# potential problem with the new 'flag in' rule !



## garyinderry (May 5, 2017)

Out for 9 this afternoon and obviously didn't take the flag out every time I had a putt and wondered how this new rule will work. On many of the holes the flag lay away from me providing a backstop for my putt. 

This is especially handy on those pesky 3 footers. I felt I could hit them that but harder with the flag in and leaning away. 

Will the new rule lead to everyone trying to take advantage of this?  will it lead to more time wasted? 

If its within the rules and I feel I have a benefit from it, I will most likely end up asking for the flag to be put in if I feel it will lie leaning away from me. 

Fast downhillers I would probably leave it in too from any distance. 

I can see this being abused in a big way once everyone catches on. You hear of 'using the rules to your advantage.' this is one that will be massively abused jmo. 


I'd personally not bother changing this rule. It was fine the way it is.  I feel this could get messy.  You could have the flag being put in and out multiple times while one four ball is all on the green.  Crazy. 


Thoughts?


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## Hosel Fade (May 5, 2017)

How are you going "to feel" it will lie away from you? Look at the plug and socket with a magnifying glass and then instruct someone to put it in just so? Or just intentionally replace it with a lean yourself?


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## Coffey (May 5, 2017)

Its a very interesting point. Had a quick google and found this:

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

It does seem that the flag provides a backstop and would help people putting. I think you could see everyone just leaving it in, don't see much point of taking it out anymore. I guess some people will still like it in, but if it does aid you, why would you remove it?


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## IanG (May 5, 2017)

I agree and have thought the same. They could have a rule that once the flag is out it stays out but that would get messy if players off the green are closer that someone on the green etc. Best leave it as it is it doesn't really cost time too often compared to many other things. 

I'd like to see a rule at least for stroke play that once you started putting you continued to putt until you holed out.  Also that you can only mark and clean the ball once on each green.


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## patricks148 (May 5, 2017)

isn't there a consultation period before this (all the new amendments ) come in ??

this will prob be ironed out once it s becomes a rule.

I'm drawn in a comp tomorrow with an R&A Rules official. I will ask him and report back


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## garyinderry (May 5, 2017)

Its quite obvious how a flag leans.  Very rarely straight up and down.  Thick heavy poles you find at posh clubs stand straighter. 

Most you find at normal clubs lean in a certain direction. 

Currently if i am just off the green i will decide to leave it in if it helps or take it out if will get in the way.  This is just the issue that can and imo will arise all the time when people putt from different directions on the green.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 5, 2017)

IanG said:



			I'd like to see a rule at least for stroke play that once you started putting you continued to putt until you holed out.  Also that you can only mark and clean the ball once on each green.
		
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Treading on everyone else's line in the process?


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## IanG (May 5, 2017)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Treading on everyone else's line in the process?
		
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yep - how often does someone standing on your line really make any difference. Even now they may have walked across what is now your line 30 sec before you putted. 

I think the uber politeness about this we have now is misplaced. Maybe I haven't played on boggy enough greens in mid-winter.


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## Alex1975 (May 5, 2017)

If this comes in you wont need to put the flag back in as it will already be in. 100% people will take advantage, you would be a fool not to.


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## Orikoru (May 5, 2017)

IanG said:



			yep - how often does someone standing on your line really make any difference. Even now they may have walked across what is now your line 30 sec before you putted. 

I think the uber politeness about this we have now is misplaced. Maybe I haven't played on boggy enough greens in mid-winter.
		
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I wonder about this as well. And golf shoes have changed a lot over the years too - I sometimes wonder if the not standing on people's lines thing was more relevant when golf shoes all had proper spikes on them. As you say, it's probably more important in winter than in summer, where the green will be pretty firm with or without someone stepping on it.


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## garyinderry (May 5, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			isn't there a consultation period before this (all the new amendments ) come in ??

this will prob be ironed out once it s becomes a rule.

I'm drawn in a comp tomorrow with an R&A Rules official. I will ask him and report back
		
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Please do. 

Imagine the rule is in place tomorrow.  How often would you benefit from the flag going back in if it is initially lieing away from you. 



Also practice a few short ones and see how easy they are with a backstop.    We could potentially see the flag going back in the closer people get to the hole. This is not going to save time in the slightest. 

Tell Mr. R and A i said, 'its a no from me'.


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## Hosel Fade (May 5, 2017)

Orikoru said:



			I wonder about this as well. And golf shoes have changed a lot over the years too - I sometimes wonder if the not standing on people's lines thing was more relevant when golf shoes all had proper spikes on them. As you say, it's probably more important in winter than in summer, where the green will be pretty firm with or without someone stepping on it.
		
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You must have never seen someone with Adizeros play on remotely receptive greens


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## Imurg (May 5, 2017)

When I play solo I leave the flag in and use it as a target for most putts.
I try to hit the ball hard enough to touch the flag before dropping.
You can hit quite a firm putt, and therefore remove much of the break, from 3-4 feet if you hit the pin


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## IanG (May 5, 2017)

Hosel Fade said:



			You must have never seen someone with Adizeros play on remotely receptive greens
		
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Damage, which under the proposed new rules, you'll be able to repair....


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## palindromicbob (May 5, 2017)

Already allowed to under current rules.


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## guest100718 (May 5, 2017)

I think you're overstating how much of an advantage it could be


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## Fish (May 6, 2017)

Can this be adopted now in comps?

I rarely have the flag in, I putt much better with it out from any distance, especially on sunny days with shadows at angles off the flag or anyone attending it. 

If I can see the hole the flags out for me, but, we do have some very big sloping greens which if your above them are very scary, could be an option &#129300;


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## clubchamp98 (May 6, 2017)

Fish said:



			Can this be adopted now in comps?

I rarely have the flag in, I putt much better with it out from any distance, especially on sunny days with shadows at angles off the flag or anyone attending it. 

If I can see the hole the flags out for me, but, we do have some very big sloping greens which if your above them are very scary, could be an option &#27138;
		
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sure the USPGA did a trial years ago and said more shots stay out if they hit the flag.
Thats why most pros have the flag out when chipping.
Didnt do from 3 ft though as this rule was not out then.
I think it will cause more problems than it solves.


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## AmandaJR (May 6, 2017)

I always thought Dave Pelz tested flag in or out and out was best...seems I had that the wrong way around - doh!

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out


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## garyinderry (May 6, 2017)

Ive played enough golf to know i benifit from a flag slightly titling away. 

One that it straight up and down i might remove for a makeable chip.


Like IMURG, when i play solo and putt out, i dont always remove the flag for tap ins, i feel that flag stick can help in a lot of situations. 


Yesterday was just the first time i gave the new potential rule change much thought.  How would it work?  How could peoples attitudes to the flag in or out change. 

I came to the conclusion, under the proposed new rule, i may well become a torturous player to play with on the green always looking to benifit from how the flag rests. 

I can also forsee arguments in matches where players accuse one another of not replacing the flag as it was. 

The whole thing could get really really stupid. 

Id love to explain my thoughts to Patrick's R and A man. I hope he gets my concerns across to him.


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## Three (May 6, 2017)

Jeepers, I hope this is never allowed to happen. 
I'm all for constant reviewing of the rules as they seem to be doing now, but the rules around the flag are fine like they are .


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## Bigfoot (May 6, 2017)

Personally, I would rather have it out. I can see more balls bouncing off flags and going further away. Generally, the hole is softer than the flag stick.


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## patricks148 (May 7, 2017)

garyinderry said:



			Please do. 

Imagine the rule is in place tomorrow.  How often would you benefit from the flag going back in if it is initially lieing away from you. 



Also practice a few short ones and see how easy they are with a backstop.    We could potentially see the flag going back in the closer people get to the hole. This is not going to save time in the slightest. 

Tell Mr. R and A i said, 'its a no from me'.  

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unfortunately he had scratched from the comp and his place was taken by another. i do see him quite often though so will ask him next time i see him.


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## garyinderry (May 7, 2017)

Thanks Patrick!

Is this also potentially  being introduced to the pro game too?   

Wonder what their views are on it?


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## guest100718 (May 7, 2017)

flag in , flag out. Meh..
It will be nice to be able to putt out with it in if you chip very close rather than hold the flag in one hand and putt with the other.

I can see it being a cause of slow play though if you have a group who spend an putting it in for one and out for another.


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## clubchamp98 (May 7, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			flag in , flag out. Meh..
It will be nice to be able to putt out with it in if you chip very close rather than hold the flag in one hand and putt with the other.

I can see it being a cause of slow play though if you have a group who spend an putting it in for one and out for another.
		
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I can also see the hole being damaged more often with careless players taking the flag out more often.


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## Crazyface (May 8, 2017)

Can't see the problem meself. If you don't get the ball on target, like I don't and most players don't, it will only effect a say five putts a season, and virtually none in comps.


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## Capella (May 8, 2017)

I wonder how it will work if a caddy is tending the flag. Can he then decide to leave it in or take it out, depending on how fast his player has putted the ball? 

All in all I think it is just little details and I doubt it will change the game much in pro events. The reasoning behind the new rule (which is actually a reversion back to how things were about 50 years ago, I think ... the flagstick out rule was introduced some time in the 60s) is that it speeds up play for the mere mortals who don't have caddies and who now don't have to wait until someone has wandered over to the other side of the green to tend or take out the flag before they can take a putt.


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## dufferman (May 8, 2017)

You know what the biggest change this new rule will make? The iconic "sunk putt" sound of the ball rattling round the cup will be replaced with a "clank" of the ball hitting the flagstick.


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## pogle (May 8, 2017)

Capella said:



			I wonder how it will work if a caddy is tending the flag. Can he then decide to leave it in or take it out, depending on how fast his player has putted the ball? 

All in all I think it is just little details and I doubt it will change the game much in pro events. The reasoning behind the new rule (which is actually a reversion back to how things were about 50 years ago, I think ... the flagstick out rule was introduced some time in the 60s) is that it speeds up play for the mere mortals who don't have caddies and who now don't have to wait until someone has wandered over to the other side of the green to tend or take out the flag before they can take a putt.
		
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This is another aspect of the proposed rule that I'm concerned about. If you have the flagstick attended then it should be removed to prevent the ball striking it - as now.  However if the ball does strike the flagstick, then whether there's a penalty or not depends on whether it was accidental - flagstick gets stuck in hole, flagstick attender gets distracted - in which case there is no penalty, or whether there's a deliberate act - ball hit too hard and flagstick left to try to stop it - in which case there is a penalty.

This is going to add more confusion to players - "it's now okay to leave the flag in so it must be okay to just let the ball hit the flag while it's attended, right?".


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## Orikoru (May 8, 2017)

pogle said:



			This is another aspect of the proposed rule that I'm concerned about. If you have the flagstick attended then it should be removed to prevent the ball striking it - as now.  However if the ball does strike the flagstick, then whether there's a penalty or not depends on whether it was accidental - flagstick gets stuck in hole, flagstick attender gets distracted - in which case there is no penalty, or whether there's a deliberate act - ball hit too hard and flagstick left to try to stop it - in which case there is a penalty.

This is going to add more confusion to players - "it's now okay to leave the flag in so it must be okay to just let the ball hit the flag while it's attended, right?".
		
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But if the flag is in and you intend for it to stay in, why would you tend it at all?? Surely to tend the flag is to have the intention of pulling it out when the ball gets near. So you would never tend the flag and then not bother pulling it out, or you're just wasting your time.


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## patricks148 (May 8, 2017)

TBH i can't see it being a problem. Who in there right mind is going to leave a flag in for a 10 ft putt??.

it will help i'm sure and speed up play. for instance two players, one player on the green but 50ft away, the other 10 ft but off the green and having to chip the ball. player B has to attend the flag for player A,  they then have to then go back and chip their ball. under the new rules both can just play.


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## garyinderry (May 8, 2017)

Don't say I didn't warn you guys. 

When people work out how much better it is to have the flag in on dowbhill putts it will become a right pain in the behind.


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## Imurg (May 8, 2017)

I can see it being a right pain when the first to putt wants the flag in then the second to putt wants it out then the 3rd to putt wants it in then the 4th to putt wants it out...&#128552;
All miss by 3 feet and the merry-go-round starts again


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## Liverbirdie (May 8, 2017)

Personally, in case this does become a problem, they should issue a standard instruction, based on length.

You can putt with the flag in, if it is more than one flag length away.

Most, in bounce games, will just use common sense, and if someone doesn't agree on if it is in or out of that range can whiz the flag out, lie it down quickly to test if it is near enough, or not.

That way people can putt with the flag in from approx. 6-7 foot away, to save time. If within 6-7 foot, they have to putt as normal.:thup:


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## dufferman (May 8, 2017)

Is anyone going to say it's better to putt with the flag out? I can't see a negative impact of putting with the flag in?


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## garyinderry (Jan 1, 2019)

Well thought it was time to dig out this thread as it was the first time we played a comp (non qualifying) with the new flag rule.

I won't bore you all with every shot will talk about what I did personally on the green.

1st - pitch to 1 foot. Flag in tap in
2nd - flag out 7 footer. Missed. Tap in no flag.
3rd - flag out 2 footer down hill
4th - flag in 7 footer downhill. Flag leaning a little left and away from me. Felt and looked good. left it in.
5th- tap in after leaving in for a 15 footer. Flag out.
6th - flag in from 12 foot. holed it. Confidence growing with this.
7th. Tap in with flag in.
8th. 30 footer. Told flag leaning towards me. Said dont worry. Leave it in.  holed for bird. Flag in.
9th. Pitch to 15 feet. Well struck putt hits flag as it drops straight into the hole.
10- chip to 3 feet. Tap in. flag in.
11- 2 putt from 15 feet just off back of green. Flag in.
12- 20 foot two putt. Tap in flag in.
13- 10 foot flag in two putt.
14- 2 putt flag out tap in.
15 - 2 putt flag in.
16- 7 foot 1 putt flag out as it was leaning towards me.
17 - tap in flag out on 2nd putt.
18- 8 foot 1 putt. Flag in.

13 times I had the flag in when the ball went in the hole.

For me it is a clear advantage to have it in the hole a fair bit. We have flags that droop and sag. It is easy to see if the flag will help or hinder you.

Golf for me felt very different today. It certainly was handy to be able to just walk up and putt away. I did ask for the flag to be put back in quite often. My preference was quickly picked up by my mates.

Looking forward to seeing how others react to this. Wonder how will follow Bryson's lead.


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## Imurg (Jan 1, 2019)

I'm fully convinced it makes it easier.
For years, when playing solo, I've left itmin and aimed to hit the pin right in the middle.
Ball drops virtually every time.
Especially useful for those 3-4 footers that many people decelerate on as well as anything downhill.
Having the flag in means you can give it a bit more pace so it will hold its line more.
Playing yesterday with Fragger, neither of us felt the need to have the pin out at all, even on 18 inchers and under.
Unless you're a "die at the hole " putter, leaving the flag in will help you, I've no doubt.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 1, 2019)

With the added bonus of never having to tend a flag again it really speeds up "the fannying around process" on the green.

This rule is revolutionary.


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## Garush34 (Jan 1, 2019)

Played 9 by myself this morning and just out of instinct I always took the flag out. It wasn't till I tapped the birdie putt in on the last with the flag resting against me that I realised that the flag could now be left in. 

Will have to play the next few weeks and see how it goes with the flag in.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 1, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Well thought it was time to dig out this thread as it was the first time we played a comp (non qualifying) with the new flag rule.

I won't bore you all with every shot will talk about what I did personally on the green.

1st - pitch to 1 foot. Flag in tap in
2nd - flag out 7 footer. Missed. Tap in no flag.
3rd - flag out 2 footer down hill
4th - flag in 7 footer downhill. Flag leaning a little left and away from me. Felt and looked good. left it in.
5th- tap in after leaving in for a 15 footer. Flag out.
6th - flag in from 12 foot. holed it. Confidence growing with this.
7th. Tap in with flag in.
8th. 30 footer. Told flag leaning towards me. Said dont worry. Leave it in.  holed for bird. Flag in.
9th. Pitch to 15 feet. Well struck putt hits flag as it drops straight into the hole.
10- chip to 3 feet. Tap in. flag in.
11- 2 putt from 15 feet just off back of green. Flag in.
12- 20 foot two putt. Tap in flag in.
13- 10 foot flag in two putt.
14- 2 putt flag out tap in.
15 - 2 putt flag in.
16- 7 foot 1 putt flag out as it was leaning towards me.
17 - tap in flag out on 2nd putt.
18- 8 foot 1 putt. Flag in.

13 times I had the flag in when the ball went in the hole.

For me it is a clear advantage to have it in the hole a fair bit. We have flags that droop and sag. It is easy to see if the flag will help or hinder you.

Golf for me felt very different today. It certainly was handy to be able to just walk up and putt away. I did ask for the flag to be put back in quite often. My preference was quickly picked up by my mates.

Looking forward to seeing how others react to this. Wonder how will follow Bryson's lead.
		
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Ah well, early evidence that the rule change is unlikely to speed up play & prevent faffing around ? 
If people are asking for the flag to be put back in when it's already out, that is ?


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## Grant85 (Jan 1, 2019)

It will be interesting to see how the pros treat this. 

I feel certain there is an advantage with leaving the flag in and stats will soon show this.

If we start seeing pros leaving the flag in and banging in the ball from 5 or 6 foot, clearly using the flag to hit a firm putt and eliminate any break, I wouldnâ€™t be surprised to see the rule changed back, or allowed for local rules variations.

We will also see most courses, certainly at Pro events, using flags with thinner flag pole at the bottom.


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## Imurg (Jan 1, 2019)

Just a thought...
Many Pros take the flag out when they're chipping and reckon they can hole
They obviously feel they have more chance with the flag out..


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## garyinderry (Jan 1, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Ah well, early evidence that the rule change is unlikely to speed up play & prevent faffing around ?
If people are asking for the flag to be put back in when it's already out, that is ?
		
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There is a bit of both tbh.   a couple of times today we were able to walk up and hit one or two front edge lag putts without needing a playing partner to walk up and tend the flag. 

There is certainly added faff when players want the flag put back in. I was certainly guilty of this quite a bit.   it just means some people have to actually do something rather than stand bone idle, or you fire it back in yourself. Takes a second to do. 

I don't think it will be the maker or breaker of slow play.  we were a 3 ball and easily kept up with the group in front.


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## Grant85 (Jan 1, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Just a thought...
Many Pros take the flag out when they're chipping and reckon they can hole
They obviously feel they have more chance with the flag out..
		
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I think this an error on their part. 

Some pros leave the flag in even if they are putting from 7 foot and are an inch off the green.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 1, 2019)

I think Gary's last post is valid and putting up with it in instead of waiting for everyone to drop off bags and then tends the flag. I still think however, certainly initially there will be issues with players wanting the flag in/out and more will want it out if and when they putt and the it hit the flag and stays out


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 1, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think this an error on their part. 

Some pros leave the flag in even if they are putting from 7 foot and are an inch off the green.
		
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I have tried flag in over the last couple of rounds.
And agree if you hit it hard in the middle it helps but if you glance the flag it dosnt help , keeping the ball out.
I have the flag out as long as I can see the hole properly.
Canâ€™t see this changing.

Everyone will have their own preference this just gives you another option should you choose it.


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## SteveJay (Jan 1, 2019)

Experiments in the US have demonstrated that it is certainly advantageous to leave the flag in when putting. I think in time most players will realise that is a better option and so eventually the rule could improve the pace of play.


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## Grant85 (Jan 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have tried flag in over the last couple of rounds.
And agree if you hit it hard in the middle it helps but if you glance the flag it dosnt help , keeping the ball out.
I have the flag out as long as I can see the hole properly.
Canâ€™t see this changing.

Everyone will have their own preference this just gives you another option should you choose it.
		
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Yes, people will have their preferences but pretty soon we will have actual real stats from real competitons and Iâ€™d imagine this may influence the preferences and tactics of people, both pro and amatuer.


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## jim8flog (Jan 2, 2019)

going back the OP about having the flagstick leaning away. A player may not do this as a deliberate action

 From the rule book
In either case:


The player must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 2, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Just a thought...
Many Pros take the flag out when they're chipping and reckon they can hole
They obviously feel they have more chance with the flag out..
		
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I agree. I don't know what the stats say but my view is that you have to hit the flagstick pretty much square on otherwise slightly off centre and the ball will ricochet away from the hole. You have to be very accurate to hit a flagstick that is only about 1 inch wide.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 2, 2019)

My only issue with putting with the flag in is playing a windy links I don't fancy the distraction of the flag blowing around and flapping while I'm setting up for my putt and would prefer someone holding the flag to remove that distraction.

Calm day no problem.


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## turkish (Jan 2, 2019)

I actually didnâ€™t think of the flag in then out then in then our scenario and canâ€™t believe the USGA and R&A didnâ€™t consider it could have opposite effect of what they intended.

I played yesterday and noticed a leaning flag scenario- if you putted with it facing it literally could not drop at the front of the cup as not enough space... obvious a big advantage if facing away from you. 

Think they need to say when itâ€™s out it needs to remain out but will cause further issues with people wanting in maybe having to play out of turn. Then there would be matchplay issues.


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## Garush34 (Jan 2, 2019)

turkish said:



			I actually didnâ€™t think of the flag in then out then in then our scenario and canâ€™t believe the USGA and R&A didnâ€™t consider it could have opposite effect of what they intended.

I played yesterday and noticed a leaning flag scenario- if you putted with it facing it literally could not drop at the front of the cup as not enough space... obvious a big advantage if facing away from you.

*Think they need to say when itâ€™s out it needs to remain out but will cause further issues with people wanting in maybe having to play out of turn.* Then there would be matchplay issues.
		
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Rule 5.6b states that players should play "ready golf" in a safe and responsible way. So players should be taking this into account, so if a mix of players want it in then let them play first no matter who is closer.


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## turkish (Jan 2, 2019)

I understand ready golf but that doesnâ€™t take away from what Iâ€™ve said. There will still be a lot of instances of flag in and flag out then back in.

The 2 rules arenâ€™t intertwined so you might get people closer saying they arenâ€™t ready so reverts back to furthest away.

Will be interested to see but just think it might get messy and no quicker


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

Garush34 said:



			Rule 5.6b states that players should play "ready golf" in a safe and responsible way. So players should be taking this into account, so if a mix of players want it in then let them play first no matter who is closer.
		
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Or, probably radically given many other posts, once the first player who wishes the flag removed putts everyone else who's happy with it out putts out, and anyone wishing to have it back in waits until they have finished....ðŸ¤”

I know I'm old fashioned, but it's generally worked that way without issue (or delay) for centuries ðŸ˜Ž


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

turkish said:



			I understand ready golf but that doesnâ€™t take away from what Iâ€™ve said. There will still be a lot of instances of flag in and flag out then back in.

The 2 rules arenâ€™t intertwined so you might get people closer saying they arenâ€™t ready so reverts back to furthest away.

Will be interested to see but just think it might get messy and no quicker
		
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There really shouldn't be.

If the flag is out and you are 3, 4, 5 or whatever feet away are you really going to ask for it to go back in?

If your 45 feet away how many people are going to argue in/out when in reality your struggling to hit the hole never mind the flag stick.

People are reading way to much into the flag in/out scenario.


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## garyinderry (Jan 2, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			There really shouldn't be.

If the flag is out and you are 3, 4, 5 or whatever feet away are you really going to ask for it to go back in?

If your 45 feet away how many people are going to argue in/out when in reality your struggling to hit the hole never mind the flag stick.

People are reading way to much into the flag in/out scenario.
		
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The time I save lag putting with the flag in can be used to put the flag in for my 3 foot down hiller if I so wish. 

Takes literally a second or two to put back in.  No fuss.


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## Garush34 (Jan 2, 2019)

turkish said:



			I understand ready golf but that doesnâ€™t take away from what Iâ€™ve said. There will still be a lot of instances of flag in and flag out then back in.

The 2 rules arenâ€™t intertwined so you might get people closer saying they arenâ€™t ready so reverts back to furthest away.

Will be interested to see but just think it might get messy and no quicker
		
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I agree that the rules are not intertwined but both are designed to speed up play, so it's pointless if players are going to be going by the old I'm further away so I'll play but I'd like the flag back in before I do so even though its just been taken out for someone else. The only way to have the once its out it stays out is if you agree that with your group.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			The time I save lag putting with the flag in can be used to put the flag in for my 3 foot down hiller if I so wish. 

Takes literally a second or two to put back in.  No fuss.
		
