# Madeleine McCann



## 3offTheTee (Oct 13, 2013)

Let me say at the outset how sorry I feel for the parents' after all this time and nothing would please me more if she was found.

There is another programme on TV tomorrow and how they have managed to keep the search alive for so long is incredible.

However they were at fault initially and I would hate to guess the cost involved which will I fear achieve little.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 13, 2013)

Its shocking how long this has gone on for.
However it does show that hope remains,probably due to the incompetence of the police initially.
I will watch and draw my conclsions,however I don't think we will learn much more,probably more
unanswered questions.


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 13, 2013)

I don't understand the importance of this one particular child. I'm confident there are plenty of missing children who with 1/2 of the gusto put into the search for MM would be found within the UK.

The parents were at fault, I can't even contemplate leaving my son (4) on his own, anywhere, let alone in a foreign country in a hotel room! That does not mean it is ENTIRELY their fault, but their omission is as much to blame as the person/people who took her.

Unless this girl has some cure for cancer or an equation to turn water into an all nourishing compound which will stop world hunger I do not understand why public money (which it now is as the police are involved) is being spent on this "lost" cause.


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## sev112 (Oct 13, 2013)

Well, I for one, at least, am glad that some public money is still being spent on trying to locate a 10 (?) year ol girl whose current life I cannot even bring myself to think about.  In my world, that is wha I would hope would be done .

Must admit I wouldn't equate fault equally on the parents as the abductor !?


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## chrisd (Oct 13, 2013)

sev112 said:



			Well, I for one, at least, am glad that some public money is still being spent on trying to locate a 10 (?) year ol girl whose current life I cannot even bring myself to think about.  In my world, that is wha I would hope would be done .

Must admit I wouldn't equate fault equally on the parents as the abductor !?
		
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I agree Sev.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Oct 13, 2013)

sev112 said:



			Well, I for one, at least, am glad that some public money is still being spent on trying to locate a 10 (?) year ol girl whose current life I cannot even bring myself to think about.  In my world, that is wha I would hope would be done .

Must admit I wouldn't equate fault equally on the parents as the abductor !?
		
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Agree with your quote. What on earth were they thinking that night when they left the kids home alone!!!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 13, 2013)

I'll watch it but fear this case will only ever have one sad and inevitable outcome. Personally if she isn't already dead I fear that any abductee may kill her if the net ever closes in. I pray I'm wrong but lets see if the programme can change my view to something more positive


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 13, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Agree with your quote. What on earth were they thinking that night when they left the kids home alone!!!!
		
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You'd think a couple of Doctors wouldn't be so stupid & selfish as to leave their children alone so they can go out for a meal.


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2013)

Like others, I wouldn't leave the kids alone, but I guess it is easier to be so sure after this tragedy. 

I hope the UK Police can bring this case to a close, hopefully in a positive way, and clearly the local Portuguese police botched it. and I do not begrudge my tax money being spent on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			I don't understand the importance of this one particular child. I'm confident there are plenty of missing children who with 1/2 of the gusto put into the search for MM would be found within the UK.

The parents were at fault, I can't even contemplate leaving my son (4) on his own, anywhere, let alone in a foreign country in a hotel room! That does not mean it is ENTIRELY their fault, but their omission is as much to blame as the person/people who took her.

Unless this girl has some cure for cancer or an equation to turn water into an all nourishing compound which will stop world hunger I do not understand why public money (which it now is as the police are involved) is being spent on this "lost" cause.
		
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I think that you are wrong on all counts.  

1) I do not know numbers but I suspect that there are very few if any current missing young UK children for whom there is not an active 'hunt';
2) Even consideration of apportioning blame to the parents is heartless and lacking in humanity; to use that as a part-rationale for being 'fed-up' and that we shouldn't bother with the case any longer is frankly pretty disgraceful
3) By raising a 'value for public money' argument - well...

And after all - what does it matter to you...you have not lost your child - your arguments just reek of spitefulness I'm afraid - you won't like that being said but I am afraid it is true.  You may try and dress it up as being 'pragmatic' but I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me.  Happy to be shot down if others think I am way off beam.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Oct 13, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Like others, I wouldn't leave the kids alone, but I guess it is easier to be so sure after this
		
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what kind of parent leaves the kids on ther own even if they was 500 yards away, for a whole evening! These are professional people not some couple of shameless. I can't believe the stupidity.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 13, 2013)

I agree that leaving the kids alone that night was both stupid and selfish.
Surely even before going on holiday they must of spoken about this and what they would do.
However I agree that all avenues should be explored and hopefully an outcome can be reached,wether
good or bad.
I suppose unless anyone is in the position of the McCanns we will never ever know what happened that night,
however they will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives.


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## NWJocko (Oct 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			2) Even consideration of apportioning blame to the parents is heartless and lacking in humanity; to use that as a part-rationale for being 'fed-up' and that we shouldn't bother with the case any longer is frankly pretty disgraceful
.
		
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No, it's the truth. 

I have every sympathy with how tough their lives must have been ever since that night but, and its a big but, they wouldn't have had to go through it if they hadn't consciously chosen to leave her alone. That is a fact.


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you are wrong on all counts.  

1) I do not know numbers but I suspect that there are very few if any current missing young UK children for whom there is not an active 'hunt';
2) Even consideration of apportioning blame to the parents is heartless and lacking in humanity; to use that as a part-rationale for being 'fed-up' and that we shouldn't bother with the case any longer is frankly pretty disgraceful
3) By raising a 'value for public money' argument - well...

And after all - what does it matter to you...you have not lost your child - your arguments just reek of spitefulness I'm afraid - you won't like that being said but I am afraid it is true.  You may try and dress it up as being 'pragmatic' but I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me.  Happy to be shot down if others think I am way off beam.
		
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1. I'm not saying there isn't active hunts, what I'm saying is that the amount of time, effort and money used to find one missing girl in a foreign country may better be used trying to find countless lost children at home. The mccanns have raised substantial funds and instead of building a lost children's foundation (maybe they have, I don't care to research the topic because they disgust me) and using those funds to help struggling families at home find their children. Similar to the families of children who are struck down by cancer or shot by a yobbo.
2. Brushing aside all the niceness around helping grieving people, facts be the facts, and following a "but for" test and you can not deny it. But for the actions of he mccanns to leave their child alone, in a room, out of sight of themselves and any care giver, their child would not be missing. Now, if they were in the room and they were attacked by some baby snatching lune trying to get their kid, that is different I would be supporting their cause.
3. What of it? I'd rather the police fund drug dealer raids or pedo catching teams than a majority lost cause.

I'm not pragmatic, it's their fault the kid is missing and I have nil sympathy. If I give my kid a knife to play with and he stabs himself do you blame the knife manufacturer for making the knife, the person who sold me the knife or ME.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 13, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			1. I'm not saying there isn't active hunts, what I'm saying is that the amount of time, effort and money used to find one missing girl in a foreign country may better be used trying to find countless lost children at home. The mccanns have raised substantial funds and instead of building a lost children's foundation (maybe they have, I don't care to research the topic because they disgust me) and using those funds to help struggling families at home find their children. Similar to the families of children who are struck down by cancer or shot by a yobbo.
2. Brushing aside all the niceness around helping grieving people, facts be the facts, and following a "but for" test and you can not deny it. But for the actions of he mccanns to leave their child alone, in a room, out of sight of themselves and any care giver, their child would not be missing. Now, if they were in the room and they were attacked by some baby snatching lune trying to get their kid, that is different I would be supporting their cause.
3. What of it? I'd rather the police fund drug dealer raids or pedo catching teams than a majority lost cause.

I'm not pragmatic, it's their fault the kid is missing and I have nil sympathy. If I give my kid a knife to play with and he stabs himself do you blame the knife manufacturer for making the knife, the person who sold me the knife or ME.
		
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I agree they shouldn't have left the children & they have to take some of the blame. But we're talking about a little girl that didn't ask to be left alone & didn't want some sick individual to take her. 
While ever theirs a chance of finding her they should keep  the case open IMO.


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## Imurg (Oct 13, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			I agree they shouldn't have left the children & they have to take some of the blame. But we're talking about a little girl that didn't ask to be left alone & didn't want some sick individual to take her. 
While ever theirs a chance of finding her they should keep  the case open IMO.
		
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Is the correct answer...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you are wrong on all counts.  

1) I do not know numbers but I suspect that there are very few if any current missing young UK children for whom there is not an active 'hunt';
2) *Even consideration of apportioning blame to the parents is heartless and lacking in humanity*; to use that as a part-rationale for being 'fed-up' and that we shouldn't bother with the case any longer is frankly pretty disgraceful
3) By raising a 'value for public money' argument - well...

And after all - what does it matter to you...you have not lost your child - your arguments just reek of spitefulness I'm afraid - you won't like that being said but I am afraid it is true.  You may try and dress it up as being 'pragmatic' but I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me.  Happy to be shot down if others think I am way off beam.
		
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Well if it's not the parents' fault then do enlighten me as to who is to blame for this happening?  They abandoned the child to go out drinking.  I can't help but think that if this had been a single parent from a sink estate they would have been hung, drawn and quartered by the court of public opinion by now, yet in this instance people seem to be considering the parents as only partially to blame if not completely blameless, which I simply don't understand.


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## Kellfire (Oct 13, 2013)

I personally don't believe she was taken and I don't believe her parents left her alone.

I'll say no more, legal issues and all that.


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## ger147 (Oct 13, 2013)

The person(s) to blame is clearly the person(s) who abducted her. To use your own rationale from earlier, if the person(s) who took her didn't abduct children then she wouldn't be missing even though her parents left her in the apartment unattended.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 13, 2013)

Sorry but I agree with swingsitlikehogan, I don't think this is about one child. These people have taken others, if they break this ring they will find lots more. Stopping because you think it is one child is naive, or your hoping you got away with it. As for parents leaving their child alone, well you have 10 years to contemplate this unfortunately so have they. The abducters and users need to be found .. So all of the children are safe and we can have hope....


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## Kellfire (Oct 13, 2013)

The McCann's should have had their remaining children taken from their "care" when Madeleine went missing. Leaving children with such clearly neglecting parents is criminal its own right in my opinion.


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## virtuocity (Oct 13, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			The McCann's should have had their remaining children taken from their "care" when Madeleine went missing. Leaving children with such clearly neglecting parents is criminal its own right in my opinion.
		
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Define 'neglect' please.


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## Kellfire (Oct 13, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Define 'neglect' please.
		
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I don't see how anyone could claim it wasn't neglect. It's cut and dry in this case.


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## Val (Oct 13, 2013)

When girls like Jaycee Dugard can be found after years then there is always hope for Madeleine McCann, we shouldn't finger point now as we all did that years ago and the McCanns know in their heart of hearts what people think so let's hope a fresh case brings this little girl home to her parents.
.


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 13, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I personally don't believe she was taken and I don't believe her parents left her alone.

I'll say no more, legal issues and all that.
		
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I'm glad you said it and not me. I whole heartedly agree.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 13, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			I'm glad you said it and not me. I whole heartedly agree.
		
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Well you've got previous for heartless thoughts, and seeing everything measured  in pounds shillings and pence.

Should every tragedy be measured in how much it costs the public purse, or the perceived waste of public contributions?

The tsunami charitable funds - sod em, it was there choice to stay in japan? Any others on your "hit" list?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			I'm glad you said it and not me. I whole heartedly agree.
		
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Too many folks believe tripe the likes of the Daily Express have in the past printed on this.

What do you 'whole heartedly' agree upon?  Rumour?, innuendo? What - please tell me.  And what gives rise to these feelings of agreement?  Is it reason?  Is it logic? or is it a weird form of jealousy or indeed warped sense of getting a thrill from the story if the unthinkable might be true - or simply a wish for a thrill from what would be a sensational story.  This is real life - this is not a soap opera in which these things happen because in soap operas they do.  These are real people - they are not actors playing the parts of desperate and grieving parents - where we are viewers watching a cliff-hanger and fed up that the script writers aren't giving us the 'wow' ending that we expect quite quick enough.  A lot of public comment on the McCanns is frankly sick and purile - something that in my view is a direct product of unfortunately too many of us confusing soap plot lines and 'reality' TV with the real thing.

And so we have the horrible state of affairs in which we have many of the public watching and reading about the McCanns, wishing and desperate for the sensational ending for their own pathetic cheap thrill.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



_They abandoned the child to go out drinking._

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Cracking Red Top headline and a load of exaggerated tripe.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 13, 2013)

Ok ,clearly it's a very emotive subject and we all have our own thoughts and theories about what happened
Let's keep in mind that a little girl went missing, there is nothing to implicate the parents apart from an error of judgement, for which they must beat themselves up every single day.

She may just be alive somewhere , I suspect not, but hope is all they have.
It's clear that the local cops were incompetent ( no surprises there) , but they have had our cops on the case for the last few months and if there was anything to implicate the parents, it would have happened .

I just don't see how people can even suggest that the parents were part of it, it's simply absurd


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok ,clearly it's a very emotive subject and we all have our own thoughts and theories about what happened
Let's keep in mind that a little girl went missing, there is nothing to implicate the parents apart from an error of judgement, for which they must beat themselves up every single day.

She may just be alive somewhere , I suspect not, but hope is all they have.
It's clear that the local cops were incompetent ( no surprises there) , but they have had our cops on the case for the last few months and if there was anything to implicate the parents, it would have happened .

_*I just don't see how people can even suggest that the parents were part of it, it's simply absurd*_

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Absolutely Phil - and on _*this*_ they can and do because that's what would happen in the 'soaps', and it's what attention and readership seeking papers think you would want to read about.  The two being very closely connected.


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## Khamelion (Oct 13, 2013)

Regardless of what the media reported, the McCann's left their 4yr old daughter unsupervised while they went out for the night and regardless that they periodically went back to the appartment to check, the McCanns should have been charged with neglect. Period.

In the UK if you leave you child, a minor, without the appropriate supervisor and an accident occurs, it is neglect.

From various sources on the Internet:-


Child neglect is a deficit in meeting a child's basic needs.
Child neglect is a ongoing failure to provide the right care and attention to a child's need.

Do you think the McCanns were were providing the correct parental attention when she went missing, no they most certainly were not.

NO parent should have to go through what the McCanns have, I agree with that, but they brought that pain and suffering upon themselves through their own stupidity.


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## NWJocko (Oct 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cracking Red Top headline and a load of exaggerated tripe.
		
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Choice of words could have been better but why is this "tripe"? The parents have admitted to their misjudgement in leaving her alone but you seem to think they are blameless, unless I'm misinterpreting your posts?

FWIW I hope this attempt finds her. I know if it was one of my girls the government could never spend too much money looking for her......


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## Khamelion (Oct 14, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			.

I just don't see how people can even suggest that the parents were part of it, it's simply absurd
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely Phil - and on _*this*_ they can and do because that's what would happen in the 'soaps', and it's what attention and readership seeking papers think you would want to read about.  The two being very closely connected.
		
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Absurb it most certainly is not, the human mind can be driven to all kinds of evil, what about Mick and Mairead Philpott who's crackpot plan to frame the husband's estranged mistress for an arson, ended up in them killing 6 of their kids. So any suggestion that something altogether more sinister happened to Madelaine is not absurb at all.


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## Khamelion (Oct 14, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			FWIW I hope this attempt finds her. I know if it was one of my girls the government could never spend too much money looking for her......
		
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Here, Here, if it was my daughter I share you sentiment whole heartedly. The McCans were stupid to the Nth degree, but a good outcome would be for them to be reunited with their daughter, the parents do not deserve it, but Madelaine does.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 14, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			Absurb it most certainly is not, the human mind can be driven to all kinds of evil, what about Mick and Mairead Philpott who's crackpot plan to frame the husband's estranged mistress for an arson, ended up in them killing 6 of their kids. So any suggestion that something altogether more sinister happened to Madelaine is not absurb at all.
		
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Yes but even Mick Philpott didnt mean to kill his kids, he wanted to be the hero and save them and it all went wrong.
Dont get me wrong, Philpott is scum and deserves to be where he is. the McCanns cant be tarred with the same brush, yes they made a mistake, But did they arrange her disappearance??? I think not.  Thats the difference.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			Absurb it most certainly is not, the human mind can be driven to all kinds of evil, what about Mick and Mairead Philpott who's crackpot plan to frame the husband's estranged mistress for an arson, ended up in them killing 6 of their kids. *So any suggestion that something altogether more sinister happened to Madelaine is not absurb at all.*

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On what grounds can you suggest this other than that of the case not being solved.  I honestly believe that there are folks out there who actually want the 'answer' to be something more sinister - so they can say - 'ah - knew it all along'.  

Look - I will (shamefully) admit that on my first listenings of Gerry McCann being interviewed, my thoughts were 'smarmy posh Catholic boy' and on that basis alone my non-catholic west of Scotland mind jumped to a position of suspicion - a position that quite quickly on reflection I realised was disgraceful (and shameful) as it was purely one of very unfortunate prejudice on my part (those who know the WoS mentality will I hope understand and forgive).  And as soon as I realised that, I also knew how wrong I was to even contemplate taking such a view on the matter - a view wholly unjustified in having no basis or footing in reason or fact.

And so to today - so many years on - when the McCanns could have faded into the background and got on with life with their twins.  But no - they are determined to keep their loss high profile.  Of course the 'machiavellian' theorists would have me believe that - being smart cookies - the McCanns would do exactly this to make it seem even more unlikely that the most heinous of crimes could have been committed.  But hey - maybe they just desperately want to find their child and don't want us to forget she is missing - presumed alive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			...but they brought that pain and suffering upon themselves through their own stupidity.
		
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So very harsh - oh were we all so perfect as to be able to foresee the completely unforeseeable.


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So very harsh - oh were we all so perfect as to be able to foresee the completely unforeseeable.
		
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Is it not reasonable to foresee that leaving your child alone may cause some form of problem regardless of the enormity of the problem.

As mentioned, the parents should have been locked up and their remaining children's primary care provided by a family member, if I left my son at home alone and someone found out, I'm sure the local social worker would love to hear about it, or because I live in a nice area,does that get bypassed and it's all ok?

Again I reiterate, why all the fuss about this one girl, is she the messiah?

Maybe I do occasionally have polarized ideology, but sometimes fluffing something up in niceness doesn't cut it.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So very harsh - oh were we all so perfect as to be able to foresee the completely unforeseeable.
		
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End of the day you shouldn't leave kids unattended. It shouldn't even cross your mind. Like already said ,if it was a couple of Scratters off the Jeremy Kyle show that had done it they'd be hammered for it. It is neglect.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			Like already said ,if it was a couple of Scratters off the Jeremy Kyle show that had done it they'd be hammered for it.
		
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I think they are being hammered for it, both emotionally and certainly on this message board/forums, and I am sure a few others.  Which I am sure makes people feel better.


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## blackpuddinmonster (Oct 14, 2013)

There is no such thing as the perfect parent.
How many parents on here can honestly, hand on heart, say they have never done anything stupid whilst with their children ?
I know i can't. Driving at close to a 100mph on the motorway just so my little girl wouldn't be a few minutes late for a party is one thing that comes to mind. Stupid !
No, whats important here is little Maddie.
Personally i don't care how much time, or money is spent. If they find this little girl and return her to her rightfull place, with her parents, i for one will be delighted.
And so should everyone else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

blackpuddinmonster said:



			There is no such thing as the perfect parent.
How many parents on here can honestly, hand on heart, say they have never done anything stupid whilst with their children ?
I know i can't. Driving at close to a 100mph on the motorway just so my little girl wouldn't be a few minutes late for a party is one thing that comes to mind. Stupid !
No, whats important here is little Maddie.
Personally i don't care how much time, or money is spent. If they find this little girl and return her to her rightfull place, with her parents, i for one will be delighted.
And so should everyone else.
		
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Corect sir - and your driving with a young child in the back at 100mph or with with a drink in you?  None of us have ever done that have we.

And sorry - I disagree wirth the majority on the risk - I think it is completely reasonable for the McCanns to have assumed that their children would be safe in a holiday complex such as that in which they were in.  It would have been somewhat different had they been in - let's say - an rented apartment in the middle of an Algarve town - with no restrictions on public access - and they had headed off for a meal in a restaurant 5 mins walk away.  They didn't 'make a mistake' - as that implies they should or could have known better.  You only have to consider how many incidents of this nature have *ever* occurred to know the level of risk...to all intents and purposes the risk is nil.  And to suggest otehrwise is disingenuous.  Parents every day expose their children to much greater levels of risk.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

I have always suspected, and still do, that this was not an opportune moment as it was executed too cleanly leaving next to nothing to investigate, a well planned and thought-out abduction which for me says that the children had been left alone before and were observed for this crime to be carried out in the way it was. 

If that was not the case, then like in many situations, including many family murders, the guilty are always much closer to home and have a direct or indirect association or relationship with the family with the knowledge of their movements, we would all like to believe that is not the case but that is a statistical fact.

The McCanns being professional people should have known better and they put their children at risk by leaving them alone unsupervised, I am confident that it wasn't the first time they did that but, asking us (me) to believe that someone might know that they were alone in their room and not being checked-on and took a wild opportunity to abduct the little girl leaving not a single trace of evidence or sighting, sorry, not for me. 

It stunk at the beginning and still leaves a nasty smell now IMO


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## NWJocko (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Corect sir - and your driving with a young child in the back at 100mph or with with a drink in you?  None of us have ever done that have we.

And sorry - I disagree wirth the majority on the risk - I think it is completely reasonable for the McCanns to have assumed that their children would be safe in a holiday complex such as that in which they were in.  It would have been somewhat different had they been in - let's say - an rented apartment in the middle of an Algarve town - with no restrictions on public access - and they had headed off for a meal in a restaurant 5 mins walk away.  They didn't 'make a mistake' - as that implies they should or could have known better.  You only have to consider how many incidents of this nature have *ever* occurred to know the level of risk...to all intents and purposes the risk is nil.  And to suggest otehrwise is disingenuous.  Parents every day expose their children to much greater levels of risk.
		
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So, on one thread you're saying you've told your daughter to have lights on when driving in bright sunlight in case of "shadows from a hedge" and here you are advocating leaving a 4/5 year old in an apartment on her own while you go out for dinner!?


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2013)

Some very unforgiving replies here. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't leave my kids as they did, but it is wrong and unfair to call that neglect. And adding the word 'Period' after that comment doesn't increase the truth of it either, by the way.

It is very easy after the fact to condemn them. I am sure they have regretted what happened enough to make the thoughts of people on this site irrelevant. But they had what appeared to be a sensible mature kid. Is it OK to sit downstairs while the kids are in bed? Sure. Is it OK to sit on the patio outside while the kids are inside? Sure. So the McCanns didn't drive off into town leaving the kids. They sat at a restaurant less than 100 yards away which they chose to give line of sight to the house in what they thought was a secure resort in a safe area. One sand wedge shot away. 

If there was a predator tracking Maddy, he would have got her, and if he is tracking yours, he will get them too. The reality is that such an event is vanishingly rare, but it happened to them, so now everyone is an expert on child care. It could have happened, in one version or another, to any of us with kids. If you don't believe that, you are in denial.  

