# World Cup Qualifiers



## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

A mate of mine has just split from his wife so I have agreed to go and watch the England match with him tonight in a pub. I can't remember the last time I was less enthusiastic about a match. I'm sure the Welsh and Northern Irish fans are buzzing after the Euro's, any English fans excited and if so why?

Anyone else see the Roy Keane hissy fit at his press conference yesterday? So funny, so angry about everything.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Tbh mate I can't remember the last time I was excited about watching a England match. 
I find them hard work. 

Roy Keane is brilliant entertainment,so much anger. 
He just seems to hate life &#128514;


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A mate of mine has just split from his wife so I have agreed to go and watch the England match with him tonight in a pub. I can't remember the last time I was less enthusiastic about a match. I'm sure the Welsh and Northern Irish fans are buzzing after the Euro's, any English fans excited and if so why?

Anyone else see the Roy Keane hissy fit at his press conference yesterday? So funny, so angry about everything.
		
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When the manager is saying he is happy for a draw before the game has even started shows the the type of manager that is now in charge - at least England have a manager who has done well avoiding relegation 

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37268797


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A mate of mine has just split from his wife so I have agreed to go and watch the England match with him tonight in a pub. I can't remember the last time I was less enthusiastic about a match. I'm sure the Welsh and Northern Irish fans are buzzing after the Euro's, any English fans excited and if so why?

Anyone else see the Roy Keane hissy fit at his press conference yesterday? So funny, so angry about everything.
		
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Can't wait mate, Team useless, Manager unwanted, just wait till big Sam starts doing well and the old excuses of "easy group" "can't do it at tournaments" start being churned out.

Finally get to feel what it's like for the other home nations when they start their campaign.......buzzin.

PS Love the old "I don't want to go the pub love, I'm doing it for a mate"  line, can't believe she fell for it.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2016)

I think if people were as realistic as big Sam we'd have a lot of happier fans during tournaments. Everyone gets on the hype and then hammers a manager when we fail. 

Our teams am in years gone by haven't been good enough. In Allardyce we have a manger who, however you want to belittle his achievements has likely upset the big boys more than any other manager in the pl. and when given a full season has never left a team in a worse position than when he arrived.

the footy may not leave everyone purring, but I don't remember us playing style that consistently did. We will play like we used to. Blood and guts. I'm sure any player not pulling their weight will be dropped.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			I think if people were as realistic as big Sam we'd have a lot of happier fans during tournaments. Everyone gets on the hype and then hammers a manager when we fail. 

Our teams am in years gone by haven't been good enough. In Allardyce we have a manger who, however you want to belittle his achievements has likely upset the big boys more than any other manager in the pl. and when given a full season has never left a team in a worse position than when he arrived.

the footy may not leave everyone purring, but I don't remember us playing style that consistently did. We will play like we used to. Blood and guts. I'm sure any player not pulling their weight will be dropped.
		
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Anymore reasonable and sensible posts from you on this thread and I'll report you to the mods.&#128515;
The England manager is meant to promise us trophies with the greatest players in the world in his squad, none of this honesty business, it's a completely different 23 players from the Euros.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Anymore reasonable and sensible posts from you on this thread and I'll report you to the mods.&#62979;
The England manager is meant to promise us trophies with the greatest players in the world in his squad, none of this honesty business, it's a completely different 23 players from the Euros.
		
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Well if we can get the home nations trophy arranged he could probably get us fourth. And that's a good aspirational place apparently &#128513;&#128513;

joking aside, as long as he doesn't pick noble then I'm happy with his choices. Think Antonio is a good shout, great arial presence and one things for sure, he will have no problem going long if he decides it's needed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Well if we can get the home nations trophy arranged he could probably get us fourth. And that's a good aspirational place apparently &#128513;&#128513;

joking aside, as long as he doesn't pick noble then I'm happy with his choices. Think Antonio is a good shout, great arial presence and one things for sure, he will have no problem going long if he decides it's needed.
		
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First game and it's competitive, he met the squad 5 days ago. Thought he was being quite sensible in his interview. Would like to see Drinkwater and Vardy get a run out together, not sure of Kane and Sterling side by side, happy to give him or any England manager 100% support when starting off in the job, results based business so we'll know soon enough.

If we bring the Home Nations back, guaranteed 3rd, we'd play Scotland&#128515;


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			PS Love the old "I don't want to go the pub love, I'm doing it for a mate"  line, can't believe she fell for it.
		
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It's actually true for once. She knows the wife and has being listening "patiently" to her moans for a week now. He has moved out. My wife thinks we are going to talk about feelings etc &#128514;. She doesn't know blokes. Beer, football, golf, being able to choose your own tea. That will just about cover the evening. My trouble is he drinks 2 pints to my one and he could be on a mission today. I may be missing a round before half time. Is that bad form?


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## Backache (Sep 4, 2016)

As a football fan and moreover an English one who has lived most of his life in Scotland I am always keen to see England do well. The performances recently have not been scintillating and Slovakia are not exactly opponents to get the pulse racing. However I don't think the future is completely bleak if England do get a settled squad , I actually believe that some of the players currently breaking into the team are as talented as England have had in a while.
Butland looks a decent keeper. Shaw and Stones have the capability to play international football for many years if they progress. Alli, Dier and possibly Barkley are all very talented midfielders. Rashford Sterling and Kane  if they develop properly are as good a set of forwards as England have looked like producing for years.
The road for all of them may not be smooth and some may drop out  but others will come in and if they do develop properly England do have the nucleus of a very decent team.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's actually true for once. She knows the wife and has being listening "patiently" to her moans for a week now. He has moved out. My wife thinks we are going to talk about feelings etc &#128514;. She doesn't know blokes. Beer, football, golf, being able to choose your own tea. That will just about cover the evening. My trouble is he drinks 2 pints to my one and he could be on a mission today. I may be missing a round before half time. Is that bad form?
		
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What you should do is get him on a bender, get him passed out by half time and you get the 2nd half in peace, wake him up when it finishes, shove him a taxi then go home and tell the missus, how depressed the lad is&#128515; job's a good un &#128515;


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's actually true for once. She knows the wife and has being listening "patiently" to her moans for a week now. He has moved out. My wife thinks we are going to talk about feelings etc &#128514;. She doesn't know blokes. Beer, football, golf, being able to choose your own tea. That will just about cover the evening. My trouble is he drinks 2 pints to my one and he could be on a mission today. I may be missing a round before half time. Is that bad form?
		
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Forget the football,strip club is what he needs. 
Naked women & Beer is the answer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			What you should do is get him on a bender, get him passed out by half time and you get the 2nd half in peace, wake him up when it finishes, shove him a taxi then go home and tell the missus, how depressed the lad is&#62979; job's a good un &#62979;
		
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Pin-seeker said:



			Forget the football,strip club is what he needs. 
Naked women & Beer is the answer.
		
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You two are a very bad influence :clap:. I don't want to be in his position in a months time!

Just thinking about it I couldn't even tell you where there is a strip club in Newcastle. There must be one, it's a city, but it shows how out of touch I am, or happily married


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You two are a very bad influence :clap:. I don't want to be in his position in a months time!

Just thinking about it I couldn't even tell you where there is a strip club in Newcastle. There must be one, it's a city, but it shows how out of touch I am, or happily married 

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If you're looking for a strip club in Newcastle, google "Wetherspoons"...


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You two are a very bad influence :clap:. I don't want to be in his position in a months time!

Just thinking about it I couldn't even tell you where there is a strip club in Newcastle. There must be one, it's a city, but it shows how out of touch I am, or happily married 

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You don't need to pay to see naked women in Newcastle &#128540;


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

Ha ha. That will be why there are no clubs then. I don't go in there at night any more, been there done that, so you forget about the (lack of) dress code


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. That will be why there are no clubs then. I don't go in there at night any more, been there done that, so you forget about the (lack of) dress code
		
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Top night Newcastle,went on a stag do last year.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You two are a very bad influence :clap:. I don't want to be in his position in a months time!

Just thinking about it I couldn't even tell you where there is a strip club in Newcastle. There must be one, it's a city, but it shows how out of touch I am, or happily married 

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FYEO opposite central station.....so I'm told


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Can't wait mate, Team useless, Manager unwanted, just wait till big Sam starts doing well and the old excuses of "easy group" "can't do it at tournaments" start being churned out.

Finally get to feel what it's like for the other home nations when they start their campaign.......buzzin.

PS Love the old "I don't want to go the pub love, I'm doing it for a mate"  line, can't believe she fell for it.
		
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They aren't old excuses, they're just facts. Most said we'd flop at the euros even after our qualification record because they knew how poor the manager was.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			They aren't old excuses, they're just facts. Most said we'd flop at the euros even after our qualification record because they knew how poor the manager was.
		
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We're already getting people having a go at Sam without a ball being kicked, so he's on a loser with some regardless of how he does.
Credit to those who called it correct for the last 6-10 managers and I held my hand up when Roy failed.
Still bores me when we get the same old points coming out before the game.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We're already getting people having a go at Sam without a ball being kicked, so he's on a loser with some regardless
		
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Then they can only be doing that based on his club career. It's all anyone can judge him on really which when you look at it isn't anything special. 

It's actually alarming how he is the best English manager we could've got. Shows how much we need to develop our own homegrown coaches instead of going for the quick fix from abroad.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			Then they can only be doing that based on his club career. It's all anyone can judge him on really which when you look at it isn't anything special. 

It's actually alarming how he is the best English manager we could've got. Shows how much we need to develop our own homegrown coaches instead of going for the quick fix from abroad.
		
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That's a seperate issue though, no way on this earth did I want Allardyce in charge, but he is, let's hope he proves us all wrong, 
I prefer me glass half full than half empty.
Even the best manager in the world will only have the same primadonnas to choose from.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We're already getting people having a go at Sam without a ball being kicked, so he's on a loser with some regardless of how he does.
Credit to those who called it correct for the last 6-10 managers and I held my hand up when Roy failed.
Still bores me when we get the same old points coming out before the game.
		
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"Having a go" ?

All anyone is doing is judging the situation and using the managers past career to make a judgement on how they will do with England 

Only one previous manager has had a differing England career compared to his club career and that was Capello 

McClaren , Hodgson , Taylor - all previous English managers who won the square root of pretty much nothing at the highest level in football and they continued that with their failures in charge of England 

And then how did the FA learn from that - they employed another English manager who has won the square root of nothing at the highest level and already he is talking it all down 

There is a good number of very talented English players but they will continue to fail at the highest level because they don't have a manager who can succeed at the highest level


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"Having a go" ?

All anyone is doing is judging the situation and using the managers past career to make a judgement on how they will do with England 

Only one previous manager has had a differing England career compared to his club career and that was Capello 

McClaren , Hodgson , Taylor - all previous English managers who won the square root of pretty much nothing at the highest level in football and they continued that with their failures in charge of England 

And then how did the FA learn from that - they employed another English manager who has won the square root of nothing at the highest level and already he is talking it all down 

There is a good number of very talented English players but they will continue to fail at the highest level because they don't have a manager who can succeed at the highest level
		
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Don't be so precious, have a look at facebook, twitter, some of the papers, I take very little notice of your opinion on England as you've made it quite clear your feelings towards the National team.

Posting on here the history of failures is all well and good and I'm fully aware of it, I've put he'd not be my choice but he is and me joining the moaners on here or anywhere else won't change it.

Therefore, I'll support him and hope he proves me and every other doubter wrong.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Don't be so precious, have a look at facebook, twitter, some of the papers, I take very little notice of your opinion on England as you've made it quite clear your feelings towards the National team.

Posting on here the history of failures is all well and good and I'm fully aware of it, I've put he'd not be my choice but he is and me joining the moaners on here or anywhere else won't change it.

Therefore, I'll support him and hope he proves me and every other doubter wrong.
		
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For big Sam to say he'd be happy with a point against an average Slovakian side  is embarrassing and something Hodgson would've said.

That squad should be beating them game after game. The expectations of the England side have never been lower for what I can remember.

Hodgson was lauded as a genius for a 100% record in previous qualifying against some very average teams, if big Sam doesn't do the same he's a failure.


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## Backache (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			"Having a go" ?

All anyone is doing is judging the situation and using the managers past career to make a judgement on how they will do with England 

Only one previous manager has had a differing England career compared to his club career and that was Capello 

McClaren , Hodgson , Taylor - all previous English managers who won the square root of pretty much nothing at the highest level in football and they continued that with their failures in charge of England 

And then how did the FA learn from that - they employed another English manager who has won the square root of nothing at the highest level and already he is talking it all down 

There is a good number of very talented English players but they will continue to fail at the highest level because they don't have a manager who can succeed at the highest level
		
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Revie and Eriksson were successful at a high level and unsuccessful with England, many foreign national managers have not been leading club managers but have done well with their teams.
England have done pretty well at qualifying for most tournaments but then gone out often to teams no better than those they qualified agianst I think you need to look at the premier league structure for Englands failings before their mangers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			For big Sam to say he'd be happy with a point against an average Slovakian side  is embarrassing and something Hodgson would've said.

That squad should be beating them game after game. The expectations of the England side have never been lower for what I can remember.

Hodgson was lauded as a genius for a 100% record in previous qualifying against some very average teams, if big Sam doesn't do the same he's a failure.
		
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The same side we drew with in the Euros, the same players who couldn't score against them, we are away, why should we beat them? Isn't that the attitude we get slagged off for?
Hodgsons gone mate, and I don't remember anyone saying he was a genius, simply that he couldn't of done anymore in qualifying and based on his qualfying record, why shouldn't we have got behind him.
If you read the whole interview he wants to win, hopes to win but would be happy with the draw, maybe his honesty will be his downfall.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The same side we drew with in the Euros, the same players who couldn't score against them, we are away, why should we beat them? Isn't that the attitude we get slagged off for?
Hodgsons gone mate, and I don't remember anyone saying he was a genius, simply that he couldn't of done anymore in qualifying and based on his qualfying record, why shouldn't we have got behind him.
If you read the whole interview he wants to win, hopes to win but would be happy with the draw, maybe his honesty will be his downfall.
		