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I'm certainly not disputing that.


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## Slab (Jan 2, 2019)

I'd wager most of us have been putting with the 'flag in' for years already and we'll just transfering that behaviour and habit from the practice green to the course
I rarely see anyone remove them on the practice green (& we might even see full size flags redesigned so it has the catch tray so when you lift the flag out the ball comes with it)


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## Jacko_G (Jan 2, 2019)

Slab said:



			I'd wager most of us have been putting with the 'flag in' for years already and we'll just transfering that behaviour and habit from the practice green to the course
I rarely see anyone remove them on the practice green (& we might even see full size flags redesigned so it has the catch tray so when you lift the flag out the ball comes with it)
		
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You little tease!


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## IanM (Jan 2, 2019)

One benefit of "leaving the flag in" is that it'll save damage on the greens from a certain "spear chucker" I know!


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## jim8flog (Jan 2, 2019)

As previously said, I cannot see me changing much. The size of the flagsticks on our course are such that that it is more likely for the ball to bounce off it than to drop in


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## upsidedown (Jan 2, 2019)

Played today and apart from a couple of longish ones it was flag out all day . We were a two ball but don't really think it would have  been any different if we'd been a four.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

upsidedown said:



			Played today and apart from a couple of longish ones it was flag out all day . We were a two ball but don't really think it would have  been any different if we'd been a four.
		
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Yep -  and when you are a 4 there's more chance of someone having to head up close to the pin to mark their ball before the next play can putt...who if it's any distance will simply wait until the players hit his putt before removing the flag in the usual way....all very simple and sensible ðŸ¤”


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## Orikoru (Jan 2, 2019)

I don't see the difference. If you've hit it too hard and it hits the flag, then the alternative would have been that it hits the hole and slows down anyway. I see the rule change as a time-saving device and that's all. I.e. no waiting for a second player to go and tend or remove the flag. When everyone is on the green and putting out I expect we'll keep it removed as normal. I'll be surprised if I ever play with anyone who asks for the flag back in for their putts.


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## garyinderry (Jan 2, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I don't see the difference. If you've hit it too hard and it hits the flag, then the alternative would have been that it hits the hole and slows down anyway. I see the rule change as a time-saving device and that's all. I.e. no waiting for a second player to go and tend or remove the flag. When everyone is on the green and putting out I expect we'll keep it removed as normal. I'll be surprised if I ever play with anyone who asks for the flag back in for their putts.
		
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It really is a huge advantage to be able to have the flag in on a fast down hiller.   Expect the penny to drop for most people soon.


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## Orikoru (Jan 2, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			It really is a huge advantage to be able to have the flag in on a fast down hiller.   Expect the penny to drop for most people soon. 

Click to expand...

I don't really agree. Why do you think it is?


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## richart (Jan 2, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I don't really agree. Why do you think it is?
		
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 Over hit putt could skip hole, or even hitting the back of the hole still run on down hill. Same putt hits the flag, and will either drop or stop much closer to the hole. Same goes for over hit chips, much more chance of staying close to hole if hits the flag, and not just the hole.


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## garyinderry (Jan 2, 2019)

It's acts as a backdrop.  

Putting with it in most of the time the other day felt very strange. Almost like cheating.  The ball goes into the hole very easily. It can drop in without even touching the flag. Other times it hits and kills it. 

Of all the putts we hit the other day that hit the pin. There was one that was going too fast. It ended up a foot from the hole. It otherwise would have been at least 5 foot away. I got 2 to stick to the flagstick and hole edge and the rest went in. I had no deflections. 

Overall it's just a hunch. Bryson and plez also seek to agree.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2019)

richart said:



			Over hit putt could skip hole, or even hitting the back of the hole still run on down hill. Same putt hits the flag, and will either drop or stop much closer to the hole. Same goes for over hit chips, much more chance of staying close to hole if hits the flag, and not just the hole.
		
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Is the correct answer.
I find it easier to avoid deceleration with the flag in.
It's also something more tangible to aim at.
I'm going to have the flag in as much as possible


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## chrisd (Jan 2, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I don't really agree. Why do you think it is?
		
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I'm pretty sure that tests have been done to prove the point


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure that tests have been done to prove the point
		
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They proved that for chips and putts hit such that the ball will run 6 or 9 feet past the hole there is a small, but significant, increase in the probability of a beneficial outcome. I found it difficult to discerned what the specific data was for the 3ft metric, the other one used.

Real world data starts tomorrow, and I'm sure you share my view that that is the only thing that matters, and that any advantage will be acted upon by the top pros!


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## upsidedown (Jan 2, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Yep -  and when you are a 4 there's more chance of someone having to head up close to the pin to mark their ball before the next play can putt...who if it's any distance will simply wait until the players hit his putt before removing the flag in the usual way....all very simple and sensible ðŸ¤”
		
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Absolutely and you've got to wait for them to their ball anyway as you don't want the risk of hitting it


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## garyinderry (Jan 2, 2019)

It will certainly be fascinating to see how the pros approach it.

There may be bit of a spilt between amateurs and pros.  They play on slick perfect greens and the clubs they play at have flag poles that are not cheap thin sagging poles like you find at regular golf clubs up and down the country. It may actually help us more then them.


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## Orikoru (Jan 3, 2019)

richart said:



			Over hit putt could skip hole, or even hitting the back of the hole still run on down hill. Same putt hits the flag, and will either drop or stop much closer to the hole. Same goes for over hit chips, much more chance of staying close to hole if hits the flag, and not just the hole.
		
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I would have thought that any putt hit hard enough to go over the hole would equally be hard enough to bounce off the flag and stay out. Maybe it ends up 6 inches in front instead of 18 inches past but either way it's a tap in. I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference, maybe one shot per round.



chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure that tests have been done to prove the point
		
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I would love to see that if they have. Obviously would be beneficial to know for sure now that leaving the flag in is an option.


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## bobmac (Jan 3, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I would have thought that any putt hit hard enough to go over the hole would equally be hard enough to bounce off the flag and stay out. Maybe it ends up 6 inches in front instead of 18 inches past but either way it's a tap in. I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference, maybe one shot per round.


I would love to see that if they have. Obviously would be beneficial to know for sure now that leaving the flag in is an option.
		
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## chrisd (Jan 3, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I would love to see that if they have. Obviously would be beneficial to know for sure now that leaving the flag in is an option.
		
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I bow to Duncans better knowledge on post #74


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2019)

bobmac said:









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Thanks for that Bob found that quite interesting and confirms to me at least it's worth it to leave it in


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## Jacko_G (Jan 3, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Thanks for that Bob found that quite interesting and confirms to me at least it's worth it to leave it in
		
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I'll be playing that video on repeat to all those slow coaches who want it tended. Should help reinforce the message - leave it in!


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I'll be playing that video on repeat to all those slow coaches who want it tended. Should help reinforce the message - leave it in!
		
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Stop it you'll get called a troll for having an unfashionable mindset that doesn't conform


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## bobmac (Jan 3, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Thanks for that Bob found that quite interesting and confirms to me at least it's worth it to leave it in
		
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I remember Dave Pelz did a similar test years ago which got the same results but can't find it


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

Mygolfspy  have their test coming this week. 

Can't believe there isn't a tidal wave of these videos from the YouTube world.  If ever there was a video opportunity then this massive fundamental change in golf was it.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 3, 2019)

The amount of times I've had golf balls not drop because the blasted flag was in the hole and I'd not had the foresight to ask someone to attend the blasted thing drives me mad. I wouldn't putt at the hole unless I'd have some at least ready to grab it out if I'd actually got my ball on the right line.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure that tests have been done to prove the point
		
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My tests show if you hit the putt harder and it misses the flag completely it goes a long way past.


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## virtuocity (Jan 3, 2019)

That video is good enough for me. Reasonably robust methodology, arguments based on empirical evidence and delivered clearly and simply.

Thanks for posting Bob.

Cue the anti-intellectualist retorts though from the 'I've played golf for xxx years and I can tell you...' types.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

virtuocity said:



			That video is good enough for me. Reasonably robust methodology, arguments based on empirical evidence and delivered clearly and simply.

Thanks for posting Bob.

Cue the anti-intellectualist retorts though from the 'I've played golf for xxx years and I can tell you...' types.
		
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Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they donâ€™t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference, maybe one shot per round.
		
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Who doesn't want to save a shot per round? Put another way, if you believe this to be roughly accurate and still take the flag out, you're starting with an extra shot on your card mentally. Which is insane. 

I don't think anyone thinks it's suddenly going to shave off 6 shots!


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they donâ€™t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.
		
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Give me empirical evidence over biased anecdotal evidence every time. Human nature/psychology will sway your memory to remembering the bad luck. 

Although I'm happy playing against people who would rather use anecdotal evidence, it definitely gives the rational person an advantage so crack on!


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

A ball that is kept out by a flag stick has to be one of a number of things.  

- it was going to fast to drop
- the flag was leaning too much and covered the hole. 
- the flag moved in the wind and deflected the ball. 
- ball spinning like crazy at the hole (Hatton this year)


There is enough room between the edge of the hole and the flag for the ball to fit and begin to fall if the ball is travelling at a reasonable speed.


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## Grant85 (Jan 3, 2019)

That is interesting to know there is such a difference. 

As I've said earlier in the thread, given there does look to be a clear advantage, I'd be surprised if they don't review this again - especially if Pros start using the stick as a backstop and banging putts in.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Give me empirical evidence over biased anecdotal evidence every time. Human nature/psychology will sway your memory to remembering the bad luck. 

Although I'm happy playing against people who would rather use anecdotal evidence, it definitely gives the rational person an advantage so crack on!
		
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This is very interesting you either like the flag in or you donâ€™t.
I canâ€™t see you tube vids changing to many experienced golfers minds.

One down side of flag in nobody has mentioned is ,
I have played with players who canâ€™t get the ball out of the hole with the flag in so they take it out just to retrieve the ball.
Or pull the flag quickly to try and get ball to pop out possibly damaging the hole.
Mainly guys with small hands / fingers. Or seniors with those ball retrievers.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			That is interesting to know there is such a difference. 

As I've said earlier in the thread, given there does look to be a clear advantage, I'd be surprised if they don't review this again - especially if Pros start using the stick as a backstop and banging putts in.
		
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I am sure years ago Peter Alliss discussed this during the Masters.
They said tests were done and it was an advantage to have the flag in thatâ€™s why it was not allowed.
I think they were discussing why some pros have it out for chipping disadvantaging themselves.


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## virtuocity (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
		
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The word of this particular video- yes. I'm satisfied with the creator's methodology. 

The fact you allude to confirmation bias on my part, despite you arguing against what is a clearly technical-rational matter (across two threads) suggests that it is actually you who cannot see past facts for the distraction of your own bias. 

There was a time when very respected golf instructors taught players that to hit a draw, the club face should be closed to target at impact.  New ball flight laws put paid to that.  Science informs us, and we must move on, but there will still be a huge amount of quite intellectual and sensible people flipping their hands over throughout the swing in pursuit of a push-draw which will never come.  Your stance on flags is the equivalent.

As long as you're happy tho!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

virtuocity said:



			The word of this particular video- yes. I'm satisfied with the creator's methodology. 

The fact you allude to confirmation bias on my part, despite you arguing against what is a clearly technical-rational matter (across two threads) suggests that it is actually you who cannot see past facts for the distraction of your own bias. 

There was a time when very respected golf instructors taught players that to hit a draw, the club face should be closed to target at impact.  New ball flight laws put paid to that.  Science informs us, and we must move on, but there will still be a huge amount of quite intellectual and sensible people flipping their hands over throughout the swing in pursuit of a push-draw which will never come.  Your stance on flags is the equivalent.

As long as you're happy tho!
		
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Yes your right I prefer my own (bias) experience in this matter.
Nobody is right or wrong just my practice time tells me whatâ€™s best for ME .


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## virtuocity (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes your right I prefer my own (bias) experience in this matter.
Nobody is right or wrong just my practice time tells me whatâ€™s best for ME .
		
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I respect your position.


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## USER1999 (Jan 3, 2019)

I will still want the pin out if I am chipping on from a distance where I think I might hole it. Similar for putts. I just like to see the flag out of the hole. It makes the hole look bigger. It also mentally makes me think I am trying to hole it.

Does this work? Probably not, but I cannot imagine changing now, no matter how many videos get posted.


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## NearHull (Jan 3, 2019)

I left the flag in yesterday for a few putts - but left them short.  I think its the bit between the ears that seems to stop me getting up to the hole with the flag in .  Given time, I'll adjust.


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## HughJars (Jan 3, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Out for 9 this afternoon and obviously didn't take the flag out every time I had a putt and wondered how this new rule will work. On many of the holes the flag lay away from me providing a backstop for my putt.

This is especially handy on those pesky 3 footers. I felt I could hit them that but harder with the flag in and leaning away.

Will the new rule lead to everyone trying to take advantage of this?  will it lead to more time wasted?

If its within the rules and I feel I have a benefit from it, I will most likely end up asking for the flag to be put in if I feel it will lie leaning away from me.

Fast downhillers I would probably leave it in too from any distance.

I can see this being abused in a big way once everyone catches on. You hear of 'using the rules to your advantage.' this is one that will be massively abused jmo.


I'd personally not bother changing this rule. It was fine the way it is.  I feel this could get messy.  You could have the flag being put in and out multiple times while one four ball is all on the green.  Crazy.


Thoughts?
		
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If the rule is you can have the flag in, then you're not "abusing" anything.

FYI, I already plan telling my partners on first tee to leave pin in unless I ask. I play solo golf a lot, and rarely have the pin out. Ram those short ones in against the stick


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## Grant85 (Jan 3, 2019)

HughJars said:



			If the rule is you can have the flag in, then you're not "abusing" anything.

FYI, I already plan telling my partners on first tee to leave pin in unless I ask. I play solo golf a lot, and rarely have the pin out. Ram those short ones in against the stick 

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I think this has probably been harder to legislate for than you would imagine. 

In reality they are making the rule to speed things up a bit and include fewer things you can be penalised for, but the unintended consequence is that it will have an impact on play and scores.. 

Hence why I would not be surprised if we see a move back, at least for elite play and use a form of local rules to let clubs make their own decisions rather than have separate rule books.


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## 6535 (Jan 3, 2019)

All I can say is those who are going to hit the putt as hard as that and the ball travelling at that velocity, in that video, on shorter putts, good luck with that, I hope your putter path is absolutely square at impact so you can hit a pin thatâ€™s less then an inch wide. If not, good luck with the 6ft putt back. 

Like he said if you hit the putt with perfect speed and line, with or without the flag in, it makes no difference. Itâ€™s only when the gallatically insane who hit putts harder the closer they get will they benefit. 

The rule is to those who are a long way from the pin can putt with flag in (whilst his playing partner is raking his bunker and not wait for him to tend) and know that there wonâ€™t be a penalty if he hits the pin, This is to keep the game moving. But the rule hasnâ€™t been brought in to take away a players right to have the pin tended if he so wishes. And if a player wants it tending for whatever reason then Iâ€™d expect a fellow player to respect that and not to be awkward and cause animosity towards them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

I wonder why the Pros take the flag out when they are on the fringe either putting or chipping 

Also when I played the Centurion club their flags are a bit different - three times I hit the flag and it bounced out 

Also I think keeping the flag in dumbs the game down a little bit and helps people get away with overhit putts 

And it adds nothing to the pace of play from experience.


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## SteveJay (Jan 3, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			The amount of times I've had golf balls not drop because the blasted flag was in the hole and I'd not had the foresight to ask someone to attend the blasted thing drives me mad. I wouldn't putt at the hole unless I'd have some at least ready to grab it out if I'd actually got my ball on the right line.
		
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But remember, the ball doesn't have to drop now, any part of it below the level of the green counts as being holed.


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## Orikoru (Jan 3, 2019)

bobmac said:









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Thanks, that was interesting and a little surprising. Quite brief, it seems like they only tested putts going straight at the middle of the cup, not sure if results are the same for one that would lip in at the sides. But it does at least prove that putts that are on-line but too hard are more likely to drop with the flag in.

Even knowing that, I can't see myself ever asking someone to put the flag back in for my putts. I'd just feel like I was being a fussy tosspot to be honest. If I'm first on the green and first to putt I'll leave it in, but once it's out it's staying out.


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## JamesR (Jan 3, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I would have thought that any putt hit hard enough to go over the hole would equally be hard enough to bounce off the flag and stay out. Maybe it ends up 6 inches in front instead of 18 inches past but either way it's a tap in. I wouldn't expect it to make an enormous difference,* maybe one shot per round.*..
		
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That's a quarter of my handicap, so a pretty huge advantage.

...and for Pro's a 1 shot reduction in average scores would be massive


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## Orikoru (Jan 3, 2019)

JamesR said:



			That's a quarter of my handicap, so a pretty huge advantage.

...and for Pro's a 1 shot reduction in average scores would be massive
		
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Haha, that's fair enough. Emphasis was on 'maybe' though! You're right, obviously the pros and low handicap players will eventually be ensuring that the flag is in if it could benefit them at all. I just meant from my own perspective I don't think the benefit would be notable enough to be worth the faffing about.


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Haha, that's fair enough. Emphasis was on 'maybe' though! You're right, obviously the pros and low handicap players will eventually be ensuring that the flag is in if it could benefit them at all. I just meant from my own perspective I don't think the benefit would be notable enough to be worth the faffing about.
		
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It may well turn out that taking the flag out becomes the faff.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wonder why the Pros take the flag out when they are on the fringe either putting or chipping

Also when I played the Centurion club their flags are a bit different - three times I hit the flag and it bounced out

Also I think keeping the flag in dumbs the game down a little bit and helps people get away with overhit putts

And it adds nothing to the pace of play from experience.
		
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For similar reasons to why pros 10 years ago believed putting more important than driving and focus practice in that area, until Strokes Gained proved otherwise and revolutionised the pro game. It's just what they've always been told and consequently their habits are formed around that. 

We now live in an age where data is king, and marginal gains in elite sport are everything. Prove to a top player they'll save a 5 shots a year with the flag in and they'll change said behaviour. 

It will take a while, but as more and more studies will prove flag in to be better, pros will change. The young pros coming through will know no different, and that will have a knock on into the am game eventually. 

You've also contradicted yourself a bit in the above, but that often happens with anecdotal bias as previously alluded to in one of my earlier posts (not to you) 

At that point it will help with pace of play, but I agree not to as much as some hope/expect.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 3, 2019)

I will probably go for flag out as I tend to be more of a 'dead weight' putter, I very rarely hole putts with any great speed on them.


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## jim8flog (Jan 3, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			A ball that is kept out by a flag stick has to be one of a number of things. 

- it was going to fast to drop
- the flag was leaning too much and covered the hole.
- the flag moved in the wind and deflected the ball.
- ball spinning like crazy at the hole (Hatton this year)


.
		
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And add if you play where I do

The flagstick is too big.

When give the choice I.e. ball off the green I have always had it taken out for uphill putts and left in for downhill putts with our new flagsticks the flag comes out more often than it used to too.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 3, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			The flagstick is too big.
		
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A valid point as there are 3 types of flag pole to my knowledge and I'm sure there are differing stats for each type. The thick type (which we have), the tapered type that are thinner at the bottom and the whippy 'bamboo stick' ones.

Anyone seen any studies showing if it is advantageous or not to have the flag in for each type of flag stick?


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## JamesR (Jan 3, 2019)

drive4show said:



			A valid point as there are 3 types of flag pole to my knowledge and I'm sure there are differing stats for each type. The thick type (which we have), the tapered type that are thinner at the bottom and the whippy 'bamboo stick' ones.

Anyone seen any studies showing if it is advantageous or not to have the flag in for each type of flag stick?
		
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Didn't DeChambeau say that h'ed decide whether to leave it in or not based on the pins being used for each tournament?
I believe the US Open uses thick flagsticks (particularly at Medina) so he'd take it out then, but if it's a thinner/more bendy one he'd leave it in.

He'll probably carry out a flagstick elasticity test during practice rounds.


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

All these tests should have been done a long time ago when the change was first brought up. 

Staggering that it hasn't.  


I really do think everyone should Get out there and test their own.


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## Grant85 (Jan 3, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I will probably go for flag out as I tend to be more of a 'dead weight' putter, I very rarely hole putts with any great speed on them.
		
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This still doesn't make logical sense. The video stated that putts at a reasonable pace all dropped, regardless of the flag being in or out.

And there was a demonstrable advantage to the flag being left in for speedier putts. So again, for the odd time you race a putt at the hole, or misjudge the speed, why handicap yourself by not leaving the flag there?

Plus, I would definitely challenge you to go and set up a 4 or 5 footer and putt with the flag in multiple times. Aim to hit the middle of the flag and contact it rather than just drop it in the front of the hole.
I was putting with the flag in the other week when playing myself. I found that holing out from that kind of range was much easier as you could hit a much firmer putt knowing there was very little chance of hitting it too hard. It removed a fairly large variable, not to mention that you could generally eliminate the break on putts from that kind of distance. 

As a 'dead weight' putter, 100% of the putts you leave short will not go in. But now, with the flag in, a very decent percentage of putts hit too firmly will still drop or be much closer to the hole than they would otherwise have been.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 3, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			This still doesn't make logical sense. The video stated that putts at a reasonable pace all dropped, regardless of the flag being in or out.

And there was a demonstrable advantage to the flag being left in for speedier putts. So again, for the odd time you race a putt at the hole, or misjudge the speed, why handicap yourself by not leaving the flag there?

Plus, I would definitely challenge you to go and set up a 4 or 5 footer and putt with the flag in multiple times. Aim to hit the middle of the flag and contact it rather than just drop it in the front of the hole.
I was putting with the flag in the other week when playing myself. I found that holing out from that kind of range was much easier as you could hit a much firmer putt knowing there was very little chance of hitting it too hard. It removed a fairly large variable, not to mention that you could generally eliminate the break on putts from that kind of distance. 

As a 'dead weight' putter, 100% of the putts you leave short will not go in. But now, with the flag in, a very decent percentage of putts hit too firmly will still drop or be much closer to the hole than they would otherwise have been.
		
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Ok, if you say so ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			All these tests should have been done a long time ago when the change was first brought up. 

Staggering that it hasn't.  


I really do think everyone should Get out there and test their own.
		
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Some sort of uniformity would help as the hole dosnt change size the flag should be one size.
Quite costly for clubs to buy all new sticks though.


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## Imurg (Jan 3, 2019)

Quite expensive to potentially have to reprint scorecards...


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## Bigfoot (Jan 3, 2019)

We tried it yesterday but I found that I wanted it out every time I was on the green - so I can't see it changing what I do except for a very downhill putt on a quick green.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would you really take the word of one video over your own experience?
This might reinforce your like of having the flag in.
But for others they donâ€™t like it in ,that dosnt make them wrong just not in agreement.
		
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My own experience tells me that the flag left in is more beneficial that it has ever been a hindrance.

Overhit a bump'n'run - hits the flag is drops or smacks the flag, kills the majority of the speed and leaves you a putt of under 3 feet rather than a 20 footer. Of course I have hit a chip and the flag has kept the ball out but the vast majority of the time its a positive influence on the outcome rather than a negative. We just like to dwell on the ones that maybe should have, could have instead of the bad shots that end up good.

I have even witnessed the most crazy eagle in my life which involved the flag. Playing in a monsoon in a match play competition the person I was playing against hit a monster drive and was only 40 yards short of the green, he then proceeded to knife/thin his approach which hit the flag, the material, not the pole, it wrapped itself in the wet material before falling straight down and into the hole. I doubt I'll ever witness anything like that again in my life.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			My own experience tells me that the flag is more beneficial that it has ever been a hindrance. 

Overhit a bump'n'run - hits the flag is drops or smacks the flag, kills the majority of the speed and leaves you a putt of under 3 feet rather than a 20 footer. Of course I have hit a chip and the flag has kept the ball out but the vast majority of the time its a positive influence on the outcome rather than a negative. We just like to dwell on the ones that maybe should have, could have instead of the bad shots that end up good. 

I have even witnessed the most crazy eagle in my life which involved the flag. Playing in a monsoon in a match play competition the person I was playing against hit a monster drive and was only 40 yards short of the green, he then proceeded to knife/thin his approach which hit the flag, the material, not the pole, it wrapped itself in the wet material before falling straight down and into the hole. I doubt I'll ever witness anything like that again in my life.
		