I hope little Maddy is alive and well, although I fear otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			So, on one thread you're saying you've told your daughter to have lights on when driving in bright sunlight in case of "shadows from a hedge" and here you are advocating leaving a 4/5 year old in an apartment on her own while you go out for dinner!? 

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I'm not advocating anything - I'm saying that to the McCanns the perceived level of risk would have been virtually nil - and so yes - in the same circumstances I might have done the same.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Some very unforgiving replies here. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't leave my kids as they did, but it is wrong and unfair to call that neglect. And adding the word 'Period' after that comment doesn't increase the truth of it either, by the way.

It is very easy after the fact to condemn them. I am sure they have regretted what happened enough to make the thoughts of people on this site irrelevant. But they had what appeared to be a sensible mature kid. Is it OK to sit downstairs while the kids are in bed? Sure. Is it OK to sit on the patio outside while the kids are inside? Sure. So the McCanns didn't drive off into town leaving the kids. They sat at a restaurant less than 100 yards away which they chose to give line of sight to the house in what they thought was a secure resort in a safe area. One sand wedge shot away. 

If there was a predator tracking Maddy, he would have got her, and if he is tracking yours, he will get them too. The reality is that such an event is vanishingly rare, but it happened to them, so now everyone is an expert on child care. It could have happened, in one version or another, to any of us with kids. If you don't believe that, you are in denial.  

I hope little Maddy is alive and well, although I fear otherwise.
		
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A reasonable and sensitive post Sir


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Some very unforgiving replies here. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't leave my kids as they did, but it is wrong and unfair to call that neglect. And adding the word 'Period' after that comment doesn't increase the truth of it either, by the way.

It is very easy after the fact to condemn them. I am sure they have regretted what happened enough to make the thoughts of people on this site irrelevant. But they had what appeared to be a sensible mature kid. Is it OK to sit downstairs while the kids are in bed? Sure. Is it OK to sit on the patio outside while the kids are inside? Sure. So the McCanns didn't drive off into town leaving the kids. They sat at a restaurant less than 100 yards away which they chose to give line of sight to the house in what they thought was a secure resort in a safe area. One sand wedge shot away. 

If there was a predator tracking Maddy, he would have got her, and if he is tracking yours, he will get them too. The reality is that such an event is vanishingly rare, but it happened to them, so now everyone is an expert on child care. It could have happened, in one version or another, to any of us with kids. If you don't believe that, you are in denial.  

I hope little Maddy is alive and well, although I fear otherwise.
		
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Excellent, reasoned post.

Are we as parents neglectful for letting our children walk to school or play out with firends?

As for taking their other child off them, or "nil sympathy..." There's more than one victim here - a little compassion wouldn't go amiss.


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## sawtooth (Oct 14, 2013)

We all hope that Maddie is found alive and well but leaving kids that age alone at home was plain reckless.

We wouldn't do that at home in our close whilst popping next door for a drink let alone abroad in a place full of strangers. I'm sorry but who would ever think that a resort like that was ever going to be secure? the risk was obviously there and they gambled.  

I feel sorry for them but nobody can deny that they were negligent, you cannot say it was responsible parenting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

sawtooth said:



			We all hope that Maddie is found alive and well but leaving kids that age alone at home was plain reckless.

We wouldn't do that at home in our close whilst popping next door for a drink let alone abroad in a place full of strangers. I'm sorry but who would ever think that a resort like that was ever going to be secure? the risk was obviously there and they gambled.  

I feel sorry for them but nobody can deny that they were negligent, you cannot say it was responsible parenting.
		
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In the context of where they were and what they were doing I do not believe they were really negligent. Negligence implies a serious level of positive carelessness -  and I don't think that was the case at all.


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the context of where they were and what they were doing I do not believe they were really negligent. Negligence implies a serious level of positive carelessness -  and I don't think that was the case at all.
		
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Whatever the words used to describe their actions, from my own perspective I cannot see any occasion whereby it would be acceptable to leave a 4 y.o alone for any amount of time, no matter what the circumstances.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the context of where they were and what they were doing I do not believe they were really negligent. Negligence implies a serious level of positive carelessness -  and I don't think that was the case at all.
		
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Whilst the law doesnâ€™t state an age when you can leave a child on their own, it is however an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.

It says that your are to use your judgement on how _mature_ your child is before you decide to leave them alone, so your saying that a 3yr old, in their judgement was acceptable!

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:

1/ Children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time, babies, toddlers and very young children should *never* be left alone.

I think a 3yr old firmly falls foul of this, don't you.

Your opinion is clearly noted but, you are excusing their actions, she was 3yrs old for gods sake.

Its neglect, and I'm being kind with that accusation.


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## bozza (Oct 14, 2013)

My gripe is that if this had been a family on benefits living in a council house and had popped to the local pub for a meal/drink they would be getting called every name under the sun and I bet they would have social services involved if they had other children. 

In my eyes it's blatent neglect on there part for leaving there children in a villa in a foreign country while they were out enjoying mya levels, you're children's safety/health should come first no matter what. 

Also something doesn't seem quite right with the whole  in me eyes, I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Pistol Peter (Oct 14, 2013)

Fish said:



			I have always suspected, and still do, that this was not an opportune moment as it was executed too cleanly leaving next to nothing to investigate, a well planned and thought-out abduction which for me says that the children had been left alone before and were observed for this crime to be carried out in the way it was. 

If that was not the case, then like in many situations, including many family murders, the guilty are always much closer to home and have a direct or indirect association or relationship with the family with the knowledge of their movements, we would all like to believe that is not the case but that is a statistical fact.

The McCanns being professional people should have known better and they put their children at risk by leaving them alone unsupervised, I am confident that it wasn't the first time they did that but, asking us (me) to believe that someone might know that they were alone in their room and not being checked-on and took a wild opportunity to abduct the little girl leaving not a single trace of evidence or sighting, sorry, not for me. 

It stunk at the beginning and still leaves a nasty smell now IMO
		
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I totally agree with your comments Mr Fish, there is far more than meets the eye to this and as much as it is sad that a child has been taken but I feel that the parents were in the wrong and should have punished by law. What would the law have done if it had happened in the UK, I am sure criminal charges would have been made against the parents.

I just hope the young girl is alive and well and who knows she might be getting looked after better by new parents.


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## Val (Oct 14, 2013)

Im not going to get overly drawn into this but have always had this thought.

If the parents were jobless layabouts from the rougher end of **insert big UK city** would they have been granted the same airtime or sympathy as the McCanns have had?


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Im not going to get overly drawn into this but have always had this thought.

If the parents were jobless layabouts from the rougher end of **insert big UK city** would they have been granted the same airtime or sympathy as the McCanns have had?
		
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Simple answer, no!

And if they still had other children at that time I would suspect the calls for them to be taken away from them would have been loud from all corners.

I've just read further into it and as per my previous post, they did indeed leave her/them every night at the same time for 6 nights previously as the table was block booked for the week and used every night by the group, including the McCanns.  As such I would be inclined to think that checking them would have got more spaced out each night as a comfort zone became apparent which clearly proves to me that they thought of only themselves first and not that of their children so they placed them at risk which is tantamount to neglect.


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## mikee247 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Some very unforgiving replies here. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't leave my kids as they did, but it is wrong and unfair to call that neglect. And adding the word 'Period' after that comment doesn't increase the truth of it either, by the way.

It is very easy after the fact to condemn them. I am sure they have regretted what happened enough to make the thoughts of people on this site irrelevant. But they had what appeared to be a sensible mature kid. Is it OK to sit downstairs while the kids are in bed? Sure. Is it OK to sit on the patio outside while the kids are inside? Sure. So the McCanns didn't drive off into town leaving the kids. They sat at a restaurant less than 100 yards away which they chose to give line of sight to the house in what they thought was a secure resort in a safe area. One sand wedge shot away. 

If there was a predator tracking Maddy, he would have got her, and if he is tracking yours, he will get them too. The reality is that such an event is vanishingly rare, but it happened to them, so now everyone is an expert on child care. It could have happened, in one version or another, to any of us with kids. If you don't believe that, you are in denial.  

I hope little Maddy is alive and well, although I fear otherwise.
		
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This is very well written and it demonstrates how you can be compassionate and considerate whilst also being factual about the situation at the same time. However, it is in my opinion that if you are intending to start a new investigation with a fresh team then from the outset all possibilities must be explored thoroughly. It is also my opinion that the investigators must have had a track record in similar cases to take reference from with a strong but neutral overview of the situation in order to conduct an investigation accurately and without bias.  You have to take the "emotional" out of this, no matter how hard it may be, in order to come to an conclusion and therefore you will have to expose the parents fully for their part in this dreadful chain of events. Emotional opinions being discussed previously and on places like here cannot offer any accuracy to a discussion or input to an investigation therefore are purely assumptive based on what people think happened. Fortunately factual evidence only can be used and although we can all offer our opinion of who we think is to blame or what actually happened, all potential options must be explored whether we think it soap opera or not. 

The fact that Maddie was left on her own and whether it be negligent or not, offers a major and fundamental part of the case that needs to be explored and is very relevant. I also think that the parents know this and will be prepared to take the potential flak that will come their way, from the minority as it inevitably will. This personal exposure gives me the confidence that they are telling the truth.

Being a father of 3 myself its very hard to do everything right....something goes wrong and god forbid you loose one you will always blame yourself no matter what. I honestly believe the parents of Maddie will never forgive themselves and they have been punished enough for what turned out to be a huge error in judgement. In terms of finding Maddie.,I fear the worst Im afraid


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2013)

mikee247 said:



			This is very well written and it demonstrates how you can be compassionate and considerate whilst also being factual about the situation at the same time. However, it is in my opinion that if you are intending to start a new investigation with a fresh team then from the outset all possibilities must be explored thoroughly. It is also my opinion that the investigators must have had a track record in similar cases to take reference from with a strong but neutral overview of the situation in order to conduct an investigation accurately and without bias.  You have to take the "emotional" out of this, no matter how hard it may be, in order to come to an conclusion and therefore you will have to expose the parents fully for their part in this dreadful chain of events. Emotional opinions being discussed previously and on places like here cannot offer any accuracy to a discussion or input to an investigation therefore are purely assumptive based on what people think happened. Fortunately factual evidence only can be used and although we can all offer our opinion of who we think is to blame or what actually happened, all potential options must be explored whether we think it soap opera or not. 

The fact that Maddie was left on her own and whether it be negligent or not, offers a major and fundamental part of the case that needs to be explored and is very relevant. I also think that the parents know this and will be prepared to take the potential flak that will come their way, from the minority as it inevitably will. This personal exposure gives me the confidence that they are telling the truth.

Being a father of 3 myself its very hard to do everything right....something goes wrong and god forbid you loose one you will always blame yourself no matter what. I honestly believe the parents of Maddie will never forgive themselves and they have been punished enough for what turned out to be a huge error in judgement. In terms of finding Maddie.,I fear the worst Im afraid 

Click to expand...

I agree that any new investigation must start at the beginning and take nothing as read.

However, it is also a principle of law that anyone is innocent until proven guilty, so people on an internet forum who know nothing other than what they have read on Wikipedia or in a redtop and who feel some kind of reverse snobbery because these are two doctors, indulging in innuendo and 'it looks funny to me' armchair detectiving is also wrong.


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I agree that any new investigation must start at the beginning and take nothing as read.

However, it is also a principle of law that anyone is innocent until proven guilty, so people on an internet forum who know nothing other than what they have read on Wikipedia or in a redtop and who feel some kind of reverse snobbery because these are two doctors, indulging in innuendo and 'it looks funny to me' armchair detectiving is also wrong.
		
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These type of crimes are never opportunistic.


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## ger147 (Oct 14, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			These type of crimes are never opportunistic.
		
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Never is a very long time...


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

ger147 said:



			Never is a very long time...
		
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Yes and bears crap in the woods.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I agree that any new investigation must start at the beginning and take nothing as read.

However, it is also a principle of law that anyone is innocent until proven guilty, so people on an internet forum who know nothing other than what they have read on Wikipedia or in a redtop and who feel some kind of reverse snobbery because these are two doctors, indulging in innuendo and 'it looks funny to me' armchair detectiving is also wrong.
		
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No its not, its sharing an opinion of which some will agree and some will not, that is called debating and what a forum encourages, or should we all be only saying what others want to hear and wrap it up in cotton wool, what a sterile world that would be. 

The bottom line is they left a 3yr old whilst they went out, not once, but many times during the week, the distance is immaterial IMO and as such leaving their children more than once increased the risk every night they did so, good parenting skills, I think not!


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## ger147 (Oct 14, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			Yes and bears crap in the woods.
		
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No trees in the Arctic.


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## mikee247 (Oct 14, 2013)

Fish said:



			No its not, its sharing an opinion of which some will agree and some will not, that is called debating and what a forum encourages, or should we all be only saying what others want to hear and wrap it up in cotton wool, what a sterile world that would be. 

The bottom line is they left a 3yr old whilst they went out, not once, but many times during the week, the distance is immaterial IMO and as such leaving their children more than once increased the risk every night they did so, good parenting skills, I think not!
		
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I havnt seen anyone condoning the fact they were at fault here and I'm damn sure they regret it but I'm not overly sure how you expect them to be punished more than they have been already? Obviously if its proven they are innocent of any further involvement in this case they will always have to live with the fact they made a bad decision leaving Maddie on her own.  Buy Ethan's quote on distance is very relevant. Im sure you cant spend every minute of the day and night with you children within arms reach...Some people will have houses and annexes etc where they are indeed a long way from there children at night. Of course out drinking every night is a different argument entirely.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 14, 2013)

Geez I am a bad parent, my 11 month old son is asleep in his cot and I am in another room with the monitor on. The only consolation I have is he knows me and sees me every day and has time with me and not some stranger called a nanny. I love all the quality judgements being made on here, its so easy to critise others but have you looked at your parenting? Did you know the biggest regret of the terminally ill is that spent too much time working and not with their family? Next time you slip off to the golf course and leave your family behind just because you need your golf hit think about the comments you have made on here about the parenting skills of others... Yes you have just thrown stones in a glass house. 


It is the easy option to blame others than to get down and find the solution ... So people move on. This is why british industry is generally rubbish this critism led society that is propagated by lazy journalism is the reason. It seems that no one can just say yep that's wrong, lets sort it out and find the answer...


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 14, 2013)

This is a twee thing that is posted up on facebook everyday. I'm sure like me, that lots of these things applied to you in your childhood. Does that mean that my parents didn't care for me - did it buggery:- CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL BORN IN 1930's, 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's and Early 80's !!! First, you survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they ...carried us. They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a tin, and didn't get tested for diabetes. Then after that trauma, your baby cots were covered with bright colored lead-based paints. You had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when you rode your bikes, you had no helmets, not to mention, the risks you took hitchhiking .. As children, you would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.Riding in the back of a van - loose - was always great fun. You drank water from the garden hosepipe and NOT from a bottle. You shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this. You ate cakes, white bread and real butter and drank pop with sugar in it, but you weren't overweight because...... YOU WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!! You would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. No one was able to reach you all day. And you were OK. You would spend hours building your go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out you forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, you learned to solve the problem . You did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no mobile phones, no text messaging, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms..........YOU HAD FRIENDS and you went outside and found them! You fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents you played with worms(well most boys did) and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever. You made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although you were told it would happen, you did not poke out any eyes. You rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just yelled for them! Local teams had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!! The idea of a parent bailing you out if you broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law! This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever! The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. You had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and you learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL! And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS! You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.               END. No matter the facts (not just innuendo), these people still deserve our sympathy. I'm sure they beat themselves up about it everyday. Let them without sin, cast the first stone.


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			Geez I am a bad parent, my 11 month old son is asleep in his cot and I am in another room with the monitor on. The only consolation I have is he knows me and sees me every day and has time with me and not some stranger called a nanny. I love all the quality judgements being made on here, its so easy to critise others but have you looked at your parenting? Did you know the biggest regret of the terminally ill is that spent too much time working and not with their family? Next time you slip off to the golf course and leave your family behind just because you need your golf hit think about the comments you have made on here about the parenting skills of others... Yes you have just thrown stones in a glass house. 


It is the easy option to blame others than to get down and find the solution ... So people move on. This is why british industry is generally rubbish this critism led society that is propagated by lazy journalism is the reason. It seems that no one can just say yep that's wrong, lets sort it out and find the answer...
		
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I don't leave my children home alone while I play golf. Not really the same now is it.


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			This is a twee thing that is posted up on facebook everyday. I'm sure like me, that lots of these things applied to you in your childhood. Does that mean that my parents didn't care for me - did it buggery:- CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL BORN IN 1930's, 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's and Early 80's !!! First, you survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they ...carried us. They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a tin, and didn't get tested for diabetes. Then after that trauma, your baby cots were covered with bright colored lead-based paints. You had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when you rode your bikes, you had no helmets, not to mention, the risks you took hitchhiking .. As children, you would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.Riding in the back of a van - loose - was always great fun. You drank water from the garden hosepipe and NOT from a bottle. You shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this. You ate cakes, white bread and real butter and drank pop with sugar in it, but you weren't overweight because...... YOU WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!! You would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. No one was able to reach you all day. And you were OK. You would spend hours building your go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out you forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, you learned to solve the problem . You did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no mobile phones, no text messaging, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms..........YOU HAD FRIENDS and you went outside and found them! You fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents you played with worms(well most boys did) and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever. You made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although you were told it would happen, you did not poke out any eyes. You rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just yelled for them! Local teams had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!! The idea of a parent bailing you out if you broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law! This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever! The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. You had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and you learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL! And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS! You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.               END. No matter the facts (not just innuendo), these people still deserve our sympathy. I'm sure they beat themselves up about it everyday. Let them without sin, cast the first stone.
		
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My mother didnt drink or smoke while pregnant with any of her 4 children. I actively encourage my kids to get outside and play.  As for the rest? your free to let your kids go int he car without seatbelts etc if you think that's OK.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 14, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			Geez I am a bad parent, my 11 month old son is asleep in his cot and I am in another room with the monitor on. The only consolation I have is he knows me and sees me every day and has time with me and not some stranger called a nanny. I love all the quality judgements being made on here, its so easy to critise others but have you looked at your parenting? Did you know the biggest regret of the terminally ill is that spent too much time working and not with their family? Next time you slip off to the golf course and leave your family behind just because you need your golf hit think about the comments you have made on here about the parenting skills of others... Yes you have just thrown stones in a glass house. 


It is the easy option to blame others than to get down and find the solution ... So people move on. This is why british industry is generally rubbish this critism led society that is propagated by lazy journalism is the reason. It seems that no one can just say yep that's wrong, lets sort it out and find the answer...
		
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What a load of tripe!!
No ones claiming to be Mary Poppins. But they left  their children alone. Maybe you don't think that's too bad but I certainly do.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 14, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			What a load of tripe!!
No ones claiming to be Mary Poppins. But they left  their children alone. Maybe you don't think that's too bad but I certainly do.
		
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why is it tripe to point out your all acting like your the best parents ? When frankly there is no rule book and stuff goes wrong ... Yet your mainly are not interested in finding the truth out here, your happy to jump to conclusions and seek to critise the parents. 
All this thread has done is slag off the parents based on tabloid facts... Few have stepped up and said this isn't about one child this about all children and those that prey on them.
were you aware that there are some predators that will even take you out as a parent to get the child? So what can you do ? 
You can support the police in finding these people out and bringing them to justice or to an environment where they can be controlled. 

And to reply to paddy ... It's about spending time with your family not whether you dump them on somebody else to look after, crikey o Reilly you did the Tango that made them, going to work and bringing the money in, is gentleman a small part. Teaching them manners, appreciation of others, support and development are the major parts. Or you could just have them and ignore them and then critise another couple for being bad parents because they were taken advantage of.... 

By the way would you let Marry Poppins look after your kids....


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			why is it tripe to point out your all acting like your the best parents ? When frankly there is no rule book and stuff goes wrong ... Yet your mainly are not interested in finding the truth out here, your happy to jump to conclusions and seek to critise the parents. 
All this thread has done is slag off the parents based on tabloid facts... Few have stepped up and said this isn't about one child this about all children and those that prey on them.
were you aware that there are some predators that will even take you out as a parent to get the child? So what can you do ? 
You can support the police in finding these people out and bringing them to justice or to an environment where they can be controlled. 

And to reply to paddy ... It's about spending time with your family not whether you dump them on somebody else to look after, crikey o Reilly you did the Tango that made them, going to work and bringing the money in, is gentleman a small part. Teaching them manners, appreciation of others, support and development are the major parts. Or you could just have them and ignore them and then critise another couple for being bad parents because they were taken advantage of.... 

By the way would you let Marry Poppins look after your kids....
		
Click to expand...

For this to have happened, which it did, you first have to create the opportunity, they (the McCanns) did this by leaving a 3yr old nightly whilst they systematically had a meal and drinks with friends, as such this was not a one-off grab opportunity which due to a single lapse moment "things go wrong" which would have led to a trial of evidence, this was neglect and as such it was observed, well planned and executed or we'd be closer to a conclusion that what we are.

What is also worrying is, their is a substantial life changing reward on offer, this can tempt the most tightest of circles and usually someone breaks ranks, but nothing!


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 14, 2013)

harpo_72 said:



			why is it tripe to point out your all acting like your the best parents ? When frankly there is no rule book and stuff goes wrong ... Yet your mainly are not interested in finding the truth out here, your happy to jump to conclusions and seek to critise the parents. 
All this thread has done is slag off the parents based on tabloid facts... Few have stepped up and said this isn't about one child this about all children and those that prey on them.
were you aware that there are some predators that will even take you out as a parent to get the child? So what can you do ? 
You can support the police in finding these people out and bringing them to justice or to an environment where they can be controlled. 

And to reply to paddy ... It's about spending time with your family not whether you dump them on somebody else to look after, crikey o Reilly you did the Tango that made them, going to work and bringing the money in, is gentleman a small part. Teaching them manners, appreciation of others, support and development are the major parts. Or you could just have them and ignore them and then critise another couple for being bad parents because they were taken advantage of.... 

By the way would you let Marry Poppins look after your kids....
		
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One fact I do know is they left the kids alone. I'm not claiming to be the perfect parent but I know for sure I'd never leave my child alone. 
And yes I'd leave my child with Mary Poppins as I don't see a problem with children sweeping chimneys & so on:ears:


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

Fish said:



			For this to have happened, which it did, you first have to create the opportunity, they (the McCanns) did this by leaving a 3yr old nightly whilst they systematically had a meal and drinks with friends, as such this was not a one-off grab opportunity which due to a single lapse moment "things go wrong" which would have led to a trial of evidence, this was neglect and as such it was observed, well planned and executed or we'd be closer to a conclusion that what we are.

What is also worrying is, their is a substantial life changing reward on offer, this can tempt the most tightest of circles and usually someone breaks ranks, but nothing!
		
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Exactly, these type of crimes are never random acts of a bogeyman who was passing by.


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## bozza (Oct 14, 2013)

Just watching on the news about this man they now want to speak to and have released a e-fit but they won't say why this has become significant until more will be revealed in the programme tonight. 

Why wait till tonight when the programme is aired to say why this person is so significant in the search, surely the sooner they can track this person down the better!


