# Injury on an icy course



## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Hello all.

Back in December I was playing a course with friends. This was not my home course but they are both members.

When we arrived the course was frosty, hard in places but with just enough give in the ground to play safely. We were allowed to commence play with no warnings or concerns expressed by the starter re the state of the course.

The first few holes were fine, not particularly enjoyable to play but safe enough. Over the next few holes the course rises and by the tenth we were at the highest point. Course still looked as it had been down below.

We teed off at the tenth and started to walk the fairway. Just then I noticed a change in state of the ground. A massive area of solid ice where undrained water had frozen over. It didn't look any different because it has a layer of frost but it was like an ice rink underfoot. The bottom line here is that I slipped and broke my ankle.

I take the view that the upper reaches of the course, which it turned out were in pretty bad condition all over, should have been closed. The clubs insurers take the view that I accepted the risks but the club haven't completed their own bad weather safety procedures.

How do people feel about risk on the golf course ? How responsible should a club be for safety of its guests or is it simply my own damn fault for embarking on a game in zero temperatures. How do people feel about making claims for this sort of thing ? 

I should stress that I am NOT suing a golf club who can barely afford to pay out. I am claiming on their insurance, or trying to. Obviously. I can't identify the club concerned as we are going through a legal procedure but I just wondered if anyone has an opinion on the whole thing or perhaps has had a similar experience.


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## Slab (Mar 21, 2013)

Firstly I hope you're well on the mend, must have been a painful injury

Secondly you don't say what you're claiming for (I don't mean the amount) I mean what's the basis of your claim, is it loss of earnings, damage to equipment or solely the fact that you were injured?

It might help people give an opinion on this


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## Wayman (Mar 21, 2013)

Wow hope everything goes fine

Let us know what happens interested in this


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## thecraw (Mar 21, 2013)

Sorry no sympathy. You made the choice to play, no one forced you to go out at gun point. You knew its frosty, you should have known that frost will mean ice in places therefore if you were a silly billy who slipped on the ice then I guess that's nobody's fault bar your own. We really are becoming a chase the $$$ country as well and its sad. 

All your going to do is put up the fees for next year as guess who will foot the bill for an increased insurance premium next year if the insurance company does agree to accept liability.

Other than that I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you get back onto the course soon.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2013)

Firstly I hope you are making a good recovery.

As regards the fault, how responsible can the club be for a condition that in your own words didn't look any different?  I would be of the school that says if you go out in frosty conditions you should be aware of the possibility that it could well be slippery and you should take suitable precautions.  I don't need a warning on my coffee cup that the contents might be hot, and I don't need the starter or anyone else to tell me there is a likelihood that I will end up on my backside when it is frosty if I am not careful, it's pretty obvious as far as I am concerned.  Whilst I wouldn't wish it on anyone, I think that you chose to go out in those conditions so the responsibility is yours; it is not as if you had to go out and play.   

Out of interest, what spikes did you have in your shoes, or were they spikeless?


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## Oddsocks (Mar 21, 2013)

I have to echo craws post above. While however I do have sympathy for your injury and any implications that it may have caused the fact is :


YOU chose to play given the conditions
YOU walked on the ice
YOU FELL OVER

As craw said by hitting the clubs insurance, ever person using that course next year will foot ( ha ha get it foot  ) the bill of you pay out plus a percentage on top.

If you felt that strong I would have negotiated a season of free golf at most which costs them nothing.

The worst bit is let's say you get Â£10k, how much do you actually think its going to cost the insurance company in legal fees etc, you claim of 10k could well cost in the excess of 30/40k to settle


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## Keyser Soze (Mar 21, 2013)

Have to say, i don't like to see someone get injured and certainly hope you recover quickly. That said, i don't see that it's the clubs fault that you slipped over. Had this been on a pathway outside your house, would you consider suing the council?


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## LIG (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm on the fence..... I don't like all the stories about people claiming for falling over a paving stone which was a millimetre out of level but accept that there are more serious events too.

My initial reaction to your post was it's your own fault, you didn't take sufficient care in conditions which an ordinary person would have.

However, if the incident was likely to have severe financial implications for me and my family - losing house etc. - then I would use the same avenue as you have. (Generally I'm "anti" this claim culture but as this route exists *and only to protect my family from extreme consequences*, I would make a claim.)


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## louise_a (Mar 21, 2013)

Sorry you broke your ankle but by going out on the course on a frosty day surely you accepted the risks thsat it would be slippy in parts.


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## TeeItHigh (Mar 21, 2013)

Sorry you were injured and hope u make a full recovery however I agree with craw that it's your own fault!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2013)

Is this not a bit like someone injuring themselves whilst hill walking or mountain biking. Are they going to sue the mountain?
You knew the risk, you should have been aware of the ground conditions but you chose to play. 

I really dislike this American culture which seems to think that if anything goes wrong it is never the individuals fault.


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm very much in agreement with Thecraw and Oddsocks. It's no one else's responsibility to decide in poor weather conditions that you are right to play or not play when the conditions are there for all to see. On a freezing day it's fairly obvious that there will be icy, slippery places and by going onto the course you personally should know and choose to accept those risks and I don't accept personally that the starter should have to tell grown men that its icy and, therefore, could be dangerous. 

You would have all been peed off if the course was closed and it looked ok, and, lets face it, the club can't win in iffy conditions. As far as not claiming from the Club but their insurers - if the insurers pay out the premium the club and all its members pay out would be increased, and incidentally, all these claims add to everyones premiums in the long run.

I do hope that you recover quickly from the injury but hope that the insurers steadfastly refuse to settle your caim as the compensation culture is the road to ruin for the country!


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## ThePhantom (Mar 21, 2013)

This whole american culture of compensation infuriates me! By the way, you say you're not claiming from the club but its insurers? So by your own assumption their premium wont go though the roof next year? Sad, really sad.


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## DCB (Mar 21, 2013)

First time I've ever seen a post like this. Th OPs legal representative isn't going to be happy with him discussing the matter on an open forum I'd have thought.

In my view the moment the OP took to the first tee he had weighed up and accepted the risks involved in playing golf on a course in less than perfect conditions. Having accepted the risk he can't turn round and say "it wasn't my fault it was theirs !" The fact that the club didn't follow their own bad weather procedures is what the legal people will fight over. In this day and age, the claimant will probably win and the club will then be saddled with costs it didn't budget for and their insurance will rise considerably next year.

All because someone went out on a frosty morning to play golf..... nobody made him play golf.... that was his own decision.... surely he must accept that.

May sound harsh, but that's how I feel.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 21, 2013)

any sniff of frost in future and the course will be closed for fear of further potential claims thus ruining it for everyone else also!!

My sympathies for the injury which must have been very painful. I had an injury at work but my employer was so bloody good and sympathetic it never crossed my mind to claim. Maybe I am different. Also got rear ended last year and again didnt claim.

The trouble is nowadays with the majority financially worse off at present then any chance of a few Â£Â£Â£ is going to be very tempting indeed


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## USER1999 (Mar 21, 2013)

The only time I would say the club is responsible would be if they had a ban on metal spikes, which you would have worn, and in wearing plastic ones you slipped. This would then be their fault in my view.

If you choose to play in wintry conditions, wearing plastic spikes, then it's your fault. Sorry, but it just is.

If you win this, then golf courses will only be open in the summer months. Courses are equally slippy after a bit of rain.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 21, 2013)

If you had slipped on an alternative route laid out by the club then it would have been more their fault.

I agree the club could have done more to protect its customers too. You were not forced to go out and play but you did place some trust in the club. What they should have done is seen it and provided an alternative route to go around the affected area by either closing the holes or some other method.

Hopefully the club and other golfers can learn from this, I know I certainly would make my main focus getting the club to change rather than anything financial.


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## StrangelyBrown (Mar 21, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Sorry no sympathy. You made the choice to play, no one forced you to go out at gun point. You knew its frosty, you should have known that frost will mean ice in places therefore if you were a silly billy who slipped on the ice then I guess that's nobody's fault bar your own. We really are becoming a chase the $$$ country as well and its sad. 

All your going to do is put up the fees for next year as guess who will foot the bill for an increased insurance premium next year if the insurance company does agree to accept liability.

Other than that I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you get back onto the course soon.
		
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I echo that sentiment. You can't have been shocked that it was icy..?

Other than that, get well soon :thup:


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## John Boy Saint (Mar 21, 2013)

We teed off at the tenth and started to walk the fairway. Just then I noticed a change in state of the ground. A massive area of solid ice where undrained water had frozen over. *It didn't look any different because it has a layer of frost but it was like an ice rink underfoot*. The bottom line here is that I slipped and broke my ankle.

*I take the view that the upper reaches of the course, which it turned out were in pretty bad condition all over, should have been closed. The clubs insurers take the view that I accepted the risks but the club haven't completed their own bad weather safety procedures*.
		
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Firstly I hope your ankle is mending well.

I work for a company that from time to time gets folks who claim for something as a result of what they did with what I sell damaging something more expensive 9 times out of 10 through their own actions.

Your claim will no doubt have repercussions into the future without a doubt. A Golf course is a massive expanse of land, in the winter the sun isn't up until gone 7, as you say it didn't look any different. The groundsman goes out has a look at the course and to his eye in all the usual tricky places it looks fine. No previous issues have arisen previously in similar conditions so nothing to stop Golf being played.

"The upper reaches were in pretty bad condition" this is a personal view or the general consensus? "Should have been Closed" this is the knife in guts, depending on your outlook on life if you get paid out you might not see the ultimate consequences of this. Next winter when the conditions are similar the club will probably not open the course despite it being perfect safe with a bit of common sense where the weather conditions are concerned. Disappointed golfers will be turned away, before your mishap you might have stood in the car park looked out across the course, and said "what a load of old cobblers that looks perfectly playable to me". 
So you wander on to the next Golf Club who tell you they are closed, but they are closed simply because their neighbouring club has someone unfortunately slip on ice and claimed for compensation and won and as a result put their insurance premium up by a stratospheric amount. Etc etc.

Sometimes in life we all get a poor roll of the dice, and in reality we all should just take it on the chin unless someone has really and honestly caused something to happen without question. Someone above said talk to the club and get a years free golf, 10-15 years ago that might have easily happened, but in these days of blame and claim by even contemplating such a gesture is an "admission of guilt".

Not getting at the opening poster, just fed up with having to increasingly detour round the *what if* risk assessment world we now live in, especially when it pigs up my limited time social life.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2013)

What Craw said...I hate this sue sue sue society we've become never mind a total lack of personal responsibility for decisions taken and the consequences.


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

I wish you a speedy and full recovery but I hope you receive not a single penny.  This compensation culture we are currently living in is ridiculous.  We grumble about a nanny state and yet is it any wonder we are developing one?

Quick question, once you realised that the course conditions were poor, or the course should have been closed, then why did you not select a safe route off the course?  Because you took the decision to stay out there but now want compensating for your decision.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Hello all.


The first few holes were fine, not particularly enjoyable to play but safe enough. Over the next few holes the course rises and by the tenth we were at the highest point. Course still looked as it had been down below.

We teed off at the tenth and started to walk the fairway. Just then I noticed a change in state of the ground. A massive area of solid ice where undrained water had frozen over. It didn't look any different because it has a layer of frost but it was like an ice rink underfoot. The bottom line here is that I slipped and broke my ankle.


You say here you" noticed a change in the state of the ground" as you walked up the fairway,
then you go on to say "it didnt look any different".
Unfortunately thats a contradiction of terms.
However i do have sympathy with you.
The crux of the matter will be having someone to blame,that in my view would be the club.
The problem is,if everyone started claiming for injuries caused,the clubs would have to start
putting up signs saying "you play golf at your own risk".
However there are insurances you can take out for these type of accidents.
Some on here have had quite a big dig at the op,in my view thats unfair.
The trouble is people dont put themselves in the shoes of the op,if this had happened to me
i would be claiming.
Just a couple of stories of things that happened to me in the past.
I was playing football for Ifracombe town,i got pushed into an advertising board very hard.
As i fell i whacked my shoulder,the unqualified physio we had told me to play on as it didnt
seem serious.
The next ball i played felt llike someone had stuck a red hot poker into my shoulder.
Resulting from this i had 7 dislocations.
Long story short,i had 6 months off work after the operation[and i got Â£48 pounds compensation].
I have still got problems with the shoulder and will have for life,if only i knew then what i know now.
Also i got hit at 70 miles per hour on the motorway as the traffic was stationary.
My car was a write off.
The police asked me if i was injured and i said i was a little sore on the wrist and my ankle,
however i was self employed and i had to carry on working.
A few weeks later my back was killing me and i had lots of physio.
I wish now i had claimed compensation.
On the back of peoples assumption of a claims culture,maybe there is some substance,however
there are many others that dont claim that should.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2013)

As someone who made the decision to open or close courses I would hate to have had a 'will someone sue the club if I open it' added to this difficult task.
When it is touch and go to open a golf course you were under huge pressure from the golfers to open.
Once you had made the decision to open and the players had not enjoyed their round it was amazing how many would come up to me and say 'that course should never have been opened today'.

I remember once pointing to an adjacent plowed field and saying that if I put four flags in each corner there would be some golfers who would go out and play on it.


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## bluetoon (Mar 21, 2013)

Hope you don't receive single penny and don't set foot on another golf course. Really cant believe i'm reading this.

So you slipped and broke your ankle - Boo Hoo, get a grip [Edit]!

You carried out your own personal risk assessment of the conditions and still choose to play. What makes you think this is anybody's fault other than your own.

If insurance has to pay it should be your own, why should someone else pay for you slipping on a golf course, jeez.


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

I do sympathise with you and I hope that your ankle recovers ok and you have no long term problems with it. But to say it was the clubs fault is a little bit harsh. If you had been walking through the clubhouse and someone had washed the floor and not put out any warning signs then fair enough they do have to take some responsibility for it. 

I just get annoyed by this "where there is blame there is a claim" culture. How about people taking responsibility for their own actions for a change. I think people should assess a situation them self and then act accordingly. If that had been done in this situation then you would be aware of the risk of slipping over as you have already said it was icy. So when you did it was your own fault IMO as you knew the risk but still took it. 

Obviously there will be a payout of a considerable amount as my mate got his ankle broke by an idiot on a golf cart and got Â£7K for his troubles. But he did get some benefits from it though. He went to watch the Open a couple of weeks later and got the complimentary bus from the train station, that is reserved for the disabled and elderly. When he was using was using a walkway across one of the fairways on crutches the camera zoomed in on him and Peter Alyss said "no there's dedication"

If you get injured by the actions of another party then sue them. If there was something you could have reasonably done to avoid being injured, but still took the risk, then *IT IS YOU OWN FAULT*, not someone elses.


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## The Sclaffer (Mar 21, 2013)

I have  sympathy with your injury but these things  happen - it's called life. Move on please.


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## upsidedown (Mar 21, 2013)

Hope the ankle heals soon but as for claiming you've not got a leg to stand on . I'll get ma coat


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## CMAC (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm sorry you have a broken ankle but it's unbelievable you are suing the club (disguised as their insurers) for blame!

It's a big undulating field!! would you claim if you stood in a rabbit hole in the rough and broke your ankle as the club should have filled them in or made you aware of every eventuality that nature could possibly throw at you:angry:

It's a very dangerous and slippery slope (sorry) you are going down if you win the case, it will only cost everyone more money and have that club closing to protect itself under 'normal' conditions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2013)

Something a bit whiffy about this post from a new poster.

Colin...are you the club's insurance company [in disguise] trying to build a case?


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 21, 2013)

Just a question, do you not have your own golf insurance and if you do, does that not cover personal accident on the golf course?


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## cookelad (Mar 21, 2013)

To me it's a bit like the chav that breaks a window in a pub one week and complains about the price of beer the next! 

I wonder if the OP will ask why his green fee has doubled the next time he visits the course in question?


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2013)

Im surprised at some of  the answers  to be honest ,     dont get me wrong i hate a suing culture as much as anyone else on here 

But
id be surprised if the OP has not got a case here , ok the ammount maybe affected somewhat by own responsability etc,  but if you take someones money & let them out on a course that is or maybe  have dangerous areas there is a duty of care & responsability on the seller/provider (ie the club), & there is no doubt if there are inclines & declines on a course then a danger exists on this course.. i agree its a shame but its reality .. if any part of the course is in a "dangerous" condition ,  open to interpetation of course ,  it should not be open , 



Dodger might have a better insight into this than most,  be interesting how this goes tho


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Im surprised at some of  the answers  to be honest ,     dont get me wrong i hate a suing culture as much as anyone else on here 

But
id be surprised if the OP has not got a case here , ok the ammount maybe affected somewhat by own responsability etc,  but if you take someones money & let them out on a course that is or maybe  have dangerous areas there is a duty of care & responsability on the seller/provider (ie the club), & there is no doubt if there are inclines & declines on a course then a danger exists on this course.. i agree its a shame but its reality .. if any part of the course is in a "dangerous" condition ,  open to interpetation of course ,  it should not be open , 



Dodger might have a better insight into this than most,  be interesting how this goes tho
		
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Maybe the club should have done more and identified that it was not safe to use due to some ice. But a course is a very large area of land, so it would mean the ground staff going out all morning checking every where that is within the course boundary, to make sure of no ice. To do that is going to take most of the morning though, so the course would not open up until around 11:00, then people would not have time to get a game in.

The other thing that will happen is courses will just shut at the first sign of frost like people have already said. Because the insurance companies will start to put disclaimers in that if the club do let people out in icy conditions, they will not be covered for any personal injury claims, meaning the club would have to foot the bill if anyone did get injured.

So either way the golfer is going to loose out.


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 21, 2013)

bluetoon said:



			So you slipped and broke your ankle - Boo Hoo, get a grip [Edit] !
		
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OUT OF ORDER, reported and this is the first time I have ever done it.