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Experience is everything imo , but mine is different to yours.
I chip and putt with the flag out.
Nobody is right or wrong just different. Live and let live.

Although when the pros chip and put in these vids itâ€™s like chalk and cheese to the way your average player chips/putts.

I remember one in USA last year where a pro hit the pin with a wedge and it went into a water hazard.
There are lots for and against


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## Jacko_G (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Experience is everything imo , but mine is different to yours.
I chip and putt with the flag out.
Nobody is right or wrong just different. Live and let live.

Although when the pros chip and put in these vids itâ€™s like chalk and cheese to the way your average player chips/putts.

I remember one in USA last year where a pro hit the pin with a wedge and it went into a water hazard.
There are lots for and against
		
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I never mentioned professional golfers. I was also only replying with my personal experience. To be honest I couldn't care who wants it in or out, its the farting about I want it tended that won't be happening - I think I've already mentioned that though so we won't derail this into becoming a third thread on the subject.


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## HughJars (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Experience is everything imo , but mine is different to yours.
I chip and putt with the flag out.
Nobody is right or wrong just different
		
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...as do many folks. I tend to only do that if the pin was close to the edge I'm coming from.

People who habitually do that won't change, then you'll have those like me who will go to the other extreme. It'll be the hokey cokey that makes this slower than what we have now.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 3, 2019)

Putting for me is all about confidence and the hole looks bigger with the flag out so that is what I will go with most of the time.


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## brfcfan (Jan 3, 2019)

The R&A brought in this rule to speed up play, unfortunately it will actually hold up play, and I don't think they actually thought golfers would leave the pin in to their advantage which many will. My farther played yesterday in a seniors comp and one of the worst putters in the club putted everything with the pin in and putted really well, many other golfers will try it and I reckon we will end up with probably more golfers leaving the pin in than not.

I predict that this rule will be scrapped by the end of the year because of the faffing of having the pin in and out.


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## richart (Jan 3, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I will probably go for flag out as I tend to be more of a 'dead weight' putter, I very rarely hole putts with any great speed on them.
		
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Keep it in for your chips though Gordon.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news...lagstick-171304/amp?__twitter_impression=true

2017 USPGA champion Justin Thomas is one that wonâ€™t be putting with the pin still in the hole.

*â€œI just, I truly, I canâ€™t, I wouldnâ€™t be able to take myself seriously.* I just feel like it would be very, very weird,â€ explained Thomas at the Sentry Tournament of Champions this week.

â€œIf I have an 8-footer to win a golf tournament, I canâ€™t, I mean no offence, I canâ€™t really take myself seriously if I kept the pin in,â€ he said.

â€œIf I have a putt Iâ€™m trying to make, that thingâ€™s coming out.â€


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## JamesR (Jan 3, 2019)

If he hits the putt with the correct line & weight the ball will go in, flag in or out.
So Iâ€™d he saying he lacks the confidence to do that? Or, he cares more about how he looks than how he performs?


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news...lagstick-171304/amp?__twitter_impression=true

2017 USPGA champion Justin Thomas is one that wonâ€™t be putting with the pin still in the hole.

*â€œI just, I truly, I canâ€™t, I wouldnâ€™t be able to take myself seriously.* I just feel like it would be very, very weird,â€ explained Thomas at the Sentry Tournament of Champions this week.

â€œIf I have an 8-footer to win a golf tournament, I canâ€™t, I mean no offence, I canâ€™t really take myself seriously if I kept the pin in,â€ he said.

â€œIf I have a putt Iâ€™m trying to make, that thingâ€™s coming out.â€
		
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They should have put Bryson and Thomas out in the same group for the Craic.


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			They should have put Bryson and Thomas out in the same group for the Craic.
		
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I'm really intrigued by Bryson, his swing, his putting and his approach to the game and fact he talks about the flag sticks COR effect on the ball and deciding what to do on the greens depending on type of flagstick in play that week.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

Very, very few pros will be putting with the flag in straight away. 

If its judged on one event, then the naysayers will claim a win. If its judged on 2019, there will still be little change. 

But as the weight of evidence builds up that it helps (and trust me, it will, very quickly) then a pro would be crazy not to take that on board. It would be similar to a pro ignoring their SG stats and going just on what they 'think' needs improving. 

The alternative is that the rule changes back again. 

JT is a good, humble enough guy that he will laugh that comment off when he realises its costing him fractions of shots to the field. 

MGS are soon to release their study, it will be the most comprehensive one out there, and the results will make some people look rather foolish. Other studies will back that up in due course - I'm yet to see anything out there that suggests the alternative.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

You seem very confident that putting with the flag in improves your score ? I donâ€™t itâ€™s something that can ever truly be proved either way

Now I would have thought that the R&A would have carried out studies to ensure a ruling isnâ€™t making the game easier for people who struggle on the greens - 

I expect it will help some - maybe the ones that canâ€™t judge distance and a ball hitting the flag stops it going past by 6 foot etc - all dumbing of the game.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 3, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'm really intrigued by Bryson, his swing, his putting and his approach to the game and fact he talks about the flag sticks COR effect on the ball and deciding what to do on the greens depending on type of flagstick in play that week.
		
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Breath of fresh air.

I like him too.


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Breath of fresh air.

I like him too.
		
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Completely agree. Am going to look forward to seeing more of him this year I think he can challenge for some majors and challenges the authorities and ideas


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seem very confident that putting with the flag in improves your score ? I donâ€™t itâ€™s something that can ever truly be proved either way

Now I would have thought that the R&A would have carried out studies to ensure a ruling isnâ€™t making the game easier for people who struggle on the greens -

I expect it will help some - maybe the ones that canâ€™t judge distance and a ball hitting the flag stops it going past by 6 foot etc - all dumbing of the game.
		
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What?!?! Of course it can be proved either way. 

There will be occasions where having the flagstick left is a hinderence. There will be occasions where it is a help. 

The latter will outweigh the former by a surprisingly large amount, and will be proved by studies. A hugely comprehensive one is due to be released very soon. 

In the world of elite sport, minor gains against competition means a huge amount.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 3, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Completely agree. Am going to look forward to seeing more of him this year I think he can challenge for some majors and challenges the authorities and ideas
		
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Certainly will see plenty of him as he is taking an eternity to play his shot....


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## Wolf (Jan 3, 2019)

saving_par said:



			Certainly will see plenty of him as he is taking an eternity to play his shot....
		
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Fine with me I'll enjoy watching his quirkiness.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			What?!?! Of course it can be proved either way.

There will be occasions where having the flagstick left is a hinderence. There will be occasions where it is a help.

The latter will outweigh the former by a surprisingly large amount, and will be proved by studies. A hugely comprehensive one is due to be released very soon.

In the world of elite sport, minor gains against competition means a huge amount.
		
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Sorry but when it comes to varying methods and studies in golf there is never anything â€œdefinitiveâ€ and most certainly donâ€™t expect any study to be taken as gospel unless itâ€™s one that involves millions of golfers taking part from varying handicaps and pros. 

If you are so confident that this study is that defining then im sure the pros already have site it and you will see what they think of it - over ten years of playing with flag in over winter and certainly not seen the ball go in more with flag in hence why most have the flag out


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

saving_par said:



			Certainly will see plenty of him as he is taking an eternity to play his shot....
		
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Not with the new rules he canâ€™t - hopefully going to curb his extremely slow play


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not with the new rules he canâ€™t - hopefully going to curb his extremely slow play
		
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As much as I would like to see it happen I doubt it will.

Not many 14 year old Chinese amateurs in the regular PGA Tour field for them to make an example of.

No way are they going to make an example of a 'big' name player.


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## Homer (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not with the new rules he canâ€™t - hopefully going to curb his extremely slow play
		
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Really?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2019)

Homer said:



			Really?
		
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I most certainly hope so - no point bringing in all these rules to help the pace of play to then watch certain golfers take forever over each shot and people accept it as a norm


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## J55TTC (Jan 3, 2019)

Whatâ€™s the ruling on deliberately replacing the pin facing away from your putt. On windy days I feel this is fair enough as â€œthe godsâ€ decide but like others I think thereâ€™s the potential to almost legally cheat here


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## TheDiablo (Jan 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but when it comes to varying methods and studies in golf there is never anything â€œdefinitiveâ€ and most certainly donâ€™t expect any study to be taken as gospel unless itâ€™s one that involves millions of golfers taking part from varying handicaps and pros.

If you are so confident that this study is that defining then im sure the pros already have site it and you will see what they think of it - over ten years of playing with flag in over winter and certainly not seen the ball go in more with flag in hence why most have the flag out
		
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Apology accepted. 

Of course there are definitive studies when it comes to golf. Its a game hugely effected by physics, mechanics, maths and engineering. Do you definitively agree that a titanium headed driver goes further than a wooden one, with all other variables being even? I can only assume by your post that you don't, not certainly as gospel anyway. 

Academically, you don't need sample sizes running into the millions to prove or disprove theories. Nothing would ever get done. 

The pros are human, and most aren't going to change behaivour right away - no matter how overwhelming the evidence is they'll want to see it in practice first hand. As I've already said, give it time. You only need to look at other results that disproved commonly held beliefs to understand how this works in reality. 

Again, anecdotal evidence is entirely worthless so I don't know why you keep mentioning it. 

From your comments above you'll probably still deny once the studies come out anyway like a flat earther - so just believe what you want to, it's no skin off my nose if someone chooses to deny science for whatever reason. 

It's going round in circles and there's literally nothing more I can say on it at the moment so I'm done ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## backwoodsman (Jan 3, 2019)

J55TTC said:



			Whatâ€™s the ruling on deliberately replacing the pin facing away from your putt. On windy days I feel this is fair enough as â€œthe godsâ€ decide but like others I think thereâ€™s the potential to almost legally cheat here
		
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Rule 13.2a prohibits it being done deliberately.  But, I guess there is always scope for the less than scrupulous  - "I put it in leaning away from the ball? Really? I didn't realise ... "


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

J55TTC said:



			Whatâ€™s the ruling on deliberately replacing the pin facing away from your putt. On windy days I feel this is fair enough as â€œthe godsâ€ decide but like others I think thereâ€™s the potential to almost legally cheat here
		
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You are not allowed to .


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## garyinderry (Jan 3, 2019)

You are allowed to attempt to centre the flag.


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## Grant85 (Jan 3, 2019)

I think as far as the pros go, they are completely unconcerned about pace of play and have caddies to deal with the flag.

It seems likely we will see most of them continue to remove the pin, but ultimately if there is an advantage to be gained then I canâ€™t imagine that any will keep removing it.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 3, 2019)

Played for the first time with the new rules today one pp dropped from shoulder height won't be the last I think, I liked the new rule regarding leaving the flag in good to just put the long ones without having to wait for it to be tended and saved a bit of time.


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## richart (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Played for the first time with the new rules today one pp dropped from shoulder height won't be the last I think, I liked the new rule regarding leaving the flag in good to just put the long ones without having to wait for it to be tended and saved a bit of time.
		
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You haven't heard ? It doesn't save time.

Fully expecting someone to tell me it is slower next.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Played for the first time with the new rules today one pp dropped from shoulder height won't be the last I think, I liked the new rule regarding leaving the flag in good to just put the long ones without having to wait for it to be tended and saved a bit of time.
		
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Pros shouting at Landry in fairway dropping from shoulder height tonight,
Stopped himself and dropped from knee height.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Pros shouting at Landry in fairway dropping from shoulder height tonight,
Stopped himself and dropped from knee height.
		
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Yes there's going to be a few penalties handed out, would those pros not be deemed giving advice to Landry?


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## ger147 (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes there's going to be a few penalties handed out, would those pros not be deemed giving advice to Landry?
		
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No.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes there's going to be a few penalties handed out, would those pros not be deemed giving advice to Landry?
		
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Itâ€™s not a penalty I think ?  As long as you rectify your mistake and drop from knee height!


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## Rlburnside (Jan 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			No.
		
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Ok but it just got me wondering as one of my pp advised me not to drop from shoulder height today. 

But that's not advice then


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## ger147 (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Ok but it just got me wondering as one of my pp advised me not to drop from shoulder height today. 

But that's not advice then

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It's not deemed as advice under the rules of golf, no.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes there's going to be a few penalties handed out, would those pros not be deemed giving advice to Landry?
		
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 Nor is there any penalty for dropping from shoulder height - provided the player corrects himself by dropping properly before playing the ball.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 3, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Nor is there any penalty for dropping from shoulder height - provided the player corrects himself by dropping properly before playing the ball.
		
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One of my group was a 4/ hc and he realised after 7 holes that he dropped from shoulder height on the 3rd .


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			One of my group was a 4/ hc and he realised after 7 holes that he dropped from shoulder height on the 3rd .
		
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Handicap has nothing to do with knowledge of the rules in my experience.
Most low men know them but not all.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 3, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			One of my group was a 4/ hc and he realised after 7 holes that he dropped from shoulder height on the 3rd .
		
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In which case it would be a 1 shot penalty if the ball was played from within the appropriate relief area, or the general penalty (2 shots or loss of hole) if it was played from outside the relief area. A bit of a b***er, but not the end of the world.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Handicap has nothing to do with knowledge of the rules in my experience.
Most low men know them but not all.
		
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Yes I thought that after I posted but generally most low h/cs have a good grasp of the rules


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## Orikoru (Jan 4, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			The R&A brought in this rule to speed up play, unfortunately it will actually hold up play, and I don't think they actually thought golfers would leave the pin in to their advantage which many will. My farther played yesterday in a seniors comp and one of the worst putters in the club putted everything with the pin in and putted really well, many other golfers will try it and I reckon we will end up with probably more golfers leaving the pin in than not.

*I predict that this rule will be scrapped by the end of the year because of the faffing of having the pin in and out*.
		
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But if it's truly more beneficial to keep the pin in, then more videos will be made showing people this, more people will realise it, and perhaps over the course of the next year we'll see a gradual sea-change in how players are having the pin. So to start with 20% of golfers are having it in. By June say, it's 50-50 and you get the slow play you speak of because of it going in and out all the time. But by the end of the year 80% of golfers are now putting with the pin in, so the faffing is less again - and it will be deemed a successful rule change. We can only wait and see how many people adopt this over time.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 4, 2019)

Been following this thread with interest. And am still puzzled as to where the supposed time saving is going to come from? 

A player will take a given amount of time to make his putt -  lining up, pre-shot routine, practice swing(s), whatever. This will be the same regardless of whether flag happens to be in or be out. So if flag is in for everyone, or is out for everyone, there is no time to be saved. There may be a marginal, few-second, time saving as regard the first person to arrive at the green but I am not convinced it will be anything more than a few seconds on some, but by no means all, holes during the round.. Generally, by the time the first person who wants, or needs (needed?) the flag out is ready to make the actual putt, the flag is already out

Only if the flag is going in, out in, out , on any particular hole, is there any time to be saved. And quite frankly, who plays golf like that? Certainly at my club, it's not like that - once the flag comes out, it generally tends to stay out for everyone. Likewise when I play with mates outside the club. And I really can't believe we are unique or unusual? 

Ok yes, some people fart about and waste time - but that's them and not the process. They will still be farting about regardless of any rule change.


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## SteveJay (Jan 4, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Only if the flag is going in, out in, out , on any particular hole, is there any time to be saved. And quite frankly, who plays golf like that? Certainly at my club, it's not like that - once the flag comes out, it generally tends to stay out for everyone. Likewise when I play with mates outside the club. And I really can't believe we are unique or unusual?.
		
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But think that scenario will now be quite common following the rule change. Those who believe the flag in is advantageous will want it replaced if others have already removed it. I will, and why shouldn't I? Otherwise I am relinquishing the choice to whoever is furtherest from the hole and putts first. However, I don't think this is really going to make a significant impact on slower play. If someone has removed the flag it takes seconds to replace it.


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## garyinderry (Jan 4, 2019)

Only seen a bit of the golf last night.  Bryson and dustins caddy would have been doing the flag hokey pokey last night.


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## Slab (Jan 4, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			The R&A brought in this rule to speed up play, unfortunately it will actually hold up play, and I don't think they actually thought golfers would leave the pin in to their advantage which many will. My farther played yesterday in a seniors comp and *one of the worst putters in the club putted everything with the pin in and putted really *well, many other golfers will try it and I reckon we will end up with probably more golfers leaving the pin in than not.

I predict that this rule will be scrapped by the end of the year because of the faffing of having the pin in and out.
		
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Trying to work out what happened for the poor putter to change from being one of the worst at the club, to having a great day putting (unless he was just having a good day) 
Cant figure out how putting with flag in could be responsible for the improvement unless his problem was that he typically putts everything online but over-hits it by some margin so it jumps the hole

I guess it depends what makes him one of the worst putters because:
If he's online and short it doesn't matter if the flags in or not, he'll miss
If he's offline left or right (even if its dead weight) it doesn't matter if the flags in or not, he'll miss

So improvement due to flag being in could only come from hitting everything dead online (but that's not typically for a poor putter) and the flag-stick either stopped it dead & ball falls in the hole, or flagstick deflects its path preventing it rolling on too far which might usually cause a three putt for him


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## jim8flog (Jan 4, 2019)

J55TTC said:



			Whatâ€™s the ruling on deliberately replacing the pin facing away from your putt.
		
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As already said this is a rules infringement anyway.


Rule 13.2 a

â€¢ The player must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the _flagstick _to a position other than centred in the _hole_.

However if the flagstick is already pointing in an advantageous position you have the right to have it left there and if somebody centres it without your consent you may put back to where it was.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2019)

Just watched the PGA Tour highlights this morning 

Dechambau - my god the guy canâ€™t get any slower - one putt him and his caddy took 3 mins - 3 mins !! A chip took 4 mins - his pace of play is shocking and at time you could see DJ getting a little annoyed 

As for the flag in or out - saw him do it a few times but as the commentator said the ball would have gone in either way - it was funny watching DJ take it out then Dechambeu put in back in then DJ out again - like the Hokey Cokey and the group according to the commentary lost over a hole to the group in front.

They bring in all these pace of play rules and then you have him - he must have looked at his book about 5 times during one putt. 

If they really want to speed up the game - start putting people like him on the clock from shot one


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## jim8flog (Jan 4, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes there's going to be a few penalties handed out, would those pros not be deemed giving advice to Landry?
		
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 as already said no

Stopping a fellow competitor from incurring a rules infringement is encouraged by the rules bodies.


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2019)

One thing that can get in the way of time saving with ready golf and having the flag in is.....
Player A plays to the green first and makes the green but goes to the back
Player B goes in the bunker in front of the green.
As they walk up, player A keeps going to the back of the green while B sizes up his bunker shot
Manages to get it out reasonably close to the flag but on a direct line with A's putt.
Choices are that A putts with the ball there, risking a penalty, marks the ball himself ( but that involves a 25 yard round trip) or waits for B to finish raking and mark his ball.
A could putt but B is then raking on a direct sight line and could put A off....

Just one scenario but it's going to happen where someone is lining up a putt and others have to stop approaching the green to allow him tomato...
You take time with one hand and give it away with another.
I don't see flag in as a time saver, certainly not much of one anyway.


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## Slab (Jan 4, 2019)

Imurg said:



			One thing that can get in the way of time saving with ready golf and having the flag in is.....
Player A plays to the green first and makes the green but goes to the back
Player B goes in the bunker in front of the green.
As they walk up, player A keeps going to the back of the green while B sizes up his bunker shot
Manages to get it out reasonably close to the flag but on a direct line with A's putt.
Choices are that A putts with the ball there, risking a penalty, marks the ball himself ( but that involves a 25 yard round trip) or waits for B to finish raking and mark his ball.
A could putt but B is then raking on a direct sight line and could put A off....

Just one scenario but it's going to happen where someone is lining up a putt and others have to stop approaching the green to allow him tomato...
You take time with one hand and give it away with another.
I don't see flag in as a time saver, certainly not much of one anyway.
		
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I think I follow but I'm not sure what time would be saved or lost compared to the same actions occurring based on the old rules

Time wont be saved on every green but that doesn't necessarily mean time is being lost either


(I assume the tomato is actually a red herring )


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2019)

Autocorrect just sucks......putt out was what I typed
It's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2019)

Imurg said:



Autocorrect just sucks......putt out was what I typed
It's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.
		
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I totally Cucumber with you


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just watched the PGA Tour highlights this morning

Dechambau - my god the guy canâ€™t get any slower - one putt him and his caddy took 3 mins - 3 mins !! A chip took 4 mins - his pace of play is shocking and at time you could see DJ getting a little annoyed
		
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How about this for a radical solution to slow play. Invitational events such as the Masters refuse to invite any slow players, maybe then they would speed up


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## Grant85 (Jan 4, 2019)

Imurg said:



Autocorrect just sucks......putt out was what I typed
It's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.
		
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If everybody did it, and played ready golf it would have a fairly significant accumulation of time. 

Reading the Spirit of Scotland by Alistair MacKenzie... he is talking about 2.5 hour rounds and guys would play twice or even three times round in a day. Carrying 6 clubs and just getting on with it. 

What has changed to make a 4 hour round the norm and 2.5 hours seem almost impossible? 

Answer, nothing drastic. Just a marginal accumulation of factors. 

Everyone taking a few seconds longer with their set up 
People wanting to finish up on every hole, even playing matchplay or stableford 
Most people deliberating over which of their 14 clubs to hit for that second or two longer. When you have 6 clubs, there's generally not much of a decision  
A lot of people bushnelling every shot
A lot of people using trolleys and having to take the long way round greens or slopes
People generally hitting the ball further and more aeriel, resulting in more searching for wayward shots
Everyone marking, cleaning and replacing their ball on the greens even if their ball isn't dirty and isn't in anyone's line
People probably slower and less active and not walking as briskly as folk 100 years ago

None of these things are massive, but over 18 holes of golf, there is a big accumulation.


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## jimbob.someroo (Jan 4, 2019)

We played on New Year's Day and found it helped with pace a couple of times. It's not taking 20 minutes out of a round, but better for everyone when one person is 40ft away but on the green and somebody is chipping / bunker. Allows the guy on the green to knock it up, and the guy off it to start lining up his putt when he gets to the green, as opposed to having to go tend the flag before starting that process. Also like the fact that you an just tap in without having to do the one handed / holding flag dance.

We posed the question "how many times a year do you hole a putt that was tended" and it's probably once or twice? So really, no real need for it in the first place. If anything, just creates more wear and tear around the hole which is particularly pertinent this time of year.

Think it's a bit nuts to start leaving it in closer to the hole but if people want to do that, crack on.

Not something that's going to drastically effect pace of play, but will make a couple of instances a round a bit more logical.


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			If everybody did it, and played ready golf it would have a fairly significant accumulation of time.




			But ready golf might not always be possible.
3 players get to the green. First there is furthest away and wants to putt but there's 2 balls close to his line so he can't.
Plenty of times ready golf just can't  work - plenty of times it can too.
I just don't see any of this having a significant effect on round times.
		
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Click to expand...


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## Grant85 (Jan 4, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But ready golf might not always be possible.
3 players get to the green. First there is furthest away and wants to putt but there's 2 balls close to his line so he can't.
Plenty of times ready golf just can't work - plenty of times it can too.
I just don't see any of this having a significant effect on round times.
		
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Of course it won't always be possible, but it usually will be.

and like I said, none of the factors on their own feel significant, but a couple of minutes saved a hole and suddenly you are taking over half an hour off a round without rushing or running round the course.

And of course, it only works if everyone picks up these habits.

I think too many people have the view that on a weekend match, everyone is going to take ages so what is the point in playing briskly as I'll just be standing on every tee for 2 or 3 minutes?

The mindset and culture has to change or it's only going to get worse and clubs need to encourage all members to adopt these habits.


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## HughJars (Jan 4, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Of course it won't always be possible, but it usually will be.

and like I said, none of the factors on their own feel significant, but a couple of minutes saved a hole and suddenly you are taking over half an hour off a round without rushing or running round the course.

And of course, it only works if everyone picks up these habits.

I think too many people have the view that on a weekend match, everyone is going to take ages so what is the point in playing briskly as I'll just be standing on every tee for 2 or 3 minutes?

The mindset and culture has to change or it's only going to get worse and clubs need to encourage all members to adopt these habits.
		
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Agreed. Can't agree with you Imurg, where it's not possible, nothing is actually lost, but all those times it is possible then you're gaining  a few seconds here there and everywhere.