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## drawboy (Oct 14, 2013)

They ONLY have themselves to blame, they should be in prison in my honest opinion. We are not talking about white trash chavs on benefits here that know no better, they were highly educated doctors who know that leaving a 3 year old by itself in a strange place is WRONG. Everything that poor child has been subjected to is totally and without defense down to their stupidity. I cannot stand to see their winging faces on the TV with their "please help us find our beloved baby" act. The child didn't ask for or deserve what has happened to her....they most certainly do.


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## Mungoscorner (Oct 14, 2013)

drawboy said:



			They ONLY have themselves to blame, they should be in prison in my honest opinion. We are not talking about white trash chavs on benefits here that know no better, they were highly educated doctors who know that leaving a 3 year old by itself in a strange place is WRONG. Everything that poor child has been subjected to is totally and without defense down to their stupidity. I cannot stand to see their winging faces on the TV with their "please help us find our beloved baby" act. The child didn't ask for or deserve what has happened to her....they most certainly do.
		
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Absolutely spot on.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 14, 2013)

Whilst they're not the ones who committed a crime as such I do find it difficult to feel positive towards them as a couple. They don't seem to accept they were irresponsible at best in leaving young children unattended whilst they went out and enjoyed themselves. I've not seen all the interviews with them but haven't ever seen them accept any wrong doing and say "we messed up big time and have to live with that but please help us find our daughter" etc etc...

I do admire how they have kept this going but agree they are "fortunate" enough to be in a position to do so.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 14, 2013)

drawboy said:



			They ONLY have themselves to blame, they should be in prison in my honest opinion. We are not talking about white trash chavs on benefits here that know no better, they were highly educated doctors who know that leaving a 3 year old by itself in a strange place is WRONG. Everything that poor child has been subjected to is totally and without defense down to their stupidity. I cannot stand to see their winging faces on the TV with their "please help us find our beloved baby" act. The child didn't ask for or deserve what has happened to her....they most certainly do.
		
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Crikey .. there is so much wrong with the way you put this across it probably hide's the good points you make ...


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## CMAC (Oct 14, 2013)

Havent read all the threads, I get the gist from some and I'm quite ashamed at some of the replies.....


Irrespective of whoever is to blame there is a lonely terrified wee girl out there in the clutches of evil, we should do everything within our power to find her and punish those responsible, regardless of cost. I pray to God she is found safe and well.


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## bluewolf (Oct 14, 2013)

This is quite easily one of the most disturbing threads I've been unfortunate to read on this, or any other forum. Compassion and understanding appears to be a 4 letter word. I'm sure they regret their complacency every minute of every day. I'm sure that they imagine daily what could have/be happening to that poor little girl. I can only imagine the horror of their daily lives. I sincerely hope that the little girl is found, one way or another. After all, that's the important thing...


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## In_The_Rough (Oct 14, 2013)

Been away for a while due to college work etc but catching up with what has been going down. As Bluewolf says a disturbing thread. Some of the comments on here are beyond belief. Yes the McCanns made mistakes but no child disappearance case should be left IMO and am fully behind the investigation. I hope she is found alive but I suspect otherwise but if they can get some closure then so be it. I think something has developed recently, there is definitely more to this case than meets the eye though and somebody somewhere knows what has happened to Maddie


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## bladeplayer (Oct 14, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			Havent read all the threads, I get the gist from some and I'm quite ashamed at some of the replies.....


Irrespective of whoever is to blame there is a lonely terrified wee girl out there in the clutches of evil, we should do everything within our power to find her and punish those responsible, regardless of cost. I pray to God she is found safe and well.
		
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bluewolf said:



			This is quite easily one of the most disturbing threads I've been unfortunate to read on this, or any other forum. Compassion and understanding appears to be a 4 letter word. ...
		
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Thanks guys i thought it was just me


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## ADB (Oct 14, 2013)

I simply cannot fathom the attitudes of some on here who have puffed out their chests taking the moral high ground. Prison for the parents.......bread and water for them as well no doubt...and how about a few lashes with the cat o nine tails while we are at it. I think the fact they are doctors and are intelligent has been manna from heaven for the bitter and jealous who didn't concentrate at school and have relished the fact they messed up, which they admitted from Day1.

I can't imagine what they have gone through and just hope that there can be closure on this terrible situation soon.


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## PieMan (Oct 14, 2013)

As a parent myself to two young children, I cannot begin to understand the hurt and pain they have had to cope with since that poor girl was abducted. A truly awful and tragic event, like all of those that - unfortunately - have happened to young children over the years.

However like others on here, part of me can never completely feel 100% sympathy for them as they not only left a 3 year old alone, but 2 even younger children as well. I personally just cannot understand why anyone would do that. And unfortunately I would expect that 'why' is something the McCann's will be unable to justify for the rest of their lives.


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			This is quite easily one of the most disturbing threads I've been unfortunate to read on this, or any other forum. Compassion and understanding appears to be a 4 letter word. I'm sure they regret their complacency every minute of every day. I'm sure that they imagine daily what could have/be happening to that poor little girl. I can only imagine the horror of their daily lives. I sincerely hope that the little girl is found, one way or another. After all, that's the important thing...
		
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Totally agree.

There is an element of blame, and no doubt they've crucified themselves and each other for years, and possibly years to come.

But to reiterate the question I posed earlier... when can we leave our children alone? Is it when they walk to school at 12, or play in the street at 6? There's many a child gone missing who has been a lot older. Do we 'police' them when they're 15? Bearing mind that a 14 year old can go missing, are we just as neglectful as the McCann's for letting our (older) children go off on their own?

I, too, wouldn't leave a 3yr old home alone. But that's more from what they might do to themselves. I would expect that the front door being locked would ensure enough of a deterent to the opportunists. 

The taking of Maddy was obviously premeditated, and it could have been, probably, any number of children targeted in that resort. So were the McCann's naÃ¯ve or neglectful?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

drawboy said:



			They ONLY have themselves to blame, they should be in prison in my honest opinion. We are not talking about white trash chavs on benefits here that know no better, they were highly educated doctors who know that leaving a 3 year old by itself in a strange place is WRONG. Everything that poor child has been subjected to is totally and without defense down to their stupidity. I cannot stand to see their winging faces on the TV with their "please help us find our beloved baby" act. The child didn't ask for or deserve what has happened to her....they most certainly do.
		
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Complete clap-trap - in prison for what?


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## richart (Oct 14, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			This is quite easily one of the most disturbing threads I've been unfortunate to read on this, or any other forum. Compassion and understanding appears to be a 4 letter word. I'm sure they regret their complacency every minute of every day. I'm sure that they imagine daily what could have/be happening to that poor little girl. I can only imagine the horror of their daily lives. I sincerely hope that the little girl is found, one way or another. After all, that's the important thing...
		
Click to expand...

 Well said that man.


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## sawtooth (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Complete clap-trap - in prison for what?
		
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For not upholding their duty of care?


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 14, 2013)

Think the question needs to be asked as to whether they acted as a reasonable parent would?

Also someone mentioned earlier that they had a block booking all week at the same restaurant, possibly at the same time. Someone could easily have seen the booking and watched their actions.

Think they have been fortunate to ensure there is so much interest for so long for such a tragic case.

Unfortunately hindsight is such a wonderful thing and it must be on their conscience forever.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

sawtooth said:



			For not upholding their duty of care? 

Click to expand...

You get jail for sitting 50yds from your children these days do you?


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You get jail for sitting 50yds from your children these days do you?
		
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They obviously couldn't see them could they? or it wouldn't have happened, your hanging on to this point for what reason?

They left a 3yr old not once but several times in the week and that CHILD was the oldest in the room, if they could see the room or children why check on them? Their was obviously other accesses to the room which they couldn't see for it to have happened!!

The references and guidances from the NSPCC I made earlier are clear at that age, DO NOT LEAVE, EVER.


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm worried just how this thread is going. We all have opinions but just sometimes they don't make good reading.


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## User20205 (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I'm worried just how this thread is going. We all have opinions but just sometimes they don't make good reading.
		
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Yep. Sometimes it seems like some take delight in the misfortune of others. I'm sure the parents regret their actions every waking second. 

The events that led up to the abduction seem secondary to getting some kind of closure. Are some seriously suggesting the mcanns don't deserve to find out what happened?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Fish said:



			They obviously couldn't see them could they? or it wouldn't have happened, your hanging on to this point for what reason?

They left a 3yr old not once but several times in the week and that CHILD was the oldest in the room, if they could see the room or children why check on them? Their was obviously other accesses to the room which they couldn't see for it to have happened!!

The references and guidances from the NSPCC I made earlier are clear at that age, DO NOT LEAVE, EVER.
		
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Well I read that they had line of sight to the door they left open.  And of course the NSPCC are going to recommend that.  But they did not abandon their children and go for a night out on town - which I suspect is more what NSPCC are getting at.  I sit at the bottom of my garden.  I am sitting 50yds from my open back door. My children are asleep in bed - have I abandoned them?  Am I being negligent?  Jail for me then if anything were to have happened? Really?  No - quite!


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You get jail for sitting 50yds from your children these days do you?
		
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So...that's a dodgy 50 yards there.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I read that they had line of sight to the door they left open.  And of course the NSPCC are going to recommend that.  But they did not abandon their children and go for a night out on town - which I suspect is more what NSPCC are getting at.  I sit at the bottom of my garden.  I am sitting 50yds from my open back door. My children are asleep in bed - have I abandoned them?  Am I being negligent?  Jail for me then if anything were to have happened? Really?  No - quite!
		
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That's slightly different, unless you have two walls and a swimming pool between you and your child. Even if they saw someone in the doorway waving their child screaming look at me, i'm taking your child. By the time they'd got to the room, that person would be nowhere to be seen. Lets say the person can get 100yards in the 3-5mins it would take to get to the room, that's 7853 square yards to search, if they manage to get another 1000 yards that's 950331 square yards.

SO on that basis, is it still reasonable to leave a child in a room out of sight or even with sight unless you are Asafa Powell and can cover the 100 yards in 9.0 secs? Baring in mind you are not asafa powell, it is not a straight dash and you're half pissed on sangria and wearing footwear not fit for running.



therod said:



			I'm not sure what point you're making. The discussion should about 'should the case be reopened', not what led up to the abduction. That's old news. 

I was under the impression you thought a more sinister reason applied anyway,

Click to expand...

Aliens or not...you shouldn't leave your kid alone. If you did that in a hotel room, or in an undisclosed location.


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## User20205 (Oct 14, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:









So...that's a dodgy 50 yards there.
		
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I'm not sure what point you're making. The discussion should about 'should the case be reopened', not what led up to the abduction. That's old news. 

I was under the impression you thought a more sinister reason applied anyway,


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## bozza (Oct 14, 2013)

To the parents on here, if you left your children with a childminder and they got abducted/snatched while the childminder was at a friends over the road having a cup of tea and chat, should the childminder face action for not doing their job ?


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I'm worried just how this thread is going. We all have opinions but just sometimes they don't make good reading.
		
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To be honest it was always going to be a contentious subject.
I think its quite interesting the difference in opinion of the punishment they should receive.
Im sure if they had nothing sinister to do with her disapearence,the punishment and pain
of not having her around every day is bad enough.
To be honest people are having there opinion on something where they havnt got all the facts.
In fact new things about that night are still coming out,and im sure all the real facts wont be found
out at all.
Myself I am in the camp of they should never have left them alone,they are responsible for Madelines disapearence.
Every time I see Kates face on tv[obviously still hurting] I think you fool.
Hopefully tonights episode will give us more.
But imo nothings going to be new apart from this photofit,however I think they are clutching
at straws.
Hope im wrong and Madeline is alive,however it doesn't look good.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I read that they had line of sight to the door they left open.
		
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Obviously not or it wouldn't happened and they would have seen someone not only entering but exiting also, with Maddie!

For me they are accountable for leaving 3 children, not just Maddie, but 3 children with Maddie being the eldest at only 3yrs old whilst they not only once, but on several nights prior went to the restaurant with their group of friends and as such they would not be staring and concentrating at what you believe to be a clear sight of the door, but what was immediately happening around them in the restaurant.   

Naive would be acceptable if it was a single occasion and a she was abducted more by chance, this is not the case, this is neglect as they (the McCanns) movements were obviously observed, patterns taken into account and then a thoughtful abduction took place, that could only happen because the parents put Maddie and the other children, which they left, in that situation and as such IMHO, they should be made accountable, Maddie is the victim, not the McCanns IMO. 

Maddie if she is indeed alive and recovered will never be the same little girl again and that is wholly down to the parents not protecting her.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			To be honest it was always going to be a contentious subject.
I think its quite interesting the difference in opinion of the punishment they should receive.
Im sure if they had nothing sinister to do with her disapearence,the punishment and pain
of not having her around every day is bad enough.
To be honest people are having there opinion on something where they havnt got all the facts.
In fact new things about that night are still coming out,and im sure all the real facts wont be found
out at all.
Myself I am in the camp of they should never have left them alone,they are responsible for Madelines disapearence.
Every time I see Kates face on tv[obviously still hurting] I think you fool.
Hopefully tonights episode will give us more.
But imo nothings going to be new apart from this photofit,however I think they are clutching
at straws.
Hope im wrong and Madeline is alive,however it doesn't look good.
		
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I've read of new evidence and someone being "introduced" to her on an Island this summer, arrests and investigations are moving on that but because the statement is being treated as "credible" by the police, they don't want to say too much at this time.


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2013)

What annoys me about this is how a significant number of people are heaping ALL the blame on the Parents.
Yes, they were wrong to leave the kids.
Yes, they should have known better.

The "crime" they have commited is relatively minor compared to the perpetrator of the real crime.

Yes, if they hadn't left her in the apartment she wouldn't have been there to be taken. Does that mean whoever took her is innocent..?

And anyone - anyone - who says they've never left their kids anywhere for any length of time or put there kids in any sort of danger - ever - try being honest with yourselves for a change.

People make mistakes every day, some bigger than others. I just hope that all those who never make mistakes don't, one day, make one that costs you as much as this.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

Fish said:



			I've read of new evidence and someone being "introduced" to her on an Island this summer, arrests and investigations are moving on that but because the statement is being treated as "credible" by the police, they don't want to say too much at this time.
		
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I hope your right


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			What annoys me about this is how a significant number of people are heaping ALL the blame on the Parents.
Yes, they were wrong to leave the kids.
Yes, they should have known better.

The "crime" they have commited is relatively minor compared to the perpetrator of the real crime.

Yes, if they hadn't left her in the apartment she wouldn't have been there to be taken. Does that mean whoever took her is innocent..?

And anyone - anyone - who says they've never left their kids anywhere for any length of time or put there kids in any sort of danger - ever - try being honest with yourselves for a change.

People make mistakes every day, some bigger than others. I just hope that all those who never make mistakes don't, one day, make one that costs you as much as this.
		
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There is a huge difference in someone making a singular mistake or mistakes over separate periods of time, this was not the case and was also not in a familiar environment.  They systematically left them which allowed these perpetrators to take advantage of their neglect.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			What annoys me about this is how a significant number of people are heaping ALL the blame on the Parents.
Yes, they were wrong to leave the kids.
Yes, they should have known better.

The "crime" they have commited is relatively minor compared to the perpetrator of the real crime.

Yes, if they hadn't left her in the apartment she wouldn't have been there to be taken. Does that mean whoever took her is innocent..?

And anyone - anyone - who says they've never left their kids anywhere for any length of time or put there kids in any sort of danger - ever - try being honest with yourselves for a change.

People make mistakes every day, some bigger than others. I just hope that all those who never make mistakes don't, one day, make one that costs you as much as this.
		
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Leaving your 3 young children alone is not a mistake,its stupidity of the highest order.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			What annoys me about this is how a significant number of people are heaping ALL the blame on the Parents.
Yes, they were wrong to leave the kids.
Yes, they should have known better.

The "crime" they have commited is relatively minor compared to the perpetrator of the real crime.

Yes, if they hadn't left her in the apartment she wouldn't have been there to be taken. Does that mean whoever took her is innocent..?

And anyone - anyone - who says they've never left their kids anywhere for any length of time or put there kids in any sort of danger - ever - try being honest with yourselves for a change.

People make mistakes every day, some bigger than others. I just hope that all those who never make mistakes don't, one day, make one that costs you as much as this.
		
Click to expand...


If you left 100k on a bus and someone pinched it.
Whos fault would you say it was.
Just because someone stole it doesn't mean its right,but giving someone the opportunity
to take it is your fault.


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2013)

Do you think they don't know they made probably the biggest mistake of their lives?
Do you think they don't beat themselves up about it every single day?

It was a mistake. At the time they thought it would be ok. It wasn't but it was still a mistake.
I sincerely hope that nobody I know makes a mistake that leads to similar consequences. 
It really doesn't take much to step up from tiny error to catestrophic decision.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Do you think they don't know they made probably the biggest mistake of their lives?
Do you think they don't beat themselves up about it every single day?

It was a mistake. At the time they thought it would be ok. It wasn't but it was still a mistake.
I sincerely hope that nobody I know makes a mistake that leads to similar consequences. 
It really doesn't take much to step up from tiny error to catestrophic decision.
		
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That is true,and I think in my first post I mentioned this.


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Do you think they don't know they made probably the biggest mistake of their lives?
Do you think they don't beat themselves up about it every single day?

It was a mistake. At the time they thought it would be ok. It wasn't but it was still a mistake.
I sincerely hope that nobody I know makes a mistake that leads to similar consequences. 
It really doesn't take much to step up from tiny error to catestrophic decision.
		
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So if I fell asleep in bed whilst smoking (pre-law changes) and my house caught fire and my children died as a consequence but I survived, would I be charged with anything?

If they were left in their room whilst I popped to the corner shop (50yds away for SILH) and found some of my medicine that I left out and they drank it and poisoned themselves and died, would I be looking at charges.

I'm sure the cries for retribution would be loud and clear in those circumstances and to be honest, I see no difference.  Why should they (the McCanns) be self diagnosed that they are being punished enough when through their selfishness on not one but a run of nights, they left their children unprotected and vulnerable.


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## Khamelion (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Do you think they don't know they made probably the biggest mistake of their lives?
Do you think they don't beat themselves up about it every single day?

It was a mistake. At the time they thought it would be ok. It wasn't but it was still a mistake.
I sincerely hope that nobody I know makes a mistake that leads to similar consequences. 
It really doesn't take much to step up from tiny error to catestrophic decision.
		
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It wasn't a mistake, it was plain crass stupidity, a distinct lack of any kind of common sense, idiocy of the highest order, but yes, there is no shadow of a doubt that they regret it and have done every day since, but that is the penance they have to pay.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful
		
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I think its being debated fine, I believe the parents are culpable and some don't, some are excusing their actions and giving reasons why and some are saying there is no reason to leave such young toddlers alone. It will be a sensitive subject as anything involving children will be but, why should the victim in this be the only victim, other than the pain the McCanns are feeling, I think they should be charged in some way for neglect as it wasn't an isolated occasion of leaving them.


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## JustOne (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful
		
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I don't agree... it's just a discussion. No one is quite at the 'fisty-cuffs' stage just yet. Too many threads get locked already when people are quite simply trying to debate stuff. Opinion is the whole point of the forum.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful
		
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Why?
New evidence is coming out tonight so we could no more.


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## mikee247 (Oct 14, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			If you left 100k on a bus and someone pinched it.
Whos fault would you say it was.
Just because someone stole it doesn't mean its right,but giving someone the opportunity
to take it is your fault.
		
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I dont think that is a comparison of any accuracy you can use to a situation like this.....but I get the point of it. I am in the camp that they made a huge error in judgement but clearly they will pay for for all time. We all make mistakes there is no way in my opinion that these people can pay for it any more they have already and suffered for it like you cant believe.  Regardless if you see it as neglect, which I can see your point, it is a simple mistake that has become a catastrophe.  If it is proven she was taken by by someone else then that is the real crime here and that alone must be solved. The parents have spent heir lives trying to find her and put things right (or so we are led to believe) and being a father myself of young kids I can only dare to imagine the pain they are going through... and for 6 years! I dont wish that on my worst enemy let alone misguided parents.

I will watch tonight's program and hope Im comfortable in my current opinion but we must keep an open mind with this new investigation and hope it is done properly. Is it time to support them not blame them perhaps, thats been done to death. Lets find her or at the very least close the file with a tangible truth filled conclusion?


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful
		
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Personally if I find a post I don't want to get involved in I wont read it.


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			Personally if I find a post I don't want to get involved in I wont read it.
		
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Ask Mike Harris what the GM view of threads that people might find offensive - I did and he explained in detail


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Ask Mike Harris what the GM view of threads that people might find offensive - I did and he explained in detail
		
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There's nothing to offend anyone on this thread that wouldn't involve someone actively looking to be offended.


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## Mattyboy (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't think any of us should judge them. 

If you have a God, please pray for Maddie..........


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## User20205 (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			There's nothing to offend anyone on this thread that wouldn't involve someone actively looking to be offended.
		
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Not offensive just distasteful. I'm not sure what the point of discussing the parents guilt or otherwise is 7 years after the event. 

And to somehow accuse them of a more serious crime, as has been done in this thread, is pathetic.

The only important issue, is the new evidence, if any. Then you can all have your go at playing tin pot perry mason!


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

therod said:



			Not offensive just distasteful. I'm not sure what the point of discussing the parents guilt or otherwise is 7 years after the event. 

And to somehow accuse them of a more serious crime, as has been done in this thread, is pathetic.

The only important issue, is the new evidence, if any. Then you can all have your go at playing tin pot perry mason!
		
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Pretty much sums it up for me. I realise that I don't have to read the thread but how can I have an opinion if I don't?


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Pretty much sums it up for me. I realise that I don't have to read the thread but how can I have an opinion if I don't?
		
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Rock and a hard place


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## bozza (Oct 14, 2013)

I can't see why the post is distasteful or would offend anyone, the exact same debate will be going on in workplaces, pubs and households all over the country with people having different opinions on it so for me there is no reason why this thread should be locked.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 14, 2013)

bozza said:



			I can't see why the post is distasteful or would offend anyone, the exact same debate will be going on in workplaces, pubs and households all over the country with people having different opinions on it so for me there is no reason why this thread should be locked.
		
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I'm inclined to agree. Sure some of the comments made me wince a bit but people feel strongly about an emotive case that has been in the headlines for 7 years. The couple have been very public in that time and therefore (varied) opinion on them has grown and also opinion on the events of the kidnapping...

Time will tell but I can't see why this thread should be locked due to differing opinions.


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## guest100718 (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I've never said this before but I do hope this topic is locked very soon, I personally find it quite distasteful
		
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Why? People are just giving different views on subject which was and is again high up thew news agenda. I find posts asking for threads to be locked more baffling than any of the other stuff thats been said


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			Why? People are just giving different views on subject which was and is again high up thew news agenda. I find posts asking for threads to be locked more baffling than any of the other stuff thats been said
		
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Everyone has a different level at which they find discussion distasteful. This is pretty well there for me but I understand it may be way short for some. I am not a mod and I'm sure they will step in when they feel its appropriate.


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## JustOne (Oct 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Everyone has a different level at which they find discussion distasteful. This is pretty well there for me but I understand it may be way short for some. I am not a mod and I'm sure they will step in when they feel its appropriate.
		
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You don't like the thread yet you still keep coming back to read it/reply to it ........ bad day?