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

club is insured for a reason. imo you got full right to TRY to get compensation.
I can't believe anyone to pass on occasion to get few grand just because clubs insurance will go higher. 
Its not like you are taking them down and getting money of them directly

Myself, if it was about my own course I would prob prefer to get the deal like free play for myself and family for next X years


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 21, 2013)

Do not know if the guy has a case, but I for one am glad of able to claim if injured in todays society, as a Union rep I see all the time Employers disregard for health and safety at work and injury's caused by this. Should the injured party sit on his/her bahookie and not get compensated for pain and suffering or reimbursed for loss of earnings ? I have a member who just recently was sacked for falsely claiming sick pay despite having a Doctors line and hospital reports from an injury at work so he has a claim in as well as seeking an outcome in a tribunal which I have no doubt he will win, should he just say aw well i dont want to be a claim seeker. I agree there are a lot of scam claims out there but that should not distract from the genuine seekers who are entitled to reimbursement for injury/injustice.


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## dufferman (Mar 21, 2013)

I've read this with some interest. I'm surprised at how many people there are who think the OP is a lowly individual and suing the club is a terrible thing. I'm not party to 'sue everyone for everything', but there has to be some responsibility from the club for opening the gates? If you can't check the course after very extreme conditions, then maybe there should be a sign to say 'Dangerous conditions underfoot' - I know it sounds lame and pathetic, but it covers any unforseen injuries like this.

I'm sure we've all seen the 'Golfer gets Â£4000 for lost eye' story from that golf insurance company. The club themselves had to pay part of that fee as the didn't have signs that informed visitors to the course of the dangerous activity taking place (or something similar). That proves that, unfortunately, where there is a blame, there is a claim. For all we know, the guy who lost his eye was a darts player by trade and could no longer play and now is unemployed and unable to support his family. 

Seems that the OP has gone silent though (probably due to the ear bashing he got) so we'll never know more info about the case...


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

sajkox said:



			club is insured for a reason. imo you got full right to TRY to get compensation.
I can't believe anyone to pass on occasion to get few grand just because clubs insurance will go higher. 
Its not like you are taking them down and getting money of them directly

Myself, if it was about my own course I would prob prefer to get the deal like free play for myself and family for next X years
		
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Your just highlighting the problem with this new american style culture we are getting. HE chose to go out and play on an icy course and he got injured from doing it. While I have the up most sympathy for his injury and hope he makes a full recovery, it was the risk he took by going out onto a frozen course. 

If came up your garden path and slipped over on ice, would you be happy if I sued you for Â£20K for loss of earnings, pain and suffering? No I thought not.....:mmm:


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

sydney greenstreet said:



			Do not know if the guy has a case, but I for one am glad of able to claim if injured in todays society, as a Union rep I see all the time Employers disregard for health and safety at work and injury's caused by this. Should the injured party sit on his/her bahookie and not get compensated for pain and suffering or reimbursed for loss of earnings ? I have a member who just recently was sacked for falsely claiming sick pay despite having a Doctors line and hospital reports from an injury at work so he has a claim in as well as seeking an outcome in a tribunal which I have no doubt he will win, should he just say aw well i dont want to be a claim seeker. I agree there are a lot of scam claims out there but that should not distract from the genuine seekers who are entitled to reimbursement for injury/injustice.
		
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This to me is a different thing though mate. A company not putting into practice safe procedures and ensuring employees have the correct IPE is a case of blatant disregard for it's employees safety, which they should not get away with and any injured parties should be suitably compensated.


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## Qwerty (Mar 21, 2013)

Id be happy to sign a disclaimer everytime I played if it cut this kind of thing out.  It may be the direction were heading in.


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			If came up your garden path and slipped over on ice, would you be happy if I sued you for Â£20K for loss of earnings, pain and suffering? No I thought not.....:mmm:
		
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Maybe not but you might still have a claim, just as if your window cleaner fell off his ladder while cleaning your windows


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## spawn_ukuk (Mar 21, 2013)

Firstly i hope you get well but im sure you get the feeling from most of the members here that what you are doing is wrong
It was frosty and you hurt yourself thats terrible of course, but its not the golf clubs fault.
All your doing is making the golf club protect its self from future problems, making it harder and more expensive for people who just want to play golf

If you read in a paper or saw on the news this story i know you'd think its just as ridiculous as most of us do.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Maybe the club should have done more and identified that it was not safe to use due to some ice. But a course is a very large area of land, so it would mean the ground staff going out all morning checking every where that is within the course boundary, to make sure of no ice. To do that is going to take most of the morning though, so the course would not open up until around 11:00, then people would not have time to get a game in.

The other thing that will happen is courses will just shut at the first sign of frost like people have already said. Because the insurance companies will start to put disclaimers in that if the club do let people out in icy conditions, they will not be covered for any personal injury claims, meaning the club would have to foot the bill if anyone did get injured.

So either way the golfer is going to loose out.
		
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I agree totaly with everything you say mate , i dont agree you should be allow sue as if you choose to go out you accept responsability , but unfortunatly the courts might not see it that way .. 

Remember the guy who got hit with the ball & lost an eye , surely you should expect the chance of getting hit if you are on a course , he still got a ball of money off both the golfer & the club .. insurance mate is a dodgy place ..


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

It is a crazy world we are living in now and the first tee is going to have to have an M25 style sign post up warning of all possible problems that may be on the course, just to try and prevent anyone from suing them. This is some of the things that I feel they will need to put up:

In wet or icy conditions ground may become slippery, walk with extreme caution.
In cold climates ensure that you have suitable clothing and a warm drink to prevent illness and the risk of hypothermia.
Be aware of people swinging golf clubs.
Be aware of golf balls that may come from all random directions.
Look out for falling branches from trees.
Always be aware of holes created by burrowing animals.
Keep a clear distance from all wildlife to prevent injury.
Wear a suitable hat and apply sun block when playing in the sun.
Do not walk up any incline greater than 20*, due to the risk of slipping.
Keep 3 foot back from the edge of any raised tee or green to prevent the risk of falling.
Take care when stepping into, or out of a bunker.
Do not stand too close to bunkers as sand in the eye is pretty sore.
150 yard markers whilst there for your benefit, can also be a trip hazard, proceed with care.

Imagine what your first tee is going to look like with a board covering all that plus other risks that will need to be covered, just to stop the club being liable for any little injury that may occur.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2013)

dufferman said:



			I've read this with some interest. I'm surprised at how many people there are who think the OP is a lowly individual and suing the club is a terrible thing. I'm not party to 'sue everyone for everything', but there has to be some responsibility from the club for opening the gates? If you can't check the course after very extreme conditions, then maybe there should be a sign to say 'Dangerous conditions underfoot' - I know it sounds lame and pathetic, but it covers any unforseen injuries like this.

I'm sure we've all seen the 'Golfer gets Â£4000 for lost eye' story from that golf insurance company. 
Seems that the OP has gone silent though (probably due to the ear bashing he got) so we'll never know more info about the case...
		
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400,000 i think mate & i think club got done for 30% & player that hit it for 70% ..


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## cookelad (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			It is a crazy world we are living in now and the first tee is going to have to have an M25 style sign post up warning of all possible problems that may be on the course, just to try and prevent anyone from suing them. This is some of the things that I feel they will need to put up:

In wet or icy conditions ground may become slippery, walk with extreme caution.
In cold climates ensure that you have suitable clothing and a warm drink to prevent illness and the risk of hypothermia.
Be aware of people swinging golf clubs.
Be aware of golf balls that may come from all random directions.
Look out for falling branches from trees.
Always be aware of holes created by burrowing animals.
Keep a clear distance from all wildlife to prevent injury.
Wear a suitable hat and apply sun block when playing in the sun.
Do not walk up any incline greater than 20*, due to the risk of slipping.
Keep 3 foot back from the edge of any raised tee or green to prevent the risk of falling.
Take care when stepping into, or out of a bunker.
Do not stand too close to bunkers as sand in the eye is pretty sore.
150 yard markers whilst there for your benefit, can also be a trip hazard, proceed with care.
Following breathing out be sure to breathe in after a short amount of time to avoid becoming lightheaded and/or dead

Imagine what your first tee is going to look like with a board covering all that plus other risks that will need to be covered, just to stop the club being liable for any little injury that may occur.
		
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Added one more that appears to be needed!


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			I agree totaly with everything you say mate , i dont agree you should be allow sue as if you choose to go out you accept responsability , but unfortunatly the courts might not see it that way .. 

Remember the guy who got hit with the ball & lost an eye , surely you should expect the chance of getting hit if you are on a course , he still got a ball of money off both the golfer & the club .. insurance mate is a dodgy place ..
		
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I know what you are saying buddy. In the 22 years that I have been playing 2 of my mates have been involved in personal injury claims on the course. One was making a claim the other was being claimed against. Fortunately my friends won on both accounts. Just a brief outline what happened:

Me and my mate where stood on the tee, he tees off and thins one up the left side of the fairway. At the same time someone comes walking onto our hole from another fairway at this point, we scream "*FORE"* but it was too late. The ball hits him full on the back of the hand, smashing it to bits and making it explode with blood. The judge was in favour of my mate because the injured party came walking onto our hole as we were playing a shot, so it was his own neglect that caused his injury.

Another mate a couple of years ago was stood round the side of some bushes playing a shot when someone messing around in a golf buggy came round the side of them and cleaned him out breaking his ankle. That one did not get to court, no surprise there it was pretty obvious who was the guilty party. He got a nice little compo payout on that one.


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## Hickory_Hacker (Mar 21, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Sorry no sympathy. You made the choice to play, no one forced you to go out at gun point. You knew its frosty, you should have known that frost will mean ice in places therefore if you were a silly billy who slipped on the ice then I guess that's nobody's fault bar your own. We really are becoming a chase the $$$ country as well and its sad. 

All your going to do is put up the fees for next year as guess who will foot the bill for an increased insurance premium next year if the insurance company does agree to accept liability.

Other than that I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you get back onto the course soon.
		
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Yep, I agree and there's no sympathy from me other than an ouch. 

Frost and Ice in the winter and in the summer you could slip on wet grass. It's an outside sport, watch your feet and be careful of flying golf balls.


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I know what you are saying buddy. In the 22 years that I have been playing 2 of my mates have been involved in personal injury claims on the course. One was making a claim the other was being claimed against. Fortunately my friends won on both accounts. Just a brief outline what happened:

Me and my mate where stood on the tee, he tees off and thins one up the left side of the fairway. At the same time someone comes walking onto our hole from another fairway at this point, we scream "*FORE"* but it was too late. The ball hits him full on the back of the hand, smashing it to bits and making it explode with blood. The judge was in favour of my mate because the injured party came walking onto our hole as we were playing a shot, so it was his own neglect that caused his injury.

Another mate a couple of years ago was stood round the side of some bushes playing a shot when someone messing around in a golf buggy came round the side of them and cleaned him out breaking his ankle. That one did not get to court, no surprise there it was pretty obvious who was the guilty party. He got a nice little compo payout on that one.
		
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 ............    and both cases appear to have been judged absolutely correctl, given your description.

Someone wanting the golf club to be responsible for them slipping in icy conditions when a 4 year old would know the dangers is absolutely disgusting as far as I am concerned. There is only one person at fault!


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## duncan mackie (Mar 21, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			id be surprised if the OP has not got a case here , ok the ammount maybe affected somewhat by own responsability etc,  but if you take someones money & let them out on a course that is or maybe  have dangerous areas there is a duty of care & responsability on the seller/provider (ie the club), & there is no doubt if there are inclines & declines on a course then a danger exists on this course.. i agree its a shame but its reality .. if any part of the course is in a "dangerous" condition ,  open to interpetation of course ,  it should not be open ,
		
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good outline, but I would tend to agree with the points you make rather than their interpretation here on the basis of the OP

I beleive that the basic situation would be that the Operators must make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the health and safety risks to both workers and participants to help decide what they must do to make their activity safe (risk assessment)

Once these risks have been assessed, operators should implement sensible and proportionate measures to control the risks. 

This has tended to focus on any artificial area when dealing with open ground leisure - which is why you will tend to see specific notices associated with steep concrete slopes, timber steps and the like. 

In this instance you have a risk associated with entirely natural elements for which the only practical risk measure would be course closure - however this would, on that basis, have to be extended to permanent closure if it was to effectively cover wet, damp, animal holes, risk of tripping over tree roots, risk of drowning in ponds (or casual water) etc so basically there is a general acceptance of natural risks when participating in the sport.

The OP's wording makes it remarkably clear that he recognised the specific risks, and was even monitoring them as they went onto higher ground and saw ice before falling and suffering an injury. If, for example, this ice was a result of a known leaking pipe during dry conditions then I an see a case (success being dependent on when it had occured and whether it would have been reasonable for the club to establish the situation, recognise the risk and take action).


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## Mozza73 (Mar 21, 2013)

Get well soon OP, but I hope you don't get a penny.


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## Wooky (Mar 21, 2013)

Mmm.
On the basis of reading this thread, I am going to get some golf insurance.
Although I have thought about it before, I have never bothered to do anything about it.
But, it is a bit worrying reading the amount people on this thread who think that suing a club for something like this is ok.


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## Birchy (Mar 21, 2013)

When you see a course is icy then surely everybody knows it could be slippy? Just like if you walk out into the road when theres a car coming it might hurt a bit or if you juggle knives you might stab yourself?

We will be wearing crash helmets playing golf at this rate.


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Just another little thought on this. If the club did not warn him about the risk of ice and put no signs out either, then is it possible that the insurance will not cover this? Because the club has not taken every step possible to try and prevent this form happening. I am no insurance wiz and someone who either works in it or has worked in it may know better. I know with car insurance, if you have an accident while under the influence or driving recklessly then they will not pay out. 

I am just wondering if this is the same with a golf clubs 3rd party liability insurance if they have not taken all the possible steps to prevent the accident. If this is the case and the club has to stump up say Â£10k to him, this could cripple them if they are one of these clubs that are really struggling to make ends meet. 

So not to put a guilt trip on you, but when you win this case and the club has to pay your compo. There will be a load of people out of work and a few hundred people without a golf club, or those members will end up with an extra Â£50 on next years fees to cover it......


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Wooky said:



			Mmm.
On the basis of reading this thread, I am going to get some golf insurance.
Although I have thought about it before, I have never bothered to do anything about it.
But, it is a bit worrying reading the amount people on this thread who think that suing a club for something like this is ok.
		
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You are either mad or rich enough to pay the compo, not to have insurance. 

Always makes me laugh when people do not just have some basic 3rd party liability cover as it is not that expensive really. I do not ever bother with cover for my kit though, as it is only covered against theft if locked in your boot, out of site, during daylight hours, on the first Sunday of the month, but only if it is raining............


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## The Sclaffer (Mar 21, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Id be happy to sign a disclaimer everytime I played if it cut this kind of thing out.  It may be the direction were heading in.
		
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I've already been requested to do  this when visiting some courses. I think there may have been  an insurance element built in to the cost of the green fee.

Having said it's very very sad that things have come to this but it's an indication of today's society where personal responsibility has become a thing of the past and it's now a case of "Who can I blame?"


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## Wooky (Mar 21, 2013)

Thing is though, where will it all end?
We have all played on courses with maybe wooden steps up to an elevated tee, these steps are often wet, slippery & maybe not in the best of condition, quite easy to slip & fall on them.

Or maybe whilst searching for a ball in the undergrowth, you trip on a bramble, or put your foot in a hole or slip down a bank?

There are any number of scenarios you can think of that could cause an injury, we can't just sue at the drop of a hat for everything.

We really have to take some responsibility for our own safety in day to day life, instead of walking around with blinkers on, thinking it's ok, if I have an accident I will just sue, because it's bound to be someone else's fault.


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## Qwerty (Mar 21, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Id be happy to sign a disclaimer everytime I played if it cut this kind of thing out.  It may be the direction were heading in.
		
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The Sclaffer said:



			I've already been requested to do  this when visiting some courses. I think there may have been  an insurance element built in to the cost of the green fee.?"
		
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It would be worth signing something if it resulted in us being rid of the health and safety signs that appear to be popping up on local courses. Also tee blocks seem to be disappearing in favour of flat coloured discs, I'm presuming to eliminate the potential trip hazard.


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## CMAC (Mar 21, 2013)

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2013/03/shock-320k-damages-award-against-golf-club/


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2013)

I've read the thread and to be honest, I agree with the majority. Although it was an unfortunate incident it was an accident and the OP had made the decision to go out and play. I don't agree with the compensation culture, whether that is suing the club directly or indirectly and surely if the golfer had insurance he would have been covered.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

By allowing the OP to play the golf course/club are, by proxy, declaring the course safe to play (or more accurately, as safe as when it is not experiencing such conditions).

Then the onus falls on the OP to show that he wouldn't have sustained his injury if the course had been safe. That's where the case is won and loss.

Can't believe how many people on here are saying they hope the OP doesn't get a penny, from the sounds of things he has a very good and proper case.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2013)

DarthVega said:



http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2013/03/shock-320k-damages-award-against-golf-club/

Click to expand...

THIS ONE BELOW I DONT UNDERSTAND .. if i was employed as a ball spotter i would assume id be near where the balls were landing & accept i was in danger , yet its got to court .. strange thing the law aint it ?

"A ball spotter at Leven Links Golf Course was left blind in one eye when a ball hit by a competitor in the Scottish amateur Champion of Champions struck him.

The incident occurred in 2009, but David McMahon, 70, who is seeking Â£50,000 of damages"


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## williamalex1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Would you sue the the roads dept if you skidded on a icy road that hadn't  been gritted or closed, no. Go sell your clubs and buy some knitting needles and balls of wool.you'll be safe then. 
Sorry about your ankle btw. watch you don't poke your eye with your new toys


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

Oooooofffttt.

I best keep out or I will be out of the forum if I start.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 21, 2013)

Surely golf clubs will have public liability insurance.
So it wont cost the club any money.
However if this is the case im sure there are some clubs that cant afford the insurance,so 
take the risk.
I dont know how a club works,maybe someone could enlighten us.
To all those have told the op to "get on with it".
Imagine it was you,however it was much worse.
For example you out on the course,its wet and there are some steps leading down from the tee box
to the fairway,the steps are wet and they have a little bit of moss on them.
You slip and hit your back and break it,its so bad you are in a wheelchair.
Your not so tough now are you,and yes you would want compensation.
Ok extreme but not impossible.
Wish the op would come back and defend himself.
Its amazing how many come on here looking for sympathy on some stupid little thing,then
bash someone for a more serious issue.
Rant over[i think]


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			By allowing the OP to play the golf course/club are, by proxy, declaring the course safe to play (or more accurately, as safe as when it is not experiencing such conditions).