An eg. One of our clubs slowest, is a glove off/on merchant and low handicapper. He'll walk from green to tee with his glove in pocket, mark card, then put glove on, then get ready to take his honour. He costs a group 15 minutes per round on tee shots alone. He's also never ready to play from the fairway, so again time lost (and glove to go back on again).

When I'm playing with him I'll be right on the tee until he gets the message, and same with any other card marker, glove off/on merchants are not so prevalent.


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## SteveJay (Jan 4, 2019)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Think it's a bit nuts to start leaving it in closer to the hole but if people want to do that, crack on.
		
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Why is it nuts?


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2019)

HughJars said:



			Agreed. Can't agree with you Imurg, where it's not possible, nothing is actually lost, but all those times it is possible then you're gaining  a few seconds here there and everywhere.

An eg. One of our clubs slowest, is a glove off/on merchant and low handicapper. He'll walk from green to tee with his glove in pocket, mark card, then put glove on, then get ready to take his honour. He costs a group 15 minutes per round on tee shots alone. He's also never ready to play from the fairway, so again time lost (and glove to go back on again).

When I'm playing with him I'll be right on the tee until he gets the message, and same with any other card marker, glove off/on merchants are not so prevalent.
		
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yep, I will be up putting out now with slowcoaches still faffing around on there 2nd or 3rd shots

saw a sky golf recap program before Christmas and Rich Beam, commented that DJ would not be waiting for slowcoaches and could see instances where he would just play and heads to the green


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## HughJars (Jan 4, 2019)

SteveJay said:



			Why is it nuts?
		
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It's not, he just hasn't tried it


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## backwoodsman (Jan 4, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yep, I will be up putting out now with slowcoaches still faffing around on there 2nd or 3rd shots

saw a sky golf recap program before Christmas and Rich Beam, commented that *DJ would not be waiting for slowcoaches and could see instances where he would just play and heads to the green *

Click to expand...

Interesting scenario? But I'm guessing that at some stage (next tee perhaps?),  he'd have to stop & wait for the slowcoach to catch up? Can't really imagine he'd be able to just keep marching ahead?. Or could he?


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## jimbob.someroo (Jan 4, 2019)

SteveJay said:



			Why is it nuts?
		
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Because nobody that isn't playing full-time golf has done enough scientific research to prove that it's advantageous, and with pretty much 99.9% of people playing for their livelihoods leaving it in (with the exception of tap-ins and long putts), amateurs doing it from 6ft are doing it to be contrarian.

I'm likening it to climate change. If the vast majority of the world's top scientists are saying/doing one thing, and one bloke claims they're all wrong - I'm gonna side with the masses. And if the consensus of the masses change, I'll move with them.

Will almost certainly leave it in at times when I'm messing around on my own and can't be bothered to go and grab it, but until there's a major switch from the majority of the world's best over short putts, will be carrying on as normal.


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## HughJars (Jan 4, 2019)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Because nobody that isn't playing full-time golf has done enough scientific research to prove that it's advantageous, and with pretty much 99.9% of people playing for their livelihoods leaving it in (with the exception of tap-ins and long putts), amateurs doing it from 6ft are doing it to be contrarian.
		
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Fair enough, but bounce games on my own, I rarely take the pin out, I rarely miss a 3 footer, I ram them in. But, I have an issue when the pin *is out* in medals. Now yes, this could be handicap pressure, but I think not. I'll see how it goes this year. 

Re: Pros - we're in tournament 1 of 2019, and even in that, 3% of the field are already leaving the flag in. The pros (like with long putters) won't change till they see enough evidence. If DeChambeau starts flying just you watch!


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## garyinderry (Jan 4, 2019)

I was thinking the pros may be at a slight disadvantage as they nearly always have strong upright flag poles. Behave.  Lol

Seems there is plenty of room at all times with these for the ball to drop. I watched quite a number of Bryson's putts from yesterday and all went in without a hitch. 

A ball that lips out or lips at all won't touch the flag so it has no bearing on these what so ever. 

The pros main issue is getting used to how it looks. Some have openly stated as such. 

The abused and old flag sticks and cups you find at normal golf clubs tend to lean one way or the other. Not so much on tour.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2019)

Played first round of the year today.... flag in rule was beneficial.  A few times first person ready to putt from distance putted immediately, whereas under old rule, would have needed to wait for someone to attend/remove flag. Seemed odd though!

Ready golf is great. Get to tee first and play . No messing


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## upsidedown (Jan 4, 2019)

Of the roughly 120 putts we had in our 4 ball today around 10 of them were to the hole with the flag in and none hit it or went in , rest were all out. The consensus seemed to be that if you wanted the flag in you putted until you'd putted out or wanted the flag out so no hokey coking


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

SteveJay said:



			Why is it nuts?
		
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Itâ€™s more difficult to get the ball out the hole for a start.
I noticed in the seniors today how close they stood to the hole to retrieve their ball.
One guy left the flag in from 2ft then took it out so he could use his ball retriver on the end of his putter.


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## Wolf (Jan 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s more difficult to get the ball out the hole for a start.
I noticed in the seniors today how close they stood to the hole to retrieve their ball.
One guy left the flag in from 2ft then took it out so he could use his ball retriver on the end of his putter.
		
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I think over the years we will see more flags appearing  on course with the built ball collectors at the bottom to stop this


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			I was thinking the pros may be at a slight disadvantage as they nearly always have strong upright flag poles. Behave.  Lol

Seems there is plenty of room at all times with these.

The abused and old flag sticks and cups you find at normal golf clubs tend to lean one way or the other. Not so much on tour.
		
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I measured our holes today , there is room all around the hole for a ball to fit except when there is some wear and the flag is leaning.
So I hit some putts at the narrow side and they didnâ€™t drop.
Hit it plumb and itâ€™s great , but wait until the greens get quicker and firmer so holes are cut better and I think this will throw a few out.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I think over the years we will see more flags appearing  on course with the built ball collectors at the bottom to stop this
		
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I hope not as the ones on our practice green lean over to much.
They would need a bit of upgrading , but would solve the problem.

But what about damage to the hole, itâ€™s ok with a 18â€ flag but a 6 foot flag in a strong wind or one of the long ones on blind shots.


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## Wolf (Jan 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I hope not as the ones on our practice green lean over to much.
They would need a bit of upgrading , but would solve the problem.

But what about damage to the hole, itâ€™s ok with a 18â€ flag but a 6 foot flag in a strong wind or one of the long ones on blind shots.
		
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I've played on courses in the past that have them on full length flag poles, the pole goes through the collection disk so still sits firmly in bottom of the cup as extra security without any issues of damaging the hole or wind problems


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I've played on courses in the past that have them on full length flag poles, the pole goes through the collection disk so still sits firmly in bottom of the cup as extra security without any issues of damaging the hole or wind problems
		
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I was mainly thinking of getting them in and out .
Wether they would damage the hole at the top with careless golfers, there not all like us!
But it would solve the old guys problem.


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## 6535 (Jan 4, 2019)

Well after today (on my own) I can safely say leaving the flag in is not for me. The really lengthy putts I can understand 35-40ft+ but not anything under that, and especially not the shorter ones. Missed 2 4ft putts with pin in, next hole made a 6ft with pin out, holed 18ft for birdie with pin out and holed another birdie putt from 15ft right to left while looking at the hole and pin out. 

You canâ€™t beat the sound of the ball spinning around the bottom of the cup from them kind of distances.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s more difficult to get the ball out the hole for a start.
I noticed in the seniors today how close they stood to the hole to retrieve their ball.
One guy left the flag in from 2ft then took it out so he could use his ball retriver on the end of his putter.
		
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You should have politely suggested to that old boy that he takes up yoga. 

ðŸ˜‰


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

Haters will hate. 

Played 18 today, not once was a flag tended. In or out was the viable options and not once was there a cross word or a discussion or even the merest hint of wanting a flag tended in our 4 ball.

Still can't see where all the objections and moaning is coming from. 

We have some absolutely huge greens as well.


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## 6535 (Jan 4, 2019)

Some people canâ€™t get their head around Aimpoint either, and we (those who do it) say exactly the same thing haters will hate. And just like those who donâ€™t want to do Aimpoint, youâ€™re going to get those who donâ€™t want the flag in or wanting it tended.


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## garyinderry (Jan 4, 2019)

6535 said:



			Well after today (on my own) I can safely say leaving the flag in is not for me. The really lengthy putts I can understand 35-40ft+ but not anything under that, and especially not the shorter ones. Missed 2 4ft putts with pin in, next hole made a 6ft with pin out, holed 18ft for birdie with pin out and holed another birdie putt from 15ft right to left while looking at the hole and pin out.

You canâ€™t beat the sound of the ball spinning around the bottom of the cup from them kind of distances.
		
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What happened on the two 4 foot putts you missed?   Did the flag knock them out?


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			What happened on the two 4 foot putts you missed?   Did the flag knock them out?
		
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His aimpoint was off!

ðŸ˜œ


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm hoping putting with the flag in is going to make the game attractive to a younger demographic 

Hope to see the result of some studies into this before the year end.


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## garyinderry (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			His aimpoint was off!

ðŸ˜œ
		
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Cheeky  lol


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Cheeky  lol
		
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One good dig deserves a retort.

Flag in, flag out. Each to their own. ðŸ‘


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## 6535 (Jan 4, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			What happened on the two 4 foot putts you missed?   Did the flag knock them out?
		
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I just didnâ€™t like the look of it tbh. Even tho I was on my own their was a sense of it didnâ€™t mean anything with the flag in. More like â€˜oh itâ€™s only a knockaboutâ€™ a bit carefree. Whereas when the flag is out I get the sense of it means something. Like the 3 I made when the flag was out, 6ft, Aimpoint worked, 15ft Aimpoint worked and 18ft......yep you guessed it, Aimpoint again.

Maybe, NOT being elitist here, higher hc players like that feeling where putting with the flag in gives a sense of it doesnâ€™t mean much! Just my opinion.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Haters will hate. 

Played 18 today, not once was a flag tended. In or out was the viable options and not once was there a cross word or a discussion or even the merest hint of wanting a flag tended in our 4 ball.

Still can't see where all the objections and moaning is coming from. 

We have some absolutely huge greens as well.
		
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Do you like Marmite?


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## bigslice (Jan 4, 2019)

Ball going in hole in lowest amount of shots is what us chompers want, same as elitist golfers i assume. Ive played with blind golfers deaf golfers one armed golfers and elitist golfers. Who cares how it get there if u see it or hear it who cares.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

6535 said:



			Some people canâ€™t get their head around Aimpoint either, and we (those who do it) say exactly the same thing haters will hate. And just like those who donâ€™t want to do Aimpoint, youâ€™re going to get those who donâ€™t want the flag in or wanting it tended.
		
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Itâ€™s just a choice !
Dosnt mean we hate the flag in.
I always leave it in from 150yds!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Do you like Marmite?
		
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I prefer honey on my toast tbh.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 4, 2019)

bigslice said:



			Ball going in hole in lowest amount of shots is what us chompers want, same as elitist golfers i assume. Ive played with blind golfers deaf golfers one armed golfers and elitist golfers. Who cares how it get there if u see it or hear it who cares.
		
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You mean you never felt elitist playing with all those people?

ðŸ˜œ


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## garyinderry (Jan 4, 2019)

6535 said:



			I just didnâ€™t like the look of it tbh. Even tho I was on my own their was a sense of it didnâ€™t mean anything with the flag in. More like â€˜oh itâ€™s only a knockaboutâ€™ a bit carefree. Whereas when the flag is out I get the sense of it means something. Like the 3 I made when the flag was out, 6ft, Aimpoint worked, 15ft Aimpoint worked and 18ft......yep you guessed it, Aimpoint again.

Maybe, NOT being elitist here, higher hc players like that feeling where putting with the flag in gives a sense of it doesnâ€™t mean much! Just my opinion.
		
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That does sound like a bit of a mental block.  Kind of what Justin Thomas is saying.  

It's early doors. Not everyone will take to it right away. Maybe even at all.  

Loads more people will begin to do it once they get a feel for it. See it in action. See the benefits. Drops their fears and Trust the science. 

In regards to your point of it didn't feel like it ment that much. Well I have used it in a competition on  new years day. My juices were flowing and I was attempting to shoot the best score I could on the day. Numerous times I felt it best to leave the flag in place. Holed plenty on the day and the flag rejected none. Could not have been happier.


I would not be surprised to see a 360 on this rule so will just go with the flow for the time being and enjoy it. 

Playing a scramble tomorrow at a Rossapenna. Will be fun to see how everyone else feels and sees it. 

It is a huge change to the game of golf. I would be happier has they left it alone. Fun to discuss, experiment and observe along the way though.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

bigslice said:



			Ball going in hole in lowest amount of shots is what us chompers want, same as elitist golfers i assume. Ive played with blind golfers deaf golfers one armed golfers and elitist golfers. Who cares how it get there if u see it or hear it who cares.
		
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Massive respect to anyone who can play golf blind.
Think thatâ€™s awesome, I can just manage with ok sight.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 4, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			That does sound like a bit of a mental block.  Kind of what Justin Thomas is saying.  

It's early doors. Not everyone will take to it right away. Maybe even at all.  

Loads more people will begin to do it once they get a feel for it. See it in action. See the benefits. Drops their fears and Trust the science. 

In regards to your point of it didn't feel like it ment that much. Well I have used it in a competition on  new years day. My juices were flowing and I was attempting to shoot the best score I could on the day. Numerous times I felt it best to leave the flag in place. Holed plenty on the day and the flag rejected none. Could not have been happier.


I would not be surprised to see a 360 on this rule so will just go with the flow for the time being and enjoy it. 

Playing a scramble tomorrow at a Rossapenna. Will be fun to see how everyone else feels and sees it. 

It is a huge change to the game of golf. I would be happier has they left it alone. Fun to discuss, experiment and observe along the way though.
		
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I have done this for years ,mainly playing alone when it dosnt count.
It could be a mental thing if I assume itâ€™s just a knock.
But I have come to the conclusion that I donâ€™t like it.

I would never say never but at the moment I am firmly in the no flag camp.
Each to their own.
And I like a good discussion. Itâ€™s how you learn things!!!


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## 6535 (Jan 5, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			That does sound like a bit of a mental block.  Kind of what Justin Thomas is saying.

It's early doors. Not everyone will take to it right away. Maybe even at all.

Loads more people will begin to do it once they get a feel for it. See it in action. See the benefits. Drops their fears and Trust the science.

In regards to your point of it didn't feel like it ment that much. Well I have used it in a competition on  new years day. My juices were flowing and I was attempting to shoot the best score I could on the day. Numerous times I felt it best to leave the flag in place. Holed plenty on the day and the flag rejected none. Could not have been happier.


I would not be surprised to see a 360 on this rule so will just go with the flow for the time being and enjoy it.

Playing a scramble tomorrow at a Rossapenna. Will be fun to see how everyone else feels and sees it.

It is a huge change to the game of golf. I would be happier has they left it alone. Fun to discuss, experiment and observe along the way though.
		
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Yeah maybe it is mental,  like most things in golf if your not comfortable with it then you don't do it. Whether science has got a say in it only time will tell, I wasn't convinced with the video posted on their findings as it be ludicrous to hit a ball that hard from that range hoping to hit the pin. 
You choose to keep the flag in as the rules have determined that and given you the option, your choice, just like those who choose not to leave it in OR wanting it tended,  the rules HAVE NOT banished that option, only people on high pedastals have decided that in here.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2019)

6535 said:



			Yeah maybe it is mental,  like most things in golf if your not comfortable with it then you don't do it. Whether science has got a say in it only time will tell, I wasn't convinced with the video posted on their findings as it be ludicrous to hit a ball that hard from that range hoping to hit the pin. 
You choose to keep the flag in as the rules have determined that and given you the option, your choice, just like those who choose not to leave it in OR wanting it tended,  the rules HAVE NOT banished that option, only people on high pedastals have decided that in here.
		
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Agree with this especially the last bit ,And I really do think it will cause problems if someone refuses to attend the flag.
But letâ€™s not get into that again.


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## 6535 (Jan 5, 2019)

bigslice said:



			Ball going in hole in lowest amount of shots is what us chompers want, same as elitist golfers i assume. Ive played with blind golfers deaf golfers one armed golfers and elitist golfers. Who cares how it get there if u see it or hear it who cares.
		
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It doesnâ€™t bother who or what hc a player is to me. Iâ€™ve played with them all just like yourself. Itâ€™s was directed to someone who took a post out of context, so now I state what I said as not to â€˜offendâ€™ others. Sorry if it did.


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## jim8flog (Jan 5, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I prefer honey on my toast tbh.
		
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 I prefer Honey in my bed


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## HughJars (Jan 5, 2019)

6535 said:



			Some people canâ€™t get their head around Aimpoint either, and we (those who do it) say exactly the same thing haters will hate. And just like those who donâ€™t want to do Aimpoint, youâ€™re going to get those who donâ€™t want the flag in or wanting it tended.
		
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I have my head fully around it. It's the absolute faffing about that goes on and further slows down a game that is already too slow. And those that I've seen use it (thankfully none at my club), their putting wasnt much cop anyway, of course they could have been utter horse before so I can't judge. But, my review of aimpoint is, get  a bloody move on!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 5, 2019)

HughJars said:



			I have my head fully around it. It's the absolute faffing about that goes on and further slows down a game that is already too slow. And those that I've seen use it (thankfully none at my club), their putting wasnt much cop anyway, of course they could have been utter horse before so I can't judge. But, my review of aimpoint is, get  a bloody move on!
		
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The Crux is though - are you an elite golfer?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2019)

Played in comp conditions for first time today under new rules. All a pain on the greens as two of us were happy putting with it in and one insisted on having it out for everything over 5 feet. We were trying to putt out where possible before he took it out but sometimes we'd be on the line. All a bit messy but round in under four hours


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2019)

It worked very smoothly in our 4 ball today. We have big greens on some holes and when the pin was a distance it was left in. If my ball was at the front, others af the back but further from the pin, I would simply putt with the flag in whilst they walked to their balls. They could then make their own minds up but it meant I wasn't waiting. By the end the others were doing the same.

Once the flag was out it stayed out. Our 4 ball all had common sense and it was either in or out for all. There was no in and out, in again etc.

Definitely an improvement.


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## garyinderry (Jan 5, 2019)

Played a scramble at the old tom morris course at Rossapenna.  Plenty of cold wind about. Thick heavy flag sticks. 

Flag stayed in most of the day.  No issues.


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## 6535 (Jan 5, 2019)

1st comp of the year tomorrow, the flag will be out for me.


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## Fish (Jan 5, 2019)

Iâ€™ve not read back over all the posts, but apparently a Pro has stated dependant on the composition of the flag they will leave it in or remove it, with this in mind, that means there must be a variable of advantages or disadvantages based on what the flag is made of. Will this mean that in the not too distant future all flag sticks will have to be unified so there is consistency for the rule to be equal? 

I prefer the flag out all the time personally and very rarely have it even tended.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 6, 2019)

Fish said:



			Iâ€™ve not read back over all the posts, but apparently a Pro has stated dependant on the composition of the flag they will leave it in or remove it, with this in mind, that means there must be a variable of advantages or disadvantages based on what the flag is made of. Will this mean that in the not too distant future all flag sticks will have to be unified so there is consistency for the rule to be equal?

I prefer the flag out all the time personally and very rarely have it even tended.
		
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The first post of yours that I've noticed for a while, so welcome back Fish.

The first monthly Stableford of the year and all went well. As a three-ball we probably had a combined total of about 5 putts with the flag in, otherwise everyone happy with it out. Otherwise new rules went well without issue. One nearly lost ball - found after 2min 45s (timed), and  no penalty for the first double hit I've seen in months.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2019)

Good example on the TV today with Gary woodland having a long eagle putt

Flag in and not tended (I'm assuming because the penalty no longer exists rendering the act of tending redundant in this case)

If the putt misses anywhere short, left, right or long left/right or online and short, which would usually be the case in 90% of these then pulling a tended flag has zero effect regardless of whether you think the flag in helps or hinders
Hit dead weight the ball will drop regardless of flag (the stats say)

That just leaves a putt hit dead online but too firm... I'd take the option of potentially using the unattended flag stick to take the pace off with the odds that my next putt will be shorter than an attended flag that has to be pulled

He made the putt which he hit a smidge over deadweight


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## patricks148 (Jan 6, 2019)

Played in the Dunbar medal yesterday and we decided to leave the flag in for everything outside 6ft. None bounced out in fact  one of my playing partners holes 4 long birdie putts. Definitely quicker


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Played in the Dunbar medal yesterday and we decided to leave the flag in for everything outside 6ft. None bounced out in fact  one of my playing partners holes 4 long birdie putts. Definitely quicker
		
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I donâ€™t understand how it could be slower tbh. Anyone who used to have it attended could just leave it in because whatâ€™s the difference (not interested in the science, just talking about someone would be there to take flag out.. wouldnâ€™t affect anyoneâ€™s â€œeyeâ€) and then someone who putts with it out can still have it out 

Donâ€™t get me wrong if someone wants it attended Iâ€™m not going to not do that itâ€™s just seems like they have installed a rule that either speeds up (in line with ready golf) or simplifies the game.. embrace it and bet within a few weeks people wonâ€™t even remember the old way!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I donâ€™t understand how it could be slower tbh.* Anyone who used to have it attended could just leave it in because whatâ€™s the difference (not interested in the science, just talking about someone would be there to take flag out.. wouldnâ€™t affect anyoneâ€™s â€œeyeâ€) and then someone who putts with it out can still have it out*

Donâ€™t get me wrong if someone wants it attended Iâ€™m not going to not do that itâ€™s just seems like they have installed a rule that either speeds up (in line with ready golf) or simplifies the game.. embrace it and bet within a few weeks people wonâ€™t even remember the old way!
		
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Amen brother!


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## Orikoru (Jan 6, 2019)

6535 said:



			I just didnâ€™t like the look of it tbh. Even tho I was on my own their was a sense of it didnâ€™t mean anything with the flag in. More like â€˜oh itâ€™s only a knockaboutâ€™ a bit carefree. Whereas when the flag is out I get the sense of it means something. Like the 3 I made when the flag was out, 6ft, Aimpoint worked, 15ft Aimpoint worked and 18ft......yep you guessed it, Aimpoint again.

Maybe, NOT being elitist here, higher hc players like that feeling where putting with the flag in gives a sense of it doesnâ€™t mean much! Just my opinion.
		
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What you describe is just because it's a new concept that you're not used to, so it looks and feels weird to begin with. In six months time say, when a lot of other golfers may have started leaving flags in, it might feel less unnatural. I do get what you mean, it will always feel odd to start with.


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## Orikoru (Jan 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I donâ€™t understand how it could be slower tbh. Anyone who used to have it attended could just leave it in because whatâ€™s the difference (not interested in the science, just talking about someone would be there to take flag out.. wouldnâ€™t affect anyoneâ€™s â€œeyeâ€) and then someone who putts with it out can still have it out

Donâ€™t get me wrong if someone wants it attended Iâ€™m not going to not do that itâ€™s just seems like they have installed a rule that either speeds up (in line with ready golf) or simplifies the game.. embrace it and bet within a few weeks people wonâ€™t even remember the old way!
		
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Agree with this. If anyone asks me to tend the flag this year I'll probably remind them that it isn't necessary with the new rules, but if they then still insist then I will tend it for them.


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## North Mimms (Jan 6, 2019)

Played first game of year, in a 4 ball.
None of us (after the first hole....) asked for flagstick to be attended.

We all seemed to be happy with flag in for long putts which would previiously been attended, then flag taken out at roughly same distance as always.
Amazed and happy at how it speeded things up - we have large greens.

However I guess we are still in the mindset of "dont need to have the flag attended as there is no longer any penalty" but I suspect in time players will divide into
 A) removing flag at previous comfortable distance
B) wanting flag left in at all times
At which times things may well slow down again unless you are playing in a group where all players are either A or B

Interestingly, like a lot of people I always leave little pins in the hole on the putting green so maybe Ill end up in Team B
At present I'm in team A


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## Jacko_G (Jan 6, 2019)

North Mimms said:



			Played first game of year, in a 4 ball.
None of us (after the first hole....) asked for flagstick to be attended.

We all seemed to be happy with flag in for long putts which would previiously been attended, then flag taken out at roughly same distance as always.
Amazed and happy at how it speeded things up - we have large greens.