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

As one of those who is extremely judgmental over the McCanns' actions and also someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence in the larger scheme of things let me just clarify a few things that are being taken way out of context by some.

1. I do NOT want something dark and horrible to have happened to Madeleine McCann just so I can say, "I told you so". That's a repugnant thing to suggest and those who have insinuated that about myself and others should think about what they're saying.

2. I don't claim to have any more knowledge than anyone else beyond gut feeling and by expressing those feelings it doesn't make me some sinister character who is looking for the worst in any situation. I would love to proved wrong and for Madeleine to turn up safe and sound tomorrow.

3. I just cannot buy into the fact that they feel guilty every day of their lives and this is some sort of "punishment enough" for their neglect. Many murderers regret their crime from the second they carried it out. Same with rapists, burglars and every crime under the sun. This doesn't change anything about the fact that a crime was committed and they should be punished. I feel very strongly that what the McCanns did that night went as far as criminal neglect and at the very least their remaining children should have been removed from their "care". They had already massively failed one child, no matter the scope of their involvement, and for their own sake the remaining children should have been taken into alternative care. The fact that the world's eyes were now firmly focused on the McCanns (thus probably meaning they wouldn't dare repeat their behaviour) is irrelevant.


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			As one of those who is extremely judgmental over the McCanns' actions and also someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence in the larger scheme of things let me just clarify a few things that are being taken way out of context by some.

1. I do NOT want something dark and horrible to have happened to Madeleine McCann just so I can say, "I told you so". That's a repugnant thing to suggest and those who have insinuated that about myself and others should think about what they're saying.

2. I don't claim to have any more knowledge than anyone else beyond gut feeling and by expressing those feelings it doesn't make me some sinister character who is looking for the worst in any situation. I would love to proved wrong and for Madeleine to turn up safe and sound tomorrow.

3. I just cannot buy into the fact that they feel guilty every day of their lives and this is some sort of "punishment enough" for their neglect. Many murderers regret their crime from the second they carried it out. Same with rapists, burglars and every crime under the sun. This doesn't change anything about the fact that a crime was committed and they should be punished. I feel very strongly that what the McCanns did that night went as far as criminal neglect and at the very least their remaining children should have been removed from their "care". They had already massively failed one child, no matter the scope of their involvement, and for their own sake the remaining children should have been taken into alternative care. The fact that the world's eyes were now firmly focused on the McCanns (thus probably meaning they wouldn't dare repeat their behaviour) is irrelevant.
		
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I think that last paragraph is bordering on the slanderous, accusing the McCanns of criminal neglect, which they have never been charged with such an offence, and saying that they are incapable of looking after their other children. Your first paragraph also insinuates that you think they are implicated 'someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence'. That is dangerous territory. If you know something, tell the police. If you don't, keep your amateur sleuthing to yourself.


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## User20205 (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			also someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence in the larger scheme of things .
		
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Just so you aren't misunderstood, what do you mean by this?


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You don't like the thread yet you still keep coming back to read it/reply to it ........ bad day? 

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Not a bad day James, no. A bad thread, yes. I said earlier that I don't think that not reading the thread is the answer. As Ethan says, there is potentially some pretty slanderous stuff being spouted.


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I think that last paragraph is bordering on the slanderous, accusing the McCanns of criminal neglect, which they have never been charged with such an offence, and saying that they are incapable of looking after their other children. Your first paragraph also insinuates that you think they are implicated 'someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence'. That is dangerous territory. If you know something, tell the police. If you don't, keep your amateur sleuthing to yourself.
		
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I've made no criminal allegations, I've said that my opinion is that something they are known to have done is more serious than they have been judged to have been by the relevant authorities. Despite the way you seem to want me to be doing something wrong, I'm not. I'm perfectly within my rights to say what I have here.

When you see any televised criminal case and the accused is found innocent you regularly see the victims or the victim's family state outright that the decision is wrong. Does anything happen to these people such as cases of slander taken against them?

No. For obvious reason. So stop trying to paint me as the bad guy here, which you're obviously trying to do for no other reason than I have a different opinion to you.

As for this dangerous territory you speak of, you're being ridiculous. Again I've made no allegation of anything and gone so far as to say anything I do think beyond that which is known is gut instinct.

Why do we live in such ridiculous times when people think any discussion of a serious nature is litigious?


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

therod said:



			Just so you aren't misunderstood, what do you mean by this?
		
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It is obvious what I mean by this but I have explained that it is nothing more than a gut feeling and I would never accuse them of anything I didn't have evidence for, which is nothing.

At the same time I think any reinvestigation should look into their actions in the lead up to Madeleine going missing and the aftermath.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2013)

Note to self. Add threads on Madeline McCann to those about Scottish Independence, Scottish or English football, young people looking for jobs, Andy Murray and TaylorMade as ones not to bother reading on this Forum as it only brings out the worst in people.


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## In_The_Rough (Oct 14, 2013)

Just watched the Crimewatch programme and have to say there is something that is still not quite right for me just a gut feeling nothing more, these burglary's that were taking place for example and these sightings of a man wandering around with a child in his arms at various times of the night, lots of very strange happenings. Think the only thing that can be said is that the Portugal police made a real mess of the investigation


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## pokerjoke (Oct 14, 2013)

Seeing that beautiful girl again tonight made me sad,i have a girl the same age.
After seeing the programme I cant really see any change.
Yes a possible sighting,yes a removal of the possibility that someone was carrying Madeline close
to her apartment.
But nothing concrete,an efit yes but only really for elimination.
Maybe im wrong,i hope so.
Im off to give my daughter a cuddle.


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Think the only thing that can be said is that the Portugal police made a real mess of the investigation
		
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I think everyone can agree with that, no matter what else you think.


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Think the only thing that can be said is that the Portugal police made a real mess of the investigation
		
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Kellfire said:



			I think everyone can agree with that, no matter what else you think.
		
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And that is most definitely beyond all reasonable doubt!:cheers:


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## richart (Oct 14, 2013)

I could only watch so much, as I find what happen gut wrenching. Can not imagine what the parents have gone through, and as for the little girl I try not to think about it.


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			As one of those who is extremely judgmental over the McCanns' actions and also someone who isn't entirely convinced of their innocence in the larger scheme of things let me just clarify a few things that are being taken way out of context by some.
		
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If they had something to hide do you really think they would have mounted the campaign they have? Do you really think they would have pushed and pushed for continued police involvement and investigations?

And if you do believe they have, watch out for the bogey man under the bed...

BOO!! It's behind you!!


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## Khamelion (Oct 14, 2013)

I just think that no matter how secure the families thought the appartment complex, they still chose to leave their children alone and unattended albeit for half hourly checks.

That to me is just plain unforgiveable.


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## JustOne (Oct 14, 2013)

richart said:



			I could only watch so much, as I find what happen gut wrenching. Can not imagine what the parents have gone through, and as for the little girl I try not to think about it.
		
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I didn't watch it at all for the same reason.

If I see a 10yr old girl with a 'drippy eye' I know who to phone.


I would search to the ends of the earth for one of my own, I feel the pain of all involved. Finger pointing can come later in my book.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 14, 2013)

Seem to be a lot of heartless people on the forum. Must be nice to never make a mistake or an error of judgement.... Or to be lucky enough to get away with it when you do.

I have nothing but sympathy for the McCanns.


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## Kellfire (Oct 14, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			If they had something to hide do you really think they would have mounted the campaign they have? Do you really think they would have pushed and pushed for continued police involvement and investigations?
		
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Gut feeling, that's all I've said. I'll admit that the evidence is against me.

What the evidence does show is a clear case of neglect; that's beyond doubt. A shame so many people allow their sympathy towards the McCanns for their loss to cloud their judgement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			What annoys me about this is how a significant number of people are heaping ALL the blame on the Parents.
Yes, they were wrong to leave the kids.
Yes, they should have known better.

The "crime" they have commited is relatively minor compared to the perpetrator of the real crime.

Yes, if they hadn't left her in the apartment she wouldn't have been there to be taken. Does that mean whoever took her is innocent..?

And anyone - anyone - who says they've never left their kids anywhere for any length of time or put there kids in any sort of danger - ever - try being honest with yourselves for a change.

People make mistakes every day, some bigger than others. I just hope that all those who never make mistakes don't, one day, make one that costs you as much as this.
		
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And what 'crime' have they committed - for me - driving with a child as a passenger at 90mph or after having a couple of pints is much more negligent than anything the McCanns did as those actions by parents expose the child to a much greater level risk of injury or death.


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## chrisd (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Gut feeling, that's all I've said. I'll admit that the evidence is against me.

What the evidence does show is a clear case of neglect; that's beyond doubt. A shame so many people allow their sympathy towards the McCanns for their loss to cloud their judgement.
		
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I don't agree, sorry. The sympathy I have for the McCanns is that as a result of not thinking about the implications of their actions that their beloved daughter has quite probably been murdered. In cases where young children have been abducted and murdered it is the abductors fault, not that of the parent, even if their judgement is impaired as to the care quality towards their child.


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			A shame so many people allow their sympathy towards the McCanns for their loss to cloud their judgement.
		
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Or maybe they just apply a different judgement. It could be as simple as that.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Gut feeling, that's all I've said. I'll admit that the evidence is against me.

What the evidence does show is a clear case of neglect; that's beyond doubt. A shame so many people allow their sympathy towards the McCanns for their loss to cloud their judgement.
		
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You must take great comfort from your position in the moral high ground.   A shame you allow your cynicism and high standards to  cloud your judgement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Note to self. Add threads on Madeline McCann to those about Scottish Independence, Scottish or English football, young people looking for jobs, Andy Murray and TaylorMade as ones not to bother reading on this Forum as it only brings out the worst in people.

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Though HK - this one I hope also brings out and shows the humanity, reasonableness and fair-mindedness of some people.


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## bozza (Oct 14, 2013)

Like I said earlier, if you as a parent left your child with a childminder and something happens to them due to the childminder neglecting to do their job correct because they were across the road having a coffee and a natter I bet you would want  some sort of action taking against them? 

So why  should it be different if you are the parent of the child?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2013)

There seem to be two camps...

1) Prejudice and conjecture
2) Humanity and known facts

I know which camp I'm glad that I'm in


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## ADB (Oct 14, 2013)

bozza said:



			Like I said earlier, if you as a parent left your child with a childminder and something happens to them due to the childminder neglecting to do their job correct because they were across the road having a coffee and a natter I bet you would want  some sort of action taking against them? 

So why  should it be different if you are the parent of the child?
		
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I wouldn't be pointing fingers and looking for retribution - I would be doing everything in my power to find out what happened to my child, which is exactly what the McCanns are doing.


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## Robobum (Oct 14, 2013)

Do I think it's acceptable for me to be in a bar opposite my house whilst my 4yr old is asleep in bed?

What if she was sick in her bed? A fairly common occurrence. Would it be right of me to leave her with sick all over herself for 1/2 hr until it came to "check up time"

What if she just had a bad dream? Would it be ok to leave her sobbing her little heart out for 30mins until check up time?

No one deserves the outcome that has cursed these poor people. Making a considered decision to leave a 4yr old child alone is not acceptable in my view.


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## Khamelion (Oct 14, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Seem to be a lot of heartless people on the forum. Must be nice to never make a mistake or an error of judgement.... Or to be lucky enough to get away with it when you do.

I have nothing but sympathy for the McCanns.
		
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I readily admit I have made mistakes in the few years I have been on this planet, but at the very least when my daughter was the same age I had the good common sense never to leave her alone unattended. A mistake is putting sugar in someones coffee who doesn't take sugar, and error in judgement is thinking you could jump the red lights and get away with it, what the the McCanns did is neither, it was a conscious decision to leave their child unsupervised. Can anyone on this forum condone that action?



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There seem to be two camps...

1) Prejudice and conjecture
2) Humanity and known facts

I know which camp I'm glad that I'm in
		
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What predujice and conjecture is there in the events as shown on Crimewatch this evening, as written above the McCans made a conscious decision to leave their child unsupervised, that is not conjecture, that is fact.

I sincerely hope that Madelaine is well, in good health and will one day be reunited with her parents, but I'm not arguing that. All along I have written that the McCanns made a the wrong choice, showed a distinct lack of common sense and that their actions were tantamount to neglect. What they did was shameful and as a parent I cannot fathom why they did what they did.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 14, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Thanks guys i thought it was just me
		
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+1 on that.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 14, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Gut feeling, that's all I've said. I'll admit that the evidence is against me.

What the evidence does show is a clear case of neglect; that's beyond doubt. A shame so many people allow their sympathy towards the McCanns for their loss to cloud their judgement.
		
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Maybe because most peoples initial thought would be a degree of sympathy, but then there is always some contrary pub bore, that feels that they know more.

So what is this gut feeling, you skirt around the issue a lot, but what is it, Columbo?


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## richart (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't think anyone is condoning what the parents did, but do they deserve what then happened, and more importantly did their little girl ? If you can get beyond how she was snatched, this is a heart breaking case, and the people that took her should be brought to justice. There should be no place on earth for them to hide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			What predujice and conjecture is there in the events as shown on Crimewatch this evening, as written above the McCans made a conscious decision to leave their child unsupervised, that is not conjecture, that is fact.
		
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Don't know abut events shown on Crimewatch tonight as I was out - but in general...

Prejudice - having already decided that the McCanns are - as a minimum - guilty of negligence, a guilt compounded by their general demeanor throughout.

Conjecture - reaching conclusions on *what might have happened *involving the McCanns, rather than basing any view - or indeed judgement (as many seem to jump to) on known facts and balanced view on probability/likelihood of events and subsequent events.

So yes - Prejudice and Conjecture


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I've made no criminal allegations, I've said that my opinion is that something they are known to have done is more serious than they have been judged to have been by the relevant authorities. Despite the way you seem to want me to be doing something wrong, I'm not. I'm perfectly within my rights to say what I have here.

When you see any televised criminal case and the accused is found innocent you regularly see the victims or the victim's family state outright that the decision is wrong. Does anything happen to these people such as cases of slander taken against them?

No. For obvious reason. So stop trying to paint me as the bad guy here, which you're obviously trying to do for no other reason than I have a different opinion to you.

As for this dangerous territory you speak of, you're being ridiculous. Again I've made no allegation of anything and gone so far as to say anything I do think beyond that which is known is gut instinct.

Why do we live in such ridiculous times when people think any discussion of a serious nature is litigious?
		
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I am afraid you do not understand the charge of slander. You do not have to allege a criminal offence, nor is slander a criminal offence - it is a civil one in which you simply have to say something which could cause reputational damage. Internet debate has been determined to be slander rather than libel. Hinting at something more than meets the eye (or whatever it was you said) could suggest you think the McCanns had a direct hand in the disappearance, for example, and you could be asked to explain exactly what you suspected and what evidence you had for that opinion. Good luck with the defence of gut instinct. You might be better saying a leprechaun appeared to you in a dream. At least a defence of insanity might play. 

Complaining about a court verdict is entirely different because the fact there was a cause brought in the first place is evidence that there were adequate grounds to believe the accused was guilty and a conviction might occur. Losing the case does not negate those grounds. And people are not found innocent, they are found not guilty which is not the same thing at all. 

Also, saying the McCanns are now unfit to look after their two other kids is not a huge stretch at reputational damage either. 

I am not trying to paint you as the bad guy. You are doing it all by yourself. You really should stop.


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## JustOne (Oct 15, 2013)

Reputational damage?... ooooooooohhh

I've been slandered too many times on this forum - watch out from now on you lot!!!


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

richart said:



			I don't think anyone is condoning what the parents did, but do they deserve what then happened, and more importantly did their little girl ? If you can get beyond how she was snatched, this is a heart breaking case, and the people that took her should be brought to justice. There should be no place on earth for them to hide.
		
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Sums it up well for me Rich.

 All of the people at dinner that night had sleeping children it appeared and they all made that (quite wrong) call that it was ok to check them every half hour. I also recall the distance being quoted as 50m and not the 500m said, I believe, on here. I would be willing to bet that many on here have slipped round to next door for supper when kids have gone to bed and popped back to check them frequently, never had a problem and never considered it wrong. 

If you havnt ever done that, consider for a moment the day you decide that your child is old enough to walk to school alone, will it be your fault that some deranged person just happens to choose that day to snatch a child? You will always feel guilty but was it your fault or the abductors?


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Sums it up well for me Rich.

 All of the people at dinner that night had sleeping children it appeared and they all made that (quite wrong) call that it was ok to check them every half hour. I also recall the distance being quoted as 50m and not the 500m said, I believe, on here. I would be willing to bet that many on here have slipped round to next door for supper when kids have gone to bed and popped back to check them frequently, never had a problem and never considered it wrong. 

If you havnt ever done that, consider for a moment the day you decide that your child is old enough to walk to school alone, will it be your fault that some deranged person just happens to choose that day to snatch a child? You will always feel guilty but was it your fault or the abductors?
		
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Seriously I wouldn't dream of leaving my child in the house alone,,he'd be distraught if he woke up & me or is mum weren't there. 
As for letting him walk to school alone,definitely not at 3 years old with 2 younger children.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Sums it up well for me Rich.

 All of the people at dinner that night had sleeping children it appeared and they all made that (quite wrong) call that it was ok to check them every half hour. I also recall the distance being quoted as 50m and not the 500m said, I believe, on here. I would be willing to bet that many on here have slipped round to next door for supper when kids have gone to bed and popped back to check them frequently, never had a problem and never considered it wrong. 

If you havnt ever done that, consider for a moment the day you decide that your child is old enough to walk to school alone, will it be your fault that some deranged person just happens to choose that day to snatch a child? You will always feel guilty but was it your fault or the abductors?
		
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For someone who found this thread distasteful you certainly have a lot to say.
I thought you wanted the thread closed.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Reputational damage?... ooooooooohhh

I've been slandered too many times on this forum - watch out from now on you lot!!!   

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Don't worry. Saying someone doesn't understand the new ball flight rules or has a nasty reverse pivot is unlikely to be considered defamatory.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			For someone who found this thread distasteful you certainly have a lot to say.
I thought you wanted the thread closed.
		
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I do find a lot of it distasteful but have said on it a couple of times that the suggestion that I shouldn't continue to read or post on it quite wrong.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			As for letting him walk to school alone,definitely not at 3 years old with 2 younger children.
		
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I carefully didn't mention an age in relation to this.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

A lot of different opinions on this subject,but sure every one would love to see Madeline found safe. 
Obviously the parents made a shocking decision to leave their children alone & they have to live with that.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I carefully didn't mention an age in relation to this.
		
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No but there comes a time in your child's life when you let them do things on their own. Staying alone at 3 isn't one of them.


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## DappaDonDave (Oct 15, 2013)

Ironic to see the guy carrying his child has been given the all clear because he was carrying her from a NIGHT CRÃˆCHE about 300m away from the Mccanns apartment.

It's a compounded lack of judgement and sense which caused this. And multiple nights out on the sauce.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			Ironic to see the guy carrying his child has been given the all clear because he was carrying her from a NIGHT CRÃˆCHE about 300m away from the Mccanns apartment.

It's a compounded lack of judgement and sense which caused this. And multiple nights out on the sauce.
		
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Very good point


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

What slightly confuses me is people like the guy who has just been given the all clear, why hadn't he come forward earlier? I am in no way saying he had anything to do with it, but if I was in a resort at the same time, and had wandered around in the evening with my blond 3 year old child in my arms, I would have come straight forward and said that is what I was doing, I was here, here and here, so you can disregard those spottings.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

This is always going to be a very emotive subject with lots of treding on egg shells so I will try and say this without being distasteful 

The main thing for me is young Maddie is missing because her parents didn't just make a mistake they made a momumental poor error in judgement that I believe can't be excused. I'm sorry but you don't leave three young kids with oldest being 2 alone every night whilst you go and have a meal in a rest yearn with your friends. That's in my humble opinion beyond a mistake - that is very poor parenting to the point of neglect. If that was a young "benefit" family then child services would have been on the case and an investigation would have occured in my opinion with possible criminal charges being applied. It's not a nice thing to think that way but I'm just being honest with myself here - no way in a million years would I leave my kids of that age alone in a foreign country in an apt whilst I go of and have dinner. Young Maddie was abducted because the parents werent there to protect her. 

Another thing that troubles me is Kate McCann herself - there is something about her I don't trust , her body language and mannerisms just don't seem right. There is a list of 40 odd questions that she refused to answer to the police about that night which she even acknowledged would have harmed the search. At the moment I put it down to shock of the incident 

The next thing is the search and media highlight - absolutely no problems with that because it might help find the real victim in this - young Maddie. I do hope hand in heart they find her and return her home. She doesn't deserve want happened.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			No but there comes a time in your child's life when you let them do things on their own. Staying alone at 3 isn't one of them.
		
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I totally agree, but my point was, if on the first day that you feel its ok to let your child walk to school on his/her own and he/she is abducted by some predator then will you blame yourself or the abductor.

 I totally disagree with anyone leaving 3 young children in an apartment unsupervised, I never did it when my son was young and hope that my son wouldn't leave his young children either. Having learned in the very harshest of ways I am sure that the McCanns wouldn't do it again either!


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## guest100718 (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I totally agree, but my point was, if on the first day that you feel its ok to let your child walk to school on his/her own and he/she is abducted by some predator then will you blame yourself or the abductor.

 I totally disagree with anyone leaving 3 young children in an apartment unsupervised, I never did it when my son was young and hope that my son wouldn't leave his young children either. Having learned in the very harshest of ways I am sure that the McCanns wouldn't do it again either!
		
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I  think the point some are trying to make is that its there is no child snatcher grabbing random kids off the street, but by going out every evening and leaving their 3 children alone unsupervised, they unintentionally allowed who ever did this to plan and execute this terrible crime.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			I  think the point some are trying to make is that its there is no child snatcher grabbing random kids off the street, but by going out every evening and leaving their 3 children alone unsupervised, they unintentionally allowed who ever did this to plan and execute this terrible crime.
		
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Absolutely correct.

 My, and others, point is though, that as stupid as it was to do so, it was, as you say unintentional that the consequence of their action led to such a disastrous result and they will pay the price for their stupidity for ever. Some postings here give me the impression that the McCanns are to be considered at fault for what happened on a scale equal to that of the abductor. I am absolutely, in no way condoning the McCanns and their friends leaving their children as they did- in fact quite the opposite.


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## bozza (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Absolutely correct.

 My, and others, point is though, that as stupid as it was to do so, it was, as you say unintentional that the consequence of their action led to such a disastrous result and they will pay the price for their stupidity for ever. Some postings here give me the impression that the McCanns are to be considered at fault for what happened on a scale equal to that of the abductor. I am absolutely, in no way condoning the McCanns and their friends leaving their children as they did- in fact quite the opposite.
		
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Not on a scale to the person that allegedly snatched her but if you were a teacher/child minder and you left a child/children this young alone while you were having a meal/drink etc, you would face some sort of criminal action for neglecting to do your job. 

It's your job as a parent to keep your children safe/healthy and leaving them alone in a foreign country at night on more than one occasion is neglect in my eyes. 

