did the right thing.

But I'll note that I used the word 'decent' *in respect of his resignation *in accordance with the following definition

_of an acceptable standard; satisfactory. _

rather than what I think you were taking from it

_conforming with generally accepted standards of respectable or moral behaviour. _

I think we can agree that the speed of his resignation was (if nothing else) satisfactory.


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			The Police? Was the boy not 16 years old?
		
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I don't know whether they should or not...that's why I'm asking the question..


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## Captainron (Feb 6, 2020)

I wonder just how much Sturgeon was aware of the alleged things Salmond was up to and whether she knew about this moron as well? 

If she had any inkling and kept it schtum them its should be the end of her.


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## 4LEX (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...42/snp-derek-mackay-schoolboy-texts-holyrood/

Poor SNP, whilst trying to distance themselves from the Salmond scandal something else comes up to bite them on the bum.
Great role models eh?
		
Click to expand...

At least we know what the N in the SNP really means 

If you give the likes of the SNP enough rope they'll hang themselves.......sit back and enjoy the demise of the wicked witch


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

4LEX said:



			At least we know what the N in the SNP really means 

If you give the likes of the SNP enough rope they'll hang themselves.......sit back and enjoy the demise of the wicked witch 

Click to expand...

Your not allowed to call the vertically challenged former kids tv presenter any names as the pant wetting snowflakes don’t like it and complain yet their free to say what they want about Boris, trump and anyone else they don’t like!


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - he did the right thing.

But I'll note that I used the word 'decent' *in respect of his resignation *in accordance with the following definition

_of an acceptable standard; satisfactory. _

rather than what I think you were taking from it

_conforming with generally accepted standards of respectable or moral behaviour. _

I think we can agree that the speed of his resignation was (if nothing else) satisfactory.
		
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It’s a shame the idiot has only suspended him while they investigate!
He’d admitted it and there’s proof so not sure what she’s investigating


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

Should be sacked immediately as an MSP for not upholding the standards required of an elected public figure.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I don't know whether they should or not...that's why I'm asking the question..
		
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If it was our 16 year old son we would want it investigated.


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Come on, this is a non political thing, could and does happen in ever walk of life and all the main political parties have had their fair share of scandal.

Guy is married with 2 kids yet seems to be interested in older boys or men suggests he's living a lie, some like David Mundell addressed their sexuality, others can't and hide in relationships. As the person is 16 it does of course seem wrong as the age makes it look like grooming but legally there is not an issue. Think of his poor wife and kids in this, The Sun will make things horrific for them.

Most people had never heard of this guy before today.
		
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Are you for real or is this a sick joke?


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2020)

Some very interesting articles about the age group that falls between the cracks where sexual grooming is concerned, i.e. 16 and year olds. They are not adults, they are still children is the main theme in several articles and education papers, including a report in Hansard. The consensus also touched on a belief by some adults that once someone reaches 16 they are fair game. 

When a mature adult chases after a 16/17 year old, especially one still at school, there's something seriously wrong with their mindset. As blunt as it seems, its sexual grooming. Dress it up any way you like, hide behind the "he's 16" if it suits your own mindset, but its still sick. 

Perhaps we should consider the words of Joanna Cherry QC, "he's guilty of grooming behaviour"...………….. by the way, she's a SNP MSP.


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## Robster59 (Feb 6, 2020)

Dando said:



			Your not allowed to call the vertically challenged former kids tv presenter any names as the pant wetting snowflakes don’t like it and complain yet their free to say what they want about Boris, trump and anyone else they don’t like!
		
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A lot of my Scottish friends refer to her as "The Nippy Wee Sweetie" (not meant as a compliment).


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## Jacko_G (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			I do not see his resignation as decency!
		
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Perhaps it's because you are rather bitter and twisted when it comes to anything  SNP!


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## HankMarvin (Feb 6, 2020)

Absolute disgusting what this man has been doing and lets just hope losing his job is just the start of things.  

This guy was being primed to take over from sturgeon , makes you question what other stuff is being hidden after both him and Alex  have been found out.

Absolutely shocking


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## HankMarvin (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			Should be sacked immediately as an MSP for not upholding the standards required of an elected public figure.
		
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100% correct


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## Jacko_G (Feb 6, 2020)

Captainron said:



			I wonder just how much Sturgeon was aware of the alleged things Salmond was up to and whether she knew about this moron as well?

If she had any inkling and kept it schtum them its should be the end of her.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously man grow up!

Do you know who in your office/organisation is having affairs or who is texting/emailing in contact with who???


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 6, 2020)

What is Doon’s  view?


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			What is Doon’s  view?
		
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Blinkered?


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2020)

Agree he should lose MSP job, untenable position anyway, however that role quickly gets filled by another and politics and newspapers moves on. These scandals involving individuals don't derail whole political parties (leader excepted) no matter how much opponents want it to. Politicians aren't role models for anyone anymore, they're faceless so replaceable.


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## toyboy54 (Feb 6, 2020)

A bit on the bitter side tonight are you not Dando??We may have voted for them-doesn't mean we support them(I've made clear in other posts that I couldn't vote my usual Labour because of Corbyn and the rabid far left nor could I consider the CONparty!
But yes!he should be hunted.
I know that if he was talking/grooming any kid of mine(don't have any,thank goodness)then I would certainly be wanting a Quiet word with him in a nice deserted alley to mm,how to put this politely?Oh yes!Got it!We could spend a nice 10/15/20 minutes discussing ways to be a bit more selective in who he communicates with and their age range!     No doubt he'll have a costly comprehensive healthcare package anyway paid for by us mugs-the taxpayer(No waiting in  any queues for him then unlike the plebbs!!
Happy Jimbo


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Perhaps it's because you are rather bitter and twisted when it comes to anything  SNP!
		
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I am not bitter or twisted they are.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			I am not bitter or twisted they are.
		
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😂😂😂🙈


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## lobthewedge (Feb 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Seriously man grow up!

Do you know who in your office/organisation is having affairs or who is texting/emailing in contact with who???
		
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Agree with you regards Mackays antics, how could she possibly know what he was up to and for me she has nothing to answer for.

i do think the Salmond case could be another story....


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## Crazyface (Feb 6, 2020)

Sad (bad) . Hard to post thoughts, without getting attacked either way. He's been dumped by NS so at least she's shown she can make good decisions quickly.


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## KenL (Feb 6, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Sad (bad) . Hard to post thoughts, without getting attacked either way. He's been dumped by NS so at least she's shown she can make good decisions quickly.
		
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This is not exactly an example of good leadership by NS.  She had zero choice to make.

Hopefully she will be forced to resign next. ;-)


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## Wolf (Feb 6, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Sad (bad) . Hard to post thoughts, without getting attacked either way. He's been dumped by NS so at least she's shown she can make good decisions quickly.
		
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Not sue I'd say this shows her as being good at making, good decisions quickly. Its merely doing what she had to do , there was no choice in the matter morally and no decision to make


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## Jacko_G (Feb 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			This is not exactly an example of good leadership by NS.  She had zero choice to make.

Hopefully she will be forced to resign next. ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Like the Murphy's.…………...….


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## Wolf (Feb 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Like the Murphy's.…………...….
		
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😂😂

I could quite fancy a pint of Murphys now you mention it


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## USER1999 (Feb 7, 2020)

Surprised no one has posted a link to 'Wings' yet. Do they not cover this sort of thing?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Surprised no one has posted a link to 'Wings' yet. Do they not cover this sort of thing?
		
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I think the Rev is taking a break from it - and he does the editorial content. You can be pretty darned sure that he wouldn’t be impressed - on multiple fronts...


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## User62651 (Feb 7, 2020)

The new lady coming in is supposed to be half decent so another female cabinet member will generally go down well given the gender imbalance in politics, every cloud etc. I cant see the overall support for SNP being affected by this even short term. Most people are absolutely entrenched in their political views the last few years - poisonous divisive counter-productive politics continues up here until this is resolved one way or another but given a near 50/50 split that's not going to happen soon.

The Salmond court case might have had some effect on support (if proved true) if it happened a few years ago but he's been kept distant since 2014 resignation so all new voters age 16-22 or so won't know or care who he is and the rest of us he becomes a distant memory. A week's a long time in politics, never mind 5.5 years. 

Sturgeon has taken on his mantle pretty well, even if you hate her she has presence (unlike say Labour's Dugdale or Leonard).

This current scandal issue disappears very quickly once the newspapers are sold - they'll already be looking for the next headline. The guy is too insignificant to sell more papers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 7, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225434135419924480
😂😂😂


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## HankMarvin (Feb 7, 2020)

Seems there are more concerns regarding Derek Mackays behaviour. Sturgeon said she didn't know of any but then it appeared that the guy had been banned from drinking at party conferences and there has been more stories of texts to other individuals. Not looking good for the SNP as the lies start to unfold........


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

HankMarvin said:



			Seems there are more concerns regarding Derek Mackays behaviour. Sturgeon said she didn't know of any but then it appeared that the guy had been banned from drinking at party conferences and there has been more stories of texts to other individuals. Not looking good for the SNP as the lies start to unfold........
		
Click to expand...

Johnson lies and marital misdemeanors don't seem to have impacted the Tory Party very much...

And maybe good that he was banned from drinking at party conferences (if that's true) - look what happened to Charles Kennedy...


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## Dando (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson lies and marital misdemeanors don't seem to have impacted the Tory Party very much...

And maybe good that he was banned from drinking at party conferences (if that's true) - look what happened to Charles Kennedy...

Click to expand...

I thought this thread was about the SNP!


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## williamalex1 (Feb 7, 2020)

I think the P  in SNP stands for Perverts


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

Dando said:



			I thought this thread was about the SNP!
		
Click to expand...

It is - simply making the point that the misdemeanors of an MP need not impact upon the party.  Have the Tories been harmed by Johnson's lies and misdemeanors?; were the LibDems harmed by the words and views of Tim Farron?  Did ex-Tory MP Ross Thompson's resignation over allegations of groping harm the Scottish Tories?

I am not sure that the actions of an individual will harm a party *unless *it is found that the party has know about and/or covered up for these actions.  That then is very difficult for any party...or institution.


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## HankMarvin (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is - but let's not throw our hands up in disgust when
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting we ignore what has been happening ?


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## Dando (Feb 7, 2020)

HankMarvin said:



			Are you suggesting we ignore what has been happening ?
		
Click to expand...

of course he is as its the SNP involved


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

HankMarvin said:



			Are you suggesting we ignore what has been happening ?
		
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...I hadn't finished my post...clearly posted too early.

I was going to post about throwing up our hands in disgust and apply that same disgust to the party the individual represents,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

What did the SNP leadership know about this and when were they informed are two important questions that Sturgeon has to answer.


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## Wolf (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I hadn't finished my post...clearly posted too early.

I was going to post about throwing up our hands in disgust and apply that same disgust to the party the individual represents,
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that Boris shagging another consenting adult behind his Mrs back is the same as another politician effectively grooming a 16 year old boy behind his Mrs back is worthy of the same outrage 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Are you suggesting that Boris shagging another consenting adult behind his Mrs back is the same as another politician effectively grooming a 16 year old boy behind his Mrs back is worthy of the same outrage 🤔
		
Click to expand...

I am absolutely not - I am very clearly and simply stating that the actions of an individual MP need not have a serious impact on their party. 

I have no skin in the game with the SNP - I live in England and have done so for 36yrs.  I look to the States and cannot believe that decent sensible American citizens can support the aberration (in my eyes) that is Trump...I might think differently of him if I lived there.  But I don't.   Likewise I have no idea how I'd feel about Sturgeon and the SNP if I actually lived in Scotland.  But I don't.


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## Wolf (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am absolutely not - I am very clearly and simply stating that the actions of an individual MP need not have a serious impact on their party.

I have no skin in the game with the SNP - I live in England and have done so for 36yrs.  I look to the States and cannot believe that decent sensible American citizens can support the aberration (in my eyes) that is Trump...I might think differently of him if I lived there.  But I don't.   Likewise I have no idea how I'd feel about Sturgeon and the SNP if I actually lived in Scotland.  But I don't.
		
Click to expand...

Fair play SILH just how the initial posts read👍


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## patricks148 (Feb 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What did the SNP leadership know about this and when were they informed are two important questions that Sturgeon has to answer.
		
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Huge,i   think you need to consider this..... what would Boris do in the same situation

how can i put it .... a teen film from the 80's about a nightclub in Angel Beach


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## KenL (Feb 8, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51411259

Worth a read.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2020)

KenL said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51411259

Worth a read.
		
Click to expand...

Read - and interesting I suppose - though which bit am I supposed to get most angry about...?

foolish, inappropriate and some would say disgusting and shameful behaviour by MacKay I get.


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## HankMarvin (Feb 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Read - and interesting I suppose - though which bit am I supposed to get most angry about...?

foolish, inappropriate and some would say disgusting and shameful behaviour by MacKay I get.
		
Click to expand...

I can't get my head round why he wasn't sacked by the SNP instead of him resigning ? That was foolish by the SNP


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## Hobbit (Feb 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Read - and interesting I suppose - though which bit am I supposed to get most angry about...?

foolish, inappropriate and some would say disgusting and shameful behaviour by MacKay I get.
		
Click to expand...

I guess there's 2 elements to this; 1) his behaviour, and 2) how the SNP managed it. The first is now common knowledge, and the second, apart from the bare bones, should stay behind closed doors.

As a manager, down the years, I've dealt with various types of inappropriate behaviour from staff. I wish I had a £ for every time I heard "Joe got away with murder before he was finally sacked." No he didn't. He'd have had warnings and performance improvement programmes before he was sacked, unless there was a gross misconduct issue, in which case he would have been out of the door.

The calls of sack him immediately would see due process circumvented and lay an organisation open to a court case. The organisation will know that dismissal is the end goal but can't go straight to that juncture. Suspension has to be the first port of call in most cases.

In this case, the guy is an idiot. He's had a warning, i.e. he's not to drink at Conferences. Beyond that, there's an inquiry to be had to confirm the accuracy of the allegations.... then hang him.

From the SNP's perspective, they appear to have got one major thing wrong. With his past record, which is coming to light but not yet confirmed, why did he get promoted to the level he was at? Someone goofed.


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## KenL (Feb 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Read - and interesting I suppose - though which bit am I supposed to get most angry about...?

foolish, inappropriate and some would say disgusting and shameful behaviour by MacKay I get.
		
Click to expand...

With the SNP looking to engage with the Sun to find out more and perhaps looking to prevent this coming out at all is possibly something to be angry about.
The fact he has not been immediately sacked as an MSP certainly angers me.


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## HankMarvin (Feb 9, 2020)

KenL said:



			With the SNP looking to engage with the Sun to find out more and perhaps looking to prevent this coming out at all is possibly something to be angry about.
The fact he has not been immediately sacked as an MSP certainly angers me.
		
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The SNP have today announced that they cannot sack him as an MSP, surely he is going to resign anyway. Plus there are more reports of sordid goings on  by him in the press, I think we will be hearing quite a lot more about this guy, I just hope the SNP have not known about what he has been doing and trying to cover it up.


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## KenL (Feb 9, 2020)

Given that it has been claimed that Sturgeon had banned him from drinking at functions SNP might have known what MacKay was like.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2020)

I don't know how the Scottish parliament works but based on Westminster all the SNP can do is remove him from office, he has resigned already, and then suspend him / remove him from the party, not happened yet I don't think. After that he becomes an independent msp and it is down to the disciplinary process within parliament. They have to go through the correct process otherwise they could be  open to a legal challenge. If he isn't ultimately removed from the party I'll be amazed, it is just a matter of when.


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## HankMarvin (Feb 9, 2020)

KenL said:



			Given that it has been claimed that Sturgeon had banned him from drinking at functions SNP might have known what MacKay was like.
		
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There had to be a good reason for it and I am pretty sure he would not have been banned for a one off incident so not sure what it was but it must have been something bad.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 10, 2020)

Ooops


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226838102414708737


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

KenL said:



			Given that it has been claimed that Sturgeon had banned him from drinking at functions SNP might have known what MacKay was like.
		
Click to expand...

Getting drunk and/or acting inappropriately or with a loose tongue when drunk does not necessarily bar you from office.  It all depends.  It did not prevent Charles Kennedy from becoming leader of the LibDems (that it seems Kennedy could not find his way into treatment or AA for fear of being 'exposed' is pretty grim); nor did lies and inappropriate and dubious extra-marital behaviour prevent our current PM getting elected.  It all depends.  And it depends on what assurances were given - and confidences broken...

It is sad for a career most probably wrecked...it is upsetting but hopefully not damaging for the 16yr old and his family.


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## Dando (Feb 10, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Ooops


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226838102414708737

Click to expand...

she'll blame Westminster


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## IanM (Feb 10, 2020)

Scotland will be welcomed back into the EU with open arms..... they have a big hole in their budget to fill.   Good luck with that!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

IanM said:



			Scotland will be welcomed back into the EU with open arms..... they have a big hole in their budget to fill.   Good luck with that!
		
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Don't worry - they'll go a fair way to filling the gap with the monies they screw out of Westminster to allow Trident subs to remain based in Scotland


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## IanM (Feb 10, 2020)

....nope, they'll be moved and so will the jobs that go with them.  Already under discussion.

Genuine question.  How much additional tax will you pay be prepared for Scotland (as a net contributor)  to rejoin the EU?   

Interesting noises in Brussels this week from several states rejecting the increases the "leadership" is asking for.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2020)

IanM said:



			....nope, they'll be moved and so will the jobs that go with them.  Already under discussion.

Genuine question.  How much additional tax will you pay be prepared for Scotland (as a net contributor)  to rejoin the EU? 

Interesting noises in Brussels this week from several states rejecting the increases the "leadership" is asking for.
		
Click to expand...

You can ask me - but I don't live in Scotland and so do not know how I'd feel about independence and so how much more tax I'd be willing to pay.

As mentioned.  I may have some SNP sympathies - but these come from the mid-late 70s - the days of the social democracy of Willie Wolfe and Gordon Wilson - and are actually Margo MacDonald inspired - were I to be living in Scotland today I may feel quite differently.  I do not know.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Y were I to be living in Scotland today I may feel quite differently.
		
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Were I to be living in Scotland today, I'd wear heavier clothes in the summer.  And probably not have to pay for supplemental health insurance.


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## IanM (Feb 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can ask me - but I don't live in Scotland and so do not know how I'd feel about independence and so how much more tax I'd be willing to pay.

As mentioned.  I may have some SNP sympathies - but these come from the mid-late 70s - the days of the social democracy of Willie Wolfe and Gordon Wilson - and are actually Margo MacDonald inspired - were I to be living in Scotland today I may feel quite differently.  I do not know.
		
Click to expand...


Apologies, my assumption of your locale and leanings were not correct and  I could also respect the folk you were talking about too, funny how polarised it has all become. 

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

IanM said:



			Apologies, my assumption of your locale and leanings were not correct and  I could also respect the folk you were talking about too, funny how polarised it has all become.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
		
Click to expand...

No probs - and it will be 👍

As it happens Scottish friends of ours moved 3yrs ago from Guildford to Haddington (outside Edinburgh) for their retirement after 35+ yrs down here.  And though conservative and previously anti-Indy they tell me that they have actually become more independence inclined in these three years.  Their one BIG concern...the numbers...


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No probs - and it will be 👍

As it happens Scottish friends of ours moved 3yrs ago from Guildford to Haddington (outside Edinburgh) for their retirement after 35+ yrs down here.  And though conservative and previously anti-Indy they tell me that they have actually become more independence inclined in these three years.  Their one BIG concern...the numbers...
		
Click to expand...

Haddington and the area is well worth a visit. Spitting distance from Edinburgh and a mountain of great golf courses.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

IanM said:



			....nope, they'll be moved and so will the jobs that go with them.  Already under discussion.
		
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I haven't seen anything about relocation of Trident - where are the subs off to?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Haddington and the area is well worth a visit. Spitting distance from Edinburgh and a mountain of great golf courses.
		
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It is very nice indeed - Mrs Hogie was well impressed by the area and the lovely house they bought for a fair bit less than they sold their smaller Guildford house for.  And nearby - North Berwick, Gullane, Dunbar...


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is very nice indeed - Mrs Hogie was well impressed by the area and the lovely house they bought for a fair bit less than they sold their smaller Guildford house for.  And nearby - North Berwick, Gullane, Dunbar... 

Click to expand...

you are forgetting the best of them...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you are forgetting the best of them...

Click to expand...

oooh I'm not pretending to know half of the good ones...


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			oooh I'm not pretending to know half of the good ones...
		
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One... sadly one you will never get to be a member of or 99.9 % of the population


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## KenL (Feb 25, 2020)

Seems good time to resurrect this thread.

What do people think of SNP MP inviting a drag queen, called Flowjob", with a toe curling social media presence into a primary school to read to children.

When parents and others raised their concerns Mhairi makes claims of homophobia.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...ohn-swinney-drag-queen-flow-job-mhairi-black/


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## Imurg (Feb 25, 2020)

I think it's safe to say it hasn't gone down well


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## Dando (Feb 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			Seems good time to resurrect this thread.

What do people think of SNP MP inviting a drag queen, called Flowjob", with a toe curling social media presence into a primary school to read to children.