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Why should England beat them?? Look at the quality of the squads and that'll give you the answer.

England and Hodgson didn't look as if they had a plan to beat anybody at the euros, they were abysmal. It's only El Tel who actually looked like having a plan and played players in their most natural positions at the time, but not necessarily the best players.

Sam has got to prove he's capable of being successful, comments like I'd be happy with a draw doesn't Instill confidence.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Why should England beat them?? Look at the quality of the squads and that'll give you the answer.

England and Hodgson didn't look as if they had a plan to beat anybody at the euros, they were abysmal. It's only El Tel who actually looked like having a plan and played players in their most natural positions at the time, but not necessarily the best players.

Sam has got to prove he's capable of being successful, comments like I'd be happy with a draw doesn't Instill confidence.
		
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So all the results in the Euros had nothing to do with the players? It was Roys fault they couldn't pass to each other or make a tackle or jump for a ball, same players mate, reality and expectation is 2 different things.
I take it if we Sam wins the group with a 100% record you expect us to win the World Cup? Personally I'd rather wait and see how Sam gets on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

Backache said:



			Revie and Eriksson were successful at a high level and unsuccessful with England, many foreign national managers have not been leading club managers but have done well with their teams.
England have done pretty well at qualifying for most tournaments but then gone out often to teams no better than those they qualified agianst I think you need to look at the premier league structure for Englands failings before their mangers.
		
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Eriksson for me got England to the level that they should be at - quarters of major tournaments - in the best 8 teams of the world is about right for England , with a bit of luck in shootouts it would have been semi's and the who nose. Eriksson did a decent job - maybe could have got a bit more 

England should qualify with ease every time - the players they have available are far superior than what they have to face 

Blaming the Prem is the typical cop out - all those players that went to the Euro's this summer played well throughout the season under their respective managers - under Hodgson in the finals they turned into clueless idiots on the pitch - that was down to the manager no one else.

The players are there for England to have performances within tournaments you would expect - quarters at the very least and semi finals and maybe a final - but the main thing holding them back is the FA 

Alongside Hodgson you had a guy in charge who used to look after the BBC ?! He was replaced by a guy who in and interview on national telly even stated he didn't really know about football ?!! These are the guys shaping the future of English football - businessmen with zero compentancy at football and will go for the safe , easy cheap option - hence Fat Sam getting the job next. So you continue the trend of managers who have done nothing given the England job - the players are there , can't keep blaming the Prem league and lack of winter break etc - it's the FA , the managers they pick and the tactics the managers employ


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eriksson for me got England to the level that they should be at - quarters of major tournaments - in the best 8 teams of the world is about right for England , with a bit of luck in shootouts it would have been semi's and the who nose. Eriksson did a decent job - maybe could have got a bit more 

England should qualify with ease every time - the players they have available are far superior than what they have to face 

Blaming the Prem is the typical cop out - all those players that went to the Euro's this summer played well throughout the season under their respective managers - under Hodgson in the finals they turned into clueless idiots on the pitch - that was down to the manager no one else.

The players are there for England to have performances within tournaments you would expect - quarters at the very least and semi finals and maybe a final - but the main thing holding them back is the FA 

Alongside Hodgson you had a guy in charge who used to look after the BBC ?! He was replaced by a guy who in and interview on national telly even stated he didn't really know about football ?!! These are the guys shaping the future of English football - businessmen with zero compentancy at football and will go for the safe , easy cheap option - hence Fat Sam getting the job next. So you continue the trend of managers who have done nothing given the England job - the players are there , can't keep blaming the Prem league and lack of winter break etc - it's the FA , the managers they pick and the tactics the managers employ
		
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And the failure cost Roy his job, no responsibility on the players then? His tactics were awful, but please explain how they lost the ability to challenge the opposition or find each other with a pass, once they cross the white line they have to be accountable, against Iceland not one player could come off that pitch with their head up.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So all the results in the Euros had nothing to do with the players? It was Roys fault they couldn't pass to each other or make a tackle or jump for a ball, same players mate, reality and expectation is 2 different things.
I take it if we Sam wins the group with a 100% record you expect us to win the World Cup? Personally I'd rather wait and see how Sam gets on.
		
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I didn't say that. Every single player who played needed to take responsibility for the abysmal performances equally as much as Hodgson, super pundit, and the back room staff. Playing players out of position was just following the trend of his predecessor's hence my valid point about the  euro 96 team. His tactics throughout the tournament were shocking.

I don't expect England to win it but the 1/4's /semis should be the minimum every tournament IMO.

I also expect that England squad to match the effort of their opponents then their quality should win them the games. But to do that they need to be set up to do it.

Unfortunately these days very few footballers can/will think for themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			I didn't say that. Every single player who played needed to take responsibility for the abysmal performances equally as much as Hodgson, super pundit, and the back room staff. Playing players out of position was just following the trend of his predecessor's hence my valid point about the  euro 96 team. His tactics throughout the tournament were shocking.

I don't expect England to win it but the 1/4's /semis should be the minimum every tournament IMO.

I also expect that England squad to match the effort of their opponents then their quality should win them the games. But to do that they need to be set up to do it.

Unfortunately these days very few footballers can/will think for themselves.
		
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Good post mate and totally agree with every word.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			And the failure cost Roy his job, no responsibility on the players then? His tactics were awful, but please explain how they lost the ability to challenge the opposition or find each other with a pass, once they cross the white line they have to be accountable, against Iceland not one player could come off that pitch with their head up.
		
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The manager ultimatly carries the blame - it's up to him to set up the team that suits the players , pick the right players in the first place , not mess around and change things during the tournament and when things aren't going well adapt the team and make changes 

Players will always at time have bad games - but you can't "sack" the players 

Hodgson rightly carries the blame for Euro because it was his poor management that was the main ingredient for them embarrassing themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The manager ultimatly carries the blame - it's up to him to set up the team that suits the players , pick the right players in the first place , not mess around and change things during the tournament and when things aren't going well adapt the team and make changes 

Players will always at time have bad games - but you can't "sack" the players 

Hodgson rightly carries the blame for Euro because it was his poor management that was the main ingredient for them embarrassing themselves.
		
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It's not acceptable for 11 players to have the same bad game, Stu summed up the players exactly for me.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Obviously it was Hodgeson who made the players incapable of making a basic pass to a team mate. 
The whole tournament was an embarrassment,obviously the manager will take the flack for it,but others were equally as guilty imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It's not acceptable for 11 players to have the same bad game, Stu summed up the players exactly for me.
		
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So what do you do to the players then ? 

You want them to accept responsibility as well so what happens to them ?


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what do you do to the players then ? 

You want them to accept responsibility as well so what happens to them ?
		
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I'd line them all up against the wall the and give them a kick in the balls, if that doesn't learn them nothing will.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

I think we can look at both the England rugby an cricket teams to see the difference a change in coach can have. Pretty much the same players, very different outcomes. The players should be ashamed that the improvement is so great but having a really good coach in charge clearly makes a difference. Tactics, attitude, man management, expectations.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what do you do to the players then ? 

You want them to accept responsibility as well so what happens to them ?
		
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We both know how a team works and we both know not everyone will agree with the manager, but once they are on the pitch I expect them to give a 100%, we hear all the time in interviews how they are happy to play in any position in any roll so long as they pull the England shirt on, sat at home we could see after 20 minutes Iceland were first to the ball and more up for the game, that's when I expect players to stand up and be counted.
If the 23 in this squad are the best in this Country then I would hope that even if me or you was the manager they would give 100% on the pitch.


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## Backache (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you continue the trend of managers who have done nothing given the England job - the players are there , can't keep blaming the Prem league and lack of winter break etc - it's the FA , the managers they pick and the tactics the managers employ
		
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The players generally play reasonably in the qualifiers under the same managers as they screw up with in the tournaments and the level of opposition is barely any higher They have done it with manager after manager including Eriksson who probably had the best of the crop of the last 25 years.
Non English premier league players rarely flourish at the finals  particularly those playing with the top clubs who play European football the PL has a lot to answer for.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

They should also have the nous to work out what is going wrong and sort it out for themselves. Even a quick back to basics for 5 minutes to steady the ship. That was sadly lacking at the Euro's.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			We both know how a team works and we both know not everyone will agree with the manager, but once they are on the pitch I expect them to give a 100%, we hear all the time in interviews how they are happy to play in any position in any roll so long as they pull the England shirt on, sat at home we could see after 20 minutes Iceland were first to the ball and more up for the game, that's when I expect players to stand up and be counted.
If the 23 in this squad are the best in this Country then I would hope that even if me or you was the manager they would give 100% on the pitch.
		
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But that doesn't really answer the question though 

What do you want to do with the players who failed ?

remember these are the same players that performed very well throughout the season for their respective clubs , played well in qualifiers yet looked like lost sheep in the finals - why the sudden change , why did the manager revert to type and pick out of form , pick players in the wrong position , swap lots of players for one match then drop them all again - it seemed to me the players didn't have the first clue about what was going on and looked totally devoid of any motivation or direction - yes the manager doesn't kick the ball but he has to motivate those players , set them up right , adjust if things aren't working - but he didn't none of that and just sat scratching his chin looking utterly clueless and watching 11 players just stumble around not having the first clue what do - no leader on the pitch , no leader of the pitch. Those players picked were good enough to get to the semi's - but they can't do it without direction 

Do players take responsiblity when they play poorly and without heart without effort  - yes they will but ultimatly you can't sack a whole squad of players and if it's one or two playing poorly then you sub them - but the whole 11 players on the pitch - then you look at the common denominator - the manager 

So the players won't pay any price for failures especially when it's the whole team but the manager rightly will.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Come on Phil, these are professional sportsmen at the top of their game, they shouldn't need to be told how to play football, they couldn't string 2 passes together or make a tackle, that's not down to Hodgson, the set up, tactics, yes, but basic football skills?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Phil, these are professional sportsmen at the top of their game, they shouldn't need to be told how to play football, they couldn't string 2 passes together or make a tackle, that's not down to Hodgson, the set up, tactics, yes, but basic football skills?
		
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But it happens though doesn't it -good players play poorly over a certain period because of the manager 

Look at Chelsea over the last two and bit seasons - one season untouchable , next season same players and shocking - same players but differing performances - why ? Clearly looking at this season there was problems with the manager 

We have seen it happens for decades - good teams going through poor periods 

So what do you want to do to the players when it happens ? 

Did Everton sack the players and punish them when they clearly under performed last year ? Nope the manager lost his job - all year we kept hearing it was the manager at fault for the poor performances - not the players 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the players take responsibility or not because you can't sack a whole squad 

So what exactly can you do ? You sack the manager and see what happens next 

The team is the responsibility of the manager - it's up to him to get them working and playing to their highest potential , if it's not working then it's up to him to make the changes , Hodgson could clearly see it wasn't working against Iceland - what did he do to change things beyond scratching his chin ? Nothing and they continued to under perform - footballers are simple people , over paid but need their hands held and they also need to be motivated and also need to have a clear tactical plan in their head - if that hasn't been given then they will be all over the place


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it happens though doesn't it -good players play poorly over a certain period because of the manager 

Look at Chelsea over the last two and bit seasons - one season untouchable , next season same players and shocking - same players but differing performances - why ? Clearly looking at this season there was problems with the manager 

We have seen it happens for decades - good teams going through poor periods 

So what do you want to do to the players when it happens ? 

Did Everton sack the players and punish them when they clearly under performed last year ? Nope the manager lost his job - all year we kept hearing it was the manager at fault for the poor performances - not the players 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the players take responsibility or not because you can't sack a whole squad 

So what exactly can you do ? You sack the manager and see what happens next 

The team is the responsibility of the manager - it's up to him to get them working and playing to their highest potential , if it's not working then it's up to him to make the changes , Hodgson could clearly see it wasn't working against Iceland - what did he do to change things beyond scratching his chin ? Nothing and they continued to under perform - footballers are simple people , over paid but need their hands held and they also need to be motivated and also need to have a clear tactical plan in their head - if that hasn't been given then they will be all over the place
		
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OK, so some fair points, but for all that you've already written Sam off without giving him a chance based on his past, who's to say this isn't the right combination?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			OK, so some fair points, but for all that you've already written Sam off without giving him a chance based on his past, who's to say this isn't the right combination?
		
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Because there is nothing to suggest that will be the case 

All history points to is no different than what England had before - a 20 year career manager who has had zero success at a high level beyond keeping mid table teams in the Prem , at least Hodgson had a bit of experience abroad but unless you count Limerick Fat Sam is a just a manager of mid table teams - that straight is no different than people like Taylor , McClaren and Hodgson.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Some terrible first touches by England players!


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## Robobum (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there is nothing to suggest that will be the case 

All history points to is no different than what England had before - a 20 year career manager who has had zero success at a high level beyond keeping mid table teams in the Prem , at least Hodgson had a bit of experience abroad but unless you count Limerick Fat Sam is a just a manager of mid table teams - that straight is no different than people like Taylor , McClaren and Hodgson.
		
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Why do you feel the need to prefix his name with anything?


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## User20205 (Sep 4, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Why do you feel the need to prefix his name with anything?
		
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It's what Phil does, he loves a nickname. Maybe we should 'christen' him. Any ideas??


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

I wonder if other nations have knobs that watch the national team hoping that they fail.
Or is it just an English thing?


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## Robobum (Sep 4, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			I wonder if other nations have knobs that watch the national team hoping that they fail.
Or is it just an English thing?
		
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Just a knob thing


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Just a knob thing
		
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Yeah probably,quite sad tho really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Can we keep the thread to discussing Football rather than it deteriorating into another waste of a thread that gets personal.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Can we keep the thread to discussing Football rather than it deteriorating into another waste of a thread that gets personal.
		