Yes they have suffered and it's a heartbreaking story and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but in the cold
Light if day they have neglected to provide adequate care for their children and left them
In a dangerous situation on numerous occasions.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Nobody disagrees that if they had still been in the apartment, this tragedy would almost certainly not have happened. The debate is about whether leaving them in the apartment to go to the tapas bar was willfully negligent or something a bit stupid that has a massively disproportionate outcome. I think it is hard to comment on that without the benefit of hindsight. The Maddy McCann case is now a teaching case on not doing this, but can we honestly say that the vociferousness of the condemnations would have been just as strong before the case?


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## Khamelion (Oct 15, 2013)

DappaDonDave said:



			Ironic to see the guy carrying his child has been given the all clear because he was carrying her from a NIGHT CRÃˆCHE about 300m away from the Mccanns apartment.

It's a compounded lack of judgement and sense which caused this. And multiple nights out on the sauce.
		
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Exactly, with the alleged implications being the family with the appartment furthest away being targetted. As the DCI on Crimewatch said, they now think this was an organised event in which several days reconnaissance took place. 

The circumstances in which Madelaine was taken are sad and could have been avoided had the parents executed better judgement and common sense. They were unfortunate that their appartment was on the end of the block, had it been in the middle we could well have been discussing a different families missing child.


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## Robobum (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			.........but can we honestly say that the vociferousness of the condemnations would have been just as strong before the case?
		
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Absolutely 100%.

Going for Tapas and Pinot Grigio does not make it more acceptable than going for Kestrel and a joint. The latter would be condemned without hesitation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Yes they would have been as strong - most defiantly. Leaving kids that young alone in a holiday apt isn't just a simple mistake ( one they seemed to do every single night ) - it's beyond poor lack of judgement. No one leaves kids that young alone for more than a minute unsupervised , I will never comprehend why they did it


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Absolutely 100%.

Going for Tapas and Pinot Grigio does not make it more acceptable than going for Kestrel and a joint. The latter would be condemned without hesitation.
		
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I think you misunderstand. Before the Maddy case had happened, would the terms of this debate be so strongly expressed. Nowt to do whether they were going for Bollinger or Buckfast.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes they would have been as strong - most defiantly. Leaving kids that young alone in a holiday apt isn't just a simple mistake ( one they seemed to do every single night ) - it's beyond poor lack of judgement. *No one leaves kids that young alone for more than a minute unsupervised* , I will never comprehend why they did it
		
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Sure they do. At 2 or 3, the kids are usually in different rooms from their parents, often on different floors and occasionally a single parent will put the bins out while the kids are in bed. 

Is it OK to walk to the garden gate? 

5 feet outside? 

Where is the acceptable limit, exactly?


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## Khamelion (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Nobody disagrees that if they had still been in the apartment, this tragedy would almost certainly not have happened. The debate is about whether leaving them in the apartment to go to the tapas bar was willfully negligent or something a bit stupid that has a massively disproportionate outcome. I think it is hard to comment on that without the benefit of hindsight. *The Maddy McCann case is now a teaching case on not doing this, but can we honestly say that the vociferousness of the condemnations would have been just as strong before the case?*

Click to expand...

The one thing above all others that this case has highlighted is that the McCanns thought it okay to leave their very young children unattended while they ate out with friends ( who had done the same in leaving their children alone) some distance away and without a direct line of sight to them.

This is not a teaching case, don't know how you can say that, I do not need to be taught not to leave my children alone, I didn't when my daughter was a baby and toddler and would certainly not need to be taught that now.

It is just plain good common sense that you *do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point*, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.


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## Robobum (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I think you misunderstand. Before the Maddy case had happened, would the terms of this debate be so strongly expressed. Nowt to do whether they were going for Bollinger or Buckfast.
		
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Still 100%.

Now Bolli & Buckie would be an interesting cocktail!!!


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			The one thing above all others that this case has highlighted is that the McCanns thought it okay to leave their very young children unattended while they ate out with friends ( who had done the same in leaving their children alone) some distance away and without a direct line of sight to them.

*This is not a teaching case, don't know how you can say that*, I do not need to be taught not to leave my children alone, I didn't when my daughter was a baby and toddler and would certainly not need to be taught that now.

It is just plain good common sense that you *do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point*, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.
		
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I can say that because it is perfectly obvious that people have pause now when in any situation where their kids are not in their eyeline, especially on holiday. Whilst you may well, or may think that, you would never have let them out of your sight for a second, the fact is that prior to Maddy, many people might not have been as sensitized to this risk as they are now. Therefore this case has had a teaching effect. It is also rather difficult to keep 3 or 4 year olds in your sight all the time even when out. I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads. 

But don't misunderstand. I think it was a very bad idea to leave Maddy and the other kids, would not have done so myself, and I am certain the McCanns have torn themselves up about it, but I think the power of hindsight has coloured the certitude of those who swear they would never ever have let their kids out of their sight for a second.


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## guest100718 (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I can say that because it is perfectly obvious that people have pause now when in any situation where their kids are not in their eyeline, especially on holiday. Whilst you may well, or may think that, you would never have let them out of your sight for a second, the fact is that prior to Maddy, many people might not have been as sensitized to this risk as they are now. Therefore this case has had a teaching effect. It is also rather difficult to keep 3 or 4 year olds in your sight all the time even when out. I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads. 

But don't misunderstand. I think it was a very bad idea to leave Maddy and the other kids, would not have done so myself, and I am certain the McCanns have torn themselves up about it, but I think the power of hindsight has coloured the certitude of those who swear they would never ever have let their kids out of their sight for a second.
		
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Sorry, its not about letting kids out of your site for a second. Kids move fast and are often out of site, that doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to keep my eyes on them. What the Mcanns did was knowingly leave THREE children ages 3 and below on their own while they went out for a meal and a drink with friends, not just once but several times. 
That is wrong, so very very wrong.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			As the DCI on Crimewatch said, they now think this was an organised event in which several days reconnaissance took place.
		
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Which is what I said in my first post on here, due to their repetition of going to the Tapas over several nights at the same time they allowed an opportunity to exist, not a single opportune moment and a misguided wrong singular judgement on their (McCanns) part, they put their children at risk for their own _repetitive_ enjoyment.  

Every interview I have seen and I hear of questions being refused to be answered, to what gain god only knows when your daughter is missing, I believe in my personal opinion that they (McCanns) feel they have done nothing wrong and were unlucky!  I'm sorry but I disagree with that strongly, it wasn't unlucky, they assisted and helped those guilty of this by their own irresponsible actions, no different to leaving your keys in your car or your window of the house open but on a totally different and catastrophic scale.

I also find it hard to believe that they checked as regular as they claim, yes on the first night, and then possibly on the 2nd night, but, as the nights rolled on (6 I believe but happy to be corrected) I would think its human nature for those gaps to get longer and it has always been my opinion that their is still something that the McCanns are not telling us, and if that is so, then they are not helping the hunt and enquiry as time frames will be completely irrelevant!    

It is not uncommon for people (parents) to get caught up in the public outrage and sympathy when something like this happens when children go missing or are murdered, something suddenly transpires from it all and instead of correcting it or admitting to something to dismiss it, they roll with it and start to believe it themselves and become embroiled within it all, I hope for Maddies sake this is not the case with the McCanns or we are looking up blind alleys. 

I have served many years in reconnaissance, looking into environments along with people that just don't seem right and are out of place, I have done this in civilian environments for HMF as well as full-on under extreme active service situations and their is something I believe we are still not being told by the McCanns, their body language and demeanour just doesn't sit right to me and never has. I hope and would actually _like to be wrong_ because any information being withheld or not rectified only harms the fight to find Maddie.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Oct 15, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			Sorry, its not about letting kids out of your site for a second. Kids move fast and are often out of site, that doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to keep my eyes on them. What the Mcanns did was knowingly leave THREE children ages 3 and below on their own while they went out for a meal and a drink with friends, not just once but several times. 
That is wrong, so very very wrong.
		
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Paddy, I totally agree with you, Watching the program last night it was said that Maddy was feeling unwell during the day. So my questions is why would you leave you kids unattended for 30 mins at a time knowing that she wasn't well. What happened if she had been sick during the night? I know when my lad was younger my ex wife would sleep in the same room as him all night to make sure he is OK. I know it might sound over the top but it prevents hindsight if something had gone wrong. To know your child isn't well and to still go out for a meal 100 yards away over a swimming pool etc is just unbelievable.


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## Khamelion (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			I take my boys to Legoland pretty often and if I wanted to be able to see them both 100% of the time, I would have to put them on leads.
		
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Many parents do, I see it all the time in the Metrocenter.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Sure they do. At 2 or 3, the kids are usually in different rooms from their parents, often on different floors and occasionally a single parent will put the bins out while the kids are in bed. 

Is it OK to walk to the garden gate? 

5 feet outside? 

Where is the acceptable limit, exactly?
		
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Are you really being that literal ?!

Ok let me rephrase it for you then - no parent leaves their kids alone for hours unsupervised and leaves the grounds of their home ie floors and garden and whilst on holiday no parent leaves them alone in the apt whilst the parents leave the apt and go out and have a meal 

A parent should always been IMO in ear shot of the child so they can hear the child if they get upset or something happens.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

Been reading this with interest, lots of know-it-all finger prodding (metaphorically of course) going on. 
The people being accused of being harsh and heartless are in the exact same boat as the people being accused of misplaced compassion... Not one of you know what _really_ happened. So no-one can claim that anyone else is right or wrong until the TRUTH of the matter comes out - eventually it will, it's the _when_ that's the question. 

FWIW, I would never leave my son alone in an appartment whilst abroad in order to do ANYTHING without first ensuring that someone was there to look after him, that's nothing to do with the McCann incident, it's just common sense to me. In the same way that whilst at home I am happy for him to be in another room as I can hear him and observe the surroundings (familiar surroundings at that) continually because I will notice anything out of place/out of the ordinary - I couldn't say the same in a foreign locale. 
As I live rurally, should I NEED to leave the house to do something whilst he is in bed and no-one else is around then I will lock the door whilst I do whatever it is. Overkill? Maybe but seems like common sense to me (which is subjective). 
If you were in the pub, wouold you leave your phone or keys on the table while you went to speak to someone at the other side of the pub? If you did and they went missing, would you feel/claim that you had done nothing wrong? Yes, I realise the scale is different, but the principle is the same. 
The line of sight claimed to be in existance was obviously not that clear or good otherwise what happened would have been witnessed. 
The above, like everyone's posts (regardless of being defensive or accusatory) is conjecture based on the little that I know. 

Not one person on this forum can say that another person's opinion is right or wrong unless they know significantly more in the way of fact, in which case they should be speaking with the police and not a bunch of weekend warriors and chompers.... 

#justsaying


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?


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## Khamelion (Oct 15, 2013)

Fish said:



			I believe in my personal opinion that they (McCanns) feel they have done nothing wrong and were unlucky!  I'm sorry but I disagree with that strongly, it wasn't unlucky, they assisted and helped those guilty of this by their own irresponsible actions.....
		
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100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?
		
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An investigation by child services and  the police and prosecution if they was no mitigation circumstances for them leaving their kids alone whilst they went out

It's happened here when a young mother went out shopping and left her two kids at home alone and the neighbours heard them crying and called the police - the kids were initially taken into care whilst she was investigated and prosecuted for neglect


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.
		
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Questions that Kate McCann refused to answer


The questions listed below form a record of the interrogation of Kate McCann conducted by Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of her three-year-old daughter Madeleine during a family holiday.
The questioning came after Mrs McCann was declared an arguido, or suspect, in September 2007.
Mrs McCann used her right to remain silent and only answered one question.
Her arguido status was lifted on 21 July this year. She and her husband have always denied any involvement in their daughter's disappearance.
The police inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance was wound up last month due to a lack of evidence.
7 SEPTEMBER QUESTIONS TO KATE McCANN
1	 On 3 May 2007 at around 2200, when you entered the apartment what did you see and do, where did you look, and what did you touch?
2	 Did you look inside the wardrobe in the bedroom? She said she wouldn't answer.
3	 (Shown two photographs of the wardrobe) Can you describe its contents?
4	 Why had the curtain behind the sofa in front of the side window (a photograph of which was shown to her), been disturbed? Had someone passed behind this sofa?
5	 How much time did you spend searching in the apartment after realising that your daughter Madeleine had disappeared?
6	 Why did you say from the start that Madeleine had been abducted?
7	 Assuming that Madeleine had been abducted, why did you leave the twins alone at home to go to the Tapas to raise the alarm, not least because the supposed abductor could still be in the apartment?
8	 Why did you not ask the twins at that moment what had happened to their sister, or why did you not ask them later?
9	 When you raised the alarm in the Tapas what specific words were used?
10	 What happened after raising the alarm at the Tapas?
11	 Did you have a mobile phone with you at that moment?
12	 Why did you go to warn your friends instead of shouting from the balcony?
13	 Who contacted the authorities?
14	 Who took part in the searches?
15	 Did someone outside the group learn, in the moments that followed, of Madeleine's disappearance?
16	 Did any neighbour offer you help after the alarm was raised about the disappearance?
17	 What did the expression "we let her down" mean?
18	 Did Jane tell you that she had seen a man carrying a child that night?
19	 How were the authorities contacted and which police force was alerted?
20	 During the searches after police arrived, in which places were Madeleine searched for, and in what way?
21	 Why did the twins not wake up during the search or when they went upstairs?
22	 Whom did you telephone after the discovery?
23	 Did you call Sky News?
24	 Did you know of any danger of calling the media alerting them of the abduction, since this could influence the abductor?
25	 Did you request the presence of a priest?
26	 In what way was the face of Madeleine, in photographs or by other means, released?
27	 Is it true that during the search you remained seated on Madeleine's bed in your room without moving?
28	 What was your behaviour like during that night?
29	 Did you manage to sleep?
30	 Before the trip to Portugal did you make a comment about a bad feeling or premonition about it?
31	 What was Madeleine's behaviour like?
32	 Did Madeleine suffer from any infirmity or take medication?
33	 What was Madeleine's relationship like with her brother and sister, friends and fellow pupils?
34	 Regarding your professional life, in how many hospitals and in which ones did you work?
35	 What was your speciality as a doctor?
36	 Do you work shifts in emergency wards or other departments?
37	 Do you work in the daytime?
38	 Why did you stop working at a certain point?
39	 Is it true or not that the twins have difficulty falling asleep, that they are restless and that this upsets you?
40	 Is it true or not that at certain times you felt desperate at your children's attitude and that this upsets you a lot?
41	 Is it true or not that in England you went so far as thinking about handing over Madeleine to a relative to look after?
42	 At home (in England) did you give medication to your children and what kind of medication?
43	 (Various films had been shown to her of the inspection by forensic dogs, where one can see their signalling indications of the scent of a human corpse and traces of human blood as well as the comments by the expert overseeing the exercise.) Having seen the film and after the scent of a corpse was signalled in her bedroom near the wardrobe, and behind the sofa by the window in the sitting room, Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
44	 She was asked about the sniffer dog that signalled human blood behind the above-mentioned sofa. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
45	 She was asked about the scent of corpse which was signalled in the vehicle she hired about a month after the disappearance, with number plate 59-DA-27. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
46	 When the presence of human blood was signalled in the boot of the same vehicle Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
47	 Confronted with the result of the sample of Madeleine's DNA, whose analysis was carried out by a British laboratory, found behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle, as previously described, Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
48	 Did you have any responsibility or involvement in the disappearance of your daughter Madeleine?
49	 Are you aware that the fact of your not answering the questions put to you jeopardise the investigation that was aimed at finding out what happened to your daughter, she answered: "Yes, if the investigation thinks that."
50	 Do you have anything to add? She said: "No."
51	 Her lawyer was asked to comment. He said he had nothing to state or request.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



*I am afraid you do not understand the charge of slander. You do not have to allege a criminal offence, nor is slander a criminal offence - it is a civil one in which you simply have to say something which could cause reputational damage. *Internet debate has been determined to be slander rather than libel. Hinting at something more than meets the eye (or whatever it was you said) could suggest you think the McCanns had a direct hand in the disappearance, for example, and you could be asked to explain exactly what you suspected and what evidence you had for that opinion. Good luck with the defence of gut instinct. You might be better saying a leprechaun appeared to you in a dream. At least a defence of insanity might play. 

Complaining about a court verdict is entirely different because the fact there was a cause brought in the first place is evidence that there were adequate grounds to believe the accused was guilty and a conviction might occur. Losing the case does not negate those grounds. And people are not found innocent, they are found not guilty which is not the same thing at all. 

Also, saying the McCanns are now unfit to look after their two other kids is not a huge stretch at reputational damage either. 

I am not trying to paint you as the bad guy. You are doing it all by yourself. You really should stop.
		
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On *this* please see for recent social media precedent the case of Lord McAlpine vs Sally Bercow and her little twitter


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			100%

While being interviewed, Kate McCann said, she felt she had done nothing wrong and that 100% of the blame is on those who took Madelaine. Just how Kate MacCann could sit there in seflrighteous indignation and spout such tripe is mind boggling. She cannot accept that she made a repeated monumental error in judgement and she is trying to spin it assuage the guilt.
		
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You keep coming back to this point and it baffles me. I didn't see the programme last night but did hear an interview with Kate McCann on the radio this morning, which I assumed was an excerpt from the programme. In it she absolutely admitted that they'd been wrong to leave her and that she had spent years "persecuting" (her exact word, I remember it as it seemed a strange choice) herself for it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Khamelion said:



			It is just plain good common sense that you *do not leave your children or children in your care alone at any point*, I just cannot comprehend why any parent would do that.
		
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Whilst I understand the emotion behind this statement it rather ignores the fact that kids can go missing at any point no matter how attentive you think you are being.  So you turn your back in the supermarket - your 3 yr old vanishes etc.  On holiday a few years ago in France we lost our 10yr old son for 5 hrs (from 1am - 6am).  We had a duplex apartment in a hotel.  Children downstairs - us upstairs.  In middle of night my son - who had sleep-walked in the past - got out of bed - walked out of our hotel room and vanished.  Yes - we found him - but not after the local police and sniffer dog teams had been called out.  Were we reckless having him sleep downstairs as we knew he had in the past done a bit of sleepwalking - were we negligent.  Nothing happened but 'what-if'?

This whole responsibility/negligence thing in respect of the McCanns is to me a very nasty side-issue to the real one of their daughter's disappearance.  Why so many folk seem to want to get at the McCanns and even see them jailed I really don't get, and for me is frankly beyond the pale.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Paddy, I totally agree with you, Watching the program last night it was said that Maddy was feeling unwell during the day. So my questions is why would you leave you kids unattended for 30 mins at a time knowing that she wasn't well. What happened if she had been sick during the night? I know when my lad was younger my ex wife would sleep in the same room as him all night to make sure he is OK. I know it might sound over the top but it prevents hindsight if something had gone wrong. To know your child isn't well and to still go out for a meal 100 yards away over a swimming pool etc is just unbelievable.
		
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Conjectural whatiffery - and completely besides the actual point of the disappearance of a little girl.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Questions that Kate McCann refused to answer


The questions listed below form a record of the interrogation of Kate McCann conducted by Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of her three-year-old daughter Madeleine during a family holiday.

7 SEPTEMBER QUESTIONS TO KATE McCANN
1	 On 3 May 2007 at around 2200, when you entered the apartment what did you see and do, where did you look, and what did you touch?
2...
		
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And your point is? Or what are you suggesting?  I'm assuming that this is not your own list so I'm wondering where you sourced it from - reference please?


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?
		
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Minimum 3yr probation with social services in constant contact with unannounced visits to ensure the protection and well being of the 2 other children. Reporting their movements to social services weekly and declare what they have in place in association with their movements due to work and other commitments.  I believe this has to be a minimum requirement because of the denial that Kate McCann constantly displays in doing nothing wrong!

However, that is based only if all the current information is true but if irregularities are found further down the line, then the full weight of the law should be exercised and charges followed through with prison being a real possibility if they have been found to Pervert the Course of Justice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			You keep coming back to this point and it baffles me. I didn't see the programme last night but did hear an interview with Kate McCann on the radio this morning, which I assumed was an excerpt from the programme. In it she absolutely admitted that they'd been wrong to leave her and that she had spent years "persecuting" (her exact word, I remember it as it seemed a strange choice) herself for it.
		
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She could have said "beating themselves up" over it - but that would sound bit 'flippant' to some of a certain mindset


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## HotDogAssassin (Oct 15, 2013)

There seems to be a lot of villagers with torches and pitchforks on the forum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Ok - so, given that everyone agrees that the McCanns and their friends were all wrong in their actions that, and other evenings, in leaving their children whilst they dined it begs the question. What action do you think should be taken against them?
		
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Nothing - they were mistaken but their mistake is understandable and would in 99.9999% of situations not have led to any problem.  Just on that they could not possibly have foreseen what occurred.


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## Rooter (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't keep up with the news about the case. My take is, it was a fundamental bad decision by the parents. From what i know of the case, it sounds very organised, the kidnapper knew their routine and she was "stolen to order" IMHO and is now living a new life having no clue who she actually is.

that's my theory.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Conjectural whatiffery - and completely besides the actual point of the disappearance of a little girl.
		
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Whatiffery aside, is it beside the point though?
In order for most crimes to be committed the opportunity has to be there. In this case, all the "known facts" (although facts seems to be stretching it) seem to indicate that the behaviour of the families (not just the McCann family) created the opportunity for whatever happened, TO HAPPEN. 

SLH, you seem to be on a crusade of innocence on this thread but the fact remains that you, nor anyone on this forum, knows what happened. We don't even know if this IS an abduction case. 
So, in a way, what you are doing is making assumptions just like the ones you are decrying as doing it. 

The point should never be lost that something has happened to a young child but until we find out what that something ACTUALLY is, then no one can say they are devoid of any responsibility or not. 
In my view, they created the opportunity, willfully or not by acting in a manner that I see as irresponsible. Many other see it that way too, it does not mean that they are wrong as we simply do not know.

I would also add that the examples of people letting kids get out of their sight and "we all do it" miss one point, where this happens (in the supermarche for example) we generally minimise the possibility of something going wrong by going looking for them as soon as we realise they are no longer in view. This is not the impression that the behaviour of the families gives in my opinion.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing - they were mistaken but their mistake is understandable and would in 99.9999% of situations not have led to any problem.  Just on that they could not possibly have foreseen what occurred.
		
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Unbelievable!

No they could not, nor anyone can foresee anything that may or may not happen, but, we do things to remove the opportunities so those people whom live around us can't take advantage of those situations, as such we put in place adequate protection by putting the welfare of our children first, the McCanns failed not once, but on multiple times allowing the opportunity to be gained.

They were negligent in their personal actions which has led to the disappearance of Maddie and should be held accountable, IMO.


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## dufferman (Oct 15, 2013)

Rooter said:



			I don't keep up with the news about the case. My take is, it was a fundamental bad decision by the parents. From what i know of the case, it sounds very organised, the kidnapper knew their routine and she was "stolen to order" IMHO and is now living a new life having no clue who she actually is.

that's my theory.
		
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I concur - whether she's living the life of a prince or a pauper, I think she's living a life in another country speaking another language and probably none the wiser to the life she once had.

When I lived at my parents, we were sitting watching TV one evening and heard a child's voice out on the street. We lived in a cul-de-sac and didin't get much passers by.