When parents and others raised their concerns Mhairi makes claims of homophobia.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...ohn-swinney-drag-queen-flow-job-mhairi-black/

Click to expand...

they’ll find a away to blame Westminster


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## Wolf (Feb 25, 2020)

Having read that article it's safe to say the school made a huge error in judgement and Black made herself look foolish calling parent's homophobic to complain. There would be far better ways to get kids to understand LGBTQ society, the parents clearly thought the same and if Mhairi had looked into it properly instead of jumping on a band wagon she would have seen this as well. I'd say the issue is more about the school and Mhairi getting it wrong personally than it being anything to do with the SNP as a whole.


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## ferenezejohn (Feb 25, 2020)

As Black is my local MP,  I'm so happy I gave her her marching orders when she knocked on my door.
It's a scandal that Renfrewshire council allowed that person to address the children, where was the safeguarding? 
For Black to label parents concerns homophobic is disgusting.


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## KenL (Feb 26, 2020)

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...-queen-flow-job-paisley-school-nathan-mullen/


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 26, 2020)

Crazy idea from both the MSP and the School.
SNP starting to leak support with their views on gender ID
But before the sooper yoons get to the pant wetting stage most are still actively supporting independence.

Talk of setting up another proactive independence party with Yes/AUOB/and the other small parties.
Another Independence party would certainly boost the second vote system at Holyrood which is currently skewed against independence voters.


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## KenL (Feb 26, 2020)

Skewed against independence voters!
Would anyone actually vote for AUOB given the image portrayed by their marchers? Apart from those people that is?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Talk of setting up another proactive independence party with Yes/AUOB/and the other small parties.
Another Independence party would certainly boost the second vote system at Holyrood which is currently skewed against independence voters.
		
Click to expand...

What do you think would be the effect on the total number of SNP seats if another independence party was formed? Would it split the pro-Indy vote in many constituencies and possibly allow Tory/Labour/Lib Dem gains at the expense of the SNP?


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## KenL (Mar 10, 2020)

Interesting first day in court for Salmond!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51707459


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What do you think would be the effect on the total number of SNP seats if another independence party was formed? Would it split the pro-Indy vote in many constituencies and possibly allow Tory/Labour/Lib Dem gains at the expense of the SNP?
		
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IMO the SNP vote would  drop slightly and the 'independent party' vote would rise.
At the moment The Greens are most independent voters favourite second vote but the independence/Green voters who dislike the SNP would obviously then have a second vote choice


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## DRW (Mar 10, 2020)

KenL said:



			Interesting first day in court for Salmond!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51707459

Click to expand...

I haven't on purpose read about AS case until it came to court and read that last night.

Was quite surprised by the number of cases and some of the places the 'events' took place.


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## patricks148 (Mar 10, 2020)

KenL said:



			Interesting first day in court for Salmond!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51707459

Click to expand...

utter scumbag....knew it before, not suprising me now either


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## MegaSteve (Mar 10, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			utter scumbag....knew it before, not suprising me now either
		
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Hopefully all those that contributed to the crowdfunding of his defence are already hanging their heads in shame...


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## patricks148 (Mar 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully all those that contributed to the crowdfunding of his defence are already hanging their heads in shame...
		
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cock will prob get legal aid


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## ger147 (Mar 23, 2020)

Salmond acquitted on all charges.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 23, 2020)

So it was all made up then ?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2020)

When I heard the first evidence I had my doubts. 

If and I will say if justice has been served then it's the correct decision.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Salmond acquitted on all charges.
		
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One person making it up, two people making it up? 

But 10 people making it? 

And NOT acquitted of all charges. 1 charge not proven.


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## ger147 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One person making it up, two people making it up?

But 10 people making it?

And NOT acquitted of all charges. 1 charge not proven.
		
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I didn't say found not guilty, I said acquitted.  An Acquittal results when a prosecutor fails to prove their case and that is the case on all the charges in this instance.

Re. 10 people making it up, I wasn't on the jury, merely commenting on the news he has been acquitted on all charges.


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## patricks148 (Mar 23, 2020)

l do hope the smarmy bugger doesn't try for Compo


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

Some of the charges were quite pathetic as the prosecutors went for the numbers game, serious mistake and skewed the case IMO.
I think if there had only been one or two charges we might have seen a different result.
Not proven rarely used nowadays, I believe the charge still stands and if any more evidence is found it can be re-opened.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

Surprised but do have faith in the Scottish legal system, everything hard to prove I suppose, case has gone under the radar with this virus hogging all news reports, didn't realise Eck thinks Sturgeon had some influence behind this case, master and apprentice relationship gone bad!

Salmond will be back in politics soon enough, out to burst Nicola's bubble maybe!


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Surprised *but do have faith in the Scottish legal system*, everything hard to prove I suppose, case has gone under the radar with this virus hogging all news reports, didn't realise Eck thinks Sturgeon had some influence behind this case, master and apprentice relationship gone bad!

Salmond will be back in politics soon enough, out to burst Nicola's bubble maybe!

Click to expand...

Best in the land, sadly the PF service is found very lacking.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Surprised but do have faith in the Scottish legal system, everything hard to prove I suppose, case has gone under the radar with this virus hogging all news reports, didn't realise Eck thinks Sturgeon had some influence behind this case, master and apprentice relationship gone bad!

Salmond will be back in politics soon enough, out to burst Nicola's bubble maybe!

Click to expand...

Doubt it, he is pretty much unelectable now.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Doubt it, he is pretty much unelectable now.
		
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Given populism in politics I don't think it will necessarily harm, look at No.10 and White House.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Given populism in politics I don't think it will necessarily harm, look at No.10 and White House.
		
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Very sad but true.
Nicola also has a few questions to answer about her version of the timeline leading up to the initial charges mess.
The head of the Scottish Civil Service's coat must also be on a shoogly peg.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Best in the land, sadly the PF service is found very lacking.....
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Scottish law is probably the best you have in Scotland.


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## KenL (Mar 24, 2020)

The Times are reporting that another enquiry is possible relating to claims from at least 4 women from his time as an MP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 24, 2020)

KenL said:



			The Times are reporting that another enquiry is possible relating to claims from at least 4 women from his time as an MP.
		
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Ah the Times, are they not owned by the same newspaper group who broke the Tommy Sheridon story.


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## KenL (Mar 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah the Times, are they not owned by the same newspaper group who broke the Tommy Sheridon story.

Click to expand...

Not sure that has anything to do with anything!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 24, 2020)

First of what I think will be many legal complaints against a journalist made by ex lawyer Salmon.
There must be many editors/journalists quaking in their boots.
I think he will end up a very rich man by the end of this process.


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## patricks148 (Mar 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			First of what I think will be many legal complaints against a journalist made by ex lawyer Salmon.
There must be many editors/journalists quaking in their boots.
I think he will end up a very rich man by the end of this process.
		
Click to expand...

maybe, but he shouldn't if he had one ounce of decency, showed he hasn't when he got legal costs and damages from the last court case


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 24, 2020)

The infighting will soon begin and as long as it damages the SNP I'll be one happy Scotsman.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 31, 2020)

I am no great fan of Salmond but it seems that the collusion of Westminster, Holyrood/SNP, Scottish Civil Service, MI5, Scottish Prosecution Service, Scottish Police [40 police assigned to the case], Scotland Yard, 99% of Scottish newspaper press, BBC Scotland and a huge percentage of Scottish multi media were unable to build a strong enough case to convince  a civil court and then 15 jury members of a criminal court.

Questions should be asked.


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## KenL (Mar 31, 2020)

Yes, questions need to be asked how he got off with it.  No way were all those people telling fibs!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 31, 2020)

KenL said:



			Yes, questions need to be asked how he got off with it.  No way were all those people telling fibs!
		
Click to expand...

Clearly some of the WhatsApp group of 9 were as one charge was dropped before the start of proceedings.
In the main attempted rape charge the woman was not even in Bute House on that day, as two of the three witnesses stated. The third could not remember even though the woman's arm was in a sling at that time. I do not think she mentioned her injury in her witness statement
She was not signed in by security either.
To give her the benefit of doubt, it was a long time ago and she might have got her dates muddled.

As an affirmed anti SNP person I was wondering why you were following a lost cause [Salmon case] and not taking this opportunity to attack the SNP leadership. Open goal for you.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

KenL said:



			Yes, questions need to be asked how he got off with it.  No way were all those people telling fibs!
		
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He got off as their was not sufficient evidence unless you are suggesting the legal system in Scotland is corrupt or flawed.

Corroboration was lacking. 

In some case downright lies were uncovered.

Courts can only work on what evidence is available and lead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

Jackson Carlaw resigns as leader of Scottish Tories - he wasn't the person to lead the party.

Bring back wee Ruthie...your party needs you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

Nicola just eats them up and spits them out. 

Carlaw was always doomed when he refused to be critical of Cummings having stood very tall on his high horse regarding the Scottish Health civil servant who had to resign for visiting her holiday home in Fife.
His recent attempts to score petty political party points on the Scottish Governments covid plans were just pathetic.
Who will be next........not a great pool to select a new leader.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jackson Carlaw resigns as leader of Scottish Tories - he wasn't the person to lead the party.

Bring back wee Ruthie...your party needs you.
		
Click to expand...

Ruthie has eyes on the place where all failed politicians end up.
Something to do with a dead stoat on their shoulders.


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## KenL (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jackson Carlaw resigns as leader of Scottish Tories - he wasn't the person to lead the party.

Bring back wee Ruthie...your party needs you.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.  Not strong enough to that manipulative little horror.
She'll be found out soon enough.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ruthie has eyes on the place where all failed politicians end up.
Something to do with a dead stoat on their shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

you mean as in ... that fur's - er...mine?

But it could never be wee Roothie as she wouldn't swear an oath of fealty to Johnson.  I rather liked this typical one "I promise on my faith that I will in the future be faithful to you, never cause you harm and will observe my homage to you completely against all persons in good faith and without deceit."  Just can't see it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

KenL said:



			Agreed.  Not strong enough to that manipulative little horror.
She'll be found out soon enough.
		
Click to expand...

maybe - but if she is, as everything is relative, then another leader in another house may be on shakey ground...

Wondering if it was Sturgeon then who would it be?  Must be some ideas out there.  Unlikely to be Labour - and once more the Tories are leaderless.  Elections coming.  Scots electorate will make the judgments and have their say.


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## KenL (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			maybe - but if she is, as everything is relative, then another leader in another house may be on shakey ground...

Wondering if it was Sturgeon then who would it be?  Must be some ideas out there.  Unlikely to be Labour - and once more the Tories are leaderless.  Elections coming.  Scots electorate will make the judgments and have their say.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly, there is no reasonable alternative at the moment.  Without Ruth Conservative have lost their way.  Labour are finished in Scotland as those who voted for them have changed to SNP.
Scotland needs a unionist party to oppose SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

KenL said:



			Sadly, there is no reasonable alternative at the moment.  Without Ruth Conservative have lost their way.  Labour are finished in Scotland as those who voted for them have changed to SNP.
Scotland needs a unionist party to oppose SNP.
		
Click to expand...

Red Card Ross might be just the man to take the Scots Tories to a new level.
{If he decides to go on an Independence ticket] 

BTW Davidson's record was abysmal check the numbers.


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## KenL (Jul 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Red Card Ross might be just the man to take the Scots Tories to a new level.
{If he decides to go on an Independence ticket] 

BTW Davidson's record was abysmal check the numbers.
		
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Not taking anything you say seriously. 😜


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

I think whoever wins the battle between Wee Angus and Joanna Cherry will lead Scotland to independence.
My money is on Joanna.


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## KenL (Jul 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think whoever wins the battle between Wee Angus and Joanna Cherry will lead Scotland to independence.
My money is on Joanna.
		
Click to expand...

Independence will not happen.
A wee peak now but figures will never stack up.  Currency etc will stop it.


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## KenL (Jul 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think whoever wins the battle between Wee Angus and Joanna Cherry will lead Scotland to independence.
My money is on Joanna.
		
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Cherry is useless, but not as bad as Blackford.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2020)

Just heard Carlaw's Holyrood reply to the First Minister this afternoon.
Truly horrendous stuff, full of bile and spite.
No wonder he felt compelled to resign.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just heard Carlaw's Holyrood reply to the First Minister this afternoon.
Truly horrendous stuff, full of bile and spite.
No wonder he felt compelled to resign.
		
Click to expand...

Really? I watched the exchange. He nailed her on the the truth of prevalence statistic the SNP used and she admitted it at the second time of asking - NOTE, SHE ADMITTED IT. She spoke really well, the vast majority was around how the numbers have been driven down, and she was right to do so. As an aside, it might be worth remembering that with vast swathes of open land and a low population density that number was always going to be easier to control.

But a question can be asked that if the initial figures were false, as she admitted, how accurate are today's figures?

As for bile and spite? If you saw bile and spite in that exchange, a visit to Specsavers is in order.

And there's far worse comes out of Blackford's mouth on a regular basis. I like the FM but lets not get blinded by by too much hero worship.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2020)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ives-leadership-bid/ar-BB17oNy9?ocid=msedgdhp 

There you go Red Card Ross is a shoe in.
Only slight flaw in this great plan seems to be that first of all he has to be elected as an MSP. 
Directly elected Tory MSP's will be as rare as hens teeth come next election so he will probably have to sneek in on the list system.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ives-leadership-bid/ar-BB17oNy9?ocid=msedgdhp

There you go Red Card Ross is a shoe in.
Only slight flaw in this great plan seems to be that first of all he has to be elected as an MSP. 
Directly elected Tory MSP's will be as rare as hens teeth come next election so he will probably have to sneek in on the list system.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like Sturgeon speaking on UK politics when she's only FM in Scotland. Sod all to do with UK politics, just a county councillor.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Bit like Sturgeon speaking on UK politics when she's only FM in Scotland. Sod all to do with UK politics, just a county councillor.

Click to expand...

Ehhhh        So does that mean that Boris Johnson is not allowed to speak about American politics then.
What on earth has county councillors to do with this debate.
Very strange reply to a post about the prospective new Scots Tory leader.
Now will that be the 4th or 5th one under the first ministers reign.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Bit like Sturgeon speaking on UK politics when she's only FM in Scotland. Sod all to do with UK politics, just a county councillor.

Click to expand...

Aye but you are only kidding as you know that some decisions made at UK level impact funding to Holyrood


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye but you are only kidding as you know that some decisions made at UK level impact funding to Holyrood 

Click to expand...

Usually to the benefit of Scotland though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			Usually to the benefit of Scotland though.
		
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Mods please move this to the 'Laughter is the best Medicine' post


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye but you are only kidding as you know that some decisions made at UK level impact funding to Holyrood 

Click to expand...

Many, many things decided in Westminster impact funding in Scotland. However, if it falls within the remit of Westminster, tough. Personally, I believe Scotland should be independent. The reasons for the Act of Union are long since gone, ergo either leave or shut up. The vote said stay = shut up. You can't keep running to Westminster every time something doesn't go your way otherwise with the current crew you'd be there every 5 minutes.


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## Crazyface (Aug 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Many, many things decided in Westminster impact funding in Scotland. However, if it falls within the remit of Westminster, tough. Personally, I believe Scotland should be independent. The reasons for the Act of Union are long since gone, ergo either leave or shut up. The vote said stay = shut up. You can't keep running to Westminster every time something doesn't go your way otherwise with the current crew you'd be there every 5 minutes.
		
Click to expand...

If it were up to me I'd have cut them loose years ago, and all funding. Thing is, BJ doesn't seem to want to. Why is that?


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## Slab (Aug 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			If it were up to me I'd have cut them loose years ago, and all funding. Thing is, BJ doesn't seem to want to. Why is that?
		
Click to expand...

It's almost like the politicians know something you don't 😁


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			If it were up to me I'd have cut them loose years ago, and all funding. Thing is, BJ doesn't seem to want to. Why is that?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps because the majority of people in Scotland (ignore recent "polls" funded by independence supporters) are in favour of the union.
There is a mutually beneficial relationship between all parts of the UK.


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mods please move this to the 'Laughter is the best Medicine' post  

Click to expand...


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## KenL (Aug 1, 2020)

A quick look at these figures gives the Scotgov view of public finances.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers/
@Doon frae Troon . Thoughts on this?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			A quick look at these figures gives the Scotgov view of public finances.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers/
@Doon frae Troon . Thoughts on this?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.snp.org/gers-figures-explained/

https://www.scotfact.com/towards-an-english-gers 

BTW.......I have just bought you a new Ferrari as my friends and I think you need one.
The terms and conditions of how you repay the costs to me are in the post.
Say thank you as you would not have been able to do this without my help.


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## Grant85 (Aug 20, 2020)

So polling now consistently above 50% for Yes to the independence question, including one poll this week putting Yes on 55%, No on 45% - with Yes still winning even if all don't knows fell to the No side. (Yes 51%, no 42%, DK 7%).

SNP also polling well above 50%, which is remarkable 13 years into office.

I feel the die was cast when the UK Gov elected to plough ahead with a 'hard Brexit' in order to appease the right of their party and win seats in Brexit supporting parts of England. The Scottish position was rejected at every turn with zero attempt made to compromise or 'find a solution'. The Tories chose short term electoral success ahead of long term constitutional certainty.

Since then, the UK Government have looked increasingly incompetent compared with the Scottish government. in reality there hasn't been huge differences between the approaches to Covid and the Exams problems, but each time the Scottish Government are in trouble, they fess up, face the music and the UK Government bail them out with greater levels of incompetence.

UK Gov problems multiplied with the Cummings scandal, and who knows what is to come through this winter as Brexit moved back up the agenda.

So in short, the stars are aligning for a huge democratic mandate next May to have another referendum and this time Yes will likely begin by being well ahead in the polls, as opposed to 15% to 20% behind last time.

Clearly there are issues in terms of the currency, EU membership and for a 'leap of faith' element to this vote - but the No side are going to have much much less substance to their campaign this time around, given the water that has flowed under the constitutional bridge since 2014. Remember in 2014, the political background was that the Tories couldn't win a majority at Westminster and with Scottish votes, Ed Miliband could be PM in 6 months (the SNP had 6 Westminster seats in 2014). Since then the Tories have won 2 majorities and Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			So polling now consistently above 50% for Yes to the independence question, including one poll this week putting Yes on 55%, No on 45% - with Yes still winning even if all don't knows fell to the No side. (Yes 51%, no 42%, DK 7%).

SNP also polling well above 50%, which is remarkable 13 years into office.

I feel the die was cast when the UK Gov elected to plough ahead with a 'hard Brexit' in order to appease the right of their party and win seats in Brexit supporting parts of England. The Scottish position was rejected at every turn with zero attempt made to compromise or 'find a solution'. The Tories chose short term electoral success ahead of long term constitutional certainty.

Since then, the UK Government have looked increasingly incompetent compared with the Scottish government. in reality there hasn't been huge differences between the approaches to Covid and the Exams problems, but each time the Scottish Government are in trouble, they fess up, face the music and the UK Government bail them out with greater levels of incompetence.

UK Gov problems multiplied with the Cummings scandal, and who knows what is to come through this winter as Brexit moved back up the agenda.

So in short, the stars are aligning for a huge democratic mandate next May to have another referendum and this time Yes will likely begin by being well ahead in the polls, as opposed to 15% to 20% behind last time.

Clearly there are issues in terms of the currency, EU membership and for a 'leap of faith' element to this vote - but the No side are going to have much much less substance to their campaign this time around, given the water that has flowed under the constitutional bridge since 2014. Remember in 2014, the political background was that the Tories couldn't win a majority at Westminster and with Scottish votes, Ed Miliband could be PM in 6 months (the SNP had 6 Westminster seats in 2014). Since then the Tories have won 2 majorities and Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.
		
Click to expand...

Thinking to the Holyrood elections in May - and even forward to a possible IndyRef2 - I'm thinking of how the Conservatives might choose to utilise the great persuasive communicative skills of Johnson and the convincing arguments that his ministers will be able to present.  Seems a somewhat tricky one for Cummings to ponder upon

In the context of an Indyref2 held in the current parliament with Johnson as PM, you'd expect a Westminster Conservative and Unionist government to be campaigning flat out in Scotland for the Union. But it's at least debatable whether or not his and their presence would actually benefit the unionist side.  But if they didn't campaign, what would that then say to the Scottish electorate...


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## Paperboy (Aug 20, 2020)

You had your once in a life time vote, what 5 years ago? Surely you won't get another one for at least 15 years?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			You had your once in a life time vote, what 5 years ago? Surely you won't get another one for at least 15 years?
		
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Was there something in the referendum bill that said that it was once in a lifetime - not to be repeated for 20yrs or whatever.   If not then a week is a long time in politics.


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## azazel (Aug 20, 2020)

This once in a generation spiel is absolutely chronic. It wasn't a "thing" and anyway, a democratic country can't ever be bound by a soundbite from years ago. If that and attempting to gerrymander the franchise is all that's left to defend the union then it shows that we're only going one way.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			You had your once in a life time vote, what 5 years ago? Surely you won't get another one for at least 15 years?
		
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Oh dear [is that a gammon face?]...........btw 6 years ago now.





Support for Independence now running at 55% to 45%.
Interesting numbers because after the first referendum that was considered to be a HUGE runaway winning margin by some.


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## Paperboy (Aug 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear [is that a gammon face?]...........btw 6 years ago now.





Support for Independence now running at 55% to 45%.
Interesting numbers because after the first referendum that was considered to be a HUGE runaway winning margin by some.

Click to expand...

I asked two questions that makes me a gammon?
Happy for you to have another vote if the whole of the UK gets to vote aswell. If not you've had your vote get on with it.