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Ok Mod Paul &#128077;&#127995;


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## User20205 (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Can we keep the thread to discussing Football rather than it deteriorating into another waste of a thread that gets personal.
		
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It's not being discussed, the same laboured point is being repeated made, just like all the other football threads. 
Give Sam a chance, at least give him a few games.


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## Robobum (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Can we keep the thread to discussing Football rather than it deteriorating into another waste of a thread that gets personal.
		
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Keep it as a waste of a thread slagging off people you don't know? Ok &#128077;


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

The pitch seems to be cutting up easy. 
Some right divots coming up.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

therod said:



			It's what Phil does, he loves a nickname. Maybe we should 'christen' him. Any ideas??

Click to expand...

He's already got GooglePhil


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Robobum said:



			Keep it as a waste of a thread slagging off people you don't know? Ok &#128077;
		
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You asked Phil a fair straightforward question, which up to now he hasn't answered, why does it then have to go downhill with petty comments,


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

What's happened to Harry Kane?


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Sterling is pants.

I hope that he proves me wrong and does something special but I just can't see it happening.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Sterling is pants.

I hope that he proves me wrong and does something special but I just can't see it happening.
		
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I'm not his biggest fan,but he's started the season well for City.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Sterling is pants.

I hope that he proves me wrong and does something special but I just can't see it happening.
		
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Tbf nobody is doing much.


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## anotherdouble (Sep 4, 2016)

After 43 minutes I have concluded thank you Wayne but goodbye.


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## User20205 (Sep 4, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			I'm not his biggest fan,but he's started the season well for City.
		
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He fits the pick a player in form criteria. I don't watch enough of Spurs, but I've seen nothing from Harry Kane & Danny rose to say they should start.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Tbf nobody is doing much.
		
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Rooney is dominating the midfield


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			Rooney is dominating the midfield
		
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Hate to say it, but we miss the Gerard/Lampard type who can spread the ball and go on runs at the defence, Rooney should in and around the box for me, not sure what Henderson's role/position is?


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

He can't beat a man and his distribution is awful.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

Sorry I thought my sarcasm was plain to see


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			Sorry I thought my sarcasm was plain to see
		
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:rofl: Woooshhh


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there is nothing to suggest that will be the case 

All history points to is no different than what England had before - a 20 year career manager who has had zero success at a high level beyond keeping mid table teams in the Prem , at least Hodgson had a bit of experience abroad but unless you count Limerick Fat Sam is a just a manager of mid table teams - that straight is no different than people like Taylor , McClaren and Hodgson.
		
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And just how much success did we have under either Eriksson or Capello?

The truth of the matter is that we have very few, if any, players of true quality and have not had for many years. It is certainly not a cop-out to blame the Premier League for this as it (the PL) has become so bloated in its importance by the media, the money and then the fans that there is a demand for instant results. 

The players, as a result, believe they are better than they are compared with those of supposedly lesser nations such as Wales or Iceland where the players compensate for their limitations with commitment and organisation, the latter admittedly the responsibility of the manager.

However, the England manager is hampered by the PL and the its clubs and their interests.The clubs' managers, most of whom are foreign, have no interest in the performance of the national team and are far more concerned to achieve results for their club's owners (also increasingly foreign).Thus they take the quick and easy route of recruiting established players from overseas rather than develop home grown talent. Even the much vaunted academies are increasingly developing foreign youngsters.

On any week-end the number of players starting in the PL eligible for the Home Nations is likely to be only around 30%.

As with any pyramid, if you have a narrow base you do not have a high peak.


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## Piece (Sep 4, 2016)

Been watching Eng v Pak in the cricket and totally forgot about this game. Looks like nothing has been missed! :rofl:


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## williamalex1 (Sep 4, 2016)

Here we go again, Slovakia v England is shown live and free on Scottish !!!! TV, yet the Malta v Scotland live game is on pay to view Sky Sports 1.


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## User20205 (Sep 4, 2016)

williamalex1 said:



			Here we go again, Slovakia v England is shown live and free on Scottish !!!! TV, yet the Malta v Scotland live game is on pay to view Sky Sports 1.
		
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You wouldn't want to pay to watch the England game, would you?


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

England would be 8up now if Billic was in charge.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Starting to look forward to the Scotland v Malta game, can't be any worse........can it?


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

The screaming skull strikes again


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Skrtel is scum.


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## anotherdouble (Sep 4, 2016)

Skrtel what a thug. Should have been a straight red


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Dirty sly scum bag!


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## anotherdouble (Sep 4, 2016)

Bit embarrassing that dive Wayne


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2016)

Why was Walcott not picked for the Euros?
Oh aye, because he's tripe.
Looks like a replay from the other month, clueless and classless inside the box.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

So we are running out of time and what does captain Rooney do?  Waste even more of it arguing with a referee who will never change his mind.  Well done Wayne.


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## Piece (Sep 4, 2016)

Different manager, same rubbish. No skill no movement. 

Errr...then some luck!!! :rofl:


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Get in,nice finish from Big Sam.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Better to be a lucky manager than a good one?

That will do very nicely for the first game in charge.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Absolute garbage, gone backwards from the Euros and we get 3 points, you couldn't make it up :rofl: Big Sam's got a plan :rofl:


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## full_throttle (Sep 4, 2016)

awful game IMO, but a win is a win


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## anotherdouble (Sep 4, 2016)

full_throttle said:



			awful game IMO, but a win is a win
		
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Sums it up perfectly


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## User20205 (Sep 4, 2016)

Turned it off  90mins to go and watch some paint dry. Is that the arm chair version of leaving early to miss the traffic?

There's your answer Phil. What has Sam ever won? 100% record in international football!!!
We all know there's no easy games in international football anymore


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And just how much success did we have under either Eriksson or Capello?

*The truth of the matter is that we have very few, if any, players of true quality and have not had for many years. *It is certainly not a cop-out to blame the Premier League for this as it (the PL) has become so bloated in its importance by the media, the money and then the fans that there is a demand for instant results. 

The players, as a result, believe they are better than they are compared with those of supposedly lesser nations such as Wales or Iceland where the players compensate for their limitations with commitment and organisation, the latter admittedly the responsibility of the manager.

However, the England manager is hampered by the PL and the its clubs and their interests.The clubs' managers, most of whom are foreign, have no interest in the performance of the national team and are far more concerned to achieve results for their club's owners (also increasingly foreign).Thus they take the quick and easy route of recruiting established players from overseas rather than develop home grown talent. Even the much vaunted academies are increasingly developing foreign youngsters.

On any week-end the number of players starting in the PL eligible for the Home Nations is likely to be only around 30%.

As with any pyramid, if you have a narrow base you do not have a high peak.
		
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Beat me to it.  As a Chelsea fan, we have a better English centre half not playing that the one we had representing us, but I know that one's been done to death.

Question; you are manager of your team, which player or players in that squad would you take to improve your team?  For me, maybe Dele Alli but no-one else strikes me as a must buy.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Beat me to it.  As a Chelsea fan, we have a better English centre half not playing that the one we had representing us, but I know that one's been done to death.

Question; you are manager of your team, which player or players in that squad would you take to improve your team?  For me, maybe Dele Alli but no-one else strikes me as a must buy.
		
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Is Dele Alli actually any good?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Beat me to it.  As a Chelsea fan, we have a better English centre half not playing that the one we had representing us, but I know that one's been done to death.

Question; you are manager of your team, which player or players in that squad would you take to improve your team?  For me, maybe Dele Alli but no-one else strikes me as a must buy.
		
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Nobody, keep an eye on a couple for the future, but none right now.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

whats most worrying about this whole thing is Sam just said Rooney had a great game


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			whats most worrying about this whole thing is Sam just said Rooney had a great game
		
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Sometimes wonder what games managers are watching.


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## Fyldewhite (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			whats most worrying about this whole thing is Sam just said Rooney had a great game
		
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He had to say that, he's his Captain but personally I think Rooney is optimistic saying he'll retire after this campaign. In truth, we bossed the game, were pretty tight at the back, bar one mistake but were (again) not too creative up front until we got the more creative players involved. The last 20 minutes could have easily been 3-0.

Direct comparison to the Hull v Man U game a couple of weeks ago. Some teams are damned hard to break down and as long as you don't lose it's an OK (if not brilliant) result. However, if Man U hadn't got the winner then Mourinho I'm pretty sure would have got nowhere near the flack Big Sam would have got if England hadn't scraped the winner today. Really pleased for him as it gets the press off his back while he gets the side playing how he wants.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And just how much success did we have under either Eriksson or Capello?

The truth of the matter is that we have very few, if any, players of true quality and have not had for many years. It is certainly not a cop-out to blame the Premier League for this as it (the PL) has become so bloated in its importance by the media, the money and then the fans that there is a demand for instant results. 

The players, as a result, believe they are better than they are compared with those of supposedly lesser nations such as Wales or Iceland where the players compensate for their limitations with commitment and organisation, the latter admittedly the responsibility of the manager.

However, the England manager is hampered by the PL and the its clubs and their interests.The clubs' managers, most of whom are foreign, have no interest in the performance of the national team and are far more concerned to achieve results for their club's owners (also increasingly foreign).Thus they take the quick and easy route of recruiting established players from overseas rather than develop home grown talent. Even the much vaunted academies are increasingly developing foreign youngsters.

On any week-end the number of players starting in the PL eligible for the Home Nations is likely to be only around 30%.

As with any pyramid, if you have a narrow base you do not have a high peak.
		
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How many players do teams like Iceland , Wales , Portugal have to pick from ? 

They aren't littered with global stars but all managed to perform to get further in the tournament. Portugal won it with their one real star not really playing well 

I agree that teams focus on ready made players and it's cheaper to get them from abroad but I think if you look at the Prem league there is another players to get a decent England team together and one that will get to quarters or maybe a semi which is the sort of level you expect England to be at 

Even the current squad was missing two of its brightest talents - Barkley and Rashford , two players with bag of talent who can hurt teams , then you have players like Sterljng who for Man City this season has been superb and key to the way they have started. 

Yes there is a lot of foreign imports into the Prem but can't see that changing but there is IMO still enough talented playing in the Prem that if managed and coached right are capable of progressing in summer tournaments


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many players do teams like Iceland , Wales , Portugal have to pick from ? 

They aren't littered with global stars but all managed to perform to get further in the tournament. Portugal won it with their one real star not really playing well 

I agree that teams focus on ready made players and it's cheaper to get them from abroad but I think if you look at the Prem league there is another players to get a decent England team together and one that will get to quarters or maybe a semi which is the sort of level you expect England to be at 

Even the current squad was missing two of its brightest talents - Barkley and Rashford , two players with bag of talent who can hurt teams , then you have players like Sterljng who for Man City this season has been superb and key to the way they have started. 

Yes there is a lot of foreign imports into the Prem but can't see that changing but there is IMO still enough talented playing in the Prem that if managed and coached right are capable of progressing in summer tournaments
		
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Well Chris Waddle doesn't agree with you. Just said on Radio 5 that S am Allardyce has far too small a pool of players to pick from and it isn't getting any better. 

Just look at last week's results in the EFL Trophy where the U23 teams from most of the PL clubs came in with a view to gaining meaningful experience. Almost without exception the League 1 & 2 clubs, many of whom did not field their strongest teams, came out on top.

The players of Wales and Iceland have lower expectations placed upon them and are, themselves, more realistic about their capabilities.


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## Imurg (Sep 4, 2016)

I'm not sure what everyone was expecting..
It's basically the same team from 3 months ago, the manager's been in place for a month and has had the players for less than a week...
Not much time to effect any real change....


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well Chris Waddle doesn't agree with you. Just said on Radio 5 that S am Allardyce has far too small a pool of players to pick from and it isn't getting any better. 

Just look at last week's results in the EFL Trophy where the U23 teams from most of the PL clubs came in with a view to gaining meaningful experience. Almost without exception the League 1 & 2 clubs, many of whom did not field their strongest teams, came out on top.

The players of Wales and Iceland have lower expectations placed upon them and are, themselves, more realistic about their capabilities.
		
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And Waddle is totally correct. As the influx of overseas players to the PL continues, the pool of top class English players diminishes. We've rarely if ever in recent memory looked at the Championship for players but I fear it's a possibility going forward. Where else do you look if the PL pool reduces?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And just how much success did we have under either Eriksson or Capello?

The truth of the matter is that we have very few, if any, players of true quality and have not had for many years. It is certainly not a cop-out to blame the Premier League for this as it (the PL) has become so bloated in its importance by the media, the money and then the fans that there is a demand for instant results. 

The players, as a result, believe they are better than they are compared with those of supposedly lesser nations such as Wales or Iceland where the players compensate for their limitations with commitment and organisation, the latter admittedly the responsibility of the manager.

However, the England manager is hampered by the PL and the its clubs and their interests.The clubs' managers, most of whom are foreign, have no interest in the performance of the national team and are far more concerned to achieve results for their club's owners (also increasingly foreign).Thus they take the quick and easy route of recruiting established players from overseas rather than develop home grown talent. Even the much vaunted academies are increasingly developing foreign youngsters.

On any week-end the number of players starting in the PL eligible for the Home Nations is likely to be only around 30%.

As with any pyramid, if you have a narrow base you do not have a high peak.
		
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Agree. And of the 30% then about 70% of those play for unfashionable teams that means they have little chance of playing for England. And those that play for big teams who do get picked are mostly made to look good in their domestic teams by foreign players who make the teams tick. 

We are where we are, holding 10 man Slovakia to a draw/last second win is kind of the level we are at. We may beat better teams, we may lose to worse ones.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And Waddle is totally correct. As the influx of overseas players to the PL continues, the pool of top class English players diminishes. We've rarely if ever in recent memory looked at the Championship for players but I fear it's a possibility going forward. Where else do you look if the PL pool reduces?
		