The voice was of a child. I kid you not, he lived 4 doors down and had woken after a nightmare and couldn't find his Daddy. So he simply let himself out the house to find him.

The father was next door having a glass of wine with the neighbor. After we started knocking on doors an embarrassed father tried to laugh it off and took the kid (who was probably 5 years old) back in the house. 

We all thought how truly irresponsible that man was. Leaving a kid alone like that. Leaving the front door unlocked. What could have happened? 

This all took place well after the McCann disappearance. I'm not a father but I'd never leave a kid alone in a house or anywhere else, for whatever reason. Surely, that is just common sense?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Fish said:



			the denial that Kate McCann constantly displays in doing nothing wrong!
.
		
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Where does this myth come from?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			Whatiffery aside, is it beside the point though?
In order for most crimes to be committed the opportunity has to be there. In this case, all the "known facts" (although facts seems to be stretching it) seem to indicate that the behaviour of the families (not just the McCann family) created the opportunity for whatever happened, TO HAPPEN
		
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Yes - but there has also to be context, probability and intent taken into account




			SLH, you seem to be on *a crusade of innocence* on this thread but the fact remains that you, nor anyone on this forum, knows what happened. We don't even know if this IS an abduction case. 
So, in a way, what you are doing is making assumptions just like the ones you are decrying as doing it.
		
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*Absolutely I am* the McCanns are indeed completely innocent in respect of the disappearance of their child - and that will not change unless evidence or admission to the contrary is available.  So yes I am making very important assumption - they are innocent until proven guilty.




			The point should never be lost that something has happened to a young child but until we find out what that something ACTUALLY is, then no one can say they are devoid of any responsibility or not.
		
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Yes you can - they are currently completely innocent in respect of the disappearance of their child




			In my view, they created the opportunity, willfully or not by acting in a manner that I see as irresponsible. Many other see it that way too, it does not mean that they are wrong as we simply do not know.

I would also add that the examples of people letting kids get out of their sight and "we all do it" miss one point, where this happens (in the supermarche for example) we generally minimise the possibility of something going wrong by going looking for them as soon as we realise they are no longer in view. This is not the impression that the behaviour of the families gives in my opinion.
		
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Oh well - they created the opportunity implies that they suspected that someone might be about to abduct their child.  And in respect of your supermarket comparison - only really valid as a criticism of the McCanns if they did nothing for sometime *after* discovering that their child was missing.

Still seems very unfortunate that so many seem to want to _get _the McCanns for something, even if they can't be _got _for direct involvement in the disappearanceof their child - which is frankly very sad and rather sick.


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## Robobum (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Where does this myth come from?
		
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It's in the BBC report today FD.

Mrs McCann said: "We're not the ones that have done something wrong here. It's the person who's gone into that apartment and taken a little girl away from her family."


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

Fish said:



			Unbelievable!

No they could not, nor anyone can foresee anything that may or may not happen, but, we do things to remove the opportunities so those people whom live around us can't take advantage of those situations, as such we put in place adequate protection by putting the welfare of our children first, the McCanns failed not once, but on multiple times allowing the opportunity to be gained.

They were negligent in their personal actions which has led to the disappearance of Maddie and should be held accountable, IMO.
		
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Not unbelieveable as I believe it.  Their actions *did not lead to the disappearance of their child*.  By their actions they may not have *prevented *the unforeseen happening - and that is as far as I will go on that.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Where does this myth come from?
		
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Karen, I believe that a statement that was used on last nights programme was "we are not the ones that have done anything wrong" or words similar. 
I know that I have read several similar quotes (albeit in newspapers/websites) that are attributed, strangely consistently, to Mrs McCann, not many statements or such coming from Mr McCann though that I have seen (for those that want to find conjecture in that, please do not look, it is a statement of opinion based purely on observations made personally).


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Where does this myth come from?
		
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Kaz, I have heard her say "we have done nothing wrong here...." on more than one occasion!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Robobum said:



			It's in the BBC report today FD.

Mrs McCann said: "We're not the ones that have done something wrong here. It's the person who's gone into that apartment and taken a little girl away from her family."
		
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Haven't seen that then but my guess is that context is everything. In the interview I heard she quite clearly stated that they were wrong to leave her.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but there has also to be context, probability and intent taken into account



*Absolutely I am* the McCanns are indeed completely innocent in respect of the disappearance of their child - and that will not change unless evidence or admission to the contrary is available.  So yes I am making very important assumption - they are innocent until proven guilty.



Yes you can - they are currently completely innocent in respect of the disappearance of their child



Oh well - they created the opportunity implies that they suspected that someone might be about to abduct their child.  And in respect of your supermarket comparison - only really valid as a criticism of the McCanns if they did nothing for sometime *after* discovering that their child was missing.

Still seems very unfortunate that so many seem to want to _get _the McCanns for something, even if they can't be _got _for direct involvement in the disappearanceof their child - which is frankly very sad and rather sick.
		
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I am not out to get anyone, in any shape or form. And being responsible does not mean you are guilty. You can be responsible while being innocent so please spare me that one. 
No, they did not suspect that someone may abduct their child, in the same way that the moron that overtakes on a dangerous road does not assume that there is oncoming traffic, but by taking actions they created the opportunity for it to happen without reasonable mitigation.

Anyhow, I will leave it at that, you are right and I am wrong. But please take in to account that I am not trying yo villify anyone, just merely point out that your actions can make you responsible without necissarily being guilty of a crime.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not unbelieveable as I believe it.  Their actions *did not lead to the disappearance of their child*.  By their actions they may not have *prevented *the unforeseen happening - and that is as far as I will go on that.
		
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Rubbish, of course their actions led to the abduction, if that is still what we all believe.  If they had only gone to the Tappas once, it wouldn't happened, if one person in the group took a rota and nightly watched the children, it wouldn't have happened. 

Repetitive, selfish and personal behaviour led to the abduction by leaving 3 children under the age of 4 alone.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Of course she has stated her regrets for leaving her, but it probably doesn't help finding Maddy for that aspect to become the dominant theme of public utterances. I am certain that privately the McCanns have bitterly regretted that every day since. 

Nor does the issue of her interview mean much. The Portuguese legal system is different from the British one, and it is probably standard practice to say little in a formal interview when still an arguido.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And your point is? Or what are you suggesting?  I'm assuming that this is not your own list so I'm wondering where you sourced it from - reference please?
		
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I referenced it from the BBC

They were the questions asked to her by the Portuguese Police trying to get a picture of what happened that night 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing - they were mistaken but their mistake is understandable and would in 99.9999% of situations not have led to any problem.  Just on that they could not possibly have foreseen what occurred.
		
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Understandable ?! You can understand why they left their kids alone whilst they went off to eat elsewhere 

Please tell me your reasons for understanding their actions that night 

Do you have kids ? Would you have done the same as them


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 15, 2013)

Why don't we start a witch hunt,? what about James Bulgers mum for not looking out for him at that shopping centre that day. Was she as negligent as the McCanns ?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing , clearly the McCanns thought that it would be ok, it wasn't . they know that now
Continued persecution of these people isn't going to change anything ,is it helping in the search?
Answer= NO
 so how about we stop


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not unbelieveable as I believe it.  Their actions *did not lead to the disappearance of their child*.  By their actions they may not have *prevented *the unforeseen happening - and that is as far as I will go on that.
		
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Their actions[leaving their kids alone]may not have led to the disapearence of their child.
However their actions[not being there]gave someone the chance to abduct her.
If they were there Maddie would still be with them today.
Shocking but true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			Anyhow, I will leave it at that, you are right and I am wrong. But please take in to account that I am not trying yo villify anyone, just merely point out that your actions can make you responsible without necissarily being guilty of a crime.
		
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I am saying two very simple things:

1) The McCanns could not have foreseen the disappearance of their child;
2) They McCanns are given what we know completely innocent of being in any way involved in the disappearance of their child.

Please tell me where I am wrong in either of the above.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			Their actions[leaving their kids alone]may not have led to the disapearence of their child.
		
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Indeed 



			However their actions[not being there]gave someone the chance to abduct her.
		
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Indeed they did - See Jamie Bulger case - abductions can happen in the most innocent and apparently low risk circumstances - and be carried out by the most unlikely of perpetrators.  But it was someone else's actions and not those of the McCanns that actually resulted in her disappearance.




			If they were *there *Maddie would still be with them today.
Shocking but true.
		
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*Where* - in her room?  Otherwise pure conjecture on your part.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Why don't we start a witch hunt,? what about James Bulgers mum for not looking out for him at that shopping centre that day. Was she as negligent as the McCanns ?
		
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I was going to post that question but decided that I felt I knew the answer


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed 


Indeed they did - See Jamie Bulger case - abductions can happen in the most innocent and apparently low risk circumstances - and be carried out by the most unlikely of perpetrators.  But it was someone else's actions and not those of the McCanns that actually resulted in her disappearance.



*Where* - in her room?  Otherwise pure conjecture on your part.
		
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The door was open
The lights would have been on
The tv might have been on.
If they were being targeted,and watched over a period of time,the abducter
would have known they were there,and imo would more than likely not have risked climbing in and
taking her that night.
Of course I could be wrong however,but I believe there presence would have deterred the abducter.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I was going to post that question but decided that I felt I knew the answer
		
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Just drawing parallels , but one is seen as a wronged woman, the other is being vilified in some quarters
Both were negligent, both had dire consequences 

Time to stop the bandwagon methinks


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Why don't we start a witch hunt,? what about James Bulgers mum for not looking out for him at that shopping centre that day. Was she as negligent as the McCanns ?
		
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IMHO, isn't the issue is that James Bulgers mother lost him accidentaly? Whereas the McCanns took the pre planned action to go and eat, and therefore leave their children behind. 

Every parent has lost a child briefly in a supermarket (I am led to believe, no direct experience), due to the nature of children, but planning to leave your children every night for 6 nights is a concious decision to do so.

I think the cases are pretty different in that respect.

For what its worth (similar amounts to what you pay for this...) I can see both sides, and like many, there seem to be a fair few reasons not to completely believe the McCanns official statement of events. I'm not saying that they did it, or anything like that, but I do think that what happened that night is very unlikely to be the exact same story as being reported. 

I can see why people are blaming them, in respect of leaving their child, and I do kind of agree with that, in the respect of that I'm surprised no outcome of child neglect came from it, or investigation from Social Services.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

James Bulgers mum didn't leave her child to go and have a meal and drinks 

James Bulgers mum was momentarily distracted in a butchers with her son - she didn't go out and decide to leave her child alone leaving him open to be abducted.

The McCanns decided to leave their kids alone - they weren't momentarily distracted like all parents are , they didn't take their eye of their kids for a split second and momentarily loose sight of them 

They had a choice and their choice every night was to leave their kids alone 

There is no comparison at all


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am saying two very simple things:

1) The McCanns could not have foreseen the disappearance of their child;
2) They McCanns are given what we know completely innocent of being in any way involved in the disappearance of their child.

Please tell me where I am wrong in either of the above.
		
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Umm, ok where do I start...? 
I never said they could know it would happen or foreseen it, what I am saying is that conditions were created to increase the probability of something happen. Whether you agree or not, which I don't care either way, by not being in a position to sufficiently monitor the situation this increased the risk. That is basic risk mitigation stuff and common sense. 
Secondly, and this is important, where do I say they are guilty of anything? As I said before, being responsible for something doesn't make you guilty. 

In my supermarket example (which was merely extending an example used by someone else) it is relevant in that it is highly likely that you would be monitoring the loaction of your child to know that they had gone out of sight and then act swiftly and accordingly. By creating a condition where that was not possible the propensity for risk to manifest increased. Again, this is risk mitigation 101 stuff. 
So, the point I make is not one of guilt SLH, it's one of responsibility in reaction to the publicised claims (and supported in some quarters) that they are without responsibility here (again, NOT GUILT!)

And you will find that I said you were right, so why would I point out where your OPINION on the matter was wrong?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I was going to post that question but decided that I felt I knew the answer
		
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Indeed Chris - could the fact that one event happened in a ordinary shoppoing centre in Liverpool to a 'working class' family and the other event in an expensive holiday complex in Portugal to a 'middle class' family have anything to do with perceptions?  Or do both events display they the same level of negligence on the part of the parents.

Anyway - as said - I find the whole 'negligence' and 'fault' side-issue debate frankly rather distasteful.  We all *know *that the parents did not check their children for half an hour, and *know *that this time period was exploited by person(s) unknown to abduct Madeline McCann.  And that is what really matters as far as I am concerned in respect of the McCanns involvement in the circumstances of their daughter's disappearance.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 15, 2013)

Is it an age dependent/cultural change, thing here. Remember:-  (Butlins tannoy operator):- There is a baby crying in chalet 147 in blue camp. Where were them parents, probably in the French bar getting bevvied. It was seen as ok in the 50/60/70's. Just a thought.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed Chris - could the fact that one event happened in a ordinary shoppoing centre in Liverpool to a 'working class' family and the other event in an expensive holiday complex in Portugal to a 'middle class' family have anything to do with perceptions?  Or do both events display they the same level of negligence on the part of the parents.

Anyway - as said - I find the whole 'negligence' and 'fault' side-issue debate frankly rather distasteful.  We all *know *that the parents did not check their children for half an hour, and *know *that this time period was exploited by person(s) unknown to abduct Madeline McCann.  And that is what really matters as far as I am concerned in respect of the McCanns involvement in the circumstances of their daughter's disappearance.
		
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Do you know the James Bulger story ? I would definitely suggest you read up on it and then you can point out the negligence from his mum

Also do you have children of your own


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed Chris - could the fact that one event happened in a ordinary shoppoing centre in Liverpool to a 'working class' family and the other event in an expensive holiday complex in Portugal to a 'middle class' family have anything to do with perceptions?  Or do both events display they the same level of negligence on the part of the parents.

Anyway - as said - I find the whole 'negligence' and 'fault' side-issue debate frankly rather distasteful.  We all *know *that the parents did not check their children for half an hour, and *know *that this time period was exploited by person(s) unknown to abduct Madeline McCann.  And that is what really matters as far as I am concerned in respect of the McCanns involvement in the circumstances of their daughter's disappearance.
		
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Sorry, HOW do you (or we all) know this. I thought the whole issue was still being investigated with the police themselves using the words "we think" an awful lot. 
So if you KNOW all of this, I think you better get on to Scotland Yard as they would probably like to know what and how you know.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We all *know *that the parents did not check their children for half an hour, and *know *that this time period was exploited by person(s) unknown to abduct Madeline McCann.  And that is what really matters as far as I am concerned in respect of the McCanns involvement in the circumstances of their daughter's disappearance.
		
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I hate to be pedantic, but we don't *know* anything. We have been *told* that it was half an hour. And we (and the police, although they have done so on the basis of evidence) have *assumed* that this was exploited by person(s) unknown.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			IMHO, isn't the issue is that James Bulgers mother lost him accidentaly? Whereas the McCanns took the pre planned action to go and eat, and therefore leave their children behind. 

Every parent has lost a child briefly in a supermarket (I am led to believe, no direct experience), due to the nature of children, but planning to leave your children every night for 6 nights is a concious decision to do so.

I think the cases are pretty different in that respect.

For what its worth (similar amounts to what you pay for this...) I can see both sides, and like many, there seem to be a fair few reasons not to completely believe the McCanns official statement of events. I'm not saying that they did it, or anything like that, but I do think that what happened that night is very unlikely to be the exact same story as being reported. 

I can see why people are blaming them, in respect of leaving their child, and I do kind of agree with that, in the respect of that I'm surprised no outcome of child neglect came from it, or investigation from Social Services.
		
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Clearly there are differences between the two cases, but similar enough to raise questions.

Social Services are probably barred from acting on matters from abroad even if the people involved are British

The story that I saw last night was not only from the McCanns but the other families story as well on the night, that is, who and when, different people went to check their children. If there were lies being told I think other diners at the table would not collude and we'd soon know.

How anyone can look at the McCanns on a tv show and decide that they are hiding something is beyond my comprehension


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			Umm, ok where do I start...? 
I never said they could know it would happen or foreseen it, what I am saying is that conditions were created to increase the probability of something happen. Whether you agree or not, which I don't care either way, by not being in a position to sufficiently monitor the situation this increased the risk. That is basic risk mitigation stuff and common sense. 
Secondly, and this is important, where do I say they are guilty of anything? As I said before, being responsible for something doesn't make you guilty. 

In my supermarket example (which was merely extending an example used by someone else) it is relevant in that it is highly likely that you would be monitoring the loaction of your child to know that they had gone out of sight and then act swiftly and accordingly. By creating a condition where that was not possible the propensity for risk to manifest increased. Again, this is risk mitigation 101 stuff. 
So, the point I make is not one of guilt SLH, it's one of responsibility in reaction to the publicised claims (and supported in some quarters) that they are without responsibility here (again, NOT GUILT!)

And you will find that I said you were right, so why would I point out where your OPINION on the matter was wrong?
		
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But where am I wrong?  I am putting aside for a moment what others may be saying and asking that simple question on my two statements - are they factually correct or incorrect.  Then other than my 'factual' statements, what other facts do we know?  Everything else I read here is based upon supposition or conjecture.  I would rather discussions were based upon fact.

I have said that my gut instinct reaction was one of blame and suspicion - but on reflection I realised how shameful and unfair on the parents that that reaction was - and hence my current stance.  In such serious cases as this, opinion based upon supposition or conjecture is dangerous and should be rebutted strongly.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Clearly there are differences between the two cases, but similar enough to raise questions.

Social Services are probably barred from acting on matters from abroad even if the people involved are British

The story that I saw last night was not only from the McCanns but the other families story as well on the night, that is, who and when, different people went to check their children. If there were lies being told I think other diners at the table would not collude and we'd soon know.

How anyone can look at the McCanns on a tv show and decide that they are hiding something is beyond my comprehension
		
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Good point about Social Services. I hadn't considered that.

With regards the other diners, I think it's easy enough for certain memories to be swayed, with a bit of suggestion. I can't imagine anyone was checking precisely on the time. 

I'm not doing so based on a TV interview (although others may be). I'm doing so based on scepticism, and the belief that people have poor memory, easy to be influenced after an event to believe what you want to believe. if you tell a lie enough times, convincingly, you get to the point where you start to believe it yourself. (and no, before anyone says it, I'm not convincing anyone of lying deliberately)


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But where am I wrong?  I am putting aside for a moment what others may be saying and asking that simple question on my two statements - are they factually correct or incorrect.  Then other than my 'factual' statements, what other facts do we know?  Everything else I read here is based upon supposition or conjecture.  I would rather discussions were based upon fact.

I have said that my gut instinct reaction was one of blame and suspicion - but on reflection I realised how shameful and unfair on the parents that that reaction was - and hence my current stance.  In such serious cases as this, opinion based upon supposition or conjecture is dangerous and should be rebutted strongly.
		
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Ok, how do you FACTUALLY know that they didn't know that the "abduction" (if that is what we are dealing with) was not going to happen? Do you know them personally and have been told this as fact? If not then your opinion is as based on as much fact as any other. 
Do you FACTUALLY know that they are not involved? Again, unless you have evidence that says no (bearing in mind that people are PRESUMED innocent, not that they ACTUALLY are) then again, it is just an opinion that is neither right nor wrong. 

The facts and evidence are very sparse and have trained detectives confused and scrabbling about, yet you seem to be able to assert a clear statemnet of innocence on all counts around the family.
For why? You felt guilty becuase you thought ill of someone based on information that you read/saw? Presumption is supposition and conjecture as well as it is not the FACT of being innocent, just because presumption of innocence isn't a negative it doesn't make it any less so.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not unbelieveable as I believe it.  Their actions *did not lead to the disappearance of their child*. .
		
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I cant believe you wrote that! So you are telling us that if they had stayed in that night instead the little girl would have still gone missing as easily as she did. Come on! Get real!


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## richy (Oct 15, 2013)

When Maddie woke up crying the night before with her brother and then asked her mother where she was the following morning why didn't they decide that at least one of them would stay in I case the poor thing woke upset again looking for her parents. Probably because going out and drinking was more important. Bad parenting IMO


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## Pistol Peter (Oct 15, 2013)

So many if's & but's here and we many never know the whole truth, I just hope the girl is safe and living a new life somewhere.

The parents for their part should be punished as the only certain thing about the whole matter is that if they had not left the children alone then this would never had happened and they need to be accountable for this.


How SILH can defend the parents and say they have done no wrong is just beyond me and I for one can't accept what he is saying, as for the child I just hope she is safe and well and getting better care than her parents were giving her.


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## Mungoscorner (Oct 15, 2013)

https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone

"it is an offence to leave a child alone, if doing so place's him or her at risk"

"Babies, toddlers and very young children, should NEVER be left alone"

"The law says that parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised "in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering, or injury to health" 

Why haven't the McCanns been prosecuted for neglecting Maddie and her siblings ?
I cannot believe that any parent would condone the actions of the McCanns.

http://www.helpfindben.co.uk/

Hardly hear a word about poor Ben Needham now.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

This is worrying that there is no consistency.

Taken from the site.

_""After watching all the publicity surrounding Madeleine McCannâ€™s disappearance and seeing all the support the McCann family were receiving from the British Government, I decided it was time that they also helped in our search for Ben.  Over the years I had been told that British Police could not investigate crimes abroad and that the country of the crime would need to invite them.

British Police went to Portugal â€“ so why not Greece?  MPâ€™s campaigned for the McCann family, so why not the Needhamsâ€™?  Millions of pounds were raised in the McCann case â€“ why not the Needhams? It seemed to the Needham family that Ben was unimportant in high places.  The only people who seemed to care were his family, some members of the public and the South Yorkshire Police.""_

:angry:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

My god are we not all so frickin' perfect here.  I can't stand the disgusting aspertions being cast here on really no basis of fact to fit a scenario some have painted in their mind.  If you cannot accept that the McCanns *could not possibly have foreseen *their child being abducted; that the risk of a child being abducted in the context of that resort is almost disappearing small; you think that by being a short distance away and only checking every so often that this makes them negligible and culpable and worthy of a jail sentence; and that 'someone must be blamed'; then god help you all when you slip from your self-righteous perches.

It's almost funny that some take such views if it wasn't so serious.  I try and stand back and take a fair, unemotional and reasoned view rather than an accusatory and fault, blame and retribution-seeking view - and I get scoffed at as if I am some weird nutcase who has completely lost grip on reality.  Great.


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## guest100718 (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My god are we not all so frickin' perfect here.  I can't stand the disgusting aspertions being cast here on really no basis of fact to fit a scenario some have painted in their mind.  If you cannot accept that the McCanns *could not possibly have foreseen *their child being abducted; that the risk of a child being abducted in the context of that resort is almost disappearing small; and think that by being a short distance away and only checking every so often that this makes them negligible and culpable and worthy of a jail sentence, then god help you all when you slip from your self-righteous perches.

It's almost funny that some take such views if it wasn't so serious.
		
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Although we don't know that she was abducted. I doubt we'll ever know what really happened.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2013)

guest100718 said:



			Although we don't know that she was abducted. I doubt we'll ever know what really happened.
		
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Of course we don't know that - sje might well have got out of bed and wandered off and got lost - fallen into the sea and drowned.