Then the onus falls on the OP to show that he wouldn't have sustained his injury if the course had been safe. That's where the case is won and loss.

Can't believe how many people on here are saying they hope the OP doesn't get a penny, from the sounds of things he has a very good and proper case.
		
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Are you serious? Why does anything that happens to a person have to be someone's fault and require financial reparation? utterly pathetic.  By his own admission he could see that the course was icy.

Where is the 'jesus wept' smiley


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Are you serious? Why does anything that happens to a person have to be someone's fault and require financial reparation? utterly pathetic.  By his own admission he could see that the course was icy.

Where is the 'jesus wept' smiley
		
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By being open the course is declared fit to play. 

If it wasn't fit to play, he has a case.

Yes?


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			By being open the course is declared fit to play. 

If it wasn't fit to play, he has a case.

Yes?
		
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He is an adult, he knew it was icy, being an adult he could have put two and two togethor, Yes?
We live in Britain, the weather is generally crap, do you want to get to the stage where we can only actually get out on the course on around 60 days a year?

pathetic tree hugging everyone else is to blame spineless cry baby society we live in.


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## triple_bogey (Mar 21, 2013)

Wonder if there were anyone more incidents like this at that course around that particular time?


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			By being open the course is declared fit to play. 

If it wasn't fit to play, he has a case.

Yes?
		
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If we have a course that has no ice on it bar the shaded bit on the 7th and another on the 11th it should be closed then?


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Pokerjoke,

To me the situation you say is in a different category. If there are wooden steps covered in moss then it is the responsibility of the club to put something on them to remove the moss or a non slip coating. If they choose to ignore it, then they are in trouble.

If there is a patch of ice that is not very obvious on the course that has developed overnight, the club would probably not even be aware of it. So would not think that there is a danger to anyone.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			If we have a course that has no ice on it bar the shaded bit on the 7th and another on the 11th it should be closed then?
		
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That is for the club to decide and accept the liability for. Not for me or you to decide.


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## ADB (Mar 21, 2013)

pathetic tree hugging everyone else is to blame spineless cry baby society we live in.
		
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Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel 

The only thing I have to say is that if his claim is successful we are on a slippery slope of litigation.......sorry


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			He is an adult, he knew it was icy, being an adult he could have put two and two togethor, Yes?
We live in Britain, the weather is generally crap, do you want to get to the stage where we can only actually get out on the course on around 60 days a year?

pathetic tree hugging everyone else is to blame spineless cry baby society we live in.
		
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So you admit that you're giving your opinion based on what you WANT to be the case rather than what is the case?

Two different scenarios.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			He is an adult, he knew it was icy, being an adult he could have put two and two togethor, Yes?
We live in Britain, the weather is generally crap, do you want to get to the stage where we can only actually get out on the course on around 60 days a year?

*pathetic tree hugging everyone else is to blame spineless cry baby society we live in*.
		
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Well put :thup:


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			By being open the course is declared fit to play. 

If it wasn't fit to play, he has a case.

Yes?
		
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So going on your theory then every local council should shut every road down as soon as the first signs of ice start to appear, just in case someone was to drive on them before they had chance to grit them. As you are putting it, people can't make a judgement call by them self and need someone to guide them to stop them having accidents.


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			That is for the club to decide and accept the liability for. Not for me or you to decide.
		
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Nice side step there.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Pokerjoke,

To me the situation you say is in a different category. If there are wooden steps covered in moss then it is the responsibility of the club to put something on them to remove the moss or a non slip coating. If they choose to ignore it, then they are in trouble.

If there is a patch of ice that is not very obvious on the course that has developed overnight, the club would probably not even be aware of it. So would not think that there is a danger to anyone.
		
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Fair point mate.
But the point for me is the slating the op is getting.
What im trying to get at is if it happened to any of us,but on a worse scale,would we not want protection
of some sort.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			So going on your theory then every local council should shut every road down as soon as the first signs of ice start to appear, just in case someone was to drive on them before they had chance to grit them. As you are putting it, people can't make a judgement call by them self and need someone to guide them to stop them having accidents.
		
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Nope, I didn't say that's what should happen at all. 

That is what you have inferred from what I have said.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Nice side step there.
		
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Not at all. My opinion is irrelevant in this case, as is yours.


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Not at all. My opinion is irrelevant in this case, as is yours.
		
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Really?

Irony overload.:lol:


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm ambivalent on this.

Not a fan of 'nanny state' nor ambulance chasers/compensation culture, but if someone else has been negligent, then reasonable compensation is due.

I'd suggest going to a No Win/No Fee bunch who are probably in the best position to measure what the chances of success are - so whether their work will pay off or not!

Hope you recover well. The concept of successful claims meaning that membership fees go up strikes me as irrelevant - and a tad barmy imo.

I actually slipped down a bunker and broke my ankle 18 months ago. No work (so no pay) for 7 weeks! I didn't claim.

BTW. Councils have a statutory obligation to maintain roads in proper condition. If you damage your suspension in a pot-hole (deeper than a certain value) that they have been notified of and done nothing about, then a claim can be made - and is likely to be successful. Quite a lot of faff involved though.


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## thecraw (Mar 21, 2013)

sydney greenstreet said:



			OUT OF ORDER, reported and this is the first time I have ever done it.
		
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Flippin grow a set man!


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## thecraw (Mar 21, 2013)

Birchy said:



			When you see a course is icy then surely everybody knows it could be slippy? Just like if you walk out into the road when theres a car coming it might hurt a bit or if you juggle knives you might stab yourself?

*We will be wearing crash helmets playing golf at this rate.*

Click to expand...

Your dam right if StuartC is in your fourball!!!!!!!!!!


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## ThePhantom (Mar 21, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Flippin grow a set man!
		
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Not long been here but got to say the forum is hilarious!!! 

These are joke posts aren't they?


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

You do both realise that the post was edited to remove the abuse, yes?


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## ThePhantom (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You do both realise that the post was edited to remove the abuse, yes?
		
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Abuse? When you say abuse you mean he used the word 'fanny'?


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## thecraw (Mar 21, 2013)

ThePhantom said:



			Abuse? When you say abuse you mean he used the word 'fanny'?
		
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And Uncle Quentin? What about lashings of Ginger Beer? That not allowed either?


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			You do both realise that the post was edited to remove the abuse, yes?
		
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why do you put _yes?_ at the end of posts? is it to emphasise a point?


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			why do you put _yes?_ at the end of posts? is it to emphasise a point?
		
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Why don't you put capital letters at the start of sentences?

So many questions, so little time.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			why do you put _yes?_ at the end of posts? is it to emphasise a point?
		
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Yes!


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## deanobillquay (Mar 21, 2013)

Christ, man up and ask the club if they'll give you a free buggy til the plaster comes off!!

There's risk in nearly every sport, it's to be accepted.


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

I do enjoy these sort of posts as there is always a divide and not much fence sitting. I still think that if people start being able to get compo in cases like this then golf clubs are going to suffer. This is what scares me about what will happen if people start to win these types of cases when the club really could not have done much to prevent it. It is not like some paving stones that are dangerous and being ignored by the club, until someone finally falls over on them.

this is what I see happening:

1) Liability insurance will go up, which will get passed onto the members in their annual fees.
2) If an accident does happen, that the club could have done something to prevent, ( like in the case of like the OP) the insurance company will not pay out due to the club being negligent by not shutting the course.
3) Courses are now frightened of having to pay out to a compo claim from their own pocket, so the slightest sign of the ground getting icy or slippery they will just shut it.
4) Annual fees will be put up to make sure the club has finances to pay out on these compo claims.
5) Members leave for other courses that are less susceptible to icing up, as they are going to be open during the winter.
6) Club now has hardly any members and ends up shutting down. (bit extreme, but you see my point) 

This is what worries me about cases like this. God knows what the course is going to look like, 6 foot fences around all water to prevent people falling in, massive warning signs everywhere, all raised greens and tees flattened so no one can slip down them, the list is endless.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Pretty much the reaction I expected given my OP, but a point worth debating I felt.

Just to clarify how I got to where I am now with this. I did not simply fall, break my ankle and see the Â£Â£Â£ signs. One of my playing partners reported the incident to the club the next day and gave them my contact details. I was expecting that someone might phone me and make sure I was okay etc etc, perhaps chuck Â£50 behind the bar for my next visit or offer a discounted membership at best.

My next contact came from the clubs insurers who vehemently denied that there was any liability admission, stated I was not to contact the club or play it until the 'matter' was resolved and subsequently recommended that I appoint a lawyer. Frankly they got my back up with their attitude

So basically no apology or show of concern from the club and a boorish bullying couple of emails from their insurers had me scrurrying along to a no win no fee agent to see where I stood. I dont think they handled it very well because of the compensation culture and the fear of me suing them and essentially their defensive attitude ensured that is what happened.

Yes I could have walked away and put it down to experience, and yes I still may not receive compensation and yes I see the case for me not receiving anything, and wont be grieving or angry if I dont.

But its not a clean cut as me simply walking out of xray right into a lawyers office. In fact if anyone forced it down the legal route it was the club and their insurers. Had the club NOT had liability insurance I wouldnt have even bothered taking it this far. My understanding is that there isnt much of a threat to their premiums should they lose but frankly I am not too concerned with that as they themselves put the case down that road when a phone call and a bunch of floors could have fixed it.


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

A couple of quetions for you.

Why was the accident not reported as soon as it happened? how did you get to hospital? Did you walk off the course?

Your failure to report the ice could have resulted in the next group to slip if the area was dangerous. The club cannot be expected to do anything if they did not know about the ice.


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## thecraw (Mar 21, 2013)

It makes no difference. You were still silly enough to slip. I fear you have dollar signs in your eyes now.

I sprained my ankle in a rabbit hole at Millport a couple of years back. The club didn't have any signs up saying rabbits had burrowed into the ground please watch your your step. Should I have taken legal action? I just put it down to me being a **** who didn't watch his footing properly.


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Fair point Colin, but you did not explain that in your OP. It was coming across as you fell and saw the Â£ signs and went after them. It sounds like the course has handled it in a really bad way and like you said a little bit more empathy and you may not have messed around with a compo claim. 

I think people are just getting fed up with the blame culture and the need to sue for the slightest thing and they are seeing you as another person that has had an accident through their own fault and feel the need to lay the blame at someone elses feet.

Hope you have a good recovery and get back out playing soon.............:thup:


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## triple_bogey (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			A couple of quetions for you.

Why was the accident not reported as soon as it happened? how did you get to hospital? Did you walk off the course?

Your failure to report the ice could have resulted in the next group to slip if the area was dangerous. The club cannot be expected to do anything if they did not know about the ice.
		
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Good points!!


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			A couple of quetions for you.

Why was the accident not reported as soon as it happened? how did you get to hospital? Did you walk off the course?

Your failure to report the ice could have resulted in the next group to slip if the area was dangerous. The club cannot be expected to do anything if they did not know about the ice.
		
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Yes those are good points. After they had finished laughing and telling me to 'walk it off' I managed to twist my foot back to a forward facing direction and hobbled to the nearest point a vehicle could get into and was driven to the hospital from there. By that time the only 'official' at the club was the girl behind the bar so it wasnt reported until the next day .


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Yes those are good points. I hobbled to the nearest point a vehicle could get into and was driven to the hospital from there. By that time the only 'official' at the club was the girl behind the bar so it wasnt reported until the next day .
		
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So the slip may not have been tha actual cause of the broken ankle, but your attempts to hobble back (presumably some distance) on frosty ground could have caused the damage. 

Did your playing partners (the members of the club) not have the Club  ICE details in their phone? - I would have thought the best course (   ) of action would have been to call the ambulance and the club house and get a buggy to trasnport you back to the car park.

I am not surprised the insurers are taking issue if the matter was not reported at the time


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2013)

The club didn't handle it brilliantly BUT the very fear of being sued probably made them seek legal advice asap and hence their reaction.

Two wrongs don't make a right and pursuing them through the courts for an accident (they happen you know) just adds to the sue/defend culture.

I know of 3 female golfers who have either slipped on sleepers around a tee or down the slopes coming off greens. Two wrists and one ankle broken and never ever the glimmer of a thought that blame should be attributed anywhere and compensation sought.

It just doesn't sit right with me and I couldn't do it.


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## Yer Maw (Mar 21, 2013)

Without having read any of the other comments I am of the opinion that you are wrong to sue.  You couldn't gauge a slippery surpface when you see it and apply common sense.  Health and Safety laws exist to try and factor in all forms of stupidity because of people like yourself who are always looking to blame someone for an 'accident'. 
I am not going to resort to derogatory comments or a slanging match but this disgusts me.


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## BTatHome (Mar 21, 2013)

I doubt the course management did anything but act exactly like the insurer instructed them to. In this day and age any 'gift' like those you mentioned could have been seen as an admission of guilt.


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## Yer Maw (Mar 21, 2013)

and lets face it the only reason you are suing is to make money!


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## Andy (Mar 21, 2013)

Since you never reported said accident on the day I'd say go and take a run and jump.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 21, 2013)

I just hope your not a member of my club.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

So many of you would change your mind in a hurry if it was you.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			I just hope your not a member of my club.
		
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clearly not you'll no doubt be relieved to hear.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 21, 2013)

I have slipped and fell many a time, my own fault not the courses. You'll now be blamed for courses being closed for sake a touch of frost.


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			So many of you would change your mind in a hurry if it was you.
		
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I think you have already made your point clear on this matter. It is never your fault and you will always try and blame someone else and if there is a financial gain to be had then even better.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

BTatHome said:



			I doubt the course management did anything but act exactly like the insurer instructed them to. In this day and age any 'gift' like those you mentioned could have been seen as an admission of guilt.
		
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Dont do anything. Don't offer him anything. Don't speak to him.  To me that is a bigger sign of guilt that a courtesy phone call would have been.


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## Qwerty (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			So many of you would change your mind in a hurry if it was you.
		
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I wouldn't, and it has happened to me.


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 21, 2013)

If everyone who fell on a golf course, ice or not sued then we wouldn't be able to play anywhere. Green fee's would rise, membership costs would rise.

I had an incident playing football on a wet pitch, tore my cruciate ligament, ended up losing my job, did I sue? No, cos it was an accident, it was my decision to play, no one forced me on the pitch in the rain.

And I find it hard to believe that you managed to twist your foot back into position and walk to the nearest road.


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



*Just then I noticed a change in state of the ground.* A massive area of solid ice where undrained water had frozen over. It didn't look any different because it has a layer of frost but it was like an ice rink underfoot.
		
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This, for me, shows that you were aware of the potential danger and chose to carry on.
If you hadn't noticed a change then I think you may have had a case but you clearly knew there was ice/frost/slippy ground around.
I had an incident at work once. Some hydraulic fluid had leaked out of a Forklift truck overnight. The Facilities Manager had seen the leak when he opened the Warehouse but hadn't got round to doing anything about it.
I came round the corner and went my length on the fluid, damaging my knee to extent of needing 3 operations on it.
Now in that case I was able to claim as I had no knowledge of the spill, there was no warning and there was no way I could have known.
It could be said that you must have had a reasonable idea that there was a possibility of going A over T so should have taken appropriate care. 
This accident could have happened on a rainy day with a similar outcome. The club can't close the course just because there's a possibility that someone might conceivably slip and hurt themselves.

Having said that I, too, have had a broken ankle - and a bad one at that - so I feel your pain and hope you recover well...


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			I have slipped and fell many a time, my own fault not the courses. You'll now be blamed for courses being closed for sake a touch of frost.
		
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Honestly I can accept your point of view on this as far as  claiming or not claiming is concerned but that statement above is utter garbage.


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## bluetoon (Mar 21, 2013)

This gets better and better :rofl:

I think iv'e got this right.

You chose to play golf over a 3mile stretch in freezing conditions with obvious frost on the ground. You lost your footing on a patch of ice, never told the club till the next day and got the hump because they didn't send you flowers.

You have my sympathy - Not


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Dont do anything. Don't offer him anything. Don't speak to him.  To me that is a bigger sign of guilt that a courtesy phone call would have been.
		
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No sign of guilt - probably an instruction from their insurer who faces a potential payout and dont want them to do anything that can be wrongly construed by you, 

I wish you a quick recovery from your injury BUT

 I hope you have insurance to cover their legal costs.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I think you have already made your point clear on this matter. It is never your fault and you will always try and blame someone else and if there is a financial gain to be had then even better.
		
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Another thing I never said.

Why do you take my point and twist it to an extreme? What is the need? Don't you think that your opinion is strong enough given the situation being discussed without resorting to such a childish retort?


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Your just highlighting the problem with this new american style culture we are getting. HE chose to go out and play on an icy course and he got injured from doing it. While I have the up most sympathy for his injury and hope he makes a full recovery, it was the risk he took by going out onto a frozen course. 

If came up your garden path and slipped over on ice, would you be happy if I sued you for Â£20K for loss of earnings, pain and suffering? No I thought not.....:mmm:
		
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If I invited you to my garden and it was in condition that caused you injury it dsnt matter what I would want. There is law and according to it you have right to sue me. If due to current laws I was found responsible so be it, despite me hating you afterwards.
If you knew I was insured though and that you would get Â£20k for it but my insurance would go Â£20 more expensive per year would you pass by ? "No I thought not.....:mmm:"




			However if this is the case im sure there are some clubs that cant afford the insurance,so 
take the risk.
		
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That would be example of total irresponsibility. Insurance is exactly for situations you can't predict but might be responsible for.




			So going on your theory then every local council should shut every road down as soon as the first signs of ice start to appear, just in case someone was to drive on them before they had chance to grit them. As you are putting it, people can't make a judgement call by them self and need someone to guide them to stop them having accidents.
		