However I guess we are still in the mindset of "dont need to have the flag attended as there is no longer any penalty" but I suspect in time players will divide into
 A) removing flag at previous comfortable distance
B) wanting flag left in at all times
At which times things may well slow down again unless you are playing in a group where all players are either A or B

Interestingly, like a lot of people I always leave little pins in the hole on the putting green so maybe Ill end up in Team B
At present I'm in team A
		
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It's all about changing dinosaur attitudes and perceptions.

Glad to see that many are positively embracing this change after trying it.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 6, 2019)

First round played today of winter and 2019. 
Only holes were flag was removed is when the green is hidden and to signal when we had done. 
Other than that it stayed in. 

Previously used to play a lot alone when I was off in the week so putting with the flag in is very normal for me.


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## Oddsocks (Jan 6, 2019)

Played today and Iâ€™m very honest Iâ€™m saying I do not like this rule! It speeds up play without a doubt but one of the players in our group who is a terrible putter used this rule on numerous occasions to his advantage. 

Generally his line/read is correct but he massively struggles with reading the pace, today he had around 8 putts thatâ€™s hit the pin and stopped inside 18â€ from the pin for a tap in.  I fully accept that this rule is the same for everyone one but under the old ruling due to todayâ€™s pin positions, on some putts he may have had  10/15ft return putt.

I can say hand in heart out match went to 18th and a strong contributor to this was him holing tap in 2nd putts on greens where he should have at least three putted based on lasts years putting skills.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			Played today and Iâ€™m very honest Iâ€™m saying I do not like this rule! It speeds up play without a doubt but one of the players in our group who is a terrible putter used this rule on numerous occasions to his advantage.

Generally his line/read is correct but he massively struggles with reading the pace, today he had around 8 putts thatâ€™s hit the pin and stopped inside 18â€ from the pin for a tap in.  I fully accept that this rule is the same for everyone one but under the old ruling due to todayâ€™s pin positions, on some putts he may have had  10/15ft return putt.

I can say hand in heart out match went to 18th and a strong contributor to this was him holing tap in 2nd putts on greens where he should have at least three putted based on lasts years putting skills.
		
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Used the rules to his advantage , sounds like a pro! What with spieths drop to win the open and all that

I wish I could actually be confident that itâ€™s gonna hit the pin and slow down lol if it misses could go even further past.. almost a nice bit of skill deployed here


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## Oddsocks (Jan 6, 2019)

I donâ€™t think he was confident, more playing on the side of caution.


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## SteveJay (Jan 6, 2019)

Played a roll up today and in our 4 ball I was in the minority as all the others wanted the flag out. As it wasn't too serious I relented a few times if I wasn't putting first, but I didn't see many other groups putting with it in to be honest. I did ask for the flag back in once or twice when I felt it was particularly beneficial (e.g downhill and when I needed to be aggressive to save a point ).

Feel there is a risk of feeling pressured until such time that people realise the advantages. It prompted quite a discussion today and the others were all quoting other  research which suggested it was better out. To be honest no one tested it today by hitting the flag so think it will take time and in the meantime tradition may persist for the majority.


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## garyinderry (Jan 6, 2019)

We had it in for the majority of the day.  Only if it leaned towards the player was it removed. 

Someone did say we were leaving it in out of laziness now. It wasn't affecting the putts in a negative manner so everyone was happy to leave it. 

It was taken out for the odd 3 footer by some. 


I have yet to see a flag reject a putt. I'm sure it will happen sometime but as yet the flag in is working an absolute treat.


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## Beezerk (Jan 6, 2019)

Played today for the first time with the new rule, other lads just took it out as normal, I wanted it in a few times but couldn't be &rsed with the chew on so did it as normal.
Aka nothing has changed.


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## Orikoru (Jan 6, 2019)

First competition round of the year today. I quickly adjusted to leaving the flag in actually. Often it was out of convenience for the first putt and not waiting for someone to take it out. Also I had a few downhillers early so I figured it would be advantageous to leave it in anyway. One of our group didn't take to it straight away and preferred the flag out, but rather than do flagstick hokey cokey, we just did it so that he putted last out of the three of us in that scenario.

I actually holed two really nice quite long putts with the flag in, both would have gone in either way, but it did at least show that keeping the flag in didn't hinder my putting. I thought maybe having the flag in meant I was more focused on the centre of the hole and therefore putted better? Hard to say for definite though. I had one putt that hit the flag and stayed out, but it was left of centre so I can't tell if it would have dropped without the flag - it may have lipped out on the other side. Hitting the flag left me a tap in anyway.

One downside is that once you've holed with the flag in, you have to be very careful in picking the ball out with your fingers so as not to damage the edge of the hole. Probably a greenkeeper's nightmare to be honest as a lot of people won't be that careful.


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## 6535 (Jan 6, 2019)

4 ball Shotgun start at 9 in this mornings stableford, only 2 shots on 2 greens had the pin in, the rest we were very happy to have it out.
Personally I wonâ€™t be putting with the pin in, EVER, and I agree with oddsocks.


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## richart (Jan 6, 2019)

Oddsocks said:



			Played today and Iâ€™m very honest Iâ€™m saying I do not like this rule! It speeds up play without a doubt but one of the players in our group who is a terrible putter used this rule on numerous occasions to his advantage.

Generally his line/read is correct but he massively struggles with reading the pace, today he had around 8 putts thatâ€™s hit the pin and stopped inside 18â€ from the pin for a tap in.  I fully accept that this rule is the same for everyone one but under the old ruling due to todayâ€™s pin positions, on some putts he may have had  10/15ft return putt.

I can say hand in heart out match went to 18th and a strong contributor to this was him holing tap in 2nd putts on greens where he should have at least three putted based on lasts years putting skills.
		
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Speeds up play, and you hole more putts. Struggling to find why you wouldnâ€™t leave flag in.

Personally I think for social golf flag should just be left in the hole. Ready golf and no tending should defintely speed up the game.


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## robinthehood (Jan 6, 2019)

Played today and it is nice to not have to worry about tending the flag on long putts or having to remove it for tap ins.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2019)

Played in the roll up. As I feared we had the in/out scenario especially on shorter putts.

I have tried keeping it in all of the time but had a well hit putt that hit the flag and stayed out which the PP's all thought would have dropped with it out so I'm still not convinced. It might just have been unlucky so will perhaps give it another few rounds before deciding if/when I want it out


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## Parsaregood (Jan 6, 2019)

Played using this rule yesterday and again today, i think it's a good change, no need to have the flag tended from 30ft or more and also speeds up play as nobody has to walk and remove it if they don't want to. Overall a good change, it could potentially be a pain if one wants it out, the other wants it in but I'm sure most people will only leave it in for longer range efforts or if they can't be bothered taking it out


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## chrisd (Jan 6, 2019)

I played in a 4bbb match today and was the only player who played with the flag in, however, I dont see playing matchplay using ready golf on the greens (other than with your pp) is sensible so I only had the flag replaced once during the round when it was my turn to putt


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2019)

Played yesterday, carried on taking the flag out as before. 4 balls were getting round in about 3hr40


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## garyinderry (Jan 6, 2019)




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## jim8flog (Jan 6, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			One downside is that once you've holed with the flag in, you have to be very careful in picking the ball out with your fingers so as not to damage the edge of the hole. Probably a greenkeeper's nightmare to be honest as a lot of people won't be that careful.
		
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At least under the new rules if the player causing the damage does not repair it any other play can so, the hole should have been repaired by someone, even if in the group following, before the greenkeeper gets to see it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			At least under the new rules if the player causing the damage does not repair it any other play can so, the hole should have been repaired by someone, even if in the group following, before the greenkeeper gets to see it.
		
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This was something that came up yesterday. Played with a guy with with big hands and he really struggled to get the ball out of the hole when holing out with the flag in. I can definitely see holes getting damaged and surely it's going to slow play down if people have to stop and repair the hole(s) and how well will these repairs be made?


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 6, 2019)

having been layed since before new year I havent had the chance to play with the new flag in rules ,I cant see it being much of a to do ,it will speed things up a little I would have thought as people can be lining up there own putts without having to tend the pin . it will be interesting to see if any other pro putts flag in  other than Bryson.


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## garyinderry (Jan 6, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This was something that came up yesterday. Played with a guy with with big hands and he really struggled to get the ball out of the hole when holing out with the flag in. I can definitely see holes getting damaged and surely it's going to slow play down if people have to stop and repair the hole(s) and how well will these repairs be made?
		
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If guys with big shovel hands find themselves breaking the hole then common sense would tell them to remove the stick and retrieve the ball. 

Honestly don't see this being an issue. Especially come the summer time.


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## 6535 (Jan 6, 2019)

garyinderry said:









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Not sure that proves anything tbh. All the holed putts he hit wouldâ€™ve gone in the hole if the flag was out. I think the speed of the putt needs to be higher then that to really prove anything, but like I said in another post, anyone who wants to charge a ball that risks going 4ft+ past the hole (if missed) best have a putting stroke on rails to benefit having the pin in.


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## jim8flog (Jan 6, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This was something that came up yesterday. Played with a guy with with big hands and he really struggled to get the ball out of the hole when holing out with the flag in. I can definitely see holes getting damaged and surely it's going to slow play down if people have to stop and repair the hole(s) and how well will these repairs be made?
		
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 As already said why does he not simply remove the flagstick first. Nine times out of ten the ball will come out with it.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			As already said why does he not simply remove the flagstick first. Nine times out of ten the ball will come out with it.
		
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Maybe not quite what you're describing but we should all be on the look out for the numpties that use removing the flagstick with the intention of ejecting the ball at the same time
This will cause damage and loosen the liner


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!


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## Imurg (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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If it saves 10 I'll be amazed.
I doubt it will mark the end of Slow Play threads


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## robinthehood (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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With this kind of attitude,  probably not.


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## garyinderry (Jan 7, 2019)

Noticed a lot of lag putts from the pros being played with the flag in yesterday.  

Caddy not being asked to tend like he normally would.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			With this kind of attitude,  probably not.
		
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It's not my attitude that's the problem, it's those that faff about oblivious to everyone else.


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## garyinderry (Jan 7, 2019)

6535 said:



			Not sure that proves anything tbh. All the holed putts he hit wouldâ€™ve gone in the hole if the flag was out. I think the speed of the putt needs to be higher then that to really prove anything, but like I said in another post, anyone who wants to charge a ball that risks going 4ft+ past the hole (if missed) best have a putting stroke on rails to benefit having the pin in.
		
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What this videos shows is that the flag does not have a detrimental effect on any "Good putts".  It doesn't look like it will knock out any good line decent pace putts. 
It means it would be beneficial to leave the stick in to stop any putts you hit a fraction too hard. 

That is a marginal gain and obvious advantage.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 7, 2019)

brfcfan said:



			The R&A brought in this rule to speed up play, unfortunately it will actually hold up play, and I don't think they actually thought golfers would leave the pin in to their advantage which many will. My farther played yesterday in a seniors comp and one of the worst putters in the club putted everything with the pin in and putted really well, many other golfers will try it and I reckon we will end up with probably more golfers leaving the pin in than not.

I predict that this rule will be scrapped by the end of the year because of the faffing of having the pin in and out.
		
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I hope not. It helped me massively on Sunday. Once people get used to it most will putt with the flag in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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It shouldn't be 2 minutes though, it could easily be more. If it is 30 seconds per hole, easy to achieve by not faffing around walking up to the flag, tending, walking back to your ball etc, then that is 9 minutes. 

With regards to slow play I think most of us know there is not one silver bullet, it is a series of marginal gains. A few minutes saved on the flag, a few minutes playing out of turn if you are ready, having your bag in the correct place by the green. All of these things help. If you do none of them then no, nothing will change. Do each one and bit by bit things will improve.

5 hour rounds . I'd give up golf if that was the benchmark.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 7, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This was something that came up yesterday. Played with a guy with with big hands and he really struggled to get the ball out of the hole when holing out with the flag in. I can definitely see holes getting damaged and surely it's going to slow play down if people have to stop and repair the hole(s) and how well will these repairs be made?
		
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If he's struggling to retrieve his ball from the hole with the flag in he's only got to take the flag out when he bends his back to pick it out. Not difficult.


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## Orikoru (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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I would guess 30 seconds every other green, so like 5 minutes overall for the round. It's more about the feeling that you can just get on with it an putt rather than the physical amount of time saved. For me anyway.


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## Curls (Jan 7, 2019)

First round of the year yesterday and I reckon if someone wants the pin out and it comes out, I'll putt with it out, but if it's in - and straight -  it is staying in. A few times it was leaning and it isn't good regardless of where your entry point to the hole is, cos if you catch the lip and the ball starts rolling around the inside of the hole it wil hit the pin and come out (not to say it wouldn't have lipped out without a pin in, but there's no room on the leaned-into side so you haven't a hope). 

I'm not going to start messing with putting it back in, taking it out again etc but my preference, which I'll explain to my partners early doors, would be to have it in. So if that means I putt out first and then remove it for them, what's the big deal?! As long as everyone is sensible it can only speed up play. If people want to play sillybeggars then yeah, but I was behind a group of 3 yesterday who took 6 shots each to reach the green on a par 4 and not only didn't offer to let me through but did everything in their power to ensure they didn't acknowledge my existence, lest even looking in my direction invite the possibility that as a single golfer I would ask to play through them, so there are plenty of reasons people should be dragged off the course and shot if you want to play that game. 

I am going to have to ask if the club is going to invest in new cups/pins though, I'd say we have at least 4 or 5 leaners, needs addressing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I would guess 30 seconds every other green, so like 5 minutes overall for the round. It's more about the feeling that you can just get on with it an putt rather than the physical amount of time saved. For me anyway.
		
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Good post. It's about the flow of the round isn't it? If that leads to time save as well then all the better.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 7, 2019)

The green clears quicker as well.


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## ChipIntoBunker (Jan 7, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			The green clears quicker as well.
		
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Not if you have the sort of numpty who was in the group ahead of us on Saturday who stays on the green while counting up his shots and then marking his scorecard


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2019)

ChipIntoBunker said:



			Not if you have the sort of numpty who was in the group ahead of us on Saturday who stays on the green while counting up his shots and then marking his scorecard 

Click to expand...

That's a tasering offence.


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## HughJars (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, *not ready to play when it is their turn etc.*
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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Ready golf, they're not ready to play, YOU play!


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## pokerjoke (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Does anyone think putting with the flag in will make a difference to how long a round takes? It may save a few seconds per green but people will still faff about, not ready to play when it is their turn etc.
Saving 2 minutes on a 5 hour round.....whoopee!
		
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Nope,leaving the flag in too speed up play is just a load of rubbish.
Ok if your on your own or a 2 ball with an empty course,however in a comp or on a packed course,not in my opinion.
Loads and loads of reasons and better ways to speed up play as we have been through on many occasions.

I definitely will be leaving it in for long downhill putts though,I really can see the benefits, a 50ft putt that would go 12ft past hitting the pin and stopping close is a major advantage(certainly not fair though).


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## robinthehood (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Nope,leaving the flag in too speed up play is just a load of rubbish.
Ok if your on your own or a 2 ball with an empty course,however in a comp or on a packed course,not in my opinion.
Loads and loads of reasons and better ways to speed up play as we have been through on many occasions.

I definitely will be leaving it in for long downhill putts though,I really can see the benefits, a 50ft putt that would go 12ft past hitting the pin and stopping close is a major advantage(certainly not fair though).
		
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How is it not fair? It's the same for everyone. I think the possible benefit of this change is  being massively overstated.


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2019)

Well the above discussion has shown the variety of preferences. In my book this shows the rule change is a good idea because it at least gives the individual golfer the option.


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## Wolf (Jan 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How is it not fair? It's the same for everyone. I think the possible benefit of this change is  being massively overstated.
		
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Agreed, most are acting like its a magic potion that suddenly everyone is going to be hitting the flag and dropping or stopping nearer the hole. When in fact if you look at the Amateur game how many putts are hole from long distance not very many at all, so no advantage really is gained and it can't be an advantage of everyone has the same right to leave it in.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How is it not fair? It's the same for everyone. I think the possible benefit of this change is  being massively overstated.
		
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I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).


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## DRW (Jan 7, 2019)

I do think pin in or pin out will vary with the kind of pins used. One course I play has heavy duty pins and they sit in the middle of the hole perfectly, another course I play has what I would imagine are much cheaper plastic(?) pins and often are leaning and therefore does push the ball out of the hole. The 2nd mentioned we would definitely be removing the pin on say 10 ft putts and in.

The biggest time saver, is being able to hit the long putts upto near the pin (almost never hole them or hit the pin, so it is really irrelevant to have it attended or taken out in IMHO) before other people are ready. 

That said slow play to me is really made up of slow walking, people looking for their balls, not being ready to play and taking a lot of practise swings, rather than pin removal/attending.

D4S do you often see 5 hour rounds  ?


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## Wolf (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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Imo it's completely fair because everyone is playing the same rules and has the same opportunity you're not gaining an advantage over the field in a comp because they can leave it in as well. 

You may say but in that instance it could race past and you 3 putt. I'd argue there's still less chance of it hitting the flag and stopping, because if your that far away you've got a harder chance of hitting the right line especially if you have over hit it that much so chance of 3 putting depends on a lot more than you getting the odd one that hits a flag and stops. 

If the argument was for say an illegal driver then of course there's an advantage as not everyone plays the same kit, but we do all play the same course and have same chance of hitting the flag once in a blue moon.


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## robinthehood (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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Yes it's perfectly fair. I also think your overstating your putting prowess from 50 feet. I doubt you could actually demonstrate that scenario more than 1 in 100 times , probably even worse than that.


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## Orikoru (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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Wouldn't you say it's a little reward for getting it bang on line from 50 feet?? And as mentioned it can't be unfair when everyone gets the same benefit on their downhill putts.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



*I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.*
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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As Wolf says, an advantage over whom?

There's only an advantage for you against a time when you or someone else were faced with the same putt played last year under last years rules 

There's no advantage over any other player on the course this year


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## ChipIntoBunker (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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Taking your ball further back so its now 60ft downhill...but just off the green so you're chipping (presumably with the pin in)...would you still claim it as unfair that the ball may hit the pin and not race 12ft past?


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## garyinderry (Jan 7, 2019)

Why 50feet? 


Leave it in for that 10 footer.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

DRW said:



			D4S do you often see 5 hour rounds  ? 

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Never at my club, anything over 4 hours is considered slow but you see plenty of posts on here about people complaining of long rounds.
I think a big deal is being made about the time saved by leaving the flag in when people should be looking at other reasons for slow play.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 7, 2019)

ChipIntoBunker said:



			Taking your ball further back so its now 60ft downhill...but just off the green so you're chipping (presumably with the pin in)...would you still claim it as unfair that the ball may hit the pin and not race 12ft past?
		
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No because that rule hasnâ€™t changed.
As I understand it and I may be wrong the flag can now be left in to speed up play.
Imo and itâ€™s only an opinion it will help with racy putts that if the flag wasnâ€™t in would hit the back of the hole hard and maybe run a long way past,if the flag is left in and although rare hit the flag hard,jump and land close,thatâ€™s not what the rule was changed for.

As I said maybe wrong but in the grand scheme of it I donâ€™t give a toss either.


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## Orikoru (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			No because that rule hasnâ€™t changed.
As I understand it and I may be wrong the flag can now be left in to speed up play.
Imo and itâ€™s only an opinion it will help with racy putts that if the flag wasnâ€™t in would hit the back of the hole hard and maybe run a long way past,if the flag is left in and although rare hit the flag hard,jump and land close,thatâ€™s not what the rule was changed for.

As I said maybe wrong but in the grand scheme of it I donâ€™t give a toss either.
		
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I highly doubt that they didn't discuss all the permutations of the rule before bringing it in. They obviously realised it may assist people on the occasional downhill putt that will hit the pin and decided it was fine. People (not just you) are talking as if they haven't even thought it through.


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## Imurg (Jan 7, 2019)

In solo rounds over the past 25 years I've almost always left the flag in for putting, so I've got a bit of experience in this.
In my view, a putt that hits the flagstick and rebounds from the hole is almost certainly carrying too much pace to drop unless it's one of those that hits the exact back of the cup, jumps 6 inches into the air and drops in the cup.
A putt that has enough pace to drop anyway will not rebound away if it hits the flagstick.
As a result, having the flagstick left in the hole increases your chances of holing any putt.
And it also reduces the chance that the ball will go 8-10 feet past the hole as there is something other than the hole in the way.


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## robinthehood (Jan 7, 2019)

Imurg said:



			In solo rounds over the past 25 years I've almost always left the flag in for putting, so I've got a bit of experience in this.
In my view, a putt that hits the flagstick and rebounds from the hole is almost certainly carrying too much pace to drop unless it's one of those that hits the exact back of the cup, jumps 6 inches into the air and drops in the cup.
A putt that has enough pace to drop anyway will not rebound away if it hits the flagstick.
As a result, having the flagstick left in the hole increases your chances of holing any putt.
And it also reduces the chance that the ball will go 8-10 feet past the hole as there is something other than the hole in the way.
		
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Yeah there has to be a small advantage as those putts that previously were hit to hard but on target will now stop nearer or maybe go in, but like you I've always left the flag in on solo rounds and don't think the gain is of any real significance.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

Flag in makes the hole look smaller IMO, I prefer it out from a confidence point of view.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

Played nine holes solo this morning . Flag in .
I canâ€™t see any problems really as far as golf goes !
But had a very interesting chat on one hole with the head greenkeeper.
He showed me the hole on the green I was approaching.
â€œLook at that , this is caused by people yanking the pin out to bring the ball with ,to save them bending down â€œ
I could see quite clearly the edge of the hole had been damaged.
if this is going to be the norm I think itâ€™s a bad change.


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Played nine holes solo this morning . Flag in .
I canâ€™t see any problems really as far as golf goes !
But had a very interesting chat on one hole with the head greenkeeper.
He showed me the hole on the green I was approaching.
â€œLook at that , this is caused by people yanking the pin out to bring the ball with ,to save them bending down â€œ
I could see quite clearly the edge of the hole had been damaged.
if this is going to be the norm I think itâ€™s a bad change.
		
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It may be, but it falls into the same category as guys not repairing pitchmarks or replacing divots etc. 

Ultimately it becomes ware and tear on the course and discourteous to other members / customers.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 7, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I highly doubt that they didn't discuss all the permutations of the rule before bringing it in. They obviously realised it may assist people on the occasional downhill putt that will hit the pin and decided it was fine. People (not just you) are talking as if they haven't even thought it through.
		
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Just out of interest whatâ€™s your thoughts on balls in old divots.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It may be, but it falls into the same category as guys not repairing pitchmarks or replacing divots etc. 

Ultimately it becomes ware and tear on the course and discourteous to other members / customers.
		
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Spoke to the comp sec in the clubhouse and he had been made aware by the GK.
His take was a warning was being posted to tell players it would be considered a serious breach of etiquette and a disqualification from any comp and a warning about conduct in any other game.

I have seen loads of people do this over years so this might stop it.
But you would have to grass them up, ?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It may be, but it falls into the same category as guys not repairing pitchmarks or replacing divots etc. 

Ultimately it becomes ware and tear on the course and discourteous to other members / customers.
		
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Not really you can fix anything on the green now.
But can you fix wear and tear on the hole?
I think you canâ€™t.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Just out of interest whatâ€™s your thoughts on balls in old divots.
		
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This is an old one .
I think if your balls in an obvious divot you should get relief.
But whatâ€™s a divot?

Strange that only part of the ball needs to be in the hole now to be deemed holed.
But can be underground in some divots and nothing.


Actually broke a six iron shaft playing from a divot once in Club Champs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not really you can fix anything on the green now.
But can you fix wear and tear on the hole?
I think you canâ€™t.
		
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Will it lead to the hole being moved around more? I don't know how long it stays in one place during a week but perhaps that will have to increase in order to combat this.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Will it lead to the hole being moved around more? I don't know how long it stays in one place during a week but perhaps that will have to increase in order to combat this.
		
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New holes for comp sat am but not cut again until mon am.
It will make more work for staff changing damaged holes.


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Just out of interest whatâ€™s your thoughts on balls in old divots.
		
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clubchamp98 said:



			This is an old one .
I think if your balls in an obvious divot you should get relief.
But whatâ€™s a divot?

Strange that only part of the ball needs to be in the hole now to be deemed holed.
But can be underground in some divots and nothing.


Actually broke a six iron shaft playing from a divot once in Club Champs.
		
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I think this is the problem with that rule.