Anyway - I'm now out of this and will leave the rest of you wallow in your self-righteous indigination about the behaviour of the McCanns - enjoy.  Oh and a thought - maybe a wee prayer for the McCanns from each here this evening before bed would be nice - no I thought not.


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My god are we not all so frickin' perfect here.  I can't stand the disgusting aspertions being cast here on really no basis of fact to fit a scenario some have painted in their mind.  If you cannot accept that the McCanns *could not possibly have foreseen *their child being abducted; that the risk of a child being abducted in the context of that resort is almost disappearing small; you think that by being a short distance away and only checking every so often that this makes them negligible and culpable and worthy of a jail sentence; and that 'someone must be blamed'; then god help you all when you slip from your self-righteous perches.

It's almost funny that some take such views if it wasn't so serious.  I try and stand back and take a fair, unemotional and reasoned view rather than an accusatory and fault, blame and retribution-seeking view - and I get scoffed at as if I am some weird nutcase who has completely lost grip on reality.  Great.
		
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Far from perfect,however  I would never ever contempate leaving 2 year old twins and a 3 year old girl
on there own at night in another country.
That in my eyes means im a sensible caing parent.
There are many other things that can happen to a child wen left alone especially at a young age.
Im sure your far from a nutcase,but these people were irresponsible parents that night.
 I for one cant see how you cant see that.


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2013)

Don't really want to get involved in this thread too much, but I'm having a few problems comparing the general consensus on this thread with recent experiences whilst abroad. Having recently returned from a similar type resort as the one in Portugal, My wife and I regularly commented on the actions of a sizable minority of parents. We saw children wandering around unsupervised throughout the day and Night while groups were sat eating/drinking. These children were as young as 2/3 and were seemingly allowed the run of the complex (including 4 Pools) till well after myself, my wife and our 2 young'uns (5&9) went to bed. 

I suppose there can only be one explanation. None of the parents were Forum frequenting Golfers...

Maybe my wife and I are overly cautious. We've never left our kids unsupervised, either at home or on holiday. In fact, I can't understand why people wouldn't take their kids out with them at night when abroad. It's one of the things I love about going on holiday. The fact that the kids can come out with us for a meal till late.

Despite this though, I still think that the McCann's should be given a little more compassion than has been shown on here at points. I understand most peoples views, I just disagree with some of them..


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My god are we not all so frickin' perfect here.  I can't stand the disgusting aspertions being cast here on really no basis of fact to fit a scenario some have painted in their mind.  If you cannot accept that the McCanns *could not possibly have foreseen *their child being abducted; that the risk of a child being abducted in the context of that resort is almost disappearing small; you think that by being a short distance away and only checking every so often that this makes them negligible and culpable and worthy of a jail sentence; and that 'someone must be blamed'; then god help you all when you slip from your self-righteous perches.

It's almost funny that some take such views if it wasn't so serious.  I try and stand back and take a fair, unemotional and reasoned view rather than an accusatory and fault, blame and retribution-seeking view - and I get scoffed at as if I am some weird nutcase who has completely lost grip on reality.  Great.
		
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Is it not a FACT that they left their three kids alone in their apartment whilst they went and had dinner in a Tapas Bar 

Is it not a FACT that they did it every night they were there

Is it not a FACT that whilst they were not in the Apartment  their child went missing 

They are the FACTS that people are using 

The first FACT is the one that they should be charged with as per the laws of child protection 

Do you deny any of those facts 

You said that leaving them alone was understandable - please enlighten me why it was understandable 

You also tried to compare the James Bulger incident when it's factually different

And finally do you yourself have children and would you leave them alone like the McCanns did


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## Pistol Peter (Oct 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My god are we not all so frickin' perfect here.  I can't stand the disgusting aspertions being cast here on really no basis of fact to fit a scenario some have painted in their mind.  If you cannot accept that the McCanns *could not possibly have foreseen *their child being abducted; that the risk of a child being abducted in the context of that resort is almost disappearing small; you think that by being a short distance away and only checking every so often that this makes them negligible and culpable and worthy of a jail sentence; and that 'someone must be blamed'; then god help you all when you slip from your self-righteous perches.

It's almost funny that some take such views if it wasn't so serious.  I try and stand back and take a fair, unemotional and reasoned view rather than an accusatory and fault, blame and retribution-seeking view - and I get scoffed at as if I am some weird nutcase who has completely lost grip on reality.  Great.
		
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I think you are missing the point here Mr H, most parents and going by the response on here nobody would leave their children alone in their own house never mind a foreign hotel/apartment and if they did and the authorities found out then they would be charged as its an offence. They had no other reason to leave them other than to have a drink at a local pub/restaurant, now how is that classed as good parenting.

Would this have happened if they had stayed in the apartment or indeed spent a few quid on getting someone to watch the children, nope I think not. I ask you Mr H would you leave your young children in the same situation so you could have a wee dram with your friends because from what I read of your posts you seem to think that it is acceptable and the done thing to do.

The whole truth of the matter is that if they had acted as responsible parents this little girl would still be with them that I am sure.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not a FACT that whilst they were not in the Apartment  their child went missing
		
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Not a fact Phil.


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## drawboy (Oct 15, 2013)

I haven't read every single post so please accept my apologies if this has been mentioned before but IF and I believe it is a mammoth IF the child is ever found do the authorities hand her back to parents that could not be bothered looking after her properly in the first place?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Not a fact Phil.
		
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So when did the child go missing ? 

It was between 21:05 and 22:00

The husband checked at 21:05 and it's possible the abductor was hiding in the room then 

At 21:30 a family friend went I check but didn't actually see Maddy 

And at 22:00 They reported her missing

So when did she go missing if she didn't when they went in the apt


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when did the child go missing ? 

It was between 21:05 and 22:00

The husband checked at 21:05 and it's possible the abductor was hiding in the room then 

At 21:30 a family friend went I check but didn't actually see Maddy 

And at 22:00 They reported her missing

So when did she go missing if she didn't when they went in the apt
		
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I think he's alluding to the possibility that they were in the apartment when she went "missing", he just didn't have the guts to say it. Hiding behind casual accusations.. Poor form... Apologies if im wrong obviously..


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when did the child go missing ? 

It was between 21:05 and 22:00

The husband checked at 21:05 and it's possible the abductor was hiding in the room then 

At 21:30 a family friend went I check but didn't actually see Maddy 

And at 22:00 They reported her missing

So when did she go missing if she didn't when they went in the apt
		
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The only provable fact in that list is when it was reported, everything else is the word and times of the parents


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2013)

drawboy said:



			I haven't read every single post so please accept my apologies if this has been mentioned before but IF and I believe it is a mammoth IF the child is ever found do the authorities hand her back to parents that could not be bothered looking after her properly in the first place?
		
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Now we really have hit rock bottom.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Fish said:



			The only provable fact in that list is when it was reported, everything else is the word and times of the parents
		
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And the friends who also went to check on the kids

I don't trust Kate McCann but I don't believe they directly had a hand in her disappearing - that's pushing the boundaries a little bit because they doesn't appear to be much evidence to back anything like that up


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Now we really have hit rock bottom.
		
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I don't know Karen. I think there's still room to sink further yet..


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			I think he's alluding to the possibility that they were in the apartment when she went "missing", he just didn't have the guts to say it. Hiding behind casual accusations.. Poor form... Apologies if im wrong obviously..
		
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No casual accusations bluewolf. I'm just calling people out on using the word "fact" indiscriminantly. Unless there is sufficient evidence to prove *anything* then nothing is a fact. 
I'm not implying they did anything, but we don't know what actually happened. Therefore these times that are thrown around are not fact. Sorry to be pedantic.


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2013)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			No casual accusations bluewolf. I'm just calling people out on using the word "fact" indiscriminantly. Unless there is sufficient evidence to prove *anything* then nothing is a fact. 
I'm not implying they did anything, but we don't know what actually happened. Therefore these times that are thrown around are not fact. Sorry to be pedantic.
		
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Fair point mate. As I said, apologies if I'm wrong..


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the friends who also went to check on the kids

I don't trust Kate McCann but I don't believe they directly had a hand in her disappearing - that's pushing the boundaries a little bit because they doesn't appear to be much evidence to back anything like that up
		
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I'm not saying that, as I stated before, times get stretched, especially after a series of nights and as such the windows of opportunity get larger. As I also said before, when you start to say things over and over, you actually start believing them as true. If the times are correct, the window of opportunity was very small and the precise abduction was a huge risk and if successful was timed unbelievably, it just doesn't sit with me as the activity in that small time frame would have become more compact and more noticeable.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

As an aside I was speaking with a friend about this just now and he told me that last month he went out to the garage (35 yards from the house) to get a hammer which took him less than 5 minutes. In that time his 4 year old girl climbed on the couch and fell off the back splitting her head open. 
At the hospital they asked how it happened and being the honest, law abiding person he is, he told them EXACTLY what happened. He now has an interview with Social Services next Wednesday for an assessment of his ability to look after his child as they state that under no circumstances should that have been allowed to happen. 

Heavy handed as hell, however that is what they state the rules are.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Fair point mate. As I said, apologies if I'm wrong..
		
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:cheers:


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			Now we really have hit rock bottom.
		
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I'm sure we haven't and a some posters will find even more depressing ways to express self righteous moral outrage 

Any danger of changing the subject?  I had a lesson today and it was like an eureka moment.  He pointed out I was cupping my right hand too much in the down swing (I am a lefty), gripping too tight and not not cocking my wrist enough at the top of the swing, which was leading to a hooded club face at impact.  So after a bit of practice not doing said faults I managed to hit some shots a) a long way, b) straightish and c) with the correct flight for the first time in ages.  

He said my swing plane and takeaway were spot on, so I must have been shooting some good scores recently.  I didn't have the heart to tell him I struggle to break 100 nowadays, but with my new tips I am a new man and am looking forwards to forgetting it all during the winter. 

Or what about Scottish Independence, what's that all about?  I see TM have a new set of irons out, must mean the day ends in a y, Andy Murray, British sporting hero and nailed on SPOTY.....


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			As an aside I was speaking with a friend about this just now and he told me that last month he went out to the garage (35 yards from the house) to get a hammer which took him less than 5 minutes. In that time his 4 year old girl climbed on the couch and fell off the back splitting her head open. 
At the hospital they asked how it happened and being the honest, law abiding person he is, he told them EXACTLY what happened. He now has an interview with Social Services next Wednesday for an assessment of his ability to look after his child as they state that under no circumstances should that have been allowed to happen. 

Heavy handed as hell, however that is what they state the rules are.
		
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Show me the rule or law that says he can't leave a 4 year old to go 35 yards to the garage on your own property. 

Ridiculous and there is not a chance that one isolated event such as that would result in any action.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

A child has got hurt and it's bad enough to be hospital so they ask what happened and if the child has been hurt whilst being without acceptable supervision then child services get notified and the parents interviewed.

It's called child protection and gets tougher every time a child gets harmed 

They will ensure that they child is safe

A parent could say a child tripped etc whilst in the garage when in reality he could have pushed the child etc ( not saying that's true in this case )

When it comes to child protection then it's better to be safe than sorry 

This seems a case of just an accident and a parent just taking his eye of the ball for a split second


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## Imurg (Oct 15, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Don't really want to get involved in this thread too much, but I'm having a few problems comparing the general consensus on this thread with recent experiences whilst abroad. Having recently returned from a similar type resort as the one in Portugal, My wife and I regularly commented on the actions of a sizable minority of parents. We saw children wandering around unsupervised throughout the day and Night while groups were sat eating/drinking. These children were as young as 2/3 and were seemingly allowed the run of the complex (including 4 Pools) till well after myself, my wife and our 2 young'uns (5&9) went to bed. 

I suppose there can only be one explanation. None of the parents were Forum frequenting Golfers...

Maybe my wife and I are overly cautious. We've never left our kids unsupervised, either at home or on holiday. In fact, I can't understand why people wouldn't take their kids out with them at night when abroad. It's one of the things I love about going on holiday. The fact that the kids can come out with us for a meal till late.

Despite this though, I still think that the McCann's should be given a little more compassion than has been shown on here at points. I understand most peoples views, I just disagree with some of them..
		
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Seems it's a fairly common thing after all.
Going to an awful lot of people being charged with neglect...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 15, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			Any danger of changing the subject?
		
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Don't worry, I think people have already done this. There are plenty of other threads where something different is discussed! I've never understood why people go into a thread that a lot of people are contributing in, and moan about how long it is. Maybe you should suggest in the Forum suggestions area of a post limit in threads?


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## HotDogAssassin (Oct 15, 2013)

Am I the only one thinking that this thread has gone on as long as it needs to?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2013)

Hmm I have 3 stitches in the back of my head after falling off a school bench aged 6 ... Think I'll claim compensation from KCC ! Oh and there are few other times they let me off the leash allowing me to do myself harm. These teachers are rubbish they just don't care for children


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## User20205 (Oct 15, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Despite this though, I still think that the McCann's should be given a little more compassion than has been shown on here at points. I understand most peoples views, I just disagree with some of them..
		
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This, this and more of this:thup:

There are too many on here that get off on playing soap box solicitor, when the main case for the prosecution has been lifted directly from Wikipedia or worse, the mail

Anyone else who uses 'fact' or 'gut feeling' in a post should have the full weight of moderation brought against them, for crimes against rational argument....FACT (whoops)


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			Am I the only one thinking that this thread has gone on as long as it needs to?
		
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Nope... Time to take the mickey ! 
Any way are these people posting from a place of work?


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## User20205 (Oct 15, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			Am I the only one thinking that this thread has gone on as long as it needs to?
		
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I quite like it in a perverse way.. It gives a real insight into what judgemental knobs some really are.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Show me the rule or law that says he can't leave a 4 year old to go 35 yards to the garage on your own property. 

Ridiculous and there is not a chance that one isolated event such as that would result in any action.
		
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For him its not about action being taken or not taken. Its the fact he has to go through it because Social Services deem that a child came to harm while in his care. There is no rule on distance by all accounts. The rulea say that the child came to harm serious enough to warrant their visit. Whether we agree with it or not.


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## Rooter (Oct 15, 2013)

HotDogAssassin said:



			Am I the only one thinking that this thread has gone on as long as it needs to?
		
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probably, its an emotive subject. lets just remember there is a little girl either living a new life, or worse. irrespective or the hows and whys...


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A child has got hurt and it's bad enough to be hospital so they ask what happened and if the child has been hurt whilst being without acceptable supervision then child services get notified and the parents interviewed.

It's called child protection and gets tougher every time a child gets harmed 

They will ensure that they child is safe

A parent could say a child tripped etc whilst in the garage when in reality he could have pushed the child etc ( not saying that's true in this case )

When it comes to child protection then it's better to be safe than sorry 

This seems a case of just an accident and a parent just taking his eye of the ball for a split second
		
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Yes, I know what child protection is, but there is no law saying you can't go to the garage with a 4 year old in the house. Certain injuries and patterns of injuries are suggestive (although not diagnostic) of child abuse, but go to any A&E any Saturday afternoon and there will be a classroom's worth of kids with injuries of some sort. Despite the horrify incidents of Baby  P other similar cases, these are still rather rare.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

He hasn't been charged under any "law" though because the police don't appear to be involved


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			For him its not about action being taken or not taken. Its the fact he has to go through it because Social Services deem that a child came to harm while in his care. There is no rule on distance by all accounts. The rulea say that the child came to harm serious enough to warrant their visit. Whether we agree with it or not.
		
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Nonsense. Social Services do not and should not investigate every child injured inside or outside a house who attends A&E.


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## Robobum (Oct 15, 2013)

therod said:



			I quite like it in a perverse way.. It gives a real insight into what judgemental knobs some really are.
		
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Are you suggesting that you are taking even higher moral ground than our current lofty perch?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Nonsense. Social Services do not and should not investigate every child injured inside or outside a house who attends A&E.
		
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Do you work in Social Services ?


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## Rooter (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Nonsense. Social Services do not and should not investigate every child injured inside or outside a house who attends A&E.
		
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my daughter broke both her wrists recently, we didn't see the social... and i am surprised as she is proper accident prone and has visited A&E or out of hours a lot!!


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## User20205 (Oct 15, 2013)

Robobum said:



			Are you suggesting that you are taking even higher moral ground than our current lofty perch?
		
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I'm not qualified to judge the judgemental. Just to pass comment on the level of their unqualified righteous indignation. 

Leaving her was wrong, to stand it judgement and hint at another darker alternative version of events is nonsense.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you work in Social Services ?
		
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Do you? 

I have worked in medicine for 25 years including A&E and paediatrics.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Do you? 

I have worked in medicine for 25 years including A&E and paediatrics.
		
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No but my better half does - and in child services as well 

And you wouldn't believe the amount of neglected and abused children there are out there currently

She is regularly having to go to L & D and MK hospital to see children that have been hurt


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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

therod said:



			Leaving her was wrong, to stand it judgement and hint at another darker alternative version of events is nonsense.
		
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Let's hope the authorities now investigating this matter haven't disregarded an "alternative version" out of hand as well or it'll be another potentially botched investigation into the same incident!!


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## CMAC (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No but my better half does - and in child services as well 

*And you wouldn't believe the amount of neglected and abused children there are out there currently*

She is regularly having to go to L & D and MK hospital to see children that have been hurt
		
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isn't that just making the point though, social services are up to their eyes and beyond in repeatable consistent cases and I find it unbelievable they would entertain a one off 'incident' where a child split her head open and daddy was on the property. The Doctors/nursing staff would also have to alert Social services first and have 'reason' to do so.


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## User20205 (Oct 15, 2013)

O



Kellfire said:



			Let's hope the authorities now investigating this matter haven't disregarded an "alternative version" out of hand as well or it'll be another potentially botched investigation into the same incident!!
		
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Maybe they should come and ask you. You do seem to be well informed...oh wait it's a gut feeling. They look shifty them mcanns


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

It's using a blanket policy of its better to see as many as possible in fear of missing one.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

I feel somewhat reassured with the standards of golfers.

There are so many that have never in any way shape or form ever done anything to put their children's well being at risk.

Glad I play golf if that's one of the qualities


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I feel somewhat reassured with the standards of golfers.

There are so many that have never in any way shape or form ever done anything to put their children's well being at risk.

Glad I play golf if that's one of the qualities
		
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Certainly never done it by choice which is the point that people are making that seems to be missed 

People aren't perfect , parents make mistakes as they grow up , I turned my bag once and my little lad started to walk out the back door ! I didn't decide to do that 

The McCanns decided by their own free will to leave their kids alone whilst they went for dinner ( every night ) 

You won't find many on here that will do that 

That doesn't mean they are claiming to be perfect they just show a lot more common sense than what the McCanns did


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## AmandaJR (Oct 15, 2013)

richy said:



			When Maddie woke up crying the night before with her brother and then asked her mother where she was the following morning why didn't they decide that at least one of them would stay in I case the poor thing woke upset again looking for her parents. Probably because going out and drinking was more important. Bad parenting IMO
		
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That's what really struck me about the interview. Plus Maddy was very tired and pale that day - still they went out and left her/them. Then when he checked he noticed the bedroom door was wider open than he left it...so what did he do...go back to the tapas bar.

They've paid a ridiculously huge price for their negligence and selfishness but for me that's what there chosen course of action was.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That doesn't mean they are claiming to be perfect they just show a lot more common sense than what the McCanns did
		
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Correct - a really really bad lack of common sense, but on here they have pretty much been painted as bad as the abductor. 

No one has claimed they did right to leave the kids but I would be willing to bet that hundreds of young kids are left in houses whilst parents pop out for various reasons - luckily most don't get abducted!


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## triple_bogey (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			No one has claimed they did right to leave the kids but I would be willing to bet that hundreds of young kids are left in houses whilst parents pop out for various reasons - luckily most don't get abducted!
		
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Correct, once in a blue moon. NOT 6 nights in a row.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's using a blanket policy of its better to see as many as possible in fear of missing one.
		
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But a blanket policy is not appropriate (nor legal) as a social services interrogation is not a neutral act. People cannot be implicitly accused of something without reasonable grounds. 

Maybe Luton is a hotbed for this sort of thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Correct - a really really bad lack of common sense, but on here they have pretty much been painted as bad as the abductor. 

No one has claimed they did right to leave the kids but I would be willing to bet that hundreds of young kids are left in houses whilst parents pop out for various reasons - luckily most don't get abducted!
		
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That still doesn't make it right though does it ?

That still means that they must share some of the blame for what happened that night 

Their actions indirectly assisted the child going missing

That's not saying it's all their fault and they are as bad as the abductor ( and i honestly don't see many suggesting they are ) but I have seen posters trying to justify their actions that night with one person saying it was "understandable" 

Parents should do everything in their powe to protect their children - that I believe is a duty of being a parent - that night the McCanns failed in that duty. They failed to protect their daughter


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			But a blanket policy is not appropriate (nor legal) as a social services interrogation is not a neutral act. People cannot be implicitly accused of something without reasonable grounds. 

Maybe Luton is a hotbed for this sort of thing.
		
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There is no accusation or implication and not always an interrogation - it's a fact funding mission and a judgement finding with most of the time nothing more happening with trust being placed in parents


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Nonsense. Social Services do not and should not investigate every child injured inside or outside a house who attends A&E.
		
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Wow. Nonsense? Really? Wish I knew as much as you Ethan. Thay big brain of yours correcting folks along the way. 
Guess what big boy? Nonsense or not THATS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO HIM. After he has been quizzed up here in Jockland I'm sure he will take solace in tge fact it was really all nonsense, Ethan from GM Forum said so....


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## pokerjoke (Oct 15, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I feel somewhat reassured with the standards of golfers.

There are so many that have never in any way shape or form ever done anything to put their children's well being at risk.

Glad I play golf if that's one of the qualities
		
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For a guy that found this thread distasteful you seem to be trying to stir it up.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			Wow. Nonsense? Really? Wish I knew as much as you Ethan. Thay big brain of yours correcting folks along the way. 
Guess what big boy? Nonsense or not THATS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO HIM. After he has been quizzed up here in Jockland I'm sure he will take solace in tge fact it was really all nonsense, Ethan from GM Forum said so....
		
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Sorry if you don't like it. Your right to do so. Hate to see facts get in the way of your rant. It is simply the case that SS do not investigate every injured child. If you believe that they do, please provide evidence. Big brain not needed to know that, although some common sense would help. 

By the way putting stuff in CAPITALS does not make a point any more meaningful.


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			For a guy that found this thread distasteful you seem to be trying to stir it up.
		
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It's an acquired skill! :whoo:


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

I found it quite worrying that people don't seem to think its a big deal to leave a 3yr old & her 2 younger siblings alone whilst you go out on the razz. No one that's commented on this thread as claimed to be perfect but come on for god sake. After watching last nights crime watch the only person I feel sorry for is Madeline.


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## swanny32 (Oct 15, 2013)

My parents live in the South of France and have a gite attached to their house which they rent out year round. Whenever we go over to visit and have a weeks holiday my Mum always asks us if we want to stay in the gite so it feels more like a holiday, we always say no as it would mean leaving the kids in there when they go to bed while we sit out on the patio with my parents, despite it only being less than 30 yards away it's still around the other side of the house, we just couldn't do that. I'm not saying I'm a better parent than the McCann's but I (We) would never in a million years do what they did that night, we'd either host the social gathering or not go. End of.