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But council IS responsible for road conditions. You pay tax to be able to drive and if it was found that they could have done something to prevent accident then they are (at least partially)  responsible for it. 




			I actually slipped down a bunker and broke my ankle 18 months ago. No work (so no pay) for 7 weeks! I didn't claim.
		
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why? and if you knew that you should get few grand from insurance would you still not do it. why ? what is so noble about it ?

It almost seems like there should be shame if you use your rights. Its not people to blame for silly claims but laws that make those claims go through. And since silly claims are valid, insurance is absolute must. (not saying this claim is silly)

The case is not whether club is fully responsible but partially responsible. If they are found partially responsible they don't pay anything out their pocket. So why pass on occasion ?

As I said before I would prob go and talk first but seeing OP's last post I would defo proceed now.

I just don't get this discussion. 
I do laugh hearing about ppl getting $2M because coffee was hot in a cup but not at people but system that makes compensation so frikin high. 

I have only made one claim so far when I was hit by a car (mine got wrecked afterwards). Some guy said I should go to doctor and get papers but except for pain in the neck I felt ok. Without doctor visit my lawyers managed to claim Â£1k for health injury (no evidence). With any paperwork I would get plenty more. Guy who hit me lost his discounts anyway. With 'american blame mentality' I would have got few grand more. Its lost opportunity imo.

I do pick up money when I find them on the street. I do use coupons in supermarkets. I would sue insured company if I found I can get big bucks.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

bluetoon said:



			This gets better and better :rofl:

I think iv'e got this right.

You chose to play golf over a 3mile stretch in freezing conditions with obvious frost on the ground. You lost your footing on a patch of ice, never told the club till the next day and got the hump because they didn't send you flowers.

You have my sympathy - Not
		
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No you haven't got it right.youve over simplified it, leaving out salient facts to suit your own agenda and youre not aware of other facts which would take me far too long to go into and which legally I daren't go into. But don't let that stop you rushing to judgement.

The validity of my claim isn't up for debate here, because it isn't decided by anyone on here.Its decided by an impartial and independent person of legal standing (if it ever goes that far) I was seeking opinion on whether it was right to claim or not in my circumstance, albeit there isn't the space here to fully explore all the circumstances. Nonetheless the answer seems to be a resounding NO.


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## jammag (Mar 21, 2013)

I read a few of the opening posts and seen it has gone 12 pages but I am not reading all these opinions but I will state a couple of things. 

1) The club was making money out of this somehow either membership or green fee, if they are offering the facility they are deeming that it is fit for purpose. 

2) I feel an injury of this kind is an unfortunate incident but their should be insurance in place to cover this, if the insurance does not cover this then I feel suing maybe the other option as it was not his fault and I am sure he may have lost some earnings. Whilst this may not seem the right thing to do for a lot of people being that individual in that situation I think a lot of people may view that route.

3) If this kind of injury happened at work then I am sure most people would be saying there should be some kind of compensation as it wasnt fit for purpose.

4) At what point is any kind of injury deemed to be fit for an insurance claim because we all know we run the risk of getting hit by a golf ball, so what is the difference as most would claim for that if it caused significant damage. What next the green keepers lawn mower runs over your foot cutting it to shreads but because the sign says green keepers have right of way then you dont have a leg to stand on? 

Yes its all unfortunate but I am sure something like a little gesture from the club would have kept the peace and he may not even considered claiming as it could be you know what maybe you shouldnt of gone out but we let you and you was happy to, heres a couple months free subscription we hope you get better soon. It shows they care OP probably happy with that and every one moves on.


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Sajkox - what Tax do you pay to be able to drive?

Road Tax was abolished years ago and replaced by Vehicle Excise Duty, based on emitions, as some vehicles have no or low emissions they have no duty to pay


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			I read a few of the opening posts and seen it has gone 12 pages but I am not reading all these opinions but I will state a couple of things. 

1) The club was making money out of this somehow either membership or green fee, if they are offering the facility they are deeming that it is fit for purpose. 

2) I feel an injury of this kind is an unfortunate incident but their should be insurance in place to cover this, if the insurance does not cover this then I feel suing maybe the other option as it was not his fault and I am sure he may have lost some earnings. Whilst this may not seem the right thing to do for a lot of people being that individual in that situation I think a lot of people may view that route.

3) If this kind of injury happened at work then I am sure most people would be saying there should be some kind of compensation as it wasnt fit for purpose.

4) At what point is any kind of injury deemed to be fit for an insurance claim because we all know we run the risk of getting hit by a golf ball, so what is the difference as most would claim for that if it caused significant damage. What next the green keepers lawn mower runs over your foot cutting it to shreads but because the sign says green keepers have right of way then you dont have a leg to stand on? 

Yes its all unfortunate but I am sure something like a little gesture from the club would have kept the peace and he may not even considered claiming as it could be you know what maybe you shouldnt of gone out but we let you and you was happy to, heres a couple months free subscription we hope you get better soon. It shows they care OP probably happy with that and every one moves on.
		
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In response to Point 2 - why is not the OP's fault? he should have looked where he was going, he noticed a change in conditions and chose to walk there. The accident is his fault not the clubs


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			I

2) I feel an injury of this kind is an unfortunate incident but their should be insurance in place to cover this, if the insurance does not cover this then I feel suing maybe the other option *as it was not his fault*

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So who's fault is it?
The problem is that he knew that it was icy, he saw a change in the ground conditions but continued to play/walk over the ice.

Another example could be someone deciding to run down a hill in a park. Run downhill and unless you're very careful you're going to fall over and possibly do yourself some damage - is it the fault of whoever owns the park? No it's down to the person who decides to run down it.
A Golf Course is playable even when frozen - ok it's not enjoyable but it's playable.
Knowing that it's icy and seeing an icy patch but still walking over it is like running down that hill....


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## jammag (Mar 21, 2013)

If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it, if this is not done then the club is 100% responsible in my eyes. 

Running down a steep hill in a public place is a little different you have not paid for the privilege of doing such activity and I am sure there will be signs knowing our health and safety saying beware steep hill or something of that kind.

If you went to your local swimming pool and they take your money 99% of the pool is fine but in 1 corner theres a harsh chemical causing a problem if you enter that area. They dont tell you about this and you get a serious allergy or reaction to said chemical then you going to say oh actually I chose to swim so its my fault or would you be up in arms if it was you or your child who has been seriously hurt by this?


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Imurg said:



			So who's fault is it?
The problem is that he knew that it was icy, he saw a change in the ground conditions but continued to play/walk .
		
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let me clarify that. I became aware of the change in underfoot conditions and immediately fell. I had no time to make an informed decision to carry on at that point. The decision for me to go no further was made for me.

it wasn't 'icy' up to that point. It was 'frosty' There is a clear distinction between the two conditions.

'Frosty' I was happy to play. 'Icy' I should not have been  exposed to and it was very easy for them to ensure I wasn't. In fact their winter check list insisted upon it.


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## Naybrains (Mar 21, 2013)

Very much in Craw's camp on this one. 
I'm daft enough to run a Bus & Coach company, don't get me started......
36 vehicles each fitted with a Â£2500 cctv system - why? Because of the where there's a blame there's a claim culture we live in.


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it, if this is not done then the club is 100% responsible in my eyes. 

Running down a steep hill in a public place is a little different you have not paid for the privilege of doing such activity and I am sure there will be signs knowing our health and safety saying beware steep hill or something of that kind.

If you went to your local swimming pool and they take your money 99% of the pool is fine but in 1 corner theres a harsh chemical causing a problem if you enter that area. They dont tell you about this and you get a serious allergy or reaction to said chemical then you going to say oh actually I chose to swim so its my fault or would you be up in arms if it was you or your child who has been seriously hurt by this?
		
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Thats nonsense - If your opinion is correct then we all need to forget about playing on golf courses and will have to play on simulators, one at a time just in case anyone else is around and might get injured. A Golf course will have natural obstacles and potential dangers, Hills, slopes, potholes, mud and water - are you seriously suggesting that these should be fenced off and/or warnings posted on each tee?

The OP KNEW it was frosty and icy and chose to proceed, he took the risk and the Course should not be liable for his actions in walking down a slippy slope.


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## User20205 (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			let me clarify that. I became aware of the change in underfoot conditions and immediately fell. I had no time to make an informed decision to carry on at that point. The decision for me to go no further was made for me.

it wasn't 'icy' up to that point. It was 'frosty' The is a clear distinction between the two conditions.
		
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I may have missed this earlier, but what spikes did you have in? 

There is a sign at my place that recommends metal spikes during the winter for this very reason. May as well recommend wellies at the moment though


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

The Course will hopefully run the Defence of Non Volenti Fit Injuria

In the law of Negligence, the precept that denotes that a person who knows and comprehends the peril and voluntarily exposes himself or herself to it, although not negligent in doing so, is regarded as engaging in an assumption of the risk and is precluded from a recovery for an injury ensuing therefrom


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## upsidedown (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it, if this is not done then the club is 100% responsible in my eyes.
		
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You'd not be a winter sports fan then?


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

So much on this thread that sums up what is wrong with people these days.

If the opening poster was related to me or a pal of mine I really would despair.

Pish,utter pish.


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it, if this is not done then the club is 100% responsible in my eyes. 

Running down a steep hill in a public place is a little different you have not paid for the privilege of doing such activity and I am sure there will be signs knowing our health and safety saying beware steep hill or something of that kind.

If you went to your local swimming pool and they take your money 99% of the pool is fine but in 1 corner theres a harsh chemical causing a problem if you enter that area. They dont tell you about this and you get a serious allergy or reaction to said chemical then you going to say oh actually I chose to swim so its my fault or would you be up in arms if it was you or your child who has been seriously hurt by this?
		
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Nowhere is 100% safe - no golf course anywhere....
Do we now have to close all golf courses or put up thousands of signs to warn everyone about every single thing taht can do us harm over an area of a couple of hundred acres.....? How many can you think of.

Your swimming pool case is so different - you wouldn't expect there to be a dangerous chemical, you couldn't know that it would be there so you would sue the pool for everything they've got - no question

In the OP he KNEW it was icy, he NOTICED a change in the ground, he knew there was a risk of slippage and he carried on...who's at fault.?

What happened to people taking responsibilty for their actions?


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			The Course will hopefully run the Defence of Non Volenti Fit Injuria

In the law of Negligence, the precept that denotes that a person who knows and comprehends the peril and voluntarily exposes himself or herself to it, although not negligent in doing so, is regarded as engaging in an assumption of the risk and is precluded from a recovery for an injury ensuing therefrom
		
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Almost correct but the landowner first has to ensure that they have taken reasonable steps to minimise the risk. They had a risk management strategy in place for that very purpose covering the very circumstances and conditions on the course that day and they didnt follow it.


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## Naybrains (Mar 21, 2013)

Wind up, surely.


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Almost correct but the landowner first has to ensure that they have taken reasonable steps to minimise the risk. They had a risk management strategy in place for that very purpose covering the very circumstances and conditions on the course that day and they didnt follow it.
		
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What steps did you take to minimise the risk?

How far did you hobble back in the dangerous conditions?


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## MadAdey (Mar 21, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Another thing I never said.

Why do you take my point and twist it to an extreme? What is the need? Don't you think that your opinion is strong enough given the situation being discussed without resorting to such a childish retort?
		
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But all the way through this thread you keep saying it is the fault of the golf club and not the OP's so he should take them for every penny he can. So is that not you saying it is OK to put the blame at the feet of someone else, when you should really be taking some responsibility for your own actions? 

If I have misunderstood the point you have been making the please accept my apology as I am not trying to make you look bad and single you out....:thup:


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			The OP KNEW it was frosty and icy and chose to proceed, he took the risk and the Course should not be liable for his actions in walking down a slippy slope.
		
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Dont want to put words into anyones mouth ... so ... when I go to play and there is snow - I expect snow not hidden frozen lake that can break my neck. If there was standing water that got frozen and covered in snow I would expect it to be marked / signed or hole  / club closed. YES.
The only risk I'm taking knowingly every single time on golf course is of being killed by a..holes that don't shout fore. I am aware of that risk. Yet if I was hit I would sue. Different matter though.


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## kmdmr1 (Mar 21, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Sorry no sympathy. You made the choice to play, no one forced you to go out at gun point. You knew its frosty, you should have known that frost will mean ice in places therefore if you were a silly billy who slipped on the ice then I guess that's nobody's fault bar your own. We really are becoming a chase the $$$ country as well and its sad. 

All your going to do is put up the fees for next year as guess who will foot the bill for an increased insurance premium next year if the insurance company does agree to accept liability.

Other than that I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you get back onto the course soon.
		
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I am with Craw on this,your choice to play,
If more people start claiming, clubs will close the course with the slightest hint of frost,


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## Qwerty (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it,
		
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Ill be playing football on Sunday on the local council pitches, I'll also be paying for the privilege. Do I need to make sure that the muddy parts of the pitch are cordoned off? Otherwise some of us could slip or fall.


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## jammag (Mar 21, 2013)

I am a big fan of winter sports, but what I am trying to say is the club knew it was icy and took money from him one way or another. Now all it may of taken is a sign at the start of the round or the person who signed them in says look we dont recommend you go out as it is quite slippery in places. Thats them covered. 

I know at my club if its frozen or dangerous they shut the course. I also know during winter months that the people that tee off at 7am every week had to be told they could not because it was too dark during some winter days and it was stupid to be out so stopped them going out and said if you want to play you are going to have to tee off a little later when it is lighter.

The swimming pool I think is a good scenario to use, you know full well there is chemicals in the pool and you would hope if someone has checked the pool in the morning and tested how strong the chlorine is that they would then proceed to close it not just say well its ok as long as people hopefully dont swim through this bit of the pool.

I think its very easy to look at this situation and say we all love golf (most of the time) I cant believe you would risk doing this to your club. I realistically feel this is more than genuine case for the insurance to pay out in the world we live in at the minute, whether your agree with it or not but that is the case.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			What steps did you take to minimise the risk?

How far did you hobble back in the dangerous conditions?
		
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1. I wore the correct properly maintained footwear. I considered that the course was effected by frost but did not represent a risk I was uncomfortable with. The part where frost turned to sheet ice wasnt apparent until it was too late and given the state of all the holes up to that point wasn't something I considered.

2. I think I walked across two fairways, about 150 yards at most. I didn't break my ankle on that walk. It takes one hell of a force to break an ankle. You can't do it walking or hobbling.


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Yes those are good points. After they had finished laughing and telling me to 'walk it off' I managed to twist my foot back to a forward facing direction and hobbled to the nearest point a vehicle could get into and was driven to the hospital from there. By that time the only 'official' at the club was the girl behind the bar so it wasnt reported until the next day .
		
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As there was nobody in the club other than a bar maid I will assume it was late when you got there. Had the Pro left for the day?

What time did you arrive at the Club, when did you tee off and what time did you reach the 10th Tee?

During December it is conceivable that the temperature dropped below freezing whilst you were on the course, something the club could not anticipate and they would therefore have complied with any risk assessments


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Ill be playing football on Sunday on the local council pitches, I'll also be paying for the privilege. Do I need to make sure that the muddy parts of the pitch are cordoned off? Otherwise some of us could slip or fall. 

Click to expand...

watch the ball doesn't hit your head, they can kill you - ask Sir Awex


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			1. I wore the correct properly maintained footwear. I considered that the course was effected by frost but did not represent a risk I was uncomfortable with. The part where frost turned to sheet ice wasnt apparent until it was too late and given the state of all the holes up to that point wasn't something I considered.

2. I think I walked across two fairways, about 150 yards at most. I didn't break my ankle on that walk. It takes one hell of a force to break an ankle. You can't do it walking or hobbling.
		
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Your first point addresses my previous comment 

I suggest you discuss how easily an ankle can break when you have a follow up with your treating Consultant


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## Naybrains (Mar 21, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			watch the ball doesn't hit your head, they can kill you - ask Sir Awex 

Click to expand...

Very good


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## jammag (Mar 21, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Ill be playing football on Sunday on the local council pitches, I'll also be paying for the privilege. Do I need to make sure that the muddy parts of the pitch are cordoned off? Otherwise some of us could slip or fall. 

Click to expand...

Well to start off with I mentioned if you are making money from this then its your responsibility it is safe, hence why usually you pay your local council to use them facilities and they usually call it off with the slightest bit of frost or if it is in anyway harmful to safety, this would be the point the council are getting the money so take the action. 

So yeah I like your reply if you feel that way but responding to my quote in a way which I didnt mean so I apologise if I confused you or misled you into thinking this is the way I thought, but it really wasnt. As you are the one paying to use the facility not the one making money. Unless you are in some dodgy Italian betting scandal.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Qwerty said:



			Ill be playing football on Sunday on the local council pitches, I'll also be paying for the privilege. Do I need to make sure that the muddy parts of the pitch are cordoned off? Otherwise some of us could slip or fall. 

Click to expand...

They allow you to play on icebound pitches in Lancashire ?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			1. I wore the correct properly maintained footwear.
		
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With which sort of spikes in?


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## TheClaw (Mar 21, 2013)

Surely contending with the weather and environment is an obvious part of golf? Tripping over roots and branches, falling into water hazards, standing on rakes....why is ice different?


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			So much on this thread that sums up what is wrong with people these days.

If the opening poster was related to me or a pal of mine I really would despair.

Pish,utter pish.
		
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So you find it immoral to use your rights ? 



kmdmr1 said:



			I am with Craw on this,your choice to play,
If more people start claiming, clubs will close the course with the slightest hint of frost,
		
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I wanted to make a sarcasm but language limitations make it sound wrong. Will try other way:
No. People don't slip every time there is frost. No ppl don't break ankle every time they slip. No there is no reason to close in case of something unlikely to happen especially that you are insured. Yes. Club should be aware of course conditions.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			They allow you to play on icebound pitches in Lancashire ?
		
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They did in Kent.  We'd go out with the referee and look at it, if we were happy to play & he was happy to referee we got on with it, if we weren't we didn't.  I believe it used to be called personal responsibility, seems to have fallen out of fashion recently.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			I suggest you discuss how easily an ankle can break when you have a follow up with your treating Consultant 

Click to expand...

