# Shaft Comparison



## Coffey (Nov 27, 2017)

So I am looking at changing my driver shaft as I had a hit of a few in AG and they seemed to be bringing my spin rate down and giving me a much better flight.

Currently I have a 2016 M1 which is set to 11.5 degrees and has the weight fully back. The shaft is a 60g Kuro Kage stiff and when on my pro's Trackman, spin was around the 3k mark.

When in AG I tried a 2017 M1 and M2 with Project X Hzrdus Yellow 6.0 (63g) and the Aldila Rogue Silver in stiff (I believe this was the 70g version). The M1 was setup exactly the same as my current M1 and the M2 was 10.5 degrees. Spin rates were around the 2k mark.

The numbers showed that the M1 with the Project X shaft was giving about 10/15 yards more carry but I wasn't hitting the ball too great to be honest.

Has anyone any experience in the Project X Hzrdus Yellow and Black? Or the Aldila Rogue Silver? Or even the Diamana D+?

Understand that taking the loft of the driver down slightly and also bringing the weight forward would reduce the spin slightly and lower the flight.

What affects the ball flight more, the shaft or the head setup?

How much does shaft weight affect spin rates and dispersion?

I would love to be able to go and try all of these for a few hours but currently, that is not really an option.

Sorry for rambling on and asking loads of questions but just looking for any help or info really!


----------



## fundy (Nov 27, 2017)

i have the 70g rogue silver in my M1, definitely a low spin shaft and very stable but still launches at a decent height. I have always used heavy low spin shafts and this does the job nicely (albeit a little less feedback than the Matrix i had in previous driver). The diamana is also a decent enough shaft, not sure why ive always preferred it in fairway or hybrids than the driver, felt a bit harsh when i tried it in the driver. Never tried the hzrdus


----------



## Coffey (Nov 27, 2017)

fundy said:



			i have the 70g rogue silver in my M1, definitely a low spin shaft and very stable but still launches at a decent height. I have always used heavy low spin shafts and this does the job nicely (albeit a little less feedback than the Matrix i had in previous driver). The diamana is also a decent enough shaft, not sure why ive always preferred it in fairway or hybrids than the driver, felt a bit harsh when i tried it in the driver. Never tried the hzrdus
		
Click to expand...

Cheers Fundy.

I did like the rogue which I tried. Seemed to produce a nice flight with good spin levels. Haven't tried the Diamana which is why I am a bit tentative to give it a go, although it is the cheapest out of the lot and a lot of people seem to rave about it. People seem to rave about of all them to be fair


----------



## the_coach (Nov 27, 2017)

Coffey said:



			So I am looking at changing my driver shaft as I had a hit of a few in AG and they seemed to be bringing my spin rate down and giving me a much better flight.

Currently I have a 2016 M1 which is set to 11.5 degrees and has the weight fully back. The shaft is a 60g Kuro Kage stiff and when on my pro's Trackman, spin was around the 3k mark.

When in AG I tried a 2017 M1 and M2 with Project X Hzrdus Yellow 6.0 (63g) and the Aldila Rogue Silver in stiff (I believe this was the 70g version). The M1 was setup exactly the same as my current M1 and the M2 was 10.5 degrees. Spin rates were around the 2k mark.

The numbers showed that the M1 with the Project X shaft was giving about 10/15 yards more carry but I wasn't hitting the ball too great to be honest.

*Has anyone any experience in the Project X Hzrdus Yellow and Black? Or the Aldila Rogue Silver? Or even the Diamana D+?
*
*Understand that taking the loft of the driver down slightly and also bringing the weight forward would reduce the spin slightly and lower the flight.
*
*What affects the ball flight more, the shaft or the head setup?
*
*How much does shaft weight affect spin rates and dispersion?
*
I would love to be able to go and try all of these for a few hours but currently, that is not really an option.

Sorry for rambling on and asking loads of questions but just looking for any help or info really!
		
Click to expand...

preface all of this by saying the most important piece of the puzzle that affects the spin rate is 'strike location' on the face 

then along with club speed & along with the overall launch conditions that produce a particular 'spin loft #' for a shot - the other main factors in this are the _dynamic loft_ & the _angle of attack_ at impact 
_Dynamic Loft â€“ Angle of Attack = Spin Loft_  & the bigger the spin loft angle the higher the spin rate
as to why it's important that the AoA & dynamic loft #'s are closer together
so why an AoA of +4Âº with a dynamic loft of 14Âº is a whole bunch better than an AoA of -4Âº with a dynamic loft of 14Âº