Some of you are right, they only have themselves to blame and although this might be a rather harsh way of looking at it, in some way it's true. I pray that one day Maddie is found, dead or alive. I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to lose a kid, but then to go for 6/7 years not knowing if she is dead or alive must be harrowing, unfortunately I personally think her life was ended some time ago.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest about public money being spent on trying to find her, I'd rather it be spent on her thnn it being spent on some low life scumbag claiming benefits and spending it all on crack.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2013)

I tell you what, I'd hate to be on trial with some of the posters on here being on the jury.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

Hacker Khan said:



			I tell you what, I'd hate to be on trial with some of the posters on here being on the jury.
		
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Don't leave your kids alone & you'll be fine :thup:


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## GreiginFife (Oct 15, 2013)

Ethan said:



			Sorry if you don't like it. Your right to do so. Hate to see facts get in the way of your rant. It is simply the case that SS do not investigate every injured child. If you believe that they do, please provide evidence. Big brain not needed to know that, although some common sense would help. 

By the way putting stuff in CAPITALS does not make a point any more meaningful.
		
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Nowhere did I say I thought they did, I was pointing out the case os someone who is being questioned due to am accident that someone feels he could have avoided.
Doesnt matter whether I like it, he likes it or Worzel Gummige likes it, its happening to him so it isnt nonsense as you state. So let me think about those facts yiu seem to think are  getting on the way, he went to hospital with his daughter, told them what happened and now Social Services are paying him a visit... yep, check, all facts present and correct.


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## LIG (Oct 15, 2013)

Am I reading this correctly?    The parents left their children alone... *in another building*... to have dinner with friends at a restaurant?
And the children were aged under 5?
And they did this *on 6 (several) consecutive nights*?

I wasn't previously aware of the bits in bold, so...

Why couldn't they have dinner in their apartment? 
Why couldn't one parent stay with the children - as most caring parents do whenever such a situation arises?

This is not a 'small' mistake, that some seem to suggest,  it is a HUGE mistake! 
No one in their right mind can believe that it is safe to leave a child under 10 (let alone one under 5) alone for any appreciable length of time, even in their own home, whether asleep/in bed or not.

To suggest that Madeleine should have been safe is a delusion being touted by those who wish to minimise her parents' neglect.
No doubt, the parents are filled with regret over their actions, probably even more than just regret, but I think that the effort being put into this belated investigation could be better expended on other, more recent, cases about which there has been zero publicity.


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## sev112 (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm guessing that they were in a resort in which you eat your dinner at one of the restaurants, and presumably that's what they were doing every night at the Tapas restaurant, not necessarily "out on the Razz".  I presume also that the on site crÃ¨che was for babies or  <2 yrs old or similar, and possibly why they couldn't put Maddie in there , so keep the kids together.  I presume they made arrangements to be  in the closest resort dinner-eating restaurant to their apartment.  
I'm guessing that it was a norm in that resort, as in many resorts where baby listening type services are advertised, and which presumably many international parents take advantage of.
As one of the posters a few pages back mentioned, parents have been leaving their kids in bed in the holiday chalets /bungalows for ages, and holidays still advertise this.
Certainly doesn't make it a great idea however, and certainly after the Maddy case, I wouldn't do it even with my 10year old - she asked if she could do so when we were on holiday in a hotel in Spain this year and paranoid old me said no way.
I'm sitting on the fence here, and given the ages and hindsight, leaving them during dinner certainly was a crap decision, but I thought I'd throw a couple of other considerations is for everyone to rubbish, but which possibly go towards explaining some of their logic


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

sev112 said:



			I'm guessing that they were in a resort in which you eat your dinner at one of the restaurants, and presumably that's what they were doing every night at the Tapas restaurant, not necessarily "out on the Razz".  I presume also that the on site crÃ¨che was for babies or  <2 yrs old or similar, and possibly why they couldn't put Maddie in there , so keep the kids together.  I presume they made arrangements to be  in the closest resort dinner-eating restaurant to their apartment.  
I'm guessing that it was a norm in that resort, as in many resorts where baby listening type services are advertised, and which presumably many international parents take advantage of.
As one of the posters a few pages back mentioned, parents have been leaving their kids in bed in the holiday chalets /bungalows for ages, and holidays still advertise this.
Certainly doesn't make it a great idea however, and certainly after the Maddy case, I wouldn't do it even with my 10year old - she asked if she could do so when we were on holiday in a hotel in Spain this year and paranoid old me said no way.
I'm sitting on the fence here, and given the ages and hindsight, leaving them during dinner certainly was a crap decision, but I thought I'd throw a couple of other considerations is for everyone to rubbish, but which possibly go towards explaining some of their logic
		
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I'd call out drinking with friends at 10pm on the razz. But at least they checked on them every 30mins


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## sev112 (Oct 15, 2013)

Or possibly they were having dinner, which involved some wine


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 15, 2013)

sev112 said:



			Or possibly they were having dinner, which involved some wine
		
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On the lash,drinking whilst eating,what's it matter. They chose to do it rather than looking after their children.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Oct 15, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			I found it quite worrying that people don't seem to think its a big deal to leave a 3yr old & her 2 younger siblings alone whilst you go out on the razz. No one that's commented on this thread as claimed to be perfect but come on for god sake. After watching last nights crime watch the only person I feel sorry for is Madeline.
		
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Well said, it's the girl that has lost the most!


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## RichardC (Oct 15, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Is it an age dependent/cultural change, thing here. Remember:-  (Butlins tannoy operator):- There is a baby crying in chalet 147 in blue camp. Where were them parents, probably in the French bar getting bevvied. It was seen as ok in the 50/60/70's. Just a thought.
		
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It was also seen as OK to smack your child back then, do people still do that?


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## bozza (Oct 15, 2013)

Another thing that i thought that was a little strange was that they said on the news today that the e-fits they showed last night for the first time they had 5 years ago but didn't think they were significant.

Surely any clue, evidence that leads to solving this is significant so why decide 5 years later it now is?


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## wrighty1874 (Oct 15, 2013)

You're bang on Hogan.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that you are wrong on all counts.  

1) I do not know numbers but I suspect that there are very few if any current missing young UK children for whom there is not an active 'hunt';
2) Even consideration of apportioning blame to the parents is heartless and lacking in humanity; to use that as a part-rationale for being 'fed-up' and that we shouldn't bother with the case any longer is frankly pretty disgraceful
3) By raising a 'value for public money' argument - well...

And after all - what does it matter to you...you have not lost your child - your arguments just reek of spitefulness I'm afraid - you won't like that being said but I am afraid it is true.  You may try and dress it up as being 'pragmatic' but I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me.  Happy to be shot down if others think I am way off beam.
		
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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

therod said:



			O

Maybe they should come and ask you. You do seem to be well informed...oh wait it's a gut feeling. They look shifty them mcanns 

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I wouldn't refuse to answer 48 questions about the case...


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## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I wouldn't refuse to answer 48 questions about the case...
		
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Fortunately, you don't know what you'd do. Or what the McCann's were advised to do. Or we're you present at the process?


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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Fortunately, you don't know what you'd do. Or what the McCann's were advised to do. Or we're you present at the process?
		
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I know for a fact I wouldn't refuse to answer 48 questions that might help find my children. 

If you truly believe I need to be in that situation to know, then more fool you.

I wouldn't refuse. I'd answer everything.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			I know for a fact I wouldn't refuse to answer 48 questions that might help find my children. 

If you truly believe I need to be in that situation to know, then more fool you.

I wouldn't refuse. I'd answer everything.
		
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And if the police had stopped looking for your child, named you the prime suspect and started trying to pin the blame on you.... Still answering everything?


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## In_The_Rough (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			And if the police had stopped looking for your child, named you the prime suspect and started trying to pin the blame on you.... Still answering everything?
		
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Correct this is more than likely why nothing was answered by her. Also she had a lawyer present I think so she will have been told to say nothing. Nothing sinister at all in this


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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			And if the police had stopped looking for your child, named you the prime suspect and started trying to pin the blame on you.... Still answering everything?
		
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Yes. Absolutely. 

What kind of sick mind thinks of trying to clear themselves before trying to find their child? :/


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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Correct this is more than likely why nothing was answered by her. Also she had a lawyer present I think so she will have been told to say nothing. Nothing sinister at all in this
		
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Wow. That is beyond defence.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 15, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			And if the police had stopped looking for your child, named you the prime suspect and started trying to pin the blame on you.... Still answering everything?
		
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Yep and answering them even more quickly than before so that the police can eliminate me as a suspect and get their focus back onto whoever is actually responsible for the crime.


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## In_The_Rough (Oct 15, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Wow. That is beyond defence.
		
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Not really as FD said she had been named a suspect by the Portuguese buffoons who were leading the investigation so to stop them trying to pin the blame/stitch her up whatever you wish to call it she said nothing probably on her lawyers advice. Seems straightforward to me.


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## Kellfire (Oct 15, 2013)

In_The_Rough said:



			Not really as FD said she had been named a suspect by the Portuguese buffoons who were leading the investigation so to stop them trying to pin the blame/stitch her up whatever you wish to call it she said nothing probably on her lawyers advice. Seems straightforward to me.
		
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If I was named a suspect it would never stop me trying to find my child. Anyone who would is absolute scum imo.


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## In_The_Rough (Oct 15, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			If I was named a suspect it would never stop me trying to find my child. Anyone who would is absolute scum imo.
		
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Agree it would not me either which is what the McCanns have been doing for the last few years is it not, hence various appeals and going to the UK government and other campaigns. However I can totally see why she did not answer the Portuguese Polices questions as it seemed they had decided she was involved somehow and I have to say I trust foreign Police forces even less than ours and that is saying something. I have had dealings with the Spanish and Portuguese police before and they were the pits.


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## mikee247 (Oct 16, 2013)

triple_bogey said:



			Correct, once in a blue moon. NOT 6 nights in a row.
		
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I'm not trying to condone their actions at all here but I do think they have suffered enough on this subject... but it was apparently a Mark Warner holiday who do encourage adults having dinner together in the evening and normally offer some sort of baby watching service...if you remember there were quite a few of them (couples) all around the table all doing the same thing and then checking their kids regularly. Its not for me but you can kind of see why it was easier or them to think it was ok.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 16, 2013)

mikee247 said:



			I'm not trying to condone their actions at all here but I do think they have suffered enough on this subject... but it was apparently a Mark Warner holiday who do encourage adults having dinner together in the evening and normally offer some sort of baby watching service...if you remember there were quite a few of them (couples) all around the table all doing the same thing and then checking their kids regularly. Its not for me but you can kind of see why it was easier or them to think it was ok.
		
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Checking on them every 30mins isn't that regular IMO. Imagine if the kids woke up 5mins after been checked on. That's 25mins for the kids to be scared wondering where their parents are. 
& lets not forget the twins were babies,they didn't even have baby monitors.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			It was also seen as OK to smack your child back then, do people still do that?
		
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Yep, and rightly so within reason, IMHO.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 16, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep, and rightly so within reason, IMHO.
		
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I agree,never did me any harm.


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## Khamelion (Oct 16, 2013)

Nor me, my mam would've often smack my legs, if I was playing up, normally with the warning "If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry for"


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## bluewolf (Oct 16, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep, and rightly so within reason, IMHO.
		
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Spot on again LB. Didn't hurt me any.........


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## Fish (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			It was also seen as OK to smack your child back then, do people still do that?
		
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When I'm naughty I still deserve a good spank :smirk:


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## bladeplayer (Oct 16, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep, and rightly so within reason, IMHO.
		
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Gota agree with my scouse buddy & the others  on this ,


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 16, 2013)

bluewolf said:



			Spot on again LB. Didn't hurt me any.........
		
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Bet it did at the time


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## bluewolf (Oct 16, 2013)

Pin-seeker said:



			Bet it did at the time
		
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I got the full German style discipline.. Stopped me making that mistake again.... Times have changed since the 70's though.


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## Dodger (Oct 16, 2013)

http://www.cwporter.com/mccann.htm


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 16, 2013)

Dodger said:



http://www.cwporter.com/mccann.htm

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I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but that site is written in such an infuriating manner that it makes the journalism in the Daily Mail look half credible. Like every one of us, I have no idea what actually happened, but the blatant misrepresentation of facts on that page actually has the inverse effect and makes me side with the McCann's rather than which ever loon put that page together.


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## CMAC (Oct 16, 2013)

jimbob.someroo said:



			I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but that site is written in such an infuriating manner that it makes the journalism in the Daily Mail look half credible. Like every one of us, I have no idea what actually happened, but the blatant misrepresentation of facts on that page actually has the inverse effect and makes me side with the McCann's rather than which ever loon put that page together.
		
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agreed! what a piece of sensationalist manipulative tripe....(some is completely different from all known reports).....T'interweb is full of such idiots, what was your thoughts on posting Dodger?


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## Swinger (Oct 16, 2013)

jimbob.someroo said:



			I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but that site is written in such an infuriating manner that it makes the journalism in the Daily Mail look half credible. Like every one of us, I have no idea what actually happened, but the blatant misrepresentation of facts on that page actually has the inverse effect and makes me side with the McCann's rather than which ever loon put that page together.
		
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CMAC said:



			agreed! what a piece of sensationalist manipulative tripe....(some is completely different from all known reports).....T'interweb is full of such idiots, what was your thoughts on posting Dodger?
		
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I get that it uses every little detail to point the finger firmly at them but are there not some valid points made in the article?

I've only read down to point 7 at the moment but unless someone turns around and says that this is all complete lies and none of it happened it does make for some potentially scary conclusion making.


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## Fish (Oct 16, 2013)

Swinger said:



			I get that it uses every little detail to point the finger firmly at them but are there not some valid points made in the article?

I've only read down to point 7 at the moment but unless someone turns around and says that this is all complete lies and none of it happened it does make for some potentially scary conclusion making.
		
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I agree, I read it all (nothing better to do with the rain outside) and found some of the points raised quite alarming if factual. Strip away the dressing and repetitiveness and their is a lot of specific details in their, especially regarding the dogs and the handlers statements, change of statement (checking kids) times, change of descriptions, not disclosing sightings for days, the immediate shout of abduction, leaving the twins in the room and going off to raise the alarm! and the lists go on....

I have an open mind but as you read into it, it really is quite disturbing


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## RichardC (Oct 16, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yep, and rightly so within reason, IMHO.
		
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I was only highlighting that what was ok 10-20 years ago is not ok now legally. If someone saw you smack your child and reported you what will happen?


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## Swinger (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			I was only highlighting that what was ok 10-20 years ago is not ok now legally. If someone saw you smack your child and reported you what will happen?
		
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I guess it depends on what kind of connections you have!


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## RichardC (Oct 16, 2013)

Swinger said:



			I guess it depends on what kind of connections you have!
		
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You have me with that one


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## Swinger (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			You have me with that one 

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I'll enjoy the moment! :thup: 

It doesn't happen very often!


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## pokerjoke (Oct 16, 2013)

Fish said:



			I agree, I read it all (nothing better to do with the rain outside) and found some of the points raised quite alarming if factual. Strip away the dressing and repetitiveness and their is a lot of specific details in their, especially regarding the dogs and the handlers statements, change of statement (checking kids) times, change of descriptions, not disclosing sightings for days, the immediate shout of abduction, leaving the twins in the room and going off to raise the alarm! and the lists go on....

I have an open mind but as you read into it, it really is quite disturbing
		
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It has just took me well over an hour to read.
Very,very interesting.
It just gets me hoping that this new enquiry gets some answers quickly.
However in my heart of hearts im doubtful


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2013)

Swinger said:



			I get that it uses every little detail to point the finger firmly at them but are there not some valid points made in the article?

I've only read down to point 7 at the moment but unless someone turns around and says that this is all complete lies and none of it happened it does make for some potentially scary conclusion making.
		
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Fish said:



			I agree, I read it all (nothing better to do with the rain outside) and found some of the points raised quite alarming if factual. Strip away the dressing and repetitiveness and their is a lot of specific details in their, especially regarding the dogs and the handlers statements, change of statement (checking kids) times, change of descriptions, not disclosing sightings for days, the immediate shout of abduction, leaving the twins in the room and going off to raise the alarm! and the lists go on....

I have an open mind but as you read into it, it really is quite disturbing
		
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I think the article undermines itself to some degree as it does, as Swinger says, use absolutely any little reason to get at the McCanns almost to the point of a witch-hunt; however it does *if factually correct* raise some very concerning points about the whole incident and the subsequent investigation.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			I was only highlighting that what was ok 10-20 years ago is not ok now legally. If someone saw you smack your child and reported you what will happen?
		
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I'd smash their face in.

Is that the right answer?


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## RichardC (Oct 16, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			I'd smash their face in.

Is that the right answer?
		
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Possibly


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 16, 2013)

RichardC said:



			Possibly 

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Ha, ha, thanks.


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 16, 2013)

Re that linked article:

It's sensationalised scaremongering at it's best (worst). Not dissimilar from the sort of things being said about Christopher Jefferies over the murder of Jo Yates a few years ago - http://enemiesofreason.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jefferies2.png Picking apart 'facts' and focussing on certain points to paint a picture in the mind and force you into a conclusion. 

Another example is the stuff with the bloke off corry a few weeks back. Without opening up a whole new thread about that, the papers focussed so much on the girl's accusation that he muffled her with a teddy that it was on at least two of the national front pages. According to the court of law, after a full trial, he was proven innocent - yet it's the only thing anyone (well, me at least) remembers about the case. If there'd been more focus on the fact that she'd been idolising a motivational speaker who had given a speech about how she was abused at a young age then public opinion may have been skewed the other way. Not saying they should have - it's a dangerous game to side with the adults in those sort of cases before the verdict - but was just an example.

I'm not saying the McCann's didn't do it, and I'm not saying they did - but that sort of scaremongering is the lowest form of 'journalism' and (I realised this is somewhat different and a bit OTT but ...) not a million miles away from the sort of literature extremists will give prospective converts to ensure they are fully focussed on those 5 or 6 points which may or may not be true. Just after reading that, a few of you guys seem ready to pick up your pitchforks.

I'm genuinely of the belief that none of us know what we'd have done in the same scenario. There's every chance I wouldn't have grabbed the kids as I ran to get help. There's every chance I would have said something in panic thinking it might help the investigation and then realise that it wasn't 100% correct so might have to clarify what I'd said. There's every chance I'd be scared witless in a foreign prison being accused of kidnapping my own daughter than I may not be at my most competent when under questioning for extended periods of time. 

In related news, looks like we've crashed that guys site as it's exceeded its allowed bandwidth ...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2013)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Re that linked article:

It's sensationalised scaremongering at it's best (worst). Not dissimilar from the sort of things being said about Christopher Jefferies over the murder of Jo Yates a few years ago - http://enemiesofreason.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jefferies2.png Picking apart 'facts' and focussing on certain points to paint a picture in the mind and force you into a conclusion. 

Another example is the stuff with the bloke off corry a few weeks back. Without opening up a whole new thread about that, the papers focussed so much on the girl's accusation that he muffled her with a teddy that it was on at least two of the national front pages. According to the court of law, after a full trial, he was proven innocent - yet it's the only thing anyone (well, me at least) remembers about the case. If there'd been more focus on the fact that she'd been idolising a motivational speaker who had given a speech about how she was abused at a young age then public opinion may have been skewed the other way. Not saying they should have - it's a dangerous game to side with the adults in those sort of cases before the verdict - but was just an example.

I'm not saying the McCann's didn't do it, and I'm not saying they did - but that sort of scaremongering is the lowest form of 'journalism' and (I realised this is somewhat different and a bit OTT but ...) not a million miles away from the sort of literature extremists will give prospective converts to ensure they are fully focussed on those 5 or 6 points which may or may not be true. *Just after reading that, a few of you guys seem ready to pick up your pitchforks.*

I'm genuinely of the belief that none of us know what we'd have done in the same scenario. There's every chance I wouldn't have grabbed the kids as I ran to get help. There's every chance I would have said something in panic thinking it might help the investigation and then realise that it wasn't 100% correct so might have to clarify what I'd said. There's every chance I'd be scared witless in a foreign prison being accused of kidnapping my own daughter than I may not be at my most competent when under questioning for extended periods of time. 

In related news, looks like we've crashed that guys site as it's exceeded its allowed bandwidth ...
		
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Bit harsh jimbob? Assuming I'm correct about the few you are referring to, I think all of those acknowledge that there may be flaws in it as an article, but that it does, if factually correct, raise some concerning points, not necessarily about the McCanns but also about the investigation itself.


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 16, 2013)

Blue in Munich said:



			Bit harsh jimbob? Assuming I'm correct about the few you are referring to, I think all of those acknowledge that there may be flaws in it as an article, but that it does, if factually correct, raise some concerning points, not necessarily about the McCanns but also about the investigation itself.
		
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Perhaps - and I don't mean to speak on behalf of others, but have a strong loathing for those sorts of articles which almost disregard any sort of rational in favour of pushing and opinion / accusation. Pitchforks may have been a bit far ...

It really annoys me though. It's the equivalent of 'X' saying to a few other's in the golf club bar that 'Y' cheated somehow during a comp. After a while it sort of stops mattering whether or not you can prove it as everyone in the club has already formulated an opinion based on what 'X' has said.


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## Dodger (Oct 17, 2013)

CMAC said:



			agreed! what a piece of sensationalist manipulative tripe....(some is completely different from all known reports).....T'interweb is full of such idiots, what was your thoughts on posting Dodger?
		
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I have not got any to be honest but thought that I would put this article that I saw out their to accelerate this interesting debate.

Actually here are my thoughts on it.......

Nobody on here has a clue as to what really happened neither do the police either in Portugal or the UK.

The one thing that can be said for is that the McCann's know for certain what *did not* happen.


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## bladeplayer (Oct 17, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Nobody on here has a clue as to what really happened neither do the police either in Portugal or the UK.

The one thing that can be said for is that the McCann's know for certain what *did not* happen.
		
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Well said .. im all for debate and discussion , i have my own thoughts on the rights & wrongs of this case as much as any but only a handfull of people know what really happened that night .. and IMO only that handfull will ever know ..

massive part of me hope she was kidnapped to  order  for a family that really really wanted a daughter to love and cherish .. i couldn't bring myself to watch the programme the other night ..

One thing is for sure for me , what ever happened that night i dont think/ id be fairly certain the family didnd't intentionally set out to create the string of events that have ensued .. Hindsight is a great thing and if we all had a mulligan or two  for some of the stuff we did,  in hindsight id say some/most of us would do alot of things in our lives differently...


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## jimbob.someroo (Oct 17, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Well said .. im all for debate and discussion , i have my own thoughts on the rights & wrongs of this case as much as any but only a handfull of people know what really happened that night .. and IMO only that handfull will ever know ..

massive part of me hope she was kidnapped to  order  for a family that really really wanted a daughter to love and cherish .. i couldn't bring myself to watch the programme the other night ..

One thing is for sure for me , what ever happened that night i dont think/ id be fairly certain the family didnd't intentionally set out to create the string of events that have ensued .. Hindsight is a great thing and if we all had a mulligan or two  for some of the stuff we did,  in hindsight id say some/most of us would do alot of things in our lives differently...
		
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Well said :thup:


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