How do you define divot in the rulebook? 
Is it a divot or animal scrapings? 
How deep does it have to be? 
How old? 

In reality this would effectively be preferred lies on all fairways. 

I'm not sure if the rules now define what a fairway is? They used to talk about areas 'through the green'.


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## robinthehood (Jan 7, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I think this is the problem with that rule.

How do you define divot in the rulebook? 
Is it a divot or animal scrapings? 
How deep does it have to be? 
How old? 

In reality this would effectively be preferred lies on all fairways. 

I'm not sure if the rules now define what a fairway is? They used to talk about areas 'through the green'.
		
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Its one of those things that sounds like a nice idea but would  be to hard to put into practice,  with every slightly dodgy lie being questioned. Just play it as it lies ,it's not that common occurrence.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			New holes for comp sat am but not cut again until mon am.
It will make more work for staff changing damaged holes.
		
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Thanks for that, I don't play often enough to notice when they are changed and don't see our greenstaff around. Hopefully it would not require all 18 to be moved early, they may only need to mov 3-4 for example, but at least there is that option if required. I've played 2 x 18 holes under the new system and I haven't noticed anything odd about the holes so far so I hope this will not be a universal problem. One to be monitored.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its one of those things that sounds like a nice idea but would  be to hard to put into practice,  with every slightly dodgy lie being questioned. Just play it as it lies ,it's not that common occurrence.
		
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We had a local rule that said â€œif you are on a seeded divot repaired by the green staff you get reliefâ€
This was withdrawn couple of years ago, as they were classing it as GUR but it had to be marked apparently
Thought this was a good idea as playing off a seeded divot thereâ€™s nothing to put back.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its one of those things that sounds like a nice idea but would  be to hard to put into practice,  with every slightly dodgy lie being questioned. Just play it as it lies ,it's not that common occurrence.
		
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We have a couple of tight doglegs and it is a common occurrence in these landing areas .


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I just think on long putts it could be an advantage,especially on long downhill putts on fast greens.
I will give you a scenario and you tell me if itâ€™s fair.
50ft downhill putt because Iâ€™ve left it the wrong side of the hole,thereâ€™s no way I can stop it going 12ft past or even off the green.I leave the flag in and itâ€™s racing by,it hits the flag full tilt and bounces up high stopping a foot from the hole.
Is that right?
Letâ€™s also say it gets me a handicap cut when it would have been buffer(is that fair or right).
		
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Is it anymore fair that a full 4 iron smacking the pin second bounce and stopping 6 feet away I stead of 20 yards through the back? 

Is it any more fair than a ball hitting a tree and coming back out into the middle of the fairway and not into the jungle? 

So many negative moaning Minnie's and that is saying something coming from me!!!!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Spoke to the comp sec in the clubhouse and he had been made aware by the GK.
His take was a warning was being posted to tell players it would be considered a serious breach of etiquette and a disqualification from any comp and a warning about conduct in any other game.

I have seen loads of people do this over years so this might stop it.
But you would have to grass them up, ?
		
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Absolute codswallop. 

A serious breach of ettiquette??? 


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Absolute codswallop. 

A serious breach of ettiquette??? 


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Guess it could/would be considered deliberately damaging the hole so action of some description should be taken.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Guess it could/would be considered deliberately damaging the hole so action of some description should be taken.
		
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So you hole out with the flag in, get to the hole and for whatever reason can't get the ball out without pulling the flag and the secretary thinks he/she can disqualify you.

As I say absolute codswallop and prove it was deliberate which it quite clearly isn't.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Is it anymore fair that a full 4 iron smacking the pin second bounce and stopping 6 feet away I stead of 20 yards through the back?

Is it any more fair than a ball hitting a tree and coming back out into the middle of the fairway and not into the jungle?

So many negative moaning Minnie's and that is saying something coming from me!!!!
		
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I donâ€™t hit a 4 iron,not good enough


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So you hole out with the flag in, get to the hole and for whatever reason can't get the ball out without pulling the flag and the secretary thinks he/she can disqualify you.

As I say absolute codswallop and prove it was deliberate which it quite clearly isn't.
		
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Irrespective of the new flag rule if someone is damaging the hole then action should be taken against them.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Irrespective of the new flag rule if someone is damaging the hole then action should be taken against them.
		
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Again utter rubbish.

Your intentions were to get the ball out of the hole, not to "damage" the hole. To try and prove otherwise would be very foolhardy and potentially render the club liable to "slanderous" accusations.

The secretary would very quickly end up putting the club in a very precarious position.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Again utter rubbish.

Your intentions were to get the ball out of the hole, not to "damage" the hole. To try and prove otherwise would be very foolhardy and potentially render the club liable to "slanderous" accusations.

The secretary would very quickly end up putting the club in a very precarious position.
		
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If someone knows they are damaging the hole though and still continue to do it then surely you would expect something to be down ?

Iâ€™m sure you wouldnâ€™t be happy if your putt was affected by a damaged hole


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## backwoodsman (Jan 7, 2019)

Trying to get the ball out using the flagstick is as antisocial as not repairing pitchmarks. As is trying to scoop it out with a putter head. The 25th rule of golf should be that anyone who does any of these gets an automatic kick in the nuts - or the lady-equivalent.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Again utter rubbish.

Your intentions were to get the ball out of the hole, not to "damage" the hole. To try and prove otherwise would be very foolhardy and potentially render the club liable to "slanderous" accusations.

The secretary would very quickly end up putting the club in a very precarious position.
		
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Ok if you say so.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Ok if you say so.
		
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Good lad.


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## patricks148 (Jan 7, 2019)

I've seen quit a few players take the ball out of the hole using the putter head , never heard of any of them being threatened with dq...at at least 4 different clubs as well so as Jacko says how is lifting the ball out with the flag????


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Absolute codswallop. 

A serious breach of ettiquette??? 


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Thatâ€™s what itâ€™s going to be !
Everyone knows


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## Orikoru (Jan 8, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Just out of interest whatâ€™s your thoughts on balls in old divots.
		
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Well I don't think you should have to play the ball out of a divot on the fairway. But they haven't changed that rule so I'm not sure why you asked.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Trying to get the ball out using the flagstick is as antisocial as not repairing pitchmarks. As is trying to scoop it out with a putter head. The 25th rule of golf should be that anyone who does any of these gets an automatic kick in the nuts - or the lady-equivalent.
		
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I'm a fan of a taser in these situations but I think I am going to have to give way on this to your suggestion . If you propose it, I'll second it.


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## Wolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm a fan of a taser in these situations but I think I am going to have to give way on this to your suggestion . If you propose it, I'll second it.
		
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Extra vote here motion carried anyone does this at a forum meet gets a toe to the family jewels


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I've seen quit a few players take the ball out of the hole using the putter head , never heard of any of them being threatened with dq...at at least 4 different clubs as well so as Jacko says how is lifting the ball out with the flag????
		
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I think itâ€™s only arisen because of the rule change.
Some greenkeepers are not happy with the damage to the hole and we are only a week in from the change.
In winter he only changes the holes every other day but now may have to be everyday.
This is one noticeable downside and the club have reacted.

We have two rules evenings coming up so expect this to be discussed.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

My 'group' today noticed that because some guys wanted the flag in and some wanted it removed, on the same green, there was a bit more faffing about than before !!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			My 'group' today noticed that because some guys wanted the flag in and some wanted it removed, on the same green, there was a bit more faffing about than before !!
		
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Yep my thoughts exactly. I don't care how many people are pro 'flag in', if I'm playing in a competition then it will be flag out for me irrespective of whether it is in or out when it's my turn to putt.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			My 'group' today noticed that because some guys wanted the flag in and some wanted it removed, on the same green, there was a bit more faffing about than before !!
		
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Early days though and surely that will settle down. I've played 2 rounds and no one has specifically requested leaving it in if it has already been removed. We left it in when it was convenient but once removed it stayed out. Some may be playing silly beggars, both ways, in the initial stages but hopefully that will calm down. If not then they are likely to be golfers who are pedantic and awkward anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

Accidentally over-hit your putt and it rattles the flag and drops - well that's just a lucky break (of which we often get plenty - balanced off by the bad luck/breaks).  Leave the flag in and deliberately hit the putt firmly and it goes in after hitting the flag?  Good choice.  Good putt.  But miss it? Well you take your medicine with your next putt from wherever...

If the rule had always been that the flag could be left in would there be moves to change ?  I doubt it,  it would simply be part of the game.  I'm guessing the rule over removing the flag came about in early days when the flagstick might have been pretty mighty beast and could easily be very variable in nature and diameter from one green to the next.  Certainly I remember from my very early playing days around 1970 that the flagsticks on the greens of my local muni were a variety of very solid and quite chunky rods of (rusty) steel...and when the didn't fit properly (a regular occurrence) they could lean over and present a potentially significant barrier to the ball.

Must go read Harry Vardon and Henry Cotton views on flag in / flag out when playing from off the green.

New rule I think will be fine.


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## Orikoru (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			My 'group' today noticed that because some guys wanted the flag in and some wanted it removed, on the same green, there was a bit more faffing about than before !!
		
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We had one in our group who preferred the flag to be out still. What we did was wherever possible the other two of us who wanted it in would putt first, even if we were slightly nearer (since in essence, ready golf can apply), and then remove the flag for the other guy's putts. If we weren't able to do it that way for whatever reason, then I would just leave it out once it was out, I wasn't going to be that much of a stickler about it.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			My 'group' today noticed that because some guys wanted the flag in and some wanted it removed, on the same green, there was a bit more faffing about than before !!
		
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Shouldnâ€™t be any faffing about. Ready play allows those who want the flag in to go first as its alREADY in. Those who want it out go last. 
Guess it only becomes a conundrum if you/opponents donâ€™t like lines stepped on.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 10, 2019)

I see Adam Scott has declared that he will also be keeping the flagstick in when putting.

Love the men from down under I do.


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## jim8flog (Jan 10, 2019)

Mixed ideas about in or out in our group today but one thing we all agreed on was once the flagstick was taken out it stayed out until the hole was completed by all.

Virtually every uphill putt was taken with the flagstick out. The consensus being with our flagsticks there is a better chance of the ball dropping after hitting the back of the hole rather than the flagstick.


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## 6535 (Jan 11, 2019)

Eduardo Molinari has been testing with flag in. 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ed...rand=gd&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

I also read the Adam Scott story, are clubs allowed to implement local rule that  says you can't putt with flag in? I didn't think you could override a rule with a local rule.


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## rulefan (Jan 11, 2019)

No. You cannot introduce a local rule which overrides a Rule of Golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

Our Fourball yesterday found ourselves in flag In/Out checking most greens - a couple of us fancied it in - a couple out.  For short as well as medium length putts.  Risk of much faffing about was discussed.   In the end if first to putt decided Flag Out then we generally stuck with it even if others fancied Flag In.  Was a friendly knock so didn't really matter - but I can sense a load of faffing about in a more serious context.


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

I think  all those who insist on having the flag out no matter what because that's what they've always done ,  will soon change their minds once  the pros start keeping it in.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I think  all those who insist on having the flag out no matter what because that's what they've always done ,  will soon change their minds once  the pros start keeping it in.
		
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Why should I change my mind based on what I see pros doing on telly? I will do what I feel helps me shoot the lowest scores.


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## Grant85 (Jan 11, 2019)

Personally I will be leaving the flag in, but if someone else takes it out for their putt I'll probably just carry on. 

Although I do think as the weeks go on, more and more groups will be flag out all the time. 
And any clubs that are buying new flags will probably buy flags with narrower pole at the bottom. 

I watched a bit of the tour from Hawaii last week, but it was extremely windy, so not surprised that even Bryson was having the flag taken out mostly. Plus time is not a concern for these guys, and they have caddies to sort the flag.


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## Orikoru (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Why should I change my mind based on what I see pros doing on telly? I will do what I feel helps me shoot the lowest scores.
		
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Surely if all the pros come to the conclusion that keeping it in lowers scores, then they'd probably be correct?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 11, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Surely if all the pros come to the conclusion that keeping it in lowers scores, then they'd probably be correct?
		
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Not at all. As I've said before, I putt better when I feel confident standing over the ball, happy with the line and pace that I've chosen. I put a better stroke on the ball in those situations. To me, the hole looks smaller with the flag in and as a result I don't feel as confident.

Flag out for me.


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## garyinderry (Jan 11, 2019)

Not all pros will go flag in. 

Plenty are feel players. D4S has the same idea. It's all about doing what makes you feel comfortable. 


Even if stats prove it to be marginally better with it in or out, at the end of the day, the player will ultimately do what gives him confidence.


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## Orikoru (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Not at all. As I've said before, I putt better when I feel confident standing over the ball, happy with the line and pace that I've chosen. I put a better stroke on the ball in those situations. To me, the hole looks smaller with the flag in and as a result I don't feel as confident.

Flag out for me.
		
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Funnily enough I found that aiming at a flag rather than the hole made me slightly more accurate due to the smaller target (well maybe, needs to be tested over more time of course). i.e. it made me aim for the centre of the cup rather than one edge or the other. Each to their own though! I don't actually think every pro will end up leaving them in, it will probably be about 50-50 in the end based on preference rather than cold hard numbers.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Funnily enough I found that aiming at a flag rather than the hole made me slightly more accurate due to the smaller target (well maybe, needs to be tested over more time of course). i.e. it made me aim for the centre of the cup rather than one edge or the other. Each to their own though! I don't actually think every pro will end up leaving them in, it will probably be about 50-50 in the end based on preference rather than cold hard numbers.
		
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Aiming at the flag? Only straight putts where you play?


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## robinthehood (Jan 11, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Not all pros will go flag in. 

Plenty are feel players. D4S has the same idea. It's all about doing what makes you feel comfortable. 


Even if stats prove it to be marginally better with it in or out, at the end of the day, the player will ultimately do what gives him confidence.
		
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Sure but if 2 years down the road 90% of pros are leaving the flag in, do you really think everyone else won't follow suit.


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## Orikoru (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Aiming at the flag? Only straight putts where you play?
		
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Seriously? Poor attempt mate. You know what I mean - smaller target.


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## Wolf (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Aiming at the flag? Only straight putts where you play?
		
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When I was a junior I got taught by a very good pro that every putt is in fact a straight putt, straight at the point you choose to aim at on the line you choose, you aim straight and hit straight at that point on that line and the ball does the rest. 

A lesson that stuck with me always and as a result I've always been done exactly that and been a consistent putter. So I guess you could say every putt is a straight putt in a way


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			When I was a junior I got taught by a very good pro that every putt is in fact a straight putt, straight at the point you choose to aim at on the line you choose, you aim straight and hit straight at that point on that line and the ball does the rest. 

A lesson that stuck with me always and as a result I've always been done exactly that and been a consistent putter. So I guess you could say every putt is a straight putt in a way
		
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That's how I putt, hence I am rarely aiming at the centre of the hole, so I don't get the apparent advantage of being able to aim at a flagstick when I'm very rarely actually aiming there.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Seriously? Poor attempt mate. You know what I mean - smaller target.
		
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Not sure what you mean re. poor attempt. If the putt isn't dead straight I'm not aiming at the centre of the hole, and as almost all putts have some sort of break I see no advantage.


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## jim8flog (Jan 11, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Surely if all the pros come to the conclusion that keeping it in lowers scores, then they'd probably be correct?
		
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 They play on far faster greens than most of us and I bet the flagsticks used are such a diameter that they will make very little difference.

Last week Bryson was very careful about which holes he left the flag in and which ones he took it out on.  From what I watched he seemed to be about 50/50 with it.


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## Wolf (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			That's how I putt, hence I am rarely aiming at the centre of the hole, so I don't get the apparent advantage of being able to aim at a flagstick when I'm very rarely actually aiming there.
		
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Best way to putt, I will leave flagstick in though not because I see it as an advantage, I simply don't see it as a disadvantage either, always played with it in when I've practised alone on course and never found an issue with it


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## Imurg (Jan 11, 2019)

Had a putt today that rattled the pin and stayed out.
Hit it too hard and I'm not convinced it would have dropped had the flag not been there.
In fact I think it would have popped out and gone a couple of yards away with no pin.
Flag stayed in all the way round.
I don't think we saved any time...


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Best way to putt, I will leave flagstick in though not because I see it as an advantage, I simply don't see it as a disadvantage either, always played with it in when I've practised alone on course and never found an issue with it
		
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Same here, my PP's and I are generally leaving it in from distance but taking it out once we get closer.

I have never taken the flag out when I'm out on my own for 9 holes.


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## patricks148 (Jan 11, 2019)

forget leaving it in to aide putting, laying it behind the hole about 8 inches away is far better


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## TheJezster (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not sure what you mean re. poor attempt. If the putt isn't dead straight I'm not aiming at the centre of the hole, and as almost all putts have some sort of break I see no advantage.
		
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You might not be setting the ball off directly AT the hole, but you'll certainly want it to be going into the centre of the cup from the direction of the break you hit it into!  Therefore, having the flag in, IS indeed an advantage, as proven by the research video earlier in this (or the other thread).

It's human nature to 'fear' change, so I get it, but given time when people have got used to it and all the pro's are keeping the flag in for the majority of puts, us amateurs will follow suit too ;-)


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## TheJezster (Jan 11, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			forget leaving it in to aide putting, laying it behind the hole about 8 inches away is far better

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:-D I like this idea!! hahaha


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			You might not be setting the ball off directly AT the hole, but you'll certainly want it to be going into the centre of the cup from the direction of the break you hit it into!  Therefore, having the flag in, IS indeed an advantage, as proven by the research video earlier in this (or the other thread).

It's human nature to 'fear' change, so I get it, but given time when people have got used to it and all the pro's are keeping the flag in for the majority of puts, us amateurs will follow suit too ;-)
		
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I was replying to a post talking about AIMING AT the flag. You don't aim at the flag unless the putt is dead straight.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 11, 2019)

Another round today â€˜5thâ€™and still only one putt thats hit the flagstick which was my 6 foot putt, flag was leaning to right and my ball rested against flag when I got to the hole luckily it dropped. 

I would have been annoyed if it didnâ€™t drop as I would have taken the flag out and ball would have dropped and I would of replaced the ball and taken another shot. 

Thinking about it after it was foolish to leave the flag in on this instance, with the flagstick leaning to the right it just left 3/4 of the hole for the ball to go in.


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## TheJezster (Jan 11, 2019)

The ball doesnt have to drop, as long as a part of the ball is below the cup, it's in the hole.  Just pick it up from where it rests against the flag with just 1mm below the cup, job done!


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## Rlburnside (Jan 11, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			The ball doesnt have to drop, as long as a part of the ball is below the cup, it's in the hole.  Just pick it up from where it rests against the flag with just 1mm below the cup, job done!
		
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Thanks but I did know that, none of my ball was below the hole.


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## garyinderry (Jan 11, 2019)

Resting against the flag Is in these days.


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## garyinderry (Jan 11, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Resting against the flag Is in these days.
		
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Seems I have read this wrong.  Some of the ball must be below the hole.  I would like to see some examples of these.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I think  all those who insist on having the flag out no matter what because that's what they've always done ,  will soon change their minds once  the pros start keeping it in.
		
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I said as much to the others in my group yesterday - once we get used to it most of the time we'll keep it in.  Flah In certainly helped when tapping in - not having to bother about taking the flag out.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 11, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Seems I have read this wrong.  Some of the ball must be below the hole.  I would like to see some examples of these.
		
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Easiest way to look at it is that the ruling bodies have tried to put into words what the old rules delivered!
If some part of the ball is below the surface level of the green then it's always going to drop when the flag is centered...so why not just pick it up and save time.
If no part of the ball is below the surface level, but it's touching the flagstick, it's never going to drop without some external force coming into play when the flag is removed/centered etc - so it's not holed and get on with it.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Not at all. As I've said before, I putt better when I feel confident standing over the ball, happy with the line and pace that I've chosen. I put a better stroke on the ball in those situations. To me, the hole looks smaller with the flag in and as a result I don't feel as confident.

Flag out for me.
		
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And we respect your choice. 

â›³


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I was replying to a post talking about AIMING AT the flag. You don't aim at the flag unless the putt is dead straight.
		
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Me thinks one is being a tad pedantic!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2019)

Hitting it hard at the flag will only work with a straight putt.
If you hit the ball hard on a breaking putt you will just hit it through the break.
This means to hit it hard with a breaking putt you need to take some of the break out of it.
This is just something else to go wrong imo.

Most videos I have seen have only dealt with straight putts.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Me thinks one is being a tad pedantic!
		
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Not at all.

The original post I replied to was making the point that his putting is more accurate now as aiming for the pin is a smaller target than aiming for the hole.  On a breaking putt, you're not aiming for either the hole or the pin and as most putts are breaking, I was simply pointing out that the statement doesn't make sense.


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## Cake (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not at all.

The original post I replied to was making the point that his putting is more accurate now as aiming for the pin is a smaller target than aiming for the hole.  On a breaking putt, you're not aiming for either the hole or the pin and as most putts are breaking, I was simply pointing out that the statement doesn't make sense.
		
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I get what you are saying but I view things differently - I am ALWAYS aiming at the hole, but may be starting the putt away from it depending on the break... just as it is rare that if Iâ€™m throwing a ball at something Iâ€™ll try to send it there in a straight line; Iâ€™m much more likely to take a parabolic approach to account for gravity (or â€˜vertical breakâ€™ if you like), but I am still â€˜aimingâ€™ at the target.

That is what @Orikoru was saying I think.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Cake said:



			I get what you are saying but I view things differently - I am ALWAYS aiming at the hole, but may be starting the putt away from it depending on the break... just as it is rare that if Iâ€™m throwing a ball at something Iâ€™ll try to send it there in a straight line; Iâ€™m much more likely to take a parabolic approach to account for gravity (or â€˜vertical breakâ€™ if you like), but I am still â€˜aimingâ€™ at the target.

That is what @Orikoru was saying I think.
		
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You "aim" your putter face when putting, simples...


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## Cake (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You "aim" your putter face when putting, simples...
		
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Yes, and I â€˜aimâ€™ for the hole, but donâ€™t necessarily point straight at it... for me the aim is the end goal, not where I am facing


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Cake said:



			Yes, and I â€˜aimâ€™ for the hole, but donâ€™t necessarily point straight at it... for me the aim is the end goal, not where I am facing
		
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I get what you're saying and that's perfectly fine if that's what you believe, you're free to be wrong...


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## Cake (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I get what you're saying and that's perfectly fine if that's what you believe, you're free to be wrong...
		
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Ditto Actually Iâ€™ll edit that as you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am mine.  And as anyone that doesnâ€™t share my opinion is going to be wrong in my eyes (else they would be sharing my view) unless they can convince me to change my opinion.  I assume you are of the same mind, based on your post, so weâ€™ll just have to disagree.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not at all.

The original post I replied to was making the point that his putting is more accurate now as aiming for the pin is a smaller target than aiming for the hole.  On a breaking putt, you're not aiming for either the hole or the pin and as most putts are breaking, I was simply pointing out that the statement doesn't make sense.
		
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It makes sense to me as you should always aim or focus on the smallest target that you can. 

I look at the hole when putting despite the break.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It makes sense to me as you should always aim or focus on the smallest target that you can.

I look at the hole when putting despite the break.
		
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My reply has nothing to do with where you're looking.  The definition of aiming in this instance is pointing something at a target i.e. your putter face at your intended starting line.  Unless the putt is dead straight you are not pointing your putter face at the centre of the hole and therefore by definition, not aiming at the hole.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 11, 2019)

ger147 said:



			My reply has nothing to do with where you're looking.  The definition of aiming in this instance is pointing something at a target i.e. your putter face at your intended starting line.  Unless the putt is dead straight you are not pointing your putter face at the centre of the hole and therefore by definition, not aiming at the hole.
		
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As I said earlier - pedantic.


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## ger147 (Jan 11, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			As I said earlier - pedantic.
		
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Not pedantic at all, just accurate, like your putting...


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## Slab (Jan 12, 2019)

Had about half an hour on the practice greens today and as usual I left all the flags in
Different pins to the course obviously but didn't feel the holed/not holed outcome of any putt was changed
The only outcome that was changed was on a 60 footer that probably would have jumped the hole and over run by 10ft + but struck the pin and stopped within 2ft, I'll take that on the course any day


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## pokerjoke (Jan 12, 2019)

Slab said:



			Had about half an hour on the practice greens today and as usual I left all the flags in
Different pins to the course obviously but didn't feel the holed/not holed outcome of any putt was changed
The only outcome that was changed was on a 60 footer that probably would have jumped the hole and over run by 10ft + but struck the pin and stopped within 2ft, I'll take that on the course any day
		
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Thatâ€™s funny,I mentioned that would happen


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## garyinderry (Jan 12, 2019)

Played today with the idea of the ball resting against the flag and having to have at least a tiny portion of the ball below the surface of the hole to qualify it as being holed. 