1.only real ways you can compare different shafts is relative to your own swing & then the #'s each shaft produces on a launch monitor
folks swings & swing deliveries are different in how their own swing stresses the shaft to both have a 'different feel' in swinging plus different launch conditions

2. setting a moveable weight closer to the face - or swapping a heavier weight front lighter weight back has the potential to lower the spin rate given a good strike location
lowering the static loft has a potential to assist having less spin providing the dynamic loft at impact can be controlled

3. where the strike location on the face is + relationship of path to face angle + AoA + dynamic loft affects ball flight more - the head set-up has the potential to play into affecting ball flight
the shaft can affect flight through having a 'shaft profile' that works with the swing motion to help find a centered strike
generally with a reasonable strike shafts tend to affect spin rate to around 500/600 rpm's max difference - off center strike affects spin more

4. shaft weight will affect the outcome of a shot (of which club head speed/spin rate/ball speed/dispersion will be some of the things affected) but more through the efficiency of the shaft profile - how it bends & flexes - to work with the individual swing
shaft weight along with bend profile will affect the 'feel' folks will have with a swing
most folks are likely to be able to swing a lighter shaft a tad faster than a heavier one - then they also have to factor in can they control a lighter shaft


----------



## Coffey (Nov 27, 2017)

the_coach said:



			preface all of this by saying the most important piece of the puzzle that affects the spin rate is 'strike location' on the face 

then along with club speed & along with the overall launch conditions that produce a particular 'spin loft #' for a shot - the other main factors in this are the _dynamic loft_ & the _angle of attack_ at impact 
_Dynamic Loft â€“ Angle of Attack = Spin Loft_  & the bigger the spin loft angle the higher the spin rate
as to why it's important that the AoA & dynamic loft #'s are closer together
so why an AoA of +4Âº with a dynamic loft of 14Âº is a whole bunch better than an AoA of -4Âº with a dynamic loft of 14Âº

1.only real ways you can compare different shafts is relative to your own swing & then the #'s each shaft produces on a launch monitor
folks swings & swing deliveries are different in how their own swing stresses the shaft to both have a 'different feel' in swinging plus different launch conditions

2. setting a moveable weight closer to the face - or swapping a heavier weight front lighter weight back has the potential to lower the spin rate given a good strike location
lowering the static loft has a potential to assist having less spin providing the dynamic loft at impact can be controlled

3. where the strike location on the face is + relationship of path to face angle + AoA + dynamic loft affects ball flight more - the head set-up has the potential to play into affecting ball flight
the shaft can affect flight through having a 'shaft profile' that works with the swing motion to help find a centered strike
generally with a reasonable strike shafts tend to affect spin rate to around 500/600 rpm's max difference - off center strike affects spin more

4. shaft weight will affect the outcome of a shot (of which club head speed/spin rate/ball speed/dispersion will be some of the things affected) but more through the efficiency of the shaft profile - how it bends & flexes - to work with the individual swing
shaft weight along with bend profile will affect the 'feel' folks will have with a swing
most folks are likely to be able to swing a lighter shaft a tad faster than a heavier one - then they also have to factor in can they control a lighter shaft
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant knowledge as ever Coach, thanks!

My SS is around the 100mph mark. As my handicap has came down so has my SS as I try to control the club a lot more. I have a tendency to have a very fast transition, am I right in saying, a heavier shaft may help control this as I won't be able to swing it just as fast?

Normally strike location is not too bad, I can get the odd low heel strike which would be my bad one.

AoA is around +1, obviously with a 11.5 degree lofted driver this is causing a lot of spin loft? So if I could up the AoA to 3/4 and maybe lower loft the driver this would come down?

I also have a tendency to tee the ball rather low, which I am trying to improve, this is helping me strike the ball higher on the face but for some reason is causing me to lose a few more out to the right. I am not too sure why?


----------



## the_coach (Nov 27, 2017)

Coffey said:



			My SS is around the 100mph mark. As my handicap has came down so has my SS as I try to control the club a lot more. I have a tendency to have a very fast transition, am I right in saying, a heavier shaft may help control this as I won't be able to swing it just as fast?

Normally strike location is not too bad, I can get the odd low heel strike which would be my bad one.

AoA is around +1, obviously with a 11.5 degree lofted driver this is causing a lot of spin loft? So if I could up the AoA to 3/4 and maybe lower loft the driver this would come down?

I also have a tendency to tee the ball rather low, which I am trying to improve, this is helping me strike the ball higher on the face but for some reason is causing me to lose a few more out to the right. I am not too sure why?
		