I'd vote for remain, but I know a lot of people who'd vote out and wave you on your merry way.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			I asked two questions that makes me a gammon?
Happy for you to have another vote if the whole of the UK gets to vote aswell. If not you've had your vote get on with it.

I'd vote for remain, but I know a lot of people who'd vote out and wave you on your merry way.
		
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Not two of the most sensible questions though were they.

What has this do do with folk living on the sunny south coast of England.
Is it not up to the Scots to decide if they want independence or not
Does the UK intend to keep Scotland prisoners against the wishes of their people. Like Ireland, Australia, India, South Africa, Canada, New Zealand, Jamaica, USA, Etc etc etc etc etc.


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## Paperboy (Aug 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not two of the most sensible questions though were they.

What has this do do with folk living on the sunny south coast of England.
Is it not up to the Scots to decide if they want independence or not
Does the UK intend to keep Scotland prisoners against the wishes of their people. Like Ireland, Australia, India, South Africa, Canada, New Zealand, Jamaica, *USA*, Etc etc etc etc etc.
		
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Surely Scotland leaving effects the UK as a whole. So why shouldn't I get a say?

Not too sure your history is right though. Thought USA was very independent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 20, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			I asked two questions that makes me a gammon?
Happy for you to have another vote if the whole of the UK gets to vote aswell. If not you've had your vote get on with it.

I'd vote for remain, but I know a lot of people who'd vote out and wave you on your merry way.
		
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An all-UK vote on Scotland's place in the union is another load of nonsense if you think about it for a moment or two.  And so Scotland voted to Remain and rUK voted for Scotland to Leave? You can't kick a country out of the UK against the will of it's electorate (notwithstanding Scotland being dragged out of the EU against it's will despite the promises of the No campaign)


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## spongebob59 (Aug 20, 2020)

There's a bit of a Twitter storm going on Andrew Neil's feed



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296521338341990402


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

azazel said:



			This once in a generation spiel is absolutely chronic. It wasn't a "thing" and anyway, a democratic country can't ever be bound by a soundbite from years ago. If that and attempting to gerrymander the franchise is all that's left to defend the union then it shows that we're only going one way.
		
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The "one chance" "once in a lifetime" were SNP quotes.

Current polls are paid for by independence supporting outfits like wings over Scotland at a prime time for stirring up support and sadly anti-English hatred.

I still believe that it would be another no vote if it happened, not that it should.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			The "one chance" "once in a lifetime" were SNP quotes.

Current polls are paid for by independence supporting outfits like wings over Scotland at a prime time for stirring up support and sadly anti-English hatred.

I still believe that it would be another no vote if it happened, not that it should.
		
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Using your logic the old polls that had the naesayers in a majority must have been wrong as well. 

All polls are independent, the questions they ask can influence opinion.
No poll since March has supported staying in the UK, whoever they were commissioned by.

Do you still support your long held stance in support for the rights for the majority of Scots people.


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## azazel (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			The "one chance" "once in a lifetime" were SNP quotes.

Current polls are paid for by independence supporting outfits like wings over Scotland at a prime time for stirring up support and sadly anti-English hatred.

I still believe that it would be another no vote if it happened, not that it should.
		
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Even if Salmond, Sturgeon or whoever suggested such a thing, so what? People can change their minds and if a party stands for election with a referendum in their manifesto and wins that election then anything said or done years earlier is irrelevant. It's a really, really desperate excuse for not having another vote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

Boris found at last..........carry on camping in a three bed holiday cottage.
Military looking tent in garden for security men [probably]
Via Maley Dale so probably a pack of lies.
I do wish he would visit Scotland more often, especially with a microphone in his hands, the gift that keeps giving.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

azazel said:



			Even if Salmond, Sturgeon or whoever suggested such a thing, so what? People can change their minds and if a party stands for election with a referendum in their manifesto and wins that election then anything said or done years earlier is irrelevant. It's a really, really desperate excuse for not having another vote.
		
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The continual unrest is not doing Scotland any favours.

Asking 1000 people (perhaps partially chosen to suit) is not the same as asking millions of people.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

azazel said:



			Even if Salmond, Sturgeon or whoever suggested such a thing, so what? People can change their minds and if a party stands for election with a referendum in their manifesto and wins that election then anything said or done years earlier is irrelevant. It's a really, really desperate excuse for not having another vote.
		
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It is the only 'positive' that the Scottish unionists can cling on to.
Absolutely no relevance to what is actually happening nowadays in Scotland.
If this is their first and main argument it smacks of desperation.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

One opportunity!


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## Grant85 (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			One opportunity!
	View attachment 32114

Click to expand...

sorry Ken, didn't realise democracy died on 19th September 2014. 

The SNP have gone to the polls now in 2016, 2017 and 2019 with a referendum mandate in their manifesto. Each time they have won those elections conclusively. The Scottish Parliament, elected in 2016, has a majority of pro-independence members. The Scottish MPs elected to the house of commons are almost all pro independence. 

Ultimately if the action from Westminster is to continue to ignore and dismiss Scottish democracy, they are making the SNPs case for them and I think we will only see these poll numbers strengthen.


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boris found at last..........carry on camping in a three bed holiday cottage.
Military looking tent in garden for security men [probably]
Via Maley Dale so probably a pack of lies.
I do wish he would visit Scotland more often, especially with a microphone in his hands, the gift that keeps giving.
		
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Military don’t protect politicians nirmally, why do you insist on making things up.


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## azazel (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Boris found at last..........carry on camping in a three bed holiday cottage.
Military looking tent in garden for security men [probably]
Via Maley Dale so probably a pack of lies.
I do wish he would visit Scotland more often, especially with a microphone in his hands, the gift that keeps giving.
		
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Avoiding the question isn’t even remotely the same as engaging in debate or attempting to win the argument, it’s just sticking your fingers in your ears and going “lalalalalalalala”.
It can’t be denied that there’s a (growing) appetite for independence and ignoring that is going to do nothing to prevent it. Look at all the recent opinion polls - across a range of polling companies - and the trend is all one way.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			sorry Ken, didn't realise democracy died on 19th September 2014. 

The SNP have gone to the polls now in 2016, 2017 and 2019 with a referendum mandate in their manifesto. Each time they have won those elections conclusively. The Scottish Parliament, elected in 2016, has a majority of pro-independence members. The Scottish MPs elected to the house of commons are almost all pro independence. 

Ultimately if the action from Westminster is to continue to ignore and dismiss Scottish democracy, they are making the SNPs case for them and I think we will only see these poll numbers strengthen.
		
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Have you considered that some vote SNP to strengthen Scotlands position within the union rather than assuming they are a yes vote.

I really fear for the austerity Scotland would have to go through if independent.  Scot gov own figures are not looking good for Scotland as an independent country.


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## Grant85 (Aug 21, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			There's a bit of a Twitter storm going on Andrew Neil's feed



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296521338341990402

Click to expand...

I believe the franchise from 2014 is appropriate. Basically all people over the age of 16 with a right to live and work in Scotland and who are current residents. 

Opening it up to people who chose to move away or remain living outside of the country is not appropriate. The referendum impacts on them far less than people who live here. They will not be disadvantaged by any decision made in the referendum - they will certainly not lose any rights to live and work in Scotland post indy and almost certain that they could chose to retain a UK passport or have both a Scottish and UK passport. 

If George Galloway is correct and there are nearly 800,000 Scots living in the rest of the UK, that is a huge number (potentially 20% to 25% of the electorate) and one that could be decisive in a referendum. What if the result for Scottish residents was decisive one way, but the rUK residents swung it a different way? That would mean you had a population of 5 million people who were not in favour of the referendum result. 

The 2014 referendum was won by 384,000 votes. 

And then you would also have election rules governing media and spending that would now apply to the whole of the UK.


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## Grant85 (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			Have you considered that some vote SNP to strengthen Scotlands position within the union rather than assuming they are a yes vote.

I really fear for the austerity Scotland would have to go through if independent.  Scot gov own figures are not looking good for Scotland as an independent country.
		
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Currently independence now polling at a higher level than the SNP. That is a marked change from prior to 2014.

And whatever reasons people vote for the SNP, there is no doubting their policy of a referendum. They are not counting an SNP vote as a vote for independence and there is no chance of the SNP trying to declare independence without winning a referendum. They are very clear about their policy to have a further choice, which now looks like it is increasingly popular here.

Not denying there aren't challenges, but Scotland would start life in a far better position than almost any other country who has ever declared independence. The benefit of being able to manage our own finances, make our own trade agreements (or elect to join the EU), set interest rates, corporation tax, set immigration policy etc. can put Scotland on a far greater path and I genuinely believe that within 5 to 10 years the economic case will have been made to the point that no one even remembers the potential risks that were being talked about.

At the moment huge swathes of policy are being set in Westminster by people who are openly hostile to the Scottish position and what is best for Scotland. We are being taken out of the EU, despite voting overwhelmingly to remain. Interest rates are set in London, most of the personal taxation system is set in London as is the corporate taxation system. The welfare system is set in London. VAT set in London, import / export decisions made in London etc etc. And an immigration system is being set in London, that could & is devastating Scottish rural and tourism economies who rely heavily on overseas staff.

Do you think these people will make the best decisions for Scotland when negotiating trade agreements with USA, China, india, the EU etc? Scots Whisky association (who were pro Union) have already made the point they are being sold down the river in US trade talks. Even with the best will in the world, a UK government consisting entirely of English MPs will not give as much consideration to Scotland as our own government would and could.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

Meanwhile - the chief negotiator for the EU that Scotland chose to remain in is today telling us that whilst there is progress in some technical areas - the likelihood of a trade deal looks unlikely.  In fact things seem to be going backwards - well with Frost leading the way - eyes on a role in a future government and doing the bidding of Johnson and Cummings and beholden to the ERG-types - hardly surprising and not exactly what the Leave campaign sold the country - something that the majority of Scots didn't buy.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

~60% of stuff made in Scotland is sold to rUK.  How would Scotland fare if they left the UK without a deal?


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## Grant85 (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			~60% of stuff made in Scotland is sold to rUK.  How would Scotland fare if they left the UK without a deal?
		
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Are you really suggesting the rUK would not trade with iScotland? 
What a lot of nonsense. 

At the moment the UK are heading for not trading with anybody much, so iScotland getting into the EU would give us a far greater trading basis than we might or might not have, depending on how stubborn and ignorant our crack team of UK negotiators are. 

And on the 60% figure... I'm not sure how reliable that is. How many lorries get counted at Gretna or Berwick? (that's zero btw). 

How many lorries drive from Scotland to Hull or Felixstowe for onward travel either in the same cargo or via a distribution centre for an international destination? I'm sure sufficient numbers to significantly reduce the 60% figure. 

So I'm personally sceptical of that 60% figure. Clearly still a significant trading partner, but probably not as significant and even less significant if we are putting barriers to EU trade as part of Brexit Britain.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.u...tistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Are you really suggesting the rUK would not trade with iScotland?
What a lot of nonsense.

At the moment the UK are heading for not trading with anybody much, so iScotland getting into the EU would give us a far greater trading basis than we might or might not have, depending on how stubborn and ignorant our crack team of UK negotiators are.

And on the 60% figure... I'm not sure how reliable that is. How many lorries get counted at Gretna or Berwick? (that's zero btw).

How many lorries drive from Scotland to Hull or Felixstowe for onward travel either in the same cargo or via a distribution centre for an international destination? I'm sure sufficient numbers to significantly reduce the 60% figure.

So I'm personally sceptical of that 60% figure. Clearly still a significant trading partner, but probably not as significant and even less significant if we are putting barriers to EU trade as part of Brexit Britain.
		
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I suppose when the EU said they had no plans to expand and Spain being against Scotland joining even if there was an expansion is irrelevant.

Old news havnt heard any different from the EU.


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## PieMan (Aug 21, 2020)

Scotland trade with rUK was more than 60% in 2018 apparently, according to Scottish Government own export figures published end January 2020.

I got that from GOV.UK. I would imagine they're available on Scottish Government website too.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 21, 2020)

This still rumbling!!!

Debating with someone who can't putt with a flag in and takes it up with SG is the equivalent to talking to a brick wall in my eyes.

Independence will come.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			This still rumbling!!!

Debating with someone who can't putt with a flag in and takes it up with SG is the equivalent to talking to a brick wall in my eyes.

Independence will come.
		
Click to expand...

If I wasn't so polite I'd be telling you off right now...

Also, you are hardly the voice of reason on here.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

UK/EU Referendum......Brits living in The EU cannot vote in this referendum.

Scotland/UK referendum.....Scots living in the UK could vote in this referendum.

Westminster Chief speak with forked tongue


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.u...tistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

Click to expand...

Do you seriously suggest that the RumpUK would not trade with Scotland.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously suggest that the RumpUK would not trade with Scotland. 

Click to expand...

There might not be a full free trade agreement as nobody knows.

Huge UK wide  presence providing many jobs in Scotland too, some of that would go no doubt.

I really fear that Scotland would become a back water if independent.  The leaving the EU as the reason for another vote is a farce, especially if the EU are not immediately welcoming.  Some other countries are not that happy in EU either, look at how Italy felt let down at the start of lockdown.  

Figures (yes ScotGov figures) show a massive deficit and this would add to the difficulty of joining the EU as well as Spain's resistance.

Tell me an advantage of being independent other that the romantic FREEDOM idea?

SNP are absolutely crap at running the country apart from the things brought in and financed by Barnet such as free prescriptions, free travel, free uni education etc.  Without the additional funding (yes Scots get more money handed to them per person than England & Wales) provided by the UK there is no way, in my opinion, that this could be maintained.

Why change things?  It's not actually broke at the moment.

ps let's not forget furlough financed by  the whole UK machine at the moment, could an independent Scotland have financed this? The old farts should also be concerned about pensions.  One of mine is a UK civil service backed one and I am worried about that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			There might not be a full free trade agreement as nobody knows.

Huge UK wide  presence providing many jobs in Scotland too, some of that would go no doubt.

I really fear that Scotland would become a back water if independent.  The leaving the EU as the reason for another vote is a farce, especially if the EU are not immediately welcoming.  Some other countries are not that happy in EU either, look at how Italy felt let down at the start of lockdown.

Figures (yes ScotGov figures) show a massive deficit and this would add to the difficulty of joining the EU as well as Spain's resistance.

Tell me an advantage of being independent other that the romantic FREEDOM idea?

SNP are absolutely crap at running the country apart from the things brought in and financed by Barnet such as free prescriptions, free travel, free uni education etc.  Without the additional funding (yes Scots get more money handed to them per person than England & Wales) provided by the UK there is no way, in my opinion, that this could be maintained.

Why change things?  It's not actually broke at the moment.

ps let's not forget furlough financed by  the whole UK machine at the moment, could an independent Scotland have financed this? The old farts should also be concerned about pensions.  One of mine is a UK civil service backed one and I am worried about that.
		
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Oh dear ...Now breath.
One of my pensions is a English local authority one and I know the law.
An advantage would be not paying for nuclear weapons or the Birmingham to London rail improvements.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK/EU Referendum......Brits living in The EU cannot vote in this referendum.

Scotland/UK referendum.....Scots living in the UK could vote in this referendum.

Westminster Chief speak with forked tongue 

Click to expand...

As I live in England I would not get a vote.  However as I live in England I am not impacted by Scotland leaving the UK as I would be were I resident in Scotland.  Therefore as much as my being Scottish might have me thinking that a _should _have a vote on the future of my country - I am reconciled with the thought that it is right that I don't.  If I want a vote - then I move to Scotland.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear ...Now breath.
One of my pensions is a English local authority one and I know the law.
An advantage would be not paying for nuclear weapons or the Birmingham to London rail improvements.
		
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I am totally in favour of maintaining nuclear weapons.


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## KenL (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I live in England I would not get a vote.  However as I live in England I am not impacted by Scotland leaving the UK as I would be were I resident in Scotland.  Therefore as much as my being Scottish might have me thinking that a _should _have a vote on the future of my country - I am reconciled with the thought that it is right that I don't.  If I want a vote - then I move to Scotland.
		
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You would be if you were planning to live there in the future.
Why should someone who grew up in Scotland for say their first 40 years (paying tax and contributing to the local economy) then got a great opportunity to move to somewhere else for a part of their life with the intention of returning home at some point not get a vote?

Yet, someone living in Scotland for a short time, from say Europe (paying taxes etc) who came here to make some cash but planning to return to their routes get a vote.

That doesn't make sense.


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## IainP (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*UK/EU Referendum......Brits living in The EU cannot vote in this referendum.*

Scotland/UK referendum.....Scots living in the UK could vote in this referendum.

Westminster Chief speak with forked tongue 

Click to expand...

I was a Brit living in the EU at the time of the EU referendum and I was allowed to vote. Weren't you DfT? 🤷‍♂️


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear ...Now breath.
One of my pensions is a English local authority one and I know the law.
An advantage would be not paying for nuclear weapons or the Birmingham to London rail improvements.
		
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The amount of employment lost in Scotland IF it loses it nuclear base would possibly mean a major increase in taxes to pay for the lost income and building your own defence industry from scratch.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			If I wasn't so polite I'd be telling you off right now...

Also, you are hardly the voice of reason on here.
		
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I'm quite thick skinned and don't take offence easily. Fill your boots kind sir.

I don't ever claim to be the voice of reason but i know things! 

😁


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## Grant85 (Aug 22, 2020)

KenL said:



			There might not be a full free trade agreement as nobody knows.
		
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Nobody knows. Exactly. 

It's 2025, what trade agreements does Scotland (as part of the UK) have in place? 
Nobody knows. 

Are those trade agreements focused on financial services and pharmaceuticals or do they focus on food, drink, energy and tourism? 
Nobody knows. 

How expensive will it be for highland hotels to hire staff when there isn't a steady stream of European students and young people spending their summers in Scotland because it was too much hassle to apply for a visa? 
Nobody knows. 

anyway, I'm out. We will never change each others minds, but ultimately I think it won't be long before we see what will transpire in our small countries future.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2020)

IainP said:



			I was a Brit living in the EU at the time of the EU referendum and I was allowed to vote. Weren't you DfT? 🤷‍♂️
		
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Yes, but I am sure you are aware that Brits living in EU countries outside of the UK were denied a vote. [Desperate Dan stuff]


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2020)

KenL said:



			I am totally in favour of maintaining nuclear weapons.
		
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I am not exactly surprised by that response.


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## KenL (Aug 22, 2020)

This video is worth a watch whatever your view...

RT UK (@RTUKnews) tweeted at 5:10 pm on Fri, Aug 21, 2020:
.@georgegalloway says any vote on #independence should be decided by ALL Scots - and @michaelgove seems to agree... Do you?

#GeorgeGalloway is free to #QuestionMore on RT. https://t.co/298qYRCZ5l
(



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296841994312982529)

Get the official Twitter app at https://twitter.com/download?s=13


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2020)

When the unionista start quoting cat man Galloway you just know how absolutely desperate they are becoming.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278296164551536641
This made me laugh, I thought it must be a parody and then I thought again.
Warning some sweary words in a few of the comments.


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## Hobbit (Aug 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, but I am sure you are aware that Brits living in EU countries outside of the UK were denied a vote. [Desperate Dan stuff]
		
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LOLOLOLOL... What the law said and what actually happened are, possibly, very different things. There were just over 240k registered UK expats in Spain at the time of the Brexit referendum and an estimated 750k in total. I wonder how the 510k voted?

Of the guys and girls I used to golf with and play bowls with, who had the vote, almost all of them voted Remain. Look at that percentage around the EU countries and I wonder what the vote truly looked like from those that didn't live in the UK but wanted to keep their tax affairs and healthcare under the table? And dodging tax in both countries whilst maintaining the ability to use the NHS is the major reason those people speak of.

Who knows what the (exact) reality is???


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## PNWokingham (Aug 22, 2020)

i would hope that Scotland vote to remain, as they did last time. But i do not believe there should be another vote for "a generation", which was agreed by all last time - that means another 15 years or so. And that should give the SNP plenty of time to answer the rather fundamental questions of what happens if they leave - key off the top of my head: 
1. Taking their share of UK debt - how? 
2. Budget deficits and financing them - they are not too hot on this
3. Currency? What, when, how...A new Scottish Treasury Department
4. Borrowing needs - need a credit rating and access to the capital markets 
5. Trade agreements with other countries - including the rest of the UK that account for 60%+ of current exports - obviously this will end if Scotland join the EU
6. EU membership? Yes - if so how? What about the fiscal rules for joing in relation to debt-to-GDP, budget deficit, Currency (whatever that is for a new Scotland) stability, rules on long-term interste rates (so Sctotland will have had to borrow in capital markets and have historty here) etc





















;


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## spongebob59 (Aug 22, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i would hope that Scotland vote to remain, as they did last time. But i do not believe there should be another vote for "a generation", which was agreed by all last time - that means another 15 years or so. And that should give the SNP plenty of time to answer the rather fundamental questions of what happens if they leave - key off the top of my head:
1. Taking their share of UK debt - how?
2. Budget deficits and financing them - they are not too hot on this
3. Currency? What, when, how...A new Scottish Treasury Department
4. Borrowing needs - need a credit rating and access to the capital markets
5. Trade agreements with other countries - including the rest of the UK that account for 60%+ of current exports - obviously this will end if Scotland join the EU
6. EU membership? Yes - if so how? What about the fiscal rules for joing in relation to debt-to-GDP, budget deficit, Currency (whatever that is for a new Scotland) stability, rules on long-term interste rates (so Sctotland will have had to borrow in capital markets and have historty here) etc





















;
		
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AN asking some of the same questions


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297258227382587392


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## KenL (Aug 22, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i would hope that Scotland vote to remain, as they did last time. But i do not believe there should be another vote for "a generation", which was agreed by all last time - that means another 15 years or so. And that should give the SNP plenty of time to answer the rather fundamental questions of what happens if they leave - key off the top of my head: 
1. Taking their share of UK debt - how? 
2. Budget deficits and financing them - they are not too hot on this
3. Currency? What, when, how...A new Scottish Treasury Department
4. Borrowing needs - need a credit rating and access to the capital markets 
5. Trade agreements with other countries - including the rest of the UK that account for 60%+ of current exports - obviously this will end if Scotland join the EU
6. EU membership? Yes - if so how? What about the fiscal rules for joing in relation to debt-to-GDP, budget deficit, Currency (whatever that is for a new Scotland) stability, rules on long-term interste rates (so Sctotland will have had to borrow in capital markets and have historty here) etc





















;
		
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Bravo!