I have a traumatic and heavy fall with my full body weight on my left ankle, the foot turns to a jaunty angle momentarily and the pain is so fierce I feel sick and can barely put weight on it, yet your suggesting the ankle was broken on the 150 yard hobble where little or no weight was put on the said ankle ? Christ I hope they try and make that stick in my case. Laughable.


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 21, 2013)

sajkox said:



			Club should be aware of course conditions.
		
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So the club should know the condition of every square inch of every hole at any given point of the day? 

If you had ice overnight and the postman slipped on your path before you got out of bed, would you expect to be sued??


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			I have a traumatic and heavy fall with my full body weight on my left ankle, the foot turns to a jaunty angle momentarily and the pain is so fierce I feel sick and can barely put weight on it, yet your suggesting the ankle was broken on the 150 yard hobble where little or no weight was put on the said ankle ? Christ I hope they try and make that stick in my case. Laughable.
		
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It wont get as far as medical evidence and causation you will lose on liability


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## Birchy (Mar 21, 2013)

This could rival the Celtic vs Rangers thread the way its going :rofl:


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## scratch (Mar 21, 2013)

I've only read the OP, none of the comments.

My gut reaction is that we live in a compensation culture, people always seem to be on the lookout these days for someone else to blame. My view is that as a responsible person, we should be able to make up our own minds about the risks and take the necessary precautions. You knew what the conditions were like and made your decision to play accordingly.

ps....hope you are on the mend   :thup:


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			It wont get as far as medical evidence and causation you will lose on liability
		
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And will graciously accept that verdict if I do. Except I don't lose anything and claims agents on no win no fee rarely lose a case they have accepted. Time will tell.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2013)

jammag said:



			If you are taking money from someone paying then that facility should be 100% safe if not certain areas should be cordoned off accordingly or appropriate signs in place so you avoid it, if this is not done then the club is 100% responsible in my eyes.
		
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At my home course you have to cross a private road twice and a public road in 2 separate places.  At my previous club you had to cross a 60mph limit dual carriageway twice, four times if you were starting from the 10th.  On that basis are you suggesting that my current club needs a couple of zebra crossings and my previous one a couple of light controlled crossings before they take a green fee or membership fees off of anybody?  Of course not, we know the risks when we sign up and we know the risks when we choose to go out in icy conditions to play golf.


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

scratch said:



			I've only read the OP, none of the comments.

My gut reaction is that we live in a compensation culture, people always seem to be on the lookout these days for someone else to blame. My view is that as a responsible person, we should be able to make up our own minds about the risks and take the necessary precautions. You knew what the conditions were like and made your decision to play accordingly.

ps....hope you are on the mend   :thup:
		
Click to expand...

I do understand your view. 
Till date I wouldn't even considered sue if it as me. But this thread made me thinking and I just don't see anything wrong with it.
If I was to sue someone that has no insurance and that would ruin them I would not proceed. This is different though.

The case I mentioned before: $2M for burn from spoiled coffee as there was no mark 'hot contents' on the cup - yes it sounds silly to even consider claiming it. Its insane claim was found legit. Its crazy how much was claimed. And in the end : It was smart to sue


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			And will graciously accept that verdict if I do. *Except I don't lose anything* and claims agents on no win no fee rarely lose a case they have accepted. Time will tell.
		
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Apart from your balance when walking on ice


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			And will graciously accept that verdict if I do. Except I don't lose anything and claims agents on no win no fee rarely lose a case they have accepted. Time will tell.
		
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If there on a no win no fee agreement what success fee are they charging? If its 100% then they reckon its a 50/50 case. Not quite as strong as you think ;-). 

Are you using a claims management company or Solicitors?. The claims management companies will take the claim so they can SELL you onto a firm of solicitors at a later stage.

The Solicitors will have advised you its a decent case to sign you up to a Conditional Fee Agreement (no win no fee) NOW as the rules regarding these and legal costs change on the 1st April this year and they need to sign up as many cases as possible prior to that date and then hope that insurers will settle. 

Would be interested to know which firm you have instructed and which insurer the Defendants have.

Would also be prepared to wager Â£5 that you lose.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Big_Rick78 said:



			Apart from your balance when walking on ice
		
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On that note I don't think there is any need for further contribution from me on this thread.

Cheers to all who contributed. It's certainly food for thought.


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2013)

Has anyone considered how impossible it would be to inspect a course, every inch, several times a day due to changing conditions and temperatures so that a fully grown adult can walk round ignoring the responsibility he has to look after his own health and safety! If you couldn't see that the frost turning to ice wasn't dangerous, and more care was needed, how the hell do you think someone else should spot it and think to treat you like a five year old and find a way, on what was probably a 15 acre field, to single you out to tell you?

I have badly injured myself on a sports field and it never crossed my mind that someone else should foot the bill for my time off and numerous operations, I knew the risk and accepted them. Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to shift the blame anywhere else and accept that accidents do happen and you know that a golf course is by its very nature a place to excersise care!


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			On that note I don't think there is any need for further contribution from me on this thread.

Cheers to all who contributed. It's certainly food for thought.
		
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Be sure to let us all know the outcome of your case though. 
Be careful out there.


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## Dodger (Mar 21, 2013)

Can I be brutally honest?

I hope you lose and break the other one in a stumble down the court stairs when leaving.

Mind you,that would no doubt start the process up all over again!


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## Big_Rick78 (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Can I be brutally honest?

I hope you lose and break the other one in a stumble down the court stairs when leaving.

Mind you,that would no doubt start the process up all over again!

Click to expand...






:rofl::rofl:


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			If there on a no win no fee agreement what success fee are they charging? If its 100% then they reckon its a 50/50 case. Not quite as strong as you think ;-). 

Are you using a claims management company or Solicitors?. The claims management companies will take the claim so they can SELL you onto a firm of solicitors at a later stage.

The Solicitors will have advised you its a decent case to sign you up to a Conditional Fee Agreement (no win no fee) NOW as the rules regarding these and legal costs change on the 1st April this year and they need to sign up as many cases as possible prior to that date and then hope that insurers will settle. 

Would be interested to know which firm you have instructed and which insurer the Defendants have.

Would also be prepared to wager Â£5 that you lose.
		
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Cant really answer a fair bit of that as it might identify the precise case and i want to avoid that.

Suffice to say that I have a legally binding contract which ensures I don't pay anything to anyone if the  case is lost and there is a percentage fee due to the agent if I win


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## stevie_r (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Can I be brutally honest?

I hope you lose and break the other one in a stumble down the court stairs when leaving.

Mind you,that would no doubt start the process up all over again!

Click to expand...

straight out of the snooker ball in a sock school of sympathy


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Can I be brutally honest?

I hope you lose and break the other one in a stumble down the court stairs when leaving.

Mind you,that would no doubt start the process up all over again!

Click to expand...

youre a right barrel of laughs aren't you ?


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Cant really answer a fair bit of that as it might identify the precise case and i want to avoid that.

Suffice to say that I have a legally binding contract which ensures I don't pay anything to anyone if the  case is lost and there is a percentage fee due to the agent if I win
		
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So you are with a claims management company, NOT a firm of solicitors - I hope the After the event insurance they have got you to take out is worth the paper its written on.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			So you are with a claims management company, NOT a firm of solicitors - I hope the After the event insurance they have got you to take out is worth the paper its written on.
		
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Nothing for you ( or me ) to worry about but thanks anyway. Do people really enter into these things without asking 'what if I lose'


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Nothing for you ( or me ) to worry about but thanks anyway. Do people really enter into these things without asking 'what if I lose'
		
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Yes they do - Resolving the fallout from them is how I pay for my Course fees!!.


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			youre a right barrel of laughs aren't you ? 

Click to expand...

But on this issue he probably echoes the sentiments of the majority!


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

few things I haven't considered before.
My assumptions were made on a fact that insurance covers everything. but am I right to think that GC would still need to pay lawyers costs ? If so then it changes my view a little bit.

Again - personally I would go and have a chat, Or in current situation - send a letter.
I'm all after using your right to sue as long as its not causing damage to the club (which I believe is possible)


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## jpenno (Mar 21, 2013)

sajkox said:



			few things I haven't considered before.
My assumptions were made on a fact that insurance covers everything. but am I right to think that GC would still need to pay lawyers costs ? If so then it changes my view a little bit.

Again - personally I would go and have a chat, Or in current situation - send a letter.
I'm all after using your right to sue as long as its not causing damage to the club (which I believe is possible)
		
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The Golf Course have public liability insurance and this will cover their legal fees, subject to them having to pay the policy excess which could be upto Â£5k, Their insurance premiums will increase whislt the claim is pending and they may have new clauses and conditions inserted before next years renewal.

The Golf course will be able to recover their legal costs when they win from either the OP or his own legal expense insurance policy, there are however, several insurance companies who are currently refusing to pay out on lost claims and/or in financial problems and may not be around when this claim comes to court


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## Colin2324 (Mar 21, 2013)

chrisd said:



			But on this issue he probably echoes the sentiments of the majority!
		
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The sentiments of the majority was precisely what I was looking for when I posted. I have no problem accepting the views on this thread. Be a bit silly posting it if I wasnt prepared for the views to aired.


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## sajkox (Mar 21, 2013)

jpenno said:



			The Golf Course have public liability insurance and this will cover their legal fees, subject to them having to pay the policy excess which could be upto Â£5k, Their insurance premiums will increase whislt the claim is pending and they may have new clauses and conditions inserted before next years renewal.

The Golf course will be able to recover their legal costs when they win from either the OP or his own legal expense insurance policy, there are however, several insurance companies who are currently refusing to pay out on lost claims and/or in financial problems and may not be around when this claim comes to court
		
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lol I would feel like donk if I went to sue knowing they will loose 5k due to me slipping :O
still have a letter in my mind that I think would help sort things out.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			The sentiments of the majority was precisely what I was looking for when I posted. I have no problem accepting the views on this thread. Be a bit silly posting it if I wasnt prepared for the views to aired.
		
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You certainly know how to galvanise opinion. I'd be interested in what you would post in answer to someone else who had asked your question


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			You certainly know how to galvanise opinion. I'd be interested in what you would post in answer to someone else who had asked your question
		
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I don't believe I could ever be accused of being hypocritical. Someone in identical circumstances to me would have my support. Why would my position be anything other than that ?


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

jpenno said:



			The Golf Course have public liability insurance and this will cover their legal fees, subject to them having to pay the policy excess which could be upto Â£5k, Their insurance premiums will increase whislt the claim is pending and they may have new clauses and conditions inserted before next years renewal.

The Golf course will be able to recover their legal costs when they win from either the OP or his own legal expense insurance policy, there are however, several insurance companies who are currently refusing to pay out on lost claims and/or in financial problems and may not be around when this claim comes to court
		
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 Not sure if you are plucking figures out of the air there but accept a Â£5k excess  and they are asking for trouble and would be as well not being insured. I suspect its closer to Â£500 excess on a Â£1000 premium and a hefty increase in the premium or refusal to renew if they lose, but now I am also guessing. Someone may know the ballpark. I certainly don't but Â£5k makes no sense and I would actually be horrified if that was their level of exposure in the case.

However, one of the points I was eager to make was that the club took the case down this route, whether by accident or design or by external instructions and they could STILL stop it if they did now what they should have done back then and showed some damn common courtesy and concern.


if I was a club secretary looking at a Â£5k loss on a 50/50 claim I'd have chucked a free membership (gratuity without prejudice) at it and see if that didnt fix it. It certainly would have fixed it but it doesn't look likely now. Â£5k wil ruin them and I don't believe for a minute they will have left themselves open to one claim shutting them down. They wont talk to me. I really wish they would.


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## sajkox (Mar 22, 2013)

Let's try, shall I ? (please bare in mind Im not eng native and its not supposed to be serious )

"Dir Sir/Madam and Mister overpaid lawyer (ha!).

I have no intention in pursuing legal action against yourselves in regard to myself breaking ankle on slippery surface while playing golf on your course (Until you make me :>)
I would like to note though that this unfortunate incident could have been avoided if (...blah blah blah it is your fault in a bit...)
I understand you felt obligated to contact your lawyers in fear of me making a claim, but most likely it already cost you more that I would have found sufficient compensation (for, lets face it, my own mistake).

Please bear in mind I do not want fellow golfers to get into my situation, weather/course conditions staying as is. Therefore I would kindly ask for you to consider (...blah blah blah some changes to avoid that...).

If appropriate actions to avoid that were taken I will sleep better at night (and will sing no further actions agreement or sth). 
I will leave matter of compensation to you and have no expectations (however wouldn't mind 10 years free membership, with free meal and foot massage after round).

Hope to hear from you soon,
Golfer

PS.
if I hear from your lawyer again I will kill neighbour's dog and will sue you just for the sake of it
PS2.
would prefer to avoid it though as really enjoy playing your course"

voila. ur welcome 
btw let us know how things develop


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

sajkox said:



			Let's try, shall I ? (please bare in mind Im not eng native and its not supposed to be serious )

"Dir Sir/Madam and Mister overpaid lawyer (ha!).

I have no intention in pursuing legal action against yourselves in regard to myself breaking ankle on slippery surface while playing golf on your course (Until you make me :>)
I would like to note though that this unfortunate incident could have been avoided if (...blah blah blah it is your fault in a bit...)
I understand you felt obligated to contact your lawyers in fear of me making a claim, but most likely it already cost you more that I would have found sufficient compensation (for, lets face it, my own mistake).

Please bear in mind I do not want fellow golfers to get into my situation, weather/course conditions staying as is. Therefore I would kindly ask for you to consider (...blah blah blah some changes to avoid that...).

If appropriate actions to avoid that were taken I will sleep better at night (and will sing no further actions agreement or sth). 
I will leave matter of compensation to you and have no expectations (however wouldn't mind 10 years free membership, with free meal and foot massage after round).

Hope to hear from you soon,
Golfer

PS.
if I hear from your lawyer again I will kill neighbour's dog and will sue you just for the sake of it
PS2.
would prefer to avoid it though as really enjoy playing your course"

voila. ur welcome 
btw let us know how things develop
		
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tried it. Not those exact words obviously and not asking for anything in particular. Didnt mention the bit about  killing the dog either. Insurance company told me not to contact their client again or they would report me to everyone from the R&A to the police.


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## sajkox (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			tried it. Not those exact words obviously and not asking for anything in particular. Didnt mention the bit about  killing the dog either. Insurance company told me not to contact their client again or they would report me to everyone from the R&A to the police.
		
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lol its so awkward
So either you let insurance company know you willingly drop the case so that (hopefully) they allow you to play again. 
Or you have no option and continue :|
Its not you home course is it ? - nevermind read first post again


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## backwoodsman (Mar 22, 2013)

Have read through the entire thread and although I'm not a lawyer, I'd say it's not as straightforward as most seem to think.
Both the Occupiers Liability Act and the Health & Safety at Work Act place a degree of responsibility upon the owner/manager of premises for the safety of persons visiting those premises. This applies regardless of whether the visitor pays to enter (eg a green fee) or not. Or even whether the visitor is invited on to the premises or not.

But the crux of the matter is a word I don't think I've seen in the entire thread - which is "reasonable". Under both Acts there is a requirement to take "reasonable" action to prevent harm to persons using the premises. But also, they don't need to do more than is "reasonable". And add on to that, there is also a general presumption on an individual to take reasonable action to prevent harm to themselves. The hard bit is to determine what constitutes "reasonable" - which is why the lawyers exist and why no-win-no-fee companies keep "trying their liuck".

In this case, does that fact its generally frosty make the course unreasonably dangerous? Probably not. Is is it reasonable to assume  that in frosty weather there could be local icy patches. Probably. Is it reasonable to expect the club to inspect all the course to check? Probably not. Is it reasonable to close the course because there might be icy patches somewhere. Probably not. Is it reasonable to expect the club to sign every icy patch. Probably not. Overall, had the club acted reasonably? My view probably, therefore, does the OP have a valid claim for compensation- I doubt it.

But on the other hand, if there was a history of people regularly going a over t at a particular spot, it would put a whole different complexion on things and would change the meaning of what was reasonable in the circumstances.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

backwoodsman said:



			Have read through the entire thread and although I'm not a lawyer, I'd say it's not as straightforward as most seem to think.
Both the Occupiers Liability Act and the Health & Safety at Work Act place a degree of responsibility upon the owner/manager of premises for the safety of persons visiting those premises. This applies regardless of whether the visitor pays to enter (eg a green fee) or not. Or even whether the visitor is invited on to the premises or not.

But the crux of the matter is a word I don't think I've seen in the entire thread - which is "reasonable". Under both Acts there is a requirement to take "reasonable" action to prevent harm to persons using the premises. But also, they don't need to do more than is "reasonable". And add on to that, there is also a general presumption on an individual to take reasonable action to prevent harm to themselves. The hard bit is to determine what constitutes "reasonable" - which is why the lawyers exist and why no-win-no-fee companies keep "trying their liuck".

In this case, does that fact its generally frosty make the course unreasonably dangerous? Probably not. Is is it reasonable to assume  that in frosty weather there could be local icy patches. Probably. Is it reasonable to expect the club to inspect all the course to check? Probably not. Is it reasonable to close the course because there might be icy patches somewhere. Probably not. Is it reasonable to expect the club to sign every icy patch. Probably not. Overall, had the club acted reasonably? My view probably, therefore, does the OP have a valid claim for compensation- I doubt it.

But on the other hand, if there was a history of people regularly going a over t at a particular spot, it would put a whole different complexion on things and would change the meaning of what was reasonable in the circumstances.
		
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Excellent summary without the vitriol.

just a couple,of points that might not be clear. The terrain changed from Frosty to ICY at the tenth hole for an area which was not a patch but which covered two or three of the most exposed holes at the upper level. The ice wasn't apparent to the naked eye and only made itself known when i stepped on to that part of the course and immediately fell.

The crux of the case is whether it was reasonable to expect an inspection of the course to detect the more dangerous terrain on those upper holes and take some action, or whether it was sufficient defence for the club that it was cold and frosty so we, the players, assumed the risk.There are other factors I can't go into but that's the basic choice. 