Click to expand...

chs at 100mph then optimum would be to at least keep it & not lower it
while a heavier shaft might but some control into transition there's a likelihood the speed would drop it might not but ....

maybes a better answer there's a whole bunch of shafts with shaft bend profile frequencies that potentially could help work with the transition but still deliver the club head well at impact that are at a similar weight to the current shaft
as to why good shaft fitting is real important could be you end up with a tad heavier shaft but maybes would be advantageous not to - providing the transition 'feel' & control with shot results that were good with a similar weight but different shaft profile

one of the best training aids when working with driver - a can of foot spray or dry shampoo spray to spray driver face in practice to see just where the overall strike pattern is

heel strike will - & a low face strike will - for sure add spin if the ball is teed low that will magnify the issue
 it's far more likely that with a low tee ball most swings AoA's will be downwards which again will add spin - certainly better to have a tee ball with a driver that puts half the ball visible above a driver

angle of +3Âº/4Âº would better than +1Âº whatever the static driver loft is - but the strike location is still of primary importance along with the dynamic loft so the launch angle at impact

if you teeing the ball low but sometimes striking the driver face at impact high-ish then it's likely the AoA is downwards 
losing the ball right then likely the face is open also - so it's face to path relationship strike location & a -AoA
hitting down with the driver is more likely to produce fade/slice/pull type ball flights


----------



## User101 (Nov 27, 2017)

I've learnt more about my driver striking in this topic than I have hitting 60 balls on the range at the weekend, brilliant.


----------



## Coffey (Nov 28, 2017)

the_coach said:



			chs at 100mph then optimum would be to at least keep it & not lower it
while a heavier shaft might but some control into transition there's a likelihood the speed would drop it might not but ....

maybes a better answer there's a whole bunch of shafts with shaft bend profile frequencies that potentially could help work with the transition but still deliver the club head well at impact that are at a similar weight to the current shaft
as to why good shaft fitting is real important could be you end up with a tad heavier shaft but maybes would be advantageous not to - providing the transition 'feel' & control with shot results that were good with a similar weight but different shaft profile

one of the best training aids when working with driver - a can of foot spray or dry shampoo spray to spray driver face in practice to see just where the overall strike pattern is

heel strike will - & a low face strike will - for sure add spin if the ball is teed low that will magnify the issue
 it's far more likely that with a low tee ball most swings AoA's will be downwards which again will add spin - certainly better to have a tee ball with a driver that puts half the ball visible above a driver

angle of +3Âº/4Âº would better than +1Âº whatever the static driver loft is - but the strike location is still of primary importance along with the dynamic loft so the launch angle at impact

if you teeing the ball low but sometimes striking the driver face at impact high-ish then it's likely the AoA is downwards 
losing the ball right then likely the face is open also - so it's face to path relationship strike location & a -AoA
hitting down with the driver is more likely to produce fade/slice/pull type ball flights
		
Click to expand...

Thanks again Coach.

Off to the range tonight with my foot spray and alignment sticks. I will work on teeing the ball higher and therefore trying to increase AoA. I would say at the moment, 1/4 of the ball would be above the driver head, maybe slightly less. So will work on this for now and see how I get on.


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2017)

I suppose the main advantage with all these heads now having the fast fit adapters is you can tinker around and try different things.

I have a  the same sort of Club Head Speed as you, but anything that was rec for my CHS rarely worked for me after i'd coughed up.So bought of Ebay and here different shafts i fancied trying, i had 8 shafts for the same head at one point, went on a trackman thingy and whittled it down to the one that worked the best using real balls. i have a fast transition too and found i could get away with much stiffer that would be rec just from the numbers.


----------



## duncan mackie (Nov 28, 2017)

Going back to the original post - what was your spin rate using your current shaft in the 2017 heads?

Are you planning to change the head as well?  There are significant differences between them which is why the 2017 heads are paired with heavier shafts across the flex range.

For spin, and the reasons explained by the coach so eloquently, it's also worth trying different tee heights and seeing if there's a difference. I used pink castle height for years with burners and SLDR  but orange gives me a better result with the m2 (on course - can't quote stats!). Whether it influences my set up and swing, or whether it's a function of the impact point of the club face is also hard to be definitive about but, on balance, I believe it's the former.


----------



## Coffey (Nov 28, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			I suppose the main advantage with all these heads now having the fast fit adapters is you can tinker around and try different things.

I have a  the same sort of Club Head Speed as you, but anything that was rec for my CHS rarely worked for me after i'd coughed up.So bought of Ebay and here different shafts i fancied trying, i had 8 shafts for the same head at one point, went on a trackman thingy and whittled it down to the one that worked the best using real balls. i have a fast transition too and found i could get away with much stiffer that would be rec just from the numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah understand a fitting would be best.