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 23, 2020)

I love it when Brexiters start using economic arguments as a reason to keep a union of countries together.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 23, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297288034665234433


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I love it when Brexiters start using economic arguments as a reason to keep a union of countries together.
		
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Game set and match............


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## KenL (Aug 23, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297305759424958469
Finances a disaster since SNP took power and clueless on currency.


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## Hobbit (Aug 23, 2020)

KenL said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297305759424958469
Finances a disaster since SNP took power and clueless on currency.
		
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That’s a very mild understatement. Anyone who thinks they can spend as they do, in a normal world, needs their head examined..... but at least they are well within the EU criteria to rejoin.... NOT.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			You would be if you were planning to live there in the future.
Why should someone who grew up in Scotland for say their first 40 years (paying tax and contributing to the local economy) then got a great opportunity to move to somewhere else for a part of their life with the intention of returning home at some point not get a vote?

Yet, someone living in Scotland for a short time, from say Europe (paying taxes etc) who came here to make some cash but planning to return to their routes get a vote.

That doesn't make sense.
		
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So you think that someone who has not lived in Scotland since 1984 and whose parents are no longer about should get a vote in a referendum? That someone who has no understanding of the consequences and impact of the decisions the Scottish government has made over the last 20+ yrs should get a vote?


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## KenL (Aug 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you think that someone who has not lived in Scotland since 1984 and whose parents are no longer about should get a vote in a referendum? That someone who has no understanding of the consequences and impact of the decisions the Scottish government has made over the last 20+ yrs should get a vote?
		
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If they were brought here then yes it do.
I would expect people would make their own choice about whether to take part or not.
My mate has lived in Yorkshire for about 25 years.  He will move back when he retired in a few years.  He deserves a vote, not that there will be one anytime soon.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			If they were brought here then yes it do.
I would expect people would make their own choice about whether to take part or not.
My mate has lived in Yorkshire for about 25 years.  He will move back when he retired in a few years.  He deserves a vote, not that there will be one anytime soon.
		
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How would you set the criteria? Would you only have to be born in Scotland?

Scotland can set it's own rules but in general terms I'm firmly against this method, I wouldn't give expats the vote in elections for example. People living outside the country, military, govt employees and similar excepted, making decisions that wont affect them is not right imo. In terms of Scotland you will get vehemently patriotic Scots living in benidorm, I'm stretching a point here 😁, voting for the romantic ideal of independence when the outcome has no tangible impact on them. It's a risk free vote for them, not for those living there.

Vote where you live, not where you did live or might possibly live.


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## Hobbit (Aug 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How would you set the criteria? Would you only have to be born in Scotland?

Scotland can set it's own rules but in general terms I'm firmly against this method, I wouldn't give expats the vote in elections for example. People living outside the country, military, govt employees and similar excepted, making decisions that wont affect them is not right imo. In terms of Scotland you will get vehemently patriotic Scots living in benidorm, I'm stretching a point here 😁, voting for the romantic ideal of independence when the outcome has no tangible impact on them. It's a risk free vote for them, not for those living there.

Vote where you live, not where you did live or might possibly live.
		
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How about being able to vote when an issue, or issues, impacts on someone?

My state pension, any rises, being frozen or the triple lock will affect me. Access to the NHS, especially for someone who’s contributed towards it for over 40 years is also an issue for expats.

Many, many expats have children in the U.K., and do have concerns with the direction the U.K. takes.

Currently, expats get to vote for 15 years after they leave. I’m not sure that having so few expat voters voting in their last constituency makes even a ripple to the outcome in any given election - how many constituencies are won by a few votes?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 23, 2020)

My brother was born in Wales and spent the first two months of his life there.
The other 73 years and  7 months he has lived in Scotland.
Does he get a vote in the Welsh Independence Referendum [when it comes]


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			How about being able to vote when an issue, or issues, impacts on someone?

My state pension, any rises, being frozen or the triple lock will affect me. Access to the NHS, especially for someone who’s contributed towards it for over 40 years is also an issue for expats.

Many, many expats have children in the U.K., and do have concerns with the direction the U.K. takes.

Currently, expats get to vote for 15 years after they leave. I’m not sure that having so few expat voters voting in their last constituency makes even a ripple to the outcome in any given election - how many constituencies are won by a few votes?
		
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You haven't convinced me I'm afraid. What happens in lots of other countries affects us in the UK but that doesn't mean I should get a vote in their affairs. You moved to another country, you have to accept your say is now gone.

In terms of their kids, you can't extend back that way. That is tenuous. What if you don't have kids but have friends, does that count? It just can't. 

Certain issues will still ripple across to you but you have to accept that as part of your move away. You can't have the whole cake.

In terms of your last point, some certainly are, most definitely at the last election. Equally, if your vote wasn't that important you would not be defending it now 😁


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## Jacko_G (Aug 23, 2020)

FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM 

END ENGLISH RULE


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## Fade and Die (Aug 23, 2020)

I hate the xenophobic Scot Gnats and any other extremists from any side who can’t see that nothing is born out of destruction of nations.

Talking of the gnats...how many caught this story?....STV had to pull a tv ad a few weeks back, that featured young children thanking wee Jimmie for saving them from Corona, I kid you not, one little boy actually said “on behalf of all Scottish children, thank you Nicola Sturgeon for saving us from Covid”. There were a ton of complaints, many of whom compared it to the type of thing you’d see in North Korea, and they weren’t wrong.
luckily someone grabbed it before it was pulled....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264586550215610369


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## Jacko_G (Aug 23, 2020)

FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM


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## spongebob59 (Aug 23, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I hate the xenophobic Scot Gnats and any other extremists from any side who can’t see that nothing is born out of destruction of nations.

Talking of the gnats...how many caught this story?....STV had to pull a tv ad a few weeks back, that featured young children thanking wee Jimmie for saving them from Corona, I kid you not, one little boy actually said “on behalf of all Scottish children, thank you Nicola Sturgeon for saving us from Covid”. There were a ton of complaints, many of whom compared it to the type of thing you’d see in North Korea, and they weren’t wrong.
luckily someone grabbed it before it was pulled....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264586550215610369

Click to expand...

Is that her on the bed too 😂.


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## KenL (Aug 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM 

END ENGLISH RULE
		
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Oh be quiet.  I preferred when you took a couple of months off.

It most certainly is not English rule, it is a 300 year old union, from which everyone benefits.


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## KenL (Aug 23, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I hate the xenophobic Scot Gnats and any other extremists from any side who can’t see that nothing is born out of destruction of nations.

Talking of the gnats...how many caught this story?....STV had to pull a tv ad a few weeks back, that featured young children thanking wee Jimmie for saving them from Corona, I kid you not, one little boy actually said “on behalf of all Scottish children, thank you Nicola Sturgeon for saving us from Covid”. There were a ton of complaints, many of whom compared it to the type of thing you’d see in North Korea, and they weren’t wrong.
luckily someone grabbed it before it was pulled....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264586550215610369

Click to expand...

That really p*ssed me off.  Scotland does not have a good covid record compared to other small countries.

Thanks for posting BTW.


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## Hobbit (Aug 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You haven't convinced me I'm afraid. What happens in lots of other countries affects us in the UK but that doesn't mean I should get a vote in their affairs. You moved to another country, you have to accept your say is now gone.

In terms of their kids, you can't extend back that way. That is tenuous. What if you don't have kids but have friends, does that count? It just can't.

Certain issues will still ripple across to you but you have to accept that as part of your move away. You can't have the whole cake.

In terms of your last point, some certainly are, most definitely at the last election. Equally, if your vote wasn't that important you would not be defending it now 😁
		
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My say isn't gone. It has 13 years to run before I can no longer vote. As it is I wouldn't vote if I felt there was nothing in a manifesto that affected me but I would vote if there were major changes around pensions. Having paid into the system for 40 years, why can't I have a say on my pension rights? And if that say is via the ballot box, I'll vote if I feel its appropriate.

Why is it tenuous having a concern for where my children are and the society they live in? I presume you care very much for where your children will grow up, why can't I?

As for the whole cake; there's an awful lot of things I can't access, and I have no problem with that. I'm not asking for a "whole cake." Do you begrudge me my pension?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My say isn't gone. It has 13 years to run before I can no longer vote. As it is I wouldn't vote if I felt there was nothing in a manifesto that affected me but I would vote if there were major changes around pensions. Having paid into the system for 40 years, why can't I have a say on my pension rights? And if that say is via the ballot box, I'll vote if I feel its appropriate.

Why is it tenuous having a concern for where my children are and the society they live in? I presume you care very much for where your children will grow up, why can't I?

As for the whole cake; there's an awful lot of things I can't access, and I have no problem with that. I'm not asking for a "whole cake." Do you begrudge me my pension?
		
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At the time of the referendum I argued that I should get a vote as my elderly mother was still alive and that she could be significantly affected by the outcome. The rest of my family would be able to sort themselves one way or the other.  I am not so sure that I should get a vote today - but if my mother was still with us I might still be arguing for a vote - especially as a move back to Scotland in the next couple of years is still on the cards for us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I hate the xenophobic Scot Gnats and any other extremists from any side who can’t see that nothing is born out of destruction of nations.

Talking of the gnats...how many caught this story?....STV had to pull a tv ad a few weeks back, that featured young children thanking wee Jimmie for saving them from Corona, I kid you not, one little boy actually said “on behalf of all Scottish children, thank you Nicola Sturgeon for saving us from Covid”. There were a ton of complaints, many of whom compared it to the type of thing you’d see in North Korea, and they weren’t wrong.
luckily someone grabbed it before it was pulled....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264586550215610369

Click to expand...

Oh dear...............You appear to be unaware that STV [like 95% of Scottish MSM] are not supporters of Independence.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My say isn't gone. It has 13 years to run before I can no longer vote. As it is I wouldn't vote if I felt there was nothing in a manifesto that affected me but I would vote if there were major changes around pensions. Having paid into the system for 40 years, why can't I have a say on my pension rights? And if that say is via the ballot box, I'll vote if I feel its appropriate.

Why is it tenuous having a concern for where my children are and the society they live in? I presume you care very much for where your children will grow up, why can't I?

As for the whole cake; there's an awful lot of things I can't access, and I have no problem with that. I'm not asking for a "whole cake." Do you begrudge me my pension?
		
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Obviously this is a hypothetical discussion so your rights are still there. I'm not El Presidente yet 😁.

Clearly you/i will always have concerns about our kids but that doesn't give us the right to vote in a country where you no longer live. If my son moves to Australia with work I don't get to vote there in order to help him out. Our kids have to look after themselves, make their own decisions. 

Your pension is something you have paid into, that is enshrined. Your vote, imo, is about the here and now. As I've said, losing your vote, you obviously don't for 15 yrs right now, is part of the equation of the move for me. 

Churros or sponge cake, not churros and sponge cake 😁, swap sponge cake for Dundee cake if you want the analogy for indy ref2.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 24, 2020)

GIVE BACK OUR OIL, OUR FISHING, OUR RENEWABLES, OUR WHISKY, OUR IRN BRU, OUR SQUARE SLICE, OUR PORRIDGE, OUR GREGGS, OUR HIGHLAND CATTLE, OUR TV, OUR TELEPHONE, OUR PENICILLIN, DOLLY THE SHEEP, OUR SMOKIES.

YOU CAN KEEP ALAN HANSEN THOUGH HE'S A FUD.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the time of the referendum I argued that I should get a vote as my elderly mother was still alive and that she could be significantly affected by the outcome. The rest of my family would be able to sort themselves one way or the other.  I am not so sure that I should get a vote today - but if my mother was still with us I might still be arguing for a vote - especially as a move back to Scotland in the next couple of years is still on the cards for us.
		
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I'm really struggling with this argument. Your mother would have had a vote, that is how it works. Why should offspring get one because of the knock on impact? How wide does the net spread? Immediate family, cousins, aunties and uncles? 

In terms of your last point you can't argue for a vote because of something you might do. What if lots of people were given a vote because they 'might' move to Scotland. The potential for abuse there is massive. 

If you want a vote in an election of a particular country then live there. It is pretty straightforward.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm really struggling with this argument. Your mother would have had a vote, that is how it works. Why should offspring get one because of the knock on impact? How wide does the net spread? Immediate family, cousins, aunties and uncles?

In terms of your last point you can't argue for a vote because of something you might do. What if lots of people were given a vote because they 'might' move to Scotland. The potential for abuse there is massive.

If you want a vote in an election of a particular country then live there. It is pretty straightforward.
		
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My thinking in 2014 was that independence could *very *significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially.  As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if _they _wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end.  However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error).   Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then.  It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more.  The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My thinking in 2014 was that independence could *very *significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially.  As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if _they _wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end.  However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error).   Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then.  It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more.  The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.
		
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Absolutely it would impact them, either way. There is no question about that. Doon and the SNP will tell you the impact of Indyref 1 is currently very negative, others will tell you independence will be damaging.

That doesn't mean you should have a say in what happens though, just because you have family there. I go back to my previous comment, it really is straightforward, if you want a say then move back. If you remain outside of Scotland then you just have to watch on like the rest of us.

Let's turn this into a golf analogy. Should I be able to vote at a club I used to be a member of? I've moved away, I'm no longer a member, I don't play there anymore but my FiL still plays there so any changes would affect him. Would you expect that?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Absolutely it would impact them, either way. There is no question about that. Doon and the SNP will tell you the impact of Indyref 1 is currently very negative, others will tell you independence will be damaging.

That doesn't mean you should have a say in what happens though, just because you have family there. I go back to my previous comment, it really is straightforward, if you want a say then move back. If you remain outside of Scotland then you just have to watch on like the rest of us.

Let's turn this into a golf analogy. Should I be able to vote at a club I used to be a member of? I've moved away, I'm no longer a member, I don't play there anymore but my FiL still plays there so any changes would affect him. Would you expect that?
		
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...I think you'll have read that I am very much less sure than I was in 2014 over whether or not I should get a vote in a future referendum; that today I tend to feel not - but if I did get a vote, then it should not be in the primary decision but somehow used to understand and maybe incorporate the feelings of the Scottish diaspora in the event of a very close vote either way.  

But I say that in the context of there being no referendum in the offing,  My thinking might change were one to be called - after all - it's my country too.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My thinking in 2014 was that independence could *very *significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially.  As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if _they _wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end.  However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error).   Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then.  It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more.  The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.
		
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We all feel differently.
In 2014 I posted off my vote in favour of Yes.
After I had posted my vote Cameron/Clegg an Miliband [plus a Big Gordon Broon Intervenshun] came up with a signed Vow to Scotland.
I would have changed my mind and voted No as I believed their Vow to Scotland.
Two days after that  and they have all completely backtracked and lied.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I think you'll have read that I am very much less sure than I was in 2014 over whether or not I should get a vote in a future referendum; that today I tend to feel not - but if I did get a vote, then it should not be in the primary decision but somehow used to understand and maybe incorporate the feelings of the Scottish diaspora in the event of a very close vote either way. 

But I say that in the context of there being no referendum in the offing,  My thinking might change were one to be called - after all - *it's my country too.*

Click to expand...

It is but you chose to move away. Elections around the world are pretty similar, you vote in the country you live in, clearly there are some caveats to this. This is not a uniquely British situation.

If you feel strongly about it then the option to move back is there. If you just feel you ought to get a vote because you have love for the motherland it does not work that way and I would be staggered if that ever changed.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I love it when Brexiters start using economic arguments as a reason to keep a union of countries together.
		
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wind your kneck in. I deliberately left out brexit comparisons, as it is is not relevant and a different topic - and i voted remain!


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## Robster59 (Aug 24, 2020)

KenL said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297305759424958469
Finances a disaster since SNP took power and clueless on currency.
		
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I've been saying a long time that the SNP have been writing cheques they can't cash.  In an effort to win the referendum they gave lots of things away to those living in Scotland. (Prescriptions, Hospital parking, tolls, etc.).  Now I'm not saying a lot of these things shouldn't be free but they have to be paid for somehow and without oil revenue, Scotland doesn't have the revenue to cover it.  I am paying more tax by living up here than I would if I lived in other parts of the UK.  But without funding from central Government, Scotland would be in a hell of a state financially.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is but you chose to move away. Elections around the world are pretty similar, you vote in the country you live in, clearly there are some caveats to this. This is not a uniquely British situation.

If you feel strongly about it then the option to move back is there. If you just feel you ought to get a vote because you have love for the motherland it does not work that way and I would be staggered if that ever changed.
		
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Remember - I chose to move away as there just weren't the jobs in Scotland in the early-mid 80s of the sort I was looking for (well not that were advertised in New Scientist  ).  So like generations of Scots before me I left Scotland to where I could get the work.  You are correct.  If I desperately want a vote then I buy a place in Scotland - which I might well do within the timescales of any further referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			wind your kneck in. I deliberately left out brexit comparisons, as it is is not relevant and a different topic - and i voted remain!
		
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Unfortunately what can't be put aside is the assertion made by the No campaign that Scots had to vote No to guarantee Scotland being part of the EU.  And that is where the Brexit cac (it means what you guess it means) hits the fan.


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## Hobbit (Aug 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Obviously this is a hypothetical discussion so your rights are still there. I'm not El Presidente yet 😁.

Clearly you/i will always have concerns about our kids but that doesn't give us the right to vote in a country where you no longer live. If my son moves to Australia with work I don't get to vote there in order to help him out. Our kids have to look after themselves, make their own decisions.

Your pension is something you have paid into, that is enshrined. Your vote, imo, is about the here and now. As I've said, losing your vote, you obviously don't for 15 yrs right now, is part of the equation of the move for me.

Churros or sponge cake, not churros and sponge cake 😁, swap sponge cake for Dundee cake if you want the analogy for indy ref2.
		
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You seem to be missing or avoiding the point. I do get the right to vote in a country in which I no longer live.

Also, my pension doesn’t enjoy the same protections that yours has. As things currently stand, mine will freeze in 2 years time but wouldn’t freeze if Brexit didn’t happen. Why? I have the benefit of a very decent private pension, but there's many that don’t.

In the last 20 years I paid almost £300k in income tax and NI, and over my working life a whole lot more. I would have happily paid more tax to help those in need. I’m now not an earner and ask the question where’s my return.

I would like to think that my contributions have in some small way benefited the U.K. but would, equally, ask it’s now time to return some of that. If I live another 15 years how about returning a £100k of the far more that was contributed? 

We’re getting off track here.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You seem to be missing or avoiding the point. I do get the right to vote in a country in which I no longer live.

Also, my pension doesn’t enjoy the same protections that yours has. As things currently stand, mine will freeze in 2 years time but wouldn’t freeze if Brexit didn’t happen. Why? I have the benefit of a very decent private pension, but there's many that don’t.

In the last 20 years I paid almost £300k in income tax and NI, and over my working life a whole lot more. I would have happily paid more tax to help those in need. I’m now not an earner and ask the question where’s my return.

I would like to think that my contributions have in some small way benefited the U.K. but would, equally, ask it’s now time to return some of that. If I live another 15 years how about returning a £100k of the far more that was contributed?

We’re getting off track here.
		
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I know you still get to vote, this is largely hypothetical in that I disagree that you should (it started with Scots no longer living in Scotland wanting to vote in Indyref2 but the concept is pretty much the same). I'm making the point contrary to the current rules. It isn't happening, it is just a discussion.

We all know that tax paid, not pensions, pays the here and now. You don't get to keep your proportion of it, it does not get ring faced. You pay your taxes, you benefit whilst you live in that country. If you leave then that is the end of it, pension apart, imo. You move to another country, you apply to vote there. Forget that you can influence the country you left, those days are gone.

You can apply the above to Scotland so we have only veered slightly, perhaps .

I see your side of this, I just don't agree with it. The rules are with you though and as Boris and I are not in the same Whatsapp group I don't think it is going to change soon. If we were there would also be a lot of of things I would be pestering him about before this


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## Jacko_G (Aug 24, 2020)

McGee's crispy rolls - stuff of dreams.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

An analysis and commentary that perhaps highlights why many Unionists would give the vote to Scots living in rUK and elsewhere in rWorld.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/63345/1/democraticaudit.com-Scots living overseas or elsewhere in the UK should have been given the right to vote in the independ.pdf


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2020)

You should only be able to Vote if you have a Scottish tax number...........that would decimate a fair few of the Conservative and Unionist Party votes.
No representation without taxation


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 24, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			McGee's crispy rolls - stuff of dreams.
		
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No the well fired ones though, that's Devils food.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No the well fired ones though, that's Devils food.
		