The club have a winter checklist which specifies very particularly, the action to be taken for ice on the course, be that patchy ice or the whole course covered in ice. They didn't carry out the procedures in their own checklist and that, aligned with the fact that they made key changes to procedure after my accident (all members and guests now have to sign a disclaimer which will exclude any further claims)has given confidence to my representative that the case will be won.

They tend not to take on 50/50 cases and whilst they haven't presented it to an QC as yet, they have incurred some expense taking the case on and in their words, they don't normally do that AND lose.


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 22, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Flippin grow a set man!
		
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I do not need to grow a set as you put it, I take it you didnt see the post then ?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2013)

Have we actually had an answer as to what type of spikes were being used in these frosty conditions, or should we just assume it was softspikes or a spikeless shoe, and as such, utterly inappropriate for the conditions?


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			l. The ice wasn't apparent to the naked eye and only made itself known when i stepped on to that part of the course and immediately fell.




.
		
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But you expect someone from the golf club to be able to spot it with the naked eye, decide how dangerous it was and take action to stop an accident?


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## thecraw (Mar 22, 2013)

sajkox said:



			Dont want to put words into anyones mouth ... so ... when I go to play and there is snow - I expect snow not hidden frozen lake that can break my neck. If there was standing water that got frozen and covered in snow I would expect it to be marked / signed or hole  / club closed. YES.
The only risk I'm taking knowingly every single time on golf course is of being killed by a..holes that don't shout fore. I am aware of that risk. *Yet if I was hit I would sue*. Different matter though.
		
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What a sad pathetic statement. 

I've been hit numerous times, hit on the back of the neck which floored me. Hit on the back and hit on my spare tyre. All of which were bloody sore but I've never once thought I'll sue you and get some money. Absolutely pathetic mate. Honestly man. I really am saddened to read some of these views and attitudes.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I've been hit numerous times, hit on the back of the neck which floored me. Hit on the back and hit on my spare tyre.
		
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Ever thought that someone didn't like you?


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## thecraw (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Not sure if you are plucking figures out of the air there but accept a Â£5k excess  and they are asking for trouble and would be as well not being insured. I suspect its closer to Â£500 excess on a Â£1000 premium and a hefty increase in the premium or refusal to renew if they lose, but now I am also guessing. Someone may know the ballpark. I certainly don't but Â£5k makes no sense and I would actually be horrified if that was their level of exposure in the case.

However, one of the points I was eager to make was that the club took the case down this route, whether by accident or design or by external instructions and they could STILL stop it if they did now what they should have done back then and showed some damn common courtesy and concern.


*if I was a club secretary looking at a Â£5k loss on a 50/50 claim I'd have chucked a free membership (gratuity without prejudice) at it and see if that didnt fix it. It certainly would have fixed it but it doesn't look likely now*. Â£5k wil ruin them and I don't believe for a minute they will have left themselves open to one claim shutting them down. They wont talk to me. I really wish they would.
		
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I think we can now see your true colours shining through!


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## richy (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Not sure if you are plucking figures out of the air there but accept a Â£5k excess  and they are asking for trouble and would be as well not being insured. I suspect its closer to Â£500 excess on a Â£1000 premium and a hefty increase in the premium or refusal to renew if they lose, but now I am also guessing. Someone may know the ballpark. I certainly don't but Â£5k makes no sense and I would actually be horrified if that was their level of exposure in the case.

However, one of the points I was eager to make was that the club took the case down this route, whether by accident or design or by external instructions and they could STILL stop it if they did now what they should have done back then and showed some damn common courtesy and concern.


*if I was a club secretary looking at a Â£5k loss on a 50/50 claim I'd have chucked a free membership (gratuity without prejudice) at it and see if that didnt fix it.* It certainly would have fixed it but it doesn't look likely now. Â£5k wil ruin them and I don't believe for a minute they will have left themselves open to one claim shutting them down. They wont talk to me. I really wish they would.
		
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They probably want you as far away from their course as humanly possible, I know I would.


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## DCB (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			if I was a club secretary looking at a Â£5k loss on a 50/50 claim I'd have chucked a free membership (gratuity without prejudice) at it and see if that didnt fix it. It certainly would have fixed it but it doesn't look likely now. Â£5k wil ruin them and I don't believe for a minute they will have left themselves open to one claim shutting them down. They wont talk to me. I really wish they would.
		
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A Â£5K excess isn't that high bearing in mind that this is a commercial policy we are talking about and not a domestic policy.

As for the Club not talking to you, they can't talk to you. They will be under instruction from their insurer not to talk directly to the claimant. It's the very same reason the Club couldn't talk to you at the start. As for chucking in a free membership to make it go away, that would be an admission of liability on their part, that's never going to happen.

If you did write to them and suggest some form of agreement by way of 'compensation' then you've probably played straight into their hands. Any approach like that should have been made via your representative and not directly from yourself however it was worded or implied.


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## Kellfire (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			But on this issue he probably echoes the sentiments of the majority!
		
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If the majority want the OP to fall and break his other ankle then the majority of this forum are scumbags.



chrisd said:



			But you expect someone from the golf club to be able to spot it with the naked eye, decide how dangerous it was and take action to stop an accident?
		
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Yes, definitely, the  greens keepers should have the means to determine the condition of the course and implement their own safety strategies which the OP has stated weren't followed.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 22, 2013)

thecraw said:



			What a sad pathetic statement. 

I've been hit numerous times, hit on the back of the neck which floored me. Hit on the back and hit on my spare tyre. All of which were bloody sore but I've never once thought I'll sue you and get some money. Absolutely pathetic mate. Honestly man. I really am saddened to read some of these views and attitudes.
		
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In my view it will all depend on the severity of the injury.
In the event recently where the guy got a Â£400,000 payment for losing an eye.
So are you saying Craw if you lost an eye you would just except?
If i got hit and lost an eye,i would definatly be looking for compensation.
However being hit on the spare tyre and suffering no injury is totally different.


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## The Sclaffer (Mar 22, 2013)

pokerjoke said:



			In my view it will all depend on the severity of the injury.
In the event recently where the guy got a Â£400,000 payment for losing an eye.
So are you saying Craw if you lost an eye you would just except?
If i got hit and lost an eye,i would definatly be looking for compensation.
However being hit on the spare tyre and suffering no injury is totally different.
		
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Surely that would depend on the circumstances? Or do you see it as a "right"?


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## pokerjoke (Mar 22, 2013)

The Sclaffer said:



			Surely that would depend on the circumstances? Or do you see it as a "right"?
		
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In the case of losing an eye,wether it depended on the circumstances or not,i would try and claim something.
Purely because there must be something in place that protects us on the course.
Its surely up to lawyers to decide if i had a case,and a legitimate claim.
Of course it would be pathetic to claim for just being hit,and no serious injury[in Craws case].
But every case has to be taken on merit.
As has been said,golf clubs have insurance to protect themselves against such circumstances.
If they havnt,then they should be asking themselves why not.


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## Slab (Mar 22, 2013)

I was trying to think of similar circumstances but also removing my bias that may be present simply because itâ€™s a golf course (and this is a forum full of golfers who have emotional & financial ties with their chosen club)

Could only think of paying to enter a zoo or amusement park in terms of the physical scale and topography (although their manpower far exceeds any golf course but I think that would only affect what kind of assessment is carried out prior to accepting visitors/guests and wouldnâ€™t really determine whether or not to carry out an assessment at all)

So really trying to answer objectively what might I do?

Well if I paid and entered an amusement park and slipped on ice on an unmarked maintained grassed area and broke an ankle and found out later that the assessment procedure to be completed before admitting paying customers hadnâ€™t been followed that day, would I consider a claim? 10 times from 10 Yes I would! 
(which was different to my answer if it was for the course I play at)

So the question became one of, because its golf and I love golf, how responsible do I feel about the subsequent knock on effect to the club, the game and other members etc, if I should win Â£20k in an injury claim? (and is it right that I carry that responsibility) Obviously if thereâ€™s absolutely no effect to anyone else on a claim being made then no one would here would have an issue with the Op proceeding

From the outside the OP has plenty of opinion to do nothing, accept his part in the accident and ignore any other factors, some opinions seem to be because he doesnâ€™t deserve it and others because of what it might mean to themselves (golfers) and the game of golf in the future (and to be honest if I wanted the OP to reconsider because of what it might mean to me & my golf then some of the derisory comments arenâ€™t likely to help)

Bottom line for me is that because its golf it would make the decision to claim 10 times harder than if it was the local roller-coaster park and a lack of consideration from other parties (course, insures, legal folk etc) would only push me down the claims route


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

I have to say something because I believe some people are getting a bit out of line, whether in jest or not. Wishing the OP to fall and break his other ankle is out of line. But hoping he does not get a penny from this accident is OK, as I am in the 'it was his own choice to out there' group.

Like has already been pointed out the GC will have an excess to pay on the insurance and it has already been said that it is not like our household insurance with a Â£100 excess on it with it being a commercial policy. People saying Â£5K for it does not sound that outrageous to me. After all thsi insurance is more to cover them against large payouts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2013)

Birchy said:



			This could rival the Celtic vs Rangers thread the way its going :rofl:
		
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PLEASE...it was a Rangers thread.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2013)

A question for the OP.
If you had to pay for taking the case to court and risk losing money if you lost, would you still sue?

For what it's worth, I think it's wrong to try and make someone else take responsibility and therefor the blame for your inability to put one foot in front of the other and watch where you're going. 

Some people say we live in a sue culture copying the Americans, the reason the Americans sue is to claim back money to pay for their hospital treatment as they have to pay for everything over there.
We have the NHS and Homer 

I don't care if the law says you can sue and get free money......it's still wrong IMHO


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## stevie_r (Mar 22, 2013)

bobmac said:



			A question for the OP.
If you had to pay for taking the case to court and risk losing money if you lost, would you still sue?

For what it's worth, I think it's wrong to try and make someone else take responsibility and therefor the blame for your inability to put one foot in front of the other and watch where you're going.
		
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Well said Bob, well said


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Pretty much the reaction I expected given my OP, but a point worth debating I felt.

Just to clarify how I got to where I am now with this. I did not simply fall, break my ankle and see the Â£Â£Â£ signs. One of my playing partners reported the incident to the club the next day and gave them my contact details. I was expecting that someone might phone me and make sure I was okay etc etc, perhaps chuck Â£50 behind the bar for my next visit or offer a discounted membership at best.

My next contact came from the clubs insurers who vehemently denied that there was any liability admission, stated I was not to contact the club or play it until the 'matter' was resolved and subsequently recommended that I appoint a lawyer. Frankly they got my back up with their attitude

So basically no apology or show of concern from the club and a boorish bullying couple of emails from their insurers had me scrurrying along to a no win no fee agent to see where I stood. I dont think they handled it very well because of the compensation culture and the fear of me suing them and essentially their defensive attitude ensured that is what happened.

Yes I could have walked away and put it down to experience, and yes I still may not receive compensation and yes I see the case for me not receiving anything, and wont be grieving or angry if I dont.

But its not a clean cut as me simply walking out of xray right into a lawyers office. In fact if anyone forced it down the legal route it was the club and their insurers. Had the club NOT had liability insurance I wouldnt have even bothered taking it this far. My understanding is that there isnt much of a threat to their premiums should they lose but frankly I am not too concerned with that as they themselves put the case down that road when a phone call and a bunch of floors could have fixed it.
		
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To be honest, If I got that correspondence I would be a bit narked as well, especially if I had no intention of suing. However, I do think the letters you received are a direct result of the compensation culture many on here are against (and I'm not saying that's your fault). In an ideal world (or even one 10-15 years ago), the club would have contacted you to see how you were after your fall, maybe offered you a free round or similar when you are fit, not because they have to but because in polite society it might be a nice thing to do and everyone would be happy.

However, I fully expect that they didn't respond becasue they were told not to by their (or the insurance companies) lawyers. You see, they have no way of knowing if the injured party is going to claim but I suspect these days most do and contacting you to apologise and offer a free round would most probably be seen as an admission of some liability in the court room.

They probably told their insurance company who told them to say nothing and let them deal with it. It comes accross as the club handling it badly but in all liklihood, they are just doing as instructed by their legal team who are acting in a defensive manner expecting to claim to come their way.


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## Moquillo19 (Mar 22, 2013)

I've read the entire thread (I'm on holiday, nothing better to do!) and can't believe what a can of worms something like this has opened. It's been a fascinating read. I can see repercussions for all golfers on all courses and I don't think they'll be good.

At least twice a year we end up with a member of my course standing up to his waist in a drainage ditch/dyke cos he's tried to play a shot too close to the edge. The photographic evidence always causes much amusement but with cases like this happening I can see free relief coming from any lie within 3 foot of any ditch. Bunkers will have to go, I'm sure everyone's had an eyeful of sand. Cut all the trees down, I've seen balls ricocheting back off them. 

I know golf can be dangerous but I choose to play it. I know it's played on uneven ground often in the middle of mother nature. In Spain they said be careful of snakes in the rough. I DIDN'T GO NEAR IT. But if I had have and had been bitten, could I have sued the course? Isn't it normal to expect icy ground when playing golf in icy conditions and should we really be surprised and shocked if someone falls and injures themselves? I too hope OP makes a speedy recovery but don't believe he can hold anything against the course.
On the other hand, if a member of the greens staff ran me over in a mower whilst mucking about I'd sue the pants off them.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 22, 2013)

What i see in alot of the replys here are people are expressing what they think is right, unfortunatly in law what "WE" (i include myself) think is right , holds no sway ,

Ye must remember If you feel you have been hurt or agrieved by anothers actions you are entitled to seek recourse & recompence through the law & juidical system , that IS YOUR RIGHT , then let the judges decide .. 

Did we all feel the same contempt for the guy who lost an eye , thinking back,  i cant  remember did any of us say he was  wrong to claim ? (honestly cant remember) 

Ive broken alot of bones over the years playing soccer , all have been through  contact , i didnt sue because i accept its part of the game , IN MY OPINION , there is a massive difference in this case , 

the club deemed the course fit for play  & i accept they cant inspect every inch of the course , but if you ask any greenkeeper which part of his course floods most , dries out most or in this case freezes over most i would expect them to know .. because of this i would expect them to check these areas first & more thoroughly , if there had been heavy rain or heavy frost first ..  

Let me please state i think its the OP own fault & he shouldnt be suing , i wouldnt if i felt it was all or partly my own fault .. but from his later posts it seems the club have also aproached this incorrectly .. ie they should have contacted him personaly when they heard about it to  see what happened .. its common courtsey 

I know some wont agree with but hey im not a judge , its my opinion & in this case it doesnt stand for didly , what will happen will happen by the law of the land .. 

To the Op i wish you a speedy & full recovery , i hope whatever Â£Â£ you get is worth all the hassel & the different light people will see you in because of it ,

 because despite what you may think,  the friends that brought you along will be seen differently at their club from now on , their & others  attitude to bringing you or other guests /outsiders with them willn change forever , i hope their attitude to your friendship doest change over this also , maybe not immediatly but over time you will notice less "invites" 

Good Health


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2013)

To put some balance to this thread, I managed municipal golf courses for 20 years.
The green fee/season tickets included insurance.
The amount of claims was very small, generally about 3 to 4 a year and usually involved damage to neighbouring properties or cars.
The courses [12 in total] averaged 40,000 rounds a year.
So over that period 800,000 rounds of golf played on courses with a varied standard of player and no personal injury claims.


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## BTatHome (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			let me clarify that. I became aware of the change in underfoot conditions and immediately fell. I had no time to make an informed decision to carry on at that point. The decision for me to go no further was made for me.

it wasn't 'icy' up to that point. It was 'frosty'
		
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Colin2324 said:



			just a couple,of points that might not be clear. The terrain changed from Frosty to ICY at the tenth hole for an area which was not a patch but which covered two or three of the most exposed holes at the upper level. The ice wasn't apparent to the naked eye and only made itself known when i stepped on to that part of the course and immediately fell.
		
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just to clear this up, you slipped at the point the frost became ice, and broke your ankle. Hobbled off the course and contacted the club the next day?

So who told you that the 3 holes in front were iced up?


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Honestly I can accept your point of view on this as far as  claiming or not claiming is concerned but that statement above is utter garbage.
		
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If you win your claim and get a few grand, do you think the course will open in the future if its frosty, risking futher claims against them.


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To put some balance to this thread, I managed municipal golf courses for 20 years.
The green fee/season tickets included insurance.
The amount of claims was very small, generally about 3 to 4 a year and usually involved damage to neighbouring properties or cars.
The courses [12 in total] averaged 40,000 rounds a year.
So over that period 800,000 rounds of golf played on courses with a varied standard of player and no personal injury claims.
		
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How long ago was that though mate? It's over the last few years this no win no fee culture has arisen. I bet if you were managing them now you would see a sharp increase in the amount of claims being made/


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Yes, definitely, the  greens keepers should have the means to determine the condition of the course and implement their own safety strategies which the OP has stated weren't followed.
		
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The OP said that the ice wasn't apparant to the naked eye, can you explain to me in a non complicated way how the greenkeepers "should have the means to determine the condition". Most courses have only, maybe 5 greenkeepers to cover a huge area of land and they are supposed to see something that wasn't apparant to the naked eye!!

Also, how did the OP know what the maens were, and, furthermore, to know subsequently that they wern't followed??


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## Slab (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			The OP said that the ice wasn't apparant to the naked eye, can you explain to me in a non complicated way how the greenkeepers "should have the means to determine the condition". Most courses have only, maybe 5 greenkeepers to cover a huge area of land and they are supposed to see something that wasn't apparant to the naked eye!!

Also, how did the OP know what the maens were, and, furthermore, to know subsequently that they wern't followed??
		