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And the reason for the influx is that technically they are streets ahead because of the way they run youth football, something Martin Samuel pointed out years ago.  What have we changed?  Absolutely nothing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Well Chris Waddle doesn't agree with you. Just said on Radio 5 that S am Allardyce has far too small a pool of players to pick from and it isn't getting any better. 

Just look at last week's results in the EFL Trophy where the U23 teams from most of the PL clubs came in with a view to gaining meaningful experience. Almost without exception the League 1 & 2 clubs, many of whom did not field their strongest teams, came out on top.

The players of Wales and Iceland have lower expectations placed upon them and are, themselves, more realistic about their capabilities.
		
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Chris Waddle also wants players like Lallana and Sterling to play as wingers to hug the touch line and dribble past fullbacks when it's clearly not their game , Waddle also questioned why Rashford and players like Drinkwater , Vardy and Barkley weren't playing. 

Teams like Wales and Iceland got further in the Euro's with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level than England , same with N Ireland , as I said Portugal have a smaller pool of players with only a handful of recognised names - so how come teams with smaller pool of players and players playing at a lower level than England can go further ? Because of good management and playing the right people. 

Do England have the players to get into quarters and semi finals - yes they do 

England have won one comp in over a hundred years so why is there an expectation they should do more than Quarters or semi finals ? 

Blaming the Premier League is just a cop out and masks plenty of issues that can be drilled right back to the FA - England have failed even when there was zero foreign players playing in the top clubs


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 4, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Agree. And of the 30% then about 70% of those play for unfashionable teams that means they have little chance of playing for England. And those that play for big teams who do get picked are mostly made to look good in their domestic teams by foreign players who make the teams tick. 

We are where we are, holding 10 man Slovakia to a draw/last second win is kind of the level we are at. We may beat better teams, we may lose to worse ones.
		
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You are so right. We struggled to break Slovakia down (again) and we are at best at the second tier of European nations and a lot further down on a world stage, irrespective of what FIFA ranking may say. Even when we qualify we look inadequate on a European or world stage and tonight gives me no reason to believe that Allardyce is going to be any closer to solving this problem than his predecessors


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

I'm made up for Lallana, he takes stick week in week out but he  played well today and spared Big Sam's blushes with a goal.

It's hard to appreciate some footballers from the comfort of your armchair, sky don't show everything.


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm made up for Lallana, he takes stick week in week out but he  played well today and spared Big Sam's blushes with a goal.

It's hard to appreciate some footballers from the comfort of your armchair, sky don't show everything.
		
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To be fair, he was probably our best player in the Euro's


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

chrisd said:



			To be fair, he was probably our best player in the Euro's
		
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I agree. He's improved for us, he just needs to add more goals.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2016)

Well just caught up on the football, and the thread. 

Key points bout the game. We managed to beat a team we struggled against a few weeks a go so that's a positive. Rooney is struggling, still think there's a decent cm in him, but only with pace ahead of him. He still played some good balls. 

As as to our players in general, how many of them are the star? If you're sterling, do you looking better playing alongside a flying Gerard, Suarez and sturridge or silva and aguero. Or a static kane and clueless Walcott. 
 most of our players are decent, few are their teams star man. And whilst they may be better as individuals than what Wales or Iceland have, whilst they believe their hype they won't out perform these teams, as talent only gets you so far. Even the barca of the last, few years have won the ball back better than most before showing their talents.  

No no matter who's in charge, if the players don't roll their sleeves up then they will continue to cost managers their jobs with inept performances.


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## paddyc (Sep 4, 2016)

Its a win and thats what matters.The slovakians were always going to put 11 behind the ball just like the euros and try and frustrate England. Sam's first priority was to shore up the defence and not lose the game. We will be hard to beat but it won't be pretty as we grind out one nil wins


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## pbrown7582 (Sep 4, 2016)

paddyc said:



			Its a win and thats what matters.The slovakians were always going to put 11 behind the ball just like the euros and try and frustrate England. Sam's first priority was to shore up the defence and not lose the game. We will be hard to beat but it won't be pretty as we grind out one nil wins
		
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Exactly how can much change in 4 days between June and sept? Toughest match in the group we won.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Chris Waddle also wants players like Lallana and Sterling to play as wingers to hug the touch line and dribble past fullbacks when it's clearly not their game , Waddle also questioned why Rashford and players like Drinkwater , Vardy and Barkley weren't playing. 

Teams like Wales and Iceland got further in the Euro's with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level than England , same with N Ireland , as I said Portugal have a smaller pool of players with only a handful of recognised names - so how come teams with smaller pool of players and players playing at a lower level than England can go further ? Because of good management and playing the right people. 

Do England have the players to get into quarters and semi finals - yes they do 

England have won one comp in over a hundred years so why is there an expectation they should do more than Quarters or semi finals ? 

Blaming the Premier League is just a cop out and masks plenty of issues that can be drilled right back to the FA - England have failed even when there was zero foreign players playing in the top clubs
		
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I have heard Waddle suggest that England require width from other than the full-backs, he has not suggested that it should specifically provided by Lallana or Sterling. Mind you it would not have been unreasonable to ask them to do so tonight as they neither are international class in more central roles. But then what England player is truly international class?

It is ludicrous to suggest we have the quality of players to reach quarter and semi-finals. We clearly do not. How many of tonight's team are consistent performers for their club sides? They rely upon the foreign players in their teams to carry them through.

The influx of foreign players to our leagues took hold in the early 90's and from that point on it has been pretty consistently downhill.

As for the shortage of young players coming through, don't blame the FA; the clubs have demanded that their academy system should sit at the top of youth development and we can all see how unsuccessful that has been.

We all have to realise that the Club game is all powerful and dominant in English football, and once we accept that we can, hopefully, stop placing unrealistic expectations on the national side.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2016)

Interesting how different people can watch the same match and come up with such different opinions. I thought Rooney, Henderson, Kane and Lallana stood out as being especially poor in an overall poor performance. Until Dele Alli came on England were far too static when going forward. The man on the ball was looking up for someone to pass forwards to and all the players in advanced positions were standing still facing him rather than looking to make a run.

Would there be any merit in looking at a 5-3-2/3-5-2 formation? I know we aren't blessed with centre backs but maybe Cahill, Smalling and Stones at the back. Walker and Rose providing the width. Dier, Alli and AN Other in the centre of midfield and then either 2 up front or one up front with one in behind. Not sure if it would work but surely we need to try something different rather than trotting out the same sub standard performances time and time again.


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## anotherdouble (Sep 4, 2016)

I think as a mid 50 year old what I saw tonight I will have to put up with for the rest of my days. It is stupid of me to expect any different especially when 7 of the 14 players tonight were in the 2014 World Cup squad and that campaign was hardly successful and the  same players carried our hopes through euro 2016. I will still watch every game more with hope than expectation but with some stroke of luck and good fortune I get see a tournament winning England side before I meet St Peter at the gates


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Imurg said:



			I'm not sure what everyone was expecting..
It's basically the same team from 3 months ago, the manager's been in place for a month and has had the players for less than a week...
Not much time to effect any real change....
		
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Exactly right.

Sam probably played it safe for his first game in charge not making too many sweeping changes and over time he will drop people that aren't cutting it and draft in new faces.

Give the guy a chance I say.


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## paddyc (Sep 4, 2016)

Yes it was the same team and similar performance except the result, but I did feel there was more committment,desire,passion and confidence and know Allardyce is a great motivator and they were playing for him unlike Hodgson


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I have heard Waddle suggest that England require width from other than the full-backs, he has not suggested that it should specifically provided by Lallana or Sterling. Mind you it would not have been unreasonable to ask them to do so tonight as they neither are international class in more central roles. But then what England player is truly international class?

It is ludicrous to suggest we have the quality of players to reach quarter and semi-finals. We clearly do not. How many of tonight's team are consistent performers for their club sides? They rely upon the foreign players in their teams to carry them through.

The influx of foreign players to our leagues took hold in the early 90's and from that point on it has been pretty consistently downhill.

As for the shortage of young players coming through, don't blame the FA; the clubs have demanded that their academy system should sit at the top of youth development and we can all see how unsuccessful that has been.

We all have to realise that the Club game is all powerful and dominant in English football, and once we accept that we can, hopefully, stop placing unrealistic expectations on the national side.
		
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So again I'll ask the same question that doesn't seem to be getting answered 

Why do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing in lower leagues with less talented players seem to get further in tournaments ? 

The England team today all had key players from top clubs 

Except Hart now The back four all starters from CL Clubs , all the starting line up are starters at big clubs in the Prem. Then there is key players from the Prem League winners in Vardy and Drinkwater 

The England squad has more ability in it that other teams that have progressed further - it has been poorly managed for a good number of years 

As for the youth - during the summer the England U21 won the Toulon Comp , the under 20's into the Semi's of their comp

Far too quickly people dismiss talented English players - have the reason is because fossil managers don't have a clue what to do with creative players like Rashford or Barkley , they are far too scared to let players express themselves - Sterling is a classic case , Pep arrives and rebuilds his shattered confidence and gets him showing the talent that made City pay Â£50 mil - goes to England and it's the same old same old - give him and players like Lallana , Barkely , Rashford etc the license to express themselves on a pitch. Tonight why when going away to play a team that was always going to sit deep did they play Dier as a sitting mid meaning Rooney dropping to halfway line to pick the ball up which then leaves Kane isolated again. They didn't need Dier - put Drinkwater alongside Barkley , they can control the game and let the guys in front be fluid , Walker is another issue at RB - he is quick and that's it , he can't go past people or cross the ball so why not bring in Clynne who can go past people 

It needs a brave bright fresh young manager to play the players properly and get the best out of their talents but for that it needs the FA to be brave as well and that's never going to happen 

There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at. 

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for 

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Surely Big Sam can play the old "It's not my team yet"and then obviously he needs time for the team to gel. 
Or is that just League managers that get time?


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 4, 2016)

Didnt really see any difference than the Euro shambles really. Don't see the point in Rooney.....wandering off as he likes confusing everyone else with them being afraid to get in the "saviours" way. If they got a position to play then play it, and if they won't put someone else on who will do the TEAM ETHIC thing.
 As usual England is all about individuals which is why we will never get anywhere.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 4, 2016)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Didnt really see any difference than the Euro shambles really. Don't see the point in Rooney.....wandering off as he likes confusing everyone else with them being afraid to get in the "saviours" way. If they got a position to play then play it, and if they won't put someone else on who will do the TEAM ETHIC thing.
 As usual England is all about individuals which is why we will never get anywhere.
		
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Even Alladyce was saying post match that Rooney didn't seem to stick to the plan and was roaming too freely. Does Rooney think he's too big and too important as captain to do as he's asked


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## Piece (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So again I'll ask the same question that doesn't seem to be getting answered 

Why do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing in lower leagues with less talented players seem to get further in tournaments ? 

The England team today all had key players from top clubs 

Except Hart now The back four all starters from CL Clubs , all the starting line up are starters at big clubs in the Prem. Then there is key players from the Prem League winners in Vardy and Drinkwater 

The England squad has more ability in it that other teams that have progressed further - it has been poorly managed for a good number of years 

As for the youth - during the summer the England U21 won the Toulon Comp , the under 20's into the Semi's of their comp

Far too quickly people dismiss talented English players - have the reason is because fossil managers don't have a clue what to do with creative players like Rashford or Barkley , they are far too scared to let players express themselves - Sterling is a classic case , Pep arrives and rebuilds his shattered confidence and gets him showing the talent that made City pay Â£50 mil - goes to England and it's the same old same old - give him and players like Lallana , Barkely , Rashford etc the license to express themselves on a pitch. Tonight why when going away to play a team that was always going to sit deep did they play Dier as a sitting mid meaning Rooney dropping to halfway line to pick the ball up which then leaves Kane isolated again. They didn't need Dier - put Drinkwater alongside Barkley , they can control the game and let the guys in front be fluid , Walker is another issue at RB - he is quick and that's it , he can't go past people or cross the ball so why not bring in Clynne who can go past people 

It needs a brave bright fresh young manager to play the players properly and get the best out of their talents but for that it needs the FA to be brave as well and that's never going to happen 

There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at. 

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for 

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.
		
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Great post, totally agree.


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## Slime (Sep 4, 2016)

Imurg said:



			I'm not sure what everyone was expecting..
It's basically the same team from 3 months ago, the manager's been in place for a month and has had the players for less than a week...
Not much time to effect any real change....
		
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Spot on.

I actually enjoyed the game, especially seeing a manager with passion.
As for Rooney, too many people decided he played badly before the game had even started!
I actually thought he played well, but, as no-one ahead of him was showing any movement, he was left between a rock and a hard place.
That changed when Alli came on, thankfully.
Henderson, Rose, Kane and Sterling were all very poor, but Walcott was just shocking.
Lallana was excellent and I was so pleased for him when he scored.
Alli was also very good and must surely start in our next game.
When Slovakia had that thug sent off, nothing changed  ....................... they still played with ten men behind the ball  and did defend very well.
It's never easy trying to break down a team of ten defenders.
What England needed was someone with pace who is happy to run at defenders all day long.
I think we needed Rashford, oh, and Alli on from the start.
Happy for Lallane and happy for Big Sam.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 4, 2016)

Slime said:



			Spot on.

I actually enjoyed the game, especially seeing a manager with passion.
As for Rooney, too many people decided he played badly before the game had even started!
I actually thought he played well, but, as no-one ahead of him was showing any movement, he was left between a rock and a hard place.
That changed when Alli came on, thankfully.
Henderson, Rose, Kane and Sterling were all very poor, but Walcott was just shocking.
Lallana was excellent and I was so pleased for him when he scored.
Alli was also very good and must surely start in our next game.
When Slovakia had that thug sent off, nothing changed  ....................... they still played with ten men behind the ball  and did defend very well.
It's never easy trying to break down a team of ten defenders.
What England needed was someone with pace who is happy to run at defenders all day long.
I think we needed Rashford, oh, and Alli on from the start.
Happy for Lallane and happy for Big Sam.
		