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I nice softish (not too hard crusty) Scottish morning roll is a thing of rare splendour.  The sort our local Newlands Home Bakery would sell...the local Coop ones were good also.  Somehow down south the equivalent 'bap' (what a horrid word) just isn't the same - and I don't know why.  The hard crusty ones I just can't be bothered with.


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## Robster59 (Aug 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No the well fired ones though, that's Devils food.
		
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I like the well fired ones.  But any of the morning rolls.  We tend to get them fresh from the local co-op.  The only issue is that they are off by the end of the day.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I like the well fired ones.  But any of the morning rolls.  We tend to get them fresh from the local co-op.  The only issue is that they are off by the end of the day.
		
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That's not the Mearns Rd shops one perchance? They are excellent.


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## Robster59 (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's not the Mearns Rd shops one perchance? They are excellent.
		
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It's the one in Harvie Avenue but I imagine they all come from the same source.


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## KenL (Aug 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should only be able to Vote if you have a Scottish tax number...........that would decimate a fair few of the Conservative and Unionist Party votes.
No representation without taxation 

Click to expand...

It would also rule out the spongers who don't pay tax.  I wonder who they vote for?


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## PNWokingham (Aug 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately what can't be put aside is the assertion made by the No campaign that Scots had to vote No to guarantee Scotland being part of the EU.  And that is where the Brexit cac (it means what you guess it means) hits the fan.
		
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had a feeling you would drag brexit in rather than have anything sensible to say about the very real issues that i raised. Maybe focus on the real issues and possible solutions that the SNIP seem to think are not relevant - after all, independance will allow you can then make your own laws and keep your oil revenue and,.... build your own government departments (maybe some jobs will cover a proportion of the jobs lost that will be moved back to the rest of the UK) that are needed for a newly independant country...and carry on paying for prescriptions, free university, and not have the nasty colonials from London disctating how you run things. Then all is good i suppose, apart from the very important things that could leave the country extremely vulnerable. But hey ho, they are obviously not important compared to anything said in the Brexit campaign that you can link to the issue.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			It would also rule out the spongers who don't pay tax.  I wonder who they vote for?
		
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ehhh.....you still have a tax number even if you do not pay tax.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's not the Mearns Rd shops one perchance? They are excellent.
		
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Our village shop sells lovely 'Glasgow' rolls.
Never heard that 'brand' until a couple of years ago.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297972624371458048
For those who think that Scottish Independence is not inevitable check the age groups.


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## Sweep (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297972624371458048
For those who think that Scottish Independence is not inevitable check the age groups.
		
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Ah, another poll. Never wrong.
It reminds me of our neighbour who couldn’t understand why they didn’t wait for all the old people to die before they brought in decimalisation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			had a feeling you would drag brexit in rather than have anything sensible to say about the very real issues that i raised. Maybe focus on the real issues and possible solutions that the SNIP seem to think are not relevant - after all, independance will allow you can then make your own laws and keep your oil revenue and,.... build your own government departments (maybe some jobs will cover a proportion of the jobs lost that will be moved back to the rest of the UK) that are needed for a newly independant country...and carry on paying for prescriptions, free university, and not have the nasty colonials from London disctating how you run things. Then all is good i suppose, apart from the very important things that could leave the country extremely vulnerable. But hey ho, they are obviously not important compared to anything said in the Brexit campaign that you can link to the issue.....
		
Click to expand...

You don't think that Brexit as a driver for a second referendum is not a real issue?  Yes there are significant issues that require very serious consideration and that will hold many back from voting 'Yes' - but there are other things _driving _a 'Yes' - and I suggest that one of the most significant is Brexit; how it has come about (and Johnson's part in that); what it says about a Scottish electorate voice in the UK, and what was previously asserted about remaining in the EU.

And why do you refer to them as SNIP?  I think it's easy enough to not make deliberate typos.


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## Paperboy (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You don't think that Brexit as a driver for a second referendum is not a real issue?  Yes there are significant issues that require very serious consideration and that will hold many back from voting 'Yes' - but there are other things _driving _a 'Yes' - and I suggest that one of the most significant is Brexit; how it has come about (and Johnson's part in that); what it says about a Scottish electorate voice in the UK, and what was previously asserted about remaining in the EU.

And why do you refer to them as SNIP?  I think it's easy enough to not make deliberate typos.
		
Click to expand...

All he's done is to quote what is in the threads title.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You don't think that Brexit as a driver for a second referendum is not a real issue?  Yes there are significant issues that require very serious consideration and that will hold many back from voting 'Yes' - but there are other things _driving _a 'Yes' - and I suggest that one of the most significant is Brexit; how it has come about (and Johnson's part in that); what it says about a Scottish electorate voice in the UK, and what was previously asserted about remaining in the EU.

And why do you refer to them as SNIP?  I think it's easy enough to not make deliberate typos.
		
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For my tuppence worth a combination of Farage/Johnson and Brexit was just tooo toxic for the 'undecided' Scots to take.

The comparisons between the two goverment's handling of Covid was just more petrol to the fire.
Two thirds of the Scots voted to stay in the EU..........that is a HUGE majority by whatever standards you choose to measure.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			All he's done is to quote what is in the threads title.
		
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That makes three not very clever chaps than.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2020)

Have always understood why many in Scotland would be desiring of removing themselves from a remote bureaucracy such as Westminster... Puzzles me, therefore, why they seem to be hellbent in with signing up to the equally wholly corrupt folk that pollute the corridors of Brussels...


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## PNWokingham (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For my tuppence worth a combination of Farage/Johnson and Brexit was just tooo toxic for the 'undecided' Scots to take.

The comparisons between the two goverment's handling of Covid was just more petrol to the fire.
Two thirds of the Scots voted to stay in the EU..........that is a HUGE majority by whatever standards you choose to measure.
		
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and just because a majority in Scotland voted remain, why should that be a deciding factor when it represents less than 10% of the UK population. It was a UK vote. London, with a bigger population than Scotland, voted remain (from memory), but they both have to live with the overall result, just like the nearly half of us who voted Remain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			All he's done is to quote what is in the threads title.
		
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Which was clearly a typo...


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## PNWokingham (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You don't think that Brexit as a driver for a second referendum is not a real issue?  Yes there are significant issues that require very serious consideration and that will hold many back from voting 'Yes' - but there are other things _driving _a 'Yes' - and I suggest that one of the most significant is Brexit; how it has come about (and Johnson's part in that); what it says about a Scottish electorate voice in the UK, and what was previously asserted about remaining in the EU.

And why do you refer to them as SNIP?  I think it's easy enough to not make deliberate typos.
		
Click to expand...

you just cannot let Brexit totally dominate what you say even on topics that are not on Brexit. Sure, I will agree that Brexit has pushhed more Scots towards independance, but that does not change the fact that it was a once in a generation vote - agreed by all sides. And we have no idea yet (despite your clearly mystic powers that it will be a complete failure) if Brexit will be a success or failure for the country as a whole - that will also take another deade to get a clearer picture, thus aligning well with the "once in a generation" vote on Scottish independance, if that is the prevailing will in 2035. 

And by the way, feel free to comment on the much more fundamental and critical points for Scotland if they decide to leave - it is a much different scenario than Brexit for a new country starting with no currency, trade agreements, credit rating, borrowing history, financial history etc etc. And one thing that is a given is that it will cost Scotland more to finance their (larger than the rest of the UK) budget deficit than it will the rest of the UK. Please offer some ideas on what Scotland will or can actually do on the fundamental issues mentioned? These points deserve and must have answers in order for the Scottish people decide if the rationale for leave has any possibility of succeeding - and once again, please do not refer back to Brexit, Boris sculduggery and lies or anything to do with Westminster politics - concentrate on the topic at hand.

And the thread title is called SNIP


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			you just cannot let Brexit totally dominate what you say even on topics that are not on Brexit. Sure, I will agree that Brexit has pushhed more Scots towards independance, but that does not change the fact that it was a once in a generation vote - agreed by all sides. And we have no idea yet (despite your clearly mystic powers that it will be a complete failure) if Brexit will be a success or failure for the country as a whole - that will also take another deade to get a clearer picture, thus aligning well with the "once in a generation" vote on Scottish independance, if that is the prevailing will in 2035.

And by the way, feel free to comment on the much more fundamental and critical points for Scotland if they decide to leave - it is a much different scenario than Brexit for a new country starting with no currency, trade agreements, credit rating, borrowing history, financial history etc etc. And one thing that is a given is that it will cost Scotland more to finance their (larger than the rest of the UK) budget deficit than it will the rest of the UK. Please offer some ideas on what Scotland will or can actually do on the fundamental issues mentioned? These points deserve and must have answers in order for the Scottish people decide if the rationale for leave has any possibility of succeeding - and once again, please do not refer back to Brexit, Boris sculduggery and lies or anything to do with Westminster politics - concentrate on the topic at hand.

Same old tired arguments.
Currencey......oor £, bawbees, who cares? Do you think that Gandhi spent hours fretting over oh dear what currency should we use.
Trade agreements etc how did other independent countries like Norway/Estiona etc manage to survive.
Scotland managing it's own money/business will be just fine and thrive.

Why are people like you so desperate to keep Scotland within a clearly failed union, if we were such a drain on the UK surely it would be better to allow us to leave. No one as ever answered that question.
		
Click to expand...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			you just cannot let Brexit totally dominate what you say even on topics that are not on Brexit. Sure, I will agree that Brexit has pushhed more Scots towards independance, but that does not change the fact *that it was a once in a generation vote -* agreed by all sides. And we have no idea yet (despite your clearly mystic powers that it will be a complete failure) if Brexit will be a success or failure for the country as a whole - that will also take another deade to get a clearer picture, thus aligning well with the "once in a generation" vote on Scottish independance, if that is the prevailing will in 2035.

And by the way, feel free to comment on the much more fundamental and critical points for Scotland if they decide to leave - it is a much different scenario than Brexit for a new country starting with no currency, trade agreements, credit rating, borrowing history, financial history etc etc. And one thing that is a given is that it will cost Scotland more to finance their (larger than the rest of the UK) budget deficit than it will the rest of the UK. Please offer some ideas on what Scotland will or can actually do on the fundamental issues mentioned? These points deserve and must have answers in order for the Scottish people decide if the rationale for leave has any possibility of succeeding - and once again, please do not refer back to Brexit, Boris sculduggery and lies or anything to do with Westminster politics - concentrate on the topic at hand.

And the thread title is called SNIP
		
Click to expand...

Not such a thing in a democracy.  Did the Referendum Act define it to be as such - did it define a timescale before a repeat.  No.  They could have (as in the fixed term parliament act) - but they didn't.

And nobody needs repeat a clear mistaken typo error unless they think it's somehow funny.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Have always understood why many in Scotland would be desiring of removing themselves from a remote bureaucracy such as Westminster... Puzzles me, therefore, why they seem to be hellbent in with signing up to the equally wholly corrupt folk that pollute the corridors of Brussels...
		
Click to expand...

The EU have been fair to Scotland and invested in many projects, especially rural infrastructure.
The Westminster Government have been unfair to Scotland and not invested in its infrastructure.


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## KenL (Aug 25, 2020)

Say there was another ref. And yes won 52% to 48%.  Would those that voted yes be happy if the other side went on and on about having another vote?


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## KenL (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The EU have been fair to Scotland and invested in many projects, especially rural infrastructure.
The Westminster Government have been unfair to Scotland and not invested in its infrastructure.
		
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That is crap and you know it.


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## chrisd (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The EU have been fair to Scotland and invested in many projects, especially rural infrastructure.
The Westminster Government have been unfair to Scotland and not invested in its infrastructure.
		
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Perhaps the money that the kind folk of the EU invested in Scottish infrastructure was taken from money kindly donated to the EU by the UK


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## Jacko_G (Aug 25, 2020)

Some are scared by the loss of Scottish assets on the "union"


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## Fade and Die (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Some are scared by the loss of Scottish assets on the "union"
		
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Yep really gonna miss those tea cakes.👍


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## KenL (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Some are scared by the loss of Scottish assets on the "union"
		
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People might have a desire to keep the union because they actually like it and the success it has brought to all who benefit from it.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon posted#1338
...”Same old tired arguments.
Currencey......oor £, bawbees, who cares? Do you think that *Gandhi* spent hours fretting over oh dear what currency should we use.
Trade agreements etc how did other independent countries like Norway/Estiona etc manage to survive.
Scotland managing it's own money/business will be just fine and thrive.

Why are people like you so desperate to keep Scotland within a clearly failed union, if we were such a drain on the UK surely it would be better to allow us to leave. No one as ever answered that question.”
——————————————————-
That’s an odd lense you view Scottish independence through, comparing yourselves to the suffering of the Indians during the British Raj! Ridiculous.

The second paragraph is just your xenophobic opinion. Fortunately for the rest of us (Brits) you are in the minority. 👍


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The EU have been fair to Scotland and invested in many projects, especially rural infrastructure.
The Westminster Government have been unfair to Scotland and not invested in its infrastructure.
		
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There's the thing... Isn't independence about being in a position of not having to be concerned about the fairness/unfairness of third party bureaucracies...


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## Jacko_G (Aug 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			People might have a desire to keep the union because they actually like it and the success it has brought to all who benefit from it.
		
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Lets celebrate centuries of torture, oppression and rape.


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## KenL (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Lets celebrate centuries of torture, oppression and rape.
		
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Lost the plot!


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## PNWokingham (Aug 25, 2020)

Why are people like you so desperate to keep Scotland within a clearly failed union, if we were such a drain on the UK surely it would be better to allow us to leave. No one as ever answered that question 

************************

i am not desperate to keep Scotland in the Union but it would be my clear preference. If the will is there to leave you are welcome to go - but i would hate you to leave when the public who vote have no idea what they have voted on - and the core issues of surviving as an independant nation are not addressed properly. If the SNIP are so keen that it is in Scotland's best interset to leave then let them properly answer the fundamental questions raised and have ready-to-go plans that they can share with the electorate on the issues i mentioned and several other core subjects for an independant nation. Then, if the public agree, they will vote to leave and we wil; waive you goodbye! And if we are kind, we may even give you a decent trade agreement of the type that we are asking from the bullying EU - this may help you before you become ensnared by the Buaeracy and rules of new masters who you have much less in common with - that is if you mangage to get the new currency and economic track record and other issues necessary to join the club.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not such a thing in a democracy.  Did the Referendum Act define it to be as such - did it define a timescale before a repeat.  No.  They could have (as in the fixed term parliament act) - but they didn't.

And nobody needs repeat a clear mistaken typo error unless they think it's somehow funny.
		
Click to expand...

Really. The fact that the SNIP were happy, campaigned as a once in a generation, why on earth should Westminster now agree to another disruptive and divisive vote when they need all energies for post Brexit plans and now the added headache of COVID! 

So, while avoiding the core issues again, why do you not have a go at addressing the BIG fundamental issue that Scotland and the SNIP will have to face rather than deflecting. That is the substance of whether to leave or stay. What is your opinion - you are a die hard remainer but sound like you want Scotland to leave?? So focus on the other points and let's see if you have solutions that i believe make it an absolute fools errand and a catastophic mistake for Scotland to leave? Try and prove my wrong by responding on the core issues


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## Fade and Die (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Lets celebrate centuries of torture, oppression and rape.
		
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Disgraceful post, hope @PhilTheFragger  puts a stop to your obvious trolling on this thread.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Lets celebrate centuries of torture, oppression and rape.
		
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Do you seriously think that or is this just a pathetic attempt to wind people up?


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Lets celebrate centuries of torture, oppression and rape.
		
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While you’re at it, throw in the murder of Rasputin , if you want to be taken seriously, stop posting like a loon 👍


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## Jacko_G (Aug 25, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Disgraceful post, hope @PhilTheFragger  puts a stop to your obvious trolling on this thread.
		
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Aye oppression on the thread as well.

priceless


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## Fade and Die (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Aye oppression on the thread as well.

priceless
		
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😂.... is this you and your mates Jacko?.... “ We can’t even find a decent culture to be colonised by“
(Excuse the swears m)


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## Leftie (Aug 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Aye oppression on the thread as well.

priceless
		
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Or is it that you are just a very messy eater?


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 26, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			While you’re at it, throw in the murder of Rasputin , if you want to be taken seriously, stop posting like a loon 👍
		
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Will this mean Boney M make a song about Scottish independence?      And thanks, I've now got this damn song in my head ... "Rah rah Rasputin, lover of the Russian queen...."


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

Reply to post 1351.
It is not just the SNP that want Independence, confirms you are out of touch with the Scots political scene
42% of Scottish Labour members support independence.......[mind you that is probably only about 57 folk.]
The labour downfall started here https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/20...-Xzsu2khZhTuv9JnLdPdYZ8jr6Bfj5ISpAfnBiisyDELq 

'Don't know what they are voting for' is utter drivel.

Brexiteers on the other hand really did not have a clue of what they voted for, fed the biggest load of lies and guff and fell for it hook line and sinker.

Thanks for being the first on here to at least attempt to answer the question that many Scots are asking


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2020)

Is "don't know what they are voting for" utter drivel?

Do they know what share of the national debt will be owed, what trading terms they will have with the rest of the UK, what currency they'll use,  whether they will be allowed back into the EU, the value of their savings if the currency changes, will the UK Government keep the nuclear base in Scotland and, if not, what the resultant job losses will be ............ etc etc ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Reply to post 1351.
It is not just the SNP that want Independence, confirms you are out of touch with the Scots political scene
42% of Scottish Labour members support independence.......[mind you that is probably only about 57 folk.]
The labour downfall started here https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/20...-Xzsu2khZhTuv9JnLdPdYZ8jr6Bfj5ISpAfnBiisyDELq 

'Don't know what they are voting for' is utter drivel.

Brexiteers on the other hand really did not have a clue of what they voted for, fed the biggest load of lies and guff and fell for it hook line and sinker.

Thanks for being the first on here to at least attempt to answer the question that many Scots are asking 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is people like you who are the issue. You pick and choose your sources of information to suit your viewpoint rather than looking at the bigger picture. If you believe that Scotland would be better off as an independent country (and you are perfectly entitled to hold that view) then go ahead and vote that way if there is an indyref2. However if you do you may end up regretting it.


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## IanM (Aug 26, 2020)

The SNP don't want Independence.  They want to be within a Federal EU.   

The reasons and benefits/pitfalls of that are what is up for debate....


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			The SNP don't want Independence.  They want to be within a Federal EU.  

The reasons and benefits/pitfalls of that are what is up for debate....
		
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CORRECT we want Independence to join our many friends and colleagues in the EU.
Don't forget that the signatures of the VOW promised as near Federalism as possible...that went two days after the 2014 vote.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			CORRECT we want Independence to join our many friends and colleagues in the EU.
Don't forget that the signatures of the VOW promised as near Federalism as possible...that went two days after the 2014 vote.
		
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You wanted independence long before Brexit, that is just a distraction to suit your argument.


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## PieMan (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			CORRECT we want Independence to join our many friends and colleagues in the EU.
Don't forget that the signatures of the VOW promised as near Federalism as possible...that went two days after the 2014 vote.
		
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You may want to join........whether a number want you though is the question! Spain - probably not given the Catalonia situation. And can't imagine the 'Frugal Four' being too pleased about another net recipient adding even more pressure to the EU budget, especially given the countries already in the accession process will also be net recipients.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

PieMan said:



			You may want to join........whether a number want you though is the question! Spain - probably not given the Catalonia situation. And can't imagine the 'Frugal Four' being too pleased about another net recipient adding even more pressure to the EU budget, especially given the countries already in the accession process will also be net recipients.
		
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We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.


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## Grant85 (Aug 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			The SNP don't want Independence.  They want to be within a Federal EU. 

The reasons and benefits/pitfalls of that are what is up for debate....
		
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1st point, the EU is not a Federal state. No doubt there are those in the EU that want to move towards that but I think there will be sufficient voices within member states that will halt progress in that direction. And with Brexit they have a fairly big sign to point to and say, 'my country could do this as well, you have to stop'

2nd point, what is up for debate is for Scotland to have their own choice. On EU, international relations, military actions as well as a huge number of internal matters currently made entirely at Westminster.

If the status quo continues we have almost no say on EU membership. In short there is no point having the EU membership debate until you have the independence debate, without independence the EU debate is pointless and effectively Scotland goes along with whatever England and the government of English MPs decides.


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## IanM (Aug 26, 2020)

Fair points all Grant, but I'd add the word "yet" to your first point, but Brexit has given them food for thought on the direction of travel.  That said, I don't think the EU Commissioners give a stuff about dissent, but they will have a hole in their (un-audited  ) budget to worry about.

I think the debates on autonomy on the other points are all valid, but I think I'd give the SNP would have more credibility (with me) if they were less Federalist.   The intention of the EU is clear, the Common Market is long gone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

drive4show said:



			You wanted independence long before Brexit, that is just a distraction to suit your argument.
		
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The world moves on.
Only six years ago the Unionistas strongly claimed the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was by voting NO.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Fair points all Grant, but I'd add the word "yet" to your first point, but Brexit has given them food for thought on the direction of travel.  That said, I don't think the EU Commissioners give a stuff about dissent, but they will have a hole in their (un-audited  ) budget to worry about.

I think the debates on autonomy on the other points are all valid, but I think I'd give the SNP would have more credibility (with me) if they were less Federalist.   The intention of the EU is clear, the Common Market is long gone.
		
Click to expand...