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They might use some kind of stick maybe 
(sorry I know that's flippant) 

The green keepers will be well aware of the susceptible areas on the course, they donâ€™t need to check everywhere, just make reasonable checks to the areas that are routinely affected 

Still not sure whether I support a claim in this scenario though


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			How long ago was that though mate? It's over the last few years this no win no fee culture has arisen. I bet if you were managing them now you would see a sharp increase in the amount of claims being made/
		
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Up to 2002.
I stay in touch with my old colleagues and no one has mentioned a problem with increased insurance claims.
There were a few 'dodgy' claims in my time which I generally sorted out before bringing in the insurers. A broken window claim 300 yards from the golf course which would have involved about 5 ricochets off neighbours walls springs to mind. A neighbour told me his own kids did it when messing about will golf clubs and ball.

On enquiry involved a broken patio window. I asked how he was so sure that the window was broken by a golf ball and not a stone or air gun. He laughed then told me the ball was lodged between the window pane glass.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2013)

Slab said:



			They might use some kind of stick maybe 
(sorry I know that's flippant) 

The green keepers will be well aware of the susceptible areas on the course, they donâ€™t need to check everywhere, just make reasonable checks to the areas that are routinely affected 

Still not sure whether I support a claim in this scenario though
		
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Just think of those yellow 'slippery when wet' [icy, snowy, dry] triangles dotted around future golf courses.


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

Reading through all the things that the OP has said. I just find it amazing what has been said.

It was frosty but did not show any real sings of being dangerous to play on and there was no patches of ice obvious to the naked eye, even when he got to the place that he had the accident. Well if that is the case then how can you reasonably expect the golf club to know about the ice if it was not visible, so how can they be held responsible?

This run of 3 holes where all iced up. You have said that you fell as soon as you got to this area that was vulnerable to being icy, so how do you know about the next 3 holes?

You are only suing them because they followed the advice of their solicitor and let their insurance company contact you. So going on that you did not think there was much of a liability issue, until the actions of the club highlighted this to you and the Â£ signs started ringing through your head.

You feel annoyed that the golf club did not contact you giving you some free golf or a bunch of flowers. Well that can be seen as an admission of guilt, as the club are trying to make a settlement to you.

Let me ask you one question and give me an honest answer Colin: How much responsibility do you feel the club has to take for what happened and how much do you?

I think that it is a case of 80/20 with you being the 80% as ultimately you chose to play, but the club could have maybe done a better check of this area and shut the course to prevent it.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 22, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			If you win your claim and get a few grand, do you think the course will open in the future if its frosty, risking futher claims against them.
		
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this is probably the biggest single reason that the case has to go to court, and possibly to appeal as well!

if the existence of ice on a course is deemed to represent an unacceptable risk ie you have to close the course if it exists (or may exist because you can't check whether it actually does at every point)

personally I find this a strange assumption - I frequently play golf when the ball bounces on the water hazards!  Strangely I also go for walks in such conditions, as do many others.

as I said earlier, if there was an artificial surface installed that had become dangerous in the conditions, it would be appropriate to place a warning (and in an extreme situation it may even be appropriate to re-route and close off an area), equally if there was any area where the club had been made aware of a specific danger (normally through the unfortunate experience of others) it will probably be appropriate to place a warning there.

if a course has to close if there is a risk of ice then clearly this has a huge financial implication for the businesses in the UK - and that's before you take into account the implications for those who primarily play golf in the winter months for exercise and do other things in the warmer months!

there are of course a couple of other unfortunate aspects (beyond the obvious injury to Colin) - the communication situation which is a real catch 22; it had to happen the way it did because the developing claims culture  (which includes claims that have only been pursued and won on the basis of what has been said after an event) and the seeming wish to seperate the claim between the insurer and the club! It doesn't work that way. Insurance premiums = claims+administration costs. It's a simple equation! Basically any claim is met by those participating in the activity or benefitting from it. As those participating remunerate those benefitting in this activity the total cost of any claim, including all the legal fees, will be met by golfers.


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## bluetoon (Mar 22, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			this is probably the biggest single reason that the case has to go to court, and possibly to appeal as well!.
		
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What!

Golf has been played in this country for over 400years in rain, snow, hail and gales, do we really want to be seen as the generation that panders to the compensation culture and entertains frivolous lawsuits.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2013)

bluetoon said:



			what!

Golf has been played in this country for over 400years in rain, snow, hail and gales, do we really want to be seen as the generation that panders to the compensation culture and entertains frivolous lawsuits.
		
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blame colin


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2013)

Yup, when all the golf courses close, thousands of golf staff laid off, kids hanging round street corners and the UK becomes the new Switzerland of golf we can all blame 'Colin's Law'.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			this is probably the biggest single reason that the case has to go to court, and possibly to appeal as well!

if the existence of ice on a course is deemed to represent an unacceptable risk ie you have to close the course if it exists (or may exist because you can't check whether it actually does at every point)

personally I find this a strange assumption - I frequently play golf when the ball bounces on the water hazards!  Strangely I also go for walks in such conditions, as do many others.

as I said earlier, if there was an artificial surface installed that had become dangerous in the conditions, it would be appropriate to place a warning (and in an extreme situation it may even be appropriate to re-route and close off an area), equally if there was any area where the club had been made aware of a specific danger (normally through the unfortunate experience of others) it will probably be appropriate to place a warning there.

if a course has to close if there is a risk of ice then clearly this has a huge financial implication for the businesses in the UK - and that's before you take into account the implications for those who primarily play golf in the winter months for exercise and do other things in the warmer months!

there are of course a couple of other unfortunate aspects (beyond the obvious injury to Colin) - the communication situation which is a real catch 22; it had to happen the way it did because the developing claims culture  (which includes claims that have only been pursued and won on the basis of what has been said after an event) and the seeming wish to seperate the claim between the insurer and the club! It doesn't work that way. Insurance premiums = claims+administration costs. It's a simple equation! Basically any claim is met by those participating in the activity or benefitting from it. As those participating remunerate those benefitting in this activity the total cost of any claim, including all the legal fees, will be met by golfers.
		
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It's potentially even more difficult than you say, the conditions in the winter change by the minute. the course can be fine one minute then, as the sun goes down, turn really cold and icy the next. It can be dry then a rain storm sees it under water. It is impracticable to have a up to the minute, ongoing, safety assessments and that is why golfers have to take some personal responsibility. He said it was frosty and a grown up would have to assume that if its cold enough for frost then its going to be very likely there will be ice about. I can't see for the life of me why he thinks that someone else is responsible for advising him of something that would be patently obvious, it is, after all, a hazard of winter golf - he knows that and if he wasn't willing to accept the risk then he shouldn't have played!

There are clearly risks attached to everything that you do in life and I readily accept that if someone is negligent and it causes injury then compensation is rightly awarded but in this case Colin, who I dont thinks has responded to answer the foot wear question as yet, seems to ignore the fact that the conditions were clearly poor and that he should have been more vigilant and maybe sue the two members who he was with for taking him out in such conditions!


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## Naybrains (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			It's potentially even more difficult than you say, the conditions in the winter change by the minute. the course can be fine one minute then, as the sun goes down, turn really cold and icy the next. It can be dry then a rain storm sees it under water. It is impracticable to have a up to the minute, ongoing, safety assessments and that is why golfers have to take some personal responsibility. He said it was frosty and a grown up would have to assume that if its cold enough for frost then its going to be very likely there will be ice about. I can't see for the life of me why he thinks that someone else is responsible for advising him of something that would be patently obvious, it is, after all, a hazard of winter golf - he knows that and if he wasn't willing to accept the risk then he shouldn't have played!

There are clearly risks attached to everything that you do in life and I readily accept that if someone is negligent and it causes injury then compensation is rightly awarded but in this case Colin, who I dont thinks has responded to answer the foot wear question as yet, seems to ignore the fact that the conditions were clearly poor and that he should have been more vigilant and maybe sue the two members who he was with for taking him out in such conditions!
		
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Wonderfully put Chris, Exactly how I see it.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 22, 2013)

A couple of years ago I sustained a bad ankle injury during a BMF class. These are outdoor circuit training classes run with a "military" sort of theme. I stood in a concealed hole while trying a sharp turn, went over and something snapped! Ligament damage for me rather than a break although the latter may have meant a quicker recovery.

To me, this was just one of those things that could have happened to anyone running in a grassy area and it never occurred to me to sue.

However, the BMF people were great. Helped me get back to the start, administered first aid and were genuinely concerned about me. Moreover, their head office subsequently phoned me to see how I was and "froze" my membership during my recovery so that I wasn't paying when I couldn't train.

It would be  a great shame if we reached the point in our society where each party can't treat the other decently in cases of genuine accident. I understand why the GC's attitude would have irked the OP and contributed to the decision to sue; although I still think it wrong to do so.

Hope the ankle mends soon!


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## birdieman (Mar 22, 2013)

Apologies if this has been said already as I cant be bothered reading 26 pages but I would say you should have taken out specialised golf insurance which covered such eventualities and claimed on them as you'd be paying them a monthly or yearly premium. Trying to lay blame at the foot of the club in this instance is not right imo.


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## jimbob.someroo (Mar 22, 2013)

Can't believe I've just read this whole thing - more than I read during my entire Uni degree.

My only point to add is that I think someone from the club ought to have mentioned that the area may have been more treacherous. The greenkeepers will have been round the course to put the flags up in the morning and if there was indeed sheet ice on certain areas, they should have mentioned this to the pro/starter. Even a quick "just be careful up on the 10th, it might be a bit harder underfoot" would have sufficed and protected the club a little more.

However, whether or not I'd sue, I'm not sure. It's hard to put myself in the OP's shoes. 

Best of luck with the recovery.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

bobmac said:



			A question for the OP.
If you had to pay for taking the case to court and risk losing money if you lost, would you still sue?
		
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No I couldnt afford to take the chance of losing.


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## Rooter (Mar 22, 2013)

I haven't commented on this thread yet.. now please someone correct me if i am wrong, but if it was that cold, sheet ice was on the fairway, the OP would have been pretty aware it due to the fact it was at least 0 degrees outside, would have de-iced his car before going to the course, worn a hat, gloves, base layers... now to me, if its that cold, i quite often think "it might be a bit slippy in places today" whether on the course, down the road, whatever..

Has common sense left the building? is it not obvious that it may be slippy in places in sub zero temperatures, or do you need someone (read the starter, pro, your wife, your mum) to warn you that cold = slippy?  

sorry, sueing a golf club because you slipped in those conditions is a joke. I do hope your ankle mends quickly and you are ok, but i also hope you don't see a penny from the club.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

BTatHome said:



			just to clear this up, you slipped at the point the frost became ice, and broke your ankle. Hobbled off the course and contacted the club the next day?

So who told you that the 3 holes in front were iced up?
		
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We hobbled across the 11th and 13th fairways to get to the car. One of the guys recevered the balls from the 10th fairway, so we know those fairways were iced over in places. Those hoes are the 3 most exposed holes on the course and were worse than any other area on the course. I didnt know that until I stepped on the 10th fairway. It would have been so easy for a greenkeeper to walk up there in the morning, test it with a fork to see if there was any give, and cordon off the worst bits.

If having done that the starter says 'be careful up on 10-13 lads, its a bit worse up there', then I have no case if I still go on and play. The fact is that he said it was 'fine' when we asked and I strongly suspect that no one, greenkeeper ot otherwise had been up there that morning to even look at it. That is entriely contrary to what the club and greenkeeping policies state they are supposed to do and that was their fatal mistake which left me in pain for 4 months


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2013)

I just wonder what the golf course and their lawyers will make of it being discussed on an open forum


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I just wonder what the golf course and their lawyers will make of it being discussed on an open forum
		
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 First of all I have taken great pains not to identify myself or the course concerned. If someone else on here recognises my case and exposes detail then that's not my doing and I would ask for such  identification to be removed from the forum by the mod team.

Secondly I would imagine they will be delighted that the golfing community universally and strongly opposes claiming for  personal injury no  matter to what extent they may have been negligent.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rooter said:



			I haven't commented on this thread yet.. now please someone correct me if i am wrong, but if it was that cold, sheet ice was on the fairway, the OP would have been pretty aware it due to the fact it was at least 0 degrees outside, would have de-iced his car before going to the course, worn a hat, gloves, base layers... now to me, if its that cold, i quite often think "it might be a bit slippy in places today" whether on the course, down the road, whatever..

Has common sense left the building? is it not obvious that it may be slippy in places in sub zero temperatures, or do you need someone (read the starter, pro, your wife, your mum) to warn you that cold = slippy?  

sorry, sueing a golf club because you slipped in those conditions is a joke. I do hope your ankle mends quickly and you are ok, but i also hope you don't see a penny from the club.
		
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i questioned the conditions. Don't be so bloody stupid of course I questioned the conditions. The starter indicated that the course was playable AND safe because we specifically asked about the conditions.


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## MetalMickie (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			i questioned the conditions. Don't be so bloody stupid of course I questioned the conditions. The starter indicated that the course was playable AND safe because we specifically asked about the conditions.
		
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Hang on!

According to your original statement the starter said it was OK & playable.
Are you now saying he said it was safe, an entirely different situation as there are dangers on a golf-course whatever the weather.


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## Andy (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			i questioned the conditions. Don't be so bloody stupid of course I questioned the conditions. The starter indicated that the course was playable AND safe because we specifically asked about the conditions.
		
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Do you accept any liability at all in this incident or is everyone else at fault?


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

Andy said:



			Do you accept any liability at all in this incident or is everyone else at fault?
		
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I haven't had an offer based on a share of liability so I won't be able to answer that one.


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## bluetoon (Mar 22, 2013)

Can you answer the question about what type of spikes you were wearing?


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

MetalMickie said:



			Hang on!

According to your original statement the starter said it was OK & playable.
Are you now saying he said it was safe, an entirely different situation as there are dangers on a golf-course whatever the weather.
		
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He 'indicated' it was safe in response to a question he was asked. He said 'yes, it's okay, it's playable' There isn't any contradiction there.


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## stevie_r (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			i questioned the conditions. Don't be so bloody stupid of course I questioned the conditions. The starter indicated that the course was playable AND safe because we specifically asked about the conditions.
		
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So you specifically asked if it was safe? gies a break.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2013)

Andy said:



			Do you accept any liability at all in this incident or is everyone else at fault?
		
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Colin2324 said:



			I haven't had an offer based on a share of liability so I won't be able to answer that one.
		
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Take that as a no then - until you get the cheque in your hand. Clearly you don't think you did anything wrong. Walking 150 yards on an already injured leg, mentioning it on a public forum (someone somewhere will know of you and the incident) plus all the other discrepancies that seem to have come out from the OP


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

bluetoon said:



			Can you answer the question about what type of spikes you were wearing?
		
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I have 3 pairs of golf shoes. None of them have the old style metal spikes. None of them have the modern dimple soles. They have varying types of medium to hard cleats but I can't remember now which ones I was wearing. Neither of them would be effective on solid ice but all of them would have offered a degree of stability and safety in routine frost.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			He 'indicated' it was safe in response to a question he was asked. He said 'yes, it's okay, it's playable' There isn't any contradiction there.
		
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It's playable doesn't mean it's safe in my opinion!


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## MetalMickie (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			He 'indicated' it was safe in response to a question he was asked. He said 'yes, it's okay, it's playable' There isn't any contradiction there.
		
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Oh yes there is.

Playable does NOT mean safe. Playable would be taken as the greens or temps were not lost under casual water, that where casual water existed on areas through the green there was somewhere for relief to be taken etc.

It certainly does not provide any guarantee that conditions were safe as no one can offer that guarantee.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Take that as a no then - until you get the cheque in your hand. Clearly you don't think you did anything wrong. Walking 150 yards on an already injured leg, mentioning it on a public forum (someone somewhere will know of you and the incident) plus all the other discrepancies that seem to have come out from the OP
		
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you can take it however you please but I am not about to go into detail about how much, if any,liability i would be prepared to accept. that's  none of your business and certainly not an aspect I would b discussing on a public forum. The fact is that no one has ever discussed my liability versus theres. It may or may not be a discussion I would be prepared to be party to, but whilst they continue to take the matter down the legal route I don't have that option. Someone somewhere can expose the identity of the club and myself if they wish. It isn't my wish nor my intention and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the facts and the liability anyway and I would ask for it to be removed if someone did expose identity details. If you could highlight the discrepancies that have come out from me, I'd be pleased to hear them ?


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## jpenno (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			He 'indicated' it was safe in response to a question he was asked. He said 'yes, it's okay, it's playable' There isn't any contradiction there.
		
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There is a considerable difference to the course being playable and answering a question about it being safe and clear from ice.

All Golf courses are playable if YOU exercise reasonable care.

You havent answered my previous questions about what time you arrived at the club, then teed off and what time you got to the 10th tee. there could have been a substantial drop in temperature during those 2 hours

I note you wouldnt fund the costs of the claim yourself as you must think its too risky, I really hope you lose and that your ATE insurance wont cover you.

The accident was caused by you failing to take appropriate care yet you want someone else to take the blame.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			you can take it however you please but I am not about to go into detail about how much, if any,liability i would be prepared to accept. that's  none of your business and certainly not an aspect I would b discussing on a public forum. The fact is that no one has ever discussed my liability versus theres. It may or may not be a discussion I would be prepared to be party to, but whilst they continue to take the matter down the legal route I don't have that option. Someone somewhere can expose the identity of the club and myself if they wish. It isn't my wish nor my intention and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the facts and the liability anyway and I would ask for it to be removed if someone did expose identity details. If you could highlight the discrepancies that have come out from me, I'd be pleased to hear them ?
		
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Moral of the story is don't post anything on here that you intend to keep vaguely confidential.  Someone grassed me up to a company as I posted that I got some free shoes from them by mistake once,, and people got very upset. But in another thread letting children die in Africa is OK.  You would not believe the piousness on display sometimes.  But it takes different strokes.....

Anyway, my take is you pays your price and takes your chances when playing golf in cold conditions.  And if you come to some harm through no direct negligence (as in someone has not directly caused you some harm by being in the same vicinity of you when it happened) of someone then your bad.


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## jpenno (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			you can take it however you please but I am not about to go into detail about how much, if any,liability i would be prepared to accept. that's  none of your business and certainly not an aspect I would b discussing on a public forum. The fact is that no one has ever discussed my liability versus theres. It may or may not be a discussion I would be prepared to be party to, but whilst they continue to take the matter down the legal route I don't have that option. Someone somewhere can expose the identity of the club and myself if they wish. It isn't my wish nor my intention and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the facts and the liability anyway and I would ask for it to be removed if someone did expose identity details. If you could highlight the discrepancies that have come out from me, I'd be pleased to hear them ?
		
