# A rule situation the seems that doesn't seem entirely fair.



## Robobum (Jun 9, 2012)

A rules situation cropped up today. I'm confident that we sorted it correctly, but it just never seemed that the penalty was sufficient.......

4bbb match play away vs another local club. We all play away, halving the first two holes in par. We tee off on 3 and whilst my partner is sticking his club away he notices that one of our opponents has 15 clubs, he counts again just to be 100% sure. So we chat whilst we walk to the green and ask the question of the guy as we get to our balls. He counted and, yes, there were 15 in his bag. Didnt seem as though it was deliberate, but a penalty just the same.

So, what penalty would you have applied?? I'll see what the thoughts are before saying why I think the penalty is inadequate, and seeing thoughts on that too


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## coolhand (Jun 9, 2012)

Exactly what the rules state - loss of 2 holes - which seems resonable.


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## louise_a (Jun 9, 2012)

Surely he get penalised for every shot he had played, wouldnt think it would affect his partner though, so depending on who parred the first two in their team would depend on what the score was after two.


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## Stub (Jun 9, 2012)

Agreed - rules for matchplay say loss of two holes.


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## Ian_S (Jun 9, 2012)

As I understand the score is technically 1-1 after two holes, so you'd deduct two holes from them, meaning you're up by two.

As a extra thought, if you'd won the first two holes and been 2-0 up, would they still have lost the two holes, meaning you'd be 4up after 2?


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## bobmac (Jun 9, 2012)

I assume his partner only  had 14 maximum ?


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## Mark_G (Jun 9, 2012)

In this situation how does this get rectified, obviously one of the clubs should be removed but no one is going to leave a club out on the course, do you pass it to your opponents for safe keeping, and is it the guilty party that chooses which club to eliminate?


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## swanny32 (Jun 9, 2012)

Interested to see how you sorted this, hurry up and tell us.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 9, 2012)

louise_a said:



			Surely he get penalised for every shot he had played, wouldnt think it would affect his partner though, so depending on who parred the first two in their team would depend on what the score was after two.
		
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penalty for breach of rule 4 applied to the side see 30-3 d

the penalty is an adjustment to the score so, in this case, the match goes from all square to 2 up (if Robobum and  partner were 2 up they would become 4 up)


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## duncan mackie (Jun 9, 2012)

Mark_G said:



			In this situation how does this get rectified, obviously one of the clubs should be removed but no one is going to leave a club out on the course, do you pass it to your opponents for safe keeping, and is it the guilty party that chooses which club to eliminate?
		
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golf is a game of trust - the player selects the club and declares it out of play. If he subsequently uses it, even by mistake, it's DQ.


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## pbrown7582 (Jun 9, 2012)

Looks like I would of got it wrong I would of said loss of each hole played 3, but rule book would of been out to check!


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## Robobum (Jun 9, 2012)

Yes, 2 holes deducted from them and that's what we concluded after a bit of debate and rule book consultation.

I don't think this is sufficient. In this instance the guy with 15 clubs parred the 3rd for a half - his tee shot to the green was played with him still breaking the rules.

Take this even further and, theoretically, you could play the majority of the round with too many clubs and still only get a 2hole penalty.

I don't see that as a sufficient penalty! Is it just me that sees it that way?


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## fundy (Jun 9, 2012)

If I was given the choice on the first tee to carry 14 clubs and start all square, or carry 15 clubs and start 2 down, without doubt Id carry 14 and start all square - says to me the punishment of losing 2 holes is more than plenty


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## Ian_S (Jun 9, 2012)

Robobum said:



			Yes, 2 holes deducted from them and that's what we concluded after a bit of debate and rule book consultation.

I don't think this is sufficient. In this instance the guy with 15 clubs parred the 3rd for a half - his tee shot to the green was played with him still breaking the rules.

Take this even further and, theoretically, you could play the majority of the round with too many clubs and still only get a 2hole penalty.

I don't see that as a sufficient penalty! Is it just me that sees it that way?
		
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Seems sufficient to me. After all, if you had the choice would you choose to play with 15 clubs and start off down by 2 holes, or with 14 clubs all-square?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would choose to start two down.