Figures from.AN


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298594375979720704


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## Fade and Die (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.

Click to expand...

Apart from spite against the U.K. I cannot see any incentive for the EU admitting an independent Scotland...Anyway you should be wary, Everyone knows Scotland were always getting stitched up by France in the “Auld alliance” expect more of the same.👍


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## IanM (Aug 26, 2020)

I think budget deficit figures are now going to look a bit bonkers for many years to come!

Maybe the reason for the SNP loving the EU is it's demand for increase centralisation and alignment?  Currency, tax, laws etc.  So, surely an EU footy team beckons.... you might then get to a World Cup by proxy!


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.

Click to expand...

Mmmmmmmm everyone 🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## PieMan (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.

Click to expand...

😂 😂 

Not necessarily at the ruling level! I've spoken to a few representatives of EU Member States who do not want an independent Scotland adding more pressure to EU budgets.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 26, 2020)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...dividend-rises-almost-2000-per-person-hammer/


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

PieMan said:



			😂 😂

Not necessarily at the ruling level! I've spoken to a few representatives of EU Member States who do not want an independent Scotland adding more pressure to EU budgets.
		
Click to expand...

Did you see the response to MEP Alyn Smiths 'leave a light on for Scotland' final speech.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 26, 2020)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...dividend-rises-almost-2000-per-person-hammer/


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## azazel (Aug 26, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...dividend-rises-almost-2000-per-person-hammer/

Click to expand...

What kind of advert for the union is that? Scotland's so badly off under the present set up that the opportunity to do so much better on our own is enormous


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2020)

azazel said:



			What kind of advert for the union is that? Scotland's so badly off under the present set up that the opportunity to do so much better on our own is enormous 

Click to expand...

Shouldn't the last word read "impossible" ??


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.

Click to expand...

Confused again between the EU and Europe. The EU has already told Scotland that they wouldn’t be welcome.

Europe definitely loves Scotland, which other country can provide football teams like lambs to the slaughter


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## azazel (Aug 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Shouldn't the last word read "impossible" ??
		
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Only if you believe there's something uniquely incapable about Scotland and Scottish people that would prevent us running our own country in the way that many similar-sized nations do. I choose to be a bit more positive and less insulting about our capabilities but each to their own.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			So, surely an EU footy team beckons.... you might then get to a World Cup by proxy! 

Click to expand...

Even as a Scot that made me laugh 😂


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2020)

Meanwhile the Scottish deficit is £15.1bn (~9%) which is about 25% of the whole of the UK's at £60.bn (2.7%). (Figures: April so don't reflect full Covid impact.
Barnier can't wait to welcome Scotland's contribution to the EU budget !

and ...K Forbes (S Fin Sec) has scrapped plans to publish their economic case for Independence - wonder why?

Perhaps the next vote should be open to UK citizens.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Confused again between the EU and Europe. The EU has already told Scotland that they wouldn’t be welcome.

Europe definitely loves Scotland, which other country can provide football teams like lambs to the slaughter 

Click to expand...

Difficult choices to be made and problematic certainly - but not welcome?  Not so sure that that's how all see it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin 

And a read with all the analysis anyone might wish for. 

https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-12533


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2020)

azazel said:



			Only if you believe there's something uniquely incapable about Scotland and Scottish people that would prevent us running our own country in the way that many similar-sized nations do. I choose to be a bit more positive and less insulting about our capabilities but each to their own.
		
Click to expand...

It's not insulting to say that Scotland couldn't run it's own country. You are heavily in debt, almost certainly wouldn't be in invited into the EU etc etc . Presumably you couldn't  do it without raising taxes to a level unacceptable to the Scottish taxpayers .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile the Scottish deficit is £15.1bn (~9%) which is about 25% of the whole of the UK's at £60.bn (2.7%). Figures April so don't reflect full Covid impact.
Barnier can't wait to welcome Scotland's contribution to the EU budget !

and ...K Forbes (S Fin Sec) has scrapped plans to publish their economic case for Independence - wonder why?

*Perhaps the next vote should be open to UK citizens.*

Click to expand...

Which if course is the daftest of all notions in respect of an Indyref2 - and it doesn't take much thought to work out why.


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## DRW (Aug 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which if course is the daftest of all notions in respect of an Indyref2 - and it doesn't take much thought to work out why.
		
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Currently I am UK citizen, I can freely roam/trade across the whole country of the UK, so why should I not get a vote on the fact that part of the country may break up and restrict what I do in my 'own country'.

I do not wish to be restricted and have the country I 'currently own' and can freely trade/roam with, just because some people wish to break it up. It affects everyone in the whole country, not just people living in Scotland....

Its an interesting question and a point missed.

BTW this is nothing like the Brexit vote, as we were not one country with the EU. So comparing the Brexit voting system to a break the country up vote, is not valid at all.


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## DRW (Aug 26, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...dividend-rises-almost-2000-per-person-hammer/

Click to expand...




azazel said:



			What kind of advert for the union is that? Scotland's so badly off under the present set up that the opportunity to do so much better on our own is enormous 

Click to expand...

That's a bit of around the wrong way answer, the article actually shows that currently you are feeling better off than you should be, due to the massive deficit you are running.

You are not paying enough tax in Scotland and/or giving out to many 'freebies' etc.

Better get ready to pay a lot more tax or government spending cuts, as taxing the rich more will not raise enough to cover the deficit(as they aren't that rich each year!).

Maybe in years afterwards, Scotland could improve matters by extra trading etc, but short term there will be a hit to finances, deficit and benefits. Uncertainly is a killer for investment and business. Same could be said for the Brexit effect for the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...dividend-rises-almost-2000-per-person-hammer/

Click to expand...

Bingo ....well done.
Anyone know what the GERE figures are, I have tried Googling it and nothing comes up.

GERS figures have been roundly rubbished over the last few years and have no relevance at all to an Independent Scotland's finance.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile the Scottish deficit is £15.1bn (~9%) which is about 25% of the whole of the UK's at £60.bn (2.7%). (Figures: April so don't reflect full Covid impact.
Barnier can't wait to welcome Scotland's contribution to the EU budget !

and ...K Forbes (S Fin Sec) has scrapped plans to publish their economic case for Independence - wonder why?

Perhaps the next vote should be open to UK citizens.
		
Click to expand...

Covid, Brexit, UK Treasurer's massive borrowing spree, perhaps may be indicators


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Difficult choices to be made and problematic certainly - but not welcome?  Not so sure that that's how all see it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

And a read with all the analysis anyone might wish for.

https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-12533

Click to expand...

Scotland would need every country to vote in favour. The 2 main protagonists would never folk out the bribe money required to get the vote, Spain alone would demand a huge payout.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			That's a bit of around the wrong way answer, the article actually shows that currently you are feeling better off than you should be, due to the massive deficit you are running.

You are not paying enough tax in Scotland and/or giving out to many 'freebies' etc.

Better get ready to pay a lot more tax or government spending cuts, as taxing the rich more will not raise enough to cover the deficit(as they aren't that rich each year!).

Maybe in years afterwards, Scotland could improve matters by extra trading etc, but short term there will be a hit to finances, deficit and benefits. Uncertainly is a killer for investment and business. Same could be said for the Brexit effect for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Ok - though I thought it obvious.

Scotland's ~3.6m electorate could vote 100% to remain in the UK, and rUK could vote for Scotland to leave the UK by a majority of >3.6m (not inconceivable).  So in effect Scotland would be getting thrown out of the UK against 100% of it's electorate's expressed wishes.  Indeed it may be the case that under the Act of Union (1707) Scotland *cannot *be thrown out of the Union against it's wishes.  As a nation in a union of nations it may choose to leave, but I doubt very much that it can be thrown out against it's wishes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Scotland would need every country to vote in favour. The 2 main protagonists would never folk out the bribe money required to get the vote, Spain alone would demand a huge payout.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe so - nobody said it would be without issues.  That wouldn't make Scotland 'not welcome'.


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2020)

As a great many Scots come south to earn a living as has been openly stated by Doom and others, (most don’t return) under the new rules if Scotland went independent they would be unable to have the same benefits that Scots had before.


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## KenL (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bingo ....well done.
Anyone know what the GERE figures are, I have tried Googling it and nothing comes up.

GERS figures have been roundly rubbished over the last few years and have no relevance at all to an Independent Scotland's finance.
		
Click to expand...

GERS figures are real and published by Scotgov.


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe so - nobody said it would be without issues.  That wouldn't make Scotland 'not welcome'.
		
Click to expand...

Not welcome is perhaps the wrong word, no available room in the inn may be better.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Currently I am UK citizen, I can freely roam/trade across the whole country of the UK, so why should I not get a vote on the fact that part of the country may break up and restrict what I do in my 'own country'.

I do not wish to be restricted and have the country I 'currently own' and can freely trade/roam with, just because some people wish to break it up. It affects everyone in the whole country, not just people living in Scotland....

Its an interesting question and a point missed.

BTW this is nothing like the Brexit vote, as we were not one country with the EU. So comparing the Brexit voting system to a break the country up vote, is not valid at all.
		
Click to expand...

This is an excellent point, suddenly some of my family will be living in a foreign country!!... We are all “stakeholders” in this country and there is an argument that we should all be consulted. 

(Tbh if I was a Scot gnat I would want this too as I think sadly it would give them an overwhelming victory.)


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## PieMan (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you see the response to MEP Alyn Smiths 'leave a light on for Scotland' final speech.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I did actually - and a very good one it was too. Shame that the EP believes it had more influence than it actually does!

The PMs and Presidents of EU Member States will not take any views of MEPs into consideration. At the end of the day they will weigh what an independent Scotland will actually cost them (or most likely, what an independent Scotland will take away from them in terms of money to their respective nations). 

Keep on dreaming though 👍


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## PNWokingham (Aug 26, 2020)

azazel said:



			What kind of advert for the union is that? Scotland's so badly off under the present set up that the opportunity to do so much better on our own is enormous 

Click to expand...

a near 9% budget defecit with a 2k per person bonus from being in the UK - and you think that is a good excuse for getting better terms on your own. . Funny how nobody who wants independenance likes to answer any of the fundamental questions. But hey hey, the easy option for the rest of the UK when faced with this attitide is to say hey ho off you go and spend the extra money that Scotland gets on the rest of the Union.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile the Scottish deficit
		
Click to expand...




KenL said:



			GERS figures are real and published by Scotgov.
		
Click to expand...

I was not saying that they were not real.
They have to be published by the Scots Government under the terms of Westminster rule. 

I said that they were rubbish and bore no relevance to Scotland as an Independent country.
Surprised that after all that has been published in the last few years that anyone still thinks that they do.
Since devolution Scotland has always stayed within it's budgeted figures, legally within the Westminster fiscal structure we cannot overspend.


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## azazel (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			a near 9% budget defecit with a 2k per person bonus from being in the UK - and you think that is a good excuse for getting better terms on your own. . Funny how nobody who wants independenance likes to answer any of the fundamental questions. But hey hey, the easy option for the rest of the UK when faced with this attitide is to say hey ho off you go and spend the extra money that Scotland gets on the rest of the Union.
		
Click to expand...

You can't accurately or realistically judge a country's economic performance when that country doesn't control all aspects of its economy.


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## banjofred (Aug 27, 2020)

azazel said:



			You can't accurately or realistically judge a country's economic performance when that country doesn't control all aspects of its economy.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't this part of the argument for Brexit?


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was not saying that they were not real.
They have to be published by the Scots Government under the terms of Westminster rule.

I said that they were rubbish and bore no relevance to Scotland as an Independent country.
Surprised that after all that has been published in the last few years that anyone still thinks that they do.
Since devolution Scotland has always stayed within it's budgeted figures, legally within the Westminster fiscal structure we cannot overspend.
		
Click to expand...

so you want to overspend more than you already do . You might need to make some friends who would be happy to finance that - maybe have a word with China, they like funding countries that cannot borrow in other ways!!!


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

azazel said:



			You can't accurately or realistically judge a country's economic performance when that country doesn't control all aspects of its economy.
		
Click to expand...

So you think full control of your finances and deficits - which will increase as the costs will go up as you will have a lower credit rating than the UK (and probably lower than many other countries like Ireland etc) to finance a defecit larger than anything in the EU - will enable you to do things better!! I am struggling with this concept. Maybe Wee Jimmy has a magical plan that she formulated in conjunction with Hogwarts!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			So you think full control of your finances and deficits - which will increase as the costs will go up as you will have a lower credit rating than the UK (and probably lower than many other countries like Ireland etc) to finance a defecit larger than anything in the EU - will enable you to do things better!! I am struggling with this concept. Maybe Wee Jimmy has a magical plan that she formulated in conjunction with Hogwarts!! 

Click to expand...

The UK now has a £2 trillion national debt
Anyone on here know what Scotland's share of that is.?
Maybe Benny from Crossroads has the answer.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK now has a £2 trillion national debt
Anyone on here know what Scotland's share of that is.?
Maybe Benny from Crossroads has the answer.

Click to expand...

Maybe Benny can come and help you Krank up the growth prospects along with Harry Potter!! 🤣

And the defecit is easy. Pro rata same as population


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The UK now has a £2 trillion national debt
Anyone on here know what Scotland's share of that is.?
Maybe Benny from Crossroads has the answer.

Click to expand...

And on the debt feel free to have a plan on how you take on circa 170bn!


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## azazel (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			So you think full control of your finances and deficits - which will increase as the costs will go up as you will have a lower credit rating than the UK (and probably lower than many other countries like Ireland etc) to finance a defecit larger than anything in the EU - will enable you to do things better!! I am struggling with this concept. Maybe Wee Jimmy has a magical plan that she formulated in conjunction with Hogwarts!! 

Click to expand...

Seriously chief, put the emojis down for a second and look at the absolute state of the UK thanks to the successive governments "you" keep electing and therefore imposing on us. From illegal wars to austerity, Brexit and everything else, I'll take the chance on the financial side for an opportunity to get the government Scotland wants and a country actually run for the whole population and not just the Eton/Oxbridge mob.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 27, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298986433412128769


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

azazel said:



			Seriously chief, put the emojis down for a second and look at the absolute state of the UK thanks to the successive governments "you" keep electing and therefore imposing on us. From illegal wars to austerity, Brexit and everything else, I'll take the chance on the financial side for an opportunity to get the government Scotland wants and a country actually run for the whole population and not just the Eton/Oxbridge mob.
		
Click to expand...


For the record, the government is still elected across the whole UK that you begrudgingly are still part of! I know austerity is a rude word for the lefties on here but if you go independant you will get a rude and swift lesson in what it means. And the notion that everything is run for Eton mob, actually a very small element of society and thus almost irrelevant, is bonkers. Policies over the last decade have been predominately focused on the lower-income brackets - Middle UK have paid the heavy austerity price price since the financial crash, heavier than they ever should have if Gordon Brown had not mismanaged the economy in the previous decade. Anyway, this is way off topic - let's get back to the SNIP and what to do when you decide to leave - how are you going to run your new small, heavily indebted, no-currency, no credit rating, fiscally-challenged country better than now when you have all the benefits of the Barnett formula, being part of the 6th largest economy in the World etc etc? Better to stick to topic than deflecting about Boris, Tony Blair, the reality of trying to balance the books after the last profligate spenders.....


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## KenL (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was not saying that they were not real.
They have to be published by the Scots Government under the terms of Westminster rule. 

I said that they were rubbish and bore no relevance to Scotland as an Independent country.
Surprised that after all that has been published in the last few years that anyone still thinks that they do.
Since devolution Scotland has always stayed within it's budgeted figures, legally within the Westminster fiscal structure we cannot overspend.
		
Click to expand...

Having a massive deficit (way above rUK) is overspending, no?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:




For the record, the government is still elected across the whole UK that you begrudgingly are still part of! I know austerity is a rude word for the lefties on here but if you go independant you will get a rude and swift lesson in what it means. And the notion that everything is run for Eton mob, actually a very small element of society and thus almost irrelevant, is bonkers. Policies over the last decade have been predominately focused on the lower-income brackets - Middle UK have paid the heavy austerity price price since the financial crash, heavier than they ever should have if Gordon Brown had not mismanaged the economy in the previous decade. Anyway, this is way off topic - let's get back to the SNIP and what to do when you decide to leave - how are you going to run your new small, heavily indebted, no-currency, no credit rating, fiscally-challenged country better than now when you have all the benefits of the Barnett formula, being part of the 6th largest economy in the World etc etc? Better to stick to topic than deflecting about Boris, Tony Blair, the reality of trying to balance the books after the last profligate spenders.....
		
Click to expand...

What a load of rubbish! Bedroom tax, Welfare Cuts, Libraries closed, more Child Poverty, less Social House, record number of foodbanks, gap between richer and poorer wider than it’s ever been and all blamed on Brown.

So just what have the tories done after all these years in power? Oh yes that’s right, the one thing you admitted by admission, the rich are better off than anyone and have gained more.


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## azazel (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:




For the record, the government is still elected across the whole UK that you begrudgingly are still part of! I know austerity is a rude word for the lefties on here but if you go independant you will get a rude and swift lesson in what it means. And the notion that everything is run for Eton mob, actually a very small element of society and thus almost irrelevant, is bonkers. Policies over the last decade have been predominately focused on the lower-income brackets - Middle UK have paid the heavy austerity price price since the financial crash, heavier than they ever should have if Gordon Brown had not mismanaged the economy in the previous decade. Anyway, this is way off topic - let's get back to the SNIP and what to do when you decide to leave - how are you going to run your new small, heavily indebted, no-currency, no credit rating, fiscally-challenged country better than now when you have all the benefits of the Barnett formula, being part of the 6th largest economy in the World etc etc? Better to stick to topic than deflecting about Boris, Tony Blair, the reality of trying to balance the books after the last profligate spenders.....
		
Click to expand...

But that's the whole point, it isn't just about the economics. In addition to your skewed take on who's to blame for the state of the UK, you're falling into the same pattern as every unionist commentator on social media in reverting to that as the last remaining tool to try and argue about independence being bad and scary. If you're really interested in finding out more then go search for things like "GERS innacuracy" and similar terms and you'll find plenty to refute the idea that Scotland has such a big deficit.
And if "you" keep electing the Blairs and Borises then independence just gets more and more likely, so it's far from deflection.
Oh, and if you're actually after a serious conversation, you'd come across much better if you could actually bring yourself to type "SNP", even although they're really only the vehicle for independence rather than the end result.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What a load of rubbish! Bedroom tax, Welfare Cuts, Libraries closed, more Child Poverty, less Social House, record number of foodbanks, gap between richer and poorer wider than it’s ever been and all blamed on Brown.

So just what have the tories done after all these years in power? Oh yes that’s right, the one thing you admitted by admission, the rich are better off than anyone and have gained more.



Click to expand...

as mentioned, all of this is off topic but...gap between rich and poor is a universal global problem - so room to debate that elsewhere but there are no easy answers and not something that can be blamed on the past years of Tory government. The problem is very complex, global in nature and, personally, I believe, cause more than anything by low and negative interest rates that has cause an asset bubble - thus inflating the value of assets - and guess what, the already rich hold more assets than others and thus have indirectly benefitted disproportionately. The solution?? 

and of course there have been cuts, you cannot run a 10% budget deficit for long - as Scotland will rudely and swiftly find out were they to vote leave


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## Captainron (Aug 27, 2020)

Once split away will Scotland make mince and mealie pies their national dish??? I blooming hope so! They were a revelation!


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

azazel said:



			But that's the whole point, it isn't just about the economics. You're falling into the same pattern as every unionist commentator on social media in reverting to that as the last remaining tool to try and argue about independence being bad and scary. If you're really interested in finding out more then go search for things like "GERS innacuracy" and similar terms and you'll find plenty to refute the idea that Scotland has such a big deficit.
		
Click to expand...

instead of deflecting, once more, why do you not offer some comfort for your fellow citizens and answer the questions posed on what happens if you leave on currency, economic management, trade policies with UK (60%+ of exports), EU membership, credit ratings, financing the deficit etc ect - not a complicated question but all the leave fanatics who "want control of all their poloicies" are singularly failing to offer any clarity to these most fundamental issues


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			as mentioned, all of this is off topic but...gap between rich and poor is a universal global problem - so room to debate that elsewhere but there are no easy answers and not something that can be blamed on the past years of Tory government. The problem is very complex, global in nature and, personally, I believe, cause more than anything by low and negative interest rates that has cause an asset bubble - thus inflating the value of assets - and guess what, the already rich hold more assets than others and thus have indirectly benefitted disproportionately. The solution??

and of course there have been cuts, you cannot run a 10% budget deficit for long - as Scotland will rudely and swiftly find out were they to vote leave
		
Click to expand...

We, as in all of us, have to look at why so many people in Scotland want independence, you brought Brown and the problems over the last 10 years in to it. The situation has got worse for them, thete’s no doubt they were given promises by Cameron he didn’t keep prior to the last vote.

There’s very little genuine discussion when it comes to Scotland and the future, in the main it’s the English telling them how lucky they are and how bad the EU is whilst at the same time dismissing what they voted for as a Nation.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			We, as in all of us, have to look at why so many people in Scotland want independence, you brought Brown and the problems over the last 10 years in to it. The situation has got worse for them, thete’s no doubt they were given promises by Cameron he didn’t keep prior to the last vote.

There’s very little genuine discussion when it comes to Scotland and the future, in the main it’s the English telling them how lucky they are and how bad the EU is whilst at the same time dismissing what they voted for as a Nation.
		