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The question I guess is Allardyce going to be prepared to let the younger players play. Hodgson did to a degree in qualifiers and we looked reasonable (against a not very strong group admittedly) and then reverted to type in France. Is the new man going to go for pace and movement or will it be a cautious, safety first and take the 1-0 approach going forward.

I accept that with so little time and a qualifier as the first game, there was a need to find a way to get it done, but I didn't think it was a good performance and players of the calibre we had against ten men should have found a way to break them down. An interesting side fact, courtesy of SSN, we've now had 47 attempts at goal in the two matches vs Slovakia and scored once


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Slime said:



			Spot on.

I actually enjoyed the game, especially seeing a manager with passion.
As for Rooney, too many people decided he played badly before the game had even started!
I actually thought he played well, but, as no-one ahead of him was showing any movement, he was left between a rock and a hard place.
That changed when Alli came on, thankfully.
Henderson, Rose, Kane and Sterling were all very poor, *but Walcott was just shocking.
*Lallana was excellent and I was so pleased for him when he scored.
Alli was also very good and must surely start in our next game.
When Slovakia had that thug sent off, nothing changed  ....................... they still played with ten men behind the ball  and did defend very well.
It's never easy trying to break down a team of ten defenders.
What England needed was someone with pace who is happy to run at defenders all day long.
I think we needed Rashford, oh, and Alli on from the start.
Happy for Lallane and happy for Big Sam.
		
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He came on with 20 mins to go. Did you expect him to score a hatrick?


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			Surely Big Sam can play the old "It's not my team yet"and then obviously he needs time for the team to gel. 
Or is that just League managers that get time?
		
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Yes just league managers can use that old chestnut. He has an open book of players to pick from.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Why mention Barkley or Rashford when they weren't in the squad? 
He made no changes at half time so must've been happy with the starting 11, once Skrtel went why didn't he bring Vardy on, thought the whole performance was awful and saw very little difference from any of the players who played in the Euros.
I posted this morning that he'd only met the squad 5 days ago and he was on a no win situation tonight.

He'll be relieved to get the first game behind him and the next 3-4 games I would hope to see him start to get the formation and the players he wants to play in that formation right.

If they're the next biggest team in our group then in all honesty I'm not sure we'll be any further forward till we (hopefully) get to Russia.


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2016)

Good start for Scotland, can't ask for much more than that.  It might only be Malta but those "only Malta" games have long been the ones we slip up in, so great to get off to a good start this time around.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Yes just league managers can use that old chestnut. He has an open book of players to pick from.
		
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He still needs time to find his best 11 and formation though, I would like to see him try as many players as possible then decide on the best 11 and stick to it.

IMO he needs to do things differently and make his own mind up on who plays well together instead of just opting for the peoples favorites.

Ultimately if the players arent good enough then there is a limit to what he can do anyway.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			Yes just league managers can use that old chestnut. He has an open book of players to pick from.
		
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But all have to be English &#128580;


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 4, 2016)

Malta up next and then Slovenia and I don't think we have any friendlies in between. I can see some changes for the Malta game but would imagine he'll play a similar side to today for Slovenia away. Once he gets the friendlies then he can begin to experiment and introduce different players and tactics. As someone wanting us to get to Moscow I'll take a good win vs Malta and another 1-0 away win. I do want to see an improved performance though.


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

Why do people feel the need to leap to the defence of players that play for their club side. No one is slagging of your beloved club so calm down. 
If a player has been rubbish then call it, regardless of whether they play for your side or not. When you defend them you just come across clueless.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at. 

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for 

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.
		
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Rightly or wrongly Rashford is not starting at Man U and Barkley has only been a regular starter for three games, under Martinez he was in & out. 

As for the back four being at CL clubs just how many CL games have Walker, Stones & Rose played in their careers.

We can all suggest changes from within the squad, personally I would not have Henderson within 100 miles of an England side, but the fact remains the pool is very shallow. 

The Premier League started in 1992 and England have struggled ever since. The difficulties of the 1970's and 80's could be attributed to the post- Ramsey difficulties created by Revie and were not arrested until the appointment of Robson.

When the PL was launched it was claimed it would benefit the national team but nobody could ever claim this has been the case. Rather it has further divorced the club game from the internationals which would appear to satisfy most fans of the so called big clubs.

BTW bright young managers are not always the answer. Remember Brenda?


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So again I'll ask the same question that doesn't seem to be getting answered 

Why do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing in lower leagues with less talented players seem to get further in tournaments ? 

The England team today all had key players from top clubs 

Except Hart now The back four all starters from CL Clubs , all the starting line up are starters at big clubs in the Prem. Then there is key players from the Prem League winners in Vardy and Drinkwater 

The England squad has more ability in it that other teams that have progressed further - it has been poorly managed for a good number of years 

As for the youth - during the summer the England U21 won the Toulon Comp , the under 20's into the Semi's of their comp

Far too quickly people dismiss talented English players - have the reason is because fossil managers don't have a clue what to do with creative players like Rashford or Barkley , they are far too scared to let players express themselves - Sterling is a classic case , Pep arrives and rebuilds his shattered confidence and gets him showing the talent that made City pay Â£50 mil - goes to England and it's the same old same old - give him and players like Lallana , Barkely , Rashford etc the license to express themselves on a pitch. Tonight why when going away to play a team that was always going to sit deep did they play Dier as a sitting mid meaning Rooney dropping to halfway line to pick the ball up which then leaves Kane isolated again. They didn't need Dier - put Drinkwater alongside Barkley , they can control the game and let the guys in front be fluid , Walker is another issue at RB - he is quick and that's it , he can't go past people or cross the ball so why not bring in Clynne who can go past people 

It needs a brave bright fresh young manager to play the players properly and get the best out of their talents but for that it needs the FA to be brave as well and that's never going to happen 

There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at. 

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for 

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.
		
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Good to see your now taking a big interest in the national squad.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2016)

I'll refer people to page 1. I should have gone to see strippers after all. Bog awful match, even seen through beer goggles.

I've learnt that a 5 o clock match means that in a pub: 

You meet single blokes who have been drinking all afternoon. They either want to fight, go comatose or hug you. None are great options.

Rubbish football is still rubbish.

You meet people who play golf and so you can still talk golf nonsense despite being half cut. I'm now playing in a pub golf society day despite not being part of the society. How did that happen? Beer!!

Playing piggy in the middle of a split is not fun.

I can't drink more than 3 pints of beer and not struggle or suffer. What a woos.

Next qualifier I'm gan the Toon &#128513;


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			He came on with 20 mins to go. Did you expect him to score a hatrick?
		
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Being able to control a football whilst on the run, being able to time a run to stay onside and hitting the target when presented with an opportunity would be a good starting point.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			Why do people feel the need to leap to the defence of players that play for their club side. No one is slagging of your beloved club so calm down. 
If a player has been rubbish then call it, regardless of whether they play for your side or not. When you defend them you just come across clueless.
		
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Its clueless not realising how difficult it is to come on as a sub with 20 mins to go. Maybe some people just havent played the game before I dont know.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Being able to control a football whilst on the run, being able to time a run to stay onside and hitting the target when presented with an opportunity would be a good starting point. 

Click to expand...

Case in point.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			He still needs time to find his best 11 and formation though, I would like to see him try as many players as possible then decide on the best 11 and stick to it.

IMO he needs to do things differently and make his own mind up on who plays well together instead of just opting for the peoples favorites.

*Ultimately if the players arent good enough then there is a limit to what he can do anyway*.
		
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Should've just stuck with Hodgson then, the FA would've saved a load of dosh.

Sam will get time to try different tactics, I'd just like to see players in their natural positions.

Leicester won the league with good players, not world class or top top top top top top players. 

Greece won the euros with a squad who played a particular way and every single player knew their jobs.

Portugal won the it this year with a decent squad, not much better than England squad apart from Ronaldo. OK they had Ronaldo but he wasn't exactly on top form, he wasn't the main reason they won it.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So again I'll ask the same question that doesn't seem to be getting answered 

Why do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing in lower leagues with less talented players seem to get further in tournaments ? 

The England team today all had key players from top clubs 

Except Hart now The back four all starters from CL Clubs , all the starting line up are starters at big clubs in the Prem. Then there is key players from the Prem League winners in Vardy and Drinkwater 

The England squad has more ability in it that other teams that have progressed further - it has been poorly managed for a good number of years 

As for the youth - during the summer the England U21 won the Toulon Comp , the under 20's into the Semi's of their comp

Far too quickly people dismiss talented English players - have the reason is because fossil managers don't have a clue what to do with creative players like Rashford or Barkley , they are far too scared to let players express themselves - Sterling is a classic case , Pep arrives and rebuilds his shattered confidence and gets him showing the talent that made City pay Â£50 mil - goes to England and it's the same old same old - give him and players like Lallana , Barkely , Rashford etc the license to express themselves on a pitch. Tonight why when going away to play a team that was always going to sit deep did they play Dier as a sitting mid meaning Rooney dropping to halfway line to pick the ball up which then leaves Kane isolated again. They didn't need Dier - put Drinkwater alongside Barkley , they can control the game and let the guys in front be fluid , Walker is another issue at RB - he is quick and that's it , he can't go past people or cross the ball so why not bring in Clynne who can go past people 

It needs a brave bright fresh young manager to play the players properly and get the best out of their talents but for that it needs the FA to be brave as well and that's never going to happen 

There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at. 

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for 

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.
		
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Maybe, just maybe the common denominator isn't the poor selection of managers. But in fact the over privileged players? 

Most of our players aren't the stars of their teams. And if they are they still don't have much experience in the top tiers of continental football. 

Maybe, we spend to long lauding our players as stars when really it's their European teammates who make them look better. So, they get in into their heads that their superstars and can waltz through games. 

The he reason that lesser teams have out performed us is because they put a shift in, something our player seem to be unwilling to do of late. Think back to the likes of nice and butcher with blood all over their shirts. These players earned their places and their lifestyles and wages and progressed through teams. Now a young player would rather be on a bench earning their money than getting starts and progressing. 

Hunger is our biggest weakness, and the smaller nations players have more desire than ours and it clearly shows. They don't play better football, they don't generally have pundits praising their style, but their hunger and passion is 2nd to none.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 4, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Good start for Scotland, can't ask for much more than that.  It might only be Malta but those "only Malta" games have long been the ones we slip up in, so great to get off to a good start this time around.
		
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Yippee , now bring on the big boys [ Slovakia ] :rofl:


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Its clueless not realising how difficult it is to come on as a sub with 20 mins to go. Maybe some people just havent played the game before I dont know.
		
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Haha, pathetic. If it was sterling you'd be all over him. 
 They are footballers, off side in the 9th, or 90th is the same. 
walcott is an ok player, but his touch and finishing ability will always be hit and miss, not matter the time or team he plays for.


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2016)

Decent draw away to the Czech Republic. We could spring some surprises if we could just find goals in this team. Good teamwork is our thin and strong organisation. And good luck!


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## richy (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Its clueless not realising how difficult it is to come on as a sub with 20 mins to go. Maybe some people just havent played the game before I dont know.
		
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What difference does it make how long is left on the clock? He still shouldn't be almost missing the ball when it lands in front of him. 

He came on fresh against 10 men. He should've ran them down for his entire time on the field. The only problem. He couldn't trap a bag of cement let alone a bag filled with air. Hopeless!!


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



*Should've just stuck with Hodgson then*, the FA would've saved a load of dosh.

Sam will get time to try different tactics, I'd just like to see players in their natural positions.

Leicester won the league with good players, not world class or top top top top top top players. 

Greece won the euros with a squad who played a particular way and every single player knew their jobs.

Portugal won the it this year with a decent squad, not much better than England squad apart from Ronaldo. OK they had Ronaldo but he wasn't exactly on top form, he wasn't the main reason they won it.
		
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Maybe you're right.

Its not like we have done any better with previous managers either. Erikkson the man everyone said got us to 2 1/4 finals - sacked. Bring in McClaren with new ideas - sacked. Ok lets get a really top manager who has won everything Capello - sacked.  Lets get Hodgson who will get us playing again - sacked. 

Lets get someone this time that can get the best out average players , Allardyce  - ??????? Future to be decided.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Being able to control a football whilst on the run, being able to time a run to stay onside and hitting the target when presented with an opportunity would be a good starting point. 

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sawtooth said:



			Case in point.
		
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Missed tonight's game then?



richy said:



			What difference does it make how long is left on the clock? *He still shouldn't be almost missing the ball when it lands in front of him. *

He came on fresh against 10 men. He should've ran them down for his entire time on the field. The only problem. *He couldn't trap a bag of cement let alone a bag filled with air. Hopeless!!*

Click to expand...

Glad somebody else was watching the same game that I was.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Glad somebody else was watching the same game that I was.
		
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TBF you could've watched any game Walcott has played in the last 3 years and posted that &#128515;


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			Its clueless not realising how difficult it is to come on as a sub with 20 mins to go. Maybe some people just havent played the game before I dont know.
		
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If Walcott isn't good enough to be able to come on with 20 minutes to go in a match and make a difference by whatever means - by scoring a match winning goal or providing a cross for a match winning goal - then he simply shouldn't be in the squad.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

richy said:



			What difference does it make how long is left on the clock? He still shouldn't be almost missing the ball when it lands in front of him. 

He came on fresh against 10 men. He should've ran them down for his entire time on the field. The only problem. He couldn't trap a bag of cement let alone a bag filled with air. Hopeless!!
		