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## Ian_S (Jun 9, 2012)

fundy said:



			If I was given the choice on the first tee to carry 14 clubs and start all square, or carry 15 clubs and start 2 down, without doubt Id carry 14 and start all square - says to me the punishment of losing 2 holes is more than plenty
		
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Wow, we both approached the problem in the same way


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## fundy (Jun 9, 2012)

great minds sir


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## louise_a (Jun 9, 2012)

*goes to read rule book*


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## bluewolf (Jun 9, 2012)

Ive got to say that I think that the penalty is fair enough. I don't know how much of an advantage a 15th club would give you, but I doubt that it would give you a 3 hole advantage.


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## Region3 (Jun 9, 2012)

With you saying the penalty wasn't harsh enough, I thought you were going to say the penalty was that players score didn't count on each of the first 2 holes but the other guy made the halves so no difference.

I think the loss of 2 holes far outweighs the (non) advantage he gained by having 15 clubs.

Did you win the match?


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## USER1999 (Jun 9, 2012)

Quite often I can shoot my handicap with only 5 clubs. I don't see the penalty as that unreasonable. Tough on his partner though, he won't forgive that for a while.


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## JustOne (Jun 9, 2012)

I might have waited until about the 16th then shocked them with the news


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## Robobum (Jun 10, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I might have waited until about the 16th then shocked them with the news 

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That's kind of why I don't think the penalty is enough.

Play 16 holes with every club under the sun in your bag for every shot........short sided flop - no probs, got my 64*..........low stinger in the wind - no prob, got a 1 iron too...etc, etc.

So leave the 15th dormie 3down. Notice all the extra clubs, penalty applied and still one down despite 15 holes of cheating.

Just me by the looks of it .... Haha


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## duncan mackie (Jun 10, 2012)

Robobum said:



			That's kind of why I don't think the penalty is enough.
		
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so you are seriously suggesting that you would be happy to start matches 2 down for the ability to carry 15 clubs (which represents the lightest application of the penalty)?


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## MashieNiblick (Jun 10, 2012)

Interesting discussion and I see where Robobum is coming from but the other side of the story is that you might not actually use the additional club for the entire round. You still get pinged under the rules even though you have gained no advantage.

In most cases this kind of thing is due to an error rather than an intent to cheat but I feel the Rule tries to be applicable and practicable for both situations.

I guess as an alternative what you might be looking at is something that takes into account the number of holes played in total with the additional clubs in the bag. What would that be though? Loss of each hole in match play or 2 shot pen for each hole in stoke play? I think that would be too harsh.

Think about the scenario, alluded to above,  in which I notice you have 15 clubs on the 2nd hole but decide not to call you on it until the 10th at which point we shake hands and walk in, my game. Bad luck old boy. Oh I know you didn't actually use that club but rules is rules.

How about a medal. Nice score but that's an extra 36 shots when you notice, as you put your bag away, that you left that extra club in the bag that you were trying out last night. Is that a fair penalty, given that you never used it?

OK, so could you have a system based on whether the additional club was actually used? That would I think be almost impossible to establish or apply. Which was the 15th club and where was it used?

I think what the current Rule does is establish a penalty that is a deterrent and a punishment without being too complex to apply, and which doesn't have to be qualified with whether it was intentional or or not or whether there was any actual advantage.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2012)

It is a fixed penalty, just like the penalty of 2 shots applied for a range of other infractions. Would anyone say that a player who hits his ball 50 yards out of bounds should suffer a great penalty than the player who hits 6 inches out of bounds? The former is clearly a greater offence.


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## Robobum (Jun 10, 2012)

duncan mackie said:



			so you are seriously suggesting that you would be happy to start matches 2 down for the ability to carry 15 clubs (which represents the lightest application of the penalty)?
		
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No, as I never suggested that, I don't think that.

But then the other part of your post is incorrect, so perhaps reading is not one of your strong points


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## duncan mackie (Jun 10, 2012)

Robobum said:



			No, as I never suggested that, I don't think that.

But then the other part of your post is incorrect, so perhaps reading is not one of your strong points

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putting aside any reasonable inference from both your original post, and more specifically post 22, I can't see how the application of a penalty of 2 shots over 18 (or more) holes can be anything but the lightest application of the penalty; please enlighten me?


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## Dave B (Jun 10, 2012)

How many times have you gone to clean your clubs after a round and found you've used every club in the bag?

Not many at a guess so I feel the two hole penalty is just.


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## bladeplayer (Jun 10, 2012)

just out of curiosity why did he count his opponents clubs or even look in his opponents bag ? have any of the rest of ye ever done this ?