It will be very rare to find one touching the flag but not in the hole. 

It was blowing hard today.  Only once on a very sloping green with the flag being blown sideways did we observe a situation where the ball could touch the flag while not having any of the ball below the surface.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 12, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Played today with the idea of the ball resting against the flag and having to have at least a tiny portion of the ball below the surface of the hole to qualify it as being holed. 


It will be very rare to find one touching the flag but not in the hole. 

It was blowing hard today.  Only once on a very sloping green with the flag being blown sideways did we observe a situation where the ball could touch the flag while not having any of the ball below the surface.
		
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Did it drop when you centred the flag?


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## Orikoru (Jan 12, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not at all.

The original post I replied to was making the point that his putting is more accurate now as aiming for the pin is a smaller target than aiming for the hole.  On a breaking putt, you're not aiming for either the hole or the pin and as most putts are breaking, I was simply pointing out that the statement doesn't make sense.
		
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Jesus Christ man, you must be fun at parties.  I'm going with 'pedantic' as well I think. You've made about 6 posts quibbling my use of the word 'aiming'. Absolutely everyone else knew exactly what I meant.


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## IanM (Jan 12, 2019)

Played this morning.... Folk will need to get in the habit of saying what they want... a few times we were looking at each other wondering whether to remove or leave it.    But overall, it's a decent rule change


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## garyinderry (Jan 12, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Did it drop when you centred the flag?
		
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It wouldn't fall in.   The flag was blowing hard straight up the hill. A serious bend in the pole.  

Very rare to get the ball stuck there.  You wouldn't leave the flag in that position And putt towards it.


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## Skip Surf (Jan 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Played this morning.... Folk will need to get in the habit of saying what they want... a few times we were looking at each other wondering whether to remove or leave it.    But overall, it's a decent rule change
		
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New to the site (enjoying it) and just referred to this thread.  Perhaps you'll pardon me not reading all 19 pages, but I wonder if there's been a consensus reached on how to figure shot order.  While ready golf is always fine, it's been a bit confusing two weeks in trying to figure when to pull the pin.  So far, it seems everyone declaring what they prefer, then 'pin-in' players hit first regardless of distance to cup, then 'pin-outs'.  But there have also been pin jabbing in/out awkward moments similar to an intern trying to draw blood...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 14, 2019)

Skip Surf said:



			New to the site (enjoying it) and just referred to this thread.  Perhaps you'll pardon me not reading all 19 pages, but I wonder if there's been a consensus reached on how to figure shot order.  While ready golf is always fine, it's been a bit confusing two weeks in trying to figure when to pull the pin.  So far, it seems everyone declaring what they prefer, then 'pin-in' players hit first regardless of distance to cup, then 'pin-outs'.  But there have also been pin jabbing in/out awkward moments similar to an intern trying to draw blood...
		
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In the instances that I've played, once it is out it stays out. No one is insisting it goes back in 'because it is better'. I've left it in for long putts, even for tap ins if my first is just short and there is no one to remove the flag. I'll then happily ask what the others want and act accordingly. 

If people use common sense there should be no issue. If people want to dig their heels in, either way, then there may be issues but to be honest if anyone is that bothered I'd rather not play with them in future. The two groups I've played with have gone with the flow, it's partly why I play with those people.


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## Skip Surf (Jan 14, 2019)

Also of course curious whether anyone's tried 'pin-in' enough so far to deduce whether it helps or hinders, and on what type of putts.  Hey, if it works, count me 'in'...


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the instances that I've played, once it is out it stays out. No one is insisting it goes back in 'because it is better'. I've left it in for long putts, even for tap ins if my first is just short and there is no one to remove the flag. I'll then happily ask what the others want and act accordingly. 

If people use common sense there should be no issue. If people want to dig their heels in, either way, then there may be issues but to be honest if anyone is that bothered I'd rather not play with them in future. The two groups I've played with have gone with the flow, it's partly why I play with those people.
		
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We have done this , in for long putts out once we are around the hole.
No issues yet but greens are slow it may change in summer when they speed up.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			We have done this , in for long putts out once we are around the hole.
No issues yet but greens are slow it may change in summer when they speed up.
		
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Exactly.

Once people have drawn their own conclusions, greens have got to summer speeds and people are playing in events that matter to them...they will start worrying about whether to have it removed, or returned, when it's their putt.

Right now people are going with the flow from what I've seen (and done).


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## Imurg (Jan 14, 2019)

Skip Surf said:



			Also of course curious whether anyone's tried 'pin-in' enough so far to deduce whether it helps or hinders, and on what type of putts.  Hey, if it works, count me 'in'...
		
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Every time I've played solo in the last 25 years I've always left the pin in so I've no problem keeping it in now.
Nothing scientific but I feel that flag in is easier. It will slow an overhit putt and I believe that if a putt hits the pin and stays out then it almost certainly wouldn't have dropped with the pin out.
As I say, nothing scientific but I've hit a lot of putts with pins in and out and, as far as I'm concerned, the pin stays in for me.


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## Wolf (Jan 14, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Every time I've played solo in the last 25 years I've always left the pin in so I've no problem keeping it in now.
Nothing scientific but I feel that flag in is easier. It will slow an overhit putt and I believe that if a putt hits the pin and stays out then it almost certainly wouldn't have dropped with the pin out.
As I say, nothing scientific but I've hit a lot of putts with pins in and out and, as far as I'm concerned, the pin stays in for me.
		
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Exactly this for me always left it in playing alone practising and now I can leave it in when playing makes things easier for me as can just get on with it


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## Jacko_G (Jan 14, 2019)

Love this positivity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2019)

Played today in a fourball and we decided to see if there was any difference to the putts or the time taken to play the round 

One putt was helped when the person overhit the putt and it would have finished 6-10 feet passed and instead bounced of the pin - we all felt it was a bit of con really because the player didnâ€™t get punished for a poor putt , the player also felt a bit guilty about it and felt it was dumbing down the game,

another putt was going in nice paced but it hit the flag and bounced out - think the flag may have not have been in straight but couldnâ€™t tell - the putt would have certainly gone in with the flag out.

All other putts went in with no issues 

We also took 4 hours to play - made zero difference to the time it takes to play a round 

Out of the four all of us felt it was off putting to have the flag left in all the time and next time it will be back to normal - out mainly


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## turkish (Jan 14, 2019)

Funnily when we played at the weekend the 4 of us left in and didnâ€™t think it made any difference to us putting at all... IE didnâ€™t find it off putting

Didnâ€™t save anytime tho still a 4 hour round


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## richart (Jan 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Played today in a fourball and we decided to see if there was any difference to the putts or the time taken to play the round

One putt was helped when the person overhit the putt and it would have finished 6-10 feet passed and instead bounced of the pin - we all felt it was a bit of con really because the player didnâ€™t get punished for a poor putt , the player also felt a bit guilty about it and felt it was dumbing down the game,

another putt was going in nice paced but it hit the flag and bounced out - think the flag may have not have been in straight but couldnâ€™t tell - the putt would have certainly gone in with the flag out.

All other putts went in with no issues

We also took 4 hours to play - made zero difference to the time it takes to play a round

Out of the four all of us felt it was off putting to have the flag left in all the time and next time it will be back to normal - out mainly
		
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were you behind another group ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2019)

richart said:



			were you behind another group ?
		
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Nope - four hours is our normal time for a social fourball at our place - 3 ball medal or Comp


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## garyinderry (Jan 14, 2019)

I strangely feel that it's easier to aim with a flag in. I doubt this is the correct terminology but its  Like its easier to triangulate the putt.


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## 6535 (Jan 14, 2019)

Played in a 4 ball today and all players said their preference with the flag at the start. Flag out. Some were even tendered ðŸ˜µ shock horror to the anti tending-ness clan. 
A pp said it was great to hear the sound of the ball  and rolling around in the cup, compared to the previous day of the ball rattling against the flag then sliding down. 

We went round in just under 4hrs and before the anti pin out start spouting we were held up on 3-4 holes, but we werenâ€™t even concearned by that.


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## Wolf (Jan 14, 2019)

Flag in isn't the cure all for slow play.. Yes it's a little quicker on greens if done sensibly. 

But it is not going to make an overall round quicker that's something that will only happen of a culmination of things comes together like playing ready golf, walking at sensible pace between shots, not standing arund greens marking cards and so many more things than just the flag. Speed of play at moment is getting lost in translation of flag gate because its the biggest change to current rules but it isn't the cure for slow play that does now and always will remain in the hands of the people playing the game at a decent pace


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## richart (Jan 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nope - four hours is our normal time for a social fourball at our place - 3 ball medal or Comp
		
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Well stop gassing and get on with it.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 14, 2019)

richart said:



			Well stop gassing and get on with it.

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Probably leaves his trolley in the wrong place too and stands marking his card on the green while others are waiting to play!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Probably leaves his trolley in the wrong place too and stands marking his card on the green while others are waiting to play!
		
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Letâ€™s not start being cantankerous Craw - our courses timings are for four hours for a fourball and itâ€™s what we go around in regularly and have been playing ready golf for a good number of years now and certainly know where to park my trolley or when to mark my card. No need to start being a doorknob


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## Jacko_G (Jan 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Letâ€™s not start being cantankerous Craw - our courses timings are for four hours for a fourball and itâ€™s what we go around in regularly and have been playing ready golf for a good number of years now and certainly know where to park my trolley or when to mark my card. No need to start being a doorknob
		
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Sorry didn't realise you were American.

Hold on this may help you - ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 14, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			I strangely feel that it's easier to aim with a flag in. I doubt this is the correct terminology but its  Like its easier to triangulate the putt.
		
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No thatâ€™s correct I think, there is a triangle ,your eyes ,ball and hole.


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## garyinderry (Jan 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			No thatâ€™s correct I think, there is a triangle ,your eyes ,ball and hole.
		
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Maybe more like  ball, break point and flag.  

Eyes visualise the 3.


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## robinthehood (Jan 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Played today in a fourball and we decided to see if there was any difference to the putts or the time taken to play the round 

One putt was helped when the person overhit the putt and it would have finished 6-10 feet passed and instead bounced of the pin - we all felt it was a bit of con really because the player didnâ€™t get punished for a poor putt , the player also felt a bit guilty about it and felt it was dumbing down the game,

another putt was going in nice paced but it hit the flag and bounced out - think the flag may have not have been in straight but couldnâ€™t tell - the putt would have certainly gone in with the flag out.

All other putts went in with no issues 

We also took 4 hours to play - made zero difference to the time it takes to play a round 

Out of the four all of us felt it was off putting to have the flag left in all the time and next time it will be back to normal - out mainly
		
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Fwiw You can't be certain about the one that hit the flag dropping .


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## Slab (Jan 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Played today in a fourball and we decided to see if there was any difference to the putts or the time taken to play the round

One putt was helped when the person overhit the putt and it would have finished 6-10 feet passed and instead bounced of the pin -* we all felt it was a bit of con really because the player didnâ€™t get punished for a poor putt *, the player also felt a bit guilty about it and felt it was dumbing down the game,

another putt was going in nice paced but it hit the flag and bounced out - think the flag may have not have been in straight but couldnâ€™t tell - the putt would have certainly gone in with the flag out.

All other putts went in with no issues

We also took 4 hours to play - made zero difference to the time it takes to play a round

Out of the four all of us felt it was off putting to have the flag left in all the time and next time it will be back to normal - out mainly
		
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Golf is full of poor shots that don't get punished (didn't someone get a HIO after bouncing off a tree!) and full of good shots that don't get rewarded (nasty kick off a sprinkler head anyone!) 
Maybe if the flag was out the player would've subconsciously hit with less pace, you cant second guess these things or you'll go loopy

Just a bit of attitude adjustment required under the rules as they are now, it'll take a wee bit of time I suspect


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## Imurg (Jan 15, 2019)

Slab said:



			Golf is full of poor shots that don't get punished (didn't someone get a HIO after bouncing off a tree!) and full of good shots that don't get rewarded (nasty kick off a sprinkler head anyone!)
Maybe if the flag was out the player would've subconsciously hit with less pace, you cant second guess these things or you'll go loopy

Just a bit of attitude adjustment required under the rules as they are now, it'll take a wee bit of time I suspect
		
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Slab...
The voice of reason


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## garyinderry (Jan 15, 2019)

The guy who hit the pin was probably secretly buzzing his socks off but was afraid to say to his 3 scowling playing partners through a barrage of tuts and calls of dumbing down the game.   

I can put a different spin on it if you like.  

The flag in will reward an aggressive putt that is hit on line.


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## TheDiablo (Jan 15, 2019)

Played Saturday in a 4 ball. First Saturday morning game in 2019. Not out until 10 so plenty of fourballa in front

Flag in until someone removed it, then stayed out. Common sense really.

Saved 20 minutes using new rules. Was nice to get round in 3h45 with a sausage bap stop halfway. Waited on the odd shot but not too bad overall. Pace was always just the wrong side of 4hrs in the same slot last year so hoping this speeds things up regularly and wasn't a one off.

If a standard members course (sub 6500 yards) on a weekday social round takes 4 hours to get around with nobody in front then that's a very slow group imo.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 15, 2019)

People do play faster in winter because itâ€™s freezing .
Shorter course etc.
We will see when the proper comps start how times go .
Canâ€™t see it making that much difference really.
We are usually governed by the games ahead and waste most time standing on the tee, but if games in front are faster itâ€™s only going to help.


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## garyinderry (Jan 17, 2019)

Mygolfspy have done their test.  

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/


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## Orikoru (Jan 17, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Mygolfspy have done their test. 

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

Click to expand...

Wow. Some of those results are more radical than I thought. On the '9 foot past' test from 80% to 5% holed for example! No contest. As suspected the off-centre ones don't make a vast difference though. Still pretty conclusive, you will hole more putts with the flag in.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 17, 2019)

I can see this rule being abolished and going back to flag always out.
As I said a while back itâ€™s an advantage leaving the flag in from distance.

Lee Westwood said yesterday he would be leaving the flag in from distance hoping that if it was going past he hoped the flag in would stop it.


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## Orikoru (Jan 17, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I can see this rule being abolished and going back to flag always out.
As I said a while back itâ€™s an advantage leaving the flag in from distance.

Lee Westwood said yesterday he would be leaving the flag in from distance hoping that if it was going past he hoped the flag in would stop it.
		
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lol why on earth would they change it back? Do you seriously think the rulemakers didn't test it out and know that it would be a slight advantage for putts that were too hard? Of course it's an advantage but the same advantage for anyone.


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## garyinderry (Jan 17, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			I can see this rule being abolished and going back to flag always out.
As I said a while back itâ€™s an advantage leaving the flag in from distance.

Lee Westwood said yesterday he would be leaving the flag in from distance hoping that if it was going past he hoped the flag in would stop it.
		
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I don't fully understand the idea of just leaving it in from distance.  Granted there is a small  chance of of hitting the pin from long range but it is unlikely. 


The main advantage is to he gained when actually attempting to get the ball in the hole from inside 15 feet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2019)

A few of the pros have said they may see it changed for their comps 

McGinley was saying the rule was brought in not to help the golfers get the ball in the hole , not to help them out - it was brought in for pace of play purposes only - the Pros have caddies so they have no pace of play issues around the flag out or in so itâ€™s purely for performance only which then imo whilst playing to the rules is not really in the spirit of the game - itâ€™s using something to potentially help the ball get in the hole. So he questioned why its being allowed - wouldnâ€™t surprise if it was changed , rule changes shouldnâ€™t be there to make the game â€œeasierâ€ and to help golfers when they are poor putters or mistakes


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			lol why on earth would they change it back? Do you seriously think the rulemakers didn't test it out and know that it would be a slight advantage for putts that were too hard? Of course it's an advantage but the same advantage for anyone.
		
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Yeah I don't see it being revoked. It's only an advantage for putts that are online and hit to hard,  i can't see this rule knocking too many shots of handicaps


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## Beezerk (Jan 17, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Mygolfspy have done their test. 

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

Click to expand...

Blimey that's pretty conclusive. Shame they didn't do a test with the flag leaning sideways but I'll be leaving it in most of the time now.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 17, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			lol why on earth would they change it back? Do you seriously think the rulemakers didn't test it out and know that it would be a slight advantage for putts that were too hard? Of course it's an advantage but the same advantage for anyone.
		
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We will see
Calm down though mate itâ€™s only an observation.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah I don't see it being revoked. It's only an advantage for putts that are online and hit to hard,  i can't see this rule knocking too many shots of handicaps
		
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Or as Lee Westwood said impossible to stop putts.

These pro golfers are extremely accurate from long range.
Time will tell,but if the R&A see that leaving it in is a major advantage they could change it back.

And the argument that itâ€™s the same for everyone is completely false unless everyone is leaving it in,and they are not.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			Or as Lee Westwood said impossible to stop putts.

These pro golfers are extremely accurate from long range.
Time will tell,but if the R&A see that leaving it in is a major advantage they could change it back.

And the argument that itâ€™s the same for everyone is completely false unless everyone is leaving it in,and they are not.
		
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They're not that accurate.  Look at the percent off putts made from distance, once you get past 10 /12 feet out the numbers really drop off.


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## Orikoru (Jan 17, 2019)

pokerjoke said:



			And the argument that itâ€™s the same for everyone is completely false unless everyone is leaving it in,and they are not.
		
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  Everyone has the option of leaving it in. So they have the same 'advantage'.


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## Imurg (Jan 17, 2019)

New rules have been tried in the past, found to be either not working or taking up time and have been changed.
It wouldn't surprise me if this one was changed again in a year or two. R&A maybe happy with it, no doubt they'll be monitoring it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 17, 2019)

I can't see them changing the rules to not allow the flag to be left in for pro events. Surely that's a small step on the road to bifurication

I must have been tested but over a course of a season how much difference and an advantage will a pro really get and most are creatures of habit and will get the caddy to remove it anyway


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 17, 2019)

So we all want to know the COR of the flags at our course.
I do think it will help poor putters who hit it 9â€™/10â€™ past the flag but good putters will mostly have good speed.
As in the video itâ€™s the last 5â€™ that is the most important.
Itâ€™s a personal choice and nobodyâ€™s right or wrong .
If it works for you great if not just have it out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 25, 2019)

I played at a different course today, Close House, with my son and we decided at the beginning to leave the flag in on all of the holes, partly out of interest, partly for the hell of it. The pins were quite thin and the ball always dropped to the bottom of the cup. Conscious of another thread on here I was going to remove the flag when picking the ball out but the pins were so thin that it was unnecessary. We never raced a ball and whacked the pin but I don't think that would have been an issue with those pins.

This was different to my own course where the pins are thicker and the ball gets trapped on occasions. 

Based on the example of these 2 experiences, entirely unscientific, it would seem that thinner pins are better suited for this new rule. Does this fit with how others are finding this?


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## jim8flog (Jan 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I played at a different course today, Close House, with my son and we decided at the beginning to leave the flag in on all of the holes, partly out of interest, partly for the hell of it. The pins were quite thin and the ball always dropped to the bottom of the cup. Conscious of another thread on here I was going to remove the flag when picking the ball out but the pins were so thin that it was unnecessary. We never raced a ball and whacked the pin but I don't think that would have been an issue with those pins.

This was different to my own course where the pins are thicker and the ball gets trapped on occasions.

Based on the example of these 2 experiences, entirely unscientific, it would seem that thinner pins are better suited for this new rule. Does this fit with how others are finding this?
		
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As previously said the new flagsticks on our course can be a deciding factor because of the thickness of the pole.

If we were still using our old flagsticks I would probably putt with the flag in more often.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2019)

I'll see a guy tomorrow that organises an ET event
I'll ask him if he changes flagsticks or just uses the regular tapered ones we putt to every week


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## Orikoru (Jan 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I played at a different course today, Close House, with my son and we decided at the beginning to leave the flag in on all of the holes, partly out of interest, partly for the hell of it. The pins were quite thin and the ball always dropped to the bottom of the cup. Conscious of another thread on here I was going to remove the flag when picking the ball out but the pins were so thin that it was unnecessary. We never raced a ball and whacked the pin but I don't think that would have been an issue with those pins.

This was different to my own course where the pins are thicker and the ball gets trapped on occasions.

Based on the example of these 2 experiences, entirely unscientific, it would seem that thinner pins are better suited for this new rule. Does this fit with how others are finding this?
		
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100%, the thinner the flagstick the better. If I was playing a course that had thicker flagsticks I'd go back to removing them.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 25, 2019)

I had a 12 foot putt the other day and the flag was leaning slightly towards me, the putt ended up resting against the flag with none of the ball below the hole so had to take the flag out and ball dropped so had to replace and take another shot. 

Iâ€™ve had similar happen before but that time the ball dropped after around 5 seconds , going to take more care in future to either take the flag out or center it.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 25, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			I had a 12 foot putt the other day and the flag was leaning slightly towards me, the putt ended up resting against the flag with none of the ball below the hole so had to take the flag out and ball dropped so had to replace and take another shot.

Iâ€™ve had similar happen before but that time the ball dropped after around 5 seconds , going to take more care in future to either take the flag out or center it.
		
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I struggle with this - tried to set up no end of situations practically, as well as doing the theory to death, and I cannot see how any stationary ball that doesn't have some part of it below the surface can fall when the flag is removed ie it shouldn't  start moving if more than half the ball is not over the edge of the hole - and if more than half is over the edge then it doesn't matter what angle the flagstick is at as some part of the ball must be below the level.

Appreciate that the shouldn't above has a couple of riders - the first is a poorly defined edge to the hole (in which case part of the ball is even more likely to be below the level already) or longer grass (especially at this time of year) that gradually collapses under the weight of the ball at the edge and it simply rolls downhill towards and into the hole. There shouldnt be a situation where a ball will naturally start rolling downhill into a hole from stationary (holes in the wrong place on the green if this is the case!)

In theory the rule makers were trying to make it easier, and quicker (because you can just pick it up rather than requiring fit to get to the bottom) without actually changing what would, or wouldn't, be holed.


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## Orikoru (Jan 25, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I struggle with this - tried to set up no end of situations practically, as well as doing the theory to death, and I cannot see how any stationary ball that doesn't have some part of it below the surface can fall when the flag is removed ie it shouldn't  start moving if more than half the ball is not over the edge of the hole - and if more than half is over the edge then it doesn't matter what angle the flagstick is at as some part of the ball must be below the level.

Appreciate that the shouldn't above has a couple of riders - the first is a poorly defined edge to the hole (in which case part of the ball is even more likely to be below the level already) or longer grass (especially at this time of year) that gradually collapses under the weight of the ball at the edge and it simply rolls downhill towards and into the hole. There shouldnt be a situation where a ball will naturally start rolling downhill into a hole from stationary (holes in the wrong place on the green if this is the case!)

In theory the rule makers were trying to make it easier, and quicker (because you can just pick it up rather than requiring fit to get to the bottom) without actually changing what would, or wouldn't, be holed.
		
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I agree (I think)... It should be physically impossible for the ball to be leaning against the flagstick and _not_ have any part of the ball below the hole. Unless the flagstick is of enormous thickness. Even if it's just a millimetre.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 25, 2019)

Pin in = fantastic new rule. 

Its a Carlsberg rule.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 25, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I struggle with this - tried to set up no end of situations practically, as well as doing the theory to death, and I cannot see how any stationary ball that doesn't have some part of it below the surface can fall when the flag is removed ie it shouldn't  start moving if more than half the ball is not over the edge of the hole - and if more than half is over the edge then it doesn't matter what angle the flagstick is at as some part of the ball must be below the level.

Appreciate that the shouldn't above has a couple of riders - the first is a poorly defined edge to the hole (in which case part of the ball is even more likely to be below the level already) or longer grass (especially at this time of year) that gradually collapses under the weight of the ball at the edge and it simply rolls downhill towards and into the hole. There shouldnt be a situation where a ball will naturally start rolling downhill into a hole from stationary (holes in the wrong place on the green if this is the case!)

In theory the rule makers were trying to make it easier, and quicker (because you can just pick it up rather than requiring fit to get to the bottom) without actually changing what would, or wouldn't, be holed.
		