I have been avoiding the X stiff shafts but maybe it would be worth a go. Need to try some to see what is best.


----------



## Coffey (Nov 28, 2017)

duncan mackie said:



			Going back to the original post - what was your spin rate using your current shaft in the 2017 heads?

Are you planning to change the head as well?  There are significant differences between them which is why the 2017 heads are paired with heavier shafts across the flex range.

For spin, and the reasons explained by the coach so eloquently, it's also worth trying different tee heights and seeing if there's a difference. I used pink castle height for years with burners and SLDR  but orange gives me a better result with the m2 (on course - can't quote stats!). Whether it influences my set up and swing, or whether it's a function of the impact point of the club face is also hard to be definitive about but, on balance, I believe it's the former.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't try my current shaft in the 2017 heads as didn't have it with me. Maybe something I should look to do.

I was only planning on changing the shaft due to cost, but my friend does want to buy mine if I can find the whole club for a good price. Which I haven't been able to do yet. I didn't realise there was much of a difference to be honest. I thought the changes were very small.

Yeah I am going to try different tee heights. It is something I have tried before but for some reason, the higher the tee, the more right I hit it. When the tee is lower I can hit a nice draw, when the tee is higher I lose the ball to the right. It is something I really need to work on.


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2017)

Coffey said:



			Yeah understand a fitting would be best.

I have been avoiding the X stiff shafts but maybe it would be worth a go. Need to try some to see what is best.
		
Click to expand...

i didn't have a fitting, just used a GC2 thing and compared the shafts i already had. the one that worked the best for me, would prob have never come up in a fitting.


----------



## Coffey (Nov 28, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			i didn't have a fitting, just used a GC2 thing and compared the shafts i already had. the one that worked the best for me, would prob have never come up in a fitting.
		
Click to expand...

Ahh okay, I may go down the same route.

What shaft did you end up with, if you dont mind me asking?


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 28, 2017)

Coffey said:



			Ahh okay, I may go down the same route.

What shaft did you end up with, if you dont mind me asking?
		
Click to expand...

I won't be able to give you numbers as such. 

I originally had an M1 430
Stock shaft Fujikara pro 65 stiff
Adila tour green
Adila rogue black 60g
adila Rogue silver 70 g
Motore Speeder 65g
Motore speeder 60x
Matrix White Tie 
Bimatrix black

went to narrow this down 70 silver was what i used the most.

all where much of a muchness with the matrix white tie the worst. My mate who's machine it is said try the m2 head, which i did and all those where all about the same except the white tie.

in the M2 head it had less spin but 1000 rev and went 15 yards further carry... so then had to buy and M2 head 

but flogged all the others no problem and the M1, though i still have the 70g Rogue silver


----------



## Coffey (Nov 29, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			I won't be able to give you numbers as such. 

I originally had an M1 430
Stock shaft Fujikara pro 65 stiff
Adila tour green
Adila rogue black 60g
adila Rogue silver 70 g
Motore Speeder 65g
Motore speeder 60x
Matrix White Tie 
Bimatrix black

went to narrow this down 70 silver was what i used the most.

all where much of a muchness with the matrix white tie the worst. My mate who's machine it is said try the m2 head, which i did and all those where all about the same except the white tie.

in the M2 head it had less spin but 1000 rev and went 15 yards further carry... so then had to buy and M2 head 

but flogged all the others no problem and the M1, though i still have the 70g Rogue silver
		
Click to expand...

Ah very good. That is quite surprising. I would quite like to try the M2 head but haven't seen any with the correct shaft at a decent price.

I have bought a project x hzrdus black for a decent price so will see how that goes!


----------



## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2017)

Coffey said:



			Ah very good. That is quite surprising. I would quite like to try the M2 head but haven't seen any with the correct shaft at a decent price.

I have bought a project x hzrdus black for a decent price so will see how that goes!
		
Click to expand...

I suppose i'm lucky in that i was able to use the GC2 and my own balls and have a pro look in from time to time.

One thing that did stand out was the white tie did not work at all in the M1 for me, way too much spin


----------



## Coffey (Nov 29, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			I suppose i'm lucky in that i was able to use the GC2 and my own balls and have a pro look in from time to time.

One thing that did stand out was the white tie did not work at all in the M1 for me, way too much spin
		
Click to expand...

Yeah that is very useful.

I will most likely as my pro if I can use his trackman once the shaft arrives. And when on the course I should be able to tell what sort of distances I normally hit too and see if there is any difference. 

Looking forward to it.

Thanks for your help!


----------