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I definitely agree that Walcott has very questionable skills as a "top" footballer but its a bit silly to single him out as being the worst player when he came on with 20 mins to go. For starters his confidence wont exactly be sky high and its sometimes hard to get up to the speed of play straight away after sitting on his arse.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2016)

Slime said:



			Spot on.

I actually enjoyed the game, especially seeing a manager with passion.
As for Rooney, too many people decided he played badly before the game had even started!
I actually thought he played well, but, as no-one ahead of him was showing any movement, he was left between a rock and a hard place.
That changed when Alli came on, thankfully.
*Henderson, Rose, Kane and Sterling were all very poor, but Walcott was just shocking.*
Lallana was excellent and I was so pleased for him when he scored.
Alli was also very good and must surely start in our next game.
When Slovakia had that thug sent off, nothing changed  ....................... they still played with ten men behind the ball  and did defend very well.
It's never easy trying to break down a team of ten defenders.
What England needed was someone with pace who is happy to run at defenders all day long.
I think we needed Rashford, oh, and Alli on from the start.
Happy for Lallane and happy for Big Sam.
		
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sawtooth said:



			I definitely agree that Walcott has very questionable skills as a "top" footballer but *its a bit silly to single him out as being the worst player when he came on with 20 mins to go. *For starters his confidence wont exactly be sky high and its sometimes hard to get up to the speed of play straight away after sitting on his arse.
		
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He's hardly being singled out as the worst player when the post to which you responded names 4 other players as very poor.

What's silly is blindly defending a player because he happens to play for your club, particularly when in the same post you admit his skills are very questionable as a top footballer.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 4, 2016)

I thought Henderson did OK, played a couple of nice balls in that had Kane, sterling and Rooney (i think)  had better 1st touches they'd have had a shot at goal.

He's no Gerrard  but he he's another that takes too much unfair criticism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			I thought Henderson did OK, played a couple of nice balls in that had Kane, sterling and Rooney (i think)  had better 1st touches they'd have had a shot at goal.

He's no Gerrard  but he he's another that takes too much unfair criticism.
		
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There were a few decent balls put through by a few players that on another day may have had a better outcome, in Hendersons defence, it looked to me like he didn't know were he was meant to play in the 1st half and hearing Sam afterwards saying Rooney can do what he likes was a way to deflect from any controversey, I don't think Rooney will continue to have that freedom, to me he left Dier and Henderson confused.


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## sawtooth (Sep 4, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			He's hardly being singled out as the worst player when the post to which you responded names 4 other players as very poor.

What's silly is blindly defending a player because he happens to play for your club, particularly when in the same post you admit his skills are very questionable as a top footballer.
		
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You're reading too much into it. I dont care who the player is or where he's from if you cant believe that then what can I do?

If we had lost tonight and I was Allardyce I would not be making my way to Walcott and Sturridge first to ask what went wrong.


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## Slime (Sep 4, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			He came on with 20 mins to go. Did you expect him to score a hatrick?
		
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No.
I did, however, expect him to be able to play football at a level above National League South!
The fact that only 20 mins were left is ridiculously irrelevant, Alli was up to speed immediately and was a constant thorn in the Slovakia's side.
Stop defending him .................. you're looking slightly foolish now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Rightly or wrongly Rashford is not starting at Man U and Barkley has only been a regular starter for three games, under Martinez he was in & out. 

As for the back four being at CL clubs just how many CL games have Walker, Stones & Rose played in their careers.

We can all suggest changes from within the squad, personally I would not have Henderson within 100 miles of an England side, but the fact remains the pool is very shallow. 

The Premier League started in 1992 and England have struggled ever since. The difficulties of the 1970's and 80's could be attributed to the post- Ramsey difficulties created by Revie and were not arrested until the appointment of Robson.

When the PL was launched it was claimed it would benefit the national team but nobody could ever claim this has been the case. Rather it has further divorced the club game from the internationals which would appear to satisfy most fans of the so called big clubs.

BTW bright young managers are not always the answer. Remember Brenda?
		
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You appear to have cut out the question I keep asking you 

Why if it's the fault of the Prem league do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level go further than England ? 

Had looking at England record does suggest it's the foriegn influence in Prem

WC 

Pre Prem 

1970 - Quarters
74 and 78 - DNQ
82 -2nd Rd
86 - Quarters
90 - Semi

Post Prem

94 - DNQ
98 - L16
02 - Quarters
04 - Quarters
08 -  L16
12 - Group Stage

Euro's 

Pre Prem

72 and 76 - DNQ
80 - Group
84 - DNQ
88 - Group

Post Prem

92 - Group
96 - Semi
00 - Group
04 - Quarters
08 - DNQ 
12 - Quarters
16 -L16

Do those performances scream out an issue since the Prem was started ?

You can see where the poor performances were and you can easily highlight the reason - the poor choice in manager


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You appear to have cut out the question I keep asking you 

Why if it's the fault of the Prem league do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level go further than England ? 

Had looking at England record does suggest it's the foriegn influence in Prem

WC 

Pre Prem 

1970 - Quarters
74 and 78 - DNQ
82 -2nd Rd
86 - Quarters
90 - Semi

Post Prem

94 - DNQ
98 - L16
02 - Quarters
04 - Quarters
08 -  L16
12 - Group Stage

Euro's 

Pre Prem

72 and 76 - DNQ
80 - Group
84 - DNQ
88 - Group

Post Prem

92 - Group
96 - Semi
00 - Group
04 - Quarters
08 - DNQ 
12 - Quarters
16 -L16

Do those performances scream out an issue since the Prem was started ?

You can see where the poor performances were and you can easily highlight the reason - the poor choice in manager
		
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Those figures show we've improved in both comps since the prem, pre prem we failed to qualify more, so getting out of our groups has improved, now we need to go to the next level.


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## richy (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You appear to have cut out the question I keep asking you 

Why if it's the fault of the Prem league do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level go further than England ?
		
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You're so concerned with getting your questions answered yet you just ignore other people's. 

Why don't you answer what was asked earlier?


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## richy (Sep 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Those figures show we've improved in both comps since the prem, pre prem we failed to qualify more, so getting out of our groups has improved, now we need to go to the next level.
		
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Is that not due to more teams being included so the standard is lower?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

richy said:



			Is that not due to more teams being included so the standard is lower?
		
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Could easily be that, or the PL has been a success, but it's like asking why Wales and Iceland did better than us in the Euros, as if they are the correct examples of the way to do things, Wales have only qualified once since 1958 for a Major Championship and Euro 16 was Icelands first.
Statistics can be used on both sides of a discussion&#128515;


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Could easily be that, or the PL has been a success, but it's like asking why Wales and Iceland did better than us in the Euros, as if they are the correct examples of the way to do things, Wales have only qualified once since 1958 for a Major Championship and Euro 16 was Icelands first.
Statistics can be used on both sides of a discussion&#62979;
		
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And can be interpreted differently.

For many years the Euros, rightly or wrongly, were not taken that seriously and everything was geared towards the World Cup. Googlephil's stats do not seem to support a claim that England's performance in the latter has been any better post '92 than before. (also overlooks our performance in '72 effectively being a quarter-final)

The Euros have, in recent times, been diluted by the inclusion of more teams and third place in a group sometimes being sufficient to qualify.

My point is that the PL, whilst being a marketing and,thus, a financial success, has hindered rather than helped the national team.

England managers have come and gone (some good, some bad) but all have had the same problem of a decreasing pool  of talent.

As a "spectating" nation we are at the top end but as "competitors" we are no more than mid-table, which is OK provided the public's expectations reflect this. After all a supporter of a mid-table Club will hope that his Club can break into the top six but is he being realistic if he expects, rather than hopes.


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## User62651 (Sep 5, 2016)

Did watch the whole game, wasn't an exciting game and frustrating, did look like more of the fare served up at the recent Euros, unsurprisingly. Not sure Sam can do much more really. Team seems a bit stifled, confidence issue maybe post Iceland game.

Saying that England will walk this group especially winning last night so there is time to improve and improve confidence, never rated Walcott personally, his only asset being speed, Sturridge ain't for me either. Also seems like you're missing a proper midfield boss who can pull the strings, these Tottenham boys are good but aren't in the same league as Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard were and Rooney in midfield is dubious imo, not convinced.

However you won on paper the toughest away game you'll get in this group, maybe a tad luckily as they played well beyond the extra time indicated but what did Slovakia offer? - Hart could have had a sleep, had nothing to do. A draw would have been an acceptable result imo but you did better than that so maybe just take it and move on and be happy.


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## sawtooth (Sep 5, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			Did watch the whole game, wasn't an exciting game and frustrating, did look like more of the fare served up at the recent Euros, unsurprisingly. Not sure Sam can do much more really. Team seems a bit stifled, confidence issue maybe post Iceland game.

Saying that England will walk this group especially winning last night so there is time to improve and improve confidence, never rated Walcott personally, his only asset being speed, Sturridge ain't for me either. Also seems like you're missing a proper midfield boss who can pull the strings, these Tottenham boys are good but aren't in the same league as Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard were and Rooney in midfield is dubious imo, not convinced.

However you won on paper the toughest away game you'll get in this group, maybe a tad luckily as they played well beyond the extra time indicated but what did Slovakia offer? - Hart could have had a sleep, had nothing to do. A draw would have been an acceptable result imo but you did better than that so maybe just take it and move on and be happy.
		
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It's early days so I'm not one to give Sam a kicking after just a week with the players. I will sit back and wait to how this team develops but I think that he may live to regret making Rooney captain because now he will be obliged to play him. He did OK last night but he is not a midfielder at this level. Scary that Allardyce said that he was brilliant , I just hope that was some kind of motivation technique.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			And can be interpreted differently.

For many years the Euros, rightly or wrongly, were not taken that seriously and everything was geared towards the World Cup. Googlephil's stats do not seem to support a claim that England's performance in the latter has been any better post '92 than before. (also overlooks our performance in '72 effectively being a quarter-final)

The Euros have, in recent times, been diluted by the inclusion of more teams and third place in a group sometimes being sufficient to qualify.

My point is that the PL, whilst being a marketing and,thus, a financial success, has hindered rather than helped the national team.

England managers have come and gone (some good, some bad) but all have had the same problem of a decreasing pool  of talent.

As a "spectating" nation we are at the top end but as "competitors" we are no more than mid-table, which is OK provided the public's expectations reflect this. After all a supporter of a mid-table Club will hope that his Club can break into the top six but is he being realistic if he expects, rather than hopes.
		
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I don't think the PL has hindered the National team, Children are attached to clubs at a much younger age, facilities at clubs are at a completely different level, financial incentives are at an all time high, our youth players are exposed to some of the worlds best players and coach's, all that talent is still there, we just need to bring it together, whether it's our expectations or the media, the facts are, is that we are still producing players of the highest level, but they are failing to produce when it really matters.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 5, 2016)

WC 

 Pre Prem 

 1970 - Quarters
 74 and 78 - DNQ
 82 -2nd  Rd
 86 - Quarters
 90 - Semi

 Post Prem

 94 - DNQ
 98 -  L16
 02 - Quarters
 04 - Quarters
 08 -  L16
 12 - Group  Stage

 Euro's 

 Pre Prem

 72 and 76 - DNQ
 80 -  Group
 84 - DNQ
 88 - Group

 Post Prem

 92 - Group
 96 -  Semi
 00 - Group
 04 - Quarters
 08 - DNQ 
 12 - Quarters
 16  -L16

Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?87233-World-Cup-Qualifiers/page4#Kzy1ErdxQHlYldWd.99

It would be interesting to see what the average wage of an England/club footballer was in these years.

A case could be made for the increase in wages/trophy birds/image rights/tattoos/diamond earings  and other footballer accoutrements, as they seem to think that once they have all 4 at the age of 19 - they are a "proven" footballer, and they lose their hunger.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			I don't think the PL has hindered the National team, Children are attached to clubs at a much younger age, facilities at clubs are at a completely different level, financial incentives are at an all time high, our youth players are exposed to some of the worlds best players and coach's, all that talent is still there, we just need to bring it together, whether it's our expectations or the media, the facts are, is that we are still producing players of the highest level, but they are failing to produce when it really matters.
		
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I wonder if you have had experience of the Academy system now dominating the youth development in England. It is claimed that it is breeding the players of the future and yet the Clubs themselves are reluctant to avail themselves of that talent.

Possibly because we are not producing players of the highest level. The level of football played by the young players at PL clubs fails to prepare them for progression and they are often not exposed to the world's best players and coaches as Clubs tend to operate separate training groups/sessions for their Development Squads away from their First Team.

Before they reach that stage most of those trawled by the Academies have already been released and of those that remain few, if any, make a breakthrough.

I appreciate that this is rather diverting from the OP but the Academy System really is not helping.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I wonder if you have had experience of the Academy system now dominating the youth development in England. It is claimed that it is breeding the players of the future and yet the Clubs themselves are reluctant to avail themselves of that talent.

Possibly because we are not producing players of the highest level. The level of football played by the young players at PL clubs fails to prepare them for progression and they are often not exposed to the world's best players and coaches as Clubs tend to operate separate training groups/sessions for their Development Squads away from their First Team.

Before they reach that stage most of those trawled by the Academies have already been released and of those that remain few, if any, make a breakthrough.

I appreciate that this is rather diverting from the OP but the Academy System really is not helping.
		
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The only exposure I've had to the Academy system is visiting Sunderlands and Readings over the past few years and taking an interest in Evertons, Everton have had a lot of involvement with Senior Players and Staff over the past few years and judging on the amount of youngsters we have produced it doesn't seem too bad, maybe not World Class but still one of the more succesful ones. If England are getting releative success at U19 and U21 level etc then somewhere along that pipeline it's working, maybe Liverbirdie has a point, too much too soon and the hunger wanes.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			The only exposure I've had to the Academy system is visiting Sunderlands and Readings over the past few years and taking an interest in Evertons, Everton have had a lot of involvement with Senior Players and Staff over the past few years and judging on the amount of youngsters we have produced it doesn't seem too bad, maybe not World Class but still one of the more succesful ones. If England are getting releative success at U19 and U21 level etc then somewhere along that pipeline it's working, maybe Liverbirdie has a point, too much too soon and the hunger wanes.
		