Click to expand...

you can go off on that topic if you want but i am asking the questions of how they cope with the massive elephants in the room raised. The rest is irrelvant to this part of the debate about what happens if they leave. Not interested in Brexit, Brown, Cameron etc here - just the reality dealing with independance as they must provide answers and plans here (even if not concrete solutions to everything) so the Scottish public can choose to go or not - no good Sturgeon glossing over and saying things like we will use the pound and have a say in monetary policy, as that is a complete non starter......


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 27, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			We, as in all of us, have to look at why so many people in Scotland want independence, you brought Brown and the problems over the last 10 years in to it. The situation has got worse for them, thete’s no doubt they were given promises by Cameron he didn’t keep prior to the last vote.

There’s very little genuine discussion when it comes to Scotland and the future, in the main it’s the English telling them how lucky they are and how bad the EU is whilst at the same time dismissing what they voted for as a Nation.
		
Click to expand...

I believe the reason Scots want Independence is because they think they've had a bum deal from Westminster. The bulk of industry in Scotland has gone (coal mining, ship building etc) because of several factors outwith Westminster's control. China and Korea rule the roost in those industries now because of cheap labour so we just could not produce competitively priced products. 
Once the Scots realise this and stop blaming the English then they might start thinking about the best ways to regenerate their economy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I believe the reason Scots want Independence is because they think they've had a bum deal from Westminster. The bulk of industry in Scotland has gone (coal mining, ship building etc) because of several factors outwith Westminster's control. China and Korea rule the roost in those industries now because of cheap labour so we just could not produce competitively priced products.
Once the Scots realise this and stop blaming the English then they might start thinking about the best ways to regenerate their economy.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t for one minute tell someone in Scotland or any other Country how to live or vote.
I, personally, don’t want them to go independant, but if the majority want it or vote for it then good luck to them and they’ll have to live with that decision whether they sink or swim.

But, some English it seems are more interested in knocking them down and telling them what will or won’t happen.

I understand why some are upset over Brexit as Cameron quite categorically told them that by voting No for Independence meant staying in the EU, now you can’t simply dismiss that as, “oh well he lied” or “silly you for believing him” he was the PM at the time and with that office comes credibility, they then as a Nation voted to stay in the EU and we dismiss that as “unlucky, more voted to go”.
Can you honestly believe us Leavers wouldn’t have had a dig at Scotland if it had 51/49 to stay with their vote making the difference?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I believe the reason Scots want Independence is because they think they've had a bum deal from Westminster. The bulk of industry in Scotland has gone (coal mining, ship building etc) because of several factors outwith Westminster's control. China and Korea rule the roost in those industries now because of cheap labour so we just could not produce competitively priced products.
Once the Scots realise this and stop blaming the English then they might start thinking about the best ways to regenerate their economy.
		
Click to expand...

37 car factories in England all receiving massive UK government subsidies and start up £££££s
None in Scotland
Equal partners in the UK...............I think not.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			37 car factories in England all receiving massive UK government subsidies and start up £££££s
None in Scotland
Equal partners in the UK...............I think not.
		
Click to expand...

You really need to check your facts. The vast majority of those are old British marques that have been around for decades. There are only a handful of new plants since we joined the EU such as Honda and Nissan.


----------



## PieMan (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			37 car factories in England all receiving massive UK government subsidies and start up £££££s
None in Scotland
Equal partners in the UK...............I think not.
		
Click to expand...

Of course all depends on the nature of the subsidies and where these factories are based! If they're all in England and not in Scotland then that's a business decision the car manufacturers have taken - not the fault of UK Government. 

And there are a significant number of subsidy programmes that are devolved to the Scottish Government to manage and administer the funding and associated match funding.

Scotland receives more fisheries funding than England.


----------



## KenL (Aug 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			37 car factories in England all receiving massive UK government subsidies and start up £££££s
None in Scotland
Equal partners in the UK...............I think not.
		
Click to expand...

We had one in Linwood, it was shut probably because the quality of what they produced was rubbish for huge cost.


----------



## spongebob59 (Aug 27, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298869856104841216


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			We had one in Linwood, it was shut probably because the quality of what they produced was rubbish for huge cost.
		
Click to expand...

You never miss a chance to run down your country do you.
British Leyland....remember them.

BTW the SNP were hardly a thing when Linwood closed,, that was a SLab baddddddd.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			You really need to check your facts. The vast majority of those are old British marques that have been around for decades. There are only a handful of new plants since we joined the EU such as Honda and Nissan.
		
Click to expand...

Seriiously.........Rover, British Leyland  etc cost a fortune to UK taxpayers in subsidies


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## PNWokingham (Aug 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seriiously.........Rover, British Leyland  etc cost a fortune to UK taxpayers in subsidies
		
Click to expand...

and the sorry state of British Leyland and the rest of the poor stuff produced in the 70s was caused mainly by militant union-driven practises holding the country to ransom - Maggie sorted that out!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and the sorry state of British Leyland and the rest of the poor stuff produced in the 70s was caused mainly by militant union-driven practises holding the country to ransom - Maggie sorted that out!!
		
Click to expand...

Glad you agree with me on something for a change


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## funkycoldmedina (Aug 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and the sorry state of British Leyland and the rest of the poor stuff produced in the 70s was caused mainly by militant union-driven practises holding the country to ransom - Maggie sorted that out!!
		
Click to expand...

She may have sorted out the militant unions and poor manufacturing base but she didn't have the foresight to think they'd needed replacing hence the lamentable job situation in the North of England and Scotland. Areas that were once the workhorse of the UK are now the benefit and low skilled job centres.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 28, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and the sorry state of British Leyland and the rest of the poor stuff produced in the 70s was caused mainly by militant union-driven practises holding the country to ransom - Maggie sorted that out!!
		
Click to expand...

Sadly, but unsurprisingly, she left the real culprits of manufacturing failures untouched...

Snout in the trough management... I mean it's not been unknown for them to get gongs for failure...
As long as you know the right handshake all failings get forgiven...


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## Sweep (Aug 28, 2020)

Tweeted by HM Treasury yesterday...


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## Sweep (Aug 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We shall be welcomed with open arms, everyone in Europe loves the Scots.

Click to expand...

England is in Europe.
Pity some Scots don’t return the favour.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299031791362334725
Joanna pointing out to the UK justice minister that he does not have a clue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

Sweep said:



			England is in Europe.
Pity some Scots don’t return the favour.
		
Click to expand...

I would advise you not say those words too loudly in some areas of England.


----------



## KenL (Aug 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			She may have sorted out the militant unions and poor manufacturing base but she didn't have the foresight to think they'd needed replacing hence the lamentable job situation in the North of England and Scotland. Areas that were once the workhorse of the UK are now the benefit and low skilled job centres.
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty jobs in Scotland.


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## Sweep (Aug 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would advise you not say those words too loudly in some areas of England.

Click to expand...

Everyone knows England is in Europe. And just like Scotland, it’s not in the EU.


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## KenL (Aug 28, 2020)

Just saying...


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## Fade and Die (Aug 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			Just saying...
	View attachment 32192

Click to expand...

Looks good but the SNP benefit Junkies think they can get even more if they dip their hand into the EU pockets.


----------



## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			There are plenty jobs in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

Yep at the nuclear sub base which Doom wants to get rid of.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2020)

Mildly amusing to see some misguided folk still believe that GERS, a Tory party financial ploy to make Scotland look poor bears any resemblance to anything.
Still no sign of those GERE figures boys.


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## KenL (Aug 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mildly amusing to see some misguided folk still believe that GERS, a Tory party financial ploy to make Scotland look poor bears any resemblance to anything.
Still no sign of those GERE figures boys.

Click to expand...

Well, I believed they were Scotgov figures.
Have you any reliable sources that show the "real" picture?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2020)

Gers actually compares Income within Scotland to expenditure for Scotland.
That is like comparing haddock to Mars bars.

It is a method of shovelling a portion of England's massive debts onto Scotland.
If you are being serious about this and want to broaden your knowledge, listen to Richard Murphy on the Wee Ginger Dug podcast, 42 minute of your time but you will have a much better understanding of GERS at the end of it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/08/28/dugcast-fae-the-dughoose-with-prof-richard-murphy/

Gers for Dummies the short.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14


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## Old Skier (Aug 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gers actually compares Income within Scotland to expenditure for Scotland.
That is like comparing haddock to Mars bars.

It is a method of shovelling a portion of England's massive debts onto Scotland.
If you are being serious about this and want to broaden your knowledge, listen to Richard Murphy on the Wee Ginger Dug podcast, 42 minute of your time but you will have a much better understanding of GERS at the end of it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/08/28/dugcast-fae-the-dughoose-with-prof-richard-murphy/

Click to expand...

Perhaps a link to the official Scottish Gov web site might have more impact.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Aug 29, 2020)

I'd never heard of Richard Murphy until a couple of days ago when Andrew Neil retweeted this picture. I guess you can add DfT to the right hand side.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'd never heard of Richard Murphy until a couple of days ago when Andrew Neil retweeted this picture. I guess you can add DfT to the right hand side.
View attachment 32196

Click to expand...

It is data that states how Scotland sits within the UK, following the rules that whoever is in control of the UK from Westminster wishes to imposes.
You need to look outside the bubble.
166 estimates within the GERS figures, that is 166 made up numbers, who do you think makes up those numbers.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Aug 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is data that states how Scotland sits within the UK, following the rules that whoever is in control of the UK from Westminster wishes to imposes.
You need to look outside the bubble.
166 estimates within the GERS figures, that is 166 made up numbers, who do you think makes up those numbers.
		
Click to expand...

It's a bit rich for you to suggest someone else needs to look outside the bubble. Something about pots and kettles springs to mind. 

Those 166 estimates were made with the approval of the Scottish government. And I also believe that it wasn't 166 estimates but that the word estimate was used in the document 166 times which isn't the same thing.


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gers actually compares Income within Scotland to expenditure for Scotland.
That is like comparing haddock to Mars bars.

It is a method of shovelling a portion of England's massive debts onto Scotland.
If you are being serious about this and want to broaden your knowledge, listen to Richard Murphy on the Wee Ginger Dug podcast, 42 minute of your time but you will have a much better understanding of GERS at the end of it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/08/28/dugcast-fae-the-dughoose-with-prof-richard-murphy/

Gers for Dummies the short.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14

Click to expand...

you are living in cloud cuckoo fantasy land. Look at the post 1439 - £15.1bn more spent on public services in Scxotland than Scott
land takes in taxes. That will be your hole to fill that does not occur by being in the UK - £1941 per person Union dividend. That helps towards your free prescriptions, free university and your exemplorary school system! From this figure you can take off X amount of tax as the jobs at Nuclear bases and other Government positions are repatriated. Then you can take off X for increased costs off servicing debt - if that is you can actually finance it (a big question mark with no plans that i have seen). Then another X for increased costs associated with setting up departments needed for an independant country (Treasury and other government departments that you will have to create or enlarge). Then there will be a further X from trade costs as a newly independant nation with no trade agreements. Etc etc.

But then reality and plans are pie in the sky for the SNIP - after all you will be free to do your own policies, much better and more efficiently than being part og the UK! 

And please explain England's massive debts? The UK has debt - we borrow, in part to pay the Scottish Union dividend and service the rest of the budget defecit, including the much larger defecit up North! When you leave you will have to take pro-rata of UK debt. This stood at £1,878bn as at March - and we funded a £60bn budget defecit last year (less than 3% of GDP - Scottish budget defecit is still 8.6% of GDP). Given the massive increase in borrowing we are likely at or about £2,000 debt now. Scotland is roughly 8.2% of the UK poulation. So you will need to take roughly £165bn worth of your new Braveheart currency. How that works in reality is also something that I have not seen anything on - although i suspect the only solution will be akin to an 8.2% promisary note on all existing UK Gilts.

Maybe if the Scottish people actually knew the reality of leaving and the absence of any plans or logic around these issues it may tip the balance back in favour of staying. But that is your call - i just hope that Wee Jimmy has the honesty to highlight all the key issues and share her plans around them so the Scottish public can judge for themselves


----------



## Leftie (Aug 29, 2020)

You're only wasting your time posting sense Paul.  We all know that Dft doesn't really believe most of the crap he posts - most of the time he's only fishing.

After all, no-one could really be that myopic, could they


----------



## chrisd (Aug 29, 2020)

Leftie said:



			You're only wasting your time posting sense Paul.  We all know that Dft doesn't really believe most of the crap he posts - most of the time he's only fishing.

After all, no-one could really be that myopic, could they

Click to expand...

Yep, he's 100% on a wind up and we are stupid enough to respond to the crap - there again the same applies to others in the Brexit and Coronavirus threads too.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2020)

GERS in a nutshell

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298557862474637313
https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/who...miles and,while I can see for miles and miles 
Specially for Leftie


----------



## KenL (Aug 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gers actually compares Income within Scotland to expenditure for Scotland.
That is like comparing haddock to Mars bars.

It is a method of shovelling a portion of England's massive debts onto Scotland.
If you are being serious about this and want to broaden your knowledge, listen to Richard Murphy on the Wee Ginger Dug podcast, 42 minute of your time but you will have a much better understanding of GERS at the end of it.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/08/28/dugcast-fae-the-dughoose-with-prof-richard-murphy/

Gers for Dummies the short.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14

Click to expand...

I would rather believe official figures and people in the know like Fraser of Allender Institute, Institute for Fiscal Studies, Kevin Hague, A Neill rather than some biased indy take on things.


----------



## Leftie (Aug 29, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/who/icanseeformiles.html#:~:text=I can see for miles and miles and,while I can see for miles and miles
Specially for Leftie 

Click to expand...

Don't waste your time mate.  I only once followed one of your links and decided I've better things to do with my life.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 29, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Yep, he's 100% on a wind up and we are stupid enough to respond to the crap - there again the same applies to others in the Brexit and Coronavirus threads too.
		
Click to expand...

Is it a wind up or ignorant Trolling? Only asking for a friend....


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			I would rather believe official figures and people in the know like Fraser of Allender Institute, Institute for Fiscal Studies, Kevin Hague, A Neill rather than some biased indy take on things.
		
Click to expand...

Kevin Hague.

Oh deary mee.....good advice from a dog food salesman.
I know for sure that now you really are on a wind up 

Another big boost for YES as Boris announces yet another trip to Scotland.


----------



## chrisd (Aug 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Is it a wind up or ignorant Trolling? Only asking for a friend....
		
Click to expand...

Trolling Brian,  but hardly ignorant,  he knows exactly what he's doing. Replied to by a friend 🤫


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2020)

Wow.. if things were not bad enough for SLAB.
The few remaining MSP are now calling for the head of leader Richard Whatsisname.
Another one bites the dust.


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## KenL (Aug 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wow.. if things were not bad enough for SLAB.
The few remaining MSP are now calling for the head of leader Richard Whatsisname.
Another one bites the dust.
		
Click to expand...

Labour are irrelevant in Scotland at the moment.  They need to do something.


----------



## ger147 (Aug 31, 2020)

KenL said:



			Labour are irrelevant in Scotland at the moment.  They need to do something.
		
Click to expand...

As you say, irrelevant and he's useless. If they do ditch him, it would do well to make the "and finally" section on the local news.


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## Slab (Aug 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Wow.. if things were not bad enough for SLAB.*
The few remaining MSP are now calling for the head of leader Richard Whatsisname.
Another one bites the dust.
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm fine (ok I could've done without missing that 3 footer on the last at the weekend but i'm not gonna beat myself up over it)


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm fine (ok I could've done without missing that 3 footer on the last at the weekend but i'm not gonna beat myself up over it)
		
Click to expand...

Sorry should have been SLab......the Scottish branch of the UK Labour party.


BTW
Journalist who happily tells bare faced lies about Alex Salmond being upset by politicians being slightly untruthful.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...f-difficult-answers/ar-BB18zS1s?ocid=msedgdhp


----------



## KenL (Sep 1, 2020)

Please explain lies about Salmond?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			Please explain lies about Salmond?
		
Click to expand...

If you are Scottish please explain how you could not possibly know about Nick Robinson telling lies about Alex Salmond.
Just one click away.


----------



## KenL (Sep 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are Scottish please explain how you could not possibly know about Nick Robinson telling lies about Alex Salmond.
Just one click away.
		
Click to expand...

I'm British so I have no idea.


----------



## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2020)

KenL said:



			I'm British so I have no idea.
		
Click to expand...

Bit weird that someone would say they’re British as if that meant they couldn’t also be Scottish. Displays a startling level of ignorance.


----------



## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Bit weird that someone would say they’re British as if that meant they couldn’t also be Scottish. Displays a startling level of ignorance.
		
Click to expand...

That is nonsense.  My country of birth is Scotland but my nationality is British.
That's what we were taught at school to put on job applications.
I still get that option on ethnicity surveys too.


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## Kellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			That is nonsense.  My country of birth is Scotland but my nationality is British.
That's what we were taught at school to put on job applications.
I still get that option on ethnicity surveys too.
		
Click to expand...

You do realise that you are Scottish though?


----------



## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

Born in Scotland but I've



Kellfire said:



			You do realise that you are Scottish though?
		
Click to expand...

If the definition of Scottish is being born there then perhaps I am Scottish.  My nationality is British though.

My United Kingdom passport for Great Britain & Northern Ireland might agree with me.
Note, no mention of Scotland there.


----------



## Kellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			Born in Scotland but I've

If the definition of Scottish is being born there then perhaps I am Scottish.  My nationality is British though.

My United Kingdom passport for Great Britain & Northern Ireland might agree with me.
Note, no mention of Scotland there.
		
Click to expand...

Ok I think we’ve got you to admit you’re Scottish. That was tough.


----------



## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ok I think we’ve got you to admit you’re Scottish. That was tough.
		
Click to expand...

I would support Scotland playing England but would NOT be shouting "get into these English barstewards" as a lot of the crowd would.  That really makes me cringe.
I support England (Wales and NI) playing anyone else as I see them as my fellow countrymen.


----------



## Kellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			I would support Scotland playing England but would NOT be shouting "get into these English barstewards" as a lot of the crowd would.  That really makes me cringe.
I support England (Wales and NI) playing anyone else as I see them as my fellow countrymen.
		
Click to expand...

That’s fine. I’m not asking who you feel allegiance to, that’s a different matter altogether.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 2, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ok I think we’ve got you to admit you’re Scottish. That was tough.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have to work at being an arse or does it come naturally?


----------



## Kellfire (Sep 2, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Do you have to work at being an arse or does it come naturally?
		
Click to expand...

Love you, too, sweet cheeks. I know you wouldn’t be giving me direct personal abuse because that’s against the rules.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2020)

Direct political smear by the Tory party against an opposition party leader puts him and his family at risk from extremists. 
Johnson shrugs, bellows and splutters something that has no meaning at all...no denial, no apology .........classless buffoon.


----------



## chrisd (Sep 2, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Do you have to work at being an arse or does it come naturally?
		
Click to expand...

Why not start a poll?

I know which way I'd vote 😁👍


----------



## PNWokingham (Sep 2, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Do you have to work at being an arse or does it come naturally?
		
Click to expand...

he has a god-given talent!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			I would support Scotland playing England but would NOT be shouting "get into these English barstewards" as a lot of the crowd would.  That really makes me cringe.
I support England (Wales and NI) playing anyone else as I see them as my fellow countrymen.
		
Click to expand...

Oh really  I can recall many occasions when I heard  all those English soccer and rugger fans shouting 'jolly hard luck chaps' when a Scottish penalty was missed'


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2020)

When do you recon is a good time to tell tonight's Facebook zoomers that the words of Rule Britannia were written by a Scot.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

Good to see that Nicola Sturgeon has been taking tips from Boris on how to deliver a clear message on lockdown. Families in parts of Glasgow can no longer meet with other families in their own homes. They can however get on a bus with them to go and have a pub crawl round a few bars and then go to a restaurant for a meal together.


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## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			When do you recon is a good time to tell tonight's Facebook zoomers that the words of Rule Britannia were written by a Scot.

Click to expand...

That "Scot" was probably British like me.


----------



## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Good to see that Nicola Sturgeon has been taking tips from Boris on how to deliver a clear message on lockdown. Families in parts of Glasgow can no longer meet with other families in their own homes. They can however get on a bus with them to go and have a pub crawl round a few bars and then go to a restaurant for a meal together. 

Click to expand...

I was planning on visiting by late 80s parents in the next week.  Now I'll have to wait on my glorious leader telling me it is allowed.  Pathetic.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			I was planning on visiting by late 80s parents in the next week.  Now I'll have to wait on my glorious leader telling me it is allowed.  Pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming that they live in one of the areas of Glasgow affected by the new rules then you are still allowed to go and visit them. You'll just have to do it in a pub or restaurant potentially surrounded by loads of other people rather than just the three of you in their garden or house.


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			I was planning on visiting by late 80s parents in the next week.  Now I'll have to wait on my glorious leader telling me it is allowed.  Pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

The Chief Medical Officer in Scotland was on Channel 4 news and was saying all the outbreaks can be linked back to large house gatherings hence the more nuanced lockdown whereas Aberdeen was linked to a couple of bars. Seems a much more sensible approach that good quality test and tracing is allowing us not to have blanket lockdown again.


----------



## KenL (Sep 2, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The Chief Medical Officer in Scotland was on Channel 4 news and was saying all the outbreaks can be linked back to large house gatherings hence the more nuanced lockdown whereas Aberdeen was linked to a couple of bars. Seems a much more sensible approach that good quality test and tracing is allowing us not to have blanket lockdown again.
		