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You are missing the Point - They are not taking it down the legal route - You are. 

You could have dropped this by accepting it was your fault


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## bluetoon (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			I have 3 pairs of golf shoes. None of them have the old style metal spikes. None of them have the modern dimple soles. They have varying types of medium to hard cleats but I can't remember now which ones I was wearing. Neither of them would be effective on solid ice but all of them would have offered a degree of stability and safety in routine frost.
		
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I'm going out on a limb here, but i would suggest that any good solicitor would run a merry dance round the fact that you were wearing plastic cleated shoes in sub zero conditions.

Regardless of the fact that 99% of the golfing community wear them and golf courses favour them because they cause less damage to the greens.

Maybe, this highlights the need for the golfing community at large to return to metal spikes when playing winter golf in the UK. It seems a more sensible and appropriate footwear giving the conditions you describe.


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

Even though I am against this compo claim. At the end of the day he slipped on the course and broke his ankle. I am guessing that if it is out of plaster and he has use of it again he is still suffering with it. So come on people lay off him a bit. He came on here to ask for peoples opinions on him taking legal action against them and he is now starting to receive a barrage of abuse for it.

The facts are simple. The course was frosty and it was freezing temperatures, so there was a chance that it could be frozen in places. He asked the starter and he said that it was ok to play. He has gone out and slipped on ice and broke his ankle. Not made a fuss about it until the clubs legal representatives contacted him and he was told not to contact or visit the club. He has know seen that it is being turned into a legal issue, so correctly got his own advice. Colin has found out he can end up getting quite a few grand for this. (my mate got Â£7K for his broken ankle on the course). 

Should Colin accept some of the blame? Yes, he chose to go out there knowing that it was freezing conditions, so there was always the chance of encountering ice.
Should the club take some responsibility? Possibly as they could have carried out a better check of the course to check for any ice that has formed, especially in an area that supposedly is vulnerable to it.

If this does go through and you win I just hope that it does not have any long term effect on golf clubs and their liability insurance.

I do not think that people are not making this a person assault on you, they are more frightened about the possibility of it having a longer term effect on golf clubs.

Get well soon....:thup:


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			So you specifically asked if it was safe? gies a break.
		
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Sorry if I am being thick but do you think we asked about safety or think we didn't ask . I think one of us said ' what's it like out there' . The context of that question concerns safety, we weren't asking if we would meet anyone nice or if there were any good pubs on the way.

no one said ' is it safe '


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## SharkAttack (Mar 22, 2013)

You admit yourself that you felt the conditions under foot changing, surely you should have stopped and returned to the clubhouse if you thought it was dangerous and if you didn't think it was dangerous then why are you trying to blame someone else for not closing a part of the course you thought was okay to walk on.

A golf course is not a flat gripping surface to walk on at any time of the year, let alone when it is frosty. If you feel that golf clubs should check every part of the course in case there is a part that someone might slip on, then we would never get on the course as it would take so long to do. Get your own insurance and you can get cover for every eventuality as long as you pay for it and then you can fight your own insurers for compensation.

Shark


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

I do not think that people are not making this a person assault on you, they are more frightened about the possibility of it having a longer term effect on golf clubs.

Get well soon....:thup:[/QUOTE]

thanks. I can take a bit of abuse. It's what you expect on any forum where people can run their mouth off behind a keyboard and not be challenged in any way. I am not daft enough to expect support for claiming against a golf club on a golf forum.

The purpose of my post was to A. Gauge opinion on safety as a whole and B see if anyone else had any similar experiences. Not sure i succeeded on either level so I will make this my last post on the subject as I think I have given enough of a platform to the opinionated and the cretinous and those with some value to contribute aren't really being properly heard. There is some stuff that has come up that I haven't really fully thought about in terms of the impact there might be and the implications of the road I am on, so it's been useful in that respect


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## jpenno (Mar 22, 2013)

Within the course of this page you have changed the basis of what was asked prior to starting the round, 

you also completely ignore the fact that in December the temperature can change dramatically over the period of time to play 9 holes and you fail to accept that any of this could possibly be your fault


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

I have lodged a validated hourly record of the temperatures that weekend with both parties. There was a rise of 2 degrees between 7am and 11am on the day of the accident.

Not sure in what way my recollection of the pre tee off conversation has ever changed but there you go. You may be seeing something I can't see.


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## BTatHome (Mar 22, 2013)

Interesting update to golfer who won a recent case after being hit by ball .....

_Remember the story of Anthony Phee â€“ the golfer who was awarded nearly Â£400,000 in damages two years ago when he was struck by a ball during a round in 2007 which caused his eye to â€œexplodeâ€?

Now thereâ€™s been another twist in the tale. 

Niddry Castle Golf Club, which was initially ordered to cover Â£120,000 â€“ around 30 percent of the damages â€“ has lost its appeal and must now pay Â£320,000, representing approximately 80 percent.

After the initial ruling, the club and James Gordon â€“ the golfer whose ball struck Phee â€“ had launched appeals. But three appeal court judges have ruled the â€œlionâ€™s share of blameâ€ rests with Niddry Castle for its lack of warning signs around the course.

The remaining 20 percent to be paid to Phee â€“ who lost his job as a railway engineering supervisor as a result of the injury â€“ is to be made up from Gordon and insurers.

Alex Rae, of insurance specialist Tonic Golf told Golf Club Managementâ€™s Alistair Dunsmuir: â€œIt is thought that Niddry Castleâ€™s insurers will appeal this new ruling. But the case is proving to be very expensive for the club â€“ regardless of whatever the final decision will be.â€


Just last month former Walker Cup player Gavin Dear found himself in court being sued by David McMahon, a ball spotter who was struck by a stray ball from Dear at the Scottish Amateur Champion of Champions event.

â€œThis isnâ€™t an issue that clubs and golfers can hide away from,â€ added Mr Rae. â€œThe Â£50,000 figure that David McMahon is seeking could have been significantly higher than that amount if he was about half his age and had an occupation which required good eyesight.â€_


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## jpenno (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			I have lodged a validated hourly record of the temperatures that weekend with both parties. There was a rise of 2 degrees between 7am and 11am on the day of the accident.

Not sure in what way my recollection of the pre tee off conversation has ever changed but there you go. You may be seeing something I can't see.
		
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You have still not confirmed what time you arrived, teed off or got to the 10th tee

You have changed your version of events from definite questions to I think someone may have asked.

 It would be great fun to watch you in the witness box being cross examined by a decent barrister


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

jpenno said:



			You are missing the Point - They are not taking it down the legal route - You are. 

You could have dropped this by accepting it was your fault
		
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Christ are you even reading  this thread or are you just having a general seethe about a subject close to your heart. I have fully explained how we got to where we are. Clearly I think there is fault on their part. I would have thought that was bleeding obvious. If I Thought it was my fault would we even be having this discussion ? Jesus is this as complex as some people are making it out to be.

yes I could have hobbled away and forgot about it. But I didn't want to. I wanted to make a point and I wanted financial recompense for 4 months of pain. It really is that easy and I get that you don't agree with my actions, but enough now.


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## jpenno (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Christ are you even reading  this thread or are you just having a general seethe about a subject close to your heart. I have fully explained how we got to where we are. Clearly I think there is fault on their part. I would have thought that was bleeding obvious. If I Thought it was my fault would we even be having this discussion ? Jesus is this as complex as some people are making it out to be.

yes I could have hobbled away and forgot about it. But I didn't want to. I wanted to make a point and I wanted financial recompense for 4 months of pain. It really is that easy and I get that you don't agree with my actions, but enough now.
		
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I am not having a general seethe, I make a decent living out of ill concieved litigation ;-) . The fact that you now admit its about the Â£Â£ but would not risk your own money says it all.


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## stevie_r (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Hello all.


How do people feel about risk on the golf course ? How responsible should a club be for safety of its guests or is it simply my own damn fault for embarking on a game in zero temperatures. How do people feel about making claims for this sort of thing ?
		
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Do you recognise the quote above? It's from your opening post.  People have made it very clear how they feel about it and yet you don't like the responses you are getting.  Presumably therefore you were just after sympathy and for everyone to assuage that feeling you have inside that tells you you are in the wrong.

Edit: oh, and getting rude and nasty about.  Hey, just a thought, perhaps you are right, and everyone else is wrong!!!!


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## bluetoon (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Jesus is this as complex as some people are making it out to be..
		
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Nope not from where i'm sitting.

You chose to play golf in freezing conditions.
You chose to wear plastic cleated shoes for winter golf
You chose to absolve yourself of any personal responsibility.
You chose to sue the club.

simples! :thup:


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2013)

We should really be grateful to Colin for highlighting how easy it is to make a claim against a club . The answer is signing a disclaimer, whether as a member or as a guest before your allowed to play on any course.
ps. Colin [ how to make friends and influence people ] i hope you enjoy your next invite .


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			We hobbled across the 11th and 13th fairways to get to the car. One of the guys recevered the balls from the 10th fairway, so we know those fairways were iced over in places.
		
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So, despite now knowing how treacherous it was underfoot, regardless of the physical danger to himself, one of your playing partners bravely risked bodily injury to go and retrieve ten quids-worth of golf balls?  Unbelievable.


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## upsidedown (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			. I wanted to make a point and I wanted financial recompense for 4 months of pain..
		
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Next complaint aimed at the NHS then for poor pain management ?

Dude you fell over on ice on a frosty day and were unlucky to break an ankle " it is what it is " Don't care where it happened you lost your footing , it was an accident !!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2013)

How long before our courses are covered in health and safety signs telling us all the potential hazards on the course? And how long before someone hits a shot which rebounds off one of these signs and hits them? Who are they going to sue? The golf club for putting up the signs, the insurers for insisting that the signs are there or the health and safety people for telling the insurers they need the signs.


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## jammag (Mar 22, 2013)

The thing is there should be some public liability insurance put in place. I know there is a case going on local to me where a charity worker was posting something through someones door and a branch snapped off a tree hit him and paralysed him and a claim going through that will be paid once the paper work is settled for Â£2.3million. It is the public liability that is paying for this even though it was no real fault of the house owners but if they didnt have this in place they would have been sued to bankruptcy. 

Now although not as serious as that and whether you agree if its the right thing to do or whether you would have done this 20 years ago, there should be some cover in place that helps out someone involved in an incident whether its slipping over on ice or a falling branch insurance is there for this kind of reason.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Dont be such a Drama queen. Sign a disclaimer. End of.
		
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So, you can clean some golf club members finances out, but we can all sign away the rights that you are so keen to exploit mmmmmm


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			So, you can clean some golf club members finances out, but we can all sign away the rights that you are so keen to exploit mmmmmm
		
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 So you want to retain the right ? Or not ? Confused ?


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			So you want to retain the right ? Or not ? Confused ?
		
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I want to retain the right, but that right not to be abused by money grabbing, compo claiming golfers, who walk around on a freezing day without taking care of their own health and safety and expect my subscriptions to fund their greed !


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2013)

Why isn't it possible to have an "accident" these days? It seems that whenever something happens (not just in this case) there is a rush to apportion blame and/or claim compensation. Sometimes **** happens and we just have to accept that fact and move on.
In this particular case, if the club expressly banned the wearing of spiked golf shoes as some clubs around my way do then I can see that they would be liable. If this isn't the case then I'd have to put this in the category of an unfortunate accident that possibly could have been prevented but only by taking health and safety to the Nth degree and closing the course because of the frost but by playing in what you admit were frosty conditions I would suggest that you have to take responsibility for your own injury.


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## Colin2324 (Mar 22, 2013)

chrisd said:



			I want to retain the right, but that right not to be abused by money grabbing, compo claiming golfers, who walk around on a freezing day without taking care of their own health and safety and expect my subscriptions to fund their greed !
		
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So you want to retain the right to claim compensation for your own blameless misfortunes but you want to judge everyone else's case and dismiss them out of hand based on limited knowledge of what actually happened ?


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			So you want to retain the right to claim compensation for your own blameless misfortunes but you want to judge everyone else's case and dismiss them out of hand based on limited knowledge of what actually happened ?
		
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You asked for opinions and giving them has to be based on the information you cared to make public.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 22, 2013)

Colin2324 said:



			Clearly I think there is fault on their part. I would have thought that was bleeding obvious. If I Thought it was my fault would we even be having this discussion ? .
		
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You think it was their fault or your "no win, no fee" lawyers think it was. You see it wasn't that many posts ago that you had no intention of suing?

Frankly, I'm not sure you should have even raised this on a public forum


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## Rooter (Mar 22, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Frankly, I'm not sure you should have even raised this on a public forum
		
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Exactly, how many golf clubs in the UK? how many users on this forum? what are the odds that some here is a member at said icy club. (must be up north or scotland, as we all know its grim up there) then what are the odds this post gets pointed out to the club sec?

LOL, epic legal fail coming up me thinks.


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

I think Colin is coming under some attack here from people and now he has lost it and started to throw insults back, apparantly he is the one in the wrong and getting his wrists slapped. I do not have time to go back through the thread looking to the exact comments and who made them, but things like i hope you go out and break your other ankle to me is well out of line, along with the people who thought it was funny. This person is out of line expecting to get some compo from the club, but at the same time there are people on here who are out of line for the way they have treated him.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I think Colin is coming under some attack here from people and now he has lost it and started to throw insults back, apparantly he is the one in the wrong and getting his wrists slapped. I do not have time to go back through the thread looking to the exact comments and who made them, but things like i hope you go out and break your other ankle to me is well out of line, along with the people who thought it was funny. This person is out of line expecting to get some compo from the club, but at the same time there are people on here who are out of line for the way they have treated him.
		
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 Wisnae me .


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## MadAdey (Mar 22, 2013)

williamalex1 said:



			Wisnae me .
		
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Can you see where I am coming from Will? or am I just getting soft in my old age.........


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## Mark_G (Mar 22, 2013)

Why is Colin suing the club? Why doesn't he sue the manufacturer of the shoes he was wearing? Was there anything on the box that the shoes came in that said they would not offer sufficient grip in icy conditions? If the injury was caused by lack of grip between the shoes and the ground, then surely the shoe manufacturer as supplier to Colin, would be part liable, as it was their equipment that failed to provide the grip required for Colin to stay on two feet. I cant help thinking that Colin is suing the wrong people, a golf club isnt going to have much money, but an international golf shoe manufacturer would have millions of pounds. Unless as a 55 year old you can remember when people took responsibility for themselves, and their actions, when accidents were accidents, and people didn't try to blame all and sundry for everything bad that happened to them.


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## Pull (Mar 22, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			I think Colin is coming under some attack here from people and now he has lost it and started to throw insults back, apparantly he is the one in the wrong and getting his wrists slapped. I do not have time to go back through the thread looking to the exact comments and who made them, but things like i hope you go out and break your other ankle to me is well out of line, along with the people who thought it was funny. This person is out of line expecting to get some compo from the club, but at the same time there are people on here who are out of line for the way they have treated him.
		
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Completely agree with you, not for the first time I've read a thread on these forums and been disgusted by the attitude and comments made by the majority. 

It puts me off posting regularly and makes this forum seem like one of the old fashioned clubs where as if you're not part of the group that clicks you're made out to be worlds worst terrorist or similar. 

In terms of the thread, I sympathise with Colin. As he's seen to be going after our beloved golf clubs then automatically people grab there pitch forks and torches and set loose on him..
If you were in a high street shop and slipped on some spilt water which hadn't been signposted or cleared, I bet 95% of you would be on the phone sueing before even getting up regardless of the fact you should have seen the water. 
Yes it probably was partly his fault but if the club accepts money they are accepting the course is fit to play. It clearly wasn't and they are negligent to some extent. 

And also, for what it's worth, after 20 odd pages of attacks on Colin, including someone wishing he broke his other ankle that he gets a warning after a few comments. Tad unfair on the bloke.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2013)

MadAdey said:



			Can you see where I am coming from Will? or am I just getting soft in my old age.........

Click to expand...

no i can see your view  , but i posted a few thoughts, opinions , ideas tongue in cheek , only to be told  by the op thats  rubbish  or asked what age i am.
 Tbh he deserves what he gets. he has opened a very large can of worms without thinking it through. This could be very costly to all golf clubs, because he fell


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2013)

Pull said:



			C
If you were in a high street shop and slipped on some spilt water which hadn't been signposted or cleared, I bet 95% of you would be on the phone sueing before even getting up regardless of the fact you should have seen the water.
		
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Because you could reasonably expect there to not be water on the floor of a shop
If it's frosty out on the course can you reasonably expect there to not be any ice around..?


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## stevie_r (Mar 22, 2013)

Pull said:



			If you were in a high street shop and slipped on some spilt water which hadn't been signposted or cleared, I bet 95% of you would be on the phone sueing before even getting up regardless of the fact you should have seen the water.
		
Click to expand...

He wasn't in a shop, he was walking around a frozen field - willingly.  He couldn't stay on his feet, it's not the golf clubs fault.


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## the hammer (Mar 22, 2013)

something similar happened at a club local to me , a female member slipped on frosty sleepers forming steps to the 1st tee,   i believe the claim was successful,now there are disclaimers at the side of the tee in frosty weather.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2013)

My problem with the thread is the way the story seems to have changed since the OP. no intention to sue, see what I'll get, "almost certain to win"

As I've said before surely Colin was negligent by slipping and then risking further injury by walking across two other frozen fairways on an already injured limb. How much more damage was done and how much risk was there walking on now treacherous ice with only one good leg?

At the end of the day, the die has been cast and unless Colin goes to his money hunting legal teams and retracts the claim (yeah right) this will run until the inevitable conclusion. Blame will be apportioned, rightly or wrongly and the mystery club will be faced with a bill that arguably in the economic market put them out of business. It of course is his decision and yes the club handled it wrongly to start but fighting fire with fire when the club didn't actually take any action just seems wrong to me


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