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I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid Â£500k - Â£750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid Â£500k - Â£750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".
		
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The hunger one is the issue. We/The English get slagged off for not showing or having the Pride in the flag that other Nations show or when we do we're accussed of arrogance, unfortunately only the players on the pitch can address that, hate hearing English people wanting their National Team in any sport to fail, that's beyond me.
We definitely need to stop the culture of some players almost guaranteed their squad place, even after only 3 games into the season Sam didn't go on form, Vardy and Drinkwater have started the season far better than others yet niether got on the pitch, if no player feels safe, maybe their hunger will increase.


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## One Planer (Sep 5, 2016)

Just reading on the Beeb website, Big Sam saying he can't tell Rooney where to play!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37271746

Am I missing something here or is that not quite a significant part of his function as manager of the team?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid Â£500k - Â£750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".
		
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Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making 

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer 

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp 

England have the talent available to progress 

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England - 

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps 

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager 

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers 

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing 

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up 

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing 

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making 

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer 

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp 

England have the talent available to progress 

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England - 

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps 

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager 

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers 

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing 

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up 

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing 

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together
		
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So were are all these youth players in the Clubs or do they lose all their ability at age 22, if we all had to pick a 23 man squad I reckon most of us would have at least the same 15, and why do these managers qualify with ease then mess up at the finals?
These smaller nations are having a ride of a lifetime, they're not outdoing us year after year.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making 

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer 

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp 

England have the talent available to progress 

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England - 

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps 

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager 

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers 

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing 

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up 

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing 

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together
		
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How many of those young talented stars will actually go on to play for england? Unlike a lot of nations, we very rarely send all the available players. The players in the u21 still have the hunger as they arent "stars" or at big clubs. PLayers like Stones, and barkely for example were young enoug to play in the u21 last summer but got it off as they were part of the main squad. Its that entitlement that ruins their attitude.

Look at the recent germany and spain sides and how many caps their stars got at u21 level, then look at ours. We put them straight in after a 6month purple patch and then they nver step back down to get used to tournament pressure.

The managers arent the sole reason we fail. There are too many causes and blaming just the manager is simplistic.


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## Robobum (Sep 5, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			How many of those young talented stars will actually go on to play for england? Unlike a lot of nations, we very rarely send all the available players. The players in the u21 still have the hunger as they arent "stars" or at big clubs. PLayers like Stones, and barkely for example were young enoug to play in the u21 last summer but got it off as they were part of the main squad. Its that entitlement that ruins their attitude.

Look at the recent germany and spain sides and how many caps their stars got at u21 level, then look at ours. We put them straight in after a 6month purple patch and then they nver step back down to get used to tournament pressure.

The managers arent the sole reason we fail. There are too many causes and blaming just the manager is simplistic.
		
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Stuart Pearce is a massive advocate of players staying in age group and gaining tournament experience.

The FA have never picked the wrong man for the job. In their opinion, and given any limitations on availability at the time of appointment, they appointment the best available person. Many will disagree with that choice, but they aren't tasked with appointing. 

It's a sad game that people play, slagging off someone before they've even started the job! The bar is set pretty low, so let's sit back and give Sam (no prefix) a go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			So were are all these youth players in the Clubs or do they lose all their ability at age 22, if we all had to pick a 23 man squad I reckon most of us would have at least the same 15, and why do these managers qualify with ease then mess up at the finals?
These smaller nations are having a ride of a lifetime, they're not outdoing us year after year.
		
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The players are still there and around playing in the leagues but the career path just stops after under 21 

One of things the Germans do is give their youngsters tournament experience when one comes around 

Last year there was an U21 comp - all the players that could go from the main squad should have gone - Sterling , Kane , Shaw , Stones etc all should have gone - it gives them exposure to the summer tournament where the pressure isn't on so much - it's something Klinsmann started with the Germany set up 

Instead England save them for some meaningless friendly and keep them around the main squad and suggest they need a break - the players are good enough but they need to be able to learn in summer tournaments - you can't do that during a WC or a Euro's 

Erikson is continuely slagged off for failing yet for three summer tournaments in a row he got England into quarter finals and was penalty shoot out away from semi's - he achieved what should be the level for England. 

When they go "Mid table English" - ( Taylor , McClaren, Hodgson ) they either fail to qualify or play not to lose in the tournament and freeze and just flop horribly. They fail to even inspire some heart or desire or passion into the players ( think this is at least where it will be different with Allardyce ) 

I would put money on a manager like Loew for example getting England to a semi final at the next Summer tournament 

And one accusation I keep reading is the suggestion that English people wanting England to fail - not once seen it suggested unless from someone from Scotland


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making 

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer 

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp 

England have the talent available to progress 

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England - 

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps 

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager 

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers 

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing 

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up 

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing 

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together
		
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The Toulon tournament is hardly the strongest (and is for U20's). However, just look at the players who represented England and see how few of them are appearing regularly in the PL.

As for other countries e.g. Wales, Iceland etc; these are one-offs, what happened to Denmark and Greece after their Euro successes.

In this country our expectations are unrealistic. To regularly achieve quarter finals at World Cups we would have to be one of the eight best teams in the world and we are not.

You can continue your vendetta against Hodgson & Allardyce as long as you like but the truth is that even great managers need good players and England does not produce enough good international players to consistently compete with the best.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The players are still there and around playing in the leagues but the career path just stops after under 21 

One of things the Germans do is give their youngsters tournament experience when one comes around 

Last year there was an U21 comp - all the players that could go from the main squad should have gone - Sterling , Kane , Shaw , Stones etc all should have gone - it gives them exposure to the summer tournament where the pressure isn't on so much - it's something Klinsmann started with the Germany set up 

Instead England save them for some meaningless friendly and keep them around the main squad and suggest they need a break - the players are good enough but they need to be able to learn in summer tournaments - you can't do that during a WC or a Euro's 

Erikson is continuely slagged off for failing yet for three summer tournaments in a row he got England into quarter finals and was penalty shoot out away from semi's - he achieved what should be the level for England. 

When they go "Mid table English" - ( Taylor , McClaren, Hodgson ) they either fail to qualify or play not to lose in the tournament and freeze and just flop horribly. They fail to even inspire some heart or desire or passion into the players ( think this is at least where it will be different with Allardyce ) 

I would put money on a manager like Loew for example getting England to a semi final at the next Summer tournament 

And one accusation I keep reading is the suggestion that English people wanting England to fail - not once seen it suggested unless from someone from Scotland
		
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The policy with the youth is not down to the manager, he'll only pick what he believes is his best squad.

Like I've posted previously, Sam would not be my first choice, but he's now the manager and should be given 100% support until results prove him to be the wrong man.

You may not be saying directly you want England to lose, but you do come across very negative at times towards the National team and that can be interpreted (maybe wrongly) that England losing proves your point.

We also have that strong Scouse Not English contingent present in your club side and they do post on social media how they like to see England lose.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 5, 2016)

It's ok banging on about getting the right man. 
But who is the right man?


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2016)

God, this thread is a bore fest already. Same old same olds zzzzZZZZzzzz


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Very odd watching Croatia v Turkey with no crowd in attendance. Does anyone know if they can choose any ground when ordered to play behind closed doors or do they have to play in the National Stadium?


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			It's ok banging on about getting the right man. 
But who is the right man?
		
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Coleman .

Problem with England in the last twenty years + is rather than put a number of players together that can play as a team England pick a bunch of reasonably good individuals and expect them to play as a team. Anyone who has been involved in team selection know that's not how it works. Sam's made a complete fool of himself with his statement on Rooney, he's there to manage and come up with a strategy not to chuck 11 players on the park and tell them to crack on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Coleman .

Problem with England in the last twenty years + is rather than put a number of players together that can play as a team England pick a bunch of reasonably good individuals and expect them to play as a team. Anyone who has been involved in team selection know that's not how it works. Sam's made a complete fool of himself with his statement on Rooney, he's there to manage and come up with a strategy not to chuck 11 players on the park and tell them to crack on.
		
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Were 3 games into the season, Sam had 4 full days with them after he'd selected a squad based on 2 games and he got a result.
Why not give him a chance rather than judge him immediately, he might just do exactly what you've put.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2016)

Not sure what how many games they are into the season really has to do with it, as the Wales game shows. Most have played a bit of football before.


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 5, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			It's ok banging on about getting the right man. 
But who is the right man?
		
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That's fine,I just wanted to know from the experts who this "right man for the job" is.
It's ok to keep saying it,but who is this worldie manager that the FA should have appointed?


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2016)

Mark Sampson - damn another Taff.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure what how many games they are into the season really has to do with it, as the Wales game shows. Most have played a bit of football before.
		
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He has to be given time to see what players will suit the systems he wants to play and he's had virtually no chance of seeing how these players are performing, he's learning all the time, Wales have got continuity and Coleman was on the verge of quitting after he became the first Welsh manager to lose his first 5 games.
They also lost to England so don't really get your point about Wales as an example, if you mean they are 3-0 up tonight, they are at home to a team ranked 165 in the world some 150 places below them.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2016)

My point is that Wales have performed way above their station using on the whole football journeymen. England didn't seem to have a plan to deal with 10 men in a team ranked 11 places below them. Unfortunately the manager picks the team which will always mean that the fans blame the manager. How many games do you feel is a reasonable number before he is judged even though he continues to pick the same team as those who failed before.

The FA with the last couple of England managers stated that they were putting in younger No's 2 so that they would be in a position to provided continuity and step in as mangers then go off on a completely different tangent.


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## bladeplayer (Sep 5, 2016)

Shocking penalty decisions in Scotland , Wales & Ireland games , whats going on with referees


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			My point is that Wales have performed way above their station using on the whole football journeymen. England didn't seem to have a plan to deal with 10 men in a team ranked 11 places below them. Unfortunately the manager picks the team which will always mean that the fans blame the manager. How many games do you feel is a reasonable number before he is judged even though he continues to pick the same team as those who failed before.

The FA with the last couple of England managers stated that they were putting in younger No's 2 so that they would be in a position to provided continuity and step in as mangers then go off on a completely different tangent.
		
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Wales have done superb, but it took time for Coleman to get the right blend of ability, attitude and the motivation for the players to buy into it.
Sam might be the best or worst manager we've had, he'll be judged on how England perform in Major Tournaments, we supposedly beat the next hardest team in our group so if we believe the hype we won't really be able to judge him until Russia 2018.
I would suggest that if both Wales and England both qualify for Russia, Coleman will get more credit than Sam despite Wales being ahead of us in the rankings.


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## sawtooth (Sep 5, 2016)

Pin-seeker said:



			That's fine,I just wanted to know from the experts who this "right man for the job" is.
It's ok to keep saying it,but who is this worldie manager that the FA should have appointed?
		
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I would have liked to have seen Hoddle given another chance but Allardyce might be the man we just don't know yet.

It's interesting that some people think it's all the managers fault and some people blame the standard of players. It's probably a bit of both. Certainly our players aren't as good as we think they are.  We've been bang average for 50 years and we are falling further behind it seems. 

If it wasn't for the home grown rule how many English players would we have in the EPL then? Even fewer than we have today.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 6, 2016)

Coleman was very close to walking away from Wales as he did t think he was good enough but found a way, found the squad he wanted and who bought into his ideas. I haven't had the same feeling of that with England since Venables. 

This Rooney thing is a case in point and he's clearly not following team orders and the managers playing style and using being captain to hide behind. Of course Sam is being the perfect England PR manager saying he doesn't have a problem but if it was me, behind closed doors I'd be making Rooney very clear that if he doesn't toe the line, there's no place guaranteed captain or not. Get England playing with a game plan and hopefully it will get better


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## sawtooth (Sep 6, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Coleman was very close to walking away from Wales as he did t think he was good enough but found a way, found the squad he wanted and who bought into his ideas. I haven't had the same feeling of that with England since Venables. 

This Rooney thing is a case in point and he's clearly not following team orders and the managers playing style and using being captain to hide behind. Of course Sam is being the perfect England PR manager saying he doesn't have a problem but if it was me, behind closed doors I'd be making Rooney very clear that if he doesn't toe the line, there's no place guaranteed captain or not. Get England playing with a game plan and hopefully it will get better
		
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I think It must be some man managemnt guff as well. I can't believe Allardyce is happy with Rooney dictating to him where and how he is going to play.

Unless Allardyce is scared all of a sudden of upsetting his players? It would be a first but then again he hasn't managed England before. I prefer to think that Rooney and others will be getting the hairdryer treatment or simply dropped if they fall out of line. 

In any case saying publicly  I can't tell Rooney where to play' was a bit silly and has done him no favours it seems.

Again will have to wait to see how things go maybe Allardyce is a genius when we look back at this in years to come?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2016)

I am continually amazed by the succession of England managers who seem to be in awe of Rooney and give him such an easy ride.  He was good in one major tournament for us over 10 years ago and since then he has been average at best for England. To me he is a squad player, if he's playing well then yes he can be a great addition to the team.  But if he is not then please don't try and accommodate him in midfield where he causes the team to be unbalanced and then tell us he bossed the midfield Sam. As he didn't, we all saw that with our eyes.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am continually amazed by the succession of England managers who seem to be in awe of Rooney and give him such an easy ride.  He was good in one major tournament for us over 10 years ago and since then he has been average at best for England. To me he is a squad player, if he's playing well then yes he can be a great addition to the team.  But if he is not then please don't try and accommodate him in midfield where he causes the team to be unbalanced and then tell us he bossed the midfield Sam. As he didn't, we all saw that with our eyes.
		
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Whilst he's not the player he once was, and I'm not sure that player was a great. 