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Well I can only go by my experience both myself and my pp both had a good look at the ball and no part of the ball was below the hole. 

I carefully pulled the flagstick out of the hole and the ball dropped, maybe the hole had a small depression where my ball was but I never noticed anything.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 25, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I agree (I think)... It should be physically impossible for the ball to be leaning against the flagstick and _not_ have any part of the ball below the hole. Unless the flagstick is of enormous thickness. Even if it's just a millimetre.
		
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That is definitely not what I'm saying.
I may have worded it loosely, I'm saying that it shouldn't be possible for a ball leaning against the flagstick (regardless of thickness or lean), that would fall in when the flagstick was carefully removed, not to have had part of it (that millimetre) below the level of the green.
It's definitely possible for a ball to be up against a leaning flagstick to not be in that situation - as you say the thickness of the flagstick will impact on this situation.


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## garyinderry (Jan 25, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I agree (I think)... It should be physically impossible for the ball to be leaning against the flagstick and _not_ have any part of the ball below the hole. Unless the flagstick is of enormous thickness. Even if it's just a millimetre.
		
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I have observed one situation so far where I could see that the ball could be touching the flag while not having any of the ball below the hole.  it was on an extremely windy day. The flag was blowing hard and bending directly up a large slope.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I agree (I think)... It should be physically impossible for the ball to be leaning against the flagstick and _not_ have any part of the ball below the hole. Unless the flagstick is of enormous thickness. Even if it's just a millimetre.
		
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If the flagstick is vertical your correct but what you maybe misunderstood is that in my situation the flagstick was leaning towards me and itâ€™s certainly possible for this to happen.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 26, 2019)

You can recentre the flag stick.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 26, 2019)

This would be fun in a match play situation.
Two grown men on their knees to see if the ball is millimetres below the surface.
I can live with the flag in rule but this â€œif itâ€™s a millimetre below the levelâ€  itâ€™s holed is silly imo.
There was no need to change this rule and with flag in or out your ball should have to go below the level of the green to be deemed holed.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This would be fun in a match play situation.
Two grown men on their knees to see if the ball is millimetres below the surface.
I can live with the flag in rule but this â€œif itâ€™s a millimetre below the levelâ€  itâ€™s holed is silly imo.
There was no need to change this rule and with flag in or out your ball should have to go below the level of the green to be deemed holed.
		
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I have huge sympathy with that view; but can also see why they have done this (with this OTT approach to saving time everywhere).
My preference would be for a simply addition to the written definition that added "any doubt as to whether part of the ball is below the surface may be resolved by carefully centering the flagstick".
Gives the best of both worlds with balls that are obviously holed, but easily removed, being available quickly and any doubt easily resolved on the course.


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

Played today in a comp.  Flag in for long putts and out for shorter.  I'd happily have it in all the time and a pp raced 2 putts over the hole that probably would have dropped if he'd kept the flag in.  Also anyone who now asks to have the have the flag tended is just being awkward, flag in or out no reason  to do anything else.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

Played in comp today and the wind was blowing hard, literally had no effect on flag lean though so for me was happy for it to be in on every putt, but if a PP went first and had the flag out it stayed out saves faffing about. 

Did see the group behind us though still tending the pin a lot and they ended up a good 2 holes behind us though by the end of the round, I'm not saying that was all down to tending the flag as surely there are other contributing factors but it certainly wouldn't have help their pace as could see on 1 hole all 3 of them tended the flag whilst one of the others putted.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Played today in a comp.  Flag in for long putts and out for shorter.  I'd happily have it in all the time and a pp raced 2 putts over the hole that probably would have dropped if he'd kept the flag in.  Also anyone who now asks to have the have the flag tended is just being awkward, flag in or out no reason  to do anything else.
		
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Shhhhhhh


You'll upset certain people with that common sense approach!


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Lots of made up stuff on this thread to suit whichever side of the argument you support.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



*Lots of made up stuff* on this thread to suit whichever side of the argument you support.
		
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Are you saying people are lying then to make suit the side of the fence they sit in with the Pin in v Pin out....


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Lots of made up stuff on this thread to suit whichever side of the argument you support.
		
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Like what?


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Stuff like 2 putts *RACED* over the hole but probably would have dropped and guys behind were tending the flag and lost 2 holes.

In my opinion a ball going that quick isn't going to drop and if a group loses 2 holes then there are bigger issues than tending the flag.

But that is just my opinion and as Jacko says, everyone is entitled to have one.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Stuff like 2 putts *RACED* over the hole but probably would have dropped and guys behind were tending the flag and lost 2 holes.

In my opinion a ball going that quick isn't going to drop and if a group loses 2 holes then there are bigger issues than tending the flag.

But that is just my opinion and as Jacko says, everyone is entitled to have one.
		
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You clearly don't read posts fully before assuming people are lying or fabricating things for their own opinion allow me to give the full context of what I wrote about group that lost 2 holes incase you missed it...


Wolf said:



			Did see the group behind us though still tending the pin a lot and they ended up a good 2 holes behind us though by the end of the round, *I'm not saying that was all down to tending the flag as surely there are other contributing factors but it certainly wouldn't have help their pace as could see on 1 hole all 3 of them tended the flag whilst one of the others putted*.
		
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Even put it in bold for you, as I clearly said I'm sure it wasn't all down to tending the flag as there would be other contributing factors.. I never said it was solely down to the flag being tended but I did say it surely can't have helped.

Perhaps next time you wish to say people are making things up you do so by actually reading things fully because quite clearly what I wrote and what you took from it are different and in fact you're agreeing with what I said that there are other factors involved...


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You clearly don't read posts fully before assuming people are lying or fabricating things for their own opinion allow me to give the full context of what I wrote about group that lost 2 holes incase you missed it...


Even put it in bold for you, as I clearly said I'm sure it wasn't all down to tending the flag as there would be other contributing factors.. I never said it was solely down to the flag being tended but I did say it surely can't have helped.

Perhaps next time you wish to say people are making things up you do so by actually reading things fully because quite clearly what I wrote and what you took from it are different and in fact you're agreeing with what I said that there are other factors involved...
		
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If you don't think tending the flag was an issue then why mention it in this thread? It takes about 10 minutes to play a hole so I don't see how tending a flag can add 20 minutes to their round. I would presume the cause lay elsewhere.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			If you don't think tending the flag was an issue then why mention it in this thread? It takes about 10 minutes to play a hole so I don't see how tending a flag can add 20 minutes to their round. I would presume the cause lay elsewhere.
		
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Why mention anything in this thread then or bother having an opinion.... 

I didn't say it wasn't an issue either again misquoting me for your own benefit I said there are other factors but I don't think the tending helped. 

Seems you want to call others out for their opinion and making things to suit their case but you are doing the same by dismissing everything others say as being made up as that will suit your argument. 

I happy to disagree and have a difference of opinion, what I'm not happy with is being told things are made up or why should I post things.. If you don't like it fine but don't assume people are lying because you don't agree


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Why mention anything in this thread then or bother having an opinion.... 

I didn't say it wasn't an issue either again misquoting me for your own benefit I said there are other factors but I don't think the tending helped. 

Seems you want to call others out for their opinion and making things to suit their case but you are doing the same by dismissing everything others say as being made up as that will suit your argument. 

I happy to disagree and have a difference of opinion, what I'm not happy with is being told things are made up or why should I post things.. If you don't like it fine but don't assume people are lying because you don't agree
		
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OK let's put it a different way. How much extra time do you think was added to this other groups round because they were tending the flag?


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			OK let's put it a different way. How much extra time do you think was added to this other groups round because they were tending the flag?
		
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I wouldn't know I didn't have them on a stop watch as I was playing my own game, but does that mean I shouldn't speak of things unless I time them, even if over the course of a round it cost them say 10mins that's still a lost hole to the group in front them (our group) which is not acceptable as means they held up those behind. 

But feel free to tell me there is no way that happened or took that much time, yet factor in 30secs roughly per hole each they did it on over 18 holes and that 10mins is easily accurate, as the hole they did it for every one of them would easily add at least 1 and half minutes. So average that out as a bit less per hole and its not far off.. 

But again that doesn't suit your argument so you will disagree and assume I'm making it up...


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I wouldn't know I didn't have them on a stop watch as I was playing my own game, but does that mean I shouldn't speak of things unless I time them, even if over the course of a round it cost them say 10mins that's still a lost hole to the group in front them (our group) which is not acceptable as means they held up those behind. 

But feel free to tell me there is no way that happened or took that much time, yet factor in 30secs roughly per hole each they did it on over 18 holes and that 10mins is easily accurate, as the hole they did it for every one of them would easily add at least 1 and half minutes. So average that out as a bit less per hole and its not far off.. 

But again that doesn't suit your argument so you will disagree and assume I'm making it up...
		
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I have been playing this game for a long time and in my experience typically only 1 or 2 people would ask for the flag to be tended on any given hole and during the course of the round it would only be tended on a handful of holes. So I disagree, tending the flag doesn't add as much time to the round as some people are trying to make out.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			I have been playing this game for a long time and in my experience typically only 1 or 2 people would ask for the flag to be tended on any given hole and during the course of the round it would only be tended on a handful of holes. So I disagree, tending the flag doesn't add as much time to the round as some people are trying to make out.
		
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Of course you're right because you've been playing a long time and everyone else is wrong..... 

Enjoy your afternoon up on high won't you, I've better things to do than keep going round in circles someone that says everyone is entitled to an opinion but then doesn't accept others have a differing opinion...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Of course you're right because you've been playing a long time and everyone else is wrong.....

Enjoy your afternoon up on high won't you, I've better things to do than keep going round in circles someone that says everyone is entitled to an opinion but then doesn't accept others have a differing opinion...
		
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I don't think he is saying you're wrong. I read it that people are exaggerating things which is different to being wrong.


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## Wolf (Jan 26, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I don't think he is saying you're wrong. I read it that people are exaggerating things which is different to being wrong.
		
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I disagree D4S simply because he never said exaggerated he said made up in my book one is simply exaggerated  truth the other is saying someone's lying.. 

In that basis I cannot agree not respect what he says in return regardless of how long he has played which imo has no bearing in opinion.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I disagree D4S simply because he never said exaggerated he said made up in my book one is simply exaggerated  truth the other is saying someone's lying..

In that basis I cannot agree not respect what he says in return regardless of how long he has played which imo has no bearing in opinion.
		
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Looking back at #440.....made up/exaggerated......read it how you want but it's all the same context to me.


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## DaveR (Jan 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Of course you're right because you've been playing a long time and everyone else is wrong.....
		
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Those are your words not mine.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			I have been playing this game for a long time and in my experience typically only 1 or 2 people would ask for the flag to be tended on any given hole and during the course of the round it would only be tended on a handful of holes. So I disagree, tending the flag doesn't add as much time to the round as some people are trying to make out.
		
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It wonâ€™t add much time no, but in light of the new rules and for ease. Itâ€™ll be irritating to be asked to tend, when itâ€™d be pointless now. It might be someoneâ€™s wish, but one must question what the hell for and I would think this person is a prat.


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## DRW (Jan 26, 2019)

Loving the new pin rule, used it in a comp for 1st time, so much easier and no messing around, was able to putt earlier on a couple of putts.

One putt would have been 3-4ft past, but hit the pin dead on and it dropped. Thanks new rules!


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## Wabinez (Jan 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Played today in a comp.  Flag in for long putts and out for shorter.  I'd happily have it in all the time and a pp raced 2 putts over the hole that probably would have dropped if he'd kept the flag in.  *Also anyone who now asks to have the have the flag tended is just being awkward, flag in or out no reason  to do anything else*.
		
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I agree. Played today and one player asked for it to be tended from miles away.
I made a point to leave the flag in for a large quantity of my putts, and it was brilliant.

Some people wonâ€™t change their ways, or even bother experimenting with the flag in. I was getting wound up ðŸ˜‚


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## Crow (Jan 26, 2019)

Can't wait to play my first game of 2019 so that I can get involved in the arguments.


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Stuff like 2 putts *RACED* over the hole but probably would have dropped and guys behind were tending the flag and lost 2 holes.

In my opinion a ball going that quick isn't going to drop and if a group loses 2 holes then there are bigger issues than tending the flag.

But that is just my opinion and as Jacko says, everyone is entitled to have one.
		
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I was there and both putts went straight over the middle , hit the back of the cup and stopped about a foot past.i think they would have dropped but we'll never know.


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## Orikoru (Jan 26, 2019)

Crow said:



			Can't wait to play my first game of 2019 so that I can get involved in the arguments. 

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You _say _you can't wait, yet you _have_ waited four weeks already!


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## DRW (Jan 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			You _say _you can't wait, yet you _have_ waited four weeks already! 

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https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/random-irritations-of-the-day.97913/page-146#post-1935143

Take your time Crow


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 26, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I have huge sympathy with that view; but can also see why they have done this (with this OTT approach to saving time everywhere).
My preference would be for a simply addition to the written definition that added "any doubt as to whether part of the ball is below the surface may be resolved by carefully centering the flagstick".
Gives the best of both worlds with balls that are obviously holed, but easily removed, being available quickly and any doubt easily resolved on the course.
		
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Donâ€™t you think it would take more time to resolve a dispute than it saves.
It would with some players I know.
Just think itâ€™s unessesary.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 26, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Lots of made up stuff on this thread to suit whichever side of the argument you support.
		
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Donâ€™t think they are making it up!
Just everyone sees things that help their argument easier .
Nothing wrong with that.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 26, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			It wonâ€™t add much time no, but in light of the new rules and for ease. Itâ€™ll be irritating to be asked to tend, when itâ€™d be pointless now. It might be someoneâ€™s wish, but one must question what the hell for and I would think this person is a prat.
		
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A Prat for making a choice? Really.


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## 6535 (Jan 26, 2019)

This pin in rule hasnâ€™t done away with the option for a player to have it tended if he so wishes.


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

6535 said:



			This pin in rule hasnâ€™t done away with the option for a player to have it tended if he so wishes.
		
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Nope but anyone who asks is just being awkward and wasting others people's time as the practice is now completely unnecessary


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Nope but anyone who asks is just being awkward and wasting others people's time as the practice is now completely unnecessary
		
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Seriously going back through this again ?

Itâ€™s not your place to tell others what they should feel is unnecessary- if someone wants the flag tended then thatâ€™s their right to ask. 

I thought Golf was supposed to be a gentlemenâ€™s game and been all about good manners and etiquette - that includes when someone politely asks someone else if they could tend the flag please , you see people still doing it on both the ET and PGA Tour - until itâ€™s no longer allowed by the ruling bodies then I would expect everyone to act with the good grace expected from golfers if someone requests a flag to be tended


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## Jacko_G (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously going back through this again ?

Itâ€™s not your place to tell others what they should feel is unnecessary- if someone wants the flag tended then thatâ€™s their right to ask.

I thought Golf was supposed to be a gentlemenâ€™s game and been all about good manners and etiquette - that includes when someone politely asks someone else if they could tend the flag please , you see people still doing it on both the ET and PGA Tour - until itâ€™s no longer allowed by the ruling bodies then I would expect everyone to act with the good grace expected from golfers if someone requests a flag to be tended
		
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Who's place is it then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Who's place is it then?
		
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If you donâ€™t want the flag to be tended then thatâ€™s your choice - no one can tell you anything different , just as itâ€™s someones choice to have it tended as long as itâ€™s in the rules, until then their right is the same as anyone elseâ€™s and no one can tell them different and certainly only they can decide if itâ€™s â€œunnecessaryâ€ for them.


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## Lump (Jan 26, 2019)

Today was the first round were we left the flag in 99% of the time (only taking it out for the odd tap in) I normally donâ€™t like it in but today it felt natural. 
It does make play quicker ( or at least feel like it)


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Who's place is it then?
		
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Its my place . If you ask me to tend I'll politely point out the rules have changed and it's now  wholly unnecessary .
thats the right thing to do.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 26, 2019)

The rules have changed and a player can still ask to have the flag attended. He may even ask politely.


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## 6535 (Jan 26, 2019)

etiquette wise is to accommodate the wish of your pp and not what you think. 

Thatâ€™s the right thing to do.


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## 6535 (Jan 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Nope but anyone who asks is just being awkward and wasting others people's time as the practice is now completely unnecessary
		
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In the same breath someone who politely  asks for it to be tended and you politely refuse may think youâ€™re being awkward. You have no right to tell another player how he has to play his shot.


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

6535 said:



			In the same breath someone who politely  asks for it to be tended and you politely refuse may think youâ€™re being awkward. You have no right to tell another player how he has to play his shot.
		
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And at what point did i say i'd refuse?


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## garyinderry (Jan 26, 2019)

It is becoming more commonplace on tour for the flag not to be tended for lag putts.  

Seeing it more and more.


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## Homer (Jan 26, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			It is becoming more commonplace on tour for the flag not to be tended for lag putts. 

Seeing it more and more.
		
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Have you been out watching in the Middle East or the US?


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## duncan mackie (Jan 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Donâ€™t you think it would take more time to resolve a dispute than it saves.
It would with some players I know.
Just think itâ€™s unessesary.
		
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I agree completely.
Don't think I posted to the contrary, only that I can understand why they chose to add the option to simply remove a ball that is effectively holed.
There are also a number of other situations that the revised definition of holed solves - but unless you have had to rule on them most won't be aware at all.
As I posted, no reason why the best of both worlds couldn't have been implemented.


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## garyinderry (Jan 26, 2019)

Homer said:



			Have you been out watching in the Middle East or the US?
		
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The magic of T.V.


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## garyinderry (Jan 26, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			The magic of T.V.
		
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Last two putts right there now.  Same green.


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## 6535 (Jan 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And at what point did i say i'd refuse?
		
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By stating this. 
Also anyone who now asks to have the have the flag tended is just being awkward, flag in or out no reason *to do anything else.*
Although you've not stated that you'll refuse like others have, in them 4 words in bold you're intimating it.


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2019)

6535 said:



			By stating this.
Also anyone who now asks to have the have the flag tended is just being awkward, flag in or out no reason *to do anything else.*
Although you've not stated that you'll refuse like others have, in them 4 words in bold you're intimating it.
		
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I'm bored  now, i'll leave you with the other contrary souls on the forum.


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## DaveR (Jan 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its my place . If you ask me to tend I'll politely point out the rules have changed and it's now  wholly unnecessary .
thats the right thing to do.
		
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If I was playing with you I would politely point out that I am entitled to have the flag tended and ask you to tend it if I so wished.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 27, 2019)

DaveR said:



			If I was playing with you I would politely point out that I am entitled to have the flag tended and ask you to tend it if I so wished.
		
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Maybe they would politely decline.


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## upsidedown (Jan 27, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Maybe they would politely decline.
		
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Played at Conwy on Friday and collectively we had the flag attended 3 times due to the strong wind blowing the flag towards the side the ball was going to drop from and by the nature of the slope we're in able to see the hole without . Not a problem ðŸ˜‰ , two putts holed one missed as too short .


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## upsidedown (Jan 27, 2019)

Played at Conwy on Friday and collectively we had the flag attended 3 times due to the strong wind blowing the flag towards the side the ball was going to drop from and by the nature of the slope we're in able to see the hole without . Not a problem ðŸ˜‰ , two putts holed one missed as too short .


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 27, 2019)

Weâ€™ve been around the houses with this.
Itâ€™s a choice available to anybody.
This rule has NOT changed it now gives you the choice to leave the flag in thatâ€™s all.

Itâ€™s up to the player if itâ€™s nessesary! Itâ€™s an etiquette thing.


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## jim8flog (Jan 27, 2019)

What is making the biggest difference in time so far in my experience is players not asking the one about to play how they want it.

Many are just taking the flag out (probably out of habit) and then having to put it back in because they have failed to ask the player what he wants.

Watching the PGA last night it appeared that more pros are leaving the flag in than were in the last two tournaments.


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## robinthehood (Jan 27, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			What is making the biggest difference in time so far in my experience is players not asking the one about to play how they want it.

Many are just taking the flag out (probably out of habit) and then having to put it back in because they have failed to ask the player what he wants.

Watching the PGA last night it appeared that more pros are leaving the flag in than were in the last two tournaments.
		
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I think it will become the norm to leave it in eventually.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Weâ€™ve been around the houses with this.
Itâ€™s a choice available to anybody.
This rule has NOT changed it now gives you the choice to leave the flag in thatâ€™s all.

Itâ€™s up to the player if itâ€™s nessesary! Itâ€™s an etiquette thing.
		
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Etiquette isn't enforceable as a rule of golf but yes I agree we've been round the houses, up the hill, round the clock, over the dyke and back again.


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## howbow88 (Jan 27, 2019)

Back to flag in or not - has the Golf Spy test results been posted on this thread? I'm not reading through 25 pages 

Long story short - their tests show that the flag left in is beneficial compared to taking it out. Of my own very limited experience, I've also found that it helps. 

It does feel weird though, and I sort of agree with Justin Thomas - the picture of a winning putt at Augusta from 20ft but with the flag left in... looks a bit crap imo.


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## 6535 (Jan 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'm bored  now, i'll leave you with the other contrary souls on the forum.
		
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Far from being contrary, just stating that the rule hasnâ€™t done away with that option. 
And if Iâ€™m being contrary then you are putting yourself in the same mould.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 27, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Etiquette isn't enforceable as a rule of golf but yes I agree we've been round the houses, up the hill, round the clock, over the dyke and back again.
		
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No it isnâ€™t but itâ€™s a two way street.
Watching where ball goes , helping to look etc.
Do you really want to play like that, I donâ€™t!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			No it isnâ€™t but itâ€™s a two way street.
Watching where ball goes , helping to look etc.
Do you really want to play like that, I donâ€™t!
		
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Yes you have said already.

Still doesn't mean I'll be tending flags and if it gets to that stage I'll also not be watching balls, helping to look etc therefore two way street right enough.

ðŸ‘

However as you said earlier we've done this topic to death.

I'm happy to agree to disagree (again)!!  ðŸ˜‚â›³


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## DaveR (Jan 27, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Maybe they would politely decline.
		
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Could make for a very interesting round then. I play golf to relax and enjoy myself not to get into confrontational situations. I assume you do the same?


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## bigslice (Jan 27, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Could make for a very interesting round then. I play golf to relax and enjoy myself not to get into confrontational situations. I assume you do the same?
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜­ unknow him so well


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## 6535 (Jan 27, 2019)

DaveR said:



			Could make for a very interesting round then. I play golf to relax and enjoy myself not to get into confrontational situations. I assume you do the same?
		
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Never assume.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 27, 2019)

Adam Scott missed the flag completely from 12â€.
Wonder if he leaves it in next time.
He has always been a shakey short putter but that was poor.


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## richart (Jan 27, 2019)

Watched a fair bit of the European golf, and US golf this week, and not seen much flag attending. Seems like the pros  are embracing the new rule, and of course that have got caddies who would happily attend.

Personally I would be embarrassed to ask someone to attend now the rules have changed. I am sure they would rather be lining up their own putt. Fortunately no one has asked me to attend yet, so perhaps amateurs realise what a waste of time it is now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1089608204231806977


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## huds1475 (Jan 27, 2019)

Not checked in on this thread for a while.

What a shambles 

Up there with the "where to stand on the tee" thread.

And people wonder why golf hasn't got the best image.

Keep trucking chaps


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its my place . If you ask me to tend I'll politely point out the rules have changed and it's now  wholly unnecessary .
thats the right thing to do.
		
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Sorry but Wrong - the _right _thing to do is to do what is requested by another player.  You have no idea why a player may wish the flag attended, and it is not your job to guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2019)

huds1475 said:



			Not checked in on this thread for a while.

What a shambles 

Up there with the "where to stand on the tee" thread.

And people wonder why golf hasn't got the best image.

Keep trucking chaps
		
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HNSP was indeed an important discussion about etiquette and the wishes of the player about to play their tee shot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106624546805895169
So I reckon that would have dropped if the flag was out


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## Imurg (Mar 16, 2019)

I reckon that would have gone 8 feet past or more......
Only way that drops is of it hits the back of the hole, jumps a foot in the air and drops. 
Virtually no chance in my opinion


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2019)

I don't play on the PGA so 'in' or 'out' ain't going to change the luck I need when putting.

If I get to put first I prefer the flag in (because its probably a long put) if PP has taken it out for his/her shot I tend to carry on for the sake of the pace of play and reduce the 'traffic' around the hole.


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