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## robbest3offthetee (Jun 10, 2012)

BP, My playing partners always do this ,to see what club im using !!!..


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## bladeplayer (Jun 10, 2012)

robbest3offthetee said:



			BP, My playing partners always do this ,to see what club im using !!!..
		
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 would they or you for that matter count or know how many clubs were in the bag tho ?


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## robbest3offthetee (Jun 10, 2012)

TBH, Have never ever, counted or looked in another players bag,would expect them to abide by the rules the same as everybody else,this situation was obviously just a oversight by the said player, and the penalty in my opinion seemed fair....


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## RGDave (Jun 10, 2012)

Whoa....tough.

14 clubs is the rule, and it's not hard to double check.

2 hole loss seems quite a price to pay, so in a a way, I'd say it was plenty.

Then again, you could argue that any infringement of rules regarding equipment (illegal clubs, extra clubs, dodgy balls) ought just to lead to DQ...

Assuming you were playing experienced player(s), it's a bit suspicious is it not? I've gone out with all 14 compartments full (like a 3 iron and a hybrid 3) with a putter on the side for a practise on my own. If I did it in a comp, I'd probably shop myself.


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## Robobum (Jun 11, 2012)

It was a scratch game, the guy was off 1 or 2. Got to take him on face value as it being an oversight - I hope, and don't think, it was anything underhand.

My partner was checking his bag as he had some spanking new Clevelands, which look lovely by the way, and thought that the bag looked really full. He was carrying a 2 & 3iron and there were 3 headcovers - bit unusual, so he had a quick count....in fact he counted them 3 times because it was an awkward situation that was coming.

I've never looked or thought about it previously, it may have happened previously and I would have been oblivious to it.

The rule states 2 holes MAXIMUM, so the lightest of penalties would be 1 hole if discovered in time......anything else would incurr the maximum or most severe penalty for the infringement, or is it my poor reading ability?

The 2 hole penalty saved us anyway, we would have lost 2&1 otherwise. The other opponent made birdie 3 on the par 4 15th......464yds into a stiff breeze, driver 3 wood to 2feet, best shot I've seen in a long while. Then we 3 jacked 17 for par after having 15 feet for eagle 

I still think it's unfair but will stamp my feet in silence!!  Haha


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## Oddsocks (Jun 11, 2012)

Robobum said:



			Yes, 2 holes deducted from them and that's what we concluded after a bit of debate and rule book consultation.

I don't think this is sufficient. In this instance the guy with 15 clubs parred the 3rd for a half - his tee shot to the green was played with him still breaking the rules.

*Take this even further and, theoretically, you could play the majority of the round with too many clubs and still only get a 2hole penalty.

I don't see that as a sufficient penalty! Is it just me that sees it that way?*

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robo we never agree but on this situ im with you 100%

every hole played with the limit exceeded should instantly be a loss, in theory a match could be lost 10 & 8.

how someone can cheat on every hole yet only be deducted 2 holes is bonkers.


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## Robobum (Jun 11, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			robo we never agree but on this situ im with you 100%

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I disagree


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## Oddsocks (Jun 11, 2012)

Robobum said:



			I disagree

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really, thats unexpected.


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## Colin L (Jun 11, 2012)

Oddsocks said:



			robo we never agree but on this situ im with you 100%

every hole played with the limit exceeded should instantly be a loss, in theory a match could be lost 10 & 8.

how someone can cheat on every hole yet only be deducted 2 holes is bonkers.
		
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I think you have missed the point made earlier that by and large we could expect the 15 club situation to be accidental and not an attempt to cheat and I suspect the penalty is set at a maximum of  of 2 holes or 4 strokes for that reason.  If there were evidence that someone was deliberately carrying more than 14 clubs for the purpose of getting an unfair advantage, he could I expect be dealt with by disqualification.  I've no idea how you could establish that it was deliberate though.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 11, 2012)

Robobum said:



			The rule states 2 holes MAXIMUM, so the lightest of penalties would be 1 hole if discovered in time......anything else would incurr the maximum or most severe penalty for the infringement, or is it my poor reading ability?

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don't think it's a reading issue; just on different wavelenghts - neither right nor wrong.

I see a 1 hole penalty applied for playing 1 hole with 15 clubs in the bag as inherently heavier than 2 shots for playing 18 (at 1/9th of a hole per hole).


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