He he is still our leading scorer, as we as the player who tends to score most of our goals qualifying. Whilst he may not be a midfielder. His absence up front is clear to see. We've looked toothless with all our apparent superstars up front.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Whilst he's not the player he once was, and I'm not sure that player was a great. 

He he is still our leading scorer, as we as the player who tends to score most of our goals qualifying. Whilst he may not be a midfielder. His absence up front is clear to see. We've looked toothless with all our apparent superstars up front.
		
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Yes I know he is the leading goal scorer but he never does it when it matters in major finals. The attackers can only score if they have good service and a coherent structure behind them to supply them with the chances. And having someone who seems to roam where he likes, often dropping further and further back as a luxury player, occasionally trying the Hollywood pass which look great when they work but not so good when they do not and we give up possession, to me isn't the way to create chances.

Cruising through qualifying and then performing poorly at major tournaments when we play any half decent team, instead of the cannon fodder we get due to the fixed seeding process in qualfiying, is getting a bit boring.  And the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes I know he is the leading goal scorer but he never does it when it matters in major finals. The attackers can only score if they have good service and a coherent structure behind them to supply them with the chances. And having someone who seems to roam where he likes, often dropping further and further back as a luxury player, occasionally trying the Hollywood pass which look great when they work but not so good when they do not and we give up possession, to me isn't the way to create chances.

Cruising through qualifying and then performing poorly at major tournaments when we play any half decent team, instead of the cannon fodder we get due to the fixed seeding process in qualfiying, is getting a bit boring.  And the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
		
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I belive it's the definition of insanity &#128512;

Didnt pirlo play the same role you describe of Rooney? And NO I'm not comparing em lol. 

I think Roo eye has always been the easy target. Our 4 games at the euros were effectively fa cup third round ties. We all know how tough they are. In all of them we missed sitters early doors. If they have gone in then things likely would have been different. Rooney hasn't performed at tournaments, can't argue with that, but I genuinely can't r,ember him missing the sitters the Kane, sterling, Vardy and sturridge did. 

Think this his qualifiers will show us if someone is ready to step up. I still think it'll be Rashford. He just seems fearless, Vardy needs to be playing on the counter, sturridge can't be built around and Kane seems to have suffered from the fallout of Spurs collapse last season.


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## sawtooth (Sep 7, 2016)

The problem I see is that England will set up not too lose rather than to go all out for a win. Could make for some boring stuff.

I know it's only one game in but he plays Henderson and Dier and leaves Wilshere and Barclay out of the squad. We need a bit more creativity in midfield but not sure Rooney is the answer. One striker upfront as well even when Slovakia went down to 10 men. Its not like we were playing Germany or Spain.

Think we need to be a bit more adventurous and hopefully that will come.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			The problem I see is that England will set up not too lose rather than to go all out for a win. Could make for some boring stuff.

I know it's only one game in but he plays Henderson and Dier and leaves Wilshere and Barclay out of the squad. We need a bit more creativity in midfield but not sure Rooney is the answer. One striker upfront as well even when Slovakia went down to 10 men. Its not like we were playing Germany or Spain.

Think we need to be a bit more adventurous and hopefully that will come.
		
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I think Barkely will get his chance. Allardyce isn't afraid to play ball players. I think 4 days of having the players together he had to just get the job done. I wouldn't have wilshere anywhere near the team unless he plays 25 games minimum for bmouth. No point getting all excited about a game plan involving him once in a while. 

Nothing wrong with dier either, most successful (trophy winners) have a ball winner.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			I belive it's the definition of insanity &#128512;

Didnt pirlo play the same role you describe of Rooney? And NO I'm not comparing em lol. 

I think Roo eye has always been the easy target. Our 4 games at the euros were effectively fa cup third round ties. We all know how tough they are. In all of them we missed sitters early doors. If they have gone in then things likely would have been different. Rooney hasn't performed at tournaments, can't argue with that, but I genuinely can't r,ember him missing the sitters the Kane, sterling, Vardy and sturridge did. 

Think this his qualifiers will show us if someone is ready to step up. I still think it'll be Rashford. He just seems fearless, Vardy needs to be playing on the counter, sturridge can't be built around and Kane seems to have suffered from the fallout of Spurs collapse last season.
		
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It doesn't matter who steps up if we don't create the chances for them, I laugh when people criticize Rooney (not aimed at you) for not turning up at tournaments, I always thought there was another 10 English players along side him who also failed to turn up.
As someone put, it's like we go out not to concede rather than go out to win.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 7, 2016)

The problem is that Rooney teased us all those years ago. He showed that he could take a tournament by the scruff and be a star. Unfortunately that has never been repeated. Other top players have gone to tournaments and done well, even in poor teams, but Rooney has not done it since that very first one. Had he been ordinary he would not be commented upon but he showed promise of being world class and we all hoped it would continue. Unfortunately it didn't happen.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			It doesn't matter who steps up if we don't create the chances for them,* I laugh when people criticize Rooney (not aimed at you) for not turning up at tournaments, I always thought there was another 10 English players along side him who also failed to turn up.*
As someone put, it's like we go out not to concede rather than go out to win.
		
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There are, and their position should also be questioned.  And not be allowed a seemingly roaming role to wander around the pitch at their leisure, disrupting the structure of the team on the off chance they recreate some magic they showed over a decade ago at international level.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			There are, and their position should also be questioned.  And not be allowed a seemingly roaming role to wander around the pitch at their leisure, disrupting the structure of the team on the off chance they recreate some magic they showed over a decade ago at international level.
		
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yes but Rooney hasn't only shown promise a decade ago. Granted he hasn't lit other tournaments up. But if in recent times we'd no even picked him for qualifying, we may very well have not got there in the first place. 

Being allowed we'd to roam is down to the manager to stop. But, as commented earlier, when the midfield lacks creativity, for England and man Utd he goes I search of the ball.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			There are, and their position should also be questioned.  And not be allowed a seemingly roaming role to wander around the pitch at their leisure, disrupting the structure of the team on the off chance they recreate some magic they showed over a decade ago at international level.
		
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Still think that was Sam playing politics.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			yes but Rooney hasn't only shown promise a decade ago. Granted he hasn't lit other tournaments up. But if in recent times we'd no even picked him for qualifying, we may very well have not got there in the first place.
		
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IMO it's nonsense to suggest that we might not have qualified without Rooney in the team. Have you looked at the teams that Rooney has scored against in qualifying? Against San Marino, Liechenstein, Andorra, Estonia etc you could have played me or even Emile Heskey up front and England would still have won the games.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			IMO it's nonsense to suggest that we might not have qualified without Rooney in the team. Have you looked at the teams that Rooney has scored against in qualifying? Against San Marino, Liechenstein, Andorra, Estonia etc you could have played me or even Emile Heskey up front and England would still have won the games.
		
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Remind me of the footballing giants we played in the euros.........

So whilst I agree it unlikely we would have failed. I think it's nonsense to lay all the blame at him when we have 22 other players at tournaments....


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## Stuart_C (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			IMO it's nonsense to suggest that we might not have qualified without Rooney in the team. Have you looked at the teams that Rooney has scored against in qualifying? Against San Marino, Liechenstein, Andorra, Estonia etc you could have played me or even Emile Heskey up front and England would still have won the games.
		
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I agreed with you until Emile Heskey :rofl:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2016)

Stuart_C said:



			I agreed with you until Emile Heskey :rofl:
		
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Flattered that you think I'd be a better bet than Heskey. I'm sure you'd change your mind if we ever met and you saw the state of me.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Flattered that you think I'd be a better bet than Heskey. I'm sure you'd change your mind if we ever met and you saw the state of me.
		
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Pic you're mobile enough to play golf, I'd still fancy your chances.....


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## Stuart_C (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Flattered that you think I'd be a better bet than Heskey. I'm sure you'd change your mind if we ever met and you saw the state of me.
		
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I watched Heskey 1st hand over a few seasons, about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Remind me of the footballing giants we played in the euros.........

So whilst I agree it unlikely we would have failed. I think it's nonsense to lay all the blame at him when we have 22 other players at tournaments....
		
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Remind me how this fabulous footballer Rooney got on against the non footballing giants we faced at the Euros? That kind of emphasises my point. Rooney fails to turn up and put in the performances at major tournaments when we really need him to.

I'm not laying all the blame with him, we failed as a team and as a manager, but he's been feted as a truly world class star and he just hasn't done enough to justify it. There's no doubt he's a very good player but that's as far as it goes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 7, 2016)

The test of any top player, certainly world class, is whether you would choose that player in a select 11 based on players from top nations or from a tournament. The only England player that I can think of in recent years that would make such a team is Ashley Cole. Rooney certainly wouldn't.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Remind me how this fabulous footballer Rooney got on against the non footballing giants we faced at the Euros? That kind of emphasises my point. Rooney fails to turn up and put in the performances at major tournaments when we really need him to.

I'm not laying all the blame with him, we failed as a team and as a manager, but he's been feted as a truly world class star and he just hasn't done enough to justify it. There's no doubt he's a very good player but that's as far as it goes.
		
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he played in midfield, so it was down to our up and coming strike force to score the goals this time. He played as well as any other in midfield. Other than the shambles against Iceland. 

It seems to me, some blame Rooney for not scoring when up front in previous tournaments, and now blaming him for not getting half a dozen assists in this one........

the little nations you mentioned from our qualifiers, we brushed them aside easily with him upfront. We scraped by last week with him in midfield. Whilst I don't believe he should play midfield. I still think he offers as much as any of our other strikers..


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## Papas1982 (Sep 7, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The test of any top player, certainly world class, is whether you would choose that player in a select 11 based on players from top nations or from a tournament. The only England player that I can think of in recent years that would make such a team is Ashley Cole. Rooney certainly wouldn't.
		
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I agree re Cole. The only defender I saw regular handle both Messi and Ronaldo. 

I don't think many would say Rooney is world class, but he's still easily been our best striker for a generation (at least). 

Id id also have Ferdinand and terry under consideration too. Although maybe not for as prolonged a period as Cole.


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## Golfmmad (Sep 7, 2016)

Sam Allardyces comment re. not telling Rooney where to play was taken out of context. He actually meant that he trusted him to play where, (Rooney) thought it best for the team. Simple as that, giving players responsibility, not just Rooney. Don't judge him on only one game - which we won, give him a chance.

I certainly think that Rooney's best position is as a striker, even leading the line, still, - no one holds the ball up as well as he does, and of course scores goals. He may well have lost a bit of pace but not his class. Cast your mind back to the qualifiers, when Rooney scored - one touch, at pace, then smashed it in leaving the keeper no chance. In the same game, Rashford, who I think is our best prospect, had a similar opportunity to score on the left side but fluffed his chance - he's not there just yet. 

Even the younger strikers - Kane, Vardy, Sterling and Sturridge did not step up to the plate at the Euros.
We may have fared better had Rooney played up front with Rashford instead of Stirling and Barkley instead of Henderson. Who knows.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Remind me how this fabulous footballer Rooney got on against the non footballing giants we faced at the Euros? That kind of emphasises my point. Rooney fails to turn up and put in the performances at major tournaments when we really need him to.

I'm not laying all the blame with him, we failed as a team and as a manager, but he's been feted as a truly world class star and he just hasn't done enough to justify it. There's no doubt he's a very good player but that's as far as it goes.
		
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He's been Englands main goal scorer for 13 years and nobody else has stepped up and dislodged him, as for him not turning up he's 3rd in English list behind Shearer and Lineker and ahead of people like Hurst and Charlton for goals scored at tournaments.
Whether he is World Class or not that's down to opinions, he might be lucky or unlucky again depending on opinion that he's been our main man during a generation that has promised so much and never achieved.


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## sawtooth (Sep 8, 2016)

I think its a sad state of affairs that our best choice creative midfielder is a past striker. Either keep Rooney as a striker or don't play him.  The experiment hasn't worked, It might be OK against Malta, Estonia, Azerbaijan , etc but not when it comes to playing anyone any good.As it was proven in the Euros.

I accept that Allardyce may have played it safe against Slovakia in his first game in charge but I really hope that team is not a sign of things to come.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 8, 2016)

sawtooth said:



			I think its a sad state of affairs that our best choice creative midfielder is a past striker. Either keep Rooney as a striker or don't play him.  The experiment hasn't worked, It might be OK against Malta, Estonia, Azerbaijan , etc but not when it comes to playing anyone any good.As it was proven in the Euros.

I accept that Allardyce may have played it safe against Slovakia in his first game in charge but I really hope that team is not a sign of things to come.
		
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He'd be OK as a sub, Vardy to lead the line unless Kane finds some form.


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## Kellfire (Sep 8, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			but he's been feted as a truly world class star and he just hasn't done enough to justify it. There's no doubt he's a very good player but that's as far as it goes.
		
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Internationally, maybe. But he was definitely world class for Man Utd for a good many years.


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## Liverbirdie (Sep 8, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			He's been Englands main goal scorer for 13 years and nobody else has stepped up and dislodged him, as for him not turning up he's 3rd in English list behind Shearer and Lineker and ahead of people like Hurst and Charlton for goals scored at tournaments.
Whether he is World Class or not that's down to opinions, he might be lucky or unlucky again depending on opinion that he's been our main man during a generation that has promised so much and never achieved.
		
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I think Rooney was a massive part of the way Man U played for years, when they were at their height.

Sometimes he would stay up top, sometimes he would come and forage for the ball (when man u were in possession).  

He turned the massive pitch at man U, into little 5-a-side pitches, normally dominating possession as they would overload the opposition in terms of numbers in a small space. This takes an amount of intelligence. Ok, one year it looked like Fergie told him to stay on the forward line and then season he was sensational, but I think the rest of the team lost a bit of something in their style.

I personally think he is struggling a little up front, but I think he is still good enough and mobile enough to play in the midfield, for England or Man u.


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