Click to expand...

Me visiting Mum and Dad is not a large house gathering.
Ban large gatherings yes, but a total ban on visiting people is a step too far when they are still allowing people to gather in sizeable numbers in pubs.


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			Me visiting Mum and Dad is not a large house gathering.
Ban large gatherings yes, but a total ban on visiting people is a step too far when they are still allowing people to gather in sizeable numbers in pubs.
		
Click to expand...

It's only for a week to begin with. Banning them all stops the interpretation element. If infections start occurring from pubs then I'm sure they'll get included


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2020)

I thought Swinney was quite clear about the rationale when questioned on the why not 'homes' when 'pubs/restaurants' OK. 

As mentioned - the contact tracing had taken things back to get-togethers in houses and not pubs, restaurants - or indeed any other non-domestic setting. 

Why might that be the case? he was asked?  Answer was rather obvious - people and groups 'gathering' in pubs and restaurants are generally pretty well 'managed' into adhering to the rules.  That is not the case when groups meet up in someones house when (and I have seen it myself) many are more relaxed over their adherence to the rules - as if they don't really apply to quite the same extent in that setting. 

It's as if some think that as you can 'get away with it' in a domestic setting then it doesn't matter if you don't adhere strictly to all the rules.  Because you can't be seen by anyone outside of the house then we can't be pulled p by anyone. 

If nobody sees us breaking the rules then we can't be pulled up for breaking the rules and the only thing that really matters is not being pulled up.  Families and friends can still meet up outdoors or in a 'managed' setting.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			Me visiting Mum and Dad is not a large house gathering.
Ban large gatherings yes, but a total ban on visiting people is a step too far *when they are still allowing people to gather in sizeable numbers in pubs.*

Click to expand...

Especially when, as funkycoldmedina has pointed out, the outbreaks in Aberdeen were linked to bars. My opinion is that with the occasional exception, such as the Nike conference and care homes, Nicola Sturgeon has handled the virus response pretty well, but I think that this is a poor decision. Why are pubs and restaurants in Glasgow any different to pubs and restaurants in Aberdeen?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought Swinney was quite clear about the rationale when questioned on the why not 'homes' when 'pubs/restaurants' OK.

*As mentioned - the contact tracing had taken things back to get-togethers in houses and not pubs, restaurants - or indeed any other non-domestic setting.*

Why might that be the case? he was asked?  Answer was rather obvious - *people and groups 'gathering' in pubs and restaurants are generally pretty well 'managed' into adhering to the rules.  That is not the case when groups meet up in someones house when (and I have seen it myself) many are more relaxed over their adherence to the rules - as if they don't really apply to quite the same extent in that setting.*

Click to expand...

Which is fine, apart from the fact that the outbreaks in Aberdeen were linked to bars. If pubs are unsafe in Aberdeen during an outbreak then they are equally as unsafe in Glasgow.


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Sep 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Especially when, as funkycoldmedina has pointed out, the outbreaks in Aberdeen were linked to bars. My opinion is that with the occasional exception, such as the Nike conference and care homes, Nicola Sturgeon has handled the virus response pretty well, but I think that this is a poor decision. Why are pubs and restaurants in Glasgow any different to pubs and restaurants in Aberdeen?
		
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Probably it's under constant review, if new clusters start popping up from pubs/restaurants then they'll go. This is how good localised test and trace should work. Nip in the bud what is causing the issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which is fine, apart from the fact that the outbreaks in Aberdeen were linked to bars. If pubs are unsafe in Aberdeen during an outbreak then they are equally as unsafe in Glasgow.
		
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The outbreaks in Aberdeen were traced back directly to some Aberdeen pubs and not homes.  If these pubs were not managed very well back then then I suspect the owners and managers will be more stringent in applying and enforcing the rules when reopened (if theyt are not already reopened).

Other side of coin is that Glasgow pubs/restaurants may well have learned a lesson from what has happened in Aberdeen and so are being diligent to avoid being closed down.  Fact seems to be that the case tracing in Glasgow went back to the domestic setting and not the leisure/hospitality one as it did in Aberdeen,


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Probably it's under constant review, if new clusters start popping up from pubs/restaurants then they'll go. This is how good localised test and trace should work.* Nip in the bud what is causing the issue.*

Click to expand...

KenL going to visit his parents isn't what is causing the issue but he's now prevented from legally doing that. "Large house gatherings" are apparently what are causing the outbreaks, so why not stop large house gatherings instead. Introduce a simple rule of no more than 4/6/8 people from two households to meet indoors in a private residence. That stops any "interpretation element" without penalising those that are following the rules.


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## funkycoldmedina (Sep 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			KenL going to visit his parents isn't what is causing the issue but he's now prevented from legally doing that. "Large house gatherings" are apparently what are causing the outbreaks, so why not stop large house gatherings instead. Introduce a simple rule of no more than 4/6/8 people from two households to meet indoors in a private residence. That stops any "interpretation element" without penalising those that are following the rules.
		
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Maybe that's an option but you can see why they've gone down the route they have.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe that's an option but you can see why they've gone down the route they have.
		
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No, I can't, otherwise I wouldn't have said that I think that this is a poor decision. I think it's actually a very weak decision by a government that is afraid, in this instance, to take stronger action.


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## KenL (Sep 3, 2020)

Perhaps it is because Glasgow has an SNP led council and was one of only two places that narrowly supported indy in 2014.
The leader of Aberdeen Council said something similar after they had everything stopped for 3 weeks.

Were there less cases in Aberdeen too, not sure?


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## KenL (Sep 3, 2020)

Did someone suggest Glasgow pubs are well controlled?
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news...off-glasgows-sanctuary-nightclub-beer-garden/


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2020)

Last time I looked Glasgow's population was around x4 to Aberdeen, so I would expect more cases in Glasgow.

IMO this is more to do with schools returning, 3 weeks in Scotland now.
We all know that within the first two weeks of school return the common cold virus is much more active once pupils start mixing.
There is also the help grapevine when, before and after school, working parents collect children from friends and family groups in other households.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2020)

KenL said:



			That "Scot" was probably British like me.
		
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Of course he was, but I dare you to try telling that to some of the Faragetttes on facebook.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			No, I can't, otherwise I wouldn't have said that I think that this is a poor decision. I think it's actually a very weak decision by a government that is afraid, in this instance, to take stronger action.
		
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Unfortunately as it appears that as gatherings in an indoors domestic setting are not visible to the general public or any authority/police - then the actual numbers of separate households meeting up indoors doesn't matter - it is the very fact of separate households meeting up in 'private' that seems to be the issue. Out of sight - we can pretty much act normal as if no constraints.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

KenL said:



			Did someone suggest Glasgow pubs are well controlled?
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news...off-glasgows-sanctuary-nightclub-beer-garden/

Click to expand...

Well...that's Glasgow for you...a bunch of neds is a bunch of neds forever...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well...that's Glasgow for you...a bunch of neds is a bunch of neds forever...
		
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No injuries no arrests, must have been a group of visiting Neds form the provinces.


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## Jacko_G (Sep 3, 2020)

KenL said:



			Me visiting Mum and Dad is not a large house gathering.
Ban large gatherings yes, but a total ban on visiting people is a step too far when they are still allowing people to gather in sizeable numbers in pubs.
		
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Well blame the bloody idiots who can't follow rules. Its only "a step to far as there are brain dead idiots who refuse to adhere to rules. Pubs are a controlled environment.


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## KenL (Sep 3, 2020)

On the news today was a story of a house party at the weekend in Midlothian with claims of up to 300 people going.  Apparently someone was charging entry.
Madness that people would want to go to something like that even without a pandemic.


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## KenL (Sep 3, 2020)

Just had the pleasure of reviewing my electoral registration form...


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## KenL (Sep 3, 2020)

It can with this poster and that people of 14 can now register to vote.


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## banjofred (Sep 4, 2020)

16 is just too young to vote........why not 12?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

banjofred said:



			16 is just too young to vote........why not 12?
		
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At 16 you can pay tax, legally marry and join the armed forces. Why should you not have the vote. 12 year olds are very limited in what they can do without their parents consent
More 16 years olds will have a much clearer view of the world than many 86 year olds and they will be voting for their future, not their past.

PS....I smell money
https://extranet.nationalgrid.com/RealTime


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			No, I can't, otherwise I wouldn't have said that I think that this is a poor decision. I think it's actually a very weak decision by a government that is afraid, in this instance, to take stronger action.
		
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I see where you are coming from, but SILH makes a point that you seem to not want to acknowledge. And that is that in a house meet up some are no doubt able to break SD rules and not be seen to do so. I.e hugging each other and close contact like that.
 So, people like yourself wouldn't do that, whether or not you would be seen to be doing it,  but you have to accept that a lot of people, if allowed to be together , will not adhere to the rules as you and some others will.
It is one of those cases where the law abiding have to suffer because of the behaviour of those that think not being found out is the real thing that matters.


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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At 16 you can pay tax, legally marry and join the armed forces. Why should you not have the vote. 12 year olds are very limited in what they can do without their parents consent
More 16 years olds will have a much clearer view of the world than many 86 year olds and they will be voting for their future, not their past.

PS....I smell money
https://extranet.nationalgrid.com/RealTime

Click to expand...

This is a great day in my life.  I agree with Doon at last. 😇


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## banjofred (Sep 4, 2020)

How many 16 years olds....still in school.....are easily influenced by peer pressure? psssst....most.
How many 16 year olds *fight* in a war?
How many 16 year olds are allowed to buy their own booze?
How many 16 year olds can get their drivers license?
How many young (pick the age on this) pretty well ignored the rules on not partying  and helping to spread the virus?
How come the young voters just don't bother to vote in as big a % as older voters? You know.....because it's so important for their futures?

See.....I can pick and choose as well.....

There is no *right* answer on age...for some, they are pretty mature at 16. For most......not so much. I'm 63 and still act like an idiot.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

I wonder if the new BBC chiefs anti bias stance will include BBC Scotland.
I have my doubts.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 4, 2020)




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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



View attachment 32264

Click to expand...

Indy supporters will not believe that and claim they are English figures.

Or, they won't care as they only have 2 reasons to exist.  Independence and hatred of the English.

They remind me of the story of lemmings and how they are meant to throw themselves off a cliff.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			Indy supporters will not believe that and claim they are English figures.

Or, they won't care as they only have 2 reasons to exist.  Independence and hatred of the English.

They remind me of the story of lemmings and how they are meant to throw themselves off a cliff.
		
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I think you need to re read your post........pause for thought.....breath............and then re-consider.


PNWokingham said:



View attachment 32264

Click to expand...

.....under Westminster rule.
Strange how that figure goes skywards just before 2014.........did something happen that year.


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## banjofred (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder if the new BBC chiefs anti bias stance will include BBC Scotland.
I have my doubts.

Click to expand...

I have my doubts about most things BBC......


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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you need to re read your post........pause for thought.....breath............and then re-consider.

.....under Westminster rule.
Strange how that figure goes skywards just before 2014.........did something happen that year.

Click to expand...

No I don't, that's how it is for a lot of them.

Are you like that? 🤔


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			No I don't, that's how it is for a lot of them.

Are you like that? 🤔
		
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Ok I shall make it simple for you................ in my immediate circle of friends, neighbours and family I have at least five English people who are in favour of Independence for Scotland.
In your little enclosed world those five would all be 'English Haters'.
I don't expect a reply.


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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ok I shall make it simple for you................ in my immediate circle of friends, neighbours and family I have at least five English people who are in favour of Independence for Scotland.
In your little enclosed world those five would all be 'English Haters'.
I don't expect a reply.
		
Click to expand...

You are such a cheeky person (the readers should feel free to replace the word person as they see fit).

You do not need to make anything simple for me.  Tell me what you have achieved in life, the heights you have reached and the lives of others you have enriched.  I'll consider doing likewise, then we'll see who needs for things to be kept simple. 😂


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## Leftie (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			... in my immediate circle of friends, neighbours and family I have at least five English people who are in favour of Independence for Scotland.
		
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Perhaps they are trying to tell you something .....


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ok I shall make it simple for you................ in my immediate circle of friends, neighbours and family* I have at least five English people who are in favour of Independence for Scotland.*
In your little enclosed world those five would all be 'English Haters'.
I don't expect a reply.
		
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I reckon they just tell you that to shut you up.... “yes Doon your 100% right...lets talk about something else shall we😴”


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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I reckon they just tell you that to shut you up.... “yes Doon your 100% right...lets talk about something else shall we😴”
		
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Bang on there. 🤣


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## KenL (Sep 4, 2020)

Just had a look at Doon's profile.  Is there anyone with a lower ratio of likes to posts? 🤭


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I reckon they just tell you that to shut you up.... “yes Doon your 100% right...lets talk about something else shall we😴”
		
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The exact opposite old chap, one persuaded me of the benefits of an Independent Scotland.
Try again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			Bang on there. 🤣
		
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No answer then to the.... do English supporters of an Independent Scotland hate England question.
Not suiting your closed agenda so we revert to the normal unionist stance of hot air and insults.
.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The exact opposite old chap, one persuaded me of the benefits of an Independent Scotland.
Try again.
		
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Yeah sure, as lady Doon pushes drinks into Your guests hands whilst proclaiming a bit too loudly “you’ll never guess who I saw at Farmfoods last week?”  😂😂


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Yeah sure, as lady Doon pushes drinks into Your guests hands whilst proclaiming a bit too loudly “you’ll never guess who I saw at Farmfoods last week?”  😂😂
		
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 Lady Doon is TT and certainly does not shop at Farmfoods [whoever they are] 
Insults is all you seem to have left, I thought the Mods were trying to put a stop to that.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lady Doon is TT and certainly does not shop at Farmfoods [whoever they are]
Insults is all you seem to have left, I thought the Mods were trying to put a stop to that.
		
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What Insults?....You sure are a sensitive old soul.

Maybe you feel a little vulnerable outside your Echo Chamber?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The exact opposite old chap, *one persuaded me of the benefits of an Independent Scotland*.
Try again.
		
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The benefits for who, an independent Scotland or the benefits for the rest of the UK of Scotland being independent?


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## KenL (Sep 5, 2020)

Scottish nationalism. 🙄


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## PNWokingham (Sep 5, 2020)

KenL said:



View attachment 32267

Scottish nationalism. 🙄
		
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ah. So now we can put a face to a name for Doon!


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## KenL (Sep 5, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			ah. So now we can put a face to a name for Doon!
		
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🤣😂🤣


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## azazel (Sep 5, 2020)

British nationalism 🙄


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## azazel (Sep 5, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



View attachment 32264

Click to expand...

https://theferret.scot/gers-union-dividend-2000-scottish-independence/


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## KenL (Sep 5, 2020)

azazel said:



https://theferret.scot/gers-union-dividend-2000-scottish-independence/

Click to expand...

That looks a really reliable and believable source!


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## azazel (Sep 5, 2020)

KenL said:



			That looks a really reliable and believable source!
		
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I’m guessing you didn’t read it then?

*Ferret Fact Service (FFS)* is a non-partisan fact checker, and a signatory to the International Fact-Checking Network fact-checkers’ code of principles. All the sources used in our checks are publicly available and the FFS fact-checking methodology can be viewed here. Want to suggest a fact check? Go to ideas.theferret.scot, email us at factcheck@theferret.scot or join our Facebook group.


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## KenL (Sep 5, 2020)

Given that it has a big banner with Mike Russell saying its not true I see it as biased.

Just because they claim they check facts means nothing.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ok I shall make it simple for you................ in my immediate circle of friends, neighbours and family I have at least five English people who are in favour of Independence for Scotland.
In your little enclosed world those five would all be 'English Haters'.
I don't expect a reply.
		
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As most of your family and friends live in England they are definitely telling you something. Did they like you spend your working life in England because you couldn’t find a decent job in Scotland.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2020)

Funny how Doom wants to remove the same advantages he had from those who still live in Scotland.


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## azazel (Sep 5, 2020)

It’s funny how a good number of posters have given up on arguing the merits or otherwise of independence and are now just ganging up on one particular poster who is vocal in having a different point of view. Like kids in a playground.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 5, 2020)

azazel said:



			It’s funny how a good number of posters have given up on arguing the merits or otherwise of independence and are now just ganging up on one particular poster who is vocal in having a different point of view. Like kids in a playground.
		
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Myself and many others posted all about facts but he ignores them all and tries to make jokes! Happy to see the independance minded offer some solutions to the core issues mentioned?


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2020)

A good piece by someone who should know what they are talking about.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...o-bankrupt-scotland?__twitter_impression=true


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## PNWokingham (Sep 6, 2020)

KenL said:



			A good piece by someone who should know what they are talking about.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...o-bankrupt-scotland?__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

.....as has been mentioned several times over recent pages -  with a response along the lines of "but i am sure it would be OK as Scotland will be in charge of its finances and do things differently"!! No  Sherlock that they would have to do it differently......And the mushy froth and waffle with zero substance that Doon and the gang offer as evidence of the way forward.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 6, 2020)

Sean Clerkin......sorry guys but you have just proved that you are absolutely clueless.
Please tell me what independence group he is a member of.

And ..........while you are at it you still have not answered my question about the many members of the  http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/.
Do you think that they hate themselves.


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## KenL (Sep 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sean Clerkin......sorry guys but you have just proved that you are absolutely clueless.
Please tell me what independence group he is a member of.

And ..........while you are at it you still have not answered my question about the many members of the  http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/.
Do you think that they hate themselves.

Click to expand...

I didn't claim he was a member of any group.  He's a donkey - end of.

I see the English "scots" for yes are a large organisation.  Are these your 5 pals? 🤪


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## Fade and Die (Sep 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sean Clerkin......sorry guys but you have just proved that you are absolutely clueless.
Please tell me what independence group he is a member of.

And ..........while you are at it you still have not answered my question about the many members of the  http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/.
Do you think that they hate themselves.

Click to expand...


😂😂😂You must be desperate to post this...Apart from the name not really making any sense it’s hardly a hotbed of Stockholm syndrome(ism?), last post was March 2019 by a certain Math Campbell-Sturges a former SNP Counciller from Greenock! Post before that, the same SNP councillor (who identifies as Scottish btw) way back in June 2018!.....
  It’s an obvious front for the SNP who have a reputation of spreading fakery.... “och it looks like the eu have left a light on for us” 
#unionjock🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👍


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## PNWokingham (Sep 6, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sean Clerkin......sorry guys but you have just proved that you are absolutely clueless.
Please tell me what independence group he is a member of.

And ..........while you are at it you still have not answered my question about the many members of the  http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/.
Do you think that they hate themselves.

Click to expand...

waste of spaxe respose..as usual


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302549743386660866


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2020)

KenL said:



			I didn't claim he was a member of any group.  He's a donkey - end of.

I see the English "scots" for yes are a large organisation.  Are these your 5 pals? 🤪
View attachment 32288

Click to expand...

Very good, but in your own words some of these English must guys hate the English.


Fade and Die said:



			😂😂😂You must be desperate to post this...Apart from the name not really making any sense it’s hardly a hotbed of Stockholm syndrome(ism?), last post was March 2019 by a certain Math Campbell-Sturges a former SNP Counciller from Greenock! Post before that, the same SNP councillor (who identifies as Scottish btw) way back in June 2018!.....
  It’s an obvious front for the SNP who have a reputation of spreading fakery.... “och it looks like the eu have left a light on for us”
#unionjock🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👍
		
Click to expand...

Strange that as the very few Scots that are aware of Clerckin see him as a Unionist stooge/agitator.
Par for the course. as the Farage/Brexit types were not the brightest at fact checking posters.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good, but in your own words some of these English must guys hate the English.


Strange that as the very few Scots that are aware of Clerckin see him as a Unionist stooge/agitator.
Par for the course. as the Farage/Brexit types were *not the brightest at fact checking posters*.
		
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Oh dear, since i made no mention of Clerkin in my post and was just picking you up on your Englishscots comment it is you who comes across rather Dim old boy.

Nice generalisation BTW


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh dear, since i made no mention of Clerkin in my post and was just picking you up on your Englishscots comment it is you who comes across rather Dim old boy.

Nice generalisation BTW

Click to expand...

Clerkin was mentioned in the post you replied to.
How was I to know.


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good, but in your own words some of these English must guys hate the English.


Strange that as the very few Scots that are aware of Clerckin see him as a Unionist stooge/agitator.
Par for the course. as the Farage/Brexit types were not the brightest at fact checking posters.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I've got to laugh. Farage/Brexit types sought independence from the EU. You seek independence from rUK... just who is the brightest types?

BTW, I have no problem with Scots seeking independence, just thought your post was, at best, ironic.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but I've got to laugh. Farage/Brexit types sought independence from the EU. You seek independence from rUK... just who is the brightest types?

BTW, I have no problem with Scots seeking independence, just thought your post was, at best, ironic.
		
Click to expand...

My money would be on the Scots to be able to read and understand posters better than the Farage/Brexit types.
I am not sure how the Scots/Farage/Brexit types would fare, they are an entirely different thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2020)

Another Tory MP's utter failure to grasp any sense of reality.
So out of touch that even Baroness Davidson [who does not want to be called Baroness Davidson] agrees.
ww.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tory-mp-condemned-for-racist-tweet-blaming-scottish-labour-s-failures-on-leader-s-english-accent/ar-BB18NlxN?ocid=msedgdhp


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2020)

Closed as per Mike's post of 8/9/2020 banning political threads (see top of OOB)


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